# Premiere Elite - 2TB Quad Tuner



## shaown

Interesting

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/tivo-premiere-q-headed-to-retail-as-premier-elite/

Thanks,
-Shaown


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## MediaLivingRoom

shaown said:


> Interesting
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-06/tivo-premiere-q-headed-to-retail-as-premier-elite/
> 
> Thanks,
> -Shaown


I want a trade-in program for $50 to transfer lifetime all Tivo Premiere to Premiere Elite and have the unit cost for $200!


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## TVCricket

I want one too, but I have OTA only and sometimes 3 shows are on at the same time.


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## acvthree

Am I reading this right? No OTA?


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## steve614

No Q Elite for me. OTA only.


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## trip1eX

Hmmm interested but guessing they'll price it too high to keep me interested. Also would have to see if HDUI is any more responsive.


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## [email protected]

Sounds like it might be up my alley. But I don't need a "high-end retailer" for the install.


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## Series3Sub

Obviously designed to please the cable cos. Would be willing to buy this one if it had OTA capability, but it does not. How sad. The first new TiVo product I am actually excited about and am willing to pay for except that it has no OTA tuners. I am OTA and may have to end all pay TV and go streaming and OTA. Thanks, for nothing, TiVo.


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## ctcraig

Love it, OTA isn't something I care about so this could be perfect for me


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## innocentfreak

Perfect for me and hope the FCC approves the waiver.


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## SullyND

My questions are first, cost, second, how will it be able to interact with my TiVoHD (i.e. will it have certain features which only work with a Premiere)


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## innocentfreak

SullyND said:


> My questions are first, cost, second, how will it be able to interact with my TiVoHD (i.e. will it have certain features which only work with a Premiere)


As far as cost, my guess is either they will drop the xl model to $199 and sell the elite for $299 or the elite will run $399 to $499. Figure it costs $99 x 2 + $499 + $399 for two premieres with lifetime for a total of $1100, I don't see TiVo exceeding that which means the elite would cost $500 or less.

It will probably only work with the TiVo HD like the current Premiere does.

Most if not all TiVo to TiVo features will be based on the premiere platform such as streaming TiVo to TiVo.


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## djwilso

As long as it's under $1000 including lifetime, I will probably get one.


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## TWinbrook46636

steve614 said:


> No Q Elite for me. OTA only.


If you are OTA only why would you need 4 tuners though? There can't be that many conflicts on 20-30 OTA channels vs the hundreds you get with digital cable.


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## morac

TWinbrook46636 said:


> If you are OTA only why would you need 4 tuners though? There can't be that many conflicts on 20-30 OTA channels vs the hundreds you get with digital cable.


I'd think it's actually the opposite. With hundreds of cable channels, shows tend to be repeated throughout the week, many times across multiple channels (owned by the same company) . Broadcast stations tend to air programs once and that's it.


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## mattack

Why the heck would having analog tuners increase the power consumption by 1/3? That's a lot!

Even though I realize I don't get analog now on my TivoHD (I do record analog as a 'backup' on my S1 & XS32 for some shows), it is kind of a shame.. though no OTA is worse..

still, it's intriguing based upon price.


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## innocentfreak

My guess is the additional hardware and encoding pushes the power usage up.


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## morac

mattack said:


> Why the heck would having analog tuners increase the power consumption by 1/3? That's a lot!


Well the box wouldn't require an MPEG-2 encoder. Encoding video requires a lot of processing power, which is all done in dedicated hardware on the TiVo boxes. I'm not sure it really requires 1/3 more power though (especially if it's not used).


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## BigJimOutlaw

According to the filing, the power consumption is reduced from 32 watts to 24 watts by stripping the analog hardware. 8 watts for 4 encoding streams doesn't really sound unusual. I'm actually a little surprised it'd only takes 8 watts to do it. Go figure.


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## jcthorne

Guys, no where in the article does tivo say the proposed Premiere Elite does not have OTA tuners. Just no ANALOG tuners. The digital tuners likely have no difficulty with both ATSC and QAM signal decoding, in fact there are some cable operations that use ATSC.

Lack of analog tuners does not = no OTA, just digital OTA only which still covers 99% of all OTA programming.


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## Len McRiddles

steve614 said:


> No Q Elite for me. OTA only.


Same here.


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## mr.unnatural

TWinbrook46636 said:


> If you are OTA only why would you need 4 tuners though? There can't be that many conflicts on 20-30 OTA channels vs the hundreds you get with digital cable.


My HTPC has four ATSC tuners and I use all four of them on a regular basis. I pad the recordings to make sure there's no glitch in the program guide or the clock setting on the PC that would cause me to miss part of a recording, It's not unusual for me to record four shows such that two are in one time slot followed by two more in the next time slot. During the overlap period all four tuners will be recording at once. I've also got an InfiniTV4 with four digital cable tuners and I occasionally see six or seven shows being recorded simultaneously on some nights, especially when the new fall season starts up.



innocentfreak said:


> My guess is the additional hardware and encoding pushes the power usage up.


There shouldn't have to be any encoding for OTA or digital recordings. They're both digital data streams that are recorded directly to the hard drive. What type of encoding are you referring to?


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## socrplyr

mr.unnatural said:


> There shouldn't have to be any encoding for OTA or digital recordings. They're both digital data streams that are recorded directly to the hard drive. What type of encoding are you referring to?


Please read before posting... He is talking about why the device might have 1/3 less power consumption when the ANALOG tuning capability is removed.


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## SullyND

mr.unnatural said:


> There shouldn't have to be any encoding for OTA or digital recordings. They're both digital data streams that are recorded directly to the hard drive. What type of encoding are you referring to?


They're trying to get a waiver for _ANALOG_, not digital. *ANALOG* means there is encoding.


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## shwru980r

Eliminating analog tuners would shut out customers who choose to use Tivo with limited basic cable service.

When you have a limited number of channels, like with OTA or limited basic cable, you don't want to have to miss a program because of a scheduling conflict.


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## atmuscarella

TWinbrook46636 said:


> If you are OTA only why would you need 4 tuners though? There can't be that many conflicts on 20-30 OTA channels vs the hundreds you get with digital cable.


Well I am OTA only and have 3 HD TiVos attached to one TV. I could live with 4 tuners but like all the storage (I have 5.25TB total which is currently 75% full).

Thanks,


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## atmuscarella

MediaLivingRoom said:


> I want a trade-in program for $50 to transfer lifetime all Tivo Premiere to Premiere Elite and have the unit cost for $200!


Ya and I would like my apple tree to grow $100 bills. $250 wouldn't even TiVo's costs why do you think TiVo has any interest in making stuff for anyone at a loss?


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## ghuido

REading the PDF Filign it is the same as the Q only for Retail and probably bigger harddrive. I am wondering if they updated the encoding to MPEG4? 

I am def. interested. I have been holding out on the TIVO Premiere (All TIVO HD's at hte house right now). This might finally make me pull the trigger.


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## mr.unnatural

socrplyr said:


> Please read before posting... He is talking about why the device might have 1/3 less power consumption when the ANALOG tuning capability is removed.


Sorry. I didn't realize he was talking about the analog encoding.


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## petew

ghuido said:


> I am wondering if they updated the encoding to MPEG4?


I'd say it's 99.99% certain the Elite will record the Digital Stream exactly as transmitted. So for as long as the broadcasters transmit MPEG2 that's what the Tivo will record.


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## Welshdog

Do I understand this correctly: it would be an all digital machine that would not need a cable card? Seems like that would be a very good thing.


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## SullyND

Welshdog said:


> Do I understand this correctly: it would be an all digital machine that would not need a cable card?


No, it will still require a cablecard.


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## Ben_Jamin75

One of these in my living room and an extender in my bedroom is all I would really need.


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## nexus99

I think that 4 tuners is enough for my needs. If I could turn a Tivo 3 or a Tivo HD into a simple extender I would be happy.

I will eventually need to view TV in 4 rooms. I hope they are considering that kind of situation.

Also I hope they are considering what Sage TV technology could turnt he Google TV into. Time for Tivo to step up.


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## ghuido

Ben_Jamin75 said:


> One of these in my living room and an extender in my bedroom is all I would really need.


I'm thinking the same item as well. One TIVO Elite in the Media Room, a TIVO XL in the basement and extender in the bedroom.

Just wondering if they are changing up the hardware at all. Already droppoing the analog piece. Wondering if it would have other updated Chips in it. Much like TIVO Series 3 and TIVO HD are within the same X Series but the hardware is a little different.


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## lew

shwru980r said:


> Eliminating analog tuners would shut out customers who choose to use Tivo with limited basic cable service.
> 
> When you have a limited number of channels, like with OTA or limited basic cable, you don't want to have to miss a program because of a scheduling conflict.


An increasing number of cable systems are 100% digital. The issue is the lack of useable guide data for unencrypted digital channels.


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## jcthorne

Tivo has repeatedly said that use of the tivo with a cable system requires a cable card. No matter the subscription level. If you have a cable card, all digital channels have guide data. There is no issue other than folks wanting cable without a cable card. Not going to happen. Less so for the newer box that is mostly intended for cableco integration.

Tivo does not intend to support analog channels sent as part of lifeline cable...or any analog channels if they get the waiver.


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## ncbill

If Moxi can remap clear QAM with the proper guide info there's no excuse for Tivo not to do so.


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## atmuscarella

ncbill said:


> If Moxi can remap clear QAM with the proper guide info there's no excuse for Tivo not to do so.


This issue has been bit**** about and hashed over again and again and again for the last 4.5 years. Bottom line TiVo is not going to do it. If someone needs a DVR that works correctly with clear QAM without cable cards they should not buy a TiVo.


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## atmuscarella

jcthorne said:


> Tivo does not intend to support analog channels sent as part of lifeline cable...or any analog channels if they get the waiver.


This will only be true for the proposed 4 tuner TiVo. Part of TiVo's justification for obtaining the waiver was that the Premiere would still be available that does support analog channels.


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## modnar

Cool. Looking forward to hearing more about this (availability, hardware details, price).


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## ZeoTiVo

acvthree said:


> Am I reading this right? No OTA?


Yes and No.
the 4 tuner being delivered for cable company MSOs has no OTA

TiVo has presented a waiver request to FCC to be able to drop analog tuners and hardware in a retail box. Without the waiver, there is no quad tuner for retail.

therefor we do not know what specs a retail quad tuner would have yet, and TiVo is trying not to mix messages but *speaking only of MSO Quad* tuner and acknowledging the waiver they have with the FCC.

does anyone know what tuner chips are in the quad tuner for the MSOs? That would give us insight into what capabilities are possible.

Also - the Premiere retail box is STILL the main SKU for TiVo and would remain available for those needing analog


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## Saxion

jcthorne said:


> Guys, no where in the article does tivo say the proposed Premiere Elite does not have OTA tuners. Just no ANALOG tuners.


Unfortunately, the text of the FCC filing strongly implies there are no ATSC tuners on the Elite. For one, when describing legacy TiVos, the filing lumps analog and ATSC tuners together (referring to "analog/ATSC tuners") in contrast to "digital QAM tuners", implying that they are removing the former in favor of the latter. For another, the filing states that the Q and the Elite are nearly identical, and we know the Q lacks OTA capability entirely.


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## lew

jcthorne said:


> Tivo has repeatedly said that use of the tivo with a cable system requires a cable card. No matter the subscription level. If you have a cable card, all digital channels have guide data. There is no issue other than folks wanting cable without a cable card. Not going to happen. Less so for the newer box that is mostly intended for cableco integration.
> 
> Tivo does not intend to support analog channels sent as part of lifeline cable...or any analog channels if they get the waiver.


That was my point. People find it difficult, or impossible, to get cable cards if they're subscribing to a tier (basic) which doesn't have any encrypted stations. If available people on a basic package don't want to spend the extra money. I agree tivo is unlikely to change its position.



ncbill said:


> If Moxi can remap clear QAM with the proper guide info there's no excuse for Tivo not to do so.


Look at the long thread. Several cable systems change the QAM channel assignment regularly. Manual mapping isn't reliable. No upside to supporting an unreliable method when a reliable method is also available.


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## Philmatic

Yeah, it's pretty clear from the filing that TiVo dropped the NTSC tuners, the MPEG2 encoders AND THE ATSC tuners. The TiVo Elite will only come with 4 QAM tuners, and no analog cable, OTA analog, or OTA digital support.

Frankly, I'm surprised that it only saved them $100 in parts and 8 watts in power savings. I thought the MPEG2 encoder chips were the most costly parts (both financially and energy-wise) in the TP. This is a long time coming.

Comcast has been 97% digital for a while in their Xfinity markets. The only analog stations lefts are the OTA simulcasts on the basic tier, which are already being broadcasted in their native digital format on the higher tiers.


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## Ennui

Philmatic said:


> Yeah, it's pretty clear from the filing that TiVo dropped the NTSC tuners, the MPEG2 encoders AND THE ATSC tuners. The TiVo Elite will only come with 4 QAM tuners, and no analog cable, OTA analog, or OTA digital support.
> 
> .


One of the things I like very much about the existing TiVo's is the ability to simply enter the channel number to go to OTA from cable. I regularly watch (and record) OTA channels from LA. No switching necessary.


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## innocentfreak

Philmatic said:


> Frankly, I'm surprised that it only saved them $100 in parts and 8 watts in power savings. I thought the MPEG2 encoder chips were the most costly parts (both financially and energy-wise) in the TP. This is a long time coming.


They don't say they are saving $100 in parts, but more that it would save the consumer $100.



> Maintaining an analog tuning requirement for the TiVo Premier Elite would increase production costs and the price to the consumer by $80-100


It could mean the same thing and just a more effective way to convey the point to the FCC.


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## sbiller

Anyone have insight into the success rate of such waiver applications to the FCC?


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## [email protected]

If it is virtually identical to the Q, then the Elite would have MoCA and at least the potential for 2-way communications with the head-end and the elimination of the tuning adapter.


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## innocentfreak

[email protected] said:


> If it is virtually identical to the Q, then the Elite would have MoCA and at least the potential for 2-way communications with the head-end and the elimination of the tuning adapter.


The MoCa though is on a separate chip made by Entropic so it is something they could remove to save on costs.


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## mattack

SullyND said:


> No, it will still require a cablecard.


Especially since all cable company provided boxes require a cablecard too.


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## sbiller

[email protected] said:


> If it is virtually identical to the Q, then the Elite would have MoCA and at least the potential for 2-way communications with the head-end and the elimination of the tuning adapter.


Communication with the head-end would require a DAVIC Receiver/Transmitter and possilby a DOCSIS Set-top Gateway (DSG).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS_Set-top_Gateway

http://www.cablelabs.com/cablemodem/

Further, reverse transmitters are specifically prohibited by the FCC. 


> The FCC requirements for UDCPs prohibit the inclusion of reverse transmitters. Modern cable systems are now
> providing more and more programming through the use of a technology known as switched digital video (SDV).
> This enhanced service requires the use of direct communications through the cable plant to the headend using
> reverse transmitters and proprietary signaling of the cable systems. UDCPs built according to the applicable FCC
> rules are unable to access such services due to the prohibition on reverse transmitters within the product.
> A Tuning Resolver was developed as a way to enable access to SDV services on UDCP products. This TR provides
> the necessary reverse transmitter and private signaling necessary to communicate SDV tuning requests to the
> headend. It "resolves" the tuning information for every tune-request of UDCP and provides detailed information to
> the UDCP to enable access to these services.


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## innocentfreak

Thanks to the link on Dave Zatz's post.

If you want to leave a comment supporting TiVo's petition, you can leave a public comment on the FCC.Gov Site.
http://www.fcc.gov/document/media-bureau-seeks-comment-tivo-incs-petition-certain-cable-ready-requirements
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/proceeding/view?name=11-105


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## jcthorne

Philmatic said:


> Yeah, it's pretty clear from the filing that TiVo dropped the NTSC tuners, the MPEG2 encoders AND THE ATSC tuners. The TiVo Elite will only come with 4 QAM tuners, and no analog cable, OTA analog, or OTA digital support.
> 
> Frankly, I'm surprised that it only saved them $100 in parts and 8 watts in power savings. I thought the MPEG2 encoder chips were the most costly parts (both financially and energy-wise) in the TP. This is a long time coming.
> 
> Comcast has been 97% digital for a while in their Xfinity markets. The only analog stations lefts are the OTA simulcasts on the basic tier, which are already being broadcasted in their native digital format on the higher tiers.


That is not what I read in the filing at all. Read the FCC request for comment document. It specificly says Tivo is seeking a waiver for NTSC Analog reception. Nothing about a waiver for ATSC digital.

But, your understanding were true, you can bet the waiver is as good as dead. Dropping analog support MIGHT have been considered. Dropping OTA digital support will not get chance. Have no idea why they would do such a thing as most of the digital tuner chips already support both digital encoding methods. Dropping analog and its associated encoders I understand. Dropping ATSC digital does nothing for them and would make the product DOA anyway. The FCC will ensure it never gets approved. And I would agree with them. As the waiver request is currently worded asking for relief from the NTSC analog requirements only, I very much support Tivo getting the waiver.


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## morac

jcthorne said:


> Dropping ATSC digital does nothing for them and would make the product DOA anyway. The FCC will ensure it never gets approved. And I would agree with them. As the waiver request is currently worded asking for relief from the NTSC analog requirements only, I very much support Tivo getting the waiver.


TiVo doesn't need a waiver to sell this without ATSC tuners so I fail to see why it would be DOA. There's no requirement that cable boxes (or TVs for that matter) must be able to tune OTA signals. If TiVo doesn't want to include ATSC tuners, the FCC can't do anything about it, nor should they.


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## Saxion

jcthorne said:


> That is not what I read in the filing at all. Read the FCC request for comment document. It specificly says Tivo is seeking a waiver for NTSC Analog reception. Nothing about a waiver for ATSC digital.
> 
> But, your understanding were true, you can bet the waiver is as good as dead. Dropping analog support MIGHT have been considered. Dropping OTA digital support will not get chance. Have no idea why they would do such a thing as most of the digital tuner chips already support both digital encoding methods. Dropping analog and its associated encoders I understand. Dropping ATSC digital does nothing for them and would make the product DOA anyway. The FCC will ensure it never gets approved.


It's true that the waiver request is for NTSC analog tuners, but that's because there are specific FCC rules that require that they be included in all retail digital cable settop boxes. From the FCC filing:


> No retail market exists for these all-digital products because Sections 15.118(b) and 15.123(b)(1) of the Commission's rules require UDCPs to have tuners capable of tuning *analog cable* television channels


No FCC rule exists that would similarly require ATSC tuners in a cable settop box. So, effectively the FCC doesn't care one way or the other about ATSC tuners in the Elite. I happen to agree with you that ATSC tuners would make for a better TiVo product at minimal cost, but regardless, the FCC doesn't care and won't disapprove anything based on it.

Sadly, I don't see anything that would suggest ATSC tuners are included in the Elite, and several indications they are not.


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## Dan203

No analog is a deal breaker for me. We still get 60+ analog stations via my cable system, some of which are only available via analog and important such as FX, A&E and all the cable news networks.

Although I would be perfectly happy if my cable company decided to kill analog and make all the stations digital instead. (especially if they converted them to HD)

Dan


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## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> No analog is a deal breaker for me. We still get 60+ analog stations via my cable system, some of which are only available via analog and important such as FX, A&E and all the cable news networks.
> 
> Although I would be perfectly happy if my cable company decided to kill analog and make all the stations digital instead. (especially if they converted them to HD)
> 
> Dan


Which provider? Although my provider in Tampa Bay (Bright House Networks) still has the Analog channels from 1-199 I've basically de-selected them from the TiVo Channel List and watch the HD equivalents. I basically have gone digital-only by choice.


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## Dan203

Charter in Carson City, NV. We don't even have digital simulcast here for the lower channels. I know this because when I was having trouble with the signal strength of my cable recently I started getting analog artifacts such as ghosting and fuzz on my lower channel recordings.

Dan


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## [email protected]

innocentfreak said:


> The MoCa though is on a separate chip made by Entropic so it is something they could remove to save on costs.


The Broadcom BCM7025 supports both MoCA and DOCSIS.

http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cable/Cable-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7025


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## innocentfreak

[email protected] said:


> The Broadcom BCM7025 supports both MoCA and DOCSIS.
> 
> http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cable/Cable-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7025


Ok, but this is not the chip in the Q. There was some back and forth about it on zatznotfunny under the post about the Q at the Cable Show. Entropic confirmed they were supplying the MoCA chip for TiVo.

TiVo also previously said they would probably drop MoCA if they ever offered the 4 tuner box at retail. This is in the original announcement about development of what we now know is the Q/Elite and Preview.


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## ZeoTiVo

innocentfreak said:


> Thanks to the link on Dave Zatz's post.
> 
> If you want to leave a comment supporting TiVo's petition, you can leave a public comment on the FCC.Gov Site.
> http://www.fcc.gov/document/media-bureau-seeks-comment-tivo-incs-petition-certain-cable-ready-requirements
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/proceeding/view?name=11-105


I asked for the link and Dave provided it, but I have had trouble trying to leave a comment. Anyone have some idea how to leave one


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## [email protected]

innocentfreak said:


> ...TiVo also previously said they would probably drop MoCA if they ever offered the 4 tuner box at retail. This is in the original announcement about development of what we now know is the Q/Elite and Preview.


If MoCA is eliminated in the Elite, it may mean that there will not be a Preview for retail sales. Taking out MoCA would make Preview set up doubly complex. They would require Ethernet or Wireless in addition to COAX.



sbiller said:


> ...Further, reverse transmitters are specifically prohibited by the FCC.


But the Q is built for the cable companies, so it would not be prohibited from reverse transmission and two-way communications. (Either that or COMCAST's current STBs are highly illegal.)

If the Elite is the retail version of the Q, it may be sufficient to simply disable any DAVIC/DOCSIS (theoretically used by the Q) in the Elite. And have the potential to enable it if the rules change.

