# Is the TiVO Edge their last DVR hardware model?



## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

I currently have 2 lifetime Roamios and honestly BARELY use them. They are used to record some local cable access channels a few times per month for a project & that is it. I plug/unplug when needed.

otherwise, I just use my Nvidia shield, FireTV and Roku for my daily TV watching needs. The Roamios have been rock solid in performance & I have no plans to upgrade. Plus, cable card requirement has come to an end so I'm not interested in sinking money into a potentially dying piece of hardware. 

I also see how others are using streaming devices more and more. It makes me wonder if the TiVO Edge will be their last traditional DVR. Hell, even TiVo introduced their own Google TV based dongle. And haven't they been bought out several times as well (I could be wrong on this)

What are the chances TiVO will have another traditional DVR?


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

Tivo says in this article that they will be launching new products in the coming months:
TiVo will learn your voice, and what you like to watch


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Yeah, but TiVo has moved on to the TiVo Stream, their version of a streaming device like a Roku type device, but with NO ability to view content from your TiVo DVR. IMHO, I sincerely doubt TiVo will ever produce another true DVR product, especially with the death of the Cable Card requirement, there just does not seem to be a market for future TiVo DVR's outside of cable TV. The TiVo management seems to be going all-in, hail-Mary for the lousy TiVo Stream.

What's a bit bitter to me is that TiVo was developing Maverick (did I spell it right?), which seemed to a hybrid of traditional DVR with Cloud DVR, and that device may have been more successful than continuing with just the local DVR tech, but the new owners of TiVo killed that project, and instead brought us the ad shoving down your throat Edge. Truly, the Series 5 Roamios were the last really good DVR's TiVo ever produced.

So, my opinion is yes, I really do think that Edge is the last DVR of ANY kind TiVo will ever produce. It is sad to see such a good product to down the drain. I'm certain others will comment.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

buscuitboy said:


> What are the chances TiVO will have another traditional DVR?


It is possible, but it depends on a number of factors.

TiVo, themselves, are basically out of the hardware design business. That is now done by 3rd parties based on specifications from the (typically small/medium) cable operators that are using TiVo as their customer STB (typically with a UI that brings the operator's name front and center rather than TiVo, but that is primarily just skinning of the UI), and based on what the cable operators want (how many tuners, how much capability, etc.). The consumer Edge primarily exists because the cable operators wanted/needed a next gen box, Arris did the design/manufacturer based on those requirements, and TiVo was able to take advantage of the hardware to release a consumer device based on that work. It should be noted that TiVo currently offers two different OS variants to cable operators, the "classic" TiVo (which is basically the consumer OS), and a newer one based on Android TV which brings the operator (and the TiVo) experience front and center (which can not be released to consumers) and can run Android TV apps that the operator allows. Some operators will remain in the classic variant for quite some time, so the classic variant was ported to the next gen hardware, and TiVo essentially got a consumer device (the Edge) without substantial investment (very minimal additional work to create different plastic and consumer boxing along with their TiVo UI).

At some point, the cable operators, should they continue to offer video services, may want a next next gen box (newer, faster, bigger, cheaper???), and will work with TiVo and a hardware partner (perhaps Arris). And when that happens, and if TiVo still sees a potential consumer market, TiVo may release that new box (the Sharper Edge?)

That is a lot of maybes and possibilities. Some cable operators have, or are considering, exiting the video services offerings (telling people to just subscribe to an OTT). Some cable operators are moving to a pure IPTV play rather than linear QAM which the consumer TiVo can not support due to licensing (the operator units can support IPTV for the operators if the operator requests it). And the sales of consumer DVRs has plummeted (a combination of individuals shaving the cord due to pricing and other options, and the operator STB arguably being somewhat equivalent and typically adequate in functionality and pricing to a consumer TiVo, and as mentioned the future move to IPTV) making potential market numbers smaller and smaller.


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## ashipkowski (Oct 8, 2008)

mrsean said:


> Tivo says in this article that they will be launching new products in the coming months:
> TiVo will learn your voice, and what you like to watch


Worth explicitly noting that the article immediately focuses on Tivo doing OTT offerings rather than DVRs after indicating new HW will launch this feature:

The new feature isn't launching into existing TiVo products just yet, and instead will be woven into new devices that the company says will launch in the coming months.

"We believe that with our state-of-the-art voice authentication technology combined with TiVo's expertise in the OTT video space [...]"​


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

Series3Sub said:


> What's a bit bitter to me is that TiVo was developing Maverick (did I spell it right?), which seemed to a hybrid of traditional DVR with Cloud DVR, and that device may have been more successful than continuing with just the local DVR tech


One of the issues about the maverick was that it was designed to upload your recordings to the cloud. Which may have worked adequately for those with a higher upload speeds, but otherwise not so much. What (sounded) like the initial plan (at least according to some patent applications) was that if there were sufficient numbers of consumers in the same locality the device could upload your "share" of the recording (if 10 people recorded Survivor in your location you only would need to upload 1/10th of the show and somehow meld the pieces together). However, without large sales of the device such sharing was not going to work well in all locations, and there were some additional issues about whether one can (legally) share parts of recordings with others, or whether everyone needed to have their own unique recording for someone like TiVo without explicit contracts with the content providers (for the cable operators, or the OTTs, with a direct contract with the content providers, those things could be negotiated).

In any case, TiVo by that point, had pivoted to primarily being a cable operator solution provider, not a consumer device provider. The maverick had no future in the operator market.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

ashipkowski said:


> Worth explicitly noting that the article immediately focuses on Tivo doing OTT offerings rather than DVRs after indicating new HW will launch this feature:
> 
> The new feature isn't launching into existing TiVo products just yet, and instead will be woven into new devices that the company says will launch in the coming months.
> 
> "We believe that with our state-of-the-art voice authentication technology combined with TiVo's expertise in the OTT video space [...]"​


Yeah - the statement was that new devices are launching. That doesn't mean TiVo is launching them. Devices can, I'm sure, license the feature just as they can license the metadata and other IP offerings.

As mentioned above - TiVo is already out of the hardware game. That was well documented on these very forums. A hardware company (likely Arris) can manufacture and use the TiVo UI and there is always a chance one of those models could get TiVo's name slapped on it - but there is no TiVo hardware division anymore. It's tough to justify a continued investment for any company in a retail offering that has fewer and fewer users each year -- and that trend isn't going to reverse-course (just like cable/satellite subs aren't going to reverse their trend).

Companies that focus on hardware are best represented now by small niche companies like Tablo and Silicon Dust that appeal to a small, niche group of users. No company that has stockholders is going to put anymore resources into a hardware DVR with a shrinking userbase.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

CommunityMember said:


> One of the issues about the maverick was that it was designed to upload your recordings to the cloud. Which may have worked adequately for those with a higher upload speeds, but otherwise not so much. What (sounded) like the initial plan (at least according to some patent applications) was that if there were sufficient numbers of consumers in the same locality the device could upload your "share" of the recording (if 10 people recorded Survivor in your location you only would need to upload 1/10th of the show and somehow meld the pieces together). However, without large sales of the device such sharing was not going to work well in all locations, and there were some additional issues about whether one can (legally) share parts of recordings with others, or whether everyone needed to have their own unique recording for someone like TiVo without explicit contracts with the content providers (for the cable operators, or the OTTs, with a direct contract with the content providers, those things could be negotiated).
> 
> In any case, TiVo by that point, had pivoted to primarily being a cable operator solution provider, not a consumer device provider. The maverick had no future in the operator market.


Thanks for the info. I never got much info into the particulars of the challenges of Mavrik, although I had heard that limited internet access speed was a big concern.

However, I am quite confident that in regards to the "sharing" of any of the COPYRIGHT video (even OTA because it too is copyright content--we just don't pay a subscription fee to view it) for ANY purpose (even for efficiency sake) is _absolutely_ illegal--without an explicit agreement allowing it, and copyright holders of the programming content have NEVER agreed to such use. Courts have ruled time and again, and often citing the landmark Sony vs. Universal Studios SCOTUS decision that "Personal" and "Private" are key. This includes a number of things such as USER initiation of recording content; USER initiation on almost every level; and such recordings used by ONLY the individual(s) who initiated such recordings for their own PERSONAL and PRIVATE use, and even PLACE shifting is allowed, so long as the copyright content being placed shifted is not "In The Clear" and ONLY to the individual who recorded it or LIVE content place shifting from their OWN access to that content (from their own home via legal access to the content either no restrictions OTA or cable or sat subscription for "pay TV" content).

You might be thinking that Areo fit these requirements PERFECTLY, and it did! The majority of SCOTUS abandoned logic and jumped many spaces over to the "Areo did not PAY for this content" view, and the law does allow for OTA's to negotiate for retransmission's rights or Must Carry. But that law never, in any form cited, not even mentioned anything close to an Areo-like service: one where user initiation is remote (the antennas were remote controlled by viewers many miles away and even turend in such a direction that reception was impossible when viewier ended their session among other USER INITATED and conrolled steps) and passes all the "tests".

The correct ruling--IMHO--would have been the minority's--including the late Justice Anton Scalia--who stated that although Areo is a "rubes-Goldberg" scheme, and the justice did NOT like Areo's clever way of avoiding paying for the content, it was nonetheless LEGAL because it passed every test applied--and EVERY LOWER COURT also found Areo to pass every test applied. The solution was for Congress to settle. In other words, the broadcasters need to go to Congress to make Areo illegal. That would have been the correct decision and I have every confidence that NAB would have quickly gotten Congress to pass such a law that would have resulted Areo shutting down, anyway. But the point here is that the SCOTUS ruling was bad and presumptuous.

Back on the matter of "shared" recordings: One case decision was a cable company (I think it was Cable Vision) and its planned cloud DVR concept wanted to use just ONE recording of content (TV show, etc.) and have it accessible by many different subscribers who had _previously_ initiated the request for the recording of content to be kept on the server for the sake of efficiency. The viewers would still have to go through all the hopes of initiation to "request" the recording, but would only have to access the single recorded content used by all for playback.

While this was a certainly reasonable solution, a ruling was handed down explicitly forbidding such a scheme, even though its purpose was to allow efficiency and nothing more (and in no way harm nor cause loss to the copyright holders) because such sharing eliminates the Personal and Private PHYSICAL recording that can then be accessed by ONLY by that subscriber who initiated the recording. Therefore, the cable company would have to provide each subscriber its very own secure space on the server that only that subscriber can access, and the cable company would have to deposit multiple copies of the requested recordings of TV shows--in other words hundreds or thousands of recordings of the exact same TV show into each individual portion of the server accessed only by that subscriber. I believe this is how the vMVPD's like YTTV, SlingTV, etc. provide for their cloud DVR service.

