# How TiVo can save the TiVo Premiere from disaster



## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

1. Immediately create a means for S3 users to migrate their season pass and preference data for restore onto the S4.

2. Provide an early adopter credit for current users (beyond the marginal hardware discount) and enlist their assistance in improving the product.

3. Provide an actual UPDATED blog that details work being done on the product for completion of the numerous items, from dual core cpu support to completion of the rest of the interface in 1080P.

4. Be responsive

5. Be agile

6. Don't take your dominant market position too seriously, it could vanish in a moment.

7. Make promises and then KEEP those promises.

8. Fire the CEO and the board of directors.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

jmpage2 said:


> Be agile.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> 1. Immediately create a means for S3 users to migrate their season pass and preference data for restore onto the S4.
> 
> 2. Provide an early adopter credit for current users (beyond the marginal hardware discount) and enlist their assistance in improving the product.
> 
> ...


Or be upfront about it, and hold back the HDUI until it's done. Relaunch the marketing campaign on the 4th of July or whenever.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Ignore nutters.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Kablemodem said:


> Ignore nutters.


Yes, all of us who are flabbergasted by the premiere launch and terrible reviews are "nutters".


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

Tivo must:

1. Strike silently like the eagle, but fiercely like the hawk

2. Know itself

3. Convene a series of coffee shops and town hall forums.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

Kablemodem said:


> Ignore nutters.


+1!!!


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> 8. Fire the CEO and the board of directors.


I have been on that bandwagon for a long time, I agree!


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't mind re-adding my season passes, my issue is things that aren't currently airing so i'll have to remember to add them once they're in the guide


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> 2. Provide an early adopter credit for current users (beyond the marginal hardware discount) and enlist their assistance in improving the product.


 TiVo does not want upgrades - it wants new subscribers. Go sign up for the beta program and share this wealth of knowledge


> 3. Provide an actual UPDATED blog that details work being done on the product for completion of the numerous items, from dual core cpu support to completion of the rest of the interface in 1080P.


 umm - be sure and detail their strategic roadmap with dates on the internet. Best strategic move ever for a company



Kablemodem said:


> Ignore nutters.


:up:


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> TiVo does not want upgrades - it wants new subscribers. Go sign up for the beta program and share this wealth of knowledge
> umm - be sure and detail their strategic roadmap with dates on the internet. Best strategic move ever for a company
> 
> :up:


Plenty of companies have provided roadmaps and targets on their product development, this is especially common for software-only products.

Did I say that they should leak their whole roadmap? 

The reality is that they are releasing the product incomplete and need to own up to that and tell us what the plans are for this calendar year to get it done.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Plenty of companies have provided roadmaps and targets on their product development, this is especially common for software-only products.


right - those are called earnings reports typically done with 2 lawyers and many statements about "forward looking" - things might change etc..

Heck Digeo could have put up an detail of dates and times for Moxi and all that would be null and void when Arris bought them.

Now internally set dates and hold feet to the fire - sure.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

Team17 (creators of Worms) are constantly updating their customers on progress and patches, etc. There's one example.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

b_scott said:


> I don't mind re-adding my season passes, my issue is things that aren't currently airing so i'll have to remember to add them once they're in the guide


This happened to me with Lost. I set up an ARWL with

Title Keyword: Lost
Actor: Lilly Evangeline

This assured that new episodes of Lost were recorded (when they eventually aired), and syndicated repeats were ignored. But yes, I'd be in favor of an application that transferred SPs, ARWLs, and 28 day recording history :up:


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> 1. Immediately create a means for S3 users to migrate their season pass and preference data for restore onto the S4.
> 
> 2. Provide an early adopter credit for current users (beyond the marginal hardware discount) and enlist their assistance in improving the product.
> 
> ...


Now all we need is a magic wand.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> Now all we need is a magic wand.


Or some Fairy Dust (tm).


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

You can transfer your shows to any networked computer or other TiVos in your home. As for season passes, in replacing an existing box, is it possible to get them back using the same method as you would when you replace your HDD? Will replacing your TSN on line allow your SPs to be repopulated?


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> 1. Immediately create a means for S3 users to migrate their season pass and preference data for restore onto the S4.


TiVo has needed to do this since the Series 2 was released. They're too friggin' lazy and/or cheap to implement it. Do they really expect us to think that TiVo Desktop couldn't export the data from one system and import it on another? Or that it couldn't stored on their servers? Really?

When I bought my Series 3 I tried to tell myself that I would never buy another box from TiVo until they implemented this. It took me many hours spread over many months to get all of the data back and it's still not there. And never will be.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

ewilts said:


> TiVo has needed to do this since the Series 2 was released. They're too friggin' lazy and/or cheap to implement it. Do they really expect us to think that TiVo Desktop couldn't export the data from one system and import it on another? Or that it couldn't stored on their servers? Really?
> 
> When I bought my Series 3 I tried to tell myself that I would never buy another box from TiVo until they implemented this. It took me many hours spread over many months to get all of the data back and it's still not there. And never will be.


There is a method to do it when you replace the HDD. It is seamless if you have a Guru guide and/ or kidzone activated (Can't remember which, someone else can mention it), but I would hope there is a chance this might work if you change your TSN online if you have these features activated? Anyone have an idea on this?

It would be nice if any DVR could offer this.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

care to explain how kid zone or guru guide saves all your season passes online?


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## patatrox (Nov 30, 2006)

b_scott said:


> I don't mind re-adding my season passes, my issue is things that aren't currently airing so i'll have to remember to add them once they're in the guide


I saved lots of time when I installed my new DVR by leaving my TiVo HD connected, looking at the list of season passes on my TV, and adding them to the new DVR through the TiVo.com website. It was maybe 10 minutes of my time, for what I hope is the next few years.

I think once people start to get their hands on the new boxes, they'll begin to realize how great they are.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

daveak said:


> There is a method to do it when you replace the HDD.


