# Tivo, what are you doing, No HDMI-CEC?????



## Nightpoison (Aug 20, 2013)

Tivo,

This is a letter to know what is going on. Your new devices you just announced are great! Offering up to 3TB of storage, up to 6 tuners, updated software, better internals, wifi built-in, and an updated design. At the end of the day I have to ask, what were you thinking not including HDMI-CEC support? Sure leave it off the base model, toss around the idea for the Plus, but it has to be apart of your Pro line. After all its a Pro level feature right. So why did you leave it off? Some of us use and want this functionality, functionality that is available in much cheaper and inferior product. So can you explain why you left it out?

I would really like to know as I'm debating about picking up the new X1 box from Comcast and moving on from Tivo. I've had four Tivo units now. My first one was in 2003 and have had seen your company grow. Each new model you release you leave something off. Something that should be current generation. Leaving us always wanting. 

I am being honest, could you please let us know why you decided to make this poor decision? We would all very much like to know. 

respectfully a long time customer, 
Michael


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## ilovedvrs (Oct 21, 2004)

what is HDMI-CEC ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#CEC


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

"CEC wiring is mandatory, although implementation of CEC in a product is optional."

They could add it later. But I'm assuming it's because they want you using their experience entirely - rather than say trying to run it through the new Xbox One.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

b_scott said:


> "CEC wiring is mandatory, although implementation of CEC in a product is optional."
> 
> They could add it later. But I'm assuming it's because they want you using their experience entirely - rather than say trying to run it through the new Xbox One.


but it's useful in so many other scenarios. I want the TV to switch to TiVo's input automatically when I want to watch TiVo. If Google can include this in a $35 Chromecast, TiVo should be able to include it in a box that costs more than 10x that.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

how would it switch to Tivo's input automatically....... is it a mind reader? lol 

You have to hit a button to switch it, so I'm not sure I understand. Though I have a Harmony One remote.


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## andyw715 (Jul 31, 2007)

Fofer said:


> but it's useful in so many other scenarios. I want the TV to switch to TiVo's input automatically when I want to watch TiVo. If Google can include this in a $35 Chromecast, TiVo should be able to include it in a box that cost more than 10x that.


True, they don't have to implement all the CEC commands....


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## ilovedvrs (Oct 21, 2004)

Chromecast rocks, it feels like magic when you send it a request and it changes your input.
I go from watching my Tivo on input 1, to a youtube video on input instantly.
I got 3x Chromecast devices.


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## mwecksell (Jan 20, 2005)

Pressing the TiVo button should trigger the request to change inputs to the TiVo.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

b_scott said:


> how would it switch to Tivo's input automatically....... is it a mind reader? lol
> 
> You have to hit a button to switch it, so I'm not sure I understand. Though I have a Harmony One remote.


But you could have the TiVo tell the TV (or AV reciever) to switch to it's input if you press the 'TiVo' button on the TiVo remote. (Edit: What mweksell said)

That would save you from having to program a universal remote with the input switch command. Being able to switch back to TiVo using only the peanut remote could be occasionally useful to me.

Also it _could_, if TiVo implemented the appropriate transport commands, play and pause your TiVo shows using the (non-universal) TV or AV receiver remote because they'd relay the command over HDMI. (Personally I wouldn't bother with that because I prefer the TiVo remote.)

Or for people who like using standby on their TiVos HDMI CEC could tell the TiVo when the TV was turned on and off; so the TiVo could automatically go into standby when the TV was turned off and wake up when it was turned back on. (Or wait until a TiVo button was pressed to wake up; but certainly auto-standby when TV turned off would be helpful to those people)


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Jonathan_S said:


> But you could have the TiVo tell the TV (or AV reciever) to switch to it's input if you press the 'TiVo' button on the TiVo remote. (Edit: What mweksell said)


You need a receiver or TV that uses CEC though. Mine's 5 years old, and I don't think it does.


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## Philmatic (Sep 17, 2003)

TiVo doesn't WANT you to switch inputs, one box, remember?


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Philmatic said:


> TiVo doesn't WANT you to switch inputs, one box, remember?


right. what are the other inputs for? you don't need them! pishaw.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Philmatic said:


> TiVo doesn't WANT you to switch inputs, one box, remember?


But HDMI-CEC would make it easier to switch *to* TiVo as well. Putting their head in the sand (again) and leaving out obvious innovation that other devices include, just makes them look stupid (again.)


