# Heroes Reborn: Full Season



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

There.

The Katana girl is weird. Who has the power? Her? Is it in the sword? Her father who made it?


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Fool me once....


How was it?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I liked it. Obviously, they are starting slow and letting things develop. No Syler, and no twins with gunk in their eyes. I stopped watching in the middle of S2 of the first series.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

So far so good, IMHO. It seems unfocused, but this is only the first ep. It could go either way.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

They seem to be trying to go back to the well a bit with the storyline, mostly from season one with all the bag-and-tag stuff, a little bit from season three with the government registration act.

I found the Robbie Kay character a bit distracting because he was the central part of the Peter Pan storyline that ruined Once Upon a Time for me.

Another nit: two ordinary people with conventional weapons take out an entire room full of evos? Really? The guy with super speed should have been able to drop both of them by himself, but instead he just runs around the room in a circle until one of the ordinary humans shoots him.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I started touching on it in the other thread. I'm still on the fence about it. It seems a lot like the original series. If that's the case, it won't hold me for long. The first one had some pretty sloppy writing. For instance, the guy that tried to kill Noah? Why didn't he just kill him? He could have just pulled out a gun and shot him. But he decides to try to strangle him instead.

I didn't like the two killers running around committing mass murder. They not only kill any evos they find, and come off incredibly one-dimensionally in the process, but will kill any regular person who happens to be around. I foresee them being like Sylar was in the first series. He was a horrible viscous villain, but the audience liked him, so they tried to build him up as being more than just a monster. And because the audience liked him, they just didn't want to outright kill him, so they went through convoluted methods to keep him alive. If you have very complex scripts, you need strong writing skills to pull it off, and it always came off as artificial to me. I can see these two killers being similar. They'll always be, in essence, mass murderers, but we'll be stuck with them for a long time.

I like the penny guy. "A penny for your thoughts." LOL. Here's a question.... was his briefcase filled with pennies? If so, wouldn't it be pretty heavy? Would he have extra strength?


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> ...
> Another nit: two ordinary people with conventional weapons take out an entire room full of evos? Really? The guy with super speed should have been able to drop both of them by himself, but instead he just runs around the room in a circle until one of the ordinary humans shoots him.


I can understand the speedster not attacking them, but if he's too afraid to engage them, I'd expect him to run out rather than just run around the room.

Depending on their powers, I could see a couple of people with handguns taking out a room full of people. They're not fighters, they're just people who found they have an ability. A handgun can do a lot of damage quickly.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

nickels said:


> Fool me once....


I'm in this camp. Not a chance I'll be watching...again.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> I can understand the speedster not attacking them, but if he's too afraid to engage them, I'd expect him to run out rather than just run around the room.
> 
> Depending on their powers, I could see a couple of people with handguns taking out a room full of people. They're not fighters, they're just people who found they have an ability. A handgun can do a lot of damage quickly.


That's how I see it. Those evos clearly had no training or fighting skills. If those killers ever encounter evos with any fighting skills, they'll get fryed, frozen, or pounded 1,000 times a second, depending on the powers involved.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

allan said:


> That's how I see it. Those evos clearly had no training or fighting skills. If those killers ever encounter evos with any fighting skills, they'll get fryed, frozen, or pounded 1,000 times a second, depending on the powers involved.


Which made sense in context...this wasn't a revolutionary terror cell plotting the violent downfall of humanity. It's just a bunch of people getting together in a support group to whine about how hard life is as an Evo.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> I
> I like the penny guy. "A penny for your thoughts." LOL. Here's a question.... was his briefcase filled with pennies? If so, wouldn't it be pretty heavy? Would he have extra strength?


I was also pondering the weight issue, thinking "how strong is he?"



bobcarn said:


> I can understand the speedster not attacking them, but if he's too afraid to engage them, I'd expect him to run out rather than just run around the room.


My impression was that he wasn't particularly in control of his speed, either due to panic or lack of control.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which made sense in context...this wasn't a revolutionary terror cell plotting the violent downfall of humanity. It's just a bunch of people getting together in a support group to whine about how hard life is as an Evo.


How Emo of them.


I'm still doing a WTF over Katana's power. When she first tried it out, I remember thinking that it was a useless power.
But I guess she can enter Cyberspace and come out somewhere else.

Any bets on whether she's Hiro's daughter?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

JYoung said:


> Any bets on whether she's Hiro's daughter?


Did Hiro time travel about 15 years in the past to copulate with the mother?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Any bets on whether she's Hiro's daughter?


Well, we saw her father, and he looks nothing like Hiro, plus he's played by a fairly familiar actor...










But the actor's name is Hiro, so you're kinda right!


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

Got through the first 20 minutes. Enjoyed it the first time around, but didn't like what I saw this time. Also, don't like subtitles and it appears there will be a lot (as there were in the first series - but at least the premise was novel and well presented back then). 

Yeah - add me to the "fool me once" camp too


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Did Hiro time travel about 15 years in the past to copulate with the mother?


In one part of the "upcoming" at the end they flashed a bit with Hiro and he had gray in his hair, so there does seem to be some sort of time travel bit going on here.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, we saw her father, and he looks nothing like Hiro, plus he's played by a fairly familiar actor...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are we sure that was her Father? I knew that was the developer of the game, but I didn't think they confirmed it was her father. Although at one point in the game part she says something about recognizing his voice and it's very deep, not like Hiro's at all, so you're probably right.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Did Hiro time travel about 15 years in the past to copulate with the mother?


You say that like it's not possible.



Dan203 said:


> In one part of the "upcoming" at the end they flashed a bit with Hiro and he had gray in his hair, so there does seem to be some sort of time travel bit going on here.
> 
> Are we sure that was her Father? I knew that was the developer of the game, but I didn't think they confirmed it was her father. Although at one point in the game part she says something about recognizing his voice and it's very deep, not like Hiro's at all, so you're probably right.


Dan has a point that it's not set in stone that on who's her father yet.

Although since Masi Oka is currently a regular on Hawaii Five-O, it's not like he's available to play a big role here.

I had considered that the whole video game bit was one way to work around his availability.


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I stopped watching Heroes so not exactly sure why I watched this.
I felt like it needed a "previously on" Heroes recap....


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

bobcarn said:


> For instance, the guy that tried to kill Noah? Why didn't he just kill him? He could have just pulled out a gun and shot him. But he decides to try to strangle him instead.


If I recall correctly the Haitian has the ability to wipe memories and to render people unconscious by touching peoples heads. He also can turn off other EVO's powers while their in his presence.

The Haitian could have simply touched Noah's head and rendered him unconscious and then killed him.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

nickels said:


> Fool me once....
> 
> How was it?


Yeah, no kidding! Zero chance I'd watch this.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I was hoping it would go further back to the basics. Instead, there were lots of references to characters from the original. I watched it with my wife who had never seen the original. She said she liked it, but she must have been missing a lot of context. 

I thought what made the original season of the original series interesting was that there were relatively few people with powers. This one, to maintain continuity, starts out with lots of people with powers. I don't find it as interesting a starting point. 

I wish Hiro had just gone back in time and rebooted the whole universe.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Malcontent said:


> If I recall correctly the Haitian has the ability to wipe memories and to render people unconscious by touching peoples heads. He also can turn off other EVO's powers while their in his presence.
> 
> The Haitian could have simply touched Noah's head and rendered him unconscious and then killed him.


Or, when he was standing behind Noah, he could've just shot him.

Dr. Evil: We are going to put Austin Powers in an elaborately and needlessly complex device and leave him, trusting that the device will kill him.
Scott Evil: Why don't I just shoot him. Now. Pow!
Dr. Evil: You just don't get it.


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## ellinj (Feb 26, 2002)

I missed some parts of the show do to by ADHD, but what is the significance of Molly Walker?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ellinj said:


> I missed some parts of the show do to by ADHD, but what is the significance of Molly Walker?


She can find anybody.


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

I started it, but immediately got the feel that this was a continuation of the previous Heroes series which I gave up on for being terrible. So I felt like I was missing context as well, so I stopped......

Now I'm wondering if I should finish the first series then watch this, but there was just something that got so terrible about the first series, I'm not sure I want to do that......


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

ellinj said:


> I missed some parts of the show do to by ADHD, but what is the significance of Molly Walker?


She was in the prior series.


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

bobcarn said:


> Or, when he was standing behind Noah, he could've just shot him.
> 
> Dr. Evil: We are going to put Austin Powers in an elaborately and needlessly complex device and leave him, trusting that the device will kill him.
> Scott Evil: Why don't I just shoot him. Now. Pow!
> Dr. Evil: You just don't get it.


So much this.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Yeah, I get what you are all talking about, but I found it entertaining, and I try not to over think these types of shows, but maybe that's because I'm not a SciFi/comic book geek and I just accept stuff for how they are. I watched the original until about midway through the last season when it just got stupid. 

I like the teenager and his not figuring out how to control what he does and not being sure exactly what that is, but you knew the boyfriend would find him out. I also liked the penny guy, and I'm guessing he's a caretaker for the evos of some sort. Not sure about Zach Levi's and his "wife's" character yet, because I'm not sure what his purpose is yet, but maybe that will be explained later.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Not sure about Zach Levi's and his "wife's" character yet, because I'm not sure what his purpose is yet, but maybe that will be explained later.


Not sure why you put wife in quotes...their son died at the Primatech explosion, and they blame the Evos and want to kill them all for revenge. She's just a bit more dedicated to the mission than he is.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

I've tried to watch this 4 times already. I keep falling asleep. I'll try again at lunch today.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

MonsterJoe said:


> I've tried to watch this 4 times already. I keep falling asleep. I'll try again at lunch today.


I fell asleep twice before finally abandoning watching the second hour until the following day.

It was ok although I'm tired of reading English subtitles in the Japanese segments already. I'll keep watching until something else knocks it out of the rotation.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Not only did I watch this (I gave up on the original about 1.5 seasons before it ended), but I just started watching the original again with my kids, who are seeing it for the first time. They've seen the first two episodes of season one and none of the reboot, and they are liking it. It did start strong. The reboot started okayish.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Reborn isn't a reboot; it's a sequel. FYI.


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

I enjoyed it enough to watch again. 

The Katana girl storyline seemed WAY out of place but at least near the end they showed her kicking butt in the real world instead of the fake one.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Maui said:


> I enjoyed it enough to watch again.
> 
> The Katana girl storyline seemed WAY out of place but at least near the end they showed her kicking butt in the real world instead of the fake one.


Yeah, my knee-jerk thought was a WTF, but it could be good. It's certainly different.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Maui said:


> I enjoyed it enough to watch again.
> 
> The Katana girl storyline seemed WAY out of place but at least near the end they showed her kicking butt in the real world instead of the fake one.


