# Dish Network vs. DirecTV



## stevela123 (Feb 10, 2003)

OK, I'm sure this thread is around somewhere, but here it goes. I'm a very long-time DirecTV customer, but am moving and will be inheriting an HDTV. I spoke first with a DirecTV customer service rep, who did not appear to be the brightest apple in the cart. So here are my questions:

1. HD programming on Dish seems to have more offerings right now. I tend to prefer to look longer term (at least the 18 month committment one might make with Dish). Is there any prospect of DirecTV adding any real national HD content in the next 12 months?

2. The DirecTV CSR said that their HR10-250 will NOT receive (not just it will not record) any of my local channels in HD. I assume that has to do with the switch over to MPEG4 streams. I thought LA was still receving MPEG2 HD locals, which would allow the HR10-250 to receive and record my HD locals over satellite.

3. If I have to go OTA to get my HD locals, I'm a good 40 miles from Mt. Wilson, which is the spot in LA where the locals do their transmitting. I assume I'd need a hefty OTA antenna to lock in the OTA transmissions? Any recommendations on an antenna that is not an eyesore?

4. Aside from price issues, any thoughts on the relative pros and cons of going Dish vs. DirecTV?

Thanks


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

1. I think DTV will reach parity with DISH in a year or two. But you have to look at exactly what is available rather than how many channels each has. If one service has what you want and the other doesn't, that's a deal-breaker, no matter how many channels they have that you won't care to watch.

As far as parity with PVRs, I expect them to be on the same level there in a year or two also. Currently the DTivo is a significantly better choice than what DISH has, or what DTV will eventually offer, and it will not become obsolete any time soon. Once DTivo goes away, one service is about the same as the other.

2. You have a good handle on the situation. Expect the M2 locals for some time.

3. If you don't need low-V actual channels (ignore the virtual channel numbers) the best choice is the Channel Master 4228 with a 7777 preamp. Small, cheap, light, effective. It is the best UHF antenna, yet gets 7-13 well also.

4. I left DISH after 8 years, and am much happier with DTV, so you know where my allegiance is up front. But much of that was due to lousy PVRs. DTivos are much better. In my experience, customer service is better. The PQ of SD is very close. I left before HD, so I can't comment on HD PQ on DISH, other than I hear it is slightly better on some channels on some programs for 1080P owners.

I expect both of the two services to be like Coke vs. Pepsi in another 18 months, with a fair if meager selection of HD, bad PVRs comparitive to Tivo, and similar PQ. We can only hope that FIOS, cable, VOD, etc. drive them to be better than that. I would expect OTA on a HR10-250 or Series 3 Tivo to be the pre-eminent platform for some time. The ComCast Tivo looks like a winner, also.


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

Tyrone may have jumped ship too soon. I have read that the dish vip622 is better than all their previous dvrs. It reminds me of when I dumped D* for comcast five months ago several people posted how horrible the moto6412 was. 

The latest moto seriesIII works perfectly and blows the HDTivo away. I have used replay tv, ultimate tv, tivo series 1 and 2, HDTivo, rca2160, sony DHG HDD500 and moto 6412 III and the moto6412 has the FASTEST interface of them all. The HDTivo is THE ABSOLUTE SLOWEST of them all. 

As far as reliability, every DVR I have owned has done a great job at recordings and season passes. The only exception is the HDTivo's ability to record local HD via OTA. It was awful. I cringed every time I scheduled a recording on a windy day. I am so glad those days are over!!!!!!

Since switching to cable, I have better PQ, more HD content and reliable, fast HD dvrs.

My suggestion is to try dish or cable. Both allow for contract termination (anytime with cable and 30 days with Dish) if you're not satisfied. With D* you are locked in right out of the gate so try them after exhausting your other choices.

If cable or Dish works out for you, you WILL be happier with more HD content and local HD channels broadcast over satellite \ cable and not OTA, especially if you are 40 miles out. 

I believe D* was the best between 1999 and 2005 and I spent alot of money with them during those years. Today it's a different story.

Tomorrow it will probably be FIOS TV.....who knows??!!...........

