# Do HD's just need to reboot now and then?



## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I had an S2 DT for three years before switching to my HD. AFAIK the S2 was functioning perfectly when I shelved it. However about 2 or 3 times per year the S2 would just spontaneously reboot -- no relation to what it was doing at the time. No major problem -- didn't get worse -- so I just chalked it up to the nature of the beast. Given the presumed complexity of TiVo software, the need for an occasional reboot would not surprise me.

I just had my first spontaneous reboot on my HD, which seems to be functioning fine both before and after the reboot. I've had the HD for 4 months.

Some detail:

I have a Tuning Adapter, Digital Cable, and use HDMI to the TV.

I had just tuned to the local ABC affiliate station, which was playing fine. I clicked the remote info button and got no response. I tried other remote buttons, all with no response, although I noticed the amber light *was* responding. I decided to just wait a while to see if it cleared but after maybe 45 secs the TiVo rebooted.

There is another problem I've had occasionally. I would lose remote response at apparently random times. But this problem *is different *because the amber light was *not* responding. In all these cases either just waiting a while or power cycling the TV (*not* the TiVo) would regain the remote response and a TiVo reboot was not required. Thus I attributed this to an HDMI handshaking glitch. This problem has simple workarounds and doesn't occur often, so I live with it. Hasn't even been worth trying component connection to TV to see if it goes away.

So I'm wondering if occasional spontaneous reboots are normal ?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

No, they are not. I have only had a single reboot in two years with the TivoHD, and that occurred during loss of internet connectivity with Netflix (a known issue).

I think there are still some issues related to some tuning adapters.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> No, they are not. I have only had a single reboot in two years with the TivoHD, and that occurred during loss of internet connectivity with Netflix (a known issue).
> 
> I think there are still some issues related to some tuning adapters.


How about HDMI handshaking issues? Could they cause reboots? 
These will vary with the TV model or course.

Also, my TiVo is on a UPS but my TA is only on surge protection. I wonder if a power flicker (which didn't affect anything else in the house) could have caused this?

BTW: Am I correct that the HD only draws about 40 Watts or less? I was going by the manual which says 1 Amp. If it's only 40 Watts, my little UPS has enough cap. to also put the TA on it.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

dlfl said:


> How about HDMI handshaking issues? Could they cause reboots?
> These will vary with the TV model or course.
> 
> Also, my TiVo is on a UPS but my TA is only on surge protection. I wonder if a power flicker (which didn't affect anything else in the house) could have caused this?
> ...


This is just a wild guess, but it could be that with the TA not on the UPS, a power glitch could cause a reboot because the Tivo "lost" the TA. I know that is the case with external hard drives (got burned by that one, but only once!).


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Anything related to the TiVo should also be on a UPS, ie. tunning adpater, external drive,etc.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> Anything related to the TiVo should also be on a UPS, ie. tunning adpater, external drive,etc.


Yeah, I really knew this deep in my soul. I just wasn't sure my little UPS could handle both TiVo and TA.

Can anyone verify the HD only draws about 40 Watts or less? The manual says 1 Amp (i.e., 120 Watts), but typically those ratings are peak, max numbers.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Another question I just thought of:

If I call TiVo support what are the odds they can (and will) look in the logs of my TiVo and tell me something useful about my spontaneous reboot?

Also, do I have to worry about them seeing I've upgraded my internal drive to 1 TB?


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Yeah, I really knew this deep in my soul. I just wasn't sure my little UPS could handle both TiVo and TA.
> 
> Can anyone verify the HD only draws about 40 Watts or less? The manual says 1 Amp (i.e., 120 Watts), but typically those ratings are peak, max numbers.


With a 1TB WD10EVVS, my TivoHD draws ~34 watts.



dlfl said:


> If I call TiVo support what are the odds they can (and will) look in the logs of my TiVo and tell me something useful about my spontaneous reboot?


Unless you are a beta tester, logging isn't enabled on your TiVo.



dlfl said:


> Also, do I have to worry about them seeing I've upgraded my internal drive to 1 TB?


I believe their system would show that. They may or may not refuse support.

I'm not sure what TiVo could tell you that you can't learn here, however.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> ........I'm not sure what TiVo could tell you that you can't learn here, however.


Probably true! Thanks.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> With a 1TB WD10EVVS, my TivoHD draws ~34 watts.
> 
> Unless you are a beta tester, logging isn't enabled on your TiVo.
> 
> ...


My S3 boxes and TiVoHD boxes also draw approximately 34 watts.


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## akakii (Dec 17, 2003)

For what it's worth, I'm having the EXACT same problem with mine with the exact same setup. It spontaneously rebooted yesterday but then worked fine for another 24 hours. Just now I had the experience of it not responding to the remote and it rebooted again, but this time it never finished the process. Once it went past the powering up/welcome screen, it then lost the signal and the screen went blank. I tried unplugging and restarting several times and had the exact same results. I've had too long a day to deal with support right now, but I'll call them tomorrow to see what's going on.



dlfl said:


> I had an S2 DT for three years before switching to my HD. AFAIK the S2 was functioning perfectly when I shelved it. However about 2 or 3 times per year the S2 would just spontaneously reboot -- no relation to what it was doing at the time. No major problem -- didn't get worse -- so I just chalked it up to the nature of the beast. Given the presumed complexity of TiVo software, the need for an occasional reboot would not surprise me.
> 
> I just had my first spontaneous reboot on my HD, which seems to be functioning fine both before and after the reboot. I've had the HD for 4 months.
> 
> ...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

akakii said:


> For what it's worth, I'm having the EXACT same problem with mine with the exact same setup. It spontaneously rebooted yesterday but then worked fine for another 24 hours. Just now I had the experience of it not responding to the remote and it rebooted again, but this time it never finished the process. Once it went past the powering up/welcome screen, it then lost the signal and the screen went blank. I tried unplugging and restarting several times and had the exact same results. I've had too long a day to deal with support right now, but I'll call them tomorrow to see what's going on.


I haven't had any more spontaneous reboots since my original post, but I did get the GSAS (green screen and siren) once recently and had to reboot.

You probably should eliminate potential HDMI handshake problems from the mix by switching to component cables. I just did that tonight because I've been getting a lot of tune failures, followed by black screen and no remote response until I power cycle the TV. Others have done this. If your TV is more than 40" you might see slightly reduced picture quality with component.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> I had an S2 DT for three years before switching to my HD. AFAIK the S2 was functioning perfectly when I shelved it. However about 2 or 3 times per year the S2 would just spontaneously reboot -- no relation to what it was doing at the time. No major problem -- didn't get worse -- so I just chalked it up to the nature of the beast. Given the presumed complexity of TiVo software, the need for an occasional reboot would not surprise me.
> 
> I just had my first spontaneous reboot on my HD, which seems to be functioning fine both before and after the reboot. I've had the HD for 4 months.
> 
> ...


Another spontaneous reboot tonight. Everything normal, just doing what it always does at that time of the evening. Then I hit the Live TV button and it switched the video to the other channel, but did not update the guide data -- still showed the channel I had been watching. The remote response was locked up. No response to any remote keys (except TV volume), but the yellow light was responding. Finally the yellow light went on solid and shortly after that it rebooted.

I'm now running on component cables to the TV, so HDMI problems can be ruled out. Both TiVo and TA are on a UPS and the TA was solid green both before and after rebooting.

I installed a 1 TB internal drive on 9/9/09 but there has been no sign to indicate a drive problem. No additional pixelation or menu delays.

One long shot: Although I'm using component to the TV, the HDMI cable I had been using is still connected to TiVo and TV. (I just select the component input on the TV.) It's been running fine that way for 10 days at least. I wonder if a HDMI glitch could still have been the culprit? The TV is just on surge protection. Maybe a power line glitch caused the TV to glitch the still-connected HDMI?


