# TiVo Box Rings Up Fat Phone Bills



## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

how many minutes does a tivo need per day anyway? I'm very curious. Was it dialing the south pole?

http://cbs5.com/consumer/local_story_102212708.html

Last year, Neil Gray went on vacation to his family cabin in Michigan, just like he always does. But when he got home to San Francisco, something unusual happened. He started getting phone bills from that empty cabin.

"The phone bill was over $800 and no one had been in the cottage since September for two months."

The next bill was even bigger.

"The total for the month was one thousand and three dollars and 65 cents."

Turns out, it was his TiVo box making those phone calls, which came as a big surprise to Neil, because he'd cancelled his TiVo subscription. And when Neil called TiVo for an explanation, he says they just pointed to a clause in their service agreement that says the company is not responsible for any calls.

"It didn't seem to matter to them. It was extremely frustrating."

"This seems like a horrible mistake on TiVo's part," says Joe Ridout of Consumer Action. "TiVo's customers should be able to trust that if they leave their machine alone, it's not going to suddenly start chattering away in the middle of the night and run up thousands of dollars in charges."

TiVo declined an on-camera interview, but a spokesman says cases like Neil's are "rare". And after CBS 5 called, TiVo promised to take care of the phone bill.

So what can TiVo subscriber's do to protect themselves? We found these tips on online chat boards like tivocommunity.com. If you get satellite TV, you only need the phone line for initial activation. After that, you can unplug your TiVo box and it should work fine. And if you have cable, there are ways to hook your box up to a DSL line, so you don't get stuck with any unexpected phone charges.

Neil hopes others will learn from his experience.

"If you cancel your TiVo service, unplug it from the phone jack.


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## justapixel (Sep 27, 2001)

newsposter said:


> "TiVo's customers should be able to trust that if they leave their machine alone, it's not going to suddenly start chattering away in the middle of the night and run up thousands of dollars in charges."


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## Chapper1 (Jan 2, 2004)

nice plug for the community!


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## SparkleMotion (Feb 2, 2004)

newsposter said:


> "If you cancel your TiVo service, unplug it from the phone jack.


That's about the biggest "DUUUUUHHHHH" statement I've read in a while. For ANY automated phone-using device! (Including satellite receivers, etc.)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

newsposter said:


> "If you cancel your TiVo service, unplug it from the phone jack.


bet he was trying to save some bucks in the old way of cancelling service for the months he would not be at the cabin and then leaving the phone line plugged in so he could go online and reactivate the account a few weeks before going back next year.

A classic example of the reason for the new stay active for one year or pay a penalty, even on old boxes that have been subscribed before.


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## choccy (Jan 1, 2001)

Huh.. unactivated tivos only dial up to check to see if they've been re-activated, and to set their clock. A 1 minute call max. Plus, they only check every few days, it's not even daily. There's no program guide data transfer during this call.

I don't believe a single tivo on a regular phone line, even calling internationally, can run up a $800/month bill. Something else is going on here.


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## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Honey, the darn TiVo's been calling 'Live Links' again!!!


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

choccy said:


> Huh.. unactivated tivos only dial up to check to see if they've been re-activated, and to set their clock. A 1 minute call max. Plus, they only check every few days, it's not even daily. There's no program guide data transfer during this call.
> 
> *I don't believe a single tivo on a regular phone line, even calling internationally, can run up a $800/month bill. Something else is going on here.*


Absolutely. This is not a normal occurance.

Like the guy in Malaysia who got a $218 TRILLION phone bill for his* dead father's cellphone*, it is not possible to get these figures under normal circumstances.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

well presumably tivo would only pay if it has his full bill to ensure he wasn't dialing 1-900-talktome....then again, maybe good publicity to help a fellow out.

i guess this proves that when you cancel tivo...the box really isn't dead


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## choccy (Jan 1, 2001)

newsposter said:


> i guess this proves that when you cancel tivo...the box really isn't dead


This proves nothing we didn't already know about TiVo boxes with no service.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

choccy said:


> This proves nothing we didn't already know about TiVo boxes with no service.


'we' eh? But that doesn't include me. I never even thought about it, much less knew it


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I'm sure living in BFE he had it calling a long distance number.

I don't think this is Tivo's fault for him being a moron.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I'm sure living in BFE he had it calling a long distance number.

I don't think this is Tivo's fault for him being a moron.


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## MikeMar (Jan 7, 2005)

Guindalf said:


> Absolutely. This is not a normal occurance.
> 
> Like the guy in Malaysia who got a $218 TRILLION phone bill for his* dead father's cellphone*, it is not possible to get these figures under normal circumstances.


I want to hear about this story


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

choccy said:


> Huh.. unactivated tivos only dial up to check to see if they've been re-activated, and to set their clock. A 1 minute call max. Plus, they only check every few days, it's not even daily. There's no program guide data transfer during this call.
> 
> I don't believe a single tivo on a regular phone line, even calling internationally, can run up a $800/month bill. Something else is going on here.


It's not quite impossible. Especially with some of the series 1 TiVos there could occasionally be a glitch where the TiVo would sit there on the line without hanging up.

Combine this with the possibility that that cabin was on a pay / minute phone plan rather than an unlimited local plan (quite possible if they don't stay their year round and don't use the phone much while their. Why pay for unlimited).

That could be a spendy phone bill. Worst case, assume that the TiVo's modem hangs and manages to hold open a real connection for an entire 31 day month. That's 44640 minutes, and at about $0.017 / min would run up an $800 bill.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

newsposter said:


> i guess this proves that when you cancel tivo...the box really isn't dead


If you wanted it dead you should have pulled the plug.

