# For All Mankind Apple TV + SPOILERS



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Just started the 2nd episode. I’m hooked. The concept is very interesting. USSR beats us to the moon. Space race never ends.


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## Jeff_in_Bklyn (Apr 26, 2003)

enjoyed the 1st episode, will continue watching.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Interesting but a little too "talky" for my taste. Still watching after three though.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

I was going to start a thread on this over the weekend and never made it, thanks for starting it.
As a spacegeek with a preexisting thing for alternate realities AND 60's period pieces , this is pretty much nails my niche demographic to a T and as expected I binged all 3 episodes and really like where they're taking it.
I didn't find it at all "too talky" since they had a huge amount of exposition to plow through, I don't view talky shows as a negative, I view them as telling a richer more detailed tale.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Error in Ep 2...Funk #49 wasn’t released by the James Gang until 1970. The episode used it as a backdrop to the Sept. ‘69 launch of Apollo 12.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Error in Ep 2...Funk #49 wasn't released by the James Gang until 1970. The episode used it as a backdrop to the Sept. '69 launch of Apollo 12.


The first Error I noticed was that the Russians landed on the moon.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> The first Error I noticed was that the Russians landed on the moon.


Obviously, the James Gang was so freaked out by the Russians beating us to the moon, they released the song sooner.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> The first Error I noticed was that the Russians landed on the moon.


What?!?! You mean they actually landed somewhere else?!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Obviously, the James Gang was so freaked out by the Russians beating us to the moon, they released the song sooner.


Well I mean in a movie about fake history, anything is fair game I'd say


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I’ve requested spoilers be added to the thread title. I forgot


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Did anyone else think they’d lose Apollo 11? They fooled me.


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## Jeff_in_Bklyn (Apr 26, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> Did anyone else think they'd lose Apollo 11? They fooled me.


They should have went hard, and lost Apollo 11 and had to deal with Collins staying up there, I felt it was sort of a chicken out.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Gunnyman said:


> Did anyone else think they'd lose Apollo 11? They fooled me.


Me, too...I smiled & cheered


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## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> Did anyone else think they'd lose Apollo 11? They fooled me.


Fooled me too and I was surprised by how emotional I found those scenes. Good pilot, best of the Apple TV + shows in my opinion but I won't be watching... too much TV to watch and I think I've reached my limit on the different streaming services.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I really enjoyed the 4th Episode, show gets better with each episode I think.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

I wondered what they were going to do with Apollo 13, and the answer seems to have been to just not mention it, in an episode that focused on the women astronauts' training and the run-up to the Apollo 15 launch -- presumably, in this timeline, the Apollo 13 mission went fine and allowed NASA to continue on their accelerated schedule of Apollo launches.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

trainman said:


> I wondered what they were going to do with Apollo 13,


I bet Apollo 15 is going to be this show's Apollo 13.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

I just binged all of the episodes yesterday and I have found my favorite show on AppleTV+. I almost wish that I had waited until the season run was over so I could watch them all at once.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, this show is amazing. I guess when Ronald Moore is tethered to some semblance of reality, it overcomes his storytelling weaknesses (i.e., his tendency to just make ^#%@ up as it suits him, regardless of whether it fits in with anything else).


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Enjoying it. I wasn’t feeling it midway through the first episode for many reasons but stuck it out thanks to this thread. Too many TCFers here like it so I multitasked through episode 1, gained interest in episode 2, and almost caught up.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

This is the best show on the service. I look forward to Friday nights after work to watch.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

For sure, I'm really enjoying it as I said before every episode gets better and better.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I cannot get into this. I guess I have a problem with this kind of storytelling. That is, an alternate history where things happened differently and we're supposed to accept it as if it did.

I also could not get into Man in the High Castle and Tarantino's Inglourious Basterds is one of my least favorite of his.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

gossamer88 said:


> That is, an alternate history where things happened differently and we're supposed to accept it as if it did.


Isn't "things happened differently" the very definition of alternate history?

I want to see if this is addressed at all in future episodes, but timeline divergences should also include divergences in pop culture, so they shouldn't be using pop songs from our timeline anymore. ("Moonage Daydream" in episode 5 seemed acceptable, though, since David Bowie seemed to be occupying a bunch of different timelines anyway.)


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Well Nixon ended Vietnam 5 years early on this show. So I think music is up for grabs.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

How many episodes should I give this show if I didn't like the first episode? There was too much time devoted to the melodramatic emotions of the characters and scant little about the guts of the space program and how it might work. I really really dislike the way they are doing Nixon and a few others with the Making a Murder style captions over stock footage, but I can get over that if the general balance of the show changes to be more about the space program and less about the torturous melodrama. The first episode felt like a lifetime movie remake of The Right Stuff that left out everything that made that movie good.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> How many episodes should I give this show if I didn't like the first episode? There was too much time devoted to the melodramatic emotions of the characters and scant little about the guts of the space program and how it might work. I really really dislike the way they are doing Nixon and a few others with the Making a Murder style captions over stock footage, but I can get over that if the general balance of the show changes to be more about the space program and less about the torturous melodrama. The first episode felt like a lifetime movie remake of The Right Stuff that left out everything that made that movie good.


Give up now.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

At least go the second episode, I think it has gotten better each episode. 

If you do not think the second episode is better, then give up for sure.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

vertigo235 said:


> At least go the second episode, I think it has gotten better each episode.
> 
> If you do not think the second episode is better, then give up for sure.


Agreed. Per my comment up thread, I gave up after the first episode but came back. I'm enjoying it now.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I watched most of the second episode before being interrupted. I did enjoy it more than the first. Part of that is that it was less over the top, part was more interesting plots, and part was reduced expectations. That said, I worry that I'm going to compare it unfavorably to The Calculating Stars for the women-at-NASA plot lines. I hope to be proven wrong. That's a very good novel to read if you like the alternate-history-NASA genre, BTW.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

Ted Kennedy a feminist icon? :frowning: I'll pass.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

crazywater said:


> Ted Kennedy a feminist icon? :frowning: I'll pass.


Huh. I thought it was perfect; the Russian moon landing caused him to cancel his party, so MJK never died, so he was able to tie his wagon to the next convenient liberal cause, indirectly causing the Nedelin disaster to happen to us instead of them, allowing von Braun's protege to blackmail her way into a directorship. Beautiful.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

TAsunder said:


> I watched most of the second episode before being interrupted. I did enjoy it more than the first. Part of that is that it was less over the top, part was more interesting plots, and part was reduced expectations. That said, I worry that I'm going to compare it unfavorably to The Calculating Stars for the women-at-NASA plot lines. I hope to be proven wrong. That's a very good novel to read if you like the alternate-history-NASA genre, BTW.


Technically, the "Lady Astronaut" series is alternate-history-NACA genre, there isn't any NASA there.

One problem I have with The Calculating Stars is that I don't see how electing Dewey president could have caused a meteorite strike. (JK)


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

So, I "binged" through epsiodes 2-6 over the past several days.. I thought I gotten all caught up.. But now I see an episode 7? Could have sworn it wasn't there last night


Obviously, its too late to discuss specific things about specific episodes at this point. But this show is interesting.. A weird mix of actual reality/history and total alternate reality/history. It took a bit of time, but it finally began to really diverge. I'm digging it.. But I totally get why so many don't like it and want it to be more factual like "The Right Stuff" or "From The Earth To The Moon" or "Apollo 13"


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> So, I "binged" through epsiodes 2-6 over the past several days.. I thought I gotten all caught up.. But now I see an episode 7? _*Could have sworn it wasn't there last night*_...


According to THIS, it was


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Episode 7 was not as good as the rest, I just looked at the link above by @Bierboy and I guess I see why, my two least favorite episodes were by Ron Moore.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Hmmm,, I guess it's a time zone issue of when they release the episodes.

should I bail?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> Hmmm,, I guess it's a time zone issue of when they release the episodes.
> 
> should I bail?


Why would you bail if you're "digging it"?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Why would you bail if you're "digging it"?


Maybe he was "digging it's grave."


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> Why would you bail if you're "digging it"?


well, I thought i was. But it seems the show isn't holding up well with newer epsiodes


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Does it bother anyone else that there is no 2 second delay when people on the Moon talk to people on Earth?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

ej42137 said:


> Does it bother anyone else that there is no 2 second delay when people on the Moon talk to people on Earth?


It's alternative history/reality. Maybe technology is better...?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

jsmeeker said:


> It's alternative history/reality. Maybe technology is better...?


An alternative history doesn't usually come with different laws of physics. And if their technology was that much better a "computer" wouldn't still be a girl instead of a machine.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

OK.. I'll try again to answer the question. This time a bit more seriously.



ej42137 said:


> Does it bother anyone else that there is no 2 second delay when people on the Moon talk to people on Earth?


No


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> Maybe technology is better...?


Well, Sony Betamax devices were brought out earlier in the "For All Mankind" timeline -- 1974 if not 1973, versus 1975 in our timeline. (The dialogue in the most recent episode about the Hollywood studios not wanting people to record TV shows does seem to indicate that they're available to the general public by late 1974.)


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

trainman said:


> Well, Sony Betamax devices were brought out earlier in the "For All Mankind" timeline -- 1974 if not 1973, versus 1975 in our timeline. (The dialogue in the most recent episode about the Hollywood studios not wanting people to record TV shows does seem to indicate that they're available to the general public by late 1974.)




I noticed the machine was a Betamax And also giggled about the line about recording TV shows and being able to skip the commercials


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

trainman said:


> Well, Sony Betamax devices were brought out earlier in the "For All Mankind" timeline -- 1974 if not 1973, versus 1975 in our timeline. (The dialogue in the most recent episode about the Hollywood studios not wanting people to record TV shows does seem to indicate that they're available to the general public by late 1974.)


My interpretation of the dialog was the opposite, that as in our timeline the devices were not yet available to the general public; there isn't any point in hiding VCRs if the public can already buy them. The only reason to bring it up is for the writers to say "yes, we know it's not quite VCR time yet."

It would have been pretty odd for the VCR to be VHS, since VHS was developed subsequent to Beta.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Woah. This show got dark super quick. Lost a ship, almost lost Molly, a dead Cosmonaut not to mention Shane’s death. I’m almost turned off by it but I’m going to hang in there.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm hoping that they just lost communication with the ship and that the crew is ok. Also hoping that Ed pressurizes the air lock and that the Cosmonaut just lost consciousness and isn't dead. I'm glad they did't kill off Molly.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I'm hoping that they just lost communication with the ship and that the crew is ok. Also hoping that Ed pressurizes the air lock and that the Cosmonaut just lost consciousness and isn't dead. I'm glad they did't kill off Molly.


Thats what I am thinking as Ed is potentially creating a war here. I am also thinking since Ed shut down the transmitter the Russian was coming to tell him about the rescue mission.


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

I don’t know. The Russian kinda brandished that hammer at him when Ed caught him coming out of the crater. Seems like the lines were drawn at that point. 

The dark turn doesn’t turn me off at all, but it’s certainly a bit of a change in tone from the earlier episodes (minus the training accident death).


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

SoupMan said:


> I don't know. The Russian kinda brandished that hammer at him when Ed caught him coming out of the crater. Seems like the lines were drawn at that point.
> 
> The dark turn doesn't turn me off at all, but it's certainly a bit of a change in tone from the earlier episodes (minus the training accident death).


I am sure he was upset when he saw his research equipment destroyed but looking at the sequencing of things and the subsequent issue of the rescue missing falling apart, I think that he might have been ordered thought better of it.

Either way its going to be a ride!


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

I assume Ed disabled the Russian rover, so the cosmonaut was forced to go to Jamestown.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

nataylor said:


> I assume Ed disabled the Russian rover, so the cosmonaut was forced to go to Jamestown.


That's exactly the impression I got (from Ed saying something like "Oh, your rover broke down?" as if he knew exactly what had happened).

So it's December 1974, and they're having the 1976 presidential campaign be in the news -- I think they've forgotten that election cycles used to not be quite as long as they are today.  At the very least, they could have had Barbara Walters Anchorwoman with a Slight Speech Impediment say something like, "With NASA's recent failures and President Kennedy's sex scandal, there is ]i]already[/i] talk that..."


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

RIP Astronaut Harrison Liu.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

LlamaLarry said:


> RIP Astronaut Harrison Liu.


Was he the one that got fried after getting whipped around to the back of the booster?


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

Yeah, he was the astronaut out with Molly; at least it was instantaneous. I was pretty worried we were going to see Molly check out as well.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

trainman said:


> That's exactly the impression I got (from Ed saying something like "Oh, your rover broke down?" as if he knew exactly what had happened).


With a suppressed rising inflection, to indicate irony. Apparently he planned the whole convoluted scheme. I would have thought there would be far easier and more reliable ways to kill the cosmonaut.



LlamaLarry said:


> RIP Astronaut Harrison Liu.


And nobody mentions it for the entire episode. They should have put him in a red shirt in the briefing room.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> With a suppressed rising inflection, to indicate irony. Apparently he planned the whole convoluted scheme. I would have thought there would be far easier and more reliable ways to kill the cosmonaut.


Seems like it was a pretty good way to do it without a physical confrontation.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

nataylor said:


> Seems like it was a pretty good way to do it without a physical confrontation.


Disable the elevator. Don't open the airlock. Drop a rock on him. Start an avalanche. What he did could have gone wrong in a million different ways.

Besides which, his old job was physically confronting communists and killing them. Until next episode I'm holding out hope that he either has a change of heart at the last minute, or his plan all along was to disable and capture; at least then the convoluted plan would make some little sense.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Gunnyman said:


> Woah. This show got dark super quick. Lost a ship, almost lost Molly, a dead Cosmonaut not to mention Shane's death. I'm almost turned off by it but I'm going to hang in there.


Plus Margo's career probably over. I doubt NASA can afford to keep her in place after she ordered the astronauts to let Molly die, and they were able to rescue her anyway.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus Margo's career probably over. I doubt NASA can afford to keep her in place after she ordered the astronauts to let Molly die, and they were able to rescue her anyway.


Which is dumb, because Margo made the 100% right call.

Molly should have vented her suit to remove the need for the other crew members to risk their lives to save her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nataylor said:


> Which is dumb, because Margo made the 100% right call.


Although the writers wanted to have it both ways...it was kind of a cop-out to have her make the right call, and then be proven wrong (she didn't say they probably couldn't rescue Molly; she said they definitely couldn't). The way it looks now, she was just plain wrong. And given what a genius she's been portrayed as being in orbital mechanics etc., having her be "wrong" seems, well, wrong. She calculated the Cold Equations, and she should have been proven right.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She calculated the Cold Equations, and she should have been proven right.


Nice.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although the writers wanted to have it both ways...it was kind of a cop-out to have her make the right call, and then be proven wrong (she didn't say they probably couldn't rescue Molly; she said they definitely couldn't). The way it looks now, she was just plain wrong. And given what a genius she's been portrayed as being in orbital mechanics etc., having her be "wrong" seems, well, wrong. She calculated the Cold Equations, and she should have been proven right.


And right before she made the call, flight dynamics said that there were no trajectories that conserved enough fuel (due to uncertainty in Molly's trajectory).


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Whoa...

I was waiting for the Americans and Russians to have some sort of encounter on the moon.. But I wasn't really expecting that. I guess next episode is the "Apollo 13" episode.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> Whoa...
> 
> I was waiting for the Americans and Russians to have some sort of encounter on the moon.. But I wasn't really expecting that. I guess next episode is the "Apollo 13" episode.


Either that or something like the ending of the Abyss special edition where the alien creature stopped the war between the Americans and the a Russians.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

zalusky said:


> Either that or something like the ending of the Abyss special edition where the alien creature stopped the war between the Americans and the a Russians.


lol... that would be bad.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Episode 10 on 12/20/2019 I think this is the end of season 1?



hummingbird_206 said:


> I'm hoping that they just lost communication with the ship and that the crew is ok. Also hoping that Ed pressurizes the air lock and that the Cosmonaut just lost consciousness and isn't dead. I'm glad they did't kill off Molly.


Yay! Well, Deke wasn't ok, but at least we got to see a bit more of him. He was rough on Ellen, but he was right. If she came out in that day and age, her career would have been over.



nataylor said:


> I assume Ed disabled the Russian rover, so the cosmonaut was forced to go to Jamestown.


I totally missed that, but you were right. I was glad to see Mikhail help Ed and then Ed give him back the part to the Soviet Rover. Looks like Ed's plan was to try to get info out of the Soviet and not to kill him. I'm glad Ed wasn't a murderer.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Plus Margo's career probably over. I doubt NASA can afford to keep her in place after she ordered the astronauts to let Molly die, and they were able to rescue her anyway.


I'm really glad this didn't happen. I liked the scene where Molly told Margo that Margo made the right call.

There was a scene from 1983 after the credits. I'm not sure if it counts as a preview and should only be discussed in spoiler tags, but I'm assuming so and will err on the side of caution.


Spoiler: Post credits scene



So was that rocket with the plutonium probably launched from a submarine? I would guess that they are going to build a nuclear power plant on the moon but I don't really know much about nuclear stuff.


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

Spoiler: Regarding after credits scene



Best I can tell, I don't think it was sub launched. Looks like this thing. [URL='https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Dragon_(rocket)']Sea Dragon (rocket) - Wikipedia


[/URL]


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 30, 2003)

Woo that was a ride! I was bummed by Deke's responses, even if they make sense in the time period. I definitely got a lump in my throat when they told Marjorie, but I really liked the added touch of her buttoning up her jacket and straightening up when they were on the way.

Speaking of which, why the heck is security so lax at JSC? Aleida shows up pretty much whenever she feels like and wanders everywhere including into Margo's office, Karen brings Pam, etc. After the FBI scrubbed everyone looking for Soviets, then ended up catching undocumented workers after scaring them for bringing home unclassified (?) trash, I would expect NASA security to be pretty tight, especially in viewing areas of Flight operations.

Spoilering end credit stuff (thanks for telling me there was one)


Spoiler



I am really looking forward to a jump to 1983, but hopefully they fill in Waverly's time at Jamestown and further contact with the Soviets, especially since Mikhail was looking at the settlement when Baldwin took off. Any news on S2?


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I don't know what security was like in the late 1960's but it does seem strange that they would have an illegal working there and that his daughter had access to the facility, too. I think once Margo took on the role of Alieda's mentor that access was expected, but yes, security still seems pretty lax. 

I don't know why it would seem so strange for Pam to be kept informed and want to be onsite for updates as Ellen's best friend. Sure they want to keep Ellen and Pam's romantic relationship a secret, but would be very easy to pass it off as a friend relationship. I guess they had to be careful and being paranoid was part of that.

I really enjoyed this first season. I assume there is a second season, but I haven't seen any premiere dates for the second season of any of the Apple TV + shows.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I don't know why it would seem so strange for Pam to be kept informed and want to be onsite for updates as Ellen's best friend. Sure they want to keep Ellen and Pam's romantic relationship a secret, but would be very easy to pass it off as a friend relationship. I guess they had to be careful and being paranoid was part of that.


Although since she (Ellen) had already been investigated for suspicion of gayness, she (Pam) really was playing with fire.

I assume they have plans for Alieda in Season 2 (maybe with an older actor?), since she didn't really add anything to the plot this season. (The show was renewed weeks before it even premiered.)


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

RIP Deke.

Go women. 

Loved it when Margo told the director (is that who he is) to go eff off. That was awesome. Really loved the reaction it got from the rest of the people in mission control. They really loved it too.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I assume they have plans for Alieda in Season 2 (maybe with an older actor?), since she didn't really add anything to the plot this season. (The show was renewed weeks before it even premiered.)


Total and complete speculation: I've been predicting that, in a future season, she would be the first human on Mars.

On that post-credits scene:



Spoiler



The launch was apparently being broadcast live on TV, so it didn't appear that it was a secret military mission. My guess: a plutonium-powered rocket on its way to Mars. (But I think this would make Alieda a little young to match my prediction.)

The writers/producers may not have decided yet exactly what's going on with that launch, though. It might depend on whether they decide to have the 1976 election result in a Kennedy re-election or a Reagan win.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Spoiler



didn't the announcer in that rocket launch coverage say something about a supply mission to Jamestown station??


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

With the episode making a point to show Reagan, I fully expect the moon to be militarized when we rejoin Jamestown in season 2.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Why is everybody spoilerizing discussion of a scene that was in this episode? It's not a preview; it's a scene.


SoupMan said:


> With the episode making a point to show Reagan, I fully expect the moon to be militarized when we rejoin Jamestown in season 2.


The Russian gave the station an odd look as Edward was blasting off...obviously Edward and Ellen didn't notice anything when they got back, but I wonder...


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## SoupMan (Mar 1, 2001)

Let’s call it an abundance of caution. One man’s final scene is another man’s preview.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why is everybody spoilerizing discussion of a scene that was in this episode? It's not a preview; it's a scene.


is it?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> is it?


Well, yeah. What is there to indicate otherwise?

I mean, if they'd said "Next season on For All Mankind," I'd concede the point. But they didn't. It was presented as part of this season. And yes, they were using it to tease their plans for next year...but they did it in this episode, so it's fair game.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, yeah. What is there to indicate otherwise?
> 
> I mean, if they'd said "Next season on For All Mankind," I'd concede the point. But they didn't. It was presented as part of this season. And yes, they were using it to tease their plans for next year...but they did it in this episode, so it's fair game.


In other TV shows, anything post credits is considered a preview. I was the first person to post about it and as I said, I'd rather err on the side of caution. Plus some people may have missed it since it was post credits, so why not give them an opportunity to go back and see it before reading about it here?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

hummingbird_206 said:


> In other TV shows, anything post credits is considered a preview. I was the first person to post about it and as I said, I'd rather err on the side of caution. Plus some people may have missed it since it was post credits, so why not give them an opportunity to go back and see it before reading about it here?


They're considered previews if they're presented as scenes from future episodes. That is not the case here.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> They're considered previews if they're presented as scenes from future episodes. That is not the case here.


I don't agree. I think it was presented as a preview for season 2. I don't see any problem with spoilerizing things that might be considered a spoiler for someone. I've seen it, so it's not a spoiler for me. But I'm not going to argue about it any more. Do what you want.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

hummingbird_206 said:


> I don't agree. I think it was presented as a preview for season 2. I don't see any problem with spoilerizing things that might be considered a spoiler for someone. I've seen it, so it's not a spoiler for me. But I'm not going to argue about it any more. Do what you want.


Also its not a next week episode. It's a frickin year away. We should be able to talk about it and what it means.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I gotta say this show is outstanding. Growing up through this time period and loving the space program I suppose heavily influences my feelings. But the acting is top notch, and thy hit a home run casting Joel Kinnaman in the lead role. Supporting cast is wonderful, too.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> ...thy hit a home run...


That should be "thou hit a home run." Get your Middle English cases right!


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

trainman said:


> Total and complete speculation: I've been predicting that, in a future season, she would be the first human on Mars.
> 
> On that post-credits scene:
> 
> ...


It's a preview of next season. Previews usually consist of scenes from the future episode.



Spoiler



That's what I though at first, but I was confused because I wouldn't expect a nuclear rocket to have a smokey, fiery plume. The configuration of the rocket almost exactly matches the Sea Dragon, as was pointed out above, so I agree with the previous post that's what it's supposed to be.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> It's a preview of next season. Previews usually consist of scenes from the future episode.


OK, sorry, I missed the part where they said "Next Season on For All Mankind."

He said, sarcastically.

No, it wasn't a preview of next season. It was the end of this season.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> OK, sorry, I missed the part where they said "Next Season on For All Mankind."
> 
> He said, sarcastically.
> 
> No, it wasn't a preview of next season. It was the end of this season.


Well, we'll just have to agree that you're wrong; it'a preview because it's a scene from the next season and it came after the end-credits. It wasn't explaining or extending anything that happened in the episode, it was a teaser from the next season. Moreover, the voice-over, in the mode of previews, was lacking in context, teasing us with a preview of the next season.

Apparently you are the kind of guy that won't recognize a flash-back if the date is not displayed on the lower-thirds. Sometimes things are clear from context and don't have to be spelt out.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Except, of course, next season hasn't even been filmed yet...


----------



## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

It is a teaser like the those shown after the Marvel movies — a whole different category which isn’t really a spoiler, IMO.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except, of course, next season hasn't even been filmed yet...


except for one scene


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> except for one scene


...which was scripted, filmed, and edited as part of this season, not next season.

Just because some people can't understand the difference between a time-jump and a trailer for future episodes doesn't mean the rest of us should have to pretend we don't either.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

We have no idea what next season is about. This scene is simply meant to say that everything in this season is over with. People are not stuck on the moon waiting for rescue. They gay thing was put back in the closet. ...


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

zalusky said:


> We have no idea what next season is about. This scene is simply meant to say that everything in this season is over with. People are not stuck on the moon waiting for rescue. They gay thing was put back in the closet. ...


Well, based on the *preview* scene, it will


Spoiler



at least be about building out Jamestown, developing and launching big dumb rockets like the Sea Dragon, and continuing competition with the Soviets. (Perhaps we will be bleeding them dry with an extended space race instead of Afghanistan and Star Wars.) And Ed and Karen are still together.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ej42137 said:


> Well, based on the *preview* scene, it will


[Princess Bride quote.. you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it does [/Princess Bride quote...
Sorry, but you're not in the right on this one no matter how much you want to be, that scene is the final scene that ends Season 1, much like the final scene in a Marvel movie after the credits, it's considered part of that movie


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

+1 for not a preview scene


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Agreed


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Finally got around to watching the season finale. 

OMG! Sea Dragon! SO awesome! The largest rocket ever designed.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Extended for a third season...before the second airs.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Wondering if they are worried about losing subs beyond the extended trials.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

T Minus 33 days and counting.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Oh, sweet, I really enjoyed Season 1, looking forward to this.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I'm really curious where they will go with this show, but I'm in.


----------



## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I'm really curious where they will go with this show, but I'm in.


To the moon, silly.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jay_man2 said:


> To the moon, silly.


Been there done that!


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Trailer looks good! I really enjoyed season 1. I Think 2 will be even better!


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Yeah, Season 1 was more hit than miss to me (the last two episodes were a departure from my normal level of sustainable disbelief). 

I'm looking forward to Season 2, and I hope that like Season 1 they use this as another opportunity to unearth some obscure Apollo and Shuttle-era discarded designs.

Hope everyone here saw the post-credits scene at the end of Season 1.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> Yeah, Season 1 was more hit than miss to me (the last two episodes were a departure from my normal level of sustainable disbelief).
> 
> I'm looking forward to Season 2, and I hope that like Season 1 they use this as another opportunity to unearth some obscure Apollo and Shuttle-era discarded designs.
> 
> Hope everyone here saw the post-credits scene at the end of Season 1.


I hope S2 has a lot less melodrama, but I get that some of it was to establish the characters.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I hope S2 has a lot less melodrama, but I get that some of it was to establish the characters.


Depends on what you are talking about for melodrama. For the ground-based stuff, I'll actually accept some of the melodrama, since a lot of that was surprisingly real. For real history, read Deke! which covers a lot of the random Astronaut Office drama.

For the space-based drama? Yeah, I'm with you.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I hope S2 has a lot less melodrama, but I get that some of it was to establish the characters.


More space drama, less human drama. Overabundant human drama is why _The First_ and _Away_ didn't survive past their first seasons. Not saying I want moon-buggy fights like Ad Astra.

But the Apollo 24 / 25 mishap from last season was a pretty good space-drama to cap the season.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> More space drama, less human drama. Overabundant human drama is why _The First_ and _Away_ didn't survive past their first seasons. Not saying I want moon-buggy fights like Ad Astra.
> 
> But the Apollo 24 / 25 mishap from last season was a pretty good space-drama to cap the season.


Yeah, I didn't make it past E4 of Away for that reason. This was much better, and the last 3 or so episodes of this series was top notch. It's the adultery stuff and the kids getting in trouble stuff I could have done without. Has anyone explained why the changed the name of some astronauts and kept others? Gordo Cooper's name has been changed for example. Was that for legal reasons?


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Has anyone explained why the changed the name of some astronauts and kept others? Gordo Cooper's name has been changed for example. Was that for legal reasons?


I don't think Gordon Stevens is meant to be a drop-in replacement for Gordon Cooper. Cooper's actual NASA career never advanced past Gemini. Plus Gordo Stevens doesn't have Mercury program swagger. I don't think Ed Baldwin is a drop-in for RL astronauts either.

It is alternative history, and it needs some non-fictional characters for the buy-in.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> I don't think Gordon Stevens is meant to be a drop-in replacement for Gordon Cooper. Cooper's actual NASA career never advanced past Gemini. Plus Gordo Stevens doesn't have Mercury program swagger. I don't think Ed Baldwin is a drop-in for RL astronauts either.
> 
> It is alternative history, and it needs some non-fictional characters for the buy-in.


I assumed it was because Cooper was called "Gordo" just like Stevens is. I also think there was some talk (at least in the NatGeo version of The Right Stuff") about his wife wanting to be a pilot or astronaut (If forget which), so I think they just subbed the name. Obviously the path he took is different than what Cooper did, because as you say, it's fictional. I also assumed, maybe wrongly, that Ed Baldwin was a substitute for Ed White, who died in Apollo1. But again, fictionalized. I don't think having a "Gordo" as one of the astronauts was coincidental. But you could be right and it's completely a fictional character.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I also assumed, maybe wrongly, that Ed Baldwin was a substitute for Ed White, who died in Apollo1


The Apollo 1 fire is mentioned in FAM. They didn't have the Apollo 13 explosion though, and Apollo 14 on dovetail from the actual historical missions.

Molly Cobb is based on a real person. Geraldyn M. Cobb


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Yeah, like any sort of "alternative history" work, they've mostly replaced main characters with close analogs, I think s

Only "main" character that's actually a real historical figure is Deke Slayton.

The only semi-major characters I see that seem to be real people were Kranz and Von Braun, and both of them differ modestly from their real-world counterparts.

All sorts of other divergences as well.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> Yeah, like any sort of "alternative history" work, they've mostly replaced main characters with close analogs, I think s
> 
> Only "main" character that's actually a real historical figure is Deke Slayton.
> 
> ...


Obviously Kranz and Von Braun and Deke were real people. And there were always questions about Von Braun's Nazi past. As I said, I'm pretty sure there's a connection between Stevens and Cooper, otherwise they could have gone with a completely different name so there is no confusion. I figure because of how they portrayed Gordo Stevens, they changed the name to avoid possible lawsuits. And they did mention some other real astronauts. I remember them talking about Borman and Lovell for example.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Obviously Kranz and Von Braun and Deke were real people. And there were always questions about Von Braun's Nazi past. As I said, I'm pretty sure there's a connection between Stevens and Cooper, otherwise they could have gone with a completely different name so there is no confusion. I figure because of how they portrayed Gordo Stevens, they changed the name to avoid possible lawsuits. And they did mention some other real astronauts. I remember them talking about Borman and Lovell for example.


I should have finished my thought up there. They replace major characters with analogs just to give them a bit of freedom to not be too tied to the actual person.

So I think you are right. Gordo's nominally a replacement for Gordon Cooper; their backgrounds are similar, just that Gordo in FAM seems to have stayed in NASA's good graces a bit longer. This actually makes a bit of sense if something happened in this universe to make Apollo 10's prime crew unavailable; Gordon Cooper was on the Apollo 10 backup crew, along with Don Eisele, another astronaut not terribly liked by Deke.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

For what it's worth, I do like, aside from a few people being replaced by similar characters, trying to figure out what the nominal departure point between real history and FAM.

I'm guessing that it's January 1966, when Sergei Korolev died during botched surgery. That severely hobbled the Soviet rocket program; perhaps if Korolev lived the N1 program would have been successful, and they would have had enough heavy lift capability to convert their Zond flybys of the Moon into full Soyuz-7K-LOK flights and potentially do a landing.

Although that's probably the point where the NASA logos in FAM got mirror-imaged, too[1]

[1] Upon seeing the first trailer for FAM, my friend Allie the spacesuit engineer immediately said "the logo's backward. Wonder if that was intentional"


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

kaszeta said:


> perhaps if Korolev lived the N1 program would have been successfu


The USSR's failure to get to the moon can't be attributed to Korolev's death alone. There were failures before and after Korolev's death. Two close-calls, two fatal accidents, and third actually in space. The show never mentions The Chief Designer by name, and I think it's intentional because they didn't want to get mired on the actual turning point.

Alternative history narratives love the "single event/person" altering the course of history. In P.K. Dick's _Man in the High Castle_, FDR's assassination led to the US isolationism, being stuck in the Great Depression and losing WWII. As much as I love that story, the single person/key event theory always bugged me- because it implies history is simpler than it actually is. It's like believing if Archduke Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, WW1 wouldn't have happened.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Saturn_V said:


> The USSR's failure to get to the moon can't be attributed to Korolev's death alone. There were failures before and after Korolev's death. Two close-calls, two fatal accidents, and third actually in space. The show never mentions The Chief Designer by name, and I think it's intentional because they didn't want to get mired on the actual turning point.
> 
> Alternative history narratives love the "single event/person" altering the course of history. In P.K. Dick's _Man in the High Castle_, FDR's assassination led to the US isolationism, being stuck in the Great Depression and losing WWII. As much as I love that story, the single person/key event theory always bugged me- because it implies history is simpler than it actually is. It's like believing if Archduke Ferdinand wasn't assassinated, WW1 wouldn't have happened.


That's the Great Man Theory of history. Which is pretty much out of favor among historians for the past couple of generations...


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That's the Great Man Theory of history. Which is pretty much out of favor among historians for the past couple of generations...


Or Great Woman of History.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Or Great Woman of History.


...although in that case they seem to be going more with Chaos Theory (the notion that a tiny change can have huge impacts. a.k.a. The Butterfly Effect)...

