# Bad sectors causing GSOD...Clone drive or other option?



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

Have 2 TB upgraded Premiere HD (Samsung F4).

Got the GSOD and tried a few kickstart codes that didn't fix anything (54, 58).

I've put the drive in my computer and run some drive diagnostics...looks like there are bad sectors, but not very many at all (<50 sectors for the entire drive).

I assume they must be in an important spot and thus causing the Tivo to crap out.

Here's my situation/questions:
1) I still have the original 320GB that came with the Tivo, sitting untouched and ready to use to reimage
2) I can get another 2TB drive to use as a clone drive as well.
3) The existing 2TB still functions fine enough to transfer data, so it's not "dead"

- Should I just clone the 2TB drive (thus transferring all good sectors) and let the Tivo try to fix itself? i.e., are the bad sectors to blame for the in-built tivo function's inability to fix itself, or is it likely because the OS is FUBARed?

- If the above wouldn't likely work, I'd like to retain all the shows on the drive. I was wondering if I could image the 320GB onto a new drive, expand/supersize, and then transfer the partitions with the shows from the broken drive to it somehow. Or, conversely, image the 2TB first to the new drive, then take selected OS partitions from the 320GB and plop onto there.

- Since the 320GB is from close to when I got the Tivo 2 years ago, should I at least first put it in the Tivo and allow itself to get the latest/greatest OS updates, THEN use it to image/overwrite?

- The final, least palatable option, would be to just start from scratch with the old 320GB and a new 2TB.


Any advice as to which path to take and/or MFS Tools commands to accomplish this sort of thing would be appreciated.


----------



## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

apspeedbump said:


> Have 2 TB upgraded Premiere HD (Samsung F4).
> 
> Got the GSOD and tried a few kickstart codes that didn't fix anything (54, 58).
> 
> ...


If it can still transfer programs I would suggest that you try to get all of them off there while you can. I think MFS Tools has a program named something like dd_rescue that you can look into. Personally, I wouldn't try to reuse a drive that has bad sectors. A new 2TB AV drive isn't all that expensive.


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

lillevig said:


> If it can still transfer programs I would suggest that you try to get all of them off there while you can. I think MFS Tools has a program named something like dd_rescue that you can look into. Personally, I wouldn't try to reuse a drive that has bad sectors. A new 2TB AV drive isn't all that expensive.


Thanks. Unfortunately, it's stuck in the reboot/GSOD/reboot cycle, so I can't get into any Tivo functionality at all.

Just to clarify, I'm NOT trying to re-use the drive. I either want to copy the contents to a different 2TB and attempt to reload the OS or let the Tivo fix itself on a working drive. This failed 2TB is going back for RMA regardless; I just don't want to lose all the shows on it.


----------



## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

apspeedbump said:


> Just to clarify, I'm NOT trying to re-use the drive. I either want to copy the contents to a different 2TB and attempt to reload the OS or let the Tivo fix itself on a working drive. This failed 2TB is going back for RMA regardless; I just don't want to lose all the shows on it.


If you can clone the failing 2TB drive using something like ddrescue (without many errors), and the new drive then fails to boot in the TiVo, you could try whichever KickStart code switches to the other (presumably older) set of TiVo program partitions. With a bit of luck, that software copy will boot (and eventually update again). I've never used any of the KickStart codes. Be sure that IntelliPark is disabled on the new drive.


----------



## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

apspeedbump said:


> Thanks. Unfortunately, it's stuck in the reboot/GSOD/reboot cycle, so I can't get into any Tivo functionality at all.
> 
> Just to clarify, I'm NOT trying to re-use the drive. I either want to copy the contents to a different 2TB and attempt to reload the OS or let the Tivo fix itself on a working drive. This failed 2TB is going back for RMA regardless; I just don't want to lose all the shows on it.


Ok, I mis-read your point 3 as transferring programs. Just doing a straight copy likely won't work because dd just tries to copy byte for byte. Mr. Matheny seems to have the best course of action.


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

Thank you both.

I will try exactly that.

If that doesn't work, has anyone had/heard of success selectively restoring the OS partitions (1-9 or so)?

