# So What do think abou the HR20?



## JoeAverage (Aug 20, 2007)

Okay, I am that straight C average person when it comes to HD TIVO. I do know I love the TIVO format, I love the HD channels, I am so-so about Direct- TV, and I can not stand Comcast. I have an old HR10-250 and I know it is about to go the way of the dodo bird in 2008. Looks like I am going to have to upgrade to the HR20. So to the die hard TIVO fans out there, how do you like the HR20 so far? Are there any options to Having my Cake and eating it too?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Besure to also check out the main discussion forum for the HR20:
www.dbstalk.com

Sure... you can keep your HR10-250 active as well as adding an HR20.
That way for everything you have access to (OTA-HD, the remaining HD SAT channels till they are converted, and SD), on your HR10-250

All the new content, on the HR20.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

JoeAverage said:


> Okay, I am that straight C average person when it comes to HD TIVO. I do know I love the TIVO format, I love the HD channels, I am so-so about Direct- TV, and I can not stand Comcast. I have an old HR10-250 and I know it is about to go the way of the dodo bird in 2008. Looks like I am going to have to upgrade to the HR20. So to the die hard TIVO fans out there, how do you like the HR20 so far? Are there any options to Having my Cake and eating it too?


You'll get a lot of opinions about the HR20 - all the way from people saying it's better then Tivo (aren't many of those) to those Tivo users who have given up on it and glad they kept their DTivo.

The thing that impresses me the most is that there is not a lot of raving about the HR20, especially from the Tivo users. In fact, the opinion I see most is that it's ok, but it isn't a Tivo - or if DirecTV came out with an mpeg4 HD Tivo (many of us are hoping for that kind of announcement once the new ownership takes over), they'd replace the HR20 with it.

Check out the dbstalk.com. That forum is great for getting more ideas about it.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Well, I've had mine for a few weeks and it's become unresponsive 3 times, forcing me to restart it. That doesn't make me too happy, especially since I've been having lockup problems with my HR10 since I finally went to 6.3x. Aside from that, it's not a bad DVR, but certainly not as user friendly in most respects as TiVo is. The lack of dual live buffers is inexcusable and it's skip to tick mark and skip to live TV features are a buggy mess. Plus, if I ever have to get rid of my HDTiVo, I will really miss the Suggestions feature. Also, if you want to pump any video out of it to remote 4:3 TV's in your house, you will have aspect ratio problems...


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

After one week of use, let me simply say it works just fine but it is a nuisance.


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## JoeAverage (Aug 20, 2007)

coachO said:


> After one week of use, let me simply say it works just fine but it is a nuisance.


Comcast is starting to look better and better. At least they support HD Tivo... right??


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

RS4 said:


> The thing that impresses me the most is that there is not a lot of raving about the HR20, especially from the Tivo users. In fact, the opinion I see most is that it's ok, but it isn't a Tivo - or if DirecTV came out with an mpeg4 HD Tivo (many of us are hoping for that kind of announcement once the new ownership takes over), they'd replace the HR20 with it.


That pretty much sums up my feelings. I got the HR10-250 when it first came out (who doesn't remember the frenzy involved with trying to get one of those??), and I'm still using it. I also have a couple of HR20s -- got the first one last November. I don't really have a problem with the HR20 -- it's easy enough to use and it's stable -- but the TiVo just feels "better" to me -- more "natural" to use if that makes any sense. And the SCANNING on the HD TiVo blows the HR20 away -- much, much easier and more responsive. Anyone that has ever tried to use the "skip to tick" function on the HR20 knows what I'm talking about -- it works, but it's like walking up a flight of stairs with a couple of cinder blocks around your ankles.

But, I use it, because it gives me the channels I want. If they ever came out with an MPEG-4 DirecTiVo though, I'd be all over it.


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## jbrasure (Jan 1, 2007)

I had the HR20 for a few months. I'll just sum up by saying that my blood pressure dropped when I finally got rid of it. The Tivo is much easier to use.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

I'll probably get flamed for saying something nice about the HR20 like usual, but here goes - I've had my HR20 since October of 2006 and I'm really happy with it. It had software issues in the beginning but it's been rock solid for me since April or so.

I'm sure someone will jump in and say - That's not what I've heard !!, HR20 talk is not allowed here !!, This is a TiVo DVR forum !, not a DIRECTV DVR forum ! Does that about cover it guys ? Maybe throw in a - DIRECTV DVRs SUCK !! for good measure.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

I'm not going to say anything about it not being a TiVo.

Who cares, when the content being recorded is low-quality over-compressed HD-lite garbage?


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> Be sure to also check out ...


That was a fair and honest post.


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## DavidO (Sep 7, 2000)

JoeAverage said:


> Comcast is starting to look better and better. At least they support HD Tivo... right??


If Comcast, or any other cable TV provider, adds new channels using SDV, Tivo HD won't get them.


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## jennifer (Dec 2, 2001)

I'm learning to like it. It's tough for me to go between the two softwares, as I still have an HR10 in the bedroom. 

I do like the fact that recording a show is so simple with the HR20. It doesn't interrupt what I'm doing and is so quick.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

DavidO said:


> If Comcast, or any other cable TV provider, adds new channels using SDV, Tivo HD won't get them.


True but Comcast is coming out with their own DVR with TiVo software so I imagine if they do go to SDV they will also have an HD DVR with TiVo software available for it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

RS4 said:


> You'll get a lot of opinions about the HR20 - all the way from people saying it's better then Tivo (aren't many of those) to those Tivo users who have given up on it and glad they kept their DTivo.


Aren't many of the latter, either. Probably fewer.

But at least you at last admitting that there are those who like the HR20.

Little steps, little steps.


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## CessnaDriver (Oct 25, 2003)

RS4 said:


> The thing that impresses me the most is that there is not a lot of raving about the HR20, especially from the Tivo users. it.


That's because we aren't allowed to on here, but I will do it now anyway.

I LOVE MY HR20! I am a raving fan.


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## flynxx (Mar 9, 2001)

In the 10 days I've had mine, I personally like them.

Just a matter of getting used to it.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

On a scale of 1-10 I'd give it about a 6. Little annoying nuances aside, if it would just get through a full damn month without missing/screwing up a recording I could maybe get behind it. But it's been consistantly inconsistant.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

The look and feel of the HR 20 is fine...different from Tivo, but fine. 

I don't like the menu set-ups and how many menu clicks it takes me to get to the scheduler/to-do list. 

I don't like that you have to have season passes set up to record ALL programs (new or re-run) because you never know if the guide will properly lable the new shows. 

I love seeing how much space I have left to record with. 

I HATE not having a true dual buffer. HATE HATE HATE   

I love knowing I will get a ton of new HD channels in the next month that I wouldn't with Comcast. 

I hate wondering if the scheduler is going to screw up my recordings. I never worry about that with Tivo...ever.

I love the picture in channel guide feature.

I hate that its not Tivo.


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## marvod (Jan 7, 2000)

On a scale of 1-10 I'd give the HR20 a 8. All 3 of mine have worked perfectly out of the box. Everything works as advertised and I will be receiving the new MPEG4 channels.

Do I miss my HR10's? Not really. I had to hack the hell out of it to do some of the things the HR20 does out of the box.

Would I go back if Tivo and Directv announced and updated MPEG4 box? Only if I can get it free like I did the HR20's. Yup thats right. Didn't pay a dime. Kinda nice since I got so screwed on the 3 HR10's I had.

So jump in the waters great..


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## lancelot (Jul 8, 2006)

I don't think the HR20 is built as well as the HR10. My HR20s make noise like a typewriter. The HR10 is quiet and has more of the features I like--suggestions, wish list, etc.

If it wasn't for MPEG IV compatibility, I would never have consiered the HR20. I've suffered through lock ups, missed recordings, etc. Admittedly, lately, the software upgrades have improved things signficantly.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

My HR20 is dead silent (other than the gentle whir of the disk.) You're hearing hard disk seek noise which can vary among drives.


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## stevmead (Oct 21, 2002)

Keep your HR10 until:
1. Quality of D's HD content improves (maybe 2015!) 
2. HR20 includes dual buffers (again, maybe 2015)

I'm in no rush to get more garbage. Can't wait to see the posts complaining about how poor the new HD channels are.


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## CosmoKramer (Jan 23, 2007)

stevmead said:


> Keep your HR10 until:
> 1. Quality of D's HD content improves (maybe 2015!)
> 2. HR20 includes dual buffers (again, maybe 2015)
> 
> I'm in no rush to get more garbage. Can't wait to see the posts complaining about how poor the new HD channels are.


+1


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## tfederov (Jul 6, 2003)

Love mine. All four are up, running, and networked so I can stream my pics and music from my PC to them. I've had no issues in almost a year.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

stevmead said:


> 2. HR20 includes dual buffers (again, maybe 2015)


You are optomistic


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

kmill14 said:


> I don't like the menu set-ups and how many menu clicks it takes me to get to the scheduler/to-do list.


To get to todo list on Tivo. Shortest method: Two clicks (Menu and 2).

To get to todo list on HR20. Shortest method: Two clicks (List and Yellow).

Just thought you'd like to know.


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## billyd88 (Aug 6, 2003)

tfederov said:


> Love mine. All four are up, running, and networked so I can stream my pics and music from my PC to them. I've had no issues in almost a year.


While I only have two of them right now. I can also say that they are issue free!


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Mine record and play back shows just like my Tivo's did. I'm not sure what there is to not like about them.


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## JMikeD (Jun 10, 2002)

The only thing I dislike about the HR20 is that it has to search one item at a time instead of displaying all the items on the Wishlist at the same time as the Tivo does. Otherwise, it's a wash (to me).


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> You are optomistic


If that's the case, then the people at DirecTV are deaf idiots.

:down:


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## stivovance (Feb 12, 2003)

It took 10 to get 3 activated and up and running.

So far, I've had 1 missed recording in about a month of use. Up until recently, haven't had that issue with my hr10 running 6.3c. This will become a more pressing issue when the hr20 won't have a backup that can record mpeg4 programming. For now, have the hr10 and dsr704 backing each other up.

Yes, menus are different, nothing shocking there.

I wish there was a way to turn off the in menu video. The whole point of having a dvr is that I can watch something later. I know I'm not alone in the fact come fall tv season, you turn on the tv and want to start watching a show that's recorded, only to find out who the killer is or the big plot reveal for the week because of this gem of a feature, it's going to make me more than angry. Yes, it's neat, but the novelty wore off after about 10 mins of thinking about how it's going to affect my tv watching. So far, I've programmed my harmony 880 to auto pause, list and mute (just in case it misses those first 2 commands) in hopes that it doesn't ruin the whole point of recording a show to watch and enjoy later. However, with the limit of no in activity macros, it's only limited to turning on the tv the first time. Once you are done with a show, it's still hard to have to remember to hit the pause button before going to your now showing list.

dual buffers, don't see the argument here, record 2 shows and move on. I use my dvr as just that, a dvr about 99.9% of the time so the live tv thing I've gotten over about 6 years ago.

I do enjoy the 30 sec skip button, I've come to appreciate it.

How it handles getting to the end of a recording with the quick forward button, that needs serious overhauling. Even when you "get" to the end of a recording, it still plays so you still have to hit it again before you get the delete/keep message.

I have watched all but 1 show in the past month on the hr20, sort of a tivo-deprogramming if you will to get ready for the fall season. The SD and HD tivos are backups for now. I don't fully trust the HR20 to record everything at this point, BUT I also can't count on the HR10's either with the wacky guide data issues (directv's doing) so I'm hoping it gets as stable and reliable as the HR10 has been for the past 2 years.

The one unexpected benefit was SD shows look much better, which makes the compression issues a bit more tolerable.

I enjoy the consistent quickness of the unit and menu performance.

Overall, I'd give it a B+. If (for me) the in menu video could get turned off, just a slightly more fluid, user friendly menu system and reliability of recordings, I'd be very pleased.


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## Directvlover (Apr 12, 2004)

I was a little hesitant at first to get the HR20 because i loved the tivo so much...but after having had it for awhile, i got to admit...it's fine. Sure tivo makes everything look and feel a little prettier, plus they have those little familiar sounds that it makes when you navigate through it that the HR20 is missing, but really as far as functionality goes..it's fine...in fact it's a little faster. For example when you want to set up a recording, you just press record and it's done....with the tivo I would press record and always have to wait sometimes up to 20 or so seconds for it to finally confirm.

Bottom line...i've gotten used to the HR20, it's easy to navigate, it does the job....i still have my HR10-250 Tivo hooked up in another room so i'm using both still. But i'd say i almost like the HR20 a little better. And since it's going to get me tons more HD channels very soon...i love it even more.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

Piece of crap.

Not cause I am a Tivo guy, It's cause the programmers or whoever wrote the specs for the programmer to code who has no clue on what Users Friendly is all about.

My issues with it:

Had it for a month, already resets 6 times. Numerous empty recordings. Video Drop Outs. Networking issue (still had not time to dig into it yet, plus it's not worth it for me yet).

I am on a list of recordings and in a folder of 10 items, check the last one, repeat, delete, then had to go thru whole nine yard of list, folder, down to the bottom to check the next one.

eSata is a joke. What kind of a programmer to enble the feature to "TOTALLY REPLACE THE INTERNAL HARDDISK?"

Unfortunately, I have to take one for: New Channels and more tuner to record (too many conflicts now on my HR10).


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

AVPhan said:


> I am on a list of recordings and in a folder of 10 items, check the last one, repeat, delete, then had to go thru whole nine yard of list, folder, down to the bottom to check the next one.


Just select the folder and press the dash key to delete the whole folder



> eSata is a joke. What kind of a programmer to enble the feature to "TOTALLY REPLACE THE INTERNAL HARDDISK?"


I like it that way, and so do those who keep multiple disks on hand and swap them in as needed. With the TiVo way, if the external disk is removed, you're hosed until it's replaced and you can't add a different disk. I'll agree that there are disadvantages too, but overall I prefer the DirecTV approach.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

stevel said:


> Just select the folder and press the dash key to delete the whole folder.


I don't want to delete the whole folder yet. Just one and then go to next one to watch.



stevel said:


> I like it that way, and so do those who keep multiple disks on hand and swap them in as needed. With the TiVo way, if the external disk is removed, you're hosed until it's replaced and you can't add a different disk. I'll agree that there are disadvantages too, but overall I prefer the DirecTV approach.


I understand it's by opinion, but based on mine, it should be just like an external disk to a computer, you add it on, it would only store data (recording). If filled up, buy a new one, and plug it in. Later when you want to watch things on it, plug it back in.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Well, TiVo's doesn't work that way on the S3.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

AVPhan said:


> I don't want to delete the whole folder yet. Just one and then go to next one to watch.


Coming soon to a national release is the ability to just hit the red button to delete something in the list.

There is also group play, where you can hit play on the folder and it will remember what you watched and where you were next time you go in.

Anyway, I don't understand what you were saying. Deleting single items out of the folder is easy.



AVPhan said:


> I understand it's by opinion, but based on mine, it should be just like an external disk to a computer, you add it on, it would only store data (recording). If filled up, buy a new one, and plug it in. Later when you want to watch things on it, plug it back in.


The reason it is done that way is because you could distribute programming all over the place. This is the new industry standard for add-on disks. Not just a D* thing.

Although as far as I can tell, you can do exactly what you are saying. The only thing that won't work is that it will not store on the internal disk as well as the external. You can fill up a disk, swap out a new one and go back to the old one later. I just don't think it is hot swap.

BTW, you should go to www.dbstalk.com. I think you could learn a few tricks.


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## Martyp (Jan 6, 2004)

Well have the new hd dvr here along with the dirctv dvr with tivo. I have both of them hooked up and miss the down arrow to switch tuners . Some days when I am just laying around around on a satruday it as nice to sat but on discovery and use the other tuner to flip channels. Then just flop back and forth between two shows.

But like being able to record 4 shows at a time now and the ablity to record ove the air hd wich is more then are directv . Which is missing channel 9 hd or 9.1 as it is over the air


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## Cubfan (Aug 19, 2000)

No issues here. Don't have "bloops" and the antenna guy. 

Have a fast menu and guide, reliable recordings, no bugs or reboots (so far). Wish I could say the same about my recent experience with the DirecTivo.

Oh, and now I have my "local" channels all in HD, including Cubs games.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

You have local channels in semi-HD, but not all of them.

I have a $2 antenna from 1964 that gets the same stuff, but in better quality.


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## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Arcady said:


> You have local channels in semi-HD, but not all of them.
> 
> I have a $2 antenna from 1964 that gets the same stuff, but in better quality.


I'll bet you couldn't tell the difference between your $2 OTA and D* M4 HD. I can't.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Arcady said:


> You have local channels in semi-HD, but not all of them.
> 
> I have a $2 antenna from 1964 that gets the same stuff, but in better quality.


I don't see an MPEG4 capable box in your sig. How do you know what the MPEG4 quality is or isn't? Though it doesn't stop you from chiming in on this every time you get a chance?


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## madbeachcat (Jan 31, 2002)

Just have to throw my 2 cents in. I had the HR10-250 for about a year and a half, and loved it. But when we moved last year, I decided to go with the HR20. 

It's definitely different, but IMHO it is a little bit better. I do miss DLB, but I love having a 90 min buffer. It has never missed a recording. ( The only problem I have had is that sometimes it records shows from a series link that it should not record. Messed up guide data? )

No cute little sounds, but I can live with that. Number one on my list of things I like though is the speed. I always hated how my Tivo would take so long to do anything. The HR20 just zips through tasks that would render my Tivo useless for 2 or 3 minutes.

Plus, a big driver for the change for me was HD locals and now all of the new channels upcoming. If the interface is the most important thing for you, the by all means stay with Dtivo and hope for a new MPEG4 DTivo, but if content is what's important to you consider the HR20.


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## gsslug (Jan 1, 2003)

I've had mine a few weeks now. I miss the ease of use of the TIVO interface. Ordering PPV movies is a pain unless I'm missing something. First you buy it and then you have to record it. Two separate procedures. No buy and record option like TIVO.

Making changes to "season passes" is more difficult. 

And then there is the occasional audio dropouts. If I was a new DVR user and never had a TIVO I probably would be happy. But while I've gotten use to it I miss my TIVO.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Note that with the HR20 and PPV, you don't pay for a PPV until you watch it. I am not sure about the buy/record thing since I have not done this myself, but I don't think it's that complicated.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

stevel said:


> Note that with the HR20 and PPV, you don't pay for a PPV until you watch it. I am not sure about the buy/record thing since I have not done this myself, but I don't think it's that complicated.


