# Retail Tivo Preview?



## dritter29 (Dec 21, 2008)

Has anyone seen any rumors or suggestions that Tivo will release a retail version of the rumored Tivo Preview? I would love to be able to incorporate one or two of these into my home entertainment setup.

Is there some way we can petition or let Tivo know that we (assuming it's more than just me) are interested in them bringing this device to the retail market?

Thanks!
Dave


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Tivo doesn't care what customers think.


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## dritter29 (Dec 21, 2008)

Okay... thanks?

So that's one vote for the jaded Tivo hates us all camp.

(this is rhetorical, no need to reply. I DO NOT want to turn this thread into some flame war about Tivo this or Tivo that.)


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

Well, I'll add a more positive comment.

If TiVo sells the Preview, I will buy one. Depending on its specs, I would use it to completely replace my original Series 3 as I just got an Elite for my main viewing room.

If the MRS works well when it gets enabled, I might even buy a regular Premiere instead for a second room. Not sure yet.


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## danjw1 (Sep 13, 2005)

I sure hope so. It is what I am waiting for to switch to an Elite.


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## Arcady (Oct 14, 2004)

The preview sounds like a neat device, but I'll probably just end up with Premieres in each room.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

dritter29 said:


> So that's one vote for the jaded Tivo hates us all camp.


Add my voted to aadam101's. 

I don't think Tivo hates us, but I'm pretty sure we're very low on their priority list. We're getting leftover scraps from Tivo's deal with the cablecos. If we see a retail Premiere, it will only be if the effort to transform it for direct retail sale is negligible.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

dritter29 said:


> Okay... thanks?
> 
> So that's one vote for the jaded Tivo hates us all camp.
> 
> (this is rhetorical, no need to reply. I DO NOT want to turn this thread into some flame war about Tivo this or Tivo that.)


I just want you to know that petitioning Tivo is a waste of time. They stopped caring about customers a very long time ago. I don't want you to get the wrong impression about Tivo by thinking that they are like most other companies. They have shown very little interest in what customers have to say. Even when they solicit feedback, it doesn't result in any changes. There is a reason why they are at their lowest subscriber counts in years.

That being said, I hope they offer a retail Preview as well. I will definitely get one or two of them.


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## El Gabito (Mar 11, 2004)

I'm in if it comes and if I don't return my Elite.


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## tvhank (Oct 25, 2010)

I would like the Previews to replace all my cable company's set top boxes. (This thread should have been a poll instead.)


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## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

I wonder what the subscription will cost? You didn't think you could just buy one?


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

rocko said:


> I wonder what the subscription will cost? You didn't think you could just buy one?


My guess is that it would have a $6.99/month sub or $199 lifetime.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

smbaker said:


> Add my voted to aadam101's.
> 
> I don't think Tivo hates us, but I'm pretty sure we're very low on their priority list. We're getting leftover scraps from Tivo's deal with the cablecos. If we see a retail Premiere, it will only be if the effort to transform it for direct retail sale is negligible.


TiVo doesn't hate us. Tom Roger's and the TiVo LT realized a number of years back that their only chance at a successful strategy was to embrace the cable operators. They've executed that strategy fairly well. The see the retail consumer as an important albeit less important element of that strategy.

Tom Roger's discussed the TiVo retail strategy at their last conference call.



> While we continue to be cautious with our investments in the retail business, we are confident that our retail offerings will benefit from having the TiVo powered Insignia televisions at Best Buy. More importantly, by leveraging the R&D elements of our retail business into our operator business, TiVo is the only vendor that is in a unique position of having an array of operator products that benefit from 10 years of direct interaction with retail subscribers and households. And by being in retail, we continue to believe we are able to control our own destiny, innovate and deliver the best product with a well-recognized brand. That pedigree of innovation is one of the things operators find extremely valuable.


The cost of transforming the Preview to Retail is very low. The legal costs of filing the FCC Waiver request plus the marketing and selling costs associated with adding another product into the product pipeline.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

> And by being in retail, we continue to believe we are able to control our own destiny,


He can't possibly believe that! They have practically ran the retail division into the ground!


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> He can't possibly believe that! They have practically ran the retail division into the ground!


A bigger influence on the decline of retail is low-cost cable operator provided DVRs with discriminatory policies against customers furnishing their own equipment. No doubt there have been software execution blunders that haven't helped the situation. The release of the Elite to retail is evidence that TiVo hasn't abandoned retail. TiVo's legal actions with the FCC is additional evidence. Their retail strategy with Comcast and Cox require a compelling retail premium offering.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

sbiller said:


> A bigger influence on the decline of retail is low-cost cable operator provided DVRs with discriminatory policies against customers furnishing their own equipment. No doubt there have been software execution blunders that haven't helped the situation. The release of the Elite to retail is evidence that TiVo hasn't abandoned retail. TiVo's legal actions with the FCC is additional evidence. Their retail strategy with Comcast and Cox require a compelling retail premium offering.


Whatever the reasons, they have done a terrible job at "controlling their own destiny."


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

sbiller said:


> A bigger influence on the decline of retail is low-cost cable operator provided DVRs with discriminatory policies against customers furnishing their own equipment. No doubt there have been software execution blunders that haven't helped the situation. The release of the Elite to retail is evidence that TiVo hasn't abandoned retail. TiVo's legal actions with the FCC is additional evidence. Their retail strategy with Comcast and Cox require a compelling retail premium offering.


The problem is the cable company DVRs aren't low cost. In the last 4+ years with FiOS, I would have spent much more money renting their DVRs instead of using my TiVos. so i would have paid more and had fewer features. Which would have made having the FiOS DVRs even a much worse deal.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> The problem is the cable company DVRs aren't low cost. In the last 4+ years with FiOS, I would have spent much more money renting their DVRs instead of using my TiVos. so i would have paid more and had fewer features. Which would have made having the FiOS DVRs even a much worse deal.


You forget though that FiOS constantly offers their DVR for free. October's offer was a free whole home DVR and HD STB for life.


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## chrislemasters (Jan 13, 2007)

I can imagine several uses for a Preview or two at the house - particularly if the specs are similar to the newer box (minus the hard drives). Plug one into a spare LCD PC monitor, for example.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> The problem is the cable company DVRs aren't low cost. In the last 4+ years with FiOS, I would have spent much more money renting their DVRs instead of using my TiVos. so i would have paid more and had fewer features. Which would have made having the FiOS DVRs even a much worse deal.


FIOS and cable aren't the same also cable company dvr's can do ondemand while tivo's can't yet.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

ajwees41 said:


> FIOS and cable aren't the same also cable company dvr's can do ondemand while tivo's can't yet.


But Tivo had Netflix, Amazon, Pandora, etc which the cable companies can't and won't do. I'd take these options over OnDemand any day. Plus Tivo has the ability to stream from a PC.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> You forget though that FiOS constantly offers their DVR for free. October's offer was a free whole home DVR and HD STB for life.


I have several TiVos. FiOS will not give out that many free DVRs. Over the last 4+ years it would have still cost me more.
But even without the cost, I prefer the TiVo over the FioS DVRs. My neighbors always complain about missed recordings, but they also won't get a TiVo.

