# June 1st is not the end!!!



## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

I know a lot of the users that frequent the tivocommunity forums are aware of the Alternative EPG Project going on (Link) , but as that information has kinda got buried in the original posts, it dawned on me that many occasional visitors that are just popping in here may not know that June 1st is not the necessarily the end for them.

So I thought I would pop up a new post to advise new visitors here that come June 1st, if you one of those not able to get a nice new Virgin Media Cable Tivo and really don't want to be forced to buy a new, possibly inferior PVR, you won't have to!

I hope this is not deemed out of line, I don't think it is because I believe these forums have always been about the tivo community as a whole. Technically, whilst Tivo Inc. may not be in a position to sustain the old series 1 service, anything that avoids their old loyal users from moving to competitive boxes and services can only be a good thing for Tivo & Virgin !!


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## CarlWalters (Oct 17, 2001)

Could this be made a sticky? Or would that be against the rules?


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

CarlWalters said:


> Could this be made a sticky? Or would that be against the rules?


It *may* be considered technically against the rules of this site to talk about alternative EPG _before_ June 1st because it fringes on "theft of service". I would think that _after_ June 1st, you folks will no longer have a contractual agreement with TiVo, and no "theft" would/will be taking place; you'll just be talking about an alternative source for the (officially unsupported) TiVo hardware that you own.

Considering all the discussion so far, and the fact that alternative EPG isn't yet available, the moderators and admins of this site haven't deemed any of these discussion "against the rules".


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

I agree with orangeboy's sentiments, and I would like to add that Tivo has made the S1 service Free since the end of 2010 up to the finish date in June.
Even if we made the alternative epg service live (which we won't apart from testing) before June 1st, I'm not sure we can fall into the "theft of service" category for something that's being provided free anyway


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

Is this stealing ...


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## sjp (Oct 22, 2001)

steveroe said:


> Is this stealing ...


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

I don't get the joke !?


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## sjp (Oct 22, 2001)

drop into the US Happy Hour forum - no more than 27 minutes pass without some form of "is this stealing" thread popping up.

OK, 27 minutes might not be all that accurate but it's close


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## speedyrite (May 18, 2002)

Would it be possible to have a brief, high-level summary of the proposition for the alternative EPG service? Off the top of my head I'm thinking:

- will the alt EPG definitely "fly"?
- what will it cost me to use the alt EPG?
- what will I need to do to use the alt EPG if I've already got a modified TiVo with network access?
- what will I need to do to use the alt EPG if I've got a standard unmodified TiVo?

Just my 2p worth, but I would find it useful to have an idea about these matters - sooner rather than later - in order to help make that all important decision as to whether to stick with TiVo S1 or to get something else (albeit inferior!)

I have, in fact, got a Sky+HD box coming next week to replace the first of my two standard Sky boxes. This is a strategic move really to keep my options open. If TiVo S1 lives on, I can just use the Sky+HD as the source for TiVo and not bother recording on it. But it would be nice to know what I'm going to have to do to use the alt EPG.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

*I don't want to jeopardise this thread as its important that new visitors at least find out information that their old Tivo's will not be unusable after June,
so I don't wan't to turn this thread into a discussion about the Alt EPG, feel free to have those discussions here. I will just answer these valid points:*



speedyrite said:


> Would it be possible to have a brief, high-level summary of the proposition for the alternative EPG service? Off the top of my head I'm thinking:





> - will the alt EPG definitely "fly"?


*Yes and its likely the Alt EPG will offer enhancements over the original (considering the original was just servicing an system that was benched circa. 2002!)*



> - what will it cost me to use the alt EPG?


*Nothing, is the short answer. An important requirement of the source code developed to provide this system is that it not be used for commercial purposes!*



> - what will I need to do to use the alt EPG if I've already got a modified TiVo with network access?


*Nothing, just a config change*



> - what will I need to do to use the alt EPG if I've got a standard unmodified TiVo?


*Possibly nothing also. We are investigating providing a dial-up solution to cover all users.*


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## speedyrite (May 18, 2002)

Thanks for answering my queries Dave - all sounds good then!


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## Davyburns (Jan 7, 2004)

healeydave said:


> many occasional visitors that are just popping in here may not know that June 1st is not the necessarily the end for them.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Davyburns said:


> I have just told Virgin to stuff there new tivo, as its gonna cost me an extra £20 a month for channels I dont want.


It's interesting to read peoples' different reaction to the new TiVo.

Some in your position would say it's £20 a month for a TiVo they do want, with extra channels thrown in...

Others would simply refuse on principle, because TiVo may switch off the service in 8 years' time.


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## CH1 (Jul 18, 2004)

I do check in to Tivoland from time to time but am wondering where you will postthe EPG solution (hoping it works - and I'm happy to subscribe) - will there be a post on here (after June 1st) or elsewhere?

Thanks for all your hard work.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Trinitron said:


> It's interesting to read peoples' different reaction to the new TiVo.
> 
> Some in your position would say it's £20 a month for a TiVo they do want, with extra channels thrown in...
> 
> Others would simply refuse on principle, because TiVo may switch off the service in 8 years' time.


I think the number prepared to pay £20 for "just" TiVo is quite low.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

Will this EPG solution effectively turn all Tivos into lifetime service Tivos in the UK?


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes


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## Tony T (Feb 25, 2011)

Nice to know, as I have just told Virgin to stuff there new tivo, as its gonna cost me an extra £20 a month for channels I dont want.[/QUOTE]

I very nearly went with Virgin's new TIVO deal until I discovered that I wasn't buying a new TIVO although £3 amonth rental is OK but they insist on £149 connection fee but I'm already connected to Virgin media so what do they do for that money? They also insist that I upgrade to their XL package for a minimum of 18 months which is ok but that the end of that 18 months if I go back to a normal package, they will demand their tivo BACK!

I have a completeley untampered with TIVO that I bought in 2002 and I just want to continue using that.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

You never own equipment from VM, everything is rented.


Tony T said:


> upgrade to their XL package for a minimum of 18 months which is ok but that the end of that 18 months if I go back to a normal package, they will demand their tivo BACK!