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

fastep said:


> Tyrone may have jumped ship too soon. I have read that the dish vip622 is better than all their previous dvrs...


 With luck, each new model is typically better, regardless if you are talking DVRs or chimichangas. But from 2001 to 2005, the opposite seemed to be the case at DISH. The DishPlayer was their first and best effort, which they abandoned for some really bad home-brew PVRs, which they then broke and/or removed features on. When they eventually couldn't even get the clock to work reliably, that was it for me. If their latest PVRs were in the same league as the HR10, I think we would have all heard that news by now. Unfortunately, nothing else really is.

I truly wish that DISH and others would get in the game and compete with Tivo, as I have no allegiance to Tivo for the sake of Tivo, just that they're the only really good platform there is right now so they deserve all the accolades they get, whether grudgingly or not. But I don't want them to get too fat and happy, either. Competetion is good, especially for those of us who shell out the cash. If someone brought out a HR10-killer, I'd be the first one to sing its praises, even if it came via DISH. I think the discriminating poster here can recognize the difference between allegiance that is earned and "fanboy" blind allegiance. 

I respectfully would like to go on record saying that I think your guess about my moving to DTV is fairly presumptive, since you have little information about why, and especially since the "jump" happened 18 months before I moved to HD, which was not a factor in the move. I would not characterize it as "jumping ship" as much as simply losing patience with a vendor that slowly and eventually betrayed my loyalty, and then realizing that there was a significantly better alternative. That makes it more of a no-brainer choice rather than a "jump".


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

While dish has more channels of HD, the content of those channels is of little interest to many many people. My cousin had VOOM before it closed up and the HD channels were lacking content. It was like having lots of Discovery type channels. Great demo programming, but little with any plot. You can only spend so many hours watching close up of bugs and nature, or news and cartoons. As someone said, look at what is on all those HD channels and see if it interests you. 

Most of what I watch comes in over the air from the local channels. 40 miles is not too far at all to pick up reliable reception of local channels over the air. If antenna size is a concern, get the Channel Master 4221. It's similar to the 4228 but half the size. Nothing compares to the TIvo interface. Yes, it's slow sometimes, but it's easy to use and reliable. If most of what you watch are series TV shows, then HD Tivo is the one to get.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Runch Machine said:


> While dish has more channels of HD, the content of those channels is of little interest to many many people. My cousin had VOOM before it closed up and the HD channels were lacking content. It was like having lots of Discovery type channels. Great demo programming, but little with any plot. You can only spend so many hours watching close up of bugs and nature, or news and cartoons. As someone said, look at what is on all those HD channels and see if it interests you...


 There is a good reason VOOM is not here anymore, and I think you put your finger on it. Adding a lot of HD channels with questionable content might be a good business move for E* because it gives them the illusion of having a lot to offer, especially if they got those channels at a bargain price (which they probably did) and have the bandwidth (which allows them an "F-you!" to DTV, also). But once you understand the realities of that situation you also realize that as a potential customer it might be a good idea to inspect their HD pak closely to see if there really is anything there for you of unique value.



Runch Machine said:


> ...40 miles is not too far at all to pick up reliable reception of local channels over the air. If antenna size is a concern, get the Channel Master 4221. It's similar to the 4228 but half the size. Nothing compares to the TIvo interface. Yes, it's slow sometimes, but it's easy to use and reliable. If most of what you watch are series TV shows, then HD Tivo is the one to get.


The 4221 is also a great antenna, but has a lot less gain and a lot less ability to reject multipath interference. The farther you are away, the more gain you need and the more multipath you will experience due to earth curvature, generally speaking. I would recommend something a bit better once you exceed 25-30 miles.

Both the 4228 and the 4221 are UHF-only antennae, so that is something to take into account if you need VHF. The 4228 does get 7-13 pretty good, but that is only due to a happy accident of its construction. The 4221 may not have that same serendipity for VHF. www.hdtvprimer.com could shed some light on this, very likely.

That's not to say the 4221 won't work for at least UHF at 40 miles, under the right circumstances you can get DT from 90 miles away. But your chances of continued glitch-free reception decrease with distance, foilage, and uneven terrain, so for a few extra bucks and a little more heft, I can't see why not to get the best, first.


