# Game of Thrones 5.24.15 The Gift



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

It's almost like it was s bad idea to hand the keys to the castle to s bunch of religious fanatics. I guess now we see what Tommen is made of. He better partner up with the queen if thorns, quick.

Seems like Jamie nearly outed himself to his daughter.

That was some precise timing on the deadly poison.

Glad Mormont finally caught up with Daenerys. PLEASE TAKE THE GIFT.

Poor Sansa. Her one hope dashed. I guess now she really knows just how brainwashed Theon is. Like I said last thread though, to think that is as bad as it gets shows a real lack of imagination. And if there's anything Ramsey doesn't lack for it's imagination.

I almost forgot Sam! One narrowly avoided rape and he got his cherry popped. Bravo. Nice timing, Ghost. Should have listened and gotten south of the wall. With Jon gone it's no place for Sam or his little family.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Cersei learns that like her, Karma is a b*h.

That was some decent tension or whether Mormont would get Daenerys' attention before she left.

We finally see Lady Terrel and Littlefinger admit that they killed Jeffy.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> Cersei learns that like her, Karma is a b*h.


It's not even karma; it's just plain stupidity.

Did she seriously think it was a good idea to leak other people's sexual improprieties to the Inquisition considering the many sexual bodies she has in her own closet, metaphorically speaking (and almost literally)?

Well, yes. Clearly, she did. Hence stupidity.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> .Seems like Jamie nearly outed himself to his daughter.


Sorry,but I don't follow you. I even rewatched that part and aren't sure what you are referring to.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I was (pleasantly) surprised there was a GOT today, haven't the skipped Memorial Day in years past?


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

SullyND said:


> I was (pleasantly) surprised there was a GOT today, haven't the skipped Memorial Day in years past?


It aired on Memorial Day weekend in seasons 1 and 2 and the ratings dropped quite a bit so they skipped it for seasons 3 and 4. I don't know why they went back this year. Maybe they think it's popular enough not to worry about it now, but it will be curious to see what the ratings will be for tonight.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Sorry,but I don't follow you. I even rewatched that part and aren't sure what you are referring to.


I thought it was very well done. Jaime looks like he's about to say something (I'm your father, perhaps?) but then stops himself.

Cersei was even stupid enough to go to the High Sparrow minus her guards. She would have still ended up in jail, but at least a few of those nuts would have died doing so.

I think that one sand snake had an amazing body. Bronn is one lucky dude if he ends up alive and with her.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

At least Sam will stop asking Jon what's it's like to get laid!


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

GAH! Theon Greyjoy is USELESS!!


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Anubys said:


> At least Sam will stop asking Jon what's it's like to get laid!


Sam broke his Watch vows fer reals, too.

Bronn learned who the most beautiful woman in the world is. I was half expecting that the antidote was the real poison.

Who was the kindly giant who broke Tyrion's chains?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

It was so poetic seeing this all happen after hearing Cersei earlier this season lecturing Jamie about how he never thinks through the consequences. 

As the high sparrow is sitting there talking about what secrets she may have to uncover, she sits there smiling as if without a care in the world. I tried to do a Ralph Wiggam/Lisa Simpson take on it, where I pinpoint the exact second when it dawns on her. I really can't tell if she was oblivious until she saw Lancel, or if she started to realize it earlier and was just putting on a game face and thinking "oh man, I hope he's not talking about what I think he's talking about".

Also kudos to the producers. I love when they manage to misdirect us with the episode title


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> It was so poetic seeing this all happen after hearing Cersei earlier this season lecturing Jamie about how he never thinks through the consequences.


I'm remembering how Tywin told her hat she's not as smart as she thinks she is. Dad was right.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

MikeAndrews said:


> Sam broke his Watch vows fer reals, too.


Sam would beg to differ. The vows CLEARLY state  that they shall take no wife. There's nothing there about good old humping with random women!


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> GAH! Theon Greyjoy is USELESS!!


His name is Reek.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> We finally see Lady Terrel and Littlefinger admit that they killed Jeffy.


They already admitted it, albeit separately.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> I really can't tell if she was oblivious until she saw Lancel, or if she started to realize it earlier and was just putting on a game face and thinking "oh man, I hope he's not talking about what I think he's talking about".


Can someone remind me as to who that guy Lancel was and his connection to Cersei?


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

getreal said:


> Can someone remind me as to who that guy Lancel was and his connection to Cersei?


He's her cousin (Tywin's brother's son).

During season one, he was Robert's squire. When Cersei feared that Ned was going to tell Robert the truth about the children, she encouraged Robert to go hunting and had Lancel keep Robert extremely drunk during the trip. Because he was so drunk, Robert was gored by a boar and eventually died from the wounds.

Also, when Jaime went away to war, Lancel was like a brother to Cersei (if you know what I mean).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> GAH! Theon Greyjoy is USELESS!!


I think Ramsay would disagree with you...


----------



## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Sam broke his Watch vows fer reals, too.


Not really. Last season they made a point of emphasizing that the vow states that brothers of the black watch may not "take a wife". There is nothing in the vow that _explicitly _prohibits casual sex. They even said something to the effect of: "If all brothers who visit the brothel in town were to be executed, there'd be nobody left to guard the wall."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Although Sam's relationship with Gilly has become increasingly marital, in all but name...


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I thought it was very well done. Jaime looks like he's about to say something (I'm your father, perhaps?) but then stops himself.


Yep. I thought he was going to break out the big guns to convince her to come with him.


MikeAndrews said:


> Who was the kindly giant who broke Tyrion's chains?


That was great. "Stand back, you pathetic little man. I got this."


LordKronos said:


> Also kudos to the producers. I love when they manage to misdirect us with the episode title


I didn't make note of the title until after the episode (to start this thread!) What did you think it meant?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> Yep. I thought he was going to break out the big guns to convince her to come with him.
> 
> That was great. "Stand back, you pathetic little man. I got this."
> 
> I didn't make note of the title until after the episode (to start this thread!) What did you think it meant?


The Gift is the name of the lands immediately south of the wall the was given to the nights watch. Its where the wildlings are supposed to live after Jon let's them through the wall. Its also possibly where Stannis is right now (I'm not clear how far south he's made it yet). As for what specifically I thought would happen there...no idea. I just thought that's what it was referring to.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I love Bronn, but it makes no sense why the Sand Snake would give him the antidote.

Also makes no sense that Cersi would go anywhere without her Guards, except that it is easier to incarcerate her.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Who's seal was on that scroll?


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I love Bronn, but it makes no sense why the Sand Snake would give him the antidote.


 Why not? She likes him.



Jstkiddn said:


> Who's seal was on that scroll?


 I had the same question! My wife thought it might have been a sparrow, but it doesn't seem like their style. I guess we'll find out in the next episode (or so).

My question is who was the "young man" that Littlefinger said he discussed with Cersei? Was it Ramsay? It seems odd to refer to him that way.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> The Gift is the name of the lands immediately south of the wall the was given to the nights watch. Its where the wildlings are supposed to live after Jon let's them through the wall. Its also possibly where Stannis is right now (I'm not clear how far south he's made it yet). As for what specifically I thought would happen there...no idea. I just thought that's what it was referring to.


And, of course, Tyrion...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Who's seal was on that scroll?


Im pretry aure that was the mockingbird, Littlefingers sigil. That's why Olenna looked a bit annoyed, and then met with him shortly after


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> The Gift is the name of the lands immediately south of the wall the was given to the nights watch. Its where the wildlings are supposed to live after Jon let's them through the wall. Its also possibly where Stannis is right now (I'm not clear how far south he's made it yet). As for what specifically I thought would happen there...no idea. I just thought that's what it was referring to.


I didn't know that, thanks!


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

A very good criticism from Forbes. I totally agree that this season hasn't been the best and Dorne is a big part of the problem.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...s-biggest-problem-isnt-the-boltons-its-dorne/


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bob Coxner said:


> A very good criticism from Forbes. I totally agree that this season hasn't been the best and Dorne is a big part of the problem.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...s-biggest-problem-isnt-the-boltons-its-dorne/


It's hard to argue with this. I still hold out a little hope that they've just short-changed that story arc so far, that future episodes will lean more heavily on Dorne and make it clear why this is all actually interesting. But that hope is dwindling.

