# Closed Captions, S3 and HDTV



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

As someone who only watches TV with "the little words" on, this is of prime importance to me. And if I understand correctly, TiVo has aced the test on this...

TiVo can actually output the captions directly, without any need for the TV or the cablecard to handle any captioning? Correct? And it can even output captions over the HDMI interface?

One of my biggest reasons for not having already jumped to HD is the caption problem. I understand most (all?) HD TVs can not create captions over the HDMI connection, and some of them not at all (ie, any interface). Only if the cable box outputs it. And I can't get TW to tell me if their boxes will output captions. So if TiVo actually captions internally, they have removed my biggest hurdle from going HD. It's enough to make me order one now.

PS: Anyone got any recommendations on a good 42" plasma/LCD HD TV? Price is not critical, but OTOH it's not an unlimited budget either.

PSS: As someone who has an S2 TiVo and a TW DVR (I like my toys), I can tell you there is no comparison. Unless money is the deciding factor, a TiVo beats a TWiVo hands down. And with an S3, it should be an even more painful beating


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## sharding (Feb 11, 2001)

I just tried it, and I am getting captions over HDMI.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

sharding said:


> I just tried it, and I am getting captions over HDMI.


One button press??


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## sharding (Feb 11, 2001)

tase2 said:


> One button press??


No, I did it by going into the CC menu and selecting the CC1 track. I don't know if there's a quicker way. I don't normally use CC; I just tested it since astrohip asked about it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Within a playing program, hit info, scroll down to the CC selection, hit that and it takes you the CC menu. Exiting is two button pushes. Far from what I would call convenient, but not an extreme hassle.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> Within a playing program, hit info, scroll down to the CC selection, hit that and it takes you the CC menu. Exiting is two button pushes. Far from what I would call convenient, but not an extreme hassle.


Dang

For a minute I thought I had the WAF needed for an $800 lay out.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Well, it's *never* going to be ONE button press. On my Hitachi 51-inch RPTV, I push one button, then have to select CC on, CC auto or CC off. That's as convenient as it gets (in my experience). With the S3, it's one button push to pull up the info screen. Scroll down four steps to get to CC, hit select, then you're in the CC option screen. Then you have to hit select to go from none to CC1, then hit select again to back out of that option in the CC menu, then hit the left button to get back to the program. I know it sounds like a lot of steps, but after doing it now for the past two days, you get it down pretty quick.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

With my Comcast/Motorola DVR, I get closed captions over HDMI by powering the box off, thus killing all recording, and selecting closed captions. From then on, I see closed captions on all programs. To turn captions off, I have to repeat the power off process. How's that for not nice.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

retired_guy said:


> With my Comcast/Motorola DVR, I get closed captions over HDLC by powering the box off, thus killing all recording, and selecting closed captions. From then on, I see closed captions on all programs. To turn captions off, I have to repeat the power off process. How's that for not nice.


That indeed is not nice at all.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

Since I have to turn the Comcast DVR off to get the menu to select closed captions, I tend to leave captions on. As a result, the captions often cover the selection options when trying to do such things as Delete, making the selection a blind guessing game. Tends to be good for a little unwanted stomach acid but definitely did make spending that $800 on a Series3 easier.


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## charmedlife (Aug 3, 2006)

Would appreciate some clarification from someone with an S3. Am I correct in understanding the series 3 (unlike series 2) has the ability to caption on a TV or projector that doesn't have a decoder built in?

Does it caption both high def and regular channels?

If the S3 will decode my cable and provide captioning on my projector it would be a big help.

Thanks.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

charmedlife said:


> Would appreciate some clarification from someone with an S3. Am I correct in understanding the series 3 (unlike series 2) has the ability to caption on a TV or projector that doesn't have a decoder built in?
> 
> Does it caption both high def and regular channels?
> 
> ...


Yes, and yes.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

My old Zenith CRT (which unfortunately died this summer) would automatically turn on closed captioning whenever you turned on the MUTE. That was the best implementation I've ever seen.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

MScottC said:


> My old Zenith CRT (which unfortunately died this summer) would automatically turn on closed captioning whenever you turned on the MUTE. That was the best implementation I've ever seen.


