# The Sopranos - "Johnny Cakes" OAD: 4-30-2006 *spoilers*



## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

* Phil is still looking to get Vito
* Vito was still looking at the cook/fireman
* Vito let's himself get beat up because he can't be honest with himself.
* The Sopranos = Brokeback motorcyclists for a bit
* T. was gonna get a nice piece of Julianna, and then passed.
* T. not letting himself get some makes him hungry for turkey. I'm thinking that Carm better keep turkey around the house.
* A.J. gets to enjoy the panic attacks too.

-

not the best episode, though A.J.'s attempt on Uncle Jun was looking like it might lead up some interesting story lines.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

The preview looked quite compelling...I know people don't like to talk about it, but it looks like we're in for quite a pick up of the pace next week

As for this episode......meh.

I think I've begun to expect more than they could possibly deliver


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Paperboy2003 said:


> As for this episode......meh.


Yeah, it felt like a placeholder. Now, if AJ had been successful offing Junior, that would have been major. I loved Junior's reaction: "That's not my knife!". I guess I'm not a fan of an AJ- and Vito-heavy episode. Last week was a lot more entertaining.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

I thought Tony wasn't going to sell when he saw the old lady. Oh well


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Watching the hoods try to shake down Starbucks was hilarious...


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## daperlman (Jan 25, 2002)

who was the the real estate woman?


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Nurse from ER


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> I thought Tony wasn't going to sell when he saw the old lady. Oh well


My thought exactly.

AJ is such a wuss, I'm surprised Carmela doesn't just smack him.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> I thought Tony wasn't going to sell when he saw the old lady. Oh well


Actually I saw that as him telling himself he needed to grow-up and let go of the old neighborhood. Following up on his advice to AJ.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

Re: sex with the real estate chick, I'm disappointed in Tony. I thought he was on the straight and narrow. 

Anyone else think AJ's panic attack was his reaction to finally realizing what an utterly worthless human being he is apart from being the son of a mob boss?


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> I thought Tony wasn't going to sell when he saw the old lady. Oh well


I think seeing the old lady helped encourage him to sell... He seemed irritated at her complaint about the noisy music which he was just ignoring until that time.

It seems that in some ways his selling is an admission that the neighborhood is changing, but also perhaps a bit of a push to those that are still in the old neighborhood to move along as the neighborhood is passing them by and leaving people like the old woman behind to do nothing but complain.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Watching the hoods try to shake down Starbucks was hilarious...


It was pretty funny, though I have to wonder what exactly what would happen in such a situation. Does Starbucks move out of the neighborhood when their managers can't seem to stay healthy and/or their windows keep getting bricks through them? I'm sure that things are as described by the manager we saw in the show, but just as sure that the protection racket doesn't necessarily give Starbucks a break just because they're corporate and managed down to the bean.

After all, if Starbucks avoids paying their protection fees, sooner or later word spreads and the racket is over.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

TiVo'Brien said:


> Re: sex with the real estate chick, I'm disappointed in Tony. I thought he was on the straight and narrow.


Are you disappointed that he went to her place or that he didn't follow through? I mean, the idea that he didn't follow through, that is quite a bit different from the old Tony.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

bdowell said:


> It was pretty funny, though I have to wonder what exactly what would happen in such a situation. Does Starbucks move out of the neighborhood when their managers can't seem to stay healthy and/or their windows keep getting bricks through them? I'm sure that things are as described by the manager we saw in the show, but just as sure that the protection racket doesn't necessarily give Starbucks a break just because they're corporate and managed down to the bean.
> 
> After all, if Starbucks avoids paying their protection fees, sooner or later word spreads and the racket is over.


I suspect Starbucks has more influence over the police and elected officials than the mob does. And I suspect the Wal-Marting of America has been one factor in the decline in organized crime over the past couple of decades--neighborhoods that used to be tight ethnic enclaves, from the merchants to the cops to the mobsters, now have huge multinational corporations moving in, and expecting police and city officials to, y'know, do their jobs. And if they refuse to do their jobs, the Wal-Marts and Starbucks of the world can make their lives miserable in ways that Mom and Pop down at the corner store can only fantasize about.

The racket really IS over! Or at least headed in that direction.


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Maybe the shakedown of big chains happens at a higher level rather than on a store-by-store basis. Westechester county didn't have much in the way of the Walmarts and Home Depots until about ten years ago. Rumor had it that organized crime had kept them out, and the downfall of Gotti or maybe a decline in organized crime in general is what has allowed them in in the past ten years. Don't know how true that is, but maybe they refused to be shaken down


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I suspect Starbucks has more influence over the police and elected officials than the mob does. And I suspect the Wal-Marting of America has been one factor in the decline in organized crime over the past couple of decades--neighborhoods that used to be tight ethnic enclaves, from the merchants to the cops to the mobsters, now have huge multinational corporations moving in, and expecting police and city officials to, y'know, do their jobs. And if they refuse to do their jobs, the Wal-Marts and Starbucks of the world can make their lives miserable in ways that Mom and Pop down at the corner store can only fantasize about.
> 
> The racket really IS over! Or at least headed in that direction.


Here's to the new boss, same as the old boss.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

I bet Vito joins up with a new crew in some other part of the country and goes by the name "Johnny Cakes".


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

busyba said:


> Here's to the new boss, same as the old boss.


That's not true at all. You're being terribly unfair.

The mafia would take control of a neighborhood, and rule it with an iron fist, squashing all dissent, and destroying anybody and anything that stood in their way.

The multinationals do it to countries.

You really should apologize to the poor mafia.


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## G8rMan (May 26, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Watching the hoods try to shake down Starbucks was hilarious...


"It's over for the little guy."


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Overall I was entertained by the episode I would have been more entertained if we were treated to some ER nudity but no, Tony had to go all soft on us (no pun intended). I have a hard time understanding why anyone gay or straight would be attracted to Vito or Tony. AJ is such a worthless piece of **** but at least he got a haircut.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

bidger said:


> Are you disappointed that he went to her place or that he didn't follow through? I mean, the idea that he didn't follow through, that is quite a bit different from the old Tony.


I'm disappointed he went. :down:


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## InterMurph (May 22, 2003)

Boy, is it painful to watch Vito waddle through bucolic NH. He's got a worse walk than Shane on Survivor does.

Phil's going to hunt him down on his own, which is a no-no, since Vito is a Capo and a made guy.

And when a big chain moves into a neighborhood, do they usually buy a building? It seems to me that they would rent it. And if they decide to buy, do they send an agent to announce their identity (and deep pockets), so that the seller can negotiate a much higher purchase price? And do they offer to pay 7 1/4% up front, without low-balling first?

At any rate, to those who thought Tony would refuse to sell because it's his old neighborhood, wake up to the reality of the mob. Tony has made a living off "protecting" this neighborhood, even the chicken-store guy that he was all teared up about evicting. Now that the neighborhood is changing, and that racket is drying up, it's most profitable for him to sell. So he sells.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

InterMurph said:


> And when a big chain moves into a neighborhood, do they usually buy a building? It seems to me that they would rent it. And if they decide to buy, do they send an agent to announce their identity (and deep pockets), so that the seller can negotiate a much higher purchase price? And do they offer to pay 7 1/4% up front, without low-balling first?


They almost always rent the building in that situation. Places like Burger King, Wendy's MCD's and whatnot will buy the land then build their building, but they are stand alone stores, not in a strip of other retail establishments.

I liked the episode OK, but it still feels like they are filling a little. I think the extra season next year (or is it 2010  ) caused them to be a little less tight in their storytelling than they should have been.

Now, maybe they are going to have several big time action packed epsisodes in a row. It sure looked like AJ thought about opening his own little branch of the Soprano family when they guy was wanting the shakedown of his landlord.


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## daperlman (Jan 25, 2002)

I am actually enjoying the AJ subplot. 
That scene in blockbuster where AJ and his buddy are both on cellphones cursing and ignoring the customer. That killed me. The way they were acting, you would have thought they worked for the TSA. 

Thought it was funny how Tony's shrink tells him to present united front with Carmella to lay down some rules, and then Carm goes behind his back to slip AJ coke... I mean clothes ... money. Then Tony keeps the arrest to himself. So much for the 'united front' approach to parenting


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Maybe they would buy the building if it was currently owned by a mobster, though. Or just choose a different spot.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

If Tony didn't need the money now, the land value is only going to go up, and he is still getting rent and stuff from the guy there.

He must want the money now to enjoy it


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## KRS (Jan 30, 2002)

You'd think that if AJ is wanting money like that, he would have checked behind the baseboards and come across one of Tony and Carm's stashes. Then he could get that Shelby Mustang!


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## mrpantstm (Jan 25, 2005)

The funniest part of the episode for me was when the little old lady let out such a line of venom. Hilarious.

