# Lost - Meet Kevin Johnson 3/20



## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Shame its the last for a while...

Thought once Karl bought it, that would be it. 

Sorry to see Rousseau go as well


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

by the way, what was that on Alex's right ear as she was speaking with Rousseau, it looked like something metal and I didn't think they would have her wearing earrings.


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Shame its the last for a while...
> 
> Thought once Karl bought it, that would be it.
> 
> Sorry to see Rousseau go as well


Where did she go? Carl was hit several times, Rousseau was only hit once. Locke was shot by Ben and made a full recovery.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

Paperboy2003 said:


> by the way, what was that on Alex's right ear as she was speaking with Rousseau, it looked like something metal and I didn't think they would have her wearing earrings.


I noticed it too.

It was just a little beaded thing at the end of a braid of hair, hanging in front of her ear.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, the "Next On Lost" bit will certainly give people something to talk about concerning


Spoiler



the Oceanic 6, who it would seem are now definitively revealed.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

scottykempf said:


> Where did she go? Carl was hit several times, Rousseau was only hit once. Locke was shot by Ben and made a full recovery.


Well last weeks preview did make it a point of saying 'ONE OF THESE PEOPLE WILL DIIIIIEEEEEEE!!!!!!' so I'm assuming that's what they were referring to ....


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Good to see Mr Friendly again. Didn't realize he was quite that friendly.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Shame its the last for a while...
> 
> Thought once Karl bought it, that would be it.


Gotta wonder if Ben wanted the little twerp ravaging his daughter dead.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

It was an ok episode.

However, the less an episode takes place on the Island, the less I like it.

And they didn't give the info that they promised. How did Michael and Walt make it from the tiny boat on the Island back to NYC? Did they take the boat all the way there (impossible). Who found them? Where did they go? How did they get there?

No answers to that at all.


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## editivo (Jan 22, 2001)

I'll state the obvious before someone else does. Sayid turning in Michael was Sayid "thinking with his heart instead of his gun". I am sure this is the incident that Ben was talking about when he was stiching up Sayid in the future.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

scottykempf said:


> Where did she go? Carl was hit several times, Rousseau was only hit once. Locke was shot by Ben and made a full recovery.


I doubt we've seen the last of Rousseau, even in the current timeframe. Heck, haven't Damon & Carlton talked about her eventually having her own flashback episode?


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

So, I guess Ana Lucia had one too many DUI charges to even appear as a "ghost" to Michael.  I was surprised to see Libby make a couple of appearances.

So, the island won't let Michael die. Interesting. And Kate REALLY wasn't Tom's type. And it was hard to follow the timeline for Michael's flashback. Tom was off the island so are we to assume that was before Locke blew the sub? Or do they have another way off the island no one else knows about? When exactly did Ben make that first call to Michael.

Also, I know for you people that don't watch the commercials and such you won't know what I'm talknig about, but during the commercial breaks right before it came back to Lost, did anyone else notice the subliminals advertising the return of The Mole. I'm pretty excited about that!


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## scottykempf (Dec 1, 2004)

unicorngoddess said:


> Also, I know for you people that don't watch the commercials and such you won't know what I'm talknig about, but during the commercial breaks right before it came back to Lost, did anyone else notice the subliminals advertising the return of The Mole. I'm pretty excited about that!


I saw the Mole flash, I think they were going to run it and didn't. I don't think it was subliminal, just a mess up.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

scottykempf said:


> I saw the Mole flash, I think they were going to run it and didn't. I don't think it was subliminal, just a mess up.


Nope. They did it at least twice.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

When Michael was trying to shoot himself in the apartment, wasn't _Slaughterhouse Five,_ or a program discussing it, on his television? Weren't the events of that book discussed a lot after The Constant aired with regard to the whole "unstuck in time" business?


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

The biggest pieces of information tonight were in the commercials and the "Next On Lost", lol.

So, do we really not "spoiler" what they showed in the Next segment? That's ... awkward.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

MitchO said:


> The biggest pieces of information tonight were in the commercials and the "Next On Lost", lol.
> 
> So, do we really not "spoiler" what they showed in the Next segment? That's ... awkward.


For those of us who require captions to watch TV, would someone please please transcript the previews. Spoilerized, of course! 

It seems they are going to be discussed endlessly until April 24, and it's gonna drive me nuts not knowing what was said . . .

TIA! :up:

BTW...many of you may not realize it, since most don't watch with captions, but the "next week on..." segments for all TV shows are never captioned. Often, neither are the "previously on.." segments.


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## editivo (Jan 22, 2001)

I don't require captions and it drives me nuts that they do that. I sometimes can't make out some words and turn on the captioning to figure out what they said. I try doing that with the previews and nothing.


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

The major thing indicated in the previews:



Spoiler



The voice over indicated "now that all of the Oceanic Six have been revealed ..." as they show each of the O6's faces. The 5th shown is Aaron. So I guess acorns count.



For those trying to stay true to no spoiler ... this isn't a spoiler, per se. I actually would recommend you read it.


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## cwoody222 (Nov 13, 1999)

philw1776 said:


> Good to see Mr Friendly again. Didn't realize he was quite that friendly.


They hinted at that before.



unicorngoddess said:


> So, the island won't let Michael die. Interesting. And Kate REALLY wasn't Tom's type. And it was hard to follow the timeline for Michael's flashback. Tom was off the island so are we to assume that was before Locke blew the sub? Or do they have another way off the island no one else knows about? When exactly did Ben make that first call to Michael.


I took it to be very close to "present day" (on the island). We know when Christmas Eve is and in Manhattan, due to decorations, it was close to Christmas.

I would say Mr. Friendly got off the island another way other than the sub.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cwoody222 said:


> I took it to be very close to "present day" (on the island). We know when Christmas Eve is and in Manhattan, due to decorations, it was close to Christmas.


Well, I'd say somewhere between Thanksgiving and Christmas...


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

So....

Previously, the captain of the freighter (who clearly works for Widmore) told Sayid and Desmond that Ben Linus planted the fake 815 crash.

In this episode Tom tells Michael that Widmore planted the fake crashed plane!

So....

Either:


One of them is lying, or
A *THIRD PARTY* actually planted the plane and Widmore thinks Ben's people did it and Ben's people think Widmore did it!

I love it.

Oh, and by the way, we now know why Tom once told Kate, "Don't worry, you're not my type."


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I think we've known Tom was gay for quite a while. It's not news.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I don't think there was ever any ambiguity about what he meant when he told Kate she wasn't his type. (Have you _seen_ Kate? )

I wouldn't consider the beginning of the previews a spoiler it all. It's actually not even a preview. Since it doesn't reveal anything from a future episode, aren't we free to discuss it spoiler-tag-free?

If Widmore is the bad guy, then he conveniently has Frank Lapidus to help with his cover story. I'm leaning toward Ben being the bad guy. But, I guess Miles (by his silence) confirmed that their orders are in fact to kill everyone else, right? I'm not sure why they want Ben, only thought I have is something having to do with revenge for the Dharma purge.

Shouldn't the bomb have been unable to work regardless of whether Ben had rigged it, assuming the island really did prevent the gun from working? And I guess the car accident as well?

I was a little disappointed also that we didn't see how Michael and Walt actually got back, but I'm happy with what we got. I liked how it was mostly flashback material.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, I'd say somewhere between Thanksgiving and Christmas...


It would have to be before Tom was killed, which I believe was around 12/22. Could be narrowed down further perhaps if there's a gap in times when Tom is known to be on the island.


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## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

If nothing else, this episodes solves one thing: Who is the hottest woman on the island? Has to be Tania Raymonde (Alex). I always thought that to be the case. BTW, it will be her 20th birthday on Saturday.


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## editivo (Jan 22, 2001)

What does it matter what her age is. If you think she's hot that just say so no need to justify it. I have always liked Claire and the other girls that were one Roswell and thought they were hot. Is there any reason I shouldn't have thought that?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Previously on Lost...

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALT!

I almost turned it off right there. 

Seriously, though...



Turtleboy said:


> It was an ok episode.
> 
> However, the less an episode takes place on the Island, the less I like it.
> 
> ...


Not to that, but still lots and lots and lots of answers. Heck, Basil "Mr. Friendly" Exposition did a great job confirming all sorts of things people had posted in prior threads.



jdfs said:


> If nothing else, this episodes solves one thing: Who is the hottest woman on the island? Has to be Tania Raymonde (Alex). I always thought that to be the case. BTW, it will be her 20th birthday on Saturday.


She's hot, but really, if you thought Kate was thin, holy cow. Her body's only like 2" thick.

Greg


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Miles just gets creepier every time he shows up -- like when he was on the boat with the orange.

Nice to see that Michael is haunted by Libby. I would've liked to see Anna Lucia haunt him as well.

How did Michael & Walt get to NYC?? Obviously they are NOT part of the Oceanic 6.


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## Solver (Feb 17, 2005)

I guess "Kevin" can't die because he is alive in the future; so how could he be dead in the past?


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## Solver (Feb 17, 2005)

This episode confirms my basic theory a bit more.

Ben some how knows that he does something very very important in the future. Something "good."
Ben can get away with anything without fear of dying because he is alive in the future. Although, he can get hurt.
Ben knows who else will be alive in the future; people that also help in doing something very very important. Maybe he gets lists made of these people.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

unicorngoddess said:


> So, the island won't let Michael die. Interesting.


Or Tom rigged the gun.

Interesting episode but not the one I would end a break on.

And you killed Rousseau!
You bastards!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

JYoung said:


> Or Tom rigged the gun.


You mean before Michael bought it with Jin's watch?

Yes, Tom was holding the gun but we saw him the whole time, he didn't have a chance to do any rigging. It would have had to have been before Michael bought the gun.

Greg


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## brott (Feb 23, 2001)

cwoody222 said:


> I took it to be very close to "present day" (on the island). We know when Christmas Eve is and in Manhattan, due to decorations, it was close to Christmas.
> 
> I would say Mr. Friendly got off the island another way other than the sub.


Guys .. did you not notice? Michael is unstuck in time. While in the Hospital we see the old equipment and then the new equipment .. We see not Christmas, then Christmas .. We see Libby, not Libby .. We see young man, Old man.

Libby is Michael's Constant .. That's when Michael "wakes up" and is no longer unstuck in time ..


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

If Michael's unstuck, he sure is well adjusted. Nah, I don't buy it.

Greg


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, the "Next On Lost" bit will certainly give people something to talk about concerning
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yep, I think it's been pretty well solved.


unicorngoddess said:


> Nope. They did it at least twice.


I saw it twice (preview flash for The Mole) and was very excited.


brott said:


> Guys .. did you not notice? Michael is unstuck in time. While in the Hospital we see the old equipment and then the new equipment .. We see not Christmas, then Christmas .. We see Libby, not Libby .. We see young man, Old man.
> 
> Libby is Michael's Constant .. That's when Michael "wakes up" and is no longer unstuck in time ..


Ummmmmmm, no. That's Michael being haunted by the ghost of Libby and just having a bad dream.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

brott said:


> Guys .. did you not notice? Michael is unstuck in time. While in the Hospital we see the old equipment and then the new equipment .. We see not Christmas, then Christmas .. We see Libby, not Libby .. We see young man, Old man.
> 
> Libby is Michael's Constant .. That's when Michael "wakes up" and is no longer unstuck in time ..


You're thinking too hard.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

good episode. Still gotta catch up on last week's thread and rewatch this one.


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## smickola (Nov 17, 2004)

I thought it was a very good episode. Loved the appearance by Mr. Friendly!

OK, so the island won't let Michael die...is this what happens when someone gets off the island? Did the island prevent Jack from killing himself in his flash-forward, by having the accident happen when he was trying to jump off the bridge?

And they made a big point of reminding us that Michael's from New York. We knew Michael could be the "man from New York" who died in Jack's flash-forward, but had no reason to understand why his death would affect Jack so dramatically. Maybe this has something to do with it...that the island finally let Michael die, and it means something to Jack in terms of his or the others survival?

When Michael first came on the freighter and Miles offered him an orange - wasn't that a throwback to the scene when Locke first met Walt?

And speaking of Walt, it looked to me like a different actor when they showed the brief silhouette of him in the window...his body seemed thicker...looks like they went out of their way to not show "tall Walt" off the island.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

If the obit says Kevin Johnson, well. . . Walt and his mom doesn't know who Kevin JOhnson is and won't go.

"kevin Johnson, who was on the freigther that rescued the Oceanic six, committed suicide. . ." etc.

Jack gets upset b/c he's Jack. Kate doesn't care b/c she's Kate.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

getreal said:


> How did Michael & Walt get to NYC?? Obviously they are NOT part of the Oceanic 6.


This episode took place before the "rescue" of the 6. Walt or Michael still could manage to join the other rescuees and have the media think that they had never been off the island...


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Didn't Michael's mom say something about not being able to use Michael's real name since he's been back. 

The time line did seem to be jumping around a lot. Especially with regards to when the plane went down and when Michael showed up back in New York. Might watch it again to be sure but I know I saw Michael watching a newscast of the plane wreckage. 

Which is more plausible? That Widmore, a man with apparently unlimited resources did the plane crash coverup or Ben, a man with no money or job off the island. How long after the plane crashed was the plane wreck discovered?

I found it interesting that Mr. Friendly was able to leave the island at all. How did he leave? The submarine was already destroyed by that point. His response to Michael's question was interesting too. They can leave the island "when we need to."


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> Which is more plausible? That Widmore, a man with apparently unlimited resources did the plane crash coverup or Ben, a man with no money or job off the island.


Ben's got to have *some* money. After all, Tom was staying in the hotel penthouse...


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> Ben's got to have *some* money. After all, Tom was staying in the hotel penthouse...


Did he say it was his hotel room? Could have been the other guy's room.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

getreal said:


> Miles just gets creepier every time he shows up -- like when he was on the boat with the *orange*.
> 
> Nice to see that Michael is haunted by Libby. I would've liked to see Anna Lucia haunt him as well.
> 
> How did Michael & Walt get to NYC?? Obviously they are NOT part of the Oceanic 6.


Wait, doesn't citrus explode if you time travel with it?


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## JDHutt25 (Dec 27, 2004)

gchance said:


> You mean before Michael bought it with Jin's watch?
> 
> Yes, Tom was holding the gun but we saw him the whole time, he didn't have a chance to do any rigging. It would have had to have been before Michael bought the gun.
> 
> Greg


I thought Tom pulled his own gun. I thought I saw Michael's gun get knocked out of his hand, then Tom pulled his gun on Michael, which he then gave him, which, I think might have been rigged so Michael would think that the Island won't let him kill himself.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Sirius Black said:


> Didn't Michael's mom say something about not being able to use Michael's real name since he's been back.
> 
> The time line did seem to be jumping around a lot. Especially with regards to when the plane went down and when Michael showed up back in New York. Might watch it again to be sure but I know I saw Michael watching a newscast of the plane wreckage.
> 
> ...


Michael didn't need the submarine in order to leave.

Yes, Michael was watching the same newscast that we saw in "Confirmed Dead." The only time it seemed to jump around to me was when he got out of the hospital so fast. Do the island's healing powers stay with you after you leave the island? Michael didn't even leave the island until the end of November.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> If the obit says Kevin Johnson, well. . . Walt and his mom doesn't know who Kevin JOhnson is and won't go.
> 
> "kevin Johnson, who was on the freigther that rescued the Oceanic six, committed suicide. . ." etc.
> 
> Jack gets upset b/c he's Jack. Kate doesn't care b/c she's Kate.


So the island finally lets him kill himself/die... why now/then?
We predicted Michael would be the man on the boat and I think we are getting closer to michael being the man in the coffin.

Ben says "you killed them michael, no one asked you to."
Wow. 
But the "consider yourself one of the good guys," line was a bit hoakey. I know it was a throw back to Ben saying 'we're the good guys' to Michael before, just sounded lame this time.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

Fish Man said:


> Oh, and by the way, we now know why Tom once told Kate, "Don't worry, you're not my type."


and why he throws like a girl


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> So the island finally lets him kill himself/die... why now/then?
> We predicted Michael would be the man on the boat and I think we are getting closer to michael being the man in the coffin.
> 
> Ben says "you killed them michael, no one asked you to."
> ...


Could be. We have we have suicide attempts, we have New York, and we know he wasn't going by Michael Dawson there.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> Did he say it was his hotel room? Could have been the other guy's room.


He said "I'm staying in the penthouse at Hotel Earle," or something like that.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Yeah we're much closer to being Michael in the coffin. (at the beginning I thought that was the death scene, until we saw him in the hospital). In the coffin obit it not only mentioned New York, but suicide too.. If someone did an obit for Kevin, it'd probably mention suicide (doctors found a note pinned to his chest to Walt).


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

(that is, the obit could have mentioned this previous suicide attempt, before his later, actual cause of death)


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## mwhip (Jul 22, 2002)

Just FYI about the Mole

http://abc.go.com/specials/themole/index


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I thought it was a great episode.

ANd regarding the creative advertising for the Mole..........I'll watch, but the Mole just isn't the Mole without Anderson Cooper.

Tiny bubbles.............


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

Did he really say Hotel Earle? That's no indication of having a lot of money, trust me:

http://www.new-pony.com/tour/hotelearle.html

(Note: The Hotel Earle is also where _Barton Fink_ takes place).


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

MitchO said:


> Did he really say Hotel Earle? That's no indication of having a lot of money, trust me:
> 
> http://www.new-pony.com/tour/hotelearle.html
> 
> (Note: The Hotel Earle is also where _Barton Fink_ takes place).