We have a 20-inch Panny that does it, but I don't care for that actually. There are times I just want to mute a sporting event for whatever reason, but the captioning is irritating.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> We have a 20-inch Panny that does it, but I don't care for that actually. There are times I just want to mute a sporting event for whatever reason, but the captioning is irritating.


The Zenith I had let you configure it (off, on, EZ mute), I missed it when I got my Sharp.


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## Buran (Mar 29, 2005)

Yes, the Series 3 does have a CC decoder. I require it myself -- also hearing impaired. The captions are not the actual TV decoder's captions as many TVs (mine included) don't display captions for video input via HDMI, so the TiVo overlays them much like DVD subtitles. You can control font and background color.

I set mine to look like conventional captions -- a font I liked, small size, black background.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I understand most (all?) HD TVs can not create captions over the HDMI connection, and some of them not at all (ie, any interface).


My understanding is that Closed Captioning isn't "relevant" to HDMI. HDMI is about video transmission (red green blue, eh?), not television broadcast. The proper means of using Closed Captioning is for the decoding to take place at the tuner, and so what travels down the HDMI pipe is actually Open Captions, not Closed Captions.



> Only if the cable box outputs it.


I believe that is not only the right way to do it, but the only what that is supposed to work, and required by law to work. My cable company disagrees, because they don't know that the law recently changed.



> And I can't get TW to tell me if their boxes will output captions.


They may or may not, and even if they do, it was clear to me that many techs at the cable company didn't even know how to turn it on. (I had to show them -- the box I wanted to use didn't have it working, so I had to get a more expensive box, a DVR from them. I should have fought them on that, as I've since learned.)



> So if TiVo actually captions internally, they have removed my biggest hurdle from going HD. It's enough to make me order one now.


Not taking anything away from TiVo, but as I understand it, the S3 is required to have this capability.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

vman41 said:


> The Zenith I had let you configure it (off, on, EZ mute), I missed it when I got my Sharp.


Yeah, no option to disable on mute for our Panny. Irritating.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Using CC a lot, I like Tivo's methods of handling it. It also seems to work a lot better than then the Moto box.

The biggest irritant I am finding is that many HD programs on INHD, INHD2 and DiscoveryHD are not captioned. I'll have to go look at the relevant statues for closed captioning, as I thought captioning at least in the evenings is required, even for cable and satellite networks.

The other irritant is when sports programming puts the captions over their graphics, which is just plain careless.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Gregor said:


> ...The other irritant is when sports programming puts the captions over their graphics, which is just plain careless.


I'd rather have them there, than over the action.


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## charmedlife (Aug 3, 2006)

Thank you for the information. I have been stuck with a Sony DHG HDD250 DVR because it was the only DVR that I could find that provided captioning. Nothing wrong with it, but it is a single tuner and I like my TIVO interface much better.

The motorola box provided by comcast cable can decode HD channels but not regular channels (gotta think that is illegal, but not sure). I'm sure that works for just about everyone but it doesn't work if you have a projection tv or a flat screen with no tuner.

Glad to have another option.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Does the S3 still "mostly" succeed at captions at 1FF speed? (maybe better?)

i.e. if there are a LOT of captions, they get garbled, but for short periods you can get all of the captions at 1FF speed..


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

mattack said:


> Does the S3 still "mostly" succeed at captions at 1FF speed? (maybe better?)


I've tried then at 1FF with no problems. But they don't work at faster speeds.


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## Aiken (Feb 17, 2003)

mattack said:


> Does the S3 still "mostly" succeed at captions at 1FF speed? (maybe better?)


Way better, actually. An S3 never misses anything because it's decoding and displaying the open captions itself. When an S1/S2 is running at FFx1, which is actually 3x real speed, it has to spit out the closed captions the best it can in the NTSC (or PAL) vertical blank. Unfortunately, CC can only encode 2 characters per frame, so an S1/S2 can run out of room as it tries to fit the closed captions into 1/3 of the frames. The S3s just draw the appropriate open captions on top of each frame. Technically, they could even do it at FF speeds 2 and 3, but it'd be pointless.

