# Will Series 3 or Tivo HD support Mpeg4 encoding/decoder



## Mces97 (Oct 1, 2008)

I am interested in getting a tivo series 3 or tivo hd. I was just wondering if I should wait till a series 4 eventually comes out or will the series 3 or hd be able to support native mpeg4 decoding/encoding


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

The S3/HD already supports mpeg4 decoding since that is how it plays YouTube videos.

If you are asking whether or not it will support mpeg4 decoding in the case that your cable company switches to mpeg4, that's unknown at this time.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

morac said:


> The S3/HD already supports mpeg4 decoding since that is how it plays YouTube videos.
> 
> If you are asking whether or not is will support mpeg4 decoding in the case that your cable company switches to mpeg4, that's unknown at this time.


I just wanted to ad that the S3/HD have the hardware to decode mpeg4 from the cable company, it's just a mater of it the tivo software supports it or not at this time. But with that being said, if it's not already supported it can be made to support.

I remember readying an article this summer stating that comcast will start rolling our mpeg4 in test markets later this year / early next year. So we may know an answer to this question in the next couple months.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

It will be unlikely the Series 4 will encode analog SD to MPEG4, to maintain Series 2 compatibility. So far, the only purpose of the Series 4 is for Tru2way.

That said, the Series 4 at this point is vapourware. 
I'd get a TiVoHD right now if I could.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

As stated above, some basic mpeg4 decoding capability is already there. Since 9.4 software update YouTube streaming of H.264 videos now works. Also it was discovered with 9.4 update that H.264 and mpeg2 streaming from your PC via HME is now possible as well (but that's not officially Tivo supported). Note that the mpeg4 formats supported are very specific - not just any generic mpeg4 container will work.

Encoding to mpeg4 I doubt we will ever see for S3/THD units as that is probably too CPU intensive to be done on the fly with the current hardware.


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## Mces97 (Oct 1, 2008)

I will probably hold off then on a tivo until new units come out that can encode to mpeg4. Eventually Cable services will switch to mpeg4 and I want the stream to be a direct copy, and not re-encoded to mpeg2.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Mces97 said:


> I will probably hold off then on a tivo until new units come out that can encode to mpeg4. Eventually Cable services will switch to mpeg4 and I want the stream to be a direct copy, and not re-encoded to mpeg2.


 Encoding capabilities are only needed for ANALOG channels, and for those there is nothing wrong about encoding those to mpeg2 rather than mpeg4 (either way encoding is needed). For digital mpeg2 channels Tivo does no encoding already and the same would be the case for mpeg4 channels if/when deployed. There is no reason to believe the current hardware could not handle mpeg4 in an mpeg2 transport stream container just as they already handle mpeg2 in an mpeg2 transport stream container - probably a software update would be all that is needed.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Mces97 said:


> I will probably hold off then on a tivo until new units come out that can encode to mpeg4. Eventually Cable services will switch to mpeg4 and I want the stream to be a direct copy, and not re-encoded to mpeg2.


You may be jumping the gun. I heard mpeg4.1 is around the corner, so you may want to wait until the S5 is available.

But then I also heard that a new new mpeg, mpeg98, is being developed (with mpegME right behind it), so you're prolly better off just not buying anything until you know for sure that nothing new will ever be released again.

Or you could just buy a current TiVo, and enjoy life *starting right now.*


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## rv65 (Aug 30, 2008)

All the new Cable boxes from Cisco, Samsung and Motorola now support h.264. QAM can support MPEG-4 and MPEG-2. However it would require people to change out their set top boxes since MPEG-4 will require new boxes.


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## rv65 (Aug 30, 2008)

LoREvanescence said:


> I just wanted to ad that the S3/HD have the hardware to decode mpeg4 from the cable company, it's just a mater of it the tivo software supports it or not at this time. But with that being said, if it's not already supported it can be made to support.
> 
> I remember readying an article this summer stating that comcast will start rolling our mpeg4 in test markets later this year / early next year. So we may know an answer to this question in the next couple months.


