# What is the latest on the HDR issue?



## ListedGuru (Jul 23, 2020)

I've been thinking about getting the Tivo Stream 4K to run my Sling subscription as well as my other streaming services I sub to. What exactly is the HDR issue? It sounds like HDR is on all the time for all content (is that correct)? So would HDR be on when I'm watching the regular channels on Sling (not 4K stuff)? What about Dolby Vision? Does that work like it's supposed to? 

I currently have Roku's but recently found out that they are all single band and therefore can't see my 5ghz wifi network. Per the specs the Tivo Stream 4K is dual band. I have also read that sling runs really well on the Tivo and is very snappy. I just worry about the above mentioned HDR issue. Hopefully it gets fixed soon unless it has been already?

Also does anyone think the price will stay where it is after the end of July? I see Amazon is now selling the device as well.

Thanks,

-Guru


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## Alex_7 (Jun 24, 2020)

HDR is always on correct. Which I think causes the screen to flicker sometimes.

Tivo said the update was coming in late June, its now almost August and we are still waiting for the update..

I feel that the price will stay at the discount promo price for a little while, no official announcement just my speculation. I purchased my device directly from tivo, I recommend ordering through amazon since their return and customer service is a lot better than tivo's.


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## Robert Simandl (Jan 16, 2004)

The always-on HDR causes non-HDR-encoded content (even the device's own menus) to look oversaturated, blown out, and cartoony. I returned mine for this reason.


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## ListedGuru (Jul 23, 2020)

Robert Simandl said:


> The always-on HDR causes non-HDR-encoded content (even the device's own menus) to look oversaturated, blown out, and cartoony. I returned mine for this reason.


Well that doesn't sound promising. Maybe I'll wait and see if they release a fix for this before I make the jump. Hopefully the price doesn't jump up though. I think this streamer would work really well for me.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

It boggles the mind that they haven't figured out how to turn HDR _off_ when the more likely scenario should have been that a company promised to turn it _on_ (something that, in theory, would have required more work on the development side).

Personally, I would not buy the TS4K hoping for any more than what you get when you buy it. Do not expect updates. While the device has potential, TiVo has made it clear that they are not interested in providing any significant support for it. When a company can't manage to meet their own deadlines from the beginning, do not expect them to suddenly make it a priority.

Now, regarding the price: I would not expect it to go up to $70, ever. The AirTV Mini is the only competition and it's priced at $80. Saving $30 gets you a device that works proportionally less well. If they bump it to $70, only an idiot would choose it over the AirTV Mini. And once Google's Sabrina (aka Chromecast Ultra 2) is out (possibly at $70-80), the TS4K will likely start its death spiral, even at $50. If they bump the price, it's immediately dead.

And that's not taking into account that there are already cheaper, better-performing options from Roku (which I hate) and Amazon (which I don't love, but it's hard to beat a $25 Fire Stick 4K). If the Mi TV Stick 4K ever materializes...well, I'd rather give my money to them.


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## ListedGuru (Jul 23, 2020)

rczrider said:


> It boggles the mind that they haven't figured out how to turn HDR _off_ when the more likely scenario should have been that a company promised to turn it _on_ (something that, in theory, would have required more work on the development side).
> 
> Personally, I would not buy the TS4K hoping for any more than what you get when you buy it. Do not expect updates. While the device has potential, TiVo has made it clear that they are not interested in providing any significant support for it. When a company can't manage to meet their own deadlines from the beginning, do not expect them to suddenly make it a priority.
> 
> ...


I like the fact that the TS4K also has the peacock app available on it as well. Not sure what I'll do at this point. I really need a stick that's dual band so it'll find my 5ghz wifi network. I guess a Roku Streaming Stick+ is dual band. So is a Fire stick 4K but I don't have any experience with the fire stick.

I wonder when the new Google stick is going to come out? That might be the one to get. Decisions, Decisions.


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## Alex_7 (Jun 24, 2020)

ListedGuru said:


> I like the fact that the TS4K also has the peacock app available on it as well. Not sure what I'll do at this point. I really need a stick that's dual band so it'll find my 5ghz wifi network. I guess a Roku Streaming Stick+ is dual band. So is a Fire stick 4K but I don't have any experience with the fire stick.
> 
> I wonder when the new Google stick is going to come out? That might be the one to get. Decisions, Decisions.


You can sideload the peacock app to the firestick


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## ListedGuru (Jul 23, 2020)

Alex_7 said:


> You can sideload the peacock app to the firestick


Is that easy to do (and legal)? Sorry I've never sideloaded an app before. Thanks for the tip.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

ListedGuru said:


> I like the fact that the TS4K also has the peacock app available on it as well. Not sure what I'll do at this point. I really need a stick that's dual band so it'll find my 5ghz wifi network. I guess a Roku Streaming Stick+ is dual band. So is a Fire stick 4K but I don't have any experience with the fire stick.
> 
> I wonder when the new Google stick is going to come out? That might be the one to get. Decisions, Decisions.


I'd go with the Fire Stick 4K over a Roku any day. If you haven't purchased one on your Amazon account before, you should be able to get it for $25 using the promo code 4KFIRETV through the end of the year.



