# Caption problem on 20.4.6 (verifiable)



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions. The captions are disappearing quicker than they should. They appear on time, but in the case of a long sentence (ex: a three line caption), by the time the speaker gets halfway thru, the captions go away. They should stay up until the speaker finishes talking. It doesn't always do it, but it does it a lot of the time.

I started noticing this about a week or two ago, but at first didn't give it much thought. Then I realized it was happening far too often. I tested it by watching the same show on a 20.4.5 Premiere. The captions stay up as they should. I actually noted on which word they disappeared, and on the Premiere it was perfect, on both my Roamios, the captions blank out too fast.

Testing: I have recorded the same show on three units, an Elite, a Roamio basic recording OTA, and a Roamio Pro. On tonight's Criminal Minds, the two Roamios both exhibited this problem. The Elite did not. I then streamed the Elite's recording to the other two, and it happens. I then streamed the Roamio's recording to the Elite, and it did not happen. Bottom line: It doesn't matter where or who recorded it, OTA or antenna, playing on a Roamio causes it, but not the Premiere. Only difference: 20.4.6

It also happens on multiple networks. I haven't tested that many, but CBS & FX (Justified last night) both have it. And I believe it is significant that both antenna & cable have it; this eliminates Comcast as a problem.

I am very attuned to how captions work and display, as I am a 100% caption viewer. This is very disconcerting, and distracts from watching TV. I will file a complaint with TiVo, but want to post here too, to see if others notice this.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

astrohip said:


> 20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions. The captions are disappearing quicker than they should. They appear on time, but in the case of a long sentence (ex: a three line caption), by the time the speaker gets halfway thru, the captions go away. They should stay up until the speaker finishes talking. It doesn't always do it, but it does it a lot of the time.
> 
> I started noticing this about a week or two ago, but at first didn't give it much thought. Then I realized it was happening far too often. I tested it by watching the same show on a 20.4.5 Premiere. The captions stay up as they should. I actually noted on which word they disappeared, and on the Premiere it was perfect, on both my Roamios, the captions blank out too fast.
> 
> ...


I use captions on movies so if I miss a word I can look at the caption, now many times I have to back up to catch that word, never though about this before because I don't need the captions except for movies that have a lot of THX 5.1 sound that sometimes covers up the words more than my ears can handle.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Noticed the same thing yesterday as to captions disappearing too quickly (and my having to go back to re-read them, to get everything), and even looked in the cc settings to see if there is a setting to have the captions stay up longer (there isn't). But as I'm new to the Roamio, I assumed that this just is how things are. Good to hear it may be a bug, and so can be altered.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Noticed the same thing yesterday as to captions disappearing too quickly (and my having to go back to re-read them, to get everything), and even looked in the cc settings to see if there is a setting to have the captions stay up longer (there isn't). But as I'm new to the Roamio, I assumed that this just is how things are. Good to hear it may be a bug, and so can be altered.


I went to the settings also, thinking maybe somehow, with the .6 update, that digital captions were turned on (digicaps wreak havoc on the display), but all was normal.

I'm confident TiVo will fix this; captions are too big a deal, and TiVo has always put a priority on captions.


----------



## moonscape (Jul 3, 2004)

Oh good, I'm not imagining it! I use captions about 10% of the time, and the other day had to use slow-mo to be able to read it - the caption was more like flashing on the screen than even staying for half a sentence.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Someone who uses captions most of the time should report this to TiVo.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

astrohip said:


> I'm confident TiVo will fix this; captions are too big a deal, and TiVo has always put a priority on captions.


 I wouldn't say captions are high priority for them. There's a long standing bug where transferring recordings back to TiVo in PS container (even unmodified .TiVo files) loses captions. It's been reported for years yet TiVo has ignored the problem. Workaround is to transfer back in TS container.


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

I've been experiencing intermittent closed caption issues since .5 release. I was hopeful they would be addressed with .6 but, alas no. I don't experience problems with live viewing, just with recorded. Captions will disappear completely, especially and mostly if I pause the show and resume. The only way to re-enable them is to back out of the recording and resume. All too often, they will disappear again if I pause the show. This happens on any and every channel. In particular, the Smithsonian channel will display no captions at all at times or a jumbled word salad....but not on every show. History channel can be hinky from time to time. All settings are as the should be.