I've been ignoring the Katana Girl aspect because it's just too weird. I could see an interesting super power being to be able to digitize yourself, pass through the internet, and then reappear somewhere where there's a terminal. But what they did here was just weird.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

bobcarn said:


> I've been ignoring the Katana Girl aspect because it's just too weird. I could see an interesting super power being to be able to digitize yourself, pass through the internet, and then reappear somewhere where there's a terminal. But what they did here was just weird.


 I think it should have been a show on it's own since it's kind of a departure within the show.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

NJChris said:


> I think it should have been a show on it's own since it's kind of a departure within the show.


So far.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The fact that it requires the sword makes me wonder if it is actually a power.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Dan203 said:


> The fact that it requires the sword makes me wonder if it is actually a power.


Does it actually require the sword? Or is the sword only a Dumbo feather?

Alternatively, maybe entering cyberspace is a power both father and daughter have, but in order to enter the one cyberspace you want, out of the infinite number of possible cyberspaces, it is helpful to have some sort of key that is configured to open a specific one.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

john4200 said:


> Does it actually require the sword? Or is the sword only a Dumbo feather?
> 
> Alternatively, maybe entering cyberspace is a power both father and daughter have, but in order to enter the one cyberspace you want, out of the infinite number of possible cyberspaces, it is helpful to have some sort of key that is configured to open a specific one.


You are already giving it more thought than the writers have or will, I fear.

I'm stuck on the timey-wimey aspect of it. Ren knew Katana Girl as a character in the game, and her origin story (finding the katana under the floorboards, etc) before the first time she entered the game. How does that work, exactly? I'm reminded of the first episodes of the first series, where Hiro followed along with the comic books written by Isaac the precog junkie artist, reading about himself. Was Evernow (or whatever the game is called) coded by a precog? Or is time travel involved somehow?

I'm pretty sure Katana Girl's katana is Hiro's katana - it even had the half-helix squiggle symbol on the hilt.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm in for a few more episodes - will see where it goes!


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

I liked it. Guess I'm more of a sucker. I didn't finish the final season but hopeful there have been "learnings." I guess I have faith in that.

Just being in Japan suggests that there is some kind of Hiro connection.


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## Wooper (Dec 30, 2009)

I know we all have TiVo, but did it seem even with limited commercial interruptions, there were a ton of commercials?


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Wooper said:


> I know we all have TiVo, but did it seem even with limited commercial interruptions, there were a ton of commercials?


By "limited" they meant it wasn't unlimited.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

Wooper said:


> I know we all have TiVo, but did it seem even with limited commercial interruptions, there were a ton of commercials?


Yes, I had that exact thought. Sure I zipped through all the commercials but it seemed that I had to do that just as much as a regular program.

Gerry


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

That's interesting how people's perceptions are different. I didn't know it had "limited commercial interruptions". As the show was progressing, and I'd FF through the commercials that were there, I kept thinking that it sure seemed like there were a lot less commercials than usual. Something was different and it stood out to me. Either the commercials were clumped together to make for longer stretches of the show, or there were less of them, but I noticed I didn't have to pick up the remote to FF as often.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

It seemed the same as always to me. Maybe they meant there were limited sponsors? 

Does anybody have a downloaded version? Knowing the actual runtime would tell us how "limited" the commercials were...it should be roughly 82-84 minutes with normal commercials.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I think there was a long stretch at the beginning without commercials. After that, it seemed like usual to me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

allan said:


> I think there was a long stretch at the beginning without commercials. After that, it seemed like usual to me.


The first commercial break was barely 15 minutes in. It really surprised me.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

89 minutes, 2 seconds long.


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Finally got through this on the 6th try.

Glad I stuck with it - started getting into it around the 40 minute mark.


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## LooseWiring (Jan 6, 2003)

I liked it. Not as great as season 1 of Heroes but still solid.

For Katana-girl I'm willing to bet she's not a real person and that she's just a simulacrum from her "Father's" Evo power.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

I don't remember when I quit watching Heroes, but I think I watched less than half of it (and that was back when I rarely quit a show partway in)..

I was expecting WAY more exposition on the old story/describing characters and such. I'm not saying it was _bad_ the way it was, I just expected way more introduction.

Katana-girl's "computer world" looked worse than a PS2 game, though!


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I thought this was good enough to watch a few more. I never made it past S02E01 of the first series, and I don't remember too much of the first season. Did we meet Molly back then? Should I have recognized the actress?

I'm surprised to see Zachary Levi in the villain role, based on the limited marketing I saw I expected him to be a hero. Though when they were driving away in the car at the end, he definitely seemed uncomfortable about things, so now I think he's undercover or brainwashed or something, which seems far-fetched. 

I like the high school kids and the luchador family. The katana girl stuff is just weird, definitely the worst part so far.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Molly back then was much younger and played by a child. She's grown up now and played by a different actress. I can't remember what season we met her.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

If no one objects, I'm going to ask the mods to change this to a full season thread. There doesn't seem to be enough interest to have episodic discussions.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

Turtleboy said:


> If no one objects, I'm going to ask the mods to change this to a full season thread. There doesn't seem to be enough interest to have episodic discussions.


Fine by me.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

I would like that as well.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> Molly back then was much younger and played by a child. She's grown up now and played by a different actress. I can't remember what season we met her.


She was introduced in Season 1, as part of our introduction to Matt Parkman. They never really exlained her power very well for this series. They kind of just assume you know who she is and what she can do. For anyone that didn't know.... her power is the ability to find anyone in the world just by thinking about them. In season 2 of Hereos they tried to use her for a program to locate and "bag & tag" specials.


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## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> She was introduced in Season 1, as part of our introduction to Matt Parkman. They never really exlained her power very well for this series. They kind of just assume you know who she is and what she can do. For anyone that didn't know.... her power is the ability to find anyone in the world just by thinking about them.


She was the little girl in the house, right? The one he found hidden?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yes.


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## dimented (May 21, 2003)

She could find "anyone" or just specials?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

dimented said:


> She could find "anyone" or just specials?


Anyone


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> She was introduced in Season 1, as part of our introduction to Matt Parkman. They never really exlained her power very well for this series. They kind of just assume you know who she is and what she can do. For anyone that didn't know.... her power is the ability to find anyone in the world just by thinking about them. In season 2 of Hereos they tried to use her for a program to locate and "bag & tag" specials.


I think a big part of the reason I bailed on Heroes is this unending variety of powers. I'm all for creating a world (let's say Middle Earth, or the BuffyVerse) and having things be coherent within that world's rules. But Heroes just seems like lazy writing - let's toss another power in the mix.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It's essentially a ripoff of X-Men. 

If this were the real world and humans somehow evolved powers there would likely only be one power that everyone had to a varying degree. Like that movie Looper where some people had a basic version of telekinesis where they could float a coin. Or there was this other show in the 90s where a cop came back in time and all the people from the future had the ability to slow down time. (not a lot, just enough to increase their reflexes) Those are more realistic. Although any sort of sudden change in the population like that is unlikely. Real evolution is slow and takes thousands/millions of years.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> It's essentially a ripoff of X-Men.
> 
> If this were the real world and humans somehow evolved powers there would likely only be one power that everyone had to a varying degree. Like that movie Looper where some people had a basic version of telekinesis where they could float a coin. Or there was this other show in the 90s where a cop came back in time and all the people from the future had the ability to slow down time. (not a lot, just enough to increase their reflexes) Those are more realistic. Although any sort of sudden change in the population like that is unlikely. Real evolution is slow and takes thousands/millions of years.


Yup. One thought I had that's at somewhat more realistic than the Heroes/X-Men model is, the mutants/evos all have mental powers. Maybe one is better at mind reading, another has telekinesis, and another can astral project, but it all stems from increased mental powers, in contrast to having practically any power the writers pull out their asses.

OTOH, there is a "gee-whiz/kewl" factor to having all those wildly different powers.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

As someone who is very interested in this field I would have to agree with Dan on this one. Your powers would have to come from your head and the only powers that we know to date is telepathy and telekinesis. I would wage that aliens have this capacity because they have been around way longer then us it would make sense that they would naturally have these powers cause their brains have a lot more time to develop.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I don't think any of that is really possible. Telepathy and telekinesis both still require our brains to have the ability to exert force on the physical world. That's not possible. Maybe something like the time slow down thing from that other show I mentioned (looked it up, it was called Time Trax) since that is essentially enhancing your mind to capture and process visual information more quickly. Other real possibilities would be things that already exist in nature like the ability to see in the dark, sense EM fields, detect the poles, maybe even bioluminescence. But moving objects with our minds or reading/controlling other people's thoughts require a force of influence on the physical world that's simple not possible.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I agree that the most believable evolved power would be a mind that operates faster. Possibly along with faster nerves, so you can move and respond faster as well.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

I'm really tired of the cold-blooded-killer-angry-mom-because-of-dead-child character.

They are falling back on the lazy serial killer type enemy.

And the blonde girl with the northern lights power gives off a younger Patricia Arquette (nightmare 3) vibe


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## WoLF2001 (Oct 14, 2015)

I did like hiro and ando in the original. Funny guys. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm still an episode behind but I did not expect Molly to kill herself! Yikes. 

It was a little silly how quickly Bennett turned the bad guy's daughter: "Trust us, your mom is up to no good." "OK."

Hope the teenage boy gets out of his predicament. I can't believe the Feds would really withhold life saving measures from a non-EVO, but maybe. 

Almost like with Sylar they went to far with Zachary Levi's character. He's killed maybe dozens of people in cold blood and now he's a good guy because he felt remorse and he's an Evo now? Hmm, not buying it. 

I think Ren is pretty cute! But I'm not sure how a bunch of regular joes in cosplay are going to help them break in...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Zevida said:


> It was a little silly how quickly Bennett turned the bad guy's daughter: "Trust us, your mom is up to no good." "OK."


I suspect realizing what Mom did to the man she loves played a significant role...


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect realizing what Mom did to the man she loves played a significant role...


But he knew the risks! He knew the stakes!

Lol!


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect realizing what Mom did to the man she loves played a significant role...


But she turned before that! She wouldn't have been there to see him if she hadn't already agreed to help them.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Zevida said:


> But she turned before that! She wouldn't have been there to see him if she hadn't already agreed to help them.


She was torn before that. She didn't really turn all the way until she realized what had happened to her boy toy.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Is it possible that Luke (the anti-Evo killer who's found he IS an Evo) and his wife produced an Evo child, and knew fully well their kid was an Evo?

I've noticed that in some of the flashbacks showing the boy, the kid has gloves on that don't look right for the setting, like he can't touch anything (or anyone) without there being a problem? In the boat-building scene, I don't think he had them on, but when they tried to float the boat, there the gloves were again. 

He also seemed to have the gloves on in the June 13th scenes, and that was NOT depicted as an unusually cold day.

