# Will HR10-250 OWNERS, OWN the HR20-250 ??



## DVRaholic (Mar 28, 2004)

I was just thinking, Directv will probably swap out us HR10-250 owners to the New HR20-250 (when released) for little or no cost. 
Does this mean we will OWN the HR20-250 .. OR .. will it be leased like all new recievers are.

I was under the impression since I paid nearly $1000 for my first HD tivo I would own the replacment also... It would Really Suck it I didnt own it !!!

Hmmm..... something to think about!!!


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

At this point... we simply don't know.

Until the HR20 is released, and all the details are announced... everything is just speculation.


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## cowboys2002 (Jun 15, 2001)

I would imagine that you could keep your unit (if it still works) and they should lease you the newer unit.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah they only way I would let them "upgrade" to a lease is if I could keep both units. Otherwise, I should own it just like I do my 10-250. 

At this point I dont' see myself giving up the 10-250, and the only way I'll get a 20-250 is if they give me a deal I can't refuse for an additional HD DVR.


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## ayrton911 (Sep 4, 2000)

I agree. I don't want to give up my 10-250. However, I guess when national HD channels go mpeg4, I may have no choice. 

If it is a free upgrade if I give away my owned 10-250, I might do it. Otherwise, I'll keep my 10-250 for MPEG 2 SD and OTA, and just buy eventually the new one (or buy the lease).


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## jonra (Apr 1, 2005)

To me, especially something that is relatively expensive - in the first place - I hate being locked into something. Linux was supposed to be an open system. I understand DirecTV has to turn on the DVR function (which is crappy since so many of us spent $800 - $1000 for it). I will probably keep my HR10-250 and buy the new series3 TIVO HDTV & use with whatever is available including cable and or off-air. If DirecTV updates to 6.2 and better; and provides a better interface than the best TIVO or TIVO with the replacement model and includes off-the -air HDTV recording - I may stay with direcTV.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

I think the answer is 

1. if you get your unit from directv, it's absolutely owned as far as i'm concerned...I say this only because of how they are treating hdtivos now but of course they can make up any rules. It would just go against every grain reported in their financials etc to sell the consumer something when they just put in the new leasing plan. 

2. a little more iffy if it's from newegg etc. Personally since they have a chance to set the rules up front with this brand new receiver, i see the dealers being forced to lease instead of our current 'respite' from having to lease if we just get the units online vs directv.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Since I haven't been paying too much attention....what's the latest estimate of when the H20 will be available??


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## ayrton911 (Sep 4, 2000)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Since I haven't been paying too much attention....what's the latest estimate of when the H20 will be available??


I've read June or July.

Personally I hope it takes longer.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

ayrton911 said:


> I've read June or July.
> 
> Personally I hope it takes longer.


So that means March....thanks!


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## trausch (Jan 8, 2004)

People have often used the car lease analogy for helping clarify these kind of issues. 

So suppose you bought a car 2 years ago. Now you want to get a new car and lease it. Any equity left in your old car will be used to pay the upfront costs of the lease and then you will simply pay the monthly leasing fee. This should answer your question. You will not own the HR20-250 just like you will not own the new car you are leasing. 

The only question is how much equity is left in your HR10-250. I, like you, probably believe my HR10-250 is worth more than the upfront cost required for leasing the new equipment. However, what am I to do? Will it have any value on ebay if direct tv refuses to activate any of the HR10-250s? If I get folders I will move the HR10-150 to one of my non high definition TVs and simply lease the HR20-250.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

If you currently own your HR10-250 (i.e., you purchased it prior to the lease plan going into effect or you bought it from a non-DTV seller) then it belongs to you. If you want to get the new HR20 then you will either pay an upfront fee and then lease it or you can turn in your HR10-250 in lieu of the upfront fee and still lease it. In either case you will not own the HR20.

Assuming the upfront fee for the HR20 will be the same as it currently stands for the HR10 and you don't care about owning a Tivo vs. a DTV DVR, then the cutoff point for keeping the HR10-250 vs. trading it in will be $499. In other words, if you paid more than $499 for the HR10-250 it would be in your best interest to keep the unit instead of trading it in. OTOH, if you paid less than $499 for the HR10-250 then you may want to consider trading it in for the HR20 as you will come out ahead.

In my case, they will have to pry my HR10-250's from my cold, dead hands before I ever turn it over to DTV for one of their POS DVRs. I currently get two different local markets in HD via OTA antenna. DTV will never allow me to sub to both markets using the H20 so there's not much incentive to make the switch to mpeg4. They'll have to add more HD national channels to their lineup before I even consider adding an HR20 to my stable of DVRs.


