# New DTV TIVO - kind of a joke it took so long



## bbboris (Nov 20, 2010)

Well the much-anticipated TiVo DirecTV THR22 has finally arrived. 

We have been what DIRECTV terms loyal customers since 1996 and had two DVRs; one DTV HD DVR and the other the old but reliable HR10-250 which was replaced with the new unit. One member of our household simply loves the TiVo interface and really does not care for DTVs version so we waited and waited and waited for this thing to come out. I must say that we really dont care much for most for latest features, multi-room etc (although the IPAD app is kind of cool) we just wanted HD with the TIVO interface.

I elected for the self-install and the unit arrived within a few days of my order which honestly surprised me  I had expected it to take longer and wasnt even sure these units were really available. The install was fairly simple but when I called to activate the unit it became apparent I needed B-Band Converters to receive HD that unfortunately were not included in my shipment. The folks on DTVs helpdesk obviously had not received any training on this unit and I was sent to specialist who was helpful and agreed to ship me the required converters, which arrived about 3 days later.

The system functions as we expected (no IPAD app support) but I found the quality of the unit, particularly the remote to be very poor. The TIVO button has already broken and a new one is on the way. I attempted to get a real TiVo remote directly from TIVO but their units will not work with DTV hardware. The lights on the front of the unit are extremely bright, even when set to the lowest setting and there is no button on the remote to put the receiver to sleep. We have subsequently found out that this can be accomplished by accessing system settings and putting the receiver in stand-by mode, which is a terribly lame way to have to do it.

All-in-all the unit provides the basics but is a disappointment and honestly I believe that to be DTVs intention.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Strange, I had 2 B-band converters in each of my two boxes. Since I was replacing two HD-DVRs, I didn't even use them. 

Stand-by, I never use it. But to each his own I suppose. I learned a long time ago that what works for me doesn't always work for others. 

As far as the remote, again, no problems so far with mine. But also be aware, the regular DirecTV DVR remote works with the Tivo too, but you'd be missing the thumbs up and down buttons as well as slow. 

Personally, I'm ecstatic to have my Tivo back after so long.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

My 2 THR's had the B band converters in the accessory box with everything else.
There was one other thread that said the the B band converters were missing.

My remotes work fine, like the feel of the buttons, they don't have the softer feeling like the HR10 remote had. Over the years I have gone through several HR10 tiVo remotes where some of the buttons took a lot of pressure to operate as they wore out. 

The only complaint that I have with the THR22 is the fact that the circle of blue insomnia LED's can't be turned off when this box is used in the bedroom. 
What were they thinking of when they overlooked this function. Even on low, they light up the room at night.
Its fine to have them on in the living room, but for bedroom applications, the LED's need to have the option of being able to turn them off. I hate the fact that the only option for solving this is by taping a piece of cardboard over the bright blue night light that D* keeps on to antagonize me.

--->>D* is it too much to ask for that in your next software download that you add the option for turning them off? Your other boxes had the off feature, and the only time the LED's came on is when there was an update downloaded which was fine.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

BOBCAT said:


> ....
> 
> --->>D* is it too much to ask for that in your next software download that you add the option for turning them off? Your other boxes had the off feature, and the only time the LED's came on is when there was an update downloaded which was fine.


Supposedly this was a Tivo design choice. Their supports techs use the front panel lights as a diagnostic aid to detect remote control activity, so Tivo decided to disable the full OFF mode for the front panel lights.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

That is a very lame excuse since the LED's can be turned on from the front panel controls if the remote fails.


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## amseven11 (Dec 24, 2011)

that is where black electrical tape comes in handy  Also its no secret Directv wants this box to fail, I had to call numerous times to try and get one and every single time the rep basicaly was trying to talk me out of it saying it much older technology, does not support MRV, no directv cinema ondemand, etc etc. Its actually some what a pain to get them to actually get past they're trained responces on trying to get you to use the Directv DVR and not the newer tivo one.


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## BOBCAT (Nov 28, 2002)

litzdog,
After discovering how to turn off 3 of the ring LED's, the pressing of the ring buttons on the remote control lights up the ring LED of the same position. when the button on the remote is released, the LED go out.
So if TiVo used that excuse for not having an off setting isn't a valid excuse at all as even when they are off, they will flash when the remote buttons are pressed.
It also shows that a software patch can be made to have an off setting, and still have their diagnostic tool.
So much for excuses.


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## litzdog911 (Oct 18, 2002)

BOBCAT said:


> That is a very lame excuse since the LED's can be turned on from the front panel controls if the remote fails.


Agreed.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

So Tivo designed-in a flaw, on its own, DirecTV had nothing to do with it, for a purpose that makes no sense.

According to sources.

Ironically, bizzarre as this sounds, it's one of the more credible accusations against Tivo, IMHO, in this "Who deliberately crippled the new DirecTivo?" exchange of unsupported rumors; its probability may even approach 50%.


