# Better Call Saul “Saul Gone” 8/15/22



## redrouteone (Jun 16, 2001)

86 years, damn. Guess he got to see Kim again which is what he wanted.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I guess Jimmy got to use his time machine. The best he could.

what a ride.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Just an old-fashioned love song.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

A few weeks ago I told @jsmeeker that the show needed a finale with finality, and the only option would be Saul’s death. But that would suck because Walter died in the finale. Smeek pointed out that him in prison is also final.


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## boywaja (Sep 30, 2001)

I didn't like the open. Although it was nice to see the desert southwest again. and color.
But once Bill Oakley came in, i was fanboying and enjoyed the rest of the episode.

Not sure it makes a lot of sense. 
Jimmy's speech didn't save kim from a civil suit
(although I think eventually ms hamlin would realize Kim didn't have to say anything. And Kim doesn't have any assets. And Kim lives in florida where her house is protected from judgement)
Jimmy's goal in allocution was reconciliation with Kim. Gotta think there are better ways than going to prison for an extra 80 years. Was it worth it for one cigarette? Guess it was in tv land. 

Watching live, i felt they stuck the landing, and i think I'll still feel that way in the future.

next TC meet is in abq for some unsliced pizza and a RV tour


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

A worthy ending. And he did come out on top as he said he would. Then he gave it all up for the woman he loved. He became Jimmy and all the potential he had. 

It was an unexpected end, and in some ways I think that BCS is a better show than BB was.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

boywaja said:


> Not sure it makes a lot of sense.
> Jimmy's speech didn't save kim from a civil suit
> (although I think eventually ms hamlin would realize Kim didn't have to say anything. And Kim doesn't have any assets. And Kim lives in florida where her house is protected from judgement)
> Jimmy's goal in allocution was reconciliation with Kim. Gotta think there are better ways than going to prison for an extra 80 years. Was it worth it for one cigarette? Guess it was in tv land.


Same here, a little confused. He spilled some beans to implicate Kim, which he didn't need to do.. and he then took the 86 years to get Kim off. He could have stuck with the 7 years and Kim would be in about the same position. 

Other than that, a great ending.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

I want to add that it was good seeing Marie again, and I am glad she got her closure.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Most of me wishes the series had ended some 4 episodes ago.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

My son and I both absolutely hated the ending. He has proclaimed that this show is no longer his favorite show ever.

He threw away 7 years of minimum security so he can save Kim (and get 86 years in max sec?). Give me a break.


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## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

Absolutely Sweet Marie


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Anubys said:


> He threw away 7 years of minimum security so he can save Kim (and get 86 years in max sec?). Give me a break.


And the only reason Kim needed to be saved was that he implicated her for all those things in his previous statements. He could have just STFU and done the 7 years minimum security and be out to live the rest of his life. Maybe with Kim, maybe not. 

I find it hard to believe VG and PG ended it this way -- even Jimmy/Saul isn't that dumb/lovestruck to spend the rest of his life in prison just for the girl he'll never be out to enjoy life with. The only thing I can think of is that Jimmy did this just to protect him from himself and scamming more people and possibly getting Kim caught up in it again. OTOH, perhaps he learned his lesson with what happened to Howard Hamlin. Who knows for sure. 

I think a better ending would have been a 10 to 15 year plea-bargain and Kim visits him once in a while.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I loved it. Was engaged and found the entire episode compelling and entertaining and appreciate the ending the more I think about it (not that I didn't like it to begin with). I don't see his decision as being just about Kim, although his desire to see her again might have been one of the bigger factors to push him towards taking the leap and walking away from the original deal. 

Up until four episodes ago, the entire series was about the transformation from Jimmy to Saul, with the final piece of the puzzle being when Kim left him. For most of these last four episodes, it looked as if Saul had completely taken over and there was nothing left of Jimmy. They even had me wondering if there was ever any good in Jimmy or if Chuck was completely right about him all along. In the end, Jimmy was still in there and he let him back out. I thought it was a nice touch how at the start of the courtroom scene, they mentioned that he requested that he be referred to as Saul Goodman but at the end, after following through with his plan to do the right thing, he said he was James McGill. I also thought it was telling that at one point somebody (the judge?) said that he was not to blame for his brother's death and he disagreed. 

In my view, the shared cigarette at the end was between Jimmy and Kim, not Saul and Kim, and the final look before the fade to black was pure artistry. Sure, Jimmy is now benefiting in prison from his fame as Saul, but the transformation back to Jimmy is complete. Well done!


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Great episode, I admit to not watching all of Saul in the earlier seasons especially as it got drawn out, but these last few were excellent. 

As for the 86 year sentence - I think it was to get to see Kim again - face it - if Kim got prosecuted she'd be locked up as well and Jimmy and Kim wouldn't have ever gotten back together. But here, there was an opportunity to see her again, and in the future.

FYI, you might have disregarded it, but it turns out that little AMC promo at the beginning introducing the series finale, and the card just before the actors give their thanks and the credit roll is *extremely important.*



Spoiler: AMC Title Cards



In the beginning, the hangar is swinging wildly. In the end, it's showing a shirt from BCDC.

But as you saw in the last scene, Jimmy was wearing a hoodie with "ADX Montrose" on it.

BCDC = Bernalillo County Detention Center. Jimmy got trasnferred for good behavior.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

boywaja said:


> And Kim lives in florida where her house is protected from judgement)


Awesome catch.


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## dslunceford (Oct 19, 2000)

Did anyone catch, as Jimmy mentioned his brother in the courtroom, the cut to the exit sign with clear electronic buzz in background? Before the Chuck flashback? Little details like that (and the FL house or Chuck reading HG Wells) are awesome.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

While I expected Saul to be in prison at the end, I didn't exactly expect him to revert back to James McGill. I get how others just aren't buying that whole part. 

He changed to protect Kim? Its not really clear to me that his extra confessions in the court hearing would have really made any real difference to her. It was all weird to me starting with the conversation on the airplane back to ABQ. Seemed like the audience was supposed to think Saul was gonna screw he over somehow to totally save himself. 

SO, I guess he was shocked Kim turned herself in after their brief phone call and then decided to do the same.?


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

To me, his courtroom change of story was very much like Walter White finally changing his story to Skyler with "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And I was really alive".


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

The flashbacks in the episode - Mike, Walter, Chuck, all had a purpose.

First, they were about regrets, and what Jimmy/Saul would change if he could. Second, in each of the flashbacks, the other character pointed out that Jimmy/Saul was always a money grubbing scumbag with no morals.

Mike would change taking a bribe that would lead to the death of his son. Jimmy would invest in Berkshire Hathaway. Walt wouldn't have walked away from the company. Jimmy wouldn't have hurt himself during a slip and fall. Walt said, "So, you were always this way??"

_James_ wanted to show that he wasn't always that way. Or at least, he wasn't that way anymore. He didn't want to pull another one over but face up to all the things he's done.

Of course, he could have taken the 7.5 years and gotten out and been an exemplary community servant. Not sure what he accomplishes with life in prison.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I feels like James/Jimmy is really living life on the inside as Saul. All the inmates know him that way.. They like him that way.. It's beneficial for Jimmy to be Saul. I just imagine Saul trying to help other inmates get their convictions over turned, or sentences reduced or released earlier and all that.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

dslunceford said:


> Did anyone catch, as Jimmy mentioned his brother in the courtroom, the cut to the exit sign with clear electronic buzz in background? Before the Chuck flashback? Little details like that (and the FL house or Chuck reading HG Wells) are awesome.


I liked that Kim was under the Alaska Airlines sign when at the ABQ airport for departures/arrivals in the previous episodes.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Or how about that Saul was being transported on a Wayfarer plane.


