# CES interview with Jim Denny, TiVo



## silverdragon (Oct 15, 2006)

I thought this group may be interested in an interview we did at CES 2007 with Jim Denny from TiVo. It's about 15 minutes long and covers things such as S2 vs S3 software disconnect, where TiVo is going, etc. 

Since I've not yet posted 5 times I can't give you a direct URL... If someone with more than 5 posts finds this interesting, please feel free to link to the direct download of the file. I believe that since this is relevant to the group, this would not be considered spam, please let me know if I'm mistaken.

You can view this info at TechnologyEvangelist Commercial TLD


----------



## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

silverdragon said:


> I thought this group may be interested in an interview we did at CES 2007 with Jim Denny from TiVo. It's about 15 minutes long and covers things such as S2 vs S3 software disconnect, where TiVo is going, etc.
> 
> Since I've not yet posted 5 times I can't give you a direct URL... If someone with more than 5 posts finds this interesting, please feel free to link to the direct download of the file. I believe that since this is relevant to the group, this would not be considered spam, please let me know if I'm mistaken.
> 
> You can view this info at TechnologyEvangelist Commercial TLD


I'd be interested in seeing it. If I could find it. I googled and couldn't come up with anything.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Looks to be here:

http://www.technologyevangelist.com/2007/01/ces_jim_denny_tivo.html


----------



## silverdragon (Oct 15, 2006)

That's the one. Thank you for the direct link. I don't want to flood the forum with useless posts just to hit 5, but if someone wants to post a direct download, that's cool too. I'll see if I can't get a full transcript going too for those who would prefer read it.


----------



## Leo Valiant (Apr 19, 2000)

Nice.

I don't yet have a Series3, but that's the first I heard/read from a TiVo employee that MRV and TivoToGo will be released on the S3 later this year.


----------



## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Silverdragon, first I want to thank you and welcome you to the TiVo Forum. I wish everyone came in here with an attitude like yours. And with such good info too.  

Second the interview was simply great. We now know for sure that some form of TTG is coming and Jim Denny's words, "weeks not months." That was nice to hear. 

Most of the stuff he talked about was pretty well what we have heard and or speculated but it seems there are a lot more plans for the S3.


----------



## eelton (Jun 10, 2001)

Leo Valiant said:


> Nice.
> 
> I don't yet have a Series3, but that's the first I heard/read from a TiVo employee that MRV and TivoToGo will be released on the S3 later this year.


He wasn't explicit about it, but it sounds like it will be for analog and OTA rather than CableCARD channels--at least initially. Still, it's a start.


----------



## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

Good interview. Interviewer asked some good questions and the answers, though not what everyone wants to hear, now makes sense.


----------



## Bighouse (Sep 3, 2004)

hookbill said:


> Second the interview was simply great. We now know for sure that some form of TTG is coming and Jim Denny's words, "weeks not months."


Sounded to me like he just said "In about two weeks".


----------



## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

Bighouse said:


> Sounded to me like he just said "In about two weeks".


For the record I replayed that part 3 times. I stand by my quote.

If he would have said "in about two weeks" I would have thought gee, nobody at TiVo knows anything.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

hookbill said:


> Second the interview was simply great. We now know for sure that some form of TTG is coming and Jim Denny's words, "weeks not months." That was nice to hear.


 I think you misunderstood - the "weeks from now" release sounded like the 8.1 software with Tivocast and KidsZone and Recently Deleted folder - basically catching up to the S2 features except TTG/MRV. TTG/MRV sounds like is planned sometime later than that and as mentioned the treatment of analog & OTA will be different than digital cable content requiring cablecard.

I echo sentiments others already expressed that it was good to hear something semi-official from Tivo about activity regarding TTG/MRV, though the timeline is still very fuzzy and the CableCard approval barrier is still there (for eSATA as well).


----------



## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

moyekj said:


> I think you misunderstood - the "weeks from now" release sounded like the 8.1 software with Tivocast and KidsZone and Recently Deleted folder - basically catching up to the S2 features except TTG/MRV. TTG/MRV sounds like is planned sometime later than that and as mentioned the treatment of analog & OTA will be different than digital cable content requiring cablecard.


No, I did not misunderstand. See the above.


----------



## silverdragon (Oct 15, 2006)

Thanks for the nice comments all. The interview was conducted with questions based on my S3 and general annoyances I had. I think TiVo did a great job answering and helping us understand why they had to do what they had to do. I commend them for being so open and this was one of our best interviews (information wise) from the show.

Simple stuff like this has made me a TiVo convert. The S3 is the first TiVo I have owned (though not the first DVR) and because of their incredible attitude at the show I'm now excited at what is coming.


----------



## Toeside (Feb 14, 2002)

The interview was very good. It gives me hope that the S3 will get the S2 features. I'm considering getting a S3 (or two) for OTA content only. It'd be cool to have TTG and MRV for those sources (though I know the masses would like it enabled for Cable content, too, and I'd like it as well for future use).


----------



## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

Leo Valiant said:


> Nice.
> 
> I don't yet have a Series3, but that's the first I heard/read from a TiVo employee that MRV and TivoToGo will be released on the S3 later this year.


Yeah, generally he confirmed what's been theorized around here.

Things were delayed for different reasons, all of which are common in this industry:

1) Some existing features were delayed to focus on others to ensure release of the product by Xmas 06.

2) Some newer features were delayed because it's rarely a a good idea in Software to add new features and port to a new platform at the same time.

3) Some features have been delayd awating design approval by other organizations.

At least one or more of these covers almost all the features people have been looking for.

In General I'm happy to get the box sooner and have the features appear later. The approval required in #3 is really the only one that worries me.

-Kyle


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

I heard "Goth".


----------



## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Toeside,

I have two Series 3 TiVo boxes with OTA only. Love them. And I may get the best of it all with MRV YOOHOO. (do not pollute your Series 3 with cable cards).


----------



## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Silverdragon, thanks for the post - I didn't have time to get through all of it, but what I caught was good news.

Looks like I'm going to have to pull the trigger on getting that new ChannelMaster to make sure that my OTA channels are as rock solid as I can make them and move all of my SPs over to them...


----------



## TroyB (Oct 20, 2006)

I thought it was both good news and bad news. He says the update is coming in weeks not months but then also says that MRV, TTG, and E-SATA will not be included in the update because he says when it does come "later" it will not be for all channels only for those which can be received without the cable cards "No Digital Content"

The biggest bad news I heard was and correct me if I am wrong but it almost sounds like Tivo is getting out of the hardware business and is going to concentrate on deals such as the Comcast Cable deal, because he also says there is no plans or anything to deal with the Bi-Directional cable card issue. Which means if you are with a cable company that uses switched video now or when newer channels come you can either get used to not having those channels or get the Cable Company DVR. Either way the cable company still has everyone at their mercy. Oh yea, if you think Cable Labs (which is owned by the cable companies) is ever going to approve something that lets you use someone elses equipment taking revenue away from them, guess again. The only thing that will ever help series 3 owners like myself is if the FCC steps in.

And Last Don't forget they still have you because you can't use the S3 like you want and in 2008 when all channels will ONLY be broadcast in Digital the S1 and S2 will be useless.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

TroyB said:


> And Last Don't forget they still have you because you can't use the S3 like you want and in 2008 when all channels will ONLY be broadcast in Digital the S1 and S2 will be useless.


1) you've got your date wrong
2) that's only for OTA.


----------



## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

TroyB said:


> I thought it was both good news and bad news. He says the update is coming in weeks not months but then also says that MRV, TTG, and E-SATA will not be included in the update because he says when it does come "later" it will not be for all channels only for those which can be received without the cable cards "No Digital Content"


He corrected himself and said not for any digital content via cable cards. Digital via OTA, both SD and HD, sound like a go. :up:

Edit: er, wait... just played it again. Maybe I'm hearing what I want to hear not what he is saying,... 

5m10s - 5m30s 
How are the rest of you interpreting what he is saying there?