If A.J. plans on following his father (which is where I assume he planned on going despite Tony's best efforts) he's going to get the panic attacks as well. Be interesting to see whether this stops A.J. or not.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

Ummm...wouldn't you want a lawyer or two to review that paperwork before signing it in about forty places.

(no, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on tv)


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Ummm...wouldn't you want a lawyer or two to review that paperwork before signing it in about forty places.
> 
> (no, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on tv)


Do you think that they would dare to cross him?

I am also not buying Vito as a hot-throb, even in his skinny(er) shape... Tony could be more believable because some women go for the power thing.



> I would have been more entertained if we were treated to some ER nudity but no, Tony had to go all soft on us (no pun intended ).


My thoughts, precisely .


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

bidger said:


> Are you disappointed that he went to her place or that he didn't follow through? I mean, the idea that he didn't follow through, that is quite a bit different from the old Tony.


Could it be that he's having problems down there? He was bragging earlier in the episode but that could have been Bravado.

Anyone think that Tony could have a son as small as AJ, I'm sure he's taken dumps bigger than him.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

I think it's silly that AJ hasn't used his position yet....I think most people in his position would have. You know he could have got that $2k bill comped when the guy came up to him and thanked him for coming....you know he could have taken a chunk of that kids deposit money for sending some muscle...etc etc.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

"Event planning? I don't even know what that is!"


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## crowtoo (Dec 7, 2005)

JFriday said:


> Could it be that he's having problems down there? He was bragging earlier in the episode but that could have been Bravado.


I don't think so. Tony was all gung-ho right up until she started unbuttoning his shirt. There was emphasis placed on the act of Carm helping him button his shirt when he was getting dressed so I think it triggered that memory which is what put the damper on his extra-curricular activities.

Then I think on the way home he stewed about it and was in a way mad at Carm for stopping him from getting any thus the blowup at Carm about the turkey.

Chris
[email protected]


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

"It's not my knife" - Uncle Jun had us rolling!


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

pmyers said:


> I think it's silly that AJ hasn't used his position yet....I think most people in his position would have. You know he could have got that $2k bill comped when the guy came up to him and thanked him for coming....you know he could have taken a chunk of that kids deposit money for sending some muscle...etc etc.


I totally didn't understand why AJ had to fork over a couple hundred dollars to that little short guy at the club. You want $200 for thanking me for coming?


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

mrpantstm said:


> The funniest part of the episode for me was when the little old lady let out such a line of venom. Hilarious.
> 
> If A.J. plans on following his father (which is where I assume he planned on going despite Tony's best efforts) he's going to get the panic attacks as well. Be interesting to see whether this stops A.J. or not.


AJ was raised in too soft, too comfortable, too spoiled a home life for him to ever come close to being a hood. Tony, who is a good judge of character, said as much in his confrontation with AJ outside the police station -- "You're a nice kid" -- as if to say, you don't have what it takes to be a badass like me. The poignancy of that father and son scene was fabulous. :up:


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## G8rMan (May 26, 2005)

crowtoo said:


> I don't think so. Tony was all gung-ho right up until she started unbuttoning his shirt. There was emphasis placed on the act of Carm helping him button his shirt when he was getting dressed so I think it triggered that memory which is what put the damper on his extra-curricular activities.
> 
> Then I think on the way home he stewed about it and was in a way mad at Carm for stopping him from getting any thus the blowup at Carm about the turkey.
> 
> ...


I wasn't sure if he put on the brakes because of Carm, or if he didn't want her to see his scar from the gunshot.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

crowtoo said:


> I don't think so. Tony was all gung-ho right up until she started unbuttoning his shirt. There was emphasis placed on the act of Carm helping him button his shirt when he was getting dressed so I think it triggered that memory which is what put the damper on his extra-curricular activities.


That, and I thought it might have to do with revealing his scar/wound, which is another reminder of what Carmela has done for him...


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## jschuur (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVo'Brien said:


> I totally didn't understand why AJ had to fork over a couple hundred dollars to that little short guy at the club. You want $200 for thanking me for coming?


AJ is still underage. Maybe that was hush money?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

The doctor asked him if he had a history of panic attacks. Didn't he pass out in an episode way back when he was on his high school football team?

Becoming his father, the boy is. (I don't know why I slipped into Yoda-speak there.)

Of course, they could throw us all a big curve, and have AJ actually reject his father's way of life by the end of the series. Or they could go the Godfather III route. (Not a true parallel, but you know what I'm saying...)


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

He had told ER chick that he had been shot. He didn't care about the scar. It was pretty blatent that he was thinking of Carmella who had just buttoned that shirt up for him.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I think the 200 to the 'little person' was because he, the bar guy, gave a 'tribute' to his father. AJ probably always see's his dad taking out cash in those instances and realized he had to do the same


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Paperboy2003 said:


> I think the 200 to the 'little person' was because he, the bar guy, gave a 'tribute' to his father. AJ probably always see's his dad taking out cash in those instances and realized he had to do the same


what would have made more sense was if he had "taken care of" the bill and then AJ slips the guy a couple hunny. The way it happened didn't make much sense to me either.


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## fsck_101 (Apr 9, 2002)

Alls I can say is, almost $2K for 3 bottles of liquor??!?!


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## jgerry (Aug 29, 2001)

fsck_101 said:


> Alls I can say is, almost $2K for 3 bottles of liquor??!?!


Fancy clubs have insane pricing for VIP booths and bottle service. It's ridiculous, actually. It's very easy to blow $1000+ in that situation.

I've DJed at a lot of these places over the years; you learn a lot about how clubs work this way. It's a great racket. I don't mind partaking of these services, but only when they're comped to me! The clubs will comp this stuff if they know you and they haven't already sold the space to a paying customer.

Never, EVER pay for VIP!


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## Joeg180 (Jun 1, 2003)

Figaro said:


> He had told ER chick that he had been shot. He didn't care about the scar. It was pretty blatent that he was thinking of Carmella who had just buttoned that shirt up for him.


That was my take on it.

AJ is to stupid to be in the family. He tries to buy a gun that is found out. He gets let into a locked facilty with a knife. What no one will notice if I stab my demented great uncle in the middle of this room? "You don't support anything I do"
Grow up and get a job, oh wait he has that sucky job at Blockbuster


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## Hpirx (Jan 3, 2004)

daperlman said:


> who was the the real estate woman?


Julianna Marguilies (sp?). Same 1st name as her character.

Good to see you again Julie!


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

InterMurph said:


> At any rate, to those who thought Tony would refuse to sell because it's his old neighborhood, wake up to the reality of the mob. Tony has made a living off "protecting" this neighborhood, even the chicken-store guy that he was all teared up about evicting. Now that the neighborhood is changing, and that racket is drying up, it's most profitable for him to sell. So he sells.


See, I thought he only decided to sell to get in good with the realtor. I think him always eyeing the old lady was part of his guilt out selling out just to further his own "needs."

AJ needs to die! What a worthless piece of crap...

Cheryl


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## TiVo Bum (Nov 6, 2004)

Paperboy2003 said:


> Ummm...wouldn't you want a lawyer or two to review that paperwork before signing it in about forty places.
> 
> (no, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on tv)


Maybe you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night? 

Put me in the group that thinks that Tony only sold because he wanted into Julianna's pants and he only stopped because when she started unbuttoning his shirt it was Carm all over again and the guilt was too much.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

What does it mean when the realator said that they would carry the note in his name?


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## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

KRS said:


> You'd think that if AJ is wanting money like that, he would have checked behind the baseboards and come across one of Tony and Carm's stashes. Then he could get that Shelby Mustang!


That would require too much work for him. I mean the guy sleeps till 11 and is still in his jammies at 4 pm. 

He obviously wants everything handed to him on a silver platter.

Cheryl


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

speedcouch said:


> See, I thought he only decided to sell to get in good with the realtor. I think him always eyeing the old lady was part of his guilt out selling out just to further his own "needs."


I saw it as him trying to do the right thing, but not being very resolute. He has a pretty long history of talking about doing the right thing, then screwing whoever over when it profits him.

That's why I was surprised when he backed away from doing the Realtor. That was a watershed moment for him, I think. And it makes me wonder what will happen when push comes to shove over Gay Vito...

(By the way, the "sex in a bucolic meadow" scene made me laugh, with Vito playing the role of a young Brigitte Bardot... )


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

fsck_101 said:


> Alls I can say is, almost $2K for 3 bottles of liquor??!?!


I was totally taken out of the moment when I froze the receipt to read the bill for two bottles of krystal and one bottle of grey goose and saw the time stamp on it was for 2:34pm. 

I am just kidding of course, but it does seem like someone would have picked that up. Maybe they did not intend for the time to show up when they shot the receipt.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Am I the only one that is kinda tired of the Vito storyline after this episode? I'd really like it to "payoff" very soon.