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## Athenian (Jan 14, 2004)

litzdog911 said:


> Supposedly this was a Tivo design choice. Their supports techs use the front panel lights as a diagnostic aid to detect remote control activity, so Tivo decided to disable the full OFF mode for the front panel lights.


If you use a DirecTV remote with the THR22, the OFF button will put the unit in standby and someone over at DBSTalk said he managed to find a TiVo TV code for his model that will too.

The code the installer used for ours doesn't work with mute so I plan to do some exprimenting with ours soon to enable both mute and standby.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

I think the joke, assuming there is one, may be on Tivo fanboys. Or on Tivo the company, itself.

Regarding the theory they want it to fail, DirecTV doesn't seem to feature this DVR much on their website, other than in a features grid that clearly shows that their typical garden-variety DVR has more main features than the new DTivo does. This is clearly not a "premium" DVR as was rumored (although you must pay a premium to use one month to month).

It's an alternative at best, targeted narrowly at the remaining lunatic fringe who still have a nostalgic place in their hearts for the "good old days" of 7 years ago when Tivo reigned supreme (and now is just one more ho-hum nearly-bankrupt DVR UI supplier), and at those who are so miffed by the UI design direction that DTV has taken that they refuse to ever make peace with that (who both together usually comprise the same group of short-sighted elite-ests, anyway).

What do we actually get for our extra few $ a month, one might ask? Suggestions (a fuzzy logic proprietary and all-but-useless feature than typically suggests laughable offerings) and the ability to undelete, which will likely be a wishlist feature added soon to the HD DVR+. And what else? Am I forgetting something? Looking at this another way, aren't a lot of the clever new innovations the HD DVR+ has come up with still very useful features that Tivo never dreamed of or never even considered?

Mind you, I was deeply, hopelessly in love with Tivo myself once upon a time, and I am not out to disparage Tivo; they still make a great UI. It's just sad for them that they basically rested on their laurels and for that sin were promptly and unceremoniously, caught and passed. Its not too hard to picture Tom Rogers sitting on the edge of the bed with his Glock in his mouth.

Regardless (don't do it, Tom) the new DTivo seems like far from a bargain and far from "premium"; more like DTV throwing Tivo a bone to keep them from suing over intellectual property and giving them something not very worthwhile even though it is win-win for DTV. More like "lose-break even" for Tivo.

Apple should get off of that obscenely-huge pile of cash and just buy them already for the patents and be done with it. Make Rogers a VP and give him an office in Cupertino. It's not really a much longer commute.


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## johnd01 (Dec 17, 2002)

I told D* I would be back when they had a Tivo DVR... I lied. I sholud have said that when they had a better DVR than I had.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

TyroneShoes said:


> What do we actually get for our extra few $ a month, one might ask? Suggestions (a fuzzy logic proprietary and all-but-useless feature than typically suggests laughable offerings) and the ability to undelete, which will likely be a wishlist feature added soon to the HD DVR+. And what else? Am I forgetting something? Looking at this another way, aren't a lot of the clever new innovations the HD DVR+ has come up with still very useful features that Tivo never dreamed of or never even considered?


Obviously, since I bought 2 of them, I have to disagree. And what's funny is, my main reason is what you consider all-but useless. Suggestions are massively important to me. I understand many people dislike them, but for the way I use a DVR, they are one of my favorite features.

But the Tivo does offer more than what you've listed. It's Wishlist function if far superior to the keyword search on the HR boxes. Being able to have more than 50 season passes is another feature. The trick play functions are much better on the Tivo. The prompt to delete a program when you hit the stop button in the last 5 minutes, while a small feature, is still a nice plus. The clip feature is another little plus. And finally, the Tivo guide is my wife's preferred interface.

So I understand this box doesn't have all the features of the HR boxes, but the HR boxes also don't have all the features of the Tivo. You just need to decide which features are most important to you.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

The "Wishlist" was great. That's the only thing I miss. Well that and the ability to undelete.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

TyroneShoes said:


> I think the joke, assuming there is one, may be on Tivo fanboys. Or on Tivo the company, itself.
> 
> Regarding the theory they want it to fail, DirecTV doesn't seem to feature this DVR much on their website, other than in a features grid that clearly shows that their typical garden-variety DVR has more main features than the new DTivo does. This is clearly not a "premium" DVR as was rumored (although you must pay a premium to use one month to month).
> 
> ...


This is exactly why I am getting rid of Directv very soon and going with a cable/Tivo.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

TyroneShoes said:


> It's an alternative at best, targeted narrowly at the remaining lunatic fringe who still have a nostalgic place in their hearts for the "good old days" of 7 years ago when Tivo reigned supreme (and now is just one more ho-hum nearly-bankrupt DVR UI supplier), and at those who are so miffed by the UI design direction that DTV has taken that they refuse to ever make peace with that (who both together usually comprise the same group of short-sighted elite-ests, anyway).