The Virgin TiVo does have DOCSIS and can get any on demand transmissions via IP so there is compatible-to-TiVo code available. But then the FCC has no say in what Virgin provides its customers in Britain, and that code was written for CISCO hardware and may not have been written in a high enough level language to be compiled and compatible to the Q/Elite hardware.


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## innocentfreak

ZeoTiVo said:


> I asked for the link and Dave provided it, but I have had trouble trying to leave a comment. Anyone have some idea how to leave one


You should be able to do it via my second link. Iirc you have to put it in a text file and upload the text file.

Yeah here is the link. It is the submit a filing link.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/upload/display?z=bqoyb


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## nrc

morac said:


> TiVo doesn't need a waiver to sell this without ATSC tuners so I fail to see why it would be DOA. There's no requirement that cable boxes (or TVs for that matter) must be able to tune OTA signals. If TiVo doesn't want to include ATSC tuners, the FCC can't do anything about it, nor should they.


Yes they do and yes the FCC can. The requirements for "Digital Cable Ready" include 


> "(6) In addition to the requirements of paragraphs (b)(1) through (5) of
> this section, a unidirectional digital cable television may not be
> labeled or marketed as digital cable ready or with other terminology as
> described in paragraph (b) of this section, unless it includes a DTV
> broadcast tuner as set forth in § 15.117(i) and employs at least one
> specified interface in accordance with the following schedule:"


I don't see anything in TiVo's request that asks for a waiver of that provision.

http://louise.hallikainen.org/FCC/FccRules/2009/15/123/


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## morac

nrc said:


> Yes they do and yes the FCC can. The requirements for "Digital Cable Ready" include


A TiVo is not a TV.


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## kturcotte

The Moxi doesn't have OTA tuners either. Nothing says they HAVE to have them. I *THINK* the only requirement for OTA tuners is when you call a product an HDTV (I won't SWEAR to it though).


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## nrc

morac said:


> A TiVo is not a TV.


Good catch. You're correct. I missed the distinction in that paragraph since everything else in that section referred to all digital cable ready equipment.

Given that, I see no requirement for an ATSC tuner. But also see nothing in TiVo's filing that leads me to assume that it won't have one. They say nothing about ATSC, but then they're not required to.


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## JimboG

Dan203 said:


> Charter in Carson City, NV. We don't even have digital simulcast here for the lower channels. I know this because when I was having trouble with the signal strength of my cable recently I started getting analog artifacts such as ghosting and fuzz on my lower channel recordings.
> 
> Dan


60 analog channels at 6 MHz apiece is 360 MHz, or just under half (48%) of the available spectrum on a typical 750 MHz cable plant.

That is an astounding amount of space to waste on ghosted, fuzzy SD channels!:down::down::down:


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## Dan203

JimboG said:


> 60 analog channels at 6 MHz apiece is 360 MHz, or just under half (48%) of the available spectrum on a typical 750 MHz cable plant.
> 
> That is an astounding amount of space to waste on ghosted, fuzzy SD channels!:down::down::down:


I just counted to be sure.... we have 54 analog channels. And for some reason they recently decided to switch to SDV rather then eliminate a few of those channels first. (from what I've read a single analog station takes as much bandwidth as 8 digital or 3 HD channels)

Dan


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## Philmatic

Dan203 said:


> I just counted to be sure.... we have 54 analog channels. And for some reason they recently decided to switch to SDV rather then eliminate a few of those channels first. (from what I've read a single analog station takes as much bandwidth as 8 digital or 3 HD channels)
> 
> Dan


Yeah, it seems Cable Companies are going one of two routes:


Keep analog and go the SDV route, and use the increase in bandwidth to offer more HD and DOCSIS 3.0
Eliminated analog entirely (Except for OTA) and use the increase in bandwidth to offer more HD and DOCSIS 3.0
Time Warner did the former, Comcast did the latter. It may have been painful, but Comcast's method was much much better from a technical perspective and sheds them of the analog legacy. SDV was a great idea in concept, but it is proving to be very finicky with TiVo's and is just not a sound technical option.


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## JimboG

Dan203 said:


> (from what I've read a single analog station takes as much bandwidth as 8 digital or 3 HD channels)


A 6 MHz block of spectrum is 2 HD MPEG-2 channels without additional compression or possibly 4 MPEG-4 channels. Seems like four (4) damn good looking HD channels would be a fair trade for one lousy, fuzzy, ghost-y analog version of the Home Shopping Channel.

Then again, we could totally screw over those infidels who purchase their own HD DVR from TiVo by rolling out SDV and making their user experience insufferable. That'll show 'em. It's not like they could switch to DirecTV or drop pay TV entirely, right?


----------



## mattack

Philmatic said:


> Yeah, it seems Cable Companies are going one of two routes:
> 
> 
> Keep analog and go the SDV route, and use the increase in bandwidth to offer more HD and DOCSIS 3.0
> Eliminated analog entirely (Except for OTA) and use the increase in bandwidth to offer more HD and DOCSIS 3.0
> Time Warner did the former, Comcast did the latter.


That's *mostly* true, but not 100% true, at least for Comcast for me. We get cable channels besides OTA still in analog. It is a VERY small #.. local cable access/community channels (ignored long ago), plus the other ones I care about are Discovery and once in a rare while CSPAN. I get up to # 33 in analog, and I think 33 is TBS.


----------



## sbiller

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/07/13/do-you-want-a-four-tuner-tivo-tell-the-fcc/

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db0623/DA-11-1102A1.pdf

So far everything has been pretty quiet related to TiVo's waiver request. 
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment_search/execute?proceeding=11-105


----------



## innocentfreak

No opposition though.


----------



## MichaelK

mattack said:


> That's *mostly* true, but not 100% true, at least for Comcast for me. We get cable channels besides OTA still in analog. It is a VERY small #.. local cable access/community channels (ignored long ago), plus the other ones I care about are Discovery and once in a rare while CSPAN. I get up to # 33 in analog, and I think 33 is TBS.


 Comcast seems to go in stages where they wipe out chunks of ananlog.

We had up to around 35 on analog too at one point then they went to all digital (even the high school channel got diverted). So I'd GUESS that eventually you would be all digital when they need the room.

I think we did it sooner because here in NJ FIOS is statewide so there is competition at each head end.


----------



## morac

MichaelK said:


> I think we did it sooner because here in NJ FIOS is statewide so there is competition at each head end.


FIOS is not statewide in NJ. The are plenty of areas where FIOS is still not available, like where I live. That's because Verizon cherry picked the towns it deployed in. I don't think my town will ever get FIOS.

Still because there are towns that have FIOS in my local Comcast system, I get the benefits of Comcast trying to please me even though there's no competition.


----------



## mattack

MichaelK said:


> Comcast seems to go in stages where they wipe out chunks of ananlog.
> 
> We had up to around 35 on analog too at one point then they went to all digital (even the high school channel got diverted). So I'd GUESS that eventually you would be all digital when they need the room.


Maybe you're right, but this is the *RESULT* of *AFTER* changes a few years ago. We used to get up into at least the 70s of analog.. Basically all the channels I cared about were available in analog. It was only after I knew the (cable) switch to digital was coming that I upgraded to s3 & Tivohd.


----------



## lpwcomp

jcthorne said:


> Guys, no where in the article does tivo say the proposed Premiere Elite does not have OTA tuners. Just no ANALOG tuners. The digital tuners likely have no difficulty with both ATSC and QAM signal decoding, in fact there are some cable operations that use ATSC.
> 
> Lack of analog tuners does not = no OTA, just digital OTA only which still covers 99% of all OTA programming.


From the article:

"Also, TiVo acknowledges the challenges I foresaw in terms of sales venue and marketing of a DVR that handles only digital cable:"

That and the immediately following paragraph from TiVo clearly indicate that it doesn't do OTA.


----------



## sbiller

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/07/26/last-chance-to-support-tivos-fcc-waiver-request/


----------



## sbiller

http://www.multichannel.com/article/471504-NCTA_Conditionally_Supports_TiVo_Analog_Tuner_Waiver_Request.php


----------



## Riverdome

Greeeeeeat. Tivo is finally talking about four tuners in a single box but without analog. Have to break down and see how often I'm watching channels 2-101, not sure if I can live without them or not.

Anyone with experience in such matters have any idea how long the FCC waiver process could/should take?


----------



## lpwcomp

Riverdome said:


> Greeeeeeat. Tivo is finally talking about four tuners in a single box but without analog. Have to break down and see how often I'm watching channels 2-101, not sure if I can live without them or not.


You still have 100 analog channels? Nothing beyond 22 here.


----------



## Riverdome

lpwcomp said:


> You still have 100 analog channels? Nothing beyond 22 here.


Yep, called and confirmed this morning after reading this thread. Buckeye Cable in NW Ohio & SE Michigan. If it weren't for the local sports channel (local minor leagues and prep) & CBC out of Windsor I would move to a national provider. I know a lot of the 100 analog channels have HD channels further up the dial but I need to check on the kids stuff like Nick.

Edit: It's actually 73 analog channels, no programming between 74-101.


----------



## MichaelK

morac said:


> FIOS is not statewide in NJ. The are plenty of areas where FIOS is still not available, like where I live. That's because Verizon cherry picked the towns it deployed in. I don't think my town will ever get FIOS.
> 
> Still because there are towns that have FIOS in my local Comcast system, I get the benefits of Comcast trying to please me even though there's no competition.


poor choice of words- statewide franchise with hundreds of towns having service would be more accurate. End game is I'd be shocked if there's not a FIOS town on every comcast, cablevision,tw, etc head end and so yes we all benefit.

I'm in exactly the same position you are- I live in flemington so we have crappy centurytel nee embarq nee sprint nee united telcom. So no fios in my town. But the headend is in hillsboro and hits a pile of high income towns in somerset county that verizon has fios. So I do have rocking comcast service.


----------



## mattack

Riverdome said:


> Greeeeeeat. Tivo is finally talking about four tuners in a single box but without analog. Have to break down and see how often I'm watching channels 2-101, not sure if I can live without them or not.


You do realize you will have DIGITAL versions of all of those channels, right?

and when you get a good signal (which should be essentially always(*)), it will look better than the analog signal ever did.

(*) I only say that, because MPEG artifacts bug the heck out of me more than analog artifacts.. and the minimum 2x space increase is slightly a pain. But I still realize that even on my old tube TV, the picture was generally FAR better than with analog. I still wish I had the _option_ to use the analog channels even with cablecard though (mostly for space savings).


----------



## MeStinkBAD

Where does it say you can't get OTA? I'm baffled by this idea since there is no mention of it but here. The idea is to distribute it via the cable companies. Of course the article is far from reliable. Not to say it's incorrect... but out of context? Yes.


----------



## RichB

MeStinkBAD said:


> Where does it say you can't get OTA? I'm baffled by this idea since there is no mention of it but here. The idea is to distribute it via the cable companies. Of course the article is far from reliable. Not to say it's incorrect... but out of context? Yes.


OTA = Over the Air.
The same channel from the cable company is not OTA.

- Rich


----------



## lpwcomp

MeStinkBAD said:


> Where does it say you can't get OTA? I'm baffled by this idea since there is no mention of it but here.


1. The article states that it "handles only digital cable".

2. This is a retail version of a cable STB which would have no need for ATSC tuners.

3. From the filing with the FCC: "TiVo also will train its high-end retailers (e.g., Magnolia) to ensure that customers have all-digital cable or digital simulcast service



> The idea is to distribute it via the cable companies.


 No, the idea is to be able to market it directly to consumers. They are already taking orders from cable companies but TiVo also wants to sell it through retail outlets.

You should really read the entire article including the excerpts from the FCC filing.


----------



## jcthorne

Still don't see where they say the new box will not support OTA digital signals. I understand thier need to get rid of the analog tuners, encoders etc, but the ATSC digital signals add no additional hardware, its the same 4 tuners. I think folks are reading too much into statements taken out of context. We will see when or if the product actually launches. But the box without OTA digital I do not think would pass the FCC.


----------



## lpwcomp

jcthorne said:


> ... but the ATSC digital signals add no additional hardware, its the same 4 tuners.


 Although similar, QAM tuners and ATSC tuners are not the same.


----------



## aaronwt

Has there ever been a STB from a cable company that had OTA tuners?

i would think that the cable company wants you to watch all your content from their cable system.. They wouldn't want you to watch the local station. They would want you to watch the local station through their cable system. That way you will be watching their advertising that can be inserted into the feed. Plus they want you to be dependent on them.

So even if the quad Tuner Premiere has built in ATSC tuners, when deployed through a cable company I would expect them to disable that input. But then if cable companies are your primary market for the device, why include the ATSC tuners in the first place?


----------



## MichaelK

jcthorne said:


> Still don't see where they say the new box will not support OTA digital signals. I understand thier need to get rid of the analog tuners, encoders etc, but the ATSC digital signals add no additional hardware, its the same 4 tuners. I think folks are reading too much into statements taken out of context. We will see when or if the product actually launches. But the box without OTA digital I do not think would pass the FCC.


I dont think the FCC cares if it has an OTA tuner. Where does it say a cable box has to have ATSC OTA tuners? You can buy a "monitor" without an ATSC Tuner also so there's nothing that says every device that might be for watching tv needs to pick up ATSC OTA broadcasts.

Even IF the tuners have both ATSC and QAM (could be one chip that does both)- it's not crazy that tivo would disable the ATSC parts if they thought it would keep things "simple". They've avoided asymmetrical tuner setups in the past.


----------



## lpwcomp

Even if the ATSC tuners are on the same chip, there is still one set of additional hardware required - a coax connector for an antenna.


----------



## petew

jcthorne said:


> But the box without OTA digital I do not think would pass the FCC.


TiVo released a version of the Series 2 DT without OTA Analog specifically to meet FCC requirements. At the time all boxes capable of recieving OTA signals were required to include an ATSC tuner so TiVO simply called the box a cable only device so no ATSC tuner was required. The Premier Elite would also be a cable only device.


----------



## HazelW

jcthorne said:


> But the box without OTA digital I do not think would pass the FCC.


Why not? Moxi makes a similar DVR that does not support OTA.


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## RichB

HazelW said:


> Why not? Moxi makes a similar DVR that does not support OTA.


Good point. They must have already got a waiver.

- Rich


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## MichaelK

RichB said:


> Good point. They must have already got a waiver.
> 
> - Rich


who says they even need a waiver?

Seems pretty clear from the conversation above that there's no requirement for a cablebox to have an atsc tuner.

If someone can point out a regulation that says one is required then please share, but i'm under the impression that no such thing exists and the moxi is just proof. HD Homeun makes tuner box options that do or dont contain ATSC tuners. Same with internal tuner cards for PC's. So why does anyone thing an ATSC tuner is required for a cable tuning device?

(nor is DBS required to include an ATSC tuner in their devices either)


----------



## petew

MichaelK said:


> who says they even need a waiver?


Agreed!



> From Dave Zatz's original posting:
> 
> "To bring retail consumers the Premiere Elite, however, TiVo requires a waiver of the Commissions Digital Cable Ready certification, marketing, and labeling rules (the DCR Rules).


There is no restriction on TiVo producing a cable only box as long as they don't claim it will recieve OTA signals. However to be able to claim it is Digital Cable Ready under current FCC rules they must include an Analog Tuner. Hence the request for a waiver.


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## innocentfreak

It looks like TiVo is aiming for Mid-October for the Elite according to their latest filing to the FCC.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016835812



> For example, in the high-end retailer outlets where TiVo will be focusing its retail marketing efforts, distributors are more discriminating regarding their stock, select products less frequently, and require far more lead time for point-of-sale materials and sales force training. In addition, the trade show for the custom installers to whom TiVo will be directing another substantial portion of its marketing efforts, known as the CEDIA show, begins on Septemb er 7,2011.17 Tivo's window of opportunity to stimulate demand from retailers and custom installers, therefore, is short and imminent. Given these factors, TiVo must be prepared to commence shipping the Premiere Elite and associated sales and training materials by no later than mid-September to place the Premiere Elite in retail outlets by mid-October. Otherwise, the Premiere Elite may be unavailable to consumers in time for the important holiday sales season.


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## sbiller

innocentfreak said:


> It looks like TiVo is aiming for Mid-October for the Elite according to their latest filing to the FCC.
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016835812


Also blogged about by Megazone here --> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/08/11/tivo-premiere-elite-to-ship-mid-september-on-shelves-mid-october-pending-fcc-waiver/

Still silent on the availability of the Preview. I will be an early adopter and purchase the Elite as soon as its available to replace my Series 3.


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## sbiller

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016836124


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## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> Also blogged about by Megazone here --> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/08/11/tivo-premiere-elite-to-ship-mid-september-on-shelves-mid-october-pending-fcc-waiver/
> 
> Still silent on the availability of the Preview. I will be an early adopter and purchase the Elite as soon as its available to replace my Series 3.


Ahh I must have missed his post.

Yeah I do plan to pick up an Elite pretty quickly. I am waiting for price though to see if it is a day one buy.


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## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016836124


Looks like no OTA



> It does not receive analog programming, including overthe-
> air, and will not work with an over-the-air antenna.


Does include MOCA



> Networks with other TiVo boxes for content sharing
> MoCA support (including MoCA bridge)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sbiller said:


> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=6016836124


Nice... the training materials indicate MoCA support. Glad that's staying in.


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## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Nice... the training materials indicate MoCA support. Glad that's staying in.


It appears the Elite and the Premiere Q are exactly the same box.


----------



## innocentfreak

sbiller said:


> It appears the Elite and the Premiere Q are exactly the same box.


Well except for the hard drive. Also with them stating it is aimed at the high end Home Theater market, I see a possible premium on the device.

It will really be interesting to see how this is priced.


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## sbiller

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-08/tivo-premiere-elite-detailed/


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## lrhorer

shwru980r said:


> Eliminating analog tuners would shut out customers who choose to use Tivo with limited basic cable service.


Not for long. Most MSOs will probably start shutting down their analog offerings next year.


----------



## lrhorer

ncbill said:


> If Moxi can remap clear QAM with the proper guide info there's no excuse for Tivo not to do so.


Yes, there is. Moxi should never have done this. It is to TiVo's credit they have not.


----------



## lrhorer

lew said:


> That was my point. People find it difficult, or impossible, to get cable cards if they're subscribing to a tier (basic) which doesn't have any encrypted stations. If available people on a basic package don't want to spend the extra money. I agree tivo is unlikely to change its position.


That should change with the FCC ruling that just went into effect, and especially as more and more CATV systems go all digital. Of course, it is yet to be seen if it actually does.



lew said:


> Look at the long thread. Several cable systems change the QAM channel assignment regularly. Manual mapping isn't reliable. No upside to supporting an unreliable method when a reliable method is also available.


More to the point, the intent is that every single device - ultimately even Satellite and U-verse products, employ the same decryption standards. There's still a way to go. The FCC was really boneheaded for allowing those companies exceptions a couple of decades ago.


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## lrhorer

Dan203 said:


> Charter in Carson City, NV. We don't even have digital simulcast here for the lower channels. I know this because when I was having trouble with the signal strength of my cable recently I started getting analog artifacts such as ghosting and fuzz on my lower channel recordings.


Yeah, we've talked about your CATV lineup before. 'Sounds like your CATV system is a few years behind the times. That really sux.


----------



## lrhorer

innocentfreak said:


> Well except for the hard drive. Also with them stating it is aimed at the high end Home Theater market, I see a possible premium on the device.
> 
> It will really be interesting to see how this is priced.


Color me not interested at any price.


----------



## lrhorer

aaronwt said:


> Has there ever been a STB from a cable company that had OTA tuners?


Analog, yes. Digital, not of which I know.



aaronwt said:


> i would think that the cable company wants you to watch all your content from their cable system.. They wouldn't want you to watch the local station. They would want you to watch the local station through their cable system. That way you will be watching their advertising that can be inserted into the feed. Plus they want you to be dependent on them.


It also ultimately could provide them with greater leverage on OTA pricing from the network affiliates.



aaronwt said:


> So even if the quad Tuner Premiere has built in ATSC tuners, when deployed through a cable company I would expect them to disable that input. But then if cable companies are your primary market for the device, why include the ATSC tuners in the first place?


Well, not all CATV companies carry all the OTA channels, especially low power channels. Some don't even carry all the big 5 national network channels.


----------



## aaronwt

I hope the Elite comes in at a decent price. I would love to be able to sell two of my Lifetime Premieres to cover most if not all of the cost of an Elite with Lifetime.


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> I hope the Elite comes in at a decent price. I would love to be able to sell two of my Lifetime Premieres to cover most if not all of the cost of an Elite with Lifetime.


I think they'll price it at $499 MSRP including the slide remote. I can't imagine the manufacturing costs are greater than that so they'll make a reasonable profit on each box.


----------



## nrc

sbiller said:


> I think they'll price it at $499 MSRP including the slide remote. I can't imagine the manufacturing costs are greater than that so they'll make a reasonable profit on each box.


$499 list would keep the price with lifetime under $1k which would seem wise. But that would only be a $200 premium over the Premiere XL which is itself a $200 premium over the Premiere. The extra $200 for an XL gets you another 100 hours, THX, and a glow remote. So I can't see them adding another 150 hours, two tuners and MOCA for just another $200. I suppose you could argue that it loses OTA in the process..

I'll guess that it comes in at $599 and then drops to $499 when the XL eventually drops to $199.


----------



## jcthorne

I think Tivo has now split up its already very small market to an even smaller segment. So small that I really feel the box is going to be an epic fail.

No OTA, No support and in fact resistance from cable operators. A high price. They will sell a few to limited number of very high end clients that are still tethered to catv but those numbers are shrinking. Tivo has abandoned its idea of 'one box' it was so proud of when it released the Premiere.

This also signals Tivo's intent to let the Premiere die on the vine. Never finished, never fully functional and no upgrade path. Suppose I really know how the DirectTV subscribers felt when they were dropped.