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Fofer said:


> But HDMI-CEC would make it easier to switch *to* TiVo as well. Putting their head in the sand (again) and leaving out obvious innovation that other devices include, just makes them look stupid (again.)


I understand your point, but I'd be happier if Tivo would finish "baking" its existing products rather than adding shiny new features that never get fully supported.

I'm *still* waiting for my Tivo S3 to support two tunes with a single M-Card. 
Nevermind that full HD UI that's more than 3 years overdue!


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

bmgoodman said:


> I understand your point, but I'd be happier if Tivo would finish "baking" its existing products rather than adding shiny new features that never get fully supported.
> 
> I'm *still* waiting for my Tivo S3 to support two tunes with a single M-Card.
> Nevermind that full HD UI that's more than 3 years overdue!


All you need to experience is the HDMI-CEC on a $35 Chromecast to see that it's not hocus pocus. It's a simple spec that any new device should incorporate. Power on, switch input. That's all we're asking.

As far as your S3 goes, you really need to *stop* waiting for any new improvements or support for that box. They are not in the works. The S3 line died (in the eyes of TiVo) long ago. There have been so many signs of this, it's patently obvious. Sorry. Let it go.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Fofer said:


> All you need to experience is the HDMI-CEC on a $35 Chromecast to see that it's not hocus pocus. It's a simple spec that any new device should incorporate. Power on, switch input. That's all we're asking.
> 
> As far as your S3 goes, you really need to *stop* waiting for any new improvements or support for that box. They are not in the works. The S3 line died (in the eyes of TiVo) long ago. There have been so many signs of this, it's patently obvious. Sorry. Let it go.


And the same goes for OTA - Let it go!


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Fofer said:


> All you need to experience is the HDMI-CEC on a $35 Chromecast to see that it's not hocus pocus. It's a simple spec that any new device should incorporate. Power on, switch input. That's all we're asking.
> 
> As far as your S3 goes, you really need to *stop* waiting for any new improvements or support for that box. They are not in the works. The S3 line died (in the eyes of TiVo) long ago. There have been so many signs of this, it's patently obvious. Sorry. Let it go.


I guess I was too subtle in my statement of "still waiting". I didn't mean that waiting=expecting. Rather, I meant that it never happened. I "let it go" years ago, though I'm still paying an extra $8.50 per month to Comcast for the second M-card required for the second tuner.

As for your desire for HDMI-CEC, I'm sure it will be included in the Series 6. Or perhaps 7. Tivo is one company whose "cutting edge" often gets released with aspects that are behind the times.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The S3 was built to a draft specification of the M-Card standard. A last minute change to the standard made it impossible for the hardware itself to support a single M-Card. That's why we never got that, it wasn't a software limitation.

As mentioned above CEC could still be added via software, so we may eventually see this. However, as we all know, TiVo is a bit slower then other companies when it comes to software updates so it could be a while.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Yet another thing (along with Amazon Prime Streaming) that my $35 RasPi running XBMC/OpenElec can do that my TiVo can't. 

Still, probably won't deter me from getting one.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

b_scott said:


> You need a receiver or TV that uses CEC though. Mine's 5 years old, and I don't think it does.


True, but my TV and receiver happen to both be new enough to support it.

I'm currently using it for keeping the receiver slaved to the TV's power state - turn the TV on and the receiver notices and turns itself on as well; turn the TV off and the receiver automatically turns off. I could do that with a universal remote; but this way is more reliable (they can't end up out of sync from a missed IR command) and even works if I use the TV's physical power button.

So if TiVo did output CEC codes to alert the receiver to switch inputs that could save me having go pick up the remote receiver to get back to the TiVo input if I'd had it on game or blu-ray. (and forgotten to switch back when I was done)

That said, it's hardly a big deal for me - it'd just be a nice add if they did implement this.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

zalusky said:


> And the same goes for OTA - Let it go!


Who are you responding to here? Who's "holding out" for OTA?

My 2-tuner Premiere as well as the base Roamio support HD antenna (OTA) input. So support for that isn't nearly as dead as the S3 line is. I'm not really sure what you're getting at.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> True, but my TV and receiver happen to both be new enough to support it.
> 
> I'm currently using it for keeping the receiver slaved to the TV's power state - turn the TV on and the receiver notices and turns itself on as well; turn the TV off and the receiver automatically turns off. I could do that with a universal remote; but this way is more reliable (they can't end up out of sync from a missed IR command) and even works if I use the TV's physical power button.
> 
> ...