(The Great Man Theory was named in the 19th Century, when to the extent that women were considered, they were lumped in with men under "Men.")


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

T-minus... ah fuggedabout it. Next week!


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

I posted this on the "Away" thread too, but it's about both shows-I will spoilerize here as I did there-


Spoiler



I lol'ed when i saw that the "Russian astronaut" on both shows is played by the same dude! Like Costa Ronin plays the Soviet spy on The Americans and Homeland-are there that few Russian Actors?  ..and I was looking the "Russian Astronaut" actor on IMDB and he was on Homeland too! LOLOLOL!


----------



## jr461 (Jul 9, 2004)

Regina said:


> I posted this on the "Away" thread too, but it's about both shows-I will spoilerize here as I did there-
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



Good he hasn't gotten typecast at all! 



Looking forward to S2 of "Mankind" this week. Re-watched recently as my wife missed it so it's still pretty fresh.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

We have one episode left in S1.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Is this still going to drop weekly or all at once?


----------



## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Is this still going to drop weekly or all at once?


It appears to be dropping once a week starting February 19.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Is this still going to drop weekly or all at once?


These types of questions can almost always be answered by checking WIKI.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

My wife never watched S1 with me but we both enjoyed Away. I am going to try and get her to (re)watch S1 with me before we get into S2


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> These types of questions can almost always be answered by checking WIKI.


That's true, or I can ask them here and someone will answer as well


----------



## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> These types of questions can almost always be answered by checking WIKI.


I went to IMDB for the show. I tried the wiki first and didn't look hard enough to see the answer.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Pretty solid bet that for returning seasons of Apple’s headlining shows, they’ll drop them weekly. There have been some things they’ve released all at once, but for the most part they are not in the binge model for anything new. Nor should they be; they should be encouraging the habit of sticking around if they want the service to work out.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, typically they release the first two or three episodes at once, then the rest weekly.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I've been intending to watch S1 at some point but haven't gotten around to it. I think I will try harder now after reading Alan Sepinwall's review of season two:

'For All Mankind' Season 2 Takes Flight


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, typically they release the first two or three episodes at once, then the rest weekly.


And I think even that is for debut seasons. We'll see what they do when they can get production ramped back up on everything, but so far the few season twos they've launched (Servant, Dickinson) have been one-at-a-time the whole way.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> Pretty solid bet that for returning seasons of Apple's headlining shows, they'll drop them weekly. There have been some things they've released all at once, but for the most part they are not in the binge model for anything new. Nor should they be; they should be encouraging the habit of sticking around if they want the service to work out.


The dropping all at once model seems to have worked out well for Netflix (and Amazon Prime, but that's a different dynamic). Apple has such a limited number of shows, that I agree, they need to string viewers along or they will quit if they are on a monthly plan. I still think at some point more companies will go to a yearly plan (or at least use the model that the newer streamers are using, offer a year at a discount), because it is dumb business model to have folks drop in for a month at a time and then leave. Works OK for the consumer, but what a business wants.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Enjoyed the first episode of season 2.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

nataylor said:


> Enjoyed the first episode of season 2.


Eh...not so much. Until the last 20 mins or so. It was very slow before that.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I was wondering why Cobb left her dosimeter behind. It's not like that would prevent her from getting radiation poisoning, or anybody else from finding out.

Then when she got back to the cave, I realize she did it so that we would know she would have been OK if she hadn't gone back for her friend. How thoughtful of her!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

If she had survived to him right away she would have cut their exposure probably in half of more. So, unless in this timeline the Russians have a cure for cancer they're dead people walking.


So John Lennon survived and The Pope was killed.

I was too preoccupied by the horrible Pravda headline (whoever wrote it has no understanding of Russian grammar - I'll proof read for free!) to notice most of the other headlines. What did I miss?


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

I do question the usefulness of a dosimeter that is only capable of indicating “anywhere from no radiation to just shy of enough to kill you” and “already dead.”


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nataylor said:


> I do question the usefulness of a dosimeter that is only capable of indicating "anywhere from no radiation to just shy of enough to kill you" and "already dead."


Yeah, as I said it served a plot purpose, not a practical purpose.

They did say that the green reading meant you were OK, so maybe there is an intermediate setting that we didn't see?


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

You’d hope a decent dosimeter with visual feedback had levels between “good” and “well and truly effed”


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

wprager said:


> So John Lennon survived and The Pope was killed.


PUT A (fake) BEATLES SONG FROM THEIR 1984 REUNION ALBUM ON THE SHOW'S SOUNDTRACK THIS SEASON, YOU COWARDS!


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Queen Camilla!


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

nataylor said:


> Enjoyed the first episode of season 2.


I did as well; but I have two questions:

When did they get faster than light communication with the moon; there was no two second lag apparent during their conversations with Earth.
How did Roman Polankski's arrest at the Canadian border cause a Carrington event?


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I was wondering why Cobb left her dosimeter behind. It's not like that would prevent her from getting radiation poisoning, or anybody else from finding out.


My assumption was that she was hoping not to be grounded by her dosimeter.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> My assumption was that she was hoping not to be grounded by her dosimeter.


But when she got sick and died, that would pretty much have the same effect. It just didn't make sense to me...until it became useful to us as viewers.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But when she got sick and died, that would pretty much have the same effect. It just didn't make sense to me...until it became useful to us as viewers.


Even if she just gets really sick it has the same effect. But if she got enough so as to just give her cancer a few years later, an exposed dosimeter would ground her forever. It's like standing pat in Final Jeopardy when you are the low man, she's playing the odds.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> Even if she just gets really sick it has the same effect. But if she got enough so as to just give her cancer a few years later, an exposed dosimeter would ground her forever. It's like standing pat in Final Jeopardy when you are the low man, she's playing the odds.


But that's not the way the dosimeters worked (as they explained them). Green is OK, red is dead. (Which makes no sense, but again, it was for our benefit, not theirs.)


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Lots of fun alternate reality news headlines and stories in the opening!

Reagan still President. But of course, he's the 39th President.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

My take: if you've watched RDM's earlier show they featured a radiation detector which definitely showed intermediate stages (just different colors). If she came back red they would have sent her back on the next "shuttle" and she probably would prefer to die on the moon.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> My take: if you've watched RDM's earlier show they featured a radiation detector which definitely showed intermediate stages (just different colors). If she came back red they would have sent her back on the next "shuttle" and she probably would prefer to die on the moon.


But I strongly suspect you're putting more thought into it than Moore did. If you watched his public behavior during his earlier show, you know he has nothing but contempt for science & logic, and for people who expect his shows to make use of them. I'm sure the dosimeter was put in as a plot device to let us know she would have been OK if she'd stayed in the cave, and they didn't bother putting in the (five minutes' worth of) work to sell it logically beyond that.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But I strongly suspect you're putting more thought into it than Moore did. If you watched his public behavior during his earlier show, you know he has nothing but contempt for science & logic, and for people who expect his shows to make use of them. I'm sure the dosimeter was put in as a plot device to let us know she would have been OK if she'd stayed in the cave, and they didn't bother putting in the (five minutes' worth of) work to sell it logically beyond that.


You're still bitter about the ending. I get it. But I still can't forget the incredible first 3 seasons. Also not sure if his contempt was for science or the viewers or the plan. He certainly treated his scotches with more respect than the others.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> You're still bitter about the ending. I get it. But I still can't forget the incredible first 3 seasons. Also not sure if his contempt was for science or the viewers or the plan. He certainly treated his scotches with more respect than the others.


??? The ending? I started to become bitter during the first season, when it became clear that Moore has no respect for the S in SF.

It very quickly became clear to me that he lives entirely for the moment, and that nothing else matters to him.* I think he is better served by a show like this, where it is so tightly tied to reality to begin with, and thus he doesn't feel he can get away with just making everything up moment to moment (i.e., he has a real world that he has to adhere to). BG just pissed me off more and more as the show "progressed," whereas FAM hasn't really pissed me off at all (I was more amused by the flagrant use of the dosimeter as a pure plot device without any regard for how they really work or how they would actually be used).

His contempt for science was pretty clear from the way that he completely ignored it, e.g., putting in Spylons without giving the first thought to what they were or how they would physically function. His contempt for the viewers was expressed explicitly whenever they called him on his science miscues. The fact that "the plan" was a lie from the beginning was just icing on the cake of contempt....in this case, contempt for the basic rules of storytelling.

*I have long thought that he and J. Michael Straczynski, who has basically the opposite problem, would make a perfect team. For all his flaws, Moore does do great moments.


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> Lots of fun alternate reality news headlines and stories in the opening!
> 
> Reagan still President. But of course, he's the 39th President.


Right. He was elected in 1976 instead of Carter.

Prince Charles was allowed to marry Camilla instead of being forced to marry Diana, so no Will or Harry.

I didn't catch the John Lennon bit.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

PJO1966 said:


> Right. He was elected in 1976 instead of Carter.
> 
> Prince Charles was allowed to marry Camilla instead of being forced to marry Diana, so no Will or Harry.
> 
> I didn't catch the John Lennon bit.


welll... there could still be a Will and Harry. just different mother.


----------



## JonC24 (Jul 13, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Right. He was elected in 1976 instead of Carter.


And Reagan defeated Ted Kennedy who was elected in 1972.

Also I think I saw that the rescue of the hostages in Iran in 1980 was successful.

There's some additional videos you can watch that have more alternate history details.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

nataylor said:


> Enjoyed the first episode of season 2.


I did too. Was a bit startled by the time jump based on how S1 ended, but it seems to have worked well. I liked the montage at the beginning which showed that some events happened as it did in real life and others didn't. That was kind of fun. It'll be interesting to see where this goes. Glad they kept the "family drama" out of it for the most part (though I do think they've set up a few plot lines around it).


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

trainman said:


> PUT A (fake) BEATLES SONG FROM THEIR 1984 REUNION ALBUM ON THE SHOW'S SOUNDTRACK THIS SEASON, YOU COWARDS!


Heck, they could use "Free as a Bird" for that. Doesn't even have to be fake!


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

JonC24 said:


> There's some additional videos you can watch that have more alternate history details.


The 1978 Academy Awards news clip was particularly funny.


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> The 1978 Academy Awards news clip was particularly funny.


Oh! I missed that-what happened?

I was bummed that the USA didn't beat the USSR at the Olympics (Hockey). It happened on my birthday (today) and was always a cool thing I liked to talk about happening on my birthday!


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Close Encounters of the Third Kind swept the awards. (Best picture, Best Actor and 10 other awards) Space race was cited as the contributing factor.

Star Wars was shut out with only 2. Makes me wonder if RDM is not fond of that Galaxy Far, Far Away. (but they still saw fit to name the Strategic Defense Initiative after it) But it could also mean that without a Watergate or a Vietnam War preceding it, SW wouldn't have taken off like it did.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Season 2, Episode 2:

The dosimeters still don’t make sense.

And why the heck is Ed sending Gordo back? He has to know that’ll be a disaster.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

nataylor said:


> And why the heck is Ed sending Gordo back? He has to know that'll be a disaster.


I just finished and was coming here to say the same thing.

But I guess that's exactly where they want the story line to go. I'm guessing Gordo never makes it back. Because some disaster.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nataylor said:


> And why the heck is Ed sending Gordo back? He has to know that'll be a disaster.


I guess his personal loyalty outweighs his loyalty to the program? Because he seems to feel sending him back (i.e., giving him something to live for) is the only thing that will save him.


----------



## Allanon (Nov 2, 2005)

nataylor said:


> And why the heck is Ed sending Gordo back? He has to know that'll be a disaster.


I think Ed is giving Gordo a redo, the situation on the station is different with it being a lot larger and more people so the chance of him cracking due to isolation is less.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Allanon said:


> I think Ed is giving Gordo a redo, the situation on the station is different with it being a lot larger and more people so the chance of him cracking due to isolation is less.


And, of course, nothing could go wrong.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I guess we are heading to the classic "redemption" trope we see over and over again on TV. Gordo is about as low as a person can go. He's a drunk, his ex is highly successful, famous and high profile. His sons seem to be moving in the right direction and while he's proud, he sees that his own situation is slipping away. And Ed sees that. So he'll put him back in space, and of course he'll screw up and eventually redeem himself. I guess the trope if done well can still work. We'll see.

BTW, ATV+, you're killing me!! I watched about 15 minutes of this, stopped the episode, came back to it later in the day, and even though I wanted to RESUME, it started from the beginning! WTF! Watching using Roku. Maybe it's a device thing, I don't know. I had similar issues with the Long Way... series with Ewan MacGregor and with The Morning Show. I'd be pissed if I was actually paying for the service, but since I'm not, I'll just complain about it


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

While the motivation for Ed assigning Gordo to the mission may be suspect, Gordo physically would not qualify as he is portrayed at the moment. Not sure what the timeline is for the mission, but if its anything less than a year there is just no way.

Now Ed's motivations in making crew assignments may be called into question since the young hotshot got passed over again for a mission. Ed putting Gordo and Danielle on the same mission may allow Gordo to "make things right" allowing Gordo to overcome his regrets and past failure. Who doesn't like a redemption arc? Oh, wait... Yeah this will not end well.

And Tracy missing SIMs? Unless her travels were agency related, that is the fastest way to get de-assigned to a mission. <- Foreshadowing to something going wrong and Tracy isnt prepared to react?

I really felt for Molly. She did what was right, likely giving herself a fatal dose of radiation, for a fellow astronaut who decided to walk away. 

I was surprised that they used the Battlestar "swapping radiation badges to keep flying" beat. It was too obvious.

Can anyone confirm that they are doing any filming @ JSC? the exterior shot of Molly and Gordo at the end looked just like an area outside of MCC-H.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Win Joy Jr said:


> ...I really felt for Molly. She did what was right, likely giving herself a fatal dose of radiation, for a fellow astronaut who decided to walk away...


I don't because you really can't blame him at all. Only having a few years to live, I would do the very same thing.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Bierboy said:


> I don't because you really can't blame him at all. Only having a few years to live, I would do the very same thing.


Quitter!!!


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> I guess we are heading to the classic "redemption" trope we see over and over again on TV. Gordo is about as low as a person can go. He's a drunk, his ex is highly successful, famous and high profile. His sons seem to be moving in the right direction and while he's proud, he sees that his own situation is slipping away. And Ed sees that. So he'll put him back in space, and of course he'll screw up and eventually redeem himself. I guess the trope if done well can still work. We'll see.
> 
> BTW, ATV+, you're killing me!! I watched about 15 minutes of this, stopped the episode, came back to it later in the day, and even though I wanted to RESUME, it started from the beginning! WTF! Watching using Roku. Maybe it's a device thing, I don't know. I had similar issues with the Long Way... series with Ewan MacGregor and with The Morning Show. I'd be pissed if I was actually paying for the service, but since I'm not, I'll just complain about it


I also use a Roku (basement tv has an old AppleTV but I never use that one). I've found the ATV+ app/channel quite annoying (relative to, say, Netflix and Prime). I've run into the issue you saw with resume going back to start, and I also find it very slow to load.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Win Joy Jr said:


> While the motivation for Ed assigning Gordo to the mission may be suspect, Gordo physically would not qualify as he is portrayed at the moment. Not sure what the timeline is for the mission, but if its anything less than a year there is just no way.
> 
> Now Ed's motivations in making crew assignments may be called into question since the young hotshot got passed over again for a mission. Ed putting Gordo and Danielle on the same mission may allow Gordo to "make things right" allowing Gordo to overcome his regrets and past failure. Who doesn't like a redemption arc? Oh, wait... Yeah this will not end well.
> 
> ...


But it's not real life; it's a TV show  He'll switch to diet coke, shed the fat-suit, get a hair cut, stop re-telling the same stories/jokes. Is Tracy supposed to be going up? I suspect (if she is) that *she* will be the one to screw up and he will play the hero.

Molly did what was right? No way. If she had acted immediately she would have limited exposure for both of them and might have actually saved them both. But I'm not here to judge that part. Once the storm was upon them she should have stayed safe. Yes, that would surely mean that Wubbo would be a goner, but her actions resulted in an additional mission member being compromised. Not only did she put herself at risk but she also increased the risk factor for all remaining mission members.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

So... what are the odds that the Soviet/American hand shake in space actually happens?


----------



## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

I suppose the 1975 Apollo-Soyuz mission never happened in this timeline, which makes sense.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

spear said:


> I suppose the 1975 Apollo-Soyuz mission never happened in this timeline, which makes sense.


sure.. This proposed mission is supposed to be the alternate reality version.. But will it actually happen?


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Put me in the "Ed is stupid for putting Gordo on the mission" camp.

It's one thing to do it for Danielle (even though her previous status wasn't made clear) but Gordo is not up to both psychologically and physically.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I really felt for Molly. She did what was right, likely giving herself a fatal dose of radiation, for a fellow astronaut who decided to walk away.


He got 280 REM, which is only sometimes fatal. She would have gotten considerably less, given that his exposure was significantly longer. Apparently she didn't get enough to even show symptoms, since she seems to be getting away with it as far as the flight surgeons go. I'm guessing her exposure was at the "cancer some day" level.



Win Joy Jr said:


> I was surprised that they used the Battlestar "swapping radiation badges to keep flying" beat. It was too obvious.


It wasn't obvious enough for some people here on TCF.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Why would you (Win Joy Jr) say here exposure was "considerably less"? She only went out right as the storm hit. I suppose his body draped over her back shielded her -- is that what you meant?

And, yes, Ed should be fired for putting a middle-aged, overweight, depressed drunk on a mission. Danielle should have slugged him when he announced it.

But, hey, it's a scripted TV show, not a documentary (I know you're all thinking documentaries are most definitely scripted).


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

I'm just surprised either astronaut isn't showing more symptoms. 280 REM is definitely in the "definitely going to show symptoms of radiation sickness" range.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

I thought Molly was showing symptoms...a little wobbly when she was walking if I recall.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> I thought Molly was showing symptoms...a little wobbly when she was walking if I recall.


I mean "unable to hide" symptoms like sunburn, puking, and the like.

280 REM will also result in a lot of hair loss.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

wprager said:


> Why would you (Win Joy Jr) say here exposure was "considerably less"? She only went out right as the storm hit. I suppose his body draped over her back shielded her -- is that what you meant?
> 
> And, yes, Ed should be fired for putting a middle-aged, overweight, depressed drunk on a mission. Danielle should have slugged him when he announced it.
> 
> But, hey, it's a scripted TV show, not a documentary (I know you're all thinking documentaries are most definitely scripted).


I didn't say that.


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> I thought Molly was showing symptoms...a little wobbly when she was walking if I recall.


And she is avoiding the light-wearing sunglasses all the time-the light seemed to bother her tremendously upon returning to Earth-I think she's going to go blind ...just a thought, not a spoiler..


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Regina said:


> And she is avoiding the light-wearing sunglasses all the time


That's not exactly uncommon with the pilot crowd.


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> That's not exactly uncommon with the pilot crowd.


I know, but they are showing her photophobia an awful lot-I think it's leading to something-mark my words!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I didn't say that.


Oops, sorry. That would be ej42137.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

too much human drama... not enough space drama!!


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

There was some seriously good acting when Ed found out his daughter wanted to go to Annapolis. Incredible scene.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> too much human drama... not enough space drama!!


Yeah, that was my complaint about the series last year (and the similar Netflix series). I don't mind a little bit of that, but this whole episode was that. There's so much drama to be had without all of that. Hopefully moving forward they got most of this out of way and this episode just was setting up something that comes later.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> Yeah, that was my complaint about the series last year (and the similar Netflix series). I don't mind a little bit of that, but this whole episode was that.


It's not that I hate character development. I actually appreciate it, especially in sci-fi. But I despise the cliches and tropes that accompany the human drama parts. Shane's death in season one was telegraphed way in advance. And the forthcoming US/USSR confrontation on the moon won't hold a candle to the Traci/Gordon dust-up. (strange that neither has addressed their alcoholisms)


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Is Tracy becoming Gordo or has she always been like that but tempered because of the kids?

Who else saw the red light and said "Cylon!"?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Is Tracy becoming Gordo or has she always been like that but tempered because of the kids?


Not at all.

Gordo is a working-class celebrity drunk. Tracy is becoming a Hollywood celebrity drunk.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Tracy is becoming a Hollywood celebrity drunk.


When I saw Tracy take a morning swig from the Michelob on the nightstand, I could almost taste that in my mouth.










Some parts of the 80s I don't miss.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

What, no deepfake Pat Sajak making a quip about the space program?

(I'm not familiar enough with identifying "Wheel of Fortune" from 15-second clips to know if that really was an episode it purported to be -- a 1983 episode from the syndicated version -- but it did look correct.)


----------



## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

bored with season 2, I'm done. and I really liked season 1


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

tivoknucklehead said:


> bored with season 2, I'm done. and I really liked season 1


I enjoy the character development, but geez, get back to space already!


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I know this is "alternate reality", but I really was worried Tracy's mission on Challenger was going to blow up.

They are really gonna dig up an old Apollo command module and Saturn for the Soviet handshake mission?

Will we see the immigrant engineer working at NASA? I'm sure eventually we will. And she'll probably save the day in some sort of "Apollo 13" type of deal.

Will Gordo's incident over the Gulf get him grounded?


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## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> I know this is "alternate reality", but I really was worried Tracy's mission on Challenger was going to blow up.


She was on Discovery, right? Although it did cross my mind as well.


> Will Gordo's incident over the Gulf get him grounded?


I think that was more Ed's fault.


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Yeah, Ed egged on Gordo to "play" and "man up" and he "killed" Ed - then Ed's plane caught on fire when they were showing off for each other and Ed had to eject.

That's on Ed.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

I liked that ejection scene, but so much else about that T-38 scene was weird. The aircraft keep shifting between a reasonably good T-38 model, and then an odd, nonexistent single seat T-38 with an odd canopy design apparently made to conceal that some scenes were filmed with the actors sitting in the back seat. Odd, since they usually are better about that sort of thing. 

That, and did someone say “find me an actress that looks kind of like Sally Ride but put an over-the-top Sally Ride-like wig on her”?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> I liked that ejection scene, but so much else about that T-38 scene was weird. The aircraft keep shifting between a reasonably good T-38 model, and then an odd, nonexistent single seat T-38 with an odd canopy design apparently made to conceal that some scenes were filmed with the actors sitting in the back seat. Odd, since they usually are better about that sort of thing.
> 
> That, and did someone say "find me an actress that looks kind of like Sally Ride but put an over-the-top Sally Ride-like wig on her"?


I didn't notice the weirdness about the T-38, but of course I wouldn't have noticed the difference between a T-38 and a Model T! I bet most of the audience wouldn't either (and this being alternate reality, maybe it doesn't matter, that was what was intended?).

I noticed the Sally Ride thing as well. And I also kind of half expected something to happen to Challenger as well.

I too am getting tired of the melodrama this year, but there was quite a bit of it during the 1st season as well. I was kind of hoping they would stray away from it a bit more. Let's get to space already!


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I didn't notice the weirdness about the T-38, but of course I wouldn't have noticed the difference between a T-38 and a Model T!


The T-38 Talon is a trainer aircraft. It's supposed to have two seats.



kaszeta said:


> but so much else about that T-38 scene was weird. The aircraft keep shifting between a reasonably good T-38 model, and then an odd, nonexistent single seat T-38 with an odd canopy design


There were a few instances when NASA flew F-5s. Maybe that's what they were intending to show. And the canopy reminded me of the F-20 Tigershark, which is doable in this timeline.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> The T-38 Talon is a trainer aircraft. It's supposed to have two seats.
> 
> There were a few instances when NASA flew F-5s. Maybe that's what they were intending to show. And the canopy reminded me of the F-20 Tigershark, which is doable in this timeline.


And of course it's all fiction  Maybe the T-38 in this alternate history is exactly what they showed? After all, the Russians wound up beating us to the moon in this world.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Saturn_V said:


> There were a few instances when NASA flew F-5s. Maybe that's what they were intending to show. And the canopy reminded me of the F-20 Tigershark, which is doable in this timeline.


Except that you can read "Air Force T-38A" off the side of the plane. Even in the shots with the weird cockpit and single seat (the dogfight CGI shows the correct double cockpit)


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

One of my earlier comments they actually referenced.... It was weird in the sunrise scene in S2E01 that the astronauts had a mix of Apollo Era A7LB and modern Shuttle-Era EVA suits... but in this episode they commented (perhaps jokingly) that they could give Gordo an A7LB if he wanted...

And they have to have something like the A7LB still around anyways if they are planning an Apollo launch. Although I'm shocked in 1983 that they still have flight-capable hardware.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I have a request for those watching new episodes as they become available.

Can the first person who posts about a new episode please preface their post with a spoiler announcement for that episode, e.g.

*SPOILERS for Season X Episode Y "Episode Title" start here
*
I have just started watching the show and would love to read along in the thread as I make my way through season one, but of course I can't because there is no obvious place that discussion of a successive episode begins. For series like this one that release new episodes weekly, there is no reason we can't announce spoilers for new episodes, same as we used to do when we made individual threads for weekly shows. It would be nice to be able to read along with the discussion as I get caught up, instead of having to stay out of the thread for two full seasons.

(I think this is a convention we should adopt in all series threads in NP, actually, but let's start small, here. One small step, as it were.)

Thank you!


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Spoilers for "The Weight" (Episode 6)
Ahem...Molly Cobb is having eye issues...CALLED IT! But of course, she's covering for it...
Tracy really is a functioning alcoholic!
I didn't think that Ed was lost at sea...good Lord!
I am a huge Peanuts fan so I love the Linus patch!
Michael Dorman is a great actor! I looked him up on IMDB and he is from New Zealand...he does a great accent too!
Ellen....GET SOME! YES!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Wasn't a fan of Ellen hooking up with her ex. Some would call that cheating but, of course, gay characters are usually promiscuous - what is this, the 80s?

Sarah should have been suspended immediately instead of being given additional duties.

And reprimand the guy making the ethanol and take away his equipment.

If you can't last 6 months without a smoke or a drink there are about 100 million other people to draw from for the astronaut programm.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

I'm trying to figure out how the guy made that much drinkable hooch without it becoming a problem, both from the contraband side, and from the "actually fermenting and distilling ethanol takes either a lot of energy, a lot of wasted air, or both".


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I loved that they actually played The Weight


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I'm confused.. I thought Gordo had the problem with his jet and had to punch out. Did I mis remember? Or did Ed punch out too for some reason?

Tracy is a mess.. Gorodo is too.. But he is trying to get back on track. Tracy's job does seem like grunt work. Not so fitting to her "glamorous' status.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> I'm confused.. I thought Gordo had the problem with his jet and had to punch out. Did I mis remember? Or did Ed punch out too for some reason?
> 
> Tracy is a mess.. Gorodo is too.. But he is trying to get back on track. Tracy's job does seem like grunt work. Not so fitting to her "glamorous' status.


Gordo won the dogfight then Ed's engine caught on fire and Ed had to eject.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

ok... For some reason I thought Gordo had the troubles.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

wprager said:


> Wasn't a fan of Ellen hooking up with her ex. Some would call that cheating but, of course, gay characters are usually promiscuous - what is this, the 80s?
> 
> Sarah should have been suspended immediately instead of being given additional duties.
> 
> ...


On the last comment, remember that she's the "celebrity" astronaut, and the idea of putting her in space is to garner attention for the space program, and with attention comes money. Sure there are a lot of people they could have put up there, but not one as famous as her. I'm glad she was put in her place though.

I think it's more egregious putting Gordo back in space and he's kind of proving it. There's no reason except for his friendship with Ed. But others in NASA should see he's not fit to go up.

But of course this is fiction, and it makes for more interesting stories, and these are our main characters. Never mind that it doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> On the last comment, remember that she's the "celebrity" astronaut, and the idea of putting her in space is to garner attention for the space program, and with attention comes money. Sure there are a lot of people they could have put up there, but not one as famous as her. I'm glad she was put in her place though.


And sending her back would be a logistical nightmare...the expense of two unscheduled trips to/from the moon, plus having to get a replacement trained and ready to launch. No, they're stuck with her.


Steveknj said:


> I think it's more egregious putting Gordo back in space and he's kind of proving it. There's no reason except for his friendship with Ed. But others in NASA should see he's not fit to go up.


I suspect, though, they're headed in the opposite direction...he's the one who will work out, and Ed will be the disaster.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And sending her back would be a logistical nightmare...the expense of two unscheduled trips to/from the moon, plus having to get a replacement trained and ready to launch. No, they're stuck with her.
> 
> I suspect, though, they're headed in the opposite direction...he's the one who will work out, and Ed will be the disaster.


Agree. And really Ed should not be going back up either. Plus they are obviously going to show (because it's TV after all) that they got their "Stevens'" backwards and that Gordo is going to turn out more fit than his ex. But as it stands, Gordo shouldn't be going back either


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

I have to keep telling myself “It’s a fictionalization account of an alternate history”.

Ed punching out would have required a grounding for a Heath evaluation that would have had him removed from the first flight of Pathfinder (Is that the vehicle name?).

As far as having spare hardware laying around? That’s how they did Apollo/Soyuz in the first place. Ever been to the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum on the National Mall? The Skylab they have on display was the flight backup hardware.

I was literally screaming about the “giving them the tour”. Part of training would be on ground based mock-ups. I had the opportunity a few years ago of visiting the ISS training facility at JSC.

And the new engineer in the gallery of the Flight Control Room? Been there, done that.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I was not suggesting that Tracy would be sent back. No, she would still be doing her schmoozing with Johnny and Ed, and I suppose put her on "KP" or other unglamorous (but not safety-conscious) details. But to keep her flying? Not until she submits to (and passes) a daily urine and breathalyzer test.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

wprager said:


> I was not suggesting that Tracy would be sent back. No, she would still be doing her schmoozing with Johnny and Ed, and I suppose put her on "KP" or other unglamorous (but not safety-conscious) details. But to keep her flying? Not until she submits to (and passes) a daily urine and breathalyzer test.


Do they even have the capability on base to do that kind of testing?
I mean we're still talking circa 1979 or so.
The type of machinery for that testing was fairly heavy.
(I may have been involved in moving some of those machines.)


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

JYoung said:


> Do they even have the capability on base to do that kind of testing?
> I mean we're still talking circa 1979 or so.
> The type of machinery for that testing was fairly heavy.
> (I may have been involved in moving some of those machines.)


Yes, it's basically just a piece of paper like a litmus test. The Russians invented it in this reality.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Aren't they now in the early 80s?

EDIT: Yep, 1983: Timeline


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Plus the standard walk-a-line, touch-fingertip-to-nose would do in a pinch


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

wprager said:


> Plus the standard walk-a-line, touch-fingertip-to-nose would do in a pinch


Is that possible in zero gravity? 

I'm kidding, I know that inside the ship there's "gravity"


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Random User 7 said:


> Yes, it's basically just a piece of paper like a litmus test. The Russians invented it in this reality.





wprager said:


> Aren't they now in the early 80s?
> 
> EDIT: Yep, 1983: Timeline


Back in that time, that was true for spot qualitative (Positive/negative) urine tests.
Mostly used in pregnancy tests and quick urine analysis basic chemical type tests.

Quantitative (how much) testing for drugs (or even other things, such as normal body chemistry, hormone levels, or antibody levels) in blood or urine required larger testing machines for analysis.

These machines were at minimum, good size counter top units with several being large stand alone machines.

(My first after school job involved prepping specimens for these machines and I had to supervise collections for law enforcement and job applications more than once.)

So, "your urine tested positive for alcohol" isn't enough as they could say, "i just had one drink but I wasn't drunk."

Which why prosecutors get tests that have blood alcohol levels.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> Is that possible in zero gravity?
> 
> I'm kidding, I know that inside the ship there's "gravity"


It's not zero.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> Is that possible in zero gravity?
> 
> I'm kidding, I know that inside the ship there's "gravity"


There's gravity on the moon.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

wprager said:


> It's not zero.





wprager said:


> There's gravity on the moon.


It was a joke, son


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Yes, gravity on the moon. There just appears to be MORE gravity when they're inside the base.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> Yes, gravity on the moon. There just appears to be MORE gravity when they're inside the base.


They occasionally try, but it's hard to accurately simulate low-gravity for more than a few moments...


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Steveknj said:


> Is that possible in zero gravity?
> 
> I'm kidding, I know that inside the ship there's "gravity"


Your remark confused me until I realized you're calling the base a "ship". Remember when the Eagle landed and became Tranquility Base?


----------



## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> They occasionally try, but it's hard to accurately simulate low-gravity for more than a few moments...


Watch "Away". They managed it in the moon sleeves very well. In the Expanse they at least make liquids pour slower when on Luna. It's doable. They just choose not to bother.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> Your remark confused me until I realized you're calling the base a "ship". Remember when the Eagle landed and became Tranquility Base?


And I was completely joking!!


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

PJO1966 said:


> It's doable. They just choose not to bother.


Hard to do wire work in a practical conventionally lit set. The Expanse does it and it's not altogether convincing. (Alex Kamal and the zero g beer scene)

I'm betting all the lunar surface shots are wire-assisted to simulate the 1/6 G.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Saturn_V said:


> Hard to do wire work in a practical conventionally lit set. The Expanse does it and it's not altogether convincing. (Alex Kamal and the zero g beer scene)
> 
> I'm betting all the lunar surface shots are wire-assisted to simulate the 1/6 G.


Yeah, walking through the Base should actually look a lot like walking on the surface: normal walking is difficult since you tend to "bound" a lot. A lot of the real astronauts, particularly Harrison Schmidt, mentioned that normal walking was really, really hard unless you were carrying something heavy to hold you down, usually it was the bounding hops like they show. But hard to film this.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

**Spoilers for 3/26/2021 episode**

I liked this episode a lot. Stayed away from MOST of the melodrama (except for the lesbian woman declaring to her husband that she needs to divorce him to get back with her old lover, and Gordo meeting with ex-wife's husband and telling him that he's going to win her back). I liked the interplay between the Russians and Americans and there was definitely a tenseness about it. Loved how the two leads from both groups met at the bar and figured out how to make docking work without upsetting either side. I don't recall how it was done originally, but I'd bet it was similar.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Something called "11:59 Club" in 1983 -- I would have guessed a punk/goth club, not a jazz piano bar with drink coasters.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

trainman said:


> Something called "11:59 Club" in 1983 -- I would have guessed a punk/goth club, not a jazz piano bar with drink coasters.