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## chs4 (Sep 25, 2002)

pmyers said:


> What does it mean when the realator said that they would carry the note in his name?


By carrying the note he (Tony) gets the principal as well as the 7-1/4% interest on the loan.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

pmyers said:


> Am I the only one that is kinda tired of the Vito storyline after this episode? I'd really like it to "payoff" very soon.


I think Vito already got the "payoff" in this episode! And people thought he walked funny before the ride!


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## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

fsck_101 said:


> Alls I can say is, almost $2K for 3 bottles of liquor??!?!


$$$$$Cristal$$$$$$$

Sounds about right.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

pmyers said:


> What does it mean when the realator said that they would carry the note in his name?


The normal way you would close a deal like this is that Tony's note would be paid off as part of the transaction, with the buyer getting a new note.

I think what the realtor means is that they would *NOT* do it that way - instead Tony's note would continue to be held in his name and would not be paid off. The buyer might either pay Tony the cash and allow him to do something else with it (with the obligation remaining for Tony to pay off the note of course), or the buyer would contractually take on the obligations of paying the note. Either way, I think Tony could deduct (or maybe write off) the interest paid on the note.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

One thing I found odd about this episode is the "previously on the Sopranos" segment at the beginning. The "previouslys" for this episode included a bunch of stuff about the Artie/Benny/Martina triangle (including the credit card scam and the fight btw Artie and Benny), the Christopher and Little Carmine in Hollywood stuff (including wooing Ben Kingsley for the movie), and Rusty getting whacked.

None of that stuff had anything whatsoever to do with this episode. Usually the previouslys are carefully crafted to only give you what you need to understand the episode you are about to see.

I thought it was very odd, because normally, the previouslys are an extremely reliable indicator of what story lines the episode is going to be about - I've never seen a "previously" scene before that didn't relate to the episode about to be shown.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

pmyers said:


> Am I the only one that is kinda tired of the Vito storyline after this episode? I'd really like it to "payoff" very soon.


No, you're not the only one. It's the single most unbelievable story line in the entire series.


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## bigcb37 (Jun 14, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> I thought it was very odd, because normally, the previouslys are an extremely reliable indicator of what story lines the episode is going to be about - I've never seen a "previously" scene before that didn't relate to the episode about to be shown.


Actually it happened last week.  The previously on segment was all about vito and then he wasnt in the episode at all. Maybe HBO is a week behind and all of the previously clips from this week will deal with next weeks issues...weird


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> No, you're not the only one. It's the single most unbelievable story line in the entire series.


It's based on a true story. If you google to the right website, there are stories about a NJ mobster who was revealed to be gay. Not sure what happened to him, though.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

frombhto323 said:


> It's based on a true story. If you google to the right website, there are stories about a NJ mobster who was revealed to be gay. Not sure what happened to him, though.


You got's a link?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I don't think the general storyline is any more unbelievable than the rest of what happens on the show, but the fact that the fireman/cook is into Vince, er...Vito, that part tests the suspension of my disbelief.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

This whole season has seemed a little off in terms of pacing to me. It feels like the episodes are disconnected from each other more than I'm accustomed to with the sopranos. The only consistent story is his injury and the gay mafia guy. Even that seems off - the guy was in an s&m gay bar and suddenly he's got a phobia? I dunno... hoping that things start to get a little more cohesive.


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## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

Not only that, to me, they have just spent too much time on the Vito angle. They never go that in depth for a side story. It just feels like they are filling a little.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> This whole season has seemed a little off in terms of pacing to me. It feels like the episodes are disconnected from each other more than I'm accustomed to with the sopranos. The only consistent story is his injury and the gay mafia guy. Even that seems off - the guy was in an s&m gay bar and suddenly he's got a phobia? I dunno... hoping that things start to get a little more cohesive.


Not to mention that he blew a guy in a truck at about 5:30 am on a work morning. And now he's confused?

I'm not saying that a gay mafia member is not believable ... I'd be shocked if there *weren't* closeted gay wise guys. And it could have made a great story line .... but the "Vito is gay" story line strains credulity at every turn.


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## tem (Oct 6, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> Not to mention that he blew a guy in a truck at about 5:30 am on a work morning. And now he's confused?


What he freaked out about is that it was *OK* to be gay and had to accept it about himself whereas back in NJ, as a mobster, his sneaking around covertly and hiding it made it easier for him to think "I'm not _really_ gay ...". In NH, he's an "author" who can be openly gay for the first time in his life. His reaction in the parking lot was the mobster.

I thought it was a pretty obvious point, actually.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

MikeMar said:


> You got's a link?


Google "nj mob gay"


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

tem said:


> What he freaked out about is that it was *OK* to be gay and had to accept it about himself whereas back in NJ, as a mobster, his sneaking around covertly and hiding it made it easier for him to think "I'm not _really_ gay ...". In NH, he's an "author" who can be openly gay for the first time in his life. His reaction in the parking lot was the mobster.
> 
> I thought it was a pretty obvious point, actually.


I got all that. And it didn't work for me .... not even a little bit.

I mean, come on, tell me you didn't roll your eyes when Vito was in the New York club in his Village People outfit. I'm supposed to believe this guy's confused about whether he's gay or not, in self denial about the whole thing, but when he feels like a good time, he goes to a sex bar in NYC in a Village People cop outfit? That's confused self-denial? Gimme a break.

Maybe it's just that Joe Gannascoli, the actor that plays Vito, isn't good enough to be able to convince me - regardless, I just roll my eyes just about every scene that Vito is in.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

How about self-preservation instead of self-denial.

Ok, say he's not in denial, he knows he's gay and isn't ashamed. 

Then what?

This isn't a case of coming out, or not coming out. This is coming out and having his whole life, his whole family's life being changed forever. 

What are his choices? High tailing it out of town with his wife and kids? Witness Protection? Death?

It certainly isn't going to his family and friends and telling them he's gay.

-smak-


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> I got all that. And it didn't work for me .... not even a little bit.
> 
> I mean, come on, tell me you didn't roll your eyes when Vito was in the New York club in his Village People outfit. I'm supposed to believe this guy's confused about whether he's gay or not, in self denial about the whole thing, but when he feels like a good time, he goes to a sex bar in NYC in a Village People cop outfit? That's confused self-denial? Gimme a break.


He's not confused about _whether _he is gay...just what to do about it.

It's one thing when he is back home living his lie, and making brief excursions to satisfy some urges, it's another to acknowledge it to a point where he lives his life that way, as that person, and goes on to try and actually have an authentic relationship.

It is much harder for a guy like Vito to do the latter.


----------



## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Lee L said:


> Not only that, to me, they have just spent too much time on the Vito angle. They never go that in depth for a side story. It just feels like they are filling a little.


You think Vito is a side-story they are using for filling?

Hmm.. I am pretty sure it is a key story line that is going to shape the rest of the show. I think it will be the focal point of the entire show shifting down the road.

I don't think it is a minor filler story line at all.


----------



## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> I mean, come on, tell me you didn't roll your eyes when Vito was in the New York club in his Village People outfit. I'm supposed to believe this guy's confused about whether he's gay or not, in self denial about the whole thing, but when he feels like a good time, he goes to a sex bar in NYC in a Village People cop outfit? That's confused self-denial? Gimme a break.


Do you know any gay people who have spent an extreme amount of time being closeted and/or denial?

The story line is not the least bit unplausible. It is an unfortunate dichotomy and torture some gay people go through. It is entirely plausible to me that Vito would go to a gay bar and dress up yet still be closeted the rest of the time.

Fortunately the world is a bit less hostile to gay people in general, but what you see from Vito in the Sopranos is how it used to be for most gay people I suspect. Never being able to reveal themselves, except in very special cases and protective circumstances. The mob is being portrayed as one of the last bastions of overt homophobia.


----------



## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> You got's a link?


There's an episode of City Confidential on A&E that focused on the Decalvacante crime family and one of the people who appeared on the show was Joe Gannascoli (Vito Spatafore). Seing that ep. made me sure Vito would be outed this Season.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

It was really funny to hear the mobster complain that he has to put a child through college when we couldn't shake down the coffee shop  

how long until Vito runs out of money?


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## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

crowtoo said:


> I don't think so. Tony was all gung-ho right up until she started unbuttoning his shirt. There was emphasis placed on the act of Carm helping him button his shirt when he was getting dressed so I think it triggered that memory which is what put the damper on his extra-curricular activities.


And I think Carmella knew exactly what was going on, and she helped button his shirt hoping for just that result.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

marksman said:


> You think Vito is a side-story they are using for filling?
> 
> Hmm.. I am pretty sure it is a key story line that is going to shape the rest of the show. I think it will be the focal point of the entire show shifting down the road.
> 
> I don't think it is a minor filler story line at all.


