New TiVo Interactive ads launch.

[dylanemcgregor]

I thought I would start a new thread with the Press Releae in the first post, so that when the masses start coming here complaining, at least they will have the official statement from TiVo right at the top.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050718/sfm008.html?.v=14

ALVISO, Calif., July 18 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO - News), the creator and leader in advertising solutions and television services for digital video recorders (DVRs), today launched its next generation interactive advertising technology solution with advertising campaigns from General Motors and The WB Television Network, two of the world's foremost brands.

The new features build on the history of innovative advertising solutions developed by TiVo and integrate client feedback received over the past three years. These features include:

-- Enabling advertisers to insert a customized call to action or branded
"tag" in their commercial, replacing the generic ad tags previously
used by TiVo's advertising clients;
-- Ensuring advertisers' traditional TV spots will be more visible in TiVo
homes, whether viewed in normal play or fast forward mode;
-- Enhance the TiVo customer's experience by allowing them to select the
tag and "telescope" from the traditional 30-second ad while pausing
their program to view long-form content, requests for information, or
recording opportunities which will enhance the viewing experience;
-- Providing advertisers with the ability to receive leads directly from
their TV spots, with the viewer's consent, so advertisers can track
leads to conversion and ensure a qualified return on investment;
-- Additional data for advertisers to gain a better understanding of the
effectiveness of TiVo's proprietary tagging feature, the strength of
their creative executions, and the efficacy of their television media
buying strategy.

TiVo's new advertising technology is designed so that TiVo subscribers retain control over their viewing experience, while giving advertisers new tools to engage interested consumers.

David Courtney, Executive Vice President, CFO, and head of TiVo's media and advertising services business, commented, "TiVo's proprietary advertising technology presents a real opportunity for advertisers to enhance the effectiveness of traditional television advertising. Our platform enables advertisers to reach an attractive demographic. Launching with established advertising partners like GM and The WB Network is a validation of TiVo's success and leadership in the interactive advertising space. We are pleased that these corporations have been working with TiVo for so long and are the first advertisers to capitalize on this new feature set."

As part of this announcement, General Motors, the world's largest automaker and a long-time TiVo advertiser, will extend its partnership with TiVo and will be the first car manufacturer to use TiVo's new customized tags for its OnStar, GMC, Chevrolet, and Saturn brands. Using TiVo's new tagging technology, viewers will be able to instantly access additional promotional footage and request information directly from GM.

GM's General Director, Advertising and Media Operations, Betsy Lazar said, "Having worked on various interactive advertising campaigns with TiVo over a number of years, we have had great success. We look forward to our potential customers having the ability to learn about our product in more detail than ever before. This is a step forward in allowing consumers to shop and discover the GM portfolio of products in a revolutionary new way."

In addition, The WB Television Network will be TiVo's first television network partner to utilize the new TiVo custom record tags. The network will use the new technology in conjunction with promotional spots for upcoming WB shows. By pressing the green thumbs-up button on their TiVo remote, viewers will be able to record a single episode or the show's full season on their TiVo.

The WB Television Network's Co-President of Marketing, Lew Goldstein, said, "Our viewers are younger and eagerly adapt themselves to new technologies. TiVo's advertising technology gives them added convenience and greater flexibility when deciding what content they would like to record. It also gives us the opportunity to remind our audience when to tune in to catch their favorite WB shows."

"With our partners' feedback, we have worked continuously to develop a leading ad platform that is relevant and exciting for TiVo subscribers and at the same time makes it valuable for advertisers," said Courtney. "The advertising industry is ever-changing, and TiVo is uniquely positioned to lead the industry by continuing our history of innovation."

According to Mr. Courtney, "Companies today are spending an estimated $60 billion a year on broadcast advertising. Ours is the only DVR to effectively enhance traditional TV advertising via a branding and direct response platform. Existing TiVo advertisers are already well ahead of the competition, learning about what type of content consumers will voluntarily view, how their traditional television media is consumed in a DVR home and what types of interactive advertising features can enhance their advertising messages as the technology develops."

TiVo's partnerships with service providers such as Comcast and DIRECTV, along with its loyal customers, provide a solid platform for advertisers to reach television viewers.

Comcast, the nation's largest cable television provider, announced earlier in the quarter that it would deploy TiVo's innovative advertising platform on Comcast's existing DVRs beginning next year. In addition, TiVo announced the signing of a new services agreement with DIRECTV, extending the companies' prior services agreement.

[filburt1]

I will be the first of what I believe will be more than one post that I would consider cancelling my TiVo service if they start pushing ads, no matter how subtle, during recorded content. Is there any likely way to forcibly opt-out of such advertisements, whether it be complaining to a CSR or other official means?

[TiVoBill]

These enhanced advertising features were added back in January 2005. The press release and related stories today are about the first large users of that technology. We have an article on our support site (http://customersupport.tivo.com/knowbase/root/public/tv2187.htm) that answers some questions that customers might have.

[morac]

Point number 2 sounds basically like the "pop up" ads that TiVo was testing (hopefully they got the kinks worked out). Everything else sounds like exactly what we have today (showcase) except that it gives more control (to an extent) and more feedback to advertisers.

The only thing as far as the users are concerned is the billboard ads. So if you hate the billboards ads you'll hate this. If you don't care or like the billboard ads then you won't care about this.

[d_anders]

General Motors and The WB Television Network, two of the world's foremost brands

Calling the WB Television Network a leading world brand is a bit of a stretch. But, giving that it's a news release and it's a customer of Tivo's, it's understandable posturing...

I have no problem with this type of advertising. If I like something, a tv show, or a given product, I like the idea of "opting" with my "thumbs up" so that I get more information or wish to schedule a corresponding recording. Otherwise, I'll just ignore what doesn't have relevance for me, just as I do today...

If the process turns out to be detrimental to the TiVo/DVR experience, then I'll certainly make my voice heard.

[dylanemcgregor]

Point number 2 sounds basically like the "pop up" ads that TiVo was testing (hopefully they got the kinks worked out). Everything else sounds like exactly what we have today (showcase) except that it gives more control (to an extent) and more feedback to advertisers.

The only thing as far as the users are concerned is the billboard ads. So if you hate the billboards ads you'll hate this. If you don't care or like the billboard ads then you won't care about this.

Exactly, I am pretty sure this is just the widespread rollout of the ads that they tested a couple of months back for The Negotiator. I too hope that the bugs are worked out, and I hope they took notice of some of the customer feedback and have made it so the ad does not appear smack dab in the middle of the screen. Other than those two things, I have no problem at all with these type of ads, and in fact I think they might be pretty cool. OMMV.

I am without TV for a couple of more months so I will not be able to see these first hand for awhile, but I would like to hear from people who do see them.

Dylan

[dylanemcgregor]

I thought I would copy and paste the text of the FAQ from The TiVo website here for people who do not follow the link. Hope that is OK.

TiVo recently announced some new interactive features. These features will allow customers to access video and Showcase content by pressing the THUMBS UP or SELECT button on their remote when a customized icon (ad) is displayed during a commercial. Clicking the button on the remote will take the customer to a Showcase, a scheduling screen, or a short video. There are some important things to keep in mind:

* You are always in charge. You can decide which ads interest you and respond by pressing the THUMBS UP or SELECT button on your remote.

* Some of these icons may allow you to request more information about a product or company. You will always be asked to confirm any such request, and will be asked to agree to share contact information with that company. TiVo never shares your information with other companies unless you specifically request it. More information about our privacy policy can be found at www.tivo.com/privacy.

* You can still skip the commercials in the same way that TiVo allows you to do now. There is no additional delay and you are not forced to watch ads.

* You can still see the video in the background when fast-forwarding or rewinding. The new icons only cover a small portion of the screen and are only visible for a commercial that is branded to display one. Pressing CLEAR on your remote will make the icon disappear.

Note: These customized icons that appear when you use Fast Forward or Rewind are part of the TiVo service and cannot be removed.

[TechDreamer]

Tivo is so lost.

Customers are wondering if Tivo is ever going to fix the broken software update (Pixellation) and this is the junk we get.

Tivo is now the new "Real Audio".

[MattDing]

Here we go again.

There goes Coffe House for the next month. :rolleyes:

This is not new. We've been there, done that.

I think this bears repeating: If you like your TiVo, then things that are good for TiVo, Inc. are good for you.

[tbone526]

I don't think this is that big a deal. We still maintain control and can FF through commercials just like we do now. But if something catches your eye, it makes it even easier to get more info.

I did a survey on this site not long ago, and a LOT of people still at least scan the commercials and stop if something interests them.

We're GAINING functionality, not losing it. It's not like we'er being tied to the couch and forced to watch commercials. (Although if you're tied to your couch, commercials are probably not foremost in your mind).

[manielse]

GAINING functionality would be to fully distibute HME on all Series 2 boxes.

I really don't care about the advertising, I'll ignore it like I ignore ads on webpages...

[hiker]

Will this apply to the series 1 Directv TiVo and the HD Directv TiVo or just stand-alone TiVo?
I read the support page and it does not mention.

[SoBelle0]

If you like your TiVo, then things that are good for TiVo, Inc. are good for you.
Well said Matt.

From my reading, today and in the past, TiVo has made several decisions in an effort to make it beneficial to the customer (us) and the bottom line (TiVo & advertisers). So while it's not going to make everyone happy - what would? - I think the majority of people will surely be able to figure out how to make it work for them.

[dylanemcgregor]

GAINING functionality would be to fully distibute HME on all Series 2 boxes.

Should be coming sometime this summer to the DVD burner models, according to TiVoBill (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=2815501#post2815501).

Dylan

[manielse]

Sometime this summer would be good, end of year...bad.

[jwreiner]

I really don't care much about the ads, and I think I understand why TiVo has implemented them. But TiVo and I definitely have different goals, and they are in conflict as least as much as they are in harmony. If TiVo could make larger profits by doubling their fees, they would (if, for example, the competitive environment they faced shifted or they had patents on DVR technology that locked out all competition)

This would not be good for us. It would be very good for their shareholders.

Here we go again.

There goes Coffe House for the next month. :rolleyes:

This is not new. We've been there, done that.

I think this bears repeating: If you like your TiVo, then things that are good for TiVo, Inc. are good for you.

[TiVoBill]

Sometime this summer would be good, end of year...bad.

Still on schedule for this summer.

[manielse]

I love hearing news like that, thanks Bill. It just kills me to run both HMO and HME apps that do the same thing.....

[HDTiVo]

TiVoBill:

Is there any reason a programmer could not use this technology to implement some interactivity into its actual content? For a examples: a news program with a link to more detail on a story; a TV show with an alternate ending.

Thanks.

[Vrodaire]

I'm new here, and fairly new to TiVo. But here's what I see, and what I fear:

TiVo's leaning towards advertisers $'s, which symmetrically leans away from what I like most about TiVo. (I'm not forced to watch commercials yet, but it's continually getting closer) When I initially found out that owning a TiVo allowed me to watch what I wanted, when I wanted, and nothing else, I tried it (and when I found out just how good it was, I bought a 2nd unit for my office).

But I fear the campaigns and statements a few are already making, that we should feel the 'emperor is or will be wearing better, grander clothes!' when he isn't: So many are already saying "If it's good for TiVo, it's good for us!" (that's simply not true, as someone else pointed out). [personally I don't see this as good for TiVo either, but I won't claim to know that's a fact]

I saw this in a press release:

"Advertising is a substantial growth area," Sterling said. "It is not a material revenue for us yet relative to our overall revenue picture."

TiVo says TV advertisers, facing dwindling TV audiences, are anxious for new ways to reach TV watchers and insists that viewers like to watch its special ads -- despite the fact that the ability to skip commercials is one of the chief reasons that consumers buy DVRs.

Viewers do NOT like to watch ads in general -- someone can start a poll if they like, but all the people I'm talking to are really frustrated, and fearful that the device they 'all know and luv' is about to morph into something noticably different. [we're the ones totally devoted and convincing everyone we can to get one] I'm not sure what's going on financially for the company, but if TiVo ends up with a competitor that leans more towards me than advertisers money; I'll have to watch.

Anyone else hating commercials seen in theaters now, only because they HAVE to watch them to see the movie? We don't go to movies to see commercials, and we don't buy TiVo's to see commercials -- maybe I'm just fanatical about this, but if there was a machine that automatically forwarded past commercials, I'd be interested. I'd just rather stay with TiVo who leapt out to do things right and succeeded... than leap with someone else who might be headed off a cliff.

There is that tired old cliche' "If the horse aint broke, don't fix it". I want the old horse, and I don't want to change it: Watch what I want, when I want. Please; don't head down the path that ties me back into the chair to watch what advertisers $ decree. TiVo gave us freedom, let us keep it as well.

If you're wondering what I see for TiVo as a company, I see them taking more money for advertising, and catering to it, which loses them customers, and if taken too far, will lose so many customers that advertisers won't be that interested. So then, they'll have nothing. At that point they might blame wishy-washy, unloyal customers -- I imagine both customers and the company will feel 'let down'.

[TiVoBill]

TiVoBill:

Is there any reason a programmer could not use this technology to implement some interactivity into its actual content? For a examples: a news program with a link to more detail on a story; a TV show with an alternate ending.

Thanks.

I don't know of any plans to offer that feature, but I'm sure it would be possible in the future.

[Moebius]

TiVoBill:

Is there any reason a programmer could not use this technology to implement some interactivity into its actual content? For a examples: a news program with a link to more detail on a story; a TV show with an alternate ending.

Thanks.

RoboCop or Starship Troopers anyone?


"Would you like to know more?"

Truth be told, I like the idea... there's alot of potential there.

[tbone526]

Please note that TiVo has stated:

* You can still skip the commercials in the same way that TiVo allows you to do now. There is no additional delay and you are not forced to watch ads.

That tells me that we can still FF, and those of you with 30 sec skip enabled can still use that. TiVo knows it's out there (since they put it in), and I'm sure they know that disabling it would truly cause a revolt.

RoboCop or Starship Troopers anyone?


"Would you like to know more?"

Truth be told, I like the idea... there's alot of potential there.

I -KNEW- I had seen this idea in a movie, but couldn't remember which one.

What I like about this idea is that with the right delivery system, I don't think it would be that difficult to implement. The incremental costs of having the information would be almost nil, since a reporter might spend hours on a story that gets reduced to a 45 second clip on the nightly news. A lot of information does NOT get presented, but could be made available if we were able to select the option for it.

This is the same as advertisers reducing all their info to a 30 or 60 second commercial spot, but having a LOT more information they'd like to pass on. If a product catches your eye, such as a new car or a new gadget, I think it's great to be able to ask for more detailed info simply by pressing the thumbs-up.

