# Do you buy the extended warranty?



## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

I have the Roamio and have had it for a couple of weeks now.

Twice it has had glitches and I honestly don't know if it is the machine or the cable coming in, but it makes me nervous.

We typically don't buy extended warranties on these sorts of things, but I am wondering if I should.

Dawn


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

It's not worth it. You'd be better off buying an uninterrupted power supply. Usually what fails is the hard drive, and that is an easy fix. And if your Roamio has lifetime service on it and no warranty, TiVo is generally pretty lenient on letting you buy a replacement unit at a considerable discount.


----------



## pfiagra (Oct 13, 2014)

DawnW said:


> I have the Roamio and have had it for a couple of weeks now.
> 
> Twice it has glitches and I honestly don't know if it is the machine or the cable coming in, but it makes me nervous.
> 
> ...


I have purchased the warranty, both for my Premiere three years ago and the Roamio I bought last month.

Also, since the warranty is also transferable, I was able to state that my Premiere (with lifetime, of course) still had six weeks left of the warranty, which added to its value when I sold it.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

I did for one of my roamios. The main one and I just bought a premier xl4 that has a one year warranty left and that was a prime factor I bought it. Well and it cane with lifetime.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I did for our two Roamio Pros. For $40/ea I was able to insure boxes that cost $1,100 each. Now I know that if they were to break I could probably fix them myself, or pay TiVo their out of warranty repair fee, for less then they cost to buy but it's still more then the warranty so it seemed worth it to me.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Never, for any product, ever. Essentially pure profit for the seller. Very few electronics fail, self-insuring is the winner here.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It's not worth it.* You'd be better off buying an uninterrupted power supply.* Usually what fails is the hard drive, and that is an easy fix. And if your Roamio has lifetime service on it and no warranty, TiVo is generally pretty lenient on letting you buy a replacement unit at a considerable discount.


It's not an either/or proposition. I would highly recommend using a UPS for your DVR--both to protect the electronics from power surges and to ensure uninterrupted operation so that you don't lose recordings due to power outages.



jrtroo said:


> Never, for any product, ever. Essentially pure profit for the seller. Very few electronics fail, self-insuring is the winner here.


This is far too dogmatic a statement. While it is unquestionably true that extended warranties are a very profitable item for most retailers and that self-insuring is usually more cost-effective for the buyer of most products, there are times when an extended warranty is a sensible option. Given the high cost of the PLS which is tied to the TiVo, this is one instance where you could argue that a $40 3-year EW (and the peace of mind it offers) should be given consideration.

As a rule, I never bite on EW's but, like Dan, I did get one for my Premiere Elite because $40 over 3 years seemed like a reasonable investment to protect my $809 purchase.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

chiguy50 said:


> It's not an either/or proposition. I would highly recommend using a UPS for your DVR--both to protect the electronics from power surges and to ensure uninterrupted operation so that you don't lose recordings due to power outages.
> 
> This is far too dogmatic a statement. While it is unquestionably true that extended warranties are a very profitable item for most retailers and that self-insuring is usually more cost-effective for the buyer of most products, there are times when an extended warranty is a sensible option. Given the high cost of the PLS which is tied to the TiVo, this is one instance where you could argue that a $40 3-year EW (and the peace of mind it offers) should be given consideration.
> 
> As a rule, I never bite on EW's but, like Dan, I did get one for my Premiere Elite because $40 over 3 years seemed like a reasonable investment to protect my $809 purchase.


Agreed I usually do not buy ew for anything but as was stated it was worth it in this case.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> This is far too dogmatic a statement. While it is unquestionably true that extended warranties are a very profitable item for most retailers and that self-insuring is usually more cost-effective for the buyer of most products, there are times when an extended warranty is a sensible option. Given the high cost of the PLS which is tied to the TiVo, this is one instance where you could argue that a $40 3-year EW (and the peace of mind it offers) should be given consideration.


A company is never going to sell a warranty that they will lose money on. If you can afford to self-insure, then you should do so. The only time you should buy a warranty is if you could not afford to replace whatever it is you are insuring.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

The fees tivo typically offers to transfer such service is around $150, not the thousands often feared.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

jrtroo said:


> The fees tivo typically offers to transfer such service is around $150, not the thousands often feared.


Exactly. So you're paying $40 today for a small chance of saving $150 at some unspecified point in the future. The failure rate of TiVos would have to be at least 25% before the math would start to make any sense, and the failure rate is nowhere near that high.


----------



## FitzAusTex (May 7, 2014)

$25 at best buy for 4 years coverage was an awesome value to me. I'd probably be able to afford to replace out of pocket, but perhaps not. 4 years is a long time and perhaps I won't have the funds to replace in the future. I'm very careful with my stuff, but stuff happens. Spent $28 to cover the tablet that I'm typing this reply on that died in December. Repaired and back to me in 9 days, which was faster than trying to locate a new Nexus 7, since it's been discontinued. Just saying...


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> As a rule, I never bite on EW's but, like Dan, I did get one for my Premiere Elite because $40 over 3 years seemed like a reasonable investment to protect my $809 purchase.


Except its $40 for three years protection against the $99 or $149 repair fee only. And its one time use. Coverage ends on first use not 3 yrs.

The warranty does not offer any additional protection against the cost of the subscription. That is transferred to the repaired unit no matter if its covered by the extended warranty or by you.

I have owned and used Tivos since 2000 (Sony Series One). During that 15 year span I have had to send in ONE tivo for repair. And even though it was well past the 90 days, tivo exchanged it for no charge and transferred my lifetime sub. (this was a Roamio basic with a failed tuner).


----------



## heifer624 (Jul 12, 2009)

I didn't buy the warranty since my Roamio Plus came with the New Continual Care warranty.

________________________
C&P

TiVos Continual Care warranty covers your TiVo Roamio for the uninterrupted duration of your monthly or annual TiVo service subscription. With Continual Care protection, well send you a replacement at no charge if your TiVo Roamio box needs repair within the first 90 days from your date of purchase.* After 90 days, youll receive a replacement DVR for just $49.00.** No one else in the industry offers protection like this.


----------



## DawnW (Nov 28, 2008)

heifer624 said:


> I didn't buy the warranty since my Roamio Plus came with the New Continual Care warranty.
> 
> ________________________
> C&P
> ...


Sounds like I wouldn't be covered with a lifetime.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

DawnW said:


> Sounds like I wouldn't be covered with a lifetime.


With lifetime, you get the standard warranty: 90 days parts and labor, 1 year parts. Most major credit cards will double manufacturer's warranties on consumer electronics if you use the card to make the purchase.


----------



## Bytez (Sep 11, 2004)

I bought a 3 year warranty for my Plus.


----------



## ncted (May 13, 2007)

As a rule, I do not buy extended warranties, and I did not on my Roamio or Mini, but I did on my 64 inch plasma because I know it can be difficult to get post-warranty repairs done from past experience. It has already paid for itself. When the wi-fi card went at 13 months in, causing the TV to be unusable, having the $240 warranty covered the $400 on-site repair. YMMV of course.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Discussions like this used to make me very angry. I saw innumerate people talking others for whom math was hard into wasting their money by taking the wrong end of a sucker's bet.

But I have had an epiphany!

I now understand that these folks are selflessly contributing to the financial health of TiVo, which we all know is precarious at times! So I applaud their generosity; and encourage you all to do the same! In the long run you will be poorer in financial terms but you will have done service to the rest of us by keeping TiVo fiscally sound!


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> Discussions like this used to make me very angry. I saw innumerate people talking others for whom math was hard into wasting their money by taking the wrong end of a sucker's bet.
> 
> But I have had an epiphany!
> 
> I now understand that these folks are selflessly contributing to the financial health of TiVo, which we all know is precarious at times! So I applaud their generosity; and encourage you all to do the same! In the long run you will be poorer in financial terms but you will have done service to the rest of us by keeping TiVo fiscally sound!


I honestly don't think it's that bad of a deal. TiVo charges like $150-$200 for out of warranty repair. Even if it's just a HDD that dies it would cost you about $120 to replace it yourself. So $40 for 3 years isn't that bad if you actually end up using it. Plus if you sell the TiVo before the warranty expires it actually increases the resale value.

If you never end up using it then it's a waste, but it's relatively cheap compared to the price of the unit so seems like cheap insurance to me.

That being said I'd only buy it if I were buying a Roamio Plus or Pro with lifetime. The Basic is cheap and if you really needed to you could buy an OTA for $50 and use it for parts to repair your Basic. The Mini has no moving parts and is cheap enough that the warranty doesn't make sense at all.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Dan203 said:


> I honestly don't think it's that bad of a deal. TiVo charges like $150-$200 for out of warranty repair. Even if it's just a HDD that dies it would cost you about $120 to replace it yourself. So $40 for 3 years isn't that bad if you actually end up using it. Plus if you sell the TiVo before the warranty expires it actually increases the resale value.
> 
> If you never end up using it then it's a waste, but it's relatively cheap compared to the price of the unit so seems like cheap insurance to me.
> 
> That being said I'd only buy it if I were buying a Roamio Plus or Pro with lifetime. The Basic is cheap and if you really needed to you could buy an OTA for $50 and use it for parts to repair your Basic. The Mini has no moving parts and is cheap enough that the warranty doesn't make sense at all.


I fully concur with the above.

In the final analysis, whether to buy an EW for a PLS'ed TiVo is a subjective decision since no one can predict the future (anyone can afford to self-insure if you know that your exposure to risk is minimal), nor can one assign a value to the "peace of mind" factor (the warranty guarantees that your defective product will be repaired/replaced by TiVo under the terms of the EW).

EW's, like almost all insurance products, are designed to both (1) make a profit for the seller and (2) save the insured money if/when he suffers a covered loss. These conflicting objectives are achieved by spreading the risk over a pool of policyholders; those that never file a claim are in essence subsidizing the coverage for those who suffer catastrophic losses. But you will never know which camp you fall into until the end of the policy period.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> I honestly don't think it's that bad of a deal. TiVo charges like $150-$200 for out of warranty repair. Even if it's just a HDD that dies it would cost you about $120 to replace it yourself. So $40 for 3 years isn't that bad if you actually end up using it. Plus if you sell the TiVo before the warranty expires it actually increases the resale value.
> 
> If you never end up using it then it's a waste, but it's relatively cheap compared to the price of the unit so seems like cheap insurance to me.
> 
> That being said I'd only buy it if I were buying a Roamio Plus or Pro with lifetime. The Basic is cheap and if you really needed to you could buy an OTA for $50 and use it for parts to repair your Basic. The Mini has no moving parts and is cheap enough that the warranty doesn't make sense at all.


If I told you that if you loan me $40 today, there is a 1% chance that I would return sometime in the next 3 years to pay you back $150, would you take that deal? Because that is essentially the deal you are taking. It's a bad deal.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

tarheelblue32 said:


> If I told you that if you loan me $40 today, there is a 1% chance that I would return sometime in the next 3 years to pay you back $150, would you take that deal? Because that is essentially the deal you are taking. It's a bad deal.