Especially since Vito is the cause of a serious increase in tension between Tony and Johnny, which could lead to an apocalyptic battle (in terms of this show) between the New Jersey and New York mobs...


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## Stylin (Dec 31, 2004)

I liked the episode...
I found it interesting that Tony was looking for a way to justify his planned seduction of Juliana, when he was in Melfi's office complaining about AJ, and how the situation is "no kind of aphrodiasic", so he can't be blamed for seeking "an extra curricular activity"- what a classic Tony copout - but he knows Carm has been good to him...I'm glad he didn't do Juliana. Carm only asks for 1 thing, and that's his fidelity. She's been amazing and caring to Tony since the shooting. The least he could do is try to be faithful.

Vito walks that way b/c the actor has health problems and had 2 hips replaced. I saw him and his wife at a restaurant (nice guy) and he walks with crutches in real life. I thought the whole fireman scene was soooo Brokeback, that it became cheesy. But I'm happy Vito's finally getting some...

I thought the Starbucks shakedown was a pretty funny idea.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

marksman said:


> You think Vito is a side-story they are using for filling?


I think they're using it to help HBO fulfill the gay sex quota they started falling behind on after "Six Feet Under" ended.


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

frombhto323 said:


> It's based on a true story. If you google to the right website, there are stories about a NJ mobster who was revealed to be gay. Not sure what happened to him, though.


And what about #2 on FBI's current most wanted list? But then, he was THE boss...


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

smak said:


> How about self-preservation instead of self-denial.
> 
> Ok, say he's not in denial, he knows he's gay and isn't ashamed.
> 
> ...


Here's a partial list of things that don't work for me in the "Vito is gay" story line:

1) coming on to Finn - Finn is clearly straight (and the "he's just intimidating him" angle just doesn't add up 100%) and has no interest. Why would Vito come on to him? Just for intimidation? There was too much put into his efforts to read it htat way.
2) closeted wise guy has a Village People cop outfit lying around somewhere, ready to go
3) mob guy goes to crowded gay bar in NYC in Village People cop outfit, knowing if he's seen by someone who knows him, he's either a dead man or on the run for the rest of his life - why wouldn't he find a quiet little gay bar somewhere and dress normally?
4) supposedly conflicted man acts a flaming queen in crowded NYC gay bar
5) good=looking gay man in NYC bar is attracted to Vito, a fat guy who can barely walk
6) Vito comes on to gay chef/fireman like gangbusters - I mean he's shooting the guy the "come f--- me look" for days and days ..... and then supposedly at the moment of truth can't handle it and explodes in violence
7) gay chef/fireman is attracted to Vito, a fat guy who can barely walk
8) Vito calls gay chef/fireman "fa--ot", cold-cocks him, fights him, and tries to beat him with a lead pipe (he could have killed him) .... but gay chef/fireman forgives him the next day almost instantly .... and as a reward treats him to a game of hide the salami in a meadow.
9) Vito blows guy in truck at 5:30 a.m. I might have bought midnight ... or 2:00 am. But who blows a guy in a truck at 5:30 am? Was he on a date with him? That doesn't make sense. Did he get to work early and was horny so he blew the first guy that came around? That doesn't make sense. That time, 5:30, just doesn't make sense.

Need I go on?

If you can accept all that, more power to you - I'm thrilled that there are some out there who are enjoying the story line. But me? I'm not buying any of it.


----------



## Lee L (Oct 1, 2003)

marksman said:


> You think Vito is a side-story they are using for filling?
> 
> Hmm.. I am pretty sure it is a key story line that is going to shape the rest of the show. I think it will be the focal point of the entire show shifting down the road.
> 
> I don't think it is a minor filler story line at all.


I don't think the Vito story in itself is filler, just the amount of time they are devoting to it. it is bloated compared to other side stories where you almost have to guess exactly what is going on and really think about it. Maybe we are supposed to feel the utter boredom of small town life just like Vito will be feeling eventually. It is just that sometimes you can use a hammer instead of a sledgehammer.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Stylin said:


> but he knows Carm has been good to him...I'm glad he didn't do Juliana. Carm only asks for 1 thing, and that's his fidelity. She's been amazing and caring to Tony since the shooting. The least he could do is try to be faithful.


let's not rush to make a statue for Saint Carm now...We also know that Carm is a user...she has long ago realized that the only way to maintain her life style is to be with Tony (so she got back with Tony)...she also saw what life would be like if Tony were dead...

I have no doubt that she loves Tony, but we also know she has no problem now with anything that Tony does or how he makes his living as long as she gets what she wants...


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

bdlucas said:


> Maybe the shakedown of big chains happens at a higher level rather than on a store-by-store basis. Westechester county didn't have much in the way of the Walmarts and Home Depots until about ten years ago. Rumor had it that organized crime had kept them out, and the downfall of Gotti or maybe a decline in organized crime in general is what has allowed them in in the past ten years. Don't know how true that is, but maybe they refused to be shaken down


I'll bet it's more of "the cost to do business" in the NYC metro area. Same thing in NJ. Until about 10 years ago, there were no Walmarts, and even in my neighborhood there were no Starbucks either. I think what has happened is that these corporations have been given enough incentive in tax breaks and the fact that with rents as high as they are, Mom and Pops just can't compete anymore. I think Mob influence has been moving downhill since the 70s as the publicity as to what they were doing and Law Enforcement making an effort to clean themselves and organized crime up since then. Also, there's more organized crime competition these days with the rise of the Russian Mafia and the drug cartels from South America moving into territories that used to be strictly La Cosa Nostra. Las Vegas is the perfect example of this clean up and the other areas of the country are following. I think part of the Sopranos story is how some of their influence, even over the course of the series has been drying up.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Figaro said:


> I have a hard time understanding why anyone gay or straight would be attracted to Vito or Tony. AJ is such a worthless piece of **** but at least he got a haircut.


I was thinking the same thing. At least in Tony's case, some women are attracted to power and money. I'm not sure what the attraction to Vito would be.


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## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

Stylin said:


> I liked the episode...
> I'm glad he didn't do Juliana. Carm only asks for 1 thing, and that's his fidelity. She's been amazing and caring to Tony since the shooting. The least he could do is try to be faithful.
> .


"Carm only asks for 1 thing, and that's his fidelity"
Oh Please 

Lets not remember the fancy cars the big house and all that goes with it. And she does not care what Tony got to do or hurt to provide it. Sorry, no "Saint Carmela statue" from me either. The least she could do is look the other way when the Big Guy scores a side piece, like she's been doing for over 20 years. She knows the game and the score


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I was thinking the same thing. At least in Tony's case, some women are attracted to power and money. I'm not sure what the attraction to Vito would be.


Probably because he's the sensitive creative type.

What with being a writer and all.


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## InterMurph (May 22, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I was thinking the same thing. At least in Tony's case, some women are attracted to power and money. I'm not sure what the attraction to Vito would be.


"Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac". -- Henry Kissinger.


----------



## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

MikeMar said:


> You got's a link?


http://www.americanmafia.com/Feature_Articles_249.html


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> Need I go on?
> 
> If you can accept all that, more power to you - I'm thrilled that there are some out there who are enjoying the story line. But me? I'm not buying any of it.


I wouldn't say all of it is believable, but enough of it is. There are certainly some liberties taken to advance the plotline, but that has always been the case, even with other storylines. I don't find it more unbelievable than a lot of other things that have happened over the 6 seasons.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

hefe said:


> I wouldn't say all of it is believable, but enough of it is. There are certainly some liberties taken to advance the plotline, but that has always been the case, even with other storylines. I don't find it more unbelievable than a lot of other things that have happened over the 6 seasons.


Whether or not it is unbelievable is less important to me than the fact that it is uninteresting and yet one of the few elements in every episode. The writers must find this a lot more interesting than I do. It's no brokeback mountain.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> Whether or not it is unbelievable is less important to me than the fact that it is uninteresting and yet one of the few elements in every episode. The writers must find this a lot more interesting than I do. It's no brokeback mountain.


For me personally, the most interesting plotlines involve the power structure of the families, the internal conflicts, disputes and how they get resolved within the "organization." I am quite interested in how this is going to be resolved. More so than what's going to happen with Carmela's spec house, or Meadow's engagement, or whether Tony is going to get it on with yet another woman who in real life would never fall for him. The Vito story, the AJ story, and if they'd get back to it, Johnny Sac, are the ones I find most intriguing right now. But hey, to each their own...no right and wrong, just opinions.


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## MerlinMacuser (Jan 4, 2004)

Figaro said:


> AJ is such a worthless piece of **** but at least he got a haircut.


...and a prospectus and a massage.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Bananfish said:


> 9) Vito blows guy in truck at 5:30 a.m. I might have bought midnight ... or 2:00 am. But who blows a guy in a truck at 5:30 am? Was he on a date with him? That doesn't make sense. Did he get to work early and was horny so he blew the first guy that came around? That doesn't make sense. That time, 5:30, just doesn't make sense.