Punk goth may not have been popular until the 90s in this reality.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I've finished season one and am ready to get into season two this weekend. Hopefully I'll be caught up before the final season two episode debuts and can start following along in real-time.

I enjoyed the first season although I think it had a little trouble deciding whether to be a melodramatic docudrama about space program what-ifs, or the 2020's version of a 90's syndicated sci-fi show like Ronald Moore used to work on. I do get the challenge. You can't have a show set in and around the space program without spending time in space, but unless every episode is going to leap forward 6-12 months (obviously the show is not averse to that), there's a limited amount of space stuff you can do without just turning it into Star Trek-level sci-fi. I'm not sure the first season quite managed it in either direction, but it didn't get too bogged down on earth or too destroy-disbelief in space to hurt too much. I'm looking forward to getting started on season two.

One other general comment: I spent most of the first season thinking the character work was kind of a weakness of the show but by the end found it to a be strength. Most of the characters were not likable most of the time and that caused me some difficulty in getting into the show. I was all set to love Karen, for example, because she is so beautiful, but for most of the season she was almost the worst person of any of them. Gordo was the charming rogue archetype without the charm, Ed was a robotic martinet, Tracy was weak; on and on. Curiously, the only character I liked much was the gruff Deke, and I didn't even like him at the end for his reaction to Ellen coming out to him (even if it was probably appropriate for the time). (I also liked Von Braun, and he turned out to be a Nazi.) But to my surprise, I had turned the corner on everyone (Deke the opposite way) by the end of the season, and that was thanks to deliberate character work put into the plot on each one's behalf. Karen learns there's a real person inside of her, Tracy learns there's a strong person inside of her, Gordo learns there's a sensitive person inside of him, Molly learns there's a non-self-destructive person inside of her, Ed learns... well, Ed didn't change much. And again, I didn't much care for Deke's heel turn at the end, though I got it (and he got his). But I was rooting for almost everyone by the last episode, and that was not a place I expected to end up given where it started. Good stuff.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Random User 7 said:


> Punk goth may not have been popular until the 90s in this reality.


Granted, I don't think there's been any Joy Division or Bauhaus on the soundtrack, but as far as I can tell, all music in the "For All Mankind" reality is the same as music in our reality... that's been one of my criticisms of the show! (If they do something music-related with the fact that John Lennon is still alive, all will be forgiven.)


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I saw Charlie Schlatter's name in the credits. IMDB lists the character as Paul Michaels, but I don't know who that is within the show. Anyone know? I had no idea he was still an actor. I hadn't seen his name in anything since the 80's or 90's.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> I saw Charlie Schlatter's name in the credits. IMDB lists the character as Paul Michaels, but I don't know who that is within the show. Anyone know? I had no idea he was still an actor. I hadn't seen his name in anything since the 80's or 90's.


He's one of the news anchors.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Thanks. That was bugging me.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Finished S02E01. Was very happy to see they promoted Sonya Walger (Molly) to the main cast. I really like her. Then was very unhappy to see that it was apparently to give her a death arc.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I'm generally not one for bingeing, but it was a slow weekend so I watched the first four episodes of season two and am nearly caught up. Really confident start to the season and I am enjoying it very much. I also tentatively read through the comments here for those episodes and am kind of surprised at the "get back to space" sentiments. The character work being done on earth this season is a lot more compelling (and more fun) than much of what we saw last season. Also, there is clearly a ton of space stuff about to come up; these first episodes have been busy setting a lot of things in motion. And the show can't plausibly (even in the context of its own reality) have a space crisis each week, so what people are really asking for is more bottle episodes like "Hi Bob", which from what I can tell was not a well-liked episode in season one. So anyway, even by episode four there's a lot of space action being telegraphed; I imagine and hope it has started to play out by episode six which has now debuted. I guess I'll find out in the next few days as I have time to watch more.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> I'm generally not one for bingeing, but it was a slow weekend so I watched the first four episodes of season two and am nearly caught up. Really confident start to the season and I am enjoying it very much. I also tentatively read through the comments here for those episodes and am kind of surprised at the "get back to space" sentiments. The character work being done on earth this season is a lot more compelling (and more fun) than much of what we saw last season. Also, there is clearly a ton of space stuff about to come up; these first episodes have been busy setting a lot of things in motion. And the show can't plausibly (even in the context of its own reality) have a space crisis each week, so what people are really asking for is more bottle episodes like "Hi Bob", which from what I can tell was not a well-liked episode in season one. So anyway, even by episode four there's a lot of space action being telegraphed; I imagine and hope it has started to play out by episode six which has now debuted. I guess I'll find out in the next few days as I have time to watch more.


To each their own of course, but I find the character work is pretty boiler plate and not that interesting. Sure, you need some of it because otherwise they'd be wooden figures that we wouldn't care anything about. But, there's nothing all that interesting or compelling about it. It's just the usual stuff you seen in every show. The one character story that I've found compelling is the story of the Mexican refugee who's family makes it here and the girl works her way up through the system. Sadly that's been mostly a minor story line (yet it's how they opened the series). The rest, is normal marital problems, infidelity, drinking, closeted gay characters, and so forth. Nothing wrong with it, but, we've seen it all before. The really interesting part of the show is the "space stuff", the alternate timeline, the inter-politics of it all and so forth. I think that's what most of us hope to see.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> The rest, is normal marital problems, infidelity, drinking, closeted gay characters, and so forth. Nothing wrong with it, but, we've seen it all before. The really interesting part of the show is the "space stuff", the alternate timeline, the inter-politics of it all and so forth. I think that's what most of us hope to see.


The "human interpersonal drama" is better this season than last, so it's not so much boilerplate to me. My favorite part of S1 was Karen Baldwin and Wayne Cobb finding and supporting each other as "astronaut wives" This season my favorite is the Apollo-Soyuz teams coming together in the last episode. The entire scene between Dani and cosmonaut talking about Laika was very well done.

Mildly interested in the Aleida and Kelly stories. Not at all interested in the Karen/Ed and the Tracy/Gordo sagas. (pointing to a marriage "flip" IMHO)

The space drama will come of it's own accord. But it's feeling like GoT in a lot of ways, where the major action setpieces pop up in the penultimate and final episodes.

The only parts of the alternate history that are tripping me up are the pop culture landmarks; e.g. Star Trek TWOK in 83' instead of 82, and Ghostbusters showing up before 84'. I don't know if that's intentional or just sloppy research and writing.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

We were watching that scene with our dog -- Laika -- snoring away at the end of the bed!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> We were watching that scene with our dog -- Laika -- snoring away at the end of the bed!
> View attachment 58706


Sleeping on duty?!?

SHIP HER OFF INTO SPACE!


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> The only parts of the alternate history that are tripping me up are the pop culture landmarks; e.g. Star Trek TWOK in 83' instead of 82, and Ghostbusters showing up before 84'. I don't know if that's intentional or just sloppy research and writing.


I got a big laugh out of Karen spitefully spoiling the end of TWOK for Ed.

I am 100% confident that these are deliberate changes. That's the kind of stuff that's in there to reward the attentive viewer who is interested in the small ways this reality differs from ours in addition to the glossy big ones.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I'm a little surprised with all the Apollo-Soyuz Soyuz-Apollo collaboration going on that the fact the Soviets bugged Jamestown has just faded into the background.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

wprager said:


> If you can't last 6 months without a smoke or a drink there are about 100 million other people to draw from for the astronaut programm.





kaszeta said:


> I'm trying to figure out how the guy made that much drinkable hooch without it becoming a problem, both from the contraband side...


Granted it was "ten years" ago, but Ed had a bottle of commercial liquor with him on Jamestown.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

cmontyburns said:


> I got a big laugh out of Karen spitefully spoiling the end of TWOK for Ed.
> 
> I am 100% confident that these are deliberate changes. That's the kind of stuff that's in there to reward the attentive viewer who is interested in the small ways this reality differs from ours in addition to the glossy big ones.


It wasn't the end, it was a new beginning.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> Not at all interested in the Karen/Ed and the Tracy/Gordo sagas. (pointing to a marriage "flip" IMHO)


They're heavily foreshadowing a "Mrs Robinson" situation with Gordo's son and Karen, IMHO.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Oh, I don’t think that at all.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

PJO1966 said:


> They're heavily foreshadowing a "Mrs Robinson" situation with Gordo's son and Karen, IMHO.


I was waiting for that last episode.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

They have a common bond through Shane, which I think is all we are seeing here. Plus the kid is terrified of Ed, who would ruin his military career and his life in a half-second if anything ever happened with Karen. I would be stunned if the show goes there.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> They have a common bond through Shane, which I think is all we are seeing here. Plus the kid is terrified of Ed, who would ruin his military career and his life in a half-second if anything ever happened with Karen. I would be stunned if the show goes there.


It seems to me the show is going somewhere. I doubt they will actually hook up, but I suspect something is going to happen.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It seems to me the show is going somewhere. I doubt they will actually hook up, but I suspect something is going to happen.


The series plan has been for each season to take place in a different decade. If they stick to that, our main cast is going to have to age out unless the plan is for them to spend half their time in the hair & makeup department. Newer, younger characters have to come in. That's why we spent so much time last season setting up Aleida's story, I think, and it's why we are spending time this season getting to know Kelly and Danny. In 10 years they'll presumably be Navy pilots and prime candidates for the astronaut program in the third season.

I could be wrong, but I suspect all this is nothing more than what we saw with Aleida last season: giving these characters some introduction and backstory so they can become main characters later (or have the option to be). Any kind of entanglement with Karen would seem take the Danny character right of the board for that, unless it were some version of him eventually telling her he has a crush, and her telling him gently to get over it. I mean, she looks at him and sees Shane!


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

But I think Danny will kick off the impending rift between Ed and Karen. I'm just not certain it entails infidelity or a Mrs. Robinson scenario. 

A nation turns its lonely eyes to you. woo ooo hoo.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

They already have a rift. They need another reason? And we learned recently they separated after Shane's death. Going to bust them up again? It's all completely unnecessary and out of left field for the show.

I mean, we're all just talking about how we are reading the situation of course, so I'm in no position to say anyone is wrong. But I sure hope so. I would think a lot less of the show if it bothered with any of that.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

cmontyburns said:


> Going to bust them up again? It's all completely unnecessary and out of left field for the show.


The RL marriage failure rate for the Apollo-generation astronauts makes it very pertinent for the show. Marriages sticking together through the space race was the exception, not the rule.

Karen has a right to be mad at Ed imho. She gave her Pathfinder blessing and the first thing he did was crash his plane jerking around.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> The RL marriage failure rate for the Apollo-generation astronauts makes it very pertinent for the show. Marriages sticking together through the space race was the exception, not the rule.


But that's my point. The axis of the show is the hope and hardships that come from being in and around the space program. There is a ton of personal drama to be mined from that, none of which requires an affair with your dead kid's best friend. The affair part might justifiable; having it be one with Danny would be completely unnecessary.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

I never said there's going to be an affair.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I wouldn't put it past this show, which seems to love melodrama (and focuses on it a little too much), to have that affair. Even if it's just a one time thing. I don't think it's out of left field at all. I'm not saying I'd like it, but it wouldn't shock me if they went there.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I wouldn't put it this show, which seems to love melodrama (and focuses on it a little too much), to have that affair. Even if it's just a one time thing. I don't think it's out of left field at all. I'm not saying I'd like it, but it wouldn't shock me if they went there.


I don't think there will be an affair. I just think they're (the writers) going to toy with it, enough to create problems with Ed.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't at least a kiss they both felt guilty about. 

They've been dropping some not-at-all subtle hints that SOMEthing was coming.


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## jr461 (Jul 9, 2004)

PJO1966 said:


> I'd be very surprised if there wasn't at least a kiss they both felt guilty about.
> 
> They've been dropping some not-at-all subtle hints that SOMEthing was coming.


I agree they are hinting at something but I don't think it will be a Mrs. Robinson seduction. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite and something on only the kid's mind. My guess is that he will impulsively act on it and when he does she will be taken totally by surprise and aghast.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

By "Mrs Robinson" I was referring more to the older woman / younger man situation rather than her seducing him. Poor analogy.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jr461 said:


> I agree they are hinting at something but I don't think it will be a Mrs. Robinson seduction. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite and something on only the kid's mind. My guess is that he will impulsively act on it and when he does she will be taken totally by surprise and aghast.


*Spoilers from 4/2/2020 Episode*

Watched this morning and yeah, this happened. Unfortunately I got too much sun glare, and while I was able to make out the kiss, I couldn't see if the scene where she was making love to someone (I assumed it was Ed, and it was guilt sex, but I guess it could have been the kid). I'll rewatch later when I don't have that issue. Good episode though, lots happening in the "space" world. They introduced the Korean Airline story as a pretense for them taking back the moon claim from the Soviets.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Interesting that they were able to use actual Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw news footage in this episode -- of course, it winds up making the fake news coverage from other episodes (with actors playing anchors) even more obvious.

They did a really good job of matching NBC's 1983 graphics on the shot of "Sen. Jimmy Carter/(D) Georgia," to the point that I was actually confused for a split-second. "Wait, Carter wasn't a senator after he was president... _oh, right."_


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I guess Apocalypse Now was still in this reality


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> I guess Apocalypse Now was still in this reality


Yeah, that's one of those moments that's pretty cool. Until you think about it. 

(I'm always amazed at how tone-deaf song choices can be, like a certain politician who played a song at his rallies that is superficially "rah-rah USA" until you actually listen to the lyrics, which are a stinging rebuke.)


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Wasn’t expecting the KAL-007...


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Yeah, so I didn't know about KAL-007, but I had to look it up after I saw all the real footage.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yeah, that's one of those moments that's pretty cool. Until you think about it.
> 
> (I'm always amazed at how tone-deaf song choices can be, like a certain politician who played a song at his rallies that is superficially "rah-rah USA" until you actually listen to the lyrics, which are a stinging rebuke.)


You mean like the campaign to make Born to Run the state song of New Jersey at some point in the '80s? maybe they just never heard the line "Just can't wait to get out of this place"


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> *Spoilers from 4/2/2020 Episode*
> 
> Watched this morning and yeah, this happened. Unfortunately I got too much sun glare, and while I was able to make out the kiss, I couldn't see if the scene where she was making love to someone (I assumed it was Ed, and it was guilt sex, but I guess it could have been the kid). I'll rewatch later when I don't have that issue. Good episode though, lots happening in the "space" world. They introduced the Korean Airline story as a pretense for them taking back the moon claim from the Soviets.


It was definitely Ed she was sleeping with.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

PJO1966 said:


> It was definitely Ed she was sleeping with.


Yeah, the kid got her all hot and bothered, and Ed reaped the benefits.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

My wife was thoroughly disgusted (perhaps too strong a word, perhaps not) by that whole thing -- she definitely kissed him back for a while.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

She did indeed and she knew where that whole thing was going too.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Well, I gotta eat crow. I was dead wrong. I’m really disappointed they went there.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

cmontyburns said:


> Well, I gotta eat crow. I was dead wrong. I'm really disappointed they went there.


IMO they weren't exactly subtle that that's where they were going.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> Well, I gotta eat crow. I was dead wrong. I'm really disappointed they went there.


I am too. But not surprised by it. This is a pretty good series, but could be much better if they cut the unnecessary melodrama out of it. There was absolutely no reason they needed to go there.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

PJO1966 said:


> IMO they weren't exactly subtle that that's where they were going.


Even the episode blurb was pretty obvious:

For All Mankind Season 2, Episode 7 "Don't Be Cruel"
"Ellen is challenged by her new role. Margo's allegiances are put to the test. Karen explores new opportunities- personally and professionally"

The scene didn't bother me that much- but the "after-party" Karen and Ed had kinda did.


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

It sounds like, in this universe, the Challenger accident never happened as they caught the faulty O-Ring issue ahead of time.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

It's also revealed (in credits) that the Russian scientist that Dani spoke to in Star City was Sergei Korolov. (note the spelling- instead of Sergei Korolev) Which is the show explaining why Russians beat the US to the moon. Korolev died in '66 in RL timeline.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I am too. But not surprised by it. This is a pretty good series, but could be much better if they cut the unnecessary melodrama out of it. There was absolutely no reason they needed to go there.


Give it some time; I have no doubt this isn't the end of it.



TriBruin said:


> It sounds like, in this universe, the Challenger accident never happened as they caught the faulty O-Ring issue ahead of time.


Most definitely...there was no doubt about that.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

TriBruin said:


> It sounds like, in this universe, the Challenger accident never happened as they caught the faulty O-Ring issue ahead of time.


Since the show is still in 1983, and the Challenger explosion in our timeline was January 1986, I'd phrase this as "the Challenger accident is never going to happen (at least, not due to a faulty O-ring)."


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

And Buran stole a lot more technology than in our timeline. The real Buran didn't use solid rocket motors. 

And Buran is about 5-6 years ago in the show timeline, too.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

And now we see that "Jeopardy!" with Alex Trebek started (at least) a year earlier than it did in our timeline!


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

**** SPOILERS FOR S02E08 "And Here's To You" START HERE ***
*
Oh, Karen.

I listen to a podcast that does weekly episode discussions. After last week, when Karen kissed Danny, they made the point that there is a difference between a show having the confidence to let its characters make bad decisions, and the show itself making a bad decision. This show is one that has been so firmly in control of its characterization that the many bad choices the characters have made along the way have nearly always felt like (and proved to be) the former. The podcast hosts felt like this one one of the first cases where, at best, we couldn't be sure, but it sure felt like the latter. I felt it was such an obvious bad move for the show that I refused to interpret the obvious signs leading up to it to be what they were. Surely they weren't going to go there. It's a bad decision!

The show now having gone to the obvious next step, I still am in the camp of thinking this was a bad dramatic decision. We still have two episodes to learn why the show went there, but I can't see any payoff that will justify this method of getting there. It's not her having an affair, and it's not her having an affair with, effectively, a kid. It's her having an affair with her dead son's best friend! It is so uncomfortable that I just don't it being worth having done, no matter where it goes. Find some other way to get there.

That's too bad, because I really liked the rest of the episode. The scene with Tracy and Gordo smoking was gold. "Catch me if you can," Tracy says. Awesome. Great character. And the rehabilitation of Gordo has been handled really well. I'm glad her told her everything. I wish he had taken down the photo of Danielle with her broken arm, though.

Is Sally Ride going to quit?

It was obvious Aleida was going to call Bill "peanut" after Margo told him that story. I liked their scene at his house and that the show took the time to turn him into more of an actual person with the context around it and his hurt over twenty years of ridicule for what was a sacrifice on his part.

Who thinks Ellen is actually going to quit NASA? I'm guessing she is going to come out and let the chips fall where they may. The show has been good about acknowledging racism, misogyny, etc., and then letting its characters break those barriers.

Poignant scene with Molly in the jet, coming as close to the stars as she ever will again. Also badass. Another great character.

And all that without mentioning awkward Margo flirting, and shots fired on the moon!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> And all that without mentioning awkward Margo flirting, and shots fired on the moon!


Kinda stupid shots fired on the moon! But as you say earlier, the characters making bad decisions. But whose bad decision? The jarheads, or the Washington bureaucrats who sent them there? It's what happens when you send the military to do diplomats' jobs...when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

(It's also what happens when you're smart enough to bring along English language cheat sheets...and dumb enough to keep them in storage crates.)

You'd think both sides would have been smart enough to send people for their Cold War confrontation on the Moon who spoke the other's language. Well, no, actually, you wouldn't necessarily think that...


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

I just want to complain about how useless the missiles on Pathfinder are. Just a 100nm range? They’d only only work for things in the same orbit as Pathfinder. And if you blow up something in the same orbit, congratulations, you’re now in orbit with a bunch of debris.

It would make much more sense to have a ground-based system. In real life, the US started testing an anti-satellite missile that could be launched from an F-15 in 1984. Something like that would be so much more flexible than arming Pathfinder.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

100nm? Congratulations, you just blew yourself up.

Not a fan with the Karen/Danny hook up. Why??!

The bureaucrats who sent marines with guns to the moon also should have made it damn clear that you don't fire unless you are fired on. Bring enough so that you have numbers and use that as deterrent. With just 3 marines and 2 "reds" they only had a very simple majority -- that said, only one guy was reaching, so it was still 3 on maybe 1. They should have held back, weapons drawn, separate for positional advantage and wait until the danger is clear and present. 

Also, did they not have a sargeant or someone in command with them?


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

nataylor said:


> They'd only only work for things in the same orbit as Pathfinder. And if you blow up something in the same orbit, congratulations, you're now in orbit with a bunch of debris.


You heard me at your house when I screamed at the TV?



Spoiler



I am also getting the vibe that Dr. Ride is going to either quit the mission (doubtful) or if they get a directive to fire she may not comply and it appears that her position is needed to launch.



I also appreciate the character development between Aledia and Bill. What she did was a crap response to not being heard, but I think she will find that Bill


Spoiler



who will return to NASA


 will be more receptive to her inputs.

I thought Molly was going to consider punching out at the edge of space, I think facing loss of flying then loss of her sight is something she will not be able to deal with for a lifetime. And she has to be thinking that this will not be the first health crisis she will face.

I'm curious and have not seen a reference, but I am assuming that the shuttles remain in orbit during the various expeditions? Or are they just a cab dropping off one group, picking up the returning crew and heading home? If it's the former, I am assuming they are shutting the orbiter down? And as far as cargo, I know they rely on SeaDragon for heavy cargo, but did they have to sacrifice cargo capacity of the orbiter to make Lunar Insertion? And, if I recall my Orion specifications correctly they are supposed to be returning faster than Apollo, so could a legacy shuttle actually survive a re-entry on the direct return from lunar orbit without somehow slowing to re-enter earth orbit then deorbiting?

My wife told me last night to "Switch off 'Work Mode'" while watching.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

wprager said:


> Also, did they not have a sargeant or someone in command with them?


The marines were all aviators; they are officers and hence would outrank a sergeant. You are otherwise correct, they acted like careless idiots here.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> The marines were all aviators; they are officers and hence would outrank a sergeant. You are otherwise correct, they acted like careless idiots here.


Yeah I find it hard to believe that this would have gone down like this.

The Russians acted like idiots too, and you know they are probably qualified / experienced people as well.

The Russian guy from Season 1 certainly was.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

wprager said:


> Not a fan with the Karen/Danny hook up. Why??!


For all my grinching about this development, it did click into place from a character standpoint this episode.

Last decade, Karen was barely alive. Ed was off having his astronaut adventures and even Shane, with his troublemaking escapades with Danny, had an independent life. Karen's whole life was constrained to being at home worrying about both of them.

Everything changed when Shane died. She bought the bar, which gave her something that was just her own. They adopted Kelly, who lived at home, and Ed took a desk job and came home at night. It was all in balance -- everybody had their thing, and then everybody came home.

Now, she's staring at history repeating. Ed is off having adventures again, and Kelly is about to move away for school (military school, no less). Karen would still have the bar, but for all the time she spends there it might as well be her living room. She can hang more ferns and serve different parmesan cheese, but it's a static life all over again, while the other two get to be independent and she gets to hang back and worry about them.

She wants agency like they have, so she impulsively sells the bar. Who knows what that will lead to, but the uncertainty was the point. A hot younger guy wants her and she can have it, so she'll take that too. She's in charge of these decisions. She's being independent. (And oh boy does she use Danny. Straight up tells him she wanted it so she took it, patronizingly tells him, "You were great, sweetie", and then orders him to get out via the back door and call in sick tomorrow. Nobody is the boss of new Karen!)

So this is two seasons of character-building coming to a head, and it makes sense. I get the act. I just don't get why they decided to have it be with Danny. I assume that, too, will lead to something. But again, it's hard to see what the endpoint could be that could not have been arrived at via her having an affair with almost anyone else, including a different younger man. This one just made me cringe.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

One other thing I forgot to mention. The title of the episode, "Here's To You", could not have been a more obvious allusion to The Graduate. No blinders on my eyes this time around. I saw that and knew we were going to have to watch Karen and Danny sleep together.

(Also, in that movie, Ben marries Mrs. Robinson's daughter. Karen's got a daughter, Kelly, and she and Danny will be away at school together. Hmmm.)


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> (Also, in that movie, Ben marries Mrs. Robinson's daughter. Karen's got a daughter, Kelly, and she and Danny will be away at school together. Hmmm.)


Are they both going to Annapolis? I was under the impression that Danny was going to the Air Force Academy, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense since Ed is an alumni of Annapolis.

Even if they are both at the same Service Academy, Danny is at least one year ahead of Kelly so any relationship development would be in Season 3 (assuming another 10 year / decade time jump between seasons).


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

I totally enjoyed the “Gordo got his swagger back” arc. Ed being the guy in the O&C (Operations and Checkout) to finish suiting up Gordo and putting the helmet on was a great touch. I’m curious if Ed’s motivation was more concern for his friend or concern as the former Chief of the Astronaut Office who assigned Gordo to the flight. Maybe equal parts. Gordo opening up to Tracy about what happened and how that affected him and their marriage told her that the man she was married to is (maybe) back.

The Soviet Cosmonauts were not on the US claimed region of the lunar surface so I am not surprised that they did not have the translation cards attached to their suits.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Win Joy Jr said:


> The Soviet Cosmonauts were not on the US claimed region of the lunar surface so I am not surprised that they did not have the translation cards attached to their suits.


Well, they were building a facility literally within sight of the disputed American base, so if they weren't expecting some kind of confrontation then they are so stupid they should never have been allowed out of bed, much less on the Moon, much less on the Moon in a politically and militarily fraught situation.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

cmontyburns said:


> Who thinks Ellen is actually going to quit NASA? I'm guessing she is going to come out and let the chips fall where they may. The show has been good about acknowledging racism, misogyny, etc., and then letting its characters break those barriers.


I figured that she would tell the president that she would be honored to accept the position, "but here's the thing..."

She's going to come out to the president, but being that this is Reagan we're talking about (even an alt-history Reagan), it's probably not going to go over well.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

cmontyburns said:


> For all my grinching about this development, it did click into place from a character standpoint this episode...


I agree...don't quite understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> I agree (and with all your reasons)...so I don't quite understand the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

I guess since GoT most of us have gotten jaded. Sleeping with your dead son's best friend wouldn't raise GRRM's eyebrows.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Well, Danny's "I love you" reaction is a good reason as to why Karen shouldn't have done it.
She's the adult here and she should have handled things better.

When did marijuana start getting talked about as being helpful with glaucoma?
The 1980s?
Maybe Wayne can help out here.

Everyone on the crater ridge was exceedingly stupid.
Even if the translation card is in a crate (as opposed to a suit pocket), you indicate that one of the armed persons take a look first.

That did look like an accurate commlock though.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> For all my grinching about this development, it did click into place from a character standpoint this episode.
> 
> Last decade, Karen was barely alive. Ed was off having his astronaut adventures and even Shane, with his troublemaking escapades with Danny, had an independent life. Karen's whole life was constrained to being at home worrying about both of them.
> 
> ...


I absolutely get where Karen is in her life. But did it have to be the best friend of her dead son who's half her age? It just seems weird and wrong and out of character for this show. It could have been a co-worker in the bar, or someone from NASA, or heck the liquor salesman if all she was looking for was a fling. It just felt like they tried to build some artificial attachment that didn't need to be there and I guess was kinda strange.

Loved the adopted daughter finding her natural father, and her learning a little about the family by talking to her half sister. That was done well. I don't get how shooting a Russian on the moon is going to end well, but I am guessing they will somehow paint it as they thought they were armed (which I guess is a natural assumption).


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> I absolutely get where Karen is in her life. But did it have to be the best friend of her dead son who's half her age? It just seems weird and wrong and out of character for this show


It does seem self-destructive, but I don't think it's out of character for Karen. I think she clearly wants out and all of these actions leading up to Danny are deliberate for her exiting the Baldwin family. 

Karen rejected by Kelly: she wants to follow in Ed's footsteps and not Karen's in choosing Naval Academy
Karen "allows" Ed to return to space: puts Ed in the training rotation and provides distancing.

Karen's rage with Ed's crash-downing: being put in the "widow in waiting" mode again.
Karen sells the bar: almost an instant/instinctual decision w/o consulting Ed or anyone else
Sleeping with Danny is burning the bridge. Something unforgivable that guarantees Ed won't pursue reconciliation. And also severs ties with Gordo/Tracy.

Maybe the dalliance wasn't consciously deliberate. But there's an empty spot in Karen's heart that neither an adopted daughter or running a bar can't quite fill.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> It does seem self-destructive, but I don't think it's out of character for Karen. I think she clearly wants out and all of these actions leading up to Danny are deliberate for her exiting the Baldwin family.
> 
> Karen rejected by Kelly: she wants to follow in Ed's footsteps and not Karen's in choosing Naval Academy
> Karen "allows" Ed to return to space: puts Ed in the training rotation and provides distancing.
> ...


It just felt that they could have done it in a less creepy way, up to and including an affair with Gordo. But, either way they could have written in a co-worker at the bar, someone known to Ed even who could have served the same purpose. It just felt unnecessary. But I guess it just adds to some of the over the top melodrama. The space stuff is pretty awesome which is why I am enjoying it.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I'm curious and have not seen a reference, but I am assuming that the shuttles remain in orbit during the various expeditions? Or are they just a cab dropping off one group, picking up the returning crew and heading home? If it's the former, I am assuming they are shutting the orbiter down?


We haven't seen too much of the details of the transport logistics aside from 2 or 3 shots of shuttles in lunar orbit.

Two details that the geek in me would have wanted to see (a) where do they hide all the extra fuel for TLI and TEI? and (b) How do they handle thermal management in flight (the one shot we've seen of a shuttle in cruise had the main doors closed; our shuttle has a short operational window with the doors closed before it starts to overheat, there are radiators as part of the door assembly)



wprager said:


> 100nm? Congratulations, you just blew yourself up.


That, and the whole 100nm range thing is just bizarre. A space-modified missile is going to need steering jets instead of fins, and "distance" doesn't mean much; depending on relative orbits your range could be far, or you could have a hard time hitting something that's currently not too far away.

But yeah, at times I need to shut off "engineering brain".


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> It just felt that they could have done it in a less creepy way, up to and including an affair with Gordo. But, either way they could have written in a co-worker at the bar, someone known to Ed even who could have served the same purpose. It just felt unnecessary.


We've still got two episodes for them to show why they made this choice, but thus far, I am with you. I have no issue with Karen's behavior generally, including hooking up with a young man, but why _this_ young man? Even if she wasn't thinking about Shane the whole time, I sure was.  Ewww. I guess we'll see.



> But I guess it just adds to some of the over the top melodrama.


We differ here, though. I don't think the show is particularly melodramatic, melodrama being plot for plot's sake, over characterization. (By the standard definition, the space stuff is the melodrama!) This has always been a character-driven drama with a space backdrop, and as such, the plot is going to be about the characters as much as the characters are there to serve the plot. I think so much of the reason it is watchable is because it does such a good job with its characters and their stories. It's one reason this potential fumble with Danny bugged me so much.

To each their own, of course. But I think the duality serves the show well.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> We haven't seen too much of the details of the transport logistics aside from 2 or 3 shots of shuttles in lunar orbit.
> 
> Two details that the geek in me would have wanted to see (a) where do they hide all the extra fuel for TLI and TEI? and (b) How do they handle thermal management in flight (the one shot we've seen of a shuttle in cruise had the main doors closed; our shuttle has a short operational window with the doors closed before it starts to overheat, there are radiators as part of the door assembly)
> 
> ...


The other thing that made me question the communications is if the bay doors were closed then the Ku-Band antenna isn't available and an S-Band Omni antenna as embedded in the shuttle structure would not be useable for comm.

Maybe they added fuel tanks for the OMEs in the payload bay? How much delta-v would be needed for TLI TEI?

and could the shuttle survive a trans lunar re-entry?

It seemed that cargo was only taken by Sea Dragon, ignoring shuttle cargo bay.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

kaszeta said:


> Two details that the geek in me would have wanted to see (a) where do they hide all the extra fuel for TLI and TEI? and (b) How do they handle thermal management in flight (the one shot we've seen of a shuttle in cruise had the main doors closed; our shuttle has a short operational window with the doors closed before it starts to overheat, there are radiators as part of the door assembly)


Also, the Shuttle was limited in acceptable beta angles. It was pretty dependant on being in shade for a good portion of the orbit. Being in sun for the whole 3-day trip to the moon would make for a very harsh thermal environment.[/QUOTE]


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Maybe they added fuel tanks for the OMEs in the payload bay? How much delta-v would be needed for TLI TEI?


They at least showed some extra tankage once, when Contiki was docked with Skylab (in what otherwise seemed like a throwaway scene): the rear half of the payload bay was filled with tanks.

