# Tivo improvements for SP



## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

is there anyone else who thinks that Season Passes could be easier to manage? I finally made the switch to an HD tv and now i face the daunting task of redoing all my SPs to use the HD channel rather than the standard one. Do these new boxes handle it any differently? (I have the older TIVO HD model). 

come to think of it, tivo should open an API and allow anyone to develop "tivo apps" to add new functionality.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

The easiest way to do it is to update them online at Tivo.com. Searching on the web and setting the season passes is much faster than doing it from the Tivo. After you have added all the HD versions in, it is relatively trivial reorder them and delete the old ones with the online SPM.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Not to rain on your parade, but I'm not optimistic about *anything* good coming from Tivo anymore. Everything I see lately is (A) outside core DVR functionality, (B) half-ass, or (C) both of the above.

We're still waiting on the DirecTV Tivo and the full HD menus for the Premiere. What about the Comcast Tivo? I've given up all hope on automatic soft padding or clear QAM tuning. I still can't do a picture slide show with background music. Nor can I do a search for "4-star movies".

So WTH has Tivo been doing with all the money they've hemorrhaged over the past few years? Are they too busy adding Netflix, Rhapsody, and other craplets? Or is it all being spent on lawyers in the Dish suit?

I just read this week that the Premiere *still* doesn't let you see the channels in a window on the Channel Setup screen? Seriously, I have to manually write down a list of channels that Tivo "thinks" I get that I really don't, then go into the setup and manually remove them? A PIP window could have been added YEARS ago for that.

Yes, I still use Tivo. I still prefer Tivo to other DVRs. Nonetheless, I'm disappointed they seem to tread water while others catch up.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

Adding and removing channels should have been able to be done from the channel banner. This way you could scroll through the channels and see if you get the channel while listening to see if they are speaking english, then add it to the list if you want it.

Robb


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

That would work. A better solution, however, would be a more detailed description of each channel in the "Channels you Receive" list.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I have always said TiVo needs more options for creating season passes especially after seeing the options on Media Center. Give me a combination of both TiVo and Media Center options and I would be happy.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

bmgoodman said:


> Not to rain on your parade, but I'm not optimistic about *anything* good coming from Tivo anymore. Everything I see lately is (A) outside core DVR functionality, (B) half-ass, or (C) both of the above.
> 
> We're still waiting on the DirecTV Tivo and the full HD menus for the Premiere. What about the Comcast Tivo? I've given up all hope on automatic soft padding or clear QAM tuning. I still can't do a picture slide show with background music. Nor can I do a search for "4-star movies".
> 
> ...


The Comcast Tivo doesn't manage SP's any better.....actually I suppose it's worse because there is no online management.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bmgoodman said:


> So WTH has Tivo been doing with all the money they've hemorrhaged over the past few years? Are they too busy adding Netflix, Rhapsody, and other craplets? Or is it all being spent on lawyers in the Dish suit?
> 
> I just read this week that the Premiere *still* doesn't let you see the channels in a window on the Channel Setup screen? Seriously, I have to manually write down a list of channels that Tivo "thinks" I get that I really don't, then go into the setup and manually remove them? A PIP window could have been added YEARS ago for that.
> 
> Yes, I still use Tivo. I still prefer Tivo to other DVRs. Nonetheless, I'm disappointed they seem to tread water while others catch up.


Netflix on the Tivo is the only streaming I have to my TV.. so I definitely think that one is reasonable (though I realize its UI has lagged behind others -- and eventually I will have a PS3).. and admittedly I don't use the streaming MUCH.

There's a workaround for your channels I receive situation that has worked since S1. When in channels I receive, hit live TV.. go to the channel you care about, then LEFT back to the channels I receive list. Left will always take you back to the last menu you were in. It's very handy.

I do think it's funny that even you say Tivo is better than the others. It's really bizarre that nobody has even CAUGHT UP with a 10 year old product.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

mattack said:


> Netflix on the Tivo is the only streaming I have to my TV.. so I definitely think that one is reasonable (though I realize its UI has lagged behind others -- and eventually I will have a PS3).. and admittedly I don't use the streaming MUCH.
> 
> There's a workaround for your channels I receive situation that has worked since S1. When in channels I receive, hit live TV.. go to the channel you care about, then LEFT back to the channels I receive list. Left will always take you back to the last menu you were in. It's very handy.
> 
> I do think it's funny that even you say Tivo is better than the others. It's really bizarre that nobody has even CAUGHT UP with a 10 year old product.


Good tip. Thanks.

Robb


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

socrplyr said:


> The easiest way to do it is to update them online at Tivo.com. Searching on the web and setting the season passes is much faster than doing it from the Tivo. After you have added all the HD versions in, it is relatively trivial reorder them and delete the old ones with the online SPM.


yes. that is easier, but it sure would be nice to be able to see an "advanced options" page where i could do things like set a preferred channel for recording or maybe a default setting that says "record in HD, if offered". There are all sorts of options that would make my tv life easier - How about a season no. or year setting? most programs' info includes the year it was made (2010). wouldn't it be nice to create a SP that allows me to "record all Seinfield episodes between 1993 and 1996"? i wouldn't even expect to do it from my peanut; online would be cool. Just gimme a big a** sheet w/ lots of options to manipulate before i hit the "submit" button. i hate interfaces that force me to bloop bloop through screen after screen of related selections.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

lighthouse58 said:


> ...or maybe a default setting that says "record in HD, if offered"...


TiVo corp. has no way of knowing what channels offer HD or not. To schedule a Season Pass, the only givens are the Show, and what channels the show is airing on. Yes, TiVo corp. knows what _shows_ are offered in HD, but they have no way of associating _channels_ that support HD. I don't see that problem being easily overcome...


