# HD TiVo Series 3 @ CES



## Morocco Mole (Jul 12, 2002)

Posted on www.pvrblog.com and tivolovers.com

check it out...


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## joysbox (Jun 27, 2003)

...dear santa....
Yes, you were just here, but I need to ask you for one of these, please!
j


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## ellinj (Feb 26, 2002)

Poor Megazone, he should have resized his pictures before uploading. His site is getting slammed.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)




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## DickK (Oct 11, 2004)

<applause>


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

_"Don't be spiteful just because you don't have one.

Don't be spiteful just because you don't have one.

Don't be spiteful just because you don't have one.

Don't be spiteful just be-.....

IT LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE TIPPED OVER A TOASTER!!!.....

Ooops.

Sorry."_


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## markandjenn (Sep 21, 2003)

Color me green with envy. 

Now for a firm release date and a price.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

TiVoPhish provided some nicely resized versions of mz's photos :up:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3648556&&#post3648556


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Any idea why it's lacking A/V *in*puts?

Will never be able to work with a separate satellite tuner, for example, or a standard cable box outputting thru RCA lines?

Also, the NTSC tuner...

What do you think? OTA only, or cable ready? (It does have a coax cable input.)


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Nice.. I assume the pics are of what is essentially the actual product??

Now, we need to know when this will come out.


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## Glued2TiVo (Jan 1, 2005)

Im liking the new User Inerface. Im also digging that front panel thing where it tells you what's recording. Nice touches. Oh and the remote! How cool did that look? They actually made the big circle (arrows) seperate buttons! Good for them!


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## JoeBarbs (Dec 1, 2003)

Should we speculate on pricing?

My guess is $799 after $200MIR.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

$300


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

HDTiVo said:


> $300


Now THAT's wishful thinking... the Rumor thread and the pictures thread said someone at the show heard it "slip" that price would be in the $500-$800 neighborhood.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

gastrof said:


> Any idea why it's lacking A/V *in*puts?
> 
> Will never be able to work with a separate satellite tuner, for example, or a standard cable box outputting thru RCA lines?
> 
> ...


Because you can buy that right now for $49.. why waste money redeveloping analog into an HD box..? Like people are going to pay a preimium over the $49 analog box for a high end HD TiVo and hook it up to their analog cable or analog sat tv?


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## phil385 (Jan 5, 2006)

Wow, I really really like it! I have been waiting for this for a long time. Can anyone tell I am pumped up?

ps: First Post!


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Adam1115 said:


> Because you can buy that right now for $49.. why waste money redeveloping analog into an HD box..? Like people are going to pay a preimium over the $49 analog box for a high end HD TiVo and hook it up to their analog cable or analog sat tv?


they might for analog cable for dual tuners and large drive with ability to add external drive. Plus no one has seen or put it through the paces of doing HME or TTG etc.. which may be much zippier.

as for sat. yes there I agree why worry about a composite input just for that - buy a series 2 and lobby the Sat company and FCC to get 3rd party access to the digital sat signal.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

JoeBarbs said:


> Should we speculate on pricing?
> 
> My guess is $799 after $200MIR.


What's the current HD DTV model going for? Are the specs similar? I know we've got ethernet and SATA and a front panel display. Hmmm...

At $400, I'd buy two without a second thought. Anything more than that and I'd buy one.

Of course the choice will be much harder if the Comcast/TiVo unit comes out around the same time... if my choices are $600 upfront or $15/mo to rent from Comcast, I'd probably just rent and deal with whatever limitations there are versus the stand alone model.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

davezatz said:


> Of course the choice will be much harder if the Comcast/TiVo unit comes out around the same time... if my choices are $600 upfront or $15/mo to rent from Comcast, I'd probably just rent and deal with whatever limitations there are versus the stand alone model.


That's been part of the problem with SA boxes all along... and when you get up over $400 it's a harder sell. I can't speak to Comcast, but here in the tristate area they are constantly running promotions so you don't pay any leasing fees for the first year for the boxes, or if you get the primo package, you pay nothing additional for even their best box. People who don't know TiVo don't know what they're missing, so are less likely to shell out $300, let alone $500, $600, $800, which is the biggest part of the battle.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

Awesome, now I can dump DTV when that comes out!


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

w00t!


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## LostTivo (Nov 1, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> Now THAT's wishful thinking... the Rumor thread and the pictures thread said someone at the show heard it "slip" that price would be in the $500-$800 neighborhood.


Wow, $800 is a lot of dough.

Figure I can get the nice dual tuner HD Motorola box (with season pass) from my cable comp for $13.95/month. That means the cost of the Tivo box would cover the cost of renting the cable box for 4.75 years. And that doesn't take into account the Tivo service fee!!!


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## lordargent (Nov 12, 2002)

TiVoPhish said:


> People who don't know TiVo don't know what they're missing, so are less likely to shell out $300, let alone $500, $600, $800, which is the biggest part of the battle.


Don't forget the lifetime sub fee. What's that up to now anyway? It was around 250 when I got my SA.

In any event, if this is coming out anytime soon (next two quarters). And even if it's in the 800 range, I'll be getting one. I've been setting aside the money for it ever since Tivo Ponys original post about it.


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## rog (Jan 12, 2005)

Yay!!! :up:


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

TiVoPhish said:


> That's been part of the problem with SA boxes all along... and when you get up over $400 it's a harder sell.


You have a good point. However, I think that intitially those of us who will gladly shell out $800 for an HD Tivo will be the ones driving sales. Considering how many very expensive HDTV displays have been sold in the last couple of years the numbers should be pretty good. The HDTV snowball is forming and in the next 2-3 years will get pretty big. This unit should bring some new people over to Tivo out of curiosity and the strong feature set. This box will certainly push me over the edge when it comes out and I will buy not only a Series 3 but some beautiful huge flat screen as well since I don't currently have one.

Features I like:

The multiple types of tuners is a great idea and useful. I have seen digital cable here in Austin on Time Warner and honestly it ain't all that great sometimes. Often the ATSC picture is superior. Digital cable sometimes is very compressed looking.

Ethernet - finally and totally necessary with the much heavier file sizes for HD.

HDMI - Boo . . . Yah

External storage - they have been paying attention.

Any word on what HD resolutions it will offer? 1080i I hope?
I wonder what the monthly/lifetime service charges will be? Same or higher?


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

Looks great...I even like the small detail touches like adding an aspect button on the remote. MPEG4 playback is great....I also hope that it supports various MPEG4 formats and not just one specific type....I'm assuming the mpeg4 playback will be available for our PC2Tivo transfers, not just the Tivo Ordered content.
I wonder how many hours of HDTV it can record. Guess they'll be various models.

Now, I wonder how many people will hold off on a current Tivo purchase until the Series3 comes out. There have been quite a few companies that have made early product announcements, then hurt their current sales by not delivering it in a timely manner. Hoping for the best. Still trying to hold off on getting the Comcast HD DVR.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Welshdog said:


> You have a good point. However, I think that intitially those of us who will gladly shell out $800 for an HD Tivo will be the ones driving sales.


You would hope so, because TiVo has already lost some of those people as they waited for HD TiVo and couldn't wait anymore... I'm one of them (though not totally "lost"). I've got an SA8300HD coming tomorrow and will have X months to fall in love with it until HD TiVo comes out... that's a big risk, especially since I'm paying no additional leasing fee. Even if I were, it would take 5 years to pay for a $600 HD TiVo (not including subscription) and what's the typical life-span of equipment anyway? You don't expect your HD TiVo will get more than 5 years of life, realisitically.



Welshdog said:


> Considering how many very expensive HDTV displays have been sold in the last couple of years the numbers should be pretty good.


Big screens are expensive. Smaller tubes are not expensive AT ALL. We were just looking at them tonight and saw HD TVs in the 26" to 32" range from $249 to $799 and everywhere in between (median price around $579 I'd guess) -- that's not much more than what you were paying for a 27" SD Tube 10 years ago.



Welshdog said:


> The HDTV snowball is forming and in the next 2-3 years will get pretty big. This unit should bring some new people over to Tivo out of curiosity and the strong feature set. This box will certainly push me over the edge when it comes out and I will buy not only a Series 3 but some beautiful huge flat screen as well since I don't currently have one.


HOPE you are right... truly. And trust me, the HD TiVo is on my "wishlist" -- just remember the people who don't know better and get whatever their cable company gives them, and they ALL offer DVRs now... even if sucky ones... if you don't know the difference, you won't pay out $600 + subscription fee for theoretically better.



Welshdog said:


> Features I like:
> 
> The multiple types of tuners is a great idea and useful. I have seen digital cable here in Austin on Time Warner and honestly it ain't all that great sometimes. Often the ATSC picture is superior. Digital cable sometimes is very compressed looking.


Like the option... me personally would probably never use it... but I'm sure die-hard AV guys are gonna.



Welshdog said:


> Ethernet - finally and totally necessary with the much heavier file sizes for HD.


Get's my approval too!



Welshdog said:


> HDMI - Boo . . . Yah
> 
> External storage - they have been paying attention.


HDMI - neutral
External storage - I agree with you - though the box I'm getting offers that too. Considering their competition is doing it, I really think they had no choice.



Welshdog said:


> Any word on what HD resolutions it will offer? 1080i I hope?
> I wonder what the monthly/lifetime service charges will be? Same or higher?


1081i is what I read.

I would imagine the subscriptions will stay the same as any other TiVo current price... HD won't matter, neither dual tuner... it's the pushed content and guide data we pay for.


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## raianoat (Jan 27, 2004)

MegaZone let me restribute his pictures on my site:

http://www.tivoblog.com/archives/2006/01/05/tivo-pictures-from-ces-taken-by-megazone/


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER (Dec 9, 2001)

lordargent said:


> ...I've been setting aside the money for it ever since Tivo Ponys original post about it.


I'm saving my milk money starting today


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

They can have my first born if I can have the one they had on the stand today


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## jcblack (Jul 26, 2001)

I'll be glad to be an early adopter. Give me the first one off the line!!! This is what I've been waiting for. If the price isn't too high I'll get in line for it now. $800 is too high me, especially with lifetime being another $250. Maybe $700 if it includes lifetime.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

jcblack said:


> I'll be glad to be an early adopter. Give me the first one off the line!!! This is what I've been waiting for. If the price isn't too high I'll get in line for it now. $800 is too high me, especially with lifetime being another $250. Maybe $700 if it includes lifetime.