$40 means almost nothing to me. I have more then that in pennies in the jar next to my bed. To me it's a convenience fee. I pay $40 and for the next 3 years if anything goes wrong with my TiVo I call them up, they send me a new one, I swap it out and I'm up and running again. If I never use it then oh well, I'll never miss the money anyway.

I suspect that most people buying an $1,100 TiVo are in a similar position as to how $40 will really effect their lives.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> $40 means almost nothing to me. I have more then that in pennies in the jar next to my bed. To me it's a convenience fee. I pay $40 and for the next 3 years if anything goes wrong with my TiVo I call them up, they send me a new one, I swap it out and I'm up and running again. If I never use it then oh well, I'll never miss the money anyway.
> 
> I suspect that most people buying an $1,100 TiVo are in a similar position as to how $40 will really effect their lives.


If $40 is almost nothing to you, then I suspect $150 is almost nothing to you as well.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

tarheelblue32 said:


> If $40 is almost nothing to you, then I suspect $150 is almost nothing to you as well.


Yes, but $40 is less.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> Yes, but $40 is less.


LOL okay, well I think I'm just going to borrow ej42137's philosophy and say that if you want to give TiVo more of your money to help keep them afloat, that's okay in my book.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Yep. They really need to teach more basic finance in school. If someone wants to voluntarily subsidize me, let them.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

Everyone that thinks they are experts in money kill me. Why don't you self insure everything then? Some people can't pay out of pocket and or know how to fix simple things on electronics. 40 is better then 100's. Why do you pay car insurance that's the biggest waste of money if you want to get down to it? Self insure! But you can't because you don't have 100,000 of thousands to sit in an escrow. Again most ew are not a good deal to most but some peace and mind is priceless. There are things I can do perfectly well myself yet I pay others to do it why because it's not worth my time and easier to pay others. That's a waste of money yet I and many others do it. Let's agree to say it's worth it to some. I grew up in NJ and paid tolls. I could have easily avoided them but it's easier and less time to use toll roads so I wasted money and used them. We all do crap like that so please don't act like you don't waste money either on a ew or something else!


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

joewom said:


> Everyone that thinks they are experts in money kill me. Why don't you self insure everything then? Some people can't pay out of pocket and or know how to fix simple things on electronics. 40 is better then 100's. Why do you pay car insurance that's the biggest waste of money if you want to get down to it? Self insure!


Actually, from a purely financial standpoint, anytime you can afford to self-insure, you should. For car insurance, the only thing I have on that is liability coverage, which states require you have to register your vehicle. Having to pay for a replacement car would certainly ruin my day, but I can afford to absorb that loss if necessary. And the money I have saved over the years in not paying for car insurance I didn't need would more than pay for a replacement vehicle at this point.

There are also tax benefits to self-insuring. If you wreck your car and it was your fault and you don't have insurance, you get to deduct the fair market value on your taxes as a casualty loss. If you don't buy the insurance your TiVo, I see no reason why you couldn't deduct the value of your TiVo on your taxes too, assuming you itemize.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Actually, from a purely financial standpoint, anytime you can afford to self-insure, you should. For car insurance, the only thing I have on that is liability coverage, which states require you have to register your vehicle. Having to pay for a replacement car would certainly ruin my day, but I can afford to absorb that loss if necessary. And the money I have saved over the years in not paying for car insurance I didn't need would more than pay for a replacement vehicle at this point.
> 
> There are also tax benefits to self-insuring. If you wreck your car and it was your fault and you don't have insurance, you get to deduct the fair market value on your taxes as a casualty loss. If you don't buy the insurance your TiVo, I see no reason why you couldn't deduct the value of your TiVo on your taxes too, assuming you itemize.


I get it just don't like the one size fits all. Most states allow you to self insure liability also. Just have to put at least the state min in a secured account. If you can it makes sense you earn interest and don't have to pay insurance if you don't wreck. But as I said 40 to allot is better then 100's they may have to pay latter they might not have latter.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

joewom said:


> I get it just don't like the one size fits all. Most states allow you to self insure liability also. Just have to put at least the state min in a secured account. If you can it makes sense you earn interest and don't have to pay insurance if you don't wreck. But as I said 40 to allot is better then 100's they may have to pay latter they might not have latter.


As I said, I'm not against all insurance. Insurance is very important if you aren't able to absorb potential financial losses. This is why I do have things like health insurance and liability insurance. If I get hit by a bus and have $500,000 in medical bills or if I kill someone with my car and get sued for $3Million, I can't really afford to take those kinds of losses.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

tarheelblue32 said:


> As I said, I'm not against all insurance. Insurance is very important if you aren't able to absorb potential financial losses. This is why I do have things like health insurance and liability insurance. If I get hit by a bus and have $500,000 in medical bills or if I kill someone with my car and get sued for $3Million, I can't really afford to take those kinds of losses.


Some can't afford 100 or 200 so they pay 40 that they can afford even if they never use it. Same as you just smaller scale as everyone finances are different.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

The profit ratios are much much better for small electronics insurance than for medical. It's not even close, $40 to insure $150 is years away than $400 to cover $500k. Folks are free to make sub-optimal use of their funds. Go right ahead and subsidize my tivo experience. Thanks!


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

joewom said:


> Some can't afford 100 or 200 so they pay 40 that they can afford even if they never use it. Same as you just smaller scale as everyone finances are different.


If someone truly can't afford to absorb a $200 loss, then by all means they should buy the $40 insurance. But I have to believe that the vast majority of TiVo users could absorb a $200 loss without bankrupting themselves.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> I honestly don't think it's that bad of a deal. TiVo charges like $150-$200 for out of warranty repair. Even if it's just a HDD that dies it would cost you about $120 to replace it yourself. So $40 for 3 years isn't that bad if you actually end up using it. Plus if you sell the TiVo before the warranty expires it actually increases the resale value.
> 
> If you never end up using it then it's a waste, but it's relatively cheap compared to the price of the unit so seems like cheap insurance to me.
> 
> That being said I'd only buy it if I were buying a Roamio Plus or Pro with lifetime. The Basic is cheap and if you really needed to you could buy an OTA for $50 and use it for parts to repair your Basic. The Mini has no moving parts and is cheap enough that the warranty doesn't make sense at all.


See, this is exactly what I meant by those who think "math is hard". It's the same delusion that causes people to play the lottery. "I spent a dollar and I get millions!"

But thanks again for supporting TiVo!


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> See, this is exactly what I meant by those who think "math is hard". It's the same delusion that causes people to play the lottery. "I spent a dollar and I get millions!"
> 
> But thanks again for supporting TiVo!


I don't think "math is hard". 

I'm buying insurance. Is it over priced insurance? Perhaps. But it's insurance none the less. The odds of an HDD failure on a device that runs 24/7 for 3 years is actually pretty high, so there is a pretty good chance I'll need it. Plus the out of warranty repair price is not actually published anywhere. It migh be $150 or it mig be $500, we only know what people have been charged in the past but they could raise the price at any time and we'd have no idea.

I understand you don't like extended warranties, and that's fine, but treating me like I'm some moron who doesn't understand math is uncalled for. This is not like playing the lottery where your odds of winning are less then your odds of getting eaten by a shark. We're talking about insuring a device, for a relatively small amount of money, which is using a mechanical HDD that has a pretty high rate of failure.

Not to mention having one increases the resale value should you sell it while the warranty is still in effect.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

tarheelblue32 said:


> If someone truly can't afford to absorb a $200 loss, then by all means they should buy the $40 insurance. But I have to believe that the vast majority of TiVo users could absorb a $200 loss without bankrupting themselves.


Firstly, let me reiterate that I share your view that EW's are generally a waste of money for the consumer who can afford to self-insure. However, your analysis is not accurate when you assess the property risk at $200. The PLS'ed Roamio Pro, e.g., represents an outlay of around $1000. If it becomes nonfunctional there is no guarantee short of the warranty coverage that TiVo will provide an accommodation to the purchaser; just because it has been done in the past on a case-by-case basis does not mean that you will be given the same replacement deal should you need it. By purchasing an EW you are "insuring" the full amount that you paid for the item plus service. Then, as with any insurance, there is the intangible peace of mind factor that I previously mentioned.

Whether to spring for the EW on a PLS'ed TiVo is a personal, subjective decision. No one can offer a mathematical rationale for why it is not a good choice in this instance given the unknowns and intangibles.

Even Consumer Reports, which agrees with you and me that EW's are generally not worth the price, recognizes that there are exceptions.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

Giving financial advice is like giving relationship advice. Its easier said then done. And no one persons situation is the same. I personally don't like EW. I did buy one for my plus that has PSL. Why because I take life experience. I have had cable DVR's and the rate of failure is crazy. I am hoping TIVO makes a better product then companies do for cable companies but still anything with electronics has a chance of going. I did not get any for the mini or the basic as the cost does not warrant it. Do i buy phone coverage for me and my wife. No but I do my kids lines. I am surprised they still offer me insurance on phones anymore because they have given me more in phones then I have ever paid them. Just like my home warranty. I got it free for the first year. I have old AC units and two of them. They paid out over 3000 the first year. I have kept them and I don't know why they renew as they have replaced and paid more stuff then I have paid them to include the service fee. If it was costing me I would cancel. Because I like Dan can do math. It benefits me in some way which is way people do things. It may not benefit you either monitory or otherwise so don't do it.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> I don't think "math is hard".
> 
> I'm buying insurance. Is it over priced insurance? Perhaps. But it's insurance none the less. The odds of an HDD failure on a device that runs 24/7 for 3 years is actually pretty high, so there is a pretty good chance I'll need it. Plus the out of warranty repair price is not actually published anywhere. It migh be $150 or it mig be $500, we only know what people have been charged in the past but they could raise the price at any time and we'd have no idea.
> 
> ...


Exactly! It's insurance! And it makes no sense to buy insurance for a small calamity. The "house" has calculated that in the long run it will make money on the transaction; and they do make money, lots of it. Consumer electronics in general and TiVos in particular either fail right away or they work for years.

I've owned 13 TiVos so far, starting with Series 2s up to Roamios today. Some of them have died, but not one died before an extended warranty would have expired, had I been so foolish as to waste my money thusly. So if I'm typical, one of these might have died and spending $40 x 13 = $520 would have saved me $150 if I had a little less lucky than turned out to be the case.

But you don't have to take my word for it; take the evidence of the guy that's trying to sell you the extended warranty. He's making money now and he's intending to make money in the future. Do you think you're a special case?

Insurance is important to protect one from calamity. Medical bills that would wipe you out, the loss of your house that you couldn't replace, that kind of thing. But for everyday problems it makes no sense.

Insurance makes sense when:

1) The loss would wipe out out, like major medical and home owner's.

2) Insurance is required to get price breaks or access to services. Regular medical is an example. Have you ever looked at what they want to charge for an MRI if you're not an insurance company?

3) It's required by law, like auto liability insurance.

4) As a gift. When you give someone an expensive toy, an extended warranty, although not cost effective, increases the value of the gift to the receiver. Or when selling something, including an extended warranty is an added inducement to the purchase.