Going by my delta V cheat sheet, from LEO to Moon orbit is around 4 km/s to a decent low lunar orbit, to around 1.5 to get back if you've got a decent reentry system to handle the high speed entry. I have a feeling that's more dV than you could fit in what they showed in Contiki, but at least they showed something

Realistically, if you wanted to a lot of this sort of transfer, I'd expect you'd work on building some sort of fuel depot out of external tanks, or, since they have the Sea Dragon, something big lifted that way. NASA has a lot of concepts for zero-boiloff cryogenic storage and transfer they've kicked around using this model.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

kaszeta said:


> They at least showed some extra tankage once, when Contiki was docked with Skylab (in what otherwise seemed like a throwaway scene): the rear half of the payload bay was filled with tanks.
> 
> Going by my delta V cheat sheet, from LEO to Moon orbit is around 4 km/s to a decent low lunar orbit, to around 1.5 to get back if you've got a decent reentry system to handle the high speed entry. I have a feeling that's more dV than you could fit in what they showed in Contiki, but at least they showed something


If I'm doing the math right, if you used the entire payload capacity of the Shuttle for extra propellant for the OMS, you'd still be short by about 5,000 lbs of the needed propellant to get to the moon and back. And that's not even county the weight of the tanks and plumbing.

Like you say, a fuel depot would be the only real way to pull this off. The Shuttle going to the moon would have to get to orbit and keep its external tank attached, refuel the ET, then take the ET with it all the way to the moon.

Seems like it'd be much more efficient to simply have a dedicated LEO/LLO transfer vehicle that the Shuttle docks with in LEO.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

cmontyburns said:


> ... I have no issue with Karen's behavior generally, including hooking up with a young man, but *why this young man*? Even if she wasn't thinking about Shane the whole time, I sure was.  Ewww. I guess we'll see...


I think it was BECAUSE of his connection to their dead son. Weird? Yes. Strange? Yes.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> I think it was BECAUSE of his connection to their dead son. Weird? Yes. Strange? Yes.


We know exactly why. The question is, why did the writers have to go there when there were so many other ways to go, either with characters that exist or with characters they could have introduced. And it's not even as if Karen thought it was the wrong thing to do. To her it was just a fling, and she had the chance to back out completely the previous episode, and she wound up doing it anyway. To make the point that she was bored and felt neglected didn't have to go this creepy way. But I'm sure Ed will find out, and blame it on his buddy Gordo somehow, because, we need more drama.


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## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

Thank goodness we are back to character development and not all that techy space talk.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> We know exactly why. The question is, why did the writers have to go there when there were so many other ways to go, either with characters that exist or with characters they could have introduced. And it's not even as if Karen thought it was the wrong thing to do. To her it was just a fling, and she had the chance to back out completely the previous episode, and she wound up doing it anyway. To make the point that she was bored and felt neglected didn't have to go this creepy way. But I'm sure Ed will find out, and blame it on his buddy Gordo somehow, because, we need more drama.


You're missing my point; they (and she) "went THERE" because of the kid's strong connection to her son. That's why they/she didn't go "so many other ways".


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> You're missing my point; they (and she) "went THERE" because of the kid's strong connection to her son. That's why they/she didn't go "so many other ways".


I got the point perfectly, and I'm saying there could have been other strong connections developed that didn't involve her sleeping with her son's best friend, including any number of NASA people, or a co-worker at the bar. Or heck, since it's popular now, a lesbian relationship even. There's any number of bored housewife stories they could have created.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I got the point perfectly, and I'm saying there could have been other strong connections developed that didn't involve her sleeping with her son's best friend, including any number of NASA people, or a co-worker at the bar. Or heck, since it's popular now, a lesbian relationship even. There's any number of bored housewife stories they could have created.


Of course there could...but none would have the impact that this connection did. All the ones you mention are boring (IMO); this connection was more personal and intriguing given the relationship the kid had with her kid. And this was not a "bored housewife" story either, given the complex relationship. I'm actually glad they went there; it was pretty much unexpected (at least given the speculation here).


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Of course there could...but none would have the impact that this connection did. All the ones you mention are boring (IMO); this connection was more personal and intriguing given the relationship the kid had with her kid. And this was not a "bored housewife" story either, given the complex relationship. I'm actually glad they went there; it was pretty much unexpected (at least given the speculation here).


Of course we don't KNOW what other relationship they could have developed that could have been just as intriguing. They just didn't develop it in another way. We only know the way they did develop it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> Of course we don't KNOW what other relationship they could have developed that could have been just as intriguing. They just didn't develop it in another way. We only know the way they did develop it.


Not as intriguing as your dead son's best friend.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> Not as intriguing as your dead son's best friend.


I guess it's a good way to emotionally reconnect with your dead son...


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Pining for the mom of your dead childhood best friend from ~12 years old is off putting and makes little sense other than he has unresolved issues from that time. The boy even lived with them for a time while his mom and dad were off playing Astronauts. 

I think for most mothers of dead children, thinking of banging you deceased child's best friend would not be a turn on.

I could see one of the two having feelings, but both of them deciding that was something they wanted to do seems far fetched.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

I get why Danny wanted Karen.
[Chandler]
Have you _seen_ Shantel VanSanten?
[/Chandler]

He's 18 (maybe 19), a mass of raging hormones, a year into a hypercompetitive school environment, and always had a thing for his dead friend's hot mom while his parents were away a lot.
(And it seems like his mother more or less checked out of the family over the last few years.)

But it's unfathomable to me why Karen would do it with Danny.
He's her dead son's best friend, her daughter's friend, and his parents are among the family's closest friends.

If this gets out, it will not only completely destroy her relationship with Ed, it will also destroy it with Tracy, Gordo, and Kelly.

I also find it far fetched and and to a certain extant, some lazy writing.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

JYoung said:


> I get why Danny wanted Karen.
> [Chandler]
> Have you _seen_ Shantel VanSanten?
> [/Chandler]
> ...


It sounds more worthy of Pornhub...not that I'd know anything about that!


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I get why Danny wanted Karen.
> [Chandler]
> Have you _seen_ Shantel VanSanten?
> [/Chandler]
> ...


Because he's hot and as was mentioned earlier, she's doing things that she wants to do to be in control of her own life.

"This young hot guy wants me? Hell yeah!"

I don't think her thought process went beyond that at first.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

PJO1966 said:


> Because he's hot and as was mentioned earlier, she's doing things that she wants to do to be in control of her own life.
> 
> "This young hot guy wants me? Hell yeah!"
> 
> I don't think her thought process went beyond that at first.


Which is the problem, 

Yes, they've shown Karen being impulsive (especially after being introduced as uptight) with her lighting up with Wayne and making the snap decision to sell the bar.
But this tryst with Danny has her drawing too far outside the lines because of who she is.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Penthouse Letters:

"I never thought this would happen to me..."


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

Wow what an episode


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Random User 7 said:


> Wow what an episode


I assume you're talking about the new one. I better go, then, haven't seen it yet.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

wprager said:


> I assume you're talking about the new one. I better go, then, haven't seen it yet.


Go. See. It.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

**** SPOILERS FOR S02E09 "Triage" START HERE ****

Yeah, Today was a Bad Day.


Jamestown under assault. Jamestown occupied by hostile forces.
One Astronaut dead.
Jamestown damaged, potentially requiring abandonment (my speculation). Is Comm cut off? I think so.
Braun blockading the moon.
Pathfinder launch (Virgin Galactic has to be saying "Yep, that's how you launch"
Karen dumping her infidelity on Ed as he is walking out the door to get his mission launched.
Ed picking up a woman at a bar and stopping before [Insert dirty euphamism]

Margo's Russian Counterpart saying Soyuz launched even as Jamestown is under assault. Did it launch? Will there be a linkup or is the Apollo-75 grew walking into a trap. Did Margo's counterpart know of the attack?
One more episode to wrap things up.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

So much to unpack. It was really a Bad Day.

*Jamestown*. Under siege. While the Cosmonauts are occupying the operations segment, can it be operated in its condition? Is the goal is to force the Americans to evacuate Jamestown? If yes, will Tracy be up to the task to fly them out? With the operations area out of commission, occupied by the Soviets, NASA has no idea what is going on. Can they notify JSC via the radios on the transports? Is there a shuttle in orbit for evac? I need to watch S02E01 and S01E02 again to see about the flight home after the solar storm.

*JSC* - Has Margo been totally played? Provided info on design defects that allowed the Soviets to launch Braun which enabled the blockade. Did Margo's counterpart continue to play Margo regarding on the status of the Soyuz launch? Could the crew of Apollo-75 end up opening up the hatch and staring down a gun?


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

*Pathfinder*: I was surprised by Sally Ride's acceptance that the mission is now military in nature and her handling of the side arm. I am old enough to remember Enterprise undergoing atmospheric testing, and how there were concerns of contacting the SCA (Shuttle Carrier Aircraft) vertical stabilizer. The tail on Pathfinders aircraft was huge!

On edit: no one caught me Mis-identifying the SCA?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Win Joy Jr said:


> *JSC* - Has Margo been totally played? Provided info on design defects that allowed the Soviets to launch Braun which enabled the blockade. Did Margo's counterpart continue to play Margo regarding on the status of the Soyuz launch? Could the crew of Apollo-75 end up opening up the hatch and staring down a gun?


Remember, though, they very specifically mentioned Pathfinder's military superiority to Buran. I can't imagine that won't play a big part next week...


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Remember, though, they very specifically mentioned Pathfinder's military superiority to Buran. I can't imagine that won't play a big part next week...


If Jamestown has fallen, would Pathfinder still try to run the blockade? Because at the moment no one outside of Jamestown knows what is going on.

I wouldn't put it past the show runners to leave us in a bad place at the end of the season and then starting Season 3 Ten years later having the US rebuilding. Maybe the race to Mars after giving up on the Moon?


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Holy cow. 

Might rewatch that one before commenting further. But those last few minutes...!


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Pathfinder: that airborne launch was nice. And the displays labeling it as OV-201 was a nice touch.

Sea Dragon: nice to see another Sea Dragon launch.

Kentucky-Fried Cosmonaut: that bugged me since last week. If the Soviets used pure oxygen (plausible) it wouldn’t be at high pressure. A spark in that suit would be like a spark in Earth air.

Pulling the airlock door closed trope: sigh. Not going to happen. Not even close. Just have someone push a “close” button and have hydraulics do it, since you’d need that in reality.


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING! THE RUSSIANS ARE COMING! 
HOLY COW!
Those last few minutes! I totally agree with what others have said-had me on the edge of my seat!
..and there was a conversation just before the attack about Jamestown being under nuclear power again-so will there be some sort of "nuclear option" to self-destruct? Just a thought...Good Lord! 
So Gordo and Tracy are - um - doing the deed behind several closed doors-do they even hear what is going on? Are the others going to come and hide and find them? OOO! I can't wait for next week!
I did like how they explained why Ed didn't have his wedding ring on (that he had to surrender it before the launch). But that did facilitate his "two wrongs make a right" attempt. But he couldn't "complete the mission" 
So did Pam leave to give Ellen a chance at being a congresswoman? Dang, I had high hopes for those crazy kids.
Has Molly really accepted her inevitable blindness? Glad she didn't waste money on a fake "cure" in Mexico. She and her husband are so sweet together. Polar opposites yet they make it work.
Great episode. Keep 'em coming!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Buran, not Braun. For a few seconds I was wondering that I somehow missed Colm Feore making a comeback cameo (he'd have to be ancient).

Anyone else wonder how it is that the Russians had guns and ammo all of a sudden? Kinda makes the point that the Americans were right in bringing in the marines.

I am not an astrophysicist, but isn't the moon bombarded by various space "dust" fairly regularly? Lots of large craters and I suspect without any atmosphere to bounce off there would be other small debris hitting it somewhat regularly. As a consequence of that why would any habitat have large windows -- did an interior decorator design it? With today's tech I would place outward facing cameras feeding window-sized screens, but the exterior wall would have to be able to withstand space junk hitting it. Then, again, I am not an astrophysicist.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bear in mind that those craters are the result of billions of years' worth of impacts. It's not like the Earth, where you have the movement of air, water, and plate tectonics to smooth them over. The odds of anything hitting a certain point on the Moon at any given time are, well, astronomical. And I suspect the psychological damage of spending months confined to a building without windows would be immense.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Win Joy Jr said:


> *Pathfinder*: I was surprised by Sally Ride's acceptance that the mission is now military in nature and her handling of the side arm. I am old enough to remember Enterprise undergoing atmospheric testing, and how there were concerns of contacting the STA (Shuttle Transport Aircraft) vertical stabilizer. The tail on Pathfinders aircraft was huge!


I like this topic-specific post approach. I tend to write longer posts covering an entire episode, but then have to find the time to get it all down. Easier to chop it up like this, especially in an episode with so much worth talking about. :thumbsup:

So with that in mind...

Ellen & Pam -- Pam's method of leaving Ellen was both heroic and brutal. In lying about going back to Elise, she both takes the burden from Ellen about choosing between Pam and breaking her promise to Pam, and also makes sure it stays taken (no reason for Ellen to go chase Pam if she thinks Pam has picked someone else). But of course this leaves Ellen thinking that she must have done something, or otherwise didn't measure up. In some ways that might be harder than knowing the truth. (It's also a little hard to think charitably of Larry here. He surely knows what's up and doesn't tell Ellen. To be sure, telling her would be undoing Pam's choice and it's not really his place to do so, and it also might not change anything; but at the same time, it's good for him that Pam left, and telling Ellen the truth would make his life tougher again.)


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Win Joy Jr said:


> *...* [Insert dirty euphamism...


I've never heard it called THAT before...


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Where the heck are their Marines? They go all half cocked and shoot two Russians, killing one. 

Did they think there was no chance of the Russians retaliating?


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Karen & Ed: Karen started the series as the character in the most sympathetic situation (technically I guess that was Tracy, but by episode three she was on her way), but somehow also as the least likable person. They did a good job bringing her along through the end of the season and most of season two. By the time we got to the affair (leaving aside the Danny problem) we could at least understand what was driving her to do it. But telling Ed about it on his way out the door to a very dangerous mission was an enormous regression for her. Ed is a serial narcissist and not blameless for what she feels is a problem in their marriage, but telling him just then was a real heel turn. Not only did she tell him, she clearly wanted him to know, and not just to know, but to know she did it with malice aforethought and she's not sorry. Jiminy.

When Ed was demanding to know who it was, I half-hoped she'd tell him just to justify the show's questionable choice of it being Danny. Hard to see how that will come up in the last episode of the season, cementing it as an unnecessary choice unless they come back to it "ten years later".


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

That's how you do an episode!! Can't wait for the S2 Finale!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Oh man, only one more episode? bummer!


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

vertigo235 said:


> Oh man, only one more episode? bummer!


I've only read the last 2 posts in this thread. Time to binge-watch S2.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> But telling Ed about it on his way out the door to a very dangerous mission was an enormous regression for her. Ed is a serial narcissist and not blameless for what she feels is a problem in their marriage, but telling him just then was a real heel turn. Not only did she tell him, she clearly wanted him to know, and not just to know, but to know she did it with malice aforethought and she's not sorry. Jiminy.


I totally disagree. It seems like she's standing up for herself. Ed was oblivious to the torture she went through as he was out risking his life (putting himself on a mission after she thought he was going to stay in a desk job, and especially the completely unnecessary T-38 dogfight). The fact that Pathfinder's mission had been pushed up just put her over the edge, and she wanted Ed to know that her life wasn't going to revolve around him anymore. Waiting to tell him would just mean that, once again, Ed's desires come before hers. She was sick of it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nataylor said:


> I totally disagree. It seems like she's standing up for herself. Ed was oblivious to the torture she went through as he was out risking his life (putting himself on a mission after she thought he was going to stay in a desk job, and especially the completely unnecessary T-38 dogfight). The fact that Pathfinder's mission had been pushed up just put her over the edge, and she wanted Ed to know that her life wasn't going to revolve around him anymore. Waiting to tell him would just mean that, once again, Ed's desires come before hers. She was sick of it.


I get that, but there's more at stake then just her (and Ed's) feelings. She's jeopardizing a critical mission in the middle of a potentially nuclear confrontation. And she strikes me as having been written as the kind of person who would get that.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I get that, but there's more at stake then just her (and Ed's) feelings. She's jeopardizing a critical mission in the middle of a potentially nuclear confrontation. And she strikes me as having been written as the kind of person who would get that.


Yes, this is where I am. It's crystal-clear what led her to the affair and why, and that Ed, though he loves her, his enough of a narcissist not to see how he helped cause it. Her feelings are valid, and he should know about them, and her suggesting counseling is a reasonable thing to have done. But her telling him about the affair in this moment, and in this way, played not like a "it's time we be open about things" conversation, but a "you're leaving and so I'm getting even with you" bit of pettiness. She knows how dangerous telling him then could be. Just look at the title of the next episode.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I get that, but there's more at stake then just her (and Ed's) feelings. She's jeopardizing a critical mission in the middle of a potentially nuclear confrontation. And she strikes me as having been written as the kind of person who would get that.


She doesn't know what Pathfinder is doing. There's no indication she knows what's going on on the Moon. It's a test flight, as far as she knows. But even if she did know everything, I still wouldn't hold it against her. Ed's male fragility is not more important than her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nataylor said:


> She doesn't know what Pathfinder is doing. There's no indication she knows what's going on on the Moon. It's a test flight, as far as she knows. But even if she did know everything, I still wouldn't hold it against her. Ed's male fragility is not more important than her.


Well, the whole world knows that Russia and the US are on the verge of a war, and that space is central to that. And after the discussion (argument) they had (along with their daughter) and the specific way Ed avoided talking about his mission, I don't think they have much doubt that it has something to do with all that.

And even if she didn't have a clue (which I don't believe for a second), Ed's male fragility being shattered will at the very least put at risk everybody else on the mission. She knows better, but the plot demands that she act as if she doesn't (apparently, they want Ed to have some kind of break-down or &@^#-up). She should be planning what she will do the minute Ed gets back (or, if she's really vengeful, she will already have done it and he'll only find out when he returns).


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

When Ed signed himself up for Pathfinder it was just a demo mission proving the craft, testing new technology. The shooting down of a satellite in LEO was probably classified. The drama with the Soviets wasn't about to boil over back then. I agree she was planning on blowing up her marriage once Ed told her he was going back to space, and she needed to demonstrate she has some control of whats going on around her, but she could've had an affair with someone else. Maybe the guy who bought the bar, or some other astronaut.

I think (and maybe the others that don't like the way the plot was handled) sleeping with her dead child's best friend has to mean more than she's just mad at Ed. If the writers just wanted Ed to be in a state of emotional crisis during this very important mission, and if there's no fall out of her affair with Danny Stevens then what was the point. I've seen someone write elsewhere that it's a double standard because fans like Gordo after his affairs and fans still like him. I'm saying who she slept with that gives me doubt. She's blowing everything up if things come to a head. Her marriage, her friendships, the memory of her son, relationship with her daughter who its been hinted she has an interest in Danny, it all has a fuse on it now by sleeping with Danny. Plus whatever fallout that's going to go on in the next episode.


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## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

robojerk said:


> [...] but she could've had an affair with someone else. Maybe the guy who bought the bar, or some other astronaut.
> [...]


The guy who bought the bar is Tracy's current husband, right?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

spear said:


> The guy who bought the bar is Tracy's current husband, right?


Yes...but not for long


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

spear said:


> The guy who bought the bar is Tracy's current husband, right?





Bierboy said:


> Yes...but not for long


And when you think about it, THAT'S where they could have gone rather than her son's friend. First, you had Gordo going to see him and tell him that he was going to win Tracy back. That could lead the husband to think about how faithful Tracy might wind up (especially with Gordo and Tracy being on the moon together). Second, it's her friend's husband, and that might be a good way to kind of spite her current husband, sleeping with his best friend's ex-wife's husband.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> And when you think about it, THAT'S where they could have gone rather than her son's friend. First, you had Gordo going to see him and tell him that he was going to win Tracy back. That could lead the husband to think about how faithful Tracy might wind up (especially with Gordo and Tracy being on the moon together). Second, it's her friend's husband, and that might be a good way to kind of spite her current husband, sleeping with his best friend's ex-wife's husband.


What boggles my mind isn't so much that somebody in the writer's room thought that having her bang her dead son's friend was a good idea. I mean, everybody has stupid moments like that, even writers.

It's that everybody else in the writer's room went along with it.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

Wow, we really have low expectations about Tracey’s husband ethics.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Random User 7 said:


> Wow, we really have low expectations about Tracey's husband ethics.


Well, he's a rich businessman.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Random User 7 said:


> Wow, we really have low expectations about Tracey's husband ethics.


Well, we don't know Tracey's husband that well. As we have seen with Karen, even after she banged the kid, she only considered that it was nothing more than sex. When the kid told her that he loved her, she took him to task. So to me this says that this was a fling for her, with a willing participant. In which case it could have been with anyone there was even the remotest connection with. I think the writers took the "sexy" way out, and wanted to give us "something to talk about" which we have. In that respect it worked. But it's still creepy and could have been done a different way (though less "sexy")


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I've been wanting to see a layout of Jamestown to know where everyone is. (I'm sure one is out there, but I've not looked for it.) Or I guess I could go back to when Tracy or Gordo arrived and got the tour, which was useful setup for the conclusion of this episode.

I couldn't tell, but I guess the crew escaped the command center into the habitation module. If they didn't, then the rest of the crew is dead. That means it's vacuum the other way, to the airlock, where Gordo and Tracy are trapped, although I guess there are suits in there. The captain is stuck in his bunk room, which we established in this episode is sealed as those rooms can be used for hyperbaric purposes. But it's vacuum outside his room. Is all that about right?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> I've been wanting to see a layout of Jamestown to know where everyone is. (I'm sure one is out there, but I've not looked for it.) Or I guess I could go back to when Tracy or Gordo arrived and got the tour, which was useful setup for the conclusion of this episode.
> 
> I couldn't tell, but I guess the crew escaped the command center into the habitation module. If they didn't, then the rest of the crew is dead. That means it's vacuum the other way, to the airlock, where Gordo and Tracy are trapped, although I guess there are suits in there. The captain is stuck in his bunk room, which we established in this episode is sealed as those rooms can be used for hyperbaric purposes. But it's vacuum outside his room. Is all that about right?


One thing that struck as odd at the time was when the Americans left the Soviets alone in the airlock with the dead body (and with the Americans' space suits). I wonder if that will come back to haunt them?


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> One thing that struck as odd at the time was when the Americans left the Soviets alone in the airlock with the dead body (and with the Americans' space suits). I wonder if that will come back to haunt them?


I was going to say that they were not left alone, then remembered after the claiming of the body of the dead Cosmonaut that they were left alone. Depends if the assault was planned before or after that trip.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

cmontyburns said:


> I've been wanting to see a layout of Jamestown to know where everyone is. (I'm sure one is out there, but I've not looked for it.)


There was actually a pretty detailed on as one of the video files on Apple TV of the featurettes between Season 1 and Season 2, but those appear to have been taken down.

About the best I can easily find is here:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377760751750934536


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I was going to say that they were not left alone, then remembered after the claiming of the body of the dead Cosmonaut that they were left alone. Depends if the assault was planned before or after that trip.


Doesn't really matter...at that point, the two sides were basically at war, and the Americans should never have left such important materials (i.e., the suits) alone with the Soviets.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Doesn't really matter...at that point, the two sides were basically at war, and the Americans should never have left such important materials (i.e., the suits) alone with the Soviets.


They likely have spares. There were only a few suits in the airlock.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

EV suits are big/bukly. With a crew this large I'll agree they do have spare stuff, but probably in a storage closet. Probably not really accessible while under siege. My guess is all the crew die but the Stevens survive since they were in the airlock with all the plot armor, I mean ev suits.


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## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

robojerk said:


> My guess is all the crew die but the Stevens survive since they were in the airlock with all the plot armor, I mean ev suits.


There are also two armed Marines at the mining site, unless the Russians took care of them also.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Im shocked the mining site doesn't have a small airlock, for bathroom breaks or whatever. Standing on the moon in your EV suit cant be fun.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Don't they just pee in the suit? I recall then discussing how to adapt the suits to accommodate female astronauts?


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## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

I must be an astronaut in training. I run the risk of peeing in my suit several times a week.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

wprager said:


> Don't they just pee in the suit? I recall then discussing how to adapt the suits to accommodate female astronauts?


I don't know how it's done on the show, but NASA astronauts use Depends while on EVA and it's been like that since Apollo (I believe the earlier missions, being shorter, were literally "hold it in")..

There's probably a really technical term for it, but it's basically Depends.

Of course, when not in your suit, the Apollo astronauts had bags for #1 and #2. #1 was a bag filled with the same absorbent stuff as a diaper so you went and it became a solid. #2 wasn't pleasant since it was basically stick the bag on you butt, do your business, then seal the bag. An improper butt seal, sticky tape failure to maintain seal or failure to seal the bag in time left... floaters. In the cabin. There are transcripts.

And yes, Depends is used a lot - female fighter pilots wear them while flying (males unzip and do it in a piddle bag, same concept as in space but there's gravity and you have to deal with the encumbrance of all the equipment).


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Worf said:


> I don't know how it's done on the show, but NASA astronauts use Depends while on EVA and it's been like that since Apollo (I believe the earlier missions, being shorter, were literally "hold it in")..
> 
> There's probably a really technical term for it, but it's basically Depends.
> 
> ...


This is more information than I needed to know


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Steveknj said:


> This is more information than I needed to know


Wait til you see how the ISS occupants to their business. It's better than the bags, but still foul AF.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

Saturn_V said:


> Wait til you see how the ISS occupants to their business. It's better than the bags, but still foul AF.


Part of the training involves lining your butthole up with a camera inside the toilet bowl.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Let's just hope that camera is not connected to the internet.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)




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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

The shuttle toilets require aiming with the porta-cam. The ISS toilet I'm not so familiar with, they are apparently closer to the Mir toilet design.

In fact, I'm going to let a rather delightful blog entry describe the Space Shuttle toilet, which also includes the tale of an accident that almost lead to the shuttle toilet being out of commission. Of course, NASA has contingencies for this - Apollo bags!

Thanksgiving Memories - Wayne Hale's Blog

Edit: Found this which seems to have a bit more salacious details The Space Shuttle Discovery and Its Toilet



JYoung said:


>


Where is that from?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Alan Shepard had an unfortunate experience on his Redstone flight. Unexpected holds kept him on the pad, in the capsule, in a space suit that had no provision for urination, for more than four hours. Eventually he was forced to relieve himself, which action was noted by his suit telemetry. There was an involved discussion and investigation as to what effect this was going to have, which eventually was decided to be "not much".

Provision for bladder relief was added for the subsequent launches.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Worf said:


> Where is that from?


2001: a space odyssey


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Good Finale (albeit predictable) Plenty of solid space drama instead of interpersonal stuff. B+. 


Spoiler: yes, I know it's a spoiler thread



Will miss Gordo and Tracy, hope that Karen is around for S3. I hope the the Sergei/Margo plot doesn't capsize S3. And I'm kinda done with Ed. The character may be period-specific, but he's starting to grate on my nerves.



So the next jump is 1995.


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## redrouteone (Jun 16, 2001)

With the jump to 1995 I wonder if the Soviet Union will still collapse in 1991. Also wonder if Bill Clinton will be president.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

*FROM THIS POINT ON THERE WILL BE SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 10: "GREY".*

Well, that was not all that predictable.

*Jamestown: *

I truly appreciated the "Abandon in Place" cables in the Galley, and that happens all the time on the ground. 
I figured that Gordo was doomed as part of his redemption arc, but Tracy also? Loved the determination and that they did not leave each other behind. Died in each others arms. A nice touch of accuracy the rupturing of blood vessels near their eyes, and the degradation of the "suits" during the "EVA".
I am guessing that there must have been some sort of shutter that allowed the restoration of atmosphere in the OPS module. Don't buy that MCC took the "Bad Sensor" call from Jamestown. Atmosphere components for a repress has to be gauged and telemetered. And each and every hatch should have a status indicator indicating if its open, closed and locked.
Who the heck installed and integrated a second reactor? 
*Pathfinder:* 

I called it that Sally Ride would not agree with firing the missiles. 
I was surprised that Ed destroyed Sea Dragon. 
Sorry, but there is no way Buran has the Delta-V capability to make the type of orbital adjustment described. And there would have to be another maneuver to get the 2 vehicles in the same plane.
*Apollo: *

Loved that Danielle made the call to go for the docking. I think she may be the next Chief of the Astronaut Office in Season 3.
*JSC: *

Loved the touch that Bill had Aleida give the go for docking. In 10 years she may be a Flight Director in Season 3. Loved her and Molly's interaction. 
There is no way that a receiver would be left on, behind a bunch of boxes in JSC. Also, JSC does not have a direct link to any vehicle. All comm goes through Goddard (loved the Goddard shout-out)
*Earth:* 

In the Arlington National Cemetery I only counted 3 caskets. By my count there were 4 fatalities. The OPS guy last week, the Marine this week, Gordo and Tracy. 
I REALLY do not want the whole "Margo will be compromised by the Soviets" line.
Curious if Ed and Karen are done. Surprised that Ed was driving to DC from Houston for the memorial. 
*Mars:*

Interesting that the EVA boots look a lot different. Reminded me of the boots currently in use for Crew Dragon. 
With the nuclear powered shuttle the US SHOULD be able to beat the Soviets to Mars. especially with Ellen as Administrator. 
Bring on Season 3.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I need to sit with that one for a bit before posting anything in detail. Overall, I thought it was a thrilling and poignant conclusion to the season. The season overall was just masterful storytelling, with almost everything happening on the ground and in space in the first eight episodes coming together to deeply enrich and inform these last two, and especially this finale. Bravo.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

So many technical problems! But the story was good.

And hey, Sam's office is in the same building they shot Homecoming in.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

As somebody who got to install networked computers in mission control as well as rewriting the real time operating system that the shuttle used for 6 degree freedom simulations at NASA Ames VMS facility in the late 80s and being blessed to actually land the simulated shuttle in motion once.

I recognized a lot of the issues but totally totally enjoyed this.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I cried like a baby for Gordo and Tracy. Such a well done episode.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

The Stevens arc was so good, it only made sense for them to die together or live together. 

Great episode and show!


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> The Stevens arc was so good, it only made sense for them to die together or live together.
> 
> Great episode and show!


*Jamestown*: I'm going to say that the redemption arc was both characters journey. Tracy went from being a "spokesmodel Astronaut" on Earth, to rediscovering her "Astronaut" after a disastrous start to her Jamestown tour of duty, to finally doing exactly what Molly did in S2E01 not leaving (the love of her life, her partner and) another astronaut behind.

*JSC*: I also found it a nice touch that only one person (a no named extra) took Margo up on her offer to head to the shelters. It circled back to Bill's determination during Gemini story. Aleida stayed. She has found her place. Molly's "I like this one" is high praise.

What I just realized is that Margo should have no business on the floor of the FCR (Flight Control Room) in any reality. There is a conference room off the gallery where VIP staff monitor the mission. The Flight Director is in command of the room. Having the Administrator there would undercut Helena's authority. I doubt as the JSC Administrator that Margo kept up with her Flight Director certification.

Yes I know it's fiction, it's an alternate reality, Margo was in the FCR for story and dramatic purposes, but it should have been Flight who gave the speech during the sounding of the air raid sirens.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Must admit, even though I had read the @Saturn_V's spoiler, the room suddenly got all dusty. Well done, RDM, you old dog.

With another decade-long jump, wonder who will remain from the S2 cast? They had done a good job aging Ed, not so good with Karen. Would not be surprised if both are gone. I wonder if one of the main pitches for this show was that the 10(ish) year jumps meant nobody got to stay more than a couple of seasons, keeping escalating salaries out of the budget. It's risky, but it has worked so far (mind you, small sample size).

I don't see how they can continue the Margo-is-compromised story line. First, can they add another 10 years to her makeup? Second -- as already mentioned -- will the USSR even be in the picture (China as the main antagonist makes a lot more sense). Third, what did they have on her, really?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> Third, what did they have on her, really?


Yeah, that struck me as odd. She deliberately phrased her inside information in such a way that it seemed like something innocuous, from which the Soviets were able to figure out the problem. Which means A) how can they prove she meant to give away that information, and B) what's so terrible about passing that information on anyway? She maybe prevented one load of cosmonauts from getting blown up (or maybe not, if the Soviets figured it out on their own before an accident happened). Yeah, she could be quietly fired (forced into retirement?), but I doubt the consequences would be any worse than that...it's not like she was passing nuclear secrets or anything. She was just trying to save lives.


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

I didn’t get the sense the Soviets have anything on Margo, other than her relationship with Sergei. They’re just going to use that relationship to their advantage, without her being aware she’s an intelligence asset.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

nataylor said:


> I didn't get the sense the Soviets have anything on Margo, other than her relationship with Sergei. They're just going to use that relationship to their advantage, without her being aware she's an intelligence asset.


Yep. All that matters is that she was willing to pass on information, apparently because of a warm relationship with Sergei. Why not try to exploit that and see what else she might give up?


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> B) what's so terrible about passing that information on anyway? She maybe prevented one load of cosmonauts from getting blown up (or maybe not, if the Soviets figured it out on their own before an accident happened).


It's possible Buran would have launched without incident without the O-ring fix. However, the fact is she gave them the fix, they successfully launched a repaired shuttle, and that shuttle blockaded the moon.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

nataylor said:


> I didn't get the sense the Soviets have anything on Margo, other than her relationship with Sergei. They're just going to use that relationship to their advantage, without her being aware she's an intelligence asset.