ListedGuru said:


> Is that easy to do (and legal)? Sorry I've never sideloaded an app before. Thanks for the tip.


It's not hard, just more work than using an app store. I'd say the only way it's illegal is if you download a "pro" version of an app that you're supposed to pay for. Apps that simply give you access to a paid subscription (Netflix, Hulu, Peacock, etc) still require that subscription, so you're not "stealing" anything.

Anyway, here's a how-to: Sideload Fire TV Apps on Your Fire TV Stick or Cube

I would suggest getting the APK from apkpure or apkmirror, since they don't (as far as I know) host illegal content so what you're getting are untouched / unmodified APKs.


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## jaselzer (Sep 10, 2018)

rczrider said:


> I'd go with the Fire Stick 4K over a Roku any day. If you haven't purchased one on your Amazon account before, you should be able to get it for $25 using the promo code 4KFIRETV through the end of the year.
> 
> It's not hard, just more work than using an app store. I'd say the only way it's illegal is if you download a "pro" version of an app that you're supposed to pay for. Apps that simply give you access to a paid subscription (Netflix, Hulu, Peacock, etc) still require that subscription, so you're not "stealing" anything.
> 
> ...


The problem with side loading is that the app will not auto-update. One day, sooner rather than later, the sideloaded app will not work properly and you'll have to go and find it again and reinstall the new APK. Just my 2 cents.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jaselzer said:


> The problem with side loading is that the app will not auto-update. One day, sooner rather than later, the sideloaded app will not work properly and you'll have to go and find it again and reinstall the new APK. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly. That was my experience with HBO Max on FireTV. Just stops working after a while until you manually update again.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

jaselzer said:


> The problem with side loading is that the app will not auto-update. One day, sooner rather than later, the sideloaded app will not work properly and you'll have to go and find it again and reinstall the new APK. Just my 2 cents.





moyekj said:


> Exactly. That was my experience with HBO Max on FireTV. Just stops working after a while until you manually update again.


So...you manually update.

I guess if you're like the other guy who has 8 TVs in their house and a device on each one, that could become a big hassle, but it's literally just a few minutes every couple of months. I'll take that over spending twice as much on a buggy device that sucks to use every time.

Everyone's situation is different, though. I'm not actually advocating the Fire Stick 4K and sideloading as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm simply pointing out that as of this moment right now, the average person who doesn't need or want every streaming service available would probably find the Fire Stick 4K at $25 to be a better purchase than the TS4K at $50.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

rczrider said:


> So...you manually update.
> 
> I guess if you're like the other guy who has 8 TVs in their house and a device on each one, that could become a big hassle, but it's literally just a few minutes every couple of months. I'll take that over spending twice as much on a buggy device that sucks to use every time.
> 
> Everyone's situation is different, though. I'm not actually advocating the Fire Stick 4K and sideloading as the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm simply pointing out that as of this moment right now, the average person who doesn't need or want every streaming service available would probably find the Fire Stick 4K at $25 to be a better purchase than the TS4K at $50.


If you don't care about either HBO Max or Peacock, and you don't mind the cluttered Fire TV UI, then the Fire TV Stick 4K at half the price is definitely a better deal than the TS4K.

As for sideloading the HBO Max or Peacock apps, I'm not sure it's just something that would only need to be done every couple of months. I've read reports of folks sideloading HBO Max more than once on Fire TV and then it stops working in the next 24-48 hours. Maybe that's not the norm though?

For folks who already have a Fire TV, sure, give sideloading a try. But if HBO Max and/or Peacock are services you care about, I don't think it makes sense to purchase a Fire TV device right now.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

Robert Simandl said:


> The always-on HDR causes non-HDR-encoded content (even the device's own menus) to look oversaturated, blown out, and cartoony. I returned mine for this reason.


This is only true if you don't bother to make sure the display is also in HDR mode and most importantly, setup properly.

All that has to happen is the SDR rec709 video content is supposed to be mapped to the HDR bt2020 gamut in the TS4K, and it is, so it should most definitely display properly if all settings are correct.

This is no different than when I calibrate my display and have it setup as 4K HDR bt2020 output and in the CalMAN calibration process it goes through each color gamut choice in succession, rec709, DCI-P3, bt2020 to make sure each is mapped correctly into the HDR bt2020 color space. It does this all without changing the source test patterns out of 4K HDR bt2020 mode.

I know this is true and no I won't argue with you.

I do however agree that we should be given a choice, so I agree there should be an update to allow this.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

NashGuy said:


> If you don't care about either HBO Max or Peacock, and you don't mind the cluttered Fire TV UI, then the Fire TV Stick 4K at half the price is definitely a better deal than the TS4K.


You forgot "functional". The Fire Stick 4K is functional out of the box; the TS4K is buggy and appears abandoned.

Again, I'm not a huge Fire Stick fan. I agree about the UI and while not difficult, sideloading is annoying. But buying something like the TS4K knowing the bugs it has and realizing that TiVo can't even meet their own deadlines for fixing them seems like a disappointment waiting to happen.