But if you can afford to take the hit, you should never buy insurance against that hit. And for a luxury item like a TiVo, you can always do without it. If things are so tight you couldn't replace it you probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place.

=====

But enough of my silly rant. Have I told you lately how much I like VideoReDo? I mean, that program is the cat's pajamas! Thank you so much for it and keep up the good work!


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

5) When you know there will be a loss but the insurance company does not. If you know you are going to die soon, but the insurance company does not, then buying term life insurance would be a fantastic idea.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> 5) When you know there will be a loss but the insurance company does not. If you know you are going to die soon, but the insurance company does not, then buying term life insurance would be a fantastic idea.


Well, I would normally not include that one on moral grounds. Usually to take out an insurance policy under those conditions requires one to commit a fraud against the insurance company. The only exception to this I am aware of is a viatical, and even there the original policy would have presumably been undertaken in good faith.

If you're not going to play fair you might as well rob banks or become a stockbroker.


----------



## iconoclast (Oct 27, 2014)

jrtroo said:


> Never, for any product, ever. Essentially pure profit for the seller. Very few electronics fail, self-insuring is the winner here.


I agree. BTW, many VISA cards double the warranty up to an addition 1 year at N/C. So given the odds, it is a bad investment. This is true even if you know someone who bought an EW & had a product fail after reg warr expired & used EW to pay for an expensive repair & in their isolated case it was "worth it." There are many times that number of people with & w/o EW who did NOT have a product failure during term of what would have been an EW. Consider both the odds & the stakes.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

iconoclast said:


> I agree. BTW, many VISA cards double the warranty up to an addition 1 year at N/C. So given the odds, it is a bad investment. This is true even if you know someone who bought an EW & had a product fail after reg warranty expired & used EW to pay for an expensive repair & in their isolated case it was "worth it." There are many times that number of people with & w/o EW who did NOT have a product failure during term of what would have been an EW. Consider both the odds & the stakes.


So everyone is saying $40 for a $399 roamio with PSL for $499.00 for a total $898.00 is bad? I don't think so. Its less then 1% of the cost. Actually right around .5%. And everything I read so far you have almost certain chance of transferring a lifetime on a tivo that had to be replaced with a EW.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Um, my case in point. You will want to double check you math, you are off by a factor of 10.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

jrtroo said:


> Um, my case in point. You will want to double check you math, you are off by a factor of 10.


Math is not my strong point but 10% of $900 is $90. 5% is $45. So yes I was off its a few % but not a factor of 10. I had this talk with someone and they said EW are the worst finical move. I asked you have credit card balances? Answer was yes. I said at 0% interest and answer was no. I said you pay them off every month. Again no. I said that sir is the biggest financial mistake. Again are they generally good no. Are they good for some that can afford to waste $40 and not worry to have to waste $900 in the future. Possibly. Every circumstance is different. But I guarantee most everyone that thinks they are so smart with fiances and gives all this advice that you must do this don't do it themselves. Or have one thing that is not smart.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

5 is ten times greater than .5. A factor of ten.

No cc balances. Nope. Never answered that question in this thread. You are confusing me with someone else.

You are welcome to spend your money on what you want. Go right ahead, I never said anyone here was wrong, again you are confusing me with someone else. I'm saying the math shows its not a good deal, certainly not one I would take.

But, many pay monthly and I pay for lifetime. Again, same issue in that lifetime is a much better deal, but folks are free to spend their capital in a non-optimal fashion.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

jrtroo said:


> 5 is ten times greater than .5. A factor of ten.
> 
> No cc balances. Nope. Never answered that question in this thread. You are confusing me with someone else.
> 
> ...


Didn't say you. Said I talked to someone it was in person. And like I said some people can pay big amounts some can't. Why I am sure some people don't get lifetime. 14.99 is more doable for most then 499 or 399. Is it non optimal yes is it all some can do yes.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> Well, I would normally not include that one on moral grounds. Usually to take out an insurance policy under those conditions requires one to commit a fraud against the insurance company. The only exception to this I am aware of is a viatical, and even there the original policy would have presumably been undertaken in good faith.
> 
> If you're not going to play fair you might as well rob banks or become a stockbroker.


It's not necessarily going to be fraudulent to have better information than the insurance company. In the life insurance example, if you know you are suicidal, but the insurance company does not, then extra life insurance could be a good bet. That isn't fraud, as suicide is a risk you can insure against like any other, you just happen to know that you are at higher risk than the average person and the insurance company does not.

And now that we have guaranteed issue health insurance, you can potentially do a similar thing there. If the doctor tells you that you have a health condition that will require expensive treatment, you could potentially hold off on treatment until the next open enrollment rolls around and buy the "platinum" health insurance policy on the government exchange.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It's not necessarily going to be fraudulent to have better information than the insurance company. In the life insurance example, if you know you are suicidal, but the insurance company does not, then extra life insurance could be a good bet. That isn't fraud, as suicide is a risk you can insure against like any other, you just happen to know that you are at higher risk than the average person and the insurance company does not.
> 
> And now that we have guaranteed issue health insurance, you can potentially do a similar thing there. If the doctor tells you that you have a health condition that will require expensive treatment, you could potentially hold off on treatment until the next open enrollment rolls around and buy the "platinum" health insurance policy on the government exchange.


Buying life insurance when you're planning to commit suicide is absolutely an example of fraud.

I would say your medical situation would be covered by both #2 and #3 above.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> Buying life insurance when you're planning to commit suicide is absolutely an example of fraud.


No it isn't, unless you intentionally try to hide the fact that it was a suicide by making it appear to be an accidental death. Suicide is a risk you can insure against, like any other, and insurance companies take the risk of suicide into account when selling life insurance policies. That's why life insurance policies have a waiting period before they will pay off in the event of a suicide.


----------



## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

ej42137 said:


> Buying life insurance when you're planning to commit suicide is absolutely an example of fraud.


Besides being fraudulent, suicide would also be excluded (prevent any payoff) by any life insurance policy I've ever heard of. The purpose of insurance is to protect against events that are unlikely but unpredictable. How could it work otherwise? Suicide, arson, and other intentional acts would allow dishonest people to cheat the system and essentially steal from the other insurance customers who play by the rules. Many people don't understand insurance.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

ej42137 said:


> I've owned 13 TiVos so far, starting with Series 2s up to Roamios today. Some of them have died, but not one died before an extended warranty would have expired, had I been so foolish as to waste my money thusly. So if I'm typical, one of these might have died and spending $40 x 13 = $520 would have saved me $150 if I had a little less lucky than turned out to be the case.


I've owned probably 20-30 TiVos over the years and had several HDD failures and a couple of power supply failures. I'd guess that in my personal experience failure rate is about 10%.

But honestly, as I mentioned above, I mainly got the warranty because the price was basically insignificant to me and it created a convenience factor. Without a warranty if one of the TiVos had died I would have had to trouble shoot it. I most likely would have bought a new HDD at first just to see if that fixed it. But if it turned out to be the power supply I'd either have to buy one from Weaknees and install it myself or pay TiVo for an out of warranty replacement anyway, while now being stuck with an HDD I have to return or use for something else. With the warranty I call them up, they cross ship the replacement, and I'm back up and running in a couple days.

It's kinda like paying a handyman to do work around the house. I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself, but it sure is nice to not worry about it and have someone else do it instead.



ej42137 said:


> But enough of my silly rant. Have I told you lately how much I like VideoReDo? I mean, that program is the cat's pajamas! Thank you so much for it and keep up the good work!


Thank you.


----------



## iconoclast (Oct 27, 2014)

joewom said:


> Math is not my strong point ... I had this talk with someone and they said EW are the worst finical move. I asked you have credit card balances? Answer was yes. ... But I guarantee most everyone that thinks they are so smart with fiances and gives all this advice that you must do this don't do it themselves. Or have one thing that is not smart.


Respectfully, that is irrelevant. A person could advise others (if asked) to exercise, eat right, maintain proper weight, not smoke, not drink excessive alcohol, not use recreational drugs, etc. and be correct... even if they do not practice what they preach.

I think most people know it is not smart to carry a balance & pay high interest on credit cards. However, many people lack the discipline or have unexpected large expenses & end up carrying a balance. The best thing to do would be pay off the credit card ASAP rather than continue to make unnecessary charges & allow the balance to roll over each month paying only the minimum. That is not the way to "get ahead" financially.


----------



## iconoclast (Oct 27, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> It's kinda like paying a handyman to do work around the house. I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself, but it sure is nice to not worry about it and have someone else do it instead.


Not quite. If one is unable or unwilling to do handyman type repairs around the house, the choice s/b who should I pay to do it for me? Not sure if such an insurance program exists, but IMO it would be financially foolish to buy some type of insurance so when/if you get a small plumbing issue, you use insurance to get if fixed at N/C rather than calling a plumber & paying out of pocket. One exception might be when buying a used house to purchase 1 year warranty on major repairs; plumbing, electric, appliances, roof, etc. since you don't know what the previous owners have concealed from you. Some lenders in some states require a certified professional inspect a home b4 they will give you a mortgage. Such inspections are valuable depending on the competence of the inspector.

Back to TiVo & electronics:
"From a purely economic standpoint, it usually doesn't make sense to buy an extended warranty," says Rajiv Sinha, a marketing professor at the W.P. Carey School of Business at Arizona State University."
http://money.usnews.com/money/perso...-should-and-shouldnt-buy-an-extended-warranty

"Extended warranties are all the rage when you purchase electronics and many other popular items. But I am here to reiterate the refrain that they aren't necessary. Consumer Reports says that electronics seldom fail. In fact, TVs only fail at a three percent rate in the first four years of ownership. Why would anyone buy a warranty when you have a 97 percent that your TV will work for numerous years?"
http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/cla...nnecessary-on-electronics/nD3S/#__federated=1

"You might be tempted to buy a service plan--also known as extended warranty--on your next laptop, dishwasher, or a new or used car. But chances are that what you spend will be money down the drain."
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/extended-warranties/buying-guide.htm

Keep in mind, if you pay with a VISA that doubles your warranty (up to extra one year) for free AND you also buy an EW, you cannot have the EW begin after the VISA doubled warranty. So, you are effectively wasting your free extra VISA warranty!

That being said, I hereby offer to the world my own Alien Abduction insurance. For the bargain price of $1 per month, I will pay medical expenses & other Abduction related expenses upon your incontrovertible proof you were abducted by aliens! Isn't having this insurance worth the 'peace of mind' even if the chances of abduction are low.


----------



## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

iconoclast said:


> Not quite. If one is unable or unwilling to do handyman type repairs around the house, the choice s/b who should I pay to do it for me? Not sure if such an insurance program exists, but IMO it would be financially foolish to buy some type of insurance


It does, they're called Home Warranties. Millions of people have them.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

L David Matheny said:


> Besides being fraudulent, suicide would also be excluded (prevent any payoff) by any life insurance policy I've ever heard of. The purpose of insurance is to protect against events that are unlikely but unpredictable. How could it work otherwise? Suicide, arson, and other intentional acts would allow dishonest people to cheat the system and essentially steal from the other insurance customers who play by the rules. Many people don't understand insurance.


