# TiVo Dumps the Dish



## Solon_Long (Apr 4, 2005)

Why in the world is the new Tivo Series 3 not supporting the 20 million or so Dish Network/Direct TV uses with it's new HD unit? If the real point is HD content then the Satellite services are way ahead of cable in their ability to provide HD content. The last that I heard both Dish and Direct are going to soon offer the capability to receive 1000 channels in HD. That means your local broadcast channels and every "cable" channel will have the bandwidth to go to HD. When if ever will cable be able to provide such a service? I simply cannot fathom TiVo's decision not to put an HD capable input on the series 3 (HDMI with HDCP or Component). IMHO this is a major/potentially fatal design flaw/omission and it can only be deliberate. What is the explanation?


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I am more upset they took the night light off the front


----------



## netposer (Jul 23, 2004)

Solon_Long said:


> Why in the world is the new Tivo Series 3 not supporting the 20 million or so Dish Network/Direct TV uses with it's new HD unit? If the real point is HD content then the Satellite services are way ahead of cable in their ability to provide HD content. The last that I heard both Dish and Direct are going to soon offer the capability to receive 1000 channels in HD. That means your local broadcast channels and every "cable" channel will have the bandwidth to go to HD. When if ever will cable be able to provide such a service? I simply cannot fathom TiVo's decision not to put an HD capable input on the series 3 (HDMI with HDCP or Component). IMHO this is a major/potentially fatal design flaw/omission and it can only be deliberate. What is the explanation?


I agree. Where I live I get crappy Adelphia (read, no HD, no digital, and no Internet) or Dish/DirecTV


----------



## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Because building a receiver for DirecTV or Dish requires their cooperation. Unlike the new CableCARD spec, the sat companies encryption is proprietary to them so you can't build a box that decrypts their signal without their ok. Think about it. If Tivo could build DirecTV DVRs on their own they'd still be making the DirecTV Tivos whether DirecTV was on board or not, wouldn't they?

The point of the CC box isn't just HD content, it's also about an integrated dual-tuner cable DVR, which, were it not for the recently-mandated cablecard spec, Tivo wouldn't be able to do for cable either without the cable companies cooperation.


----------



## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Part of the 'logic' behind this decision may be what we don't know. The surprise announcement that hasn't been made... and may not be made at this CES.. but may be made down the road.

And part of the logic may be that TIVO has been frozen out of that market essentially so *%&$ them... hard to say at this point.


----------



## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Quite simply, they cannot produce, or more accurately, would have to partner with each provider to produce a DVR compatible with each provider, which their buisness relationships with each provider prevents that, as there is no "universal" technology like Cablecard for satellite (well there is, but the FCC has chosen not to require it, nor have the providers chosen to voluntarily make use of it).

They cannot manufacture a component or HDMI input recorder, for reasons discussed in other threads, so their only option for HD is a digital tuner DVR, and that means, from a buisness/regulatory perspective, only an ATSC/Cablecard is viable.

For satellite subscribers, TiVo will still support them with the existing Series 2 platform.


----------



## Solon_Long (Apr 4, 2005)

The tivo S3 doesn't have to be an "integrated box" like the Directivos. All it has to do is what the existing Series 2 unit currently does - which is control a HD capable Dish or Direct TV receiver by IR or serial and accept the HD output of that receiver, record it and output the HD signal to a monitor. I don't want an integrated box. I want a true "standalone" HD capable DVR and I prefer the Tivo interface. But I guess I'll have to give replay or other competitors a look now that TiVo has climbed into bed with the cable companies.


----------



## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Solon_Long said:


> Why in the world is the new Tivo Series 3 not supporting the 20 million or so Dish Network/Direct TV uses with it's new HD unit? ... What is the explanation?


Maybe it's got something to do with the DVB standard's new Digital Copy Protection and Copy Management directives on preventing the recording of hd content?

Why have the inputs if you can't use 'em?


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Solon_Long said:


> I simply cannot fathom TiVo's decision not to put an HD capable input on the series 3 (HDMI with HDCP or Component). IMHO this is a major/potentially fatal design flaw/omission and it can only be deliberate. What is the explanation?


