# R10 .vs R15 DirecTV DVR



## MrNovice (Dec 1, 2005)

I purchased a R15 DirecTV TIVO receiver from Circuit City last weekend. Circuit City was out of the R10 and showed me that the R15 has 20 hours more of recording capability. I quickly learned that the R15 does not have the TIVO menu's and formatting. In some ways the R15 menu's are simpler and some ways they are more cumbersome. I have the option of returning the R15 and getting the R10. Anyone here have opinions between the two? Also, will DirecTV continue to release upgrades for the TIVO format units? Thanks.


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

Dump the R15 and get the R10.
I was so disappointed in the R15 I went out and bought another R10.
The R15 is a loser!
I have 4 DVRs and the R10s are the best.


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## HogarthNH (Dec 28, 2001)

The R15 is a first generation product.
Enough said.

Eventually, it's offspring might be good products.
I'd always go with something reliable and mature.

H


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## Rax (Jun 11, 2002)

Pick the one you want, not the one someone tells you to keep.

Neither has a good menu system. It depends on whether you're averse to change or not.


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## Jon J (Aug 23, 2000)

MrNovice said:


> I purchased a R15 DirecTV TIVO receiver from Circuit City last weekend.


TiVo is in no way associated with this device.


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh boy, another thread to bash a product that we're not supposed to even discuss.

I guess only it's ok to say negative things..

Don't get the R15, it'll download a virus to your TV and explode while you're away on vacation, setting your house on fire and causing you to loose all your season passes.

Get an R10 and enjoy all that it has to offer you. Like being manufacturing discontinued, product end of life and no more service upgrades.

But it's a TiVo so it must be good.


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## Dkerr24 (Oct 29, 2004)

mphare said:


> Oh boy, another thread to bash a product that we're not supposed to even discuss.
> 
> I guess only it's ok to say negative things..
> 
> ...


How is saying a product is "first generation" or "disappointing" considered bashing? "Loser" was a bit harsh, more explanation would be nice.


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## Deegs84 (Dec 14, 2005)

Is anyone else expereincing problems?

I just added the R-15 to my family room and moved my R-10 to the bed room as my wife really likes the GUI. I was quite surprised to find the R-15 less intuitive when compared to the R-10. Here are some of the problems I am having:

-I cannot see what is recording on the second tuner as I do on the R-10.
-Jumping to Live TV is not listed in the maual or indicated on the remote.
-Remote included in the box is different than the one described in the manual. My remote has a "format' button that doesn't appear to function and it does not have a forward advance button but rather a 'go to end' one instead.
-Series Link does not funtion as stated in the Manual.
-AutoTune is apparently not going to be available in the R-15 even though it appears in the manual.
-Audio lags video when going to play from FF or REW.
-cannot see and manage a season pass.
-I cannot search by date and time as indicated in the manual.
I purchased the R-10 because the Directv CSR stated to me that they would have a network upgrade available for the R-10 and the R-15 available by sumer '06 only to be told by a CSR today that that was probably not an option. 

The Directv CSR was not even aware that all of these problems existed when she put me on hold. After waiting on hold for about 10 minutes she came back and stated the her R15 exhibited the same problems and that the manual had "misprints' and that some features listed would never be implemented.

I WILL be returning the R-15 and purchasing another R-10.


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## john-duncan-yoyo (Oct 13, 2004)

mphare said:


> Oh boy, another thread to bash a product that we're not supposed to even discuss.
> 
> I guess only it's ok to say negative things..
> 
> Don't get the R15, it'll download a virus to your TV and explode while you're away on vacation, setting your house on fire and causing you to loose all your season passes.


You forgot the Dogs and Cats living together. If you want an idea how much people dislike this lump of electronic offal read- <http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=65> The do NOT buy an R15 thread has lots of good reasons to go for an R10 or earlier.



mphare said:


> Get an R10 and enjoy all that it has to offer you. Like being manufacturing discontinued, product end of life and no more service upgrades.


Like DTV was providing upgrades as it was.  The R15 is still getting frequent upgrades which means they are still swatting bugs all over the place



mphare said:


> But it's a TiVo so it must be good.


As Koppel said Since the Good Lord saw fit to give us TiVO I have no reason to stay up to watch Nightline.


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## craigo (Apr 6, 2004)

MrNovice said:


> Anyone here have opinions between the two? Also, will DirecTV continue to release upgrades for the TIVO format units? Thanks.


We'll, you've heard the opinions. To answer your second question, no, D* will not release anymore upgrades for the Tivo DVR's. I'm sure many people would like them to, but since they have their own unit now, it just wouldn't benefit them to do so.


