# Get the Tivo OS onto Virgin Media's 'V+ Box' DVR



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

This is a petition to get Virgin Media seriously considering licencing the Tivo OS from Tivo, Inc. for use on their V+ Box DVR as this would add an enourmous amount of useful functionality to the product, including (among other things) Season Passes, Wishlists and remote scheduling.

More info: http://www.virginmediainfo.co.uk/tivopetition.shtml
Sign the petition: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/tivo4vplus

Apparently, VM have already "had meetings" with Tivo, Inc. Hopefully we can persuade them 

(No, I'm not that optomistic. We'd need the support of the entire customer base to _really_ stand a chance, but that's never going to happen. Still, I can say I tried )


----------



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

We don't even have cable in my town and there are no plans in the foreseeable future but I have signed just because Tivo on any platform in the UK will bode well for the future!


----------



## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

I can't get cable. However, I could take a five minute walk from my home in any direction and be in (ex) telewest area. I'm in rented accommodation and would move to the next street for a series 3


----------



## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

Signed. Worth a shot anyway. Thanks Carl.


----------



## martink0646 (Feb 8, 2005)

Carl,

I think you've done a good job on the intro. I have signed & added a comment to the effect that I am a Sky customer but would sign up with Virgin immediately. Assuming they upgrade the Anolog cable here at the mo!!!

Martin


----------



## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

Carl.

I am sadly moving into a non cabled area, they have cable about 100 yards down the road??

Are the cable people planning any expansion at all do you know???


----------



## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

signed - and good luck


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

6022tivo said:


> Are the cable people planning any expansion at all do you know???


No idea, sorry.

Thanks to all the signees so far


----------



## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

Problem is though I have a cable socket in my house I truly hate them (Virgin, formerly NTL, formerly CableTel. Same lot throughout who've changed names and bought other companies along the way).

I really couldn't stand to have them screw things up yet again costing me a small fortune, just for the possibility of TiVo.

Oh well, may sign anyway but I can't see me ever getting it if by some miracle it happens (surely they're way too far down the road with their own solution now anyway though?).

6022tivo - as for expansion, cable companies are mainly looking at IPTV solutions over ADSL to expand. They will never get cable everywhere and most councils won't let them dig up the roads to do it anyway. Mind you if they say it's not cabled but you are near a cabled area you might want to pester them, especially if it's a former NTL area as it's possible their records are wrong (they flat refused to believe my address was cabled even though my neighbours all had it. They just had the wrong records but effectively told me to get lost. Foolishly I persisted and got cable and then my problems began... but that's another story).


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well, like I said earlier, can't win 'em all


----------



## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

Great idea.

Signed.


----------



## leejordan (Apr 22, 2002)

I have signed too.

How will Virgin get to know about this Petition?

Lee.


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Signed, news item added to my website here, and all customers emailed


----------



## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Signed..... just need them to cable my street now !!!!


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

leejordan said:


> How will Virgin get to know about this Petition?


Well, their Media Relations department have already been informed that I intended to start the petition. I will, of course, be letting them (and probably some others too!) have the final figures as well as progress reports.



blindlemon said:


> Signed, news item added to my website here, and all customers emailed


Nice one, BL. Thanks! (Except that I don't have the V+ Box )



katman said:


> Signed..... just need them to cable my street now !!!!


Well yeah. That would help I suppose


----------



## foxy VW (Nov 22, 2002)

Carl.
Do you have to make a donation before you can sign the petition?
Roy


----------



## 6022tivo (Oct 29, 2002)

No, it askes you afterwards.


----------



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Bloody hell, i went back to check to see how the petition was doing and it was on 2 pages at 89, no-where near enough to be taken seriously I suspect yet but not bad going in a short period of time. It even went up to 92 whilst I was looking.

I think we need to get the link posted in as many places as possible.


----------



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Okay, just added it as a sticky to all my forums.


----------



## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

What about a posting in the other place?


----------



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Would it be cheating, posting it in the more prominent US forums getting all the USA guys on-board, or would they smell a rat if there were more petitions than all the UK Tivo, Sky+ users etc put together ;-)


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

foxy VW said:


> Do you have to make a donation before you can sign the petition?





6022tivo said:


> No, it askes you afterwards.


I don't think you _have_ to make a donation at all. However, just to point out that that's an iPetitions thing and nothing to do with me.



healeydave said:


> Okay, just added it as a sticky to all my forums.


