# Lost - "There's No Place Like Home (Parts 2 & 3)" - OAD 5/29/08



## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

Here we go, this should be quite a ride!


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

So who's Jeremy Benthem?


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

Miles believes Charlotte's been to the island before? Ex-Dharma herself?
Stranger & stranger!


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Todd said:


> So who's Jeremy Benthem?


I was coming here to ask the same thing. Have we seen him before?


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## raebyddet (Oct 21, 2003)

Tivo didn't get the channel change right and I missed the first half hour. Anyone care to recap? I won't be able to catch it until they post it online which won't be until tomorrow.


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## JMikeD (Jun 10, 2002)

Geez, I hate these filler episodes where you don't find out anything.


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## Unseen Llama (Nov 29, 2005)

Anyone notice the short blips of repeat scenes when returning from the commercials? One was of Kate, the other of the helicopter.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Such horror in this episode and then such a touching scene...


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

Anyone catch the commercial for Octagon Global Recruiting? Website is slammed.

Jeremy Benthem? I'm thinking one of Ben's Aliases...

(Edit...well, that isn't the case since Ben is alive and well in the funeral parlor)

WOW....now that was a shock! Locke made it off the island.....


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

There was a commercial around 1 hour 50 miniutes in for "Octagon Global Recruiting" which will bein San Diego, CA. Is this real, or some sort of easter egg?

Edit: Or what Unix man said.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> There was a commercial around 1 hour 50 miniutes in for "Octagon Global Recruiting" which will bein San Diego, CA. Is this real, or some sort of easter egg?


Comicon is July 24-27 in San Diego, the same dates as mentioned in the Octagon commercial.

Definitely not a coincidence.

Here's the website... http://octagonglobalrecruiting.com/

Looks like they're recruiting on behalf of the Dharma Initiative.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

LOCKE?!? Didn't expect it to be Locke.


Great finale. When's the next episode? January? Ugh.


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## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

Wow. Just wow.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The Website up and it's a Dharma initiative website


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Ummmm......WOW

Too much to digest. Now I won't be able to sleep tonight, my mind will be racing


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## mmilton80 (Jul 28, 2005)

What about the raftee's? They are lost!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

WOW!

How long do we have to wait for next season?


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## hc130radio (Sep 16, 2004)

good episode! when i saw the octagon's website, I knew it had to do with Lost.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> The Website up and it's a Dharma initiative website


Looks like it's going to be an online game. Cool.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Turtleboy said:


> There was a commercial around 1 hour 50 miniutes in for "Octagon Global Recruiting" which will bein San Diego, CA. Is this real, or some sort of easter egg?
> 
> Edit: Or what Unix man said.


I guess you miss things when you FF through commercials...


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Jeremy Bentham. John Locke. Both old-time English Philosophers.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

wow..
they really did move the island.....

Sawyer bailing out..

and Desmond and Penny.. it was perfect, totally and completely perfect, I am so glad they put them together.

hot damn.. that was an amazing 2 hours..


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

getbak said:


> LOCKE?!? Didn't expect it to be Locke.
> 
> Great finale. When's the next episode? January? Ugh.


I didn't expect it to be Locke until the end of this episode. All the talk about what he told the Six indicated it was someone "in the know"... I totally guessed at that point it would be Locke since they set him up as the new Ben earlier in the episode.

But still. Wow.

I didn't like how neat and tidy the Six's escape was... running into Penny, ditching Frank & Desmond. And how they tied up loose ends like Jin's death.

I really wanted Ben to help the Six get off as some sort of deal, not for them to literally escape by hitching a ride on a chopper.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm going to keep holding out hope that Jin somehow survived the explosion. He was about as far away from the explosion as possible (either way, I'm sure it's not the last we've seen of him).


I do love the fact that Sun has become a bad ass since getting back. Hell hath no fury, indeed.


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

They finally answered a bunch of questions but there is still many more. There is still the question on how did Ben get off the island and end up in the middle east. Maybe when he moved the island he got transported there.

It looks like it has been about four years depending on Aaron's age. I wonder how they would get back and how much has changed since they moved the island.

I said that it either had to be Jacks Father or Lock in the coffin.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So did Ben jump directly, through space and time, from moving the Island to the Desert? He thought he was going to end up in the North Pole, but ended up at the other place in the desert. He was still wearing the parka when he landed.

Or did he jump to the pole first and then to the desert after moving.

Ben still can't go back I take it.

And there will be no more flash forwards or flashbacks, because they are caught up.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I guess that when they lug John's corpse back to the island he will be healed once again

I keep on seeing the scene from Young Frankenstein with Jack and Hurley in the cemetary digging out John to bring him back to the island


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

cwoody222 said:


> And how they tied up loose ends like Jin's death.


We don't know that he's dead. This is LOST, where nothing is what it seems. Jin was standing on the end of the freighter, and that end was not kaboomed in the initial blast.

Far stranger things have happened.
_
ETA: or what getbak posted while I was typing . . ._


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

I doubt that Jin is dead.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I also wonder if Ben will be allowed back to the island if he brings the O6 back.

Also, what the heck was Sun doing helping (or purportedly helping) Widmore?


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## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I guess that when they lug John's corpse back to the island he will be healed once again


That's a really interesting thought.

I was kinda hoping to see Matthew Abaddon in this episode.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Dude, people were jumping off that boat with life vests...I think its not a stretch to believe maybe they survived.

Daniel and the group he was with hadn't yet made it back to the freighter so they gotta be out there somewhere. Couldn't they have sent Penny to look for it.

Charlie would be happy to know that this one is, in fact, Penny's boat.  

Locke is probably the absolute LAST person I would've expected to see in that coffin.

Is it 2009 yet?


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

reddice said:


> It looks like it has been about four years depending on Aaron's age. I wonder how they would get back and how much has changed since they moved the island.


Kate said: it had been 3 years.


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

Must have missed that. I said it would have been about 3 years.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

And Charlotte was born on the island. Cool. Who were her parents? How did her mom get pregnant (did it happen before she got there)? How did she leave?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

reddice said:


> It looks like it has been about four years depending on Aaron's age. I wonder how they would get back and how much has changed since they moved the island.


In the airport scene, Kate said she had spent the last three years trying to forget what happened the day they left.

So, the next two seasons will be Jack and Ben trying to get the band back together?


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## magaggie (Apr 9, 2002)

getbak said:


> Comicon is July 24-27 in San Diego, the same dates as mentioned in the Octagon commercial.
> 
> Definitely not a coincidence.
> 
> ...


I registered, I'm way too curious. I have to know!


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

I wonder how much Sawyer has changed in three years. I wonder how much more of a bad azz he is?


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> So did Ben jump directly, through space and time, from moving the Island to the Desert? He thought he was going to end up in the North Pole, but ended up at the other place in the desert.


Why did he think he was going to end up in the North Pole? He put the parka on because he knew the place to move the island was very cold.

My guess is he had no idea where he would be dumped at.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> And Charlotte was born on the island. Cool. Who were her parents? How did her mom get pregnant (did it happen before she got there)? How did she leave?


I think Charlotte is Ben's childhood girlfriend. He sent her off the island before the purge.


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

If it is cold where the island is I wonder if they will move filming the show from Hawaii to Canada. I hope not. I rather they keep filming it in Hawaii.

Or if it is hot filming in the desert.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

aindik said:


> I think Charlotte is Ben's childhood girlfriend. He sent her off the island before the purge.


That's what I thought too.


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

aindik said:


> I think Charlotte is Ben's childhood girlfriend. He sent her off the island before the purge.


Seems to be too large of an age gap. I would put Ben in his early 40's, and Charlotte in her mid to late 20's.


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

Charlotte mother was probably born on the island. Charlotte probably left the island somehow when she was a baby. A future flashback episode will probably explain it all.


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## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

FYI - On Good Morning America tomorrow (Friday 5/30), they are going to show two alternate endings that were shot for this season's finale.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

aindik said:


> In the airport scene, Kate said she had spent the last three years trying to forget what happened the day they left.
> 
> So, the next two seasons will be Jack and Ben trying to get the band back together?


General speculative spoilers for the next two seasons:



Spoiler



I think I read somewhere that the next season is them trying to get back to the island (with them probably making it in the finale), and the final season is what happens once they get back.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

mattpol said:


> FYI - On Good Morning America tomorrow (Friday 5/30), they are going to show two alternate endings that were shot for this season's finale.


I assume the alternate endings are going to be two other bodies in the coffin.


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## whitmans77 (Mar 6, 2003)

wow. What an episode!! A cursory look at the real Locke and Bentham would appear to show that they were at disagreements on some of their core beliefs. I'm sure that will come into play. So where did the island go?? Jack wants to go back , but where??? So much to soak in


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Squeak said:


> Why did he think he was going to end up in the North Pole? He put the parka on because he knew the place to move the island was very cold.
> 
> My guess is he had no idea where he would be dumped at.


No, he seemed to know that he would go to the cold place to turn the Island Moving Lever. Once he had moved the island, he couldn't go back, so he went to the desert.

The island will no doubt be some place tropical, so they don't have to recreate all the sets in a cold-weather location.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Squeak said:


> Seems to be too large of an age gap. I would put Ben in his early 40's, and Charlotte in her mid to late 20's.


Charlotte is Richard Alpert's daughter. Once she reached adulthood, she stopped aging. 

They concoct this whole story to save the people left on the island. But who's really left anyway that the O5 care about? It's basically Juliet and Sawyer. There's Charlotte and Miles, and Locke and (as far as they know) Ben, but the O5 don't really care about them. Claire is also there, but everyone thinks she's dead.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

Come on, Frank, you could have done a better autorotation when you ditched!


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

reddice said:


> Charlotte mother was probably born on the island. Charlotte probably left the island somehow when she was a baby. A future flashback episode will probably explain it all.


Maybe Charlotte's mom was Ben's girlfriend.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Jeremy Bentham -- wasn't that the name on the obit that Jack read on the plane in last season's finale?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

"Kenny Rogers" -- Sawyer's best nickname yet!

Anyone get the feeling Sawyer and Juliet will hook up? They both think the person they love is blown up.

Kate hasn't wanted to go back to the island anyway. Claire told her *not* to take Aaron back. Kate's going to be one tough nut to crack.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

wprager said:


> Jeremy Bentham -- wasn't that the name on the obit that Jack read on the plane in last season's finale?


Well it should be...


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

wprager said:


> Jeremy Bentham -- wasn't that the name on the obit that Jack read on the plane in last season's finale?


apparently


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

aindik said:


> They concoct this whole story to save the people left on the island. But who's really left anyway that the O5 care about? It's basically Juliet and Sawyer. There's Charlotte and Miles, and Locke and (as far as they know) Ben, but the O5 don't really care about them. Claire is also there, but everyone thinks she's dead.


Rose and Bernard?

Hurley probably cares about Locke now that he knows he moved the island.

Edit: Never mind. Hurley must know Locke's in the coffin.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Keamy extolls the virtue of his body armour and then takes it off for good measure. I realize that he was stabbed in the neck or shoulder, but c'mon....how stupid was that! Ben could've easily had a gun. I realize that he wanted to show off his little heart monitor, but I feel that could've been done a little better


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## nrrhgreg (Aug 30, 2003)

Yeah, the survivors we know list has gotten quite short now. Let on the island that we know of is Sawyer, Rose, Benard, Claire (maybe) and Locke. I guess there's still some red-shirt's left. Then there's also Juliet, Miles, Faraday and Charlotte and the Others. 

I'd be willing to bet that Jin isn't really dead though...


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Keamy extolls the virtue of his body armour and then takes it off for good measure. I realize that he was stabbed in the neck or shoulder, but c'mon....how stupid was that! Ben could've easily had a gun. I realize that he wanted to show off his little heart monitor, but I feel that could've been done a little better


I was hoping that the dead man's switch would be useless so far underground in the Orchid station. Apparently its transmitter is a little stronger than my cell phone.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Oh, and it was spooky-fantastic when Christian appeared to Michael and said "You can go now."


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

What the heck - they couldn't have moved the dead man switch quickly enough to keep it "ticking"?


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## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

That would have made a good series finale. It wrapped up enough loose ends. I'm sure some people would cry that they didn't explain everything, but they never will. I am afraid the next chapter won't be nearly as interesting.

One thing that bugged me was the detonator part. Shouldn't Locke had tried to keep it going by using his own heart beat? Also, there is no way it would have gotten a signal that far away and underground.


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## sgt spree (May 30, 2008)

yeah, the recruitment date and place just so happen to be the same time and place as San Diego Comic Con.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Keamy extolls the virtue of his body armour and then takes it off for good measure. I realize that he was stabbed in the neck or shoulder, but c'mon....how stupid was that!


I don't think he took off the armor (which looked like a bullet-proof vest to me); he took off a jacket he was wearing over it.

I wonder if Locke's coffin was so small because he lost his legs. Perhaps his price for leaving the island?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So the Island wouldn't let Michael die until it was time for him to die.

Who else will it not let die? Jack? Ben? Widmore? Why did it let Locke die?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> I was hoping that the dead man's switch would be useless so far underground in the Orchid station. Apparently its transmitter is a little stronger than my cell phone.


I guess we know it's not an XM Satellite Radio, which is what it looks like. That would never get a signal down in the Orchid. 

Did anyone watch the rebroadcast of the first hour, with the extended press conference. They (Jack in answering a question) revealed the names of the three who, according to their cover story, survived at first but didn't make it. Boone, Libby and Charlie.

I'm not sure how crazy I am about them "George Lucasing" Lost a week after it airs. Is the extra stuff in the press conference part of the show?

Also, some of the pop up video stuff is wrong. When they landed, the pop up video said Kate's mother is dying of cancer and Kate killed her father. Kate didn't kill her father. Kate killed her step-father. Kate's father, as far as we know, is alive and well as a military recruiter.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

aindik said:


> I guess we know it's not an XM Satellite Radio, which is what it looks like. That would never get a signal down in the Orchid.
> 
> Did anyone watch the rebroadcast of the first hour, with the extended press conference. They (Jack in answering a question) revealed the names of the three who, according to their cover story, survived at first but didn't make it. Boone, Libby and Charlie.
> 
> ...


other way around. They had it right. Kate thought the military man was dad, but found out later Wayne was her biological father.

But some of the pop-up stuff was completely lame. When Jin said "I told you I'd get you off the island," the next pop-up was "Jin promised Sun he'd get her off the island." No kidding.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

I thought Walt looked like he was wearing a wig.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Next random thought: I liked how the helicopter crash kind of mimicked the lie of how 815 crashed.


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## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

I was hoping we'd get clarity on what Sawyer asked Kate to do for him - I guess not until next season.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Seriously


6 MONTHS!?!?!?


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> And Charlotte was born on the island. Cool. Who were her parents? How did her mom get pregnant (did it happen before she got there)? How did she leave?


I wasn't certain if she meant her comment in the literal sense or not....

Same with Michael and Christian....did "you can go now" mean that Michael could/would now die in the explosion?

Does Walt have to return with the six as well?

And going back to last week's episode, what right-minded PR person would logo up the backdrop for a press conference where you had only six survivors from a 100+ person flight? You would want your logo minimized and just put up a plain background


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

A good episode until the last half hour or so went overboard with the tidy "that's all folks" thing with Penny's boat. The bomb made no sense from either side of the equation (move the mobile transmitter to a living body (smeek I know), shield the receiver from the signal [cut off the antenna], etc).


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

ireland967 said:


> I was hoping we'd get clarity on what Sawyer asked Kate to do for him - I guess not until next season.


I think it's give money to his daughter.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Squeak said:


> Seems to be too large of an age gap. I would put Ben in his early 40's, and Charlotte in her mid to late 20's.


When Ben was transported off the island, he didn't know when he would show up in the real world. Perhaps Ben sent her off as a youngster in a similar fashion. That could explain the age difference.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Seriously
> 
> 6 MONTHS!?!?!?


I wish. Try 7+.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

In Kate's Claire dream, that sounded like a backward Sawyer on the phone. I hope someone reverses it quickly. That, and all the whispers. It seems that the people who have been translating the whispers have been pretty lax this season.


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder if Locke's coffin was so small because he lost his legs. Perhaps his price for leaving the island?


I just want to take dibs on this theory... 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5182236#post5182236


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

"Is this the magic box?" Loved the look on Ben's face when he said "no."


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

ElJay said:


> A good episode until the last half hour or so went overboard with the tidy "that's all folks" thing with Penny's boat. The bomb made no sense from either side of the equation (move the mobile transmitter to a living body (smeek I know), shield the receiver from the signal [cut off the antenna], etc).


Not to mention... if the battery voltage dropped when frozen then why not simply disconnect it to achieve the same thing? If there was some sort of trigger that went off if the main battery was disconnected then the bomb would have gone off when the battery was frozen. Since the bomb did not go off, then the battery could have safely been disconnected.

Unless... the battery didn't go to zero and just happen to drop enough to prevent the bomb from exploding, but had enough voltage to keep the backup trigger from detecting a disconnected battery.

Or something like that.


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

sgt spree said:


> yeah, the recruitment date and place just so happen to be the same time and place as San Diego Comic Con.


One post to your name and you're already smeeking!

You'll fit right into the Lost threads.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> other way around. They had it right. Kate thought the military man was dad, but found out later Wayne was her biological father.


I sit corrected. I completely don't remember that at all from the "What Kate Did" episode.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Still digesting, but I was sure that it was Frank in the coffin right up until Locke's face appeared on screen... 

I wonder if Faraday and the Zodiac got pulled along for the ride with the island, or if they just ended up stranded afloat.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

I recall several weeks ago during the LOST Podcast, it was revealed that the working code name for the season finale was "Frozen Donkey Wheel".

Now it makes sense. The frozen wheel part I get...but donkey?

Side note, the comedy interplay between Ben and John in the Orchid was great. Something to the effect of - (John) Is this what I think it is? (Ben) Moving rabbits through time? Yes.

That, and John's "The tape said not to put metal objects in there" with Ben kind of giving him a blank look.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

SocratesJohnson said:


> I just want to take dibs on this theory...
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5182236#post5182236


Very nice.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

wprager said:


> Jeremy Bentham -- wasn't that the name on the obit that Jack read on the plane in last season's finale?


Yes, or at least as far as could be analyzed by the screen caps.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5183747#post5183747

Going back and reading some of the discussion and analysis from last year's finale thread is kind of fun.

I'm surprised that people were surprised that it was Locke in the coffin. As soon as I saw that the O6 knew who Jeremy Bentham was, I knew it had to be an alias for an Oceanic of the non-6 variety...and most likely Locke, since most of the others seemed ruled out to me. If course, I wasn't clairvoyant enough to see that last year. I voted for "yet to be introduced character."
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=353217

Congrats to: audioscience, Blackssr, bpurcell, BriGuy20, carletondm, caslu, Cboath, Chapper1, conchita, Crobinzine, David Scavo, Delta13, dtle, flyersfan, getreal, hyde76, jehma, jerrad707, justen_m, kmcorbett, markb, MMG, mocha2, mqpickles, NoThru22, reliant76, RGB, Ruth, sbourgeo, scoot95, SocratesJohnson, SoldOnTiVo, SoldOnTivoToo, stacy143, stalemate, TomK, Tweety_pbe98, uncdrew and visionary for getting it right. 

But lastly...

What the hell, Skittles...do you have a stock tip or two for us?
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5182110#post5182110


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

TiVotion said:


> I recall several weeks ago during the LOST Podcast, it was revealed that the working code name for the season finale was "Frozen Donkey Wheel".
> 
> Now it makes sense. The frozen wheel part I get...but donkey?


Close enough.


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

What is still don't understand is that Claire was a overprotected mother for Aaron. She was careful on who would even hold him and then she just walks away in the middle of the night in the jungle. Locke sees Jacks father and Claire is there not even caring for her baby. Then in Kate's dream she says not to bring him back to the island. That does not make sense. I am glad they answered some questions finally but this one is a real stumper.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Heh. I called Locke in the casket too...although my reasoning for getting him there may prove to have been a little off. But, eh. Figured it was something along those lines.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5939780&highlight=Locke#post5939780


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I'm assuming the two alternate endings were filmed as red herrings?

When I googled Jeremy Bentham's name I thought "Huh. Another old time English philosoper. They must really be into naming their characters after those guys." NOT EVEN THINKING IT MIGHT BE AN ALIAS FOR LOCKE. I'm such an idiot. 

And thinking about why they named Locke Jeremy Bentham (ignoring HOW he got off the island for the moment)... Bentham was big in economic philosophy in his time. Do you think Locke (Bentham) could be the "Economist" that Ben sent Sayid to kill? Doubtful, but it just rang a bell.

And could this be not the island Locke, but a future Locke who eventually got off the island, but time traveled back to tell the O6 to get back to the island? Wacky things possible with Time Travel.

I'm out until next season. 7 months, unless there's an actor's strike.


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## reddice (Mar 6, 2004)

> I'm out until next season. 7 months, unless there's an actor's strike.


Please let there not be a actor's strike. I can't deal with anymore new reality show crud. If I want to see idiots at there worse I will go outside. I want scripted shows and only scripted shows. I also want a full 17 episode season of Lost next year. I can't believe we have to wait over 7 months.


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

Oh another thought. The frozen wheel was in a cave that was accessed by blowing a hole in the transportation chamber. So we can assume that the wheel hasn't been accessed since the Dharma was built. So Ben had access to some information (location and function of the wheel, how to access, etc.) - perhaps something he got some Jacob at some point?

Clearly Ben had a lot of knowledge that did NOT transfer to John. I'm surprised since Ben knew he was out and John in, why did he not give John a brain dump of things that he really ought to know.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

This episode was so great! I'm such a sucker that I was cheering when Penny and Desmond met up. I'm also really surprised that they actually showed the island being moved. Wow. And Locke at the end, I suppose it really could be Jeremey whatits name and he just looks like locke.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> And there will be no more flash forwards or flashbacks, because they are caught up.


I'm pretty sure _this_ is not true. The "future" is today: if they were rescued in early 2005 and as Kate said, it's been 3 years then the airport scene happened in late 2007/early 2008. But that leaves 3 years of things happening on the island. Locke/Bentham said that "very bad things happened" and they were all Jack's fault for leaving; I'm quite sure that statement won't be left to stand without any explanation, and flashbacks are the most reasonable way to tell that story.

My prediction: next season's "present" will be set today as they try to get back to the island, and the flashes will all be flash backwards again... back to the "past" on the island.

I didn't guess it was Locke in the coffin until near the end: as soon as Jack was telling Ben that "Jeremy" described bad things happening on the island I knew it was Locke. I wonder how many of the "bad things" will really turn out to be Jack's fault (how could they be?) instead of just bad leadership by Locke?

I didn't really get the bomb thing: once they froze the battery couldn't they just pull all the detonators out of the C-4? The only things I know about C-4 I've learned from movies and TV shows but I always thought it was pretty stable by itself: that it required a detonator to explode. Couldn't they just pull all the little thermometer thingies out of the C-4 blocks? If the battery was frozen then the tripwires, etc. should not have worked.

So, was Kate saying "sorry" to Aaron because she's decided to leave him and try to get back to the island with Jack?

I thought the entire scene with Walt was kind of lame. What was the point of this? It didn't seem to advance the story or even serve any expository purpose.


----------



## Skittles (May 25, 2002)

hefe said:


> But lastly...
> 
> What the hell, Skittles...do you have a stock tip or two for us?
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5182110#post5182110


 

What can I say? The signs were just right in front of me.

I think my big question is, why is Sun suddenly trying to work with Widmore?

My real disappointment (and I hesitate to even use that word, since I dug the episode in general) is that I saw a LOT of the finale coming. Penny being their savior, the island teleporting through to another timeframe, Keamey not being dead (seriously, don't ANY of these people watch movies?), Michael dying after saving Jin (and there is NO WAY Jin is dead, he'll get rescued by Faraday's raft), Ben being thrust into another place as a direct result of displacing the island... maybe it's because there were just SO many clues leading up to the finale, but some of the scenes meant to be played for the moment of "Whoa" just seemed to be expected, at least for me.

And even though it was kinda obvious a few episodes ago that they weren't getting off the freighter, and that their best chance for rescue actually was with Penny... I kinda sorta maybe cheered a little bit when Penny did show up.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

I have to say I was shocked when Walt showed up. But it makes perfect sense now! It's been 3 years since Walt left the island and it's been 3 years since the actor left the show! BRILLIANT!! Now he's the same age!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> Kate hasn't wanted to go back to the island anyway. Claire told her *not* to take Aaron back. Kate's going to be one tough nut to crack.


I took her sobbing "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry" to Aaron after her dream/vision of Claire to mean that she had in fact decided to take him back to the island, against his mother's wishes.

I never really thought it would be Locke in the coffin, and this episode made me convinced it wouldn't be him... so I was pretty surprised.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

The Nyquil's taken effect, so I must be brief...

- Claire was missing her accent, what was up with that?
- Who has to go back? Does this include Lapidus? Desmond?
- I knew Keamy wasn't dead as well. In fact when he got shot I said to my wife, "Isn't he wearing a vest?"
- Oh and speaking of my wife...



gchance said:


> I'm going to start watching at 8:00 while my wife does anything but because she's "already seen it". Then she'll start watching at 9, and around 10, she'll announce she's "not going to make it" and go to bed. I'll finish watching by myself.


My prediction was 100% true. At one point she started to recline, turned onto her side, and started to yawn. I said, "If you're tired, go to bed." She said, "Okay," and kissed me. I looked at the clock: 9:39. The term "like clockwork" fits perfectly.

- They were all over the map with the flashback/forward sound. It was seemingly random here.
- It was VERY COOL that when I thought the episode was over, there was still a half hour to go.

I'm off. There were 4 pages of posts when I finally came on. Watch, there'll be 12 more pages in the morning. Nite all.

Greg


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

LOST rocks. Nuf said. :up:

Is it January yet?


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## gumbinator (Oct 7, 2004)

Skittles said:


> I think my big question is, why is Sun suddenly trying to work with Widmore?


She blames two men for Jin's death:
1) Her father (she told him this to his face)
2) Ben (my guess)

So she's working with Widmore so that she can get at Ben. At least that what I think she's up to...


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

getbak said:


> Comicon is July 24-27 in San Diego, the same dates as mentioned in the Octagon commercial.
> 
> Definitely not a coincidence.
> 
> ...


Unpaid positions??????



madscientist said:


> I thought the entire scene with Walt was kind of lame. What was the point of this? It didn't seem to advance the story or even serve any expository purpose.


Unless Walt has to go back to the Island too.
Locke could have been passing the torch to Walt.

As for the episode:

Oh My God! They killed Jin!
You bastards!

No, count me in Jin is still alive camp too.
Michael, he's deader than a doornail.
He blowed up good though.

I kept thinking that Jeremy Bentham was the Australian Psychic. I didn't think it was Locke until Ben started talking at the Funeral Home.

I would also like to know if Frank and Desmond have to go back to the Island and what happened to Faraday's group?
(I suppose that they might have made if back to the Island before it moved though.)


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## TIVOSciolist (Oct 13, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder if Locke's coffin was so small because he lost his legs. Perhaps his price for leaving the island?


Interesting idea. According to imdb.com, actor Terry O'Quinn is actually 6' 1-1/2" tall so the coffin should be pretty big. Maybe it's an optical illusion that makes it look smaller on TV?


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

Such a boring episode. Nothing happened. Man this whole season sucked so much. I'm deleting my season pass. 

(By the way, it was nice how they tied together last season's finale with this one)


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I kept thinking that Jeremy Bentham was the Australian Psychic.


Don't feel bad, for some reason I had it firmly planted in my head that it was going to be Faraday! I think because I knew he was on the raft and wouldn't go with the island.

Speaking of which, I am glad they more or less implied that BOTH islands got moved. I was fearful of a plot hole. But these guys definitely cover everything!

Loved the finale. Completely satisfied. I'm only sad that it's going to be a LONG wait until new episodes start.

In fact, Summer TV is going to be hell. A graveyard! I feel so empty just thinking about it!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gumbinator said:


> She blames two men for Jin's death:
> 1) Her father (she told him this to his face)
> 2) Ben (my guess)
> 
> So she's working with Widmore so that she can get at Ben. At least that what I think she's up to...


I think it's her father and Widmore. And she's now launching her plan to get back at Widmore (or both of them!).


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

It makes more sense that Jin is trying to get at Widmore and not Ben. It wasn't Ben's people that killed Jin. It was Widmore's. Ben might be partially responsible for Jin's death but that would be ignoring the responsibility that Keany and all his commando's share. 

What was is Ben said 'command decisions made based on an emotional response sometimes go badly'. Is that remorse I hear? Clearly Ben is not a 'bad' guy. He's been living in a very unique world. 

So the island has been moved more than once (the slave ship didn't get there by crashing into it, the island materialized from underneath it). 

Having to descend so far underground and then go even further down into a frozen spot under the island sort of reminded me of the 9th circle of Dante's Inferno. Fitting for Ben, I think.

Signed up on the Octagon recruiting page. Unfortunately, it gives itself away completely on the "terms and conditions" page by mentioning Walt Disney and ABC. I thought they would be more subtle than that. At least I don't remember them being as forthcoming with the Oceanic Airlines Web site.

It's a valid question as to why Jack cares so much what happened on the island after he left. Unless it continues to be his need to 'fix things'. He's going to have to do quite a bit of convincing to get all six of them to want to go back. Then, of course, there was Claire's warning. Don't bring him back. Bring who back? Aaron? Jack?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> Having to descend so far underground and then go even further down into a frozen spot under the island sort of reminded me of the 9th circle of Dante's Inferno. Fitting for Ben, I think.


But I don't think he went "down" into a frozen spot; he was transported elsewhere. (If you go down, it gets warmer, not colder.) And presumably the Island Moving Lever also moved him again (to the desert).

I suppose the movement must also be two-way, since polar bears in the past seem to have been transported to both the island and the desert...


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I don't think he went "down" into a frozen spot; he was transported elsewhere. (If you go down, it gets warmer, not colder.) And presumably the Island Moving Lever also moved him again (to the desert).


The ninth circle is frozen.

He climbed down a ladder didn't he? I remember because he fell after some of the rungs broke.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think it's her father and Widmore. And she's now launching her plan to get back at Widmore (or both of them!).


I think she blames Jack.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

spikedavis said:


> I have to say I was shocked when Walt showed up. But it makes perfect sense now! It's been 3 years since Walt left the island and it's been 3 years since the actor left the show! BRILLIANT!! Now he's the same age!


What did Hurley say? "You got big!"


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

Great Episode, it cleared up so many unanswered questions. 

Both Sun and Widmore share an interest. That interest is to find the island. Makes sense to me that Sun believes Jin is still alive and she wants to try and find him. Widmore has the resources available to help her do that.

I fought the urge during the entire show to go to my computer and do a search on Jeremy Bentham. I was kind of shocked to see Locke in there. I expected it to possibly be Michael or Ben (well until he showed up at the end).


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## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I don't think he went "down" into a frozen spot; he was transported elsewhere. (If you go down, it gets warmer, not colder.) And presumably the Island Moving Lever also moved him again (to the desert).
> 
> I suppose the movement must also be two-way, since polar bears in the past seem to have been transported to both the island and the desert...


The wheel he turned was pretty clearly frozen taking considerable effort to unseize it from ice.

KD


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## magaggie (Apr 9, 2002)

I also loved the Ben/Locke interplay! My favorite was when he walked up and Locke was talking to Jack (who was very defiant)

Ben: You couldnt find the anthuriums, could you?
Locke: "I don't know what they look like!" (exasperated and a little confused)

As they walk away from Jack  It was pretty funny


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So what were the alternate endings?


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

so now it makes sense how the polar bear ended up in the desert, last time they moved the island they had the polar bear pull the big wheel

and hadn't though about this til you mentioned it:



> So the island has been moved more than once (the slave ship didn't get there by crashing into it, the island materialized from underneath it).


great episode


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

My biggest question I have out of all of this is why does Jacob prefer the form of Christian Sheppard? So much so that he appears as him to Michael, who doesn't even know him.

