# Game of Thrones 6/12/16 No One S06E08



## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Can anyone help me out as to what was going on with Cersei and Qyburn and the rumor he is investigating?

I remember he had obtained some info from Varys' little birds a couple episodes back and she ordered him to expand his inquiries but I can't remember what info he got and what she wanted him to keep looking for.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## danielhart (Apr 27, 2004)

Double post deleted


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I don't think we were ever told exactly what it is, but Internet speculation is that it's about 


Spoiler



wildfire caches in the city.



Considering how wrong speculation was this week (on multiple accounts), who knows if that's correct or not.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

I came here to find out the same thing.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Jesus H. Christ the whole Arya storyline writing is the worst I remember in the entire series.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

She was very mobile and athletic for someone recently stabbed in the gut.


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## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

Waif was a frickin terminator, much more interested in seeing her more rather than Arya.

After all the discussion on how Arya will survive, the answer is "because the writers said so"


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

zordude said:


> Waif was a frickin terminator, much more interested in seeing her more rather than Arya.


One thing I liked about her is that she's genuinely athletic...so many actresses playing athletic characters run (or throw, or punch, or whatever) "like a girl," but she ran like a sprinter.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

ClutchBrake said:


> Jesus H. Christ the whole Arya storyline writing is the worst I remember in the entire series.


It was pretty bad. It is becoming increasingly clear that the writers for the show are not very good when they do not have GRRM to use as a guide.

That is quite disappointing. For such a profitable show, I would have expected them to find better writers.

I was also disappointed to see Jaime take such a strong turn back to evil. It seemed like he had been slowly becoming less evil, but here he showed himself to be just as evil as ever. Not only did he threaten to kill all the Tullys, including a child, for his own selfish reason, he also did not tell Edmure about Brienne and her request for the army to come North. It would have cost Jaime little to tell Edmure that he would allow him to lead his army North with Brienne, but Jaime could not even be bothered to do that.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

The whole Arya plot now seems so pointless.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

So many cool ways Arya could have gotten out of that and it was a horse pucky writers gimmick that got her free


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## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

I thought it was pretty clever that Arya used the training she received from the waif in fighting while blind, to kill the waif. But the way they got from one plot point to other seems like extraordinary lazy writing.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

john4200 said:


> It was pretty bad. It is becoming increasingly clear that the writers for the show are not very good when they do not have GRRM to use as a guide.
> 
> That is quite disappointing. For such a profitable show, I would have expected them to find better writers.


This episode was written by Weiss and Benioff, so it wouldn't really matter how profitable the show is or what other writers they had on staff.

So we're those really the slaver's ships come to attack Meereen? I thought they were Yarra and Theon, and was then confused when they were attacking.

Can we assume that Drogon trashed that fleet, and they just didn't have the CGI budget to show it?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Arya sure heals fast, like she was part Wolverine. I was hoping Arya would tell Lady Crane her true identity. Did Jaqen know she was a Stark.

Dany's grand entrance at the pyramid was kinda corny.

One Faith Militant down, a million to go.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Maybe it was magic healing juice rather than milk of the poppy.

Come to think of it, do we know how much time passed before she hopped out of bed?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

ClutchBrake said:


> Jesus H. Christ the whole Arya storyline writing is the worst I remember in the entire series.


This.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I really hope the Arya story is not a portent of things to come. Are the writers really that lost without GRRM's carefully thought-out writing? 

So now Jaken's "maybe a girl can become someone else" was a throw-away line that meant nothing?

Terrible. Just terrible.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

ClutchBrake said:


> Jesus H. Christ the whole Arya storyline writing is the worst I remember in the entire series.


Very disappointing, her story is one of my favorites in the books.


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> So we're those really the slaver's ships come to attack Meereen? I thought they were Yarra and Theon, and was then confused when they were attacking.


Entirely different kinds of ships. Yarra's fleet are square-rigged, dirty grey and are essentially European pirate ships. This fleet has different shaped sails, bright white colors and are suggestive of Egyptian or Chinese ships.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

danielhart said:


> Can anyone help me out as to what was going on with Cersei and Qyburn and the rumor he is investigating?
> 
> I remember he had obtained some info from Varys' little birds a couple episodes back and she ordered him to expand his inquiries but I can't remember what info he got and what she wanted him to keep looking for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I don't think they ever told us. 2 things come to mind:

1. All the firewater (is that the name?) under the city from the days of the Mad King. But I'm not sure why the little birds would find out about that. And I would think the answer would be "true/not true" instead of "it's what we thought but there much more to it".

2. Some dirty secret about the High Septon that she can use to her advantage.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, and one of the few things I knew about this upcoming season was the "I choose violence" line. How disappointing that it wasn't to start the tables turning against the High Septon; not even for the Mountain to kill 10 or so sparrows; but just to kill one idiot.

I'm disappointed that Jaime didn't free Edmure so HE can take his troops and go help Sansa/Brienne. He would have still taken the Castle and redeemed himself a bit.

Finally, another grand moment for the Mother of Dragons with another "only in the movies" timely return.

I guess you can tell I'm disappointed...this season started out so strong, too. I guess they're now counting on the big Winterfell battle to save the season.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm not ready to say I'm disappointed...one weak episode out of eight, and most of the other seven have been among the best of the series!

And I'm very curious where they're going with Cersei and Sansa...this week they confounded expectations on both fronts (Cersei losing the right to trial by combat, and Sansa not getting _any _help from Riverrun). Really, it's only Arya who let me down, and she's been doing that for a while now. Which is unfortunate, because the character has such promise; they don't really know what to do with her, at least since she left Westeros.

Although Cersei setting the Mountain on that Kingsguard was cool, and obviously gave her great satisfaction, it was yet another example of her being an idiot. The momentary glee she got was at the cost of showing her hand, and encouraging the Sparrow and Tommen to take the Mountain away as her avenue to freedom.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I'd want my money back if I went to a Grey Worm comedy show.

I watched the movie Fast and Furious 7 yesterday morning. The actress who plays Missandei (Nathalie Emmanual) had a prominent role in that. Took me a while to remember where I knew her from though.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I only watched half of this last night, so shouldn't be in this thread. But I couldn't believe the Arya scene! After all the clever theories here and on the internet, she just waits in the dressing room, then the actress is "good at" patching up wounds! She was deeply knifed in the gut 3 or more times and then walked however far through town square. She would have been disemboweled and dead from blood loss. But no, honey, let me just bandage that up for you and give you a little something to help you sleep.

Awful.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I only watched half of this last night, so shouldn't be in this thread. But I couldn't believe the Arya scene! After all the clever theories here and on the internet, she just waits in the dressing room, then the actress is "good at" patching up wounds! She was deeply knifed in the gut 3 or more times and then walked however far through town square. She would have been disemboweled and dead from blood loss. But no, honey, let me just bandage that up for you and give you a little something to help you sleep.
> 
> Awful.