That doesn't bug me much. As a guy, I know the lengths I'd go to have sex.  If it meant getting up a little early so we didn't get caught, so be it. Just adds to the excitement.

tk


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

Couldn't really tell as Vito took his position in the field, was he lining up to pitch or catch?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jones07 said:


> "Carm only asks for 1 thing, and that's his fidelity"
> Oh Please
> 
> Lets not remember the fancy cars the big house and all that goes with it. And she does not care what Tony got to do or hurt to provide it. Sorry, no "Saint Carmela statue" from me either. The least she could do is look the other way when the Big Guy scores a side piece, like she's been doing for over 20 years. She knows the game and the score


When Carm took Tony back, didn't she pretty much tell him that if he's going to be unfaithful, it better not affect the family? Something like that. The idea being she knows he's going to cheat, but she didn't want any phone calls at home from his gooma (or however you spell it) like what has happened previously.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Jon J said:


> Couldn't really tell as Vito took his position in the field, was he lining up to pitch or catch?


Maybe he was just the designated hitter


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> When Carm took Tony back, didn't she pretty much tell him that if he's going to be unfaithful, it better not affect the family? Something like that. The idea being she knows he's going to cheat, but she didn't want any phone calls at home from his gooma (or however you spell it) like what has happened previously.


That was not when she took him back, I thought, it was when he was still hanging around the house and they were in dire straits. Their relationship now is mended and it's assumed he won't cheat I believe.


----------



## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

Bananfish said:


> 6) Vito comes on to gay chef/fireman like gangbusters - I mean he's shooting the guy the "come f--- me look" for days and days ..... and then supposedly at the moment of truth can't handle it and explodes in violence


That's the one thing that I had no problem believing. The performance by the actor playing Vito was a little clumsy, but the writing worked for me.



> But who blows a guy in a truck at 5:30 am? Was he on a date with him? That doesn't make sense. Did he get to work early and was horny so he blew the first guy that came around? That doesn't make sense.


You obviously haven't met a lot of gay guys, have you?


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## RangersRBack (Jan 9, 2006)

Bananfish said:


> Here's a partial list of things that don't work for me in the "Vito is gay" story line:
> 
> 1) coming on to Finn - Finn is clearly straight (and the "he's just intimidating him" angle just doesn't add up 100%) and has no interest. Why would Vito come on to him? Just for intimidation? There was too much put into his efforts to read it htat way.
> 2) closeted wise guy has a Village People cop outfit lying around somewhere, ready to go
> ...


1. My take was intimidation. If Finn spoke up (or Meadow, apparently) Vito could have been in the same trouble he's in now a long time ago. Vito scared Finn into not saying anything.

2. Who knows, why not?

3. I think he thought he was 'safe' in that bar and would only run into other gay guys, who would also have something to hide if they saw Vito. Maybe Vito should have checked his business's collection list before he picked a bar.

4. Apparently he thought he could satisry his urges in relative anonymity.

5. Not sure if attracted was the right word there.

6. I think Vito explained that.

7. Gotta agree with you there, but not being gay I have no idea if Vito is good looking or not. But I do know he's fat.

8. I guess he really likes Vito a lot. But then I would have to refer back to #7.

9. With all due respect your reasoning doesn't make sense here, and how or why it happened wasn't nearly as important at the time as what happened. Whether that was Vito's old boyfriend, or it was 'love' at first sight, or whatever, I guess he 
thought since the place was deserted at 5:30 AM he was 'safe'. 2 AM, 5:30 AM, whatever, the point was Finn saw Vito blowing a guy.

Did you notice the scene when AJ and his friend are in the VIP room? The blonde they brought into the room is blowing someone, I guess his friend, right in front of everyone in the room. Nobody questions that!

Oh, and BTW, it was REALLY hot to hear Meadow describe the parking lot scene. Wow. Did I mention Meadow is hot?

Doesn't seem that far-fetched to me, at least not as far-fetched as Julianna being attracted to Tony Soprano, and even if she was, actually doing what she almost did with a guy like Tony.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

RangersRBack said:


> Did you notice the scene when AJ and his friend are in the VIP room? The blonde they brought into the room is blowing someone, I guess his friend, right in front of everyone in the room. Nobody questions that!


Why question it? we certainly appreciated it!


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

RangersRBack said:


> ...Did you notice the scene when AJ and his friend are in the VIP room? The blonde they brought into the room is blowing someone, I guess his friend, right in front of everyone in the room. Nobody questions that!...


wow...I missed that


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## crowtoo (Dec 7, 2005)

Bananfish said:


> Here's a partial list of things that don't work for me in the "Vito is gay" story line:
> 
> 2) closeted wise guy has a Village People cop outfit lying around somewhere, ready to go
> 3) mob guy goes to crowded gay bar in NYC in Village People cop outfit, knowing if he's seen by someone who knows him, he's either a dead man or on the run for the rest of his life - why wouldn't he find a quiet little gay bar somewhere and dress normally?
> ...


Remember when Vito left the wedding earlier and his wife said something like, "he always does this at weddings (doesn't feel well/leaves early)". What I got out of that, and maybe I'm wrong, is that is Vito's time to do his gay thing.

He leaves a "family" wedding early and goes out to a gay bar, knowing everyone is at the wedding and he doesn't have to worry about someone seeing him there. It's his window of opportunity to let his other side come out without much risk.

Chris
[email protected]


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

crowtoo said:


> Remember when Vito left the wedding earlier and his wife said something like, "he always does this at weddings (doesn't feel well/leaves early)". What I got out of that, and maybe I'm wrong, is that is Vito's time to do his gay thing.
> 
> He leaves a "family" wedding early and goes out to a gay bar, knowing everyone is at the wedding and he doesn't have to worry about someone seeing him there. It's his window of opportunity to let his other side come out without much risk.
> 
> ...


see....I took that as him not being able to deal with his own lie of a marriage.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pmyers said:


> see....I took that as him not being able to deal with his own lie of a marriage.


same here...

I think it was surprising to find out that not only did his wife know (not just suspect), but that she wants him back!

funny stuff about the church curing him


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I think it was surprising to find out that not only did his wife know (not just suspect), but that she wants him back!


Do you mean you believe his wife knew all along? That was not my impression.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

they way he and his wife talked about it made it seem like this was not the first time they've had this conversation...she didn't ask him "how can you do this to me?"...she re-iterated her position that he needs help...


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

pendragn said:


> That doesn't bug me much. As a guy, I know the lengths I'd go to have sex.  If it meant getting up a little early so we didn't get caught, so be it. Just adds to the excitement.
> 
> tk


Well, I don't really disagree with you. Personally, I'm much hornier late at night than early in the morning, but I agree that if my potential partner was enticing, I'd have no qualms about setting the alarm for a 5:30 am tryst. So I don't doubt that a man would do that.

But if one does that - sets the alarm and meets someone for a pre-work hummer at 5:30 in the morning, that's not exactly consistent with being "sexually confused" or "conflicted," is it? That's someone who knows exactly what they want and is willing to go to great lengths to make it happen.

How is that consistent with someone who once they are away from the mafia and are in what appears to be the gay capital of bucolic New Hampshire (is there anyone in that town who isn't gay!?!?  and is this close to closing the deal with an attractive man, attacks the guy and grabs for a lead pipe to beat the living tar out of him?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Anubys said:


> they way he and his wife talked about it made it seem like this was not the first time they've had this conversation...she didn't ask him "how can you do this to me?"...she re-iterated her position that he needs help...


Layers, man. Layers. I completely missed that.

I thought she was in the dark until he was outed.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

courtesy of maxim


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

and one more


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

FWIW, John Ventimiglia who plays Artie Bucco was picked up for DWI and cocaine possession on Monday.

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/67857.htm


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## tubsone (Apr 15, 2006)

G8rMan said:


> I wasn't sure if he put on the brakes because of Carm, or if he didn't want her to see his scar from the gunshot.


REALLY? I thought it was pretty apparent that they were emphasizing the whole button thing with Carm!


----------



## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Jon J said:


> FWIW, John Ventimiglia who plays Artie Bucco was picked up for DWI and cocaine possession on Monday.
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/67857.htm


And Perry Annunziato, aka "Penne Arrabiata," also got arrested apparently:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/TV/05/02/sopranos.arrest.ap/index.html

Life imitates art!


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

Good thing the season's in the can or all the actors may be in the can.


----------



## tubsone (Apr 15, 2006)

Bananfish said:


> Here's a partial list of things that don't work for me in the "Vito is gay" story line:
> 
> 1) coming on to Finn - Finn is clearly straight (and the "he's just intimidating him" angle just doesn't add up 100%) and has no interest. Why would Vito come on to him? Just for intimidation? There was too much put into his efforts to read it htat way.
> 2) closeted wise guy has a Village People cop outfit lying around somewhere, ready to go
> ...