It's remarkably effective for skipping boring crap that you still technically need to know.


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## IceStorm (Sep 22, 2006)

Using the cable tuners, I've noticed Digital Closed Captioning lags the audio by several seconds on HD channels. I use it on shows with widely varying volume levels where I still want to know what's going on. I believe my 8300HD stayed well synced

Is there something I'm not doing correctly, or does the Series 3 decoder lag when on an HD channel?


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

For me.. 

the S3 does CC but internally to the S3. I have to turn on CC on the S3 to get it.

Apparently it is NOT outputting the CC data on the HDMI. Because my HP HD TV when I turn the CC on, it does not show.

However. I am running the HDMI out of the S3 and into my Pioneer VSX84 then HDMI out of the receiver and into my TV. So it is possible that my Pioneer is filtering the CC data out of the HDMI.

so for now I will have to use the CC feature that is in the S3 and not in my TV.

I would prefer to use the CC in my TV because in it I can get a Transparent background. On the S3 I can't get a transparent background. 

TexasGrillChef


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I think I mentioned earlier -- I don't believe that HDMI supports Closed Captioning. Closed Captioning is supposed to take place at the tuner.


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## mathwhiz (May 28, 2000)

Several things about CC on the Series 3 that I have noticed that I would like to see fixed are:

1) Somehow enable a 1 button push to enable/disable the CCing. Something like accessing the CC icon on the channel banner and pressing "enter" or something. The main goal is to be able to toggle CC on/off without leaving the show.

2) When accessing the full CC menu from the channel banner on a recorded show, once I'm done changing the CC options, I should be taken back to the show and resume playing, instead of the Now Playing list.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

mathwhiz said:


> Several things about CC on the Series 3 that I have noticed that I would like to see fixed are:


Good suggestions, plus transparent background color should be an option.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

mathwhiz said:


> Several things about CC on the Series 3 that I have noticed that I would like to see fixed are:
> 
> 1) Somehow enable a 1 button push to enable/disable the CCing. Something like accessing the CC icon on the channel banner and pressing "enter" or something. The main goal is to be able to toggle CC on/off without leaving the show.
> 
> 2) When accessing the full CC menu from the channel banner on a recorded show, once I'm done changing the CC options, I should be taken back to the show and resume playing, instead of the Now Playing list.


If you're in a "live" program, it does take you back to that program. But, you're right, it should take you back to the recorded program you're watching. It doesn't take me back to Now Playing list, but it does take me back to that program in Now Playing, then all I have to do is press enter or play to resume playback. (I think - I double check when I get home from work)


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## Buran (Mar 29, 2005)

IceStorm said:


> Using the cable tuners, I've noticed Digital Closed Captioning lags the audio by several seconds on HD channels.


Sounds like a channel glitch. I watched Jeopardy in HD yesterday and Nature on the local PBS station's HD version the other day, and the captions were fine on both.

I have over the years seen laggy captions many times on standard shows, including before I got a TiVo (and using the built-in decoder in my older TV).

If you see this happening consistently with one show or channel, write to them and let them know. I once wrote to the History Channel telling them that their captions were totally missing over the last few days and they responded thanking me and everyone else who had written in -- it was an equipment failure.


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## Buran (Mar 29, 2005)

vman41 said:


> Good suggestions, plus transparent background color should be an option.


Not recommended. They can get really hard to read in a lot of situations without a background to differentiate them from the picture. It's one reason why many DVD subtitles drive me nuts -- white captions with no background. Then imagine these placed against a light picture!


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## mathwhiz (May 28, 2000)

I think where it takes you back when watching a recorded program, depends on where you started playing it from. If you press Play from the list - it takes you back to the list - on the program you were watching, so you can just hit Play. If you start the program from within the program details section of Now Playing, then it takes you back there.