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

orangeboy said:


> TiVo corp. has no way of knowing what channels offer HD or not. To schedule a Season Pass, the only givens are the Show, and what channels the show is airing on. Yes, TiVo corp. knows what _shows_ are offered in HD, but they have no way of associating _channels_ that support HD. I don't see that problem being easily overcome...


that's not strictly true. there are HD channels in the cable lineup. not hard to put 2 and 2 together and say "program A is showing the same episode on CBS and CBSHD, let's record the one on CBSHD". Come to think of it, Tivo DOES know which shows are in HD b/c it creates a folder in my "now playing" list that says "HD recordings".


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

You can also just remove the SD versions of the channels from channels I receive. The Web site is a good suggestion as well. Not only does it let you manage your season passes you can migrate them between multiple Tivo's. I find that a great feature.

I'm looking forward to similar functionality from the new iPad app when it comes out.


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## Grey Griffin (May 24, 2007)

> that's not strictly true. there are HD channels in the cable lineup. not hard to put 2 and 2 together and say "program A is showing the same episode on CBS and CBSHD, let's record the one on CBSHD".


This assumes your cable company marks the channels as HD. My company marks many of the HD channels with "DT" indicating they are on the digital and not analog feed. If we're using HD as the indicator then there are a load of channels Tivo would miss.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

lighthouse58 said:


> that's not strictly true. there are HD channels in the cable lineup. not hard to put 2 and 2 together and say "program A is showing the same episode on CBS and CBSHD, let's record the one on CBSHD". Come to think of it, Tivo DOES know which shows are in HD b/c it creates a folder in my "now playing" list that says "HD recordings".


And how would the TiVo select the HD channels in my lineup?:

```
TiVo name	Channel number	Channel name
TivoS3		2-1		WESHDT (Ant)
TivoS3		2-2		WESHDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		6-1		WKMGDT (Ant)
TivoS3		6-2		WKMGDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		9-1		WFTVDT (Ant)
TivoS3		9-2		WFTVDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		15-1		WDSCDT (Ant)
TivoS3		15-2		WDSCDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		15-3		WDSCDT3 (Ant)
TivoS3		18-1		WKCFDT (Ant)
TivoS3		18-2		WKCFDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		18-3		WKCFDT3 (Ant)
TivoS3		24-1		WMFEDT (Ant)
TivoS3		24-2		WMFEDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		24-3		WMFEDT3 (Ant)
TivoS3		24-4		WMFEDT4 (Ant)
TivoS3		26-1		WVENDT (Ant)
TivoS3		26-2		WVENDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		27-1		WRDQDT (Ant)
TivoS3		27-2		WRDQDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		35-1		WOFLDT (Ant)
TivoS3		38-1		WHDOLD (Ant)
TivoS3		40-1		WACXDT (Ant)
TivoS3		40-2		WACXDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		40-3		WACXDT3 (Ant)
TivoS3		43-1		WOTFDT (Ant)
TivoS3		45-1		WTGLDT (Ant)
TivoS3		45-2		WTGLDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		45-3		WTGLDT3 (Ant)
TivoS3		52-1		WHLVDT (Ant)
TivoS3		56-1		WOPXDT (Ant)
TivoS3		56-2		WOPXDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		56-3		WOPXDT3 (Ant)
TivoS3		65-1		WRBWDT (Ant)
TivoS3		68-1		WBCCDT (Ant)
TivoS3		68-2		WBCCDT2 (Ant)
TivoS3		68-3		WBCCDT3 (Ant)
TivoS3		68-4		WBCCDT4 (Ant)
```
You're going to have to trust me that TiVo uses identifiers like this to associate channel, show and episode when scheduling a recording:
tivo:st.4208842 (channel)
tivo:cl.167262 (show)
tivo:ct.382150 (episode)


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

orangeboy said:


> And how would the TiVo select the HD channels in my lineup?:
> 
> ```
> TiVo name	Channel number	Channel name
> ...


I don't know about your lineup, but on my cable lineup, everything above channel 500 seems to be HD. Since there are only a handful of companies that deliver most of the cable/sat services around the country, it doesn't seem to be an insurmountable problem. I'm not saying it's necessarily trivial, but it's no moonshot either. PAYING customers expect incremental improvements rather than a static service. I use free open source services that improve on a regular basis. Why can't Tivo do that?

If they can't, why don't they create an API to let 3rd party developers do it for us? They could even open a Tivo App Store and charge money for the addons. if they add the features i want i'd be willing to pay.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

ferrumpneuma said:


> TiVo doesn't need 3rd party developers. Software is their core competence.:up::up::up:


Funny stuff.

Robb


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mattack said:


> There's a workaround for your channels I receive situation that has worked since S1. When in channels I receive, hit live TV.. go to the channel you care about, then LEFT back to the channels I receive list. Left will always take you back to the last menu you were in. It's very handy.


Yes, but unfortunately in the case of the channel lineup, it goes back to the top of the menu, not back where you were before in the list. (Actually, I don't think I have checked this since 11.0h rolled out. Maybe it has changed?)
For a while my CATV provider (TW CAble San Antonio) was adding and / or deleting about a half dozen channels a day. Talk about annoying!!



mattack said:


> I do think it's funny that even you say Tivo is better than the others. It's really bizarre that nobody has even CAUGHT UP with a 10 year old product.


No one has caught up with the Japanese Katana, and it is some 3000 years old or so. We're not doing so well compared to the Parthenon or the architecture in the Egyptian Valley of the Kings, either.

In the case of the TiVo, though, it's not really ten years old. The improvements to the TiVo have lacked glitz and glamor - why anyone cares is beyond me - and has been slow and steady, rather than stuttering and explosive. Personally, I'll take slow and steady over stuttering and explosive any day, but the point is many people fail to realize just how much the Tivo has changed in ten years. Like watching a child grow, one simply doesn't really notice the changes from week to week, or even month to month.

