Let the CES RumorMongering begin! [Text View] - Page 2

TiVoPhish

01-06-2006, 01:31 AM

DCIFRTHS

01-06-2006, 01:40 AM

No.

The only thing to missing as far as interesting card capability is multistream, which is due out mid 2006. But since you only have two tuners, and can put in two cc1.0 cards, that is more of a convenience only feature.

The only thing 2.0 gets you is interactive access to the cable company's proprietary network

Maybe you feel a great urge for doing horse betting, Shopping network bidding, PPV or VOD from a proprietary closed network. If you feel like shopping in a store where they only have one brand of everything, then maybe 2.0 is for you.

But I can get all that stuff from a dandy non proprietary network where prices are not controlled by one entity. Maybe you've heard of it. It's called the internet.

2.0? Thanks, but no thanks

Interesting. Do you think that if a 2.0 Cablecard is used that this will replace the TiVo interface, a mixture of both, or a clear cut choice?

Justin Thyme

01-06-2006, 01:40 AM

I went looking for more info on the e-sata standard and found this page (http://www.addonics.com/products/host_controller/ads3gx4r5-e.asp), with this puzzling quote:

What do they know that we don't, and how long have they known it?You are right. Probably the person was thinking Moto, and wrote Tivo instead or perhaps they were using Tivo as a generic term for all DVRs. The latest Motorolla DCT-6412 has a SATA connector. So does the Sci-Atl 8300. Not all providers enable them though.

ZeoTiVo

01-06-2006, 01:41 AM

From Cablecard 2.0 specification:

- - - - -

1) The CableCard has a new hardware version added which can handle multiple streams, for PIP and multituner DVR. Cards can include an optional cablemodem for communicating with the headend. These changes are almost a non-issue for Consumers, since replacement cards are cheap or supplied by cableco.

2) CableCard "HOSTS" (microcontroller & firmware in your TV supporting CC) will come in 3 'flavors'... A) Unidirectional - no modem B) Bidirectional - modem in CC C) Bidirectional - modem in host.

So... if your TV has a built in modem to communicate with the headend, OR, it supports (possible firmware upgrade) such a modem IN the CableCard, then your TV will be able to be upgraded to CableCard 2.0. If NOT, then you're limited to 1-way CC forever.

- - - - -

How would you interpret that as relative to TiVo?

they would rely on a modem in the Cable Card itself and would have to add software to utilize it and a GUI to go with it. The kicker is that the GUI would have to be generic enough for all the cable providers. Most likely this could be done to a limited extent - just like on a cable card TV - but what if cablevison provides interactive traffic cams as a premium feature to have something that generic 3rd parties do not provide for?

so most likely PPV and VOD could come on line in a generic way. list of items and the cable company knows who you are and does the billing already but TiVo should not get any cut of that and wont so the incentive is solely to keep you the customer happy by giving you access to the anime from cablevison. Good incentive for a generic interface but not so much for a lot of effort on it.

TiVoPhish

01-06-2006, 01:43 AM

ps for Zeo...

Since we were talking about the SA (Scientific-Atlanta) 8300HD earlier, there was some news from someone who was at CES (posted on another forum) that might interest you... it ALSO includes TiVo "news" (or at least point of interest)

- - - - - -

The 8300 is also the platform for the DVD unit (MCP-100) soon to hit the market (done deal). It IS the 8300, as is, with a DVD burner added. This was cool! Anything with copy free will play back in any DVD player, and anything with content protection will playback on CPRM players (somewhat common). It WILL burn HD to DVD, but since there is no standard format chosen at this time, it will only be playable on the unit it was recorded on. The future direct to disk technology for downloading movies, games, CD's, etc sounds cool once implemented. The Home media option was also cool. Playing back files from a laptop, etc, but no timeframes were given for that technology. I have a seperate thread for the MCP-100, so I will go on more over there.
The multiroom for sending SD is gaining ground in many cable systems, but users want the HD version. SA is close, but are investigating better (more stable) methods for sending multiple HD streams in real world conditions (crappy wiring in homes).
The live cable on the phone demo was actually really much better than I imagined. With the network support in place, the rollout seems to be a done deal. Sprint, and all the major cable companies, which already announced the feature, are expecting a huge penetration in the market.