Are you trying to convince us, or yourself? Why come here and attack people who are simply happy to the DVR experience that they prefer? You sound like someone who is miffed because you've discovered that some folks consider your old girlfriend prettier than your new girlfriend.

Nearly bankrupt? TiVo has 650 million dollars in the bank and no debt against a loss of just 25 million last quarter. They have a long way to go to get close to bankruptcy.



> Mind you, I was deeply, hopelessly in love with Tivo myself once upon a time, and I am not out to disparage Tivo; they still make a great UI. It's just sad for them that they basically rested on their laurels and for that sin were promptly and unceremoniously, caught and passed. Its not too hard to picture Tom Rogers sitting on the edge of the bed with his Glock in his mouth.


Wow, why so bitter? Fantasies of a Tom Rogers suicide? Your old girlfriend may be prettier than your new girlfriend, but your new girlfriend isn't that unattractive. In a big-boned, gap toothed, horse faced sort of way, I mean.

You're welcome to your opinion. I doubt that I would agree and I'm not willing to take on a two year commitment just for the privilege of finding out since I'm very happy with my TiVo S3. But the reviews from THR22 owners are revealing. They suggest that while DirecTV has worked hard to check off a bunch of feature boxes that make their DVRs sound comparable to TiVo, they haven't made much progress on fundamental usability.

No wonder you're so miffed.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

nrc said:


> Nearly bankrupt?...


Hide and watch.



> No wonder you're so miffed.


Not "miffed" at all or in any way, regardless of and quite contrary to your creepy fantasies. I know you want to make sense out of what makes no sense to you but _puh-leeze_, desperate much? I am both delighted that DTV stepped up and took the lead with their own DVR and were so astoundingly successful doing it, and saddened that Tivo will give them no real competition by living up to my precise prediction that they would not. That is pretty far from any definition of "miffed".

I would be "miffed" if I were disenfranchised from being able to have the DTivo for any reason, that is if I considered it to have features and capabilities worth paying for, which I am still waiting vainly for anyone to convince me of.

I would be "miffed" if I had just replaced the aging HR10-250 among my 4 DVRs with something worse than the Dtivo (I probably will have to replace it at some point in the next year or two) which of the choices available to DTV subs now seems highly unlikely.

I would be "miffed" if I could not afford the "premium" that it will be costing you and everyone else.

But I AM NOT disenfranchised; it is available in my area; I EASILY could afford it, although I won't have to; and it's a no-brainer that I WILL NOT have to consider replacing my venerable HR10 with anything as pitifully unadvanced as what the new DTivo appears to be. I also am not a bit sorry about any of that, so, hardly "miffed". I already have what I want.



> You're welcome to your opinion...


Well, apparently not from the shoddy treatment you seem to want to dole out. If I were welcome to my opinion would I really be forced to tolerate this childishness? And I will remind you it is very likely an opinion that is much more widely held than that of the lunatic fringe. There's not even a love fest over here where one might expect one. Like I said earlier, hide and watch.

You will just have to face the facts, and here they are:

I don't have to like the new DTivo to post here, and you don't have to like the fact that I am not in the least impressed, either with you (never have been), with the DTivo, or with how you treat forum members. I don't have to like any of those things, and you don't have to like the fact that a great number of folks will agree with me and that this is the way things are going to be; you just have to live with it.

And I haven't attacked anyone, personally or otherwise, just expressed my evaluation of the reality before us. Can you claim the same? Pot, meet kettle. And those "girlfriend" fantasies...where did that come from? Really very disturbing. Deer rifle in a clock tower disturbing. You might want to move out from over that paint store and get some fresh air before you actually hurt someone.


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## scheherezade99 (Oct 15, 2004)

Lotta gun imagery here. Not cool.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

TyroneShoes said:


> Well, apparently not from the shoddy treatment you seem to want to dole out. If I were welcome to my opinion would I really be forced to tolerate this childishness? And I will remind you it is very likely an opinion that is much more widely held than that of the lunatic fringe. There's not even a love fest over here where one might expect one. Like I said earlier, hide and watch.


Why does the fact that some people prefer something different than you bother you so much? Dismissing a difference in preferences with repeated allusions to a "lunatic fringe" is certainly a personal attack on those people.

I'm amused that you have an opinion on me.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

I don't think DirecTV wants this to fail, per se, but they don't have any incentive to market this above their own DVRs. This is basically a DVR that is alive so that TiVo won't sue DirecTV. 

The likely reason it's so neutered is because TiVo had to port this to a new platform, just like they did with Comcast and the Motorola cable boxes. The THR-22 is much closer to a real TiVo than the Comcast junk, so I would be hopeful that there is a chance that over time, now that it's released, TiVo will work towards bringing this branch of their software up to parity with the Series 4.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

JosephB said:


> The THR-22 is much closer to a real TiVo than the Comcast junk, so I would be hopeful that there is a chance that over time, now that it's released, TiVo will work towards bringing this branch of their software up to parity with the Series 4.


