# Game of Thrones - Season Two and Book 2 Discussion



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

The most recent episode thread (s2e5) seems to be drawing as many posts complaining about what is posted, especially if it contains any reference to the books, than posts about the actual content of the episode. While there is a thread in the Happy Hour section, many folks that have only read the first couple of books or are currently reading the second book are afraid to read it since there is discussion of all of the books there.

For that reason, I thought that it might be good to have a thread that allows book discussion as it relates to the current season. Thus the title indicating a discussion of Season 2 and Book 2 (A Clash of Kings.) Perhaps this thread can provide a place to discuss the differences between the show and the book and impressions on how the scenes in the book are brought to the screen.

I would suggest that spoiler tags be used to discuss events that are anticipated in future episodes but not yet seen such as:


Spoiler



the Battle on the Blackwater.



GoT is my most anticipated show each week and I loved the books as well. Hopefully this thread will allow a bit more freedom to make comments based on a synthesis of the two. For me a simple comment that I was disappointed that they did not follow the book for Dany's Qartheen dress resulted in complaints. I still hold out hope that they will add that scene in a later episode.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I'm down for this. I just finished book 3, but I don't think it should be too hard to keep the discussion to book two relevant events and be able to discuss how things are diferent between the two. I can still respect the spoiler tag rule also.

Now the real question - how lonely will the other episode threads get since all the cool kids will be over here.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

I figure that there has to be a middle ground between the wide open, anything can be discussed attitude as in the Happy Hour thread and the "don't even mention the books" attitude that some have in the episode threads. It can even be a place to discuss other opinions such as the Westeros.org disappointment with the opening of the last episode not being as well done as the end of the previous one.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I wonder how many threads there have to be before nobody cares any more..?


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder how many threads there have to be before nobody cares any more..?


Someone had suggested in the episode thread that the "book readers" should open their own thread for each episode. That would really make for a messy situation. Hopefully a single season thread will not add too much clutter. Personally I expect to read the episode threads because it is fun to see the speculation but may not post much.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Quite a bit of action on several fronts in episode 6. Looks like Amory Lorch had a more merciful death than in the book. 

Of the non-book scenes, I love the interaction between Arya and Tywin. The scene with Littlefinger also was quite tense.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Wow, I might have to reread although I just read them all during last season. I do _not_ remember anyone stealing the dragons.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

It's starting to feel like a different story than the books.


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## Zarisa (Feb 16, 2012)

If they introduce Harry Potter. IM OUT!

DISLIKED that they stole the dragons. Changes the whole storyline. Relating to the books.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Regarding Talisa -



Spoiler



I can't make up my mind if I think she's Jeyne or not. Clearly she has the same role - to make Robb forget his promise to marry a Frey. I don't really understand why she would be undercover, though, and why that's been changed from the books.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jehma said:


> Regarding Talisa -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had read



Spoiler



that Jeyne is not being written in, that Talisa will in fact replace her as the woman Robb weds instead of a Frey.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I'm just at the point in book two that this episode covers, I can't understand why they changed so much. Arya wasn't Tywin's cupbearer and losing the dragons is weird.


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## Legion (Aug 24, 2005)

Zarisa said:


> If they introduce Harry Potter. IM OUT!
> 
> DISLIKED that they stole the dragons. Changes the whole storyline. Relating to the books.


Agreed.

Also did not like changing Roderick Cassels death. That was our intro to Ramsey.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> I had read
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That makes sense. In the books,


Spoiler



the whole Jeyne thing happens off-screen, which would make for pretty bad television considering how important their marriage is to Robb's fate. Creating a substitute lover that he can meet without having to leave the camp (and thus add extra scenes to a show that is already highly compressed) is a logical choice.



Spoilered because I can't remember how much of this happens in the second and in the third book.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Legion said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Also did not like changing Roderick Cassels death. That was our intro to Ramsey.


At least Roose mentioned his bastard so it looks like he will be cast. There has been speculation that he might not be included in the show.

I'm still not sure whether the stealing the dragons is good or bad. Depends on how it is resolved.

With all the changes from the book in this episode I'm wondering now when the episode thread will bring out the spoiler police. 



Spoiler



I also wonder when Ygritte will utter her catchphrase.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rickvz said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I also wonder when Ygritte will utter her catchphrase.


I don't know why that is spoiled, but I must say I have been reading in the other episode thread for this week's show, and I have been tempted so many times to quote people and say that very thing.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

I think the dragons subplot is a big change, but I'm guessing they use that as a way


Spoiler



to get Dany to the House of the Undying that makes better sense.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rickvz said:


> At least Roose mentioned his bastard so it looks like he will be cast. There has been speculation that he might not be included in the show.





Spoiler



He has to be so Theon can finally get what's coming to him!





Rickvz said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I also wonder when Ygritte will utter her catchphrase.





