# New TiVo Bolt OTA



## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

New TiVo Bolt OTA looks to have popped up on Amazon a few days ago. Assuming the pencilled in price sticks, service is most likely separate, unlike the Roamio OTA most of the time, but these hardware specs are obviously way better - including built-in outbound streaming AND voice remote. (also not black and white like the unreleased, first cut of this idea a few years back)

TiVo Bolt OTA


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

TiVo OTA service subscription is required. Options include a monthly service plan at 6.99/mo. with a 1-Year commitment, or an Annual service plan at 69.99/year. An All-In service plan is also available for a one-time, single payment of 249.99.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

At $500 all in, this makes it pretty much a non-starter in that segment. With the new competition in the field, one would think Tivo could do better. Then again, they can always discount the sub. Tivo's biggest impediment to acceptance has always been the monthly subscription cost. They need to do away with that pricing model, price it as all in and then be competitive in the marketplace. Tivo's time to be even relevant is dwindling, especially with its lackluster streaming support.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

So I wonder if this really does indicate that the Roamio OTA is gone now as someone else was thinking since it had been out of stock on TiVo's web page.

Scott


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Interesting that, on the TiVo web page describing the Bolt OTA, the link ("The antenna-ready TiVo BOLT OTA is ready for you. Get yours today here.") goes to a page that only has the Roamio OTA...


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## fredi (Apr 1, 2017)

OTA is TiVo's future considering the demise of cablecards. A Roamio OTA is $399.99 so $100 for a Bolt that does so much more is worth it. I hope the OTA only tuner will be better than the current tuner in the Bolt. My TiVo HD can pick up 65 channels while my Bolts only get 51 channels. Even my Dish Network tuner gets 60 channels. If they keep the same tuner perhaps they can at least open it up to ClearQAM cable channels and find a way to record the live streams.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

The "Aereo Edition" lives!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'm seriously considering one. Has TiVo improved using apps like Plex? I've tried it on my Roamio and it always seemed clunky, as opposed to using an Apple TV, Roku, or Nvidia Shield.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

Interesting timing considering the Amazon box was announced exactly one week ago & the 4-tuner box is $280 "all in." ($310 for an apples-to-apples comparison since the amazon box requires at least one fire stick).

It looks better against a comparable Tablo setup. That's around $330 ($200 four tuner box + $100 hard drive + $30 streaming device) and their service charge is $5/$50/$150 (monthly/yearly/lifetime). I think TiVo's a much better one-box solution, but the Mini Vox's are still outrageously expensive for extending that to multiple TVs. Tivo's app situation both on the boxes themselves and for streaming to other devices is also terrible.


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## pj1983 (Dec 26, 2016)

I'm not looking to pick up another Bolt, but I'll ask: is this just a Bolt VOX with the CC bracket deleted? There are varying assessments around here about the quality of the Bolt's tuner.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

pj1983 said:


> I'm not looking to pick up another Bolt, but I'll ask: is this just a Bolt VOX with the CC bracket deleted?


Most likely. Nothing new has passed through the FCC so this is probably the same hardware as the unreleased OTA Bolt from 2015, which did pass through.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

Hi guys, sorry I couldn't give TC a heads-up on this one. Since it was going out as a press release and we're a public company, some things are frowned upon. I'm going to jump in and respond to a few of the comments/questions you might have.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

They missed the mark on pricing. They also don't have apps like Tablo and Recast (within Amazon's ecosystem anyway), so you still have to buy Minis for every room, which gets pricey quick. I'm not getting rid of my Roamio OTA, but this is a tough sell against the competitors in this market space. Also, the Bolt's OTA tuner isn't even as good as the Roamio OTA's, which is really a let-down. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing that a Bolt does that a Roamio doesn't already do, as other streaming boxes handle 4k.

This seems not entirely unexpected, and not exciting at the same time. They really should have just kept making the Roamio OTA and tried to get it down to $349 or $299. If they want to go all-in on the Bolt and the outbound streaming part of it, then they need Roku, Apple TV, Android TV, Chromecast, and FireTV apps to stream to.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

jcthorne said:


> At $500 all in, this makes it pretty much a non-starter in that segment. With the new competition in the field, one would think Tivo could do better. Then again, they can always discount the sub. Tivo's biggest impediment to acceptance has always been the monthly subscription cost. They need to do away with that pricing model, price it as all in and then be competitive in the marketplace. Tivo's time to be even relevant is dwindling, especially with its lackluster streaming support.


I agree that this keeps TiVo priced at the high end of the market, but not like a BOLT VOX 1TB with AIP. When used with antenna, that would have been $850. Now, we're at $499 all-in. A 4-tuner Tablo with a Roku Ultra, 1TB WD drive and LT service would still set you back $460 and you've got a DIY system with a HDD that is not rated for constant AV use. Our goal is to deliver a single, unified system that has the look, feel and reliability of a Pay TV set-top box. That's not a cheap undertaking.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

HerronScott said:


> So I wonder if this really does indicate that the Roamio OTA is gone now as someone else was thinking since it had been out of stock on TiVo's web page.
> 
> Scott





HerronScott said:


> So I wonder if this really does indicate that the Roamio OTA is gone now as someone else was thinking since it had been out of stock on TiVo's web page.
> 
> Scott


Roamio OTA is gone. TiVo is out-of-stock, Amazon is out-of-stock. There are a couple of hundred of them left at Best Buy stores and I think WeaKnees has a few. TiVo also have factory renewed Roamio OTA here for #349.99 - | TiVo but they do not come with the VOX Remote.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

To add to my previous post, the TiVo model of a central TiVo and Minis is only going to appeal to the geekiest amongst us who really care about transport controls and not re-encoding video from it's native MPEG-2. Everyone else wants something that they can stream to their other boxes that they already have wirelessly. Also, MoCA for some bizarre reason causes people's brains to explode, even though it's quite simply in reality, so a system like Tablo that's wireless is much simpler for most people to set up.

Lastly, launching a new-ish product with ATSC 1.0 at this point seems like throwing something into obsolescence. TiVo needs to get on ATSC 3.0, and as soon as broadcasts are up, push something out that can handle ATSC 3.0, unless the plan is for the Bolts to have a USB add-on ATSC 3.0 tuner since they already can decode HEVC, but I highly doubt that knowing TiVo.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I agree that this keeps TiVo priced at the high end of the market, but not like a BOLT VOX 1TB with AIP. When used with antenna, that would have been $850. Now, we're at $499 all-in. A 4-tuner Tablo with a Roku Ultra, 1TB WD drive and LT service would still set you back $460 and you've got a DIY system with a HDD that is not rated for constant AV use. Our goal is to deliver a single, unified system that has the look, feel and reliability of a Pay TV set-top box. That's not a cheap undertaking.


The Refurb Roamio OTA is a much better deal. When comparing to Tablo, you have to look at the per TV cost. That's fine for a single TV household, but if you have two or three TVs, for someone new to the TiVo ecosystem, they have to buy TiVo Minis for every TV, versus using streaming devices that they already have with Tablo. I won't compromise on video quality, so I have no interest in something that re-encodes MPEG-2 into MPEG-4, but for most people, the re-encoded MPEG-4 that Tablo puts out is perfectly adequate, and they can stream it wirelessly on virtually anything.

The Bolt OTA is going against the all-wireless, all-IP trend. While it is all-IP within the home, it's not wireless in a world that has moved to everything except the cable or fiber connection coming into the house being wireless, and we're a few years out from many areas not even needing wires for that with Verizon's wideband 5G (a few areas will have that in a few days).


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> I'm seriously considering one. Has TiVo improved using apps like Plex? I've tried it on my Roamio and it always seemed clunky, as opposed to using an Apple TV, Roku, or Nvidia Shield.


The processor in BOLT is 7x the performance of Roamio. The RAM in BOLT is 3x the RAM in Roamio. Apps will feel much more snappy and we try to hold them in memory to reduce load-time for apps you visit regularly.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

pj1983 said:


> I'm not looking to pick up another Bolt, but I'll ask: is this just a Bolt VOX with the CC bracket deleted? There are varying assessments around here about the quality of the Bolt's tuner.


We removed the CableCARD connector, MOCA networking and some supporting components. Otherwise, it's the same spec as a BOLT VOX. The Roamio OTA and BOLT OTA use the same tuner, and we have lab tested them against each other to ensure that the BOLT is as good a tuner as Roamio. I have seen some comments comparing things to Premiere, but that was a completely different tuner architecture. These new silicon tuners are a bit more sensitive to lower strength stations. Some people will benefit from using an amplifier with their antenna to bump up the signal a bit.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

It seems counter-intuitive, but are there plans for a CBS All-Access app? CBS is the one channel I can't pick up without installing a roof antenna. I'm trying to keep it simple, and would love to be able to have one device to handle everything.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

And one more:

Is it possible to start with a monthly subscription and then upgrade to the lifetime? I want to be able to take it for a test drive before committing to lifetime service.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

TiVo_Ted said:


> We removed the CableCARD connector, MOCA networking and some supporting components. Otherwise, it's the same spec as a BOLT VOX. The Roamio OTA and BOLT OTA use the same tuner, and we have lab tested them against each other to ensure that the BOLT is as good a tuner as Roamio. I have seen some comments comparing things to Premiere, but that was a completely different tuner architecture. These new silicon tuners are a bit more sensitive to lower strength stations. Some people will benefit from using an amplifier with their antenna to bump up the signal a bit.


Hi Ted, thanks for posting. I went to TiVo.com and no response to a search for Bolt OTA. It's nice to "hear" from you. Stop by more often. You know we love you.


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## DVR_Dave (Apr 19, 2017)

What justifies non-OTA subscription options being more than twice as much as OTA subscriptions?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

The Roamio OTA sort of removed the OTA-only pricing issue by only providing all-in service.

Considering the lower service prices on the Bolt OTA Vox, would Tivo do anything for existing Bolt customers using OTA? Guessing not, but have to ask. Thanks for visiting us.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> If they want to go all-in on the Bolt and the outbound streaming part of it, then they need Roku, Apple TV, Android TV, Chromecast, and FireTV apps to stream to.


Here's hoping that's among the goals of the new TiVo mobile app currently being beta'd. (Not that Ivotay_Edtay could say.)


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> Is it possible to start with a monthly subscription and then upgrade to the lifetime? I want to be able to take it for a test drive before committing to lifetime service.


I'm sure the 30-day money back guarantee will still apply, but the price list doesn't indicate any restrictions. I'm sure TiVo would love customers to start with a monthly plan before committing to All-In.

edit: I expect TiVo would be OK upgrading customers to All-In from monthly, waving whatever months remained from the 1-year commitment.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

I'm relatively new to OTA but as the picture is much better I'm contemplating buying this and dropping cable. The problem is in order to get the channels I'd miss I'd get something like HULU, Sling or Youtube TV, so far the one I like best is Youtube TV but since but since that comes with local channels it makes the Bolt DVR seem a bit expensive for just the benefit of a better picture than Youtube TV in regard to local channels.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

Bigg said:


> To add to my previous post, the TiVo model of a central TiVo and Minis is only going to appeal to the geekiest amongst us who really care about transport controls and not re-encoding video from it's native MPEG-2. Everyone else wants something that they can stream to their other boxes that they already have wirelessly. Also, MoCA for some bizarre reason causes people's brains to explode, even though it's quite simply in reality, so a system like Tablo that's wireless is much simpler for most people to set up.
> 
> Lastly, launching a new-ish product with ATSC 1.0 at this point seems like throwing something into obsolescence. TiVo needs to get on ATSC 3.0, and as soon as broadcasts are up, push something out that can handle ATSC 3.0, unless the plan is for the Bolts to have a USB add-on ATSC 3.0 tuner since they already can decode HEVC, but I highly doubt that knowing TiVo.


We are keeping an eye on the ATSC 3.0 trials that are happening in Chicago and elsewhere. They're still using Korea standard gear, and consumer grade components will not be available for a while. My guess is that retail ATSC 3.0 devices won't be available until 2020. If we can support an ATSC 3.0 tuner via USB, we will certainly give that a try. We are happy to sell accessories (WiFi adapters, BT dongles, MOCA bridges, etc.) when it makes sense. With a large installed base of BOLT units, it would seem like a good way to jump-start ATSC 3.0 providing that BOLT can handle the decode. There are a bunch of open questions surrounding video format, video transport, security, etc.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

JoeKustra said:


> Hi Ted, thanks for posting. I went to TiVo.com and no response to a search for Bolt OTA. It's nice to "hear" from you. Stop by more often. You know we love you.


Yes, the press release went out today, but our website doesn't update until tonight


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

krkaufman said:


> Here's hoping that's among the goals of the new TiVo mobile app currently being beta'd. (Not that Ivotay_Edtay could say.)


FYI, our new iOS mobile app should drop over the weekend (version 4.1)


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

OrangeCrush said:


> I think TiVo's a much better one-box solution, but the Mini Vox's are still outrageously expensive for extending that to multiple TVs.


Part of the reason that MINI is more expensive than other streamers is that we support native streaming of MPEG2 up to 19Mbps and multiple forms of cable grade security to achieve CableLabs certification, rotating live security keys, etc. We also support smooth 1x FF, QuickMode, SkipMode, etc. All of this is much harder to do with transcoded HLS streams. Our goal with the MINI was to make it feel as close as possible to the experience you get on the host DVR - same UI, same remote, etc.

As I said when we pulled down our old Fire TV app, we are working on a new set of "soft MINI" clients that will support Apple TV, Roku and Fire TV devices. For people that don't mind 720p60 video streams, this should be a good option for them. I don't have timing on those apps yet, but it should be sometime during the first half of next year.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

davezatz said:


> TiVo Bolt OTA





jcthorne said:


> TiVo OTA service subscription is required.





TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm going to jump in and respond to a few of the comments/questions you might have.


They have to fix the Amazon Description header to make it VERY clear that a:

"Monthly Subscription is Required"

When Amazon doesn't and they've done that before, TiVo gets tons of one star ratings from people who get very angry and say they did not know about the monthly cost when they bought the TiVo.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

TiVo_Ted said:


> We are keeping an eye on the ATSC 3.0 trials that are happening in Chicago and elsewhere. They're still using Korea standard gear, and consumer grade components will not be available for a while. My guess is that retail ATSC 3.0 devices won't be available until 2020. If we can support an ATSC 3.0 tuner via USB, we will certainly give that a try. We are happy to sell accessories (WiFi adapters, BT dongles, MOCA bridges, etc.) when it makes sense. With a large installed base of BOLT units, it would seem like a good way to jump-start ATSC 3.0 providing that BOLT can handle the decode. There are a bunch of open questions surrounding video format, video transport, security, etc.


Of course, Ted, we will hold you to that in 2020+.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

TiVo_Ted said:


> FYI, our new iOS mobile app should drop over the weekend (version 4.1)


Good to hear--is that going to be compatible with TE3 or require an update to TE4? Also, anything you can share about the Android app?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I don't know. I love TiVo, but that price. There are other options that cost the same or are cheaper and don't "require" a subscription, monthly or lifetime. I feel like if they had made an OTA tuner that includes MP4 (or h265) streaming to 3rd party devices like to a Roku/Shield/FireTV with all the same features Tivo has maybe they could justify it. I think currently Tivo's competition in the OTA market will catch up, especially as the TiVo's patents expire.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Just an additional data point: a TiVo Bolt OTA also brings with it the TiVo peanut remote. Not to be overlooked. As well as, the various TiVo functionalities such as SkipMode and QuickMode, and other forms of TiVo trickplay. To me, they're each worth real $.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

TiVo_Ted said:


> The processor in BOLT is 7x the performance of Roamio. The RAM in BOLT is 3x the RAM in Roamio. Apps will feel much more snappy and we try to hold them in memory to reduce load-time for apps you visit regularly.


I saw the 7x thing mentioned in an article as well... Is this correct? Shown in an old Bolt teardown is a BCM7449 which is clocked at 12,000 DMIPS vs. the Roamio's 3,000 DMIPS. Is the Bolt OTA using a new CPU?

If you upgraded to the 7445 or equivalent to get to 7x (21,000 dmips) that would be noteworthy for sure.


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

DVR_Dave said:


> What justifies non-OTA subscription options being more than twice as much as OTA subscriptions?


Yes! An answer to this question would be most helpful.

I bought (and continue to use) a 500GB Tivo BOLT with my exclusively OTA setup. I paid more for the device than this new offering and am paying way more for each year's annual service.

So can I pay the $69.99 annual service for my BOLT? I don't need guide data for anything but for the few local channels I get.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I suppose Atmos is asking too much.


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## jhhyde (Dec 31, 2001)

now if we could only get some proper support when we report OTA guide data issues. i have been trying to get some updates for over a year. nothing ever happens.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

jhhyde said:


> now if we could only get some proper support when we report OTA guide data issues. i have been trying to get some updates for over a year. nothing ever happens.


I'm 2 for 2 in the past 3 months. I'm quitting while I'm ahead.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TiVo_Ted said:


> FYI, our new iOS mobile app should drop over the weekend (version 4.1)


I just hope it can connect more consistently than the current one.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Just received the Bolt OTA VOX email. Pretty. Sure wish I could use it.

TV Fool

Now, if the new Bolt gets me some channels, count me in.


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## Flyinace2000 (Aug 2, 2005)

This is something i would trade my TivoHD for. Its barely works any longer and would love to get an upgrade deal to move to the Bolt OTA (even if it is only $100 off).


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

TiVo_Ted said:


> We removed the CableCARD connector, MOCA networking and some supporting components. Otherwise, it's the same spec as a BOLT VOX. The Roamio OTA and BOLT OTA use the same tuner, and we have lab tested them against each other to ensure that the BOLT is as good a tuner as Roamio. I have seen some comments comparing things to Premiere, but that was a completely different tuner architecture. These new silicon tuners are a bit more sensitive to lower strength stations. Some people will benefit from using an amplifier with their antenna to bump up the signal a bit.


Thanks, Ted- but just a point of clarification for my stupidity: is the tuner in the Bolt OTA the same as what is in the standard non-VOX Bolt?


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

JoeKustra said:


> Just received the Bolt OTA VOX email. Pretty. Sure wish I could use it.
> 
> TV Fool
> 
> Now, if the new Bolt gets me some channels, count me in.


Wow... even with minimal insertion loss between the antenna and the tuner, I'm not sure that even a 30dB gain preamp would be of much help with those noise margins. My condolences.


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## TivoJD (Feb 8, 2005)

TiVo_Ted said:


> We removed the CableCARD connector, MOCA networking and some supporting components. Otherwise, it's the same spec as a BOLT VOX. The Roamio OTA and BOLT OTA use the same tuner, and we have lab tested them against each other to ensure that the BOLT is as good a tuner as Roamio. I have seen some comments comparing things to Premiere, but that was a completely different tuner architecture. These new silicon tuners are a bit more sensitive to lower strength stations. Some people will benefit from using an amplifier with their antenna to bump up the signal a bit.


Wonder why MOCA networking was removed. Will need MOCA adapters with this one.


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

My guess is the removed MoCA for the same reason that MoCA didn't appear in the Roamio OTA- that the "typical OTA" user wouldn't have a working coax plant installed. A couple of MM1000's would cure this deficiency....


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## BoltOn (Sep 27, 2018)

Love my Bolt Vox and glad to see some movement to compete with other products. Can you add more apps? That’s the key for differentiation. Support Directvnow, SlingTV, YouTube, and Vie with OnePass and you pass the wife test!!! All the input switching to my Apple TV for streaming is driving everyone batty.


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## bellbm (Dec 16, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> FYI, our new iOS mobile app should drop over the weekend (version 4.1)


Great! Anything you can share regarding what will be updated in the ap?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tapokata said:


> My guess is the removed MoCA for the same reason that MoCA didn't appear in the Roamio OTA- that the "typical OTA" user wouldn't have a working coax plant installed. A couple of MM1000's would cure this deficiency....


OTA folks should not be underestimated.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

TiVo_Ted said:


> FYI, our new iOS mobile app should drop over the weekend (version 4.1)


What about android? Be nice to try a new version on my Huawei mediapad M3 to see if it does anything other than crash when I try to use it.


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## mlcarson (Dec 31, 2007)

I really don't see the attraction to this offering. You can get an Android TV setup which would offer a lot more flexibility paired with an HDHomerun tuner and get Schedules Direct guide data. You then have the HDHomerun Premium IPTV service which would offer users a more cable TV like offering. I suppose if you already have a bunch of Mini's and want to stay in the Tivo ecosystem that it's an acceptable offering.


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## Satchel (Dec 8, 2001)

Well, I think a large part of the Bolt OTA's appeal is for non-technical people who don't want to or don't have the tech chops to piece together a cheaper or more flexible solution of parts that may or may not need constant upkeep.

Senior citizens want to cut the cord too, and giving them a one box solution with easy setup and interface is a good thing.

there will always been cheaper, better, more flexible options. Heck I work in IT and I'm running an HDHomerun into my Plex server played through an Apple TV. It all works fine, except when it doesn't. Then my wife just glares.

I'm seriously considering the Bolt OTA for my live TV/DVR use, plus streaming. It has a Plex client, so I can watch my stored movies. It all just seems cleaner and easier.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

DVR_Dave said:


> What justifies non-OTA subscription options being more than twice as much as OTA subscriptions?


Market competition.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Market competition.


Plus, also, as someone reminded me earlier: a Guide with cable has much more info. and presumably takes more time and effort to deal with. But I don't know that this is a factor that TiVo would add into its calculations, in setting a lower price for the OTA subscription.

My hunch: OTA people aren't used to paying higher fees and/or don't want to, some of them in fact having left the cable world because of the fees. And so attract (more of) them by having a lower fee.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> Hi Ted, thanks for posting. I went to TiVo.com and no response to a search for Bolt OTA. It's nice to "hear" from you. Stop by more often. You know we love you.


 As I posted above, the link is incorrect...it says Bolt, but it goes to the Roamio...


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

We use Bolt's for the simple reason: at a certain level, it's a one box, once device utility. The wife uses it full time, despite having access to a TV with the same OTT apps. My wish is TiVo would add apps for Sling or PSVue, but I don't realistically expect that to happen anytime soon.

We're OTA users, having only flirted with cable for about five years, before cutting the cord again. One of the driving justifications (for me) behind that cord cut was the ability to get the regional sports networks via Sling or PSVue.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Yes, the press release went out today, but our website doesn't update until tonight


Sorry, but that is just poor execution of a rollout...TiVo should do better.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I saw the 7x thing mentioned in an article as well... Is this correct? Shown in an old Bolt teardown is a BCM7449 which is clocked at 12,000 DMIPS vs. the Roamio's 3,000 DMIPS. Is the Bolt OTA using a new CPU?
> 
> If you upgraded to the 7445 or equivalent to get to 7x (21,000 dmips) that would be noteworthy for sure.


You are correct. I went back and looked at my notes. I had 21k vs. 12k for the chip we use in BOLT (BCM 7449S). I must have transposed the 12 into 21. The performance increase is 4X, not 7X.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Sorry, but that is just poor execution of a rollout...TiVo should do better.


I agree the timing wasn't ideal. The PR folks don't like putting out press releases on a Friday. By the time we changed that, we couldn't change the website update. In our defense, the press release does say the product doesn't launch until tomorrow


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

jth tv said:


> They have to fix the Amazon Description header to make it VERY clear that a:
> 
> "Monthly Subscription is Required"
> 
> When Amazon doesn't and they've done that before, TiVo gets tons of one star ratings from people who get very angry and say they did not know about the monthly cost when they bought the TiVo.


Yes, we are fixing that. It will say this:

TiVo OTA service subscription is required. Options include a monthly service plan at 6.99/mo. with a 1-Year commitment, or an Annual service plan at 69.99/year. There is also a one-time payment plan (All-In Plan) available for $249.99


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

TivoJD said:


> Wonder why MOCA networking was removed. Will need MOCA adapters with this one.


Well, there were multiple reasons for this. First, it allowed us to reduce the cost of the box a bit. I'd guess it was around $5.00 in components. Second, we have data that shows that a lot more cable customers buy MINI and use MOCA vs. OTA customers. Finally, in order to use an antenna and MOCA on the same wire, you by definition have to use a splitter in order to route the signal to other TV locations via Coax. An incoming cable signal can handle this just fine. A non-amplified antenna signal would not. When using antenna, we believe the best thing to do is to connect the antenna directly to the BOLT OTA. If you want MOCA as well, it will be much better to use an external MOCA bridge. I can whip up a quick drawing if anyone would like some advice on how to do this.


----------



## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

tapokata said:


> Thanks, Ted- but just a point of clarification for my stupidity: is the tuner in the Bolt OTA the same as what is in the standard non-VOX Bolt?


I checked, and the physical tuners on the board are the same as with BOLT VOX.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> And one more:
> 
> Is it possible to start with a monthly subscription and then upgrade to the lifetime? I want to be able to take it for a test drive before committing to lifetime service.


No, we do not offer credits for prior months paid when upgrading to an All-In Plan. However, we do offer a 30-day money back guarantee. Maybe that would be a better way to test drive?


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## Steve (Apr 24, 2003)

jcthorne said:


> ... especially with its lackluster streaming support.


If you mean built-in TiVo stream, I guess I'm having a better experience. Use it daily, in-home and out of home. Love it.

That said, I am upset by the flags set by some "cable" broadcasters that limits streaming of some shows to in-home only. Thankfully not an issue with the broadcast networks... yet.


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Finally, in order to use an antenna and MOCA on the same wire, you by definition have to use a splitter in order to route the signal to other TV locations via Coax. An incoming cable signal can handle this just fine. A non-amplified antenna signal would not.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but there's no issue with using MoCA and in-band OTA TV on the same cable with a non-amplified splitter. That's been my configuration since I purchased my first Bolt. I have a three way MoCA rated splitter in my coax plant, with a POE filter on the input from the 66' antenna downlead. The 50'+ drops connect to two OTA configured non-VOX Bolts and a TiVO Bridge at my router. The MoCA power levels are at minimum (-27dBM) and the PHY rates are all over 640Mbps, in any node direction. There is very little difference in signal strength or SNR reported by the Bolts, whether cabled directly to the antenna, or through the splitter. There is some difference in sensitivity between the Bolt tuner, and what you might find in some televisions (ie, the Bolt appears to have it's challenges in maintaining a signal lock in multi-path signal conditions, compared to some TV's) but that's not a MoCA configuration issue.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

tapokata said:


> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but there's no issue with using MoCA and in-band OTA TV on the same cable with a non-amplified splitter.


I may be just dumb, but I've had big problems trying to use MOCA with a Roamio OTA and 2 Minis. I end up with three splitter between the antenna and the Roamio and the PQ is poor. I'm intrigued by the suggestion of using an external MOCA network but don't know what it means or how to configure it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

So is this just a knee jerk reaction to Amazon releasing an OTA DVR?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> My hunch: OTA people aren't used to paying higher fees and/or don't want to, some of them in fact having left the cable world because of the fees. And so attract (more of) them by having a lower fee.


a.k.a. Whatever the market will bear.


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## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

How does this Bolt OTA differ from the Bolt Vox (other than the hardware changes Tivo_Ted mentioned)? Same functionality as a user, right?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> No, we do not offer credits for prior months paid when upgrading to an All-In Plan. However, we do offer a 30-day money back guarantee. Maybe that would be a better way to test drive?


What about just allowing someone to opt-out of the remaining months of the annual commitment associated with the monthly subscription ... were they to purchase All-In after one or more months on the monthly sub?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Well, there were multiple reasons for this. First, it allowed us to reduce the cost of the box a bit. I'd guess it was around $5.00 in components.


Can't argue with market research, but ouch, I'd have hoped savings would be *much* greater than just $5 given the cost of standalone MoCA adapters.



TiVo_Ted said:


> Finally, in order to use an antenna and MOCA on the same wire, you by definition have to use a splitter in order to route the signal to other TV locations via Coax.


Not the case, as any number of examples from TCF demonstrate. (examples can be provided on request)

Just makes the barrier to a Mini solution that much greater. (Penny wise...)


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

So does this make an unused Roamio OTA a collectors item?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Scooby Doo said:


> I may be just dumb, but I've had big problems trying to use MOCA with a Roamio OTA and 2 Minis. I end up with three splitter between the antenna and the Roamio and the PQ is poor. I'm intrigued by the suggestion of using an external MOCA network but don't know what it means or how to configure it.


Feel free to start a new thread on the subject in the Help subforum and I expect you'll find help in abundance.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

krkaufman said:


> Can't argue with market research, but ouch, I'd have hoped savings would be *much* greater than just $5 given the cost of standalone MoCA adapters.
> 
> Not the case, as any number of examples from TCF demonstrate. (examples can be provided on request)
> 
> Just makes the barrier to a Mini solution that much greater. (Penny wise...)


I agree. This really drives up the cost of having a Bolt OTA and mini system. Could really drive people away that they need another widget


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

_"Finally, in order to use an antenna and MOCA on the same wire, you by definition have to use a splitter in order to route the signal to other TV locations via Coax."_


krkaufman said:


> Not the case, as any number of examples from TCF demonstrate. (examples can be provided on request)


I see no way to do it so yes I would be interested in an example. Also, forgive my ignorance but what is TCF?


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

compnurd said:


> I agree. This really drives up the cost of having a Bolt OTA and mini system. Could really drive people away that they need another widget


Yes ..

And to be clear, especially for the MoCA 2.0 adapters which are still quite expensive new at $100-200 ea. ...

I myself am cheating to save costs by connecting two Roamio OTAs and a Mini (ver. 2) over my DIRECTV MoCA network with cheap DECA adapters ... 

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

HoTatII said:


> I myself am cheating to save costs by connecting two Roamio OTAs and a Mini (ver. 2) over my DIRECTV MoCA network with cheap DECA adapters ...


How does DECA compare with MOCA?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Scooby Doo said:


> I see no way to do it so yes I would be interested in an example.


As suggested above, please post your setup details and issue as a separate thread over in the Help subforum, or a subforum of your choosing. I'd rather not drive this thread off-topic. (I'll answer your DECA question there, too.)



Scooby Doo said:


> forgive my ignorance but what is TCF?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

HoTatII said:


> Yes ..
> 
> And to be clear, especially for the MoCA 2.0 adapters which are still quite expensive new at $100-200 ea. ...
> 
> I myself am cheating to save costs by connecting two Roamio OTAs and a Mini (ver. 2) over my DIRECTV MoCA network with cheap DECA adapters ...


TiVo Renewed Bridge directly from TiVo at $69.99 | TiVo

Of course, less-expensive alternatives available, as people, including you, have documented here in the forum.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Scooby Doo said:


> How does DECA compare with MOCA?


It's essentially the same thing except they use different frequencies.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It's essentially the same thing except they use different frequencies.


And can be found super-cheap at Amazon.com.


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It's essentially the same thing except they use different frequencies.


The DECA frequency band overlaps the Over the air or cableTV bands, so somewhat less useful if you intend to use the same coax network for viewing broadcast television from antenna or cable sources.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

Scooby Doo said:


> How does DECA compare with MOCA?


Not nearly as good. Wonder Woman was enjoyable, but everything else has been just okay when compared with Iron Man, Captain America, Avengers, etc.


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## Kennyr35 (Apr 29, 2018)

On Amazon, is the $249 price including the all in plan or is it $249 for the box plus another $249 for the service fee?

After doing some research, looks like it is $500 total which is pretty steep considering the original Roamio's were $399 including the service plan...I like the upgrades but that is a bit too high to consider upgrading at this time.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

Scooby Doo said:


> How does DECA compare with MOCA?


"DECA" is the hardware adapter that converts ethernet to MoCA, which is a standard.

Specifically it converts ethernet to the MoCA "E" band between 475-625 MHz, which of course overlaps into the OTA band. So DECAs cannot be used on the OTA antenna coax cables.

For that you would must use the regular MoCA "D" band adapters like the TiVo bridge, which operate between 1150-1525 MHz (MoCA ver. 1.0 and 1.1) or 1150-1625 MHz (MoCA ver. 2.0).

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> So is this just a knee jerk reaction to Amazon releasing an OTA DVR?


Yes, they whipped all the workers in Mexico into manufacturing these right after their recent Amazon press release so they can get this out tomarrow. Man they are fast!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

foghorn2 said:


> Yes, they whipped all the workers in Mexico into manufacturing these right after their recent Amazon press release so they can get this out tomarrow. Man they are fast!


If it's anything like the Roamio OTA it's just a Bolt with the CableCARD bracket removed. Wouldn't be that hard to manufacture relatively quickly. Maybe not in a week, but perhaps they had some advanced notice that Amazon was working on an OTA DVR. Or maybe they finally ran out of stock of Roamio OTAs and decided to move to the Bolt platform.

In any case the timing of this is quite convenient since there is a major competitor coming into their space soon.


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## NEOhero (Sep 15, 2018)

First time poster and a TIVO newbie:

I honestly hope that it has a better tuner than the OG Bolt I currently have. Even then, I'll still hold on to my Bolt since it has CableCARD capability and cable seems necessary to pick up a certain wild animal. All I have to say is good luck to TIVO. They're gonna need it to convince people to pay $500 for lifetime service.


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## BryanSD (Aug 16, 2015)

tapokata said:


> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but there's no issue with using MoCA and in-band OTA TV on the same cable with a non-amplified splitter. That's been my configuration since I purchased my first Bolt. I have a three way MoCA rated splitter in my coax plant, with a POE filter on the input from the 66' antenna downlead. The 50'+ drops connect to two OTA configured non-VOX Bolts and a TiVO Bridge at my router. The MoCA power levels are at minimum (-27dBM) and the PHY rates are all over 640Mbps, in any node direction. There is very little difference in signal strength or SNR reported by the Bolts, whether cabled directly to the antenna, or through the splitter. There is some difference in sensitivity between the Bolt tuner, and what you might find in some televisions (ie, the Bolt appears to have it's challenges in maintaining a signal lock in multi-path signal conditions, compared to some TV's) but that's not a MoCA configuration issue.
> 
> View attachment 36826


I have a similar setup but found that I needed an amplifier. However in my case it's one Bolt and two Minis. I wonder if two Bolts on the network make a difference? Either way, the reason I dropped my Roamio for OTA purposes and replaced it with Bolt was because the Bolt had built-in MOCA. It's a mistake to not have MOCA because current TiVO users wanting to upgrade to the BOLT line and cut the chord at the same time...are going to be for a rude awakening that their "TiVO Network" isn't compatible with the Bolt OTA.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> If it's anything like the Roamio OTA it's just a Bolt with the CableCARD bracket removed. Wouldn't be that hard to manufacture relatively quickly. Maybe not in a week, but perhaps they had some advanced notice that Amazon was working on an OTA DVR. Or maybe they finally ran out of stock of Roamio OTAs and decided to move to the Bolt platform.


Well and no MOCA which Ted indicated saved money in components. I think this would have to have been in the plans all along and makes some sense in retiring the Roamio with the shift to another company handling the hardware production and retail distribution.

Scott


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Kennyr35 said:


> On Amazon, is the $249 price including the all in plan or is it $249 for the box plus another $249 for the service fee?
> 
> After doing some research, looks like it is $500 total which is pretty steep considering the original Roamio's were $399 including the service plan...I like the upgrades but that is a bit too high to consider upgrading at this time.


Yep--it's an additional $100 in moving from the Roamio OTA platform to the Bolt OTA platform. (Or, one could pick up a Roamio OTA refurb. currently available at the TiVo online store/outlet section, while they last--$350).


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NEOhero said:


> First time poster and a TIVO newbie:
> 
> I honestly hope that it has a better tuner than the OG Bolt I currently have. Even then, I'll still hold on to my Bolt since it has CableCARD capability and cable seems necessary to pick up a certain wild animal. All I have to say is good luck to TIVO. They're gonna need it to convince people to pay $500 for lifetime service.


Well, the Bolt OTA still is a (deal) compared to a Bolt non-OTA, where the All-In subscription alone is $550.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BryanSD said:


> I have a similar setup but found that I needed an amplifier. However in my case it's one Bolt and two Minis. I wonder if two Bolts on the network make a difference? Either way, the reason I dropped my Roamio for OTA purposes and replaced it with Bolt was because the Bolt had built-in MOCA. It's a mistake to not have MOCA because current TiVO users wanting to upgrade to the BOLT line and cut the chord at the same time...are going to be for a rude awakening that their "TiVO Network" isn't compatible with the Bolt OTA.