You see if it was around today I'd pay the $800 in a minute. $800 only becomes dificult when it's no longer the only TiVo kid on the block. Think about how many people paid $999 for the DirecTV HD Tivo when that came out. Lots will pay early but not so much later. Q3 this year will be to late to attract really premium prices.


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## Sepia (Jan 5, 2002)

TiVoPhish said:


> 1081i is what I read.
> 
> I would imagine the subscriptions will stay the same as any other TiVo current price... HD won't matter, neither dual tuner... it's the pushed content and guide data we pay for.


That would make no sense. TiVo should simply output the stream unmollested, or allow you to convert to 1080i/720p if you so need. That's what all the Motorolla/Sci-Atlanta/Moxi boxes do.

I always keep my stream at Direct out, so if I am watching ABC, my DVR outputs 720p and my TV handles the rest, and if I am watching NBC, my DVR outputs 1080i and my TV handles the rest.

If you have a 1080p TV, it would make no sense for TiVo to convert a 720p broadcast to 1080i.

Btw, HOLLY MOLLY this box is exactly what I've been waiting for, for YEARS!!!! As soon as it's out, I don't care about the price, I will sell stuff if I need to, but I will get my hands on one! I will immediately ditch my Moxi and 8000-HD boxes that I've been renting, and be back with the nice TiVo interface I grew to love (I was a TiVo owner since they first came out at 14 hour for $500).

TiVo, you finally did it right!

- Sepia


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## ExCal (Aug 11, 2005)

Back when the series 2 boxes came out Tivo offered us (very) early adopters the opportunity to transfer our lifetime sub to the new box as long as we bought the hardware. Any chance for another offer like that?


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## adavidw (Feb 23, 2000)

Welshdog said:


> I have seen digital cable here in Austin on Time Warner and honestly it ain't all that great sometimes. Often the ATSC picture is superior.


I would hope the ATSC picture is always superior. Perhaps you mean NTSC?


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

Sepia said:


> That would make no sense. TiVo should simply output the stream unmollested, or allow you to convert to 1080i/720p if you so need. That's what all the Motorolla/Sci-Atlanta/Moxi boxes do.
> 
> I always keep my stream at Direct out, so if I am watching ABC, my DVR outputs 720p and my TV handles the rest, and if I am watching NBC, my DVR outputs 1080i and my TV handles the rest.
> 
> ...


I might have misread the question... but I answered 1080i as maximum -- and I could be wrong on that... only saying it's what I read  -- Read below:



Megazone said:


> There is also an output indicator that indicates if the unit is outputting in 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i - and it can be set to any of those. It can also be set to pass-through, so it will send the shows to the TV in whatever format they were received.
> source: http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html


Sorry about the confusion!


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

Sepia said:


> HOLLY MOLLY this box is exactly what I've been waiting for, for YEARS!!!! As soon as it's out, I don't care about the price, I will sell stuff if I need to, but I will get my hands on one!


I'm just guessing, but... You're not a poker player, are ya?


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## mikepatt (Feb 11, 2004)

I cant post a link, I don't have permission, but check out the article on IGN d_o_t c_o_m regarding the new units.

It says that current subscribers with the current HDTivos will get the new units FREE. That can't be right, can it?


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## ADent (Jan 7, 2000)

There WAS a deal on S2 w/lifetime for S1 subs. It was not long after they came out and S2 boxes were still $349, no HMO (which turned out to be an extra $99 when it came out).

Lasted from 2/9/03 to 3/10/03.

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?threadid=100358

There was (is?) a seperate option for S1 subs who purhcased lifetime before 1/20/2000.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

mikepatt said:


> I cant post a link, I don't have permission, but check out the article on IGN d_o_t c_o_m regarding the new units.
> 
> It says that current subscribers with the current HDTivos will get the new units FREE. That can't be right, can it?


Not HD Tivos though... they will get DTV's HR20 unit for free. And that's only going to be offered to the first guinea-pigs.

At least that's how it read to me.


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## abobrow (Jul 8, 2002)

But I want it now!! I saw somewhere it said mid- to late 06. Please don't let this take all year. We just got a 50-inch plasma and do not want to have to get Comcast's dvr.


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## neekoh (Jan 2, 2005)

i expect this to come out by October, in time for strong marketing around the holidays. TiVo's gotta come out with the 'consumer' model. Will they keep supporting Series 2 TiVo's for those of us who don't upgrade right away?


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

ellinj said:


> Poor Megazone, he should have resized his pictures before uploading. His site is getting slammed.


I never expected to be the first, let alone only, person to post about the Series3.  If I thought more than a couple of people would be looking at them, I wouldn't have just dumped the raw 5 mega pixel photos on my server. ;-)


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> Nice.. I assume the pics are of what is essentially the actual product??


Yep, that should be the final design.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

JoeBarbs said:


> Should we speculate on pricing?
> 
> My guess is $799 after $200MIR.


Given that the existing HR10-250 is $599 and the Sony DHG-HDD250 is $499, my guess for MSRP is $599.

Since the hardware is very close to what's in the Sony box, $499 wouldn't surprise me (and would be a fantastic price point).

Above $599 and Tivo will really limit sales.

I'd probably buy two at $499, one if more.

Can't wait until these comes out and I can say goodbye to DirecTV. Doing HD on the Sony now - much rather have a Series 3.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

gastrof said:


> Any idea why it's lacking A/V *in*puts?
> 
> Will never be able to work with a separate satellite tuner, for example, or a standard cable box outputting thru RCA lines?


Actually I answered this in my first post in TiVoLovers about the S3 - the system does not support external tuners at all. No satellite, not cable box. It supports digital and analog cable, and ATSC and NTSC OTA channels.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

LostTivo said:


> Wow, $800 is a lot of dough.
> 
> Figure I can get the nice dual tuner HD Motorola box (with season pass) from my cable comp for $13.95/month. That means the cost of the Tivo box would cover the cost of renting the cable box for 4.75 years. And that doesn't take into account the Tivo service fee!!!


Sure, but you can only get 12-15 hours of HD on the Moto box and no expansion.


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## TiVoPhish (Mar 12, 2003)

jfh3 said:


> Sure, but you can only get 12-15 hours of HD on the Moto box and no expansion.


True enough for people in Moto areas, not so true for those in other areas. Scientific-Atlanta areas you can get 20 hours of HD recording and the box does include integrated support for SATA expansion + Firewire support for recording to computer (though the latter isn't such a user friendly process right now).

Not making an argument against TiVo at all, just recognizing that there are boxes that do some of these things currently...


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

neekoh said:


> i expect this to come out by October, in time for strong marketing around the holidays. TiVo's gotta come out with the 'consumer' model. Will they keep supporting Series 2 TiVo's for those of us who don't upgrade right away?


October? It had better be out long before that - say spring - and BEFORE the port is available on the Comcast boxes.

October is far too late for this box.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> ... why waste money redeveloping analog into an HD box..? Like people are going to pay a preimium over the $49 analog box for a high end HD TiVo and hook it up to their analog cable or analog sat tv?


Ummm...

The series 3 has 2 NTSC tuners.

That sounds like analog to me.


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## lachacg (Jan 11, 2003)

megazone said:


> Actually I answered this in my first post in TiVoLovers about the S3 - the system does not support external tuners at all. No satellite, not cable box. It supports digital and analog cable, and ATSC and NTSC OTA channels.


Excuse my ignorance here, but does Verizon's FIOS TV look like digital cable, that is, would the Series 3 support Verizon? It be nice to have the most options available.


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

So, when will the pre-order thread be starting?

You know, because the HR-250 preorder thread was so fun.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

TiVoPhish said:


> True enough for people in Moto areas, not so true for those in other areas. Scientific-Atlanta areas you can get 20 hours of HD recording and the box does include integrated support for SATA expansion + Firewire support for recording to computer (though the latter isn't such a user friendly process right now).
> 
> Not making an argument against TiVo at all, just recognizing that there are boxes that do some of these things currently...


But with MRV enabled on the Comcast TiVo Moto box then you can use multiple devices to increase capacity, or backup shows to a drive on your PC. Set top box disk space is less critical.



jfh3 said:


> October? It had better be out long before that - say spring - and BEFORE the port is available on the Comcast boxes.
> 
> October is far too late for this box.


I agree. If the Comcast version comes out at the same time as the Series III or worse before it the Series III then sales will be hit very hard. Don't forget they say the Comcast version is on schedule and their press release puts that at Mid 2006 as opposed to the Series III which is currently late 2006.


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## ellinj (Feb 26, 2002)

lachacg said:


> Excuse my ignorance here, but does Verizon's FIOS TV look like digital cable, that is, would the Series 3 support Verizon? It be nice to have the most options available.


Theoretically it would work, Verizon is currently using Motorola boxes with QAM and AFIK supports cable card as well.


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## Spiff (Mar 1, 2004)

TiVoPhish said:


> You would hope so, because TiVo has already lost some of those people as they waited for HD TiVo and couldn't wait anymore... I'm one of them (though not totally "lost"). I've got an SA8300HD coming tomorrow and will have X months to fall in love with it until HD TiVo comes out... that's a big risk, especially since I'm paying no additional leasing fee. Even if I were, it would take 5 years to pay for a $600 HD TiVo (not including subscription) and what's the typical life-span of equipment anyway? You don't expect your HD TiVo will get more than 5 years of life, realisitically.


Speaking as a Time Warner SA8300HD user and an owner of 5 TiVos, I can tell you that they have little to worry about you falling in love with it. It's a miserable UI. It lacks little things that make TiVo so useful (wishlists, ability to not record the same show over and over, ability to skip to a point at 15-minute intervals, ability to quickly skip to the end, searching by keyword in the description...) and has several things that annoy the heck out of me (huge, clumsy remote, runs extremely hot, when I play a recording in progress it doesn't play from the beginning and stops if the channel changes, at which point I have to play it from the beginning and start over again). Plus, the HD TiVo adds ATSC tuners, which my cableco DVR doesn't have. When a simple tuner box costs $250, $500-$800 is not unreasonable for all these features.


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## NJChris (May 11, 2001)

It's been a day since this has been announced. Is it in stores today????