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## AVSman (Mar 17, 2006)

mathwhiz said:


> Several things about CC on the Series 3 that I have noticed that I would like to see fixed are:
> 
> 1) Somehow enable a 1 button push to enable/disable the CCing. Something like accessing the CC icon on the channel banner and pressing "enter" or something. The main goal is to be able to toggle CC on/off without leaving the show.


Yes, yes, yes! This would be great.


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## snathanb (Sep 13, 2006)

retired_guy said:


> With my Comcast/Motorola DVR, I get closed captions over HDLC by powering the box off, thus killing all recording, and selecting closed captions..


CC over HDLC, eh? That's a nifty trick.


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## Aiken (Feb 17, 2003)

Buran said:


> Not recommended. They can get really hard to read in a lot of situations without a background to differentiate them from the picture. It's one reason why many DVD subtitles drive me nuts -- white captions with no background. Then imagine these placed against a light picture!


I think he meant semitransparent. 50% transparent black is an excellent compromise between allowing the text to stand out and not totally obscuring what's behind the letters.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

Is the S3 supposed to pass thru CC on SD channel, output on component set to Native so that the TV receives 480i? That happens with my HR10 but apparently not with the S3. My SD lower numbered channels are analog, as I have not be able to get ADS to work on the S3 even though my cable box is ADS.

I know CC is in the signal because I can turn on CC in the S3 and it shows up. But I'd rather use the TV's CC decoder because the font is larger and more legible. I haven't been able to increase the font size with the S3's decoder even when I set Text size to Large.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

DVRs and DVD players/recorders pass closed captions through on A/V outputs, not component outputs. Barring that, CC decoding should be done by the DVR or DVD player/recorder, and passed through as open captions via component.


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

bicker said:


> DVRs and DVD players/recorders pass closed captions through on A/V outputs, not component outputs. Barring that, CC decoding should be done by the DVR or DVD player/recorder, and passed through as open captions via component.


BS. As I stated, CC is passed thru on component by the HR10, a TiVo DirecTV DVR, but apparently not on the S3.

Does anyone know how to make the S3's CC display a larger text font?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I'm just telling you what I know. Sorry if it doesn't work out for you.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

hiker said:


> ...Does anyone know how to make the S3's CC display a larger text font?


I've been tackling that issue, too. I get on my treadmill in the morning and watch recorded shows while exercising, and it's so far from my TV, that the standard size CCs aren't usually big enough (even with a 51-inch TV). And I also notice that CC style varies from station to station, even if it's set to one style in the CC options. I haven't yet figured out why the S3 can't enlarge the captions. Frustrating.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

mathwhiz said:


> Several things about CC on the Series 3 that I have noticed that I would like to see fixed are:
> 
> 1) Somehow enable a 1 button push to enable/disable the CCing. Something like accessing the CC icon on the channel banner and pressing "enter" or something. The main goal is to be able to toggle CC on/off without leaving the show.





AVSman said:


> Yes, yes, yes! This would be great.


I'll add one more yes to that

Yes Yes Yes Yes


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## GT1Boy (Mar 23, 2004)

Closed Captions play a big part in WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) for the Series 3. It's actually too late since I already purchased one on launch day  , but I'm trying to fix a CC display issue and would appreciate any advice. 

My wife is hearing impaired and typically watches all television with CC on (unless the captions lag too far behind). I recently replaced a Series 2 (Pioneer DVR-810) connected via component to our HDTV with a Series 3 connected via HDMI. With the Series 2 she was able to turn on the captions on the TV and while 1FF'ing the captions would still be displayed. With the Series 3 she is unable to do so. It appears, with the Series 3 doing the CC decoding instead of the TV, that whenever the channel banner or status bar is displayed, the Series 3 cannot simultanously display captions.

From what I've read in this thread, I guess I could connect the Series 3 via s-video (since the S3 component doesn't pass the CC info onto the TV) and have my wife switch to that input and turn on CC on the TV itself if she is watching a show that she would like to have captions and 1FF. (She really doesn't care about picture/sound quality for her soap anyway.) I will also send a request to TiVo asking if the software could be updated to allow the S3 captions and channel banner or status bar to be simultaneously displayed so I would not need the s-video workaround. Anyone have a better solution for me? Thanks.