That said, the TV show has done a masterful job in every other respect when it comes to trimming the endless meanderings of the books down into a taut, forward-moving story. By now, as far as I'm concerned the show has clearly surpassed the books in quality. The first couple of books were untouchable, but the deeper we get into Martin's endless middle, the better a job the show does of avoiding that.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I'm a non-reader and so far, for me, this is the weakest of the 5 seasons. And with only three episodes left, I doubt it will get better. We shall see. I am still enjoying it though.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

madscientist said:


> My question is who was the "young man" that Littlefinger said he discussed with Cersei? Was it Ramsay? It seems odd to refer to him that way.


My guess is Littlefinger told the queen of thorns about Lancel and she turned the table on Cersei.

Stannis is, as Bronn would say, Fooked. I was right about Mellisandre having a plan to kill Shirin. I wonder if she will still do it behind Stannis' back.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Bob Coxner said:


> A very good criticism from Forbes. I totally agree that this season hasn't been the best and Dorne is a big part of the problem.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...s-biggest-problem-isnt-the-boltons-its-dorne/


You might want to add a warning for non-book readers about how much book vs show there is in that article.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cherry ghost said:


> You might want to add a warning for non-book readers about how much book vs show there is in that article.


I personally don't mind book vs show difference, but don't want to read anything that might spoil future plots. About halfway through that article it had a "book spoilers ahead' warning so I didn't read any further. If anyone did, are they actually future spoilers or just book differences?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I personally don't mind book vs show difference, but don't want to read anything that might spoil future plots. About halfway through that article it had a "book spoilers ahead' warning so I didn't read any further. If anyone did, are they actually future spoilers or just book differences?


Don't read it


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

gossamer88 said:


> I'm a non-reader and so far, for me, this is the weakest of the 5 seasons. And with only three episodes left, I doubt it will get better. We shall see. I am still enjoying it though.


Yeah, this is the worst of the seasons so far, IMHO, which fortunately is better than 98% of anything else on TV.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

The books also "suffer" from this imo, as this is technically the end of the middle, not the start of the end, so oftentimes in stories the middle is considered the most "weak". 

I thought this episode was a good one though, and loved the Cersei scene where she is taken away. Was still hoping Sansa would kill Ramsey, but I know that isn't going to happen quite so cleanly. Stannis being stopped by the snowstorm is what I expected, given the Winterfell advantage and his loss of men, I wonder how he is going to win - perhaps Brienne still plays into this and helps Stannis, right before killing him  Something like that would be interesting.

Felt both sad and glad for Sam during the episode! Nice to see him stand up after getting a beating but then laughed when they ran from Ghost and his eyes rolled back into his head from the concussion!

I'm very interested to see how the Dany/Tyrion plot plays out, I didn't expect them to be together quite so soon - and I wonder if Mormont will somehow escape her death sentence because of Tyrion or how that all works!


----------



## stark (Dec 31, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Sam broke his Watch vows fer reals, too.


Sam and Jon talked about this earlier. The vows say they won't marry or father children.

As long as Gilly isn't pregnant, Sam hasn't technically broken his vows.

EDIT: Refresh before you post....


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anubys said:


> My guess is Littlefinger told the queen of thorns about Lancel and she turned the table on Cersei.


So all that stuff the High Sparrow said about Lancel confessing his sins over time and finally digging down to the bottom--you're not buying that? I was wondering if they hadn't known the Cersei stuff all along.



cherry ghost said:


> You might want to add a warning for non-book readers about how much book vs show there is in that article.


Since by definition a spoiler is info from any source other than the show, that is obviously a spoiler. However, since Cherry mentioned that there was a lot of book vs show stuff in it, I decided to read it, and it's very interesting if you've read the books. So thanks, spoiler police. 

Did the Sand Snakes say what they were going to do with Marcella? I'm not really sure why they are so into revenge. Oberon went into a fight to the death voluntarily and basically he was the one who cheated with his poison . And as far as they know, the Mountain is dead, as is Tywin. Who are they mad at?


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Did the Sand Snakes say what they were going to do with Marcella? I'm not really sure why they are so into revenge. Oberon went into a fight to the death voluntarily and basically he was the one who cheated with his poison . And as far as they know, the Mountain is dead, as is Tywin. Who are they mad at?


I got the impression the mistress (Elleria?) has a real revenge streak going. Just the fact her boyfriend died on a trip to King's Landing is enough for her. So she's poisoned her Sand Snakes with that same bitterness.

They want to send Myrcella back to King's Landing a little bit at a time.

Sounds like the Prince of Dorne is the only one who has any sense at all. Because if Myrcella was to be sent back in pieces, the wrath of Westeros would come down on Dorne.

Having said that, it appears the wrath of Westeros is currently in a bit of upheaval, and may not be such a terrible thing right now. With a King who can't put on his underwear by himself, and his allies mostly not allied, the wrath of Westeros is mostly strong language. If that.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Hey, Cercei. Hahahahahahhahaahhahahahhaha!

Now I hope Sansa kills Reek fifteen minutes after she kills Ramsay.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

What did Sansa grab while she was on the battlements?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

BeanMeScot said:


> What did Sansa grab while she was on the battlements?


It looked like an awl or a corkscrew. Maybe a crude hand drill? Not sure what it was doing there. Maybe it is for opening the bung in those barrels?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

john4200 said:


> It looked like an awl or a corkscrew. Maybe a crude hand drill? Not sure what it was doing there. Maybe it is for opening the bung in those barrels?


Whatever it was, it was pointy and sharp.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Hey, Cercei. Hahahahahahhahaahhahahahhaha!
> 
> Now I hope Sansa kills Reek fifteen minutes after she kills Ramsay.


I think Theon will be redeemed. Since he didn't actually kill her brothers.



Jstkiddn said:


> Whatever it was, it was pointy and sharp.


Mr Pointy?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> So all that stuff the High Sparrow said about Lancel confessing his sins over time and finally digging down to the bottom--you're not buying that? I was wondering if they hadn't known the Cersei stuff all along.


It's plausible. But the show seems to have done a good job of making it look like what I'm saying is more likely.

1. The previously on showed LF meet Lancel. Why?
2. Olena was looking for an angle to get back at Cersei
3. LF says to Olena that he is giving her the same boy he gave Cersei (or something to that effect)
4. Right after that, they cut to the scene where Cersei eventually gets caught.

It was all too neatly wrapped as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

You're probably right. I didn't catch #3--I'll have to rewatch.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

So glad Bronn didn't die. But slow poison in a fight is about as smart as prancing around your downed opponent before he's dead.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's not even karma; it's just plain stupidity.
> 
> Did she seriously think it was a good idea to leak other people's sexual improprieties to the Inquisition considering the many sexual bodies she has in her own closet, metaphorically speaking (and almost literally)?
> 
> Well, yes. Clearly, she did. Hence stupidity.


Yeah, she set this in motion knowing Lancel was in their club. She's so convinced that she's untouchable. She went out screaming "I'm the Queen!". We heard that last week, too.



Anubys said:


> My guess is Littlefinger told the queen of thorns about Lancel and she turned the table on Cersei.





stellie93 said:


> So all that stuff the High Sparrow said about Lancel confessing his sins over time and finally digging down to the bottom--you're not buying that? I was wondering if they hadn't known the Cersei stuff all along.


Yeah. I see it as Lancel confessed all that before Cersei even unleashed The Faith. Ever since she did empower them, Pop Sparrow has been waiting for a good moment to grab Cersei. I'd like to go back and watch for his reaction to being empowered.



Robin said:


> I think Theon will be redeemed. Since he didn't actually kill her brothers.


He killed a bunch of other Winterfell folks, though. The best he can hope for is a quick death.


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

well. 

I thought The Gift referred to Bailish and the young man he mentioned to Oleanna (Emma Peel) and I thought the young man was Lancel.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Cainebj said:


> well.
> 
> I thought The Gift referred to Bailish and the young man he mentioned to Oleanna (Emma Peel) and I thought the young man was Lancel.


The "gift" that was explicitly mentioned in the episode was Tyrion...


----------



## MonsterJoe (Feb 19, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The "gift" that was explicitly mentioned in the episode was Tyrion...


Once more, with feeling, maybe.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> GAH! Theon Greyjoy is USELESS!!


His father certainly agrees with this statement.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

JYoung said:


> His father certainly agrees with this statement.


as do the ladies


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

tlc said:


> He killed a bunch of other Winterfell folks, though. The best he can hope for is a quick death.