Now, if you don't care about it being half-baked and staying that way - and paying twice as much for the privilege - then sure, the TS4K is a steal.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

rczrider said:


> You forgot "functional". The Fire Stick 4K is functional out of the box; the TS4K is buggy and appears abandoned.
> 
> Again, I'm not a huge Fire Stick fan. I agree about the UI and while not difficult, sideloading is annoying. But buying something like the TS4K knowing the bugs it has and realizing that TiVo can't even meet their own deadlines for fixing them seems like a disappointment waiting to happen.
> 
> Now, if you don't care about it being half-baked and staying that way - and paying twice as much for the privilege - then sure, the TS4K is a steal.


The Fire Stick also on hardware revision 4?5? It also has had plenty of bugs over the years


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

rczrider said:


> You forgot "functional". The Fire Stick 4K is functional out of the box; the TS4K is buggy and appears abandoned.
> 
> Again, I'm not a huge Fire Stick fan. I agree about the UI and while not difficult, sideloading is annoying. But buying something like the TS4K knowing the bugs it has and realizing that TiVo can't even meet their own deadlines for fixing them seems like a disappointment waiting to happen.
> 
> Now, if you don't care about it being half-baked and staying that way - and paying twice as much for the privilege - then sure, the TS4K is a steal.


Whether you see the TS4K as "functional" largely depends on your tastes, your set-up and the specific apps you use. As I understand it, the complaints boil down to these:


forced HDR output if connected to an HDR-capable TV
HDMI-CEC bugs with some TVs, receivers, soundbars, etc. (Some of the HDMI-CEC bugs were squashed in an earlier update but the problem lingers for *some* set-ups.)
flashing/blinking video with output set to 60Hz when using certain niche apps like Kodi

Do you realize that a LOT of the buying public would not be bothered by these issues or even realize they exist? Most folks still don't have an HDR-capable TV. And among those who do, many actually *like* having that feature engaged all the time, even if it means having very saturated colors that video purists see as unnatural looking. As for the HDMI-CEC bugs, again, these are sporadic and don't affect everyone. Lots of folks don't make use of HDMI-CEC. They have a TV and use its internal speakers. They have a streaming device and maybe a disc player connected to the TV. And the HDMI-CEC feature can be turned off on those devices if necessary. Lastly, most consumers have no idea what Kodi is.

The problems you have with the TS4K are the sorts of things that bother video/tech geeks, i.e. the sort of guys who come to websites like this. And, yes, those things would bother me too. But video geeks aren't the norm among the buying public. Which is why you can find lots of positive reviews for the TS4K elsewhere from folks who say it runs great; they have no idea about the bugs that you find so bothersome.

Now, if the existing issues that the TS4K has happen to be deal-breakers for you, then it would probably be a good idea to hold off on buying it to see if TiVo does come through with a fix for those issues as they said they would. But again, for lots of consumers, when weighing the pros and cons of the TS4K against those of a Fire TV or Roku, the TS4K would come out ahead.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

I recognize that the TiVo 4K Stream is not perfect. I find it perfectly usable. I find it a great way to find entertainment when I don't know what I want to watch, it gives me a great place to look on all my streaming services on one device. Sure it's not perfect, but ya know, I just don't let perfection be the enemy of good.

Oh, and I can assure you, I have a fairly decent understanding of the technical issues.


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## Alex_7 (Jun 24, 2020)

NashGuy said:


> Whether you see the TS4K as "functional" largely depends on your tastes, your set-up and the specific apps you use. As I understand it, the complaints boil down to these:
> 
> 
> forced HDR output if connected to an HDR-capable TV
> ...


Out of all the bugs, the only one that bothers me the most is the flickering screen on kodi/or other sideloaded apks. The HDR always on issue doesn't bother me at all.
I found a temporary fix for the flashing video, I set the framerates below 30HZ, but the issue with that is that it makes everything else stuttery (fubotv, hbo max, netflix, etc.) So I have to switch to 30HZ and then back to 24HZ when I want to use Kodi again, Very annoying, Still waiting on their update, ugh.

EDIT: and sometimes when I press the power button on the remote to turn on my tv I get an hdmi source not available, I have to click another button on the remote to "wake up" the tivo stream.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

NashGuy said:


> Most folks still don't have an HDR-capable TV. And among those who do, many actually *like* having that feature engaged all the time, even if it means having very saturated colors that video purists see as unnatural looking. ....
> 
> .....The problems you have with the TS4K are the sorts of things that bother video/tech geeks, i.e. the sort of guys who come to websites like this. And, yes, those things would bother me too. But video geeks aren't the norm among the buying public.....


I already explained why this is incorrect.

I am a "video purist" and a "tech geek" that understands it all. Enough that I know (and apparently more) it isn't an issue that it maps the regular rec709 to bt2020, when the display is set properly. It happens all the time, like when UHD Blurays are mastered to DCI-P3 points, but it's mapped into a bt2020 gamut container. Also enough to know that I agree it should be a choice as well.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

Again, to each their own. Anyone who thinks this device is anything but DOA is kidding themselves and I'm not sure why (maybe they're sentimental or feel their investment in the company warrants overlooking TiVo's mistakes). TiVo has set deadlines and missed them. They're unresponsive to user requests. Customer service is awful.