It is, though, once you add in an external MoCA adapter, right? But at a further cost (which can be not inconsequential, depending on the adapter).


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## fredi (Apr 1, 2017)

I thought removing MOCA from the Bolt OTA was silly, but after TiVoTed's explanation I realized that's exactly how I have my 4 tuner Bolt connected, however for OTA I rely on the TiVoHD because it has a better tuner. They are both connected to a Winegard SensarPro TV Signal Strength Meter which also has an amplifier and I didn't want to add another splitter.


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

HoTatII said:


> Yes ..
> And to be clear, especially for the MoCA 2.0 adapters which are still quite expensive new at $100-200 ea. ...


The MM1000 is MoCA 2.0 (bonded) for $60.


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

Have a Roamio with a Stream that I'm considering replacing with a Bolt OTA. Couple of questions.. Some of them might be stupid to some, but I've never owned a Bolt before, so it's new territory for me...

1) The specs on the website show an external eSATA port. The TiVo website itself doesn't list any external drives available, so what is the current model that is recommended for external drive usage? I'm aware that internal is likely still an option, but I'm one of those people that doesn't like opening the box - my panic level over possibly bricking the thing will stop me from doing that.

2) I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, but the functionality provided by the TiVo Stream device is built into the Bolt OTA, isn't it? 

3) There any plans to offer models of this with more than 1TB? I currently have 3TB in my Roamio, and would prefer to keep that level, but can live without it (also why I asked about external).

4) Will the apps in the thing provide 4K video (Youtube, Vudu, etc...)?

5) Any recommendations on where to sell off my old box? Not looking to sell it in this thread, as I'm sure that's a rules violation, but is it just eBay more or less?


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## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Seems like a decent deal. $250 for the box which is similar to the 1TB Vox which is $300? Leaving out the Moca not great since only saved $5 but Ted says that wouid degrade performance. 6.99 a month much better than current 19.99 a month for other Tivos (I read they increased it?). And 250 all in better than 550 for the cable/OTA versions. Other than leaving out the Moca I'd say pretty good compared to other retail priced current Tivos. I'm still sticking with my Roamios though since I like 3.5" drives and the ability to keep backups, ie not lose recordings everytime I do a drive swap.


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## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

Joe Siegler said:


> 5) Any recommendations on where to sell off my old box? Not looking to sell it in this thread, as I'm sure that's a rules violation, but is it just eBay more or less?


There is an forum here for ebay listings which also has a regular buy/sell sub forum for non ebay deals.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'll be saving $130/mo on my cable bill, so this will pay for itself very quickly, including lifetime service.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Scooby Doo said:


> _"Finally, in order to use an antenna and MOCA on the same wire, you by definition have to use a splitter in order to route the signal to other TV locations via Coax."_
> 
> I see no way to do it so yes I would be interested in an example.* Also, forgive my ignorance but what is TCF?*


As Madge would say (for those of us old enough to remember): "You're soaking in it."


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> As suggested above, please post your setup details and issue as a separate thread over in the Help subforum


I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were the monitor of this forum. You may want to identify yourself in your signature.
I don't need any help. It's obvious that Tivo_Ted's comment is correct and that your's is not. I already know that your "answer" will involve some combination of moving the router/wifi/powerline/pulling new wire; none of these invalidate his comment. I don't need to move to another forum just to hear you self defense. Have a nice day!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I had hoped to pick one of these up today, but it looks like Best Buy won't have them in stock until October 7th. Amazon is supposed to have them today, but I don't see it listed. I only see it on TiVo.com, and there doesn't seem to be an option for expedited shipping.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Scooby Doo said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were the monitor of this forum. You may want to identify yourself in your signature.
> I don't need any help. It's obvious that Tivo_Ted's comment is correct and that your's is not. I already know that your "answer" will involve some combination of moving the router/wifi/powerline/pulling new wire; none of these invalidate his comment. I don't need to move to another forum just to hear you self defense. Have a nice day!


Just wow.

Aside from being unnecessarily abusive, the slightest skim of my posting history would also demonstrate the response to be extraordinarily ignorant.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

PJO1966 said:


> I had hoped to pick one of these up today, but it looks like Best Buy won't have them in stock until October 7th. Amazon is supposed to have them today, but I don't see it listed. I only see it on TiVo.com, and there doesn't seem to be an option for expedited shipping.


The Amazon listing says they're "temporarily out of stock" and the Weeknees listing on Amazon says "Due in stock October 10": Amazon.com: Buying Choices: TiVo Bolt for Antenna 1 TB DVR & Streaming Player with 4K and Voice Remote - Antenna Only


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The Amazon listing says they're "temporarily out of stock" and the Weeknees listing on Amazon says "Due in stock October 10": Amazon.com: Buying Choices: TiVo Bolt for Antenna 1 TB DVR & Streaming Player with 4K and Voice Remote - Antenna Only


Thanks.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The Amazon listing says they're "temporarily out of stock" and the Weeknees listing on Amazon says "Due in stock October 10": Amazon.com: Buying Choices: TiVo Bolt for Antenna 1 TB DVR & Streaming Player with 4K and Voice Remote - Antenna Only


I would avoid buying from Amazon. To many issues.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Scooby Doo said:


> I don't need any help.


I seemingly misinterpreted much of your earlier posts as indicating otherwise...


Scooby Doo said:


> I may be just dumb, but I've had big problems trying to use MOCA with a Roamio OTA and 2 Minis. I end up with three splitter between the antenna and the Roamio and the PQ is poor. I'm intrigued by the suggestion of using an external MOCA network but don't know what it means or how to configure it.





Scooby Doo said:


> I see no way to do it so yes I would be interested in an example.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Scooby Doo said:


> I don't need any help. It's obvious that Tivo_Ted's comment is correct and that your's is not


I guess my splitter-less Moca-OTA-Roamio-Mini system that I've been running for years is impossible then. Good to know.

All kaufman was trying to do was keep the thread on topic in the most polite way possible. In spite of that, we get in to bickering and personal attacks as always about unimportant details and long dead subjects like DECA.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

mdavej said:


> I guess my splitter-less Moca-OTA-Roamio-Mini system that I've been running for years is impossible then. Good to know.
> 
> All kaufman was trying to do was keep the thread on topic in the most polite way possible. In spite of that, we get in to bickering and personal attacks as always about unimportant details and long dead subjects like DECA.


(Just to differ minorly (I wish that this forum's software had a "sidebar" comment feature): onboard MoCA capability legitimately was mentioned here as something dropped from the Bolt OTA--given that, it seems totally helpful for the alternatives to that absence to be raised here, including the DECA possibility, so that people who might be interested in the Bolt OTA but are concerned about the absence of onboard MoCA, and/or the cost of later adding an external device (MoCA or DECA), can see that there are some easy alternatives. This was a concern that I had earlier when I originally purchased an onboard MoCA-less Roamio: could I add the functionality later, and at what cost.)


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

If anyone hears of a way to pick one of these up this weekend, please post it here.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> I seemingly misinterpreted much of your earlier posts as indicating otherwise...


I think you may be confusing humility and ignorance. But thank you (genuinely) for offering to help.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> Aside from being unnecessarily abusive


I'm sorry you found my comment abusive


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

Mikeguy said:


> (Just to differ minorly (I wish that this forum's software had a "sidebar" comment feature): onboard MoCA capability legitimately was mentioned here as something dropped from the Bolt OTA--given that, it seems totally helpful for the alternatives to that absence to be raised here, including the DECA possibility, so that people who might be interested in the Bolt OTA but are concerned about the absence of onboard MoCA, and/or the cost of later adding an external device (MoCA or DECA), can see that there are some easy alternatives. This was a concern that I had earlier when I originally purchased an onboard MoCA-less Roamio: could I add the functionality later, and at what cost.)


To simplify the decision process:

DECA operating frequency range: 400-650 MHz
CableTV operating frequency range: 54-546 MHz
Over The Air operating UHF frequency range: 471-695 MHz (605 MHz post FCC-repack)
MoCA 2.0 Extended D band operating frequency range: 1125-1650 MHz

As DECA overlaps the entire OTA frequency band, and part of the CATV band, it may not be the best choice if the intent is to carry antenna or CATV traffic on the same cable carrying DECA traffic. This is the same reason why it's not advisable to put CATV and OTA signals on the same wire.


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## Aersofire (Sep 28, 2018)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Roamio OTA sort of removed the OTA-only pricing issue by only providing all-in service.
> 
> Considering the lower service prices on the Bolt OTA Vox, would Tivo do anything for existing Bolt customers using OTA? Guessing not, but have to ask. Thanks for visiting us.


Yes, this is key - I have a Bolt operating in OTA only mode - I am now paying 2.14X for the exact same service as Bolt OTA. *Will Tivo allow other Bolts to have OTA only service fees if they are only using OTA? *


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> It is, though, once you add in an external MoCA adapter, right? But at a further cost (which can be not inconsequential, depending on the adapter).


But I'd question the need for MoCA in this device, you can just as easily use ethernet in a lot of cases, we're talking niche use of niche product.
I get why some power users at TCF would like it, but I can tell they way they're selling it is antenna hooked to Tivo, then Tivo feeds the minis in the house, they don't want to get involved in anything more complicated.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

mdavej said:


> I guess my splitter-less Moca-OTA-Roamio-Mini system that I've been running for years is impossible then


I don't think anyone has ever claimed running a splitter-less system is impossible. The issue was this statement by Tivo_Ted:
"_Finally, in order to use an antenna and MOCA on the same wire, you by definition have to use a splitter in order to route the signal to other TV locations via Coax_."
I may be being picky, but I don't think that's quite the same thing. But I really don't think having a debate about it would be welcome either!


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> (Just to differ minorly (I wish that this forum's software had a "sidebar" comment feature): onboard MoCA capability legitimately was mentioned here as something dropped from the Bolt OTA--given that, it seems totally helpful for the alternatives to that absence to be raised here, including the DECA possibility, so that people who might be interested in the Bolt OTA but are concerned about the absence of onboard MoCA, and/or the cost of later adding an external device (MoCA or DECA), can see that there are some easy alternatives. This was a concern that I had earlier when I originally purchased an onboard MoCA-less Roamio: could I add the functionality later, and at what cost.)


Sure, but kaufman said, "let's talk about Moca and DECA in a different thread", a perfectly reasonable request. This thread is not the place to troubleshoot one specific case of Moca issues or rehash the differences between Moca and DECA beyond post #115.

When someone posts, "Moca has never worked for me" on TCF, that's equivalent to an engraved invitation to fix it, not to commiserate about how terrible Moca is.


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

krkaufman said:


> Can't argue with market research, but ouch, I'd have hoped savings would be *much* greater than just $5 given the cost of standalone MoCA adapters.


If it saves TiVo $5 in production costs, that could easily translate to around $25 in retail pricing. So the unit would have probably cost about $25 more if MoCA were incorporated.

craigr


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Scooby Doo said:


> I don't think anyone has ever claimed running a splitter-less system is impossible.


You did. This is a direct quote from you:


> It's obvious that Tivo_Ted's comment is correct and that your's is not.


Ted being correct means splitter is required. Ted being incorrect means splitter is NOT required.
Ted is incorrect. I have a Moca system in one house that uses only diplexers, no splitters.

I also disagree that Moca + OTA adds too much complexity. I'd argue that building a multi-room system without Moca is more complex than one with Moca considering how hard it is to run ethernet cables through existing walls and multiple floors. I'd love to have the option to buy a Tivo OTA with Moca included for just $5 more.


----------



## BryanSD (Aug 16, 2015)

tapokata said:


> To simplify the decision process:
> 
> DECA operating frequency range: 400-650 MHz
> CableTV operating frequency range: 54-546 MHz
> ...


That's a good point with regards to the frequency overlap....something I didn't know and better explains why TiVO may not want to include MOCA for what is intended to be an OTA only device. However, there are a lot of us OTA only folks using MOCA for years so it seems to be a step back (although my house is pretty well wired for ethernet too). Is there anywhere in the manual or TiVO that recommends not using MOCA when utilizing OTA?


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## BryanSD (Aug 16, 2015)

dianebrat said:


> But I'd question the need for MoCA in this device, you can just as easily use ethernet in a lot of cases, we're talking niche use of niche product.
> I get why some power users at TCF would like it, but I can tell they way they're selling it is antenna hooked to Tivo, then Tivo feeds the minis in the house, they don't want to get involved in anything more complicated.


See, I disagree because TiVO is intending this to be sold to chord cutters that simply want to swap out their current MOCA-enabled cable network with a TiVO OTA. It should be easy-peasy to replace that rented DVR with a TiVO Bolt OTA and those rented cable boxes with TiVO Minis on the home owners current network. However, by not providing an option for MOCA...you're basically requiring the folks to wire their rooms for Ethernet. No MOCA option on the Bolt OTA as well as no Wi-FI for the Minis really creates hurdles from those wishing to cut the chord to choose TiVO over some of the newer competitors. TiVO's intentions to please chord cutters is all well and good, but the TiVO Bolt OTA may be missing it's mark.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> But I'd question the need for MoCA in this device, you can just as easily use ethernet in a lot of cases, we're talking niche use of niche product.
> I get why some power users at TCF would like it, but I can tell they way they're selling it is antenna hooked to Tivo, then Tivo feeds the minis in the house, they don't want to get involved in anything more complicated.


Diane, I wish you had designed my house--I'm just happy that I have_ any_ type of wiring (like, electrical outlets) in some rooms.  


mdavej said:


> Sure, but kaufman said, "let's talk about Moca and DECA in a different thread", a perfectly reasonable request. This thread is not the place to troubleshoot one specific case of Moca issues or rehash the differences between Moca and DECA beyond post #115.
> 
> When someone posts, "Moca has never worked for me" on TCF, that's equivalent to an engraved invitation to fix it, not to commiserate about how terrible Moca is.


Absolutely. I just thought that it's helpful for people to know that there are alternatives for an onboard MoCA-less Bolt OTA. Specific case issues by people to be posted separately. And @tapokata does a great job of pointing out the DECA consideration, for purposes of the Bolt OTA buying decision. 'Nuff said.


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## BryanSD (Aug 16, 2015)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Yes, we are fixing that. It will say this:
> 
> TiVo OTA service subscription is required. Options include a monthly service plan at 6.99/mo. with a 1-Year commitment, or an Annual service plan at 69.99/year. There is also a one-time payment plan (All-In Plan) available for $249.99


Ted, do you know if a OTA-only service subscription will be offered for current TiVO Bolt users that are only using the Bolts for OTA purposes? I've owned the OTA/Cablecard versions of the Roamio and Bolt...but have never had the intention of hooking it to cable. In fact the TiVO Roamio was my escape from DirectTV and the Cable company...it's a great chord cutting device except for the high monthly subscriptions.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

BryanSD said:


> That's a good point with regards to the frequency overlap....something I didn't know and better explains why TiVO may not want to include MOCA for what is intended to be an OTA only device.


Except that, MoCA and OTA signals don't overlap--it's DECA and OTA that overlap.


> However, there are a lot of us OTA only folks using MOCA for years so it seems to be a step back (although my house is pretty well wired for ethernet too). Is there anywhere in the manual or TiVO that recommends not using MOCA when utilizing OTA?


I'm assuming that MoCA is the same with the Bolt OTA as with the Roamio OTA--that using an external MoCA adapter with the box is fine. But I'm sure that people will correct that if that's wrong or if it turns out that TiVo has done something different with the Bolt OTA to prevent external MoCA use.


BryanSD said:


> See, I disagree because TiVO is intending this to be sold to chord cutters that simply want to swap out their current MOCA-enabled cable network with a TiVO OTA. It should be easy-peasy to replace that rented DVR with a TiVO Bolt OTA and those rented cable boxes with TiVO Minis on the home owners current network. However, by not providing an option for MOCA...you're basically requiring the folks to wire their rooms for Ethernet. No MOCA option on the Bolt OTA as well as no Wi-FI for the Minis really creates hurdles from those wishing to cut the chord to choose TiVO over some of the newer competitors. TiVO's intentions to please chord cutters is all well and good, but the TiVO Bolt OTA may be missing it's mark.


You have a point about keeping things easy and making it possible to just swap out a cable box for a Bolt OTA with onboard MoCA. At the same time, as Ted noted, there's the associated manf. cost issue--I remember when there was earlier discussion of TiVo's elimination on the Roamio (Basic) of separate video ports and use of a unified port, some people noting the cost savings to TiVo of this.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Diane, I wish you had designed my house--I'm just happy that I have_ any_ type of wiring (like, electrical outlets) in some rooms.


110 year old house I bought in 2015 that had knob and tube on the 2nd floor and no coax up there either. I had to think long and hard how I was going to deal with technology here and I got to make choices like where outlets went, (at $6k I should be able to choose where I want outlets!) so in doing that made a few core choices like powerline to the 2 2nd floor devices that needed a hardwire, and then a media center on the first floor with the Tivo's and other devices all powered by MoCA then bridged to RJ45. At the time my wireless solution is a AP only router in the middle of the house that I may replace with a mesh system since they're now available.

But back to the subject at hand, I don't blame Tivo for cutting everything they can out of this box to get the price down and not steal away regular Bolt users, those get them more money, so MoCA, cable and OTA are valuable enough to keep the units apart.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

HerronScott said:


> Well and no MOCA which Ted indicated saved money in components. I think this would have to have been in the plans all along and makes some sense in retiring the Roamio with the shift to another company handling the hardware production and retail distribution.
> 
> Scott


It kind of leaked when the Bolt was first released, but then never came to fruition. So I'm betting the engineering was done on it a long time ago. It just seems like quite the coincidence that it's finally being released, years later, just a week after Amazon announced it's releasing a competing product.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

mdavej said:


> You did.


If you say so.


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## Intheswamp (Nov 15, 2017)

No, the butler did it...


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Just saw the Discovery Bar on my Roamio display the new Bolt OTA promo. Something still works.


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## LarryAtHome (Feb 18, 2008)

Too bad they did not mount it in a different case and use 3.5" hard drives. I like the way the 3.5" drives use the rubber mounting to reduce noise and vibration. The 3.5" hard drives are also cheaper and available in larger capacities. Very few options for the 2.5" hard drives. I have a BOLT and use it for OTA only. I Really like it. The not having to fiddle with software to make it work is the big plus for TiVo. Having used Media Portal and usb tuners in the past, I was constantly fixing why something did not record, or no EPG and why the computer did not wake up to record the program. I even had a Tablo that I purchased refurbished from them. It said no refunds when I purchased it from them, but just under a year from having it and having to email them of the box not working almost every 2 to 3 weeks, they decided to refund my money. I did not ask them for a refund, but did ask for an exchange. Once you get fed up enough of the others, you buy a TiVo.


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

I suspect that with the manufacturing demise of the Roamio OTA, we'll see the same bifurcation of Bolt models as was previously found on the Roamio. The non-OTA Bolts will have larger drives, increased number of tuners, CableCard and MoCA support built in. The OTA models will be the little-sibling of the line.

For many folks with no experience with MoCA, they won't know what they're missing. MoCA is a very robust technology that allows one to leverage the existing coax plant in use. That said, it's not a primary marketing vector for TiVo. IMO, they'll continue to support it as long as their cable company customers / competitors offer MoCA based solutions.

External adapters, for now, will still be on the market for those need of a MoCA solution. I'd like to see TiVo invest some of the MoCa and CC hardware savings into improvements in the tuner sensitivity and performance, as lamented by many OTA users here on TCF.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Bolt or Roamio is OK as long as there's an OTA model. The cord cutter customer base will only increase.

But, judging from the TV schedules this premier week four tuners ain't enough.
The broadcasters are scheduling all their "must see" programs the same nights at the same time.

So, with the Bolt OTA losing some features as a cost cutting measure they should have made it 6 tuners.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> So, with the Bolt OTA losing some features as a cost cutting measure they should have made it 6 tuners.


I believe Ted or someone else has mentioned here on the TCF that there are no 6 tuner chips available for OTA. Four is the max.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

pfiagra said:


> I believe Ted or someone else has mentioned here on the TCF that there are no 6 tuner chips available for OTA. Four is the max.


OK... two four tuner chips. 8 tuners are better than four or six.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> OK... two four tuner chips. 8 tuners are better than four or six.


That would increase the price significantly, and OTA-only users are already highly price sensitive. If you're one of the rare OTA-only users who needs more than 4 tuners and isn't concerned about price, then you can just buy two Bolts.


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

tarheelblue32 said:


> That would increase the price significantly, and OTA-only users are already highly price sensitive. If you're one of the rare OTA-only users who needs more than 4 tuners and isn't concerned about price, then you can just buy two Bolts.


That's what we ended up doing (although both purchases were on the liftetime upgrades on two older HD units). The OTA configured Bolt and Mini were just fine via MoCA, but the bride grumbled about my use of one tuner for the Mini... so, problem solved after the last Summer Breeze sale. Plus, we doubled the storage space...


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> That would increase the price significantly, and OTA-only users are already highly price sensitive. If you're one of the rare OTA-only users who needs more than 4 tuners and isn't concerned about price, then you can just buy two Bolts.


OTA only users are not rare.

Many of us are OTA only because we are concerned about price.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> OTA only users are not rare.
> 
> Many of us are OTA only because we are concerned about price.


I didn't say that "OTA only users are rare". What I said was that "OTA-only users who need more than 4 tuners and aren't concerned about price" are rare.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> OTA only users are not rare.
> 
> Many of us are OTA only because we are concerned about price.


I think he meant that it was rare for an OTA user to need more than four tuners, because they have far fewer channels to conflict with each other. Although I'm not sure he's correct, the only conflicts I ever have to resolve are from the broadcast channels; cable and premium programs repeat several times so those conflicts usually may be ignored.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> I think he meant that it was rare for an OTA user to need more than four tuners, because they have far fewer channels to conflict with each other. Although I'm not sure he's correct, the only conflicts I ever have to resolve are from the broadcast channels; cable and premium programs repeat several times so those conflicts usually may be ignored.


Yes, and I also said "and isn't concerned about price".


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

ej42137 said:


> I think he meant that it was rare for an OTA user to need more than four tuners, because they have far fewer channels to conflict with each other. Although I'm not sure he's correct, the only conflicts I ever have to resolve are from the broadcast channels; cable and premium programs repeat several times so those conflicts usually may be ignored.


I'm finding more conflicts with programs on OTA channels this premier season and that's why I asked for more tuners.

The additional cost of a second four tuner chip can't be more than the cost savings of the features TiVo eliminated in the new Bolt OTA so charge the price of a Bolt and give us 8 tuners.

As I said before... most OTA only users ARE concerned about price and that's why they are OTA only users.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> I didn't say that "OTA only users are rare". What I said was that "OTA-only users who need more than 4 tuners and aren't concerned about price" are rare.


Yes. I'm a little surprised that they're coming out with the Bolt OTA at the stated price point, given the cheaper competing options. With lifetime service, it's $500. Is the market for this device big enough to support it?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> I'm finding more conflicts with programs on OTA channels this premier season and that's why I asked for more tuners.
> 
> The additional cost of a second four tuner chip can't be more than the cost savings of the features TiVo eliminated in the new Bolt OTA so charge the price of a Bolt and give us 8 tuners.
> 
> As I said before... most OTA only users ARE concerned about price and that's why they are OTA only users.


I'm not sure how much more the hardware itself would cost with 8 tuners, but I doubt it's as simple as just dropping in 4 more tuners. They would probably have to significantly redesign the hardware. But it's not just the hardware. The current TiVo software is only designed to handle 6 tuners. They would have to rewrite the software and redesign the UI. It wouldn't be simple or cheap to do.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Yes, and I also said "and isn't concerned about price".


I think "OTA user" usually means he's concerned about the price. Even if it's because he lives where cable isn't available, the reason he's living where cable isn't available probably makes him concerned about the price.


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## moedaman (Aug 21, 2012)

If four tuners aren't enough for the fall premiers, sub to Hulu for a month or two, make sure your CBS shows are recorded and if you watch The CW, use their app. Let's be honest. Most new shows suck and won't be around for much more than half a season anyway. After a couple of months, four tuners will be more than enough.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

just4tivo said:


> The additional cost of a second four tuner chip can't be more than the cost savings of the features TiVo eliminated in the new Bolt OTA so charge the price of a Bolt and give us 8 tuners.


Bogus.
This would require a completely new board, quite a large expense. Do you know the costs of pricing for a tuner chip VS moca?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I was dubious about paying for lifetime service. I did the math and saw that I would need to have the Bolt OTA for three years for it to make sense. I looked up how long I've had the Roamio and was supprised to see I've had it for five years. Couple that with the fact that I'll be saving $130/mo by unplugging from Spectrum and it's a no brainier. I'll also be able to sell the Roamio, one TiVo Mini, and either an Apple TV or a Nvidia Shield (depending on which one I decide to keep). 

The only other variable is the results from an antenna, but I think I'll be ok with that. 

Now if I could only get my hands on one.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

just4tivo said:


> I'm finding more conflicts with programs on *OTA channels* this premier season and that's why I asked for more tuners.


What OTA channels are you watching? How many viewers? I rarely have more than 4 network shows (which I assume are the bulk of OTA channels content) recording at once. Most of my conflicts are from padding cable channels. Cable shows repeat frequently so that is not a concern.

And I assume the cable channels are not OTA. I was in a store when an elderly couple kept asking for the antenna that will get HBO and Showtime for free. It was a fun conversation to overhear.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

PJO1966 said:


> The only other variable is the results from an antenna, but I think I'll be ok with that.
> Now if I could only get my hands on one.


If you decide you commit, I strongly suggest you find a way to connect some kind of antenna to your television and run a channel scan. It will not be the same as the Bolt for reasons unrelated to this thread, but you will have some idea of the differences between cable and OTA. And then there's the antenna.

There are ways to get your hands on a Bolt quickly. A Bolt OTA is just a Bolt minus the cable card bracket in areas that matter.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> The only other variable is the results from an antenna, but I think I'll be ok with that.





JoeKustra said:


> If you decide you commit, I strongly suggest you find a way to connect some kind of antenna to your television and run a channel scan. It will not be the same as the Bolt for reasons unrelated to this thread, but you will have some idea of the differences between cable and OTA. And then there's the antenna.


A good starting point down the OTA path would be a visit to any of the various websites estimating OTA channel reception for a given location. See:

antennaweb.org
TVFool.com
TV Antenna Selection Guide


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ej42137 said:


> I think "OTA user" usually means he's concerned about the price. *Even if it's because he lives where cable isn't available, the reason he's living where cable isn't available probably makes him concerned about the price.*


Whaaat?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> The only other variable is the results from an antenna, but I think I'll be ok with that.
> 
> Now if I could only get my hands on one.


*Fry's Electronics |* (antenna search results)
​


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

krkaufman said:


> A good starting point down the OTA path would be a visit to any of the various websites estimating OTA channel reception for a given location. See:


While there are many variables with OTA, I'm guessing Los Angeles should have decent OTA. I wish I lived there.


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## frede (Jan 17, 2003)

tapokata said:


> To simplify the decision process:
> 
> DECA operating frequency range: 400-650 MHz
> CableTV operating frequency range: 54-546 MHz
> ...


Many digital cable plants operate up to 1GHz

If instead of using a splitter I connect either the DECA or MOCA adapter to the same ethernet switch the Bolt OTA is on and send the signal to the Mini over coax, there should be no cable or OTA signals on that coax so it doesn't matter. However with DECA I would need another DECA adapter to convert it back to ethernet, but at under $10 for a set it wouldn't really mater.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> If you decide you commit, I strongly suggest you find a way to connect some kind of antenna to your television and run a channel scan. It will not be the same as the Bolt for reasons unrelated to this thread, but you will have some idea of the differences between cable and OTA. And then there's the antenna.
> 
> There are ways to get your hands on a Bolt quickly. A Bolt OTA is just a Bolt minus the cable card bracket in areas that matter.


I did all the antenna research last year but didn't move forward because I couldn't get CBS at my location. Now I have CBS All Access, so it doesn't matter.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> *Fry's Electronics |* (antenna search results)
> ​


I meant getting my hands on a new Bolt OTA. They don't seem to be available yet.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

JoeKustra said:


> While there are many variables with OTA, I'm guessing Los Angeles should have decent OTA. I wish I lived there.


It'll be interesting. I expect there'd be a large number of stations, but maybe in several directions ... and reception may be tricky if they're nestled against a hill.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> I had hoped to pick one of these up today, but it looks like Best Buy won't have them in stock until October 7th. Amazon is supposed to have them today, but I don't see it listed. I only see it on TiVo.com, and there doesn't seem to be an option for expedited shipping.





PJO1966 said:


> I meant getting my hands on a new Bolt OTA. They don't seem to be available yet.


At the TiVo.com website just now, the shop shows them as available and with various options in the shopping cart for expedited shipping (1-day, now, for delivery on Tuesday); by default, it's set to free shipping and the other options are greyed out. I didn't go thru the ordering process to see if you get a choice between the shipping options there. Another possibility would be, call the TiVo order line and try with them.​


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

Antenna direction, local topography, and (if the antenna is indoors) building construction all play a large role in reception quality.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

frede said:


> However with DECA I would need another DECA adapter to convert it back to ethernet, but at under $10 for a set it wouldn't really mater.


Unless the DECA gear and dedicated coax is all already in place, DECA just doesn't make sense as long as the WCB3000N adapters remain available at recent pricing, $10-13 per.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FKTMWDE/


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tapokata said:


> Antenna direction, local topography, and (if the antenna is indoors) *building construction *all play a large role in reception quality.


Somewhat "humorously," my OTA reception (with an indoor antenna) had settled down after a week and improved to what it was before, as I posted above--but then this morning, it degraded again. Upon some experimenting just now, apparently, the culprit: I had closed the (fairly simple) window near the antenna overnight, given the cooler, Fall weather--window open, reception is fine, window closed, reception degrades.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

JoeKustra said:


> While there are many variables with OTA, I'm guessing Los Angeles should have decent OTA. I wish I lived there.


It is where I am here in So. LA ....

In fact too much so ...

And you wouldn't believe the complex network of attenuators, UVSJs, and an old Radio Shack remote control A-B coax switch, I've had to improvise to prevent some of the full power TV stations 20 mi. to the NE on Mt. Wilson/Mt. Harvard, from overloading my Roamio OTAs sensitive tuners resulting in A/V breakup on one hand.

Yet allow for the reception of low power TV stations like "CD" ones at the same time.

Admittedly been disappointed in the inconsistancy of the performance of Roamio's agc circuit over the years to handle the "very" strong verses moderate signal conditions in my area. Whereas every other ATSC tuner on other devices in the home appear to have no trouble with it.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> Unless the DECA gear and dedicated coax is all already in place, DECA just doesn't make sense as long as the WCB3000N adapters remain available at recent pricing, $10-13 per.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FKTMWDE/


Yeah, but: at current pricing, the DECA route via Amazon.com for a pair of adapters + accessories is $19.98; a pair of the WCB3000N adapters etc. would run $23.96. That's almost a $4 difference!  (Kidding--kidding--kidding!)


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> Yeah, but: at current pricing, the DECA route via Amazon.com for a pair of adapters + accessories is $19.98; a pair of the WCB3000N adapters etc. would run $23.96.


Why you'd be buying an extra WCB3000N isn't clear.


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

Mikeguy said:


> Somewhat "humorously," my OTA reception (with an indoor antenna) had settled down after a week and improved to what it was before, as I posted above--but then this morning, it degraded again. Upon some experimenting just now, apparently, the culprit: I had closed the (fairly simple) window near the antenna overnight, given the cooler, Fall weather--window open, reception is fine, window closed, reception degrades.


One more proof of the adage that "antennas love fresh air."  At least you can use an indoor antenna! I'm in a stucco exterior, lathe and plaster interior house with no windows near facing the LOS for the antenna. It's like living in a Faraday cage. I had to go with a roof mounted antenna to get any kind of reliable reception, and I'm 20 miles from the transmitter tower farm.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

tapokata said:


> To simplify the decision process:
> 
> DECA operating frequency range: 400-650 MHz
> CableTV operating frequency range: 54-546 MHz
> ...


Just to note ...

The DIRECTV DECA adapters use the MoCA ver. 1.1 on the "E" band which operates over five 50 MHz wide overlapping channels between 475-625 MHz.

The MoCA ver. 2.0 for DIRECTV operates over nine 100 MHz overlapping channels (with bonding options) in an expanded E band of 400-700 MHz.

But there are no external DECA adapters which support MoCA 2.0. So far only the internal adapter integrated into the HS-17 Genie 2 "headless" home server and C61K 4K mini client have this capability.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## frede (Jan 17, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> Unless the DECA gear and dedicated coax is all already in place, DECA just doesn't make sense as long as the WCB3000N adapters remain available at recent pricing, $10-13 per.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FKTMWDE/


I already have several TiVo Bridges but those look very interesting. I might just pick one up to play with.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

frede said:


> I already have several TiVo Bridges but those look very interesting. I might just pick one up to play with.


Just be aware that they're MoCA 1.1, rather than the standard MoCA 2.0 of the TiVo Bridge.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Order placed. I'll have it on Tuesday. I'll be the test subject.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> Why you'd be buying an extra WCB3000N isn't clear.


Ah, you're right, I forgot, you can't read my mind and setup.  For 2 separate TiVo boxes needing them, in a specific case, I think. (But not meaning to turn this into a setup study.)
​


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> For 2 separate TiVo boxes needing them


Then aren't you a DECA short?


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

krkaufman said:


> Then aren't you a DECA short?


Unless it's a setup similar to "frede" back in post #156 ...

Yes, a third DECA is needed for the internet connection ...

Just like my two Roamio OTAs and Mini are each connected to their own separate DECAs, which in turn reach the internet through another main DECA (aka, a "Cinema Connection Kit" or "CCK") as all the DIRECTV receivers use.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

I see this as bad news for OTA users. I've helped over a dozen families "cut the cord" and nearly all of those families included a TiVo Roamio OTA in their setup. It was a hard sell to these families that purchasing a $399 Roamio was worth the investment. And truth is many of them got a Roamio at a discount price as well. At almost $500 the Bolt OTA will be a non-starter (and having another monthly fee is an even harder sell, although the lower priced subscription is a step in the right direction). 

The second issue: In every instance (about 4 installs) where I tried using a Bolt I had significant reception issues. Eventually we switched to a Roamio OTA and the reception issues went away. I know there are differing experiences on Bolt vs Roamio reception but at least in the market I'm in the Bolt seems a poor choice for OTA use. At this point I'm not sure what I will recommend to people. I've tried Tablo, and Air TV with some success but TiCo has always give. The best user experience. I suspect I'll give the new Amazon device a try.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

krkaufman said:


> It'll be interesting. I expect there'd be a large number of stations, but maybe in several directions ... and reception may be tricky if they're nestled against a hill.


Actually, virtually every channel of the least bit of interest have their transmitters (including commercial radio transmitters) all atop Mount Wilson or adjacent Mount Harvard in the same general line of eyesight direction. There would be no hope of getting decent OTA signals in Los Angeles if the transmitters were not positioned high atop The 5000 foot mount Wilson/Mount Harvard area. the transmitters are all clustered up there antenna farm fashioned, so Point your antenna in One Direction and you can receive 170 channels. The low powered broadcast stations are a different matter because they're at low-power and the content is not entertainment programming, so who cares!

Over the years, a few of the remaining TV stations that were not at Mount Wilson have moved to Mount Wilson/Mount Havard, especially since the digital transition some years ago. Further, the recent repack have resulted in better reception since some channels are now sharing with a broadcaster who has superior signal strength. No transmitters in multi directions (with the exception of crappy content low-powered stations), no rotor motor needed for your OTA. Just point toward Mount Wilson/Mount Harvard, and you're fine.