I'm confused why you'd leave a deactivated TiVo sitting there pulling down 26 (series 2) to 45 (series 1) watts constantly for months. That's just wasted power, and power isn't free.

If he'd unplugged the TiVo he'd have saved electricity, money, and it wouldn't have been calling home.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

maybe he wanted updates? suggestions?


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## YamahaRick (Oct 9, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> I'm sure living in BFE he had it calling a long distance number.
> 
> I don't think this is Tivo's fault for him being a moron.


You can say THAT again!


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## choccy (Jan 1, 2001)

newsposter said:


> maybe he wanted updates? suggestions?


But you don't get those with the service cancelled.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

No comments page there so I emailed the reporter asking why if he cancelled service, would he leave it plugged in and powered on?


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## DanaMac223 (May 22, 2005)

Our first box rang up a 300.00 phone bill one month. Talk about sticker shock!! Fortunately the phone company adjusted it for us. At the time we had no local Tivo number and the closest was in a town 100 miles west of us. From that point on we made sure that we had phone service that covered local long distance.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> I want to hear about this story


Have at it.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

Yet another reason to network your TiVo. 

I can't understand why anyone with broadband would have a TiVo dialing up on a POTS line, except if it was a DirecTiVo.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Sounds to me like it's not a problem with TiVo but an indication that this guy needs a new telephone provider/plan.


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## TiVo Mel (Jun 21, 2005)

devdogaz said:


> Sounds to me like it's not a problem with TiVo but an indication that this guy needs a new telephone provider/plan.


I totally agree. What kinds of long distance plans are some of you using? $1,000 a month for long distance charges via a Tivo box? I don't believe it. First of all, the longest I've ever seen a Tivo box take to dial-out and download data is 30 minutes. Assuming that the box does this every day for a month (it won't, many days it should only take 5-10 minutes) it would be connected for a total of 900 minutes (30 minutes a day for 30 days). For a $1,000 phone bill, that would be $1.11 per minute! I wonder if the reporter asked for documentation of the alleged phone bills?

Don't be mad at Tivo; be made at your long distance carrier.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Jonathan_S said:


> If you wanted it dead you should have pulled the plug.
> 
> I'm confused why you'd leave a deactivated TiVo sitting there pulling down 26 (series 2) to 45 (series 1) watts constantly for months. That's just wasted power, and power isn't free.
> 
> If he'd unplugged the TiVo he'd have saved electricity, money, and it wouldn't have been calling home.


see my post above


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> bet he was trying to save some bucks in the old way of cancelling service for the months he would not be at the cabin and then leaving the phone line plugged in so he could go online and reactivate the account a few weeks before going back next year.
> 
> A classic example of the reason for the new stay active for one year or pay a penalty, even on old boxes that have been subscribed before.


So you pay for the power for the hard drive to run for a full year, and take the risk that the HD will be dead the next time you arrive, just to save you plugging it in and making a daily call when you do arrive back at the cabin next year?


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

I guess his was a stand-alone TiVo? My DirecTiVos dial a ridiculous number of times each day. I think it started when I moved to Vonage and had them call the 212 area coded to get them to work, but I'm not sure.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Todd said:


> I guess his was a stand-alone TiVo? My DirecTiVos dial a ridiculous number of times each day. I think it started when I moved to Vonage and had them call the 212 area coded to get them to work, but I'm not sure.


Why do you have your D*TiVos hooked up to a phone line at all? The guide data should come in over the satellite.


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## Neenahboy (Apr 8, 2004)

devdogaz said:


> Why do you have your D*TiVos hooked up to a phone line at all? The guide data should come in over the satellite.


Isn't it required for sports subs?


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

My series 1 SAT-T60 makes about 20 calls a day, and if I didn't have the Vonage Unlimited plan I might care. If a person has a local plan that is metered I could see their bill being some ridiculous amount.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Not having a D*TiVo, why would you need it to be connected to a phone line at all (other than sports subscriptions of PPV) and does the call go to TiVo or does it go to DirecTV? I thought TiVo didn't provide the data for these boxes so what is the phone call for?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

This seems like one of those "consumer action" cases, where the "consumer activist" badgers a company until they cave, even know the company didn't do anything wrong.

It'd be bad press if some uniformed reporter said that Tivo refused to do anything about it.

-smak-


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## sushikitten (Jan 28, 2005)

So he didn't check into it after the first $800 bill? He let it get to two months and $1000?


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## Todd (Oct 7, 1999)

Of course if he wasn't going to be there for that long, why didn't he unplug the thing? I guess he forgot.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> Not having a D*TiVo, why would you need it to be connected to a phone line at all (other than sports subscriptions of PPV) and does the call go to TiVo or does it go to DirecTV? I thought TiVo didn't provide the data for these boxes so what is the phone call for?


It gets software upgrades from TiVo via the phone/network.

It makes a daily call to check for updates (kinda dumb if you ask me, they could just do it via satellite) and nags you if it goes without a call after a certain number of days.

It also makes a separate call to DirecTV every so often to upload purchased PPVs and I think upload some other data, like for sports subs.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

http://cbs5.com/consumer/local_story_102212708.html

_(CBS 5) Last year, Neil Gray went on vacation to his family cabin in Michigan, just like he always does. But when he got home to San Francisco, something unusual happened. He started getting phone bills from that empty cabin.

"The phone bill was over $800 and no one had been in the cottage since September for two months."

The next bill was even bigger.

"The total for the month was one thousand and three dollars and 65 cents."

Turns out, it was his TiVo box making those phone calls, which came as a big surprise to Neil, because he'd cancelled his TiVo subscription. And when Neil called TiVo for an explanation, he says they just pointed to a clause in their service agreement that says the company is not responsible for any calls.