They'll want the TiVo back if you cease all TV packages - but I doubt the Tivo will still only be available on the XL package in 18 months time.

After all the plan is to replace all VM boxes with TiVo based software within a few years.


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## waamo (Oct 24, 2002)

Wow, it's been years since I've been here.

I'm getting messages on my trusty machine to say it's the end 

I am so glad something is being done. I love my Tivo, I've got a Sky+ in my other room and in all honesty there is no competition, 

I have no technical skill at all, opening a tin of beans is about my level but Tivo is easier than that! It just works.


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## paulcahill (May 8, 2009)

Thanks for the update.

Being a (human) communications specialist, it is a pleasure to find the information provided in this thread, it was both timely and thoughtful.

Many thanks to all concerned.

Paul Cahill


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## MikeC34 (Mar 2, 2009)

healeydave said:


> I agree with orangeboy's sentiments, and I would like to add that Tivo has made the S1 service Free since the end of 2010 up to the finish date in June.
> Even if we made the alternative epg service live (which we won't apart from testing) before June 1st, I'm not sure we can fall into the "theft of service" category for something that's being provided free anyway


My updates have continually failed after 15 mins of downloading since Monday 14th March "call interrupted". Today I have a message stating "Only 7 days of Programme Data remain. Please make a Daily Call". My Tivo has been trying repeatedly ever since 15th March. My latest try @ 6:53pm today timed out at 15 mins again. TiVo must have a timeout on incoming calls and as the data needed is so vast, 15 mins is totally inadequate. TiVo may as well pull the plug today!


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

You should be able to download the missing data is less than 15 minutes - I would say some problem on your phone line is the problem.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Indeed. On dial-up the data are downloaded in only a couple of minutes.

.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

The 15 mins interrupted is a symptom of the tiscali/ talk talk problem:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=408738

Basically the fix is to change your dial prefix to

,#090,,08081050005

It's in the menu Messages and Setup / Recorder & Phone Setup / Phone Connection / Change Dialling Options / Set Dial Prefix

http://www.tivocentral.co.uk/tivo-dialup-daily-call.php


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## Paul_J (Jan 9, 2001)

I also had this issue on my TalkTalk line and I had to plug it into another phone line to getting it working, then it carried on working fine after being given a bit of a boot.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

mikerr said:


> The 15 mins interrupted is a symptom of the tiscali/ talk talk problem:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=408738
> 
> Basically the fix is to change your dial prefix to
> ...


I had to do this a while back.

But I bought a second liftime subbed Tivo recently and it is working quite happily on the original setting

Alek


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## MikeC34 (Mar 2, 2009)

mikerr said:


> The 15 mins interrupted is a symptom of the tiscali/ talk talk problem:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=408738
> 
> Basically the fix is to change your dial prefix to
> ...


Thanks for the information. Will give it a try now. But I wonder why the problem has just appeared when my updating has worked since 2002 and I haven't changed my ISP for 3 years or more.

Oh dear, still getting "call interrupted". Will try a neighbour's phone.


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## randap (Jan 21, 2003)

This is the best news ever!! My wife was virtually in tears when the June 1st announcement was made. We are both made up that something will keep our TiVo going. Not only that, but I'd be willing to pay - so free is simply amazing. 

Count me in!!

Paul.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

MikeC34 said:


> But I wonder why the problem has just appeared when my updating has worked since 2002 and I haven't changed my ISP for 3 years or more.


Exchange equipment/software can be "upgraded" at any time without your knowledge 

For TiVo dial-up it's not your ISP that's relevant but your normal telephone supplier.

You never said: who is your phone provider? Tiscali/Talk Talk? Have you changed recently?

.


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## MikeC34 (Mar 2, 2009)

spitfires said:


> Exchange equipment/software can be "upgraded" at any time without your knowledge
> 
> For TiVo dial-up it's not your ISP that's relevant but your normal telephone supplier.
> 
> ...


Fair point. I meant I hadn't changed my phone supplier/ISP for 3 years. Yes it is TalkTalk. Have added the dial prefix suggested by Mikerr & tried 2 neighbour's lines. First has Tiscali so didn't expect much success and got same result. Other neighbour has BT line with a Pipex account, had to remove prefix to get a connection but result was still the same. Plan to try at my daughter's telephone exchange 20 miles away. She also has a TiVo and BT line, so will try updating mine followed by hers for comparisons.

Appears the download stage is just looping or stalled. I have a cache card with 256mb memory in my TiVo and, depending on my comparisons, it might be worth removing in case it is causing a problem.


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## MikeC34 (Mar 2, 2009)

MikeC34 said:


> Fair point. I meant I hadn't changed my phone supplier/ISP for 3 years. Yes it is TalkTalk. Have added the dial prefix suggested by Mikerr & tried 2 neighbour's lines. First has Tiscali so didn't expect much success and got same result. Other neighbour has BT line with a Pipex account, had to remove prefix to get a connection but result was still the same. Plan to try at my daughter's telephone exchange 20 miles away. She also has a TiVo and BT line, so will try updating mine followed by hers for comparisons.
> 
> Appears the download stage is just looping or stalled. I have a cache card with 256mb memory in my TiVo and, depending on my comparisons, it might be worth removing in case it is causing a problem.


SUCCESS! It appears that, after adding the dial prefix to stop TalkTalk timeout, I was not waiting long enough for the download to finish.
My daughter's TiVo also had not been powered up for a while and her TiVo had no forthcoming EPG data either. Running the daily update on her machine took 36 minutes to download and a further 2+ hours to digest the update.
I then ran my machine & that download took around 31 mins and a further hour to complete - mine has the CacheCard & memory to explain the difference.
Returning home I deleted a Season Pass and when trying to setup another I got a system message saying something about the system was still updating try again in 1 - 3 hours. So even after the daily update has digested the EPG data there is a lot of background processing to fully complete the update.
That evening I ran the next update and the phone download was less than 2 mins and I left the rest to run in standby.

So download time is very much dependant on the amount of forward EPG residing in the machine. Given it has run out it will be a good 1/2hr download and around 3 hours, or more, to sort out the data and checkout all the season passes.

Thanks for all the comments and I hope this info is of use to others who may find themselves in the same hole.