The Tivo was a terific product whjen it was first introduced, but both the hardware and software of the original S1 TiVo are a far cry from the current hardare and software. Think of a high end 2000 year model vechile, say a Corvette or a Mustang. To be sure, the 2010 models have features not available on the 2000 year model, but the basic functionality is identical. The 2010 year model TiVo, OTOH, has a great deal more in the way not only of extra features but even in its core functionality. A short list of features not available on the first gen 2000 model TiVo:

Dual tuners
Wishlists
Built-in Ethernet port
HD capability
CableCards
200+ hours recording time
MRV / TTG / TTCB
Compound filters with "and" and "not" expressions
HMO
HME
Drive expansion
Keyboard support
MPEG4 / h.264


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

I voted no only because Tivo will find a way to screw it up.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lighthouse58 said:


> that's not strictly true. there are HD channels in the cable lineup. not hard to put 2 and 2 together and say "program A is showing the same episode on CBS and CBSHD, let's record the one on CBSHD". Come to think of it, Tivo DOES know which shows are in HD b/c it creates a folder in my "now playing" list that says "HD recordings".


Just because a channel is capable of delivering HD doesn't mean the content will be. TCM, for example, frequently broadcasts content in letterbox format, rather than native HD. Starz recently broadcast Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring with both letterbox and pillarbox bars. Interestingly, the latest broadcasts of the film on Starz - less than a week later - were full HD.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention - the HD Content folder places the shows in that folder based upon information in the content itself, not based upon any information received prior to reception of the program. *OF COURSE* the TiVo knows what sort of information is in the content it has already recorded. Figuring it out beforehand requires good information from Tribune Media.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lighthouse58 said:


> PAYING customers expect incremental improvements rather than a static service. I use free open source services that improve on a regular basis. Why can't Tivo do that?


See my post above, and dust off your memory cells.



lighthouse58 said:


> If they can't, why don't they create an API to let 3rd party developers do it for us? They could even open a Tivo App Store and charge money for the addons. if they add the features i want i'd be willing to pay.


I suspect if they did, CableLabs would yank their CableLabs certification in a heartbeat. The CATV inductry is already grinding their teeth that they and they alone cannot provide all the software on every attached device. They would have a coronary at the thought of third party apps on CATV receivers.


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> See my post above, and dust off your memory cells.


Wow. The point is that at least i'd have a better chance of getting the HD version if it recorded off channel xxxHD rather than channel xxx. if channel xxxHD occasionally shows SD content that's on them, not on Tivo. AND... it makes my life easier.



lrhorer said:


> I suspect if they did, CableLabs would yank their CableLabs certification in a heartbeat. The CATV inductry is already grinding their teeth that they and they alone cannot provide all the software on every attached device. They would have a coronary at the thought of third party apps on CATV receivers.


Really? I am a C O N S U M E R. Do you really think that I or most Tivo users give a flying [email protected] about cablelabs? Do you really think that when people post a WISHLIST, they stop and think, "gee, how will this affect legal agreements b/w the various corporate entities?" This forum is one way in which we CONSUMERS can let the mfrs' know what we want. Give it to us and we'll give you money for it. if Tivo won't do it, then maybe someone will make something like myth or xbmc do it. and guess what? myth and xbmc aren't beholden to cablelabs. that puts pressure on cablelabs to make accommodations to Tivo.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

I recently had to do some work on SPs on S2DT due to Comcast's digital migration. I wish there was an option to update the channel # in SPs, just say instead of 64, grab this SP off of 354. Instead I had to go Search for the programs all over again, some of which would not be coming up in the next two weeks so I'll have to either setup ARWs or come back and search again later. Then raise them back up to # XX on the SP list and delete the old SP. The "Please Wait"s also got to be just a bit annoying. Speaking of ARWs it was nice having the ones that I do, as they do not require an SP update. 

I did take pictures of the SP list on the TV and used them while conducting my program searches. Those came in rather handy.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

You can on the Premiere now in the HD UI. It still has to be in the guide data though so it can list the channel options.


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## JaneiR36 (Oct 18, 2007)

Cool! I got the $470 lifetime + box promo and I'm really convinced it's a great product, but the S2DT is still pretty awesome. I record so many shows on OTA channels and my fav networks (TNT USA Lifetime etc) repeat their new episodes at least once or twice per week, I'm just using the S2 some more till it becomes inadequate or I become super rich


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lighthouse58 said:


> Wow. The point is that at least i'd have a better chance of getting the HD version if it recorded off channel xxxHD rather than channel xxx. if channel xxxHD occasionally shows SD content that's on them, not on Tivo. AND... it makes my life easier.


This is transitional. Eventually virtually every channel will be HD. Until then, the TiVo has to rely on Tribune to get it right. If you are talking about channels that are broadcast in both HD and SD, then the solution is trivial: eliminate the SD channel from the list of channels you receive and the TiVo will never record from it. The only time this is even an issue is if XXX broadcasts the selection and YYYHD also broadcasts it. That's fairly rare.



lighthouse58 said:


> Really? I am a C O N S U M E R. Do you really think that I or most Tivo users give a flying [email protected] about cablelabs?


It is not my problem, nor is it TiVo's that people are too lazy to stop and think before forming or expressing their desires. Asking for something only an idiot would consider providing is not the mark of a wise consumer, his internal desires notwithstanding. Consumer or not, it is childish and egocentric to criticize TiVo for not doing something which would be tantamount to financial suicide.



lighthouse58 said:


> Do you really think that when people post a WISHLIST, they stop and think, "gee, how will this affect legal agreements b/w the various corporate entities?"


