# Tivo moves further into irrelavants



## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

Hey Tivo did you notice this ? htpc becomes a more attractive option now.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/02/hdhomerun-prime-tv-tuner-passes-cablelabs-tests-available-for-p/



> According to a post on its forum, SiliconDust confirmed the HDHomeRun Prime has been certified and an email announcement will follow shortly, however it expects to deliver a 6-tuner Theater version first with the three tuner box appearing afterwards. The post also notes sites are "incorrectly listing" the HDHomeRun Prime for preorder and "will not be first in line for delivering product" so you may want to wait for the official word on which "major retailer" has the go-ahead to make sure you're first in line. The option to preorder disappeared from Amazon this morning, we'll let you know when and where the option to purchase pops up next. [Thanks, robniep]


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Except the future of Microsoft Media Center Edition remains dubious at this point, not to mention the oft mentioned problem of lack of any new extender solutions.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Third party DVRs have become a niche product due to the failure of cable cards. Until cable cards are replaced with something that: 

Works well for both cable and satellite,
Is very easy for the consumer to setup and use (plug the cable in type easy), and
Does not increase their cable or satellite bill
nothing is going to change. Just not enough people willing to deal with all the costs and/or issues. For most it is way to easy and some times way to cheap (when DVRs are used as loss leaders) to use their providers DVR.

Thanks,


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I wouldn't call CableCARDS a failure. They're used in most current cable boxes...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

the thread is irrelevant but a company would slip further into irrelevance, not irrelevants.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> I wouldn't call CableCARDS a failure. They're used in most current cable boxes...


The purpose fo cablecards wasn't to make cable company boxes work - they do not need them, the only reason they use them is because it is required by law.

The purposes of cable cards was to give consumers access to third party devices that could be used with any cable and satellite provider.

The first failure was when satellite providers got a "temporary" waiver.

The second failure was costs associated with development and cable labs certification

The third failure was when cable companies were allowed to charge what ever they felt like charging including truck roles, outlet fees, rent fees. ect.

The forth failure was when cable companies were allowed to provide more service (and access to more channels) through their own boxes than what third party boxes would have access to.

Basically cable cards are nearly a complete failure as they were to benefit consumers and have effectively benefited the cable companies.

Thanks,


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## dtremit (Mar 17, 2002)

moyekj said:


> Except the future of Microsoft Media Center Edition remains dubious at this point, not to mention the oft mentioned problem of lack of any new extender solutions.


Nothing in life is guaranteed, but Win8 isn't even going to be released until sometime next year. Even if they follow the short support cycle they have for Vista (unlikely), they will likely be offering security updates for Win7MCE until at least 2019. And most signs point to Win8MCE being more or less identical to Win7MCE.

Given TiVo doesn't have extenders, I'm not sure how the lack of selection is a hit against Windows, but YMMV of course.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

As I remember it in many press accounts, satellite was purposely left out of the Cable Card specification and both Dish and DirecTV wrote letters, partly published along with quoted objections from satellite PR, to Congress complaining of how the Cable Cos kept them out of the latest Cable Card when it was being developed. Satellite was left at the gas station by the cable cos on Cable Card, and satellite must now be thinking how lucky they were that they got locked out in the cold, well, not so cold, after all. This is in regards to the latest version of Cable Card.

Furthermore, unlike the CableLabs specification that is used all over the country at all cable TV companies, satellite's lack of standardization makes developing a product to work with both Dish and DirecTV too expensive. Cable is where any DVR maker hopes to get the most return, not to mention having to keep up with far more innovation with DirecTV and Dish than ANY of the cable cos.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Apparently Silicon Dust can't even be bothered to keep the documentation for their older products available online as a courtesy to past customers and others, so why risk their current products being orphaned?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Series3Sub said:


> As I remember it in many press accounts, satellite was purposely left out of the Cable Card specification and both Dish and DirecTV wrote letters, partly published along with quoted objections from satellite PR, to Congress complaining of how the Cable Cos kept them out of the latest Cable Card when it was being developed. Satellite was left at the gas station by the cable cos on Cable Card, and satellite must now be thinking how lucky they were that they got locked out in the cold, well, not so cold, after all. This is in regards to the latest version of Cable Card.


that revision of history was quite amusing to read.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> that revision of history was quite amusing to read.


Yeah, nonsense. Satellite fought hard to be left out of cable card rules. Since then they've argued to maintain that exclusion in part based on the fact that Cable controls that standard.

It appears that they've accepted that they'll be included in any Allvid rules, though.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

nrc said:


> Yeah, nonsense. Satellite fought hard to be left out of cable card rules. Since then they've argued to maintain that exclusion in part based on the fact that Cable controls that standard.
> 
> It appears that they've accepted that they'll be included in any Allvid rules, though.


I don't think Allvid can get here soon enough. Though if cable cards adoption is any indication, it will be problematic for third party boxes and will take forever to arrive to a standard.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

It seems like the cable cards were successful for the cable companies. Tivo lost over 2 million subscriptions of which the cable companies probably picked up a large percentage. The cable companies were charging a lot of money for a truck roll to install the cable card.