I'm 97% certain that's what the captions said!


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Yeah we're much closer to being Michael in the coffin. (at the beginning I thought that was the death scene, until we saw him in the hospital). In the coffin obit it not only mentioned New York, but suicide too.. If someone did an obit for Kevin, it'd probably mention suicide (doctors found a note pinned to his chest to Walt).





jkeegan said:


> (that is, the obit could have mentioned this previous suicide attempt, before his later, actual cause of death)


Still doesn't explain a few things...

Why would the suicide of an unknown NY man appear in an L.A. newspaper
Why would the funeral be in L.A.
Why wouldn't at least his mother and son attend? Sure, they were estranged, but not to the point of missing his funeral.

Now, if Michael dies later. Living in L.A. under a name that his mother and Walt might not recognize, then it might just be Michael.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> So....
> 
> Previously, the captain of the freighter (who clearly works for Widmore) told Sayid and Desmond that Ben Linus planted the fake 815 crash.
> 
> ...


The news reporter said there was little hope to retrieve the remains and equally skeptical to retrieving the black box. Captain Gaunt has the black box which he said Widmore retrieved... it seems like it would be easier for Widmore to retrieve the black box if he staged the plane and not Ben. I'm leaning towards Widmore being the man. I mean Friendly had receipts and everything!


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

As usaul, some questions answered but new questions arise.
Ben says that once he's captured the people on the boat will kill everyone else. Does anyone ask why they want Ben? How do they even know about Ben? Why do they want everyone else dead?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

jamesbobo said:


> As usaul, some questions answered but new questions arise.
> Ben says that once he's captured the people on the boat will kill everyone else. Does anyone ask why they want Ben? How do they even know about Ben? Why do they want everyone else dead?


Also, wouldn't they kill everyone on the island anyway when Miles reports that Ben is dead (after being paid his $3.2 million?). Seems kind of lose-lose for the losties.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Fish Man said:


> So....
> 
> Previously, the captain of the freighter (who clearly works for Widmore) told Sayid and Desmond that Ben Linus planted the fake 815 crash.


Are you sure? That episode is deleted so I can't watch again but I remember it as the captian saying "someone went to a lot of trouble to fake the crash". I don't recall him saying it was Ben. 
Maybe he doesn't know it was Widmore, and if he does know I don't think he would tell Sayid about it.


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## acej80 (Jan 19, 2003)

Amnesia said:


> This episode took place before the "rescue" of the 6. Walt or Michael still could manage to join the other rescuees and have the media think that they had never been off the island...


Based on the information at the end of the episode, there is no question who the 6 are. W & M are not part of them.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> Still doesn't explain a few things...
> 
> Why would the suicide of an unknown NY man appear in an L.A. newspaper
> Why would the funeral be in L.A.
> Why wouldn't at least his mother and son attend? Sure, they were estranged, but not to the point of missing the funeral I think.


If the obit identified him as Kevin Johnson, his mother and son may never have known he was using that name. After the freighter and 'finishing his work', Michael ended up back in LA, and now able to successfully kill himself. The passport did say he was from NY but since no one claimed the body,........ then why even have a public service at all... doh.
I hate it when i try to speculate an answer and i end up asking more questions.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Mike Farrington said:


> Still doesn't explain a few things...
> 
> Why would the suicide of an unknown NY man appear in an L.A. newspaper
> Why would the funeral be in L.A.
> ...



It happened in L.A.
It happened in L.A.
It happened in L.A., they were estranged (maybe to the point of not going cross-country to attend, especially if his body were being sent back to NY for burial they'd have something there), or maybe they just didn't know about it because under his assumed name, no one knew how to connect him to his mother to inform her and Walt.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> Which is more plausible? That Widmore, a man with apparently unlimited resources did the plane crash coverup or Ben, a man with no money or job off the island. How long after the plane crashed was the plane wreck discovered?


We've seen plenty of clues that Ben and his people are connected to a very powerful group. The submarine (which it would appear Locke blew up), the access to intricate details about the lives of the passengers on flight 815, Sayid's working for Ben on the mainland after getting off the island, and Ben clearly wielding power out in the "real world". Tom being put up in a penthouse suite. There's lots more.

Last season, I was guessing that Ben worked for Widmore. Now, it's clear that Ben's organization, whatever it is, is a rival of Widmore for control of the island.

So, in short, it seems obvious that *either Ben's group or Widmore* has the resources to stage the fake crash. I find it extremely intriguing that each group is blaming the other for staging the crash. This opens the possibility that it was actually staged by a _third party_, unbeknown to either of them. (It's also possible that one of them is lying, too.)


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## rufus_x_s (Jul 14, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> If the obit identified him as Kevin Johnson, his mother and son may never have known he was using that name.


Although not shown, I'd think it was plausible that he'd tell his mom to use the name Kevin Johnson so that she knows it. I mean, would you tell someone not to use your real name and then not give them an alias?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> If the obit identified him as Kevin Johnson, his mother and son may never have known he was using that name. After the freighter and 'finishing his work', Michael ended up back in LA, and now able to successfully kill himself. The passport did say he was from NY but since no one claimed the body,........ then why even have a public service at all... doh.
> I hate it when i try to speculate an answer and i end up asking more questions.


The name in the obit was not Kevin Johnson. It was J~ ~ntham (the missing letters were illegible). That may or may not have been the name he was going by in N.Y., but it would be an incredible coincidence, even for Lost, if he had been using the name Kevin Johnson before Tom showed up.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> How did Michael and Walt make it from the tiny boat on the Island back to NYC? Did they take the boat all the way there (impossible). Who found them? Where did they go? How did they get there?
> 
> No answers to that at all.


I'm okay with not having the answers to that. They headed out at bearing 325 and "found rescue" that eventually brought them back to NYC. Apparently the details of the rescue itself are not so important. It would be nice to know, though. As for the bearing, I'm sure we'll get an explanation to its significance one of these days. Right now I'm assuming its the location of a hole in the distortion field surrounding the island.



unicorngoddess said:


> So, the island won't let Michael die. Interesting. And Kate REALLY wasn't Tom's type. And it was hard to follow the timeline for Michael's flashback. Tom was off the island so are we to assume that was before Locke blew the sub? Or do they have another way off the island no one else knows about? When exactly did Ben make that first call to Michael.


I had difficulty following the timeline for Michael's flashback, as well. His auto suicide attempt, which landed him in the hospital in a neck-brace etc, took place BEFORE the other NYC-based events in the flashbacks, right? It was confusing because when I saw him in the hospital I assumed he'd have a much longer period of convalescence but he seemed fine in the other successive flashbacks.

As for the island not letting Michael die "because it needs him", I find that to be very interesting. The island sure is powerful and able to exert its will and control events even off-island. Why, then, does it need Michael? Why use a middle-man, if it can impact events directly (like causing a gun not to fire, etc)?



Sirius Black said:


> I found it interesting that Mr. Friendly was able to leave the island at all. How did he leave? The submarine was already destroyed by that point. His response to Michael's question was interesting too. They can leave the island "when we need to."


I could be misremembering, but I think the dialog was more like:

MICHAEL: You can leave the island?
MR. FRIENDLY: Some of us can.

Which is an interesting response, too.


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

acej80 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the information at the end of the episode, there is no question who the 6 are. W & M are not part of them.


Who had post #63 in the "someone will reference the previews spoiler info" pool?

Personally I watch the "Next" info and think it is vital, but there may be some people here fanatical enough to not want to know that yet, Ace.


----------



## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

jamesbobo said:


> Are you sure?


Positive. I've not only got the episode saved, but archived to DVD as well. 

I'll have to go back to get the exact dialog but he made it clear that he wanted to capture and/or kill Ben *on the grounds that he was a key person in an organization* with the means to stage the crash.

He reveled the fake crash to Sayid and Desmond as an example of what Ben's organization was capable of, and why he was so dangerous. If he didn't actually say the words, "Ben's organization did this", he at least implied it unequivocally.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Fish Man said:


> We've seen plenty of clues that Ben and his people are connected to a very powerful group. The submarine (which it would appear Locke blew up), the access to intricate details about the lives of the passengers on flight 815, Sayid's working for Ben on the mainland after getting off the island, and Ben clearly wielding power out in the "real world". Tom being put up in a penthouse suite. There's lots more.
> 
> Last season, I was guessing that Ben worked for Widmore. Now, it's clear that Ben's organization, whatever it is, is a rival of Widmore for control of the island.
> 
> So, in short, it seems obvious that *either Ben's group or Widmore* has the resources to stage the fake crash. I find it extremely intriguing that each group is blaming the other for staging the crash. This opens the possibility that it was actually staged by a _third party_, unbeknown to either of them. (It's also possible that one of them is lying, too.)


The part with Lapidus saying that Widmore was searching for the real wreckage (or non-wreckage) because he believed that the Sunda Trench one was a fake makes a lot of sense. But it could be just a convenient coincidence for Widmore if he did actually stage the wreck. Miles' admission (or non-denial at least) about the orders to kill all of them raises obvious doubts about Widmore's intentions.

It was mentioned in a podcast or interview earlier this season that by the end of the season we'd have reason to believe that it was one of two evil organizations that staged the wreckage, and not know which to believe. I guess that last night's episode is what they were referring to.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

MitchO said:


> Who had post #63 in the "someone will reference the previews spoiler info" pool?
> 
> Personally I watch the "Next" info and think it is vital, but there may be some people here fanatical enough to not want to know that yet, Ace.


Also of note... I would hardly call the previews cannon, since they are compiled by ABC and not the producers. Hopefully they would have conferred with the producers to verify the O6, but who knows. It is most likely accurate, but not guaranteed.


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

So does Mama Cass have something to do with the plot or does somebody just like her music?  We saw Michael trying to commit suicide while "It's Getting Better" was blasting, and Desmond was listening to "Make Your Own Kind Of Music" when the hatch was blown.

I liked seeing "The Mole" promos... I can't wait for that to come back.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I thought it was interesting that the Temple was a DHARMA station and not some place of worship/idolatry for those on the island. I didn't actually think it was going to be a station.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

rufus_x_s said:


> Although not shown, I'd think it was plausible that he'd tell his mom to use the name Kevin Johnson so that she knows it. I mean, would you tell someone not to use your real name and then not give them an alias?


I agree, it probably wasn't shown. But he was using some other alias before he acquired the Kevin Johnson alias. Or changed his name again when he got back.



jeff125va said:


> The name in the obit was not Kevin Johnson. It was J~ ~ntham (the missing letters were illegible). That may or may not have been the name he was going by in N.Y., but it would be an incredible coincidence, even for Lost, if he had been using the name Kevin Johnson before Tom showed up.


That's true. But haven't the producers said that prop department and not the writers did the obit..So back to square 1 again.


----------



## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

acej80 said:


> Based on the information at the end of the episode, there is no question who the 6 are. W & M are not part of them.


What are you talking about? Something from the previews? This episode didn't have any flashforwards...


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

MitchO said:


> Who had post #63 in the "someone will reference the previews spoiler info" pool?
> 
> Personally I watch the "Next" info and think it is vital, but there may be some people here fanatical enough to not want to know that yet, Ace.


I'm not going to post it myself, but I question whether to consider it a preview. It doesn't reveal anything from future episodes, it just confirms what we've seen in prior episodes.

It was never explicitly stated during any episode that Kate or Jack was one of the "Oceanic Six" as it was with Hurley, Sayid and Sun, yet we freely discuss their status. We're relying on the same type of extra-episodal information, are we not?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> What are you talking about? Something from the previews? This episode didn't have any flashforwards...


"End of the episode" wasn't really what was meant. It was after the episode itself (part of the previews, although not previews per se).


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Cindy1230 said:


> I agree, it probably wasn't shown. But he was using some other alias before he acquired the Kevin Johnson alias. Or changed his name again when he got back.
> 
> That's true. spoilerizing just in case (let me know if it's okay to remove it.) But haven't the producers said that prop department and not the writers did the obit.. So back to square 1 again.


I'd definitely say remove the tags. I wasn't aware of that. Could be considered a prop error I guess, but still, what is the likelihood that he was going by Kevin Johnson? Then again, he could have switched names yet again, but since it said he's from New York, I'd imagine he reverted to the same name he was using when his mother mentioned not going by his real name. That's all of course assuming it is in fact Michael we're talking about here.


----------



## acej80 (Jan 19, 2003)

MitchO said:


> Who had post #63 in the "someone will reference the previews spoiler info" pool?
> 
> Personally I watch the "Next" info and think it is vital, but there may be some people here fanatical enough to not want to know that yet, Ace.


Ugh, last week I get lambasted for spoilerizing something, someone deems not spoiler worthy, and this week, it goes the other way, someone please make up my mind. 

Should I add, that the 6 where revealed from watching the show. There was doubt here (and in my mind, who the 6th was), but the end of last nights episode solidified that, and removed all doubt.


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

acej80 said:


> Ugh, last week I get lambasted for spoilerizing something, someone deems not spoiler worthy, and this week, it goes the other way, someone please make up my mind.
> 
> Should I add, that the 6 where revealed from watching the show. There was doubt here (and in my mind, who the 6th was), but the end of last nights episode solidified that, and removed all doubt.


I understand the frustration, and in general would agree with you that that bit of information is not spoiler and, in fact, helpful to a lot of discussion going on in these threads. However, it was information in a preview, not on the episode, and there are people who are faithful to the "not watching previews" rule. This particular bit really bends the reasoning, which is why I posted this back at #19:



MitchO said:


> The major thing indicated in the previews:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I still recommend everyone, even preview avoiders, just read the bit of info spoilerized here.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

acej80 said:


> Ugh, last week I get lambasted for spoilerizing something, someone deems not spoiler worthy, and this week, it goes the other way, someone please make up my mind.
> 
> Should I add, that the 6 where revealed from watching the show. There was doubt here (and in my mind, who the 6th was), but the end of last nights episode solidified that, and removed all doubt.


There a few people in this forum who are "over the top" in wanting things spoilerized. Just leave it alone. I never thought the fact that we could read part of the name in the obit meant anything. It could be an alias or a mistake by the newspaper.


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

lew said:


> There a few people in this forum who are "over the top" in wanting things spoilerized. Just leave it alone. I never thought the fact that we could read part of the name in the obit meant anything. It could be an alias or a mistake by the newspaper.


That's not the piece of information he "revealed".


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

danterner said:


> I had difficulty following the timeline for Michael's flashback, as well. His auto suicide attempt, which landed him in the hospital in a neck-brace etc, took place BEFORE the other NYC-based events in the flashbacks, right? It was confusing because when I saw him in the hospital I assumed he'd have a much longer period of convalescence but he seemed fine in the other successive flashbacks.


The events in the flashbacks did move quickly. I believe it has been established, though, that events presented in an episode's flashbacks are always sequential with respect to each other. That is, events in flashback scene 1 always occur before events in flashback scene 2, etc.

Another unique aspect of "Meet Kevin Johnson" was that we only "whooshed" into flashback once, had most of the episode in flashback, and whooshed back to current events near the end. Normally we jump back and forth during an episode. I don't recall them doing it that way before.


----------



## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

smickola said:


> And speaking of Walt, it looked to me like a different actor when they showed the brief silhouette of him in the window...his body seemed thicker...looks like they went out of their way to not show "tall Walt" off the island.


Was that a digitalized Walt? It does look like him, but i guess they didn't want to credit the actor or have to pay him. screencap


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> The events in the flashbacks did move quickly. I believe it has been established, though, that events presented in an episode's flashbacks are always sequential with respect to each other. That is, events in flashback scene 1 always occur before events in flashback scene 2, etc.
> 
> Another unique aspect of "Meet Kevin Johnson" was that we only "whooshed" into flashback once, had most of the episode in flashback, and whooshed back to current events near the end. Normally we jump back and forth during an episode. I don't recall them doing it that way before.


I think "The Other 48 Days" probably had more time devoted to flashback, but since it didn't start out in what was then "present day" time, it didn't have the whooshes at all. Also, off the top of my head, this might have been the only one where the flashback represented someone actually telling the story to another character(s).


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

smickola said:


> OK, so the island won't let Michael die...is this what happens when someone gets off the island? Did the island prevent Jack from killing himself in his flash-forward, by having the accident happen when he was trying to jump off the bridge?





Cindy1230 said:


> So the island finally lets him kill himself/die... why now/then?





danterner said:


> As for the island not letting Michael die "because it needs him", I find that to be very interesting. The island sure is powerful and able to exert its will and control events even off-island. Why, then, does it need Michael? Why use a middle-man, if it can impact events directly (like causing a gun not to fire, etc)?


I don't think the island has anything to do with it, it's the universe & fate as outlined by Mrs. Hawking. I think that the Others (and Locke) are misinterpreting the situation, that the island has nothing to do with it. At very least it would explain why the gun wouldn't work even though it's off-island.



JDHutt25 said:


> I thought Tom pulled his own gun. I thought I saw Michael's gun get knocked out of his hand, then Tom pulled his gun on Michael, which he then gave him, which, I think might have been rigged so Michael would think that the Island won't let him kill himself.


I could be wrong, and haven't watched it over, but it looked to me like Tom grabbed Michael's gun after he dropped it.



Mike Farrington said:


> I thought it was interesting that the Temple was a DHARMA station and not some place of worship/idolatry for those on the island. I didn't actually think it was going to be a station.


It's also possible that it's a temple converted to a station, which is where it got its name, although it doesn't seem likely given the names the other stations have.

I should also remind everyone, the previews after the show (after the credits, after the producer logos) are ABC's doing. Any revealing of O6 members is who ABC *thinks* the O6 are. It's likely they're correct, and I now think they're correct, but as we've been shown time and time again, they could be as wrong as any of us.