I don't want to replace the HDD - I want to give TiVo a fistful of cash for new hardware and a subscription, go home, plug it in and be up and running the same day without spending hours and hours configuring it.

A company should never make it hard for a prospective customer to do business with. Making it hard for existing customers is even more asinine.
If they don't want our money they should cut the final paychecks to their employees, hand the patents over to Dish, and go home.


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## ewilts (Feb 26, 2002)

patatrox said:


> I saved lots of time when I installed my new DVR by leaving my TiVo HD connected, looking at the list of season passes on my TV, and adding them to the new DVR through the TiVo.com website. It was maybe 10 minutes of my time, for what I hope is the next few years.


You can't add an SP for a program not in the guide. All of the SPs I currently have for programming that starts in the summer will have to wait to be added.

You can't add an actor or producer wishlist for an actor or producer not in the guide. If you have 50-100 actor or producer-based wishlists, you'll probably never get them all back in. Alternatively, you can check every week to see if the person has appeared in the guide. This defeats the purpose doesn't it?


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## reneg (Jun 19, 2002)

b_scott said:


> care to explain how kid zone or guru guide saves all your season passes online?


search on "season passes retained"


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## patatrox (Nov 30, 2006)

ewilts said:


> You can't add an actor or producer wishlist for an actor or producer not in the guide. If you have 50-100 actor or producer-based wishlists, you'll probably never get them all back in. Alternatively, you can check every week to see if the person has appeared in the guide. This defeats the purpose doesn't it?


Agreed, it can be a pain for shows/actors/producers not currently in the guide. Just wanted to remind people they can do it on the web faster than the probably can on the DVR (for shows currently airing or in the guide).


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

reneg said:


> search on "season passes retained"


before I do, are we talking upgrading a hard drive or transferring to a new Tivo box? If it's not for a new box, it doesn't help me.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

> Both Guru Guides and the new KidZone Guides feature in KidZone require that you modify your account settings to allow the service to have access to what is scheduled on your DVR (that's how we can resolve conflicts, place priority, etc automatically with the new Guides).
> 
> If you replace the hard drive on your box...well, the service sees that things are out of sync and automagically fixes that. All of the missing Season Passes, Wishlists, and Guru/KidZone Guides are automatically repopulated.
> 
> ...


From TiVoPony.

Now I see that is is tied to the TSN number. If you RMA a box and it has no benifit, then I would suspect replacing it with a new box will have no benefit either.

So close though, if they could tie the information to the name you give your TiVo box on your account, then a new box -given the same name - would have the same settings. I would suspect some possible confusion with a new box that had different settings...?

Still, I know of no DVR maker that even comes close to this unadvertised feature.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

thanks. sadly, no help to me.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

I predict that the worst of the lag will be resolved on the version that downloads when Premieres are shipped. It will be just fine and some of these reviewers will look like fools for harping about something they were told was an issue due to the pre-release nature of their version.


At least I hope.


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## tlw_2 (Apr 12, 2008)

I'm not sure who is right? Is the review I read today on engadget based on a pre-release version or is it the half baked version I would receive on my order?I'm straddling the fence on cancel/keeping my order? I have already listed my extra Series 3 on eBay and it looks like my reserve will be met. But I don't like the way TiVo would announce a "special event" and showcase the new GUI when it is so lethargic. In fact, that is all we know. Everything else is just speculation. Even with my upgrade discount, $400 for the XL is a gamble. I'm sure the new interface will be cleaned up... but when? Yes it will run the classic GUI much faster, but I'm able to live with my Series 3 performance and it's paid for. Sounds like the new remote is of lesser quality. And why not have a clock? Again..... I could go either way!


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

The speed issue likely because it's not release ready. The demo videos that were posted with the reviews were slower than TiVo Search on the S3 and slower than the demo video with TiVoPony on betanews. 

The fact that large portions of the interface haven't been redone in HD yet is just something TiVo has decided to accept in order to get it released. TiVo explained that from the earliest demos. Anyone who considers that a big deal should pass.


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## global_dev (Mar 15, 2010)

tlw_2 said:


> Yes it will run the classic GUI much faster, but I'm able to live with my Series 3 performance


Is this really true? my understanding is that the classic interface is currently compiled for single core processing and likely code wouldn't be revised to take advantage of dual core capabilities. So if one 400mhz core is unused for classic UI, isn't that pretty much the same as the s3 UI experience? I understand background processes will potentially be better due to ram and CPU upgrades, but classic UI?

I am brand new to TIVO and currently have 2 s3s, one with lifetime and the other still unactivated. I don't even have cablecards yet. I am contemplating going with replacing 1 or both with Premiere XLs just because of M-cablecards (2 for s3 vs 1 for s4) , since FIOS charges $5/mos for each and @ $120 a year for just renting 2 extra cable cards is enticing enough to make the switch using the current upgrade sale as well as a potentially more capable and unified GUI machine.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

well the easiest way to 'save' the premier is to update the software QUICKLY. If they can fix it in the next few weeks (the sooner the better obviously) and maybe get some new updated reviews from places (and it shows a full HD interface with much less lag (using both cores, etc) I think they will stand a chance and the negative review impact will be limited.

If they drag their heals and update it slowly over the next 6 months it will take any remaining wind out of their sales.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

nrc said:


> I predict that the worst of the lag will be resolved on the version that downloads when Premieres are shipped. It will be just fine and some of these reviewers will look like fools for harping about something they were told was an issue due to the pre-release nature of their version.
> 
> At least I hope.


Chances are if a 'final' release was that close to being out we would have gotten word from TiVo about it, to blunt the edge of these reviews that are surely costing them a LOT of sales.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

global_dev said:


> Is this really true? my understanding is that the classic interface is currently compiled for single core processing and likely code wouldn't be revised to take advantage of dual core capabilities. So if one 400mhz core is unused for classic UI, isn't that pretty much the same as the s3 UI experience?