It seems silly to have to have all those duplicate recordings taking up room on the server even if access is ONLY granted by those who requested the recording be made, but the LAW--or how it is interpreted--seems to demand that for Fair Use to prevail, the actions and copies MUST be on an entirely individual, Personal and Private basis, even in HOW and WHERE that recording is to be stored and forbidding any notion of "sharing" even securely for efficiency sake. Of course, at some point, I would think that Congress can make such limited and secure "sharing" of copyright content that otherwise meets all the requirements of Fair Use legal, and courts would likely approve such a law if it were challenged, but nobody seems interested in a fight for such a law until the copyright owners are willing to go along with it, and in the future, they may be willing to.

Oh, well, I guess TiVo's business model was just not for the long-run. I will say that part of the problem as I've heard from people inside the MVPD business is that TiVo always required MVPD's to PAY ALL COSTS AND R&D and REQUIRED AMOUNT OF PROMOTION on top of a monthly licensing fee for each TiVo, and this is why TiVo was very rarely adopted as MVPD's DVR of choice, more so than any challenges posed by cable tech companies like Scientific Atlanta, Motorola, etc. because TiVo was just too damn expensive, and TiVo refused to share any of the costs.

Sorry for the long post, it is just that a lot of people I've talked to can't quite accept or wrap their heads around the fact that the law requires multiple copies of the exact same aired TV show in hundreds, thousands, or millions of separate and PRIVATE portions of the servers, and that is how copyright holders WANT IT, apparently.


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## mrsean (May 15, 2006)

I wonder if Tivo/Arris would do a refresh of the Edge and add a 3.5" internal drive. This would be a good way to increase sales by getting people to move away from Roamio.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

mrsean said:


> I wonder if Tivo/Arris would do a refresh of the Edge and add a 3.5" internal drive. This would be a good way to increase sales by getting people to move away from Roamio.


(Physically) large HDDs are a pretty much dead product space except for the hyperscaler nearline and cold storage market space. And the 2.5" HDD space is collapsing (the price (and improved endurance) of various forms of flash have practically eliminated the market).

I would not be surprised that if there is a next generation device refresh (with local DVR storage(*)) it will use flash storage, as that eliminates one of the most common failure points(**) (and having DVRs fail in the home is a large cost for the cable operator (not only is it a customer satisfaction issue, there is the entire exchange process, which can easily cost a few hundred dollars after all the process and overheads are included)).

However, perhaps that guess is all wrong. If you are confident about the sales volume of a 3.5" drive alternative, and you are willing to purchase some tens of thousands of units, and then try to sell and support them into the market (i.e. it is your money on the line), you should probably talk to TiVo (and Arris). While individual onsies and twosies of roamio's are just not going to get anyone interested (which is almost certainly why you don't see TiVo (Arris) rushing into the market), if there is a real market (your money) involved, it could happen.

(*) Remember that the design/market is about the cable operator, and consumers will see something only if operators want it built and then TiVo can throw their plastic and UI on it. Some cable operators are looking at the major player (Comcast/Cox/Charter) models of a small amount of local storage to handle live pause, and a few shows time shifted by a few hours, and the rest being cloud based content delivery, or even pure cloud based content delivery, meaning such devices might not even need local storage at all.

(**) While everything fails eventually, the HDD is often the first to go, followed by the fan, another mechanical device. And if you eliminate the HDD and the heat load you may even be able to use a fan-less case which allows the cable operator to offer a smaller box, or puck, or dongle, which is differently appealing.


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## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

CommunityMember said:


> (Physically) large HDDs are a pretty much dead product space except for the hyperscaler nearline and cold storage market space. And the 2.5" HDD space is collapsing (the price (and improved endurance) of various forms of flash have practically eliminated the market).
> 
> I would not be surprised that if there is a next generation device refresh (with local DVR storage(*)) it will use flash storage, as that eliminates one of the most common failure points(**) (and having DVRs fail in the home is a large cost for the cable operator (not only is it a customer satisfaction issue, there is the entire exchange process, which can easily cost a few hundred dollars after all the process and overheads are included)).
> 
> ...


The Roamio Plus/Pro design is near perfect. They should go back to that box and just update the internals.


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## kdmorse (Jan 29, 2001)

Series3Sub said:


> It seems silly to have to have all those duplicate recordings taking up room on the server even if access is ONLY granted by those who requested the recording be made, but the LAW--or how it is interpreted--seems to demand that for Fair Use to prevail, the actions and copies MUST be on an entirely individual, Personal and Private basis, even in HOW and WHERE that recording is to be stored and forbidding any notion of "sharing" even securely for efficiency sake. Of course, at some point, I would think that Congress can make such limited and secure "sharing" of copyright content that otherwise meets all the requirements of Fair Use legal, and courts would likely approve such a law if it were challenged, but nobody seems interested in a fight for such a law until the copyright owners are willing to go along with it, and in the future, they may be willing to.


Which is an absurdity which leads to an even greater absurdity if you play the tape all the way to the end.

If done right, all of those individual personalized recordings would be bit for bit identical. You store them on a storage platform that has built in deduplication completely transparent to the user (in this case the 'user' being the cable company), all they know is *wow, I'm getting an amazing space savings ratio on my stored data!*. And now you have the exact same result as was originally denied, one physical copy. 20 personal copies in all the ways that matter, but only one copy's worth of bits on the disk. Which way would the courts rule in that case? - I have absolutely no idea....

I would bet good money that the answer would be that each persons personal copy would have to be in some way tainted with their identity, to prevent that from happening, possibly encrypted on a per 'personal recording' basis. And that just makes baby I/T Jesus cry.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> At some point, the cable operators, should they continue to offer video services, may want a next next gen box (newer, faster, bigger, cheaper???), and will work with TiVo and a hardware partner (perhaps Arris). And when that happens, and if TiVo still sees a potential consumer market, TiVo may release that new box (the Sharper Edge?)


Yeah. A few years ago, I predicted that the Bolt would be the final model retail CableCARD DVR that TiVo ever released but they proved me wrong with the Edge. But, as you say, the Edge likely was only released because Arris wanted an updated (or simply cheaper to produce) hardware platform to sell to cable operators, and that new platform got repurposed on the retail side as the Edge.

But at this point, it's really hard to see TiVo and Arris bothering with a future model CableCARD DVR for either cable TV operators or the retail market. The small-to-mid-sized operators that issue TiVos to their customers are pretty much all now shifting to managed IPTV to replace their traditional QAM-based cable TV service and/or they're nudging customers toward pairing third-party OTT cable TV services like YouTube TV and Sling with their broadband service. There just can't be many potential sales to be made any more among cable TV operators, I'd think.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Series3Sub said:


> What's a bit bitter to me is that TiVo was developing Maverick (did I spell it right?), which seemed to a hybrid of traditional DVR with Cloud DVR, and that device may have been more successful than continuing with just the local DVR tech, but the new owners of TiVo killed that project, and instead brought us the ad shoving down your throat Edge. Truly, the Series 5 Roamios were the last really good DVR's TiVo ever produced.


IMO, the most important defining feature of the Maverik wasn't the option to store recordings in the cloud but rather the fact that it was a headless network-connected DVR that would be accessed via a TiVo app on popular streaming devices like Apple TV, Fire TV and Android TV. In other words, a direct competitor to Tablo, which I think has surpassed TiVo as the most popular, easy-to-use OTA DVR solution in today's streaming era.

I guess it's possible (though unlikely) that if the TiVo Stream 4K sold well enough they might follow it up with something similar to Maverik/Tablo. It would integrate directly into the TiVo Stream app on their streaming dongle. They could even release that app for Fire TV (since that platform is also Android-based), which would greatly increase the number of potential buyers for their headless DVR accessory.

But as I say, that's doubtful. The streamer-connected OTA DVR market is small, and TiVo would be competing against the already-established leaders: Tablo, Fire TV Recast and HDHomeRun/Channels. Just doesn't seem like a big enough potential market for a publicly-traded corporation like Xperi/TiVo to even bother with.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

NashGuy said:


> IMO, the most important defining feature of the Maverik wasn't the option to store recordings in the cloud but rather the fact that it was a headless network-connected DVR that would be accessed via a TiVo app on popular streaming devices like Apple TV, Fire TV and Android TV. In other words, a direct competitor to Tablo, which I think has surpassed TiVo as the most popular, easy-to-use OTA DVR solution in today's streaming era.
> 
> I guess it's possible (though unlikely) that if the TiVo Stream 4K sold well enough they might follow it up with something similar to Maverik/Tablo. It would integrate directly into the TiVo Stream app on their streaming dongle. They could even release that app for Fire TV (since that platform is also Android-based), which would greatly increase the number of potential buyers for their headless DVR accessory.
> 
> But as I say, that's doubtful. The streamer-connected OTA DVR market is small, and TiVo would be competing against the already-established leaders: Tablo, Fire TV Recast and HDHomeRun/Channels. Just doesn't seem like a big enough potential market for a publicly-traded corporation like Xperi/TiVo to even bother with.


Yeah, Maverik having the Fire TV Recast sort of feature would have been great, and I like the idea of the FireTV Recast functioning that way, it is just too bad that there are a few things that Amazon would really need to improve for me to buy one. However, it really is the ONLY option to TiVo if one wants to record OTA-- I mean without the larger investment in the other alternatives like Tablo, etc. Recast TV's ONE PRICE, no other costs, even for EPG, is the pricing model I really care about, and I already have FireTV's as our preferred connected device, so $0 in additional costs there.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

CommunityMember said:


> (Physically) large HDDs are a pretty much dead product space except for the hyperscaler nearline and cold storage market space. And the 2.5" HDD space is collapsing (the price (and improved endurance) of various forms of flash have practically eliminated the market).
> 
> I would not be surprised that if there is a next generation device refresh (with local DVR storage(*)) it will use flash storage, as that eliminates one of the most common failure points(**) (and having DVRs fail in the home is a large cost for the cable operator (not only is it a customer satisfaction issue, there is the entire exchange process, which can easily cost a few hundred dollars after all the process and overheads are included)).
> 
> ...


Well, there is the flip side of that coin: HDD's still cheaper, and likely really cheaper in bulk. Many MSO's these days have you bring in the DVR for an exchange, so no cost of a truck-roll--billed to the subscriber, unless a subscriber insists. Sometimes you can get the truck roll fee credited, if you yell loud enough.

As far as failure, considering the almost never ending work as a DVR, SSD's would indeed likely fail sooner, and without warning--unlike HDD's, along with SSD's being more prone to errors on the read, and unless one invests in the Samsung EVO (or PRO, but not the cheap QVO), one will find a many pages or cells marked as unusable over time, and then, even, failure. That SSD can be resurrected wit the right tools, but that trick of revival aint helping reduce problems with the the subscriber's DVR. HDD's still have their appeal and even preference in many applications, but are rather ill-suited for DVR use. SSD's can be a value in the limited use as a boot drive, where frequent write and re-write of the HDD data drive is relatively rare, or, at least, minimal in comparison to the data drive.

