# UK TiVo Bricking Scandal discussed on TWiT



## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Starts about 1h 10mins in.

Video: http://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp4.../twit/twit0289/twit0289_h264b_864x480_500.mp4


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Just watched the segment.

The only British guest, editor of Wired UK (IIRC) (?), said he had never seen TiVo in the UK, ever. He has _never_ even met anyone who has TiVo; doesn't get the 'fuss'. (Please watch it and let me know your thoughts). (I'm sure the guy meant well, but just didn't have a clue what he was talking about!)

American host Tom Merrit (rightly) annoyed at TiVo for being ungood to its 'lifetime' subscribers.

----

*An aside*

Now that I've had a few days to mull over this whole strategy (of discontinuing the EPG) and...

*..my blood is boiling*. I'm guessing that TiVo PR will expect us to just 'go away'. How _dare_ they do this to us?

I *cannot* forgive TiVo for this. Rest assured, TiVo's _brand_ is going to get the kicking it deserves. Between us, we need to enlighten all the major tech news outlets about TiVo's behaviour.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Scandal? Seriously?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Carl, you've been accused of sounding smug or being a changed person a few times recently. You might want to think how your postings come over before hitting "Reply".


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Just watched the segment.
> 
> The only British guest, editor of Wired UK (IIRC) (?), said he had never seen TiVo in the UK, ever. He has _never_ even met anyone who has TiVo; doesn't get the 'fuss'. (Please watch it and let me know your thoughts). (I'm sure the guy meant well, but just didn't have a clue what he was talking about!)


I agree. At least get somebody on who _has_ a clue! They seemed to believe that people will just be able to upgrade at a discount, so "no big deal". Sorry, not the case.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

-


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

Just waffle.


Alek


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Just watched the segment.
> 
> The only British guest, editor of Wired UK (IIRC) (?), said he had never seen TiVo in the UK, ever. He has _never_ even met anyone who has TiVo; doesn't get the 'fuss'. (Please watch it and let me know your thoughts). (I'm sure the guy meant well, but just didn't have a clue what he was talking about!)
> 
> ...


I suspect that Nate was in primary school when TiVo came out!


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> American host Tom Merrit (rightly) annoyed at TiVo for being ungood to its 'lifetime' subscribers.
> .


Just watched it and at least Tom Merrit appreciated what the issue was.
It is interesting that he as an American appreciated the impact of being forced out of a 'lifetime' offer on a TiVo, but even he did not know that it will leave some owners with no TiVo service who live outside a virgin cable area.


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## geekspeak (Oct 1, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Carl, you've been accused of sounding smug or being a changed person a few times recently. You might want to think how your postings come over before hitting "Reply".


At least this forum has an "ignore poster" option. Keeps the posts down by a few thousands  Same old stuff keeps coming up in other posters quoted texts though


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Major dude said:


> Just watched it and at least Tom Merrit appreciated what the issue was.
> It is interesting that he as an American appreciated the impact of being forced out of a 'lifetime' offer on a TiVo, but even he did not know that it will leave some owners with no TiVo service who live outside a virgin cable area.


Definitely, it was interesting. Good to see some perspective. Our grievances are legitimate.

What TiVo's doing is appalling, it just creates so much bad faith.

Suggest that people consider setting up a Google Alert for 'TiVo uk' or 'TiVo Virgin'. For every news article posted, make yourselves heard in the comments.

The Wired UK guy is on Twitter, if anyone uses that. Though, that's of limited value - it's hard to get your point across in 140 characters.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

One think people can do now (if they want) is:

Get the WOT (Web of Trust) plugin for Firefox
Give sites like www.tivo.co.uk a 'scam' rating and let future customers know what a mendacious, untrustworthy organisation TiVo is.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Carl, you've been accused of sounding smug or being a changed person a few times recently. You might want to think how your postings come over before hitting "Reply".


There was nothing smug about that. I happily back any campaign to get them to change their mind, or allow the use of another source for the data. I was one of the first to sign the petition linked to hereabouts.

This is simply _not_ a 'scandal'. That's just hyperbole.

It's bad, yes. It's not nice for those with S1 unit. However, there's no need for over-reaction.



Jo.Cassady said:


> One think people can do now (if they want) is:
> 
> Get the WOT (Web of Trust) plugin for Firefox
> Give sites like www.tivo.co.uk a 'scam' rating and let future customers know what a mendacious, untrustworthy organisation TiVo is.


Again... seriously? You're advocating that people give a _perfectly legitimate_ site and company a 'scam' rating for what is basically a _business_ decision; albeit one you don't agree with. You see nothing at least _morally_ wrong with that? 

Like I said, a complete over-reaction which, again IMO, will do your position not one shred of good. I would recommend anyone from the "Save Our S1 Tivo" camp distance themselves from this sort of activity if they want to be take _at all_ seriously.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Jo.Cassady said:


> One think people can do now (if they want) is:
> 
> Get the WOT (Web of Trust) plugin for Firefox
> Give sites like www.tivo.co.uk a 'scam' rating and let future customers know what a mendacious, untrustworthy organisation TiVo is.


I was with you until that last post. TiVo aren't covering themselves in glory with this move but liars and scammers? Really? I guess deep down I'm willing to cut them some slack for continuing support for S1 boxes this long, through many rumours of pulling out of the UK.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Jo.Cassady said:


> One think people can do now (if they want) is:


Hopefully that was as carthartic as you imagined. Now get rid of it before some idiot actually does it.

Jesus this place has gone crazy in my absence. Thank God Pete's still the same


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> The Wired UK guy is on Twitter, if anyone uses that. Though, that's of limited value - it's hard to get your point across in 140 characters.


A couple of us from here have exchanged some tweets with him this evening.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Trinitron said:


> I was with you until that last post. TiVo aren't covering themselves in glory with this move but liars and scammers? Really? I guess deep down I'm willing to cut them some slack for continuing support for S1 boxes this long, through many rumours of pulling out of the UK.


You do realise that people in the USA who originally bought a lifetime sub _still_ have a lifetime sub, even though it is no longer offered to new subscribers?

In TiVo's early days, I gave them £200 upfront for a lifetime subscription. It's not unreasonable to expect this.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

cwaring said:


> . .This is simply _not_ a 'scandal'. That's just hyperbole. . . .


Err yes it is

Large company with lots of expert resources agrees a long term contract thinking it will make money and then decides it can screw the other parties to the contract when they realise they got their sums wrong.

That's *scandal*ous behaviour. They will of course get away with it but hopefully it'll be a pyrrhic victory as their reputation hits the lower reaches of the sewer system.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Hopefully that was as carthartic as you imagined. Now get rid of it before some idiot actually does it.
> 
> Jesus this place has gone crazy in my absence. Thank God Pete's still the same


Why is the notion of flagging them as 'untrustworthy', idiotic? I'm only suggesting that people tell _the truth_ about _their_ experiences.

I remember choosing TiVo over Sky Plus, partly because I didn't want to give Murdoch/Fox an extra £10/month forever. I understand that TiVo have a duty to make money for their shareholders. If they're going to deceive people, why shouldn't I warn other consumers?


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Steve_K said:


> Err yes it is
> 
> Large company with lots of expert resources agrees a long term contract thinking it will make money and then decides it can screw the other parties to the contract when they realise they got their sums wrong.
> 
> That's *scandal*ous behaviour. They will of course get away with it but hopefully it'll be a pyrrhic victory as their reputation hits the lower reaches of the sewer system.


Very well put.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Why is the notion of flagging them as 'untrustworthy', idiotic? I'm only suggesting that people tell _the truth_ about _their_ experiences.
> 
> I remember choosing TiVo over Sky Plus, partly because I didn't want to give Murdoch/Fox an extra £10/month forever. I understand that TiVo have a duty to make money for their shareholders. If they're going to deceive people, why shouldn't I warn other consumers?


They've been absent from this country for 5 or 6 years. We should be grateful they kept Tribune feeing us the data. I obviously don't have figures, but I'd be surprised if the monthly subscribers made that worthwhile.

Lifetimers paid for the lifetime of the service. That's now ending.

Very, very sad. I'm as gutted as anyone, but TiVo have acted honourably.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Steve_K said:


> Err yes it is


Er... no it's not.

We could go on like this for days 



> Large company ...


Well that's one way of putting it. There is a more _realistic and sensible_ way. 



Raisltin Majere said:


> They've been absent from this country for 5 or 6 years. We should be grateful they kept Tribune feeing us the data. I obviously don't have figures, but I'd be surprised if the monthly subscribers made that worthwhile.
> 
> Lifetimers paid for the lifetime of the service. That's now ending.
> 
> Very, very sad. I'm as gutted as anyone, but TiVo have acted honourably.





> ..their reputation hits the lower reaches of the sewer system.


Their reputation, at least amongst people with some common sense, will remain entirely intact.



Jo.Cassady said:


> In TiVo's early days, I gave them £200 upfront for a lifetime subscription. It's not unreasonable to expect this.


And the "lifetime" of the EPG data covered by your payment, ends (with more than 100 days notice) on June 1, 2011. End of story.



Jo.Cassady said:


> ..people tell _the truth_ about _their_ experiences.


The truth is as told by Raisltin Majere, above.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> They've been absent from this country for 5 or 6 years. We should be grateful they kept Tribune feeing us the data. I obviously don't have figures, but I'd be surprised if the monthly subscribers made that worthwhile.
> 
> Lifetimers paid for the lifetime of the service. That's now ending.
> 
> Very, very sad. I'm as gutted as anyone, but TiVo have acted honourably.


Were their financial planning people just _really_ incompetent? Suppose, for the sake of argument, they got 30,000 paying £200 up front. That's £6 million* + interest*.

Shouldn't they have spent the first few million £ on infrastructure?