The Panasonic DVR and the RNG-200 are both MPEG-4 compatible. So is the new Motorola DCX DVR. No word on when the Panasonic DVR will come out. No word on when the Comcast Tivo software will move to those new platforms.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Cable companies are not likely to just dump MPEG2 and switch to MPEG4. More than likely if and when MPEG-4 QAM is deployed by cable companies it will be in one of the following configurations:

1. Deployed using frequencies above 860MHz. If this is done the TiVo S3/HD/XL won't be able to tune it since they don't support frequencies that high.

2. Deployed using SDV. If this is done, it may be possible for the S3/HD/XL to decode it since, as mentioned, they have the hardware to decode H.264/VC-1 and the tuning adapter specification allows for identification of MPEG-4 streams. This would require a software change in the TiVo though.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

astrohip said:


> But then I also heard that a new new mpeg, mpeg98, is being developed (with mpegME right behind it)


mpegME is just to get rid of old hardware and line everyone up for mpegXP which will only be used internally since it will work so well and instead mpegVista will roll out to make sure the techs have plenty of work. 

I doubt that anything new will be known about mepg4 from cable TV during S4 development since the S4 is being developed now. I see no benefit in waiting and not having a good DVR now.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

morac said:


> Cable companies are not likely to just dump MPEG2 and switch to MPEG4. More than likely if and when MPEG-4 QAM is deployed by cable companies it will be in one of the following configurations:
> 
> 1. Deployed using frequencies above 860MHz. If this is done the TiVo S3/HD/XL won't be able to tune it since they don't support frequencies that high.
> 
> 2. Deployed using SDV. If this is done, it may be possible for the S3/HD/XL to decode it since, as mentioned, they have the hardware to decode H.264/VC-1 and the tuning adapter specification allows for identification of MPEG-4 streams. This would require a software change in the TiVo though.


There is an even bigger reason as to why the switch over to mpeg4 will happen. And that is so more HD can be carried while using less bandwidth. They can fit a 1080i HD channel into a bandwidth space of just 7mbps with the same quality as a 20mbps mpeg2 feed.

In addition, all new HD channels launched since June now directly broadcast in mpeg4, and other networks such as all HBO and showtime have made the switch to mpeg4 over this past summer. Discovery Comunications has also announced plans to broadcast in mpeg4.

This means, that the cable companies much now convert on the fly to mpeg2, then compress the mpeg2 to fit 3 HD channels into the psace where two once were.

For this reason, comcast has announced plans to run out the direct mpeg4 feed in test markets later this year. It will only be for those who have HD channels, and those who don't already have a box capable of mpeg4 will need to get their box replaced with one that supports mpeg4 to continue to receive these channels.

MPEG4 makes a lot of since. Channel providers can add new channels to their line ups while using the same amount of satellite space, in addition the same goes for cable providers to offer more channels with the limited amount of bandwidth they have. In the next couple of years we will see a big move towards mpeg4.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

LoREvanescence said:


> For this reason, comcast has announced plans to run out the direct mpeg4 feed in test markets later this year. It will only be for those who have HD channels, and those who don't already have a box capable of mpeg4 will need to get their box replaced with one that supports mpeg4 to continue to receive these channels.


I'd love to see a link to that announcement if you have it handy.

The last I heard, the big systems were still debating SDV versus 'all digital' and everything in between including the need for millions of DTAs for a digital switch. But the DTAs are cheaper than 40 million new set top boxes that support MPEG-4. Wholesale MPEG-4 support is a long way off.


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

TolloNodre said:


> I'd love to see a link to that announcement if you have it handy.
> 
> The last I heard, the big systems were still debating SDV versus 'all digital' and everything in between including the need for millions of DTAs for a digital switch. But the DTAs are cheaper than 40 million new set top boxes that support MPEG-4. Wholesale MPEG-4 support is a long way off.


This is only one if the 3 good articles I remember reading. It's the only one I was able to relocate as I posted it here a few months ago.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6565754.html

Edit: Found another, though older. But it does talk about comcast interest in mpeg-4

http://www.cable360.net/ct/strategy/emergingtech/18534.html

And here is a little part concerning comcast



> During the May CableLabs analyst briefing, Comcast CEO Brian Roberts said he believes in the coding development and that MPEG-4 AVC is "absolutely happening, and I think cable we'll benefit from that" (improved compression). Roberts also said one way of gaining additional miles from the legacy set-top boxes would be to have them deployed in secondary rooms in homes.
> 
> Driving the transition
> 
> ...