Greg


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Cindy1230 said:


> Was that a digitalized Walt? It does look like him, but i guess they didn't want to credit the actor or have to pay him. screencap


It didn't look like "Tall Walt". It looked like the young Walt.

My question is this...When Michael made it back to the real world, why didnt he let someone know where to look for the survivors? He just totally screwed everyone left on the Island. Sure, he could be prosecuted for killing Ana Lucia and Libby if he was found, but what about an anonymous tip?


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> I'm not going to post it myself, but I question whether to consider it a preview. It doesn't reveal anything from future episodes, it just confirms what we've seen in prior episodes.
> 
> It was never explicitly stated during any episode that Kate or Jack was one of the "Oceanic Six" as it was with Hurley, Sayid and Sun, yet we freely discuss their status. We're relying on the same type of extra-episodal information, are we not?


Gee during the trial it was pretty clear Kate and Jack were two of the six survivors of the crash. How much more explicit do you need?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

gchance said:


> I should also remind everyone, the previews after the show (after the credits, after the producer logos) are ABC's doing. Any revealing of O6 members is who ABC *thinks* the O6 are. It's likely they're correct, and I now think they're correct, but as we've been shown time and time again, they could be as wrong as any of us.
> 
> Greg


I'm sorry, and don't take this the wrong way, but you really SHOULDN'T have reminded everyone. I am so ready to let that argument die. Giving people a sliver of hope for why they could still be correct is a scary thought. The bruise I've given myself on my forehead from banging it on the desk may never heal.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

As far as when the flashback scenes could have been taking place, here are days in which Tom appeared:

67 (Michael leaves with Walt in Live Together, Die Alone)
69 (The Glass Ballerina)
70,71 (Every Man for Himself)
73 (I Do, Not in Portland, Stranger in a Strange Land)
74 (Stranger in a Strange Land)

80 (Par Avion, The Man From Tallahassee)
83 (The Brig)

88 (The Brig)

91 (The Man Behind The Curtain)
92, 93 (Through The Looking Glass - he is killed)

Only possible gaps I see are between days 74 and 80, and 83 and 88. Christmas decorations would have made sense at either time. The latter one seems more likely, since Michael would have been home for barely a week on day 75. His recovery in the hospital was pretty fast even by the latter time-frame, but for him to have arrived home, gotten depressed, crashed his car and recovered, all within 12 days at the most, is just urealistic.


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## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

gchance said:


> I should also remind everyone, the previews after the show (after the credits, after the producer logos) are ABC's doing. Any revealing of O6 members is who ABC *thinks* the O6 are. It's likely they're correct, and I now think they're correct, but as we've been shown time and time again, they could be as wrong as any of us.
> 
> Greg


OK well first of all, you just spoiled by telling the people who didn't watch it what the "pertinent information" was in the first place. If you want to preserve the idea of "Don't watch ABC's input", then don't reference what they are even talking about in the first place. I went waaaaay out of my way to try to not describe what piece of info was revealed. Clearly, this piece is too blurry a line for us to keep it unknown though. Yes, the previews give a clear indication of who the O6 are. If you want to know the questionable one (ones?) see my two times quoted spoiler posts.

Secondly, I'm fairly confident that who the members of the O6 are is way too important for ABC to indicate without confirming with the show itself first.

It never ceases to amaze me how inane this debate gets. The bulk of the viewers are going to watch it, if you want to deprive yourself of the information, don't make us all jump through friggin' hoops.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

lew said:


> Gee during the trial it was pretty clear Kate and Jack were two of the six survivors of the crash. How much more explicit do you need?


That's not my point. Aaron was clearly - oh jeez, here we go again, how can I phrase this without starting something like last week? - Many people would call him a "survivor." For anyone who wouldn't, the heart that is currently inside his chest, and the brain that is inside his skull, were beating and functioning while they were on the plane enclosed in the skin that now encloses Aaron's body. They continued to function after the crash, and he left the island and made it to civilization safely. Yet even after we knew that, because no one referred to him as a member of the Oceanic Six, there was, and to some there still is, doubt over whether he is a member.

Since the moniker "Oceanic Six" wasn't used in reference to Jack or Kate, we are essentially relying on what's been stated in podcasts, etc. to confirm their membership in the group. Yes, it was obvious without it, but many would consider it just as obvious about Aaron, yet the question still isn't settled. Some would make similar arguments about Ben - i.e., he was seen alive back in civilization, and he could have faked someone's identity who was on the plane. And there was a lot of controversy about Kate and some people were saying it was "obvious" even before "Eggtown." In fact the producers said it was Kate (as though the first appearance should have been enough to confirm it) before Eggtown aired.


----------



## acej80 (Jan 19, 2003)

jradford said:


> I'm sorry, and don't take this the wrong way, but you really SHOULDN'T have reminded everyone. I am so ready to let that argument die. Giving people a sliver of hope for why they could still be correct is a scary thought. The bruise I've given myself on my forehead from banging it on the desk may never heal.


:up:


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Ok maybe I didn't hear correctly but.

Didn't Michaels mom ask him where he was for 2 weeks, while michael was actually on the island for 2 months? more time descrepancies? or is the 2 weeks the time Michael was in the hospital?

Edit: nevermind, I went back and watched the scene with his mom again and she said over 2 months. I must have been half asleep last night.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

gchance said:


> I should also remind everyone, the previews after the show (after the credits, after the producer logos) are ABC's doing. Any revealing of O6 members is who ABC *thinks* the O6 are. It's likely they're correct, and I now think they're correct, but as we've been shown time and time again, they could be as wrong as any of us.


I can't recall; can you remind me of some examples of where an ABC promo was wrong?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> I can't recall; can you remind me of some examples of where an ABC promo was wrong?


I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

getreal said:


> How did Michael & Walt get to NYC?? Obviously they are NOT part of the Oceanic 6.


It was nice to see that piece of information, that they definitely are not part of the O6.
Other than that, I didn't think this episode was very interesting. Except for the very last scene.


Amnesia said:


> This episode took place before the "rescue" of the 6. Walt or Michael still could manage to join the other rescuees and have the media think that they had never been off the island...


Oops. Good point!
But from the preview for next episode


Spoiler



the preview clearly shows who the O6 are and Michael's not one of them


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Sirius Black said:


> Which is more plausible? That Widmore, a man with apparently unlimited resources did the plane crash coverup or Ben, a man with no money or job off the island. How long after the plane crashed was the plane wreck discovered?


So how do Ben, Tom, and Batmanuel get to run a corporation on the outside world that has enough of a rep to interest Juliette without money?



Sirius Black said:


> I found it interesting that Mr. Friendly was able to leave the island at all. How did he leave? The submarine was already destroyed by that point. His response to Michael's question was interesting too. They can leave the island "when we need to."


That's something I'd like to see answered.



gchance said:


> I could be wrong, and haven't watched it over, but it looked to me like Tom grabbed Michael's gun after he dropped it.


I wonder if Tom switched guns then and they were able to get to it in the Pawn Shop. (Does the Pawn Shop guy work for Ben?)


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I can't recall; can you remind me of some examples of where an ABC promo was wrong?


Not wrong, more like misleading.

"Next week... someone will DIE!"
"THREE BIG MYSTERIES WILL BE REVEALED!" Do you remember THAT one?

But in general promos for TV shows are misleading anyway. The most recent one that I saw just a few weeks ago was Nip/Tuck. I won't get into specifics for spoiler reasons, but the previous episode had a cliffhanger ending. The preview for the next episode showed something that looked like one resolution to the cliffhanger, when in reality that was something completely unrelated to the cliffhanger. It's just something you need to expect with show previews.

Greg


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

gchance said:


> Not wrong, more like misleading.
> 
> "Next week... someone will DIE!"
> "THREE BIG MYSTERIES WILL BE REVEALED!" Do you remember THAT one?
> ...


Did someone _not_ die following whichever preview you're referring to?

"Big" is somewhat subjective, and people realize that. There's nothing subjective about identifying six people, so I don't think that's a fair comparison.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

JYoung said:


> That's something I'd like to see answered. [how did Mr. Friendly leave when the sub had been destroyed?]


It's been answered. Well, not specifically how he left, but we know that Michael and Walt didn't need the submarine.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I wonder if Tom switched guns then and they were able to get to it in the Pawn Shop. (Does the Pawn Shop guy work for Ben?)


Michael's gun fired a successful shot, so it wasn't a dud out of the pawn shop. Michael aimed at Mr. Friendly, and as Mr. Friendly swats it away, it fires.

If one wants to discount the supernatural explanation Mr. Friendly gave, then I guess one could argue that Mr. Friendly swapped out the gun with a replica (since Michael was being tailed, they could have found out the type of gun/ammo he bought).


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

But we were told both Jack and Kate were two of the six survivors of Oceanic flight 815. The fact that they were survivors was publicly known. The 6 survivors of Oceanic 815 are named the "Oceanic Six". Jack and Kate are 2 of the 6 survivors of 815, therefore they have to be part of the "Oceanic Six". Sorry no other logical conclusion is possible.

It was certainly fair to speculate if Ben manipulated his identity so he could be be part of the Oceanic Six. We were never given information, either way.

I thought the discussion on Aaron was pretty stupid. I guess the writers could have set it up so he wasn't part of the "Oceanic Six". One theory (didn't make much sense to me) was Claire and Aaron both died on the island. Kate's Aaron was Sawyer's kid, and was born after Kate left the island. She named him after Claire's Aaron. Again that theory makes no sense to me, Aaron was much too big for the timeline to work.



jeff125va said:


> Since the moniker "Oceanic Six" wasn't used in reference to Jack or Kate, we are essentially relying on what's been stated in podcasts, etc. to confirm their membership in the group. Yes, it was obvious without it, but many would consider it just as obvious about Aaron, yet the question still isn't settled. Some would make similar arguments about Ben - i.e., he was seen alive back in civilization, and he could have faked someone's identity who was on the plane. And there was a lot of controversy about Kate and some people were saying it was "obvious" even before "Eggtown." In fact the producers said it was Kate (as though the first appearance should have been enough to confirm it) before Eggtown aired.


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## JDHutt25 (Dec 27, 2004)

Mike Farrington said:


> Michael's gun fired a successful shot, so it wasn't a dud out of the pawn shop. Michael aimed at Mr. Friendly, and as Mr. Friendly swats it away, it fires.
> 
> If one wants to discount the supernatural explanation Mr. Friendly gave, then I guess one could argue that Mr. Friendly swapped out the gun with a replica (since Michael was being tailed, they could have found out the type of gun/ammo he bought).


I need to re-watch this scene. I could have sworn Michael's gun got swatted away and Tom pulled out one of his own.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

By the way, did anyone else get irritated by the obvious dubbing of Ben's voice when he was telling Alex and Carl to go to the temple? He said "If they knew who you were - " and then he says in a different sounding audio clip (with camera on Alex and her mom) "that you were my daughter, they would use you to get to me". It just sounded so different that it took me out of the scene.
I guess they were really adamant on getting a lot of exposition in this episode.


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

It almost looks like a little microphone on Alex' ear. screencap


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

lew said:


> But we were told both Jack and Kate were two of the six survivors of Oceanic flight 815. The fact that they were survivors was publicly known. The 6 survivors of Oceanic 815 are named the "Oceanic Six". Jack and Kate are 2 of the 6 survivors of 815, therefore they have to be part of the "Oceanic Six". Sorry no other logical conclusion is possible.


I agree. My point is that many people, when we first saw Aaron at the end of "Eggtown," thought the same regarding his status.



lew said:


> It was certainly fair to speculate if Ben manipulated his identity so he could be be part of the Oceanic Six. We were never given information, either way.


Possibly, but that could be considered just as illogical as you and I consider the notion Jack or Kate weren't confirmed as members (by "Eggtown" anyway). Who knows what wacky theories people might have tried to come up about Jack and Kate had it not been stated explicitly outside the episodes?



lew said:


> I thought the discussion on Aaron was pretty stupid. I guess the writers could have set it up so he wasn't part of the "Oceanic Six". One theory (didn't make much sense to me) was Claire and Aaron both died on the island. Kate's Aaron was Sawyer's kid, and was born after Kate left the island. She named him after Claire's Aaron. Again that theory makes no sense to me, Aaron was much too big for the timeline to work.


That all ties in to my point. A lot of theories that make no sense to you, but none about Jack and Kate even though they weren't even referred to using the "Oceanic Six" moniker. Heck, there were even people saying that Sayid might have been lying when he called himself a member.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

gchance said:


> Not wrong, more like misleading.
> 
> "Next week... someone will DIE!"


Yes, and Karl died.


> "THREE BIG MYSTERIES WILL BE REVEALED!" Do you remember THAT one?


I do remember that; though I don't remember what specific episode, I remember the "mysteries" were lame (if there were even three). But I don't think this is the same, I don't recall a debate about 'How many mysteries are going to be revealed this week' before that promo. And the part of the ad that recapped the O6 wasn't ambiguous at all; it said "All of the Oceanic 6 have been revealed"; while scenes with 6 characters flashed across the screen - there were not 7 or 8 to let the mystery linger (like all the characters they flashed when they said someone would die). I think that promo was deliberate to put the issue to rest. In a recent podcast they did say that if there were any questions about who the O6 were, they'd list them after episode 8. I think that was the list.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

One thing I found interesting: It didn't even seem to occur to Alex that Ben might have set them up. By shouting out that she was Ben's daughter, she seemed to think that it was freighter people firing at them. For a moment I was wondering whether Charlotte would pop out or some of the Others. It's like she regained all trust in Ben. Or she's stupid, which I've never really thought about her.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Yes promos are often misleading or exaggerating, but I can't remember one that was an outright lie. The list of the O6 in the preview for next episode would have to be an outright lie for it to be dismissed, and I just can't imagine that's the case. The whole POINT of that part of the preview seemed to be to finally put that issue to rest.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> Yes promos are often misleading or exaggerating, but I can't remember one that was an outright lie. The list of the O6 in the preview for next episode would have to be an outright lie for it to be dismissed, and I just can't imagine that's the case. The whole POINT of that part of the preview seemed to be to finally put that issue to rest.


Yes, in fact I wonder if that bit wasn't done at the request of the producers when they realized that a lot of people weren't accepting the obvious answer...


----------



## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

danterner said:


> I could be misremembering, but I think the dialog was more like:
> 
> MICHAEL: You can leave the island?
> MR. FRIENDLY: Some of us can.
> ...


My original quote of Tom's was incorrect. This is how it really happened. Still I completely agree that it is a very interesting response.



JYoung said:


> That's something I'd like to see answered.


Michael didn't know about the submarine getting blown up. Maybe my timelines are backwards - of course, Tom got killed while on the island after the submarine was destroyed.

Have we ever determined why some of the Others don't appear to age? Back in the episode where we find out a bit about Ben's origins, was Tom among the Others from the jungle? I know there was another person who definitely didn't appear to age in the years between Ben being a kid and growing up.

I think, unless Roussou (sp?) gets some special help from the island, she is dead or at the very least mortally wounded. Jack isn't around to do any surgery.

Is it April 24th yet?


----------



## MitchO (Nov 7, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Yes, and Karl died.
> I do remember that; though I don't remember what specific episode, I remember the "mysteries" were lame (if there were even three).


IIRC, this was the "What do Jack's tattoos mean?" episode.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I think "The Other 48 Days" probably had more time devoted to flashback, but since it didn't start out in what was then "present day" time, it didn't have the whooshes at all. Also, off the top of my head, this might have been the only one where the flashback represented someone actually telling the story to another character(s).


I noticed that too. It appeared that Michael/Kevin had been telling the story to Sayid and Desmond when they came back, as opposed to him just remembering.


tiams said:


> It didn't look like "Tall Walt". It looked like the young Walt.
> 
> My question is this...When Michael made it back to the real world, why didnt he let someone know where to look for the survivors? He just totally screwed everyone left on the Island. Sure, he could be prosecuted for killing Ana Lucia and Libby if he was found, but what about an anonymous tip?


He probably has no idea where to tell them to look. And he was clearly trying to be unnoticed as a passenger from 815.


jeff125va said:


> As far as when the flashback scenes could have been taking place, here are days in which Tom appeared:
> 
> 67 (Michael leaves with Walt in Live Together, Die Alone)
> 69 (The Glass Ballerina)
> ...


When was the sub blown up? And how long do we think it took for Michael and Walt to get rescued? I don't think the left the island one day and were back in NY the next. I'd imagine that part took at least a week.

And Tom still appeared to be at the hotel in NY when he called Michael/Kevin at the port at Fiji, so he was in NY for a few days at least.


jeff125va said:


> It's been answered. Well, not specifically how he left, but we know that Michael and Walt didn't need the submarine.


They didn't need to the sub because Ben gave them a boat. But after that, we've not seen any indication that the Others had any means of traveling off the island other than the sub.

Edit: How were the Others getting back and forth from the other island where they kept Kate and Sawyer in cages? Didn't we see them have another boat similar to the one Michael and Walt took?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Sirius Black said:


> Have we ever determined why some of the Others don't appear to age? Back in the episode where we find out a bit about Ben's origins, was Tom among the Others from the jungle? I know there was another person who definitely didn't appear to age in the years between Ben being a kid and growing up.


I thought Richard was the one and only person who has been shown not to visibly age.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> When was the sub blown up? And how long do we think it took for Michael and Walt to get rescued? I don't think the left the island one day and were back in NY the next. I'd imagine that part took at least a week.
> 
> And Tom still appeared to be at the hotel in NY when he called Michael/Kevin at the port at Fiji, so he was in NY for a few days at least.
> 
> ...


