# This Needs to be done!!!!



## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

For every 1 person on this forum that is aware of what is going on there is perhaps hundreds who right now are calling D* and are being bamboozeled into giving up their directivo for a r15 because they 1. Dont know about this forum 2. are internet challenged 3. tech challenged. Their directivo keeps rebooting so the call directv. First line support tells them clear and delete everything. 2 days later reboot again a second call to Directv "Dont worry we will send you a new machine w free shipping even better than a tivo"

I started a thread that got me lots of laughs and scoffs about buying or starting a new company. (what ever) I know it is a pipe dream and i will keep my 1000. however I am going to take out an inexpensive local newspaper add saying "Is your DirectiVo rebooting Go here and i will put the link to this forum. This is the only way to reach the masses being fooled into giving up their directivo for a r15. We need to flood the media all over america to let the layman know the rebooting is being caused by D* and be patient and to Know what they will get in replacement is not a Tivo.


If I get few responses to this I will know the thousands on this forum could care less about directivo and will just give up out of frustration. But if you really care about directivo and would even like to see D* go back give this thread some serious thought.


Later all 

Btw no reboot still since 1/3 11:00 pm but i am due real soon


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

I said this was DTVs master plan right after it started. I can imagine how many "happy" customers there are out there who are right now thinking 'man that DTV is great. I had a problem with my tivo and they upgraded me to their top of the line dvr for free". I bet its happening quite a bit too.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Lookout, black helicopters......


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Lookout, black helicopters......


considering I just got off the phone with them and was immediately offered an R15 because its the newest and greatest and it doesn't have this problem I'd say those helicopters are flying right out in the open and landing in peoples yards.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

Right now everyone that is having a problem should call or email DirecTV. I agree that those who are unaware that the R15 isn't a TiVo needs to be informed.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

ROTFLMAO.

Seriously, you're saying there was a meeting somewhere and someone decided to put the DirecTivo's into an unusable state in order to send you a free R15? Is that right?

Why would they not just simply declare that they won't support the other any longer and send out free replacements if this is what they desire? Why does there need to be a conspiracy if this is what they want?

Be careful, those black ops guys know EVERYTHING about you......


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

And how exactly are you expecting a local newspaper ad to reach thousands or millions of DTV subscribers all over the country?


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> ROTFLMAO.
> 
> Seriously, you're saying there was a meeting somewhere


I don't really know if the left hand knows where the right hand is when it comes to Directv. So I don't think the latest issues (rebooting, guide data, OTA channel mappings screwed up, etc) are part of a great conspiracy because I don't think Directv communicates very well within their own corporation to be able to setup something like this. They really need to look into ITIL.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Seriously, you're saying there was a meeting somewhere and someone decided to put the DirecTivo's into an unusable state in order to send you a free R15? Is that right?


I don't infer that from any of the above posts, but perhaps there is some truth to the "Oh, it's just the old Tivo boxes - let's use this opportunity to diminish their count and increase the R15/HR20 count"... DirecTVs response has hardly been encouraging.

Some DTivo users may be considering unburdening DirecTV of dual pain of having to put up with a DTivo user _and_ processing a monthly payment from them.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

petersweston said:


> I started a thread that got me lots of laughs and scoffs about buying or starting a new company. (what ever) I know it is a pipe dream and i will keep my 1000. however I am going to take out an inexpensive local newspaper add saying "Is your DirectiVo rebooting Go here and i will put the link to this forum.


Here's a thought. Since you've got $1000 burning a hole in your pocket, you should really support TiVo and invest it in a S3 and 3 year prepay. Instead of worrying about the choices others make for their DVRs, you'll be making a statement as to how much you support the TiVo platform.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

All I know of what is going on, is that DirecTV has notified TiVo of the issues that have been reported. And TiVo is investigating on what is causing it.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

goony said:


> Some DTivo users may be considering unburdening DirecTV of dual pain of having to put up with a DTivo user _and_ processing a monthly payment from them.


I wouldn't blame them, that behavior just would not work for me at all.


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

bidger said:


> Here's a thought. Since you've got $1000 burning a hole in your pocket, you should really support TiVo and invest it in a S3 and 3 year prepay. Instead of worrying about the choices others make for their DVRs, you'll be making a statement as to how much you support the TiVo platform.


I cant get cable. Any other questions? Can A S3 work with D*?


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> All I know of what is going on, is that DirecTV has notified TiVo of the issues that have been reported. And TiVo is investigating on what is causing it.


Earl I know you like the r15 as well as the directivo. I hope the issue gets solved before half of the directivo owners who dont come here have r15 (Because the more r15's and the less tivos out there the less chance thnat we will ever see a S/3 directivo) I realise you are on the fence with this one but many of us are not and on the side of Directivos. With this liberty buy out we started to have hope again. Now hope is fading slowly into the sunset


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

David Platt said:


> And how exactly are you expecting a local newspaper ad to reach thousands or millions of DTV subscribers all over the country?


Because this forum spans all of america  Not just my local w is all of s flas


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

Billy66 said:


> I wouldn't blame them, that behavior just would not work for me at all.


 Billy I am not saying it is a conspiracy but it is hurting any chance at all of D* Resignig and developing a new directivo. Since you are so down on this thread . HMMMM!! Directv employee (who knows perhaps you can say no but i can say i am the owner of the dolphins or am a bum living on the street w only my laptop) Like i said in the op If you are down on this thread you are down on directivo (Not Tivo mind you Directivo which in my opinion will be superior to R15 no matter what they do to it. They can update the thing for 10 years)


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Hey petersweston,

I'm not a DTV employee. I manage a department of 30 Mortgage Bankers. I wish I owned the Dolphins so I could be certain they would lose to my Buffalo Bills twice per year. 

I'm not down on the thread, I seriously thought you all were pushing a conspiracy theory, that doesn't seem to be it.

Anyway, the most informed word in this thread has TiVo in charge of working on this problem.


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## bjstewa (Nov 25, 2006)

petersweston said:


> For every 1 person on this forum that is aware of what is going on there is perhaps hundreds who right now are calling D* and are being bamboozeled into giving up their directivo for a r15 because they 1. Dont know about this forum 2. are internet challenged 3. tech challenged. Their directivo keeps rebooting so the call directv. First line support tells them clear and delete everything. 2 days later reboot again a second call to Directv "Dont worry we will send you a new machine w free shipping even better than a tivo"


This is basically what happened to me, although I was the one who thought my hard drive was going because me DTivo is about 5 years old. The only problem with the theory is that after I got my R15, I hated it so much I became even more attached to the Tivos. Not only is the interface terrible on the R15, but it was way more buggy than my screwed up HDVR2.

I had always liked D*, but I am ready to leave them now if they don't get things fixed soon. If they would have just acknowledged the problem right away and notified me, I'd be much less PO'd and a whole lot more patient right now.


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## mwarner (Dec 12, 2000)

bjstewa said:


> If they would have just acknowledged the problem right away and notified me, I'd be much less PO'd and a whole lot more patient right now.


You're right on the target there. A quick message on the TiVo's inbox which states, "We know there is a problem. We're working on it." Then, maybe, a weekly update or something. Most people are patient if we know something is being worked on. With no official information from DirecTV, it is hard not to get disillusioned.