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## MrSkippy53 (Jan 27, 2011)

shwru980r said:


> It seems like the cable cards were successful for the cable companies. Tivo lost over 2 million subscriptions of which the cable companies probably picked up a large percentage. The cable companies were charging a lot of money for a truck roll to install the cable card.


I don't believe TiVo lost 2 million subs because of cable cards. I don't see cable cards as a big issue. I think I would rather have a TiVo with CC inside than a TiVo and a Cable box and IR blaster. And the truck roll cost to install the CC was the same they charge to come out and install cable Internet or their DVR. And not to long from now they will have to offer CC self installs


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> Basically cable cards are *nearly a complete failure* as they were to benefit consumers and have effectively benefited the cable companies.


I have multiple CableCARDs in the house. But you're exactly correct, they're "nearly a complete failure". It's simple cognitive dissonance that keeps some people from understanding the "big picture" reality.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

nrc said:


> Yeah, nonsense. Satellite fought hard to be left out of cable card rules. Since then they've argued to maintain that exclusion in part based on the fact that Cable controls that standard.
> 
> It appears that they've accepted that they'll be included in any Allvid rules, though.


I think they have but only slightly. I think they are going along with the idea but are now like most companies arguing over the details if you look at the filings from dish and directv.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Where exactly is "irrelavants"? Can we visit Tivo there?

heh heh heh.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

mattack said:


> Where exactly is "irrelavants"? Can we visit Tivo there?
> 
> heh heh heh.


While in Africa once I shot an irrelavants in my pajamas.

What he was doing in my pajamas I'll never know.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

WMC is going to win over some geeks, but other than it isn't going to do anything. 

It's not wife- proof.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> WMC is going to win over some geeks, but other than it isn't going to do anything.
> 
> It's not wife- proof.


I know some wives that would disagree with you.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

unitron said:


> While in Africa once I shot an irrelavants in my pajamas.
> 
> What he was doing in my pajamas I'll never know.


Then we tried to remove the tusks. The tusks. That's not so easy to say. Tusks.

You try it some time. As I say, we tried to remove the tusks. But they were embedded so firmly we couldn't budge them.

Of course, in Alabama the Tuscaloosa, but that is entirely ir-elephant to what I was talking about.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

MrSkippy53 said:


> I don't believe TiVo lost 2 million subs because of cable cards. I don't see cable cards as a big issue.


It was a significant issue for me when I upgrade to series 3/HD. I put it off for the longest time. It was an issue when I bought my second THD. It was an issue when I purchased my Premiere and my second Premiere.

In short, my last 4 tivo purchases have been impacted by the hassle associated with the cablecards. While it's true that in each case I did eventually upgrade, it did lead to a significant delay in my purchase, and I only did so because I'm a gadget-nut. If I was advising a relative or friend was wasn't as tech-savvy as I am, I'd have advised them to avoid Tivo and go with the cableco DVRs. I hate to put it that way, but it's the truth.

The mistake with the cablecards was the pairing, which is what causes all the trouble. I can't think of any compelling reason why these cards should be linked to the appliance. I ought to be able to pop it out of one Tivo and put it into another. Furthermore, I ought to be able to pop it out of a cableco box and install it into a Tivo.

Pairing the cable card to my Tivo is fundamentally the same as pairing a cable modem to my computer. Why do we tolerate the former but not the latter? Who in their right mind would think it reasonable to require a truck roll everytime you buy a new PC?


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

So here is what I thought I knew....

Cable = Cable
Satellite = Satellite
Cable != Satellite

Q.E.D. Satellite has nothing to do with cable cards and visa-versa.

Please tell me what I don't know.


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

So here is what I thought I knew....

Cable = Cable
Satellite = Satellite
Cable != Satellite

Q.E.D. Satellite has nothing to do with cable cards and visa-versa.

Please tell me what I don't know.


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## socrplyr (Jul 19, 2006)

jtreid said:


> So here is what I thought I knew....
> 
> Cable = Cable
> Satellite = Satellite
> ...


Satellite was supposed to use what became CableCard as well (maybe it wouldn't have been called CableCard in the end as that is a marketing term). Interestingly did/doesn't directv use access cards? Which would have just been replaced with the CableCard model... and a bit of rework...


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

MrSkippy53 said:


> I don't believe TiVo lost 2 million subs because of cable cards.


A major part of the loss was DirecTV TiVo users who had no TiVo upgrade path.


MrSkippy53 said:


> I don't see cable cards as a big issue. I think I would rather have a TiVo with CC inside than a TiVo and a Cable box and IR blaster. And the truck roll cost to install the CC was the same they charge to come out and install cable Internet or their DVR. And not to long from now they will have to offer CC self installs


Neither CableCARDs nor the installation cost ($20) have been major issues for me -- but Tuning Adapter problems have more than made up for that. And I know many other users have had major CC issues. I have to believe that CC and TA issues are the primary reasons TiVo subscriptions are way down from what they could be. The user experience when either device has a problem is horrible. Neither TiVo nor the Cable Co. can or will give good diagnosis and support. The user is left holding the bag -- probably more likely to get a problem resolved on this forum.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the thread is irrelevant but a company would slip further into irrelevance, not irrelevants.


