# TiVo Mini Vox: MoCA vs Ethernet



## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

Which do you guys think is better to connect in a large house? MoCA or ethernet? I have a gigabit switch but also have ability to connect via MoCA. I have a total of 7 Minis, and I'm replacing 3 of them with Mini Vox's.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

What model is(are) the host DVR(s)? And what are you using as your current MoCA bridge?


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

If the wiring is in place, Ethernet, no question.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

I’m connecting to a Bolt+.


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

Moca is the better way to go. But its your choice.

Hail Hydra

Jack


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

Out of curiosity, why is one better than the other?


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## JACKASTOR (May 26, 2011)

geekmedic said:


> Out of curiosity, why is one better than the other?


This link might help
MoCA Frequently Asked Questions


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

MoCA is shared media (multiple devices share the available bandwidth), Ethernet is not. Ethernet is plug-and-play. Based on the number of people around here asking how to get it working, MoCA it is not, especially if your coax isn't all "home run" to a central location. 1000BASE-T was designed for an error rate of 1e-10, MoCA 2.0 for 1e-8. Ethernet is faster, easier, and more reliable.

MoCA may become easier if you don't have Ethernet cabling in place, but do have coax. I use both Ethernet and MoCA, but MoCA only in places where it would be a PITA to run Ethernet.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Whichever is easiest to wire, which in vast majority of homes will likely by MoCA because coax is already there. MoCA, if it works initially, will be just as reliable as Ethernet.


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## Sptrader (Oct 7, 2017)

slowbiscuit said:


> Whichever is easiest to wire, which in vast majority of homes will likely by MoCA because coax is already there. MoCA, if it works initially, will be just as reliable as Ethernet.


Cost is another factor. I just ran 100' of Cat6 outdoor shielded cable from my router to my mini in another room- total cost $17.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

I have ethernet in most rooms.


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## Bill Fallon (Nov 2, 2017)

I am not an expert on this. And I am new to TiVo. I have a TiVo Bolt and one Mini VOX, Verizon Fios with Quantum Gateway router @ 75 MPS. The CoAx off the fiber optics is split 4 ways, then split 2 ways at each TV so to also pick up unscrambled channels on the TV tuner. I did upgrade the splitters to 5 MHZ - 2.4 GHZ. The Quantum Gateway router has MoCA 2.0 bridge in addition to wireless and 4 port Ethernet switch. I also have each room wired with Cat5e Ethernet. But I use the Ethernet connections for Roku, Playstation, etc. But the Bolt has a MoCA bridge, in my case I had to set up the Bolt as a MoCA client. I tried both ways (MoCA/Ethernet), and found that MoCA works fine for me. And I read that MoCA 2.0 can handle up to 400 MPS. And in my amature mind, using MoCA keeps TiVo traffic off Ethernet that other devices are using (not sure if that is meaningful) and uses the existing CoAx plant with no additional Ethernet wiring or Ethernet switches required (just some upgrades to splitters which are low cost). So IMHO, use MoCA first, and if it works ok, keep using unless you have an issue.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

Does the Bolt+ and Mini Vox use 2.0? If you have older style Minis mixed in the mix, will it limit MoCA to 1.1 or can you have the Bolt+ do both 1.1 and 2.0 to be compatible with all devices? (Maybe @TiVo_Ted knows the answer to this.) I have my Bolt+ hooked to ethernet and serving as a MoCA bridge for the devices that do not have easy access to ethernet.


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## Bill Fallon (Nov 2, 2017)

My Bolt and Mini Vox both show network version 2.0. I don't know if the MoCA bridge that is built into the TiVo is compatible with previous MoCA versions. I would guess that they would. The TiVo MoCA bridge (sold separately) states that it is MoCA 2.0 and is compatible with TiVo BOLT/BOLT+, TiVo Mini and TiVo Roamio Plus/Pro.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

@Bill Fallon What I was curious about is if you mix 1.1 and 2.0 devices (Mini being 1.1, Vox being 2.0), will the entire network scale back to 1.1? For some reason I think I read that somewhere. In order to utilize 2.0, all devices connected via MoCA must be 2.0-compliant. Hopefully I'm wrong.

