# TiVo is only now getting that the seriesId confusion is a data ingestion problem



## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

I just got off the phone with TiVo Executive Customer Relations for the umpteenth time and stepped through a current example of the Modern Family/Expanse/Magicians problem. We read the seriesIds together and I got the guy to acknowledge that TiVo doesn't have a series of one-off lineup issues -- they have a data ingestion problem. 

I'm getting a call back on Thursday with a progress report... If anyone has lineup reports for other shows with the same problem, you can post the IDs here in case more data is useful. I know The Middle is another example.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Thanks for your effort on this. Much appreciated.


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## leswar (Apr 14, 2005)

Thank you. This is interesting.


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## bigguy126 (Sep 4, 2007)

sinanju said:


> I just got off the phone with TiVo Executive Customer Relations for the umpteenth time and stepped through a current example of the Modern Family/Expanse/Magicians problem. We read the seriesIds together and I got the guy to acknowledge that TiVo doesn't have a series of one-off lineup issues -- they have a data ingestion problem.
> 
> I'm getting a call back on Thursday with a progress report... If anyone has lineup reports for other shows with the same problem, you can post the IDs here in case more data is useful. I know The Middle is another example.


Where do you find the series id?


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

kmttg


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## satpro (Jan 9, 2004)

The Amazing Race might be another example since now they are calling it The Amazing Race 29 breaking the old season pass.


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

Nashville on CMT also had this seriesID problem on a weekly basis. I had to call/tweet/email at least five different times about that show as well.

*sinaju*, thanks for taking the time and making the effort to make this issue known to the higher ups. Clearly the data managers still have not gotten to the root of the problem.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Good work. The symptoms make sense in this light.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Good grief. Sinaju, TiVo should give you free products or service for doing their job for them.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

sinanju said:


> I just got off the phone with TiVo Executive Customer Relations for the umpteenth time and stepped through a current example of the Modern Family/Expanse/Magicians problem. We read the seriesIds together and I got the guy to acknowledge that TiVo doesn't have a series of one-off lineup issues -- they have a data ingestion problem.
> 
> I'm getting a call back on Thursday with a progress report... If anyone has lineup reports for other shows with the same problem, you can post the IDs here in case more data is useful. I know The Middle is another example.


And so, does that mean, as I thought could be the case, that TiVo/Rovi is getting bad data from the outside?

By the way, as others have noted, you are a prince/princess (in a good way).


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## jasonander (Jan 9, 2005)

Thank you, I've been tweeting @TivoSupport about the various guide/series issues and they've been absolutely useless. They treat me like an idiot and tell me to create a new OnePass each time. It's sad.


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

They need somebody writing code (SQL etc) that looks for errors each night. For example, impossible first aired dates, a listing for this mornings (4/5/2017 5am) KCET "Death in Paradise" says it is first aired 4/6/2017. If it is on today, it can't be first aired tomorrow.

Then figure out how it happened. Then write code to prevent it from happening. Once the code is done, its done.

They need to do quality assurance of the data.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> And so, does that mean, as I thought could be the case, that TiVo/Rovi is getting bad data from the outside?


No. I think they are mishandling the data that they get. The open switch in the diagnosis is whether the "new" seriesIds that are assigned to shows are (1) brand new seriesIds or (2) seriesIds from similarly named shows. I think #2 is a possibility based on the confusion that was causing Vikings to fail during its previous season, which was obviously name confusion. It would also tend to explain why it happens so frequently with shows like Expanse and Magicians and not others.


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## bigguy126 (Sep 4, 2007)

sinanju said:


> I just got off the phone with TiVo Executive Customer Relations for the umpteenth time and stepped through a current example of the Modern Family/Expanse/Magicians problem. We read the seriesIds together and I got the guy to acknowledge that TiVo doesn't have a series of one-off lineup issues -- they have a data ingestion problem.
> 
> I'm getting a call back on Thursday with a progress report... If anyone has lineup reports for other shows with the same problem, you can post the IDs here in case more data is useful. I know The Middle is another example.


2 more data points that may not be series id problems but are reoccurring none the less.
Bar Rescue - spike tv sun night was a new episode. 1p did not pick it up but was missing description but showed as "new" with a original air date of Sun. 
Showtime sat night 9pm. First airing of movie "Mothers day" guide showed "Showtime programming" just for that 2 hour block. I forced a update Sat eve and it did fill in but with no description or any other info but the title.

