# Upgraded Hard Drive Warranty Warning!



## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

The TiVo Upgrade FAQs I've read recommended waiting until your warranty expires before upgrading, but in reality, if you ever want your TiVo repaired, and especially if you haven't gotten your "lifetime" subscription's worth out of your TiVo, you should not open your TiVo.

I've purchased 3 TiVo's over the past 8 years. After getting my first TiVo Series 1 in 2000, a Series 2 a few years later, and a TiVo HD last year, and recommending them to friends for those 8 years, I'm DONE WITH TIVO and will never speak a positive thing about them or recommend them again!

My TiVo HD with lifetime service died after a little over a year. I upgraded the hard drive and it was running fine for a year, until the unit failed last week. I put the original drive back in to rule out drive failure, but that wasn't it. I called TiVo thinking I could pay for an out-of-warranty service. But they informed me that because I the upgraded drive, they refused to provide me with any sort of repair! 

Upgrading a TiVo hard drive is not rocket science, and I can't imagine Dell or any other reputable computer company refusing any service at all for upgrading a hard drive in one of their computers.

The rep insisted there was nothing they could do for me, and that the service was not transferable from the unit in any way. He offered to transfer my call to sales to buy a new unit and service, but I declined. I had to ask him about five times to get this answer out of him, but I finally got the information out of him that if I did not upgrade the drive, an out of warranty repair would have been an option at $150. 

So to sum up, with TiVo a warranty expiring is NOT the same as being out of warranty due to putting in your own hard drive. With the former you have a repair option. With the latter, you don't.

I have three Windows Vista Ultimate computers (which means they come with Windows Media Center), all with HD tuners, and one with HDMI output which has already been hooked up to my TV for a few months. I'm going to program my Harmony Universal Remote for them, and I will now be using them for all my DVR purposes. Not only is getting guide data free, but the recorded shows are recoverable as long as it's not your hard drive that dies. I now have a terabyte's worth of TiVo-recorded shows that I can't watch.

I have to wonder if TiVo would have given me a different answer if I was on a subscription rather than lifetime service. After all, they already have my money. I also wonder if having "lifetime" was the reason he was reluctant to tell me about the out-of-warranty repair option for people who didn't upgrade their drives. Maybe they tell people on lifetime subs they're screwed, and tell people on monthlys they can fix them.


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## Mindflux (Jan 16, 2008)

How did they know you upgraded the drive? Just curious.


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

Mindflux said:


> How did they know you upgraded the drive? Just curious.


Maybe I shouldn't have told them, but I did. I wanted to be honest and avoid the problem of sending it in, then denying repair service and being stuck with a shipping bill for nothing. However, it's been stated here and elsewhere that your TiVo reports your drive capacity size to their servers so they already know you upgraded as soon as it phones in. The guy on the phone confirmed this to me, and also mentioned a tamper sticker, but I don't think mine had one.

I can't imagine them telling someone on a month-to-month subscription that upgraded their TiVo, "sorry, we won't take your $150 to fix it and we don't need your $12.95 a month subscription anymore." The more I think about it, the more I think they're denying repair because I paid for a lifetime and only got about 15 months out of it.

Does anyone here have any experience in getting an upgraded TiVo repaired by TiVo?


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## Mindflux (Jan 16, 2008)

That's rough that you only got 15 months of service from your unit. I'm contemplating lifetime too, but after hearing this I may hold off.. though I'm sure you are more the exception than the rule as far as early failure goes.


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## Soapm (May 9, 2007)

Is it possible to put the original drive back in then send it back for the $150 deal?

This is kind of like buying a brand new Chevy, changing the motor yourself then taking it in for warranty work on the engine.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Have you considered trying again? This time play dumb about the previous call and don't mention the upgraded drive.


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

I don't think calling again will work because they open tickets assigned to your account every time you call. Basically, they know it's been upgraded and don't care if it's my original drive in there or not. I found a third party website that thinks they can repair it. It will cost a lot more than $150, and no guarantee they can. I even had the TiVo HD plugged into a very power APC UPS battery-backup to prevent electrical problems. Just came home one day to a black screen.

But oh well, I'm mad I lost a lot of money, but I'll get over it. I liked how TiVo organized its recorded shows over Windows Media Center, but that's about it. The Logitech Harmony Universal remote I got at Costco has the TiVo "peanut" feel to it and is designed with PVRs in mind. Also, a lot of Netflix's streaming library is missing from TiVo. Not to mention all the other video content I'll have access to by having a real computer hooked up. Trying to look at the positives.


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## Mindflux (Jan 16, 2008)

You could check dvrupgrade or weeknees for repair options. As long as it's not the motherboard that contains the TSN you should be ok. If it's the PSU you could luck out.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

TVDave2 said:


> I don't think calling again will work because they open tickets assigned to your account every time you call.


