# Lost - "Flashes Before Your Eyes" - OAD 2/14/2007 - *SPOILERS*



## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

A nice, albeit headache inducing, EW article on the "Black Hole Theory" to get the ball rolling, here: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20011756,00.html.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

From the posting guidelines:

---
Timing of official threads:
Do not start the official show thread more than 1 hour before the air date in the earliest market. The new thread should be about the new show. 
---

Please try and follow this, otherwise it just becomes an arms race to see who can start one the earliest, and then by the time the show airs, some folks don't see the first one and then we end up with two.

Not a moderator, just trying to give a friendly reminder.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

This is a good episode...........And though the OP was in early, the theory of the article seems like it could be plausible.

The article quotes the producers.......when is a flashback not a flashback.......

Maybe when it is a flash forward.......or the flashback time is the reailty and .....oh my head hurts......

IIRC, blacks holes would actually bend and wreak havoc on the space time continuum......that would support the possibility that if the island is or is like ablack hole, that Desmond could be experiencing the past present and future all at the same time........


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Wow.....that ending..........

Lost is really back!


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## mattpol (Jul 23, 2003)

WOWWWW! This show is AWESOME!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Agreed.....quickest hour in a long time for this show. :up: :up: :up:


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

ok.....here's one wild idea...........

We have the biblical angle with the baby being named Aaron.......

We have theories about second chances....trying to make things right.....sort of like ressurection of the soul...........

We have Penny calling Des "a great man"

So I decided to anagram "a great man" and one result that caught my eye is: at a manger

I doubt this is the right angle, but I did find it interesting nonetheless..........


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

jlb said:


> IIRC, blacks holes would actually bend and wreak havoc on the space time continuum......that would support the possibility that if the island is or is like ablack hole, that Desmond could be experiencing the past present and future all at the same time....


Great, great episode! I agree the ending caught me completely off-guard! And I like the speculation that Desmond is living in multiple realities...

Edit: Corrected my quoting...


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

The idea of multiple realities is not mine....it is from the article noted by the OP.........here is a quote from that article:



> My gut tells me that Desmond's newest opus, entitled ''Flashes Before Your Eyes,'' could be a box of crackerjacks for theory-famished Lostophiles  especially those who've detected some similarities between the show and the Alan Moore/Dave Gibbons comic classic Watchmen. Could Desmond = Dr. Manhattan, the omnipotent/impotent superman who experiences past, present, and future all at once? (Actually, maybe Desmond is more akin to Billy Pilgrim, the ''unstuck in time'' hero of Slaughterhouse-Five.) We shall see when ''Flashes...'' flickers across our screens this evening...


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Although I liked the episode as a standalone hour of TV, I am having a really hard time enjoying it within the confines of the framework that's been built up so far. That whole conversation with the lady at the jewelry store made me think of Neon and The Oracle and, to a smaller extent The 12 Monkeys. I loved The Matrix and The 12 Monkeys; I love Lost. I just felt like this episode took a 90 degree turn somewhere, and I'm just nor sure why.


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

It has been a long, long time since I really watched this show with much attention, so maybe I missed something here.

Desmond is re-experiencing his life on the island (from the key forward). OK. So he experienced Charlie getting hit by lightning. How did he experience Charlie drowning the next day if Charlie was already dead?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Claire didn't die to lightning, charlie did.

This was a really strong episode, perhaps the best this season. Despite that, the whole final destination thing is kind of corny.

Didn't someone die saving someone else from drowning a while back in this show as well? Possibly brought back. Was that charlie saving claire? I only vaguely recall it.

Why wouldn't desmond tell her to look for him in x years?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Too tired to do any lengthy post, but wanted to throw in my quick "Great episode!" vote.. I'm sure I'll watch it again (it feels like I've already watched it a few times..... hmm), and post later.

Data's mom sure knows a lot. I wonder if Hurley was in any way responsible for the death of the guy with red shoes?


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Is this all tied to Charlie's "death" when he was hanged by Ethan? Was he supposed to die then? Is this the universe trying to get him?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

How many times has Desmond lived through this?

Gives a fresh perspective to his catch phrase "see you in another life..."


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

wprager said:


> I just felt like this episode took a 90 degree turn somewhere, and I'm just nor sure why.


I had that feeling too, but it's probably just time-travel whiplash.  Seriously, I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not sure it's a bad turn for the show.

The thing that saves it for me is that you don't have to invoke time travel as such to interpret the episode. His flashback was just that, a flashback, basically a dream, that is a constructed reality. You can interpret the flashforwards within the flashback as just his incorporation of the memory of things he had actually already done into his dream.

After he wakes up he continues to have flashforwards, which you can interpret either as precognition, or as remembrances within the flashback or dream that he is now having at some future time. That is, this is all just his dream.

And that ambiguity of what is real, what is imagined, what is a dream, who is dreaming, has been a recurrent theme of the show.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

I'm pretty sure we got a new literary reference tonight, too (no, not the pile o' porn, but the copy of _Laughter in the Dark_ by Vladimir Nabokov that Hurley was browsing.) Haven't read it myself, but I did note in the Wikipedia entry that the original title (in Russian) is, basically, "Camera Obscura".

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought about Billy Pilgrim and Dr. Manhattan when they saw this (of course, I am in the middle of re-reading _Watchmen_.) There's another, similar sci-fi story (another "unstuck in time" motif) that I remember reading in a collection quite some time ago, but the name has eluded me ("<something><mumble> Purple <somethingelse>" is all I can come up with.)


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Man, that went quick. Glad to see other people felt the same. Tying Penny back into the show is important. We've got Sawyer-Kate-Jack triangle, Claire-Charlie, Jack-Blonde Other and the occasional random love story going on, but I can see the Desmond-Penny storyline being something that actually takes us all the way to end of the show, and, dare I say it, "off the island." Just a great episode. I can't wait to see the complaints that say, "Well, we still don't know anything more about the 4-toed statue.."


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Liked that when he was tying his tie to get ready to see her dad, he looked at the clock which read 1:08..


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

WOW....

*"LOST" is BACK!*


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

Great episode!

Of course, in typical Lost fashion, it poses more questions than it answers.

So, after Desmond turned the key, did he get thrown back into the "real" world? Is that where all these premonitions are coming from? Has he actually live further into the future and is now back in the "current" time of the rest of the Losties?

Can't wait to see next week!


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> Liked that when he was tying his tie to get ready to see her dad, he looked at the clock which read 1:08..


Yeah....

"What did you say brotha?"

"Package 4 8 15"....


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

Redux said:


> Desmond is re-experiencing his life on the island (from the key forward). OK. So he experienced Charlie getting hit by lightning. How did he experience Charlie drowning the next day if Charlie was already dead?


Because the assumption is that he's done it more than one time. Charlie dies by lightning, he goes back saves him from the lightning, Charlie later drowns, he goes back, saves him from the lightning one day, saves him from drowning, but Charlie dies when X...


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

WTF? I need to watch it again. That was a top 5 ever Lost episode.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

The paint can seemed to say "Future" on it (you can make out F U T U).

The art on Widmore's wall says Namaste backwards, has a polar bear, mountains, and an upside-down statue.

When he walks into the jewelry store, the first thing the woman says to him is "Never done this before, have you?".. Great line from her now that we've seen the whole episode.

At first I thought "Why does she even show him the ring?", then after watching the scene carefully it's clear she's on autopilot until he says "I'll take it".. at that point she actually looks surprised for a second, and says "I'm sorry?".. So apparently it's "normal" for him to go in there, but he usually (or maybe the better word is previously) has/had second thoughts and leaves/left.

If I felt uneasy at any point in the episode, it was there (and the scenes with her after that).. Those were also scenes I loved.. I just don't want the writers to get stuck in a corner they can't get out of.. If she _has_ to be god or something, they're stuck on that line (which maybe they could do well, but they've been keeping everything balanced). You could say she doesn't have to be - she could be just in his head (or the whole "flashback" is).. Or you could try saying she was a psychic that knows everything but still decides to sell jewelry (far less interesting than choice #1). Still, I liked it, and when it comes to the writers of the show - let's say I have faith.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

hefe said:


> How many times has Desmond lived through this?
> 
> Gives a fresh perspective to his catch phrase "see you in another life..."


Nice catch, hefe. :up:

I believe he said that this was his third go at reliving things. He said that Charlie first drowned at sea trying to save Claire, then again when lightning struck him, and this time he lives -- for now -- but death will catch up with him one way or anothuh, brothuh.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

As much as I like the reliving it over and over again idea, it still doesn't do as good a job at explaining any premonitions _after_ turning the key as the following idea does:

Turning the key "unsnapped" his life from being lived in order.. He's living his life out of order (ala Slaughterhouse Five), or something like it, and that would allow him to have memories of things that happen throughout his entire life..

Along that theory, he's remembering stuff, so he's changing things based on those memories.. Of course he shouldn't remember any previous versions of anything, but he does seem to have spotty memories as it is, so maybe that'd work out.

It all boils down to whether consciousness is tied to our bodies or not..

One last thing on this: it did seem that his jump was accompanied by hitting his head.. turn the key, jump to a point where you'd fallen painting and hit your head.. then you snap out when hit in the head with a bat. Maybe his next jump will happen when he's hit again?


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

The scenes with "Data's Mom" (Fionnula Flanagan) reminded me of Guinan scenes from "Yesterday's Enterprise." 

I thought it was interesting that she was wearing purple too. 


EXCELLENT episode!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lordargent (Nov 12, 2002)

Looks like my wish might come true, Charlie is gonna die, dead man walking, no matter what anyone does.

/my lost character death/removal list is nearly complete

Boone (bit it)
Shannon (bit it)
Charlie (on the way)
Michael (sailed away)
Claire & baby (when charlie gets whacked, maybe)
Waaaaaaalt (sailed away)



scottykempf said:


> Is this all tied to Charlie's "death" when he was hanged by Ethan? Was he supposed to die then? Is this the universe trying to get him?


I'm getting a "dead like me" vibe. I was almost expecting to see gravelings fleeing from where the guy in the red shoes bought it.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> ... he's remembering stuff, so he's changing things based on those memories.. Of course he shouldn't remember any previous versions of anything, but he does seem to have spotty memories as it is, so maybe that'd work out...


I wonder if he will have another memory which will include his lunch with Libby when she gave him the boat ("Elizabeth").


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Damon Lindeloff has said in interviews that he is a big Stephen King fan and this episode was a HUGE Dark Tower reference. It's totally an homage to that amazing series.

I'm not sure if the series is completely back on track-but this episode reaffirmed my faith in the possibilities of the show.

Also-another plus-no Others!


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

Wow, just finished it, and what a fabulous episode.

Groundhog Day is my favorite movie, and Lost is my favorite TV show.


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## lordargent (Nov 12, 2002)

Also, now we know how Desmond knew Jack back in season 1 on the stairs.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Wow.. Go back and sing yourself the lyrics to Make Your Own Kind of Music..

(I downloaded the song after episode 1 of season 2 and have played it hundreds of times, but if you don't know it as well as me, the lyrics are at:

http://www.casselliot.com/lyrics.htm
)

Maybe he shouldn't have listened to Data's mom..

(or maybe he had no choice, and him loving that song is nature's cruel joke)


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm thinking this is some sort of multiverse crossover issue inside Desmond's head. When Desmond went back to the faux-past, he actually was in a parallel universe that was almost exactly like the past. Now when he see's Charlie's death, he gets flashes of himself in other universes that are almost the same as this one but a few minutes (hours, days, depending on the universe) ahead. That's why he can see Charlie die by lightning AND by drowning. The drowning universe is different from the lightning universe. The earlier persons comparison to Stephen King's Dark Tower series is a good example of this. Michael Crichton also wrote a lot about the multiverse physics theory in his novel Timeline.

BTW, awesome episode! :up:


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> Is this all tied to Charlie's "death" when he was hanged by Ethan? Was he supposed to die then? Is this the universe trying to get him?


That was my thought as well.
Does Desmond know that Charlie died at Ethan's hands and was revived by Jack?

And yes, this does give new meaning to Desmond's catch phrase "See you in another life, brothar!"


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## brott (Feb 23, 2001)

hefe said:


> How many times has Desmond lived through this?
> 
> Gives a fresh perspective to his catch phrase "see you in another life..."


Deja Vu


brott said:


> The thing that sticks the most in my head is Desmond saying "See you in another life, Brother" as he goes to turn the key. This is the same thing that Desmond stated to Jack in the Stadium at the beginning of the season. I am really beginning to think that "the incident" set off some kind of groundhog-day like scenerio where the Island is stuck in some sort of time-loop.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

bpurcell said:


> I'm thinking this is some sort of multiverse crossover issue inside Desmond's head. When Desmond went back to the faux-past, he actually was in a parallel universe that was almost exactly like the past. Now when he see's Charlie's death, he gets flashes of himself in other universes that are almost the same as this one but a few minutes (hours, days, depending on the universe) ahead. That's why he can see Charlie die by lightning AND by drowning. The drowning universe is different from the lightning universe. The earlier persons comparison to Stephen King's Dark Tower series is a good example of this. Michael Crichton also wrote a lot about the multiverse physics theory in his novel Timeline.
> 
> BTW, awesome episode! :up:


Except this doesn't explain the Ring Woman. Up until Desmond changed his fate-she was pretending to be part of the normalcy. When he decided to get the ring, she interjected and told him that he was not doing things right, and then knew every aspect of his life. Does this explain how The Others also have information on everybody and everything?

"And another thing, Vonnegut!"

Here's my worthless prediction. The next episode that features a Desmond "flashback" will have him in the same situation-he will remember everything from The Island. He will then tell Penny-"In 3 years I'm going to be stuck on an island in the South Pacific. The only way you will find me is there will be a massive discharge of magnetic energy. Then, after Desmond dissapears, Penny hires a group of people to search for the island, and that's what happens in the Season 2 finale, when the Arctic Scientists call Penny on the phone and tell her they found the island after the hatch blew.

Desmond can't change what happens to him PRIOR to arriving on the island-but he can tell Penny to find him after he activates the failsafe.

Briliant, brilliant, mindbending stuff. IF only all the episodes were of this calibur.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

I loved the preview for next week, and the promise...


Spoiler



...that three of the biggest mysteries will be answered. Then, they only showed us two: Jack's tattoo (not what I would consider one of the biggest mysteries); and what the Others did with the people that they took ("We're here to watch").

I half expected the announcer to say something like "will that make you people happy?"


I missed Lost.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

getbak said:


> I loved the preview for next week, and the promise...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


That would have been great if the announcer had said that.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

From the preview for next week:



Spoiler



She said "We're here to watch.."



Where have I heard that line in Lost before? Have I? It sounds familiar..


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

Fraser+Dief said:


> Because the assumption is that he's done it more than one time.