Spoiler



I was waiting for it on each sentence she spoke!


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I'm just at the point in book two that this episode covers, I can't understand why they changed so much. Arya wasn't Tywin's cupbearer and losing the dragons is weird.


I love the Arya/Tywin scenes, though. Losing the dragons is very weird to me as well, but



Spoiler



this might be the most interesting thing that happens with them for several seasons!


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

The reaction on the "A Song of Ice and Fire" forum has been interesting. There is almost an even split between those that thought it was the best episode of the season and those that hated it.

Even those that hated it generally thought that the first ten minutes was outstanding. The beheading was brutal, especially with Theon kicking the head off at the end.


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## Zarisa (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm honestly shocked none of you are talking about the reeds. Yea I know they smushed them into Osha (which i greatly disliked). I guess finding 2 kids for the roles was hard?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Zarisa said:


> I'm honestly shocked none of you are talking about the reeds. Yea I know they smushed them into Osha (which i greatly disliked). I guess finding 2 kids for the roles was hard?


They were discussed briefly in the books thread in Happy Hour. I'm hoping they'll be introduced next season.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

billypritchard said:


> I think the dragons subplot is a big change, but I'm guessing they use that as a way
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I agree that that's what they're using the stealing of the dragons for, as a plot point. It doesn't seem necessary to me however.

Another note, maybe it's just my imagination from when I read the book, but does anyone else think that the dragons should be much bigger now, not large, but maybe the size of a medium dog?



Spoiler



I don't see how Drogon is going to burn down the House of the Undying when he's smaller than a cat and can barely muster any dragon breath!


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

audioscience said:


> I agree that that's what they're using the stealing of the dragons for, as a plot point. It doesn't seem necessary to me however.
> 
> Another note, maybe it's just my imagination from when I read the book, but does anyone else think that the dragons should be much bigger now, not large, but maybe the size of a medium dog?
> 
> ...





Spoiler



If I recall, he attacks the heart thing in the middle of the house of the Undying, and that action is what brings the house down.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Also, annoyingly I think they are using the smaller size of the dragons as a way to keep down CGI production costs; once they are bigger they won't be able to hide them in cages all the time.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Zarisa said:


> I'm honestly shocked none of you are talking about the reeds. Yea I know they smushed them into Osha (which i greatly disliked). I guess finding 2 kids for the roles was hard?


I'm pretty disappointed they have not cast them. I am however open to the possibility that they could meet the Reeds on the road, after they leave Winterfell.



Spoiler



I'm not sure how else they'll split up with Rickon and leave him out of the story, unless they choose not too do that. But up to this point he's been a non-character. He's just sort of there.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

So, the riot in the streets. I take it that Lolys (sp?) and her mother are just written out of the show entirely? They were never very important, I suppose, but I remember that during the street riot she was raped by 50 men.

Was that the high septon that was pulled apart (literally) by the mob?


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> So, the riot in the streets. I take it that Lolys (sp?) and her mother are just written out of the show entirely? They were never very important, I suppose, but I remember that during the street riot she was raped by 50 men.


Yes, they appear to have been omitted from the adaptation. For a bit it looked like Sansa was going to take on the Lollys treatment but glad they had the Hound show up.



> Was that the high septon that was pulled apart (literally) by the mob?


I thought it was and that would follow the books.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was the septon.


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

I posted this in the S2 episode 6 thread, reposting here where it makes more sense:
-------------------------------------------------


Zarisa said:


> Speaking for someone thats read to midway book 4. I'm really disliking the dirrection the show is heading. YES I know that TV shows/Movies are never like the book. But they generaly keep things pretty much on point when they translate them. This episode (without having to spoilerize anything) is starting to go down a path that concerns me. I watched all of season one prior to reading the books. I read after season one was complete. The book/season was almost 1 for 1. I know the crew has stated they won't be following season 2 : book 2 ratio. Which is fine....but for them to change such major points of the book concerns me. Yes I know...the book is the book...and the show is ...the show.


You keep saying "you know"... But I'm not sure you truly understand what it involved in an adaptation. (Translation is not a proper term) Adaptations range from very faithful to details, to faithful to themes, and just loosely based. By ANY reasonable metric, GOT has been one of the most faithfully adapted multi-novel books.



Zarisa said:


> But it's suppose to be a translated version of the book, not a different story. Yes that can be adapted to many different things.


A different story??? This kind of exaggeration frankly enrages me. The change of minor character fates, and minor events in the scope of the larger story does NOT(!!!) make it a "different story".



Zarisa said:


> It just concerns me that they are changing it up just to "Hollywood" things up. IE: The dragons being taken just to create a "OH NO" at the end of the episode is prime example of what bothers me. I hope they don't continue this trend.