With all due respect, have you lived in the USA? TiVo continue to be a _thriving_ enterprise. They neglected the UK market.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

geekspeak said:


> At least this forum has an "ignore poster" option. Keeps the posts down by a few thousands  Same old stuff keeps coming up in other posters quoted texts though


how do I turn the *ignore* thing on? I don't read his walls of text, but would be good to make it disappear.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

What if for the sake of argument they only had one?

What if for the sake of argument they had a partner in the UK that royally screwed them over?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


> They've been absent from this country for 5 or 6 years.


TiVo UK closed in, I think, 2003. May have been 2002.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

TCM2007 said:


> TiVo UK closed in, I think, 2003. May have been 2002.


I had typed 'best part of ten years' but that seemed an awfully long time.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> With all due respect, have you lived in the USA? TiVo continue to be a _thriving_ enterprise. They neglected the UK market.


Actually I don't think TiVo have ever posted a profit, and their losses in the last year or two have been going through the roof. In their last financial statement they lost $21m in the previous three months alone.

TiVo have done nothing wrong here; they kept the service going well beyond what anyone back in 2002/3 when they pulled out of the UK expected them to. The "lifetime" thing is a complete red herring based on a misunderstanding of what it meant (it meant no more payments for the lifetime of the box, not that the service would continue for ever and ever).

Your anger is misplaced.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Actually I don't think TiVo have ever posted a profit, and their losses in the last year or two have been going through the roof. In their last financial statement they lost $21m in the previous three months alone.
> 
> TiVo have done nothing wrong here; they kept the service going well beyond what anyone back in 2002/3 when they pulled out of the UK expected them to. The "lifetime" thing is a complete red herring based on a misunderstanding of what it meant (it meant no more payments for the lifetime of the box, not that the service would continue for ever and ever).
> 
> Your anger is misplaced.


Sure, i get that! My box is _still_ very much alive. (I didn't think lifetime referred to _my_ lifetime, LOL)

_Perhaps_ my anger is misplaced; it's good to engage in sensible discussion, I'm willing to hear everyone's views. (i am yet to be convinced that my anger is misplaced, though)

--
When they "pulled out" in 2003, they were still happy to take our money. 
--
They posted losses? Perhaps TiVo should squander less money on marketing? (or whatever they are doing with that money)
--
Why don't they open source the EPG thing? (They should do that, at the very least). They simply want to extract as much money as possible.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Why don't they open source the EPG thing? (They should do that, at the very least). They simply want to extract as much money as possible.


The 'EPG thing' is TiVo. That's what we paid for - rich metadata


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Sure, i get that! My box is _still_ very much alive. (I didn't think lifetime referred to _my_ lifetime, LOL)


I doesn't mean the service will continue for the lifetime of the box either; it means that there will be no payments for the lifetime of the box.



> When they "pulled out" in 2003, they were still happy to take our money.


And we were happy to receive the service in return.



> --
> They posted losses? Perhaps TiVo should squander less money on marketing? (or whatever they are doing with that money)


TiVo has never made money; the costs of development have always been higher than revenues. One day Apple will buy them with some small change found down the back of Stev Job's sofa, as thay are the only tech company to come close to apple's underastnading of user experience.
--


> Why don't they open source the EPG thing? (They should do that, at the very least). They simply want to extract as much money as possible.


The sale of "the EPG thing" is one of TiVo's main revenue streams, alongside software licensing like the VM deal.

It HAS been reverse engineered, and that's being worked on right now for the UK, to provide an alternative when TiVo stops.


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jo.Cassady said:


> With all due respect, have you lived in the USA? TiVo continue to be a _thriving_ enterprise. They neglected the UK market.


You're comparing apples and oranges, Jo.

In the US, TiVo was pretty much the only PVR game in town long enough for the concept to take root and gain mainstream acceptance. In the UK, TiVo only had a very short period on the market before Sky+ came along and wiped out a huge chunk of its potential customer base.

TiVo had no power to prevent Thomson dropping the UK S1 boxes. Similarly, it had no power to force any other manufacturer to start making them. So to suggest that they "neglected the UK market" is to fundamentally misunderstand the situation. TiVo could only enter the UK market when invited by partners who wanted TiVo software in their PVR boxes, and until Virgin Media came along, nobody did.



> When they "pulled out" in 2003, they were still happy to take our money


So Jo, would you have preferred that TiVo cancelled their UK guide data service in 2003 (as many of us feared they would), rather than keep it running to support a tiny and dwindling user base for almost another decade?

If I still had a TiVo, I would find it impossible to feel deceived or cheated. On the contrary, I would feel profoundly fortunate that TiVo had treated me so well by continuing to provide a service for so many years after it could (and the hard business case would be that it _should_) have been shut down.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> _Perhaps_ my anger is misplaced; it's good to engage in sensible discussion, I'm willing to hear everyone's views. (i am yet to be convinced that my anger is misplaced, though)


That would be "sensible discussion, as long as you don't disagree with me" then, yes? Otherwise you would not be wanting to "ignore" me. It's also interesting that I am the only one you want to ignore when there are other people putting forward the same POV as I am. (Though they are possible expressiing it better )

Perhaps I should 'ignore' you, as you have already demonstrated you actually know _nothing_ about Tivo; both the company _and_ its service. So why should anyone take you seriously? But I wouldn't do that; just because I don't agree with you and I don't mind if someone disagrees with my POV.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Carl, ask yourself why you are annoying so many people at the moment. It's not WHAT you're saying, it's HOW you're saying it.

A smiley does not excuse all statements.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I stand by everything I have said. Jo's reaction is OTT; especially given that it is based on zero knowledge of the actual company she it out to ruin by deformation.


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## mrparis (Sep 8, 2002)

I must admit I watched the re-run of the TWIT episode and got to admire Tom Merritt for sticking up for us UK Tivo's re the LifeTime sub. Nate Lanxon is a bit of a joke, to be honest, can't believe he hadn't heard of Tivo in the UK.

I am one of those with 2 lifetime boxes, both still working on a daily basis. I'll be sad come 1st June as I'll miss the service. Freeview+ or Freesat+ (or whatever it's called) just doesn't have the same reliability or use-ability to be honest. Still gutted it's going and feel a bit like a kick in the stones that they're dumping their Series 1 customers.

Who knows, maybe they'll bring us back into the fold and re-establish their services


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## ramtops (Sep 26, 2005)

Jo.Cassady said:


> One think people can do now (if they want) is:
> 
> Get the WOT (Web of Trust) plugin for Firefox
> Give sites like www.tivo.co.uk a 'scam' rating and let future customers know what a mendacious, untrustworthy organisation TiVo is.


Oh, don't be so bloody ridiculous. People are being bombed by airplanes in Libya, people are dying in an earthquake in New Zealand, the Tories are dismantling our society.

It's just a television recorder/service - get a grip.

[dons flak jacket]


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

^ See. I'm not the only one who believe Jo is being OTT. The examples give above _are_ scandals. Tivo pulling its S1 EPG is not.

But I'm the only one getting flak for it  Can I borrow your jacket, ramtops?


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Raisltin Majere said:


> We should be grateful they kept Tribune feeing us the data. I obviously don't have figures, but I'd be surprised if the monthly subscribers made that worthwhile.


I'm not quite sure about the idea that tivo continuing to provide series 1 data was some sort of cost burden so significant that we had our due's and should be grateful for what we got.

Consider:
1. Tivo will continue to pay Tribune for guide data to supply its other services.
2. Tivo will not risk annoying their USA series 1, 2 & 3 user base with the same treatment but its ok to cut off the UK?
3. Tivo's EPG servers are based in the USA and are going nowhere to continue providing data.
4. The only cost burden to Tivo was the continued running of the Internet dial-up networking point of presence and the freefone number. I think given the choice of loss of service or changing the number to a regular dial-up number would have been acceptable to most UK S1 users.

Make no mistake, there is only one reason Tivo chose to cut off S1 data now!


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

healeydave said:


> Make no mistake, there is only one reason Tivo chose to cut off S1 data now!


Because Virgin Media has exclusive rights to Tivo in the UK. Right!

Alek


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## Nimbus (May 29, 2004)

Are we sure that they are actually going to stop updating their servers ?

Or actually.. are they just turning off their dialup line ?

I mean, tivo never actually released a S1 with an ethernet connection, thats something the community did..

So in theory, no UK S1 tivos should be getting the data via the net anyway ?

It might be, that the EPG data for the new virgin boxes comes from the same servers, and from the 1st June, we might still be able to get the data from there... I mean, it must be generated for Virgin ?

Or am I being very optimistic... !!!

Well.. I can hope.....


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

healeydave said:


> 2. Tivo will not risk annoying their USA series 1, 2 & 3 user base with the same treatment but its ok to cut off the UK?


Like Jo, you're comparing apples and oranges, which is a pointless exercise. The installed US TiVo user base was 2.79 million in October 2009 (down from a 2006 peak of over 6 million); Thomson supposedly sold 35,000 boxes in the UK in total, and it wouldn't surprise me if less than a quarter were still in use.

Just FWIW, Sky+ HD had 3.5 million subscribers as of December 2010.

The numbers speak for themselves, don't they? Given TiVo's utter marginalisation in the UK (let's be honest, most people have never heard of it and hadn't heard of it even when Thomson was still making them), we really were lucky that they didn't just wash their hands of the service in 2003, as they had every legal right to do.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

GWR71 said:


> Like Jo, you're comparing apples and oranges, which is a pointless exercise. The installed US TiVo user base was 2.79 million in October 2009 (down from a 2006 peak of over 6 million); Thomson supposedly sold 35,000 boxes in the UK in total, and it wouldn't surprise me if less than a quarter were still in use.
> 
> Just FWIW, Sky+ HD had 3.5 million subscribers as of December 2010.
> 
> The numbers speak for themselves, don't they? Given TiVo's utter marginalisation in the UK (let's be honest, most people have never heard of it and hadn't heard of it even when Thomson was still making them), we really were lucky that they didn't just wash their hands of the service in 2003, as they had every legal right to do.