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

fastep said:


> Tyrone may have jumped ship too soon. I have read that the dish vip622 is better than all their previous dvrs. It reminds me of when I dumped D* for comcast five months ago...
> 
> ...Since switching to cable, I have better PQ, more HD content and reliable, fast HD dvrs...
> 
> ...I believe D* was the best between 1999 and 2005 and I spent alot of money with them during those years. Today it's a different story...


Beware of the troll.

Check out this guy's other posts before you take anything he has to say seriously.

EVERY post is about slamming D* and promoting his beloved Comcrap, so, although he MAY have an interesting point somewhere in all his whining, remember to take it with a grain of salt!


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## fastep (May 22, 2004)

Guindalf said:


> Beware of the troll.
> 
> Check out this guy's other posts before you take anything he has to say seriously.
> 
> EVERY post is about slamming D* and promoting his beloved Comcrap, so, although he MAY have an interesting point somewhere in all his whining, remember to take it with a grain of salt!


I only slam things that deserve it - like OTA HD and slower than snails dvrs (HR10-250).

I have actually USED almost every dvr (except the Dish ones). I am trying to offer my opinion based on real-life trial and error, not speculation.

I believe you call me a troll because you seem upset that you have no decent alternatives to the HR10-250 in your area. That is not my fault - don't hate me!!

The way I see it - you only offer hearsay about other choices which doesn't really serve anyone looking for opinions about HD programming\recording choices.

Try other DVR's and participate in discussions about today's best alternatives for recording and receiving HD programming.

Frankly, your posts are one-sided in favor of the HDTivo. How do you know it's the best if you have never compered it to anything else? I have heard of hating change but come on!! Sometimes change is a good thing!

Change (competition) can only serve the end users (us) with more programming choices and better dvrs at lower prices. If we all stayed put and "settled" for crap, companies like D* will never raise the bar for its customers. Is that what you want? Not me.

If you want to be helpful, try one of the other HD Dvrs out there and report your comparisons to the HDTivo. I promise not to call you a "troll" for stating your opinions as you actually SEE them.

Until then, contribute when you actually have something to contribute!!

Maybe one day you will be free of contracts, a slow-a$$ hd dvr, stupid OTA antennas and limited, compressed HD programming. Then you can help others discover what you discovered - through trial and error!!!!

The operative word is "HELP" ..............................


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## jm_sullivan (Dec 10, 2003)

just a couple of simple comments:

1. Antennas can't be stupid. The people who developed the HD OTA standard are fair game to be called stupid. Aiming Antennas isn't easy. I'd say it is similar to aiming your own dish. Some people can do this, some can't and some are lucky. There are experts for hire available to help you out in both cases. Crystal clear OTA HD is not a myth, but your location may cause your mileage to vary. 

2. Comcast. This company's service made me decide to never do business with them again. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who agree. For a while D* was much better service; since the Murdoch purchase that has declined. I can still get to someone that cares at D*'s phone support if I take enough time. I never got to anyone at Comcast who cared about anything relating to my service. No matter what product Comcast comes out with now, I'll never be their customer unless it is the only option.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

jm_sullivan said:


> ...Antennas can't be stupid. The people who developed the HD OTA standard are fair game to be called stupid...


They are also fair game for being called exceptionally brilliant. If you look at the enormity of the task, it's surprising the transition has been as smooth as it has, so far. The task was to begin with an environment already very cluttered with legacy RF, duplicate the coverage for 1500 stations simultaneously, wean everyone to the new system, and shut off the old one. That could have been a recipe for disaster, but has proven to be very workable.

There are always problems with big change, and the bigger the scope of that change the bigger the problems. Anyone living in Boston knows what this means--just mention "The Big Dig" to a Bostonian. This is the national electronic equivalent, and it is going comparitively much smoother. The ATSC was nearly as inspired as the Founding Fathers were, and the success of the DT transition can then be considered positively Jeffersonian.



jm_sullivan said:


> ...Aiming Antennas isn't easy...