Right it's actually a better way to do PPV where you record it first then you can choose to watch it anytime and buy it only if you watch it.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

bigpuma said:


> Right it's actually a better way to do PPV where you record it first then you can choose to watch it anytime and buy it only if you watch it.


Really? This is news to me. Maybe I haven't bought a PPV on my HR20 yet. So I can record all the PPV movies for free but then I have to agree to pay for it if\when I watch it? Can I still watch it multiple times?


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> Really? This is news to me. Maybe I haven't bought a PPV on my HR20 yet. So I can record all the PPV movies for free but then I have to agree to pay for it if\when I watch it? Can I still watch it multiple times?


I believe so although they seem to have added an expiration date to the PPVs so you might have to watch it before the expiration date. I really haven't watched that many PPVs but being able to record them and not pay is nice so we always record a few things in case we decide to watch a movie sometime.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

HiDefGator said:


> Really? This is news to me. Maybe I haven't bought a PPV on my HR20 yet. So I can record all the PPV movies for free but then I have to agree to pay for it if\when I watch it? Can I still watch it multiple times?


After you paid for it you can watch it as many times as you want and keep it on your machine for as long as you want.
You have a choice of "buy" or "record" that may be confusing for some. 
If you "buy", the PPV channel opens up for 24 hrs, so you can schedule recording at any time you prefer or watch it right away (if movie will start in a few minutes, obviously, you don't want to watch from the middle of the movie).
If you select "record", then movie will record at scheduled time, but you will not be charged unless you select it to play and confirm that you want to pay for it.
It will sit on your DVR for 30 to 45 days and if you don't buy it - it will just erase after the set time. I record all the PPV that I potentially want to watch, but quite often I let it expire because by the time I ready to watch it, it already scheduled to be on HBO or Starz within few weeks.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

samo said:


> After you paid for it you can watch it as many times as you want and keep it on your machine for as long as you want.
> You have a choice of "buy" or "record" that may be confusing for some.
> If you "buy", the PPV channel opens up for 24 hrs, so you can schedule recording at any time you prefer or watch it right away (if movie will start in a few minutes, obviously, you don't want to watch from the middle of the movie).
> If you select "record", then movie will record at scheduled time, but you will not be charged unless you select it to play and confirm that you want to pay for it.
> It will sit on your DVR for 30 to 45 days and if you don't buy it - it will just erase after the set time. I record all the PPV that I potentially want to watch, but quite often I let it expire because by the time I ready to watch it, it already scheduled to be on HBO or Starz within few weeks.


Thanks for the info. I wasn't sure if the expiration dates were just until you purchased the PPV. It's good to know you can keep it after you buy it. I do like this way of implementing PPVs and I am much more likely to buy them in the future.


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## pcdoc (Feb 8, 2004)

As most others, I am considering the switch to the HR20. I have 5 DVR's and 1 receiver with DirecTV including 2 HR10's. I am also considering going to FIOS when it is available in my area, but in order to keep my family happy with 5 DVR's, I would have to make quite an initial investment to switch.

The only thing really holding me back is the picture quality of DirecTV. I have heard some mention the quality of HD in MPEG4 as compared to MPEG2, but I did not get a feeling for which one is better, or if there is a difference. So, to get to my question, is the HD MPEG4 picture better than what I am getting now in MPEG2 on my HR10s?

Lastly, does anyone know what the early termination fee for leaving D* is?

Thanks.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

pcdoc said:


> Lastly, does anyone know what the early termination fee for leaving D* is?
> 
> Thanks.


If I am not mistaken it is either 12.95 ro 13.95 a month for each month remaining on your commitment.


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## Cruzan (Dec 21, 2001)

Were any of you hr20 users heavy wishlist users on the Tivo? I am, and all I've been able to glean from the forums is that I would miss a lot on the HR20. What does that mean exactly?

For example, I have wishlists to pick up any HD tennis, HD SF movies, Simpsons reruns on any channel, any movie with Uma in it, and many more. How would this work on the HR 20?


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

I like the HR20. In my opinion, the speed and the sound (surround) are both better on the HR20.

I still have my HR10 as well, but since the auto correct out of fast forward showed up on the HR20, the HR10 has been getting less use. Full surround sound in the theater room is a big deal to me.

Remote booking is going to be awesome as well.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Cruzan said:


> , HD SF movies,


I give up. What is an HD SF movie?


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## guins (Oct 9, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> I give up. What is an HD SF movie?


my guess.....hi-def sci-fi.


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## eddieras99 (Sep 2, 2002)

Fahtrim said:


> I like the HR20. In my opinion, the speed and the sound (surround) are both better on the HR20.
> 
> I still have my HR10 as well, but since the auto correct out of fast forward showed up on the HR20, the HR10 has been getting less use. Full surround sound in the theater room is a big deal to me.
> 
> Remote booking is going to be awesome as well.


the HR10 outputs in dolby digital, but you're saying the sound on the hr20 is better than that of the hr10?? interesting,. anyone else find this?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

To me, the sound is the same. I don't notice a sound improvement on the HR20 vs. the HR10. I don't think there is one.


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## Cruzan (Dec 21, 2001)

guins said:


> my guess.....hi-def sci-fi.


Excellent guess.

So, any ex-Tivo wishlist users on their experiences with the HR20?


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

stevmead said:


> Keep your HR10 until:
> 1. Quality of D's HD content improves (maybe 2015!)
> 2. HR20 includes dual buffers (again, maybe 2015)
> 
> I'm in no rush to get more garbage. Can't wait to see the posts complaining about how poor the new HD channels are.


There again with the dual buffers! Am I the only one that thinks the dual buffers are woefully overrated? The vast majority of the times that I'm watching something, I've already got something recording on one tuner which makes the dual buffers useless. Unless, I guess, I'm recording many more shows than the typical user, which I seriously doubt.

I think this is another one of those red herrings - it isn't as a big a deal as many people make it out to be!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Cruzan said:


> Excellent guess.
> 
> So, any ex-Tivo wishlist users on their experiences with the HR20?


I haven't done this myself, but you can set up "autorecord" searches by person or keyword. Doesn't seem to work well with title. However, there's a very nasty bug across some types of DirecTV receiver, including the HR20, in that it doesn't know what channels you actually receive and, unlike the HR10, there's no way to tell it. So searches find shows that are on channels you don't get, making an autorecord search rather useless. This is supposed to be fixed, but when, I don't know.

If you don't want to autorecord but just see what matches, the HR20 saves the past few searches you did so you can rerun them.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

joelq said:


> There again with the dual buffers! Am I the only one that thinks the dual buffers are woefully overrated? The vast majority of the times that I'm watching something, I've already got something recording on one tuner which makes the dual buffers useless. Unless, I guess, I'm recording many more shows than the typical user, which I seriously doubt.
> 
> I think this is another one of those red herrings - it isn't as a big a deal as many people make it out to be!


Couldn't agree with you more. I doubt most people would even realize it was a feature if they didn't read this forum.


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## CosmoKramer (Jan 23, 2007)

joelq said:


> There again with the dual buffers! Am I the only one that thinks the dual buffers are woefully overrated? The vast majority of the times that I'm watching something, I've already got something recording on one tuner which makes the dual buffers useless. Unless, I guess, I'm recording many more shows than the typical user, which I seriously doubt.
> 
> I think this is another one of those red herrings - it isn't as a big a deal as many people make it out to be!


Yes, you are minority that thinks DLB is overrated. If you watched sports then you would see why it is important. The work around for the HR20 is a joke at best and is a oversight by D*.

Getting a free upgrade to the HR20 before football season starts and hope I do not pull my hair out over it!


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## Cubfan (Aug 19, 2000)

Not only is my HDTivo superior, so is my Sony Betamax. Too bad they were both ridiculously expensive and my Tivo will soon join the Beta in extinction. The channel guide on the Tivo will soon look like the Gamecube aisle at the video store when compared to the guide on my HR20.

Oh, the humanity!


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## stevmead (Oct 21, 2002)

CosmoKramer said:


> Yes, you are minority that thinks DLB is overrated. If you watched sports then you would see why it is important. The work around for the HR20 is a joke at best and is a oversight by D*.


+1


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

The one thing I will miss on the HR20 is the TiVo style guide. I much prefer it over the DirecTV grid style. But, then the guide really shouldn't be needed that often, should it? Since the HR20 is the only MPEG4 game in town, I'll learn to cope.


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

CosmoKramer said:


> Yes, you are minority that thinks DLB is overrated. If you watched sports then you would see why it is important. The work around for the HR20 is a joke at best and is a oversight by D*.
> 
> Getting a free upgrade to the HR20 before football season starts and hope I do not pull my hair out over it!


I understand that use case, and trust me, I do watch a lot of sports. I'm just saying that in practice, I rarely have both tuners available for the entire time I'm watching something.

I don't consider a feature beneficial if I have to work around my normal usage habits (i.e., stop a recording to free up a buffer, etc.) in order to use the feature.

Again, maybe I just have more recordings going on than most, but I doubt it.


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## Plamar (Oct 29, 2003)

Wait till you all see the VOD (Video on Demand). You will ditch your 10-250 like a dirty shirt! And the new HD channels.


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## timb2112 (Dec 2, 2005)

JoeAverage said:


> Okay, I am that straight C average person when it comes to HD TIVO. I do know I love the TIVO format, I love the HD channels, I am so-so about Direct- TV, and I can not stand Comcast. I have an old HR10-250 and I know it is about to go the way of the dodo bird in 2008. Looks like I am going to have to upgrade to the HR20. So to the die hard TIVO fans out there, how do you like the HR20 so far? Are there any options to Having my Cake and eating it too?


As a TiVo user for more than 2 years, I have to say THE HR20 RULES!!!

It's much faster, and the networking feature is awesome. I can listen to my entire music collection off my computer's hard drive through my surround system. I have the HR20 wired into my router and it interfaces with Windows Media Player 11 on my computer. Incredible! This alone in my opinion makes the switch worth it.

There are other small, little features that make it superior as well, but I don't feel like typing them out right now.

I called D* and they gave me the HR20, dish, install, and HD package (12 months) for free plus a $10 credit for 12 months. All I had to pay was $20.

I sold my HR10250 for $200 on eBay. A win-win situation, and the new HD channels will be launched SOON! (And will not be seen on the HR10250)

:up:


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## timb2112 (Dec 2, 2005)

CessnaDriver said:


> That's because we aren't allowed to on here, but I will do it now anyway.
> 
> I LOVE MY HR20! I am a raving fan.


I am too! My wife can use it with NO problems! I think that says it all.

Networking for music....The HR10 is no competition there.

:up:


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## CosmoKramer (Jan 23, 2007)

joelq said:


> I understand that use case, and trust me, I do watch a lot of sports. I'm just saying that in practice, I rarely have both tuners available for the entire time I'm watching something.
> 
> I don't consider a feature beneficial if I have to work around my normal usage habits (i.e., stop a recording to free up a buffer, etc.) in order to use the feature.
> 
> Again, maybe I just have more recordings going on than most, but I doubt it.


What the Heck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on give me a break that is a lame, stop recording shows that you will not ever get around to watching. Or you have way to much time on your hands? I do not that is why I try to watch two sporting events at the same time.

DLB is a great feature that does not give D* revenue so they rather work on VOD for the revenue stream. I understand $$$ rules but do not sugar coat the issue that just because it does not effect me it is ok.

It is a big oversight on D* part and their will more than I that will look elsewhere.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

CosmoKramer said:


> What the Heck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Come on give me a break that is a lame, stop recording shows that you will not ever get around to watching. Or you have way to much time on your hands? I do not that is why I try to watch two sporting events at the same time.
> 
> DLB is a great feature that does not give D* revenue so they rather work on VOD for the revenue stream. I understand $$$ rules but do not sugar coat the issue that just because it does not effect me it is ok.
> ...


Gee, how can that be an oversight?  According to all of our HR20 friends, DirecTV is listening to all of their concerns and making the HR20 box the best dvr yet. 

I'm shocked that you think they are only thinking about money


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

RS4 and his general attitude aside, I think "oversight" is a generous word here. Oversight implies some sort of mistake. This, to me, was a decision that they made. Not a decision that I would make or that I love, but a decision none the less.


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## ebockelman (Jul 12, 2001)

timb2112 said:


> I am too! My wife can use it with NO problems! I think that says it all.
> 
> Networking for music....The HR10 is no competition there.
> 
> :up:


Welcome to the DirecTivos of 2003.


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

timb2112 said:


> Networking for music....The HR10 is no competition there.


I suppose, except for those folks like me who listen to music over the network on the HR10 every day.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

I will not be pleased with the HR-20 until I can get two things with it:

1. The ability to record "season passes" without having to constantly delete repeats that continually get recorded. Say what you want about speed, the one critical feature to any DVR I own is its ability to record shows without me having to look over its shoulder every day. Tivo does it, HR-20 does not. Say what you want, but the Series Link does not hold the jock of Tivo's Season Pass.

2. Dual Live Buffer - I love this for NFLST, but this is not the only reason I use it. I like to flip back and forth between shows, and periodically, I like to rewind those shows to see what I missed. Can't do that with HR-20 unless I set one up to record. Thats a lot of extra work for me considering I may do this every hour or half hour for an entire evening.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

ebockelman said:


> Welcome to the DirecTivos of 2003.


Not quite.

Music and Photos didn't come to SA TiVo's until 2004, and then finally, by hack to the S2 DTivo's in '05.

In 2003 we were doing it with our modded Xboxen.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I haven't had a problem with duplicate shows on my HR20. However, the HR20 doesn't have TiVo's "28 day rule" so if you delete a show, it's eligible for rerecording immediately.


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## alwayscool (May 10, 2005)

Arcady said:


> You have local channels in semi-HD, but not all of them.
> 
> I have a $2 antenna from 1964 that gets the same stuff, but in better quality.


What he said!

I have an OTA antenna and it blows away ANY HD channel D* has to offer in picture quality.


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## whitepelican (Feb 15, 2005)

Billy66 said:


> Music and Photos didn't come to SA TiVo's until 2004, and then finally, by hack to the S2 DTivo's in '05.


If you want to get technical, it was late 2004 when some enterprising folks learned how to load v4.0 software from the SAs onto DirecTivos, thus enabling the HMO and MRV on the DirecTivo. There's an "official" thread at DDB discussing it in Nov. 04.


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## watchdogfl (Dec 21, 2001)

joelq said:


> There again with the dual buffers! Am I the only one that thinks the dual buffers are woefully overrated? The vast majority of the times that I'm watching something, I've already got something recording on one tuner which makes the dual buffers useless. Unless, I guess, I'm recording many more shows than the typical user, which I seriously doubt.
> 
> I think this is another one of those red herrings - it isn't as a big a deal as many people make it out to be!


No... you are not the only one... YES... you are in the minority, at least based on my experience. BUT... I run (make that USED to run) in the NFL Sunday Ticket crowd. Dual Buffers made watching 2 games AWESOME. Better yet, you could concentrate on one and use the other to surf between various other games or keep it on the red zone channel.

DO NOT give me that lame excuse of recording two games. That totaly defeats the flexibility and freedom of live dual buffers.

Now for my 2 cents on the HR20 vs. HD Tivo. I left DirecTV for cable before the HD Tivo came out. I was fed up with their outragous leased equipment costs and their 2 year commitments everytime you did anything hardware related. After 11 years of platinum packages and NFL sunday tickets they finally got too greedy for me.

I hooked up Cable and ran DirecTV side by side in my home for a month. The HD video quality was noticably better on cable. As seen by me and several of my friends. Cable required no contract and I knew I coudl pick up a variety of tivo products. I hooked up two S2 DT Tivos and let me tell you that MRV was a hit from day one. I dropped Directv a few days after that.

I picked up an HD Tivo a month ago and have been sublimely happy with it. It is Tivo with HD and awesome quality. MRV will be here for it before end of year. My friend recently got an HR20 and we did some comparison viewing and playing. His only regret is that he is such a huge soccer fan that he had to go with directv because our cable company did not carry setanta (sp?). We decided that out of a 10 point review we would give the Tivo a 9 (until MRV and T2G are released which would be a 10) and the HR20 a 7. Both do the same job but you get more reliablity from season passes and better development and features on the Tivo... but you pay for that, monthly.

Basically if all you care about is every HD channel under the sun... you have to go HR20. If you are pretty mainstream about what you watch in HD, SDV will not bother you 90% of the time. And anyone who says SDV will break Tivo S3 boxes has not read the news. SDV may impact you for a short time, 1 or 2 fiscal quarters, but Tivo has a fix, cable labs has already said it will allow work arounds for this (i.e. usb dongle) and Tivo will support it. And if you don't believe that, just go back and read all the naysayers that said S3 would never get MRV or T2G. Well guess what, they're in Beta and will be out in November.

So... go with the HR20 if you are not picky about HD video quality and don't mind slightly less functionality and slightly less UI saviness.

Go with HD Tivo if you like your cable company line-up, want the top of the line DVR product, and want to watch any show you record on any of your DVR's, or your laptop, or ipod, etc.


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## Frank_M (Sep 9, 2001)

I'm happy with my two HR20's right now, I do like the speed, and I can be a bit patient with them fixing the autorecord bug.

The thing I miss most is Suggestions. I know people here mostly dismiss it, but I used it a lot. I don't necessarily want to have season passes for shows that I like to watch on occassion (M*A*S*H, Simpsons, etc) but I like being able to rate them so that I normally get a few of them recorded. Same thing with some of the shows on the travel channel, and even the occassional movie.

But otherwise, I like the unit very much.


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## davahad (Dec 1, 2002)

Had the HR20 for about a week now so haven't done many recordings or series recordings yet which is most important to me in a DVR.

However, I can say that the HR20 30 Second Slip (skip) sucks. I've watched a couple of recordings using this and it takes about 10 seconds to skip 2:30 minutes of commercials (yes that's only 5 button presses) where the HR10-250 takes around 3 seconds and they happen as fast as you can press the 30 Second skip button. It's also annoying having to watch commercials slip by so slowly and I now miss the HR10-250's 30 second skip. 

I will continue using both of them until the HR20 proves reliable at not missing recordings.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

davahad said:


> Had the HR20 for about a week now so haven't done many recordings or series recordings yet which is most important to me in a DVR.
> 
> However, I can say that the HR20 30 Second Slip (skip) sucks. I've watched a couple of recordings using this and it takes about 10 seconds to skip 2:30 minutes of commercials (yes that's only 5 button presses) where the HR10-250 takes around 3 seconds and they happen as fast as you can press the 30 Second skip button. It's also annoying having to watch commercials slip by so slowly and I now miss the HR10-250's 30 second skip.
> 
> I will continue using both of them until the HR20 proves reliable at not missing recordings.


