# TiVo to stage a UK comeback?



## Bagpuss (Feb 11, 2002)

Just wanted to share a little gossip that came my way today.

A friend of mine is the CTO for a large, well known IT company. Just recently he attended
a business lunch for similar bods, and just happened to be sharing a table with the UK MD
for TiVo.

When the MD was asked about a return to the UK market, my friend was told that this
could happen as early as May of this year. He was told that TiVo have a hardware partner,
and will be targetting the freeview market segment. The only current sticking point is
how to price the service, as many people using freeview will be resistant to any kind of
device which requires a monthly subscription. 

Has anyone else heard this? If it's true, then it would be fantastic!

Bagpuss.


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## Automan (Oct 29, 2000)

I may be in error but Tivo have no UK operations and thus are unlikely to have a UK MD.

Also most people with Freeview I suspect will not want to pay a monthly charge just for a program guide.

Now if they were to market a "HD Tivo" to work with cable & Sky they may have a chance.

Automan.


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## me075064 (Sep 18, 2005)

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?? PLEASE...I love my TIVO.
I just hope that any new box would work with cable\sky even if targeted at freeview.


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## Bagpuss (Feb 11, 2002)

That's what I thought, but my friend seemed certain about it when he was telling me.

Still, I'm still hopeful that the Series 2 stuff will eventually make it to the UK.

Bagpuss.


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## Nebulous (Nov 28, 2005)

Please let it be true :up:       :up:


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## groovyclam (Feb 18, 2002)

TiVo won't have a hope in hell of convincing FreeView watchers to part with extra cash every month "just to record tv" when there is now an established choice ( albeit small ) of FreeView hard drive recorders out there that don't need a sub ( yes I know they won't have "season pass" and "wishlist" but until you have experienced those features you won't think you need to pay monthly for them ).

The flipside is that it probably won't cost TiVo much at all ( if anything ) to launch a product back into the UK as really it is the hardware makers that take all the risk. They already have their call centre and UK listing working for us current owners.

I think the only product TiVo *could* possibly partner that would steal a march and therefore have a chance would be a FreeSat recorder and it really should be capable of FreeSatHD too in order to have a good shelf-life.

If they brought out such a beast then it would give a *very attractive* alternative to any SkyHD PVR ( which we all know will cost a bomb in ongoing subs both for the PVR capability and the HD package too ).

The downside is there would only be HD Beeb channels initially but that will change in a year or two when C4 and ITV get more HD capable. TiVo could sit back from the start of HD in the UK and mop up all the people that want HD but don't want to pay a premium to Sky or a cable company for the priviledge.


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

groovyclam said:


> ( yes I know they won't have "season pass" and "wishlist" but until you have experienced those features you won't think you need to pay monthly for them ).
> 
> .


This comes back to a suggestion previously made by BlindLemon which, I believe, is common practice in the states.

Give the tivo service FOC for a period between 1 and 3 months then cut back to "basic" DVR functionality. Thus people will have used those features and, my guess would be, most people will be prepared to pay for the extra functionality.

However, most people will look at sky+ and think they *need* the ability to dual record, I don't know how likely that would be. Dual freeview tuners maybe, but it would need the capability to accept and record two inputs other than built in tuners to make a mark. IMO.

So, I think it's too soon. Wait until this new free satellite service is up and running, incorporate two freesat tuners. A release in conjunction with the stallite release would be ideal.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

In the US, the most popular Series 2 TiVo box is very similar to our UK TiVos in that it can work with multiple sources, incuding satellite, because it has its own inbuilt encoder. Other variants for cable companies have multiple inbuilt tuners and bitstream recording, and I suspect that the first new UK TiVo will follow this path by being a twin-freeview machine. However, once the word starts to spread I wouldn't be surprised to see it joined by a standalone machine that can work with Sky or Freeview.