The ability to record in HD from an HDMI or Component input would add at least a good $5k to the price of the box ...

Ie, you could buy a Dish HD DVR and DirectTV HD DVR and CableCard Tivo ... and it would still cost less than a DVR with uncompressed HD input (Component or HDMI).


----------



## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

Solon_Long said:


> I simply cannot fathom TiVo's decision not to put an HD capable input on the series 3 (HDMI with HDCP or Component). IMHO this is a major/potentially fatal design flaw/omission and it can only be deliberate. What is the explanation?


It costs many thousands of dollars to record from an uncompressed signal such as HDMI/DVI and component.

As others have pointed out, the only way for them to record HD from satellite would be for them to make agreements with Dish and Directv. Not gonna happen.


----------



## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

> All it has to do is what the existing Series 2 unit currently does - which is control a HD capable Dish or Direct TV receiver by IR or serial and accept the HD output of that receiver, record it and output the HD signal to a monitor. I don't want an integrated box. I want a true "standalone" HD capable DVR and I prefer the Tivo interface. But I guess I'll have to give replay or other competitors a look now that TiVo has climbed into bed with the cable companies.


The technology doesn't exist to do that yet in a mass-market consumer device. When a chipset manufacturer like Broadcom offers a low-cost solution with real-time H.264 encoding for high-definition, then you might see such devices, but those are probably three to five years off. By then, some high-def content will probably only be available through HDCP (encryption), meaning you wouldn't be able to record it with this approach.


----------



## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Solon_Long said:


> The tivo S3 doesn't have to be an "integrated box" like the Directivos. All it has to do is what the existing Series 2 unit currently does


Yes it does. If it didn't DirecTV customers wouldn't have chosen DirecTivos over standalones in such overwhelming numbers. The R15 may be crap compared to the DirecTivo, but I'll wager it'll do much better among DirecTV subscribers than standalone Tivos will because it's a single box with two tuners instead of a single tuner that requires two boxes.


> I don't want an integrated box. I want a true "standalone" HD capable DVR


You're in a minority. Most people don't want the extra boxes, wires, and connection hassles required to record _one_ show at a time on a standalone DVR, never mind the four boxes required to record two shows (three if there was such a thing as a true dual-tuner standalone, but _nobody_ makes one of those - ask yourself why).


> But I guess I'll have to give replay or other competitors a look


You do know ReplayTV has never offered anything thats dual tuner OR high definition OR cable integrated OR satellite integrated, don't you? If you're willing to go the PC DVR route then _maybe_ their upcoming ReplayPC software will do some of those things, but it won't record HD from HDMI for reasons already given in this thread. Right now threatening to go to ReplayTV over this sounds only slightly less silly than a threat to switch to VHS would.


> now that TiVo has climbed into bed with the cable companies.


The CableCARD spec doesn't require "climbing into bed with cable" (though of course the Comcast Tivo did). CableCARD is an FCC mandated standard (which cable companies fought against) that any electronics company can build to without the consent of any cable company, and any company serious about being in the DVR business would be foolish not to produce a CC product.


----------



## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Solon_Long said:


> But I guess I'll have to give replay or other competitors a look now that TiVo has climbed into bed with the cable companies.


Yeah, good luck finding that HD-Replay unit.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bidger said:


> Yeah, good luck finding that HD-Replay unit.


maybe he should look into the Mac Mini for Satellite  oh wait


----------



## Oknarf (Oct 30, 2003)

Solon_Long said:


> ...If the real point is HD content then the Satellite services are way ahead of cable in their ability to provide HD content. The last that I heard both Dish and Direct are going to soon offer the capability to receive 1000 channels in HD. ...


What are you smoking? Those 1000 channels will be ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox for local markets. Cable is WAY ahead of the satellite co's when it comes to HD.

I'm on board and waiting to switch. Bring it on.


----------



## Solon_Long (Apr 4, 2005)

What am I smoking? Let's see - currently with comcast I can get a total of 8 HD channels - and they have no plans to expand their offerings anytime soon. With Dish right now I can get about 20 HD channels and they and Direct have announced plans to provide local channels in HD and plus any other cable offerings that would like to begin broadcasting in HD. Top 100 markets X avg 7 HD locals = 700 Channels. Which leaves 300 channels for Sci-Fi, TCM, AMC, Outdoors, Spike, etc, etc, etc. 