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

I have an S3 connected by HDMI to a Samsung 40" LCD, and can't remember the last time it booted (a couple of months at least). Same with my HDs, one by HDMI, one by DVI, and one by component cables. The S3 and one HD have cablecards and TAs, and the other two are analog cable and OTA.

You might remove the HDMI cable if you suspect it. You can also check the TV manufacturer's web site to see if they have updated firmware. I ha to update the Samsung firmware as it kept losing the audio over the HDMI. There was a thread on that issue in these forums, or I might not have figured it out.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

lafos said:


> I have an S3 connected by HDMI to a Samsung 40" LCD, and can't remember the last time it booted (a couple of months at least). Same with my HDs, one by HDMI, one by DVI, and one by component cables. The S3 and one HD have cablecards and TAs, and the other two are analog cable and OTA.
> 
> You might remove the HDMI cable if you suspect it. You can also check the TV manufacturer's web site to see if they have updated firmware. I ha to update the Samsung firmware as it kept losing the audio over the HDMI. There was a thread on that issue in these forums, or I might not have figured it out.


My TV is also a Samsung 40", bought in July this year. When did you update your software? The latest update is dated 10/16/09. I've downloaded it but haven't installed it yet.

Also, at 8pm tonight both tuners started recording HD channels. Shortly after that I went to switch channels with the live TV button and there was no response. I didn't note whether the yellow light responded or not. However after 10 or 20 seconds the remote response returned and all seems OK now. Does anyone else get things like this?


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## spepin (Apr 12, 2002)

I have a similar problem. Not the rebooting issue, but the loss of remote issue. I, too switched one of my S2 devices for an HD. The first time it happened was during initial setup. I attributed it to a glitch and just power cycled the TiVo. It happened again that evening. I returned it to TiVo, who replaced it with another new unit. The new unit has done this several times so far, but over a period of two to three weeks. I thought at first it was going "blind" from compact fluorescent lights, or dimmer flicker, because if I held the remote right up to the front of the DVR, it would start responding again. Tonight however, it lost response and would not regain it. I power cycled once and still had no response. During a subsequent power cycle, I logged on to the forums and saw your post. This time, after the reboot, when it still would not respond, I turned the TV off and as soon as I did, I noticed the amber remote LED come on and it once again responded to the remote. After turning the TV back on, it was still good. I'm glad I saw your post because it's much easier to cycle the TV than the TiVo.

My setup is 52" Sharp Aquos, but no tuning adapter. I wonder if the IR receiver is getting "blinded" by the LCD backlight. I'm curious how many DVR's TiVo is replacing under warranty for this very problem... The next time it happens, I'll try disconnecting the HDMI cable instead of cycling the TV to test the handshake theory.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

spepin said:


> I have a similar problem. Not the rebooting issue, but the loss of remote issue. I, too switched one of my S2 devices for an HD. The first time it happened was during initial setup. I attributed it to a glitch and just power cycled the TiVo. It happened again that evening. I returned it to TiVo, who replaced it with another new unit. The new unit has done this several times so far, but over a period of two to three weeks. I thought at first it was going "blind" from compact fluorescent lights, or dimmer flicker, because if I held the remote right up to the front of the DVR, it would start responding again. Tonight however, it lost response and would not regain it. I power cycled once and still had no response. During a subsequent power cycle, I logged on to the forums and saw your post. This time, after the reboot, when it still would not respond, I turned the TV off and as soon as I did, I noticed the amber remote LED come on and it once again responded to the remote. After turning the TV back on, it was still good. I'm glad I saw your post because it's much easier to cycle the TV than the TiVo.
> 
> My setup is 52" Sharp Aquos, but no tuning adapter. I wonder if the IR receiver is getting "blinded" by the LCD backlight. I'm curious how many DVR's TiVo is replacing under warranty for this very problem... The next time it happens, I'll try disconnecting the HDMI cable instead of cycling the TV to test the handshake theory.


There have been reports of Samsung TV's causing remote interference during a few mins. after turn on. I notice reduced remote sensitivity for a minute or two on mine -- have to aim the remote exactly at the TiVo.

I have a hunch about the type of remote lockup where the yellow light is still responding: If you punch a lot of remote keys after you notice the lockup I think you actually provoke a reboot. If you just wait (perhaps a minute) the chances are better it will recover. It fits a model of a buffer of remote keystrokes that is building up because the TiVo is too busy to respond. If you exceed the buffer capacity with too many events waiting to be processed, it reboots. Just a theory. Seems like it should just ignore keystrokes once the buffer is full, but no software is perfect. And of course: *why does it get so busy it can't respond?* One answer is hard disk errors, which require many read/write retries thus slowing the processor down. However, I very much doubt that is the case for my unit, as I see no other symptoms, and it seems unlikely for your case given you've tried two new units.


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## cstacy (May 14, 2009)

I have recently begun seeing these symptoms, also: first the TiVo stops responding to the remote (but the light on the box flashes, so it's hearing it), then TiVo reboots. I have a tuning adapter, and the 1TB external drive from TiVo. I'm on a UPS.

I've had the unit a little less than a year, and it just started doing this recently.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Mine's done this several times but only since I got the TA. Since the 11.0g software update, I've had 3 times where the Tivo stops responding at all. I'll be watching live TV and it will continue to work, but ceases to respond to ANY remote inputs (no Guide, cannot switch to other Tuner, cannot access Tivo Central, etc.)

Only a reboot of the unit (ie, unplugging in) will let it work again.

I've got a TivoHD.

I've even replaced the hard drive in case that was it, but I think it's a software problem and related to the Tuning Adapter.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

If remote response is missing and the amber light does NOT blink when you hit remote keys, you could have the well know problem of spurious IR from your LCD TV interfering with the remote. This normally only occurs when either (1) the video signal is black or very dark or (2) during TV warmup when the spurious light is greater. To check this out you need to reduce the IR light getting from your TV to the TiVo and/or increase the IR light getting to the TiVo from your remote. (In my case I can just stand right in front of the TV to partially block it, and hold the remote near the TiVo.)

However, I continue to get occasional lockups where the amber light DOES respond, at least for a while -- until it finally stops responding and the TiVo eventually reboots, or I power cycle it. I'm seeing no other signs of hard drive failure so I too think it's a TiVo software problem, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if it's related to the TA. I think the TA was a desperation fix in response to SDV implementation, and TiVo simply didn't have the time and resources to thoroughly debug its software that interfaces with the TA -- something which would have required extensive field work in several cable systems.


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## CatMoran (Dec 25, 2009)

I'm seeing the rebooting problem on my TiVo HD. No remote issues as far as I can tell, it continues to respond to the remote up until a few seconds before it reboots (and in many cases I'm not using the remote at all when the TiVo reboots.)

Usual symptom: I'm watching something the TiVo recorded, and it suddenly goes to the "Powering up" screen. Sometimes it gets caught in a loop where it's constantly rebooting, with anywhere from 15 seconds to ~2 minutes between completion of one reboot and the next reboot. Unplugging it for several seconds seems to stop that. ("Seems to" because it could be coincidence, and because I'm usually so fed up at that point that I switch to watching something on DVD or AppleTV.)

At first I thought it was the Tuning Adapter, but I took it completely out of the loop (unplugged the USB cable, and routed the RF cable straight from the wall to the TiVo), and it continued to do it. Then I figured it was the power, so I moved the TiVo onto the (tiny) USB my cable modem and router are plugged into. The problem continued.

The one thing I haven't checked is switching from HDMI to Component, I'll try that tonight. (And I'll be pretty ticked off if it works, because that'll leave nowhere to plug in my Wii. Yay for one multi-purpose Component/AV input on the TV. Not.)