It seems that you are the one who doesn't understand insurance, as that is completely wrong. Most life insurance policies will pay off for suicide after an initial 1 to 3 year exclusion period. Suicide is a risk that can be insured against like any other and it is absolutely not fraudulent unless you are trying to hide the fact that it was a suicide in order to avoid the exclusion period.

http://time.com/money/3117698/how-life-insurance-policies-deal-with-suicide/
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/insurance/life-insurance-policy-pay-1.aspx
http://www.insurancequotes.org/life/the-truth-about-suicide-life-insurance/
http://www.hinermangroup.com/blog/insurance/life-insurance-does-too-cover-suicide/


----------



## iconoclast (Oct 27, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> It does, they're called Home Warranties. Millions of people have them.


OK, I didn't realize they existed other than for home sales.

"Home Warranties Not Worth The Paper They're Written On"

"The Chicago Tribune reports that 3 million homeowners bought home warranties last year. Yet at the same time, for six years running, home warranty companies have led a list of the most complained about companies in America out of 500 different categories tracked by AngiesList.com.

This is a profession that shames itself every morning it gets up. The industry as a whole is really more rip-off than out-and-out scam, but there are certainly some scammy players populating it."
http://www.clarkhoward.com/news/cla...ranties-not-worth-paper-theyre-written/nDYMR/

P.T. Barnum was right!


----------



## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It seems that you are the one who doesn't understand insurance, as that is completely wrong. Most life insurance policies will pay off for suicide after an initial 1 to 3 year exclusion period. Suicide is a risk that can be insured against like any other and it is absolutely not fraudulent unless you are trying to hide the fact that it was a suicide in order to avoid the exclusion period.


Interesting. Covering suicide would seem to be inconsistent with the whole concept of insurance, since it is not something that happens to the insured by chance but rather an outcome chosen by the insured. But I guess if you consider that it is a result of the insured being stricken by a mental disorder that causes one to take one's own life, it could make sense to cover it. We're getting pretty far off topic, of course.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

L David Matheny said:


> Interesting. Covering suicide would seem to be inconsistent with the whole concept of insurance, since it is not something that happens to the insured by chance but rather an outcome chosen by the insured. But I guess if you consider that it is a result of the insured being stricken by a mental disorder that causes one to take one's own life, it could make sense to cover it.


Exactly. And insurance companies seem to be willing to rely on a person's natural instinct for self-preservation combined with a waiting period of several years to avoid payouts due to suicides. Most people who truly want to kill themselves right away aren't going to be willing to wait around for a few years to do it so that someone else gets a big payday. Plus, I think the insurance commissioners of most states tell life insurance companies that they must cover suicides after an initial exclusion period.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Dan203 said:


> I've owned probably 20-30 TiVos over the years and had several HDD failures and a couple of power supply failures. I'd guess that in my personal experience failure rate is about 10%.
> 
> But honestly, as I mentioned above, I mainly got the warranty because the price was basically insignificant to me and it created a convenience factor. Without a warranty if one of the TiVos had died I would have had to trouble shoot it. I most likely would have bought a new HDD at first just to see if that fixed it. But if it turned out to be the power supply I'd either have to buy one from Weaknees and install it myself or pay TiVo for an out of warranty replacement anyway, while now being stuck with an HDD I have to return or use for something else. With the warranty I call them up, they cross ship the replacement, and I'm back up and running in a couple days.
> 
> It's kinda like paying a handyman to do work around the house. I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself, but it sure is nice to not worry about it and have someone else do it instead.


Now that (in my opinion) is a perfectly reasonable justification for getting an extended warranty, one which I believe is covered by case #2 above. All my objections to extended warranties are financial considerations, if you have a non-fiscal rationale my arguments are irrelevant.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> No it isn't, unless you intentionally try to hide the fact that it was a suicide by making it appear to be an accidental death. Suicide is a risk you can insure against, like any other, and insurance companies take the risk of suicide into account when selling life insurance policies. That's why life insurance policies have a waiting period before they will pay off in the event of a suicide.


The act of taking out an insurance contract when you intend to commit suicide is the fraud, not the suicide later. The contract would not have been undertaken in good faith, and if your intent could be proven the insurance payout could be withheld on the common-law principle that one cannot profit from an illegal act (the successful suicide attempt).

Besides being completely morally bankrupt.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> The act of taking out an insurance contract when you intend to commit suicide is the fraud, not the suicide later. The contract would not have been undertaken in good faith, and if your intent could be proven the insurance payout could be withheld on the common-law principle that one cannot profit from an illegal act (the successful suicide attempt).


Suicide has been decriminalized in most places, so your common-law argument doesn't really work. And your idea of contracts where there is a good faith "meeting of the minds" is rather antiquated. Most people have no idea what is actually in the contracts they sign on a daily basis. Everything from credit card contracts to cell phone contracts have all sorts of hidden "gotcha" clauses where companies try to screw over the customers they are contracting with at every turn. "Good faith" as an element of a legal contract is usually only found in a law school classroom these days, not in the real world anymore.

Additionally, intent is not enough for it to be fraud. There has to be some kind of material statement that was detrimentally relied upon. But I suppose that if the insurance company asked the person applying for insurance if they were suicidal and the person said no, and the insurance company could prove that at the time he made that statement he actually was suicidal, then you could possibly make a case for fraud.



ej42137 said:


> Besides being completely morally bankrupt.


Hmm, yes you're right. Taking out an insurance policy for the benefit of your family and loved ones when you realize that you might not always be around to provide for them because you have (through no fault of your own) a potentially lethal mental illness which is compelling you to kill yourself is "completely morally bankrupt". Only the most depraved human being would do such a thing.


----------



## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

I bought the Roamio base when it was released, at full retail, plus PLS.

I'm OTA-only, so recorded shows take a huge amount of space (500GB isn't nearly enough).

I then purchased a 3rd-party extended warranty and dropped in a 3TB drive at the end of 90-day Tivo warranty, since I didn't know if Tivo would offer me a cheap exchange once I modified the Roamio.

BTW, my first Roamio died the first week I had it.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> Suicide has been decriminalized in most places, so your common-law argument doesn't really work. And your idea of contracts where there is a good faith "meeting of the minds" is rather antiquated. Most people have no idea what is actually in the contracts they sign on a daily basis. Everything from credit card contracts to cell phone contracts have all sorts of hidden "gotcha" clauses where companies try to screw over the customers they are contracting with at every turn. "Good faith" as an element of a legal contract is usually only found in a law school classroom these days, not in the real world anymore.
> 
> Additionally, intent is not enough for it to be fraud. There has to be some kind of material statement that was detrimentally relied upon. But I suppose that if the insurance company asked the person applying for insurance if they were suicidal and the person said no, and the insurance company could prove that at the time he made that statement he actually was suicidal, then you could possibly make a case for fraud.
> 
> Hmm, yes you're right. Taking out an insurance policy for the benefit of your family and loved ones when you realize that you might not always be around to provide for them because you have (through no fault of your own) a potentially lethal mental illness which is compelling you to kill yourself is "completely morally bankrupt". Only the most depraved human being would do such a thing.


I think your comments pretty much speak for themselves.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

ej42137 said:


> I think your comments pretty much speak for themselves.


I'm glad you liked them. Let me just add that if the insurance company doesn't specifically ask if you are suicidal at the time you take out the policy, then there is no question that it absolutely would not be fraud. And you would be under no obligation to volunteer that information either.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

tarheelblue32 said:


> I'm glad you liked them. Let me just add that if the insurance company doesn't specifically ask if you are suicidal at the time you take out the policy, then there is no question that it absolutely would not be fraud. And you would be under no obligation to volunteer that information either.


And yet you realize the act is so immoral that it needs to be justified by balancing it against a starving family.

In any case, this is getting absurd. If you want to buy an extended warranty for your TiVo that you intend to drag from the bumper of your car, go ahead.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

joewom said:


> Math is not my strong point but 10% of $900 is $90. 5% is $45. So yes I was off its a few % but not a factor of 10. I had this talk with someone and they said EW are the worst finical move. I asked you have credit card balances? Answer was yes. I said at 0% interest and answer was no. I said you pay them off every month. Again no. I said that sir is the biggest financial mistake. Again are they generally good no. Are they good for some that can afford to waste $40 and not worry to have to waste $900 in the future. Possibly. Every circumstance is different. But I guarantee most everyone that thinks they are so smart with fiances and gives all this advice that you must do this don't do it themselves. Or have one thing that is not smart.


Trouble with your math is that you are assuming the EW protects the PLS.

IT DOES NOT.

Tivo will trasnsfer the PLS to the repaired Tivo regardless of EW or not. Its in the PLS terms not the EW.

The EW ONLY protects you from the $149 expense of out of warranty repair one time during the 3 year period.

Its one of the worst cost to benefit ratio EWs out there.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

jcthorne said:


> Trouble with your math is that you are assuming the EW protects the PLS.
> 
> IT DOES NOT.
> 
> ...


Boy, does this discussion have legs!

IMHO there would be no rational argument for the EW if we were not including the cost of the PLS in the equation. The fact is that the EW does cover both the DVR and the associated PLS.

It seems you are assuming that your exposure to risk is limited to $149 at most and that you can rely on TiVo to replace the malfunctioning unit and transfer the PLS for no more than that amount. But this product support, while substantiated in the past on a case-by-case basis, is not stipulated by TiVo and may not hold true for any given incident in the future. The EW insures that your total DVR/PLS purchase cost is protected, and that is the value reflected in the premium. It is then up to consumers to assess whether that value is worth the cost of the premium to them.

To reiterate, there is general consensus that EW's are a waste of money for most small consumer electronics products; it's the added value of the PLS in the EW coverage that makes it worth consideration in this instance IMO.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> Trouble with your math is that you are assuming the EW protects the PLS.
> 
> IT DOES NOT.
> 
> ...


This thread is making me suicidal 

Where did you read this? From my understanding of the PLS terms, PLS is tied to the box itself.
https://www.tivo.com/buytivo/tivopriceplans/items/plandtls_S00031_ajaxpopup.html

According to this:
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/20

You can transfer PLS if the box replaced under warranty.

Part of my issue with all this "Tivo will transfer, Tivo has transferred" talk is that unless it's a policy.....there's no guarantee that Tivo continues to do this in the future. 2 years from now, Tivo could take a hard-line stance and say, with no EW, you'll have to buy PLS again.

-Kevin


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

DawnW said:


> I have the Roamio and have had it for a couple of weeks now.
> 
> Twice it has had glitches and I honestly don't know if it is the machine or the cable coming in, but it makes me nervous.
> 
> ...


After I accidentally dropped my expensive Nikon camera on the pavement in Disney World, I now buy extended warranties on expensive items. So the answer to your question is "yes". Three year EW on the Roamio, minis, cameras, iPads, iPhones, etc. You get the idea.