What happens if the TV is off and you want to listen to some music? Or you switch from watching TV to music?

I still ike using my Unievrsal harmony remote. Since for most devices I can point it in any direct(even at the floor behind the couch) and the devices will respond to it.

Hopefully the TiVo Roamios continue the great IR reception that the S3 and S4 boxes had.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I tried using CEC on my TV and receiver and it was sort of weird. I don't know if one is not up to spec, but sometimes the TV and receiver would get out of sync so while the TV said the volume was at 45 the receiver would say 20. I'd have to turn it all the way down to the minimum to get them back in sync. It was also sort of laggy. I ended up turning it off.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I tried using CEC on my TV and receiver and it was sort of weird. I don't know if one is not up to spec, but sometimes the TV and receiver would get out of sync so while the TV said the volume was at 45 the receiver would say 20. I'd have to turn it all the way down to the minimum to get them back in sync. It was also sort of laggy. I ended up turning it off.


Glitchy and laggy, sounds perfect for Tivo.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

scandia101 said:


> Glitchy and laggy, sounds perfect for Tivo.


LOL


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Wait, you actually ever have your TV on anything BUT the Tivo input?

(OK, that's actually a joke, since I'm being a hypocrite. I *do* switch my TV's inputs to go to my PS3 -- occasionally.. and mostly I leave it on the input for my Toshiba XS32 -- and use *its* input switcher to change between my two tivos.. It's much faster than switching HDMI, plus I record a decent amount TO the XS32 to watch faster-than-realtime.)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I bought a Smart TV specifically to avoid having to switch inputs and turn on another device. If TiVo adds all the same apps it has then I'll never even have to switch to the Smart TV UI.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> The S3 was built to a draft specification of the M-Card standard. A last minute change to the standard made it impossible for the hardware itself to support a single M-Card. That's why we never got that, it wasn't a software limitation.


TivoPony stated a long time ago that it wasn't a hardware limitation. They just considered the customer base too small and the risk involved to high to devote development resources to it.

Post #15: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=402682


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> What happens if the TV is off and you want to listen to some music? Or you switch from watching TV to music?
> 
> I still ike using my Unievrsal harmony remote. Since for most devices I can point it in any direct(even at the floor behind the couch) and the devices will respond to it.
> 
> Hopefully the TiVo Roamios continue the great IR reception that the S3 and S4 boxes had.


I've got it set where the AV receiver monitor's the TV, not the other way around.

So if the TV's off and I want to listen to music I turn the receiver on and switch to the approriate input; the TV remains off.

Also, if for some reason I wanted to use only the TV's speakers I could turn off the receiver and the TV would remain on.

Now, if the TV was on and I want to turn it off _and_ listen to music then receiver would shut off and I'd have to turn it back on before switching inputs. If switching directly from TV to music was a very frequent usage pattern of mine it might get annoying; but over 90% of the time if I'm turning on the receiver it's because I'm using the TV (whether for TiVo, games, or Blu rays)

(Of course how I used CEC was configurable, and it's use at all was optional. If I had a univeral remote that I was confortable with I'd just disabled CEC and it'd act like any other 'dumb' set of components. But as it is my blu ray player (PS3) doesn't work by default with universal remotes, that would limit it's usefulness - so I just use the TiVo slide remote most of the time and the receiver remote if I need to swap inputs. People with more components, or differnt usage patterns would likely want a different setup; but mine works well for me)


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

cram501 said:


> TivoPony stated a long time ago that it wasn't a hardware limitation. They just considered the customer base too small and the risk involved to high to devote development resources to it.
> 
> Post #15: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=402682


OK that sounds to me like they might have to update the PROM in the field. They have never done that, even at the behest of their own security, because it's such a risky deployment. If it fails then the whole box is bricked. Their typical double partition fail safe would not work for a PROM update. So while it could technically be fixed via "software" it wasn't really a viable option.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

From the discussion back then (and I haven't gone through the thread again and it's been a few years), it just sounded like a pita to update the software for that specific hardware and so it wasn't worth the effort. It didn't sound to me like it was a prom update although they never indicated what the change would be. It was just that it introduced risk that, in their view, offered very little benefit for a device that had been discontinued. I have no idea if those drivers are in the prom or on disk OS but it would seem to me to be pretty limiting to put it in the prom.