If I can mix them and the Vox connect to my Bolt+ via MoCA 2.0, I may switch it back to MoCA instead of ethernet just to offload some traffic from my network (I have 11 high-def security cameras that also take up bandwidth).


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

MoCA is peer-to-peer and two MoCA nodes should communicate with each other at the highest spec supported by both nodes:

any pair of Mini v1/v2, Roamio Plus/Pro or 4-tuner Premiere at MoCA 1.1 (170 Mbps)

a BOLT and a Mini v1/v2, Roamio Plus/Pro or 4-tuner Premiere at MoCA 1.1 (170 Mbps)
2 BOLTs at standard MoCA 2.0 (400 Mbps)

a BOLT and a Mini VOX at std MoCA 2.0
2 Actiontec ECB6200 adapters at bonded MoCA 2.0 (800 Mbps)
1 Actiontec ECB6200 and a BOLT or TiVo Bridge (ECB6000) at std MoCA 2.0
Some devices, however, *have* been reported to cause issues. Any MoCA 1.0 device will throttle or block MoCA connectivity, and I believe the Actiontec WCB3000N has been seen to cause all devices to drop to MoCA 1.1 speeds. (see here!!)


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## xxsj (Jun 21, 2016)

What about noise from DOCSIS3.1? I heard it uses higher spectrum that some iterations of MoCA relies on.

I’m hopeful that MoCA 2.5 adapters will solve some of my issues with ethernet “green link” switches without a performance loss.

Does anyone know if the Mini’s connected over MoCA connect to on demand apps (xfinity) directly over the coax or is it still routed through the Bolt?


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## sfhub (Jan 6, 2007)

xxsj said:


> What about noise from DOCSIS3.1? I heard it uses higher spectrum that some iterations of MoCA relies on.


You'll probably need to install a splitter on the incoming line with a MoCA filter (either external or built-in to splitter) to isolate the home network/video side, from the cable run that goes to the cable modem. Basically instead of the MoCA filter as the first attachment on the incoming line, it'll be attached to the side of the split that supplies the house with video and the other side of the split will essentially be a line directly between cable operator and cable modem.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

geekmedic said:


> Which do you guys think is better to connect in a large house? MoCA or ethernet? I have a gigabit switch but also have ability to connect via MoCA. I have a total of 7 Minis, and I'm replacing 3 of them with Mini Vox's.


I voted for Ethernet(since there was no option like "it doesn't matter") but realistically, from a user perspective, you will see zero difference between using MoCA and using the Ethernet port. So either one will work great.


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## emuman100 (Jul 3, 2003)

If you own your home, run cat 5 or cat 6 to your rooms like you would coax cable. Plug them into a good quality switch, like a Cisco enterprise switch. 2960G's are cheap and are really good switches.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

emuman100 said:


> If you own your home, run cat 5 or cat 6 to your rooms like you would coax cable. Plug them into a good quality switch, like a Cisco enterprise switch. 2960G's are cheap and are really good switches.


I have CAT6 in most rooms. I have Ubiquiti UniFi switches (48-port master switch with a bunch of 8-port switches throughout my home). Most of my devices like AppleTV, Samsung TV's, etc. are wired. I try to limit wireless devices as much as possible to maximize throughput for things that need it (laptops, iPads, etc.).


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## xxsj (Jun 21, 2016)

Cat7 or at the least Cat6a. And use conduit.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

So I have 2 Minis (Vox) hooked to ethernet and 5 Minis (3 Vox, 2 Gen 1) hooked to MoCA and cannot tell the difference in initiating a video stream or in buffering/lag issues.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

xxsj said:


> Cat7 or at the least Cat6a. And use conduit.


I have CAT6 run throughout my house. Did it 7 years ago. 6a was too expensive then. (Would love to have CAT7 throughout for when 802.11bz comes around in full force.)