I like it - you can press the 30 sec and the number of times you pressed it shows up as a number to let you know. Then if you see the show come on you hit play and it backup us a bit.

I never used the 30 sec skip on the 10-250, I preferred to use FF.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Jebberwocky! said:


> I like it - you can press the 30 sec and the number of times you pressed it shows up as a number to let you know. Then if you see the show come on you hit play and it backup us a bit.
> 
> I never used the 30 sec skip on the 10-250, I preferred to use FF.


It's obvious you never used the 30-sec skip. If so, you would not like the 30-sce slip on the HR20.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Frank_M said:


> I'm happy with my two HR20's right now, I do like the speed, and I can be a bit patient with them fixing the autorecord bug.


I hope you have a lot of patience. The box has been out for over a year and the major feature still doesn't work.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> It's obvious you never used the 30-sec skip. If so, you would not like the 30-sce slip on the HR20.


I used it plenty, I prefer to FF. The HR 20's way is a nice mix of the two.

The only obivious thing is your inability to make or accept changes 

So far I like what I've worked with. Time will tell me if it is ready for prime time.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

If I used it for commercial skipping I think I would like the skip better, but for me the only time I use it is in between plays in football so I find the slip a bit better because the play gap is 25 seconds and the skip 30 so it helps me not go into the next play as often.

If I used it for commercials it would be too slow.


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## guins (Oct 9, 2001)

I've had my HR20 for a week and a half and I've given a fair chance to impress me and for me to get used to it. Disclosure: I've had TiVo for many years, but I was open to new ideas and ways of doing things. 

Overall the HR-20 is a serviceable DVR product if NOT FOR THE for the pixelation. Damn some recorded programs get totally ruined by pixelation. Thank God I have Dtivos to duplicate record shows because I would never rely on the HR20. I thought software upgrades had fixed this probelm.

Another thing that sucks is no dual live buffers. If you are a sports fan these are must. That is ususally the only time I watch live tv and DLBs are a nice feature. I also do not like the small tv screen that pops up on the menus. I wish you could turn that off. The 30 second skip blows and the jump to tick is lame too.

There are some good improvements that would be nice in a TiVo....recording a show is fast, menus are fast, and recording in HD is the biggest plus. There are other enhancements but they are minimal.

I cannot believe how bad the pixelation is. And it lasts and lasts.....not just a second or two....which is what I expected when reading about the problem beforehand. It will totally ruin a recording rendering it unwatchable or even listenable. Bad!

Please TiVo and Directv get back together and make a worthy D* HD box!!!


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

I've had an HR20 for over 3 months now and never since a recording with pixelation. Haven't had any issues yet. I used Tivo for 3+ years prior (still have a Tivo upstairs).


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I can't tell any difference in picture between my HR20 and HR10. No more or less "pixelation". I have seen signs of over-compression on some SD channels, but that's not the box's fault.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Jebberwocky! said:


> I used it plenty, I prefer to FF. The HR 20's way is a nice mix of the two.
> 
> The only obivious thing is your inability to make or accept changes
> 
> So far I like what I've worked with. Time will tell me if it is ready for prime time.


In my mind, this is just another poor imitation of a great Tivo feature. The commercials on many of the channels (like Discovery) are constantly repeated. Once I've seen them, I'm not interested in viewing them and/or watching them pass by the screen again. Being able to press the button to skip through them quickly is the ultimate convenience. This is one of the major reasons I prefer Tivo.

Yes, I admit it. I think the Tivo features are well thought out and meets my viewing habits the best of anything that I've read about and/or seen. The only HR20 feature that I would be even remotely interested in (other then mpeg4) is the VOD. But, I'll wait and see what happens. I certainly don't want the HR20 with another 2-year commitment.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

RS4 said:


> In my mind, this is just another poor imitation of a great Tivo feature. The commercials on many of the channels (like Discovery) are constantly repeated. Once I've seen them, I'm not interested in viewing them and/or watching them pass by the screen again. Being able to press the button to skip through them quickly is the ultimate convenience. This is one of the major reasons I prefer Tivo.
> 
> Yes, I admit it. I think the Tivo features are well thought out and meets my viewing habits the best of anything that I've read about and/or seen. The only HR20 feature that I would be even remotely interested in (other then mpeg4) is the VOD. But, I'll wait and see what happens. I certainly don't want the HR20 with another 2-year commitment.


is the 2 year committment the real deal killer for you?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Actually RS4 it's not a feature of TiVo. It's a back door code that the user must enable. It was a feature of ReplayTV, but TiVo was too chicken to implement it out of the box.

I like the skip too, but TiVo only "kind of" gave it to you after everyone else shamed them into it.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

guins said:


> ...Overall the HR-20 is a serviceable DVR product if NOT FOR THE for the pixelation...


Guins, have you reported this in the Issues threads at dbstalk.com? The reason I ask is that I just did a search for pixellation and pixelation in those threads and see only one report but it states that it might have been due to weather.

If you are having a problem, the developers need the details as to channel, program, date, and time, signal strengths, etc. Also, was it live TV or a recording, just playing or using trickplay? With good info, they can hunt it down. Please click here to report for 0x18a:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=95608

If it is an ongoing problem, please post a picture if you can. It seems that most report, as you have seen above, that the HR10 and HR20 pictures are very comparable. The MPG2 is not nearly as good as the MPEG4 that will be coming shortly.

Please let your voice be heard.

- Craig


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Jebberwocky! said:


> is the 2 year committment the real deal killer for you?


Yes, it is for now. DirecTV doesn't have a product that I want to sign up for another 2 years and they will not even let me try it out.

I've read enough about the HR20 to have a strong feeling I won't like it. I love the way the Tivo works and that is more important to me then where I get the video. So, I'm not willing to fork over $300 just to try out a box that I have strong doubts about.

I don't like the picture showing while I am in the menus. I don't like the way the search and auto record features work. I don't like not having a way to filter channels, and I certainly don't like the remote, although I'm sure I can program it into my current all-in-one remote.

I do like the vod and mpeg4 and would love to at least give it a try, but not if I have to sign up for 2 years.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

I look at it a little different - lets say I had cable w/o any committment. If I bought a Tivo S3 for $500, that is money I spent up front. 

When I bought my 10-250's I paid $800, $350 & $300 for them, again money spent upfront.

They gave me the 20's (nothing up front) but make me committ to 2 years. If I decide to leave after a few months and do something else, I pay at that point but I'm still ahead of the game.


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

I really dislike the HR20. I am sure I could easily list 20 things I dont like about it but why waste the time - to each his own. 

Bottom line is that the first one they sent me is in my basement sitting on the floor, the 2nd one is in my son's room connected with only one sat line. He only uses it to record one program and he is sure he got stuck with the old tivo and wants to know why he cant get one like I have, lol.


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## guins (Oct 9, 2001)

milominderbinder said:


> Guins, have you reported this in the Issues threads at dbstalk.com? The reason I ask is that I just did a search for pixellation and pixelation in those threads and see only one report but it states that it might have been due to weather.
> 
> If you are having a problem, the developers need the details as to channel, program, date, and time, signal strengths, etc. Also, was it live TV or a recording, just playing or using trickplay? With good info, they can hunt it down. Please click here to report for 0x18a:
> 
> ...


No I have not reported it but I will.

The last two incidents that I remember were a recording of the Miami / Oklahoma football game. I think that was an ABC game so I was recording HD off the bird.

Also, several times it has happened on 'The Tonight Show' which is also recorded off the bird.

In fact I have not been recording OTA since my locals are in HD.

This is not minor pixelation. It is so bad that you wouldn't recoginize the video (i.e. you couldn't guess what you were watching) or hear any audio. And it lasts for 10 or 15 minutes virtually ruining your recording.

It does not seem to happen much during live tv, which I rarely watch except for HD Sporting events. Although it has happened during live events, but does not last as long or I flip to OTA if I can to see if that helps.

It is weird but it seems maybe FFwding triggers it like when a tape gets stuck in a VCR after you are ffwding and there is slack or something. I know that is not it, but that is what it feels like when you are buzzing through a taped program. Because with the Miaimi/OU game and The Tonight Show, these are programs that I ffwd'ed through to browse the program. I did not start at the beginning and just let it play and skip commercials.


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## guins (Oct 9, 2001)

Here is the bottomline on the HR-20......if someone came into my house and stole my HR-20, would I be pissed off? Sure. But if someone took my zippered Hughes DTivos, they would be dead!!!!

The HR-20 will not make you want to run out and upgrade all of your TiVos, quite the contrary. It will make you appreicate your TiVo all the more!

Very unfortunate considering the growth of HDTV (finally), that we don't have a better HD D* product.


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## Indiana627 (Jan 24, 2003)

guins said:


> The HR-20 will not make you want to run out and upgrade all of your TiVos, quite the contrary. It will make you appreicate your TiVo all the more!.


It doesn't make me appreciate my Tivos anymore. It doesn't make me want to unbox my HR10 sitting in the basement storage at all. Both get the job done IMHO.


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## badmonkey (Apr 8, 2003)

Indiana627 said:


> It doesn't make me appreciate my Tivos anymore. It doesn't make me want to unbox my HR10 sitting in the basement storage at all. Both get the job done IMHO.


I couldn't agree more... I have 3 HR10's in boxes since they were replaced with HR20's. In my opinion, they both work equally well. And - again, this is only my opinion - the interface on the HR20 is much cleaner and more functional.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

badmonkey said:


> the interface on the HR20 is much cleaner and more functional.


Agree - looks much more "current" vs. the dated TIVO menus


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Jebberwocky! said:


> I look at it a little different - lets say I had cable w/o any committment. If I bought a Tivo S3 for $500, that is money I spent up front.
> 
> When I bought my 10-250's I paid $800, $350 & $300 for them, again money spent upfront.
> 
> They gave me the 20's (nothing up front) but make me committ to 2 years. If I decide to leave after a few months and do something else, I pay at that point but I'm still ahead of the game.


I certainly don't want to encourage a company that I think is offering a product of lesser quality then what I currently enjoy. I want DirecTV to offer products that have a level of enjoyment that is equivalent or better then the current offerings.

I feel they have settled for lesser quality then the Tivos. The last thing I want to do is give them $300 for a product I don't like. Instead, I feel I send them a stronger message by refusing to sign the 2-year contract without a home trial. If enough other people do the same thing, then maybe DirecTV will be encouraged to offer a Tivo product.

I think the best way to let a company know you don't like what they are offering is to let them know via communications (email, phone call, etc) and then through the wallet.

DirecTV made this mess by switching to mpeg4 HD. Like a lot of other people, I paid big bucks for the HR10-250 and the other DTivos. Now, they're telling me that I have to shell out $300 if I don't like their new box. In my opinion, they should be offering free upgrades with either a home trial or no commitment. Until then, I'll wait and see what happens.

I'm glad there are folks who like the HR20, but it appears to me that a large number of Tivo users have a take-it or leave-it attitude. I can't understand why a year after this product is on the market and the reputation of something less then stellar is DirecTV not more accommodating to its customers?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

RS4 said:


> DirecTV made this mess by switching to mpeg4 HD. Like a lot of other people, I paid big bucks for the HR10-250 and the other DTivos. Now, they're telling me that I have to shell out $300 if I don't like their new box. In my opinion, they should be offering free upgrades with either a home trial or no commitment. Until then, I'll wait and see what happens.


I don't think DirecTv has a mess. They are rolling out many new channels after a successful satellite launch and are likely not hemorrhaging customers at the rate TiVo is.

Your activity or inactivity means nothing to DirecTv. Right now they need all the time they can get to service the customers who do want to switch, their need is urgent and your actions allow DirecTv that time. In the meantime, you're subscribed to all of your programming including paying every cent for HD that someone with an HR20 is paying. you aren't withholding anything from them. You just seem to be content to get less programming for the same money and somehow think you're sending a message to DirecTv?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> I don't think DirecTv has a mess. They are rolling out many new channels after a successful satellite launch and are likely not hemorrhaging customers at the rate TiVo is.
> 
> Your activity or inactivity means nothing to DirecTv. Right now they need all the time they can get to service the customers who do want to switch, their need is urgent and your actions allow DirecTv that time. In the meantime, you're subscribed to all of your programming including paying every cent for HD that someone with an HR20 is paying. you aren't withholding anything from them. You just seem to be content to get less programming for the same money and somehow think you're sending a message to DirecTv?


Actually no, I don't have the HD package. I thought it was way over priced and told them so when I canceled it. I canceled NFLST this year because I had decided that $200 was my price point. Once again I let them know when I canceled it why. I refused the HR20 even though it was technically free because they would not allow me to test it at home unless I signed up for a 2-year contact. After their latest general price increase, I stopped HBO and started using Netflix. Again, I let them know why. So, I consider myself to be quite active in letting DirecTV know when I don't like their service and/or products.

Yes, you could absolutely be correct. DirecTV probably doesn't care at all about me. But perhaps if enough others are doing the same thing, they will start caring. Who knows? Time will tell.

I have been a DirecTV customer since they first came out. I want to stay that way. However, I will not be railroaded into products and services that I think are inferior. I'm probably more vocal than others, but at least I feel better that my voice is being heard - even if it is a minority.

DirecTV was a service that I was happy to send friends and relatives to - especially with the DTivos. Now, the best I can say is that I persuaded a guy in the office to stay with Comcast because DirecTV is no longer on my recommendation list.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Fair enough RS4. I surely don't begrudge you your choice and your stated actions seem to support.


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## rb5505 (Jul 29, 2004)

RS4 said:


> Being able to press the button to skip through them quickly is the ultimate convenience. This is one of the major reasons I prefer Tivo.


perfect summary of my apprehension. my favorite tivo feature is the 30 second instant skip. hr20 is coming later this month...i hope to "adjust" asap.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

rb5505 said:


> perfect summary of my apprehension. my favorite tivo feature is the 30 second instant skip. hr20 is coming later this month...i hope to "adjust" asap.


Good luck - I hope you enjoy it. The more I read about it, the more I realize I wouldn't like it at all.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

rb5505 said:


> perfect summary of my apprehension. my favorite tivo feature is the 30 second instant skip. hr20 is coming later this month...i hope to "adjust" asap.


Umm... where are you hearing that?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Umm... where are you hearing that?


Earl, I think you're getting a little paranoid - I believe he's saying that he's getting an HR20 latter in the month and hopes he can get used to it's rendition of the 30-sec skip.  - i.e he hopes he can 'adjust' to the way that DirecTV has programmed it in their version of the dvr.


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

Bad Monkey, we should trade boxes in the basement. Customer Retention told me that I owned one of my HR20s (sitting in a box in the basement) since it was a replacment for my HR10; however, I dont believe them.

Three things that really drove me crazy on the HR20; that 30 second slip, no dual buffers, hold the button for slow motion. They just ruined my style of watching football games. I did like the much much quicker operating system though.

I still can't believe I paid for the replacement plan all these years and I got an HR20 as the result. I tried the HR20 and didn't like it but I still got a 2 year extension, then I spent over $100 fixing my HR10 myself, go figure...


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

What do I think of the HR20? I love it! 

There, now to go sit in the corner and wait for the Tivo Goons to come and beat me up. Or lock me away until i see the error of my ways


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## wilbur_the_goose (Sep 11, 2006)

I was a D*/TiVo user since the first week the DSR-6000 came out. I bought 2 HR10-250's when they were $999 each.

I've had my HR20-700 for about 6 months and love them so much that I sold both my HR10-250's on eBay.

And tomorrow (9/19), I'll probably have a TON of HD to watch along with Video on Demand*, Media Sharing*, and soon, Remote Booking.

* - These are HR20 "Cutting Edge" features that a number of customers are acceptance 'testing'.

The HR20 has blown my socks off.

And I love TiVo - to me the HR20 is just better.

(and I've been at TCF since '01, with a different username. I still remember being a beta tester on the DSR-6000 when the second tuner was first activated.)


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

coachO said:


> Bad Monkey, we should trade boxes in the basement. Customer Retention told me that I owned one of my HR20s (sitting in a box in the basement) since it was a replacment for my HR10; however, I dont believe them.
> 
> Three things that really drove me crazy on the HR20; that 30 second slip, no dual buffers, hold the button for slow motion. They just ruined my style of watching football games. I did like the much much quicker operating system though.
> 
> I still can't believe I paid for the replacement plan all these years and I got an HR20 as the result. I tried the HR20 and didn't like it but I still got a 2 year extension, then I spent over $100 fixing my HR10 myself, go figure...


I thought that if you have the service plan they would replace a receiver without a 2 year commitment. Am I wrong?


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## Krookut (Apr 7, 2002)

I got the HR20-700 a week ago. Just had the last 6 or 7 recordings show up in the play list, but got a blank screen only when trying to play them. Unplugged it and did a reset and the last recording was ok. I hope this is just a fluke that will not repeat. Other than that I like the box a lot. Moving the HR10 to the bedroom for now.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Sep 11, 2006)

Krooku,
Probably a fluke - I've never had that happen. Be sure to check out www.dbstalk.com for help if needed.

BTW - Don't get me wrong - TiVo is awesome. In fact, I probably "sold" 6-10 families on it.

You know what's funny- the feature I miss the most is the suggestions; something that many folks just turn off.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I like the HR20, a couple of cool features that TIVO could have (at least DirecTivo) such as playing live TV or a recorded show in the small window while browsing the menu and the fact that the buttons mostly work the same way whatever you are watching

One thing I really miss is the TIVO style guide which can show 12 or so hours ahead of one channel.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Sep 11, 2006)

John - the HR20 has that feature - Go to guide, scroll left to the channel 'hotspot' and click Info on the remote.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> John - the HR20 has that feature - Go to guide, scroll left to the channel 'hotspot' and click Info on the remote.


Thanks, I think I knew that but it's hard to remember. The list is not as clean or easy to use as they Tivo one though where you can see what's on on a page worth of channels and 12 hours forward on the one you are on.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

Well, I have had a couple weeks to use the HR-20 for my NFLST viewing, and I would definitely rate it well below Tivo. 

The lack of a Dual Live Buffer of any sort drives me out of my mind. Even if I record one game and want to switch back and forth to another (non-recording) game, it constantly jumps to the end when I switch to the non-recorded game. If there is a work-around for this, I don't know what it is...but I didn't need a work around (or record a game period) to give me the ability to watch multiple games at the same time. I should be able to pause one and flip back to the other if I have 2 tuners. Perhaps this is their work-around for the Tivo '389 patent? 

The 30-second slip feature is really 35 seconds with the 2-3 second slip-back. 30 seconds works perfectly for skipping huddles, and 35/32-33 doesn't. 