There are new devices on the horizon. Once those are out, the TS4K will become even less popular than it is now. And if TiVo isn't going to support it as they should (because they haven't), good riddance. I, for one, will dissuade anyone from purchasing one until TiVo indicates that they're actually interested in supporting it.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

rczrider said:


> Again, to each their own. Anyone who thinks this device is anything but DOA is kidding themselves and I'm not sure why (maybe they're sentimental or feel their investment in the company warrants overlooking TiVo's mistakes). TiVo has set deadlines and missed them. They're unresponsive to user requests. Customer service is awful.
> 
> There are new devices on the horizon. Once those are out, the TS4K will become even less popular than it is now. And if TiVo isn't going to support it as they should (because they haven't), good riddance. I, for one, will dissuade anyone from purchasing one until TiVo indicates that they're actually interested in supporting it.


And you're entitled... but it works for me. I have an LG Smart TV, that gets most services, but to get other services I was using a older Roku (HD only, no UHD). I wanted a way to watch those streaming services in UHD, The TiVo Stream for $50 covers most of the bases, and the old Roku moves over to my old 720p 26" office tv. I'm a satisficed camper.

And add the benefit of the Stream portion grouping a lot of my services into one App... I'm even happier.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BillyClyde said:


> I already explained why this is incorrect.
> 
> I am a "video purist" and a "tech geek" that understands it all. Enough that I know (and apparently more) it isn't an issue that it maps the regular rec709 to bt2020, when the display is set properly. It happens all the time, like when UHD Blurays are mastered to DCI-P3 points, but it's mapped into a bt2020 gamut container. Also enough to know that I agree it should be a choice as well.


Eh, if you're a video purist and you really want to correct for the TS4K's forced fake HDR, then you'd need a pro calibration for your TV's HDR display profile for the TS4K's HDMI input. And even then, you'd end up with colors that look right for content intended to be viewed as SDR rec.709 but that look incorrect for native HDR bt.2020 content. You have to calibrate for one or the other.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

And now it works extremely well with Channels DVR with its remote integration so appears to be the best one stop solution for a Live Streaming “cable” TV with all the popular apps available on the same device. It is what I was hoping this or the AT&T TV device would be from the beginning.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

NashGuy said:


> Eh, if you're a video purist and you really want to correct for the TS4K's forced fake HDR, then you'd need a pro calibration for your TV's HDR display profile for the TS4K's HDMI input. And even then, you'd end up with colors that look right for content intended to be viewed as SDR rec.709 but that look incorrect for native HDR bt.2020 content. You have to calibrate for one or the other.


This is also incorrect. Perhaps you should learn how Color gamut mapping works. I gave you an example that they use right now with UHD Bluray players and discs, and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have to make any new, separate settings, memories or modes. If you setup and calibrate to the bt2020 Color gamut and profile, it will work correctly whether the source maps rec709, P3 or full bt2020 into said color gamut.

This is exactly why you can plop in a UHD Blu-ray Disc mastered to P3 Color points and it will display it properly, and then throw in one that is either rec709 or wider and closer to bt2020 and it'll also map and look correctly.


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## ListedGuru (Jul 23, 2020)

rczrider said:


> Again, to each their own. Anyone who thinks this device is anything but DOA is kidding themselves and I'm not sure why (maybe they're sentimental or feel their investment in the company warrants overlooking TiVo's mistakes). TiVo has set deadlines and missed them. They're unresponsive to user requests. Customer service is awful.
> 
> There are new devices on the horizon. Once those are out, the TS4K will become even less popular than it is now. And if TiVo isn't going to support it as they should (because they haven't), good riddance. I, for one, will dissuade anyone from purchasing one until TiVo indicates that they're actually interested in supporting it.


What devices that are on the horizon are of interest to you? I'm the op here and I was really interested in the TS4K but the always on HDR (even on non 4K content) is a deal breaker for me. If they get that fixed here soon I may give it another look. I'm looking forward to the new Google device code named "Sabrina." Hopefully they do a good job with that. I'm looking for a good quality all around android streamer. I thought the TS4K was going to be it but I'm in wait and see mode. I've heard great things about the Nvidia Shields but they are a little rich for me.

-Guru


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

ListedGuru said:


> I'm the op here and I was really interested in the TS4K but the always on HDR (even on non 4K content) is a deal breaker for me. If they get that fixed here soon I may give it another look.
> -Guru


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## ListedGuru (Jul 23, 2020)

BillyClyde said:


>


So are you saying the always on HDR even on non 4k stuff isn't a big deal in regular viewing? Doesn't it make everything look overly saturated and cartoonish? I'm just going by what I've read online.

-Guru


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

ListedGuru said:


> What devices that are on the horizon are of interest to you? I'm the op here and I was really interested in the TS4K but the always on HDR (even on non 4K content) is a deal breaker for me. If they get that fixed here soon I may give it another look. I'm looking forward to the new Google device code named "Sabrina." Hopefully they do a good job with that. I'm looking for a good quality all around android streamer. I thought the TS4K was going to be it but I'm in wait and see mode. I've heard great things about the Nvidia Shields but they are a little rich for me.