I think improvements will be tied to how many are actually sold. If it's 100K of them then you can forget it. The current THR22 will be the last you ever see. Why should Tivo spend time and money on this version of their software when the other version of it is being used by millions of users? Software is very expensive to write, test, and maintain. Unless they can get a return on their investment it won't continue.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

HiDefGator said:


> I think improvements will be tied to how many are actually sold. If it's 100K of them then you can forget it. The current THR22 will be the last you ever see. Why should Tivo spend time and money on this version of their software when the other version of it is being used by millions of users? Software is very expensive to write, test, and maintain. Unless they can get a return on their investment it won't continue.


Tivo has about 2 million subscriptions, so 100K is a 5 percent increase. Given that Tivo has lost millions of subscriptions over the past few years, I would think they would be pleased with 100K new subscriptions.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

shwru980r said:


> Tivo has about 2 million subscriptions, so 100K is a 5 percent increase. Given that Tivo has lost millions of subscriptions over the past few years, I would think they would be pleased with 100K new subscriptions.


Tivo currently has far less than 1 million active DirecTivo's. That number has been steadily dropping over the last 4 years. If the new DirecTivo doesn't reverse that decline, then Tivo will not be able to justify maintaining an entire code base and project just for Directv Tivo users. Maybe there are that many Directv users who are hard core Tivo fans willing to pay extra for a real Tivo, but that remains to be seen. Tivo can't afford to waste engineering resources on projects with limited future potential for growth. No matter how much Tivo allocates to DirecTivo development, Directv is allocating far more to their own DVR. It's a losing game that will only continue to get worse. For every 2 engineers working on the DirecTivo, there are 5 working on new featuires for the Directv DVR family. And yes I made those numbers up. But you get the point. Tivo doesn't need people still using old Directivo's to upgrade, they need new DirecTivo users to sign up. Even Directv CSR's are apparently warning users when they request a new directivo that they are signing up for older technology that doesn't support all the features of the Directv DVR.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

Beyond drivers for the hardware, I don't see why the code base should be very different. I wouldn't be shocked to find out that all the missing features are still in the code, but are just disabled. 

The reason I say that is the Kidzone feature. When I first plugged mine in, it had it listed on the menu page. But it was gone within the first hour when the box just rebooted and installed a software update. Since I don't have kids I didn't even bother to go into it to see if it worked, but the menu item was there.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

Well the TiVo software isn't necessarily so modular that you can just plug in a different set of drivers. There's a significant amount of specialized code required for DirecTV (conditional access, SWiM, different tuners, different format & source for guide data). Luckily it does seem that the Series 4 hardware uses a similar hardware base (Broadcom BCM system on a chip) but the THR-22 is using a significantly older chip than the Premiere.

I don't know that the THR-22 will ever be more than a DirecTV Series 3, but I *do* think that as long as the relationship between DirecTV and TiVo doesn't get sour again there's a chance that there will be a Series 4 that is more compatible with all of the stuff current non-DirecTV TiVos will do. Something that is important to note, however, is that DirecTV isn't going to be very keen on TiVo encroaching on a lot of the features that they charge extra for, primarily MRV and now their Nomad service


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

JosephB said:


> Something that is important to note, however, is that DirecTV isn't going to be very keen on TiVo encroaching on a lot of the features that they charge extra for, primarily MRV and now their Nomad service


Why couldn't they still charge extra for MRV? Plus, I'm not sure, from a marketing standpoint, that D* will always charge more for MRV. Right now U-Verse is heavily pushing MRV, now with wireless receivers. I haven't seen Comcast advertising it yet (of course I don't see that many commercials), but I have to imagine once they do there will be a lot of pressure on D* to drop the charge.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

midas said:


> Why couldn't they still charge extra for MRV? Plus, I'm not sure, from a marketing standpoint, that D* will always charge more for MRV. Right now U-Verse is heavily pushing MRV, now with wireless receivers. I haven't seen Comcast advertising it yet (of course I don't see that many commercials), but I have to imagine once they do there will be a lot of pressure on D* to drop the charge.


well, the move is slowly going to be towards the home media center (the server with thin clients) and away from whole home dvr (networking multiple DVRs or full HD non-DVR receivers). No one knows what the pricing might be for the home media center, but I think it'll probably not include an additional fee.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

JosephB said:


> well, the move is slowly going to be towards the home media center (the server with thin clients) and away from whole home dvr (networking multiple DVRs or full HD non-DVR receivers). No one knows what the pricing might be for the home media center, but I think it'll probably not include an additional fee.


I, for one, hope that never happens. I hate the single point of failure that a media center presents.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

midas said:


> I, for one, hope that never happens. I hate the single point of failure that a media center presents.