I have reported this to TiVo several times and they have no clue. No clue as to why generic repeats are recorded as new either. Both issues are "sent up the ladder" but so far no joy. It must be a very tall ladder.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

astrohip said:


> 20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions. The captions are disappearing quicker than they should.


I've noticed that here too. Hope TiVo fixes it in the next update.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

lessd said:


> Someone who uses captions most of the time should report this to TiVo.


I have already sent Margret some info, and I will call TiVo today.



ustavio said:


> I've been experiencing intermittent closed caption issues since .5 release.<snip>


Different issue. What you are experiencing, while frustrating, is not the norm. Most of us don't see that, or the phones would be ringing off the walls. This issue with .6 is repeatable and consistent.

You have dbl checked that digital captions are OFF?


----------



## worachj (Oct 14, 2006)

astrohip said:


> I have already sent Margret some info, and I will call TiVo today.


Thanks for reporting this I have the same problem since the last update.


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks for alerting me to this issue. We will look into it right away.

--Margret


----------



## stevewjackson (Nov 2, 2007)

TiVoMargret said:


> Thanks for alerting me to this issue. We will look into it right away.
> 
> --Margret


This is excellent news. Until I saw this thread, I thought perhaps it was just me. Way to go, Margret!


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

TiVoMargret said:


> Thanks for alerting me to this issue. We will look into it right away.
> 
> --Margret


Thank you. Greatly appreciated!


----------



## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

astrohip said:


> 20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions. The captions are disappearing quicker than they should. ...


Thanks for doing the investigation on this. I noticed the problem as well, but I did not figure out it was 20.4.6 related, I thought it was something with the recordings.


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

Different issue. What you are experiencing, while frustrating, is not the norm. Most of us don't see that, or the phones would be ringing off the walls. This issue with .6 is repeatable and consistent.

You have dbl checked that digital captions are OFF?[/QUOTE]

Digital captions are and always have been off. Although not identical to what you are experiencing, the issue still involves disappearing captions. That this occurs only with recorded shows and after coming out of pause, is, indeed, frustrating. So too, is the periodic word salad on Smithsonian.

I only bring it up here in the context of disappearing captions to see if anyone else has experienced anything similar in addition to (or in lieu of) the issue you describe. Perhaps they are related, perhaps not. Since both involve disappearing captions (whether intermittent or consistent), I thought it would be worth throwing it into the mix to see if anyone else has experienced it.

It took me awhile to actually recognize the problem existed and narrow it down to only recorded shows and only when coming out of pause. I would be surprised if I am the only one experiencing this particular caption issue. It's a sneaky one.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I noticed this, but since I don't use captions a lot I thought it was just something odd with one of the networks.


----------



## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

I'd been wondering if Charter was doing something to the captions. (They regularly mangle captions on certain channels that they recompress, e.g., Showtime.) But this timing thing wasn't the sort of problem they normally have.

Looks like a TiVo problem. Which means it's much more likely to get fixed.


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Good detective work... I was about to say I have seen this before (and I have), so it _CAN_ be caused by the actual captions (i.e. THEY clear too early), but you showed that in this case it is the Roamio somehow.

(I wished that the transition to digital would fix the sometimes-garbled captions issue, but it didn't.. I'm glad I don't have to rely on the captions, but I leave them on the majority of the time.)


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

mattack said:


> Good detective work... I was about to say I have seen this before (and I have), so it _CAN_ be caused by the actual captions (i.e. THEY clear too early), but you showed that in this case it is the Roamio somehow.


Thanks. Yeah, I've seen this on rare occasion (early caption clearing) in the past, but never like this. Thus, the detective work.

Another thing I'm seeing, but I haven't been able to pin it down yet. On a very few shows, I'm seeing captions that don't scroll properly. So far, it's been live shows that caption live on the scroll. Usually the only problem with live programs is the captioning is late (due to live transcribing). But I'm getting where lines disappear, then the next line is position one, then 3, then 2, yada yada. Plus words missing. NBC Evening News is the worst culprit. But I haven't done enough research to determine if it happens to other shows with any regularity.

Thinking as I'm typing this, it's possible the early-disappearing problem, combined with live captioning, is creating a hybrid monster? OTOH, since it doesn't happen ALL the time, I can't yet call it a verifiable bug.