----------



## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Am I being blind or is this not on iTunes yet? (Thanks for podcast links though!)


----------



## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

Is it possible that we will see MRV / TTG in some variation? Maybe full MRV and TTG that gets disabled if you enable cablecards? Or TTG and MRV only on analog and OTA?


----------



## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

hookbill said:


> No, I did not misunderstand. See the above.


I think you did misunderstand. 

He said Tivo2Go and MRV "later this year." 4m50s mark

Software release to enable TivoCast (ie 8.1) in "weeks, not months". 8m20s mark


----------



## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

It looks like he's had to answer these questions from sun up to sun down... I don't think what's in his head always made it out his mouth in sync. (I've been there. *grin*)

I'd filter what he said as meaning the first iteration of TTG/MRV will be for unencrypted content. Which means anything analog -- cable or arial -- is unquestionablly fair game. Digital OTA should also be fair game, but who knows what manner of "broadcast flag" poo might taint it. Unencrypted digital cable _should_ be open, but I don't know that Tivo, Inc. will do that in the first release -- from a code perspective, there's alittle more work for that case.

He's mistaken about the bidirectional issue -- he may simple not be aware of it. But, there is a certification process for bidirectional hardware. LG had one at CES. The fact that the Comcast moto box has a tivo interface means Tivo, Inc. has an OCAP interface. (of course, Tivo, Inc. might be the writers of Comcast's OCAP application, which would make perfect sense... the tivo ui as an OCAP application. Evil. Yes children, that means it's all in JAVA(tm). I think I just made myself sick.)

But he's right to say Tivo, Inc. isn't currently interested in making a *new* cable tivo. They _just_ made this one. And it's pretty far from done. In a few months (year?) when the standards have firmed up and the cableco's finally figure how to make cableCARD(tm)s work -- remember how long it took for any stability in the cablemodem world? -- Tivo, Inc. might change their mind and design the S4 or the "holy-grail-dongle" for the S3.

PS: Someone needs to update the FAQ taking note of his careful answer to multistream cableCARD(tm) 2.0 capability: the series 3 is _technologically capable_ of using a multi-stream card, but it has not yet been certified to do so. Currently, there are plenty of problems with using 1.0 cards; the absolutely spankin' new 2.0 cards are sure to be an even bigger mess, at first. Let's see how many of the CC1.0 problems go away with the fixes reportedly in 8.1.


----------



## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

cramer said:


> Let's see how many of the CC1.0 problems go away with the fixes reportedly in 8.1.


Does anyone think that 8.1 will actually have fixes for the S3? I was kinda thinking it would just bring it in line with the S2 software. Fixes may not come until 8.2. Just a wag.


----------



## missiontortilla (Sep 26, 2006)

Did anyone else notice that the TiVo software running on the monitor in the video is widescreen and is not stretching out the text! Look at how much extra room there is to the right of the text!!


----------



## Saturn (Apr 10, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> Does anyone think that 8.1 will actually have fixes for the S3? I was kinda thinking it would just bring it in line with the S2 software. Fixes may not come until 8.2. Just a wag.


As a software developer, I'd bet a paycheck that there will also be bug fixes in 8.1.


----------



## phototrek (Mar 20, 2005)

missiontortilla said:


> Did anyone else notice that the TiVo software running on the monitor in the video is widescreen and is not stretching out the text! Look at how much extra room there is to the right of the text!!


To me looks the same as on my 8.0.1c unit....


----------



## VanGoghLikesTivo (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm glad to hear TivoCast is coming in a matter of weeks. Hopefully TiVo will fix other Series 3 bugs at the same time.

As an OTA-only Series 3 user, I'd like to see TiVo implement TivoToGo, MRV, eSATA, etc. for OTA content ASAP without waiting for CableLabs. TiVo admits no certification is required to implement these features for OTA content, yet it sounds like TiVo plans to delay these features for OTA content until CableLabs certification comes through for the cable content.


----------



## hookbill (Dec 14, 2001)

greg_burns said:


> I think you did misunderstand.
> 
> Software release to enable TivoCast (ie 8.1) in "weeks, not months". 8m20s mark


OK...I did make a mistake, I took TiVoCast as TiVo to Go.

It's amazing what one's mind will do to make you think you heard what you want. I was so sure, I'd of bet one of my cats on it.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

cramer said:


> He's mistaken about the bidirectional issue -- he may simple not be aware of it. But, there is a certification process for bidirectional hardware.


He's exactly correct about the bidirectional issue. Namely, that there are certain issues, functionality, and capabilities that would be neccesary for Tivo to release a two-way Tivo that remain undefined / unresolved.

Just as an example, under the current specs and licensing agreements, Tivo could not release a two-way device that allowed for Tivo to access SDV channels via Tivo software. No recording of SDV channels via Tivo software would be possible ... no Wishlists, no Season Passes, no buffer / trick play. The ability to do this for Tivo remains undefined / unresolved.

Sure they could implement the OCAP DVR interface. This would allow you to pay the cable company to download their DVR software and access and record SDV channels via their software. The cable software would have complete control of the hard drive, tuners, screen, etc. The only DVR functionality that would be possible would be the DVR functionality provided by the cable company ... not by Tivo.

I don't think either of these options is what customers (or Tivo) expects from a two-way Tivo. I don't think it's possible for Tivo to release a two-way box at all untill these (and other similar issues) are resolved / defined.


cramer said:


> PS: Someone needs to update the FAQ taking note of his careful answer to multistream cableCARD(tm) 2.0 capability: the series 3 is _technologically capable_ of using a multi-stream card, but it has not yet been certified to do so.


The first CableLabs Certification Wave for multistream devices is Jan. 11 - Mar. 15 2007. Since Tivo was involved in setting the creation of the certification procedire (test procedures, etc.) I'm pretty confident they'll be able to pass in the first certification wave.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

cramer said:


> The fact that the Comcast moto box has a tivo interface means Tivo, Inc. has an OCAP interface.


No it doesn't.

In fact, Tivo has described their architecture a bit and calling it an 'OCAP' interface would be a bit of a mistake.

Tivo has used the TVWorks TVNavigator middleware for the Comcast Tivo UI.

Now, while TVNavigator is "OCAP-ish" or "OCAP-like" and is very similar to OCAP and indeed is designed as an "OnRamp To OCAP" and applications written for the TVNavigator middleware should be _mostly_ compatible to run under OCAP ...

TVNavigator is not OCAP. There are some distinct differences.


----------



## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

MRV, TTG? How about the ability to order movies over the internet to play on TIVO? I had to laugh when I saw Apples announcement on the new iTV - TIVO has effectively had the technology to do this for a very long time, but Apple beat them out the gate. If it plays in High-Definition, I'll buy the Apple iTV before the TIVO S3. Of course, Apple iTV is going to have some competition from the new device from Sling that purports the same features - but likely opens up the video choices to those not based on Apples proprietary DRM. Maybe there is a chance that TIVO will have the feature now that Netflix has announced plans to offer a video download service. 

MRV - Verizon already offers this in areas where they offer cable TV. And, now Motorola just announced their new Follow Me TV - both products beat the MRV feature from TIVO because its real-time, no waiting on the show to transfer, and you can pause in one room and start viewing in another. 

TIVO's interface still trumps all others, but I don't know anyone other than those on this board who are willing to pay the price of a TIVO box just for the interface. The S2 was close enough to the cost of a Cable provided DVR to justify the price premium for the better interface - not so the S3 particular with the loss of MRV and TTG. 

Storage is an issue with all the products when it comes to HD - at least Tivo has the ability to expand the internal hard drive. 

My needs are simple - I want the ability to get content from multiple sources (recorded, downloaded from the internet, live, or from my computer), and I want to be able to view video, preferably in HD, from my computer, iPod (or similar portable device) or my HDTV in any room in the house. And, I want enough upgradeable storage so that I don't have to choose between watching or deleting current content in order to make room. And, last, I want the technology to be able to support multiple formats and DRM (I don't pirate music or video, I'm willing to pay for it, but these DRM wars are forcing me to apply DRM stripping techniques just to play on my own devices what I legally paid for). 