Is it possible this could be adding fuel to the fire, the fact their kid was an Evo and it appears (to the public) that an Evo (Mohinder) was behind the kid's death?


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

gastrof said:


> Is it possible that Luke (the anti-Evo killer who's found he IS an Evo) and his wife produced an Evo child, and knew fully well their kid was an Evo?
> 
> I've noticed that in some of the flashbacks showing the boy, the kid has gloves on that don't look right for the setting, like he can't touch anything (or anyone) without there being a problem? In the boat-building scene, I don't think he had them on, but when they tried to float the boat, there the gloves were again.
> 
> ...


IIRC they established from the start that the kid was an evo and they were in Odessa for the conference because of him. I keep meaning to rewatch the first few minutes of the first episode because I think he was the floating baby on a tether.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I think I always assumed he was an Evo. But the gloves could have been a costume to emulate a hero. Like little girls wearing princess dresses.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

The coronal mass ejection coupled with a flip of the Earth's magnetic field is an interesting scenario. It's possible, though I think a week for one to reach Earth is a little unusual (it should reach it sooner). I've read that the Earth's magnetic field flips every so often, and it could happen again relatively soon. I didn't read more on it, but wondered what would happen during the flip. Would the flipping magnetic field leave a window of opportunity for solar radiation to reach Earth? I would think in mid-flip, we'd have lost a lot of protection against the charged solar particles, unless I'm not understanding something correctly.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Yeah, it lost me at the end and I wasn't really sure what they were saying. Are they planning to do something to cause it, or is it something that is coming and they are just preparing for it so they can save who they want?


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Zevida said:


> Yeah, it lost me at the end and I wasn't really sure what they were saying. Are they planning to do something to cause it, or is it something that is coming and they are just preparing for it so they can save who they want?


My impression is that this particular occurrence is natural. It does fall in line with what happens naturally to our planet. The company's plan seems to be to ride it out and then try to rebuild civilization. At least, that seems to be part of the plan (since they have a huge stockpile of seeds).


----------



## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

bobcarn said:


> My impression is that this particular occurrence is natural. It does fall in line with what happens naturally to our planet. The company's plan seems to be to ride it out and then try to rebuild civilization. At least, that seems to be part of the plan (since they have a huge stockpile of seeds).


I suspect the girl who can absorb light is going to try and absorb the energy of the solar material, Luke will absorb its energy too or maybe use his to throw up a resistant shield, the teleporter kid will maybe even move Earth away or at least teleport any stray material that manages to leak thru, the blonde girl will use whatever her power is to push away anything else that leaks thru...

Would be interesting if "Tommy" (teleporter kid) turns out to have the same abilities as Hiro, but hasn't learned the time-travel aspect yet. (Hiro at first seemed to think he could only affect time, and then found out he could teleport. This could be a flip of that.)



Spoiler



EDIT:
I've got it running with the sound turned off...planning to watch later. Good grief... Did Noah just hit shadow girl in the face with a girder?!?!?


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Which girl can absorb light?

I remember the Hiro from season one, the kind of bumbling, geeky, lovable guy. I'm less of a fan of sage, pony-tail, Neo wardrobe Hiro, but it's cool to get another character back from the old show, especially one I loved. Whatever happened to Ando?

Sad to have no more Katana Girl. I hope Ren sticks around, but he's not got much use now that Hiro is out of the game. 

Sad we lost the short sidekick guy. Extra sad his sister he was trying to save is the one who killed him. 

Hmmm, this show is kind of dark and depressing...

And really, you take something from a guy who kicked you ass and kidnapped your nephew and a priest and just drink it on his word? What an idiot.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Considering that HRG just time traveled back to fix things, do you really think we've lost anybody?


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Hiro said no stepping on butterflies!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Nice Star Wars reference:

Ren: I love you
Katana Girl: I know.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I'm liking things. It's entertaining to me 


Sent from my iPad Mini 3 using Tapatalk


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Zevida said:


> Hiro said no stepping on butterflies!


I thought that odd. He's going back to actually change the timeline. It's like "we're gonna be stomping on a LOT of butterflies!"


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

The pace seems to be going a lot faster with this one. Are they going to wrap up the story arc for the holiday break, and then start a new one for the 2nd half of the season?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> The pace seems to be going a lot faster with this one. Are they going to wrap up the story arc for the holiday break, and then start a new one for the 2nd half of the season?


There is no second half of the season. It's basically a miniseries (13 hours).


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> I thought that odd. He's going back to actually change the timeline. It's like "we're gonna be stomping on a LOT of butterflies!"


I took it to mean avoid unintended consequences. More of an incision. Only change what they went to change.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> I took it to mean avoid unintended consequences. More of an incision. Only change what they went to change.


Which, of course, misses the whole point of butterflies. Uncharacteristic of Hiro!


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

bobcarn said:


> I thought that odd. He's going back to actually change the timeline. It's like "we're gonna be stomping on a LOT of butterflies!"


That's not what I took away from that. I thought they were going back so HRG can see what happened, not so they can change it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which, of course, misses the whole point of butterflies. Uncharacteristic of Hiro!


I don't think I get your point. More?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> I don't think I get your point. More?


The Butterfly Effect says that anything you do, no matter how trivial it may seem, will have cascading ramifications that can result in massive changes.

Taken from the Ray Bradbury short story "A Sound of Thunder," in which somebody time travels to the time of the dinosaurs and steps on a butterfly, and as a result the present changes.


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

Zevida said:


> That's not what I took away from that. I thought they were going back so HRG can see what happened, not so they can change it.


Hiro specifically said "this is a wrong the must be righted", so I assume that they are changing something.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The Butterfly Effect says that anything you do, no matter how trivial it may seem, will have cascading ramifications that can result in massive changes. Taken from the Ray Bradbury short story "A Sound of Thunder," in which somebody time travels to the time of the dinosaurs and steps on a butterfly, and as a result the present changes.


Yes. And part of it was unintended consequences. Of course if you are going back to kill Hitler, you intend to change that part. The butterfly killing is more about small changes that do not seem to affect the overall scheme affecting the overall scheme. So, I am still not getting your point. Hiro was all in for changing certain things. He didn't want to accidentally change others.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Yes. And part of it was unintended consequences. Of course if you are going back to kill Hitler, you intend to change that part. The butterfly killing is more about small changes that do not seem to affect the overall scheme affecting the overall scheme. So, I am still not getting your point. Hiro was all in for changing certain things. He didn't want to accidentally change others.


But the whole point of the Butterfly Effect is that by changing one thing, you set in motion a cascading series of changes. There's no such thing as "only changing what you want to change."


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

bryhamm said:


> Hiro specifically said "this is a wrong the must be righted", so I assume that they are changing something.


I interpreted that to mean they need to go back and figure out what happened so they can come back to present time and hold people accountable. But that Hiro explicitly does not want to change anything in the past, it's just a fact-finding mission.

I guess we'll find out on Thursday!


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Hiro didn't want to go back at all, but then thought - by imprisoning him and using his power for their purposes, they essentially changed the "intended" path of time to suit their needs, so he's ok with going back to change things to what they were SUPPOSED to be if they hadn't kidnapped him. But that's it.


----------



## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

I actually laughed at the Leeroy Jenkins reference.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Maui said:


> I actually laughed at the Leeroy Jenkins reference.


That was the second time they did it. Ren did it in the first episode too.


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

So is that the end of Katana Girl?  Hope not...


----------



## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> That was the second time they did it. Ren did it in the first episode too.


Forgot about that. I still chuckle though and the majority of watchers probably have no idea what that is all about.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But the whole point of the Butterfly Effect is that by changing one thing, you set in motion a cascading series of changes. There's no such thing as "only changing what you want to change."


But they are trying. Very simply, Hiro meant to be careful of unintended consequences. If you don't want to make any changes, you don't time travel.

And I don't agree with the premise. There are literally millions of events that happen around you every second that don't change the world, Ray Bradbury be damned. I go back ten years and sweep some dirt off my front step that was replaced a day later anyway. What the heck changed.

Not everything is linked. The Butterfly Effect is an exaggerated scenario and is pretty much complete nonsense.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

loubob57 said:


> So is that the end of Katana Girl?  Hope not...


Doubt it. She wasn't real so she can be created again. And again. And again. I'd rather see her gone as the invincible character is what helped kill the original run of Heroes.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> But they are trying. Very simply, Hiro meant to be careful of unintended consequences. If you don't want to make any changes, you don't time travel.
> 
> And I don't agree with the premise. There are literally millions of events that happen around you every second that don't change the world, Ray Bradbury be damned. I go back ten years and sweep some dirt off my front step that was replaced a day later anyway. What the heck changed.
> 
> Not everything is linked. The Butterfly Effect is an exaggerated scenario and is pretty much complete nonsense.


I recently rewatched the original run and they did something similar in the last season. They had this whole bit about how he needed to go back and right a wrong without stepping on any butterflies. Then he goes back and stops himself from bumping in to Ando and spilling his drink on Hiro's sister. When he returns Ando and his Sister are in a long time relationship on the verge of marriage, yet nothing else seems to have changed including the months long journey they took to the US in season 1. Not sure how/why Ando would leave on such a journey if he had a serious girlfriend.

Time travel is almost always poorly done in movies/TV. It's such a complex subject that most entertainment approaches very cavalierly.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I recently rewatched the original run and they did something similar in the last season. They had this whole bit about how he needed to go back and right a wrong without stepping on any butterflies. Then he goes back and stops himself from bumping in to Ando and spilling his drink on Hiro's sister. When he returns Ando and his Sister are in a long time relationship on the verge of marriage, yet nothing else seems to have changed including the months long journey they took to the US in season 1. Not sure how/why Ando would leave on such a journey if he had a serious girlfriend. Time travel is almost always poorly done in movies/TV. It's such a complex subject that most entertainment approaches very cavalierly.


As do most people. Think about how silly it is if you travel in time and wind up in the same place as you started. The sofa I am sitting on right now is millions of miles from where it was six months ago.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> As do most people. Think about how silly it is if you travel in time and wind up in the same place as you started. The sofa I am sitting on right now is millions of miles from where it was six months ago.


Yeah, a time traveler would have to travel in space too, otherwise they might end up in outer space.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

allan said:


> Yeah, a time traveler would have to travel in space too, otherwise they might end up in outer space.


Unless you're the Master of Time & Space.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

teknikel said:


> Unless you're the Master of Time & Space.


You rang?


----------



## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

So I'm finally caught up, and I'm wondering if Noah will recognize there's a simple solution to the problem of June 13th. If he the noticed dampening effect that Phoebe put out, and he can connect the dots, he can trace it back to where Phoebe is and put a bullet in her brain. Of course Hiro might not allow that.

I sussed on to the identity of the twins as soon as the babies were introduced. 