I was unaware that you cannot currently use a HDMI or Composite output to record on a PVR. It seems like a odd limitation but if the case then so be it. However, even with that limitation most of you have missed the real point. It's about availability of HD content. If you are serious about HD you are already with Dishnetwork or Direct. They are the ones who are serious about offering more HD content. Why buy a HD tivo when I am restricted to the tiny offering of HD content on Cable when Satellite will shortly have the capability to offer me almost all available HD content? And OTA reception of HD is just not feasible for huge numbers of people - especially if you live in a city - like Atlanta or Chattanooga - where the ground tends not to be flat. Not to mention that only Sat can offer channels from outside the US - like South America, Europe and Asia. Dish does huge business with it's Latino offerings. It seems like a really poor business decision to just ignore all that market. 

It's really to bad. I've had a Tivo since Sept 1999. I've got 3 series 1 and a series 2. I've sold dozens of friends on the technology but this a major dissappoinment. TiVo won't be getting any of my business anytime soon if this is their decision.


----------



## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Solon_Long said:


> What am I smoking? Let's see - currently with comcast I can get a total of 8 HD channels - and they have no plans to expand their offerings anytime soon. With Dish right now I can get about 20 HD channels and they and Direct have announced plans to provide local channels in HD and plus any other cable offerings that would like to begin broadcasting in HD. Top 100 markets X avg 7 HD locals = 700 Channels. Which leaves 300 channels for Sci-Fi, TCM, AMC, Outdoors, Spike, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> If you are serious about HD you are already with Dishnetwork.


Well I get the following 16 channels from my local Comcast and they insting there are more in the pipeline:

200 2Comcast Sportsnet HD 
202 ESPN HD 
205 Discovery HD Theater 
206 INHD 
207 INHD2 
215 & 300 HBO HDTV 
219 & 319 Cinemax HDTV 
223 & 339 Showtime HDTV 
227 & 369 STARZ HDTV 
231 WPVI-DT (ABC-HD) 
232 WCAU-DT (NBC-HD) 
233 KYW-DT (CBS-HD) 
234 WTXF-DT (FOX-HD) 
235 WPHL-DT (WB-HD) 
236 WPSG-DT (UPN-HD) 
240 WHYY-DT (PBS-HD)

What is the point of boasting about 700 channels when there are 100 ABC's 100 CBS etc of which you MAY get one of each.

The Voom channels do give Dish a few more but the DVR is a POS making the service a POS as well.


----------



## Solon_Long (Apr 4, 2005)

Well, it must be nice to live in a privileged market. I can get: 

ESPN HD 
Discovery HD Theater 
INHD 
INHD2 
TNT HD 
HBO HDTV 
Showtime HD 
CBS HD 

And my local comcast says they have no plans to add any additional channels in the foreseeable future.


----------



## maharg18 (Dec 4, 2002)

Solon_Long said:


> TiVo won't be getting any of my business anytime soon if this is their decision.


How is it Tivo's decision? Directv dumped them for their own in-house product. Dish isn't interested in them either. Tivo's hands are tied, there's nothing they can do for the satellite market concerning HD.


----------



## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Wow... you made me look.... I had no idea my local cable co had 20 hd channels (not counting ppv and on-demand)

1- WESH (NBC) HD 
2- WKMG (CBS) HD 
3- WFTV (ABC) HD 
4- WMFE(PBS) HD
5- WMFE-Encore HD 
6- WOFL (FOX) HD 
7- WCEU (PBS) HD 
8- WRBW (UPN) HD 
9- WKCF (WB) HD 
11- HBO (HDTV)
12- Showtime (HDTV)
13- INHD 
14- INHD2 
15- HDNet 
16- HDNet Movies 
17- Universal HD
18- TNT HD 
19- ESPN HD
20- Discovery HD


----------



## Solon_Long (Apr 4, 2005)

Perhaps they didn't offer a good enough deal. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money and with what 30% or so of Tivo's current customers being on Direct and I wonder what percentage using dish - where do you suppose allot of their future revenue is going to come from? Especially if this Series 3 may not be available until 3 or more like 4th quarter. I used to hate the financial guys running down TiVo because it was such a great product - but maybe they know what they are talking about.