And it has paid off for me. I was able to get a camera repaired with absolutely no out-of-pocket cost to me.


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Dumb luck. Stack up all of those $20-$40 insurance policies and compare with the repair cost and nearly everyone is better off self-insuring. Individual stories will, of course, come up here and there. But those are the exceptions. I know others who have had it work out once in a while, eventually they will pay more into them then they got out of them.

But, do as you will. The insuring companies thank you.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> Boy, does this discussion have legs!
> 
> IMHO there would be no rational argument for the EW if we were not including the cost of the PLS in the equation. The fact is that the EW does cover both the DVR and the associated PLS.
> 
> ...


Wrong. The terms of service for the product lifetime service specifically states that they will transfer the PLS to a replacement unit for the first 3 years. Same term as the EW. Again, its the PLS terms that protect that investment, not the EW.

What is open for tivo policy change is what they do after the 3 year term. To date they have transferred the PLS to the replacement unit of the same series regardless of the age of the unit. That may not always be true but the first 3 years are stated. The EW is only for the same 3 years so offers no additional protection for the PLS.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> Wrong. The terms of service for the product lifetime service specifically states that they will transfer the PLS to a replacement unit for the first 3 years. Same term as the EW. Again, its the PLS terms that protect that investment, not the EW.
> 
> What is open for tivo policy change is what they do after the 3 year term. To date they have transferred the PLS to the replacement unit of the same series regardless of the age of the unit. That may not always be true but the first 3 years are stated. The EW is only for the same 3 years so offers no additional protection for the PLS.


Again, where is this stated for the PLS?

From the legal page:
https://www.tivo.com/legal/terms



> A Product Lifetime subscription lasts for the lifetime of your TiVo device (not your lifetime), and may not be transferred to another TiVo device (except in cases of warranty repair or replacement under applicable warranty terms).


-Kevin


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

kbmb said:


> Again, where is this stated for the PLS?
> 
> From the legal page:
> https://www.tivo.com/legal/terms
> ...


Did you read what was in parenthesis.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

joewom said:


> Did you read what was in parenthesis.


Yes, under warranty repair.

In year 2 unless you buy the EW you aren't under warranty.

-Kevin


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

kbmb said:


> Yes, under warranty repair.
> 
> In year 2 unless you buy the EW you aren't under warranty.
> 
> -Kevin


That's what we are talking about. Ew is worth it if you get a pls. Unless I got lost in this mess. I stated 399 tivo and 499 pls is worth 40 dollars for a EW.

Others are saying pls is not covered but a EW


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

joewom said:


> That's what we are talking about. Ew is worth it if you get a pls. Unless I got lost in this mess. I stated 399 tivo and 499 pls is worth 40 dollars for a EW.


I agree, what I'm talking about is what @jcthorne said above here:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10388634#post10388634



> Tivo will trasnsfer the PLS to the repaired Tivo regardless of EW or not. Its in the PLS terms not the EW.


That's the part I don't think is correct.

-Kevin


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

kbmb said:


> I agree, what I'm talking about is what @jcthorne said above here:
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=10388634#post10388634
> 
> That's the part I don't think is correct.
> ...


Oh gotcha.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Ziggie said:


> After I accidentally dropped my expensive Nikon camera on the pavement in Disney World, I now buy extended warranties on expensive items. So the answer to your question is "yes". Three year EW on the Roamio, minis, cameras, iPads, iPhones, etc. You get the idea.
> 
> And it has paid off for me. I was able to get a camera repaired with absolutely no out-of-pocket cost to me.


Yeah, I had a similar experience. I dropped my first cell phone (back in the days when they were expensive) and it smashed. After that, the first thing I buy with a new phone is a good bumper case. Never lost a phone after that.

Pro tip: buy your cases on Amazon, never from the phone's vendor. You can get better cases for way less $$$.


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> Yeah, I had a similar experience. I dropped my first cell phone (back in the days when they were expensive) and it smashed. After that, the first thing I buy with a new phone is a good bumper case. Never lost a phone after that.
> 
> Pro tip: buy your cases on Amazon, never from the phone's vendor. You can get better cases for way less $$$.


I buy everything at Amazon  Love them!

We buy the protection plan for our phones for loss/theft coverage.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Ziggie said:


> I buy everything at Amazon  Love them!
> 
> We buy the protection plan for our phones for loss/theft coverage.


Oh Ziggie. Ziggie, Ziggie, Ziggie...

You know what? Never mind, I'll just keep my big mouth shut this time, metaphorically speaking.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

jcthorne said:


> Wrong. *The terms of service for the product lifetime service specifically states that they will transfer the PLS to a replacement unit for the first 3 years.* Same term as the EW. Again, its the PLS terms that protect that investment, not the EW.


If true, that would be news to me (and others here, obviously). It is also not reflected in the User Agreement quoted yesterday by kbmb.

Source, please?


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

tarheelblue32 said:


> It's not worth it. You'd be better off buying an uninterrupted power supply. Usually what fails is the hard drive, and that is an easy fix. And if your Roamio has lifetime service on it and no warranty, TiVo is generally pretty lenient on letting you buy a replacement unit at a considerable discount.


It's definitely worth it if you plan on selling the TiVo down the road. With a transferable extended warranty it makes the sale of a used Tivo much easier and much quicker too. Since the buyer knows they will be covered if they have some issues.

I have typically purchased extended warranties on most of the 30+ TiVos I've owned. But that was not because I thought it might break down. Only for the resale of the box.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> If true, that would be news to me (and others here, obviously). It is also not reflected in the User Agreement quoted yesterday by kbmb.
> 
> Source, please?


tivo.com


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> Oh Ziggie. Ziggie, Ziggie, Ziggie...
> 
> You know what? Never mind, I'll just keep my big mouth shut this time, metaphorically speaking.


What...


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

Ziggie said:


> What...


He was about to tell you what a waste of money that is because only his opinion on EW is right and everyone that gets one is stupid. Not mine though. 90% are but there is use for them.


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

joewom said:


> He was about to tell you what a waste of money that is because only his opinion on EW is right and everyone that gets one is stupid. Not mine though. 90% are but there is use for them.


Ah, ok. Thanks joewom


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

jcthorne said:


> tivo.com


That would be an admission that you made this up, right?

You stated:


jcthorne said:


> The terms of service for the product lifetime service* specifically states* that they will transfer the PLS to a replacement unit for the first 3 years.


So where is it "specifically stated"? Please provide the link and educate us.

OTOH if you can not document your assertion, then I submit that you are just blowing smoke.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

chiguy50 said:


> That would be an admission that you made this up, right?
> 
> You stated:
> 
> ...


No, I read it and have a copy of the TOS for the PLS. If I copied it here, you would just tell me I made it up. I am not going to spend time combing the tivo.com archives to find a ling and then highlight the specific section just to save you the time to do so. If you want to waste your money on an EW because you will not take the time to do your homework, fine with me.

I am perfectly content to know what protections I have and have exercised with tivo. CS agent even agreeing with my interpretation of the TOS without even a hint of argument. They were very nice indeed about it. Its also been posted here at TCF before about the time the PLS option came back after being gone for several years.

Do your own homework.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

jcthorne said:


> No, I read it and have a copy of the TOS for the PLS. If I copied it here, you would just tell me I made it up. I am not going to spend time combing the tivo.com archives to find a ling and then highlight the specific section just to save you the time to do so. If you want to waste your money on an EW because you will not take the time to do your homework, fine with me.
> 
> I am perfectly content to know what protections I have and have exercised with tivo. CS agent even agreeing with my interpretation of the TOS without even a hint of argument. They were very nice indeed about it. Its also been posted here at TCF before about the time the PLS option came back after being gone for several years.
> 
> Do your own homework.


That's pretty much as I supposed: You are talking out of your [email protected]@. There is nothing in the PLS agreement that stipulates that TiVo will transfer it to another DVR if the original DVR malfunctions within the first three years.

If you can document it, that's a different matter. Otherwise, readers of this forum should assume that you don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

chiguy50 said:


> That's pretty much as I supposed: You are talking out of your [email protected]@. There is nothing in the PLS agreement that stipulates that TiVo will transfer it to another DVR if the original DVR malfunctions within the first three years.
> 
> If you can document it, that's a different matter. Otherwise, readers of this forum should assume that you don't know what you're talking about.


So your saying a warranty for a product that comes with a lifetime service and if said company must replace the product the service is not included in the warranty? Sorry that is not a fight even a rather large company Tivo would want. You buy a tivo product with lifetime "product service" the service will be replaced if the product said service is on if under warranty. It's a PR and legal nightmare regardless of the TOSS don't specify. Courts always side with reasonable interpretation.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

joewom said:


> So your saying a warranty for a product that comes with a lifetime service and if said company must replace the product the service is not included in the warranty? Sorry that is not a fight even a rather large company Tivo would want. You buy a tivo product with lifetime "product service" the service will be replaced if the product said service is on if under warranty. It's a PR and legal nightmare regardless of the TOSS don't specify. Courts always side with reasonable interpretation.


I guess you didn't notice that you've surrendered your legal recourse in favor of arbitration chosen by TiVo when you engaged service?


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> I guess you didn't notice that you've surrendered your legal recourse to arbitration chosen by TiVo when you bought lifetime service then.


No contract can take you right to sue if you desire. There is case law on this very thing.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

joewom said:


> No contract can take you right to sue if you desire. There is case law on this very thing.


Yeah, let me know how that goes for you.


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

joewom said:


> So your saying a warranty for a product that comes with a lifetime service and if said company must replace the product the service is not included in the warranty? Sorry that is not a fight even a rather large company Tivo would want. You buy a tivo product with lifetime "product service" the service will be replaced if the product said service is on if under warranty. It's a PR and legal nightmare regardless of the TOSS don't specify. Courts always side with reasonable interpretation.


What?

PLS is tied to the hardware. Tivo states they will transfer PLS to new hardware, if the original hardware is replaced UNDER WARRANTY.

That means either within the first year of service, or within 3 years if you purchased the extended warranty.

If your PLS Tivo dies 1.5 years after purchase and you don't have EW then Tivo doesn't have to transfer anything. Doesn't mean they won't if you ask, or at least give a discount, but that's not policy. YMMV.

If someone who argues this can point to the written policy, then I will stand corrected. Until then I'm going by what policies I see.

-Kevin


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> Yeah, let me know how that goes for you.


Doubt I ever will have the amount worth to try. There is case law all over the place. Bottom line 7th amendment guarentee trial by jury. But I would spend way more in legal fees the it's worth. Still would be a PR nightmare. Once you post to social media and all that tivo would take a hit. Power of social media have brought bigger companies to do things they say they wouldn't.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

kbmb said:


> What?
> 
> PLS is tied to the hardware. Tivo states they will transfer PLS to new hardware, if the original hardware is replaced UNDER WARRANTY.
> 
> ...


Exactly!!!!


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

joewom said:


> He was about to tell you what a waste of money that is because only his opinion on EW is right and everyone that gets one is stupid. Not mine though. 90% are but there is use for them.