Sadly, my old days as a coder force me to spend far too much time chasing down bugs.. It's like some kind of OCD disease.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Great detective work--thanks. TiVo should provide a bounty for identifications such as this--TiVo-person pillows, perhaps?


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Great detective work--thanks. TiVo should provide a bounty for identifications such as this--TiVo-person pillows, perhaps?


Margret... still reading this thread?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

They should really make a better effort in getting people from here involved in beta testing.


----------



## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

cherry ghost said:


> They should really make a better effort in getting people from here involved in beta testing.


You don't think people on this forum are involved in beta testing?


----------



## Keen (Aug 3, 2009)

TiVoMargret said:


> Thanks for alerting me to this issue. We will look into it right away.
> 
> --Margret


Thank you!

And thanks to astrohip for nailing down the specifics of this issue. I'd seen it in action, but didn't realize it was broken.


----------



## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> They should really make a better effort in getting people from here involved in beta testing.


Once they stopped letting anybody who upgraded the drive in their TiVo into the beta program, I think TiVo lost a lot of good beta feedback,


----------



## sharky777 (Feb 14, 2005)

Same here I have caption issue after .6 update. I used slow-motion button to slow the caption unfortunately it was too quick and garbled. I called Tivo support about it so they said that there are some bugs in software. I asked them to downgrade to .5 but they can't do it. I can't bear watching show with crappy caption!


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

sharky777 said:


> Same here I have caption issue after .6 update. I used slow-motion button to slow the caption unfortunately it was too quick and garbled. I called Tivo support about it so they said that there are some bugs in software. I asked them to downgrade to .5 but they can't do it.* I can't bear watching show with crappy caption!*


Same here. It's amazing how far we've come. From no captions a couple decades ago, to a lot but not everywhere, to captions on almost everything. I realize there are laws that require it, but I still feel lucky they exist.

Having said that... it *is* irritating when they don't work right. Hopefully this is a quick fix, and they can slipstream an update to us.


----------



## TiVoMargret (Feb 3, 2008)

For those of you experiencing this issue, would you please try the following and let me know if the problem goes away:

In Settings > Displays > Closed Captioning,
set "Standard Captions" to "None" and
set "Digital Captions" to "DTVCC1"

Thanks,
--Margret


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

TiVoMargret said:


> For those of you experiencing this issue, would you please try the following and let me know if the problem goes away:
> 
> In Settings > Displays > Closed Captioning,
> set "Standard Captions" to "None" and
> ...


 Problem with that is historically digital captions have been very unreliable. In fact, common wisdom in the forums is to do exactly the opposite - digital captions off and standard captions on. I'll give digital a shot tonight just to evaluate this issue.


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

TiVoMargret said:


> For those of you experiencing this issue, would you please try the following and let me know if the problem goes away:
> 
> In Settings > Displays > Closed Captioning,
> set "Standard Captions" to "None" and
> ...


Always the first thing I try. Most channels present no captions, if set to digital only. If both are enabled, they can sometimes overwrite each other, causing gibberish (even if one alone isn't producing anything visible).

I have to leave mine on standard only, for most of my captioning needs. Rarely, I'll find some movie that only works if set to digital, then I have to switch back to standard.

Other than the new rapid-clearing of the captions, all the rest has been the same situation on TiVo HDs, Premieres, and now Roamios. No other device I have, or have had, required me to switch back and forth, depending on what channel I was watching.

As somebody who just has trouble understanding certain dialects/accents, and is not hearing impaired, I can only imagine how frustrating captions have been for those who rely on them...

It was nice to see you were on this, before I even came to say anything.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I normally have both CC1 and DTVCC1 enabled. From my understanding doing so causes the TiVo software to use standard captions, if they exist and if they don't then it tries digital captions. It used to be the reverse, but that was changed many releases ago because digital captions were not at all reliable. That set up worked well until this release. Now captions vanish faster than usual.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

TiVoMargret said:


> For those of you experiencing this issue, would you please try the following and let me know if the problem goes away:
> 
> In Settings > Displays > Closed Captioning,
> set "Standard Captions" to "None" and
> ...


Doing this solves the "going away too quickly" problem. I just tried it on tonight's Better Call Saul. The captions had been disappearing, and doing this makes them display properly. Turning both on doesn't work. You have to turn Std to None to make it work.