-Matt


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

mwarner said:


> You're right on the target there. A quick message on the TiVo's inbox which states, "We know there is a problem. We're working on it." Then, maybe, a weekly update or something. Most people are patient if we know something is being worked on. With no official information from DirecTV, it is hard not to get disillusioned.
> 
> -Matt


You're kidding. Your post makes the assumption that people actually read the inbox messages on their Tivos 

I haven't seen a single reboot on either of my DTivo boxes. Both are hacked, but they still use the same guide data that all use.


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## crkeehn (Mar 1, 2005)

Dkerr24 said:


> You're kidding. Your post makes the assumption that people actually read the inbox messages on their Tivos
> 
> I haven't seen a single reboot on either of my DTivo boxes. Both are hacked, but they still use the same guide data that all use.


and I have seen at least two on my unhacked unit, the most recent this morning. That is discounting the numerous ones I haven't seen but deduced by the resetting of the 30 second skip. There is definitely a problem out there, impacting a number of us DirecTivo users, more than could be explained by failing units.


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

Hmm, highly suspicious. My TIVO rebooted itself at 7:30 central time, right at the start of the BCS game.


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## petersweston (Nov 2, 2006)

Dkerr24 said:


> You're kidding. Your post makes the assumption that people actually read the inbox messages on their Tivos
> 
> I haven't seen a single reboot on either of my DTivo boxes. Both are hacked, but they still use the same guide data that all use.


 I think you are wrong about no one reads the messages If it were a message that gets in your face like I have seen on many occasions it would be read. They Bug the crap out of us with BS messages but not when its important!!  Thats D* for ya!!

How many times does a message reminder come up the second you hit your D* menue before it goes to the menu I have seen 7 to 10 different ones over the years. Some stupid advertising message dont forget the activate your dvr service and the no phone ones. When i put my account in hibernation over the summer since i wasnt recording any new stuff EVERY time i went into my D* menu after not for a while right in my face ACTIVATE YOUR DVR SERVICE. Than after i clik ok the little message envelope appears.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

If you email DirecTV about this problem, include these links in your message. Maybe, they will get the message.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=332166
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=335134
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=334572
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=334855
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=333326
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=335175
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=335063
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=334935

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73289
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=75313
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73793

Don't cut and paste the above because the links have been abbreviated and won't be correct.
Use the links as shown below. 

```
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=332166
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=335134
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=334572
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=334855
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=333326
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=335175
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=335063
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=334935

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73289
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=75313
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73793
```


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

JimSpence said:


> If you email DirecTV about this problem, include these links in your message. Maybe, they will get the message.


DirecTV knows about the problem... and they have already gotten the message.
And they have turned to the people that can help them identify the issue, so it can be fixed..


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I E-mailed directv last week about acknowledging a problem so people wouldn't be constantly calling(I was waiting on the phone for 40 minutes a few days ago trying to talk to someone about a dirfferent problem). 
They E-mailed me back that they are aware of the problem and are working on it but have no idea how long it will take. Not a word about contacting all their Tivo customers. Very strange.


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

>Not a word about contacting all their Tivo customers

I don't think there is any grand conspiracy, but sending a general message admitting there is a problem would then reduce their opportunity to convince callers it is a DTivo problem... which would be fixed by sending out an R15 replacement


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

I can't wait until AT&T (SBC) lines up with TIVO.


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## theoz49 (Jan 10, 2007)

I, too have the rebooting problem. I called 'em and they said they never heard of it, but they would send me "free of charge" a new DVR. I thought "great"! Until I saw the unit(an R-15). I would have to completely retrain my wife (not easy to do...) and then I found this forum. So I called 'em and they're going to send me a prepaid mailer to send it back. I figure if enough of us do that, they'll get the message. It's got to be expensive to ship them things in two directions. Can you imagine if they're sending thousands of DVR's back and forth at their expense? FedEx will love it!


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## John T Smith (Jun 17, 2004)

I just sent an email to the editor of http://www.skyreport.com/ with a bunch of links to several of the message threads here

If anyone knows how to contact other news organizations... I think it is time to bring this issue out to anyone/everyone who might make a public report, to put more pressure on DirecTv to apply the resources to get this problem fixed

Added... also sent emails to CNN and Cavuto (business reports) at Foxnews


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> DirecTV knows about the problem... and they have already gotten the message.
> And they have turned to the people that can help them identify the issue, so it can be fixed..


Okay, so DirecTV knows about the problem. As noted, they need to let their customers know that they know about the problem. And thanks Earl for your diligence with keeping up on this.


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## cinderella (Jan 10, 2007)

If they were to tell people the truth, those people who aren't under contract would be able to leave. the way they are doing it, they are trapping unknowing people into another contract and making money off those who try it and don't like it with cancellation fees.
I don't see how it can be anything but a conspiracy. They are blatantly lying to their customers, and also messing up any equipment that isn't theirs. 
They day I bought my r15 I called, and they said "Oh well, your stuck with it now, but we'd be happy to cancel your service.." followed by a list of fees.
Then after the beginning of the year our directivo started having the same problems just like everyone elses. It was upgraded over the phone and now it's suddenly unable to do season passes right and all that like the other one.
I've seen posts where techs came into houses, replaced the directivo with the r15 and activated it without even asking the owner, and took the old tivo with them. When they asked for it back they said it was gone now. 
I agree with getting the word out, I've been emailing around to and posting anywhere other dtv customers can see. My sister just went to an electronics store about the problems that started with hers and they told her the differences in the r15, about the bugs, and that she probably didn't really need to replace the one she had. He's a dtv customer and didn't want to see her get rooked like he did. She's past her contract so she's giving them one month to fix things and then changing to dish.
I can even pretend I'm psychic---"your directivo will quit working properly and when you call they will want you to get the new one" except I think I'm too late for that, I can't find anyone with one that still works.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

My days here in this forum... are dwindingly...

Seriously...

If you think a multi-billion dollar has to resort to "extreme" consipiracy theory tactics to keep customers...

Please....

As for letting their customers know...

What are they supposed to do? Send a global broadcast message, to everyone... including all those that are NOT having a problem...

That would do more damage then good... as that will then give all those people, who don't truely have a genuine problem... a "hook" an "angle" to start asking for credits, reason to brake their contract, or get a new receiver.

Ahh well... I guess that is what it has come to.

If you don't like the R15's Interface...
Time to pack up ship... if you are ever considering getting any of the new offerings from DirecTV this year.... TiVo is *NOT* comming back into the fold.

Interactive is *NOT* comming to the DTivo platform
MPEG-4 SAT *NOT* comming to the DTivo platform
Networking is *NOT* comming to the DTivo platform (native)

If you don't like the GUI..... that *IS* their GUI for all their products now, and for the forseable future.

As for the current issues... Guess the TiVo software wasn't as "perfect" as everyone wants it to be... as for what ever reason it is now having issues... Regardless if it is because of the guide data changes or not... it should have been "mature" enough to handle the issues.
(aka... i repeating the same crap I see when people attack the issues with the R15/HR20... it should be good enough to handle bad data).

Maybe it has been a long 48 hours... of reading multiple consipracy theories...
If you honestly... truely think, that is what DirecTV is doing.... call your lawyer... pony up the retainer... and get things moving...

If you really think DirecTV would risk their entire business... and deliberately piss off 2+ million customers.... you know diddly about the buisness world. It would take them a decade to recover all the costs involved with the fall out from that, if they ever could recover from it.