That is what people here are telling me. I don't get it. The specific Desmond at any point in time (assuming the re-cycling which I can't find any evidence for) remembers only what he has experienced at that point. He doesn't know what the next Desmond knows. In this episode, with this particular Desmond, Charlie was hit by lightning (which Desmond prevented). There is no drowned Charlie in this Desmond's experience. The NEXT Desomond, if you accept the re-cycling premise, sure. But not the Desmond of this episode.

I accept the nonsense. But within that nonsense I think there is a writer failure of coherence.

Edited to add: OK I guess I get it as I think it out. This IS the next Desmond, the one after the lightning. So he knows about the lightning (from the last Desmond) but he also knows about the drowning in this cycle. But, at this point, he doesn't know exactly what is coming up in Charlie's future as far as method of death.

I guess it works, kinda. But in the path we're on, accepting the re-cycling, the writers can pretty much do whatever they want. Holodeck, transporter anomalies, takion particles, pretty much anything goes. Are we still having fun?


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

When Desmond told the ring lady that she was HIS CONSCIENCE, didn't the ring lady confirm that by not saying anything?

Love the speculation that Desmond told Penny about the magnetic energy! That would explain everything. Except that would mean he physically went back in time. 

How did he get back? And why was he naked? Shout out to the Terminator?


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

getbak said:


> I loved the preview for next week, and the promise...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


The other is probably



Spoiler



how Locke was paralyzed


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I'm not convinced that Charlie's previous "death" by Ethan was part of the current pattern. It was probably at least a month ago in Island Time and based on what the ring lady was telling Desmond and the lightning and Claire's near-drowning being a day apart (or am I wrong on that?), it's possible that Ethan was just an isolated near-death incident.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I'd really like to see a comparison of The Dark Tower series to Lost. I've read up through book four and frankly I can't see any comparison. That doesn't mean there isn't one but it must be hidden in the subtext.

I don't know about the whole "universe has a way of course corrrecting itself". Frankly the entire plan crashing into the water from 30,000 feet should have left everyone dead. But it didn't. 

The comparison to Neo and the Oracle is also interesting. Though, in that conversation the Oracle (when referring to choices) is not the choice itself but the why of the choice. Was Neo destined to go to the machine city? 

Was Desmond destined to go to the Island? Was Data's mom correct in saying that if he didn't go back in time, the key wouldn't get turned? If Desmond was never on the island, the Losties wouldn't have known about the numbers, there woudn't have been anyone in the hatch when they opened it. The entire story would have been much different. It's possible that if Desmond didn't go to the island that the plane never would have crashed in the first place because he said he thought it was his fault that the plane crashed in the first place.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> I'd really like to see a comparison of The Dark Tower series to Lost. I've read up through book four and frankly I can't see any comparison. That doesn't mean there isn't one but it must be hidden in the subtext.


When you've finished Dark Tower, the comparison will be screamingly obvious.
Dark Tower ending spoiler:


Spoiler



At the end of the last book, the universe resets and Roland starts off across the desert after the Dark Man, but because of his actions in his previous life, things are slightly different, and there's the hope that this time at last he'll be able to end the cycle.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Anytime we delve even remotely into time travel, parallel universes, time loops, or the temporal continuum, minds boggle. It is just difficult to fathom when the  Grandfather paradox keeps beating in your brain.



jkeegan said:


> It all boils down to whether consciousness is tied to our bodies or not..


As do *all* of lifes most interesting questions.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Didn't the writer say the hatch was not related to time travel? Or did we just assume it?


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

I have not watched it a second time. Can someone remember whether the Jewelry shop lady actually said something about turing the key or did she say push the button? In Lost world, pushing the button means entering teh numbers at the keyboard. Is it possible that this is the first time he has used the Key and therefore things have sort of gone off the map?

I thought the whole flashback with Desmond was very interesting given the arguments in last weeks thread about whether the flashbacks could be construed as the real world gospel truth or not.

I loved the episode. I also thought the same thing as many of you. Lost is back, take that haters!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Lee L said:


> I have not watched it a second time. Can someone remember whether the Jewelry shop lady actually said something about turning the key or did she say push the button?


Both, I'm pretty sure...


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Lee L said:


> I thought the whole flashback with Desmond was very interesting given the arguments in last weeks thread about whether the flashbacks could be construed as the real world gospel truth or not.


Are you sure you're not referring to the Studio 60 thread? Whoa, we seem to have an alternative universe crossover here.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Data's mom...


*THANK YOU!*

I was about to go nuts trying to place why that actress looked so familiar!


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

bdlucas said:


> Are you sure you're not referring to the Studio 60 thread? Whoa, we seem to have an alternative universe crossover here.


Well, I might be.  I am pretty sure people have argued about that in the past, but Maybe the S60 thread is what I was remembering.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

It's interesting how this episode touched on some of David Hume's (Desmond's philosophical namesake) writings on causation and free will vs. determinism. Given how many names they've used (Locke, Rousseau) it doesn't seem like they've really gotten into those things too deeply. I remember Locke talking about property rights once back in like the first season, but that's about it.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

So, now we know one big secret of the LOST island.
The Universe Hates Hobbits!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> *THANK YOU!*
> 
> I was about to go nuts trying to place why that actress looked so familiar!


Assuming you're talking about the ring lady, I recognized her from The Others. That can't be a coincidence!!


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> When you've finished Dark Tower, the comparison will be screamingly obvious.
> Dark Tower ending spoiler:
> 
> 
> ...


Funny.. I was just thinking this morning.....



Spoiler



That the series ending is going to be everyone back on the plane, some turbulence, cut to the hatch and Desmond actually pushes the button this time and the plane continues on it's way


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## tanstaafl (Oct 22, 2002)

Anyone done a freeze-frame on the burst of images we got when Desmond turned the key? Anything interesting in there?

Has ring-lady shown up in any previous episodes?

I'll point out that red-shoe guy died when a construction scaffolding collapsed on him, and Widmore is the head of Widmore Construction. Coincidence?


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## 2DoubleDown7 (May 17, 2004)

its official....my brain hurts. Love this show!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Wow.. Go back and sing yourself the lyrics to Make Your Own Kind of Music..
> 
> (I downloaded the song after episode 1 of season 2 and have played it hundreds of times, but if you don't know it as well as me, the lyrics are at:
> 
> ...


When you think how spot-on those lyrics are, and how many episodes ago we first heard them, it helps one appreciate how complex a web the writers are weaving for us. While I have never doubted their oft stated disclaimer ("Yes, we do know where we're going with this, and we do know how it ends"), perhaps this will convince the doubters.

Or maybe the non-believers have already voted themselves off the island.


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## Roommate (Apr 23, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Assuming you're talking about the ring lady, I recognized her from The Others. That can't be a coincidence!!


I couldn't place it until atrac mentioned the actress' name (Fionnula Flanagan), but most recently I recognize her as Rose Caffee on Showtime's Brotherhood.

Best episode of the season, so far!


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Thank you Rob Helmerichs for spoilerizing the Dark Tower ending. I've only read the first two...one of these days I'll get around to finishing the series. I have to admit, I was tempted to highlight and read just so I could get the reference. But maybe I'll take the summer and finish the whole series so by the time Season 3 comes out on DVD I'll finally have that "ohhhhhh" moment 

After watching the first like 15 minutes of the show and there hadn't been a flashback I started thinking, I bet this whole episode will be one of Desmond's premonitions and at the end he'll wake up or something. I had it backwards. After the first 15 minutes the entire episode was one long flashback. This is the first time they've done a whole flashback without cutting back and forth to island time. I liked it. But I kept expecting another snow globe reference. Maybe its just because whenever I see Desmond drunk I remember his snow globe rant from last season.

I enjoyed this episode. It definately feels like Lost is back. I can't wait to get some answers next week...hopefully they'll be REAL answers and not just some marketing scheme to make sure everyone tunes in next week.

P.S. I love Charlie and I really don't want to see him go. Losing Mr. Echo was enough for me this season. If they kill off Charlie, they may as well kill off Hurley next and get rid of all the comic relief on the show.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

So instead of every week seeing "Oh my God, they killed Kenny!", we'll get "Oh my God, he saved Charlie!"


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

Is the fact that this thread is only 3 pages (look at some of season 2's threads) indicative that this show has jumped the shark?


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

I find it rather funny that we have "half" a season of dealing with Jack and the kidnapped losties and the boards here are hostile to the point of canceling season passes. Two episodes into the second "half" of the season and everything back on track. Is this because the Others are rather boring or because it seemed like in those first six episodes that the other losties had been neglected too much by focusing on Jack and company? 

I don't think the show ever lost its way (no pun intended).


Putting that aside, I'm wondering about Charlie. There is more than just Charlie on the island who should be dead. If Charlie is supposed to be dead by way of lightening, then it follows that Charlie was destined to be on the island. Does that mean that all the losties were destined to be there as well? That no matter what occured prior to them going to Austrailia, they were going to end up on the island? I'm thinking too much about this.


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## 7thton (Mar 3, 2005)

I think the figure on Mr. Widmore's painting was a Buddha.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> When you think how spot-on those lyrics are, and how many episodes ago we first heard them, it helps one appreciate how complex a web the writers are weaving for us. While I have never doubted their oft stated disclaimer ("Yes, we do know where we're going with this, and we do know how it ends"), perhaps this will convince the doubters.


My gut feeling is that the "they're just making it up as they go along" crowd are going to feel sillier and sillier as time goes by...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

tanstaafl said:


> Anyone done a freeze-frame on the burst of images we got when Desmond turned the key? Anything interesting in there?


http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/index.html


----------



## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> Putting that aside, I'm wondering about Charlie. There is more than just Charlie on the island who should be dead. If Charlie is supposed to be dead by way of lightening, then it follows that Charlie was destined to be on the island. Does that mean that all the losties were destined to be there as well? That no matter what occured prior to them going to Austrailia, they were going to end up on the island? I'm thinking too much about this.


My take on this is that they ALL should be dead. Something saved them and the universe will correct itself and kill them all over time.

Would be a terrible end to the show if I'm right.


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

I still want to know how it is that echo is speed-bagged by a bunch of smoke. This is where the show lost me (no pun intended).

I liked this episode. I liked the last episode. I didn't love either. I didn't feel the need to research theories this morning. I don't feel the need to talk about it with co-workers anymore. When someone says "I don't watch Lost," I don't look at them like they have three heads.

I honestly think that this series probably lends itself better to DVD than it does to television. The show frustrates me with it's endless questions. Every time we think we have an answer, we're thrown another curve ball. Let's just say that I don't put too much stock in the teaser for next week. Why should I?

I feel like I'm on the edge. I want to love this show again. If they just start to tie up at least a couple of these loose ends...


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## Magister (Oct 17, 2004)

The actor playing Echo wanted to get off the show. He was being hard to deal with and that was the quickest way to drop him. Yeah, no one was happy to lose him except his coworkers.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I may be smeeking, but one my coworkers pointed out the Wizard of Oz homage with the red shoes. That one flew right over my head.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

mask2343 said:


> My take on this is that they ALL should be dead. Something saved them and the universe will correct itself and kill them all over time.
> 
> Would be a terrible end to the show if I'm right.


I like this. I proposed a purgatory theory long ago, but the writers have said "you will never hear the word purgatory on Lost".

This would be a similar way to get to the same end. If everybody was supposed to dead anyway, and it just takes them longer to get there, by way of the Hatch, Desmond, or whatever, that makes a lot of sense to me.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Re: Has Desmond done this before, how does he know about the future, etc.?

My understanding was that Desmond said that when he was back in the past, he got flashes of the future. Stuff that he'd already done, which is why he could predict the future.

Then he said something like, "But when I got back to the island, the flashes didn't stop."

So that tells me that he hasn't necessarily had to have lived through the future already but just that he's been given some kind of premonition ability.


----------



## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

So has it ever been answered why Desmond, while in the hatch, was injecting himself with whatever drug?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

This was a very good episode.

But how does Dharma fit into all of this?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Magister said:


> The actor playing Echo wanted to get off the show. He was being hard to deal with and that was the quickest way to drop him. Yeah, no one was happy to lose him except his coworkers.


On the 11/6/06 podcast, the producers said the original deal with the actor was that he would be on the show for a year. They said that he wanted to do the show, but did not want to enter into a long term commitment, and that they always knew that they would have a short arc for the character.

In fact, they actually asked Adewale if they could extend his character into season 3, because they didn't want his death to happen too closely to the other two tailies, Anna Lucia and Libby, and he agreed to it.

As for how he might have been on the set, I have not heard anything about that, but either way, that's not why his character died.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Wow, I sorta hated this episode. Guess I wasn't in the mood to be deeply thinking about all this time travel junk. I just figured he hit his head and his life flashed before his eyes and for whatever reason stuff that hadn't happened yet flashed too. And I just assumed the Ring Woman and stuff was his subconscious.

Maybe I just don't wanna think that much at 10pm... just feed me some answers, Lost.


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## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

I must be getting old, because the first thing that came to mind when Charlie's sign said "Charlie Hieronymus Pace" was Gary Coleman's  Hieronymus Fox character on Buck Rodgers. 

Well, he was a 20th century kid living in the 25th century...


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I don't think that they are "making up as they go along", but I also think they most certainly have not fully planned out in detail. I think they know how every major plot point is going to end, but they have not decided how long to drag it out. And they keep introducing new plot points along the way to elongate the mysteries they already know the answer to but don't want us to.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

sbourgeo said:


> I must be getting old, because the first thing that came to mind when Charlie's sign said "Charlie Hieronymus Pace" was Gary Coleman's  Hieronymus Fox character on Buck Rodgers.
> 
> Well, he was a 20th century kid living in the 25th century...


I LOVED this episode and it will give me something to watch over a couple times. I had things jumping out of my head all night.

Okay here are a few wild thoughts, not in any order -

What came to mind when I was watching - the wall hanging above the bed - looked like the symbols that click over after the clock went down to 0000. There were other things - the microwave beep, the polar bear painting, many have been mentioned.

And Charlie! Well, actually Charlie Hieronymous Pace! Interesting, that artist Hieronymous Bosch painted repeated themes of the consequences of life, and the punishments of hell. His painting, Garden of Earthly Delights http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/5361/boshrealvb4.jpg is of that theme.
Where would his parents have found that name? almost like James _Tiberius _ Kirk.

And a quick question, has anyone ever seen "La Jetee"? a great time travel movie. Desmond would appreciate it.

So the big one, if Des did indeed go back in time, why didn't he recognize the Losties before? and why didn't he know about the button before Kelvin told him, or anything else that happened that he didn't seem to know? 
Thinking on this, I figure one possibility is his answer to his friend in the pub that he basically can't recall events at will, but that it comes in pieces, like moments of deja vu. Maybe it just didn't come to him in those moments. Maybe he temporarily lost his ability when he got smacked with the cricket bat and it didn't come back until the hatch implosion.