Now I just need to find the that was published this summer, and includes more information about comcast and mpeg-4 and test markets.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

I truly look forward to Tivo supporting TTCB with mpeg4 or h.264 encoded files.......someday......


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

Interesting. I still haven't found the article I was looking for referring to comcast. 

But I did find an interesting development in September 22, 2008 the international Advanced Television Systems Committee aproved the ATSC 2.0 Standard. The ATSC 2.0 Standard includes h.264 support. Meaning that h.264/mpeg-4 is now supported for ATA broadcasts.

The article also states that we are not likely to see the change over anytime soon in the united states, as it would require ATSC 2.0 tuners in all tv's or set top boxes for existing tvs. But it does indicate that all new tv's within the next year will be on the ATSC 2.0 standards and the new h.264 broadcast are likely to be seen in other countries before the united states. 


But that is rather interesting that to say the least that h.264 has been approved for OTA.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

LoREvanescence said:


> This is only one if the 3 good articles I remember reading. It's the only one I was able to relocate as I posted it here a few months ago.
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6565754.html
> 
> ...


Awesome. Thanks for the links.

I had read that same MultiChannel article, but I took it to mean their interest (at least initially) to be only VOD and as it says 'perhaps a separate HD tier' down the road.

The wholesale "every channel" switchover to MPEG-4 would seem to be a long way off if I read between the lines they're drawing...


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## rv65 (Aug 30, 2008)

LoREvanescence said:


> This is only one if the 3 good articles I remember reading. It's the only one I was able to relocate as I posted it here a few months ago.
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6565754.html
> 
> ...


Cisco is also making RNG-200's.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jcthorne said:


> I truly look forward to Tivo supporting TTCB with mpeg4 or h.264 encoded files.......someday......


 That's supported already today with on the fly transcoding to mpeg2 with pyTivo and other TTCB tools. I suspect though you probably mean natively without transcoding. If that's the case note that streaming of H.264 to series 3 Tivos via HME is already possible (though not officially supported), so that's a good start. It would be nice if HMO (the protocol used for TTCB) also natively supported it as well and that may well be coming soon.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

moyekj said:


> That's supported already today with on the fly transcoding to mpeg2 with pyTivo and other TTCB tools. I suspect though you probably mean natively without transcoding. If that's the case note that streaming of H.264 to series 3 Tivos via HME is already possible (though not officially supported), so that's a good start. It would be nice if HMO (the protocol used for TTCB) also natively supported it as well and that may well be coming soon.


Yes, that is what I was referring to. Transcode on the fly does not work for HD resolution files. Both the transcoding and the data rates are not able to support real time. The streaming H.264 in HD resolution has not worked either. Just not enough bandwidth it seams, although there should be on a wired network.

I was longing for storing h.264 encoded video on the Tivo itself to cut file sizes and transcoding. I also think this is comming, just not soon enough


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

I could be wrong but I do not think that there is a MPEG4 encoder present on the machines. Only the decoder is available. While this does not prevent the possibility of storing MPEG4 content on the Tivo, it does prevent it from converting any MPEG2 content to MPEG4 itself. As others have stated, right now there isn't really a way to get the Tivo to store MPEG4 content. To go further there is no sanctioned way to transfer your own MPEG4 content to the Tivo at all (besides making a YouTube video and accessing it...).


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

Here's something interesting that is in the news today regarding mpeg4. There is a new article called MPEG-4 Rules HD World.

Now this article is not talking about MPEG-4 Feeds over the cable system just, but rather the witch over to MPEG-4 from the providers. In this article it talks about ABC which announced today that they will be giving all their stations MPEG-4 decodes through January. This is so the can change their primary feed to all of their stations from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 by February. They want to do this becuase they can and want to fit 3 HD MPEG-4 Feeds in the same amount of bandwidth as they currently fit their 1 HD MPEG-2 Feed.