Theon can kill Ramsay and then kill himself. Everybody wins, including us.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Anubys said:


> It's plausible. But the show seems to have done a good job of making it look like what I'm saying is more likely.
> 
> 1. The previously on showed LF meet Lancel. Why?
> 2. Olena was looking for an angle to get back at Cersei
> ...


 Littlefinger definitely said he was giving a _different_ young man to Oleanna than he did to Cersei. Maybe he told Cersei about the squire used to implicate Loras, and he tole Oleanna about Lancel.

However, it really did seem to me like the sparrows already knew all about Lancel's confession, going back a while. This whole thing is strange (or badly written) to me: it doesn't seem in-character for the High Sparrow to either (a) delay imprisoning Cersei if he knew she was guilty, or (b) lie to Cersei about when or how he had learned about her interactions with Lancel. Yet clearly one of these must be the case.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> The "gift" that was explicitly mentioned in the episode was Tyrion...


Tyrion was referred to as "THE gift", but Littlefinger also made mention of "A gift" to Lady Olenna (presumably referring to Lancel).

And speaking of that interaction:


> Littlefinger: I have a gift for you.
> Lady Olenna: What kind of gift?
> Littlefinger: The same kind I gave Cersei. A handsome young man.


What is he referring to (young man he gave Cersei)? At first I thought he mean Lancel, but certainly HE did not supply Cersei with Lansel. Is he talking about Ramsay? Because that would be an odd way to phrase it, since he hasn't actually done anything yet...just offered to take care of it.

The only conclusion I can come to is that it was Littlefinger who offered up Loras' lover to Cersei. I suppose that would be right up Littlefinger's alley...secretly stabbing his ally (the Tyrells) in the back even while he's still plotting with them.

But back to his gift to Lady Olenna...is he REALLY referring to Lancel? Yes, the timing of events in the episode lead to that conclusion, but as has discussed here, Lancel seemed to be confessing to the sparrows all on his own, and surely there was no need for Littlefinger to be involved in any of that (unless Lancel was still holding back from the Sparrows, and this was just to prompt him to give up ALL of the details). So is his "gift" actually referring to someone we haven't yet seen? Ex: could Littlefinger know where Gendry is and is offering him up to help challenge Tommen's legitimacy? That seems a little weak though as he can't provide any sort of direct testimony to anything. On the other hand, we certainly did have a subtle Gendry re-mention this epsiode when stannis mentioned the leaches.

Also I did a frame by frame analysis of what Sansa picked up. In one frame, you can clearly see it's a corkscrew. I can try to get a screen capture later.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

madscientist said:


> Maybe he told Cersei about the squire used to implicate Loras, and he tole Oleanna about Lancel.


Ah, you beat me to it. I've got to learn not to leave the reply-to-post page open for an hour before getting around to typing my reply 



madscientist said:


> it doesn't seem in-character for the High Sparrow to either (a) delay imprisoning Cersei if he knew she was guilty, or (b) lie to Cersei about when or how he had learned about her interactions with Lancel. Yet clearly one of these must be the case.


Not really
1) Lancel joins sparrows and starts confessing little by little.
2) Littlefinger tells Olenna about Lancel
3) Olenna talks to Lancel and says "look how Cersei is manipulating you guys into doing her dirty work...you've got to come clean about her
4) Lancel tells the high sparrow
5) He immediately arranges to have Cersei arrested

The question in all of this is, how does Littlefinger actually know about Cersei and Lancel? Maybe he didn't...maybe all he had was suspicions about Robert's death.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Olena might have made a deal. Take Cersei, be lenient on my grandchildren, and I will support your move against Cersei.

Now, the High Sparrow doesn't seem like the kind to make a deal like that, but he can't keep his power without some support. And if he were willing to turn on Cersei, he must have support from someone.

Worst case, Olena told the HS that he is a hypocrite and demanded that Cersei is treated equally. Either way, I have very little doubt that LF meant Lancel when talking to Olena.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I was laughing my head off about Cersi! What goes around comes around.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

allan said:


> I was laughing my head off about Cersi! What goes around comes around.


What is really wonderful is that she would have been safe but for her desire to revel in her enemy's misery and going into the Lion's den to gloat.

Watching the Sand Snake and Bronn scene again, I was startled to realize that a woman can be sexy and beautiful even with short hair


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> The Gift is the name of the lands immediately south of the wall the was given to the nights watch. Its where the wildlings are supposed to live after Jon let's them through the wall. Its also possibly where Stannis is right now (I'm not clear how far south he's made it yet). As for what specifically I thought would happen there...no idea. I just thought that's what it was referring to.


Should be spoilered.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, and I don't understand why people complain about the poisoned blades and say it's not a good way to win a fight.

Of course it's not. If you win, the poison is not relevant (the other guy is dead). But if you lose, you still get your revenge because the guy that killed you will die a slow and painful death.

Makes sense to me!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> Should be spoilered.


Huh?

That's all been said or implied on the show...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> Should be spoilered.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Huh?
> 
> That's all been said or implied on the show...


Seriously. If the post was meant as a joke. Then "zoom" me.

But that seemed like a trolling post to me. Trying to create another debate about spoilers for no reason and just trying to derail the thread.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> *The Gift is the name of the lands immediately south of the wall the was given to the nights watch.* Its where the wildlings are supposed to live after Jon let's them through the wall. Its also possibly where Stannis is right now (I'm not clear how far south he's made it yet). As for what specifically I thought would happen there...no idea. I just thought that's what it was referring to.





Shaunnick said:


> Should be spoilered.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> Huh?
> 
> That's all been said or implied on the show...


I was referring to the bold. Trying to be funny, which is why I added the shrug image.

It fail flat, soooooooooooo...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Should be spoilered.


Oh, a challenge, eh?

Season 3, episode 9 (just before Bran and company take shelter in the tower, before the wildlings and Jon show up



> Where are we?
> The Gift, I think. Brandon the Builder gave all this land south of the Wall to the Night's Watch for their sustenance and support. Maester Luwin taught me that.
> Doesn't seem to be supporting anyone at the moment.
> It's good land, and there's no war up here.
> ...


Sorry, but if you haven't finished watching season 3 yet, you shouldn't be reading a season 5 thread  It was also brought up again this season (ep 5) when Jon was discussing where the wildlings could live.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Shaunnick said:


> It fail flat, soooooooooooo...


Dr. Freud. Paging Dr. Sigmund Freud.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> So is his "gift" actually referring to someone we haven't yet seen? Ex: could Littlefinger know where Gendry is and is offering him up to help challenge Tommen's legitimacy?


Gendry is a bastard, and has no claim to anything. Zero. Claim.



Shaunnick said:


> Should be spoilered.
> 
> 
> Shaunnick said:
> ...


Well, if this leads to the death of spoiler jokes, then maybe it will serve some purpose.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Gendry is a bastard, and has no claim to anything. Zero. Claim.


No, I didn't say that. I said to challenge his legitimacy. Ie: to provide some sort of evidence about Robert's children. Presumably that's why Jon Arryn was trying to track down all the bastards, and why Joffrey had them all killed.

Like I said (in the part of my quote you trimmed): "That seems a little weak though as he can't provide any sort of direct testimony to anything."


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't think it's going to happen this way but the High Sparrow's head should be on a pike and every one of his followers killed within 15 minutes of Tommen finding out that his mother and his wife are imprisoned. What are his imperial guards doing during this religious uprising anyway? He seems to have no military advisors.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> What are his imperial guards doing during this religious uprising anyway?


Waiting for his order



> He seems to have no military advisors.


That would be Tywin's role, and as we've seen, Cersei is more interest in SHRINKING the small council than in adding to it ("The small council grows smaller and smaller"). At this point, who IS on the small council? Cersei, Mace Tyrell (currently on a trip to to Bravos supposedly, possibly returning in a box), Pycell, and Qyburn. Is that it?


----------



## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

So one of the Sand Snakes was so turned on by Bronn's singing she takes her clothes off and gives him the antidote? Some one tell me a three year old didn't write this crap.I thought The Sand worms swore vengeance on the Lannisters. 

The events in Dorne are the worst thing in possibly the worst season of this show.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Barmat said:


> So one of the Sand Snakes was so turned on by Bronn's singing she takes her clothes off and gives him the antidote? Some one tell me a three year old didn't write this crap.I thought The Sand worms swore vengeance on the Lannisters.
> 
> The events in Dorne are the worst thing in possibly the worst season of this show.