And, lastly, this is not my observation but from Kristin on E online

"Did anyone notice that the physics friend he went to see was also the Heroes friend that Mohinder Suresh went to see? Plus, in the last ep of Heroes, they showed a pamplet for Gannon Rent-a-Car, which is totally a fictional company from the Lost world! Also, some of the Heroes writers came from the Lost camp. I smell a conspiracy. A really nerdy yet cool conspiracy! Will Peter's bomb blast the Heroes to Lost island? Just a crazy thought! "

Thought it was good to share that one1


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

From what we saw in the episode, desmond's "conscious" only seemed to jump back so far and then jumped forward. That's assuming we are to take literally the fact that he "woke up" on the floor with paint and then got "knocked out" and "woke up" back in the forest. So he was never back with kurgen and the button or similar.

As to how that would work, it's all theory. I suggest that he had a limited conscious experience of jumping through time but he is still somehow aware of the other time lines still due to after shock or similar.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

betts4 said:


> "Did anyone notice that the physics friend he went to see was also the Heroes friend that Mohinder Suresh went to see?


I did notice this. I chalked it up to casting laziness.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Magister said:


> The actor playing Echo wanted to get off the show. He was being hard to deal with and that was the quickest way to drop him. Yeah, no one was happy to lose him except his coworkers.


I'm pretty sure the actor playing Echo left because he wanted to write/direct a movie about his own life story.

Here's a quote from Entertainment Weekly (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1553848,00.html)



> Speaking in his native British accent (which he's never used in any role), he explains why leaving ABC's hit show was actually a ''joyous'' moment. His heightened profile, he says, has opened doors to potential financiers for his longtime pet project: Akinnuoye-Agbaje plans to direct and star in an autobiographical film he wrote about growing up in foster care and on the tough streets of London.


I think the rumors of the one that was being difficult to work with was about Michelle Rodriguez (Ana Lucia)


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> I think the rumors of the one that was being difficult to work with was about Michelle Rodriguez (Ana Lucia)


...who also only had a one year deal, right from the start.


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

unicorngoddess said:


> I'm pretty sure the actor playing Echo left because he wanted to write/direct a movie about his own life story.
> 
> Here's a quote from Entertainment Weekly (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1553848,00.html)
> 
> I think the rumors of the one that was being difficult to work with was about Michelle Rodriguez (Ana Lucia)


There were plenty of stories about AAA being difficult to work with. I know Terry O'Quinn, for one, has basically said "good riddance," and the producers have made very carefully worded comments when they are asked about AAA. They could have easily said, "he was great to work with, we all loved him, we didn't want him to go, etc.." But they don't. That is evidenced in the article you linked to. I'm not saying he was kicked off the show, as the exit time was pre-planned, but it does seem that most of the cast/crew/executives were glad to see him go, which is telling.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> I'm pretty sure the actor playing Echo left because he wanted to write/direct a movie about his own life story.


It's Eko, and as has been pointed out numerous times, he left because he was always intended to leave after one year, and in fact did a few extra episodes.


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## durl (Dec 1, 2005)

When Desmond first turned the key, I had a theory that there is a time loop and Desmond was somehow freed from it's effects just enough to remember what happens. (I haven't done a ton of research on everything Desmond has said in the past to see how it all comes together. But I wonder if Desmond made the "map" drawing on the hatch's blast door.) And I believe the loop affects more people than just Desmond.

When Kate and Sawyer were first put into their cages, there's a scene where Kate looks around, starts climbing up the cage, and realizes she can get out. When the climbs back down, there's a close-up on the ground where her feet land. There is an indentation on the ground as if she's landed there many times before. (I checked it out several times thanks to Tivo.)


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

durl said:


> When Kate and Sawyer were first put into their cages, there's a scene where Kate looks around, starts climbing up the cage, and realizes she can get out. When the climbs back down, there's a close-up on the ground where her feet land. There is an indentation on the ground as if she's landed there many times before. (I checked it out several times thanks to Tivo.)


I chalk that up to either other people that were in the cage, or lazy set cleanup after multiple re-takes.

If she looped back in time, then the prints would disappear until she reached that moment for the 2nd time...the new ones may be in a slightly different place, but the old ones would not be there since it didn't happen yet in the current iteration of the time line.

Lets say she broke the lock to escape, then loops back in time, when she got back to the cage, the lock wouldn't be broken since that moment didn't happen yet. Same with the foot prints.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I liked the show, but I am also a bit disappointed. I thought the producers said once that there were no supernatural explanations for the stuff on the island, that all had real explanations. Clairvoyance and time travel definitely smack of supernatural to me.


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## laststarfighter (Feb 27, 2006)

eddyj said:


> I liked the show, but I am also a bit disappointed. I thought the producers said once that there were no supernatural explanations for the stuff on the island, that all had real explanations. Clairvoyance and time travel definitely smack of supernatural to me.


I knew yesterday that you were going to post that.


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

durl said:


> But I wonder if Desmond made the "map" drawing on the hatch's blast door.)


Desmond didn't make the map. The other guy in the Hatch with him did. We saw him doing it during a lockdown on a previous Desmond-centric episode (season finale maybe?)


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## mask2343 (Jan 6, 2003)

This news is really disturbing. CSI: NY!!! Come on people! You can't be serious!

"CBS took the lead at 10 p.m. with "CSI: NY," 9.4/15. With no lead-in to speak of, "Lost" managed only a 7.6/12, its lowest rating ever for a new episode. NBC's "Medium" came in at 5.7/9."


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

eddyj said:


> I liked the show, but I am also a bit disappointed. I thought the producers said once that there were no supernatural explanations for the stuff on the island, that all had real explanations. Clairvoyance and time travel definitely smack of supernatural to me.


I don't think that is exactly what they said. I believe they had been asked about some of the early theories, which had to do with everyone being dead and in purgatory or it all being a dream or hallucination. Essentially, their response was that this is all really happening, it's not a dream and they're not in purgatory. I don't think they've ever said that nothing "supernatural" was involved. (I can't find the exact quote I was thinking of, but didn't spend much time looking.)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Lee L said:


> I have not watched it a second time. Can someone remember whether the Jewelry shop lady actually said something about turing the key or did she say push the button? In Lost world, pushing the button means entering teh numbers at the keyboard. Is it possible that this is the first time he has used the Key and therefore things have sort of gone off the map?
> 
> I thought the whole flashback with Desmond was very interesting given the arguments in last weeks thread about whether the flashbacks could be construed as the real world gospel truth or not.
> 
> I loved the episode. I also thought the same thing as many of you. Lost is back, take that haters!


She said (as I recall) that he was going to have second thoughts, and leave. Then a few years from now (3 maybe? don't remember) he'd go on that solar race around the world, get stuck on that island, and start (something) into that computer. (can't remember if she said entering those numbers or typing that code or pushing that button - but I don't think it was pushing that button). Then eventually you'll turn that key for the failsafe.

(She definitely mentioned the key.. I found that part particularly interesting because who else in the world knows that? I suppose the losties know now and they could tell someone in the future..)


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

by the way, I'm now thinking back to Juliette's comment during their book club reading, where she said "and just when I thought there was some freewill on this isla....


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Argh. I padded that episode 5 minutes at the end, and it still wasn't enough. I got cut off when Charlie confronts Desmond and he says "I didn't save Claire, I saved YOU." Cut. I'm gathering from the other comments in this thread that that was why he put up the lightning rod, also? To save Charlie?


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> *THANK YOU!*
> 
> I was about to go nuts trying to place why that actress looked so familiar!


You're welcome.  Would have been cool to see Desmond rip her arm off..


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Argh. I padded that episode 5 minutes at the end, and it still wasn't enough. I got cut off when Charlie confronts Desmond and he says "I didn't save Claire, I saved YOU." Cut. I'm gathering from the other comments in this thread that that was why he put up the lightning rod, also? To save Charlie?


Yes...don't forget, free to view the episode at ABC.com.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

laststarfighter said:


> I knew yesterday that you were going to post that.


But I am not going to decide to post that until tomorrow.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Kind of unrelated, but too funny not to post:


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

hefe said:


> Yes...don't forget, free to view the episode at ABC.com.


Yeah, but that's not working very well right now. I'm trying to watch Daybreak, and it keeps hanging.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> by the way, I'm now thinking back to Juliette's comment during their book club reading, where she said "and just when I thought there was some freewill on this isla....


I had transcribed that in a previous thread.

For reference...



> Adam: "Now I know why Ben isn't here."
> 
> Juliet: "Excuse me?"
> 
> ...


Then they are interrupted by the plane crash.

When they all walk outside, Ben comes out of a different house. After barking out orders, he sees Juliet and says, "So I guess I'm out of the book club."


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> I was about to go nuts trying to place why that actress looked so familiar!


I read somewhere - ew.com, I think - that this actress was also in "_The Others_!" (The Nicole Kidman film from a few years ago.)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tivoboyjr said:


> I read somewhere - ew.com, I think - that this actress was also in "_The Others_!" (The Nicole Kidman film from a few years ago.)


I know I read that earlier in this thread.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I know I read that earlier in this thread.


Yeah just think if Desmond was a member of TCF. He'd be slammed for posting episode threads early, he'd be slammed for posting without spoiler-tags.

Greg


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> Argh. I padded that episode 5 minutes at the end, and it still wasn't enough. I got cut off when Charlie confronts Desmond and he says "I didn't save Claire, I saved YOU." Cut. I'm gathering from the other comments in this thread that that was why he put up the lightning rod, also? To save Charlie?


Yes. He tells Charlie that he has been trying to save him, first with the lightning rod and then by rescuing Claire (b/c otherwise Charlie was going to drown trying to save her himself). But then he says that despite his efforts, he sees another death for Charlie, the universe has a way of course-correcting itself, and he can't stop it from happenning. Last line of the ep is something like "There's no way around it, you are going to die."

ETA: GCI Cable? I've consistently needed more than 5 min. of padding on Lost. In fact I have it set to pad 15 min. b/c once 10 min. wasn't long enough either.


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

betts4 said:


> And a quick question, has anyone ever seen "La Jetee"? a great time travel movie. Desmond would appreciate it.


I love "La Jetee".

I really like movies that deal with time paradox issues so this is turning out to be right up my alley.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

One thing that was a bit unclear to me though...did Claire die??? If Charlie jumped in to save Claire and he died trying to save her, does that mean that no one saved Claire then? So wouldn't that then mean that now Claire is destined to die??? Because if Charlie was unable to save Claire and he died trying to save her and so to prevent that Desmond jumps in the water to prevent Charlie from doing it and he ends up saving Claire...I just gave myself a headache.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Ruth said:


> Yes. He tells Charlie that he has been trying to save him, first with the lightning rod and then by rescuing Claire (b/c otherwise Charlie was going to drown trying to save her himself). But then he says that despite his efforts, he sees another death for Charlie, the universe has a way of course-correcting itself, and he can't stop it from happenning. Last line of the ep is something like "There's no way around it, you are going to die."
> 
> ETA: GCI Cable? I've consistently needed more than 5 min. of padding on Lost. In fact I have it set to pad 15 min. b/c once 10 min. wasn't long enough either.


That's not quite right, IMO. I don't think there was a specific next death in mind. He said universe correction final destination stuff, and then something to the effect that he won't be able to stop all of them, and sooner or later death will win.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Lee L said:


> I love "La Jetee".
> 
> I really like movies that deal with time paradox issues so this is turning out to be right up my alley.


Sure, but that was only barely a movie. it was what 25 minutes long, and consisted of a series of still frames with fade transitions and a voiceover. The concept was very interesting, but the execution... I liked the Twelve Monkeys treatment much better.


lordargent said:


> ...I'm getting a "dead like me" vibe. I was almost expecting to see gravelings fleeing from where the guy in the red shoes bought it.


Actually, as was said some time ago in this thread, I was thinking The Wizard of Oz. I expected to see the red sneakers curl up and disappear under the debris. And the Data's mother almost seemed a bit like Glinda, the good witch of the north.

So an alcoholic beverage (sorry, can't remember the name) is mans greatest achievement, and Desmond isn't even worthy of a single shot of liquor, much less the man's daughter. Wouldn't this most likely drive them together rather than apart? So, what was her dad really trying to do? Maybe he is still unhappy about dieing on The OC, or not becoming president on 24.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Just an observation that probably isn't that important, but it struck me as I watched the episode:

Could Mr. Whitmore (Penny's dad, and apparently the CEO of the company that makes those pregnancy tests, and many other products seen on "Lost") be any more a snobbish, obnoxious, sarcastic, elitist *******!?

His daughter's *happiness* isn't important, it's only important that she marry someone filthy rich like he is.

What a tool!

I hope something really bad happens to him in a future episode!


----------



## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> Just an observation that probably isn't that important, but it struck me as I watched the episode:
> 
> Could Mr. Whitmore (Penny's dad, and apparently the CEO of the company that makes those pregnancy tests, and many other products seen on "Lost") be any more a snobbish, obnoxious, sarcastic, elitist *******!?
> 
> ...


Yeah, I was shocked when he stood there with the bottle of Whiskey and told Desmond that he wasn't even worthy of having a drink of it.

My guess is that he and his company are somehow involved in this whole Dharma experiment. If so, then he will get what's coming to him in the end. Maybe he'll end up on the island to face the smoke monster....


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Could Mr. Whitmore (Penny's dad, and apparently the CEO of the company that makes those pregnancy tests, and many other products seen on "Lost") be any more a snobbish, obnoxious, sarcastic, elitist *******!?
> 
> His daughter's *happiness* isn't important, it's only important that she marry someone filthy rich like he is.
> 
> ...


This is the first time he met ol' Des. So Des has been seeing his daughter for two years, wants to marry her, loves her, whatever, YET has never met dear old dad? Dad just has a tough time expressing himself.

Maybe he's a Bauer.

Greg


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

unixadm said:


> My guess is that he and his company are somehow involved in this whole Dharma experiment. If so, then he will get what's coming to him in the end. Maybe he'll end up on the island to face the smoke monster....


Oh man, I just had a thought. Maybe now that it's been three years, he



Spoiler



wears an eyepatch and stares into video cameras



Greg


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Church AV Guy said:


> So an alcoholic beverage (sorry, can't remember the name) is mans greatest achievement, and Desmond isn't even worthy of a single shot of liquor, much less the man's daughter. Wouldn't this most likely drive them together rather than apart?


Normally, such shallow parental meddling in a relationship would draw a couple closer together, but there's a huge other factor here:

The "clock/ring" lady (Data's mom) got Desmond scared of changing things and marrying Penny. She convinced him that his destiny was to end up on that island and push that button.

That's why he broke it off with her. It had nothing to do with her dad (although he seemed to be trying to use that as his lame excuse).

However, notice that right at the end of his flashback, he decided, "I can change things!", because he was about to save that bartender from being cracked on the head with a cricket bat.