Of course, Flash memory is used for a great many DVR's and other devices for the Firmware to be stored because these are re-written very infrequently, but even the memory for these is not very much (at some point it is the limit of the Flash memory that can dictate number of features on a DVR and sufficient memory left-over for updates) mostly because of the COST, even at bulk, but multiplied by hundreds of thousands for example, while some additional software can be subsequently loaded on the HDD (especially the EPG data), but the Firmware residing on the Flash is key to DVR.

While I like SSD's (and use a few), their flaws are still too much to invest as a data drive and certainly too much as a drive for a DVR, even before we get to the whole limited writes and rewrites, and DVR's are designed to write and rewrite--constantly. Also the QUALITY of a branded SSD is often too low, with the exception of Samsung's EVO and Pro SSD's. I think MSO's would have far more failures deploying SSD's in subscribers' DVR's than they would HDD's. However, I have confidence that the current limitations of SSD's will be overcome not too long from now, or an even better storage technology than either HDD's or SSD's will be developed.


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

I'm sure TiVo will partner with Xfinity to offer IPTV services. If Channels can do it (albeit not the same way), I'm sure they can develop it.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Series3Sub said:


> Yeah, Maverik having the Fire TV Recast sort of feature would have been great, and I like the idea of the FireTV Recast functioning that way, it is just too bad that there are a few things that Amazon would really need to improve for me to buy one. However, it really is the ONLY option to TiVo if one wants to record OTA-- I mean without the larger investment in the other alternatives like Tablo, etc. Recast TV's ONE PRICE, no other costs, even for EPG, is the pricing model I really care about, and I already have FireTV's as our preferred connected device, so $0 in additional costs there.


Well, there's Tablo, but yes, it's more expensive than Fire TV Recast. The Tablo Dual Lite costs $150, lifetime guide subscription (which stays with the person, not the device, BTW) is another $150. Then you're gonna spend close to $50 on a 1 TB USB hard drive. So that's about $350. Meanwhile the 2-tuner Recast with 500 GB hard drive costs $230.

Channels DVR with an HDHomeRun tuner is probably the most polished, overall highest-quality OTA DVR experience available now. But they don't offer lifetime service. Cheapest you're gonna get is buying it at $80 per year.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

NashGuy said:


> Well, there's Tablo, but yes, it's more expensive than Fire TV Recast. The Tablo Dual Lite costs $150, lifetime guide subscription (which stays with the person, not the device, BTW) is another $150. Then you're gonna spend close to $50 on a 1 TB USB hard drive. So that's about $350. Meanwhile the 2-tuner Recast with 500 GB hard drive costs $230.
> 
> Channels DVR with an HDHomeRun tuner is probably the most polished, overall highest-quality OTA DVR experience available now. But they don't offer lifetime service. Cheapest you're gonna get is buying it at $80 per year.


Thanks for the details, pretty much what I had researched a few years ago. I'll take the FireTV Recast for its lower overall price and _adequate_ capabilities (I don't care about recoding to 720P nor it few glitches), and Amazon aint going out of business for at least a few years . Bezos can afford to pay for the EPG data as he makes almost all of his money from sales of real "things" on his web store and just as much--if not more--with his AWS side of the business. Auto commercial skip is nice, but I'm not too lazy that I can't press the skip button a few times--forth and back. Recast is the only device I would consider if they pull the rug from under us and no longer support retail TiVo's. I don't think that would happen for a little while, anyway.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Series3Sub said:


> Recast is the only device I would consider if they pull the rug from under us and no longer support retail TiVo's. I don't think that would happen for a little while, anyway.


Your retail TiVo will continue to receive guide data and be functional for years to come. I mean, sure, TiVo might stop selling retail DVRs any day now (seriously, who knows) but they create the guide data themselves and will continue to run their servers to give it to their cable operator partners, so there's no reason they would invite a huge class action lawsuit from retail owners with "lifetime" service by suddenly refusing to serve them guide data too.

Now, all that said, it's possible (though I wouldn't say probable) that we see the quality of the TiVo DVR experience degrade over time. Pre-roll ads and ads in the TiVo UI might eventually become unavoidable on all retail DVRs with lifetime service -- they already have your money, right? How else are they going to continue to monetize you?


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

Which dies first? CableCard, ATSC 1.0, or TiVo/Rovio guide data delivery?


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

NashGuy said:


> Your retail TiVo will continue to receive guide data and be functional for years to come. I mean, sure, TiVo might stop selling retail DVRs any day now (seriously, who knows) but they create the guide data themselves and will continue to run their servers to give it to their cable operator partners, so there's no reason they would invite a huge class action lawsuit from retail owners with "lifetime" service by suddenly refusing to serve them guide data too.
> 
> Now, all that said, it's possible (though I wouldn't say probable) that we see the quality of the TiVo DVR experience degrade over time. Pre-roll ads and ads in the TiVo UI might eventually become unavoidable on all retail DVRs with lifetime service -- they already have your money, right? How else are they going to continue to monetize you?


Class Action suit would not be possible because of "Arbitration" clause--and Congress passed the law permitting it to replace action in courts of law, so there really is no OUT for us on that matter. Further, I remember reading all sorts of conditions to all sorts of presumed services, including Lifetime, and clauses about essentially having no recourse should they, essentially, stop the TiVo service. I had read all the TOS and agreements years ago, so I concede poor memory.

However, there is one way TiVo could be liable, and that is if they cease providing the TiVo service very soon after selling their last in inventory DVR units and charge their fees. That could be construed as fraud and invite action (fines and/or payments to qualifying subscribers) from the Federal Trade Commission, from which TiVo has no protection. So, I think the clock will start ticking as soon as TiVo officially stops selling retail DVR's. The question is how long after that will TiVo be protected from any attempted legal action leading to arbitration, where I think WE have to pay costs if WE lose.

Don't put it past the patent company where TiVo has been moved, to just be cheap and cease the TiVo service to retail DVR's (after appropriate time it is safe to do so avoiding FTC action), and just save a few pennies to serve only MSO DVR's. Please, there are companies who think and act like this. The cost of supporting Retail DVR's is not $0. There is, however little, a cost to supporting retail DVR along with the MSO's, especially since the MSO's likely have, however slight, different software/UI compared to the variety with retail DVR"s, so focusing on coding costs for just the MSO DVR's does represent more than a little savings. TiVo could likely lay-off some people who are not needed anymore because TiVo only has to care for the MSO platform, and labor costs are HUGE for any company.

Thanks for the consolation; I appreciate it. However, I don't think any abandoning of TiVo DVR's is imminent, but might occur after a year or so after selling its last in inventory retail DVR--that is just my IMHO--but it could be 2+ years after that, but I do not believe it will be "many years to come." IMHO, if TiVo could do so, they would abandon retail DVR's today, but they have sold and are still selling Edge DVR's, so we are safe for now. What is ironic is that if TiVo had not forced the advertising when playing back a recording, they most likely would be completely or near out of the inventory of the Edge because long-time TiVo users would have bought them in big enough numbers.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

powrcow said:


> Which dies first? CableCard, ATSC 1.0, or TiVo/Rovio guide data delivery?


CableCard, of course. ATSC 1.0 will still be the reality for a great many stations across the nation and even in many DMA's. Adoption of ATSC 3.0 is NOT mandated, and a fair number of broadcasters don't like the additional costs.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

powrcow said:


> Which dies first? CableCard, ATSC 1.0, or TiVo/Rovio guide data delivery?


None of the above, the answer is cable delivered over QAM.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Series3Sub said:


> Thanks for the consolation; I appreciate it. However, I don't think any abandoning of TiVo DVR's is imminent, but might occur after a year or so after selling its last in inventory retail DVR--that is just my IMHO--but it could be 2+ years after that, but I do not believe it will be "many years to come." IMHO, if TiVo could do so, they would abandon retail DVR's today, but they have sold and are still selling Edge DVR's, so we are safe for now. What is ironic is that if TiVo had not forced the advertising when playing back a recording, they most likely would be completely or near out of the inventory of the Edge because long-time TiVo users would have bought them in big enough numbers.


I guess the most relevant historical case to look to is the Moxi DVR. It was sold only with lifetime service; there was no monthly option for subscribing to guide listings as has always been the case with TiVo. It was, AFAIK, a purely retail product; no MVPD partners using it as is the case with TiVo. And even there, Moxi's owner, Digeo, provided service for a long while after the product ceased to be sold in Nov. 2011. Initially, they announced that service and support for Moxi DVRs would cease at the end of 2013, just over two years after the end of retail sales. But then, based on push back from the (very small) Moxi user base, they quickly changed their statement to "We currently have no plans to discontinue service."

Despite a corporate sale to Espial/Arris in the following years, Moxi service continued all the way until May 2019! That's 7.5 years after they discontinued the product! The company had to continue paying all that time to license guide data and run the servers to keep those Moxis operating.

If that's what happened with Moxi, there's every reason to believe something similar would play out with TiVo, who would still stand to make money on monthly service subscriptions to retail TiVos in use, and who owns the guide data themselves, and who must continue to keep their servers running to provide service to their MVPD partners anyhow. Now, as I said, it's certainly possible that TiVo aims to make some additional cash off those retail users by stuffing more ads in the TiVo UI somehow. Maybe those pre-roll ads become completely unavoidable and a big ad graphic pops up on screen every time you pause playback. But I don't think we'll see TiVo just summarily cut off all retail DVR service, at least to their more recent model boxes.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> I guess the most relevant historical case to look to is the Moxi DVR.


I would counter with two examples...

Rovi
Real Simple Software
Rovi sold lifetime guide service via manufacturers until they didn't. I was fortunate that my DTVPal included PSIP support, so I was able to use my Pals until they died -- end of life.

Real Simple Software pulled the plug on their guide service shortly after ending retail sales. Five single tuner DVRs went right in the trash, but two dual tuner models were traded in for HDHRs (the SiliconDust put RSS out of business by designing and manufacturing the two tuner model).

I do not believe Rovi/TiVo will pull the plug immediately, but the timer starts when they sell their last DVR.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

wizwor said:


> I would counter with two examples...
> 
> Rovi
> Real Simple Software
> ...


Neither of those operators had a DVR operation nearly as established or popular as TiVo. And I'd say that neither had a business model that approximated TiVo's retail efforts with lifetime service as well as Moxi's did.

But at any rate, yes, the clock would start ticking on future support for TiVo retail DVRs at the point when they ceased selling them. I just think that, for the reasons I've already expounded above, that clock would tick for a good long while.


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## wizwor (Dec 18, 2013)

Except Rovi has a track record that troubles me. Don't get me wrong. I do not think TiVo is done with retail or OTA or even close to that. I think the threat of class action lawsuit may temper Rivo's instincts. I just do not trust Rovi. I said that when they took over.