I honestly thought TIVO would be the first out the gate with such a product. Now, I think its game over - and their only chance for survival is in the marketing of their still vastly superior interface for recording tv. Right now, with the dizzying array of technology coming out, I'm going to sit back and wait for that perfect solution which now doesn't feel so far off.


----------



## Mike Farrington (Nov 16, 2000)

puckettcg said:


> MRV, TTG? How about the ability to order movies over the internet to play on TIVO? I had to laugh when I saw Apples announcement on the new iTV - TIVO has effectively had the technology to do this for a very long time, but Apple beat them out the gate. If it plays in High-Definition, I'll buy the Apple iTV before the TIVO S3. Of course, Apple iTV is going to have some competition from the new device from Sling that purports the same features - but likely opens up the video choices to those not based on Apples proprietary DRM. Maybe there is a chance that TIVO will have the feature now that Netflix has announced plans to offer a video download service.


I agree. It's embarrassing TiVo hasn't launched anything in the movie download arena.


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

My presumption was that the TVNavigator platform is for the installed base of Cable DVRs. 

With a successful port to this OCAP-lite, the next move is dictated by the schedule- it has to be made in time for when inventories run out of Cablecardless DVRs after the July 7 integration ban. 

You have to have some sort of OCAP dvr software running on the Cablecard DCH3416 or DCH6416. 

Since it is Java, of course the promise was that java apps will run virtually on any OCAP box, so Time Warner etc could sign up for Tivo for their Sci Atl boxes.

My bet is that the reality will be that machine quirks will force custom versions of the Tivo OCAP app to be created. Not huge barriers, but enough to undercut the argument of tieing a VM to network access control.

Tivo could support either CEA's modified MCard, or it could support Beyond Broadband Technologies OCAP-less solution without any collisions to its hardware strategy. DT pointed out why there is a huge collision with OCAP. Of course Denny is saying there is no plan, since the FCC has not made up its fricking mind on how it is going to resolve the impasse on bidirectionality.

The 10,000 foot view as I see it is that the cable companies are immovable from their OCAP position, and significant forces have piled up against them from the CE industry. I simply don't see how it can go OCAP's way. Ideologically it goes against both conservative (anti interventionist) or liberal (anti monopolist) for them to effectively create a vertically integrated "ecosystem" (pseudo monopoly call it what you will) for the cablecos. Cynical political analysis also runs against OCAP, because even though cablecos have a ton of campaign bucks to contribute to political leaders who could influence the FCC, this analysis would force us to believe that Intel, Microsoft, Philips and Sony are all politically naive and without the resources at least to cancel out any attempts of cableco's to "grease the wheels". 

So that leaves the FCC in at worst a politically neutral environment with the freedom to force support of the modified MCards, forcing support of Beyond Broadband Technologies' downloadable scheme, or more likely some crossmixture concieved in the heat of the political moment.

Will it happen in 2008? 

Time to put up or shut up. Ok. I'll bet a donut there will be mandated OCAP less solution in 2008. 

Jelly filled.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> My presumption was that the TVNavigator platform is for the installed base of Cable DVRs.


Correct. And those based on the installed base of DVRs like the DCH series from Motorola and the CTM series from Scientific Atlanta.


Justin Thyme said:



> With a successful port to this OCAP-lite, the next move is dictated by the schedule- it has to be made in time for when inventories run out of Cablecardless DVRs after the July 7 integration ban.
> 
> You have to have some sort of OCAP dvr software running on the Cablecard DCH3416 or DCH6416.


No it isn't and no you don't. The DCH and CTM boxes are perfectly capable of running the exact same non-OCAP non-middleware native apps that cable has deployed on their existing boxes. There is absolutely no need to have OCAP and / or TVNav / and or whatever new solutions that cable is deploying to be available concurrantly with these new CableCard boxes.

And, quite frankly, the DCH and CTM boxes both have the same issue in that while a full OCAP stack may certainly be (in theory) possible on these boxes ... you probably wouldn't be too eager to deploy it in actual production any time soon.


Justin Thyme said:


> Since it is Java, of course the promise was that java apps will run virtually on any OCAP box, so Time Warner etc could sign up for Tivo for their Sci Atl boxes.


Time Warner is a little bit of a different situation. They are going along their own "OnRamp to OCAP" but via a slighly different path. Time Warner has made a deal with OpenTV to start deploying their middleware. They are going native -> OpenTV middleware -> OCAP while Comcast and Cox are going native -> TVNav -> OCAP.

To make the story short, I don't see Time Warner / Tivo any time soon ... although the possibility is certainly there (later).


Justin Thyme said:


> My bet is that the reality will be that machine quirks will force custom versions of the Tivo OCAP app to be created. Not huge barriers, but enough to undercut the argument of tieing a VM to network access control.


Certainly an issue while we're dealing with these 'precursors' to OCAP. TVNav and OpenTV are certainly different enough that you'd have some quirks porting between the two and need custom versions. Porting from either of these two 'precursors' to OCAP isn't automatic either ... there's some work that's going to have to be done to accomplish that too.

However, once the cable companies actually start deploying the hardware / software to actually support full OCAP stacks ... no ... there's not going to be any custom versions or tweaks to make things work platform to platform.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Would it be a reasonable assumption that TiVo is working on an OCAP version to run on the "Real Next Generation" (RNG) panansonic DVR's that comcast ordered last CES? 250,000 units with an option for a million in the first year- likley they have cablecard from tidbits someone else gleaned someplace.

How many DVR's does comcast probably buy in a year? Would a deal for 250k - 1mil boxes mean that Comcast is bailign on moto for cablecard dvrs and will use the panny version?


curious what people think.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> Would it be a reasonable assumption that TiVo is working on an OCAP version to run on the "Real Next Generation" (RNG) panansonic DVR's that comcast ordered last CES?


Define 'working on' ...

I would assume that Tivo has a pretty good idea with what would be required to develop a full OCAP version of their software. That as they are working on the Comcast / TVNav version they are noting any deviations / differences / whatever from OCAP and figuring out (roughly) the architecture / details of what they are going to have to do to port over to OCAP and "RNG" / other OCAP boxes that are being announced ...

However, I would certainly not assume that they are actually actively working on such a port. Quite frankly, I'd take it as a pretty safe bet that they are not doing so ... but will be looking at the initial trials / rollouts of the Comcast / Cox software and seeing how things go from there ...

See Dave Zatz's response from Tivo:


> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-01/tivo-os-build-for-ocap/
> 
> In conjunction with development deals with Comcast and Cox, TiVo has announced that it is porting its DVR application to non-TiVo hardware, such as Motorola DVRs. This development work is built on a Java-Based pre-cursor middleware to OCAP. Efforts to port the TiVo application to OCAP are subject to ongoing business discussions between TiVo and its cable partners.





MichaelK said:


> How many DVR's does comcast probably buy in a year?


DVR's from Panasonic? In 2007? Mmmm, probably Comcast buys about 100 for lab test purposes. Ok, if things go really really really well ... perhaps they'll have 5,000 - 10,000 and actually be deployed in one or two markets ... but ... I wouldn't be on it. It's just as likely they'll have 0.


MichaelK said:


> Would a deal for 250k - 1mil boxes mean that Comcast is bailign on moto for cablecard dvrs and will use the panny version?


No, not at all.


----------



## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

TroyB said:


> I thought it was both good news and bad news. He says the update is coming in weeks not months but then also says that MRV, TTG, and E-SATA will not be included in the update because he says when it does come "later" it will not be for all channels only for those which can be received without the cable cards "No Digital Content"


Even this is vague. The S3 can receive unencrypted digital cable channels (SD or HD) without cablecards, so is it "No Digital (Cable) Content" or "No Encrypted Digital (Cable) Content"?