But it did make me giggle on a number of levels.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

unitron said:


> Apparently Silicon Dust can't even be bothered to keep the documentation for their older products available online as a courtesy to past customers and others, so why risk their current products being orphaned?


Yea mean like the Premiere has been and its even a current product!

Missing Hulu Plus - Check
Unfinished HD UI - Check
Bugs - Check
Lack of updates - Check

Yep.. lost of differences there.......


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MrSkippy53 said:


> I don't believe TiVo lost 2 million subs because of cable cards.


I could see a million, easy. 
That will be 40$ for the truck roll, and 4$ for each card per month. sorry only single cards you will have to have 2 -- oh and the 40$ is per card.
Now I can make a deal on having them install our DVR..........

all bogus and skirting the wrong side of the FCC rules but many people were told the equivalent of that, assuming the CSR would even say they knew what a cable card was.

the early days were quite bad.

then a million from DirectTV.
and some number of folks who simply got tired of TiVo and its apathy toward updating the models that are out


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> .....the early days were quite bad......


While the current and recent days have been just "bad".


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dlfl said:


> While the current and recent days have been just "bad".


some folks get handed a cable card and they go home install it, read the screen to person after calling provided number and watch it all start working --- that is good.

some folks get handed a card and then told a tech has to call
some folks have a tech come out, messes around till they show him the sheet with the steps, some techs follow the steps, some do not -- almost good

some techs come back multiple times and just stumble around -- bad


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## rlcarr (Jan 18, 2003)

smbaker said:


> The mistake with the cablecards was the pairing, which is what causes all the trouble. I can't think of any compelling reason why these cards should be linked to the appliance.


Three letters -- D.R.M. That way there is control over what the card is connected to when the CCI byte is non-zero.

Note that when the CCI byte is zero, pairing is *not* intrinsically required. For example, RCN doesn't/didn't require cards to be paired. You could pop them in and out of different TiVos with no problem. The catch is you can't receive anything with a non-zero CCI byte (and on RCN the only channels with non-zero CCI bytes are the premium/PPV channels). However, just to be difficult, many cablecos require pairing to have the card work at all. They don't have to do that, but they do anyways.


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## TooMuchTime (Jun 29, 2008)

I think I've just experienced my first Cable Card problem! I get Turner Classic Movies (HD and SD) just fine on my Series 3 TiVo (1 dual card), but TCM HD does not show on my Premier (1 dual card). TCM SD does show on the Premier. _Hmmm!_

Comcast gave me some run-around when I called earlier, but I forgot to check the Series 3 before I called. Looks like a service call to Comcast for a new CC!

Thanks for making me think!


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

socrplyr said:


> Satellite was supposed to use what became CableCard as well (maybe it wouldn't have been called CableCard in the end as that is a marketing term). Interestingly did/doesn't directv use access cards? Which would have just been replaced with the CableCard model... and a bit of rework...


Unfortunately, satellite (e.g. the mini-satellite systems like Dish & DirecTV) has a *waiver* from the cablecard mandate. They would be required to follow it too, if they didn't have the waiver.

Thus, in theory you would be able to buy one box that did OTA, cable, and satellite, and just plugged in the appropriate card for (digital) cable or satellite.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

MrSkippy53 said:


> I don't believe TiVo lost 2 million subs because of cable cards. I don't see cable cards as a big issue. I think I would rather have a TiVo with CC inside than a TiVo and a Cable box and IR blaster. And the truck roll cost to install the CC was the same they charge to come out and install cable Internet or their DVR. And not to long from now they will have to offer CC self installs


Yeah but wouldn't they potentially wave fees to install their own equipment, especially if it leads to more revenue for them? With a CC install for a third-party device there is zero incentive to ever waive any kind of install fee.


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## jseeley (Mar 29, 2011)

marksman said:


> Yeah but wouldn't they potentially wave fees to install their own equipment, especially if it leads to more revenue for them? With a CC install for a third-party device there is zero incentive to ever waive any kind of install fee.


I currently have time warner internet only and they call me EVERY month asking if I would like to add tv service to my internet. However they refuse to waive the truck roll fee to install a cable card. They will also not give me a cable card at the local service center (been there several times to ask for one). There is nothing for a tech to do at my house, everything is wired already (I had cable tv service previously a few years back)

I only want a cable card (and basic cable) to get like like 2 channels... I refuse to pay $40 to have someone place a card in the back of my tivo. Going to try an wait until the new FCC rules kick in and they are required by law to give me a card for self install.


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## jseeley (Mar 29, 2011)

marksman said:


> Yeah but wouldn't they potentially wave fees to install their own equipment, especially if it leads to more revenue for them? With a CC install for a third-party device there is zero incentive to ever waive any kind of install fee.


I currently have time warner internet only and they call me EVERY month asking if I would like to add tv service to my internet. However they refuse to waive the truck roll fee to install a cable card. They will also not give me a cable card at the local service center (been there several times to ask for one). There is nothing for a tech to do at my house, everything is wired already (I had cable tv service previously a few years back)

I only want a cable card (and basic cable) to get like 2 channels... I refuse to pay $40 to have someone place a card in the back of my tivo. Going to try an wait until the new FCC rules kick in and they are required by law to give me a card for self install.