[RoyK]

Here's Forbe's take on it


NEW YORK -

Missing the point? Digital video recording company TiVo (nasdaq: TIVO - news - people ) made its name by offering TV viewers two unprecedented options: instant replay and freedom from irksome commercials. The service thrilled couch potatoes but gave sleepless nights to advertisers--not to mention the network broadcasters they help support. Now, TiVo has announced a plan sure to please sponsors. How its subscribers react is another matter. Led by Vice Chairman, President and Chief Executive Tom Rogers, the company said it will insert symbols that signify specific advertisers and products during breaks--rendering them harder to overlook when a viewer skips through them. According to an Associated Press report, viewers who actually are interested in learning more about said sponsor can pause the show to download a so-called "long-format" ad or get more data about the product.
TiVo will launch the new campaign with ads for General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) and the WB Network, a broadcast arm of Time Warner (nyse: TWX - news - people ). The AP quoted TiVo Chief Financial Officer David Courtney as declaring, "TiVo's proprietary advertising technology presents a real opportunity for advertisers to enhance the effectiveness of traditional television advertising." Perhaps. But let's hope the new plan will not become too intrusive: Now that other firms are delving into DVR technology, TiVo customers may not only skip the ads...but skip TiVo.

[RoyK]

Update to Forbes article above:
http://www.forbes.com/associatedpress/feeds/ap/2005/07/18/ap2143488.html

copied below

Associated Press
Update 1: TiVo Wants You to Watch Commercials
07.18.2005, 12:22 PM

Digital video-recording company TiVo Inc., famous for helping customers skip commercials on their favorite television programs, is taking steps to encourage viewers to watch them.

TiVo, based in Alviso, Calif., has announced plans to insert symbols that identify advertisers during commercial breaks, making them more visible even when a customer is fast forwarding through them.

The ID tags are designed to alert TiVo customers to certain products. If customers are interested in learning more, they can pause the show they are watching to receive a "long-format" commercial or obtain information about the product. The new campaign will be launched with General Motors and The WB Network commercials.

"TiVo's proprietary advertising technology presents a real opportunity for advertisers to enhance the effectiveness of traditional television advertising," said TiVo chief financial officer David Courtney.

But encouraging TiVo customers to download ads could be a tough sell, analysts have predicted. People subscribe to TiVo's service, which allows customers to make video recordings of their favorite TV shows, precisely to avoid commercials.

The new commercial strategy is the latest attempt by TiVo to generate ad revenue for the company, which has yet to turn a profit since its founding in 1997.

Despite the company's loyal following of 3.3 million subscribers, TiVo has labored to increase its subscriber base. In its first-quarter report in May, TiVo reported a loss of $857,000. The company has said it would reach profitability in the fourth quarter.

[manielse]

TiVoBill:

Is there any reason a programmer could not use this technology to implement some interactivity into its actual content? For a examples: a news program with a link to more detail on a story; a TV show with an alternate ending.

Thanks.

WOW, a real use for this feature! If I recall, I think that was what WebTV was suppose to be. Get more info on the things that you are watching.

Advertising is a nessesary evil and I think this will still be better than watching 3 minutes of commercials. I haven't seen this feature yet on my TiVos but I'd have to imagine that it's better than XM radio's annoying adds or dj's on their "commercial-free" network.

I don't mind advertising for things I care about but I'm a strong believer of ME searching for it rather than THEM pushing it. I think this is why I'm more acceptable to direct mail and newspaper ads than TV and Radio ads. I can let my eye wander to the ad and look deeper at it if I choose. To TiVo's defense, this *might* be my way of wandering a TV ad (though I doubt it). There have been times I've been fast farwarding and then rewind when I saw a commercial of interest and I'm sure that all of us have done that.

As long as TiVo doesn't ruin my experience, I'm ok with it. Now when the Series 3's come out, I might take this into consideration versus other options though.

[macattackman]

I think TiVo is now fighting the perception that they are anti-consumer, just look at the headline:

TiVo Wants You To Watch Commercials

Granted, 30 second skip will still zoom right over these but to Joe consumer, what does he see? Commercials through TiVo, why not go with my cable companies DVR?

In fact, I just switched to my cable companies DVR because it offered HD and then I dumped my SD TiVo and am now using Microsoft Media Center. I don't miss the TiVo interface that much [it has begun to seem a bit dated to me anyway]

It seems to me that TiVo and Microsoft are in the same spot: trying to appease *both* the content providers AND the consumer -- this is a no win situation [so, why did I go with MCE, another story for a followup post]

I'd like to see TiVo add some functionality I could actually use:


-Two-way TiVo To Go: I have a terrabyte of storage at home, why can't I offload content from my TiVo to storage and then upload it *back* to my TiVo when I want to watch it?

-Editing built in to TiVo: I want to step through a video I have, hit thumbs up and set a mark for begin delete and then hit thumbs down and set an end mark, then hit enter and I delete that segment from my recording -- why do I need 20% or so of my recordings devoted to commercials I *never* watch

-HD [though I'm in a distinct minority and I suppose I am in all 3 of these points but I think most TiVo adopters are geeky in some sense]



Here we go again.

There goes Coffe House for the next month. :rolleyes:

This is not new. We've been there, done that.

I think this bears repeating: If you like your TiVo, then things that are good for TiVo, Inc. are good for you.

[bmgoodman]

The ads first came out early this year, but a glitch forced them to make them transparent so as to not cover the shows themselves. I have not followed this since, nor have I noticed any of these so-called billboards. I am reserving judgment until I ACTUALLY SEE ONE. If it isn't intrusive, there are some ads where I would actually click to see extended versions--like when I'm looking to buy a new car.

In any event, it is interesting that about the time Tivo is rolling out these new ads (for GM etc.) they have a glitch where Home Media / Tivo To Go goes missing. Coincidence? Or do we have a case where inserting these new ads actually broke some working Tivo code? :eek:

[dgh]

I think TiVo is now fighting the perception that they are anti-consumer, just look at the headline:

TiVo Wants You To Watch Commercials

"Now"? There were TiVo headlines at least as good as those in the 90s. Each time TiVo does something that it has always said it would do, people treat it as major news.

[macattackman]

Yeah but in the 90s could you get a DVR from your cable company?

My cable company started pushing DVRs about 2 years ago (but then again, I live in the sticks).

"Now"? There were TiVo headlines at least as good as those in the 90s. Each time TiVo does something that it has always said it would do, people treat it as major news.

[dgh]

Yeah but in the 90s could you get a DVR from your cable company?

My cable company started pushing DVRs about 2 years ago (but then again, I live in the sticks).

Well I'm pretty sure there was a bad headline or two in 2003 as well.

[dgh]

maybe I'm just fanatical about this, but if there was a machine that automatically forwarded past commercials, I'd be interested. I'd just rather stay with TiVo who leapt out to do things right and succeeded... than leap with someone else who might be headed off a cliff.

Were you intentionally or unintentionally describing ReplayTV/SonicBlue? :D

There is that tired old cliche' "If the horse aint broke, don't fix it". I want the old horse, and I don't want to change it:

Yeah but that old horse (are you sure you're not mixing your metaphors?) has lost money every year since the company was founded. They've always planned ads, and been open about that, but because of slow growth, it has taken a while to get big enough to be interesting to the advertisers. If you really dislike ads that much, you should have chosen a different company. This one is trying to work with commercial TV, not against it.

[ZeoTiVo]

ALL I know is , if they don't get a Victoria's Secret billboard ad up before long I am cancelling my TiVo service and throwing them all in the garbage just to be sure I loose a lot of money over nothing. :rolleyes:

[HDTiVo]

I don't know of any plans to offer that feature, but I'm sure it would be possible in the future.

With a little tinkering and imagination, this could extend a basic TV show into a DVD-ish program with all sorts of extended features. This could be offered as an industry standard for "tiny" license fee to other DVRs. Done right, those tiny fees could add up alot; and video content delivery to the home could be revolutionized by extending the value-add that the programers provide.

[dgh]

ALL I know is , if they don't get a Victoria's Secret billboard ad up before long I am cancelling my TiVo service and throwing them all in the garbage just to be sure I loose a lot of money over nothing. :rolleyes:

You might be disappointed. Those commercials are among the least likely to need a banner to get your attention. :D

[SullyND]

Exactly, I am pretty sure this is just the widespread rollout of the ads that they tested a couple of months back for The Negotiator.

Was I the only one rooting for that movie to flop because of the ads?

I don't think it will be that big of a deal, and if it does change my user experience I will have to consider my options then. But in the mean time, I will go out of my way to not support any advertiser who makes use of this feature, just like I do SPAM, Junk Mail, and unsolicited telephone calls.

[ccwf]

WOW, a real use for this feature! If I recall, I think that was what WebTV was suppose to be. Get more info on the things that you are watching. Since some shows are marked "Intercast" in the guide data, I'm guessing this functionality still exists and is occasionally used.

[RoyK]

Great! Now my grandkids can click an ad and send MY personal info to advertisers! I want a way to opt out of that - permanently! Or better yet opt in (opting out should be the default)


Roy
==============================================
From the NY Times

TiVo, the maker of digital video recorders, introduced a feature yesterday that lets television viewers send personal information directly to advertisers when they see certain commercials.

TiVo, whose equipment allows TV commercials to be skipped, will now give advertisers direct access to viewers who are interested in their products. The company said the upgrade would let about a million of its subscribers instantly respond to specially encoded advertising.

TiVo said that the changes would not affect the way users normally view shows and skip ads, and that viewers would not be forced to watch any ads they chose to ignore.

Under the new system, consumers can select an option to tell TiVo to release their contact information to an advertiser. For example, after watching an ad for an automobile or family vacation, users can use the remote control to request that a brochure be sent to their home.

"Advertising is a substantial growth area," said Kimber Sterling, director of advertising and research sales at TiVo. "It is not a material revenue for us yet, relative to our overall revenue picture."

Many consumers purchase DVR's hoping to avoid commercials. But TiVo said many users choose to watch long-form commercials, typically about cars or Hollywood films, after they are downloaded to TiVo set-top boxes.

Mr. Sterling said that for a typical long-form commercial on TiVo's service, 5 percent to 15 percent of users choose to view the ad.

[ccwf]

Great! Now my grandkids can click an ad and send MY personal info to advertisers! I want a way to opt out of that - permanently! Or better yet opt in (opting out should be the default) How is this different from the existing feature already used by car advertisers in the past, where you could click on the iPreview (thumbs up when you see the thumb over a commercial), sending your personal info to the advertiser in exchange for something from the advertiser?

[HDTiVo]

How is this different from the existing feature already used by car advertisers in the past, where you could click on the iPreview (thumbs up when you see the thumb over a commercial), sending your personal info to the advertiser in exchange for something from the advertiser?

The difference is this prompted this person to think of a serious security issue which I can't recall anyone else ever thinking of in all the discussions to date.

[akaye]

Here we go again.

. . .

I think this bears repeating: If you like your TiVo, then things that are good for TiVo, Inc. are good for you.

Not true by a long shot. Within reason, certainly, if we want Tivo to continue, we need to allow them to make money, but if they CHANGE what it is we like to sometheng we DON'T like, then we will move to a different DVR service and Tivo will justifiably perish. Not saying that that's what will happen because of this issue...I'm not even clear on what this issue is, but it doesn't sound too bad...I just don't agree with your statement in principle.

AK

[RoyK]

How is this different from the existing feature already used by car advertisers in the past, where you could click on the iPreview (thumbs up when you see the thumb over a commercial), sending your personal info to the advertiser in exchange for something from the advertiser?


HDTivo was correct. I have not personally run into this 'feature'. Had I done so I would have raised the issue at that time. Loudly!

[akaye]

I'm not even clear on what this issue is,

And I mean it...what is this about? Is this just the Thumbs Up icon that appears over commercials? I don't mind that at all. I've even clicked it once or twice.

AK

[ccwf]

The difference is this prompted this person to think of a serious security issue which I can't recall anyone else ever thinking of in all the discussions to date. I agree with RoyK's concern. Requring the parental lock password would be a good safeguard, for example. (I think when it was used in the past, it wasn't just one click and away goes your personal info. I think pressing thumbs up took you to some menus where you had to confirm you really wanted to do that.)

I have no beef with RoyK. Rather, my annoyance is with Reuters for reporting this as new and with the New York Times for printing that without checking it.

[filburt1]

How is this different from the existing feature already used by car advertisers in the past, where you could click on the iPreview (thumbs up when you see the thumb over a commercial), sending your personal info to the advertiser in exchange for something from the advertiser?
IPreview icons are not representative of the content--that is, they appear the same for every IPreview-enabled segment. They do not directly display advertised content but simply offer a shortcut to recording a show. These new ads will instead directly display advertiser content in what sounds like a static box. Even fast-forwarding at 60x like I do (I gave up on 30-second skip after too many forward jumps), they will still annoy me.

I bought TiVo specifically so I could avoid advertisements, and now I'm going to have to pay $12.95 to see them. I realize others won't be bothered by them and of course, that's their opinion, but anything that distracts me from content annoys me to no end.

I just hope (and luckily, now know) that TiVo officials are monitoring this thread and taking suggestions. The least they could do is offer a relatively difficult way of opting out of these advertisements such as faxing or mailing them a form requesting as such.

[ccwf]

I think when it was used in the past, it wasn't just one click and away goes your personal info. I think pressing thumbs up took you to some menus where you had to confirm you really wanted to do that. There's one for Saturn in this morning's Tour de France coverage.

You need to press thumbs up when the iPreview thumbs up icon appears, then select that you want to request that you want more info from the menu that appears, and then confirm that request.

So, it's complicated enough that a very young child wouldn't send the personal info by accident, but it certainly wouldn't stop a grade schooler who didn't know any better.

[SoBelle0]

I saw one this morning - or at least something different than the normal IPreview. It was on a commercial for Saturn and I wish I had a screen print...

it had the Thumbs Up and basic info like the little IPreview icon, but just below it was a static box that had the Saturn tagline and I think the name of the vehicle being shown on the commercial. It was smaller than a post-it in the upper left corner of my screen. I was FFing past and was able to read what it was, decide I do not need a new car, and continue FFing until Matt came back on-screen.

It was not intrusive and had no major effect on my life, nor my ability to use my TiVo normally. Just wanted to share.


**guess I took too long typing! Thanks ccwf. :)

[akaye]

I bought TiVo specifically so I could avoid advertisements, and now I'm going to have to pay $12.95 to see them. I realize others won't be bothered by them and of course, that's their opinion, but anything that distracts me from content annoys me to no end.

I sympathize, but don't you think it's unreasonable to expect to watch commercial television entirely without commercials? Our $12.95 doesn't pay for the cost of producing the shows, after all.

I personally think that, as Star Trek TNG once predicted, TV as we know it will not survive much past this century, and I'm very OK with that. If you'd like to help speed that along, you should look into one the open-source PC-based DVRs, that the sponsers who pay for the shows we watch have no influence with whatsoever.

AK

"If we don't watch the commericals, it's like stealing television" - Homer Simpson

[MattDing]

Not true by a long shot. Within reason, certainly, if we want Tivo to continue, we need to allow them to make money, but if they CHANGE what it is we like to sometheng we DON'T like, then we will move to a different DVR service and Tivo will justifiably perish. Not saying that that's what will happen because of this issue...I'm not even clear on what this issue is, but it doesn't sound too bad...I just don't agree with your statement in principle.