TiVo Basic is at least as good as the service supplied by existing Freeview DVRs here, and after a 3 month free trial of the full service, I have no doubt that the vast majority of users will happily pay up for a sub - especially if TiVo follow Sky's pricing model and offer a cheap 'standard' service (eg. less than a fiver a month) with extra features like TiVoToGo available for small extra monthly increments. And as for Sly+, IMHO it has actually done TiVo a big favour in the UK by raising awareness of the concept of a PVR, despite the fact that it's not really a PVR itself

Also, most TiVos in the US are now sold bundled with 12 months 'free' service or a discount if you pay for the service up front, and users are tied-in to a 12 month contract in return for a very low initial purchase price.

Furthermore, if you extrapolate the results of my poll to an estimated 30,000 UK TiVo owners, the number of people who would be likely to buy a Series 2 UK TiVo comes out at around 80,000 - and that's before TiVo run a single advert :up:


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## clivegriffiths (Feb 24, 2002)

If its proves to be true I think it could possibly do quite well. I've thought for the past few years that short of a deal with one of the cable companies (which was always unlikely) that the only serious option was a TiVo unit with an intergrated Freeview box and possibly a DVD recorder. Freeview is continuing to grow at a very steady rate, so there is still huge potential. I'm not sure I agree than just because someone has freeview that they are opposed to paying a sub for TiVo. I agree that some people get Freeview because there is no subscription, but a lot of people IMHO are opting for Freeview simply because they simply feel that Freeview offers enough additional channels beyond the basic five to satisfy their needs. My understanding is that TiVo series 2 boxes will be a lot cheaper to produce, so if they could deliver a unit at say £99-£150 and continue the option of a lifetime sub, then I suspect TiVo (with some advertising) could get some decent numbers.


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

I agree, they need to advertise. But even if they do relauch, will they? There seems to be a long list of companies that lauch innovative products, and then just expect people to buy them, without telling anybody the benefits. Sky+'s advertising was great. I don't remember any TiVo adverts on T.V., even though I have downloaded them!


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

I saw one TiVo advert on TV, but to my enduring shame (or that of the advertising company?) it failed to make an impression. 

I didn't get a TiVo until nearly 2 years later 

However, Sky have now spent so many millions advertising Sly+ that if people ask me what a TiVo is nowadays I just say "It's like Sky+ but much better" - they know immediately what I'm talking about, and are keen to find out what the "better" part is... :up:


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## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

TiVo advertised a lot on TV, and in cinemas. They also ran a extensive campaign in magazines.


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## =CM= (Feb 22, 2005)

blindlemon said:


> I saw one TiVo advert on TV, but to my enduring shame (or that of the advertising company?) it failed to make an impression.


Would a guy spitting out his dinner make anyone buy a sophisticated product like Tivo? No: it was advertising luvvies wasting the budget and missing the target markets completely. I knew what Tivo was before those terrible ads appeared but I had the advantage of playing with a U.S. colleague's one (his demo involved showing 7of9 being scrubbed by Tripp in Enterprise: there's a frame or two of too much detail, shall we imply a _wardrobe moment_!) Now *that* would have made a good ad!



blindlemon said:


> However, Sky have now spent so many millions advertising Sly+ that if people ask me what a TiVo is nowadays I just say "It's like Sky+ but much better" ...


Sky do subsidise their pre-beta offering and recuperate the subsidy on an ongoing basis. They're good at that free bite followed by ever deeper dipping into the wallet until the punter reaches breaking point. I do hope Tivo come back - scope for "virgin cable" if it ever gets its act together to attack Sky in this area but holding one's breath for UK cable to get off its a*** can lead to very blue faces.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Automan said:


> Now if they were to market a "HD Tivo" to work with cable & Sky they may have a chance.
> 
> Automan.


Hmm - an HD Tivo for Sky would be a very difficult proposition. You'd either have to get a deal with Sky (so you could integrate Tivo functionality into a Sky receiver) or would have to implement HD analogue component or HDCP HDMI or DVI uncompressed HD input AND provide real-time MPEG2 or MPEG4 compression, which would cause a quality hit.