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## hummingbird_206 (Aug 23, 2007)

I said last week the ending was going to be either Saul dead or in prison. Glad they chose prison. I loved this episode. I think they stuck the landing.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

I didn't love it either. The B&W Gene stuff has been going on for so long, I don't think this really paid all of that off in a satisfying way. He was easily caught and convicted, getting a worse deal by all measures despite how all series we've seen him do the opposite. This needed some elaborate scheme to be satisfying IMO.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

DancnDude said:


> I didn't love it either. The B&W Gene stuff has been going on for so long, I don't think this really paid all of that off in a satisfying way. He was easily caught and convicted, getting a worse deal by all measures despite how all series we've seen him do the opposite. This needed some elaborate scheme to be satisfying IMO.


Totally agree. His last big/fun scheme was getting a hundred+ of years of a consecutive sentence down to 7 years which was great.. but then threw it way because.... ?


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Hank said:


> Totally agree. His last big/fun scheme was getting a hundred+ of years of a consecutive sentence down to 7 years which was great.. but then threw it way because.... ?


... A Girl.

It is a tale as old as time.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

dwatt said:


> ... A Girl.
> 
> It is a tale as old as time.


I know.. but in exchange for life in prison? Not much "girl" to get at that point.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Depends on how you are defining "to get".


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

It wasn't to save or protect Kim. He did it to save his soul. Or that's what he was thinking at the time.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

dwatt said:


> Depends on how you are defining "to get".


Sure.. in theory it could be argued that he "got the girl".. but starting at year #8 and for the rest of his life, he might be _regretting _that decision.



Turtleboy said:


> It wasn't to save or protect Kim. He did it to save his soul. Or that's what he was thinking at the time.


Agreed. But that's still a very high price to pay, when he sold out Kim just to turn around and save her by taking the life sentence.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I liked the episode overall, but I didn't love the ending. I keep reading reviews that talk about how Saul ultimately redeemed himself by making this huge sacrifice for Kim, but I don't really get it. Based on what the other lawyer told him, it seemed like Kim wasn't really in any danger of being charged criminally, and even after what Saul said in court, she would still be facing a possible civil suit from Howard's wife. If their intention was for Saul to save Kim, then it was sloppy writing, something you rarely see from this show. Saul having to spend the rest of his life in prison was obviously meant to be some sort of redemption for the character, but his decision to take that path instead of doing just the seven years felt kind of forced. Again, I think the writing just didn't make Saul's motivations very clear. A few little tweaks and this could have been a perfect episode.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

You guys seem to be missing that fact that Jimmy->Saul->Gene hated his new Cinnabon life. He even resorted back to scheming because he hated that life. Had he served his 7 years he would have still been in that life as there is no way he could be a lawyer again and he could easily see how he would screw up again.

At least in jail he has a purpose.


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## jgickler (Apr 7, 2000)

I really liked the ending. I think that the character of Jimmy was complex, he was a hard worker, he wanted to help his elderly clients, he loved Kim, he loved his brother, etc. But as he started losing the things that were important to him ( like his brother and Kim), he turned into Saul, a character whose only real love was for money. To the point that by the time he met up with WW, it was all Saul, Jimmy was gone. Then in the ending, his confession in court showed that Jimmy was still there, that he had regrets, and the only way he felt he could save Jimmy from Saul was to confess his wrong doing, and ask for forgiveness. Not from the judge, but from Kim. 

As for the prison sentence, I think that the 86 years is actually pretty light sentence for the crimes he committed and admitted in court. If I am reading things correctly, the federal penalty for conspiracy to commit murder is up to life. And he admitted to conspiracy to kill Hank and his partner. If the feds had really thrown the book at Saul, he would be facing dozens of life sentences. Plus, those are federal charges, I'm sure that if the feds could only lock him up for 7 years, the state of New Mexico would have been able to dig up some more charges to pin on Saul without double jeopardy. So all in all, I think that Saul got Jimmy a pretty good deal. 

I also have to wonder what Jimmy would do if he got out in 7 years with no law license, all his criminal buddies long dead, no Kim, no brother, he has a degree of fame for being a conman, and no more Cinnabon. I doubt life outside of prison is going to be much more enjoyable for Jimmy then life in prison where he at least seems to be respected by his fellow inmates and his legal advice is valued.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

zalusky said:


> You guys seem to be missing that fact that Jimmy->Saul->Gene hated his new Cinnabon life.
> ...
> At least in jail he has a purpose.


Like making cinnamon rolls.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

dwatt said:


> Like making cinnamon rolls.


You got to get to the hearts I meant stomachs of the other prisoners first.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

He didn't stick with the seven years because Gilligan/Gould/Odenkirk didn't want everyone bugging them for a movie or reboot in seven years.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

zalusky said:


> At least in jail he has a purpose.





jgickler said:


> I doubt life outside of prison is going to be much more enjoyable for Jimmy then life in prison where he at least seems to be respected by his fellow inmates and his legal advice is valued.


This is clearly what they were going for; that he had a renewed sense of purpose as someone who could not only help his fellow inmates, but was highly respected by them. I just wish they had handled the whole thing a little more cleanly. There needed to be a lightbulb moment where Jimmy realized that he wasn't meant for the outside world, and that his destiny was to help others by using his legal skills. This epiphone obviously happened in his head, but it wasn't made very clear to the audience, and the stuff with Kim only served to made the whole shift from Saul back to Jimmy more convoluted.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

gweempose said:


> This is clearly what they were going for; that he had a renewed sense of purpose as someone who could not only help his fellow inmates, but was highly respected by them. I just wish they had handled the whole thing a little more cleanly. There needed to be a lightbulb moment where Jimmy realized that he wasn't meant for the outside world, and that his destiny was to help others by using his legal skills. This epiphone obviously happened in his head, but it wasn't made very clear to the audience, and the stuff with Kim only served to made the whole shift from Saul back to Jimmy more convoluted.


I like to think the trashcan moment was the metaphor of how low his life had sunk!


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Outstanding. I thought it was great. A satisfying ending. I'm glad he didn't just get away with everything.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

boywaja said:


> Not sure it makes a lot of sense.
> Jimmy's speech didn't save kim from a civil suit
> (although I think eventually ms hamlin would realize Kim didn't have to say anything. And Kim doesn't have any assets. And Kim lives in florida where her house is protected from judgement)
> Jimmy's goal in allocution was reconciliation with Kim. Gotta think there are better ways than going to prison for an extra 80 years. Was it worth it for one cigarette? Guess it was in tv land.





Anubys said:


> My son and I both absolutely hated the ending. He has proclaimed that this show is no longer his favorite show ever.
> 
> He threw away 7 years of minimum security so he can save Kim (and get 86 years in max sec?). Give me a break.


I really don't think he did it to "save" Kim from anything. He did it to regain her love and trust. He could see how she was looking at him, and he couldn't abide that. Kim was the love of his life and she was sitting on the side of the courtroom with everyone else that was against him. He just wanted to get her back on his side. 

And he knew he deserved to be in prison for a lot longer than 7 years. By owning up to everything and accepting the full weight of the law, he feels like he's actually getting what he deserves, which finally gives him a measure of peace.


Hank said:


> And the only reason Kim needed to be saved was that he implicated her for all those things in his previous statements. He could have just STFU and done the 7 years minimum security and be out to live the rest of his life. Maybe with Kim, maybe not.


Kim didn't need to be saved, and I don't think Saul implicated her in anything. He really didn't even mention her until the last second in the negotiations when he thought he could use the Howard Hamlin thing to get the sentence even lower, and then it turned out they already knew everything. That's when he realized Kim had finally done the right thing and cleared her conscience, and he probably needed to do the same. But him truly clearing his conscience wouldn't result in no jail and a potential threat of a civil suit. For him, it meant spending the rest of his life in prison. So really, the number of years was irrelevant to him. He knows he'll die in prison and he's accepted that.


Worf said:


> As for the 86 year sentence - I think it was to get to see Kim again - face it - if Kim got prosecuted she'd be locked up as well and Jimmy and Kim wouldn't have ever gotten back together. But here, there was an opportunity to see her again, and in the future.


I don't think it was so much about making it so Kim would be able to visit him. It was about regaining her respect so she would WANT to visit him. Look at the difference in the phone conversation and their final conversation. That's what meant the most to Jimmy.