Most fans agree that the Dany story in book 2 is the weakest part of book 2. Besides the house of the undying, nothing of significance occurs in Qarth. As part of the adaptation they have opted to externalize her struggles into a more explicit character building journey. And there is no reason why the end-game of her Qarth journey won't be the same as the book - so it will likely have no long term impact. She'll recover her dragons and learn something from that experience. Also, the lack of threat of someone trying to take her dragons in the book at that point in the story could be argue to be a plot hole.


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> So, the riot in the streets. I take it that Lolys (sp?) and her mother are just written out of the show entirely? They were never very important, I suppose, but I remember that during the street riot she was raped by 50 men.
> 
> Was that the high septon that was pulled apart (literally) by the mob?


I think we could drop Lolys and most of the other court-hanger-ons in general. Doesn't Bronn marry Lolys? Not that it matters really.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I'm sad about some of the stuff that's been left out or changed, but not sad that we've missed seeing Arya pick leeches off Roose Bolton at Harrenhall. 

What is Littlefinger doing at Harrenhall, anyway? I'm trying to figure out what plot point that will drive and hope he's not there so he could recognize Arya for whatever reason. That would be a departure that I don't see the need for.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> I'm sad about some of the stuff that's been left out or changed, but not sad that we've missed seeing Arya pick leeches off Roose Bolton at Harrenhall.
> 
> What is Littlefinger doing at Harrenhall, anyway? I'm trying to figure out what plot point that will drive and hope he's not there so he could recognize Arya for whatever reason. That would be a departure that I don't see the need for.


He was there to negotiate the marriage of Joffrey to Margery. Joff wins in that matchup.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

If I'm remembering right, Littlefinger wasn't in book 2 that much. I thought maybe they just like the character and actor and are trying to get him more work. 

I would love to see Arya and the leeches--also I'm anxious to see Bastard Bolton. 

It's too bad they can't give us 2 ten episode blocks per year and just do everything that's in the books. It's also too bad that GRR Martin writes so darn slow. I want book 6.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Yeah, they have really written Littlefinger up quite a bit and they've put him in different places at different times to compress time and make things a bit more interesting.

I'm curious to see who is the next death for Arya because thus far they have changed who she kills. Amory Lorch is dead and he was killed as a consequence of the Weasel Soup scenario.

I wonder if she will still free northmen to take over Harrenhal, which would give her the third death in Jaqen's killing of the guards.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

audioscience said:


> I'm curious to see who is the next death for Arya because thus far they have changed who she kills. Amory Lorch is dead and he was killed as a consequence of the Weasel Soup scenario.


I think the "3rd death" has to be the same in order to set up the Weasel Soup scenario, and the changeover in control of Harrenhal.

ETA: Not to mention Arya's future. I think Arya's 3rd name is necessary for her entire future story line.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Lars_J said:


> Most fans agree that the Dany story in book 2 is the weakest part of book 2. Besides the house of the undying, nothing of significance occurs in Qarth. As part of the adaptation they have opted to externalize her struggles into a more explicit character building journey. And there is no reason why the end-game of her Qarth journey won't be the same as the book - so it will likely have no long term impact. She'll recover her dragons and learn something from that experience. Also, *the lack of threat of someone trying to take her dragons in the book* at that point in the story could be argue to be a plot hole.


If I remember correctly, Xaro Xhoan Daxos was setting up a scheme to steal Dany's dragon's. The tradition in Qarth was that after their marriage, the couple could ask anything from one another and they have to comply. Dany would ask for the money to buy ships and an army, Xaro was planning to ask for her dragons. I think if Dany had refused she would have been executed, and Xaro would have gotten the dragons and not lost any money.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Yeah, it's definitely going to be interesting to see how they go from book-film now. Is Dany going to go to the slave market and get the unsullied? Is Jon going to join the wildlings and (book 3 spoiler)


Spoiler



kill halfhand?


. I'm guessing that they'll end this season with Stannis' assault on King's Landing.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Yeah, it's definitely going to be interesting to see how they go from book-film now. Is Dany going to go to the slave market and get the unsullied? Is Jon going to join the wildlings and (book 3 spoiler)
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I think they definitely have to have Jon


Spoiler



join the wildlings.


 And they are definitely going to end with


Spoiler



the Battle of the Blackwater, final scene being Tyrion being knocked unconscious into the water...



Also, I'm not trying to be the spoiler police, but according to the OP are we to spoilerize every event that hasn't happened yet, even if in book 2?

I definitely appreciate the spoiler tags for future books as others do. I'm on book 5, so that's the only thing that effects me personally.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

audioscience said:


> I think they definitely have to have Jon
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Second spoiler, I think that's going to be episode 9, and I think George wrote that episode.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Episode 7 continues to show differences from the books but we did get to hear Ygritte say "You know nothing, Jon Snow." I had wondered before the season how they would handle scenes with Jamie since he is largely absent in CoK. It should be interesting where they end his segment this season.

