# New TiVO Coming?



## hybucket

Swanni at TV Predictions says to expect a HD TiVO, probably within the next three months, for $299. The link is here, if this works...
http://www.tvpredictions.com/askswanni071207.htm


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## HDTiVo

He must read gizmodo, the blogs and this forum.


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## Mike Lang

I have all the info you guys need, I'm just not allowed to actually tell you any of it.


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## Kablemodem

Mike Lang said:


> I have all the info you guys need, I'm just not allowed to actually tell you any of it.


Just type it and you don't have to tell us anything.


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## sandenurse

Mike Lang said:


> I have all the info you guys need, I'm just not allowed to actually tell you any of it.


OK, we'll be nice. Just tell us WHEN we will KNOW the specifics. Some of us have to talk with Santa.


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## Mike Lang

It'll be old news by the time Santa rolls around.


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## ncbagwell

Mike - hearing anything on MRV/TTG/TTCB for the Series 3?


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## ADG

Mike Lang said:


> I have all the info you guys need, I'm just not allowed to actually tell you any of it.


Other than ego, why would you even bother to post something like that? If you have nothing to say, why not do just that?


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## Kablemodem

ADG said:


> Other than ego, why would you even bother to post something like that? If you have nothing to say, why not do just that?


I think he said a lot.


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## Mike Lang

ADG said:


> Other than ego, why would you even bother to post something like that? If you have nothing to say, why not do just that?


Just to see who would whine first.


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## bidger

So, you recant?


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## jlib

Mike Lang said:


> I have all the info you guys need, I'm just not allowed to actually tell you any of it.


That's OK, just create a new account with a new alias and blab to your heart's content.


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## steve614

ncbagwell said:


> Mike - hearing anything on MRV/TTG/TTCB for the Series 3?


So far, bad news...



ADG said:


> If you have nothing to say, why not do just that?


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## wolflord11

Maybe they will be offering a Series 3 for $299.99

BUT: Instead of paying $12.99 a Month for a 3 Year Commitment, they will charge $32.99 a Month.

As for MRV/TTG/TTCB, we have already been told its coming some time be it in 2008, 2009 or somewhere around there


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## bidger

wolflord11 said:


> Maybe they will be offering a Series 3 for $299.99
> 
> BUT: Instead of paying $12.99 a Month for a 3 Year Commitment, they will charge $32.99 a Month.


Let me be the first to say, f*$% that.

How about this, drop all the hoopla crap and just let me record live TV in HD (include ATSC because I'm not going back to cable) to view when I want. No TTG/MRV/TiVoCast/Live365/etc., sh*t I really had no use for when I had a standalone, and let me do it for $79.95 per year or less. Maybe then I'll be interested.


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## davezatz

HDTiVo said:


> He must read gizmodo, the blogs and this forum.


Yup.


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## HDTiVo

davezatz said:


> Yup.


Where's my beer????????


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## GoHokies!

jlib said:


> That's OK, just create a new account with a new alias and blab to your heart's content.


Because a moderator breaking the rules (one login per person) would be right up there with hinting at (what one would think is, or at least should be if this is true) NDA protected information.


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## jrm01

A major CE retailer was just notified that the new Tivo-lite will be in the store the week of August 5-12. It is currently named "Fusion", but will likely just be called Tivo HD. The specs on it are:

price: $299
source: Digital cable, digital antenna
NO THX certification
Dual tuner
Storage: 20 hrs HD, 180 hrs. SD
No front panel display
Standard remote

Support for SP, WL, KidZone, Online scheduling, Digital music player, Digital photo viewer, Home Movie sharing, Amazon Unbox, Univ Swivel Search

Both the S3 and Lite will have TTG and MRV PRIOR TO THE END OF 2007.


Based on this it seems the cost savings are:

1/2 the storage
No THX
Digital-only tuners
No front panel display
Standard remote (I assume this means the peanut)


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## Arcady

So I won't be able to tune any of the analog cable channels? (Most of my SD cable channels are non-digital.) If I can't record the Sci Fi Channel or other basic programming, it's fairly worthless to me.

I don't care about THX or the silly display on the front. And I can install a larger hard drive any time I like, so they could sell it with a 10gb drive for all I care.


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## MickeS

jrm01 said:


> Based on this it seems the cost savings are:
> 
> 1/2 the storage
> No THX
> Digital-only tuners
> No front panel display
> Standard remote (I assume this means the peanut)


I'm sorry, but... WTF? No analog tuner? That doesn't make any sense. It can't be right.


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## cgould

jrm01 said:


> A major CE retailer was just notified that the new Tivo-lite will be in the store the week of August 5-12. It is currently named "Fusion", but will likely just be called Tivo HD. The specs on it are:
> 
> price: $299
> source: Digital cable, digital antenna
> NO THX certification
> Dual tuner
> Storage: 20 hrs HD, 180 hrs. SD
> No front panel display
> Standard remote
> 
> Support for SP, WL, KidZone, Online scheduling, Digital music player, Digital photo viewer, Home Movie sharing, Amazon Unbox, Univ Swivel Search
> 
> Both the S3 and Lite will have TTG and MRV PRIOR TO THE END OF 2007.
> 
> Based on this it seems the cost savings are:
> 
> 1/2 the storage
> No THX
> Digital-only tuners
> No front panel display
> Standard remote (I assume this means the peanut)


What's the benefit if the HDD is the same size as Motorola 6412 Comcast DVR, when by then the Moto box will run Tivo software also? (and can record analog cable channels, and handle SDV/PPV/VOD)?
OK, it does the network stuff, but... this seems to be kind of cross-marketing...?

90% of the benefit of S3 over the Moto box is the bigger HDD and stable interface. Kind of hard to justify $300 price over a free Comcast DVR...
I'm all for cheaper & more Tivo boxes, just seems a bit strange planning...

but the TTG/MRV news if true is very welcome indeed (and that WOULD make a big difference to getting a real Tivo Lite box vs Comcast box.)


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## jrm01

MickeS said:


> I'm sorry, but... WTF? No analog tuner? That doesn't make any sense. It can't be right.


I agree. That is the way it was presented, but I'm hoping that it was done in error. I know it would save money (not much), but it's hard to believe they would cut this.


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## DTG

jrm01 said:


> Based on this it seems the cost savings are:
> 
> 1/2 the storage
> No THX
> Digital-only tuners
> No front panel display
> Standard remote (I assume this means the peanut)I'm sorry, but... .





MickeS said:


> WTF? No analog tuner? That doesn't make any sense. It can't be right.


I currently have Comcrap Extended Basic, and get every channel in digital except one very obscure PBS channel in analog. This did not increase my payment of about $40 per month, but is only available through a Cable card. And the quality is better than analog.

Since Comcrap wants to delete the analog channels, and probably will by 2010, this decision would eliminate one of 100 channels.


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## jmpage2

Will it have an eSATA port on it for external storage expansion? The version on Gizmodo gave some indication that this "S3 Lite" might have Cable Card 2.0 support also.


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## HDTiVo

Nice to see TiVo will be shipping the DVR I said 17 months ago they should make at the price I said 12 months ago they should charge.

More Signs of Lite


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## Kablemodem

HDTiVo said:


> Nice to see TiVo will be shipping the DVR I said 17 months ago they should make at the price I said 12 months ago they should charge.
> 
> More Signs of Lite


I wouldn't give that blog much credibility since the author labels the S3 a fiasco, which couldn't be further from the truth.


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## jmpage2

Kablemodem said:


> I wouldn't give that blog much credibility since the author labels the S3 a fiasco, which couldn't be further from the truth.


From a financial perspective it probably is a disaster. Weak sales of the S3 certainly haven't helped Tivo.


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## Justin Thyme

MickeS said:


> I'm sorry, but... WTF? No analog tuner? That doesn't make any sense. It can't be right.


I agree- As many of us here know- a very large percentage of channels in the "Digital" tier are actually delivered in Analog. About 85% of the channels I record are analog.

So I think someone's imagination has gone off the deep end. They are guessing that analog is not necessary after the OTA shutoff. Not so- it is nearly 50% of the cable sub market. Total Analog.

If you want to watch analog on a big screen, the best idea is to either get an Algolith flea upscaler for $995 or get an S3, because the cable boxes just don't do the job.


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## jfh3

hybucket said:


> Swanni at TV Predictions says to expect a HD TiVO, probably within the next three months, for $299.


I'm amazed that anyone still bothers to read "news" from Swanni, one of the most clueless and pompous industry wannabe's out there.

Surprised that the hard drive is going to be smaller than 250GB - you would think Tivo would want larger capacity than the standard MSO DVR as a selling point, assuming they ever do a "Tivo to cable" comparasion chart.


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## moyekj

jrm01 said:


> Based on this it seems the cost savings are:
> 1/2 the storage
> No THX
> Digital-only tuners
> No front panel display
> Standard remote (I assume this means the peanut)


 Smart moves by Tivo. At least for my case:
1/2 the storage - doesn't matter: in fact it should just sell with a tiny drive big enough for the OS and let the consumer pick a hard drive for the video portion.

No THX - not sure really what THX certification really gives you other than bragging rights?

Digital-only tuners - Don't care. With cablecards there are no analog channels in my lineup. From AVS forums it seems like most of the big cable companies are digital simulcasting most or all channels in analog lineup. NOTE: The real cost savings there is not getting rid of NTSC tuners, it's the mpeg encoders.

No front panel display - can't read the darn thing on the S3 anyway.

Standard remote - Never use the OEM remotes, a universal remote is the only way to go.

They should also get rid of the front panel buttons if they haven't already...

Makes me almost regret my 2nd S3 purchase for $400 after rebate... but then again $100 more is not much to fret about.


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## Neenahboy

So what are the odds on them screwing us with no HDMI on the Lite as a model differentiation tactic?


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## moyekj

Neenahboy said:


> So what are the odds on them screwing us with no HDMI on the Lite as a model differentiation tactic?


 Don't think they would do that but honestly I wouldn't care about that either. I hate the DRM-loaded HDMI output anyway and component looks just as good to me on my 47" Westinghouse LCD without the hassles or problems.


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## HDTiVo

jfh3 said:


> Surprised that the hard drive is going to be smaller than 250GB - you would think Tivo would want larger capacity than the standard MSO DVR as a selling point, assuming they ever do a "Tivo to cable" comparasion chart.


I have mixed feelings about this. Personally I would just as soon take it for less $$ with no HD. Anything they ship is going to be useless to me.

On the other hand, from a market standpoint, doing less than 250 GB for the cheap-o-s3-lite makes me uncomfortable. (Edit: _I'll dovetail this into my belief that TiVo is about to ship/price the right DVR for last year's market._)

It is absurd that the so-called premium S3 still ships with only a 250GB HD. Perhaps they have so many sitting in the warehouse that they are still selling off.



Neenahboy said:


> So what are the odds on them screwing us with no HDMI on the Lite as a model differentiation tactic?


I'll guess less than 0%.

Which is also going to be my guess for lack of analog recording capability.


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## jfh3

HDTiVo said:


> I have mixed feelings about this. Personally I would just as soon take it for less $$ with no HD. Anything they ship is going to be useless to me.
> 
> On the other hand, from a market standpoint, doing less than 250 GB for the cheap-o-s3-lite makes me uncomfortable. (Edit: _I'll dovetail this into my belief that TiVo is about to ship/price the right DVR for last year's market._)
> 
> It is absurd that the so-called premium S3 still ships with only a 250GB HD. Perhaps they have so many sitting in the warehouse that they are still selling off.


I agree with you that whatever size drive will be useless to me, as I'll replace it, but we aren't the target market. And, if they make the external hard drive connection officially supported with the software update and offer a Tivo-branded "plug and play" external drive option, much like the Tivo-branded wireless G adapter, then the size of the shipping harddrive won't really matter.

I don't really care about the size of the hard drive in the "premium" S3 either, for the same reason. I'm not going to lose any sleep over "how come the S3lite is pretty much the same as the S3, but $500 less" - all I want to see is Tivo significantly increase the number of S3 boxes of either variety in the marketplace ASAP.


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## jfh3

Another thought - if the S3lite is indeed as rumored and is at $299, why would Tivo continue to market the S2DT?

Does the S3lite become "the" TiVo box?


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## jfh3

HDTiVo said:


> (Edit: _I'll dovetail this into my belief that TiVo is about to ship/price the right DVR for last year's market._)


What is the right DVR/price for this year's market?


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## HDTiVo

> if they make the external hard drive connection officially supported


 For the general market, I am not very enthusiastic about adding an external hard drive.



jfh3 said:


> Another thought - if the S3lite is indeed as rumored and is at $299, why would Tivo continue to market the S2DT?
> 
> Does the S3lite become "the" TiVo box?


No, the S2 market still has some life in it. Why throw away the 30, 50, even 80K Gross Ads per quarter you could still get at current prices?

The questionable one is the S3. I see very little reason for its continued existence. If they lower the price to $399 you have to wonder if they lose too much money on it. Above that, there are not going to be enough takers to make it worthwhile.



> What is the right DVR/price for this year's market?


Like I said when the S3 was introduced, its not going to bother me if they grab some low hanging fanboys for $299 for a short while. But they need to come down $50, maybe $70 for XMAS to really hit it big. So I hope they can afford that.

Also, they need to have the guts to believe that their subs will stick around a while and dump the commitment/$16.95 [email protected] that is retarding sales.

For the box per se, more of a DMR which can support accessing content from a broad range of internet sources, and support various standard formats and DRM, and particularly protected WMV. And a bigger HD.


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## jfh3

HDTiVo said:


> No, the S2 market still has some life in it. The questionable one is the S3. I see very little reason for its continued existence.


I agree, but if there is little functional difference between the S3s - why care? Have a firesale to blow out remaining stock and leave a few for high-end AV "status" dealers to sell.



> Like I said when the S3 was introduced, its not going to bother me if they grab some low hanging fanboys for $299 for a short while. But they need to come down $50, maybe $70 for XMAS to really hit it big. So I hope they can afford that.


The magic price point would seem to be $99.



> Also, they need to have the guts to believe that their subs will stick around a while and dump the commitment/$16.95 [email protected] that is retarding sales.


Agreed, especially for used boxes. And the standard monthly service charge should be less than whatever the average MSO DVR rental is.



> For the box per se, more of a DMR which can support accessing content from a broad range of internet sources, and support various standard formats and DRM, and particularly protected WMV.


Can't the S3 do all that with the appropriate software?


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## Arcady

500gb drives cost $47 in bulk. Why would they even continue to deal with 250gb, let alone smaller junk?


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## HDTiVo

jfh3 said:


> The magic price point would seem to be $99.


Why?



> Can't the S3 do all that with the appropriate software?


I hope so. Where is the software? Its time to download some Hi Def movies like with the Xbox.


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## HDTiVo

Arcady said:


> 500gb drives cost $47 in bulk. Why would they even continue to deal with 250gb, let alone smaller junk?


TiVo doesn't know how to excite people about buying their product?


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## jfh3

HDTiVo said:


> Why?


$49 or $99 are considered "impulse buy" price points in the CE world. (To a lesser extent, $149 and $199). I say $99 just because I don't see any practical way to even consider $49.

$299 is still a big ticket item, especially if people incorrectly believe "that cable DVRs are free".


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## HDTiVo

jfh3 said:


> $49 or $99 are considered "impulse buy" price points in the CE world. (To a lesser extent, $149 and $199). I say $99 just because I don't see any practical way to even consider $49.
> 
> $299 is still a big ticket item, especially if people incorrectly believe "that cable DVRs are free".


Oh, I see. Of course there is no practical way to price the S3-Lite at $99 in the current context.

I say "finance" it for *zero down * and an extra $X,Y,Z per month for 1,2,3 years over (more reasonable) service pricing. Of course, you don't present it that way. Its $16.95/mo for 3 years or $18.95/mo for 2 years, or whatever.

Or its $299 and $9.95/mo, or $599 w/ Lifetime, or whatever. Once you go above zero down, forget variability of monthly rates; just give people the choice of an *all-in price*, or a box price and a low monthly service fee which they can understand the value of.

_Note: These numbers are intended to be illustrative of the concepts, not precise prices._


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## Arcady

How about TV my way, instead of the MPAA's way?


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## HDTiVo

Arcady said:


> How about TV my way, instead of the MPAA's way?


You mean TiVo has been too submissive to those kinds of interests over the years to its detriment with the consumer?


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## Arcady

What I mean is that I shouldn't have to re-encode video through a hacked firewire interface that ignores macrovision in order to get an Amazon unbox video onto a DVD. I paid for the video; I should be able to do what I want with it for my own personal use.


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## jfh3

HDTiVo said:


> Or its $299 and $9.95/mo, or $599 w/ Lifetime, or whatever. Once you go above zero down, forget variablity of monthly rates; just give people the choice of an *all-in price*, or a box price and a low monthly service fee which they can understand the value of.


Yeah, except the problem with that is that people say "why am I paying $x for guide data" and don't understand the concept of the "TiVo service".

I'm afraid if you go back to the "bundle service with the box model", that you allow the MSOs to keep the upper hand by marketing "free DVRs".


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## jtlytle

I'm hoping that S4 will have FOUR TUNERS !! Because there are over hundreds of channels and you have to pick 2 ??


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## Redux

HDTiVo said:


> Like I said when the S3 was introduced, its not going to bother me if they grab some low hanging fanboys for $299 for a short while. But they need to come down $50, maybe $70 for XMAS to really hit it big. So I hope they can afford that.
> 
> Also, they need to have the guts to believe that their subs will stick around a while and dump the commitment/$16.95 [email protected] that is retarding sales.
> 
> For the box per se, more of a DMR which can support accessing content from a broad range of internet sources, and support various standard formats and DRM, and particularly protected WMV. And a bigger HD.


I want a pony.


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## DCIFRTHS

> Originally Posted by ncbagwell
> Mike - hearing anything on MRV/TTG/TTCB for the Series 3?





steve614 said:


> So far, bad news...


Steve: Bad news? I'm not happy to hear that. What are you basing your comment on?


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## DCIFRTHS

jrm01 said:


> ... Both the S3 and Lite will have TTG and MRV PRIOR TO THE END OF 2007. ...


Well. That's good news... Is this a prediction or do you have some solid evidence that you can point to?


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## jrm01

> Justin Thyme said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree- As many of us here know- a very large percentage of channels in the "Digital" tier are actually delivered in Analog. About 85% of the channels I record are analog.
> 
> So I think someone's imagination has gone off the deep end. They are guessing that analog is not necessary after the OTA shutoff. Not so- it is nearly 50% of the cable sub market. Total Analog.
> 
> 
> 
> I have absolutely no facts or figures on this, but I would guess that with the advent of SDV, digital simulcast, and local station HDTV availability the percentage of viewing of analog for those with HDTV would be very small. My guess would be less than 20%, and shrinking.
Click to expand...


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## bkdtv

jrm01 said:


> I have absolutely no facts or figures on this, but I would guess that with the advent of SDV, digital simulcast, and local station HDTV availability the percentage of viewing of analog for those with HDTV would be very small. My guess would be less than 20%, and shrinking.


By end 2007, ~100% of Comcast systems are supposed to have digital simulcast and the other majors (Time Warner, Cox, etc) aren't far behind.

I would bet at least half those that receive analog channels now only do so due to a configuration error at the headend, which prevents the digital simulcast from taking precedence over the analog feeds on the Tivo Series3. As for what will happen with these misconfigured systems when the analog channels are removed, I do not know.

The lack of an analog tuner should only be a problem for those with smaller, independent cable providers, but that represents a small slice of the market. They can always buy the original Series3.


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## jrm01

DCIFRTHS said:


> Well. That's good news... Is this a prediction or do you have some solid evidence that you can point to?


Info provided to major ce retailer by Tivo.

Of course it didn't mention what restrictions may be included, specifically whether cable-provided HDTV would be included.


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## HDTiVo

jfh3 said:


> Yeah, except the problem with that is that people say "why am I paying $x for guide data" and don't understand the concept of the "TiVo service".
> 
> I'm afraid if you go back to the "bundle service with the box model", that you allow the MSOs to keep the upper hand by marketing "free DVRs".


Isn't the first what is happening now?

Isn't the "bundle service with the box model" going on now?


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## sandenurse

I want to know...why the S3s don't do satelites? Why is Tivo denying the consumers an option to swich sources.


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## SullyND

sandenurse said:


> I want to know...why the S3s don't do satelites? Why is Tivo denying the consumers an option to swich sources.


Would you pay more than 2x the cost of an S3 for one that could do Satellite? The technology to record HD from an external STB is currently not a consumer level technology and is very expensive. The real question is why are satellite companies denying consumers the option of TiVo?


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## sandenurse

SullyND said:


> Would you pay more than 2x the cost of an S3 for one that could do Satellite? The technology to record HD from an external STB is currently not a consumer level technology and is very expensive. The real question is why are satellite companies denying consumers the option of TiVo?


I don't understand why once we have the HD DATA ( either from the CC or Sat box, that DIGITAL DATA can not be recorded to the hard drive.

Isn't Digital Data, *digital data*. Why would it cost 2x the price to add that feature?


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## scustin

I have no inside news but expect announcements in the next month or so.

As of March the FCC no longer allows TV equipment to be manufactured with only analog tuners. Anything already in the warehouse can continue to be sold, but stores are required to post signs warning consumers that all broadcast TV is scheduled to be digital in Feb 09.