You know what happens when you assume...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo's power supply isn't shielded so officially tivo can't support any internal customer changes/upgrades. Computers have shielded power supplies. Computer warranties aren't voided if a customer upgrades the hard drive.

Tivo knows, from the U/L logs, that you upgraded your hard drive.

The most common sources of failure is the hard drive and the power supply. You can repair either problem. Run mfg diagnostics on both drives.

Why don't you ask tivo if you can *purchase* a refurbished unit and *transfer* your LS. The cost to purchase a refurbished unit won't be that much more then the $150 tivo is charging you to swap your unit and tivo will may let you transfer your LS to *the same model unit* when the exchange is being done as an alternative to a repair.


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

ciper said:


> You know what happens when you assume...


Considering they have all 3 of my TiVos listed on my account when I log into TiVo.com, their servers log my drive's capacities, and I have a ticket number for this problem, think it would very unlikely that they would miss it if I called them again.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

TVDave2 said:


> I now have a terabyte's worth of TiVo-recorded shows that I can't watch.


Tivo doesn't normally repair your machine. They give you a a refurbished machine. Your machine gets fixed and given to a different customer. Your shows are history. Installing your old drive in the replacement unit won't help, the shows won't play in a different tivo. You'll have to clear and delete your drive.

Same issue if a cable provided DVR goes bad.

People with hacked units are better served doing their own repairs. Power supplies and hard drives are common issues.

You might describe the errors you're getting. Someone might be able to help you solve your own problem.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Why not just wait until the warranty expires before opening up your case? I'm pretty sure that it's standard practice (Dell, Sony, etc... ).



Mindflux said:


> That's rough that you only got 15 months of service from your unit. I'm contemplating lifetime too, but after hearing this I may hold off.. though I'm sure you are more the exception than the rule as far as early failure goes.


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

lew said:


> Tivo doesn't normally repair your machine. They give you a a refurbished machine. Your machine gets fixed and given to a different customer. Your shows are history. Installing your old drive in the replacement unit won't help, the shows won't play in a different tivo. You'll have to clear and delete your drive.
> 
> Same issue if a cable provided DVR goes bad.


Good point, and something I didn't think of. That's another reason for me to switch to the Vista Media Centers I already have. I can playback HD videos I found I stored on external hard drives recorded on other computers a year ago.



lew said:


> People with hacked units are better served doing their own repairs. Power supplies and hard drives are common issues.
> 
> You might describe the errors you're getting. Someone might be able to help you solve your own problem.


I put in an order for repair from one of the online sites, but I haven't shipped it off yet, and still debating if I really want to. Unfortunately I don't have the time to mess around with the TiVo like I did before and would rather just send it off somewhere with the parts and expertise. I still have a working Series 1 with the hacked ethernet card and OS and probably spent more time playing around with it than I want to admit.

But the problem (maybe better for another forum) is basically I came home one day and noticed no picture and LED lights on the front. I unplugged and plugged it back in and it worked, but the next morning dead again. I unplugged/plugged again, got the welcome screen, but couldn't get past it. After several tries then the green LED light on the front wouldn't even come on, so the problem was getting progressively worse.

Swapped the drive with the original, booted all the way in, and I thought "great, it was only the drive." But when I tried to connect to service, it died again. Currently no green LED light, no picture. I can hear the hard drive seeking.


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

magnus said:


> Why not just wait until the warranty expires before opening up your case? I'm pretty sure that it's standard practice (Dell, Sony, etc... ).


As I mentioned in the first post in the thread, TiVo tells me the problem is an out of warranty TiVo is not regarded the same as an upgraded TiVo. If you upgraded, you not only void your warranty, they don't give you a repair/exchange option. Dell, Sony, etc., would at least allow you to pay for repair work.

Not letting me get my TiVo repaired allows them *try* to get more money for service out of me. If I was on a month-to-month, I really want to know if they'd cut me off. It would be like your cable company saying they don't want to sell you cable TV anymore because your converter box died.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

I'd have to respectfully disagree with your recommendation to not upgrade at all if you are concerned about ever having your unit repaired in the future.

It does not seem right to hold TiVo accountable for not repairing the unit, and I think it is fair to recommend not upgrading if you might expect or need a warranty repair.

But beyond that, there are several alternatives for having a unit repaired that exist beyond that of the manufacturer's services, and hopefully, those who upgrade either with professional assistance, or on their own, know about these alternatives before cracking open their box and risking damaging their units.

In your case, I'd recommend CCS Corporation who can repair most units for $99 and offer a six month warranty on their work.

Remember, this IS the TiVo Upgrade Center, and we want to ENCOURAGE people to upgrade their TiVos not discourage them. And what we also want to do is ensure that people upgrading their TiVos does not become a nuisance to TiVo; that has been the case for a very long time!