But it's really not difficult. Understanding what you are dealing with is the key, and discarding the thinking patterns relevant to NTSC is a part of that. Everything you need to know can be found right here on this forum, in fact.

And, BTW, now that I recognize the author (not Jim), the "troll" theory seems to make a lot of sense.


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

jm_sullivan said:


> just a couple of simple comments:
> 
> 1. Antennas can't be stupid. The people who developed the HD OTA standard are fair game to be called stupid. Aiming Antennas isn't easy. I'd say it is similar to aiming your own dish. Some people can do this, some can't and some are lucky. There are experts for hire available to help you out in both cases. Crystal clear OTA HD is not a myth, but your location may cause your mileage to vary.
> 
> 2. Comcast. This company's service made me decide to never do business with them again. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who agree. For a while D* was much better service; since the Murdoch purchase that has declined. I can still get to someone that cares at D*'s phone support if I take enough time. I never got to anyone at Comcast who cared about anything relating to my service. No matter what product Comcast comes out with now, I'll never be their customer unless it is the only option.


Your comments are insulting and wrong! Have you ever installed a satellite dish OR a TV antenna? Installing an over the air antenna if much easier than installing a satellite dish. When installing a dish you are aiming to pick up a signal that has a beam width of less than a quarter inch.

In most cases when you are installing a TV antenna you can be within 25 degrees of where you should be directionally and still get a perfect digital signal. OTA is a peice of cake to receive in most instances in most metropolitan areas. This is because most of the local TV stations broadcast from a shared facility or facilities that are near each other. As long as you aim in the general direction of the TV towers, you are set. This assumes you live within a 50 mile radius or the transmitter site.


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## Hersheytx (Feb 15, 2003)

I think that in some areas like San Diego, Houston or very upscale areas of the US, you will find very good cable options. But in most of the U.S. you find cable companies trying to get by on the old copper lines laid out in the late 70s early 80s. 
In Grapevine, Texas Verizon has laid out their FIOS stuff. I have a friend who has it for his internet and now TV. It is amazing. I think it is the only thing I have seen in 12 years that would give me a reason to switch from DTV. 
I happen to be in a building in Dallas, Tx with the offices for Comcast. Its their marketing/advertising department. They develop themes for commericials and make media buys. I talk to them everyday about stuff like Comcast Tivo box and HD offerings.
So I get to talk to the other side of tracks to find out what is happening. Funny thing is they no almost nothing about the Tivo Box for Comcast. Doh!
I love Directv. I hope they will offer more HD national feeds in the coming months, but I will not go back to regular cable. They may upgrade their product but they still have the worst customer service on the planet.



fastep said:


> I only slam things that deserve it - like OTA HD and slower than snails dvrs (HR10-250).
> 
> I have actually USED almost every dvr (except the Dish ones). I am trying to offer my opinion based on real-life trial and error, not speculation.
> 
> ...


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## jm_sullivan (Dec 10, 2003)

2 more comments:

1. No question that each of the 18 standards for HDTV are brilliantly done individually. The people who made ATSC though picked all 18 as the standard though. That was not so smart. It is summarized in a humorous form here . Essentially they are implementing a side by side upgrade; running the old system until the new system is fully up and running. Then you simply scrap the old system. Black and White to color was a much more impressive upgrade. It was done in place. They took the black and white signal and adjusted it to contain information for color. I'm not old enough to remember, but I don't think they planned on having color when they made the Black and White standard. This way no new sets were needed when they broadcast in color. Old black and white sets still worked, while new color sets got color information from the same signal. That's a really cool upgrade path.

2. Aiming antennas vs. dishes. I'd intended to include antenna selection as part of the difficulty. That didn't make it into my comments. Sorry about that. I still think for the majority of people, hiring an expert antenna installer is the best way to go.


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## jdc0730 (May 4, 2002)

jm_sullivan said:


> 2 more comments:
> 2. Aiming antennas vs. dishes. I'd intended to include antenna selection as part of the difficulty. That didn't make it into my comments. Sorry about that. I still think for the majority of people, hiring an expert antenna installer is the best way to go.