The people of Dorne are interested in doing only 2 things.

Seems like they fit the stereotype perfectly.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Barmat said:


> So one of the Sand Snakes was so turned on by Bronn's singing she takes her clothes off and gives him the antidote?


The clothing thing was clearly just her screwing with him. As for why she saves him...maybe she's thinking he might come in handy if they want to escape.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> That would be Tywin's role, and as we've seen, Cersei is more interest in SHRINKING the small council than in adding to it ("The small council grows smaller and smaller"). At this point, who IS on the small council? Cersei, Mace Tyrell (currently on a trip to to Bravos supposedly, possibly returning in a box), Pycell, and Qyburn. Is that it?


Kevan Lannister was briefly, but he went back to Casterly Rock.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Oh, and I don't understand why people complain about the poisoned blades and say it's not a good way to win a fight.
> 
> Of course it's not. If you win, the poison is not relevant (the other guy is dead). But if you lose, you still get your revenge because the guy that killed you will die a slow and painful death.
> 
> Makes sense to me!


I complained about a _slow_ poison in a fight. A _fast_ poison would help you win the fight and live.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

IIRC, there have been comments dating back to Jon Aryn's death about poison being a cowardly way of killing someone. I would guess that the Sandsnakes would not want to use a fast acting poison to help them defeat someone in combat, but have no problem leaving them with a parting gift that will only take hold should the Sandsnake fail to win the fight in the first place.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Another disadvantage of a fast acting poison is that if you accidentally poison yourself in the battle, you're screwed.


----------



## KevinG (Sep 3, 2003)

3D said:


> IIRC, there have been comments dating back to Jon Aryn's death about poison being a cowardly way of killing someone. I would guess that the Sandsnakes would not want to use a fast acting poison to help them defeat someone in combat, but have no problem leaving them with a *parting gift* that will only take hold should the Sandsnake fail to win the fight in the first place.


Ah ha! Another possible meaning for the episode title!


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Well played, sir!


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

I just watched a behind the scenes look at this episode and a point was raised I thought interesting. Not a spoiler...just an observation.

Aomen Targaryen <sp?> is the first natural death we've seen in the series? The only one that has simply died of old age.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Barmat said:


> Some one tell me a three year old didn't write this crap.


It was Adam Friedberg, 13 year old boy

http://gawker.com/5902076/snl-explains-the-nudity-in-game-of-thrones


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Aemon Targaryen <sp?> is the first natural death we've seen in the series? The only one that has simply died of old age.


Good lord, you're right!

HE WAS POISONED!!


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

The sand snake hottie in jail took off her clothes and was tempting Bronn in order to get him "turned on". When things heat up the heart beat rises and that slow poison is now on the fast track to the brain. 

Looks like Sansa is going to have to put a corkscrew in Ramsey herself. Hope she is fast and strong, not slow, calculated, and clumsy.

Will Stannis sacrifice his daughter to win the war? Seems like his options are pretty crappy here. Winter appears to be there, not coming soon.

Cersei's plot was so obvious from the beginning. I was hoping for a twist but that seemed like the inevitable conclusion to her giving so much power to a religious group while hiding so many secrets herself. 

Sam should have died from that beating.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

nickels said:


> Looks like Sansa is going to have to put a corkscrew in Ramsey herself. Hope she is fast and strong, not slow, calculated, and clumsy.


Hope she does it in some public place, where the North can see it.



nickels said:


> Will Stannis sacrifice his daughter to win the war?


IMO that would be out of character for him, and I think that the scene before with them in the father/daughter moment showed how much he cares for her above all else. I don't see him going that direction.



nickels said:


> Sam should have died from that beating.


Nah, he had a good concussion, I think that was appropriate


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought Ser Alliser was going to step in and prevent the attempted rape. The direwolf could have made a faster appearance. Sam got the poop beat out of him.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> Not really
> 1) Lancel joins sparrows and starts confessing little by little.
> 2) Littlefinger tells Olenna about Lancel
> 3) Olenna talks to Lancel and says "look how Cersei is manipulating you guys into doing her dirty work...you've got to come clean about her
> ...


So this big sinner--Lancel--goes to the sparrows and confesses a little, then a little more --weeks go by and then he confesses murder and adultery. And now he's one of their leaders as it seems. All you have to do is confess, and you're home free???

Lancel and Cersei wasn't a very well kept secret. Tyrion knew about it and anyone who was on the hunt where Robert was injured probably had a good idea what happened. Littlefinger doesn't seem like the hunting type, but I'm sure he had his sources.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> So this big sinner--Lancel--goes to the sparrows and confesses a little, then a little more --weeks go by and then he confesses murder and adultery. And now he's one of their leaders as it seems. All you have to do is confess, and you're home free???


Heh.

I don't think Big Bird is as pure as he makes himself out to be. He's as much a politician as anybody on the show. I suspect he knew full well what Cersei had done, and didn't do anything about it while he still had use for her. And once she had outlived her usefulness, then the truth came out.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Note for future episodes: Too many shots of Ollie looking mad at Jon. Ollie is going to do something bad at the worst possible time.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> I just watched a behind the scenes look at this episode and a point was raised I thought interesting. Not a spoiler...just an observation.
> 
> Aomen Targaryen <sp?> is the first natural death we've seen in the series? The only one that has simply died of old age.


Funny line from EW's recap:

"*Maester Ameon has the shows most shocking death yet: He dies of old age*. "


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Note for future episodes: Too many shots of Ollie looking mad at Jon. Ollie is going to do something bad at the worst possible time.


Oh, absolutely!! It's just a matter of time.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

nickels said:


> Will Stannis sacrifice his daughter to win the war? Seems like his options are pretty crappy here. Winter appears to be there, not coming soon.


I had some friends who hadn't watched all of Season 4 yet over this weekend and we got to the episodes where Stannis is leaving Dragonstone and there's a scene where his wife goes to see the Lady Melisandre, and Melisandre has her look into the flames. You probably remember. In that scene, the reason the wife came to see her was to convince Stannis to leave their daughter Shireen behind, but when they looked into the fire, Melisandre pointed out that it was impossible to leave her behind, because they would need her.

I hadn't put that together until seeing that scene the day after I watched the episode where Melisandre suggests that Shireens blood has power.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The leeches worked pretty well. You would think they could just leech Shireen.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Each time she does something, it uses up some of the person's life/strength, which is why Stannis can't just create shadow after shadow to do his bidding.

So perhaps Shireen's young age or her illness makes her too weak to use without killing her in the process.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I also have a theory about the virginity of the person. Gendry and Shireen are virgins so can be killed for "something". Stannis and Jon are not virgins and so can only make a shadow-baby.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

I wonder how the Grayscale plays in? It can't simply be there for no purpose.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> I just watched a behind the scenes look at this episode and a point was raised I thought interesting. Not a spoiler...just an observation.
> 
> Aomen Targaryen <sp?> is the first natural death we've seen in the series? The only one that has simply died of old age.


And here I was thinking that Melisandre would get to him.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> Yeah. I see it as Lancel confessed all that before Cersei even unleashed The Faith. Ever since she did empower them, Pop Sparrow has been waiting for a good moment to grab Cersei. I'd like to go back and watch for his reaction to being empowered.


I remember when Cercei was talking to the HS and telling him to bring back the Faith Militant, she essentially confessed that she had many sins and that here are worse than most, and he kind of glossed over it, saying something like all sins are equal to the Seven. That's why I was really surprised last week to see the HS on such a crusade against Loras and Margaery and leaving Cercei alone. I'm glad to see that he was just slow playing her.



Anubys said:


> Note for future episodes: Too many shots of Ollie looking mad at Jon. Ollie is going to do something bad at the worst possible time.


That was definitely "Chekov's death glare" if ever I saw it.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I'm a non-reader and so far, for me, this is the weakest of the 5 seasons. And with only three episodes left, I doubt it will get better. We shall see. I am still enjoying it though.


I agree, but it's still better than 95% of what's on TV


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Ereth said:


> I wonder how the Grayscale plays in? It can't simply be there for no purpose.