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

geekmedic said:


> I have CAT6 run throughout my house. Did it 7 years ago. 6a was too expensive then. (Would love to have CAT7 throughout for when 802.11bz comes around in full force.)


You will still be able to get 5Gbps over Cat6 with 802.11bz. Or 2.5Gbps over Cat5e.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

I use Moca so my Minis can talk to my Roamio without bothering the rest of my network and visa-versa. Not a big deal, I just like the idea of separating the networks.


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## mr_milo (Jan 22, 2018)

jonw747 said:


> I use Moca so my Minis can talk to my Roamio without bothering the rest of my network and visa-versa. Not a big deal, I just like the idea of separating the networks.


Are they really separate networks? I thought the same and therefore set mine up with MoCa but I noticed that the Roamio pulled two IP addresses (one for ethernet & one for MoCA) from my router and the Mini pulled one IP address (for MoCa) from the router. Makes me wonder if they truly are separate networks.(?)


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

mr_milo said:


> Are they really separate networks? I thought the same and therefore set mine up with MoCa but I noticed that the Roamio pulled two IP addresses (one for ethernet & one for MoCA) from my router and the Mini pulled one IP address (for MoCa) from the router. Makes me wonder if they truly are separate networks.(?)


Same home network and IP address space (network subnet), but different physical segments, where traffic between devices using the same networking type will be isolated from the other network segments.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> Same home network and IP address space (network subnet), but different physical segments, where traffic between devices using the same networking type will be isolated from the other network segments.


yes. This is what I've been doing with my TiVo devices for years. But I've had no choice since I have over one hundred devices on my home network. So I physically segment my TiVo devices on it's own part of my network.

I did it this way since it would have been cost prohibitive to change out all my unmanaged switches to managed switches. So I have four physically separated segments on my home network. That only need to go through the switch in my router if they communicate with a device on another segment of the network or access the internet. Without having my network setup this way I would have major issues.

I also have my fifteen IP cameras on it's own segment. Since they are 24/7/365 sending data to a PC that aggregates the video from all the cameras.

And then I have a WiFi segment. And a segment for my media players, PCs etc.


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## Bill Fallon (Nov 2, 2017)

When I setup my Bolt on Verizon Fios w/Quantum Gateway router, since the router already has a MoCa 2.0 bridge, I needed to setup the Bolt on MoCa client. However, I learned to accomplish that, I had to initially setup the Bolt on Ethernet, the Bolt gets assigned an IP Address, then go back in the setup and switch the Bolt from Ethernet to MoCa client, and the same IP address from the Ethernet setup is assigned and used. So it seems apparent to me it is the same network. But my best understanding is that the Tivo traffic between the Bolt and the Mini and the other apps would be over the CoAx plant switched by/through the MoCa 2.0 bridge and isolated from the Ethernet and WiFi segments. The Quantum Gateway, as other wireless routers, also have multi WiFi segments as well (2.4 GHZ and 5 GHZ). Though screen mirroring or casting can be troublesome using devices on different segments.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bill Fallon said:


> But my best understanding is that the Tivo traffic between the Bolt and the Mini and the other apps would be over the CoAx plant switched by/through the MoCa 2.0 bridge and isolated from the Ethernet and WiFi segments.


MoCA is peer-to-peer, so the BOLT and Mini, both MoCA-connected, would communicate directly with each other. Each device would communicate with/through the MoCA bridge only when needing to connect with non-MoCA devices (and the Internet).



Bill Fallon said:


> I had to *initially setup the Bolt on Ethernet*, the Bolt gets assigned an IP Address, then go back in the setup and *switch the Bolt from Ethernet to MoCa* client, and the same IP address from the Ethernet setup is assigned and used.


This two-step process shouldn't be necessary. (Though maybe a software update also occurred after the initial Ethernet connection, fixing some MoCA bug. ???)


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## Bill Fallon (Nov 2, 2017)

krkaufman said:


> MoCA is peer-to-peer, so the BOLT and Mini, both MoCA-connected, would communicate directly with each other. Each device would communicate with/through the MoCA bridge only when needing to connect with non-MoCA devices (and the Internet).
> 
> This two-step process shouldn't be necessary. (Though maybe a software update also occurred after the initial Ethernet connection, fixing some MoCA bug. ???)