Which is why they are being screwed. If consumers considered such things, they would not buy the crap which fosters such inequities. If everyone stopped going to the theaters to watch movies, CableLabs would change their tune in a heartbeat. Until that time, CableLabs is going to do everything in its power to protect the near-trillion dollar motion picture industry from losing so much as penny, at least by their calculations. If that means dropping a competitor they were previously forced to support for spec violations, so much the better.



lighthouse58 said:


> This forum is one way in which we CONSUMERS can let the mfrs' know what we want. Give it to us and we'll give you money for it. if Tivo won't do it, then maybe someone will make something like myth or xbmc do it.


There is not a snowball's chance either of those will get CableLabs certification, so they won't be able to record anything at all unless it happens to be clear QAM. Not only that but so many of the very vocal people in this forum badly overestimate their following. Many people have whined incessantly how a 3rd tuner would be a cash cow for TiVo. Many others have whined incessanty how card-less Clear QAM support would overflow TiVo's coffers with money. Moxi has both. I guess people are just waiting until after Christmas to purchase hundreds of thousands of Moxis?



lighthouse58 said:


> and guess what? myth and xbmc aren't beholden to cablelabs. that puts pressure on cablelabs to make accommodations to Tivo.


Are you daft? First of all, no stand-alone DVR is going to be able to make it without CableLabs certification. Secondly, TiVo does not represent any revenue at all - not a penny - for the interests controlling CableLabs. They would be quite happy, indeed happier - if TiVo went out of business. TiVo relies almost entirely on CableLabs good graces for their income, but CableLabs gets almost nothing from the existence of TiVos. CableLabs is concerned about protecting the tens of billions of dollars of revenue of their parent CATV systems and the hundreds of billions of dollars of income of the MPAA. They could not care less about a few million dollars worth of revenue of a tiny competitor like TiVo and even less a minuscule competitor like a third party start-up or an open source hobbyist's platform, even if they were getting a cut from the revenue, which they are not.


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

For your information it is neither unwise or idiotic for consumers to let mfrs know what they want in exchange for their hard earned dollars. It IS idiotic for industries to ignore the wishes of the buyers. The media companies constantly display their cluelessness every time technology advances. It's just like how the vcr destroyed hollywood. Oh, wait, that didn't happen. You are probably the only member here who gives a crap about cable labs fortunes. If you go back and read my OP you'll see that I wasn't asking for anything that harms the rights holders. I just wanna make something I can do now easier. you're the only one here who seems to be concerned about the impending poverty of the media industry.

Btw, I received my new tivo premiere the other day and was pleasantly surprised when I started to move my SPs over. It turns out that for SPs that are currently in the schedule, tivo offered me a choice between my original SD channel and the corresponding HD channel. It was only for those shows that are not on the schedule for the next 14 days that I'm stuck.for those I would like the ability to manually set a channel--all without bankrupting hollywood. Imagine that.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> I think threads suggesting new features are fun.


...except all you read is *****ing...:down: :down: :down:


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lighthouse58 said:


> For your information it is neither unwise or idiotic for consumers to let mfrs know what they want in exchange for their hard earned dollars.


No it isn't, but there are also improper ways and proper ways to do it such as the suggestions forum, the TiVo suggestions survey, etc.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

lrhorer said:


> This is transitional. Eventually virtually every channel will be HD.


The bandwidth requirements suggest otherwise...


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

pdhenry said:


> The bandwidth requirements suggest otherwise...


That sounds a lot like when Bill Gates said that no one would ever need more than 256K of RAM. Or when IBM's Watson said that the world only needed 3 or 4 computers total. You can count on bandwidth being there when the customers are lined up with cash in hand.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

This lrhorer vs. lighthouse58 exchange is reminiscent of the many bicker-vs-almost-anyone "debates" we used to see in this coffee house. I'm not taking sides -- I see merit in both sides' arguments. But I've noticed the absence of bicker in the last few months -- did he get severely rapped by the admins or what? It might be going too far to say I actually miss him, however.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

lighthouse58 said:


> That sounds a lot like when Bill Gates said that no one would ever need more than 256K of RAM. Or when IBM's Watson said that the world only needed 3 or 4 computers total. You can count on bandwidth being there when the customers are lined up with cash in hand.


It's not about what people want or need, it's that you can only fit so much data into a finite frequency band. Possibly improved data compression will allow more efficient use to the finite spectrum, but cable companies' efforts to transmit more channels by reducing the quality of what's transmitted won't be the answer that people will accept. I'm concluding that people will be reluctant to give up 2 or 3 SD channels for one more HD channel.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Momo I don't think you are being sincere with your effort to help. I think your posts are just trying to get someone to click the link in your sig.:down::down::down:


The momo203 link in your quote doesn't go to a post by momo203, and I can't find that handle in the members list, nor does search of all forums for posts by momo203 find any posts. (???) Did he/she get banned?


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

dlfl said:


> This lrhorer vs. lighthouse58 exchange is reminiscent of the many bicker-vs-almost-anyone "debates" we used to see in this coffee house. I'm not taking sides -- I see merit in both sides' arguments. But I've noticed the absence of bicker in the last few months -- did he get severely rapped by the admins or what? It might be going too far to say I actually miss him, however.


i'm not trying to bicker or start a flame war. I just want to start a conversation about various features that I think Tivo would be well served to offer. I have worked on many s/w development teams, so when I suggest a feature, I give some thought about the effort involved to implement it. There is nothing more frustrating to me than to see someone dismiss something out of hand b/c:

the "industry" won't like it
it's never been done that way before
i can do the same thing with 15 boop-boops of my peanut
yadda yadda

If there is a feature that the community thinks is worthwhile and makes it easier for us to do the things we want w/ our Tivos AND it can be reasonably implemented, then i think it should.

