# UPS for TiVo



## BrennanU (Dec 31, 2006)

Hello all, I have been a TiVo subscriber for a few years now and have had pretty bad luck with TiVos. I have had multiple Series 2s, and at least three different TiVo HDs all since December of 2006. Problems have ranged from HDDs going bad to HDMI ports breaking, and more that I cannot remember.

With a recent exchange I have been wondering if this is a usual thing or if there is something that I am doing wrong. One thought that I have had is in regards to power quality. I have not noticed any major problems with power conditions, however I am wondering if this could still be my problem.

What are everyones thoughts? Should I look at a UPS or do I just have bad luck. I have been looking at the APC BX1000G (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/APC+-+1...stem/9952013.p?id=1218200061225&skuId=9952013). 
Would this be a good option if you would recommend a UPS?

Thanks,
Brennan


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

BrennanU said:


> Hello all, I have been a TiVo subscriber for a few years now and have had pretty bad luck with TiVos. I have had multiple Series 2s, and at least three different TiVo HDs all since December of 2006. Problems have ranged from HDDs going bad to HDMI ports breaking, and more that I cannot remember.
> 
> With a recent exchange I have been wondering if this is a usual thing or if there is something that I am doing wrong. One thought that I have had is in regards to power quality. I have not noticed any major problems with power conditions, however I am wondering if this could still be my problem.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure that one would be overkill. You could likely use a APC backups350 to handle the occasional spike or brown out and still have 30 minutes to an hour of battery life.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

APC UPS Selector application - configure by device


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> APC UPS Selector application - configure by device


That's a great tool. hadn't seen it before.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Just ran the config tool. Man it's over compensating for something.  Minumum config for my headless Dell XPS 3Ghz P4 was 500.00 dollars for a 10 minute run. Pretty sure I'm getting that with the 350va I'm using and it was 40 bucks.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

I've been using the APC-750 for a year now and love it. It seems to handle 45 minutes of outages very well.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Get a UPS. PQ is most often something you cannot see. You can have transients from the grid, poor internal connections, and other issues going on that you cannot notice with your eyes. But, they can still cause issue with electronics, whether instantaneously or over time. Relatively cheap insurance.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> Pretty sure that one would be overkill. You could likely use a APC backups350 to handle the occasional spike or brown out and still have 30 minutes to an hour of battery life.


And pay a lot less for it at Amazon, with free shipping if you're willing to wait a week or so.
http://www.amazon.com/APC-Back-UPS-...5SWW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1294248816&sr=8-5
This unit is plenty for a TiVo, Tuning Adapter, and probably a DVD player. (But not your TV). But it will provide surge protection for a lot more than what it backs up.


jrtroo said:


> Get a UPS. PQ is most often something you cannot see. You can have transients from the grid, poor internal connections, and other issues going on that you cannot notice with your eyes. But, they can still cause issue with electronics, whether instantaneously or over time. Relatively cheap insurance.


The transients are handled by the surge protection in the UPS, of course.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dlfl said:


> And pay a lot less for it at Amazon, with free shipping if you're willing to wait a week or so.
> http://www.amazon.com/APC-Back-UPS-...5SWW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1294248816&sr=8-5
> This unit is plenty for a TiVo, Tuning Adapter, and probably a DVD player. (But not your TV). But it will provide surge protection for a lot more than what it backs up.
> 
> The transients are handled by the surge protection in the UPS, of course.


+1 on Amazon. I bought the last three I ordered from there.


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## BrennanU (Dec 31, 2006)

Thanks for your input everyone. Just to clarify, any UPS will provide pretty much the same amount of protection, it is just the length of backup time that varies? I would much prefer to go with a cheaper unit, I was just looking on the BestBuy site, and that was the cheapest model that said "automatic voltage regulation". If this is the case I will look into the one that was suggested on Amazon.

Thanks,
Brennan


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

BrennanU said:


> Thanks for your input everyone. Just to clarify, any UPS will provide pretty much the same amount of protection, it is just the length of backup time that varies? I would much prefer to go with a cheaper unit, I was just looking on the BestBuy site, and that was the cheapest model that said "automatic voltage regulation". If this is the case I will look into the one that was suggested on Amazon.
> 
> Thanks,
> Brennan


The only exception is if the device draws more power than the battery can deliver. Most, if not all UPS's offer surge protection, but I'd steer towards an APC unit if I were you.


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## JTYoung1 (Aug 13, 2006)

I've had good luck with APC and Belkin UPS devices (not sure if Belkin even makes them any more).
1000VA is overkill for what you will be using it for, but on the plus side in a long outage you'd probably be able to go for a good hour before losing power.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Some UPS units use battery power for voltage issues, then when your battery is weak the unit shuts down. Get a unit that provides voltage regulation without using or effecting the battery. A sine wave output is a good idea, but not required for everything. Some cheaper units have nothing more than a square wave, at least get one that offers a stepped approximation of a sine wave. These are what I consider to be minimum requirements, IMHO.

I am also of the mind that anything with a hard drive should be on a UPS - voltage sags and brief blinks in power can be harmful to longevity and data. Sags and blinks (especially frequent close ones, like during wind and/ or storms) are especially harmful, and these occur more often than surges.

Protect your drives and you protect your data, which is the real goal.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

daveak said:


> I am also of the mind that anything with a hard drive should be on a UPS - voltage sags and brief blinks in power can be harmful to longevity and data. Sags and blinks (especially frequent close ones, like during wind and/ or storms) are especially harmful, and these occur more often than surges.
> 
> Protect your drives and you protect your data, which is the real goal.


Absolutely! +1.

Never plug a Tivo (or computer) directly into the wall ...


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

BrennanU said:


> Just to clarify, any UPS will provide pretty much the same amount of protection, it is just the length of backup time that varies?


 Post the UPS manufacturer spec number that claims any protection? And good luck. A majority will recite popular and mythical protection claims only because others told them it must be so. One even said to not plug a Tivo directly into the wall. Meanwhile, when the UPS is not in battery backup mode, the Tivo connects directly to the wall via that UPS. Only a relay exists between the Tivo and wall receptacle.

When AC power is lost, a UPS relay will slowly (milliseconds) switch from AC mains to battery. No problem. The Tivo, like all electronics will operate for a long time (tens of milliseconds) without power. Then UPS power will be some of the 'dirtiest' a Tivo will ever see. Those 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Even that 270 volts spike is ideal power to all electronics - including Tivo.

So where is this power cleaning? Only exists in hearsay. Others who recommend without numbers are simply reciting popular urban myths.

UPS takes milliseconds to respond. Destructive surges are done in microseconds. Where is the protection? How does it protect when even manufacturer specs make no such claim? It doesn't. Please post that number that claims power protection. A UPS has only one function. To provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. UPS will do nothing for transients that would explain your failures.

Meanwhile, informed homeowners spend tens of times less money for a solution that actually does respond in microseconds. A solution that has been standard for over 100 years in any facility that can never suffer damage. But is not promoted by lies, advertising, and the resulting myths.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> ..........
> Meanwhile, informed homeowners spend tens of times less money for a solution that actually does respond in microseconds. A solution that has been standard for over 100 years in any facility that can never suffer damage. But is not promoted by lies, advertising, and the resulting myths.


LOL! Apparently you wanted the rest of us to remain uninformed about this mysterious cheaper-but-better solution.

This is a smear job on inexpensive UPS models such as the APC Back UPS line. It contains some truth but not the whole truth.

Surge protection and waveform cleaning are two different things. Surge protection can be implemented by passive circuit elements (i.e., filters involving capacitors and inductors) which can be in place whether the waveform is the crude stepped (i.e., square) waveform furnished by Back UPS models or the AC sine wave from the wall socket. APC specifies surge protection on all Back UPS outlets and I believe them.

The crude stepped waveform provided as back up power may not seem ideal, and more expensive APC models ("smart" models) provide something close to the pure sine wave. However, APC sells thousands (if not millions) of the Back UPS models and they work fine on the vast majority of applications, or they would not be able to stay in business as long as they have and sell as many units as they have.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dlfl said:


> LOL! Apparently you wanted the rest of us to remain uninformed about this mysterious cheaper-but-better solution.
> 
> This is a smear job on inexpensive UPS models such as the APC Back UPS line. It contains some truth but not the whole truth.
> 
> ...


I would add, that if you can notice the power issue an APC backup is going to catch it. Anything that happens faster than you can see is likely not going to be a critical issue. So for brownouts, surges, and power loss the APC is fine.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> Surge protection and waveform cleaning are two different things. Surge protection can be implemented by passive circuit elements (i.e., filters involving capacitors and inductors) which can be in place whether the waveform is the crude stepped (i.e., square) waveform furnished by Back UPS models or the AC sine wave from the wall socket. APC specifies surge protection on all Back UPS outlets and I believe them.


 Those filters, etc are already inside all appliances. And done better. Why is a UPS output so dirty? Because appliance filters make 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant.

All appliances already contain superior filters. Be concerned of a rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that can overwhelm superior 'filters'. And is not stopped by any APC ups. No problem. Since you know otherwise, you have posted APC's numeric specs that says otherwise. Apparently "you wanted the rest of us to remain uninformed about this mysterious" miracle solution found inside that UPS. You did not post any specification numbers.

Reality. Even APC does not claim what you have posted. A first indication of a scam - no numbers. Subjective myths about near zero filters that will somehow stop surges. Where are those APC spec numbers that I constantly request - and are never provided? Hearsay is creates junk science.