Thanks, Dave!



healeydave said:


> Would it be cheating, posting it in the more prominent US forums getting all the USA guys on-board, or would they smell a rat if there were more petitions than all the UK Tivo, Sky+ users etc put together ;-)


LOL  Never even crossed my mind to post it 'over there' 

Edited to add:
*145 sigs in just over a day!!!!*
Cool


----------



## Lysander (Sep 18, 2003)

Got my vote!


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I don't think the Anonymous signatures with no comments are really very convincing for Virgin, although I suppose this Petition site uses IP logging to make at least some basic attempt to try to stop double voting?

The more names of real people with real comments there are the more Virgin is likely to sit up and actually take notice.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

There are no "anonymous" signatures. That is only a display thing. I have names and email addresses for every signee and yes, there are some basic measures in place as you mention.

Bloody hell! Just checked and there's *262 signatures* now


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

311 now and I'm pleased to say I recognise many of the names, so my mailshot looks like a success


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> 311 now and I'm pleased to say I recognise many of the names, so my mailshot looks like a success


I didn't get your mailshot but I have signed the petition anyway.

Can I assume your mailshot is to your Tivo upgrading customer base?


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Clearly, as I don't have the email addresses of _everybody _with a TiVo


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

blindlemon said:


> Clearly, as I don't have the email addresses of _everybody _with a TiVo


I bet Gary and ozsat have access to a few more UK Tivo owner email addresses though if they wanted to send a circular to all Tivo UK section forum members.


----------



## manolan (Feb 13, 2001)

Up to 370 now. I have to say I'm staggered when you consider the limited number of people who are likely to understand the real value of a TiVo service and then further factor in the relatively low number of people who have probably come across the petition.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

manolan said:


> Up to 370 now. I have to say I'm staggered when you consider the limited number of people who are likely to understand the real value of a TiVo service and then further factor in the relatively low number of people who have probably come across the petition.


But consider how many upgrade clients of TivoHeaven there have been over time and the fact that TivoHeaven have emailed all those clients with the link to the petition. 

Hopefully Tivoland will also consider doing the same thing.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

healeydave said:


> Would it be cheating, posting it in the more prominent US forums getting all the USA guys on-board, or would they smell a rat if there were more petitions than all the UK Tivo, Sky+ users etc put together


Alrerady had one sig from someone in the US  Don't really want any more 

Now @ *372* signatures


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

*389* sigs now 

Had a preliminary reply from my contact in the VM Media Centre.

He has passed on the details of the Petition to certain people within the company. However, it's not looking too good. (Did I hear a "no surprise there then"? )

The Senior Product Developer that said that they are "planning a series of V+ enhancements throughout the rest of this year and next, with the initial focus on improving performance and optimising the current software platform."

I replied with a passionate (and slightly rambling ) response about not re-inventing the wheel" as someone somewhere put it.

We'll see what happens.


----------



## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Carl - as someone who's been a Senior Product Developer, I wouldn't expect any response other than what you've been given.

1) They are not going to talk themselves out of a job.
2) The company isn't going to admit their product sucks.

It's not the development folks you need - it's the decision makers. I.E. the board.

When your petition is closed, send it to Mr. Branson.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ColinYounger said:


> It's not the development folks you need - it's the decision makers. I.E. the board.


If they want to do a deal with Tivo it will most definitely be the senior marketing people who decide this and not the developer of the current lousy V+ software.

The marketing people will simply give the V+ developer the bad news if and when he/she is fired because their services are no longer required as Virgin have decided to instead outsource provision of the software on the box to Tivo................................... :up:

Of course in practice there will need to be a link person between Virgin and Tivo to tailor the software a little to the specific needs of UK EPG data etc, etc so perhaps there is still hope for the developer that they may remain in employment in this link role. Especially since his/her work so far on the V+ software cleary proves that their days as a PVR software developer most definitely ought to be numbered.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ColinYounger said:


> Carl - as someone who's been a Senior Product Developer, I wouldn't expect any response other than what you've been given.


A good point, duly noted.


----------



## davisa (Feb 19, 2002)

cwaring said:


> The Senior Product Developer that said that they are "planning a series of V+ enhancements throughout the rest of this year and next, with the initial focus on improving performance and optimising the current software platform."


As expected.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter (to me) what enhancements they add to V+ if the user interface is fundamentally wrong.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Up to 425 signature now I see. Are you sure we shouldn't also make a post in the US Tivo forum section about this petition. You know how most of those guys have almost have nothing better to do than relentlessly promote the virtues of Tivo.

I think Carl really should have also asked for addresses including the country (as per http://petitions.pm.gov.uk) as in that way we could still have worked out who were the UK residents signing the petition, even if our Transatlantic cousins also decided to try and join us in signing up.