Tivo is climbing in to bed with a 1000lb gorillia that is not welcoming of a mouse in its bed. One more step to its end I am afraid.


----------



## innocentfreak

What resistance? This model was originally developed with companies like RCN and Suddenlink in mind which is why RCN has been testing one in their labs. 

When TiVo announced the Premiere, they framed it as a platform. This is just another model for the platform. It is just an Elite version of the Premiere running the same software.

Why do you think they are letting the Premiere die when this will be identical to the Premiere except for 4 vs 2 tuners and 2TB vs 320GB? It might have a newer broadcom chip just to deal with the overhead of the additional 2 streams, but still for all intent and purposes it is a Premiere.

They are aiming this at the CEDIA crowd not the mass market. This also isn't replacing the Premiere, and will only be carried in places like Magnolia Best Buys.


----------



## Riverdome

innocentfreak said:


> What resistance? This model was originally developed with companies like RCN and Suddenlink in mind which is why RCN has been testing one in their labs.
> 
> When TiVo announced the Premiere, they framed it as a platform. This is just another model for the platform. It is just an Elite version of the Premiere running the same software.
> 
> Why do you think they are letting the Premiere die when this will be identical to the Premiere except for 4 vs 2 tuners and 2TB vs 320GB? It might have a newer broadcom chip just to deal with the overhead of the additional 2 streams, but still for all intent and purposes it is a Premiere.
> 
> They are aiming this at the CEDIA crowd not the mass market. This also isn't replacing the Premiere, and will only be carried in places like Magnolia Best Buys.


Completely agree. This is a good box for those that can afford it. Early adopters will pay premium just like they did for the S3 ($800 + service.) I don't see any reason this box would arrive at less than that $800 figure. What I think could kill this box is if it doesn't find a way to stream across the home w/o buying multiple Elite boxes.


----------



## lpwcomp

innocentfreak said:


> Why do you think they are letting the Premiere die when this will be identical to the Premiere except for 4 vs 2 tuners and 2TB vs 320GB? It might have a newer broadcom chip just to deal with the overhead of the additional 2 streams, but still for all intent and purposes it is a Premiere.


While I disagree with the contention that the Premiere will be abandoned, the Elite is _*not*_ identical to the Premiere. It has no OTA capability and no analog tuners. The lack of analog tuners is why TiVo needs the FCC waiver in order to market it directly to consumers.


----------



## innocentfreak

lpwcomp said:


> While I disagree with the contention that the Premiere will be abandoned, the Elite is _*not*_ identical to the Premiere. It has no OTA capability and no analog tuners. The lack of analog tuners is why TiVo needs the FCC waiver in order to market it directly to consumers.


Correct, but that only requires going with a different tuner chip.


----------



## lpwcomp

innocentfreak said:


> Correct, but that only requires going with a different tuner chip.


And adding a coax connection. And changing the s/w.


----------



## innocentfreak

lpwcomp said:


> And adding a coax connection. And changing the s/w.


Huh? You don't need a second coax. You can run easily 4 streams over a single coax. The tuner chips is what determines how many streams can be viewed at once, not the coax inputs.

The software probably already supports multiple streams. The hardware is the limitation. If it required new software, I doubt they would be looking at a Mid-October release.


----------



## lpwcomp

It is not the number of streams. It is the fact that you have two different sources, cable and antenna. The Elite only has one input.


----------



## aaronwt

You would a coax input for OTA and one for cable. Just like the current Premiere is.


----------



## atmuscarella

I think I will stick my head out and predict a much lower price that everyone else. 

If it is not THX certified and doesn't come with a Premium remote it could actually cost less to build than a Premiere XL. 

So I am going to say - it gets to $299 or even $199 very fast (plus service). 

I don't remember any more but how much of a premium did TiVo charge when they went from a single tuner Series 2 to a dual tuner Series 2, I don't think it was that much, plus the dual tuner Series 2 also added built in networking (and also removed OTA even though the parts were still there).

From what I can see this new 4 tuner TiVo is going to provide nothing more than a Premiere does except 2 more tuners (in fact it actually provide less by removing OTA) - so I can not believe TiVo believes many people are going to replace working Premieres with it. 

To me it looks like away for Tivo to fight on features again - with a 4 tuner DVR while at the same time reducing manufacturing costs. Of course the other part of that is something that can stream from this DVR which we have not seen yet. 

Thanks,


----------



## Riverdome

If they needed to add a coax jack that isn't the same as developing a totally new platform that would leave Premiere to "*die on the vine*" as was suggested. No the hardware isn't exactly identical but so what. The differences don't seem to be significant enough to cause problems for future development or support.

The product has all the makings of being a winner and if the price is right I'm ready to retire my last S2.


----------



## Riverdome

atmuscarella said:


> I think I will stick my head out and predict a much lower price that everyone else.
> 
> If it is not THX certified and doesn't come with a Premium remote it could actually cost less to build than a Premiere XL.
> 
> So I am going to say - it gets to $299 or even $199 very fast (plus service).


I don't agree with you but for the sake of my pocket book I hope you are right. Just the fact that they are going to market it as a high-end product I think we're looking at $499 minimum. I can here the high-end customer now "How can it be the best if it's only $299? That's cheaper than any other component of my setup, I don't trust it." Crazy, yes but that's the mentality of some people.


----------



## atmuscarella

Riverdome said:


> The product has all the makings of being a winner and if the price is right I'm ready to retire my last S2.


Glad to see some optimist out there.

To me this looks like a 4 tuner Premiere stripped of analog cable and OTA. If that makes it work better than maybe they will have something. If it really just ends up being a 4 tuner Premiere I am sure some people will want it but many others will not touch it because of their experience with the Premiere.


----------



## atmuscarella

Riverdome said:


> I don't agree with you but for the sake of my pocket book I hope you are right. Just the fact that they are going to market it as a high-end product I think we're looking at $499 minimum. I can here the high-end customer now "How can it be the best if it's only $299? That's cheaper than any other component of my setup, I don't trust it." Crazy, yes but that's the mentality of some people.


Well at $299 it still costs $800 (or $700 with MSD) with lifetime service and which I wouldn't say is "cheap".


----------



## lpwcomp

A question that hasn't been addressed is: Will the Elite support content transfer(MRV and TiVoToGo) or is it aimed at the "Whole Home DVR" market where you have one DVR and stream content to other outlets?


----------



## Jonathan_S

lpwcomp said:


> It is not the number of streams. It is the fact that you have two different sources, cable and antenna. The Elite only has one input.


Ok, so that would be removing a coax connector*; not adding one like you originally posted.

* The apparently unsupported OTA antenna connector


----------



## lpwcomp

Jonathan_S said:


> Ok, so that would be removing a coax connector*; not adding one like you originally posted.
> 
> * The apparently unsupported OTA antenna connector


No, I'm saying that in order to make the Elite just like a Premiere with 4 tuners you have to add a coax connection in addition to changing the tuner chip and the s/w.

A lot of people seem to be losing sight of the fact that the Elite was initially developed as a cable STB to be marketed through and by cable operators. The request for FCC waiver is because TiVo has decided it also wants to market it to consumers through "high end" retailers.


----------



## Riverdome

atmuscarella said:


> Well at $299 it still costs $800 (or $700 with MSD) with lifetime service and which I wouldn't say is "cheap".


NOPE it isn't going to be "cheap", I think we can all agree on that. But then again it will be the best DVR on the market, it's going to hurt to be an early adopter.

And before anyone says it no I'm not wearing Tivo colored glasses, I'm sure the box won't be bug free. Given recent history that assumption would be foolish. But 4 tuners, 1 cable card, 3TB HDD, plus the Tivo interface and reliability - I'll take it. If it's faulty and reboots wildly I'm not interested but I've never had the experiences that some report.


----------



## trip1eX

$299.

Lack of OTA tuners and extra cable tuners cancel each other out.

2TB drives are down to 1TB drive prices of a year ago.

That leaves MoCA. Expensive adapters, but most of the tech for Moca is already in a Tivo I bet. And Let's not forget that the silicon inside the PRemiere is 1 1/2 years old. The same processing power should be cheaper today.

$500 is too much. I'd buy 2 Premieres instead.

...so I'm going to say $299.


----------



## atmuscarella

trip1eX said:


> $299.
> 
> Lack of OTA tuners and extra cable tuners cancel each other out.
> 
> 2TB drives are down to 1TB drive prices of a year ago.
> 
> That leaves MoCA. Expensive adapters, but most of the tech for Moca is already in a Tivo I bet. And Let's not forget that the silicon inside the PRemiere is 1 1/2 years old. The same processing power should be cheaper today.
> 
> $500 is too much. I'd buy 2 Premieres instead.
> 
> ...so I'm going to say $299.


That's the nuts of it. Unless this quad tuner can stream to something other than another TiVo DVR, if the cost gets too high people are better off just buying 2 Premieres. Now if they provide a low cost device that allows you to stream and effectively replace multiple DVRs then they maybe able to charge more. Guess only time will tell. Of course for those of us that are OTA it is non-starter.


----------



## Riverdome

OT: But thinking of my viewing habits if a whole house DVR could stream HD content to my bedroom I would be comfortable dropping the cable connection in that room. I always have plenty of content on the main DVR connected to my HDTV that I wouldn't miss not having "Live TV" in that room.

Huh, for me personally I would have to consider that when making my purchase of either an Elite or Premiere, assuming both end up streaming.


----------



## lpwcomp

I have been giving some thought to replacing my currently dead TiVo 2 but if I do, I would probably try to find a TiVo HD since:

I don't need 8 tuners

The 3 working TiVOs are in different locations.

I don't have the money for a lifetime subscription (both of my TiVo 2's have lifetime but that was done when I still had a job and money) and the monthly rate for a TiVo HD with MSD is lower than Premiere and the probable rate for the Elite.


----------



## lpwcomp

There is at least one disadvantage to replacing multiple DVRs with one - You are creating a situation where you have an additional single point of failure.


----------



## SullyND

Any chance the Elite means the end of the XL? (Perhaps the non-XL gets bumped to XL capacity without THX)


----------



## aaronwt

lpwcomp said:


> There is at least one disadvantage to replacing multiple DVRs with one - You are creating a situation where you have an additional single point of failure.


That is the only disadvantage I see, unless you need OTA.


----------



## aaronwt

atmuscarella said:


> That's the nuts of it. Unless this quad tuner can stream to something other than another TiVo DVR, if the cost gets too high people are better off just buying 2 Premieres. Now if they provide a low cost device that allows you to stream and effectively replace multiple DVRs then they maybe able to charge more. Guess only time will tell. Of course for those of us that are OTA it is non-starter.


Hopefully it's not too high. Two Premieres with lifetime would still be $1k, with the multi service discount. And then you would still need to upgrade the hard drive.

Two XL boxes would give you the same amount of storage as the Elite. Two of those with lifetime would be a whopping $1400. I hope they don't pirce it like that, but if it's aimed at the custom install crowd, it would still have THX certification,etc so they would probably try to a very high pirce.

If the price is over $600 I won't be getting it. At $600 with $400 for lifetime that would be $1K. Then if I could sell two of my Premieres for $900 total(If I'm lucky since I still have the extenced warranty) I could deal with only $100 out of pocket.

Then when the streaming only/cable card box comes out, I would sell another Premiere. And hopefully in the end I would come out ahead. And be left with one Elite, one XL, one Premiere and one streaming box.


----------



## innocentfreak

Yeah anything over $1000 with lifetime and I will stick to what I have.


----------



## steve614

According to the product overview*, the Elite is THX certified. Some of you are going to have to bump up your estimated costs.

* Found on Dave's website. Scroll through the pictures.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-08/tivo-premiere-elite-detailed/


----------



## innocentfreak

Even with THX it shouldn't be more than a $200 premium over the THX cerified XL.


----------



## JoeTaxpayer

atmuscarella said:


> I can not believe TiVo believes many people are going to replace working Premieres with it.


An additional TiVo costs me $6.50/mo outlet fee or $78/yr. Another $24 or so for power, so call it $100. 
For some, $100/yr is worth selling two old TiVos and buying the one 4 tuner.


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> Even with THX it shouldn't be more than a $200 premium over the THX cerified XL.


I wouldn't be surprised if it is priced at $800 which is what the S3 was when released. At $800 plus lifetime it would still cost $200 less than two XL boxes with lifetime.

I would be absolutely shocked if it was priced at $500, but I am hoping for $600 but I really don't expect it. But you never know. The fact that it's not aimed at the masses, and will be sold at Magnolias and custoim installers means it most likely going to be at the upper end of everyones predictions. Otherwise they would cannabilize the Premiere sales. I'm sure they would rather have someone buy 2 premieres each with lifetime than one Elite with Lifetime. UNless the cost actual cost of the Elite is very low and they can have a very high profit margin on it. THX certification alone adds some cost to it.


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if it is priced at $800 which is what the S3 was when released. At $800 plus lifetime it would still cost $200 less than two XL boxes with lifetime.


I can't see it being anywhere close to $800. Remember, not only does it not have OTA tuners, but it has no analog to digital components at all. If it did then it could record analog cable. Not having to include a2d components would add to cost savings in manufacturing. I think TiVo originally said it would add about $50 to $100 to the price in their original request for waiver filing.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if it is priced at $800 which is what the S3 was when released. At $800 plus lifetime it would still cost $200 less than two XL boxes with lifetime.
> 
> I would be absolutely shocked if it was priced at $500, but I am hoping for $600 but I really don't expect it. But you never know. The fact that it's not aimed at the masses, and will be sold at Magnolias and custoim installers means it most likely going to be at the upper end of everyones predictions. Otherwise they would cannabilize the Premiere sales. I'm sure they would rather have someone buy 2 premieres each with lifetime than one Elite with Lifetime. UNless the cost actual cost of the Elite is very low and they can have a very high profit margin on it. THX certification alone adds some cost to it.


Oh I definitely agree. I won't be surprised if it comes in at a price like that. I am ready for it and I think it is why I am not as excited about the unit as I would expect to be.

Anything over $1000 with lifetime and I won't even consider it.

$1000+ is more than I am willing to pay for the convenience of managing multiple season pass managers. It would be replacing my last TiVo HD and become my primary box. It just isn't worth it for me at that price.

At $1200 or so I would just add another Ceton InfiniTV4.


----------



## Johncv

lpwcomp said:


> A question that hasn't been addressed is: Will the Elite support content transfer(MRV and TiVoToGo) or is it aimed at the "Whole Home DVR" market where you have one DVR and stream content to other outlets?


NO. From what I can see from the little info there is, unless your cable provider offer a cable branded TiVo Elite or Q with a streamer there will be no MRV or transfer to an iPad. TiVo still has no work around for the CC1 byte. I could be wrong but that my take on this.

What we all need to do is pitch in and take out full page ad(s) and demand that local cable company offer a cable branded TiVos. Maybe someone with web experience can set up a web page where we can all send a letter to all the major cable provider requesting that they offer a cable branded TiVos. Any one up to it.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I'm gonna say $500 to start with, or at least $500 through an upgrade promotion like they had with the Premiere. Most of the hardware removals and additions are actually a wash... so while the perceived value is increased quite a bit (for cable users), actual costs are not really ballooning. But it will definitely be a profit-taker just like the XL is.

I would have said $600 if they didn't just increase service fees.


----------



## JoeTaxpayer

Johncv said:


> NO. From what I can see from the little info there is, unless your cable provider offer a cable branded TiVo Elite or Q with a streamer there will be no MRV or transfer to an iPad.


I'm missing something. Why would this model not have MRV capability? And togo function? That would be a deal killer for me.


----------



## mattack

lpwcomp said:


> There is at least one disadvantage to replacing multiple DVRs with one - You are creating a situation where you have an additional single point of failure.


Someone else thought it wouldn't have MRV, though if it does (I presume it would), I personally can now imagine trying to use Tivos essentially as a 'front end'.. MRV stuff to another drive as "backups" in case of failure (most stuff is not protected for me), and use the 4 tuner tivo as the main recording device.


----------



## aaronwt

I would hope they would not cripple it by eliminating MRV. Four tuners is not enough to recording everything I want to watch.


----------



## plazman30

shwru980r said:


> Eliminating analog tuners would shut out customers who choose to use Tivo with limited basic cable service.
> 
> When you have a limited number of channels, like with OTA or limited basic cable, you don't want to have to miss a program because of a scheduling conflict.


Most limited basic cable should be digital now. Digital uses a lot less bandwidth. Cable providers want ALL their channels digital, if possible.


----------



## vstone

My cable tech tells me that when he tries to replave a cable box with a new one without a clock, many say just put the one with the clock back. MSO's and Tivo have probably not researched how much folk may want this simple feature, deciding to remove it ti save a buck or two.


----------



## JoeTaxpayer

mattack said:


> I personally can now imagine trying to use Tivos essentially as a 'front end'.. MRV stuff to another drive as "backups" in case of failure (most stuff is not protected for me), and use the 4 tuner tivo as the main recording device.


My thought exactly. New 3TB drive was $110, easy to have shows auto-transfer right to the computer.

For some, the 4 tuner and a few stream-only boxes (or old uncarded TiVos) would be the perfect setup.


----------



## dianebrat

I'll throw my hat and budget into the ring. Despite some folks wanting insane low prices, I don't expect Tivo to do anything generous, I expect them to target higher end ala the S3 in 2006.

My prediction is $600, add MSD lifetime for existing users at $299, but I can see marketing droid wanting $699 for the unit and longshot getting away with it.

My budget? I'd spend $1000 for it with lifetime, but would prefer less.


----------



## innocentfreak

dianebrat said:


> I'll throw my hat and budget into the ring. Despite some folks wanting insane low prices, I don't expect Tivo to do anything generous, I expect them to target higher end ala the S3 in 2006.
> 
> My prediction is $600, add MSD lifetime for existing users at $299, but I can see marketing droid wanting $699 for the unit and longshot getting away with it.
> 
> My budget? I'd spend $1000 for it with lifetime, but would prefer less.


Being that lifetime is now $499 and $399 for MSD, I don't see them offering different lifetime per box.

At $600 you would still be under $1000 with MSD lifetime.


----------



## slowbiscuit

Hardware looks great on these but until they come in at $800 or less w/lifetime (eventually), I'm not biting.

Oh, and Tivo needs to finish their damn software and modernize the Netflix interface. Software is holding them back, but I'm not 100% sure they care about retail customers at this point.


----------



## dianebrat

innocentfreak said:


> Being that lifetime is now $499 and $399 for MSD, I don't see them offering different lifetime per box.
> 
> At $600 you would still be under $1000 with MSD lifetime.





slowbiscuit said:


> Hardware looks great on these but until they come in at $800 or less w/lifetime (eventually), I'm not biting.


I really don't see them being under $800 WITH lifetime, I'm betting under $999 combined. It's just like seeing folks in this thread wanting $500 with service, it'd be nice, but a lousy business move.

Tivo has to get a better handle on a business model, their pricing structure has been all over the map the past 5 years, I love 'em anyhow, and I know MY budget that i'll buy at.


----------



## morac

dianebrat said:


> I really don't see them being under $800 WITH lifetime, I'm betting under $999 combined. It's just like seeing folks in this thread wanting $500 with service, it'd be nice, but a lousy business move.


That depends on how much it cost to design and build the Elite and how much it costs to manufacturer. I wouldn't think design costs would be all that high, certainly not as high as designing an HD DVR from scratch (which likely explains the original S3's high price). I wouldn't think manufacturing costs would be that much more than the Premiere XL.

If, hypothetically, it costs TiVo $200 to build this thing and they price it at $800, then sure they'll make $600 a pop, but they'll barely sell any. If they price it closer to $400, then they'll only make $200 per unit, but they'll sell a lot more units.

Also I'll mention, even if TiVo markets this at $800, it will very likely sell for less at some online retailers. Since people like to mention the original S3 in this discussion, I'll state that I picked one up from Dell for $495 plus tax in December 2006, which was a few months after it came out. Granted it was a one day deal, but it shows that just because TiVo prices something a specific price doesn't mean that's what you'll pay for it.


----------



## lrhorer

JoeTaxpayer said:


> I'm missing something. Why would this model not have MRV capability? And togo function? That would be a deal killer for me.


The most likely reason, and the reason it is not available to a large fraction of users right now, is the CATV systems will kill it. If your CATV provider decides to set the CCI byte on everything but the locals to 0x01, then you are hosed, regardless of the hardware.


----------



## MikeAndrews

jcthorne said:


> Guys, no where in the article does tivo say the proposed Premiere Elite does not have OTA tuners. Just no ANALOG tuners. The digital tuners likely have no difficulty with both ATSC and QAM signal decoding, in fact there are some cable operations that use ATSC.
> 
> Lack of analog tuners does not = no OTA, just digital OTA only which still covers 99% of all OTA programming.


'zactly. Isn't 100% of OTA programming digital? I think most are missing that ANALOG means clear analog _cable_ channels and those are becoming rare birds anyway.

Being that the FCC prohibited TiVo from having analog OTA on the later series 2s (and TVs) this remaining analog mandate is a trip to Bizzarro World.


----------



## aaronwt

JoeTaxpayer said:


> My thought exactly. New 3TB drive was $110, easy to have shows auto-transfer right to the computer.
> 
> For some, the 4 tuner and a few stream-only boxes (or old uncarded TiVos) would be the perfect setup.


Where did you get a 3TB for $110? At that price it's a good buy with 2TB drives at $65 or $70.


----------



## nrc

morac said:


> If, hypothetically, it costs TiVo $200 to build this thing and they price it at $800, then sure they'll make $600 a pop, but they'll barely sell any. If they price it closer to $400, then they'll only make $200 per unit, but they'll sell a lot more units.


Selling a lot more units is only a positive for the company if it results in a net positive on the bottom line. Unless TiVo plans for special service pricing for four tuner models (and wouldn't that be popular around here ) they'll need to take into account that many of those four tuner sales will likely eliminate one MSD subscription.

I think that anything under $599 as a launch price is wishful thinking. I'd love to be wrong. $699 may be more realistic. I wouldn't be surprised to see $499 eventually, but not within six months after launch.