They didn't leave the UK in 2003, they didn't file for administration, they still have to fulfill their obligation to provide EPG data for the lifetime of my Thomson Scenium box.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

ramtops said:


> Oh, don't be so bloody ridiculous. People are being bombed by airplanes in Libya, people are dying in an earthquake in New Zealand, the Tories are dismantling our society.
> 
> It's just a television recorder/service - get a grip.
> 
> [dons flak jacket]


Hey, it's just lively debate at this point. Welcome to the thread.

Your New Zealand earthquake straw man is _silly_ and isn't helping. At any given point, there are always tragedies taking place. It doesn't excuse the greed and mendacity of TiVo.

Please, try to convince me using _logic_, not silly rhetoric. I am listening.

There's no doubt (in my mind) that they're trying to pull a fast one.


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## sad_tivo_man (Apr 27, 2003)

ramtops said:


> .... the Tories are dismantling our society.
> 
> ....


Actually that has been done pretty effectively already by New Labour


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Carl, ask yourself why you are annoying so many people at the moment. It's not WHAT you're saying, it's HOW you're saying it.
> 
> A smiley does not excuse all statements.


I just skip over his walls of text.


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## Teepee (Aug 24, 2004)

U.K. Tivos came onto the market at a cost of nearly £600 for a fully subbed unit. At that time a V.H.S. recorder could be purchased for £100 and expected to last for ten years. With such a hefty premium for the Tivo features I would say that a fifty year lifetime would not be at all unreasonable.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

Fifty year lifetime?!

Can you name a piece of consumer electronics from fifty years ago you expect is still working/supported by it's manufacturer today?


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## Major dude (Oct 28, 2002)

healeydave said:


> 2. Tivo will not risk annoying their USA series 1, 2 & 3 user base with the same treatment but its ok to cut off the UK?


I was about to ask about how TiVo treats USA series 1 users as I think this is the most significant point about this issue.

I have always thought American consumers in general get a better deal usually because they are more willing to complain. At the end of the day we are all TiVo consumers and we should all be treated the same as our American counterparts.

In the meantime I see no harm in complaining if only so that in future TiVo and VM think twice and do not take their UK customers for granted.

As far as the symantic arguement is concerned about 'scandalous behaviour' this is totally subjective and depends on what you personally think is important in life. People talk usually about a scandal in relation to the royal family and yet in the words of a Bishop uttered recently I could not care less about 'old big ears and the China Doll' and have no expectation that they should or would behave better or worse than anybody else along with MPs, footballers, etc..

This is a TiVo Community Forum and an appropriate place to air and share your grievances about TiVo, especially as there is a chance it is being monitored by Virgin Media.

In conclusion perhaps because we have such high regard for TiVo as a product and care about it we do have misplaced expectations on how TiVo and VM as retail companies should behave toward their customers and therefore we do think 'scandalous' is an approriate term.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

Karnak said:


> Fifty year lifetime?!
> 
> Can you name a piece of consumer electronics from fifty years ago you expect is still working/supported by it's manufacturer today?


GPO 700 series telephones? They were introduced in about 1959.

I dunno about it being supported, but I think my dad still has the one in his study that was installed back in about 1970..


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> They didn't leave the UK in 2003, they didn't file for administration, they still have to fulfill their obligation to provide EPG data for the *lifetime of my Thomson Scenium box*.


And, as has been previously explained on a number of occasions, it is *NOT* the lifetime *of the box* but of the EPG service; which will die on June 1.


Jo.Cassady said:


> I just skip over his walls of text.


Well yeah. It's easier to ignore the truth than to admit you're just completely and utterly wrong; especially after so many pages of me and other people telling you the same thing


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## worm (Feb 10, 2005)

cwaring said:


> And, as has been previously explained on a number of occasions, it is *NOT* the lifetime *of the box* but of the EPG service; which will die on June 1.


To be fair - from the Service agreement:



> A "Product Lifetime Subscription" to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo DVR you buy  not the life of the subscriber.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Teepee said:


> U.K. Tivos came onto the market at a cost of nearly £600 for a fully subbed unit. At that time a V.H.S. recorder could be purchased for £100 and expected to last for ten years. With such a hefty premium for the Tivo features* I would say that a fifty year lifetime would not be at all unreasonable*.


Deserves quoting for the absurdity.  

I'm pleasantly amazed it has lasted so long - and I probably stand to lose a lot more financially than most of you!


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Please, try to convince me using _logic_, not silly rhetoric. I am listening


We *are* using logic, Jo, but your obvious passion for TiVo seems to be blinding you to the basic realities we are pointing out.

When TiVo abandoned the UK as a growth market in 2003 (and they had no alternative - Thomson stopped making the boxes in 2002 and no other manufacturer showed any interest in licensing TiVo software), the logical business step for them to take would have been to cut the service at the same time.

*They didn't*, even though they were fully legally entitled to do so (as they still are, hence the cessation of the service in June, which does *not* break any conditions of the contract between them and you, no matter what you may prefer to think). They continued supporting what was, effectively, a total dead-end market for them for the next 8 years. Is that the work of a heartless corporation that cares more about the bottom line than its customers?

Of course, that couldn't last forever. Given the tiny size of the UK S1 user base, the UK S1 guide data service has continued far longer than any of us could reasonably have expected. I genuinely can't comprehend how you can apparently feel hard done by.


----------



## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

I kind of feel like I want to chime in here and say sensible things about how much service we've had and how my TiVo was the best bargain I've ever bought, etc etc.... but I get the impression others have done that ad-infinitum and it wouldn't be worth my while?..


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

^ Indeed. Complete waste of time on some people. Most of us would agree with you though


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

alek said:


> Because Virgin Media has exclusive rights to Tivo in the UK. Right!


One thing we don't know are the terms under which those exclusive rights were negotiated. It's seems clear that TiVo got VM to offer boxes to current S1 subscribers first; we can also suppose that the Sky contract to handle CS queries ran out or was terminated towards the end of 2010. So the remaining question is how much influence VM have had in ending the S1 service.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> They didn't leave the UK in 2003, they didn't file for administration, they still have to fulfill their obligation to provide EPG data for the lifetime of my Thomson Scenium box.


They did leave the UK in 2003, they did wind up their UK company, and they will provide free EPG data for your box for so long as the service exists (which is all that was ever promised).


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

irrelevant said:


> GPO 700 series telephones? They were introduced in about 1959.
> 
> I dunno about it being supported, but I think my dad still has the one in his study that was installed back in about 1970..


Nope, try using a pulse dial telephone today!


----------



## sbutton (Nov 11, 2006)

All this tit-for-tat bickering is all very well, but seriously what are our options here. I think I've got the following options :-

1) Leave it as it is, and just use it for pause / rewind. Get everything else from iPlayer/PS3. (and "other sources" - PS3 media server)
2) Upgrade to a new Virgin Tivo http://tivo.virginmedia.com/tivoupgrade (I've already registered an interest) But I don't get Virgin cable where I live, so not much use?
3) Hack the current TiVo so it gets its EPG from the internet. Would require purchase of a network card, which USED to be expensive. Are they still expensive? Can you ONLY use the TiVo EPG, or can it get it from somewhere else?
4) Get a Sky+ box (can probably get a cheap one from eBay ,as people upgrade to Sky+ HD and 3D)

I'm still using my SD CRT telly and quite happy with it thank-you-very-much. Also, I only get the free channels on my current SKy box as I'm trying to save money this year. (and not impressed with the pay channels anyway)

Any suggestions on number 3) ?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> g.
> 
> There's no doubt (in my mind) that they're trying to pull a fast one.


More of a really, really slow one since it's taken them 8 or 9 years!


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

sbutton said:


> 3) Hack the current TiVo so it gets its EPG from the internet. Would require purchase of a network card, which USED to be expensive. Are they still expensive? Can you ONLY use the TiVo EPG, or can it get it from somewhere else?


We're all doing that - technical users will be able to re-image, non-technical can buy a hard drive pre-done. 
It's easier with a netowrk card, but possible without.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

3) MAY not need a network card. Watch this space.


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

mikerr said:


> We're all doing that - technical users will be able to re-image, non-technical can buy a hard drive pre-done.
> It's easier with a netowrk card, but possible without.


I'm still hopeful that non-technical non-networked users will be able to get by with just changing the phone number and re-running guided setup. That's what I would be working towards.


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## sbutton (Nov 11, 2006)

mikerr said:


> We're all doing that - technical users will be able to re-image, non-technical can buy a hard drive pre-done.
> It's easier with a netowrk card, but possible without.


OK. I count myself as technical. But also busy.  I tried hacking my TiVo years ago, but was using a dodgy USB -> serial thingy (a lot of them are dodgy) and didn't get very far. I was trying to get radio stations working again, which was not a great loss, therefore not a great motivation. Perhaps it's time to dig one out again, or even better get a real serial card and use a real PC instead of a laptop. Any tips?

Are there up to date sites with HOWTOs for this? I think I've still got the 9pin to 1/8" jack cable that I made.

Many thanks,


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## irrelevant (Mar 19, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> Nope, try using a pulse dial telephone today!


Worked fine as of a few weeks ago when I was testing an old Tandata viewdata terminal. (c. 25 years old..)


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I stand corrected!


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## geekspeak (Oct 1, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> how do I turn the *ignore* thing on? I don't read his walls of text, but would be good to make it disappear.


Maybe you found out already. Just click on the posters name on the left of a post and then "View Public Profile". There is an option to then add them to your ignore list. Helps cut out time wasted on some of the 'chatter' and pages and pages of the same message.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

She's going to have to "ignore" quite a few of us if she doesn't like being proved wrong every time she posts something


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## mervyncp (Sep 8, 2005)

Someone suggested buying a cheap second hand Sky+ box as a replacement for the TiVo.