That was also my take.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

This was probably the most "science fiction" episode of the show to date. That doesn't disrupt my enjoyment too much as long as the show stays within a reasonable facsimile of our reality, which even this episode did, in my book. So I'll leave the technical critiques to others who care more about that stuff. The things that usually distract me more are storytelling issues, and I have a few such nits to pick with this finale. So before I get to the stuff I liked, some minor issues:

It has been obvious for a while that the key to unwinding the US-Soviet tension would be the Apollo-Soyuz handshake. By the end of the last episode, though, things had escalated enough that it was starting to seem unrealistic that the handshake could plausibly trigger a resolution. Tensions escalated even further in this episode, including the outright murder of US marines by the Soviets. I think it all wound up being a little too much weight to put on the handshake, and the resolution came awfully fast from there. So I didn't think it totally worked as a fulcrum -- but I will say that the moment as shown was thrilling and full of heart. A testament to the character work the show did earlier in the season as Dani got to know her cosmonaut counterparts, and they here.
The sequence onboard Pathfinder, with the guns drawn, was tense and dramatic -- and also a narrative cheat for dramatic purposes. I don't know when Ed changed his mind about shooting down Buran -- it had to be between him telling Sally to target the shuttle, and him taking her seat -- but you know how you avoid all the gunplay? Ed tells her what he is doing! Maybe we are supposed to think it is pride on his part that he doesn't want her to think he caved because he had a gun on him or something. However, it's just not plausible that he'd draw his own gun and risk a disaster that would kill them all and destroy Pathfinder rather than tell her what he had decided to do. It did make for a great scene, which is why they wrote it that way, but there was quite a bit of dramatic license there.
And last, our old friend: Karen's affair with Danny. As expected, they never addressed it after it happened, making it a very awkward creative choice when the two of them are at the funeral together, grieving, and we're just thinking that two episodes ago they were getting it on. I thought that undercut the power of the funeral scene a little bit. And as it indeed turned out, they could have accomplished everything they wanted in the Karen arc by having it be someone else she had slept with, as many of us were saying upthread. That for me is probably the big goof of the season.
None of that dulled the overall impact of this finale; there was so much good stuff that these turn out to be relatively minor objections.


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## Allanon (Nov 2, 2005)

cmontyburns said:


> I don't know when Ed changed his mind about shooting down Buran


Ed changed his mind when Gary told him it's not a black and white choice and maybe something else can be done. Ed probably remembered his wife telling him not everything is black and white there is grey.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Well, the episode WAS called “Gray”.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I'm talking about the logistics of the scene. They went for drama over logic (which is OK; it was a good scene). If he intended to blow up Sea Dragon when he relieved Sally, why not just tell her that and let her set the coordinates instead of relieving her? If he decided that after she pulled the gun on him, why not tell her that instead of pulling a gun on her himself and risking a real disaster? The scene doesn't really make sense. But if he had done the logical thing and just told her, then we wouldn't have had a good scene, so they wrote around the logic. It's a nit.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

cmontyburns said:


> I'm talking about the logistics of the scene. They went for drama over logic (which is OK; it was a good scene). If he intended to blow up Sea Dragon when he relieved Sally, why not just tell her that and let her set the coordinates instead of relieving her? If he decided that after she pulled the gun on him, why not tell her that instead of pulling a gun on her himself and risking a real disaster? The scene doesn't really make sense. But if he had done the logical thing and just told her, then we wouldn't have had a good scene, so they wrote around the logic. It's a nit.


By doing what he did he made it clear that was him and only him that takes responsibility for his actions and the other two do not get hit with insubordination/treason/....


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Umm, pulling a gun on a superior officer who is attempting to carry out a command given from above -- that's pretty much insubordination on steroids.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Indeed, and besides, Sally was begging Ed to disobey orders anyway. She wasn't going to then duck her part in it he decided to do so.

Aside: did anyone else find it just slightly weird watching this scene that Sally Ride was a real person? I wonder what her family and her partner would/did think of what they had her do here.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> Indeed, and besides, Sally was begging Ed to disobey orders anyway. She wasn't going to then duck her part in it he decided to do so.
> 
> Aside: did anyone else find it just slightly weird watching this scene that Sally Ride was a real person? I wonder what her family and her partner would/did think of what they had her do here.


There were many more "Historical Figures" portrayed during Season 1. Gene Kranz, Buzz Aldren, John Glenn, Wernher von Braun as well as Deke Slayton and more that I am not recalling. In the Season 1 finale, Deke's reaction to Ellen's coming out to him was a very powerful scene.

As far as Sally Ride in this timeline, who knows how here character has evolved differently. Deke's character has only had a short amount of time to be affected by losing the "Space Race". Sally Ride was born in 1951, so she was a teen-ager when the Soviets beat the US to the moon. While she became an astronaut, there is no info on how the character has differed from our reality.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I'm aware, of course, of the other real-life figures in play here. Molly Cobb is another one (based on Jerrie Cobb), as was Thomas Paine. Some of their fictional counterparts got stories not dissimilar from their real lives (Slayton, for example, came out from behind a desk and named himself to a mission, the real-life US-Russia "handshake"; Cobb really was a member of the Mercury 13). Curiously, most of the fictional counterparts who have had story time have met with unnatural ends: the show has killed Slayton (in a space accident), Kranz (in an explosion); Paine (on KAL 007); and Cobb doesn't seem destined for a happy ending.

As for Sally Ride, obviously we are watching a character, and so they can have her do whatever they want. But it's a character deliberately taken from a real person, so I was just musing on what that real person's survivors would think of what they had her do here.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> I'm aware, of course, of the other real-life figures in play here. Molly Cobb is another one (based on Jerrie Cobb), as was Thomas Paine. Some of their fictional counterparts got stories not dissimilar from their real lives (Slayton, for example, came out from behind a desk and named himself to a mission, the real-life US-Russia "handshake"; Cobb really was a member of the Mercury 13). Curiously, most of the fictional counterparts who have had story time have met with unnatural ends: the show has killed Slayton (in a space accident), Kranz (in an explosion); Paine (on KAL 007); and Cobb doesn't seem destined for a happy ending.
> 
> As for Sally Ride, obviously we are watching a character, and so they can have her do whatever they want. But it's a character deliberately taken from a real person, so I was just musing on what that real person's survivors would think of what they had her do here.


If I came across as critical, that was not my intention. I had the same thought a year ago about Deke Slaytors descendants seeing him portrayed.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Win Joy Jr said:


> If I came across as critical, that was not my intention. I had the same thought a year ago about Deke Slaytors descendants seeing him portrayed.


Yep, I did, too. All of them, really. I mean, Gene Kranz is still alive! If he's watching, he will have gotten to see them blow him up!


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Sepinwall's review:

'For All Mankind' Season Two Finale Takes One Giant Leap


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

cmontyburns said:


> Sepinwall's review:
> 
> 'For All Mankind' Season Two Finale Takes One Giant Leap


Agree with most all of that review with the exception of him ripping the Danny/Karen "relationship". I realize I'm in the minority here, but I still don't understand the hatred of that. (maybe it's because I'm a perv )


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

"Maybe"?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> Agree with most all of that review with the exception of him ripping the Danny/Karen "relationship". I realize I'm in the minority here, but I still don't understand the hatred of that. (maybe it's because I'm a perv )


I don't necessarily HATE it, though I think there are better ways they could have gone with the same impact both for Karen herself and the marriage. Instead they made it unnecessarily creepy when they didn't have to.

Edit: I should add that not only did they make it creepy, but they didn't address the repercussions of doing something like that, how it would affect Gordo and Tracey and so forth. In fact, they essentially wrote the whole thing off with the death of Gordo/Tracey and then the time jump (unless next season they have her involved with him, which would be interesting how they write that, but my guess is that was it, it won't be mentioned again).


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I don't necessarily HATE it, though I think there are better ways they could have gone with the same impact both for Karen herself and the marriage. Instead they made it unnecessarily creepy when they didn't have to.
> 
> Edit: I should add that not only did they make it creepy, but they didn't address the repercussions of doing something like that, how it would affect Gordo and Tracey and so forth. In fact, they essentially wrote the whole thing off with the death of Gordo/Tracey and then the time jump (unless next season they have her involved with him, which would be interesting how they write that, but my guess is that was it, it won't be mentioned again).


Sometimes things happen without repercussions other than the fact Ed was pretty grumpy during the last mission. Next season is 10 years or so later so we will find out if they are even together or if she is gone from the story altogether. She has sold the bar.

Frankly it would not surprise if this came from some personal experience with somebody in the writers room.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

zalusky said:


> Sometimes things happen without repercussions other than the fact Ed was pretty grumpy during the last mission. Next season is 10 years or so later so we will find out if they are even together or if she is gone from the story altogether. She has sold the bar.
> 
> Frankly it would not surprise if this came from some personal experience with somebody in the writers room.


I'll bet they aren't together if they are still in the show (though I'm guessing their daughter will be involved in the space program somehow, so they will be there). But again, I'll be shocked if it ever came out who she fooled around with.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

*Houston*: what I found interesting is that Tracy's current husband didn't come off as anything but nice when Karen seemed to have a hesitation right before settling selling the bar (I'm hoping her lawyer was already there). I know it was mentioned in an earlier episode, but how much did she sell the bar for? Even in 1908's dollars was it enough to set her up for life? I was getting the sense that the Bar was hers and not theirs.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I believe it was $375,000.


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Another reason I suspect Tracy is gone is that she realized space is where Ed wanted to be and she basically pushed him back into it and then once he was up there she was freaking out again so I am pretty sure she knows he is not meant for her.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> I believe it was $375,000.


Not enough for her to be set for life. Ok, speculation


Spoiler



Ok, lets add more poor choices, maybe Karen ends up with Tracy's widower?





zalusky said:


> Another reason I suspect *Tracy* is gone is that she realized space is where Ed wanted to be and she basically pushed him back into it and then once he was up there she was freaking out again so I am pretty sure she knows he is not meant for her.


Karen


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Not enough for her to be set for life. Ok, speculation
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Oops Oops! You can see who made more of an impact!


----------



## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> I believe it was $375,000.


Which in 2021 would have the spending equivalent of $925K.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Not enough for her to be set for life. Ok, speculation
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



That spoiler makes more sense to me than her son's best friend.


----------



## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

So I finally had a chance to finish this damned series. I liked it better than the 1st season, and the finale was great. I'll miss Tracy and Gordo. But they went out together which I found appropriate. 

I thought the affair was handled okay, after all there's women who hook up with a younger man and even occasionally a family friend. Too not talk about it again is I think a sign of Karen's guilt and a way to prevent a lovestruck kid from building up hope it would be an ongoing thing. 

I'm less enthused about Kelly's going off to find her birth father. Though I can understand it. The drive from Houston to Arlington (suburb of Dallas) is at least a 4 hour drive one way with no traffic, we've seen no evidence that Kelly drives, so for her to be gone all day like that was hard for me to believe.

I loved the Apollo-Soyuz handshake. Just what this show needed. I feel bad for Ellen, I wonder if she realized Pam stepped aside so Ellen could fulfill her destiny in politics.

With the 10 year jump for next season, I think the Margo/Sergey spy plot will be a moot point and maybe only mentioned. 

Does anyone know how they got the voices for Reagan, etc... for those tv clips? Did they take real speeches and repurpose them, did they use deepfake tech? However they did it it was pretty well done.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Craigbob said:


> Does anyone know how they got the voices for Reagan, etc... for those tv clips? Did they take real speeches and repurpose them, did they use deepfake tech? However they did it it was pretty well done.


Mostly just snippits of real speeches.


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Deepfake technology and a Johnny Carson imitator were definitely used for portions of the "Tonight Show" clips.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I got way behind on season two and finally got caught up last night.

What a final episode! So much going on. I'm really surprised the Soyuz/Apollo went ahead with all the stuff going down on the moon. Alternate reality/history in full effect there.

Whose boot do we see on Mars? American or Soviet? (I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that in the "For All Mankind" universe, the Soviet Union is still a thing in 1995)


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Maybe the boot is Chinese.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

wprager said:


> Maybe the boot is Chinese.


ohhhhh.... That would be an interesting twist


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

I bet it's Kelly on Mars.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Regina said:


> I bet it's Kelly on Mars.


That would be ambitious. Naval Academy to USN to NASA and Mars in less than 12 years?

Armstrong was 39 when he landed on the moon.


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> That would be ambitious. Naval Academy to USN to NASA and Mars in less than 12 years?
> 
> Armstrong was 39 when he landed on the moon.


She's pretty ambitious! And this show has a way of suspending disbelief!


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

wprager said:


> Maybe the boot is Chinese.


I was going to suggest the same, but you beat me to it


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

_FAM_ tops Alan Sepinwall's list of the Best TV Shows of 2021 So Far.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

S3 drops June 10th


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> S3 drops June 10th


Not to quibble, but "Starts". Streaming one new episode per week. And, I THINK, 10 episodes total.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Nah, being pedantic about the difference between a season-all-at-once and weekly episodic releases is the very definition of quibbling. 

Yes. I know there are still people *genuinely angry* about this. (not being able to bingewatch all at once and loathing weekly releases)


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I’d like to be able to binge but if they released all at once I’d bet the revenues are going to be less. What I’ll try to do is let this and S3 of Ted get mostly aired and then just have 1 or 2 months subscribed


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

That was kind of a nothing trailer. We already knew they were going to Mars.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Saturn_V said:


> Nah, being pedantic about the difference between a season-all-at-once and weekly episodic releases is the very definition of quibbling.
> 
> Yes. I know there are still people *genuinely angry* about this. (not being able to bingewatch all at once and loathing weekly releases)


Put me on the side of those who think it's not a minor quibble or being pedantic. For most shows, I will wait until all the episodes have dropped before watching. So clarifying the distinction here was welcomed by me and saved me the trouble of searching for the answer.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

kaszeta said:


> That was kind of a nothing trailer. We already knew they were going to Mars.


Not if you haven't seen season 2 🤣


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Apple only rarely releases entire seasons at once. Netflix is pretty much the only streamer still wedded to full-season release, and even there they are starting to play games like splitting the next Stranger Things season into two parts. Overall, one should assume that unless it’s a Netflix show, you’re not getting it all at once.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Get Your Ass to Mars!!!


----------



## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

cmontyburns said:


> Apple only rarely releases entire seasons at once. Netflix is pretty much the only streamer still wedded to full-season release, and even there they are starting to play games like splitting the next Stranger Things season into two parts. Overall, one should assume that unless it’s a Netflix show, you’re not getting it all at once.


I like when a couple of episodes are dropped at once with a new series. I’ve noticed Apple TV+ and HBO doing this.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Beryl said:


> I like when a couple of episodes are dropped at once with a new series. I’ve noticed Apple TV+ and HBO doing this.


I like that as well -- as long as I have the time to watch them before new episodes start piling up!


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

cmontyburns said:


> I like that as well -- as long as I have the time to watch them before new episodes start piling up!


I’m excited for s3…. We decided to resub for a whole year via the new offers from Costco….. $44.99


----------



## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

I hope they have a billionaire that decides he can privately do space better than NASA. (Cough) Ross Perot?


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

*S3E1 spoilers begin here...*

I contend that, in a timeline in which Gary Hart was a two-term president beginning in 1985, nuclear fusion had begun replacing fossil fuels in many uses, and widescreen flat TVs had become commonplace by 1992, not to mention the Apple Newton being released at least a year and a half "early"...

...grunge rock (and Kurt Cobain's career) would not have developed in the same way it did in our timeline.


----------



## David Ortiz (Jul 8, 2002)

trainman said:


> *S3E1 spoilers begin here...*


They had a lot of nerve putting the Stevens' son in that position after the S2 finale.


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

PAT ROBERTSON?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Seems odd that gravity was up to over 1.5, and nobody (not even the astronauts) noticed anything was wrong.

I mean, I weigh 140ish, so that would be carrying around an extra 70 pounds. I think I would have noticed long before that.

It also seems odd that there wouldn't have been a whole lot of redundancies for a system as critical as that thruster.

I know this series thrives on manufactured drama, but I don't remember it feeling quite this manufactured in the past...


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Good start to season 3


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

It's a shame there was no way to cut the fuel to the thruster any other way.


But if they could have, there would be no episode.


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Whew! That was close.


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

That was a very long burn for that thruster.

Just once I'd like to see some acknowledgement of the coriolis effects when moving up and down between the rim and the hub.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

vman41 said:


> That was a very long burn for that thruster.
> 
> Just once I'd like to see some acknowledgement of the coriolis effects when moving up and down between the rim and the hub.


That was one thing I liked about Clarke’s Rendezvous with Rama: his discussion of Coriolis effects descending from the hub to the floor (and when throwing things down from the hub)


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

vman41 said:


> That was a very long burn for that thruster.
> 
> Just once I'd like to see some acknowledgement of the coriolis effects when moving up and down between the rim and the hub.


Took me a bit to find this old footage from the Soviet space program:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417009985809129472


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I should be an executive producer. I absolutely would've had him bring the wrong wrench size!


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

I love this show. But it's stretching my suspension of disbelief this season.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

trainman said:


> *S3E1 spoilers begin here...*
> 
> I contend that, in a timeline in which Gary Hart was a two-term president beginning in 1985, nuclear fusion had begun replacing fossil fuels in many uses, and widescreen flat TVs had become commonplace by 1992, not to mention the Apple Newton being released at least a year and a half "early"...


Early adoption of flatscreens, but they never invented the Sta-Tab can top...


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

David Ortiz said:


> They had a lot of nerve putting the Stevens' son in that position after the S2 finale.


Oh, let it go....puh-leeeze!


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

I honestly think the showrunners are trolling us. KD has generated more chatter than anything else from S2. It's forcing the "human interpersonal drama" over the "space drama."

Honestly, we had a Cuban Missie Crisis on the Moon. And KD was all that anyone could talk about at season's end.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, it's Ronald Moore. The science fiction producer who has nothing but contempt for science fiction (and its fans).


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

KD?


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

I still dig RDM. That dawn on the moon scene from S2E1: "Every Little Thing" was cribbed from of his DS9 episodes.

But it's obvious that sci-fi is no longer his primary genre. Maybe that's the almost decade of Outlander peeking out.

KD=Karen Danny


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> KD=Karen Danny


ahh... yes. The "soap opera" bits with Karen and Danny. I too recall many people not liking the show spending so much time on that story


----------



## David Ortiz (Jul 8, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Oh, let it go....puh-leeeze!


No.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

This show angers up my blood. I've always been on the fence about Ed Baldwin- but "Game Changer" nudged me into the anti-Ed party.


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

Man, Ed is such a jealous man-baby! I wonder if he will still bring Kelly along...(my theory was that Kelly was the first person on Mars-pure speculation, so I am not spoilerizing)....but geez---yeah, the "Hi, Bob" club has been disbanded for life, I think... how sad! 
And what is to become of Molly Cobb?


----------



## redrouteone (Jun 16, 2001)

Guess nuclear fusion causes the time line to speed up by 25 years.


----------



## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

redrouteone said:


> Guess nuclear fusion causes the time line to speed up by 25 years.


I did like how nuclear fusion slowed global warming in this alternate timeline. One can dream..


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, it's Ronald Moore. The science fiction producer who has nothing but contempt for science fiction (and its fans).


Moore is not involved with the show day-to-day anymore. Wolpert and the other co-creator are steering the ship now.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The thing is, Molly's thinking seemed exactly correct to me...for the first ten minutes on Mars you want a test pilot; for the next ten years you want somebody more well-rounded who can shepherd a colony through its first stages.

That said, yes, Ed did not exactly handle the situation very well. Then again, neither did Margo. You don't put somebody in charge of making flight assignments and then fire them for making flight assignments. Then again, neither did Molly. Making a decision you know the boss won't like when the boss is out of town is kind of...cowardly. She should have forced the issue to her face.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The thing is, Molly's thinking seemed exactly correct to me...for the first ten minutes on Mars you want a test pilot; for the next ten years you want somebody more well-rounded who can shepherd a colony through its first stages.
> 
> That said, yes, Ed did not exactly handle the situation very well. Then again, neither did Margo. You don't put somebody in charge of making flight assignments and then fire them for making flight assignments. Then again, neither did Molly. Making a decision you know the boss won't like when the boss is out of town is kind of...cowardly. She should have forced the issue to her face.


I don't get what Margo was upset about. She berated Molly for not making a decision and then fired her for making it. The fact that she was out of town is irrelevant to me. All Margo wanted during the argument with Molly is that she (Molly) had not yet decided and to get the show on the road already.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That said, yes, Ed did not exactly handle the situation very well. Then again, neither did Margo. You don't put somebody in charge of making flight assignments and then fire them for making flight assignments.


The last astronaut office head put a raging alcoholic suffering from PTSD back in the rotation just to get a best friend out of his funk. You better believe Margo noticed that. "let's just hope he's sober" wasn't a joke. And if there's patronage or nepotism or even just a "good ole boy" network at play- Margo was totally in line in firing Molly. Especially is she's refusing "nerd oversight" and made an assignment without it and while Margo was away. 

Molly's mistake was not annoucing Ed to press. (like Deke did with the first wave of women astronauts, against Nixon's orders)


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Saturn_V said:


> The last astronaut office head put a raging alcoholic suffering from PTSD back in the rotation just to get a best friend out of his funk. You better believe Margo noticed that. "let's just hope he's sober" wasn't a joke. And if there's patronage or nepotism or even just a "good ole boy" network at play- Margo was totally in line in firing Molly. Especially is she's refusing "nerd oversight" and made an assignment without it and while Margo was away.
> 
> Molly's mistake was not annoucing Ed to press. (like Deke did with the first wave of women astronauts, against Nixon's orders)


Margo knew none of that when she fired Molly. She only knew that she picked Ed. 

And Ed's list was always mentioned as a wish list subject to approval.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Just got caught up on the season to date.

What. The. Heck? Mostly the on orbit emergency. I don’t care that Danny was an astronaut and military. At greater than 2G he was going to carry effective more than twice his weight up that ladder for at least half that climb. Plus having an available EVA suit in his size, with no indications of help to get into the suit or pre-breath O2 to purge nitrogen from his blood stream. Then rappel down the spoke to a greater than 3G at the ring, open a hatch and close a valve (which if it was an electric thruster why?) that the command level could not cut off the fuel supply at the tank?

And, a MCC console operator leaves for the moon in a week? EVA Suit operations being the bare minimum. Plus lunar alignment only provides launch opportunities 2 weeks each month (roughly).

There is a lot more to carp about, like Ed experiencing an injury that should have grounded him permanently.

And the use of the damaged hotel as the crew section for a Mars mission, where the vehicle experienced structural damage from the incident.


----------



## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

Win Joy Jr said:


> ...And the use of the damaged hotel as the crew section for a Mars mission, where the vehicle experienced structural damage from the incident.


Duct tape is stronger in this timeline?


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

nataylor said:


> And if you blow up something in the same orbit, congratulations, you’re now in orbit with a bunch of debris.


Just came across this from last seasons discussions. @nataylor did you recall saying this when the ASAT test resulted in a debris field in the ISS orbit. Which ISS had to perform an unplanned Debris Avoidance Maneuver last week to dodge a piece of debris? 

Got some lottery numbers?


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Win Joy Jr said:


> And the use of the damaged hotel as the crew section for a Mars mission, where the vehicle experienced structural damage from the incident.


I remember reading somewhere that centrifuge-habitats (a la "Endurance" from Interstellar or "Aires" from The Martian) on spaceships weren't practical. Something about Gyroscopic Precession. Not to mention the motion sickness that can be induced if the radius/RPM isn't large enough.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Saturn_V said:


> I remember reading somewhere that centrifuge-habitats (a la "Endurance" from Interstellar or "Aires" from The Martian) on spaceships weren't practical. Something about Gyroscopic Precession. Not to mention the motion sickness that can be induced if the radius/RPM isn't large enough.


Precession is not an issue if you spin-down for acceleration. And there seemed to be plenty of fuel to spin up the wheel!

The solution to the second issue is implicit in the question. The Soviet 2G simulator back in the 60s was way smaller than Karen's wheel.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> The solution to the second issue is implicit in the question. The Soviet 2G simulator back in the 60s was way smaller than Karen's wheel.


But the Soviets weren't building a hotel.

At the scale of the Polaris Hotel (~60m radius is a quick wag of mine), to get 1G you need to rotate at around 3.86 rpm (0.404 rad/s).

If you lightly tossed something (~1 m/s), throwing it with the direction of rotation will make it have an apparent reduced gravity of 9.0 m/s, whereas throwing it in the opposite direction it's around 10.6 m/s. You'd quickly notice that difference, and be disoriented by it, although astronauts could likely train and get used to it.

And going up ladders or elevators, if you went more than a creeping speed, you'd notice a strong sideways force.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

kaszeta said:


> But the Soviets weren't building a hotel.
> 
> At the scale of the Polaris Hotel (~60m radius is a quick wag of mine), to get 1G you need to rotate at around 3.86 rpm (0.404 rad/s).
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like you have never been on a ship at sea. These things certainly are not deal-breakers, just stuff they'd have to get used to. The guys in the Russian simulator couldn't play darts or throw a ball, but those aren't requirements for survival.


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

Guy Fleegman said:


> Duct tape is stronger in this timeline?


Have you not read _The Martian_?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Just caught up on S2 and the first few eps of S3. Most of my comments have already been mentioned, but I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Soviet "blockade" of the moon with a single ship. Seems like that would be a pretty easy blockade to get around. Just insert into lunar orbit when Buran is on the other side of the moon and the two ships will likely never see each other. If Pathfinder and Sea Dragon were in orbit on the opposite side of Buran, then there's literally nothing Buran could do to stop Sea Dragon from delivering its cargo to the surface.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Well, I guess I'll start it for last week's episode: *From here on will be spoilers for S03E03 "All In"* 

They are really hitting home on Commercial vs NASA Human Space Flight, and how the "New Space" companies are throwing a lot of money at experienced NASA staff. But it also showed Karen didn't really know her audience. Alida is "NASA" through and through. Called it last season that Aleida was going to be a Flight Director. In this universe, privately owned space rocks are a thing.

Danny Stevens is becoming more of a train wreck embodying the worst traits of his parents. Danielle Poole was correct for bouncing him from her crew. Ed throwing him a lifeline before he had to come clean to his wife allowed him to continue dodging bullets, like not being formally arrested for trespassing at the home of his departed parents. His story may be finally having consequences to his actions. But has dar as we have seen, he is acting that this oppertunity was made available based on his capabilities and not as a result of his screw-ups.

Hated that the Margo being compromised storyline culminated with her being blackmailed to hand over the nuclear secrets to the Soviets. I can only hope that she went to the FBI and they delivered false info. If not, I see her downfall being very public. And maybe even dragging President Ellen Wilson down with her. As much as Margo was shaken by the von Braun scandal, Alida may face the same crisis if Margo falls.

Ed Baldwin. Not sure how his story will play out. He is running on ego, not thinking except in his "old NASA" mode. Bringing Danny Stevens onboard will not end well. Either by his learning that it was Danny who was involved in Karen's affair, or by his failure due to his mental state, or by Ed attaching his friendship with Gordo on Danny. Unless the ensuing 2 years had Danny back in recovery. Gordo and Tracy's legacy are very much albatross's around their kids necks.

Kelli Baldwin. Another "NASA" person who has the bigger picture in sight, the search for life. Not surprised she turned down flying with Ed, the Helios goal isn't the same as NASA goals. Kelli was able to drive Danielle into what the correct requirement of the mission should be, the science. 

Karen Baldwin. Her pausing at the elevator shaft where Sam died tells me that he was more than just a business partner. 

"The Race". Ok, dramatically, the (somewhat) concurrent launches of the 3 were for the dramatic plot, NASA COULD have a head start since they are leaving Lunar orbit while Helios is leaving Earth orbit, with the Soviets having to get off the ground first. Unless the Moon is on the opposite side of the Earth at launch. I might need to see if the tools I have access to can go back to 1994 Mars launch windows.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> "The Race". Ok, dramatically, the (somewhat) concurrent launches of the 3 were for the dramatic plot, NASA COULD have a head start since they are leaving Lunar orbit while Helios is leaving Earth orbit, with the Soviets having to get off the ground first. Unless the Moon is on the opposite side of the Earth at launch. I might need to see if the tools I have access to can go back to 1994 Mars launch windows.


Seems like the Mars launch window would be more than just a couple of days, and if so, then there would be time to wait for the moon to be in the right position to be an advantage rather than having to launch from 250,000 miles farther away.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Karen Baldwin. Her pausing at the elevator shaft where Sam died tells me that he was more than just a business partner.


Weren't they married? Or am I misremembering?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

David Platt said:


> Weren't they married? Or am I misremembering?


They never indicated that they were married. Neither were wearing a ring. And it would be kind of odd (or at least worth calling out) if Sam married the ex-wife of one astronaut, then turned around and married the ex-wife of another astronaut (who was the best friend of the first astronaut). Especially when Ex-wife One and Ex-wife Two were also very good friends.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seems like the Mars launch window would be more than just a couple of days, and if so, then there would be time to wait for the moon to be in the right position to be an advantage rather than having to launch from 250,000 miles farther away.


My impression is the launch window for a Mars direct transfer is maybe a month every ~2 years? (I am not versed in interplanatary considerations) And depending on when in the window you launch will drive some trade-offs. I'll dig in to Mars 2020 materials for the window. Add in that they were launching from Jamestown base.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Seems like the Mars launch window would be more than just a couple of days, and if so, then there would be time to wait for the moon to be in the right position to be an advantage rather than having to launch from 250,000 miles farther away.


Compared to the interplanetary distance, that's nothing.

The big issue is actually velocity, and in that case the moon launch of NASA is _slightly_ advantageous to the LEO launch of Phoenix[1]. delta-V from Moon to an Earth-Mars Hohmann orbit transit is around 3 km/s. delta-V from LEO to an Earth-Mars Hohmann orbit transit is around 3.6 km/s. That apparent Soviet ground launch has a much, much higher delta-V needed, around 13 km/s

If they are all launching around the same time, they are basically taking more or less same transfer orbit to get there. So far they are a bit vague on the actual details of the relative missions (and I expect the drama to win out over technical orbital mechanics[2]), so it's hard to tell more, aside from a few top-level concepts:

1. Unless the Russians are doing an Earth orbit rendezvous, they are going to be a very lean mission compared to NASA or Helios.
2. At least the NASA vehicle has the potential for aerobraking at Mars, which isn't really an option for the gigantic former space hotel.
3. Wonder if the NASA or Soviet missions have capability for spin gravity. At least the Helios mission can potentially great reduce complications on physiology (if you are sending an entire ring habitat, you can spend most or all of the transit at high enough apparent G to avoid most of the low gravity effects, and potentially even transition to Mars gravity towards the last part of the mission for familiarization)
4. We know that NASA's already got their resupply and base equipment enroute or potentially on the ground already[3], whereas Helios is taking everything with them. Don't know that the Soviet plan is.

[1] The biggest gain I actually see for a lunar launch is that they've nominally got better access to He-3 fuel.
[2] If you want a rather good SF novel with respect to orbital mechanics and their quirks, John Sanford's _Saturn Run_ has competing manned missions to Saturn, and he got some very good orbital mechanics consulting on the topic.
[3] I'd have to look at what a Venus assist could actually do in this scenario


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## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> They never indicated that they were married. Neither were wearing a ring. And it would be kind of odd (or at least worth calling out) if Sam married the ex-wife of one astronaut, then turned around and married the ex-wife of another astronaut (who was the best friend of the first astronaut). Especially when Ex-wife One and Ex-wife Two were also very good friends.


Well we also have Karen sleeping with Tracy's son so married on not if AppleTV+ didn't want this show Telemundo would have.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The implication was that the Russians were never going to make the window unless Margo gave them the information they needed. So the fact that they launched is supposed to tell us that she did give in to the pressure.

Up until that point, Margo could've said "we got back from the Russians as much as we gave, and I never gave them the sensitive stuff". Not she's a full-fledged spy/compromised.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Being a drama, I expect that the Soviets will have some sort of surprise that they pull that will apparently get them there first, and then both the NASA and Helios teams will try to figure out how to catch up.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

David Platt said:


> Weren't they married? Or am I misremembering?


I think I speculated about that last season.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

@kaszeta Thanks for doing the heavy lifting.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Win Joy Jr said:


> @kaszeta Thanks for doing the heavy lifting.


I'm resisting the temptation to bust out the old Orbital Mechanics textbook.

In the real world at least, you can do a fast transfer orbit to Mars and get there in only 5 months instead of 9, for about 60% more fuel, but you'd have to leave a bit earlier. Most any trick that could get one of the missions to Mars substantially quicker than the others would have to be played relatively early in the mission and require a lot of fuel.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

That was a big heaping bucket of space drama. Nice to see the soap opera stuff take a backseat.


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## redrouteone (Jun 16, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> That was a big heaping bucket of space drama. Nice to see the soap opera stuff take a backseat.


I was thinking the same thing. Nice to actually see some space in the space race.

I am really curious to see what happens now. I can’t imagine the US crew is just going to go home and let Helios be the only ones to make it to Mars.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

redrouteone said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Nice to actually see some space in the space race.
> 
> I am really curious to see what happens now. I can’t imagine the US crew is just going to go home and let Helios be the only ones to make it to Mars.


Well, for one thing it looks like the NASA team is going to need some rescuing of their own...

Helios crew hackers regain control of the ship?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Well, that didn’t go well.

Decent episode. I wasn’t expecting a solar sail.

(I don’t think it was nearly large enough, but artistic license, and they did a decent job showing a plausible deployment mechanism)


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

...and Margo just got made (or at least the first seeds of doubt are planted) that she knows more about the Russian rocket than she should.

If they start looking closely at the Russian ship, they will realize that there is a spy inside NASA.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

"Elon Musk" is gonna win.. Probably

But good chance there will be some disaster that impacts Helios.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> "Elon Musk" is gonna win.. Probably
> 
> But good chance there will be some disaster that impacts Helios.


They will all end up together


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> "Elon Musk" is gonna win.. Probably
> 
> But good chance there will be some disaster that impacts Helios.


I suspect the disaster of the nasa ship being critically damaged while having the daughter of the Helios commander on board is all they need.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Well, NASA just had "A Bad Day". 2 crew dead (any death in space would be horrific, but seeing Sylvie Kaplan get absolutely crushed between the hulls was disturbing, especially when the visor burst. Then Clarke Halliday get hit with a cable (Um, writers, you used that device just 2 episodes ago). And the Cosmonaut attached to the tether meeting his demise.