Well, there's always a single point of failure in the system. In satellite it's the LNB, multiswitch, cabling, power supply for the SWM. There's no way to be 100% redundant. The trick is just for DirecTV to have a good enough support system in place to get people back up and running asap.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

JosephB said:


> Well, there's always a single point of failure in the system. In satellite it's the LNB, multiswitch, cabling, power supply for the SWM. There's no way to be 100% redundant. The trick is just for DirecTV to have a good enough support system in place to get people back up and running asap.


The issue is losing all your recordings. With multiple machines I only lose a portion. With a media center, I lose everything.


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## JosephB (Nov 19, 2010)

midas said:


> The issue is losing all your recordings. With multiple machines I only lose a portion. With a media center, I lose everything.


Fair enough, but a) hard drive failures are pretty rare and b) it's just TV. never going to have a perfect system


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## Athenian (Jan 14, 2004)

JosephB said:


> Fair enough, but a) hard drive failures are pretty rare ...


Maybe so, but lack of knowledge by technicians is not. We just spent 14 months on U-Verse and my number one complaint was that the people in tech support really don't know much about the equipment. They have two standard answers for recording problems: reset the box or have it replaced. We had two boxes replaced for issues that I knew were software bugs and each time, we lost all our recordings.

I much prefer the DirecTV model where you can use DVRs (albeit not the THD22) as clients to the server if you have them.


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## EmilyEmily (Aug 21, 2008)

After reading this thread, I was expecting the box to have no Standby capacity and for there to be no way to turn off the blue LED ring light. Now that I have the box, I see neither is true.

This DirecTiVo has a Standby mode just like the old one did -- the physical Power button on the box puts the device in Standby and turns off all the lights (except Record if a recording is in progress), including the LED ring light.

You can also still access Standby via the remote... the only change is that the Standby option has shifted from the TiVo Central menu to the Messages & Settings menu. So they haven't eliminated Standby, and in fact in a future software update could easily return it to the original location in the home menu. (I always put my old unit in Standby overnight, and I can't help thinking that the decreased recording load had something to do with the unit lasting eight years -- whereas a friend's unit that wasn't put into Standby failed after six or seven years.)


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## wluebke (Feb 4, 2011)

I replaced both of my HR10-250's with the THR22's the day they became available last month. They have been in operation for over 30 days now, everyone in the house just loves them. In fact I just checked the two HR20's in the house and I found no-one has recorded anything on them in the last 15 days. That pretty much says it all. I was forced by popular demand (read uprising) to remove the second THR-22 from my master bedroom and install it in the family room. (Luckily I don't watch much TV in bed)

The so called "outdated" Tivo interface is the GUI of choice in my house. 

I have only one THR22 hooked to the internet, yet the TIVO suggestions recordings continue to grow and offer solid program choices for the family on both THR22's. This feature never operated properly on the 10-250's but now seems to work even without the internet. Interesting. 

The new HD capability and Channel 1000 on demand seems to keep everyone blazing on the recording front. (I already ordered the internet kit for the family room to quelch the next ... Coup d'état) So many recordings in fact, that the 500GB internal hard drive is already full. 

With so many HD channels & the lack of whole house DVR on the THR-22's, DTV has forced my hand. I have already upgraded the internal hard drive in the family room THR-22 with a 2TB WD20EURS. You don't need Weak Knees, its simply plug and play. Upon initial restart the new hard drive simply format's itself and now you have over 300 hours of HD capability. Its really that simple! Yes you void the warranty, are liable for something or another, blah, blah, blah. 

I say Damn the Torpedo's ... full speed ahead!


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

wluebke said:


> I replaced both of my HR10-250's with the THR22's the day they became available last month. They have been in operation for over 30 days now, everyone in the house just loves them. In fact I just checked the two HR20's in the house and I found no-one has recorded anything on them in the last 15 days. That pretty much says it all. I was forced by popular demand (read uprising) to remove the second THR-22 from my master bedroom and install it in the family room. (Luckily I don't watch much TV in bed)
> 
> The so called "outdated" Tivo interface is the GUI of choice in my house.
> 
> ...


Wow. I threw my old HR10-250 in the trash yearssss ago when I had D*. it could only recieve a handfull of HD mpeg2 channels and D* went mpeg4. What the heck did you watch on it all these years? OTA and SD?


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## wluebke (Feb 4, 2011)

> Wow. I threw my old HR10-250 in the trash yearssss ago when I had D*. it could only recieve a handfull of HD mpeg2 channels and D* went mpeg4. What the heck did you watch on it all these years? OTA and SD?


Yup! Kept one in the master bedroom with a 4:3 TV set, the other in the family room for sports OTA with my HD projector.

The wife and kids preferred the TIVO interface for watching "TV" programs with our 60" Sony XBR. The big Sony has an excellent internal scaler/upsampler and nobody really noticed the lack of HD quality. (Until now) When we wanted to watch Movies, we simply turned on the 140" overhead projector and switched over to the HR20. (We reserved the HR20 hard drive for recording mainly HD movies.) I also have a HR20 in the living room which is where I did most of "my" TV watching and recording. I have to admit I too never really fully adapted to using the clunky DTV interface and remote. The TIVO interface rules in our house, everyone is happy with new HD TIVO, and life is all about keeping people happy!