Of course everyone has their own preferences.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> I have several TiVos. FiOS will not give out that many free DVRs. Over the last 4+ years it would have still cost me more.
> But even without the cost, I prefer the TiVo over the FioS DVRs. My neighbors always complain about missed recordings, but they also won't get a TiVo.
> 
> Of course everyone has their own preferences.


No disagreement here. I just think DVRs are given away for free or discounted so often that it isn't that expensive for most. Of course most houses aren't like yours and mine.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

aadam101 said:


> But Tivo had Netflix, Amazon, Pandora, etc which the cable companies can't and won't do. I'd take these options over OnDemand any day. Plus Tivo has the ability to stream from a PC.


Not just stream, but DOWNLOAD to a computer -- the EXACT show (for nonprotected content of course). Do *any* cable/satellite DVRs let you do that?

I know there is a recent addon for IIRC one of the satellite to let you take some of your content portably.. but IIRC, it *reencodes* it to a lower quality, plus it has a time limit on it and capacity limit.

Don't get me wrong, for a long time I thought this wasn't a great thing on Tivos, but just like Tivo itself, until you use it, you don't realize how useful it is. (IMHO, due to Tivo drives going bad, I wish I could _easily_ back up EVERYTHING from my Tivos, and have the Tivos themselves have just a tiny drive inside..)


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

Put me down for a subscription free Preview. I'd also like to see Tivo Desktop be able to stream content.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

P42 said:


> Put me down for a subscription free Preview. I'd also like to see Tivo Desktop be able to stream content.


TiVo has to pay monthly license fees to 3rd parties associated with the Preview. They won't offer it to retail without a subscription. I would expect them to offer a reduced-cost lifetime subscription.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

sbiller said:


> TiVo has to pay monthly license fees to 3rd parties associated with the Preview. They won't offer it to retail without a subscription. I would expect them to offer a reduced-cost lifetime subscription.


Why should there be license fees for simply remotely viewing something that's already been recorded? License fees paid to what 3rd parties? And who do we need to vote out of office to get that fixed?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

L David Matheny said:


> Why should there be license fees for simply remotely viewing something that's already been recorded? License fees paid to what 3rd parties? And who do we need to vote out of office to get that fixed?


Tribune provides the guide data. Since the Preview has a tuner it will have guide data. It can't display any guide data whether on the box or from other TiVos without a license.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

rainwater said:


> Tribune provides the guide data. Since the Preview has a tuner it will have guide data. It can't display any guide data whether on the box or from other TiVos without a license.


If tuners require a separate guide data subscription and presumably a drive to store the guide data and buffer live TV, I wonder how much cheaper it can be than a normal Premiere. Maybe TiVo should offer a streaming box that doesn't have tuners or a disk drive as part of their whole-house solution.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

L David Matheny said:


> If tuners require a separate guide data subscription and presumably a drive to store the guide data and buffer live TV, I wonder how much cheaper it can be than a normal Premiere. Maybe TiVo should offer a streaming box that doesn't have tuners or a disk drive as part of their whole-house solution.


I don't know that it would matter as far as license fees. Without a Tribune license, the Preview couldn't search for programs or display program info from other TiVos. Which would mean you couldn't stream from a Elite. So you would have a box with no functionality.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Wouldn't a Preview type device only require something akin to TiVo Basic on the old DVD units?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

SullyND said:


> Wouldn't a Preview type device only require something akin to TiVo Basic on the old DVD units?


Not with the networking features which will display Tribune data from other TiVos. TiVo Basic would only give you a few days of guide data which no ability to stream from other TiVos.


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## danjw1 (Sep 13, 2005)

L David Matheny said:


> If tuners require a separate guide data subscription and presumably a drive to store the guide data and buffer live TV, I wonder how much cheaper it can be than a normal Premiere. Maybe TiVo should offer a streaming box that doesn't have tuners or a disk drive as part of their whole-house solution.


Drive? No, it would probably be cheaper to go with flash memory for that.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

danjw1 said:


> Drive? No, it would probably be cheaper to go with flash memory for that.


Yeah, I'm certain the Preview has flash storage for storing some information (likely a small amount of guide data). Initially there isn't going to be a live tv buffer. I'm surprised they didn't provide enough flash storage for this however as flash storage is pretty cheap.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

rainwater said:


> I don't know that it would matter as far as license fees. Without a Tribune license, the Preview couldn't search for programs or display program info from other TiVos. Which would mean you couldn't stream from a Elite. So you would have a box with no functionality.


So don't let the hypothetical tunerless, driveless Preview model access any guide data at all. It would only have to access the Now Playing List (essentially a directory) on the remote TiVo. If that can't be accessed because it contains some text data that was once contained in a guide entry, then Tribune's lawyers have made fools of TiVo's lawyers.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

L David Matheny said:


> So don't let the hypothetical tunerless, driveless Preview model access any guide data at all. It would only have to access the Now Playing List (essentially a directory) on the remote TiVo. If that can't be accessed because it contains some text data that was once contained in a guide entry, then Tribune's lawyers have made fools of TiVo's lawyers.


Actually, afaik, displaying guide data from another TiVo probably does require some type of license albeit probably not the same as one that downloads guide data. Either way, TiVo isn't going to remove the tuner (and they shouldn't) as it would make producing the Preview not as cost effective dealing with multiple models. Plus, I don't think they want to deal with the issues of a tunerless extender.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

rainwater said:


> I don't know that it would matter as far as license fees. Without a Tribune license, the Preview couldn't search for programs or display program info from other TiVos. Which would mean you couldn't stream from a Elite. So you would have a box with no functionality.


If you take a look at the "whole-home dvr" solutions that are being offered by some of the major carriers (DirecTV, Comcast, Charter), all of the dvr brains are in the one server DVR. Additionally the receiving units have tuners. If the preview follows this model, I'll pass. What am I saving if I still have to buy the device, buy the service, and still have to get a cable card and pay that monthly fee?

The new generation of systems that are coming out (VIP722 with Slingbox from Dish and the HR34 from DirecTV) truly change the game. One central box has all of the brains and all of the receiving units are consumption slave devices. You can watch nearly live TV, but the tuner is in the central unit and the show is streamed to the slave unit. If you want to schedule something to record, you send the commands from the slave unit, but the actual magic happens on the central box and it's all done over MoCA. Now THAT is what I'm interested in. Just think how easy it is to setup a whole house that is pre-wired with RG6. Drop your 5-Tuner HR34 box in the family room next to the big screen and plug in the slave units at each other TV. The only connection needed at each location is the coax and the power.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

PrimeRisk said:


> If you take a look at the "whole-home dvr" solutions that are being offered by some of the major carriers (DirecTV, Comcast, Charter), all of the dvr brains are in the one server DVR. Additionally the receiving units have tuners. If the preview follows this model, I'll pass. What am I saving if I still have to buy the device, buy the service, and still have to get a cable card and pay that monthly fee?
> 
> The new generation of systems that are coming out (VIP722 with Slingbox from Dish and the HR34 from DirecTV) truly change the game. One central box has all of the brains and all of the receiving units are consumption slave devices. You can watch nearly live TV, but the tuner is in the central unit and the show is streamed to the slave unit. If you want to schedule something to record, you send the commands from the slave unit, but the actual magic happens on the central box and it's all done over MoCA. Now THAT is what I'm interested in. Just think how easy it is to setup a whole house that is pre-wired with RG6. Drop your 5-Tuner HR34 box in the family room next to the big screen and plug in the slave units at each other TV. The only connection needed at each location is the coax and the power.