For example, I have been on one of those Tivo survey boards for a while now. If you haven't seen them, tivo sends you to a site where you pick multiple choice answers to questions that make them look good. but at the end they usually have a text box for free-style suggestions. I ALWAYS fill that out. From the beginning I always included a comment about giving us a real keyboard to use. Finally, Tivo gave us the new peanut w/ the keyboard inside. Nice, but what's wrong w/ letting us plug in ANY wireless USB keyboard?

Anytime i see a response to that it's something like, "Our customers want the convenience of sitting back on the couch like mushrooms and absorbing shows that they've recorded w/ minimal effort." Phooey! I'm not saying that we should force those customers to use a wireless keyboard, but I want one and I'll bet there's more than a few people on this forum who would want one too.

Tivo should have someone lurking on this board and I hope that they see these discussions and act on them. I want Tivo to be successful, profitable, and be around for a while. BUT they need to be willing to implement incremental improvements for my loyalty. I don't think a wireless keyboard for my Tivo is worth $90 when i can get a generic wireless kb for $20. that just feels like a ripoff to me.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lighthouse58 said:


> i'm not trying to bicker or start a flame war. I just want to start a conversation about various features that I think Tivo would be well served to offer. I have worked on many s/w development teams, so when I suggest a feature, I give some thought about the effort involved to implement it. There is nothing more frustrating to me than to see someone dismiss something out of hand b/c:
> 
> the "industry" won't like it
> it's never been done that way before
> ...


I haven't read all your posts on this topic but I have to say that in this post you come across as having unrealistic expectations of TiVo. Only TiVo is in a position to estimate whether they would be "well served" to implement a feature. Outsiders don't have the knowledge of all the factors that enter into such deliberations, such as cost to implement, workload priority compared to other possible tasks, and the resultant expected revenue improvement (market analysis). Note that analysis of revenue improvement should include indirect mechanisms such as "goodwill" and "reputation" which impact future revenue prospects.

You may have a strong feeling they aren't making these decisions properly but without being inside the company with all the requisite knowledge, your feelings are hard to substantiate.

It would be nice if TiVo would publicly respond to feature requests, explaining all the technical, financial and marketing aspects of their decisions, but that involves a lot of labor and also implies they will reveal proprietary information, and -- finally -- it won't satisfy a lot of people even though it represents their best effort at a logical decision. I suspect TiVo's strategy is to concentrate efforts on product development and sales rather than customer relations. Whether they are playing it optimally, who knows? But they are the ones that have the most at stake and will pay the price if they do it wrong.


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

your reasoning falls somewhere w/in bullets 1,2,and 3 in my list. Tivo OS is built on the open source GNU OS. Tivo also includes USB ports. therefore, not a big deal to provide support for generic wireless keyboards. Like I said, I consider how some of these things can be implemented. You make it sound like they're rocket scientists there planning a manned mission to mars. You listen to your customers and see what it is that THEY want and then you create a roadmap to implement those features. all those dates on the roadmap? they're guestimates.

Manager: How soon can you implement the widget we talked about?
Developer: It'll take me at least two weeks.
Manager: Make it happen in one week.

Director: When can we roll out the new widget feature?
Manager: It'll be ready in 3 weeks.
Director: Good, get it on the schedule.

Market analysis? What do you think this forum is?


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

lighthouse58 said:


> I don't know about your lineup, but on my cable lineup, everything above channel 500 seems to be HD. Since there are only a handful of companies that deliver most of the cable/sat services around the country, it doesn't seem to be an insurmountable problem.


Maybe only a handfull of companies (big hand though), but they have multiple headends which each have different channel lineups. Last week's NCTA report indicated that there are now 7,527 headends.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

lighthouse58 said:


> From the beginning I always included a comment about giving us a real keyboard to use. Finally, Tivo gave us the new peanut w/ the keyboard inside. Nice, but what's wrong w/ letting us plug in ANY wireless USB keyboard?.


Umm . You _can_ plug in and USB keyboard, wireless or not. That got reported here even before the remotes were available for sale.

The peanut remote's dongle just make it show up as a standard USB HID keyboard device, nothing special or proprietary,


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lighthouse58 said:


> .........
> Manager: How soon can you implement the widget we talked about?
> Developer: It'll take me at least two weeks.
> Manager: Make it happen in one week.
> ...


If TiVo operates on a model implied by this, they will soon have much bigger problems than just failing to bring out your widget, and not satisfying you with an explanation of why. Both manager and director have to be concerned with where the resources to implement your widget come from (e.g., what other development DOESN'T get done in order to do your widget), and they have to weigh that cost against what the short- and long-term payoff for TiVo will be. This implies market analysis, and whether they do it formally, or just based on their gut knowledge of the market, they will be doing it with better judgement than that of an outsider (e.g., you).

Your response just bolsters my impression you have unrealistic expectations.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ferrumpneuma said:


> TiVo doesn't need 3rd party developers. Software is their core competence.:up::up::up:


You're right, the hardware is a PITA.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

dlfl said:


> The momo203 link in your quote doesn't go to a post by momo203, and I can't find that handle in the members list, nor does search of all forums for posts by momo203 find any posts. (???) Did he/she get banned?


I suspect that the 24 identical posts to 24 different threads, all of which contained his sig, which was a link to some site about replica wristwatches or something like that, provided ample justification.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ferrumpneuma said:


> Momo I don't think you are being sincere with your effort to help. I think your posts are just trying to get someone to click the link in your sig.:down::down::down:


You really think that? Just because he posted the exact same thing to 24 different threads?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> It's not about what people want or need, it's that you can only fit so much data into a finite frequency band. Possibly improved data compression will allow more efficient use to the finite spectrum, but cable companies' efforts to transmit more channels by reducing the quality of what's transmitted won't be the answer that people will accept. I'm concluding that people will be reluctant to give up 2 or 3 SD channels for one more HD channel.


not sure how you see that-

MPEG4, SDV, IPTV, node splitting all are possible technical advances being deployed to help the bandwidth limits. And in a few years there will be another handfull or two of analog locals that they can shut off.