However in some places, additional height makes a big difference if one is dealing with the First Effect. Additional height of the home OTA is usually the solution to those who may be getting less than desired signal strength. The only Channel that I cannot get in OTA is KVCR, 24 with its transmitter in San Bernardino County (I get that channel through Dish, but I hardly ever watch that channel, so I am not going to go to the trouble of putting up a second OTA just for that one somewhat inconsequential channel), but it's hardly the flagship PBS station, and there are two other LA area PBS stations that can be picked up easily on OTA, and KCET Channel 28 a public TV station but not affiliated with PBS, more than satisfies the desire for PBS and other public TV programming. Any OTA viewer in Los Angeles can certainly live without KVCR.

However there are some people who are just too close to that hill or in a canyon or have a man-made obstruction or may suffer terribly from multipath because ATSC is so awful and ATSC is often the root of problems receiving broadcast channels in the Los Angeles area well enough to view or record, and there can be quite a few of those people who can't get decent OTA. Yes, for them it is CATV or satellite. While cable company DVRs are pretty bad (and there is extreme dissatisfaction with the cable companies in Los Angeles) at least Dish and the Hopper 3 with 16 tuners, Primetime Anytime, picture in picture, bar mode (4 channels displayed on one screen) and the ability to connect a 2 tuner OTA module does provide a good option to TiVo if people cannot get a good OTA signal.

it is fair to say that the Los Angeles area can present some challenges to a great many people trying to receive a good OTA signal. However a great many people in the Los Angeles area can indeed receive good OTA signal. sometimes the biggest impediment to getting any OTA signal at all is simply living in an apartment, of which there are a great many throughout the Los Angeles Southern California area, but then again, there are countless single-detached homes throughout the entire Los Angeles, Southern California area, rather unique for a metropolitan area its size, and that provides the best opportunity to getting the best OTA signal, and the option of cord-cutting that includes OTA broadcast stations.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> While there are many variables with OTA, I'm guessing Los Angeles should have decent OTA. I wish I lived there.


People down in some the valleys get no OTA reception at all. If you're on top of a hill or mountain you'll do OK. Just have to be on the right side of the mountain sometimes.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

TeamPace said:


> I see this as bad news for OTA users. I've helped over a dozen families "cut the cord" and nearly all of those families included a TiVo Roamio OTA in their setup. It was a hard sell to these families that purchasing a $399 Roamio was worth the investment. And truth is many of them got a Roamio at a discount price as well. At almost $500 the Bolt OTA will be a non-starter (and having another monthly fee is an even harder sell, although the lower priced subscription is a step in the right direction).
> 
> The second issue: In every instance (about 4 installs) where I tried using a Bolt I had significant reception issues. Eventually we switched to a Roamio OTA and the reception issues went away. I know there are differing experiences on Bolt vs Roamio reception but at least in the market I'm in the Bolt seems a poor choice for OTA use. At this point I'm not sure what I will recommend to people. I've tried Tablo, and Air TV with some success but TiCo has always give. The best user experience. I suspect I'll give the new Amazon device a try.


I think the problem, besides the cost, is the fact that streaming services that replace the cable channels you lose are now available with local channels and live TV. So for me the only arguments for TiVo are better picture quality with OTA and streaming apps like Netflix and Amazon Prime built in so less input switching but since I'm willing to bet that my LG OLED TV ( cat6 hardwired ) does a better job with those apps it would basically be just for better local channel picture quality with shows I DVR.
Am I missing something? Is the experience worth it? I'm in the 7 day trial with YouTube TV and the picture isn't as good as my antenna but it's better than cable, has unlimited cloud DVR, live TV, can be used on all 3 of my TV's , my phone etc... If they get HGTV, the food Network, animal planet and discovery I think I might finally dump cable


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

Series3Sub said:


> Actually, virtually every channel of the least bit of interest have their transmitters (including commercial radio transmitters) all atop Mount Wilson or adjacent Mount Harvard in the same general line of eyesight direction. There would be no hope of getting decent OTA signals in Los Angeles if the transmitters were not positioned high atop The 5000 foot mount Wilson/Mount Harvard area. the transmitters are all clustered up there antenna farm fashioned, so Point your antenna in One Direction and you can receive 170 channels. The low powered broadcast stations are a different matter because they're at low-power and the content is not entertainment programming, so who cares!
> 
> Over the years, a few of the remaining TV stations that were not at Mount Wilson have moved to Mount Wilson/Mount Havard, especially since the digital transition some years ago. Further, the recent repack have resulted in better reception since some channels are now sharing with a broadcaster who has superior signal strength. No transmitters in multi directions (with the exception of crappy content low-powered stations), no rotor motor needed for your OTA. Just point toward Mount Wilson/Mount Harvard, and you're fine.
> 
> ...


Agree with all you say here with one unfortunately significant exception where you said.



> "The low powered broadcast stations are a different matter because they're at low-power and the content is not entertainment programming, so who cares"


Which may be true except for the problem of Weigel owned KAZA-54 that channel shares on a poor low power Spanish station, KHTV-CD 27. Where its two subchannels 54-1 HD (MeTV) and now recently 54-2 (DECADES) are not receivable by many.

This is not so much a problem with MeTV as it's still duplicated in SD on full power KDOC 56-3. But with DECADES having moved there from former full power KCBS-DT 2-2. Many in this market have lost access to that entertainment network now.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I live in the San Fernando Valley. When we were in a house I had a roof antenna and got great OTA. We're in an apartment now. An indoor antenna is going to be preferred. The last time I tried I had decent results. Our property manager said we can install an antenna on the roof, but until I know how much it will cost to have someone come out to install it, that's off the table. 

For us, we want to stick to TiVo for one reason - the ability to jump over commercials easily. We've tried streaming services and it's just so clunky. We're spoiled.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cldlhd said:


> I think the problem, besides the cost, is the fact that streaming services that replace the cable channels you lose are now available with local channels and live TV. So for me the only arguments for TiVo are better picture quality with OTA and streaming apps like Netflix and Amazon Prime built in so less input switching but since I'm willing to bet that my LG OLED TV ( cat6 hardwired ) does a better job with those apps it would basically be just for better local channel picture quality with shows I DVR.
> Am I missing something? Is the experience worth it? I'm in the 7 day trial with YouTube TV and the picture isn't as good as my antenna but it's better than cable, has unlimited cloud DVR, live TV, can be used on all 3 of my TV's , my phone etc... If they get HGTV, the food Network, animal planet and discovery I think I might finally dump cable


PBS. PBS is 80% of what my TiVo records. Also, local transport controls for CBS and NBC that are chock full of ads and promos.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

cldlhd said:


> I think the problem, besides the cost, is the fact that streaming services that replace the cable channels you lose are now available with local channels and live TV. ...


At least for the PS Vue streaming service (and likely others) there are various restrictions that prevent some of live OTA channels from being streamed. In one example (I know there have been at least three in the last year) of this, my daughter could NOT view the Ms America pageant over PS-Vue. When they tuned that channel on Vue, they just got a blank screen with a message saying that due to licensing restrictions this show could not be viewed. My son complains about the delay when watching sports when he hears the neighbors scream in excitement before they even get to see what happened. Sports for me had poor quality as well due to the way they compress/encode the video.

So... IMO, streaming OTA channels is not a good replacement for a real OTA reception.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

OTA programming OTA is FREE... simple as that. All you need is an antenna and signal.

As hard as it may be for some to accept ,some cord cutters don't want to stream so let's leave that out for now.

For many then the problem to solve becomes how do I record conveniently at reasonable cost.

Of the options available the TiVo Roamio OTA and now Bolt OTA are excellent options.
The hardware is reliable. The user interface is EZ to learn, setting aside the Hydra debate.
As long as the guide is accurate you may never have to contact support.

$399 for a Roamio OTA is easily amortized in a couple/few years if you've left cable but the Bolt OTA @ $500 is a larger investment.

If you haven't left cable then all the OTA DVR options are costly and have to be justified. Some options are more complicated than TiVo. Most OTA DVR products serve only one TV.

My experience is that even with TiVo's four tuners I have recording conflicts and miss recording some programs I want to record and that is a compromise I choose to accept.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


> For us, we want to stick to TiVo for one reason - the ability to jump over commercials easily. We've tried streaming services and it's just so clunky. We're spoiled.


This is exactly my thought as well. The thing I hate most about streaming is the poor way that REW/FF is handled. Each service does it differently, most are awful, and some are bordering on unusable. And, of course, streaming often has unskippable commercials. The ease of REW/FF with Tivo is a major reason why I have it, and also one reason I'm reluctant to try an IP OTA device. Even if an IP device would have more functionality, I assume the REW/FF functions I use so much would be clunky.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

just4tivo said:


> $399 for a Roamio OTA is easily amortized in a couple/few years if you've left cable but the Bolt OTA @ $500 is a larger investment.


But the $500 for the Bolt OTA includes lifetime service. If you keep it for more than three years you're better off than paying monthly.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

TeamPace said:


> I see this as bad news for OTA users. I've helped over a dozen families "cut the cord" and nearly all of those families included a TiVo Roamio OTA in their setup. It was a hard sell to these families that purchasing a $399 Roamio was worth the investment. And truth is many of them got a Roamio at a discount price as well. At almost $500 the Bolt OTA will be a non-starter (and having another monthly fee is an even harder sell, although the lower priced subscription is a step in the right direction).
> 
> The second issue: In every instance (about 4 installs) where I tried using a Bolt I had significant reception issues. Eventually we switched to a Roamio OTA and the reception issues went away. I know there are differing experiences on Bolt vs Roamio reception but at least in the market I'm in the Bolt seems a poor choice for OTA use. At this point I'm not sure what I will recommend to people. I've tried Tablo, and Air TV with some success but TiCo has always give. The best user experience. I suspect I'll give the new Amazon device a try.


My only real comp!ain't with the Bolt OTA is the capacity and the higher lifetime price than what I previously paid. With my Roamios it was easy and inexpensive to stick a 3TB hard drive in them. I have one refrurb lifetime Roaamio OTA I paid $200 for and one refurb lifeime Roamio Basic I paid $300 for. I put an inexpensive 3TB drive in each of them and gave them to my GF since she only uses OTA. And for myself I still have a Roamio Basic I got in 2013 that has a $6.95 a month suppcription that I use for OTA.

I would definitely get a Bolt OTA to replace it if I could cheaply put a 3TB drive in there. But I can't. And the smaller size would be nice because my OTA TiVo is the one I take back and forth to my GFs house for use to watch shows on.

As far as reception at my location. I know the Bolt can get the same channels the Roamio can which could get the same channels the Premiere got which could get the same channels the Series 3 got.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

PJO1966 said:


> But the $500 for the Bolt OTA includes lifetime service. If you keep it for more than three years you're better off than paying monthly.


Agreed, "better off than paying monthly", but not better than paying $399 for a Roamio OTA with lifetime.

Again, if the user is leaving cable or DBS then the money saved amortizes the cost of an OTA DVR, but if the user is already an OTA viewer $399 or $500 is a big chunk to swallow to be able to record FREE programming.

Being in a suburb the better tuning ability in the Roamio OTA is important. I don't think the Bolt OTA will get me as many channels and costs more than the Roamio OTA.

Not all of us have the newest cell phones with unlimited service. Some of us choose to continue to have land lines.
For some cost is a big consideration while some pay for what they want without thinking.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> I would definitely get a Bolt OTA to replace it if I could cheaply put a 3TB drive in there. But I can't. And the smaller size would be nice because my OTA TiVo is the one I take back and forth to my GFs house for use to watch shows on.


The price and relative availability has gone up and down over time, but the often-recommended Toshiba 3TB 2.5" replacement drive still is available. E.g. *Toshiba MQ03ABB300 3.0TB 2.5-inch 15.0mm SATA... at MacSales.com*


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I looked into a land line when I started my plan to cut the cord (we have our phones through Spectrum). $70/mo.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

And likewise, the Toshiba drive in the 2TB version, at less cost. *BRAND NEW WITH WARRANTY(MQ03ABB200) Toshiba 2TB 5400RPM SATA 2.5" Internal Drive 4058154047279 | eBay*


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

jedimindtrick said:


> Yes! An answer to this question would be most helpful.
> 
> I bought (and continue to use) a 500GB Tivo BOLT with my exclusively OTA setup. I paid more for the device than this new offering and am paying way more for each year's annual service.
> 
> So can I pay the $69.99 annual service for my BOLT? I don't need guide data for anything but for the few local channels I get.


Bumping this thread so hopefully TiVo_Ted or others can reply. Looking to see what can be done for us earlier BOLT adopters who paid -more- to buy a 500GB original BOLT for our strictly OTA needs. We paid more for the original device and continue to regularly pay more for monthly service. Instead of paying my current $149.99/yr, can I switch to $69.99/yr service? I just get local channels and don't use guide service for anything from cable.

Seems silly to have to ditch the current (perfectly fine) BOLT device to pay even more $$ to get this latest one with the lower subscription rate.

Three years after my original purchase, with the advent of Amazon and other solutions, Tivo looks less compelling as I contemplate whether to renew my $149.99 annual service in October or not... I did cut the cord to save $$, after all... Hmmm...

Any word on what Tivo may do for us?


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

PJO1966 said:


> I looked into a land line when I started my plan to cut the cord (we have our phones through Spectrum). $70/mo.


Was paying close to $200 a month for Comcrap cable, Comcrap phone, and Comcrap broadband.

I now pay $90 a month for landline with unlimited long distance and hi speed DSL from Centurylink

I offset the $399 cost of my Roamio OTA with lifetime in FOUR months by bailing on Comcast.
Every month after that I save $100 by watching and recording OTA on my TiVo .

I have phone, free long distance, broadband, and TV with DVR.

So far I'm about $3200 ahead since cutting the cord. Now that's return on investment.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

Bigg said:


> PBS. PBS is 80% of what my TiVo records. Also, local transport controls for CBS and NBC that are chock full of ads and promos.


I watch some PBS and for you an OTA dvr would be fine but for the vast majority of TV watchers I think my point is valid. Still might get one though


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## JLV03 (Feb 12, 2018)

Mikeguy said:


> The price and relative availability has gone up and down over time, but the often-recommended Toshiba 3TB 2.5" replacement drive still is available. E.g. *Toshiba MQ03ABB300 3.0TB 2.5-inch 15.0mm SATA... at MacSales.com*


Reviews on Amazon are not kind to this particular drive: https://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-5400RPM-SATA-External-Storage/dp/B017O266UE


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

JLV03 said:


> Reviews on Amazon are not kind to this particular drive: https://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-5400RPM-SATA-External-Storage/dp/B017O266UE


A bit discouraging there. But that doesn't seem to track the experience of posters here, where the drive seemed to become the replacement drive of choice. Also, there may be something of an Amazon listings issue going on--the current product listing, with only 11 reviews, is not the original listing for the drive, which had, if I recall correctly, a much greater number of reviews, the majority of them very positive.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

just4tivo said:


> ...
> 
> Not all of us have the newest cell phones with unlimited service. Some of us choose to continue to have land lines.
> For some cost is a big consideration while some pay without thinking for what they want.


Do people really still have cellphones without unlimited calling plans (at least nationwide) nowadays?

I understand many not having unlimited data of course, but not unlimited calling?

And by "landline" service, I take that as meaning modern VoIP solutions and not including traditional POTS.

As POTS is rapidly becoming more expensive and financially impractical due to increasing obsolescence.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

HoTatII said:


> And by "landline" service, I take that as meaning modern VoIP solutions and not including traditional POTS.
> 
> As POTS is rapidly becoming more expensive and financially impractical due to increasing obsolescence.


I haven't seen anyone cutting down the millions of miles of copper on those telephone poles.

In my case traditional POTS or what we old timers call "tip and ring".

Living in a suburb I have to know I'll have a dial tone in an emergency or a power failure.

I get a discount on DSL and price lock as long as I don't change my service if I have POTS .


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

chicagobrownblue said:


> What OTA channels are you watching? How many viewers? I rarely have more than 4 network shows (which I assume are the bulk of OTA channels content) recording at once. Most of my conflicts are from padding cable channels. Cable shows repeat frequently so that is not a concern.
> 
> And I assume the cable channels are not OTA. I was in a store when an elderly couple kept asking for the antenna that will get HBO and Showtime for free. It was a fun conversation to overhear.


If you pad OTA, you can eat four tuners in no time at all. Abc is notorious for slight overruns.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> If you pad OTA, you can eat four tuners in no time at all. ABC is notorious for slight overruns.


Exactly right and that means recording conflicts... even with four tuners.


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## severe (Dec 12, 2009)

Been awhile and excuse me for asking something that may have been addressed, but this seemed a decent thread to ask this question. 

And that’s.. Cord Cutters, from where are you getting your internet service? I’ve Xfinity at home and I consider myself quite tech savvy but I can’t seem to justify things. The cost to add TV service, including a premium channel, to my internet service was something like $15 if I remember correctly. 

My channel list includes the basics in news and entertainment including many of the apps I would be using if streaming the content, so I haven’t been able to shake them loose so to speak. Am I missing something?


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## rdrrepair (Nov 24, 2006)

jedimindtrick said:


> Any word on what Tivo may do for us?


 Many people who have owned their TiVo for 3+ years have reported being given the option to purchase lifetime for $99 to $199 by threatening to cancel their service. Obviously, ymmv. Let us know how you make out and if not successful the first time try again with another agent.


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

cldlhd said:


> I think the problem, besides the cost, is the fact that streaming services that replace the cable channels you lose are now available with local channels and live TV. So for me the only arguments for TiVo are better picture quality with OTA and streaming apps like Netflix and Amazon Prime built in so less input switching but since I'm willing to bet that my LG OLED TV ( cat6 hardwired ) does a better job with those apps it would basically be just for better local channel picture quality with shows I DVR.
> Am I missing something? Is the experience worth it? I'm in the 7 day trial with YouTube TV and the picture isn't as good as my antenna but it's better than cable, has unlimited cloud DVR, live TV, can be used on all 3 of my TV's , my phone etc... If they get HGTV, the food Network, animal planet and discovery I think I might finally dump cable


You are missing the control over what your watching. Streaming may not let you bypass commercials, FF and RW stink on streaming. You can keep shows as long as you want without them no longer being available. Just over all Tivo is a better experience.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

severe said:


> Been awhile and excuse me for asking something that may have been addressed, but this seemed a decent thread to ask this question.
> 
> And that's.. Cord Cutters, from where are you getting your internet service? I've Xfinity at home and I consider myself quite tech savvy but I can't seem to justify things. The cost to add TV service, including a premium channel, to my internet service was something like $15 if I remember correctly.
> 
> My channel list includes the basics in news and entertainment including many of the apps I would be using if streaming the content, so I haven't been able to shake them loose so to speak. Am I missing something?


If the goal for cord cutters is to have phone service (some form or another, TV (one form or another), broadband (one form or another), and a DVR the question is total cost and money saved by cutting the cord.

For me, phone and broadband is $90 and OTA TV is free. For a DVR I chose TiVo and that cost me $399 with lifetime service. By not paying Comcrap $200 a month for phone, TV , and broadband I amortized the $399 TiVo cost in four months by paying $90 for phone and broadband and not paying Comcrap $200 every month. After that my total cost for phone (landline or POTS) with unlimited long distance, broadband, and OTA TV with TiVo DVR is $90 a month.

For you, what are you paying for Xfinity broadband? Add to that the cost of adding cable TV service equal to OTA and the cost of a DVR and that's your total cost. How does that compare to other available options?

Plus consider that Xfinity has some appealing deals to entice you to add services that disappear in a year and then your bill goes up dramatically.


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## longrider (Oct 26, 2017)

severe said:


> Been awhile and excuse me for asking something that may have been addressed, but this seemed a decent thread to ask this question.
> 
> And that's.. Cord Cutters, from where are you getting your internet service? I've Xfinity at home and I consider myself quite tech savvy but I can't seem to justify things. The cost to add TV service, including a premium channel, to my internet service was something like $15 if I remember correctly.
> 
> My channel list includes the basics in news and entertainment including many of the apps I would be using if streaming the content, so I haven't been able to shake them loose so to speak. Am I missing something?


If you have that kind of double play deal I agree it is not worth cutting the cord. Where I am cable is not even offered, I was using DirecTV befoer I went OTA. My internet is via a WISP (Wireless ISP) offering 20 meg for a decent price. In town CenturyLink is getting fairly aggressive with decent DSL (40 meg+) as long you are in an area with a fiber node close enough.


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## kendq (Jan 12, 2005)

TeamPace said:


> I see this as bad news for OTA users. I've helped over a dozen families "cut the cord" and nearly all of those families included a TiVo Roamio OTA in their setup. It was a hard sell to these families that purchasing a $399 Roamio was worth the investment. And truth is many of them got a Roamio at a discount price as well. At almost $500 the Bolt OTA will be a non-starter (and having another monthly fee is an even harder sell, although the lower priced subscription is a step in the right direction).
> 
> The second issue: In every instance (about 4 installs) where I tried using a Bolt I had significant reception issues. Eventually we switched to a Roamio OTA and the reception issues went away. I know there are differing experiences on Bolt vs Roamio reception but at least in the market I'm in the Bolt seems a poor choice for OTA use. At this point I'm not sure what I will recommend to people. I've tried Tablo, and Air TV with some success but TiCo has always give. The best user experience. I suspect I'll give the new Amazon device a try.


My tivo 3 had excellent reception, then I made the mistake of upgrading to the bolt so I could cut the cord and keep 3 TV's by using the 2 minis downstairs and not try to run the antenna signal across the whole house. the bolt is unwatchable and Tivo says its because of the 4 tunner split that weakens the signal. These towers are less than 30 miles away. Thru help on this forum I found it has to do with the SNR multipath obstructions. If my suburban flat land area has these issues, many more will too. then on top of that with their 4 tunners Many can only run 1 TV (because it cant use Moca for the minis). Be ready for a lot of trail period returns


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

TonyD79 said:


> If you pad OTA, you can eat four tuners in no time at all. Abc is notorious for slight overruns.


ABC is one network. Hard to imagine it eating 4 tuners.

If the OP would answer my question, I could make suggestions. If you had specific problems with ABC on an OTA 4-tuner DVR, I could make a suggestion. But, this is all hypothetical.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

chicagobrownblue said:


> ABC is one network. Hard to imagine it eating 4 tuners.


I don't know what the poster meant by "overruns," but networks scheduling their programming with built-in overruns (extending beyond the half-hour grid) effectively lends to the recording conflicts that result from padding ... so 4 tuners can quickly become effectively just 2.


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

rdrrepair said:


> Many people who have owned their TiVo for 3+ years have reported being given the option to purchase lifetime for $99 to $199 by threatening to cancel their service. ...


Good idea! I'll have to give that a shot. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

chicagobrownblue said:


> ABC is one network. Hard to imagine it eating 4 tuners.
> 
> If the OP would answer my question, I could make suggestions. If you had specific problems with ABC on an OTA 4-tuner DVR, I could make a suggestion. But, this is all hypothetical.


It was an EXAMPLE of one network chewing up two tuners. I have had conflicts with OTA channels only. You do know that there are six major OTA networks, right?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

just4tivo said:


> Agreed, "better off than paying monthly", but not better than paying $399 for a Roamio OTA with lifetime.
> 
> Again, if the user is leaving cable or DBS then the money saved amortizes the cost of an OTA DVR, but if the user is already an OTA viewer $399 or $500 is a big chunk to swallow to be able to record FREE programming.
> 
> ...


I still have a landline. I tried dropping it nine years ago. But came back after less than a year since it's cheaper for me to have the landline.

If I were to drop my landline my monthly cost on FiOS will go up.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> I don't know what the poster meant by "overruns," but networks scheduling their programming with built-in overruns (extending beyond the half-hour grid) effectively lends to the recording conflicts that result from padding ... so 4 tuners can quickly become effectively just 2.


Network programs often start a minute early and some run a minute late so so 4 tuners do quickly become effectively just 2.

And that happens often... like a few times a week.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

just4tivo said:


> Network programs often start a minute early and some run a minute late so so 4 tuners do quickly become effectively just 2.
> 
> And that happens often.


And even when it doesn't, it is safer to pad whenever you can to ensure you get the ends of shows.

TiVo is horrible on not sharing a tuner when programs on the same channel overlap. Other DVRS can and they save tuners that way.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

just4tivo said:


> Exactly right and that means recording conflicts... even with four tuners.


Not here. I have no padding on my ABC shows and it records everything with nothing being cut off. It starts on time and ends on time.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

aaronwt said:


> Not here. I have no padding on my ABC shows and it records everything with nothing being cut off. It starts on time and ends on time.


I envy you because that is not what I see at my location.

When I set to record exact times I often miss the beginning or end of network shows.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

just4tivo said:


> Network programs often start a minute early and some run a minute late so so 4 tuners do quickly become effectively just 2.
> 
> And that happens often.


Again not here. It is extremely rare for me to need to pad a show. All the major networks here start and end on time. Now If you are talking about an overrun for football or something the. That is different.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

TonyD79 said:


> And even when it doesn't, it is safer to pad whenever you can to ensure you get the ends of shows.
> 
> TiVo is horrible on not sharing a tuner when programs on the same channel overlap. Other DVRS can and they save tuners that way.


TiVo is not intelligent enough to see that you have programs set to record on the same channel in one time slot following the other so it commits two tuners when it should only need one.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

just4tivo said:


> I envy you because that is not what I see at my location.
> 
> When I set to record exact times I often miss the beginning or end of network shows.


I've seen an issue here on Comcast, but that is over cable. Comcast here is around thirty seconds behind. I can watch something live from home remotely on my cell and I am still ahead of what is being shown on Comcast in my area at my parents and brothers house.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

aaronwt said:


> Again not here. It is extremely rare for me to need to pad a show. All the major networks here start and end on time. Now If you are talking about an overrun for football or something the. That is different.


Talking about standard network week to week shows and I'm just telling you what happens at my TiVo Roamio.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

21 prime time major network 1P. Not one instance of padding. However, The Daily Show normally needs a minute or two at the end. I guess it's an OTA problem.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

aaronwt said:


> I still have a landline. I tried dropping it nine years ago. But came back after less than a year since it's cheaper for me to have the landline.
> 
> If I were to drop my landline my monthly cost on FiOS will go up.


That's what Spectrum does with us ...

We were perfectly satisfied here with Ooma VoIP with premium service for landline combined with our cellphones.

But unless we bundled our 100/10 internet service with "Spectrum Voice" for ~$75.00 a month. They would raise our internet cost from $49.95/mo. to about the same price.

So we just use (or more like "waste") the Spectrum Voice line for Faxing. Which we almost never do any more

Can't wait until AT&T Fiber internet service which the tech/contractors have been crawling all over my neighborhood for the past month installing becomes active.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

HoTatII said:


> That's what Spectrum does with us ...
> 
> We were perfectly satisfied here with Ooma VoIP with premium service for landline combined with our cellphones.
> 
> ...


Don't be in such a big hurry to become an AT&T customer.


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## johnfasc (Dec 24, 2014)

HoTatII said:


> That's what Spectrum does with us ...
> 
> We were perfectly satisfied here with Ooma VoIP with premium service for landline combined with our cellphones.
> 
> ...


Yes that's why I dropped cable altogether. Spectrum....in New York state they gave spectrum an ultimatum. Get out of the state and turn over cable to someone else. They have till oct. 15. People have been complaining forever about them. I never had phone with them because I knew what that meant. You can never get out of it. I now have Ooma also, love it. And I know they will raise my internet soon because that's all I have from them. But we are stuck it's them or nothing. There are no other internet providers in our area, no Verizon, no at&t, no satellite that I know of. So it indeed is a monopoly. 
And every week I get a mailer to purchase a 10 channels of my choice for around $20! But after two years I will be stuck with them again, so no deal. I'll go with OTA until it's not available. I'm happy with the 15 or so watchable stations along with Amazon and Netflix.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Might have been better to wait for the new Amazon Tivo app to be released and then make this bolt OTA a headless unit. Since they are stripping off MOCA, they could also strip off HDMI.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

shwru980r said:


> Might have been better to wait for the new Amazon Tivo app to be released and then make this bolt OTA a headless unit. Since they are stripping off MOCA, they could also strip off HDMI.


While I don't agree or like TiVo's decision to remove of the internal MoCA adapter from the new Bolt OTA.

They'd have to be absolutely insane to try and remove something so basic and essential as the HDMI connection ....

I mean for what, analog component and composite breakout cables only?

That's crazy ...

(Do the majority of HDTVs sold today even have analog connectors anymore?)

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

I think what he meant was to create a network server/streaming device, (like a Tablo DVR), using an upgraded TiVo app on Amazon fireTV, Roku, etc. In such a configuration no video output is required, as the box wouldn't have to be located anywhere near to a TV.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

HoTatII said:


> Agree with all you say here with one unfortunately significant exception where you said.
> 
> Which may be true except for the problem of Weigel owned KAZA-54 that channel shares on a poor low power Spanish station, KHTV-CD 27. Where its two subchannels 54-1 HD (MeTV) and now recently 54-2 (DECADES) are not receivable by many.
> 
> ...


Ah, Yes, KAZA 54.1. I was going to mention that in my post, but I thought to leave it out primarily due to 56.3, but I have been aware since before its move, that Decades is now at 54.2. I would say, however, that KAZA presents a challenge, it is true many may have lost access to Decades because of its move to 54.2, but not necessarily due to the lower power of its transmitter, but likely to its particular position on Mt. _*Harvard*_, as opposed to being atop Mt. _*Wilson*_. All stations at Mt. Harvard do present some degree of challenge to receive well in many circumstances because of Mt. Harvard's lower altitude.

Over the decades, many radio and TV stations whose transmitter was not atop Mt. Wilson, have done so, but, most often, with one _*MAJOR*_ requirement from the FCC: they had to significantly reduce their power, often at levels lower than legacy transmitters atop Mt. Wilson who blew them away with allocated power. Despite the huge reduction in power, the trade-off for these stations was the supreme _*elevation*_, which resulted in *MILLIONS* more people able to get a GOOD, strong signal to enjoy their content. But, of course that would be for those who moved to Mt. _*WISLON*_. Mt. _*Harvard*_ is another story because its lower elevation does present a challenge to more people in the SoCal area who may get Mt. Wilson just fine, but are in such an area where the lower elevations of Mt. Harvard makes all the difference in the world, AND YOURS TRULY is a hair's breath away from not getting anything on Mt. Harvard, which has been vexing me from day one because if I were a few blocks north, I would not be getting anything from Mt. Harvard, while countless others just south of me have no problem, provided they are not to cozy to a hill or suffer ATSC's wrath of mult-path due to obstructions.

When Decades moved, I noticed I was getting unreliable signal for 54.1 and 54.2 _(sometimes a 480i sub-channel can come in FINE, but its HD main station of .1 may suffer terrible from constant picture break-up, even though the are both broadcast on the same frequency. This is because the SD stream requires less data for its picture than the HD big brother. Also, with digital, a broadcaster may have the "wiggle room" to transmit at lower power, but with greater FEC providing higher reliability of reception in areas that have challenges receiving that signal. The down-side is that most often, more data--as in more sub-channels, especially more than one HD channel in the same stream--for OTA--would require either more power--or, perhaps more precisely, using its full allocation of power--to make up for less FEC for the required greater compression and far more packets necessary--and far fewer full frames--to be received for a stable picture. So, for digital OTA, the real enemy isn't necessarily low power, but the necessary HIGHER power with too much data--especially more than one HD channel or a lot of SD packets--that results in significantly less FEC (full frames), and with digital, it is all about FEC, and FEC, and FEC for all sorts of conditions. The problem for KAZA is its location at the lower elevation of Mt. Harvard COUPLED with its presumed lower power AND its presumed number of channels--more than one HD channel?--or packets. If KAZA would shed all but one HD and Decades the result would be greater FEC, and more people would get it reliably. But the marketplace makes such a scenario unlikely. Also some sub-channels with a virtual number are actually being transmitted from a different broadcast channel, but are re-mapped to a different virtual number; this provides a large number of sub-channels that would otherwise be impossible to transmit on a single OTA carrier)._

As I was saying, before the move of Decades to 54.2, I was, indeed, getting very unreliable signal. Well, considering how dear old mom LOVES Decades--I like to watch on occasion, too--I had to get my sorry butt up there to see if I could do anything to acquire it. I found I really had to be extremely precise in my pointing due to the inferior position of the transmitter and the natural obstructions in line of eye sight of it. Eventually, I GOT IT! It is stable and solid, but it did take an effort, so I know others in close to call areas for reception may never get it reliably, and that can be a lot of people, but not the majority.

I can say that both Dish OTA USB dual-tuners for the Hopper 3's and my TiVo S3's give me good numbers. However, my TiVo S4-S5's, as you might expect, give me pessimistic numbers. Oh, it has been rock solid on the S4-S5's since day one of Decades, but I fully expect that my S4-S5's may encounter problems during inclement weather or our infamous winds around SoCal. I fear all I have to be is just a touch of the point, and S4-S5 might not provide a reliable viewing and recording experience of KAZA, while the S3's and Dish OTA will have reduced numbers, but should provide stable PQ.

The irony is I LOVE the logos on my S4-S5's because it is far easier for me to find those niche OTA channels with all the good content. When I use my S3's, I get confused on where to find what because the S3 only displays channel numbers and call letters, but nothing to indicate who the provider is. However, the S3 will have to be the main recording machines for KAZA because of the S3's clearly _*SUPERIOR*_ OTA tuning ability, and this is what makes it hard for me to even mention TiVo Bolt products to cord cutters. TiVo really blew it on staying with such an inferior OTA tuner for Bolt. And, as for me, I am using amplification for my OTA, but even that only helps to a point for the S4-S5 tuning challenging OTA channels. While I get 100 on my S3's with the very robust VHF-High and some others with higher power, far too many stations that have great numbers on Dish OTA and S3's show up as disappointingly mediocre at best or downright ripe for failure at worst.

Sorry for the long post, but your point about KAZA and its challenges in reception are accurate, as I have found out the hard way myself.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

I was blown away by the Bolt Vox OTA pricing scheme: $250 bucks for the box; that's a great price; but another $250 for All-in! Hey, we can buy a second BV OTA for that price! Yes, there is monthly and annual, but we all have to admit that we will never see that money again should we do the smart thing and get All-In later, and at some point, we will have paid too much for monthly or annual and it would seem foolish to buy All-in at that point. Despite the seemingly reasonable $6.99 monthly, All-In is the smart way to go, so forgive me if All-in is all I use in my calculations because with out it, the true, ever increasing full price is beyond the $500 for the BV OTA and AI.

I appreciate the expense of producing these DVR's by TiVo, but free market reality is quite different. The Roamio OTA, which included AI, at $399 seemed to as high as TiVo dare go with such a product. From TiVo's point of view, the increase is _"merely a hundred dollars"_ more than the old S5 OTA, and the new BV OTA has built-in streaming (very nice!) and whatever else is an upgrade, but cord cutters and OTA only people are looking to SAVE money, or, at least, not spend so much on ONE item. $500 for a DVR is too spooky for OTA only folks. Further, OTA only people have a deep, deep aversion to ANY additional monthly or annual charges, and this is in addition to an already pricey--by their standards--$250 investment in the DVR box itself. And the disingenuous promotion of mentioning ONLY the price of the DVR itself, and NOT mentioning the necessary subscription or the just as expensive All-in, leaves people to presume that the price of the DVR includes the TiVo Service because that is how the last TiVo OTA product was sold. Those people are in for a shock, and will respond with a "No thanks, TiVo."

The VB OTA current pricing scheme seems almost like an experiment by TiVo to test the waters, not only with TCF members, but with consumers in general. I think TiVo will be very disappointed with the sales of this DVR. Clearly, the strategy is to tout a lower price for purchase of the DVR compared to Roamio OTA (or just as a pleasing number of $250 to those ignorant of the Roamio OTA) in order to grab people's attention, and lure them in. Then comes the sticker shock of All-in. Well, those people will be running away after the initial lure. Of course, TiVo could have priced All-In at a far more competitive $100-$150, but the psychological impact of the number *2* before the *49* for the price of AIP is stinging to the eyes. But even that strategy of pricing AI at $100-$150 may not work, either, because psychology has everything to do with it.