It really comes down to what one is "used to", after all 1 million DTV TIVO owners cannot be all wrong! DTV could not ignore those numbers, with 19 million total subscribers 1 million is a significant financial minority. So the THR-22 finally materializes to service those customers. But more importantly it materializes so "the customer" now pay's for the TIVO convenience fee. No doubt half the $5 fee goes to TIVO, and the other half to DTV.

In this light it's a "Win Win" for all concerned!

So you see for us, $5 a month is a small price to pay for our preferred interface. Had our family gotten used to whole house DVR, no doubt I'd be paying an additional $8 a month for that feature too. It's "almost a given" that DTV will be adding this feature to the THR-22 as soon as technically possible. Why, because DTV is in the business of making money and that $8 a month ... well ... itaa add up!


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

wluebke said:


> Yup! Kept one in the master bedroom with a 4:3 TV set, the other in the family room for sports OTA with my HD projector.
> 
> The wife and kids preferred the TIVO interface for watching "TV" programs with our 60" Sony XBR. The big Sony has an excellent internal scaler/upsampler and nobody really noticed the lack of HD quality. (Until now) When we wanted to watch Movies, we simply turned on the 140" overhead projector and switched over to the HR20. (We reserved the HR20 hard drive for recording mainly HD movies.) I also have a HR20 in the living room which is where I did most of "my" TV watching and recording. I have to admit I too never really fully adapted to using the clunky DTV interface and remote. The TIVO interface rules in our house, everyone is happy with new HD TIVO, and life is all about keeping people happy!
> 
> ...


confused, where does the 8 dollars for whole house come in? If oyu are adding the 5.00 tivo fee to teh 3.00 whole house that would be invalid, the thr22 does not work on the whole house system


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## Cutty (Sep 8, 2007)

TyroneShoes said:


> Mind you, I was deeply, hopelessly in love with Tivo myself once upon a time, and I am not out to disparage Tivo; they still make a great UI. It's just sad for them that they basically rested on their laurels and for that sin were promptly and unceremoniously, caught and passed. Its not too hard to picture Tom Rogers sitting on the edge of the bed with his Glock in his mouth.


Rest on their Laurels? Absolutely not. Please let me remind you that TIVO invented the entire DVR concept and has successfully won patent enforcement in several levels of court vs DISH. TIVO's stagnation was the direct result of several providers who thought they could steal TIVO's UI and thus, produce their own branded DVR and cut TIVO out of the mix.

This whole issue with DTV started when DTV decided to sever their relationship with TIVO several years ago, and steal the DVR UI for themselves, and cut TIVO out of the mix, and thus, reduce their cost. The ONLY reason TIVO hasn't sued DTV is because DTV was smart enough to leave a certain amount of their business intact (while they monitored the DISH suit's progress). Had DTV completely cut TIVO off, I feel sure we would have seen a full court press suit against them, just as they did vs DISH.

It's no coincidence that as the suit (vs DISH) has made it's way through the court system and has been upheld in appeals, and thus, has progressively leveraged towards TIVO, DTV has magically decided to reinstate their relationship with TIVO. Imagine that?

Before this litigation is over, many DVR makers may end up owing TIVO a lot of royalties for the rights to use certain DVR features. The hundreds of millions awarded to TIVO in the courts (by DISH) may be just drop in the bucket compared to overall royalties that may be owed.

Kudos to TIVO for aggressively protecting their technological inventions.


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

Cutty said:


> Rest on their Laurels? Absolutely not. Please let me remind you that TIVO invented the entire DVR concept and has successfully won patent enforcement in several levels of court vs DISH. TIVO's stagnation was the direct result of several providers who thought they could steal TIVO's UI and thus, produce their own branded DVR and cut TIVO out of the mix.
> 
> This whole issue with DTV started when DTV decided to sever their relationship with TIVO several years ago, and steal the DVR UI for themselves, and cut TIVO out of the mix, and thus, reduce their cost. The ONLY reason TIVO hasn't sued DTV is because DTV was smart enough to leave a certain amount of their business intact (while they monitored the DISH suit's progress). Had DTV completely cut TIVO off, I feel sure we would have seen a full court press suit against them, just as they did vs DISH.
> 
> ...


Well said.:up:


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Well stated Cutty. Having now moved on to the DTV product I can tell you there are button push by button push direct steals on the DTV UI from the TiVo UI. While that is criminal in itself, the real insane thing is that even button push by button push, the DTV UI is not robust nor are the machines. Wierd behaviors, need for resets, multiple instances of the same program recording, just poor implementation. And these boxes from DTV have been around a long time now. None of my TiVos had those sorts of issues. Just put in your recordings, and look in the playlist and there they were. Push a button and the TiVo executes the command instantaneously. 