The fall TV retailing season pretty much follows football. New models hit stores in late August/early September and marketing ramps up for the peak around Christmas followed by spring model launches and a clearance sale for Super Bowl.

Manufacturers and retailers will probably have a big push this fal to convince consumers that they need to replace existing analog-only TVs, VCR, etc, rather than buy a converter and wait for the old stuff to die.

Sony, Panasonic, etc, have announced their fall large-screen TV models over the past few weeks but I've noticed a dearth of news about new smaller-size TVs or recorders (VCR/DVR/DVD). They probably realize that sales of analog-only models will dry up once they announce new digital units at the same price points.

So TiVo and the rest have chosen to stay mum, offer big discounts and hope to get rid of as many of the discontinued models as possible over the summer.

This quiet period will also allow TiVo to take advantage of a new generation of hard drives to reduce component costs without cutting capacity. Anything less than 250gb will have limited functionality in the digital era, especially on multi-tuner models.

Just wait a few more weeks and all should be revealed.


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## bicker

cgould said:


> What's the benefit if the HDD is the same size as Motorola 6412 Comcast DVR, when by then the Moto box will run Tivo software also?


Some of the biggest issues with the Motorola DVRs are likely to be in firmware, and therefore won't be affected by the deployment of TiVo software on them.



cgould said:


> 90% of the benefit of S3 over the Moto box is the bigger HDD and stable interface.


I agree with you, but a lot -- *a lot* -- of people here feel that the Motorola DVRs are little better than doorstops. While we disagree with them, we still have to respect their personal preferences in this regard as justification for the market for the S3-lite @ $299, even if configured as per this latest report.



cgould said:


> Kind of hard to justify $300 price over a free Comcast DVR...


True, also there is no monthly price advantage either:

With the TiVo: $8.95 for TiVo (with a three-year commitment) 
plus $5.50 for Comcast for two CableCards*;​
With the Comcast DVR:$13.72 for Comcast (with no commitment)
-- though that fee from Comcast is going to be going up soon​
* For those who want to figure it with one CableCard included, you need to recompute the Comcast DVR numbers to match:

With the TiVo: $8.95 for TiVo (with a three-year commitment) 
plus $2.75 for Comcast for one additional CableCards;​
With the Comcast DVR:$9.95 for Comcast (with no commitment)
-- though that fee from Comcast is going to be going up soon​


cgould said:


> but the TTG/MRV news if true is very welcome indeed (and that WOULD make a big difference to getting a real Tivo Lite box vs Comcast box.)


I doubt that this is the intended market for the box, but surely if MRV works with HD recordings, I think that would represent a pretty significant motivation for current S3 owners to get an S3 Lite.


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## SullyND

sandenurse said:


> I don't understand why once we have the HD DATA ( either from the CC or Sat box, that DIGITAL DATA can not be recorded to the hard drive.
> 
> Isn't Digital Data, *digital data*. Why would it cost 2x the price to add that feature?


Digital Data is digital data. Digital data as it enters the home is compressed, as it goes to the TV (via HDMI, etc) is not compressed. Recording non-compressed HD would require exceedingly large hard drives, compressing the video in real time would require technology which is exceedingly expensive.

DirecTV and DISH do not allow TiVo to record the compressed signal.


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## SullyND

scustin said:


> I have no inside news but expect announcements in the next month or so.
> 
> As of March the FCC no longer allows TV equipment to be manufactured with only analog tuners. Anything already in the warehouse can continue to be sold, but stores are required to post signs warning consumers that all broadcast TV is scheduled to be digital in Feb 09.





scustin said:


> So TiVo and the rest have chosen to stay mum, offer big discounts and hope to get rid of as many of the discontinued models as possible over the summer.


TiVo hasn't sold a DVR which is affected by the FCC ruling re:analog tuners for some time.


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## bicker

Arcady said:


> So I won't be able to tune any of the analog cable channels?


Just one data-point: We've never used the analog tuner in our S3. YMMV, of course, but in the interest of substantiating a price difference between S3 and S3 Lite, removing the analog tuners is not a bad approach IMHO.


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## sbiller

MickeS said:


> I'm sorry, but... WTF? No analog tuner? That doesn't make any sense. It can't be right.


I believe my Cable Cards receive all of the channels offered by my cable service provider, Brighthouse networks. I'm guessing the lack of an analog tuner would be a don't care since I'll receive all of the programming via CC.


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## bicker

moyekj said:


> NOTE: The real cost savings there is not getting rid of NTSC tuners, it's the mpeg encoders.


Thanks for that clarification.


----------



## bicker

sandenurse said:


> I want to know...why the S3s don't do satelites? Why is Tivo denying the consumers an option to swich sources.


You've got it backwards: The satellite services have closed their doors to TiVo.


----------



## hybucket

jfh3 said:


> I'm amazed that anyone still bothers to read "news" from Swanni, one of the most clueless and pompous industry wannabe's out there.


Say what you will, but unlike many other "industry wannabes," he responds to reader's emails, and...well, his site was the first I'd heard of the new TiVO Lite. So I guess he's accomplishing what he wants, and that's inform.


----------



## TheNumberSix

My cable company has 100% digital simulcast in my market, so I'd be very interested in this box.


----------



## mike_camden

How do we know if our analog channels are being digital simulcast? I asked a Comcast CSR a few months ago, but itwas obvious that she had no idea what I was talking about.


----------



## moyekj

mike_camden said:


> How do we know if our analog channels are being digital simulcast? I asked a Comcast CSR a few months ago, but itwas obvious that she had no idea what I was talking about.


 If you currently have a cable company set top box (or know someone who has one) you can check the box diagnostics while tuned to channels in the analog lineup to see if they are digital or not. For example, if diagnostics report modulation scheme as QAM then you know they are digital. This is how I was originally building up my spreadsheet for my local headend (in my sig). For the Motorola DCTxxx or DCHxxx series you can find details here of getting to diagnostics:
http://replayguide.sourceforge.net/dct6412/DCT6412_Passport.html#Tips_and_Tricks

Obviously with the S3 it's a lot easier to tell from the diagnostics menu if you are tuned to digital or analog stations (among other methods).


----------



## HDTiVo

hybucket said:


> Say what you will, but unlike many other "industry wannabes," he responds to reader's emails, and...well, his site was the first I'd heard of the new TiVO Lite. So I guess he's accomplishing what he wants, and that's inform.


And then folks come here and we repair the damage.


----------



## HDTiVo

If this thing doesn't record/encode analog cable it is going to be a flop. It might not even sell as many as the S3, and that would be disasterous.

I can't imagine there is a snowball's chance in hell it is going to turn out that way.

So now I've set myself up for looking stupid.


----------



## sbiller

HDTiVo said:


> If this thing doesn't record/encode analog cable it is going to be a flop. It might not even sell as many as the S3, and that would be disasterous.
> 
> I can't imagine there is a snowball's chance in hell it is going to turn out that way.
> 
> So now I've set myself up for looking stupid.


What is your reasoning behind this? Most cable cos are moving to a 100% digital delivery model so analog receivers with internal MPEG encoding just doesn't make a lot of sense from a ROI perspective.

VR, Sam


----------



## HDTiVo

sbiller said:


> What is your reasoning behind this? Most cable cos are moving to a 100% digital delivery model so analog receivers with internal MPEG encoding just doesn't make a lot of sense from a ROI perspective.
> 
> VR, Sam


First, there is a lot of debate about that. The FCC Commissioner might want one thing. The rest of the Commission another. Congress may want a third. No one knows what will happen.

Second, it isn't done now, however TiVo is selling the box now. Maybe they could sell that in one or two years, at which point this box is obsolete anyway from a competitve standpoint; we're already onto the S3-Lite2.

Third, the family of parts TiVo uses to build these machines has all the functionality built in. I can't see more than a trivial amount of cost savings.

To offer a box which will not fully satisfy a large portion of the cable market for virtually no cost advantage would be crazy.


----------



## Justin Thyme

mike_camden said:


> How do we know if our analog channels are being digital simulcast? I asked a Comcast CSR a few months ago, but itwas obvious that she had no idea what I was talking about.


Here is another a little bit more clear guide to determining whether a station is true digital or just a remapped analog.

For those systems using Scientific atlanta equipment (Time Warner for example), here is the guide for those folks.

Cablecard subscribers of analog remain at near 50%, and it will be a while before cable cajoles them all into taking an stb for all of the TV sets in their home which will otherwise go dark.

Personally, I am skeptical about this rumor about Tivo lite being all digital, although it is concievable Tivo could chop out those chips from the low end and put analog hookups on a premium S3 that supported satellite as well as cable. Folks wanting analog support without a cable STB could use the S2 DT. So it would give a spread of product offerings.

I think the most important new Tivo coming is one No One is talking about and everyone has access to (that is, everyone except Comcast Tivo lite). It's Tivo's other half- you use it whenever you use Swivel search, and it's one honking piece of iron that has virtually limitless application possibilities.


----------



## 483

Just to be sure I am understanding....

Any channel that I can get with my current S3 through the cable cards, I will be able to pull with this new receiver?

Essentially in my case would only lose OTA HD but could use comcast for local HD?


----------



## Justin Thyme

No. Because your cablecard could be mapping an analog channel. As far as you know it is a digital channel, because your lineup says it is in the digital tier, and you are tuning a different number than the analog customers tune to. 

If you are curious about a channel, go to it on the S3 and hit record. If it asks you what quality to record at, its an analog channel.


----------



## classicsat

jfh3 said:


> Another thought - if the S3lite is indeed as rumored and is at $299, why would Tivo continue to market the S2DT?
> 
> Does the S3lite become "the" TiVo box?


Only if it supports external STBs.

Now, they they could make a tunerless Series 2 with only one A/V input for cable, satellite, or IPTV box, but I don't think they'd do that.


----------



## classicsat

Arcady said:


> What I mean is that I shouldn't have to re-encode video through a hacked firewire interface that ignores macrovision in order to get an Amazon unbox video onto a DVD. I paid for the video; I should be able to do what I want with it for my own personal use.


No, you paid that price for the right to use the video in a limited fashion for personal use. If you want fewer restrictions, you would pay more from the provider of the video for that right, or purchase from another source or medium that has fewer restrictions. And claiming "personal use" changes nothing. And if you want a DVD, you go buy the DVD.


----------



## classicsat

sandenurse said:


> I don't understand why once we have the HD DATA ( either from the CC or Sat box, that DIGITAL DATA can not be recorded to the hard drive.
> 
> Isn't Digital Data, *digital data*. Why would it cost 2x the price to add that feature?


Satellite receivers don't put put MPEG2 though. The output either analog or HDMI, both of which are uncompressed straight video.

The only cost effective video to encode is SD video, which the Series 2 does just fine.


----------



## classicsat

sandenurse said:


> I want to know...why the S3s don't do satelites? Why is Tivo denying the consumers an option to swich sources.


Because the Series 2 does satellite.

The Series 3 is made to directly tune digital/ analog OTA and/or cable.


----------



## bkdtv

sandenurse said:


> I don't understand why once we have the HD DATA ( either from the CC or Sat box, that DIGITAL DATA can not be recorded to the hard drive.
> 
> Isn't Digital Data, *digital data*. Why would it cost 2x the price to add that feature?


Satellite data may be digital, but it is also encrypted. Satellite providers like Dish Network (and now DirecTV) have refused to provide Tivo access to their encryption systems, hence Tivo has no way to decrypt and display that digital data.

The Tivo Series2 is able to record analog SD output from a Dish or DirecTV STB. However, recording high-definition analog output from a Dish or DirecTV STB is very expensive (and involves quality loss), as noted by other posters.


----------



## peteypete

Mike Lang said:


> I have all the info you guys need, I'm just not allowed to actually tell you any of it.


Now Mike, that's not nice!! Speak through your dog or something!


----------



## jfh3

scustin said:


> This quiet period will also allow TiVo to take advantage of a new generation of hard drives to reduce component costs without cutting capacity. Anything less than 250gb will have limited functionality in the digital era, especially on multi-tuner models.


Which is why the idea of anything less than 250GB in the S3lite doesn't make any sense, unless there is a significant cost savings by going with a smaller drive.


----------



## Arcady

classicsat said:


> No, you paid that price for the right to use the video in a limited fashion for personal use. If you want fewer restrictions, you would pay more from the provider of the video for that right, or purchase from another source or medium that has fewer restrictions. And claiming "personal use" changes nothing. And if you want a DVD, you go buy the DVD.


Tell me where to buy video without all these silly restrictions, and I will. And the movie I bought from Amazon is only available from two places: Amazon and iTunes. The DVD doesn't come out for months.

Apple has started on the right path by offering music without all this DRM nonsense. Hopefully it is the first step in unencumbering consumer electronics and opening things up so people can use content they purchase however they want. TiVo seems to be going in the other direction.


----------



## bicker

HDTiVo said:


> So now I've set myself up for looking stupid.


Funny -- I was thinking the same thing!


----------



## jrm01

********* said:


> Just to be sure I am understanding....
> 
> Any channel that I can get with my current S3 through the cable cards, I will be able to pull with this new receiver?
> 
> Essentially in my case would only lose OTA HD but could use comcast for local HD?


You would not lose OTA HD, that would be included.

If the Tivo does not have an analog tuner you would lose the analog channels, even if using the CC.


----------



## Adam1115

sbiller said:


> What is your reasoning behind this? Most cable cos are moving to a 100% digital delivery model so analog receivers with internal MPEG encoding just doesn't make a lot of sense from a ROI perspective.
> 
> VR, Sam


Some are moving to 100% digital delivery, some are moving certain channels. But *MOST* cable companies still offer SIGNIFICANT content on analag. Also, *MOST* cable companies charge a LOT more for digital cable, cable cards, etc.

No way am I going to pay an extra $50/mo just to get the 'digital tier' to use my TiVo... Analog for the handful of cable channels I watch on occasion is fine. OTA-HD is all I need.


----------



## Arcady

Many of the channels in my "digital" tier (over 70 channels in fact) are actually analog. This is on Time Warner Cable in Dallas, not some rinky-dink cable company.


----------



## sbiller

Adam1115 said:


> Some are moving to 100% digital delivery, some are moving certain channels. But *MOST* cable companies still offer SIGNIFICANT content on analag. Also, *MOST* cable companies charge a LOT more for digital cable, cable cards, etc.
> 
> No way am I going to pay an extra $50/mo just to get the 'digital tier' to use my TiVo... Analog for the handful of cable channels I watch on occasion is fine. OTA-HD is all I need.


My mistake, I assumed that if I was decoding via CC than it had to be in an MPEG-2 transport stream. You are correct that occasionally with my cable provider I have to select the video quality which means that the TiVo analog tuner is tuning and encoding the stream.


----------



## sbiller

sbiller said:


> My mistake, I assumed that if I was decoding via CC than it had to be in an MPEG-2 transport stream. You are correct that occasionally with my cable provider I have to select the video quality which means that the TiVo analog tuner is tuning and encoding the stream.


Could they eliminate the OTA High Def tuner and still maintain the ability to tune and encode cable provided SD analog channels?


----------



## HDTiVo

Arcady said:


> This is on Time Warner Cable in Dallas, not some rinky-dink cable company.


My cable company was recently renamed: *Non-Rinky-Dink Spite the CableCARD User with Analog When Everyone Else Gets Digital Cable*


----------



## mike_camden

moyekj said:


> If you currently have a cable company set top box (or know someone who has one) you can check the box diagnostics while tuned to channels in the analog lineup to see if they are digital or not. For example, if diagnostics report modulation scheme as QAM then you know they are digital. This is how I was originally building up my spreadsheet for my local headend (in my sig). For the Motorola DCTxxx or DCHxxx series you can find details here of getting to diagnostics:
> http://replayguide.sourceforge.net/dct6412/DCT6412_Passport.html#Tips_and_Tricks
> 
> Obviously with the S3 it's a lot easier to tell from the diagnostics menu if you are tuned to digital or analog stations (among other methods).


Thanks for the tip. I'm using a Motorola DCT-6412; if it's showing QAM 256 for the channel in the inband status, that means the channel is digital? If that's correct. then I guess CCast must be doing all digital simulcast here.


----------



## bkdtv

mike_camden said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'm using a Motorola DCT-6412; if it's showing QAM 256 for the channel in the inband status, that means the channel is digital? If that's correct. then I guess CCast must be doing all digital simulcast here.


For the most part, if you have Comcast, you have digital simulcast.



Adam1115 said:


> Some are moving to 100% digital delivery, some are moving certain channels. But MOST cable companies still offer SIGNIFICANT content on analag. Also, MOST cable companies charge a LOT more for digital cable, cable cards, etc.


Just because cable companies offer analog does not mean they don't also offer those channels in digital. In almost every market, save for Chicago, Comcast offers "extended basic" cable service in analog. However, they also offer that same service in digital for the same price (or $1 more, depending on market). If you use an analog tuner, you get the analog versions; if use a STB, you get the digital versions.

All cable companies are moving to digital because that is the only way they can compete with satellite.


----------



## moyekj

mike_camden said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'm using a Motorola DCT-6412; if it's showing QAM 256 for the channel in the inband status, that means the channel is digital? If that's correct. then I guess CCast must be doing all digital simulcast here.


 Yes, if it says QAM 256 (or QAM anything) then it's digital. Just note that there are 2 pages of info - one for each tuner. If the information doesn't include the channel number you can change the channel on one tuner and go back to same diagnostics page and see which frequency changed to determine which tuner corresponds to which page.


----------



## GoHokies!

sbiller said:


> Could they eliminate the OTA High Def tuner and still maintain the ability to tune and encode cable provided SD analog channels?


OTA HD = Digital, so yes.

But it would be stupid.


----------



## bkdtv

Arcady said:


> Many of the channels in my "digital" tier (over 70 channels in fact) are actually analog. This is on Time Warner Cable in Dallas, not some rinky-dink cable company.


Time Warner already does digital simulcast in almost every part of the Dallas / FW area. If you don't get digital simulcast on your Series3, that is probably a headend configuration problem.

TWC has announced plans to have digital simulcast up in ~100% of its markets (with some SDV in about 75%) by January 2008. That SDV does pose a problem for the Series3, but Verizon FiOS should be available in much of N. Texas by end 2007.


----------



## wmcbrine

Neenahboy said:


> So what are the odds on them screwing us with no HDMI on the Lite as a model differentiation tactic?


Zero. The content cartels want _everything_ to be HDMI. They'd like to see _component_ phased out.


----------



## Adam1115

bkdtv said:


> For the most part, if you have Comcast, you have digital simulcast.
> 
> Just because cable companies offer analog does not mean they don't also offer those channels in digital. In almost every market, save for Chicago, Comcast offers "extended basic" cable service in analog. However, they also offer that same service in digital for the same price (or $1 more, depending on market). If you use an analog tuner, you get the analog versions; if use a STB, you get the digital versions.
> 
> All cable companies are moving to digital because that is the only way they can compete with satellite.


You're (sort of) right that it appears they have dropped the price of digital. Used to be much more expensive than analog. Looks like here, digital cable is $49.99 a month, "Standard Cable" is $48.99. BUT, you can't get digital cable for $49.99. You need either a STB, that they will happily RENT to you for an ADDITIONAL fee ($9.95/mo) or a CableCARD, which costs a few bucks a month plus an installation fee.

So really to be fair, digital cable is $3-$10.95 a month more than analog PER OUTLET (so two TV's? Three?).

But then there's the fact that I have "Basic Cable", which means I get about 25-30 channels, but they won't sell me a cablecard or STB unless I up it to digital cable, which is $35/mo more! They won't even LET me get HBO unless I pay the additional $35/mo. I get all the channels I need, why would I pay so much to see pixilation instead of static on a handful of channels I hardly watch?


----------



## Arcady

bkdtv said:


> Time Warner already does digital simulcast in almost every part of the Dallas / FW area.


Not here. Every channel below 100 is analog, and any channel with the same content in the "digital tier" (above 100) is also analog, even on their STB and DVR boxes. I don't even have to look at info to see which are analog; the static in the picture is easy enough to see. This means that almost all of the most-watched cable channels (History, Sci Fi, USA, etc.) are analog, and stupid junk like shopping channels and spanish stuff are digital.


----------



## jmpage2

It seems to me that an awful big assumption is being made that this new unit will not have an analog tuner.


----------



## Justin Thyme

jmpage2 said:


> It seems to me that an awful big assumption is being made that this new unit will not have an analog tuner.


 :up: +1


----------



## aaronwt

I thought someone earlier mentioned the savings would come from not having an MPEG encoder, which is needed for analog recording. So if they don't have an MPEG encoder there would be no point in having an analog tuner.


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> I thought someone earlier mentioned the savings would come from not having an MPEG encoder, which is needed for analog recording. So if they don't have an MPEG encoder there would be no point in having an analog tuner.


I think the general consensus is that the unit would most likely need an analog tuner w/ associated MPEG encoder to support the current analog channels being delivered by many service providers.

I haven't seen an estimate as to the cost of analog tuning and MPEG encoding. It might be interesting to see a price breakdown of the piece parts that make up an S3.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jmpage2 said:


> It seems to me that an awful big assumption is being made that this new unit will not have an analog tuner.


I think better cost savings would come from having a standard box and motherboard design that would support either S2 or S3 feature set depending on the chipset put on the motherboard. use the same analog encoder/decoder and tuner setup for both and you buy in bulk. Then add on the digital tuner and OTA, inputs/outputs associated with that. Viola a low cost S3 that comes down the same factory line as a S2 DT, just specced out differently.

