# Why can't THD stream instead of COPY for MRV?



## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

I am starting this NEW Thread since I have mostly lost my MRV feature due to Verizon FIOS adding a Copy Flag of HEX 02. This means that we can usually no longer use MRV as we can only "copy" once.

I did not want to take the other thread Off Topic, but I had seen many people state that the TIVO HD did not have the CPU power to stream. If the Tivo could stream, instead of COPY, then MRV would work as the Copy Flag does not prevent streaming.

So, my simple question to all who keep saying that the TIVO HD does not have the power to Stream is...........


If my THD can buffer (or even record 2 HD shows), and I can COPY a show at the same time and watch it in another room (before the CCI byte was changed and even now on unprotected shows) AND the show I am watching via MRV immediately does not pause and I can even skip comm'ls AND the copy finishes well before the end of the show...why is that not good enough for streaming? I do have a wired network, but I keep seeing that TIVO can not impliment streaming as there is not enough CPU power.

Just say'in...


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

I think all of S3/HD/Premiere are now fast enough to stream real-time HD recordings (the HD just so, S3 better, and Premiere far ahead.)

I don't think there is a processing or network limitation--the problem is that Tivo hasn't implemented this in their software. We've been asking for this functionality--TWC has been crippling MRV for years.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

DaveDFW said:


> I don't think there is a processing or network limitation--the problem is that Tivo hasn't implemented this in their software. We've been asking for this functionality--TWC has been crippling MRV for years.


Yeah, but until a few weeks ago your request came under the category of "other people's problems". It just became *my* problem, so it's now obviously much more important to have a solution! 

There's no f***ing way that TiVo's glad-handing "media executive" CEO will spend money to add MRV to TiVo HD or to S3. IMO. Maybe the Premiere people will be luckier. There's a very slight chance the Premiere could get MRV sometime after all the show-stopper bugs are fixed. Once again, IMO.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

Well, the only thing that "may" help is that when I told TIVO what is going on, they said they need to call Verizon and see what can be worked out...if anything. Of course they are concerned if their MRV feature will not work on more and more systems. Customers will be mad and TIVO sales will go down!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

MPSAN said:


> ... and TIVO sales will go down!


So that would mean that TiVo will lose money more slowly.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

bicker said:


> So that would mean that TiVo will lose money more slowly.


So, are you saying that you hope that our only choice will be the providers equipment?


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

MPSAN said:


> So, are you saying that you hope that our only choice will be the providers equipment?


Or a Moxi.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

killzone said:


> Or a Moxi.


When I bought my 3 THD's almost a year ago, I was looking into Moxi. I did not go that route as it seemed they were not sure what they were going to offer and when. I called them and they still could not tell me things like what the Moxi Mate was, what it will be able to do, and when it will be available and for how much I passed. Can they stream Netflix?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

MPSAN said:


> I am starting this NEW Thread since I have mostly lost my MRV feature due to Verizon FIOS adding a Copy Flag of HEX 02. This means that we can usually no longer use MRV as we can only "copy" once.


This is not the same as TWC, and in fact this is not universal. FiOS is still the most open of the cable/broadband providers in regards to copy flags and pairing of CableCARDS.

Are you being deliberate in your fear-mongering just to get a rise out of people? I can't find a single channel on my FiOS lineup that does not allow me to fully transfer shows at this time, MRV is just fine here, or are you referring to the long rumored "clamp down" that hasn't happened?

Diane


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

The clamp down has begun.
This is only happening in the areas where FIOS is changing to Frontier.

We tolerated all the threads complaining about Comcast and TW having copy protection, who's to say FIOS people can't have their threads, too?


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

Don't forget Cox. It's all locked down too.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

djwilso said:


> Don't forget Cox. It's all locked down too.


 Not here for Cox Orange County, CA. Only Premiums have CCI set, everything else is clear. There are several other Cox markets where that's the case as well. There are many areas for Comcast that only Premiums are locked out as well. I think TWC is really the only one that currently overwhelmingly sets CCI flag in most locations.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> This is not the same as TWC, and in fact this is not universal. FiOS is still the most open of the cable/broadband providers in regards to copy flags and pairing of CableCARDS.
> 
> Are you being deliberate in your fear-mongering just to get a rise out of people? I can't find a single channel on my FiOS lineup that does not allow me to fully transfer shows at this time, MRV is just fine here, or are you referring to the long rumored "clamp down" that hasn't happened?


The "clamp down" is NOT a rumor. I'm experiencing it firsthand now after the damned outage on 6/7 along w/those in OR. Be thankful you're not in one of those areas. It appears limited to ones being transitioned over to Frontier.

I first hit the outage at http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7976518#post7976518 and it took >1.5 hours on the phone over 3 separate calls, spanning 2 days to resolve it.