The only thing I can come up with is that he was dead when 815 crashed. Perhaps Jacob can only take the form of people who are on the island but died off of it? Maybe the first "incarnation" of Jacob that we saw was from the slave ship, but Christian is a "fresher" spirit thus stronger and easier to appear as...

Oh, and having Miles on the island next season should be awesome..


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

laststarfighter said:


> Such a boring episode. Nothing happened. Man this whole season sucked so much. I'm deleting my season pass.
> 
> (By the way, it was nice how they tied together last season's finale with this one)


Well, ignoring the sarcasm for a moment, this season was a crapload of exposition just to set up situations (some of them extraordinarily contrived) that were already virtually in place when the last season ended. I guess I should be used to that, since that has been the playbook for a few seasons now. They probably could've accomplished the same thing with about three episodes plus the finale. I'm glad they came back after the strike, but the eye rolling quotient is increasing with every episode.  Didn't the producers say at one point that everything happening had some sort of scientific explanation? Moving islands and magical RF transmitters that work deep underground kind of lack that basis, to say the least.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

Great season finale.

Also put me down for the "Sun blames her father and Widmore" camp, but I wouldn't be shocked to see Jack be the focus of blame either.

Stray thoughts:

1. Locke in the coffin - so now Jack has to take dead Locke back to the island. Sort of an interesting parallel to where he was at the series beginning, when he had to take his dead father home. Both of them died off the island, and were (or will be) brought to the island. I'm thinking that Locke will less get healed, than he will do a Christian Shephard and become a more ghostly direct agent of the island.

2. Ghostly visions - So Kate saw Claire, and Ben commented to Jack at the end, "I'll take care of Kate" (or something similar). Interestingly, Kate got the strange phone call right before seeing Claire. This parallels with Jack hearing the smoke alarm earlier this season, right before seeing his father. Do these sounds, followed by hallucinations, suggest some type of subliminal triggers? This could fit with Hurley - who had a predisposition to hallucinate, the trigger (which I don't think we've seen) had a worse effect than intended. This would imply that although the trigger causes you to hallucinate, it doesn't specify what you see. You would see what you're worrying about.

If this is correct, who would do it? Obviously Ben, believing he needed them all to get back to the island. That would also fit to why we've not seen Sayyid have visions off-island. Sun remains an unknown in this theory. And if Ben can't control the content of what someone sees, the vision may be counter-productive for his purpose (such as Claire saying, Don't dare take him back!)


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I don't think he went "down" into a frozen spot; he was transported elsewhere. (If you go down, it gets warmer, not colder.) And presumably the Island Moving Lever also moved him again (to the desert).


I don't think so. You clearly saw him crawl through the hole in the back of the chamber (that was created by all of the metalic objects), crawl down a tunnel, break out ice that was acting as cover, and climb down into the cave with the wheel.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

One more thought - 

Someone said we're caught up, no more flashbacks or -forwards. Although technically true, we have a 3-year gap where we know nothing of what happened on the island. Perhaps the new season will have current-time events with the people off the island, and flashbacks of the 3-year interval on the island?


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## whitmans77 (Mar 6, 2003)

ok. I don't get why people are having such a fit about the bomb. If the xm device was a heart monitor how could they take it off and w
switch it. If he took enough time to wire the bomb the way he did would he have the transmitter set up so weakly that you could just take it off. As far as the transmitter, I gotta think if I can get my hands on 500 Pounds of c4 that I can get a radio better than one you find at radio shack. Now I'm no bombmaker but I know I wouldn't have tried to cut or pull any wires even when the battery was frozen. That's one of those things you only get one chance to mess up on. 

Now to my questions
Can we please explain the Richard non aging thing?
Was that machine really used for time travel bc the video never finished playing and ben sure didn't use it for that. Or was the purpose just to blow up the wall in that room to get to the donkey wheel. 
Crap...where did the island go????


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Squeak said:


> I don't think so. You clearly saw him crawl through the hole in the back of the chamber (that was created by all of the metalic objects), crawl down a tunnel, break out ice that was acting as cover, and climb down into the cave with the wheel.


So you think he was still on the island when he turned the Island Moving Lever?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So you think he was still on the island when he turned the Island Moving Lever?


I think it's certainly possible.

How's that for taking a stand?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

atrac said:


> Don't feel bad, for some reason I had it firmly planted in my head that it was going to be Faraday!


Me too. I think it's because the actor's first name is "Jeremy".


Big_Daddy said:


> Although technically true, we have a 3-year gap where we know nothing of what happened on the island.


We have no way of knowing how much time has passed on the island.


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## b2627 (May 30, 2008)

Does anybody else think that maybe Michael is the father of Sun's baby?

Just a thought.... given his reaction when she told him. Or was he just realising she was staying with Jin...


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## DirecTiVoTexas (Aug 26, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So you think he was still on the island when he turned the Island Moving Lever?


I think he was still on the island until it moved. Then, he got transported to the desert the same way the polar bear got transported.


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## DirecTiVoTexas (Aug 26, 2003)

b2627 said:


> Does anybody else think that maybe Michael is the father of Sun's baby?
> 
> Just a thought.... given his reaction when she told him. Or was he just realising she was staying with Jin...


No.


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Maybe I'm smeeking but did anyone mention how Ben was wearing the parka when he was transported to the middle of the desert AND he had the cut on his arm from the fall into the ice room...it was maybe 2-3 eps ago?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DirecTiVoTexas said:


> I think he was still on the island until it moved. Then, he got transported to the desert the same way the polar bear got transported.


I think the ice room is in a polar region, and the point of overloading the time travel machine was to open a portal to the ice room. So first he was transported to the polar ice room by the bunny machine, and then he was transported to the desert by the donkey wheel (with possible collateral polar bear transportage).


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I remember there was a debate the first season as to whether or not the entire story could be explained by natural science, or if there was going to be "magic" involved.

At least we know the answer for sure now.


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## BriGuy20 (Aug 4, 2005)

Maybe I'm a bit confused, but I could swear that Jin was alive. The flash forward showing Sun's birth showed Jin getting a stuffed animal in South Korea, ostensibly to go give to Jin. It showed later that he was like a secret agent spy guy (back to his normal stuff), kinda like he's believed to be dead by the outside world but he's still alive and doing missions. He ended up giving the bear to the daughter of some former rival, I thought. :: confused ::

Or maybe I'm just off my meds. Eko over here seems to think it's the latter.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

BriGuy20 said:


> Maybe I'm a bit confused, but I could swear that Jin was alive. The flash forward showing Sun's birth showed Jin getting a stuffed animal in South Korea, ostensibly to go give to Jin. It showed later that he was like a secret agent spy guy (back to his normal stuff), kinda like he's believed to be dead by the outside world but he's still alive and doing missions. He ended up giving the bear to the daughter of some former rival, I thought. :: confused ::
> 
> Or maybe I'm just off my meds. Eko over here seems to think it's the latter.


You missed the whole point of that episode. Jin was in a flashback, Sun was in a flashforward. Sun and Hurley visited his grave.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

BriGuy20 said:


> Maybe I'm a bit confused, but I could swear that Jin was alive. The flash forward showing Sun's birth showed Jin getting a stuffed animal in South Korea, ostensibly to go give to Jin. It showed later that he was like a secret agent spy guy (back to his normal stuff), kinda like he's believed to be dead by the outside world but he's still alive and doing missions. He ended up giving the bear to the daughter of some former rival, I thought. :: confused ::
> 
> Or maybe I'm just off my meds. Eko over here seems to think it's the latter.


You're off your meds.  The producers fooled us by intercutting those scenes, but one was a flashback to before the island (buying the bear), and one was a flash forward (Sun having the baby).


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

whitmans77 said:


> ok. I don't get why people are having such a fit about the bomb. If the xm device was a heart monitor how could they take it off and w
> switch it. If he took enough time to wire the bomb the way he did would he have the transmitter set up so weakly that you could just take it off. As far as the transmitter, I gotta think if I can get my hands on 500 Pounds of c4 that I can get a radio better than one you find at radio shack.


I don't care how good it is...a portable radio underground, miles from the freighter is NOT going to reach. Just have to leave that one to dramatic license...and enjoy the drama.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I think she blames Jack.


Didn't Jack say that Sun blames him for Jin's death?


----------



## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the ice room is in a polar region, and the point of overloading the time travel machine was to open a portal to the ice room. So first he was transported to the polar ice room by the bunny machine, and then he was transported to the desert by the donkey wheel (with possible collateral polar bear transportage).


You know what, until you said it, I never thought of that.

I always assumed the device to move the island would be part of the island.

But, your do make a valid point.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

hefe said:


> Congrats to: audioscience, Blackssr, bpurcell, BriGuy20, carletondm, caslu, Cboath, Chapper1, conchita, Crobinzine, David Scavo, Delta13, dtle, flyersfan, getreal, hyde76, jehma, jerrad707, justen_m, kmcorbett, markb, MMG, mocha2, mqpickles, NoThru22, reliant76, RGB, Ruth, sbourgeo, scoot95, SocratesJohnson, SoldOnTiVo, SoldOnTivoToo, stacy143, stalemate, TomK, Tweety_pbe98, uncdrew and visionary for getting it right.


I don't remember predicting Locke, but I'll take a bow anyway.

Maybe as much time won't pass on the island as we thought. Ben got thrown into the future by the wheel so maybe the island did too.

I think Sun blames Widmore for Jin's death because it was his boat and his mission and she's trying to set him up some how. Either that, or she believes that Jin is still alive and will use Widmore to get back to the island.

When Ben said everyone has to go back, does that include Aaron (and as asked earlier, Walt?) They set up Walt too much in the first season to ignore him through the end.

When is Season 1 and 2 going to come out on Blu-ray so I can watch the whole thing from the beginning (continuity error with Charlie swimming, notwithstanding?)

Good call on the pirate ship not crashing on the island, but rather the island moving underneath it 300 years ago.

Of course there will be more flashbacks and flashforwards. The writers rely on it as a device too much (not saying that's a bad thing) and Ben said directly that Locke had visited Jack and told him some stuff. All the O6 knew that Locke was Jeremy Bentham, so there's obviously a story to be told there.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the ice room is in a polar region, and the point of overloading the time travel machine was to open a portal to the ice room. So first he was transported to the polar ice room by the bunny machine, and then he was transported to the desert by the donkey wheel (with possible collateral polar bear transportage).


Just like they built the Swan on top of the electro-magnetic anomaly (to study it), I'm pretty sure they built the Orchid over top the time/space wheel (also to study it.)



Bryanmc said:


> Didn't Jack say that Sun blames him for Jin's death?


I wouldn't know, my %$&@#$*ing HD Tivo kept cutting out all night. I missed the whole evacuation scene from the freighter. Can someone catch me up?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

The humor between Ben and Locke once Locke started watching the safety video on how to use the bunny room was very funny. This a very good episode. How long has it been since we've had five pages of discussion less than 12 hours since the airing of an episode? Maybe this is a common thing.


----------



## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

I was annoyed that I couldn't remember who Jeremy Benthem was the whole episode. I kept thinking I had forgotten a previously-introduced character.

So now we need everyone to get back to the island, including Locke.

Maybe once they all get back there, things will reset themselves, and they will suddenly be back on the plane before the crash.

And then they crash, and it starts all over again. 

The whispers were back, when Kate and Ben were by the helicopter. So they are still being remotely viewed by someone.

Faraday is a weasel. He really pisses me off.

Sad to see Jin killed (maybe). Sun was so emotional, it was great acting. Sent chills.


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> I don't remember predicting Locke, but I'll take a bow anyway.
> 
> Maybe as much time won't pass on the island as we thought. Ben got thrown into the future by the wheel so maybe the island did too.
> 
> ...


They run out of the nitro gas stuff, the red light goes on, Michael tells Desmond to leave..then tells Jin to go..Desmond is trying to tell the helicopter to stay away but it lands...Des gets on, they refuel...take off just as Jin is running to catch them but can't....cut to Michael seeing Christian in the bomb room and Christian says "You can go now" then BOOM!


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Donbadabon said:


> Sad to see Jin killed (maybe). Sun was so emotional, it was great acting. Sent chills.


The only person we know is dead is Keany. The rest, well, I'm not so sure. It all depends on how big a bubble around the island was transported.

Ok the time travel equipment absolutely must be part of the island because it's been used at least once before and not from the same location on the globe. The Swan station was built on a specific place that presumably moves right along with the island to different parts of the globe when the wheel is turned. If all those things are stationary, it would mean that when the island moves the phenomenon stay where they were originally.

Either that or the phenomenon are always everywhere on the globe and the island provides the portal to those phenomenon regardless of the island's location. I don't think the bunny room was the portal. Ben put all that stuff in the room to blow a hole in the back wall of the bunny room.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the ice room is in a polar region, and the point of overloading the time travel machine was to open a portal to the ice room. So first he was transported to the polar ice room by the bunny machine, and then he was transported to the desert by the donkey wheel (with possible collateral polar bear transportage).


LOL

And only for Lost would that not sound completely ridiculous.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> My biggest question I have out of all of this is why does Jacob prefer the form of Christian Sheppard? So much so that he appears as him to Michael, who doesn't even know him.
> 
> The only thing I can come up with is that he was dead when 815 crashed. Perhaps Jacob can only take the form of people who are on the island but died off of it? Maybe the first "incarnation" of Jacob that we saw was from the slave ship, but Christian is a "fresher" spirit thus stronger and easier to appear as...
> 
> Oh, and having Miles on the island next season should be awesome..


When Locke asked Christian is he was Jacob, he said "no, but I can speak for him." While there's obviously some connection between Jacob and Christian, "taking the form" or "incarnation" doesn't seem to be the correct description. If it were, he would simply speak as if he were Jacob.

Speaking of which, it still does not seem clear to me what Christian told Claire to make her so at ease. Especially given her warning to Kate in the dream.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Also, what the heck was Sun doing helping (or purportedly helping) Widmore?


Two possible reasons: 1)She thinks Jin is alive (this is after she visited his tombstone with Hurley) and Widmore is the only way to find the Island.
2)She thinks Ben is responsible for Jin's death and this is revenge against him.

Oops. I posted before I read all the other posts. I just read about 2 pages before I posted this, than read the rest afterwards.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

To me, John seemed like an uncomfortable leader. Perhaps he was trying to do too much and leaving the island was somehting he felt he had to do (to save the island). Once he left the island his life quickly fell apart and then Sayid killed him (although John killing himself off the island because he couldn't walk any longer also makes sense)


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Alfer2003 said:


> They run out of the nitro gas stuff, the red light goes on, Michael tells Desmond to leave..then tells Jin to go..Desmond is trying to tell the helicopter to stay away but it lands...Des gets on, they refuel...take off just as Jin is running to catch them but can't....cut to Michael seeing Christian in the bomb room and Christian says "You can go now" then BOOM!


Okay, but was there anything in the time between they were refueling and the time they took off that Jack made them take off? (Just trying to figure out if there's water behind the Sun blame's Jack theory.)

Also, I have a hell of time blocking out the guest stars in my vision on my 101" screen since they've become spoilers now. I always want to see who wrote the episode, but then I end up seeing that Walt or Christian or Michael is in the episode.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> Speaking of which, it still does not seem clear to me what Christian told Claire to make her so at ease. Especially given her warning to Kate in the dream.


I think Claire is dead in that scene and once you die on the island, all becomes clear. She certainly seemed at ease with everything around her. If she were still alive, she's be frantic because she didn't have Aaron


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## sjgmoney (Jun 13, 2006)

zync said:


> Clearly Ben had a lot of knowledge that did NOT transfer to John. I'm surprised since Ben knew he was out and John in, why did he not give John a brain dump of things that he really ought to know.


A Vulcan mind-meld perhaps?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

If Locke is Jeremy Bentham why does the O6 refer to him as Jeremy and not Locke? Ben used many different aliases while off the island but Sayid referred to Ben as Ben while off the island.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I remember there was a debate the first season as to whether or not the entire story could be explained by natural science, or if there was going to be "magic" involved.
> 
> At least we know the answer for sure now.


I'm not sure which one you're suggesting that it is. A lot of stuff I'd put into the category of science, albeit fictional science. The orchid video - both what we saw in this episode and the one from comicon - suggest that the island-moving and teleportation stuff had a scientific basis. But stuff like people appearing in dreams, etc., I would certainly consider supernatural, even within the Lost universe.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> Okay, but was there anything in the time between they were refueling and the time they took off that Jack made them take off? (Just trying to figure out if there's water behind the Sun blame's Jack theory.)


Kate said to Sun, "You take Aaron into the helicopter and I'll go back for Jin." She runs to go get Jin, but Jack catches up with her and pulls her back to the helicopter.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Sirius Black said:


> If Locke is Jeremy Bentham why does the O6 refer to him as Jeremy and not Locke? Ben used many different aliases while off the island but Sayid referred to Ben as Ben while off the island.


Hurley asked the same thing. I think it was just their way of saying "Locke, who insisted on being called 'Jeremy Bentham'" just using fewer words. They all obviously knew whom they were referring to. And obviously to keep from revealing his identity to us.

I wasn't expecting it to be revealed exactly like that, however. I got the impression earlier in the episode that "Jeremy Bentham" had given them the specifics of what their story had to be, so I thought he was some sort of representative of Charles Widmore, and for a while was thinking it might be Matthew Abaddon (or Abbadon?). I know Locke told Jack they'd have to lie, but he told him that sort of matter-of-factly, and I think Jack would have realized it on his own.


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## DirecTiVoTexas (Aug 26, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> If Locke is Jeremy Bentham why does the O6 refer to him as Jeremy and not Locke? Ben used many different aliases while off the island but Sayid referred to Ben as Ben while off the island.


That was probably purely for our benefit, to keep his identity a surprise until the end. But, they may have disciplined themselves to only refer to Locke only as Jeremy once off the island, but I doubt it.


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> If Locke is Jeremy Bentham why does the O6 refer to him as Jeremy and not Locke? Ben used many different aliases while off the island but Sayid referred to Ben as Ben while off the island.


I would guess that it's to keep up the "lie". If someone heard them say Jeremy they wouldnt think twice about it. If they heard them refer to Locke as still being alive then there could be problems.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jehma said:


> LOL
> 
> And only for Lost would that not sound completely ridiculous.


I confess, I was unable to type that with a straight face...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

crowfan said:


> Kate said to Sun, "You take Aaron into the helicopter and I'll go back for Jin." She runs to go get Jin, but Jack catches up with her and pulls her back to the helicopter.


Yeah, but I don't see how people are thinking that that would be more of a basis for her to blame Jack than the fact that Widmore was the financier and mastermind of the bomb being there in the first place. Jack was just trying to make sure that as many of them got off the island as they could before the bomb went off or the helicopter left without them. Surely Sun would realize that. And as far as Ben, she would have had no way of knowing about his role in killing Keamy.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

So anyone see the 2 alternate endings? Wondering what they were


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## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> So anyone see the 2 alternate endings? Wondering what they were


Video can be found on several sites.



Spoiler



The alt endings occur in the scene with Ben and Jack in the funeral parlor. The only change is during the fly-over revealing Locke in the coffin. One fly-over reveals Desmond in the coffin. The other shows Sawyer.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> So anyone see the 2 alternate endings? Wondering what they were


If anyone did, please spoiler it. Some of us are waiting to watch it.


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## sjgmoney (Jun 13, 2006)

Couple of things:

1. Jin's flash episode where he was buying astuffed animal was aflash back, and he was buying it for the daughter of a big customer/boss of his who was giving birth. It was a plot trick to make us wonder if it was before or after the crash.

2. Ben didn't time travel in the chamber, he blew a hole in the back of it and accessed a tunnel behind the chamber where he then went down into the cold region to move the wheel.

3. My guess on Locke is he too was forced at some point to move the island, that's how he got "off" the island. Remember what Ben said "the person who moves the island can't go back (or stay)" something to that effect.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Tunisia is exactly opposite on the globe from a spot in the south Pacific east of New Zealand. I wonder if there's some sort of pole-to-pole connection with whatever magnetic anomaly is generated...which I only assume occurred because the noise we heard we the same as the noise from when the original hatch blew up.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

The alternate endings were just red herrings put out there just in case someone leaked something. The only change was that they showed two other characters in the coffin. If you're still curious, you can search it out from there. Suffice to say, there was nothing substantitve.....


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## jtonra (Oct 19, 2001)

Did anyone else think that the escape from the freighter was totally out of character for Jack? It seems to me that rather than rushing back to the helicoptor to leave himself, he would have been making sure everyone else got off the freighter first.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

sjgmoney said:


> Couple of things:
> 3. My guess on Locke is he too was forced at some point to move the island, that's how he got "off" the island. Remember what Ben said "the person who moves the island can't go back (or stay)" something to that effect.


Possibly, but that doesn't mean that people can't leave _unless_ they move the island.

I hope the answer to this isn't obvious, but why did they still have to move the island after the mercenaries had all been killed? Actually, I'm confused as to what good it was going to do anyway since they had already gotten onto the island (as Hurley pointed out).


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jtonra said:


> Did anyone else think that the escape from the freighter was totally out of character for Jack? It seems to me that rather than rushing back to the helicoptor to leave himself, he would have been making sure everyone else got off the freighter first.


Not really. If his not getting on the helicopter would have done any good, then maybe, but going back for Jin would have just meant both of them getting blown up, or at least seriously risking that happening. Besides, he felt the responsibility to make sure he got everyone all the way back home safely (definitely IN character), which meant making sure he got on the helicopter himself.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Paperboy2003 said:


> The alternate endings were just red herrings put out there just in case someone leaked something. The only change was that they showed two other characters in the coffin. If you're still curious, you can search it out from there. Suffice to say, there was nothing substantitve.....


I agree. Neither of the other two make any sense, certainly not within the context of the rest of the episode.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Possibly, but that doesn't mean that people can't leave _unless_ they move the island.
> 
> I hope the answer to this isn't obvious, but why did they still have to move the island after the mercenaries had all been killed? Actually, I'm confused as to what good it was going to do anyway since they had already gotten onto the island (as Hurley pointed out).


Because Widmore now knows where it is (was) and the cloaking system has been turned off.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> Because Widmore now knows where it is (was) and the cloaking system has been turned off.


Oh, right. Widmore.

What exactly is the cloaking system? How did I miss that part too?


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

IIRC, the purpose of the original "hatch" was to cloak the island with some sort of electromagnetism. When it was destroyed, so was the cloak.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Oh, right. Widmore.
> 
> What exactly is the cloaking system? How did I miss that part too?


Was that clear? I don't recall if there was an actual cloaking system, or if the island just was sort of hidden (in time and space) due to its nature. But the anomaly of season 2 drew them in close enough to find it, and presumably they knew where to look based on the arrival of the mercenaries.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> So the island has been moved more than once (the slave ship didn't get there by crashing into it, the island materialized from underneath it).


And perhaps into the path of Yemi's plane?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hefe said:


> Was that clear? I don't recall if there was an actual cloaking system, or if the island just was sort of hidden (in time and space) due to its nature. But the anomaly of season 2 drew them in close enough to find it, and presumably they knew where to look based on the arrival of the mercenaries.


Ok, glad it's not just me (this time anyway). Either way, the fact that Widmore could still get back to the island is enough of an answer.

Actually, do we know for sure that Widmore found it the same way that Penny got close to finding it? Seems like a safe guess, just wondering if it was ever mentioned.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

crowfan said:


> IIRC, the purpose of the original "hatch" was to cloak the island with some sort of electromagnetism. When it was destroyed, so was the cloak.


The "cloak" I was talking about was actually the signal jam that Charlie turned off. Cloak was a bad term to use.

I still don't understand exactly how Naomi first got onto the island. I'm sure there are other "signals" that could leave the island they could have now find easier (one like Danielle's radio transmitter, though that is now off)..

But once the sat phone was on the island, the jamming was the only thing keeping everyone from finding the island...


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

GDG76 said:


> My biggest question I have out of all of this is why does Jacob prefer the form of Christian Sheppard? So much so that he appears as him to Michael, who doesn't even know him.
> 
> The only thing I can come up with is that he was dead when 815 crashed. Perhaps Jacob can only take the form of people who are on the island but died off of it? Maybe the first "incarnation" of Jacob that we saw was from the slave ship, but Christian is a "fresher" spirit thus stronger and easier to appear as...





Big_Daddy said:


> Great season finale.
> 
> 1. Locke in the coffin - so now Jack has to take dead Locke back to the island. Sort of an interesting parallel to where he was at the series beginning, when he had to take his dead father home. Both of them died off the island, and were (or will be) brought to the island. I'm thinking that Locke will less get healed, than he will do a Christian Shephard and become a more ghostly direct agent of the island.


I'm thinking along these thoughts as well. What if Christian was previously on the island at some point in his life. The only way he could come back was for his body to be dead already. I think its going to end up being the same case for Locke. Although i don't exactly know why yet.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> The "cloak" I was talking about was actually the signal jam that Charlie turned off. Cloak was a bad term to use.
> 
> I still don't understand exactly how Naomi first got onto the island. I'm sure there are other "signals" that could leave the island they could have now find easier (one like Danielle's radio transmitter, though that is now off)..
> 
> But once the sat phone was on the island, the jamming was the only thing keeping everyone from finding the island...


Gotcha. But I think it was more than the signals being transmitted from the island that enabled the freighter team to find it. Faraday knew all that stuff about the bearing that had to be followed, etc. Lots of stuff we still don't really know.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

OK, I guess I was way off.  It's been a long time since I've watched those eps.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

Someone earlier in this thread hoped that someone would decode the backwards talking that Kate heard on the phone.

According to this page, they have. Look in the "Final remarks/questions:" section near the bottom:

http://www.tvsquad.com/2008/05/29/lost-theres-no-place-like-home-part-two-season-finale/



Spoiler



One of our readers, Ian at Comic Timing, reversed the audio on Kate's late night phone call. The caller said, "The island needs you. You have to go back before it's too late." Creepy!


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

I thought this was an awesome episode! I didn't suspect it would be Locke in the coffin until after Ben showed up and started talking about how he said "bad things happened on the island after you left."

Loved Jack's being startled when Ben spoke to him in the funeral parlor. I jumped too.

IMHO, the "stargate" aspect of the wheel was a bit of a letdown.

I called Sawyer jumping out of the copter right before he did it (based on the goodbye kiss with Kate shown immediately before in the previews for this episode), so that spoiled it a bit for me. Still great proof of how much character Sawyer has developed since coming to the island.

Apparently Locke _did_ have to move the island and that's why he left too. Perhaps Sawyer suceeds him as leader of the remaining group.

Yeah, I was counting how many true Oceanic surviviors remain on the island. Not very many of the original actors. Wonder if part of next season will be introducing us to more "new" people among that group?

I agree, Kate's apology to Aaron was b/c she'd made the decision to return to the island with Jack.

Cheryl


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

1. I don't think it was ever implied that the EMF hid the island. The EMF explosion is what that polar tracking station picked up on.

2. The station that Charlie deactivated was preventing signals from being transmitted off the island. It wasn't meant to hide anything.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

markz said:


> Someone earlier in this thread hoped that someone would decode the backwards talking that Kate heard on the phone.
> 
> According to this page, they have. Look in the "Final remarks/questions:" section near the bottom:
> 
> ...


Very interesting. But in a practical sense, what good does that do Kate? A, it was in a dream, and B, it was backwards. If someone wanted her to know that the island needs her, they sure didn't communicate it very effectively. Plus, given what Claire said, she would have assumed that any message intended in the dream was NOT to go back.


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## erk48188 (Aug 16, 2002)

Cloaking device: wasn't the season 2 finale where desmonde turned the key because locke wouldn't enter the numbers and the big purple sky and explosion occured. then a signal popped up on some listening post in an arctic setting, and the people listening got penny on the phone to say they found it?


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> Very interesting. But in a practical sense, what good does that do Kate? A, it was in a dream, and B, it was backwards. If someone wanted her to know that the island needs her, they sure didn't communicate it very effectively. Plus, given what Claire said, she would have assumed that any message intended in the dream was NOT to go back.


I think Claire (dead) knows that they might be going back, so the dream is a way to make it clear: "Aaron doesn't go with you." Since, in my opinion, the 6 of them are pretty clearly going to try to go back (even if we spend many episodes watching them come to this decision,) I think we might see Kate return Aaron to Claire's mother next season.


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## sjgmoney (Jun 13, 2006)

jradford said:


> I think we might see Kate return Aaron to Claire's mother next season.


Pretty clear to me that if they all have to go back, including dead man Locke, that Aaron must go back too.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

erk48188 said:


> Cloaking device: wasn't the season 2 finale where desmonde turned the key because locke wouldn't enter the numbers and the big purple sky and explosion occured. then a signal popped up on some listening post in an arctic setting, and the people listening got penny on the phone to say they found it?


They detected a magnetic anomaly because of the enormous release of electromagnetic energy. The normal levels of electromagnetism weren't cloaking the island, they just weren't strong enough for the guys at the listening station to detect. And we have no idea where the station was located, only that it was cold. Seems unlikely that it was arctic though.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

sjgmoney said:


> Pretty clear to me that if they all have to go back, including dead man Locke, that Aaron must go back too.


I am sorry for not reading all the earlier posts. I will go back and do that, but I read this and thought, "great now Jack has to lug another casket onto a plane".


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

jradford said:


> I think Claire (dead) knows that they might be going back, so the dream is a way to make it clear: "Aaron doesn't go with you." Since, in my opinion, the 6 of them are pretty clearly going to try to go back (even if we spend many episodes watching them come to this decision,) I think we might see Kate return Aaron to Claire's mother next season.


Aaron has to go back. He's one of the six.

Is Ben hoping to go back with them? Why would he think he'd be welcome?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

sjgmoney said:


> Pretty clear to me that if they all have to go back, including dead man Locke, that Aaron must go back too.


My thought is Aaron is the chosen one and probably, aside from Walt, the only one who really needs to go back. Remember, with the others, it was all about the kids


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Moving the island seemed pretty involved. It's odd that Ben didn't share with John the particulars before going off to meet Keamy. In that situation, I can't imagine that he was THAT comfortable about being able to wiggle out of the situation. Heck, Locke couldn't even find the elevator!

That lapse bothered me...


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> They detected a magnetic anomaly because of the enormous release of electromagnetic energy. The normal levels of electromagnetism weren't cloaking the island, they just weren't strong enough for the guys at the listening station to detect. And we have no idea where the station was located, only that it was cold. Seems unlikely that it was arctic though.


Or maybe not that it was too weak, but something happened to punch it through time as well as space. 

The station was not Arctic, as there were mountains. More likely Antarctic. plus, the guys in the station spoke Argentinian, if I recall...closer to Antarctica...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jradford said:


> I think Claire (dead) knows that they might be going back, so the dream is a way to make it clear: "Aaron doesn't go with you." Since, in my opinion, the 6 of them are pretty clearly going to try to go back (even if we spend many episodes watching them come to this decision,) I think we might see Kate return Aaron to Claire's mother next season.


I would think that IF Claire knows they're trying to go back, she'd also know the part about all six of them having to go back.

Not sure what you mean about if the six of them are trying to go back then Aaron would go with Claire's mother. He's one of the six.


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

hefe said:


> The station was not Arctic, as there were mountains. More likely Antarctic. plus, the guys in the station spoke Argentinian, if I recall...closer to Antarctica...


Nope, they were speaking Portuguese -- as where the deck hands on Penny's boat.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hefe said:


> Or maybe not that it was too weak, but something happened to punch it through time as well as space.
> 
> The station was not Arctic, as there were mountains. More likely Antarctic. plus, the guys in the station spoke Argentinian, if I recall...closer to Antarctica...


It was Portuguese, but I don't think it matters. People from all over the world go there, if that's where it was. Who knows if we'll even find out. Well, I think we will, but I think its actual location is much less interesting than the whole story of how Penny knew to search for Desmond by "listening" for magnetic anomalies. My guess is it has something to do with Faraday's research, and some connection to her father's activities, but still, there are a lot of gaps to fill in. It doesn't seem likely that her father would have volunteered very much information to her.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Interesting interview over at tvguide.com with Harold Perrineau who plays Michael. I have to agree with his sentiments. It was a really pointless move to make a big deal about him coming back and then kill him off after about 30 minutes screen time.