But how much storage do they have? Do they allow you to offload storage to a PC? Even the Eliet with 2TB of storage is not alot for a whole home DVR. Plus for a family of five, four or five tuners will not be enough when everyone wants to watch TV in their own rooms.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> But how much storage do they have? Do they allow you to offload storage to a PC? Even the Eliet with 2TB of storage is not alot for a whole home DVR. Plus for a family of five, four or five tuners will not be enough when everyone wants to watch TV in their own rooms.


I believe that either of the units I cited have 1TB stock and have eSATA ports to expand. There is also nothing that says you can't have more than 1 unit in a house.

The MoCA technology is also a standard, so in the future you shouldn't have to buy the slave units from the service provider. The vision is to have MoCA enabled TVs, owned endpoints (think Roku puck or blu-ray player) and game console clients so you don't have yet another device and yet another remote to mess with.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

PrimeRisk said:


> I believe that either of the units I cited have 1TB stock and have eSATA ports to expand. There is also nothing that says you can't have more than 1 unit in a house.
> 
> The MoCA technology is also a standard, so in the future you shouldn't have to buy the slave units from the service provider. The vision is to have MoCA enabled TVs, owned endpoints (think Roku puck or blu-ray player) and game console clients so you don't have yet another device and yet another remote to mess with.


I have become a huge MoCa fanboy. I have MoCa up and running in 6 rooms for a cost of about $150. The only devices that are wireless are laptops and mobile devices. I have noticed a HUGE difference in my wireless reliability now that I only have a few devices using it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> I have become a huge MoCa fanboy. I have MoCa up and running in 6 rooms for a cost of about $150. The only devices that are wireless are laptops and mobile devices. I have noticed a HUGE difference in my wireless reliability now that I only have a few devices using it.


That's why you need multiple access points for the wireless devices. I have four APs in a 1350 sq. ft. condo so I don't have any speed issues with my wireless devices.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> That's why you need multiple access points for the wireless devices. I have four APs in a 1350 sq. ft. condo so I don't have any speed issues with my wireless devices.


I have/had multiple access points. I had to reboot them at least once a day. TivoToGo transfers were painful (I was using G adapters). I decided I either needed to upgrade to N adapters or switch to MoCa. My MoCa configuration costs the same as two Tivo N adapters would have cost. Plus, the MoCa addition is much more flexible in terms of what I can connect to it. I definitely made the right choice.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

aadam101 said:


> I have/had multiple access points. I had to reboot them at least once a day. TivoToGo transfers were painful (I was using G adapters). I decided I either needed to upgrade to N adapters or switch to MoCa. My MoCa configuration costs the same as two Tivo N adapters would have cost. Plus, the MoCa addition is much more flexible in terms of what I can connect to it. I definitely made the right choice.


You shouldn't need to reboot the APs. Mine have been up 24/7 for a couple of years now (except for when I moved the UPSs they are plugged into and a recent long power outage). I've never had a need to reboot them. I do have one set for n/g(2.4Ghz and on a UPS good for 16 to 19 hours), one set for 5Ghz N and two set for 2.4 Ghz N.
If any of them were to drop off my devices will automatically connect to the next AP with the strongest signal.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> You shouldn't need to reboot the APs. Mine have been up 24/7 for a couple of years now (except for when I moved the UPSs they are plugged into and a recent long power outage). I've never had a need to reboot them. I do have one set for n/g(2.4Ghz and on a UPS good for 16 to 19 hours), one set for 5Ghz N and two set for 2.4 Ghz N.
> If any of them were to drop off my devices will automatically connect to the next AP with the strongest signal.


For whatever reason, I did have to reset them constantly. I don't have that problem now that I am using MoCa.


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

aadam101, what make, model, and if possible version of firmware is on your access points? So we know what ones to avoid.


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## todd_j_derr (Jun 6, 2000)

I've had a Moxi for the past year and a half and the slave boxes (Moxi Mates) are exactly as PrimeRisk described (aside from built-in MOCA), so that's definitely not a new thing. There is no tuner, no disk or fan (which I love, I don't want to hear that when I'm trying to sleep) - it just streams (including Live TV with buffering) from the main unit. They sell for $300, no sub, or you can buy two of them as a "bundle" for $200/ea when you buy the DVR. That is a big reason I gave the Moxi a shot - 3 rooms, 3 tuners, 500GB = $1000 total including "lifetime", and I only have to pay for 1 cablecard. For Tivo, at the time I was looking at 3 premieres, I forget what the cost was with lifetime subs but it was a lot more, $1500-1800 - yes I would have had more tuners and capacity (although I didn't really need it) but also a bill for 3 CCs.

But, I (and probably more importantly, my wife) definitely don't like the Moxi as well as the Tivo and especially now that Arris has killed it, I'm looking to switch back. I've already spent $1000 just for the Elite (although admittedly 4 tuners + 2TB is a decent upgrade). I'm hoping that a retail preview does exist, will cost $300 including sub, and doesn't require a cablecard if you don't want to use one. A premiere + MSD lifetime is $500, if the preview comes in at $400 it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.


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## todd_j_derr (Jun 6, 2000)

BTW, I completely agree about MoCA - it's completely reliable and the real-world speeds are much higher than wireless (even n); I only use wireless for mobile devices. Running cat6 would certainly be nice but since I haven't run out of bandwidth on my MoCA network there's no need for that expense.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

If I can buy, not rent, Previews. I will take two to replace to stupid small SD verizon boxes in my Kitchen and Bedroom.

- Rich


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

RichB said:


> If I can buy, not rent, Premiers. I will take two to replace to stupid small SD verizon boxes in my Kitchen and Bedroom.
> 
> - Rich


I do not understand your comment. You do purchase the TiVo Premier and with lifetime service, you have no no additional fees (to TiVo). You do need a cable card and cable service from you cableco.

Edit - sorry, I believe you meant the Preview. I agree - I could use two of them.


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

bradleys said:


> I do not understand your comment. You do purchase the TiVo Premier and with lifetime service, you have no no additional fees (to TiVo). You do need a cable card and cable service from you cableco.
> 
> Edit - sorry, I believe you meant the Preview. I agree - I could use two of them.


Thanks. I did. I corrected the post.

- Rich


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

I wonder if the preview will come out in retail, with the *BIG* software update. Which is expected in the first Q of 2012.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

Leon WIlkinson said:


> I wonder if the preview will come out in retail, with the *BIG* software update. Which is expected in the first Q of 2012.


I don't think so. I think the Preview may come to retail in the summer time. There is some work involved in getting the Preview to support the OTT services like Netflix, Amazon, and BB. I can't see them bringing it to retail until it has a feature set that is almost equivalent to the generic Premiere.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

In addition to supporting the OTT services, we know from posts on RCN that TiVo is working on allowing a recording to be set remotely from the Preview on an Elite or Premiere. This is the behavior of the Verizon FiOS 1.9 whole-home DVR for example. I believe TiVo wants the Preview to act like a local DVR as much as possible and the ability to manage recordings is probably needed before they bring it to retail.