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

cwaring said:


> We'll see what happens.


Hmm, sounds like time to escalate to Mr Branson shortly.

Maybe when the petition gets to 1000....


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Are you sure we shouldn't also make a post in the US Tivo forum section about this petition.


I'm absolutely positive we shouldn't what use is 300 US signatures to a UK cable company? Would completely spoil the Petition.



Pete77 said:


> I think Carl really should have also asked for addresses including the country (as per http://petitions.pm.gov.uk) as in that way we could still have worked out who were the UK residents signing the petition, even if our Transatlantic cousins also decided to try and join us in signing up.


I assume that was only an example as I'm sure I couldn't use that actual site for this petition. 

I think the one US resident has 'commented' the fact.


----------



## manolan (Feb 13, 2001)

cwaring said:


> ... snip ...
> 
> I think the one US resident has 'commented' the fact.


I agree you don't want US signatures.

But (looking back over the last 50-odd signatures), all I can see is someone who says they used TiVo in the US. It doesn't say they're based in the US. Or is there another one?


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

"Thomas" at 186 or 187 is the only US signatory so far; that I can tell, at least.


----------



## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

Hi, I'm Thomas. I'm the US petition signer that identified myself in the comments as a US resident that used TiVo for 7 years. Now because I have 2 Series3 Tivos, I went to back to cable since DirecTV no longer sells TiVo.

Many people do think of TiVo first and content provider second. Many people would change provider for a better TiVo experience. I hope for you guys in the UK, Virgin does do TiVo. I came back to cable because of the new dual-tuner HD CableCard Series3 that works with any US Digital Cable Service and gives me a better TiVo experience than my DirecTiVos did..


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I'm still inclined to think another 20,000 or so signatures of our petition from across the pond might not be such a bad thing.


----------



## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

I think it's pretty meaningless to solicit US names. Virgin aren't going to give a toss if 20,000 Americans vote and only 500 of us. So Carl I'm with you.


----------



## dvdfever (Jun 2, 2002)

I've signed it today. Although I don't have any plans to get Virginmedia, I'd like to see TiVo get a second chance and anything that pokes a rusty nail in the eye of Sky+ is a good thing


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Hehe. Yeah. I did notice a familiar name on there  Thanks Dom!


----------



## peterseventy (Sep 22, 2005)

A few weeks' experience of Virgin's V+ box has convinced me that installing the superb TiVo OS would be wasted on the V+ box and only serve to tarnish TiVo's good name. Our V+ box is unacceptably noisy even though we have mounted it on acoustic feet, it crashes at least once a week (makes a special point of doing this on the days we go away) and Virgin support, like NTL before it, varies between the bureaucratically dire and the non-existent. We are only putting up with it to avoid having to phone them.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

peterseventy said:


> Our V+ box is unacceptably noisy even though we have mounted it on acoustic feet


Presumably it has a Maxtor or Hitachi hard drive in it? Why not open it and find out what make the hard drive is. Is it user replaceable with a Samsung drive as per Sky's box?



> it crashes at least once a week (makes a special point of doing this on the days we go away)


This would not happen if it was running the Tivo software as it is the crappy Virgin software and not the hardware in the box which is letting you down.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Why not open it and find out what make the hard drive is.


Because it's fitted with tamper-proof screws, or whatever. Basically it's a no-no.



Pete77 said:


> Is it user replaceable with a Samsung drive as per Sky's box?


No.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Because it's fitted with tamper-proof screws, or whatever. Basically it's a no-no.


What like the Tivo tamper-proof Torx screws you mean?  

Why is it a No No? I'm sure its just a PVR like any other inside. The main question though is whether the operating system is all on some kind of EPROM on the motherboard (as with Sky+) or whether if you replaced the hard drive you would have to get the operating system copied over to the new HDD like a Tivo.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

It's a no-no because you rent the box, you don't own it.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Presumably it has a Maxtor or Hitachi hard drive in it?


Western Digital or Maxtor according to Wikipedia.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Western Digital or Maxtor according to Wikipedia.


Western Digital make some very noisy 3.5" drives even though they make some very quiet 2.5" ones.


----------



## Paul555 (Mar 20, 2004)

I have signed the petition and would definately swap from Sky if this was to happen. I'm not holding my breath though. I emailed a few Virgin higher ups about this a while back and haven't had a reply. A few on here may have done the same.

Oh well you don't get anything if you don't ask!