To me, the biggest news for you guys, was the OCAP integration, supported by and displayed by SA. OCAP (Open Cable) is the gateway that Tivo needs to run their software on cable system STB's. It also means that everyone else in the game is writing software too. There were demonstrations from Moxi, Diego, and a few others, with their own IPG and interactive software. These companies are meeting with corporate cable cos trying to sell their version, instead of the standard SA supplied IPG. SA is right there promoting and supporting them. I expect to see new IPG integration, games, better callerID (with digital phone) local business services, etc, etc, relatively soon. The new javascript apps are looking great.

source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6858142&&#post6858142
- - - - -

they would rely on a modem in the Cable Card itself and would have to add software to utilize it and a GUI to go with it. The kicker is that the GUI would have to be generic enough for all the cable providers. Most likely this could be done to a limited extent - just like on a cable card TV - but what if cablevison provides interactive traffic cams as a premium feature to have something that generic 3rd parties do not provide for?

But would it rely on the modem for CC 2.0 support if the box has already been designed to be CC 2.0 ready, or CC 2.0 update-ready (via that modem you're referring to). Does that make sense?

so most likely PPV and VOD could come on line in a generic way. list of items and the cable company knows who you are and does the billing already but TiVo should not get any cut of that and wont so the incentive is solely to keep you the customer happy by giving you access to the anime from cablevison. Good incentive for a generic interface but not so much for a lot of effort on it.

Not a direct cut, but a cut that keeps customers. I mean, Anime On Demand may not be the best example, but HBO on demand is (which has been becoming pretty popular around my parts). I'm not even a big fan of VOD in general, but there ARE things I'd like to have access to ... and I'm sure most consumers would. A lot of people seem to agree VOD is definitely going to be something the average consumer will want, so it makes sense to me TiVo would do everything they can to provide it (through CC 2.0 or their own VOD service or ____?)

Justin Thyme

01-06-2006, 01:47 AM

That's a fair comment, but for that I could buy a cheap Series II TiVo and run it side by side with my Comcast Moto :) TiVo.Not if you want HD content, you aren't. Also, much of the content on the net will be transfered in Mpeg4 form to save bandwidth. There will have to be a downconverter- I think it likely Tivo will one day create one of those, but all we know about is Mpeg2->mpeg4 converter needed for PSP and iPod, not the other way around (could be, could be, but just wishful thinking now).

Further, I think it reasonable to expect that significant improvements would be made to network transfer speed- that is, I wouldn't be at all surprized if a Tivo3 MRV took 5 minutes for an hour long show on a wired network.

DCIFRTHS

01-06-2006, 01:48 AM

I don't know, it may actually mean that both are closer than we've been led to believe. Keep in mind that there are probably about 100,000 Christmas 40-hour Series 2 boxes still to be activated. If TiVo were to start flaunting a new box (or boxes) that would be available, say, next month, they might get a lot of returns.

As for Comcast, well, DirecTV has been making a lot of noise at the show, and revenge is a dish best served cold...

....

Hmmm. I like the way you think.

DCIFRTHS

01-06-2006, 01:49 AM

.... They could not say whether the CableCard slot would support CC 2.0, but assured me that even if it ran CC 1.0 it would not suffer the same glitches that CC 1.0 has. (Not sure how they can make such a claim, but whatever.) ....

What glitches are there in CC 1.0?

Thanks

ZeoTiVo

01-06-2006, 02:04 AM

But would it rely on the modem for CC 2.0 support if the box has already been designed to be CC 2.0 ready, or CC 2.0 update-ready (via that modem you're referring to). Does that make sense?

Not a direct cut, but a cut that keeps customers. I mean, Anime On Demand may not be the best example, but HBO on demand is (which has been becoming pretty popular around my parts). I'm not even a big fan of VOD in general, but there ARE things I'd like to have access to ... and I'm sure most consumers would. A lot of people seem to agree VOD is definitely going to be something the average consumer will want, so it makes sense to me TiVo would do everything they can to provide it (through CC 2.0 or their own VOD service or ____?)

it is the cablemodem embedded in the cable card 2.0 itself. it is the cablemodem that communicates to the head end and identifies you and whatever request. so sure simple PPV and VOD can be supported assuming the final ratified standard does not veer from what TiVo designed for.(most likely wont) but for all the new fangled stuff for the SA 8000 boxes you posted above - if any of that requires two way how is TiVo supposed to generically support that.

short answer it does not - it competes instead on the less generic stuff by providing much the same but from its own sources. perhaps even with "PPV and VOD" via internet downloads from google, Yahoo or MCE box.

and so for me talking to the cable company holds little interest as TiVo seems more open to the coming new ways to get content and I read the stuff for the SciAtl box as ctachup and TiVo does 80% of it already in a version 1 form and is getting ready to put out a much better version 2 of it this year.