BTW, Thanks for taking the time to do this!! We all appreciate it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

NickTheGreat said:


> Thanks for the heads-up. I don't have this problem a lot. That I know of!!!





sinanju said:


> I just got off the phone with TiVo Executive Customer Relations for the umpteenth time and stepped through a current example of the Modern Family/Expanse/Magicians problem. We read the seriesIds together and I got the guy to acknowledge that TiVo doesn't have a series of one-off lineup issues -- they have a data ingestion problem.
> 
> I'm getting a call back on Thursday with a progress report... If anyone has lineup reports for other shows with the same problem, you can post the IDs here in case more data is useful. I know The Middle is another example.


Is this what sometimes causes issues with people? With Modern Family two of my TiVos are scheduled to record form the 1P while one isn't. With the Magicians I have not had any issue with that show yet.

What I don't understand is why I have not had every box affected.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

sinanju said:


> No. I think they are mishandling the data that they get. The open switch in the diagnosis is whether the "new" seriesIds that are assigned to shows are (1) brand new seriesIds or (2) seriesIds from similarly named shows. I think #2 is a possibility based on the confusion that was causing Vikings to fail during its previous season, which was obviously name confusion. It would also tend to explain why it happens so frequently with shows like Expanse and Magicians and not others.


Ah. So Rovi is the one assigning the seriesIds rather than its data source doing so?


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> Ah. So Rovi is the one assigning the seriesIds rather than its data source doing so?


I honestly don't know. I would think so, though, since it would be awfully odd for ABC to suddenly change Modern Family's seriesId mid-season.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

I thought that seriesids were created by gracenote and Rovi separately. That was a bit issue with the transition.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> I thought that seriesids were created by gracenote and Rovi separately. That was a bit issue with the transition.


That is the case. It is Rovi/TiVo that is screwing up.

As to whether or not TiVo recognizes what the real problem is, if so, based on this, they sure as heck haven't communicated that fact to their CSRs.


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## jasonander (Jan 9, 2005)

If you want more examples of messed up series - this happened a while ago with "Once Upon a Time". Tivo/Rovi never fixed it - so you were screwed with the old OnePass and had to create a new one. Somehow they changed the old OnePass to be for the show in Spanish. They also messed up with "Shameless" for a week or two when the latest season started - they used the wrong series ID from the UK instead of the US one. That one eventually got fixed. And it's been mentioned before, but "The Amazing Race" OnePass didn't pickup the latest season of the show, which was identified as "The Amazing Race 29" instead.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

jasonander said:


> If you want more examples of messed up series - this happened a while ago with "Once Upon a Time". Tivo/Rovi never fixed it - so you were screwed with the old OnePass and had to create a new one. Somehow they changed the old OnePass to be for the show in Spanish.


This happened for one of Gordon Ramey's shows on Fox too. Master Chef or Hell's Kitchen. I can't recall which. Had to nuke the old 1P and create a new one. Same time frame, as I was hit by the Once Upon a Time thing at the same time -- Rovi switch over. Think the current mess is related? It's quite a bit distant temporally.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

justen_m said:


> This happened for one of Gordon Ramey's shows on Fox too. Master Chef or Hell's Kitchen. I can't recall which. Had to nuke the old 1P and create a new one. Same time frame, as I was hit by the Once Upon a Time thing at the same time -- Rovi switch over. Think the current mess is related? It's quite a bit distant temporally.


What has "temporarily" got to do with it? These problems are not conversion "hiccups". The Rovi program data creation process is crap.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jth tv said:


> They need somebody writing code (SQL etc) that looks for errors each night. For example, impossible first aired dates, a listing for this mornings (4/5/2017 5am) KCET "Death in Paradise" says it is first aired 4/6/2017. If it is on today, it can't be first aired tomorrow.


..looking for "Comedy Central Programming" instead of "The Daily Show", looking for "To Be Announced" at unexpected times (like prime time), etc...


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## plamumba (Mar 19, 2005)

I don't know how long I am going to put up with Tivo's incompetence. Every change I see from them just breaks things, makes things worse. Tonight my 2 Tivos just skipped recording programs on the todo list with the "not in guide" explanation, though the programs show in the guide. I can't imagine what these people are thinking, or that they bother thinking at all, or are even capable of thinking. I don't need this kind of lousy service at $15 a machine each month. Just awful. This particular failing is relatively new for me and makes the things essentially useless.


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## SteveD (Oct 22, 2002)

Saw the same series id issue with Showtime's "Inside the NFL" this past season. Needed to set up three or four different OnePasses to get all the episodes. The season and episode numbers were all messed up also.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

So, I just got my call from TiVo and I'm told that Engineering has a solution to the seriesId issue and the fix is rolling out within the next 72 hours.