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## jwagner010 (Dec 8, 2007)

Whats the latest news on the Preview? Do we have a Retail release date? Do we know what functionality it will have for the retail channel?


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

http://www.techofthehub.com/2012/02/tivo-announces-new-boxes-and-grows-subscribers-with-2012-q4-results.html#comment-2715


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## RichB (Apr 2, 2003)

sbiller said:


> http://www.techofthehub.com/2012/02/tivo-announces-new-boxes-and-grows-subscribers-with-2012-q4-results.html#comment-2715


If there is no subscription fee, I will buy 2 so long as they are under $150.

- Rich


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

RichB said:


> If there is no subscription fee, I will buy 2 so long as they are under $150.
> 
> - Rich


I would think they need some kind of recurring fee. Otherwise they will have introduced a device that undercuts their other boxes. in the end they would bring in less money.
All they need to do is have a low monthly fee(and maybe a lower lifetime fee as well), like $5 and it would probably work since most people would not have an issue paying $5 a month for each box compared to the monthly cost of the regular boxes.


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## Budshark (Feb 24, 2012)

aaronwt said:


> I would think they need some kind of recurring fee. Otherwise they will have introduced a device that undercuts their other boxes. in the end they would bring in less money.
> All they need to do is have a low monthly fee(and maybe a lower lifetime fee as well), like $5 and it would probably work since most people would not have an issue paying $5 a month for each box compared to the monthly cost of the regular boxes.


Interesting thoughts...

A $199 "lifetime" box OR a $99 with a $5/mo box would be close to their current markups (20 month return to pay for lifetime).

At those numbers, I'd probably be in for 2 to replace my current Tivo Transfer -> Toast to iTunes -> AppleTV method of watching recorded shows on secondary TVs.


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## carroca (Jun 6, 2005)

I think there is misinformation in this article about the IP-STB being a retail Preview. See MegaZone's post where he specifically discusses this with TiVo representatives.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> I would think they need some kind of recurring fee. Otherwise they will have introduced a device that undercuts their other boxes. in the end they would bring in less money.
> All they need to do is have a low monthly fee(and maybe a lower lifetime fee as well), like $5 and it would probably work since most people would not have an issue paying $5 a month for each box compared to the monthly cost of the regular boxes.


The box is predicated on a user having at least one TiVo box in the home. This will make a perfect extender for a 2nd or 3rd TV. Its true that it will cannibalize some users who would have purchased a 2nd Premiere box but I think the gains will be worth it. It will be very discriminating box compared to other options. I do expect zero subscription fee since TiVo will not have to recoup the cost of guide data, etc. that would have been present in a retail CableCARD Preview box.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

The latest I've heard from TiVo - which was earlier today - there are no plans to bring the TiVo Preview to retail. They are tentatively planning to bring the IP STB (which is not the Preview, but a tunerless box) to retail. It will definitely be hitting MSOs, but the retail plans are still up in the air so there is nothing definite to report.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

megazone said:


> The latest I've heard from TiVo - which was earlier today - there are no plans to bring the TiVo Preview to retail. They are tentatively planning to bring the IP STB (which is not the Preview, but a tunerless box) to retail. It will definitely be hitting MSOs, but the retail plans are still up in the air so there is nothing definite to report.


Gabe posted in his comment thread on the story,



> Gabe Gagliano on February 24, 2012 at 4:17 pm
> I spoke to TiVo about this and they indicated that consumers would also be able to purchase the box. It may not be available at traditional retail like a Best Buy. Instead, TiVo has indicated that it would be available to purchase from them directly on-line.


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## carroca (Jun 6, 2005)

Awesome! I can't wait. I hope it is available direct-to-consumers in the same time frame (end of summer).


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

megazone said:


> The latest I've heard from TiVo - which was earlier today - there are no plans to bring the TiVo Preview to retail. They are tentatively planning to bring the IP STB (which is not the Preview, but a tunerless box) to retail. It will definitely be hitting MSOs, but the retail plans are still up in the air so there is nothing definite to report.


 Tunerless box without subscription fees would be the only thing that interests me and then only at a low price point ($100 or less). i.e. Purely a cheap extender. I don't see much money in it for TiVo for that and that means potentially undercutting their tuner boxes as already mentioned. So short of charging subscription I don't see the business model for TiVo in it.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

Obviously this is a game of we want to pay less and the MSO don't want to lose their additional outlet revenue. 

Who will eventually blink.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

moyekj said:


> Tunerless box without subscription fees would be the only thing that interests me and then only at a low price point ($100 or less). i.e. Purely a cheap extender. I don't see much money in it for TiVo for that and that means potentially undercutting their tuner boxes as already mentioned. So short of charging subscription I don't see the business model for TiVo in it.


Yep, pretty much my thinking. I don't think it will impact sales of the 2-tuner Premieres all that much, its main benefit is for extending the Elites or an alternative for those not willing to spend DVR money on secondary sets. If you're not going to spend the money on another Premiere with sub, this is a decent option instead. But agree that I can't see how they'd make much on it at $100 a pop, perhaps it's just an attempt to get mindshare away from Roku and Boxee. They can't charge a sub if they go that route.

Assuming it has all the good IP streaming options that those do, of course, which is a BIG if given Tivo's lackluster efforts with that stuff so far.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yep, pretty much my thinking. I don't think it will impact sales of the 2-tuner Premieres all that much, its main benefit is for extending the Elites or an alternative for those not willing to spend DVR money on secondary sets. If you're not going to spend the money on another Premiere with sub, this is a decent option instead. But agree that I can't see how they'd make much on it at $100 a pop, perhaps it's just an attempt to get mindshare away from Roku and Boxee. They can't charge a sub if they go that route.
> 
> Assuming it has all the good IP streaming options that those do, of course, which is a BIG if given Tivo's lackluster efforts with that stuff so far.


If it did have all of streaming options, I wonder if it would work as a standalone product without a Tivo in the house. Maybe they will try to compete with Roku and Apple TV. If there is one area where a company can beat Apple, it's the Apple TV.


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## PedjaR (Jan 4, 2010)

moyekj said:


> Tunerless box without subscription fees would be the only thing that interests me and then only at a low price point ($100 or less). i.e. Purely a cheap extender. I don't see much money in it for TiVo for that and that means potentially undercutting their tuner boxes as already mentioned. So short of charging subscription I don't see the business model for TiVo in it.


Of course it is hard to see a viable business model looking just at selling extenders to existing Tivo customers.

The business model should be trying to sell a whole house solution to potential new customers, which requires being competitive pricewise with cable (or satelite) "Whole House DVR" offerings. You can't sell the "get 2-4 Premieres with subscriptions" notion to that many people - it is just too expensive - but you can sell "get 1 Elite and 1-3 extenders" much easier, provided extenders are cheap, probably at the price you mention.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

2-tuner Tivos cannibalized single tuner boxes, the 4-tuner box cannibalizes 2-tuner boxes, and on it goes. It's not really a deal breaker in this age. Whole-home solutions is where the market is going. It's good for Tivo as long as Tivo is the center of that ecosystem, regardless of what kinds of boxes they are. The more hardware you buy, the more entrenched you get. It's still a win. It's nothing but a good thing to go beyond DVRs.