Just wait until later in the episode where Arya's like a parkour acrobat.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Just wait until later in the episode where Arya's like a parkour acrobat.


Even better, jumping out of second and third story windows and not even turning an ankle, let alone break all her bones. It seems that, in that world, oranges really cushion a fall from any height!


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

The stupid thing about the Arya plot is that it would have been so easy for them to have made it far less ridiculous. All they needed to do was have Arya recognize the waif, fight her a bit, then allow herself to get slightly nicked before falling off the bridge. Then they could have skipped over all the actress scenes, and instead cut straight to Arya running through the streets from the waif. The rest could have played out as it did, with Arya leaving a blood trail to lure the waif to where she had her sword.

That would have showed not only that Arya had the wits to plan that whole thing, but also that she could recognize the Faceless, thus making it more plausible that they wouldn't want to waste effort going after her again.

Instead, they showed that Arya was, in fact, unwisely standing out in the streets as an open target, and only by sheer luck managed to survive.

Having Arya severely stabbed served no purpose. In a world where dead people can be brought back to life and healthy main characters can be killed in an instant, it added no suspense to the question of whether or not Arya would survive. Most of the speculation was about how she would survive, not if she would. On top of that, she stood up and faced the waif with the sword in her hand. So it didn't even help her fake that she was almost dead, and then surprise the waif by pulling out the sword, and sticking her with the pointy end.

The only way any of what happened makes any sense is if the actress, waif, and Jaqen were all different faces of the Many-Faced God. Perhaps the guild of assassins was merely a facade, and everything that was done with Arya was to prepare her for something else. In that case, the actress could have used magic to heal Arya enough to do what she did.

It would be some consolation to find out that the whole purpose of Arya training to become no one was so that she could find her true self.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> It would be some consolation to find out that the whole purpose of Arya training to become no one was so that she could find her true self.


The approving nod from the faceless man. This is all I'm hoping to take away from that whole story line.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

john4200 said:


> I was also disappointed to see Jaime take such a strong turn back to evil. It seemed like he had been slowly becoming less evil, but here he showed himself to be just as evil as ever. Not only did he threaten to kill all the Tullys, including a child, for his own selfish reason, he also did not tell Edmure about Brienne and her request for the army to come North. It would have cost Jaime little to tell Edmure that he would allow him to lead his army North with Brienne, but Jaime could not even be bothered to do that.


I might be missing something, but I have zero issue with how Jamie handled Riverrun. He took Riverrun with 1 casualty. And Riverrun is now ostensibly under Lannister control. Why would he want Edmure to head north and help the Starks take Winterfell? If the Starks succeed they suddenly have a lot of power and a large army. That is a huge problem for the Lannisters. Now he has Riverrun AND the Tully army for himself. And the Freys are presumably pretty happy with this outcome. They might seem pathetic but that didn't stop them from causing problems for the Starks. This seems like a huge win for Jamie all around.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> The only way any of what happened makes any sense is if the actress, waif, and Jaqen were all different faces of the Many-Faced God.


In which case, the Many-Faced God committed suicide when the Waif killed the actress...


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Did Jaqen know she was a Stark.


Absolutely.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

The whole "Arya acting out of character" from last episode, wandering around tossing money around like she's rich, still bothers me. None of that paid off, and it still feels really strange.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

zordude said:


> Waif was a frickin terminator, much more interested in seeing her more rather than Arya.


I actually thought she moved like a terminator during the pursuit scenes.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Ereth said:


> The whole "Arya acting out of character" from last episode, wandering around tossing money around like she's rich, still bothers me. None of that paid off, and it still feels really strange.


Not to mention, where did she get the money, then?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

john4200 said:


> I was also disappointed to see Jaime take such a strong turn back to evil. It seemed like he had been slowly becoming less evil, but here he showed himself to be just as evil as ever. Not only did he threaten to kill all the Tullys, including a child, for his own selfish reason, he also did not tell Edmure about Brienne and her request for the army to come North. It would have cost Jaime little to tell Edmure that he would allow him to lead his army North with Brienne, but Jaime could not even be bothered to do that.


I'm holding out hope that he will let them leave. It's possible that the final carrot that caused Edmure to accept the deal was the promise to grant him and the Tully army safe passage out of Riverrun.

The Frey son was right when he told Jaime that they had given away their best bargaining chip when they let Edmure go. Jaime would have done everything he could to ensure that his gamble paid off. He realized that the Blackfish wouldn't take Brienne's offer as long as he had control of Riverrun. So the only way to make that offer happen was to put him in a position where it was that, captivity, or death.

Edmure ordered the Blackfish to be handed over to the Freys, but Jaime also wanted to talk to him. It's possible that he simply wanted to gloat. But it could also be that he wanted to make a deal with the Blackfish to help him escape with his army in exchange for him leaving to help Sansa instead of trying to take back Riverrun. He could then save face by blaming the Blackfish's escape on the Freys, from whom the Blackfish had escaped before.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Anubys said:


> So now Jaken's "maybe a girl can become someone else" was a throw-away line that meant nothing?


I don't think that was ever meant to mean anything other than, "You can be oyster girl, and we'll see how you do with that." In other words, she wasn't ready to shift from one anonymous person to another, as a true Faceless would. But she could take on one specific alternate identity.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In which case, the Many-Faced God committed suicide when the Waif killed the actress...


Well yeah, that does seem kind of masochistic. But that's why I think it only makes sense if all of that was done for Arya's benefit, to prepare her for something.

We do know that Jaqen "committed suicide" to take on the "punishment" for Arya killing Meryn Trant. We also saw in that same scene the waif turn into Jaqen. Was that the waif pretending to be Jaqen or Jaqen pretending to be the waif?

Perhaps it was neither. Maybe the waif and Jaqen truly were nobody as opposed to people who had given up their original identities. And perhaps the actress was also the same.

One knock against this theory is that we did see the waif and Jaqen having a private conversation. But perhaps that was just the Many-Faced God talking to himself/herself/themselves.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

BitbyBlit said:


> Having Arya severely stabbed served no purpose. In a world where dead people can be brought back to life and healthy main characters can be killed in an instant, it added no suspense to the question of whether or not Arya would survive. Most of the speculation was about how she would survive, not if she would. On top of that, she stood up and faced the waif with the sword in her hand. So it didn't even help her fake that she was almost dead, and then surprise the waif by pulling out the sword, and sticking her with the pointy end.


When I was watching it my thought was that Arya's relationship with the actress will be important down the road, so they were highlighting it. Otherwise yes, it was a waste of precious minutes.