I'm not holding my breath.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

sinanju said:


> So, I just got my call from TiVo and I'm told that Engineering has a solution to the seriesId issue and the fix is rolling out within the next 72 hours.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath.


I'm thinking more like 10 days as it will be delivered by the Easter Bunny.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

sinanju said:


> So, I just got my call from TiVo and I'm told that Engineering has a solution to the seriesId issue and the fix is rolling out within the next 72 hours.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath.


Please don't let it be, eliminating seriesId.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> Please don't let it be, eliminating seriesId.


You're thinking too small. The people, such as myself, who were getting "To be announced" for everything were non-voluntary beta testers of the new s/w.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

What bothers me is that you'd think their employees would be eating their own dog food and would notice these issues and report/fix them. But I think they were outsourced so much that the developers are completely isolated from the daily usage of the product.

BTW Colony season finale on USA got screwed tonight, wasn't set to record but I noticed it in time. I've been lucky, this was maybe the second or third time it's happened for my 1Ps.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> What bothers me is that you'd think their employees would be eating their own dog food and would notice these issues and report/fix them. But I think they were outsourced so much that the developers are completely isolated from the daily usage of the product.


The problem is that the TiVo developers have as much power to do anything about it as a dog does to change his food.



slowbiscuit said:


> BTW Colony season finale on USA got screwed tonight, wasn't set to record but I noticed it in time. I've been lucky, this was maybe the second or third time it's happened for my 1Ps.


That's odd. My existing 1P picked it up with no problem. The TDL entry has the same seriesId as previous episodes.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yeah it's weird, was in my ToDo earlier this week but dropped off somehow (not cancelled by me).

Kinda spooky but not the first time I've seen this. Yet another reason to have to watch the ToDo like a hawk every day, sadly.

I also have a NASCAR ARWL that clearly shows that both races this weekend match the WL (Xfinity on Sat. and Monster Energy on Sun.) but only the Sat. race was scheduled to record. OADs look fine and both show as new, so I dunno why the Sun. race was not scheduled. Had to do it manually.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

As of right now, 6:50pm eastern on 4/8, either the fix isn't in or it isn't working. In the newly corrected guide data, The Expanse on SyFy on 4/12 has the seriesId problem.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

sinanju said:


> As of right now, 6:50pm eastern on 4/8, either the fix isn't in or it isn't working. In the newly corrected guide data, The Expanse on SyFy on 4/12 has the seriesId problem.


Not for me...both episodes are scheduled to record on the same 1P.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

EDIT:

Ok... I take that back too. I forgot that I still had two sets of season passes. 

Having said that, kmttg is seeing the good guide data, but the TiVo itself isn't showing it. Clearly some updating still needs to take place. So, I'll just shut up for a while and see what happens.

Apologies.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

So, I gave up waiting and just reset the program info and to do list and things seem to be good now. The guide is good and the original season passes are pickup up 4/12 and 4/19 airings of Magicians and Expanse.

I suppose we'll see how long it lasts.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

lpwcomp said:


> The problem is that the TiVo developers have as much power to do anything about it as a dog does to change his food.
> 
> That's odd. My existing 1P picked it up with no problem. The TDL entry has the same seriesId as previous episodes.


And it think that is the issue. The problems are not consistent among boxes. In my use I have rarely had any 1P issues. The few I've had, they did not affect all the TiVos I had had a 1P for. I only know of two instances that affected the multiple TiVos I had set up for the same One Passes.

I'm also not constantly looking at my To Do list. I just sit down to watch the weekly recordings of my shows, and they are there. So there could have been issues prior to the recording, but those issues are sorted out by the time the recording is suppose to happen. I don't know if that is the case or not. But I'm not about to constantly check my To Do List.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Heh if I had all of your boxes I wouldn't be checking the TDLs on all of them either.


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## jasonander (Jan 9, 2005)

This bug is also affecting RuPaul's Drag Race on VH1 on 4/21 - new episodes aren't getting picked up by the existing OnePass, and I'm prompted to create a new OnePass if I try to record those episodes. Why do we have to keep on doing TiVo's job for them?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

jasonander said:


> This bug is also affecting RuPaul's Drag Race on VH1 on 4/21 - new episodes aren't getting picked up by the existing OnePass, and I'm prompted to create a new OnePass if I try to record those episodes. Why do we have to keep on doing TiVo's job for them?


