# BWAAAHHHH!!!! Stupid Tivo!!!



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Failed to record (though it thought it had; no green bar!) Part 2 of Sunday's "Alias" finale Double-Bill  Then again, so did my TV Drive 

Oh well, it's repeated in a month 

Done ranting now


----------



## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

cwaring said:


> "Alias" finale Double-Bill


Hey, I'm still waiting for it to return to Channel 5 (or is it 4??  ).

Still, an interesting coincidence, Tivo and TVDrive failing - maybe they were both hacked to stop you learning the truth...


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Yeah. I was thinking the same thing. Now where'd I put that tin-foil hat?


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

Why not just find a torrent for the episode?


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

hey Carl - what goes around comes around - I have just managed to undelete it from work. You have a PM!


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ciper said:


> Why not just find a torrent for the episode?


Because that's illegal.


----------



## GarySargent (Oct 27, 2000)

cwaring said:


> Because that's illegal.


What's the difference between timeshifting a programme you have paid to view via a TiVo recording, and downloading via BitTorrent? Legally how are these two any different?


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Because one of them involves the unlicenced distribution of copyright material and the other is encapsulated as fair use under the copyright protection legislation?
This appears to be under discussion.

Here is a link which I found that is interesting - the section on "Digital environment" is specifically relevant. It appears that the transmission of TV over the internet is specifically excluded from the timeshifting exception in the "Information Society Directive 2003".
http://www.legal500.com/devs/uk/ip/ukip_187.htm

Not saying it makes sense but then not all legislation does!


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

So does that mean a slingbox is illegal? (relating to what amc posted)


----------



## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

This from *the Late Show with David Letterman F.A.Q.*
*
I missed an episode of the LATE SHOW. Can I order a copy from the show?

Sorry, but we are unable to provide any videotape copies of previous episodes of the LATE SHOW. However, we suggest you visit the "alt.fan.letterman" Internet newsgroup and post a request for the specific show you need there. Chances are good that someone will see your message and be willing to provide you with a copy of their own tape.*

That text hasn't changed for at least six years, but at least shows an acceptance of the disruptive power of the internet on traditional broadcasting.

I think because most of us still do not pay for television, save for the TV License, there isn't a direct monetary relationship between the viewer and the programme maker/broadcaster; therefore, is downloading a programme an obvious loss?


----------



## b166er (Oct 24, 2003)

cwaring said:


> Because that's illegal.


That's questionable. I find it hard to believe that a court would find you guilty for downloading something that you've already paid for the right to see but just happened to miss it (or TiVo did on your behalf). I regularly download UK and US TV shows and feel perfectly happy doing so knowing that back in the UK I pay my TV license and Sky subscription, and in the US I pay my Cable package including HBO.

I wouldn't consider for a second downloading movies, software and music, I've got no convincing argument that I have any right to. But for TV shows that are on the channels I pay for, hell yeah, I'm there and will keep doing it as long as it's available.


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

ciper - not sure. I suspect that no-one really is as the technology moves faster than the lawyers or the TV industry.

It seems that timeshifting for domestic purposes is excepted but you can't move time shifted recordings around the internet? 

IIRC the Slingbox retransmitting Live TV can't be the same thing as bit torrent you as you don't get "anything to keep" but frankly its a minefield and the chances of getting caught are miniscule. 

Buying DVDs in the supermarket car park is far more damaging to the industries involved and your probably more likely to get nicked for that (i.e. you aren't going to).


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

What a strange idea...

Its illegal if you save the show locally for later viewing on your computer with the torrent.

It is not illegal if your tivo saves the show on its hard disk and you use the sling box to watch it later.

From the user point of view both are "watching a show on my computer after it was over" right? 

Anyways in a totally unrelated topic piratebay.org is back up. They have relocated from sweden and now run the servers from the netherlands.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ciper said:


> What a strange idea...


Not really. One way is legal, because you have paid for your TVL and (where necessary) your cable/satellite subs and so have the right to watch the show.

The other way requires no such payments and is therefore illegal. Not sure whether it's theft or copyright infringement, but it's still against the law 



> Anyways in a totally unrelated topic ....


I'm pretty sure promoting illegal activities is frowned-upon on this Forum.


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Drat and darn it!

I had the episode of Alias Carl was referring to.

We delete stuff when we've watched it but it successfully undeleted via TivoWeb. There it was in Now Playing (over the web). I duely asked that no one delete it until I'd had a chance to get it off the Tivo.