See http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=450307. Feel free to search for my posts in that thread. I've attached a kmttg screenshot, if you'd like to see. Why do you think I started the thread at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7982774?

Prior to 6/7, I'd NEVER seen a single show on any channel on my Extreme HD package (I have no premiums) ever be protected. Only things that ever had protection weren't recorded from FiOS (e.g. downloaded content such as podcasts and Amazon Unbox).

Calls to VZ have so far resulted in reaching people who don't understand CCI byte values, their net effect and resulted in mixed, sometimes conflicting messages (e.g. they're aware of it and working on it or it's here to stay or, it's not our problem, it's TiVo's problem, etc.)


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

I am not so sure that the Tivo HD has the horsepower to stream HD MPEG 2. When I try this using streambaby I get a lot of rebuffering. No problems with HD H .264. I don't think it is a network issue because MPEG 2 works reasonably well to the Xbox 360 via Media Center. I'm not making excuses for Tivo-- just don't get too excited because it might be technically impossible on the HD platform.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

MPSAN said:


> > So that would mean that TiVo will lose money more slowly.
> 
> 
> So, are you saying that you hope that our only choice will be the providers equipment?


Where the frak did you corrupt that interpretation from? Do you *read* the messages you reply to?

Nothing in my message expressed anything about what I "hope". Stop blindly emoting and start reading what you reply to *before* you reply.


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## fatlard (Jun 30, 2003)

MPSAN said:


> When I bought my 3 THD's almost a year ago, I was looking into Moxi. I did not go that route as it seemed they were not sure what they were going to offer and when. I called them and they still could not tell me things like what the Moxi Mate was, what it will be able to do, and when it will be available and for how much I passed. Can they stream Netflix?


Three years is quite a long time in the world DVRs in terms of new advances (maybe not for Tivo, though )

If you call them, I am sure they can tell you what a Moxi Mate is.

As for your question, they can stream Netflix using Playon. They cannot stream it natively.

As for other innovation

-easy internal via a button push and external drive I have 4TB on my Moxi.
-online scheduling
-DLNA
-3 Tuners


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bicker said:


> So that would mean that TiVo will lose money more slowly.


And yet... TiVo seems to want to sell hardware. (Now where the frak did I corrupt that interpretation from? ). Thus MPSAN's logic that it's in TiVo's interest for MRV to work is valid.

Actually, didn't the most recent quarterly report show that TiVo made money on hardware, at least on the margin?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

steve614 said:


> The clamp down has begun.
> This is only happening in the areas where FIOS is changing to Frontier.
> 
> We tolerated all the threads complaining about Comcast and TW having copy protection, who's to say FIOS people can't have their threads, too?


ahh..

So then this would be more of a Frontier issue then a Verizon issue? that's going to be a bit to keep straight, 2 different FiOS providers after years of just one, it's an interesting turn. Even the linked thread does not say conclusively that this is planned by Frontier vs just ineptitude.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> ahh..
> 
> So then this would be more of a Frontier issue then a Verizon issue? that's going to be a bit to keep straight, 2 different FiOS providers after years of just one, it's an interesting turn. Even the linked thread does not say conclusively that this is planned by Frontier vs just ineptitude.


So?? If I were affected by this problem I don't think it would comfort me much to think it was due to ineptitude. I have been afflicted by problems caused by TWC's ineptitude and it's terrible. You can't even get authoritative discussion from anyone there, just confusing inconsistent blather.

I think the basic problem with FIOS is it's no longer viewed as a vital growing program by VZ, since they have announced they are curtailing future rollouts. Thus it no longer has the appeal of the "wave of the future" within the company, which I speculate may be why they are selling off pieces to Frontier. FIOS is probably just a holding action for VZ now -- their best talent will be seeking opportunities elsewhere.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

It will be ironic if TIVO starts streaming content and is sued for copyright infringement by Moxi.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

dlfl said:


> So?? If I were affected by this problem I don't think it would comfort me much to think it was due to ineptitude. I have been afflicted by problems caused by TWC's ineptitude and it's terrible. You can't even get authoritative discussion from anyone there, just confusing inconsistent blather.


I agree that if I were affected I too would be upset, but what I'm saying is that ineptitude can be more easily fixed then a new more aggressive copy once policy, and the difference between the intent of the two is huge. TWC's copy once is corporate policy, not ineptitude, and thus IMSHO more vile.

Diane


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dlfl said:


> And yet... TiVo seems to want to sell hardware. [/BQUOTE]What we know is that TiVo wants to make money. And we know that they want to be a player in the DVR sector. Whether they simply must do so by selling hardware is not something you can hang your hat on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> *So then this would be more of a Frontier issue then a Verizon issue?*


And we have a winner!!!



dianebrat said:


> that's going to be a bit to keep straight, 2 different FiOS providers after years of just one


Does Frontier get to use the brand-name FiOS?