UPS has only one function. To provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power when AC voltage causes lights to dim below 50%. That UPS does nothing else as demonstrated by dlfl's numbers. The UPS is only for temporary power during blackouts. It does not claim to that surge protection. Those capacitor, inductor, filters or whateven he thinks are inside a UPS are instead inside every electornic appliance. And done better.

Why do all appliances including Tivo make the dirtiest power from a UPS irrelevant? Because superior protection already exists inside that Tivo. Informed homeowners spend tens of times less money for a solution that actually does respond in microseconds. A solution that has been standard for over 100 years in any facility that can never suffer damage. And that should be known and obvious to anyone making recommendations here.

Those who post without making bogus claims can ask to learn. Those who are educated only by advertising need not bother. Those educated only by hearsay know a miracle filter inside a UPS will stop destructive surges. But cannot clean 'dirtiest' power created by that UPS. 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts. Somehow filters inside a UPS cannot even cure that?

Tivo and all other electronics already have superior filters. Someone would recommend $100 for a UPS with near zero filters? Call that protection? Where is that APC numeric spec? The number is 'near zero'. Ineffective. Or how to get the naive to make subjective and bogus recommendations.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Sure, some UPS units you are talking about fit your description rather well. And quite frankly, most consumer grade products can handle the 'dirty' power provided by the cheaper UPS units just fine - at least for the short term. And do not forget, there are many 'levels' of UPS protection available and in this market you often do get what you are willing to pay for.

Standby type UPS units, which best fit your description, are the cheapest and most widely available - in places such as Best Buy and WalMart. With this type of UPS you are most likely getting wall power unless there is an issue with the power and then you are getting a square wave or (if your lucky) a stepped approximation of one. Switching times in these lower grade units can very widely and in some may take up to 10 milliseconds, usually never a problem for consumer grade equipment.

Line-Interactive units, a step up from what your are talking about. Often provide some basic filtering from 'wall power' and typically will switch to UPS power within 4 milliseconds (this of course varies somewhat between manufacturers and UPS models). You have a wide array of choices in this range and you will only see the cheaper models available in places like Best Buy or WalMart - if you see them at all in places like this. The best features of these UPS models is the ability to buck and boost the voltage as needed and the ability of most of these units to provide a good sine wave.

A Double Conversion or OnLine UPS is the best, but really unneeded in nearly all consumer applications. The UPS is continually on - output power is continually coming from the inverter, there is no switching at all when the UPS needs to go to battery as the inverter is already running. In simple terms, you have AC coming in to the unit - being converted to DC to supply power to the DC bus, which charges the batteries and supply power to the inverter - and then the power is back to AC coming out of the inverter. This has the effect of giving you much 'cleaner' power than you could ever get from wall power. This is what I would call a data center grade UPS, used to protect your most sensitive equipment from any switching transients or anything else you can get in your AC line - whether sine wave distortion caused by flourescent lights, elevators, electric motors, microwaves - you name it. There is a host of devices in homes and business (even outside of them) that effect the form of the sine wave and introduce transients into your electrical system. An On-Line UPS will filter these out, just on the basis of the AC to DC to AC design. Though not very efficient compared to their counterparts, they offer the best protection.

So yeah, in a way you are 'right', but in nearly any case you are better off using a UPS to protect your hard drive and data. Hard drives and equipment protected by UPS units last longer, and your data is safer. My lights can blink multiple times at work and at home, and my raid arrays in both places continue to work without interruption or data corruption and loss. Why would I want to do anything else?



westom said:


> Those filters, etc are already inside all appliances. And done better. Why is a UPS output so dirty? Because appliance filters make 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant.
> 
> All appliances already contain superior filters. Be concerned of a rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that can overwhelm superior 'filters'. And is not stopped by any APC ups. No problem. Since you know otherwise, you have posted APC's numeric specs that says otherwise. Apparently "you wanted the rest of us to remain uninformed about this mysterious" miracle solution found inside that UPS. You did not post any specification numbers.
> 
> ...


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I don't really care about line filtering or any of that other stuff. For me the biggest reason to use a UPC with a TiVo is that you don't have to wait 10 minutes for the TiVo to reboot when there's a 3 second power outage.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> Those filters, etc are already inside all appliances. And done better. Why is a UPS output so dirty? Because appliance filters make 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant.


Wow, the mysterious cheaper-but-better solution is revealed! 


westom said:


> All appliances already contain superior filters. Be concerned of a rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that can overwhelm superior 'filters'. And is not stopped by any APC ups. No problem. Since you know otherwise, you have posted APC's numeric specs that says otherwise.
> 
> Apparently "you wanted the rest of us to remain uninformed about this mysterious" miracle solution found inside that UPS. You did not post any specification numbers.
> 
> Reality. Even APC does not claim what you have posted. A first indication of a scam - no numbers. Subjective myths about near zero filters that will somehow stop surges. Where are those APC spec numbers that I constantly request - and are never provided? Hearsay is creates junk science.


All I "claimed" was "APC specifies surge protection on all outlets" -- meaning they say all outlets have surge protection. (Just Google APC) I guess I shouldn't have used "specifies" as it's a trigger word for you. 


westom said:


> Those who post without making bogus claims can ask to learn. Those who are educated only by advertising need not bother.


Please apply this to yourself. What references, specs or credentials did you provide in your post?

Here is an interesting discussion from the APC forum on what surge protection is in cheap APC UPS'es and surge strips:
http://forums.isxusergroups.com/thread.jspa?messageID=25423
Here is a very pertinent quote from the third post, which I believe makes technical sense:



> There's one big difference between surge strips and UPSes. The MOVs or Varistors put inside surge strips has the role of protecting against surges and suisteined overvoltages. The basic difference between these two power events is that the first one is high energy and happens very fast, comes and goes very quickly, the second one is low in energy, but comes and stays for a longer time. But what doest it have to do with anything? Wait, I'll explain.
> 
> Surge strips is prone to overheating since it has to protect the load using MOVs only (not necessarly, but that's the cheapst approach and mostly used). The MOVs used to protect against overvoltage in surge strips are usually 130V for a 120V wall outlet and 230V for a 220V wall outlet. The drawback of this approach is that while this "low" voltage MOVs can give protection against surges and sustained overvoltages, when there is a sustained overvoltage condition the MOVs heats up very fast, it conducts a lot of current and thermal fuses open the circuit so as to protect the load and the surge strip agains dangerous fire, the LED will tell you the surge strip is gone and you have to buy a new one. Now the UPS works differently, I'm talking about the APC UPSes that I have the chance to analize their internal components. So, the APC upses use MOVs right at the power input inside the UPS and these first MOVs are of a higher voltage, sometimes 230, 250, 300, 380, 530V MOVs. These high voltage MOVs will never conduct energy when there is a sustained overvoltage condition, what the UPS do is open the circuit via relay, not letting the sustained overvoltage reach your equipment and the sensitive components inside the UPS now right after the UPS transformer and relays, there's another MOV, usually 150V that is used to protect your PC against the smaller surges let through by the first MOVs. This 150V MOV will never see sustained overvoltages so it is unlikely the first MOVs and the one placed after the relays will ever burn down because of overvoltage like usually happens with surge strips, so no need to warn the user by the means of an LED or something like that. The higher voltage MOVs placed at the input will absorve most part of the surge and the last MOV will absorve the residual surge. One good thing of this approach is that you won't have a burnt UPS because of a sustained overvoltage condition, UPSes coast hundreds of dollars, surge strips can cost 15 to 50 dollars


.

Thus the passive filter element I mentioned may be nothing more than a MOV or varistor, but that's good because they are perfectly suited for the task, being by definition voltage limiting devices. These are very cheap so it's not hard to believe APC is putting them in even their cheapest UPS'es.

Even if the TiVo has a similar protection circuit in it, having an additional one provided externally in the UPS is an advantage. And the UPS provides protection for sustained overvoltage (as discussed in the quote) which the passive elements alone cannot do (without self destructing that is).

*I see no basis for the tone of your original post, which was to scare people away from cheap UPS'es such as the APC Back UPS line.*
Can you provide statistics or technical data/reports on equipment similar to TiVo ruined by Back UPS protection that would have been saved by the expensive units?

Can you specify exactly what protection elements are in the TiVo AC input circuits?

(You demand others provide such detail, so how about it?)


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

morac said:


> I don't really care about line filtering or any of that other stuff. For me the biggest reason to use a UPC with a TiVo is that you don't have to wait 10 minutes for the TiVo to reboot when there's a 3 second power outage.


 The only reason why one has a UPS. Which means a $50 UPS is just as good as a $1000 UPS that some are recommending.

Those other UPS 'solutions' already exist inside electronics. So why is anyone recommending a UPS for anything other than temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout? Because hearsay and myths are promoted without first learning what all electronics already solve. And without first reading a UPS specification sheet to learn what it really does.

Cheapest and 'dirtiest' UPS is ideal power for all electronics. Why? Because 'dirty' AC mains problems are already made irrelevant by how a Tivo's power supply is designed. 'Dirtiest' UPS power is also ideal power for all electronics.

What can cause Tivo damage? Something that can overwhelm protection already inside the Tivo. Same anomaly easily blows through any and all those above UPSes. Don't take my word for it. Read its numeric specs.

Tivo protection means an informed homeowner spend tens of times less money for a solution that responds in microseconds. A solution that has been standard for over 100 years in any facility that can never suffer damage. Not promoted by popular lies, advertising, and the resulting myths. And cannot be located adjacent to a Tivo.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

morac said:


> I don't really care about line filtering or any of that other stuff. * For me the biggest reason to use a UPC with a TiVo is that you don't have to wait 10 minutes for the TiVo to reboot when there's a 3 second power outage. *


This a million times. Or even worse, not just reboot, but continue recording the show you were recording. 