I have no idea when the problem started, prior to a week ago there was a period of about 3 months where I barely watched any TV. But the last time the TiVo missed recording anything was back when it last had the "hangs on reboot" issue sometime in January, and since I've started watching TV and noticed the issue I have missed a few recordings. Possibly not coincidentally, I started watching TV again when I got a new TV -- and switched the TiVo to an HDMI input.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

CatMoran said:


> ..........
> At first I thought it was the Tuning Adapter, but I took it completely out of the loop (unplugged the USB cable, and routed the RF cable straight from the wall to the TiVo), and it continued to do it. Then I figured it was the power, so I moved the TiVo onto the (tiny) USB my cable modem and router are plugged into. The problem continued.
> 
> The one thing I haven't checked is switching from HDMI to Component, I'll try that tonight. (And I'll be pretty ticked off if it works, because that'll leave nowhere to plug in my Wii. Yay for one multi-purpose Component/AV input on the TV. Not.)
> .........


I gave up using HDMI months ago just to take that out of the equation for lockups. I'm not sure whether there was a separate HDMI issue, or it was just mixing in with the remote-control IR-interference issue. I've been thinking about trying HDMI again. I'm convinced the TiVo HDMI interface is not as robust as it should be. I use HDMI with this same TV and a DVD player with absolutely no issues.

MIssed recordings, due to failure to tune SDV channels on the first (and only) try is fairly common, at least among TWC subscribers. If you're still getting missed recordings with the TA out of the picture that is something else.


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## CatMoran (Dec 25, 2009)

dlfl said:


> MIssed recordings, due to failure to tune SDV channels on the first (and only) try is fairly common, at least among TWC subscribers. If you're still getting missed recordings with the TA out of the picture that is something else.


I'm pretty sure that's not it. The "missed" recordings I've been seeing recently are actually incomplete recordings. Typically I'll get 10-30 minutes of the first half of a show, with an optional second recording of another 10-20 minutes later in the show. Pretty much what you'd expect to see if the TiVo powered off or rebooted in the middle of recording something.

And the missed recording back in January was actually three solid days of no recordings, because it had been stuck on the 'welcome' screen the whole time. (Ok, so I ignored the TV for closer to four months. Yay TiVo for recording almost everything for me while I ignored it?)


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

I was seeing the three part recordings (reboot..) on my HD. It seemed to be signal related as it happened mostly on certain channels. When I got my new Premiere XL I ran it side by side with the HD with all the same recordings scheduled. (SD menus on Premiere to be apples to apples) On several occasions the HD rebooted while the Premiere had no issues. 

This had been one of my only complaints with my HD. After a few weeks of side by side I ordered another Premeire to replace the HD. Not a single three part recording on either machine since.


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## CatMoran (Dec 25, 2009)

Ugh. So I tried switching the TiVo from HDMI to component last night. I didn't really have time to check it out, though it didn't have any problems in the 30 minutes or so I watched it.

This afternoon I got home to find it stuck on the "just a few more minutes" screen, and the TA was doing the 6-blink thing. (Which I've never seen it do before.) It has to be a coincidence, but I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about this.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

CatMoran said:


> Ugh. So I tried switching the TiVo from HDMI to component last night. I didn't really have time to check it out, though it didn't have any problems in the 30 minutes or so I watched it.
> 
> This afternoon I got home to find it stuck on the "just a few more minutes" screen, and the TA was doing the 6-blink thing. (Which I've never seen it do before.) It has to be a coincidence, but I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about this.


The 6-blink signal just means the TA isn't communicating with the TiVo -- that is normal during the early boot up phase. Any other blink pattern would not be normal.


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## empiretc (Apr 2, 2010)

m_jonis said:


> Mine's done this several times but only since I got the TA. Since the 11.0g software update, I've had 3 times where the Tivo stops responding at all. I'll be watching live TV and it will continue to work, but ceases to respond to ANY remote inputs (no Guide, cannot switch to other Tuner, cannot access Tivo Central, etc.)
> 
> Only a reboot of the unit (ie, unplugging in) will let it work again.
> 
> I've got a TivoHD.


I had the exact same situation. I ended up RMAing mine.


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## CatMoran (Dec 25, 2009)

I think my HD is just dying. I tried every combination of TA and not, Cablecard and not, and plugging it into a different TV via component. It finally got to the point where it goes straight from one reboot to the next, assuming it even completes the reboot and doesn't freeze or restart in the middle.


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## empiretc (Apr 2, 2010)

CatMoran said:


> I think my HD is just dying. I tried every combination of TA and not, Cablecard and not, and plugging it into a different TV via component. It finally got to the point where it goes straight from one reboot to the next, assuming it even completes the reboot and doesn't freeze or restart in the middle.


Yep, just like mine was doing. I gave up. They wanted to charge me $50 for the return but I fought them until they waived it. I still had to pay the $20 shipping though. Hopefully the replacement (refurb ) will be ok.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Another spontaneous reboot tonight. They always seem to happen within a few seconds after hitting the Live TV button to switch channels. Sometimes there's a period where there is no remote response except the amber light before it reboots. Other times, like tonight, it just reboots. This is happening every 2 or 3 weeks since getting 11.0g. But it had happened before 11.0g too.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Another spontaneous reboot tonight. They always seem to happen within a few seconds after hitting the Live TV button to switch channels. Sometimes there's a period where there is no remote response except the amber light before it reboots. Other times, like tonight, it just reboots. This is happening every 2 or 3 weeks since getting 11.0g. But it had happened before 11.0g too.


Yes, I've noticed that too. I don't recall having it happen before 11.0g, but it's definitely happened frequently since. I think 3 times in the last 2 weeks.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

m_jonis said:


> Yes, I've noticed that too. I don't recall having it happen before 11.0g, but it's definitely happened frequently since. I think 3 times in the last 2 weeks.


That may be a sign of hard disk trouble. I have 4 active TiVo HDs and I haven't seen a reboot on any of them since 11.0g.

I haven't proactively rebooted any of my boxes lately, but I think that's a good idea. Helps combat any residual memory leaks, etc. There's very little software of any kind out there that's perfect.


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## ReggieBarton (May 14, 2010)

IMHO too many people with Tivo HDs are having this same issue at once. Mine is STOCK and 5 months old. Never ANY issues at all, then all of a sudden the rebooting... I smell software problems.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> ........I haven't proactively rebooted any of my boxes lately, but I think that's a good idea. Helps combat any residual memory leaks, etc. There's very little software of any kind out there that's perfect.


My intuition agrees with that but I've seen forum posters claim they never reboot and their boxes never reboot themselves.


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## CALover (Mar 4, 2009)

I have also been having the same problems with the remote lock-up/non-response (amber light blinks), repeated reboots, and missing programs. I'm up late at night and find the times I'm missing recordings coincides with the time they want to download their "Enhanced content". I called support and was offered an upgrade for a price, but my Tivo was working fine until a couple of months ago and now it's behaving very badly. I, too, tend to think (hope!) it's software related, but I'm certainly not an expert. 

I have a TivoHD, TA, and it's on a wireless network. It's just a little over a year old.


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## comgenius1 (Feb 16, 2004)

I've noticed with my S2 DT that if you get it backlogged with remote presses, it'll reboot as its overwhelmed. If I hit a couple buttons and it doesnt do anything, I stop pressing buttons, and it'll usually fix itself. If its a menu that is taking forever, I hit the live tv (I think) to get out and then go back in. If I were to let it sit instead, it would most likely reboot. 

Basically what i'm saying, is if I try and cram a bunch of remote presses down its throat when its lagging, it's probably gonna reboot.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Aha! I believe I've figure it out for my TivoHD anyway.

It seems to be related to the TA and/or USB communication to the TivoHD.

It's frozen every weeks. In every case, I've just had to unplug the USB cable or the TA and all of a sudden the Tivo will respond and behave.

Of course, then the TA won't behave (it just gives me the flashing light) and the Tivo won't detect the TA via the USB cable again until I reboot the TivoHD.

So that tells me it's NOT the hard drive and either:
a) Problem with the Tivo software and how it detects/talks to the TA (Cisco STA unit)
b) USB communication problem (I've used diff. USB cables as well as a diff. USB port on the Tivo)
c) The TA (I've already had it replaced once)
d) Possibly something with Time Warner sending the "hit" out (I've never looked at the subscription expiration on the TA)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Another spontaneous reboot today, averaging about one every two weeks lately. This time the remote response vanished although the yellow light was responding. After a minute or two it rebooted itself. No signs of any other problem -- i.e., no reason to suspect the hard drive.