Worf said:


> FYI, you might have disregarded it, but it turns out that little AMC promo at the beginning introducing the series finale, and the card just before the actors give their thanks and the credit roll is *extremely important.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree with your spoiler. We saw him in that jumpsuit before the trial. It was simply pointing out that he got caught and sent to jail. It's not supposed to be a crystal ball into the future. Plus, I don't think there would be any way to get transferred from a Federal prison to a county detention center based on good behavior. Those are two completely different systems.


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## jgickler (Apr 7, 2000)

One thing I would have liked to have seen, maybe it was cut, but it would be nice to see Carol Burnett get a big reward check. I believe this picture is from a teaser promo, but I assume it was shown in one of the episodes, or it is at least some kind of series canon.


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## jgickler (Apr 7, 2000)

I just read that Burnett will not be eligible for the Guest Actor. There is a rule that you must be in less then 50% of the episodes under consideration. Since the BCS season was split up, the first half of the season falls under the 2022 Emmys and the second half in 2023.. Since she appeared in more then 50% of the 2023 season episodes, Carol Burnett's only chance for the Emmy is if she is nominated for supporting actress.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

She'll still get the nom; possibly the win, and Rhea Seehorn will move from the supporting actress category to lead actress.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

zalusky said:


> You guys seem to be missing that fact that Jimmy->Saul->Gene hated his new Cinnabon life. He even resorted back to scheming because he hated that life. Had he served his 7 years he would have still been in that life as there is no way he could be a lawyer again and he could easily see how he would screw up again.
> 
> At least in jail he has a purpose.


I think this was the reason for the scene on the bus to jail. He will be a big shot in jail. Everybody will be using him to try and get a new trial, etc...

To him this is a much better life than working at cinnabon.

-smak-


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> She'll still get the nom; possibly the win, and Rhea Seehorn will move from the supporting actress category to lead actress.


I seriously doubt Rhea Seehorn will submit as lead actress for these final six episodes. Of all the episodes of the whole series, this is the stretch of episodes where she was least involved.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I forgot to add Jim O'Heir is the candidate for guest actor, and I don't think individual actors submit for themselves; it's either Sony or the show runners who put that stuff together. For example for this year I think they were planning to apply for best lead actress for Rhea Seehorn because I saw a promotion tweet, but either Sony or the Academy realized the competition was just too overwhelming and changed the application to the supporting actress category.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> I forgot to add Jim O'Heir is the candidate for guest actor, and I don't think individual actors submit for themselves; it's either Sony or the show runners who put that stuff together.


No, it's the individual actors and their representation. They can choose to coordinate with the other actors and the studio if they want, but the choice is made by each individual nominee. For example, acting nominees have to decide which episode they want to submit as their entry. It's not judged based on their whole performance over the course of a season.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

The rules say either producers or individuals can submit. Producers have the responsibility of notifying the actor/actress if they submit for them. Producers have the incentive of trying to increase the residual and marketing value of the show. There are 6 noms for lead categories and 8 noms for supporting, so that has to factor into which category producers/actors decide to apply for.


https://www.emmys.com/sites/default/files/Downloads/2022-rules-procedures-v5.pdf


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> The rules say either producers or individuals can submit. Producers have the responsibility of notifying the actor/actress if they submit for them. Producers have the incentive of trying to increase the residual and marketing value of the show. There are 6 noms for lead categories and 8 noms for supporting, so that has to factor into which category producers/actors decide to apply for.
> 
> 
> https://www.emmys.com/sites/default/files/Downloads/2022-rules-procedures-v5.pdf


Yes, it's possible the producers can submit on behalf of a performer in their show. But from my understanding, it's not usually done that way. Usually the individual performer (or more likely, their talent agent) submits an entry.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559418255646679046


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Everybody keeps talking about seven years, but if I interpret things correctly, that was on its way out the window...according to his co-counsel's note, the judge was known for imposing statutory sentences, and it certainly seemed like she was headed in that direction before Jimmy derailed things. I don't know what that would have been for the crimes he was pleading to, but I get the impression it would have been a lot more than seven years...


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## redrouteone (Jun 16, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Everybody keeps talking about seven years, but if I interpret things correctly, that was on its way out the window...according to his co-counsel's note, the judge was known for imposing statutory sentences, and it certainly seemed like she was headed in that direction before Jimmy derailed things. I don't know what that would have been for the crimes he was pleading to, but I get the impression it would have been a lot more than seven years...


I was thinking the same thing this morning. If he hadn’t said anything, he might not have gotten 86 years, but would have still been man old man when he got out. At least this way he got to redeem himself in Kims eyes.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> according to his co-counsel's note, the judge was known for imposing statutory sentences


The note said "Don't worry, Judge S. always follows gov sentencing recs."

IOW, she always imposes the Government prosecutors' recommended sentencing. Jimmy would had served seven years if he hadn't spoken up.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Everybody keeps talking about seven years, but if I interpret things correctly, that was on its way out the window...according to his co-counsel's note, the judge was known for imposing statutory sentences, and it certainly seemed like she was headed in that direction before Jimmy derailed things. I don't know what that would have been for the crimes he was pleading to, but I get the impression it would have been a lot more than seven years...


That's not how I interpreted it. The note from Bill Oakley said that she always goes along with the sentencing recommendations from the government. So he was basically saying to Jimmy not to be worried about how she's trying to make it look like she's not on board.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> The note said "Don't worry, Judge S. always follows gov sentencing recs."
> 
> IOW, she always imposes the Government prosecutors' recommended sentencing. Jimmy would had served seven years if he hadn't spoken up.


Ah, I misunderstood when it flashed across the screen (and didn't rewind to look closer). It sure sounded like she was objecting to the proposed sentence...


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Ah, I misunderstood when it flashed across the screen (and didn't rewind to look closer). *It sure sounded like she was objecting to the proposed sentence...*


That was the point of the note. Bill Oakley knew from the way she was starting to question the agreed-upon sentence that she was going to beat up on the government lawyer for having agreed to that given the circumstances, but Oakley wrote the note to reassure Jimmy that even though it sounded like she wasn't going to accept it, she always ended up accepting it.

Reminds me of a tweet I saw today:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559330884574007296


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Kim didn't need to be saved, and I don't think Saul implicated her in anything. He really didn't even mention her until the last second in the negotiations when he thought he could use the Howard Hamlin thing to get the sentence even lower, and then it turned out they already knew everything.


Respectfully, I think you're discounting the entire conversation on the plane with Bill Oakley (this happened after the scene you are referring to) with the US Marshal "listening" and can "pass along anything he says to help the govt's case...and pass along to the prosecution" and then says that Saul has "more to trade" (about Hamlin) and just remembered something that will "make their toes curl". Prior to that, Bill Oakley says that the DA has nothing on Kim, no witnesses, no hard evidence, etc and probably won't do anything. Bill then says "anything that makes their toes curl is bound to bind Kim up" and "if you give the Gov't more, maybe they bring the hammer down".

Then the very next scene a few days later, Kim is in the law office late at night and she gets a call that tells her that Saul "has given testimony that affects you personally". So he very clearly supplied some sort of damning testimony about Kim in the Hamlin case. So yeah, I think Kim needed to be saved from that testimony -- and in fact in the next scene in the courtroom sentencing hearing, he purgers himself over that sworn testimony to "save Kim" and throws his 7 years away. In his speech, he says "I lied to the gov't about Kim Wexler -- I gave them a load of BS about her involvement in the Hamlin murder"


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Saul speaking up on the plane was a ruse to get Kim into the courtroom to hear his full and complete confession. He told her as much. I don't think he really had anything on her that would have withstood scrutiny.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

One of the fakest things that TV shows do about the law is compress the time that things take. How long was it from Gene's arrest to the sentencing hearing? In the show, it looks like it's less than a week. In reality, it would be several months. But all TV shows do that.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> Saul speaking up on the plane was a ruse to get Kim into the courtroom to hear his full and complete confession. He told her as much. I don't think he really had anything on her that would have withstood scrutiny.


Except that he is a witness to her confession and can corroborate her entire story, which would jam both of them up.