I have a whole-house backup generator, and still have UPS's for my TiVo's and the router/modem setup. I love having power when it kicks out, but it still takes 20-30 seconds to start up. The UPS's become invaluable during that interregnum.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> All I "claimed" was "APC specifies surge protection on all outlets" -- meaning they say all outlets have surge protection. (Just Google APC) I guess I shouldn't have used "specifies" as it's a trigger word for you.


My neighbor has weapons of mass destruction. Another Saddam! Then we add relevant details. He has boxes of bullets and guns. Your 'surge protected' outlets are the same hyped myth from distortion and subjective claims.

View numbers for that surge protection. It does not claim protection from typically destructive surges. It has how many joules? Hundreds. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How does it absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Why did you ignore an obvious and damning question?

You were supposed to know numbers before posting even one word. But again, where are your spec numbers for 'surge protected outlets'. I keep asking for those spec numbers. And you never provide them &#8230; because you are promoting a scam. The only unanswered question - do you know you are promoting a scam?

Hard numbers. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. Near zero surge protection in that APC is enough to claim 100% protection - in sales brochures and other subjective promotions. Please learn spec numbers before posting long myths.

Even your MOV description is a lie. What happens when a protector is grossly undersized? Its MOVs fail in a manner defined by all MOV manufacturers as "unacceptable". That failure violates parameters at the top of page 1 on every MOV datasheet. But then only one of us learned these facts and numbers before posting. You are inventing myths that intentionally deceives others.

A surge too small to harm any appliance also easily destroys a scam protector. The most naive use wild speculation to claim, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Bull. The protector disconnected as fast as possible. And left the appliance connected - to defend itself. No problem. A surge too small to harm anything also destroys a grossly undersized and ineffective 'profit center' protector. Unacceptable failure gets the most naïve to recommend that protector.

Sometimes an MOV does not disconnect fast enough. Then are scary pictures:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554 
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm 
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html 
http://*******.com/3x73ol where **** is t i n y u r l and is entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

Those 'scary' protectors had numbers better than most UPSes. Is that what you want on a desktop of papers or on a carpet? Most fire departments have seen this unacceptable MOV failure.

Informed layman buy MOV protectors that even earth direct lightning strikes. Remain functional. And that cost tens or 100 times less money. But that means learning form those here who even designed surge protection - even read MOV datasheets. Were not educated by APC sales brochures and other subjective promotions.

Too many 'experts' are only educated by hearsay, wild speculation, and advertising. Or you could read UPS specification numbers before posting. And then enlighten us all with that wisdom. Oh. You cannot. APC spec numbers do not say what you have posted. No wonder nobody is posting those spec numbers.

Meanwhile, any MOV protector that fails even during a direct lighting strike is defective. But failure does get those educated by advertising to promote the myth. Scary pictures be damned.

UPS does only one thing useful for a Tivo. Provides 'dirty' and temporary power during a blackout. Even a $50 UPS does that just fine. Protection from other anomalies is not found in a UPS. Or read UPS numeric specs to have learned it before posting. Posting subjective claims - and no numbers - says you are easily manipulated by retail propaganda. How do hundreds of joules in those surge protected outlets stop hundreds of thousands of joules?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> My neighbor has weapons of mass destruction. Another Saddam! Then we add relevant details. He has boxes of bullets and guns. Your 'surge protected outlets are the same hyped myth from distortion and subjective claims.
> 
> View numbers for that surge protection. It does not claim protection from typically destructive surges. It has how many joules? Hundreds. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How does it absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Why did you ignore an obvious and damning question?
> 
> ...


What nonsense! You, who imply you are the expert, provide almost nothing in the way of technical data or credentials, and expect others to accept what you say at face value. You seem far more interested in insulting someone who disagrees with you than on enlightening them -- or anyone.

I looked at your links (except for the tiny url one). One went to an unavailable document. One had no apparent connection to surge protectors. and two or three of the others were actually reports of the same single incident. Not really very impressive as technical documentation!

OK, MOV-based surge protectors have their limitations and may fail in a direct lightning strike -- so what? They are cheap and better than nothing. They still qualify to be called "surge protection". And what evidence is there that the surge protection circuits built into a TiVo are better than those in a APC Back UPS? I still believe that additional protection external to the TiVo helps relieve the (alleged) TiVo protection.

And you are ignoring the additional protection against sustained overvoltages provided by the UPS, as described in the post I quoted before.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> OK, MOV-based surge protectors have their limitations and may fail in a direct lightning strike -- so what?


 Apparently you did not read MOV datasheets. And did not read what was posted. MOV protectors must earth direct lightning strikes ... and remain functional. Not fail.

Protectors too close to appliances can even make appliance damage easier. Are not better than nothing. Sometimes are worse than nothing. And can even create house fires because it is intentionally undersized, a profit center, and promoted without spec numbers.

Norma describes what happened on 27 Dec 2008 in "The Power Outage":
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable man pulled a wire
> and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire. The granddaughter on the computer
> yelled and ran because sparks and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.

Another example of a grossly undersized protector promoted only because protect*or* sounds like protect*ion*. Because that profit center is designed to fail - to promote sales - rather than provide protection.

A cheapest UPS does what every UPS is for - temporary and 'dirtiest' power for a Tivo. Protection from destructive anomalies is located elsewhere. And typically costs tens or 100 times less money per protected appliance. Not having effective protection may explain the OP's failures.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> ......... Protectors too close to appliances can even make appliance damage easier. Are not better than nothing. Sometimes are worse than nothing. And can even create house fires because it is intentionally undersized, a profit center, and promoted without spec numbers........


Please provide a technical reference substantiating your claim that surge protectors such as those in APC Back UPS units "Are not better than nothing".

The issue must be considered on an overall basis, i.e., taking into account the distribution of applications, environments and all types of glitches that might be protected against. Just showing a deficiency for one particular combination of circumstances is not sufficient.

If you are such an expert that we should take that statement just based on your expertise, please provide your credentials.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> Please provide a technical reference substantiating your claim that surge protectors such as those in APC Back UPS units "Are not better than nothing".


 Those (example # 1) scary pictures answer your question completely. Being confrontational (and you still refuse to post those manufacturer spec numbers) is necessary to disavow reality. To deny being scammed.

Second example: two computers were connected to power strip protectors. The entire computer network was powered off. We literally replaced each defective IC until everything worked. Surge was incoming on AC mains. Each power strip protector connected a into each motherboard. Obviously bypassing protection inside each supply. Follow the current and destroyed ICs. Through motherboard, network card, and into a third computer via its network card.

Remember, surges seek earth ground. Out of a third computer via its modem to earth via a telephone line. All phone lines already have an earthed 'whole house' protector installed for free by the telco. First that current is simultaneously everywhere in that path. Later many ICs in that path failed.

A power strip protector destructively earthed a surge via powered off computers. Power strip even bypassed power supply protection circuits  made damage easier.

Third example. An IEEE brochure demonstrates same. A protector too far from earth ground and adjacent to TVs earthed an 8000 volt surge destructively through one TV. 8000 volts is the IEEEs number. Damage because a protector was adjacent to appliances and too far from earth.

Fourth. Dr Martzloff describes same damage in his 1994 IEEE paper. His very first conclusion defines what 'point of connection' protectors do when too close to appliances:
> Conclusion: 
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable
> difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because,
> surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

But you need not learn any of that. Reason why plug-in protectors can make damage easier is obvious when you learn how protectors work. A protector you called better than nothing even created a Boston apartment fire. Why do you even ignore those scary pictures? Advertising easily manipulates so many. Scary pictures say they so easily controlled your thinking. You even foolishly think catastrophic MOV failure is acceptable because advertising myths said so.

Learn by simply posting manufacturer spec number that claims protection. Sorry. I keep asking that damning question that you refuse to answer. No plug-in protector claims effective protection. I keep forgetting how so many only believe subjective myths; not hard facts and numbers.

More damning questions. How do hundreds of joules absorb a surge that is hundreds of thousands of joules? Most only believe advertising myths. Must deny the question even exists. Why do I keep posting these numbers - and you keep ignore them? For some, knowledge only comes from advertising and subjective rationalizations.

Another damning question. How does that 2 cm protector part stop what three miles of sky could not? Who will also ignore those damning numbers?

A UPS or power strip protector does nothing for Tivo failures. A UPS has only one Tivo purpose: provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Informed layman and homeowners learn why the best solution also costs tens or 100 times less money.

BrennanU - you did not ask for the solution. One is not provided when the only replies are intentionally confrontational. You only get a solution (well proven even 100 years ago) if you ask.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> ............. BrennanU - you did not ask for the solution. One is not provided when the only replies are intentionally confrontational. You only get a solution (well proven even 100 years ago) if you ask.


Well I'm not asking.... 
(If it's important enough for you to keep alluding to it here, you would volunteer it rather than playing this silly power game of trying to get someone to "beg" you for it.) I'm not playing that game.

You still haven't provided anything convincing to show that overall the circuit protection in an APC Back UPS "is not better than nothing". Even accepting your selected quotes from an unreferenced IEEE 1994 document, the case isn't made.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> You still haven't provided anything convincing to show that overall the circuit protection in an APC Back UPS "is not better than nothing".


 Why do you post not even one APC spec that claims protection? Because even APC does not claim what you were told, by retail salesmen, to believe. My father so loved such people. Manipulating people with advertising was fun. His complaint? FTC pushed them tell the truth. Took the fun out of it.

So many will only believe what subjective advertising orders them to believe. I must admit. He was right. Amusing was to watch so many so easily manipulated by complete lies. Amazing how many will ignore numbers to parrot subjective spin.