Sky are unlikely to work with Tivo when they have a rival PVR in the form of Sky+. Sky would have to work with Tivo as Tivo would need access to the Sky encryption system (Videoguard) - and ideally links to the Sky EPG (to cope with dynamic schedule changes)

The standalone HD box would be a major hardware task - as real-time MPEG2 HD encoding is still far from cheap (though HDV camcorders now do it) - and I suspect the HDCP encryption would be a real issue for recording HDMI feeds...

In practical terms, any UK Tivo would either need to be standalone (i.e. analogue SD RGB/Composite inputs) or Freeview based (with dual tuners) However as Freeview has a free 7 day EPG - a subscription model would be a difficult sell - however a higher purchase payment would also be difficult, as existing Freeview PVRs are reasonably low cost these days.

I suspect a cable-only device would be a difficult financial proposition as the cable market is still pretty small, unless the cablecos subsidised it.

I'd love a Freeview Tivo - especially if it had the Series 2 networking and TivoToGo stuff though - and paying for THIS might be a more sensible service model. (Didn't US DirecTivo users pay a reduced sub as their platform includes the EPG?)


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## cyril (Sep 5, 2001)

I'm hoping for a UK TiVo series 3 with 6 tuners - 2 SD Freeview DTT and 2 HD for free-to-air satellite and 2 HD for cable instead of the HD terrestial /HD Sat/HD cable US version.

Of course direct co-operation with Sky, NTL, Telewest and even perhaps Homechoice would be great, if somewhat unlikely.

At least a series 3 would be more future-proof than a series 2 I hope!
The series 3 is already HD capable, so the major work has already been done.


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## Anndra (Oct 12, 2004)

"his demo involved showing 7of9 being scrubbed by Tripp in Enterprise"

Wow! A TiVo that can take characters from two different series' and put them together! That, I'd buy.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

You know, I never even noticed that and I thought I knew my Trek  Of course, he didn't mean 7of9. It was, of course, Topol


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## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> I saw one TiVo advert on TV, but to my enduring shame (or that of the advertising company?) it failed to make an impression.
> 
> I didn't get a TiVo until nearly 2 years later





=CM= said:


> Would a guy spitting out his dinner make anyone buy a sophisticated product like Tivo? No: it was advertising luvvies wasting the budget and missing the target markets completely.


I, too, saw the original ads: they put me off so much I didn't buy my first Tivo till 3 years later; I now have two; enough said.

There were also a couple of features on TV shows (Tomorrow's World?  ) which featured Suggestions heavily; 
I thought, "*Why would I want a machine to pick my TV programmes?*".
Season Passes weren't mentioned.
Ironically, I'd said to a friend six months earlier that I wanted a machine that would download or record entire TV series; if only Tivo's Marketing Men could've conveyed the concept convincingly and correctly - coo!


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

cwaring said:


> You know, I never even noticed that and I thought I knew my Trek  Of course, he didn't mean 7of9. It was, of course, Topol


Oy Vey! I don't think you mean the Fiddler on the Roof. It might have been T'Pol though.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Indeed. Hence the smileys


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## PhilG (Jan 15, 2002)

What IS sad is that I have just spent a couple of weeks in the US, and there "Tivo" has changed from being a noun to a verb (people are talking about "Tivoing programs" and asking each other questions like "Did you Tivo ER last night?")

<<sigh>> What might have been, still WE all know better don't we

As an aside, I wonder what the breakdown for timeshifting is these days between VCR, Tivo, SkyPlus, freeview PVRs and recordable DVDs??


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Bagpuss said:


> Has anyone else heard this? If it's true, then it would be fantastic!


Hmmm. Don't know what to think. Gary hasn't denied it, and he hasn't said "soon" either.


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## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

Here is a flat denial - I know of no plans for any new TiVo hardware to be produced in the UK.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well that was conclusive


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

GarySargent said:


> Here is a flat denial - I know of no plans for any new TiVo hardware to be produced in the UK.


Well, as TiVo have never produced hardware in the UK anyway, I for one still expect, eventually, to see a new PVR with TiVo _software_...


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## Gavin (Jan 1, 2003)

sanderton said:


> TiVo advertised a lot on TV, and in cinemas. They also ran a extensive campaign in magazines.


Was it Tivo who did the Ad's or Thomson.