If they wanted to deactivated the DTivo receivers... it would be very simple

On "This Date", the DTiVo series will be deactivated. 
You need to change to the DVR+ System (Which they would probably do for free), or other non-DVR receiver (Which they would probably do for free)... or your service will stop working.

Very simple... they don't need to resort to backdoor, hack style methods, that would only lead to legal issues.

They still have a carraige contract with TiVo... I think till 2011... don't cha think, that a deliberate "sabatoge" of the system... would violate something there?

For multiple years I was a TiVovangilist... still am if the circumstances are right... as TiVo, Inc's products is still a good product. But damm... It is just a tool to enjoy TV programming....

I need a beer....


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

Damn Earl I pray to God the Bears win this weekend or I am afraid you might just lose it for good :-D


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Markman07 said:


> Damn Earl I pray to God the Bears win this weekend or I am afraid you might just lose it for good :-D


In a lot more ways then one... I have a 95% chance of being able to attend the SuperBowl this year.

As for that above.... that was mild... When I lose it.... there will be no question, as it will probably result in being banned..


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Sure Earl, keep drinking that "beer" that DTV uses to keep you brainwashed.

Chase Carey has done NOTHING else but follow progress on the master plan to "sneak" a different DVR to unsuspecting customers. In fact I believe it was part of the deal with Liberty, that they HAVE TO make everything difficult on anyone that uses a DirecTv Receiver with TiVo.

This conspiracy reaches every installer and phone monkey they have. I understand that TiVo presented a solution to them and Carey threatened to sue tiVo unless they modified the software NOT to work anymore. Carey said something like "They've been clamoring for 6.x software, let's really give it to them." Then there was a monstrous laugh that vibrated most dishes within a 1/2 mile radius enough to lose their sat signal.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I think DirecTV should at the very least acknowledge that there is a problem on their website.

I for one, will continue as a DirecTV customer as TWC here isn't an option for me.

However, if TWC should get a TiVo based DVR like Comcast's then you never know.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

DirecTV is not the company it used to be. That's why I'm not a customer anymore. I also think Murdock is trying to stick it to Malone by leaving DirecTV to him in even worse shape. It really is sad but you have choices. I believe someone above speaking on behalf of DirecTV basically said to all the sickening TiVo people to get lost, we don't care, drop dead. So what are you waiting for? Leave! I really like cable again with my Series3's.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

I think mtchamp is right, and don't take this as me saying "if you don't like it go", but when a relationship degrades to the point where one party feels the other would conspire to hurt them, it might be time to pull the plug. I know some can't, and most don't for other reasons, but this conspiracy thing is not a sign of a healthy relationship on either side.


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## Jabberer (Oct 4, 2000)

ebonovic said:


> When I lose it.... there will be no question, as it will probably result in being banned..


Heh. Well, Earl, I've always tried to live by this quote from John Wayne, and it sounds like you do too:

"I've always followed my father's advice: He told me, first, to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to."


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Earl - I have had the utmost respect for you for the past several years, but I disagree with your entire position here...



ebonovic said:


> As for letting their customers know...
> What are they supposed to do? Send a global broadcast message, to everyone... including all those that are NOT having a problem...
> 
> That would do more damage then good... as that will then give all those people, who don't truely have a genuine problem... a "hook" an "angle" to start asking for credits, reason to brake their contract, or get a new receiver.


Earl, DirecTV can send a receiver message to only those customers who have DirecTiVo's. IF (and it is still an IF) there are a massive number of DirecTiVo's that fail to record "24" or "Idol", then that call volume will utterly swamp the Customer Service lines and lead to an even worse PR nightmare WHEN (and this is not an IF) the media reports that this problem was first reported to the company a month ago. As far as we can tell today (and there is not indication DirecTV has an idea how to fix the problem), ALL DirecTV boxes running the TiVo software are at risk.



ebonovic said:


> As for the current issues... Guess the TiVo software wasn't as "perfect" as everyone wants it to be... as for what ever reason it is now having issues... Regardless if it is because of the guide data changes or not... it should have been "mature" enough to handle the issues.
> (aka... i repeating the same crap I see when people attack the issues with the R15/HR20... it should be good enough to handle bad data).


Now, here is the rub. TiVo's name is still on most of those boxes, so they will have their reputation tarnished with DirecTV's bungling of this issue. TiVo's software worked until (as far as we can tell from the user perspectives) something changed. This is NOT a S/W release gone bad. And if it is the result of a change that was totally under DirecTV's control (as suspicion indicates based upon the information available), then DirecTV COULD be in contractual or legal jeopardy since there have been eports that the CSR's have pinned blame on Tivo, not DirecTV. That is a bad faith move on DirecTV's part. Additionally, if the issue has been triggered by a change to the guide data, and that change was not communicated to TiVo for analysis and certification that it would not cause a problem, then TiVo may not have a legal duty to fix it under the terms of the current contract. In other words, they can (and should if my theory is correct) demand DirecTV pay for the fix. Knowing DirecTV, they may not want to, and that is the reason this issue has been in the wild for almost a month...



ebonovic said:


> If you really think DirecTV would risk their entire business... and deliberately piss off 2+ million customers.... you know diddly about the buisness world. It would take them a decade to recover all the costs involved with the fall out from that, if they ever could recover from it.


Deliberately? No. Not being aware how bad this thing is becoming, yes. I liken DirecTV's response to the ostrich, bury it's head in the sand and hope it goes away...



ebonovic said:


> They still have a carraige contract with TiVo... I think till 2011... don't cha think, that a deliberate "sabatoge" of the system... would violate something there?


And that may be the reason that a CRITICAL flaw in the service has not been addressed for a month. Perhaps TiVo was not required to fix problems caused by DirecTV's changes...



ebonovic said:


> For multiple years I was a TiVovangilist... still am if the circumstances are right... as TiVo, Inc's products is still a good product. But damm... It is just a tool to enjoy TV programming....


Yes, it is just a tool, that people pay a monthly service fee for. They are entitled to the expectation that the service will work as it has in the past. All the subscribers want ti the functionality THAT THEY ARE PAYING FOR...


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Billy66 said:


> Lookout, black helicopters......


A person can be *Paranoid*, but that doesn't mean that they can't also be *Perceptive*. 

I actually don't believe that DirecTV is planning on replacing MILLIONS of Series 2 DirecTiVos, but there is a possibility that they might what to get rid of thousands of R15s that are collecting dust. 

It is more likely that DirecTV is just a bubbling idiot of a company with nobody in charge or maybe they just plain don't care.

_*Is anyone RUNNING THE COMPANY?*_


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> A person can be *Paranoid*, but that doesn't mean that they can't also be *Perceptive*.
> 
> I actually don't believe that DirecTV is planning on replacing MILLIONS of Series 2 DirecTiVos, but there is a possibility that they might what to get rid of thousands of R15s that are collecting dust.


Honestly, I've considered some of that. I don't think the R15 is their long range plan by any means. They appear to have directed all of their development into the HR20. I can't see why they would support an SD and HD version when the HR20 would do it for both. That would leave them with inventory and a need to take care of that.