----------



## thermidor (Jun 24, 2007)

I have TiVo in the UK - the old faithful Thompson Scenium box. But the service line for support and everything else is provided by SKY (ring TiVo UK - and you get through to a SKY support person who just says "Hello Tivo"). I assume this means that TiVo in the UK is licenced to SKY (even though they are not using it and pressing ahead with the woefully inferior SKY+ which I also have).

If this is the case . . . I doubt very much that TiVo will be partnering up with Virgin - given that SKY and Virgin are such chums . . . . Shame really. I'd love a series 3 TiVo box . . . .


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

thermidor said:


> I assume this means that TiVo in the UK is licenced to SKY (even though they are not using it and pressing ahead with the woefully inferior SKY+ which I also have).
> 
> If this is the case . . . I doubt very much that TiVo will be partnering up with Virgin - given that SKY and Virgin are such chums . . . . Shame really. I'd love a series 3 TiVo box . . . .


No this is not the case.

Tivo merely did a marketing deal with Sky to be able to use their logo etc and for Sky to mention their product between 2000 and 2002. The customer service arrangements continue purely due to interia/laziness by Tivo and their apparent view that they are the cheapest/lowest cost way to support things. Personally I would have thought supporting us directly from California and only opening the supporting lines 5pm to 6am UK time would have made more sense once Tivo pulled out of further UK marketing.

There is nothing stopping Tivo doing a deal with any other UK marketing partner. The main practical obstacles are Sky and Virgin's decisions to go with their own cheaper, crappier but more profitable PVR sofware solutions instead and the stranglehold Sky and Virgin have on the pay tv marketplace. Plus soon Freeview Playback will offer Series Link for free without the need to pay a subscription so who will want to pay for Tivo...........


----------



## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

I'm not holding my breath that Freeview Playback's "series link" will be a TiVo killer... 

If it's anything like the Sky+ series link it will hardly be worth having. And even if it's as good as a TiVo season pass, it still won't make the box into a TiVo


----------



## thermidor (Jun 24, 2007)

TiVo has soo many things that beat other PVRs. I cant tell you how many "series links" have just randomly disappeared on Sky+ half way through a series - making me miss an episode before I notice. They also are not persistent like Season Passes. And there are no wishlists. And the program search function is just a joke. And it sometimes sticks when you press delete, so you press it again, and then it frees up and because there is no confirm it deletes 2 programs that you havent watched yet. And if you launch the menu, you cant then rewind live tv beyond the time you pressed menu. Grrrr.  

My fantasy TiVo would have two slots for SKY cards, plus a built in freeview, be able to do "record 2 watch one", plus a built in DVD recorder to auto save programs, plus a USB port to save programs direct to a usb key and take to watch at a friends place or on my PC, plus a port (firewire/usb) to allow me to cheaply attach a bigger generic hard drive module for extra program storage.  

I'd sell my granny for that TiVo, and gladly smash the Sky+ box to bits with a hammer. Especially as I've just been told "Sorry - your box is too old and you cant have sky anytime. Thanks. Goodbye". Nice!


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

thermidor said:


> TiVo has soo many things that beat other PVRs. I cant tell you how many "series links" have just randomly disappeared on Sky+ half way through a series - making me miss an episode before I notice. They also are not persistent like Season Passes. And there are no wishlists.


OK thanks for this reassurance thermidor.

Yesterday I snapped up an upgraded Tivo on Ebay for £215 + £20 delivery.

This was a Lifetime machine with Cachecard with 512MB of RAM, 250Gb single hard drive and a professionally punched ethernet socket for the Cachecard on the back of the machine. The seller had only owned the machine for about a year and was moving on in an HDTV direction so a bonus would be to find the hard drive is a Samsung HA250JC (he didn't know what make it was but knew it was a single 250Gb drive).

The machine is destined for my dear old Mum who doesn't want the whole HDTV thing and cost but is always complaining there is nothing decent to watch in the evening, even though there are loads of programs at other times she likes when she isn't watching.

But then I started to have doubts after my purchase and thought about Sky + only being £15 per month now and thought about the BBC HD box coming out next year with probably a PVR facility on board too. And then about the new Freeview boxes with Series Link like the Tvonics, although only BBC channels currently support the Series Link feature. And i wondered if I had done the right thing.

Well only time will tell. It was a cracking price for the spec of box (a basic non upgraded lifetime machine sold for £143 including delivery yesterday) and although there are meant to be some marks on the case I now have a basic 40Gb unsubbed Tivo with a perfect outside case I can swap on to it if needs be.

Of course with Ebay you should never count your chickens before they are hatched but the seller seemed a very genuine guy indeed.