*******************

Harold Perrineau Dishes on his Lost Exit (Again)
by Shawna Malcom

Harold Perrineau, Lost

Lost's breathtaking finale will no doubt have fans feverishly dissecting its innumerable puzzles until the show returns in early 2009. (Read our recap and weigh in with your thoughts!) Locke (aka Jeremy Bentham) is in the coffin?! What "very bad things" happened after the Oceanic 6 left the island?? How in Jacob's name is Ben gonna help all of them - plus Locke! - get back there??? And exactly where did the former Others ringleader and that wacky frozen device move the island to?
But at least one major character's fate was definitively sealed with the close of Season 4 when Michael (Harold Perrineau), the suicidal castaway - and father to "real big" mystery boy Walt - perished aboard the fiery freighter. "Michael had an incredibly heroic, noble death," says executive producer Damon Lindelof. "He sacrificed his own life to redeem himself for past mistakes and to help the Oceanic 6 get off the island." Sound familiar? It was this time last year that we were mourning the loss of the similarly selfless Charlie. Though Michael got a little something special that the ex-junkie rock star did not: a surprise send-off from Christian Shephard.

Shortly after he wrapped filming, an emotional Perrineau - who made a much-hyped return to the series in March after leaving in Season 2 - called to chat about his explosive second exit, the mad dash home to be with pregnant wife Brittany and why he feels the lack of a Michael-Walt reunion was "not cool."

TV Guide: Did you know Michael was being killed off when you returned?
Harold Perrineau: I had no idea. It's like, what the hell? I came back for that?

TV Guide: You're laughing as you say that, but you don't sound particularly pleased.
Perrineau: I'm disappointed, mostly because I wanted Michael and Walt to have a happy ending. I was hoping Michael would get it together and actually want to be a father to his kid and try to figure out a way to get back [home]. But this is [the producers'] story. If I were writing it, I would write it differently.

TV Guide:: So when did you get the news?
Perrineau: [Lindelof and fellow executive producer Carlton Cuse] called before the finale scripts were out. They said they weren't going to continue with Michael.

TV Guide:: And what did you say to that?
Perrineau: At this point, I've been on the island, off the island, back on the island - so I just went, "Oh, ok." [Laughs] This is their show and they know what they can or cannot write. I thought it was disappointing and a waste to come back, only to get beat up a few times and then killed. I felt like it was sort of pandering to some fans who wanted to see Michael punished because he betrayed people.

TV Guide: Are you referring to when he shot and killed Ana Lucia and Libby in Season 2?
Perrineau: Exactly. I honestly feel like Michael's death served a really weird bloodlust for the fans.

TV Guide: Were you disappointed Michael and Walt didn't reconnect before your character died? 
Perrineau: Listen, if I'm being really candid, there are all these questions about how they respond to black people on the show. Sayid gets to meet Nadia again, and Desmond and Penny hook up again, but a little black boy and his father hooking up, that wasn't interesting? Instead, Walt just winds up being another fatherless child. It plays into a really big, weird stereotype and, being a black person myself, that wasn't so interesting. [Responds Cuse: "We pride ourselves on having a very racially diverse cast. It's painful when any actor's storyline ends on the show. Harold is a fantastic actor whose presence added enormously to Lost."]

TV Guide: Take me back to your last day of shooting.
Perrineau: My last day was kind of hectic. [Production] was trying to get me out because, at the time, my wife was a centimeter dilated.

TV Guide: Was she in labor at the hospital when you got back to L.A.?
Perrineau: No, I got home and then for another week, the baby would not come! We were like, "Seriously, dude, I was in Hawaii rushing like a madman!" I was talking to the baby, my wife was walking around, practically hiking, but the baby just would not come out! [Laughs] So we went to the hospital a week later and induced. A beautiful little girl came on May 7. Wynter Aria - I thought it was a nice name. It's poetic, and she's a little poetry in our life.

TV Guide: Let's talk highlights. Surely, you had some positive experiences on Lost.
Perrineau: Doing the job in Hawaii was cool. Getting to meet and work with [co-creator] JJ Abrams was very cool. The day we found out the show [premiered] so well [in 2004] was an amazing day. We were all so hopeful and excited. The first season was one of my best years as a working actor. Not to say there weren't tough times, but I loved the first season. And that one of my best friends, Dan [Dae Kim, who plays Jin], and I got to do pretty much the whole finale together.

TV Guide: Dead characters have a way of returning to the show. Would you be open to that?
Perrineau: I'd love to go back and work with people I really like working with, but I would have to know what was happening [story-wise] before I showed up again. Because this [last] storyline, I full-on feel, "No, that's not cool.'"

TV Guide: What's next for you?
Perrineau: This movie I did with Stephen Dorff called Felon is probably coming out at the end of the summer. And I'm in talks for a couple different films.

TV Guide: Any final thoughts?
Perrineau: Just that I hope the show continues to thrill people. I'm sorry to have to go, but I'll see you in another incarnation. I'll re-create myself because that's what I do. That part of leaving is pretty cool.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Harold seems a bit bitter....

Intersting that they just wrapped up shooting a few weeks ago


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I was watching Ben and John go down down down on the elevator and my thought was the ocean. The cold dark cold part of the ocean. Where things freeze and don't work so well. 
Ben broke the transporter machine by putting the metal in it and then went thru the hole in the wall and down. I didn't get the feeling he was using it himself. Just as an entrance to where he needed to get to.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> If Locke is Jeremy Bentham why does the O6 refer to him as Jeremy and not Locke? Ben used many different aliases while off the island but Sayid referred to Ben as Ben while off the island.


Sayed said to Hurley not to say Locke's real name because they were being watched. While it was an effective device to keep the audience in the dark to the big coffin reveal, that's not the only reason.

There's an "in-story" reason as well that has to do with the fact that the Oceanic 6 are being watched (by whom, we don't exactly know, but can assume Widmore). Don't forget that we've seen "Arthur Stevens" (the guy from _The Wire_) come and talk to Hurley, we've had Hurley/Sun talk about being watched when they went to Jin's grave and we had the whole Sayid killing the woman Widmore sent after him (in the episode where it was revealed Sayid was working for Ben), and of course the guy Sayid killed last night outside Hurley's institution. There was also the guy who followed Sayid around during Nadia's funeral that he eventually killed as well (the Ben recruits Sayid scene), but I'm not certain if that guy was really a Widmore good or someone Ben used to set up Sayid. The Oceanic 6 are certainly being watched by those with an interest in the island...



hefe said:


> Tunisia is exactly opposite on the globe from a spot in the south Pacific east of New Zealand. I wonder if there's some sort of pole-to-pole connection with whatever magnetic anomaly is generated...which I only assume occurred because the noise we heard we the same as the noise from when the original hatch blew up.


The producers actually discussed this on the last podcast -- the whole thought that travel is antipodal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes ; basically if you stick a needle through the globe where the two points are) Clearly that seems to be the case.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

So did anyone catch the enhanced repeat of Part 1? We found out who the other three initial survivors were, according to the fake O-6 story - Boone, Libby, and Charlie. I really thought that we'd see something in the finale to explain why they included them in the story. But given that we got a pretty reasonable explanation of why they lied in the first place, I'm not convinced that they'll ever go back and explain that part of it. And other than the fact that they did all die later on the real island, I'm not sure why they chose those three and just those three. Why not Ana-Lucia, Jin (wasn't actually ON the island, I know, but does it matter?), Shannon, Arzt, Nikki, Paolo, other minor characters, etc.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DAMN EVERYONE!

As I read what I had missed in the thread, I wrote down little notes as to what to say. If I do say them, it'll be one huge smeek.

I still want to know why Claire's accent went away in Kate's vision.

Greg


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

gchance said:


> DAMN EVERYONE!
> 
> As I read what I had missed in the thread, I wrote down little notes as to what to say. If I do say them, it'll be one huge smeek.
> 
> ...


Heck, Jin spoke a whole different language in Hurley's dream. I wouldn't make much of it.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> It was Portuguese, but I don't think it matters.


That's right, Portuguese...that's Brazilian...I had a wire crossed.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Harold seems a bit bitter....
> 
> Intersting that they just wrapped up shooting a few weeks ago


I rolled my eyes through most of that interview.


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## sjgmoney (Jun 13, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> So did anyone catch the enhanced repeat of Part 1? We found out who the other three initial survivors were, according to the fake O-6 story - Boone, Libby, and Charlie. I really thought that we'd see something in the finale to explain why they included them in the story. But given that we got a pretty reasonable explanation of why they lied in the first place, I'm not convinced that they'll ever go back and explain that part of it. And other than the fact that they did all die later on the real island, I'm not sure why they chose those three and just those three. Why not Ana-Lucia, Jin (wasn't actually ON the island, I know, but does it matter?), Shannon, Arzt, Nikki, Paolo, other minor characters, etc.


I think they wanted to name those that died on the island for sure. All 3 of those were seen dying by them, and (from a writers and fans standpoint) were at one time major story characters. Of course Ana Lucia could also have been a possibility but they may have wanted to keep the numbers low to make their story more simple. Jin's fate is unknown plus probbly too painful for Sun to lie about.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> So did anyone catch the enhanced repeat of Part 1? We found out who the other three initial survivors were, according to the fake O-6 story - Boone, Libby, and Charlie. I really thought that we'd see something in the finale to explain why they included them in the story. But given that we got a pretty reasonable explanation of why they lied in the first place, I'm not convinced that they'll ever go back and explain that part of it. And other than the fact that they did all die later on the real island, I'm not sure why they chose those three and just those three. Why not Ana-Lucia, Jin (wasn't actually ON the island, I know, but does it matter?), Shannon, Arzt, Nikki, Paolo, other minor characters, etc.


I don't get that either...like why say Boone and not mention Shannon? I can understand: Let's choose these because we KNOW they are dead and there's no way they can come back and mess up our story. But why not mention the other ones that actually died for real on the island?


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Posting from a library PC under time pressure...
For those of you questioning wheter LOST's writers have abandoned their science statement with the moving island, etc., they in true sci-fi tradition mentioned the Casimir effect (seen as a strange force between two plates placed within nanometers of each other). That has to do with a poorly understood physcs phenomenon possibly related to 'negative energy' that the also mentioned. Physicists like Kip Thorne UCLA et. al. speculate about using negative energy tunnels to send objects thru space and time.

Add me to the list that thinks Jin lives. He was up on deck and the ship blew the center section and later quickly sank.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

sjgmoney said:


> I think they wanted to name those that died on the island for sure. All 3 of those were seen dying by them, and (from a writers and fans standpoint) were at one time major story characters. Of course Ana Lucia could also have been a possibility but they may have wanted to keep the numbers low to make their story more simple. Jin's fate is unknown plus probbly too painful for Sun to lie about.





unicorngoddess said:


> I don't get that either...like why say Boone and not mention Shannon? I can understand: Let's choose these because we KNOW they are dead and there's no way they can come back and mess up our story. But why not mention the other ones that actually died for real on the island?


I agree about it making sense to choose people who died on the island, _just in case_, but if they wanted to keep the number low, why not just go with zero?

I understand people's skepticism, but I think the writers intended the same degree of certainty about Jin's fate as they did about Charlie's at the end of last season. In other words, I have no doubt that he's dead, but it's somewhat immaterial to this question. In any case, it's clear that the O-6, lacking the perspective we have as viewers of the show who have reason to be skeptical of such things, have no doubt that he's dead. But yes, what you said about Sun is as good a reason as any not to include him.

Still, I wonder if there's more to their story that required the inclusion of the other three. Is there something else that they would have to explain that would make them essential to the story?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Still, I wonder if there's more to their story that required the inclusion of the other three. Is there something else that they would have to explain that would make them essential to the story?


And why was that not in the episode as it originally aired? Did they change their minds about something? Or did they just feel like they wanted to hang another mystery out there?


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Still, I wonder if there's more to their story that required the inclusion of the other three. Is there something else that they would have to explain that would make them essential to the story?


The fact that there were three, maybe. Who they were, though, couldn't possibly be important to the story. Their names weren't even in the episode the first time it aired.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I understand people's skepticism, but I think the writers intended the same degree of certainty about Jin's fate as they did about Charlie's at the end of last season. In other words, I have no doubt that he's dead, but it's somewhat immaterial to this question.


I don't agree. With Charlie, they showed him drowning. And then go eyes wide open. We never saw Jin after he was racing down the end of the freighter. He could have easily been blown off the end, and saved later.

It was interesting that they never showed us the island, or anyone on the island, once it moved. The rest of the episode was focused on off-island events.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I agree about it making sense to choose people who died on the island, _just in case_, but if they wanted to keep the number low, why not just go with zero?


Exactly. What did it add to their story to even say that there were 3 other survivors that died after the initial crash? Why not just say just the five of them survived and then later Kate gave birth on the island.

The only reason I can think is the writers just wanted to keep us guessing about who all the O6 REALLY were and wanted to keep the fate of some others a secret.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I don't agree. With Charlie, they showed him drowning. And then go eyes wide open. We never saw Jin after he was racing down the end of the freighter. He could have easily been blown off the end, and saved later.


Something just occurred to me, I don't think I've seen this commented on.

If anyone from the freighter *did *survive, wouldn't they have appeared by now? Now being three years later. Wouldn't the freighter be outside of the "island moving effect"? Hence anyone who lived thru the explosion and didn't drown, they would have to be "somewhere". So Jin would have surfaced. As would any other survivors?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> Exactly. What did it add to their story to even say that there were 3 other survivors that died after the initial crash? Why not just say just the five of them survived and then later Kate gave birth on the island.


I think the story was more believable to say that others survived the crash...


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hefe said:


> And why was that not in the episode as it originally aired? Did they change their minds about something? Or did they just feel like they wanted to hang another mystery out there?





aindik said:


> The fact that there were three, maybe. Who they were, though, couldn't possibly be important to the story. Their names weren't even in the episode the first time it aired.


I believe it was just an editing decision. I guess they need to squeeze more commercial time in on the first-run episodes.

Well, I think the only important part about the names they chose was like unicorngoddess pointed out: they're definitely dead.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

astrohip said:


> It was interesting that they never showed us the island, or anyone on the island, once it moved. The rest of the episode was focused on off-island events.


Yep. They want the viewers to live in the same doubt about who survived, and what happened to the island, as the O6 group.

Unlike Charlie, and apparently Michael, Jin may have a chance. I hope so, anyway.

And for everyone who's trying to figure out why the Island is appearing as Christian Shephard - it's easy, Jacob is the alien from Contact.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

astrohip said:


> I don't agree. With Charlie, they showed him drowning. And then go eyes wide open. We never saw Jin after he was racing down the end of the freighter. He could have easily been blown off the end, and saved later.
> 
> It was interesting that they never showed us the island, or anyone on the island, once it moved. The rest of the episode was focused on off-island events.


That's sort of my point: we never actually saw Charlie 100% unequivocally dead, yet not only did he turn out to be dead, the writers said they they never meant for there to be any doubt. The "could have" scenario you describe is no different than what people were saying "could have" happened with Charlie last year.

Who knows, I could be wrong. I'm just saying that there is no doubt about it in my mind.

Yeah, I guess they always want to leave us completely clueless about something during the off-season. Although I think that we got a greater degree of closure about more things with this finale than with any of the previous ones.


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

jamesbobo said:


> Two possible reasons: 1)She thinks Jin is alive (this is after she visited his tombstone with Hurley) and Widmore is the only way to find the Island.
> 2)She thinks Ben is responsible for Jin's death and this is revenge against him.


Or... she blames Widmore (it was his ship that blew up after all) and she's working for Ben like Sayid.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Well, I think the only important part about the names they chose was like unicorngoddess pointed out: they're definitely dead.


I would've at least picked three that were more definately dead than others though. They never got Charlie's body out of the water. So it would almost seem safer to go ahead and say Boone, Shannon and Libby.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

madscientist said:


> The "future" is today: if they were rescued in early 2005 and as Kate said, it's been 3 years then the airport scene happened in late 2007/early 2008. But that leaves 3 years of things happening on the island. Locke/Bentham said that "very bad things happened" and they were all Jack's fault for leaving; I'm quite sure that statement won't be left to stand without any explanation, and flashbacks are the most reasonable way to tell that story. My prediction: next season's "present" will be set today as they try to get back to the island, and the flashes will all be flash backwards again... back to the "past" on the island.


Count me in this one too. And then the final season probably will have no flashbacks as it races towards the end when the Oceanic 6 + a few others arrive on the island.

A couple of random thoughts:
- A stunning season finale. Now we gotta wait til January. Ugh!

- I do agree that it was kind of cruel to bring Michael (seeing how bitter Harold Perrineau is in his TV Guide interview) back only to kill him off, but like my wife said, he got his redemption, like Charlie did. I'm curious to see what Team Darlton has to say about Michael's death and their raison d'etre for it.

- I am not convinced that Ben time traveled anywhere UNTIL he turned the wheel and was somehow teleported to Tunisia where he meets Sayid in Iraq. The metal was obviously used to puncture the hole (like what happens when you put metal in a microwave) where he was able to climb LADDERS (obviously showing that people have been there before) down to the donkey wheel. Clues that point to this include the existence of a PARKA in a tropical island in the Orchid Station.

- In addition to the last thought above, we now know the approximate time frame in his time traveling: 3 years. As far as Ben's concerned he has JUST seen these people when they were on the island, but everybody is three years older. How Ben is intimately aware of what's going on and not disoriented after three years' lapse of events is a question that needs to be answered.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

vertigo235 said:


> Well it should be...


My apologies, I hadn't yet watched when I posted. Bad poster, bad!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

tewcewl said:


> - In addition to the last thought above, we now know the approximate time frame in his time traveling: 3 years. As far as Ben's concerned he has JUST seen these people when they were on the island, but everybody is three years older. How Ben is intimately aware of what's going on and not disoriented after three years' lapse of events is a question that needs to be answered.


I'm not sure how precise we can be about that. (I'm sure I'm forgetting something) But the off island scenes have ranged in time from very soon after the rescue, to 3 years later. We've seen Jack normal, responsible, engaged to Kate, and we've seen him in a mess and estranged from her. Over what time period did certain events happen, and when on that timeline did Ben appear in Tunisia?


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> - In addition to the last thought above, we now know the approximate time frame in his time traveling: 3 years. As far as Ben's concerned he has JUST seen these people when they were on the island, but everybody is three years older. How Ben is intimately aware of what's going on and not disoriented after three years' lapse of events is a question that needs to be answered.


Actually, he has been back for a while. The real question is when did he appear in the desert and how long until he encounters Sayid in Iraq?

When they meet, there had been enough time for Sayid and Nadia to get married, Nadia to die and for Sayid to set out looking for revenge. I think according to the episode there had been about a year between the rescue and Sayid going to work for Ben.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

hefe said:


> I'm not sure how precise we can be about that. (I'm sure I'm forgetting something) But the off island scenes have ranged in time from very soon after the rescue, to 3 years later. We've seen Jack normal, responsible, engaged to Kate, and we've seen him in a mess and estranged from her. Over what time period did certain events happen, and when on that timeline did Ben appear in Tunisia?


In last night's episode, Kate said the airport scene was three years after they returned. I'm sure she wasn't being completely precise, but that would put it at December 2007.

In Ben's episode, "The Shape of Things to Come," he checks into a hotel and asks the clerk to confirm that it's October 24, 2005, which she does.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

aintnosin said:


> Actually, he has been back for a while. The real question is when did he appear in the desert and how long until he encounters Sayid in Iraq?
> 
> When they meet, there had been enough time for Sayid and Nadia to get married, Nadia to die and for Sayid to set out looking for revenge. I think according to the episode there had been about a year between the rescue and Sayid going to work for Ben.


I think he appeared in the desert very shortly before he got to the hotel, which was on October 24, 2005. I think they would have given us a hint if there had been a significant passage of time.


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I think he appeared in the desert very shortly before he got to the hotel, which was on October 24, 2005. I think they would have given us a hint if there had been a significant passage of time.


You're right. If he hadn't _just_ gotten back, he wouldn't have asked the date, would he?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

aindik said:


> In last night's episode, Kate said the airport scene was three years after they returned. I'm sure she wasn't being completely precise, but that would put it at December 2007.
> 
> In Ben's episode, "The Shape of Things to Come," he checks into a hotel and asks the clerk to confirm that it's October 24, 2005, which she does.


Well, there you go.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

One thing I was looking for but didn't see...the person taking the picture of the O6 as they walked up the beach. They had that photo at the press conference.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hefe said:


> One thing I was looking for but didn't see...the person taking the picture of the O6 as they walked up the beach. They had that photo at the press conference.


I was wondering the same thing. I'm guessing it was just someone in the village. I doubt it's a big deal.


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## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

When Faraday was loading the boat for the last time, why did he tell Miles and the redhead that they needed to be on that boat in 10 minutes? Did he know that was going to be the last trip back to the freighter?

Did he know the island was going to move?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I was wondering the same thing. I'm guessing it was just someone in the village. I doubt it's a big deal.


Yeah, not a big deal...just sort of cool to connect all the dots.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

aintnosin said:


> Or... she blames Widmore (it was his ship that blew up after all) and she's working for Ben like Sayid.


I would be all that surprised if it's the other way around... i.e., Ben (and Sayid) are on Sun's 'payroll'.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

Do we know how many trips Daniel had taken to the freighter? I thought he was only taking his second group back to the freighter when the island moved and the freighter blew up. But a friend thinks he was mostly done bringing people to the freighter, which would mean that many of the people from the island were on the freighter and are therefore dead.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

GadgetFreak said:


> When Faraday was loading the boat for the last time, why did he tell Miles and the redhead that they needed to be on that boat in 10 minutes? Did he know that was going to be the last trip back to the freighter?
> 
> Did he know the island was going to move?


He knew what the Orchid was and knew that Keamy et al. were going there. He also knew what the secondary protocol was (though, I'm not sure we know what that is, I'm guessing it involves killing everyone on the island).

He obviously didn't know that the freighter itself was about to blow to smithereens.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I agree about it making sense to choose people who died on the island, _just in case_, but if they wanted to keep the number low, why not just go with zero?
> 
> I understand people's skepticism, but I think the writers intended the same degree of certainty about Jin's fate as they did about Charlie's at the end of last season. In other words, I have no doubt that he's dead, but it's somewhat immaterial to this question. In any case, it's clear that the O-6, lacking the perspective we have as viewers of the show who have reason to be skeptical of such things, have no doubt that he's dead. But yes, what you said about Sun is as good a reason as any not to include him.
> 
> Still, I wonder if there's more to their story that required the inclusion of the other three. Is there something else that they would have to explain that would make them essential to the story?





aindik said:


> The fact that there were three, maybe. Who they were, though, couldn't possibly be important to the story. Their names weren't even in the episode the first time it aired.





unicorngoddess said:


> Exactly. What did it add to their story to even say that there were 3 other survivors that died after the initial crash? Why not just say just the five of them survived and then later Kate gave birth on the island.
> 
> The only reason I can think is the writers just wanted to keep us guessing about who all the O6 REALLY were and wanted to keep the fate of some others a secret.


I think there's very little put in "just to keep us guessing." Given this story of three others was mentioned in earlier episodes (Jack's testimony on the stand at Kate's trial), I think there has to be some significance to those three names and to why three additional survivors were put into the story at all...



Sirius Black said:


> Aaron has to go back. He's one of the six.
> 
> Is Ben hoping to go back with them? Why would he think he'd be welcome?


What about Sun's/Jin's baby? Does he/she need to go back as well?


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Don't know if this has ever been speculated on in other threads, but I'll be the first to throw it out in this one:

Charlotte is one of the kidnapped kids from the tail section.


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## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

Jin's not dead. He'll be swimming to the life raft next season.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

dslunceford said:


> What about Sun's/Jin's baby? Does he/she need to go back as well?


Oh no. I sense another acorn debate. I guess it depends which side Jacob is on.

Seriously though, good question.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

spikedavis said:


> TV Guide: Were you disappointed Michael and Walt didn't reconnect before your character died?
> Perrineau: Listen, if I'm being really candid, there are all these questions about how they respond to black people on the show. Sayid gets to meet Nadia again, and Desmond and Penny hook up again, but a little black boy and his father hooking up, that wasn't interesting? Instead, Walt just winds up being another fatherless child. It plays into a really big, weird stereotype and, being a black person myself, that wasn't so interesting. [Responds Cuse: "We pride ourselves on having a very racially diverse cast. It's painful when any actor's storyline ends on the show. Harold is a fantastic actor whose presence added enormously to Lost."


Oh for God sakes! Why is everything a race issue....I mean come on. You weren't a favorite character in fact the fans hated you so the writers decided to get rid of you after your storyline played itself out. Your character goes out a hero, what else do you need! I was disappointed to see your character die, now after this interview I say good riddance!

It has nothing to do with you being black!


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

3D said:


> Don't know if this has ever been speculated on in other threads, but I'll be the first to throw it out in this one:
> 
> Charlotte is one of the kidnapped kids from the tail section.


not sure about that, she said she was looking for where she was born, and no one except aaron has been born on the island


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

robbhimself said:


> not sure about that, she said she was looking for where she was born, and no one except aaron has been born on the island


I guess it depends on if there are multiple ways to interpret where someone considers the person that they are to have been born . I have no evidence to back up my conjecture, but merely think it would be cool and in keeping with a time travel story arc, of which there are many indications that this is where the show is headed (if it isn't already there). IIRC, one of the kidnapped kids had the same colored hair, but it's been awhile since I watched S2.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

crazywater said:


> Oh for God sakes! Why is everything a race issue....I mean come on. You weren't a favorite character in fact the fans hated you so the writers decided to get rid of you after your storyline played itself out. Your character goes out a hero, what else do you need! I was disappointed to see your character die, now after this interview I say good riddance!
> 
> It has nothing to do with you being black!


+1


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the ice room is in a polar region, and the point of overloading the time travel machine was to open a portal to the ice room. So first he was transported to the polar ice room by the bunny machine, and then he was transported to the desert by the donkey wheel (with possible collateral polar bear transportage).


I got the same impression, mainly because:

a) It looked like he was outside when he climbed out of the cave and fell down the ladder. I know this is LOST, but why would an underground cave have sunlight?

b) It looked like a polar region, which brings up the polar bear connection, as well as being reminiscent of the past finale where we saw Penny's workers notice the hatch explosion on their computers.

There was definitely an Alice in Wonderland "down the rabbit hole" vibe to that whole scene. I have to think the rabbits in the experiment where alluding to that connection.


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## Big_Daddy (Nov 20, 2002)

dslunceford said:


> I think there's very little put in "just to keep us guessing." Given this story of three others was mentioned in earlier episodes (Jack's testimony on the stand at Kate's trial), I think there has to be some significance to those three names and to why three additional survivors were put into the story at all...


I'm not sure that the details of their lie has any significance. We know it isn't true.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

crazywater said:


> Oh for God sakes! Why is everything a race issue....I mean come on. You weren't a favorite character in fact the fans hated you so the writers decided to get rid of you after your storyline played itself out. Your character goes out a hero, what else do you need! I was disappointed to see your character die, now after this interview I say good riddance!
> 
> It has nothing to do with you being black!


Touchy? After reading that interview, I suspect Harold was always bitter that his character was a stereotypical absent black father. In the early seasons, he was reconnecting with Walt, not playing into the stereotype. Then this season, they bring him back only to abandon Walt with grandma and then die a violent death. Hmm, I can't really blame him for not being thrilled with that.


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

spikedavis said:


> Harold Perrineau: I had no idea. It's like, what the hell? I came back for that?


No kidding. Mr. "May I Have Some Peanuts" and his friends had a bigger roles in the season.


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## gschrock (Dec 28, 2001)

Hmm, so am I the only person that really thought it would have been perfect to end that episode right after the island disappeared from in front of them? Or am I just a sadistic bastard?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I'm with the folks who doubt that Michael and Jin are dead. I think ghost Christian saved them. But I'm now in the camp of those who believe that Claire IS dead. Her appearance to Kate convinced me of that.

I loved how coldblooded Sayid was in this ep. His fight with Keamy was some of the best fight choreography of the series. I enjoyed it. His visit to Hurley in the hospital was wicked. I actually thought for a moment that he might assassinate Hurley. His hair looked great!

I also thought of the spotlight boat from S1 when the rafters saw a spotlight coming toward them, and thought someone might kidnap Aaron. I'm glad it was Penny though, and that she and Des are reunited, at least for now.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

gschrock said:


> Hmm, so am I the only person that really thought it would have been perfect to end that episode right after the island disappeared from in front of them? Or am I just a sadistic bastard?


I would have loved that!


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## GadgetFreak (Jun 3, 2002)

crazywater said:


> Oh for God sakes! Why is everything a race issue....I mean come on. You weren't a favorite character in fact the fans hated you so the writers decided to get rid of you after your storyline played itself out. Your character goes out a hero, what else do you need! I was disappointed to see your character die, now after this interview I say good riddance!
> 
> It has nothing to do with you being black!


Agreed. the fact that some fans disliked you was not because you were black. Most fans were bummed out when Mr. Eko died.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

3D said:


> I guess it depends on if there are multiple ways to interpret where someone considers the person that they are to have been born .


Well, she also didn't say she was born on the island, she just implied that being on the island was a better way to find the place where she was born than leaving would. The obvious interpretation is that she was born on the island, but there may be information we are lacking that would put her comment in a completely different light.

I know, I know, the concept that Lost would withhold information from us is shocking and implausible, but I humbly put forth the possibility. 


betts4 said:


> I'm with the folks who doubt that Michael and Jin are dead. I think ghost Christian saved them.


Well, not so much Michael. He was standing next to the bomb, and Christian virtually gave him permission to finally die. I think that even if the island had any further use for him it would be hard-pressed to reassemble him from the sludge that is what is left of him now. But Jin is certainly an open question (unlike Charlie, whom we last saw with a lungful of water, not a condition compatible with life!).


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

GadgetFreak said:


> Agreed. the fact that some fans disliked you was not because you were black.


You totally missed the point of what he was saying, apparently.

I for one think his character was completely wasted this season. I wish he would have gotten off the boat.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

betts4 said:


> I'm with the folks who doubt that Michael and Jin are dead. I think ghost Christian saved them. But I'm now in the camp of those who believe that Claire IS dead. Her appearance to Kate convinced me of that.


Jin, maybe, Michael, he is dead.

I'm one of those people that felt a slight possibility that Charlie wasn't dead.
However other than actually seeing his body fly apart, I don't see any other interpretations. He was sitting ON the bomb basically and the island or Jacob or whomever told him he could go now, after having prevented him from being killed on more than one occasion.

I'm 100% certain Michael is dead and will stay dead.

And +1 on those who were annoyed by the actors interview. No one EVER liked Michael and were happy to see him gone the first time. He at least got a measure of redemption and went out like a hero instead of a traitorous coward from before. He should be thanking the show for redeeming the character somewhat this season.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

MickeS said:


> You totally missed the point of what he was saying, apparently.
> 
> I for one think his character was completely wasted this season. I wish he would have gotten off the boat.


I don't think it was a waste at all. If anything, this season made his character "worth" something.
He came back and paid the ultimate sacrifice to right the wrongs he committed in the past. What more worthy a cause then that?


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

In the HD screencap of the explosion, you see no one on deck where Jin would have been standing. A second screencap as the ship in sinking shows no one in the water. I have to go with dead on this one.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Scubee said:


> In the HD screencap of the explosion, you see no one on deck where Jin would have been standing. A second screencap as the ship in sinking shows no one in the water. I have to go with dead on this one.


But the thing about that is there were about a dozen other people running around with life vests on...Desmond was handing them out to people. I swear I saw people jumping off the boat trying to flee. Could they have just gotten pulled down in the suction and just had to kick themselves back up...only time will tell.

But I don't recall Jin being one of the ones that put on a life vest.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

MickeS said:


> You totally missed the point of what he was saying, apparently.


Nope. He felt that his storyline was related to the color of his skin. I disagree.

Should Matthew Fox complain that they made him a druggie? How racially biased!


----------



## marcello696 (Jun 18, 2004)

being a black man I have to defend Harold's point of why did they have him die and not have some resolution with Walt. The stereotype is that black men abandon their children and I for one would have liked to see Micheal be redeemed in Walt's eyes before he died.