The sub was blown up on day 80, which happens to be right at the end of the first Tom on-island gap (but I have a theory about that too). I'm not sure how relevant it is because, as stated, they could have used any boat like Michael did. But, as you point out, they don't seem to think they can get off the island without it. I mean, wouldn't Juliet or Jack have said, "well get us another boat like Michael used" ? So maybe they had no other such boat? Maybe the sub destruction is relevant? I don't remember whether it was shown at the dock in days leading up to that. I think Locke had just gotten over there that day and blew it up that night. The timing would fit with the first gap of Tom not being seen.

What you said about Tom calling Michael in Fiji from the hotel could be significant in either scenario (first or second gap). How long does it take to get to Fiji?

Michael left on day 67. For Tom to have returned from NY by day 80, he would have to have left NY by day 79 at the absolute latest. So if the events with himand Michael took place on say days 76-77, and say Michael got home on day 68 or 69 at the earliest, that's about 8 days max between arriving home, crashing, and getting out of the hospital. Plus the time to account for Michael leaving for Fiji in time for Tom to call him by day 79. I don't know whether it works or not.

But, the first gap is a day longer, at least in terms of Tom's absence, than the second. But in that one we don't have to take Michael's travel (from the island to home) and recovery time into account.

I forget. I remember Karl and Kate and Sawyer using those non-motorized boats that I don't know the name of.

Oh, and my other theory was that Tom's first absence was picking up Anthony Cooper in Tallahassee. We really have no indication that I can recall that he was there, but it fits with the timeline.


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## goMO (Dec 29, 2004)

maybe it was obvious to everyone, but I felt that Ben sent Carl and Russeau with Alex specifically so they would be killed. It seemed like a setup to me. Also, they weren't shot with regular guns, it was with some kind of darts or something. Weren't these used previously by the "others" when going after people in the jungle?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> The sub was blown up on day 80, which happens to be right at the end of the first Tom on-island gap (but I have a theory about that too). I'm not sure how relevant it is because, as stated, they could have used any boat like Michael did. But, as you point out, they don't seem to think they can get off the island without it. I mean, wouldn't Juliet or Jack have said, "well get us another boat like Michael used" ? So maybe they had no other such boat? Maybe the sub destruction is relevant? I don't remember whether it was shown at the dock in days leading up to that. I think Locke had just gotten over there that day and blew it up that night. The timing would fit with the first gap of Tom not being seen.
> 
> What you said about Tom calling Michael in Fiji from the hotel could be significant in either scenario (first or second gap). How long does it take to get to Fiji?
> 
> ...


I'm going to say that Tom's appearance in NY during this episode was definitely during the second gap (Days 83-88). That allows more time for Michael to get home, get depressed, try to kill himself, recover, etc.


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## acej80 (Jan 19, 2003)

MickeS said:


> Yes promos are often misleading or exaggerating, but I can't remember one that was an outright lie. The list of the O6 in the preview for next episode would have to be an outright lie for it to be dismissed, and I just can't imagine that's the case. The whole POINT of that part of the preview seemed to be to finally put that issue to rest.


To add to this, this part was a summary of what happened in the past (presented to viewers), just like how most (All?) episodes start with "Previously on LOST"; bits of past shows are replayed to remind folks parts of the show that happened previously that is now relevant to the story going forward.


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

so... imho the question is - is Michael's gun his own gun when he does attempt to fire it...
pawnshop gun:
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg162/getlostpodcast/meetkev-00009.jpg
tom & Michael in the Alley
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg162/getlostpodcast/meetkev-00008.jpg
Tom's gun looks a lot like the final picture of the gun when Michael's in his Apartment again.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg162/getlostpodcast/00110.jpg

I wish there was a better pic out there of the gun when the pawn shop guy is handing it to him. But I thought it was black. (no longer have the recording to go back to)


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Sirius Black said:


> My original quote of Tom's was incorrect. This is how it really happened. Still I completely agree that it is a very interesting response.


Yes, interesting. Like the quote: "Every living person on this island will die.".


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

goMO said:


> maybe it was obvious to everyone, but I felt that Ben sent Carl and Russeau with Alex specifically so they would be killed. It seemed like a setup to me. Also, they weren't shot with regular guns, it was with some kind of darts or something. Weren't these used previously by the "others" when going after people in the jungle?


It wasn't darts, as there were visible wounds. It seemed more like a silenced gun.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

lew said:


> It was certainly fair to speculate if Ben manipulated his identity so he could be be part of the Oceanic Six. We were never given information, either way.


But with Tom seemingly getting off the island AFTER the sub was blown up, I'm thinking Ben doesn't need to pretend to be an O6 since he can probably come and go as he pleases.



MickeS said:


> Yes promos are often misleading or exaggerating, but I can't remember one that was an outright lie. The list of the O6 in the preview for next episode would have to be an outright lie for it to be dismissed, and I just can't imagine that's the case. The whole POINT of that part of the preview seemed to be to finally put that issue to rest.





acej80 said:


> To add to this, this part was a summary of what happened in the past (presented to viewers), just like how most (All?) episodes start with "Previously on LOST"; bits of past shows are replayed to remind folks parts of the show that happened previously that is now relevant to the story going forward.


Yeah, it really wasn't a "next on LOST" clip. It was a, "Now that we've learned all this..." kind of thing and quickly flashing summaries of what all has happened so far.



goMO said:


> maybe it was obvious to everyone, but I felt that Ben sent Carl and Russeau with Alex specifically so they would be killed. It seemed like a setup to me. Also, they weren't shot with regular guns, it was with some kind of darts or something. Weren't these used previously by the "others" when going after people in the jungle?


I kinda got that feeling too. We know Ben didn't want her with Karl and he probably didn't want to share her with Russeau. And no one ever shot at her.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I'm going to say that Tom's appearance in NY during this episode was definitely during the second gap (Days 83-88). That allows more time for Michael to get home, get depressed, try to kill himself, recover, etc.


I'd like to rewatch this episode and figure out if everything between when we first and last saw Tom in NY could have happened within 5 days.

It would be interesting if we ever actually did see Tom in Tallahassee, which has to have been in the first gap, but I can't imagine why they'd revisit that story line in the first place.

But I think this is the first time we've had any clue in the flash-forwards about when the fake 815 wreckage is discovered.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

goMO said:


> Also, they weren't shot with regular guns, it was with some kind of darts or something. Weren't these used previously by the "others" when going after people in the jungle?





Mike Farrington said:


> It wasn't darts, as there were visible wounds. It seemed more like a silenced gun.


I agree with Mike that they were definitely using a serious sniper weapon (technical term i believe  ), but not the same as the guns the freighter guys were using..which were mp5s as my husband pointed out to me. But i'm sure widmore has access to a vast array of weapons. Hard to pinpoint who the shooters are based on the weapon alone.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

goMO said:


> maybe it was obvious to everyone, but I felt that Ben sent Carl and Russeau with Alex specifically so they would be killed. It seemed like a setup to me. Also, they weren't shot with regular guns, it was with some kind of darts or something. Weren't these used previously by the "others" when going after people in the jungle?


I took it be a silenced sniper rifle.


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## Sirius Black (Dec 26, 2001)

NoThru22 said:


> I took it be a silenced sniper rifle.


That's what I thought as well. That doesn't mean it wasn't a set up for two of the three of them. If it is true that all pregnant women on the island die then Alex would be a miracle child. We've been told nothing of Russeau's past but I thought she'd been there for all of Alex's life. Ben is her father, after all and Russeau crashed/landed/shipwrecked on the island before that. If all of that is true, Alex is definitely worth more alive than dead. If there is any legitimate research still going on, that is. Why did Russeau survive? How?

What happened to the Hanso Foundation?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Sirius Black said:


> That's what I thought as well. That doesn't mean it wasn't a set up for two of the three of them. If it is true that all pregnant women on the island die then Alex would be a miracle child. We've been told nothing of Russeau's past but I thought she'd been there for all of Alex's life. Ben is her father, after all and Russeau crashed/landed/shipwrecked on the island before that. If all of that is true, Alex is definitely worth more alive than dead. If there is any legitimate research still going on, that is. Why did Russeau survive? How?
> 
> What happened to the Hanso Foundation?


I think you're misremembering. Danielle crashed on the island when she was about seven months pregnant. She then gave birth to Alex and the Others stole the baby. Alex was raised by Ben and believed that Ben was her father, but he has no biological ties to her. Alex is no more a miracle child than Aaron.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think you're misremembering. Danielle crashed on the island when she was about seven months pregnant. She then gave birth to Alex and the Others stole the baby. Alex was raised by Ben and believed that Ben was her father, but he has no biological ties to her. Alex is no more a miracle child than Aaron.


He's definitely misremembering, but as far as her value as a hostage, all that really matters is that Ben cares about her as his daughter. Well, that's all assuming of course that the people shooting are really freighter people and not the Others themselves, and that Ben's intentions were really for them to get to safety.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I thought the "Not Yet" gag on the bomb was cheesy and I don't know how I feel about "The Island" not letting Michael die. So the Island is a conscious entity now? And all powerful, too? How that mechanism works out will be interesting to see, that could be a big weakness in the overall story - for me, anyway.

I also thought that the sniper(s) may have been Others rather than Freighties. But then again, maybe that was the errand Lapidus was running, delivering the sniper squad to the Island; it was the guy who was shooting clay pigeons off the side of the boat who told Frank not to be late at the beginning of last weeks episode. 

I want to be among the first to declare: I think Alex is pregnant (just a WAG). 

If Rousseau is really dead/dying, I hope the next episode is her flashback as she passes away; never addressing her back-story would be a big cop-out. 

I liked that Libby was carrying blankets in the hospital, just like she was when Michael shot her.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Thought of another milestone related to the timeline - Naomi parachutes to the island on day 87. That could complicate things. Was Tom really still in NY when he called Michael?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I thought the "Not Yet" gag on the bomb was cheesy and I don't know how I feel about "The Island" not letting Michael die. So the Island is a conscious entity now? And all powerful, too? How that mechanism works out will be interesting to see, that could be a big weakness in the overall story - for me, anyway.


Locke's always referred to the Island as an entity. It could be argued that it's a character just like any other, as much as the Enterprise is a character in the original Star Trek.

That said, I don't see the Island as an entity, that's a misinterpretation on the part of Locke & Tom (possibly all the Others if they feel the same way). I just think it's the universe correcting itself.

Greg


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Scubee said:


> It almost looks like a little microphone on Alex' ear. screencap


Could this be a blooper?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I don't know how I feel about "The Island" not letting Michael die. So the Island is a conscious entity now? And all powerful, too? How that mechanism works out will be interesting to see, that could be a big weakness in the overall story - for me, anyway.


Yeah, that is a potentially big issue for me too.


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## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I'm glad the writers strike ended. If not, that would be one terrible season finale. (and yes, I know no one planned it that way) I'm glad they get to finish it right with the next set of 5


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Thought of another milestone related to the timeline - Naomi parachutes to the island on day 87. That could complicate things. Was Tom really still in NY when he called Michael?


It appeared that he was, but I don't remember if there was anything definitive. Of course, that was before they left Fiji, which was at least a couple of days before the boat got in position to send Naomi. I'm thinking that none of the possible time scenarios really make sense here.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> It appeared that he was, but I don't remember if there was anything definitive. Of course, that was before they left Fiji, which was at least a couple of days before the boat got in position to send Naomi. I'm thinking that none of the possible time scenarios really make sense here.


Unless we connect it with the experiment on the bunny shown in the "Orchid" orientation video. 

Maybe by "some of us can" he means "some of us can teleport <or something like that> away from the island"


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

GDG76 said:


> I'm glad the writers strike ended. If not, that would be one terrible season finale. (and yes, I know no one planned it that way) I'm glad they get to finish it right with the next set of 5


The next episode would have been the season finale.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> Was Tom really still in NY when he called Michael?


Looks like it. There is no screencap yet.... but it's night and you see a window behind Tom with a highrise building lit up across the way.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

was Ben in his hidden room when he communicated with Michael on the boat?










Is this just prior to Naomi showing up on the island?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

gchance said:


> Locke's always referred to the Island as an entity. It could be argued that it's a character just like any other, as much as the Enterprise is a character in the original Star Trek.


As an entity or general character I can accept, I mean it's common for a vessel or a place to have a 'personality' in fiction - and in real life. But, I don't recall the Enterprise making conscious decisions or being self-aware, much less omnipotent.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

goMO said:


> maybe it was obvious to everyone, but I felt that Ben sent Carl and Russeau with Alex specifically so they would be killed. It seemed like a setup to me.


Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Ben set them up.


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> But, I don't recall the Enterprise making conscious decisions or being self-aware,


The Ultimate Computer


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> The Ultimate Computer


Yes, well the computer plugged into the Enterprise was what took over, not the Enterprise itself. The Enterprise was under the M5's control.

Also, that was one episode not an overarching storyline.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I don't really have much of a problem with a storyline that would show that the island was some sort of intelligent being, for example, that could explain a lot of things and be a fun twist.

I DO have a problem if the island was a being, but could control a hand gun in New York City. For some reason, that stretches believability for me (even though both scenarios are impossible).


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

latrobe7 said:


> Yes, well the computer plugged into the Enterprise was what took over, not the Enterprise itself. The Enterprise was under the M5's control.
> 
> Also, that was one episode not an overarching storyline.


I don't understand. Does the island _have_ to be like the Enterprise for some reason?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> I don't understand. Does the island _have_ to be like the Enterprise for some reason?


Don't ask me, I didn't make the analogy. I was pointing out that if the Island is making conscious decisions and driving the story, it's more of an integral character than the Enterprise ever was; I illustrated that by saying "I don't recall the Enterprise making conscious decisions or being self-aware"; which you quoted with a link to the synopsis of "The Ultimate Computer". I assume to demonstrate that the Enterprise was self-aware?

My response was to indicate that that's not the same as how the Island is being represented.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jeff125va said:


> The sub was blown up on day 80, which happens to be right at the end of the first Tom on-island gap (but I have a theory about that too). I'm not sure how relevant it is because, as stated, they could have used any boat like Michael did. But, as you point out, they don't seem to think they can get off the island without it. I mean, wouldn't Juliet or Jack have said, "well get us another boat like Michael used" ? So maybe they had no other such boat? Maybe the sub destruction is relevant?


Ben told Juliet and Jack that there was no other way to send them home, but, here's a shocker, clearly Ben lied. 



Mike Farrington said:


> Yes, interesting. Like the quote: "Every living person on this island will die.".


In the real world that quote is like,"everyone who eats carrots will die." True enough. On the island tho, it might be a new revelation. As it is now, some of the people on the island don't seem to have to worry about ever dying. Or at least not of a disease. Even gunshot wounds seem picky about who they kill. So are they going to destroy the island magic?

Or maybe it just means they're going to storm in and kill every living person.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> The next episode would have been the season finale.


No, this episode (number 8 of the planned 16) was the last episode finished by the writers before the strike.

What you might be tripping you up is ABC's original broadcast plan once the strike ended. They announced that they would show the first seven (up to _Ji Yeon_), then come back with this episode plus the post-strike five on April 17. Shortly after they announced that plan though, they changed gears to go 8 and 5, and come back on April 24.

The point of me bringing this all up is that I would have been happier if they would have stuck to the original plan. I think the end of _Ji Yeon_, though I didn't like the episode much, would have been a better breaking point.

I really liked this episode but the way we're left hanging is uncool.


----------



## jdfs (Oct 21, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> It wasn't darts, as there were visible wounds. It seemed more like a silenced gun.


Or a sniper at long range. Bullets through the air don't make a lot of noise, just the initial detonation. Don't know why they would be using silencers.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Unless we connect it with the experiment on the bunny shown in the "Orchid" orientation video.
> 
> Maybe by "some of us can" he means "some of us can teleport <or something like that> away from the island"


The time line doesn't work at all if Tom has to take a boat or sub to Fuji and then take a scheduled flight. Probably looking at a day and half trip. It might work if the island is less than an hour from an island with a landing strip with a private jet.

I agree it works best if he can be teleported.

My guess is we're not suppose to look at the time line as carefully as we are (day to day basis) but rather assume Tom has a week or so (maybe 10 days) instead of the 5 days a poster earlier in this thread calculated (days 83-88).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hanumang said:


> I really liked this episode but the way we're left hanging is uncool.


On the other hand, with another few weeks of, well, THAT argument, the universe may well have imploded. At least we're spared that, or those of us who watched the teaser at the end are anyway...


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

MickeS said:


> I don't really have much of a problem with a storyline that would show that the island was some sort of intelligent being, for example, that could explain a lot of things and be a fun twist.
> 
> I DO have a problem if the island was a being, but could control a hand gun in New York City. For some reason, that stretches believability for me (even though both scenarios are impossible).


I'd choose to look at it as the Island "won't let him" due to some subtle brain reprogramming, here resulting in a subconscious refusal to allow a suicide to succeed. Now, if Michael were to jump from a building I'm sure the Island wouldn't cause the ground to become spongy & save him. But the effect would prevent him from jumping. That would still count as "won't let him" to me.

Kinda like with Jack.


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## hanumang (Jan 28, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> On the other hand, with another few weeks of, well, THAT argument, the universe may well have imploded. At least we're spared that, or those of us who watched the teaser at the end are anyway...


Yeah, you've got me there. I could only imagine how dug in both sides would have gotten had there been a multi-week break after _Ji Yeon_.