I have installed both dishes and OTA antenna, and for my experience, the dish was much easier. I ultimately hired an antenna installer for my OTA. It all comes down to location, location, location. I am in the heart of downtown Indianapolis. Antenna issues abound. I have 3 antennas in my attic tied together with a variety of filters. It is a much more complicated setup than the dish setup, although others will have the opposite situation. Both will have issues that are unique to your location, there are just too many variables.

Adding to jm's comment, I don't think you can go wrong with an expert installer. I get 85+ signal strength on all my OTA with the expection of 1. As a bonus, I lose OTA much less than DirecTV (which also gets a great signal).

Back on topic, I have DirecTV and my parents (who live 15 miles south of me) have Dish. They can't stand Dish. They lose signal all the time which is probably an installer issue more than anything. That being said, Dish has been out six times in the last year, and the issue is still not resolved.


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## AWAHOO (Oct 21, 2004)

I currently have D* and HDw/Tivo. Since I purchased (not leased) all my equipment, if I switched to Dish, would any of the TiVo's work? I have on HD TiVo and one Standard Tivo.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

jm_sullivan said:


> 2 more comments:
> 
> 1. No question that each of the 18 standards for HDTV are brilliantly done individually. The people who made ATSC though picked all 18 as the standard though. That was not so smart. It is summarized in a humorous form here . Essentially they are implementing a side by side upgrade; running the old system until the new system is fully up and running. Then you simply scrap the old system. Black and White to color was a much more impressive upgrade. It was done in place. They took the black and white signal and adjusted it to contain information for color. I'm not old enough to remember, but I don't think they planned on having color when they made the Black and White standard. This way no new sets were needed when they broadcast in color. Old black and white sets still worked, while new color sets got color information from the same signal. That's a really cool upgrade path.
> 
> 2. Aiming antennas vs. dishes. I'd intended to include antenna selection as part of the difficulty. That didn't make it into my comments. Sorry about that. I still think for the majority of people, hiring an expert antenna installer is the best way to go.


Putting aside the little fact that dishes ARE antennae, I think many would vigorously disagree that NTSC was an "impressive" upgrade, even for 50 years ago. NTSC shoehorned color into an existing system at the expense of luminance bandwidth, the bottom line being that it ended up with less resolution in practice than monochrome had before 1953. The co-opting of the acronym that resulted in the phrase "Never Twice the Same Color" actually had its basis in fact. For the first 15 years of that transition, the "hue" knob rivaled the tuner and volume controls as the most-adjusted control on your garden-variety color TV. Eventually, they got it right. How much of a hue and cry would there be if the DT transition presented similar problems for the first decade and a half and didn't quite work the bugs out until 2012? Folks complain about the growing pains of DT, but they have been minimal by comparison.

IMHO 18 standards have significant advantages over 1 standard, and I've yet to see any real disadvantage to this. They were chosen to give DT a wide suite of applications, and interopability with the computer industry and all other TV formats that exist. And they did that without sacrificing anything. Modern display and decoding technology is not hampered in the least by having to handle multiple formats.

I consider the implementation of these multiple formats brilliant, and it seems the only ones irked by it are those who are too bothered to educate themselves about it enough to embrace them. While sophisticated design does imply a slightly more difficult learning curve, that is always, always, always preferable to dumbing it down so that lazy people won't be bothered by the responsibility. And you could live forever with DT without ever even knowing there were multiple formats, because the equipment makes the viewing experience virtually transparent, so there is very little to complain about. No offense meant, but your link seemed to be a total waste of time, and I know now that I will never have that wasted 5 minutes of my life back. "Humorous" is an interesting characterization. "Idiotic" is more like it.

But we really weren't discussing the formats, we were talking about the RF distribution contribution of the ATSC. Even Sinclair, the most vocal opponent of using 8VSB for transmission has finally relented and agreed that this was the right choice. DT is not an upgrade, it is a complete and total replacement for a long-obsolete system, and a replacement that is backward compatible. And there really is nothing "side-by-side" about sharing the same already-overcrowded RF environment simultaneously for 12 years. Implementing that sucessfully, now THAT was brilliant.


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