AK
Well, of course my statement was a sweeping generality, but I do think it's pretty spot on. I believe that our positions are actually rather close on this issue. I'm coming from the side that TiVo would not do something to fundamentally change what we like into what we don't like. For them, that would be corporate suicide. So I'm making the assumption in my statement that TiVo will do what it needs to do to stay viable while still preserving it's "TiVo-ness" and that people who love their TiVo will accept that because it's the cost of keeping the service.

That being said, there are plenty of people out there with their own vision of what TiVo is. They'll take offense to the change or elimination of certain things: iPreview, 30 second skip, etc. They will rant and rave that seeing no advertisements is their God given right. But the majority of people with TiVo service will accept the changes TiVo needs to make in order to continue providing the service.

[akaye]

I'm coming from the side that TiVo would not do something to fundamentally change what we like into what we don't like. For them, that would be corporate suicide. So I'm making the assumption in my statement that TiVo will do what it needs to do to stay viable while still preserving it's "TiVo-ness" and that people who love their TiVo will accept that because it's the cost of keeping the service.



I'd like to agree, and Tivo has indeed done right by us so far, but I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said "the price of quality television is eternal viglilance."

Once bitten, twice shy:
Spike TV ran bug ads over Star Trek that cover a full third of the screen with sound effects and special effects. Who'd have thought any broadcaster would stoop to that? So they loose my eyeballs forever. I'd rather buy or rent the DVDs.


You have faith that corporations won't do stupid, self-destructive things in the interest of short term profits. I believe that as more selfish, undiciplined children of Baby-Boomers with over-blown senses of entitlement take over the executive offices, they will do just that.

AK

[pjhartman]

If the advertisers are going to be sending items to me by direct mail, then I'll probably hit the button to request as much promotional advertising material as possible. My local landfill needs the business, and it'll cost the advertisers real money to send something to me.

[dgh]

If the advertisers are going to be sending items to me by direct mail, then I'll probably hit the button to request as much promotional advertising material as possible. My local landfill needs the business, and it'll cost the advertisers real money to send something to me.

In comparison to the old untargeted direct mailed ads that went to millions of people and hoped for a response of .01%, this will still be a huge improvement for them. (Unless you can convince 100% of the people to do this and make it just as bad as untargeted advertising.)

[Y-ASK]

I sympathize, but don't you think it's unreasonable to expect to watch commercial television entirely without commercials? Our $12.95 doesn't pay for the cost of producing the shows, after all.

NO! I don't... I pay enough in a monthly fee for the video content that I view plus a bunch of totally useless channels I have no desire to watch. You give me the option to pay for indiviual channels with no commericals and I'm there. Tivo's fee is for guide data, use of their device, and software upgrades. What? Do you think that any of the advertising money Tivo collects is given to the producers of the shows? Get Real!

And so what if this has been covered before it's still a bunch of BS from Tivo. So what if news articles treat it as new. I bet it's News to some people...

I don't like forced advertisement in any way, shape, or form.

Y-ASK

[dgh]

So what if news articles treat it as new. I bet it's News to some people...

NASA reports: Earth may not be the center of the universe. Tune into our special report at 10PM.

[Y-ASK]

NASA reports: Earth may not be the center of the universe. Tune into our special report at 10PM.
My point exactly! There's probably some tribe of two foot tall humaniods on an unexplored island out there that has not heard that bit of information. Smart Ass :D

[ZeoTiVo]

HDTivo was correct. I have not personally run into this 'feature'. Had I done so I would have raised the issue at that time. Loudly!


nope sorry - the passing info to the advertiser was in the very first statements about billboard ads and always listed as one of the "features"

and you can already do it with some of the showcases that have gone by. It asks first with a clear message that info is being sent. USe parental controls on the TiVo if you can not keep the kids from doing something you do not want them to do and then write to people if the send personal info ever shows up during a kid commercial on something like Barney. It never should, just like internet sites ask very limited info once you tell them you are under 13.

A feature request you can make is that parental controls should have a setting for sending infpo and put up the password prompt at any instance of sending info. easy security hole to fix.

[ZeoTiVo]

NO! I don't... I pay enough in a monthly fee for the video content that I view plus a bunch of totally useless channels I have no desire to watch. You give me the option to pay for indiviual channels with no commericals and I'm there. Tivo's fee is for guide data, use of their device, and software upgrades. What? Do you think that any of the advertising money Tivo collects is given to the producers of the shows? Get Real!

And so what if this has been covered before it's still a bunch of BS from Tivo. So what if news articles treat it as new. I bet it's News to some people...

I don't like forced advertisement in any way, shape, or form.

Y-ASK

then sell your TiVo unsubscribe from cable or sat and rent DVDs. or else stop bitching constantly about being forced to watch ads :rolleyes:

[RoyK]

If the advertisers are going to be sending items to me by direct mail, then I'll probably hit the button to request as much promotional advertising material as possible. My local landfill needs the business, and it'll cost the advertisers real money to send something to me.

And cleaning the spam from your email box (your email address is also sent) I expect.

The personal data no doubt is sent to the ad agency hired by the sponsor. Ad agencies are notorious for selling names and personal data from responses they get to ads. They are especially valuable....

[dgh]

My point exactly! There's probably some tribe of two foot tall humaniods on an unexplored island out there that has not heard that bit of information. Smart Ass :D

And the rest of me too :D

Well that's all well and good, but since TiVo has not yet come to the island of the two foot tall humanoids, I think those of us on the TiVo forum and call this old news and get on to something more current.

For example: I heard that there's a way of capturing images so they can be watched later. Is this true? And if so, what are the technical, legal and ethical ramifications of this new technology?

[Y-ASK]

then sell your TiVo unsubscribe from cable or sat and rent DVDs. or else stop bitching constantly about being forced to watch ads :rolleyes:
Thanks for the advice. I'll take it under consideration :rolleyes:

Oh, so now you're the forum police? I'm not entitiled to have an opinion? I'm not allowed to voice that opinion over and over when the topic of forced advertisements comes up over and over, yet you're free to voice your support every time the subject comes up? What kind of double standard BS world do you live in?

For the record, just because I don't like forced advertisements doesn't mean I don't like my Tivo.

Y-ASK

[RoyK]

then sell your TiVo unsubscribe from cable or sat and rent DVDs. or else stop bitching constantly about being forced to watch ads :rolleyes:

The man is entitled to express his opinion, even if its right. BTW have you watched many commercial free DVDs lately?

[gonzotek]

Thanks for the advice. I'll take it under consideration :rolleyes:

Oh, so now you're the forum police? I'm not entitiled to have an opinion? I'm not allowed to voice that opinion over and over when the topic of forced advertisements comes up over and over, yet you're free to voice your support every time the subject comes up? What kind of double standard BS world do you live in?

For the record, just because I don't like forced advertisements doesn't mean I don't like my Tivo.

Y-ASK
Can I ask for a clarification? What qualifies as a "forced advertisement" for you? Because I don't feel "forced" by any of the advertising present on a TiVo box, including these new ones we're discussing today. To further clear up what I consider forced advertising, I feel that the promotions that run at the beginning of theater movies and (for example) Disney DVDs are forced, in that I cannot override the dvd's playback of these (unless I am using special hardware that ignores the dvd spec that says playback can't be interrupted) or in the case of theaters, I could get up during that time the ads are running, but I would be risking missing the beginning of the movie if I do.

[Y-ASK]

Can I ask for a clarification? What qualifies as a "forced advertisement" for you?
Only my opinion, and if it's ok with Zeo :) , Forced Advertisement would be anything on my screen that I must view. Examples would be the Yellow Star on the main Tivo menu which would lead me to advertisements and, with the words attached to the Yellow Stars, are advertisements themselves. Popup Icons as we see with this old (some would say new but for Dave H. it's old news) implementation of Tivo's new Ad campaign. If it's forced on you through no choice of your own (other than the purchase of a Tivo) that is what I would call "Forced Advertisements". I know you can find advertisements all over this world but I don't like them. All I can do is put up with them and voice my opinion on the subject, if allowed ;) . I really don't think I should have to put up with them from Tivo because I pay for the subscription.

Y-ASK

[RoyK]

nope sorry -
........

A feature request you can make is that parental controls should have a setting for sending infpo and put up the password prompt at any instance of sending info. easy security hole to fix.

The feature request I want is being able to set an option in my personal info database entry at TiVo to refuse permission to send my personal info to ANYONE without my express WRITTEN permission.

[gonzotek]

Only my opinion, and if it's ok with Zeo :) , Forced Advertisement would be anything on my screen that I must view. Examples would be the Yellow Star on the main Tivo menu which would lead me to advertisements and, with the words attached to the Yellow Stars, are advertisements themselves. Popup Icons as we see with this old (some would say new but for Dave H. it's old news) implementation of Tivo's new Ad campaign. If it's forced on you through no choice of your own (other than the purchase of a Tivo) that is what I would call "Forced Advertisements". I know you can find advertisements all over this world but I don't like them. All I can do is put up with them and voice my opinion on the subject, if allowed ;) . I really don't think I should have to put up with them from Tivo because I pay for the subscription.

Y-ASKYou don't like them on TiVo because you pay for a subscription. That I can understand, to a degree. Would you be willing to pay more to avoid them? If the cost to avoid them were too great, would be be willing to tolerate them as they are if your cost was the same as today? What if you could get the service for free, but there were forced interstitials before and after every recorded program you view? I'm not trying to make a specific point, or force any opinion on anyone, I'm more looking for a dialogue as to how people feel about various alternatives.

[akaye]

I'm not entitiled to have an opinion?

Of course you are. If you choose to state that opinion on a public discussion forum, then everybody else is also entiled to state their opinion of your opinion.

If you'd like to be able to state your opinion and not have it challenged, you'll need to buy some forced advertising time on a TV show.

Fact of the matter is, your monthly fee to your cable/sat provider and to Tivo combined is NOT enough to produce the content, not by a long shot. The advertisers who's messeges Tivo is helping stay visible are the SPONSERS of the content. That means THEY PAY FOR IT IN EXCHANGE FOR PUTTING OUT THEIR MESSAGE. That's just how it works right now, and your opinion of what money pays for what doesn't change it.

Now, ad bugs that obscure and distract fom the content, un-skippable commercials on DVDs that I paid for, and, worst of all (ARRGH!), commericials in movie theaters...THAT's worth fighting about. Having to see a short blip for General Motors between acts of Battlestar Galactica? I just can't get too upset about that yet.

AK

[dgh]

If it's forced on you through no choice of your own (other than the purchase of a Tivo)

:D :D :D

Not to mention Now Playing, Pick Programs to Record, and other things that you are forced to see on your screen of you make a forced purchase of a TiVo.

This is a forced post. :)

[Y-ASK]

I'm more looking for a dialogue as to how people feel about various alternatives.

I would like to see a pay as you go fee from my cable or sat provider. If I don't ever watch the WB and I don't want to pay for that crap then I shouldn't have to. I would be willing to pay a little more if the channel offered commerical free viewing but no more than $5-$8 per channel each month. I might even be willing to deal with advertisements at the start or the end of a show but not in the middle. I don't think Tivo or any paid DVR/guide data provider should be in the business of Forced Advertisements. That's not what I'm paying for.

The only reason I make such a big deal of this is the fact that I pay Tivo a monthly or lifetime fee for TV that is suppose to be "my way". I'm sorry but "Forced Advertisements", as I see them, is not "TV my way". It's "TV Tivo's way"

Y-ASK

[Y-ASK]

:D :D :D

Not to mention Now Playing, Pick Programs to Record, and other things that you are forced to see on your screen of you make a forced purchase of a TiVo.

This is a forced post. :)
Oh, BS Dave and you know it! I know you're trying to be funny but there was no such crap on my Tivo when I made my first purchase. I'm sorry for being such a terrible consumer that I didn't read every last bit of Lawyer written crap before I made my purchase. If I had I might have opted to try my own homebrew before I got hooked on the Tivo interface. It's just the best, in my opinion. Oh and you might what to re-word that last part of what you wrote, it really doesn't make much sense ("of you make"?).

Y-ASk

[akaye]

You don't like them on TiVo because you pay for a subscription. That I can understand, to a degree. Would you be willing to pay more to avoid them? If the cost to avoid them were too great, would be be willing to tolerate them as they are if your cost was the same as today? What if you could get the service for free, but there were forced interstitials before and after every recorded program you view? I'm not trying to make a specific point, or force any opinion on anyone, I'm more looking for a dialogue as to how people feel about various alternatives.

Good questions. I'm curious to see answers to this as well. Here's my own take:

I'm ok with commercial TV as long as the ads don't distract from the content and the content is high quality. If I was forced to pay my fair share of content production cost in lieu of ads, I'd do a lot more reading and playing guitar, and would learn to do with out TV.

Here my longer answers:

Commerical television has been getting more commercial and less television over my life time. Hour long shows in the '80 were several minutes longer on content and shorter on ads than they are today. Eventually that model may not be sustainable, but for now, I'm happy letting Coke and GM pay to produce good shows.

Cable and Sat companies charge a lot to deliver that content. Until that changes, or until they push too far, I like TV enough to pay their prices. (I'd like the idea I just saw posted above of choosing channels a la carte...I'd rather pay $25/month for the 5 channels I watch than $65/month for the 5 channels I watch and 300 I don't.)

For movies, raising ticket prices, and raising popcorn prices then showing ads to a captive audience on TOP of it is unacceptable. I rarely go to movies at all anymore and NEVER pay full ticket price.

Unskippable commericials on DVDs similarly bug me. They have not reduced DVD prices since adding on this tactic, so that's just greed. Skippable ads don't bother me if they help keep DVD prices low. To those who feel the same way, I encourge you all to make your feelings known to the studios and advertisers.

Ads that obscure and distract from the content are unacceptable and must be stamped out. Those advertisers need to hear from angry consumers.

AK

[dgh]

Oh, BS Dave and you know it! I know you're trying to be funny but there was no such crap on my Tivo when I made my first purchase.

Not at all. How about the season pass manager? Was that there when you bought yours? It wasn't when I bought mine. Also forced wishlists, forced parental controls... many things have forced-changed since I bought mine. But that was predictable and spelled out in the simple forced agreement. I did, however, know that the ads were coming. I was forced to know that for nearly 2 years before I was forced to buy my TiVo.

Oh and you might what to re-word that last part of what you wrote, it really doesn't make much sense ("of you make"?).

Y-ASk

Forced grammatical error. Just forcing myself to fit in.

[gonzotek]

I would like to see a pay as you go fee from my cable or sat provider. If I don't ever watch the WB and I don't want to pay for that crap then I shouldn't have to. I would be willing to pay a little more if the channel offered commerical free viewing but no more than $5-$8 per channel each month. I might even be willing to deal with advertisements at the start or the end of a show but not in the middle. I don't think Tivo or any paid DVR/guide data provider should be in the business of Forced Advertisements. That's not what I'm paying for.