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## GT1Boy (Mar 23, 2004)

I don't know if it was due to the TiVo rebooting itself after the 8.01b update, but the TiVo decoded captions are now being displayed while playing at 1FF. Now if they would just not turn off whenever the status or info bar are displayed...


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

Anyone noticed that Tivo seems to lose closed captions on some recorded shows after the 1st commercial break?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Gregor said:


> Anyone noticed that Tivo seems to lose closed captions on some recorded shows after the 1st commercial break?


Nope.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I've noticed that, but I don't think it is reliable. More specifically, I've noted at least one instance where there were Closed Captions before the first commercial break, and then they were lost after that. It happened with the two-hour Battlestar Galactica premiere last week. I didn't have the same problem with that program on my S2.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

It doesn't happen all the time. I was watching something on Biography and it happened, but the HD recording from Nascar last night is fine.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bicker said:


> ...It happened with the two-hour Battlestar Galactica premiere last week.....


I watched that same show, and the CCs were fine through its entirety.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

So it isn't even consistent from S3 to S3.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

GT1Boy said:


> Closed Captions play a big part in WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) for the Series 3. It's actually too late since I already purchased one on launch day  , but I'm trying to fix a CC display issue and would appreciate any advice.
> 
> My wife is hearing impaired and typically watches all television with CC on (unless the captions lag too far behind). I recently replaced a Series 2 (Pioneer DVR-810) connected via component to our HDTV with a Series 3 connected via HDMI. With the Series 2 she was able to turn on the captions on the TV and while 1FF'ing the captions would still be displayed. With the Series 3 she is unable to do so. It appears, with the Series 3 doing the CC decoding instead of the TV, that whenever the channel banner or status bar is displayed, the Series 3 cannot simultanously display captions.
> 
> From what I've read in this thread, I guess I could connect the Series 3 via s-video (since the S3 component doesn't pass the CC info onto the TV) and have my wife switch to that input and turn on CC on the TV itself if she is watching a show that she would like to have captions and 1FF. (She really doesn't care about picture/sound quality for her soap anyway.) I will also send a request to TiVo asking if the software could be updated to allow the S3 captions and channel banner or status bar to be simultaneously displayed so I would not need the s-video workaround. Anyone have a better solution for me? Thanks.


Just in case you haven't already noticed: If you click the Clear button (lower left on the remote), the channel banner or status bar disappear and the closed captions appear. I got tired of waiting for the status bar to disappear every time I switched to 1xFF and finally tried that button.


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## Georgia Guy (Feb 21, 2003)

tase2 said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mathwhiz
> Several things about CC on the Series 3 that I have noticed that I would like to see fixed are:
> 
> ...


A button on the Tivo remote would be the perfect solution.

While not a perfect solution, it would be probably be easy to program a macro on a learning remote, like the MX500, Harmony, etc, that achieves the desired result without too much hassle. It would still have to leave the program, but a macro could be programmed to make it a one button operation. It would pause the show, go to info, select whatever it takes to turn on the cc, then return to the show and unpause. I haven't tried it because my S3 isn't due to arrive until the 17th, but I plan on giving it a go.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Georgia Guy said:


> A button on the Tivo remote would be the perfect solution.
> 
> While not a perfect solution, it would be probably be easy to program a macro on a learning remote, like the MX500, Harmony, etc, that achieves the desired result without too much hassle. It would still have to leave the program, but a macro could be programmed to make it a one button operation. It would pause the show, go to info, select whatever it takes to turn on the cc, then return to the show and unpause. I haven't tried it because my S3 isn't due to arrive until the 17th, but I plan on giving it a go.


The challenge with that however is as follows -- you hit info, then you have to scroll down BUT, depending on whether you are watching live TV or a recorded program, the number of scrolls down is different (either two or three), then you select CC, then, within that screen you must scroll down once, then hit the right directional button, then hit select three times to get back to your program.