Because the new TiVo wants to continue using the same untrained monkeys that Rovi had creating their program information.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> Because the new TiVo wants to continue using the same untrained monkeys that Rovi had creating their program information.


I'm convinced TiVo is turning into a Mechanical Turk. Data ingestion is becoming a completely manual process because their SW just doesn't work.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

sinanju said:


> I'm convinced TiVo is turning into a Mechanical Turk. Data ingestion is becoming a completely manual process because their SW just doesn't work.


I'm still not seeing this. Somehow my One Passes get recorded like they are supposed to. With no intervention by me.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> I'm still not seeing this. Somehow my One Passes get recorded like they are supposed to. With no intervention by me.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


Most of my shows are the same. I guess you're just not recording shows vulnerable to this problem. When the flu goes around, not everyone catches it.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

sinanju said:


> I'm convinced TiVo is turning into a Mechanical Turk. Data ingestion is becoming a completely manual process because their SW just doesn't work.


If you're talking about the s/w on the TiVo, the problem has nothing do with it. It is a *data* problem. The program information is crap. GIGO is in play on the TiVo.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> If you're talking about the s/w on the TiVo, the problem has nothing do with it. It is a *data* problem. The program information is crap. GIGO is in play on the TiVo.


No, I'm talking about the SW on the TiVo mothership that ingests the data and processes it into what shows up on our boxen. The program info may be crap, but somehow Gracenote made and continues to make reasonable sense of it.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

sinanju said:


> No, I'm talking about the SW on the TiVo mothership that ingests the data and processes it into what shows up on our boxen. The program info may be crap, but somehow Gracenote made and continues to make reasonable sense of it.


Yes, the old Rovi. Their data have always been crap. That is the first G in the GIGO.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

sinanju said:


> Having said that, kmttg is seeing the good guide data, but the TiVo itself isn't showing it. Clearly some updating still needs to take place.


I'm not exactly sure what this means, but it sounds like you were in a situation that has existed for as long as I've been using Tivos, or at least close to it..

The to do list and the guide data (e.g. view upcoming or view by time) can be inconsistent with each other. e.g. you have show X in the to do list at 8pm tonight and you go into to do list, go into that show, view upcoming and DON'T see that same episode listed. USUALLY this happens further in the future, and it fixes itself by the time the real airing happens... but not always... and it happens (and has always happened) once in a while. I'm pretty sure I had it happen with an episode of MTV's RW/RR challenge show that's on now.. (I haven't really watched it in years but still record it..) one recording ended up being a different show, and I'm pretty sure at one point I saw it inconsistent in view upcoming, but I just let it go anyway.


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

sinanju, is there a specialized direct number/hotline or email address that we can report these ongoing erroneous guide data issues to?


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

headless chicken said:


> sinanju, is there a specialized direct number/hotline or email address that we can report these ongoing erroneous guide data issues to?


There is not. There is the standard support line, which if you call when it first opens you may get someone in the CONUS, otherwise it goes to the Philippines. There are lineup reports, which tend to receive attention far to late for guide data issues. Finally, there is the line for pains-in-the-ass like me. I'd give it to you, but it sounds like there are exactly three people on point at that number and I'd hate to make their lives more miserable than TiVo already has. I can say that if you call or file a report for every single problem and follow up with disgruntled comments on Twitter (name TiVo, TiVosupport and tivodesign) and direct messages to TiVo on Facebook, you will eventually get a call from someone at that number. They do not, however, specialize in this particular problem.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Per "TiVo Margret"/Margret Schmidt's earlier post here:


> If anyone else is experiencing lineup issues, please send the specifics to me at [email protected] with the subject '*Lineup issue <zip code>*'.
> 
> If you see mis-matched episodes and seasons, you can also report those to me at [email protected] with the subject '*Data issue <show name>*'.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

Mikeguy said:


> Per "TiVo Margret"/Margret Schmidt's earlier post here:


I'd love it if that worked. I've been a fan of the brand for ages and really just want things to be right. Sadly, lately, the only thing that gets a response is calling out the ongoing disaster in public. Griping on Facebook and Twitter is what has worked.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I think that you're right, the public exposure sometimes can help and be a good thing. Margret can also be a good conveyance point and solver of unique issues that indeed can be solved in the short-term.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> I'm still not seeing this. Somehow my One Passes get recorded like they are supposed to. With no intervention by me.