IMO, the only Shield worth buying is the $200 Pro (ie. the expensive one, though I think it frequently goes on sale for $180 or so). The cheaper one is for folks who think they want (or need) a Shield but couldn't tell you why. The expensive one is for a small subset of people who actually need the power, though that doesn't keep a bunch of people from buying it just so they can say they have one.

On the horizon, primarily, is Google's Sabrina (aka Chromecast Ultra 2). I'll be surprised if it releases for less than $70 (the current Chromecast Ultra price). And there's the question of _when_ it will come out. It could be as late as October.

The Mi Stick TV 4K was rumored to be out soon, but Xiaomi has made no mention of a 4K variant and so far has only released the crappy 1080p stick. My guess: they've got a store of Mi Boxes they want to get rid of, first. Who knows how long that'll take.

There's always the AirTV Mini. It's essentially the TS4K, but actually works because it has competent developers behind it and wasn't abandoned a month after release. Of course, it's $80, so it comes down to whether you want to shell out the extra $30 for a device that works out of the box and will continue to get updates or save $30 for something that will likely not get any better than what it already is.

Roku sucks no matter which device it is, so I wouldn't consider them worth having. That's why I recommend the Fire TV Stick 4K for $25. It'll probably get you by until a device that the TS4K could have been comes out. Of course, as others have mentioned, if you _need_ the 2 streaming services that are currently Android TV exclusives _and_ sideloading scares you, it's a non-starter.



ListedGuru said:


> So are you saying the always on HDR even on non 4k stuff isn't a big deal in regular viewing? Doesn't it make everything look overly saturated and cartoonish? I'm just going by what I've read online.


This doesn't have a "correct" answer because it's just personal opinion. _Personally_, I didn't buy a nice TV so stuff can (unnecessarily!) look like garbage on it. Some people claim they don't notice it over-saturation and generally cartoonish image.

I've heard some people don't notice the "soap opera effect" that comes with true 120Hz refresh, either, but those people are also neanderthals who should have stuck with their tube TVs.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

ListedGuru said:


> So are you saying the always on HDR even on non 4k stuff isn't a big deal in regular viewing? Doesn't it make everything look overly saturated and cartoonish? I'm just going by what I've read online.
> 
> -Guru


Not if the device and/or TV maps the gamut right and it's setup properly.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

rczrider said:


> This doesn't have a "correct" answer because it's just personal opinion. _Personally_, I didn't buy a nice TV so stuff can (unnecessarily!) look like garbage on it. Some people claim they don't notice it over-saturation and generally cartoonish image.
> 
> I've heard some people don't notice the "soap opera effect" that comes with true 120Hz refresh, either, but those people are also neanderthals who should have stuck with their tube TVs.


Yes it does have a correct answer. I explained the Hows and whys.

Do you notice UHD Blu-ray Discs mastered at P3 inside a bt2020 container being over-saturated and cartoony? You shouldn't if you do, for the exact same reasons.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

ListedGuru said:


> So are you saying the always on HDR even on non 4k stuff isn't a big deal in regular viewing? Doesn't it make everything look overly saturated and cartoonish? I'm just going by what I've read online.
> 
> -Guru


My ATT box does the same thing and I was able to adjust my LG to tone down the HDR being forced. Looks fine. Now when they fix it I will have to re adjust


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## ListedGuru (Jul 23, 2020)

rczrider said:


> IMO, the only Shield worth buying is the $200 Pro (ie. the expensive one, though I think it frequently goes on sale for $180 or so). The cheaper one is for folks who think they want (or need) a Shield but couldn't tell you why. The expensive one is for a small subset of people who actually need the power, though that doesn't keep a bunch of people from buying it just so they can say they have one.
> 
> On the horizon, primarily, is Google's Sabrina (aka Chromecast Ultra 2). I'll be surprised if it releases for less than $70 (the current Chromecast Ultra price). And there's the question of _when_ it will come out. It could be as late as October.
> 
> ...


I believe I read somewhere that the airtv mini has the always on hdr 'bug' too?

-Guru


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BillyClyde said:


> This is also incorrect. Perhaps you should learn how Color gamut mapping works. I gave you an example that they use right now with UHD Bluray players and discs, and there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have to make any new, separate settings, memories or modes. If you setup and calibrate to the bt2020 Color gamut and profile, it will work correctly whether the source maps rec709, P3 or full bt2020 into said color gamut.
> 
> This is exactly why you can plop in a UHD Blu-ray Disc mastered to P3 Color points and it will display it properly, and then throw in one that is either rec709 or wider and closer to bt2020 and it'll also map and look correctly.


That's because the UHD BD player knows how to correctly map. It's making the necessary adjustments before sending the video stream out to the TV.