In that instant, *it was clear that he decided to go get penny back* and "change his destiny". But, the cricket bat whacked him on the head (instead of the bartender) and he came to on the island. He never had the chance to fix things up with Penny, as he intended.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Well said. Agreed.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

unicorngoddess said:


> One thing that was a bit unclear to me though...did Claire die??? If Charlie jumped in to save Claire and he died trying to save her, does that mean that no one saved Claire then? So wouldn't that then mean that now Claire is destined to die??? Because if Charlie was unable to save Claire and he died trying to save her and so to prevent that Desmond jumps in the water to prevent Charlie from doing it and he ends up saving Claire...I just gave myself a headache.


I thought about that too. If Charlie died, then Claire certainly did too, as he was the one trying to save her.

Unless... someone else went in and was able to get to Claire but not Charlie.


----------



## Rob64 (Aug 27, 2005)

7thton said:


> I think the figure on Mr. Widmore's painting was a Buddha.


Yes the statue is of the Buddha. The statue was also in last weeks show in the brainwashing scene


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

hefe said:


> I thought about that too. If Charlie died, then Claire certainly did too, as he was the one trying to save her.
> 
> Unless... someone else went in and was able to get to Claire but not Charlie.


My feeling was that Charlie went in to save her, he drowned but they were able to save Claire. Otherwise, Desmond would have said that both of them would have died.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Normally, such shallow parental meddling in a relationship would draw a couple closer together, but there's a huge other factor here:
> 
> The "clock/ring" lady (Data's mom) got Desmond scared of changing things and marrying Penny. She convinced him that his destiny was to end up on that island and push that button.
> 
> ...


I disagree with most of the above, unless I'm not understanding it. We had already seen desmond give her up because he felt like he wasn't good enough. His repeating of the "mistake" in this episode was just to go along with the old lady, but it was genuine in his previous flashback story.

I don't agree that he wanted to change his destiny, if by that you mean not go on the island.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

A couple things occurred to me after the episode. Charlie dying is kind of like the movie Final Destination. Once you are destined to die, and cheat death, it keeps coming for you.

As for Desmond's premonitions, I'm reminded of Dune, where Paul likens his ability to see the future to being on a stormy sea in a small boat. At the top of a wave, you can see pretty far, but in the trough of a wave, you can't see too much. Desmond gets glimpses, but can't correctly interpret them until the event gets closer and he gets some context. Also, his seeing the future seems to be like Vuja De (where you know none of this has happened before.) The Dr. Manhatten analogy is spot on as well.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> solar race around the world


Seriously?


----------



## Rob64 (Aug 27, 2005)

I stated this in last weeks episode thread but there are alot of references to Buddhism in this show. They have showed a statue of the Buddha in each of the last two weeks. In last weeks brain wash scene the words "everything changes" refering to Buddhist teachings on Impermanance meaning nothing stays the same and is not permanant. The word Dharma is a Buddhist word meaning "truth" refering to the teachings of the Buddha. The time clock in the bunker needs reset every 108 minutes and is similar to a 108 bead Mala used in Buddhism to count repetitons maintaining awareness. Either one of the shows writers is a Buddhist or they are just using Buddhist references in this show.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Philosofy said:


> A couple things occurred to me after the episode. Charlie dying is kind of like the movie Final Destination. Once you are destined to die, and cheat death, it keeps coming for you.
> 
> As for Desmond's premonitions, I'm reminded of Dune, where Paul likens his ability to see the future to being on a stormy sea in a small boat. At the top of a wave, you can see pretty far, but in the trough of a wave, you can't see too much. Desmond gets glimpses, but can't correctly interpret them until the event gets closer and he gets some context. Also, his seeing the future seems to be like Vuja De (where you know none of this has happened before.) The Dr. Manhatten analogy is spot on as well.


I don't remember that analogy from Dune at all. What I remember is that Paul saw all possible futures, but there were pockets of darkness where he couldn't see into them. I guess we may be talking about the same thing, but the Kwisatz Haderache prophetic powers were a lot more advanced than desmond's. It was a matter of whether they were in a timeline that was dark to him, but if not, he could pretty much see everything.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

About the lady in the ring shop: I don't recall any name being assigned to her in the episode, but the cast list at imdb.org identifies her character as "Ms. Hawking". An interesting tie to the book reference from last episode.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

unixadm said:


> My feeling was that Charlie went in to save her, he drowned but they were able to save Claire. Otherwise, Desmond would have said that both of them would have died.


It reminds me of when that one girl drowned in season one. Boone tried to go after her and Jack swam out to save boone. But the girl that drown had gone too far out to be able to save. You would think this would be the same situation.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Desmond: Charlie, you're going to die.

Me: Yippee!


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

I have a question about the whiskey. Was it really as expensive as the father said it was because if it were I don't think it would have been in the pub that Desmond went to .

So was the father just being a prick and saying he couldn't make $50 in a month?


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## joeinma (Jan 11, 2002)

I've been going crazy all day as to whether I really saw this on Lost last night and have tried to find a screen cap to no avail. 

When Desmond and Penny had their photo taken, Desmond turns around to look at the picture. I had to rewind and pause to get a good look even on a 46 inch screen...but in the picture, Desmond's face was all distorted like it was melting off the page and his body width was distorted also. Meanwhile, only half of Penny's face was showing, the half that was touching Desmond was like it was cut off. Did anyone else see this?

It was right then that Desmond turned to Penny and told her that he could not go on in the relationship anymore. My take was the distorted picture was because Desmond was not following the right path...he was not supposed buy the ring, he needed to go back and sail in the race. After breaking up and throwing the ring in the river, when he looked at the photo again, it was back to normal.

If anyone can find a screen cap of this, please let me know!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Ruth said:


> ETA: GCI Cable? I've consistently needed more than 5 min. of padding on Lost. In fact I have it set to pad 15 min. b/c once 10 min. wasn't long enough either.


How is it possible that the show went that long? Is your local news starting that late? What is the cable company doing to get it to go so long? Starting the episode late? Inserting more commercials? I thought network afflilates were supposed to stay pretty close to the network clock. Mine wasn't padded at all and I didn't miss anything. I even got the whole preview.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

joeinma said:


> When Desmond and Penny had their photo taken, Desmond turns around to look at the picture. I had to rewind and pause to get a good look even on a 46 inch screen...but in the picture, Desmond's face was all distorted like it was melting off the page and his body width was distorted also. Meanwhile, only half of Penny's face was showing, the half that was touching Desmond was like it was cut off. Did anyone else see this?


Sorry...I think maybe you were watching The Ring.

But seriously, yes, it was there:










To me it kind of looks like a perspective distortion. If you look at the edge of the picture, you can see there is a curve in the paper there (it appears to be bending around the finger he has behind it). I think it might be more illusion than anything.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> To me it kind of looks like a perspective distortion. If you look at the edge of the picture, you can see there is a curve in the paper there (it appears to be bending around the finger he has behind it). I think it might be more illusion than anything.


I believe the picture was also folded, so there was a crease down the middle aggravating the illusion


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

devdogaz said:


> How is it possible that the show went that long? Is your local news starting that late? What is the cable company doing to get it to go so long? Starting the episode late? Inserting more commercials? I thought network afflilates were supposed to stay pretty close to the network clock. Mine wasn't padded at all and I didn't miss anything. I even got the whole preview.


You got me. All the shows on that channel seem to run late on Wednesdays. Usually 5 minutes or so late, but sometimes more. I've got several other primetime shows that also consistently run pretty late -- Heroes and Studio 60, for example. (Is that the same network as Lost? Since I got TiVo I don't even know that.) I don't really know why. I'm just happy to have three tuners at my disposal so I can pad away and not miss anything.


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## tai-pan (Feb 9, 2006)

Has Desmond seen his shadow yet? Isn't this Goundhog Day?


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> I don't agree that he wanted to change his destiny, if by that you mean not go on the island.


In the very last scene of his flashback, when Desmond realized that _this_ was the night he remembered in which the soccer team made a miraculous comeback and the bartender got conked with a cricket bat, he exclaimed, *"I can change what happens!"* He shouted to the bartender, "duck!" He then spun around and said something about needing to go find Penny. An instant later, he gets clobbered with the bat, and wakes up on the island.

So, they *telegraphed to us* that he had decided that he wouldn't make the same mistake twice. *This time* he'd not go on the solo race around the world. He'd stay with Penny instead. Alas, he gets clobbered with the bat, and is back on the island.

Either it was all a dream, or he popped back forward in time with the knock on the head.

In either case, he'd made the decision to stay with Penny, but he couldn't. It was indeed his destiny to be on the island.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

who is data?


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

goblue97 said:


> who is data?


 And here I thought we were all nerds here! 

Data is an android character from Star Trek: The Next Generation. The jewlery saleslady played his mother in an episode once.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Ruth said:


> You got me. All the shows on that channel seem to run late on Wednesdays. Usually 5 minutes or so late, but sometimes more. I've got several other primetime shows that also consistently run pretty late -- Heroes and Studio 60, for example. (Is that the same network as Lost? Since I got TiVo I don't even know that.) I don't really know why. I'm just happy to have three tuners at my disposal so I can pad away and not miss anything.


Maybe they don't have clocks in Alaska?

"Hey, Bob, does the sun look like 8:00 yet?"

"How should I know, Bill? It's winter! The sun set three hours ago!"

"Oh, well, let's just guess. It kinda feels like 8:00..."


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Wow. Just, wow. I want each Lost episode to be about three hours.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I believe the picture was also folded, so there was a crease down the middle aggravating the illusion


The picture was brand new...just taken. There was no fold yet.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Ruth said:


> And here I thought we were all nerds here!
> 
> Data is an android character from Star Trek: The Next Generation. The jewlery saleslady played his mother in an episode once.


She also played one of Curzon Dax's wives on DS9. I rather liked that episode.

Greg


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> In the very last scene of his flashback, when Desmond realized that _this_ was the night he remembered in which the soccer team made a miraculous comeback and the bartender got conked with a cricket bat, he exclaimed, *"I can change what happens!"* He shouted to the bartender, "duck!" He then spun around and said something about needing to go find Penny. An instant later, he gets clobbered with the bat, and wakes up on the island.
> 
> So, they *telegraphed to us* that he had decided that he wouldn't make the same mistake twice. *This time* he'd not go on the solo race around the world. He'd stay with Penny instead. Alas, he gets clobbered with the bat, and is back on the island.
> 
> ...


This reminds me. Is this episode of Desmond's life prior to his stint in jail? I don't remember if we learned in a previous episode why he was in jail (going AWOL from the military perhaps?) but something the ring lady said made me think that this was even prior to the prison stint, so there are still several years between the picture being taken and his leaving for the "solar" race around the world.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I dunno - I must have been watching a different show, I couldn't fast forward through this episode fast enough. 
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
No wonder ratings are down.


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## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

devdogaz said:


> This reminds me. Is this episode of Desmond's life prior to his stint in jail? I don't remember if we learned in a previous episode why he was in jail (going AWOL from the military perhaps?) but something the ring lady said made me think that this was even prior to the prison stint, so there are still several years between the picture being taken and his leaving for the "solar" race around the world.


This _must've_ been before his imprisonment, because he was asked by Mr. Widmore if he had served in the military and he said he hadn't.


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## jonblaze (Jan 10, 2004)

MFruchey said:


> This _must've_ been before his imprisonment, because he was asked by Mr. Widmore if he had served in the military and he said he hadn't.


Add to that the fact the he hesitates after passing the recruiting center as if he were then, at that moment, considering joining the military. By the way, did anyone else notice that the Royal Scots poster spelled "honor" the American rather than British way?


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## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> That's not quite right, IMO. I don't think there was a specific next death in mind. He said universe correction final destination stuff, and then something to the effect that he won't be able to stop all of them, and sooner or later death will win.


Yes, that is a fair correction/clarification. "Sees" was a very imprecise verb for me to use in the context of this episode.


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## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

jonblaze said:


> Add to that the fact the he hesitates after passing the recruiting center as if he were then, at that moment, considering joining the military. By the way, did anyone else notice that the Royal Scots poster spelled "honor" the American rather than British way?


Maybe it's their own quiet rebellion. (I hear Mel Gibson screaming "Freeeedoooooom!"")


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

Rob64 said:


> I stated this in last weeks episode thread but there are alot of references to Buddhism in this show. They have showed a statue of the Buddha in each of the last two weeks. In last weeks brain wash scene the words "everything changes" refering to Buddhist teachings on Impermanance meaning nothing stays the same and is not permanant. The word Dharma is a Buddhist word meaning "truth" refering to the teachings of the Buddha. The time clock in the bunker needs reset every 108 minutes and is similar to a 108 bead Mala used in Buddhism to count repetitons maintaining awareness. Either one of the shows writers is a Buddhist or they are just using Buddhist references in this show.


One of the other video frames from the brainwashing scene has the phrase:
"Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit". 
It's from Buddhist text _Dhammapada_.

Seems like a reference probably related to the possible fertility issues of the Others, as opposed to all the other *time/space/truth* messages. In any case, it's part of the whole scope of literary/spiritual themes that are Lost.
.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> solar race around the world





cherry ghost said:


> Seriously?


DOH! Oh man, yeah, believe it or not, I was serious.. I've always thought it was a strange thing to have a "solar" race that somehow involved a sailboat.. like it was some new-age energy thing or something. When he said it again I was like "wow, again with the solar thing.. wtf?".. Until you said that, I didn't even think I could have been hearing it wrong.

Doh. Solo. Makes muuuuuuuuuuuuch more sense now.  Thank you!

..Jeff (occasional idiot)


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## Philly Bill (Oct 6, 2004)

RBlount said:


> I may be smeeking, but one my coworkers pointed out the Wizard of Oz homage with the red shoes. That one flew right over my head.


Yeah, the red sneakers sticking out from under the rubble were like the ruby slippers sticking out from under the house.


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## jstack (Mar 26, 2005)

lordargent said:


> I'm getting a "dead like me" vibe. I was almost expecting to see gravelings fleeing from where the guy in the red shoes bought it.


I did as well. In fact, I even said "This reminds of Dead Like Me" out loud while watching.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

unixadm said:


> My feeling was that Charlie went in to save her, he drowned but they were able to save Claire. Otherwise, Desmond would have said that both of them would have died.


When Desmond had his "flash" of Claire drowning, he was "about a mile" away from her. He sprinted to the beach and swam straight out to her. Yet, by the time he reached her, she was face down and unconscious in the water. When he got her to the beach he had to use CPR to revive her.

In the alternate timeline where Charlie dies trying to save Claire, he would have come to her much later. I don't see how see could possibly survive that timeline.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

avery said:


> "Plant a *good* seed and you will joyfully gather fruit".