----------



## RichardJH (Oct 7, 2002)

Once again someone rambles on about things "off topic".

And I thought that this thread was about Carls V+/Tivo OS petition


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

RichardJH said:


> Once again someone rambles on about things "off topic".
> 
> And I thought that this thread was about Carls V+/Tivo OS petition


Well it is in the main.

But the 500 or so biggest UK Tivo enthusiasts who have all upgraded their machines have now signed it, which leaves us with either letting it go to sleep now or having another 20,000 or so Americans (who all know who Virgin Media is) also signing up to it in order to give their support to the next waive of this great American invention reaching the shores of the UK.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Yes, it does seem to have died somewhat  Damn! Only need four more too 

Besides, a little OT is fine. It's not like there's anything else to be said is there


----------



## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> But the 500 or so biggest UK Tivo enthusiasts who have all upgraded their machines have now signed it, which leaves us with either letting it go to sleep now or having another 20,000 or so Americans (who all know who Virgin Media is) also signing up to it in order to give their support to the next waive of this great American invention reaching the shores of the UK.


Seeing as it is Carl's petition, why don't we let him decide if he wants 20,000 or so Americans (who are unlikely to subscribe to Virgin Media anytime soon) to dilute his point about this British cable service?


----------



## Nebulous (Nov 28, 2005)

cwaring said:


> ...Only need four more too


Three more now..  :up:

Although there's no cable out in the sticks where I live so no chance I will benefit unless it opens up the flood gates for other manufacturers. 
I won't hold my breath though. 

And for what it's worth I think that getting thousands of americans to sign the petition would be a really bad idea. Virgin will see it as a setup and the impact will be lost.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Nebulous said:


> Although there's no cable out in the sticks where I live so no chance I will benefit


You ignore Virgin's longer term plans to offer tv everywhere in the UK using IPTV over broadband where they don't have a cable network, either via their own LLU equipment in phone exchanges or via a deal with BT wholesale for smaller phone exchanges.

When that happens the only people who won't be able to get Virgin will be people living a very long way from their telephone exchange. Of course we may be talking 3 or 4 years from now and we may be talking about BT completing their 21st Century Network upgrade project in 2011 before Virgin can be available everywhere in the UK.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> Seeing as it is Carl's petition, why don't we let him decide if he wants 20,000 or so Americans (who are unlikely to subscribe to Virgin Media anytime soon) to dilute his point about this British cable service?


Thanks and, indeed, not gonna happen 



Pete77 said:


> You ignore Virgin's longer term plans...


Assuming he's even heard of them, of course


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Assuming he's even heard of them, of course


I didn't say he had heard of them though. Just implied he wasn't taking them into account.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well if he hadn't heard of them, how could he "take them into account"?


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

*500* signatures now. Looks like there might not be too many more though.


----------



## Nero2 (Aug 22, 2005)

A bit late to te party, but I've just signed.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Nero2 said:


> A bit late to te party, but I've just signed.


Better late than never.


----------



## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Carl

May I ask the significance of having 500 "signatures"? I'm confused about the "3 more to go" etc. Is this just a target, or is there some rule that for a petition to be valid it must have at least 500 signaturies? (I just read that and it might sound a bit arsey - genuinely not intended to be, I'm just curious.)

Also, what is your next plan of action? Are you going to try and make very senior VM figues aware of this as previously suggested?

Are you going to include some figures to "big up" the 500 e.g. z000 original tivo owners, of whom x% are still tivo owners of whom y% will know about the petition.

Again, just interested in how things are going to develop.

Thanks


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Raisltin Majere said:


> May I ask the significance of having 500 "signatures"? I'm confused about the "3 more to go" etc. Is this just a target, or is there some rule that for a petition to be valid it must have at least 500 signaturies? (I just read that and it might sound a bit arsey - genuinely not intended to be, I'm just curious.)
> 
> Also, what is your next plan of action? Are you going to try and make very senior VM figues aware of this as previously suggested?


Getting to 500 compared to 499 is only significant only in the same way that reaching 100 is significant compared to being on 99 and reaching 1,000 is significant compared to being on 999. That is reaching a nice big round number.

Carl has been monitoring the speed of signups along with myself and others and has clearly observed the bell curve effect where after a slower start signatures then rapidly snowballed from 100 to 400 and then began to slow up very quickly and took a long time to reach 500. This suggests a maximum limit on the number of active UK Tivo users who regularly visit this forum along with say perhaps a couple of hundred people in the TivoHeaven customer base who were emailed and also signed.