THis is almost as good as the first season.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The whole thing with Clair dying is stupid. I realize the actress is on another show, but they should have just written her out of this one rather then coming up with this convultued way of killing her off. They haven't mentioned Sylar or Peter once and that's been fine. They could have done the same thing with Clair. Instead they expect us to believe that a character who's been shot, stabbed, and burned alive without so much as a scratch died of cardiac arrest while giving birth?  Also the way Noah cried over the body without even uncovering her face or checking the magic spot on the back of her head was ridiculous. Again I understand why they did it that way, it just seemed like a stupid scene becuase of the way they had to do it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, with all the fuss they've made over Claire I assumed she'd be showing up eventually (and I suppose she still could). Very strangely handled.

I suppose they were giving Noah motivation for his trip back, but how hard can that be to work out?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I'm guessing that they developed the story where Claire's twins save the world first, then worried about the overall logistics later, and this was the best they could come up with.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Look kiddies, it's Luke and Leia to save the world!


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> The whole thing with Clair dying is stupid. I realize the actress is on another show, but they should have just written her out of this one rather then coming up with this convultued way of killing her off. They haven't mentioned Sylar or Peter once and that's been fine. They could have done the same thing with Clair. Instead they expect us to believe that a character who's been shot, stabbed, and burned alive without so much as a scratch died of cardiac arrest while giving birth?  Also the way Noah cried over the body without even uncovering her face or checking the magic spot on the back of her head was ridiculous. Again I understand why they did it that way, it just seemed like a stupid scene becuase of the way they had to do it.


This exactly ...


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

I'm sure it's very confidence-building for Hayden Panettiere to know that she can be replaced by a mannequin wearing a blonde wig.

(I know, I know, she's probably not even paying attention to this.)


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

trainman said:


> I'm sure it's very confidence-building for Hayden Panettiere to know that she can be replaced by a mannequin wearing a blonde wig.


I'm pretty sure that was common knowledge well before this.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

It's kind of weird that Noah didn't even lift the blanket. They could have filmed it without showing the body.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Very good summary that agrees with my current feelings on Heroes Reborn
I Can Sum Up Everything Wrong With Heroes Reborn in a Single Line of Dialogue I totally agree with them ESPECIALLY on that line, I cringed when I heard it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> Very good summary that agrees with my current feelings on Heroes Reborn I Can Sum Up Everything Wrong With Heroes Reborn in a Single Line of Dialogue I totally agree with them ESPECIALLY on that line, I cringed when I heard it.


You and that summary missed that Hiro is afraid of changing the timeline too much. Did you miss when he tried a bunch of different paths and said they were all worse? What story of any kind can you tell if you have infinite time and just keep adjusting? And what change do you create?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> You and that summary missed that Hiro is afraid of changing the timeline too much. Did you miss when he tried a bunch of different paths and said they were all worse? What story of any kind can you tell if you have infinite time and just keep adjusting? And what change do you create?


I don't agree that we both missed it, that still doesn't explain why "we only have three hours" was uttered, you're a time traveler, you have as much time as you need. Add to that the fact that they're pretty much wiping out all the butterflies


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> Add to that the fact that they're pretty much wiping out all the butterflies


That's the point I tried to make last week...Hiro (and by extension, the writers) clearly doesn't understand the Butterfly Effect. And he should (and they should as well), because he is supposed to be the kind of sci-fi geek who KNOWS this stuff.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> You and that summary missed that Hiro is afraid of changing the timeline too much. Did you miss when he tried a bunch of different paths and said they were all worse? What story of any kind can you tell if you have infinite time and just keep adjusting? And what change do you create?


If he can do that why go back to the summit at all? Couldn't he have done that before they ever even went back and saw that it was a bad idea? It was a stupid plot device to get them into the past to save the babies but not prevent the explosion.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> If he can do that why go back to the summit at all? Couldn't he have done that before they ever even went back and saw that it was a bad idea? It was a stupid plot device to get them into the past to save the babies but not prevent the explosion.


But the babies were already saved because they went back. It's the time travel paradox.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> You and that summary missed that Hiro is afraid of changing the timeline too much. Did you miss when he tried a bunch of different paths and said they were all worse?


The summary didn't miss that.

"Heroes Reborn has improved a little bit in that Hiro claims, a la Doctor Who, that some past events cant be changed without making things worseand at least he seems to pop into alternate timelines to check em out."


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's the point I tried to make last week...Hiro (and by extension, the writers) clearly doesn't understand the Butterfly Effect. And he should (and they should as well), because he is supposed to be the kind of sci-fi geek who KNOWS this stuff.


Sigh. Hiro, in this episode, actually compared time lines to not make it worse. He understands the butterfly effect better than you do. He knows changes bring change, he was trying to find the best possible change, if it existed at all. The actual butterfly they did IS the real timeline to save the world. As witnessed by the fact that the twins are grown and are the potential saviors.

You misunderstand the butterfly effect. The real one, not the one created by a science fiction writer to tell a cool story. Actions have consequences. Things that may seem unrelated can be but in reality they are related. Hiro DELIBERATELY went back to change things, looked at the different possible "nows" and picked the best one.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> If he can do that why go back to the summit at all? Couldn't he have done that before they ever even went back and saw that it was a bad idea? It was a stupid plot device to get them into the past to save the babies but not prevent the explosion.


How does he do that without doing it. Hiro at the time was trapped in a video game. He had no idea what current time Hiro did. He had to go back to make what happened happen and he didn't know what the other consequences were. He tried to do better but found he couldn't. How does he do that without going back? He doesn't know what happened. And, for that matter, it wouldn't have if he didn't go back. No twins. Your "stupid plot device" is the actual story. Is it stupid because he couldn't prevent the explosion without making it worse? So every time a person has to make the best possible choice but it is not perfect, it is stupid?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

busyba said:


> The summary didn't miss that. "Heroes Reborn has improved a little bit in that Hiro claims, a la Doctor Who, that some past events can&#146;t be changed without making things worse&#151;and at least he seems to pop into alternate timelines to check &#145;em out."


Of course, that is NOT what doctor who says. He says some things are fixed in time and cannot be changed.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Is it stupid because he couldn't prevent the explosion without making it worse?


We (and he) will never know, because he never stopped the explosion.


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> We (and he) will never know, because he never stopped the explosion.


My take on him popping in and out real quickly when he was in between the 2 clones was that he was doing just that, checking other time lines for the ramifications of his possible actions. I assume that in several time lines he tried to stop the bombing and regardless of how many bombs were stopped, even if it was all of them, all those time lines were worse off than the current one.

Regardless, it's always stupid when a time traveller says "we haven't got enough time." Hiro is a time traveller and controller, he literally has infinite time to do anything he wants.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

SeanC said:


> My take on him popping in and out real quickly when he was in between the 2 clones was that he was doing just that, checking other time lines for the ramifications of his possible actions. I assume that in several time lines he tried to stop the bombing and regardless of how many bombs were stopped, even if it was all of them, all those time lines were worse off than the current one.


The way they showed it, he just kept checking the same timeline, since he never did anything between trips.

I'm sure they meant something like what you said. Or maybe they thought that him just thinking about doing something was enough. Regardless, what they showed was as much gibberish as Hiro's explanation of the Butterfly Effect.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

SeanC said:


> My take on him popping in and out real quickly when he was in between the 2 clones was that he was doing just that, checking other time lines for the ramifications of his possible actions. I assume that in several time lines he tried to stop the bombing and regardless of how many bombs were stopped, even if it was all of them, all those time lines were worse off than the current one.
> .


That's what I thought too.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

What exactly did he do to "check" the other timelines. He changed something, went to the future to see if things were better or worse, than when he found out it was worse, he went back and stopped his other self from changing things?

-smak-


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## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

smak said:


> What exactly did he do to "check" the other timelines. He changed something, went to the future to see if things were better or worse, than when he found out it was worse, he went back and stopped his other self from changing things?
> 
> -smak-


Well, we don't know, other than Hiro's statement that he did check and no matter what he did it only got worse.

On each of those pops he could have gone anywhere and done anything, back a couple days, make a change, forward a week, year, decade, whatever. Each pop for Hiro could have taken months or years to resolve. But for whatever reason they decided they didn't need to tell us what he did to determine that there were no better changes he could make.

Believe me I agree that narratively this is very weak, but it made sense in the context of the show and where Hiro is as a character.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

SeanC said:


> On each of those pops he could have gone anywhere and done anything, back a couple days, make a change, forward a week, year, decade, whatever. Each pop for Hiro could have taken months or years to resolve. But for whatever reason they decided they didn't need to tell us what he did to determine that there were no better changes he could make.
> 
> Believe me I agree that narratively this is very weak, but it made sense in the context of the show and where Hiro is as a character.


Beyond weak...it goes back to my original complaint. If he went back a couple of days and made a change, then the present he left would no longer exist. And due to the Butterfly Effect, he would never be able to recreate it exactly.

But never mind. I've made my point, nobody else accepts it, I'm used to being the only person who's right.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

It's the slushy effect from the original show. If his friend never spilled the drink on his soon to be girlfriend then there were never going to get married. it's small changes like that could have sever consequences. in this case it was good but in other case it could turn out horrible wrong. As a time traveler I hear by rules of the butterfly effect.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Beyond weak...it goes back to my original complaint. If he went back a couple of days and made a change, then the present he left would no longer exist. And due to the Butterfly Effect, he would never be able to recreate it exactly. But never mind. I've made my point, nobody else accepts it, I'm used to being the only person who's right.


Damn it. He never said that. Never. Never. Never. He knew they were going to try to change things. He wanted to make sure they didn't change them for the worse. And then he did exactly that when he did the pop in and out thing. He was consistent and not gibberish.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I'm not watching this season, but for some reason am reading this thread. In the linked article, when I saw something about one of Claire's two other twins, I got really glad that I skipped this.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I'm not watching this season, but for some reason am reading this thread. In the linked article, when I saw something about one of Claire's two other twins, I got really glad that I skipped this.


It's fine. Despite the moaning here.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I'm not watching this season, but for some reason am reading this thread. In the linked article, when I saw something about one of Claire's two other twins, I got really glad that I skipped this.


She gave birth.


----------



## UTV2TiVo (Feb 2, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> It's kind of weird that Noah didn't even lift the blanket. They could have filmed it without showing the body.


Exactly! I can understand why they can't show her face. But at least show HIM looking at it and checking the back of her head.
Either they have a trick up their sleeve regarding that scene (or lack thereof) or the writing is really weak. Ummm, unfortunately it is likely the latter.
I mean they even had Noah ask the question about the back of her head but when he sees her body he does not check himself? Come on!


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

UTV2TiVo said:


> I mean they even had Noah ask the question about the back of her head but when he sees her body he does not check himself? Come on!