I see well-meaning people being scammed out of their hard-earned money by duplicity, it fills me with moral outrage and I must speak out. I don't really think any of the people I argue with are stupid, but they have a common blind spot when it comes to estimating risk and probabilities in financial transactions.

But fine, I'll go back to encouraging people to support TiVo by buying extended warranties; some found that amusing. But you can't expect me to encourage people to waste more money on their cell phone carrier, for God's sake!


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

ej42137 said:


> I see well-meaning people being scammed out of their hard-earned money by duplicity, it fills me with moral outrage and I must speak out. I don't really think any of the people I argue with are stupid, but they have a common blind spot when it comes to estimating risk and probabilities in financial transactions.
> 
> But fine, I'll go back to encouraging people to support TiVo by buying extended warranties; some found that amusing. But you can't expect me to encourage people to waste more money on their cell phone carrier, for God's sake!


I have cell protection on my kids lines. Trust me they have paid way more then I have.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

ej42137 said:


> I see well-meaning people being scammed out of their hard-earned money by duplicity, it fills me with moral outrage and I must speak out. I don't really think any of the people I argue with are stupid, but they have a common blind spot when it comes to estimating risk and probabilities in financial transactions.
> 
> But fine,* I'll go back to encouraging people to support TiVo by buying extended warranties*; some found that amusing. But you can't expect me to encourage people to waste more money on their cell phone carrier, for God's sake!


All we're saying is that the TiVo EW is worth considering on a box that has PLS. You should neither encourage the purchase nor discourage it, but rather suggest that the consumer consider all the salient factors (excluding unsubstantiated statements on this forum) and decide for themselves whether it's worth the additional cost.

It's that simple.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

kbmb said:


> What?
> 
> PLS is tied to the hardware. Tivo states they will transfer PLS to new hardware, if the original hardware is replaced UNDER WARRANTY.
> 
> ...


Or longer if you purchased the extended warranty from a TiVo retailer. Like BestBuy. The extended warranty I purchased from them on my Roamio Pro was four years.


----------



## joewom (Dec 10, 2013)

aaronwt said:


> Or longer if you purchased the extended warranty from a TiVo retailer. Like BestBuy. The extended warranty I purchased from them on my Roamio Pro was four years.


I would do allot of research if you get a EW from anyone else the. Tivo as tivo won't consider it under waranty and best buy I doubt will pay for the PSL of tivo not transfer it. Not saying that's facts just saying consider and research.


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

chiguy50 said:


> All we're saying is that the TiVo EW is worth considering on a box that has PLS. You should neither encourage the purchase nor discourage it, but rather suggest that the consumer consider all the salient factors (excluding unsubstantiated statements on this forum) and decide for themselves whether it's worth the additional cost.
> 
> It's that simple.


Very well said :up:


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

joewom said:


> I would do allot of research if you get a EW from anyone else the. Tivo as tivo won't consider it under waranty and best buy I doubt will pay for the PSL of tivo not transfer it. Not saying that's facts just saying consider and research.


Just the opposite. They consider it under warranty with the BestBuy extended warranty and will transfer the lifetime service over to the replacement. At least that used to be the case unless something has changed recently. In the past people have had TiVos replaced from BestBuy under their extended warranty and TiVo transferred their lifetime service over.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> All we're saying is that the TiVo EW is worth considering on a box that has PLS. You should neither encourage the purchase nor discourage it, but rather suggest that the consumer consider all the salient factors (excluding unsubstantiated statements on this forum) and decide for themselves whether it's worth the additional cost.
> 
> It's that simple.


Multiply the replacement cost of your TiVo by whatever you expect is the probability of a failure covered within the extended warranty. If the product in future dollars exceeds the present cost of the extended warranty, you should buy it for financial reasons. I myself have never come to that conclusion, and analysis of the lifespans of the 13 TiVo DVRs I have purchased (all with lifetime) indicate that every penny that I might have spent on extended warranties would have been completely wasted.

As Dan and others point out, there are other reasons besides financial which could justify buying an extended warranty, and in many cases I agree with them. But if extended warranties made financial sense nobody would sell you one for obvious reasons.

So therefor I urge to all to buy your extended warranties, but only directly from TiVo so that every penny goes to the good cause of supporting the product!


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

joewom said:


> Doubt I ever will have the amount worth to try. There is case law all over the place. Bottom line 7th amendment guarentee trial by jury. But I would spend way more in legal fees the it's worth. Still would be a PR nightmare. Once you post to social media and all that tivo would take a hit. Power of social media have brought bigger companies to do things they say they wouldn't.


All I see reported is cases affirming arbitration agreements and articles by scholars decrying this as eroding the 7th. But if you're backing down from pursuing this I guess it's moot.


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> _Multiply the replacement cost of your TiVo by whatever you expect is the probability of a failure covered within the extended warranty. _If the product in future dollars exceeds the present cost of the extended warranty, you should buy it for financial reasons. I myself have never come to that conclusion, and analysis of the lifespans of the 13 TiVo DVRs I have purchased (all with lifetime) indicate that every penny that I might have spent on extended warranties would have been completely wasted.
> 
> As Dan and others point out, there are other reasons besides financial which could justify buying an extended warranty, and in many cases I agree with them. But if extended warranties made financial sense nobody would sell you one for obvious reasons.
> 
> So therefor I urge to all to buy your extended warranties, but only directly from TiVo so that every penny goes to the good cause of supporting the product!


For us, the probability is very high. We suffer tremendous power surges and weekly brown outs on a regular basis (South Florida here). Even though the electric company installed a house surge protector, it does not cover electronics. So, in one fell swoop late last year we lost 3 TiVos, a surround sound system, 2 TVs (one was an expensive Sony HDTV), kitchen appliances and other items. We have (and still are) looking into systems that can help prevent future losses.

For us, we are comfortable purchasing extended warranties on most items.


----------



## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

Ziggie said:


> For us, the probability is very high. We suffer tremendous power surges and weekly brown outs on a regular basis (South Florida here). Even though the electric company installed a house surge protector, it does not cover electronics. So, in one fell swoop late last year we lost 3 TiVos, a surround sound system, 2 TVs (one was an expensive Sony HDTV), kitchen appliances and other items. We have (and still are) looking into systems that can help prevent future losses.
> 
> For us, we are comfortable purchasing extended warranties on most items.


There are spark-gap lightning arrestors designed to protect your house's wiring from having its insulation destroyed by lightning surges. As a secondary level of protection, I think you can also buy whole-house surge suppressors based on MOV technology, which should act fast enough and at a low enough overvoltage to protect equipment. But a TiVo (or anything with a hard disk drive) should (also) be on a UPS to protect against not only surges but also short power interruptions, power glitches, and brownouts which no surge suppressor alone can handle. Even if you don't mind filing lots of insurance claims, it's just better to protect your equipment as well as possible.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

ej42137 said:


> But if extended warranties made financial sense nobody would sell you one for obvious reasons.


This part of your argument is nonsensical. Are you suggesting that the only EW worth purchasing is one that was designed by the seller as a loss leader? Good luck finding one of those.

An EW is essentially property insurance. All commercial insurance products are designed to generate a net profit for the seller (although there is usually a risk that it won't under certain extreme scenarios). Conversely, no insurance product will normally make financial sense for the insured unless/until he needs to claim a loss. You are paying a premium in order to mitigate risk. Like the TiVo service itself, there is a cost to be paid in return for a service rendered. If the service (in this case risk mitigation) is not worth it to you by your calculation (whether strictly financial or a combination of financial and intangibles), then you should forgo the cost.

It almost sounds like I am a fan of EW's, which could not be less true. I consider them a waste of money in most cases. There are exceptions, however, and I think each scenario requires an informed analysis in order to arrive at a practical decision. In B&M stores, for example, if you are a skilled negotiator you can sometimes use the store's EW (which is usually a huge profit-maker) as a bargaining chip to get a better deal on your electronics purchase (which may have much lower profit margins for the store).



Ziggie said:


> For us, the probability is very high. We suffer tremendous power surges and weekly brown outs on a regular basis (South Florida here). Even though the electric company installed a house surge protector, it does not cover electronics. So, in one fell swoop late last year we lost 3 TiVos, a surround sound system, 2 TVs (one was an expensive Sony HDTV), kitchen appliances and other items. We have (and still are) looking into systems that can help prevent future losses.
> 
> For us, we are comfortable purchasing extended warranties on most items.


Are you using a good UPS for your electronics? If not, then you should strongly consider doing so. My area does not have nearly the degree of power fluctuations that yours does and I have all my essential A/V equipment and computers on UPS's. The cost of the UPS and replacement batteries is an even better insurance value than an EW in my eyes (besides providing the added benefit of not losing a recording in a power outage).


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Ziggie said:


> For us, the probability is very high. We suffer tremendous power surges and weekly brown outs on a regular basis (South Florida here). Even though the electric company installed a house surge protector, it does not cover electronics. So, in one fell swoop late last year we lost 3 TiVos, a surround sound system, 2 TVs (one was an expensive Sony HDTV), kitchen appliances and other items. We have (and still are) looking into systems that can help prevent future losses.
> 
> For us, we are comfortable purchasing extended warranties on most items.


A few UPSs may have saved those TVs and TiVos.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> A few UPSs may have saved those TVs and TiVos.


+1


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Ziggie said:


> For us, the probability is very high. We suffer tremendous power surges and weekly brown outs on a regular basis (South Florida here). Even though the electric company installed a house surge protector, it does not cover electronics. So, in one fell swoop late last year we lost 3 TiVos, a surround sound system, 2 TVs (one was an expensive Sony HDTV), kitchen appliances and other items. We have (and still are) looking into systems that can help prevent future losses.
> 
> For us, we are comfortable purchasing extended warranties on most items.


You'd be way ahead buying a UPS instead. IMO.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> This part of your argument is nonsensical. Are you suggesting that the only EW worth purchasing is one that was designed by the seller as a loss leader? Good luck finding one of those.


You get my point! That is exactly the only EW that would be worth buying, if it were to exist. And you are correct, sir, they do not!

If an EW was worth purchasing financially, it would be paying out more than it would take in. Why would anyone sell something that would cost them money? Economically speaking, they would only do that if they had imperfect knowledge; if you think your estimate of risk in your specific situation is better than the underwriter's, take out the policy. And I wish that I could take a piece of that action somehow.

You are correct, it's insurance. And it makes no sense to buy insurance to protect yourself against small injuries, it will just cost you more in the long run. If you think that out the policy is likely to result in making you a profit, you are almost certainly deluding yourself.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

chiguy50 said:


> n B&M stores, for example, if you are a skilled negotiator you can sometimes use the store's EW (which is usually a huge profit-maker) as a bargaining chip to get a better deal on your electronics purchase (which may have much lower profit margins for the store).


I would have characterized that transaction much differently. By the way, I happen to know a Nigerian prince who needs to transfer some funds; would you be interested in making some quick cash?