My W.A.G. is that the IP-STB won't be as cheap as a Roku because the MSO focus will likely mean the inclusion of MOCA. It'd be hard to imagine a sub in any case, as long as you have an existing one.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

I'm hoping the future lies in RVU/RVI technology along with DLNA standards. We are at the point where we now have single media servers like the Elite or the DirecTV HR34 that have enough power and features to serve the entire house's recording needs. From that point, you are just viewing the content across the LAN (MoCA, wireless, or good old copper). There are already a huge number of DLNA compatable TVs out there. I have an inexpensive Samsung that allows me to stream directly from my network and from the internet with no other box. All that is left is the RVU specs so I can have a more advanced control interface.

I'd like a future where I have one monster TiVo server in my Family Room or Basement with 6 tuners and 6TB of storage and the rest of my house is just TVs with RVU & DLNA.

Check out http://www.rvualliance.org/about_rvu for info on how RVU and DNLA work together.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Tivo seems to have no interest in either RVU or DLNA, for whatever reason. Makes absolutely no sense to me.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo seems to have no interest in either RVU or DLNA, for whatever reason. Makes absolutely no sense to me.


Actually they spoke last year about DLNA support. However, if we ever see it, it will be as a client. They will not be streaming TiVo recordings to other non-TiVo clients since they can't do that without encryption (cablelabs approval would never happen).


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Tivo seems to have no interest in either RVU or DLNA, for whatever reason. Makes absolutely no sense to me.


Isn't RVU unnecessary if All-Vid happens?


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

rainwater said:


> Actually they spoke last year about DLNA support. However, if we ever see it, it will be as a client. They will not be streaming TiVo recordings to other non-TiVo clients since they can't do that without encryption (cablelabs approval would never happen).


I don't know how long that will last, cable is already under pressure to keep up with the Joneses...DirecTV is already there with DLNA and RVU with its HR34 receiver that recently went nationwide. There are already a handful of TVs that are compliant.

It's a game of adapt or die. A year or two from now, if I'm still stuck with a STB that I have to pay for in every room at every TV, I'll eBay my Premieres and go back to DirecTV for their technology. My main HD TV is over 5 years old now and I'm getting ready for an upgrade. You better believe that I'm willing to fork over a few extra bucks for a DLNA and RVU compatible unit. There are also already RVU software clients for the desktop, android, and iOS. Watch your programming AND control the DVR on anything connected to your network. See, that's the beauty of RVU, you're not just getting another way to stream shows, you're getting a way to make the location of the unit irrelevant as you'll get the same control and interface at all points.

I'd say that was the future, but it isn't, it is already here.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

PrimeRisk said:


> I don't know how long that will last, cable is already under pressure to keep up with the Joneses...DirecTV is already there with DLNA and RVU with its HR34 receiver that recently went nationwide. There are already a handful of TVs that are compliant.


CableLabs will not allow non encrypted streams. At least not any time soon. Where TiVo could benefit is to basically use it to replace TiVo Desktop sharing (photos, videos, etc stored on the PC). I think you will see that before you see TiVo become a DLNA server.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

rainwater said:


> CableLabs will not allow non encrypted streams. At least not any time soon. Where TiVo could benefit is to basically use it to replace TiVo Desktop sharing (photos, videos, etc stored on the PC). I think you will see that before you see TiVo become a DLNA server.


It's still about adapt or die. I don't like having to have a STB where I can very cleanly mount a flat panel to the wall and nothing else and if the technology my CableCo will support won't cut it, I'll go back to satellite. And yes, I'm willing to pay for the privilege.

Just like DirecTV bringing back TiVo to their lineup. They didn't do it out of the kindness of their hearts, they did it because they found out that a lot of customers were more loyal to TiVo than the DTV service. If Comcast/Cox/TW and the likes start losing market share to DirecTV and Dish because they can't adapt, they will get the consortium members (like Comcast, Cox, and TW) to get off their duffs and change the rules.

While were at it, I'm just waiting for the day when all of this conversation is irrelevant. Who will be the first company to offer a full lineup of channels via streaming? No more cables, no more installs, no more infrastructure maintenance for the company. BYOI (Bring your own internet) and stream the rest. Heck if I was going to launch something like this I'd get into cahoots with Roku. Pay TV channel on your Roku. Offer pay by the drink like Amazon or Flat-Fee it like the CableCo. Heck, Xfinity is about 50% there right now. They just need to drop the love-in with Microsoft and push a client like Netflix. Google would be great, but they seem to have pissed off virtually every content owner out there. I guess Amazon would be my favorite. They already have the relationship with the content owners and have proven that they know how to do both VOD streaming and D/L for offline viewing. They have the Kindle Fire as a walled garden device for mobile viewing. They just need a partner with the hunger and cash to fight both the CableCos and the Sat companies (at the same time) for their core business. Too bad Amazon can't get along with Google, together they could be unstoppable.

All IMHO.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

PrimeRisk said:


> It's still about adapt or die. I don't like having to have a STB where I can very cleanly mount a flat panel to the wall and nothing else and if the technology my CableCo will support won't cut it, I'll go back to satellite. And yes, I'm willing to pay for the privilege.


You have to understand though that Cablelabs is a consortium of cable companies that have no integration with each other or even with themselves. If you think they will come up with a encryption standard for DLNA that could be adopted by CE manufacturers in the next 10 years, then you are probably still counting on Tru2way too. 

It is much easier for Directv and Dish as they don't have to deal with local differences or work with other systems.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

PrimeRisk said:


> It's still about adapt or die. I don't like having to have a STB where I can very cleanly mount a flat panel to the wall and nothing else and if the technology my CableCo will support won't cut it, I'll go back to satellite. And yes, I'm willing to pay for the privilege.
> 
> Just like DirecTV bringing back TiVo to their lineup. They didn't do it out of the kindness of their hearts, they did it because they found out that a lot of customers were more loyal to TiVo than the DTV service. If Comcast/Cox/TW and the likes start losing market share to DirecTV and Dish because they can't adapt, they will get the consortium members (like Comcast, Cox, and TW) to get off their duffs and change the rules.


Absolutely. Cable companies resent having to compete, but if they refuse then non-cable competitors will send them the way of the dinosaurs. I understand that entertainment industry lawyers (and their legislators) will never let digital content be streamed _and copied_, but if the DRM gods can be satisfied then streaming without any extra box is inevitable.



PrimeRisk said:


> While were at it, I'm just waiting for the day when all of this conversation is irrelevant. Who will be the first company to offer a full lineup of channels via streaming? No more cables, no more installs, no more infrastructure maintenance for the company. BYOI (Bring your own internet) and stream the rest. Heck if I was going to launch something like this I'd get into cahoots with Roku. Pay TV channel on your Roku. Offer pay by the drink like Amazon or Flat-Fee it like the CableCo. Heck, Xfinity is about 50% there right now. They just need to drop the love-in with Microsoft and push a client like Netflix. Google would be great, but they seem to have pissed off virtually every content owner out there. I guess Amazon would be my favorite. They already have the relationship with the content owners and have proven that they know how to do both VOD streaming and D/L for offline viewing. They have the Kindle Fire as a walled garden device for mobile viewing. They just need a partner with the hunger and cash to fight both the CableCos and the Sat companies (at the same time) for their core business. Too bad Amazon can't get along with Google, together they could be unstoppable.
> 
> All IMHO.