It is interesting reading the reactions of so many in the episode thread doubting the final scene with the burned bodies being raised up.

And for PhotoshopGrl and her growing hatred for Theon:


Spoiler



she should be happy to find out the bodies are not Bran and Rickon. She also must be patient to see how Theon's storyline turns out.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Looks like they're starting to insert some things from the third book into the second season


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> Looks like they're starting to insert some things from the third book into the second season


One growing problem is the tendency for Martin to divvy up the characters among the books. That won't really work in the TV show unless they start releasing actors from their contracts and then hope they're still available when they're needed again...


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One growing problem is the tendency for Martin to divvy up the characters among the books. That won't really work in the TV show unless they start releasing actors from their contracts and then hope they're still available when they're needed again...


I'm surprised they kept Jaime on the sidelines this long actually. I think the Bran/Rickon thing would almost be impossible to pass off in this medium.

Along those lines, spoiler for the end of the book/Book 3


Spoiler



Arstan mind be hard to pull off since we all see him. And they were reminding viewers of his existence last episode. But he had so little screentime that a beard might throw off viewers. Whatever the case, it'll be interesting to see if they speed up the reveal for that reason.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Aniketos said:


> Along those lines, spoiler for the end of the book/Book 3
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Who?

Although it's kind of fun to have some "surprise" elements in the TV show, I'm a little dismayed at some of the turns the show is taking. Is Jon Snow going to be captured by the wildlings rather than willingly join them?

Also..


Spoiler



Will he still have to kill the Halfhand?



Some of these changes I just don't get. Was it just so they could build up Ygritte to give her character more weight?

The whole stolen dragons storyline is another. It was cool to see Pyat Pree do his magic tricks, but was the murder of the 13 (or 11 as it were) necessary? I think they just must have had the need to dramatize the time in Qarth a bit more so they vilified Pyat and Xaro in order to have a payoff. Now they're making Xaro to be a much darker character than he was in book 2. [Spoilerize anything about him in book 5 please, I'm not quite done with it!  ]


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

audioscience said:


> Who?





Spoiler



Barristan Selmy. Who poses an interesting adaptation problem, because...to be continued...


(Double-spoiled because the next bit is deeper in the series)


Spoiler



...a character shows up around Dany later on who is eventually revealed to be Barristan. But of course on TV there's no surprise, because we know what the guy looks like.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh okay. Yeah. I had forgotten that character's name.



Spoiler



I think there will be some attempt at hiding him in the show. Perhaps behind a beard and a scarf around his face. On top of that, I think few people who didn't read the books will even remember who Barristan Selmy is and what he looks like. On that note, he's one of my favorite characters because he's the only other character with as much honor, if not more, than Ned Stark.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I'm about halfway in book 3 and like you guys I don't understand some of the steps they are taking or how they'll get back to the plots. Why leave out the crannogmen? They play a central role in how Bran gets his third "eye". Is the wildling he's traveling with going to serve that purpose now? Is Arya going to get captured by the Brave companions?

Spoilered because I'm not sure if it happened in book 2 or 3:


Spoiler



Is Tyrion going to marry Sansa?


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I'm about halfway in book 3 and like you guys I don't understand some of the steps they are taking or how they'll get back to the plots. Why leave out the crannogmen? They play a central role in how Bran gets his third "eye". Is the wildling he's traveling with going to serve that purpose now? Is Arya going to get captured by the Brave companions?


I still vote that they'll meet the Crannogmen along the way out in the woods. Maybe they'll run into them and find refuge and then guide Bran from there. Likely wouldn't happen until Season 3 though. /fingerscrossed

They have built Osha up to being a pretty strong character however, so who knows.

Arya still has time to leave Harrenhal and although the relationship she's building up with Tywin is interesting, I'm not sure where they're going with it.

Is Tywin going to leave Harrenhal and release her? Or is Roose Bolton somehow going to take over the castle? Here's a theory on Arya's third death:
I think they'll bring in some Northmen prisoners, like they do in the book. Arya's gut feeling will be to use her third death on Tywin (we saw her wanting to try and kill him with the knife in this episode). But then she'll ask Jaqen for help with the Northmen, he'll say she's only owed one death, etc. She'll go through her naming Jaqen routine, he'll agree to help, free the Northmen, the revolt will lead Tywin to flee Harrenhal. The debt will be paid by a guard Jaqen kills. The whole Weasel stew indecent will not be used.

By the way, have we heard Arya called by another name in Tywin's presence? All I remember is him calling her "girl." In the book she goes by both "Weasel and "Nymeria" I believe.


Spoiler



It would be good for them to give her another name considering her path to becoming "no one."





> Spoilered because I'm not sure if it happened in book 2 or 3:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yeah that's book 3 I'm pretty sure.



Spoiler



That happens after the Battle of the Blackwater.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

audioscience said:


> I still vote that they'll meet the Crannogmen along the way out in the woods.