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## asantaga-1 (Nov 12, 2004)

Is the site down? i cant get to it?


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## MikeC34 (Mar 2, 2009)

asantaga said:


> Is the site down? i cant get to it?


Have just used this link OK:
http://www.tivoland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=393


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## asantaga-1 (Nov 12, 2004)

yup working now


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Well this is an interesting thread 

http://www.tivoland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=421


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

healeydave said:


> Well this is an interesting thread
> 
> http://www.tivoland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=421


Wow! Congrats you guys! :up:
While it doesn't directly effect me, it good to see some enterprising folks doing what it takes to keep those TiVo boxen going!


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## khadland (Aug 29, 2002)

Woot! Wish I'd kept up my geekery so I could help you guys, but I'll be switching 3 Tivo's over as soon as you're up & running.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Well done that's really impressive!


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## pj280167 (Dec 21, 2005)

Nice one all concerned and thanks for your hard work.

I'll buy you a beer any time.

Pj, Pj's wife and the Inlaws.


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

A Fantastic Milestone - thank you to all involved.


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## a_tivo_noob (Jan 2, 2004)

that looks good - in fact, it looks fantastic - so forgive me on this question, but what is the next milestone?


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

Very impressive, well done


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

The next milestone is making a standard TiVo be able to dial-in to the new service via a simple number change and self hack itself, so to speak


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## adamnjsdad (Feb 10, 2011)

Well done to all involved


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## JanSzafranski (May 6, 2007)

A huge cheer to all those involved


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

pj280167 said:


> Nice one all concerned and thanks for your hard work.
> 
> I'll buy you a beer any time.
> 
> Pj, Pj's wife and the Inlaws.


Phew, could do with a beer, early night tonight, if u call 15 mins to midnight early


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## randap (Jan 21, 2003)

I am literally beside myself with excitement over this. I can't bring myself to pay Virgin for anything at all... SWMBO is also thrilled to learn that TiVo will keep going.

Thanks to all for this, just wish I had the know-how to help...


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## EvilBoB (Nov 6, 2002)

sjp said:


> drop into the US Happy Hour forum - no more than 27 minutes pass without some form of "is this stealing" thread popping up.
> 
> OK, 27 minutes might not be all that accurate but it's close


Do you say 27 minutes because of the 30 minute buffer so if it's more you will never know....?  Unless you mod yourself of course...


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## a_tivo_noob (Jan 2, 2004)

wow, time flies when you're having fun eh!

I just realised that the end is now just a month away 

Hope everything is going well in 'alternate epg' land, and will throw my hat in the ring if you need any form of assistance re: testing as I have a spare box here... actually, i've realised i'll have two spare boxes in about 4 weeks time


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## khadland (Aug 29, 2002)

A dumb question about the changeover to the Alternate EPG - apologies if this has already been covered. Are we expecting that the existing guide data will only extend as far as 23:59 on 31/5 or that it will roll forward the usual 7-14 days beyond 1/6? The latter would certainly make handover to the new EPG a bit easier.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

khadland said:


> A dumb question about the changeover to the Alternate EPG - apologies if this has already been covered. Are we expecting that the existing guide data will only extend as far as 23:59 on 31/5 or that it will roll forward the usual 7-14 days beyond 1/6? The latter would certainly make handover to the new EPG a bit easier.


Or indeed will there be a last minute extension in Tivo S1 service of another 3 or 4 months given that Virgin have not yet launched their 500MB model available to customers on all existing Virgin subscription price plans and even once they do this it will probably take Virgin at least another 2 or 3 months to install all Tivo S1 customers who want one.

Obviously we must take it as read that they do not give two hoots for those of us who do not live in Virgin Tivo land but surely they must want both an orderly and full as possible transfer for all Tivo S1 owners who live within their service area.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

I cannot see TiVo investing time and effort to produce a one-off download chopping the guide data exactly at 31/5, so I would expect the last download on 31/5 to be the usual 7-14 days (hence lasting into part of June).

Any extension beyond 31/5 for any S1 TiVos (either all or a subset) is a pure pipe dream.



(note if disposed: The opinions expressed here are the views and opinions of the writer and do not necessarily reflect the official policy stated or not stated of any other individual or any organisation nor do they necessarily represent the actual condition either in the past, present or future. No facts were involved in the making of these opinions. No evidence can or will be provided to justify these opinions nor is any required.)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

spitfires said:


> so I would expect the last download on 31/5 to be the usual 7-14 days (hence lasting into part of June).


That would be 7-21 days then.



> Any extension beyond 31/5 for any S1 TiVos (either all or a subset) is a pure pipe dream.


Why do you say that.

They have been keen to do a lot of reaching out to S1 owners in Virgin Cable areas in order to sign them up to the new Tivo and/or the whole Virgin Media service for the first time. If they can't handle everyone who wants to convert to the Virgin Tivo at their existing package level level (which the 1TB Tivo product's contract does not cater for unlike the soon to be launched 500MB model) then why not show some good grace by carrying on until everyone who wants to switch to a Virgin Tivo has actually done so.

Tivo have received a lot of critical feedback about shutting down the service so such a small concession is far from being totally improbable.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> That would be 7-21 days then.


That depends on which channels you watch 



Pete77 said:


> Why do you say that.


From a business perspective I personally don't think it's worth the effort. All the low-hanging fruit S1 owners have already been picked and I can't see VM wanting to expend a lot of effort to try and persuade a few 100 at best (or even if a 1000!) laggard S1 owners - as a business their time is better spent at upgrading their existing customers or (even better) selling to new ones.

My personal feeling is VM are only doing the "upgrading" S1 owners thing _at all_ due to the insistence of TiVo Inc in the first place, and would rather have not bothered.

(For sure they made a few sales on the back of it; I didn't say it wasn't worth their while - they wouldn't have done it at all if there was *no* money in it - but that they might have _preferred _to have not bothered with it.)

(No evidence to back this up - just my experience as a Business Analyst)


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## Gavin (Jan 1, 2003)

spitfires said:


> My personal feeling is VM are only doing the "upgrading" S1 owners thing _at all_ due to the insistence of TiVo Inc in the first place, and would rather have not bothered.


