# Comcast has a new deal with Tivo?



## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

This is just weird. I got a letter from Comcast saying I've been being billed incorrectly for service for some unspecified time now. As of this month, I'm getting 3 new charges for $9.95 each for "digital additional outlet" and a $5 credit for "customer owned equipment". So my bill is going up $25 per month! 

So I call in for an explanation. And the tech says, "oh, you have Tivos. As of the first of August, Comcast entered into an agreement with Tivo that Comcast will charge $12 per month per Tivo, but we're only charging you $9.95 per month per Tivo." What? How can that mean anything?

I have 3 cable cards and a digital tuning adapter. I guess each cable card is a "digital outlet"?

In the end, I signed up for a new triple play package for a year at close to the price I'm paying now. But this still all feels like some nebulous middle eastern bazaar where nobody knows what anybody else is really paying for the same thing.

I'm going to look very hard at whatever Tivo releases next Spring. I think the solution to this "additional outlet fee" nonsense is a 4- or 6-tuner box that can stream to and "loan" tuners to a "mini" box.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

bmgoodman said:


> This is just weird. I got a letter from Comcast saying I've been being billed incorrectly for service for some unspecified time now. As of this month, I'm getting 3 new charges for $9.95 each for "digital additional outlet" and a $5 credit for "customer owned equipment". So my bill is going up $25 per month!
> 
> So I call in for an explanation. And the tech says, "oh, you have Tivos. As of the first of August, Comcast entered into an agreement with Tivo that Comcast will charge $12 per month per Tivo, but we're only charging you $9.95 per month per Tivo." What? How can that mean anything?
> 
> ...


Almost sounds like they are trying to shift some of the blame for the cost to Tivo but I can't see any way that Tivo would be getting a nickle out of this. I suspect that if you had Comcast DVRs or set top boxes that the charge would be $xx each but you are actually getting a discount for customer owned equipment. Personally, I think it is outrageous that a cable company would charge fees like that for "extra outlets used". Do they also charge you for each CablCard and each Tuning Adapter?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

do you actually have 3 tivo's or just 2?


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## jy3 (May 3, 2008)

I received the same letter today here in Arlington, VA. 

My understanding is that the charges are actually for the cable cards. The first one is free and additional cards will be $9.95.

Not sure what alternatives there are at this point.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

jy3 said:


> I received the same letter today here in Arlington, VA.
> 
> My understanding is that the charges are actually for the cable cards. The first one is free and additional cards will be $9.95.
> 
> Not sure what alternatives there are at this point.


If FiOS was available, I'd switch just to spite them. Cable cards were the cable cabal's "solution" and were designed to be an inexpensive way to ensure that third-party devices received the channels YOU ALREADY PAY FOR. I can't buy cable cards, I must rent them, and now they want $9.95 per month for what is essentially a $50 PCMCIA card? Robbery.

To MichaelK, I have a Tivo S3 (OLED) and a TivoHD, so 2 and 1 cable cards, respectively.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

You should only be charged for 2 cable cards the first one is usually free. The $5 refund is for two devices you own that use cable cards. The refund is $2.50 per device.


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## tomm1079 (May 10, 2005)

this happened to me about a year ago..they are just trying to fix their prices across network


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tomm1079 said:


> this happened to me about a year ago..they are just trying to fix their prices across network


Yeah, it smells like price-fixing, alright.

I swear somewhere there was a secret meeting with government and industry where someone said "So it's agreed then, we'll implement the various forms of digital television in the ways which will most make people miss analog?".


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Another discussion going on the DSLR Comcast Forum.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27584582-Price-Cable-Card-Pricing-

FWIW: CoxAZ charges a $1.80 AdvancedTV Fee (per device, CC or leased DVR/STB) on top of the $2/mo CC fee. They used to call it a Gateway Fee and before that an Outlet Fee.
This fee has dropped over the years from $5 to $3 and now to $1.80


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## jy3 (May 3, 2008)

bmgoodman said:


> If FiOS was available, I'd switch just to spite them. Cable cards were the cable cabal's "solution" and were designed to be an inexpensive way to ensure that third-party devices received the channels YOU ALREADY PAY FOR. I can't buy cable cards, I must rent them, and now they want $9.95 per month for what is essentially a $50 PCMCIA card? Robbery.
> 
> To MichaelK, I have a Tivo S3 (OLED) and a TivoHD, so 2 and 1 cable cards, respectively.


Unfortunatley, Fios is not an option here yet, or I would have jumped ship a long time ago.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Thank God the electric company never caught on to the "additional outlet fee" BS!


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

This is nothing new. I've been with Comcast for 5 years and have had to pay the Additional Outlet fee the entire time. It has been discussed ad nauseum here. The AO fee has nothing to do with cable cards or Tivo. They will charge that fee for each additional cable box as well. Just another money grab.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

It's interesting to see how the different cable companies go about it. I have Suddenlink and they charge $5 for a set top box (non-DVR) and $4 for a CableCard. They talk about offering "free HD channels" but the only free ones are the five local Clear-QAM channels that I can get directly on my TV anyway. All others require a higher level tier of service AND either a set top box or CableCard.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

It is clearly Comcast starting to align their pricing schemes across multiple local networks. It has been like that for years where I am.