Got home last night a bit the worse for wear and looked in "Now Playing" ... no Alias.
Looked in "Recording History" and it showed a really odd reason for deleting it.
From the same screen in Tivo Web

```
Episode Title All the Time in the World 
Episode Description In the second half of this two-hour finale episode, Sydney and her team fight desperately to prevent the machinations of Sloane and Irina from causing a global catastrophe. 
Episode Number  
Duration 1:05 
Original Air Date Sun 16th Jul 2006 
Premiere Type Series Finale 
Actors Jennifer Garner, Ron Rifkin, Victor Garber, Michael Vartan, Carl Lumbly, Kevin Weisman, David Anders, Greg Grunberg 
Producers J.J. Abrams, John Eisendrath, Ken Olin 
Genres Action Adventure, Drama, Suspense 
Type Series 
Channel 138 BRAVOD 
Showing Date Sun 16th Jul 23:00 
Expiration Date Tue 18th Jul 23:00 
Deletion Date Mon 17th Jul 23:54 
Cancel Date Tue 18th Jul 10:26 
Cancel Reason MaxRecordingsNowShowing 
Quality Best 
Bookmark 0:59:15 
Time Watched 0:42:24 
Num Visits 1 
Selection Type Season Pass 
State Cancelled 
Size 2555 MB (estimated)
```
Now it looks like the recording is toast but I'm a but puzzled that Tivo auto deleted it. I only had this episode in "Now Playing" and the default season pass "keep at most 5".
I assume that deleting it and then undeleting it upset Tivo's housekeeping so when it expired last night Tivo decided to delete it not add an "!" to it.
There are pages of suggestions at the moment so space wasn't an issue.

So ramble over here's my question...

If I undelete via TivoWeb should I set a "Keep until I delete" or change the expiry date to prevent this happening again?


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

I guess the end does not justify the means! 

I just thought of something related to what AMc said "transmission of TV over the internet is specifically excluded from the timeshifting exception in the "Information Society Directive 2003"."

I bet thats why HMO was crippled to only work on local subnets (even getting it to work through VPN so far seems impossible). As long as the timeshifted show is transfered to your computer without touching the internet i guess its okay? 

Another fun example, using HMO to transfer shows between two tivos is okay but using a certain other tool to transfer tmf files between two tivos, even in the same house, is bad 


AMc: I had a similar problem along time ago so i searched for the thread that helped me. It is on another forum so Ill summarize/simplify:

When you create many season passes with combinations of save until X and keep X episodes the tivo looks into the guide data and will try to pre allocate space for recordings that will happen in the very short future. So even though the now playing list is short the tivo thinks it will run out of space soon and removes some of the shows with lower priority. Does that sound right?


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

AMc said:


> Drat and darn it!


That's a very restrained way of putting it


----------



## b166er (Oct 24, 2003)

ciper said:


> using HMO


I know I'm going to feel silly when I hear the doubtless obvious answer, but I've googled it and can't find out what HMO means.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Home Media something-or-other? Option, maybe? Probably a US Tivo thing


----------



## swuk (Jan 19, 2004)

AMc said:


> So ramble over here's my question...
> 
> If I undelete via TivoWeb should I set a "Keep until I delete" or change the expiry date to prevent this happening again?


And my question is: how do you undelete something? I must have missed that when I was looking though TivoWeb.


----------



## Fred Smith (Oct 5, 2002)

User interface.

Deleted shows.

Click the 'recycle' symbol next to the Programme Name.

Click 'Yes'.


----------



## ciper (Nov 4, 2004)

HMO = Home Media Option. Here is a short list of features

View jpeg or listen to mp3 on your tv 
Transfer shows between tivos. Record a show in bedroom and watch in living room.
Schedule recordings from the web.
Transfer shows to your computer, psp, ipod video or palm and watch them offline
Burn shows to a dvd and watch them on a regular dvd player

Basically tivo saw all the hacks going on at the _other forum_ and copied them as a new feature. Here is some info on EXTRACTING SHOWS FROM THE TIVO   http://www.tivo.com/4.9.4.1.asp


----------



## sanderton (Jan 4, 2002)

I'm with Bi66er on this. I torrent stuff which I have paid for to view conventionally, and while accepting that this is still against the law, I don't beleive it's against the principles on which the law is based.