Lou


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I agree. I think Tivo should have the option. If they want to try and repair a non-stock box then that would be their right. I just can't imagine that any manufacturer would want to deal with every configuration out there.

However, if you put it back to stock... then I don't see the problem.



tivoupgrade said:


> I'd have to respectfully disagree with your recommendation to not upgrade at all if you are concerned about ever having your unit repaired in the future.
> 
> It does not seem right to hold TiVo accountable for not repairing the unit, and I think it is fair to recommend not upgrading if you might expect or need a warranty repair.
> 
> ...


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo ships a refurbished unit for a flat price. You don't get your own unit back. Without examining your unit first tivo has no way if knowing if the problem is caused by customer abuse. Dropping a screw driver on the power supply, specifically a capacitor that hasn't completely discharged and shorting out the mother board for example.

Maybe tivo should offer an option to *repair your unit.* Tivo would reserve the right to increase the repair cost, and charge for an estimate if you don't want to have the unit fixed. More likely you'd be given a maximum price close to what tivo sells refurbished units for.

The site Lou provided looks reasonable. Lou have you had any personal dealings with CSS?


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

I'm mostly saying think twice about doing it if you have the lifetime service since it gives TiVo less incentive to help you out even if the problem is due to failure of their parts and has nothing to do with the upgrade. I upgraded all three of my TiVo units which all had lifetime, and this is the first I had problems with, so I would agree that overall your chances of problems are low and the benefit probably outweighs the risk.

But right now I'm wishing I went the "official" TiVo HD route of the external hard drive option, but that's klunky and was big bucks a year ago. Now with hindsight, it would have been the better option.

I did put everything back to stock configuration, and while I agree TiVo has the right to refuse an out-of-warranty repair, it stinks. I don't believe the hardware or my upgrade modification is *really* the issue for them. The issue they see is "how can we get this guy to buy another subscription and feed us more money?" They're just looking at it as they got my money for a lifetime subscription, my unit died prematurely but out of warranty, and they made a good profit. 

The rep made it clear the lifetime subscription is tied to the unit, and there are no transfers, and that there is nothing they could do for me other than transfer me to sales to buy a new unit and subscription. It's also stated on their website that there are no lifetime service transfers to a replacement unit for out-of-warranty units. Even for unmodified stock units it would be nice if they extended the lifetime transfer policy a little outside of their hardware warranty so people could be assured of getting a little more of their money's worth, but it's more profitable for them to try to extract another subscription.

I think TiVo cheers every time an out of warranty lifetime subscription box dies. I'm really curious if anyone here has had a modified TiVo repaired/replaced by TiVo, and if so, do you have a subscription or lifetime service?


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

BTW, Thanks for the link to the site, but I checked it out and it seems a bit outdated with a lot of broken links and no reference to TiVo HD's so I'm not sure I want to go that route. And I agree my recommendation that "you should not open your TiVo" is overstated. Just was trying to make the point the risk of upgrading your TiVo is different than just letting your TiVo age out of warranty.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I don't think that's really true. It's just your perception. It might be just one CSR following the letter of the rule.



TVDave2 said:


> The issue they see is "how can we get this guy to buy another subscription and feed us more money?" They're just looking at it as they got my money for a lifetime subscription, my unit died prematurely but out of warranty, and they made a good profit.


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

lew said:


> Maybe tivo should offer an option to *repair your unit.* Tivo would reserve the right to increase the repair cost, and charge for an estimate if you don't want to have the unit fixed. More likely you'd be given a maximum price close to what tivo sells refurbished units for.


Gee, those were my thoughts exactly.  Unfortunately not so.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

A number of the commercial upgrade services offer their own warranties - I know buying an upgraded TiVo brand new gets you that warranty rather than TiVo's. I believe these same companies actually have repair services as well.

But TiVo does know if you've upgraded your TiVo - they know what storage your TiVo ships with, and when you upgrade, it reports a different value. They've so far not cared about it since most people who upgrade their TiVos don't send it for warranty repairs. If it changes, TiVo may crack down on those who upgrade via the non-official method.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

tivoupgrade said:


> I'd have to respectfully disagree with your recommendation to not upgrade at all if you are concerned about ever having your unit repaired in the future.
> 
> It does not seem right to hold TiVo accountable for not repairing the unit, and I think it is fair to recommend not upgrading if you might expect or need a warranty repair.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that advice! It's good to know that I can get my Tivo repaired from an outside firm if it craps out and it's not the hard drive or power supply.

Years ago when I was in the computer business there were a few places that I could send a mother board to get repaired when it costs a few hundred or more for a replacement. Those days have long since become non cost effective but, a Tivo with lifetime service a $99 repair seems very cost effective.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

donnoh said:


> Thanks for that advice! It's good to know that I can get my Tivo repaired from an outside firm if it craps out and it's not the hard drive or power supply.
> 
> Years ago when I was in the computer business there were a few places that I could send a mother board to get repaired when it costs a few hundred or more for a replacement. Those days have long since become non cost effective but, a Tivo with lifetime service a $99 repair seems very cost effective.