As an owner of an S3, I would have liked it to have been added. It was never a big deal and it was just one of those features that had floated out there for a while but never got implemented. In Tivos defense, they had never stated that the multi-stream cards would be added to the original S3.


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## jadziedzic (Apr 20, 2009)

bmgoodman said:


> I'm still paying an extra $8.50 per month to Comcast for the second M-card required for the second tuner.


The cost for the second CableCARD for a device in Comcast land *should* be something like $1.50; you should be able to get a retroactive credit for that billing mistake.


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

bmgoodman said:


> I "let it go" years ago, though I'm still paying an extra $8.50 per month to Comcast for the second M-card required for the second tuner.


Wow. How many years have you held on? S3 owners (like me, who paid *$800* for that box) got screwed with that. TiVo dropped the ball on this one, which forced affected, early-adopter customers to pay more $ per month, and that just sucks.

I'm pretty sure my TWC fee was $2.50 for the same. Even only in principle, it pissed me off.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I had two S3 units with 2 CCs each in service until last summer. I think Charter charges $2-$3/each


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## SnakeEyes (Dec 26, 2000)

I still want a Pony


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

He quit a few years ago.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I had two S3 units with 2 CCs each in service until last summer. I think Charter charges $2-$3/each


I still have 2 S-cards in a Tivo-HD. Comcast is paying me $2.50 per card for them.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I had two S3 units with 2 CCs each in service until last summer. I think Charter charges $2-$3/each





CrispyCritter said:


> I still have 2 S-cards in a Tivo-HD. Comcast is paying me $2.50 per card for them.


I have two working S3s, each with two M-cards in them. Comcast Houston no longer has S cards, so I have two Ms in each. And for some reason, not only do they not charge me, I get a credit each month of $2.50 for each cc. I actually have six cable cards on my account, so I get this huge credit (of course, that's against my $200 Comcast overall bill). I've never understood why, and am afraid to ask for fear it's a mistake


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

And I'm thinking Comcast probably charges a higher amount if you rent their own cable box, so in a sense, they're "paying you even more" for bringing your own (TiVo) box.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

cram501 said:


> TivoPony stated a long time ago that it wasn't a hardware limitation. They just considered the customer base too small and the risk involved to high to devote development resources to it.
> 
> Post #15: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=402682


This horse is not only dead, it's already turned to dust.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

jadziedzic said:


> The cost for the second CableCARD for a device in Comcast land *should* be something like $1.50; you should be able to get a retroactive credit for that billing mistake.


I argued this with Comcast until I was blue in the face, escalated, e-mailed, to no avail.

They charge $9.95 for each "additional outlet", which is *supposedly* each cable card. I *know* what their site says about second card in same device, but I can't get it billed that way. Worse, I took one of the "free" digital adapters when they turned off analog in my area, and after 1 year, three things have happened:

(1) The digital adapter is now $1.99, but it now counts as my FIRST OUTLET, 
(2) my S3's 2 cable cards and my HD's 1 cable card are now 3*$9.95. I do get back $2.50 x 3. 
(3) And most insulting is that up until Feb 2013, Comcast called my "additional outlets" as "HD Digital Starter" outlets, meaning HD was *included*. After February, they dropped "HD Digital Starter" and added a $9.95 "HD Technology Fee" on top.

I managed to get them to waive the "HD Technology Fee" for 12 months for "my trouble".

Here's what stopped me from dropping Comcast on the spot:
(1) No FiOS available in my city
(2) Verizon DSL speeds of 1 Mbps in my neighborhood
(3) My local office had originally set up my 3 cable cards as "no charge" items, so I didn't pay anything extra for them for about 4 years, until corporate "caught their billing error".

But I'm looking to get a Roamio Pro and a Mini which should save me nearly $25/month.

Frankly, it's time these "additional outlet" charges were outlawed, like they were finally outlawed in the Analog days. (Well, at least it is my recollection of what happened.)

**My apologies for going so far afield on this topic, which really doesn't fit in this thread. But now that I've written my thesis, I'm reluctant to remove it!


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## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

No apologies necessary, bgoodman. I certainly understand your frustration! That sounds criminal of Comcast to screw you over like that. If it were me and Comcast was my only option, I'd be tempted to move.


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