Also, I'm baffled at the discussion of eliminating MRV. Where did that come from? Maybe someone is confusing MRV with streaming. In either case, it's obvious that TiVo has both options in the works. Barring an epic product planning blunder that will be included. The only question is whether Elite model owners will have an option short of using additional full boat Premieres for other TVs.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> Where did you get a 3TB for $110? At that price it's a good buy with 2TB drives at $65 or $70.


The Hitachi 3TB retail kit has been around $100 off and on for a while.

http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3159342
http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3155372
http://slickdeals.net/permadeal/55882


----------



## innocentfreak

morac said:


> Also I'll mention, even if TiVo markets this at $800, it will very likely sell for less at some online retailers. Since people like to mention the original S3 in this discussion, I'll state that I picked one up from Dell for $495 plus tax in December 2006, which was a few months after it came out. Granted it was a one day deal, but it shows that just because TiVo prices something a specific price doesn't mean that's what you'll pay for it.


The difference here though is I don't think the Elite will be offered in as many online retailers because of the limited market without analog support.


----------



## atmuscarella

nrc said:


> ...they'll need to take into account that many of those four tuner sales will likely eliminate one MSD subscription. ...


Are you sure?

Without the ability to stream to something too replace 2 TiVos they would both need to be attached to the same TV. I have that situation but I am OTA and didn't think it was that common.

So the questions is, do most/many people with multiple HD TiVos have them attached to the same TV? or are they on multiple TVs?

Thanks,


----------



## innocentfreak

Sounds like a poll. I am the same here with two TiVos on one TV. I have been this way since the series 2 though.

For me it would just replace my TiVo HD which would get moved to a bedroom.


----------



## Bierboy

lpwcomp said:


> You still have 100 analog channels? Nothing beyond 22 here.


We still have analog channels up to 90-something here...of course, our cableco is Mediacrap...


----------



## lpwcomp

nrc said:


> Also, I'm baffled at the discussion of eliminating MRV. Where did that come from? Maybe someone is confusing MRV with streaming. In either case, it's obvious that TiVo has both options in the works. Barring an epic product planning blunder that will be included. The only question is whether Elite model owners will have an option short of using additional full boat Premieres for other TVs.


No one is assuming that it will not support MRV or TiVo-to-Go. It is just that, at this point, we don't know. Based on the fact that it was originally designed to be marketed by Cable operators and the announcement of the TiVo Preview, a non-DVR STB, the question is a perfectly reasonable one.


----------



## Johncv

JoeTaxpayer said:


> I'm missing something. Why would this model not have MRV capability? And togo function? That would be a deal killer for me.


Most of the current TiVos MRV are cripple because of the CC1 byte, which mostly make MRV and togo useless is my point. Unless TiVo can come up with some legal way around this it not going to happen. The way a legal transfers of shows from a TiVo is going to happen is if we can rent a cable branded TiVo from the cable provider. Which is what TiVo want everyone to do. Now TiVo may be holding back the streamer for the Elite in order to let the cable providers rent it to you and may (big may) be making an agreement with the cable providers that for a fee from you will turn the Elite into a functioning cable box with all cable services.


----------



## JoeTaxpayer

Johncv said:


> Most of the current TiVos MRV are cripple because of the CC1 byte, which mostly make MRV and togo useless is my point.


This is the bit prohibiting transfer right? 
I only get the cable channels, not premium (HBO, Showtime, etc) so it doesn't impact me, but I understand if you're wanting those channels, it's an issue.


----------



## Johncv

slowbiscuit said:


> Hardware looks great on these but until they come in at $800 or less w/lifetime (eventually), I'm not biting.
> 
> Oh, and Tivo needs to finish their damn software and modernize the Netflix interface. Software is holding them back, but I'm not 100% sure they care about retail customers at this point.


TiVo has no control over the Netflix interface, this is up to Netflix. All Tivo can do is ask nicely. If you dont like the Netflix interface on Tivo, compline to Netflix.


----------



## Johncv

JoeTaxpayer said:


> This is the bit prohibiting transfer right?
> I only get the cable channels, not premium (HBO, Showtime, etc) so it doesn't impact me, but I understand if you're wanting those channels, it's an issue.


Yes. The problem is that most if not all cable providers implement the CC1 byte on ALL channels except OTA channels. Even when a cable channel ask them not to implement the byte the cable providers do it anyway.


----------



## lpwcomp

Johncv said:


> Most of the current TiVos MRV are cripple because of the CC1 byte, which mostly make MRV and togo useless is my point.


Are you sure that "Most" is accurate? I've never had a problem transferring anything, even those recordings in which the info has the "restrictions" message.


----------



## morac

Johncv said:


> Yes. The problem is that most if not all cable providers implement the CC1 byte on ALL channels except OTA channels. Even when a cable channel ask them not to implement the byte the cable providers do it anyway.


That's not correct. As far as I'm aware, only one or two cable companies do that. The largest being Time Warner. Most actually don't. That includes Comcast, the largest cable company in the U.S., which only protects Premium channels. Verizon doesn't protect any channels.

That's not to say it isn't an issue since Time Warner covers a large area, but it's not everyone.


----------



## generaltso

Johncv said:


> Unless TiVo can come up with some legal way around this it not going to happen. The way a legal transfers of shows from a TiVo is going to happen is if we can rent a cable branded TiVo from the cable provider.


Or TiVo can just officially support streaming, which I have little doubt is coming. Although it's not officially supported yet, my boxes have no issue streaming copy protected content to each other.


----------



## generaltso

Johncv said:


> Yes. The problem is that most if not all cable providers implement the CC1 byte on ALL channels except OTA channels. Even when a cable channel ask them not to implement the byte the cable providers do it anyway.


Some of my channels are copy protected, so I have felt your pain. But "most if not all cable providers" is a huge exaggeration of the number of people affected.


----------



## dianebrat

Johncv said:


> Yes. The problem is that most if not all cable providers implement the CC1 byte on ALL channels except OTA channels. Even when a cable channel ask them not to implement the byte the cable providers do it anyway.





lpwcomp said:


> Are you sure that "Most" is accurate? I've never had a problem transferring anything, even those recordings in which the info has the "restrictions" message.





morac said:


> That's not correct. As far as I'm aware, only one or two cable companies do that. The largest being Time Warner. Most actually don't. That includes Comcast, the largest cable company in the U.S., which only protects Premium channels. Verizon doesn't protect any channels.
> 
> That's not to say it isn't an issue since Time Warner covers a large area, but it's not everyone.


Agreed, MOST is a gross overstatement.
TWC is by far the most aggressive in locking down, Frontier FiOS is a close second.

I've had Comcast which was just fine, and now Verizon FiOS which is a joy to work with, not a locked channel in the fleet with Verizon.


----------



## RichB

Johncv said:


> Most of the current TiVos MRV are cripple because of the CC1 byte, which mostly make MRV and togo useless is my point. Unless TiVo can come up with some legal way around this it not going to happen. The way a legal transfers of shows from a TiVo is going to happen is if we can rent a cable branded TiVo from the cable provider. Which is what TiVo want everyone to do. Now TiVo may be holding back the streamer for the Elite in order to let the cable providers rent it to you and may (big may) be making an agreement with the cable providers that for a fee from you will turn the Elite into a functioning cable box with all cable services.


The solution is to stream, then you do not make a copy.
It is the copying form TiVo to TiVo/PC that caused the problem.

Everyone else is streaming these days.

- Rich


----------



## Johncv

dianebrat said:


> Agreed, MOST is a gross overstatement.
> TWC is by far the most aggressive in locking down, Frontier FiOS is a close second.
> 
> I've had Comcast which was just fine, and now Verizon FiOS which is a joy to work with, not a locked channel in the fleet with Verizon.


From what I have been reading on this forum it sound like most. I stand corrected if this is not true. However, I am stuck with Cox in San Diego and all channels are lock except OTA.


----------



## aaronwt

generaltso said:


> Or TiVo can just officially support streaming, which I have little doubt is coming. Although it's not officially supported yet, my boxes have no issue streaming copy protected content to each other.


Your TiVos are still able to stream between each other?


----------



## JoeTaxpayer

Johncv said:


> Yes. The problem is that most if not all cable providers implement the CC1 byte on ALL channels except OTA channels. Even when a cable channel ask them not to implement the byte the cable providers do it anyway.


Sorry to here that, that would kill a big feature for me. My family copies to laptops and iPad all the time. I'd hate to lose this.


----------



## tootal2

I wanted to buy this and till i saw it does not do ota. How do they know it dont do ota?

If i had 4 ota tuners i could record jay leno, david letterman, nightline and hogans heroes all at the same time.


----------



## Johncv

Off Topic question, is there really a difference between the sound quality on a THX TiVo over a non-THX TiVo? Is the sound being upgraded to THX quality?


----------



## slowbiscuit

Johncv said:


> TiVo has no control over the Netflix interface, this is up to Netflix. All Tivo can do is ask nicely. If you don't like the Netflix interface on Tivo, compline to Netflix.


Um, no. I don't believe this for one minute. Proof?


----------



## steve614

Johncv said:


> Off Topic question, is there really a difference between the sound quality on a THX TiVo over a non-THX TiVo? Is the sound being upgraded to THX quality?


I don't have a THX Tivo to compare, but I'm going to say no.

The THX certification is just a benchmark test that determines whether the video and audio outputs meet THX standards.
I believe the ambient noise the machine makes is also measured to determine whether the device is quiet enough to go in a THX certified home theater room.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THX


----------



## morac

Johncv said:


> Off Topic question, is there really a difference between the sound quality on a THX TiVo over a non-THX TiVo? Is the sound being upgraded to THX quality?


If I recall correctly, someone from TiVo stated (back when the TiVo HD came out) that there was no difference in manufacturing between a THX certified TiVo like the Premiere XL and a non-certified one like the Premiere. The only difference is that TiVo pays THX to certifiy one device, but not the other. That's then used as a justification for pricing the THX certified device at a higher price.


----------



## retired_guy

innocentfreak said:


> Sounds like a poll. I am the same here with two TiVos on one TV. I have been this way since the series 2 though.
> 
> For me it would just replace my TiVo HD which would get moved to a bedroom.


I've got three TiVo's on my primary set. A Premiere XL, HD (660GB) and S3 (750 GB). I'm probably replacing two of my HDs (including a 1 TB HD in the bedroom) with the Elite assuming the price and features are reasonable. I figure I'll save around $850 over five years in energy costs (due to high California rates) and eliminating a cable card. And TiVo will come out fine since I'll give the two HDs to my kids, thus creating two new potentially good customers for TiVo.


----------



## RichB

I have 3 Premieres and two cable company boxes.

I will probably sell 1 Premier and replace the two TiVo boxes with the extender thingy's.

- Rich


----------



## MichaelK

On mrv- the powerpoint slides to the FCC specifically says "networks with other tivo boxes for content sharing"

Another slide shows an ipad on the "whole home solution" slide. But count be in the context of controls as controls are also listed.


----------



## generaltso

aaronwt said:


> Your TiVos are still able to stream between each other?


Yup. I've got 4 of them, and streaming is still working for all.


----------



## shwru980r

tootal2 said:


> I wanted to buy this and till i saw it does not do ota. How do they know it dont do ota?
> 
> If i had 4 ota tuners i could record jay leno, david letterman, nightline and hogans heroes all at the same time.


OTA doesn't have copy protection. Why not just buy a second Premiere or even a S3/HD? The only reason for the Elite is because the copy protection prevents sharing programs between multiple Tivos.


----------



## lrhorer

Johncv said:


> Yes. The problem is that most if not all cable providers implement the CC1 byte on ALL channels except OTA channels. Even when a cable channel ask them not to implement the byte the cable providers do it anyway.


No, not most, but a significant fraction of them. That fraction is growing. Most still have moderate or no CCI byte flags ordinary CATV channels. Many have protection on premium channels.


----------



## lrhorer

steve614 said:


> The THX certification is just a benchmark test that determines whether the video and audio outputs meet THX standards.


It's considerably more than that. An application for THX certification must begin during the preliminary design phase of the device, and requires coordination and approval from THX througout the entire development process.



steve614 said:


> I believe the ambient noise the machine makes is also measured to determine whether the device is quiet enough to go in a THX certified home theater room.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THX


A lot more than just noise is measured. There is an entire spectrum of audio and video tests including gain, linearity, spectral flatness, noise, distortion, etc. When complete, a THX certification guarantees that an off-the-shelf box bearing the certification will produce audio and video signals whose levels, noise, distortion, phase and color rendition fall within very narrow limits for a given input.


----------



## lrhorer

morac said:


> If I recall correctly, someone from TiVo stated (back when the TiVo HD came out) that there was no difference in manufacturing between a THX certified TiVo like the Premiere XL and a non-certified one like the Premiere. The only difference is that TiVo pays THX to certifiy one device, but not the other. That's then used as a justification for pricing the THX certified device at a higher price.


I don't believe anyone at TiVo has ever said that. A number of us techie types have speculated that to be the case, but I don't think any of us have any hard data to back it up. I would be mildly surprised if it is not true, however.


----------



## lrhorer

RichB said:


> The solution is to stream, then you do not make a copy.
> It is the copying form TiVo to TiVo/PC that caused the problem.
> 
> Everyone else is streaming these days.


Not anyone who wants to copy to a server, a laptop or other mobile device, or to DVD / Blu-ray disk.


----------



## MichaelK

shwru980r said:


> OTA doesn't have copy protection. Why not just buy a second Premiere or even a S3/HD? The only reason for the Elite is because the copy protection prevents sharing programs between multiple Tivos.


I could hardly care less about copy protection. I have comcast and I dont have premium channels so no flags for me.

To me the reason for 4 tuners is all about not having to actively manage my Todo list and season passes. I have a pair of s3's and an s2 so I have enough tuners but its a pita having to make sure I arrange my season passes differently on each box so the conflicts don't cancel out the same shows. Then heaven forbid I toss in a one time recording and have to perform calculus to be sure i miss nothing

They could figure out how to have the boxes work together instead- but rather than waiting for hell tto freeze I'll likely bite the bullet and just buy a 4tuner.


----------



## lrhorer

dianebrat said:


> Agreed, MOST is a gross overstatement.
> TWC is by far the most aggressive in locking down, Frontier FiOS is a close second.


So are Cox and others. Of course, for those of us unlucky enough to be served by one of the repressive ones, it doesn't matter a damn what everyone else has.



dianebrat said:


> I've had Comcast which was just fine, and now Verizon FiOS which is a joy to work with, not a locked channel in the fleet with Verizon.


I wouldn't say that too loudly. Verizon is liable to sell your system off to TWC or Frontier. Just ask Rich S Adams. That, or the MPAA might squeeze the right set of cajones at Verizon and convince them to lock everything down.


----------



## [email protected]

lrhorer said:


> No, not most, but a significant fraction of them. That fraction is growing. Most still have moderate or no CCI byte flags ordinary CATV channels. Many have protection on premium channels.


The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has a page explaining how to complain to the FCC about restrictive cable company practices & other ways to combat restrictions.

https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=OnScreenThanks&id=261


----------



## slowbiscuit

And a fat lot of good that will do you, unfortunately - I think plenty of folks have complained already about TWC's heavy-handedness, but have gotten nowhere with the FCC.


----------



## morac

slowbiscuit said:


> And a fat lot of good that will do you, unfortunately - I think plenty of folks have complained already about TWC's heavy-handedness, but have gotten nowhere with the FCC.


That's because TWC isn't violating any FCC regulations. The regulations allow encrypting all but OTA channels. So if you want to blame someone for TWC's ultra restrictions, blame the FCC for legalizing it.


----------



## MichaelK

morac said:


> That's because TWC isn't violating any FCC regulations. The regulations allow encrypting all but OTA channels. So if you want to blame someone for TWC's ultra restrictions, blame the FCC for legalizing it.


But one could dream that by registering a complaint the FCC realizes they are being played as fools and that TWC uses the flags as a weapon against tivo to subvert the entire 3rd party mandate (since tivo is the only significant 3rd party player in retail). And then the FCC puds realize that, they get off their rears and actually update their regulation to deal with it.

Myself, I'd assume we see pigs flying south each winter before that ever happens.


----------



## aaronwt

MichaelK said:


> I could hardly care less about copy protection. I have comcast and I dont have premium channels so no flags for me.
> 
> ...............


Comcast in my area restricts channels unevenly with Premium and non Premium affected. But then even the specific channels are uneven with some movies being restricted and some not. Which happens on HBO here.


----------



## petew

aaronwt said:


> Comcast in my area restricts channels unevenly with Premium and non Premium affected. But then even the specific channels are uneven with some movies being restricted and some not. Which happens on HBO here.


Sounds like Comcast are following the rules and only protecting shows when the copyright owner requests it. IMHO companies that have a blanket restriction are just lazy, its easier to restrict everything than turn the flag on and off.


----------



## MichaelK

aaronwt said:


> Comcast in my area restricts channels unevenly with Premium and non Premium affected. But then even the specific channels are uneven with some movies being restricted and some not. Which happens on HBO here.


i would see if you can't find out who to make a stink to aty the comcast mothership.

My system was a small provider (patriot media)- they protected a BUNCH - similarly unevenly as you describe (just about EVERYTHING that was digital at the time- but not quite all of it). Once comcast took over it was the same for some time. Then some people complained to comcast mothership and they made it rational- only the premium movie channels got locked up and nothing more.

Interested that you describe only some movies- THAT is the logical way the system should work. The transmission people can set their systems to just pass along any flags that the content provider sends. So Comcast/TWC/etc shouldn't even be involved. If HBO wants a movie tagged they should just send the tag for that movie and it will flow down hill to all the cable boxes. Or more likely if steven speilberg (sp?) wants a movie tagged he tells HBO to add the tag and it flows down hill. Maybe that's what's occurring? (probably wishful thinking... but can't imagine anyone sitting in your head end saying "oh yeah this is a good one, let me flag this one")


----------



## generaltso

I wonder if the Elite will support an eSATA drive. The current TP boxes can't use more that 2TB of total space (aside from Weaknees), so built in support for more than that would be interesting.


----------



## shwru980r

It would be nice if the Elite could support a Raid 1 disk configuration with the ability to monitor the status and report a disk failure.


----------



## slowbiscuit

LOL, dream on.


----------



## aaronwt

I've never even had a TiVo drive die on me.

The TiVos I owned in the early 2000's with DirectV are still going strong at a friends place.


----------



## wmcbrine

netringer said:


> 'zactly. Isn't 100% of OTA programming digital?


Not quite 100%. There are a few holdouts, in the "low power" category. I can just barely pick one up in my area with an old NTSC TV. Or at least, that was true the last time I checked... which, come to think of it, was last year. So maybe not.



> _Being that the FCC prohibited TiVo from having analog OTA on the later series 2s (and TVs)_


That's not accurate at all. The mandate was, if a device sold past a certain date tuned NTSC (analog) OTA, then it must _also_ tune ATSC (digital) OTA. TiVo had the Series 2, which only tuned analog (OTA and cable). They didn't want to put a digital tuner into it (they saved that for the Series 3). But they also didn't want to stop selling it altogether (yet). So they decided to evade the mandate by pretending that the Series 2 (from that point on) couldn't tune OTA at all, making it purely an analog cable device or external box controller. Of course it still _can_ tune OTA; they just won't give it guide data for OTA. Even, now, if you try to use it via a converter box, which is pretty messed up.


----------



## aaronwt

So no new info on the Elite?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Basically waiting on the FCC at this point. No ruling yet. If/When approved, we'll then most likely get pricing and launch info at CEDIA (Sept 7-10).

No parties objected to their request. In fact it was unanimously supported by the various groups that commented on it.

Now we're just waiting.


----------



## DocNo

aaronwt said:


> I've never even had a TiVo drive die on me. The TiVos I owned in the early 2000's with DirectV are still going strong at a friends place.


I guess I stink at picking hard drives for tivo's - I have a box full of dead drives from 'em. And were on the same power grid even...

Hmm, next time one of the computer shows are in town and there's a data destruction vendor with a shredder I'm taking my box of dead drives with me


----------



## MichaelK

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Basically waiting on the FCC at this point. No ruling yet. If/When approved, we'll then most likely get pricing and launch info at CEDIA (Sept 7-10).
> 
> No parties objected to their request. In fact it was unanimously supported by the various groups that commented on it.
> 
> Now we're just waiting.


sorry to be redundant but got a smidge busy at home and work with the hurricane but any updates- looks like this is still "the thread" to subscribe to about these boxes?

Is there anything beyond what's been mentioned in this thread going on?

thanks in advance


----------



## sbiller

MichaelK said:


> sorry to be redundant but got a smidge busy at home and work with the hurricane but any updates- looks like this is still "the thread" to subscribe to about these boxes?
> 
> Is there anything beyond what's been mentioned in this thread going on?
> 
> thanks in advance


Speculation is they are going to announce the Elite at the Cedia show on Sept 7th. http://www.cedia.net/expo/index2011.php Its unclear if they would actually make the announcement before receiving FCC clearance on the waiver request. I believe we should also see that waiver ruling any day now.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Fear that we may not get a ruling in time for CEDIA. Tivo might just show the Q version if they can't do an official Elite blowout... or maybe show the Elite but not give an official date/price yet. Ugh. Is there anybody here that's going?


----------



## MikeAndrews

DocNo said:


> ...Hmm, next time one of the computer shows are in town and there's a data destruction vendor with a shredder I'm taking my box of dead drives with me


You're concerned about some miscreant doing forensic recovery on your non-working former TiVo hard drives, breaking the encryption and seeing you had an old episode of "30 Rock?"


----------



## MichaelK

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Fear that we may not get a ruling in time for CEDIA. Tivo might just show the Q version if they can't do an official Elite blowout... or maybe show the Elite but not give an official date/price yet. Ugh. Is there anybody here that's going?


And yet again TiVo gets hosed by the fcc.