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## anotherlab (Jun 23, 2005)

MrSkippy53 said:


> I don't believe TiVo lost 2 million subs because of cable cards. I don't see cable cards as a big issue.


When Time Warner Cable first rolled out Switched Digital Video (SDV), it was months before the Tuning Adapters (TA) were available. Even after getting the TA, it was buggy and needed a monthly reset to stay connected with the mothership. And don't get me started on the CCI byte...

I switched to FiOS TV last month, and it's much better with cable cards. No SDV, so the TA is not needed. They don't set the CCI byte for the channels (except for PPV and the premium movie channels). And they are much better at getting cable cards installed. I rebuilt my TiVo this week and I needed to have the cable card repaired. Verizon did it over Twitter in about 5 minutes at 1am.

I wouldn't say that cable cards being the primary reason for subscription losses, but I bet the switch to SDV caused a lot of people to cancel TiVo and just use the cable company DVR.

What is killing the TiVo subscriptions is the simple fact that the cable companies have DVRs that are good enough for most people. The TWC DVR is godawful, but the multiroom DVR that I have with FiOS is pretty close to the level of service I get with my TiVo HD. When I switched from TWC to FiOS, I cancelled 2 of my 3 TiVo subscriptions. They were ancient Series 2 boxes, but the single FiOS DVR was better and cheaper than the two Series 2 boxes.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I'm guessing you have Verizon FIOS (rather than Frontier), correct?


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## anotherlab (Jun 23, 2005)

dlfl said:


> I'm guessing you have Verizon FIOS (rather than Frontier), correct?


Verizon FiOS. I'm guessing that Frontier is degrading the FiOS experience.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

anotherlab said:


> Verizon FiOS. I'm guessing that Frontier is degrading the FiOS experience.


Very safe guess.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Videodrome said:


> Hey Tivo did you notice this ? htpc becomes a more attractive option now.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/02/hdhomerun-prime-tv-tuner-passes-cablelabs-tests-available-for-p/


I have been to Irrelavants, KS.

Tivo is not there so I don't think they could move further into there. 

I just went through this whole "Tivo vs. HTPC" thing and elected to stay with Tivo. It is just too much of a learning curve for most of my family (actually all of them but me).

HTPC will corner the market if/when the whole process is literally plug and play, IMHO.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

larrs said:


> I have been to Irrelavants, KS.
> 
> Tivo is not there so I don't think they could move further into there.
> 
> ...


Well if the edit feature allowed you to change the title, it would be helpful. Its great to grandstand. MS just bought Skype. I wonder what a box with mediacenter ,and skype would go for? I am sure MS is just waitng for the right time to pounce.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Videodrome said:


> Well if the edit feature allowed you to change the title, it would be helpful. Its great to grandstand. MS just bought Skype. I wonder what a box with mediacenter ,and skype would go for? I am sure MS is just waitng for the right time to pounce.


I suspect that MS is just waitng to pounce as well, however, what you lack in spelling ability you make up for with insight.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

larrs said:


> HTPC will corner the market if/when the whole process is literally plug and play, IMHO.


I don't think so, at least not with the current Windows-based offerings. Specifically because it will never be 'literally plug and play', IMO.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Media Center is very much plug and play. This is why I am curious to see the embedded boxes that are supposed to start rolling out by the holidays.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

unitron said:


> I suspect that MS is just waitng to pounce as well, however, what you lack in spelling ability you make up for with insight.


along with Apple, Roku, boxee and so on. The reason Steve Jobs said the DVR market was not one he would enter is because the broadcaster has control of the access to desirable content

NYT - 2008


Steve Jobs said:


> The message now is that when it comes to television, the solution is all about movies. That can be seen in the movie icons that now fill the screen of the Apple TV display, allowing viewers to choose and rent titles to download.
> 
> The model will not extend to cable television, he insisted. Were not going to go there with the cable cards, he said, referring to the relatively open cable industry connectors that are gradually allowing companies like TiVo to replace the standard set-top box. That whole industry, their go-to-market strategy is pretty loopy, and its fractured, he said. Our model is like DVD.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

innocentfreak said:


> Media Center is very much plug and play. This is why I am curious to see the embedded boxes that are supposed to start rolling out by the holidays.


TVs as well. Media center is suppose surpass as others in a few years.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

unitron said:


> I suspect that MS is just waitng to pounce as well, however, what you lack in spelling ability you make up for with insight.


Well you lack politeness and reality based thoughts , fact is you cant change a title. So anyone who makes an issue of it, is just being moronic. btw "waiting" was spelled wrong. I wont make an issue of it..


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> ...fact is you cant change a title...


See: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=466607


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> Media Center is very much plug and play. This is why I am curious to see the embedded boxes that are supposed to start rolling out by the holidays.


Media Center is plug and play, but not all the other things required to make it replace a Tivo (Tuner Cards, Cable Cards, etc.) are. That is what I meant.