I doubt it. It would be great, but there's just SO MUCH in the books and they become denser and denser, there's going to have to be a lot of compression. And folding the Crannogmen's function into Osha would save a fair amount of precious screen time.

The needs of a TV show are vastly different than the needs of a book, and I think we were tricked by how faithful the first season was into thinking that could possibly continue. But it can't, and increasingly not as they get deeper into it.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I doubt it. It would be great, but there's just SO MUCH in the books and they become denser and denser, there's going to have to be a lot of compression. And folding the Crannogmen's function into Osha would save a fair amount of precious screen time.
> 
> The needs of a TV show are vastly different than the needs of a book, and I think we were tricked by how faithful the first season was into thinking that could possibly continue. But it can't, and increasingly not as they get deeper into it.


You're probably right, but I'm still hoping we'll see Meera and Jojen in season 3 and the reason we haven't seen them yet is so they didn't have to cast the parts and sign actors to an extra year. The biggest problem with Osha taking on their role is


Spoiler



will Rickon accompany them beyond the wall and whatever plans Martin had for Osha and Rickon in future books.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

> The whole stolen dragons storyline is another. It was cool to see Pyat Pree do his magic tricks, but was the murder of the 13 (or 11 as it were) necessary? I think they just must have had the need to dramatize the time in Qarth a bit more so they vilified Pyat and Xaro in order to have a payoff. Now they're making Xaro to be a much darker character than he was in book 2. [Spoilerize anything about him in book 5 please, I'm not quite done with it!  ]


Here's why I'm ok with the Qarth changes. Book 2 Dany had the most boring chapters (and I think I read that she only had 6 chapters total.)

What do most people remember about Dany in Book 2? House of the Undying. So either you have one of your main main characters sit out the majority of the season, or you more or less give her some motivation and dramatic points along the way (as opposed to boring, everyone welcomes her in, etc. of the books)

Having said that, I've pretty much gotten myself divorced from the book purist view, but my initial reactions about the dragons getting stolen was not nearly as nice  I had to think about it for a day before calming down.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

I'm not fond of most of the changes between the books and the show.

But I absolutely _love_ the Arya/Tywin scenes.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Here's a fun little comparison of changes between the books and the show in _Rolling Stone_ magazine:

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/...etween-game-of-thrones-and-the-books-20120515


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Great article. Thanks. One thing it pointed out that I hadn't even thought of--I've read all 5 books, and I never really got a feeling for who Margery is. I love how she's portrayed here. Also, I hope they don't write out her grandmother.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

New episode! Here are my thoughts:

I loved seeing ol' Rattleshirt! I think they did him well and I'm glad they didn't write him out. It's interesting how they reunited Jon with Qhorin. It almost makes more sense. Now Jon feels very guilty for having his brothers die whilst looking for him. Qhorin has already started in motion the reason Jon needs to


Spoiler



kill him


.

Oh, I also think they did the discovery of the obsidian knives and horn well. I was wondering how they were going to do that. In the end it doesn't really matter who found them or how. Digging trenches in the Fist of the First Men almost makes more sense.

Also, Ghost is still gone so I wonder if we will see him again soon? What about the skin changer in Rattleshirt's party? I wonder if he'll be around.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

So, no weasel soup, just walk through the gates. It might have made Catlyn's decision to release Jaime less confusing to non-book readers to have shown a conversation with Jaime where he swore on his honor to work for the release of the girls. Also would have been easier to understand if they had gotten word that Bran and Rickon were dead. They certainly didn't wait long to reveal the boys hiding in the crypt.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Rickvz said:


> So, no weasel soup, just walk through the gates. It might have made Catlyn's decision to release Jaime less confusing to non-book readers to have shown a conversation with Jaime where he swore on his honor to work for the release of the girls.


This whole story line has been butchered, in my opinion. Most of the changes they have made have been good and made the story flow better on television. The Stark story has been ruined.

They made no effort to really do a proper exposition on the tension Jamie's imprisonment creates in the book. They threw together a couple scenes of men fighting, but that doesn't cover it. As mentioned above, the word that the boys had been killed by Theon is the REASON Cat frees Jamie. Not to mention, the conversation they left out where he swears on his honor to do his best is a significant event in the books. Jamie's story progression, and the evolution of his opinion on his own legacy and honor is very important. Dropping those elements to make Jamie just some Lannister prick is not good.

They have also rushed the Robb romance which wasn't in the books at all (no Robb point of view) and wasn't even exposed, correct me if I'm wrong, until book 3. Having read all the books, I see what they are up to, but I don't like it.


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## Fassade (Apr 8, 2004)

If Blackwater is episode 9, one opportunity they have really missed is showing Tyrion's preparations.