As I understand it, they will only record if you have a valid Sky+ subscription.

Freeview or Freesat HD recorder seems to be the way forward.

As far as a "Lifetime Subscription" is concerned. We all know that was termed the lifetime of the box itself. This can be reasonably argued to be interpretted as the expected lifetime of the box. As they are all now at least 9 years old I don't think anyone can say that TiVo haven't fulfilled their obligations.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mervyncp said:


> Someone suggested buying a cheap second hand Sky+ box as a replacement for the TiVo.
> 
> As I understand it, they will only record if you have a valid Sky+ subscription.


Correct they will only work if you pay the £10 per month Sky+ recording charge that applies to record if you don't pay Sky for any channel package. I presume a Sky HD box would also record BBC HD, BBC1 HD and ITV HD for the same fee and also C4HD as long as you had an FTV viewing card for the box as its not a subscription channel but is encrypted so its not available on BBC/ITV Freesat HD boxes.

If you want to record any HD channel operated by Sky its going to cost you at least another £19 per month on top in subscriptions.

Alternatively you could buy a Freesat HD box instead but the only HD channels it will let you record are BBCOneHD, BBCHD and possibly ITV HD (not sure about the latter although can definitely view it on a Freesat HD box). You can't even watch or record C4HD on it.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I stand corrected!


Can you say that again TCM2007:up:

But to confirm you are wrong I have a telephone that looks like a Ferrari 308 that I bought at least 20 years ago in the Tottenham Court that can only pulse dial (even though it has a number button keypad with American key layout with letters as well as numbers on etc) and that was a non BABT approved import and it still works absolutely fine on the extension socket in my old bedroom at my mother's house.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Alternatively you could buy a Freesat HD box instead but the only HD channels it will let you record are BBCOneHD, BBCHD and possibly ITV HD (not sure about the latter although can definitely view it on a Freesat HD box). You can't even watch or record C4HD on it.


Can't even view ITV1 HD in most of Scotland!


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

cwaring said:


> . . .And the "lifetime" of the EPG data covered by your payment, ends (with more than 100 days notice) on June 1, 2011. End of story. . .


And that's the rub of the disagreement twixt you and I. TiVo contracted to provide a service for the life of the equipment. The equipment is still fine, they are still going to provide the service but arbitrarily just not to us.

It may have been a dumb contract for them to agree to but they did it with their eyes open. I've made some dumb contracts in my time, bought stuff that turned out to be out of date not long after I got it home - didn't give me the right to cancel the contract just cos I was dumb did it? Doesn't give it to them either.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That isn't what the contract says though. It clearly says the service can be ended at any time. It's there in black and white. The commitment to life timers is that they will never have to pay for the service.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I stand corrected!


Amazing isn't it? My lovely old beige GPO dial phone (with proper bells!) will still dial out fine on a normal BT landline.

You need a pulse-dial to DTMF converter to use it with other providers - like cable telephony and almost all VOIP adaptors with phone inputs.

Needless to say I don't make outgoing calls on the dial phone (how did we cope?!) - but I do love a proper ring!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Sneals2000 said:


> Needless to say I don't make outgoing calls on the dial phone (how did we cope?!) - but I do love a proper ring!


Surely you must do occasionally. In hindsight it was much more entertaining than just pushing buttons.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I still have nightmares (literally) where not being able to correctly dial a long number on a dial phone replaces the classic not being able to scream.

I think I've lost the ability to tap dial to circumvent dial locks on office phones at University though.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

I haven't read all the replies yet, hope to read and respond soon. 

I do have a silicon dust cachecard, I obviously don't mind them withdrawing the 0800 number, LOL


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> That isn't what the contract says though. It clearly says the service can be ended at any time. It's there in black and white. The commitment to life timers is that they will never have to pay for the service.


Oh, I've absolutely no doubt that they are _legally_ covered. It's just that it's _terrible_ PR, and a _terrible_ way to treat consumers; when companies do stuff like this, they loose out on revenue due to loss of future sales.

I wouldn't be surprised if the lost revenue, over time, is significant.

Some of us might early adopters, tech evangelists in our peer group, or perhaps even employees of magazines, like Stuff and T3.

TiVo can still fix this, I hope they do.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I doesn't mean the service will continue for the lifetime of the box either; it means that there will be no payments for the lifetime of the box.


Wow, if I'd sat here from _now until the end-of-time_, I wouldn't have thought of that. It's pretty tenuous. I just can't imagine anyone from TiVo saying that (on a TV interview, for example) with a straight-face.

I foresee muddied public relations.

_Just how poor was their future planning?_ Surely, a lot of the infrastructure is place, for those of us with network cards (who can get updates over broadband). They are _still_ going to continue to curate/write EPG data; the cost of keeping this service going is microscopic.

Look, if TiVo were shutting down in the uk forever, that would be forgivable. They're making an old product obsolete (via a service change) just because they've bought out a new model.


----------



## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> More of a really, really slow one since it's taken them 8 or 9 years!


They aren't leaving the UK, they actually have _more_ of a reason to continue to write the EPG data. People should be able to download this info over broadband.


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## sjp (Oct 22, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> I think I've lost the ability to tap dial to circumvent dial locks on office phones at University though.


in many years of tap dialling to the states - mid/late sixties until the GPO got wise - I manged to only ever get one wrong number.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Wow, if I'd sat here from _now until the end-of-time_, I wouldn't have thought of that. It's pretty tenuous. I just can't imagine anyone from TiVo saying that (on a TV interview, for example) with a straight-face.


What did you think you were buying?

It was a straight choice of how to pay for the service; pay £10 every month, or £199 up front and then nothing on a monthly basis. It was never sold as a guarantee of continuing service forever, and no-one at the time would have taken it that way.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> a _terrible_ way to treat consumers; .


Maintaining a service for more than eight years after sales stopped and the company closed down it's operations in the UK? That's customer service above and beyond.

Anyone reading these threads from TiVo mut think we're a bunch of ungrateful so and sos.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> I still have nightmares (literally) where not being able to correctly dial a long number on a dial phone replaces the classic not being able to scream.
> 
> I think I've lost the ability to tap dial to circumvent dial locks on office phones at University though.


Yep - I remember when they re-engineered payphones to stop tap-dialling working - but then introduced DTMF dialling with exchange upgrades... So you could use a touch-tone keypad instead...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Sneals2000 said:


> Yep - I remember when they re-engineered payphones to stop tap-dialling working - but then introduced DTMF dialling with exchange upgrades... So you could use a touch-tone keypad instead...


The great white hot technological leap of System X and System Y in place of Strowger no doubt.

I remember seeing these revolutionary upcoming technological developments on show at the Science Museum along with one of the first ever Ceefax sets some time in the mid 1970s. That door with the photo electric beam in the basement was also great fun to a child of 11 or 12 years old.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> [...] for those of us with network cards (who can get updates over broadband).


So you freely admit that you have deliberately and wantonly breached your legal Agreement with TiVo. So why do you think TiVo should be "honour bound" to comply with _anything_ in the Agreement if you won't do the same?


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> That door with the photo electric beam in the basement was also great fun to a child of 11 or 12 years old.


Was that the one where you had to try and grab the globe that disappeared into the table whenever you tried ?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I do have a silicon dust cachecard, I obviously don't mind them withdrawing the 0800 number, LOL


Now who's being selfish and smug.


Jo.Cassady said:


> ... they loose out on revenue due to loss of future sales.


I'm sure they won't lose any 'sales' over this.


Jo.Cassady said:


> Just how poor was their future planning?


Not as poor as you think; obviously.


> ...for those of us with network cards (who can get updates over broadband).


Which, of course, it technically a breach of the T&C you agreed to upon buying the unit. So you have no _legal_ right to the service anyway.


Jo.Cassady said:


> They aren't leaving the UK, they actually have _more_ of a reason to continue to write the EPG data. People should be able to download this info over broadband.


Through contract-breaking boxes. And what about those still un-modded boxes using dial-up? We're back to selfish again.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

katman said:


> Was that the one where you had to try and grab the globe that disappeared into the table whenever you tried ?


No but that was there too at that time. The big green door in the basement was a big wooden green painted affair with an automatic door opener attached to it. You walked through a photo electric beam and it opened. You walked through and it closed. I think the only other place that might have had self opening doors at that time that I visited was Terminal 1 at Heathrow. They definitely didn't have any at my school or at my home.

I remember escalators on the London Underground being pretty exciting too when I first tackled them with my grandma when I was only 4 or 5 years old (she lived in Ickenham at the end of the Met/Piccadilly line and we took trips up to London).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Some of us might early adopters, tech evangelists in our peer group, or perhaps even employees of magazines, like Stuff and T3.
> 
> TiVo can still fix this, I hope they do.


TCM2007 works for T3 magazine. Do you work for Stuff?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I do have a silicon dust cachecard, I obviously don't mind them withdrawing the 0800 number, LOL


The 0808 dialup number is run by Tivo through one of their comms suppliers and has nothing to do with Sky as far as I know. So ending the relationship with Sky for support ought not to affect this.

Don't forget that the majority of current Tivo S1 users still use dialup and have not modified their machines so it is vital that they should also continue to be supported.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> They aren't leaving the UK, they actually have _more_ of a reason to continue to write the EPG data. People should be able to download this info over broadband.


The one major flaw I see with that argument is that currently the EPG covers Terrestrial, Digital Terrestrial, SKY and Virgin.

Yes they still need to provide guide data but only for Virgin so it would only be of use to people with a Virgin box already connected to their Tivo and if someone is in that situation then .....