In the case of a TS4K and your TV, what's doing the mapping? Obviously not the TS4K. Is your TV? I can tell you that if my Apple TV 4K is set to force all output in HDR10 (doing essentially what the TS4K does) and then I stream something that's natively SDR Rec.709, the color and contrast don't look great on my LG OLED (which has no choice but to display the content in an HDR10 profile). The colors are over-saturated, the blacks are crushed, etc. Now, I could tweak or calibrate the picture settings for the HDR10 profile for that HDMI input to try and tone down the color and contrast to try and make the fake HDR content look as close as possible to its original SDR Rec.709 format. But that's not the same thing as color gamut mapping.

So what are you doing to your TV to ensure appropriate color gamut mapping with the TS4K?


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

BillyClyde said:


> Yes it does have a correct answer. I explained the Hows and whys.
> 
> Do you notice UHD Blu-ray Discs mastered at P3 inside a bt2020 container being over-saturated and cartoony? You shouldn't if you do, for the exact same reasons.


I addressed this, but my post was removed and I was warned for calling your response "stupid". Apparently it's not "stupid" to think opinions are the same as facts. So let's be clear (because otherwise feelings get hurt and I don't want a mod to get upset): I don't think _you_ or your _opinion_ are "stupid". I believe you are unaware of the difference between opinions and facts. That's probably a failure on the part of public education, and that makes it unfair of me to assign your mistake to a lack of intelligence.

The _fact_ is that I have 3 HDR-capable streaming devices (Fire Stick 4K, Mi Box, Roku Ultra) that I have used with an HDR- and DV-capable TV (TCL 65R617). When I had my TS4K, that made 4 devices. Of them, only the TS4K couldn't manage to make non-HDR content look good. It did the opposite: it made the picture look bad.

Now, to say it looked "bad" is an _opinion_. You seem to be struggling to understand the concept, since you don't realize that your "Hows and whys" constitute an opinion about the _acceptability_ of the image. The post you quoted of mine was in no way a technical discussion; it was about how the TS4K makes non-HDR content look (subjectively) worse than the other streaming devices I have used.

Again, it's an _opinion_. You may think that your opinion constitutes fact, but it doesn't.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

rczrider said:


> I addressed this, but my post was removed and I was warned for calling your response "stupid". Apparently it's not "stupid" to think opinions are the same as facts. So let's be clear (because otherwise feelings get hurt and I don't want a mod to get upset): I don't think _you_ or your _opinion_ are "stupid". I believe you are unaware of the difference between opinions and facts. That's probably a failure on the part of public education, and that makes it unfair of me to assign your mistake to a lack of intelligence.
> 
> The _fact_ is that I have 3 HDR-capable streaming devices (Fire Stick 4K, Mi Box, Roku Ultra) that I have used with an HDR- and DV-capable TV (TCL 65R617). When I had my TS4K, that made 4 devices. Of them, only the TS4K couldn't manage to make non-HDR content look good. It did the opposite: it made the picture look bad.
> 
> ...


I wouldnt use the Budget R617 TV as my source of what a good picture looks like


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## jakep_82 (Oct 28, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> So what are you doing to your TV to ensure appropriate color gamut mapping with the TS4K?


I have the same question. Actual DV and HDR10 videos look fantastic on my LG CX. SDR content viewed with the TS4K in forced DV or HDR10 looks pretty terrible. The colors are oversaturated and unnatural. Whatever is doing the color gamut mapping (if anything at all) is doing a terrible job.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

jakep_82 said:


> I have the same question. Actual DV and HDR10 videos look fantastic on my LG CX. SDR content viewed with the TS4K in forced DV or HDR10 looks pretty terrible. The colors are oversaturated and unnatural. Whatever is doing the color gamut mapping (if anything at all) is doing a terrible job.


You can change those settings on your CX


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

compnurd said:


> I wouldnt use the Budget R617 TV as my source of what a good picture looks like


Well, for one, I have the 65R625 (same line, but a year newer and with a better panel). My mistake.

From rtings: "This TV has excellent color gamut. This is expected, as the quantum dot color used to produce a wide color gamut was one of the main advertised features of this TV." In your defense, they also say: "It's a noticeable improvement over the TCL R617".

And in any case, we're talking about the picture coming from a $50 streaming dongle. If you think a $1100 set (MSRP, so of course I didn't pay anywhere near that) can't possibly do the TS4K justice - or despite all evidence to contrary, it's the _TV _that's the problem - I'm hesitant to give your opinion very much weight. You might have a point if we were talking about a $200 Seiki from Walmart, though.


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## jakep_82 (Oct 28, 2014)

compnurd said:


> You can change those settings on your CX


If I adjust my HDR settings to make SDR content from the TS4K look right, then actual HDR content looks terrible. This isn't a solution for me, and it's why my TS4K is not currently connected to my TV.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

jakep_82 said:


> If I adjust my HDR settings to make SDR content from the TS4K look right, then actual HDR content looks terrible. This isn't a solution for me, and it's why my TS4K is not currently connected to my TV.


Exactly. Maybe there's some more technologically sophisticated answer (such as using some kind of intermediary device between the TS4K and the TV that correctly remaps the color gamut and dynamic range) but I don't know of one.