I was thinking the same thing, and since Jorah now has it, I wonder if it will play in there as well?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Is it me, or is this the first season any of us questioned how the show was written? Up until know, I think it's been pretty flawless. Me personally have no qualms with it, but there IS some folks questioning things.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Steveknj said:


> Is it me, or is this the first season any of us questioned how the show was written? Up until know, I think it's been pretty flawless. Me personally have no qualms with it, but there IS some folks questioning things.


I'd agree with that. It happens to coincide with them making things up on their own more than in any prior season.


----------



## tlc (May 30, 2002)




----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Is it me, or is this the first season any of us questioned how the show was written? Up until know, I think it's been pretty flawless. Me personally have no qualms with it, but there IS some folks questioning things.


Apparently you missed the discussion about the poor design of the wall


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Apparently you missed the discussion about the poor design of the wall


Well that's not "writing" that's set design


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> I'd agree with that. It happens to coincide with them making things up on their own more than in any prior season.


But are people complaining specifically about things where the plot of the show has differed from the books? It seems to me that most of the complaints aren't with the actual plot, but with the pacing and execution - two areas where in prior seasons the show has been able to excel at depicting things from the books that take hundreds of pages to describe.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> But are people complaining specifically about things where the plot of the show has differed from the books? It seems to me that most of the complaints aren't with the actual plot, but with the pacing and execution - two areas where in prior seasons the show has been able to excel at depicting things from the books that take hundreds of pages to describe.


well, pacing and execution depends on source material. when you are trying to take 1000s of pages and reduce them down into a manageable timeframe perhaps it's easier than making up the story from scratch?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I think they're doing a better job than the books at this point. Dorne notwithstanding.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think they're doing a better job than the books at this point. Dorne notwithstanding.


This. The last 2 books were a slog and they are zipping right through them. But the middle part of any epic always bogs down. The writers need people to be in certain places and find out certain things to get to the grande finale. I call it "Camping with Harry Potter".


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think they're doing a better job than the books at this point. Dorne notwithstanding.


IMO, Dorne sucked in the books, too.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

How about (the worst CGI ever) Ghost showing up just in time again? Why isn't Ghost following Lord Commander Jon?

Agian I mention that Arya's and Bran's direwolves are still extant.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Margaery has 11 or 12 toes?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

RIP to the old "You-still-have-friends-in-the-North" lady.

So Brienne is now sitting out there watching for a signal that will never happen, as Ramsey seems to have taken up residence in the Broken Tower, and he knows about the-candle-in-the-window signal. So how is Brienne going to figure that out, and what is she going to do about it?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Was that a signal to Brienne? I didn't think so.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Robin said:


> Was that a signal to Brienne? I didn't think so.


Yeah, I never thought of it being a signal to Brienne.

There must be many underground northerners who are ready to rise up when needed.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Robin said:


> Was that a signal to Brienne? I didn't think so.


It was definitely a signal to Brienne. In S05E05, we see Brienne talk to the innkeeper about whether he is still loyal to the Starks, and then when she recognizes that he is, she says that she needs to get a message to Sansa, who is inside Winterfell. A couple minutes later, we see the old lady give Sansa the message that "You still have friends in the North" and to put the candle in the window if you're ever in trouble.

Then in this episode, we see Sansa send Reek to put the candle in the window, and then when he's thwarted by Ramsey, we see Brienne standing there staring at that window, waiting for the signal (which will now never come). I don't think there's any question that Brienne is the one who sent that message to Sansa, and that Brienne has been keeping a constant watch for the signal from the Broken Tower ever since.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Is it me, or is this the first season any of us questioned how the show was written? Up until know, I think it's been pretty flawless. Me personally have no qualms with it, but there IS some folks questioning things.


You are correct. My wife watches this with me. She hasn't read the books, and this is definitely not her std genre. But she loves GoT.

She turned to me Sunday night and said, "This show has become boring and depressing".

I think she is far more typical of the average viewer than us fanatics. And I fear that over-the-top hypedom that has become GoT may cool off. She's not about to quit mid-season though. If they pull off an incredible finish, then all is well. If not, HBO may see some ratings shrinkage next year.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Robin said:


> Was that a signal to Brienne? I didn't think so.





MikeAndrews said:


> Yeah, I never thought of it being a signal to Brienne.
> 
> There must be many underground northerners who are ready to rise up when needed.


It's so quick, if you blink you can miss it. The scene is right after Ramsay sees Reek enter the room.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> Was that a signal to Brienne? I didn't think so.


Was *what* a signal to Brienne? The candle? Yes that was absolutely a signal to her. That was the message she had the old lady deliver to Sansa.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> It's so quick, if you blink you can miss it. The scene is right after Ramsay sees Reek enter the room.


Here are screenshots from that very quick scene:


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> It was definitely a signal to Brienne. In S05E05, we see Brienne talk to the innkeeper about whether he is still loyal to the Starks, and then when she recognizes that he is, she says that she needs to get a message to Sansa, who is inside Winterfell. A couple minutes later, we see the old lady give Sansa the message that "You still have friends in the North" and to put the candle in the window if you're ever in trouble.
> 
> Then in this episode, we see Sansa send Reek to put the candle in the window, and then when he's thwarted by Ramsey, we see Brienne standing there staring at that window, waiting for the signal (which will now never come). I don't think there's any question that Brienne is the one who sent that message to Sansa, and that Brienne has been keeping a constant watch for the signal from the Broken Tower ever since.


Oh! I totally missed the connection, thanks. I'd forgotten about Brienne wanting to send a message.

Now I'm depressed on Sansa's behalf.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

What confused me was, why was Bolton sitting in that broken tower when Reek walked in? Was Reek really going to light the candle until he saw him there? Or wasn't that where he was sitting? I really need to re-watch this.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> What confused me was, why was Bolton sitting in that broken tower when Reek walked in? Was Reek really going to light the candle until he saw him there? Or wasn't that where he was sitting? I really need to re-watch this.


Was that even the broken tower or were we just meant to think it was when Reek was really going straight to Ramsay?

I thought he broken tower was open to the elements. It certainly wasn't snowing in the tower.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

morac said:


> Was that even the broken tower or were we just meant to think it was when Reek was really going straight to Ramsay?
> 
> I thought he broken tower was open to the elements. It certainly wasn't snowing in the tower.


You are correct. He didn't go to the broken tower; he went to Ramsay.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You are correct. He didn't go to the broken tower; he went to Ramsay.


Yes, I fell for the rope-a-dope that Theon was going to light the candle and got caught by Ramsey being there, but a closer inspection shows that Theon went straight to Ramsey who was elsewhere in Winterfell and he never went to the Broken Tower.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Robin said:


> Oh! I totally missed the connection, thanks. I'd forgotten about Brienne wanting to send a message. Now I'm depressed on Sansa's behalf.


When Sansa uses the whatever-corkscrew-thing on Bolton (or Theon) something will make enough noise or action that Brienne will notice. I am hopeful that it's soon-ish, too.

Ugh! That Theon. He did not pass go. He did not collect anything. 
He just tattled. Straight off. 
He is the worst!

I was glad that Sansa still took the chance for a little dig about the possible baby brother. 
She has gotten so much stronger.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> 1) Lancel joins sparrows and starts confessing little by little.
> 2) Littlefinger tells Olenna about Lancel
> 3) Olenna talks to Lancel and says "look how Cersei is manipulating you guys into doing her dirty work...you've got to come clean about her
> 4) Lancel tells the high sparrow
> 5) He immediately arranges to have Cersei arrested


 I may have read too much into it, but from the way the High Sparrow talked it seemed to me Lancel had confessed all, quite a while ago. Certainly it's hard to imagine them giving him their special forehead branding before he'd confessed all his sins.



astrohip said:


> Well, if this leads to the death of spoiler jokes, then maybe it will serve some purpose.


 :up: :up:



DevdogAZ said:


> So Brienne is now sitting out there watching for a signal that will never happen, as Ramsey seems to have taken up residence in the Broken Tower, and he knows about the-candle-in-the-window signal.


 As others have said, Reek went to Ramsay on purpose in Ramsay's chambers: Ramsay didn't surprise Reek and Ramsay has not taken up residence in the broken tower: it's still deserted.

Personally I'm positive that somehow, Sansa will manage to get that candle lit.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Wouldn't it be something if it was Tomen(SP?) who gave Cersei up?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I may have read too much into it, but from the way the High Sparrow talked it seemed to me Lancel had confessed all, quite a while ago. Certainly it's hard to imagine them giving him their special forehead branding before he'd confessed all his sins.