Im frustrated as hell to potentially be losing what we already have but am pinning my hopes on the alternative guide, which as I have a "spare" unsubbed Tivo in addition to my trusty Lifetime box could leave me in a better position that I am currently in 

I can remember worrying many years ago that if my box died within 20 months I would be out of pocket and I never for one minute imagined that it would be such a reliable piece of equipment.

People have bemoaned its large physical size but I believe that is one of the reasons that it endures. It has room to breathe and disipate its heat, unlike SKY+ boxes which just cook themselves even in a well ventilated cabinet.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

katman said:


> The one major flaw I see with that argument is that currently the EPG covers Terrestrial, Digital Terrestrial, SKY and Virgin


Virtually all Freeview channels and the majority of channels available on a Sky box that matter are also available from Virgin. The EPG data won't differ and only the channel number will apart from the Freeview time share channels that have to be split in to two sub channels for EPG purposes (but that even happens on satellite with CBeebies and BBC Four etc).

Tivo also still continues to have a relationship with Tribune for its US boxes.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

The EPG Virgin are using is being bought by them directly from Tribune, do even if it resides on TiVo's servers its not theirs to give, unfortunately.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> The DOG Virgin are using is being bought by them directly from Tribune, do even if it resides on TiVo's servers its not theirs to give, unfortunately.


Do you mean the EPG? I believe that a DOG in tv land is one of those annoying graphics with the channel brand that resides in the top corner of your tv screen.

Perhaps another need for you to apologise for an error there TCM.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Android's overzealous predictive typing!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Android's overzealous predictive typing!


Well if you always use these unproven bleeding edge devices.................


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

My desktop PC doesn't work on the 0852 to Waterloo.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Well if you always use these unproven bleeding edge devices.................


Is that why some posts receive such "cutting" comments LOL


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the lost revenue, over time, is significant


But... how?

You honestly seem to be on another planet as far as this is concerned, Jo. A planet where the public has not only _heard_ of the S1 UK TiVo, but actually _cares_ about it too.

What you seem to be saying is that you think a significant number of Virgin Media customers are going to be so incensed by what TiVo is doing to the S1 users that they will refuse to have anything to do with the VM TiVo as some kind of show of solidarity.

Am I right there? I'm not misrepresenting you? You seriously believe that will happen?

Because, perhaps unsurprisingly, I _don't_ think that will happen. At all. What I think is far more likely is that within a year, there will be many more happy UK TiVo users thanks to VM than there ever were thanks to Thomson.



> Some of us might early adopters, tech evangelists in our peer group, or perhaps even employees of magazines, like Stuff and T3


My TiVangelism was such that I converted many of my friends to TiVo. But they've all long since switched to alternatives, mostly Sky+ HD.

As for the magazines like Stuff and T3, I would expect them to take the pragmatic view - that UK S1 owners were actually pretty lucky to get 8 years of service after everyone assumed it was game over.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

GWR71 said:


> What you seem to be saying is that you think a significant number of Virgin Media customers are going to be so incensed by what TiVo is doing to the S1 users that they will refuse to have anything to do with the VM TiVo as some kind of show of solidarity.


I may be a sample of one, so to speak. But I am an existing VM customer, and although I might feel sorry that the S1 service is ending leaving some out in the cold, I'm not going to refuse to get a new TiVo from VM. It would achieve nothing.


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## sbutton (Nov 11, 2006)

I'm with you there GWR71. I think some people really need to get a perspective about this and be happy they have had nearly 10 years of service. I'm pretty annoyed by the whole thing too, because I'd just like to carry on using things as they are for now. I'm not ready to update my TV to HD yet and I can't get Virgin cable, but this has spurred me into action. I'm going to attempt to hack my Tivo, add a network card, put in a bigger HD and help to get a UK EPG going. If that doesn't work, I'll just buy an old Sky+ box and suffer the loss of UI. I've been playing with Boxee and before that XBMC too, which allows me to watch a lot of what I want anyway.

But seriously, very few people these days remember or have even heard of TiVO in the UK. My friends only know about it 'cos I've got one.

It would have been nice if TiVo UK had kept the EPG service going for a couple more years, but they have made a commercial decision to cease the service. We are seriously not a big enough "pressure group" to make them change their mind. Or even notice.

Pick your battles carefully, as this one would be a huge waste of effort.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I do have a silicon dust cachecard


In which case, you have invalidated the agreement by opening the box, as well as your 'lifetime' argument.

As soon as anyone has opened the box - and most of us have due to dead disks - we broke the agreement.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

GWR71 said:


> But... how?
> 
> You honestly seem to be on another planet as far as this is concerned, Jo. A planet where the public has not only _heard_ of the S1 UK TiVo, but actually _cares_ about it too.
> 
> ...


HA HA HA, no , you misunderstand! You _are_ misrepresenting me.


Virgin Media customers, especially those that are readers of this forum will buy TiVo on day #1 of its launch. They appreciate what a valuable service it is. 
Members of the general public, who aren't really sold on its features (and there are many - just like the Nate guy from Wired.co.uk) might think twice, if they realise how shady their business practices are. I'm not talking about nerds, just your average mum who hears about it through a Facebook friend. 
Nerds and geeks who were S1 customers of TiVo may be more inclined to use TiVo's intellectual property, and _not_ care. 

So, with the Web of Trust (WOT) thing, I'm saying we have a right to say we think that because TiVo screwed us over with S1, we think they're shady. (just as opinion). As you say - lot of consumers will not care/understand. A few will.

When TiVo S2 launches, there will be pieces in the UK press, every now and then. It's not fantastic PR if some of those mention this whole saga.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> TCM2007 works for T3 magazine. Do you work for Stuff?


Nope


----------



## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Virtually all Freeview channels and the majority of channels available on a Sky box that matter are also available from Virgin. The EPG data won't differ and only the channel number will apart from the Freeview time share channels that have to be split in to two sub channels for EPG purposes (but that even happens on satellite with CBeebies and BBC Four etc).
> 
> Tivo also still continues to have a relationship with Tribune for its US boxes.


QFT


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Correct they will only work if you pay the £10 per month Sky+ recording charge that applies to record if you don't pay Sky for any channel package.


I would feel dirty giving money to that horrible Murdoch man.

Everyone who uses Sky+ moans that their HDD is 99% full. TiVo's autodeletion is such a valuable feature.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> HA HA HA, no , you misunderstand! You _are_ misrepresenting me.
> 
> 
> Virgin Media customers, especially those that are readers of this forum will buy TiVo on day #1 of its launch. They appreciate what a valuable service it is.
> ...


Just in case anyone misses it.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

ColinYounger said:


> In which case, you have invalidated the agreement by opening the box, as well as your 'lifetime' argument.
> 
> As soon as anyone has opened the box - and most of us have due to dead disks - we broke the agreement.


I also have a regular unmodified box in storage; I used to have pied-à-terre (second home). This has a lifetime sub.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

sbutton said:


> Pick your battles carefully, as this one would be a huge waste of effort.


It involves very little effort. Typing isn't very exhausting.


----------



## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> The 0808 dialup number is run by Tivo through one of their comms suppliers and has nothing to do with Sky as far as I know. So ending the relationship with Sky for support ought not to affect this.
> 
> Don't forget that the majority of current Tivo S1 users still use dialup and have not modified their machines so it is vital that they should also continue to be supported.


Excellent points, well made.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

TCM2007 said:


> That isn't what the contract says though. It clearly says the service can be ended at any time. It's there in black and white. The commitment to life timers is that they will never have to pay for the service.


If they were discontinuing the service in the USA as well I'd agree with you. The agreement is less clear on their rights to selectively close the service by territory. In the UK they were bound by the unfair terms acts which can strike out those "within 30 days we can do what the hell we like" clauses.

But this thread isn't about the legalities, it's about whether it's reprehensible to make an agreement for the life of the box and then abandon it when it doesn't suit them.

In my view it's bad behaviour that looks like Heads they win, Tails we lose. I guess it's not in yours and those of most here.


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jo.Cassady said:


> [*]Members of the general public, who aren't really sold on its features (and there are many - just like the Nate guy from Wired.co.uk) might think twice, if they realise how shady their business practices are. I'm not talking about nerds, just your average mum who hears about it through a Facebook friend


Your average mum really isn't going to care.

And as for "shady business practices" - how "shady" is it, exactly, that they continued supporting the UK S1 TiVos for 8 years longer than they really should have done? The logical business decision in 2003 would have been for them to wash their hands completely of the UK, treat it as a failed experiment, cut off the service and walk away. If you bother to check the forum archives for that time, you'll see just how many people feared that this was exactly what would happen. The idea that the service would still be running in 2011 was just pie in the sky.

I note that whenever anybody brings this inconvenient truth up, you never have any response to it. Quite telling, I think.



> As you say - lot of consumers will not care/understand. A few will


And you reckon that those few will be enough to cause a "significant" loss in revenue? Seriously Jo, in a year's time there will be more people in the UK using the VM TiVo than there ever were using the Thomson TiVo. You're massively overestimating the influence of the tiny number of people left using S1 in the UK.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> In the UK they were bound by the unfair terms acts which can strike out those "within 30 days we can do what the hell we like" clauses.


Afraid not. Clause 21:


> This Agreement will be governed by the laws of the State of California


Your "unfair terms act" simply doesn't apply.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Can any one person with a Lifetime Subscription explain to me (with sums) why you have not had fair value from your £199 ?

No hyperbole about what "Lifetime" means or doesn't. Just why you haven't had value for money?

It's interesting to note that the vociferous "outraged of UK" people on here are those who paid a mere £199. Very little (if any?) griping from the many people (50% by some people's guesstimates) who paid TAM (tenner a month) and therefore paid over £1200 for _exactly the same service_.

If the TAMS are happy they have had value for money, then why do the lifers feel so hard done by?

(Note for the avoidance of doubt and before anyone carps on about it: yes I have complained about the service closing but that was about the WAY TiVo did it, not the fact that they DID do it.)