Getting it on the same factory line is what brings the cost way down versus the current S3 and its high end and very different factory line requirements.


----------



## classicsat

sbiller said:


> Could they eliminate the OTA High Def tuner and still maintain the ability to tune and encode cable provided SD analog channels?


Technically yes, but then they'd have an S2 DT, since the digital OTA tuner is the same chunk of silicon used to tune digital cable, which means you lose that if you eliminate digital OTA to save costs.


----------



## Adam1115

Wouldn't a lot of savings be streamlining the manufacturing from a process standpoint? Using more 'common' components to replace components that are expensive / hard to find? Maybe reworking the mainboard to do the same thing a little bit differently to cut manufacturing costs? A cheaper remote and chassis? Kind of like the difference between a 240 and 540 series 2?

I mean, I seriously doubt their going to start from the top and redesign the whole thing so they can lop off some useful features... The software costs to do this would make it easy for this to not make sense.


----------



## MichaelK

jrm01 said:


> A major CE retailer was just notified that the new Tivo-lite will be in the store the week of August 5-12. It is currently named "Fusion", but will likely just be called Tivo HD. The specs on it are:
> 
> price: $299
> source: Digital cable, digital antenna
> NO THX certification
> Dual tuner
> Storage: 20 hrs HD, 180 hrs. SD
> No front panel display
> Standard remote
> 
> Support for SP, WL, KidZone, Online scheduling, Digital music player, Digital photo viewer, Home Movie sharing, Amazon Unbox, Univ Swivel Search
> 
> Both the S3 and Lite will have TTG and MRV PRIOR TO THE END OF 2007.
> 
> Based on this it seems the cost savings are:
> 
> 1/2 the storage
> No THX
> Digital-only tuners
> No front panel display
> Standard remote (I assume this means the peanut)


I beleive cablecard approval means it MUST support analog cable.


----------



## MichaelK

Neenahboy said:


> So what are the odds on them screwing us with no HDMI on the Lite as a model differentiation tactic?


zero

cable HD could be worthless at sme point without HDMI.

(less sure of this but cablecard approval may also require either hdmi or firewire...)


----------



## MichaelK

MichaelK said:


> I beleive cablecard approval means it MUST support analog cable.


not an expert but the cablecard testing procedure can be found here:
http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/UNI-DIR-ATP-I05-040629.pdf

on page 158 it says (CORE Interoperability Tests) :



> "6. Verify the ability of CableCARD, host combination to tune clear analog channels.
> Reference CA system for channel map information and tune to an analog service, verify
> audio and video on UDRD."


sure sounds like they expect cablecard devices to tune analog channels.

(again not an expert so feel free to explain how I'm wrong)


----------



## MickeS

MichaelK said:


> sure sounds like they expect cablecard devices to tune analog channels.


Yes.


----------



## MichaelK

So since it has to do analog cable the only thing they MIGHT have left out is OTA NTSC tuning. Since I dont think there are yet ATSC tuner chips that dont include the NTSC tuner, I suspect it will have that too.

They might leave it out as a differentiator but I dont know why they would if they already have the code for the S3.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

MichaelK said:


> sure sounds like they expect cablecard devices to tune analog channels.
> 
> (again not an expert so feel free to explain how I'm wrong)


a note just for clarity - the cable card actually just takes the digital stream off the cable and decrypts it, if needed. then a digital tuner would find the correct part of the digital stream to tune in and provide to the DVR for processing.
I do not think the analog comes through the cable card but even if it does there is an analog tuner that will find the correct frequency and tune that in to provide to the DVR for processing.

so cable cards on their own do not gain access to analog or for that matter digital channels. it is a tuner inside the device that will get the specific channel.

but the statement is correct - if you are cable card certified, the device needs to have an analog tuner


----------



## Gene S

My question is, will this "Lite" version include the hardware to handle switched video SDV? If not, I'll be waiting till S4.


----------



## sbiller

Gene S said:


> My question is, will this "Lite" version include the hardware to handle switched video SDV? If not, I'll be waiting till S4.


Recommend that you review this thread
SDV Sightings

I think they are working on methods to be compatible with SDV but its a crapshoot when and if it will be supported.


----------



## MickeS

Gene S said:


> My question is, will this "Lite" version include the hardware to handle switched video SDV? If not, I'll be waiting till S4.


It would be pretty pathetic if it didn't at least have some sort of upgrade-path in place.

But this IS TiVo (the company) we're talking about so I don't rule anything out.


----------



## SullyND

MickeS said:


> But this IS [a cablelabs issue] we're talking about so [there isn't a standard in place that TiVo could adopt if they wanted to]


FYP.


----------



## bicker

Adam1115 said:


> Wouldn't a lot of savings be streamlining the manufacturing from a process standpoint?


Savings isn't the whole issue, though. They not only need to cut costs, but they also need to provide an appropriate value/price differentiation between the current S3 and S3 Lite.


----------



## classicsat

MichaelK said:


> So since it has to do analog cable the only thing they MIGHT have left out is OTA NTSC tuning. Since I dont think there are yet ATSC tuner chips that dont include the NTSC tuner, I suspect it will have that too.
> 
> They might leave it out as a differentiator but I dont know why they would if they already have the code for the S3.


OTA NTSC tuning is just software (the hardware being there for analog cable). There is no cost savings eliminating that. They have to "cut" either hardware or features that cost licensing fees.


----------



## hybucket

Aside from speculation, has there been any legit reports of what the new TiVO Lite will be like or when it will be available?


----------



## Globular

Maybe the components are roughly the same as the Series 3; they're just cheaper now?

Minus the LCD, glo remote , and EAF (Early Adopter Fee).

-Matt


----------



## bkdtv

Globular said:


> Maybe the components are roughly the same as the Series 3; they're just cheaper now?
> 
> Minus the LCD, glo remote , and EAF (Early Adopter Fee).
> 
> -Matt


Tivo Series3 Specifications (TCD648250B)
 Broadcom BCM7038 DVR CPU with MPEG-2 decoder
 Broadcom BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder
 128Mb DDR SDRAM (plus SDRAM for BCM7042s)
 250Gb SATA HD
 2x Broadcom BCM7042 MPEG-2 encoders
 2x Samsung S5H1409-based tuners (analog/QAM/8VSB)
 relatively large, 4-layer PCB (?) with PCI slots
 THX certification
 Front panel OLED display
 Glossy, backlit learning remote
 Made in Mexico
 $799 MSRP

Official TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160)
 Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
 256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)
 160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS SATA hard drive
 2x ATI Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators (for tuners)
 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs
 1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC w/ dedicated 32MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x NANYA NT5DS8M16FS-5T)
 CableCard interface
 [email protected] encoders

 Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller
 Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA
 10/100Mbps Ethernet
 Standard Tivo remote
 $299 MSRP

TivoHD Advantages
 MSRP is $500 less ($299 vs $799) thanks to newer, more integrated components
 TivoHD has ~7% faster CPU (450 MIPS vs 420 MIPS)
 TivoHD has twice the usable system memory (256MB vs 128MB)
 Supports MCARDs out of the box.
 Consumes less power.

TivoHD Disadvantages
 TTG and MRV throughput is less than Tivo Series3 (as of 9.2 software).
 The "plug and play" eSATA drive expansion only works with "Tivo Verified" eSATA drives, while the Tivo Series3 works with any eSATA drive.
 Smaller hard drive (160GB vs 250GB).
 No THX certification.
 No piano black enclosure with OLED display.
 No slick, learning remote (sold separately for $50).
 No bundled HDMI cable.
 Drivers for new components potentially less mature / optimized.
 Ships with older 8.1.x branch of Tivo software, which doesn't have all the performance improvements of the 8.3.x branch on the Tivo Series3.
 Potentially slower disk I/O, which may hurt responsiveness.
The Broadcom BCM7401 in the TivoHD has a single 1.5Gbps SATA channel that is "split" for the internal SATA and eSATA connections using the Silicon Image SiI5723. In contrast, the BCM7038 in the Series3 had a dual-channel SATA controller, so no "splitting" was required. This may negatively impact disk I/O when both internal and eSATA drives are used, and Tivo responsiveness is highly dependent on disk I/O. The SiI5723 does support several RAID modes that could potentially improve random I/O.
Google "TCD652160" and you might get a few hits, although you'll have to look at the cached results since Tivo has had most of the offending pages removed. Even Amazon has pictures of the TCD652160 on their site...

To clarify, I am *not* under NDA with Tivo.


----------



## wmcbrine

bkdtv said:


> To clarify, I am under under NDA with Tivo.


You might want to re-clarify that...


----------



## bkdtv

wmcbrine said:


> You might want to re-clarify that...


Bad typo.


----------



## Globular

bkdtv said:


> Google "TCD652160" and you might get a few hits, although you'll have to look at the cached results since Tivo has had most of the offending pages removed. Even Amazon has pictures of the TCD652160 on their site...


Wow. This thing must be close if it's showing up on shopping sites already! Bring it on TiVo. This is exactly what I was waiting for!


----------



## MickeS

"Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., a leader in advanced semiconductor technology, today announced an improved digital TV receiver chip, the S5H1411, that boasts a 30 percent higher reception success rate than the companys previous generation digital TV receiver chip released in 2005, the S5H1409."

If the above components list is true, I wonder if they'll be putting this new chip in the S3 too?


----------



## Adam1115

Not bad looking...










Features:

* Controls cable TV with record, pause, rewind and fast-forward in HD
* Records two HD channels at once, while watching another recorded show
* Records up to 20 hours of high definition programming (or 180 hours of standard definition)
* Video output modes include: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i
* Sources supported: Digital cable, Analog cable, Digital antenna (ATSC), Analog antenna and broadband content


----------



## MickeS

bkdtv said:


> Google "TCD652160" and you might get a few hits, although you'll have to look at the cached results since Tivo has had most of the offending pages removed. Even Amazon has pictures of the TCD652160 on their site...


"Features:

* Controls cable TV with record, pause, rewind and fast-forward in HD
* Records two HD channels at once, while watching another recorded show
* Records up to 20 hours of high definition programming (or 180 hours of standard definition)
* Video output modes include: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i
* Sources supported: Digital cable, Analog cable, Digital antenna (ATSC), Analog antenna and broadband content"

And the pictures are definitely of the same unit that was shown earlier in the thread. So I guess this thing will be out pretty soon then... nice... might have to get one. 

I always found it puzzling that they spent time and money on the front display on the Series 3. I would assume most "high end" setups are similar to mine, in that the electronics are stashed away somewhere out of sight anyway.


----------



## sbiller

Found it via cached Yahoo search at Abe's of Maine...for $304.99.

*Tivo TCD652160 TiVo HD High Definition Digital Video Recorder For Cable Use...*

Also, from a cached google site found a nice image and these specs:

Features for TiVo TCD652160 HD Digital Video Recorder:

* Controls cable TV with record, pause, rewind and fast-forward in HD
* Records two HD channels at once, while watching another recorded show
* Records up to 20 hours of high definition programming (or 180 hours of standard definition)
* Video output modes include: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i
* Sources supported: Digital cable, Analog cable, Digital antenna (ATSC), Analog antenna and broadband content

TIVO TCD653080 TIVO(R) HIGH-DEFINITION COMBINES THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE TIVO(R) SERVICE WITH THE PURITY OF HIGH-DEFINITION A/V; UNIVERSAL CABLE BOX DESIGNED TO WORK WITH ANY CABLE PROVIDER; OFFERS NETWORK CONNECTIVITY OTHER ELECTRONICS


----------



## dvr4me

I just bought a series 2 that will be delivered in 2 days (converting from Directv to cable and don't want to use the DVR from the cable company).

I might just have to take advantage of the 30 day money back guarantee offer and wait for the S3 Lite to arrive.


----------



## hybucket

sbiller said:


> Found it via cached Yahoo search at Abe's of Maine...for $304.99.
> 
> *Tivo TCD652160 TiVo HD High Definition Digital Video Recorder For Cable Use...*
> 
> Also, from a cached google site found a nice image and these specs:
> 
> Features for TiVo TCD652160 HD Digital Video Recorder:
> 
> * Controls cable TV with record, pause, rewind and fast-forward in HD
> * Records two HD channels at once, while watching another recorded show
> * Records up to 20 hours of high definition programming (or 180 hours of standard definition)
> * Video output modes include: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i
> * Sources supported: Digital cable, Analog cable, Digital antenna (ATSC), Analog antenna and broadband content
> 
> TIVO TCD653080 TIVO(R) HIGH-DEFINITION COMBINES THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE TIVO(R) SERVICE WITH THE PURITY OF HIGH-DEFINITION A/V; UNIVERSAL CABLE BOX DESIGNED TO WORK WITH ANY CABLE PROVIDER; OFFERS NETWORK CONNECTIVITY OTHER ELECTRONICS


Am I correct to assume that this new unit will require two cable cards?


----------



## sbiller

hybucket said:


> Am I correct to assume that this new unit will require two cable cards?


Same as the S3, two single channel CC's or one multi-channel CC.


----------



## dvr4me

sbiller said:


> Same as the S3, two single channel CC's or one multi-channel CC.


Hmm... but will it require the cards to use both tuners for ATSC? Doesn't the Series 3 heavy/classic/pro require cards to use both tuners? I'm not all that knowledgeable about the S3 but I was under the impression that you needed cablecards in order to use both tuners and if you only had 1 card only 1 tuner would function (OTA specifically).

Am I wrong?


----------



## MickeS

dvr4me said:


> Hmm... but will it require the cards to use both tuners for ATSC? Doesn't the Series 3 heavy/classic/pro require cards to use both tuners? I'm not all that knowledgeable about the S3 but I was under the impression that you needed cablecards in order to use both tuners and if you only had 1 card only 1 tuner would function (OTA specifically).
> 
> Am I wrong?


I think this is how it is:

0 cards = 2 tuners
1 card = 1 tuner
2 cards = 2 tuners

Nothing so far has indicated anything about the "lite" version working differently or the same.


----------



## jmpage2

Ahh, now where are the people crying "photoshopped!!" which seems to happen every time new product information gets leaked?

This looks really good. Now we need confirmation that it will support expansion through the eSata port, although an internal hard drive swapout is also probably possible.

If we are getting this info now it should be on shelves in August or September, then big ramp up promotional push during the holidays. I could easily see this bundled with one year Tivo subscription for the big holiday push. 

Tivo could really turn things around with this one, especially if they bundle in service at the $299 price point.


----------



## snowbunny

I agree with the low price point being a positive; however, the lack of the Series 2 functionality (MRV, TTG, etc) and being crippled by SDV will either grow the customer base enough that TiVo and their customers can effect change; or simply piss off people who happen to have their HD channels on SDV.


----------



## jmpage2

What makes you think that this unit or the original S3 won't be able to do TTG or MRV by the end of the year?

Those are the biggest differentiators between Tivo and the "me too" cable/satellite PVRs and I'm sure Tivo is chomping at the bit to implement them.


----------



## phoenixZed

Kind of hard to tell from that picture, but it looks like it has the an OLED display like the S3. I guess that wasn't a cost cutting requirement...


----------



## drew00001

dvr4me said:


> I just bought a series 2 that will be delivered in 2 days (converting from Directv to cable and don't want to use the DVR from the cable company).
> 
> I might just have to take advantage of the 30 day money back guarantee offer and wait for the S3 Lite to arrive.


I would totally recomend returning the S2. Analog will not be around much longer and you probably do not want to rent a cable box to use the S2.


----------



## Justin Thyme

sbiller said:


> Same as the S3, two single channel CC's or one multi-channel CC.


There is no confirmation that Multi _"Stream"_ Cards ("MCards") work with the S3, but reportedly the S3-lite has been certified by cablelabs for use with MCards. [Note- although no one calls them multi channel cards, that is pretty much what they are, although I suppose cablecard supports some streams that are not channels (like maybe a Docsis stream?), so calling them multichannel cards is not technically accurate.]



dvr4me said:


> Hmm... but will it require the cards to use both tuners for ATSC?


Cablecards are not required for tuning Over the Air (OTA ATSC) stations.


----------



## Justin Thyme

I know you guys are probably a trifle busy, but it sure would be nice if you folks made some of these units available via Tivo Rewards for us loyalists who have referral points to spend.

Thanks,

=JT=


----------



## lombard

Justin Thyme said:


> There is no confirmation that Multi _"Stream"_ Cards ("MCards") work with the S3, but reportedly the S3-lite has been certified by cablelabs for use with MCards.


I've been seeing rumblings about this, but I could have sworn that before the S3 got released TiVo said MCards would work. And I KNOW that the CableCard #1 slot on my S3 has wording along the lines of "First CableCard (Single or Multi stream)"

But just to keep this on topic, IF they enable MRV and IF they get MCards working and IF my CableCo starts handing out MCards (probably going to hog them for all their own cable boxes), I'll be picking one of these up for my bedroom.


----------



## HDTiVo

Justin Thyme said:


> There is no confirmation that Multi _"Stream"_ Cards ("MCards") work with the S3, but reportedly the S3-lite has been certified by cablelabs for use with MCards. [Note- although no one calls them multi channel cards, that is pretty much what they are, although I suppose cablecard supports some streams that are not channels (like maybe a Docsis stream?), so calling them multichannel cards is not technically accurate.]
> 
> Cablecards are not required for tuning Over the Air (OTA ATSC) stations.


OK, we need to see the verification on the S3-Lite model considering the rumors...

Just checked the 7/10/07 sheet, and its not there.


----------



## sandenurse

Globular said:


> Wow. This thing must be close if it's showing up on shopping sites already! Bring it on TiVo. This is exactly what I was waiting for!


I predict*...August 24th*.

30 Days AFTER the current Transfer Lifetime offer expires.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

TCD653080

http://www.buy.com/prod/tivo-hd/q/loc/111/204822004.html

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...uct&page=6+TCD653080&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us

TIVO TCD653080 TIVO(R) HIGH-DEFINITION 
TIVO TCD653080 TIVO(R) HIGH-DEFINITION COMBINES THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE TIVO(R) SERVICE WITH THE PURITY OF HIGH-DEFINITION A/V UNIVERSAL CABLE BOX DESIGNED TO WORK WITH ANY CABLE PROVIDER OFFERS NETWORK CONNECTIVITY Manufacturer?s Part No.: TCD653080 USA Orders Only (no international orders, please). Ships in 1-3 business days. Our price is too low to show. Add to your cart for an instant lower price quote. $299.99 $286.85


----------



## jmpage2

Looks like a placeholder which means retailers are either in the process of placing their orders or have already done so.


----------



## MediaLivingRoom

Now you may have a choice of low cost Series 3 TiVo

TCD653080

or

TCD652160


----------



## SullyND

lombard said:


> I've been seeing rumblings about this, but I could have sworn that before the S3 got released TiVo said MCards would work.


The S3 has the hardware, but has not (yet, we think) been certified. More from Pony


----------



## jmpage2

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Now you may have a choice of low cost Series 3 TiVo
> 
> TCD653080
> 
> or
> 
> TCD652160


Well, until we see the specs we don't know if they aren't in fact the same unit. Sometimes model numbers change right before units go to retail.


----------



## HDTiVo

sandenurse said:


> I predict*...August 24th*.
> 
> 30 Days AFTER the current Transfer Lifetime offer expires.


Irrelevent, *no backsies*. 

I am waiting for the first "I got screwed because I took the LT transfer 64 hours ago" post.


----------



## jrm01

sandenurse said:


> I predict*...August 24th*.
> 
> 30 Days AFTER the current Transfer Lifetime offer expires.


As I mentioned in my earlier post, a major CE retailer here was notified by Tivo that it will be in the store sometime between August 5 and 12.


----------



## MickeS

Now I kinda wish I hadn't bought my Series 3 last month... :/

This one plus $300 worth of extra storage would have been a better deal.


----------



## nemoby

The pricing is compelling for new buyers but I don't get the feeling that I got burned buying my S3 a month ago. I paid $600 and a bit of change on Amazon and will receive a $200 rebate. Glad to pay the extra $100 and don't have to wait until some future date for it to ship.


----------



## HDTiVo

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by HDTiVo
> So now I've set myself up for looking stupid.





bicker said:


> Funny -- I was thinking the same thing!


Maybe next time.


----------



## smark

I'll pick one up if the upgrade to the HD is fairly easy (prefer eSATA).


----------



## LeeG

If it werent for the fear of SDV, I'd pick one up the day it comes out. Add TTG and its perfect.


L


----------



## dvr4me

LeeG said:


> If it werent for the fear of SDV, I'd pick one up the day it comes out. Add TTG and its perfect.
> 
> L


I'm in the market for a standalone tivo (dropping Directv and I don't want to live without Tivo) and had just purchased an S2DT (should be here Thursday). Since reading the information about the S3 Lite I'm seriously considering returning the unit under the 30 day guarantee and getting the S3 Lite when it comes out.

Sure it might not work with SDV, but then again, the S2DT doesn't work with it. The S2DT also won't do HD and doesn't have an OTA antenna if I should drop cable. Since I'm buying a tivo, I'd rather invest $200 more up front and have a fall back (with OTA) if my cable company decides to change the distribution. The full S3 is just too expensive for my budget when you factor in the service.


----------



## ingenue007

I don't even use the OLED display on mine and use ext HD for expanded storage making 160 gb a moot point. Ugh...