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jfh3 said:


> Given that the existing HR10-250 is $599 and the Sony DHG-HDD250 is $499, my guess for MSRP is $599.
> 
> Since the hardware is very close to what's in the Sony box, $499 wouldn't surprise me (and would be a fantastic price point)...


I have the Sony, and this TiVo design is eerily similar.  Front panel is almost identical; lighting is different, and back panel (with the exception of ethernet, and an extra cablecard slot) are similar.


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## jcblack (Jul 26, 2001)

wait wait wait... no S-VIDEO INPUT??? No input other than cablecard and coax/antena in?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

jcblack said:


> wait wait wait... no S-VIDEO INPUT??? No input other than cablecard and coax/antena in?


Why capture S-Video input. If you want to do that then buy a Series 2.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

mikepatt said:


> I cant post a link, I don't have permission, but check out the article on IGN d_o_t c_o_m regarding the new units.
> 
> It says that current subscribers with the current HDTivos will get the new units FREE. That can't be right, can it?


That is a whole other discussion. There is no current HD TiVo under TiVo's wing that anybody is going to trade the S3 TiVo with/for.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

gastrof said:


> Any idea why it's lacking A/V *in*puts?
> 
> Will never be able to work with a separate satellite tuner, for example, or a standard cable box outputting thru RCA lines?
> 
> ...


The S3 is specifically a cable/ATSC only DVR. Get over it.

If you want to record satellite with a TiVo get an current S2 Standlone.


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## mikepatt (Feb 11, 2004)

classicsat said:


> That is a whole other discussion. There is no current HD TiVo under TiVo's wing that anybody is going to trade the S3 TiVo with/for.


I didn't realize that, sorry. I see now that DirecTV's dvrs are no longer TiVo, but I do believe the unit they are referring to is HD.

Mike


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

classicsat said:


> The S3 is specifically a cable/ATSC only DVR. Get over it.
> 
> If you want to record satellite with a TiVo get an current S2 Standlone.


Still, I could understand why people would want to be able to do it.

Maybe they only have room for one DVR in their AV rack or TV stand. They may have to "dump" a Series 1 or Series 2 to be able to use the Series 3. Dumping a previous TiVo would mean that they would lose some capability that they once had.


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## BuggyBoyVT (May 4, 2001)

Another mirror for images:
http://64.247.19.118/


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

gastrof said:


> Ummm...
> 
> The series 3 has 2 NTSC tuners.
> 
> That sounds like analog to me.


I guess my comment wasn't well thought out. This unit will HAVE to support analog as most cable companies are a hybrid of analog, digital, and HD. So for example, if it did not have analog tuners you might lose your entire basic tier if your cable company is still doing them in analog...

So cool thing would be, if you could get HD OTA you could subscribe to basic analog cable and be able to record both... Not even needing a cablecard..


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

nhaigh said:


> Why capture S-Video input. If you want to do that then buy a Series 2.


I can give you a whole ton of reasons (especially after talking to my cableco). I mean really, they already have MPEG encoders in place to compress the analog signal (NTSC and Cable) why not have an S-Video input? I suppose because they would have to add IR blasters, etc., but...

1) With the DirecTV HD-TiVo going away, it is the ONLY TiVo to record ATSC. If you can get your ATSC locals and don't care for the cable companies HD offerings, why should you be foreced to switch from Dish or DirecTV to cable just to get your regular no-HD channels??

2) My cable company doesn't even know what a cablecard is. Like THAT's going to be smooth! Perhaps it takes a long time for my cable company to get it together?

3) My cable company's 'digital cable' means that all of our channels are analog except the added channels. (in other words, ESPN is analog, ESPN2 is digital. HBO is Analog, HBO2 is digital, etc.) And they change $50 a month JUST for analog. Why would I switch from DirecTV to analog cable for $50 a month? My cableco doesn't offer HD at all. So we're now comparing S-Video to analog cable, I would prefer s-video from DirecTV to that.

4) Series2 will have to be discontinued when the ATSC tuner madate happens, leaving this the only box available. Unless the retro-fit atsc tuners in the series2?


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

_Originally Posted by Welshdog
I have seen digital cable here in Austin on Time Warner and honestly it ain't all that great sometimes. Often the ATSC picture is superior._ 


adavidw said:


> I would hope the ATSC picture is always superior. Perhaps you mean NTSC?


Sorry I meant Digital HD Cable compared to ATSC over the air signal.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> 1) With the DirecTV HD-TiVo going away, it is the ONLY TiVo to record ATSC. If you can get your ATSC locals and don't care for the cable companies HD offerings, why should you be foreced to switch from Dish or DirecTV to cable just to get your regular no-HD channels??


You aren't forced to. You switch if you want to continue to use the latest and greatest TiVo and you don't want to continue to use the HD DirectTiVo. It's YOUR choice. No one forces you to do anything.



> 3) My cable company's 'digital cable' means that all of our channels are analog except the added channels. (in other words, ESPN is analog, ESPN2 is digital. HBO is Analog, HBO2 is digital, etc.) And they change $50 a month JUST for analog. Why would I switch from DirecTV to analog cable for $50 a month? My cableco doesn't offer HD at all. So we're now comparing S-Video to analog cable, I would prefer s-video from DirecTV to that.


If it's gonna be S-Video, it's not going to be HD. If it's not going to be HD, then what's the big deal? Why would you get the series 3 if you have no HD content to record?



> 4) Series2 will have to be discontinued when the ATSC tuner madate happens, leaving this the only box available. Unless the retro-fit atsc tuners in the series2?


 Release a software update that will allow the Series 2 to control an ATSC/QAM STB just like it can control a cable box or Dish reciever or DirecTV receiver.


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

Now that I've made it all the way to the end of this thread, I have just a few observations:

Why are we finding out about this through blog entries, and not from TiVo directly?

I just checked TiVo's website (both their normal pressroom page and their special CES page), and there is no press release for this unit. Why did they bother showing it at CES, if they plan to practically keep it secret? Does TiVo have their proverbial head up their *ss, or what?

Say what you will about Apple, but at least when Steve announces a product in public, it's available for purchase through the Apple Store pretty much the same day. Why can't we expect the same from TiVo? Given their past track record, I think we'll be lucky to see this on store shelves before Xmas.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

mportuesi said:


> ...Say what you will about Apple, but at least when Steve announces a product in public, it's available for purchase through the Apple Store pretty much the same day. Why can't we expect the same from TiVo? Given their past track record, I think we'll be lucky to see this on store shelves before Xmas.


That may be EXACTLY the reason it wasn't a big splash announcement; that, and the fact that they did already announce this at last year's CES. Why make a big deal when it, in fact, WON'T be out for another 6-9 months? I'd look for a bigger press event when it does hit the "shelves".


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mportuesi said:


> Now that I've made it all the way to the end of this thread, I have just a few observations:
> 
> Why are we finding out about this through blog entries, and not from TiVo directly?
> 
> ...


I think they did not do press release becasue they do not have a firm date or price yet . also work to do in the software which may or may not effect features.

so they can do what they did which is show off a working unit and let the press report what they saw or by your suggestion hide it away and do nothing public until they knw the firm date in 3 months or whatever.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

mportuesi said:


> Now that I've made it all the way to the end of this thread, I have just a few observations:
> 
> Why are we finding out about this through blog entries, and not from TiVo directly?
> 
> ...


No press release because it's still a prototype. You are right it could be a long time before it is in stores. Tivo is small and I guess can't devote the same resources as Apple to getting hardware ready and produced. That being said, it does seem to me like it takes Tivo way too long to get things out the door. To be fair they do have to deal with a lot of non-hardware variables, like the networks' wishes, cable companies and their maneuverings, constantly changing markets etc etc. If they just put out the box we really want that could record anything and burn stuff and not have any DRM they would get stomped on like Instant Replay did.


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> I'd look for a bigger press event when it does hit the "shelves".


But don't you think it at least merits a press release on TiVo's CES webpage?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mportuesi said:


> But don't you think it at least merits a press release on TiVo's CES webpage?


saying what - look how much better it looks now than last year 

only 6 or 9 more months to go


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> So cool thing would be, if you could get HD OTA you could subscribe to basic analog cable and be able to record both... Not even needing a cablecard..


Ask and ye shall recieve. My understanding is that the cablecard is only required to decode the scambled digital channels. So you should be able to do analog cable and OTA ATSC with no cablecard.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

TiVoPhish said:


> Now THAT's wishful thinking... the Rumor thread and the pictures thread said someone at the show heard it "slip" that price would be in the $500-$800 neighborhood.


I am stubornly taking the under on the price.

TiVo has to deal with the fact that cable companies are low balling their hardware because they hope additional revenue streams they collect when people use the features (like VOD and games) will pay off. That's why TiVo needs other revenue stream generating deals and functionality.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

pkscout said:


> Ask and ye shall recieve. My understanding is that the cablecard is only required to decode the scambled digital channels. So you should be able to do analog cable and OTA ATSC with no cablecard.


Correct.

And you can even record digital cable TV stuff that is sent clear QAM. (like local digital/HD channels)


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## AutoJames (Jul 26, 2004)

the timing is perfect for me. I just installed the new DirectTV DVR (non tivo) for a friend and it is the worst piece of UI programming I've ever seen (and I've worked with Windows!) I will never use one, never own one because it would raise my blood pressure just to record a program with it. In the next few months we've saved for new TV (and HD I hope!) and my dish is ancient so it would need to be upgraded to get HD anyway, instead I'll spend the money getting this TiVO and switch to digital cable. I've already told DirectTV what I think of their new box, not that it will do any good. 
Dumping their contract with TiVO was stupid, I hope that their crapola interface drives people away to TiVO, but people are so used to garbage computer stuff that they probably wont notice nor be interested in shelling out a few more bucks for something that works without all the acrobatics.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Spiff said:


> Plus, the HD TiVo adds ATSC tuners, which my cableco DVR doesn't have.


Isn't ATSC redundant on a cable box? The same channels are already coming in over the cable right?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

nhaigh said:


> Why capture S-Video input. If you want to do that then buy a Series 2.


Suppose I don't have digital cable, but I want to get an ATSC antenna and want to use that with analog cable. What do I do?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> Isn't ATSC redundant on a cable box? The same channels are already coming in over the cable right?