Just make sure they do it right and follow the regulations. It's easy for them, and not unheard of, to set up the new billing incorrectly. 

Normally you will see one digital outlet (DO) included with your package, which they may need to bill and credit at the same time. Then each DO will have an additional fee. A two cablecard device may also have an extra cablecard fee, but I don't have one of these so I could be mistaken...


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## retiredqwest (Sep 7, 2010)

To quite myself from dslreports:

Per my Comcast Bill of 5/19/11 and it appears on some other folks bills as well.

CableCARD (first card in device) old rate $0.00 new rate $0.00
CableCARD (second card in same device) old rate $1.50 new rate $1.10
Customer-Owned Video Equipment Credit old rate $2.50 new rate $2.50

Digital Additional Outlet Service (Includes Equipment) 2 @ $8.75 since I have 2 CableCards. There is no CC fee on my statement.

The key above is the word DEVICE, not tuners, streams, nor channels.
And also notice it makes no mention of the word TIVO. And the additional outlet fee INCLUDES Comcast owned equipment. That is why the first card in a device is free. 

So if you have ONE M-CARD in a device there should not be a fee for the card and the outlet fee applies.

BUT, if you have 2 S-CARDS in a device then the CC fee does apply and there should only be 1 outlet fee. 

Of course trying to convince a CSR about this would be fun....

AND this is supposed to be company wide. YMMV on that though.....


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

retiredqwest said:


> The key above is the word DEVICE, not tuners, streams, nor channels.
> And also notice it makes no mention of the word TIVO. And the additional outlet fee INCLUDES Comcast owned equipment. That is why the first card in a device is free.


Why do we still accept paying for each device we connect? Electricity, gas, water, sewer, and telephone are really missing out on these up-charges.

"Well, sir, I see you have just added a fourth toilet in your home. That's going to cost you an extra $10 a month." The whole thing just bugs me. Sorry for the rant.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

bmgoodman said:


> Why do we still accept paying for each device we connect? Electricity, gas, water, sewer, and telephone are really missing out on these up-charges.
> 
> "Well, sir, I see you have just added a fourth toilet in your home. That's going to cost you an extra $10 a month." The whole thing just bugs me. Sorry for the rant.


One town I lived in CT did charge in the tax bill for each toilet in the home, UG.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

bmgoodman said:


> Why do we still accept paying for each device we connect? Electricity, gas, water, sewer, and telephone are really missing out on these up-charges.
> 
> "Well, sir, I see you have just added a fourth toilet in your home. That's going to cost you an extra $10 a month." The whole thing just bugs me. Sorry for the rant.


Because the people who are affected don't seem to really complain just like those with flaky tuning adapters.

It is the same thing with CableCARDs and tuning adapters. It is amazing if you search for CableCARD on twitter how many people are complaining about install problems. I bet you most won't file a comment to the FCC about it. Meanwhile we are rapidly approaching the date when they are supposed to come out with details about a CableCARD replacement and all the FCC has to go on is the comments from a few select people like TiVo, Allvid alliance, and CES against all the cable companies, MPAA, Disney and others.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Wow! And I thought FiOS was high with their charge of $3.99 per cable card.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

retiredqwest said:


> To quite myself from dslreports:
> 
> Per my Comcast Bill of 5/19/11 and it appears on some other folks bills as well.
> 
> ...


My mileage did vary. Tonight I was told that everything I was told last night was wrong. Tonight, they said I have to pay $9.95 per cable card after the first one (which is free/included). Then I get a $2.50 credit for each of the two HD Tivos. So, I'm basically paying $15 more per month. Or at least that is the story TODAY. I'll post again tomorrow with THAT story....

And FWIW, I was also told that I can have up to 2 digital tuning adapters at no charge. (I have one currently.)


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## overFEDEXed (Nov 11, 2002)

CoxInPHX said:


> Another discussion going on the DSLR Comcast Forum.
> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27584582-Price-Cable-Card-Pricing-
> 
> FWIW: CoxAZ charges a $1.80 AdvancedTV Fee (per device, CC or leased DVR/STB) on top of the $2/mo CC fee. They used to call it a Gateway Fee and before that an Outlet Fee.
> This fee has dropped over the years from $5 to $3 and now to $1.80


Cox cable here below Atlanta charges me $2 for every CC plus $5 Advanced Tv fee on the first card, $4 for each additional CC.

I was paying $25 for my four CC's total. Just think, that's in addition to the package fees!!!

I'm selling off all of my Lifetime HD's, one by one. I have an Elite and a $6.95 Premiere that I'm keeping.