TiVoPhish

01-06-2006, 02:24 AM

it is the cablemodem embedded in the cable card 2.0 itself. it is the cablemodem that communicates to the head end and identifies you and whatever request. so sure simple PPV and VOD can be supported assuming the final ratified standard does not veer from what TiVo designed for.(most likely wont) but for all the new fangled stuff for the SA 8000 boxes you posted above - if any of that requires two way how is TiVo supposed to generically support that.

I understand what you're saying... kinda... I did realize the modem was in the cablecard itself (as one of the options)... was wondering if it's possible TiVo thought about that ahead of time and made the unit capable of connecting to get the updates in a less generic way... (almost like a separate part of the system that couple accept the updates and interpret)... I don't know exactly how to explain what I mean... so I'll skip it ;)

short answer it does not - it competes instead on the less generic stuff by providing much the same but from its own sources. perhaps even with "PPV and VOD" via internet downloads from google, Yahoo or MCE box.

I agree that would be appealing... though it's all still a "perhaps" at this point. Which I suppose is also where we are with CC 2.0 support (more than generic).

and so for me talking to the cable company holds little interest as TiVo seems more open to the coming new ways to get content and I read the stuff for the SciAtl box as ctachup and TiVo does 80% of it already in a version 1 form and is getting ready to put out a much better version 2 of it this year.

Well you kind-of HAVE to talk to the cable company if you want the benefits of a CC unit ;) -- but I do hear what you're saying. Regardless, I would have had to make the jump to cable, since Dish was probably never going to offer a TiVo solution, or be reasonably compatible with one. It would have been silly for me not to take the free 8300HD from Cablevision.

Problem is, SA is already offering the dual tuner HD with SATA support, and the new unit at CES also has network connection ability (though nothing has been officially announced yet as what it does. Please trust me, I don't think the SA units are better than TiVo, but I do have to recognize that right NOW they will do what I want... time-shift TV watching, recording programs (along with "seasons passes"), dual tuner, SATA support and most importantly HDTV. I can't say the TiVo HD will be "better"... it sounds like there will be tradeoffs... and maybe perfectly acceptable ones. And they absolutely could be in TiVo's favor.

Do keep in mind what I've said about the SA box... the network support, the OCAP support, the fact they provide already to Comcast... and the possibility TiVo software COULD (could) be pushed to those boxes as well. If it's possible they'll be doing so for the Panasonic and Samsung boxes, it's also possible for the SA boxes.

Like I've said before, most people don't talk about this stuff, let alone understand it (and I sure don't understand all of it)... all they care about is that it works. I want to HOPE that TiVo stays the best solution for all of it! Right now for me, it just can't be... but that doesn't mean I've abandoned ship.... just a Phish taking a swim ;)

megazone

01-06-2006, 03:39 AM

Looks temporary to me. It actually has a USB logo next to the connector on the back. Might be a stock enclosure refitted for demo purposes. The design doesn't match either.
Yeah, I caught the USB logo on the enclosure, but it is SATA. The answer I got was "It is just a prototype."

And there are no plans to support USB drives, I asked.

ChuckyBox

01-06-2006, 09:56 AM

Yeah, I caught the USB logo on the enclosure, but it is SATA. The answer I got was "It is just a prototype."

And there are no plans to support USB drives, I asked.

Hey, Zone, I think I speak for everyone when I say many, many thanks for your work yesterday. You are a hero. Not only were you the first person to provide any real information about the Series 3, but your report from the TiVo booth was far, far more valuable that what Engadget gave us. At a time when the media were in a total information glut overload meltdown, and TiVo wasn't saying much, you came through for us.

Thanks again.

(Someone else at the show posted in this thread, too. Unfortunately it is on a previous page and I can't scroll back to get the name. But thanks to you, too.)

Bierboy

01-06-2006, 10:11 AM

Hey, Zone, I think I speak for everyone when I say many, many thanks for your work yesterday. You are a hero. Not only were you the first person to provide any real information about the Series 3, but your report from the TiVo booth was far, far more valuable that what Engadget gave us. At a time when the media were in a total information glut overload meltdown, and TiVo wasn't saying much, you came through for us....Not only far, far more valuable, but ACCURATE. Engadget was totally wrong.

dt_dc

01-06-2006, 11:08 AM

it is the cablemodem embedded in the cable card 2.0 itself.I did realize the modem was in the cablecard itself (as one of the options)Sigh ...