I really don't mind this show and in fact enjoy it but this bothered me more than anything. Why not just give the reset button a try? Did I miss something?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

The scene with Claire was just odd. A shot of Noah's face while he pulls back the sheet is all they needed as they couldn't actually use the real actress.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> The scene with Claire was just odd. A shot of Noah's face while he pulls back the sheet is all they needed as they couldn't actually use the real actress.


Yeah, it's weird that they set it up so clearly and then...didn't. It's almost as if the guy who wrote the first scene and the guy who wrote the second scene aren't speaking.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, it's weird that they set it up so clearly and then...didn't. It's almost as if the guy who wrote the first scene and the guy who wrote the second scene aren't speaking.


It is weird beyond that glitch in the script. Who goes to see a loved ones body and doesn't look at it unless the death was particularly disfiguring?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> It is weird beyond that glitch in the script. Who goes to see a loved ones body and doesn't look at it unless the death was particularly disfiguring?


Sure, but weirder still that they went to the trouble of setting it up, and then didn't do it. So they obviously knew that it was something they _should _do.

I guess the only logical explanation is that there was an Evo nearby whose power is to make people do stupid things.

Hey, now that I think of it, that explains a lot! I bet that guy just roams from show to show...


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

teknikel said:


> unless you're the master of time & space.


q?


----------



## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Could Claire not be healing herself because of the Evo that blocks powers using her power in the same building?


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

No cause Hiro used his powers to take the babies back in time from inside the hospital. They're just killing Claire off in a really dumb way because the actress has moved on, even though it was well established in the first series she was essentially immortal. (the guy Hiro met in the past with the same power was still alive and young hundreds of years later)


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Sure, but weirder still that they went to the trouble of setting it up, and then didn't do it. So they obviously knew that it was something they _should _do.
> 
> I guess the only logical explanation is that there was an Evo nearby whose power is to make people do stupid things.
> 
> Hey, now that I think of it, that explains a lot! I bet that guy just roams from show to show...


I think you found someone's nemesis.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> No cause Hiro used his powers to take the babies back in time from inside the hospital. They're just killing Claire off in a really dumb way because the actress has moved on, even though it was well established in the first series she was essentially immortal. (the guy Hiro met in the past with the same power was still alive and young hundreds of years later)


Not necessarily dumb, actually. Pregnancy has a tendency to change women's body chemistry. Why wouldn't it change hers? We know she could "die" with something stuck in the back of her neck. Why couldn't she die some other way we haven't seen?

I have an issue with someone calling a made up situation dumb just because it is made up. The rules are their rules and can be explored and even changed. No one ever said she would be immortal through childbirth, so that is fair game.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Not necessarily dumb, actually. Pregnancy has a tendency to change women's body chemistry. Why wouldn't it change hers? We know she could "die" with something stuck in the back of her neck. Why couldn't she die some other way we haven't seen?
> 
> I have an issue with someone calling a made up situation dumb just because it is made up. The rules are their rules and can be explored and even changed. No one ever said she would be immortal through childbirth, so that is fair game.


I guess, but in one of the previous seasons they even used her blood, via transfusion, to bring back Noah from the dead. (he got shot in the eye/brain) And when Sylar took her powers, his being the ability to understand other people's abilities, he specifically said to her that she couldn't die, "and I guess now neither can I". So saying she died of cardiac arrest during child birth without any more explanation is, at the very least, lazy writing.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I guess, but in one of the previous seasons they even used her blood, via transfusion, to bring back Noah from the dead. (he got shot in the eye/brain) And when Sylar took her powers, his being the ability to understand other people's abilities, he specifically said to her that she couldn't die, "and I guess now neither can I". So saying she died of cardiac arrest during child birth without any more explanation is, at the very least, lazy writing.


I don't find it particularly lazy, actually. They found an escape clause. One no one considered before when it came to Claire. Everyone assumed she was immortal and yet giving life, transferring life and powers to two children did her in. It works. If it works, it is not lazy.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Test said:


> Could Claire not be healing herself because of the Evo that blocks powers using her power in the same building?


I got the impression was that she could only come back if her healing powers were active when she died. She died from complications giving birth while the power blocking shroud was over the hospital, so when the shroud was lifted she was truly dead.


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

It just seems odd they weren't explicit about it. They even lampshaded the question. Either they didn't answer it yet because there's something more to result, or they didn't answer it yet because they're being bad writers. I hope for the former, but given this show's history, I don't hope that hard.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I was getting very impatient before this episode. Everything was very disjointed and nothing seemed to be coming together. But now with the question of who the kids are who are supposed to save the world answered it seems much more cohesive. And with the threat revealed. I'll make it until the end of the season now.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

You know what would be more realistic. If you throw in some aliens in the mix now that would make for a great tv show.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Speaking of the "threat", why would the poles reversing cause the earth to get scorched? The poles have reversed a bunch of times over the course of it's life. AFAIK none lf those have been the cause of a mass extinction.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Speaking of the "threat", why would the poles reversing cause the earth to get scorched? The poles have reversed a bunch of times over the course of it's life. AFAIK none of those have been the cause of a mass extinction.


It's kind of like that movie The Day After Tomorrow, where they take something with actual scientific basis and hyper-exaggerate it beyond the point of absurdity. In this case, yes the poles flip from time to time, and yes during that period the magnetic fields weaken, allowing more radiation to reach the Earth. But A) the flip takes place over a period of centuries if not millennia; and B) the amount of extra radiation isn't enough to cause destruction, much less extinctions. If I understand correctly, just a statistical increase in cancer rates.

But of course an uptick in colon cancer over a period of centuries wouldn't make for a very good sci-fi story...


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Speaking of the "threat", why would the poles reversing cause the earth to get scorched? The poles have reversed a bunch of times over the course of it's life. AFAIK none lf those have been the cause of a mass extinction.


They said it was the coincidence of a pole reversal simultaneously with an unprecedentedly large coronal mass ejection. Which is a hell of a lot of coincidence.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> They said it was the coincidence of a pole reversal simultaneously with an unprecedentedly large coronal mass ejection. Which is a hell of a lot of coincidence.


Especially since neither can be predicted with any precision. Or, really, at all.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Especially since neither can be predicted with any precision. Or, really, at all.


Was it predicted scientifically or by a prophetic evo?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

busyba said:


> Was it predicted scientifically or by a prophetic evo?


Not sure but I'd assume Evo since there doesn't seem to be any mention of it except among a select few. And they keep saying that "they" don't know what is coming.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I thought Dr. Suresh figured it all out and it was in that giant report he was going to speak about at the event?


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I thought Dr. Suresh figured it all out and it was in that giant report he was going to speak about at the event?


Yes, but we don't know his research methods or sources.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I feel like I don't quite understand why June 13 was such a turning point in the "Us vs Them" attitude of the general populace against Evos. It was a peaceful gathering of Evos, and the casualties were mostly Evos. Sure the attack was pinned on Mohinder, framed as a radical Evo, but that notwithstanding it feels like it'd be the equivalent of turning on New Yorkers and blaming them in the aftermath of 9/11. Weren't Evos the victims of 6/13? It'd be different if it were a gathering of Anti-Evo Normals that Mohinder was blamed for bombing - that, I could see tipping the scales a bit more.


----------



## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

I didn't realize that the WBC had protesters at the Odessa Summit.

I noticed the "God Hates Evos" sign.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

danterner said:


> I feel like I don't quite understand why June 13 was such a turning point in the "Us vs Them" attitude of the general populace against Evos. It was a peaceful gathering of Evos, and the casualties were mostly Evos. Sure the attack was pinned on Mohinder, framed as a radical Evo, but that notwithstanding it feels like it'd be the equivalent of turning on New Yorkers and blaming them in the aftermath of 9/11. Weren't Evos the victims of 6/13? It'd be different if it were a gathering of Anti-Evo Normals that Mohinder was blamed for bombing - that, I could see tipping the scales a bit more.


After 9/11, people attacked Sikhs and Hindus, blaming them for it.

Don't look for logic.

(and I'm not even going to mention Iraq....)


----------



## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

danterner said:


> I feel like I don't quite understand why June 13 was such a turning point in the "Us vs Them" attitude of the general populace against Evos. It was a peaceful gathering of Evos, and the casualties were mostly Evos. Sure the attack was pinned on Mohinder, framed as a radical Evo, but that notwithstanding it feels like it'd be the equivalent of turning on New Yorkers and blaming them in the aftermath of 9/11. Weren't Evos the victims of 6/13? It'd be different if it were a gathering of Anti-Evo Normals that Mohinder was blamed for bombing - that, I could see tipping the scales a bit more.


I've had the same difficulty. It seems to me that the attack would cause sympathy for the evos, not greater hostility.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Because it looked like an Evo attack, not an attack by norms against Evos. Reinforced by the sponsor of the event immediately. 

It is a common theme in comics and superhero movies, etc. With great power comes great danger.


----------



## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

She probably got killed her almost instantaneously when she transfer her powers to the babies. Yes they should of shown his reaction or at least lift the sheets but what ever i'm sure they have their reasons. 

Can't wait for tonights episodes. I can only hope the real hero(s) are watching and taking notes on how to save the world.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ufo4sale said:


> She probably got killed her almost instantaneously when she transfer her powers to the babies. Yes they should of shown his reaction or at least lift the sheets but what ever i'm sure they have their reasons.
> 
> Can't wait for tonights episodes. I can only hope the real hero(s) are watching and taking notes on how to save the world.


Since when do they transfer their powers to their children? Angela Patrelli has powers and so did both of her sons. And Clair's parents both had powers too. Saying she transferred her powers to her kids at birth breaks previous cannon.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Since when do they transfer their powers to their children? Angela Patrelli has powers and so did both of her sons. And Clair's parents both had powers too. Saying she transferred her powers to her kids at birth breaks previous cannon.


They didn't say that, they said the boy can take the powers away from others when he was born, he just managed to take Claire's healing, thus her dying..and then when Hiro was holding him he took Hiro's power.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> They didn't say that, they said the boy can take the powers away from others when he was born, he just managed to take Claire's healing, thus her dying..and then when Hiro was holding him he took Hiro's power.


Bear in mind that Dan said that before tonight's episode.

They did a good job of explaining Claire's death, although not of explaining which Evo's power stopped Bennet from checking on her...


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah they seemed to have answered all of my complaints in tonights episode. Doh!


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah they seemed to have answered all of my complaints in tonights episode. Doh!


Weelllll....... except for the fact that Angela made quite a leap when you consider that Peter's power was to copy other's powers, not steal them.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Weelllll....... except for the fact that Angela made quite a leap when you consider that Peter's power was to copy other's powers, not steal them.


True, but except for the one-power limit, the kid's power is just like Arthur's.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah Arthur's power was to steal others. In fact he killed the only other imortal on the show by doing just that. So they explained to my satisfaction. 