I heard someone speculate that Lancel confessed previously so the High Sparrow knew about his sins, but had chosen to sit on that information. But when Littlefinger told Olenna about Lancel, and Olenna then went to the High Sparrow, he could no longer keep that information to himself and had to act on it, lest he be viewed as not being impartial.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I think Littlefinger's "gift" to Olena will be the squire who ratted on her son. If she can get him to recant at the trial then her son and daughter could go free.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

SoBelle0 said:


> When Sansa uses the whatever-corkscrew-thing on Bolton (or Theon) something will make enough noise or action that Brienne will notice. I am hopeful that it's soon-ish, too.


I think that will happen, AND then she will light the candle.

And Brienne will be her getaway car.

-smak-


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

smak said:


> I think that will happen, AND then she will light the candle. And Brienne will be her getaway car. -smak-


This is GoT guys. It is just as likey that Brienne could die some horrible death, leaving poor Sansa captive for yet more torture at the hands of her husband.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Sansa would be stupid to kill Ramsay with the corkscrew. She needs to do it with poison or something subtle so she can escape being flayed.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> This is GoT guys. It is just as likey that Brienne could die some horrible death, leaving poor Sansa captive for yet more torture at the hands of her husband.


Or Sansa will die a horrible death, leaving poor Brienne with yet another failed protection oath on her conscience...


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or Sansa will die a horrible death, leaving poor Brienne with yet another failed protection oath on her conscience...


....or that.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

SoBelle0 said:


> Ugh! That Theon. He did not pass go. He did not collect anything.
> He just tattled. Straight off.
> He is the worst!


Agreed! He really reeks.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

How did Ramsey know the old lady was the one that gave Sansa the message? I don't remember her giving any clues to Theon about her other than saying they have friends in the north still.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

nickels said:


> How did Ramsey know the old lady was the one that gave Sansa the message? I don't remember her giving any clues to Theon about her other than saying they have friends in the north still.


I was wondering the same. I assumed that he just made that assumption, since she previously was the one bringing Sansa food and stuff. I suspect Ramsay's not necessarily too concerned with whether or not he punished the right person.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Margaery has 11 or 12 toes?


I think that's just a bony protrusion on the side of the foot right next to the pinky. I know some folks who have that... looks like an extra toe from certain angles.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

nickels said:


> How did Ramsey know the old lady was the one that gave Sansa the message? I don't remember her giving any clues to Theon about her other than saying they have friends in the north still.


Sansa has had very few visitors or people coming to see her since arriving at Winterfell, I imagine it was easy to determine who the mole was.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pjenkins said:


> Sansa has had very few visitors or people coming to see her since arriving at Winterfell, I imagine it was easy to determine who the mole was.


And that many others were tortured during the investigation. I'm glad we skipped that.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> Sansa has had very few visitors or people coming to see her since arriving at Winterfell, I imagine it was easy to determine who the mole was.


Yes, and luckily he didn't find out about Brienne, since he mentioned her heart gave out before she could say anything.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

And here's an interesting thought. Is Brienne now waiting in vain? Sansa doesn't know about Brienne specifically. Hopefully she doesn't think that old lady was the one who she was supposed to be signalling. Otherwise she won't even try.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

The message was "friend*s* in the North". I think Sansa understands that the old woman was just the messenger.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

MikeAndrews said:


> Margaery has 11 or 12 toes?


Someone must have a serious foot fetish to analyze this screenshot in such detail.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I think Littlefinger's "gift" to Olena will be the squire who ratted on her son. If she can get him to recant at the trial then her son and daughter could go free.


Littlefinger gave Cercei the gift of telling her about Oliver (Loras' squire who also ran the brothel).

Littlefinger then gave Olenna the gift of telling her about Lancel.

He's playing them both against each other and will then be ready to swoop in and fill the power vacuum that results.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> Littlefinger gave Cercei the gift of telling her about Oliver (Loras' squire who also ran the brothel).
> 
> Littlefinger then gave Olenna the gift of telling her about Lancel.
> 
> He's playing them both against each other and will then be ready to swoop in and fill the power vacuum that results.


What did Varys say about him? He would burn the world down if he could be king of the ashes (or something along those lines).


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Robin said:


> The message was "friend*s* in the North". I think Sansa understands that the old woman was just the messenger.


Exactly - no way Sansa thought help was coming from the old lady!!


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Littlefinger then gave Olenna the gift of telling her about Lancel.


I don't think so. Lancel had already told the High Sparrow everything long before. There was no need to tip him off thru a 3rd party.

I'm sticking with my theory. Littlefinger's gift to Olenna was an out for her children at their trial.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Someone must have a serious foot fetish to analyze this screenshot in such detail.


It's the first time she's been onscreen without her boobs hanging out all over the place.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

That's why they had to freeze frame and lighten: to find them.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Jstkiddn said:


> It's the first time she's been onscreen without her boobs hanging out all over the place.


I don't think she's been naked at all this season, has she? The romp with Tommen wasn't exposed. And no more Dany nudity either.

Thank the gods for the Sand Snakes


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> Exactly - no way Sansa thought help was coming from the old lady!!


Help, no. But the old lady was the messenger in, so it's possible Sansa thinks she's the messenger out, too.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I don't think so. Lancel had already told the High Sparrow everything long before. There was no need to tip him off thru a 3rd party.
> 
> I'm sticking with my theory. Littlefinger's gift to Olenna was an out for her children at their trial.


I don't think Littlefinger's plan had anything to do with the High Sparrow. He simply gave Lady Olenna some information that allowed Olenna to turn the tables on Cercei. It's very likely that the High Sparrow already knew about Cercei's sins from Lancel's confession, but he hadn't yet found the right time/situation to trade on that information. Lady Olenna coming forward and stating that she knows about Lancel and Cercei's indiscretions forced the High Sparrow's hands. He could no longer sit on that info and wait for the most opportune time. He had to act against Cercei or Olenna would be able to accuse him of not applying the laws equally.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

madscientist said:


> Personally I'm positive that somehow, Sansa will manage to get that candle lit.


I still haven't taken the time to re-watch.  Sorry. But did Reek tell him that he was supposed to light the candle and put it in the window? In that case, I assume someone is watching that tower. So they found the old lady, but were unable to find out who the signal was for. It could be seen either inside the walls or outside? The flayed lady would be incentive for those inside to give up, but I wonder if they sent men outside the walls to look around. Also, are the walls intact? How is Brienne going to get in?

I probably wouldn't have noticed if someone hadn't pointed it out, but that girl has some ugly feet. I guess it's only fair that someone as attractive as her has a bad feature somewhere, and that's it.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Her feet are the new sharp knees.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

pjenkins said:


> I don't think she's been naked at all this season, has she? The romp with Tommen wasn't exposed. And no more Dany nudity either.
> 
> Thank the gods for the Sand Snakes


hey we tossed you a naked flayed old woman, isn't that enough?


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I sure hope the candle signal (in an exposed, drafty tower, but anyway) is to get more people than Brienne. She's a great fighter and all, but she's 1 and she's on the outside of a fortified Winterfell.

And who needs a signal to know that Sansa is in deep trouble?


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

dianebrat said:


> hey we tossed you a naked flayed old woman, isn't that enough?


ewwwwwww



dianebrat said:


>


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

So if they want to know who is waiting for a signal, why didn't they just light the candle and set a trap for whoever shows up?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I wondered about that, too.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> And who needs a signal to know that Sansa is in deep trouble?


Last time Brienne tried to "rescue" Sansa, Sansa didn't want to be rescued and wasn't in trouble. That's the last Brienne knows about Sansa's situation. She suspects there might be trouble, but she doesn't know. For all Brienne knows, Sansa is perfectly happy in her new situation at Winterfell.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

pjenkins said:


> I don't think she's been naked at all this season, has she? The romp with Tommen wasn't exposed. And no more Dany nudity either.
> 
> Thank the gods for the Sand Snakes


I don't recall Margery ever being in a nude scene, this season or any.

Not that I'm tracking it or anything...


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or Sansa will die a horrible death, leaving poor Brienne with yet another failed protection oath on her conscience...