Actually earlier today I turned on the TV and suspected it may have rebooted because both tuners were on the same channel and all the menu entry points were reset to defaults instead of remembering where I had last been -- I don't know any way other than a TiVo reboot that these conditions occur. I can tell the TA hasn't rebooted for over a month (by it's status info).


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

I got one last night as well. Right in the middle of recording stuff of course (and it takes like 12 minutes for it to reboot and come up fully). How do you check the TA?

I seem to remember that there is/was a TA bug that would cause the Tivo to reboot. I thought it had been fixed, but this IS TW that we're talking about it.

I was too lazy to disconnect the USB cable when it wouldn't respond to remote inputs last night (of course, if I unplug the USB then the Tivo can't get the SDV channel it was recording).

I guess I'll start a log of when it happens


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> .........How do you check the TA?
> ........


In Tuning Adapter Diagnostics:
Status Summary
Next Page
Near bottom of page is Booted: <date/time>
This is for the Cisco SA1520 TA.

I should have tried turning my TV off. I switched back to HDMI output recently so the lock up could have been an HDMI glitch.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Thanks, I'll take a look at that and also the HDMI thingy


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Another remote lockup followed by reboot today, only two days after the previous one. I clicked to the NPL, which always fills slowly. (Is that normal with 1 TB capacity?) This time it painted just the "Recently Deleted" and the "Netflix" lines at the bottom and then hung. Knowing how Netflix can cause lockups/reboots if the internet connection glitches, I can't help suspecting this actually had to do with that. I'm wondering if Netflix wasn't selected from the last time I was on the NPL and it hung some way due to that. I'm going to make sure Netflix isn't currently selected whenever I leave the NPL to see if that helps.

I've had the problem of Netflix disappearing from the NPL (requiring connecting to TiVo mothership to fix) recently. I wonder if the reason Netflix disappears from the NPL is that TiVo knows it can hang the system and removes it as a defensive measure based on detecting some likely problem with the Netflix connection.

This time I power-cycled the TV twice just to rule out an HDMI problem -- no effect on the remote lockup at all.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Another remote lockup followed by reboot today, only two days after the previous one. I clicked to the NPL, which always fills slowly. (Is that normal with 1 TB capacity?) This time it painted just the "Recently Deleted" and the "Netflix" lines at the bottom and then hung. Knowing how Netflix can cause lockups/reboots if the internet connection glitches, I can't help suspecting this actually had to do with that. I'm wondering if Netflix wasn't selected from the last time I was on the NPL and it hung some way due to that. I'm going to make sure Netflix isn't currently selected whenever I leave the NPL to see if that helps.
> 
> I've had the problem of Netflix disappearing from the NPL (requiring connecting to TiVo mothership to fix) recently. I wonder if the reason Netflix disappears from the NPL is that TiVo knows it can hang the system and removes it as a defensive measure based on detecting some likely problem with the Netflix connection.
> 
> This time I power-cycled the TV twice just to rule out an HDMI problem -- no effect on the remote lockup at all.


What happens if you unplug the USB from the TA? (at least if it "freezes" up)?

So far, that fixes it for me. (ie, I go into NPL and all I will get is the background screen and nothing else).

Unfortunately once the USB is unplugged, (and I get the "you don't have a TA connected" message), the TA starts a steady blinking on it and even when I plug it back in, the Tivo won't find it again so I can only get non-SDV channels.

Power cycling the TA at that point won't get it working again (just steady blinking light).

Power cycling the Tivo at that point gets things working. Of course it's about a 12 minute reboot cycle before you can actually start watching NPL or LiveTV.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> What happens if you unplug the USB from the TA? (at least if it "freezes" up)?
> 
> So far, that fixes it for me. (ie, I go into NPL and all I will get is the background screen and nothing else).
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've been wondering about the USB thing and may try it next time. Sounds like it gets you out of the lock up but then you have to reboot the TiVo anyway to get your channels back. Thus it isn't much of a work around -- but it's interesting from a diagnostic POV, i.e., it points the finger at the TA USB interface as the culprit.

If there was just some way to get the TiVo to go through the "Acquiring Channels" process (without rebooting it) after reconnecting the USB, it would actually be a much less painful workaround to the problem. Someone once told me you can force acquiring channels with guided setup but I don't see how that would work, or at least wouldn't be a cure worse than the disease.

Note there is another well known TA-related problem, failure to tune SDV channels requiring a retry (**this** for example), that already points a finger at the USB interface!


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Another Remote lockup followed by reboot today -- happening every two days now. I tried disconnecting the TA USB cable this time. It seemed to work but when I went back to live TV remote response was locked up again and then it rebooted.

It's hard to suspect the hard drive since I see absolutely no signs (pixellation, freezes) of a HDD problem, but I guess I'll have to run some kick start tests and maybe remove the drive for testing with mfr's diagnostics, connected to a PC. It's a WD10EADS that I installed less than a year ago.

I have been watching Netflix more frequently the last few days -- can't help but be suspicious of a possible connection there. My intuition is some threads associated with Netflix get left dangling and eventually go beyond the OS capacity.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

dlfl said:


> Another Remote lockup followed by reboot today -- happening every two days now. I tried disconnecting the TA USB cable this time. It seemed to work but when I went back to live TV remote response was locked up again and then it rebooted.
> 
> It's hard to suspect the hard drive since I see absolutely no signs (pixellation, freezes) of a HDD problem, but I guess I'll have to run some kick start tests and maybe remove the drive for testing with mfr's diagnostics, connected to a PC. It's a WD10EADS that I installed less than a year ago.
> 
> I have been watching Netflix more frequently the last few days -- can't help but be suspicious of a possible connection there. My intuition is some threads associated with Netflix get left dangling and eventually go beyond the OS capacity.


In my case I know it's not the HDD as I just put a brand new one in to rule that out (even ran the FULL diagnostics on the old one that took 8 hours). NO errors either.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> In my case I know it's not the HDD as I just put a brand new one in to rule that out (even ran the FULL diagnostics on the old one that took 8 hours). NO errors either.


Yeah I did the same full diagnostics on my HDD before I installed it last September, but some months have now passed. I don't think it's my HDD but I'm tempted to transfer all the recordings I want to save to my PC and remove it and redo the extended diagnostics --just to prove it. I have a backup image of a TiVo system prior to 11.0g and I think I would restore that rather than my current 11.0g. There is a possibility the current system is corrupted and doing it that way will force an update to 11.0g from TiVo rather than just installing the possibly corrupt version.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> In my case I know it's not the HDD as I just put a brand new one in to rule that out (even ran the FULL diagnostics on the old one that took 8 hours). NO errors either.


I just realized you said you ran the diagnostics on your old HDD -- you mean the one you just removed? And you were experiencing the reboots with this old drive, correct? That certainly proves it wasn't the HDD.

How much do you use Netflix, if at all? Ever suspect a connection to that usage?


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Well I think I have two different issues happening here.

the last 3 times that the unit has auto-rebooted (ie, I didn't do anything, or notice a lockup) it has happened at exactly the same time (8:00 p.m.) I know that because I lost 12 minutes of each show it was supposed to record.

Right now it's rebooting on me.

Sounds like the Cisco bug where the TW 'hit" to renew the sub expiration date would cause the Tivo to reboot.

Of course I don't have another TivoHD (and I refuse to buy another because TW sets the CCI byte on ALL channels except local HD so I can't do MRV or TTG).

I guess I'll have to schedule a truck roll to get a new TA.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> .........Sounds like the Cisco bug where the TW 'hit" to renew the sub expiration date would cause the Tivo to reboot.
> .........I guess I'll have to schedule a truck roll to get a new TA.