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

chiguy50 said:


> This part of your argument is nonsensical. Are you suggesting that the only EW worth purchasing is one that was designed by the seller as a loss leader? Good luck finding one of those.
> 
> An EW is essentially property insurance. All commercial insurance products are designed to generate a net profit for the seller (although there is usually a risk that it won't under certain extreme scenarios). Conversely, no insurance product will normally make financial sense for the insured unless/until he needs to claim a loss. You are paying a premium in order to mitigate risk. Like the TiVo service itself, there is a cost to be paid in return for a service rendered. If the service (in this case risk mitigation) is not worth it to you by your calculation (whether strictly financial or a combination of financial and intangibles), then you should forgo the cost.
> 
> ...





aaronwt said:


> A few UPSs may have saved those TVs and TiVos.





tarheelblue32 said:


> +1





ej42137 said:


> You'd be way ahead buying a UPS instead. IMO.


Believe me, I absolutely agree with all of you. You're all completely right.

But I ask you, for one minute, to imagine having to put nearly every valuable/somewhat expensive electronic device you own on a UPS. Just looking around right now, we'd need 6 just in the room I'm sitting in.

Right now, medical expenses preclude us purchasing multiple UPS units. But honestly, its like playing Russian roulette here. We lose power and have brown outs if it's too sunny out, too cloudy, the wind blows too strong, the wind blows too soft, it's Tuesday or meatless Monday, it's a day beginning with a one or a two, etc. To put it bluntly, it's ridiculous.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

ej42137 said:


> *If an EW was worth purchasing financially, it would be paying out more than it would take in.* Why would anyone sell something that would cost them money? Economically speaking, they would only do that if they had imperfect knowledge; if you think your estimate of risk in your specific situation is better than the underwriter's, take out the policy. And I wish that I could take a piece of that action somehow.


This is an erroneous evaluation method for assessing the value of insurance.

Again, the issue is risk mitigation; the insurance company (or EW issuer) can make money by pooling the risk, whereas the individual policyholder is exposed on an individualized basis. If your PLS'ed TiVo goes t!ts up more than 12 months beyond the purchase date, you stand to lose 100% of your purchase price--perhaps $1000; for the insurer it's likely a tiny fraction of 1% of the total pooled premiums. There are other factors in play, but that's the basic scenario.



ej42137 said:


> You are correct, it's insurance. And it makes no sense to buy insurance to protect yourself against small injuries, it will just cost you more in the long run.


I agree that it's more cost-effective to self-insure against minor losses, which is why I would not advise getting an EW for a non-PLS'ed TiVo. But for most people, anything in the neighborhood of $1000 is not a minor loss. And we're just talking calculables now without consideration of the intangibles such as peace of mind (usually a strong motivational factor for buying any type of insurance) and increased TiVo resale value.



ej42137 said:


> If you think that out the policy is* likely to result in making you a profit*, you are almost certainly deluding yourself.


Once again, it's not about "making a profit" but rather mitigating the risk of a major loss. The crux of my argument is that anyone contemplating an EW for a major purchase should perform their own evaluation of the risk and decide on that basis whether the EW cost is worthwhile to them on a case-by-case basis.



ej42137 said:


> I would have characterized that transaction much differently. By the way, I happen to know a Nigerian prince who needs to transfer some funds; would you be interested in making some quick cash?


It seems you do not understand the hypothetical transaction properly. The point is that the store will realize a larger profit percentage from the sale of their proprietary EW than from the third-party CE product. So I can spend the same amount (or less) and the store can make more off of the transaction by offering the CE product at a discount. IOW by accepting the EW in the mix I have more negotiating power to get the store to lower the sales price of the product I want to purchase (and I gain the benefit of the EW).

Just how intimate is your relationship with this Nigerian prince with whom you've been corresponding?


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

Ziggie said:


> Believe me, I absolutely agree with all of you. You're all completely right.
> 
> But I ask you, for one minute, to imagine having to put nearly every valuable/somewhat expensive electronic device you own on a UPS. Just looking around right now, we'd need 6 just in the room I'm sitting in.
> 
> Right now, medical expenses preclude us purchasing multiple UPS units. But honestly, its like playing Russian roulette here. We lose power and have brown outs if it's too sunny out, too cloudy, the wind blows too strong, the wind blows too soft, it's Tuesday or meatless Monday, it's a day beginning with a one or a two, etc. To put it bluntly, it's ridiculous.


Sorry to hear about your medical expenses. Hopefully soon they will go away. :up:

You don't need to UPS everything.....things like TVs can typically just be protected by surge protectors. But anything with a spinning hard drive can benefit greatly by having some kind of UPS on it. It doesn't need to be big or fancy or last long. It's ok if the UPS shuts down 5 minutes after it starts......it's still protecting the equipment from the quick on/off of surges or brownouts. Those are the things that KILL electronics. The UPS allows it to survive all the little blips in the electricity.

-Kevin


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Ziggie said:


> Believe me, I absolutely agree with all of you. You're all completely right.
> 
> But I ask you, for one minute, to imagine having to put nearly every valuable/somewhat expensive electronic device you own on a UPS. Just looking around right now, we'd need 6 just in the room I'm sitting in.
> 
> Right now, medical expenses preclude us purchasing multiple UPS units. But honestly, its like playing Russian roulette here. We lose power and have brown outs if it's too sunny out, too cloudy, the wind blows too strong, the wind blows too soft, it's Tuesday or meatless Monday, it's a day beginning with a one or a two, etc. To put it bluntly, it's ridiculous.


I hear you! It's just my wife and I in our household and we have six UPS's. The cost (and bother) is not inconsiderable, but it's well worth it to us. BTW, I try never to buy a UPS (or a printer) that will not permit the use of non-OEM replacement parts, such as batteries or ink cartridges. You can save a pretty penny that way.


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

kbmb said:


> Sorry to hear about your medical expenses. Hopefully soon they will go away. :up:
> 
> You don't need to UPS everything.....things like TVs can typically just be protected by surge protectors. But anything with a spinning hard drive can benefit greatly by having some kind of UPS on it. It doesn't need to be big or fancy or last long. It's ok if the UPS shuts down 5 minutes after it starts......it's still protecting the equipment from the quick on/off of surges or brownouts. Those are the things that KILL electronics. The UPS allows it to survive all the little blips in the electricity.
> 
> -Kevin


Thanks Kevin for the well wishes regarding our medical expenses. My next surgery is scheduled for March 11th. We have good insurance (hubby works for a Fortune 50 company) and yet, there is still so much it doesn't cover. I won't complain, because we are blessed to have insurance, but my office appointment last Monday (a week ago today) was $744.00. (sorry, don't want to go off on a tangent here).

Anyway, the TVs we lost were on surge protectors. All our electronics are on surge protectors but they are not on UPSs. The power surges do indeed kill electronics, you are so right! We lost little things too.. like called ID units, digital clocks, etc.

I would welcome any recommendations you can make regarding UPSs.

And, if you need a chuckle, here is some "wisdom" from our power company's web page explaining their reasoning for brown outs:

_An example would be when a branch or animal makes contact with a line:

The system automatically switches electricity off and gives the animal or trees a chance to clear the line to eliminate the problem.
Once this problem clears, usually in seconds, the electrical system resets itself.
By automatically clearing the problem that causes the interruption, it avoids longer power outages that are more inconvenient to you.

_

Imagine how many times this happens in one week lol


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

chiguy50 said:


> I hear you! It's just my wife and I in our household and we have six UPS's. The cost (and bother) is not inconsiderable, but it's well worth it to us. BTW, I try never to buy a UPS (or a printer) that will not permit the use of non-OEM replacement parts, such as batteries or ink cartridges. You can save a pretty penny that way.


I'm a HUGE Sophia Global fan! (inexpensive ink cartridges for the win!)


----------



## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

Ziggie said:


> Anyway, the TVs we lost were on surge protectors. All our electronics are on surge protectors but they are not on UPSs. The power surges do indeed kill electronics, you are so right! We lost little things too.. like called ID units, digital clocks, etc.
> 
> I would welcome any recommendations you can make regarding UPSs.


Ah that stinks. Guess we've been lucky where our TVs have survived just being on the surge side..........runs to move them to the UPS side before Murphy's law kicks in 

There are some smart people on these forums that know a lot more about electricity than me.....hopefully some of them can advise on what's best. Sounds like the brownout/surges situation where you are is worst than most.

-Kevin


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

kbmb said:


> Ah that stinks. Guess we've been lucky where our TVs have survived just being on the surge side..........runs to move them to the UPS side before Murphy's law kicks in
> 
> There are some smart people on these forums that know a lot more about electricity than me.....hopefully some of them can advise on what's best. Sounds like the brownout/surges situation where you are is worst than most.
> 
> -Kevin


Even "sea spray" affects the wires here


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Ziggie said:


> I would welcome any recommendations you can make regarding UPSs


Personally, I like CyberPower for their reliability, pricing, PowerPanel UI (via PC or laptop), and the availability of non-OEM replacement batteries for most models. But you'd be well served by any of the major brands, e.g., APC, Tripp Lite, Belkin, et al.


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Ziggie said:


> Even "sea spray" affects the wires here


Why the quotation marks? I hope that's not a euphemism!


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

chiguy50 said:


> Personally, I like CyberPower for their reliability, pricing, PowerPanel UI (via PC or laptop), and the availability of non-OEM replacement batteries for most models. But you'd be well served by any of the major brands, e.g., APC, Tripp Lite, Belkin, et al.


Thanks chiguy! I appreciate your suggestions :up: 



chiguy50 said:


> Why the quotation marks? I hope that's not a euphemism!


LoL!  

Here's the direct quote from the power company web page:

_sea spray coating the power lines_

We're like on top of the ocean, so I guess I understand. But, then again, they can't develop something that can prevent this?


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

joewom said:


> No contract can take you right to sue if you desire. There is case law on this very thing.


Not to digress, but: mandatory arbitration clauses (which force parties to arbitrate privately rather than have a court lawsuit) are common and routinely are enforced. There are exceptions, depending on the court, the jurisdiction, and the arbitration clause--for example, where the enforcement of the requirement does not apply equally, to all the parties, and depends on who is bringing the lawsuit (courts don't like it when a requirement like this is on the little guy--the consumer--and not on the other side as well). But as a general matter, "fair" arbitration clauses routinely are enforceable and enforced. The Consumer Law 101 lesson for the day.


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

chiguy50 said:


> Personally, I like CyberPower for their reliability, pricing, PowerPanel UI (via PC or laptop), and the availability of non-OEM replacement batteries for most models. But you'd be well served by any of the major brands, e.g., APC, Tripp Lite, Belkin, et al.


Chiguy we purchased a CyberPower unit today. I'm hoping this is a step in the right direction for us :up: Thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## tarheelblue32 (Jan 13, 2014)

Mikeguy said:


> Not to digress, but: mandatory arbitration clauses (which force parties to arbitrate privately rather than have a court lawsuit) are common and routinely are enforced. There are exceptions, depending on the court, the jurisdiction, and the arbitration clause--for example, where the enforcement of the requirement does not apply equally, to all the parties, and depends on who is bringing the lawsuit (courts don't like it when a requirement like this is on the little guy--the consumer--and not on the other side as well). But as a general matter, "fair" arbitration clauses routinely are enforceable and enforced. The Consumer Law 101 lesson for the day.