"It didn't seem to matter to them. It was extremely frustrating."

"This seems like a horrible mistake on TiVo's part," says Joe Ridout of Consumer Action. "TiVo's customers should be able to trust that if they leave their machine alone, it's not going to suddenly start chattering away in the middle of the night and run up thousands of dollars in charges."

TiVo declined an on-camera interview, but a spokesman says cases like Neil's are "rare". And after CBS 5 called, *TiVo promised to take care of the phone bill.*

So what can TiVo subscriber's do to protect themselves? We found these tips on online chat boards like tivocommunity.com. If you get satellite TV, you only need the phone line for initial activation. After that, you can unplug your TiVo box and it should work fine. And if you have cable, there are ways to hook your box up to a DSL line, so you don't get stuck with any unexpected phone charges.

Neil hopes others will learn from his experience.

"If you cancel your TiVo service, unplug it from the phone jack." _

I can't believe TiVo caved and is going to pay his bill!


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## Francesco (Oct 4, 1999)

Once a month to DirecTV for mirroring and PPV/Sports, and TiVo every two to three days for yellow stars and showcases, and update checks. Guide updates happen via satellite.


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## LostCluster (Feb 11, 2002)

Eh, on a day when they win $73 Million, I guess they can afford to spare a buck or two thousand...


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

If you cancel your service why not just remove the phone line from the TiVo, better yet why pay for the power to run a unit that is disabled just unplug the dam thing till you re-up the service. TiVo makes one call a day because your TiVo does not know when you may turn on the service, without a phone call the unit would stay dead even if you re-activated it.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

And he's not using a local number?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=295622


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

The guy probably canceled his long distance plan along with his TiVo service thats why the bill was so high. Next year on his vacation he would have reactivated both. 

Will TiVo download new software releases when it is not subbed? If it will that would explain even more of the bill.


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## neilxuser (Apr 14, 2006)

So,

I'm Neil.

Yes I left the box plugged in. 
Yes I left it plugged into the phone jack

I had no reason to beleive that the box would continue to make phone calls. I had CANCELLED my service and left the cottage for the winter. the box made $1800 in calls in 2 months.

TIVO deserved to pay the bill for me. I am only upset that I had to call CBS to get it done.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

neilxuser said:


> So,
> 
> I'm Neil.
> 
> ...


If you cancelled the service, why did you leave the box plugged in? I wouldn't leave any electronics plugged in if I wasn't going to be occupying a house for months and I certainly wouldn't leave something plugged in that I had no intention of using. And, as soon as I got that first phone bill I would've gone back and at least disconnected the phone line ...

Tivo deserved to pay the bill for you?  
You don't have ANY responsibility here?


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

Did the box run up a big bill while it was active? Did you put in the wrong area code?

Sounds like user error.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

TydalForce said:


> And he's not using a local number?


There isn't a local dial in number EVERYWHERE in the country. I don't have one. The problem with using a highspeed internet connection is most places that have high speed (Other than satellite) are in a large enough area to have a local dial in number.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

kturcotte said:


> There isn't a local dial in number EVERYWHERE in the country. I don't have one. The problem with using a highspeed internet connection is most places that have high speed (Other than satellite) are in a large enough area to have a local dial in number.


True, but if he wasn't using a local number and knew it, then the phone bills wouldn't have been unexpected - they'd be about the same as they had been for the previous few months. In which case, I'd say "gee, I've been paying a lot in phone bills with this thing. I'm going to unplug it after I cancel..."


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

TydalForce said:


> True, but if he wasn't using a local number and knew it, then the phone bills wouldn't have been unexpected - they'd be about the same as they had been for the previous few months. In which case, I'd say "gee, I've been paying a lot in phone bills with this thing. I'm going to unplug it after I cancel..."


I completely agree-he should have known if it was a local number of not, and it should have been unplugged if he stopped service anyway. Just you seemed surprised that he wasn't using a local number, and I was just pointing out that that's not an option for everybody.
And what's with the $1800 phone bill?!?! Even if it was calling a long distance number EVERY day, that shouldn't add up to $1800. What was it-downloading new software EVERY time it called in? lol


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

neilxuser said:


> So,
> 
> I'm Neil.
> 
> ...


so you canceleld the service to save the monthly subscription while the TiVo would not be in use ?


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## Joeg180 (Jun 1, 2003)

A possible reason that the phone charge was so high was that he had season phone service, not that uncommon in some "summer" communities. The line is active for emergencies only at a much higher rate.

Since Neil hasn't explained what type of phone service his Tivo was hooked up to we may never know.


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## Moebius (Nov 25, 2002)

neilxuser said:


> So,
> 
> I'm Neil.
> 
> ...


Neil,

I'd understand this could be frustrating, and I'm glad TiVo decided to cover it for you. Personally, I'm not upset that you had to call CBS as this was a bit of user error here, but I do have an honest question. If you're not using the cottage for the winter, why would you leave any electronics plugged in? Forget the phone calls, or the electricity used, but just common sense safety. Could end up costing more than $1800 to come back and find everything in the cabin fried from a lightning strike, and I don't think any complaints to CBS will cover that.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MighTiVo said:


> http://cbs5.com/consumer/local_story_102212708.html
> 
> _(CBS 5) Last year, Neil Gray went on vacation to his family cabin in Michigan, just like he always does. But when he got home to San Francisco, something unusual happened. He started getting phone bills from that empty cabin.
> 
> ...


They should. If he canceled service the box shouldn't be calling in every day, or every 15 minutes.