The only reason I make such a big deal of this is the fact that I pay Tivo a monthly or lifetime fee for TV that is suppose to be "my way". I'm sorry but "Forced Advertisements", as I see them, is not "TV my way". It's "TV Tivo's way"

Y-ASK
How many commercial-free channels would you subscribe to at $8 per channel? 5, 10, 15, more? VOD is commercial-free and pay-as-you-go, although admittedly today you need a digital cable sub to begin with, and it offers movies for $2.99-4.99 for a mere two-hours of programming that expires 24 hours after you purchase it. How many people do you think would need to subscribe to a niche channel at $8 a month in order to fully fund all of it's programming? How would a potential new channel raise enough start-up funds to initiate it's programming and attract subscribers, and furthermore, how would it attract subscribers without some form of advertising?

[Y-ASK]

How many commercial-free channels would you subscribe to at $8 per channel? 5, 10, 15, more?
Probably no more than $120.00 per month worth...
How many people do you think would need to subscribe to a niche channel at $8 a month in order to fully fund all of it's programming?
I think $8 is too high even though I orgininally stated that figure but seems like HBO is doing fine. It really all depends on the type of programming. A channel that just plays re-runs should not get as much as a channel that shows new shows. I would guess maybe 2.5 million subs would be middle of the road.
How would a potential new channel raise enough start-up funds to initiate it's programming and attract subscribers, and furthermore, how would it attract subscribers without some form of advertising?
How do they do it now? I think the biggest problem you are going to have is with the content providers not necessarily the content producers or new advertisements. Getting a content provider like comcast or DTV to carry your show may be a problem so maybe some type of new law will be needed.

Y-ASK

[akaye]

I think $8 is too high even though I orgininally stated that figure but seems like HBO is doing fine. It really all depends on the type of programming. A channel that just plays re-runs should not get as much as a channel that shows new shows. I would guess maybe 2.5 million subs would be middle of the road.


Here's how HBO does it:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/06/23/apontv.reinventing.hbo.ap/

It takes a lot more than $8/month from 2.5 million people to sustain it.


AK

[JPA2825]

<snip>

The only reason I make such a big deal of this is the fact that I pay Tivo a monthly or lifetime fee for TV that is suppose to be "my way". I'm sorry but "Forced Advertisements", as I see them, is not "TV my way". It's "TV Tivo's way"

Y-ASK

Since I pay a monthly subscription to my local newspaper, does that mean I'm entitled to get it every Sunday without any advertisements, circulars or "coupon inserts"?

[JPA2825]

<snip>

Anyone else hating commercials seen in theaters now, only because they HAVE to watch them to see the movie? We don't go to movies to see commercials, and we don't buy TiVo's to see commercials -- maybe I'm just fanatical about this, but if there was a machine that automatically forwarded past commercials, I'd be interested. I'd just rather stay with TiVo who leapt out to do things right and succeeded... than leap with someone else who might be headed off a cliff.


Assuming the movie starts at 7:10 PM, you have the choice to arrive at 7:09 PM and avoid all but 1 minute of the commercials. If you get a bad seat because of your arrival time, that's a consequence of your choice. Similarly, who would rather read the "movie trivia" dreck they show before a movie starts than even a poorly made commercial?

[Y-ASK]

It takes a lot more than $8/month from 2.5 million people to sustain it.

Yep! And that's why it was probably a bad "guess" on my part. I have no idea how the business would work...

Y-ASK

[Y-ASK]

Since I pay a monthly subscription to my local newspaper, does that mean I'm entitled to get it every Sunday without any advertisements, circulars or "coupon inserts"?
If the main slogan of the local newspaper was "Daily News Your Way" and they never provided any advertising in their paper for almost two years and then one day they raised the price of the subscription and you started to get those advertisements you might be a little miffed. Then again you might not.

Y-ASK

[dylanemcgregor]

Similarly, who would rather read the "movie trivia" dreck they show before a movie starts than even a poorly made commercial?

Me!!! Man, have you seen some of the commercials on before the movies these days? Every theatre in my old town had what they called The 20, or something like that. They were supposed to be entertaining behind the scenes stuff, but man everything I saw was purely awful, almost painful to watch, worse if you went to more then one movie every couple of months and had to sit through them twice. Eeek.

I used to always leave my house aboutthe time the movie was supposed to start to try to avoid the previews; of course that did not always work. My local movie theatre sometimes started the movie at exactly the posted time, other times that was when they started the twenty to 30 minutes of commercials.

Dylan

[akaye]

Assuming the movie starts at 7:10 PM, you have the choice to arrive at 7:09 PM and avoid all but 1 minute of the commercials. If you get a bad seat because of your arrival time, that's a consequence of your choice.

Not reasonable, and not even practical. Unless they post the exact and accurate time the commecials will run, you risk missing the beginning. And they won't do that.
They've greedily changed the revenue model with no benefit to the consumer.
Ticket sales are reflecting audience displeasure. Hopefully they'll soon admit it's their own greed driving down box office.

Similarly, who would rather read the "movie trivia" dreck they show before a movie starts than even a poorly made commercial?

Me, any day of the week and a double-feature on Sunday.

AK

[dgh]

If the main slogan of the local newspaper was "Daily News Your Way"

Is that like the S&P 500 only goes up? These "your way" jingles have practical limits. In the 80s, people on the Internet thought it was cute to go into Burger King "Have it your way!" and demand sushi, kung pao chicken, raw beef, free food etc. and those "scammers" hardly ever complied.

I also remember when a woman ordered a Whopper without a bun. Then she went back to counter and asked for silverware. They said: we don't have silverware. She said: How am I supposed to eat my Whopper without a bun? They said: We were wondering about that too! Oh well, that was semi-your way at least.

Maybe there should be a law against advertising anything as "your way" since it's never 100% true.

[akaye]

If the main slogan of the local newspaper was "Daily News Your Way" and they never provided any advertising in their paper for almost two years and then one day they raised the price of the subscription and you started to get those advertisements you might be a little miffed. Then again you might not.

Y-ASK

I don't like a sudden change in the revenue model either, but TV, like Newspapers have ALWAYS been ad driven. You don't think that 35 cent per issue price even pays for the paper it's printed on, do you?

What you're saying is more akin to this:

You've been paying .35 per issue subscription rate for your newspaper, and you decided to pay someone else, lets call them "tivo", another 5 cents per month to cut out the ads and put them in a sealed envolpe that you can choose to throw out.

Now the advertisers come to "tivo" and say, "hey, we can't be paying all this money for adds if no one sees them. So at least make the envelop see-through, so people know what they may be throwing away. Otherwise, we'll pull our ad dollars and they'll have to pay $10 per issue for the newspaper."

AK

[dgh]

I've seen several magazines that started without a single ad and then added them. People whined, but the response was essentially: Geeze guys, we put out some issues loosing money from our own pockets to determine the size of the market and to attract advertisers.

I'm sure they got a few cancellations out of it, but then life went on.

[Y-ASK]

I'm sure they got a few cancellations out of it, but then life went on.
And I am no advocate of that (Tivo sub cancellations) much to the dismay of ZeoTivo :) Not sure why he has not responded back to this thread :( . No bad feelings for my part...

Y-ASK

[dgh]

And I am no advocate of that (Tivo sub cancellations)


I am. If someone is seriously unhappy, I suggest cancel/ebay and then find something that fits better.

Of course it all depends on the value of "serious". On the Internet, a lot of people's barks are worse than their bites and I sometimes forget that and take their complaints more seriously than they may mean them.

However, there were some old posters who threatened to leave over yellow stars and then stopped posting. If it really bugged them, and they sold their TiVos then that's great. Nothing sends messages to companies better than money.

[RoyK]

I don't like a sudden change in the revenue model either, but TV, like Newspapers have ALWAYS been ad driven. You don't think that 35 cent per issue price even pays for the paper it's printed on, do you?

What you're saying is more akin to this:

You've been paying .35 per issue subscription rate for your newspaper, and you decided to pay someone else, lets call them "tivo", another 5 cents per month to cut out the ads and put them in a sealed envolpe that you can choose to throw out.

Now the advertisers come to "tivo" and say, "hey, we can't be paying all this money for adds if no one sees them. So at least make the envelop see-through, so people know what they may be throwing away. Otherwise, we'll pull our ad dollars and they'll have to pay $10 per issue for the newspaper."

AK

A more accurate interpretation of your little example is:

You've been paying .35 per issue subscription rate for your newspaper, and you decided to pay delivery guy, lets call him "tivo", a bunch of money up front to cut out the ads for the lifetime of his car and put them in a sealed envelope that you can choose to throw out.

Now the advertisers come to "tivo" and say, "hey, we're paying all this money for adds and you're taking money from your customer to cut them out. Tell you what. You haveyour customer's money to cut them out and on top of that we'll pay you to put them in a transparant envelope so he'll see them anyhow.

[ZeoTiVo]

The only reason I make such a big deal of this is the fact that I pay Tivo a monthly or lifetime fee for TV that is suppose to be "my way". I'm sorry but "Forced Advertisements", as I see them, is not "TV my way". It's "TV Tivo's way"

Y-ASK

then why do you keep paying for the TiVo ?

and my point on unsubscribing from cable is that that is hwere the commercials really come from and that is where they are forced upon you. If you truly do not wnat ads forced upon you you would not have a cable subscription.

an graphic over top of the AD tha tis already there is not forced.
the yellow starat the bottom of main menu - I can ignore those pretty easily

the only forced items are unskippable ads on DVDs and ads in theaters - those are rough ones. ANd if TiVo ever forced it to the point of not being able to FF the comercials then I would stop paying/using TiVo as well.

but again it looks like you need to buy a book for entertainment if you want to have no ads "forced" upon you. 5 to 8 $ a month would not cover one decent shows production costs unles 5 million people paid it. no network channel could survive on just that revenue unless it was the history channel or something like that

[ZeoTiVo]

we'll pay you to put them in a transparant envelope so he'll see them anyhow.

and what is the big deal about a transparent envelope. That way I can know easily if I am going to pitch them or read them closer

[akaye]

Now the advertisers come to "tivo" and say, "hey, we're paying all this money for adds and you're taking money from your customer to cut them out. Tell you what. You haveyour customer's money to cut them out and on top of that we'll pay you to put them in a transparant envelope so he'll see them anyhow.

Well, ok, but I think that that's just a matter of how strongly you want to emphasize the cynicism. We're all capitalists, here, right. Tivo's a business, not a public crusader against comercialism.

Your emphasis is on Tivo's selling out and weakening our ability to screw The Man, which is true, and mine is on Tivo's doing whats reasonable to make profit and protect the commercial TV concept.

Believe me, If tivo stops letting me skip over commercials, they loose my business and I fire up a different DVR. That's no idle threat, but this doesn't sound like we're there yet.

AK

[dgh]

and you decided to pay delivery guy, lets call him "tivo", a bunch of money up front to cut out the ads for the lifetime of his car and put them in a sealed envelope that you can choose to throw out.

You should have gotten that in writing, because what you did get in writing is basically that the service is what the delivery guy says it is. I thought long and hard before paying lifetime for such a non-defined service... But then I paid. For the first 62 months, it's been great!

[dgh]

the only forced items are unskippable ads on DVDs and ads in theaters - those are rough ones. ANd if TiVo ever forced it to the point of not being able to FF the comercials then I would stop paying/using TiVo as well.

<accent="Australian">
That's not a forced advertisement...



That's a forced advertisement!
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/images/clockwork_big.jpg

:D

[Y-ASK]

but again it looks like you need to buy a book for entertainment if you want to have no ads "forced" upon you.
I never said that every ad in the world is a problem. I said that I do not like Tivo getting into the Ad business. When I bought my Tivo I did not read the fine print about all the advertising that was to come. I lived happily for a year or two and then the Star appeared and I've been down on Tivo for that very reason ever since, as you well know. Guess I'm just a normal consumer who doesn't research very much before they make a purchase. I'm not sure if it would have made a difference (my initial purchase) if I had known about the upcoming Ads. I might have bought it any way and if they had included their advertising plans in their advertisements at the time I would have nothing to bitch about.

Y-ASK

[akaye]

and what is the big deal about a transparent envelope. That way I can know easily if I am going to pitch them or read them closer

Right, that's the whole point. I think. Wait...I can't remember who agrees with who now...

All those who think this newest ad issue is fair enough and no big deal, say :up:
All those who think it's potential deal-breaker and are close to cancelling, say :down:

AK

[Y-ASK]

:up: I'm not about to cancel or sell my Tivo's, but I reserve the right to bitch about it in hopes that one day Tivo will put their customers 1st instead of their shareholders...

Y-ASK

[TivoPete1]

Just suppose that someone comes out with a "hack" to disable the new commercial icons....

Would this forum not publish that solution under the "no discussions of hacking allowed here" policy? :confused:

[dgh]

II might have bought it any way and if they had included their advertising plans in their advertisements at the time I would have nothing to bitch about.

I don't recall ever seeing an ad for advertising - well not one aimed at the consumer anyway - ads of that sort are normally aimed at advertisers. But they were awfully open about things. For example:

The TV That Watches Back (http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,16925,00.html) was one one many articles that have been posted for years (this one is from 1998.)

Paragraph 3:


"For the very first time, this creates a truly effective, efficient way to target and measure the effectiveness of ads on TV," said Stacy Jolna, TiVo's vice president of programming. "It's the Holy Grail for Madison Avenue."


Not exactly the statement of some sock-it-to-the-advertiser kind of company eh?

[ufo4sale]

Where's a black hole when you need one?

[jrinck]

While I hate the idea of the pop-up ads, the idea of using a 30 second commercial to link you to a longer blurb is not such a bad idea. 30 second commercials are hated because they condense a large amount of marketing blurb into a very short amount of time. The most often result is that viewers get turned off with all the hype and BS.

A three minute, or even ten minute advertising piece can do wonders, however. The hype and BS will still be there, but not thrust at you every second. How many of you watched the PSP blurb, or the spot about BMW? I'm guessing you actually appreciated those, since you consented to watch them. How insulted did you feel after that? Probably not. In fact, you most likely walked away with a more positive image about both products than you would if all you saw was a 30 second spot.

What I really would like to see would be these long blurbs about products I want to know about. Learning about products is not such a bad thing if the product is something you legitimately might be interested in. Let me go fill out a form somewhere and have the targeted blurbs sent to my DVR. If I watch them, have the advertiser credit my cable/sat bill fifty cents or something.

Ads are really not the enemy. The enemy is how they've been presented all these years, and now there is a wonderful way to change that for the better for everyone.

[ADent]

Just suppose that someone comes out with a "hack" to disable the new commercial icons....

Would this forum not publish that solution under the "no discussions of hacking allowed here" policy? :confused:


Yes. Isn't there currently a ban on the posts that kill the yellow star ads?

The following is on the opening page for the Underground Forum:


NOTE...No talk of any type of service theft or video extraction is allowed. This also includes hacks that remove ads from TiVo software

[ZeoTiVo]

Ads are really not the enemy. The enemy is how they've been presented all these years, and now there is a wonderful way to change that for the better for everyone.

well said :up:

[RoyK]

While I hate the idea of the pop-up ads, the idea of using a 30 second commercial to link you to a longer blurb is not such a bad idea...