BTW, my Roamio/OTAs are 6 ($300), 6 ($300), 6 ($300), 4 ($200), and 3 ($200) years old. I expect TiVo and ATSC 1.0 to be alive and kicking in five years. Nothing has happened in the last two years to tamp down my expectations.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Neither of those operators had a DVR operation nearly as established or popular as TiVo. And I'd say that neither had a business model that approximated TiVo's retail efforts with lifetime service as well as Moxi's did.
> 
> But at any rate, yes, the clock would start ticking on future support for TiVo retail DVRs at the point when they ceased selling them. I just think that, for the reasons I've already expounded above, that clock would tick for a good long while.


Well, DNNA pulled the plug on ReplayTV. They eventually made every model a "lifetime" model once they stopped charging monthly for guide data, but one day, and I want to say it was in the summer of 2015, their guide-data agreement ended, and they did not renew. Their servers kept running, serving out guide data, but it was blank.

Eventually, it went dark. But thankfully, SchedulesDirect and WiRNS became a substitute for the DNNA Guide data. I think DNNA / RTV went at least 4 years after they last charged a customer for monthly subscriptions... Of course, the hardware sales ended long before that...


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

wizwor said:


> BTW, my Roamio/OTAs are 6 ($300), 6 ($300), 6 ($300), 4 ($200), and 3 ($200) years old. I expect TiVo and ATSC 1.0 to be alive and kicking in five years. Nothing has happened in the last two years to tamp down my expectations.


The situation where I caution folks about paying significant up-front money for TiVo hardware and lifetime service is when they plan to use it with cable TV. Given that the FCC's CableCARD mandate has ended, and cable operators all seem to be planning to phase out QAM-based TV and transition to IPTV or OTT TV at some unknown point in the future (rendering their services incompatible with TiVo DVRs), I would be very wary of spending much money on a CableCARD TiVo at this point.

But for TiVo OTA DVRs, no, I wouldn't be too concerned. As you say, ATSC 1.0 will be around for several more years to come (and, who knows, ATSC 3.0 may never be successful enough to kill off 1.0). Even if one bought a brand new TiVo Edge OTA with lifetime service for $349 (via ChannelMaster), I feel confident that it would receive guide data and be operational for *at least* another 3 years, rendering the effective monthly ownership cost to be $10 or less, which seems reasonable.


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## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

NashGuy said:


> The situation where I caution folks about paying significant up-front money for TiVo hardware and lifetime service is when they plan to use it with cable TV. Given that the FCC's CableCARD mandate has ended, and cable operators all seem to be planning to phase out QAM-based TV and transition to IPTV or OTT TV at some unknown point in the future (rendering their services incompatible with TiVo DVRs), *I would be very wary of spending much money on a CableCARD TiVo at this point.*


I would temper that advice with the caveat that it depends on the amount of the outlay versus the alternatives. Given that TiVo is still the best DVR solution by most standards, I would not hesitate to recommend the purchase if you would otherwise be renting the CATV provider's DVR and you can amortize your TiVo acquisition costs within two to three years.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

chiguy50 said:


> I would temper that advice with the caveat that it depends on the amount of the outlay versus the alternatives. Given that TiVo is still the best DVR solution by most standards, I would not hesitate to recommend the purchase if you would otherwise be renting the CATV provider's DVR and you can amortize your TiVo acquisition costs within two to three years.


I'd agree, except it's hard to know what the state of a CATV provider's QAM-based TV service will be within the next 2-3 years. Will some, or even all, of the cable channels you want from them still be accessible via a CableCARD device a year from now? Two years from now? Three years from now? That's the risk.

Although, yes, you have to balance that risk versus how much you'd spend over time by going with the provider's own DVR (or some other solution, such as YouTube TV) and how much more you value using a TiVo DVR over the competing alternatives. For die-hard long-time TiVo lovers, yeah, it may very well be worth the risk to buy a new TiVo Edge with all-in lifetime service for $949.98 plus tax. For anyone else, probably not. But hey, it's your money, not mine!


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

would there be a chance tivo makes a new ott box like AT&TV has and also have a cloud dvr? I really wanted to buy a tivo edge but my wouldn't let me she fears tivo will go out of business sooner than later. I prefer cable with tivo rather than streaming, but right now i'm considering switching to AT&T TV or to directv from frontier.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

celtic pride said:


> would there be a chance tivo makes a new ott box like AT&TV has and also have a cloud dvr? I really wanted to buy a tivo edge but my wouldn't let me she fears tivo will go out of business sooner than later. I prefer cable with tivo rather than streaming, but right now i'm considering switching to AT&T TV or to directv from frontier.


TiVo actually already has boxes that run the standard TiVo UI/system on top of Android TV or Linux, but those boxes are only for use with managed IPTV systems that have a deal in place to use TiVo. In those cases, the TV provider ensures that the back-end servers (cloud DVR, etc.) for their IPTV system are compatible with the TiVo boxes and they provide those boxes directly to their cable TV customers. Those boxes aren't available at retail, and they can't be used with any other provider's service. See here:

Next-Gen Platform Clients

As for a retail box from TiVo that's available to use with an OTT streaming cable TV service, TiVo kinda-sorta has that now, with their TiVo Stream 4K. The TiVo app on that device integrates with various on-demand services (e.g. Netflix, Prime Video, HBO Max, etc.) as well as Sling's live streaming cable channels and cloud DVR. Although I've read that the integration with Sling isn't as good as just going directly into the Sling app and controlling things from there. And, at least so far, Sling is the only streaming cable TV service it supports.

BTW, be aware that AT&T TV has a new second-generation custom Android TV device that's been designed, but no word yet on how long it may be until it gets released. (It will likely retain the current-design remote control, though.) If you're considering switching to AT&T TV, it may be worth waiting a bit if you're not in a big hurry to change providers.


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

Thanks for the information NashGuy! that was very inforrmative,I will wait and see what the new AT&T TV box has before ,i decide if i want to change providers, or get a new tivo edge.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

dstoffa said:


> Well, DNNA pulled the plug on ReplayTV. They eventually made every model a "lifetime" model once they stopped charging monthly for guide data, but one day, and I want to say it was in the summer of 2015, their guide-data agreement ended, and they did not renew. Their servers kept running, serving out guide data, but it was blank.
> 
> Eventually, it went dark. But thankfully, SchedulesDirect and WiRNS became a substitute for the DNNA Guide data. I think DNNA / RTV went at least 4 years after they last charged a customer for monthly subscriptions... Of course, the hardware sales ended long before that...


Whomever owned Replay at that time said it was shutting down guide service but they got so many legal threats that they kept providing guide service (and converted monthly units to lifetime for free)...IIRC, it was over 2 years later that they finally ran out of money & shutdown completely via liquidation bankruptcy.

The owner also opened up enough of the software that 3rd parties could serve guide data to the units...cheapest was for the end user to setup a Windows server & buy guide data from Schedules Direct.


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## electrowiz64 (Aug 6, 2014)

Their death is coming & I can see it. Cable company Optimum (bought by Altice) is converting to FTTH & doing away with RFoG for IPTV on their Fiber, which they gonna migrate ALL customers to eventually. I'm even seeing Comcast migrate some of their channels to IPTV on their X1 (looks like they wanna go full IPTV to reclaim spectrum, as they should).

The only other larger player out there is Spectrum who my inlaws have. They were soo focused on their mega merging the systems that they lagged behind BIG time on their attrocously slow boxes. CTO said they'll focus on that when they finish that system merging. If they go IPTV, forget about it, very little reason for TiVo to keep doing CableCARDs.

Maybe they could just stick to Over the AIR but I'll tell you what, their app ecosystem is garbage that there's no point. No Disney+, peacock, Hulu... If they just ran Android TV on the damn thing, i would've kept my tivo, but its annoying to have 2+ boxes on a TV, Im tryna consolidate & keep things simple here.

I mean I'm always gonna love TiVo & my inlaws also have RCN at their 2nd address so I've tested & really like their TiVo boxes as well. but that is a completely different box to what TiVo retail sells. They did good with Hydra. Yes Hydra is buggy but the interface looks much better, Hail Hydra.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

celtic pride said:


> Thanks for the information NashGuy! that was very inforrmative,I will wait and see what the new AT&T TV box has before ,i decide if i want to change providers, or get a new tivo edge.


You can see a picture and basic specs on the new AT&T TV box (the A21KW-500) here:
Android TV Guide - AT&T TV

Main things are that it will be faster (maybe 20% or so faster than the current model), will run Android TV 10 (or maybe even 11) vs. 8 on the current model, supports decoding of the new AV1 codec, has WiFi 6 (vs. 5), and should be able to support the current Hulu app (which the current box cannot do). Should be one of the best streaming devices on the market. It's the Humax H7 platform, just running AT&T's customized version of Android TV.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

electrowiz64 said:


> Their death is coming & I can see it. Cable company Optimum (bought by Altice) is converting to FTTH & doing away with RFoG for IPTV on their Fiber, which they gonna migrate ALL customers to eventually. I'm even seeing Comcast migrate some of their channels to IPTV on their X1 (looks like they wanna go full IPTV to reclaim spectrum, as they should).


Comcast will, but they're taking forever. Only niche and new HD channels have been moved to IP. Tivos have plenty of years left there (until they stop supporting cards, and there's no hint of that).


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> TiVo actually already has boxes that run the standard TiVo UI/system on top of Android TV or Linux, but those boxes are only for use with managed IPTV systems that have a deal in place to use TiVo.


This would seem to imply that IPTV support could be easily enabled for all existing TiVo DVRs, since they have been Linux based from the beginning.


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## electrowiz64 (Aug 6, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> Comcast will, but they're taking forever. Only niche and new HD channels have been moved to IP. Tivos have plenty of years left there (until they stop supporting cards, and there's no hint of that).


Oh yes there is. When I had Comcast in 2019 for a brief point, they made it extremely hard to get the cablecard activated on my tivo. I ended up giving up & getting their X1 (which is surprisingly nice). then fios came 4 months later. But still, alot of old people tryna set it up will end up just getting frustrated.

One thing I just thought of is maybe offering a cablecard server that pairs nicely with the tivo stream & other platforms. Kinda like HDHomeRun's cablecard tuner. I like the tivo platform but the lack of apps really sucks.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

snerd said:


> This would seem to imply that IPTV support could be easily enabled for all existing TiVo DVRs, since they have been Linux based from the beginning.


I don't know the particulars of how the software/OS on TiVo's Linux-based IPTV boxes differs from what's on a traditional TiVo DVR but I'm sure there's a difference. I mean, in theory, perhaps a TiVo Bolt could be flashed with the newer IPTV-compatible software and made to work with TiVo's back-end IPTV cloud server software that would be used by an operator licensing TiVo's overall platform. But why?

The bottom line is that traditional TiVo DVRs use an industry-wide standard -- CableCARD -- that ensures that they can be used with any QAM-based cable TV operator. But in the world of managed IPTV, there's no such standard. Each IPTV operator licenses (or creates from scratch) a particular back-end tech platform and then deploys STBs that work with it (and/or just relies on compatible apps for retail streaming devices like Fire TV, Apple TV, etc.)