Ereth said:


> The whole "Arya acting out of character" from last episode, wandering around tossing money around like she's rich, still bothers me. None of that paid off, and it still feels really strange.


I didn't notice any of that last week when I watched the episode. While it was a bit out of character, I assumed it was just her being really happy to finally be getting the hell out of Braavos and going home. She's was just excited to be putting the whole sordid chapter behind her.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

The whole thing was a horse crap story line. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I am actually looking forward to GRRM's take on arya in the next book. He has to do her better justice than this. I cannot believe that the showrunners, who have written many good episodes before, were so lazy with this writing. 

We get a camera shot of Arya getting gutted...yet she's able to run away.
We see Arya with the actress and she takes milk of the poppy. Convienient for the Waif to only find her AFTER Arya wakes up.
Arya turns into a parkour master just one day from being gutted, yet when she starts to bleed a little, now she's hurt.

Stupid, lazy writing. GoT is better than this.

My only solace is that it appears that Arya led the waif to that room to fight her when she was dragging her bloody hands all over the walls.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> The whole thing was a horse crap story line. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I am actually looking forward to GRRM's take on arya in the next book. He has to do her better justice than this. I cannot believe that the showrunners, who have written many good episodes before, were so lazy with this writing.
> 
> We get a camera shot of Arya getting gutted...yet she's able to run away.
> We see Arya with the actress and she takes milk of the poppy. Convienient for the Waif to only find her AFTER Arya wakes up.
> ...


While I agree that the writing has noticeably changed post book, I don't think they've gotten quite as bad as you think it has. I appreciate the faster pace, for instance. And while the Arya storyline had some goofiness, it had that goofiness under Martin too. I'm hopeful.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Just wait until later in the episode where Arya's like a parkour acrobat.


I just finished the episode over lunch, and you did not exaggerate.

Just awful.

Oh well. Mountain ripping heads off and Clegane cleaving Brothers both up and down, that was entertaining.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

pendragn said:


> When I was watching it my thought was that Arya's relationship with the actress will be important down the road, so they were highlighting it. Otherwise yes, it was a waste of precious minutes.
> 
> I didn't notice any of that last week when I watched the episode. While it was a bit out of character, I assumed it was just her being really happy to finally be getting the hell out of Braavos and going home. She's was just excited to be putting the whole sordid chapter behind her.


So at the end of the episode prior, we see her get Needle and retire to her safe space in preparation.
Then last week she's wandering around in the daylight, tossing multiple bags of money around (where'd she get them?) and then stands idly on a bridge, ignoring her surroundings.

The only way that makes sense is if she was trying to draw her attacker out. But what followed in this week doesn't fit that theory. So it makes that behavior seem stranger in retrospect. I don't understand it.


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## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I guess I'll be the one to go against the grain. I actually liked the way they resolved Arya's story. It was better, imo, than some of the fan theories floating about. I felt it was a nice way to have it come full circle with her killing the waif in the dark. 

Whoever said Jaime was turning back to evil above, I disagree. Jaime's one weakness has always been Cersei, and him doing anything to make her happy is perfectly in character. On the flip side, we saw some of the best of him with letting Brienne talk to the black fish, telling her to keep the sword, and ultimately letting her go back north to a traitor army. He has genuine respect for Brienne, and I almost think they wanted to hug each other last night.


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> Very disappointing, her story is one of my favorites in the books.


+1, sadly.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Ereth said:


> So at the end of the episode prior, we see her get Needle and retire to her safe space in preparation.
> Then last week she's wandering around in the daylight, tossing multiple bags of money around (where'd she get them?) and then stands idly on a bridge, ignoring her surroundings.
> 
> The only way that makes sense is if she was trying to draw her attacker out. But what followed in this week doesn't fit that theory. So it makes that behavior seem stranger in retrospect. I don't understand it.


Totally agree. Arya's actions in S06E07 don't make any sense given that we know she was setting a trap for the Waif in E06 and then led her to the trap in E08. Her actions in E07 put her in too much danger and exposed her to risks that she couldn't control.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

markb said:


> I thought it was pretty clever that Arya used the training she received from the waif in fighting while blind, to kill the waif. But the way they got from one plot point to other seems like extraordinary lazy writing.


... and what the hell?

She actually removed her face (with a knife I guess?) and placed it on the wall?

Why?

Just doesn't seem in character.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Robin said:


> Maybe it was magic healing juice rather than milk of the poppy.
> 
> Come to think of it, do we know how much time passed before she hopped out of bed?


That was my take; that she was healing for many weeks until the Waif found her. Why did I think that? Because she could barely walk and then all-of-a-sudden was running and jumping like she'd never been hurt.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Parkour when injured is not possible, but ripping a person's head off using bare hands is... ok, got it.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Totally agree. Arya's actions in S06E07 don't make any sense given that we know she was setting a trap for the Waif in E06 and then led her to the trap in E08. Her actions in E07 put her in too much danger and exposed her to risks that she couldn't control.


Upon reflection, maybe the plan was to draw the Waif out, lead her to the trap, and then kill her. That would explain Arya's "out of character" movements in the previous episodes. Except the Waif was better than Arya gave her credit for and succeeded in wounding her. So Arya escaped, recuperated (magically, I might add), and managed to lead the Waif to her trap on the second try.



TAsunder said:


> Parkour when injured is not possible, but ripping a person's head off using bare hands is... ok, got it.


Well, we've seen the Mountain crush a skull with his bare hands before. I would think ripping it off is actually easier.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Because she could barely walk and then all-of-a-sudden was running and jumping like she'd never been hurt.


In addition to helping her sleep, the milk of the poppy also takes away pain.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> Upon reflection, maybe the plan was to draw the Waif out, lead her to the trap, and then kill her. That would explain Arya's "out of character" movements in the previous episodes. Except the Waif was better than Arya gave her credit for and succeeded in wounding her. So Arya escaped, recuperated (magically, I might add), and managed to lead the Waif to her trap on the second try.


The problem with that is the scene on the bridge. Arya turned her back on everything, rather than positioning herself to see trouble coming. And then when she was approached, Arya did not seem on guard at all. The Waif totally took Arya by surprise, and it seemed Arya did not even have a knife or anything hidden to help her fight the Waif.

I think the best that could be said is that the showrunners planned things as you said, and then badly screwed up the scene with Arya on the bridge.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Upon reflection, maybe the plan was to draw the Waif out, lead her to the trap, and then kill her. That would explain Arya's "out of character" movements in the previous episodes. Except the Waif was better than Arya gave her credit for and succeeded in wounding her. So Arya escaped, recuperated (magically, I might add), and managed to lead the Waif to her trap on the second try.