I like the idea of being able to program in your fantasy players (Player Watch) and it tells you (if you have Super Fan and are not on a local channel) when one of your players makes a play of some sort. However, I can't switch back to watch that game unless I am recording it or another game, so its kind of a waste! 

I do love the Game Mix channel, but I wish I could limit it to 4 or 6 boxes. I know...wishful thinking.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Krooku,
> Probably a fluke - I've never had that happen. Be sure to check out www.dbstalk.com for help if needed.


That is hardly a fluke. Yeah, go over to dbstalk and read about all the others having the same problem.


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## Craig540 (Nov 11, 2002)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> John - the HR20 has that feature - Go to guide, scroll left to the channel 'hotspot' and click Info on the remote.


This was the main feature I was missing (TIVO style guide ) thanks you just made my day. The other thing was the dual buffers and the ability to switch between tuners with the down arrow button. Is there a way to switch between tuners.

I am happy I made the switch to the HR20. I got 3 free and DVR service free for 1 year, free hbo/showtime for 6 months.


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

Wilbur, you seem to have made the transition well. Maybe there are some work arounds for my issues.
1) I like to watch some football plays in slow motion which is easy on Tivo, but I never get the push and hold button right on the HR20
2) I really like the 30 sec skip, but get "tired" of staring at the screen during the HR20 30 sec slip.
3). It seems too easy to watch 2 football games at the same time with my HR10 due to dual buffers and easly with the live tv button on the remote. The hr20 just seems painful
4) To find my list of recorded shows is easy on the tivo, one button, on the HR20 it says MY playlist, then it says go there, then they are in folders instead of listed by recording date and fewer shows are listed on the screen. 

I have more that I could list and don't get me wrong, the HR20 does some things I like. OTA seems to have a stronger signal and the interface is much much faster.

I have read all of Milo's extremely helpful posts which eliminated the learning curve for the HR20, so need to send me there.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

coachO said:


> Wilbur, you seem to have made the transition well. Maybe there are some work arounds for my issues.
> 1) I like to watch some football plays in slow motion which is easy on Tivo, but I never get the push and hold button right on the HR20
> 2) I really like the 30 sec skip, but get "tired" of staring at the screen during the HR20 30 sec slip.
> 3). It seems too easy to watch 2 football games at the same time with my HR10 due to dual buffers and easly with the live tv button on the remote. The hr20 just seems painful


To me, DLB is the best for football. I think you know the work arounds about recording them both, but for football it's not as seamless as it was with tivo and DLB.

For me, I like the slip over the skip for in between plays, but I know that's personal.



> 4) To find my list of recorded shows is easy on the tivo, one button, on the HR20 it says MY playlist, then it says go there, then they are in folders instead of listed by recording date and fewer shows are listed on the screen.


Don't hit menu first. The fastest way is to hit the list button. Bam, one button to the playlist (honestly tivo was 2 presses of the tiVo button right?). Now, if you want to change the sort of the playlist, while you're in the list, hit Menu and then choose "Order by" and your order choice will be saved. There are definitely some improvements in this area for you.

Good luck man.


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

Thanks Billy. It is still going to take some awesome HD channels to intice me to give it a shot again.


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## montag (Mar 10, 2001)

Craig540 said:


> The other thing was the dual buffers and the ability to switch between tuners with the down arrow button. Is there a way to switch between tuners.


I'd love it if the HR20 had this feature. Anyone?


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

The HR20 does not have DLBs. It is the most requested feature on dbstalk.com.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

Craig540 said:


> ...The other thing was the dual buffers and the ability to switch between tuners with the down arrow button. Is there a way to switch between tuners...


No. There is a DLB work-around but it is a kludge. Dual Live Buffers is the most requested feature on the HR20. The feature I want most is Channels I Receive.

- Craig


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

coachO said:


> Wilbur, you seem to have made the transition well. Maybe there are some work arounds for my issues.
> 1) I like to watch some football plays in slow motion which is easy on Tivo, but I never get the push and hold button right on the HR20
> 2) I really like the 30 sec skip, but get "tired" of staring at the screen during the HR20 30 sec slip.
> 3). It seems too easy to watch 2 football games at the same time with my HR10 due to dual buffers and easly with the live tv button on the remote. The hr20 just seems painful
> 4) To find my list of recorded shows is easy on the tivo, one button, on the HR20 it says MY playlist, then it says go there, then they are in folders instead of listed by recording date and fewer shows are listed on the screen...


1) To use Slo-Mo, you have to press & hold the play button for 3 seconds. By then the play is over...
2) I am more bothered by the fact that the 30 second slip is actually 35 seconds.
3) DLB is the #1 requested feature. The HR20 Tips & Tricks has a workaround, not elegant but it works.
4) The LIST button is for MyPlaylist. You also have a hidden option about the sorting.

- Craig


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

milominderbinder said:


> 3) DLB is the #1 requested feature.
> - Craig


Dual live buffers may be impossible on this unit due to design paramaters, if not illegal.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

milominderbinder said:


> No. There is a DLB work-around but it is a kludge. Dual Live Buffers is the most requested feature on the HR20. The feature I want most is Channels I Receive.
> 
> - Craig


with three units hooked up to the same TV, do I have TLB?


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

Jebberwocky! said:


> with three units hooked up to the same TV, do I have TLB?


Yes, but it's not as easy to jump between them.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

fasTLane said:


> Dual live buffers may be impossible on this unit due to design paramaters, if not illegal.


Why would it be illegal?


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## jaypb (Dec 10, 2003)

Glad I found this thread. I've had my HR20 for about 3 months now and I currently have 4 10-250's so it's going to take me (as well as the wife) awhile to get used to the things we miss as we *attempt* to migrate from HDtivo to D*DVR technology. I realize that the HDTIVO's aren't infallible or error-proof, but I'm certainly either missing/longing for the following or hoping that D* adds them to the HR20:

1- Is it just me (or maybe it's been discussed and I've missed it) or does anyone else hate the fact that 3X FF speed on the TIVO equated to about 1 minute of show time per second....so you could fly through a :60 minute show in literally one minute (perfect IMHO for SportsCenter, FSN Sports reports, Baseball Tonight,e tc..) whereas the HR20's 3x FF speed equates to about 35-40 seconds of show per second of forwarding....and the 4x FF speed IMHO is just unviewable?

2- The 30 second skip/slip. I've used that since day one.

3- Folder related-I record a LOT of daily/weekly sports shows (Sportrise from CSN 629, Baseball Tonight from ESPN, FSR Baseball report, TWIB from FSN etc...) and what I dislike about the HR20 is that when I scroll to the bottom or even the middle of a group of recordings, watch that show and DELETE it, the menu/playlist defaults back to the FIRST entry in the folder. Is there a way to NOT default back to the first entry in the folder? I'm almost positive that the HDTIVO would just leave me on the recording directly "above" the one I just deleted. Or am I missing a menu function/feature on the HR20....or am I the only one who has 20-30 recordings in a folder at a time?

4- Believe it or not, I miss the clock/timer in the bottom right hand corner. I have the hr20 in my dark basement where I can't see a clock....and I don't like having to hit play or info to see where I am in a recording.

5- Suggestions. I truly use this on a daily basis for everything from Sports shows/events (ESPN News, Coaches shows, College football) to Animation/Kids shows (Family Guy/Arthur/South Park) to my wife's L&O's re-runs on USA etc...

6- The Tivo style guide is something that the wife and I have grown used to using, especially when it comes to scanning HBO-HD and SHO-HD to see what new/good movies are on from Friday-Sunday.

7- Saved searches---is there a limit? I've been using this as a workaround for Wishlists, as I use my wishlists on my Tivo's not to autorecord...but to find the types of shows I want to record by Keyword---and then I choose if I want to record them.

8-Dual Live Buffers...as a good amount of others have already commented on. 

These were the only ones I could rattle off right from the top of my head. I have yet to make the move to attempt to REPLACE any of my HDTIVO's with an HR20. The reason I got an HR20 was to familiarize myself for when I was ready to go full bore, swap out my HDTIVO's and just "move on". But, I haven't brought myself to do that yet....and I guess it's because the new HD channels haven't come out yet. But, it's inevitable that I WILL have to move to the HR20 full-scale...if only for all the additional HD movie/sports channels that I'm hoping to have access to.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

jaypb,

Please refer to the dbstalk forum and specifically the HR20 FAQ for HR20 questions but here are some quick answers:
1- From the HR20 Tips & Tricks: Fast Forward is 5, 12, 20, or 90 times normal speed
3- Press [BACK] then ● Delete and you will be right where you left off.
5- I use the directv.com mytvplanner
6- For the TiVo style guide, press <GUIDE> highlight the channel name & press <INFO>
7- You can have up to 25 Saved searches. Series Link are what you are looking for.
8- The HR20 Tips & Tricks has a workaround, not elegant but it works.

- Craig


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

I wish people would stop with the "Dual Live Buffer" workaround. Its not a workaround. Its a Dual Record Buffer. You can't channel surf, and start a new buffer without recording that new channel. Its useless for NFLST users that like to game-surf.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

That's one of those debates. I agree with you kmill14. It's only on NFL Sundays that I miss it, but I know it's year round for others.

The work around doesn't help me much, but I hear it has value for some.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Just give it up, kmill14. Let the HR20 crowd have their little workaround. 

Have to say that feature is mighty addictive.  

Thanks Tivo engineers.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

fasTLane said:


> Have to say that feature is mighty addictive.


It is. It was introduced to the market first to by DirecTv to DirecTv customers with UltimateTV and then through their massive investment and partnership with TiVo. Took TiVo another 4 years to get that in the hands of their SA customers.

Maybe you should be thanking Microsoft engineers, they got it to market first.


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## Bathel (Jan 24, 2004)

coachO said:


> 4) To find my list of recorded shows is easy on the tivo, one button, on the HR20 it says MY playlist, then it says go there, then they are in folders instead of listed by recording date and fewer shows are listed on the screen.


Have you tried pushing the "LIST" button on the remote? Brings up my recorded shows in one press every time.

BTW, mine are listed in recorded order (albeit in folders, which is fine by me).

I'm a big Tivo Fan, but I have to say that the HR20 has some very good points and even more features that will be coming soon (Video on Demand and Remote booking).

I have to say, I miss most the Tivo Remote. It felt better in the hand, was better layed out, and had more solid feeling buttons. Not to mention it looked better. I miss the sound effects of the Tivo too....


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## montag (Mar 10, 2001)

I'm loving the screen saver. Works out great when I pause something, walk away, and don't come back for a 1/2 hour. My plasma display is very happy.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I liked the dual buffer on the TIVO units but I just don't miss it at all on the HR20


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

JohnB1000 said:


> I liked the dual buffer on the TIVO units but I just don't miss it at all on the HR20


That's because it doesn't have it.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Depends on which way you look at it. I found that I didn't really need it and have basically stopped using it on the TIVO units also. Using it was more of a habit than anything I really needed.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

According to dbstalk's forum, its the #1 requested item, so it seems a lot of people look at it as something they would like. (of course they would probably need to pay royalties to install it, but thats just mho)

Either way, I hate not having it on the HR-20.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> I wish people would stop with the "Dual Live Buffer" workaround. Its not a workaround. Its a Dual Record Buffer. You can't channel surf, and start a new buffer without recording that new channel. Its useless for NFLST users that like to game-surf.


The workaround is a kludge, I totaly agree. But there are some who do use it so people should know it is possible.

- Craig


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## jaypb (Dec 10, 2003)

milominderbinder said:


> jaypb,
> 
> Please refer to the dbstalk forum and specifically the HR20 FAQ for HR20 questions but here are some quick answers:
> 1- From the HR20 Tips & Tricks: Fast Forward is 5, 12, 20, or 90 times normal speed
> ...


I've been a member of DBSTalk since 2003, so I'm very familiar with the site as well as the tools you have over there. I have several of your cheat sheets printed out and scattered throughout my sofa/ottoman. Have I read them all? Nah. I only posted the question here to see if I could get a more Tivo-centric response from those who are uberly Tivo familiar vs. HR20 familiar as far as comparisons go.

Having said all that, I don't think the response you gave in #3 above "gets" me to where I need to be. Again, I have upwards of 20 items in some folders. I have them sorted so that most recent recordings are first in the folder, oldest last. Now, if I'm watching Baseball Tonight episodes, obviously I'd like to watch the oldest first....so I flip down to the oldest one, watch it, delete it, and when the HR20 returns to My Playlist (within that BT folder) it automatically goes to the first show in the folder (i.e the NEWEST/most RECENT). When the 10-250 deletes a show that is the oldest in the folder it simply returns to the show RIGHT above the one that I deleted in the folder....NOT the first/most recent one in the folder. Is there a way on the HR20 to NOT have this behavior occur? Or is that just the way it is?

I'll post this question over at DBSTalk as well. I did a search over there recently, but didn't see anything related to what I was trying to do....or at worst, I'm doing a poor job of verbalizing what it is I'm trying to do 

Regarding #7----that doesn't really help me if I want to peruse (i.e) all Redskins related programming or University of Tennessee related programming (whether it be game related, coaches shows, highlight shows, etc...) and only record the ones I want to record. If 25 saved searches is the limit as of right now, I think I can handle that....but as I'm trying to transfer over my wishlists from the 10-250 to the HR20 I'm sure I'll go over 25 soonly.

Thanks for the info. :up:


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

This is actually one of few threads I have read where people are being objective and helpful instead of bashing the HR10 or HR20. Thanks all!


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## wallyj (Jun 2, 2004)

I've had two HR20's for a few weeks now. Have to say I'm pleasantly supprised so far. I like them, and my wife does too.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

So far after two months, piece of crap. Total un-user friendly, built and designed by a bunch of idiots. If I had a choice (to get new HD channels), it is out the door.

The reasons: eSata replacing internal disk crap, unfriendly search, search resulted in massive list and middle of my list scroll it re-do the search and got me back to the top of the list, my channels bug crap showing channels I do not have, search showing channels I do not have.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

AVPhan said:


> So far after two months, piece of crap. Total un-user friendly, built and designed by a bunch of idiots. If I had a choice (to get new HD channels), it is out the door.
> 
> The reasons: eSata replacing internal disk crap, unfriendly search, search resulted in massive list and middle of my list scroll it re-do the search and got me back to the top of the list, my channels bug crap showing channels I do not have, search showing channels I do not have.


You can really only say that if you compare to the TIVO. IF you say that TIVO is #1 (I'm not saying that but just for discussion) then HR20 is clearly #2 for me, the Comcast and similar boxes are terrible. While the HR20 is not perfect I would argue that neither is TIVO it's just the way we've got used to it. Kinda like driving a car for years then switching to a motorcycle and saying it's crap cause it doesn't have 4 wheels.


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## jshaffer85 (Dec 14, 2004)

The HR20 is better than I expected but it still comes up far short for me.

1) No dual buffer. I'm so used to watching NFL this way and trying to record two games to simulate DB just doesn't cut it. Why they didn't incorporate this feature is unfathomable to me.

2) Channel changes are slow for me. Compared to HR10 it takes 2-3 extra seconds to change channels. Perhaps it is my drive but I expected better performance. Guides are faster than HR10.

3) Choppy frames on forward and rewind. No comparison, Tivo wins hands down.

Positive:

1) 90 minute pause Live TV.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

jaypb said:


> ...Having said all that, I don't think the response you gave in #3 above "gets" me to where I need to be...Is there a way on the HR20 to NOT have this behavior occur? Or is that just the way it is?...
> 
> Regarding #7----that doesn't really help me ...
> Thanks for the info. :up:


Sorry. I am the guy who wrote the Tips & Tricks. I also wish the the PlayList would remember where I left off. It is on the WishList. I would say to post your thread over at dbstalk. DIRECTV does read those threads. dbstalk does have a backdoor that you can use to help with the PlayList sort order though. Those discussions should go there for that tech support. The kludgy DLB workaround proves that the HR20 has the capabillity, it is just so hard to use.

- Craig


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## redondoman (Dec 1, 2002)

I've been a Tivo user since 01 and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised. I do miss the 30 second skip, which was more accurate on the Tivo, but other than that it does what I want it do. For instance season passes, keyword searches, dual input record all seem to work fine so far (I've had it for 2 months now). I actually prefer the menu setup as you can select all kids shows, all HDTV programs, all movies, all music programs, all news, etc. Once the new MPEG4 channels start broadcasting it is going to be a slow march downward for Tivo & DirecTV.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

redondoman said:


> I've been a Tivo user since 01 and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised. I do miss the 30 second skip, which was more accurate on the Tivo, but other than that it does what I want it do. For instance season passes, keyword searches, dual input record all seem to work fine so far (I've had it for 2 months now). I actually prefer the menu setup as you can select all kids shows, all HDTV programs, all movies, all music programs, all news, etc. Once the new MPEG4 channels start broadcasting it is going to be a slow march downward for Tivo & DirecTV.


I wish I understood why DIRECTV would not have the *30* Second Skip to be *35* Seconds. It is just 5 seconds too long for between snaps. So I hit REPLAY as I come out and come up pretty close. Two words: Duh-umb.

- Craig


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## joelq (Oct 9, 2006)

jshaffer85 said:


> The HR20 is better than I expected but it still comes up far short for me.
> 
> ....
> 
> 3) Choppy frames on forward and rewind. No comparison, Tivo wins hands down.


I complained about this too, but it's actually the MPEG4 content that is choppy with trickplay. You'll notice that with MPEG2 the HR20 is actually on par with Tivo.

The box is just pushing more bits doing the realtime MPEG4 decoding than it did with MPEG2. Of course, there's no way to check this out on a Tivo because there's no MPEG4 support.

MPEG4 trickplay smoothness has gotten better over time, but ultimately they'll probably have to put a beefier MPEG4 decoder chip in an update to the HR20 before it'll be what we expect.


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## rjnerd (May 28, 2007)

jshaffer85 said:


> The HR20 is better than I expected but it still comes up far short for me.
> 
> 1) No dual buffer. I'm so used to watching NFL this way and trying to record two games to simulate DB just doesn't cut it. Why they didn't incorporate this feature is unfathomable to me.
> 
> ...


2 and 3 are partly endemic to MPEG4. All the video formats send an entire frame at regular intervals, then just the frame-to-frame changes, until its time for another full synchronizing frame. On MPEG2, this happens every 15 frames. On -4, it can be as many as 200. You can't change channels until you get one of the synch frames. This is less than a second on -2, worst case could be almost 4 seconds on -4. The forward/rewind is often done by jumping between synch frames.


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## Krookut (Apr 7, 2002)

I really wanted to like the HR20, but in my first 2 weeks of ownership, have had empty recordings, where the programs show up in the list, but nothing is there, and also missed recordings, which I had to manually force. Not a good start so far.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

Krookut said:


> I really wanted to like the HR20, but in my first 2 weeks of ownership, have had empty recordings, where the programs show up in the list, but nothing is there, and also missed recordings, which I had to manually force. Not a good start so far.