The only reason he had to confess was to save Kim from the BS story he told the feds previously.

If he was going to confess anyway, he could have found some way to get Kim to the courtroom without implicating her in the Hamlin murder and putting her life in jeopardy.


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## MaxH42 (Apr 8, 2009)

jgickler said:


> I really liked the ending. I think that the character of Jimmy was complex, he was a hard worker, he wanted to help his elderly clients, he loved Kim, he loved his brother, etc. But as he started losing the things that were important to him ( like his brother and Kim), he turned into Saul, a character whose only real love was for money. To the point that by the time he met up with WW, it was all Saul, Jimmy was gone. Then in the ending, his confession in court showed that Jimmy was still there, that he had regrets, and the only way he felt he could save Jimmy from Saul was to confess his wrong doing, and ask for forgiveness. Not from the judge, but from Kim.
> 
> As for the prison sentence, I think that the 86 years is actually pretty light sentence for the crimes he committed and admitted in court. If I am reading things correctly, the federal penalty for conspiracy to commit murder is up to life. And he admitted to conspiracy to kill Hank and his partner. If the feds had really thrown the book at Saul, he would be facing dozens of life sentences. Plus, those are federal charges, I'm sure that if the feds could only lock him up for 7 years, the state of New Mexico would have been able to dig up some more charges to pin on Saul without double jeopardy. So all in all, I think that Saul got Jimmy a pretty good deal.
> 
> I also have to wonder what Jimmy would do if he got out in 7 years with no law license, all his criminal buddies long dead, no Kim, no brother, he has a degree of fame for being a conman, and no more Cinnabon. I doubt life outside of prison is going to be much more enjoyable for Jimmy then life in prison where he at least seems to be respected by his fellow inmates and his legal advice is valued.


I think you and DevDogAZ see it the way I see it. Jimmy still couldn't help but use his skills to work a deal, just because he could, but he didn't really care about 7 years vs. the rest of his life without Kim, or at least Kim's approval. Even approval is a bit strong...maybe acceptance? He did it because he knew what HE could live with was pretty horrible, he wanted to be someone SHE could live with (not cohabitate, but tolerate). 

And when they shared their last cigarette, didn't the overhead light have that same odd angle on the as it did in the garage?


----------



## fusionh3_5928 (7 mo ago)

smak said:


> I think this was the reason for the scene on the bus to jail. He will be a big shot in jail. Everybody will be using him to try and get a new trial, etc...
> 
> To him this is a much better life than working at cinnabon.
> 
> -smak-


Either way, he's still baking.


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## fusionh3_5928 (7 mo ago)

Didn't like the ending. Gene was trapped and caught too easily. Diamonds in a bandaid tin.. Grabbing a shoe box to go on the run. Passing a fence opening to jump in a dumpster. Opening the bandaids and tossing diamond all over the trash. Gene/Saul/Jimmy were too smart for any of that.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

How did it implicate Kim?
I mean before his "revelation" on the plane.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> How did it implicate Kim?
> I mean before his "revelation" on the plane.


Not sure how to answer, as what I'm discussing started with the conversation on the plane, where he decided to give testimony against Kim (only to later recant that in court).


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Hank said:


> Not sure how to answer, as what I'm discussing started with the conversation on the plane, where he decided to give testimony against Kim (only to later recant that in court).


I'm trying to see when he changed his mind to recant and give this confession. I don't think it's shown and Gilligan and Gould are better at revealing those details.


----------



## Microman66 (Nov 29, 2004)

Hated the ending. Come on the guy is smart. 7 years vs life? If he couldn’t figure that out all that sad goodbye to Kim has no meaning. What a let down.


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## ThePhoenix (Feb 13, 2008)

DevdogAZ said:


> I really don't think he did it to "save" Kim from anything. He did it to regain her love and trust. He could see how she was looking at him, and he couldn't abide that. Kim was the love of his life and she was sitting on the side of the courtroom with everyone else that was against him. He just wanted to get her back on his side.
> 
> And he knew he deserved to be in prison for a lot longer than 7 years. By owning up to everything and accepting the full weight of the law, he feels like he's actually getting what he deserves, which finally gives him a measure of peace.
> 
> ...


What a great post! In my opinion you’ve completely captured what was going through Jimmy/Saul’s mind. 

I came here because I really needed people to explain the ending to me. You nailed it.


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## jr461 (Jul 9, 2004)

I took it as this:

His only goal was resolution with Kim so he didn't change his mind about confessing; it was his intention all along but he needed one more long-ish con to get there with her. 

Just accepting life in prison without this scam would not have accomplished anything and accepting the plea wouldn't have garnered Kim's forgiveness. He first got as light a sentence as possible knowing it would result in a jaw-dropping spectacle in court when he contradicted everything he said to get the deal. When he was in court he quietly said, "it's showtime". 

It was always his plan and it had to be a dog and pony show for Kim to see but he had to get her there. He concocted this new "curl your toes" testimony which resulted in the phone call to her.

It was always about Kim over himself as when Lalo killed Hamlin. He convinced Lalo to let Kim go assuming Lalo would stay there and kill her (or him). I think he was hoping she'd just keep driving somewhere far away. He was not concerned about life in prison - it's her forgiveness he wanted over all else and he couldn't live with himself in or out of prison without it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Like I said before. It should've just ended 4 episodes or so earlier.


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

gweempose said:


> There needed to be a lightbulb moment where Jimmy realized that he wasn't meant for the outside world


In the prison kitchen -- "I got you Saul" ... was that moment. He's among his element, where he belongs. Where he finally has the respect he's craved his entire life.

4 words, very poignant, IMO. Kinda wraps the whole thing up and makes sense of the entire allocution.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ThePhoenix said:


> What a great post! In my opinion you’ve completely captured what was going through Jimmy/Saul’s mind.
> 
> I came here because I really needed people to explain the ending to me. You nailed it.


@DevdogAZ did summarize it very well. I completely agree that this was what the show was trying to show us.

The only problem I have is that it was stupid 

Other problems people here have noted is how Saul had no escape plan. He didn't even have a hoard of cash and a "go" bag. Add to it that Kim had very little Hamlin's wife would sue her for, and this redemption seemed very forced and sudden (only explained by flashbacks that seemed hastily arranged at the end and felt more like cameos).


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

I said it before he hated the Gene life this was a ticket to a life he would emjoy.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

zalusky said:


> I said it before he hated the Gene life this was a ticket to a life he would enjoy.


Although judging by his reaction on the prison bus, he wasn't expecting it to be so...positive.


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## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

Wayfarer! Was it a 737?


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## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

series5orpremier said:


> He didn't stick with the seven years because Gilligan/Gould/Odenkirk didn't want everyone bugging them for a movie or reboot in seven years.


I want a Saul in Prison show now, though.


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## TeddS (Sep 21, 2000)

To me, Jimmy needed to regain his identity - and the stakes needed to be high (this is TV after all). So the price he paid for becoming the good Jimmy again is 86 years in prison (the number 86 means to throw away or kill something, so I'm sure it was picked on purpose) rather than the negotiated-by-lies 7 years. He's not lucky 7 any more, he's sacrificial 86.

Kim has escaped Jimmy's leading her into a life of crime by imposing upon herself a kind of prison - of indecisiveness and banality. Jimmy was also leading a similar kind of life as Gene. But Kim's turnaround and fessing up showed Jimmy what the right thing to do was, and Jimmy's reclaiming of his identity showed Kim the way for reclaiming _her _identity. In the end, they are back to who they were again, smoking the same cigarette, and sharing a life, in a way. Jimmy almost didn't make it - he was very tempted to kill an old lady and a cancer victim. That would have been truly losing himself.

Throughout the final episode flashbacks, Jimmy's flirting with the idea of a time machine to go back and fix problems in the past is rightly pointed out by Walter White as a cheat and not worth taking seriously. Jimmy tried to do the time machine trick by telling a sob story about how he was a victim too, changing the meaning of things in his past, but when he reclaimed the truth about who he really was, he became himself again. That was the goal, not avoiding prison. Walter also could have run away at the end of his show, but he sacrificed himself for a greater good (saving Jesse, killing the Nazi cartel, and being true to himself).