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## trausch (Jan 8, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> ....
> 
> In my case, they will have to pry my HR10-250's from my cold, dead hands before I ever turn it over to DTV for one of their POS DVRs.
> 
> .....


How about turning off the MPEG2 stream. Will they be able to get it out of your cold dead hands then?


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

trausch said:


> How about turning off the MPEG2 stream. Will they be able to get it out of your cold dead hands then?


As long as it can still get OTA, then probably not.

phox


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

phox_mulder said:


> As long as it can still get OTA, then probably not.
> 
> phox


Yeah, the HR10-250 will work for a long time on mpeg2 OTA stuff for me.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

rifleman69 said:


> Yeah, the HR10-250 will work for a long time on mpeg2 OTA stuff for me.


If D* switches everything to MPEG4, the HR10-250 won't be able to get the guide anymore,
and therefore it won't work on OTA.

In doomsayer mode, as the chance of that happening during my lifetime,
or even the lifetime of my HR10 is slim to none.

phox


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

phox_mulder said:


> If D* switches everything to MPEG4, the HR10-250 won't be able to get the guide anymore,
> and therefore it won't work on OTA.
> 
> In doomsayer mode, as the chance of that happening during my lifetime,
> ...


MPEG4 has nothing to do with OTA Guide Data, even the HR20-250 will support MPEG2 OTA.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Oh and seriously doubt they would ever turn off MPEG2 alltogether (for SD etc), not in this decade at least. That would require replacing almost ALL the existing boxes.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

vertigo235 said:


> MPEG4 has nothing to do with OTA Guide Data, even the HR20-250 will support MPEG2 OTA.


Doesn't the guide come via satellite?

Isn't the current satellite stream mpeg2?

Therefore, if they switch "everything" to mpeg4, the guide will follow, and therefore the HR10-250 won't be able to recieve the guide, and won't be able to schedule recordings.

Unless I'm not getting how the boxes get the guide info.

HR20-250 must be able to handle both MPEG4 and MPEG2, since only the HD locals via satellite will be in MPEG4, OTA will remain MPEG2 and everything else via satellite will stay the way it is for quite a while.

phox


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I doubt I will ever swap out my HR10. My DMA is 156 and have yet to get SD locals, much less HD. I'll stick with OTA for now (such as it is).


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

cowboys2002 said:


> I would imagine that you could keep your unit (if it still works) and they should lease you the newer unit.


Which is BIIG problem for DirecTV, as they promosed MANy users a FREE UPGRADE to the HR20.. not 'you can keep that $1000 obsolete box and buy a new one to keep using it...'


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## doug25 (Oct 4, 2005)

I paid $1000 over a year ago for the H10-250. What difference could it possibly make if I own it or its leased if I stay with D-tv. The unit recently went bad..they replaced it n/c (not even S&H). If they wish to keep customers they will always do this (or should do this) in the future. If their subscription requires an H20 I expect them to provide me with the H20(n/c) or I go elsewhere. I guess if I were to leave D-tv since I "own" the H10 I could throw it in the garbage since its not much use anywhere else. If it was leased I guess I would have to return it.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Or you could sell it on ebay for $350. Why would you throw it away? If you have to give it back, you lose the $350. 

At least take the hard drive out and use it as an extra 250 gigs in your PC before tossing it.

Even if it was only worth $10 used, you could keep it out of the landfill and donate the $10 to charity.


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## maldini (Mar 2, 2005)

When SciFi, Food TV, HGTV, Travel Channel, FX, USA, and few others channels are in HD in MPEG4 I will make the switch, but until that time I could care less about local channels in HD since I get them OTA.

Maldini


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

> If D* switches everything to MPEG4, the HR10-250 won't be able to get the guide anymore,


That does pose an interesting question. I'm not sure if the guide data would be affected by the switch to mpeg4 but I suppose it would if the mpeg2 datastream was cut off. I don't envision DTV shutting off the mpeg2 transponders until the satellites are at the end of their lifespan, but only time will tell.

DTV would have to completely shut off all communication with the existing mpeg2 hardware for the HDTivos to be rendered useless. The HDTivos should still be able to function as manual recorders without the guide data as long as they can still receive the DVR tier from the datastream to keep the Tivo features functional. Once that gets cut off it won't be of any further use. At that point I'd have to decide whether or not to stay with DTV or to move onto whatever service is offered as an alternative (Comcast Digital Cable, Verizon FIOS, or whatever).


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

phox_mulder said:


> Doesn't the guide come via satellite?
> 
> Isn't the current satellite stream mpeg2?
> 
> ...