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## Georgia Guy (Feb 21, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> The challenge with that however is as follows -- you hit info, then you have to scroll down BUT, depending on whether you are watching live TV or a recorded program, the number of scrolls down is different (either two or three), then you select CC, then, within that screen you must scroll down once, then hit the right directional button, then hit select three times to get back to your program.


So the challenge is selecting the proper amount of scrolls. All the other moves appear straightforward. I'll have a look at it when I get my S3 installed and set up. On other macros I have set up, I've been able to workaround that sort of thing by scrolling the opposite direction, or by selecting a number, or whatever. Worst case would be to set up two different macros, one for each situation, and then trying to remember which is which.
It will be interesting to attempt, but until Tivo comes thru with an easier method, the macros will have to suffice. Some shows I simply cannot follow without cc, especially British, Irish, and Valley Girl dialects.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Georgia Guy said:


> So the challenge is selecting the proper amount of scrolls. All the other moves appear straightforward. I'll have a look at it when I get my S3 installed and set up. On other macros I have set up, I've been able to workaround that sort of thing by scrolling the opposite direction, or by selecting a number, or whatever. Worst case would be to set up two different macros, one for each situation, and then trying to remember which is which.
> It will be interesting to attempt, but until Tivo comes thru with an easier method, the macros will have to suffice. Some shows I simply cannot follow without cc, especially British, Irish, and Valley Girl dialects.


Yes, I think that would be the biggest challenge. But I'm with you, and I am a bit hearing impaired, so I watch a lot of shows (almost everything except sports) with closed captioning on. I have a Harmony 659, so if you find a way to do it with a Harmony, I'm all ears...


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

You should be able to scroll down the max needed, I think it's four. If less than four down arrows are needed, it won't matter since CC is the last item and it does not wrap around to the top if extra down arrows are pressed.


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## tase2 (Sep 27, 2004)

Obviously I do not have the S3 (yet), but the scenario with the HR10-250 is 
Hit the Tivo button
arrive at DIRECT Central 
then a 3 scroll down to
Messages & Setup
Click on that (and the problems begin)
It takes you to the last screen you were in the last time you left that screen.
So therefore there is no way to set the number and/or directions of screens.


Hopefully the S3 is not that bad.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> If you're in a "live" program, it does take you back to that program. But, you're right, it should take you back to the recorded program you're watching. It doesn't take me back to Now Playing list, but it does take me back to that program in Now Playing, then all I have to do is press enter or play to resume playback. (I think - I double check when I get home from work)


I don't know if this works on the Series 3, but on my HD DirecTV box, if I hit EXIT on any menu, I am returned to either LIVE TV or the program I was viewing from the Now Playing List, depending on where I started from.

If it works, this would be the perfect solution: Watch a show (live or from NPL), select INFO, scroll to CC, press select, change the options, press EXIT and you should be back at your show. Hope it works for you!

(If it does, can someone please ask TiVo to add the CC shortcut to the Info banner on the DirecTV HD boxes? Please? Thanks!)


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## hiker (Nov 29, 2001)

tase2 said:


> Obviously I do not have the S3 (yet), but the scenario with the HR10-250 is
> Hit the Tivo button
> arrive at DIRECT Central
> then a 3 scroll down to
> ...





drew2k said:


> ...
> If it works, this would be the perfect solution: Watch a show (live or from NPL), select INFO, scroll to CC, press select, change the options, press EXIT and you should be back at your show.
> ...


Yes, it is fairly easy on the S3, much more difficult on the HR10.


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## Georgia Guy (Feb 21, 2003)

hiker said:


> You should be able to scroll down the max needed, I think it's four. If less than four down arrows are needed, it won't matter since CC is the last item and it does not wrap around to the top if extra down arrows are pressed.


There you go. Sounds like it should not be a big problem for a macro. But, since I haven't seen an S3 yet, I'll have to wait and see what can be done with a macro.