The S3 has a single 300MHz core with a slower memory and graphics subsystem.

I have a Premiere and the classic GUI is "snappier" than existing boxes, but only by a modest amount. TiVo's focus is on the new UI so they did not do any work on the old UI, beyond the useful tweaks noted in my review. You might have a 20 second delay on the Premiere instead of a 30 second delay on the S3 when reorganizing season passes. Those delays will remain until TiVo reworks that part of the software for HD.


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

Let's face it, there is something wrong with this company.

I am leaning to purchase a Moxi, since it has features the Tivo does not. Especially the Moxi Mate. So far the premiere is nothing more than a TivoHD with a faster processor, slower and probably buggy UI, and a slightly larger HD.
As I see it I would be dumb to buy a premiere over a Moxi (just MHO). 

How come Tivo does not release to the public the plans for the Premiere in the future? What software functionality is coming? Are there plans for a remote access box (ala Moxi Mate)? 

Since I have heard nothing I fear Tivo has no plans except to do a money grab with the Premiere release. Based on my past experiences I have no faith that the UI will ever be "fixed", or expanded. 

Tivo needs to get their act together if they expect to get my money again. It's a new world for them today. They are no longer the bleeding edge DVR, they are no longer the only DVR game in town (besides Moxi, I'm sure cable co DVR are cutting into their business significantly). It's time for them to change their attitude to their loyal customer base, because right now their new product doesn't compete with the Moxi.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I think you are right.



nrc said:


> I predict that the worst of the lag will be resolved on the version that downloads when Premieres are shipped. It will be just fine and some of these reviewers will look like fools for harping about something they were told was an issue due to the pre-release nature of their version.
> 
> At least I hope.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

ciucca said:


> Let's face it, there is something wrong with this company.
> 
> I am leaning to purchase a Moxi, since it has features the Tivo does not. Especially the Moxi Mate. So far the premiere is nothing more than a TivoHD with a faster processor, *slower and probably buggy UI*, and a slightly larger HD.
> As I see it I would be dumb to buy a premiere over a Moxi (just MHO).
> ...


bolded part is pure speculation.

Sorry, but there really isn't a huge disparity in functionality/price between the two - at least not in the way you seem to think. Moxi boxes are about the same price as a Premiere XL with Lifetime. Tivo can also do OTA, and have a Wireless solution available. You can't hook up Mates to cable, so you're reliant on your one box to serve up all recordings, and there are only 3 tuners total no matter how many Mates you have. There are benefits to both, but Moxi isn't leading the pack as you seem to think.

I don't know a single person other than me that has even heard of Moxi, but everyone knows Tivo.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

b_scott said:


> bolded part is pure speculation.
> 
> Sorry, but there really isn't a huge disparity in functionality/price between the two - at least not in the way you seem to think. Moxi boxes are about the same price as a Premiere XL with Lifetime. Tivo can also do OTA, and have a Wireless solution available. You can't hook up Mates to cable, so you're reliant on your one box to serve up all recordings, and there are only 3 tuners total no matter how many Mates you have. There are benefits to both, but Moxi isn't leading the pack as you seem to think.
> 
> I don't know a single person other than me that has even heard of Moxi, but everyone knows Tivo.


I think your prices are off. A 3-tuner Moxi with lifetime service is $599. A TiVo Premiere XL is $399 without service. TiVo Premiere with lifetime is $899. That's a $300 difference and the TiVo box has one fewer tuner.

Additionally if you want viewing in another room you don't have to buy an entire extra TiVo with service, you just buy the Moxi Mate and stream either live TV or your recordings over a LAN. This is far cheaper than buying another TiVo with lifetime service.

Even if Moxi doesn't have all the functionality I would like, it is clear that they "get it" and that TiVo does not "get it" when it comes to what consumers expect from this technology.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

jmpage2 said:


> I think your prices are off. A 3-tuner Moxi with lifetime service is $599. A TiVo Premiere XL is $399 without service. TiVo Premiere with lifetime is $899. That's a $300 difference and the TiVo box has one fewer tuner.
> 
> Additionally if you want viewing in another room you don't have to buy an entire extra TiVo with service, you just buy the Moxi Mate and stream either live TV or your recordings over a LAN. This is far cheaper than buying another TiVo with lifetime service.
> 
> Even if Moxi doesn't have all the functionality I would like, it is clear that they "get it" and that TiVo does not "get it" when it comes to what consumers expect from this technology.


Sorry, i mistakenly put "XL". Just the regular premiere, it's about the same with lifetime. Actually it's $100 more, so you've got me there. But it does OTA, which Moxi does not do - and that's important for a lot of people.

Moxi Mates are $300 for something that can't record anything and can only show live TV if you have a good connection (wired) and your Moxi box isn't recording 3 things. If you have two Mates, you're still fighting for two open tuners. One per box. And you have to hope your network can handle it. You can buy a cheap box that plays media for way, way less than that.

Moxi has stuff over Tivo, and Tivo has the same. I don't see a clear cut winner.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

b_scott said:


> Sorry, i mistakenly put "XL". Just the regular premiere, it's about the same with lifetime. Actually it's $100 more, so you've got me there. But it does OTA, which Moxi does not do - and that's important for a lot of people.
> 
> Moxi Mates are $300 for something that can't record anything and can only show live TV if you have a good connection (wired) and your Moxi box isn't recording 3 things. If you have two Mates, you're still fighting for two open tuners. One per box. And you have to hope your network can handle it. You can buy a cheap box that plays media for way, way less than that.
> 
> Moxi has stuff over Tivo, and Tivo has the same. I don't see a clear cut winner.


I don't see a clear winner either but remember that the Moxi is basically a two year old box... we don't know what their next move is. We already know what TiVo will be doing for the next year.... trying to complete the TiVo Premier interface.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

ewilts said:


> You can't add an SP for a program not in the guide. All of the SPs I currently have for programming that starts in the summer will have to wait to be added.
> 
> You can't add an actor or producer wishlist for an actor or producer not in the guide.