Spoiler



Tyrion's triumph is not just the victory at Blackwater, but that he was able to devise a strategy and plan the forging of the chain so far ahead. The fact that he was able to plan an elaborate trap to defend Kings Landing while simultaneously fending off intrigue at Court makes his contribution in the Battle of Blackwater that much more admirable, and makes the injustice he suffers in its aftermath that much more meaningful.

A simple setup scene -- similar to how Halfhand set up John Snow for the wildlings this past week -- where Tyrion visits the city smiths, and we see they are making *something* at Tyrion's command, would have paid off well. They undoubtedly will have a similar scene at the beginning of the next episode, but it will lose some impact for being so close to the battle, and after most of the intrigue has taken place.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Fassade said:


> If Blackwater is episode 9, one opportunity they have really missed is showing Tyrion's preparations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was thinking the same thing. However, I'm sure they will show the preparation in the next episode and the event itself in the final episode.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Episode titles for the last two episodes:


Spoiler



9 Blackwater (the George RR Martin episode for this season)
10 Valar Morghulis


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Fassade said:


> If Blackwater is episode 9, one opportunity they have really missed is showing Tyrion's preparations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe we've already seen a scene where he orders this to be done


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## Fassade (Apr 8, 2004)

cherry ghost said:


> I believe we've already seen a scene where he orders this to be done


We see a scene where he is shown the firepots, and says "keep making them, but for me" -- but, if I recall correctly, we have not



Spoiler



seen any scene involving the chain or any indication indicating Tyrion has come up with a plan, or that the firepots are part of a plan. He decided when he saw them to keep them in his back pocket, so to speak, but has not planned any strategy.


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## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Yeah - if they leave that stuff out - I won't be happy.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Fassade said:


> We see a scene where he is shown the firepots, and says "keep making them, but for me" -- but, if I recall correctly, we have not
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought there was a scene where he



Spoiler



ordered all the blacksmiths to create links. He just didn't come out and say these would be used in a large chain and what that chain would be used for.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

I went back and reread the section from the book between Tyrion and Cersei and was interested in how the words were pretty much straight from the book but how Tyrion comes off much more sympathetic in the show. The quote from the book is below with the show version outside of the parentheses.



> ( I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You've ended that.) I will hurt you for this. (I don't know how yet, but give me time.) A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid.


Interesting that they do not have Tyrion holding Tommen in the show so we didn't have the back and forth threats between Tyrion and Cersei.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't remember the discussion of anything but the wildfire....

Agreed the Jamie thing was rushed. They didn't really explain why she sent Brienne with him either. Was there a scene in the book where Tyrion promised her a fair exchange--maybe sent a raven? She had come to trust him, I think. 

I'm confused about the Arya story too. In the book was it to free the prisoners that she used the saying his own name thing, and then I thought she killed a guard and helped them escape herself when she decided Roose Bolton wasn't trustworthy. I love how brave she is compared to even Gendry. Will she ever see Jaquen again now?


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

She has to. She has to get the coin and learn the words.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought there was a scene where he
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't remember him mentioning anything about creating links or a chain.

Only the visit to the alchemists for the wildfire.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

audioscience said:


> I don't remember him mentioning anything about creating links or a chain.
> 
> Only the visit to the alchemists for the wildfire.


I probably read it and thought I saw it. I hope they don't leave the chain out.


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## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

Regarding Tyrion and Blackwater, I'm curious if the show will:



Spoiler



disfigure him as badly as the book does. I'm guessing not as his injuries are substantial. They will probably just give him some bad scars.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Bryanmc said:


> Regarding Tyrion and Blackwater, I'm curious if the show will:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with your assessment. I think they will



Spoiler



Probably give him a scar on his nose. Considering they didn't make Rorge nose-less like in the book (I was waiting for that by the way) I don't think they'll make the star have half a nose. Probably just a scar on it or something.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

I loved the Blackwater episode even without the chain. The lone ship leaking wildfire and the suddenness of the destruction once it was lit made the chain unneeded. 

It was pretty obvious that they would likely change the nature of Tyrion's injury at the end. It will be easier to add a scar rather than have to make him up to have no nose. I had thought they might even have the injury be a serious chest wound or such.

One of the main topics developing on the episode thread is whether Sansa actually left with the Hound. The scene between them was not as violent as portrayed in the books and we didn't get Sansa singing to the Hound. I wonder if we will return to that scene next week with Sansa moving to the door and then bolting it rather than going with the Hound.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I hope she doesn't go with the Hound and skip over the next stuff in the book. 

I can't remember who sliced Tyrion in the book--was it one of the King's guard sent by Cercei? 

I wonder if Arya is going to run into the Hound next and skip the Brotherhood? I hope not. But that will all be a year from now


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> I can't remember who sliced Tyrion in the book--was it one of the King's guard sent by Cercei?