BUT with all that said this is LOST and Walt's comment to Hurley makes me think we will see Michael again. He might be dead but on this show that doesnt mean anything and hopefully Michael and Walt will get a final resolution.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> I believe it was just an editing decision. I guess they need to squeeze more commercial time in on the first-run episodes.


Yeah. They cut other scenes to make room for the new ones. They intentionally filmed extra scenes to give people an incentive to watch the repeat before the finale. My guess is the DVD will have the entire, uncut episode with all scenes.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

betts4 said:


> I loved how coldblooded Sayid was in this ep. His fight with Keamy was some of the best fight choreography of the series. I enjoyed it.


That was my favorite scene of the first hour. It was a great fight despite the fact that it ended with the ultra cliche: bad guy gets shot by someone off screen just before he kills good guy.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

DLiquid said:


> Then this season, they bring him back only to abandon Walt with grandma and then die a violent death. Hmm, I can't really blame him for not being thrilled with that.


I wouldn't consider him to have abandoned Walt after returning. He wanted to spend time with Walt, and was suicidal because he wasn't allowed to.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

marcello696 said:


> being a black man I have to defend Harold's point of why did they have him die and not have some resolution with Walt. The stereotype is that black men abandon their children and I for one would have liked to see Micheal be redeemed in Walt's eyes before he died.
> 
> BUT with all that said this is LOST and Walt's comment to Hurley makes me think we will see Michael again. He might be dead but on this show that doesnt mean anything and hopefully Michael and Walt will get a final resolution.


Hurley knew Michael was dead but didn't tell Walt. Paraphrasing:
Walt: Why are you all lying?
Hurley: To protect the people that are still there.
Walt: Like my dad?
Hurley: Yep, like your dad.

Hurley watched Michael blow up.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

DLiquid said:


> That was my favorite scene of the first hour. It was a great fight despite the fact that it ended with the ultra cliche: bad guy gets shot by someone off screen just before he kills good guy.


You forgot the even worse cliche of the bad guy not really being dead.

You would think Sayid would be smart enough to give the guy an insurance shot to the head...


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> You forgot the even worse cliche of the bad guy not really being dead.


Yeah, you're right.


----------



## marcello696 (Jun 18, 2004)

aindik said:


> Hurley knew Michael was dead but didn't tell Walt. Paraphrasing:
> Walt: Why are you all lying?
> Hurley: To protect the people that are still there.
> Walt: Like my dad?
> ...


agreed I believe Michael is dead but that doesn't mean we wont see him again


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> I wouldn't consider him to have abandoned Walt after returning. He wanted to spend time with Walt, and was suicidal because he wasn't allowed to.


I'm forgetting how it went down. Why wasn't he allowed to spend time with Walt?


----------



## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

robbhimself said:


> not sure about that, she said she was looking for where she was born, and no one except aaron has been born on the island


You know, I didn't take her statement literally meaning "birthed on the island." I thought her comment to Faraday meant something else...like it's where she learned her purpose in life...


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DLiquid said:


> I'm forgetting how it went down. Why wasn't he allowed to spend time with Walt?


He told Walt everything he had to do in order to get Walt back from The Others. Walt wasn't too thrilled with his dad's actions and didn't want to have anything to do with him.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

crazywater said:


> Oh for God sakes! Why is everything a race issue....I mean come on. You weren't a favorite character in fact the fans hated you so the writers decided to get rid of you after your storyline played itself out. Your character goes out a hero, what else do you need! I was disappointed to see your character die, now after this interview I say good riddance!
> 
> It has nothing to do with you being black!


The interview came across kind of bitter, but I don't think his point is trivial and I think you're 100% wrong when you say "it has nothing to do with him being black." It was important to him (the actor) that originally he was getting to play a black man that was attempting to buck what he saw as a trend of the black absentee father. Them (the producers/writers) killing him off obviously wasn't racially motivated, but him being killed off DID play into a racial stereotype that many people have. Thus, he was disappointed, and that is directly related to him being black. I don't see any problem with him being straightforward about that.

Unfortunately, I think some people are going to, and will continue to, interpret the interview as him saying, "they only killed me because I'm black." That's not how I took it.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Sirius Black said:


> Aaron has to go back. He's one of the six.
> 
> Is Ben hoping to go back with them? Why would he think he'd be welcome?


That puts a crimp in my theory, (especially the way I worded it,) but I still think we'll be seeing Kate doing whatever she can to keep Aaron from going back while still trying to go herself...if that makes sense.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jradford said:


> The interview came across kind of bitter, but I don't think his point is trivial and I think you're 100% wrong when you say "it has nothing to do with him being black." It was important to him (the actor) that originally he was getting to play a black man that was attempting to buck what he saw as a trend of the black absentee father. Them (the producers/writers) killing him off obviously wasn't racially motivated, but him being killed off DID play into a racial stereotype that many people have. Thus, he was disappointed, and that is directly related to him being black. I don't see any problem with him being straightforward about that.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think some people are going to, and will continue to, interpret the interview as him saying, "they only killed me because I'm black." That's not how I took it.


+1
Pretty much exactly what I was thinking...


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

robbhimself said:


> no one except aaron has been born on the island


Says who?

Where (and when) was Richard born? What about the rest of the Others?


----------



## grecorj (Feb 6, 2002)

Just a small point on the Michael/Walt storyline.

Didn't he agree to help, in part, so that he could redeem himself?

The "grandmother" was the one standing between Michael and Walt...

If Michael died for a noble cause, thus redeeming himself, that would seem to be the end of the storyline?


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

tewcewl said:


> I am not convinced that Ben time traveled anywhere UNTIL he turned the wheel and was somehow teleported to Tunisia where he meets Sayid in Iraq. The metal was obviously used to puncture the hole (like what happens when you put metal in a microwave) where he was able to climb LADDERS (obviously showing that people have been there before) down to the donkey wheel. Clues that point to this include the existence of a PARKA in a tropical island in the Orchid Station.


Yeah, I also think the wheel was on the island. Dharma built their device to harness the exotic matter contained by the wheel for their experiments, but we don't know who built the wheel. Could have been Dharma; could have be someone else. Ben was just blowing a hole in Dharma's device to get to the wheel. I don't think he was using it as a means to teleport to where the wheel was.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

grecorj said:


> Just a small point on the Michael/Walt storyline.
> 
> Didn't he agree to help, in part, so that he could redeem himself?
> 
> The "grandmother" was the one standing between Michael and Walt...


Only because Michael couldn't keep it to himself that he had killed two people on the island in order to save Walt. I don't think Walt would be with the grandmother if he didn't know what Michael did.



grecorj said:


> If Michael died for a noble cause, thus redeeming himself, that would seem to be the end of the storyline?


What the actor was saying that it's not redemption in the eyes of Walt if Walt doesn't know about it.

Michael is dead, but I wonder if we'll see Walt again. Now that they're three years in the future, they can use the actor again. I wonder if he's among the people that have to go back. It would be nice to know what was so important about Walt to the Others.

On another note, for Locke to say that really bad things happened when the six left, they must be really really bad things. Considering the guilt Jack feels, and considering he's saying that in the context of all the stuff we've already seen, like what happened is much worse.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Some cool articles over at Popular Mechanics by a couple of physics professors on time-travel and the Casimir effect: Article 1, Article 2

Oh, and one by the Mythbuster dude about the C4 on the freighter: Article 3


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

So I'm just watching this again...I'm just wondering, why did the Orientation Tape go into rewind and Locke couldn't get it to stop. I wanted to see the rest of the Orientation tape.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

zync said:


> What the heck - they couldn't have moved the dead man switch quickly enough to keep it "ticking"?


That's what I thought too, but I guess we have to go with the dramatic license.


TiVotion said:


> Side note, the comedy interplay between Ben and John in the Orchid was great. Something to the effect of - (John) Is this what I think it is? (Ben) Moving rabbits through time? Yes.


"What? Time traveling bunnies? Yes."


zync said:


> Oh another thought. The frozen wheel was in a cave that was accessed by blowing a hole in the transportation chamber. So we can assume that the wheel hasn't been accessed since the Dharma was built. So Ben had access to some information (location and function of the wheel, how to access, etc.) - perhaps something he got some Jacob at some point?
> 
> Clearly Ben had a lot of knowledge that did NOT transfer to John. I'm surprised since Ben knew he was out and John in, why did he not give John a brain dump of things that he really ought to know.





Paperboy2003 said:


> Moving the island seemed pretty involved. It's odd that Ben didn't share with John the particulars before going off to meet Keamy. In that situation, I can't imagine that he was THAT comfortable about being able to wiggle out of the situation. Heck, Locke couldn't even find the elevator!
> 
> That lapse bothered me...


Ben very clearly told John that after he left the Orchid station, he would go two miles east to find Richard and the rest of the Others, and they'd tell him everything he needed to know, and then Locke would be their leader. To me that implied that Ben learned about all that stuff from Richard, and that Locke would as well.


madscientist said:


> I thought the entire scene with Walt was kind of lame. What was the point of this? It didn't seem to advance the story or even serve any expository purpose.


It only served the purpose of pointing out that Jeremy Bentham was visiting all the survivors who left the island, including Walt.


Rob Helmerichs said:


> So you think he was still on the island when he turned the Island Moving Lever?


He absolutely was on the island. As BitbyBlit said, the Orchid vault was built on top of a pocket of "Exotic Matter," which was what started glowing when Ben started turning the wheel. Ben knew this room was cold due to the information he'd received from Richard, which is why he put on the parka.


Donbadabon said:


> Faraday is a weasel. He really pisses me off.


 What did Faraday do to elicit this kind of feeling? I liked the character and would be happy to find out he didn't die and could explain more of the mystery.


Sirius Black said:


> How long has it been since we've had five pages of discussion less than 12 hours since the airing of an episode? Maybe this is a common thing.


Well, considering that your comment was made in the middle of page 3 ...

 I'll never understand why people don't have their settings on 50 posts per page.


speedcouch said:


> I called Sawyer jumping out of the copter right before he did it (based on the goodbye kiss with Kate shown immediately before in the previews for this episode), so that spoiled it a bit for me. Still great proof of how much character Sawyer has developed since coming to the island.
> 
> Cheryl


I think everyone called Sawyer jumping out the chopper at that point. We knew he wasn't one of the O6, and as soon as Frank said they needed to shed weight, it was pretty obvious.


marcello696 said:


> BUT with all that said this is LOST and Walt's comment to Hurley makes me think we will see Michael again. He might be dead but on this show that doesnt mean anything and hopefully Michael and Walt will get a final resolution.


As aindik said, I thought Hurley's facial expression and body language in that scene very clearly said that he knew Michael was dead but didn't have the heart to tell Walt.

I think the Multiquote feature was designed specifically for LOST threads.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> ...I wanted to see the rest of the Orientation tape.


That's why.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I'm wondering if all the people on the raft got unstuck in time. That could explain how Faraday ended up how he was. Or maybe that will come later when he tries doing something at the Orchid.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned:

the glow from the "explosion" when the island was moved was, deliberately I assume, similar to what happened when the timer in The Swan was allowed to reach zero. Would that imply that the reason the island was found by Widmore was that it was moved then too?

And will we ever get an explanation why that timer had to be reset manually instead of automatically?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Skittles said:


> What can I say? The signs were just right in front of me.
> 
> I think my big question is, why is Sun suddenly trying to work with Widmore?
> 
> ...


hmm, interesting point here...

Since ben was thrust into the future, I guess it could be safe to assume the island was also thrust into the future, that means that less time has passed for the people on the island.


----------



## billboard_NE (May 18, 2005)

They shed all of the extra weight from the helicopter, except for the life raft? How big was this helicopter anyway?

Sawyer goes, but liferaft stays? or did they load the life raft onto the helicopter after it landed on the freighter and taped up the gas tank?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> Nope. He felt that his storyline was related to the color of his skin. I disagree.
> 
> Should Matthew Fox complain that they made him a druggie? How racially biased!


You know, the only other main character that was killed (we think) was Jin.
Who is also a minority.
Perhaps the Asian-Pacific League should mount a protest.



DevdogAZ said:


> I think everyone called Sawyer jumping out the chopper at that point. We knew he wasn't one of the O6, and as soon as Frank said they needed to shed weight, it was pretty obvious.


Yes but did you catch the look on Hurley's face when Frank said that they needed to shed a couple of hundred pounds?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

billboard_NE said:


> They shed all of the extra weight from the helicopter, except for the life raft? How big was this helicopter anyway?
> 
> Sawyer goes, but liferaft stays? or did they load the life raft onto the helicopter after it landed on the freighter and taped up the gas tank?


Maybe they figured a life raft might come in handy if the helicopter crashed.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> Nope. He felt that his storyline was related to the color of his skin.


Yes, he did.

But GadgetFreak wrote "the fact that some fans disliked you was not because you were black." which has nothing to do with what Perrineau was talking about. He said nothing about being disliked for being black.

Which is why GadgetFreak obviously completely missed Perrineaus point.

Personally I think Perrineau was wrong, I think it had nothing to do with Michael being a stereotypical black man (which he wasn't, IMO) and everything to do with the writers just dropping this storyline like they've dropped others.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

JYoung said:


> Perhaps the Asian-Pacific League should mount a protest.


They can get in line right after the WASP league. Weren't Boone and Shannon two of the first main characters killed?


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Amnesia said:


> They can get in line right after the WASP league. Weren't Boone and Shannon two of the first main characters killed?


Really, any group represented in the show could complain; I mean who (and/or what group) has been shown in a positive light? I can only think of a few charactors with a clean slate; Walt, Rose & Bernard are all that come to my mind (& Libby too; but I think there's more to come about her).


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> hmm, interesting point here...
> 
> Since ben was thrust into the future, I guess it could be safe to assume the island was also thrust into the future, that means that less time has passed for the people on the island.


I don't think we can make that conclusion, at least not with that line of reasoning. It might depend a lot on what Dr. Halliwax was going to say before he got cut off. He started talking about moving ahead a short period of time, etc. Also, Ben said that whoever moves the island can never come back, as though moving it and leaving it were one and the same, or must occur at the same time. So I think we have to look at Ben's departure and the island (along with its inhabitants) moving, separately. I don't doubt that there's some sort of shifting in both time and space with the island moving, but not necessarily that it's in synch with Ben. It could just be a few seconds, or less, who knows?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> They can get in line right after the WASP league. Weren't Boone and Shannon two of the first main characters killed?


Well I think his point wasn't only that he'd been killed off, but also that he'd been portrayed like negative stereotypes and hadn't had a chance to redeem himself. But that point itself I disagree with. Walt's mother is the one who left. Granted, Michael didn't have steady work, but he was pursuing his talent that was hard to make money with at first. Plus the accident, etc. He certainly wasn't portrayed as lazy or uncaring. And didn't Michael try to play a part in Walt's life after they were back to the island, and Walt or Michael's mom prevented that? And perhaps it wasn't directly with Walt, but he certainly redeemed himself in the end.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

A couple things before I rewatch... All this talk about going back. Are we to assume that Ben knows where the island is? Or will they be led by dead people? I don't see how anyone else could know.

Isn't it weird that the only way into the "donkey wheel" is by blowing up the chamber in the Orchid Station? Can that be fixed? Does it still move bunnies around? Maybe the Dharma people never found the donkey wheel and accidentally put their station there to use whatever weird properties it has. 

Why doesn't Richard ever get to be leader?

Maybe the secondary protocol was to blow the freighter. The primary protocol was probably capture Ben and blow up the island and everyone on it. After that was done, they couldn't let the crew go back to civilization and tell the story, so they would blow the freighter and Ben, Keamy and a couple of others get away. 

Do we know what the relationship is between Penny and her father? Is she spying on him secretly? He surely doesn't know she is following his freighter around, does he? Does he care enough about her to protect her?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> I don't think we can make that conclusion, at least not with that line of reasoning. It might depend a lot on what Dr. Halliwax was going to say before he got cut off. He started talking about moving ahead a short period of time, etc. Also, Ben said that whoever moves the island can never come back, as though moving it and leaving it were one and the same, or must occur at the same time. So I think we have to look at Ben's departure and the island (along with its inhabitants) moving, separately. I don't doubt that there's some sort of shifting in both time and space with the island moving, but not necessarily that it's in synch with Ben. It could just be a few seconds, or less, who knows?


But still possible, and SAFE to assume. If you wanted to of course


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Why doesn't Richard ever get to be leader?


That's not his role.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Why doesn't Richard ever get to be leader?


The producers are discriminating against him because he's Latino.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> he certainly redeemed himself in the end.


Yeah, the black character sacrificing himself for the white characters, nothing stereotypical about that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Isn't it weird that the only way into the "donkey wheel" is by blowing up the chamber in the Orchid Station? Can that be fixed? Does it still move bunnies around? Maybe the Dharma people never found the donkey wheel and accidentally put their station there to use whatever weird properties it has.


Or maybe causing a deliberate malfunction in a machine designed to transport objects through space and time is the only way to transport oneself to the polar site of the donkey wheel..?

I still think there's almost no chance the ice chamber is on the island. Having it elsewhere makes too much else fall into place (especially the migrating polar bears that end up both at the island and in the desert, which would make sense if there's a third point involved in the transfer located in a polar region).


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Yeah, the black character sacrificing himself for the white characters, nothing stereotypical about that.


The O6 are two white adults, one white baby, a latino, a middle eastern guy and a Korean woman.

The other people for whom Michael thought he was sacrificing himself were a white guy and a Korean guy.

And he was repenting for his murder of a white woman and a latina woman.


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Come on, Frank, you could have done a better autorotation when you ditched!


Especially since you're the Lawnmower Man!


----------



## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> So I'm just watching this again...I'm just wondering, why did the Orientation Tape go into rewind and Locke couldn't get it to stop. I wanted to see the rest of the Orientation tape.


Not the whole film, but "behind the scenes" when Dharma was shooting of the film. Pretty interesting.

http://blog.meevee.com/my_weblog/2008/05/lost-video-orch.html


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

whitson77 said:


> Jin's not dead. He'll be swimming to the life raft next season.


Possible. He was near the fantail and the explosion was in the middle of the ship (although that much C4 probably should have vaporized the ship).


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

MickeS said:


> You totally missed the point of what he was saying, apparently.
> 
> I for one think his character was completely wasted this season. I wish he would have gotten off the boat.


"Destiny ... is a fickle *****."

I think that's the point of the dismissive, seemingly wasteful ending for Michael.

And I think "You can go now" is a clear (cold) indication that he was about to be killed.


----------



## Tivortex (Feb 29, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the ice room is in a polar region, and the point of overloading the time travel machine was to open a portal to the ice room. So first he was transported to the polar ice room by the bunny machine, and then he was transported to the desert by the donkey wheel (with possible collateral polar bear transportage).


This is the first time I've ever seen you be *completely* off base Rob.
Ben blew out the backside of the enclosure to gain access to a tunnel that took him to the donkey wheel, where as a side effect of the (whatever it is in there) the temperature was freezing.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Do we know when Sun's future is, compared to the heavily bearded Jack, andJack & Ben in the funeral home future?

It seems like at that time they discover they ALL have to go back, and since Sun is one of them, she would have to go back too.

Maybe that's why she's stalking Widmore, maybe faking him into meeting her for some business deal, and then she gets him to give her the means to find the island?

-smak-


----------



## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

Tivortex said:


> This is the first time I've ever seen you be *completely* off base Rob.
> Ben blew out the backside of the enclosure to gain access to a tunnel that took him to the donkey wheel, where as a side effect of the (whatever it is in there) the temperature was freezing.


Yeah, I watched it again tonight -- I am 99.99% positive the donkey wheel is on the island.

The producers give no indication that the hole into the cold room is a portal -- I would assume that if it was the case they would make it a little more obvious.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Did anyone notice the hidden message in the recruiting commercial?

(I didn't, but I work at ABC where the promo was produced)


----------



## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

My DirectTV signal went out for about 15 minutes during last night's Lost finale. It went out right when Locke shook Ben's hand just before Ben was going to move the island, and it came back on just as Kate was waking up from a nightmare about Claire. Can someone tell me specifically what happened in between.

Apparently the island was moved and the helicopter crashed, but I'd like more specifics...and did anything else happen?


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

They could still be sticking with science-only explanations. Here's a little light reading.


----------



## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I'm wondering if all the people on the raft got unstuck in time. That could explain how Faraday ended up how he was. Or maybe that will come later when he tries doing something at the Orchid.


I'm not sure of everyone on the raft, but Desmond did have a large red mark across his forehead after he came to, similar to how he hit his head in previous times he's traveled to another consciousness. Although he did just wake up after crashing into the ocean, he had a very odd reaction on his face and didn't say a word to anyone, like he couldn't place where (or when) he was.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I'm a real cynic; or pessimist as the case may be.

When Desmond got off the boat and was running towards Penny, I was 100&#37; sure that a shot was about to ring out, and one of them was going to die in the other's arms right then and there I thought it was going to be him that was going to die there.


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## billboard_NE (May 18, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Maybe they figured a life raft might come in handy if the helicopter crashed.


over Sawyer?? granted it was a good choice to keep the raft.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I'm a real cynic; or pessimist as the case may be.
> 
> When Desmond got off the boat and was running towards Penny, I was 100% sure that a shot was about to ring out, and one of them was going to die in the other's arms right then and there I thought it was going to be him that was going to die there.


Never thought that. The whole helicopter ride, I was wondering how they were going to get rid of the pilot and Desmond. Any time before we saw Penny I thought anything could happen to them.

Once we saw Penny, I knew that she would "hide" Despond & the pilot from being found.

No reason for anybody to die.

-smak-


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

billboard_NE said:


> They shed all of the extra weight from the helicopter, except for the life raft? How big was this helicopter anyway?
> 
> Sawyer goes, but liferaft stays? or did they load the life raft onto the helicopter after it landed on the freighter and taped up the gas tank?


They didn't have the raft when they were running out of fuel (the first time) they got it on the ship. Frank makes a point of telling them to get a life raft.



Tivortex said:


> This is the first time I've ever seen you be *completely* off base Rob.
> Ben blew out the backside of the enclosure to gain access to a tunnel that took him to the donkey wheel, where as a side effect of the (whatever it is in there) the temperature was freezing.


I have to agree with this. The only teleporting that happened is after Ben turned the wheel, not before. The wheel is (clearly) on the island.

BTW, I don't remember who said it, but the theory that in the past polar bears were used to turn the wheel and that's why one was in Africa is awesome.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Isn't it weird that the only way into the "donkey wheel" is by blowing up the chamber in the Orchid Station?





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or maybe causing a deliberate malfunction in a machine designed to transport objects through space and time is the only way to transport oneself to the polar site of the donkey wheel..?
> I still think there's almost no chance the ice chamber is on the island.





Tivortex said:


> This is the first time I've ever seen you be *completely* off base Rob.
> Ben blew out the backside of the enclosure to gain access to a tunnel that took him to the donkey wheel, where as a side effect of the (whatever it is in there) the temperature was freezing.


I agree that all Ben did was deliberately blow a hole in the back of the chamber.

From the orientation video: "_This the vault. Constructed next to what we believe to be a pocket of negatively charged exotic matter..."_

Ben blew a hole in the vault to get to what was next door.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

aindik said:


> The O6 are two white adults, one white baby, a latino, a middle eastern guy and a Korean woman.
> 
> The other people for whom Michael thought he was sacrificing himself were a white guy and a Korean guy.
> 
> And he was repenting for his murder of a white woman and a latina woman.


Well, I was joking anyway. 

Although arab and latino/a is still categorized as white, technically.


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

I am surprised no one mentioned the thong shot of the girl when they were putting the boat in the water. It was out there for everyone to see.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I was just thinking about Locke.

The O6 appear not able to die (Michael not being able to commit suicide, Jack not being able to commit suicide) because they still have "work to do", yet Locke off-island is dead. Perhaps in Locke's case it's the opposite, he must stay on-island or he will die.

Not that it matters, just something I was thinking about.

Greg


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Donbadabon said:


> I am surprised no one mentioned the thong shot of the girl when they were putting the boat in the water. It was out there for everyone to see.


Oh believe me, I noticed it. There wasn't any crackage visible though.

Greg


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Tivortex said:


> This is the first time I've ever seen you be *completely* off base Rob.
> Ben blew out the backside of the enclosure to gain access to a tunnel that took him to the donkey wheel, where as a side effect of the (whatever it is in there) the temperature was freezing.


Wow-I have to agree. That's a stretch. The entire reason he put all that crap in there was to get TO the energy that the chamber was built next to.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I maysmeek now since I can'tstay up later to read it all......

So far, through 5 pages of posts, no one mentioned the purple light and sound when they moved the island. Same as when the "failsafe" was used by Desmond.

Oh, and when Penny showed up....I cried. I admit it.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

gchance said:


> I was just thinking about Locke.
> 
> The O6 appear not able to die (Michael not being able to commit suicide, Jack not being able to commit suicide) because they still have "work to do", yet Locke off-island is dead. Perhaps in Locke's case it's the opposite, he must stay on-island or he will die.
> 
> ...


That's why Ben and Widemore can't kill each other.


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## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

Can't recall if anybody pointed this out yet, but it was interesting that Locke should be Jeremy Bentham, and that they'll have to carry his body around awhile (they ALL must return to the island) given that the philosopher Jeremy Bentham willed that his body was to be preserved and is on display at the University College London. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> That's why Ben and Widemore can't kill each other.


Because Locke is dead off-island? 

Of course that's why they can't kill each other. I'm just saying that now Locke is so tied to the island that he can't leave without dying.

Greg


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

hefe said:


> Congrats to: audioscience, Blackssr, bpurcell, BriGuy20, carletondm, caslu, Cboath, Chapper1, conchita, Crobinzine, David Scavo, Delta13, dtle, flyersfan, getreal, hyde76, jehma, jerrad707, justen_m, kmcorbett, markb, MMG, mocha2, mqpickles, NoThru22, reliant76, RGB, Ruth, sbourgeo, scoot95, SocratesJohnson, SoldOnTiVo, SoldOnTivoToo, stacy143, stalemate, TomK, Tweety_pbe98, uncdrew and visionary for getting it right.


Wow - I actually got something right in a Lost thread! 

One thing about the polar bear winding up in Tunisia - I got the whole "opposite spot on the globe" theory. I just want someone to explain to me who trained the bear to crawl down the hole, climb down the ladder, and spin that wheel.

Not to mention who went down the Orchid elevator with it.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

ireland967 said:


> I'm not sure of everyone on the raft, but Desmond did have a large red mark across his forehead after he came to, similar to how he hit his head in previous times he's traveled to another consciousness. Although he did just wake up after crashing into the ocean, he had a very odd reaction on his face and didn't say a word to anyone, like he couldn't place where (or when) he was.


Actually, I meant the people on the other raft. They hadn't reached the island when it moved, but they disappeared with it. I was wondering if they were near the edge of the wormhole (or inside a closing wormhole, depending on how the island actually moved), which might have caused them to become unstuck in time.

Of course, the people on the ship were even further away, so I guess that would mean they would have gotten unstuck in time as well. On the other hand, the helicopter was on its way back to the island, so it was actually closer to the island than the ship (albeit higher in altitude), and it wasn't affected at all by the move.


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Okay I watched the ice cavern scene again and I now agree it's on the island. What threw me off is that despite Ben lighting a lantern, there is natural light in there. It looks like filtered sunlight, or the way sunlight looks at dusk. So either the cavern is glowing or a shaft extends up to the surface and is letting in light.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

A question for me is how far from the Island was the boat when it blew up? Is it not possible that the "bubble" around the Island when it moved was big enough to include the wreckage of the Boat and any bodies that were apparently killed?

If so, then Jin's body is still near the Island and can still be fixed.

One other though I have is regarding the voices.....maybe it is not the voices of someone watching the Island. Maybe instead it is the voices of anyone who has died that was connceted to the Island. Dunno.

This is one of the first few times where I cannot wait for Winter to come back. The wait until January will be so freakin long......


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

jlb said:


> A question for me is how far from the Island was the boat when it blew up? Is it not possible that the "bubble" around the Island when it moved was big enough to include the wreckage of the Boat and any bodies that were apparently killed?


When Frank and co was leaving the Island in the Helicopter the first time, they showed a shot of Frank's "nav map", written on a piece of yellow paper that showed he had to travel 305 degrees for 40 miles, then turn "east" for 7 K (I'm assuming kilometers).


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

I about had heart failure last night... We finally sat down to watch, and discovered that the tivo hadn't changed channels and we had two hours of "YOU DO NOT HAVE THIS CHANNEL. IF YOU WANT TO PURCHASE HBO, PLEASE CALL..." Come to find out, hubby had moved around the entertainment center and the channel-changing thingers were moved. So we downloaded on the xbox, phew!

That said, most everything I wanted to say has already been covered... but the one question I have is... So, Sawyer arrives back on the beach totally clueless that the freighter blew up? You mean he didn't hear it? I know it's Lost and not everything happens as we think it should  but that just hit me like Really? You couldn't hear that?



gschrock said:


> Hmm, so am I the only person that really thought it would have been perfect to end that episode right after the island disappeared from in front of them? Or am I just a sadistic bastard?


I wasn't watching the time (no commercials to FF through on the downloaded version so no tick marks) and I FOR SURE thought that was the end, so I was totally surprised when it came back.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jenhudson said:


> That said, most everything I wanted to say has already been covered... but the one question I have is... So, Sawyer arrives back on the beach totally clueless that the freighter blew up? You mean he didn't hear it? I know it's Lost and not everything happens as we think it should  but that just hit me like Really? You couldn't hear that?


Well, the freighter was up to 44 miles away. And obviously when Sawyer jumped they were still closer to the island than to the ship, or he would have swam to the ship instead of the island. So I'd say if you're in the water with 30-40 miles between you and the explosion there'd be an excellent chance that you wouldn't hear it.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

zync said:


> Not to mention... if the battery voltage dropped when frozen then why not simply disconnect it to achieve the same thing? If there was some sort of trigger that went off if the main battery was disconnected then the bomb would have gone off when the battery was frozen. Since the bomb did not go off, then the battery could have safely been disconnected.
> 
> Unless... the battery didn't go to zero and just happen to drop enough to prevent the bomb from exploding, but had enough voltage to keep the backup trigger from detecting a disconnected battery.
> 
> Or something like that.


When there is a pack of C4 with wires running to it, and anything you try to do with the circuits/timers/batteries/etc. will trigger the wires, can you not simply remove the wires? Sure, there was a lot of C4, but they had a little time.

I'm not an expert on things that go boom, but surely it should be safe enough to handle when you are pushing the wires in, why wouldn't it be just as safe to pull them out? Anyone know much about this stuff?


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, the freighter was up to 44 miles away. And obviously when Sawyer jumped they were still closer to the island than to the ship, or he would have swam to the ship instead of the island. So I'd say if you're in the water with 30-40 miles between you and the explosion there'd be an excellent chance that you wouldn't hear it.


Okay, makes sense. I wasn't thinking they were that far away. Since Juliet could see the smoke from there, I thought it would be closer.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

wprager said:


> I'm not an expert on things that go boom, but surely it should be safe enough to handle when you are pushing the wires in, why wouldn't it be just as safe to pull them out? Anyone know much about this stuff?


From post above...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4266333.html


Mythbuster Dude said:


> Also, I'm pretty sure that C4 isn't conductive, which it would need to be to set up its wiring as a resistance feedback loop that could tell if you started to pull out the detonators.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

gumbinator said:


> She blames two men for Jin's death:
> 1) Her father (she told him this to his face)
> 2) Ben (my guess)
> 
> So she's working with Widmore so that she can get at Ben. At least that what I think she's up to...


I think she said she blamed two people, not two men. Personally, I always thought that she blamed herself and her father. If it wasn't for her having an affair and running off to LA, Jin would not have been on that plane. But it's probably not what the writers are thinking.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

zync said:


> Oh another thought. The frozen wheel was in a cave that was accessed by blowing a hole in the transportation chamber. So we can assume that the wheel hasn't been accessed since the Dharma was built. So Ben had access to some information (location and function of the wheel, how to access, etc.) - perhaps something he got some Jacob at some point?
> 
> Clearly Ben had a lot of knowledge that did NOT transfer to John. I'm surprised since Ben knew he was out and John in, why did he not give John a brain dump of things that he really ought to know.