You could see the uneasiness and disagreement in Karen's and Bill's body language when it was "decided" to let NASA handle the rescue attempt. Again, showing "New Space" not holding the ideals of NASA. I loved Danielle's comment to Ed (paraphrasing) "I work for the United States Government and you work for an a**hole".

There are going to be ramifications to the disabling of the Phoenix by the ground, Ed is going to go ballistic. Also I wonder how his medical condition requiring injections will play out. We've seen him treating himself twice now. I'm curios how the NASA flight surgeon was unaware of whatever his condition is.

The abject hatred from the Soviet Cosmonauts toward Rolan Baranov (the defector at Jamestown turned Astronaut) isn't going to end well.

Danny Stevens isn't making friends aboard the Phoenix. Jimmy Stevens is making friends on Earth, but that will come back to bite him and others. The specter of their parents continue to weigh them down.

Aleida noticing Margo's detailed knowledge of the Russian Soviets nuclear wessel (sorry) engines is going to play out some way. Did Margo provide the Soviets with an inferior / earlier deign that limited its performance?

Spoiling my speculation


Spoiler



The NASA ship is too damaged to make it back to Earth safely. Helios / Dev will take a MASSIVE PR hit for not rendering aid to the Russians Soviets and will have to rendezvous and take onboard the survivors from both vehicles. With the "First" out of the way, then it will be survival on Mars. Is Helios is the Grasshopper, NASA the Ant?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Win Joy Jr said:


> There are going to be ramifications to the disabling of the Phoenix by the ground, Ed is going to go ballistic. Also I wonder how his medical condition requiring injections will play out. We've seen him treating himself twice now. I'm curios how the NASA flight surgeon was unaware of whatever his condition is.


They showed the label in this episode. He's taking steroids. (Specifically, nandrolone decanoate)


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> They showed the label in this episode. He's taking steroids. (Specifically, nandrolone decanoate)


Thanks! I missed that. Looking it up I can see what Ed's endgame just may be.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

this is one of those shows that gets better each season


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I love this show since the start, I know it's ridiculous in a lot of ways, but I still love it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't think Margo gave them an inferior design. The Russians pushed the engine way past its specs (the guy that talked to Ed's daughter said as much). 

So we will see a dramatic confrontation between Ed and Elon Musk, another software update will give him back control, and he will make sure no more updates are sent to remain in control. Everyone will be on board Helios, with the tension between the defector and the Russians taking center stage...


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I think it's possible we see a coup inside Helios from Karen and Bill, they might release the controls to Ed especially once it is clear that Karen's daughter is also in danger.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Or somebody on board could hack control back...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> They showed the label in this episode. He's taking steroids. (Specifically, nandrolone decanoate)





Win Joy Jr said:


> Thanks! I missed that. Looking it up I can see what Ed's endgame just may be.


I don't think it would be uncommon for someone of Ed's age to be taking testosterone supplements without any adverse effects. Heck, I'm a lot younger than he is supposed to be in this season and I've taken them before. He's not boosting his T levels to gain muscle mass like a body builder, but is instead just taking them to maintain his abilities which would otherwise be naturally declining.

But obviously from a TV writing perspective, they're not going to put that in there and then just have it not result in something dramatic. So I suspect Win Joy is right that we're likely to see some kind of 'roid rage incident. Maybe it will be triggered by Danny finally admitting to Ed that it was Danny that Karen slept with that spelled the beginning of the end for Ed and Karen's marriage.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

kaszeta said:


> (I don’t think it was nearly large enough, but artistic license, and they did a decent job showing a plausible deployment mechanism)


Thank-you. I had the same thought (except for giving them a pass; how much could the CGI for an appropriately large sail cost?)


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> But obviously from a TV writing perspective, they're not going to put that in there and then just have it not result in something dramatic. So I suspect Win Joy is right that we're likely to see some kind of 'roid rage incident. Maybe it will be triggered by Danny finally admitting to Ed that it was Danny that Karen slept with that spelled the beginning of the end for Ed and Karen's marriage.


I am not thinking 'Road-Rage', that specific steroid is to combat anemia (if the DuckDuckGo-Fu was working) so I am thinking that he potentially could get injured and die from an otherwise non-life-threatening injury. Tragedy will be that Kelly is there, and Danny will have revelation that while his parents died in the service of their nation he did not witness it first hand, and was probably only told after their deaths. Kelly will witness her dad die in service of an "a**hole" (Thank you Danielle Poole and the writers for that).

But the mission Ed is commanding is going to have to change, at least until Mars. My bet is that whatever Phoenix has to do rescue the surviving crew of the NASA Sojourner One’ and the Soviet Mars-94 vehicles will result that the mission is now a one-way trip and the combined crew will need to survive. Plus Ed will need to figure out how to get everyone to just get along, especially some seriously grumpy Soviets. Phoenix has the volume to house several additional crew (4 surviving Soviets, still trying to figure out the crew complement of Sojourner One), but what about life support consumables, water reclamation, and a whole host of other items. NASA already pre-deployed all the supplies for its planned Mars base via the gravity assist from Venus. I'm speculating the Russians carried everything in the Mars-94 vehicle.

One question popped into my mind just now. How realistic is a direct abort at this point in the mission? Paging @kaszeta to the nearest Comm Box.

Question: Should abject speculation of future plot points be Spoiler Tagged?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Didn't we see a news report in this episode that North Korea sent an unmanned rocket with supplies? Maybe they'll be able to use those.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

No. Speculations don't need tags.

Is Danny second in command? I know they won't kill-off Ed, but that is a nightmare scenario should Ed be incapacitated for any length of time.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Didn't we see a news report in this episode that North Korea sent an unmanned rocket with supplies? Maybe they'll be able to use those.


I thought the North Korea rocket was the one that failed and ended up crippling Polaris (the SpaceHotel)?


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Is Danny second in command? I know they won't kill-off Ed, but that is a nightmare scenario should Ed be incapacitated for any length of time.


I'm sure Gordo and Tracy felt the same way


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I thought the North Korea rocket was the one that failed and ended up crippling Polaris (the SpaceHotel)?


I just rewatched that scene. Here's what the newscaster said:

"According to sources at the Pentagon, the North Korean space program sent their own unmanned probe to the Red Planet in the weeks prior to the launch of Sojourner 1. The North Korean program has struggled to keep pace with other nations and is still on the defensive after debris from one of their failed rockets brought about the Polaris . . ." 

and then the channel changes and we don't hear the end of that sentence. So if it's just an unmanned probe, it probably doesn't have supplies that can be used, but maybe that will be the big surprise of the season. They'll think they're about to die and then they find the landing site of the NK ship and it's got tons of supplies they can use.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I like that one of the big alternative timeline things is right in the show, instead of just, it happened, Gary Hart is President whatever, Ellen Wilson becoming President has direct ramifications in the show.

-smak-


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I just rewatched that scene. Here's what the newscaster said:
> 
> "According to sources at the Pentagon, the North Korean space program sent their own unmanned probe to the Red Planet in the weeks prior to the launch of Sojourner 1. The North Korean program has struggled to keep pace with other nations and is still on the defensive after debris from one of their failed rockets brought about the Polaris . . ."
> 
> and then the channel changes and we don't hear the end of that sentence. So if it's just an unmanned probe, it probably doesn't have supplies that can be used, but maybe that will be the big surprise of the season. They'll think they're about to die and then they find the landing site of the NK ship and it's got tons of supplies they can use.


Forgot about that. With so much going on, I'll forgive myself. I might need to start watching it twice before posting.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

smak said:


> I like that one of the big alternative timeline things is right in the show, instead of just, it happened, Gary Hart is President whatever, Ellen Wilson becoming President has direct ramifications in the show.
> 
> -smak-


When Ellen was giving her speech in the MCC FCR, my read was it was just words, she was no longer connected to those people in that room. Aleida saying to Margo "She's one of us" with Margo replying "Not anymore". And Margo was right.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Win Joy Jr said:


> But the mission Ed is commanding is going to have to change, at least until Mars. My bet is that whatever Phoenix has to do rescue the surviving crew of the NASA Sojourner One’ and the Soviet Mars-94 vehicles will result that the mission is now a one-way trip and the combined crew will need to survive.


That's an interesting (and plausible) take on things:

1. Sojourner has had to rendezvous with Mars 94. We already know that consumed enough fuel that they don't have the safety margin needed to complete the mission.
2. Sojourner has been involved with a collision with Mars 94, so there's a good chance the reentry shield isn't good for Earth reentry, and may not even be good for Mars. If they land on Mars, they likely don't have the fuel for taking the full complement home.
3. Sojourner will likely be exceeding margin on consumables with the additional cosmonauts, although depending on how the cable impact played out, they may only be netting 2 additional crew.

That said, there are so many unknowns here, and they do play fast and loose with physics and orbital mechanics[1]. 

So I suspect the following:

1. Sojourner can't complete a mission, and with the abort options plus damage, at risk for not being able to return to Earth. It may be able to get to Mars, if they can get a ride home with someone else.
2. That Phoenix will have to rendezvous with Sojourner. The combined mission can make it to Mars and land.
3. They'll have to figure out some combination of resupply and adaptation to get everyone back home again, or survive for a followon mission.



> I'm speculating the Russians carried everything in the Mars-94 vehicle.


I expect that the Soviets at a minimum did an earth-orbit rendezvous and refuel. SSTO to Mars with return ability would require huge enough delta V that if they had that, they could easily beat everyone else to Mars with a small mission.



> One question popped into my mind just now. How realistic is a direct abort at this point in the mission? Paging @kaszeta to the nearest Comm Box.


Realistically, I think any feasible manned mission to Mars needs to have some capability and reserve for a fueled direct abort. The fuel required isn't that big compared to slowing to low orbit around Mars or taking off again from Mars, so there are a lot of random options here.

1. Direct abort itself is a bit difficult due to orbital phase differences. Relatively easy to get back to Earth capture from a transfer orbit. Getting there quickly and actually rendezvousing with Earth is a bit more difficult, becoming more-so the closer you get to Mars. You've got two choices: catch up with Earth, or let Earth come around. For the former, early in the mission (<3 weeks), it's actually pretty easy to do this, but quickly becomes _huge_ after that. This is probably the most viable approach for an early abort, with around 3-6 km/s impulse needed to get back to Earth and either re-orbit or reenter. This isn't particularly fast, even when done early, usually about 2x as long as the mission duration so far, but it's better than most of the other options. 
2. Next up, direct abort, but let the earth come around. The good news, this is also pretty energy efficient (2.5-9 km/s), and usually works until just short of MOI, when this becomes uneconomical, and you need to get more creative. The bad side? Time is not your friend. You'll be home 10-14 months after launch, vs 21 for the standard mission
3. Free return trajectories for Earth-Mars aren't generally feasible. For the standard low-energy Hohmann transfer, Earth is in the wrong place, so a "free return" trajectory would bring you back to Earth's orbit with Earth being several months ahead or behind you. Actual free return trajectories only show up every few years, and take a lot more delta V than a standard mission. I don't think '94 was one of those years. On the rare cases they are available, it's around 16-18 months.
4. Even an assisted flyby of Mars is difficult to make it work, but it's possible; the idea is that if you abort well after TMI, but before MOI[2], you can tweak your trajectory to get a Mars gravity assist and immediately start your return, but it's hard to do this and still meet up with Earth.... remember, during a standard Mars mission you are essentially spending 3 months at Mars waiting for the planets to come back into alignment for the return trajectory, for a total trip of around 21 months. Again, option 1 is to catch up with Earth. You're almost certainly not going to have delta-V for that, and even the best option for that takes 8 months to get back, or around 4 months early. Option 2 is to wait for Earth to come around, and the delta V for that is small (~2 km/s) but the orbit for that is a huge looping orbit, and you're going to take more than 3 years to get back. I don't think that's gonna work.
5. If you have the fuel budget like Phoenix and aren't depending on refueling, and have enough fuel for the normal TMI return flight, doing the default mission without landing isn't the worst idea. No additional delta V, 3 months of orbital science, and come home.
6. There are a lot of neat tricks, however. You know that Venus Gravity Assist they used for the resupply mission? That trick works in the other direction, so after a few weeks, return via Venus for both the gravity assist in slowdown and correcting to get the right orbital phase becomes better than direct abort. Delta-V for this will vary year to year, but ranges from ~2 km/s to 6 km/s, and 20 month mission time. Saves only a little fuel vs actually going to Mars and spending 3 months there, but gets you home slightly faster.

I don't really know what the nuclear propulsion and methane options are for the various vehicles, but with traditional designs, having anything larger than 3 km/s leftover after TMI is probably a no-go (3 km/s is also about what you need to orbit Mars from a Hohmann TMI, BTW)

So yeah, especially when looking at consumables, I think a Mars mission _needs_ the ability for a fueled direct abort, and it's not really that much more than the fuel you'd need for a Mars return anyways.

Add in the complication that for Sojourner to unveil the solar sail mid-voyage[3], they'd essentially be boosting to an orbit with a perihelion past Mars, and do a larger delta-V correction with engines at arrival (they can't do anything useful with the sail at that point), so they'd have to burn even more for a direct return. 



> Question: Should abject speculation of future plot points be Spoiler Tagged?


Uninformed speculation I think is fine. If you've seen and recall details from season trailers or teasers, I'd spoiler it or keep quiet. So far, for actual aired episodes, I think we know little:

1. _someone_ lands in '94 on Mars.
2. I strongly suspect that someone includes someone that's not Helios

[1] They play fast and loose with orbital mechanics here, but realistically, if they all started out on a Hohmann transfer at the same time, if the solar sail were to do anything really useful for Sojourner, they'd be on a different orbital path now than Mars 94 and have to burn a lot of fuel to do that rendezvous.
[2] TMI: Trans-Mars Injection. MOI: Mars Orbital Injection.
[3] I know, I'm trying to let the poor orbital mechanics slide...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

why would the Koreans send supplies on an unmanned rocket?


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## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

What have we seen with the Chinese space program up to this point?


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Anubys said:


> why would the Koreans send supplies on an unmanned rocket?


They claimed it was unmanned. We, the audience, do not know that as a fact, yet.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Didn't NASA send an unmanned rocket with supplies?


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## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

Yes. That was the ship sent with the Venus gravity boost to get there just before the crew


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Didn't NASA send an unmanned rocket with supplies?


Good point. They sent supplies ahead of the manned mission. I guess the Koreans could be doing the same thing...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Good point. They sent supplies ahead of the manned mission. I guess the Koreans could be doing the same thing...


In this FAM universe, have we heard whether the North Koreans have even got anything successfully to orbit, let alone to the moon? Seems odd they'd be sending a probe to Mars when they haven't even accomplished those other milestones.

Also, if the US/USSR/Helios ships have been underway for weeks now, would the North Koreans have missed the transfer window if they haven't already launched a manned ship?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> In this FAM universe, have we heard whether the North Koreans have even got anything successfully to orbit, let alone to the moon? Seems odd they'd be sending a probe to Mars when they haven't even accomplished those other milestones.
> 
> Also, if the US/USSR/Helios ships have been underway for weeks now, would the North Koreans have missed the transfer window if they haven't already launched a manned ship?


The original American plan was to launch the supply ship during this window and the manned expedition during the next (two years later). Perhaps Korea was planning to mirror them, and simply couldn't move the manned portion forward..?


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

kaszeta said:


> That's an interesting (and plausible) take on things:
> 
> 2. Sojourner has been involved with a collision with Mars 94, so there's a good chance the reentry shield isn't good for Earth reentry, and may not even be good for Mars. If they land on Mars, they likely don't have the fuel for taking the full complement home.


The don't technically need to do an Earth re-entry though right? They have a moon base where they could send a local shuttle to pick people up. Obviously they'd still have to get to the moon, I'm just pointing out that not being able to land on earth isn't a big deal in their timeline.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

zordude said:


> The don't technically need to do an Earth re-entry though right? They have a moon base where they could send a local shuttle to pick people up. Obviously they'd still have to get to the moon, I'm just pointing out that not being able to land on earth isn't a big deal in their timeline.


Good point, actually.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

S3E5 spoilers start….

Well, Sojourner made it down, having been able to refuel from Mars 94.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

zordude said:


> The don't technically need to do an Earth re-entry though right? They have a moon base where they could send a local shuttle to pick people up. Obviously they'd still have to get to the moon, I'm just pointing out that not being able to land on earth isn't a big deal in their timeline.


Yeah they actually departed from the Moon, so it makes sense that they would actually be returning to the Moon.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> Yeah they actually departed from the Moon, so it makes sense that they would actually be returning to the Moon.


That’s actually harder; you can’t aerobrake on the moon.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

How inspiring!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Now Ed is forever going to be known as the man who could have been first on the moon and first on Mars, but he got too cautious at the last second (even if the caution was entirely warranted).


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Ok, some thoughts. First, I was totally wrong on my speculations last week  I would love to know the orbital velocity they are flying at for the transfer to Mars being measured in weeks, not months.

*Phoenix:*

Danny is still on his trajectory to obtain a higher order a**hole. Loved Danny's discomfort when Ed said if her ever found out who Karen had the affair with they would be nothing left. Don't hang around an airlock Danny. You don't know what Ed is capable of (anyone remember Jamestown and the Soviet Cosmonaut in Season 1)?
Danny also played the bully to get the admin password and hacking Ed's communications is a huge breach of trust, when Ed finds out there is no recovery.
Ed and Karen reconciling? I think Karen has the outward persona of hating Space but can still be proud of her ex-husbands conduct in response to the accident.
With age comes wisdom. There was too much risk of crashing that makes being "first" not that important. A 20 year younger Ed would have gone for it, like Danny wanted to. 
*Sojourner:*

Really, no damage? And they happen to have the proper hose to do a fuel transfer? If it was intended to refuel on Mars that hose would have been with the supplies on the cargo mission.
Yep, angry Cosmonaut trying to be the first to step on Mars. Tensions will continue. Glad Danni was having to part of the insubordination. 
*JSC:*

Guess I was "sort" of right. Margo gave them the design of the nuclear engine, but did not update the variables as NASA fine tuned the engine. 
Yep, the Soviets continue to blackmail Margo, demanding NASA hand over resources, even after rescuing the Soviet crew. 
Aleida did not drop the digging, proving the transfer of the design to the Soviets. Margo is only delaying her downfall by kicking the can down the road and trying to stall Aleida, she will not wait forever for Margo to act.
Not sure if it is a story point or just bad CGI, but Gorbachov looking away during Ellens remarks is telling if it is a plot point.
Karen getting stoned with Wayne was interesting. He is still an "Astronauts spouse", and the friendship he and Karen started 20 years prior. Nice touch. 
It was interesting that Dev didn't say a word after Ed aborted the landing of "Popeye". I was waiting for him to explode after losing.
Kelly and the Cosmonaut? Well, if we can have "Mrs. Robinson" last season, will the show runners give us the first human born not on Earth?


----------



## VegasVic (Nov 22, 2002)

Good episode but the Kelly/Cosmonaut story is dumb.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I rolled my eyes at Margo's surprise that the Russians would blackmail her again after they made a deal that the last time was "the last time". 

Is anybody really that stupid?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I rolled my eyes at Margo's surprise that the Russians would blackmail her again after they made a deal that the last time was "the last time".
> 
> Is anybody really that stupid?


Then again, you'd have to be a special kind of idealistic to make the deal she made in the first place...

(And I do mean "special.")


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then again, you'd have to be a special kind of idealistic to make the deal she made in the first place...
> 
> (And I do mean "special.")


In a way, her sharing has actually fueled advancement, at least according to the show. We already know what happens when one side obliterates the other. 

People lose interest and advancement stalls.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

vertigo235 said:


> In a way, her sharing has actually fueled advancement, at least according to the show. We already know what happens when one side obliterates the other.
> 
> People lose interest and advancement stalls.


Clearly, you are under the influence of The Shadows and not The Vorlons!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then again, you'd have to be a special kind of idealistic to make the deal she made in the first place...
> 
> (And I do mean "special.")


Up until then, I think she would've just lost her job. With a good lawyer and the right connections, she could've made a case that she got as much or more than what she gave. Until she gave them the rocket design, a well-connected woman like her could've been saved. 

Now, she will be in even hotter water when the Russians kill that engineer who discovered the theft in order to keep the secret from getting out.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> In a way, her sharing has actually fueled advancement, at least according to the show. We already know what happens when one side obliterates the other.
> 
> People lose interest and advancement stalls.


But, the converse would be that she is responsible for the deaths since she gave them the tech.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Win Joy Jr said:


> But, the converse would be that she is responsible for the deaths since she gave them the tech.


Certainly a much more material argument since it has the benefit of history (in this case), it's really hard to argue any benefits of one's actions if you could not foresee the alternative result.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> Certainly a much more material argument since it has the benefit of history (in this case), it's really hard to argue any benefits of one's actions if you could not foresee the alternative result.


But in this case, it's hard even without the benefit of history not to foresee that committing treason will not have a good end...


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But in this case, it's hard even without the benefit of history not to foresee that committing treason will not have a good end...


Oh yeah for sure, she's toast and she should have never done it. I'm just saying that for the story's sake, it makes a believable 'race' and pushes the Americans to advance science etc.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> But, the converse would be that she is responsible for the deaths since she gave them the tech.


I don't think that's on Margo. They knowingly pushed their equipment past its capability. That would be like saying Toyota is responsible if I intentionally drive a Camry into a bridge support.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think that's on Margo. They knowingly pushed their equipment past its capability. That would be like saying Toyota is responsible if I intentionally drive a Camry into a bridge support.


But, if Margo hadn't given them the tech, they would not have been in the race to begin with, so the accident would not have happened.

I know I may be splitting hairs.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

I got behind and am now up through episode 4. I've read as much of the thread as I dared, but I'm not sure new episode warnings have been reliably posted so I stopped a page or two back.

But through episode four -- wow! I thought E04 was maybe a little bit drowsy up until the last fifteen minutes and then, holy smokes.

What an incredible job the show has done setting bombs and then lighting fuses. We've got Danny the powder keg on the space hotel. He seems certain to face off with Ed at some point. We've got Ed now seeing his boss as the antagonist, locked out of his own ship. (And that's a move that clearly isn't going to end well.) We've got Karen and Dev now (presumably) at odds within Helios, and probably Bill vs. the rest of the control room as well. We've got the Russians boarding Sojourner only to find their former comrade, the defector. We've got video of the Russian nuclear engine being sent back to Earth, waiting for someone to discover how it looks suspiciously like the American design. And I feel like there were also one or two other "we've gots" that I am not thinking of right now.

Need to get episode five in before this week's new release so I am all caught up. What a ride.

ETA: I'm not one to quibble with (or even notice, probably) technical accuracy issues in this domain, but the tether between the two ships seemed to be an obvious plot contrivance. Why wouldn't they just EVA jetpack over? (Because then we couldn't crash the ships.)


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I finished season 2 last night. It sucked that Tracey died but I had been hoping Gordo would find a way to kick the bucket from about halfway through season 1.

I continually got a chuckle out of how closing the moon habitat's doors kept the bad one sixth gravity out.

It bugs me at how cavalierly the astronauts for missions were chosen. No way in the universe a fat, drunk Gordo should have been chosen for a months long lunar mission anyway, especially cohabitating in such a small base with his divorced wife. That's just asking for trouble but he writers whitewashed it by giving Gordo a redemption arc and having Tracey be dumb enough to reconcile with him to the end.

I'll start season 3 today.


----------



## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

I hope Danny's pettiness makes his hoped for death, spectacular, painful, and in no way redeeming.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

Meh to S3E6,

I mean it had about 5 minutes of interesting material but was for the most part nothing that couldn’t have been included in another episode. Typical mid season stretching it episode.

edit: this explains it well









’The Boys’ Creator Slams ‘10-Hour Movie’ Style Of Television-Making


’The Boys’ creator Eric Kripke is not a fan of streaming shows being touted as ’10-hour movies.’




uproxx.com


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Got caught up...

Margo should eventually be toast but my guess is that the writers will pull some oddball plot point out of their armpits and she will not only not be exposed but she'll somehow gain from her treason.

I hate everything about the Danny/Karen subplot. I hope Danny becomes the first dead human on Mars and I hope it happens soon.

The horrible wig on the female news anchor cracks me up every time.

The makeup artists did a good job of ageing Karen/Shantel VanSanten


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Kelly is totally getting pregnant on Mars. I think there may be enough time left that the baby would be born on Mars too


Did the Russians really find liquid water?

Don't ask, don't tell. I guess not everything is gonna be alternate history.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> Kelly is totally getting pregnant on Mars. I think there may be enough time left that the baby would be born on Mars too


That seems logical. There's been a good bit of personal drama on the show so far but that just seems like a ratings grab attempt to me. I like the show but I'm not sure I'll want to stick around for the soap opera angst the show will turn to if/when that happens.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Got caught up...
> 
> Margo should eventually be toast but my guess is that the writers will pull some oddball plot point out of their armpits and she will not only not be exposed but she'll somehow gain from her treason.


I think they're setting up exactly that by showing the importance of the information she is getting from the other side.

Changing topics: I so hate these sex scenes where the only possible outcome is a concussion. Who the heck has sex like that?! especially if you're trying to be secretive about it...yeah, let's slam each other against the walls...that's so hot!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

A question about military rankings. Ed has been referred to as an admiral but he worked for NASA for umpteen years. Was he still in the navy in order to get promoted to the rank of admiral? Do you have to be in command of a group of people to be an admiral? Is it one of those titles that you seemingly get for life once you attain it like "mayor" or "judge" etc.. even though you haven't done it in decades?


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

jsmeeker said:


> Kelly is totally getting pregnant on Mars. I think there may be enough time left that the baby would be born on Mars too


The baby thing really bugs me. Definitely more soap opera than space opera- which is getting tougher to tolerate. 

I hope the show addresses the scientific questions a pregnancy off-earth would raise. What does 1/3 gravity do to fetal development? Does the exposure to cosmic radiation exposure impact the pregnancy? If it happened at Jamestown, they'd send the astro-mom straight home. Would they attempt that with Kelly?

But I'm also wondering if we're jumping another decade in season 4. We have four eps left in this season, doesn't seem like enough time to complete the story of Mars and back- unless they bum-rush the rest of it in the next four episodes.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Guy Fleegman said:


> I hope Danny's pettiness makes his hoped for death, spectacular, painful, and in no way redeeming.


Soon would be nice too.


----------



## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> A question about military rankings. Ed has been referred to as an admiral but he worked for NASA for umpteen years. Was he still in the navy in order to get promoted to the rank of admiral? Do you have to be in command of a group of people to be an admiral? Is it one of those titles that you seemingly get for life once you attain it like "mayor" or "judge" etc.. even though you haven't done it in decades?


From Active Military Applicants | NASA  is says "*If selected, military personnel are detailed to NASA for a selected period of time." *so it seems they remain in their military branch while with NASA.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> A question about military rankings. Ed has been referred to as an admiral but he worked for NASA for umpteen years. Was he still in the navy in order to get promoted to the rank of admiral? Do you have to be in command of a group of people to be an admiral? Is it one of those titles that you seemingly get for life once you attain it like "mayor" or "judge" etc.. even though you haven't done it in decades?


In our world, Military people in the Astronaut Corps are generally in detached duty, so they are still active duty.

And back in the day, your first space flight generally resulted in a promotion, at least until hitting Captain/Commander. Even then, some oddness, like Apollo 12 (All three were Commanders for the mission, with Conrad and Gordon had already been promoted from their earlier flights. Bean would have been promoted automatically to Captain, and they thought it was weird that just the rookie would get a promotion, so all three became Captains after the flight)


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I don't think we will see a baby


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Bruce24 said:


> From Active Military Applicants | NASA  is says "*If selected, military personnel are detailed to NASA for a selected period of time." *so it seems they remain in their military branch while with NASA.


And don't forget that Will (the gay astronaut) was still active-duty Army, which is why his coming out created such a firestorm.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> I don't think we will see a baby


I don't know. Phoenix has been described as a floating hotel so it wouldn't surprise me if it probably miraculously has all the equipment and research already on board for a Martian pregnancy.


----------



## jr461 (Jul 9, 2004)

Saturn_V said:


> The baby thing really bugs me. Definitely more soap opera than space opera- which is getting tougher to tolerate.
> 
> I hope the show addresses the scientific questions a pregnancy off-earth would raise. What does 1/3 gravity do to fetal development? Does the exposure to cosmic radiation exposure impact the pregnancy? If it happened at Jamestown, they'd send the astro-mom straight home. Would they attempt that with Kelly?
> 
> But I'm also wondering if we're jumping another decade in season 4. We have four eps left in this season, doesn't seem like enough time to complete the story of Mars and back- unless they bum-rush the rest of it in the next four episodes.


I was commenting to someone recently how this show keeps getting better. That was before the melodrama with Danny escalated and the new relationship with Kelly. An end to these ASAP would be appreciated!

If there is a baby it would be the first Martian. Havoc and hilarity ensue back on Earth with standardized forms, starting with the birth certificate!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't know. Phoenix has been described as a floating hotel so it wouldn't surprise me if it probably miraculously has all the equipment and research already on board for a Martian pregnancy.


I just don't see that long of a timejump this season. Maybe next year Kelly's baby will be in the Astronaut program lol


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> I just don't see that long of a timejump this season. Maybe next year Kelly's baby will be in the Astronaut program lol


I didn't necessarily mean this season but I can se it coming along with the drama over whether it gets an American or Russian citizenship or some newly invented Martian citizenship. 

Maybe, in a future season, Margo might finally get some.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Saturn_V said:


> The baby thing really bugs me. Definitely more soap opera than space opera- which is getting tougher to tolerate.


That's kind of the thing about this show. Once they get to their destination, it becomes more office drama than space drama.

-smak-


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Last season, all the Karen/Danny drama happened on Earth in a bar. No one went anywhere.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> I hope the show addresses the scientific questions a pregnancy off-earth would raise. What does 1/3 gravity do to fetal development? Does the exposure to cosmic radiation exposure impact the pregnancy? If it happened at Jamestown, they'd send the astro-mom straight home. Would they attempt that with Kelly?


Well, launch windows only open every 2 years.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Been busy so I haven't been able to be more active.

NASA Mars:

It seems like the rush job to get the habitat modules to Mars is leading to less than ideal or even enjoyable conditions. The CO2 scrubbers Ed brought was a very nice gesture, if not a life saving one if they don't get the ones they have online, and they still have a larger crew than the mission was designed for. It was an interesting image of Ed in his modern commercial suit and the NASA / Soviet suits have not really evolved.
The Soviets are still out for themselves even if NASA did save their collective hides
IF Kelly does get pregnant and carries the pregnancy to term, she will be the mother to the first living soul not born on Terra. Added Drama as the Soviets will want to capitalize and claim that it is the first citizen of the Soviet Union born on Mars.
I am worried that we will find out Will opened his visor on Mars and committed suicide. What I am hoping for is that there will be sufficient supplies to maintain the NASA base and he seeks asylum on Mars. 
I'm wondering if the first Martian Thanksgiving went over like the first one on Earth?
Helios Mars:

Danny continues to violate Eds trust and continue to listen in on his communications with Karen. Did we find out if Ed and his 3rd wife were not a thing anymore? 
Helios Earth:

Karen still shows her business acumen in negotiating the rights to the liquid water. Lets see if the Soviets will live up tho their end.
NASA Earth:

There is a train running down the tracks and its headed directly for Margo. Aledia will not be happy when she finds out that Margo has not been straight with her. 
Will be interesting to see how the story unfolds for the remainder of the season.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Danny needs to die.

I've never bothered to remember Danny's brother's name but I wouldn't mind it if he and his new friends get a quick death either. That plot line seems to be approaching QAnon territory and I don't need a reminder of that nonsense.

This is turning into a soap opera.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> This is turning into a soap opera.


And pretty silly soap opera as well. Who designs a drilling rig so that control happens off-sight? And there's no off-switch on the actual device in case something, y'know, GOES WRONG? Somebody who's too lazy to come up with a logical way for Danny to screw up, I guess...


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Ok, it's finally happened, I'm done with the Stevens boys, I'm all for a good human drama in my space operas but for the first time I can say they've pushed it too far.
No way Danny should have been doing anything but bench warming after his canine outburst.

The rest of the story? perfectly fine and gorgeous to look at! I'm also glad that it looks like Margo's number is finally up, and the Wilson's can either slink away or step up, I'm voting for step up so we can get LGBTQ rights on track sooner.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Ed confirms to everyone that Danny is out of his mind on drugs (something they all must have known already) and they promptly put him in charge of critical functions all by himself while the entire team is doing something extremely dangerous.

Um. ok.


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## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

and now all evidence is gone and Danny gets a statue that his brother can steal allowing Jimmy to finally feel like his part of the family.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Ed confirms to everyone that Danny is out of his mind on drugs (something they all must have known already) and they promptly put him in charge of critical functions all by himself while the entire team is doing something extremely dangerous.
> 
> Um. ok.


I was ready to throw my shoe at the tv when the other guy gave Danny, who everybody knew was messed up, control of the drill console at a critical time while he went to the other side of the room with his back turned to him.

Ed is bad leader when it comes to the Stevens family of astronauts. He keeps giving them undeserved second chances that are dangerous for the other crew members.

It'd be funny if Margot defects to the Soviets to escape the poop storm that's going to come her way and to finally be with her wannabe boyfriend. Their cast is small so I'd assume that Aleida would replace her if that happens.

Who bit the dust in the landslide?


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Ed suspects Danny is using, and doesn’t have an inventory check on the drugs? Yeah, that’s a good commander…


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

kaszeta said:


> Ed suspects Danny is using, and doesn’t have an inventory check on the drugs? Yeah, that’s a good commander…


I think it's long been established beyond a reasonable doubt that Ed is and always has been a crap commander...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I suspect that the guy with the beard who loved the toy dog is going to be dead. Danny will be able to pin the blame on him and get away with it. Everyone will suspect Danny, of course, but won't be able to prove it.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Nice going, Danny


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Piling on...In what world does the US just let the Russians go out and drill for liquid water without them, while at the same time allowing them to live on their ship unmolested.