The glimmer of hope in the interactions he's having in prison, rather than the disgust he had previously about the general prison population, shows how much better of a person he's become. He'll probably take Kim's lead and do legal good deeds for the other prisoners for a long time to come. But there's really no drama in that - Jimmy's identity is pretty much settled (for the better). So the show ends.


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## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

TeddS said:


> I want a Saul in Prison show now, though.


It could be like a weekly serial, case of the week show!


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

kdelande said:


> It could be like a weekly serial, case of the week show!


And a half hour comedy one at that. Jailhouse Jimmy anyone?

Oh and with a laugh track.


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## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

dwatt said:


> And a half hour comedy one at that. Jailhouse Jimmy anyone?
> 
> Oh and with a laugh track.


_"In this week's episode..."_
Jimmy tries to win a jailhouse bet involving the warden's pet shark and a guard's prized motorcycle.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

They could do a remake of Hogan's Heroes with Jimmy in New Mexico...


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## Guy Fleegman (12 mo ago)

Most Obv choice:
_The Great Prison Bake-Off Show._


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## Old Hickory (Jan 13, 2011)

I've enjoyed reading everyone's opinion on the finale. It's interesting to see how we can watch the same show yet leave it with different results.

So for you guys who are so good with the timeline, where did Walt's death and Jimmy's arrest fit? Thanks.


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## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Old Hickory said:


> I've enjoyed reading everyone's opinion on the finale. It's interesting to see how we can watch the same show yet leave it with different results.
> 
> So for you guys who are so good with the timeline, where did Walt's death and Jimmy's arrest fit? Thanks.


Walt’s death: September 7, 2010 (you can pin this since Walt celebrates his birthday)

Jimmy’s calls to Francesca and Kim: November 12, 2010 (Jimmy’s birthday)

Jimmy’s arrest: Early December, 2010 (not sure if there’s anything that can pin this)


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

kaszeta said:


> Walt’s death: September 7, 2010 (you can pin this since Walt celebrates his birthday)
> 
> Jimmy’s calls to Francesca and Kim: November 12, 2010 (Jimmy’s birthday)
> 
> Jimmy’s arrest: Early December, 2010 (not sure if there’s anything that can pin this)


Do we know when Walt and Saul called the Vacuum Store and were disappeared? I always thought Walt was gone a year but if Saul was only in Nebraska for 6 to 9 months then that doesn't hold true.


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## EscapeGoat (Oct 12, 2008)

Guy Fleegman said:


> _"In this week's episode..."_
> Jimmy tries to win a jailhouse bet involving the warden's pet shark and a guard's prized motorcycle.


And if he wins the bet, the warden has to get Jimmy a desk and fake marble columns that will fit in his prison cell/office.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dwatt said:


> Do we know when Walt and Saul called the Vacuum Store and were disappeared? I always thought Walt was gone a year but if Saul was only in Nebraska for 6 to 9 months then that doesn't hold true.


They got disappeared from ABQ in spring of 2010. I think March.

Edit:

The timeline says it was right around March 15, 2010. 



https://breakingbad.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline#Season_5B


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## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

dwatt said:


> Do we know when Walt and Saul called the Vacuum Store and were disappeared? I always thought Walt was gone a year but if Saul was only in Nebraska for 6 to 9 months then that doesn't hold true.


Walter ends up in New Hampshire in April and then in early September he goes back to New Mexico, so Walter was gone for about 5 months. Jimmy/Saul/Gene is arrested in December, so he was in Nebraska for about 9 months.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Bruce24 said:


> Jimmy/Saul/Gene is arrested in December, so he was in Nebraska for about 9 months.


Since they started including the Gene flash-forwards, it always seemed that that was _years_ into the future. Not just 9 months. I don't recall there being any indication of time during those early B+W flash-forwards. 

My wife wants to go back and watch BCS (she didn't really pay attention until this season)...and those flashforwards are going to hit totally different for me the second time around.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Hank said:


> Since they started including the Gene flash-forwards, it always seemed that that was _years_ into the future. Not just 9 months. I don't recall there being any indication of time during those early B+W flash-forwards.
> 
> My wife wants to go back and watch BCS (she didn't really pay attention until this season)...and those flashforwards are going to hit totally different for me the second time around.


I think a lot of that has to do with his hair or lack of it in the black and white scenes. It gives the impression of him aging more when in fact the the hair from BCS and BB was a toupee the entire time. That was revealed in in one of the opening sequences at his mansion.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I didn't recognize the scene with WW and SG in a basement. It looked like they were both on the run. Was this scene explained or used in BB?

so many initials, so TIA


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## kdelande (Dec 17, 2001)

The original scene from BB (I literally just watched this last night as part of a rewatch with my wife [1st time seeing BB for her]) had both Walt and Saul in the basement of Ed's vacuum shop but the scene above is new footage shot for BCS that expands on the BB scene with a conversation we didn't see previously.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Huge auction of BCS props, costumes, etc is ongoing. Prices are too high for me but if you're dying for something like a signed new-in-box burner phone or an empty Zafiro Añejo bottle, this is your opportunity.

























Better Call Saul Online Auction … August 18 - September 1, 2022


Propstore presents an exclusive online auction of over 250 original props, costumes, and more from the production of Seasons 1 through 6 of Better Call Saul!



propstoreauction.com


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

pdhenry said:


> Huge auction of BCS props, costumes, etc is ongoing. Prices are too high for me but if you're dying for something like a signed new-in-box burner phone or an empty Zafiro Añejo bottle, this is your opportunity.
> View attachment 74450
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno, Cliff Main's suit is $250 right now.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

There are a few things I'd be interested in.. but I'll wait till the end of the auction to see what the real prices are (and maybe try to snipe).


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

If I were a collector, I'd be after any of the branded stuff - Los Pollos Hermanos cups & trays, the Davis and Main stuff and something recognizable like Hector's bell (I think the one at auction is a "prototype," not the one used on-air)...


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

I really want one of the Zafiro bottles and stoppers, but I think they're going to go very high.


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## dwatt (Jan 11, 2007)

Hank said:


> I really want one of the Zafiro bottles and stoppers, but I think they're going to go very high.


I wonder what the folks in the 3D printing thread would be able to accomplish for the stopper? Granted it wouldn't be set verified but it would still look cool.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

dwatt said:


> I wonder what the folks in the 3D printing thread would be able to accomplish for the stopper? Granted it wouldn't be set verified but it would still look cool.


I know very little about 3D printing, and I'm sure they could make a close approximation... but the real stopper looks like it has thin copper strips representing the agave plant, which I think would be harder to do in resin.


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## ThePhoenix (Feb 13, 2008)

I’d be interested in a University of American Samoa sweatshirt, but - the prices! And, add an extra 25% to that final bid price for the “Buyers Premium”.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

Me, I'm interested in Jimmy's Palm Pilot. I've had several of them over the years and that one just speaks to me.


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## jeremy3721 (Feb 16, 2002)

I liked it, neither he nor Kim died which seems to be the only creative most shows can come up with for a finale (main character must die for his previous sins)

looking forward to Better Call Kim.


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## steveco3 (5 mo ago)

Hi, I'm new to these forums and I don't know if this is the right place to talk about it but it bothered me that Howard Hamlin's wife who earlier this season wanted nothing to do with him and was very estranged suddenly becomes the good, caring wife after his murder. What are your thoughts on this?


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

steveco3 said:


> Hi, I'm new to these forums and I don't know if this is the right place to talk about it but it bothered me that Howard Hamlin's wife who earlier this season wanted nothing to do with him and was very estranged suddenly becomes the good, caring wife after his murder. What are your thoughts on this?