No, no, no, no ... no.

Cable modems (and other hardware required for two-way functionality) are NOT embedded in 2.0 cards ... or part of 2.0 cards ... or in the cards ... or however you want to describe it.

The cable modem (and QPSK modulator and OCAP environment and other harware required for two-way functionality) are part of a HOST ... for example a DVR or TV or STB or whatever ...

I would suggest reading the OpenCable 2.0 Host Specifications:
http://www.opencable.com/downloads/specs/OC-SP-HOST2.0-CFR-I06-050708.pdf

Specifically ... you can look at pg. 14 which pretty clearly lays out what must be included in the HOST ... and what the role of the CableCard is ...

The cards ONLY handle decryption / encryption ...

And there are ONLY two types of cards:
SCards - Single Stream Cards - can decrypt a single stream
MCards - Multi Stream Cards - can decrypt multiple streams

All the things required for bidirectional functionality ... that's ALL requirements on the HOST.

If a HOST has a QAM tuner, QPSK demodulator, and a few other goodies ... it can be a one-way CableCard host.

If a HOST has the above AND a cable modem, QPSK modulator, an OCAP environment, and a few other goodies ... it can be a two-way CableCard host.

One-way vs. Two-way ... the differences are in the HOST ... not in the cards.

ack_thbbft

01-06-2006, 11:20 AM

What glitches are there in CC 1.0?

Thanks
Many owners of CC 1.0 setups, including myself, have learned that CC 1.0 is buggier than a bait shop. For example:

* Digital channels often go out, requiring you to reset the TV (which also means losing any user-defined presets). I've seen this reported on Sony and Mitsubishi TVs (particularly since I was considering those two brands at the time I bought), so I assume it is actually a CC issue.

* When a CC firmware update is being downloaded from the cable provider it can render your TV completely unusable until it is finished (you can't even watch other sources on the TV, it completely powers down). In my own experience, the CC firmware update never finished, and I had to have a new card installed before I could use my TV again. (At first I thought my TV was defective, but the cable provider's supervisor confirmed it was a known CC issue.)

* TV guides downloaded via CC are often not updated with correct programming information. (Thank goodness TiVo keeps it's guide more reliable, for the most part.)

Anyway, the CC 2.0 spec is supposed to address many of these issues, which is why I hope the new Series 3 TiVo will fully support it. But, as usual at these events, I was given the standard "can't say, still under development" schpiel.

Bierboy

01-06-2006, 11:42 AM

I haven't seen this posted yet, but I am assuming that, since TiVo is touting "up to 300 hours of recording space", that would mean "up to 45 hours of HD recording space." My calculations are based on the Sony DHG units which boast 30/200 and 60/400 in their HDD250/500 models. That translates to a factor of .15 (HD/SD). Has TiVo said anything specifically about HD recording capacities?

ZeoTiVo

01-06-2006, 12:04 PM

All the things required for bidirectional functionality ... that's ALL requirements on the HOST.

If a HOST has a QAM tuner, QPSK demodulator, and a few other goodies ... it can be a one-way CableCard host.

If a HOST has the above AND a cable modem, QPSK modulator, an OCAP environment, and a few other goodies ... it can be a two-way CableCard host.

One-way vs. Two-way ... the differences are in the HOST ... not in the cards.

oh sorry. Typing late last night - I thought it was your post DT_DC where it was said the CC 2.0 could have a cablemodem on it for bi-directional. I wnet with it as some mew part of the wrangling over CC 2.

so are you saying the TiVo DVR would need an OCAP environment to do bidrectional? Could that just be java code running on the TiVo ?

dt_dc

01-06-2006, 12:23 PM

oh sorry. Typing late last night - I thought it was your post DT_DC where it was said the CC 2.0 could have a cablemodem on it for bi-directional. I wnet with it as some mew part of the wrangling over CC 2.

so are you saying the TiVo DVR would need an OCAP environment to do bidrectional? Could that just be java code running on the TiVo ?I'm really starting to dislike the "CableCard 2.0" moniker as it's a bit ... misleading and seems to lead to these kinds of misinterpretations ...

But anyway ...

Yes ... under the most recent CableLabs specs (OpenCable Host Device 2.0) ... for a Tivo (or any other host) to provide two-way / bidirectional service it would need:

All the hardware for one-way / unidirectional services AND the following (which are NOT required for one-way services) ...
+ Cable Modem (DOCSIS)
+ QPSK Modulator
+ OCAP environment

That's all in the host (Tivo) ... not the card(s).