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

Dkerr24 said:


> How is saying a product is "first generation" or "disappointing" considered bashing? "Loser" was a bit harsh, more explanation would be nice.


It was really all meant in jest.
I just find it ironic that we were told to not discuss the DVR that shall not be named in this forum.

Except it appears it's fine to do so as long as the comments are negative, or at least not positive.


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## ISWIZ (Aug 29, 2000)

And besides you would miss coming here where the most visited thread is "XM, a big bag of suck". Hmmmmmmmmm :up:


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## Redux (Oct 19, 2004)

mphare said:


> we were told to not discuss the DVR that shall not be named in this forum


I guess I missed that new rule.

Is it possible you are mistaken? Notice how polite that was! I am trying tolerance of ... well ... sub-optimal intellectual performance, not easy for me.

Perhaps you are thinking about a specific, in depth R15 feature discussion thread that was moved out this Tivo forum, at the author's request?

Perhaps you're thinking about a TCF home page reference to an R15 feature discussion location that was removed upon Tivo's objection? That may have been pretty stupid, but not as stupid as your fantasy total ban would have been.

Of course it's possible, at any moment, that Tivo's ongoing inclination to shoot itself in the foot could escalate to make you, retroactively, correct.


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## Stanley Rohner (Jan 18, 2004)

ISWIZ said:


> And besides you would miss coming here where the most visited thread is "XM, a big bag of suck". Hmmmmmmmmm :up:


The "XM, a big bag of suck" title sounds like a very intelligently written and informative thread.


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## DouglasPHill (Feb 10, 2005)

mphare said:


> It was really all meant in jest.
> I just find it ironic that we were told to not discuss the DVR that shall not be named in this forum.


ROFLMAO


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## cmtar (Jan 26, 2005)

I have a R15 and I love it, im glad they dropped tivo. I took out my Dtivo right when I got home from BB. Long live the R15...die tivo die


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

R15 is a fine DVR among the non-tivo class of DVR's. It's great compared to Dish, Cable, etc.

But, TiVo is the best, and it is not a TiVo.

I'm not quite sure why people get all bent out of shape about people here saying this when it is TIVOCommunity.com, a forum for TiVo fanatics!!


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## john-duncan-yoyo (Oct 13, 2004)

cmtar said:


> I have a R15 and I love it, im glad they dropped tivo. I took out my Dtivo right when I got home from BB. Long live the R15...die tivo die


Too bad the 'device which can't be named' can't seem to record shows that peolple ask it to record. Reports have it missing both the finales of Survivor and the Amazing Race. It sounds like DTV han't figured out how to provide guide data reliably yet.


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

john-duncan-yoyo said:


> It sounds like DTV han't figured out how to provide guide data reliably yet.


Uh, I thought DTV provided the guide data for our true blue TiVos


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## john-duncan-yoyo (Oct 13, 2004)

Dale Sorel said:


> Uh, I thought DTV provided the guide data for our true blue TiVos


The data apparently isn't in the format that device which can't be named likes. I'm guessing that there are two different guide streams and TiVO massages one to be compatible with a DTiVO.


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## Markman07 (Jul 18, 2001)

As long as the "device that can't be named" isn't named and also doesn't get any favorable comments directed towards it I am guessing that the un-written policy is that you can talk about this un-named device.


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't know what you're talking about.


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

john-duncan-yoyo said:


> The data apparently isn't in the format that device which can't be named likes. I'm guessing that there are two different guide streams and TiVO massages one to be compatible with a DTiVO.


That's too funny. So DTV is providing the data and their "device that can't be named" doesn't like it. Good luck breaking into the DVR market


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Dale Sorel said:


> That's too funny. So DTV is providing the data and their "device that can't be named" doesn't like it. Good luck breaking into the DVR market


If you get a chance to go over to the other forum and check out the "that device which can't be named", it is like and somewhat worse that what the TiVo was in 1999 or before.


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## ISWIZ (Aug 29, 2000)

Markman07 said:


> As long as the "device that can't be named" isn't named and also doesn't get any favorable comments directed towards it I am guessing that the un-written policy is that you can talk about this un-named device.


The devices that can't be named will get updates. The others, sadly, will not.


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## Rax (Jun 11, 2002)

Dale Sorel said:


> That's too funny. So DTV is providing the data and their "device that can't be named" doesn't like it. Good luck breaking into the DVR market


DirecTV doesn't provide the guide data, Tribune does.