I don't think that anyone (or very few people) in the show knew they were having marital problems... so now once he's gone, to the outside world it makes sense she'd play the good doting wife instead of "yeah, we were about to get divorced anyway". It's a secret best kept to herself, IMHO.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

steveco3 said:


> Hi, I'm new to these forums and I don't know if this is the right place to talk about it but it bothered me that Howard Hamlin's wife who earlier this season wanted nothing to do with him and was very estranged suddenly becomes the good, caring wife after his murder. What are your thoughts on this?


She was more concerned about how people thought of him after his death because of Saul and Kim’s scam.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tony_T said:


> She was more concerned about how people thought of him after his death because of Saul and Kim’s scam.


And I suspect Saul & Kim's actions didn't help Howard & Cheryl's relationship...she might be feeling extra guilt over that.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I think it makes perfect sense. She loved him enough at one point to marry him. He's clearly a decent person. So while they were in the process of separating/divorcing, she would still have a lot of affection for him as well as a ton of respect. Once Howard died, the reasons for the separation and estrangement become almost irrelevant and all the person would feel is the loss.


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## Tecocat (Jan 24, 2005)

Anubys said:


> My son and I both absolutely hated the ending. He has proclaimed that this show is no longer his favorite show ever.
> 
> He threw away 7 years of minimum security so he can save Kim (and get 86 years in max sec?). Give me a break.


I think you both missed the point. He implicated Kim so he could get her into court so she could hear him coming clean about everything from beginning to end (including the stuff about his brother). He took the 87 years so he could become “good Jimmy” again and so he could earn Kim’s respect back. He also knew that implicating Kim wasn’t going to be a problem, because he knew he was just going to recant what he said about her, as he did. He never intended to take the 7-year deal….that’s why he threw the ice cream thing at the end. He was just messing with them, and also laying the groundwork for getting Kim there.

I hope that this helps you and your son appreciate the beauty of the show even more than you did before you got angry at it!


----------



## Tecocat (Jan 24, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Of course, he could have taken the 7.5 years and gotten out and been an exemplary community servant. Not sure what he accomplishes with life in prison.


I actually don’t think life in Prison is going to be all that different for him than life on the outside. At the max security prison in Albuquerque, he was protected from any harassment by his fame and popularity in that area and he‘s still working baking stuff, like his last job as Gene. I’ll bet he spends a lot of the rest of his time being a kind of “jailhouse lawyer,” and also flexing his abilities to influence and con people into doing what he wants. And then there’s the hint that later he ends up in the nice cushy prison, where he can also play golf. He knew exactly what he was doing beat-for-bear during the plea negotiation…planting all the various seeds that would ultimately come to fruition. He’s truly a master conman!


----------



## Tecocat (Jan 24, 2005)

DancnDude said:


> I didn't love it either. The B&W Gene stuff has been going on for so long, I don't think this really paid all of that off in a satisfying way. He was easily caught and convicted, getting a worse deal by all measures despite how all series we've seen him do the opposite. This needed some elaborate scheme to be satisfying IMO.


You missed the point. He got caught because he made one small mistake (mentioning Albuquerque) and mostly because he had gotten into such a bad place and had become so rotten that he made stupid moves when he robbed the guy with cancer. But everything that happened after that was planned, once he found out that Kim had come clean and I think he realized that he needed to do so, too. He never intended to take that 7-year deal…I’ve explained my take on thar in another comment, so you can read the rest there.


----------



## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Funny, how all this arguing and discussion and worry and disagreement completely disappears if the damn series had just ended about 4 episodes ago like it should have. When it went B&W it went off the rails.


----------



## Tecocat (Jan 24, 2005)

dswallow said:


> Funny, how all this arguing and discussion and worry and disagreement completely disappears if the damn series had just ended about 4 episodes ago like it should have. When it went B&W it went off the rails.


I would have hated that…ending on “bad Jimmy.” I was very happy seeing him opt for redemption at the end (which I think may also have had the side benefit of getting Kim out of her deep depression). I love that Saul’s begin and end ending was kind of the opposite of WW’s.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tecocat said:


> I actually don’t think life in Prison is going to be all that different for him than life on the outside. At the max security prison in Albuquerque, he was protected from any harassment by his fame and popularity in that area and he‘s still working baking stuff, like his last job as Gene. I’ll bet he spends a lot of the rest of his time being a kind of “jailhouse lawyer,” and also flexing his abilities to influence and con people into doing what he wants. And then there’s the hint that later he ends up in the nice cushy prison, where he can also play golf. He knew exactly what he was doing beat-for-bear during the plea negotiation…planting all the various seeds that would ultimately come to fruition. He’s truly a master conman!


But again, when he started getting celebrity treatment on the bus to the prison, it was a complete shock to him. At first he was desperately trying to avoid being recognized. It was pretty clear he was expecting his life to be much harder than it turned out to be.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tecocat said:


> You missed the point. He got caught because he made one small mistake (mentioning Albuquerque) and mostly because he had gotten into such a bad place and had become so rotten that he made stupid moves when he robbed the guy with cancer. But everything that happened after that was planned, once he found out that Kim had come clean and I think he realized that he needed to do so, too. He never intended to take that 7-year deal…I’ve explained my take on thar in another comment, so you can read the rest there.


Speaking of missing the point...

He made the 7-year deal before he learned anything about Kim. So he was fully prepared to "saul" his way into a cushy prison term. 



Tecocat said:


> I think you both missed the point. He implicated Kim so he could get her into court so she could hear him coming clean about everything from beginning to end (including the stuff about his brother). He took the 87 years so he could become “good Jimmy” again and so he could earn Kim’s respect back. He also knew that implicating Kim wasn’t going to be a problem, because he knew he was just going to recant what he said about her, as he did. He never intended to take the 7-year deal….that’s why he threw the ice cream thing at the end. He was just messing with them, and also laying the groundwork for getting Kim there.
> 
> I hope that this helps you and your son appreciate the beauty of the show even more than you did before you got angry at it!


And, here again you tell me I'm wrong about something I didn't say. The post that you quoted simply says I didn't like the ending. I don't mention Kim at all.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Tecocat said:


> He implicated Kim so he could get her into court so she could hear him coming clean


This whole notion of "getting Kim into court" still makes no sense to me. She went to court entirely voluntarily that day, and she had no idea Saul was going to come clean like he did ("it's showtime"). She didn't have to go. It was just a sentencing hearing, not even a trial. At that point, Jimmy had 7 years and was likely going to get to keep it because the judge always goes with the DA recommendations (and Kim would have likely known this just as Bill Oakley did). Also, she would have had to traveled from Florida back to Albuquerque just for the sentencing hearing? 

And as part of that plea bargain, doesn't that already imply that he is pleading guilty to a subset of his charged crimes? So he is already 'coming clean'. 

And IANAL, but up to that point, if Saul/Jimmy did corroborate Kim's testimony/confession (as he said he would do on the plane), couldn't the feds have taken her into custody by that time pending indictment? Remember when Bill Oakley said they would probably "bring the hammer down" on the plane if Saul testified -- which he did. 

If you're saying he traded 7 years in a cushy prison with ice cream on Fridays for 86 years maximum security ONLY so Kim could hear his true confessions, I'll say that still makes absolutely no sense to me, and never will. Finally, all that bad stuff he confessed to at the hearing (the Walter White stuff) -- all that happened AFTER KIM LEFT HIM.


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## Tecocat (Jan 24, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But again, when he started getting celebrity treatment on the bus to the prison, it was a complete shock to him. At first he was desperately trying to avoid being recognized. It was pretty clear he was expecting his life to be much harder than it turned out to be.


That may be true, which would make his mea culpa in court all that more powerful. But, while he was surprised on the bus with the degree of support (maybe…hard to know what’s an act with him), I‘m sure he also knew that he knew some folks in that prison who might be able to help him. I still believe that he _chose_ that prison, and for a good reason. Knowing they were going to want to put him in max, he planted that seed with his own form of “don’t throw me in the briar patch.”


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Tecocat said:


> That may be true, which would make his mea culpa in court all that more powerful. But, while he was surprised on the bus with the degree of support (maybe…hard to know what’s an act with him), I‘m sure he also knew that he knew some folks in that prison who might be able to help him. I still believe that he _chose_ that prison, and for a good reason. Knowing they were going to want to put him in max, he planted that seed with his own form of “don’t throw me in the briar patch.”