Hmm, so if Locke is _one of the good ones_ (according to Ben), he's got a sweeps episode to look forward to?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fool Me Twice said:


> When Desmond had his "flash" of Claire drowning, he was "about a mile" away from her. He sprinted to the beach and swam straight out to her. Yet, by the time he reached her, she was face down and unconscious in the water. When he got her to the beach he had to use CPR to revive her.
> 
> In the alternate timeline where Charlie dies trying to save Claire, he would have come to her much later. I don't see how see could possibly survive that timeline.


It's a TV show; e have no idea how far he had to run; we have no idea how long Claire had been face down -- perhaps she was not completely out yet, or a wave could have flipped her over enough, or ...

We also have no idea where Charlie would have been had Desmond not been with him.

It did have a much different feel to it than the lightning episode, though. That one was clearly prevention of a future event; this time you could *almost* believe Desmon'd original explanation that he heard Claire. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I agree with you that something smells fishy here. It could be sloppy writing (or even editing), or it could be something else entirely.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Had they shown us the crater from the hatch implosion before? I didn't remember ever seeing it. 

thought the scene with Widmore and Desmond was well played. He pulled out the two glasses and everything. It makes it hurt that much more. Someone earlier pointed out about the whiskey...I doubt a local pub would have a whiskey that was so expensive...


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

danplaysbass said:


> Had they shown us the crater from the hatch implosion before? I didn't remember ever seeing it.
> 
> thought the scene with Widmore and Desmond was well played. He pulled out the two glasses and everything. It makes it hurt that much more. Someone earlier pointed out about the whiskey...I doubt a local pub would have a whiskey that was so expensive...


Also, where did Sawyer get it? Something that expensive wouldn't be on a plane. They only keep the two shot bottles on a plane anyway, so someone would have had to take it in their luggage? Of course, since it is Lost, maybe things appear on the island that have meaning to the losties.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I'd already considered of all these questions. These are the answers I came up with.



wprager said:


> It's a TV show;


Granted. 



wprager said:


> e have no idea how far he had to run;


They said it on the show: "About a mile."



wprager said:


> we have no idea how long Claire had been face down -- perhaps she was not completely out yet, or a wave could have flipped her over enough, or ...


She wasn't breathing (mouth to mouth.). Her heart had stopped (chest compressions).



wprager said:


> We also have no idea where Charlie would have been had Desmond not been with him.


Presumably, the timelines were identical up until Desmond had his "flash". Locke sent Desmond to get Charlie and Hurley. They would all have been in the same spot in the jungle in the previous timeline--Desmond, Charlie, Hurley, Locke, and Sayid.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

danplaysbass said:


> Had they shown us the crater from the hatch implosion before? I didn't remember ever seeing it.


I remember seeing it before because I had the same reaction: "Wow, that's bad CGI."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danplaysbass said:


> Had they shown us the crater from the hatch implosion before? I didn't remember ever seeing it.


I think I've seen it before...


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Episode plusses: 
Not having the Others. :up: 
Charlie is going to die. :up: :up: :up: Just not enough thumbs for that one.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

We've seen it before.

Episode 3 of this season, "Further Instructions"


----------



## durl (Dec 1, 2005)

Can we be absolutely sure that Alex's boyfriend was actually being brainwashed? Perhaps he has special abilities like Walt and they were keeping him mentally zapped to keep him in check. Possibly??? OK...wild theory, I know.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Philly Bill said:


> Yeah, the red sneakers sticking out from under the rubble were like the ruby slippers sticking out from under the house.


Well.....I guess you could also say the red sneakers reminded me of a red shirt on Star Trek.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

MFruchey said:


> This _must've_ been before his imprisonment, because he was asked by Mr. Widmore if he had served in the military and he said he hadn't.


Or, he could have been lying to Mr. Widmore, since his stint in the military ended dishonorably. He wouldn't exactly be proud of it.


----------



## Chibbie (Jan 16, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> Or, he could have been lying to Mr. Widmore, since his stint in the military ended dishonorably. He wouldn't exactly be proud of it.


Mr. Widmore was disappointed that he didn't have any military service, so he thought that joining might earn him some respect. Obviously that didn't go so well...

It looks like he got the idea to join the Military after seeing this poster in this episode (which was right before he broke up with Penny):


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Chibbie said:


> Mr. Widmore was disappointed that he didn't have any military service, so he thought that joining might earn him some respect. Obviously that didn't go so well...
> 
> It looks like he got the idea to join the Military after seeing this poster in this episode (which was right before he broke up with Penny):


Hmm....

Good point.

That would have made entering the solo race around the world his "plan B".


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

unixadm said:


> Also, where did Sawyer get it? Something that expensive wouldn't be on a plane. They only keep the two shot bottles on a plane anyway, so someone would have had to take it in their luggage? Of course, since it is Lost, maybe things appear on the island that have meaning to the losties.


I thought the bottle was in with the food-drop supplies, which would make some sort of sense if it was Widmore's favorite brand, and Widmore is related to Dharma.


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## DVDerek (Sep 30, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> They said it on the show: "About a mile."


"They" didn't say it. Charlie said it while on the beech trying to lay out just how improbable it was for Desmond to hear Claire, run from the woods, across the beech, dive into the water and save her. Under those circumstances, don't you think it possible that he was exaggerating for effect?


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

gchance said:


> Yeah just think if Desmond was a member of TCF. He'd be slammed for posting episode threads early, he'd be slammed for posting without spoiler-tags.


Funny, I was thinking about a tivo analogy for Desmond earlier, too. It's like Desmond's reality is now tivo-ized. The show ("reality") is already recorded, but now (after turning the key) he has begun fast-forwarding and rewinding through it. The question is: is it padded? And, if so, what's in the 5 minutes following?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

DVDerek said:


> "They" didn't say it. Charlie said it...


Hah. I couldn't remember who exactly said it, Charlie or Hurley, so I used "they". I just checked. It was Hurley. 

Edit: Ugh. Rather than revise the paragraphs I originally posted into something coherent, I'll just delete them and go to bed...


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## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

jenhudson said:


> I thought the bottle was in with the food-drop supplies, which would make some sort of sense if it was Widmore's favorite brand, and Widmore is related to Dharma.


My wife and noticed this during the show too. Our guess was that it was actually on Desmond's sailboat, which belonged to Widmore (I think), and Sawyer snatched it when drunken Desmond and his boat drifted back to the island. It was the only thing in that stash they were digging around in without the Dharma logo, so it wasn't from the drop.


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> I have a question about the whiskey. Was it really as expensive as the father said it was because if it were I don't think it would have been in the pub that Desmond went to .
> 
> So was the father just being a prick and saying he couldn't make $50 in a month?


I caught that as well.

I missed the part of how they came to find the bottle on the island, can anyone fill me in on that?


----------



## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

Mikeyis4dcats said:


> I caught that as well.
> 
> I missed the part of how they came to find the bottle on the island, can anyone fill me in on that?


Sawyer's stash I think.

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/02/sawyers-stash.html


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DVDerek said:


> "They" didn't say it. Charlie said it while on the beech trying to lay out just how improbable it was for Desmond to hear Claire, run from the woods, across the beech, dive into the water and save her. Under those circumstances, don't you think it possible that he was exaggerating for effect?


Either way, it doesn't really matter how far away they were. There was no indication that Desmond heard Claire, so we have to assume it was just a flash forward thing. So if Desmond didn't hear her, none of the others would have been able to hear her either....making it even more likely that Charlie couldn't have saved Claire in time. Even if they would have headed right back towards the beach right after Locke told them that everyone would be looking to them for how to react, bla bla, they wouldn't have been running. So it would have taken them a lot longer to get back to the beach. And no one that was actually on the beach even knew Claire was out there, and they certianly didn't hear her.

I just don't see how Claire could have been saved in Desmond's flash. The way I would see it happening is they realize Claire was gone and saw someone floating out in the water, Charlie realizes its Claire and swims out to try to save her but he was already too late, then he gets caught in the same rip tide or something and drowns as well.


----------



## Draken (Feb 5, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Normally, such shallow parental meddling in a relationship would draw a couple closer together, but there's a huge other factor here:
> 
> The "clock/ring" lady (Data's mom) got Desmond scared of changing things and marrying Penny. She convinced him that his destiny was to end up on that island and push that button.
> 
> ...


I saw it differently. Desmond was breaking up with Penny to get away from his fate, the island. By dumping her now, he gets away from her, her father, and her father's boat race. So this is how he planned on avoiding getting to the island in the first place. But the bat to the head showed him he couldn't escape the island.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Markman07 said:


> So has it ever been answered why Desmond, while in the hatch, was injecting himself with whatever drug?


Probably trying to get pregnant to stick his kid with button pushing.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> Normally, such shallow parental meddling in a relationship would draw a couple closer together, but there's a huge other factor here:
> 
> The "clock/ring" lady (Data's mom) got Desmond scared of changing things and marrying Penny. She convinced him that his destiny was to end up on that island and push that button.
> 
> ...


 

oh. you said "clock/ring". never mind


----------



## MFruchey (May 25, 2006)

Fish Man said:


> Or, he could have been lying to Mr. Widmore, since his stint in the military ended dishonorably. He wouldn't exactly be proud of it.


Could have, but that would be easy to disprove. And Mr. Widmore certainly has the resources to run a fair share of background checks. I don't think Desmond would lie to the highly-influential man who might someday be his father-in-law, but then, I've been wrong before...


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

DUDE_NJX said:


> oh. you said "clock/ring". never mind


I had the same problem you had. I had to slow down and read that twice.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

jubrand said:


> My wife and noticed this during the show too. Our guess was that it was actually on Desmond's sailboat, which belonged to Widmore (I think), and Sawyer snatched it when drunken Desmond and his boat drifted back to the island. It was the only thing in that stash they were digging around in without the Dharma logo, so it wasn't from the drop.


But Desmond seemed absolutely shocked when Charlie offered the bottle, as if he appreciated the cosmic irony of this particular type of alcohol winding up on the island. If he had it all along as a provision on the sailboat, he probably wouldn't have been so surprised to see it turn up on the island. I don't have a better guess, though, so I prefer your theory to the DHARMA-drop one. The whole thing reminds me of Locke's "the island will provide - look, Charlie, there's your guitar" speech, though. Maybe the bottle was on the island because the island put it there (basically as unixadm proposed).


----------



## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

danterner said:


> But Desmond seemed absolutely shocked when Charlie offered the bottle, as if he appreciated the cosmic irony of this particular type of alcohol winding up on the island. If he had it all along as a provision on the sailboat, he probably wouldn't have been so surprised to see it turn up on the island. I don't have a better guess, though, so I prefer your theory to the DHARMA-drop one. The whole thing reminds me of Locke's "the island will provide - look, Charlie, there's your guitar" speech, though. Maybe the bottle was on the island because the island put it there (basically as unixadm proposed).


Yea, you're right. But maybe it was in a hidden compartment or something in the boat. Sawyer would have probably looked in places Desmond wouldn't have.


----------



## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Ah, I wasn't paying too close of attention - in the Sawyer's Stash photo, I remember seeing a bottle with no logo:










I though that was the bottle Charlie brought. But that bottle wasn't green.


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## robinreale (Jan 24, 2006)

jubrand said:


> My wife and noticed this during the show too. Our guess was that it was actually on Desmond's sailboat, which belonged to Widmore (I think), and Sawyer snatched it when drunken Desmond and his boat drifted back to the island. It was the only thing in that stash they were digging around in without the Dharma logo, so it wasn't from the drop.


The sailboat actually belonged to Libby's supposedly deceased husband, Dave, not Widmore. Unless he was actually a Widmore (which would not surprise me at all).


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Wow, that site is great - check this out, just posted:



> Photo in Widmore's office is Claire's boyfriend Toms
> 
> Thanks to ballcapguytx who sent this great connection over to us.
> 
> ...


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

unixadm said:


> Also, where did Sawyer get it? Something that expensive wouldn't be on a plane. They only keep the two shot bottles on a plane anyway, so someone would have had to take it in their luggage? Of course, since it is Lost, maybe things appear on the island that have meaning to the losties.


IMHO y'all are overthinking this (the "island" provided it, it was hidden on the boat, etc). Maybe it was simply in someone's luggage. Sawyer made a living going thru the luggage, and stashing/selling what he found.

OTOH, overthinking is what we do


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

brianp6621 said:


> I have a question about the whiskey. Was it really as expensive as the father said it was because if it were I don't think it would have been in the pub that Desmond went to .
> 
> So was the father just being a prick and saying he couldn't make $50 in a month?


Well, it may have been extremely expensive, but I think he had to have been exaggerating as an insult to Desmond. I forget exactly what he said - if it was how much you'll make in a year, your lifetime, or whatever. If it was a 750 ml bottle, that would be about 25.5 oz, so about 17 1.5 oz. pours. Even if he insultingly meant to say that Desmond would never make more than $25,000 in a year, that would be a $425,000 bottle of whiskey. If he said lifetime, then forget about it. Such things may exist, but they wouldn't be in a neighborhood pub.

Still, go to the liquor store and check out the price difference between 12-, 15- and 18-year scotch of the same brand (more than a linear increase), then extrapolate that out to a 60-year scotch, and consider that (I'm surmising from the story Penny's dad was telling) it's probably less than micro-produced. $10,000+ wouldn't be unrealistic, particularly if it was no longer in production, and perhaps the bottles in the pub and Sawyer's stash weren't the 60-year variety.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> I had the same problem you had. I had to slow down and read that twice.


Good grief! 

What filthy minds you people have!


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## jubrand (May 11, 2002)

jenhudson said:


> Ah, I wasn't paying too close of attention - in the Sawyer's Stash photo, I remember seeing a bottle with no logo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm almost positive that Charlie grabbed that green bottle.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

On using the same guy from Heroes:


stiffi said:


> I did notice this. I chalked it up to casting laziness.


Yes, it's REALLY lazy to use actors that have even been in other shows. I can imagine your version of the casting process now.

STIFFI: So what experience do you have?

ACTOR: I have over 50 entries on IMDB. (Smiles proudly)

STIFFI: Get out!

I hate this Final Destination crap. I think the Time Machine would've been a decent movie if they hadn't pulled this same "Save them and they keep dying in different ways" bullcrap.

The events that happened in the past were obviously in his head, to me. If he had changed the past, Charlie would've recognized him (maybe.) Of all the stuff that can happen on the island, I don't buy time travel for a second.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Markman07 said:


> So has it ever been answered why Desmond, while in the hatch, was injecting himself with whatever drug?


I always assumed that it was "the vaccine" but now I can't remember enough to figure out if that makes sense.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

astrohip said:


> IMHO y'all are overthinking this (the "island" provided it, it was hidden on the boat, etc). Maybe it was simply in someone's luggage. Sawyer made a living going thru the luggage, and stashing/selling what he found.
> 
> OTOH, overthinking is what we do


I've come to simply accept improbable things turning up on the island.

The main thought I had about the bottle of whisky on the island, after I'd seen the whole show and knew its significance, was this:

Desmond looked to be in absolute joyful heaven when he opened that bottle, tilted it back and took the first long, deep chug.