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

tbeckner said:


> If you get a chance to go over to the other forum and check out the "that device which can't be named", it is like and somewhat worse that what the TiVo was in 1999 or before.


And the DTiVo is somewhat worse than the last version of the UTV.

Let's not talk about how far the first version of the DTiVo was behind the first version of the UTV.

But UTV is a dead-end product too.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

mphare said:


> And the DTiVo is somewhat worse than the last version of the UTV.
> 
> Let's not talk about how far the first version of the DTiVo was behind the first version of the UTV.
> 
> But UTV is a dead-end product too.


I wouldn't confuse the fella, the UTV (Ultimate TV - Microsoft DirecTV DVR) has been a truly dead product for many years now and it is almost impossible to buy one. At least the guy has a fighting chance with a DirecTiVo, and the new "NO NAME" product is a real sorry piece of machinery that could take a year or more to clean up. The only real major problem with the DirecTiVo at launch was the dual tuner issue and those issues related to the dual tuner.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ISWIZ said:


> The devices that can't be named will get updates. The others, sadly, will not.


The only thing about this quote is that it could confuse the issue, the DirecTiVos do not need any upgrades to make them useful, but the "NO NAME" product could take a year or more and many upgrades to get to the same level. Again, you will only confuse the fella.


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

Not trying to confuse anyone (except maybe myself).

I was PO'd when I was told the UTV ws not going to be supported anymore. I was even more PO'd when I got my first DTiVo and felt I had stepped back in time. No Folders, No Caller ID, messed up Season Pass (at least compared to UTV's implementation. This one still hacks the wife off.) bulk delete, on and on..

Potential R10 buyers should know they are buying into a dead end alley. And it's not even a secret.

As much the UTV was a better box than the DTiVo, if I'd known it was a dying product, I'd have probably skipped it and gone straight to DTiVo. I'd have probably been happy.

Granted, the R15 has problems, it may take a year to get it fixed.
I've had Verizon's FIOS installed. They will to be offering Video sometime early next year. If DTV sits on the R15 problems they will negating the 'supported v. non-supported' argument, if the Verizon DVR is no more broke than the R15 and Verizon makes me a sweet, sweet deal for Video services, I'll be switching over. I bet I'm not the only one that leaves DTV for better alternatative choices than just Comcast. (And isn't Comcast getting TiVo'd?)

Did I ramble enough?


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

I'm leaving DTV for Comcast as soon as Comcast gets TiVo's


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Awww, heck. I _completely_ understand. I'm now in the same boat you were in.

I was PO'd when I was told the dtivo was not going to be actively supported anymore. I was even more PO'd when I saw my first r15 and felt that they had stepped back in time. No 30sec skip, messed up Season Pass (at least compared to tivo's implementation.), no dual buffers, series and recording limits, no suggestions, the list goes on and on.

Potential R15 buyers should know they are buying into a beta level product. Cripes! It's not even finished yet!

Even though the dtivo is a better box than the r15, we can expect no further improvments. What it'll do today is what it'll do tomorrow. But it's by no means a dying product. Just as with the utv today, as long as I can get parts I can keep mine running as long as they are using mpeg2. If I'd have skipped the dtivo and gone straight to a r15, I'd have probably have dropped the idea of a intergrated dvr alltogether and gone with a standalone or a home brew solution.

Granted, the R15 has problems, it may take a year to get it fixed. It may take more than a year. It may be fixed tomorrow. It may _never_ be fixed. It's hard to tell, but I'm not really confident about directv's abilities and choices lately.
If I could get Verizon's FIOS installed, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. They will to be offering video sometime early next year, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
And you're right on the money. You're not the only one that would consider leaving DTV for better alternatatives.

How was my ramble?


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

There you go..


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## HogarthNH (Dec 28, 2001)

I want a pony.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

The R15 seems to be a no hack machine. No HMO, no 30 second-skip, no Tivoweb and no hard disk upgrades.

Might as well get a cable DVR.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

HogarthNH said:


> I want a pony.


You can get one now, a DEAD PONY at DirecTV, called the R15.


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## mphare (Jul 16, 2004)

Hurry and get the R10, cause they all gonna be gone soon.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

mphare said:


> Granted, the R15 has problems, it may take a year to get it fixed.


You may be surprised on how fast DirecTV is going to attempt to correct "issues" with the R15... Some can be done quickly, others will take a little longer... but I think you will see corrections in less then a year....


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> You may be surprised on how fast DirecTV is going to attempt to correct "issues" with the R15... Some can be done quickly, others will take a little longer... but I think you will see corrections in less then a year....