Anyone know what the upgrade offer is? I looked and as a bottom end subscriber I can upgrade *IF* I upgrade to the top of the line service (M TV to XL TV) and I pay an upgrade fee. Lost interest at that point and didn't persue it with the telesales lot. To be honest we don;t use the VM box we use Freesat so it's probably a lot cause anyway but wontered if anyone had got any "discount" through being a S1 owner?

Anyone asked VM and know better?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Gavin said:


> Anyone know what the upgrade offer is? I looked and as a bottom end subscriber I can upgrade *IF* I upgrade to the top of the line service (M TV to XL TV) and I pay an upgrade fee. Lost interest at that point and didn't persue it with the telesales lot. To be honest we don;t use the VM box we use Freesat so it's probably a lot cause anyway but wontered if anyone had got any "discount" through being a S1 owner?


You are describing the existing offer that started in February.

However in "mid-May" (i.e. a few days time) Virgin will be launching a 500GB version of their Tivo available to subscribers on all existing levels of paying tv subscription package (i.e. all tv customers apart from the legacy free M package customers) for only a £49.95 upgrade fee plus £3 per month Tivo fee

You might find that offer a lot more compelling although as you appear to be a free M package customer you are still going to also have to pay an additional pay monthly fee on top of the £3 monthly Tivo fee to upgrade from M to the M+ package level.

See www.techradar.com/news/internet/virgin-media-to-offer-500gb-tivo-box-in-may-942026 for more information.


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## dvdfever (Jun 2, 2002)

I'm interested in continuing the EPG as I have little interest in getting the VM alternative because I don't have any pay channels now. However, I might've missed the question & answer on this forum previously, but why is the "lifetime sub" no longer valid, please? Is it because TiVo is now in the hands of a different company, i.e. Virgin?

Thanks.


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## Gavin (Jan 1, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> You might find that offer a lot more compelling although as you appear to be a free M package customer you are still going to also have to pay an additional pay monthly fee on top of the £3 monthly Tivo fee to upgrade from M to the M+ package level.


Thanks

To be honest £3 PCM plus "something" to go from M to M+ is probably too much to make me want to pay VM anything more. The Humax software is not a patch on Tivo but freesats cosing us nothing for the few HD channels we get and the TV we watch.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

dvdfever said:


> I might've missed the question & answer on this forum previously, but why is the "lifetime sub" no longer valid, please? Is it because TiVo is now in the hands of a different company, i.e. Virgin?


Yes in my opinion you have it right.

Namely Tivo sold the rights to use their brand name and software in the UK to Virgin and Virgin have demanded that Tivo is no longer supported for any other tv viewing platforms than its new Virgin Tivo box.

Obviously the Tivo S1 UK's support of Sky, Freeview and Freesat then had to be closed down as that was a Tivo that supported Virgin's main opposition and the S1's support of Virgin had to be closed down because that prevented you from paying Virgin again each month for something you thought you already had (i.e. a Lifetime subscription to Tivo).

The We Love Virgin crew will be along shortly to say I have no proof but why else do they think that Tivo was happy to go on loyally supporting the old S1 for all those years only to pull the plug on us when they had signed a contract with someone else who a UK exclusive use of the brand that included the right to tell them to pull the plug on supporting old legacy boxes that supported rival tv platforms.

Also history shows that Tivo is basically a decent company that treats its customers fairly while Virgin (nee NTL and gobbling up along the way Telewest) is another devious and dirty company just like Sky who will stop at absolutely nothing in their quest to become top tv dog.:down::down::down:


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

dvdfever said:


> why is the "lifetime sub" no longer valid


The Lifetime Subscription was valid for as long as TiVo decided to provide the service (i.e. not for the lifetime of the box, lifetime of the user, or any other thing - in particular it was a "Lifetime _Subscription_" not a "Lifetime _Service_"). TiVo could withdraw the Service at any time given 30 days notice.

TiVo kept the service running in the UK even though they stopped making new sales at the end of 2002, since they wanted to keep an active product in the European market. Now they have signed up VirginMedia there is no need for them to maintain the old S1 service any longer so they are stopping it (as they have a right to do). This fits with their stated corporate policy of focusing in the future on cable company tie-ups rather than direct retail sales.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> The We Love Virgin crew will be along shortly to say I have no proof but why else do they think that Tivo was happy to go on loyally supporting the old S1 for all those years only to pull the plug on us when they had signed a contract with someone else who a UK exclusive use of the brand that included the right to tell them to pull the plug on supporting old legacy boxes that supported rival tv platforms.


That's pretty hard to parse, even for a Pete sentence. But to answer what I think is a question in there - "because they felt that if a new Tivo was available to a significant proportion of the old installed base, they were morally in the clear in shutting down a loss making service which had to end sometime: if not now, when?".

Pete's version of Occam's Razor holds that which ever possible explanation reflects the more badly on the morals of a businessman, that must be the true one.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Pete's version of Occam's Razor holds that which ever possible explanation reflects the more badly on the morals of a businessman, that must be the true one.


And nine times out of ten Pete77 is proved right as businessman are by and large an entirely selfish money grubbing lot who, if it was legal, would in most cases cheerfully have their own mother in law put down once the kids had got too old to need looking after by her any more so that their inheritance was maximised and care home costs were minimised.

Or has the recent example of the banks in fact shown us that businessman are all decent god fearing people worried primarily about the welfare of their customers and worried only about making a profit after ensuring that that their customers all have a safe, high quality and reliable product to use.

Of course long before TCM and others focused only on their own personal financial welfare got their MBAs there did actually used to be businesses such as Volvo that just liked to make a product properly but TCM and others have since been along to point out that this is no way at all for a businessman to get utterly filthy rich and so all such quality and service rather than profit only focused business practices must be brought to an end.

Much the same has happened with the legal profession where no solicitor cares any more about justice and all of them only care about taking on clients whom they can bill out their services to at the highest possible hourly rates. Strangely enough most such clients tend to be businessmen who have been providing their customers with quite deliberately deficient services or products in order to selfishly maximise their profits in the short term........