The Bolt was a real pain setting this up on MoCa with the Verizon Fios Quantum Gateway. I followed the installation instructions, called Tivo tech support (they told me to change the splitters) with no success. I then came across this forum and found something in a thread to do the two step setup process. And it worked. And once it sets up, nothing further. See my last reply on this at Picture Quality Issue on Bolt using MoCa. Hopefully they have fixed this quirk. I can see that folks who are novices on this stuff (not that I am an expert) could really struggle as most folks have no clue about MoCa, let alone know that their router already has the MoCa bridge and the user can not use Moca bridge on the Bolt as it will conflict with the MoCa bridge on the router.


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## Dwheat (Feb 15, 2018)

I don’t have anyone to run the cat5 so I went and bought an Airport Express and set it up as an extender and put it next to the mini and ran cat 5 from it to the mini. It worked!


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## Bill Fallon (Nov 2, 2017)

Dwheat said:


> I don't have anyone to run the cat5 so I went and bought an Airport Express and set it up as an extender and put it next to the mini and ran cat 5 from it to the mini. It worked!


Sounds like you have your TV in a spot where running Ethernet is not reasonable and there is no existing CoAx or running CoAx is not reasonable? I know some cable systems use wireless from their base stations to their client receivers. I believe TiVo chooses to stick with wired connections only. And using wireless distribution systems does cut down on the data throughput. IMHO, I would only go this route when there is no CoAx at the site of the Mini and running CoAx or Ethernet is not reasonable. But it is good to know that this is a possible solution. Thanks for sharing.


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## huntson (Dec 21, 2012)

Does anyone have any clue how much bandwidth a VOX Mini uses to stream TV from a Roamio or the like? I have a very specific usage application and I’d like to know what the average bandwidth people have observed for strictly TV watching on a mini is. I won’t be home for a week otherwise I’d observe myself.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

huntson said:


> Does anyone have any clue how much bandwidth a VOX Mini uses to stream TV from a Roamio or the like? I have a very specific usage application and I'd like to know what the average bandwidth people have observed for strictly TV watching on a mini is. I won't be home for a week otherwise I'd observe myself.


I believe 720/1080p is around 8-10 Mbps and 4K is around 15-20 Mbps.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

huntson said:


> Does anyone have any clue how much bandwidth a VOX Mini uses to stream TV from a Roamio or the like? I have a very specific usage application and I'd like to know what the average bandwidth people have observed for strictly TV watching on a mini is. I won't be home for a week otherwise I'd observe myself.


It depends. A local station could use as much as 19Mb/s if they maxed out their bandwidth and used no sub-channels. But typically they are much lower. And then if you are on Comcast, which lowers the resolution of channels to only 720P and uses H.264, they are probably using 7Mb/s or less for their channels.

Either way though they are all very low bitrates.


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## huntson (Dec 21, 2012)

On Optimum in New York I am seeing average of 8.5mbps.


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## Brandon Vaughan (Dec 16, 2017)

Guys, I was reading this thread and I just spent several hours on the phone with Tivo. Bill, would love to get those instructions that you used and what you ran into as I have pretty much the exact same setup as you and everything. I have 4 minis and a Bolt. Ever since I got this thing the minis work fine then after say 20 min they drop the connection to the bolt. I have to go in and refresh the IP and then it works again for another 20. This happens on everyone of them. I have tried different switches with no success. Tivo basically is no help and they said for the first time in 2 + years yesterday that with that many minis that moca is better. I was so pissed that this is the first time I have heard of this. Before I go out and struggle with getting this thing converted over to moca, can I get any insight into dealing with this and have you guys heard of this before?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Brandon Vaughan said:


> I have 4 minis and a Bolt. ... Tivo basically is no help and they said ... that with that many minis that moca is better.