Well, he was trying pretty hard to avoid being recognized. I think his positive celebrity came as a complete surprise to him.


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## Tecocat (Jan 24, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, he was trying pretty hard to avoid being recognized. I think his positive celebrity came as a complete surprise to him.


As I said, that may be true, but I’m also sure he knew there would be people in there who would know, and probably help, him, from past relationships. He may not have anticipated his level of celebrity though.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

jeremy3721 said:


> looking forward to Better Call Kim.


“Need your sprinkler repaired?
Better call Kim”
😁


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Hank said:


> If you're saying he traded 7 years in a cushy prison with ice cream on Fridays for 86 years maximum security ONLY so Kim could hear his true confessions, I'll say that still makes absolutely no sense to me, and never will. Finally, all that bad stuff he confessed to at the hearing (the Walter White stuff) -- all that happened AFTER KIM LEFT HIM.


That's fine. So tell us when he decided to recant the earlier victim story and tell all.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> That's fine. So tell us when he decided to recant the earlier victim story and tell all.


On the plane. Everything after that point was planned. The new testimony and the recant. But I can't tell you why he did it knowing full well he'd lose the 7 years.

edit: It's not like he decided to implicate Kim in all those crimes and bring her down with him. And then later decided to recant that testimony.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

In BB, I understand that they wanted to show the bad guys (including WW), not winning in the end, but they did view Jessie as not as bad, and had him get away in the end. Saul, while taking advantage of the situation and allowing the crimes to continue in BB, did have a point that he couldn’t report them or walk away without risking getting killed, so they didn’t want to have him die at the end of BCS, but he didn’t deserve life in prison. Kim pushed the scam to ruin Howard (though not expecting him to be killed), and she gets away with only a guilty conscience (that she cleaned by confessing?). 

Great show, enjoyed the series and finale, but the writers should have ended with Saul “coming out on top”


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Hank said:


> On the plane. Everything after that point was planned. The new testimony and the recant. But I can't tell you why he did it knowing full well he'd lose the 7 years.
> 
> edit: It's not like he decided to implicate Kim in all those crimes and bring her down with him. And then later decided to recant that testimony.


Good - you're not trying to argue that her mere presence in the courtroom was what triggered his change of tune.
On the plane he learned that Kim was unlikely to face criminal prosecution, but she faced a civil suit from Hamlin's widow. While Bill (lawyer) is in the toilet after telling Jimmy about Kim's jeopardy you see a change in Jimmy's face and he launches the plan.
Kim's volunteering at the legal aid office when she gets a call from Suzanne Ericson about Jimmy being in New Mexico and about to give testimony that affects Kim.
Next you see Jimmy in court and Kim is there (to see what he's going to say, arguably). At the minimum, the ruse Jimmy launched in the plane caused her to be there. Jimmy sees that she's there and says under his breath, "It's showtime."
For what it's worth, in court he says he lied about her involvement to get her to show up at the hearing so she could hear his confession.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

Tony_T said:


> Great show, enjoyed the series and finale, but the writers should have ended with Saul “coming out on top”


He broke good at the end. In a sense, that's on top.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Tony_T said:


> In BB, I understand that they wanted to show the bad guys (including WW), not winning in the end, but they did view Jessie as not as bad, and had him get away in the end. Saul, while taking advantage of the situation and allowing the crimes to continue in BB, did have a point that he couldn’t report them or walk away without risking getting killed, so they didn’t want to have him die at the end of BCS, but he didn’t deserve life in prison. Kim pushed the scam to ruin Howard (though not expecting him to be killed), and she gets away with only a guilty conscience (that she cleaned by confessing?).
> 
> Great show, enjoyed the series and finale, but the writers should have ended with Saul “coming out on top”


Saul didn't deserve life in prison and should have come out on top?!?! Were we watching the same show?


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> Good - you're not trying to argue that her mere presence in the courtroom was what triggered his change of tune.


No I am not. But is anyone saying that Kim's presence trigger Jimmy in the moment to confess? I hadn't heard that one before.



pdhenry said:


> Next you see Jimmy in court and Kim is there (to see what he's going to say, arguably).


And that's the thing -- that was just a sentencing hearing, not a trial. He wasn't obligated to speak, and really only got to speak after begging the judge. 
Kim likely already knew he got a light 7 year sentence.. what "more" could he say at the sentencing hearing to help his case (which is why the judge and Oakley were trying to get him to shut up). 
Kim, as a lawyer, wouldn't have had any expectation of Jimmy saying anything of significance at the hearing, other than maybe a plea to the judge accept the plea bargain (i.e. Kim's rational expectation of how a defendant would behave at a sentencing hearing). She would never had expected him to confess like that and get her off the hook. 



pdhenry said:


> At the minimum, the ruse Jimmy launched in the plane caused her to be there.


I still don't agree -- at that point Kim was implicated by Saul's new testimony and probably getting into some pretty deep legal hot water herself because of it (and I'm surprised she wasn't in custody already, but let's just leave that one alone). The only reason she would have gone there would have been to see if the judge gave him a bigger sentence. 



pdhenry said:


> Jimmy sees that she's there and says under his breath, "It's showtime."


He planned "showtime" well before the hearing. Now maybe he wouldn't have done that if Kim didn't show up. Which is why none of this adds up for me.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

DevdogAZ said:


> Saul didn't deserve life in prison and should have come out on top?!?! Were we watching the same show?


“On Top” would have been a 7 year sentence. 
And should Kim have gotten off so easy?


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## steveco3 (5 mo ago)

Anubys said:


> I think it makes perfect sense. She loved him enough at one point to marry him. He's clearly a decent person. So while they were in the process of separating/divorcing, she would still have a lot of affection for him as well as a ton of respect. Once Howard died, the reasons for the separation and estrangement become almost irrelevant and all the person would feel is the loss.


OK, thanks. That makes sense to me. I'd like to think that my ex-wife would have similar feelings if I was thought to have committed suicide while we were going through our divorce. We're still friendly to this day so I'm sure your right. Another thought is whether her and Howard had kids together or not which would bring even greater grief if they did. I think back to the memorial service when she's not buying any of what Jimmy is telling her and then Kim steps in to back him up. In fact, I just watched the whole scene again and I had forgotten that it ends with Kim giving Jimmy/Saul his final kiss.


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## ThePhoenix (Feb 13, 2008)

steveco3 said:


> Hi, I'm new to these forums and I don't know if this is the right place to talk about it but it bothered me that Howard Hamlin's wife who earlier this season wanted nothing to do with him and was very estranged suddenly becomes the good, caring wife after his murder. What are your thoughts on this?


I’ll say that bothered me too.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

gift link:

Meet the ‘Better Call Saul’ Staffers Who Kept Its Story Straight (nytimes)

Ariel Levine and Kathleen Williams-Foshee, members of the show’s “brain trust,” tracked every minor character trait and historical reference


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Adam Savage browses the props for auction






Note that Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul have an actual archivist that holds onto props and such in case they're needed for future uses. So what you see in the auction are often duplicate props as one would've been sent to the archives. 

Apparently they had to draw on the props saved from Breaking Bad several times. So if they've been keeping props for future use, it wouldn't surprise me they had people dedicated to maintain the continuity.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Funny, how all this arguing and discussion and worry and disagreement completely disappears if the damn series had just ended about 4 episodes ago like it should have. When it went B&W it went off the rails.


You couldn't get it more wrong.


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## fusionh3_5928 (7 mo ago)

Anubys said:


> I think it makes perfect sense. She loved him enough at one point to marry him. He's clearly a decent person. So while they were in the process of separating/divorcing, she would still have a lot of affection for him as well as a ton of respect. Once Howard died, the reasons for the separation and estrangement become almost irrelevant and all the person would feel is the loss.


I'm still dealing with the contradictions in life. Particularly "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" but "Familiarity breeds contempt".


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> You couldn't get it more wrong.