Lost - Lindelof mentions on many occasions - takes direct inspiration from shows like The Twiight Zone and X-Files, so I'm comfortable with the island being able to affect things like Michael's suicide attempts, though I understand why non-believers find that dorky.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> The events in the flashbacks did move quickly. I believe it has been established, though, that events presented in an episode's flashbacks are always sequential with respect to each other. That is, events in flashback scene 1 always occur before events in flashback scene 2, etc.
> 
> Another unique aspect of "Meet Kevin Johnson" was that we only "whooshed" into flashback once, had most of the episode in flashback, and whooshed back to current events near the end. Normally we jump back and forth during an episode. I don't recall them doing it that way before.


That may be because this flashback was a depiction of Michael telling his story out loud to Sayid and Desmond, and not the usual character back story we're used to seeing.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> On the other hand, with another few weeks of, well, THAT argument, the universe may well have imploded. At least we're spared that, or those of us who watched the teaser at the end are anyway...


I guess I was wrong. It happens occasionally.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

jdfs said:


> Or a sniper at long range. Bullets through the air don't make a lot of noise, just the initial detonation. Don't know why they would be using silencers.


In all that time, I think the sound of the firing would have eventually reached the targets. I didn't hear any faint shots after the impacts.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> was Ben in his hidden room when he communicated with Michael on the boat?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks like he's in his secret room in his wheelchair, which he used briefly after his surgery (when he stopped using it, I can't remember).



Rob Helmerichs said:


> On the other hand, with another few weeks of, well, THAT argument, the universe may well have imploded. At least we're spared that, or those of us who watched the teaser at the end are anyway...


Since there was really no information about the Oceanic Six revealed in this episode, the promo that aired after last week's episode (had it been the final episode before the break) would have likely started with "All of the Oceanic Six survivors have been revealed, and you'll soon find out how they got off the island."


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Cindy1230 said:


> Captain Gault has the black box which he said Widmore retrieved...


I'm sorry, you got that wrong.. It was Captain Gaunt.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The official Lost podcast is out today.

The debate is officially over.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

goMO said:


> maybe it was obvious to everyone, but I felt that Ben sent Carl and Russeau with Alex specifically so they would be killed. It seemed like a setup to me.


This is definitely what happened. You can see it foreshadowed by how Ben is looking (with anger) at the way Karl has his arm around Alex's waist, just before he gives them the map. He's definitely expecting both Karl and Russeau to be killed. I'm sure Alex is perfectly safe. I'm quite confident that the killers were the Others. Now Ben has Alex exactly where he wants her: "safe" with the Others, and no Karl or Russeau. If his dealings with Juliette are any indication, he doesn't seem to much care whether they hate him as long as he can get them to do what he wants.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

MitchO said:


> Who had post #63 in the "someone will reference the previews spoiler info" pool?
> 
> Personally I watch the "Next" info and think it is vital, but there may be some people here fanatical enough to not want to know that yet, Ace.


LOL.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> I'm sorry, you got that wrong.. It was Captain Gaunt.


Clean out your ears. It was Captain Goth!


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Sawyer - short part this week, but great acting in it.. "THAT Michael??"

"Why are you on this boat?" "I'm here to die".. Made more sense 2nd time through.

When Michael is speeding the car into the dock/crate-thing, his odometer is 1675.8 (two of the numbers in there - 16 and 8). I've noticed that in all of the flashbacks, the numbers are pretty much everywhere, and in the flash forwards the numbers are never shown (un-interesting numbers are used for license plates, etc). So, if some event happens on the island that fixes the valenzetti equations or something, that probably happens sometime after he hits the dock.
(He's going like 65 mph, btw)

Michael's mother says "So until you can explain to me where you were for over two months, and what happened, you gave up your rights"... Why WOULDN'T he tell his mother the story at that point? At that point, he hadn't promised to not say anything, had he?

"More work to do".. that's at least the 3rd time we've heard that.

There are a lot of files in Lost..

Thailand was where the bodies came from.. Isn't that where Jack went?

Coordinates are enough to find the island.. (sounds obvious, but we actually didn't know that until now)

Miles: 80% of the people on this boat are lying about something.

When he chucked the phone, and it floated, I half expected him to panic about it being visible/floating.

I'd thought that Naomi's helicopter crashed - that they maybe had two choppers.. There's only one there on the boat. Frank argued with her saying he'd been piloting forever and that HE should be able to go first and she argued no.. (so it's not like he piloted and she jumped..).. So what's up with that?

Hey.. wait a second.. Michael asked Tom "so, you can just *leave*??".. That might make sense for like Bernard to ask, but Michael JUST LEFT.. (he took a boat on the heading Ben told him, and somehow got off). How does Michael's question to Tom make sense, given that it's Michael asking it? That almost seems to hint that it was particularly *difficult* for Michael to leave (despite the fact that this episode seems to want to dismiss the details of Michael and Walt getting back to civilization, at least for now).

Too tired to finish thread, and I don't want to lose this post, so I'm posting it without removing any smeeks. Note to self: in this thread, made it to post #121, and in my rewatch, to 0:45.


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## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> Also, I know for you people that don't watch the commercials and such you won't know what I'm talknig about, but during the commercial breaks right before it came back to Lost, did anyone else notice the subliminals advertising the return of The Mole. I'm pretty excited about that!


I can't believe how often this comes up! They were NOT subliminal messages. DirecTV, Dish, and cable companies, are allowed to replace some of the network commercials with their own. What happens is, in order to make sure that they don't put advertising over the program material, they make their commercials about 1 second shorter than the actual break. What you see is the end of the "overlayed" commercial, than about 1 second or less of the original commercial, then the program restarts. I asked TNT about this once when my local cable company started putting stupid ads on their channel, and they said it was part of the agreement and perfectly legal.


Turtleboy said:


> I found it interesting that Mr. Friendly was able to leave the island at all. How did he leave? The submarine was already destroyed by that point. His response to Michael's question was interesting too. They can leave the island "when we need to."





stellie93 said:


> Ben told Juliet and Jack that there was no other way to send them home, but, here's a shocker, clearly Ben lied.


I know the timeline probably does not work out very well, but I think Ben was telling the truth, and without the sub, travel to the island and from it is very difficult. His wanting Locke to blow the sub was pretty emphatic, and he had a bit riding on the Others not being able to leave anymore. I strongly feel that the writers will claim that Tom returned to the island by the sub just prior to Locke destroying it. They can always blame the temporal compression effect if necesssary.

The actor who plays Walt could not be shown because he has grown--a lot! They could not have the scenes of the two of them on the boat leaving the island, being found, and making their way back to NY because Walt just would not look like Walt. They simply could not do it, so they left those scenes out. No real mystery. The show is fiction, but they *DO* have to deal with reality when making it.


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## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> I can't believe how often this comes up! They were NOT subliminal messages. DirecTV, Dish, and cable companies, are allowed to replace some of the network commercials with their own. What happens is, in order to make sure that they don't put advertising over the program material, they make their commercials about 1 second shorter than the actual break. What you see is the end of the "overlayed" commercial, than about 1 second or less of the original commercial, then the program restarts. I asked TNT about this once when my local cable company started putting stupid ads on their channel, and they said it was part of the agreement and perfectly legal.


First, this was a prime-time first run network broadcast. No one messes with that. Second, this was not the only ABC show with these commercials. And third, according to this, these were "flash teases" for the relaunch of _The Mole_, and were very intentional.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> The official Lost podcast is out today.
> 
> The debate is officially over.


Don't leave us hanging, man. Were they sleeping together or not?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

wprager said:


> Wait, doesn't citrus explode if you time travel with it?


 ...


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> I think we've known Tom was gay for quite a while. It's not news.


Yeah. It was in all the magazines.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> Ben told Juliet and Jack that there was no other way to send them home, but, here's a shocker, clearly Ben lied.


But they watched Michael leave the island without a submarine. Maybe I'm thinking of it in terms of the sub having been the last boat of any type vs. a submarine being the only kind of boat that would work. I'm thinking they would have at least said "don't you have another boat like Michael used?" or something like that.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> In all that time, I think the sound of the firing would have eventually reached the targets. I didn't hear any faint shots after the impacts.


Watched this ep for a 2nd time last night. I could clearly hear the firing of a rifle coming out of my rear speakers before the bullets impacted through my front speakers. It was definitely a rifle, sounded exactly like the one used in the movie Sniper with Tom Berenger.


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## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Yeah. It was in all the magazines.


So that is what the whispers in the forest are about. So they are put to rest now?


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

super dave said:


> Watched this ep for a 2nd time last night. I could clearly hear the firing of a rifle coming out of my rear speakers before the bullets impacted through my front speakers. It was definitely a rifle, sounded exactly like the one used in the movie Sniper with Tom Berenger.


A blooper? Shouldn't we hear the sound of a gun _after_ the bullets impact?


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

i don't think I've seen anyone mention the possibility that the "sniper rifle" could have been the smoke monster. There was definitely some creepy sound design in the woods prior and during the shootings, and it's been a long time since the monster has appeared. I know ep8 wasn't the designed finale for the first half, but kind of hard to believe they would completely leave out such a huge part of the Lost mythos on what should be considered a semi-important episode in the entire rundown.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

scheckeNYK said:


> i don't think I've seen anyone mention the possibility that the "sniper rifle" could have been the smoke monster. There was definitely some creepy sound design in the woods prior and during the shootings, and it's been a long time since the monster has appeared. I know ep8 wasn't the designed finale for the first half, but kind of hard to believe they would completely leave out such a huge part of the Lost mythos on what should be considered a semi-important episode in the entire rundown.


I think the monster appeared recently to Julia as Harper.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> Wait, doesn't citrus explode if you time travel with it?


:up: I can't think of a better reply!


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Ben was definitely in his secret room at the barracks. But it just occurred to me that because of when they left the barracks (day 82) it had to be the earlier gap when Tom was in NY. Between days 74 and 80. It's a tight turn-around for Michael getting into the accident and out of the hospital, etc., but with the latter one, it gives him a lot more time to get to Fiji considering that Naomi parachutes onto the island on day 87.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> I'd thought that Naomi's helicopter crashed - that they maybe had two choppers.. There's only one there on the boat. Frank argued with her saying he'd been piloting forever and that HE should be able to go first and she argued no.. (so it's not like he piloted and she jumped..).. So what's up with that?


My take on that was that Frank wanted to be on the island first, and that Frank did a flyover on the island with Naomi and she jumped out when he *thought* he was going to crash, however he saved the chopper, (much like the later mission) and headed back to the freighter and the mission continued.

I'm the first to admit I'm reading items into this that were not presented to us, but those are the gaps my logic filled in.

Diane


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Here's something that hasn't been mentioned. Michael hasn't told anyone about the island, not even his mother. But he is an adult. I find it a little hard to believe that Walt could keep that a secret for long, especially from his grandmother.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

More random thoughts..

They made it pretty clear that the guys shooting off the team were the "mercinary team".. They have machine guns, and when he hit a clay tablet with it, he happily yelled "KILL SHOT!".

The bomb scene was had a bunch of stuff in it.. He had to enter a specific code (7-1-7-7-6), so presumably that was the "count down then pop up the flag" code.. I imagine Ben will give him a different code later, which actually detonates the bomb. (One could say the bomb was a complete fake, and no code detonates it, but Michael's first answer to Sayid's "Why are you here?" question is "I'm here to die", so I think at least he thinks it can explode).

So, before he hits the Execute button, I was sure I heard (and I've confirmed, even via captions) Mama Cass playing in the background ("..but it's getting better...", which is what was playing exactly when he turned the corner for that last drive toward the end of the dock..). Then Libby appeared and said "Don't do it Michael".

So, several questions: Why would the vision of Libby say not to do it, when it's just a flag? Did whatever controls the apparitions/visions/ghosts (the island?) not _know_ that the bomb wasn't going to go off? Or was the vision there to say not to do it, because even the act of pushing Execute (when thinking it WOULD do something) was some unforgivable unredeeming act?.

Also, Ben's explanation that he had to show Michael the difference between himself and Widmore (that he wouldn't kill innocent people online) doesn't completely jive with his one-sentence-earlier surprise at hearing that Michael had entered the code on the keypad.

Michael: "You put me on this boat.. Talked me into blowing it up. And when I pushed the damn button, a flag pops up."

Ben (with a very surprised/shocked look on his face): "You actually activated the bomb?"

What's up with that?

When Ben's talking to Michael and says "..and what wouldn't a man do for his son?", maybe that's a small foreshadowing to what a man would do for his daughter.. Karl's a loose deadly sperm cannon that could kill her, so he takes him out.

So the list of names Ben gets.. at first I just thought "ah, another list.. and someone will figure out who the good and bad people are", separate them somehow, then blow up the boat or something. But then I realized that that's also how he got the details for Charlotte, Frank, Danny, and Miles.

I agree with the idea previously stated that Sayid's outting of Valeria Pla.. err.. of Michael Dawson, was probably the event that Ben referred to in Sayid's flashback.. bad things will happen (from Sayid's perspective) as a result of outing him.

When the Captain heard this, he had a guarded expression on his face (no obvious emotion, except some possibly-faked/possibly-real concern).. And earlier in the episode, when Michael said "Not now man" and Sayid said "yes, right now", the Captain was walking up to the top of the boat and looked down at the two of them, as if he knew something was up.

Loved the Star Wars reference from Karl (he had a bad feeling about this).

There's blood (or at least a red paintball) on Karl's shirt (on the right side of his chest), and he's unconscious. Ah, yep, then in the next scene there's a red bullet exit wound on his back.. he's gone. (The captions said "bullets whizzing", so at least the captions people thought they were bullets, not darts.. There was smoke coming from where trees were hit too, so it looks like bullets to me).

I dunno if this is the first time we heard Alex's full name Alexandra.. (I still cling in the back of my mind to an idea I had back in season one that if we took all of the names mentioned on the show, the # of characters would be the square of some number, and if we fill a that#xthat# grid with the names, it'll make a word circle with some final easter eggs or something, since they focused on a word circle in some early episode (the pilot?), and people's names have often been a big issue (having part of a name delayed until later, having aliases, etc).

Last point - another great acting part, but more a great acting voice: Alex screaming "Wait Wait Don't! I'm Ben's daughter! I'm his daughter!!"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jkeegan said:


> Last point - another great acting part, but more a great acting voice: Alex screaming "Wait Wait Don't! I'm Ben's daughter! I'm his daughter!!"


...which implied to me that she figured out what happened--that Ben had set Karl and Danielle up. And there will be hell to pay down the road.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...which implied to me that she figured out what happened--that Ben had set Karl and Danielle up. And there will be hell to pay down the road.


It implied to me that she knew that her relationship to Ben is of benefit to her in that they would not kill someone who could be used as leverage against Ben.

Edit to clarify: She believes that the people from the boat are the ones shooting. I'm not 100% convinced (only 70% convinced).


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Wow, 7 pages and nobody's mentioned the easter egg to beat all easter eggs.

Did anyone notice Naomi's butt-crack as she went through the door right after talking to Frank on the freighter?

Greg


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> They made it pretty clear that the guys shooting off the team were the "mercinary team".. They have machine guns, and when he hit a clay tablet with it, he happily yelled "KILL SHOT!".


The guys shooting off "the team"? You mean Karl and Danielle? They weren't shot with machine guns...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

PKurmas said:


> I'd choose to look at it as the Island "won't let him" due to some subtle brain reprogramming, here resulting in a subconscious refusal to allow a suicide to succeed. Now, if Michael were to jump from a building I'm sure the Island wouldn't cause the ground to become spongy & save him. But the effect would prevent him from jumping. That would still count as "won't let him" to me.
> 
> Kinda like with Jack.


Well, he did crash his car and managed to come out of it with very little harm. Not much different from your example above.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Mike Farrington said:


> Edit to clarify: She believes that the people from the boat are the ones shooting. I'm not 100% convinced (only 70% convinced).


I didn't get that at all. (Doesn't mean it's not true, just that I didn't get that at all.)

I thought (and still think, until somebody shows contrary evidence) that during the assault, she figured out that if they wanted her dead she'd be dead, ergo it's Ben's people, ergo she wanted to make DAMN sure they knew who she was so they wouldn't accidentally shoot her.

Either way makes for a logical interpretation; the reason I like mine is that it ties more stuff together, which seems to be how these people (Lost writers) operate.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I thought (and still think, until somebody shows contrary evidence) that during the assault, she figured out that if they wanted her dead she'd be dead, ergo it's Ben's people, ergo she wanted to make DAMN sure they knew who she was so they wouldn't accidentally shoot her.


I think that if she believed it was Ben's people doing the shooting, she'd be screaming "It's Alex! Don't shoot me!".

The very fact that she referred to herself by her relationship to Ben "I'm Ben's daughter" seems to indicate that she believed that the people shooting didn't know who she was---and therefore most likely were from the boat.

That's about who she *thought* was doing the shooting. As for who actually was doing the shooting, well, I don't know.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Amnesia said:


> The guys shooting off "the team"? You mean Karl and Danielle? They weren't shot with machine guns...


I think I typed "off the deck" and the iPhone mangled it without me noticing. I wasn't talking about Danielle's group at all.. I was saying that a good portion of the boat people seem to be mercinaries, lending credibility to Ben's claims that they'll eventually kill everyone on the island.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I'm thinking that the code Michael punched in for the "bomb" was actually transmitting a signal to Ben's folks at the Temple that the freighter people were close to the island, and that they need to prepare to start shooting things that move -- which accounts for them picking off Danielle and Karl.