Come on Tivo Mini, please. All I want for Christmas is my Tivo Mini......Three of them.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

It keeps getting better. I had asked to have a manager call me back to express my displeasure at being given wrong information yesterday, and in confirming the last information, I was told that that was also not completely correct. 

So, the first cable card is free only if it is not in an HD device. So I could get it free only if they turn off the HD channels for that card. Clear yet? So each cable card is $9.95, less a $2.50 refund for having my own equipment. So my 3 cards are $22.35.

Digital adapters are no longer free. They're $2.50/month. In my case, my first and only digital adapter counts as my "free" device.

These monopolies are a giant PIA. I'd switch to DirecTV, but I'm sure they're just as bad. Plus I'd have to sell my Tivos, and accept losing signal when it rains. I'd go over-the-air only if I could also get a half dozen cable channels, magically. 

Hopefully this is the end of the rant.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

This could be amusing... in an irritating sort of way....

At one point, I had more devices than I have now - some of them required two cablecards. I had 6 cablecards.

Devices died, devices were replaced. I'm now down to 3 cablecards. There was no charge for the extra three cablecards, and comcast (I asked), didn't particularly want them back. My account billing is currently 'correct' based on the number of devices in use (based on comcast's definition of correct). (*)

So, three cablecards sit on a desk here in front of me, technically on my account. I forsee a attempt to bill me for the connections they're not connected to....

Edit: (*) Scratch that... Since the last time I looked at the details page, apparently monkies on crack have been making changes, that all happen to net to a 50cent difference, which is why I didn't notice it...


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

bmgoodman said:


> Why do we still accept paying for each device we connect? Electricity, gas, water, sewer, and telephone are really missing out on these up-charges.
> 
> "Well, sir, I see you have just added a fourth toilet in your home. That's going to cost you an extra $10 a month." The whole thing just bugs me. Sorry for the rant.


Ironically in the early days, Ma Bell owned the telephones and you had to pay for each one you used. Essentially the same as an outlet fee.
Look what happened with that.
The same thing needs to apply to the cable companies, but because TV programming is not considered a necessity it will never happen.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

Yea, I have gone through some similar shenanigans with Comcast for my TiVo HDs as well. Comcast is making it REALLY hard to own a TiVo Premiere these days. More and more so to the point that I have started seriously looking into alternatives including the Ceton and HDHomeRun products that would allow me to use one single M-card to drive a 3-4 tuner system for my whole home. I would then essentially be able to use an Xbox360 as a cable box for each TV. The only thing holding me back right now is that I am waiting for these upcoming TiVo Minis & see how much they are. Depending on their price (monthly or flat), I can then do a full cost comparison & go from there. 

Also, I have three TiVo (2 HDs, & a S2) with lifetime subscriptions thinking I would save in the long run. I didn't get a lifetime for a recent 4th TiVo cause I'm not sure it would be that great of a thing & feel it would just take so long to recoup that lifetime fee that I figured I might as well just pay the $12.95/month for now (till 3/2013) and then see what the market is like then. 

I'm glad I didn't as I see how I might be better off getting a 4-tuner Premiere (possibly w/ lifetime) and then get a Mini (hopefully available by March, 2013). All of it would then run off a single M-card.

For now, Comcast is still gonna basically charge me $7.50/month ($9.95-$2.50 equipment credit) for the additional Premiere M-card and then $12.95/month from TiVo. So, it will be about $21/month to have this 4th TiVo. Comcast would charge me about $18/month for their crappy HD DVR so for a few bucks more, I just assume use a TiVo for now anyway. 

Any way you look at it, Comcast is REALLY taking advantage of cable card customers and trying to make it real hard to use alternative equipment instead of their s&$tty stuff. They are basically trying to squeeze out the competition with all these silly charges and are doing a fairly good job at it. Maybe the FCC will step in, but I highly doubt it. 

Hell, I have also seriously looked into just going to a straight over-the-air antenna with my lifetime Premiere and S3. Then suppliment it with Netflix, Amazon and/or Hulu Plus since all of these are accessible on my Premiere. I'm holding out hope for these TiVO "minis" so time will tell.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

This is scary stuff!

I have 5 Tivos and would be paying through the nose if I had Comcast. Right now I am glad to have my local cableco charging $1.99 per cablecard.

The way around this though, is to have one Tivo with 6 tuners and a few Tivo minis around the house.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

larrs said:


> This is scary stuff!
> 
> I have 5 Tivos and would be paying through the nose if I had Comcast. Right now I am glad to have my local cableco charging $1.99 per cablecard.
> 
> The way around this though, is to have one Tivo with 6 tuners and a few Tivo minis around the house.


While I am ultimately hoping this is the answer and am eagerly awaiting for these Minis to come out as well (so I can then do a full cost comparison to a 3/4 tuner, whole home theater setup with one M-card), part of me wonders how Comcrap might try to weasel out of this as well and somehow be able to then "charge per tuner" even if its one M-card.