You're right about the SP issue, but AFAIK you don't have to pick an actor or producer off the list when setting up a wishlist. You could just type out their whole name and the wishlist would still work. (Assuming no typos)

Yeah, that still annoying and tedious. But not actually impossible.


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## hmstroman (Jan 3, 2005)

Not yet, but they are trending that way.


Both companies were pioneers / leaders in their field.
Both have been / are being overtaken by better funded or nimbler competitors
Palm's Hail Mary was the Pre - Released with a half finished OS on mediocre hardware. Their tag line could have been "Inventing the PDA/smartphone was just a warmup"
Tivo's Hail Mary - the Premiere - Released with an unfinished UI, an underutilized CPU, no wifi, and vague promises of great things to come... someday

Don't get me wrong. I'm rooting for Tivo. (Palm too). As an early adopter of both - and I still use both - I want them to succeed. It looks like it is too late for Palm. Tivo still has a shot.... but they need to fix the problems in the Premiere, and give it real, must-have, features / apps very soon, or they will fade away. In this industry if you don't innovate you're dead. And I don't see much innovation in the Premiere.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

I'm about ready to lose faith in Tivo. I'm been a heavy Tivo supporter for years.

But this Premiere is really nothing. There's no new functionality, just a partly new UI. And even that isn't complete, as about one level deep and it's still the old UI - Photos/Music, Season pass management, To Do list, etc.

I keep looking for the "one big thing" that the Premiere has added over the Tivo HD/S3. An extra tuner? Nope. Streaming from Tivo to Tivo? Nope. Streaming to in-house devices over WiFi? Nope. How about faster MRV? Nope, still only utilizing one core of the CPU, and a 100mb ethernet port.

So 3 years in development, and they have a very thin new skin over about 50&#37; of the UI. I guess Tom Rogers is skimming about $47 million of their R&D funds, as it doesn't seem to be going to anything else.


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

your palm tivo comparison is good, but in the DVR world there is no iPhone or Blackberry... I never heard of Moxi until I came to this forum, and cable boxes or satellite boxes certainly wouldn't fall in that category.. in a world sans iPhones or Blackberry's, the Palm Pre would have been a juggernaught


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## hmstroman (Jan 3, 2005)

Mike-Mike said:


> your palm tivo comparison is good, but in the DVR world there is no iPhone or Blackberry... I never heard of Moxi until I came to this forum, and cable boxes or satellite boxes certainly wouldn't fall in that category.. in a world sans iPhones or Blackberry's, the Palm Pre would have been a juggernaught


I agree, it's not an exact comparison. But at one time Palm owned the smartphone market. There was no iPhone, and Blackberry was a glorified pager. Palm sat around, milking their cash cow, and let new competitors surpass them. Sound familiar? Right now, the Moxi does not have the name recognition of Tivo, but that will change. And the cable company & satellite boxes do count as competition. They may not be faster or better, but they are serious competition if only because they are heavily pushed by the cable/sat companies as the easy or default choice. A coworker has Comcast's DVR. He even thinks it's a Tivo. (No, it is not the near mythical Comcast Tivo box).


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Mike-Mike said:


> your palm tivo comparison is good, but in the DVR world there is no iPhone or Blackberry... I never heard of Moxi until I came to this forum, and cable boxes or satellite boxes certainly wouldn't fall in that category.. in a world sans iPhones or Blackberry's, the Palm Pre would have been a juggernaught


Perhaps... Or people would have just said "eh, the free text-messaging phone is good enough".

Much like many of us said "eh, the Windows Mobile phone is good enough".

Until people know better, they use crap. And the cableco DVRs are "good enough" to keep people from using a DVR that hasn't really changed in over 10 years, except for that sleek-new-partial-UI-with-lots-of-new-real-estate-crammed-full-of-advertising-so-that-the-actual-real-estate-is-the-same-as-before.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Just wanna say, Wow, a frank discussion on this board. Amazing how many fanboys have reverted back to just consumers with opinions. That in itself, may be the best thing the Premiere accomplished. 

Personally, I'm still stickin w/Tivo on this one. I just hope they pull back from all the internet based slowness (do ya really need to download a showcase bar every page?) and sillyness (yes, I'm searching for Lord of the Rings youtube video, how'd ya guess?) and just get back to a great DVR with only a side helping of internet (Youtube, Amazon on demand, Netflix, etc). My advice, keep the 2 apart for speed reasons please and concentrate on being a good DVR first and foremost. Stop coding Internet hooks and instead update all menus to HD right away.

The way I see it. Tivo can either be a great DVR again or a piss poor Google/Apple TV clone. Sadly, I think Tivo honestly thinks they can out do Google/Apple/Microsoft online. Tivo, change course now and you may still be my tiny DVR sitting next to my Google TV.


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## ItsRounder (Feb 28, 2010)

jmpage2 said:


> Chances are if a 'final' release was that close to being out we would have gotten word from TiVo about it, to blunt the edge of these reviews that are surely costing them a LOT of sales.


I'm also very surprised that these reviews didn't have some kind of company response saying "these speed issues will be resolved soon and are not an indication of the final product" or something along those lines. Why even give out review units if the product is going to give such a bad impression? Who is in charge of their PR/Marketing anyway? Interns? Where's the damage control?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Kablemodem said:


> Ignore nutters.


:up::up::up:


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

ItsRounder said:


> I'm also very surprised that these reviews didn't have some kind of company response saying "these speed issues will be resolved soon and are not an indication of the final product" or something along those lines. Why even give out review units if the product is going to give such a bad impression? Who is in charge of their PR/Marketing anyway? Interns? Where's the damage control?