Heck, even if I have to go thru a bunch of actual button-presses, it will be SO much better than my Moto6412, which a previous poster described....you have to actually SHUT OFF the box, then access menu screens, then power back up. Almost needless to say, I never use cc on the Moto DVR.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

I need to follow-up on my post about using EXIT: This apparently no longer works on the 6.3 software revision, which I just received this morning. 

It's supposed to work like this:


HR10-250 Instruction Manual said:


> EXIT clears all menus and goes to the last channel or recorded program you were watching. If you press it while you are watching a program, it clears things that aren't part of the program (like the channel banner and status bar).


I'm wondering if there's a reason TiVo removed it, and if it's not in 6.3, it may not be in 7.x on the Series 3 models?


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## Zookie (Oct 27, 2006)

astrohip said:


> As someone who only watches TV with "the little words" on, this is of prime importance to me. And if I understand correctly, TiVo has aced the test on this... 8< snipped >8


Thanks for starting this thread. Before I read this, I wasn't sure if S3 would actually have CC decoder built-in or not. After reading this thread, it actually does have the decoder.

That'll motivate me to get Tivo HD once the price drops. Really hate TWC's DVR HD Digital Box (SA). I'm really spoiled by S2 Tivo.

What I noticed with this particular cable box with HD show & captioning is that on the "HD public network" (i.e. ABC, NBC, et al), the captioning lags behind a few seconds which is very annoying for me. But on other network like Discovery HD, it is in almost perfect sync. On non-HD programs, it is the same as "normal captioning". If I'm experiencing captioning lag in HD programs, I usually turn "Digital Captioning" off which makes Analog captioning take over. Most of the time that solves the problem. However I prefer digital captioning due to text customization (size/color/et al). The analog CC mode spreads out the CC (i.e. M Y N A M E I S J O H N D O E ) which is annoying.

I don't think I've ever see captioning on INHD & 2, HDNet & Movie, ESPN-HD et al that I already have asked TWC to remove the VIP HD Pak because I didn't want to shell out extra $$ for something that isn't normally captioned. However I do get those broadcast HD networks plus Discovery HD, TNT HD & HD Movie on Demand which is part of normal digital package. (DigiPic 1000).

I'm sure S3 will make it much easier for me and also better captioning as well. Will be purchasing an Internal HDTV antenna for those HD-public networks since S3 does have the outlet for this purpose which TWC's cable box doesn't have. (I rarely watch "Live TV") Also I believe captioning would be much better thru this method, for HD public networks, than having it relayed thru the cable company which may make the captioning lag in some cases.

Thank you all for testing, sharing, experimenting, et al.. it makes it so much easier for people like me as am hearing-impaired as well.

Have great weekend!
-Zookie
42" Philips Plasma with Pixel Plus
S2 Tivo
TWC/SA HD DVR


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

> I don't think I've ever see captioning on INHD & 2, HDNet & Movie, ESPN-HD et al that I already have asked TWC to remove the VIP HD Pak because I didn't want to shell out extra $$ for something that isn't normally captioned. However I do get those broadcast HD networks plus Discovery HD, TNT HD & HD Movie on Demand which is part of normal digital package. (DigiPic 1000).


ESPN HD has some captioning. I've never seen it on INHD, INHD2, or DiscoveryHD. The discovery folks wrote back and said "we're working on it" but it's hard to believe that as the SD versions of their programs are usually captioned. What's up with that?


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Zookie said:


> Thanks for starting this thread. Before I read this, I wasn't sure if S3 would actually have CC decoder built-in or not. After reading this thread, it actually does have the decoder.
> 
> That'll motivate me to get Tivo HD once the price drops. Really hate TWC's DVR HD Digital Box (SA). I'm really spoiled by S2 Tivo.