After working fine for months I've had two 1Ps fail in the last two weeks - Colony last week and now The Expanse this week. Caught the Colony issue last week and scheduled it manually but missed ep 12 of Expanse not recording this week - history says it was a dupe therefore not recorded. It sure doesn't look like a dupe in the guide and ep 13 is scheduled to record next week, but now I'll have to verify that it doesn't mysteriously disappear from the ToDo a couple of days before it records too.

So all of a sudden some of my 1Ps are no longer reliable.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> After working fine for months I've had two 1Ps fail in the last two weeks - Colony last week and now The Expanse this week. Caught the Colony issue last week and scheduled it manually but missed ep 12 of Expanse not recording this week - history says it was a dupe therefore not recorded. It sure doesn't look like a dupe in the guide and ep 13 is scheduled to record next week, but now I'll have to verify that it doesn't mysteriously disappear from the ToDo a couple of days before it records too.
> 
> So all of a sudden some of my 1Ps are no longer reliable.


There had been some reports of a SeriesID issues with the Expanse earlier this month but those were fixed with updates around April 8th.

The Expanse (SyFy)

It recorded correctly here so not sure why yours would show as a duplicate which would indicate that it thought it had already recorded that episode (I do show duplicate for the 12:06am showing for example).

Scott


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> After working fine for months I've had two 1Ps fail in the last two weeks - Colony last week and now The Expanse this week. Caught the Colony issue last week and scheduled it manually but missed ep 12 of Expanse not recording this week - history says it was a dupe therefore not recorded. It sure doesn't look like a dupe in the guide and ep 13 is scheduled to record next week, but now I'll have to verify that it doesn't mysteriously disappear from the ToDo a couple of days before it records too.
> 
> So all of a sudden some of my 1Ps are no longer reliable.


S2E12 of "The Expanse" is being shown again at 0500EDT on 04/17.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yeah, had to schedule it manually. My 1P which formerly worked fine would not record ep12 but does show that it will record ep13. I have no idea what's going on.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yeah, had to schedule it manually. My 1P which formerly worked fine would not record ep12 but does show that it will record ep13. I have no idea what's going on.


You have both of the showings the original night with Duplicate as the reason it didn't record?

If it already thought it had recorded it, then this latest showing would also not record if you had it set to new only.

Scott


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> After working fine for months I've had two 1Ps fail in the last two weeks - Colony last week and now The Expanse this week. Caught the Colony issue last week and scheduled it manually but missed ep 12 of Expanse not recording this week - history says it was a dupe therefore not recorded. It sure doesn't look like a dupe in the guide and ep 13 is scheduled to record next week, but now I'll have to verify that it doesn't mysteriously disappear from the ToDo a couple of days before it records too.
> 
> So all of a sudden some of my 1Ps are no longer reliable.


I don't record Colony, but I do record the Expanse. So far I've had no issues with the Expanse 1P.

Episode 13 of this season shows as recording on Wednesday, 4/19, at 10:03PM.
Which matches the scheduled airing time shown at the syfy.com schedule.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

sinanju said:


> No. I think they are mishandling the data that they get. The open switch in the diagnosis is whether the "new" seriesIds that are assigned to shows are (1) brand new seriesIds or (2) seriesIds from similarly named shows. I think #2 is a possibility based on the confusion that was causing Vikings to fail during its previous season, which was obviously name confusion. It would also tend to explain why it happens so frequently with shows like Expanse and Magicians and not others.


I am confuse here, The Magicians and The Expanse have been recording just fine for me. What happened?


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Johncv said:


> I am confuse here, The Magicians and The Expanse have been recording just fine for me. What happened?


The issue that's shown up for these has been fixed before the shows air which is why you haven't seen any issues. Due to general Rovi guide data issues, people are watching their ToDo lists very carefully and noticing that upcoming shows generally 7-12 days out aren't scheduled to record. In these cases, the episodes were given a different SeriesId which meant that your normal 1P wouldn't pick them up. The unknown question is would these errors have been caught and fixed by Rovi/TiVo before the air date without users here reporting them.

Scott


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

HerronScott said:


> You have both of the showings the original night with Duplicate as the reason it didn't record?
> 
> If it already thought it had recorded it, then this latest showing would also not record if you had it set to new only.


Yep, dupe was the reason even though those eps had never been recorded. And yeah, original air date is what I'm talking about. They were simply taken out of the ToDo a couple of days before airing and I have no idea why.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

The Daily Show was fine last night, but is broken for at least a few days, starting tonight.. it's "Comedy Central Programming" again.

I finally made a OP for it months ago when I had missed some episodes..

(I'm WAY behind, still on pre-election episodes.. yes, they're still funny when I am slowly trying to catch up!)


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