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

nice story - love the twist at the end


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

So in short - "it was better in ye olden days, son"


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

mikerr said:


> So in short - "it was better in ye olden days, son"


The truth is that there is a need for a motivation by businesses to make a profit but that equally that needs to be tempered by a wish to make a decent product that does the job it is intended for effectively and reliably.

Since the fully unbridled capitalist system cannot be trusted to do that effectively on its own that is why there is a media and a Health and Safety Executive out there plus various pieces of legislation to try to encourage businesses in the right direction.

Unbridled communism is a bad thing and unbridled capitalism is a bad thing. Something somewhere in the middle (the so called Mixed Economy) is what most people actually seem to want.


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## bjay (Apr 1, 2005)

Spitfires wrote:
"The Lifetime Subscription was valid for as long as TiVo decided to provide the service (i.e. not for the lifetime of the box, lifetime of the user, or any other thing - in particular it was a "Lifetime Subscription" not a "Lifetime Service"). TiVo could withdraw the Service at any time given 30 days notice."

A point of information - actually if I go to the service/information page of my Tivo it actually says "Lifetime Service" - not subscription....

Cheers
BJay


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

I thought the S1 just said "5: Lifetime" ? (It's the S3+ which says "Product Lifetime Service"). But I could be wrong 

In any event your Contract says "Subscription" 


.


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## Furball (Dec 6, 2001)

Do we know yet what TiVo are planning at the end, are they just going to remove the EPG server from the end of the phone line, remove the number from the exchange, send a command to remove the nag screens and allow basic manual recordings, or be evil and brick the Series 1 

OK I dont actually think they will brick it and if they remove they just remove the service I presume the unit will function fairly normally until it starts too run low on guide data after about a week or so ??

Should we leave the TiVo connected to the phone right up till its last call 

Furball


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Easy method for them: they just remove the phone number from service,
the service is then dead for all intents and purposes (to unmodified boxes).

*whispers* and EPG data continues for network users.

LOL could happen - network has never been a supported method, and S1 data my be teed off the same backend database at tivo that VM uses?


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Hmmm interesting thought Mike!  I suspect they'll simply disable all the UK S1 serial numbers in their database so any attempt to download epg data will fail and the TiVo will go to status "Account closed".

The TiVo will then continue until it runs low on data and then start nagging you to get more data which, of course, you can't actually do! 


.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

p.s. I think it's probably safe to download the last ever (official) guide data on 31/5 but I personally will be disconnecting it straight after, so it doesn't try to download on the 1/6.

Reason being I think "Account closed" tries to force you to do a guided setup (?) and is generally more brick-like than simply running out of guide data ?


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## milmead (May 4, 2011)

I have a TIVO that I have thoroughly enjoyed for about 12 years. Now it is coming to an end I thought I had better research the alternatives - which all appear to be much more costly and as a pensioner this means NO alternative. I have tried to understand about your EPOs but at a loss. Can someone help us old folks by putting up a really easy explanation of how we might be able to use our TIVOs after May? I am very willing to pay for any help but would like to know what are the chances of there being something up and running by then?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

milmead said:


> I have a TIVO that I have thoroughly enjoyed for about 12 years. Now it is coming to an end I thought I had better research the alternatives - which all appear to be much more costly and as a pensioner this means NO alternative. I have tried to understand about your EPOs but at a loss. Can someone help us old folks by putting up a really easy explanation of how we might be able to use our TIVOs after May? I am very willing to pay for any help but would like to know what are the chances of there being something up and running by then?


The current intentions are that you will just need to enter a new phone number in the Dial Prefix option under the Phone menu in the Tivo's preferences setup and then everything else will continue to work as before.

No need to open up the Tivo, change the hard drive or anything else.

The current intention is to have a replacement service in place on June 1st if Tivo stick to that date for cutting off the service and it does not slip back (due to the ongoing and unfinished conversion to the new Virgin Tivo of all S1 Tivo customers willing to be converted). Those designing the replacement service do not feel it is fair to heavily promote the replacement service until such time as Tivo actually go ahead with their threat to leave us without an EPG service.

See www.tivoland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=421&start=60 for more discussion on this matter.


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## djqster (Oct 22, 2010)

spitfires said:


> Reason being I think "Account closed" tries to force you to do a guided setup (?) and is generally more brick-like than simply running out of guide data ?


You don't need to do a guided setup, but with an account closed your TiVo will ignore whatever guide data it has and immediately go into sulk mode and not let you record anything.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

djqster said:


> sulk mode



That was it - I knew it was a bad idea for some reason!


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> The truth is that there is a need for a motivation by businesses to make a profit but that equally that needs to be tempered by a wish to make a decent product that does the job it is intended for effectively and reliably.


Every business I've ever had anything to do with has known perfectly well that in order to make a profit you have to make a product that people will buy because it is good value, recommend to their friends because they like it and it works well, and repeat purchase themselves because they were pleased with it. Any other strategy isn't a long term one. I haven't got an MBA, but I'm pretty sure they teach you that.


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

spitfires said:


> p.s. I think it's probably safe to download the last ever (official) guide data on 31/5 but I personally will be disconnecting it straight after, so it doesn't try to download on the 1/6.
> 
> Reason being I think "Account closed" tries to force you to do a guided setup (?) and is generally more brick-like than simply running out of guide data ?


I guess the easiest way to stop TiVo from connecting on the 1st June is to disconnect either the network or phone cables from router/phone socket.


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## a_tivo_noob (Jan 2, 2004)

Basic question (and after scouring tivoland.com, still not 100% sure of the answer).

I've an old box that is just being stored (non-lifetime and no monthly subscription)

Can I ever get tihs to work with the Alt EPG, and if so, do i need to do anything prior to 1st June? 

Apologies for basic / stupid question!


(meanwhile i've gathered that it would be wise to disconnect my working lifetime box on the 31st May!)


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

a_tivo_noob said:


> Can I ever get tihs to work with the Alt EPG,


Yes.



a_tivo_noob said:


> do i need to do anything prior to 1st June?


No.

.


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## drgeoff (Nov 10, 2005)

a_tivo_noob said:


> Basic question (and after scouring tivoland.com, still not 100% sure of the answer).
> 
> I've an old box that is just being stored (non-lifetime and no monthly subscription)
> 
> ...