Not always. There are cases where cable companies do not send all the OTA Digital (ATSC) stations that are available.


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## HogarthNH (Dec 28, 2001)

mportuesi said:


> But don't you think it at least merits a press release on TiVo's CES webpage?


Certainly, the last vaporware / prototype HD TiVo did.
http://www.pbase.com/image/10792288

I find it amusing that it was three years ago.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> Suppose I don't have digital cable, but I want to get an ATSC antenna and want to use that with analog cable. What do I do?


you just hook up the antenna to the Series 3 TiVo. it has a built in ATSC tuner. It will record from that source.

See this pic..

http://www.something-fishy.com/photography/TiVoS3/back_closeup2


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> you just hook up the antenna to the Series 3 TiVo. it has a built in ATSC tuner. It will record from that source.
> 
> See this pic..
> 
> http://www.something-fishy.com/photography/TiVoS3/back_closeup2


But how do I record the analog cable stuff too?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> But how do I record the analog cable stuff too?


Plug the cable in to the connector labled "Cable"??


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## bficky (Mar 19, 2004)

I live in Dallas, which is still in the dark ages of having the Comcast cable split into A/B. Anyone care to speculate how the Series three will work with the A/B setup? I doubt the new box will have two separate cable inputs (like my digital box does). I could use an infrared "channel changer" on the digital box, but I'm guessing that will not work with dual tuner. Hmmm...


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> saying what - look how much better it looks now than last year


Wait a minute. If all of this info was covered by a press release from last year, then why was everyone so excited about TivoPony's confirmation a month ago that there would be a cable-compatible HD TiVo? Why this thread? Why so many people beating down the doors to see the pictures and pore over its specs?

The CES unveiling gaves us a clear idea of the box's specs and capabilities. TiVo really ought to do a press release summarizing its capabilities and benefits, even if they have to use weasel-words for price and availability. Otherwise, why show it?



ZeoTiVo said:


> only 6 or 9 more months to go


Indeed. I'll be checking out next week's MacWorld to see if Steve will bring us an alternative.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

pkscout said:


> Ask and ye shall recieve. My understanding is that the cablecard is only required to decode the scambled digital channels. So you should be able to do analog cable and OTA ATSC with no cablecard.


Well, yes and no. (But mostly yes.) The Cablecard is indeed only needed for scrambled channels, however it doesn't look like this box has a QAM tuner.

So the good news is that you could certainly do analog cable (locals, etc.) with the Series 3. However, it also looks like you CANNOT do unscrambled digital (like, for example, HD locals which by FCC mandate must be unscrambled).


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

jsmeeker said:


> Correct.
> 
> And you can even record digital cable TV stuff that is sent clear QAM. (like local digital/HD channels)


I guess I misread -- does the Series 3 include a QAM tuner?


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

jsmeeker said:


> Not always. There are cases where cable companies do not send all the OTA Digital (ATSC) stations that are available.


Or maybe they do, but you want the ATSC feed because it looks better. All of the cable/sat providers are just getting the ATSC feeds and then recompressing them, so OTA ATSC will always be the best picture (assuming no reception issues).


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## AGSHender (Jan 3, 2005)

I'm a bit confused about how this sucker would even fit into my A/V system. I don't currently have an HDTV, but I plan on buying one with my tax refund this spring and I'm looking forward to being able to watch TV and DVDs at a higher resolution than I currently do on my little TV.

DVDs require component video is order to display the higher resolution on an HDTV, and with an A/V receiver then you have to hook up the component video as follows:

DVD---->component video cable---->A/V receiver---->component video cable---->HDTV

Since the Series3 only has one set of component video out connectors, that means that you have to have it as follows to watch HDTV:

Series3 Tivo---->component video cable---->HDTV

If you happen to have an HDTV with only one set of component video in connectors, you're in trouble unless you happen to have HDMI, too. You're going to be cable-swapping every time you want to switch between TV and DVDs and keep your high-resolution picture. It would have been tremendously easier if they had a set of component video *in* connectors to place the TiVo in between the receiver and the TV instead of just one set of component out to connect as shown:

DVD---->component video---->A/V receiver---->component video---->Series3 Tivo---->component video---->HDTV

I guess they're counting on people having HDTVs with multiple component-in jacks. A quick scan of Crutchfield shows that the lower-end models only have one set, for the most part.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> Plug the cable in to the connector labled "Cable"??


Isn't that already hooked up to the ATSC?


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

classicsat said:


> The S3 is specifically a cable/ATSC only DVR.


From what I've been reading it does cable and/or antenna so that'll be NTSC/ATSC, analog/digital (one assumes QAM?), and CableCard for the encrypted premium channels. For a cable and/or antenna user this box should already do everything.

There's no need for a video in if using with cable or antenna as it already covers all of those options internally. The only use for a video in would be if you wanted to hook it up to a satellite receiver but that would be "kludgey" like a current Series2 would be if connected to satellite.

Have I misread anything?


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## digitalfirefly (Apr 15, 2005)

I'm buying this the day it comes out.


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## SleepyBob (Sep 28, 2000)

AGSHender said:


> I'm a bit confused about how this sucker would even fit into my A/V system. I don't currently have an HDTV, but I plan on buying one with my tax refund this spring and I'm looking forward to being able to watch TV and DVDs at a higher resolution than I currently do on my little TV.
> 
> DVDs require component video is order to display the higher resolution on an HDTV, and with an A/V receiver then you have to hook up the component video as follows:
> 
> ...


Is there a reason you don't have both the DVD and TiVo connected via component to the A/V receiver, and then A/V receiver to HDTV?


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

digitalfirefly said:


> I'm buying this the day it comes out.


Not me...I'm buying it *BEFORE* it comes out


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> Isn't that already hooked up to the ATSC?


what do you mean?? There are two inputs. "Cable" and "Antenna" They aren't labled "ATSC" or "NTSC" or anything. Remember, an OTA antenna feed will have BOTH ATSC and NTSC signals all mixed in. I'm sure the TiVo figures out what is what and tunes it with the right thing.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

AGSHender said:


> I'm a bit confused about how this sucker would even fit into my A/V system. I don't currently have an HDTV, but I plan on buying one with my tax refund this spring and I'm looking forward to being able to watch TV and DVDs at a higher resolution than I currently do on my little TV.
> 
> DVDs require component video is order to display the higher resolution on an HDTV, and with an A/V receiver then you have to hook up the component video as follows:
> 
> ...


Assuming you have a TV with only one set of suitable inputs: 
If your A/V receiver has component video switching (e.g., 2 in, 1 out), then both the DVD and TiVo go in to the receiver and you'll select the source from the receiver. If your receiver does component upconvert (i.e., you have composite or s-video sources, and your receiver can convert those to component and that goes to your TV) but doesn't have switching, you can get an external switch like one of these. The the DVD goes to the receiver and the receiver and tivo go to the switch and the switch output goes to the TV. You then have to use both the receiver and the switch to pick the source. If your receiver neither upconverts nor switches, then your DVD and TiVo go to the switch, and the switch goes to the output. (There is no point in the DVD -> receiver link in this case, and it will only degrade your picture.) You would switch inputs via both the receiver and the switch, unless you you have composite or s-video sources, in which case you would switch inputs via the receiver and the TV.

If you have component and HDMI on your TV (which you should if it is new), then it becomes easier because you can use the TV to switch video, rather than buying an external switch.

But if not please, please, please buy the switch and do not constantly swap cables. You will eventually damage your equipment with all the plugging and unplugging.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

cheer said:


> I guess I misread -- does the Series 3 include a QAM tuner?


Of course, how else would it receive digital cable, being cablecard is only an access device, not a tuner?


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

AGSHender said:


> I'm a bit confused about how this sucker would even fit into my A/V system. I don't currently have an HDTV, but I plan on buying one with my tax refund this spring and I'm looking forward to being able to watch TV and DVDs at a higher resolution than I currently do on my little TV.


Then buy a set with two HDMI, or one of each.
FWIW, upconverting DVD players only do up to 480i on component, so need HDMI/DVI for better. AFAIK.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

Larry in TN said:


> From what I've been reading it does cable and/or antenna so that'll be NTSC/ATSC, analog/digital (one assumes QAM?), and CableCard for the encrypted premium channels. For a cable and/or antenna user this box should already do everything.


Yes, that is the point of this box.


> There's no need for a video in if using with cable or antenna as it already covers all of those options internally. The only use for a video in would be if you wanted to hook it up to a satellite receiver but that would be "kludgey" like a current Series2 would be if connected to satellite.
> 
> Have I misread anything?


Nope, that is about it.


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## HogarthNH (Dec 28, 2001)

Larry in TN said:


> There's no need for a video in if using with cable or antenna as it already covers all of those options internally. The only use for a video in would be if you wanted to hook it up to a satellite receiver but that would be "kludgey" like a current Series2 would be if connected to satellite.
> 
> Have I misread anything?


Nope. This product is almost exclusively for the 70-some-odd million households with cable rather than the 25 million with satellite.

Makes sense to me when the Sat companies no longer want to play with TiVo at all.

H


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

HogarthNH said:


> Makes sense to me when the Sat companies no longer want to play with TiVo at all.


Then again, if TiVo wins the suit against Echostar, the satellite guys might end up with a TiVo option after all.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Isn't that already hooked up to the ATSC?


No; ATSC is for over-the-air HD only.


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## AGSHender (Jan 3, 2005)

SleepyBob said:


> Is there a reason you don't have both the DVD and TiVo connected via component to the A/V receiver, and then A/V receiver to HDTV?


Well...I suppose not. That would work. I was thinking from a different standpoint and not factoring in my A/V receiver having multiple component video inputs (it does). I have an extra kink in the story, though: I currently have multiple DVD players which I assumed would take up both my component video inputs on my receiver. The only reason they're not hooked up like that now is that I don't have an HDTV for the better picture and my receiver doesn't convert component video to another output.

I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and retire one of my DVD players--one's a 400-disc DVD jukebox that's better for long-term storage, and the other's a single-disc player better for playing rentals and stuff I don't keep in the jukebox like TV shows. It's a hassle to open and load the jukebox for a single disc, but it would simplify my setup.