Yea, I would think it can't really be detected by Comcast how many tuners your TiVo has & is operating, but nothing surprises me these days with Comcrap. I wouldn't put it past them to have customers somehow "verify" to them what kind of TiVo you have so that it can properly be audited as needed. Sheeeeesh.


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## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> So, the first cable card is free only if it is not in an HD device.


Tell me this is a joke. Isn't HD access just about the only point of a cable card? I don't believe there are any SD-only cable-card-compatible devices.


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm not even understanding all this.

I have one Cable box and two TiVo Premieres with cable cards. I have to pay an extra $10 because I have HD equipment but the cable cards are only a few dollars combined.

It was my understanding when I set up the cable service that the base price gets three 'outlets' which is covered by my cable box and two Premieres. Does this mean I'm going to have to be paying extra for my setup because I have cable cards?

I already pay a painfully high cable bill and if they increase the price for sure I'll have to cancel the service and go back to OTA and it's not like that would be by choice.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Not that it does not exist, but I never heard of getting three digital outlets included with a package. Could you be thinking of the DTA? Those comcast will let you have TWO of, in addition to your existing box, to make up for the lack of analog.

It is a DIGITAL outlet charge, regardless of HD or SD service.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

I have 4 CableCards for 2 Series 3 units and receive a $10 (4 x $2.50) credit each month. I don't get charged for the Cable Cards or for any additional outlets. And I generally always have someone in the ComcastCares department deal with my account anytime a change has to be made.


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

jrtroo said:


> Not that it does not exist, but I never heard of getting three digital outlets included with a package. Could you be thinking of the DTA? Those comcast will let you have TWO of, in addition to your existing box, to make up for the lack of analog.
> 
> It is a DIGITAL outlet charge, regardless of HD or SD service.


When I set the service up the Comcast rep was asking me about how many TVs (outlets?) I have and how they are hooked up. He was going on about having three TVs covered by whatever package I ended up buying. I just got the main cable box and two cable cards and nothing else. I guess the DTA you mention are 'digital television adaptors' or something and I don't have any of those.

He was the third rep I spoke to before getting the service though. They all say something different.

Bottom line: I have no clue about any of this. Do they really charge more for additional digital outlets beyond the one that your main cable box is plugged into? Aren't they ALL digital nowadays?

I might as well be trying to solve Fermat's last theorem as understanding my cable bill. I'm not kidding about having to cancel if it goes up any more, it's more than my utility bill for God's sake.


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

dswallow said:


> I have 4 CableCards for 2 Series 3 units and receive a $10 (4 x $2.50) credit each month. I don't get charged for the Cable Cards or for any additional outlets. And I generally always have someone in the ComcastCares department deal with my account anytime a change has to be made.


This looks familiar to me. I only get one $2.50 credit though and it is listed as something like 'customer equipment'.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Comcast cares can screw it up, been there done that. 

If you use a DTA, I believe that is not considered a digital outlet. Everything else is, though. Cable companies have been wanting to do this for years, and digital seems to allow for it. It is certainly skirting the rules for cablecards, but seems to fall within them due to their approach.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

button1066 said:


> Bottom line: I have no clue about any of this. Do they really charge more for additional digital outlets beyond the one that your main cable box is plugged into? Aren't they ALL digital nowadays?
> 
> I might as well be trying to solve Fermat's last theorem as understanding my cable bill. I'm not kidding about having to cancel if it goes up any more, it's more than my utility bill for God's sake.


Yes, in most areas, Comcast has gone all digital. For a while, they were giving customers up to 2 of the little digital adapters (the small ones, about the size of a deck of cards) to "make up" for going all digital. Now, apparently, they're charging even for those. And now the "included" first outlet can only be digital, but NOT HD? So basically, they've found a way to charge for every cable card, cable box, tuning adapter, dog house, outhouse, hen house. Sorry, I lapsed into my Fugitive quotation.....

Frankly, I'd like some more regulation on these supposedly "regulated monopolies". I should really be able to purchase cable cards, rather than rent. And charging for outlets? I think in the good ol' analog days, that got to be illegal. I'm sure these companies were licking their chops to go all digital and be free of nearly every rule. IIRC, there's something pending that might even allow them to scramble the HD broadcast channels, which they could previously not do.

My only other option is DirecTV, but I like to watch TV on rainy days....


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

bmgoodman said:


> And charging for outlets? I think in the good ol' analog days, that got to be illegal.


Nope, it wasn't illegal. Cable companies have always wanted to charge a per outlet fee, but in the good ol' analog days they had no control over it.
There was a rumor that the cable company had a way to read the ohms of the coax and could tell if you added coax to the system by splitting the incoming line to another room for a second TV.
I didn't believe it and did it anyway.
Yep, in the eyes of the cable company, I was 'stealing' cable.


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## sirfracas (Apr 5, 2006)

bmgoodman said:


> It keeps getting better. I had asked to have a manager call me back to express my displeasure at being given wrong information yesterday, and in confirming the last information, I was told that that was also not completely correct.
> 
> So, the first cable card is free only if it is not in an HD device. So I could get it free only if they turn off the HD channels for that card. Clear yet? So each cable card is $9.95, less a $2.50 refund for having my own equipment. So my 3 cards are $22.35.
> 
> ...