That is nonsense, and in fact is the exact opposite of reality, at least for MoCA 1.1 setups ... and as corroborated by TiVo's Custom Installers "Tips for a Successful Install" document (PDF):

_For best results when using MoCA, limit the number of TiVo devices on the network to five. If more TiVo devices are needed, please use an Ethernet connection instead._​


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Brandon Vaughan said:


> Bill, would love to get those instructions that you used and what you ran into as I have pretty much the exact same setup as you and everything.


Near as I can tell Bill is using all MoCA, but you have an all-Ethernet setup. Correct?



Brandon Vaughan said:


> I have 4 minis and a Bolt. Ever since I got this thing the minis work fine then after say 20 min they drop the connection to the bolt. ... I have tried different switches with no success.


What brand & model are you using for your router and any switch?

The first thing I'd recommend is checking whether your router and switch have an IGMP Snooping (or IGMP Proxy) setting, and if it's enabled. Many have found it necessary to disable IGMP Snooping to achieve a stable TiVo Ethernet network. (see this post for more info/examples)


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## Bill Fallon (Nov 2, 2017)

Brandon Vaughan said:


> Guys, I was reading this thread and I just spent several hours on the phone with Tivo. Bill, would love to get those instructions that you used and what you ran into as I have pretty much the exact same setup as you and everything. I have 4 minis and a Bolt.


Ok. First I have a Bolt and one Mini on Verizon Fios with the Quantum Gateway router. I have three TV's and all rooms with TV's are wired with CoAx and Cat5e. Long story short, my understanding is that MoCA 2.0 is faster and stronger than Cat5e. And I want to use Ethernet for my other devices such as Roku, etc. and utilize the existing CoAX plant for TV/Tivo. I see you feel frustrated and somewhat agitated from Tivo customer support, as I was...... but I found help and the answer to my issues here at the Tivo forum. My best advice is for those TV's with existing CoAX or CoAx is easily ran to use MoCA 2.0. The only advice is to make sure your CoAX plant is tops.... that being all connections are rock solid and splitters are at or exceed specs at => 1 GHZ. This is all relatively inexpensive as long as there is good CoAX wiring to all. I removed the eight connection whole house splitter with a four way 2.4 Ghz for the three TV's and the router. I will deal with remaining connections as needed.

Second My issue with Verizon Fios with the Quantum Gateway router, was that the router has MoCA 2.0 as does the Bolt, so you cannot set the Bolt up as a "Bridge" since there is already a bridge in the Fios router. Then the problem arises in the assignment of the IP address setup...... long story short, you need to setup the Bolt and the Mini's as described below. Once the router sets up the IP address to the Bolt/Mini's on Ethernet then go back and switch to MoCA and from there on I have had no issues. If your router does not have a MoCA bridge, then setup the Bolt as MoCA bridge and the Mini's as described below. If you don't have Ethernet to each TV, setup the Bolt/mini's at or near the router using an Ethernet patch cord to the router and when successful, move them to their new spot connected via CoAX. IMHO, MoCA is plenty strong for everything I need to do on the Tivo. Tivo boxes are so superior to the Verizon STB's. All the smart TV apps work flawlessly without utilizing wifi. I do not use the Roku's nearly as much as I did before switching to Tivo. Except when we need apps like Nick, Disney, PBS Jr. etc. when our grandkids are here.

Any of the other technical stuff, I do not have any expertise.

*on Verizon Fios with the Quantum Gateway router, with both Ethernet and MoCA wired networks, to use MoCA on the Bolt, you must first setup the Bolt up on Ethernet*, the Bolt will have an assigned IP address and make a connection, *then go back to Network Settings and change from Ethernet to MoCA client (not bridge)*, follow the prompts, disconnect the Ethernet cable from the Bolt, select OK, follow the default prompts, and the MoCA client now had the same IP address from Ethernet and it did connect to the Quantum Gateway router.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Know this thread is old, but wanted to say thanks. I decided to swap out my original Mini for a Mini Vox to go along with my recently added Bolt Vox. Swapped everything over to MoCA vs Ethernet on my Fios setup and all is working great (Bolt Vox, Mimi Vox, Roamio Plus).


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