I have never had this problem. I djust looked and am not seeing others reporting it. Please post it at dbstalk so the developers can see it. Please include all the details you can: date, channel, program, usage at the time, etc.

- Craig


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Krookut said:


> I really wanted to like the HR20, but in my first 2 weeks of ownership, have had empty recordings, where the programs show up in the list, but nothing is there, and also missed recordings, which I had to manually force. Not a good start so far.


This is my major complaint about the HR20, and although the problem has gotten a _lot_ better, it still happens from time to time for me as well. It sucks not being able to trust the unit ...especially with the new fall shows coming up.

That, and my wife and kids still hate the thing. Perhaps once the new HD channels get going their attitude will change.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

Sir_winealot said:


> This is my major complaint about the HR20, and although the problem has gotten a _lot_ better, it still happens from time to time for me as well...


I just checked the issue thread and I do not see this posted. If no one is posting a problem, the dvelopers have nothing to fix. Please post any problems in this forum:

http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112

- Craig


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

Another reason I think HR20 is a crap.....

I have CHUCK SL to set to record: Both, Disk Full, OnTime, Ontime.

It's Premiering tonight at 08:00 on 40-01, my NBC OTA.

Just checked, Here is ToDo list:

L&O CI 242 at 07:00pm - 08:00pm
Torchwood HDNet at 07:00pm - 08:00pm
MNF ESPNH 073 at 08:30 pm
JourneyMan 40-1 at 10:00pm

Check out Chuck's SL Episodes, it shows that it will record the re-run on Saturday, same channel but not the Premiere tonight.
Select RecordOnce on Premiere night, It took with no conflict.

Huh ???????

If you have one, check out all your SLs.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

This is what happened AVPhan.

When you set up your SL, you must have set it up from the re-run on Saturday. Then, when you press record the first time, it sets that as a one time recording. The next press makes it a SL, but does not change the explicit request for the specific episode that took the first record press.

In this case, it wouldn't record the show tonight because you have the same episode set to record already.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

I will be "looking over the shoulder" of my HR-20 every step of the way during these next couple weeks. If it misses anything, my wife will have my head.


Still miss the DLB, as others have pointed out, particularly for NFL watching.

Do like the "space left" bar.

Don't like the lack of only giving me options to record channels I actually get.

Don't like that all my recordings seem to start about 30 seconds in, at least.

Do like the NFL ST Player Tracker and Game Mix channel

Don't like the 35 second skip with 2 second back-up?!?!?!?  

I like the one-click record option
I like the ability to view the guide based on subject, though I never use it..heh.

Overall, it does OK, but not great. The lack of a DLB to me is absolutely frustrating due to my desire to flip back and forth between multiple programs on a wim.


----------



## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The same thing happened to me regarding Chuck and I did not press the record button; I used the Record Series option in the menu. I don't see anything in the guide data that would cause this to happen, but it does seem to have been affecting a lot of HR20 users. I did not try it on my HR10 to see what would happen.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

NBC fubar'd the guide data on Chuck for this Monday's episode and they've changed the guide data a couple times (at first it wasn't flagged as "HD"). The Monday premier seems to be flagged as a repeat while the Saturday repeat is flagged as first run. Thus why it wants to record the Saturday episode. I explicitly canceled the Saturday recording and set tonights to record and all is well.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> This is what happened AVPhan.
> 
> When you set up your SL, you must have set it up from the re-run on Saturday. Then, when you press record the first time, it sets that as a one time recording. The next press makes it a SL, but does not change the explicit request for the specific episode that took the first record press.
> 
> In this case, it wouldn't record the show tonight because you have the same episode set to record already.


Absolutely not. Searched for Chuck, pull up 2 weeks or so ago when only first showing was on the guide and set the SL.
Did similar thing on HR10, HR10 recording the show fine, no intervention.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Look above. There appears to be a Chuck related issue.

What I described would cause those results, so do be aware of that differing behavior. Hope everyone that wants Chuck, got it.


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

I've only had the HR20 a week and must say that the speed of cruising through menus is nice. Some of my season pass settings on my HR10 take forever to complete.

Another nice thing of the HR20 is upgrading the space. I got the 750 GB Free agent external HD for $199 - 10% coupon, and bought a 3 dollar eSata cable from firefold and it's up and running with a bunch of space for the new season. I still have a grounding problem with my upgraded dual drive HR10 where I can't put the case on without it rebooting some times.

Frank


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## Maik (Jul 23, 2002)

I have have 3 HR20's for several weeks now and I have been very pleasantly surprised. In my opinion, the only thing I miss is the dual buffer. Otherwise it is better than the 10-250 in several of the most important areas...1) the PQ is better 2) the OTA works much better. I get channels that I was not able to get with the 10-250 3) Ability to use the guide while watching a recorded show 4) ease and speed to record a season pass. 
Hard drive capacity seems quite large as I already have several HD football games as well as a bevy of HD movies and shows and yet meter says I have 70% available.


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

I miss the dual buffer. A Lot. I also miss going back (left arrow) to get back to the menu exactly where I was. Other than that I like the box, and am happy with the switch.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

yaddayaddayadda said:


> I miss the dual buffer. A Lot. *I also miss going back (left arrow) to get back to the menu exactly where I was*. Other than that I like the box, and am happy with the switch.


doesn't the back button work as you want?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

yaddayaddayadda said:


> I miss the dual buffer. A Lot. I also miss going back (left arrow) to get back to the menu exactly where I was. Other than that I like the box, and am happy with the switch.


Left arrow going back was added a couple months ago. It will even work when watching a recorded program like a Tivo does. Quickest way to delete a program I think.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Look above. There appears to be a Chuck related issue.
> 
> What I described would cause those results, so do be aware of that differing behavior. Hope everyone that wants Chuck, got it.


Nope, lots of people lost it. Go figured even after I deleted the SL and reset it up.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

fmowry said:


> I've only had the HR20 a week and must say that the speed of cruising through menus is nice. Some of my season pass settings on my HR10 take forever to complete.
> 
> Another nice thing of the HR20 is upgrading the space. I got the 750 GB Free agent external HD for $199 - 10% coupon, and bought a 3 dollar eSata cable from firefold and it's up and running with a bunch of space for the new season. I still have a grounding problem with my upgraded dual drive HR10 where I can't put the case on without it rebooting some times.
> 
> Frank


eSata is nice if you get to have it added right away. Try after you have HR20 for a while, what's with plugging eSata in to lose all your programs, SLs, and have to reset every little things.


----------



## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

fmowry said:


> I've only had the HR20 a week and must say that the speed of cruising through menus is nice. Some of my season pass settings on my HR10 take forever to complete.
> 
> Another nice thing of the HR20 is upgrading the space. I got the 750 GB Free agent external HD for $199 - 10% coupon, and bought a 3 dollar eSata cable from firefold and it's up and running with a bunch of space for the new season. I still have a grounding problem with my upgraded dual drive HR10 where I can't put the case on without it rebooting some times.
> 
> Frank


eSata is nice if you get to have it added right away. Try after you have HR20 for a while, what's with plugging eSata in to lose all your programs, SLs, and have to reset every little things.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

AVPhan said:


> Nope, lots of people lost it. Go figured even after I deleted the SL and reset it up.


Huh? lots of people have gone forward in time beyond Saturday and it isn't recorded?

or do you mean lots of people didn't learn about the data issue and make the correction for last night?


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Huh? lots of people have gone forward in time beyond Saturday and it isn't recorded?
> 
> or do you mean lots of people didn't learn about the data issue and make the correction for last night?


I posted this over the other board too:

Deleted the SL entirely
went to guide to CHUCK at 8:00 (done this around 06:00pm).
pulled the episode up,
Selected Record Series, with my options.
After that, went to Episodes.
It showed, 08:00 being set to record, not the other two (Saturday and Next Monday). Figured having enough time to next monday to recheck it.
This morning, No Chuck on HR20.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Gotcha. I haven't checked the other board today. Sorry man, that stinks.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Gotcha. I haven't checked the other board today. Sorry man, that stinks.


And BTW, the SL now shows that two episodes waiting to be recorded (Sat and Next Monday).

Huh ? Mind of it's own, I guess.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

That part makes sense to me


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## yaddayaddayadda (Apr 8, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Left arrow going back was added a couple months ago. It will even work when watching a recorded program like a Tivo does. Quickest way to delete a program I think.


I did not know that. I don't recall mine working that way. I'll have to double check. Thanks


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I believe the left arrow=back is currently part of a CE release and not the national release.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The guide data for Chuck and some other new NBC series has been screwed up, and keeps changing. This is probably the cause of the scheduling issues. The pilot for Chuck will be shown again on Saturday.


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## madbeachcat (Jan 31, 2002)

I had the H10 for about 2 years and I can only remember a couple of times when it failed to record my show.

I've had the HR20 about 11 monthes and it hasn't missed a show yet.

Pretty good for both machines I would say.

By the by, I had a cable DVR from Cableone and it never could do anything right and had to be replaced twice in 6 monthes.


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## Citivas (Oct 12, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> NBC fubar'd the guide data on Chuck for this Monday's episode and they've changed the guide data a couple times (at first it wasn't flagged as "HD"). The Monday premier seems to be flagged as a repeat while the Saturday repeat is flagged as first run. Thus why it wants to record the Saturday episode. I explicitly canceled the Saturday recording and set tonights to record and all is well.


If it was the data, then why did it record fine on the TiVo 10-250 but not on the HR-20. Wouldn't it have messed up on both machines?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Part of the problem was that the initial showing was not flagged as HD but the repeat was. It seems that the DirecTV boxes have a preference for HD showings but the HR10 does not.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

It's pretty obvious that some TIVO lovers are just looking for problems with the HR20, somewhat understandable I guess. I do agree that overall the TIVO is better but it still lacks some good features that the HR20 has, and the HR20 is a pretty good machine considering that you almost have to use it for the future. If you accept that you have to use it and then look at the positives, it really is a pretty solid machine.


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

JohnB, I am just hoping the next generation of HR20 comes out before I have to succumb.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

coachO said:


> JohnB, I am just hoping the next generation of HR20 comes out before I have to succumb.


But of course that'll come out around the time the HR20 is working well and will introduce a whole new set of problems


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## SmackDaddy (Jul 27, 2001)

I just disconnected my last two 10-250's and replaced with two more 20-700's. I now have five of them in a rack accessible to the whole house. I have had DTiVo's since 2001 and have probably sold 50+ during that time frame. I love the 20-700's. Better PQ, faster (except on changing channels) and much easier to set up recordings, etc. 

I do miss DLB.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

SmackDaddy said:


> I just disconnected my last two 10-250's and replaced with two more 20-700's. I now have five of them in a rack accessible to the whole house. I have had DTiVo's since 2001 and have probably sold 50+ during that time frame. I love the 20-700's. Better PQ, faster (except on changing channels) and much easier to set up recordings, etc.
> 
> *I do miss DLB*.


you have 5 buffers - not enough?


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## tbh999 (Aug 29, 2001)

Well, put me on the "It's OK" list.

I have both an HR10-250 and an HR20-100 (as well as three standard definition DirecTivos). Both the HR10 and HR20 have their pros and cons, but in general, if there was an HDirecTivo that could receive the new channel, I'd dump the HR20 today. I've had a lot more missed shows on the HR20 than I ever had on any of my Tivo's.

Somethings on the HR20 are much easier and more intuitive than the on the Tivo (such as setting-up a recording). However, there are some things I still haven't figured out how to do on the HR20! And just earlier this week we discovered that there is a limit of 50 shows in the prioritized (Season Pass in Tivo Speak), many of the shows in our season pass are on hiatus (some are anime and go on hiatus for as long as a year). The Tivo units would deal with these items and record them when ever they started-up again, on the HR20, I have to delete them to make room for other shows, also deleting shows in the prioritized that do not have shows scheduled to record is not as easy as you would think, there is a short cut to do it (Press "-" "-" on the remote), but it isn't very intuitive. 

Also, and I'm kind-of surprised about this, I do really miss the dual buffers.


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## tbh999 (Aug 29, 2001)

Also, one positive thing about the HR20 (other than speed). Is that there is a real commitment from DirecTV to improve it. I haven't actually documented it, but it appears that we get a software update once or twice a month! Compare that to year(s) for the DirecTivo's.

Now, you can take that two ways:

The HR20 needs fixing.
DirecTV is committed to improve it.
 In actuality, I think both No. 1 _and_ 2 are correct.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tbh999 said:


> also deleting shows in the prioritized that do not have shows scheduled to record is not as easy as you would think, there is a short cut to do it (Press "-" "-" on the remote), but it isn't very intuitive.


I thought it was in the 0x18a (The last national release version), but it is at least in the next software update.

ON the bottom of the screen, there is a "KEY"... you will now be able to hit the RED button to delete an item in MOST of the screens, including the prioritizer and the todo list.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

tbh999 said:


> Also, one positive thing about the HR20 (other than speed). Is that there is a real commitment from DirecTV to improve it. I haven't actually documented it, but it appears that we get a software update once or twice a month! Compare that to year(s) for the DirecTivo's.
> 
> Now, you can take that two ways:
> 
> ...


I'm always amazed at how 'committed' DirecTV is. Here they are getting people to pay them while they are still fixing a box that has been out for a year and you guys seem to think this is wonderful. My thought is, why didn't they have the basic functions working long before they released the box? Can you imagine if Apple released an Ipod that let you download a song, but then lost it so you couldn't play it?  People would have been up in arms. Instead, it appears to me that a lot of folks think it's so marvelous that something actually now works. 

If DirecTV were so committed to it's viewers, why isn't it adding DLB?


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

RS4 said:


> I'm always amazed at how 'committed' DirecTV is. Here they are getting people to pay them while they are still fixing a box that has been out for a year and you guys seem to think this is wonderful. My thought is, why didn't they have the basic functions working long before they released the box? Can you imagine if Apple released an Ipod that let you download a song, but then lost it so you couldn't play it?  People would have been up in arms. Instead, it appears to me that a lot of folks think it's so marvelous that something actually now works.
> 
> If DirecTV were so committed to it's viewers, why isn't it adding DLB?


I'm guessing you never owned a first gen iPod ?? ton's of problems. Tried Windows Vista in the early days ???, bought a first run model of a new car design ??

I'd rather have the box with known flaws (of which I don't find virtually any to be a problem) than wait a year or more with no alternative.

I love the TIVO but I'm more than willing to accept the HR20 as a replacement if that's all that is offered.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

He also never tried an early generation tiVo product. I have and each one had fundamental problems upon release.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

RS4 - how many times are you going to make the same post? Considering you have yet have a unit in your house your opinion carries little to zero weight.

Order one, use it for a week and then let us know 

( now for the 2 year committment response)


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## montag (Mar 10, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> I believe the left arrow=back is currently part of a CE release and not the national release.


What's a CE release and how does one get it?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

montag said:


> What's a CE release and how does one get it?


They explain it on dbstalk.com


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

CE stands for Cutting Edge and they are the public tests of the software. You can be notified when they are available by registering at dbstalk and then subscribing to the thread in the CE forum.

The CE releases are usually every few weeks and available for a window of 11pm to 2am on that Friday and Saturday night.

You choose to get it by forcing your receiver to check for software using remote commands on reboot that you can learn over at dbstalk.

Hope that helps montag.


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## Jebberwocky! (Apr 16, 2005)

Thanks Billy66! I prefer to get my cutting edge info here!


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Jebberwocky! said:


> Thanks Billy66! I prefer to get my cutting edge info here!


That seems a bit odd. This is a Tivo forum and you prefer to get your information about a competitive product on this forum instead of on dbstalk with all of the folks who know and love the HR20?


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I used to think posters who had issues with the HR20, compared with tivo units, were exaggerating.

There is a long thread over at DBSTALK. Many HR20 users only got the first 30 minutes of Greys Anatomy. The speculation is the guide data changed, 1.01 to 1.02 length, while the show was recording and the unit chocked. The tivo powered units recorded the show fine.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

lew said:


> I used to think posters who had issues with the HR20, compared with tivo units, were exaggerating.
> 
> There is a long thread over at DBSTALK. Many HR20 users only got the first 30 minutes of Greys Anatomy. The speculation is the guide data changed, 1.01 to 1.02 length, while the show was recording and the unit chocked. The tivo powered units recorded the show fine.


Once again, some problems exist, firstly this does not make it a BAD unit, perhaps not as good as the current rev of TIVO. But the main thing, just try recording Grey's Anatomy in HD from a local channel without an HR20 (except for the lucky few of course)


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## montag (Mar 10, 2001)

Jebberwocky! said:


> Thanks Billy66! I prefer to get my cutting edge info here!


Ditto. Thanks for all the info Billy and others!


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## pbadss (Aug 14, 2002)

If I upgrade my HR10-250 to the HR20 will I need to provide a phone line for the initial activation?


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

It does appear that the number of recording problems have risen since the new season started. Just the impression I get. I am waiting for my replacement HR20 to come tomorrow after my first HR20's (three-four months old) card reader broke making the unit unusable. Until that happened my experience with the HR20 has been overall pretty good. I still use the HR10 in the same room for OTA and SD recording. 4 tuners is always nice!!!


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The HR20 does not require a phone line for activation.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

pbadss said:


> If I upgrade my HR10-250 to the HR20 will I need to provide a phone line for the initial activation?


No its all done over the satellite now.


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## MrBigglesworth (Dec 25, 2002)

I have had 1 day with my HR20 (moved my beloved H10-250 to the bedroom and now Im jonesing for a 40-50 inch flat panel for the wall in there but thats another issue)

With the Harmony remote I have pretty much mirrored everything that the Tivo did with the same button presses. In the end, what I get is recorded HD content. The HR20 is stupid fast in how it gets from menu to menu, but the menuing system is a bit more complicated than the Tivo. Where Tivo is elegant and fluid in its intuition, the HR20 is a tad clunky, while the Tivo chugs because it is slow in accessing and moving things around. So it isnt a high step up in trade off.

However, if they could get the speed of the HR20 into an MPEG4 capable DirecTivo with ESata, I would be in HEAVEN.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

pbadss said:


> If I upgrade my HR10-250 to the HR20 will I need to provide a phone line for the initial activation?