----------



## Solon_Long (Apr 4, 2005)

Once again - it must be nice to live in a privileged market. But Dish is going to offer all that and more shortly. Just look at their CES announcements.


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

classicsat said:


> ..there is no "universal" technology like Cablecard for satellite (well there is, but the FCC has chosen not to require it, nor have the providers chosen to voluntarily make use of it).


Did you mean DVB- isn't that a mandated standard in the EU?


----------



## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

TiVO has been frozen out of the satellite market (for now at least) .. we've known that for a long time.

To act surprised that a CABLECARD TIVo doesn't support satellite is... well.. very surprising to me.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Solon_Long said:


> Perhaps they didn't offer a good enough deal. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money and with what 30% or so of Tivo's current customers being on Direct and I wonder what percentage using dish - where do you suppose allot of their future revenue is going to come from? Especially if this Series 3 may not be available until 3 or more like 4th quarter. I used to hate the financial guys running down TiVo because it was such a great product - but maybe they know what they are talking about.


well now you are just posting sour grapes becasue your provider is not included.
TiVo gets the revenue through 2006 still on DirectTV - I think it is early 2007 it expires.

I suspect a lot of second half 2006 revenue is going to come from all the people drooling kool aid here over this series 3 and ready to drop $800 just for the hardware 

and are the Dish people going to drop the S2 TiVos and use the DISH POS DVR just becasue they can not use the S3  Sure some will go for HD on Dish but that percentage is just not worth the -- say it with me this time so we all hear it -- $5,000 to be able to record HD off a component input


----------



## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

maharg18 said:


> How is it Tivo's decision? Directv dumped them for their own in-house product. Dish isn't interested in them either. Tivo's hands are tied, there's nothing they can do for the satellite market concerning HD.


When someone starts out with "People want an HD satellite box, so Tivo should make one! Why don't they?" (a reasonable, if uninformed question) then after it's been explained to him why Tivo can't just make a DirecTV or Dish box on their own, and why the lack of such a box is not Tivos fault, he replies with "But people want an HD satellite box so Tivo should make one, and I'm not buying anything else from them until they do!" one has to wonder if trying to explain again is a good idea.


----------



## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

DrStrange said:


> When someone starts out with "People want an HD satellite box, so Tivo should make one! Why don't they?" (a reasonable, if uninformed question) then after it's been explained to him why Tivo can't just make a DirecTV or Dish box on their own, and why the lack of such a box is not Tivos fault, he replies with "But people want an HD satellite box so Tivo should make one, and I'm not buying anything else from them until they do!" one has to wonder if trying to explain again is a good idea.


oh sure use logic and confuse everybody why don't you 

plus I liked his "people wnat an HD satellite box so TiVo should give more money to the satellite companies to be allowed to make one"


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Solon_Long said:


> Perhaps they didn't offer a good enough deal. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money and with what 30% or so of Tivo's current customers being on Direct and I wonder what percentage using dish - where do you suppose allot of their future revenue is going to come from? Especially if this Series 3 may not be available until 3 or more like 4th quarter. I used to hate the financial guys running down TiVo because it was such a great product - but maybe they know what they are talking about.


You are aware that Tivo and Dish aren't exactly getting along right now, aren't you?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=280434


----------



## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

From their respective websites:


What my cable company offers in HD:

ABC HD
CBS HDTV
Cinemax HD
ESPN HDTV
FOX HDTV
FOX Sports Net NY HDTV
HBO HD
Hi-Def on Demand
INHD
MSG Network HDTV
NBC HDTV
Showtime HD
Starz HD
Thirteen HDTV
TMC HD
Universal HDTV
WB HD
YES HD

What Dish Network offers:

ANIMANIA HD
CBS HDTV
DISCOVERY HD
DISH Network Pay-Per-View in HD
EQUATOR HD
ESPNHD
GALLERY HD
GUY TV HD
HBO HDTV
HDNET - Channel
HDNET MOVIES
HD News
MAJESTIC HD
MONSTERS HD
RAVE HD
RUSH HD
Showtime HDTV
TNT in HD
ULTRA HD 



So it really depends on your area... it's not really "more" in my area, just different.