As for the delay, They need to change the software to make this distinction and that takes time. I think they either put this off to get the box out earlier, or they delayed it hoping a decision from Cable Labs would com esooner rather than later, or both. I can understand that.



> The biggest bad news I heard was and correct me if I am wrong but it almost sounds like Tivo is getting out of the hardware business and is going to concentrate on deals such as the Comcast Cable deal, because he also says there is no plans or anything to deal with the Bi-Directional cable card issue. Which means if you are with a cable company that uses switched video now or when newer channels come you can either get used to not having those channels or get the Cable Company DVR.


I agree he said 'No Plans', However I don't think that means they're getting out of the Hardware business. It's impossible for them to make plans right now since the technology they would need to use is a moving target. There is talk all over about CableCARD 2.0 but from what I've heard it's all talk, no standard have been ratified and aggreed to by the players involved.



> Either way the cable company still has everyone at their mercy. Oh yea, if you think Cable Labs (which is owned by the cable companies) is ever going to approve something that lets you use someone elses equipment taking revenue away from them, guess again. The only thing that will ever help series 3 owners like myself is if the FCC steps in.


I agree, unfortunately, it may take the FCC stepping in - hopefully they'll do so. I aggree with Justin's Political analysis, the money on either side seems even. I think however that between reducing the number of boxes they have to buy, maintain, etc. the cable companies will see reduced costs, and with the increase of devices out there that can make use of $$ generating services (VOD, PPV, etc) I think they'll see overall increased profits... if not revenues.



> And Last Don't forget they still have you because you can't use the S3 like you want and in 2008 when all channels will ONLY be broadcast in Digital the S1 and S2 will be useless.


As someone else said, that's only over the air. Cable will carry analog for much longer it seems. Switched Video is a bigger concern on Cable than the removal of Analog.

In either case though both OTA, and through Cable, The FCC is supposed to make sure that low-cost (purchasable I believe) converter boxes are available that will allow you old TV and Analog S2 Tivo to continue working (albeit with an IR blaster - Hopefully there will be a converter that works over the serial port.)

In this way the S2 is actually more protected from Switched Video than the S3.
(I wonder what it would have cost to allow the S3 to control an external converter box?? Hmm. - That may turn out to be it's Achilles heal after all.)

-Kyle


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> ...DVR's from Panasonic? In 2007? Mmmm, probably Comcast buys about 100 for lab test purposes. Ok, if things go really really really well ... perhaps they'll have 5,000 - 10,000 and actually be deployed in one or two markets ... but ... I wouldn't be on it. It's just as likely they'll have 0.No, not at all.


this BLOG makes some mention of deployment this year but doesn't say how many:

http://blog.ncta.com/PaulR/archive/2007/01/09/31.aspx



> In the Panasonic booth, you see what was labeled as "High Definition on Demand." The display included an HD-DVR and an Interactive Digital Cable Ready set, both based on the Open Cable Application Platform. The demonstrator explained that Comcast was going to deploy the set-top box this year, with the TV going on sale in 2008.


----------



## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

kjmcdonald said:


> In this way the S2 is actually more protected from Switched Video than the S3.
> (I wonder what it would have cost to allow the S3 to control an external converter box?? Hmm. - That may turn out to be it's Achilles heal after all.)
> 
> -Kyle


Would it not be reasonable to expect a USB gizmo of some sort? If the need and demand presented itself, TiVo (and others?) could build an adapter that plugged into the S3's USB port, and the other end was a Serial Port or IR Blaster, etc. to control an external tuner device.

I don't know if it'll ever be needed, or ever actually appear... but it's technically feasible


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

also scanpa at avs is reporting beta at 4 headends getting beta OCAP early in 2007.


----------



## kjmcdonald (Sep 8, 2003)

TydalForce said:


> Would it not be reasonable to expect a USB gizmo of some sort? If the need and demand presented itself, TiVo (and others?) could build an adapter that plugged into the S3's USB port, and the other end was a Serial Port or IR Blaster, etc. to control an external tuner device.
> 
> I don't know if it'll ever be needed, or ever actually appear... but it's technically feasible


If you open up that route, then it not that much of a stretch to offer a box that sits inline on the Cable feed, and plugs into the USB port, and adds all the upstream signaling hardware that the tivo would need for Switched video and other 2 way features. The problem is those standards aren't decided yet.

-Kyle


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> this BLOG makes some mention of deployment this year but doesn't say how many:
> 
> http://blog.ncta.com/PaulR/archive/2007/01/09/31.aspx


It makes mention of STB deployment ... doesn't say anything about DVR deployment. Also, just says deployment. Deployed as in "a few boxes in lab trials" or deployed as in "actually available in customers' homes"?

Yes, I would not be surprised at all to actually see a few thousand Panasonic STBs out in the wild by year-end.

DVRs, however, would suprise me (unless, like I said above, things go absolutely positively swimmingly).


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> also scanpa at avs is reporting beta at 4 headends getting beta OCAP early in 2007.


Which Comcast said at last year's CES would happen in 2006:
http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2006/06_pr_ocap_ces_010506.html

Seriously ... you've got to learn to adjust cable's press releases a little for thier own particular definition of time and space (which seems a little different from everyone else's).


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> It makes mention of STB deployment ... doesn't say anything about DVR deployment. Also, just says deployment. Deployed as in "a few boxes in lab trials" or deployed as in "actually available in customers' homes"?
> 
> Yes, I would not be surprised at all to actually see a few thousand Panasonic STBs out in the wild by year-end.
> 
> DVRs, however, would suprise me (unless, like I said above, things go absolutely positively swimmingly).


good points about deployed or whatever- but the article says "the boxes" after it talked about 2 items being shown 1) dvr OCAP boxes and 2) ocap tv's- so ii'm just assuming (I know I know  ) that "the boxes" = 1) DVR OCAP boxes


----------



## bubba1972 (Mar 28, 2005)

What does this mean for people like me who's cable company simulcasts both digital and analog. I don't have the option to record an analog version of a channel to have a TTG version of the show... Do you think a digital SD recording would be supported with Tivo to Go. Are they protecting digital recordings or HD recordings?


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> Which Comcast said at last year's CES would happen in 2006:
> http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2006/06_pr_ocap_ces_010506.html
> 
> Seriously ... you've got to learn to adjust cable's press releases a little for thier own particular definition of time and space (which seems a little different from everyone else's).


made me laugh-

guess it's like DBS and everyone else "doubling HD channels"- if you count east and west network feeds. Whole house DVR by "year end" and never showing up. "67 Markets by Year end" and then Jan 1 roles around and there are only 40-50 in total.

I'll stop being so wishfull and put on my reality hat!


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bubba1972 said:


> What does this mean for people like me who's cable company simulcasts both digital and analog. I don't have the option to record an analog version of a channel to have a TTG version of the show... Do you think a digital SD recording would be supported with Tivo to Go. Are they protecting digital recordings or HD recordings?


cablelabs requires that Tivo protect FLAGGED DIGITAL content. THe problem appears to be either that cablelabs doesn't think TiVo is capable of determining what is flagged or what is not. OR that cablelabs beleives TiVo cant protect flagged content and TiVo doesn't want to write the code to differnentiate beween flagged or unflagged digital content.

So it's likley that all digital content will be off limits to begin with.

There's a smaller chance that all the qualifiers the TiVo people mean to say is it will work on everythign but "flagged digital content" but since none of them have muttered anythign even close to that it seems unlikely.

If your cableco similcasts Analog and digital- A FEW folks have reported success having their accounts flagged to receive the ananlog versions so this type thing wont be an issue. However if your company is moving to digital like that then likeluy at some point (maybe the ananlog broadcast shutdown in 2009?) they will jettison analog all together.


----------



## wolverines (Jul 15, 2005)

puckettcg said:


> Now, I think its game over - and their only chance for survival is in the marketing of their still vastly superior interface for recording tv. Right now, with the dizzying array of technology coming out, I'm going to sit back and wait for that perfect solution which now doesn't feel so far off.