He mentioned that The Others will teach him. How The Others know, that's one of the new questions.

Time traveling bunnies 

Love Locke asked Ben if that was the magic box and he said "No". What wasn't said but was clearly implied in the look and tone: "For the last time, John, it was a metaphor!"

So, the Casimir effect can be used to create exotic matter (negative mass region) which is one of the key ingredients of a stable wormhole. Was the Frozen Donkey Wheel still on the Island (i.e. when Ben went through that tunnel, that *was* the wormhole) or did he get off the Island as a result of turning the wheel?

If the O6+1 all have to get back to the Island to "fix" things, then (as someone mentioned already) what about Walt? Or does he not count? And what about Lapidus, Faraday, Desmond -- where is the line, or is there even a line? A little loosely written, perhaps? No, there *must* be some rhyme or reason to who has to go back (or stay, as in Charlotte and Miles' case).

I don't have the transcript in front of me but I'm sure Jack, testifying at Kate's trial, said 8 initially survived, then 2 died. Now we have 3. More loose writing?

Sun obviously things that Jin is still alive, and she'll do anything to get back to the Island, including making a deal with the Devil.

If Jin was saved by Faraday in the Zodiac, then are they still on the Island (wherever or whenever it may be)? If not, then aren't they in the middle of nowhere?

When they were flying back to the Island it was all nice and sunny, all the way. When Sayid and Desmond were taken to the freighter it was a very rough ride, and Frank knew it was going to happen. Was he not using the correct bearing on the flight to the freighter?

The scene with Walt was obviously setting something up. Was it just getting Hurley to join the party or something more? Like someone mentioned, maybe Locke was passing the baton to Walt.

How did Locke get off the Island? And when? He looked very different in the coffin -- fat and old. Ans somewhere else I read that the scar over his eye was gone. Could be just the makeup, but I wonder if ti could be something else?

In that scene where Locke joins The Others as their new leader, anyone else get a Peter Pan and the Lost Boys vibe?

Overall, good episode but, frankly, I was expecting more.


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

wprager said:


> I don't have the transcript in front of me but I'm sure Jack, testifying at Kate's trial, said 8 initially survived, then 2 died. Now we have 3. More loose writing?


No, we have bad math on your part. Eight survived, three died ... and one was born. Even in the lie, Aaron wasn't born until after the crash.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Amnesia said:


> Me too. I think it's because the actor's first name is "Jeremy".
> We have no way of knowing how much time has passed on the island.


My wife kept asking throughout the show "Who's Jeremy"? And I kept replying, "Faraday, the physicist". "Huh? But his name's Daniel!"


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

ElJay said:


> The bomb made no sense from either side of the equation (move the mobile transmitter to a living body (smeek I know), shield the receiver from the signal [cut off the antenna], etc).


It would have been trivial for them to address these things: a real dead-man switch would be active, not passive, so it would always be transmitting and the _loss_ of signal would be what set off the bomb, for instance; and it's quite reasonable to assume you couldn't transfer the sensors between people in (literally) the space of a heartbeat. But adding in more explanatory dialogue about how the bomb worked would really just have dragged things down farther. They could have worded the explanations better, but it's more a writing thing than an actual plot hole.

Not sure I'm convinced that freezing the battery could do something that unclipping it wouldn't do, though. But even there, all we can say is that the writers aren't experts at bomb-making. It seems clear to me that it's possible to have a bomb setup that would serve the required plot necessities, and the worst we can say is the writers didn't nail that exactly.



TiVotion said:


> I recall several weeks ago during the LOST Podcast, it was revealed that the working code name for the season finale was "Frozen Donkey Wheel". Now it makes sense. The frozen wheel part I get...but donkey?


In villages where they don't have a river or stream to turn a mill to grind flour, they have a wheel to which they hitch beasts of burden and make them turn it. (Remember how Conan got big and strong turning a wheel like that?)



jeff125va said:


> I was wondering the same thing. I'm guessing it was just someone in the village. I doubt it's a big deal.


Didn't the PR person even say that the picture was taken by an onlooker from the village in the press conference?



DLiquid said:


> Harold was always bitter that his character was a stereotypical absent black father.


I must not watch the right shows. There's a stereotype about black fathers being absent? Why didn't anyone tell me? Seriously, I had no idea of this stereotype and part of me is wondering if it's real.



betts4 said:


> I loved how coldblooded Sayid was in this ep. His fight with Keamy was some of the best fight choreography of the series.


Heck, it was one of the best hand-to-hand fights on TV in years.



Amnesia said:


> You would think Sayid would be smart enough to give the guy an insurance shot to the head...


Good point. Good thing he didn't, though, considering the dead-man switch!



Tivortex said:


> This is the first time I've ever seen you be *completely* off base Rob.


I am not sure Rob's not pulling our leg.

If Widmore is the Economist, Ben should have hired Sun, not Sayid! She can apparently walk right up to him on the street and the bodyguards stay out of the way.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Paperboy2003 said:


> To me, John seemed like an uncomfortable leader. Perhaps he was trying to do too much and leaving the island was somehting he felt he had to do (to save the island). Once he left the island his life quickly fell apart and then Sayid killed him (although John killing himself off the island because he couldn't walk any longer also makes sense)


As fun as it would be for The Economist to be Jeremy "Locke" Bentham, I don't see why Ben Sayid would kill him. Sayid is working on Ben's orders, and Ben is killing Widmore's men, or members of some group determined to find/exploit the Island. Locke, on the other hand, was Ben's replacement as the Island's custodian.

Until, of course, we find out how Locke got off the Island and all that that entails.


----------



## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> Exactly. What did it add to their story to even say that there were 3 other survivors that died after the initial crash? Why not just say just the five of them survived and then later Kate gave birth on the island.
> .


i cant catch up with all these posts but can address this one... i recall at the newsconference someone asked how kate can have a kid when she would have had to be like 5 months preg while back in custody of the marshall...ensign ro immediately cut her off and said they had to go.

----------
so how do they justify being in such great shape even on that 2nd island they rafted to?


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

OK, I might have teared up a little bit when Penny and Desmond reunited.

I cannot wait until next year.

J


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> I am not sure Rob's not pulling our leg.


Well, I'm not, but my reasons have perhaps more to do with storytelling mechanics. So this will be my last word on the subject until January, when presumably we'll find out one way or the other.

Having him have to blow up a space-time traveling machine to get to the donkey wheel and not having it transport him through space and/or time is not firing Chekhov's gun. And having Ben transported from an ice chamber to the desert through a mechanism whereby presumably polar bears are transported both to the desert and to the island, without involving a polar region, is stretching coincidence far beyond what I would expect even with Lost.

So either the ice chamber is in a polar region, or it's bad writing. And it very well may be bad writing, even on a relatively minor point in the grand scheme of things, but in the absence of conclusive evidence I refuse to yield even such a small portion of faith in the Lost crew's writing skills.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

crowfan said:


> IIRC, the purpose of the original "hatch" was to cloak the island with some sort of electromagnetism. When it was destroyed, so was the cloak.


I don't think that's exactly how it worked. When Desmond pushed the fail-safe button there was an even which -- briefly -- exposed the location of the Island. After the event the Island resumed its "cloaking", but the incident was enough to get the freighter close-enough for Faraday to figure out how to get the rest of the way.

I still like my idea of a wormhole opening, at bearing 305, and that the Island is in some entirely different location/time/universe. But I have to admit that the recent events make me seriously doubt it.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> Very interesting. But in a practical sense, what good does that do Kate? A, it was in a dream, and B, it was backwards. If someone wanted her to know that the island needs her, they sure didn't communicate it very effectively. Plus, given what Claire said, she would have assumed that any message intended in the dream was NOT to go back.


Who says the "Bad Guys" can't take on different appearances as well? Someone mentioned she lost her accent -- maybe that was a clue?


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

It will be interesting next season to see the island move from the perspective of the people actually on it. Does it move to someplace in a different time zone? Does it go from day to night?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jenhudson said:


> So, Sawyer arrives back on the beach totally clueless that the freighter blew up? You mean he didn't hear it?


Sawyer was too busy trying to be sexy. Him getting out of the water was totally set up like a similar scene in S1, but Juliet was too emotional over the freighter to care.

Greg


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Moving the island seemed pretty involved. It's odd that Ben didn't share with John the particulars before going off to meet Keamy. In that situation, I can't imagine that he was THAT comfortable about being able to wiggle out of the situation. Heck, Locke couldn't even find the elevator!
> 
> That lapse bothered me...


He was pretty sure the Island would not let him be killed until his job was finished.


----------



## jpicard (Oct 26, 2004)

Soda cracker/saltines were not packed and wrapped in white plastic 15 years ago. They were packaged and wrapped in a brownish color of waxed paper.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jpicard said:


> Soda cracker/saltines were not packed and wrapped in white plastic 15 years ago. They were packaged and wrapped in a brownish color of waxed paper.


Even the Dharma project crackers?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jpicard said:


> Soda cracker/saltines were not packed and wrapped in white plastic 15 years ago. They were packaged and wrapped in a brownish color of waxed paper.


Well, the brand you bought anyway. I haven't seen the brownish colored wax paper since I was a kid, at least 25 years. It's like cereal, some brands use simple plastic, some use a foilish plastic, and others use the wax stuff.

Greg


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or maybe causing a deliberate malfunction in a machine designed to transport objects through space and time is the only way to transport oneself to the polar site of the donkey wheel..?
> 
> I still think there's almost no chance the ice chamber is on the island. Having it elsewhere makes too much else fall into place (especially the migrating polar bears that end up both at the island and in the desert, which would make sense if there's a third point involved in the transfer located in a polar region).


It would also explain why whoever pushed the wheel could not get back. The Island moved, he stayed. Now he has no way of getting back. Count me among those who think Ben was already off the Island when he pushed the wheel, except that until he pushed it and moved the Island, he could still get back.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ireland967 said:


> I'm not sure of everyone on the raft, but Desmond did have a large red mark across his forehead after he came to, similar to how he hit his head in previous times he's traveled to another consciousness. Although he did just wake up after crashing into the ocean, he had a very odd reaction on his face and didn't say a word to anyone, like he couldn't place where (or when) he was.


My initial reaction was that this is when the 2004 Desmond came back to his own timeline. Didn't a few people wonder, at the end of the time-traveling episode, if it was still the 1994 Desmond left on the Island?


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

MitchO said:


> No, we have bad math on your part. Eight survived, three died ... and one was born. Even in the lie, Aaron wasn't born until after the crash.


From the "Eggtown" transcript:



> JACK: Only *eight *of us survived the crash. We landed in the water. I was hurt, pretty badly. In fact, if it weren't for her, I would have never made it to the shore. She took care of me. She took care of all of us. She--she gave us first aid, water, found food, made shelter. She tried to save the other *two*, but they didn't--


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So either the ice chamber is in a polar region, or it's bad writing.


There is way too much unknown about the cavern he entered to make this kind of blanket statement. I can easily see it being either and have it make sense in the world of LOST.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So either the ice chamber is in a polar region, or it's bad writing.


Why is it bad writing? I thought it was obvious: the guy on the tape said there was some "power source" (not his words, but similar) nearby, Ben uses the machine to blow a hole in the wall (he might not have used any time-traveling effect, he might have known that there was some micro-wave effect that would blow a hole if he put metal in there) and get down to the source of this, which is freezing cold.

They even showed him climbing in and down.

They showed explicitly what he did - it's not bad writing just because you imagine he did something else. 

If anything, if he DID get transported elsewhere (and I'm not ruling that out... this is "Lost" after all ), THAT would be bad writing.


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

Can someone explain exactly WHY they had to lie?


----------



## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

ElJay said:


> A good episode until the last half hour or so went overboard with the tidy "that's all folks" thing with Penny's boat. The bomb made no sense from either side of the equation (move the mobile transmitter to a living body (smeek I know), shield the receiver from the signal [cut off the antenna], etc).


Locke had no way of knowing that Michael & Jin were stalling the bomb. As far as he knew, the dead-man's trigger set off the bomb as soon as Keamy died. What's the point of swapping it then?



ElJay said:


> Didn't the producers say at one point that everything happening had some sort of scientific explanation?


Say it with me, "Science fiction."



ElJay said:


> Moving islands and magical RF transmitters that work deep underground kind of lack that basis, to say the least.


Moving islands? What moving islands?

I cannot believe no one has mentioned this yet. Minute 23: Locke is telling Jack that he's going to have to lie to protect [the island]:

Jack: "It's an _island_, John. No one _needs _to protect it."
Locke: "It's not an island...it's a place where miracles happen.

He doesn't say it's not _just _an island. He says it's not an island.

Whatever it is, the transport mechanism is near the bottom and is only accessible via a tunnel to the donkey wheel (which appears to be of the same vintage as the Black Rock) and by submarine.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

crowfan said:


> Can someone explain exactly WHY they had to lie?


To keep [more] people from searching for the island


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

How does the lie accomplish that though? Why not just melt into society?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

crowfan said:


> Can someone explain exactly WHY they had to lie?


Who would believe them?

"Yeah, um ... we escaped from this really weird island with polar bears and a smoke monster. Yes, I said smoke monster. Then we were trying to go back and the island disappeared before our eyes. Why are you looking at me like that?"


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

crowfan said:


> How does the lie accomplish that though? Why not just melt into society?


Because (aside from Kate's legal troubles) they wanted their lives back. So people were going to notice when the suddenly showed back up. And if they told people that there are more survivors out there, someone will start looking for them.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

wprager said:


> I think she said she blamed two people, not two men. Personally, I always thought that she blamed herself and her father. If it wasn't for her having an affair and running off to LA, Jin would not have been on that plane. But it's probably not what the writers are thinking.


Sun didn't "just run off to LA".
Daddy Paik sent Jin on a kiss up mission to "friends" of his in LA.
Sun was going to use the opportunity to leave Jin while in LA.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> Who would believe them?
> 
> "Yeah, um ... we escaped from this really weird island with polar bears and a smoke monster. Yes, I said smoke monster. Then we were trying to go back and the island disappeared before our eyes. Why are you looking at me like that?"


But ti seemed like the lie was a PLAN. Like it was supposed to accomplish something. It wasn't just a "plausible story" IMO.

I get that others might looks for them, but I was thinking the lie was to somehow protect the people from Widmore. Presumably Widmore knows everything that has been going on, since I'm sure his people have been relaying info back to him.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

As Jack said, the lie was partially to protect themselves from the people who went through the trouble and expense to stage a fake plane crash at the bottom of the ocean.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

aintnosin said:


> When they meet, there had been enough time for Sayid and Nadia to get married, Nadia to die and for Sayid to set out looking for revenge. I think according to the episode there had been about a year between the rescue and Sayid going to work for Ben.


Actually, Sayid wasn't looking for revenge when Ben met up with him. Sayid thought Nadia was killed in a hit-and-run. Ben arrived just after she died and told Sayid that Widmore had ordered it done, then recruited him to destroy Widmore.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> As Jack said, the lie was partially to protect themselves from the people who went through the trouble and expense to stage a fake plane crash at the bottom of the ocean.


Yeah, that part I get. But how does the lie protect the people on the island from Widmore? He already knows what's going on on the island.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> A couple things before I rewatch... All this talk about going back. Are we to assume that Ben knows where the island is? Or will they be led by dead people? I don't see how anyone else could know.


Ben told Jack that he "had a few ideas" about how to get back to the island. I'll bet Ben never goes back, though: the writers seem to be pretty good about keeping promises like that.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

JYoung said:


> Sun didn't "just run off to LA".
> Daddy Paik sent Jin on a kiss up mission to "friends" of his in LA.
> Sun was going to use the opportunity to leave Jin while in LA.


I sit corrected. Widmore would, then, be the logical choice. Blaming it all on Jack is really a stretch. OK, so maybe he'd make the top-10 or even top-5, but not one of just two people in the world.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Why is it bad writing? I thought it was obvious: the guy on the tape said there was some "power source" (not his words, but similar) nearby, Ben uses the machine to blow a hole in the wall (he might not have used any time-traveling effect, he might have known that there was some micro-wave effect that would blow a hole if he put metal in there) and get down to the source of this, which is freezing cold.
> 
> They even showed him climbing in and down.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. I'm just not seeing the confusion in whether it happened on or off the Island. I don't think it could have been made any more clear.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

so what's the list of people who officially made it back and were on the news vs people who made it back and were in hiding

after seeing walt it made me realize i forgot that others may have made it back.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

jenhudson said:


> Okay, makes sense. I wasn't thinking they were that far away. Since Juliet could see the smoke from there, I thought it would be closer.


Actually, it was closer. When Faraday returned to the island with the Zodiac, he told Juliet that they had fixed the engines and were going to move the ship as close to the island as they could (reefs). A few scenes later, when he was saying bye to Juliet, you could see the ship from the beach. It was sitting not even a thousand yards out from shore.

Still, being tossed around and trying to swim in the ocean surf... that' a noisy thing to do. All you you hear is water. When water wasn't in your ears.


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## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Ben told Jack that he "had a few ideas" about how to get back to the island. I'll bet Ben never goes back, though: the writers seem to be pretty good about keeping promises like that.


When Ben said he 'had a few ideas', that was in answer to Jack's question about how to get the others back to the island when they're not willing. During that conversation, there was no mention made of the island having moved.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Martin Tupper said:


> Whatever it is, the transport mechanism is near the bottom and is only accessible via a tunnel to the donkey wheel (which appears to be of the same vintage as the Black Rock) and by submarine.


So it's an alien spacecraft?

I don't get the point of the lie about the extra 3 people. Why not just say 5 people were all that survived the crash? If you were going to say someone survived for a while, why not Jin so that the timing of Sun's pregnancy would be ok?

Besides the 6 we have Ben, Desmond, Lapidus, Locke, Walt, and Sun's baby (?) off the island. Anyone else? Plus we've seen lots of ghosts. I guess they'll get back on their own. Funny that we've seen lots of Losties after their death, but I don't remember seeing any dead "others" running around. No Tom or Goodwin.

I assumed that Ben rattling off the instructions for moving the island to Locke was just to put him in his place. Since Keamy wouldn't or couldn't kill Ben, no way he was going to get him off the island. Yeah Locke, you're the big guy now, you move the island.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Tivortex said:


> This is the first time I've ever seen you be *completely* off base Rob.
> Ben blew out the backside of the enclosure to gain access to a tunnel that took him to the donkey wheel, where as a side effect of the (whatever it is in there) the temperature was freezing.


You don't know that. It could just as easily be that as he broke through the ice, he moved from the island to the arctic and then was deposited in the desert as an effect of moving the island.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> You don't know that. It could just as easily be that as he broke through the ice, he moved from the island to the arctic and then was deposited in the desert as an effect of moving the island.


Yeah, but he could just as easily been transported to Pluto then was deposited into the desert.

I think the point is that there's no real "evidence" that he was transported somewhere else and it looked pretty clear that he was simply climbing down to the lever. Sure what Rob says is possible, but it's just a theory from whole cloth. Nothing that happened in the episode suggests that it actually happened that way.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Yeah, but he could just as easily been transported to Pluto then was deposited into the desert.
> 
> I think the point is that there's no real "evidence" that he was transported somewhere else and it looked pretty clear that he was simply climbing down to the lever. Sure what Rob says is possible, but it's just a theory from whole cloth. Nothing that happened in the episode suggests that it actually happened that way.


But what I am saying is there is nothing to suggest he stayed on the island either. We have no way of knowing at this point so disparaging theories that don't agree with your own is pointless and a bit condescending.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> But what I am saying is there is nothing to suggest he stayed on the island either.


Sure there is. By default I'm going to assume that a person doesn't transport to another location simply because she/he goes from one room to another.

It fairly clearly showed him climbing down a ladder from one room into another room. Every indication is that he never left the island. Would you assume that every time someone climbed down the hatch in season 2 they were transported off the island to another location?

What's different here?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Sure there is. By default I'm going to assume that a person doesn't transport to another location simply because she/he goes from one room to another.
> 
> It fairly clearly showed him climbing down a ladder from one room into another room. Every indication is that he never left the island. Would you assume that every time someone climbed down the hatch in season 2 they were transported off the island to another location?
> 
> What's different here?


He broke through the ice THEN slid into a different room. (I don't remember anyone breaking through ice in the hatch ). The ice could be the gate between the two time/places.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

When he was transferred to the Sahara there seemed to be a special effects "whoosh." When the Island was moved, thre was a special effect "whoosh."

Here, he just walked through a hole and climbed (fell?) down the ladder.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

There may not have been any evidence, but consider this. Ben was pretty clear that, once he had moved the Island, he would not be able to get back to it. That would mean that either the Island moved and he didn't, or both the Island and Ben moved, but in different directions. I find the second one nearly impossible to explain using any pseudo-scientific explanations.

Anyone have any theories about the tape player rewinding on Locke? Just as Halliwax gets to the good part you hear "click" and then the tape rewinds. As if someone pressed the rewind button. What if someone did? And then why couldn't Locke stop/restart it? Was that just another instance of the Island not letting something happen?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bryanmc said:


> What's different here?


Chekhov's Gun.

"If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."

This is a well-known writer's principle. I doubt very much that the writers of Lost would show us a space/time traveling machine, and then not use it. If it was just to open a hole in the wall, there were dozens of ways they could have accomplished that without using a space/time traveling machine. I have to believe that using the space-time traveling machine instead of any other method has significance, especially since the machine is now toast and thus we have probably seen its storytelling purpose.

Or, that it's bad writing.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

wprager said:


> ......Anyone have any theories about the tape player rewinding on Locke? Just as Halliwax gets to the good part you hear "click" and then the tape rewinds. As if someone pressed the rewind button. What if someone did? And then why couldn't Locke stop/restart it? Was that just another instance of the Island not letting something happen?


That almost sounds like in "Ghost", when Patrick Swayze had "died" but not yet "moved on", he learned how he could make objects move and even make some sounds.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> When he was transferred to the Sahara there seemed to be a special effects "whoosh." When the Island was moved, thre was a special effect "whoosh."
> 
> Here, he just walked through a hole and climbed (fell?) down the ladder.


And how would you imagine going through a wormhole to look/feel/sound? Yes, I *am* only half serious.

When they first showed the ice "hole" it looked like it was at the bottom of where he was climbing, and thereby at the top of the chamber he eventually fell into. However as he climbs in, it is evident that the chamber continues much higher above the ice hole. How is that possible?

I could imagine the chamber having a domed top, and the hole being on the side -- not vertical and not horizontal. But that's not how it appeared from inside. Now, this is a stretch, but could the direction of the gravitational pull have changed between when Ben started climbing the ladder and when he landed on the floor of the donkey wheel chamber?

I'm going to have to rewatch to see what the relative positioning of the chamber, ice hole, ladder, tunnel, etc.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Maybe its a smeek here or not, but I was perusing lostpedia and they are postulating that Widmore used to be on the Island and was the last person to move it before Ben. 

Go back to the scene in London with Widmore and Ben and Widmore said something like "you stole the Island from me", or something to that effect. I think Ben somehow forced Widmore to move it. And then this all sort of fits....Widmore's huge efforts to get back to the Island.

Dunno


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

wprager said:


> It would also explain why whoever pushed the wheel could not get back. The Island moved, he stayed. Now he has no way of getting back. Count me among those who think Ben was already off the Island when he pushed the wheel, except that until he pushed it and moved the Island, he could still get back.


I just find it hard to believe that this is how someone moves the island:

1. Build a Dharma spacetime teleportaion device (or something similar).
2. Blow it up, opening a portal to the wheel room.
3. Turn the wheel, which completely disconnects the wheel room from the island.

Those steps would seem to be more of a one-time operation, and I got the impression that the island had been moved more than once, perhaps (I would even say likely) before Dharma got there. Dharma built their station near the exotic matter to harness its power, but I don't think it was Dharma that gave the island the ability to move.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Chekhov's Gun.
> 
> "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
> 
> ...


Dude, Lost is *all about* showing us stuff that seem to have no significance (or at least we don't understand the significance) for many episodes or even seasons! In fact, it'd be the exception for us to see something and then have that thing utilized right away.

Generally we're introduced to something then don't see or understand anything more about it for an incredibly long time.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> 3. Turn the wheel, which completely disconnects the wheel room from the island.


Why would you assume this? The wheel and room didn't travel with Ben to the desert. The wheel room stayed with the island (or on Pluto if you're Rob ) but it didn't "disconnect" from it. It's either still attached or the portal to Pluto is still there.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> When he was transferred to the Sahara there seemed to be a special effects "whoosh." When the Island was moved, thre was a special effect "whoosh."
> 
> Here, he just walked through a hole and climbed (fell?) down the ladder.


There was no woosh sound when Ben "landed" in the desert. He opened his eyes and he was there. On his back. As if he fell from somewhere...


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> There was no woosh sound when Ben "landed" in the desert. He opened his eyes and he was there. On his back. As if he fell from somewhere...


Like Pluto?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Like Pluto?


Since there are no Polar Bears on Pluto, the Arctic seems more likely...

Someone said it earlier. The polar bears wound up in the desert. If this is the way they came, how? You couldn't put them in that elevator. You couldn't toss them into the hole where the donkey wheel was. Yet they did wind up in the desert exactly where Ben did. How?


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Since there are no Polar Bears on Pluto, the Arctic seems more likely...


How does he fall from the Arctic to the desert?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> How does he fall from the Arctic to the desert?


He moved the island. He landed in the desert.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> He moved the island. He landed in the desert.


Yeah, but didn't you say he "fell" rather than transported since there was no sound? Maybe I need to go back and re-read it.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Chekhov's Gun.
> 
> "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
> 
> This is a well-known writer's principle. I doubt very much that the writers of Lost would show us a space/time traveling machine, and then not use it.


There's also the principle of the "red herring". We see the Orchid station and the spacetime traveling machine, and assume that Ben is going to use that to move the island. But then we see Ben be very dismissive about the purpose of the Orchid station when he talks about the researchers doing whatever experiments those people do. And then, as he is loading the device with metal objects, we see in the video that that is something one should not do.

I think the purpose of all of that was to show us that Ben didn't really care about the Orchid station itself, only about getting through the Orchid station to the wheel that moved the island. I think it is far more likely that Dharma was simply harnessing the same forces that allowed the island to move for their own experiments than that their device was somehow tied to the island's ability to move.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Yeah, but didn't you say he "fell" rather than transported since there was no sound? Maybe I need to go back and re-read it.


I'm presuming you don't dispute he moved somehow from the donkey wheel room to the desert. He landed in the desert the same way he landed in the desert if the donkey wheel was connected to the island. Moving the donkey wheel from the island to the arctic doesn't change how he wound up in the desert.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I'm presuming you don't dispute he moved somehow from the donkey wheel room to the desert. He landed in the desert the same way he landed in the desert if the donkey wheel was connected to the island. Moving the donkey wheel from the island to the arctic doesn't change how he wound up in the desert.


Of course he moved, I just got hung up on you saying that he "fell" to the desert. I didn't (and still don't) understand the significance of that.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Bryanmc said:


> Why would you assume this? The wheel and room didn't travel with Ben to the desert. The wheel room stayed with the island (or on Pluto if you're Rob ) but it didn't "disconnect" from it. It's either still attached or the portal to Pluto is still there.


I don't think that's what happened. I was responding to the idea that Ben had already left island when he entered the wheel room, and that turning the wheel closed the connection between the island and the room, which is what prevented Ben from going back.

If that was the case, it would seem that the island could only be moved once. I think it is more likely that the wheel is part of the island, and that whoever is inside the room when it is turned gets teleported somewhere else. This allows the island to be moved more than once, but kicks people off of it who turn the wheel.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> I don't think that's what happened. I was responding to the idea that Ben had already left island when he entered the wheel room, and that turning the wheel closed the connection between the island and the room, which is what prevented Ben from going back.
> 
> If that was the case, it would seem that the island could only be moved once. I think it is more likely that the wheel is part of the island, and that whoever is inside the room when it is turned gets teleported somewhere else. This allows the island to be moved more than once, but kicks people off of it who turn the wheel.


Ah, gotcha. But even if the wheel room wasn't part of the island there's no reason to assume that turning the wheel closed the connection to the island.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Of course he moved, I just got hung up on you saying that he "fell" to the desert. I didn't (and still don't) understand the significance of that.


I just find it interesting that he fell flat on his back getting to the donkey wheel and was in the exact same position when he "fell" to the desert. We didn't see him fall but he looked the same.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> I don't think that's what happened. I was responding to the idea that Ben had already left island when he entered the wheel room, and that turning the wheel closed the connection between the island and the room, which is what prevented Ben from going back.
> 
> If that was the case, it would seem that the island could only be moved once. I think it is more likely that the wheel is part of the island, and that whoever is inside the room when it is turned gets teleported somewhere else. This allows the island to be moved more than once, but kicks people off of it who turn the wheel.


That doesn't necessarily mean the donkey wheel is on the island. It could be in a different, stationary place and moves the island from there. So it always stays in the same place, even when the island moves.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I just find it interesting that he fell flat on his back getting to the donkey wheel and was in the exact same position when he "fell" to the desert. We didn't see him fall but he looked the same.


I still don't see the significance. Yes, I'm slow.

So either he transported to the desert on his back or he transported and appeared 10 feet in the air and fell to the ground, what does it matter?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Bryanmc said:


> Ah, gotcha. But even if the wheel room wasn't part of the island there's no reason to assume that turning the wheel closed the connection to the island.


The only reason you would have to assume that is if you didn't think Ben was automatically teleported elsewhere after turning the wheel. Because if he wasn't, and the wheel room was still connected to the island, he could have gone back to the island.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> The only reason you would have to assume that is if you didn't think Ben was automatically teleported elsewhere after turning the wheel. Because if he wasn't, and the wheel room was still connected to the island, he could have gone back to the island.


I don't think anyone questions that, wherever the wheel room is, he was transported to the desert when he turned the wheel.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> I still don't see the significance. Yes, I'm slow.
> 
> So either he transported to the desert on his back or he transported and appeared 10 feet in the air and fell to the ground, what does it matter?


I am proposing that when he "fell" into the donkey wheel room, he fell into a different, cold place. Probably the arctic. He also "fell" on his back in the exact same way in the sahara. If he moved from the donkey wheel room to the desert one time, he could very well have moved from the island to the arctic when he fell into the donkey wheel room.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Bryanmc said:


> I don't think anyone questions that, wherever the wheel room is, he was transported to the desert when he turned the wheel.


I was responding to this theory:



wprager said:


> It would also explain why whoever pushed the wheel could not get back. The Island moved, he stayed. Now he has no way of getting back. Count me among those who think Ben was already off the Island when he pushed the wheel, except that until he pushed it and moved the Island, he could still get back.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

mattpol said:


> Wow. Just wow.


I finally just saw it.

Wow indeed.

He moved the island.

... and died.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I am proposing that when he "fell" into the donkey wheel room, he fell into a different, cold place. Probably the arctic. He also "fell" on his back in the exact same way in the sahara. If he moved from the donkey wheel room to the desert one time, he could very well have moved from the island to the arctic when he fell into the donkey wheel room.


Yeah, but he fell into the wheel room because the ladder broke. That much was petty darned clear, it was even how he got his injury. Had the ladder not broken he would have stepped gently into the room (which we can presume that's how everyone that's been in that room before did it since the ladder was in tact when Ben started) so there would be no correlation to how he appeared in the desert.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Yeah, but he fell into the wheel room because the ladder broke. That much was petty darned clear, it was even how he got his injury. Had the ladder not broken he would have stepped gently into the room (which we can presume everyone that's been in that room before did it since the ladder was in tact when Ben started) so there would be no correlation to how he appeared in the desert.


We didn't see him go from the wheel room to the desert. For all we know, he had to jump down from a high area to get there.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> We didn't see him go from the wheel room to the desert. For all we know, he had to jump down from a high area to get there.


But what's the significance of that? What does it matter if he had to jump into a hole or if he got transported right away?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> But what's the significance of that? What does it matter if he had to jump into a hole or if he got transported right away?