Kind of mad at myself for not seeing that angle. I knew Nathan was Claire's father and that the kids had powers. 

Although one hole in the story.... They specifically took them back in time because they said their powers wouldn't manifest until 15, so it's a little weird that a new born baby sapped Mom's power. Although they did have Matt's kid get his power as a baby in the original. And there have been other kids, younger then 15, with powers. (Mica)


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Although one hole in the story.... They specifically took them back in time because they said their powers wouldn't manifest until 15, so it's a little weird that a new born baby sapped Mom's power. Although they did have Matt's kid get his power as a baby in the original. And there have been other kids, younger then 15, with powers. (Mica)


They were just guessing, based solely on the fact that Claire's power didn't manifest until 15. Clearly, they guessed incorrectly.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

What is Claire's daughter's power? 

-smak-


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

smak said:


> What is Claire's daughter's power?
> 
> -smak-


She seems to have some kind of ability to exert control over nature. In earlier episodes we saw her make grass grow, IIRC. She also created a waterspout to make Chuck fly out of the lake when he tried to drown himself. In the most recent episode we saw her herding some kind of swarm of flying insects (was it butterflies?).

But we only have little clues so far, nothing explicit.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm glad they explained everything. It's almost like they actually have a plan.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

allan said:


> True, but except for the one-power limit, the kid's power is just like Arthur's.


D'oh, I forgot about Arthur's specific abilities.

But in my defense, Heroes had gotten pretty sucky by that time.

Still, even though Arthur stole Peter's power, he got it back (more or less) with that formula injections.
In theory, Hiro could have done something similar.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah Arthur's power was to steal others. In fact he killed the only other imortal on the show by doing just that. So they explained to my satisfaction. Kind of mad at myself for not seeing that angle. I knew Nathan was Claire's father and that the kids had powers. Although one hole in the story.... They specifically took them back in time because they said their powers wouldn't manifest until 15, so it's a little weird that a new born baby sapped Mom's power. Although they did have Matt's kid get his power as a baby in the original. And there have been other kids, younger then 15, with powers. (Mica)


Manifest, control. Whatever. You want a newborn to save the world?

Besides, they didn't realize his power was working until they were back in time.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Although one hole in the story.... They specifically took them back in time because they said their powers wouldn't manifest until 15, so it's a little weird that a new born baby sapped Mom's power. Although they did have Matt's kid get his power as a baby in the original. And there have been other kids, younger then 15, with powers. (Mica)


I think another hole was that they needed to keep baby Nathan away from his sister because he would take her power, yet he didn't take Penny Guy's power when they touched.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> I think another hole was that they needed to keep baby Nathan away from his sister because he would take her power, yet he didn't take Penny Guy's power when they touched.


He was going to, but he forgot.


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## loubob57 (Mar 19, 2001)

morac said:


> I think another hole was that they needed to keep baby Nathan away from his sister because he would take her power, yet he didn't take Penny Guy's power when they touched.


Because that wasn't in the script. Duh!


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Why didn't baby Nathan take away the power in the womb, or the second they were born?


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

morac said:


> I think another hole was that they needed to keep baby Nathan away from his sister because he would take her power, yet he didn't take Penny Guy's power when they touched.


They dropped a line about him not taking another power since he was separated from his sister.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Why didn't baby Nathan take away the power in the womb, or the second they were born?


Maybe he did, but she didn't need healing until giving birth.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Did they ever mention who the father of the babies may be? I don't know if I missed it or if they glazed over it. 

I was not expecting that Hiro raised Nathan. Really sucks they took his memory away. Also, it made zero sense that Hiro didn't just go with them. Why did he have to stay behind exactly? Does Nathan have a two passenger limit on his powers? 

We also have not yet had HRG tell the Haitian to kill him, or resolved that. I wonder if we will...

I'm still interesting but it's compellingly told, but it's got more holes than swiss cheese.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Zevida said:


> Did they ever mention who the father of the babies may be? I don't know if I missed it or if they glazed over it.
> 
> I was not expecting that Hiro raised Nathan. Really sucks they took his memory away. Also, it made zero sense that Hiro didn't just go with them. Why did he have to stay behind exactly? Does Nathan have a two passenger limit on his powers?
> 
> ...


Nothing that we had known to have taken place in the year since the bombing necessarily happened again in quite the same way anymore from the moment HRG shot the Renautus lady, stepping on the butterfly and altering history.

Two major examples of this is the fact that the Renautus lady needs a cane to walk and the fact that HRG's little sidekick from the first several episodes is a bad guy now.

I do agree though that there was no reason that Hiro had to stay behind and face the clone troopers, other than the fact that the writers no longer had any need for him.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

btw, I hope I'm not the only person hoping that Chuck's wife ends up dying in a spectacularly painful way really soon...


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Zevida said:


> Did they ever mention who the father of the babies may be? I don't know if I missed it or if they glazed over it.
> 
> I was not expecting that Hiro raised Nathan. Really sucks they took his memory away. Also, it made zero sense that Hiro didn't just go with them. Why did he have to stay behind exactly? Does Nathan have a two passenger limit on his powers?
> 
> ...


To protect the future it had to be done. He and his sister are the only hope for the future. There the best chance we have against the alien.... I mean solar flares.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

So everything we saw up until they time travelled is now a bunch of things that never actually happened right? The original show went to #$%^ when Hiro started going into the past and the same thing is happening here.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> So everything we saw up until they time travelled is now a bunch of things that never actually happened right?


I wouldn't go that far. But not everything necessarily plays out exactly the same way it did the first time.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

GDG76 said:


> So everything we saw up until they time travelled is now a bunch of things that never actually happened right? The original show went to #$%^ when Hiro started going into the past and the same thing is happening here.


That's probably the reason they stripped him of his power, and (presumably) whacked him - replacing him with someone who can only use their power sparingly - when the script really, really demands it.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

busyba said:


> I wouldn't go that far. But not everything necessarily plays out exactly the same way it did the first time.


You can either do the "whatever happened, happened" route that Lost did with backwards time travel or not use it at all IMO. And I thought that we were seeing that here given the way things played out (the kid being stripped of his memories, babies being taken back). But then the guy who is looking for his sister was now bad, so what we saw for the first 8 episodes didn't really happen.

If Katana Girl is back in any way now, it really falls apart since she had to die to free Hiro in the first place.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> You can either do the "whatever happened, happened" route that Lost did with backwards time travel or not use it at all IMO. And I thought that we were seeing that here given the way things played out (the kid being stripped of his memories, babies being taken back). But then the guy who is looking for his sister was now bad, so what we saw for the first 8 episodes didn't really happen. If Katana Girl is back in any way now, it really falls apart since she had to die to free Hiro in the first place.


 We actually don't know if that is changed or not. We saw what happened after the explosion in the latest episode. He could've been playing or not. Besides, that doesn't negate everything.

As for katana girl. She was a program. She can be remade. She was created in the first place. The original girl is long dead.

Oh. And the original show lost its way not with Hiro time traveling but that they didn't reset the cast and story as originally planned. They had to jury rig stories to fit the characters staying. And the circus storyline had nothing to do with Hiro.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Fall finale next week? Aren't there only 12 or 13 episodes? They are going to make us wait until next year to see the last 2-3? 

Not happy psycho mass murderer chick is still out there. 

I found it very amusing HRG told Malina she's safe now when about five minutes ago he lost her twin brother to the bad guys.


----------



## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

Zevida said:


> Fall finale next week? Aren't there only 12 or 13 episodes? They are going to make us wait until next year to see the last 2-3?


Yep, 3 episodes scheduled in January.


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Uuuuggghhhhh!!!


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

realityboy said:


> Yep, 3 episodes scheduled in January.





Zevida said:


> Uuuuggghhhhh!!!


Agreed, that's just DUMB... split the season in half or just do them in one swoop, splitting and then 3 upon return is just not the way to go.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I get the holidays are coming up and most shows go on hiatus, but it makes no sense to do that with a limited series. If they were certain that no one would be watching, they should have just waited until January to start it.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Or started later so they could split it up at the holidays and be more balanced.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Yes, either do it all in one shot or split it more evenly. They should have split after the first half of the time travel two-parter and that would have been a nice cliffhanger and then you have five more episodes. Three is just dumb. Networks are dumb. The traditional TV model is dumb.


----------



## rhuntington3 (May 1, 2001)

Come on NBC. Just finish the episodes now!


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Zevida said:


> Uuuuggghhhhh!!!


Very much agree!


----------



## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I missed the episode right after Hiro came back, just when he took them back in time to the event. It's amazing how confusing everything is when you miss just one episode. I watched the next one, and it was a bear trying to figure out what the heck was happening.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> I missed the episode right after Hiro came back, just when he took them back in time to the event. It's amazing how confusing everything is when you miss just one episode. I watched the next one, and it was a bear trying to figure out what the heck was happening.


Since everything was basically reset (as I expected/predicted), you're just as confused as everyone else.

This show is so stupid, I don't even care if they release the new stuff now or later. Doesn't seem like they learned anything from the first failure - they should have rebooted with people with a small amount of powers IMO.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> Since everything was basically reset (as I expected/predicted), you're just as confused as everyone else.


Everything is not reset. So far, the only real difference I have seen is the little bearded guy is a bad guy. Everything else seems the same to me.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Everything is not reset. So far, the only real difference I have seen is the little bearded guy is a bad guy. Everything else seems the same to me.


Another guy (the Haitian) who was dead is back alive now. And one of the main characters we were following was dead and is now alive and on the "bad" side.

Enough has changed to not know what the hell was real.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The Haitian seems to have replaced the penny guy. In the original timeline he used the Haitian to erase his memory and then killed him during a struggle. The second time he said "no, use <penny guy>" and then he ended up getting shot by psycho Mom. So that balanced out. Maybe someone who was previously a bad guy is now a good guy to balance out the bearded guy?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> Another guy (the Haitian) who was dead is back alive now. And one of the main characters we were following was dead and is now alive and on the "bad" side. Enough has changed to not know what the hell was real.


Keep telling yourself that and you will be confused. You've decided to be confused before anything happened. Ever hear of wish fulfillment?


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Keep telling yourself that and you will be confused. You've decided to be confused before anything happened. Ever hear of wish fulfillment?


You didn't refute what I said though.

Having people alive that were dead are more than "butterflies". Major things have changed by travelling back in time. I want nothing more than to be less confused.

Explain this to me: part of HRG's main motivation (which led him to time travel) was that his old friend tried to kill him and he ended up killing his old friend. Since that clearly never happened in this timeframe (even though his memories were reset after the Odessa event), major things have changed.

I am not looking to be confused but I'm not going to hand waive the fact that most of what we were shown happen up until now has been changed in major ways. It cheapens the investment in the first half of the season.