I believe this is exactly how the showrunners planned it, but the execution was terrible.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Parkour when injured is not possible, but ripping a person's head off using bare hands is... ok, got it.


It's totally possible for a human reincarnated Franken-person. Uh duh.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

So after all that, and it really was Arya after all.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I do agree it was a little bit lazy on the writers side concerning Arya's storyline. But am glad that she's out of Bravos.

We did not see the Blackfish die. Could it be that the one who opened the gate also helped him get out of there? Since he was proven wrong and felt betrayed by Edmure.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

At the end of last week, I was confused about how the Arya thing would play out. My wife proposed that she'd go seek help from the actress. I disagreed since the belly wound would kill a person (unless the waif somehow managed to miss all the organs that are down there in the multiple times she stabbed Arya AND twisted the knife...) and that the actress wouldn't be able to heal her...

Sigh.

So the whole Blackfish story line was for nothing?!? That was also confusing for me. 4 (or so episodes ago) that castle was in Frey hands. Blackfish shows up and takes it. Sansa hears about it and there might be an army there to provide help to her and John. Now the castle is back with the Frey's, Blackfish is once again out of the story. Did anything actually get accomplished with that story besides Brienne and Jaime meeting up (for no apparent story changing reason). Oh and it was fun to see Pod and Bronn again.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

gossamer88 said:


> I do agree it was a little bit lazy on the writers side concerning Arya's storyline. But am glad that she's out of Bravos.


I must have missed something because I didn't know she left Braavos. I always end up watching this show when it's too late and I end reading this thread Monday morning wondering if I even watched it. I miss way too much.


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## teknikel (Jan 27, 2002)

goblue97 said:


> I must have missed something because I didn't know she left Braavos. I always end up watching this show when it's too late and I end reading this thread Monday morning wondering if I even watched it. I miss way too much.


She has passage booked but we haven't seen her leave.


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## Fahtrim (Apr 12, 2004)

teknikel said:


> She has passage booked but we haven't seen her leave.


She had passage booked, like before she got stabbed and recovered and stuff, she told him it was to be in the morning, there's no way this all happened in a single day.........is there?


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

I just find the writing this season bland. The story lines aren't terrible (though most of them are dead ends), they're just not terribly interesting. I'm finding this the least enjoyable season to date.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

cherry ghost said:


> Very disappointing, her story is one of my favorites in the books.


Myself, I found Aria and the faceless man to be just as boring and stupid in the books--at least so far....


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

This is a good tidbit from the GOT wiki about Jaime's threat not being an actual threat, but him pretending to be a jerk:



> Something which might not come across well on-screen is that Jaime Lannister is acting when he threatens Edmure Tully, playing up his bad reputation as "the Kingslayer" to intimidate him into believing that he actually would launch his baby over the castle walls with a catapult, even though in his inner POV narration Jaime doesn't really want to kill anyone. Other people aren't aware of the drastic change in his personality and self-reassessment of his honor that Jaime has had since losing his sword-hand, which makes it easier for him to pretend to be the kind of ruthless man his father Tywin actually was.


I wasn't sure if that was a real threat or not, now I know.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

gossamer88 said:


> I do agree it was a little bit lazy on the writers side concerning Arya's storyline. But am glad that she's out of Bravos.
> 
> We did not see the Blackfish die. Could it be that the one who opened the gate also helped him get out of there? Since he was proven wrong and felt betrayed by Edmure.


Well, Blackfishie was offered a speedy row boat out of town right in front of everyone watching, and he declined. Seems he wanted to die in his home.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

I suppose one could argue that Arya sort of learned how to fight, but based on the last few episodes it seems that the point of the story line was just to give her something to do until she could join up with Jon and Sansa.

It's disappointing that her story was resolved with such poor writing, since a couple of throwaway lines would have gone a long way to explaining her behavior last episode and her swift recovery in this one.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Well, we've seen the Mountain crush a skull with his bare hands before. I would think ripping it off is actually easier.


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

The only way to redeem the Arya storyline is if she goes in disguised to take out the Boltons, instead of having the Stark Army fighting. Alas, the previews already indicates this isnt the case.

Maybe she can wipe out the Lannisters in Kings Landing. Oh wait, the High Sparrow is handling that.

Meh.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

ADG said:


> I just find the writing this season bland. The story lines aren't terrible (though most of them are dead ends), they're just not terribly interesting. I'm finding this the least enjoyable season to date.


+1. I've found myself in the minority griping about how boring this season has been. I just haven't felt any tension. It's like the writers are moving the pieces around on the board in a slow and predictable way. The Bran storyline, the Dany storyline, the Tyrion storyline, the Aria storyling, all seem like pointless diversions.

We're 8 episodes in, and the only significant thing I can recall about this season are that Jon Snow isn't dead and Hodor held the door.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Plus I guess it won't be a trial by battle with the Mountain and his little bro. I wonder what's the point of bringing Clegane back into the story? Margery must be loving how she's setup Cersei. I do wonder what that little bird rumor is all about, though.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

The little bird rumor is likely about how much wildfire is still hidden under the city. More than they expected. One of Bran's visions was of an underground explosion of wildfire. Probably a lot of it right below where she is going to be on trial.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

nickels said:


> The little bird rumor is likely about how much wildfire is still hidden under the city. More than they expected. One of Bran's visions was of an underground explosion of wildfire. Probably a lot of it right below where she is going to be on trial.


Which is what I posted last night and someone else posted this morning.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

nickels said:


> This is a good tidbit from the GOT wiki about Jaime's threat not being an actual threat, but him pretending to be a jerk:
> 
> I wasn't sure if that was a real threat or not, now I know.


That was my initial reaction as well. Jamie didn't go evil; he didn't need to be willing to catapult a baby over the walls, he just needed to make Edmure believe he was. He ended the siege with minimal bloodshed.

Blackfish was stupid - nothing heroic about going out that way after the castle was surrendered. Newsflash: You're no longer standing, and the war is _still_ not over.

Bronn gets the best lines.

Jamie could still allow the Tully army safe passage. Letting them get involved in the battle of Winterfell would weaken three of the houses opposed to the Lannisters.

The Queen of Thorns was right about Cersei's stupidity. She sure tipped her hand. I do wonder about that rumor, though...

I agree with the prevailing thought here that the Arya storyline was very poorly executed; the most sensibe is she was drawing out the Waif and setting a trap, but that shouldn't have required two episodes and multiple stabbings.

It seems like B&W are good at adapted screenplays, but not original screenplays.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although Cersei setting the Mountain on that Kingsguard was cool, and obviously gave her great satisfaction, it was yet another example of her being an idiot. The momentary glee she got was at the cost of showing her hand, and encouraging the Sparrow and Tommen to take the Mountain away as her avenue to freedom.