To get the TiVo UI on a DTV box must have been a nightmare for TiVo. I am sure they expected predictable behavior. I wonder how many things they had to fix. 

The killer is no MRV. Not even the less useful multi room streaming. Killed the box for us. We must have some sort of multi room box to box. Otherwise every recording has to be requested on more than one box. DUMB.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

I thoght Replay was right up there with Tivo, both companies where formed in 1997 and both companies introduced in 1999 and CES, so kind of a toss up as to who gets the "we where first" award


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

Cutty said:


> Rest on their Laurels? Absolutely not. Please let me remind you that TIVO invented the entire DVR concept and has successfully won patent enforcement in several levels of court vs DISH. TIVO's stagnation was the direct result of several providers who thought they could steal TIVO's UI and thus, produce their own branded DVR and cut TIVO out of the mix.
> 
> This whole issue with DTV started when DTV decided to sever their relationship with TIVO several years ago, and steal the DVR UI for themselves, and cut TIVO out of the mix, and thus, reduce their cost. The ONLY reason TIVO hasn't sued DTV is because DTV was smart enough to leave a certain amount of their business intact (while they monitored the DISH suit's progress). Had DTV completely cut TIVO off, I feel sure we would have seen a full court press suit against them, just as they did vs DISH.
> 
> ...


How much did they get from Dish Network?


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

TiVo March 31, 1999 (*without *DLB) oops

ReplayTV April 26, 1999


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

DLB in a Series 1 standalone in 1999? I don't think so...

There was a variety of prior art in the DVR field, but TiVo was the first to market with something aimed at consumers and they did a lot of things right.

I find the various tirades about other DVRs "stealing" UI elements to be ludicrous. The DirecTV UI has never looked anything like the TiVo UI.


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## wluebke (Feb 4, 2011)

> This whole issue with DTV started when DTV decided to sever their relationship with TIVO several years ago, and steal the DVR UI for themselves, and cut TIVO out of the mix, and thus, reduce their cost. The ONLY reason TIVO hasn't sued DTV is because DTV was smart enough to leave a certain amount of their business intact (while they monitored the DISH suit's progress). Had DTV completely cut TIVO off, I feel sure we would have seen a full court press suit against them, just as they did vs DISH


When it comes to large corporations logic & ethics rarely sway decisions, it always comes down to money.

Yes DTV could have shut off the Tivo units, but it was mainly the 1 million loyal DTV/Tivo customers that voted by keeping their DTV/Tivo boxes turned on year after year. Nobody, and I mean nobody, can ignore 1 million paying customers. Not Tivo, not Direct TV, not Nobody!

Fact is DirecTV and Tivo "are" back together ... and this is good for all concerned. 
A true Win-Win situation!

I thank everyone directly (an indirectly) involved with making the THR-22 DVR a reality. For the 1 million still out there with standard DTV/TIVO boxes, time to vote again by upgrading to the HD THR-22.

Now TIVO its your turn ... lets get those enhanced features working.

Pretty please, with sugar on top!


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

fasTLane said:


> TiVo March 31, 1999 (*without *DLB) oops
> 
> ReplayTV April 26, 1999


Regarding DLB, you're thinking of the first DirecTV TiVo, which arrived in late 2000 with only one tuner active.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

fasTLane said:


> TiVo March 31, 1999 (*without *DLB) oops
> 
> ReplayTV April 26, 1999


Is that market date, becasue both where shown at the 1999 ces


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## fasTLane (Nov 25, 2005)

sjberra said:


> Is that market date, becasue both where shown at the 1999 ces


Yes. Date of release.


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## sjberra (May 16, 2005)

fasTLane said:


> Yes. Date of release.


so tivo was just faster getting it to market, both where shown at the same time


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> What do we actually get for our extra few $ a month, one might ask? Suggestions (a fuzzy logic proprietary and all-but-useless feature than typically suggests laughable offerings) and the ability to undelete, which will likely be a wishlist feature added soon to the HD DVR+. And what else? Am I forgetting something?


Reliable recording? At least once a month my mother complains about her D* DVR not recording something she wanted. Whether it's user error, or a bug in D* software - the end result is irrelevant. For all their "lack of innovation" that many love to pin on Tivo, they do one thing very, very well - record shows!

Funny, that's the reason I have a DVR. Everything else is gravy....



> Looking at this another way, aren't a lot of the clever new innovations the HD DVR+ has come up with still very useful features that Tivo never dreamed of or never even considered?


A combined "now playing" and group recording are the only things D* has that I wish Tivo would do. Other than that, the D* interface is clunky and slower than Tivo (didn't think that would be possible!)



> t's just sad for them that they basically rested on their laurels and for that sin were promptly and unceremoniously, caught and passed.


Meh - they still do the core functionality - recording programs - better and more reliably than anyone else. Even after all these years. And with the 20.2 software update (just got mine tonight!) they finally seem to be propelling the platform forward again. Yeah!