Regardless, we've got the tools to communicate effectively... they're right here: "Frontier" and "Verizon".



dianebrat said:


> Even the linked thread does not say conclusively that this is planned by Frontier vs just ineptitude.


The linked thread title should be changed to reflect the reality, that this is a Frontier-related problem.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dlfl said:


> So?? If I were affected by this problem I don't think it would comfort me much to think it was due to ineptitude.


What that may be true, understanding the reality of what is causing you concern is something that should always be a primary objective. There is no advantage in ignorance.



dlfl said:


> I think the basic problem with FIOS is it's no longer viewed as a vital growing program by VZ, since they have announced they are curtailing future rollouts. Thus it no longer has the appeal of the "wave of the future" within the company, which I speculate may be why they are selling off pieces to Frontier. FIOS is probably just a holding action for VZ now -- their best talent will be seeking opportunities elsewhere.


I think it goes beyond that. As I alluded to in earlier messages, I think Verizon has determined that customers are actually not going to be coming around to valuing broadband as highly as the costs of deploying broadband requires. Given that they aren't gaining premium customers fast enough, and the premium customers aren't willing to pay enough, for what they're offering, even now that the recession is over, the whole FiOS effort may come to seem to be a poor investment, in retrospect.


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## COBeav (Jan 9, 2002)

fatlard said:


> As for your question, they can stream Netflix using Playon. They cannot stream it natively.


This may have changed, but last time I looked into the PlayOn hack it didn't support Netflix HD. Has this changed? If it doesn't support HD then it's a non-starter.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

COBeav said:


> fatlard said:
> 
> 
> > As for your question, they can stream Netflix using Playon. They cannot stream it natively.
> ...


Another non-starter for Moxi is the inability to tune OTA channels.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bicker said:


> [While what] that may be true, understanding the reality of what is causing you concern is something that should always be a primary objective. There is no advantage in ignorance.


Of course. However in some cases understanding the unerlying reality has no advantage either, e.g., my experience with TWC -- their ineptitude just continues and understanding it doesn't lead to a fix. I fail to see any practical difference from the case where their actions were deliberate. Actually it's even more complicated: I think their ineptitude results indirectly from a deliberate decision that satisfying TiVo customers is relatively unimportant. So is it deliberate or inept? And who cares?



bicker said:


> I think it goes beyond that. As I alluded to in earlier messages, I think Verizon has determined that customers are actually not going to be coming around to valuing broadband as highly as the costs of deploying broadband requires. Given that they aren't gaining premium customers fast enough, and the premium customers aren't willing to pay enough, for what they're offering, even now that the recession is over, the whole FiOS effort may come to seem to be a poor investment, in retrospect.


Good points. However I may quibble with you that the recession is over. Get back to me when unemployment drops below 7%.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> ahh..
> 
> So then this would be more of a Frontier issue then a Verizon issue? that's going to be a bit to keep straight, 2 different FiOS providers after years of just one, it's an interesting turn. Even the linked thread does not say conclusively that this is planned by Frontier vs just ineptitude.





dianebrat said:


> I agree that if I were affected I too would be upset, but what I'm saying is that ineptitude can be more easily fixed then a new more aggressive copy once policy, and the difference between the intent of the two is huge. TWC's copy once is corporate policy, not ineptitude, and thus IMSHO more vile.


As of this point, we have no idea if it's ineptitude, intentional or what. But, so far it looks like ineptitude that might be here to stay given that the CSRs don't even know about the issue, don't understand it and from the mixed or conflicting messages we're getting. There's been no formal statement or notification.

Between the calls I've made to VZ due to the outage, complaining about the CP, trying to call TiVo to let them know too, etc. I've spent close to 2.5 hours on the phone now.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

bicker said:


> I think it goes beyond that. As I alluded to in earlier messages, I think Verizon has determined that customers are actually not going to be coming around to valuing broadband as highly as the costs of deploying broadband requires. Given that they aren't gaining premium customers fast enough, and the premium customers aren't willing to pay enough, for what they're offering, even now that the recession is over, the whole FiOS effort may come to seem to be a poor investment, in retrospect.


Speculation... Speculation on my part too but I think you're putting way too much emphasis on FiOS in general. VZ says that their focus is on wireless and I believe them. There's been a festering issue for years between Vodafone and Verizon over Verizon Wireless, Vodafone being a 45% stakeholder. Stress between CEOs as well. As I understand things, it has basically come to sh*t or get off the pot; pay us a dividend for the first time or buy out our interest. It doesn't sound like a merger could be amicable.