Anyone who has observed how votes pile up in an election count or total seat results come in during a UK election night etc, etc will realise that there is a huge rush of activity in the middle then its very slow indeed at the end.

If you think of this forum you can't really think of more than 100 or so names that are posting quite often. Then there are another 100 who post quite a lot less often and another 100 who only post very occasionally. Based on all that we just aren't going to hit 1,000 signatures from the UK Tivo owning customer base unless we had access to the Sky database to email them all (although perhaps Sky only has phone numbers come to think of it) . So hitting 500 is significant as its exactly half a way to a thousand and perhaps the last big number ending 00 the petition will hit, although conceivably it will crawl on to 600 signatures in the end. Unless that is Carl decicdes to enlist the support of our US Tivo owning cousins. 

I hope these thoughts help.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> May I ask the significance of having 500 "signatures"? I'm confused about the "3 more to go" etc. Is this just a target, or is there some rule that for a petition to be valid it must have at least 500 signaturies? (I just read that and it might sound a bit arsey - genuinely not intended to be, I'm just curious.)





Pete77 said:


> Getting to 500 compared to 499 is only significant only in the same way that reaching 100 is significant compared to being on 99 and reaching 1,000 is significant compared to being on 999. That is reaching a nice big round number.
> 
> Carl has been monitoring the speed of signups along with myself and others and has clearly observed the bell curve effect where after a slower start signatures then rapidly snowballed from 100 to 400 and then began to slow up very quickly and took a long time to reach 500. This suggests a maximum limit on the number of active UK Tivo users who regularly visit this forum along with say perhaps a couple of hundred people in the TivoHeaven customer base who were emailed and also signed.


What he said  (Apart from the "bell curve" thing. Might have to look that one up)



Raisltin Majere said:


> Also, what is your next plan of action? Are you going to try and make very senior VM figues aware of this as previously suggested?


Well, the three most relevant people already know about the Petition. I might just email a certain Richard Branson as well 



Raisltin Majere said:


> Are you going to include some figures to "big up" the 500 e.g. z000 original tivo owners, of whom x% are still tivo owners of whom y% will know about the petition.


If someone on here could supply such figures (I can get the number of current V+ box owners from VM themselves; or at least their Q1 results!)



Raisltin Majere said:


> Again, just interested in how things are going to develop.


No problem. If anyone has any suggestions I'll be only too pleased to action them.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> What he said  (Apart from the "bell curve" thing. Might have to look that one up)


The Bell Curve effect just implies there is most activity in the middle of the graph. So the most signups per hour between 100 and 350 signatures say.


----------



## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

Carl -

ANy merit in posting the link to the various Virgin TV groups on Facebook?


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I've just had a look and I can't find any. Am I missing something?


----------



## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

Hmmm... I did quick search in Groups for "Virgin" and found quite a few that had the Virgin logo and suitable looking names (like "One in the eye for Sky", and so on). I'll have another look.


----------



## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

OK, there's ...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2258038110
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2246763545
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2247174463
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2249907806
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2246958923
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2310953643


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ndunlavey said:


> OK, there's ...


Oh, right. I should have tried being more creative that just "Virgin Media" I suppose  Thanks for those.

Hmmm. why didn't my search bring up that second group? 

Okay. Having looked at them all, I really don't want to be associated with _any_ of those groups, except _maybe_ the first one.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Having looked at them all, I really don't want to be associated with _any_ of those groups, except _maybe_ the first one.


Suffice it to say Facebook type people are not really Tivo type people on the whole.

Apart from anything else there is a 20 to 25 year so age gap in most cases, with certain notable exceptions of course.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Interstingly, and somewhat confusingly, someone just posted this link on my similar thread over on the DS Forums...

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=934716

I'm now completely  'cos I don't remember that happening. Okay, I wasn't in an NTL area at the time, but I assume it would have been all over _this_ forum.


----------



## the_hut (Dec 31, 2001)

Harking back to a half hearted alliance between a failing cable operator and a failing PVR supplier from half a decade ago isn't really going to help your cause, I suspect. It was all discussed fairly widely here at the time. Search if you don't believe me. In fact, I seem to remeber crossing sabres with Automan on whether it was a good or a bad thing...


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Damn! Must be getting old. Say about 40  I mis-read the year. I think read the date as a US date or something


----------



## Andy Leitch (Apr 30, 2005)

I agree wholeheartedly with the intention of the petition but as cable will never be available in my part of rural scotland, I don't think it's right to skew the petition by adding my name. 
A' the best tho.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Andy Leitch said:


> .. but as cable will never be available in my part of rural scotland, I don't think it's right to skew the petition by adding my name.
> A' the best tho.