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## snerd (Jun 6, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> I don't know the particulars of how the software/OS on TiVo's Linux-based IPTV boxes differs from what's on a traditional TiVo DVR but I'm sure there's a difference. I mean, in theory, perhaps a TiVo Bolt could be flashed with the newer IPTV-compatible software and made to work with TiVo's back-end IPTV cloud server software that would be used by an operator licensing TiVo's overall platform. But why?


As Comcast shifts more of their programming to IPTV, the channels are disappearing from cablecard access. I'd rather not lose any channels, since Xfinity is the only option that supports TiVo in my neighborhood. If they'd enable IPTV access in parallel to cablecard, it could potentially allow a smooth transition without loss of functionality.

That's a lot of "ifs", but the barriers appear to be more political rather than technical.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

snerd said:


> As Comcast shifts more of their programming to IPTV, the channels are disappearing from cablecard access. I'd rather not lose any channels, since Xfinity is the only option that supports TiVo in my neighborhood. If they'd enable IPTV access in parallel to cablecard, it could potentially allow a smooth transition without loss of functionality.
> 
> That's a lot of "ifs", but the barriers appear to be more political rather than technical.


It would require a high degree of cooperation between Comcast and TiVo to update the software on TiVo DVRs and/or Comcast's back-end IPTV servers (for live channels, cloud DVR and on-demand) to make the two sides work together properly. I'm sure it *could* be done. It's just that Comcast really has no good reason to invest the time and money into doing it. If, let's say, a quarter of Comcast's cable TV customers were using TiVos, then OK, they'd probably feel forced into working with TiVo to come up with a solution. But in reality, it's more like 1% of Comcast customers who use TiVos. (I'm basing this, BTW, on the FCC's last publicly reported number of active retail CableCARDs in use among the major cableco's.)

Honestly, at this point, with so few CableCARDs still in use and the FCC mandate now lifted, I think TiVo users are lucky that their DVRs are still as useful as they are with Comcast, Charter, Verizon FiOS, Cox, etc. I suspect that the very s-l-o-w transition from QAM to IPTV at Comcast has little or nothing to do with a fear of running off their TiVo-using customers and rather more to do with their own long-term plans for customer equipment and network upgrades, which of course cost money.


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## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

I received a survey from TiVo last night specifically asking questions about my experience with the Edge. So even if it is the last model, they are apparently still actively working on improvements to it. The questions were about what issues/frustrations I have with my Edge, my satisfaction with it, and what new features/functionality I would like to see.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

pfiagra said:


> I received a survey from TiVo last night specifically asking questions about my experience with the Edge. So even if it is the last model, they are apparently still actively working on improvements to it. The questions were about what issues/frustrations I have with my Edge, my satisfaction with it, and what new features/functionality I would like to see.


I received a survey also. All I have are Roamio boxes.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

NashGuy said:


> I guess the most relevant historical case to look to is the Moxi DVR. It was sold only with lifetime service; there was no monthly option for subscribing to guide listings as has always been the case with TiVo. It was, AFAIK, a purely retail product; no MVPD partners using it as is the case with TiVo. And even there, Moxi's owner, Digeo, provided service for a long while after the product ceased to be sold in Nov. 2011. Initially, they announced that service and support for Moxi DVRs would cease at the end of 2013, just over two years after the end of retail sales. But then, based on push back from the (very small) Moxi user base, they quickly changed their statement to "We currently have no plans to discontinue service."
> 
> Despite a corporate sale to Espial/Arris in the following years, Moxi service continued all the way until May 2019! That's 7.5 years after they discontinued the product! The company had to continue paying all that time to license guide data and run the servers to keep those Moxis operating.
> 
> If that's what happened with Moxi, there's every reason to believe something similar would play out with TiVo, who would still stand to make money on monthly service subscriptions to retail TiVos in use, and who owns the guide data themselves, and who must continue to keep their servers running to provide service to their MVPD partners anyhow. Now, as I said, it's certainly possible that TiVo aims to make some additional cash off those retail users by stuffing more ads in the TiVo UI somehow. Maybe those pre-roll ads become completely unavoidable and a big ad graphic pops up on screen every time you pause playback. But I don't think we'll see TiVo just summarily cut off all retail DVR service, at least to their more recent model boxes.


Yeah, and the irony is that Moxi was well-liked and even got an award for its design, which a few folks did not like. IIRC, Verizon FiOS in the early days offered a Moxi as an alternative DVR. I was rather taken by the desing and thought, while nothing is perfect, sure as heck beat anything offered by the cable cos. Just about everyone who had one spoke well of it, along with a few of its flaws, but ALL DVR's have flaws.

Another example is the Sezmi DVR. That was an OTA DVR product, but with the stupid ability to access premium channels via the OTA subchannels, currently used by Diginets, with conditional access and only in a few select cities. That part, obvioulsy desinged as an "up-sell" and where they were looking to make the real money, was so half-baked from the beginning.

However, while the DVR itself would behave maybe like the S3 648's when they were first released (I would guess from reports that they suffered from inferior parts causing some unreliability, so that could have been fixed, but first impressions are everything), the design of the DVR interface was pretty decent, but I thought its best feature was the built-in PROFILES feature. Each member of the household would have their own, seperate access to recordings, timers, etc. with IIRC a PIN access if desired. Sezmi used colors to distinguish each persons access and experience. Considering the now whole home DVR's with lots of tuners and clients for multiple people in a household to use, a profiles feature was never provided with any other DVR that I can think of, and certainly not TiVo (which has the WEAKEST multi-user experience), DirecTV's Genie, nor even the mega-monster 16 sat tuner+2 OTA tuner 7 TV supported Dish Hopper 3. It seems NUTS to offer a DVR like the Dish H3 without a profiles feature (although the Dish DVRs have offered Custom Folders in which to set-up and deposit recordings when timers fire and do offer multi RESUME points displayed per user, but still no REAL profiles like feature), but I imagine that such a profiles feature for LEGACY DVR makers was likely too difficult or preferred lots of other features and considered a profiles feature as just not making the cut when one considers all the things the above mentionded DVR's could do.

Anyway, Sezmi just announced out of the blue that they would be bricking (I mean, cease services and operations of) their DVR's with barely a few days notice. Too bad, becaue it did seem a well designed UI with decent features and the killer PROFILES. At least now, the streamers offer profiles with is greatly appreciated since they make recommedations based on viewing, and I don't have others messing up MY LIST and my in progess watching.

We shall have to see how long the local DVR option will last, but if more people were aware of both their right, and the legal means, to record (calle "archiving")of what streams into their home to save for later viewing (as when the streaming services lose rights to continue offering shows or movies) when WE are ready to view, local DVR could make a great comeback. What goes out, may just come back in.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

wizwor said:


> Except Rovi has a track record that troubles me. Don't get me wrong. I do not think TiVo is done with retail or OTA or even close to that. I think the threat of class action lawsuit may temper Rivo's instincts. I just do not trust Rovi. I said that when they took over.
> 
> BTW, my Roamio/OTAs are 6 ($300), 6 ($300), 6 ($300), 4 ($200), and 3 ($200) years old. I expect TiVo and ATSC 1.0 to be alive and kicking in five years. Nothing has happened in the last two years to tamp down my expectations.


Yeah, Rovi's track record of coming into the select local stations and removing the equipment for the OTA Rovi EPG service with very little notice. It seemed their attitude STANK (and the infamous Sony DVR's that lost the guide data seemingly overnight with Sony only able to give very short notice IIRC, and EPG makes a DVR a DVR anyone can use). Rovi owned the EPG and data, so the only cost I can think of was the communication lines to the installed equipment, but that experience is why there is a part of me that expects the Rovi purchased by Xime (or whatever the patent company is named) may do the same unceremonious, "So, long, and thanks for all the fish," here today, gone a few hours later with virtually no notice. However, I don't expect such a thing to happen with our retails TiVo's for well over a year or two because as long as they are selling the Edge, they can't cease service too soon or they could get in trouble with FTC, IMHO. However, they could decide to end S3-S4 or even up to S5 & S6 long before they end services of the Edge.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Series3Sub said:


> Yeah, Rovi's track record of coming into the select local stations and removing the equipment for the OTA Rovi EPG service with very little notice. It seemed their attitude STANK (and the infamous Sony DVR's that lost the guide data seemingly overnight with Sony only able to give very short notice IIRC, and EPG makes a DVR a DVR anyone can use). Rovi owned the EPG and data, so the only cost I can think of was the communication lines to the installed equipment, but that experience is why there is a part of me that expects the Rovi purchased by Xime (or whatever the patent company is named) may do the same unceremonious, "So, long, and thanks for all the fish," here today, gone a few hours later with virtually no notice.


When you refer to the Sony DVRs that used Rovi guide data, are you talking about the Sony DHG-HDD DVRs? I had one of those. All in all, it was a pretty cool device for a few years. But I can tell you that the "TV Guide OnScreen" guide data transmission system used for those boxes was a lot more complicated, and less reliable, than what TiVo DVRs use. TiVos get their guide data via an internet connection. No big deal -- it goes from their server through your ISP's network and right to your box.

The Sony DVRs, OTOH, relied on local _analog_ stations throughout the country -- in most markets, PBS stations, but in other markets, affiliates of CBS or another major network -- to embed guide data for all of the OTA channels in their local market. And sometimes there were issues with the local station not getting the data encoded properly. Rather than using an OTA antenna, I connected my Sony DVR to clear (unencrypted) QAM basic cable TV from Comcast to get my local HD and SD channels (plus InHD and InHD2!), so I didn't need a CableCARD. But at times, IIRC, something in Comcast's system was stripping out the guide data from the local PBS station's signal, so I couldn't record anything. Unfortunately, Sony didn't even have the good sense to allow users to manually set the DVR's clock, which would then allow them to set manual recordings if there was no guide data -- instead, the DVR completely relied on the embedded guide data to determine the local time and date! All in all, it was a somewhat convoluted and not-super-reliable system for guide data distribution. But then, back in early 2005 when these DVRs were released, I guess a lot of homes (especially those relying on OTA TV) didn't have internet service.

Anyway, aside from the fact that those Sony DVRs never sold anywhere *close* to as many units as TiVo DVRs, I don't think you can draw any conclusions about the way they stopped being supported by Rovi to determine how things will play out in the future with end-of-life support for TiVo DVRs. IIRC, things really fell apart for the TV Guide OnScreen system used by those Sony DVRs when local stations across the country began shutting down their analog broadcasts from 2009 onward. There wasn't really anything Rovi could do about that.


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## elahome.com (Jan 30, 2017)

I will first admit I have not read this whole thread.
I was an early adopter and had the first Sony TiVo DVR.

That being said... here in Chicago-land area... we still have cable-cards... hoping that holds for a bit.
Here's the rub for us.