I don't see Verizon abandoning its FiOS network in the Frontier states so much as I see VZ cutting loose from broad areas that never had a prayer of seeing fiber optic - copper line customers who yield little in profit but are expensive to serve. The current play with Frontier looks like FairPoint Communications Act II. Use of the Reverse Morris Trust nets VZ a massive tax break through this convoluted maneuver while ownership (65% or so) of Frontier is passed on to VZ stockholders. I assume it will be worthless after bankruptcy settlement in not so many years. See Idearc and Fairpoint.

I think the big enchilada for Verizon is Verizon Wireless, not FiOS. They're fattening their cash position to finally settle things with Vodaphone. Nothing more than my own guesswork, I admit.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

cwerdna said:


> As of this point, we have no idea if it's ineptitude, intentional or what. But, so far it looks like ineptitude that might be here to stay .........


Or using a slight modification of the Titanic song lyrics:

"And my [heart ineptitude] will go on and on."


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

bicker (great name it seems) and Diane.

I will not banter any further as I have never had negative comments about a post I had made either here or any other forum. My only point was that I hope that TIVO takes notice or we only would have the equipment that was for rent available. Anyway, enough said...and I do read posts!

Diane.

I do know that this happened to the accounts that Frontier will take over on July 1st. However, when the support person called me back, he mentioned that all of FIOS would get this flag. Since I had no way of knowing how accurate he was, I never said anything about it.


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## rifleman69 (Jan 6, 2005)

bicker said:


> And we have a winner!!!
> 
> Does Frontier get to use the brand-name FiOS?
> 
> ...


Sorry, but until July 1st...this is a Verizon problem even if Frontier is telling Verizon to implement.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Of course. However in some cases understanding the unerlying reality has no advantage either, e.g., my experience with TWC -- their ineptitude just continues and understanding it doesn't lead to a fix.


It doesn't have to lead to a fix to afford you advantage. Understanding leads to clear-thinking, and that is its own reward.



dlfl said:


> Good points. However I may quibble with you that the recession is over. Get back to me when unemployment drops below 7%.


Please read-up on what a recession is, and how it is determined. You don't get to determine it by your own gut-feel. It's a word; it has a meaning.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

bicker said:


> That's very hard to believe. You're welcome to opt-out of participating in this forum. Your implication that you should have an unrebutted soap-box for you perspective, though, is laughable.
> 
> Then perhaps you should have said that. I would have had no problem with such a statement.
> 
> You misread the message you replied to. I wrote, "The linked thread title should be changed to reflect the reality, that this is a Frontier*-related* problem."


I will not opt-out here.  Is there any post that you do not have a comment about?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bicker said:


> Please read-up on what a recession is, and how it is determined. You don't get to determine it by your own gut-feel. It's a word; it has a meaning.


There could be further quibbling here, but let's not.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

bicker said:


> Please read-up on what a recession is, and how it is determined. You don't get to determine it by your own gut-feel. It's a word; it has a meaning.


Right. And the start and end of recessions in the US are determined by the The National Bureau of Economic Research, which has not yet spoken on the end of this one. My gut-feel says that they will probably call it for July or August of 2009, but, as you say, that doesn't count. -- Doug


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

MPSAN said:


> I will not opt-out here.  Is there any post that you do not have a comment about?





DougJohnson said:


> Right. And the start and end of recessions in the US are determined by the The National Bureau of Economic Research, which has not yet spoken on the end of this one. My gut-feel says that they will probably call it for July or August of 2009, but, as you say, that doesn't count. -- Doug


MPSAN I think DougJohnson's post is one bicker will like!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> Another non-starter for Moxi is the inability to tune OTA channels.


If you want to guarantee MRV with cable, Moxi seems to be the only alternative. You can stream neflix with a cheap bluray player.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> This is not the same as TWC, and in fact this is not universal. FiOS is still the most open of the cable/broadband providers in regards to copy flags and pairing of CableCARDS.
> 
> Are you being deliberate in your fear-mongering just to get a rise out of people? I can't find a single channel on my FiOS lineup that does not allow me to fully transfer shows at this time, MRV is just fine here, or are you referring to the long rumored "clamp down" that hasn't happened?
> 
> Diane


For your sake I hope not. Or we'll be seeing more posts of the "my problem" variety like this one.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

dlfl said:


> MPSAN I think DougJohnson's post is one bicker will like!


Well, I could start a post in the drive expansion section regarding Hard Drive specs and how the older 20 bit drive parameter was flawed. They tried to define how to address large drives but ended up defining an architecture instead. It never did let a user access 20 bits worth of data. When they expanded to 28 bits, the error continued. That will keep him busy yelling at me! Then I can argue that the change to LBA did not make drives bigger, it just let you access the room that you paid for!