The obvious answer is: becuase the speed issues won't be resolved. We'll know in about 36 hours, but I'm willing to bet a diet coke that the speed issues will be just as bad as engadget reported.

Further, I'll bet another diet coke that they will not improve for 6+ months, if ever. Not until the Series 5, which will update the menus for Season Passes, and completely change DVR viewing forever.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> I'm about ready to lose faith in Tivo. I'm been a heavy Tivo supporter for years.
> 
> But this Premiere is really nothing. There's no new functionality, just a partly new UI. And even that isn't complete, as about one level deep and it's still the old UI - Photos/Music, Season pass management, To Do list, etc.
> 
> ...


You should checkout bkdtv's pdf: http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/prem_review_01.pdf


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

AbMagFab said:


> The obvious answer is: becuase the speed issues won't be resolved. We'll know in about 36 hours, but I'm willing to bet a diet coke that the speed issues will be just as bad as engadget reported.
> 
> Further, I'll bet another diet coke that they will not improve for 6+ months, if ever. Not until the Series 5, which will update the menus for Season Passes, and completely change DVR viewing forever.


LOL. You're gloom and doom. Obviously they'll speed up. They have faster processors and TWO of them, they just haven't turned on the second one yet. They didn't put two in it for their health.

Things you're saying about the Series 5 are things people said about the Series 4. If you don't think S4 will change why would you think S5 will?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

b_scott said:


> LOL. You're gloom and doom. Obviously they'll speed up. They have faster processors and TWO of them, they just haven't turned on the second one yet. They didn't put two in it for their health.
> 
> Things you're saying about the Series 5 are things people said about the Series 4. If you don't think S4 will change why would you think S5 will?


Not quite right - it has one processor, it's just dual-core. And the reason they didn't "enable" it yet is because they didn't code for it. This is fairly complicated, and isn't something they can just turn on. They likely need to completely rearchitect their application to handle things in parallel, when for now they've been able to assume everything was single-threaded.

Since they didn't do this rearchitecture at launch, it's highly unlikely it will happen any time soon. And frankly, given the itsy bitsy amount they've done since the Tivo HD launch 3 years ago, there's not a chance they'll turn on use of the second core within the next couple of years.

Seriously.

And the S4 didn't change - it just added a thin skin to a handful of screens. So I don't expect the S5 to change either, that was sort of my point.

*I'm beginning to think Tivo Shannon left because she lost faith in Tivo as well.*


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> Not quite right - it has one processor, it's just dual-core. And the reason they didn't "enable" it yet is because they didn't code for it. This is fairly complicated, and isn't something they can just turn on. They likely need to completely rearchitect their application to handle things in parallel, when for now they've been able to assume everything was single-threaded.
> 
> Since they didn't do this rearchitecture at launch, it's highly unlikely it will happen any time soon. And frankly, given the itsy bitsy amount they've done since the Tivo HD launch 3 years ago, there's not a chance they'll turn on use of the second core within the next couple of years.


I seriously hope you're talking only about the SDUI. I'd agree that I don't think that will ever be re-written to take advantage of the dual-core processor.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

AbMagFab said:


> Not quite right - it has one processor, it's just dual-core. And the reason they didn't "enable" it yet is because they didn't code for it. This is fairly complicated, and isn't something they can just turn on. They likely need to completely rearchitect their application to handle things in parallel, when for now they've been able to assume everything was single-threaded.
> 
> Since they didn't do this rearchitecture at launch, it's highly unlikely it will happen any time soon. And frankly, given the itsy bitsy amount they've done since the Tivo HD launch 3 years ago, there's not a chance they'll turn on use of the second core within the next couple of years.


Sorry, I meant two cores. And how do you know they haven't already been coding them alongside the beta version? They needed something that ran as a whole, but they can also update at a later time. They won't allow a brand new model to be slower than the previous one for years. It just won't happen. That's a death knell.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Multi-threading to get the maximum out of dual core is not a simple thing. Linux, which the TiVo run as its base OS is already multi-core capable, but they still have to design their entire application to run multi-core.

Even if the application is written perfectly with threading, etc, it won't result in a doubling of the speed we are seeing now. Two cores does not equal one core X 2 in raw speed in nearly any real world application.

The only hope for a speed improvement is that they not only get the multi threading stable and working correctly, but that they scrap and re-do the way they are drawing and caching the images, which looks to be a huge bottleneck.

I'm not very optimistic that all of this work will happen any time soon. As others have said, they've been working on this for over a year, but it looks like a project they gave to a few new hires six months ago and this is as far as they've gotten. Makes you wonder what the hell they have been up to all this time and burning so much cash on.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> *I'm beginning to think Tivo Shannon left because she lost faith in Tivo as well.*


Tivo Shannon left! Oh man, I knew TiVoShanan left, but didn't know Tivo Shannon had too!


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## ciucca (Jun 29, 2004)

b_scott said:


> bolded part is pure speculation.
> 
> Sorry, but there really isn't a huge disparity in functionality/price between the two - at least not in the way you seem to think. Moxi boxes are about the same price as a Premiere XL with Lifetime. Tivo can also do OTA, and have a Wireless solution available. You can't hook up Mates to cable, so you're reliant on your one box to serve up all recordings, and there are only 3 tuners total no matter how many Mates you have. There are benefits to both, but Moxi isn't leading the pack as you seem to think.
> 
> I don't know a single person other than me that has even heard of Moxi, but everyone knows Tivo.


Really??! The premiere is looking more like a scam every day. They advertise dual core processor, but then port over their old single threaded code. They advertise a new UI and then it turns out to be only 1 or 2 screens. Like most software companies they want to minimize their development costs by porting existing code into their new platform. I'm sure all they did was run the bulk of it through a different compiler and spend the last year working out the compilation bugs. I highly doubt they are going to spend the money to make the software truly multi-threaded.