This happens in every time travel show(other than Lost, where it actually made some sense) and we still have someone who can time travel in this show. It ruined the first series and it happened here as well IMO. I have no idea of what actually happened in the present timeline. Even if there weren't major changes, how would we know? It's a major reset button that allows them to get away with anything and cheapens anything that actually happens.

But I do hope you enjoy it. I was willing to give it another chance, but doubt I will check it out when it comes back again. I was hoping they could reclaim some of the first season magic and restart from there but that's not the case for me.


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> You didn't refute what I said though.
> 
> Having people alive that were dead are more than "butterflies". Major things have changed by travelling back in time. I want nothing more than to be less confused.
> 
> ...


If you don't want to be a little confused by time travel, just stop watching. For good or bad, the writers have decided that the time travel components give them the ability to reset some things (whether as a last minute choice or by design) and introduce some amount of intentional confusion for the viewer.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

His main motivation was to find out what happened to Claire, not the Haitian. The Haitian who still wiped his memory. 

Sorry it is too complicated for you to follow. Sometimes people just don't connect. I still say you didn't want to connect as you boasted in your post. You decided nothing was real before anything happened and now think a few details changing proves you right. 

Oh, and in a superhero story, like a soap opera, nobody is dead until they are so dead the story ends. If the genre isn't your cup of tea, it isn't.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> His main motivation was to find out what happened to Claire, not the Haitian. The Haitian who still wiped his memory.
> 
> Sorry it is too complicated for you to follow. Sometimes people just don't connect. I still say you didn't want to connect as you boasted in your post. You decided nothing was real before anything happened and now think a few details changing proves you right.
> 
> Oh, and in a superhero story, like a soap opera, nobody is dead until they are so dead the story ends. If the genre isn't your cup of tea, it isn't.


Huh? I thought the Penny Guy now was the one who wiped his memory in this timeline. So from the time HRG visited the Haitian (if he even did), he wouldn't have killed him and everything would have changed (maybe they would have become allies). That makes a little bit of sense but clearly not how you see it. And what was once a big impact scene in the first half of the season never even happened.

It changes everything yet we've only been shown bits and pieces of what's changed. It's not too complicated to follow, they just haven't explained it well and once again, everything that happened in the first half of the season is in question outside of vague major plot points.

I love superhero movies/shows and even time travel aspects of these shows, but if you use always are using it to change things, it really lessens the impact major developments have. The show was doing ok before Hiro came back IMO.


----------



## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

GDG76 said:


> Huh? I thought the Penny Guy now was the one who wiped his memory in this timeline. So from the time HRG visited the Haitian (if he even did), he wouldn't have killed him and everything would have changed (maybe they would have become allies). That makes a little bit of sense but clearly not how you see it. And what was once a big impact scene in the first half of the season never even happened.
> 
> It changes everything yet we've only been shown bits and pieces of what's changed. It's not too complicated to follow, they just haven't explained it well and once again, everything that happened in the first half of the season is in question outside of vague major plot points.
> 
> I love superhero movies/shows and even time travel aspects of these shows, but if you use always are using it to change things, it really lessens the impact major developments have. The show was doing ok before Hiro came back IMO.


The story is still being told. There is more to come.

Also, the way i see it, the first half of the season did happen. It led to what is happening now. Noah knows what happened previously. I think Angela does, too. Those scenes are not negated, at least in my mind.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

GDG76 said:


> .
> .
> .
> This happens in every time travel show(other than Lost, where it actually made some sense) and we still have someone who can time travel in this show. *It ruined the first series *and it happened here as well IMO.
> ...


If you think time travel ruined the first Heroes, you weren't watching closely. The network ruined it! The creative minds behind it leaving ruined it. Time travel poorly handled was a very minor contribution to its demise. 


teknikel said:


> The story is still being told. There is more to come.
> 
> Also, the way i see it, the first half of the season did happen. It led to what is happening now. Noah knows what happened previously. I think Angela does, too. Those scenes are not negated, at least in my mind.


I agree with this.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Has there ever been a season where a future event wasn't foretold and they were trying to prevent it? I stopped watching after the 2nd season, so I'm not sure, but since we already went through that with season 1 and 2, it would have been nice if this one approached things differently.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> Has there ever been a season where a future event wasn't foretold and they were trying to prevent it? I stopped watching after the 2nd season, so I'm not sure, but since we already went through that with season 1 and 2, it would have been nice if this one approached things differently.


Yes.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

bobcarn said:


> Has there ever been a season where a future event wasn't foretold and they were trying to prevent it? I stopped watching after the 2nd season, so I'm not sure, but since we already went through that with season 1 and 2, it would have been nice if this one approached things differently.


Season 2 never even wrapped up their future event line. That was during the writer's strike so they cut the season short and attempted to wrap it up very sloppily in the final episode, but it was very quick and vague given how much time they had dedicated to the build up.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Season 2 never even wrapped up their future event line. That was during the writer's strike so they cut the season short and attempted to wrap it up very sloppily in the final episode, but it was very quick and vague given how much time they had dedicated to the build up.


I remember the fight that we were all waiting for, a super powered up Peter vs a super powered up Sylar, which took place entirely off screen.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Apparently there have been two new episodes of the show since the new year. I haven't watched them and I don't care.

I cared before. I cared in the fall. But now I don't.

TV execs are so stupid. I would have watched then, but putting it on a meaningless winter hiatus made me lose all interest.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> I cared before. I cared in the fall. But now I don't.


Ditto. I would have completely forgotten the show existed, had my Tivo not recorded it's return and put it at the top of my list. And I watched the first episode of the year, but not the second, as my tivo misplaced the second one and I forgot it existed until I saw this thread..


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> Apparently there have been two new episodes of the show since the new year. I haven't watched them and I don't care.
> 
> I cared before. I cared in the fall. But now I don't.
> 
> TV execs are so stupid. I would have watched then, but putting it on a meaningless winter hiatus made me lose all interest.


Yep. I kind of want to wait until all three air, then just spend 3 minutes reading a recap of what happens. Then I don't have to spend over two hours actually watching.


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

I'm only watching to see how they wrap it up.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

I hope they wrap it up by time zapping Hiro right to the end of Season 1 of the original series. The first season of Heros was great. Everything since then has been horrible. This season has been slightly less horrible than 2 and 3.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> I hope they wrap it up by time zapping Hiro right to the end of Season 1 of the original series. The first season of Heros was great. Everything since then has been horrible. This season has been slightly less horrible than 2 and 3.


I don't think I'd put it that way. It has been decent. Not as good as season 1 but better than most shows.

Huge mistake in going on a break near the end.


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## Hercules67 (Dec 8, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> I don't think I'd put it that way. It has been decent. Not as good as season 1 but better than most shows.
> 
> Huge mistake in going on a break near the end.


Completely agree.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> I don't think I'd put it that way. It has been decent. Not as good as season 1 but better than most shows.
> 
> Huge mistake in going on a break near the end.


That was my point. I was into it. I watched it live. I cared.

Now I don't, because they waited too long.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> That was my point. I was into it. I watched it live. I cared. Now I don't, because they waited too long.


I am still watching it but I was finding myself looking forward to it before the break. Now it is just there.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> That was my point. I was into it. I watched it live. I cared.
> 
> Now I don't, because they waited too long.


On the other hand, if it was really compelling drama, you'd still care.

I had to think a bit to even remember what was going on.

But then, this season is falling flat for me anyways and a key reason is I don't buy Parkman's arc one bit.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> That was my point. I was into it. I watched it live. I cared.
> 
> Now I don't, because they waited too long.


Yup. I still watch it, but I don't watch it live. It's not even that my interest declined. It's largely that I found something else to do during the hiatus and don't even think of it until I'm looking at my recorded shows.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Looks like people lost interest, at least the ones participating in the thread.

In case someone does still care, did anyone catch something really weird at the very end?


Spoiler



Why was grandma Petrelli young again? She'd been old and gray and pretty weather-beaten by the time Molina was a teenager.

At the very end, tho', when she was shown in the car with still-teenaged Molina (apparently now attending Claire's old school), she was back to the age she should be in 2016.

Did Tommy go back and get her from the time they were babies so she could return to her life? If so, who raised Molina, and why did we see her old and gray self IN 2015/2016, not that long ago?

They found an Evo somewhere who can cause rejuvination?



Also, someone jog my memory. What happened to Hiro? Did they show him die and I'm not remembering it?


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

I guess they were being hopeful for another season with that dad cliff hanger.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Test said:


> I guess they were being hopeful for another season with that dad cliff hanger.


That's not a cliffhanger. That's a teaser.

They actually wrapped things up pretty well and key characters actually died. Like they planned for the original series.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Do we know who their Dad is? 

Time travel would really be handy for emergencies that are time sensitive.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> That's not a cliffhanger. That's a teaser.
> 
> They actually wrapped things up pretty well and key characters actually died. Like they planned for the original series.


What's the difference?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Test said:


> What's the difference?


Cliffhanger something is going on that a character is in danger or something really bad looks like it is going to happen. That was more a mystery. No need for closure with a teaser. We aren't worried about anyone.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> Cliffhanger something is going on that a character is in danger or something really bad looks like it is going to happen. That was more a mystery. No need for closure with a teaser. We aren't worried about anyone.


Makes sense


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Did that feel like they had to rush everything to make it fit in the final episode to anybody else? Seemed very anticlimactic to me. A disappointing end to a fairly decent start.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Seemed very anticlimactic to me. A disappointing end to a fairly decent start.


I think this sums up Heroes (original and reborn) in a nutshell. We watched the last episode last night just to get it off the DVR. Heroes is still an interesting idea, but the execution never really lived up to it.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

Ereth said:


> Did that feel like they had to rush everything to make it fit in the final episode to anybody else? Seemed very anticlimactic to me. A disappointing end to a fairly decent start.


Nope. I was glad the season finally ended.

The entire season seemed too drawn out. The pacing at times was too slow. They could have maybe had the events in the last episode be in two episodes if they ditched the slower noneventful earlier episodes, like the dating episode or anything involving the terrible Parkman or Mika characters.

To be honest, it would have been a better entire series if they stopped after season one of the original Heroes. Season 2 and 3 were horrible. This Heroes Reborn wasnt as bad, but no where near original season material.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

It felt right to me. It was all about getting the twins together at the right point in time. We knew that for quite some time. So it ended the way it was supposed to. The only inhibition was Carly, er, Erica, so it was about getting her out of the way.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Do we know who their Dad is?...





Spoiler



He apparently was in the ice cream shop with Tommy/Nathan and his girlfriend at the end of the finale. As he left we only saw a silhouette thru the closing, frosted glass door.

He was wearing a baseball cap.

You know...

The way Sylar was dressed the first time we saw him, indistinctly, in a coffee shop, before he took the top off the head of Hiro's waitress girlfriend?