----------



## jmpage2

dvr4me said:


> I'm in the market for a standalone tivo (dropping Directv and I don't want to live without Tivo) and had just purchased an S2DT (should be here Thursday). Since reading the information about the S3 Lite I'm seriously considering returning the unit under the 30 day guarantee and getting the S3 Lite when it comes out.
> 
> Sure it might not work with SDV, but then again, the S2DT doesn't work with it. The S2DT also won't do HD and doesn't have an OTA antenna if I should drop cable. Since I'm buying a tivo, I'd rather invest $200 more up front and have a fall back (with OTA) if my cable company decides to change the distribution. The full S3 is just too expensive for my budget when you factor in the service.


Don't you know better than to bring up budgets and costs when posting on the Tivo forums?


----------



## 20TIL6

dvr4me said:


> I'm in the market for a standalone tivo (dropping Directv and I don't want to live without Tivo) and had just purchased an S2DT (should be here Thursday). Since reading the information about the S3 Lite I'm seriously considering returning the unit under the 30 day guarantee and getting the S3 Lite when it comes out.
> 
> Sure it might not work with SDV, but then again, the S2DT doesn't work with it. The S2DT also won't do HD and doesn't have an OTA antenna if I should drop cable. Since I'm buying a tivo, I'd rather invest $200 more up front and have a fall back (with OTA) if my cable company decides to change the distribution. The full S3 is just too expensive for my budget when you factor in the service.


 If I were in your shoes, I'd do the same thing. Return the S2, and get the S3 lite.


----------



## dvr4me

jmpage2 said:


> Don't you know better than to bring up budgets and costs when posting on the Tivo forums?


Budget is my wife's name. I get brownie points for mentioning her


----------



## moyekj

This Lite unit seems like the kiss of death for the current S3 hardware (less than a year after release). Based on bits and pieces I have read here and there I don't see any significant downside to this Lite unit compared to current S3 hardware. Hope that doesn't mean no more emphasis on software for the S3. Just hope the S3 and this S3 Lite share the same software so that they both get attention going forwards...


----------



## Adam1115

The unit is a steal for just a standalone HD OTA TiVo, if nothing else!!

I wish they'd enable MRV for OTA...


----------



## ZeoTiVo

moyekj said:


> This Lite unit seems like the kiss of death for the current S3 hardware (less than a year after release). Based on bits and pieces I have read here and there I don't see any significant downside to this Lite unit compared to current S3 hardware. Hope that doesn't mean no more emphasis on software for the S3. Just hope the S3 and this S3 Lite share the same software so that they both get attention going forwards...


well the S3 price has come down and since it is the quality unit then it still will have some sales legs in it. But if TiVo sells lots of this new one then they will just have to live with that 

in any case this new S3 will most likely use the same codee base as the current S3 and both will be supported for some time to come. The idea of ending updates for the current S3 is just not substantiated by anything we have seen to date in other model releases


----------



## jfh3

Justin Thyme said:


> I know you guys are probably a trifle busy, but it sure would be nice if you folks made some of these units available via Tivo Rewards for us loyalists who have referral points to spend.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> =JT=


+1 :up:


----------



## jfh3

bkdtv said:


> Tivo Series3 Specifications (TCD648250B)
> - BCM7038 DVR CPU with MPEG-2 decoder
> - BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder
> - 2x BCM7042 MPEG-2 encoders
> - 2x Samsung S5H1409-based tuners (analog/QAM/8VSB)
> 
> Unconfirmed Series3 "Lite" Specifications (TCD652160)
> - BCM740x DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
> - 1x dual MPEG-2 encoder (BCM7041 or possibly an encoder from LSI)
> - 2x Samsung S5H1411-based tuners (analog/QAM/8VSB)


Since you are quite knowledgable regarding the various chipsets, care to do a comparasion between the S3 and S3lite for us, in terms of potential capabilities, speed, etc.?


----------



## MickeS

moyekj said:


> This Lite unit seems like the kiss of death for the current S3 hardware (less than a year after release). Based on bits and pieces I have read here and there I don't see any significant downside to this Lite unit compared to current S3 hardware. Hope that doesn't mean no more emphasis on software for the S3. Just hope the S3 and this S3 Lite share the same software so that they both get attention going forwards...


I don't worry about that at all. They're still very similar and will no doubt use the same software. The main hardware differences based on the previous post seems to be a new tuner chip in the Lite, and an integrated MPEG4/2 decoder chip rather than two separate chips.


----------



## Justin Thyme

SullyND said:


> The S3 has the hardware, but has not (yet, we think) been certified. More from Pony


Bob's note was prior to CableLabs' creation of a certification process for MCards in Nov/Dec 2006.

DT_DC noticed the appearance of the S3 in a certification wave in March. The appearance on the list was odd because it was already Cablecard certified and all subsequent models can be self certified. What would explain it is if it were an MCard certification because they would not have been able to self certify that, and so that was DT's guess.

The S3 lite would then be a self certification. That would explain why a search on those model numbers do not turn up on the cablelabs site, but the S3's does.

Besides circumstantial information likes this, it just stands to reason that they would not release the S3 lite to manufacturing without the MCard certification, so DT's guess was probably correct.

Although it is likely- we just don't have any official confirmation of this status- not that it matters because there may be some ramping up before most cableco servers support the MCards.


----------



## audio

I have been waiting for this box since I heard about it.

Before I buy, I have a question about the S3:

I know that TTG and MRV do not work with the S3 box (keeping fingers crossed). For those of you that do have an S3, are you able to use Amazon Unbox? 

If so, how is the picture? With my S2DT the picture is almost DVD quality. I imagine, because it's a purely digital box that the S3 would have a better picture.


----------



## mattack

I haven't read this whole thread -- but in the first couple of pages, people talk about removal of analog tuners.

I thought that CableCard certification REQUIRED the ability to tune analog channels.
Is that not actually true?


----------



## MickeS

audio said:


> I know that TTG and MRV do not work with the S3 box (keeping fingers crossed). For those of you that do have an S3, are you able to use Amazon Unbox?
> 
> If so, how is the picture? With my S2DT the picture is almost DVD quality. I imagine, because it's a purely digital box that the S3 would have a better picture.


Yes, Unbox works on Series 3.
I have not compared to the Series 2, but it looks about between "Best" TiVo recording quality and DVD.


----------



## Redux

audio said:


> For those of you that do have an S3, are you able to use Amazon Unbox?
> 
> If so, how is the picture? With my S2DT the picture is almost DVD quality. I imagine, because it's a purely digital box that the S3 would have a better picture.


Picture varies according to source. OK. Casual viewers won't generally see a huge amout of in-your-face defieciencies compared to DVDs, though they are there.

Shouldn't be any huge difference between the s2 & s3 in playback.


----------



## HDTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> Like I said when the S3 was introduced, its not going to bother me if they grab some low hanging fanboys for $299 for a short while. But they need to come down $50, maybe $70 for XMAS to really hit it big. So I hope they can afford that.


I am a little more positive about the pricing than I was previously ( http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/07/14/more-signs-of-lite/ ); $299 is a pretty good start. Id like to see them come down $20-50 by XMAS.

I think TiVo could have moderate success with this, restricted of course by the price/commitments of service.


----------



## herfmonster

jfh3 said:


> What is the right DVR/price for this year's market?


The right DVR for ME will be a S-3 or S-4 that includes at least a...

250G hard drive
HDMI output
Dual ATSC tuners...and...
A LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION OFFER...AND...
A DUAL LAYER BLU-RAY BURNER BUILT IN!!!

The price I will snap this device up at is $599.99

I think I still have about two years to wait for that device and price.

The renewal of the lifetime subscription offer or not isn't a deal breaker but would seal the deal. I would be willing to pay $399.99 for lifetime service.


----------



## Adam1115

herfmonster said:


> The right DVR for ME will be a S-3 or S-4 that includes at least a...
> 
> 250G hard drive
> HDMI output
> Dual ATSC tuners...and...
> A LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION OFFER...AND...
> A DUAL LAYER BLU-RAY BURNER BUILT IN!!!
> 
> The price I will snap this device up at is $599.99
> 
> I think I still have about two years to wait for that device and price.
> 
> The renewal of the lifetime subscription offer or not isn't a deal breaker but would seal the deal. I would be willing to pay $399.99 for lifetime service.


The right one for ME is one that

- Makes me coffee in the morning
- Brings me beer at night
- Makes popcorn
- Runs on air instead of electricity
- Has a built in 400" projector

For $99, I'd snap it up!


----------



## gastrof

Aside from the standard TiVo remote and no front panel display, is this really a "lite" version of the Series 3?

Seems to have all the other features.


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> This Lite unit seems like the kiss of death for the current S3 hardware (less than a year after release). Based on bits and pieces I have read here and there I don't see any significant downside to this Lite unit compared to current S3 hardware. Hope that doesn't mean no more emphasis on software for the S3. Just hope the S3 and this S3 Lite share the same software so that they both get attention going forwards...


I've become very used to the OLED panel now, I use it all the time to see what is being recorded. So much that I would probably not want an S3 without it unless the cost savings was major like $300 but my last S3 was only around $540 back in December.


----------



## Justin Thyme

gastrof said:


> Aside from the standard TiVo remote and no front panel display, is this really a "lite" version of the Series 3?
> 
> Seems to have all the other features.


Not lite on features. Lite on the wallet.


----------



## MickeS

gastrof said:


> Aside from the standard TiVo remote and no front panel display, is this really a "lite" version of the Series 3?
> 
> Seems to have all the other features.


It could just be the components, as pointed out earlier. Integrated chips for decoding rather than separate chips, and other stuff, as well as the smaller HD, missing display and different remote.

Even though a 540 model series 2 is newer than a 240 model, it is doing some things slower due to having integrated chips (as I understand it). Could be a similar situation here.

Not sure if that's worth warranting the "lite" tag though - that will not be the name (also mentioned earlier ).


----------



## tenthplanet

Unless the "lite" performs better than the original S-3 I really don't see the point of it. 
Tivo makes their money on the service not such much on the units. I have seen too many consumer electronic products go from quality to cheap. It happened to VCR's, DVD recorders seem to be going that route also. Unless a company is subsidizing the price of a unit cheaper usually means something changed. And finally if this is built in China it will never be in this house.


----------



## SullyND

Justin Thyme said:


> Not lite on features. Lite on the wallet.


Tastes great, less filling.

Assuming the S3 continues in it's current form, would seem it could use at least a boost in HD capacity.


----------



## jrm01

MickeS said:


> Not sure if that's worth warranting the "lite" tag though - that will not be the name (also mentioned earlier ).


It's development name was Fusion, but they seem to be leaning toward just calling it Tivo HD.


----------



## sbiller

SullyND said:


> Tastes great, less filling.
> 
> Assuming the S3 continues in it's current form, would seem it could use at least a boost in HD capacity.


One point on the current S3 is that it is a very good tuner/receiver/upscaler. Personally, my SD channels look a lot better on the S3 then they did via a Scientific Atlanta cable box. I'm not sure if that is related to the THX certification, but it has great picture quality. I'm very interested to see if the new S3-lite matches the PQ of the S3.


----------



## ncbagwell

I like the sound of this but I still need an answer on MRV and TTCB before I snap it up.


----------



## joewmaki

jmpage2 said:


> Will it have an eSATA port on it for external storage expansion? The version on Gizmodo gave some indication that this "S3 Lite" might have Cable Card 2.0 support also.


This could be the real 'lite' aspect, if it doesn't have the eSATA port. But then, the port use is not officially supported yet anyway.


----------



## bkdtv

jfh3 said:


> Since you are quite knowledgable regarding the various chipsets, care to do a comparasion between the S3 and S3lite for us, in terms of potential capabilities, speed, etc.?


There's not much difference in performance. Broadcom claims 450 DMIPs for its cheapest integrated solution as compared to 420 DMIPs for the older chip in the Series3. Both run at 300MHz and have the same 32Kb data and 32Kb instruction caches.

Basically, the new model does everything the current S3 does...it just takes advantage of newer, cheaper, and more highly integrated parts to simplify board design.


----------



## vstone

What's the BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder used for? Internet downloads?

How much is a DOCSIS 2 chip? (for two way comms)


----------



## MickeS

vstone said:


> What's the BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder used for? Internet downloads?


It's not used for anything currently, but otherwise, yeah I guess they intend to possible use it with downloaded material.


----------



## moyekj

vstone said:


> What's the BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder used for? Internet downloads?


 It will be presumably useful for the forthcoming MRV/TTG/TTCB capability as a means to play mpeg4 files on your S3 from your PC via Tivo Desktop.


----------



## Justin Thyme

bkdtv said:


> Basically, the new model does everything the current S3 does...it just takes advantage of newer, cheaper, and more highly integrated parts to simplify board design.


As Micke intimated, looks like a page out of the Tivo playbook with the of the 2.0 to 2.5 board transition. I sure do hope the decoder won't jitter on high bitrate Hidef like what I saw in the S3 tests when I had TivoBack temporarily running. I can grumble about there not being more memory headroom and power in the video post processing but jeez this is impressive from a less appreciated aspect of what good engineering staffs do.

This price point and being final this early in the season will have the channel full with time to spare for Christmas. Battles are won or lost by putting metal on target, where give or take a few months doesn't cut it. I think part of this story that's getting missed here is that the S3 lite delivery is a demonstration of world class schedule discipline. Anyway, I'd like to see some good close up photos of the board, and to hear which chips are certain/ which are still speculative.



SullyND said:


> Assuming the S3 continues in it's current form, would seem it could use at least a boost in HD capacity.


The ease of eSata upgrades will make such aftermarket upgrades a lot simpler and common for a broad market.

Really, some folks just want to time shift one or two shows rather than have a VOD like system with a thousand movies available on their Tivo.

Anyway- congratulations to the Tivo Hardware team.


----------



## pkscout

jmpage2 said:


> Ahh, now where are the people crying "photoshopped!!" which seems to happen every time new product information gets leaked?


Here I am. And I'm unwilling to believe this rumor based simply on a better picture. When I see an announcement I will believe it. Until then I won't. I don't see how TiVo can shave $500 off the price of the box just by dropping the OLED panel, the fancy remote, and the THX certification. Unless they've decided to lose money on every box and make it up in volume.


----------



## xnevergiveinx

i think this new tivo box is what will keep me with tivo. my series 2 is decent, but having s-video for the best picture quality and only being able to record at 480i is starting to turn out bad on my new hdtv
also, it's only a single tuner
i have been getting along with my series 2 box because i have been watching it on an old crt

i'm very happy for tivo's decision to make an affordable series 3 box, now i won't have to stray from tivo and be even more unhappy with a time warner dvr or something


----------



## MickeS

pkscout said:


> Here I am. And I'm unwilling to believe this rumor based simply on a better picture. When I see an announcement I will believe it. Until then I won't. I don't see how TiVo can shave $500 off the price of the box just by dropping the OLED panel, the fancy remote, and the THX certification. Unless they've decided to lose money on every box and make it up in volume.


Maybe your cats helped them out with that too!


----------



## wolflord11

So does this mean when the Tivo Series 3 Lite comes out, sales will increase alot, as the Price of the Series 3 has been a major issue to alot of folks...I for one may look at it, after working out all the costs of changing to cable and that...

BUT: the sales of the Original Series 3 will drop alot. Why pay double the price for something that does the same job? Sure you do not have the fancy Front Panel, the better remote and all that, but then again, those parts could always be Sold by Tivo as upgrades to the unit 

The introduction of the Series 3 Lite could be the death of the Original Series 3. Looking at it this way, the Series 3 has had the shortest lifespan of any Tivo unit.


----------



## SugarBowl

wolflord11 said:


> So does this mean when the Tivo Series 3 Lite comes out, sales will increase alot, as the Price of the Series 3 has been a major issue to alot of folks...I for one may look at it, after working out all the costs of changing to cable and that...
> 
> BUT: the sales of the Original Series 3 will drop alot. Why pay double the price for something that does the same job? Sure you do not have the fancy Front Panel, the better remote and all that, but then again, those parts could always be Sold by Tivo as upgrades to the unit
> 
> The introduction of the Series 3 Lite could be the death of the Original Series 3. Looking at it this way, the Series 3 has had the shortest lifespan of any Tivo unit.


Seems like the series 3 was just an IPO of sorts, to raise money from the diehards, and gain another year of development on the real product.


----------



## jgerry

As long as it takes CableCards and isn't a crappy Motorola DVR, I'm in. SATA port enabled for more storage would be a nice bonus too.


----------



## davecramer74

Looks like the earlier posts are correct. Just a slimmed down model wtih cheaper m/b and power supply and smaller hard drive. No SDV or VOD support. Ill be waiting longer i guess, sucks!.


----------



## classicsat

sbiller said:


> Features for TiVo TCD652160 HD Digital Video Recorder:
> 
> TIVO TCD653080


Unless TiVo changed their product numbering scheme;

I wonder what the difference is between the 652 and 653 units are (besides HDD size)?

Does the second digit being 5 mean anything? Usually Tivo branded units have a 4 there. I interpret that may be another CE partner selling them.

The 080 part means, at least in traditional TiVo product numbering, and 80 GB HDD. Could that be a digital SD only Series 3?


----------



## Revolutionary

pkscout said:


> Here I am. And I'm unwilling to believe this rumor based simply on a better picture. When I see an announcement I will believe it. Until then I won't. I don't see how TiVo can shave $500 off the price of the box just by dropping the OLED panel, the fancy remote, and the THX certification. Unless they've decided to lose money on every box and make it up in volume.


You've got it backward. The Series3 was the bleeding edge moneymaker, the proceeds from which bankrolled development of the S3-Lite. The S3 was *over* priced. They'll shave $100 off production, $300 off the sticker, and still end up with a profitable commodity box that we think is a steal because we've been innoculated by the overpriced Series3.


----------



## Hogues92

SullyND said:


> The S3 has the hardware, but has not (yet, we think) been certified.


I have one mcard in the correct slot on my Tivo (Comcast only had one card at the time and it took me 3 visits to get that). As of know it is only working with one tuner. Unless I'm doing something wrong, it appears that this feature has not been enabled yet. I'm hoping for it soon because I don't think I can stomach another round with Comcast.


----------



## Riblet2000

Revolutionary said:


> You've got it backward. The Series3 was the bleeding edge moneymaker, the proceeds from which bankrolled development of the S3-Lite. The S3 was *over* priced. They'll shave $100 off production, $300 off the sticker, and still end up with a profitable commodity box that we think is a steal because we've been innoculated by the overpriced Series3.


Hey, if it works for Apple... 

This is great news.


----------



## bown

phoenixZed said:


> Kind of hard to tell from that picture, but it looks like it has the an OLED display like the S3. I guess that wasn't a cost cutting requirement...


the engadget article says that the OLED was axed for the Tivo lite. It also comes with the regular S2 remote.


----------



## Dan Clarke

If this is true and they bring back limited lifetime transfers, I'm buying this in a heartbeat.

I would *LOVE* to get rid of this turd Motorola 6412. Oh no, I lose VOD? How will I live, not being able to see PBS Sprout or Fuse or whatever stupid stuff is on there! It's not like it's in HD or anything!


----------



## wolflord11

If all works out, then I would be p***ed if I had purchased a Series 3 and paid Full price.

But I suppose if you had the Money to purchase a Series 3 in the first place, then you have nothing to complain about


----------



## MickeS

wolflord11 said:


> BUT: the sales of the Original Series 3 will drop alot. Why pay double the price for something that does the same job?


Good point. If the speculation here is true, there isn't much in terms of actual usability that sets the units apart. The hard drive size is a non-issue for many since it will be upgraded anyway.

I can't see the value in keeping the S3 in production anymore when this unit comes out, unless they significantly drop the MSRP (to maybe $399) and leave that as the option for those who want a bigger hard drive right out of the box.


----------



## HiDefGator

wolflord11 said:


> The introduction of the Series 3 Lite could be the death of the Original Series 3.


I think I suggested this several months back. It doesn't make sense to keep producing both if the original S3 still isn't selling well. It's unlikely the S3-Lite will increase sales of the original S3.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

HiDefGator said:


> I think I suggested this several months back. It doesn't make sense to keep producing both if the original S3 still isn't selling well. It's unlikely the S3-Lite will increase sales of the original S3.


yah, just like you do not see TiVo selling single tuner S2 models anymore - but they still get software updates and those extra features work the same.

The S3 line will be the same though the original S3 has the premium factor going for it that might keep it around in limited quantity


----------



## stevereis

classicsat said:


> Unless TiVo changed their product numbering scheme;
> 
> I wonder what the difference is between the 652 and 653 units are (besides HDD size)?
> 
> Does the second digit being 5 mean anything? Usually Tivo branded units have a 4 there. I interpret that may be another CE partner selling them.
> 
> The 080 part means, at least in traditional TiVo product numbering, and 80 GB HDD. Could that be a digital SD only Series 3?