There are forces at work right now trying to rob more bandwidth from OTA broadcasters. Some want it for emergency responders, and some want it for mobile networking so they don't have to build more towers. If OTA TV ever goes away, I will have to switch to 100 pct streaming. Even assuming that cable is still viable without broadcast, I will never subscribe unless I can get cheap _a la carte_ pricing on a few channels of my choosing. That's not likely to happen, so I'll probably just buy lots of DVD or Blu-ray sets and read more.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

L David Matheny said:


> There are forces at work right now trying to rob more bandwidth from OTA broadcasters. Some want it for emergency responders, and some want it for mobile networking so they don't have to build more towers. If OTA TV ever goes away, I will have to switch to 100 pct streaming. Even assuming that cable is still viable without broadcast, I will never subscribe unless I can get cheap _a la carte_ pricing on a few channels of my choosing. That's not likely to happen, so I'll probably just buy lots of DVD or Blu-ray sets and read more.


I think we're going to see A La Carte pricing sooner rather than later, just be prepared to pay. Between Amazon and Hulu Plus we can get access to any broadcast or standard cable show we have interest in seeing. The only things missing are Premium Movie Channel shows (like Dexter, True Blood, etc) and Sports. The only way to stream those shows now is to wait.

But we are getting close with the sports. You CAN pay DTV to have streaming access to NFL Sunday Ticket without having a subscription to their service. Or you can stream NFL Rewind and only have to wait a little bit to watch a game. The last real hold out is Premium Movie Channels. If one of them flinches for new content, like Starz did when it signed the contract with Netflix for older stuff, they'll all come. I wouldn't mind paying my $10/month directly to HBO so I could get JUST HBO. Same for Showtime. The rest of the movie channels are, IMHO, irrelevant.

I'm just waiting for a company to offer the pure-streaming service. Just think of the data they can collect then! They know what you watched, when you watched it, and can even start figuring out who in your household is watching it by offering everyone in the household access to their own online queue of shows to manage. It is a targeted advertiser's wet dream. When the 16YO boy is watching something from his queue in the bedroom, you send Axe body spray and video game commercials. When the family is watching Survivor in the Family Room you send vacation commercials. When Mom and Dad are watching a Skinimax show late at night on the Master BR TV, you send KY Intense and Adam & Eve commercials.

There is a goldmine for someone to hit out there!


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## jcavalie (Sep 24, 2009)

Maybe TiVo should just have a private roku channel for TiVo users that can extend the premier elite content to other rooms that have rokus attached. Then, no need for them to design more hardware. I'd even pay some nominal monthly fee to TiVo for the private channel.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jcavalie said:


> Maybe TiVo should just have a private roku channel for TiVo users that can extend the premier elite content to other rooms that have rokus attached. Then, no need for them to design more hardware. I'd even pay some nominal monthly fee to TiVo for the private channel.


How would TiVo sell whole home DVR solutions like that? Cable companies have to offer whole home DVR solutions to stay competitive with the competition. TiVo is trying to be that solution. Creating an app for Roku doesn't really help that.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

rainwater said:


> Actually they spoke last year about DLNA support. However, if we ever see it, it will be as a client. They will not be streaming TiVo recordings to other non-TiVo clients since they can't do that without encryption (cablelabs approval would never happen).


Encryption has nothing to do with Tivo and DLNA support, because non-copy protected shows are not encrypted. How do you think pyTivo, streambaby, kmttg, etc. work? 
For the CP'd shows, DTCP-IP enables encrypted comms for DLNA.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

SullyND said:


> Isn't RVU unnecessary if All-Vid happens?


Maybe, but this proposal has gone nowhere since the FCC first proposed it a couple of years ago.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

PrimeRisk said:


> I'm just waiting for a company to offer the pure-streaming service.


Microsoft tried to do this with the Xbox, i.e. create an internet cableCo. But the content providers and existing MSOs like things the way they are, so they made it too expensive and MS had to bail.

Do you really think this will be any cheaper than a cable/sat sub today? They want their money train to keep running.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Encryption has nothing to do with Tivo and DLNA support, because non-copy protected shows are not encrypted. How do you think pyTivo, streambaby, kmttg, etc. work?
> For the CP'd shows, DTCP-IP enables encrypted comms for DLNA.


That doesn't mean Cablelabs would allow TiVo to do it however.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Cablelabs has nothing to do with whether Tivo supports DLNA, because it's already out there and has full DRM support. It's just a business decision by Tivo.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/07/cablelabs-demos-multiroom-dvr-and-dlna-servers/


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Microsoft tried to do this with the Xbox, i.e. create an internet cableCo. But the content providers and existing MSOs like things the way they are, so they made it too expensive and MS had to bail.
> 
> Do you really think this will be any cheaper than a cable/sat sub today? They want their money train to keep running.


I have no expectation that the service will be any cheaper than traditional cable or satellite service other than more competition could cause downward pressure. What I'm looking for is flexibility of service. I don't want to have to remember to record a show or deal with recording conflicts. If I discover a show I like 1/2 way into the season, I have to wait for reruns or hope that I can get it via Amazon or Hulu. If we move the model to subscriptions by content provider, my options get very flexible and the content provider has a chance to capture me as a customer because they offer just one show I like.

Technology convergence is also part of what I expect. If we can get the CableCos and SatCos to get along on the technology front, it's cheaper for them too. It can happen. Just look how the movie industry converged on DVD and Blu-Ray formats. There were competing technologies, but in the long run it is better for the content owners and the consumers. The only losers I can see are the proprietary hardware/software manufacturers that are making a mint off of the lack of standardization.

To this point, I think TiVo has a huge opportunity to be a technology convergence point in both a client and server capacity. They have been moving that way already by being a client for YouTube, NetFlix, Hulu, and Blockbuster. The MRS functionality is proprietary to TiVo (the way they do it). If they could also serve DLNA streams, they could make the end points standardized either through STBs like the Preview or other 3rd party smart devices that have the functionality built in.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

slowbiscuit said:


> Cablelabs has nothing to do with whether Tivo supports DLNA, because it's already out there and has full DRM support. It's just a business decision by Tivo.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/07/cablelabs-demos-multiroom-dvr-and-dlna-servers/


Any changes by TiVo to support obtaining recorded content from the TiVo requires Cablelabs approval. The fact is, that external companies like TiVo are subject to different regulations from Cablelabs than their own partners.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Encryption has nothing to do with Tivo and DLNA support, because non-copy protected shows are not encrypted. How do you think pyTivo, streambaby, kmttg, etc. work?
> For the CP'd shows, DTCP-IP enables encrypted comms for DLNA.