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Solon_Long said:


> I was unaware that you cannot currently use a HDMI or Composite output to record on a PVR. It seems like a odd limitation but if the case then so be it.


 As stated frequently elsewhere- there are two kinds of recordings that DVRs do. Recording of digital content, and recording of analog content. CE vendors are not supposed to build things that record the digital content on the HDMI cable because the Studios fear that everyone will make copies of everyone elses content, and they will be out of business inside a decade. And they are right. The idea of doing it upstream in the Box itself is that you can identify the source of the show, and whether it is legally copyable to DVR- HBO-NO, OTA, YES. But doing a digital copy in the box requires a third party vendor to either support cablecard or a not-yet-required-by-the-FCC Satellite transmission standard. So Digital Broadcast Satellite users are hosed, and the DBS carriers like it that way because the only way you can use their gasoline is to buy their Cars, thus locking you in. Vendor Lock in is their strategy. That is why they want you to buy their DVR for $799 or whatever. IF you get pissed off about them not carrying some game, or dropping a channel- what are you going to do- kiss away $800 and go through the hassle of switching?

OK so that leaves analog. Current technology allows chips that can encode analog signals to digital in real time only for lower resolutions. The good news is that the technology is coming down in price. At CES this year is a nifty HD camcorder below $800. That means the chips that do the encoding may soon be in a price range that CE vendors can use them in boxes that normal mortals can afford. Of course professionals have such boxes, and you can buy them, but you are talking minimum multiple thousands of dollars, and weird inputs like SDI which non pros don't use.

The long and short of it is that that the Satellite Companies have their little fiefdoms and they call the shots. If you think it is anti competitive and "monoplistic" like abuse of market power (I do), then it is important to be aware of the political dimension of the issue. This year, Congress could strip the FCC of what little power it has to curb the abuses that the carriers have been guilty of over the last decade. It's annoying to have to deal with the stinkers and unpleasant politics, but that's the reality.

The carriers are fighting a multi dimensional battle, and they are using the gubmint as a weapon to keep you paying high bills for content.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

To be honest I think TiVo is being a little short sighted. The vast majority of people still only get standard def signals from Dish/Direct and will for sometime. 

Being able to use a dual tuner TiVo the same way you can currently use a series 2 TiVo for anyone with a standard satellite box would be great. The Dish standard box has dual tuners in it now so with a dual tuner TiVo, that could control it, you would have a full dual tuner setup with just 2 boxes. Also many people who get satellite still receive there locals OTA so again a dual tuner TiVo would be very advantageous. 

Right now I have a TiVo for over the air and a Dish 510 DVR for satellite and do not plan on buying a HD TV for several years, but I would look at buying a new series 3 TiVo now if it could control a standard Dish box with it and it could down convert the OTA digital signals for use on my old analog TV. 

Thanks,

atmuscarella


----------



## hongcho (Nov 26, 2003)

This is/was TiVo's only choice. TiVo is at a legal war with Dish. DirecTV dumps TiVo for NDS. Satellite services use proprietery encryption system just like pre-CableCard cable TVs. So, without their cooperation, they cannot record encrypted signals.

Recording component (analog HD) video or HDMI/DVI (uncompressed digital HD) signals add prohibitive cost (i.e., there is no cheap solution for consumers, just $1000+ per encoder/tuner for commercial uses) on top of the copy-right issues.

What else can it do? Obviously, unencrypted cable signals, CableCard and OTA. And these are exactly what Series 3 is addressing.

Hong.


----------



## mec1991 (Nov 5, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I am more upset they took the night light off the front


Zeo, now I see what you meant in the other thread; I had no idea some clown had had already started a thread like this. Doesn't take them long to crawl out of the woodwork, does it?


----------



## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> To be honest I think TiVo is being a little short sighted. The vast majority of people still only get standard def signals from Dish/Direct and will for sometime.


How is Tivo being short sighted?