Hasn't stopped others from signing. However, fair enough and I'm not forcing anyone


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Andy Leitch said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with the intention of the petition but as cable will never be available in my part of rural scotland, I don't think it's right to skew the petition by adding my name. A' the best tho.


But Virgin Media will reach your area in two or three years using IPTV via rollout on BT Wholesale's ADSL broadband network in conjunction with their new 21st century network backbone and new IP based exchange switching (to be completed between 2008 and 2011 depending on your exchange). Check www.samknows.com to check out when your exchange will be enabled for BT's 21st Century Network.

When you say Cable won't reach you then you are thinking in yesterday's tv platform terms. Virgin Media is committed to reaching everywhere in the UK in the mid to long term so it can go head to head with Sky.


----------



## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> But Virgin Media will reach your area in two or three years using IPTV via rollout on BT Wholesale's ADSL broadband network


Indeed. When I was still working at Adastral Park (BTs R & D site in Martlesham), one of the demos that was running was a VDSL demo giving 3 broadcast quality TV channels and Broadband and phone over a single line.

That would allow a broadband connected box to record two streams and view another just like a 3 tuner cable box.

There is also no logical reason why Virgin Media couldnt decide to launch a satellite based service to provide coverage to the whole country just as SKY do.

Given the importance put on Corporate branding etc, its a fair bet that if Tivo was adopted as the interface for a V+ box it would then also be used on any other Broadband/Satellite boxes launched by the company.


----------



## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

katman said:


> Indeed. When I was still working at Adastral Park (BTs R & D site in Martlesham)


Oooo, I used to work there too 

Ian


----------



## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

OT and flaming post have been removed - note new sticky thread - end of discussion!


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I see that signatures have now reached 535. Many thanks to ozsat for his wisdom in agreeing to reopen this important thread for further relevant On Topic discussions. :up:


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Agreed. So let's not go getting it locked again. Okay?!!


----------



## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

katman said:


> There is also no logical reason why Virgin Media couldnt decide to launch a satellite based service to provide coverage to the whole country just as SKY do.


I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if there are any licensing/regulatory barriers, or is it just a commercial decision. Of course, I'm not sure that Virgin Media is best placed financially for the sorts of investment that would be needed. I wonder how easy it would be to change the input module on the current VM boxes.


----------



## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

mjk said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if there are any licensing/regulatory barriers, or is it just a commercial decision.


I cant see that the regulators would be against something offering a choice to compete with the effective monopoly that SKY currently have. I would hope not anyway.

Is the BBC/ITV Freesat platform being hosted on the current satellites, new satellites in the same postion, or a completely new spot in the sky ^H^H^H Clarkes Belt (decided SKY was not the best word to use LOL )

I would imagine that expansion via satellite would be significantly cheaper than any expansion of the current cable infrasructure and would open up the service to the whole country rather than just those in the cabled area.


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

katman said:


> I would imagine that expansion via satellite would be significantly cheaper than any expansion of the current cable infrasructure and would open up the service to the whole country rather than just those in the cabled area.


Expansion via IPTV over the BT ADSL brodband network with LLUs in larger exchanges in non cabled areas would be a much cheaper approach than running their own satellites. Satellite doesn't get to everyone because of all the hassles with installing satellite in flats.

The snag is that BT's broadband network won't be up fully to the job till their 21st Century Network is complete in 2011 and people 2 or 3 miles from the exchange would certainly find they could probably only get SDTV and not HDTV.

If people are prepared to watch on an Anytime basis it can be done sooner but the fact is that there are lots of programs people want to watch live and that demands a high speed stable broadband connection.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

katman said:


> I cant see that the regulators would be against something offering a choice to compete with the effective monopoly that SKY currently have. I would hope not anyway.
> 
> Is the BBC/ITV Freesat platform being hosted on the current satellites, new satellites in the same postion, or a completely new spot in the sky ^H^H^H Clarkes Belt (decided SKY was not the best word to use LOL )
> 
> I would imagine that expansion via satellite would be significantly cheaper than any expansion of the current cable infrasructure and would open up the service to the whole country rather than just those in the cabled area.


No-one owns their own satellite, they rent transponder space from Astra. Virgin already do that - they broadcast their own channels, Sky doesn't do it for them. Sky manage the EPG and the encryption.

As for creating a rival box which can only access Virgin's channels and not Sky's - doesn't sound like an instant win to me!


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> As for creating a rival box which can only access Virgin's channels and not Sky's - doesn't sound like an instant win to me!