Even though the Roamio OTA was a fairly pricey DVR itself at $399, it did have the psychological advantage of including the TiVo Service at no additional charge. In other words, a TiVo OTA DVR priced at $300, but a requirement of purchasing the TiVo Service AI at an additional $99 can be perceived as a "poor value" by some, but that very same DVR and service at the single, one-time price, never pay additional for anything for the DVR to work at $399 can be perceived by the same people as a "decent (or good) value." The psychology of a number *3 *as the first digit of the price as opposed to the number *4 *as the first digit is the deal breaker for a whole lot of people, especially when considering competition.

I would not be surprised if in the coming months, TiVo has a "Sale" with these BV OTA boxes in regards to the price of the Service, and it might make sense if the limited time sale has the right numbers. I also would not be surprised if, in the end, TiVo prices UP the BV OTA to $399 with All-In service included because of dismal response to the current pricing scheme, and getting them out at $399 beats having them in a warehouse somewhere and getting NO MONEY at all for them.

And the price of the Mini is the OTHER problem. I don't know how much it costs TiVo to make, but I speak only as a consumer when I say that the Mini should be priced around $125, and not much more. The current pricing for the Mini is indefensible when talking to people about the TiVo OTA option. Again, the psychology is that the Mini is priced at nearly $200, and that is how consumers will view it. _ "I'm supposed to pay almost $200 for this thing, not too far from the price of the DVR itself! Sheesh! Never mind; it was a great idea until we saw the pricing."_ Cord cutters find some numbers either scary or downright insulting because their goal is to try to spend LESS, or not too much money for TV, and TiVo's current BV OTA and Mini aren't' even in the ballpark. Cord cutters _do possess_ basic math skills.

And lastly, for all that marketing and after some cord cutter breaks down and decides to invest in a TiVo BV OTA and a nearly $200 Mini, he or she learns the hard way about the Bolt's INFERIOR ability to reliably tune in OTA channels. There have been posts on this forum of people returning the Bolts ONLY because of the OTA tuners poor performance. This is the ONE thing that makes all the difference in the world because if after spending *nearly* _*$700*_ for one DVR with AIP and one Mini (heaven help thee who need to connect a 3rd TV) one could at least lean back and be able to watch and record nearly all the OTA channels available to them with TiVo's great features. The economics of *"satisfaction"* could be fairly high to acceptable to people, but NOT even getting MOST of the channels they want will certainly sour more than a few people, and the bad word of mouth against TiVo would be unfortunate, and only because of the lousy OTA tuner and how it is engineered.

Well, I would suggest that those who find the Bolt's tuners acceptable, just wait for TiVo to drop the *full* price of the new BV OTA with AIP included before blowing big dough on this poorly priced unit and Service as is today. I get that TiVo would be better off with a constant stream of revenue form their DVR's, but these numbers are not going to get TiVo to that point. It needs to compete with the other OTA alternatives out there--IN PRICE! Amazon's OTA TV solution has the advantage of not only price, but huge numbers of people who already have a relationship with Amazon including the great experience with Amazon's other products such as the Fire TV and Echo devices, so TiVo can not afford to price too high greedy. IMHO, I think TiVo could still price lower and still make money (it probably costs less to make than any of us think), but that will depend upon how many are sold, and with lower pricing, it is far likely that more units would be sold.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I wonder if some of the equation is perspective. For those of us on the "inside," including TiVo and current customers, we're already used to TiVo's pricings--an additional $100 for going from the Roamio OTA to the Bolt OTA, while not simply a pizza, may be somewhat understandable--I mean, it _is_ going to the Bolt. But, coming from the outside as a potential new TiVo customer, as @Series3Sub states above, $500 is a real chunk of change (and, in fact, is a bump up over that, once you remember that tax is/may be involved), and, psychologically, seriously above a $400 or below All-In box.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

HoTatII said:


> While I don't agree or like TiVo's decision to remove of the internal MoCA adapter from the new Bolt OTA.
> 
> They'd have to be absolutely insane to try and remove something so basic and essential as the HDMI connection ....
> 
> ...


There is no port on the bolt for analog output. You would only be able to stream from the bolt using the new Amazon app. Similar to the Amazon Recast. A headless unit.


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## tommage1 (Nov 6, 2008)

just4tivo said:


> Don't be in such a big hurry to become an AT&T customer.


Haha, yeah. Not so much that the service itself is bad. But CUSTOMER SERVICE, they have voice recognition now. If you need ANYTHING other than a routine question good luck. Heck even routine not good, can't just say "billing", they want complete sentences and/or more specifics. Then the "I could not understand you" message. End up getting routed overseas most of the time. And then if not routine they can't help you so they transfer you. Back to the automated voice recognition line. As bad as Comcast and Tivo CS can be AT&T takes the cake. Seems with almost any service nowadays you are ok as long as the service works, if you need to call about ANYTHING prepare to spend an hour or more on the phone and maybe get nothing done to boot. If most services were not near monopolies I would boycott ANY company where I cannot get to a live person (hopefully within the US) within a couple minutes


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

schatham said:


> You are missing the control over what your watching. Streaming may not let you bypass commercials, FF and RW stink on streaming. You can keep shows as long as you want without them no longer being available. Just over all Tivo is a better experience.


There is commercial skipping on YouTube TV but I'll admit it's not as good and you can only keep recordings for 9 months. I'm sure the TiVo DVR experience is better I'm just saying that for me I don't record a lot of the major broadcast networks, mostly use my antenna when watching local news and live sports, so I'd get a streaming service to replace what I'd like by getting rid of cable. If that streaming service includes local broadcast channels it makes $500 for the Bolt OTA and lifetime service a harder decision. Especially if when I'm flipping between a cable and a broadcast channel on tivo I have to change inputs each time.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

just4tivo said:


> If the goal for cord cutters is to have phone service (some form or another, TV (one form or another), broadband (one form or another), and a DVR the question is total cost and money saved by cutting the cord.
> 
> For me, phone and broadband is $90 and OTA TV is free. For a DVR I chose TiVo and that cost me $399 with lifetime service. By not paying Comcrap $200 a month for phone, TV , and broadband I amortized the $399 TiVo cost in four months by paying $90 for phone and broadband and not paying Comcrap $200 every month. After that my total cost for phone (landline or POTS) with unlimited long distance, broadband, and OTA TV with TiVo DVR is $90 a month.
> 
> ...


So you only have OTA tv channels? If you're good with that it's a no brainer but like you said if you add a streaming service it gets a little murkier.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

The Roamio OTA was a better box for OTA, and it was at a better price point. I'm wondering if one of the component suppliers stopped making a component of it, and TiVo had to stop production a while back, and now the stockpile has run out, so they have to go to the Bolt OTA.



PJO1966 said:


> I looked into a land line when I started my plan to cut the cord (we have our phones through Spectrum). $70/mo.


Huh? That's cord cutting 1.0. If you really want another annoying phone to be ringing all the time, get Ooma. It's basically free.



severe said:


> And that's.. Cord Cutters, from where are you getting your internet service? I've Xfinity at home and I consider myself quite tech savvy but I can't seem to justify things. The cost to add TV service, including a premium channel, to my internet service was something like $15 if I remember correctly.


Here's the problem. If internet is $74.99/mo, then it's $74.99/mo plus sales tax, and that's pretty much it in most cases.

If you get a "deal" for HD Triple Play at $89.99/mo, it's only for a year or two, and then the price jacks way up. But even if you can call in and keep the "deal", it's not a deal, due to all the extra fees. You can own your own equipment for Triple Play, but few people do own their own eMTA, and most people have DVR. So for one TV, here's what it actually costs (can vary by market and over time):

$89.99- Triple Play
$5.00- Broadcast TV fee
$7.00- RSN fee
$10- DVR fee
$11- Router rental

Total- $122.99 plus taxes and other regulatory fees like local cable access. Want another TV or two? Add $10/mo per TV. So you can easily get to $130/mo or more, and now you're effectively paying $50/mo for phone and TV.

Note that I compared the regular internet price to the teaser rate for TV, if you compare Apples to Apples in markets where they have new customer internet-only promos, the difference balloons from around $50/mo to $70-$90/mo.

Many people would have Netflix, Amazon, and HBO anyway, they don't do many HBO promotions anymore, so that's basically a standalone fee, so cutting the cord can really be that entire $70-$90/mo in savings if you go OTA and streaming only.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

cldlhd said:


> So you only have OTA tv channels? If you're good with that it's a no brainer but like you said if you add a streaming service it gets a little murkier.


There are numerous combinations... I was only comparing the cost of phone + cable/DBS with DVR + broadband versus the cost of phone + OTA with DVR + broadband. No streaming, since saving money is the the point of me cutting the cord.

I did go through withdrawal bailing on pay TV and I missed numerous programs I was really fond of but that passed.

I'm now saving $100 every month and have enough stuff recorded that I'm happy. More important, the wife is happy and easily embraced the (pre Hydra) interface on the Roamio OTA.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

@TiVo_Ted, will there be any changes to the Continual Care terms for the BOLT OTA, given its discounted subscription service plan rates?


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

just4tivo said:


> TiVo is not intelligent enough to see that you have programs set to record on the same channel in one time slot following the other so it commits two tuners when it should only need one.


However TiVo is smart enough to "clip" the lower priority recording (if instructed to) by the extended minute or two - I haven't seen any "ill" effects of such. Bottom line I have never had an issue where four tuners couldn't catch four recordings either concurrently and or back to back.

Phone wise Google Voice is free... if you are willing to give up 911 (you can pay for the service) and are willing to lose it if/when the Internet is down. Ooma is taxes only if you are worried about Google.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

So, you are okay with having to watch the beginning of the next program to see the end of the one you are watching.

And good for you that you’ve never had a problem. Don’t lecture people who have.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Charles R said:


> However TiVo is smart enough to "clip" the lower priority recording (if instructed to) by the extended minute or two - I haven't seen any "ill" effects of such. Bottom line I have never had an issue where four tuners couldn't catch four recordings either concurrently and or back to back.


And I repeatedly have.

Higher or lower priority is determined by TiVo as the show's place in the list not which shows I favor in case of a three way tie at the same time.

Having to choose to "clip" which program is not a choice I favor.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> So, you are okay with having to watch the beginning of the next program to see the end of the one you are watching.


I have a faint memory of having to do that once in close to two decades. So yeah I am.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Charles R said:


> However TiVo is smart enough to "clip" the lower priority recording (if instructed to) by the extended minute or two - I haven't seen any "ill" effects of such. Bottom line I have never had an issue where four tuners couldn't catch four recordings either concurrently and or back to back.
> 
> Phone wise Google Voice is free... if you are willing to give up 911 (you can pay for the service) and are willing to lose it if/when the Internet is down. Ooma is taxes only if you are worried about Google.


When you live a 24 mile ambulance ride or an $11,000 helicopter ride from an ER 911 can't depend on internet service or cell phone signal.

Seems things now are a matter of how little one will accept.

I've made my choices and detailed them for the benefit of others who may be interested and to be ignored by those who are not.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

jedimindtrick said:


> Bumping this thread so hopefully TiVo_Ted or others can reply. Looking to see what can be done for us earlier BOLT adopters who paid -more- to buy a 500GB original BOLT for our strictly OTA needs. We paid more for the original device and continue to regularly pay more for monthly service. Instead of paying my current $149.99/yr, can I switch to $69.99/yr service? I just get local channels and don't use guide service for anything from cable.
> 
> Seems silly to have to ditch the current (perfectly fine) BOLT device to pay even more $$ to get this latest one with the lower subscription rate.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, we don't have a way to connect your signal source to our billing system in order to accomplish this. Because of the difference in pricing, very few BOLT 500GB customers connect their devices to OTA. If you call customer support, they may have a way to offer you a reduced monthly fee if you've been paying full price for a while.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

It'd be great if Tivo handled automatic padding and clipping better, but until it does, there is often a way to see what you missed. Most major OTA network channels have a streaming channel, and may provide the most recent episodes available for free. If a show gets pushed and I miss the last part, I can usually catch it on streaming. Streaming the show is also useful if reception issues cause dropout issues. Obviously this isn't a perfect solution, but it can minimize the pain for OTA users.

Perhaps one improvement for OTA Tivo is if it could realize such problems, like bad reception, and mention that the show may be available directly from the network stream. I know something like that should be obvious, but it's not something that everyone thinks about doing when the show can't be viewed.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have a way to connect your signal source to our billing system in order to accomplish this. Because of the difference in pricing, very few BOLT 500GB customers connect their devices to OTA. If you call customer support, they may have a way to offer you a reduced monthly fee if you've been paying full price for a while.


With respect... while TiVo must keep its eye on acquiring new customers it shouldn't just roll its eyes at the ones it already has.

A percentage of current TiVo customers do TiVo a great service by providing support and advice to new and perplexed TiVo customers when TiVo fails to do so.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

warrenn said:


> It'd be great if Tivo handled automatic padding and clipping better, but until it does, there is often a way to see what you missed. Most major OTA network channels have a streaming channel, and may provide the most recent episodes available for free. If a show gets pushed and I miss the last part, I can usually catch it on streaming. Streaming the show is also useful if reception issues cause dropout issues. Obviously this isn't a perfect solution, but it can minimize the pain for OTA users.
> 
> Perhaps one improvement for OTA Tivo is if it could realize such problems, like bad reception, and mention that the show may be available directly from the network stream. I know something like that should be obvious, but it's not something that everyone thinks about doing when the show can't be viewed.


And that's not something that people who don't stream can do.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

warrenn said:


> It'd be great if Tivo handled automatic padding and clipping better, but until it does, there is often a way to see what you missed. Most major OTA network channels have a streaming channel, and may provide the most recent episodes available for free. If a show gets pushed and I miss the last part, I can usually catch it on streaming. Streaming the show is also useful if reception issues cause dropout issues. Obviously this isn't a perfect solution, but it can minimize the pain for OTA users.


It is quite awkward to get the end of a show you've already watched most of via steaming means. Especially when a lot of them don't allow you to skip commercials or limit FF speeds.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

> It is quite awkward to get the end of a show you've already watched most of via steaming means. Especially when a lot of them don't allow you to skip commercials or limit FF speeds.


I'm 1000% with you on that one. In no way am I saying it's going to be as convenient as watching on Tivo. And in no way am I saying it's the best solution. But it is handy when sports unexpectedly pushes a show out of its timeslot and you miss a major part.



> And that's not something that people who don't stream can do.


Most of the same content is available through their website as well. Even if someone doesn't have a streaming device hooked up to their TV, they can watch on the website.

Obviously this isn't a perfect solution, and may have many inconveniences, but it is a way to catch what you miss given the way Tivo works. And given that OTA will sometimes have reception dropouts which Tivo has no control over, Tivo won't always be able to solve it.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

warrenn said:


> Obviously this isn't a perfect solution, and may have many inconveniences, but it is a way to catch what you miss given the way Tivo works. And given that OTA will sometimes have reception dropouts which Tivo has no control over, Tivo won't always be able to solve it.


I'm not talking about acts of God affecting OTA broadcasts.

I'm talking about repeated clipping on OTA shows I'm experiencing where more tuners would cure the disease.

There's no limit to what one can do to treat the symptom at some inconvenience.


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## warrenn (Jun 24, 2004)

just4tivo said:


> I'm not talking about acts of God affecting OTA broadcasts.
> 
> I'm talking about repeated clipping on OTA shows I'm experiencing where more tuners would cure the disease.
> 
> There's no limit to what one can do to treat the symptom at some inconvenience.


I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was talking directly to you or to any particular situation. My original post did not quote anyone to try to avoid that issue. I brought it up because not everyone thinks of watching the show from the network. I was making the comment to the general audience in case it helps them at some point. Feel free to ignore if it doesn't apply to you.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

just4tivo said:


> I'm talking about repeated clipping on OTA shows I'm experiencing where more tuners would cure the disease.


That "disease" (more tuners) is easily cured by purchasing another TiVo.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Charles R said:


> That "disease" (more tuners) is easily cured by purchasing another TiVo.


My motivation for cutting the cord was to save money. I'm always amused at how quick some people are to spend other people's money.

Donations cheerfully accepted...


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

just4tivo said:


> My motivation for cutting the cord was to save money.


You could have saved even more and not purchased a TiVo. Unfortunately tuners cost money.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

krkaufman said:


> I don't know what the poster meant by "overruns," but networks scheduling their programming with built-in overruns (extending beyond the half-hour grid) effectively lends to the recording conflicts that result from padding ... so 4 tuners can quickly become effectively just 2.


I understand the concept. I'm asking the OP for what his specific problem is. I've solved all "overruns" aka "padding" on my 4-tuner Tivo and other problems. I have cable so I have a much wider range of potential conflicts but I've dealt with them. So, if the OP can specify his actual problem, there may be a solution.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

TonyD79 said:


> It was an EXAMPLE of one network chewing up two tuners. I have had conflicts with OTA channels only.


And you should post your problems in a separate thread. This is not rocket science.

My TV has a tuner so that is a fifth source of content. I have a Fire TV stick which is a sixth source of content. I have a Netflix subscription. I don't miss anything.


TonyD79 said:


> You do know that there are six major OTA networks, right?


I have cable in addition to the six major OTA networks and do not have a problem. As others have pointed out, you can buy another 4-tuner OTA but, it would be better to figure out a smart solution.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Series3Sub said:


> I was blown away by the Bolt Vox OTA pricing scheme: $250 bucks for the box; that's a great price; but another $250 for All-in!


Yeah, I agree. At a total cost of $500 (hardware + lifetime All-In service) for a single TV or $680 for two TVs (adding in the cost of a Mini), the Bolt Vox OTA is priced like the Rolls Royce of cord-cutting solutions. But there are a couple of problems there: first, cord-cutters are pretty price sensitive by nature, and second, despite the high price, the Bolt OTA still isn't full-featured enough to satisfy all cord-cutters.

This would seem to be the profile of someone for whom the Bolt OTA would be a good choice:

watches a whole lot of programming from networks like ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, PBS, The CW, etc.
easily gets good OTA reception on all the channels they care about
wants a high-quality DVR experience that feels a lot like a high-end cable or satellite box
values the video quality of OTA TV that has not been re-compressed or otherwise degraded by their device
watches streaming less than OTA TV and streams only from Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime Video, Vudu and YouTube with no need for apps for HBO Now, Showtime, Starz, CBS All Access, PBS, The CW, Tubi, ESPN+, etc. or any of the cable replacement services like DirecTV Now, Sling, YouTube TV, etc. (or is content with switching inputs for streaming and using the TiVo only for OTA TV)
either does not own a 4K HDR TV or is OK with streaming only 4K (but not HDR) content from just Netflix and Amazon (or is content with switching inputs for streaming and using the TiVo only for OTA TV)
doesn't care about having a TV-connected device that integrates into either the Apple/iOS or Google/Android ecosystem
watching live or recorded OTA TV on mobile devices, either in- or out-of-home, is relatively unimportant
So, as has long been the case with TiVo, a happy buyer is probably someone who cares more about traditional TV than streaming. They're probably also someone who has had traditional cable or satellite TV and wants to preserve that DVR user experience as much as possible while cutting out of the cost of cable TV programming and yet they are ready to spend several hundreds of dollars up-front to make that switch.

Are there such niche buyers out there? Yes. Mostly those over 50, I would imagine, for various reasons. Are there enough of them to make this product successful? I dunno. This product, to me, feels sort of like if Mercedes Benz made a tiny underpowered subcompact car the size of a Smart car, but decked out with high-end leather seats, all the creature comforts and bling, and a high Mercedes price too. Would many people who could afford that car be in the market for something so tiny?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> This product, to me, feels sort of like if Mercedes Benz made a tiny underpowered subcompact car the size of a Smart car, but decked out with high-end leather seats, all the creature comforts and bling, and a high Mercedes price too. Would many people who could afford that car be in the market for something so tiny?


Perhaps humorously:


> The design concept for the company's (Smart's) automobiles began at Mercedes-Benz in the early-70s and late-80s.


Smart (marque) - Wikipedia


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

PJO1966 said:


> I was dubious about paying for lifetime service. I did the math and saw that I would need to have the Bolt OTA for three years for it to make sense. I looked up how long I've had the Roamio and was supprised to see I've had it for five years. Couple that with the fact that I'll be saving $130/mo by unplugging from Spectrum and it's a no brainier. I'll also be able to sell the Roamio, one TiVo Mini, and either an Apple TV or a Nvidia Shield (depending on which one I decide to keep).
> 
> The only other variable is the results from an antenna, but I think I'll be ok with that.
> 
> Now if I could only get my hands on one.


Why not keep the Mini? We are OTA only and use two BOLT's and two Mini's in the house.

I keep two BOLT's because I change internet providers when there are good deals and right now I am waiting for an Xfinity promo for free HBO with a basic local channel package and internet. Then I'll pop a cable card in one of the BOLT's just to get HBO on it.

craigr


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

chicagobrownblue said:


> And you should post your problems in a separate thread. This is not rocket science.
> 
> My TV has a tuner so that is a fifth source of content. I have a Fire TV stick which is a sixth source of content. I have a Netflix subscription. I don't miss anything.
> 
> I have cable in addition to the six major OTA networks and do not have a problem. As others have pointed out, you can buy another 4-tuner OTA but, it would be better to figure out a smart solution.


Good for you. You keep ignoring that others do.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> You keep ignoring that others do.


I don't think anyone is ignoring anything rather simply pointing out there are easy solutions.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Charles R said:


> I don't think anyone is ignoring anything rather simply pointing out there are easy solutions.


Whatever. He keeps saying he doesn't have a problem. That is downplaying others issues. He has said it is only OTA. There isn't that much to record. On and on.


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have a way to connect your signal source to our billing system in order to accomplish this. Because of the difference in pricing, very few BOLT 500GB customers connect their devices to OTA. If you call customer support, they may have a way to offer you a reduced monthly fee if you've been paying full price for a while.


Thanks for the response, @TiVo_Ted. Unfortunately, I don't understand. You said, "Because of the difference in pricing, very few BOLT 500GB customers connect their devices to OTA." Huh?

Three years ago there was only this single BOLT (two different hard drive sizes but no OTA-only variant). That BOLT supported OTA. Are you saying I should have gone Roamio and skipped that BOLT? If so, why did TiVo even offer OTA in it? I'm confused by what you're saying...

That aside, it is unfortunate that TiVo doesn't have a thoughtful response for existing OTA customers. I guess I'll take my shot with the customer service agent(s)... Wish me luck... It feels like dealing with Comcast now... Is that what TiVo really wants for its current customers... (sigh)

I must confess that I am disappointed by all of this. I know that actions will speak louder than words but I have to confess that when it comes time to buy that next TiVo or TiVo Mini, it will sure be tempting just to swap the entire setup out for the Amazon offering. Harder and harder to justify the costs. Yes the experience is better but the competition is catching up fast and it is getting more difficult to justify the higher costs. My $0.02, anyway...


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> He keeps saying he doesn't have a problem. That is downplaying others issues.


Rather I see a suggestion to resolve said problem. No one is going to state four tuners (regardless of how they are implemented) will handle everyone's desire.



chicagobrownblue said:


> And you should post your problems in a separate thread.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have a way to connect your signal source to our billing system


This is the problem with TiVo. It cannot make money doing what its customers want.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

wizwor said:


> This is the problem with TiVo. It cannot make money doing what its customers want.


Is it that TiVo can't make money doing what its customers want or that TiVo won't do what its customers want?


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

just4tivo said:


> Is it that TiVo can't make money doing what its customers want or that TiVo won't do what its customers want?


Most companies are in business to make money. I assume TiVo would delight its customers if it could make money doing so. The problem is that it is tough to make money delighting customers who want to pay less. TiVo is about selling a service which, to some extent, is available for free.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have a way to connect your signal source to our billing system in order to accomplish this.





wizwor said:


> This is the problem with TiVo.


Many customers will be happy to hear this as it keeps remote the likelihood that TiVo will clamp down on CableCARD-converted Roamio OTAs.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

wizwor said:


> Most companies are in business to make money. I assume TiVo would delight its customers if it could make money doing so. The problem is that it is tough to make money delighting customers who want to pay less. TiVo is about selling a service which, to some extent, is available for free.


I was happy to pay $399 for a Roamio OTA and continue to be happy as long as the guide is accurate.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> This product, to me, feels sort of like if Mercedes Benz made a tiny underpowered subcompact car the size of a Smart car, but decked out with high-end leather seats, all the creature comforts and bling, and a high Mercedes price too. Would many people who could afford that car be in the market for something so tiny?


Excellent post as always. It's the Lexus CT of DVRs!



Charles R said:


> Rather I see a suggestion to resolve said problem. No one is going to state four tuners (regardless of how they are implemented) will handle everyone's desire.


Just wait another year or two. At the rate that network TV is going downhill, even the OTA power users today won't be using more than two tuners by then. As it is, I don't think mine ever goes over 2 active.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> Just wait another year or two. At the rate that network TV is going downhill, even the OTA power users today won't be using more than two tuners by then. As it is, I don't think mine ever goes over 2 active.


We have 4 distinct PBS stations.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

krkaufman said:


> Many customers will be happy to hear this as it keeps remote the likelihood that TiVo will clamp down on CableCARD-converted Roamio OTAs.


TiVo could kill off that "hidden feature" anytime they wanted with a software update to all Roamio OTA boxes, but I'm guessing that the number of people taking advantage of this are probably too small for TiVo to care enough to devote the resources to it.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

tarheelblue32 said:


> TiVo could kill off that "hidden feature" anytime they wanted with a software update to all Roamio OTA boxes, but I'm guessing that the number of people taking advantage of this are probably too small for TiVo to care enough to devote the resources to it.


That logic probably applies to a television with its vsb and QAM tuners. There are so few LP stations with analog and so few clear QAM channels, yet the cost for a new generation of tuners probably would not be cost effective. A few television companies have gone tunerless. I guess that's one solution.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> We have 4 distinct PBS stations.


That's a good one, I'll give you that, but really, they usually show pretty much the same stuff.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Bigg said:


> That's a good one, I'll give you that, but really, they usually show pretty much the same stuff.


In my market, there's a main channel for the "national" stuff like Nova, Frontline, Masterpiece, Great Performances, etc. Secondary channel for kids only 24x7. Third for state/local programming. And 4th for travel, cooking, etc. Last two do show some kids stuff during the day and a few reruns of the main channel stuff in the wee hours of the morning, but not much overlap among them other than that.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> That's a good one, I'll give you that, but really, they usually show pretty much the same stuff.


I think the most I've had is 3 PBS shows being recorded simultaneously, although that's rare. 2 is a sometimes occurrence. A nice thing is that shows sometimes are repeated during the midnight-early a.m. period, and so can be caught up on then, if need be.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Bigg said:


> Just wait another year or two. At the rate that network TV is going downhill, even the OTA power users today won't be using more than two tuners by then.





Mikeguy said:


> We have 4 distinct PBS stations.


It's image quality for me. Our PBS converted to 720p since their 1080i looked so bad... they have three channels (two HD), ABC four, CW five, NBC three (two HD), FOX four and CBS three. So many sub-channels none of them look HD. The other night we started watching a show and it looked so bad I came close to simply deleting it. There are some shows I don't bother to record because of the issue. Like I did with Dish someday I might pull the plug and say enough is enough and never look back.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Bigg said:


> Just wait another year or two. At the rate that network TV is going downhill, even the OTA power users today won't be using more than two tuners by then. As it is, I don't think mine ever goes over 2 active.


In the case of TiVo and the other Whole House DVRs, external connections drive the desire for more tuners.

Before we fired Comcast, I _*studied*_ my family's viewing habits. We had one DVR at the time and it was full of unwatched episodes of Who Wants to be a Millionaire and Bonnie Hunt. I decided we did not need a DVR and no one challenged that. About a minute after returning the Comcast hardware, I realized we actually used a DVR all day long -- when dinner was ready, when the phone rang, when we dozed off during a show, and to get a good look at that wardrobe malfunction.

For the record, I do not agree with your assessment of network television. There are some really good shows on right now...

NFL Football
The Big Bang Theory
Young Sheldon
Blue Bloods
Modern Family
Life in Pieces
The Goldbergs
Man with a Plan
For me, though, most watching is of the 'Diginets'. I love what H&I has done with their weekday programming. You could definitely make the case for an eight hour manual recording for any day of the week.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Charles R said:


> It's image quality for me. Our PBS converted to 720p since their 1080i looked so bad... they have three channels (two HD), ABC four, CW five, NBC three (two HD), FOX four and CBS three. So many sub-channels none of them look HD. The other night we started watching a show and it looked so bad I came close to simply deleting it. There are some shows I don't bother to record because of the issue. Like I did with Dish someday I might pull the plug and say enough is enough and never look back.


Try Hulu. I'm sometimes shocked at how good HD content from ABC, NBC or Fox looks on Hulu. (FYI, they do stream at least some stuff in 1080p now. They used to be only 720p.) Hulu's PQ is definitely a step up from my local OTA signals.

And there's also the PBS app too for streaming their stuff. IMO, that app's PQ is OK but not great -- a little too compressed. But my local PBS station still looks quite good (one 1080i, two 480i), so that's what I'm comparing it to. In your case, the PBS app may look better than your OTA.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Hulu does a great job. The problem with streaming is inconsistency. A lot of the specialty streamers aren’t so good. And example is BTN2GO


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Excellent post as always. It's the Lexus CT of DVRs!
> 
> Just wait another year or two. At the rate that network TV is going downhill, even the OTA power users today won't be using more than two tuners by then. As it is, I don't think mine ever goes over 2 active.


I am using all four tuners concurrently, almost daily, with my Roamio Basic on OTA.

And then with my two Bolts on cable, I regularly use five to seven tuners concurrently.

I record a lot of things. I'll actually watch much less than 10% of that. But I want a wide variety of content to choose from when I sit down to watch broadcast/cable content. Since I never know what I will be in the mood to watch.


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## kjacks (Oct 26, 2015)

I am a long time existing TIVO and current Roamio OTA customer. I pay monthly. I haven't seen addressed if $6.99 is going to be the new monthly charge for ALL ota dvr's. Called this morning and was told Roamio OTA will stay at $14.99. This is the kind of stuff that really pisses me off. I'm fine to pay what TIVO thinks the OTA service is worth. Even a monthly subscription as I like tivo and want them to survive. But this is just garbage.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

kjacks said:


> I am a long time existing TIVO and current Roamio OTA customer. I pay monthly. I haven't seen addressed if $6.99 is going to be the new monthly charge for ALL ota dvr's. Called this morning and was told Roamio OTA will stay at $14.99. This is the kind of stuff that really pisses me off. I'm fine to pay what TIVO thinks the OTA service is worth. Even a monthly subscription as I like tivo and want them to survive. But this is just garbage.


You have no good justification to be pissed off. You're paying what you agreed to pay when you bought it. If you have a Roamio OTA that's on a monthly plan, then you probably only paid $50 for it when you bought it. Your discount was the lower upfront purchase price, the Bolt OTA buyers get their discount in the lower service fees. If you want the lower monthly service fee, go buy a Bolt OTA.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

kjacks said:


> I am a long time existing TIVO and current Roamio OTA customer. I pay monthly. I haven't seen addressed if $6.99 is going to be the new monthly charge for ALL ota dvr's. Called this morning and was told Roamio OTA will stay at $14.99. This is the kind of stuff that really pisses me off. I'm fine to pay what TIVO thinks the OTA service is worth. Even a monthly subscription as I like tivo and want them to survive. But this is just garbage.


Wouldn't it have made more sense to buy lifetime in the beginning?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> Wouldn't it have made more sense to buy lifetime in the beginning?


Then he'd just be pissed off that the Bolt OTA buyers can get all-in service for only $250 when he had to pay more. You can't please some people.


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## kjacks (Oct 26, 2015)

Well that's not really the point of my post but sure. At the time I had just dumped directv after they had slowly turned my tivo into a brick and was not sure about sticking with the OTA only solution long enough the recoup my costs. Later every time I thought about it I'd think "am I really gong to stick with this for another 2 years?" Right now it looks like the answer is no.

And I still think 2 OTA only products with different monthly fees is crap.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

kjacks said:


> And I still think 2 OTA only products with different monthly fees is crap.


As many companies that generate revenue from monthly service fees do TiVo seems more interested in snaring new customers that treating the ones they have with respect.

TiVo customers are a FREE promotion and support service for TiVo yet we get little to no respect.
How many of us are responsible for generating new TiVo customers?
How many of us are responsible for a new TiVo customer not cancelling service because we, and this forum, resolved their problems?

There's always a great deal on DTV or Dish or Verizon or AT&T for enticing new customers but those deals are not available to current customers regardless of "time served" or payment history.

Companies cry like little babies when their CHURN numbers go up not realizing that they themselves may be inducing the churn.

On the other hand in some industries customers jump from one provider to another every two years to get the great deal then these companies cry about that.

For us, feature for feature I have not found a viable alternative to TiVo so I bought two Roamio OTAs with lifetime because of the short return on investment considering the monthly savings of the monthly cost of the pay TV I dumped. Lifetime seemed preferable to paying month after month after month.


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## kjacks (Oct 26, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Then he'd just be pissed off that the Bolt OTA buyers can get all-in service for only $250 when he had to pay more. You can't please some people.


I've had tivo's for ~15 years and my 7 posts over that time surely represent constant complaining.
I don't actually care what tivo decides to charge for their service fee. If it's worth it to me I'll pay it. I just think this is a shortsighted move by a company and a product I like. Is it too much to ask them to pick a number?

Also it's a public service. Anyone who has a roamio OTA and pays monthly doesn't have to call support and ask if the fee is changing.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

My Bolt OTA has been delivered. Hopefully I'll have a chance to get it set up after work tonight.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

PJO1966 said:


> My Bolt OTA has been delivered. Hopefully I'll have a chance to get it set up after work tonight.


Congratulations--enjoy!


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

kjacks said:


> And I still think 2 OTA only products with different monthly fees is crap.


There almost is only one OTA product: the Roamio OTA is on the way out (currently only available as a refurb at the TiVo store/Outlet section), effectively being supplanted by the Bolt VOX OTA.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mdavej said:


> In my market, there's a main channel for the "national" stuff like Nova, Frontline, Masterpiece, Great Performances, etc. Secondary channel for kids only 24x7. Third for state/local programming. And 4th for travel, cooking, etc. Last two do show some kids stuff during the day and a few reruns of the main channel stuff in the wee hours of the morning, but not much overlap among them other than that.


You're talking about a subchannel? I ignore the subchannels, I can't bear to watch over-compressed 480i.



Charles R said:


> It's image quality for me. Our PBS converted to 720p since their 1080i looked so bad... they have three channels (two HD), ABC four, CW five, NBC three (two HD), FOX four and CBS three. So many sub-channels none of them look HD. The other night we started watching a show and it looked so bad I came close to simply deleting it. There are some shows I don't bother to record because of the issue. Like I did with Dish someday I might pull the plug and say enough is enough and never look back.


Yeah, the image quality on many broadcast channels is just pathetic. Luckily our local PBS is doing 12mbps MPEG-2 1080i, which looks pretty good, even though it doesn't quite have the same "pop" that higher bitrates have. The NYC stations look gorgeous, as some of them are doing 17mbps+. Most subchannels are 480i, as they are old junk anyway. I've cut back on OTA, but there are a few things I really enjoy watching like SNL plus my normal lineup of PBS shows.



wizwor said:


> For the record, I do not agree with your assessment of network television. There are some really good shows on right now...
> 
> NFL Football
> The Big Bang Theory
> ...


For one, that's just not that many shows. I don't know when each is on, but how many conflicts does that really create?

Secondly, I'd argue a lot of those shows are junk, with the exception of Big Bang Theory, which is on it's last season, and Young Sheldon, which is also presumably on it's last season.

I have OPs for a whole bunch of PBS shows, none of which need padding, re-runs of This Old House on the CW, SNL, MTP, Big Bang Theory, Young Sheldon, and 60 Minutes. It's literally a total of 3 channels that I even watch, so even with a CBS-CBS padding conflict at the end of Big Bang Theory, I still have enough tuners.