And beyond that- there's a large portion of the population that doesn't even know the difference between SD and HD. Directv for years had "bit starved, down rezzed" HD channels, comcast had "threee to a QAM" and it had no major effect on them except on the internet boards. So even if they ran out of bandwidth at some point, i'm not sure they wouldn't squeeze too much in there- like DBS and Cable did at the start of the HD changover.

Current real world- the majority of my comcast lineup has an HD equal. I've removed pretty much all the SD from channels I receive. The only channels we personally watch in SD instead of HD are ESPN Classics and tv land- because both are just SD content anyway (not even sure HD versions of those exist)- and the local origination from my the local schools and such (which are currently analog hogs anyway- so switching them to HD would free up room).


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> No it isn't, but there are also improper ways and proper ways to do it (...for consumers to let mfrs know what they want in exchange for their hard earned dollars.) such as the suggestions forum, the TiVo suggestions survey, etc.


Improper?

It's not as though someone was advocating wrapping a note around a rock and throwing it through TiVo's window.

I'm a lot more interested in commercial enterprises behaving themselves with respect to me than the other way around.


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

unitron said:


> Improper?
> 
> It's not as though someone was advocating wrapping a note around a rock and throwing it through TiVo's window.
> 
> I'm a lot more interested in commercial enterprises behaving themselves with respect to me than the other way around.


LMAO. THAT'S exactly what I've been talking about. hahaaha. Some people on this thread act like we should be softly stroking the foreheads of Tivo execs while we whisper sweet nothings into their ears. "May I plump your pillow, suh?"


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ferrumpneuma said:


> I think threads suggesting new features are fun.


HeHe. Very profound! Shades of ***Jack Handey***. 

Merry Christmas!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lighthouse58 said:


> For your information it is neither unwise or idiotic for consumers to let mfrs know what they want in exchange for their hard earned dollars.


For your information, it is, whenever those desires are idiotic. What's more, if you think the giant business interests in this country care one tiny little bit how hard you do or do not work for your money, then you are a fool.



lighthouse58 said:


> It IS idiotic for industries to ignore the wishes of the buyers.


Why, because they will go bankrupt? That explains why AT&T is on the verg of bankruptcy. Oh, wait...



lighthouse58 said:


> The media companies constantly display their cluelessness every time technology advances. It's just like how the vcr destroyed hollywood. Oh, wait, that didn't happen.


No, it didn't. I never said there were no companies who allowed their greed to overshadow new and unique profit opportunities, and your example is an excellent one. This is not a profit opportunity for TiVo, however. OTOH, it would be an excellent way to guarantee their revenue stream would be cut by over 95%.



lighthouse58 said:


> You are probably the only member here who gives a crap about cable labs fortunes.


Speaking of the "fortunes" of a non-profit organization is moronic, and I never said anything so stupid as to suggest CableLabs success - whatever that means - has anything to do with the question at hand. The simple *FACT* is, any move to undertake such a venture on the part of TiVo, inc, would result in CableLabs instantly pulling their certification, which would immediately prevent the S3 and S4 units from being used on virtually any CATV system in the United States. How many units do think TiVo would sell when ever single CATV installer and CSR in the country refused to allow any TiVo to be attached to the CATV plant? How many existing units do you think would hit the junk heap (goodbye monthly subs) when their CableCards suddenly and permanently quit working?



lighthouse58 said:


> If you go back and read my OP you'll see that I wasn't asking for anything that harms the rights holders. I just wanna make something I can do now easier. you're the only one here who seems to be concerned about the impending poverty of the media industry.


Where the hell do you get that nonsense? **YOU** need to go back and read my messages. The only desire I have WRT the media at all is to see every last one shut down completely and their senior teams shackled in heavy irons for the rest of their lives. My desire to see them and every one of their family members tortured daily in no way blinds me to the fact that if TiVo tried something so monumentally stupid as you suggest, those very same people - and the trillions of dollars they control - would see to it TiVo was out of business by the end of the week.



lighthouse58 said:


> all without bankrupting hollywood. Imagine that.


Bankrupting Hollywood would be a wonderful idea, but there is no way a tiny company like TiVo could try, and they would have to be complete morons to try, especially since CableLabs has nearly complete control of TiVo's purse.

Here, since you seem to be having so much trouble understanding, I'll give you an analogy: TiVo is a little boy named David, with a little sling, but no stones to fit into it. The CATV companies and the MPAA are a battalion of 12 foot giants, holding not only the handful of little stones that David needs for his sling, but also thousands of boulders, each and every one capable of crushing David to jelly at any one of the giant's whims. The giants have all told David very truthfully that if he annoys them even a little bit, each giant in the battalion will gleefully take turns crushing David into a tiny little grease spot, something they all actually want to do in the first place. Now you come along and just because you want to see David do it, you ask him to go around kicking all the giants in the shins and calling their mothers names.

Now do you capiche?

TiVo has two simple options: follow your idea and be immediately forced out of business by some of the most powerful industries in the world, ones who hold absolute control over TiVo's being able to sell DVRs at all, or ignore you and try to make a profit.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> The bandwidth requirements suggest otherwise...





pdhenry said:


> It's not about what people want or need, it's that you can only fit so much data into a finite frequency band.