In other words:
1) Clone broken 2TB to working 2TB drive
2) Selectively copy, using DD, partitions 1-9 from original 320GB tivo drive to new 2TB

Not sure if OS partitions keep the media/program info there (and thus an overwrite basically nukes all saved program records), or if Tivo actively parses the media partitions to read them. If it's the latter, then the stored media should show up by itself.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

AFAIK that should work, assuming there's no corruption in the MFS partitions or the partition table itself on the sick 2TB. The tyDb files that make up the database of all your recordings etc live in the MFS world.

I don't know if dd will do it, you might need to get tricky with iBored or Hxd to copy partitions selectively.

I'd also get the 320 up to the latest rev OS first, then just copy the active boot, root & kernel partitions. /var and the SQLite partitions would be nice but they can probably heal themselves with a kickstart if necessary.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Have you tried looking at the Samsung with either mfsinfo in WinMFS or a combination of mfsinfo and pdisk on the MFS Live cd?

I'm trying to figure out what kind of sneaky tricks we can pull.


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

So, while I expect this is bad, I don't know how severely bad it bodes for me:

Using the JMFS Supersize disc, the broken 2TB is not recognized as a Tivo drive. The 320GB is recognized fine, which means it's not the disc having issues with my SATA ports or anything else.

Not sure what JMFS is looking at to determine the "Tivo-ness" of a drive, but I figure it has something to do with the partition layout or boot sector. Am I basically SOL at this point?

I was attempting to try the mfsinfo suggestion, but this stopped me in my tracks.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

apspeedbump said:


> So, while I expect this is bad, I don't know how severely bad it bodes for me:
> 
> Using the JMFS Supersize disc, the broken 2TB is not recognized as a Tivo drive. The 320GB is recognized fine, which means it's not the disc having issues with my SATA ports or anything else.
> 
> ...


Wait a minute!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The model commonly referred to as the TiVo HD, the Series 3 HD (which was the second of the Series 3 platform), which is the model TCD652160, came with a 160GB hard drive stock.

The first of the Series 4 platform, the Premiere, came with a 320GB drive.

Unless you're talking about an Australian S3 HD.

Look at the back at the sticker where the power cord plugs in and find the model number that starts with TCD and post it here and let's make sure we all know what we're talking about and that everybody is talking about the same thing before we proceed any further.


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

Sorry for any confusion with the "HD" comment. I definitely have a Premiere (US version). Just the 2 tuner version. Came with a 320GB WD Greenpower drive.


----------



## jmbach (Jan 1, 2009)

If you used JMFS to copy the 320GB drive and expanded it to the 2TB drive then you could do a form of copy and paste from the 320GB to the 2TB and get it working. Not exactly for the faint of heart but doable. And as ggieseke said, if the MFS partitions are not buggered up then you would not lose anything. One check JMFS does is check block zero for tivoness. If you want to PM me we can try a few things to see if we can get JMFS to recognize the drive.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

jmbach said:


> If you used JMFS to copy the 320GB drive and expanded it to the 2TB drive then you could do a form of copy and paste from the 320GB to the 2TB and get it working. Not exactly for the faint of heart but doable. And as ggieseke said, if the MFS partitions are not buggered up then you would not lose anything. One check JMFS does is check block zero for tivoness. If you want to PM me we can try a few things to see if we can get JMFS to recognize the drive.


Would you happen to know why jmfs considers the S3 HD a TiVo but not the original S3?

Is block zero the very first 512 bytes on the hard drive, just prior to the Apple Partition Map partition, and is that where the bootpage resides?


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

jmbach said:


> If you want to PM me we can try a few things to see if we can get JMFS to recognize the drive.


Given my newness to the forum, apparently I need at least 10 posts to be able to PM someone else. Not sure how kosher it would be to just post 3 or 4 more "filler" posts in this thread to get to that count.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

unitron said:


> Would you happen to know why jmfs considers the S3 HD a TiVo but not the original S3?
> 
> Is block zero the very first 512 bytes on the hard drive, just prior to the Apple Partition Map partition, and is that where the bootpage resides?