The Premiere is a poor effort that appears to have been done with minimal development costs. I'm not going to go into all the things they didn't add to the new box, there are plenty of threads that discuss this. This box is purely a marketing exercise to update the skin and make the shipping box more attractive in order to attract more suckers , err I mean customers.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

9. Offer an "all in one" TiVo purchase option that matches the price of Moxi. $499 for a two tuner box with lifetime service sounds about right.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ciucca said:


> ...I'm sure all they did was run the bulk of it through a different compiler and spend the last year working out the compilation bugs.


You can do that with disparate (old C/new Stagecraft) languages?


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

ciucca said:


> Really??! The premiere is looking more like a scam every day. They advertise dual core processor, but then port over their old single threaded code. They advertise a new UI and then it turns out to be only 1 or 2 screens. Like most software companies they want to minimize their development costs by porting existing code into their new platform. I'm sure all they did was run the bulk of it through a different compiler and spend the last year working out the compilation bugs. I highly doubt they are going to spend the money to make the software truly multi-threaded.
> 
> The Premiere is a poor effort that appears to have been done with minimal development costs. I'm not going to go into all the things they didn't add to the new box, there are plenty of threads that discuss this. This box is purely a marketing exercise to update the skin and make the shipping box more attractive in order to attract more suckers , err I mean customers.


I'm sure a lot of existing code was necessary to make the Premiere compatible with the current S2 and S3's. Unless you wanted to immediately lose all connection to them. Moxi has the luxury of not having to grandfather anything else in. If the Premieres were completely new with no backwards compatible features, people would be jumping ship left and right, and would scream bloody murder. Things like that take time. Just look at MS - they had to backwardly support all OS's to Windows 98 for a long, long time. That stopped their code from really breaking away for awhile. Then they finally gave up DOS. It'll happen with Tivo too, it's just going to take time.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

b_scott said:


> I'm sure a lot of existing code was necessary to make the Premiere compatible with the current S2 and S3's. Unless you wanted to immediately lose all connection to them. Moxi has the luxury of not having to grandfather anything else in. If the Premieres were completely new with no backwards compatible features, people would be jumping ship left and right, and would scream bloody murder. Things like that take time. Just look at MS - they had to backwardly support all OS's to Windows 98 for a long, long time. That stopped their code from really breaking away for awhile. Then they finally gave up DOS. It'll happen with Tivo too, it's just going to take time.


It's funny you make that comparison, seeing as Windows Mobile 7 is a complete departure from all previous versions, breaking all previous compatibility.

MS (like TiVo) needs to worry more about losing customers and mindshare than in enraging a few diehards.


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## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

jmpage2 said:


> I think your prices are off. A 3-tuner Moxi with lifetime service is $599. A TiVo Premiere XL is $399 without service. TiVo Premiere with lifetime is $899. That's a $300 difference and the TiVo box has one fewer tuner.
> 
> Additionally if you want viewing in another room you don't have to buy an entire extra TiVo with service, you just buy the Moxi Mate and stream either live TV or your recordings over a LAN. This is far cheaper than buying another TiVo with lifetime service.
> 
> Even if Moxi doesn't have all the functionality I would like, it is clear that they "get it" and that TiVo does not "get it" when it comes to what consumers expect from this technology.


Buy a Moxi. That way you can't be disappointed by the Premiere and you can move on with your life.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Kablemodem said:


> Buy a Moxi. That way you can't be disappointed by the Premiere and you can move on with your life.


I'm sorry to see that adults can't stand for criticism of TiVo. I *want* TiVo to succeed and produce products I will spend money on. I had a pre-order in for two new Premiers which I cancelled even though I was getting hefty discounts and Fatwallet cash on them.

Companies don't succeed by trying to silence or dump their critics. They succeed by meeting criticism head on and trying to address it.

Don't you want TiVo to succeed so that they will still be offering you a DVR in another 3 years?


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

AbMagFab said:


> The obvious answer is: becuase the speed issues won't be resolved. We'll know in about 36 hours, but I'm willing to bet a diet coke that the speed issues will be just as bad as engadget reported.
> 
> Further, I'll bet another diet coke that they will not improve for 6+ months, if ever. Not until the Series 5, which will update the menus for Season Passes, and completely change DVR viewing forever.


Actually, we won't according to bkdtv. The initial Premiere's will ship with the old interface only. First sentence of his report on page 9:

"The initial version of the HD interface isn't quite ready for release, so early purchasers of the Premiere will receive the v14.0 or v14.1 software without the new interface."

So what did the other reviewers review then? And why isn't it ready at launch?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

BobCamp1 said:


> Actually, we won't according to bkdtv. The initial Premiere's will ship with the old interface only. First sentence of his report on page 9:
> 
> "The initial version of the HD interface isn't quite ready for release, so early purchasers of the Premiere will receive the v14.0 or v14.1 software without the new interface."
> 
> So what did the other reviewers review then?


That was before TiVoPony's announcement (prefacing the Blue Moon story):



TiVoPony said:


> It launched last night - we threw the big switch and the new interface is now available on those shiny new TiVo Premiere DVRs. It's the first time since that original Series1 that we've redone the hardware and the software simultaneously. And there are an amazing number of changes to the service infrastructure as well (although most of that isn't visible to you all). A complete reboot of our product, across all fronts. Series4 is a new start.
> 
> While you're reading this, I'll head straight into the wind - is Series4 perfect? Nope, absolutely not. We know that. There are plenty of things to tweak, and the team is busy working on the next release. Just like any of the products we've launched over the years, there are improvements coming, and always more features to be added. It's what makes owning a TiVo great - it gets better and better as time goes by. The Series4 architecture, and the brand new HD interface give us a great canvas to map out all of the things we've wanted to do over the years. And the features and integration in this first release of the software - tremendous. It redefines what a great television experience should be. I've been here from day one, and I'm here to tell you it's an exciting time at TiVo.


Edit: I personally would have liked to have seen the "big switch" thrown when the HDUI was a bit more complete...