I'm afraid you are incorrect. Switched Digital Video allows the deployment of an unlimited number of "channels", HD or otherwise. The number of HD chanels is not limited by the bandwidth of the delivery medium, but only by the number of receivers per node. Indeed, even if every receiver is being sent a different payload, then once the number of receivers multiplied by the bit rate of each one's payload is less than the total available bandwidth, the number of channels that can be provided is unlimited. In the real world, however, the number of realizable channels tends to infinity long before that, because a significant number of receivers on any node will be tuned to the same stream.

In real terms, if a CATV company goes 100% digital, the average plant has a downstream bandwidth of 690 MHz, or about 115 QAMs. If we assume the industry norm of 2 HD channels per QAM, that's 130 linear channels. With SDV, allowing about 800 - 1000 receivers per node produces very easily more HD channels than that 800 - 1000 receivers will require, meaning the numebr of channels can be infinite. Certainly they can all be HD.



pdhenry said:


> Possibly improved data compression will allow more efficient use to the finite spectrum, but cable companies' efforts to transmit more channels by reducing the quality of what's transmitted won't be the answer that people will accept.


That's why most never even tried. It's simply unnecessary.



pdhenry said:


> I'm concluding that people will be reluctant to give up 2 or 3 SD channels for one more HD channel.


<sigh>

Please refrain from pulling numbers out of... thin air. A 6MHz QAM with industry norm rate-shaping hosts 12 SD, 1 HD and 6 SD, or 2 HD and 1 SD channel. If one trades HD channels directly for SD channels, then one "gives up" 5.5 SD channels for one HD channel. With SDV, one does not "give up" anything, however.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lighthouse58 said:


> That sounds a lot like when Bill Gates said that no one would ever need more than 256K of RAM. Or when IBM's Watson said that the world only needed 3 or 4 computers total. You can count on bandwidth being there when the customers are lined up with cash in hand.


Actually, it doesn't. The ones you mention were statements made without understanding what people would want and how much. The previous statements were simply made in ignorance of how current technology can handle the demands.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lighthouse58 said:


> i'm not trying to bicker or start a flame war. I just want to start a conversation about various features that I think Tivo would be well served to offer.


No, at the very best you have suggested some very ill conceived ideas.



lighthouse58 said:


> I have worked on many s/w development teams, so when I suggest a feature, I give some thought about the effort involved to implement it.


None of the things you suggest are difficult from a development perspective.



lighthouse58 said:


> There is nothing more frustrating to me than to see someone dismiss something out of hand b/c:
> 
> the "industry" won't like it




*IT'S NOT THE INDUSTRY!!! IS IS THE LICENSING AUTHORITY, WHICH IS MADE UP 100% OF TIVO's COMPETITION!!* Do you understand, now? CableLabs makes nothing, nada, zip, zilch, from TiVo's success. The controlling interests in CableLabs only allow TiVo to obtain a license because they can offer the FCC no excuse not to do so. Your ideas would give them the perfect excuse. They would yank TiVo's license in a heartbeat and orders would go out to shut down each and every CableCard in each and every TiVo across the nation by the time the sun set.



lighthouse58 said:


> If there is a feature that the community thinks is worthwhile and makes it easier for us to do the things we want w/ our Tivos AND it can be reasonably implemented, then i think it should.


Only if it is technically and financially feasible. In this case, "financially feasible" doesn't involve R&D expenses. It involves TiVo being able to ever sell any more TiVos.



lighthouse58 said:


> I ALWAYS fill that out. From the beginning I always included a comment about giving us a real keyboard to use. Finally, Tivo gave us the new peanut w/ the keyboard inside. Nice, but what's wrong w/ letting us plug in ANY wireless USB keyboard?


That is a completely different matter. Adding a keyboard won't risk losing CableLabs certification.



lighthouse58 said:


> Anytime i see a response to that it's something like, "Our customers want the convenience of sitting back on the couch like mushrooms and absorbing shows that they've recorded w/ minimal effort." Phooey! I'm not saying that we should force those customers to use a wireless keyboard, but I want one and I'll bet there's more than a few people on this forum who would want one too.


That's not much of a bet, since the idea has been suggested any number of times. Had your original post suggested this, or a similar feature, then I would not have had great issue with it, other than the fact that AFAIK it is already available. In any case, it's not something of which I would likely take advantage, but it is not a highly impractical suggestion, either.



lighthouse58 said:


> I want Tivo to be successful, profitable, and be around for a while


Clearly you do not do any such thing, or else you would take the legal, licensing, and economic environment into account, and you have utterly failed to do so. I'll make it simple for you: TiVo simply cannot survive if CableLabs yanks their CableCard certification, and the controlling entities of CableLabs are looking fo every possible excuse to do so.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dlfl said:


> ...But I've noticed the absence of bicker in the last few months -- did he get severely rapped by the admins or what? It might be going too far to say I actually miss him, however.


I noticed that, myself. His last post seems to have been in late September. Sometimes bicker had some good points to make. Other times, he would start off on a good course, but then veer off the mark. Still other times, he just didn't get it. I also wonder if he got whacked - a thought which actually doesn't thrill me, or if he has been ill or otherwise seriously indisposed. The latter is a thought which pleases me not at all...


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dlfl said:


> If TiVo operates on a model implied by this, they will soon have much bigger problems than just failing to bring out your widget, and not satisfying you with an explanation of why. Both manager and director have to be concerned with where the resources to implement your widget come from (e.g., what other development DOESN'T get done in order to do your widget), and they have to weigh that cost against what the short- and long-term payoff for TiVo will be. This implies market analysis, and whether they do it formally, or just based on their gut knowledge of the market, they will be doing it with better judgement than that of an outsider (e.g., you).