Yes, it's the first 512 bytes on the drive. The first 2 bytes are the signature, which is always 1492 in hex. The next two bytes indicate the primary and seconday kernel partitions respectively, and it's followed by 128 bytes that give the boot parameters in cleartext. Something like

root=/dev/sda4
dsscon=true runfactorydiag=true brev=0x1060

There's some more garbage like the current name, IP address & MAC address but it doesn't matter. I don't think mfstools or jmfs check much more than the first 4 bytes.

If you have a link to an OLED image of some kind send me a PM and I'll check it out.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

apspeedbump said:


> Given my newness to the forum, apparently I need at least 10 posts to be able to PM someone else. Not sure how kosher it would be to just post 3 or 4 more "filler" posts in this thread to get to that count.


Not kosher at all.

Now post back and tell how that makes you feel.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

Reply to me too.


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

unitron said:


> Not kosher at all.
> 
> Now post back and tell how that makes you feel.


:up:


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

ggieseke said:


> Reply to me too.


Actually, thank you for the technical post above regarding the boot sector. Informative. Maybe I'll use something to dump or hex view the drive in RAW mode to get to see if any of that is corrupted.

Does plugging these drives into a Windows machine muck up the partitions, or is a DOS/Linux boot disc the only way to make sure nothing untowards happens?


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

ggieseke said:


> If you have a link to an OLED image of some kind send me a PM and I'll check it out.


Just to clarify, what's an OLED image? I only know of organic LED and a quick google didn't turn up anything I could relate to this topic.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

apspeedbump said:


> Just to clarify, what's an OLED image? I only know of organic LED and a quick google didn't turn up anything I could relate to this topic.


Go to tivopedia.com and look at the TCD648250, which they might have listed near the bottom on the left as the S3.

The clock on the front is part of an Organic Light Emitting Diode display.

It's the only model TiVo so far to have such a display.


----------



## apspeedbump (Mar 10, 2013)

unitron said:


> Go to tivopedia.com and look at the TCD648250, which they might have listed near the bottom on the left as the S3.
> 
> The clock on the front is part of an Organic Light Emitting Diode display.
> 
> It's the only model TiVo so far to have such a display.


ah, my bad. Since we were referencing the boot sector, I thought OLED image was in reference to some form of HDD imaging (like dd image or acronis image).

No, I'm positive I have a Tivo Premiere, not an S3. The original 320GB was imaged and expanded to a 2TB drive.


----------



## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

apspeedbump said:


> Does plugging these drives into a Windows machine muck up the partitions, or is a DOS/Linux boot disc the only way to make sure nothing untowards happens?


As long as it's XP or later, no. The only real danger is if you start Disk Manager with the drive plugged in. It will see it as a blank drive and want to initialize it. If you tell it no you're fine.

Windows 2000 did that automatically and sometimes people with later versions of Windows tell it yes, resulting in a corrupt block 0.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ggieseke said:


> As long as it's XP or later, no. The only real danger is if you start Disk Manager with the drive plugged in. It will see it as a blank drive and want to initialize it. If you tell it no you're fine.
> 
> Windows 2000 did that automatically and sometimes people with later versions of Windows tell it yes, resulting in a corrupt block 0.


I seem to recall seeing somewhere that XP prior to Service Pack 2 was risky as well.

It's easy enough to test if you have a spare drive with nothing on it you want to save.

Just write zeroes to the first 512 bytes and then hook it to the PC and boot into Windows and see if it assigns a drive letter or not.

And of course you have to beware of GigaByte brand motherboards writing to the other end of the drive.


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

> I seem to recall seeing somewhere that XP prior to Service Pack 2 was risky as well.


Correct per WinMFS requirements. I was *very* concerned about a Windows PC writing to a TiVo drive, so I used MFSLive instead of WinMFS, but found the issue with running XP SP1 and before being the issue.


> And of course you have to beware of GigaByte brand motherboards writing to the other end of the drive.


Please explain?


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> Correct per WinMFS requirements. I was *very* concerned about a Windows PC writing to a TiVo drive, so I used MFSLive instead of WinMFS, but found the issue with running XP SP1 and before being the issue. Please explain?


GigaByte motherboards write a Host Protected Area to the end of what they think is the boot drive.