Now this press release does not say why they want to send 3 different HD feeds to their stations. But with the deadline of the conversion in place for February when extra broadcast bandwidth opens up, you can only wonder what ABC has planned. I wonder if we will see any additional HD stations launch? Could be very interesting.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

LoREvanescence said:


> Here's something interesting that is in the news today regarding mpeg4. There is a new article called MPEG-4 Rules HD World.
> 
> Now this article is not talking about MPEG-4 Feeds over the cable system just, but rather the witch over to MPEG-4 from the providers. In this article it talks about ABC which announced today that they will be giving all their stations MPEG-4 decodes through January. This is so the can change their primary feed to all of their stations from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 by February. They want to do this becuase they can and want to fit 3 HD MPEG-4 Feeds in the same amount of bandwidth as they currently fit their 1 HD MPEG-2 Feed.
> 
> Now this press release does not say why they want to send 3 different HD feeds to their stations. But with the deadline of the conversion in place for February when extra broadcast bandwidth opens up, you can only wonder what ABC has planned. I wonder if we will see any additional HD stations launch? Could be very interesting.


Bad news is this will mean further degradation since they will be converted back to mpeg2 from mpeg4 before local broadcast (the feed used for OTA or by cable rebroadcast):


> MPEG-4 receivers will begin shipping to ABC stations this week, says ABC senior VP Rich Wolf, and the conversion should be completed by mid-January. *Stations will decode the feeds and recompress them in MPEG-2 for local broadcast delivery.*


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

socrplyr said:


> I could be wrong but I do not think that there is a MPEG4 encoder present on the machines. Only the decoder is available.


the only reason to have an Mpeg4 encoder would be to take analog signal and encode it as mpeg4. Or an mpeg2 file downloaded and converted to mpeg4.
Neither of these is all that desirable (save for disc space) Since the series 3 model shows it can handle mpeg2 or mpeg4(you tube) on the same box than that is not much of an issue.

Frankly I would want TiVo to stick with analog to Mpeg2 for the better picture quality. Cable sends mpeg4 - it will be digital and TiVo box just writes it to the hard drive and then decodes it for playback - or decodes the stream for playback in the case of YouTube


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

moyekj said:


> Bad news is this will mean further degradation since they will be converted back to mpeg2 from mpeg4 before local broadcast (the feed used for OTA or by cable rebroadcast):


That is true.

Hopefully it wont be as bad as some of the channels after comcast's compression. But then again, many networks such as HBO are already broadcasting in MPEG-4 and the cable comps are already converting it back to MPEG-2. So it may not look that bad.

Digital HD is nice. But the quality is getting worse ans worse as more and more compression is being used. I fear that won day the pictures will be so blocky or soft we will forget what HD is.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

LoREvanescence said:


> That is true.
> 
> Hopefully it wont be as bad as some of the channels after comcast's compression. But then again, many networks such as HBO are already broadcasting in MPEG-4 and the cable comps are already converting it back to MPEG-2. So it may not look that bad.
> 
> Digital HD is nice. But the quality is getting worse ans worse as more and more compression is being used. I fear that won day the pictures will be so blocky or soft we will forget what HD is.


 Yes I hate to even think about all the conversions going on. Typical best case scenario before reaching our home via cable company:
Filmed in mpeg2
Converted to mpeg4 for long-haul transmission (at least for live events conversion done in real time. Likely some dropped bits during transmission)
Converted back to mpeg2 for local broadcast (done in real time so not that great of a conversion)
Feed to cable company (likely more dropped bits during transmission)
Cable company re-muxing and bit rate shaping (intentional degradation)
Hopefully a relatively clean transmission over hybrid fiber/coax (but likely some dropped bits)


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

LoREvanescence said:


> Here's something interesting that is in the news today regarding mpeg4. There is a new article called MPEG-4 Rules HD World.
> 
> Now this article is not talking about MPEG-4 Feeds over the cable system just, but rather the witch over to MPEG-4 from the providers. In this article it talks about ABC which announced today that they will be giving all their stations MPEG-4 decodes through January. This is so the can change their primary feed to all of their stations from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 by February. They want to do this becuase they can and want to fit 3 HD MPEG-4 Feeds in the same amount of bandwidth as they currently fit their 1 HD MPEG-2 Feed.
> 
> Now this press release does not say why they want to send 3 different HD feeds to their stations. But with the deadline of the conversion in place for February when extra broadcast bandwidth opens up, you can only wonder what ABC has planned. I wonder if we will see any additional HD stations launch? Could be very interesting.