Still, this is Paranoia in this thread. Almost laughable.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Earl, DirecTV can send a receiver message to only those customers who have DirecTiVo's. IF (and it is still an IF) there are a massive number of DirecTiVo's that fail to record "24" or "Idol", then that call volume will utterly swamp the Customer Service lines and lead to an even worse PR nightmare WHEN (and this is not an IF) the media reports that this problem was first reported to the company a month ago. As far as we can tell today (and there is not indication DirecTV has an idea how to fix the problem), ALL DirecTV boxes running the TiVo software are at risk.
> 
> .....
> 
> Now, here is the rub. TiVo's name is still on most of those boxes, so they will have their reputation tarnished with DirecTV's bungling of this issue. TiVo's software worked until (as far as we can tell from the user perspectives) something changed. This is NOT a S/W release gone bad. And if it is the result of a change that was totally under DirecTV's control (as suspicion indicates based upon the information available), then DirecTV COULD be in contractual or legal jeopardy since there have been eports that the CSR's have pinned blame on Tivo, not DirecTV. That is a bad faith move on DirecTV's part. Additionally, if the issue has been triggered by a change to the guide data, and that change was not communicated to TiVo for analysis and certification that it would not cause a problem, then TiVo may not have a legal duty to fix it under the terms of the current contract. In other words, they can (and should if my theory is correct) demand DirecTV pay for the fix. Knowing DirecTV, they may not want to, and that is the reason this issue has been in the wild for almost a month...


But what if it isn't anything DirecTV did?

Aka... why are people with non DTiVos (including Series 3's) having similar issues?
As my brother in-laws S1-SA unit has been messing up in similar fashion... And his is piggied onto DishNetwork. It got so screwy, TiVo recommend that he should buy a new Series 2DT

Basically... DirecTV has turned it to TiVo, Inc... to find what is wrong... 
As from the piece they have access to... they have not identified a problem.


----------



## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

I bet it is caused by El Nino


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> But what if it isn't anything DirecTV did?


DirecTV may or may not be responsible for the recording snafus. TiVo may or may not be responsible for the recording snafus. It doesn't matter. We pay DirecTV for the service, and it is DirecTV's obligation to report to its users the issues which will affect its customers' use of the service being paid for.

This situation has been going on since at least 12/18, and warrants PCTM messages be sent to inform customers of the problem, or at the least a message sent to each TiVo DirecTV receiver's inbox.

And now for something bizarre regarding DirecTV keeping their customers informed. This was posted in the "Seaso Pass Problem" thread in the HD Forum:


Dan_Shane said:


> Well, here's a cute story. I fired up my HR10-250 this morning and checked for which of my shows would not be recorded today. Before I got that far I was greeted with a notice that I had a message waiting for me from DirecTV.
> 
> Selecting that option revealed that the subject of the message was Season Passes on my TiVo. Could it be that D* had been paying attention to this thread and was heeding the advice in an earlier post recommending a message to all subscribers that there are ongoing problems with the Season Pass feature? Was D* actually listening to their customers?
> 
> ...


What's up with that? If it's true, all I can say is:


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## SCVDon (Jan 8, 2007)

ebonovic said:


> My days here in this forum... are dwindingly...
> 
> Seriously...
> 
> ...


I don't understand the pleasure derived from others having problems with their DTV service. I don't understand the love affair with DTV's R15. Got a stick in that fire? Worked on the software? If not, then pretty lame to blame Tivo for guide information that was working before it changed.

Someone rewrote the incoming information in some unknown manner causing it to stop DTivo's from working. Sounds more like DOS attack, IMHO - wonder if California law on DOS attacks applies to satellite TV?

As far as taking a hike, I'm just hanging on until FiOS fiber is available. Don't know if Tivo will be there, but it they are, I'll have one. If not then I'll be building a Media computer.

Plus make believe DVR's may not be around in full function much longer if Tivo continues to win in court for patent violations. Most likely a reason DTV renewed their contact with Tivo. Wonder how R15 owners would feel if DTV was ordered to turn off all Tivo patented features like Dish was ordered to do in count.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> My days here in this forum... are dwindingly...
> 
> Seriously...
> 
> ...


Earl,

Calm down, Kid'o, DirecTV isn't worth having a STROKE over.

I agree you NEED A BEER, maybe even a COUPLE.


----------



## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

boy, the forum is getting moody lately. telling folks to take a hike because they are having issues that just recently started after years of flawless operation is not cool.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

ebonovic said:


> Regardless if it is because of the guide data changes or not... it should have been "mature" enough to handle the issues.


Yea, and my car should be "mature enough" to handle a change in format of the road surface when I leave the highway and drive into the ocean, or be "mature enough" to handle the change of format when I fill the tank with diesel instead of gasoline.

Both of the above are _possible_ but few would buy this wonder auto as it would cost a small fortune - as would a Tivo DVR that could just magically "handle" a change in guide data format.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

goony said:


> Yea, and my car should be "mature enough" to handle a change in format of the road surface when I leave the highway and drive into the ocean, or be "mature enough" to handle the change of format when I fill the tank with diesel instead of gasoline.
> 
> Both of the above are _possible_ but few would buy this wonder auto as it would cost a small fortune - as would a Tivo DVR that could just magically "handle" a change in guide data format.


Kinda nice of you to unquote the one line, that explained why I said that.

To re-iterrate... that line, is the same line we have heard time and time again in the discussions about the DVR+ series... If it is the guide data, or the data stream... it should be mature enough to handle it....

Hence... the line I wrote (and the one you quoted)... was a jab right back and those same people that wrote the same thing prior.

And again... do you seriously think....... yes... do you seriously think, that a multi-billion dollar, publicly traded company would have to resort to "sabatog" the DTiVo? A system that has been "made" in a year (or longer)...

A unit that already has a relative "lifespan" on it, given the hard drive... and the lack of MPEG-4...

A unit that as so many people have pointed out... is only costing them $1 per month, per subscriber account...

Do you honestly... seriously think, this was a deliberate attempt... and they are deliberately continuing to drag it out....

Does DirecTV have an obligation to their customers... hell yes.... 
One of the problems with it starting when it did.... two weeks of holiday vacations, followed by the largest consumer electronic show of the year...

But hey... everyone is allowed their own opinion...


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> It is just a tool to enjoy TV programming....


Truer words have never been spoken


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

> Kinda nice of you to unquote the one line, that explained why I said that.


I had intended to remove your name/attribution (so it would look like this) but I failed to do so.


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## bjstewa (Nov 25, 2006)

ebonovic said:


> And again... do you seriously think....... yes... do you seriously think, that a multi-billion dollar, publicly traded company would have to resort to "sabatog" the DTiVo? A system that has been "made" in a year (or longer)...


No, I don't think they intentionally sabotaged the DTivos, but I do think they have had an ugly passive-aggressive attitude about the issues the DTivo owners have been having. I called with the first signs of this almost a month ago.

Obviously lots of people are having the same issues, but rather than admitting they were having some problems, D* simply denied that there were any issues on their end and quickly offered to send me (and lots of other people) their R15.

BTW, I took one - because it was free - and it is a complete POS. I hadn't read anything about it beforehand so I came to that conclusion on my own.

I don't care about MPEG4 or any of the other stuff you listed. I do, however, expect to get a normal life expectency from the units I own - and I do mean own, not lease. D* has proven to be as inept from a PR standpoint as they have been from a technological standpoint WRT these DTivo problems.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

*ebonovic*, I don't think it is conspiracy as much as apathy and not understanding a minority portion of their DVR customer base - the Tivo lover.