They can't record DBS signals without the DBS vendors co-operating. The DBS vendors don't want to cooperate. So the most you could ever get out of DBS, from TiVo's perspective, is Standard Definition. There is no way to record HD "out of band" - i.e. HDMI to HDMI - so that isn't even on the table. If you are restricted to SD only, Tivo already has an excellent box, the series 2, that does a great job with analog SD signals.

As for supporting two analog inputs that support external converter boxes - heck, people can't plug Tivo into their home entertainment systems now with just one converter box - how the heck do you expect them to set up two external cable/DBS boxes and ensure that the IR blasters don't interfere with each other, and keep all the cabling straight? All that just for standard definition? Again, you would be better off with two Series 2 TiVo's linked via Home Media. The only thing that would be missing is automatic conflict between the tuners located in separate boxes vs. two tuners in one box.

Don't like the fact that Tivo is froze out of the DBS market? Write your congressman and the FCC about their monopolistic practices over public airwaves - don't whine that Tivo is being short sighted, because you can't be short sighted in not supporting something if there isn't anything to support in the first place!!

The whole satellite thing is a red herring, and there isn't one thing TiVo can do about it. If TiVo does ship the S3 this century, and if it looks as good as it does, my parents will be ditching DirecTV. I will remain with Comcast. DirecTV will be getting copies two cable bills and an explanation of why they lost one customer and didn't gain another. That's the only thing (other than an FCC mandate to support cable card - right!) that will get their attention  Don't ever expect anything from E* - those folks are completely delusional - they think they have great equipment when in *my* experience and *opinion* it is the cheapest, buggiest and butt-ugliest of any I have ever used. I like E*'s channel lineup better, but never could stomach their crap equipment. Well, the cable card TiVo made my selection process a no brainer now - choose neither!

/me hoping Verizon FIOS supports cable card and hurry up in getting here within the next year!


----------



## Gene S (Feb 11, 2003)

Solon_Long said:


> Well, it must be nice to live in a privileged market. I can get:
> 
> ESPN HD
> Discovery HD Theater
> ...


Just curious, where is your local market?
I wouldn't trust anything your cable company says. Most of the people you talk to on the phone are just reading off a script and have no clue of what you are really asking them. Go here to the AVS local HD forum and look for your city for some real answers.


----------



## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

hongcho & DocNo,

I agree that TiVo has no option when it comes to satellite providers and HD TV. However if you read my post I was not talking about HD TV, so let me see if I get this right:


TiVo Series 2 boxes work just fine with millions of Dish and Direct SD boxes. 
TiVo Series 2 boxes work just fine with millions of cable boxes. 
TiVo Series 3 will not work with any satellite or cable boxes. 

And somehow it is not TiVo's discission to dump support for satellite and cable boxes with their Series 3?

Remember it's not just the people with satellite boxes that are being abandoned with the Series 3, its also anyone with a cable box from a small cable provider who isn't going to provide cable cards. From reading other posts only the big 6 cable providers are being required by the FCC to provide cable cards.

TiVo has apparently decided it doesn't make business sense to support people with SD satellite and cable boxes with their Series 3. I am also fairly sure you can make the case that the series 2 boxes are good enough for anyone who will not be able to use cable cards. But as one of the millions of people who do not have access to a cable card service I can tell you, I think it stinks.

Thanks,

atmuscarella


----------



## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> And somehow it is not TiVo's discission to dump support for satellite and cable boxes with their Series 3?


So buy a series 2. Sheesh. They still sell it. You can still buy it. Nobody has said they're discontinuing it, or if they do that they won't replace it with something comparable.

I don't remember...was there the same reaction when the DirecTivos came out? "The DirecTivo doesn't support cable! It doesn't support recording from set top boxes! When they discontinue the series 1 Tivo won't have a model you can use with a cable box, ever ever ever! Tivo has abandoned cable users! Now that they've jumped into bed with satellite I'll be forced to look into ReplayTV!" etc etc.


----------



## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

atmuscarella said:


> TiVo Series 3 will not work with any satellite or cable boxes.


TiVo Series 3 *is* the cable box. Therefore your statement that it won't work with "any" cable boxes is nonsensical. It does not need to.