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

"This Agreement will be governed by the laws of the State of California"

I believe that when trading in the UK a company must operate under UK law.

I mean if a company can pick which laws it works under then there is no law.


Alek


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

GWR71 said:


> I note that whenever anybody brings this inconvenient truth up, you never have any response to it. Quite telling, I think.


Indeed. Some of us she just puts on 'gnore'


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

alek said:


> "This Agreement will be governed by the laws of the State of California"
> 
> I believe that when trading in the UK a company must operate under UK law.


Afraid not. As a UK registered company we trade with business & people in Europe and Asia, but *all* dealings are subject to UK law. To do otherwise is a nightmare - imagine having to deal with Courts in 20 different countries just to sell products there. Would stifle international trade at a stroke.

That's why all Agreements will have a clause at the bottom which states the Applicable Law to that particular agreement.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Steve_K said:


> If they were discontinuing the service in the USA as well I'd agree with you. The agreement is less clear on their rights to selectively close the service by territory. In the UK they were bound by the unfair terms acts which can strike out those "within 30 days we can do what the hell we like" clauses.
> 
> But this thread isn't about the legalities, it's about whether it's reprehensible to make an agreement for the life of the box and then abandon it when it doesn't suit them.
> 
> In my view it's bad behaviour that looks like Heads they win, Tails we lose. I guess it's not in yours and those of most here.


10/10, very good post, A++++

<3


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

GWR71 said:


> And you reckon that those few will be enough to cause a "significant" loss in revenue? Seriously Jo, in a year's time there will be more people in the UK using the VM TiVo than there ever were using the Thomson TiVo. You're massively overestimating the influence of the tiny number of people left using S1 in the UK.


Suppose it costs TiVo £x to keep the EPG service going (for S1 people)

Their loss of income would be > £x

Given that the infrastructure already exists, the cost of £x is relatively minute.

Then, think of all the geeks who won't think twice about creating/downloading TiVo software, sticking two fingers up to their patents and Copyrights. Right now, I _might_ even be inclined to donate £100 to people working on "non-official" TiVo software/hardware.

*Yup, we're a tiny but vocal minority. Perhaps our influence will be negligible, but i'll damn well try. On principle.*


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

If their renewal for tribune UK data is in June (TiVo pays tribune for the raw guide data) - that alone might be £50k ... hardly "minute".


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

I really wish you guys would stop speculating about the costs.

No one knows whether the service was profitable or not. There is no way to know either way, regardless of what any of us might think.

Stop second guessing the intentions of Tivo. They have the right to stop the service per the Ts&Cs. They're exercising this right. End of.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

Karnak said:


> I really wish you guys would stop speculating about the costs.
> 
> No one knows whether the service was profitable or not. There is no way to know either way, regardless of what any of us might think.
> 
> Stop second guessing the intentions of Tivo. They have the right to stop the service per the Ts&Cs. They're exercising this right. End of.


Yes indeed they had the right to stop the service and they did.

We also have the right to speculate and talk as much bovine excrement as we want.

Alek


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

My final say on the matter, look how few people have signed the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/retain-or-open-source-the-uk-tivo-series-1-epg-service/2463

This includes people such as myself and Carl etc having signed. People who have 'made peace' with the decision so to speak.

There is no significant outrage outside of this forum and there is no where near a big enough group of people bothered for any company to care.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> But this thread isn't about the legalities, it's about whether it's reprehensible to make an agreement for the life of the box and then abandon it when it doesn't suit them.


I think what the agreement was when we took out the £200 lifetime seems to have drifted in people's minds over the many intervening years.

It was never sold as "the service will continue for the lifetime of your box". It was sold very clearly when you called up - "Do you want to pay £10 month, or £199 up front and never pay any more for the lifetime of your box?". It's a lifetime guaranteed of no more payments, not of indefinite service. The latter doesn't pass the simple common sense test - a promise to still provide the service in 10, 20, 30 years?

You can look back in the archive here, specially when people were buying boxes after TiVo's withdrawal, and see many posts along the lines of "Should I buy a lifetime sub as I'm not sure TiVo will still be providing the service in 20 months". No-one ever replied "Yes, because lifetimers are guaranteed a service forever". Or even "yes, because you can sue TiVo when they close the service".

But it seems to have warped in people's minds into "they promised forever" which just ain't so. The word "lifetime" is simply the counterpoint to "pay monthly". Taking a lifetime enabled us to make a saving over paying £10 a month. No more.


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Suppose it costs TiVo £x to keep the EPG service going (for S1 people)...


Still avoiding responding to the inconvenient truth I mentioned in my previous post, Jo? 



> Then, think of all the geeks who won't think twice about creating/downloading TiVo software, sticking two fingers up to their patents and Copyrights


Why should TiVo care about that? You're talking about a tiny number of people who would be interested in keeping UK S1 boxes alive, and that number is only going to decline further over time.



TCM2007 said:


> You can look back in the archive here, specially when people were buying boxes after TiVo's withdrawal, and see many posts along the lines of "Should I buy a lifetime sub as I'm not sure TiVo will still be providing the service in 20 months". No-one ever replied "Yes, because lifetimers are guaranteed a service forever". Or even "yes, because you can sue TiVo when they close the service"


Very good point. I remember those threads!


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## scgf (Oct 24, 2000)

GWR71 said:


> Very good point. I remember those threads!


Me too! I decided that TiVo wasn't going to be round for very long so opted to pay £10 a month. Lots of other TiVo owners thought that too, whereas those who opted to pay the lifetime sub used arguments like 'well if the service continues for more than 20 months you'll be laughing'. Those who took out the lifetime sub knew full well they were taking a risk.

IMHO lifetimers have been very well treated indeed, I think TiVo has behaved honourably in providing the service for so long after the company withdrew from the UK. What other company has done anything like this?

Surely those who took out the lifetime sub didn't expect a TiVo service until the day they died? How many of them actually don't have the actual product they bought, anyhow? I reckon most boxes have been modified - the true lifetime of the S1 box should be up to the point where the owner felt if had outlived its day in its current form and upgraded the hard drive . . . . it then became a different beast.


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## ramtops (Sep 26, 2005)

Jo.Cassady said:


> It involves very little effort. Typing isn't very exhausting.


*Thinking*, however, does.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Not to mention the time taken to do the research to get your facts right. Something else sorely lacking in certain people's posts


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I also have a regular unmodified box in storage; I used to have pied-à-terre (second home). This has a lifetime sub.


You better get it out and start using it - it'll be useless soon.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

spitfires said:


> Afraid not. As a UK registered company we trade with business & people in Europe and Asia, but *all* dealings are subject to UK law. To do otherwise is a nightmare - imagine having to deal with Courts in 20 different countries just to sell products there. Would stifle international trade at a stroke.
> 
> That's why all Agreements will have a clause at the bottom which states the Applicable Law to that particular agreement.


Again that in itself would be an unfair term under the act. You can quote State of California in dealings between companies but try it with consumers and it gives a disproportional benefit which a court would strike out.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

spitfires said:


> Can any one person with a Lifetime Subscription explain to me (with sums) why you have not had fair value from your £199 ? . .


An excellent question

I've had good value but not fair value.

I'll try an analogy.

If I bet £100 on a 20 to 1 bet, win and the bookie says "ah I think I keep back £500 of the £2,000 payout because I'm a bit short of cash". I would still have a *good* payout but not a *fair* one.

We bet our £200 + PVR purchase price on a TiVo company that could have folded within weeks. It didn't. I want my *fair* results. If I don't get them or a reasonable offer I will continue to think they've behaved scandalously.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

So do you think TAMs have had fair value from their £1,200 ?


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Its arguable. They must have thought it was fair value to pay that way. I never thought the TAM deal was good value.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Steve_K said:


> We bet our £200 + PVR purchase price on a TiVo company that could have folded within weeks. It didn't.


Indeed. It took *EIGHT YEARS*. I'd say that was _very_ "fair"; as would others.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> An excellent question
> 
> I've had good value but not fair value.


There really is no pleasing some people. You in effect paid less than £2 a month rather than £10, and you feel you've been somehow robbed. Extraordinary.

At what point would it have been "fair"? £1? 50p? 5p?


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

TCM2007 said:


> At what point would it have been "fair"? £1? 50p? 5p?


It would have been fair when either the box owned expired or an updated service was available.

Alek


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

That's a very hard line perspective.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

*We have reached an impasse *

We're going round in circles, arguing about stuff that is clearly subjective. A few TiVo fanboys are so smitten with the product/service, they are willing to forgive them for _anything_. "But don't you feel you got a lot of value from them?". No, I don't! That's why I'm raising a finger of complaint.

We have been deceived.

I wouldn't have bought the box if I'd known they were going to brick it. Would I have paid £10/month? Hell no! Would I have paid £200 for 10 years of service? No, I wouldn't. Otherwise I wouldn't be complaining here.

I'm going to relish creating a stink about it. Dear TiVo fanboys: I _don't care_ if you think it will make no difference; maybe it won't. It will make me feel better.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Would I have paid £200 for 10 years of service? No, I wouldn't. Otherwise I wouldn't be complaining here.


So you bought your lifetime sub in the belief that the box would last significantly in excess of 10 years without failing.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

mikerr said:


> If their renewal for tribune UK data is in June (TiVo pays tribune for the raw guide data) - that alone might be £50k ... hardly "minute".


Yes, it is!

They could have just put 6 Million £+ in a high interest account and used the _interest_ to pay Tribune.

I appreciate that some of you don't have a very good understanding of economics, but please try to think rationally, not emotionally.

They got a huge cash injection from all us suckers who paid for the lifetime sub.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Steve_K said:


> An excellent question
> 
> I've had good value but not fair value.
> 
> ...


I like your analogy. By jove, I think you're getting through to them!