.......

What I really would like to see would be these long blurbs about products I want to know about. Learning about products is not such a bad thing if the product is something you legitimately might be interested in. Let me go fill out a form somewhere and have the targeted blurbs sent to my DVR. If I watch them, have the advertiser credit my cable/sat bill fifty cents or something.

Ads are really not the enemy. The enemy is how they've been presented all these years, and now there is a wonderful way to change that for the better for everyone.

There already is a wonderful way to get that information - its called the World Wide Web. If one wants to know about a product its very easy to find all kinds of information there.

This can be done in almost all cases without the disclosure of your personal information -- name, address, phone number, email address --thereby subjecting you to more junk mail, spam, and unsolicited telemarketing (Being on the do-not call list doesn't protect you from calls from organizations if you ever solicit information from them).

[ZeoTiVo]

There already is a wonderful way to get that information - its called the World Wide Web. If one wants to know about a product its very easy to find all kinds of information there.


yes but a 10 minute Victoria's secret ad or a list of new fall lineup complete with enough outtakes of the shows along with an easy way to make the ones I like season passes is not available on the web.

being told about a contest and being able to enter it without having to go search the web works better for me.

TiVo is a company that depends on people contiuing their subscriptions, without that they are nothing. When will you all get that simple fact that keeps all the horrible imaginings like spam from actually happening. It just is not a good business model for TiVo

[RoyK]

TiVo is a company that depends on people contiuing their subscriptions, without that they are nothing. When will you all get that simple fact that keeps all the horrible imaginings like spam from actually happening. It just is not a good business model for TiVo

I don't think I even hinted that TiVo would spam. It is, however, a fact that when one clicks on one of those wonderful new ads TiVo will send your personal information to the advertisor - an ad agency. Guess how they make their money....

[RoyK]

TiVo is a company that depends on people contiuing their subscriptions, without that they are nothing. When will you all get that simple fact that keeps all the horrible imaginings like spam from actually happening. It just is not a good business model for TiVo

More:

For those who haven't read it (wish I had sooner) the TiVo privacy agreement is here:

http://www.tivo.com/5.11.3.asp

Excerpted from that agreement:

1.5 "Commerce Information"
means personally identifiable information that enables a commerce partner to fulfill your request to participate in a promotion or transaction. From time to time, TiVo may present special offers and/or enable you to purchase goods and services from TiVo, or third party advertisers or promoters. You would be informed of such offers on screen while using the TiVo Plus service. Should you decide to take advantage of such an offer or engage in a transaction, TiVo will collect and communicate your relevant Contact Information and your interest in a specific offer or transaction to the commerce partner sponsoring the promotion or transaction. In addition to fulfilling your request, that commerce partner may also use your Commerce Information to send you other information in which you might be interested consistent with its own privacy policies. This information is collected and disclosed by TiVo only upon your affirmative response to an offer. NOTE: Depending on your level of TiVo service and the model of your TiVo DVR, such features may not be available to you.




a "Contact Information"
means information that allows someone to identify or contact you, including, for example: your name, address, telephone number, and e-mail address. Contact Information is a subset of Account Information and is thus linked to your TiVo DVR's Service Number. Your ZIP code by itself, while part of your address, is not Contact Information because your ZIP code alone does not allow someone to identify or contact you. NOTE: If your TiVo DVR is receiving the TiVo Basic service, you are not required to provide TiVo with any Contact Information from that TiVo DVR.

[TiVoPrince]

Can I roll back to the functionality of last years software version to aviod this?

Oh wait, My series one standalone and DirecTV units haven't been updated with fresh software in at least that long. Since I have lifetimes on both versions, my only recourse is to dispose of them and go Media Center PC for my recording needs. Not likely, but still a possibility if this new form of advertising intrusion becomes annoying...

[Turtleboy]

Can I roll back to the functionality of last years software version to aviod this?

Oh wait, My series one standalone and DirecTV units haven't been updated with fresh software in at least that long. Since I have lifetimes on both versions, my only recourse is to dispose of them and go Media Center PC for my recording needs. Not likely, but still a possibility if this new form of advertising intrusion becomes annoying...

You're standalone and directtv units won't be getting these. (Yet).

[piper]

There already is a wonderful way to get that information - its called the World Wide Web. If one wants to know about a product its very easy to find all kinds of information there.


There are adverts all over the web as well. You just can't get away from them.

I think advertising on TV in America is so out of control that the advertisers have killed the medium they are supposed to be supporting. It's a mess - non-DVR'd TV is unwatchable as far as I'm concerned. It's nothing like this bad in other countries but in the US the idea of having very little control over what is broadcast has resulted in the most commercialised mind-numbing lowest common denominator dross broadcast anywhere on the planet.

Anyway, problem with the web-searching idea: what about the things you don't even know about yet which you will want to buy in the future? You have to be told about them to be able to want them. If you made a product you would have no choice but to go out and chase customers and not just rely on them discovering you by accident while surfing the web.

The new advertising on TiVo is bad news but at least it's still not as bad as pre-DVR TV.

[gonzotek]

I don't think I even hinted that TiVo would spam. It is, however, a fact that when one clicks on one of those wonderful new ads TiVo will send your personal information to the advertisor - an ad agency. Guess how they make their money....Did you read the part where you have to opt-in to each request for your information?This information is collected and disclosed by TiVo only upon your affirmative response to an offer.It's not a fact that "When one clicks on one of those wonderful new ads TiVo will send your personal information to the advertisor"; it's when one clicks on a request for more information button. The way you described it is by simply hitting thumbs up once during a pop-up(perhaps entirely by accident) you've given your information away. That isn't the way the system is designed. Some ads won't have an offer for any more info, like movies or WB shows. And TiVo won't send it without explaining what it is sending and getting your express confirmation that you want to do it. If a person (such as yourself) nevers wants to give their information away(which is certainly a reasonable thing) they are still able to watch the long-form ad under the pop-up if they have an interest. Now, the whole "under-age members of the household using the feature" issue is a concern, but parental controls should be able to ask for a password before allowing information to be sent.

[Y-ASK]

yes but a 10 minute Victoria's secret ad or a list of new fall lineup complete with enough outtakes of the shows along with an easy way to make the ones I like season passes is not available on the web.

being told about a contest and being able to enter it without having to go search the web works better for me.

TiVo is a company that depends on people contiuing their subscriptions, without that they are nothing. When will you all get that simple fact that keeps all the horrible imaginings like spam from actually happening. It just is not a good business model for TiVo
That's Great! I'm glad you're happy with the new offerings but I would like to have the ability to Opt-Out and never see any of these advertisements. Having to click a button to get rid of it is too much. I don't want to see it in the 1st place.

Y-ASK

[RoyK]

Did you read the part where you have to opt-in to each request for your information?It's not a fact that "When one clicks on one of those wonderful new ads TiVo will send your personal information to the advertisor"; it's when one clicks on a request for more information button. The way you described it is by simply hitting thumbs up once during a pop-up(perhaps entirely by accident) you've given your information away. That isn't the way the system is designed. Some ads won't have an offer for any more info, like movies or WB shows. And TiVo won't send it without explaining what it is sending and getting your express confirmation that you want to do it. If a person (such as yourself) nevers wants to give their information away(which is certainly a reasonable thing) they are still able to watch the long-form ad under the pop-up if they have an interest. Now, the whole "under-age members of the household using the feature" issue is a concern, but parental controls should be able to ask for a password before allowing information to be sent.


Yes. But it doesn't.
Better I be able to tell TiVo NEVER to divulge my personal info - opt out. Permanently.

[Hunter Green]

I wonder how well TiVo would do to offer an "ad-free" version with no yellow stars, no pop-up ads, etc. for an extra $5 a month. I'm sure they've considered it.

[RoyK]

I wonder how well TiVo would do to offer an "ad-free" version with no yellow stars, no pop-up ads, etc. for an extra $5 a month. I'm sure they've considered it.

Right

Impose crap on us then charge us more to remove it. I'm sure that would be a huge hit.

[Y-ASK]

Right

Impose crap on us then charge us more to remove it. I'm sure that would be a huge hit.
Exactly! Why not go the other way? Have Tivo reduce the monthly sub if you agree to Opt in and see how many takers they have.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

<accent="Australian">
That's not a forced advertisement...



That's a forced advertisement!
see image above
:D

amen I say to you my brother, lets have us a go at the milk bar and listen to Ludwig

[ZeoTiVo]

That's Great! I'm glad you're happy with the new offerings but I would like to have the ability to Opt-Out and never see any of these advertisements. Having to click a button to get rid of it is too much. I don't want to see it in the 1st place.

Y-ASK

again if you do not want to see ads then read a book in a windowless room.

otherwise the ads are there so I can be entertained for an affordable amount of money. NOTE - did not say reasonbable amount of money - that is another topic altogether.

how pointless is it to watch commercial television with any technology and complain about ads being forced into the broadcast stream :rolleyes:

of course the preference is to be able to wtach great shows for free with no extra content, just the show. But by age 4 I learned that what I wanted and reality were definitely not the same thing

[ZeoTiVo]

Right

Impose crap on us then charge us more to remove it. I'm sure that would be a huge hit.


that would be called HBO and SHOWTIME I believe. They seem to be doing alright ;)

[ZeoTiVo]

Exactly! Why not go the other way? Have Tivo reduce the monthly sub if you agree to Opt in and see how many takers they have.

Y-ASK

thye have not hit the subscription yet, but they certainly are lowering the price of the box in the first place.

edit - CCWF reminded me that they have indeed drastically reduced the subscription ofr multiple TiVo DVRs.

[dylanemcgregor]

Yes. But it doesn't.
Better I be able to tell TiVo NEVER to divulge my personal info - opt out. Permanently.

Do what I always do for every type of service that asks for personal information but does not really need it and make it up. Problem solved. :p

Dylan

[ccwf]

I wonder how well TiVo would do to offer an "ad-free" version with no yellow stars, no pop-up ads, etc. for an extra $5 a month. I'm sure they've considered it. Exactly! Why not go the other way? Have Tivo reduce the monthly sub if you agree to Opt in and see how many takers they have. Current U.S. Standalone TiVo Monthly Subscription: $12.95/mo first unit, $6.95/mo for next five units under Multi-Service Discount
Current TiVo Monthly Subscription for DVRs with no iPreview, yellow stars, movie trailers, showcases, or any other advertising: £10/mo (~$17.50/mo)

[Y-ASK]

Current U.S. Standalone TiVo Monthly Subscription: $12.95/mo first unit, $6.95/mo for next five units under Multi-Service Discount
Current TiVo Monthly Subscription for DVRs with no iPreview, yellow stars, movie trailers, showcases, or any other advertising: £10/mo (~$17.50/mo)
Last time I checked Snapstream BeyondTV did not have a subscription fee so the real answer would be $0.00 per month...

http://www.snapstream.com

I like the quote from the Associated Press: "Proving that a PC can rival Tivo"

Tivo's interface and search functions are better but it's still a solid alternative if Tivo goes too far over to the Dark Side... And it supports dual tuners!

Y-ASK

[Y-ASK]

again if you do not want to see ads then read a book in a windowless room.

I never said that I did not want to see any Ads. I said that I did not want my Tivo to show me Ads of any kind. That is not what I bought the box for. I understand how the TV/Commerical Viewing system works thank you and I bought my Tivo to avoid to some extent many of the commericals that are currently being shown. Why are you putting words into my writings? Stop over generalizing and stick to the topic of Tivo and their increased advertising scheme. I don't like being one of their captive audience and if it gets too bad I will leave the nest. I truly am glad that you are happy by the current offers but if it's ok with you, I would prefer not to be...

Y-ASK

[dgh]

I never said that I did not want to see any Ads.
...
Why are you putting words into my writings?


I also thought that you had said that.

I would be willing to pay a little more if the channel offered commerical free viewing but no more than $5-$8 per channel each month.

That plus your willingness to pay a whopping $120 per month for these made me think your goal was a commercial-free environment.

[Y-ASK]

I also thought that you had said that.

Well if you can find a quote... but I really don't think I ever said that and most of the stuff that I was wishing for is Pie In The Sky stuff and was information that was requested by another poster. I'm sure that it is highly unlikely to happen.

Hopefully my last post cleared it up just so you know where I stand.

Y-ASK

[dgh]

but I really don't think I ever said that

That quote is from this thread.

Hopefully my last post cleared it up just so you know where I stand.

I'm not sure. It sounds to me like:

Wish = yes.
Want = no.

But that's a pretty fine distinction. No biggie but it's a bit subtle to be accusing someone of putting words in your writings.

Or was it:

Want = no.
I said that = really???

I actually used your willingness to pay $120/month for commercial free TV as an example in another thread earlier today so I was "buying it". ;)

[Y-ASK]

Ok let's define the word "That" in this context. When I said " I don't think I ever said that" I was refering to the fact that I never said that I never I wanted to view any or ALL Ads. I thought I said that pretty clearly. I don't want to see ads on my Tivo, does that make sense?

Ok I guess I understand how you came to that conclusion. Sorry ZeoTivo, you did not put words into my writings and I guess I was just not clear enough.

Y-ASK

[Hunter Green]

I bet they'd sell even more if they gave it all away free. Probably even more if they paid us to get it.

The point is, having two different prices, one for a whine-free, I mean ad-free, version. What the actual prices are is immaterial -- it'll be whatever it costs TiVo to provide the service and make a profit.

This is why I stopped getting involved in conversations here about TiVo business strategy options. They always devolve into people wanting everything at ridiculously low prices and not caring about anything else. Frugality has been lost to miserliness, its evil twin.

[ZeoTiVo]

Ok I guess I understand how you came to that conclusion. Sorry ZeoTivo, you did not put words into my writings and I guess I was just not clear enough.

Y-ASK

cool, and nicely said :up:

I was under the assumption you wanted to never see an AD anywhere.
if that is not the case then I have trouble seeing why the overlay bothers you so much but that is subjective and you certainly are entitled to your own opinion on the matter. :)

What I was meaning to convey in my posts is exactly that the only way to avoid ads is to pay for the material directly, as in buying a copy of a book, or a premium channel like HBO or DVDs that do not do a sell job on you. The billboard ads on TiVo do not bother me since the ad is there already and the original ad helped pay for the content and I still FF the same as before - now the ads on a DVD I have to do something different to avoid or can not avoid bug the hell out of me especially since I either bought or rented the DVD for the content on it and should not be forced there to watch ads since I did pay for the content directly

[Y-ASK]

My problems, or as Hunter Green writes "whines" :rolleyes: , with Tivo's advertising plans are all principle. It is not what I purchased the device for and I feel that if I am paying for a service I should be able to Opt out of such advertisements. But then if the majority of Tivo owners decided to opt out they wouldn't have much to offer advertisers would they. So we've now become a captured audience and advertisements are forced. At least that's the way I see. Provide an option to Opt out and the problem with us whiners is solved. :)

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

My problems, or as Hunter Green writes "whines" :rolleyes: , with Tivo's advertising plans are all principle. It is not what I purchased the device for and I feel that if I am paying for a service I should be able to Opt out of such advertisements. But then if the majority of Tivo owners decided to opt out they wouldn't have much to offer advertisers would they. So we've now become a captured audience and advertisements are forced. At least that's the way I see. Provide an option to Opt out and the problem with us whiners is solved. :)

Y-ASK

I actually doubt the majority of owners would opt out. A significant minority would. And TiVo did not sell you the TiVo expressly as a device to skip ads and has been clear about its plans to use advertising as a revenue source for some time. I know there was no banner on the retail shelf or on the box with this info but I see no reason this can be claimed as something different that TiVo never informed about before and thus no reason to offer an opt out. The audience was not captured by deceitful means so no remedy is needed.