Everyone in the US who has cable is supposed to have access to CableCARD - that's the law as enforced by the FCC. Just because CableCARD devices aren't common yet does not mean that you are being locked out of Series 3 use. Any cable TV company that tells you otherwise is asking for a lawsuit and FCC fines.

Proprietary closed cable TV boxes are going the way of the dinosaurs. People may not know it yet, but it's true. Eventually kids will be asking "what's a cable box?" in the same way that kids now ask "what's an 8-track tape?" or "what's a vinyl record?".


----------



## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

DrStrange said:


> I don't remember...was there the same reaction when the DirecTivos came out? "The DirecTivo doesn't support cable! It doesn't support recording from set top boxes! When they discontinue the series 1 Tivo won't have a model you can use with a cable box, ever ever ever! Tivo has abandoned cable users! Now that they've jumped into bed with satellite I'll be forced to look into ReplayTV!" etc etc.


Actually, now that you mention it, I do have a vague memory of comments just like that. Typical Chicken Little type thinking.

As you note, Series 2 is still going strong and I would not be surprised to see S2 boxes still being made - with some hardware improvements - years from now. It's going to take quite some time for most people to transition over to HDTV and CableCARD, so something like the current S2 boxes are going to still be necessary for the majority of new TiVo users. The S3 is really still a high end, early adopter platform.


----------



## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

dmdeane said:


> TiVo Series 3 *is* the cable box. Therefore your statement that it won't work with "any" cable boxes is nonsensical. It does not need to.


The FCC has only mandated CableCARD support for the largest companies in the top markets, so not everyone can use CableCARD. Some people will still need a cable set top box and a standalone DVR.

But those markets can still use a series 2 just fine, so I'm not sure why some people are acting like they've suddently got no option besides the series 3, and that the series 2 is already dead and won't be replaced.


----------



## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

I would be very surprised to see much development effort put on standard def Tivos. The coming market is in HD, and you'll need a converter box to use your analog TV after 2009, iirc.

You might see some software improvements, but I would much rather have Tivo concentrate on things for the HD boxes rather than waste efforts on a technology that's soon to be obsolete.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

DocNo said:


> Don't like the fact that Tivo is froze out of the DBS market? Write your congressman and the FCC about their monopolistic practices over public airwaves


Um, in what way are satellite providers using public airwaves? They pay to put the satellites in orbit and beam the signals from there to your home. That's not the public airwaves, that's a private network.


----------



## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

DrStrange said:


> The FCC has only mandated CableCARD support for the largest companies in the top markets, so not everyone can use CableCARD. Some people will still need a cable set top box and a standalone DVR.


But the FCC's intent is eventually to have all cable co's convert to CableCARD, yes? Otherwise why have a "standard" that isn't really a standard? Isn't the mandate only for the major cable companies just a limited time exemption for the smaller cable companies to have time to afford the upgrade to CableCARD at a pace they can manage? My strong impression (correct me if I am wrong here) was that CableCARD will eventually be mandatory for all cable TV providers. Big boys first, small players later. Not much point in the FCC mandating a "standard" otherwise.

In the meantime, though, Series 2 works fine for these smaller cable companies, most of whom, I assume, haven't even been able to upgrade to High Definition yet, anyway.


----------



## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

pkscout said:


> Um, in what way are satellite providers using public airwaves? They pay to put the satellites in orbit and beam the signals from there to your home. That's not the public airwaves, that's a private network.


Not true. They use spectrum, reserved for their use only, by the FCC, same as any terrestial TV or radio broadcaster. The only thing different about satellite TV is that it's from a satellite and the signal is encrypted and has to be paid for. Otherwise, it is not different from any other broadcaster, and it's using the public airwaves, ie, they have the "right" to use that spectrum and no one else can use it, but it's a "right" granted to them by the government, to use public spectrum, ie, public airwaves, and for that reason is regulated by the FCC.