After battling them over a couple of months, I kind of ended up in the same place. I have 3 multi-cards (2x Tivo HD, 1 Elite) and they charge me for 2x Digital Service at $9.95 each and they deduct $2.50 3 times for Customer Owned Equipment. So I end up paying $12.40 for 3 Tivos - which I think is actually reasonable when we consider who we are dealing with.

This was after several phone calls trying to convince them that what they were billing me didn't match their website claims at all.

This is for Gwinnett County Georgia.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

steve614 said:


> Ironically in the early days, Ma Bell owned the telephones and you had to pay for each one you used. Essentially the same as an outlet fee.
> Look what happened with that.
> The same thing needs to apply to the cable companies, but because TV programming is not considered a necessity it will never happen.


It sort of *did* happen to the cable companies.. That's why we had "cable ready tuners".

Since they already get you for the cable card itself (which IMHO is a semi-reasonable fee, though of course I wish you didn't need it), I think the extra outlet fee is not really necessary.

Oh yeah, at least as of my *current* bill (which goes into the beginning of November), I'm not being charged for the DTAs (the "little digital adapters"), though the one that I just opened the other day after all analog went off apparently didn't work.. The remote definitely had power (lights blinked), but the box itself never had an LED light up and didn't seem to actually put out video..


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

dswallow said:


> I have 4 CableCards for 2 Series 3 units and receive a $10 (4 x $2.50) credit each month. I don't get charged for the Cable Cards or for any additional outlets. And I generally always have someone in the ComcastCares department deal with my account anytime a change has to be made.


Your setup and pricing is pretty much identical to mine. I always thought it was odd, that the more cards I get, the cheaper my service becomes. Must be a NJ thing.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

dswallow said:


> I have 4 CableCards for 2 Series 3 units and receive a $10 (4 x $2.50) credit each month. I don't get charged for the Cable Cards or for any additional outlets. And I generally always have someone in the ComcastCares department deal with my account anytime a change has to be made.


I used to have a similar situation. 3 cable cards at $1.50 each and a $5 credit. I didn't complain, but it eventually got "audited" (or whatever they call it) & my bill went up significantly. Oh well. Consider yourself lucky and take it while you can.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

bmgoodman said:


> My only other option is DirecTV, but I like to watch TV on rainy days....


Come on guy. Have you ever had sat tv? I have had Dish Network for the last 2 1/2 years and your rant about rainy days is severely overblown. As a matter of fact Comcast was down more than my sat service because we were living in an area where the cables were old.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

buscuitboy said:


> I used to have a similar situation. 3 cable cards at $1.50 each and a $5 credit. I didn't complain, but it eventually got "audited" (or whatever they call it) & my bill went up significantly. Oh well.


I know that Comcast has many different charges depending on where and what CS agent you may speak to, I was told by the customer retention group that if you pick the triple play package with* Digital Preferred *you will not get changed for any AO or HD reception, you will get one HD cable box with your package and the cable card charge will be $1.50/each per month. About 6 months ago they dropped that CC charge to $1.15/month per card, don't know why and I am not trying to find out why.
I am in the Hartford CT area and using 4 CC


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

lessd said:


> One town I lived in CT did charge in the tax bill for each toilet in the home, UG.


England, Scotland and France all had window taxes at some point during the 18th and 19th centuries. Look for bricked up windows in older houses!


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

moedaman said:


> Come on guy. Have you ever had sat tv? I have had Dish Network for the last 2 1/2 years and your rant about rainy days is severely overblown. As a matter of fact Comcast was down more than my sat service because we were living in an area where the cables were old.


No, never had it. But I have been in sports bars during thunderstorms and watched the reception go to [email protected] And in a decade, I can count the number of days I've not had Comcast reception. YMMV.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bmgoodman said:


> If FiOS was available, I'd switch just to spite them. Cable cards were the cable cabal's "solution" and were designed to be an inexpensive way to ensure that third-party devices received the channels YOU ALREADY PAY FOR. I can't buy cable cards, I must rent them, and now they want $9.95 per month for what is essentially a $50 PCMCIA card? Robbery.
> 
> To MichaelK, I have a Tivo S3 (OLED) and a TivoHD, so 2 and 1 cable cards, respectively.


there's 2 different fees typically associated with your own devices. 1 is the cablecard rental fee (which varies from $0 up to around $2 it seems on comcast). So the PCMCIA card is maybe $2 a month.