No, my HR20 activated without a phone line attached and 7 days later it still is not attached and no complaints yet (from the system that is  )


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## jspencer (Dec 23, 2001)

I really didn't want the HR 20 but I was sort of forced into it when they chose to upgrade dish. It is an ok machine but I am not very fond of it. I haven't found to many things on it that made me go "WOW" but I have found things that My Hr 10-250 had that I wish this box possesed. Oh well, I wish it was Tivo based


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

I will make do with the Tivo, as I don't think about the HR20 at all.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

You sure do read and post about it enough for something you don't think about fastlane.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

You think so? 

Enjoy your HR20.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Will do.

On second thought, based on your posts you might not actually be doing much thinking afterall. I stand corrected on your initial statement.


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

fasTLane said:


> I will make do with the Tivo, as I don't think about the HR20 at all.


Enjoy making do with SD programming.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Scooter said:


> Enjoy making do with SD programming.


Hey....until they dump MPEG2 HD, it's (HR10) still got much to offer (not to mention OTA - HD). I think it'll be some time before that happens as D* is gonna want to contact all the remaining HR10 owners and try to get them to upgrade (and notify them that the HD programming they're paying for is not going to be available by a certain date).

If they don't, and simply cutoff MpEG2 ...their switchboards are gonna be going nuts w/some very unhappy peoples.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Before that time, this puppy will be off to greener grassland. 

TiVoHD options are being researched for whenever that day comes.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> If they don't, and simply cutoff MpEG2 ...their switchboards are gonna be going nuts w/some very unhappy peoples.


That day will happen... and it is going to happen a lot sooner then some of you may think it is.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

pbadss said:


> If I upgrade my HR10-250 to the HR20 will I need to provide a phone line for the initial activation?


No. No phone line is needed unles you want to do Pay Per View.

Here is the thread where people are talking about doing the upgrade:

HR10-250 and MPEG4; Upgrade Offer

Lots of success stories there getting this type of deal. Most are able to keep their TiVo's for the old channels and adding a box for the new ones (and old).

They also added 11 more HD channels today for a total of 40+. (9 MPEG2, 4 Locals, 21 last week, 11 this week)

- Craig


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> That day will happen... and it is going to happen a lot sooner then some of you may think it is.


Sorry Ed, but I sincerely doubt it.

...I don't doubt that it eventually _will happen,_ I just doubt that they're simply gonna 'flip a switch' and cut it off w/o contacting and extending offers to the remaining HR10 owners out there (and I'm sure there are a lot of them) that are paying for HD access.

Think about the ramifications of thousands of people suddenly turning on their HD televisions one morning, and finding that all of their HD channels that they're paying for are simply gone ...and they have no idea why.

Think of the phone calls and hostility that will create if, in place of their HD channels they find a notice stating "these channels are no longer available: your bill has been adjusted to reflect the loss of your HD package. In order to continue receiving HD programming, please contact D* to lease our new $199 MPEG4 DVR."

Think of the billing department having to adjust all these bills to reflect the loss of that HD access ...and think of the revenues that D* will lose because of that.

Think of the mass of orders for HR20's that will inundate D* ...all at once ...so that all these folks who didn't even know what 'MPEG4' is can continue to watch HD programming on their HD sets.

Companies just don't do that (even D*). You do not alienate your best customers (and I would hasten a guess that most of those with HD programming are customers paying the highest bills).

I would guess that the majority of HR10 owners out there haven't a clue that an MPEG4 DVR is even available (I imagine it's a very small percentage that actually read these boards) ...D* needs to contact every single one of them and let them know ....well in advance .....that these new options are available to them and that their HD programming will cease to be available.

I've not received a notice from D* ...not a phone call, nor a letter ...nothing.

D* does not want to lose customers and revenues, and if they simply 'turn off' these HD channels without notifying and working to assuage these premier customers, they'd be making a huge mistake.

Even D* is not that stupid.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I agree, there will likely be some effort to contact users of legacy equipment to give advanced notice of the shutoff and provide a path to get new equipment.

An unannounced "flip of the switch" doesn't make much sense.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> ...I don't doubt that it eventually _won't happen,_ ...


Hmm... double negative? Did you mean: "...I don't doubt that it eventually _will happen,_"?

Let's not forget that there are lots of us with plain HD mpeg2-only receivers in addition to the HR10.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

hiker said:


> Hmm... double negative? Did you mean: "...I don't doubt that it eventually _will happen,_"?
> 
> Let's not forget that there are lots of us with plain HD mpeg2-only receivers in addition to the HR10.


LOL...yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, fixed it (recovering from shoulder surgery and the pain meds have me a bit on the stupid side). 

Thanks for catching that.

As far as those HD mpeg2 receivers ...that adds to the fact that it would create an even bigger mess if they just 'cut it off.'


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Sir_winealot said:


> Sorry Ed, but I sincerely doubt it.
> 
> ...I don't doubt that it eventually _will happen,_ I just doubt that they're simply gonna 'flip a switch' and cut it off w/o contacting and extending offers to the remaining HR10 owners out there (and I'm sure there are a lot of them) that are paying for HD access.
> 
> ...


Well... what can I tell you...

Next NFL Season the Sunday Ticket will be MPEG-4 only.
They have a definitive timeline that they have to get their content off teh 72.5 sat and put "somewhere", and that is going to be on the 101/110/119

Where do you think that bandwith comes from?
As you reach a critical mass point, they are going to switch.

It hasn't been a secret for nearly 3 years now, that you were going to have to switch.

So yes... it is going to be a lot sooner, then a lot of you are painting the picture to be.

Given the latest number of HR10-250 systems that are still active (which is right now, very small in relation to the overal HD subscriber base)...

Yes, they are going to bite the bullet... and it is not going to be as painfull to DirecTV as you may think it will be.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> I agree, there will likely be some effort to contact users of legacy equipment to give advanced notice of the shutoff and provide a path to get new equipment.
> 
> An unannounced "flip of the switch" doesn't make much sense.


Never said it wouldn't be "unannounced"... they most certainly will announce it.
Just said that it was going to be "sooner" then a lot of people may think it will be.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Never said it wouldn't be "unannounced"... they most certainly will announce it.
> Just said that it was going to be "sooner" then a lot of people may think it will be.


Would you care to take a guess on how much "sooner" it might be, like a date range ?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

hiker said:


> Would you care to take a guess on how much "sooner" it might be, like a date range ?


I would not be surprised if it isn't completed by the end of Q2, if not Q3.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> I would not be surprised if it isn't completed by the end of Q2, if not Q3.


That's a double/triple negative - so at this point I have no idea what you said


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

hiker said:


> Would you care to take a guess on how much "sooner" it might be, like a date range ?


I would expect that after Sunday Ticket is over they will start with contacting people that have HD but don't have at least 1 MPEG4 reciever and there really won't be that many people left in that category. If my friends are any indication, every single one of them that is HD capable (13 of them) now have an HR20. Many just called up this week after the new channels went live but they all now have at least one MPEG4 capable receiver. There are some that called up to get a 2nd and 3rd one now that the channels are live. So they are covered. By the end of the year, with all the new HD, there just isn't going to be that many "hold outs" that haven't at least got an H20/21 let alone an HR20 added to their mix to get the new channels.

So while next year they may have tens of thousands still with just MPEG2 HD equipment, it's not going to be that many that they can't swap people out quickly.

And to think that DirecTV wouldn't do it just to not piss off customers, you need to think back in history. How about all the people that cable pissed off (and still do) when analog channels move to the digital teir? How about all those that will be forced to get new receivers for switched video? How about Dish telling people that the Voom channels would be going to MPEG4 only and they have 2 months to get a new receiver (not free) or lose them.
Not saying it's right but this happens all the time and the few tens of thousands affected out of 16+ million just gets taken care of. If you piss off a few and they leave so be it, it won't be noticed.


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> It hasn't been a secret for nearly 3 years now, that you were going to have to switch.


Not to us, but Joe Consumer probably has no idea. And to contact Joe well in advance of any switch so as to give him an opportunity to continue _paying D*_ for his D* HD access, is just simple, good business sense.

Now, I realize nobody ever accused D* of being smart, and having good business sense ....but how difficult would this be to implement so as to avoid losing revenue?

Between the HR10's, and H10's there's _plenty of units out there. _ And they don't want to lose this income.

Perhaps you've been told otherwise by your contacts, but I cannot see any reason that D* wouldn't contact all their HD customers _well in advance _ of the mpeg2 shutoff so as to give them the opportunity to upgrade and continue paying for their HD access.

I would imagine they'll also offer this at a discounted price ...if not free ... as incentive to make the switch while locking in another 2 years.

There would be absolutely no reason for them to _not _ give folks plenty of time to get installed _and paying_ before hand ...not rocket science ...it just wouldn't make sense.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

Sir_winealot said:


> Not to us, but Joe Consumer probably has no idea. And to contact Joe well in advance of any switch so as to give him an opportunity to continue _paying D*_ for his D* HD access, is just simple, good business sense.
> 
> Now, I realize nobody ever accused D* of being smart, and having good business sense ....but how difficult would this be to implement so as to avoid losing revenue?
> 
> ...


I think you are misunderstanding Earl. No one is saying DirecTV is just going to flip the switch then say Sorry. I would estimate that by the end of the year there will not be a lot of people with only an HR10 or other Mpeg-2 HD receiver. Most people will start upgrading due to the new channels and when enough customers have done that I fully expect DirecTV to offer free or very cheap upgrades in advance of making the switch. I could easily see this happening in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of next year. How many people are going to sit around for the next 6 months and not get all the new channels from DirecTV in HD. That is a very reasonable time frame. I highly doubt their will still be Mpeg-2 HD channels next fall when football season starts.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

The conversion from MPEG2 to MPEG4 has been happening steadily. They have stated their beginning and endpoints in their quarterly earnings conferences:

A. The NFL ST will still be in the MPEG2 HD for H10/HR10 receivers through the Super Bowl.
B. Beginning August 2008, the NFL ST will be in MPEG4 only.

Here are my guesses as to how they will get from point A to point B.

DIRECTV reported that of nearly 40,000,000 receivers in the field only a small percentage were HR10's or H10's.

Their churn and growth total about 100,000 new receivers (SD & HD) a month. They have expanded the number of installers and added a third installation slot each day at 6 AM. So in the next year they are geared up to install 1 - 2 million receivers.

We have watched in this thread as people got deals on the HR20. The $19 deals for HR10/H10 owners actually started last winter.

So how many of the old MPEG2 boxes still need to be replaced? Only DIRECTV knows.

First came the 150 Carrots: 21 HD Channels, then 11 more, then more and more until they hit their promised 100 this year and up to 150 in 2008.

They are putting the squeeze on offering certain channels only in MPEG4 HD:
Food Network HD 231-1
HGTV-HD 229-1
MDH 332
MGM HD 255
NBA TV HD 601-1
Smithsonian Channel HD 267
Starz Comedy HD 519
Starz Kids & Family HD 518
20+ Regional Sports Networks broadcast nationally.

We are hearing from people getting the new deals that they are backlogged 3-4 weeks in most areas. That may explain why they still have not even issued a press release that D10 is now on. The HD ads have been pulled since August except in markets not maxed out. Even when the ads come back, I bet it will be slowly.

Then comes the stick.

I am betting that as soon as the holiday and Super Bowl surge subside, DIRECTV will start using mailings, and bill inserts. The outbound call script will begin with something like, _"You have qualified for an exciting upgrade!"_

I bet there is a chart up on some manager's wall showing the remaining legacy HD subscribers and their monthly conversion goals. I bet that chart shows "0" remaining in August of 2008. I do believe that HR10's will still be able to recevie SD and OTA HD after that.

- Craig


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## MurrayW (Aug 28, 2005)

milominderbinder said:


> ...
> A. The NFL ST will still be in the MPEG2 HD for H10/HR10 receivers through the Super Bowl.
> B. Beginning August 2008, the NFL ST will be in MPEG4 only.
> ...- Craig


I sure hope they get DLB's on the HR20 before the 2008 NFL season starts. I don't want to have to use 4 HR20's to give me the ability to watch 4 games simultaneously that I can currently do with 2 HR10-250's. Earl since you seem to be in the know on timelines at D* what do you think the chances of DLB's on the HR20's are by Sep '08?

Murray


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Sir_winealot said:


> There would be absolutely no reason for them to _not _ give folks plenty of time to get installed _and paying_ before hand ...not rocket science ...it just wouldn't make sense.


I think they will, I think you misunderstand Earl.

If the plan is shutdown of MPEG2 HD in say July or August (3rd quarter), I'd think contacting people starting in January/Feb is plenty of time. That's 6 months of time.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

Curiously and not to start a war, but why does everyone feel that they will offer the replacements for free? Wouldnt it be the opposite? I would have thought by that time they would say "We know that everyone who wants to change, has" so the ones that havent, either dont care or have another reason for not switching. While I understand the desire to not lose anyone I would think that the decision is going to be very heavily weighted based on how many people still have units in operation. I would think that there is a number where they just finally say, here is the best offer, take it or leave it. I hope not but it seems that they have bent over backward over the last 18 months, and even now they appear to be tightening the purse strings significantly. Like I said, I hope I am wrong but I would like to hear a convincing argument other than, "they owe us".

Thanks


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

jimb726 said:


> Curiously and not to start a war, but why does everyone feel that they will offer the replacements for free? Wouldn't it be the opposite? I would have thought by that time they would say "We know that everyone who wants to change, has" so the ones that haven't, either don't care or have another reason for not switching...


They already did the free deals (after credits) for much of the summer and until the new HD Channels launched.

Even now, people are still reporting $99 or even $19 deals in this thread:

HR10-250 and MPEG4; Upgrade Offer

Right now you can get an HR20 for cheap for the new channels (and old) and keep your TiVo for the old channels. Double the tuners, double the storage.

The free deal seems to have already come and gone but still people can get really good deals.

What happens after the press release finally goes out that the new channels are up?

We will see soon enough.

- Craig


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

MurrayW said:


> I sure hope they get DLB's on the HR20 before the 2008 NFL season starts. I don't want to have to use 4 HR20's to give me the ability to watch 4 games simultaneously that I can currently do with 2 HR10-250's. Earl since you seem to be in the know on timelines at D* what do you think the chances of DLB's on the HR20's are by Sep '08?
> 
> Murray


Just slightly next to zero.

It is not a feature that is in active development.
It is not even on the short list of features to begin development.


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## Scooter (Mar 15, 2000)

Here's what I do when I'm desperate for Dual live buffers, Sunday Ticket for instance: I record one game that I know I want to continue watching and then I select another game I want to watch and I use the previous channel button to swap tuners. As long as one tuner is recording a station you can jump back to the other tuner. I does get a bit messy if you start surfing around to other stations though. It's not perfect by any means, but it is an option.

Scooter


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## MurrayW (Aug 28, 2005)

Scooter said:


> Here's what I do when I'm desperate for Dual live buffers, Sunday Ticket for instance: I record one game that I know I want to continue watching and then I select another game I want to watch and I use the previous channel button to swap tuners. As long as one tuner is recording a station you can jump back to the other tuner. I does get a bit messy if you start surfing around to other stations though. It's not perfect by any means, but it is an option.
> 
> Scooter


Yeah, I am aware of that work around and it sounds like that is what I will need to do next year . What I usually end up doing with my HR10-250's right now is to record 1 game (the Chiefs!) and initially pick 3 others that I think will be good games to watch. As the games progress, the initial 3 that I picked change especially in the last 1/2 hour of the games when the games become more or less interesting.

thanks,
Murray


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## MurrayW (Aug 28, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> Just slightly next to zero.
> 
> It is not a feature that is in active development.
> It is not even on the short list of features to begin development.


Can you give me a little background on why it is not even on the short list? From what I have read, this is pretty high on the wishlist of DirecTV HD users and there are many like me who consider this an important feature. It seems as though there are 2 distinct camp: people either really like DLB's or could care less about them -- there doesn't seem to be any middle ground.

But if this is a highly desired feature by a good portion of the users what is the reason not to want to develop it? Is it because:


It is too hard to do
It is too expensive
It is proprietary to TiVo
They just don't care what their users would like to have
Other

thanks,
Murray


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

Someone with HR20 please explain the channel numbering scheme. It looks like the channel numbers are the same for HD and SD, like 247 for TBS-HD and TBS-SD, 244 for SciFi, etc. When you key in 2 4 7 which version of TBS do you get and how to directly get the other? Or does the SD version completely go away?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

DLB is actually number 9 on the list of features requested by HR20 users.

http://www.sizethis.com/index.php

Hiker, if you enter the channel number you get the HD channel first. Hit channel up and you go to the SD version (which will have the same number)

I think/wish that they would just eliminate channel numbers altogether and just show the network identifier. Ie TBSHD, TBS etc. We're not using dials any longer, so numbering is completely unnecessary.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

hiker said:


> Someone with HR20 please explain the channel numbering scheme. It looks like the channel numbers are the same for HD and SD, like 247 for TBS-HD and TBS-SD, 244 for SciFi, etc. When you key in 2 4 7 which version of TBS do you get and how to directly get the other? Or does the SD version completely go away?


Yes... that is the numbering scheme...
The HD and SD share the same number.

On an HR20 (soon to be the same on the H20), when you key in the number... it will default go to the HD version.

You can still access the SD version by then hitting channel UP, or directly selecting it on the guide.

There is a feature in the CE/Test versions of the code, that give you the options to hide all SD duplicates, so they don't appear in the guide.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

MurrayW said:


> Can you give me a little background on why it is not even on the short list? From what I have read, this is pretty high on the wishlist of DirecTV HD users and there are many like me who consider this an important feature. It seems as though there are 2 distinct camp: people either really like DLB's or could care less about them -- there doesn't seem to be any middle ground.
> 
> But if this is a highly desired feature by a good portion of the users what is the reason not to want to develop it? Is it because:
> 
> ...


Well... I can't share with you all the reasons... but I can share some...

There are a lot of factors that go into the discussion of DLB.. .and there are many of threads that will go a lot deaper...

But the bottom line is... DirecTV made the decision to not include DLB, based on a number of reasons.... their decision to not work on it right now, still are directly tied to the original reasons as well.

Yes... they understand that there is a "large" population of users that would like to have that feature.

No... it is not a "licensing" thing

Yes... "Hard" and "Cost" those all are a factor that goes into the overall decision.

No... it is not that they don't "care"... as the fact that it has not be completely remove from the list, and is still discussed as a possibility...

---

With regards to a middle ground on the issue.... what would the middle ground be? There is a middle ground... like me.

I could care less if it comes or it doesn't come.
If they are there... I may use them.
But after not having them for 2 years... and primarily watching pre-recorded content, I have simple stopped the need/desire to try and watch two live programs at once.

With sports tickers on the football games, baseball/basketball games... the "suspense" of seeing the action... just isn't there anymore for me...

I record the "other" game if there is really something I want to see...