I'm just pointing out the similarities. You are acting like it isn't possible that the donkey wheel was in a different place than the island. We know he landed flat on his back moving from the room to the desert. The fact that he also landed flat on his back getting into the room could indicate he moved from one place to another.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I'm just pointing out the similarities. You are acting like it isn't possible that the donkey wheel was in a different place than the island. We know he landed flat on his back moving from the room to the desert. The fact that he also landed flat on his back getting into the room could indicate he moved from one place to another.


He landed on his back getting in the wheel room because the ladder broke. I've done that before without transporting to another location.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> That doesn't necessarily mean the donkey wheel is on the island. It could be in a different, stationary place and moves the island from there. So it always stays in the same place, even when the island moves.


But Dharma was harnessing a pocket of exotic matter, the same matter that we saw coming out when the wheel was turned. (I suppose that I'm assuming something here, but I don't think it is likely to have been anything else.)

Now, it is possible that the wheel room was connected via a wormhole to the island and the matter was seeping through the wormhole to the island, allowing it to be harnessed from there. But I would have thought Dharma would have built something on the wheel side to get direct access.

And even if that were true, that would mean the wormhole would have already needed to be opened between the wheel room and the island, and blowing up the device harnessing its power would seem to me to have caused it to close rather than open it up.

Ben didn't seem to care exactly how the explosion was going to take place. He just threw a bunch of metal in the device and turned it on. That seems to me to mean he just wanted some kind of hole to be created as opposed to directing an explosion to increase the size of a wormhole. Granted, it's not out of the realm of Lost possibility to have a random explosion open up a wormhole in a controlled fashion, but I don't think that's where they were going in this case.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Bryanmc said:


> He landed on his back getting in the wheel room because the ladder broke. I've done that before without transporting to another location.


Well, technically speaking, you were transported to the ground.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> He landed on his back getting in the wheel room because the ladder broke. I've done that before without transporting to another location.


Quit pretending to be dense. As I said, we didn't see him get from the wheel room to the desert. Both could involve going from a high place to a low place. Therefore, you can wind up on your back going from one to the other. Maybe there is no ladder getting from the wheel room to the desert. Maybe it has a ladder that breaks, too. Who knows. But there is nothing we have seen that precludes him going to a different place when he goes from the tunnel to the wheel room.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Quit pretending to be dense. As I said, we didn't see him get from the wheel room to the desert. Both could involve going from a high place to a low place. Therefore, you can wind up on your back going from one to the other. Maybe there is no ladder getting from the wheel room to the desert. Maybe it has a ladder that breaks, too. Who knows. But there is nothing we have seen that precludes him going to a different place when he goes from the tunnel to the wheel room.


I'm not trying to be dense, honestly. I just don't see the connection between Ben falling on a broken ladder to transporting from the wheel room.

Even if both involve going from a high place to a low place I see no reason why it would indicate that he transported into the wheel room just because he was on his back at one point in both locations, when one of those times was clearly an accident.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> But Dharma was harnessing a pocket of exotic matter, the same matter that we saw coming out when the wheel was turned. (I suppose that I'm assuming something here, but I don't think it is likely to have been anything else.)
> 
> Now, it is possible that the wheel room was connected via a wormhole to the island and the matter was seeping through the wormhole to the island, allowing it to be harnessed from there. But I would have thought Dharma would have built something on the wheel side to get direct access.
> 
> ...


The island is connected to the wheel room, the wheel room is connected to the desert. There would be energy at all ends of the connection, including the energy Dharma harnessed. Otherwise, there could be no connection. That doesn't mean they all need to be in the same place.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> I'm not trying to be dense, honestly. I just don't see the connection between Ben falling on a broken ladder to transporting from the wheel room.
> 
> Even if both involve going from a high place to a low place I see no reason why it would indicate that he transported into the wheel room just because he was on his back at one point in both locations, when one of those times was clearly an accident.


It doesn't mean that he didn't transport either. The one time we KNOW he did transport, he did wind up on his back with his wind knocked out of him. Why couldn't he have transported the other time, too that he wound up on his back with his wind knocked out?


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> It doesn't mean that he didn't transport either. The one time we KNOW he did transport, he did wind up on his back with his wind knocked out of him. Why couldn't he have transported the other time, too?


He absolutely could have! But I don't think the fact that the ladder broke is any kind of evidence to that possibility.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> He absolutely could have! But I don't think the fact that the ladder broke is any kind of evidence to that possibility.


I never said it was. I never said anything about a broken ladder. I just said he fell and was flat on his back in the wheel room and in the desert and I found that interesting because he looked so similar. You have been asserting all along that he couldn't have moved from the island when he went to the wheel room. I am saying that we don't know that.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

A couple of thoughts since I rewatched it---Locke told Jack to stay away from Aaron. We still don't know the reason behind that, do we? It seemed like Kate blamed him for Jack's leaving and that's why she wouldn't be caught dead at his funeral. Then he told him that they have to go back, which would put him in contact with Aaron again. 

Sun's mother had her baby when she saw Widmore in London, so they must still be on speaking terms. I can't imagine her father working with her to run the company. This must have been one of the later flashes since the baby is saying Mama. I think this is part of the final plot against Widmore. Hard to imagine them all working with Ben. I wonder if Sun knows that Ben essentially blew up the freighter himself? Only "Jeremy Bentham" could have told them that.

Jack told Desmond to stay hidden--that must have been hard unless Penny is completely estranged from her father at this point. Still, he probably has her followed just to see what she's found out about the island.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I never said it was. I never said anything about a broken ladder. I just said he fell and was flat on his back in the wheel room and in the desert and I found that interesting because he looked so similar. You have been asserting all along that he couldn't have moved from the island when he went to the wheel room. I am saying that we don't know that.


I never said that he couldn't have moved from the island when he went to the wheel room.  I said there's no evidence at all that indicates this happened, but of course it's a possibility.

You provided the fact that he was on his back in both situations as a possible clue that he transported. I'm saying that doesn't make sense because the reason he was on his back in the wheel room is because the ladder broke. One would assume that he could still transport into the wheel room even if he'd stepped gently off the ladder instead of falling down a broken one.


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## TiVotion (Dec 6, 2002)

Watching you guys discussing this, I started to think, maybe he fell into once place, and went back up through the hole, and ended up in another.

Then it occured to me that perhaps the whole reason we see the ladder break is because that is the mechanism for telling us that he's not going to be going back up that ladder. I don't recall how many rungs broke, so I don't recall if the ladder is totally kaput or not

So wherever Ben is, we assume he can't get back to the wheel room, and thus he can't get back to the ice hole/Orchid/island?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> I never said that he couldn't have moved from the island when he went to the wheel room.  I said there's no evidence at all that indicates this happened, but of course it's a possibility.
> 
> You provided the fact that he was on his back in both situations as a possible clue that he transported. I'm saying that doesn't make sense because the reason he was on his back in the wheel room is because the ladder broke. One would assume that he could still transport into the wheel room even if he'd stepped gently off the ladder instead of falling down a broken one.


From now on, when someone enters the wheel room, they are going to have to jump and will probably wind up on the ground. The desert connection could be the same way. The writers might have shown him on his back both times to indicate to the viewers that he DID change places both times.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> The island is connected to the wheel room, the wheel room is connected to the desert. There would be energy at all ends of the connection, including the energy Dharma harnessed. Otherwise, there could be no connection. That doesn't mean they all need to be in the same place.


Right, but my point was that even in that case blowing up the Dharma device was still simply to create a hole in order to get past the device to the wormhole that led to the wheel room. So if there was a wormhole connecting the island to the wheel room, the Dharma device didn't create it, but was simply harnessing its power. So it is possible that there was a wormhole, but I don't think Ben blowing up the Dharma device is any indication that there was one.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Right, but my point was that even in that case blowing up the Dharma device was still simply to create a hole in order to get past the device to the wormhole that led to the wheel room. So if there was a wormhole connecting the island to the wheel room, the Dharma device didn't create it, but was simply harnessing its power. So it is possible that there was a wormhole, but I don't think Ben blowing up the Dharma device is any indication that there was one.


I don't understand your point. Dharma was harnassing something that was already there. He blew up the time/space thing because he needed to get to the wheel room. Whether the wheel room was on the island or merely connected to it doesn't change that.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

aindik said:


> Hurley knew Michael was dead but didn't tell Walt. Paraphrasing:
> Walt: Why are you all lying?
> Hurley: To protect the people that are still there.
> Walt: Like my dad?
> ...


I disagree with most people here on this statement. I don't think Hurley is saying that they are lying to protect the people left behind, including Walt's dad. I think he is saying, they are lying like Michael had to when he was in the normal world. Remember, Michael had to lie when he was back in the real world.

I don't think Walt expects to see his Dad again.

And I don't think Ben was transported until AFTER the wheel was turned. Nothing was stated in the show to indicate anything else. Deep in the hole, the exotic matter made it cold. He then ended up transporting all the way to the desert where the sand people found him. That was the direct next event after turning the wheel for him.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

Jeeters said:


> Actually, it was closer. When Faraday returned to the island with the Zodiac, he told Juliet that they had fixed the engines and were going to move the ship as close to the island as they could (reefs). A few scenes later, when he was saying bye to Juliet, you could see the ship from the beach. It was sitting not even a thousand yards out from shore.
> 
> Still, being tossed around and trying to swim in the ocean surf... that' a noisy thing to do. All you you hear is water. When water wasn't in your ears.


They were around 5 miles out, that's how close the (new) captain was willing to get to the island w/out running aground.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Chekhov's Gun.
> 
> "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
> 
> ...


If you're going with that analogy, then they used the bullets, but not the gun, which is just as good (if not better). Or, if you prefer, they hit someone with the gun instead of firing it. Chekhov's gun is a "good idea" not a rule. The whole point of the Orchid station was to explain that there was some temporal/spacial "thing" going on and they were harnessing it...Ben just bypassed that and went for the manual override.



BeanMeScot said:


> Quit pretending to be dense. As I said, we didn't see him get from the wheel room to the desert. Both could involve going from a high place to a low place. Therefore, you can wind up on your back going from one to the other. Maybe there is no ladder getting from the wheel room to the desert. Maybe it has a ladder that breaks, too. Who knows. But there is nothing we have seen that precludes him going to a different place when he goes from the tunnel to the wheel room.


My problem with this whole "Ben fell into the desert" thing is that we never saw him fall. We saw him on his back, if he transported standing up but it knocked him out he'd still be lying down. He didn't necessarily fall at all. In fact I'd be surprised if he did.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Ok, I just rewatched the scene where Ben goes into the room to turn the wheel. It looks VERY much like it's all in the same place. There are a number of shots where you can see from the ice room up into the cave where Ben came from and from the cave down into the ice room. They're very connected and seems very clear that it's just down deep in the island.

As I've said before, and this reviewing just hammers it home for me, there's ZERO evidence that it's a different location and plenty of evidence that it's part of the island.


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## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the ice room is in a polar region, and the point of overloading the time travel machine was to open a portal to the ice room. So first he was transported to the polar ice room by the bunny machine, and then he was transported to the desert by the donkey wheel (with possible collateral polar bear transportage).


Could be smeeking but I don't think Ben left the island when he went down. During the video the Dr. said that the chamber was built adjacent to a pocket of what they believe to be negatively charged exotic matter.

J


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

jwjody said:


> Could be smeeking but I don't think Ben left the island when he went down. During the video the Dr. said that the chamber was built adjacent to a pocket of what they believe to be negatively charged exotic matter.
> 
> J


Which everyone knows is *really* cold.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> He moved the island.
> ... and died.


When we first saw Ben at the end (when he spooked Jack in the funeral parlor), take a close look at him. His skin is pasty white, he has the pallor of the embalmed, he looks dead. I know we've seen Ben in a few off-the-island-in-the-flashforwards scenes, but he looks different in the funeral parlor scene.

My guess on the wheel: The room with the wheel is definitely part of the island. It has to be a part of the island or it couldn't move with it. And they've done nothing to make us believe this move is the one & only move the island has, or will ever have. So the donkey wheel room moves with the island.

But just as Desmond was thrown a distance when the hatch imploded, whoever turns the wheel and unleashes that force will be thrown. A long, long way, thru space & possibly time. And the reason they can't come back to the island is because the island has moved, and that person doesn't know where it is any more.

This to me is the Occam's Razor solution.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Maybe the island's original location, prior to any moves through history, was in a polar region. This little cave is a remnant of this original location. The polar bears were on the island because they moved with the island from the polar region. Over time, the polar-esque island became tropical, due to it's new location. Maybe?? 

I look forward to the next 2 seasons, and once those are over, I REALLY can't wait to watch everything from the very beginning of the 1st season.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Okay, posting only after reading 7 pages (50ppp here ), so there may be smeek.


TIVOSciolist said:


> Interesting idea. According to imdb.com, actor Terry O'Quinn is actually 6' 1-1/2" tall so the coffin should be pretty big. Maybe it's an optical illusion that makes it look smaller on TV?


Or the coffin actually is smaller with a false bottom or the actor tucking his legs under.


Big_Daddy said:


> And for everyone who's trying to figure out why the Island is appearing as Christian Shephard - it's easy, Jacob is the alien from Contact.


...interesting reference. I actually liked that movie.


gschrock said:


> Hmm, so am I the only person that really thought it would have been perfect to end that episode right after the island disappeared from in front of them? Or am I just a sadistic bastard?


Agree that it would've been the perfect place to end the episode because THAT would have pissed me off. A "WTF" and a "You've got to be kidding me" at the same time. 


unicorngoddess said:


> So I'm just watching this again...I'm just wondering, why did the Orientation Tape go into rewind and Locke couldn't get it to stop. I wanted to see the rest of the Orientation tape.


So did I. The whole time I was thinking 'how are they going to have the tape screw up?'. Then, instead they made the tape machine screw up. As to why? That should be obvious. 



smak said:


> Never thought that. The whole helicopter ride, I was wondering how they were going to get rid of the pilot and Desmond. Any time before we saw Penny I thought anything could happen to them.
> 
> Once we saw Penny, I knew that she would "hide" Despond & the pilot from being found.
> 
> ...


In a flash forward it was mentioned that more than just the 06 got off the island.


Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or maybe causing a deliberate malfunction in a machine designed to transport objects through space and time is the only way to transport oneself to the polar site of the donkey wheel..?
> 
> I still think there's almost no chance the ice chamber is on the island. Having it elsewhere makes too much else fall into place (especially the migrating polar bears that end up both at the island and in the desert, which would make sense if there's a third point involved in the transfer located in a polar region).





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, I'm not, but my reasons have perhaps more to do with storytelling mechanics. So this will be my last word on the subject until January, when presumably we'll find out one way or the other.
> 
> Having him have to blow up a space-time traveling machine to get to the donkey wheel and not having it transport him through space and/or time is not firing Chekhov's gun. And having Ben transported from an ice chamber to the desert through a mechanism whereby presumably polar bears are transported both to the desert and to the island, without involving a polar region, is stretching coincidence far beyond what I would expect even with Lost.
> 
> So either the ice chamber is in a polar region, or it's bad writing. And it very well may be bad writing, even on a relatively minor point in the grand scheme of things, but in the absence of conclusive evidence I refuse to yield even such a small portion of faith in the Lost crew's writing skills.


Using your line of thought, how was Locke NOT transported with Ben?
He was in the same room when Ben "activated" the vault.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> From now on, when someone enters the wheel room, they are going to have to jump and will probably wind up on the ground. The desert connection could be the same way. The writers might have shown him on his back both times to indicate to the viewers that he DID change places both times.


No, they shows him falling down the latter to explain why he cut his sholder, that's all.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

They show us this so we know that little to no time has passed between Ben moving the island, and future Ben who ended up in the Desert. Otherwise we would argue that he didn't time travel straight to there because his arm would be healed...

Also the fact that its' cold in that room doesn't have to mean it's in a polar region. It just means that something is making it cold, for all we know Dharma may have it chilled so they can harness it's power. Or the exotic matter may generate the cold effect.

Just because it's cold doesn't mean it has to be in a cold climate!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Seriously, by that logic, the inside of your freezer must be in a polar region!


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

jradford said:


> Maybe the island's original location, prior to any moves through history, was in a polar region. This little cave is a remnant of this original location. The polar bears were on the island because they moved with the island from the polar region. Over time, the polar-esque island became tropical, due to it's new location. Maybe??


That's an interesting idea, and could help explain the strange "magnetic properties" the hatch was originally in place to control.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> Jack told Desmond to stay hidden--that must have been hard unless Penny is completely estranged from her father at this point. Still, he probably has her followed just to see what she's found out about the island.


That reminds me, I think Ben's promise to kill Widmore's daughter is going to be a really big deal, (I know, not going too much out on a limb here) and it appears when that confrontation goes down, Desmond will be there. That is a good reason to get them back together now instead of waiting until series end.



Magister said:


> I disagree with most people here on this statement. I don't think Hurley is saying that they are lying to protect the people left behind, including Walt's dad. I think he is saying, they are lying like Michael had to when he was in the normal world. Remember, Michael had to lie when he was back in the real world.


Hmm. That never occurred to me, but it's possible. I was struck by how calm Hurley was, no hint that he was trying to cover up something when he said "Yeah, like your dad."



jradford said:


> Maybe the island's original location, prior to any moves through history, was in a polar region. This little cave is a remnant of this original location. The polar bears were on the island because they moved with the island from the polar region. Over time, the polar-esque island became tropical, due to it's new location. Maybe??


I like that theory. It also fits with "It's not an island." Maybe now that it's moved, it isn't even an island anymore (which would really freak out the people there).

When the 06 have talked about "going back," has anyone used the word "island"? Maybe they have, but I don't remember one way or another.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

vertigo235 said:


> They show us this so we know that little to no time has passed between Ben moving the island, and future Ben who ended up in the Desert. Otherwise we would argue that he didn't time travel straight to there because his arm would be healed...
> 
> Also the fact that its' cold in that room doesn't have to mean it's in a polar region. It just means that something is making it cold, for all we know Dharma may have it chilled so they can harness it's power. Or the exotic matter may generate the cold effect.
> 
> Just because it's cold doesn't mean it has to be in a cold climate!


Yes! This is exactly it! I actually intended on replying with this exact sentiment, but didn't submit because I didn't think I had explained it well. But this sums it up perfectly.

The purpose of the cut was for the viewer. It was the one constant that would give us a "landmark" with which we could judge when Ben arrived in the desert. Some may think the parka itself would have been enough, but a still untreated cut is even more clear cut (pun fully intended).


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> They show us this so we know that little to no time has passed between Ben moving the island, and future Ben who ended up in the Desert. Otherwise we would argue that he didn't time travel straight to there because his arm would be healed...
> 
> Also the fact that its' cold in that room doesn't have to mean it's in a polar region. It just means that something is making it cold, for all we know Dharma may have it chilled so they can harness it's power. Or the exotic matter may generate the cold effect.
> 
> Just because it's cold doesn't mean it has to be in a cold climate!


The wheel room was outside of the Dharma stuff. Outside of the station itself. Ben walked through something akin to a cave. The wheel room seemed to predate the station.

The deeper you go in the earth, the hotter it gets. Not colder. How's that for logic?


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> The wheel room was outside of the Dharma stuff. Outside of the station itself. Ben walked through something akin to a cave. The wheel room seemed to predate the station.
> 
> The deeper you go in the earth, the hotter it gets. Not colder. How's that for logic?


The deeper into the ocean you go the colder it gets. Maybe they're just underwater.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> The deeper you go in the earth, the hotter it gets. Not colder. How's that for logic?


Then why is it so damn cold here in my basement?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> Then why is it so damn cold here in my basement?


The level of a basement underground is something like 56 degrees. It never gets hotter, it never gets colder. It certainly isn't cold enough to form ice. Unless you are in the arctic.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

hapdrastic said:


> The deeper into the ocean you go the colder it gets. Maybe they're just underwater.


No matter how deep you go in the ocean, there is no ice...


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> The deeper you go in the earth, the hotter it gets. Not colder. How's that for logic?


Uh, perhaps the same "logic" that accounts for the magical energy field that allows someone to turn a wooden wheel and move an island.

Why is it acceptable for the energy to be able to transport an island but it not be ok for that energy to also create a very cold environment?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Uh, perhaps the same "logic" that accounts for the magical energy field that allows someone to turn a wooden wheel and move an island.
> 
> Why is it acceptable for the energy to be able to transport an island but it not be ok for that energy to also create a very cold environment?


Why is it also unacceptable that the wheel room is in a different place? It is as reasonable an explanation as the magical energy field that makes things cold.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Why is it also unacceptable that the wheel room is in a different place? It is as reasonable an explanation as the magical energy field that makes things cold.


It's possible, _but there's no evidence that this is the case._ There's absolutely nothing at all that leads us to that conclusion. Whereas the evidence we can see, that he climbs through a tunnel that's CLEARLY attached to the room points to it being the same place.

You could just as easily say that the cave from season 1 was actually in Seattle, that they transported to it each time they entered it. There's nothing to dispute it, so it must be a valid theory.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> The level of a basement underground is something like 56 degrees. It never gets hotter, it never gets colder. It certainly isn't cold enough to form ice. Unless you are in the arctic.


I don't think we can base conclusions on standard concepts. The mere fact that we are debating where an "island moving room" is located allows almost any other concept to exist. There is no reason the donkey wheel room can't be frozen due to some weird property of the energy field. It would be as ridiculous to state that there is ice, hence it must be in the arctic, as it would to state there is no ice, hence it must be part of the island.


BeanMeScot said:


> Why is it also unacceptable that the wheel room is in a different place? It is as reasonable an explanation as the magical energy field that makes things cold.


It's not unacceptable. It's one of the possibilities. And LOST has shown us the futility of stating absolutes. Neither side of this debate should consider its beliefs as iron-clad, etched in stone, conclusions. There *will be* something next season that will change everything we thought we knew.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> The wheel room was outside of the Dharma stuff. Outside of the station itself. Ben walked through something akin to a cave. The wheel room seemed to predate the station.
> 
> The deeper you go in the earth, the hotter it gets. Not colder. How's that for logic?


You are impossible. Sure if you go close enough to the earths core, it will get hotter. You think the room was close to the earths core? Or close to a magma flow? Clearly it wasn't because it was COLD 

Something was making it cold, but that doesn't by any means indicate that the tunnel he crawled threw took him to anther place on the planet.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> The wheel room was outside of the Dharma stuff. Outside of the station itself. Ben walked through something akin to a cave. The wheel room seemed to predate the station.
> 
> The deeper you go in the earth, the hotter it gets. Not colder. How's that for logic?


Also the wheel room seemed to be the same type of "dating" that the special room behind Ben's book shelf (when he summoned the smoke monster) was. Do you think that Ben went to another place on the planet then too? It wasn't cold there, maybe he was in Georgia or something?

It's completely plausible!!!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Alright guys...

Earlier I was reading this thread and thought hey, someone should edit together Ben's scenes with the frozen donkey wheel in There's No Place Like Home with him waking up in Tunisia in The Shape of Things to Come.

So I did. I also edited OUT the scenes of anyone BUT Ben (so gone is Locke with the Others, Sawyer & Juliet on the beach, and everything prior to Ben waking up in Tunisia).






It was tempting to make it a Rickroll, but it's not, I promise. Listen closely to the sound that you hear when the screen starts to go white and compare with the sound as he wakes up.

What I also want to do is the same thing with Desmond and the hatch. Unfortunately I don't have the .tivo files anymore, so that one's a bit more tricky (ripping the DVD's first). I do think, however, that they'll match pretty well.

Anyway, more discussion-fodder. 

Greg


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Sounds like dramatic music as he is waking up.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> You are impossible. Sure if you go close enough to the earths core, it will get hotter. You think the room was close to the earths core? Or close to a magma flow? Clearly it wasn't because it was COLD
> 
> Something was making it cold, but that doesn't by any means indicate that the tunnel he crawled threw took him to anther place on the planet.


Until you get close enough to the earth's core for it to warm up, it stays at a steady 56 degrees. Period. It doesn't get colder the farther you go down. It is cooler than the surface, but that's it. It doesn't get icy unless you are above the frost line.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I don't think we can base conclusions on standard concepts. The mere fact that we are debating where an "island moving room" is located allows almost any other concept to exist. There is no reason the donkey wheel room can't be frozen due to some weird property of the energy field. It would be as ridiculous to state that there is ice, hence it must be in the arctic, as it would to state there is no ice, hence it must be part of the island.
> 
> It's not unacceptable. It's one of the possibilities. And LOST has shown us the futility of stating absolutes. Neither side of this debate should consider its beliefs as iron-clad, etched in stone, conclusions. There *will be* something next season that will change everything we thought we knew.


I never said this was the only possiblity. Others are arguing that the wheel room being attached to the island is the only possiblity. Talk to them.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

It's not music, unless you define "music" as a half second long. The sound may have been created by a musical instrument, but it's not music. It's a whoosh. 

Greg


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Until you get close enough to the earth's core for it to warm up, it stays at a steady 56 degrees. Period. It doesn't get colder the farther you go down. It is cooler than the surface, but that's it. It doesn't get icy unless you are above the frost line.


If it helps you, I agree that it's not cold because it's deep, I think there is something else making it cold.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

gchance said:


> It's not music, unless you define "music" as a half second long. The sound may have been created by a musical instrument, but it's not music. It's a whoosh.
> 
> Greg


There was steady music as he was turning the wheel. It was building as he turned. When he opened his eyes, a bunch of stringed instruments rubbed their strings back and forth at once and he gasped. That's just dramatic music. If there was anything else, it was hidden by the music.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I think it's funny that he went down the "rabbit hole", you know time traveling bunnies, and there just happens to be this small rabbit hole tunnel that he goes through.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

All I know is that no matter how clear the writers and directors of this show make a scene, no matter that they show virtually every single step and incident that happens in a certain situation... someone will argue that there is a possibility that it happened some other way (which of course there is, even though there is no evidence for it). 

Gotta love this show.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> The deeper you go in the earth, the hotter it gets. Not colder. How's that for logic?


Sorry BMS, but that's a flawed premise.
Caves are often colder than the outside.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Sorry BMS, but that's a flawed premise.
> Caves are often colder than the outside.


Interesting but it seems to be caused by the insulating properties of lava. So it's not so much a cave as a lava tube.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Do we know what the relationship is between Penny and her father? Is she spying on him secretly? He surely doesn't know she is following his freighter around, does he? Does he care enough about her to protect her?


Penny isn't following her father's freighter around. She was sitting comfortably at her home while the freighter was already at the island, until Desmond called her on Christmas Eve.


newsposter said:


> so what's the list of people who officially made it back and were on the news vs people who made it back and were in hiding
> 
> after seeing walt it made me realize i forgot that others may have made it back.


Like who? People from the plane?

Something that I think is interesting is that the writers/producers pretty much assumed that everyone viewing this episode had already seen the Orchid Orientation Video. Therefore, when Ben said his bit about "time traveling bunnies," it made perfect sense to us. But in the context of the scene, it didn't make sense at all. Locke didn't get that far into the tape before it started rewinding. I just think that's a little presumptuous of them to assume that everyone's seen the video. Although a lot of people have, I'll bet that far fewer than half of the regular viewers of the show had any idea what was on that Orientation Video, and therefore Ben's comment made no sense to them.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Others are arguing that the wheel room being attached to the island is the only possiblity. Talk to them.


Who's saying that? I don't see anyone that's saying it's the "only" possibility.


----------



## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

DLiquid said:


> Okay I watched the ice cavern scene again and I now agree it's on the island. What threw me off is that despite Ben lighting a lantern, there is natural light in there. It looks like filtered sunlight, or the way sunlight looks at dusk. So either the cavern is glowing or a shaft extends up to the surface and is letting in light.


It's probably more simple than that.

I vote that it is _supposed _to be pitch black.
The only reason there is light is because we, the viewers, need to see what the actor is doing.


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I doubt very much that the writers of Lost would show us a space/time traveling machine, and then not use it.


I think this is a reach for two separate reasons.

1: They had already used it before we even saw it. This scene is clearly the "other half" of the scene in an earlier episode in which Ben found himself in the desert and later asked what year it was. This scene makes sense as nothing more than an explanation of what happened in that "earlier" ("later" ("earlier")) scene.

2: It's extremely possible, even likely, that this gun being hung on the mantle at the end of act 4 is going to be fired (again) in act 5. (The obvious way is to answer how the island got moved, and what exactly that means. But it could turn out to be a lot more than that.)


----------



## jwjody (Dec 7, 2002)

I also thought the frozen donkey wheel was part of the island because of the writing on the stone marker that the lantern was hanging on. I just assumed the writing came from the same people that built the statue we haven't seen anything else of.

Sometimes I believe the island is the Garden of Eden and that's why people get better when they're on the island, but that theory doesn't completely fly. Then sometimes I think it's Atlantis.

J


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Bryanmc said:


> He landed on his back getting in the wheel room because the ladder broke. I've done that before without transporting to another location.


How can you be sure of that? You could have ended up 100 ms in the future


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jwjody said:


> I also thought the frozen donkey wheel was part of the island because of the writing on the stone marker that the lantern was hanging on. I just assumed the writing came from the same people that built the statue we haven't seen anything else of.
> ...
> J


That reminds me, the lantern was just like the one at Jacob's cabin (which doesn't really add anything to the "Did Ben teleport to the arctic?" debate).


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And having Ben transported from an ice chamber to the desert through a mechanism whereby presumably polar bears are transported both to the desert and to the island, without involving a polar region, is stretching coincidence far beyond what I would expect even with Lost.


Do we know that the polar bears were transported to the island? I don't think so. Do we know that they were transported to the desert? Not for sure, but at least there's some evidence of it.


BeanMeScot said:


> Since there are no Polar Bears on Pluto, the Arctic seems more likely...
> 
> Someone said it earlier. The polar bears wound up in the desert. If this is the way they came, how? You couldn't put them in that elevator. You couldn't toss them into the hole where the donkey wheel was. Yet they did wind up in the desert exactly where Ben did. How?


I'm pretty sure there were was only one polar bear found in the desert. I might be remembering incorrectly.


hapdrastic said:


> went for the manual override.


I think we've seen that before


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Who's saying that? I don't see anyone that's saying it's the "only" possibility.


Lots of certainty here...



Tivortex said:


> This is the first time I've ever seen you be *completely* off base Rob.
> Ben blew out the backside of the enclosure to gain access to a tunnel that took him to the donkey wheel, where as a side effect of the (whatever it is in there) the temperature was freezing.





hapdrastic said:


> I have to agree with this. The only teleporting that happened is after Ben turned the wheel, not before. The wheel is (clearly) on the island.
> 
> BTW, I don't remember who said it, but the theory that in the past polar bears were used to turn the wheel and that's why one was in Africa is awesome.





Jeeters said:


> I agree that all Ben did was deliberately blow a hole in the back of the chamber.
> 
> From the orientation video: "_This the vault. Constructed next to what we believe to be a pocket of negatively charged exotic matter..."_
> 
> Ben blew a hole in the vault to get to what was next door.





spikedavis said:


> Wow-I have to agree. That's a stretch. The entire reason he put all that crap in there was to get TO the energy that the chamber was built next to.





DLiquid said:


> Okay I watched the ice cavern scene again and I now agree it's on the island. What threw me off is that despite Ben lighting a lantern, there is natural light in there. It looks like filtered sunlight, or the way sunlight looks at dusk. So either the cavern is glowing or a shaft extends up to the surface and is letting in light.





pcguru83 said:


> Completely agree. I'm just not seeing the confusion in whether it happened on or off the Island. I don't think it could have been made any more clear.





Bryanmc said:


> Sure there is. By default I'm going to assume that a person doesn't transport to another location simply because she/he goes from one room to another.
> 
> It fairly clearly showed him climbing down a ladder from one room into another room. Every indication is that he never left the island. Would you assume that every time someone climbed down the hatch in season 2 they were transported off the island to another location?
> 
> What's different here?





wprager said:


> There may not have been any evidence, but consider this. Ben was pretty clear that, once he had moved the Island, he would not be able to get back to it. That would mean that either the Island moved and he didn't, or both the Island and Ben moved, but in different directions. I find the second one nearly impossible to explain using any pseudo-scientific explanations.