The other part of the fee is the "additional outlet fee" which I believe they charge (or bundle) in to ANY addressable digital outlet- either a cablecard device or a digital cable box they rent you.

call and speak to a human and explain that 2 cards are in one tivo. They should only charge you a single additional outlet fee for the 2 cards in that one device. (unless they recently changed that too). (and i think will only issue you a single 'bring your own' credit for that Tivo also)

that hopefully will save you at least one of the $10 fees.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bmgoodman said:


> No, never had it. But I have been in sports bars during thunderstorms and watched the reception go to [email protected] And in a decade, I can count the number of days I've not had Comcast reception. YMMV.


just FYI- I have comcast now and have had it for years (basically moved to comcast when the S3 came out). prior to that for 10+ years I had directv. I think perhaps 3 times a thunderstorm mattered. a properly aimed dish should really never have an issue (I was anal and always put up and aimed my own dishes to get the best signal and keep them from looking like a hood ornament on my house....)


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I'm currently paying no fees with the exception of a HD Technology Fee and getting a $2.50 credit per cableCARD. 

I have one cable box, but today I got Xfinity On Demand on my Premiere so I have no reason to keep the box any more. I'm wondering if I return it, will Comcast take off the HD Tech Fee, start charging me outlet fees or make no change to my bill?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bmgoodman said:


> Why do we still accept paying for each device we connect? Electricity, gas, water, sewer, and telephone are really missing out on these up-charges.
> 
> "Well, sir, I see you have just added a fourth toilet in your home. That's going to cost you an extra $10 a month." The whole thing just bugs me. Sorry for the rant.


It's been many years but my recollection is that cable had the laws/regulations changed when they noticed that satellite had "mirror" fees and that no one seemed to complain. Cable saw another revenue stream and lobbied to be allowed to charge it for the new (at the time) digital cable boxes.

I dont want to defend the borg but really electricity, gas, water, sewer, and (until recently) phone typically charge per unit of use. Dont give cable any ideas or they will start to monitor how many minutes we watch per day and try to charge for that.

one funny thing is back in the day the phone company sure did charge extra for each phone in the house- and if i recall the charge was not trivial for a second extension on the line. When I grew up people had A phone in the kitchen and that was it- it was cost prohibitive to have another for most people. Then the laws/regulations were changed to allow consumers to but their own devices and use as many as they wanted. Somehow cable has conned the lawmakers and/of FCC to go backwards....


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

morac said:


> I'm currently paying no fees with the exception of a HD Technology Fee and getting a $2.50 credit per cableCARD.
> 
> I have one cable box, but today I got Xfinity On Demand on my Premiere so I have no reason to keep the box any more. I'm wondering if I return it, will Comcast take off the HD Tech Fee, start charging me outlet fees or make no change to my bill?


Off the top of my head, i pay a buck a card but get 2.50 back for each card. and No addtional outlet fee's for my 3 tivo's- so i get paid to have tivo's. At one point i did have a cablebox and my package specifically calls out a fee for the box in the desciption but i gave the box back. Half of me wants to be a smart ass and call and ask for the monthly credit equal to the box fee- the other half (that wins) is afraid to touch anything in case they decide to start whacking me with the additonal outlet fees.

they took off the HD fee a couple years ago with one of the annual price increases.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> Off the top of my head, i pay a buck a card but get 2.50 back for each card. and No addtional outlet fee's for my 3 tivo's- so i get paid to have tivo's. At one point i did have a cablebox and my package specifically calls out a fee for the box in the desciption but i gave the box back. Half of me wants to be a smart ass and call and ask for the monthly credit equal to the box fee- the other half (that wins) is afraid to touch anything in case they decide to start whacking me with the additonal outlet fees.
> 
> they took off the HD fee a couple years ago with one of the annual price increases.


I called in for a service issue and while I was on the phone I asked about what, if any, changes would occur if I turned in my HD box. I was told nothing would change since I was told the "HD Tech Fee" is needed to get HD service on any box, not just Comcast owned ones.

So I said there is really no point at all in returning it. He didn't agree with me, but he didn't disagree either. He just said that it will stop working if left unplugged for a long period of time. You'd think Comcast would want it back, rather than have me put it in a closet or something. :down:

On a semi-related note, the service person said I was had their "TiVo Premiere" service which lets me get On Demand on the TiVo Premiere. They said that you have to have a certain level of service to get that, which I do. Interestingly enough, it even lists that I have a "TiVo Premiere" under the Equipment area of the Comcast Troubleshooting Page, which is kind of interesting.


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## cowboyshootist (Oct 15, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> Thank God the electric company never caught on to the "additional outlet fee" BS!


Unfortunately the power company did catch on, a long time ago, you get billed for ALL power used from any outlet. You don't get any discounts after the first outlet and the cost per kilowatt is the same for each outlet.


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## cowboyshootist (Oct 15, 2004)

bmgoodman said:


> Why do we still accept paying for each device we connect? Electricity, gas, water, sewer, and telephone are really missing out on these up-charges.
> 
> "Well, sir, I see you have just added a fourth toilet in your home. That's going to cost you an extra $10 a month." The whole thing just bugs me. Sorry for the rant.


Think about it. You DO pay for each electric device you connect to an outlet. Assuming you actually turn it on and use it. Same with water. Do you think you don't pay for water in the upstairs bathroom just because you have a downstairs bathroom?