Either way I say them (the bloke spitting out his tea) and thought oh, so what. It wasn't until 2 years later when they were cheap I got one, and my Wife was "You bought what??" Now we both love it,

The ad's were pants to say the least, they didn't convey ho0w good it was or what it could do


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

How cheap?

I found this http://www.currys.co.uk/product.php?sku=565388 and can't believe they got this low?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Gavin said:


> The ad's were pants to say the least, they didn't convey ho0w good it was or what it could do


I remember thinking, before TiVo was invented, how cool/useful it would be to have a machine that 'knew' when everything was on and could automatically record stuff based on pre-programmed preferences or keywords etc. But when TiVo was launched in the UK I completely missed the fact that it does just that 

To say the original advertising was pants is an undergarment


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> I found this http://www.currys.co.uk/product.php?sku=565388 and can't believe they got this low?


Well take heart - according to that they're only 'temporarily' out of stock


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

blindlemon said:


> Well take heart - according to that they're only 'temporarily' out of stock


Yeah, they're just as optimistic (deluded?) as us


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Well, I'm ever the optimist - so much so that I tried pressing the "Add" button on that page, and here's what I got:-


> SORRY
> Due to high demand the following item(s) are currently unavailable.
> *THOMSON TIVO Personal TV Recorder*


Quite right too


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## pgogborn (Nov 11, 2002)

cwaring said:


> Well that was conclusive


Not really.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> Well, I'm ever the optimist - so much so that I tried pressing the "Add" button on that page..


Glad it wasn't just me 



blindlemon said:


> To say the original advertising was pants is an undergarment


Speaking of spitting out liquids, you owe me a new monitor  Good job I haven't bought myself a new LCD one just yet


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## stevensdrs (Aug 10, 2005)

As an ex Thomson employee involved with the launch of TIVO in the UK, I concur that the advertising campaign was pants and totally missed the point. This was not unusual for Thomson; have you seen any of the ads for their own products?. The agencies they employed had little concept of the real world. TIVO were equally to blame, failing miserably to provide the consumer with an understanding of why they should pay a subscription. Now a little wiser they would certainly pitch a basic use with a free trial period for full functionality. Get the user hooked before asking for the money!!! 
The hardware was produced under contract for Thomson and did not come from one of their own factories. This might explain its reliability and apparent longevity. The only reason Thomson was a partner in the UK launch was due to them owning RCA in the US.
When it became apparent that the anticipated sales volumes would not be met, TIVOs gathering dust in Comet & Currys, the production run was cancelled and the current stock dumped at less than production cost. Most were then given away by retailers as free offers for buying a package of other TV products. I could have bought them new at £30.00 each. Oh for the benefit of foresight!

I can see the possibility for a new Tivo box for the UK based around a twin tuner freeview PVR with the Tivo service as a built in option. I cant imagine who would take on the hardware launch though!


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

I'd hope that if they do launch a new model, it will still have the option of an external STB. I doubt it'd be much use to me having a freeview TiVo in Sweden


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## HyperionX (Dec 30, 2002)

I would have thought that the cable TV companies in the UK would have been prime candidates for the hardware component...especially if the licensing deal and the compatibility to their own cable services was attractive enough....


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

HyperionX said:


> I would have thought that the cable TV companies in the UK would have been prime candidates for the hardware component...especially if the licensing deal and the compatibility to their own cable services was attractive enough....


That not going to happen TW have already launched their own HD PVR and NTL are well into the development of theirs.

I cannot see Tivo ever relaunching in the UK the subsription model for PVRs does not work in the UK, their are too many free options out there including MCE, with does have Season passes, Wish Lists etc.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

JonMace said:


> ... the subsription model for PVRs does not work in the UK, their are too many free options out there including MCE, with does have Season passes, Wish Lists etc.


The stupid thing is that, if you added the cost of the lifetime sub into the purchase price (including an element of retail store markup), it would still be cheaper than a Windows MCE setup. If they also sold the system direct over the Internet, they could recover some of that retailer markup. Apple manages to do that with the iPod, without undercutting their high-street retailers.