APC has one purpose. To provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Its numeric specifications also say same. Your silence - not a single spec number - says you actually agree. And not ready to admit so publically. It is the power of advertising.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

APC will pay for any equipment damaged by surges, spikes, etc while plugged into an APC protection device.

http://www.apc.com/support/service/equipment_protection_policy.cfm


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

morac said:


> APC will pay for any equipment damaged by surges, spikes, etc while plugged into an APC protection device.


 Read its details. If you do not have 'whole house' protection, then the warranty is void.

Ironically, if you have 'whole house' protection then you do not need the APC for surge protection.

Others have also played the warranty game. Steve Uhrig in the "UPS for computer and TV"
> I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume fax which
> was 'protected' by an APC UPS.
> I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with the purchase
> receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim. I was nice and polite and
> had everything documented including photos of their product installed next to
> the fax.
> They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting.
> I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer service,
> sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and never got the courtesy
> of a reply.

HolyCow! in "Can a cheap surge protector cut down the life of my new HDTV":
> Had my computer system "protected" by an APC SurgeArrest, and it failed
> (my computer was fried). APC refused to repair or replace, which means that APC
> lies when they print on their packaging that they will repair or replace your
> equipment which their surge-stopping equipment fails to protect.

Warranties are chock full of exemptions. That latest one says you must have 'whole house' protection installed. Of course. 'Whole house' protection is for protecting all appliances - including a UPS and power strip protector.

GM offered the industry's best warranty - 5 years or 100,000 miles. That proves GM products are superior to Honda and Toyota? Of course not.

Biggest warranties are often found on the worst products. With numerous fine print exemptions. A warranty proves nothing here. An informed consumer learns from numbers - including the manufacturer's specifications. Warranties are how inferior products are hyped to a naive consumer who ignores the numbers (and fine print exemptions).


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

I can offer only an anecdote, but when a surge hit my parents house electronics that were plugged into a UPS or "scam protector" survived while numerous devices that were not were fried. (including circuit boards in the dishwasher, refrigerator, and treadmill; a dehumidifier, and a number of small electronics)

Unsurprisingly the surge protectors weren't functional afterward, but the difference in outcome between devices plugged into them when compared to devices that weren't seems pretty compelling...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Lightning scenarios vary greatly and depend on many factors. On some (rare) occasions it has taken the form of a fireball that dances around the room! I don't doubt there are some scenarios where it can be worse to have a surge protector close to the equipment, as westom describes. What I question is his claim that on average an inexpensive surge protector (e.g. as in APC Back UPS units) is of no value.

One thing on which there seems to be a consensus is that if you suspect a surge protector has been stressed, you should assume it needs to be replaced. Also repeated minor events wear them out so how do you know they are still good?


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## slydog75 (Jul 8, 2004)

westom said:


> Read its details. If you do not have 'whole house' protection, then the warranty is void.
> 
> Ironically, if you have 'whole house' protection then you do not need the APC for surge protection.
> .


Are you just making stuff up on the fly now? You put quotes on 'whole house' protection, but no where in that document do either of those words even appear.

In fact, it even says you cannot be using any other solutions other than APC for the warranty to apply



> The APC product must be plugged into properly wired and grounded outlets; no extension cords, adapters, other ground wires, or electrical connections may be used, with the sole exception of other standard APC 120 volt products. The installation must not include power protection products made by any manufacturer other than APC. The installation must comply with all applicable electrical and safety codes set forth pursuant to the National Electrical Code (NEC).


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

As good as companies like APC are, those things are usually written in such a way that it's practically impossible to qualify...


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## Admdata (May 10, 2010)

OK I am not going to get into the middle of this argument, however I will share what did happen to me, and why now my HDVR2 is on a UPS power supply (APC smart UPS 700VA).
I had a Sony SVR-2000 Series 1 Tivo, hookuped to a surge strip, in 1 month the power failed at least once a week (and it didn't just go off it spiked and went off and on a min of 3 times). long story short after the 4 or 5 time with happened, the tivo was very slow and stopped working all toghter. Off to the store (had a service contract on it), they had to send it back to Sony, and they had to replace my Motherboard and Hard drive, after that I bought a APC Smart-UPS SU700Net, and have had all my tivo's on them ever since, with no problems.

So if you want to have your tivo's hooked directly into the wall that is fine, but don't complain that you have to shell out $300-$500 when you tivo dies and you could have prevented it with a $40 UPS


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Worf said:


> As good as companies like APC are, those things are usually written in such a way that it's practically impossible to qualify...


I agree. I've always been skeptical about that. But realistically, my common sense tells me I can't expect an under-$100 device to protect my equipment from a lightning strike (which is powerful enough to split trees and set them on fire).

I suspect the inexpensive APC units have minimal surge protection in them, and they don't seem to give very detailed specs on what it is. However, two factors are true:

1. If you can find a better UPS (by your standards) for what you're willing to pay, buy it. (In other words APC has competition and no one forces you to buy APC.) The same truth applies to all UPS suppliers.

2. Consumers get what they demand and are willing to pay for. If most UPS consumers were electrical engineers who had done the work necessary to become experts on protection, they might demand more detailed specifications and they might refuse to purchase products that either didn't supply specs or whose specs were not up to their requirments. Of course this probably would mean that the price of acceptable devices would double or triple. A company is not going to price themselves out of the competition by supplying quality that consumers don't appreciate and can't understand.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

Admdata said:


> So if you want to have your tivo's hooked directly into the wall that is fine, but don't complain that you have to shell out $300-$500 when you tivo dies and you could have prevented it with a $40 UPS


 View manufacturer spec numbers. Protection in that power strip is how many times better than the UPS? But you know otherwise using wild speculation - observation not tempered by basic knowledge? Meanwhile, the informed consumer spends $1 per for a real protector. You spent how much for something that does not even claim protection?

Observation alone is called junk science. For every story of protection are just as many of damage. Below is another poster who saw what we see more often. UPS made damage easy.

A surge must be absorbed harmlessly outside the building. Or that surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Surge selects which appliances to destroy and which to ignore. No protector ever stops a surge. Never. Sometimes, a plug-in protector makes damage easier - as we who learn from facts have seen.

Protection means energy dissipates harmlessly outside the building - as Franklin even demonstrated in 1752. Protection means a home never has damage even from a direct lightning strike. Effective protection means nobody even knew the surge existed. But those who know only from observation would never know anything. Exactly.

What we often see with or without a UPS:
http://www.dcmessageboards.com/APC-Battery-Backup-prot-t16760.html&p=33252
> Computer - Fried ... Printer - Fried ... Hughes Satellite Modem - Fried 
Impossible if that Admdata's UPS did as he 'knows'. That power strip and his $40 UPS both claim near zero protection. Protection from surges that typically do no damage. But he knows otherwise because he saw damage? Observation alone is called junk science reasoning.

Well proven protection is found in every telco switching center. How often is your town without phones for four days after every thunderstorm? COs suffer about 100 surges with every storm. And no damage. They use science - not wild speculation attached to observations.

They waste no money on plug-in protectors. Instead, every incoming wire connects to earth (ie via a 'whole house' protector). Telcos spend less money for something logical. Who to believe? Hearsay stories based in observation and wild speculation? Or how protection is done in every building that can never have damage? Why would anyone spend tens of times more money for a UPS that does not even claim that surge protection? Please. At least read manufacture spec numbers before speculating.

Protection is always - as in how long have you lived - always about where energy dissipates. That fact must be in every reasonable post. Is never found in junk science reasoning. How did virtually no joules in a UPS absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? Observation that ignores facts? Even the manufacturer does not claim what many 'know'. Observation alone is junk science.

Informed homeowners earth one whole house protector. A superior solution costs less, comes from more responsible companies, and is proven by over 100 years of real world science. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground  which that UPS does not have.

Admdata could have first learned facts. Destructive surges typically occur once every seven years. He had one surge that blew through the superior protector (see manufacturer spec numbers). How many surges did that (lesser protection) UPS stop None. UPS manufacturer specs numbers agree. None. Observation without first learning facts is classic junk science. If his post had credibility, then he said where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Explains why his UPS does not claim that protection. And so much damage with Luke_Wilbur's UPS - that performed as the manufacturer said it would.

Any layman can read those spec numbers. It claims virtually no protection. To not know that implies illiteracy - or one wants to be scammed. Provided from those who know this stuff is the superior solution that also costs less money. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which none of those UPSes have. Or will discuss.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Leviton Whole House Protector:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?item=704322&section=28317&minisite=10026

Costs around $175 at Amazon or SmartHome. Cost for an electrician to install plus their markup on part would bring it to around $500 I would guess.

I'm glad to know any layman can understand the specs. I guess the fact I'm an electrical engineer explains why I don't  (although I probably could -- if I was willing to spend several hours researching it).

This unit is based on MOV technology (just like the "point-of-use" types) which means it can "wear out". It has an LED diagnostic that I assume tells you when this has happened.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

There's no "whole house" solution that will protect your equipment from a direct lightning strike. Grounding your house won't do anything as the amount of current passing through those wires to the copper ground spike outside your house are more than likely to melt as easily as the wires in a circuit breaker do.

There's only two things that might protect your equipment from lightning damage:

1. Using a lightning rod to prevent a direct hit.
2. Putting all your electronics in a Faraday cage to prevent damage from the EM pulse that lightning generates. That EM pulse can damage electronics even if they aren't plugged in via electromagnetic induction.