No problem.

I remember those days.

Actually, the folks at CCS are "old school" too - they know how to use their oscilloscopes and soldering irons, and although I've never met them personally, I'd guess they carry them around in holsters on their belts, too...


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## ryan87500 (Nov 30, 2004)

I had my toshiba sent in for warranty work two years ago and it was done by Tops Electronic Service

http://www.topselectronics.com/

Not sure what they charge, but maybe an option.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

tivoupgrade said:


> No problem.
> 
> I remember those days.
> 
> Actually, the folks at CCS are "old school" too - they know how to use their oscilloscopes and soldering irons, and although I've never met them personally, I'd guess they carry them around in holsters on their belts, too...


How many people know how to use an ocsilliscope? Although I spend most of my time on digital now I have to break out the O scope every once in a while when I have to fix an analog device. It's nice to see a WTF response from the younger generation that have no clue what you're doing.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

donnoh said:


> How many people know how to use an ocsilliscope? Although I spend most of my time on digital now I have to break out the O scope every once in a while when I have to fix an analog device. It's nice to see a WTF response from the younger generation that have no clue what you're doing.


That's impressive by any standard.

But now I feel old, having programmed in Fortran-66, used a data-analyzer and even done some bread-boarding.

/curmudgeon_on

...but there was a day that the only people who called themselves engineers actually had engineering degrees (or drove trains). But you see, today if you work at the 'genius bar' than you must be a genius, so if you have a computer, you must be an engineer...

/curmudgeon_off

Maybe we should start a new thread so the punch-card generation can chime in, too?

Happy New Year!

Lou


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tivoupgrade said:


> That's impressive by any standard.
> 
> But now I feel old, having programmed in Fortran-66, used a data-analyzer and even done some bread-boarding.
> 
> ...


Man, those syntax errors due to typos were a ***** to track down. I still remember when I worked on an old IBM 860(?) that filled an entire room and used punch cards. A garden variety iPod has more processing power than that monster but it was an impressive sight in its day. FWIW, I still have my quad trace o-scope waiting for some obscure chance to break it out and troubleshoot a circuit.


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

This thread is the reason that I would never pay for lifetime service on any Tivo. By paying for lifetime service, you are betting that your electronic device will last three years in order to break even. Its almost like an extended warranty which are almost never a good deal.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I disagree based on my personal experience. My lifetime unit just turned 6. Now, it's the anchor for the MSD on my other boxes. The sad part is that it's obsolete; the TV I bought doesn't have composite or s-video inputs. But all I have to do is let it call in every few months. It'll probably last a long time at that rate.

And yes, buying Lifetime service is a risk that should be calculated, the same as buying an extended warranty. But I think overall, Lifetime is a better gamble than an extended warranty.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Lifetime service wasn't being offered at the time I purchased my S3 Tivos or else I would have bought it for both of them. I've owned literally dozens of Tivos since they were first introduced and never had a single unit fail, except for the HDMI card on a couple of HR10-250's which was a common problem at the time. I've upgraded and modified every Tivo I've ever owned and had only one hard drive failure that I can recall. I was actually able to get the drive functioning again using SpinRite.

Tivos are consumer devices. All consumer electronics will have a small percentage of units that will fail prematurely. The fact is, the vast majority of units sold will live long healthy lives. If not, the company that markets them wouldn't be in business very long.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

I agree that lifetime is definitely the way to go. Our original series 1 TiVo's were in use for 7 years ($199) and 6 years ($249) before we transfered the lifetime service to 2 series 3 TiVo's ($199) which we've now had for 2 years so we've already achieved break-even point on the service. Course we did pay a premium for the Series 3 hardware but it wasn't much more than what we paid for the original series 1 ($400) with a lot more capabilities. We're also still using the second series 1 in unsubbed mode for my son's game room.

Back to the topic though, I am disappointed to hear that TiVo would not repair an upgraded TiVo with lifetime service with the original drive reinstalled. This is the first time that I've heard this and I think definitely I think a change in their unofficial policy of looking the other way regarding drive upgrades. I wonder if this is related to them actually offering their own large drive model. Note I certainly understand that they would not replace a TiVo under warranty that had been modified but to not repair one seems punitive. I would certainly understand if they wanted to charge the full price for a refurbished unit versus the $150.

Scott


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## jamesweber (Oct 24, 2007)

If you purchase a new unit of the same type (TiVoHD) you will be able to transfer the lifetime from your old TiVOHD to the new one. You do not even have to call them. You can do it yourself through the website. So if you purchase a new one from like Amazon (on sale for $212 I think) you can just transfer the lifetime yourself. It is built into their website for units that are replaced under warranty plans. The only thing it must be the same unit. If you want to test it out before you order just go to a local store and write down a number from one of the units they have in stock.