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

Stormspace said:


> For your sake I hope not. Or we'll be seeing more posts of the "my problem" variety like this one.


The only thing I objected to was being accused of fear-mongering. I was stating FACT. In my case it was what happened to Verizon FIOS people going to Frontier.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> Are you being deliberate in your fear-mongering just to get a rise out of people? I can't find a single channel on my FiOS lineup that does not allow me to fully transfer shows at this time, MRV is just fine here, or are you referring to the long rumored "clamp down" that hasn't happened?





cwerdna said:


> The "clamp down" is NOT a rumor. I'm experiencing it firsthand now after the damned outage on 6/7 along w/those in OR. Be thankful you're not in one of those areas. It appears limited to ones being transitioned over to Frontier...


Diane, since you're in one of one of the apparently unaffected (not being transitioned to Frontier) areas if you could confirm that these channels have no copy protection (i.e. CCI byte == 0x00), it would probably help our case. From:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=450334
100 CNN, 102 CNBC, 105 CNNI, 120 DSCP, 191 G4, 569 HDNET

From http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7996832#post7996832:
104 BLOOM, 128 HISTP, 140 LIFEP, 141 LMN, 53 FXP, 71 ESPNCL

And now 101 HLN, 127 HI, 165 HGTVP, 190 COMEDYP, 250 DISNP. I don't think the show matters at all.

http://www.tivo.com/copyprotection/ lists a quick way to get the CCI byte value w/o setting a recording. All of these are showing protection either because I checked them via the UI manually or have a recording made >=6/8/10 that is showing as protected.

Thanks!


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

DougJohnson said:


> Right. And the start and end of recessions in the US are determined by the The National Bureau of Economic Research, which has not yet spoken on the end of this one. My gut-feel says that they will probably call it for July or August of 2009, but, as you say, that doesn't count. -- Doug


Yes, chances are the recession really ended in January of this year, rather than summer of last year. Either way, it's over.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

bicker said:


> Yes, chances are the recession really ended in January of this year, rather than summer of last year. Either way, it's over.


no it is not. The real recession has only been postponed. When Obama stops throwing taxpayer money at it along with money on loan from China in the form of car buying incentives, government census jobs and bailouts, the bottom will fall out of it even deeper would have before. You can not spend your way out of a recession when you have no money to begin with.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

vurbano said:


> no it is not. The real recession has only been postponed. When Obama stops throwing taxpayer money at it along with money on loan from China in the form of car buying incentives, government census jobs and bailouts, the bottom will fall out of it even deeper would have before. You can not spend your way out of a recession when you have no money to begin with.


Well said! :up::up: This is exactly what I'm thinking, but I held back posting it in respect of not interjecting politics on the forum. But since you mentioned it........

If the "official" definition of a recession says it's over, fine. All that means is that the term "recession" is not sufficient for describing our economic health.


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## Grumock (Dec 16, 2008)

dlfl said:


> If the "official" definition of a recession says it's over, fine. All that means is that the term "recession" is not sufficient for describing our economic health.


I am not buying it, at least not until jobs are being created again instead of the fluff numbers of census takers counting as jobs. When i was watching the news this morning i heard them say America is the worlds largest manufacturer. I would like to know of what? This was in regards to China raising the value of their currency BTW.


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## DougJohnson (Dec 12, 2006)

bicker said:


> Yes, chances are the recession really ended in January of this year, rather than summer of last year. Either way, it's over.


According to your gut-feel. But you said gut-feels don't count.
-- Doug


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bicker said:


> Yes, chances are the recession really ended in January of this year, rather than summer of last year. Either way, it's over.


Really good news for the 17% of people actually unemployed. 

The really bad news comes later when inflation kicks in, caused by our outrageous debt level that can only be serviced by printing more money. Especially for those on fixed incomes (e.g., me). This (called "monetizing the debt" in economic jargon) is in essence a form of wealth redistribution, something which is (covertly) quite popular with the current administration, and with the almost 50% of the people who don't pay income taxes now.

BTW, I didn't initiate the political comments in this thread. I'm ready to stop when others do.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

MPSAN said:


> I will not opt-out here.  Is there any post that you do not have a comment about?


i dont think so. LOL


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MPSAN said:


> The only thing I objected to was being accused of fear-mongering. I was stating FACT. In my case it was what happened to Verizon FIOS people going to Frontier.