I haven't tried DigiCaps in quite some time (years). As we all know, they used to be an unholy mess, like scrambled eggs. Perhaps they work now. Without trying for an extended period I won't know.

Margret--are you suggesting we switch to Digital Captions, or was this to help diagnose the problem, and create a Standard Caption solution?

Thank you for working on this so promptly. Greatly appreciated!


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

So far for 2 different shows on different channels dig captions were almost perfect for me. Not scrambled and timeouts were not premature. It will take a while to gain trust in them however given past history of dig captions.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Success was short-lived. This evening's "The Voice" episode displayed no captions whatsoever with only digital enabled. Switched to "standard" and captions worked, though with the premature timeouts.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Same problem with tonight's "The Following" episode. No captions at all with digital, fine with "standard" (with premature timing out). So clearly digital captions have not improved much over the years since I last tried them.


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

Same story here: Can't rely on digital to deliver with any consistency. Fast clearing captions trump none at all.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Just to report back:

Setting the caption settings as Margret proposed fixed the captioning issue for me, through 3 hours of programming/5 shows tonight, both live and recorded. The biggest fix I noted: with the settings adjusted as proposed (that is, digital captions set to on), the captions synced correctly and did not prematurely disappear during the fast opening theme song for "The Big Bang Theory"; with only standard captions set to on, there were some caption errors and the captions routinely disappeared too quickly and prematurely.

Only limited results here, as I don't typically leave captions on (and it's only been a day). Simply an FYI.

One additional thing I noticed: with digital captions set to on, some television commercials were captioned, some not--I don't know if that is normal. And all the primetime television shows were captioned, as were syndicated evening television show reruns.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Interesting side effect of DigiCaps. I've been having a problem with delayed captions on ABC (local CH 13-KTRK Houston). Never able to pinpoint the cause, as the captions are ok on both DirecTV and live antenna, but not when recorded on a TiVo. Roamio Pro thru Comcast has delays. Even OTA recorded on a Roamio Basic has delays, but watching live does not (exact same feed/coax cable).

Turned on DigiCaps tonight, to continue testing the disappearing caption problem, and lo and behold... no caption delay on ABC. Captions are timed correctly. Went back and undeleted some ABC shows to test, and they are perfect too.

Strange, eh? And they don't disappear early either. However, the font is weird on DigiCaps. On CSI:Cyber tonight, they were switching from some large Courier Teletype style, to a regular font. And back & forth.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

No font issue for me on reruns, on my local Fox station, of "Modern Family" and "The Big Bang Theory," or first runs on Fox of "Hell's Kitchen" and "Fresh Off the Boat" on ABC. But based on the experiences of others above and my not having digital captions issues, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.


----------



## nooneuknow (Feb 5, 2011)

I have some curiosities as to what version of software people are on, when reporting here, and if they are even thinking about at what point 6.a.RC1 finished installing, when posting.

20.4.6a.RC1 seems to have gone out wide and fast. It almost seems like a panic release.

While nobody asked, I don't feel switching to digital captions is a proper fix. It's clear TiVo changed something that made what worked OK, not work OK, and then we are asked to change to captions that are not always reliable, and can vary between markets/regions. No dice for me with digital caps.

I can be happy for those who are getting good results with digital captions. But, not at my expense, if TiVo decides that's the official fix.

*I'd feel much better if Margret would answer the question others have asked: Is this just a troubleshooting request, or considered the official "fix"?*


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

nooneuknow said:


> *I'd feel much better if Margret would answer the question others have asked: Is this just a troubleshooting request, or considered the official "fix"?*


 I'd like to know too. 50% of shows I've viewed in the last 2 days didn't work at all using digital captions, while all worked using standard, so clearly using digital is not a fix.


----------



## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

nooneuknow said:


> 20.4.6a.RC1 seems to have gone out wide and fast. It almost seems like a panic release.


It was.

This update was put out to fix a security hole. (Bad channel maps could crash the TiVo. Based on the type of bug and the response from TiVo, I wouldn't be surprised if malicious channel maps could cause arbitrary code execution, too. It's not clear to me whether it was in the kernel or in user-space code, but either one could be quite bad.)