I figure he must have been thinking, "I won't ever make enough in a year to afford a single small swallow, eh, Widmore? Look what I'm doing now you arrogant, snobbish bastard!"

Must have felt sweet! (Bittersweet, since he's stuck on the island, but still sweet.)


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Ha, I found the photo I wanted--Charlie pulling the bottle out of the stash. That said, we still don't know exactly where it came from.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Well, it may have been extremely expensive, but I think he had to have been exaggerating as an insult to Desmond. I forget exactly what he said - if it was how much you'll make in a year, your lifetime, or whatever. If it was a 750 ml bottle, that would be about 25.5 oz, so about 17 1.5 oz. pours. Even if he insultingly meant to say that Desmond would never make more than $25,000 in a year, that would be a $425,000 bottle of whiskey. If he said lifetime, then forget about it. Such things may exist, but they wouldn't be in a neighborhood pub.


I thought he said in a month. Which at minimum wage, is not all that much money.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

"This swallow is more than you could make in a month." @ 17:35


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

eddyj said:


> I thought he said in a month. Which at minimum wage, is not all that much money.


Ok, and true, but that would still be at least $10,000 per bottle, probably $1,000+ a shot with a bar's markup. Seems unlikely it would be in a pub without being locked in a cabinet, but I don't think it constitutes a major plot hole if we assume that Penny's dad's statement wasn't an exaggeration.


----------



## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

NoThru22 said:


> On using the same guy from Heroes:
> 
> Yes, it's REALLY lazy to use actors that have even been in other shows. I can imagine your version of the casting process now.
> 
> ...


Somebody else pointed out that there have been some writers working on both shows. My point was that one of said writers probably just suggested using the actor from Heroes, without thinking it would be weird for him to show up in 2 shows in the same season.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Presumably, the timelines were identical up until Desmond had his "flash". Locke sent Desmond to get Charlie and Hurley. They would all have been in the same spot in the jungle in the previous timeline--Desmond, Charlie, Hurley, Locke, and Sayid.


Ehhh, while I'm in fact leaning in that direction, that's by no means certain.. It could be that Desmond told Charlie "come with me, I need you" BECAUSE he wanted to save him (maybe he just saw a flash of Charlie's dead body on the beach).. Then when he brought him out to talk to Locke, he flashed that Claire was out there drowning - and went to save her.

Again - I don't actually believe that. Locke seemed to already want to talk to Charlie and Hurley as two people that were influential, to break the news of Eko's death to everyone.. so it seems more likely that you're right - they always met Locke and Sayid in the jungle.. But it's still possible that that's not the case (Desmond, trying to save Charlie, suggests Charlie's name to Locke, to give him an excuse to take him out there, etc).

The strange part is that Desmond said he wasn't going out there to save Claire - he was going to save Charlie.. Well, if he'd had the flash while Locke was talking, then chose to sit there and do nothing, listening to Locke's talk instead, what exactly would have happened? Somehow, according to his claim that he was saving _Charlie_, Charlie would have to run/walk the mile to the beach and then swim out there.. The question stands - how would _Charlie_ know to go out there? Or are they saying that Claire would have died in the ocean and floated out there for hours, and when Charlie finally wandered back to camp he'd look out and see her, and drown trying to rescue her corpse? If that's the case, why didn't Desmond get a flash about Claire? ("it doesn't work like that").


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> Or, he could have been lying to Mr. Widmore, since his stint in the military ended dishonorably. He wouldn't exactly be proud of it.


Nope.. When Desmond got out of military prison and was discharged, Widmore was there to meet him.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

DUDE_NJX said:


> oh. you said "clock/ring". never mind


Ok, second tangential Mr. Show link I've posted to this thread:





(the audio part is probably nsfw)


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## tivoboyjr (Apr 28, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> The strange part is that Desmond said he wasn't going out there to save Claire - he was going to save Charlie.. Well, if he'd had the flash while Locke was talking, then chose to sit there and do nothing, listening to Locke's talk instead, what exactly would have happened? Somehow, according to his claim that he was saving _Charlie_, Charlie would have to run/walk the mile to the beach and then swim out there.. The question stands - how would _Charlie_ know to go out there? Or are they saying that Claire would have died in the ocean and floated out there for hours, and when Charlie finally wandered back to camp he'd look out and see her, and drown trying to rescue her corpse? If that's the case, why didn't Desmond get a flash about Claire? ("it doesn't work like that").


I didn't get that, either. And if this were to occur later, like you mentioned - maybe after she is already dead and Charlie goes out to get her later - then why did Desmond run, especially when Charlie was right there beside him?

Maybe Desmond is just messing with Charlie when he says he's saving Charlie instead of Claire. That would cause Charlie to back off and let Desmond do his thing.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

I have officially decided to let the writers explain through future episodes exactly what the hell is going on with Desmond. At this point, I just don't see any way we, the viewer, are supposed to see what's going on as an open and shut case. I like the theories, but it's all just a little too much for me to say, "Yeah, that's probably it."


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

jeff125va said:


> Ok, and true, but that would still be at least $10,000 per bottle, probably $1,000+ a shot with a bar's markup. Seems unlikely it would be in a pub without being locked in a cabinet, but I don't think it constitutes a major plot hole if we assume that Penny's dad's statement wasn't an exaggeration.


The more I think about it, I think that he actually was being a prick and it was just pretty good whiskey (this is the only part that doesn't make sense since I WOULD expect a guy like that to have super expensive whiskey) and was basically telling him you can't make even ~$50 a month.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> The more I think about it, I think that he actually was being a prick and it was just pretty good whiskey (this is the only part that doesn't make sense since I WOULD expect a guy like that to have super expensive whiskey) and was basically telling him you can't make even ~$50 a month.


That was exactly my take.

Widmore was exaggerating to be a sarcastic prick.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Now that we have episodes that are starting to deal directly with the flow of time, it will be interesting to see how this plays into Waaaalt's backward-talking.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Desmond was taking the drug injections because Kelvin told him that there was a disease outside, and the bunker was under quarantine, like the sign said. That was allegedly why Kelvin kept putting on that biohazard suit when going outside.

I would suppose that the very expensive liquor was on the duty-free cart on the plane. I'd bet if we went back to the scenes on the plane, we would probably see it there, or maybe the writers weren't thinking that far ahead with this trifling detail. 

Desmond has become a VERY interesting character. Did anyone keep track of all the diminutives of the name "Desmond" that he was called in this episode? It was starting to get pretty obvious that they were deliberately doing this.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Personally, I miss the Others. I liked the episodes that explained them to some extent. Now I want to know how they fit into this time travel thing, if that's what it is. When Juliet says she's been there 3 years, and Ben says all his life....

I also like Charlie. 

I'm a big Next Gen. fan--I have all the DVD's, but I don't remember Data's mother. I remember his Dad and brother and daughter. Can someone tell me the context of the episode with his mother in it? 

Hard to believe somebody in this thread has no idea who Data is--maybe they were kidding?


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Hard to believe somebody in this thread has no idea who Data is--maybe they were kidding?


I still don't know who data is...not kidding.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I'm a big Next Gen. fan--I have all the DVD's, but I don't remember Data's mother. I remember his Dad and brother and daughter. Can someone tell me the context of the episode with his mother in it?
> 
> Hard to believe somebody in this thread has no idea who Data is--maybe they were kidding?


Season 7, "Inheritance".
Flanagan played Julianna Soong Tainer.

She also played the Vulcan Ambassador V'Lar in the Enterprise Season 1 episode "Fallen Hero" (one of the few good episodes in Season 1 & 2).


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> I still don't know who data is...not kidding.


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

JYoung said:


>


Oh...okay. Now I know who he is.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I did a quick google on 60-year scotch and found this which says


> The company also sells a 60-year Scotch--at prices ranging to more than $22,000 per bottle.


But there's nothing about the prices of their 10-18 year stuff that would make it out of place in a pub or on the plane/island. And Penny's dad's bottle could have been a particularly rare vintage, too.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Ruth said:


> ETA: GCI Cable? I've consistently needed more than 5 min. of padding on Lost. In fact I have it set to pad 15 min. b/c once 10 min. wasn't long enough either.


Yeah. It's probably the local affiliate, not the cable company, but it's still annoying as hell. If it's ALWAYS gonna be on at 9, I can afford to pad it a bunch extra, since nothing is recording at 10, but if it's going to be on at 8, then padding can screw up my 9:00 recordings.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

devdogaz said:


> How is it possible that the show went that long? Is your local news starting that late? What is the cable company doing to get it to go so long? Starting the episode late? Inserting more commercials? I thought network afflilates were supposed to stay pretty close to the network clock. Mine wasn't padded at all and I didn't miss anything. I even got the whole preview.


The ABC and CBS affiliates here both have their clocks set a few minutes late. It is extremely annoying. My wife really tore me a new one when we missed the end of Grey's last night.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Interesting how different I interpreted desmond's decisions. Like I said, bat ducking or no, I think he decided to go back to the island because he knew it was important that he did so that the giant magnet didn't blow the world up.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> I did a quick google on 60-year scotch and found this which says
> But there's nothing about the prices of their 10-18 year stuff that would make it out of place in a pub or on the plane/island. And Penny's dad's bottle could have been a particularly rare vintage, too.


"Although Highland itself disappeared into Edrington, The Macallan emerged as one of the new Edrington's core brands. Under Edrington, The Macallan moved to take full advantage of its prestigious reputation. The company released a number of new labels, including a 15-year-old and a 30-year-old bottle in 1999. That launch was followed in 2000 with the release of a new 50-year label. In the meantime, demand for the group's limited 60-year-old Scotch continued to build, prompting company-held auction prices to top $20,000 per bottle. In 2003, the company debuted two new single malts, the 1841 and 1861 "replicas," said to be copies of two rare bottles of single-malt found in the company's own collection.

In 2003, The Macallan released a new collection of single malts. Dubbed "The Macallan Fine & Rare Vintage Collection," the offering featured bottles spanning a range of vintages from 1926 to 1973, valued at $170,000. In 2004, the newly opened Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa located in Atlantic City, New Jersey, became the first in the world to offer the full collection for sale by the glass--with prices per glass ranging up to $3,500. Under the Edrington Group's guidance, The Macallan seemed certain to retain its place at the top of the world's whiskey hill."

So how does that figure out to be for the price of a shot? And could it be more than what you could make in a month?


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Thanks JYoung--I'll look up the ep.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Church AV Guy said:


> Desmond was taking the drug injections because Kelvin told him that there was a disease outside, and the bunker was under quarantine, like the sign said. That was allegedly why Kelvin kept putting on that biohazard suit when going outside.


Except Desmond realized that wasn't true. He saw the tear in the suit's leg and realized if there had been an infection, Kelvin would be infected. He then followed Kelvin outside and saw that, once Kelvin knew Desmond couldn't see him, he took off his biohazzard suit, and thus Kelvin knew there was no real danger.

So why did Desmond continue taking injections? Well, I'd guess he did it just in case. The same way Jack was entering the numbers just in case, even though he didn't believe it served any purpose.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I did a quick google on 60-year scotch and found this which says
> But there's nothing about the prices of their 10-18 year stuff that would make it out of place in a pub or on the plane/island. And Penny's dad's bottle could have been a particularly rare vintage, too.


Comparing the bottle on the island with the ones in the bar and in Mr. Widmore's office, the labels are identical. If there were some significant difference like that, it would be prominent on the label.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

The flashback was all in his head and he kept inserting extra details into his recollections, such as the numbers, the Namaste, the polar bear, and maybe even the Scotch at the bar.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

NoThru22 said:


> The flashback was all in his head and he kept inserting extra details into his recollections, such as the numbers, the Namaste, the polar bear, and maybe even the Scotch at the bar.


Finally, someone who saw the same episode I did. Though we differ on the inserting details part, but still.

Desmond cannot truly go back in time. He begs to be given another chance with Penny, and clearly is denied. The one time was a gift, a learning experience, a flashback truer than one any of the other characters have ever had.

It was a flashback to teach him what he could and couldnt do. Its why Desmond is so anguished and mad at Charlie when Charlie asks what happened to him. He cant go back again!

Desmond simply glimpses future happenings, but lives his life in a linear way. He is a seer, not a time traveler. Just like Philosofy described him - Paul Atreides.

But the whole "universe is course correcting" thing - please. Of course Desmond can't save Charlie - he can't permanently save anyone! I hate to sound so fatalistic, but everyone dies. And not always of old age.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Oh, 22 and 13, I have a hunch you guys are going to HATE this show by the time it's done!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Interesting, and entirely expected, that the painting in Widmore's office was the same as one in Claire's boyfriend's apartment. There are pictures of both at losteastereggs.blogspot.com.

The more interesting part is the relative timelines. After leaving Widmore's office Desmond broke up with Penny, joined the army, did something to get himself jailed, got dishonourably discharged, trained for the race, crashedd on the island, and spent three years pushing the button. The scene with Claire in Tom's apartment happened shortly before the plane crashed, so it was at least 4, and more likely 6 or more years earlier.

I can see one of Tom's paintings somehow ending up in a millionnaire's office, but not the other way around. Of course this could just be the realities of a limited time/money budget (i.e. re-using props) or inconsistent writing (e.g. they wanted us to recognize that as Tom's painting, but not the timeline discontinuity). I doubt it.

So this was either a nod to some time discontinuity (parallel universe, whatever) or something else.

Desmond gets almost literally blown up and wakes up in the past; then he gets knocked on the head and comes back to the present. In the middle there is a guy wearing red shoes that has a oart of a building fall on him. Maybe all of this was just in his head, as has been brought up. Until I see definitive proof otherwise, I'll just leave it at that, and enjoy the rest of the story.

Now, this still doesn't explain his flash-forwards, but perhaps his explanation to Charlie is clouded by his experience in Oz, which may not have been real.

P.S. So is Desmond _Claire_voyant or _Charlie_voyant?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

betts4 said:


> "Although Highland itself disappeared into Edrington, The Macallan emerged as one of the new Edrington's core brands. Under Edrington, The Macallan moved to take full advantage of its prestigious reputation. The company released a number of new labels, including a 15-year-old and a 30-year-old bottle in 1999. That launch was followed in 2000 with the release of a new 50-year label. In the meantime, demand for the group's limited 60-year-old Scotch continued to build, prompting company-held auction prices to top $20,000 per bottle. In 2003, the company debuted two new single malts, the 1841 and 1861 "replicas," said to be copies of two rare bottles of single-malt found in the company's own collection.
> 
> In 2003, The Macallan released a new collection of single malts. Dubbed "The Macallan Fine & Rare Vintage Collection," the offering featured bottles spanning a range of vintages from 1926 to 1973, valued at $170,000. In 2004, the newly opened Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa located in Atlantic City, New Jersey, became the first in the world to offer the full collection for sale by the glass--with prices per glass ranging up to $3,500. Under the Edrington Group's guidance, The Macallan seemed certain to retain its place at the top of the world's whiskey hill."
> 
> So how does that figure out to be for the price of a shot? And could it be more than what you could make in a month?