Everyone unanimously endorses TiVo's request and TiVo points out that time is of the essence. Still the FCC sits on its hands...


----------



## innocentfreak

MichaelK said:


> And yet again TiVo gets hosed by the fcc.
> 
> Everyone unanimously endorses TiVo's request and TiVo points out that time is of the essence. Still the FCC sits on its hands...


I think the FCC takes around 90 days so we probably won't see anything until 90 days from the filing. This of course doesn't mean there won't be anything out this week at cedia. It just probably won't be anything official.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Speaking of 90 days, their initial filing was June 7th. They couldn't cut it closer if they tried.  The FCC website can sometimes be slow to post, so there's a slim chance they ruled but we don't know about it yet. I guess we'll find out Wednesday based on what they announce (or don't announce).


----------



## MichaelK

innocentfreak said:


> I think the FCC takes around 90 days so we probably won't see anything until 90 days from the filing. This of course doesn't mean there won't be anything out this week at cedia. It just probably won't be anything official.


i'm not certain by any means but i believe there were specific rules for "hurrying up" decisions when new technologies might be damaged by waiting. I guess maybe the 4 tuner thing doesn't exactly fit the bill but i'd sure try to argue that.


----------



## innocentfreak

MichaelK said:


> i'm not certain by any means but i believe there were specific rules for "hurrying up" decisions when new technologies might be damaged by waiting. I guess maybe the 4 tuner thing doesn't exactly fit the bill but i'd sure try to argue that.


Yeah I don't know either. I believe in their original filing they mentioned a hurrying up time of 90 days and why they think they should qualify. I am at work though so I can't access the original filing to double check.


----------



## aaronwt

I certainly hope it does not get delayed. I will pick one up as soon as they are available from BestBuy. Assuming the sale of two of my Lifetime Premieres will cover 90% of the price of the Elite with Lifetime service. And hopefully I'll be able to use a coupon on it as well as some reward zone dollars.


----------



## innocentfreak

MichaelK said:


> i'm not certain by any means but i believe there were specific rules for "hurrying up" decisions when new technologies might be damaged by waiting. I guess maybe the 4 tuner thing doesn't exactly fit the bill but i'd sure try to argue that.


Looking at the filing they just mention 90 days so hopefully the FCC will approve the waiver tomorrow.



> Because a waiver also would help TiVo introduce new and improved services and equipment to consumers, the Commission also may grant this waiver within the expedited 9o-day timeframe required by Section 629(c) ofthe Act.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

The little birdies are saying it should be an informative day.


----------



## innocentfreak

As in midnight embargo?


----------



## morac

Looks like the embargo has been lifted. It's still not been FCC approved though.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/09/07/tivo-officially-announces-the-tivo-premiere-elite/


----------



## innocentfreak

Well it is official.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/07/tivo-premiere-elite-will-bring-quad-tuners-2tb-storage-to-retai/

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/09/07/tivo-officially-announces-the-tivo-premiere-elite/

I do think it is disappointing and a mistake not to include the Slide Remote in the Elite.

Thanks CoxInPHX....looks like $499...I am definitely grabbing one.


----------



## CoxInPHX

innocentfreak said:


> Well it is official.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/07/tivo-premiere-elite-will-bring-quad-tuners-2tb-storage-to-retai/
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/09/07/tivo-officially-announces-the-tivo-premiere-elite/
> 
> Of course no price, but this might be due to waiting for the FCC waiver.
> 
> I do think it is disappointing and a mistake not to include the Slide Remote in the Elite.


$499 plus Service
http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere-elite/


----------



## Philmatic

It's official!

*Features:*

4 tuners enable you to record up to 4 shows at once
2 terabytes of recording capacity provides up to 300 hours of HD programming
Easy access to broadband entertainment providers like Netflix, Pandora, Hulu Plus, BLOCKBUSTER®, Amazon and YouTube
Streams music and photos from any home network and the web
World's only THX® Certified DVR for optimal sound and video fidelity
Free TiVo App for iPad® and iPhone® provides a richer TV experience
Supports HDMI compliant splitters with up to 16 HDMI ports
MoCA® support (including MoCA bridge)

*Price:* $499 + service (Lifetime available for $499)

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/07/tivo-premiere-elite-will-bring-quad-tuners-2tb-storage-to-retai/
http://www.tivo.com/elite


----------



## morac

Wow $1000 for a life time Elite. That's way overpriced if you ask me.

Of course a number of people were expecting it to be $800 for the Elite alone, so I guess for them it's under priced.


----------



## innocentfreak

morac said:


> Wow $1000 for a life time Elite. That's way overpriced if you ask me.
> 
> Of course a number of people were expecting it to be $800 for the Elite alone, so I guess for them it's under priced.


I disagree.

Look at it this way..
2 Premiere XLs + lifetime
$299 + $299 + $499 + $399 = $1500 + 2 CableCARDS

TiVo Elite
$499 + $499 = $1000 and one CableCARD. 
$99 + $399 = $1500 for a two room 6 tuner setup. Second CableCARD optional.

Had this been an option at the launch of the Premiere I would have gone 1 Elite and 1 XL rather than just 2 XLs.


----------



## CoxInPHX

http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere-elite/premiere-elite-networking.html#tab

Your TiVo Premiere Elite requires a network connection to:

* Connect to the TiVo service to get you daily channel guide updates
* Connect with the TiVo App for iPhone or iPad
* Connect to on-line video content providers such as Netflix, Pandora and YouTube
* Connect to another TiVo DVR in your home to share shows between DVRs.

Typically a wireless or wired Ethernet connection to your home router is sufficient for items 1-3. *However if you have, or plan to have, another TiVo Premiere DVR in your home, and you want to stream programs between them*, we recommend a WIRED network connection.

So I wonder when TiVo will Officially announce streaming on the current Premiere?


----------



## smark

The question is if the $499 is the unsubsidized price in which one could just swap a HD out for it and keep their 12.95/6.95 plan.


----------



## CoxInPHX

I don't see the advantage to a single 4-Tuner TiVo vs two 2-Tuner TiVos once streaming is supported. The only way I could understand it, is if the Preview is priced at $99 and would not require a service subscription.

For me 2 Premieres, 2 Rooms, again, once streaming is supported for copy protected content.

2 x $59 (J&R special) Premieres = $118
1 x 2TB Upgrade = $89
1st Lifetime = $499
MSD Lifetime = $399
Total = $1105 (plus 2 x $2/mo CableCARDs)


----------



## doormat

The price seems about right, but still having to pay $20/mo seems like a bit much. But then again TiVo needs all the money they can get so I don't blame them considering the market this is addressing. 

I just want more info on the TiVo Preview units. I don't want DVRs at each TV, I just want one master DVR with everything and client boxes at each TV. With 3 TVs, paying for 3 DVRs would be ridiculous. I don't even watch that much TV!


----------



## kturcotte

No OTA, not interested. Going to be dropping cable soon and going OTA and streaming only. Hopefully the Series 5 (If we ever see one) will have 4 cable tuners AND 4 OTA tuners!!!


----------



## innocentfreak

CoxInPHX said:


> I don't see the advantage to a single 4-Tuner TiVo vs two 2-Tuner TiVos once streaming is supported. The only way I could understand it, is if the Preview is priced at $99 and would not require a service subscription.
> 
> For me 2 Premieres, 2 Rooms, again, once streaming is supported for copy protected content.
> 
> 2 x $59 (J&R special) Premieres = $118
> 1 x 2TB Upgrade = $89
> 1st Lifetime = $499
> MSD Lifetime = $399
> Total = $1105 (plus 2 x $2/mo CableCARDs)


Obviously personal comparisons are different.

I was just trying to compare it at it MSRP to MSRP price point and also comparing their current offerings that are equal in specs.

For me it will be most likely replacing my TiVo HD, though once streaming goes live I may move one of my XLs into the guest bedroom since the Premiere offers so much more in the way of remote management.


----------



## jfh3

CoxInPHX said:


> I don't see the advantage to a single 4-Tuner TiVo vs two 2-Tuner TiVos once streaming is supported. The only way I could understand it, is if the Preview is priced at $99 and would not require a service subscription.
> 
> For me 2 Premieres, 2 Rooms, again, once streaming is supported for copy protected content.
> 
> 2 x $59 (J&R special) Premieres = $118
> 1 x 2TB Upgrade = $89
> 1st Lifetime = $499
> MSD Lifetime = $399
> Total = $1105 (plus 2 x $2/mo CableCARDs)


The primary advantage to the Elite is the software support for recording (and conflict management) for 4 programs at once. With your setup, you have the same number of tuners, but each can only manage 2 shows at once.

If TiVo supported cooperative scheduling, it wouldn't be a big deal.

However, when comparing an Elite to two regular Premieres, you also have to consider single point of failure.


----------



## CoxInPHX

jfh3 said:


> The primary advantage to the Elite is the software support for recording (and conflict management) for 4 programs at once. With your setup, you have the same number of tuners, but each can only manage 2 shows at once.
> 
> If TiVo supported cooperative scheduling, it wouldn't be a big deal.
> 
> However, when comparing an Elite to two regular Premieres, you also have to consider single point of failure.


True, I didn't take recording conflict management into consideration.

TiVo should have released info and pricing on the Preview at the same time, as this would be a determining factor for many, I would think.


----------



## sbiller

innocentfreak said:


> I do think it is disappointing and a mistake not to include the Slide Remote in the Elite.
> 
> Thanks CoxInPHX....looks like $499...I am definitely grabbing one.


Do you think they didn't include the Slide Remote because of cost considerations OR because of the requirement to plug-in a bluetooth dongle which complicates the setup and may not work for all home theater setups? I'm guessing the latter.

I'm definitely grabbing one at release. Now I need to decide on my 2nd box upgrade for my bedroom. I wonder when they will announce Preview availability to retail.


----------



## CoxInPHX

CoxInPHX said:


> $499 plus Service
> http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere-elite/


Off Topic:
Why are my links getting redirected to Commission Junction, Inc
www.cj.com/expired.jsp

Is this happening to anyone else? No other forums I visit redirect to that?


----------



## E94Allen

Yep it happened to me too I think it's bad link or something else going on with TiVo or tivo.com maybe both?


----------



## SullyND

E94Allen said:


> Yep it happened to me too I think it's bad link or something else going on with TiVo or tivo.com maybe both?


It's probably a TCF thing, it appears that they use Commission Junction (What's their function?) to get credit through the TiVo Affiliate Program, but according to Megazone it looks like TiVo discontinued that program in August.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/07/20/tivo-ending-affiliate-program/


----------



## sbiller

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-09/tivo-premiere-elite/


----------



## franzey

Great! I JUST bought a Premiere XL last week after an hour conversation with a rep that told me there would be no new devices this year. Unbelievable.


----------



## socrplyr

franzey said:


> Great! I JUST bought a Premiere XL last week after an hour conversation with a rep that told me there would be no new devices this year. Unbelievable.


You have 30 days to return...


----------



## franzey

socrplyr said:


> You have 30 days to return...


But I have no idea when it will actually come out. If I had a date, I will return it today. Not sure I want to go back to my TivoHD from the Premiere for too long.


----------



## generaltso

The datasheet says that it will support increased storage via supported eSATA drives. I guess that means that the 2TB barrier will be broken (weaknees aside). Shouldn't be too long before somebody reverse engineers it so that we can add bigger drives DIY.


----------



## innocentfreak

franzey said:


> But I have no idea when it will actually come out. If I had a date, I will return it today. Not sure I want to go back to my TivoHD from the Premiere for too long.


TiVo in their original filing stated they wanted to be shipping mid-October so it should be soon. I figure it will be about 30-45 days from when the waiver is approved.



sbiller said:


> Do you think they didn't include the Slide Remote because of cost considerations OR because of the requirement to plug-in a bluetooth dongle which complicates the setup and may not work for all home theater setups? I'm guessing the latter.
> 
> I'm definitely grabbing one at release. Now I need to decide on my 2nd box upgrade for my bedroom. I wonder when they will announce Preview availability to retail.


I think it is just a profit consideration. Sure you can buy the Slide for only $59, but the Glo only goes for $20 now so I think they want to make as much profit as they can while keeping the cost of the box as low as they can.


----------



## aaronwt

CoxInPHX said:


> $499 plus Service
> http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere-elite/




Sweet!! i will definitely be getting one. I would think the sale of two lifetie Premieres should cover 100%(or very close to 100% with MSD pricing) of the cost.
Now hopefully the FCC doesn't screw us.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Ahh, good deal... Tivo went for it and announced the product sans date. At least it's out in the open now. I'll likely be in on this early. Hopefully there's an upgrade deal.


----------



## lpwcomp

While MRV capability is explicitly mentioned, there is a noticeable lack of TTG support, either explicitly or implicitly.


----------



## socrplyr

lpwcomp said:


> While MRV capability is explicitly mentioned, there is a noticeable lack of TTG support, either explicitly or implicitly.


It is there. Look at the compare page. It states:
"When you have more than one TiVo box connected to your home network through broadband, you can easily transfer non-copy protected HD shows between them. Simply connect all of your TiVo boxes to your home network and you can enjoy the convenience of multi-room viewing."
It also states:
"Who says you can't take it with you? Transfer your recorded shows to your laptop and hit the road. Or use TiVo Desktop Plus to convert your shows and load them onto your iPod®, PSP® or other media player. TiVo Desktop Plus is available for purchase and download on tivo.com."


----------



## lpwcomp

socrplyr said:


> It is there. Look at the compare page. It states:
> "When you have more than one TiVo box connected to your home network through broadband, you can easily transfer non-copy protected HD shows between them. Simply connect all of your TiVo boxes to your home network and you can enjoy the convenience of multi-room viewing."
> It also states:
> "Who says you can't take it with you? Transfer your recorded shows to your laptop and hit the road. Or use TiVo Desktop Plus to convert your shows and load them onto your iPod®, PSP® or other media player. TiVo Desktop Plus is available for purchase and download on tivo.com."


I saw the first part, which is why I said that MRV was mentioned. I did miss the second part. However, there is nothing about being able to access video that is on your computer from a TiVo Premiere. I know you can currently do it on a TP or TPXL but will you be able to do it on a TPE? And will this capability be disabled at some point? I'm not assuming that it will be, it's just that the lack of information is...disturbing. Probably I'm just being paranoid and TiVo has just decided they don't want to advertise a feature that some content providers find...disturbing.


----------



## socrplyr

lpwcomp said:


> I saw the first part, which is why I said that MRV was mentioned. I did miss the second part. However, there is nothing about being able to access video that is on your computer from a TiVo Premiere. I know you can currently do it on a TP or TPXL but will you be able to do it on a TPE? And will this capability be disabled at some point? I'm not assuming that it will be, it's just that the lack of information is...disturbing. Probably I'm just being paranoid and TiVo has just decided they don't want to advertise a feature that some content providers find...disturbing.


On the take it with you one, it says "Laptop." I would think that a laptop is a computer.  Also, that is half the functionality of Tivo Desktop Plus, which is also mentioned.


----------



## petew

kturcotte said:


> Hopefully the Series 5 (If we ever see one) will have 4 cable tuners AND 4 OTA tuners!!!


Don't hold your breath. Unless TiVo can source a dual purpose QAM/ASTC tuner I don't expect to ever see quad OTA device.

Also I'd expect that the demand/need for a quad tuner with OTA is much less since the scheduling conflicts with only 4-6 channels to choose from is much less.


----------



## lpwcomp

socrplyr said:


> On the take it with you one, it says "Laptop." I would think that a laptop is a computer.  Also, that is half the functionality of Tivo Desktop Plus, which is also mentioned.


You keep missing my point. Yes, there is explicit mention of the TTG capability of TiVo Desktop, which I acknowledged I initially missed. There is also information about being able to access photos and music on your computer from your TiVo but NOTHING about being able to access video that resides on your computer from your TiVo. IOW, it says you can copy non-copy protected video from your Tivo to your computer or between TiVos on the same network but it doesn't say that you can copy or even stream video from your computer to your TiVo.


----------



## aaronwt

petew said:


> Don't hold your breath. Unless TiVo can source a dual purpose QAM/ASTC tuner I don't expect to ever see quad OTA device.
> 
> Also I'd expect that the demand/need for a quad tuner with OTA is much less since the scheduling conflicts with only 4-6 channels to choose from is much less.


When you count sub channels we have over forty to choose from around here for OTA.


----------



## jmpage2

We lost any analog channel capability from Comcast about a year ago, so the lack of an analog tuner is no issue to me whatsoever. 

I would love to get one of these and put a couple of the Preview boxes for watching in other rooms. Handling four tuners and conflict management in a single box is a big deal to me as currently I have to juggle schedules on my two different TiVo HD units, not to mention that multi-room viewing is kind of slow and painful.

However, if TiVo requires a subscription for the Preview (which seems likely) then it's a non starter for me. Also, if Comcast and TiVo don't get VOD working that is a big deal to me too.

To put it another way, every time TiVo announces something neat, they find a way to screw it up and sap all enthusiasm from the offer.


----------



## daveak

It seems like a great box, but as an OTA person it is currently a non-starter for me. I would consider it otherwise, seriously consider it. With the sub-channels, we have 17 channels to choose from - though conflicts do not happen often (during football season mostly). I really like being at 4 tuners and 2Tb right out of the box, and with the ability to stream to the preview (or other extenders maybe? someday??) and 4 tuner conflict management - just great. Me like.


----------



## brettatk

daveak said:


> It seems like a great box, but as an OTA person it is currently a non-starter for me. I would consider it otherwise, seriously consider it. With the sub-channels, we have 17 channels to choose from - though conflicts do not happen often (during football season mostly). I really like being at 4 tuners and 2Tb right out of the box, and with the ability to stream to the preview (or other extenders maybe? someday??) and 4 tuner conflict management - just great. Me like.


I agree, being on OTA this would be overkill. It sounds like a really good box though. The reason I am OTA is because of Charter. I'll never give them another penny of my money so it looks like I'll be passing on this and any other box Tivo comes out with.


----------



## aaronwt

Was there also info released today on the Preview boxes?

or is the Preview going to be strictly for cable operators?


----------



## Joe3

No OTA for the the digital sub-channels would be a problem in my area. 

Of course, giving recent TiVo roll-out history, I would wait to see if it works first. 

If some here wouldn't jump in sight unseen maybe TiVo would be force to launch a product that works as advertised from the get go.

Here's hoping~


----------



## seattlewendell

I can't believe this is what Tivo has been working on.....


----------



## MichaelK

jfh3 said:


> The primary advantage to the Elite is the software support for recording (and conflict management) for 4 programs at once. With your setup, you have the same number of tuners, but each can only manage 2 shows at once.
> 
> If TiVo supported cooperative scheduling, it wouldn't be a big deal.
> ....


that about sums it up


----------



## jfh3

Don't forget that if/when Tivo gets the FCC waiver, CableLabs has to certify the box, so mid-October might be optimistic. (Anyone know how long the CL certification process takes?)


----------



## innocentfreak

jfh3 said:


> Don't forget that if/when Tivo gets the FCC waiver, CableLabs has to certify the box, so mid-October might be optimistic. (Anyone know how long the CL certification process takes?)


It might already be certified. The Q probably is since RCN was looking for beta testers. Other than the hard drive they are probably the same hardware so I believe no other certification needed.


----------



## mattack

petew said:


> Also I'd expect that the demand/need for a quad tuner with OTA is much less since the scheduling conflicts with only 4-6 channels to choose from is much less.


I disagree, since it's the *broadcast* channels that have the most conflicts, since their shows aren't rerun as much. Even many basic cable channels rerun their shows during the week (e.g. Mythbusters.)


----------



## Series3Sub

Also, there are a fair number of decent mulch-plexed channels on ATSC OTA. I have needed more than two tuners for OTA on several occasions.


----------



## nrc

jfh3 said:


> Don't forget that if/when Tivo gets the FCC waiver, CableLabs has to certify the box, so mid-October might be optimistic. (Anyone know how long the CL certification process takes?)


Once a manufacturer has a device certified by Cable Labs there is a process for "self verifying" new devices.


----------



## jfh3

nrc said:


> Once a manufacturer has a device certified by Cable Labs there is a process for "self verifying" new devices.


Cool. Thanks for the info.


----------



## qz3fwd

jfh3 said:


> Cool. Thanks for the info.


And Tivo has already self-certified 5 products.


----------



## doormat

qz3fwd said:


> And Tivo has already self-certified 5 products.


That explains a lot!


----------



## Troy J B

as posted in the Q thread FCC's Media Bureau Grants TiVo's Waiver Request

The waiver for the Elite came thru on Wednesday.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Oh, cool! Thanks for the link. Happy dance.


----------



## aaronwt

Troy J B said:


> as posted in the Q thread FCC's Media Bureau Grants TiVo's Waiver Request
> 
> The waiver for the Elite came thru on Wednesday.


Sweet!! Hopefully we will see the Elite before the end of October.


----------



## tunarollz

Troy J B said:


> as posted in the Q thread FCC's Media Bureau Grants TiVo's Waiver Request
> 
> The waiver for the Elite came thru on Wednesday.


:up:


----------



## leiff

Will this be able to take over the role of my popbox movie player for my 1080p mkv's stored on my PC? I don't think the current premiers do this do they? I'm still using a S3.


----------



## generaltso

leiff said:


> Will this be able to take over the role of my popbox movie player for my 1080p mkv's stored on my PC? I don't think the current premiers do this do they? I'm still using a S3.


Sure. I do it with pyTiVo. It works on an S3 too, but you'll get 1080i instead of 1080p.


----------



## deaddeeds

Still no clock, no OTA and if you don't have FiOS you would still need a TA. I own two Premiers and one S3 so I already have six tuners, no need for a quad tuner TiVo. Oh well once again TiVo leaves me disappointed. Where is the innovation?


----------



## generaltso

deaddeeds said:


> if you don't have FiOS you would still need a TA.


Why do you say that? I don't have FiOS, and I don't need a TA.