But could you imagine having a broken product at various levels of disfunction for six months or a year! If you bought a new SONY Receiver or TV at Best Buy and it didn't work correctly, would you just wait for them to contact you to fix it or would you take it back that day or evening? Understand that minor problems can be ignored, but major flaws should not be ignored.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> But could you imagine having a broken product at various levels of disfunction for six months or a year!


Sure I can... I used to have one of the first Dish Network DVRs! :down:


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

goony said:


> Sure I can... I used to have one of the first Dish Network DVRs! :down:


But as we can see, you left DISH for DirecTV. Having a broken DVR, with major problems is not very good marketing. I always looked at DISH over the years, but I always viewed DISH as a second tier player. Although, I believe for the first time in the last decade, they might have just got ONE UP on DirecTV by jumping on what some people say is a better music service, SIRUIS.


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## Dale Sorel (Dec 27, 2001)

Rax said:


> DirecTV doesn't provide the guide data, Tribune does.


OK, so Tribune's data broke the "device that can't be named." Amazing... my five year old 108 hour S1 TiVo gets along with the data just fine


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

I have DirecTV for 10 years. I had the SA Series1 TiVos and then the DirecTiVos and the Series2 TiVos and I find the full featured TiVo Series2 more important than the DirecTV TiVo except for dual tuners. When I can buy a dual tuner TiVo that happens to work with Comcast, and I get a full TiVo service broadband media center, then I guess I'll pull the plug on DirecTV. I'm not buying another thing from DirecTV so that the contract will run out on my last DirecTV basic receiver purchases for use with the SA TiVos I have. 

DirecTV has been selling their NDS boxes in the UK for several years and if you go to the Sky+ forum, you'll see similar complaints and problems to this day that the R15 has. Knowing about all the Sky+ problems for years, I'm not surprised this new R15 can't match TiVo in features that are important and reliability. Didn't DirecTV say that this new DVR would be an improvement for watching live TV? So what does that tell you about it's ability to record and play back shows. It must be a low priority for them. 

By the time any of these R15 problems get fixed, the TiVos will be even better than today. I say stick with what works and expect more out of TiVo in the next few years that DirecTV will never be able to match.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

mtchamp said:


> DirecTV has been selling their NDS boxes in the UK for several years and if you go to the Sky+ forum, you'll see similar complaints and problems to this day that the R15 has. Knowing about all the Sky+ problems for years....


That's my feeling. The Sky+ box from NDS has had a lot of these problems and its been in production for four years now. My brother's had one since day one and he hates it. I know everyone is hopefull NDS will solve the problems but they haven't delivered in the UK. In the UK the Freeview PVR's are likely to be a real problem for Sky+ and Series one TiVo's are still very sought after and considered a better product than Sky +.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

mtchamp said:


> By the time any of these R15 problems get fixed, the TiVos will be even better than today. I say stick with what works and expect more out of TiVo in the next few years that DirecTV will never be able to match.


Depends on your definition of problems..... 
If it is a bug (aka correctable) or is a difference in operation between how the TiVo did it.

I have very good reason to believe that some of the minor (yet annoying things) issues with the R15 should be corrected very soon.

Things like the Double Live Buffer and the 50/100 limits are on the radar screen, but are not easy to fix as they have a chain reaction. (aka increase that limit of 100 todo lists, to 1000.... slows performance down on the system... .oh wait, that is one of TiVo's problem's tooo)..

Yes we can use the Sky+ as a source of comparison, but the DirecTV version is still different.... So what happened with Sky+ version, may or may not translate to DirecTV.

Me personally... The unit has been out two months, already had two software updates. Which shows they can do software updates when they are ready to do so....

Would I have liked everything to work on day one... of course... but if you I hope for that with every product... Then I will be disappointed every time.

Anyway... what I am getting at...... Stay tuned.... There are people who read the forums and make note of our complaints... Those things that can be fixed... will be.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Yes we can use the Sky+ as a source of comparison, but the DirecTV version is still different.... So what happened with Sky+ version, may or may not translate to DirecTV.


True they are different and the Sky + box is more complicated beacuse Sky offer a more advanced product that DirecTV, but the box has been around for four years. There are around 8 million Sky customers in a much harder market place given most of the competition in free unlike here in the USA. Surely the pressure on them to get the product right in those conditions is much higher. If they can't do it there why expect it to be OK here.


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## RS4 (Sep 2, 2001)

Earl, I get a lof of info from your posts and like to read what you have to say. But it occurs to me that it's quite obvious that you're in IT or else an eternal optimist concerning the R15. 