 That wasn't a Kingsguard, it was one of the Faith Militant. I don't disagree, really, but I also don't see that she had much choice. Surely you're not suggesting that she should agree to go "visit" the High Septon, in the Red Keep? And to be dragged out kicking and screaming by the Faith Militant would be even worse.

Plus the Faith Militant guy attacked first with a pretty devastating (to non-zombies) blow to the chest.



ClutchBrake said:


> I might be missing something, but I have zero issue with how Jamie handled Riverrun. He took Riverrun with 1 casualty.


 I'd be greatly surprised if the Blackfish went down without taking anyone with him...


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Cersei's going to outlive Tommen because the witch told her so.

So how does that happen? Jaime to the rescue and Tommen dies in the chaos?

If Tommen dies, who's next in line? Margery suddenly claims pregnancy?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I'd be greatly surprised if the Blackfish went down without taking anyone with him...


"It's been years since I was in a proper sword fight. I suspect I'll make a fool of myself."

(or something like that)


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Nobody is disappointed in how they resolved Arya's storyline.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> Nobody is disappointed in how they resolved Arya's storyline.


Did you mean "No one" is disappointed?


----------



## Fixer (Mar 29, 2005)

Like most commenters here, I too thought this ep was meh. Was disappointed that we didn't get see Arya use her "sweet bo staff skills" or the Blackfish "make a fool of himself".


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## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

tlc said:


> Cersei's going to outlive Tommen because the witch told her so.
> 
> So how does that happen? Jaime to the rescue and Tommen dies in the chaos?
> 
> If Tommen dies, who's next in line? Margery suddenly claims pregnancy?


I'm guessing Margaery is plotting to have Tommen killed. Remember, she is in some sort of subterfuge with the Queen of Thrones.

If Tommen dies without an heir (she hadn't been using her conjugal visitation rights with Tommen) - King's Landing and the Westerosi crown is hers and hers alone. She can then dispose of her enemies (the Lannisters) in any way she pleases.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

tlc said:


> If Tommen dies, who's next in line? Margery suddenly claims pregnancy?


Gendry Baratheon?

Jon Targaryen?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jwehman said:


> If Tommen dies without an heir (she hadn't been using her conjugal visitation rights with Tommen) - King's Landing and the Westerosi crown is hers and hers alone. She can then dispose of her enemies (the Lannisters) in any way she pleases.


What makes you think that? I don't think we've ever seen any evidence that the king's wife is in the line of succession...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jwehman said:


> I'm guessing Margaery is plotting to have Tommen killed. Remember, she is in some sort of subterfuge with the Queen of Thrones.
> 
> If Tommen dies without an heir (she hadn't been using her conjugal visitation rights with Tommen) - King's Landing and the Westerosi crown is hers and hers alone. She can then dispose of her enemies (the Lannisters) in any way she pleases.


Where do you get that idea? the right of succession has never included the Queen so far in that world. I think it's been made abundantly clear that women are a small step up from cattle as they get their power only from who they marry and whose male children they give birth to.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

ct1 said:


> Gendry Baratheon?
> 
> Jon Targaryen?


Daenerys?

I doubt Gendry is going by "Baratheon" 

Although Tommen may have said that Trials by Combat are out, that doesn't necessarily stop Cercei and the Mountain from having one. The only difference is that the "champion" for the other side would have more than two arms and two legs. A lot more.

But I agree, wildfire appears destined to be in the budget. But I do hope that, before it comes to that, Cercei uncovers some inconvenient truths in the the High Sparrow's past. It's not just the Sparrow and his Faith Militants -- the entire population of King's Landing is against Cercei, so she needs more than just might to win this one.

P.S. Since when does the wife of the king take over ruling the land if the King dies without an heir?


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

Did I read too much into it, or did it look like Jaquen slightly smiled when Arya said she was Arya Stark of Winterfell?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Fixer said:


> Was disappointed that we didn't get see Arya use her "sweet bo staff skills" or the Blackfish "make a fool of himself".


Or Drogon take out the fleet.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

javabird said:


> Did I read too much into it, or did it look like Jaquen slightly smiled when Arya said she was Arya Stark of Winterfell?


Yeah, I thought that too. As much as he shows any emotion, at least.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

wprager said:


> P.S. Since when does the wife of the king take over ruling the land if the King dies without an heir?


The only way that could possibly happen is if she were appointed regent. But who on Earth would appoint Margaery regent? And why? Sure, Cersei got the job...but that was on behalf of her minor son. Margaery has no such "in," either in terms of somebody to be regent for or somebody to appoint her.


ClutchBrake said:


> Yeah, I thought that too. As much as he shows any emotion, at least.


Yeah, by his standards that was bursting out into a Busby Berekley musical number, complete with Vegas lighting, chorus girls, a full orchestra, and synchronized swimmers in an oversized pool.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The only way that could possibly happen is if she were appointed regent. But who on Earth would appoint Margaery regent? And why? Sure, Cersei got the job...but that was on behalf of her minor son. Margaery has no such "in," either in terms of somebody to be regent for or somebody to appoint her.


Unless she is or claims to be pregnant.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Although I suspect in that case she wouldn't be given the keys to the kingdom; she'd be locked away in a nice but very secure room until she completed the spawning process.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

tlc said:


> Not to mention, where did she get the money, then?


Oysters, clams and cockles.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

What's with the penis/butthole focus within the BWB?
First the "practical joke", then the horse in EVERY SINGLE take around the camp, then Sandor.

Where's that South Park clip?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

ClutchBrake said:


> Yeah, I thought that too. As much as he shows any emotion, at least.


Almost like this was his plan all along...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although I suspect in that case she wouldn't be given the keys to the kingdom; she'd be locked away in a nice but very secure room until she completed the spawning process.


...and accidentally stabs herself in the back 12 or 13 times before said spawning process is ever completed!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> ...and accidentally stabs herself in the back 12 or 13 times before said spawning process is ever completed!


Not necessarily...in the absence of a good heir (which seems to be the case), an infant would be ideal. That would give the Powers That Be 18 years or so of absolute control, and if the spawn is female it would allow them to marry her off to the person of their choice.

So the accident wouldn't happen until AFTER the spawning, if it were determined that she would be more of a liability than an asset in maintaining said control.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> Unless she is or claims to be pregnant.


Maybe Loras kept a specimen from Renly and they used that to impregnate Margaery. He stored it at the wall to keep it frozen this whole time. Of course this all took place off camera so we just have to take their word for it.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

If Tommen dies who exactly would become king? All the people who could possibly have a valid claim are all dead.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> If Tommen dies who exactly would become king? All the people who could possibly have a valid claim are all dead.