If you don't like it DON'T WATCH! I'am tired of people complaining about this and that! The receipt had a 2o'clock time stamp! I BET they didnt care about some guy freezing the screen so he could go over every little thing and come on a message board and talk about it.Vito this and that...How could anybody hook-up with Tony!

BOTTOM LINE: It's a T.V. show not real life IF YOU DON'T LIKE DONT WATCH IT!

Man IF YOUR Complaining ABOUT A T.V. show you need to get a life!


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

tubsone said:


> If you don't like it DON'T WATCH! I'am tired of people complaining about this and that! The receipt had a 2o'clock time stamp! I BET they didnt care about some guy freezing the screen so he could go over every little thing and come on a message board and talk about it.Vito this and that...How could anybody hook-up with Tony!
> 
> BOTTOM LINE: It's a T.V. show not real life IF YOU DON'T LIKE DONT WATCH IT!
> 
> Man IF YOUR Complaining ABOUT A T.V. show you need to get a life!


And if you don't like the threads here, don't read them. All your advice and insults work as well for someone reading a thread and complaining about it as they do for someone watching a show and complaining about it.

tk


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

Anubys said:


> they way he and his wife talked about it made it seem like this was not the first time they've had this conversation...she didn't ask him "how can you do this to me?"...she re-iterated her position that he needs help...


I'm not sure I believe that....it looked more to me that this wasn't the first phone call he had made to her since leaving. I think they just left out the big fight phone calls to move the story along. I don't think she had any clue.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pmyers said:


> I'm not sure I believe that....it looked more to me that this wasn't the first phone call he had made to her since leaving. I think they just left out the big fight phone calls to move the story along. I don't think she had any clue.


I considered that...but you're a married guy; do you really think having a fight with your wife about being gay (in someone like Vito's demographics) is a one or two fight deal?

shoot, my wife still gives me the evil eye about fights we had 10 years ago 

she talked about it like she had learned to live with it for many many years...I'll concede that they probably never talked about it with each other (one of those open secrets, like your wife knowing that you have p0rn or something)


----------



## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

BTW, what the hell is a "Johnny Cake"? I guess some kind of special pancake...


----------



## jones07 (Jan 30, 2001)

Anubys said:


> Ishe talked about it like she had learned to live with it for many many years...I'll concede that they probably never talked about it with each other (one of those open secrets, like your wife knowing that you have p0rn or something)


That was my take on it also


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## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

Pauly Walnuts arrested 28 times in real life???!!! 



Jon J said:


> FWIW, John Ventimiglia who plays Artie Bucco was picked up for DWI and cocaine possession on Monday.
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/67857.htm


----------



## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> Need I go on?
> 
> If you can accept all that, more power to you - I'm thrilled that there are some out there who are enjoying the story line. But me? I'm not buying any of it.


It is pretty clear you have a fairly high level of ignorance on the subject. If you want to believe all of that stuff is unplausible, that is your right. I think you might want to expand your horizons a bit, though, and educate yourself more on it, because clearly your exposure has been restricted.



Bananfish said:


> But if one does that - sets the alarm and meets someone for a pre-work hummer at 5:30 in the morning, that's not exactly consistent with being "sexually confused" or "conflicted," is it? That's someone who knows exactly what they want and is willing to go to great lengths to make it happen.


I don't remember anyone setting an alarm. I don't remember any background to that whole scene at all. Finn didn't set an alarm and he was there. Why does it make sense for Finn to be there? Obviously Vito that it was a safe place to be at 5:30 in the morning.



> How is that consistent with someone who once they are away from the mafia and are in what appears to be the gay capital of bucolic New Hampshire (is there anyone in that town who isn't gay!?!?  and is this close to closing the deal with an attractive man, attacks the guy and grabs for a lead pipe to beat the living tar out of him?


This was CLEARLY explained in the show. Vito spoke as to why he did what he did. Because he is constantly on guard to protect himself and hide the fact that he is gay. The fact that he lives in a violent world doesn't help at all either. If someone called him gay in the city he might beat him to death. He was torn because he is so used to hiding who he is in public. Clearly at that moment he did not feel entirely safe, where might have at a night club.

Most of this stuff does not even have anything to do with Vito being gay, and does not take any kind of great understanding to catch on. His actions are clearly conflicted, but not the least bit out of line.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

Todd said:


> BTW, what the hell is a "Johnny Cake"? I guess some kind of special pancake...


john·ny·cake also jon·ny·cake Pronunciation (jn-kk)
n. New England & Upper Midwest
Cornmeal bread usually shaped into a flat cake and baked or fried on a griddle. Also called regionally ashcake, batter bread, battercake, corn cake, cornpone, hoecake, journey cake, pone, Shawnee cake.

[Perhaps by folk etymology from jonakin.]
Regional Note: When the Native Americans showed the Pilgrims how to cook with maize, they must have taught them to make johnnycake, a dense cornmeal bread whose thick batter is shaped into a flat cake and baked or fried on a griddle. Johnnycake, also spelled jonnycake and also called journey cake and Shawnee cake, is a New England specialty, especially in Rhode Island, where it is celebrated by the Society for the Propagation of Johnny Cakes. The Usquepaugh, Rhode Island, Johnnycake Festival features johnnycakes made of white Indian corn called flint corn. Outside New England the name johnnycake is best known in the Upper Midwest, but the food itself is most popular in the South and South Midland states, where it is known as ashcake, batter bread, battercake, corn cake, cornpone, or hoecake. The color of the cornmeal, the consistency of the batter, the size of the cake, and the cooking method can vary from region to region. For example, an ashcake, according to a Georgia informant, is "made by wrapping cornbread batter in cabbage leaves and burying it gently at the back of the fireplace" (Dudley Clendinen).

More than you ever wanted to know.


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## Joeg180 (Jun 1, 2003)

Can I get a training credit for the Johnny Cake explanation


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Graymalkin said:


> More than you ever wanted to know.


Yes it was.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

marksman said:


> It is pretty clear you have a fairly high level of ignorance on the subject. If you want to believe all of that stuff is unplausible, that is your right. I think you might want to expand your horizons a bit, though, and educate yourself more on it, because clearly your exposure has been restricted.


What exactly is "the subject" on which I'm ignorant? Do you mean being gay? I plead guilty .... I'm not gay. But the things I've made observations about don't require some grand "education" on being gay ... certainly not enough to warrant a personal attack about my background - and you don't know squat about my background to tell me about my horizons, education and exposure.

I am very gay-friendly. I have several gay friends. I had a gay roommate in college. I lived in the heart of the gay community in DC (Dupont Circle) for three years. I've spent a LOT of time in gay and lesbian bars (my wife -- then girfriend-- and I would meet and hang out at several gay bars halfway between our places, where we always had a very good time and were always warmly welcomed.) I have several gay colleagues at my place of work in San Francisco. What else do you suggest I do to "expand my horizons" ... blow a guy in a truck?



marksman said:


> I don't remember anyone setting an alarm. I don't remember any background to that whole scene at all. Finn didn't set an alarm and he was there. Why does it make sense for Finn to be there? Obviously Vito that it was a safe place to be at 5:30 in the morning.


True, there was no scene showing him setting an alarm - I took a bit of artistic license there. (Full disclosure: I made up the time too .... but I think it's a very close guess considering that Finn was there early for work and it was still dark outside).



marksman said:


> This was CLEARLY explained in the show. Vito spoke as to why he did what he did. Because he is constantly on guard to protect himself and hide the fact that he is gay. The fact that he lives in a violent world doesn't help at all either. If someone called him gay in the city he might beat him to death. He was torn because he is so used to hiding who he is in public. Clearly at that moment he did not feel entirely safe, where might have at a night club.


In the episode where Fonzie jumped over the shark tank, it was CLEARLY explained in the show why he was doing it. It doesn't mean that it came off as plausibly written or acted.

I got his speech - I understood what the writers were going for. What can I say ... it didn't work for me .. I didn't find any of it convincing.

There's just too many contradictions of when Vito felt "safe" to me. He felt "safe" giving oral pleasures to a man in a truck in the middle of a mafia construction site just before work started, but didn't feel "safe" when a gay man kissed him in a bucolic New Hampshire town with no mafia within a hundred miles and no other person to be seen? (Yeah, I get the whole "but he's having to accept that he can live an openly gay lifestyle here, so it's a leap for him" thing. It still doesn't work for me.)



marksman said:


> Most of this stuff does not even have anything to do with Vito being gay, and does not take any kind of great understanding to catch on. His actions are clearly conflicted, but not the least bit out of line.