----------



## aaronwt

deaddeeds said:


> Still no clock, no OTA and if you don't have FiOS you would still need a TA. I own two Premiers and one S3 so I already have six tuners, no need for a quad tuner TiVo. Oh well once again TiVo leaves me disappointed. Where is the innovation?


there are no tuning adapters needed with Comcast in this area.

Also what kind of innovation do you expect? Devices already stream, playback local media, and record Tv programming. And one box will never do everything well. There will always be other boxes that do some things better than a box that tries to do it all. So having two or three boxes will be necessary if you want the best options to play back content.


----------



## zalusky

I would like to see better remote scheduling and play list management.
Better what's new stuff. IE what are the new release movies without having to hunt.
Obviously better HD menus.
Better Netflix reliability.
Why can't they do caller id when the other guys do?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Video demo from CEDIA. Nothing too fancy, but this is their booth.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAlTsRajhls[/media]


----------



## lpwcomp

zalusky said:


> Why can't they do caller id when the other guys do?


Well, the fact that you can't even hook up a phone line to a newer TiVo w/o the use of an adapter would make that capability of marginal value.


----------



## Johncv

zalusky said:


> I would like to see better remote scheduling and play list management.
> Better what's new stuff. IE what are the new release movies without having to hunt.
> Obviously better HD menus.
> Better Netflix reliability.
> Why can't they do caller id when the other guys do?


The Netflix streaming program is design by Netflix, TiVo has no control over an update, compline to Netflix.

Why the h3ll do want caller id interrupting your show. I hate the caller id on the cable box, it interrupted True Blood three times last night. Have to find a way to turn the f**king thing off.

What I would like to see is the return of Showcase when you find what was on HBO, Showtime, Sundance, AMC, and other channels. Not Showads that they have now.


----------



## jfh3

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Video demo from CEDIA. Nothing too fancy, but this is their booth.
> 
> Video Link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both of the guys in the TiVo videos need to learn how to give a live presentation / demo. They were painful to watch.


----------



## bearcat2000

Painful was right...sounded like a kid at Best Buy trying to sell me something. I especially like the part when the guy was trying to search and said, "let's do it the hard way." Nice.



jfh3 said:


> Both of the guys in the TiVo videos need to learn how to give a live presentation / demo. They were painful to watch.


----------



## aaronwt

So the Elite can be connected to home automation control?

Darn! Am I going to have to buy an iPAD? I really liked the ipAD integration. I guess that is available right not. I'd love to get one but that would be all I would use it for. When are the equivalent android tablet apps coming out. I would certainly get an android tablet since I have no love for Apple. Plus I would use the Android tablet for other things as well.


----------



## MichaelK

innocentfreak said:


> It might already be certified. The Q probably is since RCN was looking for beta testers. Other than the hard drive they are probably the same hardware so I believe no other certification needed.


As pointed out above TiVo can self verify. But just to point out the rules aren't "fair" in that devices not sold at retail apparently don't need cable labs approval. RCN can put a pig with lipstick on their system if they want- no need to jump through cable labs hoops.


----------



## MichaelK

Johncv said:


> The Netflix streaming program is design by Netflix, TiVo has no control over an update, compline to Netflix. ....


So you think Netflix writes the code on all the different devices and platforms they stream to?

I think its been mentioned previously that Netflix has API's that the actual device manufacturers use to write their own code. If so failure=TiVo not Netflix.


----------



## jfh3

aaronwt said:


> So the Elite can be connected to home automation control?
> 
> Darn! Am I going to have to buy an iPAD? I really liked the ipAD integration. I guess that is available right not. I'd love to get one but that would be all I would use it for. When are the equivalent android tablet apps coming out. I would certainly get an android tablet since I have no love for Apple. Plus I would use the Android tablet for other things as well.


The iPad ap is available now.

The iPad ap is very nice - I actually bought an iPad just for the Tivo ap (and despite the fact I've never really cared for Apple, I've grown to love the device).

There is an unofficial Android ap (Tivo Commander) that works well.


----------



## morac

MichaelK said:


> So you think Netflix writes the code on all the different devices and platforms they stream to?
> 
> I think its been mentioned previously that Netflix has API's that the actual device manufacturers use to write their own code. If so failure=TiVo not Netflix.


Actually for nearly all other devices Netflix does kind of write the code because the entire interface is in HTML5, so Netflix can just change things on the server to change the UI. The TiVo's Netflix UI is an HME app which doesn't use HTML5 so it's harder to change.

Of course the underlying code to parse HTML5 (or run the HME app in TiVo's case) is written by the device manufacturer.


----------



## b_scott

aaronwt said:


> Sweet!! i will definitely be getting one. I would think the sale of two lifetie Premieres should cover 100%(or very close to 100% with MSD pricing) of the cost.
> Now hopefully the FCC doesn't screw us.


why though? Unless you're double stacking every room with two Tivos, then I don't get why even bother. Unless you're worried about $2 a month in extra cablecard costs.


----------



## innocentfreak

b_scott said:


> why though? Unless you're double stacking every room with two Tivos, then I don't get why even bother. Unless you're worried about $2 a month in extra cablecard costs.


On FiOS it is $3.99 which works out to an extra $45 a year per CableCARD.

I know in my house I do have a room with multiple TiVos which is why I will be getting an Elite to replace my remaining TiVo HD.


----------



## tivogurl

I can't even use an Elite until Cox replaces its tuning adapters with 4-channel versions.


----------



## innocentfreak

tivogurl said:


> I can't even use an Elite until Cox replaces its tuning adapters with 4-channel versions.


The FCC mandate went into effect on 8/8 so they have to support 4 channels now. It is just a firmware update and not new hardware.

The only way you would know is if you had a Ceton tuner or HD Prime.


----------



## tivogurl

innocentfreak said:


> The FCC mandate went into effect on 8/8 so they have to support 4 channels now. It is just a firmware update and not new hardware.


How can I tell if I have the required firmware?


----------



## innocentfreak

No idea if you can through TiVo though it might be under tuning adapter in settings.

It looks like it might be firmware version 1402.

http://experts.windows.com/frms/windows_entertainment_and_connected_home/f/115/t/101616.aspx?PageIndex=2


----------



## DCIFRTHS

b_scott said:


> why though? Unless you're double stacking every room with two Tivos, then I don't get why even bother. Unless you're worried about $2 a month in extra cablecard costs.


My S3 requires two CableCARDs per device. As stated, in the post after yours, FiOS charges 3.99 a month - per card. I have 6 cards


----------



## CoxInPHX

tivogurl said:


> I can't even use an Elite until Cox replaces its tuning adapters with 4-channel versions.





tivogurl said:


> How can I tell if I have the required firmware?


Cox has already updated the Cisco TA to support 4 Tuners (maybe 6), If by some reason your TA does not have the version below, Call and Cox should be able to push the firmware to your TA.

You can check your Tuning Adapter firmware in the TiVo Tuning Adapter Diagnostics.

*The new firmware is STA1.0.0_1520_LR_F.1402
*


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> why though? Unless you're double stacking every room with two Tivos, then I don't get why even bother. Unless you're worried about $2 a month in extra cablecard costs.


Cable cards are $4 on FiOS

Actually in my main room I have three Premieres. One is the unit I take to my girlfriends which also records the shows we watch together. The other two are the ones that I use for recordings in that room. They are all going to an HDMI switch and I'm constantly going back and forth between the two I use. So at the very least I would get an Elite to replace the two Premieres I use in that room for my recordings. That would save me one cable card. And I'll probably dump the cable card from the third TiVo in that room and go OTA only. It a $6.95 a month subscription so it isn't worth anything to sell anyway. So those two cable cards would save me $8 a month. 
And then I'll either keep my other two Premieres or get an Elite and a Preview to replace them.
I've decided to get one Elite first and then decide later about getting a second Elite. Plus I have to go through the hassle of selling the Premieres.


----------



## petew

b_scott said:


> Unless you're worried about $2 a month in extra cablecard costs.


And the electricity cost. At top tier rates in CA the cost to run a Premier is around $8 per month.


----------



## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> And I'll probably dump the cable card from the third TiVo in that room and go OTA only. It a $6.95 a month subscription so it isn't worth anything to sell anyway.


After upgrading I'm going to make the attempt to convert my $6.95/month TiVo HD to lifetime for $99 (retention offer) before selling. I agree that its pretty much worthless without lifetime.


----------



## dlfl

petew said:


> And the electricity cost. At top tier rates in CA the cost to run a Premier is around $8 per month.


What is that rate (cents/kwh)? TiVo's draw something around 35 watts, so it would take a rate of around $0.31/kwh to come up with $8/mo. I knew CA's rates were bad but ??? Also, what is "top tier" ?

Another factor is the Tuning Adapter. I wonder what wattage they run?


----------



## petew

dlfl said:


> What is that rate (cents/kwh)? TiVo's draw something around 35 watts, so it would take a rate of around $0.31/kwh to come up with $8/mo. I knew CA's rates were bad but ??? Also, what is "top tier" ?


In CA a "Baseline" usage is defined for each locale based on average temperatures for the area. Prices are then calculated as percentages of baseline:

Baseline Usage $0.12233
101-130% of Baseline $0.13907
131-200% of Baseline $0.30180
201-300% of Baseline $0.34180
Over 300% of Baseline	$0.34180

So top tier is the highest price you are charged and removing one tivo will reduce the amount of electricty used at that highest rate. Rates are better than they were in '09 the over 300% rate was $0.44348!


----------



## b_scott

so $45 a year....... and how much will it cost to replace that Tivo HD with a new Elite with lifetime? It can't be pocket change. Even at $45 a year extra, I'll bet you won't hit the Elite price before the next one comes out. Right now it's $1K for an Elite with Lifetime.

Fios sounds like a rip per card though. I can definitely see upgrading if you have a Series 3, as stated.

and my electric bill for my whole condo is $50 a month or so in the city of Chicago. I doubt one Tivo is 20% of that. I have a LOT of electronics.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

b_scott said:


> Fios sounds like a rip per card though. I can definitely see upgrading if you have a Series 3, as stated.
> 
> Yes. It's rip off.





b_scott said:


> and my electric bill for my whole condo is $50 a month or so in the city of Chicago. I doubt one Tivo is 20% of that. I have a LOT of electronics.


 $50 a month??? That's awesome. I pay at LEAST double that amount, and I am outside of the city.


----------



## aaronwt

b_scott said:


> so $45 a year....... and how much will it cost to replace that Tivo HD with a new Elite with lifetime? It can't be pocket change. Even at $45 a year extra, I'll bet you won't hit the Elite price before the next one comes out. Right now it's $1K for an Elite with Lifetime.
> 
> Fios sounds like a rip per card though. I can definitely see upgrading if you have a Series 3, as stated.
> 
> and my electric bill for my whole condo is $50 a month or so in the city of Chicago. I doubt one Tivo is 20% of that. I have a LOT of electronics.


That is an excellent bill. The only time i've ever had an electric bill of $50 was back in the 90's when I was traveling every week and was rarely home. So my water heater was usually off, no heat/AC etc. Nowadays my normal monthly electric bill is around $150 a month with around 11.7 cents a Kilowatt hour.

EDIT: crap, I just realized that those rates are my Summer rates. It's around 10 cents during other times. I never changed my Kill-A-Watt meters to reflect the price increase for Summer.


----------



## innocentfreak

b_scott said:


> so $45 a year....... and how much will it cost to replace that Tivo HD with a new Elite with lifetime? It can't be pocket change. Even at $45 a year extra, I'll bet you won't hit the Elite price before the next one comes out. Right now it's $1K for an Elite with Lifetime.


In my house we will most likely keep the TiVo HD or let my sister use it. I could use a TiVo in another room.


----------



## petew

b_scott said:


> so $45 a year....... and how much will it cost to replace that Tivo HD with a new Elite with lifetime?


Last time I checked $8/month is $96 per year (assuming Premier Elite has similar consumption to one HD), even at $1.50/month the saving on the cablecard tips the total over $100, so 5 years to break even on the box. Assuming I ditch two $6.95 MSD Subcriptions as well break even on Elite + MSD Lifetime is just over 3 years.


----------



## happylily

great topic, thanks for sharing


----------



## ghuido

Anyone know if it will get a better or updated CPU for the 2 TB version Premiere Elite


----------



## jmpage2

ghuido said:


> Anyone know if it will get a better or updated CPU for the 2 TB version Premiere Elite


----------



## Joe01880

petew said:


> Last time I checked $8/month is $96 per year (assuming Premier Elite has similar consumption to one HD), even at $1.50/month the saving on the cablecard tips the total over $100, so 5 years to break even on the box. Assuming I ditch two $6.95 MSD Subcriptions as well break even on Elite + MSD Lifetime is just over 3 years.


assuming you have no repair issues (HDD failure) that increases the overall cost of the TiVo.


----------



## ghuido

jmpage2 said:


>


Okay, that is priceless


----------



## crazywater

Interesting tidbit buried in the latest TiVo PR about a deal between MaxLinear and TiVo;



> The release also confirms some info we'd already heard about the TiVo Preview having a built-in CableCARD tuner:
> 
> _The Premiere Q is connected to the main cable drop and communicates to the TiVo Preview, which functions as a thin client in other rooms throughout the house creating a fantastic multi-room viewing experience. The TiVo Preview also can be used by cable operators as a standalone HD cable STB._


See this post for more...


----------



## hhh222

I'd love to replace my S3 with one of these but as long you can't transfer the lifetime service for a reasonable fee it won't happen.


----------



## socrplyr

hhh222 said:


> I'd love to replace my S3 with one of these but as long you can't transfer the lifetime service for a reasonable fee it won't happen.


Buy a new box and put lifetime on it and sell your old one... Seems pretty cheap to me.


----------



## b_scott

petew said:


> Last time I checked $8/month is $96 per year (assuming Premier Elite has similar consumption to one HD), even at $1.50/month the saving on the cablecard tips the total over $100, so 5 years to break even on the box. Assuming I ditch two $6.95 MSD Subcriptions as well break even on Elite + MSD Lifetime is just over 3 years.


I meant to quote this response, it was the last on the page and I thought I was right below it (but was not):



innocentfreak said:


> On FiOS it is $3.99 which works out to an extra $45 a year per CableCARD.
> 
> I know in my house I do have a room with multiple TiVos which is why I will be getting an Elite to replace my remaining TiVo HD.


----------



## morac

crazywater said:


> Interesting tidbit buried in the latest TiVo PR about a deal between MaxLinear and TiVo;
> 
> See this post for more...


That's basically a fancy way of saying MoCA.


----------



## rjspring

socrplyr said:


> Buy a new box and put lifetime on it and sell your old one... Seems pretty cheap to me.


Is there a market for older tivo models?

To keep longtime customers, there should be a good incentive for new boxes with lifetime subs.


----------



## aaronwt

rjspring said:


> Is there a market for older tivo models?
> 
> To keep longtime customers, there should be a good incentive for new boxes with lifetime subs.


There was when the Premiere first came out. Although I would be surprised to see it with the Elite. Since it's aimed at the HomeTheater crowd and supposedly isn't going to be sold everywhere like the Premiere is.

They will probably just stick with the Multi-Service Discount of $400 for Lifetime instead of the normal $500.
But it would be nice to see an aditional $100 discount like they had with the Premiere.


----------



## innocentfreak

Yeah unfortunately I don't see them doing an upgrade offer. I could potentially see them offering a free Slide Remote or something along those lines. I would be pleasantly surprised if they offered an upgrade offer more than MSO.


----------



## ah30k

I finally see my old (yet still running) grandfathered Philips S1 getting put out to pasture and the one-time free transfer getting used up.

I sure hope TiVo doesn't try to wiggle out of it. There really can't be too many of us old-timers left.


----------



## jfh3

ah30k said:


> I finally see my old (yet still running) grandfathered Philips S1 getting put out to pasture and the one-time free transfer getting used up.
> 
> I sure hope TiVo doesn't try to wiggle out of it. There really can't be too many of us old-timers left.


I still have a (working) grandfathered S1. And an unused lifetime subscription card.


----------



## ghuido

I'm wondering if with the Premiere Elite MoCA Capabilities if it makes Comcast VoD a little bit more possible ... <I'll wait for the next pig flying post. Please make it a new image>


----------



## rainwater

ghuido said:


> I'm wondering if with the Premiere Elite MoCA Capabilities if it makes Comcast VoD a little bit more possible ... <I'll wait for the next pig flying post. Please make it a new image>


I don't see what MOCA has to do with VOD?


----------



## MichaelK

ghuido-

moca is for sending data over the coax only within the house. To send data back/forth to the head end tivo would need to add other stuff to a tivo (I *think* a DOCSIS modem but really not sure)


----------



## ghuido

MichaelK said:


> ghuido-
> 
> moca is for sending data over the coax only within the house. To send data back/forth to the head end tivo would need to add other stuff to a tivo (I *think* a DOCSIS modem but really not sure)


Ah .. thanks. Forgot that.


----------



## BOHICA

I know they are waiting on FCC approval, but have they given a tentative release date?


----------



## petew

BOHICA said:


> I know they are waiting on FCC approval, but have they given a tentative release date?


FCC approval was granted last week. IIRC Tivo are hoping to release in October.


----------



## hammer32

Any updates on the Preview 'thin client'?


----------



## innocentfreak

petew said:


> FCC approval was granted last week. IIRC Tivo are hoping to release in October.


Yeah at least from the filing they are aiming for a mid-October ship date.


----------



## vitos

Hoping to get a little direction... I have a TiVo HD box that's having some issues with reboots. (I think the power supply is dying). Rather than pay $99 for a new power supply, I was thinking about getting the Premier. I don't think my $9.99 monthly service will transfer to a Premier, correct?

Rather than fix the HD box, or get a Premier, should I just wait for the Elite? My primary concern is menu speed. I just watched the video of the Elite and the menu speed doesn't look like it improved much.

PS: I have another HD box with lifetime sub and recently purchased a slide remote for it. Menu speed is *EXTREMELY* fast! Any reason why this is?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Generally the speed seems snappier with the slide remote because it removes the innate IR lag of the regular remote. Not that the IR is slow, but bluetooth is faster.

For all intents and purposes the Elite appears to be mostly the same Premiere, just with more tuners and storage. I don't believe your current monthly price will transfer, but if you do ever decide to get any of the Premiere boxes, you can choose between the laggy HD menus and the classic menus, which are pretty snappy. I hardly ever use the HD menus.

I've had a hard time recommending an upgrade to a Premiere for any Series 3 owners since there haven't been enough reasons to upgrade (in my opinion). But 4 tuners may be attractive if you have a need for them (and if you are a cable-only user).

Or, if you just want to repair the power supply there may be some cheap Tivos on ebay or something that you can buy for the parts.


----------



## jfh3

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Generally the speed seems snappier with the slide remote because it removes the innate IR lag of the regular remote. Not that the IR is slow, but bluetooth is faster.
> 
> For all intents and purposes the Elite appears to be mostly the same Premiere, just with more tuners and storage. I don't believe your current monthly price will transfer, but if you do ever decide to get any of the Premiere boxes, you can choose between the laggy HD menus and the classic menus, which are pretty snappy. I hardly ever use the HD menus.
> 
> I've had a hard time recommending an upgrade to a Premiere for any Series 3 owners since there haven't been enough reasons to upgrade (in my opinion). But 4 tuners may be attractive if you have a need for them (and if you are a cable-only user).
> 
> Or, if you just want to repair the power supply there may be some cheap Tivos on ebay or something that you can buy for the parts.


The Elite will also have MOCA support (Ethernet over coax) and different hardware for the tuners.


----------



## aaronwt

Didn't someone hint at a faster processor and more memory? 
The Premiere seemed to be stretched to it's limits when recording two streams, watching a previosuly recorded one, downloading one, and also streaming to another Premiere.
With four tuners, just for the box itself it needs to be able to handle all four tuners, watching a previously recorded show and downloading a show. And then if you add streaming to other Premieres or Previews that could add maybe two more streams.

It will certainly be interesting to see how it performs.


----------



## Troy J B

vitos said:


> My primary concern is menu speed. I just watched the video of the Elite and the menu speed doesn't look like it improved much.


I am not convinced the software we saw in the video was anything more then the current premiere code altered to allow it to run on the Elite . Eg, I only saw it recording 2 streams. You would think if they are marketing it as a 4 tuner device and had the software ready, they would have had it recording at least 3 streams.


----------



## kturcotte

Nobody's REALLY going to know the speed until it's released and somebody gets their hands on one. I suspect the beefed up hardware to accommodate the 4 tuners might *SLIGHTLY* help it, but not that much. It's really going to depend on the software developers to speed up the menu. Hopefully once this gets released, along with the cable company version, and FINALLY the DirecTivo, they can really start working on the software.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I think what we saw is what we're going to get. The Elite was apparently running 14.9 which I'm betting every Premiere will eventually receive. So yes technically that is just altered current code. But it's all we're gonna get.

As for the processor and RAM, I would think that it probably has more memory to handle more concurrent video, but who knows if this means more system memory, or if it's just built straight into the tuners, or both.

The recording workload in general isn't really put on the CPU, so I wouldn't hold my breath about a faster CPU. I could be totally wrong, though. My only reason for saying that is because if they did upgrade the CPU, the logical choice would be the next step up broadcom chip that integrates MoCA. But since they have a different supplier for their MoCA chips, I'm deducing that the CPU itself likely hasn't changed. But I could be wrong, definitely.

Whatever the case, the demo unit in the video moves at the same speed the current Premiere does, and I'm not going to hold out hope for any difference on a production model. Methinks real performance improvements will require a significant software rewrite. Maybe version 16 if we're lucky?


----------



## innocentfreak

It will be interesting to see if TiVo uses 4 live buffers or only 2 at a time. 4 seems overkill and unnecessary, but I haven't seen them say either way.


----------



## shwru980r

innocentfreak said:


> It will be interesting to see if TiVo uses 4 live buffers or only 2 at a time. 4 seems overkill and unnecessary, but I haven't seen them say either way.