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> Nope. I was glad the season finally ended.
> 
> The entire season seemed too drawn out. The pacing at times was too slow. They could have maybe had the events in the last episode be in two episodes if they ditched the slower noneventful earlier episodes, like the dating episode or anything involving the terrible Parkman or Mika characters.
> 
> To be honest, it would have been a better entire series if they stopped after season one of the original Heroes. Season 2 and 3 were horrible. This Heroes Reborn wasnt as bad, but no where near original season material.


The finale did make me feel sort of let down. Not as high-energy as we'd have expected it to be. Sort of like the finale of the first "Heroes" season. The fight with Sylar... The most memorable thing in that fight to me was when Nikki hit him with a parking meter she'd pulled out of the sidewalk.

There should have been more.

Same this time.

I wonder if we'll ever get more?

They did say "end of volume", but gave no volume number. Almost like they're not sure if this was the next season of the original show, or the first season of a new series.

Oh well...



Spoiler



I still wonder about Grandma Petrelli in that closing scene...WHY was she younger again?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

gastrof said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought the same thing, but Zachary Quinto is a big star now, I'm not sure they could have actually got him to come back to TV. Plus he tried to kill Claire like 5 times in the original series, so it would have been really unbelievable.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I had two favorite parts of this series:

1) When Whatshisname flame broiled his wife in the gym. I couldn't stand her.

2) When black smoke, power robbing girl was finally killed. I REALLY couldn't stand her.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> I had two favorite parts of this series:
> 
> 1) When Whatshisname flame broiled his wife in the gym. I couldn't stand her.
> 
> 2) When black smoke, power robbing girl was finally killed. I REALLY couldn't stand her.


Agreed!


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

gastrof said:


> I wonder if we'll ever get more?


Nope (at least not until they revive it again).

http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=536119&highlight=heroes


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> 2) When black smoke, power robbing girl was finally killed. I REALLY couldn't stand her.


Did you watch the web spots on YouTube leading up to the series? If gives you a completely different perspective on both her and her brother.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Did you watch the web spots on YouTube leading up to the series? If gives you a completely different perspective on both her and her brother.


It did. I didn't quite understand how she wound up where she wound up. But I don't need a full explanation for motives of people.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Ereth said:


> Did that feel like they had to rush everything to make it fit in the final episode to anybody else? Seemed very anticlimactic to me. A disappointing end to a fairly decent start.


Maybe it felt rushed because they normally drag it out longer? Since the ultimate goal was merely for the twins to get together, the pacing seemed about right. The anticlimactic part was, I think, just the writers/director not being fully up to the task. Even in the first season, the ending was very low-key after all that build-up.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

One thing that bothered me this time is that in the original series, whatever other flaws they may have had, they generally thought through the individual powers and their consequences fairly carefully. In Reborn, however, the powers seemed rather random...i.e., people could do things not because this is a thing somebody with this power could do, but because the plot required it. And they didn't think of doing things that they obviously could do when it would get in the way of the plot.

In other words, Reborn seemed to have more of a Flash/Supergirl approach to powers than a Heroes approach.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One thing that bothered me this time is that in the original series, whatever other flaws they may have had, they generally thought through the individual powers and their consequences fairly carefully. In Reborn, however, the powers seemed rather random...i.e., people could do things not because this is a thing somebody with this power could do, but because the plot required it. And they didn't think of doing things that they obviously could do when it would get in the way of the plot. In other words, Reborn seemed to have more of a Flash/Supergirl approach to powers than a Heroes approach.


Examples please?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hiro being able to tell what would happen if he did something by thinking about doing it and then going to the future to check out the consequences. The Wonder Twins powers combining to do...whatever it is that they did. The de-powering girl being able to physical manipulate people with her de-powering smoke. Hiro's whole "changing the past is the worst thing in the universe, except when it isn't" shtick. Time-and-space boy never bothering to do much of anything with his absolute mastery of time and space. Chuck using his power to generate heat to do whatever it is he did to the solar flare.

Off the top of my head...


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Yes, I was terribly amused that Chuck decided that the way to stop a giant stream of fire coming towards you was to throw more fire at it. That made no sense at all.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

For a forest fire, maybe. For a solar flare? WTF?


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

Ereth said:


> Yes, I was terribly amused that Chuck decided that the way to stop a giant stream of fire coming towards you was to throw more fire at it. That made no sense at all.


But it worked! Way to go Chuck!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Hiro being able to tell what would happen if he did something by thinking about doing it and then going to the future to check out the consequences. The Wonder Twins powers combining to do...whatever it is that they did. The de-powering girl being able to physical manipulate people with her de-powering smoke. Hiro's whole "changing the past is the worst thing in the universe, except when it isn't" shtick. Time-and-space boy never bothering to do much of anything with his absolute mastery of time and space. Chuck using his power to generate heat to do whatever it is he did to the solar flare. Off the top of my head...


Hiro didn't think about it. He made the changes over and over again. Completely within his power.

How is it a change of power for the twins when their power was never firmly established and their power was the whole basis of the story?

I'm tired of the butterfly effect nonsense. Plenty of things DON'T change the future. And Hiro determined what would and wouldn't. Not a change of power.

Again, you claim a change in powers yet Chuck's weren't firmly established. Looked like a human torch trick to me. If his power is electromagnetically based, he overloaded the flare or "reversed the polarity."

I think you are reaching. No more circumstantial than the original series. Or any other story ever.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I did like the boy splitting himself into two, and each one knew exactly what he was going to do. It got a little confusing though. Did he ever "recombine"?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Hiro didn't think about it. He made the changes over and over again. Completely within his power.


It's nice of you to rewrite the show so it makes sense, but what they actually showed was clearly him flashing back and forth between the present and the future, WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING IN BETWEEN.

In the original series, people tended to have specific, well-defined powers. Here, they can pretty much do anything the writers want them to.


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

bobcarn said:


> I did like the boy splitting himself into two, and each one knew exactly what he was going to do. It got a little confusing though. Did he ever "recombine"?


I didn't get this; why could he not be in two places at once previously and why did the evil lady think it couldn't be done (not even Hiro could do it, she said)? We saw HRG talking to himself in earlier episodes. Did we never see old Hiro while young Hiro was around in the original series?

What was so special about being in two places at once? Couldn't he just jump a second into the past and have two of him?


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Test said:


> I didn't get this; why could he not be in two places at once previously and why did the evil lady think it couldn't be done (not even Hiro could do it, she said)? We saw HRG talking to himself in earlier episodes. Did we never see old Hiro while young Hiro was around in the original series?
> 
> What was so special about being in two places at once? Couldn't he just jump a second into the past and have two of him?


Here's the difference.....

Think of a person having a timeline from birth to death. Like a long string. When he jumps back in time, that part of the string appears in the past. If a person jumped back in time one day to the same place they were a day ago, he'd be standing alongside his younger self. It'd be like that part of his string was laying alongside another earlier part of his string. But it would all be just different sections of the same string. His _older_ self is alongside his _younger_ self.

Using your example, if he jumped back one second into the past, there would be two of him for one second, after which that one-second-younger version would disappear as he went backward.

What he did at the end of the season dealt more with quantum mechanics than time. It's like his string split at that point, like the letter "Y". There were literally two of him at that point, each one being an identical copy of the other.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> It did. I didn't quite understand how she wound up where she wound up. But I don't need a full explanation for motives of people.


They kind of glossed over it, but it seems that after she was rounded up they tortured her and that's why she ended up being a bad guy.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's nice of you to rewrite the show so it makes sense, but what they actually showed was clearly him flashing back and forth between the present and the future, WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING IN BETWEEN.


Not at all. They showed him coming back to the spot he started and restarted. He did the things when he was gone in between those flashes. Dammit, he even SAID that's what he did. I didn't rewrite. I paid attention.


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## dhelsley (Sep 28, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Hiro being able to tell what would happen if he did something by thinking about doing it and then going to the future to check out the consequences. The Wonder Twins powers combining to do...whatever it is that they did. The de-powering girl being able to physical manipulate people with her de-powering smoke. Hiro's whole "changing the past is the worst thing in the universe, except when it isn't" shtick. Time-and-space boy never bothering to do much of anything with his absolute mastery of time and space. Chuck using his power to generate heat to do whatever it is he did to the solar flare.
> 
> Off the top of my head...


Yeah, I was really let down by all the same issues. When Luke stopped the flare, I was scratching my head. Not only were the effects pretty bad, he had only recently manifested his powers and somehow knew how to take it out. They went out of their way this season to show how Nathan and Malina had been training for years. If his character had been a scientist and offered a throwaway line about what he was attempting to do, I would have been satisfied.

The depowering girl was annoying and yes, the physical manipulation was a WTF moment for me. The Haitian could also suppress powers. I guess they wanted something cool to show the audience instead of an intense stare.

Regarding the butterfly nonsense, I really hated that they killed Noah. Unless I misunderstood, Nathan plucked him out of the moment where he was going to die in order to make the sacrifice and not change the past. But the past was changed earlier in the season and some previously dead characters were alive (e.g., the Haitian). The universe didn't unravel then. Plus, damn it, I loved his character and now the twins have lost their mom and their grandfather. What a bummer ending.

I'm in the minority, but I actually liked all of Heroes through season 4. Did seasons 2 - 4 live up to my hopes? Definitely not, but I did enjoy them for what they were. I wish I had just skipped Reborn.


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## bryhamm (Jun 30, 2004)

Were we ever told who the father of the twins was?


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

bryhamm said:


> Were we ever told who the father of the twins was?


I was wondering who it is too. They made it seem like his returning was ominous. For lack of any other information, I'm voting Sylar.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

As I said up thread I doubt it was Sylar. Zachary Quinto probably wouldn't have come back anyway and even if he would he tried to kill Claire like 5 times why would she ever sleep with him?


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> As I said up thread I doubt it was Sylar. Zachary Quinto probably wouldn't have come back anyway and even if he would he tried to kill Claire like 5 times why would she ever sleep with him?


Sylar could shapeshift too. And technically, there's nothing wrong with getting another actor to portray him. As for why Claire would ever sleep with him...... the drama of having Sylar be the father far outweighs the desire for logic from the writers.

"oooooh. I know. Let's have Sylar be the father."
"But Claire would never have slept with him."
"Who cares! It'd be an awesome story. We'll just have to come up with a reason for it."
"OK."


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I thought there was some issue with his shape shifting ability toward the end that locked him into his original form? I know the whole last season he never shifted. That was a season 3 device.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I thought there was some issue with his shape shifting ability toward the end that locked him into his original form? I know the whole last season he never shifted. That was a season 3 device.


There was a period where he was brainwashed into thinking he was Nathan, so of course he looked like Nathan. Ugh, now I remember why I wasn't upset when it ended!


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I watched the third to last episode, then fast forwarded through 90% of the last two. Meh.


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