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## coachO (Nov 26, 2004)

Earl, thanks for the information. It really does help quell the feeling that D* just doesn't care about their customers. Between the customer service reps and losing features it is easy to turn to the "dark side". 
I guess I just want my cake and eat it too. On the other hand I am quickly adapting to having 4 tuners. So far, the HR20 channel guide is set for only HD channels and I am recording some things I don't normally view. But sill using my HR10 as my trusty "mule".

Next thing you know we will all want 4 tuners with buffers or QLB!


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## unclebrownie (Dec 31, 2001)

HR 20 seems to do what it is supposed to although it can be a "PIA" to use because the UI is not as good as Tivo , and yes i do miss the DLBs a lot.


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## itzme (Dec 7, 2004)

Earl, Might one of the unmentioned reasons involve D*s desire to use a second buffer for another reason? maybe content of some sort, like ppv?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

itzme said:


> Earl, Might one of the unmentioned reasons involve D*s desire to use a second buffer for another reason? maybe content of some sort, like ppv?


No...

PPV is recorded on demand by the user.
VOD via Broadband connection...

Pushed VOD, respects the usage state of the unit.... So if something is recording on the background tuner, it will not download... and will try again at another time.


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## itzme (Dec 7, 2004)

Earl, please help me understand your reply. You said that pushed VOD tries another time (if the unit is recording something on the other tuner). Well if the unit had dual live buffers, wouldn't we ALWAYS be recording on the other tuner, making VOD impossible for Directtv to push content? I also don't understand what you meant about Broadband. Does the HR20 use broadband (unlike the HR10)?


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

itzme said:


> Earl, please help me understand your reply. You said that pushed VOD tries another time (if the unit is recording something on the other tuner). Well if the unit had dual live buffers, wouldn't we ALWAYS be recording on the other tuner, making VOD impossible for Directtv to push content? I also don't understand what you meant about Broadband. Does the HR20 use broadband (unlike the HR10)?


DirecTiVos push content as well using one of the tuners so it does not make it impossible.

As for broadband VOD requested by the user downloads via the internet. So yes the ethernet port on the back of the unit is active and it can be networked. Also you can use it to listen to music or look at photos from a computer on your network.


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## MurrayW (Aug 28, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> ...With sports tickers on the football games, baseball/basketball games... the "suspense" of seeing the action... just isn't there anymore for me...
> 
> I record the "other" game if there is really something I want to see...


With enough practice, you can train your eyes/mind not to pay attention to the tickers.  And with 30 sec skipping through the huddles you pretty much take care of any in game highlights they might show of another game. I tend to watch a couple of drives of each game then switch to the next one so I usually end up only being about 10 to 15 minutes of real time (not game time) ahead of the game I am the farthest behind on. My wife complains that I just sit on the couch all day on Sunday watching football, but I am actually quite active trying to switch back and forth among all 4 games -- I really get a workout!  This would not be the preferred way a lot of people want to watch the games, but for me it is!

Murray


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

jimb726 said:


> Curiously and not to start a war, but why does everyone feel that they will offer the replacements for free? Wouldnt it be the opposite? I would have thought by that time they would say "We know that everyone who wants to change, has" so the ones that havent, either dont care or have another reason for not switching. While I understand the desire to not lose anyone I would think that the decision is going to be very heavily weighted based on how many people still have units in operation. I would think that there is a number where they just finally say, here is the best offer, take it or leave it. I hope not but it seems that they have bent over backward over the last 18 months, and even now they appear to be tightening the purse strings significantly. Like I said, I hope I am wrong but I would like to hear a convincing argument other than, "they owe us".
> 
> Thanks


I think one of the reasons the box would be offered for free is because the holdouts don't want the HR20. We prefer the HR10-250 or a Tivo mpeg4, so if DirecTV wants to keep this crowd as I believe they do, regardless of what Scott says, they will put out a bunch more carrots  .


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> ...
> Yes... they understand that there is a "large" population of users that would like to have that feature.
> 
> No... it is not a "licensing" thing
> ...


I infer from this that DLB is something that will be hard and expensive for DirecTV to implement. And once again, this tells me that DirecTV did not bother to study the dvr market or what users want most... i.e. this box is built by a company that is not in the dvr business - it's an afterthought. That again is why many folks consider the HR20 to not be in the same class as the HR10-250.

It seems to me that it would be a good feature to turn off the sports ticker on the paid sports packages. I ignore the sports ticker as others mentioned. I also use the 30-sec skip when they go 'back to the studio for an update'. That way I can watch the games later in the day or in the week. That's also one reason I never watch ESPN Classic - they always say what's coming up in the next segment. Who wants to watch a game when they already know what's coming up?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

RS4 said:


> I think one of the reasons the box would be offered for free is because the holdouts don't want the HR20. We prefer the HR10-250 or a Tivo mpeg4, so if DirecTV wants to keep this crowd as I believe they do, regardless of what Scott says, they will put out a bunch more carrots  .


They gave me my HR10-250 for free too RS4. Same reasoning?


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> I think one of the reasons the box would be offered for free is because the holdouts don't want the HR20. We prefer the HR10-250 or a Tivo mpeg4, so if DirecTV wants to keep this crowd as I believe they do, regardless of what Scott says, they will put out a bunch more carrots  .


Must be confusing me with someone else. I personally think the free or nearly free offers will be a flying early next year just as they have been pretty all this year only they will be forward in offering it instead of letting the customers come to them. There is no reason why they won't offer to upgrade people. Now if people refuse to upgrade then they will be out of luck in terms of HD but that will be their choice because DirecTV isn't going to delay the shutdown of MPEG2 HD just because some people refuse to upgrade. It will cost them much more money in not be able to recover the bandwidth for other uses (such as the need to meet the goal of all 210 markets SD locals as terms of the Liberty buyout and losing their lease on 72.5) then it would cost in lost customers that refuse to upgrade. As Earl has mentioned, there is a lot more going on that is pushing the move to MPEG4 then just converting customers.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

itzme said:


> Earl, please help me understand your reply. You said that pushed VOD tries another time (if the unit is recording something on the other tuner). Well if the unit had dual live buffers, wouldn't we ALWAYS be recording on the other tuner, making VOD impossible for Directtv to push content? I also don't understand what you meant about Broadband. Does the HR20 use broadband (unlike the HR10)?


Just like with the TiVo unit... 
If DLB was added to the HR20, it could (and probably should) be coded to detect "user" usage of the tuner... It actually does that now for the primary tuner, if it doesn't see any type of IR for 4+ hours... it thinks no one is there using it.

Just like the TiVo unit.
So PUSHED-VOD, would follow the similar rules (if it was coded to do so).

The DoD (Vod), is primarily via the broadband/ethernet connection. 
Yes, the HR20 is enabled with a network port, that will use your broadband connection if you allow it to do so.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> I infer from this that DLB is something that will be hard and expensive for DirecTV to implement. And once again, this tells me that DirecTV did not bother to study the dvr market or what users want most... i.e. this box is built by a company that is not in the dvr business - it's an afterthought. That again is why many folks consider the HR20 to not be in the same class as the HR10-250.
> 
> It seems to me that it would be a good feature to turn off the sports ticker on the paid sports packages. I ignore the sports ticker as others mentioned. I also use the 30-sec skip when they go 'back to the studio for an update'. That way I can watch the games later in the day or in the week. That's also one reason I never watch ESPN Classic - they always say what's coming up in the next segment. Who wants to watch a game when they already know what's coming up?


Do you think any coding on a device this complex is "easy" or "cheap" to do?
Same goes for the TiVo unit... any development of a "new" feature, isn't easy or inexpensive to do.... as you have to pay for the resources to do it, and take them away from doing something else... aka... expense.

Really... so you have done market research to know what ALL dvr users want... not just those that frequent Forums?

Glad you all can ignore the sports tickers, or have developed work arounds to not be "spoiled" by scoring updates.... what do you do when the announcers verbally let you know the score with out any warning?


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

RS4 said:


> I think one of the reasons the box would be offered for free is because the holdouts don't want the HR20. We prefer the HR10-250 or a Tivo mpeg4, so if DirecTV wants to keep this crowd as I believe they do, regardless of what Scott says, they will put out a bunch more carrots  .


I understand that, I guess I just dont see the logic in giving away something to someone who doesnt want it in the first place. I dont mean that to satrt a fight, but in your case, you have said many times that you wouldnt take a box even if they give it to you because of the commitment. I respect that, certainly your perrogative. Now if I am a company why waste resources on someone who absolutely doesnt want my product? In your case you would have to make a decision, do I want Directv or do I want Tivo. Either one is subjective, but to me by next summer I would certainly think that most informed consumers to whom Directv is more important thatn the delivery portal will have made the switch, and whoever is still at the dance will either have to s**t or get off the pot. So to speak.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

jimb726 said:


> I understand that, I guess I just dont see the logic in giving away something to someone who doesnt want it in the first place. I dont mean that to satrt a fight, but in your case, you have said many times that you wouldnt take a box even if they give it to you because of the commitment. I respect that, certainly your perrogative. Now if I am a company why waste resources on someone who absolutely doesnt want my product? In your case you would have to make a decision, do I want Directv or do I want Tivo. Either one is subjective, but to me by next summer I would certainly think that most informed consumers to whom Directv is more important thatn the delivery portal will have made the switch, and whoever is still at the dance will either have to s**t or get off the pot. So to speak.


I personally believe that DirecTV should give away or sell cheap HR20s to people who have HR10s because they are making the box essentially obsolete. I paid $850 for my HR10 and I would be annoyed if I had to pay another $300 because I can no longer get the HD channels I was getting with my HR10. To me it has nothing to do with whether people like the new box better or worse but the fact that they are making it obsolete.

In my case I already got a free upgrade back in October 2006 so I am happy. I plan on purchasing a new HR20 or HR21 (when available) in the future and I will have no problem paying for it since I already got the upgrade for my HR10.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

bigpuma said:


> I personally believe that DirecTV should give away or sell cheap HR20s to people who have HR10s because they are making the box essentially obsolete. I paid $850 for my HR10 and I would be annoyed if I had to pay another $300 because I can no longer get the HD channels I was getting with my HR10. To me it has nothing to do with whether people like the new box better or worse but the fact that they are making it obsolete.
> 
> In my case I already got a free upgrade back in October 2006 so I am happy. I plan on purchasing a new HR20 or HR21 (when available) in the future and I will have no problem paying for it since I already got the upgrade for my HR10.


I dont agree, obsolete implies it is good for nothing, reached the end of its useful life. Thats not the case here, the unit itself is still a fine piece of equipment, it will recieve all SD channels, will have the MPEG2 hd's for the foreseeable future and it still can recieve OTA HD programming. No it wont be able to decode the MPEG4 signals but thats technology. But to say its obsolete, I dont think that is true.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

jimb726 said:


> I dont agree, obsolete implies it is good for nothing, reached the end of its useful life. Thats not the case here, the unit itself is still a fine piece of equipment, it will recieve all SD channels, will have the MPEG2 hd's for the foreseeable future and it still can recieve OTA HD programming. No it wont be able to decode the MPEG4 signals but thats technology. But to say its obsolete, I dont think that is true.


I was referring to when DirecTV changes the current Mpeg-2 HD channels to Mpeg-4, meaning all HD channels provided via satelite would be switched to Mpeg-4 therefore you would not be able to receive them on the HR10. I think that is at least partially obsolete. Sure you can record OTA HD and SD but that is not as much as it is able to do now.

ETA: I didn't mean DirecTV needs to offer the upgrade free for now but when they start removing the Mpeg-2 feeds of HD channels.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

bigpuma said:


> I was referring to when DirecTV changes the current Mpeg-2 HD channels to Mpeg-4, meaning all HD channels provided via satelite would be switched to Mpeg-4 therefore you would not be able to receive them on the HR10. I think that is at least partially obsolete. Sure you can record OTA HD and SD but that is not as much as it is able to do now.
> 
> ETA: I didn't mean DirecTV needs to offer the upgrade free for now but when they start removing the Mpeg-2 feeds of HD channels.


Sorry, I guess i misunderstood the post. You are correct. :up:


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

bigpuma said:


> I personally believe that DirecTV should give away or sell cheap HR20s to people who have HR10s because they are making the box essentially obsolete....In my case I already got a free upgrade back in October 2006 so I am happy. I plan on purchasing a new HR20 or HR21 (when available) in the future and I will have no problem paying for it since I already got the upgrade for my HR10.


1. I think that the HR10 will still be able to receive SD and OTA HD after the MPEG2 shutoff.
2. People are getting $99 or $19 or even free deals here: HR10-250 and MPEG4; Upgrade Offer 
3. Many are getting the same deal on additional HR20's at least as of today.

- Craig


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

milominderbinder said:


> 1. I think that the HR10 will still be able to receive SD and OTA HD after the MPEG2 shutoff.
> 2. People are getting $99 or $19 or even free deals here: HR10-250 and MPEG4; Upgrade Offer
> 3. Many are getting the same deal on additional HR20's at least as of today.
> 
> - Craig


Of course they are and about half of them want the DTivo back, so they are locking themselves in for 2 years with equipment they don't want.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

No RS4. Half of them want an mpeg4 TiVo. ALL of them want the new HD stations.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> No RS4. Half of them want an mpeg4 TiVo. ALL of them want the new HD stations.


Yup - agreed


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

RS4 said:


> Of course they are and about half of them want the DTivo back, so they are locking themselves in for 2 years with equipment they don't want.


There are actually six key warnings a user should consider, not just one:
- Unless you pay $749, the HR20 will be leased. 
- Adding new equipment requires a 2 year contract commitment. 
- Confirm your work order with the CSR
- Verify your order online
- Verify your changes to your bill online.
- DIRECTV must do the installation.

I think that whenever we provide the warnings, we owe it to the person to tell the whole facts not just part of them.

RS, if you give the link to the Getting a Good Deal on an HR20 link they can see all of the warnings detailed out. It also includes the links they will need for more information.

Take care,

- Craig


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

milominderbinder said:


> There are actually six key warnings a user should consider, not just one:
> - Unless you pay $749, the HR20 will be leased.
> - Adding new equipment requires a 2 year contract commitment.
> - Confirm your work order with the CSR
> ...


Thanks Craig.

I didn't see anything in your link that according to the poll, over half of them will want an mpeg4 DTivo. (BTW, that poll of Earls is quite reflective of the Engadget poll and other threads at dbstalk and here. I read a thread at dbstalk where I calculated that only one third of the repsonders said it was a good replacement for the HR10-250. Earl's poll shows around 42%.)

If you are giving them warnings, don't you think you should tell them up front that chances are you'll not like the box?


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Haven't you been paying attention? It does not matter whether or not you like it. It is the only way to get the new channels. Like a fois gras goose being fed for the slaughter, the menu is somewhat limited. 

Take it or leave it.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

RS4 said:


> Thanks Craig.
> 
> I didn't see anything in your link that according to the poll, over half of them will want an mpeg4 DTivo. (BTW, that poll of Earls is quite reflective of the Engadget poll and other threads at dbstalk and here. I read a thread at dbstalk where I calculated that only one third of the repsonders said it was a good replacement for the HR10-250. Earl's poll shows around 42%.)
> 
> If you are giving them warnings, don't you think you should tell them up front that chances are you'll not like the box?


At the risk of sounding like a broken record is there any chance you would link to these polls. I would like to see them.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

There are three recent polls at DBSTalk:

Would you trade the HR20 for a TiVo
As of right now: 51%/49% in favor of a TiVo (~600 voting)

If the HR10-250 TIVO had mpeg4 HD would you prefer it to the HR20-700
51%/43%/6% (TiVo/HR20/Don't Care) ~400 voting

Would You Recommend the HR20 To a Friend
93%/7% (HR20/TiVo) ~800 voting

I would still like RS4 to link to the polls he is referencing, so we can see their age (to identify what point in the HR20 life cycle it was in)....


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> There are three recent polls at DBSTalk:
> 
> Would you trade the HR20 for a TiVo
> As of right now: 51%/49% in favor of a TiVo (~600 voting)
> ...


Thanks Earl, that is exactly why I would like to see the links in his post. It gives it more context and I don't have to take his word for it. Not that I don't trust RS4.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> There are three recent polls at DBSTalk:
> 
> Would you trade the HR20 for a TiVo
> As of right now: 51%/49% in favor of a TiVo (~600 voting)
> ...


I was referring to your poll plus a thread I did some calculations on plus the Engadget poll.

The dbstalk thread was something I saw a week or two ago, so it was recent. The OP had a question something to the effect that now that the HR20 had been out for a year, would you recommend it as a replacement for the HR10-250 as he was considering getting one. At that time, as I recall, there were at least 3 pages of replies.

I simply categorized the replies into yes, no, and in-between. There were around 30 unique folks responding - about 1/3 said yes, they would recommend it, 6 said no they wouldn't and the others were in between - some saying it was the only way to get mpeg4, others saying to keep it as insurance, others saying use the HR20 only for mpeg4 and Tivo for the rest, and the final middle area was it was okay.

Those numbers from the thread I sampled are about the same as your poll and the engadget poll.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

The Engadget Poll:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/27/poll-is-directvs-hr20-ready-for-primetime/

And Milo's: "Would your recommend..."
Poll was a result of the thread you refering to... IIRC


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

ebonovic said:


> The Engadget Poll:
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/27/poll-is-directvs-hr20-ready-for-primetime/
> 
> And Milo's: "Would your recommend..."
> Poll was a result of the thread you refering to... IIRC


That cant be the thread he is talking about, unless I am reading it wrong, only 24% said its not ready and the majority of the respondants 41% said it was. Or am I missing something?


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> ...
> And Milo's: "Would your recommend..."
> Poll was a result of the thread you refering to... IIRC


If you are referring that to me, no the sampling I took was not from a poll. It was instead a regular thread.


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## jimb726 (Jan 4, 2007)

RS4 said:


> If you are referring that to me, no the sampling I took was not from a poll. It was instead a regular thread.


Thats what I figured. :up:


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

The point is that the majority of Tivo owners don't think the product is better than a Tivo, just as I have been saying for months.

DirecTV offers no choice at the moment. But, is that a wise move? I don't think so.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> If you are referring that to me, no the sampling I took was not from a poll. It was instead a regular thread.


What I was referring too.... was the Poll Milo started, was a result of the "question" raised in the thread you were referring to that you collected your data from.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> What I was referring too.... was the Poll Milo started, was a result of the "question" raised in the thread you were referring to that you collected your data from.


Oh, ok. Since I am interested in a Tivo or a unit perceived to be better then Tivo, his poll, while interesting, did not address my area of interest.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

RS4 said:


> Oh, ok. Since I am interested in a Tivo or a unit perceived to be better then Tivo, his poll, while interesting, did not address my area of interest.