Four live streams would be compelling for sports junkies trying to follow multiple games that are broadcast at the same time.


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> It will be interesting to see if TiVo uses 4 live buffers or only 2 at a time. 4 seems overkill and unnecessary, but I haven't seen them say either way.


It wouldn't be a TiVo DVR without a buffer. How would it know what tuner you want to switch to? It would need a buffer on every tuner. It would only make sense to have four buffers or no buffers and nothing in between.


----------



## MichaelK

aaronwt said:


> It wouldn't be a TiVo DVR without a buffer. How would it know what tuner you want to switch to? It would need a buffer on every tuner. It would only make sense to have four buffers or no buffers and nothing in between.


I'd agree. If it only had 2 buffers- which 2 tuners would be selected to have them?

Its already got to be able to write 4 streams to disk so whats it matter if it's 4 recordings or 4 buffers?


----------



## innocentfreak

The thinking is 4 constant buffers uses more processing power than 2 buffers. By eliminating those 2 buffers when not needed, it would free up some cycles. 

The tuners selected would be the free tuners just like it works now. If you were recording on 2 tuners, the other 2 tuners would have the 2 buffers. It just wouldn't take all 4 buffers if nothing else was recording including suggestions. 

Personally I don't care if it doesn't have buffers at all since I never watch live TV and haven't in probably 10 years. I was just thinking outloud since unless I missed it at no point did TiVo mention it or touch on it.


----------



## RMBittner

shwru980r said:


> Four live streams would be compelling for sports junkies trying to follow multiple games that are broadcast at the same time.


You would be much better off recording these than relying on the live buffers. Accidents happen, buttons get pushed. . . If you really want to be sure you have the games, you shouldn't rely solely on the live buffer.

Bob


----------



## morac

innocentfreak said:


> The thinking is 4 constant buffers uses more processing power than 2 buffers. By eliminating those 2 buffers when not needed, it would free up some cycles.


Even if that was the case, it would still need to have the processing power to handle recording on 4 streams plus do whatever background processing it needs to do. Given that, there's no reason to drop down to 2 buffers when not recording.


----------



## doormat

morac said:


> Given that, there's no reason to drop down to 2 buffers when not recording.


Power savings. 99% of the time my TiVo isn't recording multiple streams. It can save power by turning off unused hardware inside.


----------



## Bigg

morac said:


> Even if that was the case, it would still need to have the processing power to handle recording on 4 streams plus do whatever background processing it needs to do. Given that, there's no reason to drop down to 2 buffers when not recording.


Chewing up the hard drive. The whole constant buffer idea was never a good one from day 1.


----------



## morac

doormat said:


> Power savings. 99% of the time my TiVo isn't recording multiple streams. It can save power by turning off unused hardware inside.


Power savings would be minimal since there's no encoding or transcoding going on, just a direct write to disk. Unless the disk is shut off, which is actually bad, there really wouldn't be any savings.



Bigg said:


> Chewing up the hard drive. The whole constant buffer idea was never a good one from day 1.


The drives that TiVo uses are designed to be written to 24/7. Hard drive failures don't fail any more often in TiVos than in other devices. If a drive is going to fail, it usually does so in the first year. Personally I've been using different TiVos since 2004 and never saw a drive failure. Then again, I've never seen a harddrive fail in my (or my Parent's) PC (or PS3) either and I've been using personal computers for over 25 years.


----------



## DCIFRTHS

aaronwt said:


> It wouldn't be a TiVo DVR without a buffer. How would it know what tuner you want to switch to? It would need a buffer on every tuner. It would only make sense to have four buffers or no buffers and nothing in between.


Totally agree.


----------



## Joe01880

aaronwt said:


> Didn't someone hint at a faster processor and more memory?
> The Premiere seemed to be stretched to it's limits when recording two streams, watching a previosuly recorded one, downloading one, and also streaming to another Premiere.
> With four tuners, just for the box itself it needs to be able to handle all four tuners, watching a previously recorded show and downloading a show. And then if you add streaming to other Premieres or Previews that could add maybe two more streams.
> 
> It will certainly be interesting to see how it performs.


All the more reason to sit back and watch what first adopters have to say before diving in.


----------



## aaronwt

I don't like sitting back I still plan on getting one as soon as they are available at Best Buy Magnolia.
I just hope I can get enough from the sale of two of my Lifetime Premieres. I'll need to sell an XL and non XL and both have the extended warranties so I hope that helps me get a higher price for them.


----------



## brentil

Troy J B said:


> I am not convinced the software we saw in the video was anything more then the current premiere code altered to allow it to run on the Elite . Eg, I only saw it recording 2 streams. You would think if they are marketing it as a 4 tuner device and had the software ready, they would have had it recording at least 3 streams.


In my version 16 thread one of the posters had seen an Elite in person at the trade show and looked at the TiVo version info and it was running 14.9 which is only one minor version ahead of what we're running now.

I truly believe there's a version 16 on the horizon that will possibly bring a large number of changes on the core OS level. If you're interested in reading what I found the link is in my sig.


----------



## innocentfreak

So much for $499. 

Best Buy link


----------



## MichaelK

Rofl


----------



## rainwater

innocentfreak said:


> So much for $499.
> 
> Best Buy link


Best Buy always does this. It keeps people from buying items before they set the price.


----------



## innocentfreak

I know but it is also usually a good sign the item is close.

For example the same thing happend 3/17/10 on Best Buy with the Premiere. 
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=445063

The Premiere was then available 3/28 at Best Buy and shipped from TiVo.com 3/29.


----------



## jfh3

Which seems reasonable, given the 10/07 release date leak a week or so back.


----------



## innocentfreak

No disagreement here. Hopefully we have a midnight embargo coming up soon. 

I imagine TiVo will give at least a few days notice of an official release and ship date or at least for a pre-order program. I have a feeling I may be buying mine at Best Buy since last time I ended up waiting for ground shipping from TiVo.


----------



## Johncv

innocentfreak said:


> No disagreement here. Hopefully we have a midnight embargo coming up soon.
> 
> I imagine TiVo will give at least a few days notice of an official release and ship date or at least for a pre-order program. I have a feeling I may be buying mine at Best Buy since last time I ended up waiting for ground shipping from TiVo.


Can you add lifetime to it if you buy it from Best Buy?


----------



## innocentfreak

It should be just like the Premiere so yes.


----------



## jfh3

Johncv said:


> Can you add lifetime to it if you buy it from Best Buy?


Yes.


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> So much for $499.
> 
> Best Buy link


This is great news. The release must be soon. I need to find my Best Buy coupon or get one off Ebay. Hopefully I'll be able to use it.


----------



## GatorBlues

Is TIVO planning to sell a dummy box to let you stream from an Elite over MOCA or has that rumor died on the vine? That's the piece that would really make this attractive. I have a workout room where the TV is on maybe 4 hours per week at most and guest room where the TV is on even less. Having affordable boxes that could stream from the main box for those rare occasions would be ideal.


----------



## brentil

It's called the TiVo Preview and according to their press announcements it'll work with the new TiVo Q & Elite as well as existing Premieres. However we have no heard any more news about it since it was announced with those devices.


----------



## shwru980r

Will it stream to a Premiere? If it doesn't stream to a Premiere, then there might be many more used lifetime Premieres for sale.


----------



## rainwater

brentil said:


> It's called the TiVo Preview and according to their press announcements it'll work with the new TiVo Q & Elite as well as existing Premieres. However we have no heard any more news about it since it was announced with those devices.


TiVo has never said the Preview was coming to retail. They did announce it would be available to cable MSOs however. Whether it comes to retail or not is unknown.


----------



## jfh3

shwru980r said:


> Will it stream to a Premiere? If it doesn't stream to a Premiere, then there might be many more used lifetime Premieres for sale.


Yes, it will stream to a Premiere (when the streaming feature is enabled).


----------



## brentil

From the TiVo announcement they specifically spell out the Premiere seperate from the Q.



> and immediate streaming access to DVR content from a *TiVo Premiere or Premiere Q*. Similar to Premiere Q, Preview includes integrated MoCA and Ethernet for home networking and multi-room applications.


Now there's no mention of the old system gaining MoCA, but I don't know enough about that tech to know if it's a software update addon or hardware required feature.


----------



## innocentfreak

MoCa is definitely hardware. You could easily buy a MoCa adapter to connect the premiere over MoCa.


----------



## RichB

Ethernet connected DVR's do not need MoCa. MoCa gives you internet access over your cable connection.

- Rich


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> MoCa is definitely hardware. You could easily buy a MoCa adapter to connect the premiere over MoCa.


But that might slow things down. With two MoCA endpoints(at least with the hardware that Netgear and Dlink sells) you only get around 70Mbps total bandwidth. The Premiere needs more speed than that since it's ethernet connection can get up to around 95Mbps transfer rates.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> But that might slow things down. With two MoCA endpoints(at least with the hardware that Netgear and Dlink sells) you only get around 70Mbps total bandwidth. The Premiere needs more speed than that since it's ethernet connection can get up to around 95Mbps transfer rates.


RCN only references the Actiontec ECB so no idea. Maybe they found it is enough or just what they chose to go with. It is interesting to note that at least RCN says the Q must be hardwired. It makes sense but I don't know if this will be the same for the Elite or if they are doing it for support reasons from RCN.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r26363816-TiVo-Tivo-Q



rcnman said:


> Hey Everyone, I'm actually at TiVo this week, but wanted to post this :
> 
> Quad MUST be hard-wired, if it physically can not be hardwired then a Actiontec ECB will be installed to light moca thru the house.
> 
> MOCA is really really nice, it lights up about a 100M link thru the RF. To prevent MOCA from leaving your home the TECH will install a POE Filter (point of entry filter) this will stop your MOCA signal from leaving the home.
> 
> It's really plug and play as well, no wep keys , no SSID's no signal strength.. IT's REALLY nice. I'm a big fan of the ActionTec Solution.


----------



## morac

aaronwt said:


> But that might slow things down. With two MoCA endpoints(at least with the hardware that Netgear and Dlink sells) you only get around 70Mbps total bandwidth. The Premiere needs more speed than that since it's ethernet connection can get up to around 95Mbps transfer rates.


70Mbps is fast enough for multiple simultaneous transfers/streams.

Also MoCA to MoCA connections can get real speeds upwards of 150Mbps (limited by the 100Mbps Ethernet port), so unlike 100Mbps Ethernet, it won't get bogged down if you have multiple MoCA devices transferring at max speeds between each other as transfers between MoCA devices are direct between them, bypassing routers (i.e. bypassing Ethernet).


----------



## brentil

A 1080p stream off of a Blu-Ray is between 25~35 mbps, a lightly encoded MPEG version will be between 10~20 mbps, and a highly compressed H.264 stream will be 1~5 mbps. So even if the MoCA was capped at 70 mbps it would still be sufficient to stream multiple Preview devices at the same time.


----------



## jmpage2

There is still no reason at all to anticipate that the Preview is going to be sold at retail, which is a drag, since that would be the primary reason I would get the Elite... I would drop down to a single quad core TiVo with lifetime and just put Previews in the other rooms. Too bad TiVo has their head in the sand on this one.


----------



## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> But that might slow things down. With two MoCA endpoints(at least with the hardware that Netgear and Dlink sells) you only get around 70Mbps total bandwidth. The Premiere needs more speed than that since it's ethernet connection can get up to around 95Mbps transfer rates.


 I have old MoCA hardware (3 Motorola NIM100 units) and get better than that. I've clocked MRV between 2 Premieres connected via 2 NIM100 units over 85 Mbps, and that is first generation MoCA. Not as good as direct ethernet but very close. I would have to think with newer hardware one could do better.


----------



## moyekj

jmpage2 said:


> There is still no reason at all to anticipate that the Preview is going to be sold at retail, which is a drag, since that would be the primary reason I would get the Elite... I would drop down to a single quad core TiVo with lifetime and just put Previews in the other rooms. Too bad TiVo has their head in the sand on this one.


 I think the problem is for retail use the Preview units would have to sell pretty cheaply and with no subscription for people to buy them - I certainly wouldn't buy them otherwise. If they did offer fairly cheap no-subscription Preview units it may also eat into potential additional retail DVR + service sales as well. So I don't think there's much money in it for TiVo to do so.


----------



## aaronwt

brentil said:


> A 1080p stream off of a Blu-Ray is between 25~35 mbps, a lightly encoded MPEG version will be between 10~20 mbps, and a highly compressed H.264 stream will be 1~5 mbps. So even if the MoCA was capped at 70 mbps it would still be sufficient to stream multiple Preview devices at the same time.


I only mentioned that speed as a comparison to the current 85Mbps to 95Mbps transfer rates. And that is with my current MoCA devices with just two. When a third is added the total bandwidth goes over 100Mbps. But I plan on using ethernet for my Elite but I might use MoCA in the future.


----------



## jrm01

I haven't been following everything in this thread, but I just got an e-mail providing this info on the Elite:



> Premiere Elite is the ideal addition to any mid to high-end entertainment system. It's compatible with MoCA (Multimedia over Coax Alliance) for home entertainment networking, and it integrates with control solutions like Control4, Crestron, URC and RTI. Premiere Elite also includes an Ethernet port and 16 HDMI ports for connectivity to up to 15 TVs in a home.


WOW. 16 HDMI ports?? Must be a record.

BTW. The e-mail also said it will be available on the 10th, not the 9th as some have suggested.


----------



## innocentfreak

jrm01 said:


> I haven't been following everything in this thread, but I just got an e-mail providing this info on the Elite:
> 
> WOW. 16 HDMI ports?? Must be a record.
> 
> BTW. The e-mail also said it will be available on the 10th, not the 9th as some have suggested.


What email? I haven't seen any emails, but I doubt it has 16 HDMI ports.


----------



## jfh3

It does not have 16 HDMI ports, but can drive 16 HDMI monitors out.


----------



## sbiller

http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-premiere-hd-dvr-series4.php


----------



## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> http://www.weaknees.com/tivo-premiere-hd-dvr-series4.php


Sweet!! So I guess 10/9 is the launch date. I hope I'll be able to snag one from BestBuy since I might not be able to get there until that Monday evening if I can't make it there Sunday morning.


----------



## innocentfreak

aaronwt said:


> Sweet!! So I guess 10/9 is the launch date. I hope I'll be able to snag one from BestBuy since I might not be able to get there until that Monday evening if I can't make it there Sunday morning.


Online order for store pick up. Then when you get there return rebut for the coupon.


----------



## aaronwt

Are there still deals on the BT remote? I might pick one up for the Elite if they are still a good price.


----------



## innocentfreak

Looks like around $40 on amazon.


----------



## magnus

innocentfreak said:


> So much for $499.
> 
> Best Buy link


This damn inflation is all Obama's fault.


----------



## slowbiscuit

moyekj said:


> I think the problem is for retail use the Preview units would have to sell pretty cheaply and with no subscription for people to buy them - I certainly wouldn't buy them otherwise. If they did offer fairly cheap no-subscription Preview units it may also eat into potential additional retail DVR + service sales as well. So I don't think there's much money in it for TiVo to do so.


Agree with this, and I also wonder whether the Preview (if it ever sees the light of day) will REQUIRE Cablecard to be installed. If I ever switched to this setup I would only want to stream live TV and recordings from an Elite, but I don't think this is possible for live TV at least. It would suck to have to pay outlet fees for cards on Comcast for every Preview just to get live TV, but I'm sure Tivo doesn't care.

Turn a Tivo setup into something akin to what we can do with WMC and extenders, in other words. One Elite with tuners and a single M-card, everything else Previews with no cards.


----------



## rainwater

slowbiscuit said:


> Turn a Tivo setup into something akin to what we can do with WMC and extenders, in other words. One Elite with tuners and a single M-card, everything else Previews with no cards.


If you have ever used the Moxi extenders, you would know why this is a bad design. Having these extenders unable to watch live tv makes for a bad experience. It isn't uncommon for the main dvr to be recording 2 things and watching live tv. Then if one other extender is watching live tv, the other extenders are useless for live tv. I don't think having tuners in the extenders is some evil attempt by TiVo to make you get a m-card. I think they are just solving the lack of tuners problem so the user experience isn't lacking.


----------



## brentil

The Preview device is a standalone device that offers the same TiVo experience as a DVR version just without the DVR. So in order to do cable TV on one without streaming from a Q/Elite it would require CC/SDV in order to function properly. This also means it has the TiVo guide built in and all of the other TiVo features. To keep costs down one would assume the 2nd tuner has been ripped out so it can only tune 1 channel at a time, and being a cable company device it would only work with cable channels and not OTA.



> TiVo Preview provides the full TiVo user experience for non-DVR households and also functions as a thin client complement to those using a TiVo DVR, creating a fantastic multi-room viewing experience. Both set-top boxes support the full integration of operator services such as Video on Demand, PPV, CallerID on the TV and linear programming, plus access to broadband applications and services.


The problem is though we don't know if these will ever be offered to retail. So if they come from a cable provider they can have the CC/SDV built into it making it non-user accessible.

When it comes to if it'll have a service plan or not it's really tough to say. It has the same features as a Premiere just minus a DVR, so it still connects to TiVo for updates & guide info as well as all of the other premium services they offer. If these were sold as retail devices I would unfortunately expect a monthly fee for them as that is how TiVo makes their money. However to me if that monthly fee is anything over $5 per device it would be highway robbery. It would make more sense to move in line with what cable companies are doing with whole house DVRs that are designs like this. They charge a higher base price for the initial service but each addon device is then free. For example instead of the $19/m fee it would be $24/m but access to as many Previews as you want (technical limit seems to be 3 per system).


----------



## sbiller

rainwater said:


> If you have ever used the Moxi extenders, you would know why this is a bad design. Having these extenders unable to watch live tv makes for a bad experience. It isn't uncommon for the main dvr to be recording 2 things and watching live tv. Then if one other extender is watching live tv, the other extenders are useless for live tv. I don't think having tuners in the extenders is some evil attempt by TiVo to make you get a m-card. I think they are just solving the lack of tuners problem so the user experience isn't lacking.


Agree completely. The extender needs to be able to watch live TV. Further, if the extender can't pause live TV for a few seconds that makes for a less than satisfactory experience. Most whole home DVR solutions I know of (Verizon FiOS) do not allow pausing of live TV on the extender. This is frustrating for a user. I believe the Preview may not allow pausing of live TV. I decided for this reason to upgrade to a TiVo Premiere on my 2nd TV instead of waiting for the Preview because of the uncertainty related to pausing/buffering of live TV.


----------



## brentil

sbiller said:


> Agree completely. The extender needs to be able to watch live TV. Further, if the extender can't pause live TV for a few seconds that makes for a less than satisfactory experience. Most whole home DVR solutions I know of (Verizon FiOS) do not allow pausing of live TV on the extender. This is frustrating for a user. I believe the Preview may not allow pausing of live TV. I decided for this reason to upgrade to a TiVo Premiere on my 2nd TV instead of waiting for the Preview because of the uncertainty related to pausing/buffering of live TV.


Pausing live TV requires a hard drive along with an decode/encode/decode process while live TV is just a live stream decode. Once you remove the requirement for storing video content directly on storage you can remove the HDD which is the #1 source of failure on TiVo devices. It's also the main source of NVH (noise, vibration, and heat) too. <Begin Speculation> Removing the HDD and replacing it with a large enough Flash storage medium like current cable boxes/PS3/Xbox 360 type devices use you can shrink the device, decrease power needs, increase reliability, as well as increase system performance. To run the main OS you would only need 1~2 GB of storage. If you want to offer VOD downloads maybe a couple more GB.


----------



## RichB

The TiVo Premiere represents the first stand-alone cable box replacement on the market. It costs $4 for my cable card and it costs $10 for a HD cable box that is too big for my kitchen TV.

I only buy Lifetime TiVos so I want a lifetime Premiere as well.
Some accommodation should be made for those with lifetime memberships.

TiVo really should offer bundles of Elite and Premieres.

- Rich


----------



## rainwater

RichB said:


> Some accommodation should be made for those with lifetime memberships.


Why? TiVo makes more money off monthly subscriptions.


----------



## RichB

rainwater said:


> Why? TiVo makes more money off monthly subscriptions.


You do know sell lifetime subscriptions, right?

- Rich


----------



## atmuscarella

RichB said:


> You do know sell lifetime subscriptions, right?
> 
> - Rich


What's that got to do with rainwater's comment?

He was pointing out that people who purchase lifetime already save money (TiVo makes less or TiVo makes more on monthly subscriptions however you want to say it). So I think he was asking why should TiVo make additional accommodations to people with lifetime service?

I actually don't understand what you meant when you said:

"I only buy Lifetime TiVos so I want a lifetime Premiere as well.
Some accommodation should be made for those with lifetime memberships."​
Thanks,


----------



## RichB

rainwater said:


> Why? TiVo makes more money off monthly subscriptions.





RichB said:


> You do know sell lifetime subscriptions, right?
> 
> - Rich





atmuscarella said:


> What's that got to do with rainwater's comment?
> 
> He was pointing out that people who purchase lifetime already save money (TiVo makes less or TiVo makes more on monthly subscriptions however you want to say it). So I think he was asking why should TiVo make additional accommodations to people with lifetime service?
> 
> I actually don't understand what you meant when you said:
> 
> "I only buy Lifetime TiVos so I want a lifetime Premiere as well.
> Some accommodation should be made for those with lifetime memberships."​
> Thanks,


I assume that TiVo Makes more money overall than they would if they did not sell lifetime subscriptions or they would not offer them. I know I would not buy them.

TiVo could offer Lifetime Premiere customers a Lifetime option for Previews.

I have given my parents many TiVo's over the years. I do not give them bills to pay 

- Rich


----------



## brentil

I'm pretty sure the majority of TiVo subscribers are not lifetime and that's really where they make all of their money is subscription fees. Especially now that they're subsidizing the box cost.