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Karnak said:


> I really wish you guys would stop speculating about the costs.
> 
> No one knows whether the service was profitable or not. There is no way to know either way, regardless of what any of us might think.
> 
> Stop second guessing the intentions of Tivo. They have the right to stop the service per the Ts&Cs. They're exercising this right. End of.


And I am exercising my right to tell people what a mendacious, scheming, profiteering, untrustworthy Corporation TiVo is. End of.

Wise customers will research TiVo before spending money with them. At least _a few_ will have the sense to steer clear of this lying, greedy enterprise.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

TCM2007 said:


> That's a very hard line perspective.


No, it's not. It's not -- at all! Hence the reason for this thread


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Wise customers will research TiVo before spending money with them. At least _a few_ will have the sense to steer clear of this lying, greedy enterprise.


There is no way for anyone in the UK to spend money with them.

The only "greed" around here is shown by people who think that they should be reimbursed, with interest, for the many years of service they've had from their TiVo because they (mistakenly) think they've spotted a technicality they can claim on.

Thank heavens you don't have the first idea how consumer law works.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Yes, it is!
> 
> They could have just put 6 Million £+ in a high interest account and used the _interest_ to pay Tribune.
> 
> ...


£6M = "A huge cash injection" and talk of "high interest account"s to pay tribune.

What planet do you live on?

That money is peanuts. TiVo's original jaunt into the UK and the support costs since then will have cost them far more than that.


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## LarryDavid (Jan 4, 2007)

I'll admit I haven't read _every_ post in this thread, but I think I get the jist of it.

My real gripe with it (and the reason I continue to try all avenues to keep the service somehow) is the simple fact that they have given absolutely zero, none, nada, zilch explanation of why they have decided to stop the service. They have simply said, 'we're ending it' and that's it.

If they actually came out and said:


It's becoming too expensive to support for the small base of users and we can't see a way to make it at least break even
We had to close it down as part of the deal with Virgin

or whatever the actual reason was, I'd probably just move on.

The way they have done this is what stinks, and so without explanation, we can only assume 'we don't have any real need to pull the service, it just makes our life easier, so long suckers'.

Oh, and to just weigh in a bit on the whole open source argument, strictly speaking its ALL within their copyright obviously, but the real value is the data itself I would have thought, not really in the details of how the service works. Which is at the end of the day just a series of http requests to pull data files, its nothing ground breaking or unique.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> I appreciate that some of you don't have a very good understanding of economics, but please try to think rationally, not emotionally.


Pot kettle, kettle pot.


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## pscsuk (Jul 21, 2004)

I've been an avid TiVo user since the (UK) beginning, and can't get VM TiVo

My feelings are mainly disappointment and sadness (and hope that the alternative EPG can be made to work reasonably)

IMV, TiVo have more than fulfilled their requirements under the 'lifetime' subscription I have. My main upset is simply that I can't get anything else which comes anywhere remotely close to the TiVo user experience. If I could get a VM TiVo, I'd think the cost was worth it. If I could get a 'premium' PVR which had similar facilities to my TiVo with a decent EPG, I'd think it was worth it.

But, I can't. So, basically, I'm left with no choice other than to get a cr***y Sky+ box. (Or hope for an alternative EPG). That's what I'm upset at.

My biggest hope is that VM and/or TiVo realise that they can double their potential TiVo customer base by offering a non-cable alternative (for a monthly subscription). If they did that, I'd be happy. It could be a big win for VM to be able to gain new subscription customers with no infrastructure investment - I just hope they see it that way.


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## Nimbus (May 29, 2004)

pscsuk said:


> My biggest hope is that VM and/or TiVo realise that they can double their potential TiVo customer base by offering a non-cable alternative (for a monthly subscription). If they did that, I'd be happy. It could be a big win for VM to be able to gain new subscription customers with no infrastructure investment - I just hope they see it that way.


Is that really true tho, and dont you think they've already looked at that ?

Otherwise, why has no one ever launched the series 2 or 3 tivos in the UK..

I suspect most people just arent willing to pay the premium for a Tivo over any other generic PVR or sky+ they just dont see the value..

The either want a one off payment, and happy to use the series link and 'video' style features of freeview/freesat PVRs..

Or they are already tied into sky, so a sky+ just about does the job.

Sadly they havent seen the light, people on Virgin are just getting lucky..


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Karnak said:


> £6M = "A huge cash injection" and talk of "high interest account"s to pay tribune.
> 
> What planet do you live on?
> 
> That money is peanuts. TiVo's original jaunt into the UK and the support costs since then will have cost them far more than that.


History lesson for Ms Cassidy:

TiVo hits its stride BBC, 31 May 2002


> The bottom line for the company was a net loss of $35.1m, down from $50.1m last year. Analysts had predicted the company would be much deeper in the red.


TiVo looks on bright side BBC, 22 Aug 2002


> Tivo reported a net loss of [$]3m for the quarter ending 31 July, compared with $34.5m for the same period a year earlier. Revenues were $23.9m, compared with $4.1m a year earlier.


£6m = approx $9m. Anyone that thinks TiVo would ringfence the UK income to provide their service and not offset losses of that magnitude is being pretty naive.


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## pscsuk (Jul 21, 2004)

Nimbus said:


> Is that really true tho, and dont you think they've already looked at that ?
> 
> Otherwise, why has no one ever launched the series 2 or 3 tivos in the UK..


Well, they were tied to Sky before - and Sky promoted the Sky+ box over the TiVo. Before I bought my TiVo I rang the helpdesk for some advice, and they said (almost word for word) 'Don't buy the Tivo, we're bringing out something better in the next few months'. (Ha Ha!). At the time we didn't have Sky, so still bought the TiVo, and I'm glad we did, given the pile of poo that the Sky+ box turned out to be...

Virgin are a bit different as partners - Their box of choice for their customers is the VM TiVo, and for people who can't get VM Cable, they have nothing else they'd prefer to promote either.

Basically TiVo were shafted by Sky, which is a BIG reason the TiVo never took off the first time around. While TiVo was linked to Sky, the TiVo could never be popular. For some reason, TiVo weren't confident enough to 'go it alone' in the UK. Now, TiVo have closed their relationship with Sky.

Also, the world has changed since 10 years ago. Then no one could really grasp the idea of an EPG for recording programmes, or being able to pause live TV etc. Now it would be much more palatable - even with a monthly subscription.



> I suspect most people just arent willing to pay the premium for a Tivo over any other generic PVR or sky+ they just dont see the value..


This still applies to VM Cable customers though! AIUI there is still the V+ box which is cheaper than the VM TiVo, but VM are hopeful that enough people will see the advantage of the TiVo version to pay the extra. Why would people who can't get VM Cable be any different?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> And I am exercising my right to tell people what a mendacious, scheming, profiteering, untrustworthy Corporation TiVo is. End of.


Which, of course, might very-well be defamation and therefore they could sue _you_. The only real defence you have is if it is true; which is plainly and obviously isn't 


pscsuk said:


> This still applies to VM Cable customers though! AIUI there is still the V+ box which is cheaper than the VM TiVo, but VM are hopeful that enough people will see the advantage of the TiVo version to pay the extra. Why would people who can't get VM Cable be any different?


They are also adding (some or all of) the Tivo functionallity - minus recording of course - to _all_ of their STB over time.


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

pscsuk said:


> My biggest hope is that VM and/or TiVo realise that they can double their potential TiVo customer base by offering a non-cable alternative (for a monthly subscription)


But as Nimbus says - if the market is there, why did no UK box manufacturer approach TiVo to license its software and EPG service from 2002 until 2010?

The UK PVR market has long since shifted away from the TiVo subscription model. A Freeview TiVo box would inevitably be considerably more expensive to buy than any of the numerous existing Freeview PVRs, and it would have the added stigma of requiring a paid subscription to enable the EPG and recording functionality.

Given the way the UK market has changed, it would be like trying to reinvent the wheel. There just wouldn't be enough potential customers willing to buy into the concept to make it worth anyone's while.



pscsuk said:


> Also, the world has changed since 10 years ago. Then no one could really grasp the idea of an EPG for recording programmes, or being able to pause live TV etc. Now it would be much more palatable - even with a monthly subscription


Except that no, it wouldn't. The nature of the way the world has changed is that people with Freeview expect to be able to buy a box for about £120-130 that allows them to watch and record Freeview programmes without having to pay anything more. I honestly believe that trying to persuade them to buy a more expensive box and then pay a monthly subscription for an enhanced PVR service would be like trying to push water uphill.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

cwaring said:


> Which, of course, might very-well be defamation and therefore they could sue _you_. The only real defence you have is if it is true; which is plainly and obviously isn't


...or tivocommunity.com for publishing it.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Hmmmm. Yes. Maybe.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

pscsuk said:


> My biggest hope is that VM and/or TiVo realise that they can double their potential TiVo customer base by offering a non-cable alternative (for a monthly subscription). If they did that, I'd be happy. It could be a big win for VM to be able to gain new subscription customers with no infrastructure investment - I just hope they see it that way.


It would have to be a Virgin Media decision. It looks pretty clear from the TiVo financial reports that they are basing their future on collaboration with cable providers, not direct subs. They have never had great numbers in the US or anywhere else from direct business.

Their hopes appear to be based on Virgin, Studio Canal in Scandinavia and Comcast in the US generating indirect subscriptions. These are likely to be well below the monthly sub amounts (if VM are charging £3/month extra, then I'm guessing that has to be shared between Tribune and TiVo with a commission to VM) but should make up for it in volume.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes, TiVo's strategy is very much based around licensing. Arguably stand alone TiVos mainly exists as a brand building exercise.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

On the topic of a 'Non-Cable' VM Freeview TiVo, you could perhaps consider it worthy of VM's efforts if they delivered their catchup/on demand services to it over a net connection but I still struggle to see that many people paying a sizeable subscription for that.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Exactly. The subs model works for Sky and VM (as that is their business model) but not for *FREE*view or *FREE*sat.