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## Blurayfan (Oct 6, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> They should. If he canceled service the box shouldn't be calling in every day, or every 15 minutes.


The box calls in eveyday to check the current subscription status.


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## mrjam2jab (Jul 23, 2004)

He calls 800-Tivo to cancel/suspend service while the vacation home is not being used. But the tivo machine is not aware of this..so the machine will continue to do what it is supposed to do..make daily calls. Nobody told the MACHINE to cancel service.

He should have unplugged it. His negligence...his phone bill.....my opinion.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

mrjam2jab said:


> He calls 800-Tivo to cancel/suspend service while the vacation home is not being used. But the tivo machine is not aware of this..so the machine will continue to do what it is supposed to do..make daily calls. Nobody told the MACHINE to cancel service.
> 
> He should have unplugged it. His negligence...his phone bill.....my opinion.


Exactly. Even when the box got the "Cancel" status from a call in, it's still going to call home again to find out if service was reinstated.


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## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> They should. If he canceled service the box shouldn't be calling in every day, or every 15 minutes.


But thats BS, because anybody who has a Tivo knows that it makes a daily call regardless of account status--if it is not active, it'll make a daily call assuming it will have a change of status with the next call. They never engineered it to stop making the call because the vast majority of people that cancel *unplug* it and get rid of the box.

Now if Neil was cancelling just for a season when he wouldn't be in town, I would understand his gripe of not knowing what the Tivo was doing. But if he had no intention to resubscribe, Tivo should not be paying his phone bill.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

choccy said:


> But you don't get those with the service cancelled.


i shall have to choose another icon for sarcasm in the future



super dave said:


> My series 1 SAT-T60 makes about 20 calls a day, and if I didn't have the Vonage Unlimited plan I might care. If a person has a local plan that is metered I could see their bill being some ridiculous amount.


stupid question but how do you know that? do you get a list of calls? I dont with my phone will so would never know even if i did leave it plugged in. I'd have to check, but i swear the t60 had 'next call attempt' at one week out.

check that..i just deactivated it..oops


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

newsposter said:


> stupid question but how do you know that? do you get a list of calls? I dont with my phone will so would never know even if i did leave it plugged in. I'd have to check, but i swear the t60 had 'next call attempt' at one week out.
> 
> check that..i just deactivated it..oops


When I log into my Vonage account I can see every call ever made. There are a ton to DTV, not the one you see on Info screen, it is another number....

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=237554&highlight=calls


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## mrjam2jab (Jul 23, 2004)

Side note: Regardless of phone bill: Lets say he cancelled the service for the winter. When he returned to the cabin for the summer and went to reactivate the Tivo...is he gonna be in for a rude awakening when he discovers that he is now required to activate for a minimum of 1 year??? He would be required to follow the new pricing plan...yes?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

aus1ander said:


> But thats BS, because anybody who has a Tivo knows that it makes a daily call regardless of account status--if it is not active, it'll make a daily call assuming it will have a change of status with the next call. They never engineered it to stop making the call because the vast majority of people that cancel *unplug* it and get rid of the box.
> 
> Now if Neil was cancelling just for a season when he wouldn't be in town, I would understand his gripe of not knowing what the Tivo was doing. But if he had no intention to resubscribe, Tivo should not be paying his phone bill.


I've been using TiVo for two years and am not a noob with regard to what it can do and this is the FIRST time I have heard about daily calls when the machine is unsubbed. It would be a simple matter for TiVo to check the account status before dialing out and require a forced connection after the sub has been reinstated so it would resume the calls.

This is one of those user issues TiVo typically does so well, just not this time. I'm glad they took care of it and that it was reported so that others are made aware of it as well.


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## naiLS1 (Aug 19, 2005)

Tivo is paying the bill because it makes them look bad, not because they SHOULD. This is a classic example of an uninformed consumer. An INFORMED consumer would realise the thing calls everyday. You can check that on the box itself. It shows you when it last called, the status, and the next planned call. It doesn't just turn itself off when you cancel service. 

Also, common sense would tell you to unplug the stupid thing if you aren't even going to be there for a few months!


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## SleepyBob (Sep 28, 2000)

naiLS1 said:


> Tivo is paying the bill because it makes them look bad, not because they SHOULD. This is a classic example of an uninformed consumer. An INFORMED consumer would realise the thing calls everyday. You can check that on the box itself. It shows you when it last called, the status, and the next planned call. It doesn't just turn itself off when you cancel service.
> 
> Also, common sense would tell you to unplug the stupid thing if you aren't even going to be there for a few months!


But I don't think even an informed custumer would expect it to be calling for more than an hour a day.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

naiLS1 said:


> This is a classic example of an uninformed consumer. An INFORMED consumer would realise the thing calls everyday. You can check that on the box itself. It shows you when it last called, the status, and the next planned call. It doesn't just turn itself off when you cancel service.


I disagree. Cancellation policies and unsubbed TiVo behavior is hardly a well documented or advertised thing.



naiLS1 said:


> Also, common sense would tell you to unplug the stupid thing if you aren't even going to be there for a few months!


All the information I've read is that the TiVo performs better if left on all the time. Also given that harddrives left shut down for long periods of time may have issues restarting, I don't think it's unreasonable to leave it on. It my neck of the woods I would do exactly as you suggested, but not because it dialing out everyday when unsubbed, but because we get nasty electrical storms in the spring and summer. But this is something of the common sense variety in my area. Other areas of the country without the same issues may not be in the habit of unplugging unused appliances when they are gone.

An unsubbed TiVo shouldn't be making any calls.


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## kturcotte (Dec 9, 2002)

devdogaz said:


> Sounds to me like it's not a problem with TiVo but an indication that this guy needs a new telephone provider/plan.