You shouldnt have any problem transferring the lifetime service. your welcome to email me if you have any questions. [email protected]


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## jamesweber (Oct 24, 2007)

In most cases the TiVo will far outlive the 3 years I have 2 that are already 5 years old and haven't given me any problems at all. My third is 2 years old and I just had to replace the fan at a cost of $6.49. It is quite rare for anything to go wrong with the TiVo itself besides the fan or hard drive. Taking out of course power surges and lightening strikes that will damage any kind of electrical equipment. Barring that as long as you keep the area the TiVo is in dusted regularly and make sure you have good air flow you should get far beyond 3 years from the TiVo worry free. Dust and heat are the most damaging elements to the TiVo.


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## jamesweber (Oct 24, 2007)

And of cousre have a good power management setup...ie. surge protector, clean power, and/or a UPS if you live in an area that has frequent power interuptions.


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## Phrehdd (Dec 21, 2008)

TVDave2 said:


> The TiVo Upgrade FAQs I've read recommended waiting until your warranty expires before upgrading, but in reality, if you ever want your TiVo repaired, and especially if you haven't gotten your "lifetime" subscription's worth out of your TiVo, you should not open your TiVo.
> 
> I've purchased 3 TiVo's over the past 8 years. After getting my first TiVo Series 1 in 2000, a Series 2 a few years later, and a TiVo HD last year, and recommending them to friends for those 8 years, I'm DONE WITH TIVO and will never speak a positive thing about them or recommend them again!
> 
> ...


I feel your pain on this issue as a customer just trying to get the best out of a purchase.

However, understand that people tinkering with the internals of hardware can do a lot of damage and trying to hold the maker responsible is not reasonable unless up front they tell you what is upgradable. If you want to use computers as an analogy, most let you upgrade RAM and hard drives. They are not keen about the CPU and video is on the fence.

My take is that TIVO misses the boat on their units by not making the drives more accessible. The TIVO HD requires cablecard slots and no reason not to have "slots" for laptop type drives (which TIVO would supply a list of acceptable drives in the 7200 rpm range). Rather than replace drives, one adds drives. I like TIVO, got the TIVO HD model for my Dad and so far, he seems happy with it. Also got the lifetime service.

It is strange that I haven't yet found "hacks" for TIVO so that one could use the system without their service. I believe that the "service" subscription makes many people back off as it really is* expensive. Paying cable or sat plus TIVO is not really a good fit for many in 2008 and certainly 2009.

As for your old store of recordings, are they on another drive? If so, if they are NFTS formatted or Mac, there are tools to strip off the ".tivo" extension and leave you with a native mpg file. I have done this on the MAC side with a script tool that someone provided in these forums. It works perfectly and even my PS3 (known to be picky on file playback) can play them. If your files were stored internally to the TIVO, I believe the format of the drive is a UNIX/Linux varient and if you are patient, you might be able to set up a flash drive with bootable linux and plug it into one of your PCs. From there it should come up in Linux and you can then plug in the TIVO drive via external USB connection. If it can read the drive, you can parse thru to find your files. The rest is a matter of transferring.

You might want to check out Ubuntu "Feisty" with respect to reading and writing to NTFS - 
http://www.ubuntugeek.com/widows-ntfs-partitions-readwrite-support-made-easy-in-ubuntu-feisty.html

If I were in your position, and liked how TIVO worked, I would opt for another on sale TIVO unit and transfer the service.. and chalk this up to a moderately expensive lesson. (Over the years I have had many 'lessons learned' and until recently worked in the IT/IS field professionally.)

*- Phrehdd*


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

I'd make a complaint with the FTC. Under federal law, TiVo cannot make the warranty conditional on it only being serviced by or using parts from them. They of course don't have to fix damage caused by 3rd parties working on it, but they can't automatically void the warranty simply because someone else worked on it.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Phrehdd said:


> The TIVO HD requires cablecard slots and no reason not to have "slots" for laptop type drives (which TIVO would supply a list of acceptable drives in the 7200 rpm range). Rather than replace drives, one adds drives. I like TIVO, got the TIVO HD model for my Dad and so far, he seems happy with it. Also got the lifetime service.


Tivo's don't really need 7200 rpm drives. The Tivo S3 models allow for an external hard drive. People can expand their units without having to open them.



alansh said:


> I'd make a complaint with the FTC. Under federal law, TiVo cannot make the warranty conditional on it only being serviced by or using parts from them. They of course don't have to fix damage caused by 3rd parties working on it, but they can't automatically void the warranty simply because someone else worked on it.