Copy protection and encryption are not entirely dependent on each other. While all copy protected shows are encrypted, shows can be encrypted without being copy protected. In fact, on Comcast, nearly all channels are encrypted, but only a handful are copy protected. That's why only limited basic channels are visible via clear QAM (and Comcast is requesting permission from the FCC to encrypt those as well).

None of that really matters though since all programs (even OTA) are encrypted once stored on the TiVo's hard drive using the TiVo box's private encryption key, regardless if they were encrypted originally or not. For cable encrypted channels, the channels are decrypted by the cablecards first and then re-encrypted using the TiVo's internal encryption key when stored on the drive. That's why encrypted (and even copy protected) cable recordings can be played back without the cablecard inserted and also why the MAK can be used to decrypt recordings transferred off the TiVo. That's also why you can't just pull the TiVo hard drive and extract the recordings off of it.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

PrimeRisk said:


> To this point, I think TiVo has a huge opportunity to be a technology convergence point in both a client and server capacity. They have been moving that way already by being a client for YouTube, NetFlix, Hulu, and Blockbuster. The MRS functionality is proprietary to TiVo (the way they do it). If they could also serve DLNA streams, they could make the end points standardized either through STBs like the Preview or other 3rd party smart devices that have the functionality built in.


Of course, but they've had this opportunity for at least 5 years now and have done very little with it. I think with the latest announcements that there's still hope that they've finally woken up and smelled the coffee, but we'll see.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

morac said:


> None of that really matters though since all programs (even OTA) are encrypted once stored on the TiVo's hard drive using the TiVo box's private encryption key, regardless if they were encrypted originally or not. For cable encrypted channels, the channels are decrypted by the cablecards first and then re-encrypted using the TiVo's internal encryption key when stored on the drive. That's why encrypted (and even copy protected) cable recordings can be played back without the cablecard inserted and also why the MAK can be used to decrypt recordings transferred off the TiVo. That's also why you can't just pull the TiVo hard drive and extract the recordings off of it.


But that was Tivo's business decision, not a Cablelabs requirement. WMC on a PC does not store .wtv files encrypted unless the CP flag is set, even if a Cablecard is used.

But in any case there is really no issue with Tivo's use of DLNA, Cablelabs or not, because as I said DLNA incorporates DRM via secure transmission. Cablelabs is not going to stop Tivo from using it, nor require recert of the devices.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

rainwater said:


> Any changes by TiVo to support obtaining recorded content from the TiVo requires Cablelabs approval. The fact is, that external companies like TiVo are subject to different regulations from Cablelabs than their own partners.


I don't claim to be any form of expert with Cablelabs, but you seem to be talking about the consortium as a Governmental or Regulatory agency. I don't believe they are. I understand that TiVo must comply with a number of standards so they can use CableCard technology, but that certainly doesn't preclude TiVo from streaming shows. TiVo is already delivering that service. Using standards like DLNA is only a different form of that very service.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

PrimeRisk said:


> I don't claim to be any form of expert with Cablelabs, but you seem to be talking about the consortium as a Governmental or Regulatory agency. I don't believe they are. I understand that TiVo must comply with a number of standards so they can use CableCard technology, but that certainly doesn't preclude TiVo from streaming shows. TiVo is already delivering that service. Using standards like DLNA is only a different form of that very service.


I didn't say it precludes them from streaming. I said any changes requires cablelabs approval. Cablelabs has to approve each TiVo that supports Cablecards. Any changes to the software that affect that content have to be approved as well afaik.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

And this is where we disagree - I don't think Tivo has to do anything to enable DLNA, but we'll probably never know.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

rainwater said:


> I didn't say it precludes them from streaming. I said any changes requires cablelabs approval. Cablelabs has to approve each TiVo that supports Cablecards. Any changes to the software that affect that content have to be approved as well afaik.


I believe a change was made a few years back that once a company had a CableLabs hardware certification done for a product, that any similar products could be self-certified.

The CableLabs certified hardware list shows that Premiere, Elite and Preview models were all "self-verified" by TiVo.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

morac said:


> I believe a change was made a few years back that once a company had a CableLabs hardware certification done for a product, that any similar products could be self-certified.
> 
> The CableLabs certified hardware list shows that Premiere, Elite and Preview models were all "self-verified" by TiVo.


Yes, I'm pretty sure it is based on the software. However, I'm guessing any changes that affects recording require re-certification.


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## csell (Apr 16, 2007)

PedjaR said:


> Of course it is hard to see a viable business model looking just at selling extenders to existing Tivo customers.


How about this business model for this new product - The more money they get you to invest in Tivo equipment, the more likely you will continue to be a Tivo subscriber. So even if they make a very small amount of money on the sale of each of these Tivo 'extenders', the more likely they will keep getting your monthly subscription fees. Just a thought...


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

rainwater said:


> I didn't say it precludes them from streaming. I said any changes requires cablelabs approval. Cablelabs has to approve each TiVo that supports Cablecards. Any changes to the software that affect that content have to be approved as well afaik.


Even if the Cablelabs lawyers managed to hoodwink TiVo's lawyers (and probably other industry victims), TiVo should offer full streaming capability for recordings from the antenna input (which doesn't use a cablecard) so that the market can help decide this issue. We OTA users shouldn't suffer just because cable users have no rights. And if TiVo's lawyers were so careless that just having a cablecard slot limits the unit, then TiVo should offer an OTA-only version of the Elite. I'd buy one.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

L David Matheny said:


> Even if the Cablelabs lawyers managed to hoodwink TiVo's lawyers (and probably other industry victims), TiVo should offer full streaming capability for recordings from the antenna input (which doesn't use a cablecard) so that the market can help decide this issue. We OTA users shouldn't suffer just because cable users have no rights. And if TiVo's lawyers were so careless that just having a cablecard slot limits the unit, then TiVo should offer an OTA-only version of the Elite. I'd buy one.


The problem is encourages users to use something other than the TiVo branded extenders (TiVo Preview). They are trying to sell the whole home solution, not cater to enthusiasts. Like I said, a TiVo rep already said that they were looking into possibly supporting DLNA as a client not a server. All of this is moot.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

PrimeRisk said:


> I have no expectation that the service will be any cheaper than traditional cable or satellite service other than more competition could cause downward pressure. What I'm looking for is flexibility of service. I don't want to have to remember to record a show or deal with recording conflicts. If I discover a show I like 1/2 way into the season, I have to wait for reruns or hope that I can get it via Amazon or Hulu. If we move the model to subscriptions by content provider, my options get very flexible and the content provider has a chance to capture me as a customer because they offer just one show I like.
> 
> Technology convergence is also part of what I expect. If we can get the CableCos and SatCos to get along on the technology front, it's cheaper for them too. It can happen. Just look how the movie industry converged on DVD and Blu-Ray formats. There were competing technologies, but in the long run it is better for the content owners and the consumers. The only losers I can see are the proprietary hardware/software manufacturers that are making a mint off of the lack of standardization.
> 
> To this point, I think TiVo has a huge opportunity to be a technology convergence point in both a client and server capacity. They have been moving that way already by being a client for YouTube, NetFlix, Hulu, and Blockbuster. The MRS functionality is proprietary to TiVo (the way they do it). If they could also serve DLNA streams, they could make the end points standardized either through STBs like the Preview or other 3rd party smart devices that have the functionality built in.