You, believe it or not, can have an opinion different from mine about a show. But it also doesn't mean I can't have and express an opinion different from yours.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dswallow said:


> You, believe it or not, can have an opinion different from mine about a show. But it also doesn't mean I can't have and express an opinion different from yours.


You must be new here. Welcome to the Internet!


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## jtonra (Oct 19, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You must be new here. Welcome to the Internet!


It was gaunt!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Funny, how all this arguing and discussion and worry and disagreement completely disappears if the damn series had just ended about 4 episodes ago like it should have. When it went B&W it went off the rails.


I'm just curious about this position. Were you not expecting some B&W story at the end of the series? The whole show started with a B&W scene showing us that Saul (now Gene) had ended up as a manager at a Cinnabon in Omaha. Each season we got another glimpse into Gene's life, and the story slowly ratcheted up. Prior to S6, the last time we saw Gene, he had called the vacuum shop to get extracted because the cab driver knew who he was. But then at the end of the call, he changed his mind and said he'd figure it out himself. 

Then S6 started and it didn't start with a B&W Gene scene. So I think we all knew that we'd likely get some extended Gene time at the end of the season, since that's ultimately what everyone wanted to find out (what happened to Jimmy/Saul/Gene after BB).

So I'm just curious about your idea that it should have ended after the episode where it flashed forward into the BB timeline. Are you really saying they should have just left us hanging on the Gene story and never showed us how that got resolved? Or are you just upset that it was in black and white? I just don't understand how someone could watch 59 episodes of this show and then not want to see the resolution of the story that it's been building up to the whole time.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Since I share @dswallow 's opinion, I will tell you why I agree with him (his reasoning will be different, of course).

I didn't think the last 4 episodes added anything interesting. The little B&W moments we saw of Jimmy's life after he ran were perfectly fine and good. The entire "breaking bad" at the mall was fun but unnecessary. The redemption arc didn't need any of that and could've been told in 1 episode instead of 4. 

He gets discovered by the cab driver and all we really needed was the last episode.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Since I share @dswallow 's opinion, I will tell you why I agree with him (his reasoning will be different, of course).
> 
> I didn't think the last 4 episodes added anything interesting. The little B&W moments we saw of Jimmy's life after he ran were perfectly fine and good. The entire "breaking bad" at the mall was fun but unnecessary. The redemption arc didn't need any of that and could've been told in 1 episode instead of 4.
> 
> He gets discovered by the cab driver and all we really needed was the last episode.


OK, I get it if you are saying you don't like the way they resolved the Gene storyline. But Doug seems to be saying he would have preferred the show to end after S06E09 and not have any Gene resolution at all. That makes no sense to me. And ending the series on a short flash-forward of Jimmy now turned into full-blown Saul being a misogynistic jackass would have been a horrible end to this series.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> OK, I get it if you are saying you don't like the way they resolved the Gene storyline. But Doug seems to be saying he would have preferred the show to end after S06E09 and not have any Gene resolution at all. That makes no sense to me. And ending the series on a short flash-forward of Jimmy now turned into full-blown Saul being a misogynistic jackass would have been a horrible end to this series.


well...yes and no...

yes, I don't like how they resolved it. I think going from 7 easy years to 86 hard years was stupid and - despite their best efforts to justify it - completely not-believable.

But what I'm saying is that - the unrealistic ending notwithstanding - they didn't need 4 episodes to do it. The first 3 of the 4 were completely superfluous. We didn't need to see more bad things done by Saul; he had done enough bad things. Back when I thought they had a purpose (a setup for a different ending), they were ok. But with the benefit of hindsight, they were just fill-ins to get to 13 episodes instead of 10.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Anubys said:


> yes, I don't like how they resolved it. I think going from 7 easy years to 86 hard years was stupid and - despite their best efforts to justify it - completely not-believable.


Thank you! I thought I was the only one on this train. Glad to see I'm not alone.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> well...yes and no...
> 
> yes, I don't like how they resolved it. I think going from 7 easy years to 86 hard years was stupid and - despite their best efforts to justify it - completely not-believable.
> 
> But what I'm saying is that - the unrealistic ending notwithstanding - they didn't need 4 episodes to do it. The first 3 of the 4 were completely superfluous. We didn't need to see more bad things done by Saul; he had done enough bad things. Back when I thought they had a purpose (a setup for a different ending), they were ok. But with the benefit of hindsight, they were just fill-ins to get to 13 episodes instead of 10.


I suspect that they always planned to have several episodes of black and white to resolve the Gene storyline, so the fact that they had extra episodes this season likely means we just got more of the pre-BB storyline.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Anubys said:


> well...yes and no...
> 
> yes, I don't like how they resolved it. I think going from 7 easy years to 86 hard years was stupid and - despite their best efforts to justify it - *completely not-believable.*...


It's a teevee show....FICTION...not reality or history or biography.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> It's a teevee show....FICTION...not reality or history or biography.


So if Jimmy morphed into a unicorn and flew away, that would be ok?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> It's a teevee show....FICTION...not reality or history or biography.


Please tell me you're joking.



Hank said:


> So if Jimmy morphed into a unicorn and flew away, that would be ok?


LOL...exactly.


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## Tony_T (Nov 2, 2017)

Bierboy said:


> It's a teevee show....FICTION...not reality or history or biography.


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## Craigbob (Dec 2, 2006)

I find it ironic that he was Saul's 1st drug and identity theft victim a few episodes ago.

Devin Ratray, 'Home Alone' actor, under investigation for alleged rape


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Craigbob said:


> I find it ironic that he was Saul's 1st drug and identity theft victim a few episodes ago.
> 
> Devin Ratray, 'Home Alone' actor, under investigation for alleged rape


My first thought was wow, he'd Better Call Saul.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I had never heard of Duke's mayonnaise before, but now I'm noticing it in the grocery store whereas I never did before.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

If you're fron the southeast Duke's is the only brand you'll buy.
I buy it but I'm not sure why. Cooks Illustrated likes it


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## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

series5orpremier said:


> I had never heard of Duke's mayonnaise before, but now I'm noticing it in the grocery store whereas I never did before.


I also had never hear of Duke's and actually did a search to see if it was real or made up for the show. Around me It's Hellmann's, Kraft (real mayo) and Miracle Whip (kraft's fake mayo)...plus store brands.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I hadn't heard of Duke's until a couple years ago when they started sponsoring a college football bowl game. And then that's when I started hearing that for most people in the South, there's only Duke's and anything else is an abomination.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Bruce24 said:


> I also had never hear of Duke's and actually did a search to see if it was real or made up for the show. Around me It's Hellmann's, Kraft (real mayo) and Miracle Whip (kraft's fake mayo)...plus store brands.


Miracle Whip is not fake mayo, it is a different product all together.


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## Bruce24 (Jan 8, 2003)

brianp6621 said:


> Miracle Whip is not fake mayo, it is a different product all together.


Yet it was created as a less expensive alternative to mayonnaise during the depression.


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Bruce24 said:


> Yet it was created as a less expensive alternative to mayonnaise during the depression.


Yes an alternative to mayo, not a cheaper/fake mayo.


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## MScottC (Sep 11, 2004)

A repulsive (IMHO) alternative to mayo.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

A cheaper shelf-stable attempt at a mayo-like white sauce. Kraft needed something that didn't use eggs which was the main reason mayo was expensive and perishable - they wanted an alternate that would last longer on the shelf and use way less leggs. 

Never heard of Dukes either, then it seems everyone is using it. Heck, I was watching the latest Alton Brown QQ episode and they said they were out of Dukes. I was half wondering if anyone was going to suggest Miracle Whip because, you know...


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## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

When I say alternative, and I am now using that term loosely, I as I original said, think of it as a different product altogether that SOME people may use in place of or in similar use cases as mayo. But for me they have 2 distinctly different purposes/uses and I do not interchange them


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Kewpie is where its at


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## steveco3 (5 mo ago)

Let me get this straight. There are some out there that wanted to end the show with Gene living out the rest of his life as a Cinnabon manager in Omaha, Nebraska?


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