I lived with CP on TWC for almost 6 months until they started CPing everything. I ditched my Cable Cards and TA and went back to analog to get MRV back. During my days of ranting Diane told me it was only me and not every cable provider was doing it. Looks like more are doing it than not at this point, so you are right to point it out, and it's not fear mongering or whatever she wishes to call it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Grumock said:


> I am not buying it, at least not until jobs are being created again instead of the fluff numbers of census takers counting as jobs. When i was watching the news this morning i heard them say America is the worlds largest manufacturer. I would like to know of what? This was in regards to China raising the value of their currency BTW.


recession has to do with Gross Domestic Product and whether that is receding or not. *If you all want to argue it- there is a happy hour forum here that would be happy to weigh in. * However one fact remains no matter what people try and perceive differently - the measure of employment rates has nothing to do with measuring a recession.

PS from http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm

Table A. States with unemployment rates significantly differ-
ent from that of the U.S., May 2010, seasonally adjusted 
--------------------------------------------------------------
State | Rate(p) 
--------------------------------------------------------------
United States (1) ................... * 9.7 *


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## Grumock (Dec 16, 2008)

ZeoTiVo said:


> recession has to do with Gross Domestic Product and whether that is receding or not. *If you all want to argue it- there is a happy hour forum here that would be happy to weigh in. * However one fact remains no matter what people try and perceive differently - the measure of employment rates has nothing to do with measuring a recession.
> 
> PS from http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm
> 
> ...


Feel better? What matters to most is the high unemployment rate. What matters to the corporate world is their bottom line. Not to argue the point just stating what "PEOPLE" care about. I did not start this political talk just voiced my opinion. Sorry if it does not fit the Corporate idea.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

Stormspace said:


> I lived with CP on TWC for almost 6 months until they started CPing everything. I ditched my Cable Cards and TA and went back to analog to get MRV back. During my days of ranting Diane told me it was only me and not every cable provider was doing it. Looks like more are doing it than not at this point, so you are right to point it out, and it's not fear mongering or whatever she wishes to call it.


Thank you. Also, I pointed out that this IS going on now...since June 6th in our area. We thought it was a bug, that they added too many CP flags and would retract them. We found out that most stations, with the exception of the Networks, PBS, and a few Cable stations were protected.

I can see that Politics and wordsmithing have made this thread so OT that I am sorry I started it.


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

Can we keep the this thread on topic instead of debating politics, recession, unemployment, etc.? Please do that in another thread that is appropriately titled.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> I lived with CP on TWC for almost 6 months until they started CPing everything. I ditched my Cable Cards and TA and went back to analog to get MRV back. During my days of ranting Diane told me it was only me and not every cable provider was doing it. Looks like more are doing it than not at this point, so you are right to point it out, and it's not fear mongering or whatever she wishes to call it.


It's fear mongering to say "VERIZON FIOS IS SETTING THE CC BYTE!!!" without the proper disclosure that it's Frontier customers only.

In your case I never disagreed that TWC wasn't overly aggressive in their setting of the flag, but that running around proclaiming MRV and Transfers are DEAD!!!!" when that is not the case, that was where I disagreed with you, being a Chicken Little is not becoming for anyone.

Diane


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

cwerdna said:


> Diane, since you're in one of one of the apparently unaffected (not being transitioned to Frontier) areas if you could confirm that these channels have no copy protection
> Thanks!


Happy to, I've printed out the list, will give it a check, and reply back in a few hours.

Diane


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

dianebrat said:


> It's fear mongering to say "VERIZON FIOS IS SETTING THE CC BYTE!!!" without the proper disclosure that it's Frontier customers only.
> 
> In your case I never disagreed that TWC wasn't overly aggressive in their setting of the flag, but that running around proclaiming MRV and Transfers are DEAD!!!!" when that is not the case that was where I disagreed with you. Being a Chicken Little is not becoming for anyone.
> 
> Diane


Diane, sorry if this is how you took it. As I explained, we in the VZ to Frontier area have this issue now. As I said before, I was also told that this would be in place for ALL of Verizon...that is what the Network guy told me. I hope that all of the calls to Verizon may make them rethink the extent of this change. We will never know...however I WAS told that it would be in place EVERYWHERE.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

dianebrat said:


> Happy to, I've printed out the list, will give it a check, and reply back in a few hours.
> 
> Diane


I may be wrong but I don't think you need to put in the time. All or most of you in OR and WA are seeing CopyProtectionKey: Enabled while the rest of us (FiOS) see CopyProtectionKey: Disabled. Is it necessary to go further?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

MPSAN said:


> Diane, sorry if this is how you took it. As I explained, we in the VZ to Frontier area have this issue now. As I said before, I was also told that this would be in place for ALL of Verizon...that is what the Network guy told me. I hope that all of the calls to Verizon may make them rethink the extent of this change. We will never know...however I WAS told that it would be in place EVERYWHERE.


MPSAN, I was quoting Stormspace on their previous Chicken Little rantings, I was called out on it, thus I'll reply to them.