Kick them out and let them go live with Helios.

-smak-


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

smak said:


> Piling on...In what world does the US just let the Russians go out and drill for liquid water without them, while at the same time allowing them to live on their ship unmolested.
> 
> Kick them out and let them go live with Helios.
> 
> -smak-


They did leave...

Now NASA should demand 80% of the water in exchange for saving whoever is left


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> They did leave...
> 
> Now NASA should demand 80% of the water in exchange for saving whoever is left


They don't even need to do that. They can just take it all for themselves, since they know know exactly where the water is.

Which maybe solves the problem of Helios being the only ones who can get back to Earth. With the water, they won't NEED to get back to Earth. They can just stay and wait for reinforcements (which NASA is probably in the best position to send, since both Helios and Russia probably, er, blew their space-wad on this trip and would have a lot more trouble affording a second without a big pay-off from the first).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

But did NASA send any kind of drilling equipment on Sojourner? And is the one that Helios was using salvageable?


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But did NASA send any kind of drilling equipment on Sojourner? And is the one that Helios was using salvageable?


It wouldn't have been on Sojourner, it would have been on the supply ship they sent ahead of it, with their luck it was the Russians that had one on their now abandoned ship.
Remember we haven't yet heard where the North Korean plot is going, so that may come into play.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> But did NASA send any kind of drilling equipment on Sojourner? And is the one that Helios was using salvageable?


Doesn't matter. NASA can send more. Helios probably can't.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Doesn't matter. NASA can send more. Helios probably can't.


They can send more in two years. That doesn't really help the current situation at all.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Danny is going to need a redemption story arc so he'll probably dig down to the water with just his two hands but trip, fall and drown in the lake as a hero.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> They can send more in two years. That doesn't really help the current situation at all.


The question is who can control the water supply. At this point, that would seem to be NASA and only NASA.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The question is who can control the water supply. At this point, that would seem to be NASA and only NASA.



Maybe nobody, other than Mother Mars


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

With the way the ground split, the water will be on the surface for anyone to use.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> With the way the ground split, the water will be on the surface for anyone to use.


Well, if that's the case, wouldn't it actually be in the atmosphere for nobody to use? I assume the relative humidity on Mars is quite low...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, if that's the case, wouldn't it actually be in the atmosphere for nobody to use? I assume the relative humidity on Mars is quite low...


Meh...it will be explained somehow...


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Anubys said:


> With the way the ground split, the water will be on the surface for anyone to use.


They actually mentioned that if the water escaped up the drill shaft it will boil off.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Watched the latest episode Sunday so going off memory:

Mars - Helios

Yep, Ed still sucks at being a good Leader looking out for his entire crew. His blind spot regarding Danny cost him, his crew, his mission, and potentially his life.
Anyone not surprised that Ed/Helios is doing the bare minimum testing for life in the core samples?
I am curious if the sole witness to Danny turning off the Comm system is now dead and that gold plated horseshoe he has up his anatomy is still working.
It looked like at one point (or 2) that he was contemplating taking an overdose of the "go-pills"
Is there any permanent damage to the Helios base?
Mars - NASA

Moral is in the dumps.
Kelly is still trying to do what is right, and calling out her dad on moving forward before the NASA tests were done.
Glad to see Astronaut Will Tyler still alive, I was thinking he was going to open his visor on the surface after the ramifications of his coming out hit home.
Earth - NASA JSC

Oh, Margo - The show runners are making us dislike you more each week. Being compromised for the better part of 10 years has made a mess of things. From sharing the early nuclear engine designs to now threatening Alida's position. And now your forbidden love is now going back to the hands of the KGB since he is no longer any value to them. And since you are no longer of any value to the Soviets scores will be settled.
Jimmy Stevens, why are you buying into the conspiracy theorists? And what are you going to do with the statue?
Alida - You got Margo's number. Now, what to do? It bugged me that Margo referred to Alida as the engineer when she is a Flight Director.
Speaking of Flight Directors, what ever happened to the Flight Director at the end of Season 2 who was in charge during the Nuclear Alert? The one who was named Flight Director when Margo was gunning for the job?

Earth - Washington DC

Ellen, please don't be so naive, you knew what went down. You also knew that your little charade would come to an end. And when it comes out the US Nuclear Engine design was given to the Soviets, potentially on her watch (not sure of the timeline), along with being outed as a lesbian, things won't end well. It won't end at Larry. Go down swinging if you must, don't go off into the night quietly.
Only 3 episodes left. 

Will we see a Mars Colony form and declare independence from all Earth governments and corporations?
Thereby removing Will from being court-marshals and discharged from the Army
And providing protections to those who may be born on Mars.

Will we see the downfall of Margo? And will she take down the Wilson Administration?


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Oh, Margo - The show runners are making us dislike you more each week.


I'm still Margo's biggest fan. Still my favorite character and actress across all three seasons. (That breakdown into her pillow was heartwrenching to watch) She also does a nice Behind The Science short this episode too. And she's on the big screen in Nope this week as well.

Wrenn Schmidt's performance reminds of Alison Janney's CJ Cregg from The West Wing.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Only 3 episodes left.
> 
> Will we see a Mars Colony form and declare independence from all Earth governments and corporations?
> Thereby removing Will from being court-marshals and discharged from the Army
> ...




How will declaring an independent Mars colony remove Will from being court martialed and discharged? They don't have the resources to stay on Mars indefinitely, so if he wants to stay alive, he's got to return to Earth at some point. And unless the Army regulations change between "now" and when he returns, he's going to be discharged.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> I'm still Margo's biggest fan. Still my favorite character and actress across all three seasons. (That breakdown into her pillow was heartwrenching to watch) She also does a nice Behind The Science short this episode too. And she's on the big screen in Nope this week as well.
> 
> Wrenn Schmidt's performance reminds of Alison Janney's CJ Cregg from The West Wing.


Don't get me wrong, I love Wrenn Schmidt's portrayal. But I do not respect the character as I once did. And maybe I just forgot that she manipulated her way into the MCC. The congress critter a few episodes back nailed it. She is an institution onto herself (not going to use the term from the dialog). She has, single handedly, triggered events that have lead to deaths, betrayals, and compromised the agency's success. She has fallen so low to threaten to take down others to keep her secret from being revealed.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> How will declaring an independent Mars colony remove Will from being court martialed and discharged? They don't have the resources to stay on Mars indefinitely, so if he wants to stay alive, he's got to return to Earth at some point. And unless the Army regulations change between "now" and when he returns, he's going to be discharged.


I am basing it as follows (my own speculation):

The crews are slated to return after the 2 year mission
The Martian habitats were to be abandoned / shuttered upon departure of the crews.
The availability of liquid water allows
Regeneration of the habitat atmosphere
Provides drinking water
Provides irrigation water for growing food
Foodstuffs should have been over-provisioned for the baseline crew leaving "leftovers" for those who stay behind.
We do that now with the ISS

Not sure about power generation, if its solar or nuclear, but should continue to be available for a reduced crew
Someone potentially would have developed a contingency plan if they needed to leave members of the crew behind

It is easier to support one or 3 for a longer period of time than the 6+
Yes, I am still on the "Kelly will give birth on Mars" speculation

If the Mars colony declares independence, and Will decides to stay, it would be akin to 1776, the colonists were no longer subjects of the King (government) but independent.
Beyond the Will situation, if they do have Kelly get pregnate by a member of the Soviet crew, that could lead to an international incident if the Soviets demand the baby be turned over to the Father to return to Earth, as the child could potentially be born without agency, especially if it is in the Helios habitat. That isn't necessarily US soil, nor Soviet soil. It's corporate housing . Plus there is potentialy no way to fashion a suitable re-entry suit for an infant / toddler.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

OK, but you make it seem like staying on Mars in a really risky, life-threatening situation would be preferable to being discharged from the Army. I say returning to Earth and facing that temporary unpleasantness would be much better than remaining on Mars and trying to survive in an environment that would make it nearly impossible.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Margo committed treason because she was in love with a Russian guy who was being handled by the KGP. Let's not make her out to be Saint.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Every time I hear about colonizing Mars I'm reminded of the fact that Mars has no magnetic field which is what blocks the extremely harmful to humans, very high energy cosmic rays from reaching Earth's surface. I can't see how anyone would want to live on Mars with all the shielding that would be necessary to stay alive.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

cheesesteak said:


> Every time I hear about colonizing Mars I'm reminded of the fact that Mars has no magnetic field which is what blocks the extremely harmful to humans, very high energy cosmic rays from reaching Earth's surface. I can't see how anyone would want to live on Mars with all the shielding that would be necessary to stay alive.


Cosmic radiation is quite a ways down the list of things in the Martian environment that will kill you.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> OK, but you make it seem like staying on Mars in a really risky, life-threatening situation would be preferable to being discharged from the Army. I say returning to Earth and facing that temporary unpleasantness would be much better than remaining on Mars and trying to survive in an environment that would make it nearly impossible.


The crews are already spending 2 years in that environment. Lessons learned over that period makes it, even minimally, easier.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> The crews are already spending 2 years in that environment. Lessons learned over that period makes it, even minimally, easier.


But regardless of what they learn by being there, at some point the resources they brought with them will run out. They may figure out a way to grow some food, but that's going to be difficult and probably won't provide enough for all their needs. Basically, the longer they stay there (without resupply from Earth), the more difficult it's going to be.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Okay my seething contempt for the Stevens brothers (Danny and Jimmy) has deflated a bit. Really good scenes from both- especially Danny's imposter syndrome of "stealing Shane's life"

Really liked this episode- good balance of space drama and interpersonal drama. And Dev Ayessa's stock shot up several points after finding his lineage to Apollo 23 and his "We're engineers" rallying cry. Was really having qualms with this season. But this was a good swing back to the good stuff. 

Just hope they don't go all Falcon Crest with the Russians and the Kelly "pregnancy"


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I still despise Danny. His confession didn't include the astronauts and cosmonauts he killed. I knew he'd get to the "and I banged your wife too" part of baring his soul but the rescue conveniently happened a split second before he could confess. I didn't like Jimmy hassling Karen about it like it was all of her fault. Danny played an equal part.

Not looking forward to the Martian baby subplot of the show at all. Not even a little bit. Jimmy Stevens can take a hike now too.

Ellen got on my nerves. She's the President of the United States, the most powerful person on the planet and she's angry at Pam for sacrificing to allow her to achieve that position. How many years have passed?


----------



## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Binge-watched everything available. Glad they wrapped up the rescue in E8

Loved when Danielle told Ed that he works for an a-hole. “Elon” did deliver the cool engineering line though. 

Why, if we see Danny is unstable would they leave him in charge of anything? Ed and that guy who got his toy dog stomped were idiots for not keeping him on a short leash. But then, Ed is consistently impulsive. 

Aleida is still my girl. Loved when she outed the water thing and seems to have figured out Margo. 

I’ve always ignored the soapy parts of this series but… 

Will - “Come out” *after* you return from Mars. 
Margo - I understand love but, dang. 
Larry - Dude, just keep it in your pants for 4 years. 
Ellen - Hang in there until you are re-elected then come out and do you. 
Kelly - Way too smart to not use birth control and/or a spontaneous sexual encounter.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Color me disappointed that Danny didn't sacrifice himself for Ed so that we would not have to listen to him anymore.

I know it's harsh, but as a character he's overstayed his welcome by at least 3/4 of this season so far.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I laughed when Kelly threw herself on Ed right at the spot where he just had his surgery.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Beryl said:


> Kelly - Way too smart to not use birth control and/or a spontaneous sexual encounter.


Love makes you do the stupid. I think Xander from Buffy The Vampire Slayer said that. Whoever said it, it's true. Unfortunately, the writers of this show did the stupid in this case.

Were the Russians the only ones who thought it might be smart to bring a medical doctor along for the very first multi year journey to another planet?


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Is it just me, or does Jimmy Stevens and Larry Wilson have the same terrible wig?

-smak-


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> Kelly is totally getting pregnant on Mars.



yup


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

I’m starting to get tired of the “Danny Steven’s about to confess and fate let’s him off the hook” trope.

The statement about Kelly’s pregnancy endangering the Soviets mission? Dudes! You are at the mercy of NASA or Helios to live and get home. 

Margo looking back on the conference room table where they solved the problem tells me that she misses the actual work. She still has the reckoning barreling down the tracks for her. Oh, she was still a contending B when she hunted down Dev in the gallery. I connected with this plot point. I’ve supported 2 crew rotations from JSC and I would sit in the gallery of the Apollo control room and let that room talk to me. I would stand at the Flight Directors console and take in the ramifications of the thousands of decisions that were made there. I would then walk down to Comm Control and setup the emergency Comm network to be ready if needed.

Karen is the new Mrs. Deke Slayton rallying around the “Astronaut Wives”. While she “hated space”, she is anchored by it.

Danielle Pool is showing why she was the right choice to lead the Mars Mission for NASA. She is in command, she is focused on the rescue and gets it done. Love that they are calling her “Skip”.

Dev focusing on the problem and then turning it upside down showed the differences in the culture. 

So, the Mars team is stuck on the surface since the MSAM is a hunk of junk. Phoenix will just orbit and provide a Comm relay since they don’t have fuel to depart. Can’t drill for water since the one rig is destroyed and the other rig is on Phoenix and it cannot get down to the surface. Helios has one Hab left, NASA has its outpost and It’s ship that cannot fly.

Given past dialog this mission was an out and back, with colonization down the road. So there is no rescue (that we know of) for 4 years (launch rescue in 2 years then return in 2 years). Survival just got much harder. Thanks Danny.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Misread a comment


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Win Joy Jr said:


> So, the Mars team is stuck on the surface since the MSAM is a hunk of junk. Phoenix will just orbit and provide a Comm relay since they don’t have fuel to depart. Can’t drill for water since the one rig is destroyed and the other rig is on Phoenix and it cannot get down to the surface. Helios has one Hab left, NASA has its outpost and It’s ship that cannot fly.


I'm not 100% sure the MSAM is "lost lost" and wonder if they may dig it out in the last episode to get folks up to the Polaris, I also think there's a longshot they fix Sojourner


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> I'm not 100% sure the MSAM is "lost lost" and wonder if they may dig it out in the last episode to get folks up to the Polaris, I also think there's a longshot they fix Sojourner


During the conference room scene NASA was critiquing the mission plan that left the second drill on Phoenix. The Helios response was that they were working to get the fuel refinery up and running. While they were focused on saving Ed and Danny, the dialog tells
me things will be grim.


----------



## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

I wonder if Karen will puke a little bit when the "Danny felt like he had to take Shane's place" nugget comes to light.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I laughed when Kelly threw herself on Ed right at the spot where he just had his surgery.


Yes, if they're going to have Kelly fall on him and hug him like that, they needed to stage that scene differently so she can hug him from his other side. That was painful to watch.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Beryl said:


> Kelly - Way too smart to not use birth control and/or a spontaneous sexual encounter.


Supposedly there's a current, real, mandate for astronauts that they have to remain "masters of their domain" due to the potential mess and damage that could be caused by floating semen. So I wonder if there were similar rules in place and therefore the powers that be simply didn't consider that this would be an issue since they had dictated that it was against the rules. Obviously naive and shortsighted, if so, but might explain why Kelly was apparently not on birth control.


----------



## Random User 7 (Oct 20, 2014)

I think they should just let them all die and end the season. Next year a fresh start, 20 years later and Mars is colonized, and they flash back with lessons learned.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

So what’s the death toll for this mission so far? What, 6 people across the three missions?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

It wouldn't surprise me if they had China have a secret Mars program and rescue everybody causing all kinds of drama.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if they had China have a secret Mars program and rescue everybody causing all kinds of drama.


Don't forget the quick mention of North Korea in one episode


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## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Don't forget the quick mention of North Korea in one episode


Maybe they will salvage that one last parts needed to fix the MSAM or Sojourner from that North Korean probe/ship....or maybe the North Korean probe blew up in orbit of Mars and for the second time North Korean debris is going to cause havoc for Phoenix/Polaris.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Something occurred to me on the drive in. At the end of Season 2 there was the shot on Mars of a boot and an EVA suit. 

I’m not sure, but I don’t think it looked like any of the suits that Helios, NASA or the Soviets are wearing.


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

It's Matt Damon.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Maybe J'onn J'onzz


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Howie said:


> It's Matt Damon.


Gary Sinise unleashes the mojo from the stone face of Mars and majicks them back to Phoenix. And Ed goes out like Tim Robbins a la vacuum popsicle.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Is it possible that North Korea could launch a manned rocket to Mars and nobody at NASA, Helios or the Russians would notice it?


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Entirely possible. It's not as if we have radar coverage beyond low earth orbit. And telescopes aren't great at picking up small moving objects.

But from a plausibility scale- I remember screaming F** *** out loud when I saw that final reveal.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ha! Called it on the North Koreans!


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Yeah!! Nice going to all those who called out that North Korea sent a manned mission to Mars


RIP to President Wilson's presidency


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

5 months of trying to configure the Helios spacesuit to fit a pregnant woman and nobody thought "hey, let's use those other spacesuits that work!"?

plus, that was the worst-looking fake rubber pregnant tummy I've ever seen in my life.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> RIP to President Wilson's presidency


I have a sneaky suspicion that both she and Margo will somehow miraculously survive.

Danny is the worst. His fake outrage over the other guy getting blamed for the disaster had me cussing him out from my couch (again).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Danny is the worst. His fake outrage over the other guy getting blamed for the disaster had me cussing him out from my couch (again).


I'm not sure it was fake...I think it might be genuine, and his usual self-destructive streak at play. Because he'd certainly be better off personally just going along with it...but his erratic behavior is just going to call more attention to him.


----------



## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

The North Koreans sent a man on a one way trip to Mars in a disguised probe. I don't think there would be very many volunteers, but I think they could get a "criminal" to go if they were promised things would go better for their family.

Mars is North Korea's Australia.


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

The show has gone off the rails. But I still like it.

I agree Wilson's presidency will survive. The show is about the world being improved in this universe.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Guy Fleegman said:


> The North Koreans sent a man on a one way trip to Mars in a disguised probe. I don't think there would be very many volunteers, but I think they could get a "criminal" to go if they were promised things would go better for their family.
> 
> Mars is North Korea's Australia.


He wouldn't last long, though, on what could be carried in a probe.

Like, days? If he could even survive the trip to Mars in the first place, which now that I think of it is pretty unlikely...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I was impressed that the North Korean packed some heat on his Martian trip.


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## Regina (Mar 30, 2003)

OT, but Wrenn Schmidt is in the new(ish) movie NOPE and does a great job! I almost screamed, "MARGO!" when I saw her on the screen. Nice to see her getting more work. She is a terrific actress!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He wouldn't last long, though, on what could be carried in a probe.
> 
> Like, days? If he could even survive the trip to Mars in the first place, which now that I think of it is pretty unlikely...


Hell, how did he survive the landing?!


----------



## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

I binged the entire show over the last 2 weeks. Really enjoy it. Now I'm caught up and the wait until next week's episode is going to be tough.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

GoPackGo said:


> I binged the entire show over the last 2 weeks. Really enjoy it. Now I'm caught up and the wait until next week's episode is going to be tough.


You think that's bad, wait until the wait for the NEXT episode!


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Hell, how did he survive the landing?!


space magic


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He wouldn't last long, though, on what could be carried in a probe.
> 
> Like, days? If he could even survive the trip to Mars in the first place, which now that I think of it is pretty unlikely...


The trip to get to Mars takes 9 months. If they could provide consumables for the trip, one would think they could provide for an extended stay, at least until the rest of the armada arrived. One could speculate that the intent was to arrive first and announce a propaganda victory, that that was probably thwarted by the crash of their Mars lander. I guess we'll see next week.



cheesesteak said:


> I was impressed that the North Korean packed some heat on his Martian trip.


In our timeline, the Soviets carried some form of survival arm in their capsules, at least in the early days. Among other reasons, Russians had a not unreasonable fear that bears might be a problem if there were to be a delay in getting to the landing site.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> The trip to get to Mars takes 9 months. If they could provide consumables for the trip, one would think they could provide for an extended stay, at least until the rest of the armada arrived. One could speculate that the intent was to arrive first and announce a propaganda victory, that that was probably thwarted by the crash of their Mars lander. I guess we'll see next week.


On a probe?


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure it was fake...I think it might be genuine, and his usual self-destructive streak at play. Because he'd certainly be better off personally just going along with it...but his erratic behavior is just going to call more attention to him.


Definitely genuine. It was just in the last episode that he confessed his shame to Ed about Shane getting blamed for stuff that was Danny’s fault, and here it is happening again.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Binged this season over the last couple of weeks. It's still "fun" if you don't look too closely at the plausibility or logic behind ANY of this. I have hated the soap opera aspects of the series and it looked like it might be clamped down for a couple of episodes, but got too ramped up after that. So much "unnecessary" soap opera plots. And I also got the feeling after awhile, that since they "made up" the timeline, interspersed with factual events, that pretty much ANYTHING could go. I find it implausible for example that Margo could be compromised for THAT long without anyone noticing. The Danny and Jimmy stuff was ridiculous.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

The only "soap opera plot" that bothers me at all is the baby. If your show is not specifically about babies or, slightly more broadly, if it is not specifically a show about raising a family, then adding a baby plotline to the show is NOT A GOOD IDEA.

If I were ever in charge of a writers' room this would be on a giant sign on every wall in the room.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Of course, adding a baby to a Mars expedition is NOT A GOOD IDEA.

Which, I suspect, is the whole point...


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

ej42137 said:


> The trip to get to Mars takes 9 months. If they could provide consumables for the trip, one would think they could provide for an extended stay, at least until the rest of the armada arrived. One could speculate that the intent was to arrive first and announce a propaganda victory, that that was probably thwarted by the crash of their Mars lander. I guess we'll see next week.
> 
> 
> 
> In our timeline, the Soviets carried some form of survival arm in their capsules, at least in the early days. Among other reasons, Russians had a not unreasonable fear that bears might be a problem if there were to be a delay in getting to the landing site.


IIRC, there is still a firearm in the survival gear in the Soyuz spacecraft performing crew rotations to ISS.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Dawghows said:


> The only "soap opera plot" that bothers me at all is the baby. If your show is not specifically about babies or, slightly more broadly, if it is not specifically a show about raising a family, then adding a baby plotline to the show is NOT A GOOD IDEA.
> 
> If I were ever in charge of a writers' room this would be on a giant sign on every wall in the room.


They tried to tackle the "What happens if someone is pregnant and has a baby in space" idea. I don't think they did it well with the back story which it seems that every American falls for a Russian counterpart?). I think it's a worthy topic to explore, though, especially as it's been considered.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Lots to unpack in the penultimate episode:

*Universal: *

Six Month Time Jump. 
*Earth: Washington DC*

 Honestly did not see the reveal of Ellen's sexuality playing out as a response to political blackmail. And while I think that her presidancy will survive, it may still be brought down if/when Margo's treason comes to light. That will give Congress the cover to bring NASA to heel and exert oversight. 
Loved Ellens commentary that Congress will be the death of space exploration.

I wonder of Larry will remain closeted?
Loved the parallel to the Nixon administration when erasing the tape. REALLY surprised that Ellen allowed it to remain in use.
*Earth: JSC*

Aleida had not let it go, and cracked it. Bill was in the right calling in an FBI contact to gently push her into providing her information. Her reaction destroying her analysis is understandable since it went from being a theory to being real. She still has a decision in front of her.
No Jimmy Stevens? Where did the statue go? What are the conspiracy theory gang up to?
*Earth: Helios*

Dev is now a mash-up of Elon Musk and Steve Jobs. Dev is looking to the horizon and moving forward, regardless of the current situation. His beat on the settles at Jamestown VA was spot on. It was a commentary of the US is not able/willing to accept that spaceflight is dangerous. And, he is not wrong.
Oh, Karen, are you going to go along with the Board's removal of Dev? Surprise Ed! I'm your boss! I think there is still a twist there. Selling Phoenix to NASA was brilliant, but then makes it under US domain. So IF Kelly delivers on Phoenix the baby is a US Citizen.
*Mars Orbit: Phoenix*

Ok, I'm parking this rant here. IF I followed the dialog correctly Helios did not plan on rendezvousing with Sorjournor or Mars 96 spacecraft so there were no rendezvous systems integrated on the vehicle. The Soviet (Russian) KURS systems require 2 parts to work, one on each vehicle. Just adding one on Popeye wouldn't work. Unless I missed something in the dialog.
*Mars: Happy Valley*

So the 3 teams have integrated in the remaining Helios Hab? For viability I would think the crews, while integrated, should be split between Happy Valley and Sojourner. 
Ok, the poster who predicted the MSAM wasn't a box of junk, congrats. Now I think its going to come down to the MSAM isn't able to get EVERYONE off the surface due to fuel limitations.
Danny still needs to be airlocked. Yep, they pinned his blunder on the dead guy. Its still all on you Danny. That said, why am I divining a redemption act by him saving Ed or Kelly? Maybe the sci-fi trope of "not enough fuel Ill stay behind, which is the not enough room in the lifeboat ill stay on the ship trope. Maybe he will die a hero like his parents.
The Soviets went from ominous about Kelly's pregnancy to supporting it fully seems like a plot disconnect.
Who is in command? Ed? Danielle? It's Helios's base. 
*Mars: North Korean Probe Landing Site*

Hello There!
How they are ending this I have no idea, but I am along for the ride.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> They tried to tackle the "What happens if someone is pregnant and has a baby in space" idea. I don't think they did it well with the back story which it seems that every American falls for a Russian counterpart?). I think it's a worthy topic to explore, though, especially as it's been considered.


It is a very valid discussion point since one of the goals of Mars exploration is colonization. Colonists have babies. No form of birth control is 100% effective. No amount of orders and rules will be 100% in preventing people on the frontier (Mars) from having sex. It is valid to theorize what the effects of the reduced Martian gravity (38% of Earth) would have on a fetus. Since a fetus develops in a sack of liquid that I would theorize that skeletal formation would not be affected by that. But I am no doctor.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Win Joy Jr said:


> *Mars Orbit: Phoenix*
> 
> Ok, I'm parking this rant here. IF I followed the dialog correctly Helios did not plan on rendezvousing with Sorjournor or Mars 96 spacecraft so there were no rendezvous systems integrated on the vehicle. The Soviet (Russian) KURS systems require 2 parts to work, one on each vehicle. Just adding one on Popeye wouldn't work. Unless I missed something in the dialog.


I think the issue is that Sojourner is grounded and doesn't use the Soviet docking process, but might have still been able to dock.


Win Joy Jr said:


> *Mars: Happy Valley*
> 
> Ok, the poster who predicted the MSAM wasn't a box of junk, congrats. Now I think its going to come down to the MSAM isn't able to get EVERYONE off the surface due to fuel limitations.


TYVM.. I was one of those


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Dawghows said:


> The only "soap opera plot" that bothers me at all is the baby. If your show is not specifically about babies or, slightly more broadly, if it is not specifically a show about raising a family, then adding a baby plotline to the show is NOT A GOOD IDEA.
> 
> If I were ever in charge of a writers' room this would be on a giant sign on every wall in the room.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, adding a baby to a Mars expedition is NOT A GOOD IDEA.
> 
> Which, I suspect, is the whole point...


As Rob said, this isn't a standard "Let's add a baby to the plot" storyline. This is a very valid addition of "What happens if someone gets pregnant in space? On another planet? What nationality is the baby if the parents are from two "enemy" nations?



Win Joy Jr said:


> Lots to unpack in the penultimate episode:
> 
> *Earth: Washington DC*
> 
> ...


Except remember in this timeline, Nixon wasn't brought down by Watergate, so the Oval Office recording system wasn't publicized. So if (as stated in this episode) the recording system was installed by JFK, it's possible none of the presidents since then have been aware of it, and essentially Wilson is now the one being bludgeoned with the existence of the tapes just like Nixon was in real life - even down to the discussion of "what if some of the tape was just magically erased?"


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> They tried to tackle the "What happens if someone is pregnant and has a baby in space" idea. I don't think they did it well with the back story which it seems that every American falls for a Russian counterpart?). I think it's a worthy topic to explore, though, especially as it's been considered.


I guess why didn't NASA, RSA, and Helios plan/expect for this situation and do everything they could to prevent it? Humans on a three(?) year trip are going to have desires. While I would hope the agencies provides ways for the astronauts to "relieve" themselves. Every astronaut should have been on a form of Birth Control. And, have a "Plan B" option. (I don't remember if Plan B was available in the 90s)


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except remember in this timeline, Nixon wasn't brought down by Watergate, so the Oval Office recording system wasn't publicized. So if (as stated in this episode) the recording system was installed by JFK, it's possible none of the presidents since then have been aware of it, and essentially Wilson is now the one being bludgeoned with the existence of the tapes just like Nixon was in real life - even down to the discussion of "what if some of the tape was just magically erased?"


This is the double edged sword for a show like this. We are used to the timeline as we have lived it. We also have writers who feel that they have carte blanche with the timeline due the fact that the timeline is not the same as we know. So they throw in things like this, where the audience KNOWS the tapes were what brought down Nixon, but, in the timeline, that never happened. There were also quite a few things that seemed strange to me when they brought it up because I know the real timeline. Like the Apollo 23 explosion (we know that there never WAS an Apollo 23 and that there were explosions on Apollo 1 and 2 Space Shuttle missions in the real timeline).


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> I guess why didn't NASA, RSA, and Helios plan/expect for this situation and do everything they could to prevent it? Humans on a three(?) year trip are going to have desires. While I would hope the agencies provides ways for the astronauts to "relieve" themselves. Every astronaut should have been on a form of Birth Control. And, have a "Plan B" option. (I don't remember if Plan B was available in the 90s)


Remember, different time line (RSA? I assume you mean USSR, RSA = Republic of South Africa). So it's "possible" they might have wanted this to happen (I don't recall if that was disputed or not). It doesn't matter if Plan B was available in "our 1990s" because it's quite possible it was in theirs. Didn't they have an ad for a different erectile dysfunction pill? (It's quite possible I'm confusing this show with another time travel show I watched episodes over the weekend...The Paper Girls).


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> I think the issue is that Sojourner is grounded and doesn't use the Soviet docking process, but might have still been able to dock.


While Sojournor is a "bent bird", it is still habitable. Remove some of the stress off Happy Vally infrastructure.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

TriBruin said:


> I guess why didn't NASA, RSA, and Helios plan/expect for this situation and do everything they could to prevent it? Humans on a three(?) year trip are going to have desires. While I would hope the agencies provides ways for the astronauts to "relieve" themselves. Every astronaut should have been on a form of Birth Control. And, have a "Plan B" option. (I don't remember if Plan B was available in the 90s)


And other than barrier methods, what sort of "male birth control" are you referring to? Or should only female astronauts be on hormonal contraceptives? Maybe all the males should have had vasectomies prior to launch?


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Except remember in this timeline, Nixon wasn't brought down by Watergate, so the Oval Office recording system wasn't publicized. So if (as stated in this episode) the recording system was installed by JFK, it's possible none of the presidents since then have been aware of it, and essentially Wilson is now the one being bludgeoned with the existence of the tapes just like Nixon was in real life - even down to the discussion of "what if some of the tape was just magically erased?"


Sorry, I can't go with the POTUS not being aware the recording system was present. IIRC the Nixon's Executive Secretary was in charge of its operation. Those people come with the office holders, they are not career staff.

And, its been a while, and I was a a pre-teen when it happened, but my memory does not recall that Nixon ever asserted that he was unaware of the systems existence. But now that you mention it, I wonder if the break-in or cover-up actually happened in this timeline?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I wonder if the break-in or cover-up actually happened in this timeline?


It did, but since he lost the election it didn't matter as much.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Sorry, I can't go with the POTUS not being aware the recording system was present. IIRC the Nixon's Executive Secretary was in charge of its operation. Those people come with the office holders, they are not career staff.
> 
> And, its been a while, and I was a a pre-teen when it happened, but my memory does not recall that Nixon ever asserted that he was unaware of the systems existence. But now that you mention it, I wonder if the break-in or cover-up actually happened in this timeline?


Well, it's kind of immaterial whether POTUS knew about the existence of the recording system in either scenario. The key issue is that Nixon was either unaware, or forgot, or didn't realize that when he discussed illegal things in the Oval, it would create a record that could be discoverable through subpoena. Since that never happened with Nixon in this timeline, they're playing out the same scenario with Wilson. Maybe she knew about the recording devices or maybe she didn't, but either way she and Larry discussed sensitive topics in the Oval, including his sexual dalliances and the possibility of obstructing the Congressional investigation.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It did, but since he lost the election it didn't matter as much.


He didn't lose. He won in '72 and continued in office until Reagan won in '76. In the FAM universe, Nixon is widely revered as a great president. That's why his picture is front and center above the fireplace in the Oval, with Lincoln and Washington on the sides.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

DevdogAZ said:


> He didn't lose. He won in '72 and continued in office until Reagan won in '76


Ted Kennedy won in '72. Nixon in the FAM timeline was a single-term president.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Saturn_V said:


> Ted Kennedy won in '72. Nixon in the FAM timeline was a single-term president.


Hmmm. I guess I must have forgotten that. Then why is Nixon's picture prominently displayed in the Oval during Wilson's presidency? Maybe because he was the POTUS who created the female astronaut program that is the reason she is where she is today.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

It may just be that RMN didn't take the bashing in the FAM timeline sans Watergate. (which still happened- just was swept under the rug by Ted Kennedy) He did end the war in Vietnam. And he probably still went to China.

