# Alternative guide source for tivo (xmltv)?



## dr_lava (Jul 28, 2008)

Hello, group. I am experienced with about every hacking possibility for the ReplayTV, but recently have been considering a platform switch to TiVo.

1) Is there a way to feed external guide data from, say, SchedulesDirect or XMLTV sources to the TiVo for it to use instead of 'home' sources data?

2) Is there a detailed wiki documenting a phone-home guide update session including data formatting and protocols?

3) Is there a detailed wiki documenting root shell access and what can be done with the default software load, and what limitations there are?

The ReplayTV platform has an open, free program called WiRNS that runs on an external computer, and acts as a proxy for the replay's phone-home sessions. In doing so, it can inject any settings or guide data sets into the communications of the replay to its home base, and even (except for activation verification) can completely replace the home servers. Perhaps there is something similar for TiVo?

thanks!


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## BTUx9 (Nov 13, 2003)

that constitutes theft-of-service... discussion of which is not allowed on this forum


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## dr_lava (Jul 28, 2008)

Not sure where you get that.. having custom tuned guides doesn't have anything to do with what you stated, and discussion on the topic should be allowed.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

To obtain TV guide data from a source that is free or paid to anyone other than TiVo inc. and as such is theft of the services that TiVo Inc provides with the use of such data on devices licenced by TiVo Inc.


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## dr_lava (Jul 28, 2008)

Maybe there is confusion because of differences on the platforms..
On a ReplayTV, the device service activation is separatable from the guide data source, meaning that alternate guide data can be loaded without 'service theft' because the activation subscription checks remain in place. If anything, it lightens the load on the home servers because they don't have to send the guide, only maintenance and activation updates.
So, can you clarify your statements in relation to the above paragraph?

So far it sounds like you are saying that loading alternate guide data onto a paid and subscribed TiVo is 'theft of service' which doesn't make much sense, since there seems to be no theft. Perhaps it runs counter to restrictions in the EULA?
thanks!


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## BTUx9 (Nov 13, 2003)

if you are paying the tivo subscription, then it IS permissable, but since there's no real way of knowing, and the same tech. can be used for LESS than licit purpoopes, its discussion is discouraged


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## dr_lava (Jul 28, 2008)

Ok, thanks for the answer. I'm glad that most information in life that 'could potentially be used to aid in nefarious endeavors' aren't banned, because that would cover a lot of useful information  Although some countries are sadly headed in that direction. What I recommend in cases like this is to allow the admin to decide what speech to squelch in his discretion, instead of potentially overzealous members doing so because it's tangentially related to a banned topic.
So, for those still bold enough to answer, the original question remains.


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## BTUx9 (Nov 13, 2003)

if you care to do a search, this is FAR from the first time this issue has arisen... I don't feel I'm overstepping *any* bounds here


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

Also bear in mind, as TiVo units are coded to obtain their guide data from one source and one source only, any reprogramming of the unit to get the data from elsewhere could technically be against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.


> It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services that are used to circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works (commonly known as DRM) and criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself.


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## dr_lava (Jul 28, 2008)

Sherminator said:


> Also bear in mind, as TiVo units are coded to obtain their guide data from one source and one source only, any reprogramming of the unit to get the data from elsewhere could technically be against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.


Don't almost all of the 'underground' hacks talked about in this forum involve modifying the software on the system.. but they can be discussed.

By the way I did search for threads relating to this.

You don't need to modify the software to provide another guide. The ReplayTV solution WiRNS provides its own IP as a DNS query response to the home base, and by acting as a proxy, can provide alternate guide data while still requiring a subscription. You see, many people equate getting the guide data with the 'service' when this is not quite the case. on the replayTV side of things, during the phone home event, there are 4 (basic) steps the DVR follows:

1) Determine IP for production.replaytv.net
2) paired-key validate and update the time on the unit to the IP
3) paired-key validate and update the subscriptions status and activation (requires lifetime or monthly)
4) get TV guide (this step is not key validated)

You can intercept 1), you must necissarily proxy and pass-through 2) and 3) to the home server or the whole update fails due to key invalidation. Thus this is not a way to provide 'service theft'. For 4) you can do what you like to provide guide data.

So, you can see in this scheme the (debatably enforceable) EULA section about modifying the software is not broken, activation theft is never even an option, even with access to the WiRNS source code, and everyone's happy. 
So, it can be done.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Sherminator said:


> Also bear in mind, as TiVo units are coded to obtain their guide data from one source and one source only, any reprogramming of the unit to get the data from elsewhere could technically be against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.


Ripping a CD or DVD violates the DMCA. Stripping TiVo's copy protection using tools we freely discuss here does too. Doesn't mean anyone's going to court, that it's enforceable, or even that these actions are illegal.

As to the original question, in Australia and Canada before TiVos were for sale in those regions, folks had hacked together guide data services for modified Series1 (I believe) units.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The simple answer is you can. You simply cannot discuss it here, because, as said, such use of a software could be used to abuse the system, or to essentially "steal the TiVo service (as in make the TiVo work without a paid subscription), or use the TiVo with a pirated TV or otherwise illegal TV source.

FWIW, the Canadian service emulator allowed Series 1s and older Series 2s (with 4.01b software) to fully work without sub, and proxy guide data to subbed TiVos with 5.x or newer software. That is all I am going to say about that subject at all. I will not respond to PMs about it.


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## bugmenever (Feb 4, 2007)

wow, this is the most back ass wards logic I've ever heard in my life. If I could ban this site from ever coming up in a google search again, I would.