I am afraid that the only opt out will be to stop using the TiVo.

as for my opinion on billboard ads - since I do nothing different then I currently do to skip the ads and all I see is a graphic on the screen with a logo or something only when the commercial is on the screen I OPT OUT by simply ignoring it and do what I do now anyhow. I expect though That I will hit the button on things like new movies and upcoming shows and if I am in the market for a car or soemthing then those as well depending on the show I am watching.

my only complaint will be "Where is the Victoria's Secret Billboard AD already??"

[dgh]

Provide an option to Opt out and the problem with us whiners is solved. :)


I don't think whiners are a "problem" for TiVo - certainly not a significant problem. Some people here on the forum may be annoyed but that's not really a problem for TiVo either. A few weeks ago in the Happy Hour, there was a thread asking what other TCF forums you regularly visit. Several people noted that they used to hang out in the Coffee House but it got whiney so they "moved" to the happy hour. People can and will solve their own forum problems.

[Y-ASK]

I actually doubt the majority of owners would opt out. A significant minority would. And TiVo did not sell you the TiVo expressly as a device to skip ads and has been clear about its plans to use advertising as a revenue source for some time.

I'd have to disagree with you on both these points but the 1st would be hard to prove since I don't think Tivo would ever give up their captive audience. The second part is really easy. All you have to do is go back to just about any Ad they put out on the device. One of the biggest selling points was the ability to FF through advertisements. It was said in their commericals and in their written advertisements, but no where did I see anything written about their future plans to provide their own advertisements other than their own legalize terms and conditions. So there you have it. They have the right to do it and if it gets too out of hand I'll move on.

Sorry to every one who may feel like I'm a whiner. But I do have one question for others who are following this thread, am I the only one who feels this way? If I am then I will shutup on the subject...

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

All you have to do is go back to just about any Ad they put out on the device. One of the biggest selling points was the ability to FF through advertisements. It was said in their commericals and in their written advertisements, Y-ASK

there was a thread where someone else made that claim. We asked for the proof and after his motivated search he found a few references in the famous people love tiVo videos on the web site, something in the FAQ, and one online ad from a disreputable directTV installer.

basically TiVo has been careful to talk of FFing the recorded content and distancing themselves from FFing or skipping ads themselves. They do not SELL TiVo DVRs based on this ability, many people may of course have BOUGHT a TiVo for this ability but that is a different thing.

[gonzotek]

I'd have to disagree with you on both these points but the 1st would be hard to prove since I don't think Tivo would ever give up their captive audience. The second part is really easy. All you have to do is go back to just about any Ad they put out on the device. One of the biggest selling points was the ability to FF through advertisements. It was said in their commericals and in their written advertisements, but no where did I see anything written about their future plans to provide their own advertisements other than their own legalize terms and conditions. So there you have it. They have the right to do it and if it gets too out of hand I'll move on.Actually, the only instance of a TiVo, Inc. ad in print, video, or web mediums, that I am aware of, which used wording specifically indicating the Tivo device could be used to fast forward through advertising was very recent('05), in fact it was after the announcement that TiVo had given advertisers the billboard opportunity. Many other forum members have commented on that distinction before today. Up until then, the wording of official TiVo advertisements only indicated time-shifting and simple fast-forwarding, rewinding, instant replay, and the other features that make TiVo unique among VCRs and other DVRs. The ability of the unit to ad-skip was never a prominently promoted feature.

[Y-ASK]

basically TiVo has been careful to talk of FFing the recorded content and distancing themselves from FFing or skipping ads themselves. They do not SELL TiVo DVRs based on this ability, many people may of course have BOUGHT a TiVo for this ability but that is a different thing.
Yeah, you're probably right but I don't think it takes a genius nor is it a hugh leap to equate FFing thru content as saying that Ads are probably what is being FF'ed through the most. Looks like no one else agrees with me so I'll shutup now.

Thanks for listening to me "Whine",
Y-ASK

[akaye]

They always devolve into people wanting everything at ridiculously low prices and not caring about anything else. Frugality has been lost to miserliness, its evil twin.

Exactly.
It comes from an overblown sense of entitlement, IMNSHO.

Some people seem to think cheap-to-free TV services are guarenteed by the Constitution, or at least implicit in the "pursuit of happiness."

(BTW, I'm not refering to you, Y-ASK. Exprssing wishes, even if they're impractical--or whining, as some have charactarized it--is perfectly reasonable here. As is being told, in response, to "suck it up, Cupcake.")

AK

[ccwf]

my only complaint will be "Where is the Victoria's Secret Billboard AD already??" On a related note, I saw a Playboy billboard ad last night. It's along the I-10 in Santa Monica.

[mkjones2]

I saw the "Interpreter" ad back in March and hated it. The billboard was a quarter of the screen and right in the middle. I don't use 30 sec skip, just FF, and couldn't see the screen well enough to see when the program came back on. :mad:

[dgh]

The billboard ending should be a pretty good clue. (Or are you talking about the one with the bug that continued into the program?)

[dylanemcgregor]

I saw the "Interpreter" ad back in March and hated it. The billboard was a quarter of the screen and right in the middle. I don't use 30 sec skip, just FF, and couldn't see the screen well enough to see when the program came back on. :mad:

I have not seen these ads myself yet, but from what I have heard it seems like are smaller then the Negotiater ad, and also back in the corner. If anyone has a screenshot of the new Saturn ad, or any other one for that matter, I would love to see it. Thanks. :)

Dylan

[mkjones2]

The billboard ending should be a pretty good clue. (Or are you talking about the one with the bug that continued into the program?)

Yes, it did continue as long as I was FF'ing, if I remember correctly. So the billboard should go away when the commercial ends? Maybe that won't be too bad.

[devlindark]

I have seen an ad the other day it was at the top left side of the screen and the had the thumbs up button above it with a static bordered picture beneath it,
of a Chevy SUV during a Chevy commercial, the only thing though was as I had believed it was only going to occur when you used FF and it was up during live TV
I wasn't recording the show only the Tivo buffer was working so I hit rewind and there it was, So I guess these ad's are not limited to FF but there reguardless?

[jlb]

I have no problem at all with this.....However, I haven't seen one yet. Has anyone been able to get a screencap of what it looks like........

Also, how is the content for these being "downloaded"? Is it embedded in the transmission stream or does it come along the path of showcases, i.e., the latenight recordings from "paid programming" channels?

I just have what I call sub-basic cable so I can never get showcases/enhanced content anyway.

[devlindark]

how would I get a screen capture of this other than take a picture with my camera?

is there another way? if there is please let me know and when I see it again
I will hit record on the Tivo and then get the picture and post it here

[ccwf]

how would I get a screen capture of this other than take a picture with my camera?

is there another way? if there is please let me know and when I see it again
I will hit record on the Tivo and then get the picture and post it here Video capture card, but camera is going to be the easiest option for most people.

[hargreae]

Fact of the matter is, your monthly fee to your cable/sat provider and to Tivo combined is NOT enough to produce the content, not by a long shot.

Now, ad bugs that obscure and distract fom the content, un-skippable commercials on DVDs that I paid for, and, worst of all (ARRGH!), commericials in movie theaters...THAT's worth fighting about.
You see no contradiction in your own statement? You say it's okay to complain about ads in movie theaters, but not on television? Let me alter your own quote, so you might realize, 'Fact of the matter is, your ticket and food purchases at your movie theater combined are NOT enough to produce the movie and pay the bills of the local theater, not by a long shot.'

[akaye]

You see no contradiction in your own statement? You say it's okay to complain about ads in movie theaters, but not on television? Let me alter your own quote, so you might realize, 'Fact of the matter is, your ticket and food purchases at your movie theater combined are NOT enough to produce the movie and pay the bills of the local theater, not by a long shot.'

Not at all. Your cable fees pay for delevery and extra services, your Tivo fees pay for your Tivo service. The commerical television is paid for by the commericials. All ways has been.

Movies are paid for by box office take, and (in recent years) DVD and video sales. (there are other revenue sources that have been available, like product placement, too).

Greed and greed alone is making movie actors and studios want ever increasing profits from the same model, and they started piling on a NEW revenue source: commercials IN ADDITION to HIGHER TICKET PRICES, IN SPITE of market disapproval, and they they wonder why box office numbers are slumping.

Unless you know otherwise, I think theater expenses have little to with it. Concession stand prices are another matter, and that has far bigger effect on theater expenes than commericials. If the commercials ARE there for the theater rather than the producers, then my argument is still valid, but applies to the conncession stand rather than the box office.

AK

[ZeoTiVo]

Not at all. Your cable fees pay for delevery and extra services, your Tivo fees pay for your Tivo service. The commerical television is paid for by the commericials. All ways has been.

Movies are paid for by box office take, and (in recent years) DVD and video sales. (there are other revenue sources that have been available, like product placement, too).

Greed and greed alone is making movie actors and studios want ever increasing profits from the same model, and they started piling on a NEW revenue source: commercials IN ADDITION to HIGHER TICKET PRICES, IN SPITE of market disapproval, and they they wonder why box office numbers are slumping.

Unless you know otherwise, I think theater expenses have little to with it. Concession stand prices are another matter, and that has far bigger effect on theater expenes than commericials. If the commercials ARE there for the theater rather than the producers, then my argument is still valid, but applies to the conncession stand rather than the box office.

AK

the previews come with the movie and are I think are put there by the producers of the movie as a revenue generaotr of getting people to see those movies in some form.

the ads I think are put there solely by the theater owner as a way to get more revenue. Since I paid 6 or 7$ (where I live) to get i nand watch the movie I find it having to sit through a few commercials on the screen with sound to be highly annoying - since they typically start after the previews and before the movie it was extra time and an abuse of my paid ticket.

now some theaters have had "print" ads with no sound or just music going in a slidesow before the previews started. That was not so annoying as I chose to be there before the start time and could ignore them anyway. On vacation it wa actually helpful as we wanted to do something different that year and saw an ad for a new waterpark we tried and liked the next day :up:

ads on DVDs or forced previews on DVDs are just horrible as that is paid for content as well.

[akaye]

To further clarify my position:

1. I expect costs for a given service to rise in general. If the increases are reasonable, I'm ok with it.

2. I expect costs to rise if services are added or imroved. If the service warrants the costs, I'm ok with it.

3. I expect businesses incrase profits by adding new revenue streams. If they don't interfer with my enjoyment of the service, or better yet, INCREASE IT, I'm ok with it.

4. I expect businesses increase profits by reducing their costs. If those reductions don't take away from quality and value of the service, I'm ok with it.

Tivo adds yellow star adds (3).
Tivo changes the "Thumbs up" to a company logo (3).
Ticket prices go up (1)
Popcorn prices go up (1)
Commercials on commercial TV get longer (1, and 2 but pushing the reasonablness of it and the quality of the service.)
Cable costs rise (2 --I get VOD, payper view, more channels, etc) I'm ok with it.


In the case of movies, they have raised the prices, not improved the service, and are are now making me PAY to see ads that they are getting paid to show and passing any value on to me. -- not ok.

If Tivo changed their service to where I couldn't fast forward over what I choose, or had to watch adds between menus (decreasign the usefulness of the service) that would not be ok...especially if they didn't lower the cost to me as well.

If I suddently had to pay to watch ABC over the air, and it still had commercials, and the shows or services didn't improve insome dramatic way to justify the new cost, it would not be ok.

If the commericials in Theaters proit the theaters, then, similarly, they have not lowered popcorn prices, they do not kick out loud mouths, they have not improved the service, so it's not ok.

AK


lim

[devlindark]

One of the main reasons that Theater Revenues are slipping on the average move is the huge birth in society of the personal Home Theater Room. People are taking over once unused rooms in their homes and building a wonderful at home experience for the family and friends. After the cost of equipment and Install which in most cases a novice can read and perform an install with a little research and attention to detail, you can go out an buy most DVD's for under $20.

If you go out to the movies in most places tickets can cost bettween $8.00 - $9.50 or more
so for 2 people that comes to a cost of $16.00 - $19.00 add in the cost of a couple sodas' $3.50 ea ($7.00) and popcorn ($5.00) now your in the realm of $28 - $31.00
do that more than twice a month and you'll feel the pain. Also you get to see the movie once on their terms and with people you don't know with kids screaming or talking and throwing stuff, or the guy who thinks that the actors can hear him like a broadway play as he shouts at the scream seamingly oblivious to the people around him. Once you buy the DVD it is yours for as long as you like,

[beboyle]

Slightly OT but to clarify a misperception. 1) Trailers are provided by producers but added by the theaters - in fact at the theater in most cases - to advertise future showings by that theater. Trailers on a particular film may not be from the same distributor as the film. 2) Commercials, which are a fast-growing revenue generator, are sold by and benefit the theater, no revenue goes to the movie producers. 3) Ticket sales barely (and sometimes not quite) cover the cost of renting the movie. Profit comes primarily from concession sales. With attendence and concession sales slipping, the commercials are a new way for theaters to generate profit.

[MighTiVo]

I don't know of any plans to offer that feature, but I'm sure it would be possible in the future.

Even better, Thumbs up to connect to a HME interactive site.

For example, PBS always says for more details go to pbs.org during frontline, nova, etc.

How about thumbs up for more info and you get a HME application that has the ability to play audio, shows pictures, and perhaps in the future download more content.

[akaye]

Slightly OT but to clarify a misperception. 1) Trailers are provided by producers but added by the theaters - in fact at the theater in most cases - to advertise future showings by that theater. Trailers on a particular film may not be from the same distributor as the film. 2) Commercials, which are a fast-growing revenue generator, are sold by and benefit the theater, no revenue goes to the movie producers. 3) Ticket sales barely (and sometimes not quite) cover the cost of renting the movie. Profit comes primarily from concession sales. With attendence and concession sales slipping, the commercials are a new way for theaters to generate profit.

OK. Popcorn price/loudmouth argument applies, then.
I do know though, that in addition to whatever say the theaters may have, the studios influence what trailers are shown, and they often come attached to the print. There was at least one highly publicized account in the popular press recently past of a theater chain refusing to show a certain film because they objected to the trailers they were required to show...or something like that.