That's probably another problem. If you're in someplace so small Tivo doesn't have local dial in number for you, chances are you're serviced by 1 phone company only. That's how it is where I live. No Verizon, AT&T, nothing national. Standish Telephone, and we can only call our exchange (787), and that's JUST the town we live in. If we call the next town over, it's a toll call.


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## aus1ander (Sep 17, 2004)

SleepyBob said:


> But I don't think even an informed custumer would expect it to be calling for more than an hour a day.


the duration of the call was probably not more than 5 minutes. but the person in question probably changed his phone plan because he was going to be gone for the season and each call costed him a lot of money.

Again, there is no point to keeping a Series 2 Tivo plugged in without service. No one can convince me otherwise.


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## Moebius (Nov 25, 2002)

SleepyBob said:


> But I don't think even an informed custumer would expect it to be calling for more than an hour a day.


The usual daily call shouldn't last more than 20 seconds or so, but assuming there's no local number where the cottage is, that could still add up quickly. When I first got TiVo, the local access was actually in a city that, while the closest, was actually considered a regional call. I never paid much attention, but then one day figured out that the daily calls were costing me about $.11. No biggie, but if it was long distance, that might add up more pretty quick, especially if there's no good LD plan at the vacation cottage.


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## dagap (Dec 5, 2003)

naiLS1 said:


> An INFORMED consumer would realise the thing calls everyday. You can check that on the box itself. It shows you when it last called, the status, and the next planned call. It doesn't just turn itself off when you cancel service.
> 
> Also, common sense would tell you to unplug the stupid thing if you aren't even going to be there for a few months!


Crazy. Nobody would ever expect a Tivo to rack up $1800 in LD charges, regardless of how well INFORMED.

Something unusual happened.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

dagap said:


> Crazy. Nobody would ever expect a Tivo to rack up $1800 in LD charges, regardless of how well INFORMED.
> 
> Something unusual happened.


 I agree. even at $3/minute with a 1 minute daily call, you're at $90/month. No software updates, no guide data, nothing but set the clock and check the status.

There are plenty of posts blaming the Tivo owner but something seems strange here. If his bill was $100/month I would understand it but this Tivo seems to have been doing some strange things.

I also don't know why a cancelled Tivo needs to call in every day. Once a week would seem to suffice considering you can force a call if you change your subscription status. But that's not important here.

There's more to this story. The dollar amount is too high.

_ITV


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## Moebius (Nov 25, 2002)

interactiveTV said:


> I agree. even at $3/minute with a 1 minute daily call, you're at $90/month. No software updates, no guide data, nothing but set the clock and check the status.
> 
> There are plenty of posts blaming the Tivo owner but something seems strange here. If his bill was $100/month I would understand it but this Tivo seems to have been doing some strange things.
> 
> ...


The only other thing I can think of is it was having trouble downloading the service update or something. Or, being so remote the phone connection was weak and kept dropping and redialing perhaps.


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## GBL (Apr 20, 2000)

neilxuser said:


> So,
> 
> I'm Neil.
> 
> ...


Interesting case, Neil.

Please provide us with more info about the phone bill(s), like:

How many calls, duration, how frequently, same number, presumably?


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

MikeMar said:


> I want to hear about this story


There ya go....

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=295195&highlight=218+trillion


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> An unsubbed TiVo shouldn't be making any calls.


Ok, so how does a resubbed TiVo know it's resubbed then if it doesn't make any calls?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Ok, so how does a resubbed TiVo know it's resubbed then if it doesn't make any calls?


how many subs can a resub sub if a resub did not have a hub


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Ok, so how does a resubbed TiVo know it's resubbed then if it doesn't make any calls?


You force a call when you resub it.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> You force a call when you resub it.


Yes but then people would complain that they had to force the call. 

Besides an unsubbed TiVo Series 1 also calls in to sync it's internal clock because it does drift.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> You force a call when you resub it.


Of course this is exactly what TiVo does not want and that is for the user to have to figure out how to force a call to be able to resub. If it was someone like my grandparents you would have to walk them trough how to do that. The big problem there is if you are on the phone with TiVo having them walk you through the force phone call you can not use the phone.

The other bad part for TiVo is if they ever had a database problem that made a TiVo think it had been unsubbed it would never fix itself until the user forced a call.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Not to mention, if someone canceled Tivo service, obviously they're going to unplug their Tivo!

IMO that news report was really irresponsible. We have enough real corporate crime going on that we dont need to investigate something that was most likely the product working correctly.

I love (ie hate) that line that went something like people shouldnt have to be worried their Tivo might call at any hour during the night! umm, yeah, thats how it has to work. Great research there.

Presumably if you cancel service but then plug the TiVo back in, it means youre uncanceling it, so it should be checking back.

The bill amounts are really suspicious too. Either the plan was really wonky and horrible (which isnt TiVos fault), or else something else was going on-like someone breaking in to the place and placing phone calls, or somehow stealing the number or something like that. Does an unsubbed Tivo even download any guide data or updates? If all its doing is checking the subscription status and setting the clock once every 25 hours or so, even long distance it wouldnt cost THAT much.


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## tivoproblems (Apr 14, 2006)

The Full Story...

Neil set up TiVo for his mother at a family summer home. She left Michigan without using it once. From San Francisco, after everyone had left the house, the service was cancelled because it was not used. Nobody was at the house to unplug it. That is the only reason that it wasn't disconnected.

TiVo calls had costed about $2/mo. It is in a small Michigan town and the nearest number was long distance. TiVo stated that the box must have been defective, because a month after service was cancelled, it started to call in numerous times a day, some calls lasting hours.