Turtleboy said:


> When he was transferred to the Sahara there seemed to be a special effects "whoosh." When the Island was moved, thre was a special effect "whoosh."
> 
> Here, he just walked through a hole and climbed (fell?) down the ladder.





BitbyBlit said:


> I don't think that's what happened. I was responding to the idea that Ben had already left island when he entered the wheel room, and that turning the wheel closed the connection between the island and the room, which is what prevented Ben from going back.
> 
> If that was the case, it would seem that the island could only be moved once. I think it is more likely that the wheel is part of the island, and that whoever is inside the room when it is turned gets teleported somewhere else. This allows the island to be moved more than once, but kicks people off of it who turn the wheel.





Bryanmc said:


> Ok, I just rewatched the scene where Ben goes into the room to turn the wheel. It looks VERY much like it's all in the same place. There are a number of shots where you can see from the ice room up into the cave where Ben came from and from the cave down into the ice room. They're very connected and seems very clear that it's just down deep in the island.
> 
> As I've said before, and this reviewing just hammers it home for me, there's ZERO evidence that it's a different location and plenty of evidence that it's part of the island.





jwjody said:


> Could be smeeking but I don't think Ben left the island when he went down. During the video the Dr. said that the chamber was built adjacent to a pocket of what they believe to be negatively charged exotic matter.
> 
> J





vertigo235 said:


> They show us this so we know that little to no time has passed between Ben moving the island, and future Ben who ended up in the Desert. Otherwise we would argue that he didn't time travel straight to there because his arm would be healed...
> 
> Also the fact that its' cold in that room doesn't have to mean it's in a polar region. It just means that something is making it cold, for all we know Dharma may have it chilled so they can harness it's power. Or the exotic matter may generate the cold effect.
> 
> Just because it's cold doesn't mean it has to be in a cold climate!


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Something that I think is interesting is that the writers/producers pretty much assumed that everyone viewing this episode had already seen the Orchid Orientation Video. Therefore, when Ben said his bit about "time traveling bunnies," it made perfect sense to us. But in the context of the scene, it didn't make sense at all. Locke didn't get that far into the tape before it started rewinding. I just think that's a little presumptuous of them to assume that everyone's seen the video. Although a lot of people have, I'll bet that far fewer than half of the regular viewers of the show had any idea what was on that Orientation Video, and therefore Ben's comment made no sense to them.


I think it made sense in the context of the scene.

Dr Halliwax said that the bunny would be shifted 100 miliseconds in 4 dimensional space and that the bunny would appear to disappear for a moment. That is the "time travelling bunny". The fact that the video didn't play long enough to actually see anything teleport doesn't matter.

Z


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> Lots of certainty here...


Nowhere in any of those quotes do I see someone saying that it can "only" be attached to the island. We're saying that all the evidence sure seems to indicate that this is the case, that it seems incredibly clear.

But this is Lost, and we all know that. I don't think anyone would say something in absolute terms like you're saying we did. No one, that I've seen, has said that the room being attached to the island is the "only possibility".

*You* said that we're saying that the room being attached to the island is the "only possibility". I'm pointing out that no one has said this. That's all.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Therefore, when Ben said his bit about "time traveling bunnies," it made perfect sense to us. But in the context of the scene, it didn't make sense at all.


It didn't make sense in the context of the scene, but it also didn't matter in the plot of the episode. It was an inside joke for us who've seen it. It's like Hurley walking up to his house with a bag of Mr. Cluck's. Most of us know he worked at one, bought one, and the stuff happened in Tricia Tanaka's Dead... but many viewers would have forgotten about that and not thought twice about it. They would have just thought "Wow, he ate at a fast food chicken place."

Same thing.

Greg


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> The deeper you go in the earth, the hotter it gets. Not colder. How's that for logic?


Heat is energy. Cold is just the absence of heat. I don't know a thing about negative energy, but it seems logical that an area surrounding a pocket of it would be cold.

If you're going to argue that a person goes through a wormhole to another place when we clearly see the progression from place to place, then you have to accept all kinds of possibilities. When people left the island and came back, how do we know it's the same island? How do we know that Penny isn't really the smoke monster? When Locke and Ben are down in the station, how do we know that's not a flashback or flash forward? At some point you have to believe what you see unless given a logical reason to believe otherwise.

I think the point of the Orientation Video is the corollary of Chekhov's gun. If a gun is fired in Act Two it should be on the mantle in Act One. The video makes a point of saying the bunny "will appear to disappear" only to reappear a few moments later. Then later in the episode the island is "moved" and disappears. I think this is to clue us in to the fact that the island is moving in time as well as (or instead of) space.


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

steve614 said:


> It's probably more simple than that.
> 
> I vote that it is _supposed _to be pitch black.
> The only reason there is light is because we, the viewers, need to see what the actor is doing.


That was my interpretation as well. The first thing he does is light a lantern.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> Nowhere in any of those quotes do I see someone saying that it can "only" be attached to the island. We're saying that all the evidence sure seems to indicate that this is the case, that it seems incredibly clear.
> 
> But this is Lost, and we all know that. I don't think anyone would say something in absolute terms like you're saying we did. No one, that I've seen, has said that the room being attached to the island is the "only possibility".
> 
> *You* said that we're saying that the room being attached to the island is the "only possibility". I'm pointing out that no one has said this. That's all.





Bryanmc said:


> Ok, I just rewatched the scene where Ben goes into the room to turn the wheel. It looks VERY much like it's all in the same place. There are a number of shots where you can see from the ice room up into the cave where Ben came from and from the cave down into the ice room. They're very connected and seems very clear that it's just down deep in the island.
> 
> As I've said before, and this reviewing just hammers it home for me, there's ZERO evidence that it's a different location and plenty of evidence that it's part of the island.


 So Zero means there is still a possibility. Ok, thanks for the math lesson...


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> So Zero means there is still a possibility. Ok, thanks for the math lesson...


I don't understand what's being lost in translation here.

I said there's zero _evidence_ that points to the room being in another place. That's not the same thing as saying it's not possible it's in another place.

Of course it's possible, all I'm saying is that based on the evidence that we've seen so far it doesn't appear that way at all. But of course there's the possibility.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Penny isn't following her father's freighter around. She was sitting comfortably at her home while the freighter was already at the island, until Desmond called her on Christmas Eve.


I didn't mean physically following it around, but didn't Minkowski say she had been calling the freighter regularly for weeks? So I assumed she had a clue what it was looking for and probably where it was. That's why I was surprized when she said she traced his call--she could have done that the first time she called them. But how long has it been since Christmas eve? Time enough for her to charter a boat and get a crew and get out there?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

BeanMeScot said:


> I don't understand your point. Dharma was harnassing something that was already there. He blew up the time/space thing because he needed to get to the wheel room. Whether the wheel room was on the island or merely connected to it doesn't change that.


There were two arguments that I was arguing against:

1. That blowing up the Dharma device was to open a wormhole to the wheel room.
2. That the reason Ben could not get back to the island was because turning the wheel closed a wormhole between the wheel room and the Orchid.

Both were arguments that those things were signs that there was a wormhole between the wheel room and the Orchid, and I was arguing that neither of those things indicated that there was a wormhole.

Now, that doesn't mean that there couldn't have been a wormhole there, but nothing in this episode indicated that there was more likely to have been a wormhole between the wheel room and the Orchid than in any other passage we have seen.


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## zync (Feb 22, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> So Zero means there is still a possibility. Ok, thanks for the math lesson...


OK - that's it... we've had enough of this discussion. I hereby declare that Hitler built the donkey wheel and the Others are a bunch of Nazis.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

zordude said:


> I think it made sense in the context of the scene.
> 
> Dr Halliwax said that the bunny would be shifted 100 miliseconds in 4 dimensional space and that the bunny would appear to disappear for a moment. That is the "time travelling bunny". The fact that the video didn't play long enough to actually see anything teleport doesn't matter.
> 
> Z


Many folks would not notice a bunny disappearing for 100ms. That's a tenth of one second.

Say, maybe bunnies are doing 100 ms and 10 ms temporal jumps all the time around us and nobody except a few frustrated quick brown foxes are noticing...


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Bryanmc said:


> I don't understand what's being lost in translation here.
> 
> I said there's zero _evidence_ that points to the room being in another place. That's not the same thing as saying it's not possible it's in another place.
> 
> Of course it's possible, all I'm saying is that based on the evidence that we've seen so far it doesn't appear that way at all. But of course there's the possibility.


Not quite zero. The recurring polar bear theme is at least a hint that maybe that room lies elsewhere. I'm agnostic as the location of the room either way doesn't effect my interest in the fascinating LOST universe.

The things that interest and mystify me the most are the 'dead people' appearances (projections of 'the island', whatever it is???) and the implications of the 4 toed statue. I'm cool with the island, bunnies and people space-time transitions using the negative energy Casimir effect.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

From what I can gather, it seems those who believe Ben was transported off the Island believed this happened when he descended through the ice, correct?

I present to you this picture:










You can clearly see the original ladder as Ben has already crossed the threshold to the second ladder. There is most definitely two distinct ladders though.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

pcguru83 said:


> From what I can gather, it seems those who believe Ben was transported off the Island believed this happened when he descended through the ice, correct?
> 
> I present to you this picture:
> 
> ...


I don't see what this proves either way. If there is a portal at the ice threshold, you're just looking through back through to the island.

If there's no portal then there's multiple ladders because the cave isn't straight, there needs to be different ladders at different junctions.

I don't see what 2 ladders has to do with either theory, seems to work fine with both.


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## pcguru83 (Jan 18, 2005)

wprager said:


> And how would you imagine going through a wormhole to look/feel/sound? Yes, I *am* only half serious.
> 
> When they first showed the ice "hole" it looked like it was at the bottom of where he was climbing, and thereby at the top of the chamber he eventually fell into. However as he climbs in, it is evident that the chamber continues much higher above the ice hole. How is that possible?
> 
> ...


The picture was primarily in response to this post. I could have sworn there was at least one more making mention of the positioning of the ladder(s) proving/disproving transportation, but I can't find it now.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> I never said this was the only possiblity. Others are arguing that the wheel room being attached to the island is the only possiblity. Talk to them.


What others are you talking about? I thought Rob and I were the only people who thought this way (that the wheel room was separate from the Island) but neither one of us has argued that this was the only possible "solution".

I just need a good (logical would be nice) reason why, when the Island moves one way, that the person pushing the wheel moves another. Why does Ben wind up in the Sahara, but not the wheel, which he was clutching. I can _buy_ some explanation about a bubble around the Island and how perhaps even the rescue raft (and Jin, who had jumped overboard) may have been whisked away with the Island, but it would be hard to explain how a small pocket of space, namely Ben, was moved somewhere else.

Perhaps there is some matter/antimatter or matter/mirror-matter explanation. For example, the wheel and the wheel room are made of some exotic material (like the mirror-matter mentioned in one of the links previously posted), and when the Island is moved, everything in that room that is regular matter gets pushed away. That would be one possible explanation.

Another possible explanation (already brought up) is that Ben is dead and somehow that's preventing him from getting back to the Island.

I'm sure there are other possible explanations, but I have not seen clues pointing to them yet. Or maybe I have, but had not noticed.

EDIT: Well, I did say _*nearly* impossible to explain_, so that's not exactly certainty


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Something that I think is interesting is that the writers/producers pretty much assumed that everyone viewing this episode had already seen the Orchid Orientation Video. Therefore, when Ben said his bit about "time traveling bunnies," it made perfect sense to us. But in the context of the scene, it didn't make sense at all. Locke didn't get that far into the tape before it started rewinding. I just think that's a little presumptuous of them to assume that everyone's seen the video. Although a lot of people have, I'll bet that far fewer than half of the regular viewers of the show had any idea what was on that Orientation Video, and therefore Ben's comment made no sense to them.


Locke asked Ben the question after the tape started to rewind. After he tried stopping and restarting it. So the part where Halliwax mentions moving the bunny 100 milliseconds into the future had already been played.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Interesting but it seems to be caused by the insulating properties of lava. So it's not so much a cave as a lava tube.


Tropical Islands often have or had Volcanic activity.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

pcguru83 said:


> The picture was primarily in response to this post. I could have sworn there was at least one more making mention of the positioning of the ladder(s) proving/disproving transportation, but I can't find it now.


I think that other one may have been mine as well. When Ben is going down the first ladder and we see the ice cover, the angle of it looks like it's a hole in the floor covered with ice. But when he is inside the wheel room you can clearly see that the hole he came through is not at the highest point of the room, and the room. It may have been the camera angle that threw me off, and the hole covered by ice was not completely horizontal, but slanted, which is consistent with it being on the side of a dome-shaped cavern.

And, besides, I never presented the _potential_ differences in the direction of the gravitational pull as evidence of on/off Island. Anyone play Mario Galaxy on the Wii? They have lots of places where the direction of gravity switches from one surface to another. It's a bit disorienting, but it's still all in the same space.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Something I just thought about. Everyone (or at least a lot of us) thinks that the Island has moved before. That could be an explanation of how the Black Rock and Yemi's plane got there. However the "vault" covered up the entrance to the cave/tunnel which led to the wheel room, and this makes me seriously doubt that the Dharma people knew anything about it. Ben's attitude toward their experiments also supports that they knew nothing of the potential power -- they moved bunnies 1/10 of a second into the future, while Ben moved the whole friggin' Island who-knows-where-or-when. 

So it's pretty safe to assume that Dharma people never moved the Island. I would also say that the Island was not moved after Dharma people got there (otherwise the "Vault" would not be still there). But then there goes the explanation for Yemi's plane, no?

Maybe I should just stop watching altogether and wait until the entire series is available in one box-set, with a "Lost for Dummies" book explaining everything included in the set.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

wprager said:


> Ben's attitude toward their experiments also supports that they knew nothing of the potential power -- they moved bunnies 1/10 of a second into the future, while Ben moved the whole friggin' Island who-knows-where-or-when.


They were trying to harness and control the power. They probably knew that the island could be moved, but they weren't interested in doing it, they were interested in figuring out how to use that power for something else. In that sense, it probably was a lot harder to figure out how to move a small object at will, rather than move the whole island by using some uncontrollable force.


----------



## Beerhouse (Sep 27, 2006)

reddice said:


> I doubt that Jin is dead.


If I remember correctly, there was a flash-forward episode earlier this season with Jin running through the streets of a downtown Japanese(?) city, trying to deliver a panda to the hospital, where Sun is about to give birth to their baby. He enters the hospital, only to be stopped by a government official and then just drops the stuffed animal off. He also catches a quick glimpse of Sun through a closing door.

Can someone verify this? If true, we already know he is alive. I'm pretty certain that was not a flashback.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Beerhouse said:


> If I remember correctly, there was a flash-forward episode earlier this season with Jin running through the streets of a downtown Japanese(?) city, trying to deliver a panda to the hospital, where Sun is about to give birth to their baby. He enters the hospital, only to be stopped by a government official and then just drops the stuffed animal off. He also catches a quick glimpse of Sun through a closing door.
> 
> Can someone verify this? If true, we already know he is alive. I'm pretty certain that was not a flashback.


It was a flashback. That was the entire point of the episode.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Beerhouse said:


> Can someone verify this? If true, we already know he is alive. I'm pretty certain that was not a flashback.


It was a flashback. Already discussed in this thread.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

wprager said:


> What others are you talking about? I thought Rob and I were the only people who thought this way (that the wheel room was separate from the Island) but neither one of us has argued that this was the only possible "solution".


 I was agreeing with this proposal, not objecting to it...I am also saying it is possible that the wheel room isn't on the island.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> I am also saying it is possible that the wheel room isn't on the island.


FTR, we're _all_ saying it's possible.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Tropical Islands often have or had Volcanic activity.


These caves also seem to be close to the surface. In fact, it says if the doors are left open, the ice melts. The wheel room seemed to be pretty far underground.


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Beerhouse said:


> If I remember correctly, there was a flash-forward episode earlier this season with Jin running through the streets of a downtown Japanese(?) city, trying to deliver a panda to the hospital, where Sun is about to give birth to their baby. He enters the hospital, only to be stopped by a government official and then just drops the stuffed animal off. He also catches a quick glimpse of Sun through a closing door.
> 
> Can someone verify this? If true, we already know he is alive. I'm pretty certain that was not a flashback.


It's not Sun and her baby. It's a disguised flashback.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> These caves also seem to be close to the surface. In fact, it says if the doors are left open, the ice melts. The wheel room seemed to be pretty far underground.


How long was the door to the wheel room closed?
A couple of decades?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

JYoung said:


> How long was the door to the wheel room closed?
> A couple of decades?


But I don't think it was close to the surface. Unless they were no longer on the island.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> I was agreeing with this proposal, not objecting to it...I am also saying it is possible that the wheel room isn't on the island.


Oh, well ... in that case, never mind.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Okay, after pages of this, I have to say that I am in the "wheel room is on the island" camp. The video says that the EM energy within the island makes time travel possible, and later claims it is a property of "this island" which I think isolates the propery to the island itself. Having it not on the island would suggest it would be possible to move the island even though you have never been there. I think the only way to move the island is from the island, so the wheel room must be there.

I agree, Widmore must have moved it once, hence he can never find it again, and Locke seems to have told the O6 (as Bentham) that things got very bad after they left, so it is likely that he too needed to move the island, which is how/why he got off of it.

Oh, if Locke was off the island, was he back in the wheelchair? He would not have done that unless he was compelled.

In the elevator, Ben says the station is DEEP, and Darma conducts silly experiments. This implies the island has properties that Darma was only barely using.

Jacob didn't tell Locke how to move the island, because he wanted him to stay, and Ben to get off. Ben tells Locke that whoever moves the island can NEVER come back. He doesn't say, can't get back, as in the tunnel moves, but can never come back. Of course Ben lies *A LOT*, so I don't think that his statement is necessarily true. When he is in the wheel room, he says, "I hope you're happy now Jacob," just before he turns the wheel. What does that mean?

While he is turning the wheel, it looks like he is crying, so maybe it really is true that he will never be able to return. Maybe he is hoping to return via the O6 if he is with them when they attempt to go back.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

For those who think Jin is not dead, I re-watched the explosion. Just before the explosion, there is no-one on the deck. That is pretty much clear. Of course you can argue that it was just a scale model and they didn't have time/budget to CGI a few people running around on deck. Or it was supposed to indicate that everyone had gotten off the freighter. There also was no visible life-boats in the water surrounding the boat, and it was a fairly wide shot. Again, could be simple time/money budget restriction, or meant to indicate that all life-boats had already gotten off camera. There was also what looked like a wake from something moving off to the right of the freighter. Probably nothing, but wouldn't be a stretch to think that could be Jin swimming (furiously) away from the explosion.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> But I don't think it was close to the surface. Unless they were no longer on the island.


I don't think that the heat from the Earth's core makes a difference until you start getting miles below the surface.
All Ben said was that it's "Deep" but I don't think that it's miles below the surface.


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

jeff125va said:


> That's sort of my point: we never actually saw Charlie 100% unequivocally dead


He looked pretty dead to me.... floating away from the window there... how dead do you have to look to be dead?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> Okay, after pages of this, I have to say that I am in the "wheel room is on the island" camp. The video says that the EM energy within the island makes time travel possible, and later claims it is a property of "this island" which I think isolates the propery to the island itself. Having it not on the island would suggest it would be possible to move the island even though you have never been there. I think the only way to move the island is from the island, so the wheel room must be there.
> 
> I agree, Widmore must have moved it once, hence he can never find it again, and Locke seems to have told the O6 (as Bentham) that things got very bad after they left, so it is likely that he too needed to move the island, which is how/why he got off of it.
> 
> ...


I like your reasoning.
Agree 100%.


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

GadgetFreak said:


> Most fans were bummed out when Mr. Eko died.


Hurley was playing chess with Mr. Eko. What do you mean he's dead?


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Philly Bill said:


> Hurley was playing chess with Mr. Eko. What do you mean he's dead?


I think Hurley plays chess with Mr. Eko _because_ he's dead.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The wheel room was neither on the island nor in the Arctic. It was not even on earth. It was in another dimension.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> The wheel room was neither on the island nor in the Arctic. It was not even on earth. It was in another dimension.


I think we might find Rose Tyler in that room next....


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

I love watching this show - reading all your discussions - and then watching again... very helpful!! Thanks, y'all! Sorry if I smeek though, I might have skimmed some...

Ben never ceases to amaze!! Wow, I do so love Michael Emerson and that character! :up: I nearly got a hernia helping him turn that big wheel. 

Woo, Claire gave me the chills. What does it mean that she had no accent? It sounded like she did when she first spoke - but definitely not when she said "Don't you DARE!" Whew. 

I was quite firmly in the "wheel room is probably on the island" camp - until noticing the drastic temperature difference between the first ladder and the second... with just the layer of ice (that's rather easily broken) acting as a seal. That second ladder was only, what, 5 rungs? So, it just seems to lend a bit of credence to the possibility of it being a portal of some sort, rather than just from the energy... I'd give it 70/30...  

Were there any more 'similar scenes'? I can't remember what that's called... but like the scene with Sawyer, and the helicopter crash? I enjoyed that. Both, very exciting scenes! 

Another thing I noticed - the people on the island had to shield their eyes when the 'glow' happened, as did the people in the life raft - the people on the helicopter did not... so, the boat moved with the island and I don't see how Jin could be near close enough to have moved as well.  I'm still hopeful that something else happens, and he gets rescued. 

Oh, and I think the coffin is full-sized.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Church AV Guy said:


> When he [Ben] is in the wheel room, he says, "I hope you're happy now Jacob," just before he turns the wheel. What does that mean?


yes, quoting myself here.

I have been thinknig about this and I think that Jacob never wanted Ben to be leader. that is why Locke heard Jacob say "Help me," when Ben took him to the cabin. Ben is saying that Jacob found a way to get rid of him and substitute Locke. He bitterly said this, in Jacob's face, as he hoped that getting rid of him was worth the trouble it took to make it happen.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

The real question is, if Sun were in the frozen donkey wheel room with Jae, and they were both naked, would one of them be sleeping with Ben in the Arctic, or would the other one be in Tunisia?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Hunter Green said:


> The real question is, if Sun were in the frozen donkey wheel room with Jae, and they were both naked, would one of them be sleeping with Ben in the Arctic, or would the other one be in Tunisia?


Yeah, they'd better answer that question before the series is over or in the final season box-set 

So, does anyone else think they will *not* end the series on television but, instead, have a cliffhanger at the end of the last season and then a movie?

EDIT: Post of the beast (#666).


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

great episode, very fun!


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> I think Hurley plays chess with Mr. Eko _because_ he's dead.


Which brings me to a conversation I had with hubby the other day. We were talking about the alternate endings they had to shoot so that way the real ending wouldn't get leaked. I said they should've made it to where everyone was in the coffin...but this brought up something that would've actually been a GREAT reveal...JACK in the coffin!!! That would've made what Hurley said about them all being dead even more spooky. DUN DUNNN DUNNNNNNN!


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Hunter Green said:


> The real question is, if Sun were in the frozen donkey wheel room with Jae, and they were both naked, would one of them be sleeping with Ben in the Arctic, or would the other one be in Tunisia?


It all depends....does she have an acorn???


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> Locke asked Ben the question after the tape started to rewind. After he tried stopping and restarting it. So the part where Halliwax mentions moving the bunny 100 milliseconds into the future had already been played.


But have you actually seen the whole Orchid video? It's much more explicit and I really wonder why it wasn't shown to the entire viewing audience.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

First, it should have been obvious to Locke that Halliwax was talking about time travel. Second, there are two ways that a tape will start rewinding like that: (a) someone pushed the stop/rewind buttons or (b) the tape reached the end and went into autorewind.

If it simply went into autorewind, Locke should have been able to press stop and play agin (although he wouldn't have gotten any further the second time). If someone pressed a button, and it wasn't Locke or Ben, then, whoa! If this were one of the later Star Trek shows, no problem, someone was in the room but out of phase with our timeline. But this Lost, so I don't know what to think.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

My first thought was that the machine had time shifted and Locke had pushed the rewind button so he was watching his future actions!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> First, it should have been obvious to Locke that Halliwax was talking about time travel. Second, there are two ways that a tape will start rewinding like that: (a) someone pushed the stop/rewind buttons or (b) the tape reached the end and went into autorewind.


Of course, you're forgetting the third way: Time starts going backward.


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## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> But have you actually seen the whole Orchid video? It's much more explicit and I really wonder why it wasn't shown to the entire viewing audience.


I don't think any of us have seen the entire Orchid video. My understanding is that the Orchid video on the previous season's DVD set was the "outtakes" from the Orchid video (that is, "real" outtakes from when Dharma made the video, not outtakes from when the makers of Lost made the video).

The video Locke was watching was the final-cut of the Orchid video and we didn't get to see all of that.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, you're forgetting the third way: Time starts going backward.


No, I thought about that, but there was a distinct sound of the button being pushed.

Edit: Yes, I saw the smiley.


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## jking (Mar 23, 2005)

wprager said:


> First, it should have been obvious to Locke that Halliwax was talking about time travel. Second, there are two ways that a tape mechanism will start rewinding like that: (a) someone pushed the stop/rewind buttons or (b) the tape reached the end and went into autorewind.


I used to work in an electronics shop repairing VCR's and I'm pretty sure I've seen a similar malfunction a time or two. One example would be if there was something wrong with the tape mechanism that caused it not to turn freely, that could "trick" the VCR into thinking it was at the end of the tape, thus causing it to kick into auto-rewind mode. And yes, it would be accompanied by a mechanical clicking sound, like what you would hear if you actually pushed the rewind button.

As for when it happened, I thought that would have been a perfect time for Locke's "we're gonna have to watch that again" line.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

jenhudson said:


> My first thought was that the machine had time shifted and Locke had pushed the rewind button so he was watching his future actions!


Thank you thank you thank you. I have been trying to put my thoughts into words and you just did it for me! xoxoxoxox



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, you're forgetting the third way: Time starts going backward.


Like the finale of Star Trek: TNG. They had a time paradox in that ep where the anomoly (sp?) was getting bigger in that past and smaller in the future.

Lastly........................

I think we are all in agreement about the dual nature of things on this show. Light/dark, black/white, etc.

So, say we go with matter/anti-matter or other Trek-like phenomenon......Well, maybe there is always anti-matter that mirrors it's matter counterpart......

Maybe there are "two worlds" (again like Trek eps of yore). Maybe there is two of everything. Maybe the unique nature of the Island causes things to not just travel in space/time, but cross over between worlds ......

If so, then you would be able to argue that there are two donkey wheels (as well as two Islands). If you turn the wheel in one world, maybe you are transported to a location in the other world (and thus satiate those that wonder why the Island travels to one place and the turner of the wheel to another).

Maybe this helps with why "they all have to get back"........maybe all related matter/anti-matter needs to exist in the same "location" to cause a reaction that will end the cycle. IIRMSHC (if I remember my Steven Hawking correctly), matter and anti-matter cannot exist in the same place at the same time. I think if you tried to combine the two that maybe a black hole is created (and IIRC, there often are a lot of wormholes around balckholes due to the excessive pressures and the warping of space/time). That would "destroy" the Island.

I may just be off my Monday rocker. I really look forward to seeing how this plays out.

And in relation to the comment that maybe the series ends on a cliff hanger with a movie after.........I really hope not.

That, to me, would be:


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> I must not watch the right shows. There's a stereotype about black fathers being absent? Why didn't anyone tell me? Seriously, I had no idea of this stereotype and part of me is wondering if it's real.


Are you being serious ? If so, just do a Google search on: stereotype black father. Here's the first result:

Shows, Books Work Against Stereotype of Black Men as Absent Dads


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

pcguru83 said:


> Completely agree. I'm just not seeing the confusion in whether it happened on or off the Island. I don't think it could have been made any more clear.


It could have been more clear if: a) the entrance to the cave wasn't behind a time machine, and b) the cave was dark and looked like it was underground.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> I think it's funny that he went down the "rabbit hole", you know time traveling bunnies, and there just happens to be this small rabbit hole tunnel that he goes through.


Smeek!


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

steve614 said:


> It's probably more simple than that.
> 
> I vote that it is _supposed _to be pitch black.
> The only reason there is light is because we, the viewers, need to see what the actor is doing.





Rosincrans said:


> That was my interpretation as well. The first thing he does is light a lantern.


Re-watch the scene. I don't think you can chalk this up to TV pseudo-darkness. An underground cave would be pitch black, yet as Ben looks down the ladder he sees a blue-lit oval of ice at the bottom. When he raises his shoe to break through the ice this even lights up the sole of his shoe. Then it's bright enough to read a book once he gets in there. I won't analyze the shadows .

This probably means nothing to the story, I only mentioned it originally because it led me to believe he was outside when I first watched it. If the cave were pitch black would anyone have thought he was transported to a polar region?


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

So nobody else was bothered by the horrible CGI?
For god's sake, McGrubber (SNL) has better looking explosions!


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> Re-watch the scene. I don't think you can chalk this up to TV pseudo-darkness. An underground cave would be pitch black, yet as Ben looks down the ladder he sees a blue-lit oval of ice at the bottom. When he raises his shoe to break through the ice this even lights up the sole of his shoe. Then it's bright enough to read a book once he gets in there. I won't analyze the shadows .
> 
> This probably means nothing to the story, I only mentioned it originally because it led me to believe he was outside when I first watched it. If the cave were pitch black would anyone have thought he was transported to a polar region?


Its bright enough to read but still he lights the lamp. And when he does, there is really no change in luminence. That, I believe, is what is confusing many, including myself.

If there had been visible light the same color temperature as the lamp on any of the walls of the chamber, then we could conclude that is was pretty dark down there. But without that, we should conclude that there was another source of light.

I chalked it up to a mistake by the DP (Director of Photography) and went with it was dark anyway because there was no other motivation for another light source unless it was coming from the the slot of the donkey wheel.

my $0.02.


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## sakura panda (Apr 6, 2004)

So many theories! I think this is the first time I've actually read a LOST thread while it was still active and I can't resist throwing in my own two cents. 

I was thinking that whatever non-supernatural scientific phenomenon is causing the shifting/moving to happen is the reason for the cold, the glow, the wheel's ability and why Ben ends up in the desert. Something like a meteor -- aren't those supposed to be super cold with magnetic properties or is that just when they're in space and being used as a plot device? 

For some reason, I thought that Ben in the desert fighting the natives was a different time than Ben checking into the hotel. I thought his clothes were different.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

DLiquid said:


> Re-watch the scene. I don't think you can chalk this up to TV pseudo-darkness. An underground cave would be pitch black, yet as Ben looks down the ladder he sees a blue-lit oval of ice at the bottom. When he raises his shoe to break through the ice this even lights up the sole of his shoe. Then it's bright enough to read a book once he gets in there. I won't analyze the shadows .


I agree that it's possible that there's a light source down there, just as I agree that it's possible that the donkey wheel room is not on the island.

That oval of ice _had_ to be lit up, because if it weren't, us viewers would wonder what Ben was stomping on, so I'm still going with that it's supposed to be pitch black.


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## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

steve614 said:


> That oval of ice _had_ to be lit up, because if it weren't, us viewers would wonder what Ben was stomping on, so I'm still going with that it's supposed to be pitch black.


I've seen plenty of movies and TV shows that do cave scenes well (e.g., The Descent). They could have easily done that scene with lantern or flashlight lighting if they wanted to, but they chose to use fairly bright blue lighting. You never see the ceiling of the wheel room, so the light could be coming from above. If the room just glows because of the negative energy, I'd be okay with that too.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Oh, another thing... was I the only person who at first thought that Ben pooped his pants after putting all the metal into the machine? I mean later it was obvious when he said, "I better change", he meant change into something warm. But for a second there I thought he meant he better change his shorts.

Heh.