Well my calculation a few posts back came out to about 17 1.5 oz. pours in a 750ml bottle. So even out of your own bottle without a bar's markup, that would equate to about $1,176 or $10,000 in those two examples. My feel is that it would be more like a $100,000 bottle - expensive enough that he could confidently assert it, but still low enough that it would be an insult. It also implies a lot about Widmore's wealth - I'd have to guess that there's a big difference between people who buy $100,000 bottles of whiskey as investments, and those who buy them to drink.



LordKronos said:


> Comparing the bottle on the island with the ones in the bar and in Mr. Widmore's office, the labels are identical. If there were some significant difference like that, it would be prominent on the label.


Thanks, I meant to ask if anyone had been able to compare them, that probably blows my theory.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Oh, 22 and 13, I have a hunch you guys are going to HATE this show by the time it's done!


Why? I don't jump on show-hating bandwagons until the show _actually_ sucks, like later Alias.


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

Desmond's elusive scotch was* MacCutcheon*.

Why are people citing information about "_Macallan_" scotch?!


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

For comparison.


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> Finally, someone who saw the same episode I did. Though we differ on the inserting details part, but still.
> 
> Desmond cannot truly go back in time. He begs to be given another chance with Penny, and clearly is denied. The one time was a gift, a learning experience, a flashback truer than one any of the other characters have ever had.
> 
> ...


I'm much closer to this camp than the time-traveling, as well. I can see it both ways, though. EITHER way, you have to make a pretty large jump in believability: A) Desmond can't predict the future, but time travel exists in some form or B) Desmond really is some sort precog and time travel is still a fantasy.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

If desmond cannot go back in time, then how do you explain the picture which was only taken in the "second" timeline?


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

Why would the picture only be taken in the second timeline? I assumed it was taken in each timeline (or just the first, or whatever!), but he just didn't remember it/make the connection until afterwards, when he really looked at it.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> If desmond cannot go back in time, then how do you explain the picture which was only taken in the "second" timeline?


The assumption being that in the 1st timeline, that picture never took place because Desmond never bought the ring, (as the woman said) and broke up with Peggy before he ever took her to the boardwalk to have the picture taken, correct? If I'm understanding it correctly, I would explain this by saying the above assumption isn't necessarily correct.


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

jradford said:


> The assumption being that in the 1st timeline, that picture never took place because Desmond never bought the ring, (as the woman said) and broke up with Peggy before he ever took her to the boardwalk to have the picture taken, correct? If I'm understanding it correctly, I would explain this by saying the above assumption isn't necessarily correct.


Or he broke up with Penny/Penelope. 

Or the photo did happen in the first timeline, because he was going to meet with her anyway, and they would have been walking through that same area. Just because he hadn't bought the ring before wouldn't have changed the fact they were meeting at a certain point in time.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Well, I just had a different interpretation of the episode and how it worked. I didn't realize that meant I was walking the path to the Dark Side.  

I just think Desmond's flashback was an example of "lost time". He revisited and came back, but that time segment was disconnected so no changes he made stuck. He also can't seem to go back. Odd for a time traveler.

So the photo exists as it always did.

Though it may be completely wrong, I find this concept easier for my poor brain to handle.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

avery said:


> Desmond's elusive scotch was* MacCutcheon*.
> 
> Why are people citing information about "_Macallan_" scotch?!


Because actual information on MacCutcheon scotch seems to be a little scarce (since it appears MacCutcheon scotch doesn't actually exist outside of the Lost universe)


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Delta13 said:


> Well, I just had a different interpretation of the episode and how it worked. I didn't realize that meant I was walking the path to the Dark Side.
> 
> I just think Desmond's flashback was an example of "lost time". He revisited and came back, but that time segment was disconnected so no changes he made stuck. He also can't seem to go back. Odd for a time traveler.
> 
> ...


This is why I like it, too.  Better to not give myself headaches until it's really necessary, _which it might be at some point_, but I'm not convinced yet.

The difference in interpretations does not make the episode any less fantastic, in my opinion. I mean, honestly, it's Lost, are we really SUPPOSED to know the answer to this after only one episode?


----------



## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

I haven't read the whole thread so I might have missed it, but am I (actually my wife noticed it) the only one who noticed that it seemed like there was the Dharma sign on that guys red shoes. THe guy who got killed by the building. I paused the TV when they showed the shoes sticking out and I thought I saw the Dharma emblem/sign.


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I was at a Science Fiction Media Convention this weekend and there was a panel on Lost. A number of people were saying how upset they were that the questions weren't really ever answered. I was in a minority. I am one of the people that is enjoying the show, loved this last weeks episode, looking forward to 2/21 and what it brings and am not upset about answers/questions or new questions. 

Why? because I am just totally enjoying the whole Lost world that I don't seem to mind that questions are or are not answered. I mean, sure I would like them to be sometime, but if they aren't in the ten minutes or two seasons after they are presented, rather than make myself crazy, I go with it. 

Still don't know so many things that it is just fun to sit and contemplate the reasons, yet not work myself into a frenzy about it. Desmonds episode was like that. I love sitting and thinking about it, but there are so many ins and outs and time distortion and alternate time universes possiblities that - well, who knows? Just Enjoy the show!!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

jradford said:


> The assumption being that in the 1st timeline, that picture never took place because Desmond never bought the ring, (as the woman said) and broke up with Peggy before he ever took her to the boardwalk to have the picture taken, correct? If I'm understanding it correctly, I would explain this by saying the above assumption isn't necessarily correct.


Well, I guess you can explain away the assumption that there was no time travelling, but that would be a definite shark jump for me. I don't appreciate the notion that the show would display one thing to us that is entirely fictional just to mess with our heads. The explanation taken literally in the episode fits with the question that needed to be answered. So now people are basically assuming that everything in the episode was a lie and we are back to square one having no idea how desmond has his abilities. Thus the only thing we learned is that charlie is fated to die.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Well, I guess you can explain away the assumption that there was no time travelling, but that would be a definite shark jump for me. I don't appreciate the notion that the show would display one thing to us that is entirely fictional just to mess with our heads. The explanation taken literally in the episode fits with the question that needed to be answered. So now people are basically assuming that everything in the episode was a lie and we are back to square one having no idea how desmond has his abilities. Thus the only thing we learned is that charlie is fated to die.


Well, I don't think the whole flashback was necessarily a lie, I just think it was an entirely different way to show someone's backstory, or something close to it. Basically, we saw Desmond's life before the island, just like we saw everyone else, but we saw it through him dreaming while in some sort of coma. It is not entirely fictional. For instance, I DO think that before he got to the island, Desmond went to ask Peggy's dad for her hand and got dismissed just like we saw it. The whole point of the flashback was to teach us about Peggy and Desmond, and I think they succeeded. We got a very good idea of what makes Desmond who he is now.

I absolutely despise the use of "shark jump," but time-travel would seem to fit the bill a lot better to me. I'm not saying it would be, but it seems a lot more out there in this show compared to an alternate way to handle a flashback.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

We had already seen a decent amount of desmond's story. A lot of what we saw was old information. For the most part, the only new information was the weird time travel stuff in the flashback.

So you would rather they just jerk us around without ever telling us what really happened than give us an explanation that is somewhat out there? I really have no desire to watch Lost if they are literally just going to throw in random explanations that aren't meant to be taken as real explanations. 

Next episode Jack will be terrorized by a killer clown who molests him as a child, and the clown will turn out to be ben, who moved to the island to escape criminal charges. All the others are just other pedophile criminals too. Except it's all false and has nothing to do with the real story. End credits.


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## lonwolf615 (May 19, 2004)

Wow, you got all that from this episode? Everything in this thread is speculation, isn't it? If its a good mystery the "truth" is going to come as a complete surprise. Thats how mysteries work. We won't really know if they played fair until the end. All we can really do is enjoy the ride for now. Its the journey thats important, not the final destination-sorta like National Lampoon's Summer Vacation.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

LordKronos said:


> Because actual information on MacCutcheon scotch seems to be a little scarce (since it appears MacCutcheon scotch doesn't actually exist outside of the Lost universe)


lmao! classic!


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

lonwolf615 said:


> Wow, you got all that from this episode? Everything in this thread is speculation, isn't it? If its a good mystery the "truth" is going to come as a complete surprise. Thats how mysteries work. We won't really know if they played fair until the end. All we can really do is enjoy the ride for now. Its the journey thats important, not the final destination-sorta like National Lampoon's Summer Vacation.


I agree that the journey is very important, but the final destination counts too. I'm enjoying this show as it goes, and I agree that people worry too much about where it's going. However, they could have an ending that would be so lame as to ruin the whole show. For example, if suddenly in the last episode, Jack wakes up on the plane and says "Tat sure was a kooky dream" and then Flight 815 lands safely at LAX, a lot of people would be really pissed and would think that more than just that hour was a waste of their time. There had better be some sort of pay-off. That said, I think there will be, and you're right that all we can do now is speculate as to what it will be.

On an unrelated note, I enjoyed that Charlie was singing an Oasis song on the street in Desmond's flashback (or whatever the heck it was).


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

A good mystery doesn't throw around red herrings left and right and then arbitrarily choose an ending. That's what a lame mystery does. A good mystery provides clues to the viewer who can dissect them and solve the mystery bit by bit with the "ending" merely providing the last clue necessary to piece it together (or no final piece).

If everything we saw in this episode was a red herring, and it is an indication of how Lost is supposed to be viewed (i.e. here's some interesting character stuff and some random clues that may or may not be red herrings and we won't ever really tell you), it will just effecitvely be a daytime soap with better character writing. I don't want clues to be fake clues if an entire show is spent on explaining the clue.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Therefore, I choose to interpret the episode at least somewhat literally and not strictly as a figment of desmond's imagination or concussion hallucination.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

TAsunder said:


> Next episode Jack will be terrorized by a killer clown who molests him as a child, and the clown will turn out to be ben, who moved to the island to escape criminal charges. All the others are just other pedophile criminals too. Except it's all false and has nothing to do with the real story. End credits.


Dude...spoiler tags 

Ben is creepy enough for me...I'd hate to see him change into a pedophile clown.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Therefore, I choose to interpret the episode at least somewhat literally and not strictly as a figment of desmond's imagination or concussion hallucination.


I don't think there's anything wrong with this interpretation, I just don't think my interpretation means that the whole thing was a "red herring" or a "jump the shark" moment. You want bits and clues to try to solve the mystery along the way. Well, Time Travel could be part of the solution to the mystery, but do you really think that it's an open and shut case? I say take this episode as a clue, not an answer, and see what happens down the road.

You say we already knew a lot about Desmond's backstory. I disagree. We knew hardly anything about Penny and why she might be searching for him at the end of Season 2. They were able to establish the Desmond and Penny lovestory to the point that I think it could be one of the most important things in the entire show.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that this way of interpretation is the correct one. Instead, I'm just arguing that dismissing this episode as pointless and a red herring if Time Travel is not correct would be a disservice to the episode and the show.

Edit: I can't WAIT until the podcast to hear what Carlton and Damon have to say about all the theories. I thought it would be available to stream online by now, though.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

It is by definition a red herring if they show desmond apparently time travelling or some similar metaphysical transportation when in reality he didn't time travel and just got bumped on the head. I am not sure how else it could be interpreted. It may be irrelevant to the "overall" plot regardless of what's happening with desmond, but in terms of "what's going on with desmond?" mystery, it would be a red herring.

And if it is in fact irrelevant to the overall mystery, in that sense it is also a red herring.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

TAsunder said:


> Therefore, I choose to interpret the episode at least somewhat literally and not strictly as a figment of desmond's imagination or concussion hallucination.


I still think we were given enough clues that this "flashback" was Dorothy in Oz -- i.e. not reality. That's my choice. For now.


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## lonwolf615 (May 19, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Therefore, I choose to interpret the episode at least somewhat literally and not strictly as a figment of desmond's imagination or concussion hallucination.


Me too...I just don't have any idea what it means. 
I never watched this show just because of what you're saying. Its funny, the EW story mentioned the two series that made me leery of any series with an underlying mystery-X-Files and Twin Peaks. I was darned if I was gonna be sucked in again only to never have a satisfactory payoff! But then we watched the first 2 seasons, got hooked, and here we are. Now all I can do is have faith that its going to be worth the trip while fighting the nagging doubt it won't be... 
It just seems to me that while we can speculate all we want and try to figure it out, a value judgment on the series itself will have to wait until the conclusion. Its the nature of the beast. However it turns out Lost is great television. Whether its the greatest ever for me is going to depend on the payoff.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> And if it is in fact irrelevant to the overall mystery, in that sense it is also a red herring.


This is the only thing that bothers me. It seems like you are assuming that everything we saw is almost irrelevant if he wasn't time traveling. I just don't get it. The episode can STILL be filled with clues to the mystery.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

jradford said:


> This is the only thing that bothers me. It seems like you are assuming that everything we saw is almost irrelevant if he wasn't time traveling. I just don't get it. The episode can STILL be filled with clues to the mystery.


It's more like... if desmond totally hallucinated the whole thing, then the entire explanation for how desmond is able to see the future is still unanswered. I agree that there is some minor plot developments to the overall island mystery. Although there is little in the episode I didn't really assume or know about desmond's actual back story. But anyway, it would be really stupid to me if they set up all the "here's why he has powers" stuff and then knocked it down later as totally false.

True, you could just pretend like it was all a hallucination and the only relevant information is that he saw moments of his life flash before his eyes and continues to do so for future events, but it just seems really tacky to me. Not saying it isn't possible but it would be a really big issue for me if true, because it would make me much less motivated to care about individual episodes that supposedly "reveal" some information.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

jradford said:


> They were able to establish the Desmond and Penny lovestory to the point that I think it could be one of the most important things in the entire show.


In an interview, creators Cuse and Lindelof reveal:


Spoiler



I think the Desmond-Penny love story is really central to the whole overall mythology of the show. [Desmond] sort of leveled Charlie with this very sort of specific proclamation at the end of the episode, that Charlie is going to die. And coming down all the way through the end of season three, that becomes a very major storyline that we're following, which is, Desmond keeps seeing Charlie die and can he stop it? Is he powerless to stop it?





wprager said:


> I still think we were given enough clues that this "flashback" was Dorothy in Oz -- i.e. not reality. That's my choice. For now.


I saw it different. I never felt we were given clear clues (much less enough clues) that it was OzLandia.

But if it was clear, it wouldn't be LOST.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Count me in the "Desmond pulled a Dorothy of Oz" camp. I saw the whole episode as one big flashback, but rather than having "past" Desmond live it the way it actually happened, we had the "current" Desmond re-live it through the filter of the future (i.e., being on the island, meeting Charlie, etc.). It's just like you re-living a past experience through today's eyes.