----------



## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

While on the topic of CC settings, Tivo is overdue a UI redesign for this.

None of my other electronics makes me go into deep settings to enable or tweak CC options.

The most common UI is there's a CC button, that turns it On or Off. In Tivo's case, making it modal Off/Digital/Analog would still be much better than what we currently have to do.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Closed Captions On:
0000 006D 0022 0002 0155 00AB 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 070F 0155 0056 0015 0E6C

Closed Captions Off:
0000 006D 0022 0002 0155 00AB 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 06E5 0155 0056 0015 0E6C


----------



## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

cherry ghost said:


> Closed Captions On:
> 0000 006D 0022 0002 0155 00AB 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 0015 0015 003F 0015 070F 0155 0056 0015 0E6C
> *Info>Down>Down>Select*
> 
> ...


Fixed That For You


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

I decided to experiment and enabled both Standard and Digital as either one or the other alone left some channels without any captions at all. I set everything to default (except text color which is set to yellow). So far this seems to have resolved all issues for me, although there is the loss of customization. Digital presents in bold caps and standard captions appear tp be proportional sans serif. It also seems to work coming out of pause (an issue only I seemed to be experiencing). I'll continue to test and see if this is a solution or a fluke.


----------



## KLINK (Aug 17, 2004)

telemark said:


> While on the topic of CC settings, Tivo is overdue a UI redesign for this.
> 
> None of my other electronics makes me go into deep settings to enable or tweak CC options.
> 
> The most common UI is there's a CC button, that turns it On or Off. In Tivo's case, making it modal Off/Digital/Analog would still be much better than what we currently have to do.


If you have a android device, RCX for TiVo (free) will do what you want.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=rc.apps.rcXfree


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

humbb said:


> Fixed That For You


I'll stick with one button for "on" and one button for "off" on my Harmony remote with no Info bar getting in the way.


----------



## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

cherry ghost said:


> I'll stick with one button for "on" and one button for "off" on my Harmony remote with no Info bar getting in the way.


Sorry, didn't realize you were speaking Harmony there. 

Before I got my Roamio in early 2014 I had the Comcast box (Moto DCX3400) which (at least before the last firmware upgrade) possibly had the worst CC implementation. Not only did you have to go deep in the menus to turn on/off CC's, but then you had to restart the box! The upgrade got rid of the restart requirement.

So, I've been quite pleased with the Tivo's Info button procedure in contrast.


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

ustavio said:


> I decided to experiment and enabled both Standard and Digital as either one or the other alone left some channels without any captions at all. I set everything to default (except text color which is set to yellow). So far this seems to have resolved all issues for me, although there is the loss of customization. Digital presents in bold caps and standard captions appear to be proportional sans serif. It also seems to work coming out of pause (an issue only I seemed to be experiencing). I'll continue to test and see if this is a solution or a fluke.


Between the .6a, .6a RC1 updates (and perhaps Fios ditching Weather Channel......turning on BOTH Standard and Digital captions AND setting everything to DEFAULT has given me fully functional captions on all channels. It also seems to have fixed the issue I (and apparently only I) was having with captions disappearing when coming out of pause in live and recorded shows. No more word salad on Smithsonian either.

This does not hold up, however, if I try to do a lot of customization. I can get yellow words but too much tinkering seems to confuse the person typing as fast as they can to keep up with all the dialogue.

Would be interested to see if any still experiencing issues have tried this (or anything else) and found resolution.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

ustavio said:


> Between the .6a, .6a RC1 updates (and perhaps Fios ditching Weather Channel......turning on BOTH Standard and Digital captions AND setting everything to DEFAULT has given me fully functional captions on all channels.


 For me enabling both standard and digital doesn't help. When both are enabled it looks like TiVo defaults to using standard, and so the premature timeouts still happen just the same as when digital is disabled. As I've mentioned, if I only enable digital then some channels/recordings don't show captions at all, but the ones that did seemed to work fine.


----------



## telemark (Nov 12, 2013)

Afaik, none of the quick CC methods proposed lets you switch between traditional and digital captions.

If it's true that some content is better in one mode, and other content better in the other mode, I don't see an alternative besides letting the user switch between them as needed.