DirecTV just didn't "get it" when they made the decision to abandon the Tivos and go with the NDS-based units. They might have figured Joe Sixpack doesn't care if it's a Tivo or not - to him it's just like a VCR that he doesn't have to feed tapes into and that infernal blinking 00:00 is gone. If there were any "Tivo fans" there probably weren't that many of them anyway, right?

So, when most of the Tivo-based units start having issues the initial reaction may have been "Well, here is a fine opportunity to get rid of those old Tivo boxes that we don't really want to have around anymore anyway - we can send out an R15 or HR20 to replace them and Joe Sixpack will be happy." Also, initially, CSRs were probably not aware of the widespread issue nor the Tivo loyalty and simply did what they did when an R15 or HR20 was having an issue - offer to replace the DVR.

I don't think DirecTV ever thought that an issue would arise in the Tivo software that would affect so many units... thus, they are struggling (or not struggling, depending on which CSR you talk to) to have Tivo Inc. assist with the fixing of this issue.

As I mentioned in another post a few days ago, Tivo Inc.'s attention may be a little hard to get right now since they are preoccupied with issues in the S3 units as well as rolling out the Comcast box. I don't know if DirecTV burned any bridges when the parted with Tivo, but if they did that will only serve to delay getting this issue resolved.

--- 
In contrast, Comcast "gets it" and they are going to continue offering "vanilla" DVRs for the masses _and_ Tivo units for a premium to customers that want the "Tivo experience". Why couldn't DirecTV have done the same?

As a previous post mentioned, the Tivo crowd may well have been willing to pay higher fees to get quality support for their boxes instead of having a non-Tivo pushed at them as a fix. I certainly would/will, but nobody from DirecTV ever cared to ask me.


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## gordon1fan (Feb 25, 2004)

ebonovic said:


> My days here in this forum... are dwindingly...
> 
> Seriously...
> 
> ...


Damn, that was a good post. The best post I've read all year so far! You sold me on that post. I'm going to call DIRECTV and tell them to send me two R-15's for FREE! I'm sorry, but my wife is getting pissit every time her Directv Tivo reboots. You know us men has to keep the women happy. If they are not happy, we are not happy.


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## NFLnut (Apr 22, 2000)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Yes, it is just a tool, that people pay a monthly service fee for. They are entitled to the expectation that the service will work as it has in the past. All the subscribers want ti the functionality THAT THEY ARE PAYING FOR...


Not only that .. as my wife pointed out tonight, once she found out that she not only missed shows but WOULD miss future shows had we not found out the problem and manually set up recordings, is that after a hard day of work and dealing with some very big problems, and tomorrow will likely be worse, all you want to do is sit and enjoy a few moments of "escape" and get your mind off of work and its problems!

We run two businesses which are doing very well, but are experiencing problems due to fast growth. Enjoying a television show allows us to get our minds cleared, even temporarily. So no .. it's not always "just television." And we pay a hell of a lot of money to DirecTV each month (at last count about $16,000+ over the last twelve years with NFL_Sunday Ticket, and just about everything else!) for the "privilege" of getting those temporary escapes! When I first signed up with DirecTV back in 1994, they had very little competition, and they had NFL-ST. In addition, I was very happy whenever I needed customer service. Fast forward to 2007 and I am looking at either ATT or Verizon and the day they bring FiOS into my neighborhood. As much as I would miss NFL-ST, I would gladly jettison my growing distaste of DirecTV to move to a better provider.

Coincidentally, all of these problems with DirecTV started around the same time they ventured into the DVR business! They had better get back to worrying about customer satisfaction and content, and get OUT of the DVR business!!!


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

I wonder if we pulled an i love lucy on D*. Thousands call pretending to be new customers ask to sign up for the max of everything D* offers nfl sunday ect. go through a long process than ask about dvrs. When they say they dont have tivo say nevermind i will go to cable. (no matter what they offer Ie free showtime and hbo for a year)

Remember when lucy wanted to get ricky working in the club. They came as customers and when they found out ricky not there they left.


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## verchad (Sep 29, 2006)

Markman07 said:


> I bet it is caused by El Nino


No, everybody knows it's a vast right wing conspiracy!


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## blips (Oct 20, 1999)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Now, here is the rub. TiVo's name is still on most of those boxes, so they will have their reputation tarnished with DirecTV's bungling of this issue.


Yes this is what happening with my family/friends. I had to send out an e-mail to everyone I know with a DirecTivo to explain what was going on. I received several e-mails back where they were thinking "Tivo" was screwing up. In their minds it was Tivo's fault.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

blips said:


> Yes this is what happening with my family/friends. I had to send out an e-mail to everyone I know with a DirecTivo to explain what was going on. I received several e-mails back where they were thinking "Tivo" was screwing up. In their minds it was Tivo's fault.


Uhh, their minds are right. It is TiVo's fault. It's their software and they are maintaining it. They are taking forever to get a fix to the issue. TiVo based software units are screwing up and the solution is in TiVo's hands to provide.

DTV picked their 3rd party providers so they obviously can't escape blame, but portioning some blame to TiVo for the lame handling of the log file and the eternity it is taking for a fix is appropriate.


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## ForrestB (Apr 8, 2004)

The problem has been fixed according to DirecTV DirecTV fix


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

David Platt said:


> And how exactly are you expecting a local newspaper ad to reach thousands or millions of DTV subscribers all over the country?


he should put an ad in USA TODAY


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## Warren (Oct 18, 2001)

also what reboots are you talking about I haven't had any.....that I know of


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## NoCleverUsername (Jan 29, 2005)

ForrestB said:


> The problem has been fixed according to DirecTV DirecTV fix


That's a ZDNet article about the complaints. It doesn't mention anything about the problem being fixed. Are you sure you have the right link?


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## ForrestB (Apr 8, 2004)

The third sentence in the article "The company "is aware of the problem and should have it fixed by this evening," Mercer said."

FYI I just checked both of my DirecTivo's and there are no more repeating error messages filling up tvlog - so it looks like the problem is fixed!


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## SteelersFan (Sep 7, 2004)

I'm curious who this is:


> An eight-year customer of DirecTV from Wilmington, N.C., who asked that his name not be used


Is it someone on this forum?


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Uhh, their minds are right. It is TiVo's fault. It's their software and they are maintaining it. They are taking forever to get a fix to the issue. TiVo based software units are screwing up and the solution is in TiVo's hands to provide.


My 4 DTivos haven't received a software update in over a year, and the problem has magically went away (an internal error log file is no longer filling up with bogus errors and using up all of the disk space).

Please explain how Tivo software can be at fault if the problem came and went with no software changes?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Sure thing Goony. It's the behavior that occurs when the log file is full. TiVo apparently never imagined this case, but it has produced a bug making units hard to use.

I think the current fix is temporary and that there will be a software fix as well to make it more permanent. I'm sorry I can't recall where I read that.

I'm glad for everyone that the problem is going and soon to be gone for good.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Sure thing Goony. It's the behavior that occurs when the log file is full. TiVo apparently never imagined this case, but it has produced a bug making units hard to use.