Nobody was trying to be sneaky. Maybe just not as tech savvy. When i cancel things, i don't expect them to work anymore. If there was any warning that this would be a problem, either on their website or from the customer service people when the service was cancelled, none of this would have come up. It is an unfortunate situation from both ends.


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## tivoproblems (Apr 14, 2006)

...the calls were made at peak times (not off peak night calls) to one number. the phone company traced that number to a TiVo number. the phone bills were pages and pages long. Some calls lasted two hours. It really added up.


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

So what was the cost per min?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tivoproblems said:


> TiVo calls had costed about $2/mo. It is in a small Michigan town and the nearest number was long distance. TiVo stated that the box must have been defective, because a month after service was cancelled, it started to call in numerous times a day, some calls lasting hours.
> 
> Nobody was trying to be sneaky. Maybe just not as tech savvy.


yep. it should have continued being 2$ or less a month in calls then to set the clock and see if it was resubbed.

TiVo is covering bills incurred due to a defect in the product and to keep the press from doing more with the story.

I assume this happened last summer and just recently got the press attention. Know that from now on when you sub that TiVo it will be for a year or there will be a 150$ early cancellation fee (150$ is basically a year of service)


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## tivoproblems (Apr 14, 2006)

On January 13, TiVo made the following calls:

4:17am 92 minutes $22
1:56pm 92 Minutes $22
11:46pm 86 minutes $17

That is $65 in one day. It adds up.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tivoproblems said:


> On January 13, TiVo made the following calls:
> 
> 4:17am 92 minutes $22
> 1:56pm 92 Minutes $22
> ...


Umm that is 24 cents a minute. TiVo should not have made such long calls but you all need a better phone plan


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## tivoproblems (Apr 14, 2006)

TiVo was cancelled in late September. October/November calls were still around $2/mo. When they got the phone bill, they thought it was the phone company and called them. They were trying to get to the bottom of it when the next phone bill came and it was $1,000. THey cancelled the phone service until they could figure it out. That is when they found out it was TiVo. Numerous calls were made to TiVo over the next month trying to explain the situation. THey just said "sorry, not our problem".


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## tivoproblems (Apr 14, 2006)

sorry...the second call at 1:56 was $26, for a total of $65


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

tivoproblems said:


> That is when they found out it was TiVo. Numerous calls were made to TiVo over the next month trying to explain the situation. THey just said "sorry, not our problem".


seems there is little doubt it was TiVo doing the calling. 
Too bad you did not find this forum in January. TiVo associates would have picked up your postings and most likely given a real answer vs getting hold of CSRs reading from the "phone bill is not a TiVo issue" script.

still 24 cents a minute is a bad deal now adays. You must use the cell phone for regular calls


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Crazy... I wonder what's going on with the unit? Maybe like someone said above, it was trying to download a serivce update, but it kept failing?

Shameless plug: http://www.pioneertelephone.com has a good LD plan... I pay 2.7 cents/minute with no monthly fees.


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## choccy (Jan 1, 2001)

tivoproblems said:


> THey just said "sorry, not our problem".


And they were right.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

choccy said:


> And they were right.


Legally they were right but if the TiVo is malfunctioning then I do think TiVo had some responsiblity. I say TiVo should pay all of the bill minus the $2 dollars a month which the owner should pay.

My TiVo is hooked up on the internet, but if TiVo did not take care of this kind of problem when the hardware fails then I expect a lot of people would think twice before getting a TiVo.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

segaily said:


> Legally they were right but if the TiVo is malfunctioning then I do think TiVo had some responsiblity. I say TiVo should pay all of the bill minus the $2 dollars a month which the owner should pay.
> 
> My TiVo is hooked up on the internet, but if TiVo did not take care of this kind of problem when the hardware fails then I expect a lot of people would think twice before getting a TiVo.


 Legally they are not right. Tivo is certainly responsible for charges incurred due to a malfunctioning unit. If my Tivo suddenly decides to call Taiwan for 9 hours, Tivo's TOS won't get them out it.

This was clearly a malfunctioning product. The rash of posts bashing the owner for not disconnecting the phone line are now shown to be silly. No one can or should have to plan or forsee how or when a product will malfunction in this bizarre manner.

If your stove blows up, was it stupid not to disconnect the gas before leaving the house?

Considering this board hasn't seen this issue -- that I can find -- we can consider this type of Tivo malfunction to be very rare and unforeseeable. That alone gets the owner a bigger break than many of the responses in this thread gave him.

A cancelled Tivo shouldn't download a service update, shouldn't call in peak times, and, in my experience, should only make a certain number of calls per day (that don't connect) before giving up for the day. The cancelled unit also means he wasn't under Tivo's Terms of Service anymore, but that's a legal blackhole we don't need to dive into.

There were a few instances in the UK of televisions sending out SOS signals on the frequency used by the Royal Airforce. It also happened in Oregon.

I guess we should unplug everything and line the walls with tin foil. Just in case.

_ITV


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Or it could be a bad phone line.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

mrjam2jab said:


> Side note: Regardless of phone bill: Lets say he cancelled the service for the winter. When he returned to the cabin for the summer and went to reactivate the Tivo...is he gonna be in for a rude awakening when he discovers that he is now required to activate for a minimum of 1 year??? He would be required to follow the new pricing plan...yes?


For most people, yes. But he'll probably call CBS, say I was a moron again and get Tivo to let him reup without the commitment.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Puppy76 said:


> Not to mention, if someone canceled Tivo service, obviously they're going to unplug their Tivo!


Nah, not if you're Neil.