I wonder though if Ramsey's fate will have nothing to do with Sansa. They have made a point a few times about Bolton's daughter (I think it's his daughter anyway) being pregnant and if it's a boy might be considered the rightful heir to Winterfell. Perhaps Ramsey, being threatened takes her out or attempts to and is found out or killed. Sansa escapes because of it. Just speculation, but it was just another thought I had.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I thought it was Bolton's wife.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I wonder though if Ramsey's fate will have nothing to do with Sansa. They have made a point a few times about Bolton's daughter (I think it's his daughter anyway) being pregnant and if it's a boy might be considered the rightful heir to Winterfell. Perhaps Ramsey, being threatened takes her out or attempts to and is found out or killed. Sansa escapes because of it. Just speculation, but it was just another thought I had.


That's Roose Bolton's wife, Walda Frey. Roose is Ramsey's dad, but Walda is not Ramsey's mom. Since Roose is married to Walda, her child would be a legitimate Bolton and not a naturalized one like Ramsey. And as Sansa said in this episode, the "King" who authorized Ramsey to become a Bolton and not a Snow is a bastard himself and therefore lacks the authority to make such a proclamation.

However, given that said child wouldn't be able to do anything about his alleged superior claim for many, many years, I doubt that's going to come into play.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

3D said:


> I thought it was Bolton's wife.


It might be. Like I said, I couldn't remember exactly. Either way, I could definitely see Ramsey doing something to prevent that from happening and getting outed or killed for it.


----------



## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Yes, it's Roose's wife and a Frey, they united the houses and now control the North after the Red Wedding when they took out Robb and Cat (Walter Frey remember was a key ally of Robb and the Starks before Robb went off and married a non-Frey servant girl)


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

astrohip said:


> I don't recall Margery ever being in a nude scene, this season or any.
> 
> Not that I'm tracking it or anything...


It was the 2nd season. She was in a tent with Renly, trying to "seduce" him and lowered her bodice. When that did not entice Renly, she made some comment about her brother come in an "help out" if that was Renly's preference.

Of course, it is not like that scene made a lasting impression on me.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> That's Roose Bolton's wife, Walda Frey. Roose is Ramsey's dad, but Walda is not Ramsey's mom. Since Roose is married to Walda, her child would be a legitimate Bolton and not a naturalized one like Ramsey. And as Sansa said in this episode, the "King" who authorized Ramsey to become a Bolton and not a Snow is a bastard himself and therefore lacks the authority to make such a proclamation.
> 
> However, given that said child wouldn't be able to do anything about his alleged superior claim for many, many years, I doubt that's going to come into play.


I would suspect that, if Ramsey had any "say" in the matter, any true child of Roose is not likely to make it to beyond toddler years.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Roose would know, too, that his legitimate son is in danger. Maybe Ramsay is just insurance until Roose is confident that he will live long enough. On the other hand, if his second son is raised by his mother, he might not end up ruthless enough for the Bolton name. 

I thought Dany had agreed to open the fighting pits but insisted that only free men could fight in them. Does she think these were free men?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> That's Roose Bolton's wife, Walda Frey.


In particular "Fat Walda" Frey (since there are many Walder Frey descendents named Walda in order to honor him). Walder gave Roose the choice of his daughters and granddaughters to take as wife, and promised her weight in silver as dowry. Roose chose the fattest.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> It was the 2nd season. She was in a tent with Renly, trying to "seduce" him and lowered her bodice. When that did not entice Renly, she made some comment about her brother come in an "help out" if that was Renly's preference.
> 
> Of course, it is not like that scene made a lasting impression on me.


Yeah, Margaery has been full-on nude in at least one scene, and I feel like she's been topless a few other times.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I thought Dany had agreed to open the fighting pits but insisted that only free men could fight in them. Does she think these were free men?


Isn't that why they tossed some money at Mormont and Tyrion? So technically they were being paid?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

That's the way I took it.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> It was the 2nd season. She was in a tent with Renly, trying to "seduce" him and lowered her bodice. When that did not entice Renly, she made some comment about her brother come in an "help out" if that was Renly's preference.
> 
> Of course, it is not like that scene made a lasting impression on me.


S2E3 "What is Dead May Never Die", at the 35 minute mark.

Or so I've heard...

 Thanks!


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Google Image Search is pretty useful with the right keywords and settings.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Yeah, Margaery has been full-on nude in at least one scene, and I feel like she's been topless a few other times.


I was actually making reference to her outfits, all of which seem to barely contain "the girls". They always look like they are about to make a jailbreak.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> I was actually making reference to her outfits, all of which seem to barely contain "the girls". They always look like they are about to make a jailbreak.


Yes, Cersei, we know you are jealous of her youth and perky breasts


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Yes, Cersei, we know you are jealous of her youth and perky breasts


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

And to think there was a time when I thought Joffrey was as bad as one could get. I'm on the verge of reading spoilers to find out how soon Ramsay gets it. I'm not sure how much more of him I can take. Good lord.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I was actually making reference to her outfits, all of which seem to barely contain "the girls". They always look like they are about to make a jailbreak.


Cersei even made a joke about that. There was a really small piece of fabric and she said to give it to Margaery and she can make her wedding dress out of it?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

LordKronos said:


> Cersei even made a joke about that. There was a really small piece of fabric and she said to give it to Margaery and she can make her wedding dress out of it?


And during the dinner with just her, Margery, and Joffrey, she kept asking Margery if she were cold with so little clothes covering her


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> And to think there was a time when I thought Joffrey was as bad as one could get. I'm on the verge of reading spoilers to find out how soon Ramsay gets it. I'm not sure how much more of him I can take. Good lord.


She's alive! these threads have not been the same without you!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Anubys said:


> She's alive! these threads have not been the same without you!


I'm sorry I was so behind on all my shows (not this one though) that I avoided coming here and reading anything because I have very little will power to not spoil myself. So the few shows I've never been behind on suffered as well. But here I am all caught up!

I still love Tyrion like no other. I'm still waiting on something good to happen for him but since it's GOT I fully expect to be waiting for a long time.

On the plus side, I really really enjoyed watching Cercei back herself into that corner because how did she not see that coming. Not as smart as she thinks she is indeed!


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> And to think there was a time when I thought Joffrey was as bad as one could get. I'm on the verge of reading spoilers to find out how soon Ramsay gets it. I'm not sure how much more of him I can take. Good lord.


Not really a spoiler:


Spoiler



The TV show is ahead of (or diverging from?) the books in this plotline... there are no spoilers available about Ramsay's fate...sorry...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

madscientist said:


> Not really a spoiler:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


 Why does that figure!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I still love Tyrion like no other. I'm still waiting on something good to happen for him but since it's GOT I fully expect to be waiting for a long time.


At least the pirates didn't cut off his johnson.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> At least the pirates didn't cut off his johnson.


I was surprised about that, actually. The slavers made it seem like it's worth a lot of money. Then they gave Tyrion away for practically nothing.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> I was actually making reference to her outfits, all of which seem to barely contain "the girls". They always look like they are about to make a jailbreak.


Push ups.


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Hey photoshopgrl, these threads are useless without GIFs!


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

markp99 said:


> Hey photoshopgrl, these threads are useless without GIFs!


Okay I'll do better next week, for now my favorite moments of this episode are.........



Spoiler













And this although I'm quite sure he's going to punish her for this but I can't help it I was literally clapping like a child during
























and not so favorite 

















and need this to end well for Jorah but I fear it won't


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

That Septon woman who threw Cersei in the cell could give Brienne a run for her money.

She also looked like the french princess who married the gay son of the King of England in Braveheart.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

We never get a sense of how powerful the Faith Militant are in Westeros. The High Sparrow is going to get them destroyed. They have recently made enemies with house Tyrell, Lord of the Vale, and now the Lannister family. Those are three of the most powerful families in the area, so why piss them all off simultaneously? I imagine that many other families would rise against them based on their prosecuting anyone that does anything impure. They must be really powerful or really stupid.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

That's brings up a question--why isn't Littlefinger in prison? 

At the moment, taking on the Lannisters isn't that scary a prospect. 

I watched this twice and still didn't see them throw money at the fighters. So if Jorah and Tyrion want to walk away, they can't stop them, right? They're presenting them as free men voluntarily fighting.


----------



## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> ...I watched this twice and still didn't see them throw money at the fighters. So if Jorah and Tyrion want to walk away, they can't stop them, right? They're presenting them as free men voluntarily fighting.