> Apple should get off of that obscenely-huge pile of cash and just buy them already for the patents and be done with it.


Not gonna happen - the concept of a DVR isn't very Apple-like. Yes, it's the best solution for now - but streaming is where it's going to be going. Look at iTunes - it's really not much of a stretch - buy what you want, when you want it, without commercials. IP TV. That's what I really want. I don't want a DVR, that's a means to an end.

The end for me is watching what I want, when I want. DVRs are an ugly intermediate step to that end.


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

Let me preface my comments by saying I have both - HR2xs AND a THR22 - and until about 6 months ago, worked for a cable company that supplied the Premiere to customers, which was my job to set them up and provide support for. I'm not looking to start a TiVo vs. D* war - others have done that far more succesfully - but merely putting in my two cents...



DocNo said:


> Reliable recording? At least once a month my mother complains about her D* DVR not recording something she wanted. *Whether it's user error, or a bug in D* software - the end result is irrelevant. * For all their "lack of innovation" that many love to pin on Tivo, they do one thing very, very well - record shows!
> 
> Funny, that's the reason I have a DVR. Everything else is gravy....


In what universe is this irrelevant??? If a user is unable to set a recording, then it makes absolutely no difference what platform is being used. In fact, the D* box is easier to set than TiVo. All you need to do is hit record with the required program highlighted and it'll record - do it twice and a season pass is set.

Just about ALL DVRs today record shows very well. I have had very few missed recordings and can honestly say that I haven't noticed more on one than the other. The difference is how they get set and how easy the software is to navigate - or just plain personal preference.



DocNo said:


> A combined "now playing" and group recording are the only things D* has that I wish Tivo would do. Other than that, the D* interface is clunky and slower than Tivo (didn't think that would be possible!)


Not sure what you mean here as the TiVo has folders, or 'Group Recording".
I think both platforms have a degree of 'clunkiness' that virtually doesn't exist in, say, the SkyPlus+ box in the UK. If I was forced to choose, I'd actually say that the TiVo interface is actually slightly slower and clunkier overall than the D*.



DocNo said:


> Meh - they still do the core functionality - recording programs - better and more reliably than anyone else. Even after all these years. And with the 20.2 software update (just got mine tonight!) they finally seem to be propelling the platform forward again. Yeah!


As I stated above, core functionality is pretty equal on ALL DVRs. Where they differ is on the non-core functions like searching, wishlists, Kidzone, streaming, MRV, etc.



DocNo said:


> Not gonna happen - the concept of a DVR isn't very Apple-like. Yes, it's the best solution for now - but streaming is where it's going to be going. Look at iTunes - it's really not much of a stretch - buy what you want, when you want it, without commercials. IP TV. That's what I really want. I don't want a DVR, that's a means to an end.
> 
> The end for me is watching what I want, when I want. DVRs are an ugly intermediate step to that end.


In your own words, IPTV is what _YOU _really want. That doesn't mean it's what everyone wants. The majority of TV watchers are quite content to watch what's on when it's shown. They are simply not interested in getting involved in the complex (to them) world of time-shifting and/or streaming.

The users on this board are still very much a minority. Advertisers like Best Buy would have us believe that the average user is far more tech-savvy than they actually are.


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## midas (Jun 1, 2000)

TonyTheTiger said:


> In what universe is this irrelevant??? If a user is unable to set a recording, then it makes absolutely no difference what platform is being used. In fact, the D* box is easier to set than TiVo. All you need to do is hit record with the required program highlighted and it'll record - do it twice and a season pass is set.


I agree that if a user is unable to set a recording the whole argument is moot. But I've been using a DVR since the first Tivo Series 1 came out. I've had D* DVRs since they went to MPEG4.

The issues I had with the HR boxes recording had to do with wishlists, or as they call it, autorecord keyword. I had a lot of issues trying to recording sporting events. Sometimes it just wouldn't record and there would be no explanation of the missed recording.

And while Game Search is a nice feature, it doesn't always work. And when it does, sometimes it honors the added recording time you've asked for, sometimes it doesn't. It would work so much better if D* just didn't try to record from channels you don't receive. Yes, Tivo is going to get burned occasionally on blackouts from missing this feature. But overall the Tivo is going to miss far fewer.


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

I would not try comparing THR22 to DTV HR DVRs as the standard for TiVo interface and functionality. DirecTiVo and Series 3 TiVos do not miss recordings. EVER. I have two DTV HR DVRs now and they do miss recordings. No reason no history no nothing just not there. 

For me it is very simple to compare. It boils down to the questions I get from my lovely wife. What is that? Why does it do that? That is stupid. 

I have to tell her that the new boxes do that. I will never know why. Some things have a workaround. Others do not. She is being extremely nice to me as she knows I really like the HD.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I have had cases where the HR21 made a recording that the HR10, with the same "season pass", missed. No explanation in the HR10 history. But in general both have been extremely reliable, absent glitches in guide data.


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