If I cancelled my Sky sub and downloaded BSG I feeel that would be immoral. As I have a Sky sub, I don't believe anyone has lost out by my downloading episodes a little early. I also only download HD movies which i've bought the DVD of. I never download music or films which I haven't paid the contributor of in some way.

It all makes sense in my head.


----------



## b166er (Oct 24, 2003)

ciper said:


> HMO = Home Media Option. Here is a short list of features


Thanks Ciper, I'd heard of TivoToGo but not it's alternate name Home Media Option.



sanderton said:


> I'm with Bi66er on this. I torrent stuff which I have paid for to view conventionally, and while accepting that this is still against the law, I don't beleive it's against the principles on which the law is based.


Right on brother! I think we both realize that technically we maybe on the wrong side of the law, but definitely in a grey area. You could compare it to paying for 5 items in the supermarket and getting home to find you've only got 4. In theory you would be within your rights to go back to the store and get another and walk out without paying. You might get caught for shoplifting but if you could definitely prove you had the right to go back and get another item, would a court really prosecute you? It's the best example I could think of on the spot - gimme a break 



sanderton said:


> If I cancelled my Sky sub and downloaded BSG I feeel that would be immoral. As I have a Sky sub, I don't believe anyone has lost out by my downloading episodes a little early. I also only download HD movies which i've bought the DVD of. I never download music or films which I haven't paid the contributor of in some way. It all makes sense in my head.


Same here, I don't wait 8 weeks for Sky one to show the latest 24 episode, I download it instead. As long as I'm paying for Sky one it doesn't seem wrong to me (in my head). I'd be a little more nervous downloading movies just because it raises the likelihood of getting that MPAA letter or knock on the door and having to really test this moral highground we think we're standing on


----------



## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

I'm with you in principal too - I won't and don't download things I could buy in the shops but there are things I do choose to do that are outside the letter of the law but I believe are morally defensible - like trying to send Carl that programme.
Personally I've steered clear of bit torrent etc. because I rarely miss anything (thanks Tivo) and what I do I can live without.

Copyright law is in a mess; for instance it is not within UK copyright restrictions to use iTunes to rip your CDs to your computer for use on your iPod. In the US this is considered "fair use" but not here. So strictly everyone should be purchasing all the content to fill a 60GB iPod at the iTunes store - or using their own non-copyright works  - So that's roughly 15,000 x £0.79 plus £299 for the unit and volia your £12,149 iPod!  That's patently ridculous which makes it harder for people to respect more rigorous application of the same legislation to protect the owners and producers of copyright work from counterfeiting etc.

----back to the original topic----

It's ironic that the sponsor of Alias on Bravo is Telewest and so the primary advertiser - the one with the 'most to lose' if Carl downloads the episode - is also directly responsible for the equipment that malfunctioned causing him to miss the show.  

When my last cable box died it happened during Alias and the only we missed while Tivo couldn't watch cable for us was ... the repeat of that episode of Alias.
I suspect it's part of a wider conspiracy, one that penetrates the secret services of all the major nations...


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

AMc said:


> Personally I've steered clear of bit torrent...


I tried it once and couldn't get it to work  I suppose I might, for educational purposes only) try to get it to work if someone would like to PM me an idiots guide 



> Copyright law is in a mess; for instance it is not within UK copyright restrictions to use iTunes to rip your CDs to your computer for use on your iPod. In the US this is considered "fair use" but not here.


Spent the last ten minutes trying to find the relevant article on the BBC's News site but can't. However, I think that this is now okay in the UK too.



> It's ironic that the sponsor of Alias on Bravo is Telewest and so the primary advertiser - the one with the 'most to lose' if Carl downloads the episode - is also directly responsible for the equipment that malfunctioned causing him to miss the show.


Indeed. Apart from the Tivo side of things 



> I suspect it's part of a wider conspiracy, one that penetrates the secret services of all the major nations...


You never know


----------



## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

cwaring said:


> ISpent the last ten minutes trying to find the relevant article on the BBC's News site but can't. However, I think that this is now okay in the UK too.


No its not still OK in UK to rip CD's to MP3 !!! However professionals DJ's, who have been doing it for years. A mate of mine a DJ for a big radio station used to prepare his whole show at home/at work and produce a 3 hour MP3 which would go out on air. He (or his radio station) now has £200 licence to allow him/them to legally rip CD to MP3.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4609378.stm


----------



## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

Channel 4 is streaming its output over t'Internet at *http://www.channel4.com/livetv *.

I don't know if you can save them to disk, though.