I made this post in April '06 based on info I found, from you, among others:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3968916&&#post3968916. This is the info originally posted, with some edits now that the S2DT and S3 are now out.



stevereis said:


> Posting the info from classicsat's post on that 'other' forum into this thread
> My updates are bold, based on the new model numbers:
> TCD648250A - HD, Dual Tuner, Dual CableCard, Dual ATSC
> TCD649180/TCD649080 - SD, Dual Tuner
> 
> Model format ABCDDD
> ABC being the first digits of a TiVo or AT&T brand Model, and the first 3 digits of the service number. DDD is a representaion of drive size.
> 
> A is platform series:
> 0: Series 1
> 1: Series 2 Gen 1, USB 1.1 Standalone / Pre RID DirecTV DVR (USB 2.0)
> 2: Series 2 Gen 2, USB 2.0 Standalone.
> 3: Series 2 Gen 1, RID DirecTV DVR (USB2.0).
> 4: Series 2 Gen 2, RID DirecTV DVR.
> 5: Series 2.5 Gen 3, USB2.0 Standalone *+ DirecTV DVR (R10)*
> 6: Series 3 *or just dual tuner?*
> 
> B is manuufacturer:
> 0: Philips
> 1: Sony
> 2: Toshiba or RCA (121, 321, 521)?
> 3: AT&T *or Hughes?*
> 4: TiVo
> 5: Pioneer *or Hughes (151, 351, 357, etc.)?*
> 6: RCA/Thomson *or Toshiba (264, 565)?*
> 7: Hughes *or Pioneer: 275?*
> 8: Samsung
> 9: Humax
> *E: TGC (TiVo Greater China)?*
> *Followup posts over there indicate 2/6 and 3/7 may be swapped*
> 
> C is hardware configuration
> 0: Single HDD drive
> 1: DirecTV DVR
> 2: dual HDD *any reports of these?*
> 4: DVD player
> 5: DVD recorder
> 8: HD Dual Tuner w/CableCard
> 9: SD Dual Tuner


----------



## Dan Clarke

Totally OT, but Tivo.com is selling "refurb" Series 3 for $499 right now ...


----------



## pkscout

wolflord11 said:


> If all works out, then I would be p***ed if I had purchased a Series 3 and paid Full price.
> 
> But I suppose if you had the Money to purchase a Series 3 in the first place, then you have nothing to complain about


I'll admit to a small amount of frustration, as it will have been a little less than a year between the $800 S3 and the supposedly $300 S3 Lite. OK, I probably wouldn't care at all if I had bought the S3 on day one. I got my at the end of December because our HD TiVo died and I didn't want to have to sign another contract to get DirecTV's new non-TiVo.

But really, I'm barely upset at all. The S3 has been good to me and for me.


----------



## MickeS

pkscout said:


> I'll admit to a small amount of frustration, as it will have been a little less than a year between the $800 S3 and the supposedly $300 S3 Lite. OK, I probably wouldn't care at all if I had bought the S3 on day one. I got my at the end of December because our HD TiVo died and I didn't want to have to sign another contract to get DirecTV's new non-TiVo.
> 
> But really, I'm barely upset at all. The S3 has been good to me and for me.


I'm a little upset, since I bought mine last month. But that's life when it comes to CE. You can't stop progress.


----------



## Justin Thyme

Hogues92 said:


> I have one mcard in the correct slot on my Tivo (Comcast only had one card at the time and it took me 3 visits to get that). As of know it is only working with one tuner. Unless I'm doing something wrong, it appears that this feature has not been enabled yet. I'm hoping for it soon because I don't think I can stomach another round with Comcast.


FCC regulations state that Comcast must provide you any number of cablecards that you desire.

However, the S3 will treat any installed MCard as an SCard until all of the following occurs:

Cablelabs certifies the S3 as an MCard Host (this may have happened, but there is no proof).
The server that supports the cable lines for your neighborhood is updated to support MCards. Unless the cable company needed to distibute new MCard set top boxes in your neighborhood, there is nothing requiring them to upgrade. 
Tivo downloads the MCard software update to Series 3's. No such announcement has been made.

I see no announcement from Cablelabs that ANY Tivo has achieved certification for M-Card operation (M-UDCP host certification). Nor, for that matter, Mcard Host certification for Any device from ANY company. That is more than a little bit surprizing given that the Cable industry promised we would have MCard support by this time last year. It's startling because you would have to have two $1400 OCUR cablecard readers to do what one S3 does, so the computer industry is a heck of a lot more motivated to get MCard Host certification complete, and yet I see no mention of their certifications for MCArd.

I wonder if devices could be certified and there be no Cablelabs announcement. I wonder if Moto and SciAtl boxes using MCards have to be certified. It seems to me that they definately would have to be using certified SCards and MCards in their new boxes after 7/1/2007 ban. But it also seems to me that it wouldn't be fair if the Cableco boxes only trivially used the Cablecards whereas third parties had to fully use them. The only way to verify this would be to require cablelabs certification for the cableco provided boxes as well.


----------



## pkscout

Justin Thyme said:


> Nor, for that matter, Mcard Host certification for Any device from ANY company. That is more than a little bit surprizing given that the Cable industry promised we would have MCard support by this time last year.


It'll only be surprising if we still don't have it in 2010. If the cable companies are only a year behind their "promise" with regards to multi-stream cable cards then that's par for the course.



> But it also seems to me that it wouldn't be fair if the Cableco boxes only trivially used the Cablecards whereas third parties had to fully use them. The only way to verify this would be to require cablelabs certification for the cableco provided boxes as well.


There hasn't been anything fair about the process to date, why should anything change now.


----------



## moyekj

Justin Thyme said:


> Nor, for that matter, Mcard Host certification for Any device from ANY company. That is more than a little bit surprizing given that the Cable industry promised we would have MCard support by this time last year.


 Well there are cable companies already deploying the Moto DCH3416 to customers, so I have to presume there is an M-card in the back slot of those. In my local cable AVS forum I asked a poster to check the back of his DCH3416 but it looks like cable card slot in the back has a screwed in metal plate over it (probably to prevent tampering) so you can't see if there is a card in there or not unless it is removed (which he didn't want to do). Maybe it is possible to use the DCH without removable security (since it's backwards compatible with DCT) but that would seem to violate the spirit of the FCC regulation (and would seem pointless for cable companies to deploy as such).


----------



## Adam1115

We made the news..!

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070718-nothing-too-lite-about-new-299-tivo-series-3-unit.html

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/18/1815225&from=rss


----------



## Justin Thyme

Anyone who can't get the necessary cablecards from their cablecompany- the fastest way to resolve it is to call Tivo support. They have dealt with this before and know how to read the riot act to the local cable company. It's a pretty serious violation, and the local management may simply be ignorant that they are violating federal regulations.

Or you can make a complaint to the FCC directly:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints_general.html

The regulation is: 


> 47CFR76.640
> 
> (3) Cable operators shall ensure, as to all digital cable systems, an adequate supply of PODs that comply with the standards specified in paragraph (b)(2) of this section to ensure convenient access to such PODS by customers. (source)


----------



## Justin Thyme

Adam1115 said:


> We made the news..!
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070718-nothing-too-lite-about-new-299-tivo-series-3-unit.html


Hey Ars Technica- have the decency to credit the specific person. Bkdtv scooped this. He came up with the model number, specs you quoted and the suggestion to google for the model number to find pictures/ confirmation from multiple retail sites.

Apparently Megazone discovered this way back on July 4th, but since he was under NDA, he decided it would be unethical to release info. He searched for Tivo HD on Froogle and it gave him a model number. Actually the hit is still there. Using the model number in Google gave him everything because amazon and everyone us has their copy up on the net on hidden pages that the google crawler found.

Mega says he is skeptical about the specs posted since he has seen no confirmation. More on the TivoLovers site.


----------



## jmpage2

Per the pricing and recent rebate on the S3.

I have noticed that local retailer stock on the original S3 at Best Buy, Circuit and others has been depleted ever since the $200 rebate ran.

I am getting suspicious now that the rebate might have been used to bring down the inventory level on the S3 box to make way for this new S3 Lite box.


----------



## aaronwt

Adam1115 said:


> We made the news..!
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070718-nothing-too-lite-about-new-299-tivo-series-3-unit.html
> 
> http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/18/1815225&from=rss


So I guess the new one should have even better tuners. It looks like a good deal. As long as the hard drive can be upgraded I can go without the OLED panel and get this for a 4th unit. If they have a lifetime transfer I might be able to get my girlfriend one to replace one of the Lifetime Series 2 single tuner units she has. I still have to finish convincing her to get an HD set. It took me 5 years to convince her to get a TiVo.(Actually accept the TiVos as a birthday present)


----------



## jfh3

tenthplanet said:


> Unless the "lite" performs better than the original S-3 I really don't see the point of it.
> Tivo makes their money on the service not such much on the units.


You're kidding, right? You are correct - Tivo makes the money on the service, not the hardware. But it's hard to sell service if you have hardware the masses can't afford. $799 MSRP was a much tougher sell than $299 MSRP.

For all practical purposes, the Series 2 line is at (or nearing) end of life. If the price point on the "S3 lite" box is as rumored, you can have HD/digital support for essentially the same price as analog. If TTG/MRV is added to the S3 s/w, then I don't really see an advantage of getting an S2 (yes, I know the S3lite will still be slightly more) if your TV signal is OTA or cable.

(Sat users will still need Series 2)


----------



## jfh3

SugarBowl said:


> Seems like the series 3 was just an IPO of sorts, to raise money from the diehards, and gain another year of development on the real product.


And if the sales team hadn't so thoroughly screwed the initial sales (remember the "Lucky 200"?), Tivo could've made a lot more money on the initial S3 sales. 

Remember - the S3 was the first box sold without a hardware subsidy. I suspect there will be a little h/w subsidy in the S3lite.

I was one of the early adopters and don't mind one bit that I bought an S3 with an "early adopter tax" (though I paid about $680 each for my two from a local retailer and price matching when Tivo couldn't take $799).

I raise my eyebrows a bit with the 160GB drive, though that's slightly better than the vast majority most of the existing cable DVRs in the field, and less of an issue if Tivo makes eSata plug and play like the Tivo wireless G (my Dad isn't ready for a Kickstart sequence, he can handle plugging in a cable and rebooting).

Edit: Changed 180GB to 160GB


----------



## Justin Thyme

aaronwt said:


> So I guess the new one should have even better tuners.


As Mega suggested, take the technical specs with a big grain of salt. The tuner listed- the Samsung S5H1411 purportedly gets 30% better reception in heavy multipath (city building reflections) situations, but the announcement for that chip was May 10, and as of Jun 28, the samsung site said it was still in a production status of "sample ready", not "mass production", as is the S5H1409- the 2005 model getting 30% worse reception.

So really- we can have fun guessing, but beyond what the screen dumps from Amazon said, don't assume too much. The folks that know what this beastie has got under the hood aren't talking, and the retail sites that did leak info were way too vague to specify anything interesting.


----------



## jrm01

wolflord11 said:


> If all works out, then I would be p***ed if I had purchased a Series 3 and paid Full price.


Yeah I was one of the early guys who paid $799 8 months ago, so I guess I'm p***ed.

I also bought a 57" 1080p DLP 18 months ago for $3200 and now it's $2000.

I also bought a Toshiba laptop 13 months ago for $1100, now it's $700.

I also bought a ...........oh forget it. I'm just p***ed!


----------



## jfh3

Justin Thyme said:


> as of Jun 28, the samsung site said it was still in a production status of "sample ready", not "mass production", as is the S5H1409- the 2005 model getting 30% worse reception.


Of course, given the number of boxes Tivo is selling these days, maybe a Samsung production status of "sample ready" isn't that much of a problem ...


----------



## doormat

$300 is a great value for a HD TiVo. I hope this does become reality, as it'll get me to buy one. At that point I worry less about SDV and the off chance of the box becoming a doorstop in 3 years. I dont need the OLED screen, THX certification and eSATA (I'll just throw in a bigger HD every two years). Not having a TiVo on my HDTV is really starting to bother me. I might even get rid of my S2 box in my room (just because I need to stop laying in bed every night until midnight watching TV... I might just get rid of the TV too).


----------



## HDTiVo

jrm01 said:


> Yeah I was one of the early guys who paid $799 8 months ago, so I guess I'm p***ed.
> 
> I also bought a 57" 1080p DLP 18 months ago for $3200 and now it's $2000.
> 
> I also bought a Toshiba laptop 13 months ago for $1100, now it's $700.
> 
> I also bought a ...........oh forget it. I'm just p***ed!


The way you are spending money, I'd be surprised if you had a pot to piss in. 



jfh3 said:


> Of course, given the number of boxes Tivo is selling these days, maybe a Samsung production status of "sample ready" isn't that much of a problem ...


That's brutal. 



> I raise my eyebrows a bit with the 180GB drive


Raise 'em just a bit more; its 160.


----------



## nhaigh

jrm01 said:


> Yeah I was one of the early guys who paid $799 8 months ago, so I guess I'm p***ed.
> 
> I also bought a 57" 1080p DLP 18 months ago for $3200 and now it's $2000.
> 
> I also bought a Toshiba laptop 13 months ago for $1100, now it's $700.
> 
> I also bought a ...........oh forget it. I'm just p***ed!


I bought a 60" TV, TiVo S3 and HT System the week the S3 came out. I'd been hanging on until its release. All of it is much cheaper now, but I've had the enjoyment of it all this time. No regrets at all.


----------



## jfh3

I wonder if there will be any smaller cable companies buying these boxes to use to rent to their own customers? (The cable co-op marketing deal from a while back)


----------



## GoHokies!

nhaigh said:


> I bought a 60" TV, TiVo S3 and HT System the week the S3 came out. I'd been hanging on until its release. All of it is much cheaper now, but I've had the enjoyment of it all this time. No regrets at all.


That makes two of us. I actually bought the TV in late August on the rumors of "coming soon" and suffered through the cable company crap for about a month before Comcast could come and take it away and give me my cable cards, and that month just reinforced the fact that I made the right decision jumping when I did. I've had a great 10 months of HD and have been loving it!


----------



## HDTiVo

jfh3 said:


> I wonder if there will be any smaller cable companies buying these boxes to use to rent to their own customers? (The cable co-op marketing deal from a while back)


What would happen on the "service" end?


----------



## jrm01

HDTiVo said:


> The way you are spending money, I'd be surprised if you had a pot to piss in.


I don't. My ex-wife got that.


----------



## tibruk

Okay, hate to bring up this question but here goes. Everyone is saying a retail price of $299.99. Will there be a different price if bought with a subscription deal?

Tibruk


----------



## pkscout

tibruk said:


> Okay, hate to bring up this question but here goes. Everyone is saying a retail price of $299.99. Will there be a different price if bought with a subscription deal?
> 
> Tibruk


Sure, with a three year subscription it will be $598.


----------



## HDTiVo

jrm01 said:


> I don't. My ex-wife got that.


You had an excellent pre-nup. Congrats. :up:  :up:



tibruk said:


> Okay, hate to bring up this question but here goes. Everyone is saying a retail price of $299.99. Will there be a different price if bought with a subscription deal?
> 
> Tibruk


Since November, TiVo has been keeping the retail prices on par with the bundle prices for the DT. I think the S3-lite is more likely to follow that.


----------



## Dajad

It surprises me how many people are upset because a cheaper unit is coming out. This reminds me of the Parable of the Talents (I believe). Hey, if you thought the unit was worth what you paid for it, why bregrudge someone else getting a better deal. I bought the S3 last November and I have no regrets. I bought my PS3 2 months ago and now Sony is lowering the price. That's life. I'm happy to see the price go down so more people can enjoy these products (not that there is much to enjoy on the PS3 right now however!  ).


----------



## eddyj

And the early S3 adopters were able to transfer their lifetime to those boxes.


----------



## Mike20878

Here's another blog entry on this:

http://www.tvsquad.com/category/tivo/


----------



## BobCamp1

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Now you may have a choice of low cost Series 3 TiVo
> 
> TCD653080
> 
> or
> 
> TCD652160


If the two were the same except for HD space, you'd think the part number would 2080 instead of 3080. So something else could be different.

Maybe the 3080 is not a DVR as such, but something you would use as a regular set top box and as a receiver for MRV. It would only need a small HD (80 GB) to store the OS and to act as a buffer for the show being streamed. Maybe single-tuner HD only with one CableCard. No need for eSATA. Just a simple box to plug into your bedroom TV.

So you'd buy one big Tivo, and a bunch of mini-Tivos. This is how Verizon does MRV -- the regular HD set top boxes can stream directly from the main DVR.


----------



## rmassey

OK, so I just bought an s3 w/ the $200 rebate, net cost $400.

New S3L will be $299. 
For +$100 I get... 1) +90 gb of storage (250 vs 160 on S3L), 2) a better remote, 3) THX cert. and 4) OLED Display, 5) a nicer case + 6) eSata port - will the S3L have this or not?

Works for me  that seems to be worth $100 IMO. No complaints here. Plus I get to use my S3 now rather than wait for the S3L release.


----------



## snathanb

MickeS said:


> I'm a little upset, since I bought mine last month. But that's life when it comes to CE. You can't stop progress.


I bought mine last month, too (well, my second one), and it was only $399 after rebate, so no biggie.


----------



## jrm01

pkscout said:


> Sure, with a three year subscription it will be $598.


Actually I think it will be $598.99.


----------



## jrm01

snathanb said:


> I bought mine last month, too (well, my second one), and it was only $399 after rebate, so no biggie.


You did good.


----------



## hybucket

jrm01 said:


> You did good.


Where are you "good shoppers" finding those rebate deals??


----------



## phoenixZed

bown said:


> the engadget article says that the OLED was axed for the Tivo lite. It also comes with the regular S2 remote.


Yeah you're right. When I got a chance to look at the larger image Megazone posted on his site, I could see that the blurry line of text I took for a show title is actually the word "Native", which instead refers to how the signal is output. My bad...


----------



## doormat

hybucket said:


> Where are you "good shoppers" finding those rebate deals??


There was a $200 rebate last month that brought the price down to $400 or so.

That said, I wonder if the parts have come down in price since TiVo built the S3 box initially - now we see all these STBs from Netgear and Apple that include video playback functionality. So the bcm chips had to come down in price because the market is becoming competitive. And if you figure the box cost $500 this time last year, the parts are now probably 300, plus the cheaper case and such leads to a BOM cost of somewhere around 250. Plus 50 for the manufacturing and shipping, and TiVo is selling them for a bit of a loss, but they can probably move tons of these boxes now that HD is becoming more mainstream. Having them ready for Christmas 07 is a big deal, since we'll probably see $999 42" LCD HDTVs en masse this year.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

jrm01 said:


> I don't. My ex-wife got that.


well that explains why you can spend so freely on electronic gadgets now


----------



## jrm01

ZeoTiVo said:


> well that explains why you can spend so freely on electronic gadgets now


You got that right. It's surprising what descretionary funds you have available when you eliminate hair dressers, white wine, new draperies, and second green fees (I played 184 rounds of golf last year, she played 132).


----------



## jfh3

HDTiVo said:


> What would happen on the "service" end?


Don't know - I don't recall the terms of the initial marketing agreement. I presume the cable company would pay Tivo some monthly fee on behalf of the sub.

Everyone wins - customer gets a real Tivo experience without upfront cost; cable company makes money on the rental and part of the monthly service fee. I'd guess Tivo would get more than the $1+ they get for DTV, but don't know.


----------



## petew

BobCamp1 said:


> If the two were the same except for HD space, you'd think the part number would 2080 instead of 3080. So something else could be different.


Given that an 80Gb disk would only be 8hrs of HD, my guess would be a SD only digital box.


----------



## Revolutionary

phoenixZed said:


> Yeah you're right. When I got a chance to look at the larger image Megazone posted on his site, I could see that the blurry line of text I took for a show title is actually the word "Native", which instead refers to how the signal is output. My bad...


Don't take the engadget post as gospel. You'll note that their source for that post is *this thread*.


----------



## hybucket

The Series 3 is down to 599 now on Amazon.


----------



## MickeS

hybucket said:


> The Series 3 is down to 599 now on Amazon.


It's been at that price in many places for a while. I bought it for that price at Amazon last month.


----------



## jmpage2

Dajad said:


> It surprises me how many people are upset because a cheaper unit is coming out. This reminds me of the Parable of the Talents (I believe). Hey, if you thought the unit was worth what you paid for it, why bregrudge someone else getting a better deal. I bought the S3 last November and I have no regrets. I bought my PS3 2 months ago and now Sony is lowering the price. That's life. I'm happy to see the price go down so more people can enjoy these products (not that there is much to enjoy on the PS3 right now however!  ).


You bought a PS3????       

J/K

*hugs his HD DVD player*

In all seriousness, if the box doesn't have a functioning eSATA port how hard is it to upgrade the disc on one of these? (I've been building PCs for years).


----------



## HDTiVo

jmpage2 said:


> (I've been building PCs for years).


In that case it may take you years to replace the HD. Otherwise, it may be as easy as most people find changing a PC's HD.


----------



## jmpage2

HDTiVo said:


> In that case it may take you years to replace the HD. Otherwise, it may be as easy as most people find changing a PC's HD.


Well if I took "years" to build hundreds of them it might be a different story, eh? :up:


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Dajad said:


> It surprises me how many people are upset because a cheaper unit is coming out. This reminds me of the Parable of the Talents (I believe). Hey, if you thought the unit was worth what you paid for it, why bregrudge someone else getting a better deal. I bought the S3 last November and I have no regrets. I bought my PS3 2 months ago and now Sony is lowering the price. That's life. I'm happy to see the price go down so more people can enjoy these products (not that there is much to enjoy on the PS3 right now however!  ).


I own more than one S3, and I am happy to see that TiVo is going to release a lower priced HD DVR with CC support. I hope it sells like hot cakes


----------



## snathanb

DCIFRTHS said:


> I own more than one S3, and I am happy to see that TiVo is going to release a lower priced HD DVR with CC support. I hope it sells like hoy cakes


mmmmmm.... hoy cakes!