 MPEG2 is only the encoding protocol for video content. The sat stream muxes in a separate signal into one or more active transponders that contains the EPG info. This means that it is independent of whether they are using M2 or M4, and they can maintain it for long after M2 is gone, if they wish. There is no reason they could not replicate that EPG stream on the Ka sats as well, if need be, as it is not a bandwidth hog.

The reasonable approach for DTV to take is to maintain legacy SD and HD on the existing system, beef up the new system with plenty of new HD and SD and VOD offerrings to make it more attractive than what is available under M2, sell nothing but STBs and dishes that are dual M2/M4 and Ku/Ka, set up lots of incentives for new and existing customers to go to new gear, and wait for the bulk of their customers to follow the path of least resistance and migrate to the new stuff on their own, as their existing gear fades away. As that process progresses, they can start to offer certain packages, like NFL, only on the new system to stimulate migration. Use lots of "the carrot", and a little of "the stick". Resistance is futile. Eventually everyone will be assimilated.

But that will take a long time. DISH decided to move everyone to "DISH500" some 6 or 7 years ago, and I don't think that's complete yet. I would expect 95% of HR10's to eventually fail by normal amortization before M2 goes away, and that could be 5-8 years or more down the road.

The pattern thus far in the world of PVRs is that a PVR either fails inside 3 years, or the newer boxes have so many better bells and whistles that the old boxes seem obsolete in 3 years, even if they are still working. Tivo being pretty stable and the industry maturing means that the HR10 could average much more than 3 years typical lifespan, so with luck they will just be becoming very quaint and creaky about the time DTV shuts off M2.

Your $1000 HR10 was worth about $200 the minute you drove it off the lot. It will be worth about a quarter of that in 3 or 4 years, when you hand it to one of your kids. My 3-year-old PowerBook is worth about an eighth what I originally paid for it. And its getting a little quaint and creaky, too.


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## jfischer (Oct 14, 1999)

phox_mulder said:


> Therefore, if they switch "everything" to mpeg4, the guide will follow, and therefore the HR10-250 won't be able to recieve the guide, and won't be able to schedule recordings.


MPEG2/4 are video compression algorithms, and probably have nothing to do with how the guide data are sent by satellite.

DirecTV won't be switching "everything" to MPEG4 anytime soon. That would obsolete 15 million boxes, and replacing all of those would be at considerable expense to DirecTV.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

DirecTV has publicly stated that they are not planning to convert SD programming to MPEG-4. As stated earlier in this thread, too many SD boxes at too high of cost. I would qualify their stated position by adding "for now."

That said, I agree with TyroneShoes' version of evolution from MPEG-2-only SD boxes to next-generation boxes that support -2 and -4, and probably SD and HD. The differences in cost get smaller all the time as more of the needed functions are incorporated into a single chip (or a small few).

I expect to use my two HR10-250's until something better comes along. OTA HDTV and SDTV will be MPEG-2 indefinitely, since there is no apparent pressure in the standards world to force a change to MPEG-4. After all, how many years have we had the original NTSC system, changed only by the backward-compatible addition of color.

BTW, I have been using DirecTiVo boxes for 6 years and they have not changed substantially during that time, except to activate the second satellite tuner that was always present in the box but not supported initially. IMHO, the TiVo user interface has stood the test of time. I am not saying better things could not be done, but until UI improvements are provided in a box that matches or exceeds the reliability of TiVo recording exactly what the user wants, satisfied TiVo users might not even seriously consider the other options.


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## IOTP (Aug 7, 2001)

$899 I paid for mine. I better OWN it.

Then again, when I had problems they wanted me to "lease" the replacement HR10-250.

Bastards they are sometimes I tell you.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

jfischer said:


> MPEG2/4 are video compression algorithms, and probably have nothing to do with how the guide data are sent by satellite.
> 
> DirecTV won't be switching "everything" to MPEG4 anytime soon. That would obsolete 15 million boxes, and replacing all of those would be at considerable expense to DirecTV.


I wish more people would understand this. The "impending" doom of mpeg2 shut off is most certainly only for HD channels and is down the road a few years. They need to perfect the new dvr and also dont forget, there really aren't a lot of 'cable' HD channels yet.

So I really hope people realize it's not foolish to buy a HDtivo if you want one now. Liken it to buying a computer. If you wait for the perfect one, you'll never buy!


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

IOTP said:


> $899 I paid for mine. I better OWN it.
> 
> Then again, when I had problems they wanted me to "lease" the replacement HR10-250.
> 
> Bastards they are sometimes I tell you.