If your old box has never been used it will have the original v1.5 software. I was in that situation with a second TiVo and asked on the tivoland forum where the general advice was that, if not planning to drop in a new hard disk preconfigured for the ALT-EPG, it would be a good idea to get the V2.5.5 software on the original disk. I did that yesterday - see my second post in the tivoland thread "Prepping a new old Tivo ....".

drgeoff


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

velocitysurfer1 said:


> I guess the easiest way to stop TiVo from connecting on the 1st June is to disconnect either the network or phone cables from router/phone socket.


Even when a Tivo is in Account Closed mode it can still dial in to the servers to check its account status but instead of doing so daily it will only do so weekly or something or also immediately if forced to do a manual connect through the menus.

So far as I can see after June 1st people will be adding a dial prefix code through the menus that will cause the Tvo to dial up to the new replacement EPG Tivo servers if they still use the Tivo modem and those servers will consider all possible Tivo service number ranges issued for UK machines to be in Lifetime Subscription mode. Therefore whether or not Tivo has previously tried to mark down your machine as Account Closed on its database and therefore on the Tivo itself will not matter as this is not an irreversible step.

For those connecting via a Cachecard or Turbonet card they will need to change or edit one of their existing files via Telnet or some automated program provided by the new EPG project in order to alter the IP address and/or domain name of the servers that the box needs to contact. Again if the box was in Account Closed mode it ought to be capable of being made Open again and depending on the level of sophistication of the emulation proposed by Dave and others they ought to still be able to upgrade any older Tivo software versions to the current version then in use.

Or have I missed something?


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

I guess the issue could be the version of the software that is on the TiVo. If it's 2.5.5 then there shouldn't be an issue. If it's 1.5 then whilst you would get the guide data you would never get the upgrade to 2.5.5 (I assume), therefore it would be better to let the TiVo do the update prior to June 1st.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

velocitysurfer1 said:


> I guess the issue could be the version of the software that is on the TiVo. If it's 2.5.5 then there shouldn't be an issue. If it's 1.5 then whilst you would get the guide data you would never get the upgrade to 2.5.5 (I assume), therefore it would be better to let the TiVo do the update prior to June 1st.


I agree that is a possible danger although it all rather depends on whether or not the new non Tivo server can spool out a software update to the boxes. In theory though there seems no reason why the new servers could not offer such a service especially if the new project intends to say upgrade everyone from the existing software version for the UK to the final version 3 software provided in the USA on S1 machines but suitably modified to provide a kernel that can also support large hard disk sizes.


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## velocitysurfer1 (Sep 6, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I agree that is a possible danger although it all rather depends on whether or not the new non Tivo server can spool out a software update to the boxes. In theory though there seems no reason why the new servers could not offer such a service especially if the new project intends to say upgrade everyone from the existing software version for the UK to the final version 3 software provided in the USA on S1 machines but suitably modified to provide a kernel that can also support large hard disk sizes.


Agreed.

As we probably won't know the full capabilities of the New project until after June 1st then, it is wiser to upgrade now - I know that that is what I'd do.


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

Sorry, I don't know about any of the other guy's, but I just don't have the time to scour both forums for questions relating to the new project. I suggest you might be better off asking all questions relating to the AltEPG in the AltEPG forum!

I haven't considered whether we can push a 2.5.5 update to someone with 1.5 and with the current time constraints I suspect the workload is not worth it because even if we found the time to address this possibility, I doubt there will be many units out there, they will literally be ones that someone has pulled out of a cupboard.

A re-image of the AltEPG image is by far the simplest option.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> if the new project intends to say upgrade everyone from the existing software version for the UK to the final version 3 software provided in the USA on S1 machines


What makes you think the "alternative epg service" is going to upgrade your software to version 3!!  Wishful thinking there 

The clue is the "_epg_" bit in "alternative epg service" - nothing about new functions/software/etc.!

For those rare (possibly the ONLY one!) cases where someone is still on 1.5 then you will be better off re-imaging. As Dave intimates, it's not possible (nor worthwhile) to cater for absolutely every possible combination in the time available!

.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

spitfires said:


> What makes you think the "alternative epg service" is going to upgrade your software to version 3!!  Wishful thinking there .


I thought there was all this talk of how the new self provided Tivo service was going to be better than our existing service. I don't see how that will actually be possible without an enhanced software version.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

One step at a time. The priority, as I'm sure you'll agree, is a working replacement epg for 1st June. 

Enhancements are for later. Let's manage expectations and not get everyone expecting swanky version 3 software and then being disappointed when all they end up with on 1st June is a (still) working TiVo !


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## healeydave (Jun 4, 2003)

The US Version 3.0 that I showed screen shots of initially when we first got the AltEPG server up and running is in fact virtually no different to our 2.5.5, apart from a different colour scheme and Phillips or Sony branding. 
There are other minor differences, but nothing significant.
In fact it carries enough negatives that I can see no reason to use it, including NTSC based menus, and missing menus since the US had no scary connections etc.

Small improvements are still possible with 2.5.5. For example when running through guided setup now, on the AltEPG system, you no longer have to wait for complete scan of the analog frequency range, it skips straight past it.

We have not regionalised the channel selection, so whilst the user has a few more channels to turn off in customise channels, it does allows users to select channels out of their region.

You can now choose a Sky SD or Sky HD lineup, controlling whether you want the flipped channels (e.g. 106 to be referenced as Sky1HD or Sky1SD).


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Pete77 said:


> Virgin have demanded that Tivo is no longer supported for any other tv viewing platforms than its new Virgin Tivo box.


And your evidence for this is....?

You are entitled to your opinions but shouldn't be quoting them as fact.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

spitfires said:


> What makes you think the "alternative epg service" is going to upgrade your software to version 3!!  Wishful thinking there


Ignoring the wishful thinking, wouldn't that also be more than a little dodgy? It's one thing to set up an alternative to a service that is no longer provided, very different to install proprietary copyrighted software on equipment that is not authorised to use it. TiVo, Inc. may be pulling the plug on the UK service but they still own the code, which is very much active on US boxes.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

spitfires said:


> The Lifetime Subscription was valid for as long as TiVo decided to provide the service (i.e. not for the lifetime of the box, . . . .