Sorry, but when people make comments like this it just cracks me. Tivo was dead when HD came out too, but here we still are. Maybe one day someone will combine the product and interface to compete better with Tivo, but just not yet.

I have to admit - I had high hopes for the Apple TV product, but having looked at the details, no way. It basically requires me to go through iTunes, download to my PC, then transfer / stream (whatever it does) to the Apple TV. That's far too many steps. In fact, that's exactly what you will be able to do with the Series 3 according to this interview. He said they have an update that will allow for the Tivo to take wma, mpeg, etc. and move that from the PC to the Series 3. Plus the Apple TV doesn't have any DVR functions (at least not yet), the main reason I use a Tivo.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

wolverines said:


> ... He said they have an update that will allow for the Tivo to take wma, mpeg, etc. and move that from the PC to the Series 3. Plus the Apple TV doesn't have any DVR functions (at least not yet), the main reason I use a Tivo.


the next version of tivodesktop (2.4) is supposed to have that autotranscode function built in. THe gist I gathered is that you would download the videos to a particular folder and then the tivo desktop would convert it to a flavor MPEG that the tivo likes and allow you to upload it to the tivo.

There was an app in development called tv harmony or something that actually did/does that already. It was a free beta. I stopped bothering to play with it when tivo made their announcement about the new tivo desktop so I'm not sure of the current status of the 3rd party 'ware.

there's all sorts of thread and blog posts about it. I think cnet or someone even got a demo.


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

dt_dc said:


> DVR's from Panasonic? In 2007? Mmmm, probably Comcast buys about 100 for lab test purposes. Ok, if things go really really really well ... perhaps they'll have 5,000 - 10,000 and actually be deployed in one or two markets ... but ... I wouldn't be on it. It's just as likely they'll have 0.No, not at all.


If true, then the announcement Michael referred to- the CES2006 announcement of a comcast deal for 250,000 panasonic OCAP DVRs was at best deceptive. In communications with the FCC, NCTA even quoted the 250K deals with Panny and Samsung (don't recall how many with LG) as evidence of momentum in favor of OCAP.

Are you saying that the NCTA is engaging in an easily disprovable charade?


dt_dc said:


> There is absolutely no need to have OCAP and / or TVNav / and or whatever new solutions that cable is deploying to be available concurrantly with these new CableCard boxes.
> 
> And, quite frankly, the DCH and CTM boxes both have the same issue in that while a full OCAP stack may certainly be (in theory) possible on these boxes ... you probably wouldn't be too eager to deploy it in actual production any time soon.


Sure, but it's their funeral. If they are not willing to deploy OCAP, it seriously undercuts their argument to the FCC that the FCC should mandate OCAP as part of the identical and network access solution- whether with cablecards or with DCAS. Can they afford to back off at the moment CEA is pouring on the pressure for their ocap-less solution?

Motorola claims DCH 3416 and 6416 support OCAP. No "in theory" about it. THat is the product definition according to Moto. Sure, I suppose any engineer is entitled to a healthy skepticism about any product that is not yet deployed, but these new units are supposedly designed to run OCAP, whereas the retrofit solution of TVnavigator was because the current installed base of DVRs was not intended for OCAP.

There's a clear distinction there that deserves to be recognized, regardless of one's skepticism of Moto to deliver an OCAP DVR at a pricepoint acceptable to Comcast.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> ...
> 
> Are you saying that the NCTA is engaging in [a] ... charade?...


of come on- NCTA not being completely truthful? That would never happen?

LOL

Actually- i think one of the original footnotes that the FCC used in their ruling against comcast was the 250,000 box purchase. So It would be funny as hell if Comcast's own "optimistic" press release was used against them in their attempt to get a waiver....


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> If true, then the announcement Michael referred to- the CES2006 announcement of a comcast deal for 250,000 panasonic OCAP DVRs was at best deceptive. In communications with the FCC, NCTA even quoted the 250K deals with Panny and Samsung (don't recall how many with LG) as evidence of momentum in favor of OCAP.
> 
> Are you saying that the NCTA is engaging in an easily disprovable charade?


No. The cable (Comcast, Time Warner) / CE (Panasonic, Samsung, LG) deals are definately evidence of OCAP momentum.

Reading these deals (especially without being privy to the particular details) as meaning that Comcast will have a large number of OCAP based Panasonic DVRs deployed this year is ... well, it's reading way more into the press releases about these deals than was actually there.

The FCC, NCTA, and CEA know exactly what these deals mean. And yes, "evidence of momentum" is a good way to describe it. "Evidence of 250k Panasonic DVRs deployed by Comcast this year" is not what these deals mean and would be a rather poor / unrealistic way to describe it.


Justin Thyme said:


> Sure, but it's their funeral. If they are not willing to deploy OCAP, it seriously undercuts their argument to the FCC that the FCC should mandate OCAP as part of the identical and network access solution- whether with cablecards or with DCAS.


Oh, gee, you're right. How could cable _ever_ get retail devices to support something first (in order to make retail devices possible) years before they have to support it themselves (common reliance). That could never, ever, possibly happen could it? CableCard products at retail ... when was it, 2004? CableCard STBs actually being deployed by cable ... July 2007 (probably, not-withstanding further FCC, Court, or Congressional acts).

Retail availability without common reliance (in the short term) could just never, possibly happen eh?

Cable is certainly in the process and will deploy OCAP.

Whether or not is in widespread use by cable on their own STBs first before retail devices first start to appear ... or not ... well that's certainly a question and point of contention.


Justin Thyme said:


> Motorola claims DCH 3416 and 6416 support OCAP. No "in theory" about it. THat is the product definition according to Moto.


I believe the exact quote is that they "support the OCAP initiative".

Motorola has shown their OCAP stack running on a DCT-6412 too. Don't see anyone deploying it (or even talking seriously about doing so). Cox has stated they plan to run trials this year.

Mention OCAP and a box together in the same press release and people just jump to all kinds of assumptions.


----------



## cramer (Aug 14, 2000)

dt_dc said:


> He's exactly correct about the bidirectional issue. Namely, that there are certain issues, functionality, and capabilities that would be neccesary for Tivo to release a two-way Tivo that remain undefined / unresolved.


Actually, he said two things. First, that there's no standards track/certification process for bidirectional devices. It's not very old, but there is a certification process. Second, that they haven't gotten their head(s) around how to prop the tivo ui on top of the OCAP environment ("EE" - Execution Environment). That part's spot on... there aren't any OCAP systems to test against, yet.

That said, making the _hardware_ bidirectional is actually pretty easy. Bolt on an RF modulator and a cable modem. Even without full OCAP compliance, it would give cable operators two-way access to the cableCARD(tm), which allows full remote diagnostics. (and it might reduce the instances of firmware download hangs.)

Let's clarify what "OCAP" really means. OCAP means two things: a hardware platform [java], and the application(s) that run on it. Building an "OCAP box" is like building a PC. The applications are the Windows's and Linux's that we run on a PC. (I'm over simplifying, but I'm not writing a 700page spec.) On the plus side, that means your STB is a generic device that will work on any cable network. The bad part is it's running software designed by, or for, the cableco; so you get whatever crap they give you. (that's why the specs call the STB a "terminal".)

SDV is not part of any public standard -- as far as I can find. That makes it a "SAS" in the OCAP world -- a propietary application running within the OCAP EE. Personally, I don't think SDV is going to be as a big a problem as people think. If they drop the analog channels, they'll have plenty of space for digital stations. SDV is a stop-gap; offering 1000 channels to 10,000 people, 100 switched channels at a time won't be pretty. (of course, TW will do it anyway, just for spite.)


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

dt_dc said:


> No. The cable (Comcast, Time Warner) / CE (Panasonic, Samsung, LG) deals are definately evidence of OCAP momentum.