The Diginets are junk, most of it is old re-runs, and they're not in HD for the most part. It's sad that they exist, as they are just wasting bandwidth that could be used to deliver a single HD channel in glorious 19.3mbps MPEG-2 1080i.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I sound so down on TV other than PBS... I'm actually really excited about TV, more so than ever. YouTube has incredible stuff, like Wendover Productions' mini-documentaries, as well as a number of other documentary and special interest channels. Netflix has created some incredible originals, including many in 4k that are absolutely stunning. I haven't even scratched the surface of Hulu and Showtime originals, but I love HBO, Amazon, and Netflix, and I have a blacklog of *848 *hours of content just between Netflix, Amazon, HBO, Showtime, and Hulu that I want to watch. I think this is the most exciting time for TV in the history of the medium, even as broadcast and cable is dying.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Bigg said:


> I sound so down on TV other than PBS... I'm actually really excited about TV, more so than ever. YouTube has incredible stuff, like Wendover Productions' mini-documentaries, as well as a number of other documentary and special interest channels. Netflix has created some incredible originals, including many in 4k that are absolutely stunning. I haven't even scratched the surface of Hulu and Showtime originals, but I love HBO, Amazon, and Netflix, and I have a blacklog of *848 *hours of content just between Netflix, Amazon, HBO, Showtime, and Hulu that I want to watch. I think this is the most exciting time for TV in the history of the medium, even as broadcast and cable is dying.


Getting back to OTA for cord cutters wanting to save money...

How much are the monthly charges you incur to get that backlog of *848 *hours of content from Netflix, Amazon, HBO, Showtime, and Hulu?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

kjacks said:


> And I still think 2 OTA only products with different monthly fees is crap.


How much did you pay for your Roamio OTA when you bought it? I'm guessing it was $50. People buying the Bolt OTA have to pay $250. My basic math skills say that's $200 more. So it will take Bolt OTA buyers over 2 years of paying their lower monthly fees before they make up that difference. You got all your discount up front while their discount is spread out over years of discounted service. What I think is crap is that you think you deserve an even bigger discount than you already received.


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> There almost is only one OTA product: the Roamio OTA is on the way out (currently only available as a refurb at the TiVo store/Outlet section), effectively being supplanted by the Bolt VOX OTA.


Why does no one remember that the original BOLT has OTA capability, too?!


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> How much did you pay for your Roamio OTA when you bought it? I'm guessing it was $50. People buying the Bolt OTA have to pay $250. My basic math skills say that's $200 more. So it will take Bolt OTA buyers over 2 years of paying their lower monthly fees before they make up that difference. You got all your discount up front while their discount is spread out over years of discounted service. What I think is crap is that you think you deserve an even bigger discount than you already received.


Relax. Unless you work for the TiVo marketing department, you don't need to defend TiVo so tirelessly. Let the person have their opinion - they're entitled to it.

I, too, feel slightly jaded about buying the first TiVo BOLT (which has OTA) and then seeing this announcement. My $300 box was not subsidized upfront nor was my annual $149.99/yr service discounted at all. Yes, I agreed to it when I bought it but if they can lower the price for these new OTA buyers, why not the rest of us? Seems a bit unfair. And, yes, that is my opinion.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

jedimindtrick said:


> Why does no one remember that the original BOLT has OTA capability, too?!


I do and I have one. But the Bolt OTA is different from using the OTA in the original Bolt and purchasing that box for that purpose: the former box/package includes the possibility of All-In or monthly subscription at a significant discount.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

jedimindtrick said:


> Why does no one remember that the original BOLT has OTA capability, too?!


I believe the original context was "OTA-only," of which there are only 2 models (eliminating drive capacity and remote control variables).


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> I do and I have one. But the Bolt OTA is different from using the OTA in the original Bolt and purchasing that box for that purpose: the former box/package includes the possibility of All-In or monthly subscription at a significant discount.


I don't understand. Is it different? How would using the original BOLT for OTA be different from using this new BOLT OTA for watching the same stuff? Isn't it the same purpose?

And did I miss it? Are you saying the original BOLT offered service at a significant discount? I never saw it - maybe I missed something? Ever year when I go to renew service at tivo.com, I never get offered anything for All-In, either.


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

krkaufman said:


> I believe the original context was "OTA-only," of which there are only 2 models (eliminating drive capacity and remote control variables).


I see. Yes, from an OTA-only hardware perspective, I understand. Thanks for clarifying.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

I think it would be interesting if TiVo were to switch their service costs to a source-specific model, as it might open the door to other “in-app”-ish add-ons, such as networked CableCARD or OTA (eventually ATSC 3.0) tuners.


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## jedimindtrick (Oct 18, 2015)

jedimindtrick said:


> ... Ever year when I go to renew service at tivo.com, I never get offered anything for All-In, either.


Of course I just went to check the tivo.com website just now and now I do get an offer to add lifetime all-in. For $549.99! Ouch.


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

jedimindtrick said:


> Relax. Unless you work for the TiVo marketing department, you don't need to defend TiVo so tirelessly. Let the person have their opinion - they're entitled to it.


As I am entitled to mine.



jedimindtrick said:


> I, too, feel slightly jaded about buying the first TiVo BOLT (which has OTA) and then seeing this announcement. My $300 box was not subsidized upfront nor was my annual $149.99/yr service discounted at all. Yes, I agreed to it when I bought it but if they can lower the price for these new OTA buyers, why not the rest of us? Seems a bit unfair. And, yes, that is my opinion.


Early adopters always pay more. If you don't like paying more for technology, then you should always wait a few years until prices drop.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

jedimindtrick said:


> I don't understand. Is it different? How would using the original BOLT for OTA be different from using this new BOLT OTA for watching the same stuff? Isn't it the same purpose?
> 
> And did I miss it? Are you saying the original BOLT offered service at a significant discount? I never saw it - maybe I missed something? Ever year when I go to renew service at tivo.com, I never get offered anything for All-In, either.


The use is the same (with one caveat, mentioned below). And physically and apart from hard drive sizes, the Bolt OTA is the same as the original Bolt for OTA, with the exception that the Bolt OTA does not have a cable card adapter built in (it's unnecessary, of course) and does not have MoCA hardware/capability built in (this could matter to some people).

But it's the additional subscription pricing that is majorly different: with the new Bolt OTA, you can get All-In (Lifetime) for $250, or monthly (1-year minimum) at $7/month / annual at $70; with the original Bolt being used for OTA, those "discounted," lower rates are not available--e.g. All-In, as you just discovered, is significantly more expensive, at $550 (prices rounded here).

That's been the appeal of the "OTA-dedicated" boxes: the significantly lower total price after factoring in All-In (or now, with the Bolt OTA, factoring in the lower price of a monthly or annual subscription).​


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

PJO1966 said:


> But the $500 for the Bolt OTA includes lifetime service. If you keep it for more than three years you're better off than paying monthly.


The $399 TiVo OTA also includes "All In" aka Lifetime. $100 difference may not seem like a big deal but when I suggest a TiVo to new cord cutters they are very reluctant to spend $399. $500.00 will completely turn them off.


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

TonyD79 said:


> It was an EXAMPLE of one network chewing up two tuners. I have had conflicts with OTA channels only. You do know that there are six major OTA networks, right?


Not to mention a slew of sub channels which some of us do record. Having all four tuners in use can be a regular occurance with us. We get by anyway just by making sure we prioritize our One Pass list to not miss the most important shows.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

PJO1966 said:


> But the $500 for the Bolt OTA includes lifetime service. If you keep it for more than three years you're better off than paying monthly.


The difference in cost between a Roamio OTA and the new Bolt OTA is a question the buyer must resolve... BUT bear in mind there still seems to be a difference in reception between those two models and that might be important depending on location.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

TeamPace said:


> The $399 TiVo OTA also includes "All In" aka Lifetime. $100 difference may not seem like a big deal but when I suggest a TiVo to new cord cutters they are very reluctant to spend $399. $500.00 will completely turn them off.


For those bailing on cable/sat who pay a lot monthly for those services the $100 difference between TiVos may be less of a concern for the months it will take to recover their TiVo investment.

For those just OTA people who are wanting a DVR the $100 difference may be important.

If the Bolt OTA can receive stations as well as the Roamio OTA that's great but it is all we have available.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> Getting back to OTA for cord cutters wanting to save money...
> 
> How much are the monthly charges you incur to get that backlog of *848 *hours of content from Netflix, Amazon, HBO, Showtime, and Hulu?


A heck of a lot less than for the equivalent amount of cable or satellite TV, that's for sure! I have Netflix, my parents have HBO, I use their HBO Go, my dad uses my Netflix, and Amazon Prime Video is basically free, since Amazon Prime the shipping service is basically like running water at this point. I will subscribe to Showtime and Hulu individually when I want to binge show from those channels and then drop them afterwards.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TeamPace said:


> The $399 TiVo OTA also includes "All In" aka Lifetime. $100 difference may not seem like a big deal but when I suggest a TiVo to new cord cutters they are very reluctant to spend $399. $500.00 will completely turn them off.


Of course, the BOLT OTA can be had for just $250 at full price, then $7/month or $70/year ... giving 3 to 3 1/2 year's service before eating-up the $250 All-In fee (or approx. 2 years before hitting the Roamio OTA cost).


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

Mikeguy said:


> There almost is only one OTA product: the Roamio OTA is on the way out (currently only available as a refurb at the TiVo store/Outlet section), effectively being supplanted by the Bolt VOX OTA.


Just bought two new Roamio OTA Vox from Best Buy. Wanted to grab them while they're still available. Unfortunately I've had significant OTA reception issues with Bolt.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Bigg said:


> A heck of a lot less than for the equivalent amount of cable or satellite TV, that's for sure!


According to my math "a heck of a lot less" doesn't equal OTA for free?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

TeamPace said:


> The $399 TiVo OTA also includes "All In" aka Lifetime. $100 difference may not seem like a big deal but when I suggest a TiVo to new cord cutters they are very reluctant to spend $399. $500.00 will completely turn them off.


It_ is_ a psychological issue, isn't it. $500 (ok, $499.99; but then, there may be significant tax, depending on the location) just feels like a lot, and a major jump from sub-$400, which just feels easier to stomach. (And I'm not meaning to suggest that it isn't a lot in actuality as well--and after all, for most people, this is "just" a time-shifting and recording device, although not meaning to demean the remote--a marvel--and the various forms of trickplay, including SkipMode, QuickMode, and the 8-second rewind.)


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

krkaufman said:


> I think it would be interesting if TiVo were to switch their service costs to a source-specific model, as it might open the door to other "in-app"-ish add-ons, such as networked CableCARD or OTA (eventually ATSC 3.0) tuners.


For OTA, TiVo should offer a PSIP powered 'low end' DVR with no connectivity requirements and charge a premium service fee that adds other features to the same hardware. Among the 'other features' would be hardware repair/replacement.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

wizwor said:


> For OTA, TiVo should offer a PSIP powered 'low end' DVR with no connectivity requirements


TiVo seems too tied to leveraging their customers for ad revenue to give up the live connection.

(Extended warranty and Continual Care at already cover the repair/replacement angle.)


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

https://explore.tivo.com/content/dam/tivo/explore/how-to/BOLT_VOX_OTA_ARRIS_2018_Setup.pdf

Looks like we have confirmation of a couple things. Arris is the new hardware partner.

Also, the FCC compliance section lists a new SKU (a 6-tuner, 1 TB, cable model).


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## fredi (Apr 1, 2017)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Early adopters always pay more. If you don't like paying more for technology, then you should always wait a few years until prices drop.


I bought my first TiVo Series 2 in January 2003 with Lifetime Service, six months later they offered to copy the Lifetime Service over if I bought another Series 2. A few years later they made the same offer if I purchased a HD TiVo. When they killed off the Amazon app they offered me a Roamio Plus with free lifetime service. I recently traded in my two Series2 for 4-Tuner Bolts. I think I've done OK.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> https://explore.tivo.com/content/dam/tivo/explore/how-to/BOLT_VOX_OTA_ARRIS_2018_Setup.pdf
> 
> Looks like we have confirmation of a couple things. Arris is the new hardware partner.
> 
> Also, the FCC compliance section lists a new SKU (a 6-tuner, 1 TB, cable model).


That's great news to long time TiVo users.


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

fredi said:


> I bought my first TiVo Series 2 in January 2003 with Lifetime Service, six months later they offered to copy the Lifetime Service over if I bought another Series 2. A few years later they made the same offer if I purchased a HD TiVo. When they killed off the Amazon app they offered me a Roamio Plus with free lifetime service. I recently traded in my two Series2 for 4-Tuner Bolts. I think I've done OK.


I've managed to pay my Lifetime / All in service forward as well.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> https://explore.tivo.com/content/dam/tivo/explore/how-to/BOLT_VOX_OTA_ARRIS_2018_Setup.pdf
> 
> Looks like we have confirmation of a couple things. Arris is the new hardware partner.


So it's Arris, as we all figured. Good to know.

When supplies of the Roamio OTA became very scarce in late summer, I figured that product was being discontinued and that it would be replaced with a new product manufactured by the new outside partner.

I also figured that the replacement product probably wouldn't be offered only with lifetime service included, like the Roamio OTA had been for the past couple years. Because if Arris is only making a profit on hardware sales (with TiVo taking in all of the service fee revenue), then it's not in Arris's interest to inflate the base price of the device by forcing lifetime service on the buyer. Pricing the Bolt OTA at $500 (with lifetime included) would, I assume, result in no more profit per box sold for Arris but it would almost certainly result in fewer boxes sold than if the product were priced like it is, at $250 with service fees charged separately at various price points for monthly, annually and lifetime.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

wizwor said:


> For OTA, TiVo should offer a PSIP powered 'low end' DVR with no connectivity requirements and charge a premium service fee that adds other features to the same hardware.


A PSIP version would give them very few sales and "tarnish" the TiVo brand. The average consumer wouldn't put up with PSIP for a day... even most nerds wouldn't... I certainly punted once I saw what was available locally.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> My Bolt OTA has been delivered. Hopefully I'll have a chance to get it set up after work tonight.


Unsurprisingly, the indoor antenna did next to nothing. I have an antenna being installed on the roof this Saturday. For now, the Bolt is being used in place of a Mini to stream from my Roamio. I actually like the Hydra interface. The back button will take some getting used to, but I think it looks great.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

Charles R said:


> A PSIP version would give them very few sales and "tarnish" the TiVo brand. The average consumer wouldn't put up with PSIP for a day... even most nerds wouldn't... I certainly punted once I saw what was available locally.


Yeah ...

+1 here on that ...

With the exception of FCC mandated and other really essential PSIP info. sent in the TVCT of something for station ID and virtual channel mapping.

The EPG info. a given TV station sends out in the EIT is optional and really a "feast" or "famine" (mostly famine) experience.

I've always wanted PSIP based EPG (if any were available) as a backup feature for TiVo OTA DVRs for situations where no EPG info. is available from TiVo's servers. But that's about it ....

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Also, the FCC compliance section lists a new SKU (a 6-tuner, 1 TB, cable model).


Interesting. It will probably be priced at $399. So there will be 5 different Bolt models to choose from. I'm guessing they'll probably get rid of at least one, likely the 500GB 4-tuner OTA/cable Bolt since they have the Bolt OTA now for the more price conscious OTA crowd.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I thought I had read that TiVo was adding HDMI-CEC capabilities, but the Bolt OTA does not seem to have it. Now that I'm googling, I've found nothing mentioning it. Was I hallucinating?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

PJO1966 said:


> I thought I had read that TiVo was adding HDMI-CEC capabilities, but the Bolt OTA does not seem to have it. Now that I'm googling, I've found nothing mentioning it. Was I hallucinating?


No, it has been promised. Maybe for Christmas?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

NashGuy said:


> I also figured that the replacement product probably wouldn't be offered only with lifetime service included, like the Roamio OTA had been for the past couple years. Because if Arris is only making a profit on hardware sales (with TiVo taking in all of the service fee revenue), then it's not in Arris's interest to inflate the base price of the device by forcing lifetime service on the buyer. Pricing the Bolt OTA at $500 (with lifetime included) would, I assume, result in no more profit per box sold for Arris but it would almost certainly result in fewer boxes sold than if the product were priced like it is, at $250 with service fees charged separately at various price points for monthly, annually and lifetime.


I was thinking something similar. When the Mini Vox came out for $180 I was wondering if the price was due to both companies getting a piece of the pie. No longer subsidizing.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> According to my math "a heck of a lot less" doesn't equal OTA for free?


And what is your point? The streaming is in addition to OTA. OTA alone isn't enough for anyone who wants to watch more than just the very basic TV.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> I thought I had read that TiVo was adding HDMI-CEC capabilities, but the Bolt OTA does not seem to have it. Now that I'm googling, I've found nothing mentioning it. Was I hallucinating?


TiVo Preps Significant System Enhancements

(Hydra-only, at present ... when it finally rolls out)


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Bigg said:


> And what is your point? The streaming is in addition to OTA. OTA alone isn't enough for anyone who wants to watch more than just the very basic TV.


As stated earlier numerous times in this thread...

Cord cutting at it's most basic is OTA only and OTA is enough for many viewers. Then we contemplate the luxury of a DVR.

I don't criticize your decision to spend what you want on TV, in all its forms, don't tell me I have to spend more than I choose to or that my viewing habits satisfy me any less than yours satisfy you.

With 50+ free OTA channels at my convenience and the luxury of our Roamio OTA we have far more to view that interests us than we can watch so if "very basic TV" means more than we need or can watch then that's what we choose.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> As stated earlier numerous times in this thread...
> 
> Cord cutting at it's most basic is OTA only and OTA is enough for many viewers. Then we contemplate the luxury of a DVR.


Cord cutting includes OTT SVOD, but should not include vMVPDs, even though many people misuse and abuse the term that way. OTT SVOD is really what brought cord cutting into the mainstream. Getting back to my point, I'm very excited about TV in general right now, as even though cable and OTA don't have much on, OTT SVOD is where all the action is, and it's cheaper and more exciting than ever, with more options, more convenient ways to watch, and more creative formats and niches being explored.



> I don't criticize your decision to spend what you want on TV, in all its forms, don't tell me I have to spend more than I choose to or that my viewing habits satisfy me any less than yours satisfy you.
> 
> With 50+ free OTA channels at my convenience and the luxury of our Roamio OTA we have far more to view that interests us than we can watch so if "very basic TV" means more than we need or can watch then that's what we choose.


I didn't say you had to watch much TV or want to spend money on TV. I simply said there's basically nothing on OTA, but that nonetheless, I am more excited than ever about what is going on in the TV space due to OTT SVOD. If you want to go read a book, go read a book, just don't claim there's much to watch on OTA, because there isn't. If you only want to watch a couple hours of TV a week, then OTA might be enough. You were never the market for cable or satellite to begin with if you don't watch much TV in the first place.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Bigg said:


> ... just don't claim there's much to watch on OTA, because there isn't. If you only want to watch a couple hours of TV a week, then OTA might be enough. You were never the market for cable or satellite to begin with if you don't watch much TV in the first place.


Sez you... You don't know me or my viewing habits yet you judge. You just open your mouth to change feet.

You are exactly the customer pay and streaming TV craves today. More money than sense and an 800+ hour backlog of TV you will never watch.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Cord cutting includes OTT SVOD, but should not include vMVPDs, even though many people misuse and abuse the term that way. OTT SVOD is really what brought cord cutting into the mainstream. Getting back to my point, I'm very excited about TV in general right now, as even though cable and OTA don't have much on, OTT SVOD is where all the action is, and it's cheaper and more exciting than ever, with more options, more convenient ways to watch, and more creative formats and niches being explored.
> 
> I didn't say you had to watch much TV or want to spend money on TV. I simply said there's basically nothing on OTA, but that nonetheless, I am more excited than ever about what is going on in the TV space due to OTT SVOD. If you want to go read a book, go read a book, just don't claim there's much to watch on OTA, because there isn't. If you only want to watch a couple hours of TV a week, then OTA might be enough. You were never the market for cable or satellite to begin with if you don't watch much TV in the first place.


Wow!! There is a ton of stuff to watch on OTA. If I didn't have access to cable or streaming I would be watching many hours each day. There are dozens of shows I would like to watch from OTA broadcasts if I had the time. And most people I know watch many shows from the local networks on cable. Which means they could watch them from OTA.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> Sez you... You don't know me or my viewing habits yet you judge. You just open your mouth to change feet.


What?



> You are exactly the customer pay and streaming TV craves today. More money than sense and an 800+ hour backlog of TV to watch.


That makes no sense. I already have 800+ hours of TV to watching WITHOUT pay TV, why the heck would I want their crappy service? Of course I want streaming, it's a good value for what I get, and they have good content!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> Wow!! There is a ton of stuff to watch on OTA. If I didn't have access to cable or streaming I would be watching many hours each day. There are dozens of shows I would like to watch from OTA broadcasts if I had the time. And most people I know watch many shows from the local networks on cable. Which means they could watch them from OTA.


Like what? PBS is great, but other than half a dozen or so shows on PBS, the pickings are pretty slim. I have a couple of NBC and CBS shows. I should probably just delete MTP, they have a podcast of that that's a way more efficient way to listen with no commercials and I can run it at 1.2x, and after this year, Big Bang Theory and Young Sheldon will be gone. That leaves me 60 Minutes and SNL, both of which I only watch parts of some episodes. Thank god for PBS, my TiVo needs something to record!


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

I bit on this, and bought a Bolt OTA. Got it Tuesday and had it up and running almost immediately.

I've been a TiVo customer since 2000, and this was the most painless upgrade I've ever had. Switching over season passes and existing recordings was stupid easy to do through their site. Somewhere along the line, TiVo got their **** together on the website with this stuff.

On the bottom it appears that all they did to make it from a regular Bolt to OTA was take out the part where you'd insert a cable card.  If you had the part required, I wonder if you could install it yourself. It just looks like the cable card reader was simply not installed.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

Joe Siegler said:


> ... It just looks like the cable card reader was simply not installed.


And the internal MoCA network adapter is gone too of course ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

HoTatII said:


> And the internal MoCA network adapter is gone too of course ...


That wasn't user accessible, though was it? Not without totally opening it up. I was talking solely about the cable card thing. (Probably could have phrased my original post better in that regard).


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Joe Siegler said:


> I bit on this, and bought a Bolt OTA. Got it Tuesday and had it up and running almost immediately.
> 
> I've been a TiVo customer since 2000, and this was the most painless upgrade I've ever had. Switching over season passes and existing recordings was stupid easy to do through their site. Somewhere along the line, TiVo got their **** together on the website with this stuff.
> 
> On the bottom it appears that all they did to make it from a regular Bolt to OTA was take out the part where you'd insert a cable card. If you had the part required, I wonder if you could install it yourself. It just looks like the cable card reader was simply not installed.


For the Roamio OTA, one could indeed add a cable card adapter, easily enough. There is a thread here on it.


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## HoTatII (Sep 21, 2016)

Joe Siegler said:


> That wasn't user accessible, though was it? Not without totally opening it up. I was talking solely about the cable card thing. (Probably could have phrased my original post better in that regard).


Well technically it's considered that it is and it isn't ...

While the CC "slot" is considered "user serviceable."

The CC "decoder" assembly itself is not even though it's physically accessible as is the slot of course. Though as the previous poster states and linked to, it's really easy enough for a user to install one.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

TiVo Bolt OTA review: For would-be cord-cutters with great antenna reception


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Joe Siegler said:


> That wasn't user accessible, though was it? Not without totally opening it up. I was talking solely about the cable card thing. (Probably could have phrased my original post better in that regard).


When you ran the initial Guided Setup, were you asked to chose between cable and OTA? That would be a good clue.

On a Roamio OTA, you add the bracket (about 35$) then insert the cable card. Hardest part is those tiny screws.

Roamio OTA cable card slot?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Lurker1 said:


> TiVo Bolt OTA review: For would-be cord-cutters with great antenna reception


Got some of it right, unfortunately some of it wrong, and ignored some of it (e.g. no mention of QuickMode, no mention of 30-second skip).


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> Got some of it right, unfortunately some of it wrong, and ignored some of it (e.g. no mention of QuickMode, no mention of 30-second skip).


Yeah, not technically accurate. But I do think the review accurately describes how a non-enthusiast will see things, and why Bolt OTA won't appeal to them.


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

Bigg said:


> Cord cutting includes OTT SVOD, but should not include vMVPDs, even though many people misuse and abuse the term that way. OTT SVOD is really what brought cord cutting into the mainstream. Getting back to my point, I'm very excited about TV in general right now, as even though cable and OTA don't have much on, OTT SVOD is where all the action is, and it's cheaper and more exciting than ever, with more options, more convenient ways to watch, and more creative formats and niches being explored.
> 
> I didn't say you had to watch much TV or want to spend money on TV. I simply said there's basically nothing on OTA, but that nonetheless, I am more excited than ever about what is going on in the TV space due to OTT SVOD. If you want to go read a book, go read a book, just don't claim there's much to watch on OTA, because there isn't. If you only want to watch a couple hours of TV a week, then OTA might be enough. You were never the market for cable or satellite to begin with if you don't watch much TV in the first place.


Obviously there are different opinions on this. We used OTA only for 7 or 8 years, much of that without any paid supplement like Netflix. Having a TiVo really helped! Our family of 4 did just fine and found plenty to watch (albeit my teenage son did seem to find a way to access the ESPN app for sports on occasion). Also occasionally we'd get a season or more of a show we hadn't watched before from the library.

Now that there are some better value streaming options we have added DTVN's "Go Big" 100 channel package (grandfathered in on the early adopter deal). If that gets too epensive at some point we will find a cheaper option or do without. We just don't find enough value in pay TV (for us) to pay much more than we are paying right now, and certainly not $100 plus!


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Joe Siegler said:


> I bit on this, and bought a *Bolt OTA*. ...
> 
> On the bottom it appears that all they did to make it from a regular Bolt to OTA was take out the part where you'd insert a cable card.


From page #1 of the thread...


TiVo_Ted said:


> We removed the CableCARD connector, MOCA networking and* some supporting components.* Otherwise, it's the same spec as a BOLT VOX.



It remains to be seen if the BOLT OTA is capable of the same tweak as the Roamio OTA, mentioned and linked above, or if "some supporting components" includes some component critical to digital cable/CableCARD tuning. Given they bothered to modify the board to eliminate MoCA, I'll be surprised to see that they didn't block cable tuning - especially considering the price difference between BOLT OTA and BOLT VOX service plans.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I didn't pay attention to drive size when I bought the Bolt. I set up a transfer of shows between the Roamio and the Bolt yesterday afternoon. I just looked to see how the transfer went. The Bolt is 100% full. I guess I'll be replacing the drive and transferring the shows again. I saw the instructions online and it's pretty straight-forward.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

krkaufman said:


> From page #1 of the thread..
> 
> It remains to be seen if the BOLT OTA is capable of the same tweak as the Roamio OTA, mentioned and linked above, or if "some supporting components" includes some component critical to digital cable/CableCARD tuning. Given they bothered to modify the board to eliminate MoCA, I'll be surprised to see that they didn't block cable tuning - especially considering the price difference between BOLT OTA and BOLT VOX service plans.


I'd be interested to hear. I wonder if there is a cablecard "issue," given that TiVo didn't take steps in that regard with the Roamio OTA. Of course, time has passed since then and, as you note, there is additional financial incentive here, and TiVo already_ was_ in the box removing the MoCA capability.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Lurker1 said:


> TiVo Bolt OTA review: For would-be cord-cutters with great antenna reception


The reviewer's biggest gripe was that channels she couldn't receive were still included in her system -- the TiVo would display those channels in the guide and even record on them. Maybe this changed with Hydra, but isn't there a way to manually remove those channels from the system?

Although the bigger question is why should one even have to do that. The TiVo should be smart enough when doing the initial channel scan to omit channels with a very weak or no signal. And then, maybe a few days after the initial set-up, present the user with a pop-up box asking if she wishes to further edit the channel line-up to remove those channels with poor signals or that she has no interest in ever watching.

Other than that, I thought the review was a pretty fair one and probably demonstrates how the average cord-cutter would probably think about this product and the overall concept of an OTA DVR.

Also thought the review was spot-on in bringing up the new Amazon Fire TV Recast OTA DVR at the end of the review. For the same cost as the Bolt OTA -- $250 -- Amazon is offering a bundle of their new Fire TV Stick 4K (with Dolby Vision, HDR10+, Dolby Atmos, multi-device Alexa remote, etc.) plus the Recast plus a 35-mile flat indoor OTA antenna. (Those items would cost $300 if purchased separately.) And, of course, the Recast comes with free lifetime service, while TiVo charges an extra $250 for that. *Amazon is going to eat TiVo's lunch here.*


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

NashGuy said:


> Also thought the review was spot-on in bringing up the new Amazon Fire TV Recast OTA DVR at the end of the review. For the same cost as the Bolt OTA -- $250 -- Amazon is offering a bundle of their new Fire TV Stick 4K (with Dolby Vision, HDR10+, Dolby Atmos, multi-device Alexa remote, etc.) plus the Recast plus a 35-mile flat indoor OTA antenna. (Those items would cost $300 if purchased separately.) And, of course, the Recast comes with free lifetime service, while TiVo charges an extra $250 for that. *Amazon is going to eat TiVo's lunch here.*


In fairness, almost no one can really compete with Amazon head on, especially in terms of price.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> Although the bigger question is why should one even have to do that. The TiVo should be smart enough when doing the initial channel scan to omit channels with a very weak or no signal. And then, maybe a few days after the initial set-up, present the user with a pop-up box asking if she wishes to further edit the channel line-up to remove those channels with poor signals or that she has no interest in ever watching.


I can't comment on the Bolt, but with a Premiere a channel scan does not enable dead or very weak channels. At the end of the Guided Setup you are given the option to scan for channels not in the zipcode (or DMA) that the Premiere never tested. As with cable, the initial channel list is pre-set. The default guide is My Channels. Yes, TiVo should be smarter. I would have thought the Bolt would have learned something by now.


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## humbb (Jan 27, 2014)

JoeKustra said:


> Yes, TiVo should be smarter. I would have thought the Bolt would have learned something by now.


Maybe the Bolt should be renamed "Dolt".


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## Joe Siegler (May 10, 2000)

JoeKustra said:


> When you ran the initial Guided Setup, were you asked to chose between cable and OTA? That would be a good clue.


That's a point. Bolt OTA asked me the question about what my source was, but the only option available was antenna.

Also, the initial channel scan on a Bolt OTA was the fastest one I'd ever seen. My older boxes would take a few minutes. This one was 100% finished in about 30 seconds. Found everything that I was aware of, too.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Joe Siegler said:


> That's a point. Bolt OTA asked me the question about what my source was, but the only option available was antenna.
> Also, the initial channel scan on a Bolt OTA was the fastest one I'd ever seen. My older boxes would take a few minutes. This one was 100% finished in about 30 seconds. Found everything that I was aware of, too.


It might be a good idea to hold off on getting that cable card adapter for a while.

Even with my old Premiere, the channel scan takes less than a minute. It finds no stations. But if I run a cable scan, it takes 10 minutes and finds 400 channels.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tarheelblue32 said:


> In fairness, almost no one can really compete with Amazon head on, especially in terms of price.


I know. (I kinda fear that Amazon is getting too big and powerful and is going to mow down virtually all their competitors, but that's for another thread.)

But even setting aside cost (which, let's face it, is a HUGE deal), I tend to think that the feature set of a Fire TV Stick 4K + Recast is going to be more appealing to the average cord-cutter than the TiVo Bolt OTA because it has better, broader, integrated support for streaming, plus more system-wide AI smarts thanks to Alexa and the new remote that can voice control virtually your entire AV set-up (including TV, cable/sat box, sound bar and/or receiver).

However, yes, the cost is the biggest factor, perhaps followed by the fact that when Amazon rolls out a new product, there's far greater awareness of it (especially among their Prime members) than is the case for something like the TiVo Bolt OTA. People won't buy a product if they don't even know it exists.

As I've stated above, I think that, given its feature set and pricing, the Bolt OTA was already facing an uphill struggle in the retail market. But with the new Fire TV Recast hitting the market as a direct competitor, it's not hard to imagine the Bolt OTA failing to rack up enough sales for Arris to justify them continuing to make it. The next three months should tell the tale...


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I agree. At a total cost of $500 (hardware + lifetime All-In service) for a single TV or $680 for two TVs (adding in the cost of a Mini), the Bolt Vox OTA is priced like the Rolls Royce of cord-cutting solutions. But there are a couple of problems there: first, cord-cutters are pretty price sensitive by nature, and second, despite the high price, the Bolt OTA still isn't full-featured enough to satisfy all cord-cutters.
> 
> This would seem to be the profile of someone for whom the Bolt OTA would be a good choice:
> 
> ...


This is my dilemna. I'm relatively new to OTA , I have a Clearstream 4max hooked up to an LG 4k oled and really notice how much better the picture is compared to cable but.....I use the antenna mostly for live sports like the NFL or local news, neither of which I DVR often, and checking my DVR I mostly have cable shows on it ( finished "Better Call Saul" and "always Sunny in Philadelphia" this morning) and only a few broadcast shows. I also have Netflix and Amazon Prime video. So if I got rid of cable I'd want a cable replacement service. I've tried SlingTV and YoutubeTV and out of the two I prefer the latter. Seeing as YoutubeTV gives me most cable channels I want ( except HGTV and a few others) AND all the local channels live with streaming to 3 TV's and unlimited DVR the only reason for me to get the Bolt OTA that I can see would be the ability to DVR the few broadcast shows I watch in higher quality than I can currently with cable or Youtube TV ( assuming I dump cable and go with YTTV). As for PG the order is:
1) OTA
2) YTTV
3)Cable.
I'm tempted though as a guy who likes gadgets. If I went for it I'd be tempted to get the lifetime service but assuming ATSC 3.0 takes off AND shows are being broadcast in beautiful 4k OTA how long until that happens? I assume that would require a new box and the lifetime service would be non transferable?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

cldlhd said:


> This is my dilemna. I'm relatively new to OTA , I have a Clearstream 4max hooked up to an LG 4k oled and really notice how much better the picture is compared to cable but.....I use the antenna mostly for live sports like the NFL or local news, neither of which I DVR often, and checking my DVR I mostly have cable shows on it and only a few broadcast shows. I also have Netflix and Amazon Prime video. So if I got rid of cable I'd want a cable replacement service. I've tried SlingTV and YoutubeTV and out of the two I prefer the latter. Seeing as YoutubeTV gives me most cable channels I want ( except HGTV and a few others) AND all the local channels live with streaming to 3 TV's and unlimited DVR the only reason for me to get the Bolt OTA that I can see would be the ability to DVR the few broadcast shows I watch in higher quality than I can currently with cable or Youtube TV ( assuming I dump cable and go with YTTV). As for PG the order is:
> 1) OTA
> 2) YTTV
> 3)Cable.
> I'm tempted though as a guy who likes gadgets.


You might consider a Roamio OTA refurb in the TiVo online store/Outlet section. Saves you $150 over a Bolt OTA with All-In/Lifetime, if that's of any interest. (As to the "refurb": TiVo refurbs tend to be fine--mine seemed to be brand new.)


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

tarheelblue32 said:


> In fairness, almost no one can really compete with Amazon head on, especially in terms of price.


If Amazon eats anybody it will be Tablo first, OTA only is a one trick pony. We know Amazon has sold hardware at cost in the past. Tivo's can still do cable cards, that will help in the short term.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

PJO1966 said:


> Unsurprisingly, the indoor antenna did next to nothing. I have an antenna being installed on the roof this Saturday. For now, the Bolt is being used in place of a Mini to stream from my Roamio. I actually like the Hydra interface. The back button will take some getting used to, but I think it looks great.


Did the indoor antenna do better connected directly to the TV?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

cldlhd said:


> Did the indoor antenna do better connected directly to the TV?


I didn't try it. I really didn't want an indoor antenna. If it had worked, fine. Otherwise I'd go with one on the rooftop.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

PJO1966 said:


> I didn't try it. I really didn't want an indoor antenna. If it had worked, fine. Otherwise I'd go with one on the rooftop.