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

moyekj said:


> For me enabling both standard and digital doesn't help. When both are enabled it looks like TiVo defaults to using standard, and so the premature timeouts still happen just the same as when digital is disabled. As I've mentioned, if I only enable digital then some channels/recordings don't show captions at all, but the ones that did seemed to work fine.


Same here. I had both standard and digital captions on and was seeing the captions end early and other strange stuff.

With only digital captions on the first show I watched worked fine, the next show had no captions at all.


----------



## blacknoi (Jan 23, 2006)

Just found this thread.

Thought my brain was going slow or something as I couldnt read the captions fast enough before they disappeared off the screen.

The worst offender was a Fios commercial, literally all the captions raced through so much that all the captions flashed up during the first half of the commercial and the 2nd half of the commercial, despite there being dialog, there were no captions.

But for the shows themselves, its like everyone said, the caption doesnt stay up long enough for the speaker to finish speaking them.

I hope this is fixed / returned to the way it used to function.


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

ustavio said:


> Between the .6a, .6a RC1 updates (and perhaps Fios ditching Weather Channel......turning on BOTH Standard and Digital captions AND setting everything to DEFAULT has given me fully functional captions on all channels. It also seems to have fixed the issue I (and apparently only I) was having with captions disappearing when coming out of pause in live and recorded shows. No more word salad on Smithsonian either.
> 
> This does not hold up, however, if I try to do a lot of customization. I can get yellow words but too much tinkering seems to confuse the person typing as fast as they can to keep up with all the dialogue.
> 
> Would be interested to see if any still experiencing issues have tried this (or anything else) and found resolution.


Well, ding dang it. The aforementioned seems to work, it also doesn't seem to work when it doesn't want to. It's a sly one, because unless I watch every channel (live or recorded) with captions, all the time day and night, it is easy to miss the occasions when captions rapidly clear....or not. Or when they work at all....or not.

So, I enlisted spouse and children to "beta" test and the overall conclusion is: Captions are broken.

There is no consistency nor rhyme or reason to the behavior of captions whether Standard, Digital or both are selected, whether live or recorded or both, with or without default settings. Fonts can change at a whim regardless of how they are set. I was just watching the History Channel and Captions worked but in LARGE Font and at the TOP of the screen throughout the entire show (not just during credits as they normally would). Basically, at this point it's a "cross your fingers" scenario.

I certainly hope TiVo is working towards a solution.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I don't question your determined beta testing, but oddly, digital captions have been working fine for me every time I turn them on this week (but my testing doesn't approach the level of yours--just casual viewing). With the latest TiVo firmware installed. (But wait, it'll probably blow up on me later today.  )


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Observations, from someone who watches everything with captions:

* The original problem still exists (which I expected, since TiVo hasn't had a chance to fix it yet), but only on analog captions. On some networks, it's worse than others. On CBS, for example, they don't disappear _quite _as quickly as FX. But almost every lengthy caption disappears before it should.

* On digital captions, the problem completely goes away. Captions display as they should, in the proper place, for the proper length of time, yada yada. However...

* Not every show has digicaps. I've only run into one so far that did not (Dig on USA), but I just started using digicaps this week, and it's been a slow TV week. I switch to analog when this happens, and then switch back after it's over.

* I've only had one show that had problems with the proper display of digicaps, and it was (oddly) the first show I watched upon trying digicaps. Which of course made me think digicaps were still screwed up. But no other program has had any issues since. It switched a few times between a normal font, and some weird, very large courier-looking font. But no problems since.

* My weird ABC delayed caption problem is definitely solved by using digicaps. Watched a few more shows, and it is fixed.

* As has been noted, you should either turn on analog, or digicaps, but not both. That has the effect of letting analog override digi.

Us caption users have commented over the years about how nice it would be to have a single toggle button to turn captions on or off. I know it's possible, because wmcbrine's PyTiVo can do it. Should TiVo decide to do it, it would be nice to make it toggle: Off/Analog/Digital/Off.

As far as the convoluted means necessary to get to captions (telemark), I don't have a problem with it. One shouldn't have to dig that deep very often. Turning them off & on is all a user normally does. Except for now, of course.

Bottom line: Other than the fact a few shows seem to be missing digicaps, I have no problem using them as the answer to this issue. However, I would still like to see analog fixed, as there may be more shows that don't have digicaps, as time may tell.

[Aside: why would some shows NOT have digicaps? Who decides this?]