You need to use Windows Media Player and be in the U.K. and, as they say
*programmes such as Deal or No Deal, Big Brother, the Paul O'Grady Show, Countdown, Channel 4 News and Supernanny were all commissioned by Channel 4, and will be available to watch on the Live Simulcast. Other programmes such as Friends, Lost and Desperate Housewives were acquired from American broadcasters and will not be viewable on the Live Simulcast.We are also unable to broadcast films and racing.*


----------



## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

cwaring said:


> Spent the last ten minutes trying to find the relevant article on the BBC's News site but can't. However, I think that this is now okay in the UK too.


Not quite, it's still against the law but the BPI have said they aren't going to prosecute anybody who copies legally bought music for their own purposes


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Yeah, that was it. Still can't find the relevant article


----------



## sjp (Oct 22, 2001)

fwiw. i've still got it if you want it carl. PM me


----------



## NickDvl (Oct 31, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> Hey, I'm still waiting for it to return to Channel 5 (or is it 4??  ).


Me too! Unfortunatey we'd be better off buying the DVDs (or legally/illegally getting the torrents).

According to Channel 5's FAQ: "Following its poor performance, we have decided not to acquire Series 4 of Alias at present."  
I bet if they rescreened it from the start at a reasonable time (between 9pm and 11pm), they'd get more viewers than the dreadfully boring Lost on Channel 4!


----------



## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

NickDvl said:


> According to Channel 5's FAQ: "Following its poor performance, we have decided not to acquire Series 4 of Alias at present."


Thanks for the bad news. 

What is it with terrestrial TV and Sci-Fi/Fantasy? 
They shunt it away into the wee small hours (Alias etc.)
or think it's for kids on put it on at tea-time, then realise it's too much for kids and edit all the violence/sex out of it (Angel, Buffy etc.)?

Remember how Channel 4 started Angel at 6.00pm? They hacked it to shreds; so much so, it didn't make any sense, either dramatically or as a business decision (buy a quality prog and then remove all the interesting bits).

BBC2 did the same with Star Trek:TNG and the rest.

I believe in the US, these shows are on in prime time, because they're viewed as adult drama.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

ericd121 said:


> Remember how Channel 4 started Angel at 6.00pm? They hacked it to shreds; so much so, it didn't make any sense, either dramatically or as a business decision (buy a quality prog and then remove all the interesting bits).


There's a simple rule that schedulers should work to. If you have to cut it too much, it's in the wrong slot.

It's not difficult 



> BBC2 did the same with Star Trek:TNG and the rest.


I was never aware of _that_ much editing on Trek, though I know they (until reletively recently) refused to show a certain episode, the name and premise of which escapes me right now


----------



## ericd121 (Dec 12, 2002)

cwaring said:


> I was never aware of _that_ much editing on Trek,


Neither was I at the time, but a lot of violence was cut out on the first showings of TNG.

One episode of TNG I became aware of told the story of a conspiricy at the head of StarFleet, where the leaders had been taken over by creatures living in their bodies (the usual story  ).

Riker and co. went round killing admirals, most of which action was cut.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

While not the episode I was thinking of, that was the one I should have been theking of; if you see what I mean 

Also, I don't think anything was cut. It's just that the BBC simply banned the episode, at least on it's first showing. I think it was shown the last time round.

The following is a verbatim quote from _"Star Trek: The Next Generation - The Continuing Mission. A Tenth Anniversary Tribute"..._



> One of the most controversial episodes of The Next Generation's first season was "Conspiracy," in which small parasites infested Starfleet personnel. its gruesomeness went considerably beyond what was expected for Star Trek television at the time.
> 
> The most notorious sequence involved Picard and Riker confronting Starfleet inspector, Dexter Remmick, who was host to the "mother" creature. At first, Remmick's throat is seen to bulge ominously. The effect was courtesy of air bladders, placed under a false neck, being inflated by makenp supervisor Michael Westmore, who was hiding behind Remmick's chair.
> 
> ...


 There was another episode in which, IIRC, a (retrospective) reference to the NI situation was edited out by the Beeb.


----------



## Nebulous (Nov 28, 2005)

cwaring said:


> I know they (until reletively recently) refused to show a certain episode, the name and premise of which escapes me right now.


I believe it was "The High Ground" that was banned the first time around, on the grounds of the NI situation. I believe the leaders name "Finn" was a factor the the decision.


----------



## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

There you go! Good to know I'm not the only trekkie/trekker on here


----------