Currently, for us to have all 4K Cable DVR boxes is expensive.
Also only way to do this correctly is to use the WiFi 4K boxes once the 4K main box is installed.
I have attempted to hard-line the network jack to the regular network, but could only get it to work if plugged into the Cocmast Modem/Router, but ended up switching back to 1080p co-ax boxes as they work, the small form factor boxes fail, including the main 4K box.

The Tivo Edge and Lux units do a nice job.. there's hardship's there as well with 100% connectivity, but we still like this system.
Will be looking out for more info on the cable cards.

The issue is we watch TV way different than 5 years ago. But I see TiVo as for high end clients.
Hoping Comcast and others find a solution to keep this ability for us/TiVo


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## Elgato54 (Sep 21, 2010)

I know, Old thread.
I am still running an old Roamio with cable card. Had no interest in the Bolt and the Edge with the 2.5" drive is a disappointment. These little drives just seem unable to take the beating. Not a good idea to pay a fortune for a lifetime subscription on unreliable Tivo hardware.
For whatever reason the guide is inaccurate for many channels and Tivo seems unable to fix it.
Face it. It is cable itself that is obsolete and they are unwilling to adjust their archaic pricing and business model. Super expensive TV programming with more advertising than content. You pay for 80% of channels you do not need to get a couple you want and they have no interest in letting you "only pay for what you need". $9.50 a month sports surcharge???
Like so many others we are on the verge of cutting the cord.
Tivo Stream did not live up to their hype and there are several better choices.
They could produce a reliable Tivo box with a 3.5" drive that does something special combining OTA, Cable and streaming into one box but it may not be profitable. No Disney??


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## FACTAgent (Aug 28, 2013)

Perhaps TiVo has been putting its resources into working with MSOs.
My cable company is offering a TiVo Stream Android TV box that can be combined with a digital cable package and cloud DVR that uses the Tivo interface:
Blue Ridge Stream Support – Blue Ridge (brctv.com)
Cloud DVR Support – Blue Ridge (brctv.com)

I am still using retail TiVos with cable cards as like the better performance and control with a local DVR.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

FACTAgent said:


> Perhaps TiVo has been putting its resources into working with MSOs.
> My cable company is offering a TiVo Stream Android TV box that can be combined with a digital cable package and cloud DVR that uses the Tivo interface:
> Blue Ridge Stream Support – Blue Ridge (brctv.com)
> Cloud DVR Support – Blue Ridge (brctv.com)
> ...


Yup, this is where TiVo has mainly been making their money now for years -- in providing hardware and services to pay TV operators, not to retail customers. And they just recently bought a competing company that also provided outsourced solutions for pay TV operators -- MobiTV -- after they went bankrupt. So Tivo is doubling down on that business.


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## Elgato54 (Sep 21, 2010)

mrsean said:


> I wonder if Tivo/Arris would do a refresh of the Edge and add a 3.5" internal drive. This would be a good way to increase sales by getting people to move away from Roamio.


The brilliant idea to move to a 2.5" hard drive was a total failure. Trade reliability and flexibility for a cute, smaller box? Sad that marketing is doing the design work,


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## Elgato54 (Sep 21, 2010)

I love our Tivo Roamio. Easy to use interface and reliable. Everyone I know with a bolt or Edge has had hard drive failures with the 2.5" drive.
Tivo is now hammering out $500 discount offers on the Edge. Either there is a new product in the works or they just need to empty a few warehouses?
They promised a lot with Stream marketing but did not deliver.I understand that streaming is the future but there are so many good products out there. Why focus everything on a crowded market that you have already failed at once? We still have not found a combination of streaming alternatives that can replace the DVR at a similar cost. I really wish Tivo would produce another good DVR with a decent interface, 3" hard drive and integrated streaming. How hard is that to figure out????


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Elgato54 said:


> The brilliant idea to move to a 2.5" hard drive was a total failure. Trade reliability and flexibility for a cute, smaller box? Sad that marketing is doing the design work,


It has everything to do with the computer industry migrating to laptops. No one wants towers anymore and the larger drives in it.


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Elgato54 said:


> I love our Tivo Roamio. Easy to use interface and reliable. Everyone I know with a bolt or Edge has had hard drive failures with the 2.5" drive.
> Tivo is now hammering out $500 discount offers on the Edge. Either there is a new product in the works or they just need to empty a few warehouses?
> They promised a lot with Stream marketing but did not deliver.I understand that streaming is the future but there are so many good products out there. Why focus everything on a crowded market that you have already failed at once? We still have not found a combination of streaming alternatives that can replace the DVR at a similar cost. I really wish Tivo would produce another good DVR with a decent interface, 3" hard drive and integrated streaming. How hard is that to figure out????


Niche market that's shrinking and probably not that profitable


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

tenthplanet said:


> It has everything to do with the computer industry migrating to laptops. No one wants towers anymore and the larger drives in it.


And it came out around the time laptops started migrating from hard drives to SSDs, so TiVo would also be cashing in on the lowered demand and excess supply of hard drives making spinning rust drives cheap.

These days even desktop machines are increasingly SSD only - between NVMe slots on the motherboard to cases having special SSD slots to hold SATA SSDs.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

LOL. How long do you have to beat a dead horse before you realize it’s dead? I cut the cord in November 2019, now use YouTube TV, and have never looked back. My faithful lifetime Roamio base model continues to run, recording OTA as a backup, but weeks go by when I don’t even switch my TV input to it. When it dies, I will be done with TiVo. 

BTW, the blame for me cutting the cord has nothing to do with TiVo. It was Spectrum cable TV’s sleazy business practices, absurd price increases and non-existant support for my Tuning Adapter.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

dlfl said:


> LOL. How long do you have to beat a dead horse before you realize it’s dead? I cut the cord in November 2019, now use YouTube TV, and have never looked back. My faithful lifetime Roamio base model continues to run, recording OTA as a backup, but weeks go by when I don’t even switch my TV input to it. When it dies, I will be done with TiVo.
> 
> BTW, the blame for me cutting the cord has nothing to do with TiVo. It was Spectrum cable TV’s sleazy business practices, absurd price increases and non-existant support for my Tuning Adapter.


Did the exact same thing less than a month, only it's greedy Cox that push me to YouTube TV. TiVo should have taken over Playstation Vue when Sony announced they were exiting VOD. Add the TiVo interface, rebranded it, and advertise the hell out of it. TiVo might gone somewhere with it.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Johncv said:


> Did the exact same thing less than a month, only it's greedy Cox that push me to YouTube TV. TiVo should have taken over Playstation Vue when Sony announced they were exiting VOD. Add the TiVo interface, rebranded it, and advertise the hell out of it. TiVo might gone somewhere with it.


Yeah, that might've worked, assuming TiVo had a parent company or backers who were willing to lose money on the service for awhile until they scaled it up to a point where it could be profitable. But the fact that TiVo leadership and ownership has been in such turmoil and turnover for the past few years makes me think that such a venture just wasn't feasible.

Pretty sure Sony only ever lost money on PS Vue. And FuboTV continues to lose money too. The prices on all the "cord-cutter" streaming cable services were unsustainably low to begin with. But I'd say YouTube TV and Hulu Live, each with around 4 million subs, are now profitable at their current $65-70 price points.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

Elgato54 said:


> I know, Old thread.
> I am still running an old Roamio with cable card. Had no interest in the Bolt and the Edge with the 2.5" drive is a disappointment. These little drives just seem unable to take the beating. Not a good idea to pay a fortune for a lifetime subscription on unreliable Tivo hardware.


Best thing I did with my bolt is hack a hole in the back and plugged a long SATA cable to the internal SATA connection on one end, an 8TB WD RED (before the hidden SMR fiasco!) and power the 8TB drive with an external power supply. Has been rock solid for over 4 years now. I finally got around to hacking the back out of a dead Tivo Romio (gutted it for the case) and stuck the bolt in there - still kept the 3.5" drive on a separate power supply but at least everything is in one box now. Not that you could see the bare 3.5" drive sitting behind the bolt in my AV cabinet anyway; was more just a fun project since the dead Romio was just hanging out in my junk pile.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

Elgato54 said:


> I love our Tivo Roamio. Easy to use interface and reliable. Everyone I know with a bolt or Edge has had hard drive failures with the 2.5" drive.
> Tivo is now hammering out $500 discount offers on the Edge. Either there is a new product in the works or they just need to empty a few warehouses?
> They promised a lot with Stream marketing but did not deliver.


If I could get the OTA recording of the Edge and the unified guide for streaming services (the big one being YouTube TV) in one box I'd be over the moon.


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## apexadam (Jun 4, 2008)

Series3Sub said:


> Yeah, but TiVo has moved on to the TiVo Stream, their version of a streaming device like a Roku type device, but with NO ability to view content from your TiVo DVR. IMHO, I sincerely doubt TiVo will ever produce another true DVR product, especially with the death of the Cable Card requirement, there just does not seem to be a market for future TiVo DVR's outside of cable TV. The TiVo management seems to be going all-in, hail-Mary for the lousy TiVo Stream.
> 
> What's a bit bitter to me is that TiVo was developing Maverick (did I spell it right?), which seemed to a hybrid of traditional DVR with Cloud DVR, and that device may have been more successful than continuing with just the local DVR tech, but the new owners of TiVo killed that project, and instead brought us the ad shoving down your throat Edge. Truly, the Series 5 Roamios were the last really good DVR's TiVo ever produced.
> 
> So, my opinion is yes, I really do think that Edge is the last DVR of ANY kind TiVo will ever produce. It is sad to see such a good product to down the drain. I'm certain others will comment.


Agreed. I own all the Cloud-based streaming options and TiVO. I wish the TiVO hardware (including 4TB or more recording) could grab the streams. My favorite device is still Tivo because of AD Skip and the Menu driven and interaction interface is much better than all the services before and after.


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## wind7sailor (7 mo ago)

Johncv said:


> Did the exact same thing less than a month, only it's greedy Cox that push me to YouTube TV. TiVo should have taken over Playstation Vue when Sony announced they were exiting VOD. Add the TiVo interface, rebranded it, and advertise the hell out of it. TiVo might gone somewhere with it.


I'm fighting the same problem. We started with Verison Fios (fiber optic) which was great. They sold off their Cable service to Frontier and the problems started, but we stayed with them. Then Frontier broke off a regional area and sold it off to a smaller inner element of Frontier called Ziply Fiber. 
Ziply Fiber has been even worse, including one week that we had no cable or it was totally pixelated. Now, JUST LIKE COX, they're mailing us to consider streaming. I see no adds for future cable TV or products and their website only list internet services and I wonder when they'll just pull the plug on cable.
Luckily, I'm about 11 miles from Broadcast towers and can easily get all my broadcast channels. About 85% of what my wife records comes from those broadcast channels and she likes to watch recorded shows and skip through commercials. She has quite a backlog of recorded shows.