He probably has his old Beta Max, 8 track deck and LaserDisc player still plugged in too ... 

This story doesn't make sense on so many levels ....


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

tivoproblems said:


> The Full Story...
> 
> Neil set up TiVo for his mother at a family summer home. She left Michigan without using it once. From San Francisco, after everyone had left the house, the service was cancelled because it was not used. Nobody was at the house to unplug it. That is the only reason that it wasn't disconnected.
> 
> ...


Well, if the normal use was $2 a month and the box went crazy because of a defect, I have a little more sympathy for Neil. But I still can't let him off the hook for (a) leaving it plugged in and (b) leaving the phone line connected.


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## neilxuser (Apr 14, 2006)

Here is the way the bill looked. Hopefully you have all read the rest of the thread and realized that I had no ill intentions toward your beloved Tivo or this board.

I had no reason to think that unplugging the system was necessary. I was back in California when I cancelled service and had no way to unplug the machine. 

When I first became aware of the phone charges, my suspicions were directed at the phone company. I dialed the listed number and could tell that it was an internet line, but had no way of knowing that it was a TIVO dial-in number. I was charged 24 cents a minute as I have no choices in phone companies or Tivo dial-in numbers. 

Understand that TIVO's reaction was ridiculous and they were rude to everyone who called on my behalf. They also lied about gathering information and following up about the problem.

Lastly, if I had known that you guys discussed TIVO and the problems which had been previously encountered, I WOULD HAVE COME TO YOU FIRST.

The interest on the part of CBS5 was not anticipated. It simply provided a place to vent frustrations when I contacted them. Almost as unpredictable as the malfunction in the unit was the way that CBS5 choose to discuss the story. Although no fault of mine, I am sorry that they did not provide all relevant facts in order to keep you guys from thinking that I was negligent.


In my fifth post I will show you the silly bill


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## neilxuser (Apr 14, 2006)

Just filler until the fifth post with the bill


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

interactiveTV said:


> If your stove blows up, was it stupid not to disconnect the gas before leaving the house?


If you decide that you aren't going to use the stove any longer, yes, it's stupid not to disconnect the gas line or at least turn off the pilot light.

I have an oven that's not working - you think I have the power still connected?
(Hint: think two letter answer, with the last letter being a vowel found near the end of the alphabet)


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## neilxuser (Apr 14, 2006)

BTW:

Thank You InteractiveTV for understanding. Read ITV's post again and see how silly you all sound.


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## neilxuser (Apr 14, 2006)

WooHoo my fifth post!


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## neilxuser (Apr 14, 2006)

Hopefully you will see how BAMBOOZLED I felt!


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

neilxuser said:


> Understand that TIVO's reaction was ridiculous and they were rude to everyone who called on my behalf. They also lied about gathering information and following up about the problem.


If this part is true, then I have no problem in having Tivo pay the phone bill. There's no excuse for poor customer service from a company totally dependant on good customer service.

I apologize for some of my jokes at your expense.


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## Inundated (Sep 10, 2003)

Neil, did they ever figure out what the unit was trying to do with all those 80 to 90 minute calls? I can't figure out how that could happen.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

What the heck is the TiVo doing that takes two 90 minute phone calls a day to do?

That's a bit extreme, a 5 minute phone call every other day I could see, but a couple over an hour and a half?



phox


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## neilxuser (Apr 14, 2006)

I was told by a TIVO customer service manager that he had no explanation for the calls. The box can call in for service updates as you all know, but he had never seen anything like this. He said that the unit was malfunctioning.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

So what's the call to Elkton then?


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## TiVoMonkey (Jan 12, 2002)

If I were you, I'd get this TiVo to a phone line where it can make local calls, and see if it actually does tie up the phone for 90 minutes at a time.

Because if it's not, sounds like the phone company is fleecing you. 

But perhaps, more simply, the modem was fried somehow, and could no longer hang up after making a call, so calls just timed out, and the phone company still charged for dead air.

A dead/dying modem isn't entirely TiVo's fault. But they paid the bill, so good for them.


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## xnevergiveinx (Apr 5, 2004)

choccy said:


> Huh.. unactivated tivos only dial up to check to see if they've been re-activated, and to set their clock. A 1 minute call max. Plus, they only check every few days, it's not even daily. There's no program guide data transfer during this call.
> 
> I don't believe a single tivo on a regular phone line, even calling internationally, can run up a $800/month bill. Something else is going on here.


agreed. also, why couldn't he have selected a number that wasn't long distance? don't you also have a choice to select an 800 number?

why would you leave an unsubscribed tivo in a cabin, plugged in, anyways?


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

neilxuser Thank you for taking the time to give us the full story. A lot of people would have gotten upset and stoped posting. I am happy TiVo resolved this for you. It is unfortunate that they did not treat you better a first.


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## segaily (Aug 3, 2003)

xnevergiveinx said:


> agreed. also, why couldn't he have selected a number that wasn't long distance? don't you also have a choice to select an 800 number?
> 
> why would you leave an unsubscribed tivo in a cabin, plugged in, anyways?


I know quite a few years ago TiVo stopped offering new subs use of 800 numbers. As explained earlier in the thread there is no local number and he was no longer at the cabin when he called to cancel. Who knows with TiVo malfunctioning he might have had the same problem even if he had not cancelled.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

TiVo may have stopped "offering" new subs the use of 800 numbers, it doesn't stop them using those numbers though.

Back to the topic.

Does Neil's story mean, that if I bought a used TiVo from a person who last used it in, say California, and use it in my home in Indiana, that the first call that it makes would be to the Californian call in number? _Great, and I cancelled my long distance, and put a block on my local carrier providing the occasional long distance call._

What number is called for guided setup?, is that is a free number? and is that the same number that the TiVo uses for subscription status, if not, why not?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TiVo should actually be able to check their logs and see exactly what this unit was trying to do.