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

jmpage2 said:


> It's funny you make that comparison, seeing as Windows Mobile 7 is a complete departure from all previous versions, breaking all previous compatibility.
> 
> MS (like TiVo) needs to worry more about losing customers and mindshare than in enraging a few diehards.


true, but MS has been around a LITTLE longer than Tivo, and has a few more users. They have established themselves enough that people just have to take what they give them, so they have that power. Tivo on the other hand - if the base dies, Tivo dies.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

orangeboy said:


> I seriously hope you're talking only about the SDUI. I'd agree that I don't think that will ever be re-written to take advantage of the dual-core processor.


Since it's mostly still the SD UI, with only a couple HD UI screens, yes - I'm talking about the HD UI.

And no, I don't think it will ever get substantially faster than it is at launch.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

b_scott said:


> Sorry, I meant two cores. And how do you know they haven't already been coding them alongside the beta version? They needed something that ran as a whole, but they can also update at a later time. *They won't allow a brand new model to be slower than the previous one for years. It just won't happen. That's a death knell*.


I'll bet you a diet coke that the new model will be substantially slower, using the "new UI", than the existing models.

And I hope it's not a death knell, but it might be.

I want Tivo to succeed, but this whole Tivo Premiere thing is really not looking good. They should have waited six months if they actually have some new features almost ready to go - which means it will be much longer than six months before we see any new features, if ever.

Not looking good to me...


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

b_scott said:


> true, but MS has been around a LITTLE longer than Tivo, and has a few more users. They have established themselves enough that people just have to take what they give them, so they have that power. Tivo on the other hand - if the base dies, Tivo dies.


It will certainly be interesting to see how this pans out. Companies that "play it safe" (play to their base) can lose in a recession and poor economic climate. Companies that take risks and are willing to innovate on the other hand can see big payoffs.

How is it that even in a horrible recession Apple is shipping millions of expensive iPhones? If a product is so wonderful that people have to have it then it will sell even in a DEPRESSION as was first seen in the 1930s when at the height of the Great Depression sales of tabletop radios were actually UP to the highest level ever seen.

The decision to play it safe and ensure backwards compatibility with old boxes might very well be TiVos undoing.

They haven't ADDED subscribers in something like three years (admittedly due in large part to DirecTV subs leaving)...

The real issue is whether or not the Premiere staunches the bleeding. If this time next year TiVo shows they've lost another 1M or more subscribers they are going to regret making the "safe" choice.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

And it appears they've shown they are unable to to innovate at all. 10+ years with 75&#37; the same UI. 3+ years with no new features.

They've spent hundreds of millions of dollars in the last 3 years alone, and have the following to show for it:
1) Slightly updated hardware
2) A couple of new screens slapped on top of the existing applications, running super slow, and not taking advantage of the updated hardware.

Shocking. As engaget said - "What have they been doing for the last 3 years?!?"

When even Microsoft is looking way more innovative, you need to start worrying...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> 9. Offer an "all in one" TiVo purchase option that matches the price of Moxi. $499 for a two tuner box with lifetime service sounds about right.


The lower end Premieres with Lifetime cost me $499 before taxes and before the extended warranty.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> The lower end Premieres with Lifetime cost me $499 before taxes and before the extended warranty.


How can you compare the cost of doing lifetime transfers to what a new subscriber pays for a purchase? 

Silly me, I thought TiVo actually wanted to ADD subscribers, not simply try to avoid losing the people they already have locked up with lifetime contracts.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jmpage2 said:


> How can you compare the cost of doing lifetime transfers to what a new subscriber pays for a purchase?
> 
> Silly me, I thought TiVo actually wanted to ADD subscribers, not simply try to avoid losing the people they already have locked up with lifetime contracts.


It's not a lifetime transfer. My old lifetime boxes will still have lifetime on them. I can keep them or sell them or give them away.

Even if I were starting from scratch I would certainly consider the competition but in the end i would not use them. not when it can't transfer recordings to a PC for permanent stroage on a BD or hard drive. Like the TiVo can do. The TiVo boxes meet more of my needs than any other DVR out there.
It is also a good value and allows you to have a smaller upfront cost if you want. instead of forcing you into Lifetime service.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

I know your are rather upset the Series 4 is not the box you were looking for, but from what I have read - the hardware is more then 'slightly updated and there have been a number of new features in the last three years on existing S3 type boxes - even S2 boxes have got some of the love.

Do not forget, the S3 does a lot more now then it did when it was released. And, as a whole, I still think TiVo offers the best DVR package available - even if the Premier was just a pipe dream.

The DVR that seems to be competing most heavily with the Premier is the S3 series. Amazing to me, being compared to its older sibling and being found (maybe) not quite good enough.

I still think the goal is more new subs - and this box will be a huge step up for anyone on a cable DVR (and a smaller step up for anyone on a S3 platform or Moxi).



AbMagFab said:


> And it appears they've shown they are unable to to innovate at all. 10+ years with 75% the same UI. 3+ years with no new features.
> 
> They've spent hundreds of millions of dollars in the last 3 years alone, and have the following to show for it:
> 1) Slightly updated hardware
> ...


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## Capmeister (Jan 20, 2005)

fyodor said:


> Tivo must:
> 
> 1. Strike silently like the eagle, but fiercely like the hawk
> 
> ...


Okay, I don't often literally laugh out loud when I read something on an internet forum, but this was just so awesome!


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> It's not a lifetime transfer. My old lifetime boxes will still have lifetime on them. I can keep them or sell them or give them away.
> 
> Even if I were starting from scratch I would certainly consider the competition but in the end i would not use them. not when it can't transfer recordings to a PC for permanent stroage on a BD or hard drive. Like the TiVo can do. The TiVo boxes meet more of my needs than any other DVR out there.
> It is also a good value and allows you to have a smaller upfront cost if you want. instead of forcing you into Lifetime service.