But why would I want my TiVo to be on the "Video2" receiver setting? I demand that it stay on "Video1"! I'd get HDTV and digital sound out of it, though. Small price to pay.

OK, I approve. Good move, Tivo. Can we get some official pricing info now...?


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## AGSHender (Jan 3, 2005)

classicsat said:


> Then buy a set with two HDMI, or one of each.
> FWIW, upconverting DVD players only do up to 480i on component, so need HDMI/DVI for better. AFAIK.


Not necessarily an option. Price and viewing quality are my primary buying points, and I can't afford to purchase a more expensive set with an HDMI input if that's what it comes down to.

I know that DVD doesn't require HDMI, but component video is the minimum for 480i. It can't do it on RCA, so I was using the example of component video or better to get the 480i picture.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

AGSHender said:


> Not necessarily an option. Price and viewing quality are my primary buying points, and I can't afford to purchase a more expensive set with an HDMI input if that's what it comes down to.
> 
> I know that DVD doesn't require HDMI, but component video is the minimum for 480i. It can't do it on RCA, so I was using the example of component video or better to get the 480i picture.


Do you mean 480p perhaps? 480i is just normal NTSC...


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

classicsat said:


> Of course, how else would it receive digital cable, being cablecard is only an access device, not a tuner?


Fair enough; I'm not really a cable guy and wasn't aware of that. (Normally when I look at new TV sets and whatnot they specifically mention QAM tuner whether they have cablecard or not, so when I didn't see it here I mad a bad assumption.)


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## jcblack (Jul 26, 2001)

I don't understand you guys who are defending the lack of composite/s-video input! 

It can record analog (read: has an encoder) yet there is only one way to input it (via a modulated frequency?)??

There's no reason NOT to have s-video inputs.... other than this being all about TiVo wanting to please the industry. They've patched dreaded "analog hole"!!! 

With this box TiVo is giving you the flexibility of 2 tuners, 2 cable card slots, analog cable recording capabilities yet no way to record any other analog source. ...it's close to a perfect machine, but still has limitations.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

jcblack said:


> I don't understand you guys who are defending the lack of composite/s-video input!


Earlier, I posted how I understand how some people may want this capability. (but it won't help people who were hoping to stick with DirecTV and use the Series 3 to record HD stuff from DirecTV).

Does it bother ME that it doesn't have it? Nah... I just don't do the sorts of things that would require me to record something via s-video or composite.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

Where is the Blu-ray version?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> If it's gonna be S-Video, it's not going to be HD. If it's not going to be HD, then what's the big deal? Why would you get the series 3 if you have no HD content to record?


HUH????? So if your cable company offers 6 HD channels thats ALL your going to watch??

I watch SOOOMMMEE HD and SOOOMMEE SD. It's a COMBINATION of the two. The box records ATSC. Not EVERY channel is in HD in cable!!!

You will have a combination of Analog Cable channels, Digital Cable channels, and HD channels.

What are you going to do, stack the units on top of each other? Also, are you forgetting that the Series 2's are going to be discontinued??? (As mandated by the FCC, all devices must have an ATSC tuner or no tuner at all!)

My point was if it HAS to record analog, because 90% of cable is NOT HD, then why not record off S-Video? Of course I'll watch my network channels and the few HD channels that come out, but many won't be HD.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> Earlier, I posted how I understand how some people may want this capability. (but it won't help people who were hoping to stick with DirecTV and use the Series 3 to record HD stuff from DirecTV).
> 
> Does it bother ME that it doesn't have it? Nah... I just don't do the sorts of things that would require me to record something via s-video or composite.


1) Some people CANT get cable.

2) Some people want a choice.

3) The box records ATSC OTA, which is really the only content I watch in HD anyway besides ESPN.

So if you wanted an HD TiVO to record OTA, but still record the analog counterparts you would want an input.

This is such a stupid argument. You are saying "Your an idiot if want to record non-HD content." Yet most cable companies only offer 6-8 HD channels, so they designed the box to record SD *AND* HD content. It's all built right in, they just didn't add an input!

They are sucking up to the cable industry.


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## TK421 (Feb 25, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> 1) Some people CANT get cable.
> 
> 2) Some people want a choice.
> 
> ...


What analog counterparts? The box will record analog cable directly and digital cable with the cablecard...what more are you looking for?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

TK421 said:


> What analog counterparts? The box will record analog cable directly and digital cable with the cablecard...what more are you looking for?


s-video and support for satellite / cable STB's.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

*steps on soapbox*
I want one, I want one, I want one...

even more then the pony when I was 8!!!!

I've been trying hard not to buy the Sony DVR because this unit was possibly having a date announced at CES, no date, but certainly everything I want in an HD Tivo.

two thumbs up

Diane


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## TK421 (Feb 25, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> s-video and support for satellite / cable STB's.


But it *is* a cable STB, so you are really talking about satellite users. This box isn't really designed for satellite users, so I guess in that sense you are right. It's not some conspiracy though, I'm sure it's just a business decision. They not only need to include S-video and RCA inputs, but they also need all of the IR blaster HW, SW and support troubles that go with it. TiVo probably figured it wasn't worth it for the number of people who want HD OTA and SD satellite.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> HUH????? So if your cable company offers 6 HD channels thats ALL your going to watch??
> 
> I watch SOOOMMMEE HD and SOOOMMEE SD. It's a COMBINATION of the two. The box records ATSC. Not EVERY channel is in HD in cable!!!


and this box will record EVERYTHING a cable company sends, PLUS anything i can get OTA.

really, do some research for saying dumb crap.


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

Wow.. 

This box will handle ANY OTA / NTSC or ATSC and cable tuning... standard or high definition.

Read that sentence again.

It will not handle an external satellite box.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

TK421 said:


> But it *is* a cable STB, so you are really talking about satellite users. This box isn't really designed for satellite users, so I guess in that sense you are right. It's not some conspiracy though, I'm sure it's just a business decision. They not only need to include S-video and RCA inputs, but they also *need all of the IR blaster HW, SW and support troubles that go with it. TiVo probably figured it wasn't worth it for the number of people who want HD OTA and SD satellite.*


hold the phones we have a winner folks. if you want to record Dish or DirecTV so badly then have a S2 that does that already. and if you want OTA then buy this box as well, of ocurse not a perfect solution for sat users but this is a *cable* card box. The whole point of the cable card box was to drop all the IR and serial crap.

still not happy - petition the FCC for a direct way to access sat providers digital signal in the same open standard and clean design way.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

Dishnetwork and DirecTV don't want to allow anything but their own box. If wasn't for the FCC requiring "cable card" cable would do the same thing.

This new Tivo looks cool, I was disappointed at the lack of FireWire, it would be really cool if we could archive to DVHS, some sort of Save to D-VHS. Since HD-DVD looks a ways off it would be cool if they started offering HD-PPV or HD netflix rental.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

ATSC is a set of standards that only applies to over the air digital signals. At a minimum it requires 8-VSB (Vestigial Side Band) modulation, standardizes on Mpeg2 and a set of 18 different resolutions (mix of HD,SD Progressive , Interlaced). It also requires PSIP (Program System Information Protocol) the system for guide, time and channel info.

Cable Card is a standard that only applies to cable tv (not ota or satellite) and is required by the FCC. I don't know all the specs but at a minimum it requires a decoder to support several forms of QAM (Quadrature Amplitude Modulation) and decoding of Mpeg2. They have QAM 16,64,256 so I am not sure why its still called quadrature.

Its rare to find an ATSC spec signal on cable and was only done as a quick way to get digital local stations on to cable. 8VSB is less efficient than QAM since it was designed for a noisy OTA environment so very very few cable systems still do this.


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## MikeSh (Feb 10, 2003)

gastrof said:


> Any idea why it's lacking A/V *in*puts?
> 
> Will never be able to work with a separate satellite tuner, for example, or a standard cable box outputting thru RCA lines?
> 
> ...


The pics of the rear of the unit show 2 A/V jacks and it has 2 cable card slots.

Mike


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> Isn't ATSC redundant on a cable box? The same channels are already coming in over the cable right?


Maybe, maybe not. There are several local ATSC channels not carried on my local cable system. In some areas the local cable co can't reach an agreement with a station so an antenna is the only way.

The other reason to support ATSC is for people who don't have cable. It doesn't require any extra hardware so there is no reason not too.


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## Maxnl (Jan 7, 2006)

bficky said:


> I live in Dallas, which is still in the dark ages of having the Comcast cable split into A/B. Anyone care to speculate how the Series three will work with the A/B setup? I doubt the new box will have two separate cable inputs (like my digital box does). I could use an infrared "channel changer" on the digital box, but I'm guessing that will not work with dual tuner. Hmmm...


We also have an A/B system, and it is the most annoying thing possible, they can't deliver dual tuner dvrs for us... 
Here line A contains internet and scrambled premium and digital channels, and local access channels. Line B contains the basic analog. 
The way it works for us is that the cable card actually has input for line A and B. 
We're just unlucky that TCI (is that what it used to be called anyway) cable was bought by Comcast.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Where is the Blu-ray version?


 Ray is singing the Blues. No date from Sony.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

You guys keep saying "if you have satellite get a series2, you don't need HD"

I'm simply saying, if you want a TiVo that will record ATSC OTA (WHICH I DO) then this is the ONLY box that will do it now that the HR10 is going away.

So, in my opinion, it was shortsighted to allienate people who can't get cable, or don't want cable... it wouldn't have taken much to make it compatible with STB's allowing us to record our HD OTA and still get our regular TV.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> and this box will record EVERYTHING a cable company sends, PLUS anything i can get OTA.
> 
> really, do some research for saying dumb crap.


You can't read can you...? We were talking about S-VIDEO.



jsmeeker said:


> If it's gonna be S-Video, it's not going to be HD. If it's not going to be HD, then what's the big deal? Why would you get the series 3 if you have no HD content to record?"


ATSC IS HD, so even if soimeone is recording S-Video...they are getting HD & SD. If you had satellite and OTA, or cable but can't get a cablecard, or cable with no HD so you don't care about the cablecard, etc.

The current models are touted as supporting all services.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> You guys keep saying "if you have satellite get a series2, you don't need HD"
> 
> I'm simply saying, if you want a TiVo that will record ATSC OTA (WHICH I DO) then this is the ONLY box that will do it now that the HR10 is going away.
> 
> So, in my opinion, it was shortsighted to allienate people who can't get cable, or don't want cable... it wouldn't have taken much to make it compatible with STB's allowing us to record our HD OTA and still get our regular TV.