Not to mention all of the "Daddy, I just got home from school and there are no channels on the TV, I can't watch Disney" calls one would get because Media Center is a part of Windows. I am talking about updates, reboots, lock ups, etc. that are usually not caused by Media Center but by Windows. Ultimately, that is what caused me to stay with Tivo. I love my HTPC, but it does reboot from updates, and hangs once in a while. One missed episode of an important daughter or spouse show and I would be toast- no matter the savings.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

Videodrome said:


> Well if the edit feature allowed you to change the title, it would be helpful. Its great to grandstand. MS just bought Skype. I wonder what a box with mediacenter ,and skype would go for? I am sure MS is just waitng for the right time to pounce.


Hey, it's a joke. The fact that I disagree with you has nothing to do with spelling, it's just funny.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> Well you lack politeness and reality based thoughts ,.


well sure look at his avatar


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

larrs said:


> I have been to Irrelavants, KS.
> ..........
> ......


Really? Google search and Google maps never heard of it.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Videodrome said:


> Well you lack politeness and reality based thoughts , fact is you cant change a title. So anyone who makes an issue of it, is just being moronic. btw "waiting" was spelled wrong. I wont make an issue of it..


I was actually complimenting you (on your insight with regard to Microsoft), along with a little gentle teasing, based on your having included another spelling error in your post lamenting the inability to edit the title to fix the spelling. If you go back and look, you'll see that I didn't misspell "waiting", I did a copy and paste of your misspelling of it.

Humor is subjective, and tone of voice doesn't always (or even often) survive the transistion from the voice in one's head to the printed word, so I can see how you could have taken my post in a way in which it wasn't meant.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

dlfl said:


> Really? Google search and Google maps never heard of it.


Made you look. Ha!


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well sure look at his avatar


Speaking of which, what is your new avatar? Is that a face? A map of Mississippi flooding? A Rorschach test? I was getting to like the previous donkey head.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> Media Center is very much plug and play. This is why I am curious to see the embedded boxes that are supposed to start rolling out by the holidays.


You're insane if you believe that it is *for the average user.* Cablecard and Windows updates that bork a system make it not so, and oh by the way you do have to crack the case to install a Ceton card, right?

An embedded box is not an HTPC.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

larrs said:


> Hey, it's a joke. The fact that I disagree with you has nothing to do with spelling, it's just funny.


Well this board is full of spelling nazis. Sorry my mistake. There is hope for this board then!


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

unitron said:


> I was actually complimenting you (on your insight with regard to Microsoft), along with a little gentle teasing, based on your having included another spelling error in your post lamenting the inability to edit the title to fix the spelling. If you go back and look, you'll see that I didn't misspell "waiting", I did a copy and paste of your misspelling of it.
> 
> Humor is subjective, and tone of voice doesn't always (or even often) survive the transistion from the voice in one's head to the printed word, so I can see how you could have taken my post in a way in which it wasn't meant.


Its cool, but people on here are really way too uptight about things like spelling, and are totally fine with incoherent thoughts.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dlfl said:


> I was getting to like the previous donkey head.


Christmas is over now, I had to move on.

new one is cat in the Hat


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> You're insane if you believe that it is *for the average user.* Cablecard and Windows updates that bork a system make it not so, and oh by the way you do have to crack the case to install a Ceton card, right?
> 
> An embedded box is not an HTPC.


I never said HTPC. I said Media Center. Some would argue with you depending on the functionality.

Yes you have to crack the case just like you do when you add another hard drive, upgrade memory, replace the soundcard/videocard, many of which are things average users do.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well sure look at his avatar


Avatar? What avatar? I don't have an avatar.

Well, not yet anyway.

If people keep taking shots at me, maybe it should be a bulls-eye.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

innocentfreak said:


> I never said HTPC. I said Media Center. Some would argue with you depending on the functionality.
> 
> Yes you have to crack the case just like you do when you add another hard drive, upgrade memory, replace the soundcard/videocard, many of which are things average users do.


There are ready to purchase HTPCs, all you need to do is get the cablecard installed. Dell Zino, Puget computers has a few .


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

unitron said:


> Avatar? What avatar? I don't have an avatar.
> 
> Well, not yet anyway.
> 
> If people keep taking shots at me, maybe it should be a bulls-eye.


Larrs' avatar. You were never in the target path


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Larrs' avatar. You were never in the target path


Take another look. You quoted videodrome's reply to me.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Videodrome said:


> There are ready to purchase HTPCs, all you need to do is get the cablecard installed. Dell Zino, Puget computers has a few .


Still have to open the case and install the Ceton card until the SD Prime comes out. The average user doesn't want to fool with this, and it's not plug and play simply because of Cablecard.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

unitron said:


> Take another look. You quoted videodrome's reply to me.


ah. ok then, I never intended you to be a target. larrs Belushi avatar is what I was poking fun at.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ah. ok then, I never intended you to be a target. larrs Belushi avatar is what I was poking fun at.


So we're agreed that it's all videodrome's fault?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ........ larrs Belushi avatar is what I was poking fun at.


Oh, that's Belushi (,John)! I thought it was larrs.  It doesn't seem chubby-cheeked enough to be JB. And Animal House was in color -- the avatar is B&W.

Don't know if TiVo is moving into irrelavants but I think this thread has arrived there!


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

unitron said:


> So we're agreed that it's all videodrome's fault?