If it is that you should be able to see an updated "Sub Expires" date in TA diagnostics.

I had 4 remote-control lockup/reboots in 24 hours two days ago, with only 2 hrs between the last two. These were all the kind where the amber light responds to the remote but the TiVo doesn't -- then it reboots after a minute or so. I did kick start tests, which were strange because KS57 and KS58 completed in only a few minutes. I was about to pull the drive for testing but decided to revert back to component output first. That was 37 hours ago and so far -- no lockups, no reboots! And I have done a lot of TTG and Netflix in that time too.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

If anyone cares, I've never had a spontaneous reboot in the 9 months I've had my TivoHD, connected via HDMI, with a 1TB internal drive.

I do think the TivoHD has a weak HDMI implementation. Often when I switch TV inputs from my S2DT or Sony Blu-ray player to the TivoHD, I will get a blank screen, or green static. I just switch to another input then back to the TivoHD once or twice, and that fixes the problem. A bit annoying but nothing major - it only takes a few more seconds. I've never had this problem with my Blu-ray player which is also connected via HDMI.

I have had one remote control lockup where the amber light would go on and the TivoHD wouldn't respond, but I just waited about 30 seconds and everything started working again. No reboot.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

My HDMI interface is a little glitchy too. Sometimes when I switch input back to the TiVo, I don't get sound. If I switch tunners or cycle the input, it comes back. Happens rarely so I just live with it.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

dlfl said:


> If it is that you should be able to see an updated "Sub Expires" date in TA diagnostics.
> 
> I had 4 remote-control lockup/reboots in 24 hours two days ago, with only 2 hrs between the last two. These were all the kind where the amber light responds to the remote but the TiVo doesn't -- then it reboots after a minute or so. I did kick start tests, which were strange because KS57 and KS58 completed in only a few minutes. I was about to pull the drive for testing but decided to revert back to component output first. That was 37 hours ago and so far -- no lockups, no reboots! And I have done a lot of TTG and Netflix in that time too.


I may have a pair of component cables laying around that I may be able to use.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

60 hrs on component cables now with no lockups/reboots.

I had noticed hum in the audio using component. I use "Auto Volume" on the TV and the hum was noticeable during quiet program intervals or on menus (having no audio). I suspected a grounding problem and finally did something about it yesterday, by running a wire from the AC outlet ground to a clamp on the outer shell of the coax cable connector at the wall plate. This did the trick. Before doing this the AC voltage between those two points measured 140 mV.

I wonder if that could have caused problems with the HDMI, triggering my lockups?

Meanwhile I have new HDMI cables on order, in case a bad cable was the problem. I'm hard pressed to detect a picture quality difference between component and HDMI on my 40" TV, so if running component solves my lockup problems, it's an acceptable solution (now that the hum is gone).


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

You feel like experimenting? Detach the components, switch back to your HDMI cable but leave the ground in place. Worth checking your coax and terminals all the way to the ONT. By any chance are you using an amplified antenna?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

hmm52 said:


> You feel like experimenting? Detach the components, switch back to your HDMI cable but leave the ground in place. Worth checking your coax and terminals all the way to the ONT. By any chance are you using an amplified antenna?


I plan to try HDMI again (with the ground) when I get the new cables I ordered. I have one continuous RG6 cable from the wall plate to a splitter in the outside cable box.

I've seen forum posts where there were 100's of volts on the cable ground relative to AC ground -- raises interesting questions doesn't it?


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

I raised the point because I once had stray voltage from antenna coax (roof unit with preamp) cause immediate reapeatable reboots when connected. My thought was that you might not have an HDMI issue, cable or otherwise, but that the component cables are acting as grounds to bleed off voltage at the inputs. Thus the experiment suggestion.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

I had to learn the clean ground lesson myself the hard way.

Grounds on AC outlets are very dirty. They can pick up all kinds of stray voltage as they daisy chain to other outlets on their way to the electrical panel. Using an outlet ground anywhere on your coax run can create a ground loop which induces that stray voltage into the signal. Lots of strange things can happen.

Coax should only be grounded to the main electrical panel with a dedicated run. Normally, that would be at the cable ground block adjacent to the electrical panel. That provides the least shared path to the actual ground rod and the cleanest ground. Don't ground coax to an AC outlet or use a coax surge protector built into an AC surge protector. Those use the outlet ground on the coax.


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## hmm52 (Feb 25, 2008)

Excellent point. The only ground I have is at the ONT - to a copper plumbing pipe. The nearby splitter was also grounded but was detached by a Verizon tech who recommended against it several years ago. What do you think?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

CraigHB said:


> I had to learn the clean ground lesson myself the hard way.
> 
> Grounds on AC outlets are very dirty. They can pick up all kinds of stray voltage as they daisy chain to other outlets on their way to the electrical panel. Using an outlet ground anywhere on your coax run can create a ground loop which induces that stray voltage into the signal. Lots of strange things can happen.
> 
> Coax should only be grounded to the main electrical panel with a dedicated run. Normally, that would be at the cable ground block adjacent to the electrical panel. That provides the least shared path to the actual ground rod and the cleanest ground. Don't ground coax to an AC outlet or use a coax surge protector built into an AC surge protector. Those use the outlet ground on the coax.


Our house is 11 years old and the AC Panel is in the basement. Power lines and cable TV are underground here. The power meter, telephone (POT), and cable boxes are clustered on the exterior wall close to the AC panel. The only ground rod I see is a small one with a wire coming out of the POT box to it. I'm not sure what a "cable ground block" would look like but I'm pretty sure there isn't one near my panel box. I suspect there is NO ground connection between the cable box and the power line ground -- certainly don't see one.

I am guessing the TiVo was serving as the ground connection and that's why the hum level dropped so much when I grounded between the AC outlet and the cable coax at the wall plate.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

If your dwelling is built to code, there is a ground rod that is connected to the main electrical panel. Often, the rod itself is built into the foundation so you might be able to see a big 2 or 4 gauge conductor running up from the foundation somewhere, usually close to the electrical panel. 

All of the electrical grounds inside the panel are bolted to the metal panel itself. A ground conductor bolted cleanly to the exterior of the panel is adequate since there's a solid connection there. Normally, you would see a 6 or 8 gauge wire running from the electrical panel to your phone and cable demarcation boxes (service boxes) to provide grounds at those points. 

To inspect the ground block, you would likely need to open the demarcation box. Cable companies lock those service boxes if the "tap" is located there. That's often the case in multi-unit buildings. In single family homes, they don't normally lock the demarcation box since the tap is usually located in a street-side panel.

If your cable is not properly grounded at the demarcation point, it's possible grounding somewhere else could reduce a ground problem. A dirty ground can be better than no ground, but it's still not a good idea to ground that way. The only way to properly ground your cable drop is with a ground block wired to the electrical panel. 

At one point, I was thinking of adding a ground rod myself for a rooftop antenna. With the high potential for lightning strikes, I didn't want to ground it to my home's electrical system. However, I found it's not an easy thing to do. You have to install one with certain materials in a specific way and it can be very difficult to do yourself. It's pretty expensive to have one done properly. I ended up grounding the rooftop antenna to the home's copper pipe. Copper pipe in a home is normally grounded to the home's electrical panel and "can" provide a clean ground, but I wouldn't just assme that.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> ......I had 4 remote-control lockup/reboots in 24 hours two days ago, with only 2 hrs between the last two. These were all the kind where the amber light responds to the remote but the TiVo doesn't -- then it reboots after a minute or so. I did kick start tests, which were strange because KS57 and KS58 completed in only a few minutes. I was about to pull the drive for testing but decided to revert back to component output first. That was 37 hours ago and so far -- no lockups, no reboots! And I have done a lot of TTG and Netflix in that time too.


Well, 8 days with no reboots after switching to component output. But today it rebooted. This one was completely spontaneous, i.e., not related to any remote control activity or lockup.