There is a much more fundamental problem, here. Opening up a 3rd party API for development on the DVR is a direct violation of the CableLabs licensing agreement. It is grouinds for refusing to allow any S3 / S4 TiVo to being given a CableCard. It would be instant death for TiVo.



dlfl said:


> Your response just bolsters my impression you have unrealistic expectations.


Boy, is that an understatement.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I concede the SDV argument (when/where it works as intended). Otherwise, take a freakin' pill, man...


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> I noticed that, myself. His last post seems to have been in late September. Sometimes bicker had some good points to make. Other times, he would start off on a good course, but then veer off the mark. Still other times, he just didn't get it. I also wonder if he got whacked - a thought which actually doesn't thrill me, or if he has been ill or otherwise seriously indisposed. The latter is a thought which pleases me not at all...


My guess is like many of the old regular posters they have gone into lurk mode or left completely. I wouldn't visit this site nearly as often if it wasn't one of the only sites I have unblocked at work. Then again these days I do more PM conversations than postings.

You will also find the same thing with bkdtv who always does the FAQs for the various models. He hasn't been on since August or so.


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> No, at the very best you have suggested some very ill conceived ideas.
> 
> None of the things you suggest are difficult from a development perspective.
> 
> *IT'S NOT THE INDUSTRY!!! IS IS THE LICENSING AUTHORITY, WHICH IS MADE UP 100% OF TIVO's COMPETITION!!* Do you understand, now? CableLabs makes nothing, nada, zip, zilch, from TiVo's ...snip...


Wow! Clearly, I failed to recognize your superior intellect. Especially your talent in the oh so rare ability to come off as a genuinely warm and charismatic personality.

Honestly, i'm not sure which of my industry shaking suggestions warranted all this concern for tivo's cablelab certification?? was it my desire to have my tivo automatically prioritize toward HD channels in my Season Passes? was it my desire to be able to manually edit the preferred channel on my SPs? Maybe my desire to use generic keyboards? Not sure. any of those "disruptive technologies" would certainly be cause enough for cablelabs to send in black helicoptors to tivo headquarters.

I was amused by your all caps assertion that cablelabs is NOT THE INDUSTRY!!! I should have realized that superior intellect is usually complemented by a superior sense of humor. My bad. Cablelabs is an organization with a membership open to any cable operator. Hmmm... smells like an industry interest group. And... they're non-profit... so I guess that means they are almost like a church group. Operated solely for altruistic purposes by people who just do it for the love of the viewing public.

Dude! all i want is convenience in watching tv and other video sources.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lighthouse58 said:


> ........Dude! all i want is convenience in watching tv and other video sources.


All I want is to be young again, and rich. Oh, and also, a world where the word "dude" doesn't exist.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

lighthouse58 said:


> Wow! Clearly, I failed to recognize your superior intellect. Especially your talent in the oh so rare ability to come off as a genuinely warm and charismatic personality.


If you have a point to make, I suggest you do so. My personality or lack thereof is of no more concern in this discussion than yours.



lighthouse58 said:


> Honestly, i'm not sure which of my industry shaking suggestions warranted all this concern for tivo's cablelab certification??


Then I suggest you go back and read your very first post, specifically the last sentence.



lighthouse58 said:


> was it my desire to have my tivo automatically prioritize toward HD channels in my Season Passes? was it my desire to be able to manually edit the preferred channel on my SPs? Maybe my desire to use generic keyboards? Not sure. any of those "disruptive technologies" would certainly be cause enough for cablelabs to send in black helicoptors to tivo headquarters.


Providing a 3rd party API for TiVo applications would be in direct and literal violation of TiVo's licensing agreement with CableLabs.

Oh, and BTW, actually providing such an API while maintaing the requisite secure chain of trust woud be a lot more difficult than you suggest. If you actually have done the amount of development you claim, then you should know that.



lighthouse58 said:


> would certainly be cause enough for cablelabs to send in black helicoptors to tivo headquarters.


Don't be moronic. It would result in nothing more dramatic than a letter sent to TiVo Inc, with a copy sent to the FCC, notifying TiVo their license to use CableCard technology and the authroization to serve as a UDCP under the CableLabs licensing agreement had been nullified by TiVos breach of the licensing agreement. Every MSO that is a participant in CableLabs woud then be notified they should shut down every CableCard paired with a TiVo. TiVo's subsequent demise would be swifter than Worldcom's.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your supercilious post. It's far from worth it.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> My guess is like many of the old regular posters they have gone into lurk mode or left completely.


Bicker? You're joking. Even if his disappearance were not so abrupt and unheralded, I can't imagine him ever just lurking.



innocentfreak said:


> I wouldn't visit this site nearly as often if it wasn't one of the only sites I have unblocked at work. Then again these days I do more PM conversations than postings.


To each his own. I only PM very occasionally, and only concerning very focussed topics that are strictly not relevant to the conferences.



innocentfreak said:


> You will also find the same thing with bkdtv who always does the FAQs for the various models. He hasn't been on since August or so.


Yeah, but he's a little different kettle of fish than bicker.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Bicker? You're joking. Even if his disappearance were not so abrupt and unheralded, I can't imagine him ever just lurking.
> .........


Bicker's last posts were on 9-30-2010 and they were typical bicker with no hint of impending departure......

OK, I'll admit I'm now starting to miss him, in spite of the fact we had some "spirited" discussions.


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## lighthouse58 (Feb 24, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> ...snip...
> Then I suggest you go back and read your very first post, specifically the last sentence.
> 
> Providing a 3rd party API for TiVo applications would be in direct and literal violation of TiVo's licensing agreement with CableLabs.
> ...


the 3rd party comment was clearly a throw-away--not really part of the discussion, rather than a voice for my frustration. I'd much rather have Tivo continue to improve their own product. Still, your incessant babbling about cablelabs is hilarious. you should go on the road w/ that show.


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