What I was looking for from Tivo was an OTA DVR with 4 tuners and at least a 1 tb drive and an option for an external hard drive or a 2 tb drive. I heard on a Youtube video that Tivo had a product which matched this criteria; but when I come to this website, all I find is a 2 tuner model with a small hard drive which doesn't work for us. Did this 4 tuner model ever exist? Thanks, Joe


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## southerndoc (Apr 5, 2003)

TiVo seems to be trying to get rid of all their DVRs given the amount of emails I'm receiving lately. Makes me scared they're exiting the DVR industry.


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## wind7sailor (7 mo ago)

southerndoc said:


> TiVo seems to be trying to get rid of all their DVRs given the amount of emails I'm receiving lately. Makes me scared they're exiting the DVR industry.


The more I've read in this forum, I've gotten the same impression. It's sad too, as Tivo was an option I was looking into.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

southerndoc said:


> TiVo seems to be trying to get rid of all their DVRs given the amount of emails I'm receiving lately. Makes me scared they're exiting the DVR industry.


The consumer DVR business is (essentially) over, as the future for many is streaming dongles/pucks and cloud based DVR solutions(*). Selling off inventory is a time honored tradition to receive some revenue now, and reduce costs of carrying that inventory into the future.

TiVo still has a strong operator business, and will, as those operators request, spec new hardware that the usual manufacturers will build. It is possible that some of those devices (as the Edge did) make it into the retail channel, but that also depends on the operators wanting something that feels like a classic TiVo (and not the operators own branded streaming puck).

I expect that TiVo (or any successor spin-out company) will continue to support their existing devices (with guide service) for quite some time, but I also do not expect any significant improvements and enhancements in the product offering.

And for those with CableCARD TiVos, the writing has been on the wall for some time that the end is coming, and we are starting to see the writing come true.

I will continue to tell my TiVo clients that they can continue to enjoy their TiVo for now, but they should prepare for the end. Some are still in the denial stage of grief.


(*) That some want their TiVo experience is certainly true, but that market is shrinking.


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## janitor53 (Jun 9, 2016)

They should have focused on an antenna DVR model that was updated with the most recent streaming options. They would have dominated.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

CommunityMember said:


> TiVo still has a strong operator business, and will, as those operators request, spec new hardware that the usual manufacturers will build. It is possible that some of those devices (as the Edge did) make it into the retail channel, but that also depends on the operators wanting something that feels like a classic TiVo (and not the operators own branded streaming puck).


I think we're already to the point where traditional cable TV operators are looking ahead to either transitioning from QAM TV to IPTV or to just neglect and then shut down their pay TV service completely, allowing their broadband customers to self-serve via third-party apps like YouTube TV. In other words, I can't see any cable operator wanting to purchase any more QAM TV-compatible hard drive DVRs from TiVo or anyone else. That market is dead.

If we see any future model TiVo DVRs come to the retail market, they'll likely just be OTA DVRs. But I'm a bit skeptical that we'll even see that. TiVo/Xperi is now all about providing B2B solutions to pay TV operators and OEM device makers. I don't even know if they'll continue to make their own Android TV-based TiVo Stream 4K device. They've stated that the future they want for that platform is to evolve it into a smart TV platform that TV manufacturers will build into their TVs. Just today it was announced that Xperi has purchased the (rather crap-tastic) smart TV app platform Vewd, with the apparent intention of building the forthcoming TiVo smart TV platform atop it.



https://www.tvtechnology.com/news/xperi-expands-ctv-offerings-with-vewd-acquisition











Vewd: What Is It and How Does It Work?


Smart TVs and streaming devices use a variety of platforms to provide access to apps. If your TV or set-top box includes Vewd. Find out what you need to know.




www.lifewire.com







CommunityMember said:


> I expect that TiVo (or any successor spin-out company) will continue to support their existing devices (with guide service) for quite some time, but I also do not expect any significant improvements and enhancements in the product offering.
> 
> And for those with CableCARD TiVos, the writing has been on the wall for some time that the end is coming, and we are starting to see the writing come true.
> 
> I will continue to tell my TiVo clients that they can continue to enjoy their TiVo for now, but they should prepare for the end. Some are still in the denial stage of grief.


Yes to all this.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

I think its time for me to consider some sort of tower to put an antenna up along with my new weather station to prepare for the end. When Xfinity pulls the plug on CableCards in my region I'll go OTA (my version of the Bolt does both). We have Lifeline basic, and I am really frustrated on its cost these days. So I may jump before they push.

On Edit: Well... Back of the envelope is at least $1K for the concrete pad (6.5' x 6.5' x 4' thick) and another $1K for the 30' tower (I have a 1 acre lot).


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## MrDell (Jul 8, 2012)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I think its time for me to consider some sort of tower to put an antenna up along with my new weather station to prepare for the end. When Xfinity pulls the plug on CableCards in my region I'll go OTA (my version of the Bolt does both). We have Lifeline basic, and I am really frustrated on its cost these days. So I may jump before they push.
> 
> On Edit: Well... Back of the envelope is at least $1K for the concrete pad (6.5' x 6.5' x 4' thick) and another $1K for the 30' tower (I have a 1 acre lot).


I just went over the air with my bolt about two months ago. I really thought it would be a big adjustment but it wasn’t really that bad. I signed up for Philo TV to receive a few of the cable channels that my family enjoys. It seems to be working out quite well ……I’m saving money that I put towards streaming services that we like. You know I often wonder, if TiVo really made an effort to promote a good over the air DVR, will people consider it as a good option.?


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I think its time for me to consider some sort of tower to put an antenna up along with my new weather station to prepare for the end. When Xfinity pulls the plug on CableCards in my region I'll go OTA (my version of the Bolt does both). We have Lifeline basic, and I am really frustrated on its cost these days. So I may jump before they push.
> 
> On Edit: Well... Back of the envelope is at least $1K for the concrete pad (6.5' x 6.5' x 4' thick) and another $1K for the 30' tower (I have a 1 acre lot).


Just FYI, you can watch all CBS shows next-day in Paramount+ for $5/mo (or $10/mo ad-free and it also includes a live stream of your local CBS station). You can watch all ABC and (for now) Fox shows next-day in Hulu for $7/mo or $13/mo ad-free. You can watch all NBC shows next-day in Peacock Premium for $5/mo or $10/mo ad-free. And if you're a Comcast standalone internet customer, you're eligible to get their Flex streaming box (which you don't even have to use) including Peacock Premium for free (or you can upgrade to the ad-free version for $5/mo). 

So you could get all three apps, ad-free, for a total of $28/mo and that would cover primetime network shows from the big 4 nets, as well as most/all live sports from CBS and NBC. ABC hardly has any live sports since Disney puts all that on ESPN. Main thing you'd be missing would be Fox live sports, including Sunday NFL. But maybe you could put up an antenna on top of your house that could pull in just your local Fox station good enough for live sports watching on that one channel? 

As for your local news, you might be surprised how much of it is available for free via various apps. Here in Nashville, our local CBS and NBC stations each stream their local newscasts live and on-demand for free in their own branded apps, while our local Fox station has theirs in the free NewsOn app that features lots of local stations from around the nation. (Our local ABC station doesn't currently stream their local newscasts for free in any app that I'm aware of.)

As for PBS, their free national app offers lots of recent on-demand content and in most places includes a live stream of your local PBS station. The CW also offers a free app with their recent shows available on-demand (although no live stream of the local CW station).

Anyhow, between Hulu, Paramount+ and Peacock Premium, you'd also be getting a TON of additional content for that $28/mo, including new original series, recent movies, classic TV shows, etc. That seems like a WAY better deal to me than spending around $45/mo for Comcast's locals-only package in HD including their crazy "broadcast TV fee" that's around $19/mo on average nationwide.


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

spiderpumpkin said:


> The Roamio Plus/Pro design is near perfect. They should go back to that box and just update the internals.


And give it all the features of the TiVo Edge, plus have it be integrated to also access Hulu + Live TV. Hulu Live TV Channels can be accessed from the TiVo guide after one has signed into their Hulu account from the Hulu app.

On the back of the new TiVo Roamio DVR, it should have the same ports as the TiVo Edge, and there should be a Remote Finder. In fact, if they go back to the TiVo Roamio, they should make the speed the same as the TiVo Edge, but a tad faster. It should also have the same TiVo Edge features, which are these:


2TB of storage: Record 6 shows at once and store up to 300 HD hours.
Find what you want instantly with the voice remote (The Voice Remote is the same one from the Edge) 
Explore recommendations made just for you.
Enjoy cinematic quality with Dolby Atmos and Dolby Vision.
SkipMode®: skip entire commercial breaks with one tap and get back 20% of your TV time.
QuickMode®: watch shows 30% faster with pitch perfect audio.
OnePass™: instantly gather every available episode of your shows and set to record future episodes.
OneSearch™: say or type what you want and instantly view results across your recordings, live TV and streaming apps.
4K UHD

The updated TiVo Roamio should have 2TB of storage, and 6 tuners, and should also have the same internals as the Edge, but faster, and there should be 3 versions:


Updated Tivo Roamio for Cable
Updated Tivo Roamio for Antenna
Updated Tivo Roamio for Cable and Antenna


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## captainstabbins (Dec 16, 2002)

Hulu support on Tivo is going away this month.


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

captainstabbins said:


> Hulu support on Tivo is going away this month.


On some old devices


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## ElT60 (May 27, 2020)

CarlosSanger86 said:


> On some old devices


 If count the Tivo 4K Stream as the 'new' devices . 

Second post in this thread states that Hulu is talking about the Tivo platform ( which the Stream isn't on obviously).

Goodbye Hulu

Which makes sense. Xperi bought up the company that had the old "Opera App" platform , but it isn't going anywhere quickly and the Tivo app foundation is really at a dead end. The web video backend that the old legacy apps are using is going away at Hulu. So it has been coasting on a dead end for several years now.

It isn't a processor / resource 'horsepower' issue. It is a dead API issue. For a platform with no growth there is little reason to modernize the software. The Balkanization between legacy Tivo UI and New experience is just a greases the skids to obsolesce just that more faster. ( splintering an already small niche into even smaller pieces. )

That "older devices" language is probably there so folks don't think the 4K Stream is also dying. ( on GoogleTV , a growing platform, so not on the chopping block. ). I know hard core folks don't consider that a 'Tivo' but when it boots up it tosses a Tivo logo in the center of the screen. 

I suspect this end date on Hulu isn't entirely decoupled from the huge push to deploy more Tivo platform units. Netflix is going to be looking to cut development budget and will have a sharp eye out for platforms that don't contribute to growth. Amazon same thing. If Tivo can make the platform look it is plateaued (not cratering badly) then more folks will just coast along with their legacy apps with close to zero work being done on them. ( drift in a "cash cow" mode until something breaks and then quit. ) 


Roku , GoogleTV/Android , FireOS , AppleTV OS , and Comcast/Charter "Joint Venture" OS , so lots of ports to do and Tivo Platform is too small.


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## captainstabbins (Dec 16, 2002)

CarlosSanger86 said:


> On some old devices


No. On all devices. Go to the HULU website. Tivo is not supported.