That's just misdirection, and you know it. Some time in December DirecTV or DirecTV's supplier made a change to the data stream sent to all DVRs, including TiVos. This stream was altered in a way that DirecTiVo units could not handle. Does the fault for logs filling lie with the stream data and whoever changed it, or with the TiVo units for doing what they are supposed to, in filing error logs? That the logs overflowed is certainly TiVos problem, but if the unit was not designed to anticipate bad data stream, the problem lies with DirecTV and/or the stream provider. If the stream wasn't changed in December, the logs would'nt have filled. This was NOT caused because of TiVo, it was caused by bad stream data. End of story.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Uhh, their minds are right. It is TiVo's fault. It's their software and they are maintaining it. They are taking forever to get a fix to the issue. TiVo based software units are screwing up and the solution is in TiVo's hands to provide.


Problems first reported here on 12/18. Multiple users start calling DirecTV in early January. DirecTV takes time to compile reports to determine trends. Do you know the exact date that DirecTV shared with TiVo that there was a problem? Today is January 13th. The problem has been identified and a temporary fix has been implemented in the data stream to make the problems go away until a permanent fix can be provided.

The temporary fix was made WITHOUT A SOFTWARE UPDATE. The problem is with the stream, which TiVo does not control. The problem was identified less than 30 days after being raised here, and less than 2 weeks since the uproar started in this new year. Sound like forever to you?


> DTV picked their 3rd party providers so they obviously can't escape blame, but portioning some blame to TiVo for the lame handling of the log file and the eternity it is taking for a fix is appropriate.


Finally! You admit DirecTV has some culpability here. I think instead of blaming the TiVo software though, you should blame whoever changed the data stream. (We know that WASN'T TiVo.)

And again, two weeks is not an eternity.

We are all just speculators here, not being on the inside. But I'd like to point out that if a box is designed in a closed-environment where a predefined set of conditions will always exist, TiVo may not be at fault if someone else changes the previously defined closed environment without TiVo's knowledge and/or input, and that results in enormous error logs which result in reboots. It always comes back to this: if the stream data was good, this wouldn't have happened.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Hey Drew,

Definitely DTV has fault here, it's their customers having problems. I do take up for them sometimes, but more to offset what seems to be an over portioning to DTV and underportioning to TiVo. They're in this together.

The full logfile reboot isn't great programming, but I hear ya about a closed environment etc. End of story? I doubt it.

In any case, I think we do expect a software update to address the handling of the log file. If it hasn't been a long time to fix it, that is relative, but if the duration isn't long, it's not long if it's DTV's fault, just as it's not long if it's TiVo's. Of course you're making up the beginning of January, they could have known much sooner.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Hey Drew,
> 
> Definitely DTV has fault here, it's their customers having problems. I do take up for them sometimes, but more to offset what seems to be an over portioning to DTV and underportioning to TiVo. They're in this together.
> 
> ...


Well the earliest they would know of it was 12/18, and we all know that TiVo isn't permitted to work on fixes until DirecTV authorizes the work ... so ... since we don't know when DirecTV trend analysis determined there was indeed a problem, and shared it with TiVo, we can only point to 12/18. I think less than 30 days is still pretty good...


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't know the specs for the data stream, so I don't know if what changed was actually outside the spec. I know it was as far as TiVo was concerned, but that doesn't mean the DS was 'bad'. 

It's very possible the DS, even the altered DS from 12/18 on is still considered 'good' per the spec. It just pin-pointed a bug in the TiVo code.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

drew2k said:


> I think less than 30 days is still pretty good...


Fair enough. Be sure to point that out when people complain about how horrible DTV has been through this.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

mphare said:


> I don't know the specs for the data stream, so I don't know if what changed was actually outside the spec. I know it was as far as TiVo was concerned, but that doesn't mean the DS was 'bad'.
> 
> It's very possible the DS, even the altered DS from 12/18 on is still considered 'good' per the spec. It just pin-pointed a bug in the TiVo code.


It could have been a sloppy spec too ... the change made to the guide data was "within the spec" but when the Tivo code was written someone interpreted the spec a little bit differently. Thus, the data stream was "within spec" and the Tivo code was "within spec" and it still failed.

It also points out a big hole in DirecTV's testing and rollout procedures. Any change to the data stream that impacted the DTivo units in such a broad fashion should have been caught in a test environment and a software fix rolled out before the data stream was changed.


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## DonDon (Jan 14, 2007)

Look, whether it is a problem with the code on the Tivo boxes or the DS, I am still paying Dtv for my TIVO service. The Tivo service is the reason I signed up for DTV 3 years ago. DTV had the only good working, reasonably priced, 2 recording channel option at the time.

Fast forward today. Dtv has dumped Tivo. Their home grown alternative is hard to use and does not work well. They appear to not be supporting their current Tivo customers very well. Cable does not drop out every time it rains or snows.

As much as I hate comcast for them screwing me for 50 bux a month for cable internet for years, I will start checking out their options again. When they have their act together on a usable Tivo based box, it's bye bye Dtv. I have no problem voting with my credit card. I got a DSL line for 1/3 the price of my cable internet last year. I will go back to them if they have what I want for a reasonable price.

By the way, don't bother with Dish Network. Those *astards should rot in hell. That is one company that will never get another dime out of me, and it is my personal crusade to cost them a million times the money the tried to extort out of me. My compliments to AT&T for backing me against those useless Dishnetwork bas ......  

I know, go get a BEER.

I got one.  

I'm sure I will miss my DirecTivo's, but it appears the Dtv is moving in the wrong direction to retain me as a long term customer.

Don


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Is there any company besides AT&T that you don't fight with?


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

goony said:


> It could have been a sloppy spec too ... the change made to the guide data was "within the spec" but when the Tivo code was written someone interpreted the spec a little bit differently. Thus, the data stream was "within spec" and the Tivo code was "within spec" and it still failed.
> 
> It also points out a big hole in DirecTV's testing and rollout procedures. Any change to the data stream that impacted the DTivo units in such a broad fashion should have been caught in a test environment and a software fix rolled out before the data stream was changed.


And we'll never really know if one or the other was written outside the spec. And it really doesn't matter per the last part of your statement.

If DTV had performed any testing with the DS changes and the DTiVo for any amount of time, they would have identified the problem immediately.

It's obvious they didn't test, and that is bothersome to me.


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## blips (Oct 20, 1999)

Billy66 said:


> Is there any company besides AT&T that you don't fight with?


I think he likes Tivo & probably some beer company.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

It's both their fault.

Tivo has a bug in their code that was only recently discovered.

DirecTV and Tivo didn't thoroughly test prior to release. It's possible to construct a test that passes yet when the code is deployed in the field, the units start failing. Or perhaps the test is limited in scope because resources are limited. That's life. It's not necessarily a bad test. Test just minimizes the chance of failure, it does not eliminate it. 

But one would think a failure of this magnitude would be caught beforehand. 

I'm sure DirecTV has changed the stream in other ways before, and the DirecTivo's behaved just fine. Considering all of the problems with the NDS DVRs, they were probably shocked to discover that Tivo is capable of bugs as well. In the future, I bet they test those bug-filled DirecTivos more thoroughly.


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## DonDon (Jan 14, 2007)

blips said:


> I think he likes Tivo & probably some beer company.


Well, right now, Dtv is the lesser of 3 evils, though they are gaining fast. When they are more annoying than comcast, I will switch. Oh wait, I forgot, I have WOW in my area. I have never done business with them, so I don't hate them, yet.

Right now I am in the process of aquiring a second HDVR2 and hacking them together. I figure I will be with Dtv for at least another year or so. Who knows from there.