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

Now everything is in Chinese  Just kidding  Guess I'll stick with Digicaps for the time being. So far USA and SyFy both need a toggle. Sure I'll find others. There is, apparently, no customization with Digi. What you see is what you get (or vice versa). Captions across the top on some programs are annoying but at least no word salad. 

As for who or what determines the lack of captions at times, it's anyone's guess. Perhaps the typist is out on a smoke break 

Now, on to other vexing issues of the day.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

DeltaOne said:


> Same here. I had both standard and digital captions on and was seeing the captions end early and other strange stuff.
> 
> With only digital captions on the first show I watched worked fine, the next show had no captions at all.


Digital captions never worked reliably which is why I think TiVo switched to using standard captions by default if both are enabled as only one can really be used at a time.

The settings screen really is misleading. It really should have a three way toggle for captions: standard, digital or off. Technically there's 4 values: standard 1, standard 2, digital 1 and digital 2, but the second caption "channels" are almost never used.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

morac said:


> Digital captions never worked reliably which is why I think TiVo switched to using standard captions by default if both are enabled as only one can really be used at a time.
> 
> The settings screen really is misleading. It really should have a three way toggle for captions: standard, digital or off. Technically there's 4 values: standard 1, standard 2, digital 1 and digital 2, but the second caption "channels" are almost never used.


I'm not at my box right now, but aren't there something like 4 standard caption channels and 4 digital caption channels (or is it 8 of each?)--I guess for room for growth?


----------



## DeltaOne (Sep 29, 2013)

morac said:


> Digital captions never worked reliably which is why I think TiVo switched to using standard captions by default if both are enabled as only one can really be used at a time.


Good info, thanks.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> I'm not at my box right now, but aren't there something like 4 standard caption channels and 4 digital caption channels (or is it 8 of each?)--I guess for room for growth?


Actually you're right. I forgot those already exist since as I wrote, virtually no one uses the 2 to 4 caption channels. I think 2 might be used sometimes for Spanish.

That makes things simple. The closed captions should be off, standard or digital. Of course that would make it not a toggle switch anymore.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I've often wondered about those extra caption channels and why they aren't being used. Would be very interesting to see them used, on popular shows that will spring for the expense, for commentary or other annotation, similar to a DVD "extra." Or they also could be used for extra exposition of the story. Or, hey, if the show wants to monetize matters, they could be used to try to hawk items shown on the show--just imagine how this could be done in "Sex in the City" episodes (at least, in the original showing days).


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Got 20.4.7 today on my Roamio Pro and unfortunately can confirm it does NOT fix this problem.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into Margret's response, but I get the impression TiVo may be thinking that digital captions are good enough (despite clear evidence presented in this thread to the contrary) and so fixing standard captions is not on priority fix list.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

moyekj said:


> Got 20.4.7 today on my Roamio Pro and unfortunately can confirm it does NOT fix this problem.
> Perhaps I'm reading too much into Margret's response, but I get the impression TiVo may be thinking that digital captions are good enough (despite clear evidence presented in this thread to the contrary) and so fixing standard captions is not on priority fix list.


Actually, the digital fix is in one way, even worse. While it does fix the problem of the vanishing captions, that's only for shows that are digitally encoded. I'm finding about 25% of my shows aren't, which means having to go to settings and switch analog back on. Then reverse it again afterwards. A real PITA.


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

astrohip said:


> Actually, the digital fix is in one way, even worse. While it does fix the problem of the vanishing captions, that's only for shows that are digitally encoded. I'm finding about 25% of my shows aren't, which means having to go to settings and switch analog back on. Then reverse it again afterwards. A real PITA.


Agreed. Real PITA and completely unacceptable. It would help to known if the issue is with TiVo, specific cable providers, channels or individual shows. I have Fios which is "supposed" to be all digitally encoded (even analog channels) but, for example, SyFy only works with analog captions. It's very frustrating for those of us who need the captions. Didn't the FCC mandate functional captions?


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

ustavio said:


> Agreed. Real PITA and completely unacceptable. It would help to known if the issue is with TiVo, specific cable providers, channels or individual shows. I have Fios which is "supposed" to be all digitally encoded (even analog channels) but, for example, SyFy only works with analog captions. It's very frustrating for those of us who need the captions. Didn't the FCC mandate functional captions?