All I can think to do (until TiVo themselves hopefully corrects the issue with a future update to the TS4K) is to set two different HDR picture settings profiles on my TV, with one of them toned down to try and correct for fake HDR (i.e. make it look more like SDR Rec.709) and the other set for actual HDR. And then switch back and forth between the two profiles on the TV depending on what is being streamed from the TS4K.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

jakep_82 said:


> If I adjust my HDR settings to make SDR content from the TS4K look right, then actual HDR content looks terrible. This isn't a solution for me, and it's why my TS4K is not currently connected to my TV.


You can set multiple custom settings for a single input


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

rczrider said:


> Well, for one, I have the 65R625 (same line, but a year newer and with a better panel). My mistake.
> 
> From rtings: "This TV has excellent color gamut. This is expected, as the quantum dot color used to produce a wide color gamut was one of the main advertised features of this TV." In your defense, they also say: "It's a noticeable improvement over the TCL R617".
> 
> And in any case, we're talking about the picture coming from a $50 streaming dongle. If you think a $1100 set (MSRP, so of course I didn't pay anywhere near that) can't possibly do the TS4K justice - or despite all evidence to contrary, it's the _TV _that's the problem - I'm hesitant to give your opinion very much weight. You might have a point if we were talking about a $200 Seiki from Walmart, though.


I along with many others could care less what weight you give our opinion. It's a budget TV


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## jakep_82 (Oct 28, 2014)

compnurd said:


> You can set multiple custom settings for a single input


While I could do this, it's far from convenient. And even if I was willing to do this, my wife is not, so this is still a nonstarter for me. If this is the only solution I'll simply wait until Tivo releases a fix, or I'll sell it on ebay if Tivo doesn't get around to it.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

compnurd said:


> I along with many others could care less what weight you give our opinion. It's a budget TV


Ah, so can you tell me what type of TV - or cost threshold? - a person must have or meet in order for their TV to be worthy of the _amazing _picture the TS4K outputs? And should we just bypass the opinions of professionals and run it by you, instead?

Please, tell me how many thousands of dollars I need to spend!

I desperately need the approval of someone whose most meaningful contribution to the subject is "you can change those settings" on your TV in response to the TS4K obvious mishandling of non-HDR content.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

rczrider said:


> I addressed this, but my post was removed and I was warned for calling your response "stupid". Apparently it's not "stupid" to think opinions are the same as facts. So let's be clear (because otherwise feelings get hurt and I don't want a mod to get upset): I don't think _you_ or your _opinion_ are "stupid". I believe you are unaware of the difference between opinions and facts. That's probably a failure on the part of public education, and that makes it unfair of me to assign your mistake to a lack of intelligence.
> 
> The _fact_ is that I have 3 HDR-capable streaming devices (Fire Stick 4K, Mi Box, Roku Ultra) that I have used with an HDR- and DV-capable TV (TCL 65R617). When I had my TS4K, that made 4 devices. Of them, only the TS4K couldn't manage to make non-HDR content look good. It did the opposite: it made the picture look bad.
> 
> ...


It's not opinion. It is fact. I stated examples and I have the proper equipment and software to measure it. Do you? It certainly sounds like you don't, so to me it sounds like what you're saying is opinion, not me.

It sounds to me like your TVs aren't mapping the color gamut correctly. The reason those other devices look OK is because they send rec709 SD as rec709 SD. The TS4K maps its rec709 SD into a UHD HDR bt2020 gamut container, so if your TV doesn't know how to render that properly then it's on your TV, not the TS4K. I disagree with you, other than me agreeing it should give you the choice. That's where they made their biggest mistake, assuming all TVs and displays could do the proper mapping and/or users would be smart enough to know this or be able to do it on their own.

On my HT9060 I can easily set the gamut to rec709 and all is well. That's an example of not doing it automagically, but I am smart enough to know to switch the color gamut because the source is rec709. I guess your budget TV can't do that.


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## rczrider (May 16, 2020)

BillyClyde said:


> It's not opinion. It is fact. I stated examples and I have the proper equipment and software to measure it. Do you? It certainly sounds like you don't, so to me it sounds like what you're saying is opinion, not me.
> 
> It sounds to me like your TVs aren't mapping the color gamut correctly. The reason those other devices look OK is because they send rec709 SD as rec709 SD. The TS4K maps its rec709 SD into a UHD HDR bt2020 gamut container, so if your TV doesn't know how to render that properly then it's on your TV, not the TS4K. I disagree with you, other than me agreeing it should give you the choice. That's where they made their biggest mistake, assuming all TVs and displays could do the proper mapping and/or users would be smart enough to know this or be able to do it on their own.
> 
> On my HT9060 I can easily set the gamut to rec709 and all is well. That's an example of not doing it automagically, but I am smart enough to know to switch the color gamut because the source is rec709. I guess your budget TV can't do that.


Oh, whew, I was afraid you'd give up on the babbling and say something helpful.

If my $25 Fire Stick 4K can handle BT.709 and BT.2020 and send that along for my TV to handle correctly (which it does, but thank you for demonstrating again that you don't actually know what you're talking about), then your argument has no basis in reality and is therefore just opinion. The variable here is the TS4K. You can blame my "budget" TV all you want and you can telling us how excited it gets you to "properly" calibrate your TV, but I think we've reached the point where we both know you're going to blame everything _but_ the TS4K and I'm going to keep laughing at you for thinking you know what you're talking about.