I've never done business directly with Tivo, so I don't know how they treat their customers. Their pricing has always seemed a little high for what they actually provide. But I guess they are subsidising the cost of the equipment with the monthly service fee.

Don


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

BobCamp1 said:


> Tivo has a bug in their code that was only recently discovered.


How is this a TiVo bug? Code worked perfectly until DTV on their own evidently decided to change the parameters of the datastream.


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## SuperZippy (Feb 12, 2002)

n00b here..

i bot from weaknees a dtivo unit in nov 2005 because directv told me i might not get a tivo unit but rather their new unit..

i have apparently lost the 2nd tuner...

dtv is ready to send me a replacement..

how can i get a real tivo unit instead?, thru weaknees?

tia


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

You would have to purchase one via EBay, or Weakness, or another third party.

99 out of 100 chances, if not higher... you will get an R15 as a replacement unit.


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

Jon J said:


> How is this a TiVo bug? Code worked perfectly until DTV on their own evidently decided to change the parameters of the datastream.


Exactly. My tivos were working perfect for years. Tivo didnt do anything to my directivo D* did! If this were a result of new software i would blame tivo.

If I brought my chevy to a mechanic for a tune up and he put in the wrong parts is it chevys fault if my car doesnt run right after?

BTW If you havnt figured out the comparison Tivo Is Chevy and D* is the mechanic with whom i trust the care of my DVR/CAR. This is a apt comparison. Tivo like chevy mmade the software or car. The mechanic D* is supposed tu use the correct parts in maintaing the car/dvr. When they changed the datastream they used the wrong parts


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Are you certain BillyBobBoy that the change to the data stream was outside parameters discussed with TiVo?

To extend your analogy, if the mechanic used parts to Chevy's specifications and installed them correctly, isn't it then Chevy's fault? Sure, you would still seek solution from your mechanic, but at that point it's on Chevy.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Jon J said:


> How is this a TiVo bug? Code worked perfectly until DTV on their own evidently decided to change the parameters of the datastream.


Just because something has been working for a while doesn't mean that it doesn't have any bugs. It just means all the bugs haven't been discovered yet.

And its DTV's datastream. They can pretty much do what they want with it. They changed it within the allowed parameters and all the DirecTivos went nuts. NONE of DTV's other devices had ANY problems. Including those made by other companies. Sounds like a misinterpreted spec. to me, or maybe some bad "core" code that's in all the units. It's a bug either way. Been there, done that.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

BobCamp1 said:


> Just because something has been working for a while doesn't mean that it doesn't have any bugs. It just means all the bugs haven't been discovered yet.
> 
> And its DTV's datastream. They can pretty much do what they want with it. They changed it within the allowed parameters and all the DirecTivos went nuts.


Talk about assuming facts not in evidence. You cannot state that as a fact that the change did or did not violate the interface spec, since we do not have access to the Interface Control Document (ICD). The very fact that TiVo software identified and logged the error indicated that they were at least checking for valid data. Why would they error check if there was not a requirement to do so?



BobCamp1 said:


> NONE of DTV's other devices had ANY problems. Including those made by other companies. Sounds like a misinterpreted spec. to me, or maybe some bad "core" code that's in all the units. It's a bug either way. Been there, done that.


Reminds me of a time where I was part of a test team working on a replacement system. We were going thru Engineering Interface Tests, and once instance the interface failed on the new system, but was fine on the old. It turned out that the other entity was adding an additional character to the datagram. The other entity had been wrong for YEARS. Just because other devices did not exhibit the same failure scenario did not mean that they are right.

You are also assuming that DirecTV did test against the DirecTiVo platform prior to making the change. DirecTV may or may not have run a test against any units. There is the potential that DirecTV performed an analysis of the proposed change, and did not perform a structured test. If they did, this should have been identified pretty quickly.

Besides, the core point is that we, the subscribers, pay our DVR fee to DirecTV. It is DirecTV's duty to deliver the service that we, the subscribers, paid for. We do not pay TiVo...


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## jmace57 (Nov 30, 2002)

petersweston said:


> Because this forum spans all of america  Not just my local w is all of s flas


Maybe I'm getting some interference from my tinfoil hat...but...what?

Jim


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## Ultrafied (Aug 20, 2005)

Geez, this is a business. Tivo DVR's are a legacy piece of equipment. They WILL BE phased out eventually unless Dave wants to go back to to Tivo, which at this time, is not their business model. I don't think this was intentional, but do they care as much as if it had affected their own units, I doubt it.
Dave did what any business would do. You have a problem with your equipment, I will give a you brand new piece that isn't affected by this bug. It's you choice to stay with the legacy equipment. Tivo DVR's are not necessarily a right, just a tool that is now being phased out. Over then next few years, I would bet that more and more of these types of problems will be hitting the legacy equipment.
I have an R15 and a DSR-701. I would prefer the 701, but the R15 works fine. I know the 701 will be retired sooner then later. All I care about is getting my shows recorded (and the R15 does that pretty well).


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Talk about assuming facts not in evidence.....
> 
> 
> > Sorry if I don't quote your entire response....
> ...


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

The fact that the old UTVs also didn't have a problem (at least as far as I've heard) says that either TiVo code was not robust enough to cover the problem, or that UTV wrote code with a bug that coincidently aligned with the bug introduced by the altered datastream.

Of course, I don't know about the internal software for either the UTV or the DVR, but maybe they don't log errors and thus didn't have the problem for entirely different reasons.

This is the same problems I have with PC Hardware from Dell, Graphics Processors from nVidia, Sound Processors from Creative, an Operating System from Microsoft and Application SW from Cakewalk, Propellerheads, or Adobe.

If you ever have a problem, everyone is more than willing to point the root cause to anyone of the other vendors. 

So, it is TiVo? DTV? It doesn't really matter. If we choose to stay with a deprecated system, then we will always be in the back seat going along for the ride.

I could have easily seen DTV saying "Oh, well.. Guess that DTiVo isn't going to work anymore.. Wanna lease an R15?".

The fact that we are getting a fix at all speaks well for both companies.

Imagine if the UTV did have this problem.. Do you think they would have rolled out a fix for it?


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## TivoJunkie43 (Mar 9, 2006)

DonDon said:


> Well, right now, Dtv is the lesser of 3 evils, though they are gaining fast. When they are more annoying than comcast, I will switch. Oh wait, I forgot, I have WOW in my area. I have never done business with them, so I don't hate them, yet.
> Don


I have Wow. I used to have Comcast, and I admit I miss the movies on demand, but it was definitely a love hate relationship, kind of like missing an ex girlfriend even though she treaded you poorly 

Best thing about Wow is the price (s).

Wow: 500kbps Internet and Digital Basic Cable Bundle $ 85.99 (Digital basic includes starz and encore). No on demand.

Comcast: They claim high speed (4x faster than 1.5 Mbps DSL, 7x faster than 768K DSL and 100x faster than 56K Dial-up) but they don't actually tell us what the speed is.  I can certify that my pings are just as good now as they were when I had comcast cable internet. The cost? $42.95 with cable package. Basic Digital - "Digital Classic" (includes on demand, but no movie channels) $61.48.