Yes ... you could implement an OCAP environment purely as software middleware running on the CPU. But ... like a JVM ... or MPEG encoding ... etc ... I don't think that's going to be the most desireable way to go for CE devices. What's cheaper and faster ... an embedded JVM on a chip or a CPU running a software JVM? An MPEG encoding chip or MPEG encoding software on the CPU?

And then ... which is cheaper and faster ... software OCAP middleware running on the CPU ... or an embedded OCAP middleware chip?

And of course if your looking at a bunch of CPUs / products already deployed that you may want to upgrade ... well ... are those CPUs powerful enough to do all the other functions they need to do AND run an OCAP middleware stack? Oh ... and if so ... then why the heck did you overpower (and overcharge) for the original system in the first place?

shepler76

01-06-2006, 12:25 PM

Any word if TiVo will have a Non-HD CC box? It would be great if they did, I only need 1 HD box but would stil like dual tuners and be able to receive digital cable in one of my other rooms without have to pay for an additional HD box at that price.

ZeoTiVo

01-06-2006, 12:29 PM

I'm really starting to dislike the "CableCard 2.0" moniker as it's a bit ... misleading and seems to lead to these kinds of misinterpretations ...

But anyway ...

Yes ... under the most recent CableLabs specs (OpenCable Host Device 2.0) ... for a Tivo (or any other host) to provide two-way / bidirectional service it would need:

All the hardware for one-way / unidirectional services AND the following (which are NOT required for one-way services) ...
+ Cable Modem (DOCSIS)
+ QPSK Modulator
+ OCAP environment

That's all in the host (Tivo) ... not the card(s).

Yes ... you could implement an OCAP environment purely as software middleware running on the CPU. But ... like a JVM ... or MPEG encoding ... etc ... I don't think that's going to be the most desireable way to go for CE devices. What's cheaper and faster ... an embedded JVM on a chip or a CPU running a software JVM? An MPEG encoding chip or MPEG encoding software on the CPU?

And of course ... software OCAP middleware running on the CPU ... or an embedded OCAP middleware chip ...

thanks for the clarity on this :up:
the Java thought from me was jsut along the lines of can TiVo load an update for what bidirectional will be if/when they ever decide to support it. The engineering details of how to do it efficiently have perhaps been worked out in the box, perhaps not. I notice NO open the lid pictures of this new series 3 ;)

dt_dc

01-06-2006, 12:40 PM

the Java thought from me was jsut along the lines of can TiVo load an update for what bidirectional will be if/when they ever decide to support it.Yes ... and it's a good thought ...

Just keep in mind that just because it can be done on a CPU doesn't neccesarily mean it can be done on this particular CPU. CPUs in CE devices aren't quite the same as those in your desktop.

Personally though ... I wouldn't hold my breath for unidirectional hosts being designed for 'upgradeability' to bidirectional functionality. Too many upfront costs that would have to be added to the price of the unit ... with no guarauntee that it would ever be possible (bidirectional is still in flux).

lajohn27

01-06-2006, 12:49 PM

In terms of CPU, I've already heard a rumor mill saying this box is 'Intel Inside' - (or will be) which is of course a huge change and no doubt an increase in processing power.

ZeoTiVo

01-06-2006, 12:54 PM

In terms of CPU, I've already heard a rumor mill saying this box is 'Intel Inside' - (or will be) which is of course a huge change and no doubt an increase in processing power.

yah megazone, yell hey that girl is topless over there and quick open that sucker up and snap some pictures :) just kidding -- sort of :D

ChuckyBox

01-06-2006, 01:54 PM

There is a thread about the Series 3 box over on digg (http://www.digg.com/hardware/Photos_and_information_on_new_TiVo_Series3_w_CableCard_HD) and someone posted:

I am getting a Series3 BOX from TiVo in a week or so (part of a BETA testing program) and ill be posting the reviews and images of everthing about the unit on Skatter Tech...

Now this seems hard to believe because 1) it doesn't seem like TiVo is ready to beta test this box (comment, megazone?) and 2) I would think TiVo would be a bit more careful in their hardware testing than to give a box to some jackass who would post everything on a web site.