Momentum requires mass. You assert no shipping Panny units, therefore no mass, no momentum. Volumes of working OCAP units in homes that are not financed by Cable companies but by consumers choosing to buy OCAP over non OCAP units is momentum.

I simply don't see how they can make it in time to forestall acceptance by the FCC of an OCAP less standard. The cable companies had a window of opportunity and they missed it. They will try and bend reality, but both the FCC and the court rulings have shown that this is a fruitless tactic.

Really poor execution. A major strategic blunder, but not suprizing given their corporate cultures. They still hold a lot of cards, but we'll see if they can manage to realign themselves as technology driven companies. That's really tough, and I sincerely wish managers in those companies good luck. They own a lot of infrastructure, and the country would do well to have more companies will killer technology instincts. Apple, Intel, and Microsoft are not fated to win this, but the cable companies are playing like intramural college teams against pro football players.

It's almost juvenile. Cable: "Oh yeah- try and virtualize out network interface? we'll virtualize your hardware. Neener. Neener."

I expect that Verizon's moves will be a lot more interesting to watch.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Momentum requires mass. You assert no shipping Panny units, therefore no mass, no momentum.


Comcast, Time Warner, and Cox will be taking delivery and deploying large numbers of OCAP 'next generation' STBs from Panasonic, Samsung, and LG by xx/yy/zz (unspecified, but relatively near-term date). If this does _not_ happen, then Comcast, Time Warner, Cox, Panasonic, Samsung, and LG will all be losing $$$ (unspecified, but relatively large amount).

There is mass (and momentum) for OCAP from these deals both in terms of:
1) The OCAP units that will be shipped as a result of these deals
OR
2) The amount of money all parties to these deals will lose if those units do not ship

Now, we can read the happy / optimistic / planned for press releases and industry publications based on those press releases and paint a picture of large scale Panasonic OCAP DVR deployments by Comcast this year ...

We could try and dig up the contract details and find the pessimistic dates and termination clauses and so forth ...

Or ... we can look around the industry and realize (as usuall) what's actually most likely to happen is something between these two extremes ...


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Future tense. Units that will be shipped, otherwise money that will be  lost.

That's momentum future tense.

And Future momentum of what? Momentum of Cableco's buying/subsidizing units. So it's not only future momentum but meaningless momentum. Cableco's can spend all the money they want and it does not indicate any groundswell of movement in consumer demand or CE industry support of the OCAP platform.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Future tense. Units that will be shipped, otherwise money that will be  lost.
> 
> That's momentum future tense.


Past tense:
Money that was put on the table last year.

Present tese.
Money that is growing with additional / follow-on deals (like the more recent Cox / Samsung one).


Justin Thyme said:


> And Future momentum of what?


Momentum that cable and some CE companies are spending resources to implement OCAP.


Justin Thyme said:


> Momentum of Cableco's buying/subsidizing units.


If that's what it takes, sure. However, I was specifically referring to the deals that were referenced earlier in this thread. There have been follow-on deals (between the same parties) revolving around commercial availability of OCAP devices at retail outlets.


Justin Thyme said:


> Cableco's can spend all the money they want and it does not indicate any groundswell of movement in consumer demand or CE industry support of the OCAP platform.


At least they're willing to spend money. The CE industry can't even be bothered to spend the time to actually write a spec. Their proposal(s) include such wonderful specificities as "methods to be determined in future, forthcoming specifications" and "OCAP version X".

So one party is spending money delivering and deploying _something_ ... while the other party can't even spend the time and money to even fully specify what they _want_?


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Oh, I think Intel, Microsoft and Sony are motivated to take the fate of the living room out of the hands of CableLabs, and I think they are a teensy bit more familiar how to write specs than cablelabs is.

Given the tone of Martin's remarks at CES, it will be interesting to see what if any role the FCC will allow Cable companies in formalizing the CE industry driven specifications for their OCAP-less proposal.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

eelton said:


> He wasn't explicit about it, but it sounds like it will be for analog and OTA rather than CableCARD channels--at least initially. Still, it's a start.


Finally got the chance to listen to this. I think we really NEED that transcript.  First let me say I was listening on the built in desktop speaker in an office so it was muffled like no other. But the way I hear it-

- I did NOT hear him say that TTG/MRV would initially be for analog/ota and then digital cable would come later. He said that there are 2 kinds of content- what goes through the cablecard and what doesn't and that there are different rules for the cablecard content when it goes out in a digital form. He said that they are ' in the midst (sp?) of getting that certification (from cablelabs) NOW'. And then he said he wanted to "set the expectation" that those 2 different kinds of content might have different restrictions- that they 'might be handled differnently. So looks lime we might get TTG/MRV for cablecard stuff at the same time as for analog and digital OTA but obviously all the restrictions required by cablelabs will be enforced (TTG might not be permitted, CCI restrictions on the number of copies between boxes, etc)


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

other bits I heard

he also said they 'were in the midst" of getting m-card approval.

He specifically mentioned online scheduling coming to the comcastivo. Could be via ethernet but then again could be through a comcast website and they send the data down the coax?


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> he also said they 'were in the midst" of getting m-card approval.


The first CableLabs Certification Wave for multistream devices (M-UDCPs) is Jan. 11 - Mar. 15 2007.

Tivo was part of working with CableLabs to help set up the M-UDCP verification process ... you can be dang sure they've submitted the S3 as part of this (first) Certification Wave.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> The first CableLabs Certification Wave for multistream devices (M-UDCPs) is Jan. 11 - Mar. 15 2007.
> 
> Tivo was part of working with CableLabs to help set up the M-UDCP verification process ... you can be dang sure they've submitted the S3 as part of this (first) Certification Wave.


I was fairly certain before that myself. But now it's almost official.

Mostly I was glad he used the exact same phrase for M-card approval, which we all think they are activley doing, and TTG/MRV/Tivogaurd/content futzing approval. In the past cablelabs denied tivo even asked for approval on the content moving front, so i'm hoping that means they submitted their application and it is now being worked through...

"midst" could have 100 differnt meanings so just becasue they are active with M-cards we cant be assured they are active with the other so i could be reading into it but it's nice to hear them described the same way.


----------



## shady (May 31, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> The first CableLabs Certification Wave for multistream devices (M-UDCPs) is Jan. 11 - Mar. 15 2007.
> 
> Tivo was part of working with CableLabs to help set up the M-UDCP verification process ... you can be dang sure they've submitted the S3 as part of this (first) Certification Wave.


The only benefit I can see for using a multi stream card in the Series 3 would be that I'd save $1.50 per month, but Comcast will still charge me for the truck roll!! hence no savings!


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

shady said:


> The only benefit I can see for using a multi stream card in the Series 3 would be that I'd save $1.50 per month, but Comcast will still charge me for the truck roll!! hence no savings!


Again, where the integration ban will (most likely) come in handy ...

I'd expect to see alot more (certainly not all, but more) cable companies offering CableCard self-install options as the year goes on.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

shady said:


> The only benefit I can see for using a multi stream card in the Series 3 would be that I'd save $1.50 per month, but Comcast will still charge me for the truck roll!! hence no savings!


For many of us with other providers it's a bunch more then 1.50/month.

Many get charged for the second card and the program mirroring/addtional outlet fees. So it can be multiples of the 1.50 comcast typically charges for the second card.

but you bring a good point- how much less does it have to be to make up for the truck roll....


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> Again, where the integration ban will (most likely) come in handy ...
> 
> I'd expect to see alot more (certainly not all, but more) cable companies offering CableCard self-install options as the year goes on.


we can hope.

question:

My cable provider will allow you to drive to the business office and pick up a box and then bring it home and self install it- most seem to follow that model. Come july 1 (or shortly thereafter?) in theory if I drove down I'd have a good chance of picking up a cablecard box (they could have a mix of returned 'legacy' boxes i suppose). So hypothetically would they be allowed to permit self installs of their own cablecard boxes but insist on a truck roll to put cards in our devices?