----------



## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

Gregor said:


> I would be very surprised to see much development effort put on standard def Tivos. The coming market is in HD, and you'll need a converter box to use your analog TV after 2009, iirc.
> 
> You might see some software improvements, but I would much rather have Tivo concentrate on things for the HD boxes rather than waste efforts on a technology that's soon to be obsolete.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


You forget that TiVo (correctly) understands that the vast majority of new TiVo users are still going to be using analog cable, and will be using analog cable for a few more years at the very least. Most of the people who post here are early adopters and very atypical of the vast majority of TV users TiVo is trying to "capture". The Series 3 is aimed to appease us, not to capture the masses. It will be quite a few more years before HDTV and CableCARD are ubiquitous enough, and the S3 box cheap enough, for it to be a mass market commodity device.

The only hardware improvements I was imagining for the S2 was bigger harddrives, maybe Ethernet, maybe more RAM and a faster processor (maybe) to make the system more responsive and better for TiVo2Go and HME applications (nothing that would require much development effort on TiVo, Inc.'s part). Otherwise, I expect the S2 hardware platform to remain unchanged and to keep it as cheap as possible. But it's not going to "disappear" any time soon. Early adopters keep forgetting just how long and difficult a process it is going to be to get everyone converted over to HDTV and CableCARD. It's going to take a while.

*Edit to add:* as someone else has mentioned in some other threads, the TGC TiVo S2 box being released in Taiwan already has some of the improvements I mentioned, so it's not that hard imagining TiVo adopting the TGC improvements for future S2 boxes in the North American market, since the work has already been done, assuming the improvements don't add too much extra cost and can be justified in terms of improved performance, improved utility, etc.


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

dmdeane said:


> But the FCC's intent is eventually to have all cable co's convert to CableCARD, yes?


Yeah I think that Doc meant the 2003 ruling focused on forcing big 6 compliance first, not cablecard requirements apply only to them and all other cableco's need not comply.

The 1996 telecom law says all cableco's must comply and allow third party direct access to their networks. FCC policy is to not place early adoption burden on small companies for whom the burden is not as negligible as it is for the Big6. Because the small time ma/pa local cablecos are upgrading to digital anyway, they will get it as part of the capability built into the hardware that was designed for Big 6 early adopters. Cheaper for the ma/pa's - less glitches because the big6 plowed the way before them.


----------



## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> TiVo has apparently decided it doesn't make business sense to support people with SD satellite and cable boxes with their Series 3.


Yup, it doesn't. Not just from a cost of business standpoint, but also from a support standpoint. Again, can you see the average person trying to hook up two external tuners (either cable or satellite box) successfully?

I don't blame Tivo for not putting any inputs on the S3 and tempting someone to try - what a nightmare! If you need that functionality, get two S2's. It will probably be cheaper than one S3 anyway!

As others have pointed out, analog will be here for some time (unfortunately) and I'm sure Tivo is painfully aware of this and reading threads like this. I sincerely doubt there will be much difference in features for SD content between the S2 and S3 - otherwise complaints such as yours would be way more valid. So far Tivo has proven themselves more careful and aware of issues like these to allow something like that happen. Guess time will tell if it is a truly legitimate complaint or not.


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

I can't get cable at all here. So this means I have to choose between TiVo and HD?


----------



## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> I can't get cable at all here. So this means I have to choose between TiVo and HD?


Can you not get HD OTA either?


----------



## DrStrange (May 18, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> I can't get cable at all here. So this means I have to choose between TiVo and HD?


If you get OTA HD then you can still use an S3 for HD locals, but if you're somewhere that doesn't have cable you probably don't have any ATSC signals either. But in any case if cable isn't an option at all, your only source for the HD channels you can't get OTA is satellite, and we've already gone over why the S3 can't include HD satellite support, either integrated or through a sat box. So yes, you have to choose what you want to give up, but that's not Tivos fault. Take it up with the satellite companies that won't give you an HD Tivo option.

I can't get OTA HD where I live so I've been having to make that same choice for years. The S3 will mean I won't anymore, and I suspect my situation is a LOT more typical (which means a lot more important for Tivo to address) than yours.


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

There's maybe two channels I could get fuzzily OTA, if I had a good antenna, but they're sure not HD. They're barely even D, let alone H. The only way to get HD where I live is satellite, and I doubt that'll change any time soon.


----------