We've been round this before. The way the contract defined that service then they will continue to be providing it after June 1st, just arbitrarily not for S1 users. And that is TiVo reneging on a contract made with full knowledge of the unfair terms and conditions regs. And those regs throw that 30 day change clause well out of the window.

The issue isn't whether TiVo are acting badly but the impracticality of bringing them to book.


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## khadland (Aug 29, 2002)

Anyone know what the deal is with http://www.altepg.com/? It seems to suggest that you need to register & provide a service number for the AltEPG, but I thought it was going to be a free service for anything that managed to connect to it so service numbers etc were history.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Steve_K said:


> ...the unfair terms and conditions regs. And those regs throw that 30 day change clause well out of the window.


Please can you tell me which statute it is that deems the 30 day termination clause unfair? And why?

If what you say is correct then it has wide-reaching implications for *all* service contracts made between businesses and consumers  and is something I would like to research further.


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## steveroe (Oct 29, 2002)

khadland said:


> Anyone know what the deal is with http://www.altepg.com/? It seems to suggest that you need to register & provide a service number for the AltEPG, but I thought it was going to be a free service for anything that managed to connect to it so service numbers etc were history.


At the moment it's taking registrations for Alpha testing of the replacement service.

I don't know if you will need to be registered in advance to use the full service when it launches.

The best place for questions about AltEPG is on tivoland.com/forum


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

spitfires said:


> Please can you tell me which statute it is that deems the 30 day termination clause unfair? And why?
> 
> If what you say is correct then it has wide-reaching implications for *all* service contracts made between businesses and consumers  and is something I would like to research further.


Try the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. However _this link_ is the key OFT guidance.

eg


> . . A standard term is unfair 'if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer' Regulation 5(1).
> Unfair terms are not enforceable against the consumer. . . .


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Thanks for that - I'll have a read. Not sure how that will work against the fact that we agreed to bound by US California law though.



Edit:
An interesting read, however I can't see anything in there which would make the 30 day termination clause unfair. Quite the opposite actually since the agreement states that TiVo can cancel at 30 days notice but that the consumer can cancel with zero notice!

Perhaps you are talking about the "Changes to your TiVo Service" clause? I'm not - I'm talking about TiVo's right to cancel the service in toto with 30 days notice. Seems fair to me.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

spitfires said:


> Thanks for that - I'll have a read. Not sure how that will work against the fact that we agreed to bound by US California law though.


A restrictive choice of jurisdiction is expressly prohibited by EU legislation - people should be given the ability to sue in their local courts. Although given that California has some of the most consumer-friendly legislation of any US state it is arguable whether that is a good thing! Maybe those wanting to sue should find a willing 'no win no fee' lawyer in the Santa Clara area?

As I said in the other thread, does this legislation work both ways? Is it unreasonable for a company to offer a 'lifetime' service, thus making the obligation on their part unworkable?


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

spitfires said:


> . . .I'm talking about TiVo's right to cancel the service in toto with 30 days notice. Seems fair to me.


But the service is defined as provision of programme data which they are continuing to supply. They forgot to define the service as provision to S1 machines. Silly Billies

Presumably you'd have thought it fair for TiVo to cancel the service in January 2001.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

If TiVo had cancelled the service in 2001, the we'd have had a claim under the Sale of Goods Act, as a serviceless TiVo is clearly not fit for the purpose as described when you bought it. 

The Sale of Goods Act recognises the concept that the damages claimed can and should be moderated by the value of the goods/services actually recieved, something which seems beyond some folks here.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

Steve_K said:


> But the service is defined as provision of programme data which they are continuing to supply. They forgot to define the service as provision to S1 machines.


Why should they when the contract we agreed to was only applicable to S1 machines? You are challenging the "Product Lifetime Subscription", how can that possibly apply to anything other than the TiVo it was supplied with?


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

My reading of it at the time was they couldn't just discontinue the service if they later wanted to market a later model. In effect that's what they're doing now.

And TCM it isn't the Sale of Goods act that any claim arises from. Yes that would have a limitation by value of goods received but this is a normal contract and TiVo can't arbitrarily limit their liability to only the Sale of Goods act.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Trinitron said:


> A restrictive choice of jurisdiction is expressly prohibited by EU legislation


Yes I've just spotted that - I didn't know that before. Useful to remember 

Edit: Actually I've just noticed that the original paper agreement that came with the TiVo is specifically "governed according to the laws of England and Wales", so they probably wouldn't be permitted to move it to California anyway.



Steve_K said:


> Presumably you'd have thought it fair for TiVo to cancel the service in January 2001.


"Fair" - ethically no but contractually yes. "Permitted" - yes, because of that 30 day termination clause. Which is the very reason I didn't take out a LS when I bought my Tivo.

Some people [1] seem to want to take an individual clause out of the contract where it is beneficial for them. Now, it is true that all clauses in a contract "stand in isolation" unless the striking out of some other clause makes them unworkable. However... The 30-day termination clause is workable in all cases (i.e. whether or not the "change of service" clause is struck out) and stands in isolation.

Therefore... TiVo Inc. could terminate the service for no reason given 30 days notice. This clause is both fair and reasonable. (All the more so since in the event they gave a lot more than 30 days).

There is nothing to stop a company terminating a service even though it still provides a similar service - otherwise mobile phone companies could not stop a particular tariff when they wanted to offer a new one.

[1] (not specifically anyone in this thread)


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

spitfires said:


> Therefore... TiVo Inc. could terminate the service for no reason given 30 days notice. This clause is both fair and reasonable. (All the more so since in the event they gave a lot more than 30 days).
> 
> There is nothing to stop a company terminating a service even though it still provides a similar service - otherwise mobile phone companies could not stop a particular tariff when they wanted to offer a new one.


Phone companies don't offer 'lifetime' contracts though. That's the sticking point here and why I queried the possible validity of such an offer. I guess ultimately that could be something for a person in a wooly wig to decide on. 