The OP is asking for an out of warranty repair. FTC rules aren't relevent.
Magnuson-Moss mainly deals with warranty disclosure rules. Magnuson-Moss doesn't allow an auto manufucter to require a consumer use the dealer for maintenance (oil changes, tires etc.) Tivo doesn't require maintenance. The power supply isn't shielded, consequently the unit doesn't have any parts that are suitable for customer repair.


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## alansh (Jan 3, 2003)

lew said:


> The OP is asking for an out of warranty repair. FTC rules aren't relevent.
> Magnuson-Moss mainly deals with warranty disclosure rules. Magnuson-Moss doesn't allow an auto manufucter to require a consumer use the dealer for maintenance (oil changes, tires etc.) Tivo doesn't require maintenance. The power supply isn't shielded, consequently the unit doesn't have any parts that are suitable for customer repair.


True on the out-of-warranty service. However, the law doesn't restrict service to "maintenance" or "user serviceable" parts. This typically comes up with car dealers that want to void warranties because a 3rd party accessory or modification was done to the vehicle. Adding a lift kit to a truck does not void the warranty even though it's not "maintenance". The car dealer won't cover any damage caused by the lift kit itself, but they can't flatly deny any warranty on the vehicle.

The sole criteria is whether the work done caused the damage that is being claimed under the warranty. If it didn't, the warranty stays in effect.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

alansh said:


> True on the out-of-warranty service. However, the law doesn't restrict service to "maintenance" or "user serviceable" parts. This typically comes up with car dealers that want to void warranties because a 3rd party accessory or modification was done to the vehicle. Adding a lift kit to a truck does not void the warranty even though it's not "maintenance". The car dealer won't cover any damage caused by the lift kit itself, but they can't flatly deny any warranty on the vehicle.
> 
> The sole criteria is whether the work done caused the damage that is being claimed under the warranty. If it didn't, the warranty stays in effect.


Customers that don't plan on hiring an attorney should assume their warranty is void if they open the unit. It's that simple.

I don't agree with your analogy.

Using a non-tivo remote won't void your warranty. Using a variety of external drives with the original S3 won't void your warranty. I suspect tivo is within their rights in denying warranty repairs to customers that open a box that's not suitable for customer repair. Magnuson-Moss talks about "tie in sales". An auto company can't tell you to only install a lift kit they sell. Tivo isn't telling you to use a tivo supplied (internal) hard drive for upgrades--They're telling you not to use any drive. Leave the unit alone. You'd have a point if tivo allowed a customer to open up the unit, as long as they purchased the drive from tivo. *I don't think the tie-in sale prohibition applies.*

JMO but a better case might be made against tivo for limiting external drives to the WD. I understand Seagate has/will have a 1T external drive, designed for DVR use. I suspect tivo's attorney's have researched this issue but I think this is closer to what you're talking about. The issue is tivo isn't specifically limiting warranty coverage but rather designing the software so other brands won't work.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Or you could really re-read all the instructions again that say "Upgrading your TiVo will void your warranty". Or buy the extended warranty service and coverage when you purchase your upgrade kits from the third parties that not only sell them, but sell upgraded TiVos with their own warranty (not TiVo's).

Sure you can probably take it to court and get TiVo to fix your TiVo, but for that, you lose all capability to upgrade other than approved methods - TiVo knows you upgraded your TiVo, and they don't anything, as long as we don't bother TiVo about it. If it starts costing them money, they'll just disable the ability to upgrade TiVos period.

And as for the "hacks" - they exist. Or at least used to, for one of them shut down a couple of years ago (wasn't needed anymore as a gentleman's agreement for existing once TiVo offered official support), the other, I haven't kept track. And probably a half-dozen more spinoffs. Just because you can't find them... well, they're prohibited on most TiVo discussion boards.


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

Cheapest way to upgrade is to do it yourself, this easily saves you the $100 or so for a repair. (assuming it's not the power supply or hard-drive that you can replace yourself if you did the upgrade)

My question - is CCS the only game in town? What other non-Tivo places do this? 

I mean, if you have lifetime, and your Tivo dies out of warranty, the only way to extend the 'lifetime' is to have -someone- repair it, even if that means them buying a new one and sending it to you. If you buy it yourself (i.e., repair it yourself) you're out of luck - go figure...


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

jeffw_00 said:


> Cheapest way to upgrade is to do it yourself, this easily saves you the $100 or so for a repair. (assuming it's not the power supply or hard-drive that you can replace yourself if you did the upgrade)
> 
> My question - is CCS the only game in town? What other non-Tivo places do this?
> 
> I mean, if you have lifetime, and your Tivo dies out of warranty, the only way to extend the 'lifetime' is to have -someone- repair it, even if that means them buying a new one and sending it to you. If you buy it yourself (i.e., repair it yourself) you're out of luck - go figure...


No, CCS is not the only game in town. Take a look up there in the upper right hand corner of the screen  ; we offer lots of options, too! 