DirectTV made the decision about TiVo. I am sure TiVo would be willing to continue supplying DVRs. Call them and complain.

-- Rich


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Looks nice; I wish the ATSC tuners were a plug in option and not standard. It would save a few bucks for people who don't get over the air reception ( which why cable exists in the first place.)


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

tenthplanet said:


> Looks nice; I wish the ATSC tuners were a plug in option and not standard. It would save a few bucks for people who don't get over the air reception ( which why cable exists in the first place.)


I like the OTA option but I guess that is because I also use an HTPC. Definately getting one of these, but I may also record on my HTPC since I can save, share, and play them without all this DRM crap.

-- Rich


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Adam1115ATSC IS HD said:


> uh.. NO.. ATSC does not always equal HD. You CAN NOT SEND an HD signal from another box (a DirectTV unit, for example) to something like a series 3 TiVo via S-VIDEO.. That connection WILL NOT support that. hence, the comments about S-Video on a Series 3 being USELESS to someone who wants to hook up a HiDef DirecTV unit to it and record HiDef stuff from the DirecTV unit. S-VIDEO does not help in that situation. It's useful for OTHER things, but recording HD from an external box of some sort is NOT one of them.
> 
> The HD DirectTiVo (which is out NOW and has been out for sometime) will go away in that it won't be sold any more. But if you have one, it will still work. And it WILL record ATSC (SD and HD) in addition to the stuff from the satellite. YOU made the choice to get DirecTV. Did you get the HD DirecTiVo? If not, why not? DirecTV made the choice to dump TiVo. TiVo didn't dump DirecTV. What do you want more? TiVo or DirecTV? You'll probably say both. Well, then, go ***** to DirecTV. They are the ones that "screwed" you.


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## generalpatton71 (Oct 30, 2002)

Whats with some of these people banging against ATSC? It's the most importan feature of the box. Most cable companies don't carry all the local HD stations. If you have a Sinclair owned local figure it NEVER going HD on you cable system. Local HD is the killer app for HD right now and not having the 2 ATSC tuners would be nuts. The more options the better!!!


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

generalpatton71 said:


> Whats with some of these people banging against ATSC? It's the most importan feature of the box. Most cable companies don't carry all the local HD stations. If you have a Sinclair owned local figure it NEVER going HD on you cable system. Local HD is the killer app for HD right now and not having the 2 ATSC tuners would be nuts. The more options the better!!!


I think you are right about local HD in some of the major markets.

But for SDTV, local over the air broadcasting will enjoy new life as well. Local broadcasters will find it very interesting financially to broadcast 4 SD channels rather than 1 HD channel with their alloted frequency. ASTC becomes very interesting if this is the way things evolve, because of the DVR's magnifier effect. 24 local SD channels gives the more actual viewing choice on a DVR than live access to 150 channels.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> uh.. NO.. ATSC does not always equal HD. You CAN NOT SEND an HD signal from another box (a DirectTV unit, for example) to something like a series 3 TiVo via S-VIDEO.. That connection WILL NOT support that. hence, the comments about S-Video on a Series 3 being USELESS to someone who wants to hook up a HiDef DirecTV unit to it and record HiDef stuff from the DirecTV unit. S-VIDEO does not help in that situation. It's useful for OTHER things, but recording HD from an external box of some sort is NOT one of them.
> 
> The HD DirectTiVo (which is out NOW and has been out for sometime) will go away in that it won't be sold any more. But if you have one, it will still work. And it WILL record ATSC (SD and HD) in addition to the stuff from the satellite. YOU made the choice to get DirecTV. Did you get the HD DirecTiVo? If not, why not? DirecTV made the choice to dump TiVo. TiVo didn't dump DirecTV. What do you want more? TiVo or DirecTV? You'll probably say both. Well, then, go ***** to DirecTV. They are the ones that "screwed" you.


Your right, that DirecTV screwed me. That's sort of my point. Cable screwed me, I went to Dish. Dish screwed me, went to DirecTV. Now they are screwing me, so what?

Which do I want more, TiVo or DirecTV? My point is why do I have to make that choice? A huge advantage of the Series 2, is that it will work with Dish, DirecTV, AND cable. The series3, which will replace the series 2 will ONLY work with cable. I want the box to be flexible, work with Cablecard, Dish, Directv, whatever. You say that's stupid because I won't get any HD content from DirecTV hooking it up that way. So what? if (eventually) I watch 99% of my HD OTA anyway, and my cable company sucks, and want to pay TiVo for the service why not support it? It would not have taken much to build in the IR and S-Video support to do it.

An alternative I suppose would be to build a OTA series3 without any cablecard support and support DirecTV, Dish, and cable... But I don't see much point in building two very similar boxes.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> My point is why do I have to make that choice?


This question has been answered over and over again. Why do you keep asking it?


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## adavidw (Feb 23, 2000)

Adam1115 said:


> The series3, which will replace the series 2 ...


I don't think we've seen any evidence that the Series3 will replace the Series2. In fact, I think we've seen plenty of evidence that the Series2 will continue to exist and be sold alongside other future products for a long time.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> My point is why do I have to make that choice? A huge advantage of the Series 2, is that it will work with Dish, DirecTV, AND cable. The series3, which will replace the series 2 will ONLY work with cable.


I notice that most people have not been supportive, but I can say, I also believe that it is short sighted for the Series 3 box to not support alternate video input through an s-video or rca connector, so it could be used to with alternate services, like DirecTV or Dish. But who knows, most of the original TiVo startup people are out of the picture and TiVo might be struggling just to get this box out the door. I would say that the Series 3 as it has been developed as of today, is likely very close to the finalized product, and we all will have to make a decision if it fits our requirements.

To tell you the truth, the included wired Ethernet and eSATA support is a great addition, so when it is finally released I will have to make a decision to drop DirecTV after 11+ years and jump back to cable. But my big reason to jump to cable is bundled (no extra cost) OnDemand and the Series 3, and if the Series 3 with a version 2.0 CableCard can activate all cable functions and give me HD and dual tuners, then I will likely make the jump.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Larry in TN said:


> This question has been answered over and over again. Why do you keep asking it?


Because he's a jack---.....oh, forget it....not worth the effort of typing.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

generalpatton71 said:


> Whats with some of these people banging against ATSC? It's the most importan feature of the box. Most cable companies don't carry all the local HD stations. If you have a Sinclair owned local figure it NEVER going HD on you cable system. Local HD is the killer app for HD right now and not having the 2 ATSC tuners would be nuts. The more options the better!!!


Good point.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

mportuesi said:


> ... Indeed. I'll be checking out next week's MacWorld to see if Steve will bring us an alternative.


By Steve, I'm assuming you mean Apple? 

The only reason I would be interested in a competitive product, at this point in time, is for the competition it brings into the marketplace. Competition is our friend


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

I don't think this has been asked yet, but if it has then just point me to the answer 

How will the S3 record two analog signals at one time? I wonder if this will even be possible.


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## JWThiers (Apr 13, 2005)

Bad news about Series 3. According to PC Magazines CES coverage The series 3 won't support MRV. :down: :down: :down: 

Quote from article

Unlike the latest Series II TiVos, it will not allow programs to be transferred from one TiVo to another in a home. That's due in part to technical issues, explained a TiVo representative, but mostly because of unresolved DRM issues. The box will support downloaded content from the internet, which lets users acquire HD and SD movies and other programs via a broadband connection.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

JWThiers said:


> Bad news about Series 3. According to PC Magazines CES coverage The series 3 won't support MRV. :down: :down: :down:


No one quite believes that yet. Go HERE for an in-depth discussion of the subject!


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## TiVoed4Life (Dec 20, 2003)

The new guide TiVo Online appears to be still a bit buggy for me, but it looks pretty good

http://www3-beta.tivo.com/tivo-tco/index.do


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

tenthplanet said:


> Looks nice; I wish the ATSC tuners were a plug in option and not standard. It would save a few bucks for people who don't get over the air reception ( which why cable exists in the first place.)


Funny... I was thinking the opposite. Why not make a box without CableCARD slots to save a few bucks since I'm not giving Comcast any more dough - I want my HD via OTA.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> I also believe that it is short sighted for the Series 3 box to not support alternate video input through an s-video or rca connector, so it could be used to with alternate services, like DirecTV or Dish.


It seems like a smart business move to me. You put an S-Video on there, then someone plugs their HD receiver into their Series 3 via S-Video and then you get a support call complaining that the series 3 is not recording HD. HD analog in is not feesible, so not confusing the issue is smart.

This thing can record all broadcast TV except satellite, talk to the satellite companies about that. Don't complain to TiVo about it.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

davezatz said:


> Funny... I was thinking the opposite. Why not make a box without CableCARD slots to save a few bucks since I'm not giving Comcast any more dough - I want my HD via OTA.


I'm with you. I could care a whit about CC....all the HD I want I can get OTA, too.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

btwyx said:


> It seems like a smart business move to me. You put an S-Video on there, then someone plugs their HD receiver into their Series 3 via S-Video and then you get a support call complaining that the series 3 is not recording HD. HD analog in is not feesible, so not confusing the issue is smart.
> 
> This thing can record all broadcast TV except satellite, talk to the satellite companies about that. Don't complain to TiVo about it.


Actually I am not complaing at all.

If the Series 3 is a full functional (OnDemand and PPV, with a 2.0 CableCard) cable product, I am done with DirecTV after 11+ years.

Although the Series 3 has to support MRV. Currently I have three HDVR2s and all have been hacked for MRV and other features. But I use MRV everyday, and in a cable enviroment it would become even more important. I really don't care about the additional video-in support. But MRV has to be active for me to make the jump.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

I doubt it will support OnDemand, that won't be added until cablecard 2.0 and this tivo probably lacks 2-way hardware since the standard isn't even ready yet. I've heard that you can order PPV with cable card 1.0 by calling the cable company same as you did with the old cable boxes.

I'd argue that with tivo you don't really need on demand but if you want it just rent a regular cable box.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Isn't that already hooked up to the ATSC?


Why would you hook up an antenna to a cable connector?