With Tivo/Cable people in your home could be watching 2 separate programs in different rooms of the house at the same time. I think the issue is that people are somewhat used to all-you-can-eat programming and they want to extend that to additional devices which doesn't seem completely fair, IMHO.

In a certain sense I wish Comcast would charge me based on what I watch. Depending on what they charge per show it could be cheaper than a fixed rated plan.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's an apples and oranges comparison, but I'll give you one that's more accurate: when you pay for Comcast HSI, do you pay for every device in the house to use it? Do you pay extra for every PC to access Xfinity on the web? Do you pay extra for every Xbox to get Xfinity VOD? Do you pay extra for any device to watch live sports on WatchESPN? No.

Why are TVs different? In the days where streaming TV was not widespread, you could maybe make a case for it, but not now. It's a simple money grab.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

cowboyshootist said:


> Think about it. You DO pay for each electric device you connect to an outlet. Assuming you actually turn it on and use it. Same with water. Do you think you don't pay for water in the upstairs bathroom just because you have a downstairs bathroom?


It is really not possible to compare buying a physical product with buying access to a non-physical product. With water you are buying the water no different than buying gasoline at a gas station, it is being sold by volume. With cable TV you are buying access to video streams (channels) there is no physical product involved. With water if you don't use it the water company doesn't have to produce it. With video streams (channels) the cable company pays the same for them if no one in your household ever watches them or if you have 100 people watching them 24/7.



cowboyshootist said:


> With Tivo/Cable people in your home could be watching 2 separate programs in different rooms of the house at the same time. I think the issue is that people are somewhat used to all-you-can-eat programming and they want to extend that to additional devices which doesn't seem completely fair, IMHO.


Fairness has nothing to do with it. If you pay for HBO it costs the cable company the same to provide you with HBO if you never watch it or if you are watching it on 10 TVs at the same time. The same is true for every other channel. In any event "fairness" has nothing to do with pricing any product or service. For the most part cable companies are publicly own companies and their goal is to maximize profits for the stock holders charging any additional fee they can dream up is one way they do it, plan and simple.



cowboyshootist said:


> In a certain sense I wish Comcast would charge me based on what I watch. Depending on what they charge per show it could be cheaper than a fixed rated plan.


Not likely - "A la Carte" pricing currently cost allot - just check the price to rent individual shows or moves from Amazon, Vudu, itunes, or Google. All you can view plans are much cheaper regardless if you are talking about traditional cable/satellite or streaming services like, Netflix, Hulu+, or Amazon Prime.


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## cowboyshootist (Oct 15, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's an apples and oranges comparison, but I'll give you one that's more accurate: when you pay for Comcast HSI, do you pay for every device in the house to use it? Do you pay extra for every PC to access Xfinity on the web? Do you pay extra for every Xbox to get Xfinity VOD? Do you pay extra for any device to watch live sports on WatchESPN? No.
> 
> Why are TVs different? In the days where streaming TV was not widespread, you could maybe make a case for it, but not now. It's a simple money grab.


Well, HSI is not a fair comparison for the simple fact that Comcast isn't providing "content" via HSI other than what you can get via their website or their Xfinity app. With television there are royalties and fees that have to be paid in order to broadcast that content. Also with HSI you do not have unlimited bandwidth and unlimited usage for a single price. If you have multiple devices and/or people using HSI then you will most likely want to get more bandwidth into the house so you are, in an indirect way, paying for multiple people or devices to use the service. Likewise I believe that Comcast does implement a download limit which could be argued is a usage fee.

As in the movie theater example just because one guy paid the fee to watch the movie doesn't mean everyone else can go for free even though it doesn't cost the theater any more to show the movie to one person or 100 people.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

cowboyshootist said:


> Well, HSI is not a fair comparison for the simple fact that Comcast isn't providing "content" via HSI other than what you can get via their website or their Xfinity app. With television there are royalties and fees that have to be paid in order to broadcast that content. Also with HSI you do not have unlimited bandwidth and unlimited usage for a single price. If you have multiple devices and/or people using HSI then you will most likely want to get more bandwidth into the house so you are, in an indirect way, paying for multiple people or devices to use the service. Likewise I believe that Comcast does implement a download limit which could be argued is a usage fee.
> 
> As in the movie theater example just because one guy paid the fee to watch the movie doesn't mean everyone else can go for free even though it doesn't cost the theater any more to show the movie to one person or 100 people.


The movie theater example doesn't really work, because the movie theater uses the movie as a loss leader to get people into their popcorn store.

It's the people from whom the theater gets the movie and the permission to show it that insist on getting full price from every viewer.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

cowboyshootist said:


> Well, HSI is not a fair comparison for the simple fact that Comcast isn't providing "content" via HSI other than what you can get via their website or their Xfinity app. With television there are royalties and fees that have to be paid in order to broadcast that content.