No, just all the people with obvious, close claims. But the whole Westerosian nobility is deeply inbred, so probably just about everybody is somewhere in line...the problem is, once you get out of the "Baratheon" family (in quotes because we know most of them weren't actually Baratheons), you're probably far enough from the direct line that relative claims become very...arguable. Which means probably a whole lot of civil war with a whole lot of sides.

(By the way, I was intrigued that when Jaime was playing his games with Edmure at Riverrun, one of the cards he played was essentially confirming the rumors about him and Cersei.)


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

So when Jaime tells Edmure that a mother would do anything for their baby. Including burning cities to ash... wonder if that's foreshadowing of what will happen at Kings Landing?

Other thoughts:

- Does the High Sparrow enjoy little birds? Could that be his undoing?
- Wondering what Varys's mission is.

Also, a coincidental casting?:


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I am quite certain that the Lannisters would play the "he was the son of a Baratheon and a Lannister and so a Lannister should now be King" card. 

The War of the Roses lasted over 30 years, though, and the eventual winner was the result of battle. I would expect that this wouldn't be much different. Danaerys is going to press her claim, after all.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

According to some googling the Lannisters bloodline line via Tywin are likely next in line thanks to a distant relation with the Baratheons, so that would mean Jamie, unless he is disallowed by virtue of being a member of the King's Guard.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> According to some googling the Lannisters bloodline line via Tywin are likely next in line thanks to a distant relation with the Baratheons, so that would mean Jamie, unless he is disallowed by virtue of being a member of the King's Guard.


He is no longer a member of the King's Guard.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> According to some googling the Lannisters bloodline line via Tywin are likely next in line thanks to a distant relation with the Baratheons, so that would mean Jamie, unless he is disallowed by virtue of being a member of the King's Guard.


Although didn't Tommen kick him out of the Kingsguard? So would that make him eligible again?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Although didn't Tommen kick him out of the Kingsguard? So would that make him eligible again?


Yes. Tywin's deal with Jaime (to save Tyrion) was to leave the King's Guard which would allow Jaime to get married, make an heir, be the Lord of Casterly Rock (once Tywin dies), and be the head of the Lannister army.

As soon as he was fired from the King's Guard, he assumed control of the army and went to Riverrun. So it stands to reason that all the other rights are given back to him.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the scene with Tyrion and Dany's assistants yet. All I can think of was, could someone give me those five minutes back? What was the point of that? I know there is a lot of love for Tyrion, but has he been pretty much wasted this season? Did Peter Dinkledge ask for more money or something because he's hardly been used. Last thing I needed to hear was those two trying to drink and tell jokes with Tyrion.

I agree, a meh episode. Did anyone else think of Indiana Jones when Arya was running through the streets? I really think there's going to be more about Arya's training with the Faceless Man which will be used in a future plotpoint.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I thought of Terminator when the waif was running.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Arya jumped off of so many high objects, I expected to have webs shoot out of her wrists like Spiderman.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> According to some googling the Lannisters bloodline line via Tywin are likely next in line thanks to a distant relation with the Baratheons, so that would mean Jamie...


And if he's dead, Tyrion! (Until Daenerys kills him.)


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Has anything been said on the show to support the hidden Wildfire idea? Or is it just internet theory, like all the recent Arya stuff?


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

It's one of those Internet theories that spread like... wait for it... wildfire.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

tlc said:


> Has anything been said on the show to support the hidden Wildfire idea? Or is it just internet theory, like all the recent Arya stuff?


One of Bran's visions of green fire in what seemed to be the Red Keep.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> One of Bran's visions of green fire in what seemed to be the Red Keep.


There was also Dany's vision/dream sequence of seeing the Red Keep in ashes from season 2 I believe.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

BrettStah said:


> I thought of Terminator when the waif was running.


I was thinking of every horror/slasher movie where the killer can walk and still catch everyone.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Robin said:


> Almost like this was his plan all along...


I think his "plan" was for Arya to find her way, whether that was among the faceless or as Arya Stark. I think he smiled because he felt she was finally being true to herself.

Because of that, I forgive any of the odd physical encounter with the Waif. I don't really care about fight scenes or the like very often but the story of Arya finding her way was the important aspect. And, no, I don't think her story was a waste any more than Bruce Wayne learning from monks is a waste. It is forming her character. It is her travels.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

This is a photo of the wildfire from Bran's vision:









Since it hasn't happened yet in the show, it is much better than the Arya predictions. There has also been a lot of foreshadowing that it is going to happen.

Add that with what was just mentioned about Daenerys vision:









These things all point to what is coming very soon instead of an epic trial by combat.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

What was in the small bottle the actress was retrieving from above the painting just before she was killed? Perhaps whatever is in the bottle explains how Arya appeared to regain her strength so quickly. Or was it just milk of the poppy and if so why was it hidden?

Regarding the Waif's face in the hall of many faces, I think it was her entire head. I doubt Arya would go to the trouble of removing just the face.

Cersei better be careful. When you play with wildfire you might get burned or you might burn your own son.

I was ok with the episode overall. Still better than most other shows just not up to the high standard set by the GoT series.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

javabird said:


> Did I read too much into it, or did it look like Jaquen slightly smiled when Arya said she was Arya Stark of Winterfell?


It was practically a grin.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

markbox said:


> What was in the small bottle the actress was retrieving from above the painting just before she was killed? Perhaps whatever is in the bottle explains how Arya appeared to regain her strength so quickly. Or was it just milk of the poppy and if so why was it hidden?


There's an Internet theory that Arya was actually there for quite a while and that the initial bottle of milk of the poppy ran out which is why the actress had to retrieve more. It would also explain why Arya's wounds healed so "quickly".


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

There's no information from the show that indicates she was only there one night, and given her ninja like sprinting and acrobatics, it's more likely than not that she was there for quite a few days.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> "It's been years since I was in a proper sword fight. I suspect I'll make a fool of myself."
> 
> (or something like that)


 Yeah, but I assumed that was just false modesty. He was supposedly one of the most formidable fighters around when younger, and he may have lost a step but is more cunning now. Anyway, it doesn't matter.



jwehman said:


> I'm guessing Margaery is plotting to have Tommen killed. Remember, she is in some sort of subterfuge with the Queen of Thrones.


 ITYM Queen of _Thorns_.



BrettStah said:


> There's no information from the show that indicates she was only there one night, and given her ninja like sprinting and acrobatics, it's more likely than not that she was there for quite a few days.


 Well, she was definitely in different clothes. You would imagine that the actress's house would be the first place The Waif would look. But on the other hand, The Waif thought Arya was dead (in the canal) so maybe wasn't looking. I wonder if the Many-Faced God ratted Arya out, and how long it took them to realize she wasn't dead.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Anubys said:


> Where do you get that idea? the right of succession has never included the Queen so far in that world. I think it's been made abundantly clear that women are a small step up from cattle as they get their power only from who they marry and whose male children they give birth to.