Then again, Lapidus did take the helicopter on a mission, so he may have brought a sniper to a mountain to pick people off.

And as for how Mr. Friendly got to NYC from the island, I'm picturing a rubber ducky inner tube and a paddle.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Yeah, I think she was shouting because she believed it was the people wanting to get Ben that were shooting.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

getreal said:


> I'm thinking that the code Michael punched in for the "bomb" was actually transmitting a signal to Ben's folks at the Temple that the freighter people were close to the island, and that they need to prepare to start shooting things that move -- which accounts for them picking off Danielle and Karl.


Those two events happened days (weeks?) apart.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So we're being told that Widmore wants whatever is of value on the island and will kill everyone there to make sure that they don't get in the way or give away the location of the island back in the real world. Also so he doesn't get caught for the fake wreckage which if Tom's evidence is real, could catch up with him. 

So he lets 6 of them go and either kills the rest or lets them stay on the island on the condition that they never leave and don't bother him. Or the Others go in hiding and mount a resistance movement and he can't find them. But why let the 6 go? Why trust them? What's in it for him--so much easier and safer just to kill them.

Meanwhile Ben is in the real world with Sayid trying to get rid of everyone who knows about the island, figuring he can get rid of those on the island later with smokey's help. But again, he lets the 6 leave and trusts them not to tell. Again why? Neither of these guys is soft hearted as much as Ben might claim to be. They could accidentally let something slip or be tortured. They could (most likely prospect) go crazy. 

When Michael comes on board, Minkowski asks if he's the engineer. So the engineer is new too--another spy? Have we met him? 

So glad it's just a 5 week break.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

wprager said:


> Wait, doesn't citrus explode if you time travel with it?


:up: Thanks. Makes me miss that show.



gchance said:


> Wow, 7 pages and nobody's mentioned the easter egg to beat all easter eggs.
> 
> Did anyone notice Naomi's butt-crack as she went through the door right after talking to Frank on the freighter?
> 
> Greg


No, I didn't, but I guess I'll be rewatching the episode now!


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> A blooper? Shouldn't we hear the sound of a gun _after_ the bullets impact?


Guess it depends how far back your rear speakers are set...


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Alpinemaps said:


> :up: Thanks. Makes me miss that show.


Which show are you guys talking about? I thought wprager was just being funny.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Journeyman.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Alpinemaps said:


> gchance said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, 7 pages and nobody's mentioned the easter egg to beat all easter eggs.
> ...


Here, I'll make it easy for ya. 









Greg


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

jdfs said:


> Or a sniper at long range. Bullets through the air don't make a lot of noise, just the initial detonation. Don't know why they would be using silencers.





Mike Farrington said:


> In all that time, I think the sound of the firing would have eventually reached the targets. I didn't hear any faint shots after the impacts.





super dave said:


> Watched this ep for a 2nd time last night. I could clearly hear the firing of a rifle coming out of my rear speakers before the bullets impacted through my front speakers. It was definitely a rifle, sounded exactly like the one used in the movie Sniper with Tom Berenger.





Fool Me Twice said:


> A blooper? Shouldn't we hear the sound of a gun _after_ the bullets impact?





super dave said:


> Guess it depends how far back your rear speakers are set...


You guys realize that sound effects are added by people who are most likely guessing at what things _should_ sound like, right?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> When he chucked the phone, and it floated, I half expected him to panic about it being visible/floating.


I thought the way he threw it was very non-discreet and drew attention to it. If I were him, I would have simply walked close to the edge and dropped it. As it was, he made a big throwing movement with his arm, and anyone could have seen what he threw and where it landed.


Church AV Guy said:


> I can't believe how often this comes up! They were NOT subliminal messages. DirecTV, Dish, and cable companies, are allowed to replace some of the network commercials with their own. What happens is, in order to make sure that they don't put advertising over the program material, they make their commercials about 1 second shorter than the actual break. What you see is the end of the "overlayed" commercial, than about 1 second or less of the original commercial, then the program restarts. I asked TNT about this once when my local cable company started putting stupid ads on their channel, and they said it was part of the agreement and perfectly legal.


Except that in this case, both times it was shown it came directly after an ABC network promo, not a local ad. And as Balboa Dave said, it was a first-run network show, so no local overlays.


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## Zen98031 (Sep 29, 2005)

steve614 said:


> You guys realize that sound effects are added by people who are most likely guessing at what things _should_ sound like, right?


Thank you, was reading through all 7 pages and finally somebody says this. 

Also silencing a rifle does not do a lot of good as you can't silence the sonic boom the bullet creates as it leaves the barrel. You can silence a pistol cause they are subsonic, though I suppose it is possible that there are some pistols with muzzle velocities above the speed of sound. I didn't feel like doing a search right now.

I need to watch that scene again, but it seems to me the shots were coming from more than one angle. Could just be a production mistake, or it's an indication that the party was ambushed by a well organized team that knew where they would be.

Mitch


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

steve614 said:


> You guys realize that sound effects are added by people who are most likely guessing at what things _should_ sound like, right?





Zen98031 said:


> Thank you, was reading through all 7 pages and finally somebody says this.


Of course, they could be added by an editor who's following specific directions in the script, and who is also working side-by-side with the director, who's likely watching him in the editing suite.

Greg


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## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

Cindy1230 said:


> But the "consider yourself one of the good guys," line was a bit hoakey. I know it was a throw back to Ben saying 'we're the good guys' to Michael before, just sounded lame this time.


I think it was supposed to sound hokey. This season we're seeing more of the man behind the curtain (especially the last couple of episodes). Despite his delusions of grandeur, Ben is turning out to be a small petty man. Of course, seeing his childhood, you can understand how he turned out that way.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rosincrans said:


> I think it was supposed to sound hokey. This season we're seeing more of the man behind the curtain (especially the last couple of episodes). Despite his delusions of grandeur, Ben is turning out to be a small petty man. Of course, seeing his childhood, you can understand how he turned out that way.


Yeah. "Good guys" and "bad guys" has been a recurring theme.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> I think that if she believed it was Ben's people doing the shooting, she'd be screaming "It's Alex! Don't shoot me!".
> 
> The very fact that she referred to herself by her relationship to Ben "I'm Ben's daughter" seems to indicate that she believed that the people shooting didn't know who she was---and therefore most likely were from the boat.
> 
> That's about who she *thought* was doing the shooting. As for who actually was doing the shooting, well, I don't know.


Hey, we agree!

What I wonder is, does Ben know, or think he knows, which group it is? I guess he'd only really _know_ if he somehow got word to the Others and gave them orders. Or did he just expect the freighter people to shoot at them? Or did he figure that one of them would do it and it didn't really matter to him?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> What I wonder is, does Ben know, or think he knows, which group it is? _(...)_ Or did he figure that one of them would do it and it didn't really matter to him?


That would imply that he wouldn't care whether or not Alex got killed. I think he still cares about her.

I think that if Ben sent them down that path in order to get Karl and Danielle shot, it must be the Others shooting at them.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Fool Me Twice said:


> A blooper? Shouldn't we hear the sound of a gun _after_ the bullets impact?


If they were shooting from off-Island we may not hear the bullets until a few minutes later ... or earlier?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Amnesia said:


> That would imply that he wouldn't care whether or not Alex got killed. I think he still cares about her.
> 
> I think that if Ben sent them down that path in order to get Karl and Danielle shot, it must be the Others shooting at them.


Yeah, if he didn't care he wouldn't have been pissed at Karl. So it was either the Others like you said, or he was taking his chances with the freighties but hoped he was right that they wouldn't hurt "his daughter."


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Another reason it had to be the earlier time period is that Anthony Cooper knew about the (fake) 815 wreckage. He was on the island by day 82. That just means things happened quickly with Michael when he got back.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

This 'Kevin Johnson' guy looks familiar. I think that he might have been on the show a couple seasons back.


----------



## HoldenBanky (Oct 25, 2006)

jamesbobo said:


> Here's something that hasn't been mentioned. Michael hasn't told anyone about the island, not even his mother. But he is an adult. I find it a little hard to believe that Walt could keep that a secret for long, especially from his grandmother.


Well, I believe Walt hadn't met his grandmother until getting off that island. I don't believe he would open up to her, blood relative or not, after the ordeal he just went through.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

balboa dave said:


> First, this was a prime-time first run network broadcast. No one messes with that. Second, this was not the only ABC show with these commercials. And third, according to this, these were "flash teases" for the relaunch of _The Mole_, and were very intentional.


Thank you! I didn't mean to derail the thread, but it's THE MOLE! Of course it was intentional!

And, yes, of course I paused it to look for clues


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Maybe the person doing the shooting at the end was Ben. After all, if you want anything done right, do it yourself. He knows the path they were taking, he told them. So all he had to do was get ahead of them. 

Not likely, but who knows with this show.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> I'd thought that Naomi's helicopter crashed - that they maybe had two choppers.. There's only one there on the boat. Frank argued with her saying he'd been piloting forever and that HE should be able to go first and she argued no.. (so it's not like he piloted and she jumped..).. So what's up with that?





dianebrat said:


> My take on that was that Frank wanted to be on the island first, and that Frank did a flyover on the island with Naomi and she jumped out when he *thought* he was going to crash, however he saved the chopper, (much like the later mission) and headed back to the freighter and the mission continued.


My sister is in the middle of watching season 3, so I did some reading to refresh myself and be able to bring her to the dark side of the forum. 
I know my source should be from watching the actual episode but i can't watch video at work, so i read the episode summary on lostpedia. 
In Catch-22 - Desmond, Charlie, Hurley and Jin see the copter crash in the ocean.. 
so i second jeffkeegan's question... in this episode we only see 1 copter on the frieghter.. what *IS *up with that?

And... 
On the freighter, naomi says to frank.. something like.. that i need to get the science team there first... i know you guys were distracted by the butt crack to listen  
So then why did she go to the island by herself after arguing to frank about it?

EDIT - I was wrong about above- just read the transcript:
NAOMI: Sorry, Frank, but I'm going first and that's all there is to it. 
FRANK: No offense, but I was flying these things when you were still in grade school. If anybody's gotta go first, it should be me. 
NAOMI: Yeah, I need you here to transport the science team, Frank. 
FRANK: What the hell are you gonna be doing? 
NAOMI: That's need-to-know. You don't.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> If they were shooting from off-Island we may not hear the bullets until a few minutes later ... or earlier?


Shooting from off island? Even the best snipers can't shoot accurately from more than 1000 yards. You really think someone is ambushing them from off island?


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

Michael went into flashback when Sayid asked to him to explain everything. So can we assume that everything we say in Michael's flashback was related to Sayid and Desmond?


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

As someone mentioned earlier -- I would think that if Michael were going to tell the story, then he would have started at the *beginning* -- i.e., What happened right after he drove away in the boat? How did he "find rescue"? What did he tell people when he returned home? Why the @##%@$ would he come back?? Alas, we will have to wait for another "Kevin Johnson" episode to learn those details.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> As someone mentioned earlier -- I would think that if Michael were going to tell the story, then he would have started at the *beginning* -- i.e., What happened right after he drove away in the boat? How did he "find rescue"? What did he tell people when he returned home? Why the @##%@$ would he come back?? Alas, we will have to wait for another "Kevin Johnson" episode to learn those details.


Is the show even 45 minutes,without commercials? From his conversation with the grandmother we know he didn't tell anyone he was a 815 survivor and didn't provide any details as to where he was. The details of how he got to NYC was probably deemed not worthy of airtime.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Mike Farrington said:


> Michael went into flashback when Sayid asked to him to explain everything. So can we assume that everything we say in Michael's flashback was related to Sayid and Desmond?


I think we can assume that everything we saw in Michael's flashback was related to Sayid and Desmond, but not that everything Michael related to Sayid and Desmond was shown in the flashback. The question of how he and Walt "found rescue" is way too important to have simply been overlooked. I'm sure it will be answered at some point.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

I can understand why Sayid turned Michael in to Captain Gault and revealed his secret identity and mission.

Besides tha fact that he killed a couple of them and betrayed the rest when he dealt with the devil (Ben) to get the boat for just himself and Waaaaaalt, Sayid is furious that Michael abandoned his fellow castaways by not doing a thing to help them when he had so many opportunities while in NYC.

Desmond didn't seem to know who Michael was, as he was running through the woods and launching his yacht after Kate, Locke & Jack sprung the hatch door open, so he never really met Michael before.

"Don't trust the Captain" might have been scrawled by Regina or Michael.

Michael is a really unlikeable character with lots of personal issues. His girlfriend hated him, his boy hates him, his momma hates him, his fellow survivors don't like him. Does _anybody_ like Michael?


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

scottykempf said:


> Where did she go? Carl was hit several times, Rousseau was only hit once. Locke was shot by Ben and made a full recovery.


I sure hope someone conned Rousseau into giving up her kidney!



latrobe7 said:


> I don't know how I feel about "The Island" not letting Michael die. So the Island is a conscious entity now? And all powerful, too? How that mechanism works out will be interesting to see, that could be a big weakness in the overall story - for me, anyway.


I really don't like this development. I realize how hazy it can be to say one thing is beyond my suspension of disbelief when we have healing magnetic fields and incredible coincidences and consciousnesses unstuck in time and all this other stuff, but somehow, I can buy all of that but I can't buy this particular thing. (And didn't much like it when Desmond got it either, though it bothered me more this time.) It doesn't matter if it really is "the island" doing it or some other force -- it's not who does it or why, it's that anything _can_.

I hope it turns out that there's another explanation.



JYoung said:


> Or Tom rigged the gun.


Yeah, I hope he played a "Laertes" there and swapped guns or something, but even so, hugely risky. Counting on Michael to not try some other method. Even so, I could buy this better.



jeff125va said:


> I don't think there was ever any ambiguity about what he meant when he told Kate she wasn't his type. (Have you _seen_ Kate? )


I agree there wasn't any ambiguity. But I take exception to your reasoning. Kate shouldn't be most sane people's type. Personally, I like my women to have scruples, a bare minimum of honesty, a hint of emotional stability and maturity, and several fewer murders in their pasts. Call me picky! (Oh, and there's also the matter of her looks, which aren't quite my cup of tea either.)



Cindy1230 said:


> Was that a digitalized Walt? It does look like him, but i guess they didn't want to credit the actor or have to pay him.


More likely they're dealing with the fact that, at his age, the several years the actor has aged is way too visible to cover up, given that it's only been a few months for the characters.



tiams said:


> My question is this...When Michael made it back to the real world, why didnt he let someone know where to look for the survivors?


I'm hoping we get a good answer, but until that happens, the bad answer is that he doesn't know. But he could still have said "they're out there" and told them what he did know, and I hope we find out why he didn't, and it ties in to why he was using an alias.



jkeegan said:


> The bomb scene was had a bunch of stuff in it.. He had to enter a specific code (7-1-7-7-6), so presumably that was the "count down then pop up the flag" code.. I imagine Ben will give him a different code later, which actually detonates the bomb. (One could say the bomb was a complete fake, and no code detonates it, but Michael's first answer to Sayid's "Why are you here?" question is "I'm here to die", so I think at least he thinks it can explode).


I agree it can blow up just because it was a more elaborate fake than necessary if it was not going to blow up ever. But "I'm here to die" isn't about that. It's because he tried to commit suicide and can't until he completes the work he has to do -- at least, he believes that, whether it's true or not -- so he's here to finish the work so he can die. Guess what, Michael's got himself onto a redemption arc, finally! Now he just needs father issues.



jkeegan said:


> Ben (with a very surprised/shocked look on his face): "You actually activated the bomb?"
> 
> What's up with that?


Ben's just playing him. Trying to guilt him. He knew perfectly well Michael would activate the bomb, and that he would say that for the impact it would have in making Michael do what he needed him to do later.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

getreal said:


> ......Does _anybody_ like Michael?


Nope. Noone likes Michael. Certainly makes him fall into the category of _"Neither friend nor family"._


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Hunter Green said:


> Guess what, Michael's got himself onto a redemption arc, finally! Now he just needs father issues.


He's got plenty of father issues. It's just that _he's_ the father.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> I agree there wasn't any ambiguity. But I take exception to your reasoning. Kate shouldn't be most sane people's type. Personally, I like my women to have scruples, a bare minimum of honesty, a hint of emotional stability and maturity, and several fewer murders in their pasts. Call me picky! (Oh, and there's also the matter of her looks, which aren't quite my cup of tea either.)


I'll call you picky because of the looks thing. 

Seriously, aside from the fact that I was being slightly facetious, within the context of that scene, none of that would really matter. You're talking about an actual relationship, he was simply talking about looking at her naked. I think she's more than attractive enough to make the point they were making without leaving any doubt. And if it were a matter of finding her too unattractive to look at naked, Tom's usually a nice enough guy that he would have been polite enough not to say so.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> More likely they're dealing with the fact that, at his age, the several years the actor has aged is way too visible to cover up, given that it's only been a few months for the characters.


I've heard (albeit not from the most reputable source) that the kid has now topped six feet, which would eliminate pretty much any chance of a return for the actor if not the character...


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've heard (albeit not from the most reputable source) that the kid has now topped six feet, which would eliminate pretty much any chance of a return for the actor if not the character...


Wow. Yeah, that would be difficult, unless it's in some sort of dream or other apparition. Perhaps we'll learn more about why Walt's "powers" and why he had grown significantly when Locke saw him.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've heard (albeit not from the most reputable source) that the kid has now topped six feet, which would eliminate pretty much any chance of a return for the actor if not the character...


They need to hire whoever worked on the forced perspective scenes in LOTR.