It feels like that would run big time foul of the FCC's intentions. But does it say someplace specifically that would be a no no? And they would likley argue that they have enough control over the few models of boxes they stock that it would be "safe" to allow self installs of those.

Drifting off topic but- is it possible for John Q public to buy moto or SA boxes now? Come July 1 is it possible that people could buy the next generation moto or SA cable box with the card slot instead of leasing and then just call their provider for a card? WOuld a moto box work with an SA card and vice versa?


----------



## LCD1080 (Dec 13, 2006)

It seems to me like the eSATA port activation and TTG on the S3 would likely occur at the same time (for digital content). The reason I say that is because TTG is allowing programs on the S3 to be transferred to a PC hard drive. As far as Cable Labs is concerned I can't see any difference between that and allowing programs to be transferred to an external hard drive through eSATA. 

I think what I'll do is get a new PC with two terabyte hard drives and use that as a large storage repository for programs that don't fit on the S3's 250GB hard drive. As long as TTG is enabled later this year it really shouldn't matter whether or not the eSATA is activated.


----------



## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> question:


That's why I said "most likely" and "as the year goes on" and "more but not all" ...

I'm not saying that all of a sudden on July 1, every cable company that allows self-installs for STBs are going to suddenly have self-install options in place for CableCards ... or that they'd be required to by the FCC (maybe they would be, probably not, I dunno).

But perception-wise and reality-wise (perhaps even more powerful than regulation-wise) ... cable companies that offer self-install for their own CableCard boxes are going to have to at least start thinking about getting their self-install procedures for CableCard in order ...


MichaelK said:


> Come July 1 is it possible that people could buy the next generation moto or SA cable box with the card slot instead of leasing and then just call their provider for a card? WOuld a moto box work with an SA card and vice versa?


The problem is having compatible software ... not compatible cards.

For example, my cable company currently uses Scientific Atlanta boxes. One of those new CableCard boxes for cable companies that Motorola has announced will 'work' with my cable system from a pure conditional access standpoint. Ie, I'll be authorized to get the channels and services I subscribe to (if I get a Scientific Atlanta card from my cable company).

However, the software won't work. No VOD, etc. Heck, guide data may not even be in a compatible format (no EPG, DVR functionality, etc). About the most I would expect would be basic channel-surfing ... and heck, that might not even work depending on how the box is expecting (and handles) OOB data ...

However, if I get one of those new Scientific Atlanta boxes they announced ... thats compatible with all the software my cable company uses ... then yes, it should work (or at least, be able to be made to work) with a CableCard from my cable company.

That's where OCAP (and other possible ways) for handling the software side of things come in to play.

For example, if my cable company deploys OCAP software than any OCAP box (from Scientific Atlanta or Motorola or whomever) will 'work'. However, my cable company won't be deploying OCAP software by July 1 (or heck, this year) so ...

The Scientific Atlanta boxes should work on Scientific Atlanta networks and the Motorola boxes should work on Motorola networks. Dunno if there are any plans to sell Scientific Atlanta / Motorola boxes at retail ... I wouldn't be surprised to see a few pop up in some markets ... but, I wouldn't think it would be too common either.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Dennis Wilkinson said:


> Looks to be here:
> 
> http://www.technologyevangelist.com/2007/01/ces_jim_denny_tivo.html


Link brings me to a blank page. silverdragon, got another link? You mentioned a transcript, that'd be cool too.


----------



## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Fofer said:


> Link brings me to a blank page. silverdragon, got another link? You mentioned a transcript, that'd be cool too.


Might be a server hiccup. The article is still there for me.


----------



## Fofer (Oct 29, 2000)

Yup, working now. It didn't last night, in my insomniac stupor.


----------



## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Got bored changing diapers and transcribed. Removed extraneous ums and ribald jokes but otherwise a pretty direct transcription. Anyone want to suggest corrections of stuff I missed, let me know and I will make edits to bring it up to snuff.

















Jim Denney is no relation of Martin Denny, but is cool anyway because he has the look of one of those quiet maniacs and makes stuff happen in Tivo's product marketing group. They even gave him a title of VP, so reporters would think he knows what he is talking about. We know this is not always a valid correlation, but we won't hold it against him. ​
[This interview was conducted by "Benjamin" at http://www.technologyevangelist.com "TE"]

The Interview:

*TE*: What are the new announcements for Tivo at CES?

*Denney*: So this year at CES we announced a few different things. One was we are working with a company called Music Choice to make, as a TivoCast partner- so downloadable content- to make music videos available as a new content type for TivoCast. Another was working with RealNetworks to make Rhapsody available on the Tivo. So for broadband connected Tivos youll be able to access your Rhapsody playlists and stream Rhapsody and play it back on your Tivo.

Both those will be later this year.

The other thing we announced here at the show, were showing the Comcast Tivo software running on the Comcast Motorola set top box.

*TE:* Whats interesting and new about the Comcast version of Tivo. How is that different to say the Series 2 or Series 3?

*Denney:* Well one of the big differences is that it is delivered via software update to the Comcast set top box. So its substantially Tivo. Its a dual tuner HD device, because it is the platform they have out now. But it runs a Tivo UI with very nice integration of On Demand into that UI.

*TE:* So it is a lot like a Series 3 that will do high definition video, itll have the Tivo UI, for recording, playback, all that fun jazz

*Denney:* Right. It terms of core DVR it functions very much like a Series 3. What the difference between the two is the integrated box has On Demand. The Series 3 focuses on broadband and some of the other broadband applications, and some of the other standalone like features that we have.

*TE:* So the Comcast box can do the two way communication with the head end, you can do the pay per view events, you can do the on demand events, but it cannot do the broadband that the Series 3 can do, so cant do the downloaded shows- stuff like that.

*Denney:* Correct. And there are other features that would potentially follow on that it just wont do out of the gate. Things like kidzone, online scheduling, and things along those lines. Theres a list of features that differentiate both the Comcast box- which will be a great device when it hits the market as well as the Series 3.

*TE:* Are we waiting for Comcast to deliver the boxes?

*Denney:* Well the boxes are out. So this will run on all the DVRs that they are deploying today, but its a matter of rolling the software out into their network, so thats really under their control. So they said theyd be rolling it out over the course of this year. So just later this year.

*TE:* Lets talk about the Series 3 for a moment. Cause youve got your Series 2 which is essentially your standard definition box. Youve got your Series 3 which is your high definition box. The series 3 has a nice new front plate, its got the OLED display- thats all cool, but there seems to be a feature disconnect between the Series 2 and the Series 3 with the broadband content. The core functionality is essentially the same. I can record my shows high definition, standard definition, over the air. But TivoToGo the Ethernet port- it seems like Ive got a lot of features on the Series 2 that I am missing on the Series 3.

*Denney*: Well so- when we were developing the Series 3, we wanted to make sure we focused on the core DVR functionality. So we focused on the physical aspects of it, the OLED display on the front that shows you whats being recorded at any given time, the industrial design of it, the remote control thats backlit so we focused a lot on the physical features of the series 3. We also focused a lot on performance and playback. So, we wanted to make sure that HD files are bigger theres a lot of new technology in it. Its the first cablecard device weve made. So we had to get the cablecard to work. We had to go through the certification process. We worked with THX to make sure it was THX certified- in that we modified some of the ways that the video is treated to hit the THX requirements for both video and audio. So we focused a lot on performance and kind of core DVR functionality knowing that we can update software on the box to unleash some of the other features as it goes down the course.

Plus, the other thing you see is, some of it is a function of development timelines, development schedules. Youre developing a platform at the same time youre developing new features for the Series 2. You dont want to do that on a platform that you are still developing so you want to lock down a set of features. Once that platform is locked down, we can work on enabling some of the other features. So I think the things youre talking about are things like multi reviewing and TivoToGo, specifically. So well update software on the box to enable both those later this year. We are working on it. It is actively being developed.