Mandon Moore of the Kingsguard


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I hope she doesn't go with the Hound and skip over the next stuff in the book.
> 
> I can't remember who sliced Tyrion in the book--was it one of the King's guard sent by Cercei?
> 
> I wonder if Arya is going to run into the Hound next and skip the Brotherhood? I hope not. But that will all be a year from now


Careful, you're getting into book 3 stuff.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Sorry-I was careful in my first line and then forgot when I got to the last one.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I think the exploding shipped was well done. Both in the book and the show they Bronn emtioned how dangerous it would be to have people flinging the suff, having the ship go out seemed a lot safer.

The chain made things better in the book, but I'll happily accept the way things played out. Tyrion's speech, did it happen in the book? I don't think so but it's been awhile. I think it was good enough to get the same viewer sympathy he deserves in the future.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I'm going to try this again, but it's harder to avoid spoilers on this thread than the other one.

In the books did Tyrion use the tunnels to get behind Stannis? I don't remember that part.

People are going on and on about how stupid John Snow is. In the books he didn't really come across that way, did he? For example, when he followed Craster out into the dark with the baby and then got caught--that wasn't in the books, was it? And I don't think it was his fault that Halfhand got caught, but I don't remember that too well. Are they making John Snow to know less than nothing on the show?


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> In the books did Tyrion use the tunnels to get behind Stannis? I don't remember that part.


No.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I too think Jon Snow didn't come off as stupid in the books. Because of my impression of him from reading I have a hard time of seeing his actions as making him stupid, but I can't argue with some of the comments being made about him especially regarding Ygritte.

I can overlook him following Castor out in the wood. Sam asked the question what happens to the baby boys, and his _curiosity took the better of him_ especially since obviously Castor was doing something nefarious. However if Castor just went out there and sacrificed the baby by killing it himself instead of giving it to the white walkers, it's not like Jon would be able to do anything. However Jon's morals he picked up from Ned would have caused him to still stir up problems still. it was a lose lose situation for him.

Not killing Ygritte and taking her captive after his fellow crows killed the other wildlings. What was his plan after catching up with his fellow nights watchmen? They would not want another mouth to feed. I think this story line has not been changed for the better, however there's still 1 more episode so hopefully the direction they're taking it makes the destination worth the butchered journey.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

I don't think Jon Snow came off as stupid in the books.



Spoiler



At least not the early books. His decisions in A Dance with Dragons were suspect, to say the least.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> I don't think Jon Snow came off as stupid in the books.


I think he came off as naive sometimes but that was expected given his back ground compared to the other men at the wall. But he didn't seem to do stupid stuff just for the heck of it one week to the next, I mean one chapter to the next. 



Spoiler



Even in Dance with Dragons he was making decisions that needed to be made. Unfortunately those decisions weren't popular.


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## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> You're probably right, but I'm still hoping we'll see Meera and Jojen in season 3 and the reason we haven't seen them yet is so they didn't have to cast the parts and sign actors to an extra year. The biggest problem with Osha taking on their role is * SPOILER *


This link, http://blastr.com/2012/05/which-new-characters-will.php, was posted elsewhere and discusses casting decisions for next season.


Spoiler



So it looks like Meera and Jojen will be cast.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Rickvz said:


> This link, http://blastr.com/2012/05/which-new-characters-will.php, was posted elsewhere and discusses casting decisions for next season.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yes! Exactly what I was hoping!

It won't be completely bastardized after all.


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## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> I'm going to try this again, but it's harder to avoid spoilers on this thread than the other one.
> 
> In the books did Tyrion use the tunnels to get behind Stannis? I don't remember that part.


No, I think they used that little ploy to replace his chain in the books. It was a genius tactical move that shows his smarts and that he was able to make smart decisions in battle and in turn helped save the castle.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

On the other hand, in the books they made the tunnels seem small and nobody knew about them but Varys and a few others. I had trouble picturing all these big, armored men marching through them. And now everybody and his brother will be able to sneak anywhere in the castle, while family members who need to hide or escape could be much more easily caught.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Ok, I can't find it in the book, but I don't remember Theon being knocked out by his friends. What happened in the book regarding that and winterfell?


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Ok, I can't find it in the book, but I don't remember Theon being knocked out by his friends. What happened in the book regarding that and winterfell?


Read about it here:

http://towerofthehand.com/books/102/067/index.html

It summarizes the chapter which is different from the series in many ways.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I think the whole plot with Reek/Ramsay Bolton (Lord Botlon's bastard) would have taken too much time unless they make the show 12 episodes a season, I wouldn't complain. They left it very ambiguous as to what happened to Winterfell. They could have at least shown a few of the Iron Men dead to at least give you the impression something nefarious happened to Winterfell with Stark's own bannermen men.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

robojerk said:


> I think the whole plot with Reek/Ramsay Bolton (Lord Botlon's bastard) would have taken too much time unless they make the show 12 episodes a season, I wouldn't complain. They left it very ambiguous as to what happened to Winterfell. They could have at least shown a few of the Iron Men dead to at least give you the impression something nefarious happened to Winterfell with Stark's own bannermen men.