Uni , your just caught in the crossfire. Oh well. Hang in there


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> Still have to open the case and install the Ceton card until the SD Prime comes out. The average user doesn't want to fool with this, and it's not plug and play simply because of Cablecard.


http://www.s1digital.com/

http://okoromedia.com/

both have external access to cablecard, no need to open them.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Videodrome said:


> slowbiscuit said:
> 
> 
> > Still have to open the case and install the Ceton card until the SD Prime comes out. The average user doesn't want to fool with this, and it's not plug and play simply because of Cablecard.
> ...


Ceton Card:









CableCARD:


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Series3Sub said:


> As I remember it in many press accounts, satellite was purposely left out of the Cable Card specification and both Dish and DirecTV wrote letters, partly published along with quoted objections from satellite PR, to Congress complaining of how the Cable Cos kept them out of the latest Cable Card when it was being developed. Satellite was left at the gas station by the cable cos on Cable Card, and satellite must now be thinking how lucky they were that they got locked out in the cold, well, not so cold, after all. This is in regards to the latest version of Cable Card.
> 
> Furthermore, unlike the CableLabs specification that is used all over the country at all cable TV companies, satellite's lack of standardization makes developing a product to work with both Dish and DirecTV too expensive. Cable is where any DVR maker hopes to get the most return, not to mention having to keep up with far more innovation with DirecTV and Dish than ANY of the cable cos.





ZeoTiVo said:


> that revision of history was quite amusing to read.


actually it's SORT OF got some reality in there. (all if i recall correctly- but i think i'm pretty close....)

First DBS and DISH got their waiver because, again if I recall correctly: 1) the were new and needed to save costs to become real competition to cable, 2) they had choices of boxes that you could get at retail 3) and you could buy one of said boxes and use it anywhere in the US that you had line of sight.

Currently all 3 are bunk I think (certainly 1 is not the case, 2 is no longer as there aren't choices, and 3- not sure you can even BUY a box can you now?)

anyway after successfully getting an exemption Directv at least (unsure of DISH) did in fact publicly complain in writing that cablelabs should not be the one developing the standard. They along with many CE manufacturers that ANSI or some other standards organization unrelated to cable should create the standard. Directv argued that letting cable do it would lock them out. (funny how first they argued it was a hardship to get an exemption then out the other side of their mouth they argued it was a great opportunity they didn't want to miss). It wasn't lost on Directv that if every new TV came with a cablecard slot that only worked with cable, that it would be a huge advantage to cable- every new tv would be 'cable ready' all over again and DBS would be the only one with a box. Luckily for DBS, cable was too stupid to take advantage of that possibility.

Anyway the FCC essentially said- yeah those were valid points, but they were going to trust cablelabs not to be scumbags since cablelabs was so far in development and the FCC commisioners where all apparently stoned and thought the country would be buying tv's with cablecards lots withing 2 years. Oh and I think between tokes they said "and dont worry we will watch cable like a hawk and if they do anything evil with cablecards we will throw the book at them."

I'm too lazy to go digging in the FCC database for the documents but I'm pretty sure my recollection is in the right direction.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> ... It wasn't lost on Directv that if every new TV came with a cablecard slot that only worked with cable, that it would be a huge advantage to cable- every new tv would be 'cable ready' all over again and DBS would be the only one with a box. Luckily for DBS, cable was too stupid to take advantage of that possibility...


Are you kidding? Cable hates "cable-ready" anything, 'cause it costs them the opportunity to make you rent something from them in order to be able to get what you're already paying them for.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

unitron said:


> Are you kidding? Cable hates "cable-ready" anything, 'cause it costs them the opportunity to make you rent something from them in order to be able to get what you're already paying them for.


I'm sure Cable would love to not have to buy boxes to rent out. The reason Cable hated "cable-ready" back in the analog days was that there was no way to make customers pay per TV. Now that everything is digital, that's not an issue (e.g. digital outlet fees).


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> Ceton Card:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and your point was ? The cablecards trays are external to the machine, exactly the same as Tivo..


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

No one except you was talking about a way overpriced custom HTPC from S1 or someone else, we were talking about something that compares on an apples-to-apples basis with a Tivo.

Which means you have to open the case and install a Ceton card right now, of course. If I wanted to overpay I could have someone install and configure the system to make it 'plug and play', but that completely misses the point.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> No one except you was talking about a way overpriced custom HTPC from S1 or someone else, we were talking about something that compares on an apples-to-apples basis with a Tivo.
> 
> Which means you have to open the case and install a Ceton card right now, of course. If I wanted to overpay I could have someone install and configure the system to make it 'plug and play', but that completely misses the point.


There are USB tuners, which you just plug in.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Larrs' avatar. You were never in the target path


And it was probably an appropriate comment. I resemble that remark.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Videodrome said:


> There are USB tuners, which you just plug in.