[cwoody222]

Was this 'feature' the reason for the PTCM I got tonight regarding the updated Privacy Policy? Although that mentioned 'downloading content to the TiVo' I suppose that could mean lame content like extended length ads and not cool stuff like TiVo To Go in reverse.

[tazzftw]

I just want to say, that if this is what I think it is (a small ad saying "Press Thumbs Up for more info" in the upper right corner), then I don't mind it at all. In fact, I think it can be extremely vaulable. I used to only see it with TV show commercials, and the ad was just to give me the option to record that episode. The other day, it appeared during a Stealth commercial. I was somewhat interested in the movie, so I hit Up, and I had the option to view the trailer and the first four minutes of the movie.

The way I see it, seeing the little ad for a couple seconds is no different than seeing the actual commercial for two seconds. If it starts appearing during actual shows, for unrelated content, or if they start taking huge amounts of disk space, then I'll complain.

[HydePark]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I could be wrong, but wasn't the very first incarnation of cable television commerical free? I remember, vaguely, that was the whole idea to actually "pay for television"--no commericals. I remember thinking who in their right mind would "pay" for TV. Obviously when the subs hit critical mass and hundreds of channels came into existence---pay TV basically became plain old TV. And as viewers subsidized the programming providers and producers also made money on the ads.

I just see Tivo taking the training wheels off and executing a similar plan. In fact, after having a Tivo for 5 years, that is watching regular TV for me. Kind of like when you first "paid" for programming, there is no going back. No putting the antenna on the roof. I cannot fathom not using a Tivo to control my programming. I think it would be a disgrace for Tivo not to actually make money considering how their product is in the process of seismically altering the face of both television watching and broadcast advertising.

[akaye]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I could be wrong, but wasn't the very first incarnation of cable television commerical free? I remember, vaguely, that was the whole idea to actually "pay for television"--no commericals. I remember thinking who in their right mind would "pay" for TV. Obviously when the subs hit critical mass and hundreds of channels came into existence---pay TV basically became plain old TV. And as viewers subsidized the programming providers and producers also made money on the ads.


No, the first incarnation of Cable TV, or CATV (Community Antenna Television) was a guy out west who built an antenna tower on the hill beside his valley town so he and his neighbors could get decent reception. I don't know whether he charged for it at first or just shared the costs of maintaining it (I can look it up, but I'm lazy), but the principle was always "pay for the cable connection to a better delivery mechanism", the content had nothing to do with it.

I think paying for TV content came about with services like WHT (WOMETCO HOME THEATER) , originally delivered over the air, not via cable, and later HBO, etc.

EDIT: OK I looked it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television#History__of_U.S._cable_TV_and_its_regulatio n

AK

[Y-ASK]

I cannot fathom not using a Tivo to control my programming. I think it would be a disgrace for Tivo not to actually make money considering how their product is in the process of seismically altering the face of both television watching and broadcast advertising.
I think a case can be made that Tivo would be doing just fine with the current subscription numbers and various deals that they have made (DTV & Comcast) if they just managed their money better. I know I will never be able to prove it but it is my opinion that Tivo blows way too much money on needless crap (R&D for Advertisements and other such BS). They should have been profitable a long time ago IMHO.

Y-ASK


HydePark - Glad you came from behind the voiceless masses and joined the conversation. Welcome...

[ashu]

And those current subscriptions (including the excellent growth over the last few months) would, in the absence of advertising and promotions, have just have fallen into their laps - presumably by word of mouth, eh? :)

To put it mildly, I disagree with your opinion and feel they could and should advertise more, more ffectively and seek out more excellent partnerships (they've started doing All of the Above lately :) )

[dylanemcgregor]

And those current subscriptions (including the excellent growth over the last few months) would, in the absence of advertising and promotions, have just have fallen into their laps - presumably by word of mouth, eh? :)

To put it mildly, I disagree with your opinion and feel they could and should advertise more, more ffectively and seek out more excellent partnerships (they've started doing All of the Above lately :) )

I am pretty sure he does not mean TiVo advertising the product, but spending money figuring out how to best make money by showing you ads. Kind of a different point, eh? :)

[Y-ASK]

I am pretty sure he does not mean TiVo advertising the product, but spending money figuring out how to best make money by showing you ads. Kind of a different point, eh? :)
Exactly! :)

My post has nothing to do with Tivo advertising their product in the newspaper or the sales pages of BestBuy.

Y-ASK

[ashu]

Exactly! :)

My post has nothing to do with Tivo advertising their product in the newspaper or the sales pages of BestBuy.

Y-ASK

Gotcha.

But I seriously like the concept of the Thumbs-Up ads as they are now. Not intrusive, can be FFWDed through, return you to the exact location if you DO decide to hit TU ... what's NOT to like ;) ?

[Y-ASK]

Gotcha.

But I seriously like the concept of the Thumbs-Up ads as they are now. Not intrusive, can be FFWDed through, return you to the exact location if you DO decide to hit TU ... what's NOT to like ;) ?
Like I told ZeoTivo, I'm glad you guys like the current setup but I do not. My problem is that I do not think Tivo should be in the Ad business what-so-ever. I get enough of that else where and since I'm paying them a fee, well you get my point.

Think about it. What is the most used button/feature on your Tivo? If you sit down and count how many times you use a particular feature I bet the FF or 30 second skip gets the most use. So what are you FF'ing through? Most people would say advertisements. Some FF during sporting events but for the most part I would guess that advertisements are the number video that is getting FF'ed through. Many (notice how I did not say most or everyone) people just don't like to watch advertisements and will FF through them. So if the majority of your subscription base doesn't like Ads, why build a feature around advertisements. It makes absolutely no sense unless you don't give a damn about your customers and only care about your bottom line and/or shareholders. That's why there is no opt out on this feature because probably a majority of their subscription base would opt out.

Y-ASK

[RoyK]

Like I told ZeoTivo, I'm glad you guys like the current setup but I do not. My problem is that I do not think Tivo should be in the Ad business what-so-ever. I get enough of that else where and since I'm paying them a fee, well you get my point.

.....

It makes absolutely no sense unless you don't give a damn about your customers and only care about your bottom line and/or shareholders. That's why there is no opt out on this feature because probably a majority of their subscription base would opt out.

Y-ASK

BINGO!

And most investors don't give a damn about the LONG TERM profitablilty of the companies that they invest in. TiVo has passed the honeymoon stage with investors. From now on it's what the next quarter's bottom line is that concerns them.

[ZeoTiVo]

I think a case can be made that Tivo would be doing just fine with the current subscription numbers and various deals that they have made (DTV & Comcast) if they just managed their money better. I know I will never be able to prove it but it is my opinion that Tivo blows way too much money on needless crap (R&D for Advertisements and other such BS). They should have been profitable a long time ago IMHO.

Y-ASK


HydePark - Glad you came from behind the voiceless masses and joined the conversation. Welcome...

ummm, it was the ad R&D that sealed the Comcast deal. Without interactive ads there would not be a Comcast deal. That deal gave TiVo 10 million more in R&D money from Comcast and the prospect of long term positive cash flow. Looks like R&D money VERY well spent from a bottom line for the company perspective.

Most ads get a hit rate of less than 1% and if TiVo even hit 1% the advertisers would think they had excellent ROI, especially since it can be measured exactly instead of guesstimated.
and since the other 99% can just hit the FF or 30 sec skip button like they always have and NOT CHANGE ONE DARN THING THAT THEY DO NOw - it is no big deal for the other 98.9%.

now as to the .1% that bitch about seeing a graphic on the screen :rolleyes: You are correct in that TiVo is not going to alter their business plan out of any concern for that .1% :up:

[Y-ASK]

ummm, it was the ad R&D that sealed the Comcast deal. Without interactive ads there would not be a Comcast deal. That deal gave TiVo 10 million more in R&D money from Comcast and the prospect of long term positive cash flow. Looks like R&D money VERY well spent from a bottom line for the company perspective.

Most ads get a hit rate of less than 1% and if TiVo even hit 1% the advertisers would think they had excellent ROI, especially since it can be measured exactly instead of guesstimated.
and since the other 99% can just hit the FF or 30 sec skip button like they always have and NOT CHANGE ONE DARN THING THAT THEY DO NOw - it is no big deal for the other 98.9%.

now as to the .1% that bitch about seeing a graphic on the screen :rolleyes: You are correct in that TiVo is not going to alter their business plan out of any concern for that .1% :up:
Well you sure are good at quoting numbers and percentages but do you have any proof to back up what you say or are you stating opinion? How do you come up with .1% "Bitchy" people? Have you gone around to everyone's house and conducted a survey?

Y-ASK

[RoyK]

ummm, it was the ad R&D that sealed the Comcast deal. Without interactive ads there would not be a Comcast deal. That deal gave TiVo 10 million more in R&D money from Comcast and the prospect of long term positive cash flow. Looks like R&D money VERY well spent from a bottom line for the company perspective.

Most ads get a hit rate of less than 1% and if TiVo even hit 1% the advertisers would think they had excellent ROI, especially since it can be measured exactly instead of guesstimated.
and since the other 99% can just hit the FF or 30 sec skip button like they always have and NOT CHANGE ONE DARN THING THAT THEY DO NOw - it is no big deal for the other 98.9%.

now as to the .1% that bitch about seeing a graphic on the screen :rolleyes: You are correct in that TiVo is not going to alter their business plan out of any concern for that .1% :up:

Are you able to quote a source for those percentages or did you pull them out of your posterior as usual. If you have a legitimate source please clue us in. Most of the surveys I've seen actually run here show more like 50% opposed to this advertising blight. And this is a forum primarily of TiVo devotees.

[akaye]

[SIMON COWELL]
OK, people, there's a lot of messages to read on these forums and I want to make sure my time is well spent.
Let me recap:

Some people object to any ads on Tivo.

Other people are ok with them as long as they're non-intrusive.

We all like our Tivos.

Horse. Dead. Beaten. Anything I missed, or can I ubsubscribe from this thread now?
[/SIMON COWELL]

[ashu]

Are you able to quote a source for those percentages or did you pull them out of your posterior as usual. If you have a legitimate source please clue us in. Most of the surveys I've seen actually run here show more like 50% opposed to this advertising blight. And this is a forum primarily of TiVo devotees.

How many of those 50% actually realize and understand that the ads, AS THEY STAND (no hypothetical slippery slope discussions - that's a cop-out!) DO NOT affect their abilit to skip through ads at 150X fFWD or even with the 30-second skip? I bet the numbers would then be closer to Zeo's guesstimate, than yours :)

Wimpy, sensationalistic bloggers and copycat 'reporters' have blown it WAY out of proportion. And they're merely practicing pandering to the bottom-line (sensationalistic headlines bring in more readers). Ironic!

[ashu]

Horse. Dead. Beaten. Anything I missed, or can I ubsubscribe from this thread now?


Simon may unsubscribe. You may too, if it pleases you. :D

[RoyK]

[SIMON COWELL]
OK, people, there's a lot of messages to read on these forums and I want to make sure my time is well spent.
Let me recap:

Some people object to any ads on Tivo.

Other people are ok with them as long as they're non-intrusive.

We all like our Tivos.

Horse. Dead. Beaten. Anything I missed, or can I ubsubscribe from this thread now?
[/SIMON COWELL]

You are of course free to follow your heart.

[Y-ASK]

Go with the wind to which ever Port of Call you choose, but as long as the Zeo-Horse is still kicking I'm gonna beat it ;).

Y-ASK

[akaye]

Go with the wind to which ever Port of Call you choose, but as long as the Zeo-Horse is still kicking I'm gonna beat it ;).

Y-ASK

NOW it's getting good again.

Zeo, did you hear what Y-Ask called you? Are you going to take that?? ;)

[ashu]

Go with the wind to which ever Port of Call you choose, but as long as the Zeo-Horse is still kicking I'm gonna beat it ;).

Y-ASK

Yup. Mature. Good show. Where's the popcorn? Darn, I've run out.

[Y-ASK]

Geezzee guys... It was a joke... A play on words... Beat a Dead Horse... Get It??? or did my ;) smiley fool you? And to you Ashu... I don't think it was immature, do you? Man you guys need to lightn' up some. Come on Ashu, you live in VA and I in MD, we can meet some where in between and I'll buy you a beer. Better yet, I'll send you a ticket to the next Nationals game on Tuesday Aug. 23rd and I'll buy you a beer there.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

Geezzee guys... It was a joke... A play on words... Beat a Dead Horse... Get It??? or did my ;) smiley fool you? And to you Ashu... I don't think it was immature, do you? Man you guys need to lightn' up some. Come on Ashu, you live in VA and I in MD, we can meet some in between and I'll buy you a beer. Better yet, I'll send you a ticket to the next Nationals game on Tuesday Aug. 23rd and I'll buy you a beer there.

Y-ASK


Y-ASK has been cool about making it a debate/arg without really going fanatic, hoof in mouth on us. ;) I caught his smiley face.

but

you may note that I do not start these threads but reply in them. The percentages are based on my gut feel, of course I have nothing to back them up take them as you like but I highly doubt that any significant percentage is going to truly hate these billboard graphics in action, especially enough to cancel TiVo over. That is what makes me laugh the most about this, very few people have even seen these yet and most of the whining is just easy-to-do forum ranting

It has been stated by the new TiVo CEO himself that interactive ad technology sealed the Comcast deal. That is a fact and I noticed Y-ASK defelected over that ;) issue which kind of deflated his whole post I replied to

[RoyK]

Y-ASK has been cool about making it a debate/arg without really going fanatic, hoof in mouth on us. ;) I caught his smiley face.

but

you may note that I do not start these threads but reply in them. The percentages are based on my gut feel, of course I have nothing to back them up take them as you like but I highly doubt that any significant percentage is going to truly hate these billboard graphics in action, especially enough to cancel TiVo over. That is what makes me laugh the most about this, very few people have even seen these yet and most of the whining is just easy-to-do forum ranting

It has been stated by the new TiVo CEO himself that interactive ad technology sealed the Comcast deal. That is a fact and I noticed Y-ASK defelected over that ;) issue which kind of deflated his whole post I replied to

Got to hand it to you. That was one of the best jobs of back peddling I've ever seen. From 3 significant digits (98.9%) to gut feel backed up by nothing followed by doubts and then stating as fact and not your opinion that the views of those who oppose the ads are ranting whiners.

I'm laughing even harder than you,

[ashu]

I challenge you to even SAY popcorn seriously! My post didn't need a smiley, it included the word 'popcorn'

At least you're not part of the 'backpedalling alert' squad.

And for effect : :)

Nationals, eh? Tempting. You work for 'em? :eek:

[ZeoTiVo]

Got to hand it to you. That was one of the best jobs of back peddling I've ever seen. From 3 significant digits (98.9%) to gut feel backed up by nothing followed by doubts and then stating as fact and not your opinion that the views of those who oppose the ads are ranting whiners.