I don't either, I have a Clearstream 4max in the attic. I was just curious about the quality of the Bolt OTA's tuner vs the TV's


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

tenthplanet said:


> If Amazon eats anybody it will be Tablo first, OTA only is a one trick pony. We know Amazon has sold hardware at cost in the past. Tivo's can still do cable cards, that will help in the short term.


I wasn't referring to Amazon taking down the entirety of TiVo (which derives most of its business outside of retail products anyhow), I just mean that the Fire TV Recast would vastly outsell the new Bolt OTA specifically and draw at least some would-be TiVo buyers away from it. But yes, the Recast is also going to put a big hurt on Tablo, which, as a network DVR used via streaming hardware end points, is very, very similar to the Recast.

The math for Tablo is $140 for their Dual Lite 2-tuner model plus, say, $50 for a 1TB USB hard drive, plus $150 for a lifetime guide data subscription. That comes to $340, which is $110 more than the 2-tuner Recast. The price disparity is even higher when comparing 4-tuner models. Muy no bueno for Tablo.

What should really be causing the guys at Tablo to lose sleep is the thought that maybe Roku also will roll out their own first-party OTA DVR that does for them what the Recast does for Fire TV. Keep in mind that, just like Fire TV, Roku's OS is already built into smart TVs that have live OTA (with trick play capability) built into the Roku UI, complete with program guide and the ability (licensed from TiVo) to find the currently airing OTA show/movie in various popular streaming apps. It wouldn't be a stretch at all for Roku to build and sell their own DVR. Roku is already looking for ways to extend their reach into the living room and build their own little ecosystem with sound bars and such.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

TeamPace said:


> Now that there are some better value streaming options we have added DTVN's "Go Big" 100 channel package (grandfathered in on the early adopter deal). If that gets too epensive at some point we will find a cheaper option or do without. We just don't find enough value in pay TV (for us) to pay much more than we are paying right now, and certainly not $100 plus!


Many people don't even need streaming TV, but the streaming packages are going to further reduce the revenue coming into the pay TV ecosystem, as people like me might subscribe to YTTV during the sports season, and drop it off-season when I don't need it, or pick it up for the Olympics or an election, and then drop it again.



NashGuy said:


> Although the bigger question is why should one even have to do that. The TiVo should be smart enough when doing the initial channel scan to omit channels with a very weak or no signal. And then, maybe a few days after the initial set-up, present the user with a pop-up box asking if she wishes to further edit the channel line-up to remove those channels with poor signals or that she has no interest in ever watching.


Her issue wasn't with the weak Bolt tuners per se, I'm not sure she was aware that they are relatively weaker than on the Roamio, but more with TiVo's inability to sense that a channel is dead and stop recording it. The problem is, that's an impossible task, as what channels you get can depend on atmospheric conditions at that point in time. I have a couple of channels that go out depending on the weather, as right now I have too small of an antenna for my location.



tarheelblue32 said:


> In fairness, almost no one can really compete with Amazon head on, especially in terms of price.


That's the thing. Amazon is not in the DVR business. They're not even in the streaming stick business. They don't care if they make money. They are in the ecosystem business. They want to be everywhere, renting and selling TV and movies, and selling you stuff.



cldlhd said:


> Seeing as YoutubeTV gives me most cable channels I want ( except HGTV and a few others) AND all the local channels live with streaming to 3 TV's and unlimited DVR the only reason for me to get the Bolt OTA that I can see would be the ability to DVR the few broadcast shows I watch in higher quality than I can currently with cable or Youtube TV ( assuming I dump cable and go with YTTV).


No PBS so YTTV is not a replacement for OTA, even though it has all the important cable channels, and is extremely well targeted towards sports and news content that is the stronghold of live TV.

I'd get a used or refurbished TiVo, either a Roamio OTA, Premiere, or even an S3 if you really want to get adventurous, as they are still perfectly fine for OTA. The 2-tuner Premiere that can do OTA and the S3 cannot handle Minis, however.



Mikeguy said:


> (As to the "refurb": TiVo refurbs tend to be fine--mine seemed to be brand new.)


My refurb Roamio OTA has been great. I pulled the drive out on day 1 and put a 3TB drive in, just so I could have 3TB. Will I ever need 3TB for OTA? Probably not, especially with my local NBC now sharing with Telemundo and cutting their bitrate down to about 8mbps, but I have it!


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

Bigg said:


> That's the thing. Amazon is not in the DVR business


Exactly! Tivo isn't in the DVR business either. They are in the EPG and personal content discovery business. I suspect only a small number of these platforms will survive and Amazon is determined to make Fire TV one of them. Apple and Google both have a chance, but neither seems as determined as Amazon. Tivo may or may not be one of them.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

"No PBS so YTTV is not a replacement for OTA" . This is true currently but YTTV seems to be adding channels pretty quickly. I wouldn't get rid of OTA just not sure it'd be worth a standalone OTA DVR


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Scooby Doo said:


> Exactly! Tivo isn't in the DVR business either. They are in the EPG and personal content discovery business. I suspect only a small number of these platforms will survive and Amazon is determined to make Fire TV one of them. Apple and Google both have a chance, but neither seems as determined as Amazon. Tivo may or may not be one of them.


I see what you're saying with Rovi, but DVRs are still central to TiVo's business model. DVRs are entirely tertiary for Amazon. Amazon is a cloud services company that also runs a giant logistics network, a grocery store, sells sells more stuff online than anybody else, also has an online streaming business, and that is where the DVR fits in as one little tiny part of one little tiny part of their business.

Amazon just doesn't have to make money off of DVRs. I doubt they're losing money, but the goal with the recast is to get people into their ecosystem, and then sell them more stuff on Amazon Video.



cldlhd said:


> "No PBS so YTTV is not a replacement for OTA" . This is true currently but YTTV seems to be adding channels pretty quickly. I wouldn't get rid of OTA just not sure it'd be worth a standalone OTA DVR


It's something to do with the way PBS handles must-carry or the rights for their programming. That being said, you can get PBS Passport instead of an OTA DVR.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

cldlhd said:


> This is my dilemna. I'm relatively new to OTA , I have a Clearstream 4max hooked up to an LG 4k oled and really notice how much better the picture is compared to cable but.....I use the antenna mostly for live sports like the NFL or local news, neither of which I DVR often, and checking my DVR I mostly have cable shows on it ( finished "Better Call Saul" and "always Sunny in Philadelphia" this morning) and only a few broadcast shows. I also have Netflix and Amazon Prime video. So if I got rid of cable I'd want a cable replacement service. I've tried SlingTV and YoutubeTV and out of the two I prefer the latter. Seeing as YoutubeTV gives me most cable channels I want ( except HGTV and a few others) AND all the local channels live with streaming to 3 TV's and unlimited DVR the only reason for me to get the Bolt OTA that I can see would be the ability to DVR the few broadcast shows I watch in higher quality than I can currently with cable or Youtube TV ( assuming I dump cable and go with YTTV). As for PG the order is:
> 1) OTA
> 2) YTTV
> 3)Cable.
> I'm tempted though as a guy who likes gadgets. If I went for it I'd be tempted to get the lifetime service but assuming ATSC 3.0 takes off AND shows are being broadcast in beautiful 4k OTA how long until that happens? I assume that would require a new box and the lifetime service would be non transferable?


If it were me, I'd be asking myself, "Just HOW important is that somewhat better HD picture quality on ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox via OTA vs. YouTube TV?" Honestly, is it worth the hardware and service cost of a Bolt OTA ($500 with lifetime)? Would it be worth the inelegant solution of switching inputs (and maybe remotes) back and forth between your streaming device for YTTV (and probably everything else you stream) and the TiVo? If you were already inside the YTTV app watching live or recorded TV from a cable channel, do you think you and any others in your household would really switch over to the TiVo for the broadcast networks if they were available _right there_ in the YTTV app you already have open?

As for ATSC 3.0, we might see some stations broadcasting in it next year but it increasingly seems like the consensus among industry observers is that 2020 is when it will really make its initial big splash. It also looks like the major networks will use 1080p HDR, not 4K, as their main broadcast format for primetime shows and sports. There's always someone on this forum who wishfully speculates that TiVo might come out with external ATSC 3.0 tuners that could connect to current Bolts, thereby upgrading them to work with the new standard. But I really think that the economics of doing that just wouldn't make sense for TiVo. If TiVo (and their hardware partner Arris) are still making OTA DVRs in a year or two, they'll just come out with a whole new model with hybrid 3.0/1.0 tuners, forcing existing Bolt OTA owners to buy a new box, although maybe they'll offer some kind of discounted lifetime service transfer.

Also, have you checked out PS Vue? They include HGTV in all their packages and they get great reviews from users. DVR has unlimited capacity, although recordings auto-delete after 4 weeks instead of 9 months, as with YTTV. Hulu with Live TV with their ad-free and enhanced DVR options may be the best all-around option but that comes to $59, so may not be worth it to you. On-demand content from ABC, NBC and Fox looks great, definitely better on Hulu than it does from my local OTA channels.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

In our house, sticking with TiVo rather than one of the many cloud DVRs we tried is worth every penny.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

If price were no object, I'd still have cable. But the difference is way too many pennies for me. If I still had cable, I'd be paying about $150/month more for essentially the same content. Nearly $2000/year is not worth saving a few button presses on the cloud DVR software versus the comm skip button on Tivo, especially considering how little I DVR cable channels to begin with. 90% of my DVR use is OTA these days.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Amazon just doesn't have to make money off of DVRs. I doubt they're losing money, but the goal with the recast is to get people into their ecosystem, and then sell them more stuff on Amazon Video.


Tivo doesn't make any money off of DVR hardware either. They do lose money on hardware sales. Their goal is to grow their ecosystem of 20m households and sell metadata and personalized content discovery. Really not so different.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> If it were me, I'd be asking myself, "Just HOW important is that somewhat better HD picture quality on ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox via OTA vs. YouTube TV?" Honestly, is it worth the hardware and service cost of a Bolt OTA ($500 with lifetime)? Would it be worth the inelegant solution of switching inputs (and maybe remotes) back and forth between your streaming device for YTTV (and probably everything else you stream) and the TiVo? If you were already inside the YTTV app watching live or recorded TV from a cable channel, do you think you and any others in your household would really switch over to the TiVo for the broadcast networks if they were available _right there_ in the YTTV app you already have open?


The transport controls on TiVo alone are worth clicking one button to switch inputs on your AVR. And the cost isn't $500 if you buy a used TiVo, anything ranging from a TCD648 for a single TV up to a Roamio OTA for a whole-home system with Minis. Network TV is loaded full of ads, so having TiVo's transport controls are really worth it.



> As for ATSC 3.0, we might see some stations broadcasting in it next year but it increasingly seems like the consensus among industry observers is that 2020 is when it will really make its initial big splash. It also looks like the major networks will use 1080p HDR, not 4K, as their main broadcast format for primetime shows and sports. There's always someone on this forum who wishfully speculates that TiVo might come out with external ATSC 3.0 tuners that could connect to current Bolts, thereby upgrading them to work with the new standard. But I really think that the economics of doing that just wouldn't make sense for TiVo. If TiVo (and their hardware partner Arris) are still making OTA DVRs in a year or two, they'll just come out with a whole new model with hybrid 3.0/1.0 tuners, forcing existing Bolt OTA owners to buy a new box, although maybe they'll offer some kind of discounted lifetime service transfer.


I agree about TiVo and the economics. I think it's far more likely that Amazon would offer an upgrade for the Recast, that would probably somehow involve multiple dongles, which seems to be the way they like to do things now.

I don't think HDR or 1080p matters, 1080i is perfectly fine, the issue is that some stations may move to 480p in sharing with other channels on ATSC 1.0, or may continue to squish more crappy looking 720p channels on 1.0 transmitters. The big advantage of 3.0 will hopefully be less ridiculous compression. Unfortunately, that will effectively force us into 3.0, even though the broadcasters created the quality/bandwidth problem by adding tons of subchannels. If the broadcasters would all just use a single channel of glorious 19.3mbps MPEG-2 1080i, and everyone had good de-interlacers we'd have no use for 3.0.



Scooby Doo said:


> Tivo doesn't make any money off of DVR hardware either. They do lose money on hardware sales. Their goal is to grow their ecosystem of 20m households and sell metadata and personalized content discovery. Really not so different.


TiVo is making money on DVRs. If they aren't making double-digit margins on a $400 or $500 DVR, then they are total idiots, and I don't think that's the case.

Amazon is in it for the longer ecosystem play. They don't care if they ever make money on the Fire TV, the Recast, etc. They will make it in Amazon Prime, rentals, etc. They want the ecosystem lock-in. TiVo, meanwhile, doesn't have an ecosystem, and doesn't have a huge downstream market other than some tertiary ad and data sales.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have a way to connect your signal source to our billing system in order to accomplish this. Because of the difference in pricing, very few BOLT 500GB customers connect their devices to OTA. If you call customer support, they may have a way to offer you a reduced monthly fee if you've been paying full price for a while.


*TiVo Premiere - Antenna only promo*
TiVo Premiere - Antenna only promo


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

NashGuy said:


> If it were me, I'd be asking myself, "Just HOW important is that somewhat better HD picture quality on ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox via OTA vs. YouTube TV?" Honestly, is it worth the hardware and service cost of a Bolt OTA ($500 with lifetime)? Would it be worth the inelegant solution of switching inputs (and maybe remotes) back and forth between your streaming device for YTTV (and probably everything else you stream) and the TiVo? If you were already inside the YTTV app watching live or recorded TV from a cable channel, do you think you and any others in your household would really switch over to the TiVo for the broadcast networks if they were available _right there_ in the YTTV app you already have open?
> 
> As for ATSC 3.0, we might see some stations broadcasting in it next year but it increasingly seems like the consensus among industry observers is that 2020 is when it will really make its initial big splash. It also looks like the major networks will use 1080p HDR, not 4K, as their main broadcast format for primetime shows and sports. There's always someone on this forum who wishfully speculates that TiVo might come out with external ATSC 3.0 tuners that could connect to current Bolts, thereby upgrading them to work with the new standard. But I really think that the economics of doing that just wouldn't make sense for TiVo. If TiVo (and their hardware partner Arris) are still making OTA DVRs in a year or two, they'll just come out with a whole new model with hybrid 3.0/1.0 tuners, forcing existing Bolt OTA owners to buy a new box, although maybe they'll offer some kind of discounted lifetime service transfer.
> 
> Also, have you checked out PS Vue? They include HGTV in all their packages and they get great reviews from users. DVR has unlimited capacity, although recordings auto-delete after 4 weeks instead of 9 months, as with YTTV. Hulu with Live TV with their ad-free and enhanced DVR options may be the best all-around option but that comes to $59, so may not be worth it to you. On-demand content from ABC, NBC and Fox looks great, definitely better on Hulu than it does from my local OTA channels.


The one other factor is the Comcast data cap. If I dumped cable for a streaming replacement I'd probably have to go unlimited data and that's an extra $50. I'd switch inputs to the antenna for the better picture quality most likely for something like an NFL game but that obviously doesn't require a Bolt OTA . Plus I have a Harmony hub so I have an activity set up for OTA.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cldlhd said:


> The one other factor is the Comcast data cap. If I dumped cable for a streaming replacement I'd probably have to go unlimited data and that's an extra $50. I'd switch inputs to the antenna for the better picture quality most likely for something like an NFL game but that obviously doesn't require a Bolt OTA . Plus I have a Harmony hub so I have an activity set up for OTA.


Yeah, that really sucks if you have no other option for internet and you've got caps. I'm on Comcast Northeast right now, so I have no cap issues. A town I will likely move to has Cox, which has caps, so when I move there, I have to find a place that has good VDSL. Of course if you've owned your house longer than a few years, that wouldn't have been something you were looking for, or 3mbps or 6mbps DSL might have been competition at the time, and now Comcast hurt your property value .

That being said, how much of your viewing are actual cable channels? Is it enough to push you over the 1TB limit, or would other streaming push you over anyway? If you're close to the limit anyway, then it might be a consideration, but considering that most of the good content isn't on cable, and is on Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc, most people will either be over or not, regardless of whether they add a streaming CoIP service to fill in the gaps for sports and news.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

Bigg said:


> Yeah, that really sucks if you have no other option for internet and you've got caps. I'm on Comcast Northeast right now, so I have no cap issues. A town I will likely move to has Cox, which has caps, so when I move there, I have to find a place that has good VDSL. Of course if you've owned your house longer than a few years, that wouldn't have been something you were looking for, or 3mbps or 6mbps DSL might have been competition at the time, and now Comcast hurt your property value .
> 
> That being said, how much of your viewing are actual cable channels? Is it enough to push you over the 1TB limit, or would other streaming push you over anyway? If you're close to the limit anyway, then it might be a consideration, but considering that most of the good content isn't on cable, and is on Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, etc, most people will either be over or not, regardless of whether they add a streaming CoIP service to fill in the gaps for sports and news.


I'm outside Philly and Comcast got rid of the cap car before but they brought it back a couple years ago. As of now I'm at about 1/4 of the allowable data a month but my son watches a good bit of shows on the kid cable channels and we tend to be one of those house with TV on in the background on a Saturday afternoon so I assume a cable replacement service would jack our data up quick


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

Bigg said:


> TiVo is making money on DVRs. If they aren't making double-digit margins on a $400 or $500 DVR, then they are total idiots, and I don't think that's the case.


Sadly they are not making money on DVR hardware. If you look at their most recent quarterly results (Q2 2018) they reported a loss of $3.3m on hardware sales. This is why they are exiting hardware sales and handing this over to Arris. I agree with you that it is beyond belief that they are losing money at current prices, but thems the facts


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

Bigg said:


> TiVo, meanwhile, doesn't have an ecosystem, and doesn't have a huge downstream market other than some tertiary ad and data sales.


They have a larger ecosystem than you might think. They claim to be delivering program guide and personalized content discovery to over 20m Tivo boxes, mostly deployed with US cable operators although there are a fair number with Virgin Media in the UK. That's where they make their money


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Scooby Doo said:


> Sadly they are not making money on DVR hardware. If you look at their most recent quarterly results (Q2 2018) they reported a loss of $3.3m on hardware sales. This is why they are exiting hardware sales and handing this over to Arris. *I agree with you that it is beyond belief that they are losing money at current prices*, but thems the facts


Especially where TiVo seemingly has not done any development of its hardware for years (the Bolt OTA excepted, if one considers the removal of components from the already-developed Bolt platform as development).

I still find it hard to believe this, and wonder what, if any, creative or special accounting goes into the TiVo quarterly report/results.


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## Intheswamp (Nov 15, 2017)

Hmm, just caught back up on the thread. My primary focus is on OTA reception and streaming content is of no serious concern. From what I've read it seems that the Bolt OTA's tuner isn't as good, sensitivity-wise, as the Roamio OTA's...am I correct on this? I've got one daughter in a metro area and one in a rural area.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Especially where TiVo seemingly has not done any development of its hardware for years (the Bolt OTA excepted, if one considers the removal of components from the already-developed Bolt platform as development).


I agree it seems that way, though they reported spending $194m on R&D in 2017. Admittedly this was for both the Tivo and Rovi businesses and they don't provide a split. But it make you wonder.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Intheswamp said:


> Hmm, just caught back up on the thread. My primary focus is on OTA reception and streaming content is of no serious concern. From what I've read it seems that the Bolt OTA's tuner isn't as good, sensitivity-wise, as the Roamio OTA's...am I correct on this? I've got one daughter in a metro area and one in a rural area.


It would be cool if TiVo published specs on the tuner. It would be cool if anybody published specs on their tuner. If you can do the research, the label on the tuner: SLBL-00123-005A1. That's on a 17 July 2017 Roamio OTA.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Scooby Doo said:


> Sadly they are not making money on DVR hardware. If you look at their most recent quarterly results (Q2 2018) they reported a loss of $3.3m on hardware sales. This is why they are exiting hardware sales and handing this over to Arris. I agree with you that it is beyond belief that they are losing money at current prices, but thems the facts


Are you referring to this part of the report?










I don't think that is showing a loss but instead showing where they are excluding the 3.3 million in hardware sales revenue to show their core revenue. Same for the 8.3 million in legacy TiVo IP licenses. I'm pretty sure it would be tough to lose 8 million in licensing. 

Not sure why they are excluding this revenue though.

Scott


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> I don't think that is showing a loss but instead showing where they are excluding the 3.3 million in hardware sales revenue to show their core revenue. Same for the 8.3 million in legacy TiVo IP licenses. I'm pretty sure it would be tough to lose 8 million in licensing.
> 
> Not sure why they are excluding this revenue though.


You are correct: I misspoke. They reported $3.3m in hardware revenue in Q2 2018. You have to dive into the 10Q to find the profitability:










They reported revenue of $3.3m and costs of $5.0m in the hardware business for a loss of $1.7m. In conference calls, management has repeatedly referred to the losses from hardware as the reason they are exiting the hardware business. They are currently excluding this revenue from their core revenue, as you noted, pending the transfer to Arris


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Intheswamp said:


> Hmm, just caught back up on the thread. My primary focus is on OTA reception and streaming content is of no serious concern. From what I've read it seems that the Bolt OTA's tuner isn't as good, sensitivity-wise, as the Roamio OTA's...am I correct on this? I've got one daughter in a metro area and one in a rural area.


I think -- somewhere in this thread -- that TiVoTed said that they're using the same OTA tuner in the Bolt OTA as they were using in the Roamio OTA, which was apparently a different tuner than what is used in the regular Bolt (that does both cable and OTA).


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> The transport controls on TiVo alone are worth clicking one button to switch inputs on your AVR. And the cost isn't $500 if you buy a used TiVo, anything ranging from a TCD648 for a single TV up to a Roamio OTA for a whole-home system with Minis. Network TV is loaded full of ads, so having TiVo's transport controls are really worth it.


I don't really find the transport controls on TiVo to be better than my Apple TV 4K, all things considered (although I agree that TiVo's controls are better than Roku or Fire TV, in my experience). ATV's 10-sec jump back is super quick, scanning through video is better than on TiVo thanks to Apple's touchpad scrubbing, and you can ask Siri "What'd he say?" and the video jumps back about 15 sec. and temporarily turns on CC.

The big benefit, IMO, that TiVo would offer here is SkipMode, to jump over all those ad breaks with a single button press. Can't do that on any streaming cable TV service that I know of, regardless of what hardware you're using. But again, even if you're buying used (slower, older) TiVo hardware for less money than a Bolt OTA, is it worth the cost and the hassle of maintaining a separate DVR/viewing system for your broadcast channels vs. your cable channels? If you record and watch a TON of commercial broadcast TV, maybe.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

NashGuy said:


> I think -- somewhere in this thread -- that TiVoTed said that they're using the same OTA tuner in the Bolt OTA as they were using in the Roamio OTA, which was apparently a different tuner than what is used in the regular Bolt (that does both cable and OTA).


Good memory: New TiVo Bolt OTA

Since the Bolt was released, it has displayed similar attribute as the basic Roamio. Support software and diagnostic displays also seem similar. It would be great if the next time someone opens a Bolt they post the numbers on the tuner unit.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

My antenna was just hooked up a few minutes ago, but I got all the major networks locked in solid. There's also about 100 other channels I will never watch, but are solid too. I wish I had done this five years ago when we moved in.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> It would be great if the next time someone opens a Bolt they post the numbers on the tuner unit.


I just plain don't like the style, chassis, and less common hard drive of the Bolt in any configuration.
I could live with the black if I had a gun to my head but not the white... although the white remote would be easier to spot if lost.

Down the road if a Roamio OTA smoked a Bolt OTA may be the only replacement available.

Even if the tuner chips are the same the Bolt chassis and internal configuration may effect tuner performance.

It would be valuable to get a side by side real world performance comparison between Bolt OTA and Roamio OTA tuners.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

just4tivo said:


> It would be valuable to get a side by side real world performance comparison between Bolt OTA and Roamio OTA tuners.


PM me if anyone would like to gift me an "All-In" Bolt OTA and I will conduct and post here the results of a comparison with my Roamio.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Scooby Doo said:


> They reported revenue of $3.3m and costs of $5.0m in the hardware business for a loss of $1.7m. In conference calls, management has repeatedly referred to the losses from hardware as the reason they are exiting the hardware business. They are currently excluding this revenue from their core revenue, as you noted, pending the transfer to Arris


You really have to wonder why Arris signed up to make TiVo hardware given those numbers. Is TiVo going to cover Arris for any losses on hardware sales going forward? I mean, why would Arris agree to take over a losing business? At least with their first product out of the gate, the Bolt OTA, Arris doesn't seem to be doing anything much different than TiVo in terms of retail pricing, hardware quality (costs), or sales channels. So it's hard to see how Arris isn't going to lose money on TiVo hardware too.

At least when TiVo made the hardware, they could cover those losses with profits from service fees. Maybe TiVo is giving Arris a cut of that as part of their arrangement?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Scooby Doo said:


> They reported $3.3m and costs of $$5.0m in the hardware business for a loss of $1.7m. In conference calls, management has repeatedly referred to the losses from hardware as the reason they are exiting the hardware business. They are currently excluding this revenue from their core revenue, as you noted, pending the transfer to Arris





NashGuy said:


> You really have to wonder why Arris signed up to make TiVo hardware given those numbers. Is TiVo going to cover Arris for any losses on hardware sales going forward? I mean, why would Arris agree to take over a losing business? At least with their first product out of the gate, the Bolt OTA, Arris doesn't seem to be doing anything much different than TiVo in terms of retail pricing, hardware quality (costs), or sales channels. So it's hard to see how Arris isn't going to lose money on TiVo hardware too.
> 
> At least when TiVo made the hardware, they could cover those losses with profits from service fees. Maybe TiVo is giving Arris a cut of that as part of their arrangement?


That was going to be my response as well! Unless Arris is going to either raise the prices or later switch to their own hardware that's also used with other clients so they have a greater economy of scale where they can be produced cheaper, you would have to wonder....

Scott


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## Kintaro (May 2, 2016)

Any word on the updated TiVo iOS app? Tivo_Tedentipn that it would release last weekend I believe.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

HerronScott said:


> That was going to be my response as well! Unless Arris is going to either raise the prices or later switch to their own hardware that's also used with other clients so they have a greater economy of scale where they can be produced cheaper, you would have to wonder....
> Scott


I do not understand the economics particularly well but I believe Tivo is currently accounting for hardware sales at $200/$250 for the Bolt/Bolt OTA. The service fee of $15.00/$7.50 per month is accounted for under services revenue and this is not being transferred to Arris. The hardware prices are not particularly aggressive compared to Europe where OTA DVRs are available for under $200. Of course these boxes don't provide the Tivo quality experience, but the hardware is more or less identical. I suspect Arris believes they can be profitable at the existing prices given the scale economies they can achieve by integrating with their existing cable/OTA products. Management has also talked about expanding retail distribution which is currently limited to Best Buy, Amazon and Tivo.com.
Tivo will still be a premium priced product because of the service fees which will continue to go to Tivo. These fees are very high by international standards where generally EPG metadata is available for free. Amazon is clearly going down this route with Recast. The $15.00/$7.50 per month fee may well be justified by the quality of the product, but make no mistake Tivo has substantial room for maneuver. The great majority of the 20m existing Tivo households are with cable operators (direct supply, not cable card) and Tivo's average service revenue per household is under $20 *per year*. Yes, retail customer service fees are very high margin!


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Scooby Doo said:


> Sadly they are not making money on DVR hardware. If you look at their most recent quarterly results (Q2 2018) they reported a loss of $3.3m on hardware sales. This is why they are exiting hardware sales and handing this over to Arris. I agree with you that it is beyond belief that they are losing money at current prices, but thems the facts


I don't think they're accounting for the service on the boxes. If they are charging $400-$500 for a DVR and not making money, then they are hopeless.



Scooby Doo said:


> They have a larger ecosystem than you might think. They claim to be delivering program guide and personalized content discovery to over 20m Tivo boxes, mostly deployed with US cable operators although there are a fair number with Virgin Media in the UK. That's where they make their money


They don't have an appstore. They don't have their own content. They don't have voice assistants that sit on your counter. They don't have e-readers. They don't have tablets. Nothing you described has anything to do with an ecosystem.



NashGuy said:


> I don't really find the transport controls on TiVo to be better than my Apple TV 4K, all things considered (although I agree that TiVo's controls are better than Roku or Fire TV, in my experience).


I have not tried the new ATV. In my experience, no streaming platform has done a very good job with transport controls, as they have to re-buffer when rewinding.



> But again, even if you're buying used (slower, older) TiVo hardware for less money than a Bolt OTA, is it worth the cost and the hassle of maintaining a separate DVR/viewing system for your broadcast channels vs. your cable channels? If you record and watch a TON of commercial broadcast TV, maybe.


For someone coming in now, maybe yes, maybe no. Since we all have TiVos already, it makes perfect sense to maintain separate worlds for OTA and streaming.



NashGuy said:


> You really have to wonder why Arris signed up to make TiVo hardware given those numbers. Is TiVo going to cover Arris for any losses on hardware sales going forward?


I think Arris has half a clue how to make hardware profitably, since they make a TON of CPE for MSOs. They also have in-house design and engineering staff, so there is probably a lot of overhead costs that they have already dealt with which makes those resources much cheaper for TiVo products.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

NashGuy said:


> You really have to wonder why Arris signed up to make TiVo hardware given those numbers. Is TiVo going to cover Arris for any losses on hardware sales going forward? I mean, why would Arris agree to take over a losing business? At least with their first product out of the gate, the Bolt OTA, Arris doesn't seem to be doing anything much different than TiVo in terms of retail pricing, hardware quality (costs), or sales channels. So it's hard to see how Arris isn't going to lose money on TiVo hardware too.
> 
> At least when TiVo made the hardware, they could cover those losses with profits from service fees. Maybe TiVo is giving Arris a cut of that as part of their arrangement?


Considering Arris makes boxes for almost every cable company. They aren't losing money Probably making them for half of what Tivo could


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I think the hardware losses are twofold -- retail takes a huge chunk of the margin. They can easily take ~$100 of a $300 box or ~$200 of a $500 box. Retail has been expensive for Tivo, but it's still a necessary evil.

The second is customer acquisition cost. I don't know if they still split this out, but in the past they claimed an average cost of over $100 per Roamio just to acquire a customer. It was pretty bad. I think they have dialed this cost back but I don't know by how much.

All in all, the higher-end boxes are profitable, the mid/low ranges take a hit. The cheaper ones sell a lot more, so there's a loss.

Arris has been making the MG2 (6 tuner Bolt-equivalent) for a while now. The motherboards are laid out differently, but this could easily change with a theoretical Series 7 or Series 6 reboot. Right now they already use exact Arris hardware in the Mini Vox (Mi4 in a Tivo case).

If Arris has a more favorable partnership with retail, and can most likely make it for less, they can probably make the math work. Prices could definitely still go up though... Mini Vox for $180?


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## Intheswamp (Nov 15, 2017)

JoeKustra said:


> It would be cool if TiVo published specs on the tuner. It would be cool if anybody published specs on their tuner. If you can do the research, the label on the tuner: SLBL-00123-005A1. That's on a 17 July 2017 Roamio OTA.


Thanks, Joe. But I can't even keep up with the Tivo abbreviations.  I guess I'll wait on more anecdotal reviews as the Bolt OTA gets out in the market. :blush:


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Arris knows how to make hardwarwe at a reasonable cost. I can't imagine a Comcast, Cox, or Charter paying even $100 for a regular HD DVR from Arris, maybe a little more for something like an XG1v4, but not much. Granted, the MSO is often providing the software for it, like in the case of Comcast and Cox using X1, but when you start with reasonably priced hardware, you can make things work.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Bigg said:


> I think Arris has half a clue how to make hardware profitably, since they make a TON of CPE for MSOs. They also have in-house design and engineering staff, so there is probably a lot of overhead costs that they have already dealt with which makes those resources much cheaper for TiVo products.





compnurd said:


> Considering Arris makes boxes for almost every cable company. They aren't losing money Probably making them for half of what Tivo could





BigJimOutlaw said:


> All in all, the higher-end boxes are profitable, the mid/low range take hits. The cheaper ones sell a lot more, so there's a loss.
> 
> Arris has been making the MG2 (6 tuner Bolt-equivalent) for a while now. The motherboards are laid out differently, but this could easily change with a theoretical Series 7 or Series 6 reboot. They use exact Arris hardware in the Mini Vox (Mi4 in a Tivo case).
> 
> If Arris has a more favorable partnership with retail, and can most likely make it for less, they can probably make the math work. Prices could definitely still go up though... Mini Vox for $180?


All of these quotes are implying that Arris can succeed in making a profit on TiVo hardware where TiVo couldn't because Arris can make the hardware cheaper due to economies of scale. Which may be true, although that would seem to imply that new TiVo boxes made by Arris will share a lot of their components with non-TiVo boxes that Arris makes for MSOs. And perhaps they will, going forward, as BigJimOutlaw mentioned with a theoretical Series 7 or Series 6 reboot.

But I don't think that's the case with this new Bolt OTA, is it? I don't think Arris took one of their cable boxes and simply swapped out QAM tuners for OTA tuners. I guess we'd need someone to open up a Bolt OTA and see how it's designed but my guess is that it's basically just like a regular TiVo-manufactured Bolt but without the CableCARD bracket and QAM tuners. Perhaps Arris is able to make this device for a bit less than TiVo could have but I'm skeptical it's a significant difference.

As for Arris having a more favorable partnership with retail than TiVo, and therefore being able to shave off some of the marketing/distribution costs, I'm doubtful. The only retail devices that Arris has sold for years now is their line of SURFboard cable modems. Just check out their website -- it's pretty evident that they're a B2B-oriented company with very little involvement in retail.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I also wonder: if Arris (understandably) needs to shave as much as it can to make a profit (and as much of it as possible), what does that mean to innovation? TiVo could lean on other revenue streams (e.g. subscription fees)--Arris doesn't have that. Some people may disagree with aspects of the Bolt, including its bend and color, but it_ does_ evidence broader thinking by TiVo.

Having said that, my first TiVo box was manufactured by Toshiba, and has a fully-integrated DVD player/recorder that I've sorely missed in later boxes--something that TiVo itself never did. But for some reason, I don't sense Arris proceeding in a similarly beneficial and forward-thinking fashion. Although I'd love to be proved wrong.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> As for Arris having a more favorable partnership with retail than TiVo, and therefore being able to shave off some of the marketing/distribution costs, I'm doubtful. The only retail devices that Arris has sold for years now is their line of SURFboard cable modems. Just check out their website -- it's pretty evident that they're a B2B-oriented company with very little involvement in retail.


This is what Tivo management said on the Q2 conference call:

_"Yes. In terms of hardware, we did complete the deal. We talked about that on the prior quarter call. So in the second half of the year, the guides that will be distributed to consumers will be boxes provided through the thirdparty provider. The only hardware revenue that we'll be recognizing will be the sales through TiVo.com. We think this does a couple of things for us: One, it takes us out of an area that's not a core competency working with an OEM on manufactured boxes, reduces some costs, and also, hopefully, we can take advantage of their acumen in selling through in retail and see a benefit in terms of the number of consumer households we have."

_


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> All of these quotes are implying that Arris can succeed in making a profit on TiVo hardware where TiVo couldn't because Arris can make the hardware cheaper due to economies of scale.


They might share hardware, they might not, but either way, Arris is better at making stuff cheaply. Some of it is just the know-how and supplier connections more than scales of economy per se.



> Perhaps Arris is able to make this device for a bit less than TiVo could have but I'm skeptical it's a significant difference.


I'd suspect Arris is making them for quite a bit less than TiVo was, if the TiVo revenue numbers are at all accurate.



> As for Arris having a more favorable partnership with retail than TiVo, and therefore being able to shave off some of the marketing/distribution costs, I'm doubtful.


And they still have a footprint in Wal-Mart and Best Buy that's pretty significant. Those are mostly adapted from what the MSOs are offering, sure, but they are at retail. They are comfortable with the retail market.



Mikeguy said:


> Some people may disagree with aspects of the Bolt, including its bend and color, but it_ does_ evidence broader thinking by TiVo.