If one has to watch the advertisements with any streaming than I would want no part of it, even the few times i have streamed a missed show from the web with only 2 or three 1 minutes ads I hate it. I own my TiVos to remove the need to watch ads I don't want to, and parts of programs I don't want to see. I watch 90 minutes of network news most nights in about 40 minutes by skipping the ads and some stories I already saw on the other network, I like it that way. I got through the Oscars in about 80 minutes by skipping the parts I had no interest in, I love that feature.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

lessd said:


> If one has to watch the advertisements with any streaming than I would want no part of it, even the few times i have streamed a missed show from the web with only 2 or three 1 minutes ads I hate it. I own my TiVos to remove the need to watch ads I don't want to, and parts of programs I don't want to see. I watch 90 minutes of network news most nights in about 40 minutes by skipping the ads and some stories I already saw on the other network, I like it that way. I got through the Oscars in about 80 minutes by skipping the parts I had no interest in, I love that feature.


I think there is room for give and take in this scenario. If I am pulling the show from a free source, then I'll tolerate the commercials. If I'm paying for the source (like amazon for Netflix) there better be no commercials or you have to allow me to fast forward through the commercials. I think it is a fair trade. YMMV.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

PrimeRisk said:


> I have no expectation that the service will be any cheaper than traditional cable or satellite service other than more competition could cause downward pressure. What I'm looking for is flexibility of service. I don't want to have to remember to record a show or deal with recording conflicts. If I discover a show I like 1/2 way into the season, I have to wait for reruns or hope that I can get it via Amazon or Hulu.


..or iTunes. Basically, I'm honestly not quite sure what your issue is IF you're not expecting the price to be lower. Can't you pretty much get any of the shows you'd care about from one of those three (or four, if you count Hulu Plus separately) services?



PrimeRisk said:


> Technology convergence is also part of what I expect. If we can get the CableCos and SatCos to get along on the technology front, it's cheaper for them too. It can happen. Just look how the movie industry converged on DVD and Blu-Ray formats. There were competing technologies, but in the long run it is better for the content owners and the consumers.


Umm, neither of those "converged". You had DVD vs DiVX, and DiVX lost (I personally like collecting things, but rarely re-watch things, so _at a low enough re-watch price_, would not be opposed to something like DiVX..). You had HD-DVD and BluRay, and HD-DVD lost.

Fox and Paramount stuff took a VERY long time to show up on DVD.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

PrimeRisk said:


> I think there is room for give and take in this scenario. If I am pulling the show from a free source, then I'll tolerate the commercials. If I'm paying for the source (like amazon for Netflix) there better be no commercials or you have to allow me to fast forward through the commercials. I think it is a fair trade. YMMV.


For me if I could get my TV programing free with commercials or have the option of paying cable Co. and having (in my case) a TiVo DVR so after finding the programming I wanted I could just set up the season passes and not spend much time (after that) looking for show(s) I wanted to see and also not have to watch the pre- program, commercials, or anything I don't want to watch, I would pay for my cable service as is. Assuming I would still have to still pay for my Internet connection and two phone lines I don't see that big of saving, for some IPTV will work, for others like me, no way. (except for missed shows IE programs I missed with my 1 week power outage last October)


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

mattack said:


> ..or iTunes. Basically, I'm honestly not quite sure what your issue is IF you're not expecting the price to be lower. Can't you pretty much get any of the shows you'd care about from one of those three (or four, if you count Hulu Plus separately) services?


I don't have any issues, I just have feature desires. The problem with the litany of services for streaming is just what you say, "pretty much get". And I have to go from device to device to access them. I currently stream through my TiVo, Roku, and PS3 to be able to "pretty much get" what I want and when I want it. Well, in my experience that "pretty much" is only about 50%. I think it's a pain in the arse and when someone comes up with a good device and service so I can actually "pretty much get", they get my money and the rest of the devices are destined for the bin.



mattack said:


> Umm, neither of those "converged". You had DVD vs DiVX, and DiVX lost (I personally like collecting things, but rarely re-watch things, so _at a low enough re-watch price_, would not be opposed to something like DiVX..). You had HD-DVD and BluRay, and HD-DVD lost.
> 
> Fox and Paramount stuff took a VERY long time to show up on DVD.


Semantics here...the formats certainly didn't converge, but the devices servicing technologies did. I still have my LaserDisc player that also plays DVDs. I had a DVD player that also supported DiVX. HD-DVD and BluRay had their combo players too, but I never bit on that tech. That's what I'm looking for, a device that will converge the technologies for consumption.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

rainwater said:


> I didn't say it precludes them from streaming. I said any changes requires cablelabs approval. Cablelabs has to approve each TiVo that supports Cablecards. Any changes to the software that affect that content have to be approved as well afaik.





PrimeRisk said:


> I don't claim to be any form of expert with Cablelabs, but you seem to be talking about the consortium as a Governmental or Regulatory agency. I don't believe they are. I understand that TiVo must comply with a number of standards so they can use CableCard technology, but that certainly doesn't preclude TiVo from streaming shows. TiVo is already delivering that service. Using standards like DLNA is only a different form of that very service.





rainwater said:


> Any changes by TiVo to support obtaining recorded content from the TiVo requires Cablelabs approval. The fact is, that external companies like TiVo are subject to different regulations from Cablelabs than their own partners.


Tivo just has to use approved encryption. Cablelabs would have to approve any new method of encrption that tivo proposes to use to protect flagged content. I think HDCP, Tivo's encryption, and real networks are the only 3 that cablelabs approves of currently (of memory from years ago- they may have added others).

there was some provision or agreement that cablelabs had (I think from FCC feedback) that cablelabs has like 60 or 90 days to approve new encryption proposals. And then I believe there is a way to appeal to the FCC if cable arbitrarily denies a new type.

Tivo and or DLNA could ask to get DTCP-IP approved by cablelabs and it would be difficult for cablelabs to make a denial stick. I'm not sure but i think DTCP might even already be approved as protection for firewire outputs on cbale rented STB's?

this might not be the most recent:
http://www.cablelabs.com/opencable/udcp/downloads/DigitalOutputs.pdf

oh wait looks like DTCP-IP is already on the approved list? (again might be a newer version someplace) :
http://www.cablelabs.com/opencable/udcp/downloads/DFAST_Tech_License.pdf



> DTCP-IP. Licensed Product may output Controlled Content, and pass Controlled
> Content to an output in digital form where such output is protected by DTCP-IP.
> When so outputting or passing such content to a DTCP-IP output, the Licensed
> Product is required to: (a) process all valid DTCP System Renewability Messages
> ...


http://www.dlna.org/dlna-for-industry/digital-living/how-it-works/technical-overview



> DLNA's Protected Streaming Guidelines leverage Digital Transmission Content Protection over Internet Protocol (DTCP-IP) to securely share commercial content between devices in a consumer's home network, but not with third parties.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

PS- interesting question if tivo will be a DLNA client or server....


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> PS- interesting question if tivo will be a DLNA client or server....


TiVo stated several months ago they were only looking at possibly supporting client mode. I think even that happening is remote.


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