If the board has both IDE and SATA controllers it starts with the primary master IDE drive. If it finds one it stops there, otherwise it goes down the list through the IDE drives, if any, and then to the first SATA controller, the second, etc.

If no IDE controllers, it starts with the first SATA controller.

It keeps going 'til it finds a drive.

When it finds one it puts an HPA on it.

As long as that drive remains connected and is the first drive found each time the board boots, the rest are safe.

Do you have a GigaByte board?


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

No, I haven't had one for 10 years. It was my first MB.
The purpose of this HPA?? I assume this can't be turned off?


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> No, I haven't had one for 10 years. It was my first MB.
> The purpose of this HPA?? I assume this can't be turned off?


They might not have been doing it that far back.

It's for storing a backup of the BIOS or the operating system or something, and for several years there was no way to turn it off. Supposedly there is now on the latest models, but there have been some reports that it doesn't actually turn off when you set it to that, so who knows?

It can be worked around, but if you aren't currently using that brand, we won't pursue this any further.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> Correct per WinMFS requirements. I was *very* concerned about a Windows PC writing to a TiVo drive, so I used MFSLive instead of WinMFS, but found the issue with running XP SP1 and before being the issue. Please explain?


Are you running XP now?

What version/SP?


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

XP Pro sp3


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> XP Pro sp3


Okay, you can hook up drives with no worry and use WinMFS if you want to.


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

What a difference over the Live version. It almost works by itself.

Has anyone ever reported running a external disk check utility from a PC causing problems to a working TiVo drive?


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> What a difference over the Live version. It almost works by itself.
> 
> Has anyone ever reported running a external disk check utility from a PC causing problems to a working TiVo drive?


You mean like the disk manufacturer's diagnostic software?

Shouldn't be a problem, since it works "below" the software on the drive.

Unless it finds "bad" sectors and marks them as unusable and "aliases" some spare sectors in their place, in which case it would be time to replace the drive soon anyway I'd think.

Of course I'm speaking of diagnostic software on its own boot disk, not 3rd party stuff running under Windows. I don't know enough about them to make any promises.


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

Yes on the manufactures software and/or another utility, but outside of Windows in a DOS environment.
But, I see the issue with repairing or 'hiding' bad sectors.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> Yes on the manufactures software and/or another utility, but outside of Windows in a DOS environment.
> But, I see the issue with repairing or 'hiding' bad sectors.


What you do in a case like that is get another known good drive at least as large and "Xerox" to it from the suspect drive before running the test.

dd_rescue

on the MFS Live cd is good for using for that, you can adjust the parameters so that it only does 512 bytes at a time unless it hits trouble and then drops down to only 1 byte at a time.

Takes forever, of course, but I've saved the otherwise unsaveable before that way.


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

Assuming it has bad sectors, how can coping the disc, no matter what way help? Aren't those bad sectors ignored?


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

He swapped drives himself. The existing drive was " getting noisy" and he threw it away. 
He then told me "he didn't have the patience" to do it any other way.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> Assuming it has bad sectors, how can coping the disc, no matter what way help? Aren't those bad sectors ignored?


They can be "going bad" but read and copied if the program slows down and does a number of retries sometimes, so that you can rescue some or all of the data. Sometimes.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> He swapped drives himself. The existing drive was " getting noisy" and he threw it away.
> He then told me "he didn't have the patience" to do it any other way.


I was wondering if the disk seller had some way to take the TSN and insert it where it needed to go without having the machine itself, but probably what happened was that it was set to start off in Guided Setup, during which it would straighten out the TSN mismatch without it being obvious that it was doing so.


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

"Sometimes". That would be what I would worry about. 

This was a prepared drive, similar to what Weakknees & DVRUpgrade sells. I don't remember the sellers name that was shown in the link he sent.


----------



## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

videobruce said:


> "Sometimes". That would be what I would worry about.
> 
> This was a prepared drive, similar to what Weakknees & DVRUpgrade sells. I don't remember the sellers name that was shown in the link he sent.


Let's put all of your begs in one askit instead of at least two different threads.

Meet me here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=502394


----------



## videobruce (Nov 30, 2012)

The "begs" are already stated here, can we not start another?


----------