I have to wonder why they wouldn't take this into account in casting. Or even in script-writing. If you know anything about 11-year-old boys, you know that they will likely have a tremendous growth spurt sometime in the next 2-5 years (and their voices will change ...). So, make the character 8 years old and buy yourself some time. Or cast a kid who's somewhat younger than the character. Or cast a kid who has a younger brother that looks a lot like him.

OTOH, maybe the creators were super-clever, and it will all make sense at the end of Season 6.

As it is, I'm not sure what they did in this episode to show Walt at the window, but it looked about as good as possible. To me Walt just looked a little heavier than when he left the island. Maybe in a future episode we'll learn that he hit the junk food pretty hard when he got home.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> I have to wonder why they wouldn't take this into account in casting. Or even in script-writing. If you know anything about 11-year-old boys, you know that they will likely have a tremendous growth spurt sometime in the next 2-5 years (and their voices will change ...). So, make the character 8 years old and buy yourself some time. Or cast a kid who's somewhat younger than the character. Or cast a kid who has a younger brother that looks a lot like him.
> 
> OTOH, maybe the creators were super-clever, and it will all make sense at the end of Season 6.


I'm guessing this is one case where they flat-out screwed up, given how important he has been to the overall storyline and how rapidly he was dumped from the show with so much involving him unresolved.


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## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

JYoung said:


> So how do Ben, Tom, and Batmanuel get to run a corporation on the outside world that has enough of a rep to interest Juliette without money?


Keep forgetting to post that this was my favorite line of the thread. :up:

Spoon!


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

Ben made a big deal out of "I don't kill innocent people" when talking with Michael, then he sends Rousseau and Carl out to be shot. Ummmm.....they weren't good people? Oh, I forgot, he wasn't holding the gun, so he didn't "do" anything...


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

jlb said:


> Nope. Noone likes Michael. Certainly makes him fall into the category of _"Neither friend nor family"._


:up: Now why didn't I think of that? Good call!


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So why did Jack go?


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Here's what bothered me in this ep. Widmore's not generally a trusting guy. He and Ben obviously have mutual animosity of lethal proportions. Ben clearly is willing to do whatever it takes to keep Widmore from finding the island, and Widmore knows it.

So whoever's in charge of the freighter personnel hires Kevin Johnson. Fine. 80&#37; of the people on that boat are lying about something, so it's quite plausible that they don't do a thorough background check or panic if they learn that's not his real name.

But wouldn't you expect them to at least search the big box with his name on it? And yeah, the bomb was hidden under some tools, but does a deck hand bring his own tool kit? Opening the case and finding a bunch of tools would make me even more suspicious.

So, here are the possible explanations that I can think of:
1. plot hole slightly bigger than a bread-box.
2. Widmore's people are idiots.
3. Widmore and Ben are actually in cahoots in some way.
4. There are more double-agents on that boat, and whoever was in charge of freighter security is working for Ben.

I'm going with 4. But 3 could be an intriguing twist.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> Ben made a big deal out of "I don't kill innocent people" when talking with Michael, then he sends Rousseau and Carl out to be shot. Ummmm.....they weren't good people? Oh, I forgot, he wasn't holding the gun, so he didn't "do" anything...


There's no evidence that Ben's people (The Others) shot Karl and Rousseau. This is just speculation. It could very well be the freighter people starting Purge 2.0.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm guessing this is one case where they flat-out screwed up, given how important he has been to the overall storyline and how rapidly he was dumped from the show with so much involving him unresolved.


Well, Michael was gone for a while too, so it could have been planned. Or, they kept Michael away for a while just to make it seem less obvious that Walt was gone too.


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## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

mqpickles said:


> [...]4. There are more double-agents on that boat, and whoever was in charge of freighter security is working for Ben.


I half-expected Captain Gault to go "I Know" after Sayid's spiel about Michael/Kevin. That possibility is still open since they showed absolutely no reaction on Gault's part.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Mike Farrington said:


> I half-expected Captain Gault to go "I Know" after Sayid's spiel about Michael/Kevin. That possibility is still open since they showed absolutely no reaction on Gault's part.


I felt exactly the same way! I may watch again, just to see if he really says it this time. 

I'm surprised no one mentioned the voices occurring off-island, before Libby showed up to Michael on the freighter. It could have been an overactive imagination on his part, but having having visions is one thing.

And he only saw Libby because Ana Lucia was not a good person. And speaking of which, isn't Michelle Rodriguez in jail or something?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Well, Michael was gone for a while too, so it could have been planned. Or, they kept Michael away for a while just to make it seem less obvious that Walt was gone too.


Word at the time was that Perrineau thought the show was beneath him and wanted out. Without Walt, there was not much point in Michael, so he got his wish.

Which would make his return a sign that reality has since sunk in.


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## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

From wikipedia:

On December 23, 2007, she (Michelle Rodriguez) turned herself in to begin the jail term in the Century Regional Detention Facility located in Lynwood, CA.[28] On the evening of January 9, 2008, Rodriguez was released after serving 18 days of her 180 day sentence, due to overcrowding.[29]


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> From wikipedia:
> 
> On December 23, 2007, she (Michelle Rodriguez) turned herself in to begin the jail term in the Century Regional Detention Facility located in Lynwood, CA.[28] On the evening of January 9, 2008, Rodriguez was released after serving 18 days of her 180 day sentence, due to overcrowding.[29]


What was the point of posting that?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Delta13 said:


> And speaking of which, isn't Michelle Rodriguez in jail or something?





CarynFromHermosa said:


> From wikipedia:
> 
> On December 23, 2007, she (Michelle Rodriguez) turned herself in to begin the jail term in the Century Regional Detention Facility located in Lynwood, CA.[28] On the evening of January 9, 2008, Rodriguez was released after serving 18 days of her 180 day sentence, due to overcrowding.[29]





DevdogAZ said:


> What was the point of posting that?


.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> From wikipedia:
> 
> On December 23, 2007, she (Michelle Rodriguez) turned herself in to begin the jail term in the Century Regional Detention Facility located in Lynwood, CA.[28] On the evening of January 9, 2008, Rodriguez was released after serving 18 days of her 180 day sentence, due to overcrowding.[29]


Good for her, no whiny "I'm a star I should only have to do community service"
She did her time, and FWIW the 18 day span is common in the area if it's a non-violent crime.

Diane


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Word at the time was that Perrineau thought the show was beneath him and wanted out. Without Walt, there was not much point in Michael, so he got his wish.
> 
> Which would make his return a sign that reality has since sunk in.


Ahh. Caruso Syndrome.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> Here's what bothered me in this ep. Widmore's not generally a trusting guy. He and Ben obviously have mutual animosity of lethal proportions. Ben clearly is willing to do whatever it takes to keep Widmore from finding the island, and Widmore knows it.
> 
> So whoever's in charge of the freighter personnel hires Kevin Johnson. Fine. 80% of the people on that boat are lying about something, so it's quite plausible that they don't do a thorough background check or panic if they learn that's not his real name.
> 
> ...


I'm going with #1, although I don't think it's a big hole.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

getreal said:


> Does _anybody_ like Michael?


Hey now! _I_ like hi... oh wait. Nope, don't like him.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

mqpickles said:


> Ahh. Caruso Syndrome.


Just watched _Twins_ with my kids the other weekend. He should have known better.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Turtleboy said:


> .


You got me. I didn't see the last part of Delta13's post. My bad.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

If I had put that smiley at the end of the sentence like I meant to, it would've tipped you off I'm sure.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dianebrat said:


> Good for her, no whiny "I'm a star I should only have to do community service"
> She did her time, and FWIW the 18 day span is common in the area if it's a non-violent crime.


Actually, she got jail time because she refused to cooperate in some way--I think she objected to being on parole or something.

[edit] Oops, no, it was a parole violation that landed her in prison. I was thinking of an earlier case where she decided she would rather do five days in jail than 240 hours of community service. And the violation that imprisoned her was failure to complete community service!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rodriguez#Legal_troubles


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> So, here are the possible explanations that I can think of:
> 1. plot hole slightly bigger than a bread-box.
> 2. Widmore's people are idiots.
> 3. Widmore and Ben are actually in cahoots in some way.
> ...


5. Tom did a good job creating a background for Kevin Johnson, maybe Kevin Johnson was a person who existed.
6. That's a standard box that everyone on the boat has for personal effects.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> There's no evidence that Ben's people (The Others) shot Karl and Rousseau. This is just speculation. It could very well be the freighter people starting Purge 2.0.


There's so many possibilities for who could have pulled the trigger, and Ben could be complicit in every one of them -- it's just as bad to send someone to where they'll get shot no matter who's the one who's going to shoot them.



jeff125va said:


> I'll call you picky because of the looks thing.


Fair enough! But it still makes the point: there are plenty of red-blooded men for whom Kate is not their type even if you limit the question to looks only.


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## 420s (Feb 22, 2007)

Before this episode, I believed that Alex wasn't Ben's daughter and that he just took this "French Chick's" daughter. After seeing this episode, I have changed my mind. I think Alex is actually his biological daughter. Hear me out on this.  Ben refered to her as "his daughter" while the french chick was there and she didn't even really flinch. I think that Ben, knowing that pregnant women die on the island, whated a child and had to impregnate someone off the island. He picked Rous. When she was almost due, "the island" brought her there, just like it brought the spinal surgeon there for Ben. Just my two cents.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Hunter Green said:


> Fair enough! But it still makes the point: there are plenty of red-blooded men for whom Kate is not their type even if you limit the question to looks only.


True enough. The woman has no hips. I'll take Sun or Claire or Nikki or Shannon...


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

420s said:


> Before this episode, I believed that Alex wasn't Ben's daughter and that he just took this "French Chick's" daughter. After seeing this episode, I have changed my mind. I think *Ben is actually his biological daughter.* Hear me out on this.  Ben refered to her as "his daughter" while the french chick was there and she didn't even really flinch. I think that Ben, knowing that pregnant women die on the island, whated a child and had to impregnate someone off the island. He picked Rous. When she was almost due, "the island" brought her there, just like it brought the spinal surgeon there for Ben. Just my two cents.


Okay, for one, Ben cannot possibly be his own biological daughter.  Yeah, caught your typo. We know you meant Alex instead of Ben.

But it has already been established that Ben is NOT Alex' biological father.

Alex was raised by Ben since she was an infant, so he is the only "parent" she has known. Rousseau probably didn't flinch because she understands that Ben will tend to refer to Alex as "my daughter" because he has had 16 years of experiance as "her father".

And there has never been any indication that Ben and Rousseau had ever met prior to the island. He grew up on the island since he was about 10 and his father brought him to join the Dharma project.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

getreal said:


> But it has already been established that Ben is NOT Alex' biological father.
> 
> And there has never been any indication that Ben and Rousseau had ever met prior to the island. He grew up on the island since he was about 10 and his father brought him to join the Dharma project.


Now wait; I'm inclined to agree with you, but has that been _proven_? I mean, isn't it possible that Danielle's back-story is bogus and she has been on the Island longer than she let on; couldn't she be Annie? I know, that's wacky; but has it been definitively disproved...?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Hunter Green said:


> Fair enough! But it still makes the point: there are plenty of red-blooded men for whom Kate is not their type even if you limit the question to looks only.


If I lived on an island like that, I wouldn't be picky. 

Not that I'm picky anyway.


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## 420s (Feb 22, 2007)

We have pictures showing him off the island, passports, and different currencies. Just because he said he hadn't been off the island doesn't mean that he actually hadn't been off the island. And actually I think he said he was born on the island, which we know is a lie. I'm not sure if he ever said that he had never been off of the island. What been wants, he gets. I don't put it past him to go and get a woman pregnant off the island so he could have a child. 

Concerning the not flinching...If someone took my daughter, it would be an issue everytime they called her their daughter.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> Fair enough! But it still makes the point: there are plenty of red-blooded men for whom Kate is not their type even if you limit the question to looks only.





latrobe7 said:


> True enough. The woman has no hips. I'll take Sun or Claire or Nikki or Shannon...


Just to be clear, I'm sure that individual tastes vary enough that plenty of guys would prefer other women over Kate. I only meant that in the original context, to virtually anyone's tastes, she's more than attractive enough to make the point unequivocally. One would have to think that Tom both thought she was too ugly to even want to take a peek at her naked, and that he'd be so rude as to say that to her.

As far as Kate and the rest of the women, I think they've all been my favorite at one time or another. Juliet even had the lead during "The Other Woman." We need more rainstorm scenes in this show.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

420s said:


> Concerning the not flinching...If someone took my daughter, it would be an issue everytime they called her their daughter.


Rousseau has already slapped and elbowed and punched Ben several times when he referred to Alex as "his", and she corrected him verbally each time as well.

I'd say you're trying to make something out of nothing by suggesting that Ben met and impregnated Danielle 16 or 17 years ago while on an excursion. He is clearly not suave or particularly charming on a "date", as we saw in Juliet's recent flashback episode.

Now, BatManuel, I'm sure could have swept Danielle off her feet years earlier, and he doesn't age and we HAVE seen him off-island when they persuaded Juliet to come with them.


----------



## Sir_Q (Jun 27, 2002)

Mike Farrington said:


> There's no evidence that Ben's people (The Others) shot Karl and Rousseau. This is just speculation. It could very well be the freighter people starting Purge 2.0.


My guess is Ben started coordinating the whole thing once Locke let him roam free.


----------



## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

420s said:


> Before this episode, I believed that Alex wasn't Ben's daughter and that he just took this "French Chick's" daughter. After seeing this episode, I have changed my mind. I think Alex is actually his biological daughter. Hear me out on this.  Ben refered to her as "his daughter" while the french chick was there and she didn't even really flinch. I think that Ben, knowing that pregnant women die on the island, whated a child and had to impregnate someone off the island. He picked Rous. When she was almost due, "the island" brought her there, just like it brought the spinal surgeon there for Ben. Just my two cents.


But wouldn't she have recognized him when she caught him in the net? (his introduction to Lost) She certainly didn't act like she knew who he was.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> Shooting from off island? Even the best snipers can't shoot accurately from more than 1000 yards. You really think someone is ambushing them from off island?


Sorry, the smiley was implied.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Rosincrans said:


> But wouldn't she have recognized him when she caught him in the net? (his introduction to Lost) She certainly didn't act like she knew who he was.


But it still a little strange, that whole scene. She said she had never seen an Other before, but she put an arrow through the first one she did. She also said about Ben, "All he does is lie." Seemed odd then, but maybe it makes more sense now.

Aside from the fact that it's true, of course.  But how did Danielle know?

Oh well. I hope either we find out next episode, or she's not really dead. (or both)


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> As far as Kate and the rest of the women, I think they've all been my favorite at one time or another. Juliet even had the lead during "The Other Woman." We need more rainstorm scenes in this show.


I don't think there's been anyone on Lost that really stood out for me as great eye candy, truthfully. But that's okay: if I wanted eye candy I'd probably be watching something else. That said, if they happened to get someone yummy I wouldn't complain.


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## stiffi (Jun 14, 2006)

getreal said:


> Rousseau has already slapped and elbowed and punched Ben several times when he referred to Alex as "his", and she corrected him verbally each time as well.
> .


I took Rousseau's reaction to be her acquiesing because she knew Ben was trying to protect Alex, which she also would want. She figured, with all the craziness, Ben probably had the best resources to get Alex to a safe place. Of course, he double crossed her, but she was probably prepared for that also.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

OK, I'm posting my off-the-wall suspicions here just in case they turn out to be right. I have no stong evidence for these, but they haven't been disproven either.

-Dannielle is Annie 
-Alex is Ben's biological daughter, not just adopted
-Alex is pregnant
-Ben and dANNIElle are the Adam & Eve skeletons


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> I don't think there's been anyone on Lost that really stood out for me as great eye candy, truthfully. But that's okay: if I wanted eye candy I'd probably be watching something else. That said, if they happened to get someone yummy I wouldn't complain.


Women in Vermont must be AMAZING looking.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Hunter Green said:


> I don't think there's been anyone on Lost that really stood out for me as great eye candy, truthfully. But that's okay: if I wanted eye candy I'd probably be watching something else. That said, if they happened to get someone yummy I wouldn't complain.





jeff125va said:


> Women in Vermont must be AMAZING looking.


Some people prefer the Rosanne Barrs of the world, and some prefer the Evangeline Lilys of the world. Some say po-TAY-to, some say po-TAH-to.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> OK, I'm posting my off-the-wall suspicions here just in case they turn out to be right. I have no stong evidence for these, but they haven't been disproven either.
> 
> -Dannielle is Annie
> -Alex is Ben's biological daughter, not just adopted
> ...


 Very interesting ...


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

getreal said:


> Some people prefer the Rosanne Barrs of the world, and some prefer the Evangeline Lilys of the world. Some say po-TAY-to, some say po-TAH-to.


WOW. Are you saying that someone wants to see Rose in a bikini, coming out of the ocean, in the rain?

Greg


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

gchance said:


> WOW. Are you saying that someone wants to see Rose in a bikini, coming out of the ocean, in the rain?
> 
> Greg


Probably a monokini, but it works for Bernard.

But if you were talking about Roseanne ... urp ... I just threw up in my mouth.


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## 420s (Feb 22, 2007)

Why is his post "interesting" and mine is "No Way"?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wprager said:


> Sorry, the smiley was implied.


Well, it clearly wasn't inferred.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

420s said:


> Why is his post "interesting" and mine is "No Way"?