#2 assumes your house doesn't burn down do to the heat generated from the strike (around 36,000 °F) or from induced or direct current going through wiring that can't handle the extreme voltage and current of a lightning strike (note that most house wiring isn't designed to handle a trillion watts of power). Basically the only thing preventing damage from a direct lightning strike is luck. Actually your best defense against lightning is to plant a bunch of tall trees near your a few hundred feet from your house since they will tend to take the hit instead of your house.

As for electronics not needing surge protectors. If you want to test that theory plug a device that's designed for 120 Volts into a 240 Volt outlet and you'll see how well it does at handling higher voltages.

The only electronics that might not require surge protects are ones that work on DC current with an external power adapter as they have a transformer in the power adapter which isolates the device from the power outlet. Though the transformer can be damaged by surges requiring the user to replace the power adapter and potentially damage the equipment if the EM pulse caused by the spike causes a high enough current to be inducted in the device.

The TiVo has an internal power supply which converts AC to DC. Surges can blow out that power supply which can then damage other electronics such as capacitors, drives, etc. I've seen it first hand in computers where the power supply goes and takes out the hard drive in the process.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

The lightning rod is such an elegant device -- so simple yet very effective. It's curious to me that it does not seem to be in common use in residential housing nowadays, at least not in Ohio, Michigan and Indiana. I think for a long time after Ben invented it, it was used on most structures. What caused this change?

Westom seemed to be implying that most consumer electronic devices and appliances have some kind of surge protection built in. Perhaps I misunderstood him, although I can't imagine how that could happen.  I wonder if TiVo doesn't have this too?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

morac said:


> There's no "whole house" solution that will protect your equipment from a direct lightning strike. Grounding your house won't do anything as the amount of current passing through those wires to the copper ground spike outside your house are more than likely to melt as easily as the wires in a circuit breaker do.
> 
> There's only two things that might protect your equipment from lightning damage:
> 
> ...


Using a lightning rod to prevent a direct hit, or tall trees near you home, is the only possible way to try to prevent damage from a direct lightning strike that might do a lot more damage than to your electronics, like burn the home down. Older homes can also have a big problem if they have a loss of the neutral line coming into the home, newer homes have ground rods to help in that case and if your home does not have such a ground rod I would have one installed. The big rack mounted power conditioner costing well over $1000 must do something more than a $15 surge power strip or a $40 UPS, or they could be just a con job or an insurance policy against the electronics connected to them. For my computer the UPS does the job of giving me a controlled shutdown. I have had TiVos for about 9 years without any UPS and without problems, I do have underground incoming wiring, that may help. If one does have many short power interruptions than a UPS is advisable for TiVos and most likely your HDTV, but IMHO most people don't need them and i agree to disagree with those that do feel in their heart that no electronics should run without being connected to a UPS, as it can't hurt. (just uses a little extra AC power running the UPS)


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

The claim of 'dirtiest power' from UPS units has me shaking mt head. Having been a part of power quality studies in the past, you would be surprised how clean and 'pretty' a sine wave you can get from some UPS units. Sure, the low end models do not provide the cleanest power, but that is not the point. The point is - you are better off using a UPS than not, and I think nearly everyone here agrees with that. All this talk about surge suppression, important yes, but surges are less frequent than brownouts, voltage sags, and blinks and outages - which are more dangerous to your hard drives. You can find UPS units that provide cleaner and better power, and is some cases you may need or want that. Provide claims that *all* UPS units provide the dirtiest of power or stop claiming that as fact. I will agree the inexpensive, smaller consumer grade units you can get so cheap do not provide very clean power, but so what. For most people that will work fine - and it seems nearly everyone will agree with that as well.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

daveak said:


> Sure, the low end models do not provide the cleanest power, but that is not the point. The point is - you are better off using a UPS than not, and I think nearly everyone here agrees with that. All this talk about surge suppression, important yes, but surges are less frequent than brownouts, voltage sags, and blinks and outages - which are more dangerous to your hard drives.


 Wow. Myths and irrelevant claims arrive in waves.

Let's start with a disk drive myth so common among computer assemblers. When does a disk drive first learn of a power off? When DC voltages start dropping. To all disk drives (as was true with 1960 disk drives). All power offs (blackouts or normal power off) are same to every drive. Disk drives are never told power is going off. Yank the power cord. Or power off with a switch. Makes no difference. All power offs are exactly same - are unexpected - to every disk drive.

If brownouts, voltage sags, blinks, etc were destructive, then that poster will define which parts are damaged. Can even cite 'why' from datasheets. Unexpected power off, voltage sags, etc cause no hardware damage. Even 1970 international design standards defined low voltages as, well, in capital letters: No Damage Region. Those educated by hearsay will deny this when the honest response it to define the damaged part - with numbers.

Posts without numbers imply myths or outright lying. Perfectly ideal power to all electronics is voltage so low that incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. A number. Do your light bulbs dim that much? If yes, then refrigerators, the furnace, and other motorized appliances are at risk. If voltage drops 8%, then motorized appliances (not electronics) are at risk. More numbers. If light bulbs dim less than 40%, then all electronics perform a normal power off.

The usual reply from myth purveyors will be, "But I know it because I saw it." And that is classic junk science.

Unexpected power off does not harm a disk drive. All power offs are unexpected to every disk drive. But many educated by hearsay and wild speculation 'know' sudden power off damages electronics. Why? It must be true for a long list of reasons including 1) they always believe the first thing they are told. 2) They never demand facts and numbers. 3) They do not even know that ideal power for all electronics include brownouts - when light bulbs are at 50% intensity. 4) They never learned how electricity works.

Unfortunately reality takes longer to explain. Many eyeballs glazed over long ago. Same people who know only from observation and hearsay. Cannot learn how electricity works when knowledge required reading much more than this short summary.

More numbers. Output from a typical 120 volt UPS: 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Harmful to small motors and power strip protectors (manufacturers recommend only electronics on their UPS). Any line conditioning by a UPS is already done better inside the Tivo. Known only by poster who also learned numbers.

Should lurkers forget what the OP asked: a UPS does nothing useful for a Tivo. A UPS has one purpose: provide temporary and 'dirty' power during a blackout. But those promoting UPS advertising will also invent power cleaning (that even the manufacturer does not claim). 'Dirtiest' power is ideal because all electronics and Tivos make 'dirtiest' power irrelevant. Anything a UPS might do to 'clean' power was already done better inside a Tivo.

Transients that can overwhelm protection inside a Tivo (and other appliances) are made irrelevant by one 'whole house' protector connected within feet of earth ground. Even sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50 because any informed homeowner can install it. A liar said it will cost $500 so you will stay dumb. Informed homeowners should be asking for details. But with so many nasty posters, informed conversation is impossible.

Any Tivo owner without a 'whole house' protector and with 100 plug-in protectors only has protection that comes standard inside every Tivo. Informed homeowners earth one 'whole house' protector so that a Tivo's internal protection is not overwhelmed. So that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage. As was routine even 100 years ago when people were not educate by retail propaganda. Superior protection costs less money. And is not found in plug-in profit centers.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> ....... Unfortunately reality takes longer to explain. Many eyeballs glazed over long ago. ........


Unfortunately in your case "longer" is bordering on an agonizing forever. You're right about eyeballs glazing over though.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

lessd said:


> Using a lightning rod to prevent a direct hit, or tall trees near you home, is the only possible way to try to prevent damage from a direct lightning strike that might do a lot more damage than to your electronics, like burn the home down.


Those using logic learn from over a century of well proven science. Your telco's switching computer is connected to overhead wires all over town. It suffers, on average, 100 surges during each thunderstorm. According to your logic, every telco disconnects all town phone service with each approaching storm. Reality. They suffer 100 surges with each storm - and no damage. They disconnect nothing - and have no damage.

Telcos use a 'whole house' protector so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.

What does a 'whole house' protector do? Same thing that a lightning rod does. The NIST (US government research agency) tells every layman same:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert
> it to ground, where it can do no harm.

Divert it to earth ground where it can do no harm. Ben Franklin's lightning rod did same. That is what all effective protectors do. And why one 'whole house' protector is connected short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground.

NIST also defines plug-in protectors:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by
> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be
> useless if grounding is not done properly.

I defined those protectors as ineffective. The NIST is blunter. A protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground is *useless*.

So that protection already inside every Tivo is not overwhelmed, the informed homeowner earths one 'whole house' protector. Then nobody even knows a surge existed.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

westom said:


> ...Unexpected power off does not harm a disk drive...


Physically, probably not. Logically? I want the DATA that may be writing to that drive to NOT encounter an unexpected power off in mid-write.

UPS wins.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

westom said:


> Then those who used logic note reality. Your telco's switching computer is connected to overhead wires all over town. It suffers, on average, 100 surges during each thunderstorm. According to your logic, the telco disconnects all town phone service with each approaching storm. Reality. They suffer 100 surges with each storm - and no damage.
> 
> Telcos use a 'whole house' protector so that even direct lightning strikes cause no damage.


Here's another reality for you. A few summers back my local power company's power substation took a direct lightning strike. There was substantial damage and from that point on there were frequent and sustained power outages in my area until the substation could be repaired (which took months).

If the power company can't protect against lightning strikes, what makes you think the local telco can?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> Physically, probably not. Logically? I want the DATA that may be writing to that drive to NOT encounter an unexpected power off in mid-write.
> 
> UPS wins.


Not to mention powering on equipment in the middle of a power off cycle isn't really good for it. Worse if multiple power off and on cycles occur in a very short period of time as it can stress the drive motor. That's one of the reasons TiVo says to wait 15 seconds after unplugging a TiVo box before plugging it back in.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

Although I have surge protectors and UPS's on all my electronics and Tivo's, my main protection comes from my homeowners insurance. If somehow I get a big shot from a thunderstorm and it fries my TV's, computers and Tivo's I won't sweat it, I'll just get all new stuff.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> .........
> ............ The NIST is blunter. A protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground is *useless*.
> ...........