----------



## DCIFRTHS

snathanb said:


> mmmmmm.... hoy cakes!


You like them too?


----------



## msrolla

They're even better with hoy sause.


----------



## Dajad

jmpage2 said:


> You bought a PS3????
> 
> J/K
> 
> *hugs his HD DVD player*
> 
> In all seriousness, if the box doesn't have a functioning eSATA port how hard is it to upgrade the disc on one of these? (I've been building PCs for years).


Yupp, but to be clear, I've had an Xbox 360 since launch and I've been loving it! I've spent more time playing PS2 games on my PS3 than anythign else. I've never owned any play station so I'm getting caught up on classic PS games - God of War, God of War 2, Ratchet & Clank, that sort of thing. I have a huge back library of fun to play on the PS3 until real PS3 content starts rolling out next year. Can't wait for Halo 3 on Sept 26!


----------



## vstone

DCIFRTHS said:


> I own more than one S3, and I am happy to see that TiVo is going to release a lower priced HD DVR with CC support. I hope it sells like hot cakes


I am happy that Tivo has a chance to survive and continue providing program listings to already purchased and operating equipment.

While I applaud Tivo for providing some S1 users a method of moving off of that platform, I can't see those who seem to think that Tivo owes them lifetime equipment transfers every time it releases a new product ( might feel different if I had lifetime service (actually I did at D* before I bailed), but I don't think so).


----------



## Stormspace

HDTiVo said:


> I have mixed feelings about this. Personally I would just as soon take it for less $$ with no HD. Anything they ship is going to be useless to me.
> 
> On the other hand, from a market standpoint, doing less than 250 GB for the cheap-o-s3-lite makes me uncomfortable. (Edit: _I'll dovetail this into my belief that TiVo is about to ship/price the right DVR for last year's market._)
> 
> It is absurd that the so-called premium S3 still ships with only a 250GB HD. Perhaps they have so many sitting in the warehouse that they are still selling off.
> 
> I'll guess less than 0%.
> 
> Which is also going to be my guess for lack of analog recording capability.


It's been a while since I've posted but I wanted to say HERE HERE! This is exactly the box that should have been released last year. And the reason the Premium still has a 250GB drive? They are not selling. If they were the lite version wouldn't even be on the drawing board.


----------



## Kablemodem

I think the S3 was as or more successful than TiVo expected it to be. It was never intended to be a mass market product.


----------



## gwsat

I love my S3 and am very glad that I have it. The fact remains, though, that, because of its high cost compared to cable company rental boxes, the S3 is a niche product. Who, other than the most devoted HT and TiVo enthusiasts would be willing to pay $600 (at least) for an S3 plus $10 or $15 a month for a TiVo subscription as opposed to $10 a month for a cable company rental box? Virtually nobody it seems to me. 

I dont know what TiVos sales projections were, of course, but if they were at all grand I think they were doomed to disappointment.


----------



## HDTiVo

Stormspace said:


> I wanted to say HERE HERE! This is exactly the box that should have been released last year.


I am a bit more positive on the initial price than I was in that first post. It is a bit lower than I was thinking for this time last year, so TiVo is advancing the ball part of the way.


----------



## interactiveTV

Kablemodem said:


> I think the S3 was as or more successful than TiVo expected it to be. It was never intended to be a mass market product.


Interesting. Maybe things have changed dramatically in a few months but in March, Tom Rogers, CEO, stated that S3 sales had been "disappointing."

A few months later, he dropped the hint about the S3 lite.

_ITV


----------



## GoHokies!

You're taking one word badly out of context to try and prove your point. Kablemodem hit the nail on the head, what was "dissapointing" for Rogers was that Tivo didn't see the low-cost HD explosion that took place last year and missed out. Looks to me like they are getting back in the gane for this year with a much better placed offering.


----------



## jmpage2

Kablemodem said:


> I think the S3 was as or more successful than TiVo expected it to be. It was never intended to be a mass market product.


Well, Tivo needs a 'mass market product' to be economically viable for the next 5-10 years. I'm sure that the Comcast deal and deals with other cable providers will help their bottom line but what they really need is a box they can sell that will satisfy consumers and hook them on the Tivo service.

The new box just might do this but I still have serious concerns about SDV incompatibilities as well as the missing TTG and MRV.

The biggest differentiators that Tivo has over a sat/cable PVR are the Tivo "extras" like TTG and MRV. To many consumers everything else from a sat/cable DVR is "close enough" to a Tivo for them not to want to spend the extra $$ to make the leap.

Hopefully if they get the SDV thing figured out somehow and get TTG and MRV they can move a huge number of these Series 3 Lite boxes in Q3/Q4 of this year.


----------



## 20TIL6

Dajad said:


> Yupp, but to be clear, I've had an Xbox 360 since launch and I've been loving it! I've spent more time playing PS2 games on my PS3 than anythign else. I've never owned any play station so I'm getting caught up on classic PS games - God of War, God of War 2, Ratchet & Clank, that sort of thing. I have a huge back library of fun to play on the PS3 until real PS3 content starts rolling out next year. Can't wait for Halo 3 on Sept 26!


 My favorite PS2 games (if you haven't tried them)

Metal Gear Solid: Sons of Liberty

and my all-time favorite

Gran Turismo 4

When they release the next Gran Turismo on PS3, THAT'S when I buy a PS3.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

gwsat said:


> I dont know what TiVos sales projections were, of course, but if they were at all grand I think they were doomed to disappointment.


they never expected the current S3 to be mass amrket and made repeated statements to that point. The S3 did exactly what TiVo wnated it to do.

what caught them by surprise was the uptick in regular folk going HD. They assumed HD was still in the Home Theater enthisiast crowd and the market was not so big for a lower end HD unit. Best Buy could give them some hard numbers on this demographic and TiVo seems to have placed a lower end HD DVR on the front burner to catch up on lower end sales they had not identifeid earlier. Of course digital HD is digital HD so the premium S3 was not amde with many features to set it apart. the OLED and THX seem to be the extras so far from the pictures we have seen so far. OOnce people can compare the actual video output and performance that will be the real test


----------



## smark

They have the GT HD Concept as a free demo.


----------



## 20TIL6

smark said:


> They have the GT HD Concept as a free demo.


I remember seeing something about that, but was not sure of its availability. Is it anything more than just an HD version of GT4?

I don't mean to hijack this thread any further, but I worry about not having vibration in the controllers anymore. I think I'd miss that.


----------



## sbiller

New TiVo Series 3 Information

Sorry, posted the wrong link...


----------



## shady

sbiller said:


> TiVo HD DVR is the newest Series3


Which was the new part? (especially as the article was Posted Jul 17th 2007)

Edit: I think you linked to the wrong article


----------



## Mike20878

shady said:


> Which was the new part? (especially as the article was Posted Jul 17th 2007)
> 
> Edit: I think you linked to the wrong article


Here's the correct link


----------



## StuffOfInterest

The timing on the announcment for the new box is a little too convienent. I and many others took advantage of the $299 lifetime transfer to a Series 2 offer, which just happens to finish today. Now, the day after that offer ends, TiVo plans to announce a cheaper HD capable unit. I'll even lay odds that in a month or two they will make a $199 transfer offer for that unit.

Oh well, as long as TiVo doesn't stop making software improvements on the Series 2 like they did on the Series 1, I should be good for a few years. Oh, wait, the Engadget article speculates that TiVo may be planning to phase out the Series 2. There goes that plan.


----------



## moyekj

Mike20878 said:


> Here's the correct link


Not a very reliable source me thinks, especially:
"Oh, and big time bonus for current users: TiVoToGo is on track to finally be re-enabled on Series3 boxes, but there's a fairly huge caveat: SD shows only, HD shows will have to stay safely stowed on the box. Bummer."
More likely it's any protected digital content (SD or HD with CCI != 0x0) that cannot be transferred with everything else being fair game (SD and HD). Also no mention of MRV which for many is more important than TTG.


----------



## dig_duggler

moyekj said:


> Not a very reliable source me thinks, especially:
> "Oh, and big time bonus for current users: TiVoToGo is on track to finally be re-enabled on Series3 boxes, but there's a fairly huge caveat: SD shows only, HD shows will have to stay safely stowed on the box. Bummer."
> More likely it's any protected digital content (SD or HD with CCI != 0x0) that cannot be transferred with everything else being fair game (SD and HD). Also no mention of MRV which for many is more important than TTG.


Engadget has been pretty good with their predictions (except that whole Apple stock fiasco). We'll know soon enough.

Edit: stolen from another thread. Pre-orders begin tomorrow. Seems legit.


----------



## HDTiVo

moyekj said:


> Not a very reliable source me thinks,


I don't put much stock in engadget, but ...



HDTiVo said:


> The AP story says pre-orders will be taken on tuesday on TiVo's Web site, and units will be in stores by early august.
> 
> http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/07...s-happening-11/


----------



## moyekj

dig_duggler said:


> Engadget has been pretty good with their predictions (except that whole Apple stock fiasco). We'll know soon enough.


 It doesn't make much sense that, for example, one could transfer shows from SD premium channels such as from SD HBO channels that has CCI=0x02 (copy once restriction), but one cannot transfer from ABC HD with CCI=0x0 (copy freely). Much more logical (and without raising Cablelabs eyebrows) is to restrict MRV/TTG to channels marked as copy freely, which encompasses many SD and HD digital channels (in addition to most analog encoded channels without macrovision) and rules out most of the premium channels (SD and HD). As you say, time will tell...


----------



## segaily

I am betting when they said SD only no HD they meant analog channels only no digital. That gets messed up a lot of the time by people.


----------



## Mike Lang

I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.


----------



## yunlin12

Mike Lang said:


> I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.


Midnight indiana time?


----------



## nrc

Mike Lang said:


> I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.


It's after midnight EEST!


----------



## HDTiVo

Mike Lang said:


> I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.


Looks like I'll be up all night again.


----------



## jmpage2

Mike Lang said:


> I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.


It's Midnight Greenwich Mean Time so release it already!


----------



## jfh3

Mike Lang said:


> I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.


OK, but will you?

I vote for "Yes, of course".


----------



## dvr4me

Mike Lang said:


> I have the full spec .pdf here. I think I can release it after midnight.


Ooh, six more hours (CST). Mind dropping a teaser once an hour to build up the suspense?


----------



## muya

it wont let me post a link, but if you go to tivos website and click on buy tivo the new one is up.


----------



## dvr4me

muya said:


> it wont let me post a link, but if you go to tivos website and click on buy tivo the new one is up.


LOL, I was just posting the image in a new thread. And I though I was the first to notice


----------



## hybucket

dvr4me said:


> LOL, I was just posting the image in a new thread. And I though I was the first to notice


It's up there, but it's all screwed up. They must have put it up in a hurry.


----------



## Arcady

I think they are still loading the parts.

As soon as MRV works on this, I'm buying.


----------



## PaulS

dvr4me said:


> LOL, I was just posting the image in a new thread. And I though I was the first to notice


Confirmed. A 180-hour model (presumably the 160GB drive), with the pricing mangled by a web page scripting glitch.


----------



## dvr4me

Does this mean the 180hour Series 2 DT has been Ghosted? I noticed that when I ordered my 80 hour S2DT 8 days ago the 180 hour was out of stock... It appears that it is no longer in the lineup...


----------



## MickeS

PaulS said:


> Confirmed. A 180-hour model (presumably the 160GB drive), with the pricing mangled by a web page scripting glitch.


Now it's gone. It was there and I looked at it, then I clicked on the back button and refreshed, and it's no longer there.


----------



## Arcady

Yep. And the S2 DT 180 is also still gone.


----------



## dvr4me

Must have been an oops while then upload the rest of the content... I snapped some screenshots in this thread .


----------



## jmpage2

Arcady said:


> I think they are still loading the parts.
> 
> As soon as MRV works on this, I'm buying.


Well, they really need MRV and TTG working on this box as it (and the expandable storage) are the primary advantages of going with this box over the Comcast DVR that will be running Tivo software this winter.


----------



## HDTiVo

TiVo Targets the Mainstream

http://www.businessweek.com/technol...p+news_top+news+index_businessweek+exclusives


----------



## davezatz

I posted the Series3 Lite opening animation on YouTube:





And of course posted some pictures and commentary:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-07/no-surprise-tivo-series3-lite-arrives/

I couldn't snap the main chip as it was under a glued-on heat sink - sorry. I assume Megazone will have tons more pics and detailed tech info on his site.

I can confirm official eSATA support is coming this fall. And the most interesting piece of info I wrestled out of TiVo is that they began designing this units 14 months ago - before the Series3 was even released.


----------



## MickeS

https://www3.tivo.com/index.html

Nice.


----------



## yunlin12

Does the S3 eSATA trick work on the HD?


----------



## MickeS

dave, you write "I can definitely recommend it over the Series3 to those looking to buy a high def TiVo."

Why? Only because of the lower price, or is it a better product in your opinion? I'm starting to get more and more pissed that I bought the Series 3 just a month ago.


----------



## supasta

Can I suggest an official S3 Lite thread...


----------



## Mike Lang




----------



## supasta

It sure is pretty. At first I was a little slow to like it, but I really like the look of the thing now. The S3 is, well, ugly IMO compared to previous sleek S2 models...


----------



## HDTiVo

Two big shocks:

First eSata listed as coming *late* 2007

No mention of even the possibility of MRV/TTG. That suggests to me it could be totally dead since TiVo up until now has always teased it.

http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/productspecifications/index.html

One no shock...supports analog cable/OTA. 

Told ya so.


----------



## davezatz

yunlin12 said:


> Does the S3 eSATA trick work on the HD?


I didn't test it myself, but was given the impression it does. I'm on the road in California for the week, but when I get home next weekend I can test it if no one else has reported on it.



MickeS said:


> dave, you write "I can definitely recommend it over the Series3 to those looking to buy a high def TiVo."
> 
> Why? Only because of the lower price, or is it a better product in your opinion?


Pretty much price alone. The TiVo HD is functionally equivalent to the Series3 (other than the additional M-Card support, which the S3 may get at some point). I think if you can get the S3 for $400 after rebate as it was a month or so ago, then maybe the OLED display, Glo remote, and extra hard drive space are worth that $100. But anything more than $400 or $450 is hard to justify. In fact, I figure the TiVo HD will ultimately be the end of the Series3 as we know it. (The TiVo HD actually _is_ a Series3 according to the branding on the carton, DVR, and About screen.)



HDTiVo said:


> No mention of even the possibility of MRV/TTG. That suggests to me it could be totally dead since TiVo up until now has always teased it.


Not dead. They've confirmed to me it's still under development. Given the lengthy dev time, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it won't be using our home network this time around and using coax instead.


----------



## Mike Lang

The TCF Store has one of the first huge shipments on the way. The URL should go live tomorrow.


----------



## doormat

Well I preordered mine, hopefully I'll have it in two weeks!


----------



## Mike Lang

Mike Lang said:


> The TCF Store has one of the first huge shipments on the way. The URL should go live tomorrow.


Never mind...
http://store.tivocommunity.com/merc...e=EA&Product_Code=652160&Category_Code=S3TIVO


----------



## HDTiVo

I found buried in the FAQ:



> Are TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing available on TiVo HD?
> 
> TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing are not currently available on the TiVo HD DVR. We expect that a version of TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing features will be made available for the TiVo HD DVR in the future


So basically its not in sight. 



davezatz said:


> Not dead. They've confirmed to me it's still under development. Given the lengthy dev time, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it won't be using our home network this time around and using coax instead.


Oh brother.


----------



## jrm01

Interesting that when I proceeded to the Buy it Now it quoted the monthly service plans at $6 less than list price. I was logged in and I guess it realized I already had two Tivos and qualified for MSD. Prepaid plans are not reduced.


----------



## doormat

I can still call and get the MSD on my S2 box after the TiVoHD box shows up, yeah?


----------



## HDTiVo

jrm01 said:


> Interesting that when I proceeded to the Buy it Now it quoted the monthly service plans at $6 less than list price. I was logged in and I guess it realized I already had two Tivos and qualified for MSD. Prepaid plans are not reduced.


I found this earlier this evening. It looks real. :up:

TiVo Bringing MSD to Bundles?


----------



## peteypete

Definitely prettier than earlier betas made it out to be.


----------



## Redux

davezatz said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it [TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing] won't be using our home network this time around and using coax instead.


Seeing a friend die is painful. Seeing him commit suicide is gut wrenching.

Tivo is succeeding to the extent it is by technological word of mouth, geometrically progressed, from a relatively small core of enthusiastic, technically-oriented customers who are turned on partly by the semi-semi-openness of the platform. Ironically only a tiny percentage of Tivo's customers _use_ that capability, even among the core, but _knowing_ that capability is there is what keeps their energy and evangelism high. Obviously Tivo must serve other masters; fine; but their bottom-line decision-making has to preserve that core, or there is nothing left. All Tivo's other, grandiose hopes & dreams are obviously hugely bigger, but they are built upon that foundation.


----------



## stevereis

The new Tivo HD is the TCD652160 reported on earlier.

Any speculation on what the TCD653080 is that was also reported on earlier?

FWIW, there are ~$200 DVD recorders being released now with NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners. They down-rez all output to 720x480 so it can be re-encoded to DVD-compliant MPEG2. They must use the DVD-upsampler output to display 720p or 1080i since you never see true HD. However, what you see is the quality you can record on DVD. Since an 80GB HDD is pretty small for HD (10 hours), I wonder if the 653 might be something like this. It could replace the S2DT and even have the external cable box inputs so it could support ATSC/NTSC + cable and still be cheaper by not having to support CableCards.


----------



## HDTiVo

stevereis said:


> The new Tivo HD is the TCD652160 reported on earlier.
> 
> Any speculation on what the TCD653080 is that was also reported on earlier?
> 
> FWIW, there are ~$200 DVD recorders being released now with NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners. They down-rez all output to 720x480 so it can be re-encoded to DVD-compliant MPEG2. They must use the DVD-upsampler output to display 720p or 1080i since you never see true HD. However, what you see is the quality you can record on DVD. Since an 80GB HDD is pretty small for HD (10 hours), I wonder if the 653 might be something like this. It could replace the S2DT and even have the external cable box inputs so it could support ATSC/NTSC + cable and still be cheaper by not having to support CableCards.


Engadget interview with Denny stated this is it. that's all she wrote this year.


----------



## MickeS

MRV via coax? How? the Series 3 and the HD don't even have coax outputs.


----------



## stevereis

The VIXS XCode 2115 chipset in megazone's photos looks interesting...

This link has the specs for the 2111:
http://www.vixs.com/sections/products/xcode_2100/products_xcode_2111.htm

Note that it can to HD to SD transcoding and even MPEG2-HD to MPEG4 HD transcode. So, theoretically, TiVo could enable a down-rez function for MRV (would probably have to do it in the background and disable viewing since this is probably the only decoder in the box). They could also enable an HD 're-compress' function to squeeze HD shows you want to archive for longer term to MPEG4 so they take less HDD space.

I do not see H.264 or VC-1 support in the 2111 but the 2115 may have it. If not, that may limit the formats that the S3 line may eventually support for PC transfers since they would probably limit to the formats both boxes could display.


----------



## HDTiVo

davezatz said:


> In fact, I figure the TiVo HD will ultimately be the end of the Series3 as we know it.


From Reuters:


> Jim Denny, vice president of product marketing for TiVo said he was unsure if TiVo was building new Series3 boxes, but believes existing inventory should keep the device available through the start of 2008.


Its a good thing the S3 sold according to expectations  or they might have 'em on hand until 2010.

ROFLMAO!


----------



## supasta

I would be suprised to see the current S3 model continue to be produced. I see the TiVoHD as a replacement.


----------



## ldc3000

supasta said:


> I would be suprised to see the current S3 model continue to be produced. I see the TiVoHD as a replacement.


From Tivo faq

How is TiVo HD different from the TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder?

Both products are designed on the Series3 architecture so the core TiVo functionality is the same. However, the TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder will remain as our premium HD DVR product with features such as a bigger hard drive (250gb), THX Certification, front panel display and a programmable, back-lit remote control.


----------



## btwyx

Weaknees even have HD upgrades for it alreay: http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-hd-tcd652160.php

160GB is just pitiful for an HD recorder (says the guy with the 750GB S3). That'd be the first thing I'd do if I got one.


----------



## supasta

ldc3000 said:


> From Tivo faq
> 
> How is TiVo HD different from the TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder?
> 
> Both products are designed on the Series3 architecture so the core TiVo functionality is the same. However, the TiVo Series3 HD Digital Media Recorder will remain as our premium HD DVR product with features such as a bigger hard drive (250gb), THX Certification, front panel display and a programmable, back-lit remote control *and costs a mere $300(double!) more.*.


FYP
Sorry, people are not going to pay $300 more for the exact same thing minus a fancy remote($30) and 90GB of storage($?? but with the soon available upgrade eSATA drives from BB this is more the case)


----------



## bkdtv

Some of the specifications posted earlier to this thread were off the mark. From zatz blurry shots, it looks like:

TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160)
- BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
- 2x ATI Theater 314 based tuners
- 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADC, each with 16MB RAM (2x NT5DS8M16FS-5T)
- VIXS XCode 2115 IC (CableCard interface + 2x [email protected] encoder)
- 256Mb DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U) 
- 160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS SATA hard drive
- Xilinx Spartan-? FPGA
- Cheaper PCB w/o PCI slots
- eSATA

Updated: July 24


----------



## aindik

This thing at $299 down plus $6.95 a month, versus the cable DVR at $0 down and 11.95 a month. Break-even is at about 70 months. This thing won't last 6 years, so there must be some value added for the increased price over the cable DVR. 