But I had funny feelings about the Nixon portrait up front and center in the Oval too. I thought that Reagan would be up there for sure.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Hmmm. I guess I must have forgotten that. Then why is Nixon's picture prominently displayed in the Oval during Wilson's presidency? Maybe because he was the POTUS who created the female astronaut program that is the reason she is where she is today.


And she's a Republican.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And she's a Republican.


But so was Reagan, who served for two terms instead of one. So if she wants to prominently display the picture of a recent, successful Republican, why not Reagan?


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> But so was Reagan, who served for two terms instead of one. So if she wants to prominently display the picture of a recent, successful Republican, why not Reagan?


Because the show runners were playing with the audience?


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Sorry, I can't go with the POTUS not being aware the recording system was present. IIRC the Nixon's Executive Secretary was in charge of its operation. Those people come with the office holders, they are not career staff.


Also, President Wilson showed off a DAT cassette, which would have meant that the system had been updated fairly recently, which would have called extra attention to its existence. (Although that update actually might have been during the Hart administration.)


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm still trying to figure out how the Russian doctor and commander seemed to know Kelly was pregnant before she did.

I also assume that everyone would be on some sort of birth control by default on a Mars mission. As this is a fictional show set in another universe there's no reason why they couldn't have also developed a male contraceptive pill so the onus isn't strictly on the female. I also assume that mission planners wouldn't want to discover how a fetus/baby reacts to being on Mars by an unplanned, accident pregnancy.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

trainman said:


> Also, President Wilson showed off a DAT cassette, which would have meant that the system had been updated fairly recently, which would have called extra attention to its existence. (Although that update actually might have been during the Hart administration.)


Updating the medium on which the recordings reside doesn't require an overhaul of the whole system. If the mics are already in place and all feed to a central location where the recording equipment is, that equipment can be swapped out with any kind of recording equipment without disturbing the mics.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> (RSA? I assume you mean USSR, RSA = Republic of South Africa).


RSA = Russian Space Agency, Roskosmos, which is actually abbreviated RKA.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how the Russian doctor and commander seemed to know Kelly was pregnant before she did.


Because they ran blood tests on everyone to see who was compatible to provide a transfusion.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And she's a Republican.


Of all the things in the FAM alternate time line, that's the one I have the hardest time believing


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

cheesesteak said:


> I also assume that everyone would be on some sort of birth control by default on a Mars mission.


Women would be on the oral contraceptive pill- to induce amenorrhea; not to prevent conception.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Is it possible that North Korea could launch a manned rocket to Mars and nobody at NASA, Helios or the Russians would notice it?


It's almost like we are supposed to believe that they thought it was an unmanned probe and, maybe it was only small enough to be maybe a Soyuz spacecraft, at best. 

So maybe it was just one dude, and he has been surviving there on his own? 

Something definetly off, but it's obviously the fuel we need to keep the space race on I guess?


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> Because they ran blood tests on everyone to see who was compatible to provide a transfusion.


Thanks. That didn't sink in with me.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> Of all the things in the FAM alternate time line, that's the one I have the hardest time believing


Ellen was living in Houston and was recruited to run in what was a heavily Republican district. She may have been apolitical as an astronaut but being one helped win the election in my opinion, sans any on-screen dialog.


----------



## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Because they ran blood tests on everyone to see who was compatible to provide a transfusion.


I recall after he collapsed the doc stated what his blood type was and Kelly stated she was a match. I will assume they tested her blood and a pregnancy test was part of the usual panel.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I recall after he collapsed the doc stated what his blood type was and Kelly stated she was a match. I will assume they tested her blood and a pregnancy test was part of the usual panel.


Yes, I just rewatched that scene and my original interpretation was the doc was asking for a crossmatch from everyone to see who was compatible, but it's possible he was only asking for a crossmatch on Kelly's blood since she offered that she was also A positive. Either way, they ran a panel on her blood and that's how they knew.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'm going to assume that he North Korean Marstronaut will want to defect after they give him a sandwich or something like that.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> It's almost like we are supposed to believe that they thought it was an unmanned probe and, maybe it was only small enough to be maybe a Soyuz spacecraft, at best.
> 
> So maybe it was just one dude, and he has been surviving there on his own?
> 
> Something definetly off, but it's obviously the fuel we need to keep the space race on I guess?


They've been really good at planting seeds and then showing them blossom in the next episode.
I wouldn't be surprised if the probe they visited was literally just a probe and there's a small North Korean base camp around the bend.


----------



## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

So when do new episodes come out?


----------



## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

I hope Danielle remembered to dig up the gun.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

spear said:


> I hope Danielle remembered to dig up the gun.


I hope she didn't. Then maybe Danny's self-loathing will result in offing himself and the rest of them won't have to waste their resources on him. Although committing suicide on Mars would be pretty simple without needing a gun or any other traditional Earth-based method.

Man, those Stevens boys are worthless, aren't they! One got a bunch of people killed on Mars, and the other was involved in getting a bunch of people killed on Earth. I wonder what the part Jimmy was supposed to install would have done. Were the terrorists going to broadcast some kind of statement/manifesto before triggering the bomb?

After months of being alone on Mars with no communication from his country, it's kind of crazy that the NK-astronaut wasn't thrilled to see other humans, and instead thought he needed to defend his post.

The whole idea of an 8 month pregnant woman, who is experiencing complications that necessitate an immediate delivery, being strapped to the top of a rocket and then asked to pilot a jetpack in space just to get to a medical facility was completely ludicrous. Why did nobody even discuss the idea that the whole reason they were trying to get her up there was because she was in a very serious medical condition, not one that would allow her to be an action hero.

The scene at Helios with Dev getting the staff all riled up to start a revolution until Karen pointed out they'd have to take pay cuts was kind of laughable. A narcissist like Dev isn't just going to slink away quietly once the people start to embrace a different idea. He's going to keep trying to manipulate people into agreeing with him, no matter what it takes.

On Sergei's newspaper at the end, it said the HQ building at JSC was named for "fallen hero Molly Cobb." Does that mean when she went back in to help more people find their way out, she ended up dying? Or was that newspaper in the 2003 timeline and she had just died of some other cause and that was how they chose to describe her? I'm guessing the latter, since it didn't seem like there was much immediate danger of her going back in to help other people find their way out. We saw no evidence of a fire or collapsing floors that would have killed her.

How did Margo get away since last we saw she was in her office, and her office got destroyed? Did she just happen to get lucky that she was in the bathroom when the bomb went off? And what city was she in during that final shot? It seemed like it was supposed to be obvious, but didn't look to me like Moscow, it looked more like the Middle East.


----------



## redrouteone (Jun 16, 2001)

I’m really surprised Margo is not dead. Funny she went to all the effort to get Sergei out of the Soviet Union just to end up there herself.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

How did Margot get to Russia if that's where she is? The scene with Aleida gave the impression that Margo got blowed up.

I guess it's ironic that Karen spent so much of her life worrying about her ex-husband and daughter being killed was the one who ended up getting killed.

Kelly's rocket ride made no sense. I'm no scientist but I assume that there would be some serious g-forces for a pregnant woman to endure. They didn't even bother to show her being caught.

Unfortunately, it looks like the Stevens a-holes will be back next season.

Was Ellen still president in her last scene?


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

DevdogAZ said:


> How did Margo get away since last we saw she was in her office, and her office got destroyed? Did she just happen to get lucky that she was in the bathroom when the bomb went off? And what city was she in during that final shot? It seemed like it was supposed to be obvious, but didn't look to me like Moscow, it looked more like the Middle East.



What's really going to fry your noodle, is maybe NASA & Aleida don't know Margo was smuggled out of the country and simply assume she was killed in the bombing. 

Extra crispy: did Russia have a hand in the bombing?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Was Ellen still president in her last scene?


I assumed the bombing at JSC would be a "rally around the flag" event which would put President Wilson's "gay crises" in the rear-view mirror as people realized there were far more important things to worry about. But it did seem odd that a sitting POTUS would show up at Pam's door in broad daylight and there weren't 100 reporters standing in the street taking pics and screaming questions at her. (Although they did establish earlier in the season that apparently it's not so difficult for POTUS to slip away secretly without the press knowing where she is.)



Saturn_V said:


> What's really going to fry your noodle, is maybe NASA & Aleida don't know Margo was smuggled out of the country and simply assume she was killed in the bombing.


Oh, that doesn't fry my noodle at all. I fully assumed the US thinks she's dead (there's probably a really nice plaque in her honor at the rebuilt JSC). That's why the scene at the end was supposed to be such a surprise. Nobody in the West knows she's alive and then something in 2003 is going to change that.


Saturn_V said:


> Extra crispy: did Russia have a hand in the bombing?


I seriously doubt it. If the Russians had any involvement, they wouldn't want it to happen while they had some of their own people in the building and while NASA was trying to figure out a way to keep their cosmonauts alive. 

From the way the hippie/terrorists were depicted earlier in the season, they were conspiracy theorists who didn't believe the space program was real (they didn't think Jimmy's parents really died on the moon, Jimmy didn't believe the story when they were worried about whether Danny was alive) but instead think it's a big propaganda machine. The Russians also have a space program and are in competition/cooperation with NASA so it wouldn't really make sense for them to back terrorists with this particular ideology.*

*I realize that in real life, it would be a great way to foment distrust and discord in an enemy nation, even if you know what they're advocating is cuckoo bananas. But in the TV writing world, I think that's too "three-dimensional chess" to try and explain to the audience, so it's easier to just not have the Russians involved.


----------



## thewebgal (Aug 10, 2007)

We saw there were 2 Korean Astronauts in the ship - but the other one did not survive the landing.

And yes, the acceleration issues for a woman in a difficult pregnancy is too much to be believed, even with the reduced gravity of Mars. But I presume when the 4th season arrives we'll get a look forward on how the Mars colony has survived!

They showed Molly going back into the smokey hallway after leading a group od NASA staffers to the stairwell, so the presumption is she was overcome by toxic smoke while rescuing people from the Mission Control area.

The end of Margo's office was completely blown off the building, like the Murro building in Oklahoma City, so no evidence remained of Margo, no bone, no DNA, no piano, nothing ...
Websites say Apple has signed for a 4th Season - so we'll just have to wait a year and see what's next!




vertigo235 said:


> It's almost like we are supposed to believe that they thought it was an unmanned probe and, maybe it was only small enough to be maybe a Soyuz spacecraft, at best.
> 
> So maybe it was just one dude, and he has been surviving there on his own?
> 
> Something definetly off, but it's obviously the fuel we need to keep the space race on I guess?


----------



## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> [...]
> On Sergei's newspaper at the end, it said the HQ building at JSC was named for "fallen hero Molly Cobb." Does that mean when she went back in to help more people find their way out, she ended up dying? Or was that newspaper in the 2003 timeline and she had just died of some other cause and that was how they chose to describe her? [...]


Here's a discussion thread with a snapshot of the newspaper article. It says that Molly's body was found in the rubble.

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/ForAllMankindTV/comments/wmd5g8


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

spear said:


> Here's a discussion thread with a snapshot of the newspaper article. It says that Molly's body was found in the rubble.
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/ForAllMankindTV/comments/wmd5g8


Thanks. Here's the image for those who are interested:










So I guess we need to use the acronym CSC moving forward.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> How did Margo get away since last we saw she was in her office, and her office got destroyed? Did she just happen to get lucky that she was in the bathroom when the bomb went off? And what city was she in during that final shot? It seemed like it was supposed to be obvious, but didn't look to me like Moscow, it looked more like the Middle East.


Well, her Russian handler hinted at getting her out, and she said her goodbyes in the control room before she left. I suspect she just had spectacular luck in the timing of her extraction...


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

redrouteone said:


> I’m really surprised Margo is not dead. Funny she went to all the effort to get Sergei out of the Soviet Union just to end up there herself.


Life in the USSR not in prison is preferable to life in the USA in prison. Marginally.



DevdogAZ said:


> The whole idea of an 8 month pregnant woman, who is experiencing complications that necessitate an immediate delivery, being strapped to the top of a rocket and then asked to pilot a jetpack in space just to get to a medical facility was completely ludicrous. Why did nobody even discuss the idea that the whole reason they were trying to get her up there was because she was in a very serious medical condition, not one that would allow her to be an action hero.


I think you missed the discussion where there was no viable alternative to getting her back to Earth gravity and adequate medical facilities. As presented, this was what needed to be done, so that was what they did.

And I think you also missed her backstory, wherein she was already an action hero, well-trained and competent in the needed skills.



DevdogAZ said:


> The scene at Helios with Dev getting the staff all riled up to start a revolution until Karen pointed out they'd have to take pay cuts was kind of laughable. A narcissist like Dev isn't just going to slink away quietly once the people start to embrace a different idea. He's going to keep trying to manipulate people into agreeing with him, no matter what it takes.


Seeing the mood turned against him, he's going to slink off, regroup, and try something that will work.



DevdogAZ said:


> On Sergei's newspaper at the end, it said the HQ building at JSC was named for "fallen hero Molly Cobb." Does that mean when she went back in to help more people find their way out, she ended up dying? Or was that newspaper in the 2003 timeline and she had just died of some other cause and that was how they chose to describe her? I'm guessing the latter, since it didn't seem like there was much immediate danger of her going back in to help other people find their way out. We saw no evidence of a fire or collapsing floors that would have killed her.


I don't think we watched the same show. There isn't a much more dangerous environment than an just-bombed building. Molly died when she walked back into the darkness, any other interpretation wouldn't make sense thematically.



DevdogAZ said:


> How did Margo get away since last we saw she was in her office, and her office got destroyed? Did she just happen to get lucky that she was in the bathroom when the bomb went off? And what city was she in during that final shot? It seemed like it was supposed to be obvious, but didn't look to me like Moscow, it looked more like the Middle East.


Presumably she took the escape offer in a trade for the release of Sergei's family and she made her escape just before the bombing.

Too much snow for the middle east. It could have been Moscow, but the Soviet Union was a very big country.

***

Completely changing the subject, I wonder how seriously we can take the end-scenes. We were betrayed at the end of last season with a collegial first step on Mars that was very different from the mad scramble that actually took place. Nice irony that the North Korean had already beaten them to the punch.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

cheesesteak said:


> Kelly's rocket ride made no sense. I'm no scientist but I assume that there would be some serious g-forces for a pregnant woman to endure. They didn't even bother to show her being caught.


You might remember that the Apollo astronauts launched from the moon standing up in the capsule. The requirements for launch are much reduced on a planet smaller than Earth.


----------



## spear (Oct 11, 2006)

ej42137 said:


> [...]
> Completely changing the subject, I wonder how seriously we can take the end-scenes. We were betrayed at the end of last season with a collegial first step on Mars that was very different from the mad scramble that actually took place. Nice irony that the North Korean had already beaten them to the punch.


That scene from last season was exactly what took place -- when the North Korean stepped foot on the surface. Compare it with the similar scene from the opening of the last episode.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> I think you missed the discussion where there was no viable alternative to getting her back to Earth gravity and adequate medical facilities. As presented, this was what needed to be done, so that was what they did.
> 
> And I think you also missed her backstory, wherein she was already an action hero, well-trained and competent in the needed skills.


I didn't miss anything. I just think that set of scenes was wildly unrealistic and stupid, even in the confines of this show.



ej42137 said:


> Too much snow for the middle east. It could have been Moscow, but the Soviet Union was a very big country.


I just thought the architecture didn't look like Russia. Maybe the USSR stashed her in one of the republics that has more middle eastern influence, like Georgia or Azerbaijan, or one of the 'stans. Or maybe that city was supposed to be Baikonur and she's working for Roscosmos.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I agree...if it were Russia, they would've shown us the Kremlin/red square.

Because, you know, just like in Paris...you can see the Eiffle tower from every window!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Looks like Margo still isn't going to get any.

Apparently, Ed is immortal.

It seems pretty unrealistic that a hottie like Pam is still available for Ellen to just pop in on after all these years.

Was there any subsequent mention of the missing Gordo and Tracy statue after it was stolen from NASA's front door steps? NASA has no security cams?

How would a miscellaneous goober like the bomber guy know exactly where Jimmy should plant whatever device that was in NASA headquarters?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, Wrenn Schmidt thinks it's Russia (or rather, the Soviet Union)...









For All Mankind’s Wrenn Schmidt Thought ‘This Might Be It’ for Margo


“Margo is making choices every step of the way, making the best choice she can in terrible circumstances.”




www.vulture.com


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, Wrenn Schmidt thinks it's Russia (or rather, the Soviet Union)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In the article, she says she thinks it was not Russia.

"The Soviets did not have anything to do with the bombing, but I think you should also talk to Matt and Ben about that because who knows?"


----------



## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

That finale was as stupid as last season's was cringeworthy, while the writers think they are so clever with irony.

1) Last season ended with the parents saving space exploration, while this season the sons destroyed it.
2) Margo in Russia - Sergei in US
3) Karen is dead, but her family lives.
4) Inpeachment for the president who defeated Clinton, but for being gay.


----------



## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> I just thought the architecture didn't look like Russia. Maybe the USSR stashed her in one of the republics that has more middle eastern influence, like Georgia or Azerbaijan, or one of the 'stans. Or maybe that city was supposed to be Baikonur and she's working for Roscosmos.


The first thing I noticed were the onion shaped spires which you see on Russian orthodox churches, so I thought Russia, but then i noticed the tall building on the right an thought I recognized it as one of the 4 Stalin apartment buildings, which would make it Moscow. Note in 1993 I spend a few weeks in Russia and stayed at one of those apartment buildings.

See: Stalin’s Soaring Moscow Towers Sorely Need Body Work (Published 2018)


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Family said:


> In the article, she says she thinks it was not Russia.
> 
> "The Soviets did not have anything to do with the bombing, but I think you should also talk to Matt and Ben about that because who knows?"


She says it's not Russia that did the bombing. But that Margo's now living in the Soviet Union. In fact, at one point she specifically mentions Moscow.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Bruce24 said:


> The first thing I noticed were the onion shaped spires which you see on Russian orthodox churches, so I thought Russia, but then i noticed the tall building on the right an thought I recognized it as one of the 4 Stalin apartment buildings, which would make it Moscow. Note in 1993 I spend a few weeks in Russia and stayed at one of those apartment buildings.
> 
> See: Stalin’s Soaring Moscow Towers Sorely Need Body Work (Published 2018)


Yeah, definitely Moscow


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

I wonder if they might have the Soviet Union break up in Season 4.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Do we have a clue why the terrorists were mad enough at NASA to do this?


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

thewebgal said:


> And yes, the acceleration issues for a woman in a difficult pregnancy is too much to be believed, even with the reduced gravity of Mars. But I presume when the 4th season arrives we'll get a look forward on how the Mars colony has survived!


Thanks to Mars’ lower gravity (and hence lower orbital velocity), ascent to low Martian orbit is downright leisurely compared to Earth. Ascent acceleration could be lower than 1 Earth g.


----------



## Allanon (Nov 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Do we have a clue why the terrorists were mad enough at NASA to do this?


They blamed NASA for the loss of jobs due to the new fuel (helium-3) found on the Moon.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

nataylor said:


> Thanks to Mars’ lower gravity (and hence lower orbital velocity), ascent to low Martian orbit is downright leisurely compared to Earth. Ascent acceleration could be lower than 1 Earth g.


What Kelly did is essentially the same thing that Mark Watney did in The Martian, except Kelly actually had more equipment. In the latter movie, Watney broke ribs and blacked out from the g-forces during the ascent. Serious question: which version is closer to reality? Or is the difference because Watney was traveling faster (“fastest man in the history of space travel”)?


----------



## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Allanon said:


> They blamed NASA for the loss of jobs due to the new fuel (helium-3) found on the Moon.


I assume also they think the money spent by NASA could have gone to things like the homeless and so called bleeding heart causes rather than big business.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

cmontyburns said:


> What Kelly did is essentially the same thing that Mark Watney did in The Martian, except Kelly actually had more equipment. In the latter movie, Watney broke ribs and blacked out from the g-forces during the ascent. Serious question: which version is closer to reality? Or is the difference because Watney was traveling faster (“fastest man in the history of space travel”)?


As I recall in The Martian, Hermes was making a high-speed flyby of Mars. It wasn’t in orbit. So he had to accelerate to greater than Mars’ escape velocity, not just orbital velocity.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

nataylor said:


> As I recall in The Martian, Hermes was making a high-speed flyby of Mars. It wasn’t in orbit. So he had to accelerate to greater than Mars’ escape velocity, not just orbital velocity.


Plus match speeds?


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

Kelly's rocket ride reminded me of Slim Pickens rodeo riding the A-bomb down in Dr. Strangelove.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

nataylor said:


> As I recall in The Martian, Hermes was making a high-speed flyby of Mars. It wasn’t in orbit. So he had to accelerate to greater than Mars’ escape velocity, not just orbital velocity.


It’s not as difference as you might think, Mars still has a pretty good gravity well. It’s around 4.1 km/s to low Mars orbit from the surface. Ground to a reasonable trans-mars injection orbit doing a flyby is around 6-6.5 km/s. 

Mind you, that MSAM design is Hollywood Engineering. Don’t think you could make a methane-fueld SSTO that small even on Mars.


----------



## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

kaszeta said:


> It’s not as difference as you might think, Mars still has a pretty good gravity well. It’s around 4.1 km/s to low Mars orbit from the surface. Ground to a reasonable trans-mars injection orbit doing a flyby is around 6-6.5 km/s.
> 
> Mind you, that MSAM design is Hollywood Engineering. Don’t think you could make a methane-fueld SSTO that small even on Mars.


Yeah, I checked the book and Hermes flyby was at 5.8km/s. I think the acceleration Kelly experienced was more realistic than Watney’s (though I totally don’t recall the specifics in The Martian).

Here’s a NASA presentation about a Mars Ascent Vehicle architecture: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20170003391/downloads/20170003391.pdf

That MAV doesn’t seem like it’s much bigger than the MSAM, but it requires staging for the methane version (so isn’t reusable). Notably, it does say “ascent acceleration of 0.8-1.5 Earth g’s.”


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

nataylor said:


> Yeah, I checked the book and Hermes flyby was at 5.8km/s. I think the acceleration Kelly experienced was more realistic than Watney’s (though I totally don’t recall the specifics in The Martian).
> 
> Here’s a NASA presentation about a Mars Ascent Vehicle architecture: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20170003391/downloads/20170003391.pdf
> 
> That MAV doesn’t seem like it’s much bigger than the MSAM, but it requires staging for the methane version (so isn’t reusable). Notably, it does say “ascent acceleration of 0.8-1.5 Earth g’s.”


The MAV concept was staged and had about 4x the cabin volume in fuel + oxidizer. There’s nothing even close to that for the FAM MSAM. 

But yeah, you could make a reasonable launcher from Mars at well under 2g


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

kaszeta said:


> The MAV concept was staged and had about 4x the cabin volume in fuel + oxidizer. There’s nothing even close to that for the FAM MSAM.
> 
> But yeah, you could make a reasonable launcher from Mars at well under 2g


Is there enough of an atmosphere on Mars that maximum dynamic pressure would be an issue for the suited astronaut on the roof, aside from G forces?


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## redrouteone (Jun 16, 2001)

Howie said:


> Kelly's rocket ride reminded me of Slim Pickens rodeo riding the A-bomb down in Dr. Strangelove.


Well, boys, I reckon this is it. Noo-ku-lar combat toe to toe with the Martians.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

vman41 said:


> Is there enough of an atmosphere on Mars that maximum dynamic pressure would be an issue for the suited astronaut on the roof, aside from G forces?


That’s a good question, since it doesn’t take a lot of external pressure on you before you can’t breathe. 

I’ll actually have to calculate that, but it could get pretty high. Going the other direction (aerobraking from a transfer orbit) it can hit 2 psi or so. It would be less in this case (your density drops as you speed up)


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

zalusky said:


> I assume also they think the money spent by NASA could have gone to things like the homeless and so called bleeding heart causes rather than big business.


‘there was a callout in an earlier episode that nasa was self funding and they actually helped pay for other stuff in the federal budget


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

zordude said:


> ‘there was a callout in an earlier episode that nasa was self funding and they actually helped pay for other stuff in the federal budget


...which is a mistake people in the real world make as well...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I did love the fact that Ed apparently needed flying lessons. The guy who was either first or second on the list of best pilots in the entire U.S. needed to be taught how to land.

Also, didn't they say he would have about 3% fuel left when he started going down? he had 19% left when his daughter disengaged, I think...

Finally, they needed to shed 1,000 pounds. 7 people don't weigh more than 1,000 pounds? each man alone is at least 220.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Don't forget that after they shed the 1000 lbs they said they could only get 95% of the way.

So their solution? Build a gantry on top of the MSAM that had to weigh at least 1000lbs, so that she could become a "second stage" 😂


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Also I'm sure that jetpack she had to wear and all the fuel in that was not very light either.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

trainman said:


> I wonder if they might have the Soviet Union break up in Season 4.


According to the podcast, (haven't listened to) Roscosmos (Soviet space program) will be the focus of season 4. I'm sure the writers can work in an overthrow of the Communist govt lickety-split.



Anubys said:


> Do we have a clue why the terrorists were mad enough at NASA to do this?


Being anti-space was trendy since Fusion killed off Oil and Coal industries and put thousands out of work. Conspiracists believed of a huge cover-up with Gordo and Tracy's deaths. And a lot of what happened during the crisis was probably covered up by both American and Soviet governments. (the second reactor was never disclosed)

That former Jamestown astronaut in on the conspiracy was a marine, the failed LSAM pilot. He refused to accept the circumstances of his comrade's death too.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't view anything in this article as a spoiler but indubitably somebody probably will.









"Some Real Fireworks Ahead": Joel Kinnaman Is Ready for His Next ‘For All Mankind’ Mission


The star of Apple TV+’s acclaimed space drama sat down to discuss the fallout from Season 3, where the story’s headed next, and the delight of his ‘Suicide Squad’ do-over




www.theringer.com


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

kaszeta said:


> That’s a good question, since it doesn’t take a lot of external pressure on you before you can’t breathe.
> 
> I’ll actually have to calculate that, but it could get pretty high. Going the other direction (aerobraking from a transfer orbit) it can hit 2 psi or so. It would be less in this case (your density drops as you speed up)


Okay, optimal launch profiles from Mars are a bit different from Earth; you ideally want to do two burns, one vertically to get above the atmosphere and in the initial orientation, then coast a bit and then do a final burn to match speed. We assume that's what they are doing since they don't have as much fuel as they need.

Picking a reasonable (1.5g net acceleration above Mars gravity), that still gives you a surprising amount of dynamic pressure. Around 1.5 psi. That doesn't _sound_ like much, but if you think of your overall frontal area, that's like having 900 lbs stacked on you.

So yeah, this plan has a few issues...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Also, didn't they say he would have about 3% fuel left when he started going down? he had 19% left when his daughter disengaged, I think...


The last shot we saw was of the fuel meter dropping from 8% to 7% (seemed like it was dropping pretty fast) and then it was still a few more seconds before Kelly disengaged. So somewhere in the 3-6% range seems about right.


Anubys said:


> Finally, they needed to shed 1,000 pounds. 7 people don't weigh more than 1,000 pounds? each man alone is at least 220.


I also thought that line about "Nine of us, that's 1,000 pounds, give or take" made no sense. Even with relatively small men and an average weight per person of 150 lbs, nine people is 1,350 lbs. And the average weight of the astronauts would likely be more in the 175 lb. range (1,575 lbs.). But that's before factoring in the weight of their space suits, which are likely at least 200 lbs. each. So removing seven people and their space suits would be over 2,500 lbs.

However, I doubt any of those men are 220 lbs. Joel Kinnaman maybe, since he's tall, but he's also pretty lean. The rest don't look very big at all. In fact, the actor who plays Will Tyler is 5'5" and the actor who played the NK astronaut is 5'6".


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

That Russian defector's gut alone is 100 pounds!


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## nataylor (Apr 26, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> I also thought that line about "Nine of us, that's 1,000 pounds, give or take" made no sense. Even with relatively small men and an average weight per person of 150 lbs, nine people is 1,350 lbs. And the average weight of the astronauts would likely be more in the 175 lb. range (1,575 lbs.). But that's before factoring in the weight of their space suits, which are likely at least 200 lbs. each. So removing seven people and their space suits would be over 2,500 lbs.


Maybe they were talking Mars' weight and not mass. 1000lbs on Mars would be 2667lbs on Earth.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Well, I did not see "For all Mankind" going the Oklahoma City bombing route...

Washington DC

Did Ellen get Impeached? Or did the bombing rally support around NASA and help her fend off her own party? 
Did Larry ever get outed or is he still closeted?
What will it do to Ellen's administration that the North Korean's beat the US to Mars and they had no clue they were able to mount that mission.
*JSC*

Molly Cobb died doing what she did on the moon, trying to save people. You are one in a million Molly. We will miss you.
Karen Baldwin being killed in the blast was heartbreaking. Het last sight being up into space (ok, the sky). I wonder what this will do to the Helios Boards' plan of ousting Dev? 
Another Stevens kid with a lucky horseshoe. I don't think he cut in the video hack for the domestic terrorists to make their broadcast.
*Somewhere in the Soviet Union*

Margo getting out before the explosion? I was thought she was waking up in Star City until others said it was Moscow. I am actually surprised they pulled her out since they were not successful and she did not feed updated design info, without that they were doomed to failure. But her life in the Soviet Union will be nothing like her JSC apartment. Is she actively helping the Soviets, and is she presumed dead? I was kind of hoping she died in the blast, but the good-bye speech makes sense that she knew she was getting extracted.
*Mars*

I said it a couple of episodes ago that I was questioning if there was another group on Mars based on the credits scene at the end of season 2.
Ed was exactly right not to let Danny Sevens go out on a suicide mission. He is no hero. Banished for how many months to the North Korean probe/pod/spacecraft. I wonder what it will do to him if he finds out Jimmy ended up helping get Karen killed.
So, was the Phoenix sill owned by Helios when Kelly gave birth? Is the Baldwin Baby a Martian, a US Citizen, a Soviet Citizen? And, how are they getting the infant down to Earth?
I was right, people had to stay behind on Mars. Just didn't think it was that many.

Bring on Season 4.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Win Joy Jr said:


> Well, I did not see "For all Mankind" going the Oklahoma City bombing route...


It makes sense considering that domestic terrorism was a new thing in the 90s. (Waco siege, WTC93', OKC95') I'm just not sure I liked its usage in killing two principals. (although I suspect Molly's demise was "open-ended" and not planned)

I am going to miss Karen. Really wanted to see Helios under her reigns.

But now I suspect they will have 9/11 in this timeline.


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## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

I've visited JSC twice. Both times I got the impression that Mission Control was quite a ways inside the campus. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think all those camera crews get anywhere near MC, they're relegated to the outskirts of the campus.


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

GoPackGo said:


> I've visited JSC twice. Both times I got the impression that Mission Control was quite a ways inside the campus. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think all those camera crews get anywhere near MC, they're relegated to the outskirts of the campus.


Yep. I’ve been there many times and have been inside the (now-legacy) Mission Control, standing at Margo’s (/Gene Kranz’s/etc.) spot. (I’ve also been inside the new M.C.) For dramatic purposes they’ve collapsed a lot of it down to a single tall building here with a public street outside you can park on.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

I‘ve also been to JSC and been in the ISS FCR, White FCR, the Apollo control room (before it was restored and now limited access. I’ve stood at the Flight Director console. Can’t believe I’m posting the photo.

Yes, in the For All Mankind they merged the MCC with an admin building.

That said, I believe that press are allowed on center during events. How the domestic terrorists got credentialed could have been fairly straight forward since they were outside and did not have access to the MCC.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't view anything in this article as a spoiler but indubitably somebody probably will.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't think it's a spoiler that Ed will have plot armor up to at least the end of season 5?

Even with Lee and Danielle beating Ed to Mars, he still became the first person not to crash on Mars. But not wanting to be left out, he got a do-over and joined the club!


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Win Joy Jr said:


> View attachment 74361
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was part of an installation project for Co trol Data in 91 and this is what I remember outside the building


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I’ve stood at the Flight Director console. Can’t believe I’m posting the photo.


I have a very similar photo somewhere.

Back in college, an alumnus was in the astronaut program (he rode the shuttle a couple of times) and he'd come back to campus to help a group of us study physics. He took us to JSC several times and we got to see all kinds of things the general public does not get access to. It was a pretty cool time.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

Season 1 on BluRay slated for Sept release (UK)








For All Mankind: Season One Blu-ray







www.blu-ray.com





Still waiting for a NA annoucement


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Saturn_V said:


> Season 1 on BluRay slated for Sept release (UK)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that is flat out odd that a home media release hasn’t happened and we have season 3 just ended. Be curious on the extras. Especially deleted scenes.


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## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

The way the studios/streaming channels are handling physical media sales now is flat out bizarre. 

"If we sell them BDs they'll never subscribe to the service!"
"But if we keep it streaming-only, we can never sell them BDs/DVDs!"

There are streaming-only shows that ended 3+ years ago that I'm still waiting on BDs.


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

I would buy the Blu-Rays just for deleted scenes. There is a lot that got gut this year according to the official podcast.


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## PJO1966 (Mar 5, 2002)

Win Joy Jr said:


> I would buy the Blu-Rays just for deleted scenes. There is a lot that got gut this year according to the official podcast.


You get the deleted scenes when you buy through a streaming service as well. They're just not available for streaming rentals.


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## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)




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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

That reminds me, I mentioned to a friend that I really liked FAM and he made some crack about how it was all liberal and woke and I had to ask what he was even talking about since it never occurred to me. But then thinking about some of the storylines, I guess I can see what he was talking about.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> ...about how it was all liberal and woke....


Horrors!!


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## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

It's so liberal, the president is a Republican.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> It's so liberal, the president is a Republican.


But a gay woman Republican. Definitely a liberal fantasy world.


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