Theres also another process we have to go through for all the digital content. So theres two different content types the Series 3 deals with. One is analog content, or over the air content, which has a different set of rules for content handling than does digital cable and HD or premium channels that come through the cablecard. So programs the come through the cablecard are handled differently than the programs that dont come through the cablecard.

*TE:* Will that affect my TivoToGo and other features like that when the product is released for the Series 3?

*Denney: * Well there are two things. You have to go through a CableLabs process, a certification process to let content out a digital output on any cablecard product. So we are going through that certification now. Thats also what enables the expandable storage. So basically any time any bits go out, the cable industry wants to make sure that they are well protected, or at least follow the guidelines that they put forth. So TivoToGo and Multi Room viewing will be released on the Series 3. There might be a difference in what you can do with the digital content that comes through the cablecard and with the analog content that doesnt come through the cablecard.

*TE:* Is that why we are seeing a delay in the external ESata hard drive?

*Denney:* Were going through the certification process now with CableLabs- that continues on, but that is the ESata... that is exactly what we are waiting for to turn the ESata port on.

*TE: * So essentially the problem is not necessarily with Tivo, the problem is with CableLabs really wants to protect their content and force you to go through this process.

*Denney: * Well its a little bit of both. I certainly wouldnt blame CableLabs for all that. The analog content that does not go through the cablelab regulations- its our responsibility to enable that functionality, and like I said- we are doing that.

I just would like to set the expectation that when it does come, there might be some difference in behaviour between those two types of content. And I just dont know yet. So as we get closer through that certification process, Ill have much better insight.

*TE (7:10):* Tivo on the Series 2 offers downloadable content, podcasts and what not but theres kind of this- even on the Series 2- an artificial wall around content, it has to be part of the Tivo network as it were. Whereas if you look at an Icast model, a democracy player, its anyone can join their channel guide, and any podcaster can get in there. Is that something that Tivo is looking at? So were recording this in 1080p, because there really is no reason why this file shouldnt be able to play back on my series 3 for anyone who wants to subscribe to it- manually or automatically.

*Denney*- Well theres probably 3 different questions in there.

One is- just getting content out of the box. The difference between the Series 2 and the Series 3 in terms of TivoCast, which is the direct delivered content. So the Series 3, that got caught in that same, like timing issue, right? We were literally rolling out TivoCast at the same time we were developing the platform. So theres a software release that will be pushed out to the Series 3 in a short period of time, counted in weeks, not months, where well enable TivoCast on the Series 3

*TE:* Oh- Im excited. Thatll be awesome.

*Denney:* ..for the core things that exist on the Series 2 today.

The things like podcasting etc. already work on the Series 3 today. So Yahoo photos and all the Music, Photos, Products and More applications- they already run on the Series 3, so thats not a problem. Guru Guide, enablement, the online scheduling- all that already runs on the Series 3. So in terms of differences between the Series 3 and the Series 2- thatll be brought into parity before multi room viewing.

The second thing was this walled garden idea- the idea you can get whatever content you want onto it. So there are two things. One, theres a category of content we want you to be able to get to on the Series 3 very simply. Wed like to expand that as much as possible and well continue to expand that- but without a PC involved. So in that case it has to be in a format that we know it plays back- theres a level of cooperation that we need, plus you need to be able to navigate the UI to do it. So theres TivoCast partners and well expand those TivoCast partners like we do with Music Choice this week.

Separately, there is an update to the Tivo Desktop software thats underway now, that will be available as a preview version in probably the next couple months. And what that does is build a bridge, just like TivoToGo allows you to bring content from your Tivo set top box to your PC. It effectively allows you to reverse that process. So content thats on your PC can be transferred over to your Tivo. So the first idea up there is just to get your TivoToGo files back but Tivo Desktop Plus and the Sonic Software on the PC, and in fact the new Roxio software for TivoToGo for the Mac all have transcoders in them. So the next version of Tivo Desktop Plus will allow you to bring mpeg4 files or Microsoft windows media files or QuickTime files and it will transcode it and put it into a format that Tivo can play back. So thats the first incarnation of opening a path. So you download a video podcast, or you get something from Google video or wherever and itll transcode it into the right format and the Tivo will play it back and it shows up in your living room.

Were going to evolve that over time. The first release of that will be a preview release, because we want to open it up and we want people to experiment with it a little bit, and get some feedback- whats working whats not. The thing about web video specifically is the number of variables in a video is quite large, so we want to make sure we are transcoding things correctly. So thatll come out as a preview version, then well come out with a release version, and like I said it will support those three formats first, and well evolve the number of formats that bridge is built between.

*TE:* That feels like a good first step but ultimate solution is I firmly believe there is about to be a big war for the living room. And were going to see it with Applea Tv product, I think the contender to Apple Tv, the new NetGear HD product, you [U?- Upnp??], the new Xbox360, the new PlayStation- those are the players on the board now, and its just beginning. Its getting that Hidef content from online to your television and any device thats hooked to your plasma or HD screen is going to become invaluable. And being able to download directly to that device is going to be a huge deal. And you make out points and format or a specsheet that says you video netcasters must follow this specsheet and then your RSS feed must be pre approved, but then you  just like the Apple iTunes directory where they have to preapprove the feed and make sure it works but then once its submitted- off it goes and you know its going to work for the directory- that feels like kind of a logical step to, or just a logical place to go.

*Denney:* Well like I said, well take multiple angles at this. Direct delivery to the set top box, then well use the PC as a bridge between all kinds of content and the Tivo set top box.

The other thing you mentioned was delivery of HD. The other think we planned for the Series 3 was playback of downloadable HD content. So we havent announced timeline or anything like that but the hardware in the Series 3 is capable of playing back VC1 content or AVC for that matter. So well as time goes along, plan on enabling that functionality so that the same type of download capabilities you have for standard definition, the Series 3 will be able to handle decode of HD content at the same time.

*TE:* Right now the Series 3 uses cablecard, the standard original form cablecard 1.0, it will take two single stream card or one multistream card.

*Denney:* Right now its only two single stream cards. The platform is capable of multistream card- technically capable- You need to go through certification. Were in the midst of going through that certification.now.

*TE:* I did not realize See- my cable operator only has single stream cards, but

*Denney:* Youll see more multistream cards appear but

*TE: * but thats one way communication with the box only, thats not bidirectional  thats cablecard 2 I believe is the next version of cablecard and thats as I understand it a totally different form factor [JT- wrong]. So would that be- when those cablecards will come out- Would that be a totally new Tivo? Would that be a Series 4?

*Denney:* Two way cablecard, or two way communication in a context of cablecard is undefined right now. So theres not really a mechanism to build a two way device with two way cablecard under the current rules that allow you to bring your own UI and everything else. Everything that youd need to build a Tivo in a two way environment is not in place. So well have to wait and see. I mean we work with our cable partners, we work with the CEA, we work with the FCC to navigate that landscape accordingly.

In the meantime, for two way like communication, for two way like services, we creating, were using broadband connection to enable things like broadband download and the broadband applications. And well work with partners like Comcast to create an integrated box.

*TE: * Thank you for all your time and all your answers. I realize some of them were hard and you know we are very curious and you have a very passionate community of evangelists [JT- you betcha]

*Denney:* We want to be able to take care of them

*TE:* Well- its good and bad- because even if you make a slight misstep or they dont understand the reasoning behind the decision, they can scream bloody murder but theres usually a very good reason behind every decision made.

*Denney:* We do listen to the customers and we listen to the impassioned pleas- Whether we can fulfill them all or not is a different story. But it definitely goes noticed.


----------



## TostitoBandito (Sep 18, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> we can hope.
> 
> question:
> 
> ...


I self-installed the cablecards in my S3 after picking them up myself at the office, so I don't see why not.


----------



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> Got bored changing diapers and transcribed. Removed extraneous ums and ribald jokes but otherwise a pretty direct transcription. Anyone want to suggest corrections of stuff I missed, let me know and I will make edits to bring it up to snuff.
> ....


thanks for taking the time!


----------