Estimate it lasts for 3 years. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $6.95 (assuming 5% interest) is $231.89. Plus $299 box fee makes the present value to own and use for 36 months to be $530.89. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $11.95 is $398.72. Difference is $132.17, or $3.96 a month. Plus the cost of cablecards. That's the cost of the TiVo service. Worth it?


----------



## davezatz

bkdtv said:


> - 2x 128Mbit NANYA (32Mb total) DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS8M16FS-5T) for encoder
> - 2x 512Mbit (128Mb total) NANYA DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS32M16BS-5U) main memory


I'm in CA and my box is in MD, but I think there might have been more than 4 Nanya chips. Maybe 6 or 8 total? When Megazone shows up, he can probably tell us.


aindik said:


> Plus the cost of cablecards.


Comcast gives me my cards for free.


----------



## bkdtv

davezatz said:


> Comcast gives me my cards for free.


Did you notice any differences in tuning QAM channels between the Series3 and SeriesHD? Quoting from the ATI Theater site:


> Theater 314/312 offers exceptional performance in the cable environment. Their adaptive blind equalization algorithms allow for fast acquisition times, while interference detection and mitigation algorithms provide robust performance in the presence of burst noise and adjacent channel interference.


Did you see anything to suggest that the equalization in the TivoHD might be better than the Series3?


----------



## HDTiVo

stevereis said:


> The VIXS XCode 2115 chipset in megazone's photos looks interesting...
> 
> This link has the specs for the 2111:
> http://www.vixs.com/sections/products/xcode_2100/products_xcode_2111.htm
> 
> Note that it can to HD to SD transcoding and even MPEG2-HD to MPEG4 HD transcode. So, theoretically, TiVo could enable a down-rez function for MRV (would probably have to do it in the background and disable viewing since this is probably the only decoder in the box). They could also enable an HD 're-compress' function to squeeze HD shows you want to archive for longer term to MPEG4 so they take less HDD space.
> 
> I do not see H.264 or VC-1 support in the 2111 but the 2115 may have it. If not, that may limit the formats that the S3 line may eventually support for PC transfers since they would probably limit to the formats both boxes could display.


Where are those pics?

It wasn't clear to me that the MPEG 4 transcode was HD? What is ASP L5?

What catches my eye is the MSDRM and Real Networks DRM. Could this lead to protected WMV content being available?

Does the S3 have any of this too?


----------



## bkdtv

HDTiVo said:


> Where are those pics?
> 
> It wasn't clear to me that the MPEG 4 transcode was HD? What is ASP L5?


ASP5 L5 is the MPEG-4 (Part 2) profile that allows for frame rates up to 720x576 @ 30 fps.

Tthe previous poster misunderstood. The XCode 2111 doesn't do MPEG-2 HD to MPEG-4 HD.



HDTiVo said:


> What catches my eye is the MSDRM and Real Networks DRM. Could this lead to protected WMV content being available?
> 
> Does the S3 have any of this too?


The original Series3 used a Broadcom BCM7042. Broadcom doesn't have the datasheet for their part, but a BCM7041 is basically two BCM7042 encoders on a single chip. It has no means to encode or transcode to MPEG-4.


----------



## riddick21

supasta said:


> FYP
> Sorry, people are not going to pay $300 more for the exact same thing minus a fancy remote($30) and 90GB of storage($?? but with the soon available upgrade eSATA drives from BB this is more the case)


I think TiVo can get away with charging a premium for the S3. They should probably bump up the hard drive space but I think there is a market for people who want the best of the best in their HT setup and this usually includes THX certification. Just because you don't find a use for it doesn't mean no one will.


----------



## HDTiVo

bkdtv said:


> ASP5 L5 is the MPEG-4 (Part 2) profile that allows for frame rates up to 720x576 @ 30 fps.
> 
> Tthe previous poster misunderstood. The XCode 2111 doesn't do MPEG-2 HD to MPEG-4 HD.
> 
> The original Series3 used a Broadcom BCM7042. Broadcom doesn't have the datasheet for their part, but a BCM7041 is basically two BCM7042 encoders on a single chip. It has no means to encode or transcode to MPEG-4.


I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.

One thing about the specs:



> TurboMPEGTM Transcoding
> 
> Format conversion of multiple streams:
> 
> · MPEG2 HD to MPEG2 SD
> 
> · MPEG2 HD to MPEG4 (ASP, SP)
> 
> Bit-rate reduction of multiple streams:
> 
> · 30 Mbps è 128 Kbps
> 
> Resolution reduction of streams:
> 
> · HDTV --> SDTV --> CIF --> QCIF
> 
> · HDTV --> HDTV
> 
> High-speed video processing up to 8X real-time


The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?


----------



## bkdtv

HDTiVo said:


> I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.


The full specifications for the BCM7041 aren't published. It may do HD MPEG-2 -> SD MPEG-2 transcoding. Broadcom's part with MPEG-4 encoding and transcoding is the BCM7043, and it's not done yet.



> The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?


I don't know. Passthrough, maybe? But for HD encoding, it would need to say [email protected] For HD transcoding, it would need to say High Profile (HP), not Advanced Simple Profile (ASP).

More curious is the specifications state "Single D1 MPEG 2/4 (ASP, SP) encode capable." A single XCode 2111 cannot encode two analog streams at once. _Edit: The TivoHD uses the 2115, not the 2111, so it's likely that the 2115 adds a second encoder._


----------



## HDTiVo

Now that I know where to look... the chip I see in the picture says 2115.

And there is no 2115 in their product list or found upon a search.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

bkdtv said:


> Some of the specifications posted earlier to this thread were off the mark. From zatz blurry shots, it looks like:
> 
> TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160)
> - BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
> - 2x ATI Theater 314 based tuners
> - VIXS XCode 2115 encoder / transcoder
> - 2x 128Mbit (32Mb total) NANYA DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS8M16FS-5T) for encoder
> - 2x 512Mbit (128Mb total) NANYA DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS32M16BS-5U) main memory
> - 160Gb SATA HD
> - Xilinx Spartan-? FPGA
> - Cheaper PCB w/o PCI slots
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the ATI tuners can eliminate the digital tuning issues reported by some customers.


From the information that you currently have, would you say that one platform is _better_ than the other? If so, why?


----------



## HDTiVo

The diagram on this page http://www.vixs.com/sections/markets/applications/applications_pvr_stb.htm
seems to show two analog inputs

This sheet on the 2121 shows *two * hybrid tuners...
http://www.vixs.com/sections/products/product_sheets/sheets/XC-2121-07-V1.0.pdf

This sheet on the 2111 shows *one * hybrid tuner
http://www.vixs.com/sections/products/product_sheets/sheets/XC-2111-07-V1.0.pdf


----------



## HDTiVo

The 7041 appears to have two analog encoders...
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7041-PB05-R.pdf

The 7401 has one or two encoders?
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf

could the TiVo HD be using the 2115 and the 7401 for two analog encodes?


----------



## bareyb

riddick21 said:


> I think TiVo can get away with charging a premium for the S3. They should probably bump up the hard drive space but I think there is a market for people who want the best of the best in their HT setup and this usually includes THX certification. Just because you don't find a use for it doesn't mean no one will.


If both were available when I bought my S3 I still would have bought the S3. I definitely think there's a market for them still.


----------



## megazone

My review.

TiVo HD Photos

There are some errors in the thread - the ViXS chip isn't the encoder, there are two Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL encoders. One chained off each ATI Theater 314. I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.

There are 6 RAM chips - 2x8MB, one for each encoder chain, and 4x32MB for the main memory.

There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)

As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.


----------



## bicker

Evangelism doesn't pay the bills. The "core" is whatever is necessary to sustain a profitable market offering, even if that varies from what original evangelists want it to be.


----------



## sbiller

HDTiVo said:


> I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.
> 
> One thing about the specs:
> 
> The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?


Could be transrating.


----------



## Adam1115

It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

Adam1115 said:


> It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.


Is it correct to say that your opinion is that TiVo is going to discontinue the S3 once current supplies run out?


----------



## bkdtv

megazone said:


> My review.
> 
> TiVo HD Photos
> 
> There are 6 RAM chips - 2x8MB, one for each encoder chain, and 4x32MB for the main memory.
> 
> There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)
> 
> As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.


From your review:



megazone said:


> Each encoder has an associated Nanya NT5DS8M16FS-5T chip, which is a dedicated 8MB RAM bank. The main system memory consists of four Nanya NT5DS32M16BS-5U chips, for a total of 128MB RAM - the same as the Series3.


According to page two of NANYA's product guide, the NT5DS32M16BS-5U is 512Mbit part, aka 64MB. Four of them translates to 256MB.

If 128Mb of that is devoted to system memory, then the other half must be devoted to the ViXS XCode?



megazone said:


> I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.


This January press release probably gives a hint:


> CableCard Conditional Access SDK - ViXS will show its CableCardTM development kit for DTV embedded systems and will feature the industrys first development kit for M-CARD system development. The SDK is developed around the ViXS XCodeTM 2121 single chip video engine with glueless CableCardTM and SmartCardTM interfaces embedded. The SDK reference design will support development of the TranscryptionTM of scrambled data to a number of DRM systems and transcoding of video into various MPEG formats.


It looks like Tivo is using a variation of the 2121 to provide the CableCard / MCARD interfaces and encoding / transcoding. As a bonus, it may also support SD->HD and HD->SD transcoding for MRV with Tivo Series2 units.


----------



## vman41

Where are going with dropping any 'series' designation in the model name? Do they not expect an eventually replacement for the TiVo HD? The 'Series 2' moniker seemed to cover a fairly broad range of models, but they don't want the new unit considered as a series 3.


----------



## davezatz

megazone said:


> As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.


Hm, I wonder if they'll be moving HD files. And if so, how long is it going to take?


Adam1115 said:


> It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did


What makes you think that?


----------



## HDTiVo

megazone said:


> I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.


Good, I feel less stupid. You've been very helpful. Now let's send Dave to Picture Taking of Review Unit Guts school. 


> There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)
> 
> As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.


Good stuff. I went to bed thinking the TiVo HD may have some very interesting hardware capabilities the S3 does not. I look forward to learing more.

One thing I wonder is in what way the TiVo HD is the same platform as the S3? With these different chips it seems somewhat different, perhaps even its own platform as in a seperate direction to functionality.



dave said:


> Hm, I wonder if they'll be moving HD files. And if so, how long is it going to take?


Denny says they are working on not being resolution restricted. Sounds like another death match leading to a long wait to me.


----------



## stevereis

megazone said:


> There are some errors in the thread - the ViXS chip isn't the encoder, there are two Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL encoders. One chained off each ATI Theater 314. I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.


The Philip 7138's are not MPEG encoders, just analog to digital converters (encoders) for both the video and audio:http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/literature/9397/75015903.pdf 
Interesting thing to note is that they can accept 480p progressive component inputs (not that the new box has them).


----------



## GoHokies!

Adam1115 said:


> It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.


Do you have any actual evidence to back up that wild claim? If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?

If you're going to make outragous statements like this, you may want to supply some form of evidence.


----------



## aindik

GoHokies! said:


> Do you have any actual evidence to back up that wild claim? If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?
> 
> If you're going to make outragous statements like this, you may want to supply some form of evidence.


Seems like a form of what economists call "price discrimination," getting people who are willing to pay more to pay more. They release one thing and price it at $800, capturing the full $800 from everyone willing to spend $800 or more on an HD DVR. When the supply of those people is exhausted, then introduce the $300 model to capture everyone else.

Why not just price the thing at $800 until it stops selling and then reduce the price to $300? PR is better when you introduce a cheaper unit, rather than cutting a price of a unit whose price you could have started that low.

No evidence, just a theory.


----------



## HDTiVo

Mega:

I am reading your review and wanted to point this out about the 3rd Sata connection; it is something I wrote about last year and it hit me last night when I saw the transcoder. The possibility of transcoding to DVD format of HD content (and SD) to be burned via a DVD burner.

Some other thoughts:

I don't get the front CC card slots with the expense of a door. You put the cards in once (hopefully) and never access them. Seems like a big waste - unless TiVo is resigned to CCs being highly troublesome.

Are the same Hybrid modes still there? Are there new output modes?

With all the chip changes, etc., how is this really the S3 platform?


----------



## Arcady

megazone said:


> There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)


The AV input and what looks like IR/Serial ports (ala Series2) is very interesting indeed. If the 3rd SATA port is for a DVD burner, then perhaps the AV input could be used to import content not only as regular TiVo content, but also to burn to disc. With the IR/Serial, one could control a regular STB, but I don't see why you would want to.


----------



## bkdtv

HDTiVo said:


> With all the chip changes, etc., how is this really the S3 platform?


The Broadcom BCM7401 CPU integrates the BCM7038 and BCM7411 found in the S3 platform. That higher-level software code should be backward compatible.

But you are right, the new TivoHD will need separate drivers for its new tuners, encodes, and CableCard interface. The ViXS XCode CableCard interface is quite different from that in the Series3, so MCARD support for the TivoHD can't be directly ported to the Series3.


----------



## HDTiVo

More:

Does the lack of Broadcom chips represent a major departure from TiVo being a Broadcom shop? How much software work went into making this move?

I am thinking TiVo got a customized version of the ViXS 2100 line for itself.

With all that's in this unit, I find it hard to see enough savings to justify the lower retail price without some HW subsidy. I think their strategy is a bit changed on that.

You mention the platform taking over the S2, but with the cost of the design, I wonder if that's possible, or how it could be made to be so.


----------



## atmuscarella

> With the IR/Serial, one could control a regular STB, but I don't see why you would want to.


This might actually be interesting to satellite users OTA digital/HD + satellite SD on one box. It would make staying with Tivo when I go HD easier. I most likely would also have a dish HD DVR but having a HD OTA Tivo that could also control another dish STB would be useful.

Thanks,


----------



## jmpage2

aindik said:


> This thing at $299 down plus $6.95 a month, versus the cable DVR at $0 down and 11.95 a month. Break-even is at about 70 months. This thing won't last 6 years, so there must be some value added for the increased price over the cable DVR.
> 
> Estimate it lasts for 3 years. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $6.95 (assuming 5% interest) is $231.89. Plus $299 box fee makes the present value to own and use for 36 months to be $530.89. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $11.95 is $398.72. Difference is $132.17, or $3.96 a month. Plus the cost of cablecards. That's the cost of the TiVo service. Worth it?


Where do you get a service plan for $6.95?


----------



## aindik

jmpage2 said:


> Where do you get a service plan for $6.95?


Multi-Service Discount with a three year agreement. (I have a Series 2 TiVo with lifetime service).


----------



## HDTiVo

Arcady said:


> The AV input and what looks like IR/Serial ports (ala Series2) is very interesting indeed. If the 3rd SATA port is for a DVD burner, then perhaps the AV input could be used to import content not only as regular TiVo content, but also to burn to disc. With the IR/Serial, one could control a regular STB, but I don't see why you would want to.


VOD/SDV? 

There is definitely a lot more here than meets the eye. Lots to figure out. Very stimulating.


----------



## bkdtv

HDTiVo said:


> Does the lack of Broadcom chips represent a major departure from TiVo being a Broadcom shop? How much software work went into making this move?


They are still using the same basic Broadcom MIPS CPU. Based on Broadcom's performance claims, the MIPS CPU in the TivoHD is about 7% faster than the one in the Series3, but aside from that they're virtually identical.

They'll "just" be using drivers for the new encoders and ATI tuners rather than drivers for the Broadcom encoders and Samsung tuners.


----------



## jmpage2

aindik said:


> Multi-Service Discount with a three year agreement. (I have a Series 2 TiVo with lifetime service).


Ah, ok, that makes more sense, I wouldn't qualify for a multi unit discount.


----------



## davezatz

HDTiVo said:


> Now let's send Dave to Picture Taking of Review Unit Guts school.


I knew Mega would have it covered. 


GoHokies! said:


> If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?


TiVo told me they began designing this new model 14 months ago. I assume they didn't announce it because they didn't want to kill S3 sales. As it is, S3 sales have probably stalled in the last month with all the TiVo HD leaks. I don't know why anyone would buy an S3 going forward. Well, until TiVo starts offering some blow-out prices (speculation) to clear their inventory maybe before the holidays.


----------



## aindik

jmpage2 said:


> Ah, ok, that makes more sense, I wouldn't qualify for a multi unit discount.


That's my fault for assuming that most people here already have a TiVo.


----------



## audio

This may be an odd question.

This box does record analog and digital cable as well as analog and didgital OTA.

Given this, could the box function without CableCards, ie, with just basic cable and OTA?

Most of the HD programming I watch is OTA anyway. Given the problems with SDV, as long as it can function the same as my Series2, with the added bonus of OTA HD, this will be well worth the cost of upgrading.


----------



## Arcady

My Series3 box worked great for weeks without cablecards, only recording basic cable and OTA. I don't see why the new box would behave any differently.


----------



## chandler1818

So, when S3 dies (which is a pretty safe assumption based on what denny apparently said), my S3 will continue to receive all of the necessary upgrades because it is based on the same architecture as the new tivo hd? I would hate to eventually be shut out of any new features. . .


----------



## 20TIL6

chandler1818 said:


> So, when S3 dies (which is a pretty safe assumption based on what denny apparently said), my S3 will continue to receive all of the necessary upgrades because it is based on the same architecture as the new tivo hd? I would hate to eventually be shut out of any new features. . .


Certainly that is my view as well. Just because the S3 will probably no longer be sold after current inventory is depleted, it does not mean it is anywhere near end of life. Not by a longshot in my opinion.

I have two S3's, and yeah, I spent some coin. But for TiVo as a company, I'm thrilled about the new, less expensive unit. I'll be adding one of the new ones to my home.


----------



## chandler1818

20TIl6, I hope that is not just wishful thinking on our part.


----------



## blips

aindik said:


> Multi-Service Discount with a three year agreement. (I have a Series 2 TiVo with lifetime service).


My dad has a Series 1 with lifetime. Would he qualify for the Multi-Service Discount?


----------



## SugarBowl

blips said:


> My dad has a Series 1 with lifetime. Would he qualify for the Multi-Service Discount?


as long as the lifetime tivo has called in to Tivo once in the last 180 days.


----------



## blips

SugarBowl said:


> as long as the lifetime tivo has called in to Tivo once in the last 180 days.


Great! He is sold his house and is moving to a new one in August. He took it down in May. Hopefully it made successful calls up to that point.


----------



## Adam1115

GoHokies! said:


> Do you have any actual evidence to back up that wild claim? If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?
> 
> If you're going to make outragous statements like this, you may want to supply some form of evidence.


My wild outrageous (outragous??) "claim / statement" was simply an opinion. But, I based it on my knowledge of how long it takes to redesign electronics, circuit board, put them through testing, have them certified (fcc, etc.) That takes more than a few months in any industry I've worked in, so why is it so wild and crazy to think that it's been in the works all along? The series 3 has only been out for 10 months, you think they just thought of this 6 months ago?

There have several comments from people that have said they heard first hand from TiVo that this was in development before the Series 3 shipped.


----------



## atmuscarella

> Originally Posted by *Adam1115*
> There have several comments from people that have said they heard first hand from TiVo that this was in development before the Series 3 shipped.


This doesn't seem unreasonable to me, in fact I would guess that their next release is in development know. The issue I think some had was your previous post made it sound like you believed this unit was ready last fall and TiVo held it back waiting for the current Series 3 to sell out. I find that highly unlikely.

Thanks,


----------



## 20TIL6

chandler1818 said:


> 20TIl6, I hope that is not just wishful thinking on our part.


I'm not worried at all.


----------



## davezatz

audio said:


> Given this, could the box function without CableCards, ie, with just basic cable and OTA?


Yep, that's exactly how I tested it.


----------



## ZeoTiVo

davezatz said:


> I knew Mega would have it covered.
> 
> TiVo told me they began designing this new model 14 months ago. I assume they didn't announce it because they didn't want to kill S3 sales. As it is, S3 sales have probably stalled in the last month with all the TiVo HD leaks. I don't know why anyone would buy an S3 going forward. Well, until TiVo starts offering some blow-out prices (speculation) to clear their inventory maybe before the holidays.


nice write up dave adn Megazone.

I still think what everyone is missing here is TiVo's desire to make the two product lines on the same manufacturing line. analog market still has a lot of legs in it given the lack of any real competition in the analog market. However TiVo is not interested in keeping manufacting capability around the S2 line long term. So they design this motherboard and case so they can make either the Tivo HD or the S2 DT model from same basic parts. That is step 1 and means the DT changes in looks a little bit and we see the 540 version of the DT come to light. I think the leaked TCD653080 is about a model like that.

next may be the integration of parts from the two lines into one universal box? This one I am not so sure about. Why would I want to pay for IR blasters I would not use? why add to the cost of either box? The only change I can see Sat having in TiVo's strategy is if they do some deal with E* to settle the suit. Even at that I can not see E* opening up its box but instead working out dev deal on its existing hardware or some other integrated E* only box.

anyway glad to see TiVo thinking ahead with this box to future times. Nice work :up:


----------



## ZeoTiVo

HDTiVo said:


> Denny says they are working on not being resolution restricted. Sounds like another death match leading to a long wait to me.


no, that simply means that MRV/TTG will work ofr anything tha tis not recorded via an encrypted digital stream. so an open cable channel of HD or HD off the OTA is fair game and does not need any nod from cable labs. Denny went so far as to say anything without a broadcast flag which is interesting as well.

we know tivo told megazone directly that they are working on bringing MRV/TTG before the end of the year to the S3 and soon after to Tivo HD (most likely since they have to work to merge the Tivo HD code branch back in and get to one Os for the S3 and Tivo HD.

so any concerns about MRV/TTG is based on thinking about the old TiVo of years ago. Like you yourself said HDTiVo - this new box and its fast delivery time should have everyone saying hello to the new tiVo inc. :up:


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## Mike20878

How does the cableCARD work? Would there be some kind of cable/cord hanging down the front of the box? Or does a cableCARD just give you permissions to view content that still comes over coax?