To you do you, chief. If you want to think TiVo has simply aced this whole Android TV thing and everyone's complaints are because we're all too dumb to use our TVs right, you should keep telling yourself that. It clearly does _something_ for you. I'm not going to contribute to whatever it is that you get out of babbling on, though, so have fun by yourself (something I imagine you do quite a lot).


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

My 8 year old HDTV just died a few days ago so I'm getting a 4K TV next week. I never paid attention to this issue before, as it didn't apply to me, but now I'm concerned. After remapping some of the remote buttons I've really started to like the TiVo Stream 4K. But if it causes quality issues with non-HDR material, especially flickering, that's not something I'm willing to live with. I still have a Fire TV 4K sitting on the shelf so I guess I'll revert to that until TiVo gets this fixed. I don't really care for the Fire TV UI, but I'll deal with it until this issue gets fixed.


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## BillyClyde (Mar 3, 2017)

rczrider said:


> Oh, whew, I was afraid you'd give up on the babbling and say something helpful.
> 
> If my $25 Fire Stick 4K can handle BT.709 and BT.2020 and send that along for my TV to handle correctly (which it does, but thank you for demonstrating again that you don't actually know what you're talking about), then your argument has no basis in reality and is therefore just opinion. The variable here is the TS4K. You can blame my "budget" TV all you want and you can telling us how excited it gets you to "properly" calibrate your TV, but I think we've reached the point where we both know you're going to blame everything _but_ the TS4K and I'm going to keep laughing at you for thinking you know what you're talking about.
> 
> To you do you, chief. If you want to think TiVo has simply aced this whole Android TV thing and everyone's complaints are because we're all too dumb to use our TVs right, you should keep telling yourself that. It clearly does _something_ for you. I'm not going to contribute to whatever it is that you get out of babbling on, though, so have fun by yourself (something I imagine you do quite a lot).


You're quite the piece of work aren't you? I never said they "aced it" there Ace. I said they should've given us the choice, like your glorious FireTV Stick does on that budget glowing panel you call a "UHDTV".

You may need to educate yourself some:



DisplyMate said:


> *Color Management for Multiple Color Gamuts*
> 
> When a display needs to support one or more additional Color Gamuts like sRGB / Rec.709 that are smaller than its native Color Gamut, that can be accomplished with digital Color Management performed by the firmware, CPU or GPU for the display. The digital R,G,B values for each pixel in an image being displayed are first mathematically transformed so they colorimetrically move to the appropriate lower saturation colors closer to the White Point. The available Color Gamuts can either be selected manually by the user, or automatically switched if the content being displayed has an internal Tag that specifies its native Color Gamut, and that Tag is recognized by the display's Operating System or firmware. The Apple iPad Pro 9.7 implements Color Management that automatically switches between the DCI-P3 and sRGB / Rec.709 Gamuts.
> 
> Another more advanced color management approach is for the content to include meta-data with detailed specifications for the colorimetry of the content, and then it is up to the display to implement it as accurately as possible using its native Color Gamut colorimetry and photometry.


From here:
Display Color Gamuts Shoot-Out: NTSC to Rec.2020

I could go on to list link after link explaining all this, but it's not my job to educate you or anyone else here if you're going to take an attitude such as you have with me or anyone else I've seen that tries to speak civilly to you, as I've seen from numerous other posts on this forum.

Have a nice day, sir.


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Tivo/comments/i0xuz4

HDR fixes didn't make it into the coming release, so it will stay in the junk drawer useless as ever. 

r/tivo
u/tivopm

Stream 4K Firmware Update and Stream App Updates

Hi All,

Along with the Pluto VOD update we released yesterday we are rolling out new Stream 4K device firmware as well as Stream App updates over the next week or so. These have a number of additional features and functionality in them as well as fixes and general improvements! We've detailed some of that information below:

* Apps are now accessible from the Left Navigation Menu on the Stream App
* Remote Control pairing and TV/Audio Improvements
* Additional Dolby Atmos support
* Flashing video playback in some apps
* HDMI-CEC Improvements
* Many additional fixes

We know many of you have experienced a number of these issues and we hope these releases are well received. One item I know you're also concerned about is the HDR issues - whilst the changes in functionality missed this release please rest assured we'll have those in another release shortly.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

osu1991 said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Tivo/comments/i0xuz4
> 
> HDR fixes didn't make it into the coming release, so it will stay in the junk drawer useless as ever.
> ...


Makes me wonder if the HDR issue is Android related and they need Google involved since the ATT box has the same issue


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

compnurd said:


> Makes me wonder if the HDR issue is Android related and they need Google involved since the ATT box has the same issue


I've wondered the same thing. Forcing all output to either SDR or HDR is a common scenario on Android TV streamers. Google apparently hasn't built system-level tools into the OS to deal with auto-switching based on content's native dynamic range and color space. So it ends up on the OEM developer to try to engineer a solution. Took Nvidia years to come up with a solution for their original model Shield TV and I'm still not sure it works reliably system-wide.


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