The fact that you agree that most of this stuff doesn't have anything to do with Vito being gay is even more reason why I'm confused as to why you felt compelled to personally attack me for being "ignorant," needing education and having "restricted" exposure (and now for not having being able to understand something that "does not take any kind of great understanding to catch on").

I'm not suffering from a lack of "catching on" - I get all the subtleties the writers put into the script. And I'm thrilled you find it all perfectly plausible - that's great for you. But I don't. C'est la vie.


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## pex (Oct 21, 2002)

A couple of theories: The whole "bear" thing in gay circles seems to be composed largely of hefty guys who apparently find each other attractive. Also, didn't he have some guy on a leash in the gay bar? Isn't the edge there mostly about dominance and submission rather than conventional physical attraction?



Steveknj said:


> I was thinking the same thing. At least in Tony's case, some women are attracted to power and money. I'm not sure what the attraction to Vito would be.


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## pex (Oct 21, 2002)

I don't find the whole gay Vito angle is implausible as some here do, but that meadow scene was somehow jarring. It made me laugh. What next, hand in hand, running in slow-motion through the wildflowers?!



Jon J said:


> Couldn't really tell as Vito took his position in the field...


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## RangersRBack (Jan 9, 2006)

Bananfish said:


> There's just too many contradictions of when Vito felt "safe" to me. He felt "safe" giving oral pleasures to a man in a truck in the middle of a mafia construction site just before work started, but didn't feel "safe" when a gay man kissed him in a bucolic New Hampshire town with no mafia within a hundred miles and no other person to be seen? (Yeah, I get the whole "but he's having to accept that he can live an openly gay lifestyle here, so it's a leap for him" thing. It still doesn't work for me.)


It wasn't 'just before work started', it was while the parking lot was still deserted, or so he thought. You make it sound like there were a bunch of workers walking around and they jumped into the truck for a quickie.

Like someone said earlier, it's just as implausable for Finn to be there at 5:30 AM, but he was, and nobody said 'Finn showing up for work an hour and a half early doesn't make sense to me.' As a person who values sleep very highly that really doesn't make sense to me, but hey, that's what Finn decided to do, and Vito did what he decided to do. Maybe he was doing it every morning, who knows, and Finn just happened to show up early once.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

Construction work often starts *very* early in the morning. Being as Vito was in charge of the Soprano's construction graft, it's very possible he might show up even earlier if he and the security guard had something going previously.


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## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

pex said:


> I don't find the whole gay Vito angle is implausible as some here do, but that meadow scene was somehow jarring. It made me laugh. What next, hand in hand, running in slow-motion through the wildflowers?!


As noted above:

http://www.americanmafia.com/Feature_Articles_249.html


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

TiVo'Brien said:


> Construction work often starts *very* early in the morning. Being as Vito was in charge of the Soprano's construction graft, it's very possible he might show up even earlier if he and the security guard had something going previously.


c'mon now...mobsters don't get up that early  Besides...it's not like he was actually in charge of any construction.

IIRC Finn got there early and planned on sleeping in the car until everybody else showed up.


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## bigrig (Jul 1, 2004)

pmyers said:


> > Originally Posted by RangersRBack
> > ...Did you notice the scene when AJ and his friend are in the VIP room? The blonde they brought into the room is blowing someone, I guess his friend, right in front of everyone in the room. Nobody questions that!...
> 
> 
> wow...I missed that


Damn...I missed that too!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

It was slightly in the background and only for the first few seconds of the scene. 

If you blinked, you'd miss it.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

busyba said:


> If you blinked, you'd miss it.


I was glad I didn't blink.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Sometimes I look at some of Tony's captains and wonder "Who the f*** is that guy?". Like, where'd Benny come from? And the guy who hung himself in the first episode. It's like a kung fu movie. Bad guys come out of the woodwork.

Since he walks like Charlie Chaplin, they should have given Vito a derby and a cane.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Sometimes I look at some of Tony's captains and wonder "Who the f*** is that guy?". Like, where'd Benny come from? And the guy who hung himself in the first episode. It's like a kung fu movie. Bad guys come out of the woodwork.
> 
> Since he walks like Charlie Chaplin, they should have given Vito a derby and a cane.


That's true!! Outside of Chris, Paulie and Syl, it seems like they have the random Captain of the year. I'm not sure, but HBO used to have the chart with all the characters on it on their website. It used to show all the Captains and when they joined the cast. It would be interesting to see if mention the genesis of all these captains.


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## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

Those guys aren't captains.


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## TR7spyder (Feb 28, 2006)

Well, look at this way. Didnt they say that Johnny had hundreds of soldiers on his side? You would think that Tony must have roughly a half, still leaving him with quite a few people in his family. So there must be 50+ people behind the scenes, sort of like the other 30 or so losties on Lost that we never see . And they can appear out of nowhere at any time.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

TR7spyder said:


> Well, look at this way. Didnt they say that Johnny had hundreds of soldiers on his side? You would think that Tony must have roughly a half, still leaving him with quite a few people in his family. So there must be 50+ people behind the scenes, sort of like the other 30 or so losties on Lost that we never see . And they can appear out of nowhere at any time.


It reminds me more of the "medical officers" or "scouts" on Star Trek that beam down to a planet with Kirk, Spock and Bones, and invariably end up getting whacked by an alien.


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

RangersRBack said:


> It wasn't 'just before work started', it was while the parking lot was still deserted, or so he thought. You make it sound like there were a bunch of workers walking around and they jumped into the truck for a quickie.
> 
> Like someone said earlier, it's just as implausable for Finn to be there at 5:30 AM, but he was, and nobody said 'Finn showing up for work an hour and a half early doesn't make sense to me.' As a person who values sleep very highly that really doesn't make sense to me, but hey, that's what Finn decided to do, and Vito did what he decided to do. Maybe he was doing it every morning, who knows, and Finn just happened to show up early once.


Come on, now! Of course it's theoretically possible for Vito to meet someone at that hour for a tryst. But that's just not what people do. Have you ever, even once in your life, scheduled a 5:30 a.m. sex rendezvous? And on the odd chance that you did, did you meet in a truck in a parking lot (or somewhere equally uncomfortable)? Or did you meet them at one of your homes or at a motel or somewhere else with a nice warm comfy bed? It's hard for me to imagine a situation where one's libido would be less active than 5:30 am in a truck in a construction parking lot not too long before one's mafia buddies are supposed to show up for work. When people plan a sex rendezvous, they don't think "lemme see, what's the most unsexy situation I can think of, cuz that's how I want to meet" -- they think "ooooh, where and when would be really sexy and comfy to meet."

If Angelina Jolie herself suggested 5:30 a.m. in a parking lot to me, I'd say "I don't know .... why don't we meet at a motel instead?" And if it wasn't Angelina, but the female equivalent of Vito, I'd have said "nahhhhh, but we could meet at a motel later in the morning or any time in the afternoon or evening."

This was a writer's contrivance, pure and simple ... they wanted Finn to witness Vito pleasuring a guy, and they stretched plausibility razor thin to make it happen.


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## RangersRBack (Jan 9, 2006)

Bananfish said:


> Come on, now! Of course it's theoretically possible for Vito to meet someone at that hour for a tryst. But that's just not what people do. Have you ever, even once in your life, scheduled a 5:30 a.m. sex rendezvous? And on the odd chance that you did, did you meet in a truck in a parking lot (or somewhere equally uncomfortable)? Or did you meet them at one of your homes or at a motel or somewhere else with a nice warm comfy bed? It's hard for me to imagine a situation where one's libido would be less active than 5:30 am in a truck in a construction parking lot not too long before one's mafia buddies are supposed to show up for work. When people plan a sex rendezvous, they don't think "lemme see, what's the most unsexy situation I can think of, cuz that's how I want to meet" -- they think "ooooh, where and when would be really sexy and comfy to meet."
> 
> If Angelina Jolie herself suggested 5:30 a.m. in a parking lot to me, I'd say "I don't know .... why don't we meet at a motel instead?" And if it wasn't Angelina, but the female equivalent of Vito, I'd have said "nahhhhh, but we could meet at a motel later in the morning or any time in the afternoon or evening."
> 
> This was a writer's contrivance, pure and simple ... they wanted Finn to witness Vito pleasuring a guy, and they stretched plausibility razor thin to make it happen.


The reason the analogy with Vito/the security guard and you/Angelina Jolie doesn't work is Vito cannot be seen with another guy, you can be seen with Angelina Jolie. Vito can't be seen walking into or out of a motel with a guy, he needs to be sure nobody will see him (except in a bar with other gay guys). Hence the 'inconvenience' of a very early morning tryst in a deserted parking lot. Totally plausible to me.

And, for the record, if Angelina Jolie suggests a 5:30 AM parking lot hummer meeting to me, I'm nodding my head yes so fast my hair might fall out - so she agrees to it before she changes her mind.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Bananfish said:


> When people plan a sex rendezvous, they don't think "lemme see, what's the most unsexy situation I can think of, cuz that's how I want to meet" -- they think "ooooh, where and when would be really sexy and comfy to meet."