For those of who are decrying that this hour was a waste since it was all a hallucination, we got to see how Des decided to join the Royal Navy. We got to see why Widmore hated Des's relationship with Penny. We now see why he joined the solo race around the world. This episode gave quite a bit to Desmond's backstory, including the fact that he thought about marrying Penny, going so far to visit a pawnshop, but he never did anything about it.

I don't know why people are saying the photograph is now new. It's not new; it always existed. Remember, we saw it in the hatch. There was the debate back then who the woman was in the photograph. People thought it was Libby. We know now that it was Penny and where they were.

The only thing that is unexplained is why Desmond's suddenly a precog. What happened to him in the hatch to receive that ability? It's not the first time our Losties have had premonitions. Look at Locke and Boone or Locke and Eko.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

NYHeel said:


> I haven't read the whole thread so I might have missed it, but am I (actually my wife noticed it) the only one who noticed that it seemed like there was the Dharma sign on that guys red shoes. THe guy who got killed by the building. I paused the TV when they showed the shoes sticking out and I thought I saw the Dharma emblem/sign.


I haven't seen anyone mention it either. I had noticed it right away, but when I rewound and replayed it, it didn't really look like a Dharma logo to me. Perhaps it would help if I had HD, but I didn't really see any dashed lines in an octagon shape. I saw a few dots or dashes at the top of the logo, but nothing at the bottom, so I dismissed it an never brought it up. If someone has an HD capture that shows my first instinct was right (and my review was wrong), please post it.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> I haven't seen anyone mention it either. I had noticed it right away, but when I rewound and replayed it, it didn't really look like a Dharma logo to me. Perhaps it would help if I had HD, but I didn't really see any dashed lines in an octagon shape. I saw a few dots or dashes at the top of the logo, but nothing at the bottom, so I dismissed it an never brought it up. If someone has an HD capture that shows my first instinct was right (and my review was wrong), please post it.


Click pic for larger version.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Thanks.

Thats pretty much what I thought it looked like when I rewatched it. That doesn't seem much like a Dharma logo to me...at least not anyone I recall seeing so far. I don't see the solid outer octagon and 3 inner dashed octagons. That just looks like some round symbol with sort of a starburst pattern around the top and sides, and a bunch of dots below.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

hefe said:


> Click pic for larger version.


PF Flyers!


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

If it makes you feel better, don't call what happened to Desmond a hallucination. Call it an "interactive flashback".


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> Because actual information on MacCutcheon scotch seems to be a little scarce (since it appears MacCutcheon scotch doesn't actually exist outside of the Lost universe)


Well, that was more or less my point. It's a fictional product. It served its purpose in the episode - a vehicle to convey Penny's father's disdain of Desmond. The writers just happened to have used scotch to do it but it could have been anything. Attempting to attribute real-world value to it, to the point of minutiae, is pointless and irrelevant.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

avery said:


> Well, that was more or less my point. It's a fictional product. It served its purpose in the episode - a vehicle to convey Penny's father's disdain of Desmond. The writers just happened to have used scotch to do it but it could have been anything. Attempting to attribute real-world value to it, to the point of minutiae, is pointless and irrelevant.


In other words it wasn't either a MacCutcheon or a MaCallan -- it was a McGuffin  .


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

wprager said:


> In other words it wasn't either a MacCutcheon or a MaCallan -- it was a McGuffin  .


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

Read a great essay today likening Lost to Canterbury Tales and somewhat to Dickinson. Well, without the medieval english. The more I read, the more I could see it. Of course, haven't read Canterbury Tales since high school. A connection of one large story being told thru seperate tales and various characters.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

avery said:


> Well, that was more or less my point. It's a fictional product. It served its purpose in the episode - a vehicle to convey Penny's father's disdain of Desmond. The writers just happened to have used scotch to do it but it could have been anything. Attempting to attribute real-world value to it, to the point of minutiae, is pointless and irrelevant.


Not entirely. It's relevant as to whether Widmore is a man who says what he means and means what he says. I.e., was his statement factual or not, at least to the extent that the scotch in the glass would cost more than _he believed_ Desmond would ever make in a month? The impact of his assertion would certainly be greater if it were actually factual, rather than merely hyperbole. So it is relevant to ponder whether such a product is realistic. And clearly, it is, and as such it begs the question of why such an expensive bottle would be in either the pub or in Sawyer's stash. As to whether there are more interesting things to discuss from this episode, I'd definitely agree that there are.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> The only thing that is unexplained is why Desmond's suddenly a precog. What happened to him in the hatch to receive that ability? It's not the first time our Losties have had premonitions. Look at Locke and Boone or Locke and Eko.


It's only unexplained if you choose to interpret the episode as a wizard of oz flashback. That's the basic point I'm making... that they wrote it as an explanation for his precog powers, at least partially, so if you choose to ignroe that explanation then the episode was effectively a red herring in that respect.

I don't remember them ever doing that before, altough it's possible. Usually when they explain something they explain it, and then open up more questions as a result. I don't recall them ever throwing around red herrings.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

I really enjoyed the episode and feel that LOST is entering more interesting story territory with Desmond as opposed to the detour with Henry & Friends. I'm in the camp that his 'flashbacks' were repeat actual experiences. As usual, the LOST writers leave in just enough ambiguity for folks to project their own wild interpretations and defend them vigorously despite any evidence to the contrary.

Compared to the disappointing direction that writing on this season's "Battlestar Galactica" has taken, LOST continues to answer some old questions and pose fresh mysteries while keeping reasonable continuity. Intriguing, and nothing like the lame disaster that "Twin Peaks" became.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

tewcewl said:


> Count me in the "Desmond pulled a Dorothy of Oz" camp. I saw the whole episode as one big flashback, but rather than having "past" Desmond live it the way it actually happened, we had the "current" Desmond re-live it through the filter of the future (i.e., being on the island, meeting Charlie, etc.). It's just like you re-living a past experience through today's eyes.


That's my take. Can we interpret all of the flashbacks this way? All of the characters have something they're looking for - Jack his courage, Locke his legs, and so on.



tewcewl said:


> The only thing that is unexplained is why Desmond's suddenly a precog. What happened to him in the hatch to receive that ability? It's not the first time our Losties have had premonitions. Look at Locke and Boone or Locke and Eko.


It's is explained if what we are seeing is still a flashback of Desmond's, but from a future time. Maybe everything we're seeing in the show is somebody's flashback from some time, possibly in the future. Maybe we're seeing the various events from a bunch of different perspectives.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> DOH! Oh man, yeah, believe it or not, I was serious.. I've always thought it was a strange thing to have a "solar" race that somehow involved a sailboat.. like it was some new-age energy thing or something. When he said it again I was like "wow, again with the solar thing.. wtf?".. Until you said that, I didn't even think I could have been hearing it wrong.
> 
> Doh. Solo. Makes muuuuuuuuuuuuch more sense now.  Thank you!
> 
> ..Jeff (occasional idiot)


How did you miss the huge discussion we had about "solo/solar" last season? It was only slightly less heated than "goth/gaunt" and "we're the/there were no."


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

bdlucas said:


> It's is explained if what we are seeing is still a flashback of Desmond's, but from a future time. Maybe everything we're seeing in the show is somebody's flashback from some time, possibly in the future. Maybe we're seeing the various events from a bunch of different perspectives.


How does that explain it? Even if everything we saw was 30 years ago, we see desmond knowing what was going to happen before it happened. Are you suggesting that the entire story of lost is just a big messed up dream and therefore desmond can have super powers much like how i occasionally can walk on lava in my dreams?


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Are you suggesting that the entire story of lost is just a big messed up dream and therefore desmond can have super powers much like how i occasionally can walk on lava in my dreams?


Maybe not just "a" dream or flashback, but perhaps a story constructed by interweaving flashbacks from a future vantage point of various of the lostees. Not sure what you mean by "messed up" - was Desmond's flashback that we saw messed up? He didn't walk on lava or anything like that.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

No but he could see the future. Usually when I think back to the past I don't remember myself seeing the future. That actually is more impressive than walking on lava, to me anyway.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

OK, so Desmond's flashback was "messed up" in that sense. Let's call that "informed precognition".  My point is that if he could have a flashback to the pre-island inclusive of informed precognition, if what we have been seeing the whole time is such a flashback from post-island (or multiple such flashbacks from different perspectives interweaved, because I'd prefer not to think that Desmond had a special role in this), then what we are seeing is still informed precognition.

Now all we have to do is explain the funky "messed up" flashbacks that include informed precognition but not walking on lava.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

devdogaz said:


> How did you miss the huge discussion we had about "solo/solar" last season? It was only slightly less heated than "goth/gaunt" and "we're the/there were no."


Good question, I dunno.. I think I missed one week, but I'm not sure.. I know I was working all summer long but Lost was before that, so I should have caught it.

Doh. Now I'm confused.. Must.. resist.. urge.. to.. bother.. searching.. old.. threads!!!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I missed the solo conversation too. There was a period where I didn't bother with lost theories because the show had really faded for me and didn't seem worthy of discussion.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

bdlucas said:


> OK, so Desmond's flashback was "messed up" in that sense. Let's call that "informed precognition".  My point is that if he could have a flashback to the pre-island inclusive of informed precognition, if what we have been seeing the whole time is such a flashback from post-island (or multiple such flashbacks from different perspectives interweaved, because I'd prefer not to think that Desmond had a special role in this), then what we are seeing is still informed precognition.
> 
> Now all we have to do is explain the funky "messed up" flashbacks that include informed precognition but not walking on lava.


  Dude, you've really lost me. "Informed precognition"? What other kind would there be? I'm trying to figure out what uninformed precognition would look like.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> Dude, you've really lost me. "Informed precognition"? What other kind would there be? I'm trying to figure out what uninformed precognition would look like.


Hmm, how 'bout when my wife said 'yes' when I asked her to marry me? I can only assume *informed* precognition would have led to a different answer


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

wprager said:


> In other words it wasn't either a MacCutcheon or a MaCallan -- it was a McGuffin  .


yes. Exactly!


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

mqpickles said:


> Dude, you've really lost me. "Informed precognition"? What other kind would there be? I'm trying to figure out what uninformed precognition would look like.


Sorry about that. I just made up a term (apparently a confusing one) to describe what appeared to be "precognition" in a flashback or dream (assuming that's what it was), but was in fact based on actual knowledge of events that he had experienced, and so wasn't really precognition at all. How about "pseudo-precognition"?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

bdlucas said:


> Sorry about that. I just made up a term (apparently a confusing one) to describe what appeared to be "precognition" in a flashback or dream (assuming that's what it was), but was in fact based on actual knowledge of events that he had experienced, and so wasn't really precognition at all. How about "pseudo-precognition"?


Okay, I think I get it now. And I'm going to quit while I'm ahead rather than thinking about it anymore.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> Good question, I dunno.. I think I missed one week, but I'm not sure.. I know I was working all summer long but Lost was before that, so I should have caught it.
> 
> Doh. Now I'm confused.. Must.. resist.. urge.. to.. bother.. searching.. old.. threads!!!


Start here.


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

I don't see this as a dream or Wizard of Oz type experience...but as a real time travel/alternate timeline type scenerio.

I think that Desmond has already lived into the future, then has been thrown back again and is living "current" Lostie time with memories of what has already happened in the future. I think some big event in the future will throw him back in time again.

I think that he broke up with Penny in the first reality, and still broke up with her this last reliving of the past..but I think that he has already lived a new past where he doesn't break up with her and tells her about the island...thus the reason she is looking for him. 

Maybe I am just taking things at face value which is usually not the case with Lost, but it seems like the right explanation as to why Penny has people looking for them, is aware of the island and Magnetic forces, why he sees things before they happen, etc.

If anyone has ever read Dean Koontz's "Strange Highways", I see a similiarity here.....reliving things until he does it right.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Another alternative being that she always followed what he was doing and where he was once they broke up at least casually and once she wasn't able to locate him, went after him. There's no reason to assume she stopped loving him...


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Just finished listening to the podcast. From what I can tell:



Spoiler



Well, it sounds like Damon was basically saying, "Yes, he traveled in time." There is a little gray area, possibly, but if you were in the 'time travel' camp, the podcast could definitely be submitted as evidence to support your case. Hopefully the whole thing is revisited sometime soon. In Lost time, that means, I don't know, THIS season.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,253221,00.html

Archaeologists unearth an artificial eye and a backgammon set. Hmmmm...


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## avery (May 29, 2006)

unixadm said:


> I don't see this as a dream or Wizard of Oz type experience...but as a real time travel/alternate timeline type scenerio.
> 
> I think that Desmond has already lived into the future, then has been thrown back again and is living "current" Lostie time with memories of what has already happened in the future. I think some big event in the future will throw him back in time again.
> 
> ...


This is totally what I have been thinking too. Though I've never read "Strange Highways", I agree with everything you said.

It's why I don't buy into the precognition theory. Precognition would be an awareness of something that _hasn't_ happened yet. Desmond's knowledge comes from _having _lived it multiple times already.

One thing I'm still wrestling with is whether he's entering and exiting at only pivotal points along his own timeline or is he living his *lives* out in a linear fashion.
.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

The one thing that haunts me (that I try to forget) is just how much I thought about Alias when it was on. I suppose I should spoilerize this - I'll talk about the ending to Alias (the entire show):



Spoiler



From the Pilot episode, it was clear something was going on with time.. A guy 500 years in the past had access to polymers that weren't invented yet, etc. It'd have been cool to have the tech guy (I forget his name) end up going back in time at the end, and being Rhambaldi himself.. Or to have Sydney end up going back and being her mother or something.. They telegraphed it..

Instead, they went with a really weak end - Rhambaldi was just a guy who could see the future, and who perfected immortality (but wasn't alive himself.. great). So many good ways they could have ended it, and they didn't...



For those not reading the spoilerized stuff, suffice it to say I was disappointed in the end. Abrahms is part of the helm here, and even though he didn't have much involvement with the end of Alias there, I'll bet he could have objected.. So I'm a biiiit worried.

..but I still have faith. 

Here we go! 10pm!


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Nope.. When Desmond got out of military prison and was discharged, Widmore was there to meet him.


Which was in a different timeline. In this episode, he hadn't yet been in the military. Then, later on, he joins in an attempt to impress dad. Which didn't work.

I'm surprised to see so much debate here. I really thought the "Desmond is in Groundhog Day" was rather obvious.

Like Bill Murray, the only question is how many times has Desmond tried this?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Fraser+Dief said:


> I'm surprised to see so much debate here. I really thought the "Desmond is in Groundhog Day" was rather obvious.
> 
> Like Bill Murray, the only question is how many times has Desmond tried this?


I'd guess not that many, or he'd remember which night there was the come-back victory and the beaning of the bartender.


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