Sadly, this is correct. The Supreme Court has consistently ruled in several cases over the last few years that binding arbitration clauses are for the most part enforceable. In light of the Supreme Court's relative clarity on the subject, many companies in the last few years have amended their user agreements to include binding arbitration clauses. I think TiVo amended theirs just a couple years ago.


----------



## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

I bought the 29.99 three year extended warranty. 30 bucks for 3 years of peace of mind was not too bad.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

gespears said:


> I bought the 29.99 three year extended warranty. 30 bucks for 3 years of peace of mind was not too bad.


I think you put your finger on a major determinant: the peace-of-mind. While financially as a matter of odds, the statistics show that it generally is better to self-insure, other factors such as peace-of-mind, transport costs and hassles especially with large pieces of equipment, etc., can tip the scale the other way.

I am curious, though: when I spoke with TiVo, I was told that the cost for an extended warranty on the base Roamio is $29.99 for 2 years and $39.99 for 3. Do you have different equipment, or are getting the warranty elsewhere?


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Ziggie said:


> Chiguy we purchased a CyberPower unit today. I'm hoping this is a step in the right direction for us :up: Thanks for the recommendation.


YW! I hope that you will be happy with whatever model you got.

For me, one thing I appreciate on the CyberPower models is the USB-connection to the PowerPanel UI. The two UPS's supporting my A/V equipment are behind a huge 3-section custom wall unit and are not easily accessible. I have the USB cables attached to both UPS's and can simply hook up a laptop anytime I want to check on power consumption, battery levels, or power interruption history.


----------



## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

Mikeguy said:


> I am curious, though: when I spoke with TiVo, I was told that the cost for an extended warranty on the base Roamio is $29.99 for 2 years and $39.99 for 3. Do you have different equipment, or are getting the warranty elsewhere?


It was via TiVo's website utilizing a Spherular eBay coupon to purchase a Roamio Pro with lifetime and warranty.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

gespears said:


> It was via TiVo's website utilizing a Spherular eBay coupon to purchase a Roamio Pro with lifetime and warranty.


Got it--thanks!


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

chiguy50 said:


> YW! I hope that you will be happy with whatever model you got.
> 
> For me, one thing I appreciate on the CyberPower models is the USB-connection to the PowerPanel UI. The two UPS's supporting my A/V equipment are behind a huge 3-section custom wall unit and are not easily accessible. I have the USB cables attached to both UPS's and can simply hook up a laptop anytime I want to check on power consumption, battery levels, or power interruption history.


I might be back here so you can teach me how to use it lol!  We got the UPS 1500VA 900W AVR Mini-Tower. This past Thursday, we had 6 full brown outs within 120 seconds


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> _I think you put your finger on a major determinant: the peace-of-mind. While financially as a matter of odds, the statistics show that it generally is better to self-insure, other factors such as peace-of-mind, transport costs and hassles especially with large pieces of equipment, etc., can tip the scale the other way.
> _
> I am curious, though: when I spoke with TiVo, I was told that the cost for an extended warranty on the base Roamio is $29.99 for 2 years and $39.99 for 3. Do you have different equipment, or are getting the warranty elsewhere?


Agreed. We just have way too many power brown outs (and full loss of power too) to play the odds.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Well, and a special factor particular to oneself, such as higher brownouts, changes those odds.


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

Mikeguy said:


> Well, and a special factor particular to oneself, such as higher brownouts, changes those odds.


Yes, yes. We lost so much equipment (I think I posted about it further back in the thread). So, for us, an extended warranty takes away an element of fear for me. Brown outs/power surges, when we're sleeping, are quite common. Like I said, we had to have a house one installed by the electric company.


----------



## mae (Dec 10, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> Just the opposite. They consider it under warranty with the BestBuy extended warranty and will transfer the lifetime service over to the replacement. At least that used to be the case unless something has changed recently. In the past people have had TiVos replaced from BestBuy under their extended warranty and TiVo transferred their lifetime service over.


Sorry to be so late to the party, but I've been away for 4 weeks in the sun, and I'm just catching up.

A year ago, BB replaced my 3 year, 10 month old Premier XL with a Roamio Plus, and TiVo transferred the PLS. See, http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=514639 , post #11.

This must be the 100th time I've seen this debate here since I bought my Sony Series 1. The bottom line is that no one answer is for everyone, an EW is a personal choice that should be based on finance, risk aversion, peace of mind, ease of use and your own experience.

I've received a new generation replacement TiVo's twice (my Series 1 to an HD, XL to Roamio) and transferred PLS using a (third party-Circuit City/BestBuy) warranty. My experience was a good investment for the cost. YMMV.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Helpful stuff, mae, thanks--


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

mae said:


> Sorry to be so late to the party, but I've been away for 4 weeks in the sun, and I'm just catching up.
> 
> A year ago, BB replaced my 3 year, 10 month old Premier XL with a Roamio Plus, and TiVo transferred the PLS. See, http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=514639 , post #11.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this Mae. I agree... _The bottom line is that no one answer is for everyone, an EW is a personal choice that should be based on finance, risk aversion, peace of mind, ease of use and your own experience._


----------



## chiguy50 (Nov 9, 2009)

Ziggie said:


> I might be back here so you can teach me how to use it lol!  We got the UPS 1500VA 900W AVR Mini-Tower. This past Thursday, we had 6 full brown outs within 120 seconds


Is this the model you bought: CP1500AVRLCD? If so, you have the LCD readout on the unit, so if it's easily accessible you can get operational information right off of the display. Otherwise, or for more detailed info, just go to this webpage, download the SW onto your Windows OS laptop or PC and follow the simple menu-driven system; you will also find a detailed program description on this same webpage. If you are a Mac or Linux user, there are different SW programs; you will find the links at the bottom of the UPS product page (see my first link above).

Here's an image of the "current status" screen:


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

chiguy50 said:


> Is this the model you bought: CP1500AVRLCD? If so, you have the LCD readout on the unit, so if it's easily accessible you can get operational information right off of the display. Otherwise, or for more detailed info, just go to this webpage, download the SW onto your Windows OS laptop or PC and follow the simple menu-driven system; you will also find a detailed program description on this same webpage. If you are a Mac or Linux user, there are different SW programs; you will find the links at the bottom of the UPS product page (see my first link above).
> 
> Here's an image of the "current status" screen:


Yes, Chiguy, that's the one!  We haven't set it up yet but I'm hoping that process won't be too difficult(?) And thank you for the software link!


----------



## bsbd (Mar 1, 2015)

gespears said:


> It was via TiVo's website utilizing a Spherular eBay coupon to purchase a Roamio Pro with lifetime and warranty.


Better double check that... I just used a discount code from spherular this morning on the TiVo website to purchase a Roamio Pro + lifetime + warranty, and there were no discounts for either of the two extended warranty options... 2-years was still $29.99 and 3-years was still $39.99.


----------



## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

My opinion is if you buy lifetime service with a new unit then I suggest you take the extended three year warranty. I did this on both my Premiere 4s and I just had one develop an issue. This unit will be two years old in the end of June.
I am going through the exchange this week. I will get a replacement Premiere 4 at no charge. My lifetime service is being moved to the replacement box.
For $40 this is a good deal. I see people buying a $100 worth of scratch off lottery tickets and not get one winner.
When I get the replacement I will put a three year warranty on this unit after the 30 days are up.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Jed1 said:


> My opinion is if you buy lifetime service with a new unit then I suggest you take the extended three year warranty. I did this on both my Premiere 4s and I just had one develop an issue. This unit will be two years old in the end of June.
> I am going through the exchange this week. I will get a replacement Premiere 4 at no charge. My lifetime service is being moved to the replacement box.
> For $40 this is a good deal. I see people buying a $100 worth of scratch off lottery tickets and not get one winner.
> When I get the replacement I will put a three year warranty on this unit after the 30 days are up.


Buying an extended warranty is exactly like playing the lottery. Every once in a while it pays off and you get the gambler's rush from winning; but in the long run the house always wins.


----------



## Ziggie (Jan 20, 2004)

ej42137 said:


> Buying an extended warranty is exactly like playing the lottery. Every once in a while it pays off and you get the gambler's rush from winning; but in the long run the house always wins.


I disagree. Especially with your use of the word "always".


----------



## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

"Wins" needs to be taken in the context it was provided- in the long run. That means both over time, and across many participants. Any win by the user is just a singular data point, and the cost of doing business to the operator.

The real question is, just like in vegas, what is the profit margin for the offer, and what is the likelihood of capitalizing on the offer. For these, the profit margin for the house is huge, much bigger than for a normal insurance policy, while the likelihood of using such offer is very small. Considering the amount at risk, which is actually minimal compared to other insurance policies (medical, home, car), self-insurance is the best financial advice.

Not to say these are not useful to those who don't want the risk of having to either fix, repair, or repurchase, or who measure the cost for it to be unusually high.

Anyhow, to each their own. The odds are clearly in the house's favor, there would be no offers otherwise, but as a user if someone wants to subsidize my service, then I'm better off.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

Ziggie said:


> I disagree. Especially with your use of the word "always".


In the long run the house always wins. If they stop winning, they change the rules. Remember card counting? Once people started using it effectively, it was declared to be cheating. In the long run the house always wins. If it doesn't, it's not "the house" any more, it's that place we used to go before it went broke. The choice you get is whether or not to play the game.


----------



## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

The house always wins, _as a whole_. But an individual's specific circumstances may change the odds _for that individual_, such as where with problematic wiring or other electrical complications.


----------



## raqball (Feb 23, 2015)

I'll probably get the extended warranty. I purchased another Roamio with lifetime last week that's currently on it's way to me and I have the option under my account to add it.

How long after purchase do I have to decide / add it? I'm figuring even if I never use the warranty it's worth $40 for piece of mind alone..


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

WOW!! I just made out with an extended warranty I had from BestBuy. In 2012 I bought a couple of 16" USB powered monitors and the four year extended warranties. I just had an issue with one of the USB ports. So they ordered me a new one. I got a three year extended warranty since they don't offer four years any more. And I still got back $26. So I'll get a new one with a three year warranty and money back. Which was a great deal. I only wish BestBuy still sold the USB powered 22" monitor. I would have put the money toward that one instead.


----------



## gespears (Aug 10, 2007)

bsbd said:


> Better double check that... I just used a discount code from spherular this morning on the TiVo website to purchase a Roamio Pro + lifetime + warranty, and there were no discounts for either of the two extended warranty options... 2-years was still $29.99 and 3-years was still $39.99.


You are correct. I double checked and it was 30 bucks for tax and 40 bucks for the warranty. I actually make out okay though. I sold my two premieres on eBay for 340 and 350. Only was out a couple hundred after everything. I can't complain about that.


----------