You are at least implying that you are quoting from a NIST document. Please provide a reference or link to that document. Sorry but the level of trust here is not sufficient for me to accept that you have properly interpreted this in context -- especially since you quoted only a single word.

A surge protector further from earth may not be as effective, but it can still be better than no surge protection.

And if lightning comes down the fireplace chimney into your TiVo, a whole house protector isn't going to save it.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

morac said:


> If the power company can't protect against lightning strikes, what makes you think the local telco can?


 When damage occurs, what do professionals do? The investigation starts with the only thing that does surge protection. Single point earth ground.

Unfortunately, there is no way to test a protection system. So informed layman here should be asking about the most important items to protect a Tivo. Single point ground.

Once damage happens, the investigation may discover a defective ground. Either a lineman made a mistake. Or the environment damaged protection. But this we know. Damage from direct lightning strikes is directly traceable to human failure.

Again, we cannot test the system. Protection means learning from over 100 years of knowledge.

Munitions dumps are routinely struck by lightning - without explosion. A well proven solution is called Ufer grounds. Pioneered by Dr Ufer in munitions dumps. And virtually unknown to a majority educated by retail salesmen.

A 33,000 volt wire fell upon local distribution. Electric meters exploded 10 meters (30 feet) from their pans. Many suffered appliance, UPS, and protector damage. At least one had damaged circuit breakers. My friend knows someone who actually knows this stuff. He wasted no money on plug-in protectors or UPS. He only had one 'whole house' protector properly earthed. No damage except to a utility meter. He learned from someone actually learned this stuff. And the only required component in every protection system - single point earth ground.

When damage happens, an investigation starts with the most common reason for that damage - defective earthing.

Protection inside a Tivo is not overwhelmed when the most critical system component both meets and exceeds post 1990 National Electrical code. Only those who actually know surge protection would discuss this.

Thank you for asking a question that is based in technology - not in accusations. Getting to relevant facts has been difficult due to so many cheapshot accusations. We should have been discussing this most critical component so many posts ago. And would be if posters were asking to learn rather than attack. This post defines what every Tivo owner should know.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

orangeboy said:


> Physically, probably not. Logically? I want the DATA that may be writing to that drive to NOT encounter an unexpected power off in mid-write.


 Disk drive's computer sees power going off. So it finishes writing to sectors and stops writing. No file damage.

If your file system is obsolete FAT, then an unsaved file can result in erasing its earlier copy. Twenty plus years ago, even Microsoft implemented superior technology. If an unsaved file was lost, then the file system simply restored its previous version.

You are entertaining myths. Your fears were obsoleted even by Microsoft about 25 years ago. UPS means the latest unsaved data can be saved. UPS is not needed to protect data already on that disk.

That is the only purpose of a UPS. To provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. Its only useful purpose. And the only reason our OP needs a UPS.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

donnoh said:


> Although I have surge protectors and UPS's on all my electronics and Tivo's, my main protection comes from my homeowners insurance.


 Important is to have insurance (warranty) from one licensed and conforming to state and federal laws. Your insurance company may or may not provide surge reimbursement. Check the policy. If it exists, it will not have numerous fine print exemptions so commonly attached to plug-in protectors.

Also check for replacement value as opposed to blue book value. And reimbursement for costs associated with lost data.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Some people believe it is OK to subject your hard rive and other equipment to repeated blinks and breaks in power. Each to his/ her own. I choose to protect certain electronics from this certain to occur event. And yes, adequate and properly installed 'whole house' protection is a good idea, but no one is ever fully immune to a lightening strike - And surges and sags can be called by devices inside your home as well, so be prepared. And lightening can strike and cause uncontrolled surges inside the 'protected area' of your 'whole house' protection device - depending on the point of strike and entry into your circuits. Entry into your equipment can also include phone lines/DSL and cable internet.

Amazing TiVo does not market this fantastic protection. Just plug it straight into the wall with a $50 whole house protector, I have some data type clients I need to contact right away. Imagine the money saved if we could get internet providers to go this route in protecting their equipment and their (and your) data?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> ........ We should have been discussing this most critical component so many posts ago. And would be if [posters were asking to learn rather than attack *I had been more to the point rather than trying to play some ego game about my superior expert knowledge*]. .........


I corrected your post for you.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

dlfl said:


> I corrected your post for you.




Wouldn't it have been easier just to pass on what he has done in his own home and why it works for him? Especially - the way it protects your equipment and data from loss, damage, and corruption? Just wondering...

This special secret knowledge thing is really annoying and I keep thinking that if I just send him a PM and $50 I can share in this most wonderful of revelations. That would be rather telling, don't you think?

Most would simply share their information and what equipment they purchased and from where to accomplish a specific task(s). Maybe even share the specs of the device/ equipment or at least provide a link. Maybe let us know what TiVo(s) they own and how they get a signal, all these things that mean something to us forum lurkers.

I'm just sayin'


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

daveak said:


> Amazing TiVo does not market this fantastic protection. Just plug it straight into the wall with a $50 whole house protector, I have some data type clients I need to contact right away.


 What happens when a UPS switches to battery backup? A long period of no power. No problem. Among many functions required to be inside every electronic supply is constant (unchanging) DC voltage while AC power is lost. Then a UPS switching to battery backup mode does not cause flickering inside a Tivo. Electronics power supplies makes that power loss irrelevant. A power loss that can reset the microwave clock does not interrupt the Tivo, computer, and other robust appliances.

Just another protection feature found in electronics as required even by international design standards. And necessary so that a UPS causes no problems during switchover.

Tivo may or may not list this function that was required even in the original IBM PC. An example of so many functions routinely inside electronic appliances and often unknown to an overwhelming majority. Another example of why a minority so often have a correct answer contrary to popular urban folklore. How to identify the informed minority? That minority provide answers with 'reasons why' and numbers.

Why are power blips not seen by a disk drive? That is why disk drives are powered from a power supply. AC power varies widely or is lost for a period. And its disk drive never even knew. Voltage to the drive stays rock steady.

In every facility that can never suffer damage, a 'whole house' protector is the always required and only sufficient protection. From "Planning guide for Sun Server room":
> Section 6.4.7 Lightning Protection: 
> Lightning surges cannot be stopped, but they can be diverted. The plans for the
> data center should be thoroughly reviewed to identify any paths for surge entry
> into the data center. Surge arrestors can be designed into the system to help
> mitigate the potential for lightning damage within the data center. These should
> divert the power of the surge by providing a path to ground for the surge
> energy.

Protection in any facility is always about where energy harmlessly dissipates. You should know this 100+ year old technology. Informed Tivo owners do same by earthing one 'whole house' protector. Effective protectors provided by more responsible companies including ABB, Siemens, General Electri, Leviton, Intermatic, Square D and Cutler-Hammer - to name but a few.


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

I believe The giant slightly disturbing post above is wrong. Use a UPS.

I've always used a UPS on every TiVo I've had, since 2001. Had great success with them (lots and lots of TiVos over time, two failures in about ten years and one of those was the power supply in an old Series 2. Roughly 25 TiVos-years, see below).

Currently, we have two HDTiVOs and two Series 3's.

Prior to that, two or more Series 1's, three or so Series 2's, a third Series 3 for a while.

I've had just one drive go bad and one power supply on an old Series 2.

I used to get the $40 APC jobbies, still have two of those in use.

On my main TV/stereo/TiVos now though I use two of these. These definitely last longer than the APCs.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ThreeSoFar said:


> I believe The giant slightly disturbing post above is wrong. Use a UPS.
> 
> I've always used a UPS on every TiVo I've had, since 2001. Had great success with them (lots and lots of TiVos over time, two failures in about ten years and one of those was the power supply in an old Series 2. Roughly 25 TiVos-years, see below).
> 
> ...


You say "they definitely last longer". In what way? Battery life? Or what?
How much are the batteries for this unit? One disagreeable thing about APC Back UPS units is that the batteries only last about 2 or 3 years and replacement cost can be 50% to 75% of original cost, depending on whether you get the APC brand battery (and if you don't the warrany on equipment is definitely gone -- not that I really care about that). You may think you're getting more than 3 years battery life but you don't really know unless you test backup performance, which very few of us want to bother doing.

I like the LCD display. Does it tell you if the surge protection has been depleted?


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## Admdata (May 10, 2010)

> iew manufacturer spec numbers. Protection in that power strip is how many times better than the UPS? But you know otherwise using wild speculation - observation not tempered by basic knowledge? Meanwhile, the informed consumer spends $1 per for a real protector. You spent how much for something that does not even claim protection?
> 
> Observation alone is called junk science. For every story of protection are just as many of damage. Below is another poster who saw what we see more often. UPS made damage easy.
> 
> ...


As I said I didn't want to get involved in this thread, a surge is not what took out my tivo back then, nothing was "fried" in electrical terms, also the power strip I had it on was not a surge strip at all, it was all the shutdowns and restarts (8 in one month), because of power interruptions, also it was a old series 1 (SVR-2000) (new at the time)


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

Admdata said:


> ... a surge is not what took out my tivo back then, ... it was all the shutdowns and restarts (8 in one month),


 Makes no difference if power off is at the mains or by the Tivo's switch. Neither cause failure. Power off or low voltages cause no damage to electronics. BTW, electronics do not actually fry due to a surge. Most surge damage results in no visible indication.