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## aindik

Mike20878 said:


> How does the cableCARD work? Would there be some kind of cable/cord hanging down the front of the box? Or does a cableCARD just give you permissions to view content that still comes over coax?


The latter. The Cablecard decrypts what comes over the coax.


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## GoHokies!

Adam1115 said:


> My wild outrageous (outragous??) "claim / statement" was simply an opinion. But, I based it on my knowledge of how long it takes to redesign electronics, circuit board, put them through testing, have them certified (fcc, etc.) That takes more than a few months in any industry I've worked in, so why is it so wild and crazy to think that it's been in the works all along? The series 3 has only been out for 10 months, you think they just thought of this 6 months ago?
> 
> There have several comments from people that have said they heard first hand from TiVo that this was in development before the Series 3 shipped.


Not at all. I'm not questioning the fact that Tivo didn't start working on this in January (thanks Dave for the 14 months, that puts us about 3-4 months before S3 shipped).

Saying that this was designed at the same time as the S3 is a whole different thing - not to mention completely wrong if Dave's information is correct, plus I'll bet some of the components used weren't available 2 years ago (which is when the S3 would have been designed). Presenting this as an "opinion" doesn't make it any less incorrect.

BTW, thanks for correcting my spelling mistake, I'm sure you've never made a spelling error ever.


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## Adam1115

GoHokies! said:


> Not at all. I'm not questioning the fact that Tivo didn't start working on this in January (thanks Dave for the 14 months, that puts us about 3-4 months before S3 shipped).
> 
> Saying that this was designed at the same time as the S3 is a whole different thing - not to mention completely wrong if Dave's information is correct, plus I'll bet some of the components used weren't available 2 years ago (which is when the S3 would have been designed). Presenting this as an "opinion" doesn't make it any less incorrect.


Forgive me, I meant to say "Planned" at the same time not designed. I agree, they designed the original Series 3 first.


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## GoHokies!

Adam1115 said:


> Forgive me, I meant to say "Planned" at the same time not designed. I agree, they designed the original Series 3 first.


OK, gotcha - that makes a lot more sense.


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## megazone

vman41 said:


> Where are going with dropping any 'series' designation in the model name? Do they not expect an eventually replacement for the TiVo HD? The 'Series 2' moniker seemed to cover a fairly broad range of models, but they don't want the new unit considered as a series 3.


Branding. The unit is still a Series3 - even has the logo on the lower front panel. But 'TiVo HD' is definitely a catchier brand for marketing. It tells you right in the name what it is - TiVo in HD. 'Series3' doesn't do that - only people who already know TiVo nomenclature know S3 means HD.


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## megazone

stevereis said:


> The Philip 7138's are not MPEG encoders, just analog to digital converters (encoders) for both the video and audio:http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/literature/9397/75015903.pdf
> Interesting thing to note is that they can accept 480p progressive component inputs (not that the new box has them).


Aha - things are getting clearer now. I went nuts trying to find specs on that chip and I never could, just a general note on utilization for the family of chips.

So it does look like the ViXS is doing the analog encoding.


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## megazone

HDTiVo said:


> You mention the platform taking over the S2, but with the cost of the design, I wonder if that's possible, or how it could be made to be so.


Time and economies of scale.

Component prices *always* drop with time. So they may not replace the S2DT this year, maybe early next year. But at some point the cost of the components will decline enough to make it worth while to garner the cost savings of eliminating the older design.

On top of that you get economies of scale. Building 100 each of two designs generally costs more than building 200 of one design. You can buy larger quantities of components and get better discounts. You get more efficiencies from the production lines.


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## aaronwt

So any word on Lifetime transfers?


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## megazone

aaronwt said:


> So any word on Lifetime transfers?


TiVo says they have no plans for lifetime transfers to the TiVo HD at this time.


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## aaronwt

megazone said:


> TiVo says they have no plans for lifetime transfers to the TiVo HD at this time.


I guess I'll need to get one sometime later this year. Hopefully by then I'll be able to do a lifetime transfer.


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## m_jonis

aindik said:


> This thing at $299 down plus $6.95 a month, versus the cable DVR at $0 down and 11.95 a month. Break-even is at about 70 months. This thing won't last 6 years, so there must be some value added for the increased price over the cable DVR.
> 
> Estimate it lasts for 3 years. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $6.95 (assuming 5% interest) is $231.89. Plus $299 box fee makes the present value to own and use for 36 months to be $530.89. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $11.95 is $398.72. Difference is $132.17, or $3.96 a month. Plus the cost of cablecards. That's the cost of the TiVo service. Worth it?


In my case the DVR is only $4.95/month (if I sub to HBO or SHO which I HAVE to do in order to get HBO-HD and/or SHO-HD), and no monthly rental box fee.

vs.:

$6.95/month Tivo, 
plus $1.95 x 2 for Cable cards/month
plus $300 for box

I think I'll just wait and see what SDV and TTG/MRV holds and continue to use my MythTV box with QAM.


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## ChuckyBox

davezatz said:


> Well, until TiVo starts offering some blow-out prices (speculation) to clear their inventory maybe before the holidays.


I'd be surprised if there were a lot of S3 inventory lying around. If they've known this box was coming for 14 months, there won't be many S3s in the production pipeline for Q3 and Q4, and they've already had a big sale (i.e., the rebate offer). And they've been dumping the refurbs on the web site with a nice offer, which probably indicates they are pretty low on inventory.


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## HDTiVo

megazone said:


> Branding. The unit is still a Series3 - even has the logo on the lower front panel. But 'TiVo HD' is definitely a catchier brand for marketing. It tells you right in the name what it is - TiVo in HD. 'Series3' doesn't do that - only people who already know TiVo nomenclature know S3 means HD.


But HDTiVo is soooo much smoother.



megazone said:


> Time and economies of scale.
> 
> Component prices *always* drop with time. So they may not replace the S2DT this year, maybe early next year. But at some point the cost of the components will decline enough to make it worth while to garner the cost savings of eliminating the older design.
> 
> On top of that you get economies of scale. Building 100 each of two designs generally costs more than building 200 of one design. You can buy larger quantities of components and get better discounts. You get more efficiencies from the production lines.


The thing about time is that it also erodes your price point, so sometimes you are gaining and sometimes you may be not gaining much.

I agree about economies of scale; the thing I need to get past is that this TiVo HD is chock full of stuff, so how do you get econ of scale to overcome all that silicon goodness and/or how do you change the parts w/o ruining econ of scale. Then how do you make that cheaper overall than a specific bare bones cost reduced S2 only re-design.


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## megazone

HDTiVo said:


> I agree about economies of scale; the thing I need to get past is that this TiVo HD is chock full of stuff, so how do you get econ of scale to overcome all that silicon goodness and/or how do you change the parts w/o ruining econ of scale. Then how do you make that cheaper overall than a specific bare bones cost reduced S2 only re-design.


Compare it to the S2DT - is it really that much more? The S2DT has two Broadcom encoders, the same models use in the S3. TiVo told me they didn't use those because the system in the HD costs less - both the chips and the space savings on the board. There really isn't a lot of extra stuff in the TiVo HD - add the analog inputs and it would basically be a 180-hr S2DT with CableCARD support.

And with an increasing number of cable systems going digital, that may become a key factor too.

Once the TiVo OCAP software rolls out - that could eat their low-end a bit.


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## HDTiVo

megazone said:


> Compare it to the S2DT - is it really that much more? The S2DT has two Broadcom encoders, the same models use in the S3. TiVo told me they didn't use those because the system in the HD costs less - both the chips and the space savings on the board. There really isn't a lot of extra stuff in the TiVo HD - add the analog inputs and it would basically be a 180-hr S2DT with CableCARD support.
> 
> And with an increasing number of cable systems going digital, that may become a key factor too.
> 
> Once the TiVo OCAP software rolls out - that could eat their low-end a bit.


Would you still use the 7401? How much RAM? What tuners? The transcoder chip? etc...

What features would this have? HDMI out? Record SD (incl. digital cable) only? HD size?


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## megazone

HDTiVo said:


> Would you still use the 7401? How much RAM? What tuners? The transcoder chip? etc...
> 
> What features would this have? HDMI out? Record SD (incl. digital cable) only? HD size?


 Same as the TiVo HD PLUS analog input. Just as each generation of box that has replaced the previous generation has tended to be better, faster, and do more. I could see TiVo moving to all-HD boxes, retiring the S2DT completely.

It may sound like a big jump - but keep in mind the S1 had models that sold for a grand - and didn't compare at all to the $300 TiVo HD. The S2DT is only less expensive than the HD due to the rebate.


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## HDTiVo

megazone said:


> It may sound like a big jump - but keep in mind the S1 had models that sold for a grand - and didn't compare at all to the $300 TiVo HD. The S2DT is only less expensive than the HD due to the rebate.


Let's be careful about comparing things from several years ago as well as comparing prices which have unseen factors like margin differences.

But I will keep this idea in mind especially with regard to the TiVo HD Spec thread.


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## David Scavo

megazone said:


> TiVo says they have no plans for lifetime transfers to the TiVo HD at this time.


That is really a shame. I think they would sell a LOT of TIVOHD boxes to old Series 1 users.

There wouldn't be TIVO without those folks who ponied up $499 for 14 hours or $999 for 30 hours. Geez, throw a bone to the long-time members of the TIVOlution


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## jmpage2

David Scavo said:


> That is really a shame. I think they would sell a LOT of TIVOHD boxes to old Series 1 users.
> 
> There wouldn't be TIVO without those folks who ponied up $499 for 14 hours or $999 for 30 hours. Geez, throw a bone to the long-time members of the TIVOlution


TIVO is a business and needs to make money. It's not like you can say they are making huge $$$ on these new $299 boxes.

They could come out with Gen 4 Tivo in 3 years and we'd still see people unhappy if they didn't grandfather in the Gen 1 owners for a small fee.


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## wizzy

David Scavo said:


> That is really a shame. I think they would sell a LOT of TIVOHD boxes to old Series 1 users.
> 
> There wouldn't be TIVO without those folks who ponied up $499 for 14 hours or $999 for 30 hours. Geez, throw a bone to the long-time members of the TIVOlution


I'm a series 1 lifetime owner who would jump at the transfer. As it is, I'm probably going to replace a non-upgraded s2 with this new box, and keep my upgraded/networked s1 chugging along.


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## dbenrosen

David Scavo said:


> That is really a shame. I think they would sell a LOT of TIVOHD boxes to old Series 1 users.
> 
> There wouldn't be TIVO without those folks who ponied up $499 for 14 hours or $999 for 30 hours. Geez, throw a bone to the long-time members of the TIVOlution


They did throw us a bone when they let us transfer our lifetime S1 to the S3. Once the S3 price came down a little from the original $800, I jumped at it. Sure, the new TivoHD unit is cheaper, buy I'm happy they gave me the chance to switch. And my S1 is still chugging away recording stuff for the kids under the "free" year of service they gave me for the switch.

TiVo has given numerous opportunities to switch a lifetime S1 to a newer box, both with the S2 and with the S3. Just because you didn't take advantage of it at the time doesn't mean they should do it again. Remember that TiVo isn't generating any money on your lifetime subscription. Letting you extend that to a new box doesn't generate any new revenue for them either.


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## TVerBeek

dbenrosen said:


> TiVo has given numerous opportunities to switch a lifetime S1 to a newer box, both with the S2 and with the S3. Just because you didn't take advantage of it at the time doesn't mean they should do it again. Remember that TiVo isn't generating any money on your lifetime subscription. Letting you extend that to a new box doesn't generate any new revenue for them either.


But it would make me more likely to buy a new TiVo HD, which is more money than they'll get from me if I don't. I didn't take advantage of the chance to transfer my lifetime subscription from my S1 to an S2 because the S2 was crippled (no OTA recording) and therefore useless to me, and I didn't bite for a transfer to the S3 because that box was overconfigured and overpriced. I understand and agree that TiVo doesn't _owe_ me a transfer, but it would be both courteous and an arguably good business decision to give me the same chance others have had, now that they have a replacement for my S1 that actually meets my requirements.


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## David Scavo

jmpage2 said:


> TIVO is a business and needs to make money. It's not like you can say they are making huge $$$ on these new $299 boxes.


I think at $299 for the box and $199 for a LT transfer, they are making more than a little profit there...

I am just making a public request. I can already record in HD with TIVO (HR10-250). Surely TiVO would prefer my $500 to the $1 a month they get from DirecTV for my TiVo usage.


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## David Scavo

dbenrosen said:


> TiVo has given numerous opportunities to switch a lifetime S1 to a newer box, both with the S2 and with the S3.


Several. For me, none of the offers were compelling enough (S2 too limited, S3 too expensive). It was my choice, I agree...



> Remember that TiVo isn't generating any money on your lifetime subscription. Letting you extend that to a new box doesn't generate any new revenue for them either.


I don't see how you can say they don't generate money on a PAID Lifetime transfer. They make money on the box and on the $199 lifetime transfer. It actually *REDUCES* their cost to service my sub, since service data now comes over the Internet and not expensive dialup modem pool. So TIVO gets a profit on the hardware, reduces their service cost, and gets $199 to spread over 4 years. Sounds like a win for TiVo and a win for Series 1 users.

They certainly will not make as much as if I signed up for a 3 year contract, but I am not willing to pay through the nose per month when I get HD recording and multiple SD recorders (all using TIVO technology) from DirecTV for free each month (whichs nets TIVO a cool $1 per month).


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## David Scavo

TVerBeek said:


> agree that TiVo doesn't _owe_ me a transfer, but it would be both courteous and an arguably good business decision to give me the same chance others have had, now that they have a replacement for my S1 that actually meets my requirements.


Well said, TVerBeek.


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## bicker

TVerBeek said:


> But it would make me more likely to buy a new TiVo HD, which is more money than they'll get from me if I don't.


You're just one guy. What matters is how many current lifetime subscribers will still buy a new TiVo HD while keeping lifetime on their aging S1s and S2s. They could readily trump you.


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## David Scavo

bicker said:


> You're just one guy. What matters is how many current lifetime subscribers will still buy a new TiVo HD while keeping lifetime on their aging S1s and S2s. They could readily trump you.


You are probably right on there....

I can certainly see where it is a LOT harder for S1 folks to turn down $299 vs $799 / $499. Personally, I can already record HD with TiVo (HR10-250), so I can afford to wait


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## TVerBeek

bicker said:


> You're just one guy. What matters is how many current lifetime subscribers will still buy a new TiVo HD while keeping lifetime on their aging S1s and S2s. They could readily trump you.


Or they might not. I think you overestimate the number of people who want two or more TiVos around the house. (The folks who populate this forum and boast about their TiVo farms are not exactly representative of the market, or the installed base.) When I heard about this new model, I thought briefly about keeping the S1 and taking advantage of the MSD to get cheaper monthly service for the HD... but what would I actually _do_ with the S1? I'd have little use for it, and even less after analog OTA goes dark. I'd rather sell it to some poor satellite or analog cable subscriber, and it's in TiVo Inc's interest for it to have the lifetime service removed from it (i.e. transferred to my hypothetical new TiVo HD) before I do that, so it can snag them a new monthly subscriber, rather than continuing to be a no-income albatross for them to support.

I should add that charging me $199 to transfer my lifetime service wouldn't feel a whole lot different to me than charging me $199 for lifetime service in the first place. That wouldn't be a "transfer"; it'd be an offer to again sell me lifetime service, on a new box, at the original price. Still a kind gesture of appreciation to an early supporter, but not exactly a bank-breaking sacrifice on their part.


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## HDTiVo

I doubt TiVo makes a profit at $299.99


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## bicker

TVerBeek said:


> Or they might not. I think you overestimate the number of people who want two or more TiVos around the house.


Well, time will tell. I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about that. The people who put out the big bucks for lifetime in the first place are often those who are so committed to TiVo to be happy to have two or more.



TVerBeek said:


> (The folks who populate this forum and boast about their TiVo farms are not exactly representative of the market, or the installed base.)


Neither are lifetime subscribers. I'm not even sure which group would have a greater percentage of enthusiasts -- the membership of this website, or lifetime subscribers -- but both would almost surely have a far greater percentage of enthusiasts than the market or the installed base.



TVerBeek said:


> I should add that charging me $199 to transfer my lifetime service wouldn't feel a whole lot different to me than charging me $199 for lifetime service in the first place. That wouldn't be a "transfer"; it'd be an offer to again sell me lifetime service, on a new box, at the original price. Still a kind gesture of appreciation to an early supporter, but not exactly a bank-breaking sacrifice on their part.


I think you perhaps don't really know whether or not it would be a sacrifice on their part or not.


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## HDTiVo

TVerBeek said:


> I should add that charging me $199 to transfer my lifetime service wouldn't feel a whole lot different to me than charging me $199 for lifetime service in the first place.


$199 is probably not practical for real Lifetime, but TiVo is probably coming around to realize they hurt themselves badly by dropping it completely.


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## crouch

Aren't you grandfathered into a free transfer of lifetime service? 

I noted your join date to this forum was in December 1999. If you bought your Series 1 at that time (I think before January 27, 2000), you should be grandfathered in to one free transfer of your lifetime subscription. Do a search on this site for the code that you should reference when talking to the Tivo rep.


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## David Scavo

crouch said:


> Aren't you grandfathered into a free transfer of lifetime service?
> 
> I noted your join date to this forum was in December 1999. If you bought your Series 1 at that time (I think before January 27, 2000), you should be grandfathered in to one free transfer of your lifetime subscription. Do a search on this site for the code that you should reference when talking to the Tivo rep.


I went monthly for a few months before I went lifetime (box prices of $499 were a killer back then). So I don't think I am technically eligible for the transfer.


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## TVerBeek

bicker said:


> Well, time will tell. I'm pretty sure that you're wrong about that. The people who put out the big bucks for lifetime in the first place are often those who are so committed to TiVo to be happy to have two or more.


Hi, there. I'd like to introduce myself. I paid for lifetime service way back when because it was a blindingly obvious better deal than month-to-month, and I have no interest in owning two or more TiVos. You now have a data set of _two_ rather than just your own subjective viewpoint.


> I think you perhaps don't really know whether or not it would be a sacrifice on their part or not.


And you do? Get over yourself, dude.


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## bicker

You are just one more person.

As I said: Time will tell.


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## GoHokies!

TVerBeek said:


> And you do? Get over yourself, dude.


Actually, bicker's been around here and involved in discussions about lifetime and Tivo's business for a long time, so he does have a bit of an idea of what he's talking about. You may have to challenge that narrow worldview of yours and accept the fact that someone may know something that you don't.

Tearing someone else down generally isn't the best way to build yourself up, "dude".


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## TVerBeek

GoHokies! said:


> Actually, bicker's been around here and involved in discussions about lifetime and Tivo's business for a long time


Hanging around here and chatting with other fanatics doesn't give one much perspective on the rest of the market, which is what he imagines himself to be a mind-reading expert on. I'm not here to earn points, or find same-thinking friends, so I don't mind challenging him on that.


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## MickeS

TVerBeek said:


> Hanging around here and chatting with other fanatics doesn't give one much perspective on the rest of the market, which is what he imagines himself to be a mind-reading expert on. I'm not here to earn points, or find same-thinking friends, so I don't mind challenging him on that.


FWIW, I'm another single-TiVo with Lifetime user. 

Well, until I bought the Series 3 earlier this year.


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## ZeoTiVo

TVerBeek said:


> Hanging around here and chatting with other fanatics doesn't give one much perspective on the rest of the market, which is what he imagines himself to be a mind-reading expert on. I'm not here to earn points, or find same-thinking friends, so I don't mind challenging him on that.


I had a poll in coffeehouse on who was waiting on lifetime transfer to buy a TiVoHD. The people in the forum who responded and wanted to buy a TiVo HD overwhelmingly said they would wait for a lifetime transfer.

however I also see a lot of new faces and ids in the forums, clearly indicating the TiVop HD has generated a large amount of interest. If this translates into the TiVo HD selling well then TiVo really has no marketing incentive to offer the transfer at any price. the only value left is to move more people off of S1 lifetimes, which doers not seem to be enough in itself yet. I also wonder if TiVo is leaving the lifetime transfer as an advantage for buying the higher priced original S3 HD model


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## bicker

Don't confuse him with facts, please.


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## Koan

ZeoTiVo said:


> ... the only value left is to move more people off of S1 lifetimes, which doers not seem to be enough in itself yet.


Agree. If Tivo wanted to move people off the S1 lifetimes, the best time to offer the transfer was when the Tivo HD was introduced. The longer the delay, the more S1 lifetime owners will have bought the Tivo HD and put it on the MSD plan. Under MSD, they will want to keep the S1 active as long as possible.


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