Yeah, like public bathrooms in parks or forest preserves. 

Truth is often stranger than fiction. People actually do all kinds of stuff that you woudn't find appealing.


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

I didn't find that scene implausible at all. Vito acted like a high school kid screwing in the back of his car. It has nothing to do with comfort or perfect time of day or creating a "sexy atmosphere." It has to do with getting something out of your system when you spend most of your life not being able to. He thought he was alone, he has probably done this with this other guy before safely, and unfortunately, Finn showing up was just terrible luck for him.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

RangersRBack said:


> The reason the analogy with Vito/the security guard and you/Angelina Jolie doesn't work is Vito cannot be seen with another guy, you can be seen with Angelina Jolie.


But can Angelina Jolie afford to be seen with him?


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

busyba said:


> But can Angelina Jolie afford to be seen with him?


I think we can all agree that Ms. Jolie, whether or not she can afford to be seen with me, WON'T be any time soon. Sigh.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

pmyers said:


> What does it mean when the realator said that they would carry the note in his name?


If it means what I think it means, it means Tony personally collects $3,454/month for 30 years ($494,000 @ 7.5% for 30 years) instead of receiving a lump sum payment for $494,000 which she said would kill him in taxes.


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## pex (Oct 21, 2002)

I think you are onto something. Since Tony has had this property forever and the area is gentrifying, virtually the whole value of the property would be subject to Capital Gains tax. So that's, say, $150K straight to the IRS. I am not an accountant, but presumedly you can spread out (or eliminate?) the capital gains tax if you hold the note?



TiVo'Brien said:


> If it means what I think it means, it means Tony personally collects $3,454/month for 30 years ($494,000 @ 7.5% for 30 years) instead of receiving a lump sum payment for $494,000 which she said would kill him in taxes.


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## pmyers (Jan 4, 2001)

TiVo'Brien said:


> If it means what I think it means, it means Tony personally collects $3,454/month for 30 years ($494,000 @ 7.5% for 30 years) instead of receiving a lump sum payment for $494,000 which she said would kill him in taxes.


ahh...that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

pex said:


> I think you are onto something. Since Tony has had this property forever and the area is gentrifying, virtually the whole value of the property would be subject to Capital Gains tax. So that's, say, $150K straight to the IRS. I am not an accountant, but presumedly you can spread out (or eliminate?) the capital gains tax if you hold the note?


You only pay capital gains when you realize the profit by selling, so as long as you are carrying the note, I don't think you have realized the gain and don't have to pay the taxes.


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## marksman (Mar 4, 2002)

Bananfish said:


> What exactly is "the subject" on which I'm ignorant? Do you mean being gay? I plead guilty .... I'm not gay.


No you are simply ignorant on the sexual and lifestyle practices of gay people. I am not gay either, neither are probably a lot of people on this thread, it does not mean we don't know some things that go on. There are reasons why guys like George Micheal get busted soliciting sex in public restrooms. There is a whole component to some gay culture revolving around anonymous sexual liasions in public and semi-public places.

You can get all bent of shape and think I am insulting you for calling you ignorant, but ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge. You are clearly ignorant on this, yet you keep insisting it is not accurate. That is the part I have a bigger issue with... Nothing wrong with being ignorant about something. Being able to understand when you might be ignorant on a subject, though, can be a good thing.



> I am very gay-friendly. I have several gay friends. I had a gay roommate in college. I lived in the heart of the gay community in DC (Dupont Circle) for three years.


Okay, so not really sure why you are so ignorant then.. I can't explain it, I am not you. It is not like we are touching on some deeply hidden concepts, stereotypes or ideals. This is pretty common stuff you rally against.



> I've spent a LOT of time in gay and lesbian bars (my wife -- then girfriend-- and I would meet and hang out at several gay bars halfway between our places, where we always had a very good time and were always warmly welcomed.) I have several gay colleagues at my place of work in San Francisco. What else do you suggest I do to "expand my horizons" ... blow a guy in a truck?


If that does it for you....You don't have to know ANY gay people, to have some knowledge to how some segments of gay society interact. Just because you know some gay people does not mean they are going to tell you the hang out in highway reststops looking to give a *******, even though chances are one of you many gay "friends" has probably done it before. It is not something I suspect the average person is just going to share. Yet the knowledge is out there.



> In the episode where Fonzie jumped over the shark tank, it was CLEARLY explained in the show why he was doing it. It doesn't mean that it came off as plausibly written or acted.


So with all your gay friends you can't understand why a gay person might be conflicted or confused about their sexuality and sometimes even resort to irrational behavior? As opposed to the rest-stop stuff, this makes it harder to digest your claims of all these gay friends you are so close to... A significant portion of gay people suffer and struggle with this issues. If you had a significant or close relationship with many of them as you claim, it would be virtually impossible for you not to have experienced this in a meaningful way. Sure there is a 1 in a million chance...



> There's just too many contradictions of when Vito felt "safe" to me. He felt "safe" giving oral pleasures to a man in a truck in the middle of a mafia construction site just before work started, but didn't feel "safe" when a gay man kissed him in a bucolic New Hampshire town with no mafia within a hundred miles and no other person to be seen?


He was in the parking lot of a restaurant bar with lots of people around and potentially people coming and going at any second. As opposed to a construction site that his mob family owns and controls and where nobody in their right mind would be going to at such an odd hour... I don't know that he could have picked a safer spot given his circumstances.



> The fact that you agree that most of this stuff doesn't have anything to do with Vito being gay is even more reason why I'm confused as to why you felt compelled to personally attack me for being "ignorant," needing education and having "restricted" exposure (and now for not having being able to understand something that "does not take any kind of great understanding to catch on").


You can feel insulted all you want. You are ignorant on the subject matter yet you keep insisting it does not ring true or is not realistic. It is unfortunate that you are not able to accept the fact that your knowledge on this is not on a level qualifying you to judge the reality of the situation... I am not going to apoligize for calling you ignorant on the matter because you are... People want to get their back up and get offended when they are called ignorant. Calling someone ignorant on a specific topic is not the same thing as calling them stupid or dumb. I am not implying either of those things.

It is clear to me, however, even with your protestations and suggested relationships aside, that you are ignorant on these matters.



> I'm not suffering from a lack of "catching on" - I get all the subtleties the writers put into the script. And I'm thrilled you find it all perfectly plausible - that's great for you. But I don't. C'est la vie.


Your reasons for not finding it plausible, however, are the same exact reasons that clearly demonstrate to me you are ignornant on the subject matter. Since you have so many gay friends, why not talk with one of them who is more open and comfortable with their sexuality and pose some of these questions and issues you have with this episode to them... I think you would be significantly suprised.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

marksman said:


> You only pay capital gains when you realize the profit by selling, so as long as you are carrying the note, I don't think you have realized the gain and don't have to pay the taxes.


Actually, I believe it's nothing more than a mortgage. Wouldn't part of the payments to him be interest (regular income) and part would be payment of principal which should qualify for capital gains treatment?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

marksman said:


> No you are simply ignorant on the sexual and lifestyle practices of gay people.


Can you guys please take your pis*ing contest the PM route?


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Can you guys please take your pis*ing contest the PM route?


:up:


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## Bananfish (May 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Can you guys please take your pis*ing contest the PM route?


My bladder's already empty, so I've moved on!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

That was a fun little argument. Even if you were to convince me that the writing of vito is plausible, you won't be able to convince me that it is interesting. More AJ, less vito, if anything. I kind of miss the comedic pauly episodes.


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## tubsone (Apr 15, 2006)

pendragn said:


> And if you don't like the threads here, don't read them. All your advice and insults work as well for someone reading a thread and complaining about it as they do for someone watching a show and complaining about it.
> 
> tk


Actually I think they are two different matters! One's watching a show your suppose to be a fan of and then coming on here a whining about this and that! I mean if it brothers you WHY WATCH? Two alot of people feel this way! Read some of the other postings! My insult was minor compared to the other stuff bananfish is taking for his WACK MESSAGE! So "KICK ROCKS" tk nobody was talking to you.


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## Joeg180 (Jun 1, 2003)

TiVo'Brien said:


> If it means what I think it means, it means Tony personally collects $3,454/month for 30 years ($494,000 @ 7.5% for 30 years) instead of receiving a lump sum payment for $494,000 which she said would kill him in taxes.


If this is true, Tony will collect $1243440 for the building?
No wonder he sold the building.

Has anyone caught the Netflix commercial with Paulie Walnuts?


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Joeg180 said:


> If this is true, Tony will collect $1243440 for the building?
> No wonder he sold the building.


Ah, but then there's the time value of money...


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