Or who they "birth" in a funeral pyre.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Another way the Wildfire thing could go is to lure the Knight King to King's Landing and kill them all with it.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Another way the Wildfire thing could go is to lure the Knight King to King's Landing and kill them all with it.


I don't know...by the time the Night King got to King's Landing, the vast majority of Westeros would be wall-to-wall zombies...that would be a mighty Pyrrhic victory!


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## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know...by the time the Night King got to King's Landing, the vast majority of Westeros would be wall-to-wall zombies...that would be a mighty Pyrrhic victory!


Most interesting use of he wildfire stash would be for Cersei to use it to kill the High Sparrow before her trial, by only setting off a portion of it. However she would have miscalculated like she always does killing Tommen and setting off a good portion of it, if not all, of it, leveling most of King's Landing. Since Jamie sacrificed everything to stop the Mad King from doing this and most of his actions (Ned, Bran, Myrcella, the war, and Riverrun) a have been because of his love for Cersei it would be the ultimate ironic twist for the Lannisters.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

I 100% believe she accidentally kills Tommen with it in the process. I am ready with my Nelson laugh when it happens. HAHA!


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know...by the time the Night King got to King's Landing, the vast majority of Westeros would be wall-to-wall zombies...that would be a mighty Pyrrhic victory!


But would they all remain "alive" once the Night King is dead?

I'm pretty sure what people are saying is what will come about; just as Tywin said, Cersei is not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. I was just trying to think of some wild/alternate way it could go.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Wildfyre won't kill the Night King. It will kill the Wights but not White Walkers (the Night King is the head WW). WW can only be killed by Dragonglass or Valerian Steel (that we know of).


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> Wildfyre won't kill the Night King. It will kill the Wights but not White Walkers (the Night King is the head WW). WW can only be killed by Dragonglass or Valerian Steel (that we know of).


I would suspect they can also be killed by fire from dragons.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I would suspect they can also be killed by fire from dragons.


I also suspect we will find that out for certain before this show is over.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't know...by the time the Night King got to King's Landing, the vast majority of Westeros would be wall-to-wall zombies...that would be a mighty Pyrrhic victory!


It would also be a pyrotechnic victory.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

What if the dragons gargle with wildfire? That should kill anything, right?


----------



## Kablemodem (May 26, 2001)

Just baddragonbreath.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Wildfyre won't kill the Night King. It will kill the Wights but not White Walkers (the Night King is the head WW). WW can only be killed by Dragonglass or Valerian Steel (that we know of).


Did they say that one the show? I don't recall that at all.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> Wildfyre won't kill the Night King. It will kill the Wights but not White Walkers (the Night King is the head WW). WW can only be killed by Dragonglass or Valerian Steel (that we know of).


I suspect the fire we recently saw extinguish as the Night King walk through was because it was so cold. I think Wildfyre, and dragons fire is much more hotter, and will burn him like a cripsy critter. But who knows.


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> The whole thing was a horse crap story line. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I am actually looking forward to GRRM's take on arya in the next book. He has to do her better justice than this. I cannot believe that the showrunners, who have written many good episodes before, were so lazy with this writing.
> 
> We get a camera shot of Arya getting gutted...yet she's able to run away.
> We see Arya with the actress and she takes milk of the poppy. Convienient for the Waif to only find her AFTER Arya wakes up.
> ...


Syrio had Arya chasing cats through Kings Landing as part of her Water Dancer training.

The final scene was a little sloppy, but I watched the chase closely. I think the showrunners were having a bit of fun with the "Waif is Arya" rumor (maybe they even planted it). In the chase scene, the Waif didn't touch anyone until almost the end, after Arya jumped and landed on the oranges.



javabird said:


> Did I read too much into it, or did it look like Jaquen slightly smiled when Arya said she was Arya Stark of Winterfell?


He definitely smiled at her. I'm still curious what he was doing in a dungeon in Kings Landing when Eddard was beheaded. Perhaps this path was determined long before Arya went to Braavos.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Did they say that one the show? I don't recall that at all.


Jon killed a WW in the Hardhome ep with his Valyrian steel sword (Longclaw - that he got from Jeor Mormont).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Jon killed a WW in the Hardhome ep with his Valyrian steel sword (Longclaw - that he got from Jeor Mormont).


I wasn't clear...I was asking about the assertion that wildfire can't kill the Night King or the White Walkers.

So far, we KNOW valyrian steel and dragon glass kills WW (we know nothing about what kills the Knight King).

We assume dragon fire kills them. The post I commented on asserted that wildfire will NOT kill them. So I was asking how she knew that or if it's an assumption (like dragon fire).


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I wasn't clear...I was asking about the assertion that wildfire can't kill the Night King or the White Walkers.
> 
> So far, we KNOW valyrian steel and dragon glass kills WW (we know nothing about what kills the Knight King).
> 
> We assume dragon fire kills them. The post I commented on asserted that wildfire will NOT kill them. So I was asking how she knew that or if it's an assumption (like dragon fire).


It's an assumption. We know Dragon Glass can kill them and Dragon Glass comes from Dragon Fire. The Dragon Glass is created by the dragons blowing fire on sand (like the creation of Fulgarite from lightening) so it is reasonable that Dragon Fire has the potential to kill them.

Wildfire is a chemical cocktail that was created by the Maesters in Kings Landing. I doubt anyone has ever tried it on a WW since it is very difficult to transport and KL is very far from The Wall, let alone the land where the WW's roam. But, I find it doubtful there will be any relationship there. I would bet that the Dragons have a hand (or paw) in creating Valerian steel somehow as well and what we will find is that the only thing that can truly stop the WW's are dragons and things created from dragons. The return of the WW's is why the Dragons returned. They are meant to face each other.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Anubys said:


> I wasn't clear...I was asking about the assertion that wildfire can't kill the Night King or the White Walkers.
> 
> So far, we KNOW valyrian steel and dragon glass kills WW (we know nothing about what kills the Knight King).
> 
> We assume dragon fire kills them. The post I commented on asserted that wildfire will NOT kill them. So I was asking how she knew that or if it's an assumption (like dragon fire).


Got it. Yeah, I wasn't sure what you were referring to, so I thought maybe it was Valyrian steel.

I'm with most people in that I assume that dragon fire will kill the WW. Both dragonglass and Valyrian steel arguably descend from dragon fire, so there's no reason to not believe that dragon fire will kill WW as well.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I don't think this is a spoiler. In the books, they describe Valyrian steel also involving magic in the forging process, and knowledge of that magic has been lost for a long, long time. It does kind of make me wonder about Brienne's sword "Oathkeeper" and Joffrey's Tommen's sword "Widow's Wail" and their effectiveness against a WW.