And WHAT exactly is innovative about the Bolt? It's a curved version of the same thing TiVo has been making for nearly 20 years- a box that records TV and plays it back later. They were late to the game with whole-home and the Minis, and they have been late to the game or MIA completely with a lot of other things in the market.



> Having said that, my first TiVo box was manufactured by Toshiba, and has a fully-integrated DVD player/recorder that I've sorely missed in later boxes--something that TiVo itself never did. But for some reason, I don't sense Arris proceeding in a similarly beneficial and forward-thinking fashion. Although I'd love to be proved wrong.


What types of features like that would they do today? Everything is moving to cloud and software, streaming. As much as I don't want to admit it, I think the future for OTA DVRs is in the mold of Tablo and Recast, not TiVo. I'd like to see TiVo take on Tablo and Recast directly with their own apps, starting with apps that connect to a Bolt OTA and moving towards the headless model.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

In a decade will have no OTA DVR's, software and the cloud will replace everything. OTA is on borrowed time and most younger people don't want it or need it. Enjoy your hardware, while it exists. The last hardware dvr's will be for cable.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> And WHAT exactly is innovative about the Bolt? It's a curved version of the same thing TiVo has been making for nearly 20 years- a box that records TV and plays it back later. They were late to the game with whole-home and the Minis, and they have been late to the game or MIA completely with a lot of other things in the market.


Well, I haven't seen_ you_ put out a DVR with a bend in it. And in white, no less. 

I guess my thought was, TiVo was actually thinking and actually changed things for what it saw as beneficial (let's also not forget the quickened speed, and smaller size, of the Bolt), even if one might disagree with some of the changes. My original post was pondering, will Arris do that?

Will there be a Thunder TiVo box in the future, or is the Bolt it? And would Arris develop it, or does the TiVo relationship with the manf(s). cover TiVo's development of new products for their production by others? Maybe not necessarily bad--that's what Apple does, right?
​


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

tenthplanet said:


> In a decade will have no OTA DVR's, software and the cloud will replace everything. OTA is on borrowed time and most younger people don't want it or need it. Enjoy your hardware, while it exists. The last hardware dvr's will be for cable.


The percentage of U.S. households receiving TV from an OTA antenna has actually been increasing over the past few years.

Study: 20% of U.S. Broadband Homes Use Antenna for TV


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

tenthplanet said:


> In a decade will have no OTA DVR's, software and the cloud will replace everything. OTA is on borrowed time and most younger people don't want it or need it. Enjoy your hardware, while it exists. The last hardware dvr's will be for cable.


I'm trttry out YouTube TV and while it might be a good cable replacement but there is room for improvement. There's buffering and OTA has a better picture


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

cldlhd said:


> ... and OTA has a better picture


When all is said and done and we've spent good money for high tech TVs doesn't that say it all? It does for me.

Since I climbed on the TiVo OTA bandwagon three years ago I'm $2800 ahead by not paying for TV.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The percentage of U.S. households receiving TV from an OTA antenna has actually been increasing over the past few years.
> 
> Study: 20% of U.S. Broadband Homes Use Antenna for TV


But what do they do with it, if they don't record it doesn't help us. Live viewing doesn't help the cause of hardware DVR's. We need active engaged people to lay there money down. And it helps if it's turnkey, most people don't want turn TV reception into a hobby, something the OTA pundits don't always get.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

tarheelblue32 said:


> The percentage of U.S. households receiving TV from an OTA antenna has actually been increasing over the past few years.
> 
> Study: 20% of U.S. Broadband Homes Use Antenna for TV


Yee-hah! I'm aiming for majority status one day!


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

just4tivo said:


> When all is said and done and we've spent good money for high tech TVs doesn't that say it all? It does for me.
> 
> Since I climbed on the TiVo OTA bandwagon three years ago I'm $2800 ahead by not paying for TV.


True. I still like cable for certain channels and convenience but if I'm able to watch a broadcast channel live I watch it on OTA. I showed my neighbor the difference during a NFL game yesterday flipping inputs with cable and he was surprised how much better the antenna looked and I have a good cable box ( xg1v4) but then pointed out how he likes to flip to the Redzone. I splurged for an LG OLED 4k last year so knowingly watching an inferior picture is difficult.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

tenthplanet said:


> In a decade will have no OTA DVR's, software and the cloud will replace everything. OTA is on borrowed time and most younger people don't want it or need it. Enjoy your hardware, while it exists. The last hardware dvr's will be for cable.


I think the Fire TV Recast is going to be a smashing success, at least relative to the world of OTA DVRs. It literally turns OTA into streaming, and people love streaming, so they're going to love the Recast.



tenthplanet said:


> In a decade will have no OTA DVR's, software and the cloud will replace everything. OTA is on borrowed time and most younger people don't want it or need it. Enjoy your hardware, while it exists. The last hardware dvr's will be for cable.


Satellite. Cable is already moving to cloud-based DVR with Comcast X1. Satellite is the one use case where they can't move to cloud DVR.



Mikeguy said:


> I guess my thought was, TiVo was actually thinking and actually changed things for what it saw as beneficial (let's also not forget the quickened speed, and smaller size, of the Bolt), even if one might disagree with some of the changes. My original post was pondering, will Arris do that?


And it does what fundamentally differently than the Roamio OTA? Maybe it's marginally faster, but it does the same thing. Ok, they added transcoders to the TiVo itself for mobile devices. That's good, but not groundbreaking. The Series 1 was truly groundbreaking. So was the Series 2 with MRV. Then, they started to fall behind on the tech, finally got the Series 3 out well after HDTV and cable HD DVRs were out, and haven't really been innovators since. And I may have gotten Series 2 wrong. Did ReplayTV or somebody else do whole-home first?



cldlhd said:


> True. I still like cable for certain channels and convenience but if I'm able to watch a broadcast channel live I watch it on OTA. I showed my neighbor the difference during a NFL game yesterday flipping inputs with cable and he was surprised how much better the antenna looked and I have a good cable box ( xg1v4) but then pointed out how he likes to flip to the Redzone. I splurged for an LG OLED 4k last year so knowingly watching an inferior picture is difficult.


Chicagoland? Most markets still pass the locals through without re-compression on Comcast.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

Bigg said:


> I think the Fire TV Recast is going to be a smashing success, at least relative to the world of OTA DVRs. It literally turns OTA into streaming, and people love streaming, so they're going to love the Recast.
> 
> Satellite. Cable is already moving to cloud-based DVR with Comcast X1. Satellite is the one use case where they can't move to cloud DVR.
> 
> ...


Suburbs of Philly


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> And it does what fundamentally differently than the Roamio OTA? Maybe it's marginally faster, but it does the same thing. Ok, they added transcoders to the TiVo itself for mobile devices. That's good, but not groundbreaking. The Series 1 was truly groundbreaking. So was the Series 2 with MRV. Then, they started to fall behind on the tech, finally got the Series 3 out well after HDTV and cable HD DVRs were out, and haven't really been innovators since. And I may have gotten Series 2 wrong. Did ReplayTV or somebody else do whole-home first?


My only point was, does a hardware manf. such as Arris have_ any_ incentive to do any innovation, including the above? Again, though, we don't know the terms of the manf. contract and what it might require; and whether TiVo still may be reserving development efforts to itself and "simply" farming out the manufacture efforts, much as what Apple does.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Mikeguy said:


> My only point was, does a hardware manf. such as Arris have_ any_ incentive to do any innovation, including the above? Again, though, we don't know the terms of the manf. contract and what it might require; and whether TiVo still may be reserving development efforts to itself and "simply" farming out the manufacture efforts, much as what Apple does.


Yes. There are a lot of questions I have (which I'm sure we'll never know) about the specifics of the relationship between TiVo and Arris. How involved is TiVo in determining future hardware designs to be made by Arris? 100% 50% 0%? Does Arris receive any compensation from TiVo directly for acting as manufacturer or does Arris make money on this deal solely from hardware profits? How much autonomy does Arris have to kill a particular product if it isn't profitable enough for them?

At any rate, my guess is that this arrangement with Arris is just a relatively short (2 year?) precursor to the death of most or all TiVo-branded retail products. TiVo sees the handwriting on the wall with regard to CableCARD and knows there's no future there. And they were losing money on hardware generally. So it made sense to get Arris, who already made a broad range of equipment for cable MSOs, to take over making TiVo-powered cable boxes, including ones that will be used in post-QAM IPTV systems. Arris already has a thriving business making cable boxes, and has economies of scale that TiVo never had. Why shouldn't Arris take the TiVo OS and offer it as another option to MSOs on Arris's hardware platforms? Meanwhile, TiVo gets to focus on their core competencies/money maker: B2B software and services.

Perhaps as a condition of exclusively licensing all TiVo-powered MSO hardware to Arris, TiVo also required them to take over making their retail hardware too. (Or TiVo somehow otherwise linked retail to MSO hardware to induce Arris to take over retail too.) Although service fees from retail hardware don't make up a huge portion of TiVo's bottom line, I imagine TiVo wants to milk it with new unit sales for awhile longer (rake in a few more sales of all-in-one plans) while there are still a few willing buyers. Plus retail users make excellent beta testers for new TiVo features/UIs before deploying them where they really matter, with their MSO partners.

So how long will Arris stick with making retail TiVo hardware? For all we know, there could be some kind of multi-year commitment that Arris agreed to. But if not, my guess is that Arris will largely, or completely, abandon the retail platform within a couple of years. Sure, they may scratch out a little money on retail hardware where TiVo couldn't, but my guess is that it won't be enough to justify that separate line of business. (Do any of the MSO cable boxes made by Arris even contain CableCARDs now? I doubt it.) I don't care who makes them, CableCARD DVRs are in a death spiral and we're in the end stages. Meanwhile, Roku, Apple TV and smart TVs are emerging as the retail successors to TiVo as consumer-owned hardware for conditional access to MSOs' TV services.

OTA DVRs are enjoying a bit of a moment, particularly with Amazon getting into that game, but that's a product category that has the least in common with the rest of what Arris does, which is focused on cable devices (cable STBs & DOCSIS modems). Perhaps Arris will put out a TiVo-powered OTA network DVR (similar to Tablo and the Fire TV Recast) as a successor to the Bolt OTA (which will have disappointing sales due to its high price, the range of competing solutions, and next-gen ATSC 3.0 looming on the horizon). Or maybe they decide that they don't want to continue with the distraction of TiVo retail devices at all, just to offer a single OTA product. At that point, maybe TiVo strikes a deal with one or more other CE companies to put out their own ATSC 3.0 TiVo products. Or maybe the market for OTA DVRs at that point will be so dominated by Amazon, Tablo and others (Roku? Apple?) that there's just no place for a TiVo-branded solution.

At any rate, back when the Series 6 Bolt came out, I predicted it would be the last generation CableCARD TiVo we'd ever see. Now that Arris is in the mix, _maybe_ there will be a Series 7. But I seriously doubt it goes beyond that.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cldlhd said:


> Suburbs of Philly


Wow, so they're doing MPEG-4 locals there now too? That suck for people with Comcast.



Mikeguy said:


> My only point was, does a hardware manf. such as Arris have_ any_ incentive to do any innovation, including the above? Again, though, we don't know the terms of the manf. contract and what it might require; and whether TiVo still may be reserving development efforts to itself and "simply" farming out the manufacture efforts, much as what Apple does.


I don't think there's much room left to innovate in this space, other than in software. I think the innovation is in making it more widely available more cheaply to more people. Comcast's X1 platform is basically all innovation in software and in the cloud. I hate the result, I think it's awful, but it definitely is something different for Comcast, Cox, and their other partners from the options they had before. The hardware is barely different from any previous DVR, just with slightly faster processors and a bit more RAM or whatnot. It's a box with tuners, a hard drive, and HDMI. If there is any hardware innovation, it's on client boxes and remotes, not the DVR boxes themselves.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

cldlhd said:


> True. I still like cable for certain channels and convenience but if I'm able to watch a broadcast channel live I watch it on OTA. I showed my neighbor the difference during a NFL game yesterday flipping inputs with cable and he was surprised how much better the antenna looked and I have a good cable box ( xg1v4) but then pointed out how he likes to flip to the Redzone. I splurged for an LG OLED 4k last year so knowingly watching an inferior picture is difficult.


That also depends on the cable system. On FiOS in my area, a recording from my Bolts from a local station on FiOS is the same size as a recording made from OTA on my Roamio.

Although OTA quality has been decreasing over the years in my area. As they have added more and more sub-channels.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Perhaps as a condition of exclusively licensing all TiVo-powered MSO hardware to Arris, TiVo also required them to take over making their retail hardware too.


Or maybe they already do?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Scooby Doo said:


> Or maybe they already do?


Oh, we know for sure that Arris is the identity of the (formerly anonymous) hardware partner that TiVo announced a few months ago. Arris is listed as the manufacturer for the new Bolt OTA on the enclosed Set-up Guide.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Oh, we know for sure that Arris is the identity of the (formerly anonymous) hardware partner that TiVo announced a few months ago. Arris is listed as the manufacturer for the new Bolt OTA on the enclosed Set-up Guide.


Oh right, I didn't know that. But then what did you mean by "_take over making their retail hardware too_"?


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

aaronwt said:


> That also depends on the cable system. On FiOS in my area, a recording from my Bolts from a local station on FiOS is the same size as a recording made from OTA on my Roamio.
> 
> Although OTA quality has been decreasing over the years in my area. As they have added more and more sub-channels.


So your picture over FIOS is better than OTA?


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Yes. There are a lot of questions I have (which I'm sure we'll never know) about the specifics of the relationship between TiVo and Arris. How involved is TiVo in determining future hardware designs to be made by Arris? 100% 50% 0%? Does Arris receive any compensation from TiVo directly for acting as manufacturer or does Arris make money on this deal solely from hardware profits? How much autonomy does Arris have to kill a particular product if it isn't profitable enough for them?
> 
> At any rate, my guess is that this arrangement with Arris is just a relatively short (2 year?) precursor to the death of most or all TiVo-branded retail products. TiVo sees the handwriting on the wall with regard to CableCARD and knows there's no future there. And they were losing money on hardware generally. So it made sense to get Arris, who already made a broad range of equipment for cable MSOs, to take over making TiVo-powered cable boxes, including ones that will be used in post-QAM IPTV systems. Arris already has a thriving business making cable boxes, and has economies of scale that TiVo never had. Why shouldn't Arris take the TiVo OS and offer it as another option to MSOs on Arris's hardware platforms? Meanwhile, TiVo gets to focus on their core competencies/money maker: B2B software and services.
> 
> ...


Almost ten years ago I was deciding between a Moxi DVR by Digeo or a TiVo (can't remember model, maybe an XL) and decided to go with Moxi as at the UI was totally HD and there were no monthly fees as well as lots of third party apps via Play-On. Arris ended up buying them for the UI and they sold all existing stock and that was that. It was EOL'd 2 years ago but you still get guide data today if you have one (I had to can my old one I gave to my mom when Comcast switched to h264). If the past is any indication I doubt they will make retail long for TiVo though this circumstance is slightly different.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

cldlhd said:


> So your picture over FIOS is better than OTA?


No. They are identical in qualty and file size. OTA is nothing like it was seventeen years ago in my area. My OTA recordings from 2001 to 2004 put to shame anything broadcast now in my area. Because of all the sub-channels that have been added in my area.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> No. They are identical in qualty and file size. OTA is nothing like it was seventeen years ago in my area. My OTA recordings from 2001 to 2004 put to shame anything broadcast now in my area. Because of all the sub-channels that have been added in my area.


Most of mine are still pretty good with one huge exception. I have switched my PBS from Maryland to DC. The picture for things like Masterpiece is so grainy on Maryland PBS because they have two HD channels plus two SD subs.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

PSU_Sudzi said:


> If the past is any indication I doubt they will make retail long for TiVo though this circumstance is slightly different.


I think TiVo's chances as a retail product are BETTER with Arris, as they know manufacturing and retail, and they can leave the software part to TiVo. Arris is not really a software company, I believe they have a software DVR system, but many of their boxes end up with TiVo or X1 loaded on them anyway. The problem is, the DVR market as a whole is a dying market. Cable will still need CPE from Arris, but whatever is left of the market after cord cutting will be mostly killed off by the MSOs with their own cloud DVR solutions. OTA and satellite are the last bastions for DVRs.



aaronwt said:


> No. They are identical in qualty and file size. OTA is nothing like it was seventeen years ago in my area. My OTA recordings from 2001 to 2004 put to shame anything broadcast now in my area. Because of all the sub-channels that have been added in my area.


Yeah, most Comcast systems still pass the channels through without re-compression, but apparently Philly is compressing to MPEG-4 now, which is unfortunate. Chicago was the first market to go MPEG-4 for locals.

DirecTV gets some channels OTA, some as compressed MPEG-2 muxes over fiber, but in some cases, they get higher bitrate fiber feeds, or have their own encoders at the stations, so they could have higher quality than anyone else, depending on the circumstances in that market.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

Bigg said:


> I think TiVo's chances as a retail product are BETTER with Arris, as they know manufacturing and retail, and they can leave the software part to TiVo. Arris is not really a software company, I believe they have a software DVR system, but many of their boxes end up with TiVo or X1 loaded on them anyway. The problem is, the DVR market as a whole is a dying market. Cable will still need CPE from Arris, but whatever is left of the market after cord cutting will be mostly killed off by the MSOs with their own cloud DVR solutions. OTA and satellite are the last bastions for DVRs.
> 
> Yeah, most Comcast systems still pass the channels through without re-compression, but apparently Philly is compressing to MPEG-4 now, which is unfortunate. Chicago was the first market to go MPEG-4 for locals.
> 
> DirecTV gets some channels OTA, some as compressed MPEG-2 muxes over fiber, but in some cases, they get higher bitrate fiber feeds, or have their own encoders at the stations, so they could have higher quality than anyone else, depending on the circumstances in that market.


The software DVR system they have (or had) was what they bought from Digeo and for a while it was superior to TiVo but they never improved it after purchasing it and just crammed into their boxes.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Am I the only one in this thread who bought the Bolt OTA? I've been putting off running it through the paces until I replace the hard drive (hopefully tomorrow) but would love to hear some first-hand experiences.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

PJO1966 said:


> Am I the only one in this thread who bought the Bolt OTA? I've been putting off running it through the paces until I replace the hard drive (hopefully tomorrow) but would love to hear some first-hand experiences.


Too rich for my blood. I have a few spare lifetime Roamio OTAs I got for $199 a while back. But this guy just ordered one:
Bolt OTA Ordered!


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

PJO1966 said:


> Am I the only one in this thread who bought the Bolt OTA? I've been putting off running it through the paces until I replace the hard drive (hopefully tomorrow) but would love to hear some first-hand experiences.


Please don't take the thread on-topic.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

krkaufman said:


> Please don't take the thread on-topic.


You saw through my evil plot.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Scooby Doo said:


> Oh right, I didn't know that. But then what did you mean by "_take over making their retail hardware too_"?


Arris's initial involvement with TiVo was in making TiVo-powered hardware for use by MSOs. Here are the models they currently offer:

MG2 Cable Media Gateway | ARRIS
Qi3 Cable Set-Top / IP Client | ARRIS

Those models launched in summer 2017.

Then earlier this year, Tivo announced that an outside manufacturer would take over making their retail hardware too, meaning that TiVo would completely exit from the hardware manufacturing business.

The first retail hardware made by Arris is the new Bolt OTA.

I wonder if maybe TiVo's deal with Arris to let them make their MSO hardware was somehow linked to an agreement to also make TiVo retail hardware. I ask that because I would think that Arris would be less interested in taking over their smaller less profitable retail hardware business.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

PJO1966 said:


> Am I the only one in this thread who bought the Bolt OTA? I've been putting off running it through the paces until I replace the hard drive (hopefully tomorrow) but would love to hear some first-hand experiences.


We're waiting on you to save this thread with the actual first hands-on review of the Bolt OTA!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> We're waiting on you to save this thread with the actual first hands-on review of the Bolt OTA!


While I wait for my hard drive, I can say that the few times I've used the tuner so far it's been rock solid. I like the look of the new menu system (hydra) but moving to the first major change since I got my initial TiVo 18 years ago is going to take some adjusting. It looks like it's going to be worth it. 

My plan once the new hard drive is in is to downgrade from Hydra and then transfer all my recordings from the Roamio over. I've been reading how there have been issues when transferring shows from one operating system to another. Once the transfer is over, I'll go back to Hydra.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

PJO1966 said:


> While I wait for my hard drive, I can say that the few times I've used the tuner so far it's been rock solid. I like the look of the new menu system (hydra) but moving to the first major change since I got my initial TiVo 18 years ago is going to take some adjusting. It looks like it's going to be worth it.
> My plan once the new hard drive is in is to downgrade from Hydra and then transfer all my recordings from the Roamio over. I've been reading how there have been issues when transferring shows from one operating system to another. Once the transfer is over, I'll go back to Hydra.


Maybe my story will give you some nightmares. I bought a Roamio OTA last BF. It worked fine, and I already have two TE3 Roamio boxes. Like you, I wanted to transfer the files back to the new 3TB drive. I had saved them off to my other Roamio units. So I changed the hard drive and dropped it back to TE3. I did notice that the "Get New Experience" was missing. But I did copy all the files back without problems. Then I tried to get my TE3 upgraded. TiVo said to use the app. I don't have the app. Then they said I will have to send the unit back. As if. After a few weeks I went to Plan B and bought the VOX remote and quickly paired the remote with its dongle. One hit of the mic button and I was prompted to upgrade. That worked fine. I'm not unhappy, just curious why I couldn't get TiVo to add TE4. I feel there is something wrong with the whole upgrade/downgrade process. I'm not the only person with problems. But, good luck.

BTW, the Roamio with Hydra spends most of its life in Standby. It was the reason that I could not leave it on TE3. Plus it missed its Mini VOX. But that's another thread.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

NashGuy said:


> Arris's initial involvement with TiVo was in making TiVo-powered hardware for use by MSOs. Here are the models they currently offer:
> 
> MG2 Cable Media Gateway | ARRIS
> Qi3 Cable Set-Top / IP Client | ARRIS
> ...


Good explanation. Did Tivo ever actually manufacture anything (i.e. a Tivo owned factory)? Or are they just switching from a contract manufacturing arrangement to more of a fully-outsourced model?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Well, this is frustrating. I could have sworn I had the necessary tools to swap out the hard drive. I can't find them. The new drive came today and I can't do anything about it. :|


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

I think Home Depot or Lowes has a cheap set of the torx bits you need.
I thought I had the right sizes as well, but didn't.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I spoke too soon. I found a T10 but not a T9. I managed to get the job done using the T10. Of course after I was finished I saw that the drive *came with the tools needed* to get the job done.

The top was a bear to remove but I got it off. I broke a couple of the tabs in the process, but it still went back on cleanly. I'm going through the guided setup now.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'm having issues downgrading from Hydra. I followed the instructions and nothing happens. I tried rebooting and then entering the code again and I have the same problem. I think I'm just going to try to transfer my programs from Roamio and see if there's an issue. If not, there's no reason for me to downgrade and then upgrade again.


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## JLV03 (Feb 12, 2018)

Keep in mind you have to be connected to the internet in order to downgrade.


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## fredi (Apr 1, 2017)

PJO1966 said:


> I'm having issues downgrading from Hydra. I followed the instructions and nothing happens. I tried rebooting and then entering the code again and I have the same problem. I think I'm just going to try to transfer my programs from Roamio and see if there's an issue. If not, there's no reason for me to downgrade and then upgrade again.


After upgrading my new TiVo VOX's hard drive I couldn't get it to it to downgrade Hydra either. After a couple of days I realized it downgraded when I put in the new hard drive. duh


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'm connected to the internet via Ethernet. 

It's definitely on Hydra. 

I left my Roamio recordings transferring overnight. We'll see if there are any issues.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

PJO1966 said:


> The top was a bear to remove but I got it off. I broke a couple of the tabs in the process, but it still went back on cleanly. I'm going through the guided setup now.


Fewer tabs to get in the way. 

Have you tested a few of the programs yet? I would select one with SM and skip through it.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Fewer tabs to get in the way.
> 
> Have you tested a few of the programs yet? I would select one with SM and skip through it.


it looks like only a handful transferred over


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

The problem was I didn't give it enough time to transfer all the shows over. I left it alone for a couple of days and it's done. I've tested several of the hour long episodes and they appear to be fine. I believe I'll be able to do a factory reset on the Roamio tomorrow and cancel TV and phone from Spectrum.

I tried moving my One Passes over via the web, but once they arrived on the Bolt they almost immediately disappeared.


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)




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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Seeing the Bolt OTA in its black color, I'm liking my Bolt (original) in its original, clean white.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> The problem was I didn't give it enough time to transfer all the shows over. I left it alone for a couple of days and it's done. I've tested several of the hour long episodes and they appear to be fine. I believe I'll be able to do a factory reset on the Roamio tomorrow and cancel TV and phone from Spectrum.
> 
> I tried moving my One Passes over via the web, but once they arrived on the Bolt they almost immediately disappeared.


Once again, I was being entirely too impatient when trying to move One Passes over. I got that all set up and did a factory reset on the Roamio. I haven't watched anything recorded on the Bolt yet. I've got a little catching up to do with Roamio recordings.

I know I've mentioned it before, but I really like the new interface. There's still a bit of a learning curve, especially with the back button. But I like a lot of the new features.

The episode filmstrip when scrolling through shows had already come in handy. Is easy to recognize shows that we've already watched on another device after seeing the thumbnail pop up.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'm having trouble adding the new Bolt to Harmony. I tried using the Bolt OTA model number (TCD849500) with no luck. I also tried TCD849300 which is the Bolt+ with no luck either. 

Any suggestions?


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

PJO1966 said:


> I'm having trouble adding the new Bolt to Harmony. I tried using the Bolt OTA model number (TCD849500) with no luck. I also tried TCD849300 which is the Bolt+ with no luck either.
> 
> Any suggestions?


Contact Logitech. They might not be ware of the new TiVo VOX remote.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

PJO1966 said:


> In our house, sticking with TiVo rather than one of the many cloud DVRs we tried is worth every penny.


Is the reason better picture quality, no delay compared to streaming or both?


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

aaronwt said:


> That also depends on the cable system. On FiOS in my area, a recording from my Bolts from a local station on FiOS is the same size as a recording made from OTA on my Roamio.
> 
> Although OTA quality has been decreasing over the years in my area. As they have added more and more sub-channels.


Ya my cable box says it's giving me 2160 4k but the 720p from my antenna looks better


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

cldlhd said:


> Is the reason better picture quality, no delay compared to streaming or both?


Picture quality was fine on DTV Now. It was the lack of trick play that keeps us with TiVo. I tried programming the Harmony to replicate what happens when you hit play while FFing on a TiVo. It never came close. It was always clunky compared to TiVo.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

Soooo I was in Best Buy yesterday and the old male gadget impulse got the best of me and I picked up a Bolt OTA. I took it home and hooked it up and while I was impressed with some things I thought the picture quality wasn't as good as the antenna hooked right to my LG OLED. So I put a splitter in with one line directly to the TV and the other to the Bolt. I switched inputs back and forth and the picture is clearly better connected right to the TV. Some of this may be down to LG's "smart picture"mode only available on the coaxial input but since I don't record a lot of broadcast channels I'm thinking about returning it.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

We finally got to watch a show that was recorded off the antenna (as opposed to the ones transferred from Roamio). It was flawless. The picture and audio were great. I'm not really surprised since we've watched a few NFL games live since installing the roof antenna. I'm happy with my purchase.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cldlhd said:


> Soooo I was in Best Buy yesterday and the old male gadget impulse got the best of me and I picked up a Bolt OTA. I took it home and hooked it up and while I was impressed with some things I thought the picture quality wasn't as good as the antenna hooked right to my LG OLED. So I put a splitter in with one line directly to the TV and the other to the Bolt. I switched inputs back and forth and the picture is clearly better connected right to the TV. Some of this may be down to LG's "smart picture"mode only available on the coaxial input but since I don't record a lot of broadcast channels I'm thinking about returning it.


It's the exact same signal, so your TV is doing something different in the video processing one way or the other. Also, are you sure the Bolt is set to output native resolution so that the TV can do all the scaling to get more of an apples to apples comparison? If it's set to 2160p output, the Bolt's scaler/processor may not be as good as what the TV has.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

cldlhd said:


> Soooo I was in Best Buy yesterday and the old male gadget impulse got the best of me and I picked up a Bolt OTA. I took it home and hooked it up and while I was impressed with some things I thought the picture quality wasn't as good as the antenna hooked right to my LG OLED. So I put a splitter in with one line directly to the TV and the other to the Bolt. I switched inputs back and forth and the picture is clearly better connected right to the TV. Some of this may be down to LG's "smart picture"mode only available on the coaxial input but since I don't record a lot of broadcast channels I'm thinking about returning it.


There is something slightly funky with Tivo output. Most don't notice it. Some believe it's the Broadcom CPU.

Can we talk about Tivo Picture Qaulity


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

PJO1966 said:


> We finally got to watch a show that was recorded off the antenna (as opposed to the ones transferred from Roamio). It was flawless. The picture and audio were great. I'm not really surprised since we've watched a few NFL games live since installing the roof antenna. I'm happy with my purchase.


I'm glad you're happy with it. Maybe it's specific to the TV but I can clearly see the difference. I taped the same show using the xg1v4 cable box and the Bolt OTA and the Bolt was barely better. Then flipping between OTA on the TV and the Bolt today the TV was much better. It's a good product but since I mostly tape cable shows it's not worth it for me. I'll use the antenna for live viewing.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

Bigg said:


> It's the exact same signal, so your TV is doing something different in the video processing one way or the other. Also, are you sure the Bolt is set to output native resolution so that the TV can do all the scaling to get more of an apples to apples comparison? If it's set to 2160p output, the Bolt's scaler/processor may not be as good as what the TV has.


The bolt wouldn't let me set it to 2160 only 1080p.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> There is something slightly funky with Tivo output. Most don't notice it. Some believe it's the Broadcom CPU.
> 
> Can we talk about Tivo Picture Qaulity


Thanks for the link


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

Bigg said:


> It's the exact same signal, so your TV is doing something different in the video processing one way or the other. Also, are you sure the Bolt is set to output native resolution so that the TV can do all the scaling to get more of an apples to apples comparison? If it's set to 2160p output, the Bolt's scaler/processor may not be as good as what the TV has.


Well I thought about messing around with the output settings but already disconnected it and boxed it up.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cldlhd said:


> Well I thought about messing around with the output settings but already disconnected it and boxed it up.


Ok. You should have tried native though. That would probably make a difference, as it's sounds like you just have a really good video processor, and the Bolt's is only mediocre.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

Bigg said:


> Ok. You should have tried native though. That would probably make a difference, as it's sounds like you just have a really good video processor, and the Bolt's is only mediocre.


Thanks. If I remember correctly there was "auto" available but I don't recall native. I guess in the end since I don't DVR many broadcast shows then for me I would need a streaming cable replacement if I got rid of cable so having that and the bolt OTA wouldn't make a lot of sense just to have the few shows I would tape on it look better than with streaming. I figure I'll use the antenna and the better picture when watching things live like the local news or Sports.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

cldlhd said:


> Thanks. If I remember correctly there was "auto" available but I don't recall native. I guess in the end since I don't DVR many broadcast shows then for me I would need a streaming cable replacement if I got rid of cable so having that and the bolt OTA wouldn't make a lot of sense just to have the few shows I would tape on it look better than with streaming. I figure I'll use the antenna and the better picture when watching things live like the local news or Sports.


I think auto or passthrough is native. Don't forget PBS, although you can do Passport to get that streaming.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

cldlhd said:


> Thanks. If I remember correctly there was "auto" available but I don't recall native.


Native would mean you are sending out all resolutions as they are received. To do that just check all the boxes. The "Pass through" are just for streaming, but you can check them too. This will cause your TV to adjust for the changing resolutions, usually with a short delay.

Auto just means use what your TV reports back what it prefers. With my 1080p TV, TE3 prefers 1080i60. With TE4 it prefers 1080p60. I figure my TV was made to watch TV, so I only check 1080i. I seldom watch sports, Fox or ABC, so 720p isn't a problem.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> Native would mean you are sending out all resolutions as they are received. To do that just check all the boxes. The "Pass through" are just for streaming, but you can check them too. This will cause your TV to adjust for the changing resolutions, usually with a short delay.
> 
> Auto just means use what your TV reports back what it prefers. With my 1080p TV, TE3 prefers 1080i60. With TE4 it prefers 1080p60. I figure my TV was made to watch TV, so I only check 1080i. I seldom watch sports, Fox or ABC, so 720p isn't a problem.


I figured that's what auto did but the TV is 4k and it chose 1080p/60fps. I realized most of what I watch on the major broadcast networks is local news and sports and I rarely DVR either . I would like the ability to pause and rewind live TV but that in and of itself isn't worth a monthly fee or another box to me.


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## cldlhd (Sep 23, 2018)

Bigg said:


> I think auto or passthrough is native. Don't forget PBS, although you can do Passport to get that streaming.


I do watch a few shows on PBS so as I still have cable, for now, I'll either DVR or watch those shows live if possible.


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## IRJ (Jan 9, 2009)

A question for TIVO Bolt users regarding playing broadcast networks such as ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC etc.
Is the audio quality of the OTA sourced signal better, or the same as that of the same Cable broadcast channels?
My thin king is that Cable dumbs down signals as much as they can so I am wondering if the OTA audio signal is better?
Thanks.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

IRJ said:


> A question for TIVO Bolt users regarding playing broadcast networks such as ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC etc.
> Is the audio quality of the OTA sourced signal better, or the same as that of the same Cable broadcast channels?
> My thin king is that Cable dumbs down signals as much as they can so I am wondering if the OTA audio signal is better?
> Thanks.


My cable was viewed through a Roamio, and I now watch broadcast through bolt OTA. The sound is much better now.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

IRJ said:


> A question for TIVO Bolt users regarding playing broadcast networks such as ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC etc.
> Is the audio quality of the OTA sourced signal better, or the same as that of the same Cable broadcast channels?
> My thin king is that Cable dumbs down signals as much as they can so I am wondering if the OTA audio signal is better?
> Thanks.


Most cable systems don't re-compress OTA, but a few do. Comcast is now compressing to 720p MPEG-4 in Chicago and Philly, and will eventually do that nationwide.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

IRJ said:


> A question for TIVO Bolt users regarding playing broadcast networks such as ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC etc.
> Is the audio quality of the OTA sourced signal better, or the same as that of the same Cable broadcast channels?
> My thin king is that Cable dumbs down signals as much as they can so I am wondering if the OTA audio signal is better?
> Thanks.


With an AVR it's easy to get exact data. My HD content is usually DD 5.1 but there are exceptions. CNN is usually DD EX. Comedy Central and some CW is DD 2.0. None of my cable channels are PCM, not even the local message channel. I have a Roamio, but my cable feed does not alter the content in any way. Not wishing to go astray, but my playback on all channels is at least 6db lower than the live stream.

edit: My feed of WPIX (New York) has DD 5.1 audio with a 384kbps bitrate. The dialog is showing -3dB. Perhaps someone in NY with OTA can get a reading. The video, 1080i, is 11.85Mbps. It has three 480i sub-channels. (One hour uses 5.21GB)


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## IRJ (Jan 9, 2009)

cidlhd

Have you looked at Acorn TV?
Acorn TV | Watch the Best British TV | Start Your Free Trial


cldlhd said:


> I do watch a few shows on PBS so as I still have cable, for now, I'll either DVR or watch those shows live if possible.


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## al_wilson2 (Sep 14, 2016)

pj1983 said:


> I'm not looking to pick up another Bolt, but I'll ask: is this just a Bolt VOX with the CC bracket deleted? There are varying assessments around here about the quality of the Bolt's tuner.