On the other hand, the guy seems semi-legit. If the Series 3 really goes to beta next week, then it is probably coming out sooner than mid-to-late 2006.

nhaigh

01-06-2006, 01:56 PM

There is a thread about the Series 3 box over on digg (http://www.digg.com/hardware/Photos_and_information_on_new_TiVo_Series3_w_CableCard_HD) and someone posted:

Now this seems hard to believe because 1) it doesn't seem like TiVo is ready to beta test this box (comment, megazone?) and 2) I would think TiVo would be a bit more careful in their hardware testing than to give a box to some jackass who would post everything on a web site.

On the other hand, the guy seems semi-legit. If the Series 3 really goes to beta next week, then it is probably coming out sooner than mid-to-late 2006.

IMHO there is no way a Beta tester would be doing this. It doesn't mean there is no Beta underway but it does mean the guys claim is BS.

dmdeane

01-06-2006, 03:05 PM

IMHO there is no way a Beta tester would be doing this. It doesn't mean there is no Beta underway but it does mean the guys claim is BS.Or maybe he's a very stupid, and soon to be ex-, Beta tester.

TiVoPhish

01-06-2006, 03:15 PM

Yes ... and it's a good thought ...

Just keep in mind that just because it can be done on a CPU doesn't neccesarily mean it can be done on this particular CPU. CPUs in CE devices aren't quite the same as those in your desktop.

Personally though ... I wouldn't hold my breath for unidirectional hosts being designed for 'upgradeability' to bidirectional functionality. Too many upfront costs that would have to be added to the price of the unit ... with no guarauntee that it would ever be possible (bidirectional is still in flux).

dtdc and zeo -- I appreciate your back and forth about this... the way dt explained it was kinda (sorta) the way I understood it, and was a bit how I was trying to phrase the question to zeo about upgradeability -- but not being anywhere near an expert in cablecards or STBes, it's all just abstract concepts to me. Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

Kanyon71

01-06-2006, 03:21 PM

I seriously doubt this person is a Beta Tester. I don't think Tivo would just openly give out these new boxes to people without knowing VERY well what they are likely to do with it. Not to mention he would be under a strict NDA so he would be nailed the instant they found out about it. Just my thoughts though.

Bierboy

01-06-2006, 03:22 PM

Or maybe he's a very stupid, and soon to be ex-, Beta tester.And, of course, since TiVo folk (employees) watch and post on these forums, I'd say he is definitely now an EX-beta tester (if he was one in the first place).

MichaelK

01-06-2006, 03:31 PM

Sigh ...

No, no, no, no ... no.

Cable modems (and other hardware required for two-way functionality) are NOT embedded in 2.0 cards ... or part of 2.0 cards ... or in the cards ... or however you want to describe it.

The cable modem (and QPSK modulator and OCAP environment and other harware required for two-way functionality) are part of a HOST ... for example a DVR or TV or STB or whatever ...

I would suggest reading the OpenCable 2.0 Host Specifications:
http://www.opencable.com/downloads/specs/OC-SP-HOST2.0-CFR-I06-050708.pdf

Specifically ... you can look at pg. 14 which pretty clearly lays out what must be included in the HOST ... and what the role of the CableCard is ...

The cards ONLY handle decryption / encryption ...

And there are ONLY two types of cards:
SCards - Single Stream Cards - can decrypt a single stream
MCards - Multi Stream Cards - can decrypt multiple streams

All the things required for bidirectional functionality ... that's ALL requirements on the HOST.

If a HOST has a QAM tuner, QPSK demodulator, and a few other goodies ... it can be a one-way CableCard host.

If a HOST has the above AND a cable modem, QPSK modulator, an OCAP environment, and a few other goodies ... it can be a two-way CableCard host.

One-way vs. Two-way ... the differences are in the HOST ... not in the cards.

dt_dc
Need some help understanding cablecard.

I have read all i can find at cablelabs website.

I still dont entirely follow.

is an M-card bidirectional(or uni, or whatever we need for interactive stuff)?

Is the M-card cable labs talks about 2.0? I see there is a standard for 2.0 that IS FINAL (or as finalized as the 1.0 standard)- but they only seem to talk about s or m cards not 1.0 or 2.0 cards?

they told the FCC the M-cards are essetnially done wand will be deployed widespread by mid year. SO if an M-card is bi direntcional and can do interactive then this is all done- no?

Also- it seems the CEA has not agreed to the 2.0 standzard but that many CE companies on their own have. So doesn't that mean it's essentially agreed upon in the real world?

ZeoTiVo

01-06-2006, 04:32 PM

dt_dc
Need some help understanding cablecard.

I have read all i can find at cablelabs website.

I still dont entirely follow.

is an M-card bidirectional(or uni, or whatever we need for interactive stuff)?