Hmm... I don't know, maybe it was one of the other bullet points that interested him. But I think you may be right about Alex being Ben's biological daughter - but then again, why would he need to say she was adopted? The other Others know he can leave the Island, so why pretend she is adopted? He could have just told her that her mom died in childbirth (or some other way when she was too small to remember).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I just see no way in which Alex being Ben's biological daughter makes any sense at all.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I just see no way in which Alex being Ben's biological daughter makes any sense at all.


Agreed. It's not like she hasn't talked about him before.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Agreed. It's not like she hasn't talked about him before.


She who? Alex? How would Alex know the truth? And Danielle, well what has she been truthful about?

Seems to me that there's a lot on this show that currently makes no sense. I don't know why this idea is any more absurd than so much that goes on.

I think it's less unbelievable that Alex is Ben's biological daughter than that the Island can control people thousands of mile away.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The whole thing with Danielle seems off somehow. When we met her we didn't know about all the people wandering around the island all the time. Now that we do it makes no sense that someone as tough as Danielle with basically nothing to lose would let them take her baby and do nothing about it. Like when Ben and Juliet go to the medical station alone, or when Ben's Dad is driving around in his van. There would be opportunities to kidnap someone and hold them in exchange for your daughter. What about the whole poison gas thing--where was she then? 

I guess I chalked it up to her being emotionally screwed up from being alone all those years. It didn't make much sense for her to take Ben to the Losties when she found him, either. 

I can't really see her with Ben, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to Danielle's story than we have so far.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Now that we do it makes no sense that someone as tough as Danielle with basically nothing to lose would let them take her baby and do nothing about it.


She wasn't near as strong when she arrived. Shortly after she arrived:

- has her child abducted
- people start freaking out
- things escalate to the point where she feels obligated to kill everyone else

If that happened to anyone they might have been more than a little freaked out. I'd say she completely went over the edge when she killed everyone, unless there's something else there we don't know.

So then, she lives by herself for 12 years, part being pissed off over Danielle, and part being afraid of the Others. Yes she's strong, but the fact that they have her daughter makes her fearful.

In the meantime she's become sort of a female Locke, living off the land and protecting herself with any means possible. My guess is the reason she hasn't gone after her daughter is she's just one person.

That also brings up something else that I don't quite remember. When Ben introduces Danielle to Rousseau, did Rousseau know Danielle was her daughter up until that moment? I mean obviously she had suspicions, but did she know for sure?



stellie93 said:


> I can't really see her with Ben, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to Danielle's story than we have so far.


Up until we saw the Freighter People, isn't she the only person we haven't seen a flashback for?

Greg


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> She who? Alex? How would Alex know the truth? And Danielle, well what has she been truthful about?
> 
> Seems to me that there's a lot on this show that currently makes no sense. I don't know why this idea is any more absurd than so much that goes on.
> 
> I think it's less unbelievable that Alex is Ben's biological daughter than that the Island can control people thousands of mile away.


Sorry about the unclear use of pronouns. Danielle has talked about Alex's father before. His name is Robert.

I think there's very little that doesn't make sense once it's been explained. I think that when things don't make sense, it's usually pretty clear that there's something that we don't know. For example, when we first heard Naomi say that the wreckage had been found, there were all kinds of theories about alternate timelines, etc., but now we have, not the entire story, but more than enough of it to provide a pretty rational explanation.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Sorry about the unclear use of pronouns. Danielle has talked about Alex's father before. His name is Robert.


Well, yeah, but so what? There's no verification of her story; as a matter of fact, most of the things she has said don't make much sense and/or are inconsistent.



> I think there's very little that doesn't make sense once it's been explained.


 My point exactly.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Whoops, I just realized, I got their names confused. Danielle = Rousseau, ALEX = Alex.  What I said still stays though. 



jeff125va said:


> Sorry about the unclear use of pronouns. Danielle has talked about Alex's father before. His name is Robert.


It's been a while, but... you sure it's not Richard? 

Greg


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

gchance said:


> Whoops, I just realized, I got their names confused. Danielle = Rousseau, ALEX = Alex.  What I said still stays though.
> 
> It's been a while, but... you sure it's not Richard?
> 
> Greg


It was Robert. And 16 years, not 12...


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> It was Robert. And 16 years, not 12...


Doesn't matter, Richard can leave and come back willy nilly, AND he stays young. Not to mention he's good looking. What young, beautiful French woman wouldn't want that?

Greg


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

gchance said:


> Doesn't matter, Richard can leave and come back willy nilly, AND he stays young. Not to mention he's good looking. What young, beautiful French woman wouldn't want that?


Oh, I see where you're going; sure, why not Richard Alpert? But I'm sticking with Ben until we see Danielle's back-story and see who "Robert" is.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

gchance said:


> Doesn't matter, Richard can leave and come back willy nilly, AND he stays young. Not to mention he's good looking. What young, beautiful French woman wouldn't want that?
> 
> Greg


Didn't Danielle say she killed Robert?

Of course, if we're going with she's lying, then she could have lied about that too.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I rewatched the end, just for fun. A couple of things made me think:

1. Karl was shot in the back, upper right-hand side. Sure, there's a lung there, but come on, it's *The Island* and, besides, he's got two of them. 

2. When Russeau got shot we didn't see anything. Just the wizz of the bullet and she falls down. 

Why make a special point of showing Karl's wound, and not one for Russeau? Why make sure that the very visible wound is not located near the heart or any other vital organs. 

Wasn't Russeau around when Charlotte got shot? Could she have borrowed the vest? How did Russeau "know" that Karl was "gone" without so much as casting a sideways glance at him? Is there something else there, like Russeau being part of the set up to get rid of Karl? After all, Karl has a loaded weapon pointed at Alex.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

mqpickles said:


> Didn't Danielle say she killed Robert?


At this point I have no clue, I don't remember her referring to Alex's father by name anyway. I threw out Richard to be sillly, but when I typed it, it sounded as plausible as just about anything else posted here. Or things that have happened in the show, for that matter.

It's no different than Christian Shepherd being both Jack's & Claire's dad. Weird coincidences happen on this show.

Greg


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

As far as Alex being pregnant, I think Ben thinks she is. The camera panned to her abdomen as Ben was looking at her and a small bulge was showing. Ben said that the temple could be the last safe place on the Island. I took that to mean it was the one possible place where she could give birth and not die.

But I need my memory refreashed, who is Annie?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> Well, yeah, but so what? There's no verification of her story; as a matter of fact, most of the things she has said don't make much sense and/or are inconsistent.
> 
> My point exactly.


It might not have been verified, but usually after someone lies, and then is caught in the lie, then tells what seems to be the truth, it usually is. (in Lost I mean). It made perfect sense after she explained why she had made up the story about the black smoke.

But what doesn't make sense at this point about Alex? What needs explaining? We know the Others like to kidnap kids. We know that Ben's a far bigger liar than Rousseau. I guess I'm just not sure what's prompting this speculation in the first place. I mean, we didn't see Christian Shephard and Claire's mom having sex, or even lying naked in bed together. So why hasn't anyone ever brought up that Ben might be Claire's dad?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

jamesbobo said:


> As far as Alex being pregnant, I think Ben thinks she is. The camera panned to her abdomen as Ben was looking at her and a small bulge was showing. Ben said that the temple could be the last safe place on the Island. I took that to mean it was the one possible place where she could give birth and not die.
> 
> But I need my memory refreashed, who is Annie?


Ben's childhood friend from the episode where we saw him arriving on the island when he was around 12 years old. ("The Man Behind The Curtain") What became of her was never really explained. It seemed that they were close and that he wouldn't have killed her off in the purge (which was years later), but it was never addressed either way.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> It might not have been verified, but usually after someone lies, and then is caught in the lie, then tells what seems to be the truth, it usually is. (in Lost I mean). It made perfect sense after she explained why she had made up the story about the black smoke.
> 
> But what doesn't make sense at this point about Alex? What needs explaining? We know the Others like to kidnap kids. We know that Ben's a far bigger liar than Rousseau. I guess I'm just not sure what's prompting this speculation in the first place. I mean, we didn't see Christian Shephard and Claire's mom having sex, or even lying naked in bed together. So why hasn't anyone ever brought up that Ben might be Claire's dad?


Very little of Danielle's stories have been vetted to where she would be caught in the lie in the first place. She says she has been there 16 years, which means DHARMA would have been in full force, yet she doesn't mention anything about DHARMA, only the Others, who she claims only to have heard in the form of whispers but never actually seen. So she thinks Sayid is an Other and tortures him for info about Alex. Yet, when she captures Ben - the first real Other she has encountered in 16 years, apparently - she doesn't question him about Alex, she hands him over to the Losties, telling Sayid not to trust him and that he "will lie, for a long time... he will lie." How does she know that?

She also said that the radio tower was near the Black Rock and controlled by the Others; but the radio tower is on a hill, in a clearing and abandoned. I just think there is very little on which to base her credibility.

And as far why the speculation in the first place, it keeps me busy between episodes. And if Claire had been born on the Island, and her mom also lived on the Island Claire's entire life, and Claire was raised by Ben; then the idea of Ben being her dad would probably be floated...


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## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Seems to me that there's a lot on this show that currently makes no sense. I don't know why this idea is any more absurd than so much that goes on.


+1 This is the thought that comes to mind everytime someone shoots someone's theory down.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

latrobe7 said:


> Very little of Danielle's stories have been vetted to where she would be caught in the lie in the first place. She says she has been there 16 years, which means DHARMA would have been in full force, yet she doesn't mention anything about DHARMA, only the Others, who she claims only to have heard in the form of whispers but never actually seen. So she thinks Sayid is an Other and tortures him for info about Alex. Yet, when she captures Ben - the first real Other she has encountered in 16 years, apparently - she doesn't question him about Alex, she hands him over to the Losties, telling Sayid not to trust him and that he "will lie, for a long time... he will lie." How does she know that?
> 
> She also said that the radio tower was near the Black Rock and controlled by the Others; but the radio tower is on a hill, in a clearing and abandoned. I just think there is very little on which to base her credibility.
> 
> And as far why the speculation in the first place, it keeps me busy between episodes. And if Claire had been born on the Island, and her mom also lived on the Island Claire's entire life, and Claire was raised by Ben; then the idea of Ben being her dad would probably be floated...


I guess. But I'm going to remain skeptical until we at least see Ben and Danielle lying naked in bed together. And if that's all they show, I'm sure there'll still be more debate about it.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I don't have anything Lost related to say, but it's my 100th post and this where I wanted it to be.


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## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

Cindy1230 said:


> I don't have anything Lost related to say, but it's my 100th post and this where I wanted it to be.


Then HAPPY YAMM to you! :up:


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Very little of Danielle's stories have been vetted to where she would be caught in the lie in the first place. *She says she has been there 16 years, which means DHARMA would have been in full force, yet she doesn't mention anything about DHARMA,* only the Others, who she claims only to have heard in the form of whispers but never actually seen. So she thinks Sayid is an Other and tortures him for info about Alex. Yet, when she captures Ben - the first real Other she has encountered in 16 years, apparently - she doesn't question him about Alex, she hands him over to the Losties, telling Sayid not to trust him and that he "will lie, for a long time... he will lie." How does she know that?


Why do you say that DHARMA would have been around 16 years ago when Danielle's ship crashed on the Island? I don't remember any specific time clues for the Purge, but I remember getting the sense that it was mid-80s.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why do you say that DHARMA would have been around 16 years ago when Danielle's ship crashed on the Island? I don't remember any specific time clues for the Purge, but I remember getting the sense that it was mid-80s.


True. I can't see how Ben could have had Alex at the time of the purge. I know they've gone back to previous scenes from different perspectives and stuff, but Alex would have been VERY young at that time if she had been born by then. Roger's corpse looked pretty rotted. (I'm not a forensic anthropologist, but I watch them on TV.) I think the purge was before Alex was born. Have we had any indication that Dharma was into kidnapping children?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Why do you say that DHARMA would have been around 16 years ago when Danielle's ship crashed on the Island? I don't remember any specific time clues for the Purge, but I remember getting the sense that it was mid-80s.


Based on Mikhail's story that he came to the Island 11 years prior 2004 as a member of the DHARMA Intiative. The producers have said that we should believe Mikhail's story, except that he was not a member of DHARMA.

ETA: Also, Kelvin Inman, who was in DHARMA (in the Hatch) could not have gotten to the Island before the early 90's, due to his participation in the first Iraq invasion.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

latrobe7 said:


> Based on Mikhail's story that he came to the Island 11 years prior 2004 as a member of the DHARMA Intiative. The producers have said that we should believe Mikhail's story, except that he was not a member of DHARMA.


Interesting. I don't remember Mikhail saying that, but I don't doubt it's true. I guess that means the Purge was sometime in the 90s then.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I don't remember where I was reading it, but I thought the purge was around 1996.

Greg


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> I guess that means the Purge was sometime in the 90s then.


There's hints of it happening in the 80's, too; like the Blast-Door map indicates some 'incident' happened in 1984 and/or 1985 - but my bet is that the Incident refers to something other than the Purge.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> There's hints of it happening in the 80's, too; like the Blast-Door map indicates some 'incident' happened in 1984 and/or 1985 - but my bet is that the Incident refers to something other than the Purge.


I think this incident was an electromagnetic event.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The podcast promises us


Spoiler



an electromagnetic event and more purple sky!


 I can't wait! :up:


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

gchance said:


> I don't remember where I was reading it, but I thought the purge was around 1996.
> 
> Greg


Interesting. Same year that unstuck Desmond is from.


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

After watching last night's enhanced replay of "Beginning of the End" I'm backing off the idea that Alex is Ben's biological daughter.

It's true that in "Meet Kevin Johnson", Danielle did not object when Ben referred to Alex as his daughter, but I had forgotten how she smacked him and clearly said "She's not your daughter" in this episode. And in the 'enhanced' pop-ups, they reiterated Danielle's story of being shipwrecked for 16 years. If that story was false, I'm thinking they would have put some qualifier before the story, like "Danielle says she was shipwrecked..." but instead they just state the story.

Regarding the timeline not matching up in terms of Danielle arriving before the purge; I think maybe the purge did happen in the 80's. Although Kelvin could not have arrived on the island prior to the early 90's; his job was to man the Swan. Ben and the Others supposedly did not know of the Swan until the Losties found the Hatch (link). So maybe the Swan occupants were kept isolated from the rest of DHARMA; they knew something happened and that gas was released and that's why Kelvin would always wear the protective suit when he went outside - which was very similar to the suits worn by Charlotte and Faraday, BTW. At some point he realized the danger from the gas had past and something had happened to the rest of DHARMA. He kept wearing the suit as a ruse to keep Desmond from coming out of the hatch and Kelvin could work on his escape plan...

But then again, there's Mikhail's story, which is supposed to be true, where he says he arrived in '93 before the purge. And Danielle's stories and interactions with Ben still don't make sense so I'm not abandoning the Danielle-is-Annie theory entirely quite yet...


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> After watching last night's enhanced replay of "Beginning of the End" I'm backing off the idea that Alex is Ben's biological daughter.
> 
> It's true that in "Meet Kevin Johnson", Danielle did not object when Ben referred to Alex as his daughter, but I had forgotten how she smacked him and clearly said "She's not your daughter" in this episode. And in the 'enhanced' pop-ups, they reiterated Danielle's story of being shipwrecked for 16 years. If that story was false, I'm thinking they would have put some qualifier before the story, like "Danielle says she was shipwrecked..." but instead they just state the story.


Danielle's actions you cite provide motive for sociopathic Ben having his OTHERS shoot the crazy French lady; he had a different motive for caping Alex's needy sperm factory boyfriend.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Interesting. But, remember in season three when Kate wore that hat and looked really hot?



And then later she wasn't wearing a hat, but was STILL really hot?


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## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

At the temple will we see the three toed statue


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## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

gchance said:


> WOW. Are you saying that someone wants to see Rose in a bikini, coming out of the ocean, in the rain?
> 
> Greg


Speaking as a middle-aged man.ummm...yes.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

rondotcom said:


> At the temple will we see the three toed statue


Four-toed. And I hope we learn something of the ancient islanders.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> After watching last night's enhanced replay of "Beginning of the End" I'm backing off the idea that Alex is Ben's biological daughter.


I rewatched it as well, and did you catch the OTHER butt crack that we missed earlier?

It just wasn't as pleasant as Naomi's...

Greg


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Interesting. But, remember in season three when Kate wore that hat and looked really hot?
> 
> And then later she wasn't wearing a hat, but was STILL really hot?


You most definitely have a point here!

Greg


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

gchance said:


> I rewatched it as well, and did you catch the OTHER butt crack that we missed earlier?


Ah, yes; the "cannonball" moment - that one I don't think I need to see the screen-shot of.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

19 days to go. I can't believe we are all out of speculations!


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## woolybugger (Nov 12, 2004)

Anyone been playing on Find815.com? I had finished the game a while back and just went back to the site. It's just showing a journal page and a pic of Sam. I can't seem to find anything to click on. Anyone else?


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## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

woolybugger said:


> Anyone been playing on Find815.com? I had finished the game a while back and just went back to the site. It's just showing a journal page and a pic of Sam. I can't seem to find anything to click on. Anyone else?


Yeah, it's been that way for a week or so now. I can't find anything to click on either, there's some discussion at DarkUFO, but it doesn't seem as if anyone knows anything else...


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## woolybugger (Nov 12, 2004)

latrobe7 said:


> Yeah, it's been that way for a week or so now. I can't find anything to click on either, there's some discussion at DarkUFO, but it doesn't seem as if anyone knows anything else...


Thanks, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything!


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

I finally watched 4/10th Eli Stone and saw a new preview. 
~10 days to go!!!!


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