At least it seems possible the component connection eliminates the remote control lockup-related reboots. I was already having the other kind of reboot (totally spontaneous) every couple of weeks. Looks like two different things going on.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Mind rebooted twice yesterday as well. One was "spontaneous" the other was the "lockup" where I couldn't switch tuners.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I hope anyone having spontaneous reboots will post here. I'd like to know if this only affects a few of us or if many are experiencing it.


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

I had them often on my HD. Recently upgraded to a Premiere and have not had one since. I actually ran both for a while and had several reboots on the HD while the Premiere successfully recorded the same program with no issues. (I am using the SD menus on the Premiere)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

DeWitt said:


> I had them often on my HD. Recently upgraded to a Premiere and have not had one since. I actually ran both for a while and had several reboots on the HD while the Premiere successfully recorded the same program with no issues. (I am using the SD menus on the Premiere)


Were you using a TA on your HD? Were your reboots preceded by remote control lockups (yellow light blinks but TiVo doesn't respond), or did they just happen at random times?

Is your Premiere hookup identical to what you used for the HD?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ChinaBull has reported two reboots thought to be related to the TA, see **this** for details.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

My wife's THD with TA has had a couple spontaneous reboots over the last week or so. Ive not seen any on my S3 with TA.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

SCSIRAID said:


> My wife's THD with TA has had a couple spontaneous reboots over the last week or so. Ive not seen any on my S3 with TA.


Do you know if these reboots came immediately after remote control lockups (yellow light blinks but TiVo doesn't respond)?


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## haidawei (Feb 3, 2007)

dlfl said:


> Do you know if these reboots came immediately after remote control lockups (yellow light blinks but TiVo doesn't respond)?


I also have the same reboot problems with my THD. My reboots occur after remote control lockups. This problem started after the latest software update. Not sure if that is the cause or just coincidence. I am using HDMI and an eSATA external drive. I do not have a TA. The reboots also happened when I disconnected the eSATA drive. I have not tried removing the HDMI. I have no known issues with my S3.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

haidawei said:


> I also have the same reboot problems with my THD. My reboots occur after remote control lockups. This problem started after the latest software update. Not sure if that is the cause or just coincidence. I am using HDMI and an eSATA external drive. I do not have a TA. The reboots also happened when I disconnected the eSATA drive. I have not tried removing the HDMI. I have no known issues with my S3.


I got rid of remote-control-lockup type reboots (so far!) by switching from HDMI to component. I've had one spontaneous reboot (not associated with a remote control lockup) since then. I'm tempted to think there are two different types of reboot going on.


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

dlfl said:


> Were you using a TA on your HD? Were your reboots preceded by remote control lockups (yellow light blinks but TiVo doesn't respond), or did they just happen at random times?
> 
> Is your Premiere hookup identical to what you used for the HD?


No TA - Verizon Fios. Both connected via HDMI to the TV and Optical to Audio. Same wires etc. I had both units recording exactly the same things for testing purposes.

The reboots happened on channels that often caused problems. This is what led me to believe the Premiere is more tolerant of bad signal issues.


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## 2001brg149 (Apr 27, 2008)

Let me add my name to the list but with few differences.

I have a plain vanilla TivoHD with no modifications, no external HDD, and connected to TV using a Component cable. It reboots at least once a day without anyone touching the remote. Yesterday, it rebooted twice. The daily reboot followed about an hour later by the non-responsive remote reboot. The double reboots happen about three times per week.

I also have a second TivoHD with a 1TB external HDD also connected to TV using a Component cable. It's located in a different area of the house and hasn't rebooted since June 23rd but that was due to a local power outage. Both THDs are running 11.0g.

Both THDs are always running but the first receives the most remote control activity on a daily basis. This leads me to believe that the problem might be a buffer overflow issue. It's as if the Tivo or the TA can't keep up with a lot of channel surfing and calls for a reboot when it gets overloaded.

Finally, I tried all of the recommendations that everyone has suggested. Unplugging the THD and the TA. Reseating the M-Card. Disconnecting the USB cables. Replacing the USB cable. Replacing the component cable. Putting my shirt on backwards and my shoes on the wrong feet. Standing on one leg while plugging in the equipment. Nothing seems to fix the problem......

Frank


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

2001brg149 said:


> Let me add my name to the list but with few differences.
> 
> I have a plain vanilla TivoHD with no modifications, no external HDD, and connected to TV using a Component cable. It reboots at least once a day without anyone touching the remote. Yesterday, it rebooted twice. The daily reboot followed about an hour later by the non-responsive remote reboot. The double reboots happen about three times per week.
> 
> ...


If you can do it change out the hard drive, may solve your re-boot problem. Semi bad Hard Drives (or dead hard drive) are the cause of about 99% of TiVo problems.


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## 2001brg149 (Apr 27, 2008)

Thanks for the suggestion, Les.

Frank


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

2001brg149 said:


> Let me add my name to the list but with few differences.
> 
> I have a plain vanilla TivoHD with no modifications, no external HDD, and connected to TV using a Component cable. It reboots at least once a day without anyone touching the remote. Yesterday, it rebooted twice. The daily reboot followed about an hour later by the non-responsive remote reboot. The double reboots happen about three times per week.
> 
> ...


He He, you have a good sense of humor. (Probably a good thing too.)

Just curious, how old is the rebooting TiVo and what cable system and region are you in?

You've ruled out a lot of things and the HDD is a good suspect for almost any TiVo problem as Les said. Assuming you don't mind losing all your recordings, you could remove your HDD, backup the TiVo system with WinMFS, then run the mfr's extended tests on the drive to determine definitely whether it is the problem. If it passes the tests, you can restore the WinMFS backup you made and reinstall. If it only has the 250G drive, you could take this opportunity to put in a 1 TB internal drive for less than $100, or go to 1.5T or 2.0T using the various options available. Here is the drive expansion sticky thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370784

This is the bible for internal expansions and probably the best place to post any questions you have on that topic.


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## 2001brg149 (Apr 27, 2008)

Thanks for the reply, dlfl but I think I came up with a solution last night!

About a month ago, I watched the movie, "The Men Who Stare at Goats". Well, I started thinking about the movie last night, and realized that if the power of thought was good enough for the CIA, it should work for me to solve my reboot problems.

So, I sat on my sofa with the remote in my right hand and stared at the TIVO HD all night and, low and behold, it worked!!! The unit didn't reboot itself. Of course, the only problem with this solution is that I didn't see any TV because I was staring at the TIVO.

To fix this new problem, I'm forming a TIVO Community Group called "The Men Who Stare at TIVOs" because you need at least two people to make it work. One to stare at the TIVO and the other to watch the TV. And, with a little more testing, I should be able to figure out who controls the remote. I hope I don't need a third person for the remote or the sofa is going to get awfully crowded.

Anyway, if you're interested in joining, sit in front of your TIVO and think about my UserID. After an hour or so, your headache will start to go away and you'll break-out in a cold sweat. At that point, you'll be a member of "The Men Who Stare at TIVOs" and can start recruiting people for your sofa.

Good Luck and Good Staring.......

Frank

P.S. I'll try working on the hard drive next week to see if it makes a difference. Also, the TIVO is two years old and my cable company is Brighthouse in Florida.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

In my case, it's not the hard drive. Replaced it twice and still rebooting.

So far, the reboots are corresponding with the TW getting it's "new" expiration date for the "sub expires" that's listed in the TA diagnostics.

I was positive this issue was fixed by Cisco a while back, but maybe I was wrong.

Either that or the Tivo software update isn't liking the sub expires time.

But so far, (since keeping my logs), the system reboots around noon time, and every time afterwards, the sub expires time has incremented.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> .........So far, the reboots are corresponding with the TW getting it's "new" expiration date for the "sub expires" that's listed in the TA diagnostics.
> 
> I was positive this issue was fixed by Cisco a while back, but maybe I was wrong.
> 
> ...