A box which chouldn't access Sky's prime sports channels would be disastrous for the time being.

But a Virgin box which could offer some crucial Sky content as well as more Virgin channels a lot cheaper than Sky might well work.

Although for people on Sky (Easynet) LLU exchanges Sky now looks like a much better deal price wise.


----------



## Prat77 (Apr 14, 2007)

Pete77 said:


> But Virgin Media will reach your area in two or three years using IPTV via rollout on BT Wholesale's ADSL broadband network in conjunction with their new 21st century network backbone and new IP based exchange switching


Hardly! VM have no money for significant capital investment, and their main priority is to extract as much money as possible from customers who live next to their existing cable.


----------



## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

The problem I can seewith IPTV is that I have 4 Sky STBs in the house, and am seriously thinking of either putting in an octal LNB of a switch to allow more outlets. I can't see IPTV ever finding enough bandwidth to deliver me 4+ video streams simultaneously, especially if HD ever reaches a significant number of channels. I live reasonably close (less than 2 miles) to the Inverness MacDui exchange but my downlink is rarely gets above 1.5Mb/s during peak times. If I moved out into the wilds of the Highlands, there are still places where broadband is unobtainable at all, let alone at speeds over 256k.

For IPTV to be practical, I think we need fibre to the home, or at least to a neighbourhood cabinet. Given that BT isn't planning on replacing the local copper with fibre, it seems to me that satellite is the only practical universal high-speed distribution mechanism.

I don't know anything about how the satellite distribution business works, but I suspect that uplink stations are significantly cheaper than cabling even a small town, plus the technology is so much less disruptive to install. And as for the business model, it seems to me that it ought to be possible to come up with one where there are multiple aggregators selling channel packages, as Sky does now, but all using the same uplinked channels. Thus Sky (or VM) would sell the subscriptions, and provide the STBs which would provide access to those channels for which they have purchased distribution rights.

The current model, in which I understand channels pay Sky to be in the EPG and available through the STB, has always seemed completely the wrong way round to me. 

Does that make sense, or am I being naive/missing some essential point entirely? We need to find a way to bring some competition into the satellite business,and the same principle could be applied to the cable infrastructure if Sky wanted to compete there. LLU for cable systems!


----------



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Prat77 said:


> Hardly! VM have no money for significant capital investment, and their main priority is to extract as much money as possible from customers who live next to their existing cable.


But they aren't making the investment are they? BT is making the investment for them and then any extra costs they acquire in eventually using the new BT network are immediately defrayed by extra subscriber revenue from new Virgin Tv subscribers.


----------



## mjk (Mar 13, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> A box which chouldn't access Sky's prime sports channels would be disastrous for the time being.


I'd actually pay extra for that one!!


----------



## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

mjk said:


> we need fibre to the home, or at least to a neighbourhood cabinet.


Achievable bandwidth on copper pair is still rising. COLT say they can offer (uncontended) 2Mbps+ over a single copper pair where the LL is unbundled, terminating on and Ethernet connector in the premises. Where mutliple pairs can be run, that increases linearly.
Also, there's the increasing feasibility of wireless local loop, avoiding the reliance on BT's copper - 1.4Mbps (uncontended) is quite common now, and it's rising.
Finally, BT will see the light, and I am confident that they'll start replacing end-of-life copper with fibre to the premises.


----------



## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> But they aren't making the investment are they? BT is making the investment for them and then any extra costs they acquire in eventually using the new BT network are immediately defrayed by extra subscriber revenue from new Virgin Tv subscribers.


I'm deeply unconvinced by IPTV as a primary TV source in this world of HD and with multiple TVs per household. I watch streaming video through my media centre at VHS-ish quality and it's still susceptible to stuttering etc on a 2mbps line. I reckon you'd need 12-15mbps of reliable peak time connection to support two broadcast quality streams, and we're way off that for most people.


----------



## JonO (Oct 9, 2002)

Late to the party I know, but only just seen this thread (not been here in a while).
So signed up even though cable (like for others) stops 100 yds away from my house.
Good thread + petition Carl.
I live in hope.
(More desperate for a new HD TiVo having now got a flat panel, and failed with MythTV, so sticking with mode 0 + component out)


----------



## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

See here


----------



## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Carl

Did you make VM aware of this?

Any response?


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Yes. Sort of. I told my contact about it and he passed the email onto the three 'top' people who were in any way responsible for the V+ Box. No response so far. Might chase it up sometime.


----------



## merlin (Jul 22, 2002)

Just seen this..... and have also signed....


----------