I have a Roamio OTA, a Bolt, and now a Bolt OTA. I bought the bolt and a mini together used off of facebook marketplace. Tivo gave me a free year on the bolt, so I swapped it out with my Roamio OTA. For the past six months, I have noticed frequent choppiness in OTA channels on the Bolt. Good news. 2 weeks now on the Bolt OTA, and my reception is excellent. It may even be better reception than the Roamio. I use an outdoor antenna that is mounted 30' high, so my reception has nothing to do with moving an indoor antenna while swapping tuners.


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## al_wilson2 (Sep 14, 2016)

Mikeguy said:


> Seeing the Bolt OTA in its black color, I'm liking my Bolt (original) in its original, clean white.


I like the black. All the components in my cabinet are black, so now it blends in.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> *The Roamio OTA and BOLT OTA use the same tuner*, and we have lab tested them against each other to ensure that the BOLT is as good a tuner as Roamio.


My sincere apologies for being unwilling to seine the thread for the answer, but does this also then mean that the BOLT OTA uses a different OTA tuner from the 4-tuner BOLT models capable of OTA or CableCARD?

edit: The following recent post, in combination with Ted's, leads me to believe "yes":


al_wilson2 said:


> For the past six months, I have noticed frequent choppiness in OTA channels on the Bolt. Good news. 2 weeks now on the Bolt OTA, and my reception is excellent. It may even be better reception than the Roamio.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

It's been a very long time since I've had a TiVo project with OTA, but the signal on the new Bolt has been rock solid. Also, having a roof antenna installed was the right thing to do.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> My sincere apologies for being unwilling to seine the thread for the answer, but does this also then mean that the BOLT OTA uses a different OTA tuner from the 4-tuner BOLT models capable of OTA or CableCARD?
> 
> edit: The following recent post, in combination with Ted's, leads me to believe "yes"


Yes. The Bolt OTA uses the Roamio OTA tuner. The regular Bolt uses an inferior tuner. No one really knows or cares about the Bolt+, since it is cable-only, so signal strength shouldn't be an issue.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> No one really knows or cares about the Bolt+...


... nor was it mentioned in the quoted post.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> ... nor was it mentioned in the quoted post.


Just trying to be thorough...


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> Just trying to be thorough...


... by bringing-up a device clearly excluded from the scope of the question.


krkaufman said:


> ... from the 4-tuner BOLT models capable of OTA or CableCARD?


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## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bigg said:


> Yes. The Bolt OTA uses the Roamio OTA tuner. The regular Bolt uses an inferior tuner. No one really knows or cares about the Bolt+, since it is cable-only, so signal strength shouldn't be an issue.


For what it's worth, I get the exact same number of channels with my Roamio OTA that I do with my regular Bolt.


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## BrucePadgett (Dec 29, 2016)

Bigg said:


> Yes. The Bolt OTA uses the Roamio OTA tuner. The regular Bolt uses an inferior tuner. No one really knows or cares about the Bolt+, since it is cable-only, so signal strength shouldn't be an issue.


And sadly, the PQ on the Roamio OTA I had was less focused than my TV's. Which means the Bolt OTA is a no-purchase for me, unless the resulting signal is somehow processed differently.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

BrucePadgett said:


> And sadly, the PQ on the Roamio OTA I had was less focused than my TV's. Which means the Bolt OTA is a no-purchase for me, unless the resulting signal is somehow processed differently.


I don't know. I'm a VQ snob extraordinaire, and I've never had an issue with the Roamio. I don't think it's decoder is the best though. I might set it up with my old video processor the next time I move though, as it does a really good job of cleaning up MPEG-2.


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## BrucePadgett (Dec 29, 2016)

Bigg said:


> I don't know. I'm a VQ snob extraordinaire, and I've never had an issue with the Roamio. I don't think it's decoder is the best though. I might set it up with my old video processor the next time I move though, as it does a really good job of cleaning up MPEG-2.


My Channel Master's tuner is as good as my Sony TV's, and recordings from the Channel Master are virtual clones. The OTA Roamio produced an inferior image, less focused and with poorer contrast. Whether that's because of its tuner or some kind of internal processing, I cannot say. But I will concede that the Roamio's tuner was more sensitive than the Channel Master's, picking up problematic signals more easily.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

BrucePadgett said:


> And sadly, the PQ on the Roamio OTA I had was less focused than my TV's. Which means the Bolt OTA is a no-purchase for me, unless the resulting signal is somehow processed differently.


And that may simply be that the Roamio has an internal 4 way splitter to feed signal to four tuners where you TV is hardwired from the antenna input to the TV's internal tuner. If you want multiple tuners in a box there has to be a splitter in the box and that will degrade the signal each internal tuner sees.

A two tuner DVR will have less signal degradation than a four tuner DVR and a single tuner DVR will have the least signal degradation, but for me four tuners are preferred to less tuners so I'll live with the compromise.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

just4tivo said:


> And that may simply be that the Roamio has an internal 4 way splitter to feed signal to four tuners where you TV is hardwired from the antenna input to the TV's internal tuner. If you want multiple tuners in a box there has to be a splitter in the box and that will degrade the signal each internal tuner sees.
> 
> A two tuner DVR will have less signal degradation than a four tuner DVR and a single tuner DVR will have the least signal degradation, but for me four tuners are preferred to less tuners so I'll live with the compromise.


Maybe I'll regret asking, but how can I measure the signal quality? Assume I am blind.


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## BrucePadgett (Dec 29, 2016)

just4tivo said:


> And that may simply be that the Roamio has an internal 4 way splitter to feed signal to four tuners where you TV is hardwired from the antenna input to the TV's internal tuner. If you want multiple tuners in a box there has to be a splitter in the box and that will degrade the signal each internal tuner sees.
> 
> A two tuner DVR will have less signal degradation than a four tuner DVR and a single tuner DVR will have the least signal degradation, but for me four tuners are preferred to less tuners so I'll live with the compromise.


The Channel Master has two tuners, and the image it produces equals, and maybe even exceeds, the Sony TV's. Could the two extra tuners in the Roamio really cause that much degradation? I read on another thread here that the way the TiVO box processes the received signal may be the culprit.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

BrucePadgett said:


> The Channel Master has two tuners, and the image it produces equals, and maybe even exceeds, the Sony TV's. Could the two extra tuners in the Roamio really cause that much degradation? I read on another thread here that the way the TiVO box processes the received signal may be the culprit.


It is not the number of tuners it is the number of signal splits. In my experience the more taps of the incoming signal the more signal loss. The specific circuitry of a Roamio may or may not have an effect but the number of "splits" of the incoming RF signal DEFINITELY causes signal loss.

I've run 2 way splitters feeding two devices and 4 way splitters feeding two devices with two taps capped and the four way splitter had less signal at the two devices.

If you want to experiment add a 4 way splitter in your antenna lead to your TV tuner and see how that looks with your eyes and signal strength meter if your TV has one.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Same cable feed/splitter output: One Sony TV - 74%, one two-tuner Premiere - 84%, two basic Roamio - 90% on both (all four tuners). All have 36dB SNR.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

just4tivo said:


> And that may simply be that the Roamio has an internal 4 way splitter to feed signal to four tuners where you TV is hardwired from the antenna input to the TV's internal tuner. If you want multiple tuners in a box there has to be a splitter in the box and that will degrade the signal each internal tuner sees.
> 
> A two tuner DVR will have less signal degradation than a four tuner DVR and a single tuner DVR will have the least signal degradation, but for me four tuners are preferred to less tuners so I'll live with the compromise.


For a digital signal, I'm not sure that would translate to picture quality however. Whether signal strength is stronger or not -- if the digital signal is decoded, it is rendered. This sounds like more of a signal processed issue than a signal strength issue.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

eherberg said:


> For a digital signal, I'm not sure that would translate to picture quality however. Whether signal strength is stronger or not -- if the digital signal is decoded, it is rendered. This sounds like more of a signal processed issue than a signal strength issue.


Yes, for any OTA device I have had, whether the signal strength is 100 or 30, as long as its enough to have a stable picture, they will look the same.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

just4tivo said:


> And that may simply be that the Roamio has an internal 4 way splitter to feed signal to four tuners where you TV is hardwired from the antenna input to the TV's internal tuner.


That has absolutely nothing to do with VQ. I can't believe the discussion has already gone this far off the rails. *Splitting a signal and getting a weaker signal has zero affect on picture quality when using a digital signal.* The signal either works or it doesn't. Further, TiVos are dumping the stream directly to disk, so it's not the recording process. These are not analog devices like the S2's where the encoding mattered. Period.

If there is a difference in picture quality, and I believe there is, based on multiple posts here about it, it is in the MPEG-2 decoding and processing as the DVR is reading it off of the drive, decoding, it processing it, and outputting it to HDMI. It may be possible to clean the picture up using an external video processor or a TV with a very advanced video processor, like Sony's X1 Extreme, but it will never quite be the same as what you're getting on the TV's own tuner. It may be better or worse depending on how the TiVo handles the decoding versus the TV.

It's possible that different TiVos have different processors or picture quality as well, and *it depends entirely on the TiVo playing the recording back, not the TiVo recording it.* Any TiVo from the S3 through the Bolt OTA would be recording a stream that is bit for bit identical, _assuming that all of them have enough signal strength to get a reliable signal._


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Bigg said:


> That has absolutely nothing to do with VQ. I can't believe the discussion has already gone this far off the rails. *Splitting a signal and getting a weaker signal has zero affect on picture quality when using a digital signal.* The signal either works or it doesn't.


Surely you don't really mean this. I get some macro blocking on a weak signal (40-ish on the Tivo antenna strength scale), but it's still watchable. The picture doesn't go black until around 30. Reducing splits can result in a marked improvement.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mdavej said:


> Surely you don't really mean this. I get some macro blocking on a weak signal (40-ish on the Tivo antenna strength scale), but it's still watchable. The picture doesn't go black until around 30. Reducing splits can result in a marked improvement.


That's not macro blocking, which is due to over-compression, _that's just plain losing part of the signal_. You are below the threshold where the signal just stops working. Yes, it can blip out, but *that's not a picture quality issue or video quality issue*, that's a stability issue where you are momentarily *losing a usable signal entirely*.

Being clear about video qualtiy or picture quality versus just not getting the signal is extremely important here.

I occasionally get a stripe across the middle of the screen on my Roamio OTA. This is NOT a video/picture quality issue, this is just losing a chunk of the signal. There is an extremely narrow band with ATSC-8VSB between getting 100% of the signal and getting 0%. ATSC-8VSB does not degrade gracefully like analog, you either get it or you don't.

Again, *splitting the signal for multiple tuners does not affect video/picture quality*. ATSC-8VSB is an all-or-nothing proposition, excluding a tiny band where glitchiness can make parts of the picture disappear, *but video/image quality remains constant*.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Semantics. Compression, data transfer speed, signal interruption and video processing performance ALL contribute to macro blocking. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this. When I see a picture with missing data on it, that's worse image quality than a picture with all the data on it. Of course what's not missing is still perfect, obviously since it's digital. But I'm talking about the whole picture. On marginal signals, I always got a better picture (fewer bits missing on the screen) on my dual tuner devices than on my 4 or 6 tuner devices, due precisely to the weaker signal caused by additional splits. I see missing bands or blocks on weak signals long before I lose the picture entirely. So it isn't all or nothing, and it's not immune to weakening the signal due to excessive splits. Back when I had an 8-way splitter, I could barely get a signal at all. When I replaced it with a 2-way, my picture improved immensely as most of the breakups went away.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

My $0.02: I think that there are probably two different issues in terms of video quality that are being discussed above, although different word choices are being used by different people to talk about them. Here's how I tend to phrase/think about it:

One issue is about reception of the signal. In that case, yes, signal strength definitely matters. Once signal strength drops below a certain point, pixelation/break-ups/freezes in the picture and audio are more likely. Those sort of disruptions are very noticeable and have a big negative impact on video quality. And yes, splitting the incoming signal to multiple tuners can cause the signal strength reaching each tuner to drop and therefore result in more of those disruptions.

The other issue is about video processing. This is a much more subtle matter of picture quality and it doesn't have anything to do with signal strength. Rather, it just has to do with how good the hardware/firmware/software in the output device and/or TV is at presenting the visual information encoded in the digital stream. This latter issue is discussed at length with regard to TiVo in this thread:
Can we talk about Tivo Picture Qaulity


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mdavej said:


> Semantics. Compression, data transfer speed, signal interruption and video processing performance ALL contribute to macro blocking. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this. When I see a picture with missing data on it, that's worse image quality than a picture with all the data on it. Of course what's not missing is still perfect, obviously since it's digital. But I'm talking about the whole picture. On marginal signals, I always got a better picture (fewer bits missing on the screen) on my dual tuner devices than on my 4 or 6 tuner devices, due precisely to the weaker signal caused by additional splits. I see missing bands or blocks on weak signals long before I lose the picture entirely. So it isn't all or nothing, and it's not immune to weakening the signal due to excessive splits. Back when I had an 8-way splitter, I could barely get a signal at all. When I replaced it with a 2-way, my picture improved immensely as most of the breakups went away.


Again, losing a chunk of the image is *something completely different* from over-compression or poor decoding/processing.

That's not an image quality issue, that's an issue of not getting part of the image you were supposed to get in the first place. If there are too many splits in the signal, then you need a distribution amplifier.


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## mdavej (Aug 13, 2015)

Still completely disagree with your definition of quality. An image that has missing chunks is worse quality than an image not missing any chunks. Let's say you have two identical copies of the Mona Lisa. Now you take a knife and completely cut out part of one. Which one is higher quality, the perfect one, or the one with part of it missing? Using your logic, the quality of both is the same because all the parts still intact are identical on both paintings. But ask anyone passing on the street to compare the quality of the two, everybody will say the one with nothing missing is higher quality.

And there's no way I'm wasting money on an amp when I can simply reduce splits.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

mdavej said:


> Still completely disagree with your definition of quality. An image that has missing chunks is worse quality than an image not missing any chunks. Let's say you have two identical copies of the Mona Lisa. Now you take a knife and completely cut out part of one. Which one is higher quality, the perfect one, or the one with part of it missing? Using your logic, the quality of both is the same because all the parts still intact are identical on both paintings. But ask anyone passing on the street to compare the quality of the two, everybody will say the one with nothing missing is higher quality.


Part of the signal missing is not the same is picture/video quality. Two different things. You're talking about a *reliability issue*, where you're not always receiving the signal in it's entirety. Your Mona Lisa is the same quality, it's just missing a part of it.



> And there's no way I'm wasting money on an amp when I can simply reduce splits.


Right, you don't have to if you don't need the splits in the first place. If you need them, an amplifier would be the logical choice.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

mdavej said:


> Still completely disagree with your definition of quality. An image that has missing chunks is worse quality than an image not missing any chunks. Let's say you have two identical copies of the Mona Lisa. Now you take a knife and completely cut out part of one. Which one is higher quality, the perfect one, or the one with part of it missing? Using your logic, the quality of both is the same because all the parts still intact are identical on both paintings. But ask anyone passing on the street to compare the quality of the two, everybody will say the one with nothing missing is higher quality.
> 
> And there's no way I'm wasting money on an amp when I can simply reduce splits.


The discussion of quality was listed as 'less-focused and poorer contrast' to which just4tivo posted the internal signal splits as a cause. These further definitions aren't even related to the statement earlier in the thread. Yes -- low signal levels can cause macro-blocking and picture breakup, but that definition was introduced outside of the discussion. (Plus - the amplification internally adjusts to it, so low-signal level is likely due to antenna/cable problems). The initial statement of 4 internal tuners vs 2 having an impact on a digital signal's viewed picture contrast is the ridiculous part and points to a tuner video processing source -- not the number of tuners in the box.


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

TiVo Bolt OTA DVR review: More features, but many familiar drawbacks as well


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Lurker1 said:


> TiVo Bolt OTA DVR review: More features, but many familiar drawbacks as well


Bulky noisy hardware? That's weird.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> Bulky noisy hardware? That's weird.


Mine doesn't make a sound, and it's much smaller than the Roamio.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

JoeKustra said:


> Bulky noisy hardware? That's weird.


He's probably comparing it to popular streaming devices, not against other DVRs. Compared to a small fanless Roku/Fire TV/Apple TV box or stick with no hard drive, any DVR is going to seem somewhat bulky and noisy, I guess.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I can’t hear a peep from my Bolt unless I put my ear up to the box. Somehow I don’t usually watch tv inside my cabinet.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Lurker1 said:


> TiVo Bolt OTA DVR review: More features, but many familiar drawbacks as well


A gem of a line:


> A pair of USB ports around back can charge your phone, but you can't plug external hard drives into them.


 So true.

(And, just why _are_ there 2 USB ports there (and 2 of them)? From the company that got rid of composite or component connections on the Roamio (standard)/Roamio OTA in favor of a "uni-port" requiring a special break-out cable, presumably to save itself $, you would have thought that TiVo would have chosen to save $ and eliminate the Bolt's USB ports. Leaving possibilities open for the future?)


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

Mikeguy said:


> (And, just why _are_ there 2 USB ports there (and 2 of them)? From the company that got rid of composite or component connections on the Roamio (standard)/Roamio OTA in favor of a "uni-port" requiring a special break-out cable, presumably to save itself $, you would have thought that TiVo would have chosen to save $ and eliminate the Bolt's USB ports. Leaving possibilities open for the future?)


They have to keep at least one USB port for cable systems that require tuning adapters. The Roamios need two since they need a bluetooth dongle for the new Vox remotes. They could cut the Bolts down to one USB port, but the price difference between one and two USB ports is probably a penny or two. May as well keep the extra one for future needs. Maybe they can use it to add ATSC 3 or IPTV support down the road.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

OrangeCrush said:


> They have to keep at least one USB port for cable systems that require tuning adapters. The Roamios need two since they need a bluetooth dongle for the new Vox remotes. They could cut the Bolts down to one USB port, but the price difference between one and two USB ports is probably a penny or two. May as well keep the extra one for future needs. Maybe they can use it to add ATSC 3 or IPTV support down the road.


Was it the Premiere that you needed a hub if you had a Wireless G adapter, remote dongle, and TA? There's also the RF remote dongle for the slide remote on the Premiere and Minis, although I believe both RF and Bluetooth are built into the Bolt series, so it would be down to just a TA? I remember how the S2 needed USB to get guide data, as you needed a Wireless G or Ethernet adapter unless you had a phone line next to your TV for the modem. Can't you also connect an actual keyboard to a TiVo? I'm not sure why you would....

Good point about future support for who knows what. I'm not sure how USB would help IPTV, unless it's a crypto dongle issues by the cable company a la CableCard. I can just imagine Charter or Cox or somebody launching IPTV while still running SDV, and certain high end packages requiring a TA and a crypto dongle lol.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

That review isn't very good overall, but it does touch on a good point- sort of. MoCA seems to make people's heads explode, even though it's the simplest form of networking I've ever seen, and Comcast, Cox, Verizon, DirecTV, RCN, and others have millions of multi-room MoCA systems installed. That, plus $180/mini means that they really need to get the apps together that can wirelessly stream to streaming devices in other rooms so that the Bolt OTA doesn't end up as a single-room DVR for most users, as multi-room was something TiVo did before anyone else, and they need to leverage that as part of the package, especially at $500 for the Bolt OTA.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

OrangeCrush said:


> They have to keep at least one USB port for cable systems that require tuning adapters. The Roamios need two since they need a bluetooth dongle for the new Vox remotes. They could cut the Bolts down to one USB port, but the price difference between one and two USB ports is probably a penny or two. May as well keep the extra one for future needs. Maybe they can use it to add ATSC 3 or IPTV support down the road.


Well I started down that path too but then realized he was referring to the new Bolt OTA which is OTA-only so cable use and no TA. 

I do think it gives them options in the future though for external devices.

Scott


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> Well I started down that path too but then realized he was referring to the new Bolt OTA which is OTA-only so cable use and no TA.
> 
> I do think it gives them options in the future though for external devices.


They changed the tuner, but otherwise, it appears to be the same motherboard that the cable Bolt uses- why would they take something as cheap and _Universal _as USB off? I agree about future expansion, I mean, why not? You can connect about anything through USB.


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## OrangeCrush (Feb 18, 2016)

Bigg said:


> They changed the tuner, but otherwise, it appears to be the same motherboard that the cable Bolt uses- why would they take something as cheap and _Universal _as USB off? I agree about future expansion, I mean, why not? You can connect about anything through USB.


Is it a different tuner than the original 4-tuner bolt had? I figured they just left out the cable card bracket and MoCA hardware, but it was otherwise the same platform similar to the way it was with the Roamios.


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## smark (Nov 20, 2002)

OrangeCrush said:


> Is it a different tuner than the original 4-tuner bolt had? I figured they just left out the cable card bracket and MoCA hardware, but it was otherwise the same platform similar to the way it was with the Roamios.


Word is that it has the Roamio OTA tuner set in there.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I would be very interested if it counts RS Corrected errors. No other four tuner Bolt or Roamio has that working.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

OrangeCrush said:


> Is it a different tuner than the original 4-tuner bolt had? I figured they just left out the cable card bracket and MoCA hardware, but it was otherwise the same platform similar to the way it was with the Roamios.


It's been confirmed that they used the Roamio OTA tuner, which is better with OTA reception than the one in the Bolt. I wouldn't use a Bolt for OTA unless you're in a really strong reception area.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> That review isn't very good overall, but it does touch on a good point- sort of. MoCA seems to make people's heads explode, even though it's the simplest form of networking I've ever seen, and Comcast, Cox, Verizon, DirecTV, RCN, and others have millions of multi-room MoCA systems installed.


What review?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> What review?


It's a few posts up the thread.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Mine doesn't make a sound, and it's much smaller than the Roamio.


All TiVos with hard drives make noise. From the fan and from the hard drive. I can easily hear any of them from 15+ feet away in a quiet room.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> All TiVos with hard drives make noise. From the fan and from the hard drive. I can easily hear any of them from 15+ feet away in a quiet room.


Mine's not in a cabinet and I was standing right next to it. I heard nothing.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Mine's not in a cabinet and I was standing right next to it. I heard nothing.


Neither can my GF when she is right next to a TiVo. But I've always been able to easily hear a fan or hard drive from far away in a quiet room.

I can even hear a ticking clock from the other side of a house. Which is why I need the door closed in the clock room and the bedroom. I can even hear a ticking watch, covered by clothes, in a closed drawer.

the last few years I started using a white noise generator with the Amazon echo. To drown out all the extraneous noise that I can hear.

I can't count the number of times I'll hear people whispering something many rows up, on the shuttle at work. As if no one can hear them. Yet I can easily hear them talking, when the shuttle is not in motion. Usually the people around me can't hear as well as me. But I have run into a few people who can.

or a fire truck with sirens blaring. It is extremely loud to me and I need to cover my ears before it passes by. Yet most people I see have no problem with the loudness and don't need to cover their ears.


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## Scooby Doo (Dec 18, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Mine's not in a cabinet and I was standing right next to it. I heard nothing.


Not being rude, but this is probably an age thing. Have you tried one of those phone apps that measures your hearing frequency range? I was surprised how limited mine was compared to my kids!


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> It's a few posts up the thread.


What in that review triggered the recurrent "MoCA makes people's heads explode" comment? MoCA's not even mentioned in the article, and I didn't see any point close to MoCA being touched.


Bigg said:


> That review isn't very good overall, but it does touch on a good point- sort of. MoCA seems to make people's heads explode, even though it's the simplest form of networking I've ever seen, and Comcast, Cox, Verizon, DirecTV, RCN, and others have millions of multi-room MoCA systems installed.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

krkaufman said:


> What in that review triggered the recurrent "MoCA makes people's heads explode" comment? MoCA's not even mentioned in the article, and I didn't see any point close to MoCA being touched.


@Bigg has to work in either 'Moca makes people's heads explode|Comcast picture quality is awful|PBS is the only programming worthwhile' into a post every so often or _his_ head will explode. 

(PS: It's just a joke ... in case anybody's undergarments get bunched up).


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> What in that review triggered the recurrent "MoCA makes people's heads explode" comment? MoCA's not even mentioned in the article, and I didn't see any point close to MoCA being touched.


I was referring to the expandability of the system with TiVo Minis. For some reason, people just can't figure out how to set up MoCA even though it's the simplest wired network technology and topology that I've ever seen. Systems like Tablo, and soon TiVo, with the release of streaming apps that can stream from a Bolt OTA, will allow people to do it all wirelessly.



eherberg said:


> @Bigg has to work in either 'Moca makes people's heads explode|Comcast picture quality is awful|PBS is the only programming worthwhile' into a post every so often or _his_ head will explode.


Guilty as charged.


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## vivavivo (Oct 31, 2018)

JoeKustra said:


> With an AVR it's easy to get exact data. My HD content is usually DD 5.1 but there are exceptions. CNN is usually DD EX. Comedy Central and some CW is DD 2.0. None of my cable channels are PCM, not even the local message channel. I have a Roamio, but my cable feed does not alter the content in any way. Not wishing to go astray, but my playback on all channels is at least 6db lower than the live stream.
> 
> edit: My feed of WPIX (New York) has DD 5.1 audio with a 384kbps bitrate. The dialog is showing -3dB. Perhaps someone in NY with OTA can get a reading. The video, 1080i, is 11.85Mbps. It has three 480i sub-channels. (One hour uses 5.21GB)


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Just tried to watch TiVo for the first time in a few days. The power was completely off. I unplugged it and plugged it back in. It started powering up again, but then turned off. I'm going to try again with a longer pause before plugging it back in. Any other suggestion?


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Same result. I can hear the drive and/or the fan going, but there's no output and the green light is off.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

That was weird. I hit the TiVo button on the remote and everything came up. That didn't work before. Why would it boot up and not end up on the menu?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

TiVo usually boots to a live channel. But you should have seen graphics unless you walked away for a while and it was tuned to a non-existent channel for some reason


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

PJO1966 said:


> That was weird. I hit the TiVo button on the remote and everything came up. That didn't work before. Why would it boot up and not end up on the menu?


Sounds like it was in Standby mode.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I didn't walk away and it never went into a menu page. It went right into standby after the reboot.

It wasn't in standby when I first turned the TV on. I hit the TiVo button and nothing happened.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

PJO1966 said:


> I didn't walk away and it never went into a menu page. It went right into standby after the reboot.
> It wasn't in standby when I first turned the TV on. I hit the TiVo button and nothing happened.


I hate to add to your confusion, but when I have a snow day I may document the possibilities. Variables:
TiVo model & vintage,
TiVo software,
Mini or host? 
If I restart/power cycle my Roamio on TE3 it always finished with TiVo Central (or full screen after a while). It doesn't matter where it was when I pulled the plug.

If I put my Premiere into Standby, then pull its power, when I reapply power it will still be in Standby after a few minutes.

The Mini units (TE3/TE4) VOX/A93 have their own rules. I look at TE4 as a work in progress. Sorry I can't give you a logical explanation. Rules only apply to the old stuff.

On your Bolt, place it into Standby. Then pull the plug. Apply power. In what state is the Bolt after it's finished? That should be repeatable. Recently I'm questioning the assumption that Standby causes the tuner buffers to stop working with TE4 since the latest release. I'm still investigating.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> That was weird. I hit the TiVo button on the remote and everything came up. That didn't work before. Why would it boot up and not end up on the menu?


If it was in standby when you pull the power cord, it will go into standby after it boots. My TiVos have behaved this way for many years. Even my Roamios did this.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

aaronwt said:


> If it was in standby when you pull the power cord, it will go into standby after it boots. My TiVos have behaved this way for many years. Even my Roamios did this.


My basic Roamio always powers up to TiVo Central no matter how I power it off. My Premiere powers up into Standby only if I power it off in Standby. (both TE3).


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> If it was in standby when you pull the power cord, it will go into standby after it boots. My TiVos have behaved this way for many years. Even my Roamios did this.


If it had been in Standby, hitting the TiVo button on the remote would have woken it up. It didn't.


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## thompsr2 (Oct 21, 2015)

Has a Bolt OTA cablecard bracket conversion been attempted by anyone?


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


> That was weird. I hit the TiVo button on the remote and everything came up. That didn't work before. Why would it boot up and not end up on the menu?


Well a Tivo is a computer that just happens to record TV. Sooner or later everyone's computer will do something weird and never do it again. Don't worry at this point.


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## Lurker1 (Jun 4, 2004)

TiVo Bolt OTA review: A quick, slick cord-cutter solution, at a price


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I'll bet TiVo wished they had trademarked "Mini".


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Anyone have any experience with rollback from Hydra on the BOLT OTA? It may be too late, but this poster has been unable to get it to work ... and Weaknees told them that rollback isn't possible on the BOLT OTA.

Bolt OTA will not convert to HD menus


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> Anyone have any experience with rollback from Hydra on the BOLT OTA? It may be too late, but this poster has been unable to get it to work ... and Weaknees told them that rollback isn't possible on the BOLT OTA.
> 
> Bolt OTA will not convert to HD menus


Nevermind; @TiVo_Ted has stepped-in with a reply, stating that *TE3 is NOT supported on the BOLT OTA*:


TiVo_Ted said:


> BOLT OTA only supports TE4, and was only manufactured and tested with TE4. There is no way to downgrade to TE3.


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## CIR-Engineering (Sep 24, 2017)

krkaufman said:


> Nevermind; @TiVo_Ted has stepped-in with a reply, stating that *TE3 is NOT supported on the BOLT OTA*:
> ​


That's a shame. I'm sure it could be easily supported, but just a decision not to support TE3.

Oh well,
craigr


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## tapokata (Apr 26, 2017)

It doesn't surprise me that new hardware will only work with TE4. At some point, the feature set values in TE4 will outweigh the feature-differences from TE3 (and it already does, for many). It's really no different than Microsoft's changes to the Windows OS experience- at some point, even WindowsXP reached an end of life date for support.


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## Intheswamp (Nov 15, 2017)

tapokata said:


> It doesn't surprise me that new hardware will only work with TE4. At some point, the feature set values in TE4 will outweigh the feature-differences from TE3 (and it already does, for many). It's really no different than Microsoft's changes to the Windows OS experience- at some point, *even WindowsXP reached an end of life date for support*.


Soon to be followed by Windows 7.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> When using antenna, we believe the best thing to do is to connect the antenna directly to the BOLT OTA. If you want MOCA as well, it will be much better to use an external MOCA bridge. I can whip up a quick drawing if anyone would like some advice on how to do this.


There's no need for a diagram, but there *IS* a need to have erroneous diagrams on the TiVo Support site corrected or removed. Please see here:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151302584428367872
I've periodically been requesting this info be corrected for nearly 3 years, yet TiVo customers keep showing-up at TCF having been misled by the bad info.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> There's no need for a diagram, but there *IS* a need to have erroneous diagrams on the TiVo Support site corrected or removed. Please see here:
> 
> I've periodically been requesting this info be corrected for nearly 3 years, yet TiVo customers keep showing-up at TCF having been misled by the bad info.


Holy crap that's bad. I wonder what moron drew that one?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

krkaufman said:


> There's no need for a diagram, but there *IS* a need to have erroneous diagrams on the TiVo Support site corrected or removed. Please see here:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1151302584428367872
> I've periodically been requesting this info be corrected for nearly 3 years, yet TiVo customers keep showing-up at TCF having been misled by the bad info.


FYI I had a setup almost identical to that diagram and it worked fine. 

I have a TiVo Bolt in my office that is OTA only. Before I got my Actiontec MoCa 2.0 adapters I used it as the main MoCa bridge between my upstairs and downstairs networks. I didn't use a POE filter but I used a special splitter that was designed to combine DirecTV with antenna. I had my actual cable plugged into one side of the splitter and the antenna fed into the other. This allowed the Bolt to send the MoCa signal out to the cable without the cable interfering with the antenna signal going in to it. It also prevented the MoCa signal from getting broadcast out over the antenna.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> FYI I had a setup almost identical to that diagram and it worked fine.
> 
> I have a TiVo Bolt in my office that is OTA only. Before I got my Actiontec MoCa 2.0 adapters I used it as the main MoCa bridge between my upstairs and downstairs networks. I didn't use a POE filter but I used a special splitter that was designed to combine DirecTV with antenna.


DirecTV != cable. You CANNOT combine cable and antenna on the same cable. Best case scenario is nothing works, worst case is a visit from the FCC spectrum police and/or the FAA and/or the cable company.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> FYI I had a setup almost identical to that diagram and it worked fine.  ... but I used a special splitter that was designed to combine DirecTV with antenna


And that not being a splitter but *an antenna/satellite diplexer* makes all the difference in the world, and makes your setup entirely different from the TiVo diagram and eminently workable. You functionally isolated the antenna and cable signals, which the TiVo diagram entirely fails to do.

Just two posts down from the post linked in the tweet...


krkaufman said:


> I did a bit of digging and found a previous diagram that should help with your situation.
> 
> Leveraging the fact that MoCA frequencies conveniently reside up in the satellite frequency range, the following diagram illustrates how you can repurpose an antenna/satellite diplexer to get the antenna *and* MoCA signals to your BOLT, without the antenna and cable TV/Internet signals stepping on each other. The key is that a diplexer may look like a 2-way splitter, but it functions more as a conjoined filter, allowing only antenna frequencies through the "ANT (VHF/UHF)" port and MoCA signals through the "SAT" port.
> 
> ...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The thing I was using had a mhz range for each side. I can’t remember the exact values but one side blocked the values for everything below like 1000mhz so it only let the MoCa signal through. The other side was like under 800mhz so it blocked the MoCa but allowed the antenna through. It worked perfectly for years.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> The thing I was using had a mhz range for each side. I can't remember the exact values but one side blocked the values for everything below like 1000mhz so it only let the MoCa signal through. The other side was like under 800mhz so it blocked the MoCa but allowed the antenna through. It worked perfectly for years.


Yes, understood; as explained in the post I quoted. But not a splitter and so your setup was entirely different from what TiVo is suggesting to customers in their diagram.







​The last thing we need is anybody suggesting the TiVo diagram is worth consideration.

edit: p.s. Alternatives to the TiVo diagram posted in the past...












​


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Yeah that second alternative image is basically what I had. Except the diplexer thing was filtered to a max of 800mhz IIRC so there was no need for a POE filter on the antenna input. The diplexer itself was acting as the POE filter.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> Yes, understood; as explained in the post I quoted. But not a splitter and so your setup was entirely different from what TiVo is suggesting to customers in their diagram.


That could work to pass MoCA, but it's really better to just keep them as two separate networks and buy a MoCA adapter for one side or the other.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Except the diplexer thing was filtered to a max of 800mhz IIRC so there was no need for a POE filter on the antenna input. The diplexer itself was acting as the POE filter.


Same specs as this diplexer. Whether you add the "PoE" MoCA filter depends on if you are satisfied with the 40 dB attenuation of the diplexer stop-band, or are looking to meet the 70 dB loss requirement specified by TiVo.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> That could work to pass MoCA, but it's really better to just keep them as two separate networks and buy a MoCA adapter for one side or the other.


Yes, as shown in the alternative diagram posted above. But better isn't always possible and workable is the fallback.

edit: p.s. It should be noted, given this is a BOLT OTA thread, that the above diagrams do not address the BOLT OTA's lack of MoCA functionality. A BOLT OTA would require an Ethernet connection to a MoCA adapter to get networked over the coax.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> edit: p.s. It should be noted, given this is a BOLT OTA thread, that the above diagrams do not address the BOLT OTA's lack of MoCA functionality. A BOLT OTA would require an Ethernet connection to a MoCA adapter to get networked over the coax.


In which case the diplexer thing is pointless. Just keep them separate.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> In which case the diplexer thing is pointless. Just keep them separate.


The DVR not having built-in MoCA functionality, or having it, is irrelevant to whether the diplexer workaround would be needed; it merely dictates whether a MoCA adapter would be needed at the DVR, or not.

Ironic given the authorship of this thread's OP and title:

Why does MoCA cause everyone's head to explode?​


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

krkaufman said:


> The DVR not having built-in MoCA functionality, or having it, is irrelevant to whether the diplexer workaround would be needed; it merely dictates whether a MoCA adapter would be needed at the DVR, or not.


If you have to have a separate adapter anyway, just use a separate coax line unless you've got a coax bottleneck in the house.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Bigg said:


> unless


Such a pesky little word.


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