Lou


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

jamesweber said:


> If you purchase a new unit of the same type (TiVoHD) you will be able to transfer the lifetime from your old TiVOHD to the new one. You do not even have to call them. You can do it yourself through the website. So if you purchase a new one from like Amazon (on sale for $212 I think) you can just transfer the lifetime yourself. It is built into their website for units that are replaced under warranty plans. The only thing it must be the same unit. If you want to test it out before you order just go to a local store and write down a number from one of the units they have in stock.
> 
> You shouldnt have any problem transferring the lifetime service. your welcome to email me if you have any questions. [email protected]


THANK YOU for this tip! It worked! I wasn't about to spend on a new TiVo HD plus lifetime again, and shipping it of to get fixed was going to cost me almost as much as a new TiVo hardware alone, with no guarantee that it could be fixed. I'm a bit bummed my first TiVo HD conked out quickly, but after living with Vista MC, I'm glad to be back with a working Tivo HD.

On the plus side, I tried my Elgato HD Homerun on the Mac again, and I found that they now use TV Guide for their guide data. Before they used that crappy Titan TV and their servers were never working. I have a HD Homerun and with Elgato can have two HD QAM windows onscreen at the same time, and proper guide listings, which TiVo can't do. So now I think I'll be using both for different types of recordings.


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## TVDave2 (May 10, 2002)

Worf said:


> Or you could really re-read all the instructions again that say "Upgrading your TiVo will void your warranty".


Or you could re-read the original post and the many subsequent posts I and others have made stating that the issue is not about simply voiding your warranty.


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## ChevyS10 (Mar 14, 2006)

TVDave2 said:


> THANK YOU for this tip! It worked! I wasn't about to spend on a new TiVo HD plus lifetime again, and shipping it of to get fixed was going to cost me almost as much as a new TiVo hardware alone, with no guarantee that it could be fixed. I'm a bit bummed my first TiVo HD conked out quickly, but after living with Vista MC, I'm glad to be back with a working Tivo HD.
> 
> On the plus side, I tried my Elgato HD Homerun on the Mac again, and I found that they now use TV Guide for their guide data. Before they used that crappy Titan TV and their servers were never working. I have a HD Homerun and with Elgato can have two HD QAM windows onscreen at the same time, and proper guide listings, which TiVo can't do. So now I think I'll be using both for different types of recordings.


Am I missing something? How is the transfer being done if the Tivo is past the 30 day mark?


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

ChevyS10 said:


> Am I missing something? How is the transfer being done if the Tivo is past the 30 day mark?


You can transfer a lifetime subscription from one unit, to another, as long as the two units are the SAME model type. There is an option in the 'manage my account' area of the TiVo web site where you can do this - you can pick the TiVo you want to transfer from, and enter the service ID of the TiVo you want to transfer to... their system will check to ensure they are both the same time of unit and confirm that you are eligible for the transfer.

Lou


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## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

bengalfreak said:


> This thread is the reason that I would never pay for lifetime service on any Tivo. By paying for lifetime service, you are betting that your electronic device will last three years in order to break even. Its almost like an extended warranty which are almost never a good deal.


not a good analogy. extended warranties aren't a good deal because most of the time they aren't needed beyond the original warranty.

with tivo, most of the time one doesn't need warranty repair past the original warranty. when something goes bad, it's usually the hard drive which is easily replaceable.

so yeah, it sucks if the tivo MB craps out, but really that's almost never.

statistically, one is better off not getting extended warranties (except on notebook computers!) and one needn't worry about upgrading one's tivo.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

> Although in general I like TiVo's product a lot, I will never recommend that someone purchase a "lifetime" TiVo subscription until they see fit to turn it into a *genuine* lifetime subscription - relating to the life-span of the *subscriber* rather than TiVo's definition of its *product's* "life-span.


I'd call the Lifetime service a "gamble" more so than anything else. You're gambling on whetner your hardware will last the 3 years to break even, or not. Now, hard drives die around the time, but we know it's possible to bypass this. So we're effectively gambling on whether or not the motherboard (since everything else can be replaced, and service is tied to the motherboard) will die.

For some people, they don't want to gamble, so they'll pay whatever the going rate for service is, be it monthly, yearly, whatever. For others, they hate monthly fees that can go up, so they're more willing to take the risk.

Also, you're also betting on TiVo not going belly-up in those 3 years, either.

Lifetime service is to serve a niche - some people didn't want to pay a monthly fee, and don't mind paying the $300 or so to never worry about it again. For others, they're happy paying month by month, even if the price rises the next month. And there's a mix of pre-paid annual accounts for others.

People wanted to not worry about monthly fees, TiVo complied. It's not useful for those who like to tinker with their boxes (and thus break it), but for others, it makes sense. Given the number of people here who have it, I'm guessing they feel the same way. Risk vs. reward.