Is the M-card cable labs talks about 2.0? I see there is a standard for 2.0 that IS FINAL (or as finalized as the 1.0 standard)- but they only seem to talk about s or m cards not 1.0 or 2.0 cards?

they told the FCC the M-cards are essetnially done wand will be deployed widespread by mid year. SO if an M-card is bi direntcional and can do interactive then this is all done- no?

Also- it seems the CEA has not agreed to the 2.0 standzard but that many CE companies on their own have. So doesn't that mean it's essentially agreed upon in the real world?

well lets see if DT_TC clarified me correctly or not ;)

the Scard is a single stream of decrypted signal

the Mcard is a multistreams of decrypted signal

the 1.0 standard was all about the card and how it would decrypt a stream, no bidirectional talk at all and the number of streams were not necessarily limited to 1 by the CC 1 standard.

now CC 2 standard is about the parts in the HOST that will allow bidirectional communication for VOD or whatever. It does not change the card itself or if it does it is very little. The cable labs people think the CC2 standard they have is just fine and they all agree on it. The consumer electronics group though that needs to ratify it is crying foul at the things the CC2 standard says a host has to do. So a standard exists but the two groups are at odds with no compromise in sight at the moment.

Do I finally get this DT-DC ? :)

lajohn27

01-06-2006, 05:15 PM

As for the beta testing.. It is *possible* that this box could be going to test phase sooner rather than later.

dt_dc

01-06-2006, 05:43 PM

is an M-card bidirectional(or uni, or whatever we need for interactive stuff)?The cards are not "directional" at all. You can plug an MCard into a (theoretical, not yet available) bidirectional host ... and it will work. You can also plug an SCard into a (theoretical, not yet available) bidirectional host ... and it will work.

There is nothing about the cards that allows for (or prohibits) bidirectional functionality. An MCard will work for interactive stuff ... so will an SCard.Is the M-card cable labs talks about 2.0?This is why I'm starting to dislike the "CableCard 1.0" and "CableCard 2.0" tags. There's no real easy way to answer this. There's a whole host of specs (Cards, Interfaces, Hosts, Copy Protection, etc etc etc) AND there's also the federal regs and what cable companies are required to support ... when people say "CableCard 1.0" they are usually referring to a specific slice of all that (basically, what we have now) and when people say "CableCard 2.0" they are usually referring to a specific slice of all that (basically, what it was thought the "next" iteration would look like).

Anyway ... the MCards are MCards. No 1.0 or 2.0 about them (technically). Although they are (part of) what people generally refer to as "2.0". But ... they are only a part.they told the FCC the M-cards are essetnially done wand will be deployed widespread by mid year. SO if an M-card is bi direntcional and can do interactive then this is all done- no?No.

The MCards should be coming mid year.

Ok, fine ... assuming they do.

The specs for what a bidirectional host must do / implement / whatever are not done. Ok, cable says they are basically done and aren't going to change much. The CEA (and Verizon, and probably some other people) say they don't like them and there's probably going to be some argument at the FCC on what to do. No one is going to want to build a bidirectional host to sell to the consumer untill either:

1) The FCC says exactly what the cable companies have to support ... giving manufacturers and consumers confidence the bidirectional host is going to be usefull

or

2) Cable starts deploying their own vision of bidirectional functionality in enough mass / numbers ... giving manufacturers and consumers confidence the bidirectional host is going to be usefullAlso- it seems the CEA has not agreed to the 2.0 standzard but that many CE companies on their own have. So doesn't that mean it's essentially agreed upon in the real world?Well ...

Keep in mind those CE companies are selling directly to the cable companies. Comcast is buying 200,000 two-way OCAP boxes from Samsung. Samsung isn't selling those directly to consumers. So it's on Comcast's head to make those work (or not) ... not Samsung's. The consumers aren't buying those ... Comcst is leasing them to customers.

This goes to path #2 (vs. path #1 and the argument at the FCC I mentioned) above. Cable is going to be rolling out those boxes. They will tell the FCC that everything is in motion. They will say that Once there's enough mass support by the cable companies ... Samsung can start selling these boxes directly to the customer. Everything is a done deal ... the new CableCard regs should be implemented exactly as they have suggested.

The CEA will say that cable's vision isn't what the FCC / Congress intended. And that while Comcast may be willing to buy these boxes ... the framework does not provide the open-ness that would truly encourage innovation and "navigation devices from competitive sources".