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## bobcov (Nov 27, 2010)

classicsat said:


> The simple answer is you can. You simply cannot discuss it here, because, as said, such use of a software could be used to abuse the system, or to essentially "steal the TiVo service (as in make the TiVo work without a paid subscription), or use the TiVo with a pirated TV or otherwise illegal TV source.
> 
> FWIW, the Canadian service emulator allowed Series 1s and older Series 2s (with 4.01b software) to fully work without sub, and proxy guide data to subbed TiVos with 5.x or newer software. That is all I am going to say about that subject at all. I will not respond to PMs about it.


Sad to see such subservient behavior. People go out of their way to make sure they are pleasing corporate masters. In so many ways it's analogous to how citizens conformed in the former soviet union, yet nobody sees it for what it is.

The essential spirit of what made this country seems to be snuffed out. If today's mindset had existed a few hundred years ago, we'd all still be talking British English and gushing over royalty.

The guy asks a simple question and the first thing people do is rush to see how they can not answer it in order to possibly protect commercial interests from being offended. When information is quashed, innovation dies and a little bit of freedom goes with it.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

bobcov said:


> Sad to see such subservient behavior.


I have to agree.

But, why bump a two-year-old thread to say it?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

BTUx9 said:


> that constitutes theft-of-service... discussion of which is not allowed on this forum


Guide data is free. You have to pay to use the Tivo recording features. As such, using different guide data has nothing to do with theft of service. Last time I checked you could get guide data on your Tivo without requiring a subscription to their service. Granted, I haven't checked my disconnected S3 to see if this is still the case with the newer digital cable Tivos but it was definitely true with my older DirecTivos. I would suspect that since you can use an unsubscribed Tivo as an OTA tuner you can probably get guide data as well. You just can't record anything with it without the Tivo service. In any case, getting guide data from an alternative source or discussing it should not violate any forum rules.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

It's a mistake to extrapolate from DirecTiVos. DirecTiVos get their guide data from DirecTV via satellite, like other DirecTV receivers. AFAIK, all DirecTV receivers can get guide data even if they're unsubscribed. There's no incremental cost to DirecTV, since the data is simply broadcast.

Standalone TiVos get their guide data from TiVo Inc., either over the phone or via broadband. This _does_ involve an incremental cost to TiVo Inc. I would be very surprised if they got guide data when they were unsubscribed -- TiVo Inc. should just reject the connection after determining the unit's status. But I don't have any unsubscribed standalones, so I can't verify this.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

wmcbrine said:


> It's a mistake to extrapolate from DirecTiVos. DirecTiVos get their guide data from DirecTV via satellite, like other DirecTV receivers. AFAIK, all DirecTV receivers can get guide data even if they're unsubscribed. There's no incremental cost to DirecTV, since the data is simply broadcast.
> 
> Standalone TiVos get their guide data from TiVo Inc., either over the phone or via broadband. This _does_ involve an incremental cost to TiVo Inc. I would be very surprised if they got guide data when they were unsubscribed -- TiVo Inc. should just reject the connection after determining the unit's status. But I don't have any unsubscribed standalones, so I can't verify this.


You get software updates but not guide data (Series 3 or Series 4 for sure)


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## Sbmocp (Apr 19, 2001)

A l-o-n-g time ago, one of the original TiVo reps used to visit this forum (I think it might have been TiVoPony). The question had come up about TiVo's viability as a company and what would happen to the boxes if the company died. He'd made a "promise" that there was a backdoor in the software to "open it up" in that event, and that 'someone' would get that information to the community so their boxes would still be operable with other sources.

Does anyone think that "promise" still stands, or even that the backdoor still exists?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Sbmocp said:


> A l-o-n-g time ago, one of the original TiVo reps used to visit this forum (I think it might have been TiVoPony). The question had come up about TiVo's viability as a company and what would happen to the boxes if the company died. He'd made a "promise" that there was a backdoor in the software to "open it up" in that event, and that 'someone' would get that information to the community so their boxes would still be operable with other sources.
> 
> Does anyone think that "promise" still stands, or even that the backdoor still exists?


I don't know about the back-door as nobody can make such a so called *Promise* about that, who would you go to if TiVo went away ? Somebody would take over the sub as just that part of TiVo would have profit for many years, no more upgrades etc. Lifetime people in that case might be hit up for some monthly fees, but this is not like some people that got hurt by the likes of Bernie Madoff, if TiVo should go poof, nobody going to have to lose their home, you just go to your Cable Co and get their DVR and take the relatively small $ loss, it does no good obsession about TiVo going poof as people have been doing this for the last 12 years and no poof yet.


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## mrchuckfl (Jan 18, 2011)

Nothing chaps my ass more than this very subject.

Whether it be Tivo, XBox, Wii or your cell phone for that matter, you are buying a piece of hardware.

Granted it contains some proprietary software, but none the less once I purchase that hardware I should be free do with it what I please, which includes removing the software, firmware, etc and using it for whatever purpose I would like.

I am so tired of these companies hiding behind the DMCA to force people pay them for a crappy service or for the purpose of using subpar software.

Now with that being said, I have a Tivo that I had subbed for a couple of years and has been sitting in a box gathering dust. I was exploring the possibility of removing the tivo software and *using the hardware that I paid for * with an alternative solution such as Myth TV or even a port of Google TV. From the jist of this thread I guess that none exists which is a shame because I bet there are tons of these boxes sitting around gathering dust.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

People have run generic Linux distros on TiVos, but that just makes for an underpowered server. There's no open source support for the special hardware, AFAIK (i.e., no display, no accelerated video encoding/decoding, etc.).


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Guide data is free....


Tribune Media Services begs to differ.


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