Hmmm... My spontaneous reboots (the ones not related to remote control lockup, which I don't have anymore after switching to component video) have not corresponded to TA Sub Expires updates. I get these updates every week now and TiVo reboots aren't happening that often.

What version of TA firmware do you have? Mine is 0.1001.

I do get occasional spontaneous TA reboots which as far as I can see don't have any connection to anything -- the sub expires date does NOT get updated by the TA reboot. The last two of these were 24 May and 23 June, interestingly about a month apart. These TA reboots don't cause any disruption unless you are recording or viewing something when they occur, i.e., if they occur in the wee hours of the morning when you aren't recording an SDV channel, then no harm is done. However one of them occurred in the middle of the day and I lost a recording in progress plus had my Netflix viewing interrupted with the "A Tuning Adapter is connected to your TiVo" screen.


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

The firmware I believe is 1.00_1520_LR_F.1001
The SARA version is: 1.61.41.1

The reboots don't happen when the sub expires, but it seems to coincide to when TW is sending out the "hits" to renew the expiration (you should never really get "less" than 20 days to the expiration). Ie, mine now says, expiration of 8/2/10 So tomorrow it still still show 8/2/10, and about 5-7 days from now, I'll have another reboot and the date will go to say, 8/10/10 or something


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

m_jonis said:


> The firmware I believe is 1.00_1520_LR_F.1001
> The SARA version is: 1.61.41.1
> 
> The reboots don't happen when the sub expires, but it seems to coincide to when TW is sending out the "hits" to renew the expiration (you should never really get "less" than 20 days to the expiration). Ie, mine now says, expiration of 8/2/10 So tomorrow it still still show 8/2/10, and about 5-7 days from now, I'll have another reboot and the date will go to say, 8/10/10 or something


You have the same firmware as my TA has. Hard to imagine how any signal TWC sends to your TA could make your TiVo reboot, even on a delayed basis. But stranger things have happened.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Another spontaneous reboot sometime last night when I wasn't watching. I can tell this has happened because all the TiVo menus reset to the top menu item when you first enter them (instead of remembering the last item you used). If anyone knows that this isn't a good way to detect a reboot has occured please post. I don't want to use the on-screen clock as a reboot detector.

My TA Sub Expires time also was updated last night so that's a suspicious coincidence -- but I've had a number of these updates that didn't trigger reboots.

Between these mysterious reboots, everything is fine -- no pixelation problems and no menu problems. So I can't believe it's a hard drive problem.

Maybe 11.0h will fix it


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

Well ironic that you mention that. Mine's not rebooted since I got 11.0h. Although the annoying "gray screen" when trying to tune an SDV channel is still there (I like when my Tivo records 0 minutes of gray TV channels).


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## flipwils11 (Jan 30, 2011)

Bumping an old thread here, but from the responses it doesn't sound like there was a conclusive resolution to this problem. Our HD XL has started rebooting frequently (3-4 times in 24 hours) and now seems to only come up to the gray screen after the reboot, leaving me to just power it off and on again.

I chatted with their customer support (literally web chat) yesterday and it was the typical remove the power cord, wait 15 seconds, boot up without ethernet connected stab in the dark. Sure enough, 2-3 reboots one during live TV, one during Netflix streaming, and I forget the other occurrence (I think it was overnight).

What gives? Do I return it, or is this a software issue that Tivo needs to issue an update for?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

First thing to suspect in rebooting or video problems is the HDD. How old is it? Do you have an expander drive?

There is no particular bug pertaining to this that TiVo is likely to be fixing.
Try KickStart 54 to look for HDD problems. Do the longest test available, may take several hours.

I started this thread and I agree no particular cause or solution was found. However, I've switched from HDMI to component connections and reboots are few and far between now.

If it is the HDD, there are good internal drive expansion options for 1TB or 2TB at costs ranging from $70 to $180. I've been running with a 1TB drive expansion for 1.4 yrs now.


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## flipwils11 (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks, checking out the kickstart instructions now. However the thing won't even boot up past the initial setup screens. I get the sunrise initial start-up and then sometimes it makes it to the a few moments longer screen, but usually cycles back to initial boot one or two more times before going to the grey screen. After I posted initially to bump this thread I got it to boot up entirely and we watched TV for about 15 minutes before it crashed again.

I'm running component to the TV for the Tivo. It's an HD XL purchased in August 2010 as a refurb from Tivo's site and I have not done any upgrades or mods.

OK, it's at the few minutes more screen now.... crossed fingers that it won't crash again so I can try these kickstart tests...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

The KS instructions assume you already have the TiVo booted up, but I'm pretty sure you can just start during the Welcome screen. Just start with step 7 in the KS54 instructions after you power cycle and see the Welcome screen.


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## flipwils11 (Jan 30, 2011)

So far all passes, it's on the final test now ("offline scan") and probably will finish late tonight after I've gone to bed. Thanks for the tips.

If it passes, then what? Would you recommend I send it back to Tivo and pay their $49 under warranty replacement fee? If the hard drive tests pass then I'm not sure that it makes sense to go get another hard drive and install it myself.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

In your case the TiVo $49 option is probably the best, since you will get 1 TB of HDD in the replacement, and the problem could be something else such as the power supply.


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## flipwils11 (Jan 30, 2011)

Posting an update to my saga. We received a new Tivo HD XL paying the $49 out of pocket and luckily we were on vacation for a week which made the inconvenience slightly more palatable.

We've had our new Tivo for about 2 weeks and it's already rebooting multiple times a day. Now it will almost do it on command when you go to the now playing list. Tivo will only be sending us a new power cord which they think will somehow fix the problem. 

I'm not sure what to do at this point. If the power cord doesn't work some miracle, do I ask them to provide us with a Tivo Premier? The HD XL is still under warranty but this $49 replacement and 2 week cycle needs to stop. Is anyone else having these types of problems? Is there a bad software update that has some sort of bug in it?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Are you using HDMI? If so try component connections if possilbe. HDMI can cause lockups/reboots and I am running component because of reboots I strongly suspect were caused by running HDMI.

If the power cord doesn't do it, see what TiVo suggests next.

Any possibility of momentary power dropouts of your AC? Are you using a UPS?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I use to reboot my TiVo once a week just to head off problems. Then, I upgraded by hard drive and quickly found I no longer needed to do that. Now, I only reboot if I'm having a problem and I can't remember the last time that happened.

Oh, and I'm connected via HDMI. One lesson I learned is not to switch inputs to or from the TiVo HDMI input while the TiVo is booting.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

flipwils11 said:


> I'm not sure what to do at this point. If the power cord doesn't work some miracle, do I ask them to provide us with a Tivo Premier? The HD XL is still under warranty but this $49 replacement and 2 week cycle needs to stop. Is anyone else having these types of problems? Is there a bad software update that has some sort of bug in it?


Have you checked the capacitors on the power supply? Starting a couple of years ago, there was a huge rash of bad electrolytic capacitors (coming out of China, I think) that got stuck into lots and lots of pieces of equipment, including TiVos. According to Omikron, something like 1/3 of the units he is seeing on his bench have bad capacitors. A cap only costs about $.20 ($1.50 from Radio Shack), and replacing one on a single layer board like the power supply on the TiVo is a 2 minute operation. After incandescent bulbs and hard drives, the power supply is always the most likely item to fail on any piece of electronics, and a flaky supply can easily cause lock-ups or reboots. If you are even remotely comfortable with taking the cover off an electronic device, I heartily advise inspecting the caps on your power supply for bulges or cracks. If no, have an electronics savvy friend do it. Anyone handy with a soldering iron can safely replace an axial lead power supply capacitor. (SMDs on high density, multilayer boards are another matter.)