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## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

xnevergiveinx said:


> agreed. also, why couldn't he have selected a number that wasn't long distance? don't you also have a choice to select an 800 number?
> 
> why would you leave an unsubscribed tivo in a cabin, plugged in, anyways?


Have you read this thread?


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Sherminator said:


> What number is called for guided setup?, is that is a free number? and is that the same number that the TiVo uses for subscription status, if not, why not?


During guided setup you select a number from a list of choices after you enter your area code.

I don't know if it's the same number that Tivo uses for subscription status, but I don't know why it wouldn't be.


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## interactiveTV (Jul 2, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> If you decide that you aren't going to use the stove any longer, yes, it's stupid not to disconnect the gas line or at least turn off the pilot light.
> 
> I have an oven that's not working - you think I have the power still connected?
> (Hint: think two letter answer, with the last letter being a vowel found near the end of the alphabet)


 That wasn't my point. It was the hindsight that people here are using. Not a non-working stove but the "duh just ..." after something you can't control or is basically random happens.

This was a problem we-- collectively -- haven't seen (or someone correct me on that). Neil cancelled his service from another state. He had no way to foresee this kind of error.

The product malfunctioned. The producted caused economic harm. It's not complicated. If anyone here could have guessed this or something like it would have occured, bless them.

What if your Tivo decides to call Guam every night for 60 minutes in the middle of the night? Should the brilliant hindsight offered here _then_ be that all those with a Tivo connected to a phone line disconnect it _after every_ verified update call?

It's an unreasonable expectation for someone to anticipate this kind of malfunction. No one here expected it. I haven't see, in the thousands of posts I've read, anything about Tivo calling for 1,000 minutes a month. I've seen lightning strike issues and power surge and if that happened, yes, he's SOL.

Some of this thread feels overly harsh to me. Tivo was broken. The Tivo malfunctioned in an unexpected way. It caused economic harm. Tivo's fault. And if Tivo CS was rude on top of that, well, there's no excuse for that either. This wasn't user error. Not from what we know. Why blame the user?

_ITV


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> During guided setup you select a number from a list of choices after you enter your area code.
> 
> I don't know if it's the same number that Tivo uses for subscription status, but I don't know why it wouldn't be.


Yeah, but, no, but yeah.... Before it gives you a list of numbers that it thinks may be local to you, it calls in to get them.

I also had never noticed a long distance call that I didn't personally dial during the period in which my TiVo performed it's guided setup. Plus my Humax DRT800 _has_ free call in numbers in its phone book, I don't see why TiVo brand units won't also.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Sherminator said:


> Yeah, but, no, but yeah.... Before it gives you a list of numbers that it thinks may be local to you, it calls in to get them.
> 
> I also had never noticed a long distance call that I didn't personally dial during the period in which my TiVo performed it's guided setup. Plus my Humax DRT800 _has_ free call in numbers in its phone book, I don't see why TiVo brand units won't also.


I think the initial call during Guided Setup is probably to an 800 number that's only available for GS and not for daily calls. Once you set it up, you put in your Area Code and then that 800# is no longer available to you.


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## Joeg180 (Jun 1, 2003)

Neil,
thanks for the rest of the story.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

devdogaz said:


> I think the initial call during Guided Setup is probably to an 800 number that's only available for GS and not for daily calls. Once you set it up, you put in your Area Code and then that 800# is no longer available to you.


When I had no local number, & no broadband availability, I told my TiVo, that my area code was 866, and it gave me a number, I used that for about 4 months until I moved to an area with a local number.

Back to the story at hand, the moral of this should be that TiVo CSR's should inform the person cancelling service that, "The device still makes calls to confirm it's status, and should be disconnected from at least the telephone line until such a time when <the owner> decides re-active the unit."


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Sherminator said:


> the moral of this should be that TiVo CSR's should inform the person cancelling service that, "The device still makes calls to confirm it's status, and should be disconnected from at least the telephone line until such a time when <the owner> decides re-active the unit."


Now that is a good idea!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Sherminator said:


> Back to the story at hand, the moral of this should be that TiVo CSR's should inform the person cancelling service that, "The device still makes calls to confirm it's status, and should be disconnected from at least the telephone line until such a time when <the owner> decides re-active the unit."


Which in Neil's case wouldn't have mattered - if it had just been the calls to confirm its status, it wouldn't have been a problem. The problem was the abnormal length and frequency of the calls.


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## Sherminator (Nov 24, 2004)

But he would have had the choice to ask someone to go round to the cottage and pull the telephone cable.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

JYoung said:


> So what's the call to Elkton then?


That is a little curious for a cabin where nobody is to make a 1 minute call somewhere else....

-smak-


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I would not have expected a surge in calls like that either.
The only thing I can imagine is the TiVo was tyring to get an upgrade and had problems getting the full download via the modem and phone line.

I think this is a lesson learned on never leave a TiVo plugged in via phone line if you are going to be away for an extended period of time covering months.
Especially if you are forced to use a non local number.


I would still like to hear the specific reason for cancelling if the Neil or TiVoproblems would like to share it.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/04/17/tivo-box-reaches-out-to-touch-someone/

funny article

The culprit was not some teenage squatter, or even a brown bear who stole picnic baskets, but the man's TiVo box.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

That article/blog/whatever they want to call it was wrong too...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I would still like to hear the specific reason for cancelling if the Neil or TiVoproblems would like to share it.


What does that have to do with anything?


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