The issue is with TiVo. I also have DirecTV, and have a TV set up on straight pass-through antenna feed. Neither of them have the problem. And it clearly started with 20.4.6; there was no issue before, so something caused it.

It appears to be channel agnostic. Doesn't matter what I'm watching, if the caption appears long enough, it will vanish too quickly. And several of my most popular channels don't have digital caption feeds (USA, SyFy, etc), which means (1) the PITA of flipping caption methods, and (2) the captions vanish again.

Yes, the FCC does mandate not only captions, but functional captions. Which is why I have confidence TiVo is working on this. I would love to hear from Margret that this is a WIP, just for confirmation.


----------



## joblo (Jun 5, 2002)

astrohip said:


> 20.4.6 has introduced a problem with the display of closed captions.
> ...
> I tested it by watching the same show on a 20.4.5 Premiere.


Did this problem show up on the Premiere when it upgraded?

I haven't noticed any new CC issues on my Premieres since the 20.4.6 upgrade.

But I think I use captions more with Netflix and S3s than Premieres, so maybe I haven't been affected or just haven't noticed.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

joblo said:


> Did this problem show up on the Premiere when it upgraded?
> 
> I haven't noticed any new CC issues on my Premieres since the 20.4.6 upgrade.
> 
> But I think I use captions more with Netflix and S3s than Premieres, so maybe I haven't been affected or just haven't noticed.


Yes, my Premiere exhibited the same quick caption problem when it upgraded to 20.4.6.


----------



## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

astrohip said:


> And several of my most popular channels don't have digital caption feeds (USA, SyFy, etc), which means (1) the PITA of flipping caption methods, and (2) the captions vanish again.


Anybody compile a list of channels that don't have digital captions?

I have to use analog captions for SyFy and USA, too, as there are no digital captions, but as noted they drop out fast on my Roamio v20.4.7a. I am not sure if there are other channels. My workaround is to watch SyFy and USA shows on my TiVoHD which has old v11.0m software and will probably never see an update.


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

astrohip said:


> The issue is with TiVo. I also have DirecTV, and have a TV set up on straight pass-through antenna feed. Neither of them have the problem. And it clearly started with 20.4.6; there was no issue before, so something caused it.
> 
> It appears to be channel agnostic. Doesn't matter what I'm watching, if the caption appears long enough, it will vanish too quickly. And several of my most popular channels don't have digital caption feeds (USA, SyFy, etc), which means (1) the PITA of flipping caption methods, and (2) the captions vanish again.
> 
> Yes, the FCC does mandate not only captions, but functional captions. Which is why I have confidence TiVo is working on this. I would love to hear from Margret that this is a WIP, just for confirmation.


This continues to be an ongoing issue.and no indication that it is being addressed. There are just enough channels that require multiple steps to switch back and forth that it is maddening. I also find that if I pause live or recorded shows it is often necessary to rewind when unpausing because captions disappear completely.

Perhaps it's time to contact the FCC.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

FYI, based on a reliable source I'm told this issue is resolved in an upcoming software update. Issue has been around far too long already so I hope it is indeed the case and that we don't have to wait too long for next release.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ustavio--I've held back on saying anything as the next release (.8?) will be the first chance TiVo has had to really address this. I wanted to give them every chance to work on this properly. 

.7 was already in the pipeline when this was discovered, and .8 has been a WIP for a while, so let's see what that brings.


----------



## ustavio (Oct 19, 2013)

astrohip said:


> Ustavio--I've held back on saying anything as the next release (.8?) will be the first chance TiVo has had to really address this. I wanted to give them every chance to work on this properly.
> 
> .7 was already in the pipeline when this was discovered, and .8 has been a WIP for a while, so let's see what that brings.


Copy that. I'm more patient than most , especially if I know for certain an issue is being addressed. I don't, however, know for certain that this is even on their radar. The only response I recall was to use digital captions, which didn't really resolve the multiple issues. However, for now..."wait and see before FCC" (see what I did there?)


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10568101#post10568101


TiVoMargret said:


> Fixed an issue where lengthy Closed Captions were disappearing more quickly than they should


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

moyekj--Thanks for posting this and letting us know.

Margret--Thanks for getting this fixed.

:up::up:


----------