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Have you checked the capacitors on the power supply? Starting a couple of years ago, there was a huge rash of bad electrolytic capacitors (coming out of China, I think) that got stuck into lots and lots of pieces of equipment, including TiVos. According to Omikron, something like 1/3 of the units he is seeing on his bench have bad capacitors. A cap only costs about $.20 ($1.50 from Radio Shack), and replacing one on a single layer board like the power supply on the TiVo is a 2 minute operation. After incandescent bulbs and hard drives, the power supply is always the most likely item to fail on any piece of electronics, and a flaky supply can easily cause lock-ups or reboots. If you are even remotely comfortable with taking the cover off an electronic device, I heartily advise inspecting the caps on your power supply for bulges or cracks. If no, have an electronics savvy friend do it. Anyone handy with a soldering iron can safely replace an axial lead power supply capacitor. (SMDs on high density, multilayer boards are another matter.)


That rash of bad electrolytics (which I call "capacitor disease") started over a decade ago, about the time of BX chipset Pentium II/Celeron motherboards.

The ones that fail are usually Low ESR, high temperature rated capacitors used in the high-frequency switching circuits of power supplies, and a Radio Shack cap isn't likely to be up to spec, even if the working voltage and microFarads are the same.

badcaps.net and LCDalternatives http://lcdalternatives.auctivacommerce.com/default.aspx

offer further reading on the subject and are sources of quality caps, as are mouser.com and digikey.com if you already know what to look for.


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## flipwils11 (Jan 30, 2011)

Update: We received the new power supply from Tivo and the Tivo plush doll along with it, which I guess is their attempt to buy off our animosity right now.

Well, Tivo crashed during the evening news with the new power supply so there goes that idea. I'm guessing the power supply is in response to the bad capacitor problem?

Then tonight during one of our shows it crashed and we missed 10 minutes of recording. As if that weren't bad enough, while watching the recorded show (what little it got of it) the damn thing crashes again.

I know that this forum is predicated on folks who are very into modifying, tweaking, and troubleshooting their Tivo. A few years ago this would have been me as I wired my entire house a few years ago (pre-Wifi) with Cat5 to have ethernet in all rooms, I'm a former developer and a Comp Sci undergrad so I know my way around computers with both hardware and software, and I am an avid car enthusiast who has rebuilt the engine in his vintage car. But you know what, when the first and then the second kid arrives, all that goes out the window I've found. I come home from a long day and I just want ***** to work. Like Tivo. I just want to watch TV get the kids in bed, watch maybe one more show, and go to bed myself. And I can't even do that.

We are calling Tivo and ask that we try one last ditch effort and that they give us free of charge a Tivo Premier because hopefully the latest and greatest hardware does not have this problem. If not, they can kiss their service agreement and us as customers good-bye.

I'm sorry for the rant, but when the hardware is under warranty and they want to use us as a field test for some beta hardware and software troubleshooting, this makes me feel less like a valued customer and more like a guinea pig.

Oh yeah, while I was typing this after it rebooted, we went to the list to try to continue our program and the piece of crap crashed again.


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## flipwils11 (Jan 30, 2011)

Update, 2 more crashes while on hold with Tivo. They asked us to do a hard reboot and remove all cables other than the power cord and component video from the Tivo (we are using component btw, not hdmi). It rebooted and came back up and I was able to go into the Tivo settings list and it crashed again. 

So now we know it crashes without any ethernet connected or the over the air antenna coax connected (that's what I'm using, over the air HD antenna). Also I have my equipment in a cabinet and Tivo thought there was an overheating issue so it is now out on top of the cabinet in open air and it still crashes.

What wondrous new troubleshooting idea will Tivo come up with next? Should I go buy a rubber chicken and wave it over the thing? Oh, and this is amusing, while my wife was on the phone with Tivo technical support the guy was helping us and on the phone and all of the sudden said "I'm sorry maam, they're telling us we have to get out of here because it smells like burning" and he hung up the phone. LOL! This can't be serious. Am I on candid camera? Is someone sending us empty Tivo boxes with MS Windows 95 PC's inside masquerading as a Tivo?


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## m_jonis (Jan 3, 2002)

I feel your pain. Let's see, bought a new TivoHD, it kept rebooting. Tivo tech told me it was:
a) not enough power through the outlet (funny, my other THREE TivoHD work fine on same outlet when I tried them one at a time)
b) cable signal was "too strong". They don't like to see 100% signal strength, but supposedly TivoHD like to see 70% signal strength (BS, if I don't get at least 90%, several of my HD channels won't come in at all)
c) Must be that ethernet cable.

I finally complained enough and they shipped me a refurb unit. Refurb reboots itself immediately after getting the "almost there" screen.

I gave up, bought a NEW unit and it's worked fine (as are my other 3 TivoHD). 

But now I gotta call and get the replacement replaced (ought to be fun) and go through the whole thing all over again.

I wouldn't be surprised if they (Tivo) sent you a refurb unit and it's got a problem.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Sorry if I missed it, but have you guys ruled out powerline fluctuations?


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## flipwils11 (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for the responses. I am not sure how to rule out power line fluctuations, but other devices including our Blu-ray, TV, and receiver are plugged in in the same area and none have ever had a problem.

Got to thinking more about the "we need to leave the building" comment last night from the service rep. It was 8:56 when my wife got through the queue and they closed at 9. When the call to evacuate came, it was about 5 after so my cynical guess is they didn't want to deal with our call so they made up a (crack-pot) excuse to get off the phone. Nice.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

flipwils11 said:


> ........I am not sure how to rule out power line fluctuations, but other devices including our Blu-ray, TV, and receiver are plugged in in the same area and none have ever had a problem.........


The only completely certain way to rule out power fluctuations is to put your TiVo and TA on a UPS, which is highly recommended in general, since it prevents a momentary power loss from causing a TiVo reboot. The smallest APC Back UPS model that sells for about $50 will do fine for those two items.

The other devices not having problems is fairly strong evidence but devices differ in their ability to survive power drop outs.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

2001brg149 said:


> Both THDs are always running but the first receives the most remote control activity on a daily basis. This leads me to believe that the problem might be a buffer overflow issue. It's as if the Tivo or the TA can't keep up with a lot of channel surfing and calls for a reboot when it gets overloaded.


I have two THDs as well - one in the main room with lots of activity and is fine -- the other is upstairs in bedroom with far less activity and had some gray screen issues and still needs a reboot every now and then. I think it is just some boxes have QA issues. We would need a lot of data here to track it down to production runs and so forth but my speculation is certain production runs just had issues.

PS - the one in the bedroom I recieved from bonus points at work. Likely it is a refurb.


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## cmn (Jan 6, 2011)

I've had the same probably recently with the unit constantly rebooting. They told me the same story about the signal being too strong at 100%. I added attenuators to reduce the signal strength. I noticed on my Premiere units, the signal strength dropped to 93%, but the TivoHD responded strangely. Without the cable card, it registered a similar signal strength, but with the cable card inserted, the signal strength jumped to 100%. I'm not sure if this is a bug with the unit.

Anyways, after calling Tivo over a three day period complaining about the reboots, they agreed to let me buy a Tivo Premiere for $299 and transfer the lifetime subscription. The unit was still covered under the 1 year warranty, but beyond the initial 90 days. I'm not crying since I picked up this unit at BlockBuster when they were clearing out the units for $99.

Of course after I complete the transaction, I tried one final reboot and the Tivo decides it wants to run through the Guided Setup. I complete the process and guess what, the unit stopped rebooting. It has been running 3 days without a reboot.

The Tivo Premiere is scheduled to arrive today, but now I'm having second thoughts about setting it up.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

cmn said:


> The Tivo Premiere is scheduled to arrive today, but now I'm having second thoughts about setting it up.


I feel your pain. I got a refurb Premiere through the $70 woot deal but I haven't subscribed it yet. Maybe when it becomes "fully functional". 

However you have a lifetime transfer deal in play. Is there a time limit on the transfer deal?


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## flipwils11 (Jan 30, 2011)

Update: The Tivo hasn't rebooted now in over 24 hours but Tivo is sending us another refurbed HD to try out. 

Thanks for all the comments and understanding. Strangely they never asked us about the signal strength but I can verify that on my own and see what numbers we're getting.


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