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

I think it would be interesting if VM considered it as a way of delivering paid content over the net (ala BT Vision) but they've commented in the past that in order to do that with a decent QOS they need to have end to end control of the network and that someone else's ADSL doesn't give them that.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Dear TiVo fanboys


Yadda, yadda, yadda. . You're getting more hysterical as you go on.

Actually, please continue. It's getting beyond parody now. Is it time to wheel out Hitler?


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

> It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.


A quote from the man himself. Ahem.


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## sbutton (Nov 11, 2006)

ColinYounger said:


> Yadda, yadda, yadda. . You're getting more hysterical as you go on.
> 
> Actually, please continue. It's getting beyond parody now. Is it time to wheel out Hitler?


Ha! You joke, but seriously aren't Tivo behaving just like the Nazi party in the way they are handling this? Probably worse in many ways.

We all really need to get together and DO SOMETHING. Or if we can't quite manage that we should spend our time clogging up the forums talking about DOING SOMETHING.

This company is pure evil, and I'm sure there are probably much better alternatives like Sky and BT who would treat their so-called "customers" much better than this.

I'm so angry by this SCANDAL. I'm sure if Watchdog only get to hear about it they would make a complete series of programmes THAT I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO WATCH BECAUSE I'LL HAVE NO EPG.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Trinitron said:


> History lesson for Ms Cassidy:
> 
> TiVo hits its stride BBC, 31 May 2002
> 
> ...


Food for thought


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## Karnak (Jan 13, 2003)

sbutton said:


> Ha! You joke, but seriously aren't Tivo behaving just like the Nazi party in the way they are handling this? Probably worse in many ways.


Took me a few seconds to realise you weren't serious there


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

You TiVo fanboys realise that american people, who had the foresight in 2002 to buy a lifetime sub, are still reaping the benefits? Yes, I'm sure some have upgraded their harddives, but TiVo didnt send an inspector around to their homes to check. 

TiVo realised they could make more money by stopping the lifetime offer for NEW customers. I remain outraged. Robbing bar stewards.

TiVo's financial analysts and greedy executive(s) should hang their heads in shame


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## GWR71 (Feb 22, 2011)

Jo.Cassady said:


> You TiVo fanboys


What are you if not a fanboy, Jo? You're clearly obsessed with TiVo, joined a web forum about it and want the service to continue - that makes you a fanboy by any reasonable definition of the word.



> TiVo realised they could make more money by stopping the lifetime offer for NEW customers. I remain outraged. Robbing bar stewards


Be honest, you're just a troll, aren't you? No TiVo user could possibly be as detached from reality as you in real life.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Beware of fake commenters working for large, TiVo-like Corporations, infesting message boards to promote their agenda. 

Use your gut instinct, folks. If you think something is morally reprehensible, stay strong and complain.

Give TiVo the reputation kicking it deserve, people.


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## scgf (Oct 24, 2000)

Jo.Cassady, I really can't believe you're making so much fuss about this. Do you also kick up a fuss about the fair-usage policies of mobile phone companies who claim you have 'unlimited' data? Do you complain to the manufacturer of your car because you don't achieve the fuel economy figures they claim? Are you going to kick up a stink when you don't achieve the life expectancy of an average person? Most of us live in the real world and take what companies say with a big pinch of salt.

Welcome to the real world!

I am sure the vast majority of S1 TiVo owners didn't expect TiVo to be providing TV listings for so long after they withdrew from the UK. As long as you got 20 months of listings you're not disadvantaged in any way.

Grow up!


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

GWR71 said:


> What are you if not a fanboy, Jo? You're clearly obsessed with TiVo, joined a web forum about it and want the service to continue - that makes you a fanboy by any reasonable definition of the word.
> 
> Be honest, you're just a troll, aren't you? No TiVo user could possibly be as detached from reality as you in real life.


Yes, I love TiVo, it's a great service. But I will be critical of them when they engage in wrong-doings and deceive people. Fanboys are people unable to engage in critical thinking and are biased.

There is so little interest in TiVo outside of S1 users, no one really cares that they are about to launch. A lot of their future success in the UK will be based on reputation. Which is now in the toilet. And I'm glad, because they're thieves.

TiVo is the kind of thing you have to have in your home and use, on a daily basis, before you 'get' why it's so useful. On paper, it's not compelling.

There is no effing way I would pay an extra £10 a month to subscribe to EPG data though; it's not that useful. It's more than the effing TV license, is it not?

Each one of those 30,000 S1 boxes could serve to recruit friends and family of S1 users. In the house guests have asked 'Oh, I really like this, where can I buy it?' and the answer has always been: 'um, you cant'. Now, greedy mendacious TiVo are bricking all those boxes. It's disgusting.

I have waxed lyrical about TiVo to people, for years. Hopefully you can understand why it's so disappointing for me to see them displaying so much contempt for their customers.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Beware of fake commenters working for large, TiVo-like Corporations, infesting message boards to promote their agenda.


I get it now. You're working for Rupert Murdoch 


> Use your gut instinct, folks. If you think something is morally reprehensible, stay strong and complain.


I do.


> Give TiVo the reputation kicking it deserve, people.


I would if it did but it doesn't.


Jo.Cassady said:


> Yes, I love TiVo, it's a great service. But I will be critical of them when they engage in wrong-doings and deceive people. Fanboys are people unable to engage in critical thinking and are biased.


Well of the two sides, you being on one and us the "fanboys" on the other, I know which one is doing the more real-world, common-sense thinking. And it ain't your lot  


> There is so little interest in TiVo outside of S1 users, no one really cares that they are about to launch.


I'd say that the reported 50,000 pre-registrants would be a good indicator that there is actually a _lot_ of interest in the new Tivo.


> A lot of their future success in the UK will be based on reputation.


What past reputation? I doubt the vast majority of the above 50,000 people will never even have _heard_ of them before.


> Which is now in the toilet.


Except that it's not, of course.


> And I'm glad, because they're thieves.


You might want to look up the terms defamation and libel 


> There is no effing way I would pay an extra £10 a month to subscribe to EPG data though...


Well the current VM price is only £3 per month 


> ...it's not that useful.


Other than being the whole reason for the way Tivo actually works, you mean? 


> It's more than the effing TV license, is it not?


That would be "not". LF currently £12.12. Yet *another* fact you have got wrong. Good job we're not keeping score, eh? 


> Each one of those 30,000 S1 boxes could serve to recruit friends and family of S1 users.


We're all pretty-sure there's nothing like 30,000 still in use.


> I have waxed lyrical about TiVo to people, for years.


As have we all.


> Hopefully you can understand why it's so disappointing for me to see them displaying so much contempt for their customers.


Nope. Not a clue, because they're not doing that.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

Jo.Cassady said:


> There is no effing way I would pay an extra £10 a month to subscribe to EPG data though; it's not that useful. It's more than the effing TV license, is it not?


Its more than a B&W licence anyway.

If its not worth £10 per month. Its not worth much at all is it.

Alek


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

scgf said:


> Are you going to kick up a stink when you don't achieve the life expectancy of an average person?


yes, I will complain vociferously if I die before I am supposed to.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

Apparently, Virgin TiVo charges are :


£200 for the cost of the box... okay

"Up to" £36/month for EPG data: They are already _doomed_! Now I get _why_ they are doing this. They want to rake in as much money as possible, before they go bust.


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## djqster (Oct 22, 2010)

Jo.Cassady said:


> [*]"Up to" £36/month for EPG data: They are already _doomed_! Now I get _why_ they are doing this. They want to rake in as much money as possible, before they go bust.


The £36 includes the telly subscription. The actual TiVo supplement is IIRC £3.

For someone who put their TiVo up for sale last November I'm not quite sure what the big hissy fit is about, beyond the fact that you TiVo is now worth about a pound.


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

djqster said:


> The £36 includes the telly subscription. The actual TiVo supplement is IIRC £3.
> 
> For someone who put their TiVo up for sale last November I'm not quite sure what the big hissy fit is about, beyond the fact that you TiVo is now worth about a pound.


The TiVo supplement of £3 is more palatable, can someone confirm? They might have a good chance of success (if true)

This isn't about _me_.

I have more than 1 TiVo.

It's the principle, man. It's the principle.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

djqster said:


> The £36 includes the telly subscription. The actual TiVo supplement is IIRC £3


Which she would have known had she asked, done some research, or not 'ignored' me


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

You can't pay £3 on it's own though - TiVo is only currently available on the XL TV package.

For that £36 you also get a phone line with unlimited weekend calls, 
as well as TiVo and all the channels XL package give you.

Most people would be paying £12 line rental to BT - that would no longer be needed, so the effective cost comes down to £24 for some.

For many existing customers taking more services (including myself - broadband,tv phone and 2 cable boxes) the monthly bill went down after getting TiVo...


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## Jo.Cassady (Jul 21, 2002)

mikerr said:


> You can't pay £3 on it's own though - TiVo is only currently available on the XL TV package.
> 
> For that £36 you also get a phone line with unlimited weekend calls,
> as well as TiVo and all the channels XL package give you.
> ...


Interesting. How much is their entry-level package?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

mikerr said:


> You can't pay £3 on it's own though - TiVo is only *currently* available on the XL TV package.


The bolded word beiing the operative one, of course


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Something seems to have snapped in Jo.Cassady's head; reading their posts in the last 24hrs, all semblance of reason has gone; they have become a ranting troll. Best to leave well alone.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Jo.Cassady said:


> Interesting. How much is their entry-level package?


I thought you had VM?



Jo.Cassady said:


> I heard about TiVo apparently appearing on Virgin Media a few months back. My heart sank as I didn't live in a cabled street.
> 
> Well, now I have Virgin Media.


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