C'mon man, we're talking Cablecard here, not some OTA/QAM tuner that gets a handful of channels in the clear.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> C'mon man, we're talking Cablecard here, not some OTA/QAM tuner that gets a handful of channels in the clear.


http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/08/infinitv-4-usb-cablecard-tuner-hands-on/


> We ran into the Hammers from Ceton Corp at CES and they revealed their latest products to us; the* InfiniTV 4 USB* and the internal InfiniTV 6. The InfiniTV 6 is basically the six tuner version of the InfiniTV 4 that we like so much, what we don't like is that there's no mention of price or availability -- we'd guess $500 or $600 and sometime during the middle of 2011. The more interesting revelation was that of the InfiniTV 4 *USB,* which you see pictured above. It also doesn't have a price yet, but it does record four HD shows at once like its internal brother, has a real nice feel to it, and looks really, really cool. We were curious to know how many of the InifniTV 4's have been sold to Windows Media Center users, and while exact figures weren't forthcoming, we were told "thousands and thousands." At this point Ceton is still focused on eliminating its four month order backlog and will turn its attention to brining new products to market after that.


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> C'mon man, we're talking Cablecard here, not some OTA/QAM tuner that gets a handful of channels in the clear.


I know what you're talking about and agree with you - but thought I'd just be interesting (and a bit off-topic) and say that WideOpenWest is actually putting stuff on clear QAM now. It's just an analog signal (with the required HD locals of course). You have two choices - get a digital tuning adapter (NOT the same thing as the SDV TA's) or just use clear QAM. Initially they were forcing the boxes on everyone with 2-years free before charging 1.99/month for them - but they actually shifted course and made everything available free on clear QAM. That was what floored me - never thought a cable company would listen to customers and actually do something like that.

Just wanted to say there ARE (few, very limited) situations where a plain-jane clear-QAM might be useful... I know it's mostly curiosity, and I don't even use it myself, but I love knowing it's there.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Videodrome said:


> http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/08/infinitv-4-usb-cablecard-tuner-hands-on/


Which doesn't exist yet. You continue to throw out 'plug and play' HTPC stuff that is in fantasy land either price-wise or on the market.

But it doesn't matter, IMO - Media Center, even with USB devices, is not plug and play because of Cablecard. Just like a Tivo.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> Which doesn't exist yet. You continue to throw out 'plug and play' HTPC stuff that is in fantasy land either price-wise or on the market.
> 
> But it doesn't matter, IMO - Media Center, even with USB devices, is not plug and play because of Cablecard. Just like a Tivo.


because some of us, want functionality and arent as price sensitive as you. A six tuner dvr, with extenders might cost more. But it makes a Tivo completely antique. Price is your requirement, not mine. For $200-$400 more, its cheaper, then 2 or 3 tivos. 6 tuners= 3 tivos ?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Well the HD Prime is now officially available for preorder which doesn't require you to open you computer case. It is available from newegg and the 6 tuner version will be available next week for preorder.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> Well the HD Prime is now officially available for preorder which doesn't require you to open you computer case. It is available from newegg and the 6 tuner version will be available next week for preorder.


Now this is an interesting development.

This could be game changing for the geeks in the wild (like me) at some point. The problem I continue to have is that no PC system can replace what I currently have in a Premiere (Netflix in HD, Tivo search capabilities), but this makes it closer. I cold see one mega PC and several $180 atom based PCs in every room.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

The three tuner version is supposed to ship on June 29, 2011. The six tuner HD Homerun is supposed to accept pre-orders next week, but ship _sooner_ than the three tuner version.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Videodrome said:


> because some of us, want functionality and arent as price sensitive as you. A six tuner dvr, with extenders might cost more. But it makes a Tivo completely antique.


That's like saying that a PC with six USB ports might cost more but it makes the iPad completely antique.

Consumers are not going to adopt PCs as DVRs at the same time that they're rejecting them for everything else in their life. Consumers want media consumption appliances. HTPCs simply aren't competitive in that space outside of a small niche of nerds.

You're missing the point of the "plug and play" argument. TiVo was for years superior to cable company DVRs. They haven't lost market because they aren't superior in the number of tuners. They have lost market because they're not perceived to be as simple, convenient, and cheap as cable company DVRs. HTPCs are even less simple, convenient, and cheap than TiVo or cable DVRs regardless of how many tuners they have or whether you have to open the case.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

nrc said:


> That's like saying that a PC with six USB ports might cost more but it makes the iPad completely antique.
> 
> Consumers are not going to adopt PCs as DVRs at the same time that they're rejecting them for everything else in their life. Consumers want media consumption appliances. HTPCs simply aren't competitive in that space outside of a small niche of nerds.
> 
> You're missing the point of the "plug and play" argument. TiVo was for years superior to cable company DVRs. They haven't lost market because they aren't superior in the number of tuners. They have lost market because they're not perceived to be as simple, convenient, and cheap as cable company DVRs. HTPCs are even less simple, convenient, and cheap than TiVo or cable DVRs regardless of how many tuners they have or whether you have to open the case.


Very well put.:up:


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

nrc said:


> That's like saying that a PC with six USB ports might cost more but it makes the iPad completely antique.
> 
> Consumers are not going to adopt PCs as DVRs at the same time that they're rejecting them for everything else in their life. Consumers want media consumption appliances. HTPCs simply aren't competitive in that space outside of a small niche of nerds.
> 
> You're missing the point of the "plug and play" argument. TiVo was for years superior to cable company DVRs. They haven't lost market because they aren't superior in the number of tuners. They have lost market because they're not perceived to be as simple, convenient, and cheap as cable company DVRs. HTPCs are even less simple, convenient, and cheap than TiVo or cable DVRs regardless of how many tuners they have or whether you have to open the case.