I'm laughing even harder than you,

yes I am sure my clever ruse at posting percentages in such a manner as to mark them as absolute and an unquestionably inmpeachable source would have fooled many if you had not so brilliantly seen through them and deftly parried me with a riposte that so completely decimated all my posts so all my post now belong to you. I am sure the whole forum is cheering you now :rolleyes:

and I have one thing to say to you

popcorn

[Y-ASK]

Nationals, eh? Tempting. You work for 'em? :eek:
Nope! Just a season ticket holder. After so many games it's hard to find any one that wants to go these days. My kids are just about done with baseball at this point in time. All they ever want to do is eat and drink the $6.00 frozen iceys or the $4.00 pepsi (gag no Coke). Gets kind of expensive after a while and the tickets are not cheap! Two tickets = $60.00 per game... Any way the offer is still on if you choose to accept at no cost to you (except parking $10 or Metro). I mail you the ticket, meet you at the game and buy you a beer.

Y-ASK

[Y-ASK]

It has been stated by the new TiVo CEO himself that interactive ad technology sealed the Comcast deal. That is a fact and I noticed Y-ASK defelected over that ;) issue which kind of deflated his whole post I replied to
That's because, as Jeff Spakoley would say, "Those guys are fags!" :)

Seriously, if what you say is true, let me re-phrase what I said: Tivo could be turning a profit if they just stuck to stand-alone systems with subscriptions. DTV was an added bonus but really if they slimed down the company some and stuck to making the box the best it could be, they would already be at the break even point. All the added new subs over the last year (don't even want to talk about the bogus rebate BS) should have put them well over the top, even with some of the bad R&D decisions they have made. Just my opinion, no facts can be found because that is not what they did.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

That's because, as Jeff Spakoley would say, "Those guys are fags!" :)

Seriously, if what you say is true, let me re-phrase what I said: Tivo could be turning a profit if they just stuck to stand-alone systems with subscriptions. DTV was an added bonus but really if they slimed down the company some and stuck to making the box the best it could be, they would already be at the break even point. All the added new subs over the last year (don't even want to talk about the bogus rebate BS) should have put them well over the top, even with some of the bad R&D decisions they have made. Just my opinion, no facts can be found because that is not what they did.

Y-ASK

actually on this you are correct , in the investors call they did first quarter they stated that they would do away with rebates and other marketing expenses and by doing that they would show a profit based on subscriptions. and the SEC filing showed the big number for rebates and so forth and IIRC if you took that expense out of the equation they would have turned a profit in the first quarter.

their financials are actually in good shape before Comcast deal and they would stick around as a company for quite some time. The problem with a Publicly traded company though in our market economy is GROWTH. without showing growth everybody looks the other way and soon market share erodes on you and you become that old DVR company. TiVo just can not get good growth out of simply selling DVRs - it is still an emerging market and the market research posted here (which is not definitive by any means but good enough for this discussion) showed that it is still an early adopter market. the percent of people planning to buy a DVR was very low (maybe 12% if IIRC) and it needed to be around 20% to be considered a growth market.

the Comcast deal is about growth of market share at the expense of SAs and their better margin on subscriptions. If you could find a way to get that market share GROWTH that Comcast may provide while selling SA TiVos then TiVo, inc. would make you their CEO in a heartbeat :)

[Y-ASK]

the Comcast deal is about growth of market share at the expense of SAs and their better margin on subscriptions. If you could find a way to get that market share GROWTH that Comcast may provide while selling SA TiVos then TiVo, inc. would make you their CEO in a heartbeat :)
Isn't that what the cable card interface is all about? Stand-Alone Tivos with Cable Card interface type tuners and the Tivo software on top. I thought this would allow for further growth in the near future. Maybe not to the extent of the Comcast deal but still a small but steady growth over the next four years or so. And the cable card deal would allow them to go after market share of all the other cable TV providers, not just comcast. Don't needs Ads to make that happen...

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

Isn't that what the cable card interface is all about? Stand-Alone Tivos with Cable Card interface type tuners and the Tivo software on top. I thought this would allow for further growth in the near future. Maybe not to the extent of the Comcast deal but still a small but steady growth over the next four years or so. And the cable card deal would allow them to go after market share of all the other cable TV providers, not just comcast. Don't needs Ads to make that happen...

Y-ASK

yes, but the cable cos. got the FCC to extend the deadline for using cable cards for a year. This let them ignore the real spec of cable card 2 which is 5 tuners and two way and let the first run of cable card 1 which is 1 tuner and no interaction with cable head end stand as the only ratified spec TiVo can use without great risk of the card not being available.

this seriously kludges up the design of the TiVo with cable card and makes it obsolete before it gets out the door. It will be better than the current SA tivo that does analog and needs a cable box and serial cable but like I said it will just not be the high growth of market share that TiVo needs to solidify its place in the market. Once the FCC extended the deadline for cable card use it made the Comcast deal the only way to ensure TiVos continued competitive ability.

now don't get me wrong - I love the fact that TiVo is Stand Alone - I am no fan of being a slave to whatever the Cable co decides to give me AT ALL. look in the threads on the comcast deal and I expressed a real fear tha tthe comcast deal would hurt future SA development and it is still a fear. But it is the competitive landscape that drove TiVo to where it is with ads and Comcast deal not TiVos specific desire to throw in ads and make deals. without the comcast deal there would be more TiVo is dying threads then I hate ads threads.
---------------------------------------------------------------
PS - I also finally saw my first billboard ad for "the skeleton Key"
it was in the upper left corner, lasted about 2 secs at my 2xFF speed I was going and did not in the least interfere with what I was doing to skip over the commercials. I twas in the middle of a bunch of commercials and was only up during the skeleton commcercial.

the only thing Idid different is that I like the new crop of horror thrillers coming out and hit RW to get to the place to hit thumbs up and it went ot the yellow star that has just recently come up for the movie. So I did not watch the trailer again, hit the left arrow to go back to the show I was watching and hit 2xFF again to move on.

So I stand by my, it is no big deal - I would do nothing different if I saw the graphic again and just keep FFing, and it helps TiVo keep on going as a company.

[magicalday]

So I stand by my, it is no big deal - I would do nothing different if I saw the graphic again and just keep FFing, and it helps TiVo keep on going as a company.

There goes ZealotTiVo again... TiVo can do no wrong, no matter how intrusive the ads get.

[ZeoTiVo]

There goes ZealotTiVo again... TiVo can do no wrong, no matter how intrusive the ads get.


well gosh that certainly was a detailed rebuttal

and I beleive I was pointing out the graphic, that I have actually seen now, is very NONintrusive. Have you actually seen a billboard ad and are rebutting from actual fact :rolleyes:

[dylanemcgregor]

So I have been seeing a few of the TiVomatic ads lately, but I click on everyone and get absolutely no extra information. I have very basic cable these days, and do not get Discovery. Are the yellowstar ads still broadcast on Discovery late at night? I thought I had read something about TiVo switching to another channel...?

Anyway, I know a bunch of people would be estatic to have no more Yellowstar ads, but I like them and am bummed that I do not getto enjoy this aspect of TiVo anymore. :(

[RoyK]

There goes ZealotTiVo again... TiVo can do no wrong, no matter how intrusive the ads get.

Zeo has seen the ads. They don't bother him. Many others feel the same way and still others don't. Each is entitled to express his or her own opinions whether pro or con.

[gonzotek]

Zeo has seen the ads. They don't bother him. Many others feel the same way and still others don't. Each is entitled to express his or her own opinions whether pro or con.Agreed, and further, they should be free to express it without having their usernames mangled into insults. magicalday, this forum has rules (http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=217934) against flaming and name-calling.

[Y-ASK]

Agreed, and further, they should be free to express it without having their usernames mangled into insults. magicalday, this forum has rules (http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=217934) against flaming and name-calling.
Unless, of course, it's used with tongue-in-cheek, right Zeo-Horse :) err I mean ZeoTivo?

Y-ASK

[ashu]

Nope! Just a season ticket holder. After so many games it's hard to find any one that wants to go these days. My kids are just about done with baseball at this point in time. All they ever want to do is eat and drink the $6.00 frozen iceys or the $4.00 pepsi (gag no Coke). Gets kind of expensive after a while and the tickets are not cheap! Two tickets = $60.00 per game... Any way the offer is still on if you choose to accept at no cost to you (except parking $10 or Metro). I mail you the ticket, meet you at the game and buy you a beer.

Y-ASK

Kind as that offer is, I'll have to decline, for now. Thanks.

But come out to one of the informal meets we have in DC all the time, it isn't all about TiVo, the Gadget, all the time!

[ZeoTiVo]

Unless, of course, it's used with tongue-in-cheek, right Zeo-Horse :) err I mean ZeoTivo?

Y-ASK

yes, magicalday is a troll and I already let the mods know he is back. YAK err I mean Y-ASK is just funning around while arguing/debating the topics ;)

[magicalday]

yes, magicalday is a troll and I already let the mods know he is back. YAK err I mean Y-ASK is just funning around while arguing/debating the topics ;) Trollhood is in the eys of the beholder. But I'd rather be a troll than a zealot.

[dt9]

Finally made the jump into the Tivo community, and I was liking the service so much I that I considered a second device....until the tagged ads were announced.

Why should I pay $13/month for even more ads and marketing lists on top of the $50/month from cable?

I cancelled the service and returned the Tivo while I still could. :(

It is unfortunate that Tivo has headed this direction.

[ZeoTiVo]

Why should I pay $13/month for even more ads and marketing lists on top of the $50/month from cable?

I cancelled the service and returned the Tivo while I still could. :(

It is unfortunate that Tivo has headed this direction.

a graphic ove top of an existing ad is not more ads just an offer to find out more about the ad that is already there.

unfortunate for you that you do not have TiVo to enjoy

[Bib]

unfortunate for you that you do not have TiVo to enjoy

That's the truth, and well said. To be honest, I never noticed these ads until it became an issue here. I think if we look at the big picture, these ads are nothing more than fly sh*t in the pepper. Just keep thinking of all the ads you're NOT seeing, and then ask if these even matter.

Bib

[ZeoTiVo]

fly sh*t in the pepper

had not heard that saying before, how appropriate :p

[RoyK]

That's the truth, and well said. To be honest, I never noticed these ads until it became an issue here. I think if we look at the big picture, these ads are nothing more than fly sh*t in the pepper. Just keep thinking of all the ads you're NOT seeing, and then ask if these even matter.

Bib

If you don't mind fly sh*t in your pepper its ok with me. I try to avoid it myself.

[ZeoTiVo]

If you don't mind fly sh*t in your pepper its ok with me. I try to avoid it myself.

and just how do you avoid it ? That err stuff would be everywhere. Do you put your pepper under a microscope ?

this is where the saying is so appropriate.
If I had a plate of food with 5 flys on it , I would likely stop eating it.
if a couple of flys are buzzing the picnic I would still eat.

same with TiVo - if there were yellow star ads on every menu and/or I could not FF like I did before - I would stop using it.
one yellow star and just a graphic over top the same ad - no big deal to me.

TiVo inc in this saying is like a person throwing a picnic, as long as they do reasonable things like keep ads down like one yellow star and graphics only over the ad already there - then people will come to the picnic.
But if the ylet the fly problem get out of hand then people will stop coming as the pepper beocmes more suspect ;)

[RoyK]

and just how do you avoid it ?
If I had a plate of food with 5 flys on it , I would likely stop eating it.

If I had a plate of food with 1 or 2 flys on it I'd leave the restaurant never to return.

[ZeoTiVo]

If I had a plate of food with 1 or 2 flys on it I'd leave the restaurant never to return.


well that is a restaurant, not an outdoor picnic with one or two flies buzzing around - not being served to you.

you want a restaurant then only record the premium channels where there are no commercials

[RoyK]

well that is a restaurant, not an outdoor picnic with one or two flies buzzing around - not being served to you.

you want a restaurant then only record the premium channels where there are no commercials

Don't know about you but I'm paying restaurant prices for my TiVo service. I expect my pepper (and plate) to be uncontaminated by the restaurant.

[ZeoTiVo]

Don't know about you but I'm paying restaurant prices for my TiVo service. I expect my pepper (and plate) to be uncontaminated by the restaurant.

yes, ads were a big surprise to us all :eek:

[gtan]

Don't know about you but I'm paying restaurant prices for my TiVo service. I expect my pepper (and plate) to be uncontaminated by the restaurant.

I want to know where this restaurant is that has all you can eat for life for $299.

Last week I ate at a place that charged $24 for one meal and there was a big advertisment on the inside of the bathroom stall door.

[RoyK]

Last week I ate at a place that charged $24 for one meal and there was a big advertisment on the inside of the bathroom stall door.

:rolleyes:

[chessplayer]

Last week I ate at a place that charged $24 for one meal and there was a big advertisment on the inside of the bathroom stall door. For what, a laxative? :)

[gtan]

For what, a laxative? :)

For condos "starting at $60,000", which sounded pretty good until you read the smaller print. It was a time share of a condo. For $60,000 you could get the worst, smallest condo for an off season week.

[Bright BOX]

I havn't noticed the ads.

[thwart]

Tivo subscribers should not complain about ads popping up. Tivo isn't able to survive on subscriptions alone. Ads are going to be what keeps the Tivo in your living room in the long run. That and third-party applications that bring popular services to the Tivo masses. Just like when programmers outside of a video game company create mods to expand on an already successful game. Service providers can extend Tivo's functionality by having programmers write an application on top of HME that exposes their services. People like me are going to go even one step further and provide an even easier way for end-users to expose their services so they won't need a programmer to do so. Like Ebay provides a way for brick and morters to bring their wares to your computer room, Tivo will bring their services and wares to the living room, kitchen, and the bedroom. People like me are not willing to wait for the smart home of the future, I want to make Tivo the center of todays smart home!

[bgates90210]

Hopefully TIVO will be around for a long time

[UGLYWoman]

I completely agree what are we to do when things like this happen?

[jlb]

I just started seeing a few. They don't bother me at all. In fact, depending on the product or whatever is being offered, might just get me to say "yes" to the little window and get more info. I'm am totally fine with these.

[pjg061073]

HI... can I sign on to the web and set up a seasons pass for my R10..
i.e. I'm in California visiting and realize something is on I want to record...Can I acces my machine in NC from CA.. ??

Thanks for any input.... Peter

[megazone]

The R10 is a DirecTV machine - so no, you can't. DirecTV disabled the network features on their units.

Unless you hack the system and load new software, you can't do anything online with that unit.

[atavar]

I rather agree... I came out vehemently against the idea, but in practice I have yet to notice the ads, so they must have been implemented unobtrusively.. they aren't bothering me..

[bobn]

Did anyone else catch "The Bitch is Back" on Las Vegas? I actually watched the second GM commercial (and enjoyed it)! If DTV and GM want to do more placements like that, then TIVO users will likely watch more commercials. Any way we all know that the cash flow is what pays for innovative TV. No proven payback from commercials, no more content. As long as we're a small minority, we'll be ignored. Once we really get their attention......

Everyone said that the VCR was gonna kill broadcast TV. It only killed BetaMax. Makes me chill when I think of my HDTIVO!

[dgh]

Everyone said that the VCR was gonna kill broadcast TV. It only killed BetaMax.

Betamaxes are VCRs. :)