I have no clue what the FCC will do ... but that will determine whether this is all a "done deal" yet ... or not.

Clear as mud?

dt_dc

01-06-2006, 05:56 PM

The specs for what a bidirectional host must do / implement / whatever are not done.Well ... in some ways they were "done" with the 1.0 specs.

You see, the CableCard Host 1.0 spec laid out exactly what must be done to build a bi-directional CableCard host to support two-way services.

However, by the time the CEA and cable companies finished negotiating and arguing (in private and at the FCC) ... the ONLY part of the 1.0 specs they could actually agree to were the parts to allow one-way support / services.

So ... if someone built a bidirectional host according to those specs ... it wouldn't work (now or ever).

We're going through that same process with the CableCard Host 2.0 specs now.

CableLabs may very well "close" some of those 2.0 specs (for example, to allow Samsung to build those OCAP boxes I mentioned above) ... but that doesn't mean that everything is "all set" for bidirectional support. May very well see 3.0 specs ... 4.0 specs ... etc.

ack_thbbft

01-06-2006, 09:47 PM

There is a thread about the Series 3 box over on digg (http://www.digg.com/hardware/Photos_and_information_on_new_TiVo_Series3_w_CableCard_HD) and someone posted:

Now this seems hard to believe because 1) it doesn't seem like TiVo is ready to beta test this box (comment, megazone?) and 2) I would think TiVo would be a bit more careful in their hardware testing than to give a box to some jackass who would post everything on a web site.

On the other hand, the guy seems semi-legit. If the Series 3 really goes to beta next week, then it is probably coming out sooner than mid-to-late 2006.
I can pretty much guarantee you that whoever this guy is who said he is getting a beta box is full of shite. I personally spoke with the project director for the Series 3 box at CES, and he said there is no beta program at this time, as the hardware hasn't even come close to being finalized yet. Another TiVo exec next to him said that even SHE couldn't get one for testing yet.

ZeoTiVo

01-06-2006, 10:18 PM

I can pretty much guarantee you that whoever this guy is who said he is getting a beta box is full of shite. I personally spoke with the project director for the Series 3 box at CES, and he said there is no beta program at this time, as the hardware hasn't even come close to being finalized yet. Another TiVo exec next to him said that even SHE couldn't get one for testing yet.

that was how I took it , just someone starting a rumor tha the boxes were close to coming out for whatever reason - maybe just to see how far it spread. :mad:

mattack

01-06-2006, 10:21 PM

AFAIK, the shows stored on a TiVo aren't encrypted - they're just plain ol' MPEG2 streams.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could swear that the various Tivo hacking FAQs that talk about getting shows off a Tivo over the network (i.e. after hacking and turning on things like FTP) require you to *TURN OFF* encryption so that you can only successfully use _future_ recordings on the computer you transfer to.

dr_mal

01-07-2006, 01:45 AM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I could swear that the various Tivo hacking FAQs that talk about getting shows off a Tivo over the network (i.e. after hacking and turning on things like FTP) require you to *TURN OFF* encryption so that you can only successfully use _future_ recordings on the computer you transfer to.
I know that's true for DirecTiVos -- buy my personal experience is only with antiquated Series 1 machines. Perhaps with the advent of MRV on the Series 2 boxes, the shows are now encrypted.

stevel

01-07-2006, 08:28 AM

It is also true for S2 boxes. The recordings are encrypted on disk.

ChuckyBox

01-07-2006, 12:34 PM

I can pretty much guarantee you that whoever this guy is who said he is getting a beta box is full of shite. I personally spoke with the project director for the Series 3 box at CES, and he said there is no beta program at this time, as the hardware hasn't even come close to being finalized yet. Another TiVo exec next to him said that even SHE couldn't get one for testing yet.

Thanks for the info. Could be this guy was just trying to drive traffic to his web site.

BTW, who were the project director and the exec?

megazone

01-08-2006, 06:23 AM

Now this seems hard to believe because 1) it doesn't seem like TiVo is ready to beta test this box (comment, megazone?) and 2) I would think TiVo would be a bit more careful in their hardware testing than to give a box to some jackass who would post everything on a web site.My understanding is that it will be going into testing Real Soon Now. So it is possible this guy *was* a beta tester.

*Was* because I also saw that comment the night it was posted, and a few seconds after I saw it, it was on its way in an email to TiVo's beta coordinator.

And yes, people have leaked details from betas in the past, more than once, and this would not be the first one to do so in an indentifiable way. However, it may be the first time someone pre-announced it. :-)