Another 'reasonable' aspect of the termination argument is that TiVo also give customers the option to withdraw from the service for any or no reason - it says without notice, but also says that unused subscriptions will not be refunded, which itself could be interpreted as unreasonable.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

I guess we can argue these issues till June 1st 2021

What might matter more is even if I'm right, is there a practical way to pursue that rightness. There won't be if I post up too much of my thoughts for TiVo UK to read so am going to be stmmm for a while.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I increasingly hope that some of the people who genuinely appear to believe they have been hard done by getting 10 years of service for £199 do actually try to sue, as clearly only a judge will convince them that they are wrong. 

I am also curious about what point in time they would not have felt hard done by - 15 years? 20?


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## DX30 (May 22, 2005)

TCM2007 said:


> I am also curious about what point in time they would not have felt hard done by - 15 years? 20?


When I bought my TiVo's my understanding was the provision of service was open ended for the lifetime of the TiVo unit. I therefore personally would feel hard done by termination of the service at any point I still have a working TiVo.

I think it is down to the use of the world "lifetime". If I had been sold a "10 year service" for £199 I would have been very happy with that. Or even a "5 year service" for £199.

If TiVo didn't intend to offer an open-ended commitment they shouldn't have described it a "lifetime", it is too open to being misinterpreted.

I'm not one of those that wants to sue - I'm sure TiVo will have acted within the law. I don't however feel TiVo have acted well here.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

IMHO

Tivos downfall was the product and service was just too good, and for whatever reason poorly marketed.

An electronic hi tec product introduced last century should, by almost any yardstick, have been totally obsolete by now.

And we wouldn't be having this problem.


Alek


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

DX30 said:


> When I bought my TiVo's my understanding was the provision of service was open ended for the lifetime of the TiVo unit. I therefore personally would feel hard done by termination of the service at any point I still have a working TiVo.
> 
> I think it is down to the use of the world "lifetime". If I had been sold a "10 year service" for £199 I would have been very happy with that. Or even a "5 year service" for £199.


Yes, I would concur with those thoughts. I've had over 8 years service for my £199, seems churlish to try and eke out a couple of quid just for the principle. With hindsight the "lifetime guarantee" should have been for something like 'the lifetime of the DVR or 5 years, whichever is the shorter'.

One of TiVo's dilemmas here is that they can't compensate S1 subscribers equally. Cable users were offered a generous discount off a replacement box, but they have done nothing for those outside the Virgin service area.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Trinitron said:


> One of TiVo's dilemmas here is that they can't compensate S1 subscribers equally. Cable users were offered a generous discount off a replacement box, but they have done nothing for those outside the Virgin service area.


Actually no price break for TiVo owners - we just got priority of install of the VM TiVo a few months before most.

They're also fundamentally different:

- with the Thomson S1 you paid, and had a contract with TiVo
- with the VM TiVo - you pay Virgin Media, and have a contract with them - NOT with TiVo


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Trinitron said:


> One of TiVo's dilemmas here is that they can't compensate S1 subscribers equally.


Quite and also let's not forget the corollary which is if they did compensate lifers then all us TAMs (tenner a month) will rightly feel aggrieved and also demand compensation!


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

mikerr said:


> Actually no price break for TiVo owners - we just got priority of install of the VM TiVo a few months before most.
> 
> They're also fundamentally different:
> 
> ...


Ah, I thought they were offering a £50 discount as well. I know the deal included the requirement to take Virgin's XL package, but it was still an offer nevertheless.


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## Trinitron (Jan 20, 2003)

spitfires said:


> Quite and also let's not forget the corollary which is if they did compensate lifers then all us TAMs (tenner a month) will rightly feel aggrieved and also demand compensation!


Yes, but you are definitely in the same bracket as the mobile phone users you quoted earlier. Your subscription had no minimum term or guarantees from either side, so there is no potential breach of contract as you got exactly what you paid for.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

^ True but that wouldn't stop me feeling aggrieved, in the same way as lifers who have had 120 months' worth of service for £199 (i.e. £1.66 per month) seem to feel 'hard done by'


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

spitfires said:


> Quite and also let's not forget the corollary which is if they did compensate lifers then all us TAMs (tenner a month) will rightly feel aggrieved and also demand compensation!


There's an argument you can claim for the box but it's a fraught one

As DX wrote, if I'd been told up front it was 10 years I'd have been well happy. *IF*

Back on topic (of this thread) does anyone actually know what the degree of brickness will be come June 1st? I've seen the guesses.


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## alek (May 22, 2008)

Steve_K said:


> what the degree of brickness will be come June 1st?


My wife has been using one for years with no subscription. It's still a lot better than a vhs recorder was.

Alek


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

yes if you disable the nag screen (about "run out of guide data" - search this forum for "no nag") then it becomes a manual video recorder.


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## Steve_K (May 5, 2001)

far better than a brick then


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

I seem to recall that a Tivo rep came on here 5 or more years ago and promised that if the service ended they wouldn't brick the machines. I may have dreamt that...


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

DX30 said:


> When I bought my TiVo's my understanding was the provision of service was open ended for the lifetime of the TiVo unit. I therefore personally would feel hard done by termination of the service at any point I still have a working TiVo.
> 
> I think it is down to the use of the world "lifetime". If I had been sold a "10 year service" for £199 I would have been very happy with that. Or even a "5 year service" for £199.
> 
> ...


Where thye should have been clearer in the wording is that it should have said "No payments for the Lifetime of the box", as that obviusly what they meant (Obviously, because promising service forever and ever is clearly an impossible thing to guarantee. The mother of all "unreasonable contract terms").

If you look in the contract, Lifetime is only mentioned in the most cursory way, and mostly in terms of grandfathering. There's no real attempt to define what it means beyond what happens when the hard disk fails.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I seem to recall that a Tivo rep came on here 5 or more years ago and promised that if the service ended they wouldn't brick the machines. I may have dreamt that...


Someone needs to read through all the posts in the Tivo UK section by TivoPony if they want to try and find such a commitment.


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## spitfires (Dec 19, 2006)

Seeing as



Pete77 said:


> [ I ] have the capability to do analysis and research and are not just lab scientists wearing white coats


while the rest of us are supposedly incompetent, it would be best if _you _did this.

.


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