Your "network guy" saying it was everywhere was most likely not well informed.
I have no doubt this is happening to the folks being moved to Frontier, however this is not happening to all the Verizon FiOS markets.

Diane


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

cwerdna said:


> Diane, since you're in one of one of the apparently unaffected (not being transitioned to Frontier) areas if you could confirm that these channels have no copy protection (i.e. CCI byte == 0x00), it would probably help our case.
> 100 CNN,
> 102 CNBC,
> 105 CNNI,
> ...


I'll have the expected in my non-transitioning market of New England CCI byte of 0x00
(that went WAY faster then I thought it would)
I just want to end the insane discussion of "FiOS is adding protection everywhere!!!!!" as opposed to "The upcoming Frontier move has issues"

The big question that needs to be answered at the root of ALL this ranting and raving and posturing would be "Is this intentional at Frontier's request?" or "Is Frontier just this inept?"

Diane


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

dianebrat said:


> MPSAN, I was quoting Stormspace on their previous Chicken Little rantings, I was called out on it, thus I'll reply to them.
> 
> Your "network guy" saying it was everywhere was most likely not well informed.
> I have no doubt this is happening to the folks being moved to Frontier, however this is not happening to all the Verizon FiOS markets.
> ...


No problem. As I said, the network guy did say it was the intent but had no time frame. I do have his direct # and may ask him tomorrow about this.

Anyway, I am from the Boston area as well...Hartford. Funny, I am in Portland OR, now and it was called Portland because a guy won the coin toss. The other name was going to be Boston!


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> I'll have the expected in my non-transitioning market of New England CCI byte of 0x00
> (that went WAY faster then I thought it would)
> I just want to end the insane discussion of "FiOS is adding protection everywhere!!!!!" as opposed to "The upcoming Frontier move has issues"
> 
> The big question that needs to be answered at the root of ALL this ranting and raving and posturing would be "Is this intentional at Frontier's request?" or "Is Frontier just this inept?"


Thanks for confirming that all the Frontier/VZ FiOS protected channels I listed are unprotected in your area.

Agreed on the big question. I wish we could get straight answers out of VZ support. I sent off a complaint via VZ's web page last night detailing the problem (including mentiong a link to www.tivo.com/copyprotection, CCI byte value 0x02, etc.) and not surprisingly, I got terse reply to call support. Duh. I've done that several times already.  They've done that to me before when I asked a simple non-technical question. Their online support form is worthless.

I need to find out who the equivalent is of maccor.org is to complain to for my area, since MACC seems to be Oregon only. Being slammed at work hasn't helped w/the time aspect.


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## killzone (Oct 19, 2000)

orangeboy said:


> Another non-starter for Moxi is the inability to tune OTA channels.


If you care that much about OTA, then clearly the MRV issue is not an issue for you since the flag isn't set for OTA.

If, however, your a soon to be Frontier customer and you like MRV, then your choices are stick with Tivo and not have MRV, rent the provider boxes or get a moxi and have MRV but no OTA. Personally, I think the folks at Tivo should have had more foresight and avoided all these CC issues by streaming instead of copying. Besides being a better solution, it would have saved them and everyone else countless agravation.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

killzone said:


> If you care that much about OTA, then clearly the MRV issue is not an issue for you since the flag isn't set for OTA.
> 
> If, however, your a soon to be Frontier customer and you like MRV, then your choices are stick with Tivo and not have MRV, rent the provider boxes or get a moxi and have MRV but no OTA. Personally, I think the folks at Tivo should have had more foresight and avoided all these CC issues by streaming instead of copying. Besides being a better solution, it would have saved them and everyone else countless agravation.


Until the Series 4 streaming would not have been effective, Hardwired Series 3 (original) could have done the job but few TiVoHDs would have worked for streaming, normal (using the TiVo adapter) wireless to wireless TiVoHD would never have worked in the average setting.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

lessd said:


> Until the Series 4 streaming would not have been effective, Hardwired Series 3 (original) could have done the job but few TiVoHDs would have worked for streaming, normal (using the TiVo adapter) wireless to wireless TiVoHD would never have worked in the average setting.


That was the reason I started this topic. See my first post where I ask why the THD would NOT work well.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

MPSAN said:


> That was the reason I started this topic. See my first post where I ask why the THD would NOT work well.


It's not using fast enough electronics, if you asking why TiVo did not use faster chips, most likely cost and availability.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

But they are all fast enough to stream HD on a wired network. Just because one possible configuration (wireless) is too slow should not be a reason to not offer a streaming feature.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I still think TiVo is waiting for the FCC to decide on the matter before the FCC to change cable labs certification over to one of "hardware only" and get it out of the business of deciding on saoftware certifications for things like MRV.
If that happens then TiVo can design a solution without worrying about having to take 6 or 12 more months to get cable labs to turn it down 

Some way to watch shows on multiple in home TiVo DVRs without worrying about the CCI byte would be a key differentiator for TiVo, they definitely need it.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ...Some way to watch shows on multiple in home TiVo DVRs without worrying about the CCI byte would be a key differentiator for TiVo, they definitely need it.