Greg


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

gchance said:


> Oh, another thing... was I the only person who at first thought that Ben pooped his pants after putting all the metal into the machine? I mean later it was obvious when he said, "I better change", he meant change into something warm. But for a second there I thought he meant he better change his shorts.
> 
> Heh.
> 
> Greg


You just might be the only one


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I didn't enjoy this episode. It felt very disjointed and there were some very questionable production values even for a TV show.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

sakura panda said:


> I was thinking that whatever non-supernatural scientific phenomenon is causing the shifting/moving to happen is the reason for the cold, the glow, the wheel's ability and why Ben ends up in the desert. Something like a meteor -- aren't those supposed to be super cold with magnetic properties or is that just when they're in space and being used as a plot device?


Most meteors aren't magnetic. They're stony with a few nickel iron rocks.

Anyhow, the LOST show dialog specificly mentioned the CASIMIR effect, intimating negative energy which some real world physicists speculate could be utilized to create a wormhole thru spacetime to elsewhere/when. Your basic Sci-Fi 'explanation'.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

MonsterJoe said:


> I didn't enjoy this episode. It felt very disjointed and there were some very questionable production values even for a TV show.


In contrast, my taste runs to the outstanding story and acting, so production value deficits such as the so-so view of the ship blowing up are inconsequential to me. Different tastes is what makes the world interesting.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

Just before Ben heads down to the donkey wheel, he tells Locke "I'm sorry I made your life so miserable".

Since Locke has pretty much enjoyed his time on the island, I think this means he has known all of Locke's life that he was "The Chosen One" and has done all he can to prevent Locke from getting to the island. Including bringing the man from Talahasee back into his life.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

DLiquid said:


> Are you being serious ?


Nope, I wasn't. I talked to my wife about it and she knew about it. We talked about possible causes -- historical origins dating from pre-emancipation times, for instance, or the simple statistical fact of more black people living in urban poverty combined with the stronger emphasis on family in Latino culture.

But in the end, we concluded that while there may be a statistical fact and/or a stereotype, Michael and Walt didn't conform to either: it was plain that Michael wanted _more than anything_ to be with Walt, and that's pretty much his one trick, fighting against all odds to be with him. For Perrineau to get upset about that as a reinforcement of a stereotype seems absurd. (Not even accounting for the fact that pretty much every single character on the show who has a father has serious father issues, whether they're white or black or Latino or Korean or what-have-you.)


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

does everything in this show need to be dissected so?


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

/ducks


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

newsposter said:


> does everything in this show need to be dissected so?


I love your deadpan sense of humor.


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

newsposter said:


> does everything in this show need to be dissected so?


Did he say Goth?


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I love your deadpan sense of humor.


TY, I just speak my mind and ask any question i want to know the answer to.

And enjoy this show without all the dissection, though i dont mind if others really delve so deep. But i really wanted to know if the writer sat down and intertwined things as much as everyone thinks he did or if he is laughing at how much time gets spent talking about 'something he never even intended nor thought about.'

also i asked a question about the cast a while back and none of the experts even responded so i felt kinda hurt.  I stay out of lost threads because they are deep and i prefer to just watch the show and take it for what it is. But coming in here just seems to be battles of what was intended and what wasnt. Which, in fairness, maybe what the creator wanted.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Harold Perrineau clarifies his comments

Personally, I wasn't disappointed when he was killed. I never liked his character much.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I won't catch up anytime soon, so I'd just like to say hi from page 9 (yes, with the most posts per page).


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I wonder if the writers remembered from season one, that the psychic told Claire that things would be "bad" if anyone else raised her child. He was talking about the adoptive parents, but I assume that included Kate. Has that been dropped, or will it play out somehow. They can't really make every idle word uttered by every character a crucial plot element, and this was some time ago, and never mentioned again, not even in the "previously on lost" segments, so I was wondering if it was still a valid plot-point.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

He said her child shouldn't be raised by...another? An Other?


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

To those of you who corrected me on the timeline of Ben's teleportation from the island to Tunisia, thanks! It's amazing to me how much details are in this show and how they're doing a great job in keeping all of this straight. I know when the show's over, I'm going to do a re-watch from the very beginning.



MonsterJoe said:


> I didn't enjoy this episode. It felt very disjointed and there were some very questionable production values even for a TV show.


Such as what? Please provide more details than just a vague comment that could mean anything.



Church AV Guy said:


> I wonder if the writers remembered from season one, that the psychic told Claire that things would be "bad" if anyone else raised her child. He was talking about the adoptive parents, but I assume that included Kate. Has that been dropped, or will it play out somehow. They can't really make every idle word uttered by every character a crucial plot element, and this was some time ago, and never mentioned again, not even in the "previously on lost" segments, so I was wondering if it was still a valid plot-point.


I believe it still is because the psychic and his encounter with Claire was mentioned during the pop-ups this year, so it's definitely still in play. We don't know why or how important Aaron is yet.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Church AV Guy said:


> I wonder if the writers remembered from season one, that the psychic told Claire that things would be "bad" if anyone else raised her child. He was talking about the adoptive parents, but I assume that included Kate. Has that been dropped, or will it play out somehow. They can't really make every idle word uttered by every character a crucial plot element, and this was some time ago, and never mentioned again, not even in the "previously on lost" segments, so I was wondering if it was still a valid plot-point.


I think this will turn out to be very crucial. There was a couple in LA waiting to adopt the baby. Weren't Kate and Jack in LA in the flash forwards??? Then Jack visits Hurley. Hurley says Charlie told him to tell Jack that he should not raise "him".


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> I won't catch up anytime soon, so I'd just like to say hi from page 9 (yes, with the most posts per page).


Hi.

Honestly, I had been looking for you to post and surprised not to see anything.

Glad you _appear _to be alive and well. But this is a Lost thread, so you never know.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jehma said:


> Harold Perrineau clarifies his comments


See now, that's the way I took it right from the start.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> Such as what? Please provide more details than just a vague comment that could mean anything.


The vagueness was intentional so as to avoid being ripped to shreds.

Bad blue screens on the raft...actually, there were bad blue screens in a few places, like the chopper too...but the raft was the worst.

Some strange graininess with Hurley on the chopper. It was only about 2 seconds, but it was enough to break the illusion.

Too many locations. Usually the show is so focused...and this one just felt like they tried to squeeze too much into the 2 hrs.

Ironically, the boat explosion didn't even register on my radar as bad. In retrospect though, ya...it was pretty bad.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

teknikel said:


> Just before Ben heads down to the donkey wheel, he tells Locke "I'm sorry I made your life so miserable".
> 
> Since Locke has pretty much enjoyed his time on the island, I think this means he has known all of Locke's life that he was "The Chosen One" and has done all he can to prevent Locke from getting to the island. Including bringing the man from Talahasee back into his life.


Yes, that was an interesting statement. And your theory fits.



newsposter said:


> also i asked a question about the cast a while back and none of the experts even responded so i felt kinda hurt.  I stay out of lost threads because they are deep and i prefer to just watch the show and take it for what it is. But coming in here just seems to be battles of what was intended and what wasnt. Which, in fairness, maybe what the creator wanted.


What was your question about the cast? I don't remember, and there's a good chance I don't know the answer anyway. But willing to try.

Lost threads are funny. They probably are the most enjoyable for people who like beating a point into the ground, down to the frozen part.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

My theory about the bad special effects...they probably didn't have time to make it any better. All of this stuff was produced and filmed post-strike I believe. So that only gave them X amount of time to come out with X amount of episodes.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> My theory about the bad special effects...they probably didn't have time to make it any better. All of this stuff was produced and filmed post-strike I believe. So that only gave them X amount of time to come out with X amount of episodes.


That may very well be part of it. I remember in one of the later podcasts, Cuse and Lindeloff were saying that they were in the middle of filming for the finale...and it was only a few weeks before the air date.


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## squigy0 (Mar 20, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> And there will be no more flash forwards or flashbacks, because they are caught up.


There absolutely will be! Not just because that's the formula of the show and we're all gonna start flipping out if they change it. But because we've got solid information up until the day of the Oceanic 6 press conference, then it's very spotty leading up to revealing Locke's death. Some unanswered questions that will be revealed by flashbacks no doubt:
1) What did Kate promise to Sawyer before he bailed?
2) What transpired to make Jack and Kate indifferent (at her trial) into lovers into complete disdain (hinting that this does have to do with Sawyer and/or the island)?
3) What happened on the island after the 6 left?
4) What happened to the people out in the raft now with no island to go to?
5) What are the properties of the island that make it do what it can do?

Not to mention the distinct possibility of flash forwards with the 6 going back to the island.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

newsposter said:


> also i asked a question about the cast a while back and none of the experts even responded so i felt kinda hurt.


Hurt? Man. With the Lost threads there's so much that goes on that sometimes I can barely read everything much less respond. What was your question?



hefe said:


> That may very well be part of it. I remember in one of the later podcasts, Cuse and Lindeloff were saying that they were in the middle of filming for the finale...and it was only a few weeks before the air date.


In their final podcast, which was a week or so before it aired, they said they were going to spend the upcoming weekend (that is, the weekend before the Thursday airing) editing it together. They were very strapped for time.

Greg


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

squigy0 said:


> There absolutely will be! Not just because that's the formula of the show and we're all gonna start flipping out if they change it. But because we've got solid information up until the day of the Oceanic 6 press conference, then it's very spotty leading up to revealing Locke's death. Some unanswered questions that will be revealed by flashbacks no doubt:
> 1) What did Kate promise to Sawyer before he bailed?
> 2) What transpired to make Jack and Kate indifferent (at her trial) into lovers into complete disdain (hinting that this does have to do with Sawyer and/or the island)?
> 3) What happened on the island after the 6 left?
> ...


6) What's Libby's story?


----------



## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> What was your question about the cast?


so what's the list of people who officially made it back and were on the news vs people who made it back and were in hiding

after seeing walt it made me realize i forgot that others may have made it back.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

newsposter said:


> so what's the list of people who officially made it back and were on the news vs people who made it back and were in hiding
> 
> after seeing walt it made me realize i forgot that others may have made it back.


You know I do remember you asking this, and I think it was even addressed at some point.

It also depends on what you count as "back". We've seen Others off-island quite a few times (Mr. Friendly, Richard Alpern). We've also seen those off-island who are dead or supposed dead (Christian Shepherd, Charlie Pace).

I think what it boils down to is the answer is "we don't know". I certainly don't know. I think when we see Ben off the island, he didn't "make it back", he was just always able to leave. Just not in the fashion that he left this time around. 

Greg


----------



## DLiquid (Sep 17, 2001)

MonsterJoe said:


> Some strange graininess with Hurley on the chopper. It was only about 2 seconds, but it was enough to break the illusion.


Yeah, that was weird. There was a similar graininess when Ben turned the donkey wheel (close-up on face), but there it seemed they were using it for a purpose.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He said her child shouldn't be raised by...another? An Other?


Ooo. Good catch there. I like it. I'm not sure I buy it, but I like the possibilities of what it implies. There are just SO many layers to this story.

It is good writing that has transformed Ben from someone we all hated, and wished would die, to someone we have sympathy for. The writing and the actor are very good.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Church AV Guy said:


> Ooo. Good catch there. I like it. I'm not sure I buy it, but I like the possibilities of what it implies. There are just SO many layers to this story.


And "Raised By Another" was the title of the 10th episode of season 1.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Makes for an interesting twist then, that Claire (or something resembling Claire) told Kate "don't you dare" bring Aaron back to the island. Gonna be hard to raise him if they aren't together. 

Course, if Kate leaves him behind, then Aaron will get raised by Another Another ...


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

newsposter said:


> so what's the list of people who officially made it back and were on the news vs people who made it back and were in hiding
> 
> after seeing walt it made me realize i forgot that others may have made it back.


If you're talking about 815 survivors, you haven't forgotten anyone. Michael and Walt were the only ones to leave the island (other than by dying) and make it back home, until the Oceanic-6. (Sawyer and Jin were on the raft with Michael and Walt at the end of S1, but they didn't get very far. Of course, neither did Michael and Walt at that point.)


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

jehma said:


> Harold Perrineau clarifies his comments


I guess Michael really did get blowed up. I was hoping Jack's dad had warned him with enough time to jump off the ship.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Chekhov's Gun.
> 
> "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
> 
> ...


Ok, I'm still behind but I'll take a shot at this.

They showed us a time traveling machine, yes, but then the reveal - the payoff - was that its use would be *trivial* compared to what was behind it. They even had Ben belittle it, calling them silly experiments, and matter-of-fact-ly(?) labeling it "time traveling bunnies".

What they did during the reveal was more interesting than just firing the gun.. They showed that what scientists has tapped into to "time travel bunnies" was actually part of a very old mechanism to send the entire "island" through time. That wheel probably just changed the distance between two plates or something, changing where the island should be.

Ok, I gotta go to work.. More when I catch up in a week. 

(p.s. Huge Chekov's(sp?) gun fan)


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Time traveling bunnies?


__
https://flic.kr/p/2546961328

We report, you decide


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I rewatched this last night with my wife (remember, she fell asleep originally).

Sayid comes to Hurley at the institute (not institution, it says that on the sign hehe) and tells him Bentham died. Listen to his tone of voice and the syllables stressed.

"_*They*_ say it was suicide." The tone indicates he's amused that it's been ruled suicide. We had this discussion before, I realize, but he obviously doesn't believe it was.

Greg


----------



## Dad (Oct 27, 2001)

wprager said:


> For those who think Jin is not dead, I re-watched the explosion. Just before the explosion, there is no-one on the deck. That is pretty much clear. Of course you can argue that it was just a scale model and they didn't have time/budget to CGI a few people running around on deck. Or it was supposed to indicate that everyone had gotten off the freighter. There also was no visible life-boats in the water surrounding the boat, and it was a fairly wide shot. Again, could be simple time/money budget restriction, or meant to indicate that all life-boats had already gotten off camera. There was also what looked like a wake from something moving off to the right of the freighter. Probably nothing, but wouldn't be a stretch to think that could be Jin swimming (furiously) away from the explosion.


I re-watched it and I thought that you could see two people on the ship, one near the middle and on near the stern. Could have been Jin...



Delta13 said:


> Makes for an interesting twist then, that Claire (or something resembling Claire) told Kate "don't you dare" bring Aaron back to the island. Gonna be hard to raise him if they aren't together.
> 
> Course, if Kate leaves him behind, then Aaron will get raised by Another Another ...


I was wondering if both sides (Widmore=bad, Ben/Jacob=Good) can send these "emissaries" and Clair was sent by the bad side to discourage Kate from going back with Aaron. Hence the lack of an accent, which I'm sure Claire did not have in that scene.

Edit: Okay, I see it was actually a dream and not a real "visit" so I retract the above postulation. Perhaps it was just Kate struggling with what was to come.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

philw1776 said:


> Time traveling bunnies?
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Sure, they are naked and in a compromising position, but maybe they were just spooning and not actually, you know.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Dad said:


> I re-watched it and I thought that you could see two people on the ship, one near the middle and on near the stern. Could have been Jin...


I know what you mean about the middle, but I think it was just a stationary post or something like that. I don't remember seeing anything near the stern. Great, now I have to watch it again. 

ETA: There were lots of people on board before the explosion, but nobody when it blew up. It would defy logic that everyone got off but Jin just stood there, given that he was the only one remaining (other than Michael) to know first-hand that he should be jumping.


----------



## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

OK, so Jeremy Bentham is dead, and his body has to be returned to the island - is this what happened with Christian Shepard? We've been led to believe that the plane crash happened because of Desmond not turning the key - or was possibly arranged to get Jack to the island to heal Ben - was the real purpose of the crash of Oceanic 815 to get Christian's body to the island? Had he been there before? Obviously he has some importance to the island, since he speaks for/appears for Jacob...

Another question - in a tropical climate, why did Halliwax have a parka in his locker? Had he been down to the donkey wheel before?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Am I the only one that didn't notice anything about Claire "losing her accent?"


----------



## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

jradford said:


> Am I the only one that didn't notice anything about Claire "losing her accent?"


It didn't bother me. I took it as the same transformation that EVERYONE goes thru when they get all ghosty on the Island.

Christian isn't a drunk any more.
Walt wasn't annoying.

That kind of thing.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Magister said:


> It didn't bother me. I took it as the same transformation that EVERYONE goes thru when they get all ghosty on the Island.
> 
> Christian isn't a drunk any more.
> Walt wasn't annoying.
> ...


Personally, I didn't notice that she sounded different at all.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jradford said:


> Personally, I didn't notice that she sounded different at all.


Watch it again. It was more noticeable with Claire because we know the actress has an accent to begin with, and has never spoken WITHOUT one in the series before. So when she says, "don't you darrrrrrre" it's jarring. She would normally say "don't you daaaaahhhh".

Greg


----------



## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

jradford said:


> Personally, I didn't notice that she sounded different at all.


Don't feel bad. I didn't notice that either.

Not saying she didn't sound different, just that I didn't notice it.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jradford said:


> Am I the only one that didn't notice anything about Claire "losing her accent?"


I didn't notice.


----------



## teamzissou (Oct 18, 2006)

i'm used to tuning out claire whenever she talks, so now that she's dead or in limbo or whatever (and we're supposed to care), it's tough to break the habit.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

stevieleej said:


> Where's jkeegan?





mqpickles said:


> Hi.
> 
> Honestly, I had been looking for you to post and surprised not to see anything.
> 
> Glad you _appear _to be alive and well. But this is a Lost thread, so you never know.


Woohoo, finally caught up!!!

When I do the rewatch in a few days (still haven't yet, except a few scenes), I'll post my thoughts. It'll be a long seven months..


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

gchance said:


> Watch it again. It was more noticeable with Claire because we know the actress has an accent to begin with, and has never spoken WITHOUT one in the series before. So when she says, "don't you darrrrrrre" it's jarring. She would normally say "don't you daaaaahhhh".
> 
> Greg


I'll listen again, but I just took that as her saying it a lot angrier.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

smickola said:


> Another question - in a tropical climate, why did Halliwax have a parka in his locker? Had he been down to the donkey wheel before?


Good question. I assumed that the "others" used the donkey wheel, but Dharma didn't know how to use it. Ben poo pooed them like that was the case. The others could have put the parka there later after Dharma was gone, but Dharma did have polar bears on the island. Did they bring them in the old fashioned way--on a submarine? Then there's the question mentioned before--who went down the hole with the polar bear and taught it to turn the wheel? 

I didn't notice Claire's accent or lack thereof either. When I listened for it I still wasn't sure if it was on purpose or just because of the way she said "don't you dare"


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

OK, so assuming this wasn't a goof by the writing team, why was there a parka at the Orchid station, when the tunnel to the cold place was not accessible without blowing up the time traveling bunny machine?

Well, Halliwax did say that the station was next to a pocket of exotic matter, exhibiting negative energy characteristics (which, we are assuming, is what is causing the cold). So it's possible that the donkey wheel room is not the only place where it gets cold. We just haven't seen it yet.

I'm having a bit of a problem with the polar bears. The remains of the one found in the desert by Charlotte had a Dharma collar. So we are pretty sure that this was one of the polar bears that Dharma was using for their experiments. I don't really care how they got there -- as far as I know Dharma brought them to study the effects of a change in habitat on their behavior. Point is this was one of the "Dharma bears" due to the presence of the collar.

We are also assuming that the bear ended up in the desert, in the past during a previous time that the Island was moved -- that would mean the bear was just wondering about out of its cage, which is consistent with this happening *after* The Purge. But if the last time the Island was moved was *before* Dharma got there (as evidenced by the access tunnel to the wheel being behind the time traveling bunny machine) then how did the bear end up in the desert?

Even if the bear was being used to push the wheel, so being in the wrong place at the wrong time was not just circumstance, how could a bear wearing a Dharma collar be on the Island before Dharma go there and built the Orchid station, thereby obstructing the access tunnel?

Of course with time travel it is entirely possible that the polar bear whose remains were found by Charlotte has not yet left the Island. Perhaps, before the series is over, we will get to see a polar bear, hooked up to a harness to turn the wheel one last time before the series is finished.


----------



## catcard (Mar 2, 2001)

The donkey wheel is NOT necessary for the time travel of the polar bear. The room that Ben filled with metal was the time travel place so a polar bear could have been put in there then sent to the desert. That little room was using whatever "magical" powers that were coming from the donkey wheel area. That is why Ben blew up the time travel room to get into the donkey wheel place.

The donkey wheel is just to move the island - the time travel happens regardless of moving the island.

Having the coat in there just means that they were able to time travel to places that were cold.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I heard some alarm beeping this morning and I remembered season two, and the countdown clock.. So much has happened recently, that I'd almost forgotten about that.. (obviously I hadn't, and I'd be able to recall any detail, but I hadn't _thought_ about it recently).

I wonder what it'll be like to rewatch the entire series when it's all done.. (Laurie and I won't be doing that before it's done, since we already rewatch the previous season before a new season airs, so we don't want to rewatch early stuff 6 times over)..


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

catcard said:


> The donkey wheel is NOT necessary for the time travel of the polar bear. The room that Ben filled with metal was the time travel place so a polar bear could have been put in there then sent to the desert. That little room was using whatever "magical" powers that were coming from the donkey wheel area. That is why Ben blew up the time travel room to get into the donkey wheel place.
> 
> The donkey wheel is just to move the island - the time travel happens regardless of moving the island.
> 
> Having the coat in there just means that they were able to time travel to places that were cold.


That was for bunnies. I doubt they could fit a polar bear in there. Plus the travel time was too short (100 ms) and int he wrong direction. Of course if that was just a prototype ...

Seriously, though, Ben ended up in a place similar to where Charlotte found the polar bear remains. I don't think that was a coincidence.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

catcard said:


> The donkey wheel is NOT necessary for the time travel of the polar bear. The room that Ben filled with metal was the time travel place so a polar bear could have been put in there then sent to the desert. That little room was using whatever "magical" powers that were coming from the donkey wheel area. That is why Ben blew up the time travel room to get into the donkey wheel place.
> 
> The donkey wheel is just to move the island - the time travel happens regardless of moving the island.
> 
> Having the coat in there just means that they were able to time travel to places that were cold.


I don't think so. From the Orchid orientation video, and the outtakes available on YouTube, it doesn't appear that Dharma was very adept at actually transporting objects very far into either time or space. They were working with milliseconds. In addition, I think The Vault was just for time displacement, not for changing physical location as well. We know that the "exotic matter" has the capability to produce those effects, but from the looks of the Dharma video, and Ben's disdain for their piddly experiments, I don't think they ever tapped into the full power available.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

smickola said:


> Another question - in a tropical climate, why did Halliwax have a parka in his locker? Had he been down to the donkey wheel before?


Halliwax was wearing the parka in the orientation video, wasn't he?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> Halliwax was wearing the parka in the orientation video, wasn't he?


It had his name on it.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Maybe Halliwax's boss said "It'll be a cold day in Hell when you get that time travel thing to work!" And Halliwax, being a confident guy, had a parka ordered from Dharma Supply made up with his name on it just for the occasion. That guy! Always pulling tricks like that, and all of his little aliases!

His boss however, was not amused. Spending in excess of one's Dharma Budget Authority was a high crime indeed, and Halliwax paid an arm and a leg for the transgression.

Though he successfully appealed the leg part of the punishment ...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

In the youtube video they sent a bunny 20 seconds into the past.

They're talking about milliseconds in the final video as a safety precaution, I think.. No chance that after sending a bunny 30 seconds into the future, that someone will open the chamber where it's set to appear and put their hand in there to collide with the arriving bunny, etc. Far less chance for paradox.

The youtube version *mentioned* elaborate safety measures. And when the rabbit arrived unexpectedly, everyone was quite scared - they clearly thought that was dangerous.

Plus, the earth moves (and spins). Maybe within a milliseconds the earth doesn't spin more than a few feet (someone do the math?) and the rabbit ends up appearing in the other side of the chamber. If they sent it 12 hours away, though, it'd end up on the other side of the planet...


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

(I also have thought, by the way, that they talked about milliseconds to distract people from casually realizing that for the next year or so (from then), no matter WHERE on earth anyone looks for Ben, they won't find him. He won't EXIST again until 2005, in that desert. I think the same is true for the island - it doesn't exist after we saw it disappear, for a while at least.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Plus, the earth moves (and spins). Maybe within a milliseconds the earth doesn't spin more than a few feet (someone do the math?)


Relative to what? Are you considering the solar system moving within the galaxy and the expansion of the Universe?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

ct1 said:


> Relative to what? Are you considering the solar system moving within the galaxy and the expansion of the Universe?


Nope, because that'd make for an impossible story.. Let's go with what we've seen in the writer's version of everything.. They're not having the polar bear appear in the vaccum of space where earth was 10 days ago, they're having it appear on earth.. So don't even take into account the motion around the sun..

If the earth is 8000 miles in diameter (1/2 assed guess from grammar school eons ago), the circumfrence is 2*3.14159*4000 miles.. Divide that by 24 then 60 then 60 and that's how many miles per second. It's 1:45am and I'm typing on an iPhone.. Jeff sleep now, math later.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I thought the earth was about 25k miles at the equator......FYP.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> In the youtube video they sent a bunny 20 seconds into the past.
> 
> They're talking about milliseconds in the final video as a safety precaution, I think.. No chance that after sending a bunny 30 seconds into the future, that someone will open the chamber where it's set to appear and put their hand in there to collide with the arriving bunny, etc. Far less chance for paradox.
> 
> ...


Roughly 50 yards in 100 ms, but that's at the equator. It's slower where they were, but still.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

stevieleej said:


> I didn't notice it either.
> 
> I just re-watched and to me it's very clear that she doesn't have an accent. It even seems like she was carefully saying the words so that no accent was present.
> 
> From memory, I believe Charlie clearly had an accent when he appeared to Hurley.


I listened again. Her 1st line, I hear the accent. The 2nd line, I see what people are saying, but I'm still not sure it's on purpose. Maybe Claire didn't have an accent because it was Kate's dream?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jradford said:


> I listened again. Her 1st line, I hear the accent. The 2nd line, I see what people are saying, but I'm still not sure it's on purpose. Maybe Claire didn't have an accent because it was Kate's dream?


Why would an Australian accent who's never spoken with an American accent on this tv show suddenly use one? I'd understand it if she was using an American accent and accidentally slipped to her natural one (like Julian McMahon on Nip/Tuck).

Greg


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

gchance said:


> Why would an Australian accent who's never spoken with an American accent on this tv show suddenly use one? I'd understand it if she was using an American accent and accidentally slipped to her natural one (like Julian McMahon on Nip/Tuck).
> 
> Greg


Let me rephrase: I don't think it was an intentional american accent. I think the anger with which she was trying to say it made it sound American.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Oh, well, at least we're not arguing about what she said or who she said it about


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> Oh, well, at least we're not arguing about what she said or who she said it about


I suppose there would be a reasonable argument to be had over who she was when she was saying it...


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suppose there would be a reasonable argument to be had over who she was when she was saying it...


True. I seem to remember this was briefly brought up. It might even have been me 

If Ben is one of the good guys and is trying to bring every one back (including Aaron), then whoever is trying to prevent this from happening is one of the bad guys. Or they know something that Ben doesn't (but in that case, why not go straight to Ben?)

Edit: Is it January yet?


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

It's taken me over a week to finally read all these pages and I can't even remember what I wanted to comment on. I have various post-its strewn about at home and at work.. 

But I did want to say, i just gave in and bought the 3 seasons on DVD. Not enough to make it through January (err, December, Season 4 comes out Dec. 9th - I think i'll be ready to rewatch by then),... but I know what i'm doing all summer.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

At the rate we're going, this thread's going to be closed and locked well before January rolls around...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Cindy1230 said:


> It's taken me over a week to finally read all these pages and I can't even remember what I wanted to comment on. I have various post-its strewn about at home and at work..


This is the perfect situation for the multiquote feature. Just click the "Multiquote" button in the lower right corner of the post you wish to respond to, and then keep on reading. When you get to the end of the thread, simply click "Post Reply" and every post for which you clicked "Multiquote" will be properly formatted in your reply message. You then just need to go through and fill in your comments to each post (or delete the quote if the reply you wanted to give has already been given).


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> This is the perfect situation for the multiquote feature. Just click the "Multiquote" button in the lower right corner of the post you wish to respond to, and then keep on reading. When you get to the end of the thread, simply click "Post Reply" and every post for which you clicked "Multiquote" will be properly formatted in your reply message. You then just need to go through and fill in your comments to each post (or delete the quote if the reply you wanted to give has already been given).


But that won't work if it's taken you a week to read through all the replies if you had to sit down and read through multiple sessions.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> But that won't work if it's taken you a week to read through all the replies if you had to sit down and read through multiple sessions.


Depends on whether you can keep the tab open on your browser. Provided you don't have to shut your computer down very often, and can do your other websurfing in another tab/browser, it would be trivial to keep it open for several days/weeks and then simply hit "Post Reply" when you get to the end.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> Maybe Halliwax's boss said "It'll be a cold day in Hell when you get that time travel thing to work!" And Halliwax, being a confident guy, had a parka ordered from Dharma Supply made up with his name on it just for the occasion. That guy! Always pulling tricks like that, and all of his little aliases!
> 
> His boss however, was not amused. Spending in excess of one's Dharma Budget Authority was a high crime indeed, and Halliwax paid an arm and a leg for the transgression.
> 
> Though he successfully appealed the leg part of the punishment ...


nice work, Delta.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Depends on whether you can keep the tab open on your browser. Provided you don't have to shut your computer down very often, and can do your other websurfing in another tab/browser, it would be trivial to keep it open for several days/weeks and then simply hit "Post Reply" when you get to the end.


But in the case of LOST threads, if it took you that long to get through it without refreshing your browser there could be a couple of dozen more posts that you didn't read before replying 

Plus I'll often switch between home pc and work pc.

Sometimes LOST threads are just too fast paced. 

At least with the season finale you have until January to get caught up.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> But in the case of LOST threads, if it took you that long to get through it without refreshing your browser there could be a couple of dozen more posts that you didn't read before replying


Clicking "Multiquote" survives a refresh.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I just got an email from Octagon Global Recruiting. Here it is.


Octagon Global Recruiting said:


> Octagon Global Recruiting, on behalf of the Dharma Initiative, would like to thank you for registering your expression of interest in our latest volunteer recruitment drive.
> 
> We will be launching in San Diego on July 24th at Comic-Con International offering select registrants the opportunity to take an exciting aptitude test that will give applicants the chance to demonstrate their unique talents.
> 
> ...


----------



## smj0724 (Oct 1, 2004)

Go ahead and look at the source code of that email. In the meta tags you will find a reference to "March has 32 Days". A quick google search shows this website http://www.mysterytales40.com/march...ry-from-the-mystery-tales-40-comic-book-96555 which has a scanned image of the last story in a comic series that appeared on an episode of the show. Reading the story, I couldn't find any clues, but since the "recruitment drive" is taking place at Comic-Con, I am assuming there will be additional clues there. Anyone going to be around to check it out?


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I started a thread in the Happy Hour. If we're going to be playing the game, I think there should probably be a separate thread -- either in that area of this area.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I started a thread in the Happy Hour. If we're going to be playing the game, I think there should probably be a separate thread -- either in that area of this area.


Game=Fun House.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

DancnDude said:


> I just got an email from Octagon Global Recruiting. Here it is.


Yeah, I got it too. I'll be one of those not making Comic-Con. 

Greg


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I started a thread in the Happy Hour. If we're going to be playing the game, I think there should probably be a separate thread -- either in that area of this area.


link


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

See, I know how to use multiquote DevDog 



unicorngoddess said:


> But that won't work if it's taken you a week to read through all the replies if you had to sit down and read through multiple sessions.


Exactly what happened.



Cindy1230 said:


> But I did want to say, i just gave in and bought the 3 seasons on DVD,... I know what i'm doing all summer.


Boy was I optimistic about it taking all summer. It's been 3 weeks and we are already at the end of Season 3. (There was 1 saturday where we watched 8 eps). I've accumulated a few questions on various episodes. I didn't feel like digging deep through the old threads, is it cool to start a 'LOST - WHOLE SERIES' thread, since it isnt necessarily now playing. If anyone wants to go ahead, go for it, but I may rewatch season 4 online first to see if any of my questions get answered. 
But I thought a new thread might be a good idea. It's a long time till January.

It is really fun to watch again knowing what you know now. Its a whole new experience. You dont feel as angry or cheated like the first time around.


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