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## markbox (May 3, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> It's an assumption. We know Dragon Glass can kill them and Dragon Glass comes from Dragon Fire. The Dragon Glass is created by the dragons blowing fire on sand (like the creation of Fulgarite from lightening) so it is reasonable that Dragon Fire has the potential to kill them.
> 
> Wildfire is a chemical cocktail that was created by the Maesters in Kings Landing. I doubt anyone has ever tried it on a WW since it is very difficult to transport and KL is very far from The Wall, let alone the land where the WW's roam. But, I find it doubtful there will be any relationship there. I would bet that the Dragons have a hand (or paw) in creating Valerian steel somehow as well and what we will find is that the only thing that can truly stop the WW's are dragons and things created from dragons. The return of the WW's is why the Dragons returned. They are meant to face each other.


Agreed.

I suspect that the Maesters in Kings Landing derived wildfire from the chemical process used by Dragons to breath fire. If so, and if the forging of Valerian steel involves the use of dragon fire, then perhaps that leads to the possible conclusion that not only does Valerian steel and dragon glass kill WWs so does dragon fire and wildfire.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

BeanMeScot said:


> The Dragon Glass is created by the dragons blowing fire on sand


Where'd you get that from?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

robojerk said:


> I don't think this is a spoiler. In the books, they describe Valyrian steel also involving magic in the forging process, and knowledge of that magic has been lost for a long, long time. It does kind of make me wonder about Brienne's sword "Oathkeeper" and Joffrey's Tommen's sword "Widow's Wail" and their effectiveness against a WW.


The magic was mentioned on the show. The way I understand it, it's to make the actual steel, not forging it into a sword or dagger that needs the magic. So once you have the actual steel, you can melt it and shape it as you wish.



cherry ghost said:


> Where'd you get that from?


I believe Stannis mentioned it.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Anubys said:


> I believe Stannis mentioned it.


I don't remember him saying that, but if he did it was made up just for the show.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

What I remember Stanis talking about was that there was a lot of dragon glass in the vicinity of his castle, Dragonstone.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Dragonglass is obsidian. It's made from volcanos. In the books/tv show it, of course, has magical properties that it does not have in real life, but most of its features are actually true here too (there are experiments in making scalpels with it, for instance, because it is far sharper than steel, if more fragile).

There are, of course, stories that it's made by dragons, but the Maesters all say it comes from "the fires of the earth". Having not seen any dragons in hundreds of years, it may be that they can make it as well, but no Maester has recorded such a thing.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

cherry ghost said:


> I don't remember him saying that, but if he did it was made up just for the show.


 You are talking about dragons...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BeanMeScot said:


> You are talking about dragons...


I think they mean it wasn't in the books so it was something said just on the show?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Ereth said:


> Dragonglass is obsidian. It's made from volcanos. In the books/tv show it, of course, has magical properties that it does not have in real life, but most of its features are actually true here too (there are experiments in making scalpels with it, for instance, because it is far sharper than steel, if more fragile).
> 
> There are, of course, stories that it's made by dragons, but the Maesters all say it comes from "the fires of the earth". Having not seen any dragons in hundreds of years, it may be that they can make it as well, but no Maester has recorded such a thing.


It makes sense to me that Dragons can make dragon glass. After all in the real world, we get Fulgurite from lightening and sand. Why not another type of glass from the heat of a dragon's fire plus sand? It could easily be that where it came from has been forgotten like the White Walker's themselves. To me, it fits in easily with the posit that Dragons and Dragon made items stop White Walkers and that's how the WWs will be defeated.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> i think they mean it wasn't in the books so it was something said just on the show? :d


:d


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## javabird (Oct 13, 2006)

javabird said:


> Did I read too much into it, or did it look like Jaquen slightly smiled when Arya said she was Arya Stark of Winterfell?





JoeyJoJo said:


> He definitely smiled at her. I'm still curious what he was doing in a dungeon in Kings Landing when Eddard was beheaded. Perhaps this path was determined long before Arya went to Braavos.


Yes, good point. When he met Arya, she was hiding her identity, masquerading as a boy, so this path pushed her to openly declare her name and identity.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> It makes sense to me that Dragons can make dragon glass. After all in the real world, we get Fulgurite from lightening and sand. Why not another type of glass from the heat of a dragon's fire plus sand? It could easily be that where it came from has been forgotten like the White Walker's themselves. To me, it fits in easily with the posit that Dragons and Dragon made items stop White Walkers and that's how the WWs will be defeated.


While I don't disagree with any of that, I thought it important to point out that we know of at least one way to make dragonglass that does not require dragons. This, to my mind at least, is important, as it doesn't put an upper bound on how much dragonglass there might be in the world. Tons of it are made by volcanos and thus we aren't limited to just places where dragons and sand collide.

However, in the interest of accuracy, obsidian is a particular type of lava that has cooled rapidly without crystal growth. It doesn't require sand (or any other external component) at all. However, it is made of silicon dioxide and (non-tropical) sand provides plenty of that, so a supposition that really really hot dragon fire could turn sand into it is not unrealistic at all. Fortunately, most of Westeros does not appear to be in any way tropical (though Dorne might be).


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I think it's telling that the only raw dragon glass (ie, hasn't been formed by humans into weapons) we know about is at Dragonstone. This was home for the Targarayns and their dragons from the time of their conquest of Westeros until their overthrow.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think the dragons made the glass, but I don't think there was any sand involved. Dragonstone is a pile of rocks in the ocean, not a sandy beach resort.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I obviously don't know exactly how dragon glass is made. I'm just comparing it to Fulgarite.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shouldn't Harrenhall be lousy with dragon glass if it can be made by dragons breathing fire on rocks?


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> The magic was mentioned on the show. The way I understand it, it's to make the actual steel, not forging it into a sword or dagger that needs the magic. So once you have the actual steel, you can melt it and shape it as you wish.


Right, that is how I understood it. The magic is incorporated in the smelting process, not in the forging process. Smelting involves heat and chemical changes. Forging involves heat but minimal chemical changes (forging is forming, shaping the metal).

So, perhaps the raw ore used in the smelting process incorporated magic, or maybe the magic was incorporated during the smelting of the raw ore. It would be funny if they had a smelting furnace that was powered by having dragons breathe fire on it.


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Arya has one step remaining in her plan:








--Carlos V.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Unbeliever said:


> Arya has one step remaining in her plan:


She is in the unique position to be both nobody and somebody at the same time. However, I think she would prefer to call herself "Catwoman".


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