And face it - lifetime is a relatively recent thing. TiVo offered it for a few years when they were first introduced, then dropped it altogether - you couldn't get if you wanted it. Then demand picked up, and TiVo offers it again. Me, I bought my Series 3 and Series 2 DT when TiVo didn't offer it. I paid $300 to pre-pay my Series 3 for 3 years - the same cost as Lifetime these days. If I want lifetime, TiVo will only do it at the end of the prepayment interval - another year from now or so. I'm considering switching my series 2 to lifetime, but the exchange rate isn't that great at the moment, and I don't have the cash to do it.


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## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Worf said:


> I'd call the Lifetime service a "gamble" more so than anything else. You're gambling on whetner your hardware will last the 3 years to break even, or not. Now, hard drives die around the time, but we know it's possible to bypass this. So we're effectively gambling on whether or not the motherboard (since everything else can be replaced, and service is tied to the motherboard) will die.


You can increase your odds in many ways. A UPS with decent run time, surge protection on your cable line and a wireless internet connection make motherboard damage fairly unlikely.


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

and if it fails, and you're on good terms with TiVo, you can get it repaired (replaced) within year 1 for $50. For year 2 use your credit-card warranty extension, for year 3 get it fixed by TiVo or 3rd party, still keep the lifetime. and the 2nd unit's likely to last at least 3 more years.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Worf said:


> I'd call the Lifetime service a "gamble" more so than anything else. You're gambling on whetner your hardware will last the 3 years to break even, or not. Now, hard drives die around the time, but we know it's possible to bypass this. So we're effectively gambling on whether or not the motherboard (since everything else can be replaced, and service is tied to the motherboard) will die.


But not really, because if you can get another box of the same vintage, you can still transfer your lifetime over to it, legitimately, unless I'm missing something.

Here's a snapshot of the screen for one of my HDR units that has a lifetime sub on it. If it dies, I'm almost certain I can pick another one up on ebay relatively inexpensively...


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## mickrussom (Dec 21, 2007)

Soapm said:


> Is it possible to put the original drive back in then send it back for the $150 deal?
> 
> This is kind of like buying a brand new Chevy, changing the motor yourself then taking it in for warranty work on the engine.


No. Its like Chevy refusing to honor a warranty because you changed the oil filter. Its a commodity part that they are attempting to de-commoditize dishonestly to manipulate the consumer customer based.

The damn things should be on a removeable carrier.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

mickrussom said:


> No. Its like Chevy refusing to honor a warranty because you changed the oil filter. Its a commodity part that they are attempting to de-commoditize dishonestly to manipulate the consumer customer based.
> 
> The damn things should be on a removeable carrier.


Not really. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, these units were never intended to be serviced by anyone, let along an end-user / consumer. The oil filter on your car IS intended to be serviced.

If you want to make a car analogy, a better one would be: Its like Chevy refusing to honor a warranty because you pulled the eeprom out of the on-board computer and replaced it with one that was programmed differently, subsequently things broke.

The good news is that there are still folks out there who will service these units regardless of whether they've been upgraded or not, so its sort of a moot point. I think all of this was already covered earlier in the discussion...


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## Mindflux (Jan 16, 2008)

tivoupgrade said:


> If you want to make a car analogy, a better one would be: Its like Chevy refusing to honor a warranty because you pulled the eeprom out of the on-board computer and replaced it with one that was programmed differently, subsequently things broke.


That's not even an accurate analogy. It's more like "you pulled the eeprom and replaced it with another one with much more storage space".

The drives themselves don't differ all that much aside from how much capacity they can retain.


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## jeffw_00 (Sep 19, 2000)

much as we'd LIKE TiVo to do things differently. We all know that if we insist on better support fro hacked units (by making an FTC stink or some such), the result will be units that are much much harder to hack.

Someone needs to make competing TiVo hardware with the hard-drive seated in an externally-accessible "slot" so that it can be pulled out and a larger one slid in.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

jeffw_00 said:


> much as we'd LIKE TiVo to do things differently. We all know that if we insist on better support fro hacked units (by making an FTC stink or some such), the result will be units that are much much harder to hack.


+1


> Someone needs to make competing TiVo hardware with the hard-drive seated in an externally-accessible "slot" so that it can be pulled out and a larger one slid in.


Tivo is gone the other way and provided support for an external drive. I wish they would certify external DVR drives from other manufacturers. Seagate is offering a 1T external drive, designed for DVR use.


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## tivoupgrade (Sep 27, 2000)

Mindflux said:


> That's not even an accurate analogy. It's more like "you pulled the eeprom and replaced it with another one with much more storage space".
> 
> The drives themselves don't differ all that much aside from how much capacity they can retain.


It doesn't really matter. The point is that you did something that wasn't intended to be done.

It's the act of opening up the TiVo and mucking about with it that voids the warranty, not what you do once you are inside there.


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