And those fees are paid by the cableCo to the provider *per subscriber*, not per TV set in the house. Same for HSI - the cableCo incurs a cost per drop for bandwidth etc., not for every device in the house that uses it.

This is the point that you are missing - the outlet fees are just a money grab once you get that.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> And those fees are paid by the cableCo to the provider *per subscriber*, not per TV set in the house. Same for HSI - the cableCo incurs a cost per drop for bandwidth etc., not for every device in the house that uses it.
> 
> This is the point that you are missing - the outlet fees are just a money grab once you get that.


In the UK you must pay a tax on each TV in the home, they drive around looking for untaxed TVs Each TV must xmit some signal that a van outside your home can pick up, talk about a money grab. Digital TV gave the cable co.s the ability to do this (charge per outlet), so some of them are. Competition is the only answer. On ATT Uverse you get 4 outlets, period, so no extra charges and no outlets beyond 4.


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

lessd said:


> On ATT Uverse you get 4 outlets, period, so no extra charges and no outlets beyond 4.


That is not how UVerse works in my area (Atlanta). Each additional outlet/box over 1 is an additional $7/month. 4 TVs could cost you an additional $21/month.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

buscuitboy said:


> That is not how UVerse works in my area (Atlanta). Each additional outlet/box over 1 is an additional $7/month. 4 TVs could cost you an additional $21/month.


*WOW* in the Hartford area the friends that have it (very few) get a package with phone/internet/cable/4 ch DVR and a way to connect to four TVs, don't know the price but the system is just comming into this area so they may have a special price to hook you in.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> And those fees are paid by the cableCo to the provider *per subscriber*, not per TV set in the house. Same for HSI - the cableCo incurs a cost per drop for bandwidth etc., not for every device in the house that uses it.
> 
> This is the point that you are missing - the outlet fees are just a money grab once you get that.


that's the general thinking- but do we KNOW that? If I was HBO i would demand a cut of the additional outlet fee (even if it's just a few pennies). And I'd think cable would be hard pressed to come up with an argument explaining how cable should get a cut per TV but HBO shouldn't. Curious if anyone really knows one way or another.

Anyway- the big picture is there's nothing about fairness or who own's what or comparing fruit- it's all about what the market will bear. And DBS proved to cable that people wont walk over 'mirroring fees' so cable got permission from the feds for digital additional outlet fees. That's pretty much the bottom line.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

morac said:


> I called in for a service issue and while I was on the phone I asked about what, if any, changes would occur if I turned in my HD box. I was told nothing would change since I was told the "HD Tech Fee" is needed to get HD service on any box, not just Comcast owned ones.
> 
> So I said there is really no point at all in returning it. He didn't agree with me, but he didn't disagree either. He just said that it will stop working if left unplugged for a long period of time. You'd think Comcast would want it back, rather than have me put it in a closet or something. :down:
> 
> On a semi-related note, the service person said I was had their "TiVo Premiere" service which lets me get On Demand on the TiVo Premiere. They said that you have to have a certain level of service to get that, which I do. Interestingly enough, it even lists that I have a "TiVo Premiere" under the Equipment area of the Comcast Troubleshooting Page, which is kind of interesting.


funny that mine doesn't show any of my equipment - i own 2 premiers and a S3 and own my own phone/modem/thingie.

Anyway- the good news is they turned on VOD for me too (even though no email or on screen messages).

The bad news is they must have went through the tivo accounts to enable vod and noticed my deal and 'corrected' it. I still pay nothing for cablecards, and zero additional outlet fees, but for some reason just got my bill and now they only are giving me 2 of the bring your own equipment fees now instead of 4 that i used to get. Still- since i'm not getting dinged any additional outlet fees or HD fee's i guess it's best not to call and complain that they really should be giving me 3 of the $2.50 credits.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> funny that mine doesn't show any of my equipment - i own 2 premiers and a S3 and own my own phone/modem/thingie.
> 
> Anyway- the good news is they turned on VOD for me too (even though no email or on screen messages).
> 
> The bad news is they must have went through the tivo accounts to enable vod and noticed my deal and 'corrected' it. I still pay nothing for cablecards, and zero additional outlet fees, but for some reason just got my bill and now they only are giving me 2 of the bring your own equipment fees now instead of 4 that i used to get. Still- since i'm not getting dinged any additional outlet fees or HD fee's i guess it's best not to call and complain that they really should be giving me 3 of the $2.50 credits.


Your deal is better than mine, I don't pay any outlet fees and do pay $1.15/month for each of my 4 cable cards, Comcast also told me that the HD box that came with my triple play package is free and returning it would save me nothing. I get no credit for my own equipment and have 4 CC TiVos.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

And people wonder why we get mad at Comcast about outlet fees for cards. 4 cards at $1.15 each? What a deal. And as we see here others have said they don't get charged anything for cards, and sometimes get credits for each one (which means the more cards you get, the cheaper your bill).

This is what the FCC dropped the ball on - the complete lack of consistency with their billing practices, which goes against the regs they put in last year that say card charges must be uniformly applied.


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