It will still need to be broadcast in MPEG2. Unfortunately they have to broadcast in MPEG2. I wish they could all switch to MEG4, that would allow plenty of bandwidth for a couple of HD channels or one HD and many Sd channels. With MPEG 2 it just degrades the main picture too much.

But we are stuck with MPEG2 here in the US for OTA broadcasting.(unless something has changed I didn't hear about)


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## LoREvanescence (Jun 19, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> It will still need to be broadcast in MPEG2. Unfortunately they have to broadcast in MPEG2. I wish they could all switch to MEG4, that would allow plenty of bandwidth for a couple of HD channels or one HD and many Sd channels. With MPEG 2 it just degrades the main picture too much.
> 
> But we are stuck with MPEG2 here in the US for OTA broadcasting.(unless something has changed I didn't hear about)


Well, something did just recently change. But it wont effect us at all any time soon.

What changes is in September the ATSC 2.0 specifications were approved for the new OTA standard which includes h.264 support.

Currently all stations in the united states will continue to broadcast in mpeg-2 and have no plans to switch over to the new standard because mpeg-2 is well in place.

However, it is thought that this could lead to some new OTA Pay Networks in some cities, or additional sub channels in h.264. It's all speculation and nothing is confirmed. It just means that it is possible and there is an official specifications. But new tv's starting next year will support ATSC 2.0 meaning that maybe a decade or two down the road when all first generation HDTV's are replaced we could have a change over.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

LoREvanescence said:


> Well, something did just recently change. But it wont effect us at all any time soon.
> 
> What changes is in September the ATSC 2.0 specifications were approved for the new OTA standard which includes h.264 support.
> 
> ...


That is a new spec but the US has not adopted it.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/09/22/atsc-2-0-includes-support-for-h-264/


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> 1)the only reason to have an Mpeg4 encoder would be to take analog signal and encode it as mpeg4. Or an mpeg2 file downloaded and converted to mpeg4.
> Neither of these is all that desirable (save for disc space) Since the series 3 model shows it can handle mpeg2 or mpeg4(you tube) on the same box than that is not much of an issue.
> 
> 2)Frankly I would want TiVo to stick with analog to Mpeg2 for the better picture quality. Cable sends mpeg4 - it will be digital and TiVo box just writes it to the hard drive and then decodes it for playback - or decodes the stream for playback in the case of YouTube


1)I wouldn't say that it isn't desirable, but just not any type of game changer. I agree that it isn't so important that the S3/HD isn't capable of encoding MPEG4.

2)I'm not sure what you are saying here. If Tivo switched to MPEG4 for analog, but kept the same bit rate the quality would be better. If they knock the bit rate down a bit it could be the same, but provide a smaller file size. Again, I agree that for analog, the size reduction is probably not worth the hassle. Now as for why I am replying. Your statement seems to imply that visual quality on MPEG4 is inferior, which only happens in a few cases. If a program is already encoded in MPEG2 and is then encoded to MPEG4, image quality will be inferior (can be very close but technically inferior). If it is at the same bit rate as an MPEG2 encode and encoded from an uncompressed source, then the MPEG4 should be superior. Now there is a point in which as you decrease the bit rate of the MPEG4 that the quality becomes equal to that of MPEG2 for encodes from an uncompressed source. Analog can be considered an uncompressed source, so theoretically an MPEG4 encoder could either have higher picture quality or smaller file size of the MPEG2 encode.
Now for the second part of what should be done for writing down the bits for an MPEG4 show that comes to it, yes it should just be recorded as is. Any re-encoding will cause a loss of picture quality. This is why most of DirecTv's shows have slightly inferior picture quality. They have re-encoded the MPEG2 streams provided by the channels to MPEG4 in order to save bandwidth. I'm sure they already receive some of them in MPEG4, so those ones should be good. In the future I see the streams being provided to cable companies and DirectTv being in MPEG4 as they will all probably move to that to save bandwidth, but want to keep the picture quality up.


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