Please demonstrate how a new TiVo customer can get a Premiere with Lifetime for $499.

K Thanks.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

daveak said:


> I know your are rather upset the Series 4 is not the box you were looking for, but from what I have read - the hardware is more then 'slightly updated and there have been a number of new features in the last three years on existing S3 type boxes - even S2 boxes have got some of the love.
> 
> Do not forget, the S3 does a lot more now then it did when it was released. And, as a whole, I still think TiVo offers the best DVR package available - even if the Premier was just a pipe dream.
> 
> ...


The hardware (and it is only a slight upgrade) is meaningless if it's not being used by the application - and it's not.

I'm not upset as much as I'm disappointed.

And what has Tivo done new in the last 3 years? Amazon has been around that long, and so the addition of a couple others is nada. Tivo Web Casts are still the outcasts of internet programming. HME never got started. The search interface has actually been around a couple of years now, and there's nothing new with the new UI. The comcast box is a complete failure.

Where did they spend the singing lesson money?


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

$239.99 for the box and $199 for the discounted lifetime = $439.98

20% discount is only good if you currently have a TiVo and the discounted lifetime is only good if you currently have lifetime.

You get to keep you lifetime on your existing box, then you can sell it or keep using though units with lifetime get a pretty good price on ebay and make the cost of upgrading minimal.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

I think when they won the original Echostar lawsuit they all went out and started partying.










And then they realized that Echostar was appealing, and that they were screwed.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

except Dish is under the wire and will lose unless it buys Tivo. April 30th..


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

AbMagFab said:


> The hardware (and it is only a slight upgrade) is meaningless if it's not being used by the application - and it's not.
> 
> I'm not upset as much as I'm disappointed.
> 
> ...


With a dual core chip (yes, I know the software is only using one core right now) and transfer speeds up to 4 times faster, how is that only a slight improvement in hardware?

Any DVR that says comcast is a failure, glad we can agree on some things.

I still see things being added in the last three years. They have been listed adnauseum in different threads and I am just too busy (or lazy) to list them again.

It is my humble opinion, but if the Premier grows in features an ability like the S3 did, it will be quite a box - even by the end of 2011. Though if they add too much and it is too good, people will scream bloody murder when an S5 series is released, if it is not a substantial upgrade from the Premier.


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

daveak said:


> $239.99 for the box and $199 for the discounted lifetime = $439.98


I thought you could get the 20% discount *or* the $199 lifetime, but not both on the same new Tivo.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> The hardware (and it is only a slight upgrade) is meaningless if it's not being used by the application - and it's not.
> 
> I'm not upset as much as I'm disappointed.


I've posted this link before, and I'm posting it again:
http://mysite.verizon.net/~fiosdvr/prem_review_01.pdf

The hardware is hardly a slight upgrade.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

NotVeryWitty said:


> I thought you could get the 20% discount *or* the $199 lifetime, but not both on the same new Tivo.


i'm pretty sure you're correct. You get the lifetime discount if you have lifetime, or the box discount otherwise. Not both.


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## amorg777777 (Mar 4, 2010)

Being a "newbie" to Tivo and to this community, I was looking foward to purchasing a new TIVO Premiere. Now after reading "reviews" and comments in this forum - I am not sure whether I should wait for the Premiere OR go ahead and purchase a TIVO HD. I need some help with a purchase, because I am NOW walking the fence on which to buy. Any suggestions will be most welcomed. (I have Comcast HD box/service and a nice Samsung 52" LCD 120hz 1080p digital TV) TIA - amorg777777.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

b_scott said:


> except Dish is under the wire and will lose unless it buys Tivo. April 30th..


So if Dish buys TiVo what do you think the chances are that Premiere is ever finished?

Dish will clean house just like they did with Sling Media.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

amorg777777 said:


> Being a "newbie" to Tivo and to this community, I was looking foward to purchasing a new TIVO Premiere. Now after reading "reviews" and comments in this forum - I am not sure whether I should wait for the Premiere OR go ahead and purchase a TIVO HD. I need some help with a purchase, because I am NOW walking the fence on which to buy. Any suggestions will be most welcomed. (I have Comcast HD box/service and a nice Samsung 52" LCD 120hz 1080p digital TV) TIA - amorg777777.


Here is a comprehensive list of features for comparison between the TiVo HD and the TiVo Premiere (and other HD DVRs available): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1204433

To note: the Premiere has more horsepower under the hood, so at present it will outperform the TiVo HD when using the Standard Definition User Interface, and supports 1080p. The tech reviews have stated that the HDUI is incomplete, and apparently slow. It has been mentioned that the cause is that the HDUI is only utilizing half of the dual core processor within the Premiere.

My suggestion for best long term plans, the Premiere is the way to go, because the UI in the TiVo HD will not be updated to HD, and the hardware has about 1/3 the processing power of the Premiere. If you want instant gratification, the TiVo HD may be gotten on the cheap through eBay.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> So if Dish buys TiVo what do you think the chances are that Premiere is ever finished?
> 
> Dish will clean house just like they did with Sling Media.


Dish will ending paying a LOT more (to the TiVo shareholders) then what they owe TiVo due to the poison pill clause. Dish would be foolish to attempt such a buyout.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

nrc said:


> I predict that the worst of the lag will be resolved on the version that downloads when Premieres are shipped. It will be just fine and some of these reviewers will look like fools for harping about something they were told was an issue due to the pre-release nature of their version.
> 
> At least I hope.


While the speed is less than ideal currently for the UI, it doesn't seem like this should hamper actual usability much. Most people don't sit and cruise around the UI, but go in there to pick something to record. And even more new users are probably so used to doing everything through the guide, that they won't even see this part of the UI.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Kablemodem said:


> Buy a Moxi. That way you can't be disappointed by the Premiere and you can move on with your life.


I agree. Money talks, and the only way to REALLY change things is to drop TiVo and get a competitor.


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