See you've stumbled onto the problem we will have. Even with the 5 yr warranty by some retailers, the HDtivo will only 'be around' so long. They've stopped production. Therefore, eventually we will probably be forced to get dvrs and not hdtivos.

I'm also betting they will force lease on us at that time. Then you will have some really upset people! I dont think they should replace owned with leased but they are the bosses dont forget


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Budget_HT said:


> ...OTA HDTV and SDTV will be MPEG-2 indefinitely, since there is no apparent pressure in the standards world to force a change to MPEG-4...


There is one other potential scenario for OTA. One of the things OTA stations would like to do is to provide VOD, multiple streams, and other streaming content, to compete better with cable. It is difficult to do that with only 19.4 mb/s of bandwidth using MPEG-2. It is very possible that in the future many OTA stations will provide only one MPEG-2 stream at probably only 480x704 resolution, and they will use the rest of the bandwidth to provide probably 2 HD streams at full resolution and under MPEG-4 or MPEG2000 or some even better scheme not yet developed, with room for other streaming content or possibly quasi-VOD.

The current business model of broadcast TV, which is that the viewer must plop themselves down in front of the screen when we say so if they want to view a particular program, and they must stay there and watch our commercials, is a dinosaur, and is becoming slowly extinct. When and whether they move to a new model all depends upon how much revenue would be out there waiting for that, but the tide is slowly and inevitably turning in that direction.

The single low-rez stream fulfills all FCC requirements of broadcasting digital television, and if the other uses for the bandwidth turn out to be more lucrative than conventional MPEG-2 DT, stations will migrate to these enhanced services, which would be at first targeted to high-dollar viewers who can afford the ancillary equipment. So, ironically enough, DT could become a low-rez service targeted to low income viewers, while broadcasters concentrate on other revenue streams by using a part of that very bandwidth that was originally supposed to be to provide free TV for everyone. And real HD may then become strictly a pay-for-play service.

The first real example of such an implementation is MovieBeam, which uses the unused bandwith in local PBS-DT.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

Interesting thoughts. Are the broadcasters legally allowed to use the airwaves you and I pay for to provide programming I cannot receive on a "standard" receiver, meaning in 2009 a DTV receiver supporting SD and HD DTV reception? On one hand, I don't personally care to subsidize pay TV provided by OTA broadcasters. On the other hand, I realize that they are having difficulty getting enough revenue to provide what I do want to see.

Our local PBS stations here use every scrap of DTV bandwidth to broadcast 1 HD + 2 SD (usually evenings) or 3-5 SD with no HD (during the day).


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## Duke (May 6, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> ....and you don't care about owning a Tivo vs. a DTV DVR,


Therein lies the rub....


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Budget_HT said:


> Interesting thoughts. Are the broadcasters legally allowed to use the airwaves you and I pay for to provide programming I cannot receive on a "standard" receiver, meaning in 2009 a DTV receiver supporting SD and HD DTV reception? On one hand, I don't personally care to subsidize pay TV provided by OTA broadcasters. On the other hand, I realize that they are having difficulty getting enough revenue to provide what I do want to see.
> 
> Our local PBS stations here use every scrap of DTV bandwidth to broadcast 1 HD + 2 SD (usually evenings) or 3-5 SD with no HD (during the day).


Their only requirement is to provide "digital television". That means that if they use 3 mb/s to do that, they are covered, and they can use the rest for whatever they want.

And do we "pay for" the airwaves? I don't think any of us have ever actually paid for the airwaves, or for content that comes over a FCC-licensed frequency, until the recent move to ancillary services like MovieBeam. The closest thing to that is that TV stations were never charged a fee for using those frequencies, and they are being moved to new frequencies (many of who will actually move back after analog cutoff) and the bandwidth now has value, simply because there are a lot of new services that are willing to pay the government for bandwidth.

The ONLY ones really paying are the stations, who get to keep their frequencies by broadcasting digital TV for ten years with absolutely no ROI. The power bill alone is about 30 grand a month to keep a TV station on the air, and that doesn't include the average 10 million dollar investment each digital broadcaster has had to make, again with absolutely no ROI. That's some protection racket. The FCC has nothing on Tony Soprano. The stations are also currently being forced to give up some of their translator, microwave, and news ENG bandwidth.

And if MovieBeam launches in your location, your local PBS station will be squeezing whatever subchannels they are broadcasting even more, just to make room. There is also a new service that will provide a package of 30 OTA digital channels similar to basic cable that is expected to launch in many markets. Where do you suppose they are going to get the digital bandwidth to do that? From the local DT broadcasters, who they will lease parts of the "unused" 19.4 mb from.


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