You're welcome! I've learned quite a bit since I posted my original question. For example, it seems most TVs do NOT support captions over HDMI or component. My Sony has captions, but when the feed is HDMI it will NOT display them. This makes absolutely no sense, and should probably be illegal within FCC guidelines. I still haven't bought my S3 yet (soon!), but am using a TW-Houston SA8300HD. It has a caption function, so I use it instead of the TVs captions. It is mostly ok, but there are some problems. The captions on FOX-HD are always behind 3-4 seconds; makes it unwatchable. I have to watch the SD feed instead. And every once in a while a show will have caption problems; garbled, lagging, etc. It seems to be random as far as network & show. I get this once a week or so, out of 20+ shows. On the S2, it never happened. But I can't attest as to whether it is the TW-DVR, or the HD feed (I watch HD almost exclusively if possible).



Gregor said:


> ESPN HD has some captioning. I've never seen it on INHD, INHD2, or DiscoveryHD. The discovery folks wrote back and said "we're working on it" but it's hard to believe that as the SD versions of their programs are usually captioned. What's up with that?


DiscoveryHD is almost 100% captioned on TW Houston, which seems to contradict what they told you. Very few shows aren't captioned on it. And the HD is *incredible* on Disc-HD. We find ourselves watching shows we (almost) don't have an interest in, just because they are so amazing!

However, INHD, INHD2, UniversalHD and a couple others are not captioned at all. VERY very upsetting. Defeats the entire purpose of requiring captions on broadcasts. Wish the FCC would quit granting exemptions.

Stuart

PS: I've noticed a few shows with captions like you mentioned, "T H I S I S A C A P T I O N". Drives me nuts, takes twice as long to read, have no idea why some shows display like that, and others don't.

PSS: A general comment on TiVos versus cable DVRs. No comparison, the TiVo wins hands down. I still have the S2 hooked up, and use it for SD feeds. I use the SA8300HD for HD feeds. It is so much easier to watch TV using the S2 than the 8300. The only reason I don't have an S3 yet is I am new to HD, having just bought my HDTV and signed up for HD feeds. I wanted to make sure I knew what it was like, and that I wanted it, before committing to the S3. I will prolly pick one up in the next couple weeks from a BB or CC.


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## solsurfer (Mar 17, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Well, it's *never* going to be ONE button press. On my Hitachi 51-inch RPTV, I push one button, then have to select CC on, CC auto or CC off. That's as convenient as it gets (in my experience). With the S3, it's one button push to pull up the info screen. Scroll down four steps to get to CC, hit select, then you're in the CC option screen. Then you have to hit select to go from none to CC1, then hit select again to back out of that option in the CC menu, then hit the left button to get back to the program. I know it sounds like a lot of steps, but after doing it now for the past two days, you get it down pretty quick.


Just wanted to confirm - this doesn't work with the HR10-250, right?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

The biggest problem, for us, with the Closed Captions on the S3, was that there was no way to make the background transparent (as we can with the Motorola 34xx). That really degrades our enjoyment of watching programs, since often the Closed Captions would completely blot out the faces of the characters.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

solsurfer said:


> Just wanted to confirm - this doesn't work with the HR10-250, right?


I couldn't help you there...don't have (never had) the HR10-250. Maybe someone else out there?


bicker said:


> The biggest problem, for us, with the Closed Captions on the S3, was that there was no way to make the background transparent (as we can with the Motorola 34xx). That really degrades our enjoyment of watching programs, since often the Closed Captions would completely blot out the faces of the characters.


You can see that in two ways -- yes, the black box background blocks out sections of the screen. BUT it's tougher to read the captions with the clear background.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

True. The Motorola DVRs provide the option: transparent, translucent, opaque (and of course the latter two with various options for what color the background is). That way, everyone can have things the way they like it. We have it set up for shadows around the letters, so we can very clearly read the captions, and still have minimal obscuring of the video.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bicker said:


> True. The Motorola DVRs provide the option: transparent, translucent, opaque (and of course the latter two with various options for what color the background is). That way, everyone can have things the way they like it. We have it set up for shadows around the letters, so we can very clearly read the captions, and still have minimal obscuring of the video.


Oooh...that sounds nifty. As a slightly hearing-impaired person (read = getting older  ) I rely on captioning a lot.


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