Some power interruptions can be preceeded by a surge. The surge followed by a utility fuse tripping. An example of people blaming power loss for damage that power off cannot create.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

westom said:


> Some power interruptions can be preceeded by a surge. The surge followed by a utility fuse tripping. An example of people blaming power loss for damage that power off cannot create.


Actually the power on cycle causes more stress than the power off cycle. That's why most light bulbs burn out when the lights are first turned on. Again powering a device off and on many times in succession, especially one with moving parts that have a spin down time, is not good for devices. Some devices, like a/c compressors, will actually have protection circuits to prevent this. Most hard drives do not. Also remember the TiVo is designed to run 24/7.

Even devices without moving parts can still "move" do to expansion and contractions caused by heat which can weakens solder points and stress components in the device. That's former is actual the most common reason game consoles fail.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

morac said:


> Actually the power on cycle causes more stress than the power off cycle. That's why most light bulbs burn out when the lights are first turned on.


 Observation without first learning facts is classic junk science. Another example of those who know only from observation - who did not first learn how light bulbs fail.

If power cycling is so destructive, then the first light bulbs to fail are the orange bulbs in traffic signals that flash all night long. Reality. The green and red bulbs fail much faster. Why? Because hours of operation (and voltage) determine light bulb failure rates.

Or one goes to the IES Handbook - the industry bible. Defined are parameters for bulb life expectancy. Defined with equations. IES defined bulb life expectancy in exponential equation using hours of operation and filament temperature (voltage). Power cycling appears nowhere; is not relevant.

An observer will see a bulb fail when powered on. Then *know* power cycling is destructive? Classic junk science. Had he first collected facts, then he noticed blackening inside a bulb. Its filament so badly damaged = vaporized - as to fail anytime within hours or minutes. That severely damaged bulb was so gently stressed as to fail on power on.

Again, because so many never learn it. Knowledge from observation is the same junk science that proved spontaneous reproduction. As taught even in primary school science. Observation without first learning underlying science is what so many foolishly do to assume power cycling is destructive.

If power cycling is destructive, then list what component is damaged. And why. Observation without learning facts with hard numbers - ie a datasheet - is why so many 'expert' promote hearsay as fact.

Power cycling is destructive. For example, a power switch has a life expectancy of about 100,000 power cycles. That means power cycling seven times every day (including Sundays and holidays) for ... 39 years. Nobody cares. Once we add numbers, damage from power cycling is irrelevant - virtually non-existent.

The most unreliable device I found was an IBM disk drive rated for an unacceptable 20,000 power cycles. Five times every day for ... 11 years. Nobody cares. The informed first learn facts and numbers. The most easily deceived know only from observation - classic junk science.

If power cycling is so destructive, well, AC electricity power cycles 120 times every second. Therefore destructive power cycling is also called power on. But you cannot see it. Therefore you ignored it? Selective data sampling is another example of junk science.

Why are faster computers so hot? Power cycling at Gigahertz is so violent that transistors actually radiate a burst of infrared light during that switching. So less switching (running a computer slower) means the computer last longer? Of course not. But those who know only from wild speculation would say otherwise. Junk science is alive and well when people know without first learning facts. When wild speculation and observation is sufficient to know something.

Observation can only create speculation. Speculation from observation is only enough to ask to learn. Only enough to inspire questions that later create a hypothesis. Not enough to *know* anything. And yet so many *know* power cycling and light bulb failures must be synonymous. Unfortunately junk science is alive and well. Which was why Saddam had WMDs. Learn even from history to stop making mistakes.

Power cycling is light bulb destructive only when observation and speculation creates junk science.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

westom said:


> Power cycling is light bulb destructive only when observation and speculation creates junk science.


I didn't say powering on a light bulb was the sole cause of it burning out, only that in the vast majority of time it burns out when first turned on do to the stress caused on the initial power up. Obviously the longer a bulb has been used, the more likely this is to occur.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I agree there is a problem with junk science. If you're interested in learning more about this, here are a couple of web sites that provide good detailed information (rather than sanctimonious preaching, insults, arrogant put downs, and the high fog factor seen in this thread):

http://www.junkscience.com/

http://www.acsh.org/factsfears/


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

morac said:


> I didn't say powering on a light bulb was the sole cause of it burning out, only that in the vast majority of time it burns out when first turned on do to the stress caused on the initial power up.


 That stress is near zero. Virtually does not exist. Power cycling is not destructive to hardware - light bulbs or electronics. But urban myths say otherwise using only subjective reasoning - no numbers. IES Handbook discusses all relevant bulb parameters. Stress from power on is not listed.

Power on stress is a very popular myth because so many assume irrelevant factors rather than first learn facts - especially numbers.

This discussion started using same speculation posted as 'fact'. A UPS does temporary and dirtiest power during a blackout. Others were challenged to post a single manufacturer spec number that claimed hardware protection. Nobody did because nobody can. Even the manufacturer did not claim that protection. Only subjective (junk science) reasoning recommends a UPS to protect a Tivo.

Defined was what every Tivo owner should have. So that protection already inside every Tivo is not overwhelmed. Recommendations with numbers and that include citations from so many professional sources. Without spin from retail salesmen or advertising. Facts based in over 100 years of well proven science.

A UPS was recommended using same reasons why 'power cycling' is destructive to light bulbs. Wild speculation based only in hearsay. Not based in hard facts and numbers. UPS does nothing for the OP's hardware concerns. Power cycling (rumored stress) does not cause light bulb failures. Tivo owners can protect from rare anomalies that may overwhelm protection already inside every Tivo.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

westom said:


> ...This discussion started using same speculation posted as 'fact'. A UPS does temporary and dirtiest power during a blackout. Others were challenged to post a single manufacturer spec number that claimed hardware protection. Nobody did because nobody can. Even the manufacturer did not claim that protection...


From APC's website, relating to their "Computer and peripheral" UPS products:



> Battery backup and surge *protection* for computer systems, home networking, external storage, gaming, home servers and other electronics


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

orangeboy said:


> From APC's website, relating to their "Computer and peripheral" UPS products:
> Battery backup and surge protection ...


Again, a post that is only subjective. An example of why spin even proved Saddam had WMDs.

Read its spec numbers. Near zero protection. Just enough above zero to claim 100% protection. Protection from surges that damage nothing. Superior protection already exists inside every appliance.

APC is not selling to people who remember junior high science. They are selling to others who will automatically believe anything they are told. Who do not ask damning question. Who do not need hard facts. Who know without any numbers. Where are your numbers? Oh. You know only because APC advertising said it was true.

I had a friend whose job was to scam people. He most loved calling on the most religious. They would automatically believe everything he told them. Never demanded numbers. Always believed subjective claims. They were his best income. APC (as you so willingly demonstrate) plays the same game profitably. They tell you what to believe. And you automatically believe everything. You also 'knew' Saddam had WMDs? Apparently. Not everyone learns from history.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> ........ Read its [APC Back UPS] spec numbers. Near zero protection. Just enough above zero to claim 100% protection. Protection from surges that damage nothing. Superior protection already exists inside every appliance.
> ..............


OK, here is the link to the spec page for the smallest Back UPS model (350VA):

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE350G&total_watts=200

And here is the surge protection spec from that page:


> Surge Protection and Filtering:
> Surge energy rating: 365 Joules
> Filtering: Full time multi-pole noise filtering : 5% IEEE surge let-through : zero clamping response time : meets UL 1449


You have repeatedly (ad nauseum actually) asserted that a TiVo (or "every appliance" as above) has superior protection built in. Where is YOUR spec to show that?


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## ThreeSoFar (May 24, 2002)

ANyone else done with the troll?


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

The only thing I found indicating using a surge suppressor is bad is this article, which was written by the CEO of a company that sells whole house power conditioning systems so it's not the most objective article.

If you take the article to be true though, it still indicates that it's bad to plug computers and similar devices directly into the wall as power fluctuations can cause soft errors with both memory and hard drives. These aren't fatal, but can cause instability forcing a reboot.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> OK, here is the link to the spec page for the smallest Back UPS model (350VA): ...
> Surge energy rating: 365 Joules


 365 joules means it uses 122 joules and never more than 265 joules for protection. Meanwhile, how do hundreds of joules avert surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? This is not the first time I asked that question. Asked again because so many have posted without first reading.

Its entire protection is a near zero number. But as long as APC claim surge protection subjectively, and as long as orangeboy, et al hype those myths, then a majority will believe them. Exact same reasoning also proved Saddam's WMDs.

120 volt electronics even in 1970 design standards were required to withstand 600 volts without damage. Today those numbers exceed thousands of volts. Intel's ATX standards define protection up to 2000 volts. A specification from a Seasonic power supply defined 1800VAC for 1sec. Even International design standards such as IEC 61000-4-2 define protection at 2000 and 15,000 volts.

Protection defined with numbers. Those APC numbers define its protection - near zero. orangeboy's "Battery backup and surge protection for computer systems ... " is also called "near zero". As your numbers demonstrate.

Informed Tivo owners earth a 'whole house' protector rated at - another number - 50,000 amps. Then even direct lightning strikes (typ. 20,000 amps) are harmlessly earthed outside the building. Then no surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via a Tivo. Even the protector remains functional after a direct lightning strike. But again, more numbers. Effective solutions provided by more responsible companies.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

westom said:


> Again, a post that is only subjective. An example of why spin even proved Saddam had WMDs.
> 
> Read its spec numbers. Near zero protection. Just enough above zero to claim 100% protection. Protection from surges that damage nothing. Superior protection already exists inside every appliance.
> 
> ...