The fight manager gave Jorah and Tyrion each a coin as payment.

As of now, they should be free except that Dany swore if she saw Jorah again she would have him executed.

How about, Jorah still calling her "Khaleesi" when she's Queen and as far as we know there are no Dothraki left.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> How about, Jorah still calling her "Khaleesi" when she's Queen and as far as we know there are no Dothraki left.


Essos is huge. Surely there are plenty of Dothraki in the great middle.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

No Dothraki left that she is the boss of...


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

MikeAndrews said:


> How about, Jorah still calling her "Khaleesi" when she's Queen and as far as we know there are no Dothraki left.


This doesn't stop every article and pop culture reference saying that her NAME is Khaleesi either


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

There were Dothraki with her at the fighting pit.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I watched this twice and still didn't see them throw money at the fighters. So if Jorah and Tyrion want to walk away, they can't stop them, right? They're presenting them as free men voluntarily fighting.


Don't see how you could not see it. Tyrion raises the issue right after being sold. "I hear Mereen has recently become a free city" and presses the point to say that slaves aren't allowed to fight, but free men, who are paid a wage.. at which point his new owner smacks him in the face. He then tosses him a coin and says "Here's your wages. That should last the rest of your life.". He tosses another to Jorah immediately afterwards.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Remind my old brain what Jorah did to offend her? Other than being an old creep.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> Remind my old brain what Jorah did to offend her? Other than being an old creep.


She found out that he was spying on her for Robert/Joffrey/Tywin. He told them about her marriage and her pregnancy and knew about the plot to poison her in the market square.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Spying on her, right. Thank you.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

As a result I think she considers him responsible for her child and husband's deaths.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Robin said:


> As a result I think she considers him responsible for her child and husband's deaths.


I was just under the impression she found it to be a betrayal of trust because he had become her closest adviser and IMO she had some feelings for him too but I can see where you could be right as well.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Robin said:


> As a result I think she considers him responsible for her child and husband's deaths.


Why would she think that? Drogo's death had nothing to do with any attempt on her or from Kings Landing. And her child's death?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ereth said:


> Don't see how you could not see it. Tyrion raises the issue right after being sold. "I hear Mereen has recently become a free city" and presses the point to say that slaves aren't allowed to fight, but free men, who are paid a wage.. at which point his new owner smacks him in the face. He then tosses him a coin and says "Here's your wages. That should last the rest of your life.". He tosses another to Jorah immediately afterwards.


No idea how I missed all that. It was in the last episode? Thanks.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

brianp6621 said:


> Why would she think that? Drogo's death had nothing to do with any attempt on her or from Kings Landing. And her child's death?


Honestly I don't remember. It's just the impression I was left with.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> As a result I think she considers him responsible for her child and husband's deaths.


There's no way she could consider him responsible for the actual deaths. Maybe for an attempt, but not for it actually happening. The closest anything ever got was that wine merchant, and Jorah was the one who saved her.

As for the ACTUAL deaths, the root cause of both of them was, ironically, herself. For Drogo's actual death, that all stemmed from her not respecting Dothraki customs and wanting to intervene in the taking-of-wives. In fact, in this instance it was because she chose to ignore Jorah's advice. Jorah advised her that it was custom, and said it in a way that implied she shouldn't intervene.

For her baby, it's hard to pinpoint exactly what went wrong. She went into early labor because she was knocked down by the Dothraki after she used the witch to try to save Drogo. Again, that was sort of against Jorah's advice (he suggested she flee before he dies and the Dothraki turn on her). Of course, the stillborn baby was deformed. That itself could have been caused by the witches curse (she said you save life by taking life...hmm, sounds sort of like the many faced god) or simply by something that could have happened on it's own (random birth defect, or related to her dragon blood and related abilities).

Now that I'm talking about this, I just came up with a theory. I remembered the description of her baby was something about it being lizard like. I just went back and checked:

Jorah: They say the child was...
Witch: Monstrous, twisted. I pulled him out myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him the skin fell from his bones. Inside he was full of graveworms.

When I watched this every time in the past, I always took the description to be like a dragon, but made no other connection. Now the scaled skin makes me think of grayscale. The Targaryens are from Valyria, which also happens to be where everyone sends the people infected with grayscale. I was wondering before why they send them all there. Now it occurred to me: The Doom of Valyeria. We don't actually know what it was. I think there have been some comments about it being volcanoes. But I thought there was more to it than that, because Tyrian and Jorah were talking about people still fearing The Doom. Is there a connection between Grayscale and The Doom?

The next thing I was thinking was that the Doom may have somehow affected the Valyerian's ability to have children, and that's why Daenerys' child was like that. We know that the whole Valyerian civialzation (except for the Targaryens) died off, and perhaps that's why...not instant death, but inability to procreate. As for the Targaryens, we know that they fled to Westeros, and they did have children there, so obviously something was different for them. My first thought was something about the distance from Valyeria...if The Doom was some sort of curse, it doesn't extend to Westeros. But then why did it affect Daenerys, since she never went to Valyria. Was it just that she was close enough?

Another possibility...we heard all about how the Targaryens inbred to preserve their bloodline. So perhaps the curse has something to do with that. Danaerys' child had a Dothraki father, which could have been why it was malformed. Of course Rhaegar and Elia Martell had kids, so perhaps it only affected the women of Valyria, and not the men?

While I was looking this up, I ran across something else interesting about the Doom. When Jorah was in Qarth, he ran into that mysterious lady with the full face mask...the one who knew he betrayed Danaerys before. Interestingly, did she sort of predict the future?

"Jorah the Andal. This man must sail past old Valyria. All who travel too close to the Doom must have protection."

At the time I thought before that she was referring to the man she was tattooing, but could she have been cryptically referring to Jorah?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Interesting that she seemed to predict Jorah's greyscale. I wonder how fast it spreads?

Also the dragons kept getting smaller and had trouble reproducing until they completely died out. Don't know if that could have been connected to the "doom" too.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Also the dragons kept getting smaller and had trouble reproducing until they completely died out. Don't know if that could have been connected to the "doom" too.


Or maybe connected with leaving their homeland Essos for Westeros..?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

We Know the Targarians had children with other people. ELia Martell had children with Raegar.

We also suspect that Lyanna had Jon Snow, also with Raegar.

So it is not true that Targarians cannot have children except with themselves.

You can't believe anything the witch said. It may also have been deformed because of the black magic she was performing.


BUT

I think there is a connection between grayscale and dragons. I don't know what it is yet, but I'm convinced that this will come to pass (maybe not in the show, though!).


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Also the dragons kept getting smaller and had trouble reproducing until they completely died out. Don't know if that could have been connected to the "doom" too.


Where are you getting that from? Is that based on Viscerys talk about the skulls in kings landing? I didn't recall him saying anything about it being chronological. I just assumed some dragons died young, some old, some were big, some small, and they arranged them according to size for dramatic effect

But yeah, even if that wasn't said outright, it makes a lot of sense and fits right in with what I was thinking


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

We don't know exactly why, but the dragons became weaker during the Targaryen reign on Westeros, resulting in each successive generation being smaller and smaller.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DreadPirateRob said:


> We don't know exactly why, but the dragons became weaker during the Targaryen reign on Westeros, resulting in each successive generation being smaller and smaller.


Again, was that something we were told, a theory, or a spoiler?


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> Again, was that something we were told, a theory, or a spoiler?


We were told, several times. Not just by Varys, but by Tywin Lannister. There was a small council meeting where they discussed Danaerys' dragons and how the last dragons were no bigger than a cat, if I remember correctly.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Somehow I missed that context. From Viserys:

"The ones closest to the door were the last ones they were able to hatch and they were all stunted and wrong. Skulls no bigger than dog skulls.
But as you got closer to the Iron Throne...They got bigger and bigger and bigger."

Also, in season 3 Tywin says "The skull of the last of them was right here. It was the size of an apple."

I can't find any reference to a small council where the discuss size, but regardless...point taken.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

The story is meh but the headline amused me:

 Good News: 'Game of Thrones' to Feature Non-Traumatizing Sex This Week.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Ereth said:


> We were told, several times. Not just by Varys, but by Tywin Lannister. There was a small council meeting where they discussed Danaerys' dragons and how the last dragons were no bigger than a cat, if I remember correctly.


Whew! I didn't remember where I got it from, and I have read the books. I thought I was in big trouble.


----------