----------



## moyekj

rainwater said:


> If you have ever used the Moxi extenders, you would know why this is a bad design. Having these extenders unable to watch live tv makes for a bad experience. It isn't uncommon for the main dvr to be recording 2 things and watching live tv. Then if one other extender is watching live tv, the other extenders are useless for live tv. I don't think having tuners in the extenders is some evil attempt by TiVo to make you get a m-card. I think they are just solving the lack of tuners problem so the user experience isn't lacking.


 Personally I would like a cheap, no subscription version of a TiVo extender with no live TV capability or in fact no tuner of any kind (and of course thus no cablecard slot either). i.e. The only purpose is to stream shows from other TiVo units. Maybe an option for "live tv streaming" from a Premiere would be useful to some but that complicates things a lot more (subject to tuner availability) and I don't need/want that either. I never watch live TV anyway. However I don't think there's much money in such a device so doubt there will ever be one, at least not from TiVo.


----------



## RichB

moyekj said:


> Personally I would like a cheap, no subscription version of a TiVo extender with no live TV capability or in fact no tuner of any kind (and of course thus no cablecard slot either). i.e. The only purpose is to stream shows from other TiVo units. Maybe an option for "live tv streaming" from a Premiere would be useful to some but that complicates things a lot more (subject to tuner availability) and I don't need/want that either. I never watch live TV anyway. However I don't think there's much money in such a device so doubt there will ever be one, at least not from TiVo.


All TiVo has to do is support DLNA or Apple AirPlay and the options would be huge.

- Rich


----------



## mjfalk

Just saw two boxes in my local BestBuy(Cambridge MA). A brown box with TIVO Elite on the side. Asked if it was for sale and salesperson said no, not until Sunday.


----------



## Johncv

mjfalk said:


> Just saw two boxes in my local BestBuy(Cambridge MA). A brown box with TIVO Elite on the side. Asked if it was for sale and salesperson said no, not until Sunday.


What are you all going to do when you all buy this and then three months later Cox, Comcast, and Time-Warner decide to officer the TiVo Q or whatever the thing is called with VOD and everything on the internet. Pig may fly first, but one can dream.


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## jmpage2

Yes, i see this as more of a stop gap to address the criticism of only two tuners with the Premiere more than it being a "new" box.

They might have run out of horsepower already with the TiVo architecture, and are trying to buy time until they are ready with something that is next generation for next year.

I am going to hold off on this even though four tuners would be nice. If they had offered a bundle that included TiVo Previews I probably would have gone for it.


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## innocentfreak

Johncv said:


> What are you all going to do when you all buy this and then three months later Cox, Comcast, and Time-Warner decide to officer the TiVo Q or whatever the thing is called with VOD and everything on the internet. Pig may fly first, but one can dream.


Why would I want to give the cable companies any more money much less use their horrible ui for vod? Then on top of that you are stuck with content that you can't always ff or rew and with no guarantee it will still be their when you go to watch it.


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## djwilso

Johncv said:


> What are you all going to do when you all buy this and then three months later Cox, Comcast, and Time-Warner decide to officer the TiVo Q or whatever the thing is called with VOD and everything on the internet. Pig may fly first, but one can dream.


I just wonder if all of the Internet stuff will actually be there. I would guess *not*.


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## innocentfreak

Starting to wonder if 10/9 is really the release date. It just seems incredibly short notice since still no official announcement or even an email from TiVo saying it is coming soon.

Hopefully I am wrong or it is just like the premiere where BB sold it early by a week or so.


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## jrm01

My local BB was notified that it will be available on Monday 10/10. New peoducts like this are usually released on a Sunday at BB, but for some reason this one is set to Monday.

The way that they usually keep stores from selling a day early is to have the POS system set the price at $10,000 until the release date.

Still no date on the TiVo website:

http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere-elite/index.html#tab


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## mattack

RichB said:


> The TiVo Premiere represents the first stand-alone cable box replacement on the market.


Umm, what?

So the OLED Series 3 and Tivo HD are just my imagination?


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## jfh3

I have an Elite!


(I just can't pick it up until Sunday).

Called my local Best Buy, asked if they had any in stock. Rep said yes and offered to hold it for me until closing tonight. I got there, they pulled the box out for me, but couldn't get past the $10K price 

She was going to PM the price with The TiVo web price since "the price had to be wrong", but couldn't enter a price match that big a difference without help.

The store manager came over and looked something up and told me sales were embargoed until Sunday. I did see the screen with the 10/09 sale date.

This really must be an "ask for it" product - box is plain brown cardboard, with nothing other than a TiVo Premiere Elite logo on the sides and a simple label on one side with the TSN and product ID, with the Best Buy delivery and SKU label on the top. It would be hard to find n a shelf, even if you were looking for it.

I'll post a pic in the am. In the meantime, I'll wait until 10 am Sunday, when I can get mine off hold. (each Magnolia store in the area got 2 boxes)


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## brentil

From my v16 thread I think I found a tidbit hinting at the next generation device being the BCM7125 chipset. Link in my sig for the details on what that entails and what makes me believe it's coming.


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## lpwcomp

weaKnees has it up. You can order it starting 10/09, shipping 10/10. Price is $499.99. Use source code 25ELITE for $25 off (expires 10/16). Monthly and LT price are same as Premiere.


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## lgerbarg

brentil said:


> Pausing live TV requires a hard drive along with an decode/encode/decode process while live TV is just a live stream decode. Once you remove the requirement for storing video content directly on storage you can remove the HDD which is the #1 source of failure on TiVo devices. It's also the main source of NVH (noise, vibration, and heat) too. <Begin Speculation> Removing the HDD and replacing it with a large enough Flash storage medium like current cable boxes/PS3/Xbox 360 type devices use you can shrink the device, decrease power needs, increase reliability, as well as increase system performance. To run the main OS you would only need 1~2 GB of storage. If you want to offer VOD downloads maybe a couple more GB.


Pausing live TV does not require to do extra encodes or decodes, the stream is tuned, unencrypted (but not decoded), re-encrypted using device specific encryption and stored to persistent storage. It is then read off the permanent storage, decrypted using the device specific crypto, and then fed to the decoder. So an extra set of crypto functions (but crypto blocks are cheap from an IP, power and die space standpoint), but no extra codec blocks are needed.

A full ATSC signal takes at ~18.3Mbps, which is ~2.25MB/s. So a 4GB flash part would provide enough space for the OS and ~15 minute live buffer.


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## slowbiscuit

moyekj said:


> Personally I would like a cheap, no subscription version of a TiVo extender with no live TV capability or in fact no tuner of any kind (and of course thus no cablecard slot either). i.e. The only purpose is to stream shows from other TiVo units. Maybe an option for "live tv streaming" from a Premiere would be useful to some but that complicates things a lot more (subject to tuner availability) and I don't need/want that either. I never watch live TV anyway. However I don't think there's much money in such a device so doubt there will ever be one, at least not from TiVo.


Exactly. I'm not saying I think a Preview with a Cablecard slot is a bad idea, I'm saying that if you don't want to pay for an extra card then make the Preview work without it and so it just becomes another extender. There's no magic here, but probably also no money in it for either Tivo or the cableCos which is why it won't be that way.


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## sbiller

lpwcomp said:


> weaKnees has it up. You can order it starting 10/09, shipping 10/10. Price is $499.99. Use source code 25ELITE for $25 off (expires 10/16). Monthly and LT price are same as Premiere.


Does weakKnees charge sales tax?


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## brentil

lgerbarg said:


> Pausing live TV does not require to do extra encodes or decodes, the stream is tuned, unencrypted (but not decoded), re-encrypted using device specific encryption and stored to persistent storage. It is then read off the permanent storage, decrypted using the device specific crypto, and then fed to the decoder. So an extra set of crypto functions (but crypto blocks are cheap from an IP, power and die space standpoint), but no extra codec blocks are needed.
> 
> A full ATSC signal takes at ~18.3Mbps, which is ~2.25MB/s. So a 4GB flash part would provide enough space for the OS and ~15 minute live buffer.


Sorry I used the wrong terminology, I'm talking about the file write process as the entire point of my comment was the need for a hard drive and had nothing to do with the signal tuning process. What I meant is it has to be understood by the system (all of the decode process you're talking about), then written to the disk (encoded into a file format like MPEG2 which is DRM encoded), and then read back from the disk (decoding the written file format & DRM data).

We're talking about the TiVo Preview device here. Removing the HDD is the money saver, removes most of the NHV, and greatly decreases the primary failure point on a TiVo device.


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## alyssa

being new to this thread, correct me if I'm wrong on the features of the Preview;
4 tuners
cable/fios only
faster 
no cat5 
2tb hdd
did i miss feature?


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## sbiller

alyssa said:


> being new to this thread, correct me if I'm wrong on the features of the Preview;
> 4 tuners
> cable/fios only
> faster
> no cat5
> 2tb hdd
> did i miss feature?


Premiere Elite specs are here --> http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere-elite/index.html

Preview is the extender box that has not been announced for retail yet.

We don't know if its faster from a processing perspective.

It does have ethernet in addition to MoCA.

~Sam


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## lgerbarg

brentil said:


> Sorry I used the wrong terminology, I'm talking about the file write process as the entire point of my comment was the need for a hard drive and had nothing to do with the signal tuning process. What I meant is it has to be understood by the system (all of the decode process you're talking about), then written to the disk (encoded into a file format like MPEG2 which is DRM encoded), and then read back from the disk (decoding the written file format & DRM data).
> 
> We're talking about the TiVo Preview device here. Removing the HDD is the money saver, removes most of the NHV, and greatly decreases the primary failure point on a TiVo device.


I think I understand what you mean, but when someone uses encode or decode in reference to a video stream it generally refers to the full transform to/from uncompressed frames. When people are just diddling around with rewriting the compressed streams different ways (like the TiVos do) it is generally referred to as muxing (or more specifically in the case of what TiVo is doing, transmuxing).

In any event, I agree the hard drive is a huge cost for all the reasons you cite and more. Between the drive itself, a SATA controller (or a more expensive SoC with an integrated one), an increased PS, more cooling, more complicated case and mounting costs the minimum BOM cost of adding even a small HD to something like this would be ~$40 or so (and that would require economies of scale TiVo may not have). The cost of enough flash to do a little trick play is closer ~$10, and arguably less since they already needed some for their OS image. Not to mention everything you stated about improved reliability...


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## brentil

Yeah I don't know anything at all about video stream lingo, just the computer side of everything.

I've had 3 dead TiVoHDs now and every single one of them was HD related. If I could get rid of them for more reliable Preview devices I'd be ecstatic.


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## jmpage2

It doesn't look like Preview is headed to the home market, at least not this year.


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## jfh3

jmpage2 said:


> It doesn't look like Preview is headed to the home market, at least not this year.


Are you basing this on any information, or just guessing?


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## generaltso

Is it only Best Buy's with Magnolia stores that will have the Elite? My local Best Buy doesn't have a Magnolia, so I guess I'm stuck with mail order?


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## jmpage2

jfh3 said:


> Are you basing this on any information, or just guessing?


The information I am basing it on is that they would have had to get a separate FCC waiver for the Preview, and they did not even apply for it, so, it's not happening.


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## innocentfreak

generaltso said:


> Is it only Best Buy's with Magnolia stores that will have the Elite? My local Best Buy doesn't have a Magnolia, so I guess I'm stuck with mail order?


Yeah it is only Magnolia stores.


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## alyssa

sbiller said:


> Premiere Elite specs are here --> http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere-elite/index.html
> 
> Preview is the extender box that has not been announced for retail yet.
> 
> We don't know if its faster from a processing perspective.
> 
> It does have ethernet in addition to MoCA.
> 
> ~Sam


Thanks for the link to the specs! and clearing up the miss-naming.
purely on a personal note- the selling point is the 4 tuners-but not for $500.


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## DeWitt

jmpage2 said:


> The information I am basing it on is that they would have had to get a separate FCC waiver for the Preview, and they did not even apply for it, so, it's not happening.


If the preview had analog tuners it would not require a waiver....


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## jmpage2

DeWitt said:


> If the preview had analog tuners it would not require a waiver....


I suppose that's possible, but I rather doubt it to be the case. In any event, it has not been announced for retail, so we can all hope it will be eventually but it won't be available at the launch of the new box.


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## brentil

Plus for me there isn't enough content I want to record on 2 analog tuners to keep a TiVo busy, let alone 4 analog tuners.


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## petew

DeWitt said:


> If the preview had analog tuners it would not require a waiver....





jmpage2 said:


> I suppose that's possible, but I rather doubt it to be the case.


If you think of the preview as a premier without the disk drive there's no reason why it couldn't have an analog tuner. The preview only needs a total of 3 tuners, 1 QAM, 1 ATSC and 1 NTSC, the premier has 6 (2 of each) an Elite with OTA and analog support would need 12 hence the waiver to allow it to make do with just 4 QAM tuners.


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## sbiller

brentil said:


> Plus for me there isn't enough content I want to record on 2 analog tuners to keep a TiVo busy, let alone 4 analog tuners.


If TiVo implements soft/hard padding correctly its another reason to want more than 2-tuners. See this post from MegaZone for details --> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/09/23/hard-vs-soft-tivo-padding-not-tacos/


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## aaronwt

sbiller said:


> If TiVo implements soft/hard padding correctly its another reason to want more than 2-tuners. See this post from MegaZone for details --> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/09/23/hard-vs-soft-tivo-padding-not-tacos/


It looks like people have been talking about this for a long time. Is there evidence that they are seriously considering implementing soft padding?


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## sbiller

aaronwt said:


> It looks like people have been talking about this for a long time. Is there evidence that they are seriously considering implementing soft padding?


I can't imagine they would implement a global automatic padding option in the UK without it being somewhat "soft". I read through quite a few posts on the UK Thread and its not clear at this point. It certainly would be a minor discriminator of the TiVo platform over the generic CableCo DVR if it automatically padded programs when available tuners exist.


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## mattack

I guess this is 'hard padding' (I didn't read Megazone's post now, probably have in the past), but I want to pad EVERYTHING at least a minute on each end.. (some shows more, e.g. Real World & GameTrailers.TV can be up to 5 minutes early/late)

Since Tivos do NOT share tuners for abutting recordings on the same channel, I essentially need TWICE as many tuners as shows that are airing at the same time that I need to record.


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## djwilso

mattack said:


> I guess this is 'hard padding' (I didn't read Megazone's post now, probably have in the past), but I want to pad EVERYTHING at least a minute on each end.. (some shows more, e.g. Real World & GameTrailers.TV can be up to 5 minutes early/late)
> 
> Since Tivos do NOT share tuners for abutting recordings on the same channel, I essentially need TWICE as many tuners as shows that are airing at the same time that I need to record.


:up:


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## tlwizard

When the spec sheet talks about VOD over IP, does that mean Amazon and Hulu, or does that mean the Tivo Elite will finally be able to do FiOS VOD?


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## innocentfreak

Got an email from Weaknees offering $25 off the price of the Elite which is good through 10/16.



> Save $25 with source code 25ELITE


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## mumpower

Has anyone announced what the maximum storage capacity is for the Elite yet?


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## innocentfreak

mumpower said:


> Has anyone announced what the maximum storage capacity is for the Elite yet?


TiVodesign at one point tweeted she believes it will support the DVR Expander which means it should be able to support a 3TB drive. Of course this means we will probably have to wait for Comer or Weaknees to come out with an upgrade drive that works.

Most of that groundwork is potentially done with the Premiere, but it is unknown what if any changes there might be that would cause issues.


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## aaronwt

On the TiVo website it shows that the storage is expandable.

http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere-elite/premiere-elite-compare.html#tab

On the TiVo 1TB expander page it says "Compatible with all TiVo Series3™, TiVo HD/HD XL, and Premiere/Premiere XL/Premiere Elite boxes"

http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-accessories/extra-dvr-storage/index.html


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## innocentfreak

Cool so they must have tested it then. I wonder if this means the 2TB limit has been removed, but then I never looked into upgrading my Premiere so maybe they have already been doing 3TB upgrades.


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## aaronwt

Weaknees has Premieres with a 2TB internal drive and a 2TB external drive.

Edit: I see they also have an Elite they will sell with a 2TB external drive for $350 on top of the Elite price.


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## Lenonn

As much as I look forward to the TiVo Premiere Elite, I am going to wait on purchasing it. After hearing about some of the Premiere's problems, I want to see: 

1. If the Elite is stable. If the DVR can't do it's basic function, it's main purpose in life, without crashing, I won't even consider it.

2. Transfer of my series 3's lifetime service to the Elite. I know, not likely to happen, but any money saved would be helpful (especially since it means I can dump one of the Cablecards).

Anyway, I look forward to reading the reviews.


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## Johncv

aaronwt said:


> Weaknees has Premieres with a 2TB internal drive and a 2TB external drive.
> 
> Edit: I see they also have an Elite they will sell with a 2TB external drive for $350 on top of the Elite price.


You do know that a recent research shows that for every hour of TV you view that you lose 20 minutes of your life.


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## aaronwt

Johncv said:


> You do know that a recent research shows that for every hour of TV you view that you lose 20 minutes of your life.




What is it for viewing a computer monitor, 30 minutes?


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## daveak

aaronwt said:


> What is it for viewing a computer monitor, 30 minutes?


It all depends what you are viewing.


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## jrm01

Johncv said:


> You do know that a recent research shows that for every hour of TV you view that you lose 20 minutes of your life.


Those are good figures. Every hour at work I lose an hour of my life.


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## moyekj

Johncv said:


> You do know that a recent research shows that for every hour of TV you view that you lose 20 minutes of your life.


 I should be long dead then...  Maybe all the commercial skipping is buying me some time.


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## innocentfreak

Already died twice here.


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## lew

tlwizard said:


> When the spec sheet talks about VOD over IP, does that mean Amazon and Hulu, or does that mean the Tivo Elite will finally be able to do FiOS VOD?


Same question. Tivo specifically states the product works with Verizon FiOS. Several places have said FiOS is planning on switching to IPTV in order to offer more channels. The elite has MoCA which is exactly the method used by Verizon STB to communicate with the servers, ethernet (wired or not) should work the same.


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## generaltso

I've got a 3TB drive ready to be tested in the Elite as soon as I can get one. The Premiere doesn't recognize the 3TB drive at all, but I'm hoping the Elite does.


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## tlwizard

lew said:


> Same question. Tivo specifically states the product works with Verizon FiOS. Several places have said FiOS is planning on switching to IPTV in order to offer more channels. The elite has MoCA which is exactly the method used by Verizon STB to communicate with the servers, ethernet (wired or not) should work the same.


So are you saying yes it should work? Or are you saying that you're asking the same question?

On my current Premiere XL and Series 3, FiOS VOD doesn't work since the Tivos can't do the two way communication thing or whathaveyou. The Elite having the ability to do this and fully replace any need ever for the FiOS STB would be HUGE!


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## aadam101

tlwizard said:


> So are you saying yes it should work? Or are you saying that you're asking the same question?
> 
> On my current Premiere XL and Series 3, FiOS VOD doesn't work since the Tivos can't do the two way communication thing or whathaveyou. The Elite having the ability to do this and fully replace any need ever for the FiOS STB would be HUGE!


One of the things that frustrates me with Verizon's On Demand service is that you are required to use their router in order to use it. That's a deal breaker for me.


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## aaronwt

aadam101 said:


> One of the things that frustrates me with Verizon's On Demand service is that you are required to use their router in order to use it. That's a deal breaker for me.


You can still use your personal router as the main router(If you are using ethernet like I am) and then run the FiOS router off of yours. When I got FiOS in 2007 I made sure they set me up with Ethernet from the ONT instead of MoCA so I could use my own router.(plus if there is an issue with their router you are not stuck with your internet connection down waiting for a replacement)
When I had a FiOS HD STB I ran the FiOS router off my Dlink router and it was only used for the STB which was only used for VOD.

Hopefully when they offer content on the Xbox 360 later this year, they will also offer the VOD services with it, like Comcast will be. I won't pay the $10 rental for the HDT STB, but since I own several Xbox 360's and there will be no extra cost for me, if they do offer the VOD along with the 26 Linear IP channels I will use it as another source for my VOD viewing to supplement VUDU, Amazon, Netflix, Hulu+, and Zune Marketplace.
I won't be using the 360's to view any of the linear channels since that is what I have my Premieres for. And without the ability to Rec, FF, RW, etc. I see no point in using IP delivery for linear channels.


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## pig_man

generaltso said:


> I've got a 3TB drive ready to be tested in the Elite as soon as I can get one. The Premiere doesn't recognize the 3TB drive at all, but I'm hoping the Elite does.


When you pull the HD, could you post which 2TB drive it is? I'm curious to see if it's an advanced format drive.


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## innocentfreak

pig_man said:


> When you pull the HD, could you post which 2TB drive it is? I'm curious to see if it's an advanced format drive.


If I am reading the post correctly, it sounds like it won't unless they are doing something like using the jumper to run at 512 rather than 4k.



unitron said:


> But they're still using a 512 Byte sector kernel?





brentil said:


> The kernel in this version 16 is 2.6.31 and 4K sectors was added in 2.6.34 so nope, no support it seems.


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## djwilso

Best Buy has now updated the price for the Elite to $499.98.


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## generaltso

pig_man said:


> When you pull the HD, could you post which 2TB drive it is? I'm curious to see if it's an advanced format drive.


Sure, but it might be a little while since I have to get one mail order. I just placed the order with Weaknees. It will probably take a week to get to me from California.


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## danjw1

Best Buy lists the Elite on their website as available today for pickup from their local stores.


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## generaltso

danjw1 said:


> Best Buy lists the Elite on their website as available today for pickup from their local stores.


Only Magnolia stores.


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## wtherrell

Johncv said:


> You do know that a recent research shows that for every hour of TV you view that you lose 20 minutes of your life.


Do you also know that for every hour you spend playing in traffic that you lose 20 years of your life?


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## mumpower

Thanks for the external hard drive information, folks.

This is going to be an exciting couple of weeks as people test the expansion possibilities.


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