People are already paying £100-150 more for a Humax or Topfield PVR than for a bottom-end one, and they don't really compete with the TiVo's level of functionality (or reliability).


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

Raisltin Majere said:


> This comes back to a suggestion previously made by BlindLemon which, I believe, is common practice in the states.
> 
> Give the tivo service FOC for a period between 1 and 3 months then cut back to "basic" DVR functionality.


Yup - the drug pusher approach to sales 

It's how we pushed ADSL to customers when I worked for GTE in the US. We offered them a free upgrade of their line to ADSL (256kb, I think - woo!) for 6 months, and then dropped them back to basic service.


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## ndunlavey (Jun 4, 2002)

sanderton said:


> TiVo advertised a lot on TV, and in cinemas. They also ran a extensive campaign in magazines.


I can't for the life of me remember how I found out about TiVo. I must have seen a TV or mag advert for it, or maybe a mag review, but it hasn't stuck in my mind.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

iankb said:


> The stupid thing is that, if you added the cost of the lifetime sub into the purchase price (including an element of retail store markup), it would still be cheaper than a Windows MCE setup. If they also sold the system direct over the Internet, they could recover some of that retailer markup.


In the US, TiVo manage to 'hide' the cost ($155) of the sub for the first year by offering a $150 rebate if you pre-pay a year's sub. In the UK (at approximate currency conversion rates, rounded in TiVo's favour), this would translate as:-

80-hour TiVo box (full price £129.99 less £80 rebate).... £49.99 
12 months of service (£7.95/mo)............................... £95.40 
............................................................. TOTAL *£145.39*

I suspect an 80GB TiVo with a year's free service would sell pretty well in the UK at £145 :up:


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> I suspect an 80GB TiVo with a year's free service would sell pretty well in the UK at £145 :up:


I'd certainly try to afford one, but only if we could still swap or add hard drives. 80gb? Pah!


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

ndunlavey said:


> I can't for the life of me remember how I found out about TiVo. I must have seen a TV or mag advert for it, or maybe a mag review, but it hasn't stuck in my mind.


I saw a piece in a paper (can't remember which) it was about four lines long and was a couple o months before we got tivo in the UK.

Other than that I have never seen anything to advertise TiVo.

And nobody I know has heard of TiVo. Other than from me.


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## =CM= (Feb 22, 2005)

Interesting thread, especailly stevensdrs's info on the background to Tivo in the UK. The gear is top notch though: the rest of the pooters in my humble abode buzz from fans & HDs, the Tivo purrs if you listen clise up.

Speaking of purrs, apologies to the red-blooded out there for mixing up seven of nine with T'pol earlier! I could explain I wasn't focussing on the *head* in question during the re-re-replay...


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

kitschcamp said:


> I'd hope that if they do launch a new model, it will still have the option of an external STB. I doubt it'd be much use to me having a freeview TiVo in Sweden


I suspect it would need to have a CAM slot and VHF support to be useful? When I was in Stockholm in January (great short break if you like cold weather - which I do!) I saw that there were DVB-T services being marketed - but most of the channels seemed to be encrypted - so it is more like ONDigital than Freeview I guess. I don't know if VHF frequencies are being used in Sweden for DTT - but AIUI the UK is quite unusual in not using VHF for TV.

(We had 405 line services in Band I and III, and didn't ever introduce 625 services in these bands, so they closed when 405 did. A portion of Band III is used for DAB radio in the UK - but in other European countries it is used for both analogue and digital TV - not sure about Sweden)

(If they were smart Tivo and their partners would produce a DVB-T PVR with software CAM support - as TopUpTV compatibility is often implemented here - allowing the same PVR to be sold in all European DVB-T countries, whether they had FTA only or PayTV services. If there was a licence cost for the software then this could be implemented by making it a single-cost download - or just by selling the box for a slightly higher fee in countries that required it?)


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Personally I'm more interested in a new tivo still being able to hook up to a Sky box  Swedish DTV does seem to be predominantly pay tv. There are some free channels, if my translating is correct, but like on Sky for C4 and C5 requires a card to get them.


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