I just have to ask, why do you care? Does the HR20 have to be "better" then Tivo?

DirecTV's sub numbers keep going up and churn is down. All the while 125,000 (and growing) DirecTivo subs are lost every quarter. No indication if they all leave DirecTV and being that churn is actually down I'd say no. And this is with over 2 years of no SD DirecTivo option and over a year of no HD DirecTivo option. And record HD sub growth.

Dish seems to be doing just fine with their DVR which many would say is not "better" then the Tivo. And cable with their tens of millions of non-Tivo DVR subs seem to be doing fine despite definately not being "better" then Tivo.

So again, please enlighten us in what reality does it matter if Tivo is "better" or not? Does it matter if HR20 owners would prefer a Tivo if they don't leave DirecTV? Of course it doesn't matter. You're really starting to reach now.


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## KurtBJC (Jan 2, 2007)

I have been engaged in a fairly long discourse with DirecTV support on this issue. I really am hoping that other people are doing the same. Essentially what I have said (and it's true; I'm not just getting blustery here) is that although I think DirecTV is great, and have been a subscriber for nearly ten years, I will drop DirecTV in a heartbeat if Comcast suddenly comes up with an HD channel lineup better than what's available on MPEG-2 through DirecTV, or if DirecTV drops its MPEG-2 HD channels. 

I am angry over DirecTV's failure to offer a TiVo alternative to its DVR; and although the customer service people have repeatedly tried to pitch the new DVR to me I have made it very clear that I will not accept it. I won't accept it for a price; I won't accept it for free; I want a TiVo; I would pay good money for a TiVo; and if they won't provide it I will just move to digital cable, with all of the bad service and inconvenience that represents, because it will allow me to go on using TiVo indefinitely. 

My fear is that they've convinced themselves that TiVo versus a crappy DVR is really not an important difference; and that, if they force their customers to accept their DVR, the customers will follow along. I am trying to make the case that this is not so; that DirecTV can survive only by continuing to offer superior service; and that the distinction between TiVo and their piece-of-crap unit is important enough for them to lose subscribers over. It certainly will be the cause of my termination of DirecTV service, if they don't get their act together on this. 

So, if you're a TiVo fundamentalist like me, try writing to customer service; and don't let them lure you into some sort of special deal on the new DVR (I had to go about four rounds with them before they stopped trying to pull that switch), but keep pressing the point and ask them to forward your e-mail to the people who make decisions about this sort of thing.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I now have 3 HR20's and 1 HR10. At first I was reluctant to make the switch, but while I still prefer some things about the TiVo, I'd probably go with the HR20 if I had to choose one over the other. Pros and cons:

HR20 Pros:
Many more HD channels.
Increased recording capacity due to mpeg-4 locals and ease of adding external hard drive.
Ability to use the menu and list with the show (either live or recorded) still playing (although I wish that could be turned off when I turn it on in the middle of a game I'm recording, or a show that I'm weeks behind on).
Only records first run episodes that are actually first run episodes, so my SP's don't pick up dozens of Simpsons reruns with generic guide data throughout the week.
Space remaining indicator.
Brings up both options to cancel when a request creates a 3-way conflict.
I actually like the 30-second "slip" sometimes. I don't feel as left out of friends' conversations about funny commercials any more.

HR10 Pros:
DLB's - Would like to have as an option, but carries very little weight for me personally.
Keep At Most with Save Until I Delete works the way I'd like it to - stops recording new episodes once it reaches the limit. (HR20 deletes the oldest)
30-second skip.
Skip-to-tick a lot easier to use.
Guide grid with side-by-side option.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

RS,

Why don't you give all 6 key warnings? Why not tell the whole truth?


milominderbinder said:


> There are actually six key warnings a user should consider, not just one:
> - Unless you pay $749, the HR20 will be leased.
> - Adding new equipment requires a 2 year contract commitment.
> - Confirm your work order with the CSR
> ...


Also, I added this link under resources:

Would you Recommend the HR20 to a Freind? Poll of 767 HR20 users: 92% say "Yes".

I never could find your poll that said 24% of HR20 users liked the HR20. So I ran this one. To me the only test of a product is if real users would recommend the existing product to a friend.

Also, did you see that the CIR rollout started last week? The Channels I Receive filter has been the number one request for the HR20. That is by far my biggest request.

Finally, it will be interesting to see how people feel after the rollout of VOD in the next couple of weeks. They will find they have 1,000 added choices. I never thought I would use Video on Demand but we have downloaded on average one movie extra a week using it.

- Craig


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

KurtBJC said:


> I have been engaged in a fairly long discourse with DirecTV support on this issue. I really am hoping that other people are doing the same. Essentially what I have said (and it's true; I'm not just getting blustery here) is that although I think DirecTV is great, and have been a subscriber for nearly ten years, I will drop DirecTV in a heartbeat if Comcast suddenly comes up with an HD channel lineup better than what's available on MPEG-2 through DirecTV, or if DirecTV drops its MPEG-2 HD channels.
> 
> I am angry over DirecTV's failure to offer a TiVo alternative to its DVR; and although the customer service people have repeatedly tried to pitch the new DVR to me I have made it very clear that I will not accept it. I won't accept it for a price; I won't accept it for free; I want a TiVo; I would pay good money for a TiVo; and if they won't provide it I will just move to digital cable, with all of the bad service and inconvenience that represents, because it will allow me to go on using TiVo indefinitely.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## annenoe (Oct 19, 2003)

Had my HR20-700 installed this weekend. We moved the HR10-250 to another room.

So far, eh, good and bad. The range of HD channels is definitely good - and my pic is clearer (my OTA is good, but not 100%).

The bad...
The UI is definitely NOT better - but being used to tivo, it's to be expected. Do I hate it? No, just isn't as slick as tivo.
Since Sunday install, I've had to unplug reboot twice - the box stops accepting remote commands.
Since Sunday install, I've had various sound drop outs. Annoying but not a deal breaker.

It's 6 of one, 1/2 a dozen of the other. The HD is very seductive.

At this point, if someone told me I had to give up one of the boxes, either the HR10 or the HR20, I actually would have to think about it. I really do like the expanded HD programming.


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

The HR20 will never be the preferred DVR until is has DLB, period. I've tried using it as my main DVR, but I just can't. I keep going back to my HDTiVo. Plus, the elegant simplicity of the TiVo interface is just plain better in most respects. Sure, the HR20 has all the new HD channels and has a few other advantages, but it still needs work. I am impressed that D* releases updates regularly, but it still needs DLB.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I can understand that DLB is important for many, especially sports fans, but for me, it's a non-issue. Nevertheless I'd like to see DirecTV support it. I'd much rather see them fix the Channels I Receive bug, which bites me almost every day.

The UI is a bit strange (you can't get to all of it from one place as you can on TiVo) but it's ok. It does things TiVo doesn't.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

After being with HR20-100 about 3+ months, I now ended up using HR10 as a backup recording for it due to too many "canceled due to no longer in the guide" or the likes....


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

milominderbinder said:


> RS,
> 
> Why don't you give all 6 key warnings? Why not tell the whole truth?
> Also, I added this link under resources:
> ...


Craig, once again you are in a Tivo forum trying to convert Tivo owners. I'm always surprised that the forum owners and the moderator allow that, especially in light of the polls showing Tivo users still prefer the Tivo over the HR20. Look at Earls posts, they are much more relevant then yours which did not even reference the Tivo.

Also remind them that your suggestion of keeping the HR10-250 is giving another $60 a year to a company that still has a second-rated dvr according to Earl's polls and all of the other threads I've read. So, in effect, you're saying reward this company for mediocre equipment.

It's fine to encourage all of the folks you want, but be honest with them. But, let them know that more than half of them want an mpeg4 Tivo, so they can make an honest decision. I certainly agree that the whole truth is the way to go.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

RS4 said:


> ......
> 
> Also remind them that your suggestion of keeping the HR10-250 is giving another $60 a year to a company that still has a second-rated dvr according to Earl's polls and all of the other threads I've read. ....... mediocre equipment.
> 
> .....But, let them know that more than half of them want an mpeg4 Tivo, so they can make an honest decision. I certainly agree that the whole truth is the way to go.


Amen


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

RS4 said:


> Craig, once again you are in a Tivo forum trying to convert Tivo owners. I'm always surprised that the forum owners and the moderator allow that, especially in light of the polls showing Tivo users still prefer the Tivo over the HR20. Look at Earls posts, they are much more relevant then yours which did not even reference the Tivo.
> 
> Also remind them that your suggestion of keeping the HR10-250 is giving another $60 a year to a company that still has a second-rated dvr according to Earl's polls and all of the other threads I've read. So, in effect, you're saying reward this company for mediocre equipment.
> 
> It's fine to encourage all of the folks you want, but be honest with them. But, let them know that more than half of them want an mpeg4 Tivo, so they can make an honest decision. I certainly agree that the whole truth is the way to go.


The "votes" are one thing... but the reasons for the votes are another.

The responses to why people vote the way they do... is what is the "meat" of those threads/polls.

If you read the posts.... A LOT of people gave the edge to one box over the other because of 1 or 2 things....

That is a FAR FAR CRY... from people selecting one because one is mediocre and one is not.

A lot of the people the voted... also did so assuming things that this fictious new DTiVo would have all the featuers of a Series 3.... anyone want to bet that if one is built, it would not have all the features?

There were an awfull lot of "yes, buts.." in those replies.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> The "votes" are one thing... but the reasons for the votes are another.
> 
> The responses to why people vote the way they do... is what is the "meat" of those threads/polls.
> 
> ...


Here is yet another poll showing that owners prefer the Tivo Favorite Box poll

If you take one of the longer threads like I did and dissect it, or look at engadget, or other threads here, the sentiment is generally the same - there are always people who prefer the HR20, but the majority wants a Tivo HD Mpeg4. No matter how you slice it, the Tivo is always the winner among Tivo owners.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

RS4 that is so statistically inaccurate. I would make a pretty clear assumption that only those who own or owned a TIVO would ever want a new TIVO. Sadly for TIVO that was never a particularly large number. DirecTV has a huge customer base that has never owned a TIVO who will be more than impressed by the HR20. In addition a lot of users at DBSTalk are TIVO owners that again does not represent the population in general.

Now as always you tend to send me off track. My position is that TIVO is better but HR20 is more than good enough and gives you access to the new channels. There is no reason for you to be so passionately anti-HR20 in my opinion. Supporting TIVO does not automatically mean you have to be anti HR20 - in my opinion of course.

I for one am not trying to convert anyone, I am trying to belay you convincing TIVO owners that the HR20 has no merit.


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## Jeremy517 (Aug 30, 2005)

RS4 said:


> Here is yet another poll showing that owners prefer the Tivo Favorite Box poll
> 
> If you take one of the longer threads like I did and dissect it, or look at engadget, or other threads here, the sentiment is generally the same - there are always people who prefer the HR20, but the majority wants a Tivo HD Mpeg4. No matter how you slice it, the Tivo is always the winner among Tivo owners.


Just because the majority say they'd prefer a TiVo doesn't mean that they dislike their HR20s. Most people seem to find it very close between the two. Most people who say they prefer the TiVo say that it just has a slight edge. Most people who say they prefer the HR-20 says it just has a slight edge. You're making it sound like most people would get out of their commitments because they hate the HR-20, which simply isn't true.


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## Mike Lang (Nov 17, 1999)

After a month of trying to like my HR20, it's been designated as the red-headed stepchild of the home theater used only to record what the TiVo HD and HR10-250 can't.


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## tlrowley (Jun 10, 2004)

Mike Lang said:


> After a month of trying to like my HR20, it's been designated as the red-headed stepchild of the home theater used only to record what the TiVo HD and HR10-250 can't.


I'm with you, Mike. I *want* to like the HR20 - I love the new Mpeg4 channels - but the box itself is making it very difficult to like it. I can't remember ever missing a recording on my (fully upgraded & hacked) HR10s - I've had reboots (that seem disk based), but never just an outright refusal to record, like I get on the HR20. I've had so many "unexpected error (3)" that they're not unexpected anymore! I'd accept the clunky interface, and the lack of DLB, but a DVR has *got* to record reliably, and the HR20 simply doesn't.

The HR20 is now my L&O:CI (on USAHD) and Stargate: Atlantis (on SciFiHD) box.

Tracey


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## Rigelian (May 21, 2003)

I've always wondered about the unexpected error problem, I've had two when I first got the HR20 and then none ever since. However, the biggest non-recording error I got was the someone in the household cancelled your program error that I got with the HR10-250. That one drove me crazy.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

Mike Lang said:


> After a month of trying to like my HR20, it's been designated as the red-headed stepchild of the home theater used only to record what the TiVo HD and HR10-250 can't.


This is exactly the solution that many are taking.

- Craig


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

tlrowley said:


> I'm with you, Mike. I *want* to like the HR20 - I love the new Mpeg4 channels - but the box itself is making it very difficult to like it. I can't remember ever missing a recording on my (fully upgraded & hacked) HR10s - I've had reboots (that seem disk based), but never just an outright refusal to record, like I get on the HR20. I've had so many "unexpected error (3)" that they're not unexpected anymore! I'd accept the clunky interface, and the lack of DLB, but a DVR has *got* to record reliably, and the HR20 simply doesn't.
> 
> The HR20 is now my L&O:CI (on USAHD) and Stargate: Atlantis (on SciFiHD) box.
> 
> Tracey


If you are getting "unexpected errors" then PLEASE go to DBSTalk and report it. Give as much detail as you can. There is a dedicated sticky thread in the CE forum to try to track this issue down. While I personally have never seen it there are some users that have had it. Doesn't appear to be massively widespread but it's still a problem. DirecTV wants all the details so they can try to track it down. For the most part I think it's fubar guide data but the HR20 is choking on it which means DirecTV needs to figure out why and fix it (either the guide data, HR20 or both). Only by reporting it can they do that.

So again, please, any problems like this please report on DBSTalk with tons of details as requested in that thread.


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## jaypb (Dec 10, 2003)

tlrowley said:


> I'm with you, Mike. I *want* to like the HR20 - I love the new Mpeg4 channels - but the box itself is making it very difficult to like it. I can't remember ever missing a recording on my (fully upgraded & hacked) HR10s - I've had reboots (that seem disk based), but never just an outright refusal to record, like I get on the HR20. I've had so many "unexpected error (3)" that they're not unexpected anymore! I'd accept the clunky interface, and the lack of DLB, but a DVR has *got* to record reliably, and the HR20 simply doesn't.
> 
> The HR20 is now my L&O:CI (on USAHD) and Stargate: Atlantis (on SciFiHD) box.
> 
> Tracey


+1

Since June, I've only used my HR20 for channels I CAN NOT get on my 4 HDTIVO's OR if I can't FIT anything else on my other Tivos (SD or HD).

I'm sure it'll be more of the same for now...until I either lose an HDTIVO due to age/failure or some newer features/functionality come to the HR20.


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## AVPhan (Oct 20, 2004)

jaypb said:


> +1
> 
> Since June, I've only used my HR20 for channels I CAN NOT get on my 4 HDTIVO's OR if I can't FIT anything else on my other Tivos (SD or HD).
> 
> I'm sure it'll be more of the same for now...until I either lose an HDTIVO due to age/failure or some newer features/functionality come to the HR20.


+1.

If it wasn't of:
1. Investment on HR10 (Paid full price when first came out) + additional disk.
2. Needs MLB EI and ST.

I would have gone else where.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Jeremy517 said:


> Just because the majority say they'd prefer a TiVo doesn't mean that they dislike their HR20s. Most people seem to find it very close between the two. Most people who say they prefer the TiVo say that it just has a slight edge. Most people who say they prefer the HR-20 says it just has a slight edge. You're making it sound like most people would get out of their commitments because they hate the HR-20, which simply isn't true.


I see a lot of posts like the four or so above this complaining. I'm not making up the numbers - read almost any thread with significant responses and I'm sure you'd come to the same conclusion. I believe there are around 20% that don't like it at all.
I think there are somewhere around another 20% with the sentiments expressed above. That to me is a strong dislike.

The thing is, DirecTV gave us Tivos that many of us like, and according to what I read here and elsewhere, their current offering does not improve (and in many minds does not even match) on the Tivo. So, that means Tivo users are locking in for 2 more years with equipment that they don't like as well as the Tivo.

I think a more reflective poll would be:

How do you think the HR20 relates to the HR10-250?
It's better - I don't need the Tivo
It's terrible - give me back my Tivo
It's the only game in town for mpeg4
Keep the Tivo, only use HR20 for mpeg4
Keep the Tivo, record everything on it (that is possible) and also on the HR20
It's okay - I'm neutral
No opinion


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Your asking a different question there though RS4. If the question is "do you prefer the HR10" it's quite different than "Is the HR20 a good enough unit for the new channels" 

If you ask the right question you'll always get the right answer.

+ once more, asking a community populated by TIVO users (here and DBSTALK) is not balanced.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

FWIW, Cnet user ratings gave the DirecTivo a 5.8/10 vs. a 4.2/10 for the HR20... not that it matters.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

fasTLane said:


> FWIW, Cnet user ratings gave the DirecTivo a 5.8/10 vs. a 4.2/10 for the HR20... not that it matters.


That raiting for the HR20, also goes back to the very first day of the HR20...

And the box today... is no where near the same as it was 14 months ago... nor 9 months ago, or even 6 months ago.

Same can be said for the DTiVo, to a marginal degree.. (it hasn't gone through as much transition since it's releases, and the poling started)


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Some respondees are current.

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...065196.html?tag=srtdate&ord=creationDate+desc

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...842839.html?tag=srtdate&ord=creationDate+desc


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Yes... some are... but there are also a LOT that are no where near being current.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> That raiting for the HR20, also goes back to the very first day of the HR20...


If you do the math for the last month or two the rating is actually even worse than average. The ratings on CNET do not support the claim that the HR20 is getting any better. I imagine some helpful folks will make a point to "correct" that now.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

A lot of imagining going on


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

nrc said:


> If you do the math for the last month or two the rating is actually even worse than average. The ratings on CNET do not support the claim that the HR20 is getting any better. I imagine some helpful folks will make a point to "correct" that now.


That's the magic of anonymous voting systems....

You can vote it high to change the numbers.... or you can vote it low... to try and bring them down...


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ebonovic said:


> That's the magic of anonymous voting systems....
> 
> You can vote it high to change the numbers.... or you can vote it low... to try and bring them down...


There's really nothing in the recent CNET reviews to date that suggests that anyone has made a deliberate effort to influence the numbers.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

I can agree there. The recent counts are too low to suggest "campaigning".


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