Comcast Subtotal: 104.43 
- Wow 85.99
Total monthly savings applied to beer fund $18.44


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## TivoJunkie43 (Mar 9, 2006)

TivoJunkie43 said:


> Comcast: They claim high speed (4x faster than 1.5 Mbps DSL, 7x faster than 768K DSL and 100x faster than 56K Dial-up) but they don't actually tell us what the speed is.  I can certify that my pings are just as good now as they were when I had comcast cable internet. The cost? $42.95 with cable package. Basic Digital - "Digital Classic" (includes on demand, but no movie channels) $61.48.
> 
> Comcast Subtotal: 104.43
> - Wow 85.99
> Total monthly savings applied to beer fund $18.44


I just checked Wow's website and found this "Wow 6Mbps(1Mbps upload) Internet Bundle and Digital Basic Cable $108.99" 

If the speeds are correct that's costing me $4.56 in beer money!  That's if those speeds are correct and I personal doubt that. But Wow's customer support is much better so i end up drinking less.

I also noticed that wow "in demand" is coming to my area, and already up in certain areas. and DVR rental is available for $7.99 per month.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

BobCamp1 said:


> They changed it within the allowed parameters...


Evidently not. DTV's changes bolluxed up the system.


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

Jon J said:


> Evidently not. DTV's changes bolluxed up the system.


We don't know.
We don't know if DTV changed the DS within a specified variance.
We don't know if TiVo was allowing for all variances within the spec.
We don't know.

We will probably never know.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Actually, Earl B. (who has direct contacts within DirecTV) has specifically said that it's a problem with the Tivo software. He has explicitly stated that the changes in the data stream were made within the specification. If you don't trust him or the information he's been given, that's your problem. Here's your aluminium foil hat, and I'll see you at Area 51.

And it's not just DVRs. Receivers use this guide data as well. Nothing else in the system was screwed up except the DirecTivos. All the evidence and statements so far point to a DirecTivo bug. If it were as other people stated (everyone else on the planet is wrong), don't you think they would have fixed the R-15 and HR-20? They roll out fixes for those much more frequently. Getting Tivo involved is another hassle that DTV probably wanted to avoid.

But hey, if you want to believe that your Tivo is invincible and cannot possibly contain a single bug and DirecTV is out to get you, then cancel your DirecTV subscription *tonight*. Otherwise, sit back and wait for the new software release. Hopefully it will be tested more thoroughly than the last one was.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

But I have also said... time and again...

Doesn't really matter.... "today".

Point is... the problem was identified... DirecTV rolled back the changes to the data stream.
Now they have to wait for TiVo to fix the identified "issue" due to those changes...

Because you can be certain... if DirecTV put them in there... they want them there for some reason.... 

What ever that may be... now is on hold....


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

BobCamp1 said:


> Actually, Earl B. (who has direct contacts within DirecTV) has specifically said that it's a problem with the Tivo software. He has explicitly stated that the changes in the data stream were made within the specification.


Citation, please... <- never mind.



BobCamp1 said:


> And it's not just DVRs. Receivers use this guide data as well. Nothing else in the system was screwed up except the DirecTivos. All the evidence and statements so far point to a DirecTivo bug. If it were as other people stated (everyone else on the planet is wrong), don't you think they would have fixed the R-15 and HR-20? They roll out fixes for those much more frequently. Getting Tivo involved is another hassle that DTV probably wanted to avoid.


But, do normal receivers have to SCHEDULE anything? Nope. As far as rolling out fixes to the R-15 and HR-20, do you REALLY want to compare the baselines in terms of stability??? If so, DirecTiVo's win hands down. Up until the datastream change, my units were stable and trusted to do what I wanted them to do, record programming. The R-15 never made me want to replace the DirecTiVo's. And with the $200 and 2 year commitment, the HR-20 never had a chance with me...



BobCamp1 said:


> But hey, if you want to believe that your Tivo is invincible and cannot possibly contain a single bug and DirecTV is out to get you, then cancel your DirecTV subscription *tonight*. Otherwise, sit back and wait for the new software release. Hopefully it will be tested more thoroughly than the last one was.


Well, DirecTV collects our DVR fee, you would hope that they can support the installed base.

As far as cancelling, DirecTV HAS lost a subscriber (me) who has been with them since 1997 (9 years). Given how long it has been since I got my last receiver (the DSR-7000 that is not to be trusted since the start of this issue), I am a profitable customer who will be counted in the churn. FIOS TV gets installed on 12/28. Since DirecTV wants to go with a generic DVR solution, my last reason to stay with them is gone. So, when I get to retention when I call to cancel, the 2 reasons, and only 2 reasons for my dropping their service is:

1. No longer providing a TiVo based DVR. 
2. The handling of the bug issue.

Up until #2, I was content to sit back and see if the change in control of DirecTV would lead to a revisit of the TiVo position within the company.

And, Bob, do you even own a DirecTiVo?


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## DonDon (Jan 14, 2007)

Look, the "TIVO" box I purchased 3 years ago has a DTV emblem right on the front.

It is not really a "TIVO" box. It is a DTV receiver that has "TIVO" technology. It can do nothing else accept receive DTV programming. That makes it a DTV box, and their baby to keep working if they want to keep me as a customer. I don't really care why it is not working right now. I will not use one of their NEW AND IMPROVED boxes. When they no longer support the DTV boxes with TIVO technology, I will move on. I've lived with cable before, I can do it again.

The sad thing is how can a company that I used to praise to everyone I met sink to such a low so quickly.  

Don


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

DonDon said:


> The sad thing is how can a company that I used to praise to everyone I met sink to such a low so quickly.
> Don


 :up: :up: :up:
I feel the same way. I wonder if DTV has figured out that in fact it is they that are in a commodity business. Since the quality of cable has gotten remarkably better, and new competition like FiOS has come about, I think that their integrated DTV/TiVo DVR would have been a key differentiator in today's landscape.

Looks like Comcast, and Cox so far, are going to have that feather in their cap.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> But, do normal receivers have to SCHEDULE anything? Nope. As far as rolling out fixes to the R-15 and HR-20, do you REALLY want to compare the baselines in terms of stability??? If so, DirecTiVo's win hands down. Up until the datastream change, my units were stable and trusted to do what I wanted them to do, record programming. The R-15 never made me want to replace the DirecTiVo's. And with the $200 and 2 year commitment, the HR-20 never had a chance with me...


Yes, normal receivers schedule to tune to a certain channel at a certain time etc.

But this problem also DID NOT affect UltimateTV which was released right around the time of the first DTivo. Actually the first dual tuner dvr. As usual, it plugged right along. Do the conspiracy theorists have an idea why DTV wants to "trick you" out of your TiVo's and not the UTV's?

Whatever the change, it may have affected all of the other models, but only the TiVo software was designed to reboot etc when the log file becomes full.

We pay DTV, so it's on them to make it work again. If it takes extra time and they lose customers over it, they can add that to the cost of the partnership they chose.


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## blips (Oct 20, 1999)

DonDon said:


> The sad thing is how can a company that I used to praise to everyone I met sink to such a low so quickly.


I fully agree with the sentiment above.

Now my Dad told me yesterday he is moving into one of those "Active Adult" communities (the ones that are for 60 and over). He is going to build a new house and it will be ready in August. I'm thinking of telling him to go with Comcast instead of DTV because hopefully Comcast will have the Tivo out by then. And if he has a moving install of DirecTv in the new house I'm sure he will be locked into a 2 year contract.  :down: :down: :down:


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