A UPS has a good use for a computer so you can initiate an orderly shutdown (like when updating your BIOS a loss of power could be the end of your computer until a new BIOS chip is installed), for other electronics like a TiVo its use would good only one had many power interruptions and brownouts, not many people have that problem in the USA.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

westom said:


> ...and as long as orangeboy, et al hype those myths...





westom said:


> ...And not from hearsay such as orangeboy's subjective claims...


Thank you for singling me out. My reply was to your statement that "the manufacturer did not claim that protection...". I gave evidence on the APC website where the manufacture uses the term "protection". I'm not hyping APC/Belkin/Tripplite/whoever. I could care less if APC or others sell 1 UPS or 1 billion. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but I'm starting to agree with an earlier sentiment about your presence being merely a troll.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

morac said:


> The only thing I found indicating using a surge suppressor is bad is this article, ...


 Or read what professionals have been saying for over 100 years. For example, the non-profit NIST (a US government research agency):
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by
> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be
> useless if grounding is not done properly.

What does the APC not have? What does it not discuss? Earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. No problem. Even their own numbers claim near zero protection - and others still recommend it. They are not selling effective protection. They are selling subjective advertising to orangeboy, et al.

Another professional who, like this author, learned by also making some mistakes:
> Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning 30 years, that
> you can design a system that will handle *direct lightning strikes* on a routine
> basis. It takes some planning and careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it
> overly expensive. At WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes
> nearly every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such strikes is
> almost non-existant. The last time we went down from a strike, it was due to a
> strike on the power company's lines knocking *them* out, ...
> Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously to educate
> amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct strikes. The belief that there's
> no protection from direct strike damage is *myth*. ...
> The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly simple, and surprisingly
> less than obvious. Of course you *must* have a single point ground system that
> eliminates all ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path for the
> energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance* path rather than just a
> low ohm DC path.

A "Planning guide for Sun Server room" said same thing. Which is why telephone COs use 'whole house' protectors with the *always required* earthing. And do not waste money on APC protectors.

Learn from professionals. Not from the much more propaganda put forth by high profit companies such as APC and Monster. Ignore hearsay such as orangeboy's subjective claims.

How to protect a Tivo has been understood for over 100 years. Or need I just keep reminding you. Protection is always about where energy dissipates (what your every post should discuss). A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

First time I have ever considered using the 'ignore poster' feature. 

It's a frakkin' UPS for a TiVo. Just buy one and let this thread die.

Here, have some anecdotal evidence. Not backed up by anything empirical at all: I've had all my TiVo's on UPS's since the day I first bought a Series 2. Thru all the power failures over the last 10+ years, the TiVo's continue to run, never requiring a reboot or losing their recording.

Just do it.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> 365 joules means it uses 122 joules and never more than 265 joules for protection. Meanwhile, how do hundreds of joules avert surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? This is not the first time I asked that question. Asked again because so many have posted without first reading.
> 
> Its entire protection is a near zero number. But as long as APC claim surge protection subjectively, and as long as orangeboy, et al hype those myths, then a majority will believe them. Exact same reasoning also proved Saddam's WMDs.
> 
> ...


This is a jumble of unproved assertions, undocumented references, embedded in a lot of fog.

Even accepting all your numbers (which is giving you the benefit of the doubt), none of them translate to showing Joules of surge protection that can be inferred to be in a TiVo or other consumer electronic device of a similar power consumption (around 35 Watts). You talk of Volts which are not even the correct unit for measuring energy (e.g. Joule) -- thus not comparable to the Back UPS spec. You give one example (1800 VAC for 1 sec) which can be interpreted as energy (up to 1800 Joules), at least the right units. But this is for some "specification for a Seasonic power supply" for which you give not the slightest description or link or reference. Googling "Seasonic power supply" leads to several pages of them at Amazon. The smallest rating I saw was 300 Watts, close to ten times what would be required for a TiVo. So naturally such a supply will have a higher surge protection Joule rating than one in a TiVo.

Quit blowing smoke and subject yourself to the same standards you try to apply to the rest of us! Again I ask: where is your spec that shows superior surge protection built into a TiVo or similar (~35W) consumer appliance?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Westom continues to give alleged quotes without either providing a link or a reference so they can be verified or viewed in context. This is highly unprofessional, thus making it very difficult to "learn from professionals" as he keeps suggesting.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

dlfl said:


> Westom continues to give alleged quotes without either providing a link or a reference so they can be verified or viewed in context. This is highly unprofessional, thus making it very difficult to "learn from professionals" as he keeps suggesting.


And pretty hypocritical. 

I must say Westom's trolling antics sure are making this an active thread!


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> ........I must say Westom's trolling antics sure are making this an active thread!


I'm not sure he is trolling here. I think it's possible he believes what he says and at least some of it (I believe) is technically accurate. Note that he has actually stated early on that a cheap UPS (e.g., Back UPS) will serve the purpose of providing backup power. For me at least, the current discussion is about some fairly technical details of assertions he has made that I find questionable -- all relating to surge protection, not backup.

In particular the questionable assertions are:
1. That the surge protection in a Back UPS is "not better than nothing".
2. That a TiVo (or similar small consumer electronic device, i.e., 35W power consumption) has better built-in surge protection than a Back UPS provides.

Now as to the arrogant, fog-laden, repetitive way he has of saying things.....well everyone has their quirks I guess.


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## mchief (Sep 10, 2005)

My backup system is two gerbils on a treadmill - and my gerbils can beat up your gerbils. So there


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## mblloyd (Feb 11, 2007)

How good is the surge protection inside the TiVo box? 
Well, read the TiVo extended warranty info and you will find, " This service plan protects against operational failure of a covered Product if a failure occurs while connected to a surge protector approved by the Underwriter's Laboratory. Your surge protector may be collected for examination."
What does that mean? Does it imply the built-in TiVo protection is better or worse? Does it mean maybe they think your external protection was made ineffective by numerous hits?
Irregardless, that's an Ohioese term, they take external surge protection into account for an extended warranty claim.
In a two-gerbil supply, is one of the two a designated backup power supplier?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

The main point of a UPS for me is so that I can continue using my electronic devices during a power outage. All my electronics are connected to a UPS. From my TiVos, to my TVs, to my subwoofers, to my receivers, to my PCs, etc.
I have runtime from 2 hours to 19 hours depending on the device and UPS. 
That way I can surf the internet, watch TV etc. Everything I can normally do when there isn't a power outage.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Show us the TiVo spec that says it handles surges?! Yeah, I thought so.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

daveak said:


> Show us the TiVo spec that says it handles surges?! Yeah, I thought so.


Also, if the key to handling surges is a good ground, how the hell _could_ a TiVo - _which uses an ungrounded two connector power cord_ - have better surge resistance than even a crappy external surge protector - _which at least connects to the outlets ground pin, and from there back to the house's earth ground_. (Assuming correct outlet wiring).


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

mblloyd said:


> Irregardless, that's an Ohioese term, they take external surge protection into account for an extended warranty claim.


 Read the fine print in APC warranties. Chock full of fine print exemptions. Many APC warranties have different exemptions. One said a protector from any other company in a house voided the warranty. A latest says warranty is void if no 'whole house' protector on incoming utility wires.

Well, many only post nasty. The only posted spec numbers says that protection is near zero. Just enough so that advertising can hype it into 100% protection. Does anyone actually want to learn what is required for Tivo protection?

Posted was an executive summary. A comparison between useless protection and effective solutions. 100 years of well proven knowledge says, for example, that no protector does protection. Not one. No magic box exists. NIST also says a protector does not do protection. Instead, effective protectors connect to protection:
> What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge,
> but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

In any facility that can never have damage, obscene profit APC products are not used. Instead, less money is spent on superior and well proven solutions. Even direct lightning strikes must not cause damage - even to the protector. Those who believed advertising myths will subvert knowledge with nasty denials. Anger to avoid admitting to their mistake. Hopefully they use the ignore feature.

Others who would rather learn can undermine their negativity. Ask to learn still unposted details from 100 years of well proven science.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

Jonathan_S said:


> Also, if the key to handling surges is a good ground, how the hell _could_ a TiVo - _which uses an ungrounded two connector power cord_ - have better surge resistance than even a crappy external surge protector -


 Already you are making assumptions without first learning facts. For example, a wall receptacle is only a safety ground; not earth ground. Even the National Electrical code is quite clear about this difference. Other electrical concepts such as impedance make this obvious.

Your telco suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. That means every wire inside every incoming cable connect as short as possible to earth before entering the building. Telcos also want electronics distant from the protector - typically as much as 50 meters (150 feet). Separation increases protection. Critical to learning this is a concept called impedance - not to be confused with resistance. Impedance is why the effective protector connects as short as possible to earth. Even sharp bends in that wire compromise protection. Also explains why a wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.

An honest question due to insufficient electrical knowledge. Protection is not about earthing the Tivo. Protection is always about where surge energy dissipates. Your every question is defined by some well proven concepts. Including a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Even the words protect*or* and protect*ion* define different items in a protection 'system'.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I've got it! I've finally got it!

Westom is actually a computer and this thread is a practical example of the "Turing test" for artificial intelligence! In this test a real person and a computer are put in two separate rooms and their only communication is by text entered by keyboard and printed by a teletype (essentially identical to a forum thread). The Turing test is whether the person can tell that the other room doesn't contain a person.

I'll have to say the westom algorithm comes pretty close! However there are some clues. One of them is endless repetition of the same phrases, sentences and paragraphs. Another is sluffing off questions that are beyond its comprehension (e.g., those in post #82).

Well it's been a nice try, but I think we've run this algorithm to its saturation point. We've exhausted the complete range of its responses. So no point in further interaction.


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