There are two inputs on the unit:
Antenna for NTSC/ATSC
Cable for analog and digital cable


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

jcblack said:


> I don't understand you guys who are defending the lack of composite/s-video input!
> 
> It can record analog (read: has an encoder) yet there is only one way to input it (via a modulated frequency?)??
> 
> There's no reason NOT to have s-video inputs.... other than this being all about TiVo wanting to please the industry. They've patched dreaded "analog hole"!!!


Oh geez, are you serious? *rolls eyes*

The only two external sources TiVo supports are cable boxes or satellite boxes. Since this unit handles analog and digital cable natively, connecting a cable box isn't the point. So that leaves satellite boxes. And since you could only record SD anyway, you may as well use an S2.

You're complaining about a tiny corner case, and there are good reasons NOT to do it. It adds cost to the unit to build it with the physical connectors and video circuitry to handle analog input. It also adds more cases to the software to handle for setup.

Since the Series2 isn't going away claiming their doing this to please the industry is just assinine.

If you want to record from an external receiver, buy a Series2. The Series3 is for the majority of the market who don't.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> So if you wanted an HD TiVO to record OTA, but still record the analog counterparts you would want an input.
> 
> This is such a stupid argument. You are saying "Your an idiot if want to record non-HD content." Yet most cable companies only offer 6-8 HD channels, so they designed the box to record SD *AND* HD content. It's all built right in, they just didn't add an input!
> 
> They are sucking up to the cable industry.


You need more tinfoil in your hat.

Sure, there are some people who might want to record OTA ATSC and SD from satellite - but if you think thats a significant market, you REALLY need more tinfoil. It isn't worth adding to the cost and complexity of the unit to go after the tiny corner cases. I can think of several *possible* configurations it doesn't address. But it just isn't worth going after the tiny market segments.

The Series2 is not being cancelled any time soon. The current cut off date for digital switch is early *2009*, and it may move again. Don't be so damn paranoid.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

If someone wants a DVR that can record ATSC and satellite they are going to go with a satellite DVR that can also record satellite HD.

I think Tivo is really smart to support simultaneous antenna and cable connection, the way the locals and cable like to fight I think there will be many times people will want to do that.

I wonder if a USB to Firewire adapter exists to allow archiving video to DVHS


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

tenthplanet said:


> Looks nice; I wish the ATSC tuners were a plug in option and not standard. It would save a few bucks for people who don't get over the air reception ( which why cable exists in the first place.)


Probably wouldn't save anything at all, most of the tuner chips now support 8VSB and QAM. The rest of the hardware is the same either way.

Based on what was posted here about the DirecTivo there are probably only two tuners where each supports analog/qam/8vsb.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

tbeckner said:


> If the Series 3 is a full functional (OnDemand and PPV, with a 2.0 CableCard) cable product, I am done with DirecTV after 11+ years.


CableCARD clarification... _multistream_ functionality has been ratified and is in the testing phase now for spring/summer availability I believe. _Bidirectional_ functionality is still being argued about and is at least a year away, probably more. Multistream allows one cable card to grab multiple streams of content for multiple tuners. _Bidreictional_ covers two way communication such as PPV/OnDemand. Don't get hung up on 1.0 versus 2.0 labels.

According to megazone, the TiVo will support newer _multistream_ cards when they are released.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

megazone said:


> You need more tinfoil in your hat.
> 
> Sure, there are some people who might want to record OTA ATSC and SD from satellite - but if you think thats a significant market, you REALLY need more tinfoil. It isn't worth adding to the cost and complexity of the unit to go after the tiny corner cases. I can think of several *possible* configurations it doesn't address. But it just isn't worth going after the tiny market segments.
> 
> The Series2 is not being cancelled any time soon. The current cut off date for digital switch is early *2009*, and it may move again. Don't be so damn paranoid.


Not paranoid. Just stating an opinion... It's not ruining my life or anything.... personally I disagree that it adds a big cost and complexity to the unit. It's minor.

But what's with the personal attacks? If I disagree with you so I have tinfoil in my hat? There are 15 million of us that subscribe to satellite, why? Because cable sucked. Cable is only halfway decent because of satellite...

Also TiVo didn't think I had 'tinfoil in my hat' 3 years ago when they had a prototype OTA ATSC SA TiVo capable of interfacing with Satellite or cable.

http://www.pbase.com/image/10792288

"The source of the HDTV signal may be ATSC terrestrial HD broadcasts or satellite HD broadcast. The platform will also be capable of encoding a standard definition analog signal from terrestrial antenna, cable or satellite, identical to current generation TiVo platform functionality. "

I believe the future is in OTA. Most of what I watch is broadcast, OTA HD is awesome and will be great once the analog is turned off. I love TiVo so I'm hopeful that either the series 2 will in the future have ATSC and support HD as well as satellite or the will add the functionality to the series3...

I just won't be switching to our current cable company, they really suck...


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

If you reeally want to get SD from satalite and HD from OTA and must have TiVo then buy two of them, one Series 2 and one Series 3.


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## tomthumb (Jan 23, 2002)

not sure if it's been discussed yet (i see the lack of s-video inputs discussed above), but why no HDMI or DV inputs so you can record from a directv hd receiver? 
there wouldn't be any decoding of the directv signal needed cuz that would be done by the hd receiver, yes?
either a gross oversight or someone must have in their ears asking/telling em not to be able to record via hdmi or dv...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

tomthumb said:


> not sure if it's been discussed yet (i see the lack of s-video inputs discussed above), but why no HDMI or DV inputs so you can record from a directv hd receiver?....


Geeesh...does _*anyone*_ read other posts before they submit?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

tomthumb said:


> not sure if it's been discussed yet (i see the lack of s-video inputs discussed above), but why no HDMI or DV inputs so you can record from a directv hd receiver?
> there wouldn't be any decoding of the directv signal needed cuz that would be done by the hd receiver, yes?
> either a gross oversight or someone must have in their ears asking/telling em not to be able to record via hdmi or dv...


At the point the signal is outputted via HDMI or DVI, it has been unencoded (and therefore uncompressed). In order to do this you would have to REencode it which is not practical at this time. This is one area TiVo IS smart...

To explain another way..

If you and I are standing at a river and see a baby in the water, I jump in the water and grab the baby. We see another and you jump in and grab a baby. Then we see three more. You jump out and I say "Where are you going? There's babies in the water!" You say.. "I'm going up river to find out who's throwing babies in the water..."

Ok, now I'm going off on a tangent, but the point is, go to the source!! Your source (unlike the series 2 which is analog in the first place) is digital. So it's stupid to uncompress the signal, then recompress it when you can start off with the digital source itself...


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## lajohn27 (Dec 29, 2003)

LOL - GREAT analogy Adam. I had to read it twice.. but the second time - I busted up laughing.


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## tomthumb (Jan 23, 2002)

I'm sorry Adam, I guess I still am not following your explaination.
Why couldn't there be an hdmi/dv input on the series 3 box?
It would accept the hdmi/dv output from say the H10 hd-dtv receiver.
It would then perform all the wonderful tivo functions we love and then output via hdmi/dv to the tv.

Am I missing/mudding a key point in the decoding/encoding process that makes this unreasonable?


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## tomthumb (Jan 23, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> So it's stupid to uncompress the signal, then recompress it when you can start off with the digital source itself...


Well, you're right - it would be stupid if DirecTV offered a box that performs and has the all the functions of a Tivo (Home-media/etc.), but they don't.
I'm happier with the price point and service of DTV rather than my local cable service.

So the only way to get HD Tivo in the future would be if the series 3 or above would/could record the HD feed from the H10 (or whatever HD DTV receiver)


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

tomthumb said:


> Am I missing/mudding a key point in the decoding/encoding process that makes this unreasonable?


Yes, its difficult, expensive undesirable and ultimatly silly.

If you wanted to record the uncompressed signal, it'd take about 10GB/min, you'd fit half an hour of it on an average disk. So you need to compress it. Compressors which could do that are reckoned to cost several $1000, just for the compressor component, then you have to put it in the box with the rest of the components. So you've just quadrupled the price of the box. Then you don't get the best quality. If you want to store a digital signal, you store the original, uncompressing and recompressing leads inevitably to a loss of quality. Its just a silly proposition to anyone who understands it.

This has been discussed ad nauseum before.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

tomthumb said:


> I'm sorry Adam, I guess I still am not following your explaination.
> Why couldn't there be an hdmi/dv input on the series 3 box?
> It would accept the hdmi/dv output from say the H10 hd-dtv receiver.
> It would then perform all the wonderful tivo functions we love and then output via hdmi/dv to the tv.
> ...


Ok, how about another analagy?

It's sort of like taking powdered milk, adding water to make it regular milk, and then turning it back into powered milk.

It's possible but not easy. It would take a lot of effort, a lot of cost, and use a lot of disk space. You can grab the already compressed signal and save it to the hard disk a lot easier. Maybe some day this will be possible, but it's not practical...

It's doable with SD only because you're dealing with 1/10th of the data...

What would REALLY be nice is if HD STB's could modulate the signal into a compressed ATSC signal instead of HDMI...


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

btwyx said:


> ...This has been discussed ad nauseum before.


...See post #160...


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Adam1115 said:


> It's sort of like taking powdered milk, adding water to make it regular milk, and then turning it back into powered milk.


I'm looking for a hack to turn lead into gold... did anyone see anything like that at CES? Water into wine would also be nice.  Speaking of off-topic beverage conversions, Slate's got the scoop on how to get stronger drinks at Starbucks for less money. The amount of expresso doesn't change, but milk and such is reduced: http://www.slate.com/id/2133754/?nav=ais


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## tomthumb (Jan 23, 2002)

btwyx's explaination made sense to me.
I didn't realizing re-compressing the dv signal was such a big deal.
well, maybe these compressors will get cheap as water in the coming days and make my setup a possibility.
or maybe dtv will get their act together and put together a competivtive hd-dvr and make this moot.
any takes on the odds of either of those to happen first???


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

tomthumb said:


> btwyx's explaination made sense to me.
> I didn't realizing re-compressing the dv signal was such a big deal.


I don't see how you could miss that discussion


> well, maybe these compressors will get cheap as water in the coming days and make my setup a possibility.