I guess the 3 month backorder from Ceton, is the reason no one is using htpcs. Did you know you could use any pc with visa or Win7 ? Also most people who can afford a tivo , can afford to buy a standalone tuner. Unless Tivo introduces something competitive , us "smart people" who can plug a usb device in and use an existing pc are going elsewhere. I have no plans to buy another Tivo product.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Videodrome said:


> I guess the 3 month backorder from Ceton, is the reason no one is using htpcs. Did you know you could use any pc with visa or Win7 ? Also most people who can afford a tivo , can afford to buy a standalone tuner. Unless Tivo introduces something competitive , us "smart people" who can plug a usb device in and use an existing pc are going elsewhere. I have no plans to buy another Tivo product.


nrc was talking about what he felt the "masses" are looking for in a DVR. I tend to agree with him - the masses want simple, no brain, and no pain solutions. Having to plug the coax cable in is more than what some people want to do. Because of cable cards TiVos are no longer simple, no brain, & no pain, and HTPCs never have been.

Recarding HTPCs - I have a low end one that I built over the winter to play with streaming stuff. And what you said is true pretty much any computer with a HDMI output is usable in some form as a HTPC. While it certainly is "simple" enough for most of the people on this forum it would not be acceptable for the masses and I have no desire to use it daily or as my DVR.

I am sure a high end custom built and installed HTPC with full tech support would be the ultimate solution for a home theater setup but then $$s we are talking about are not what the "masses" would be willing to pay.

Thanks,


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Been there and done the HTPC. Not going back. Will never have the WAF of the tivo or other media appliance. And they suck way too much power 24/7.

Besides, you thought it was tough to get comcrap to install a cable card in a Tivo? Wait till you ask them to install one in your PC erector set contraption. Oh, and without tuning adaptor support, even the Ceton tuners are DOA for most cable systems and still will not support sattelite. There are launching to an EXTREAMLY small audiance of video nerds....us I suppose.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> nrc was talking about what he felt the "masses" are looking for in a DVR. I tend to agree with him - the masses want simple, no brain, and no pain solutions. Having to plug the coax cable in is more than what some people want to do. Because of cable cards TiVos are no longer simple, no brain, & no pain, and HTPCs never have been.


This is exactly the point that both freak and video are missing. We're not the masses, and Cablecard makes pretty much anything non-plug and play. Claiming otherwise for an HTPC is just crazy talk.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Videodrome said:


> I guess the 3 month backorder from Ceton, is the reason no one is using htpcs. Did you know you could use any pc with visa or Win7 ? Also most people who can afford a tivo , can afford to buy a standalone tuner. Unless Tivo introduces something competitive , us "smart people" who can plug a usb device in and use an existing pc are going elsewhere. I have no plans to buy another Tivo product.


Amazon shows the Ceton 4 tuner card as available for immediate shipping (sold by Ceton, fulfilled by Amazon).

It appears that what backorder did exist had everything to do with production delays and small production runs from Ceton and little or nothing to do with demand. After a year of pre-order availability with nothing else available on the market it looks like the backorder may have been in the low thousands.

I'd be love to see HTPCs put competitive pressure on TiVo. Maybe that would force them to stop ignoring their standalone business. I don't see any real chance of that happening.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

unitron said:


> Are you kidding? Cable hates "cable-ready" anything, 'cause it costs them the opportunity to make you rent something from them in order to be able to get what you're already paying them for.


They hate cause they are idiots. Do the math- they arent making the majority of their profit renting boxes. They probably make as much profit on a single ppv as they might in a monthly rental on a box. (And rental on a box just might less profit then what they make on cable card or additional outlet fees)

So now the dumbnuts are in a position where DBS has like 1/4 of the market. Clearly their choices to fight off Dbs haven't been so smart.


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## jefny (Feb 13, 2008)

With the exception of the monthly fees ($3.99 per card) and a high truck roll cost my experience with cable cards and Verizon FIOS has been good. When I switched to Verizon FIOS several years ago the installer knew what to do and installed the cable card very quickly with little fuss. When I picked up a second FIOS I had to pay for an install but when I switched TIVOs (one went bad) I switched out the cable card myself and the Verizon tech walked me through installation over the phone at no cost to me.

John


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

nrc said:


> .......I'd be love to see HTPCs put competitive pressure on TiVo. Maybe that would force them to stop ignoring their standalone business. I don't see any real chance of that happening.


Sounds like a battle between two dwindling niche markets. Even the winner would still be a loser (in the context of achieving major market penetration).


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> ...Oh, and without tuning adaptor support, even the Ceton tuners are DOA for most cable systems and still will not support sattelite. There are launching to an EXTREAMLY small audiance of video nerds....us I suppose.


I did not know this. DOA. Definitely.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> They hate cause they are idiots. ...


Never said they weren't. But they are idiots with a monopoly on being able to bury cable in the right of way in our front yard.

Well, them and the phone and power company, but I don't forsee our phone company providing a preferable alternative to cable tv anytime soon (or ever).


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