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

ElT60 said:


> If count the Tivo 4K Stream as the 'new' devices .
> 
> Second post in this thread states that Hulu is talking about the Tivo platform ( which the Stream isn't on obviously).
> 
> ...


I just wish Hulu could stay on TiVo, but update the app to the latest version and add Live TV support. Additionally, the live channels should also be seen through the TiVo guide. And On Demand stuff can also be seen through the TiVo menu


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

captainstabbins said:


> No. On all devices. Go to the HULU website. Tivo is not supported.


I just wish Hulu could stay on TiVo, but update the app to the latest version and add Live TV support. Additionally, there should be a Hulu (+ Live TV) integrated TiVo Edge.


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

spiderpumpkin said:


> The Roamio Plus/Pro design is near perfect. They should go back to that box and just update the internals.


@spiderpumpkin, yes. 
And give it all the same features of the TiVo Edge.

On the back of the new TiVo Roamio DVR, it should have the same ports as the TiVo Edge, and there should be a Remote Finder. In fact, if they go back to the TiVo Roamio, they should make the speed the same as the TiVo Edge, but a bit faster. It should also have the same TiVo Edge features, which are these:


2TB of storage: Record 6 shows at once and store up to 300 HD hours.
Find what you want instantly with the voice remote (The Voice Remote is the same one from the Edge) 
Explore recommendations made just for you.
Enjoy cinematic quality with Dolby Atmos and Dolby Vision.
SkipMode®: skip entire commercial breaks with one tap and get back 20% of your TV time.
QuickMode®: watch shows 30% faster with pitch perfect audio.
OnePass™: instantly gather every available episode of your shows and set to record future episodes.
OneSearch™: say or type what you want and instantly view results across your recordings, live TV and streaming apps.
4K UHD

There should be 3 versions of the updated TiVo Roamio Plus:


Updated Tivo Roamio for Cable
Updated Tivo Roamio for Antenna
Updated Tivo Roamio for Cable and Antenna


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## ElT60 (May 27, 2020)

CarlosSanger86 said:


> ....
> There should be 3 versions of the updated TiVo Roamio Plus:
> 
> 
> ...


 CableCard is a dead walking zombie, Why would Tivo sanely devote *two* products to it, let alone even one. It is akin telling AT&T and Verizon to lay down more plain copper Plain-Old-Telephone wire. It is a shrinking market without a viable customer base. If the Tivo box can't receive any video data it can doing anything with, then how is it going to present any utility value to the user? Can't get past that, then investing money into that is a "no go".

ATSC 3.0 has enough technical issues to work through (at the software + hardware synergy level) to make doing even one new board update a challenge to correctly and well.

Folks keep pointing at hardware but primarily Tivo has a software problem. They need to get back to having one TiVO UX. Whatever they are doing with this "TV OS " thing needs to be at minimal a shared foundation with that. If not just one of the build in apps for that 'TV OS". 

Tivo is not the company they used to be in skill sets. Somewhat questionable whether they could focus and even get one box out the door. Let alone three different logic boards. Tivo has slid pretty far down the slippery slope of outsourcing the physical box details. 

Tivo also doesn't operate as a DVR in the same context as long ago either. The is much more DRM. The sources are varied. It isn't a 100 channels from a specific cable vendor 'pipe' dealing with. Even OTA has DRM on the horizon. Rolling out a old chassis from a previous era with a "speed bump" for the processor isn't going to work. What it has to do is substantively different now. 

The context changing makes keeping the exterior box the same relatively immaterial. That is incrementally cheaper but will get swamped by the other 'new context' costs even if changed the box slightly.


They are about to be reshuffled into yet another parent company. ( how many over last 4-5 years? ). There is no way there is money to support doing three products. When the split happens some cash is going to disappear into the other company. There isn't going to be a vast treasure chest of money to do products heading off in multiple directions.


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

ElT60 said:


> CableCard is a dead walking zombie, Why would Tivo sanely devote *two* products to it, let alone even one. It is akin telling AT&T and Verizon to lay down more plain copper Plain-Old-Telephone wire. It is a shrinking market without a viable customer base. If the Tivo box can't receive any video data it can doing anything with, then how is it going to present any utility value to the user? Can't get past that, then investing money into that is a "no go".
> 
> ATSC 3.0 has enough technical issues to work through (at the software + hardware synergy level) to make doing even one new board update a challenge to correctly and well.
> 
> ...


Fine. How about just for Cable, or Antenna


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## DrTek (4 mo ago)

So. Our CableCo has discontinued cable cards and IPTV. They now use an actual TiVo eStream 4k, that has everything in the Cloud. 
I have a Roamio Pro that is now useless. I also have an upgraded Bolt Cable/OTA. I can watch programs recorded on the Bolt on the Roamio.I had an antenna installed.
I have ordered an ATSC 3.0 TabloTV unit. I was hoping that TiVo would release an ATSC 3.0 OTA unit. I cannot believe that the OTA Edge only has 2 tuners.


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## mschnebly (Feb 21, 2011)

They should have made a "premiere" streaming box that buffered enough to rarely spin the magic circle. Imbed as many Tivo tricks into it as possible. Apple TV 4k is pretty expensive but you do get a better device than say Google or Roku. Tivo could have followed that path. I think they were just bought out by a company that only wanted patents and software and the hardware is being left to die a slow death as the tech moves on.


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## mntvjunkie (May 13, 2009)

Comcast recently announced that symmetrical 2gbps+ service is coming to most of their footprint by 2025. I am fairly certain this will end QAM-based video on Comcast when it arrives (or at least SEVERELY limits it). Basically, to do this, they will be redesigning their plants to devote 500mhz to upload. They’ve already stated IPTV is the future for them, and demand for data speed improvements (especially upload) will outweigh their desire to keep even 100k TiVo users happy (assuming they still even have that many).


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

mntvjunkie said:


> Comcast recently announced that symmetrical 2gbps+ service is coming to most of their footprint by 2025. I am fairly certain this will end QAM-based video on Comcast when it arrives (or at least SEVERELY limits it). Basically, to do this, they will be redesigning their plants to devote 500mhz to upload. They’ve already stated IPTV is the future for them, and demand for data speed improvements (especially upload) will outweigh their desire to keep even 100k TiVo users happy (assuming they still even have that many).


Imagine if TiVo made an IPTV box that can still work on cable/IPTV providers, while also still supporting traditional cable


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

mntvjunkie said:


> Comcast recently announced that symmetrical 2gbps+ service is coming to most of their footprint by 2025. I am fairly certain this will end QAM-based video on Comcast when it arrives (or at least SEVERELY limits it). Basically, to do this, they will be redesigning their plants to devote 500mhz to upload. They’ve already stated IPTV is the future for them, and demand for data speed improvements (especially upload) will outweigh their desire to keep even 100k TiVo users happy (assuming they still even have that many).


I would agree that the network architectural upgrades that Comcast will implement to allow for symmetrical 2 Gbps+ service (i.e. full duplex/DOCSIS 4.0) could very well mean the end of QAM video in those areas. They stated that that upgrade will happen in "select markets" by the end of 2023.

But the wave of upgrades happening in a few places now and then spreading through the rest of Comcast's footprint by the end of 2025 is not symmetrical multi-gig. It's either a mid-split or high-split upgrade which significantly increases upload speeds, allowing a maximum tier of 2 Gbps down and 200 Mbps up. AFAIK, this upgrade (which is already underway in Philly, Colorado Springs, Augusta, and Panama City Beach) does not mean the end of QAM TV in those places, and probably doesn't even affect CableCARD.



https://www.engadget.com/comcast-gigabit-2x-announced-203440991.html



So which areas will see the upgrade to DOCSIS 4.0 with symmetrical gigabit speeds (and possibly the end of QAM video) first? Likely it'll be those urban/suburban areas where Comcast faces stiff competition from fiber operators like AT&T, Verizon and Google. Those are the places where Comcast needs to sell a product that has very fast symmetrical speeds (and unlimited data usage) to keep from losing more and more customers to fiber.

But out in the exurban/small town/rural areas where Comcast is the only wired broadband provider available, it could be a _very_ long time before Comcast upgrades their network to DOCSIS 4.0. Because, let's be honest, not many people would actually make use of anything faster than the 2 Gbps/200 Mbps tier that Comcast is just starting to roll out and plans to have across their footprint by the end of 2025. And without any real competition breathing down their neck in those areas, what's the rush to spend the money on further network upgrades?

So if you use your TiVo with Comcast cable TV and you live out in the boonies, heck, you might be good through the end of this decade (assuming your TiVo box and your CableCARD last that long).


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

CarlosSanger86 said:


> Imagine if TiVo made an IPTV box that can still work on cable/IPTV providers, while also still supporting traditional cable


Except they don't care about the market, they have no development staff, for those of us who have been here since the original Tivo team owned it, it's pretty clear there is not a path to the future with DVRs to consumers.

I would also like a pony, it has the same chance of happening as Tivo releasing an improved new DVR.


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

dianebrat said:


> Except they don't care about the market, they have no development staff, for those of us who have been here since the original Tivo team owned it, it's pretty clear there is not a path to the future with DVRs to consumers.
> 
> I would also like a pony, it has the same chance of happening as Tivo releasing an improved new DVR.


Sell TiVo to someone else


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

CarlosSanger86 said:


> Sell TiVo to someone else


They did, that's how it wound up the way it is


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## CarlosSanger86 (6 mo ago)

dianebrat said:


> They did, that's how it wound up the way it is


I mean sell the entire Xperi company


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

CarlosSanger86 said:


> I mean sell the entire Xperi company


Xperi is the issue, this is their preference, they wanted Tivo for the patents and IP so that they could license it, that hasn't changed.


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## CommunityMember (May 22, 2020)

CarlosSanger86 said:


> Imagine if TiVo made an IPTV box that can still work on cable/IPTV providers, while also still supporting traditional cable


They do, for operators that chose to do so. However, every IPTV platform is specific to the operator, and requires the operators cooperation (with contracts) to develop/enable for that operator. TiVo talked about obtaining a license for IPTV from a few of the majors, but appear to have ultimately chosen that making license fees by charging the operators for certain IP was going to be more lucrative (at least during the period of their various corporate reorganizations/sales) then having to give up (at least some of) those fees in exchange to license the operators IPTV and then sell devices direct to consumers. It was, ultimately, about money (it is always about money), and TiVo made their choices. It is hard to say whether TiVo management made the best business decision (they were already moving away from the consumer market at that point), but it is clear that that meant that those that loved TiVo (and those that might love it) will not have a viable alternative that preserves the customers TiVo experience.


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## malba2366 (Aug 19, 2014)

CarlosSanger86 said:


> Imagine if TiVo made an IPTV box that can still work on cable/IPTV providers, while also still supporting traditional cable


Will never happen without cablecard, or some similar device owned and controlled by the cable company. No way they will allow their encryption keys to be housed on a device they don't own/control.


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