But by then they'd already strayed from the plot anyway. I figure next season we'll found out what happened and it will amount to getting important characters where they need to be in order to continue the story.

My wife is not happy with how the show is going (she has not read the books) because it seems like only good people die. I started to disagree but actually from what I remember of the books...it doesn't pay to be a 'good' guy in Westros.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

If nothing else it is another cliff hanger to keep us excited about next season. What the heck happened at Winterfell. What about the men north of the wall? Etc Etc. I can't believe the season is over already and we have to wait at least a year for the next one. If Arya grows as much as Sansa did between years somethings gonna give.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Did the tv show ever reveal the fact the Peter Baelish asked for Cat's father for her hand in marriage even though she was promised to Brandon Stark (Ned's older brother). Peter and Brandon dueled over her and Brandon easily beat Peter, then gave him mercy on Cat's request, she did think of him like a brother after all. After Ned's brother and father were burned alive by the mad king, Cat was then promised and married to Ned.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

robojerk said:


> Did the tv show ever reveal the fact the Peter Baelish asked for Cat's father for her hand in marriage even though she was promised to Brandon Stark (Ned's older brother). Peter and Brandon dueled over her and Brandon easily beat Peter, then gave him mercy on Cat's request, she did think of him like a brother after all. After Ned's brother and father were burned alive by the mad king, Cat was then promised and married to Ned.


That rings a bell, but since I've read Book 1 and most of Book2 I can't swear that I saw it on the show, though I think I did.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I never really liked the whole drowned men, they sound way too anarchist to be as organized as they are. If the iron born way of life is to take things you want by force, how and why do they have a king? You would think there would be constant rebellions as they're motto is to acquire things by paying the "iron price", so even if the king of the islands took the little kingdom by force, any chance of his offspring inheriting the throne is zero since they never paid the iron price for it. Also they're little rebellion by raping and plundering the sea towns seems so near sighted. If the Lannisters or Baratheons win the iron throne, the first thing they would do is crush the drowned men little raiding parties. You would think a little forethought would mean aligning with the Starks (even though they hate them) would be the only way to ensure the little kingdom would have a chance to survive.


jakerock said:


> But by then they'd already strayed from the plot anyway. I figure next season we'll found out what happened and it will amount to getting important characters where they need to be in order to continue the story.


I just think the whole plot was chopped up too much. Also I don't think the Theon's men would sacrifice Theon like they suggested on the show. How would they ever be able to live in a kingdom where they gave an enemy their prince so they could come home?

If the show was 2 episodes longer, they could have added these few scenes: I added spoiler in case someone hasn't finished book 2 yet.


Spoiler




Bran sends men to capture Ramsay Bolton for raping/killing a lady of a house sworn to the Starks. Ramsay and Reek do their switcharoo, Rodrik thinks he kills Ramsay and captures Reek. ( they could hide the switch from the viewer)
After Theon takes winterfell he releases Reek and had him available to help with the search of the Stark boys that escaped.
Then after Theon's sister refuses to give him the men he needs to hold the castle, Reek could have offered his allegiance to Theon and promised to come back with more men.
Reek returns with his men and Theon let them in Winterfell reveals he's not really Reek but Ramsay, kills the iron islanders, captures Theon, burns Winterfell.



But like some have said in the episode thread, they could have left it mysterious to get people excited for season 3.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Speaking of books, there is a series of short novels called the Dunk and Egg Tales


> The DUNK AND EGG TALES are a series of short novels written by George R. R. Martin, also known as "Tales of the Seven Kingdoms." These tales take place roughly 90-100 years before the events of A Game of Thrones, and follow a young hedge knight named Dunk and his squire, Egg.


http://towerofthehand.com/books/dunkandegg.html

Has anyone read them?


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Any thoughts on how to handle a Season 3 thread? If what I've read is correct, there may be some things from book 4 in season 3.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I hope we have a thread for those of us who have read the books--there are probably more of us than those who haven't at this forum by now. 

I'm rereading book 3 now, and there's so much in there, I don't know how they're going to get to book 4 stuff.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> I hope we have a thread for those of us who have read the books--there are probably more of us than those who haven't at this forum by now.
> 
> I'm rereading book 3 now, and there's so much in there, I don't know how they're going to get to book 4 stuff.


I think Book 3 will be two TV seasons but there will also be some of Book 4 in both seasons. The new thread might have to be "Season 3 - All Books".


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yes, the connection between specific books and specific seasons will apparently grow increasingly tenuous as we progress.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Even though I said I wouldn't, I'm rereading selected portions of book 3 now. Mostly just the Jamie, Tyrion and Arya chapters.


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