They may, its quite probable the price will go down, its then still undesirable and ultimatly silly.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

tomthumb said:


> I'm sorry Adam, I guess I still am not following your explaination.
> Why couldn't there be an hdmi/dv input on the series 3 box?
> It would accept the hdmi/dv output from say the H10 hd-dtv receiver.
> It would then perform all the wonderful tivo functions we love and then output via hdmi/dv to the tv.
> ...


A: The concept of the 648 S3 is to be specifically a cable/antenna DVR, doing away with the problems of A/V inputs and IR/Serial controls of STB, primarily to make a direct digital cable/ATSC recorder. Get over it. If you want to record from an existing satellite or cable receiver, use an S2 or its probable upcoming replacement.

B: as said, it would be technical, cost, and perhaps legally prohibitive.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

davezatz said:


> Funny... I was thinking the opposite. Why not make a box without CableCARD slots to save a few bucks since I'm not giving Comcast any more dough - I want my HD via OTA.


The market is too small for an ATSC only DVR. The money is in making a Cablecard unit. Remember, you don't have to use it with digital cable or a cablecard.


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## Rosenkavalier (Nov 9, 2001)

Just to get something off my chest: I keep reading about how analog signals will *all* disappear in 2009 with the ATSC transition. However, unless there's some more legislation out there that I haven't seen, the 2009 NTSC cutoff only applies to *broadcast* signals -- there is nothing that would prohibit any given cable co. from continuing to serve up NTSC analog signals through their coax lines 'till doomsday, if they thought it would be an advantage.

While there are a number of reasons to drop analog cable signals in favor of QAM-encoded digital (increased amounts of channels in the same frequency range), I think that some cable companies might consider leaving some 'legacy' chanels (like locals, municipal chanels, etc.) on analog as a 'lifeline' to the folks who continue to refuse to put a set-top-box on their TV sets. (Especially those systems that serve mainly older populations.)

Getting back to the Series 2: even if all of the cable co's go 100% digital, all of them (as well as the satellite and fiber-TV providers) will provide STB's that down-rez the signal to standard-def NTSC (again, to address the millions, if not tens of millions, of TVs that will still be in use in 2009 with only NTSC tuners). So as long as TiVo continues to keep up with the control codes for new cable, satellite and fiber-TV STB's, a Series 2 unit should work as a standard-def source indefinitely.


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## dmdeane (Apr 17, 2000)

I agree with Rosenkavalier. Even assuming 2009 is the definite "end of the line" for OTA NTSC broadcasts, analog cable isn't going away right away and there will still be scores of millions of older non-ATSC TVs out there requiring (and using!) converter boxes, chugging away until the end of their natural lifespans. TiVo series 2 boxes therefore will remain highly useful (and cheap) for many years to come.

Hmmmm....I wonder if a combination TiVo Series2/ATSC converter box would be practical for the converter box market....just thinking out loud....nevermind.

And pardon my ignorance but is 2009 really the definite end of the line for OTA NTSC? I have not been keeping current with the law, but last I heard there was a requirement that 85% of a given market had to be capable of receiving ATSC before the NTSC broadcast could be shut off. Has the law/regulation been changed in this regard? Are God knows how many tens of millions of NTSC TV owners going to be required to buy converter boxes come 2009? I have some vague memory about the 2009 date but I confess I wasn't paying attention.  

Somehow I think there's going to be quite a political ruckus come 2009 if millions of unhappy TV watchers start writing their Congressmen complaining about having to buy converter boxes. I know they've talked about subsidizing the cost of these boxes, but still...this could get messy. 

Anyway, whenever the OTA NTSC broadcast goes away, does not mean the end of the older NTSC TV sets which will be with us in large numbers for the next 10-20 years. Plenty of time for TiVo Series 2 boxes to remain useful.

Many people on this forum have "early adopter disease". Most people aren't going to be bleeding edge consumers; old tech has a much longer life than we want to realize.


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## DCIFRTHS (Jan 6, 2000)

dmdeane said:


> .... Somehow I think there's going to be quite a political ruckus come 2009 if millions of unhappy TV watchers start writing their Congressmen complaining about having to buy converter boxes. I know they've talked about subsidizing the cost of these boxes, but still...this could get messy. ...


I read that there are going to be "vouchers" available, for the converter boxes, to families that request them.

Of course, if the admistration is of the same philosophy as the current one, then the "vouchers" will only be available to high income families


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## shaown (Jul 1, 2002)

Umm, for those that want to record SD-Satellite (D* at least) and HD OTA... Simply purchases D* HR10-250 Tivo. It will will always do that (at least for the forseeable future. Of course HD-Satellite will stop workign eventually as them move to MPEG-4 continues.
So its quite simple really 
SD-Cable only - Series 2 SA, or Series 3 (overkill)
SD-Satellite - Series 2 DirectTivo or Series 2 SA
SD-Satellite + HD-OTA - Series 2 HD DirecTivo (HR10-250) - D* Only
SD-Satellite + HD-Satellite/OTA - HR10-250 -> Not a good long term option
SD-Cable+HD-Cable+HD-OTA - Series 3

Thx,
-Shaown


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## Rosenkavalier (Nov 9, 2001)

Over in another Series 3 thread, I saw this post by *dt_dc*: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3659794&&#post3659794

I wasn't aware that DVRs were included in the ATSC tuner mandate for hardware. As noted, this means that TiVo will have to stop selling current NTSC-only Series 2 units in early 2007. However, TiVo can (and probably will) support these 'legacy' units for the forseeable future, as they will continue to work with satellite and cable STBs.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

dmdeane said:


> Even assuming 2009 is the definite "end of the line" for OTA NTSC broadcasts, analog cable isn't going away right away (...)


Analog cable certainly isn't going to suddenly die. It will "slowly fade away". First will come analog/digital simulcast (ADS). One or two analog channels may have to go digital only for that. Then ... well, every once in a while an analog channel (or two) will get moved to digital-only ...
"Starting next month, the Golf Channel will no longer be available in our 'Extended Basic' analog tier, it will be part of our 'Digital Sports' tier. In addition, we are adding Golf-HD, Golf2, the WPGA Channel, and Golf-On-Demand."


dmdeane said:


> And pardon my ignorance but is 2009 really the definite end of the line for OTA NTSC?


The House and Senate have both passed a Feb. 17, 2009 "hard date". The Bills are in reconciliation committee ... but the differences are in things like set-top subsidies and how the $$ from the sale of the analog spectrum gets allocated. The Feb. 17, 2009 hard date seems about as close to a done deal as you're going to get.


dmdeane said:


> Somehow I think there's going to be quite a political ruckus come 2009 if millions of unhappy TV watchers start writing their Congressmen complaining about having to buy converter boxes.


Note the 2009 date ... just _after_ the 2008 elections. Just think about the number of ways candidates can promise to spend that $$ (from the analog spectrum sale) in the 2008 elections. Tax cuts AND additional spending ... a politician's dream. By the 2010 (mid-term) elections ... it'll be a distant memory.


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## plissken99 (Apr 6, 2003)

I am finally close to getting an HD Tivo, since the DirectTV price is now down to $399 for the Tivo, the dish and 2 other recievers. The question is, what advantages does the Series 3 Tivo have over the HR10-250? And will it be much more expensive?


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## raianoat (Jan 27, 2004)

Nobody really knows how expensive it will be .


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## ellinj (Feb 26, 2002)

plissken99 said:


> I am finally close to getting an HD Tivo, since the DirectTV price is now down to $399 for the Tivo, the dish and 2 other recievers. The question is, what advantages does the Series 3 Tivo have over the HR10-250? And will it be much more expensive?


There will be many advantages of the Directtv unit. The question is do you want Directtv or cable. If I could get Directtv I would have already gone that route, but I have cable so I am waiting with baited breath for the s3


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## plissken99 (Apr 6, 2003)

Well I already have Direct TV, with an old Tivo unit(the first dual channel one I believe). I haven't upgraded to HD because I can't live without a Tivo, and the HD Tivo until recently has been far too expensive.

So the question remains, what advantage does the S3 have that should make me wait longer?


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## ellinj (Feb 26, 2002)

plissken99 said:


> Well I already have Direct TV, with an old Tivo unit(the first dual channel one I believe). I haven't upgraded to HD because I can't live without a Tivo, and the HD Tivo until recently has been far too expensive.
> 
> So the question remains, what advantage does the S3 have that should make me wait longer?


If your staying with Directtv don't wait. The s3 will be incompatible with any of the satellite providers. If you are looking for advantages to s3, a few might be Tivo To Go, Multiroom Viewing, External Hard drive port, etc. Basically many of the features that are available on the series 2 that still aren't available to Directtv customers.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

plissken99 said:


> I am finally close to getting an HD Tivo, since the DirectTV price is now down to $399 for the Tivo, the dish and 2 other recievers. The question is, what advantages does the Series 3 Tivo have over the HR10-250? And will it be much more expensive?


The Series3 will not work with DirecTV - so if you're not willing to change to cable, it isn't an option for you.

If you are willing to convert to cable, then the S3 gives you the same dual-tuner capabilities, and the capability to record ATSC OTA as well - but it also gives you the ability to record NTSC OTA which the DTV doesn't.

The S3 also supports networking, which gives you TiVoToGo, music and photos, web based scheduling, multi-room viewing, Home Media Engine, online content (Yahoo, Fandango, etc), and broadband content.

It also supports MPEG-4 and VC-1, which the DTV box doesn't, supporting more types of content.


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## plissken99 (Apr 6, 2003)

Thats all I needed to know. I'll go ahead as planned with the current HD-Tivo.

Thanks!


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

megazone said:


> The S3 also supports networking, which gives you TiVoToGo, music and photos, web based scheduling, multi-room viewing, Home Media Engine, online content (Yahoo, Fandango, etc), and broadband content.
> 
> It also supports MPEG-4 and VC-1, which the DTV box doesn't, supporting more types of content.


Sorry, No TTG or MRV


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

MediaLivingRoom said:


> Sorry, No TTG or MRV


You are officially out of control. Bringing up a thread that was last posted to on 1/19/06 (8 months ago!!) just to say that!


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

BlackBetty said:


> You are officially out of control. Bringing up a thread that was last posted to on 1/19/06 (8 months ago!!) just to say that!


ok, I'll take a break now.


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