Unfortunately that addresses only a portion of the problem. I've become spoiled watching commercial-free programming using kmttg+pyTivo. Although I don't have digital cable television service, and therefore not limited by the CCI byte, I'm sure there are a lot of folks that enjoy the TiVoToGo, and as a result, the TiVoToComeBack features that the CCI byte also effects. One bridge at a time I guess...


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

lessd said:


> It's not using fast enough electronics, if you asking why TiVo did not use faster chips, most likely cost and availability.


I don't buy that.
My current TivoHD to TivoHD MRVs occur at faster than real time (wired network, of course). Granted, it's not fast enough to skip commercials, but fast enough for real time viewing unless something else is involved in streaming that would make it slower than the current copy method.
Plus, I would think there would be _some_ buffering allowed to compensate for slower networks.


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## DaveDFW (Jan 25, 2005)

Maybe Tivo will have an extra incentive to implement streaming if a large group of Verizon-to-Frontier users will be locked out of MRV/TTG and start complaining also.

Our complaints have been ignored so far, but I'm hopeful.


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## MPSAN (Jun 20, 2009)

DaveDFW said:


> But they are all fast enough to stream HD on a wired network. Just because one possible configuration (wireless) is too slow should not be a reason to not offer a streaming feature.


I guess that is what I said when I started this thread. I am wired and can have 2 tuners buffering HD shows and copy a recorded show to another TIVO and watch it without a pause and I can skip a comm'l and it is still done with the copy before I reach the end of the show (HD,too).

The above is a great example of a run-on sentence!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> Unfortunately that addresses only a portion of the problem. I've become spoiled watching commercial-free programming using kmttg+pyTivo. Although I don't have digital cable television service, and therefore not limited by the CCI byte, I'm sure there are a lot of folks that enjoy the TiVoToGo, and as a result, the TiVoToComeBack features that the CCI byte also effects. One bridge at a time I guess...


Yep - the only way to have TTG and comeback working for those files would be to ignore the flag. That is a bigger issue but with some cable outlets abusing the flag like they do then if TiVo's cable card certification is not on the line then........


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MPSAN said:


> I guess that is what I said when I started this thread. I am wired and can have 2 tuners buffering HD shows and copy a recorded show to another TIVO and watch it without a pause and I can skip a comm'l and it is still done with the copy before I reach the end of the show (HD,too).
> 
> The above is a great example of a run-on sentence!


correct - and the simple solution would be to make a copy and then delete the show from the first TiVo. Thus not really a copy. Unfortunately there is more in the mix then just technology. TiVo needs cable card certification from cablelabs. cable labs can currently include how they deal with the CCI flag as part of that certification. In fact MRV even for non-flaged shows was disabled on the S3 boxes when they first came out and TiVo had to deal with and wait on cable labs to certify the MRV process that exists now for a good many m0onths after the S3 was introduced. Currently any changes would require certification by cable labs for that change. Writing the FCC to have them rescind that certification hold on software by cable labs would be a good action to do if you want change


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

steve614 said:


> I don't buy that.
> My current TivoHD to TivoHD MRVs occur at faster than real time (wired network, of course). Granted, it's not fast enough to skip commercials, but fast enough for real time viewing unless something else is involved in streaming that would make it slower than the current copy method.
> Plus, I would think there would be _some_ buffering allowed to compensate for slower networks.


The key word you used is* HARD WIRED*, how would TiVo have sold this feature and not have it work using a TiVo wireless adapter ? Mass confusion, and how many people can hard wire all their TiVos ? I know many on this forum can do great things, but TiVos go to ordinary non technical people that want the product to work as stated.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

lessd said:


> The key word you used is* HARD WIRED*, how would TiVo have sold this feature and not have it work using a TiVo wireless adapter ? Mass confusion, and how many people can hard wire all their TiVos ? I know many on this forum can do great things, but TiVos go to ordinary non technical people that want the product to work as stated.


If people are smart enough to know how to setup and connect to a wireless network, they are MORE than smart enough to setup and use MoCA adapters. I would imagine COAX is run to most places a TV would be placed...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

orangeboy said:


> If people are smart enough to know how to setup and connect to a wireless network, they are MORE than smart enough to setup and use MoCA adapters. I would imagine COAX is run to most places a TV would be placed...


 I would imagine most people don't know what a MoCA even is, not people on this forum of course. I will admit I don't know much about MoCA and i set up wireless networks all the time, for friends etc.


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