My feeling is that a company having a sister product available for four years and still puts out a product like the new one from Direct with all of the problems we're reading about has some serious management issues.

I'm in IT and love new technology like you. I don't expect perfection with any new product that involves programming. However, I do believe in learning from mistakes and improving the product from previous releases. It doesn't seem like this has happened in this case. 

I'm sure Direct has had a lot of influence with Tivo features and it amazes me that they would even launch a product as inferior as the new one appears to be. I can't imagine people willing to wait a year for some of these things to get fixed.

I beleive the Direct has made some major blunders recently with their lack of HDTV programming, the XM/Music Choice, and the premature launch of a product does not bode well for their reputation.

Please note that I mean no disrespect to you. I just wanted you to know how someone else in IT views the issues.

Thanks.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Yes I am in IT... how could you guess 

"Eternal Optimist" that I am not... I just can't give up on a product after 6 weeks....
I also can't can automatically put the past record of a "parent" companies action toward a similar product, on to this one... (AKA the Sky+ product support, and the R15 product support).

At least not after just 6 weeks.
I guess I just look at things a different way:

HDTV... I would agree that they fell off the ball on that one, but they are trying to correct that, and in the process may end up way ahead of everyone.

XM/MC ... I personally like XM a LOT better then Music Choice, I have never liked Music Choice in the 10 years I have had access to it.... but tha tis just me, but I got DirecTV for the TV, and the Music options where just a nice extra.. IMHO.

Premature Launch of a product... (I assume you refer to the R15). If they would have waited 6 more months... People would have complained that they waited too long... 

Sure, maybe another 2 months... more fixes, maybe....
But then DirecTV would have missed the all important Holiday Season... which is a HUGH $$$ thing in it... (and if anyone thinks that didn't have a part in the release schedule, you are out of your minds). Three co-workers (without proding by me), have purchased DirecTV DVR's... R15s... All three of them are loving them, and have had ZERO problems... Then again, they where never exposed to TiVo or go looking HUNTING for issues.

Is DirecTV perfect... nope... are they going to be perfect... nope... Can they make things better... Sure...

Can we just give this new product a little bit of time.

Last time I check Microsoft is preparing Service Pack #3 for WindowsXP and has release patches nearly weekly/monthly since it's release... These things are complex (DVRs)... They are going to need updates.... 

The question is when are the updates going to come, and what are they going to do...


The TiVo SA software updates are not weekly, they go long periods between updates.
Sure the DirecTV TiVo updates are very far apart.... 

But maybe things will change with this one... Different architecture, it just might allow for segments to be updated and not require an entire reload... Only time will tell.


Actually... I would be surprised if DirecTV had ANY influence on TiVo features... They certainly had invluences on what TiVo features where available on the Comboboxes, but I haven't seen a feature on a DTV box, that didn't first appear on an SA box (with the exception of Dual Tuners).... I have very little knowledge of what the "actually" relationship was between DTV and TiVo (the companies), but from what I gather here... It was a typical software license type arrangement... either way....

If we go 12 months with out an update to the R15.. that wouldn't be good.
But what if we get an update 2 weeks from now.... So the 3rd update since the time my box turned on... Will people still say they are not paying attention to the R15 and trying not to fix things?

BTW: no disrespect taken... everyone has valid points... Just lately, I have tried to play a role in keeping things even and in perspective... There are a lot of GOOD things that where added to the R15 that people have clammered about for years that they wanted on the TiVos. (Disk Space, Single Line Guide, Guide Record Options, Picture in Guide, RF --even though it is not on yet, Conflic Management, ect...)... but it is the few "problems" that people bring up over and over and over and over... (and I am not trying to discount them at all... some of them are major issues)....

Oh well.. time to get off the soapbox.


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## Kapeman (Oct 1, 2003)

Well, you can say what you want about the E* DVRs, but they have gotten a lot better in the past couple of years. They have even added most of the features that the DTivo had over them, plus they have added things like MRV over coax.


I'm just sayin'...




This is from a former E* customer that had a pretty decent experience with a 501, but was blown away by the improvement of the Dtivo. Sadly the DTivo has stood still while the rest of the world has moved on.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Those things that can be fixed... will be.


But that could be the rub, what if it isn't fixable. Another owner of the "NO NAME" box pointed out that the unit was still in Beta, but is that early Beta or late Beta.

I believe that if they delayed the original release for three months to take care of some show stoppers and the same developers are doing this box that did the Sky+ box, then you might expect the same quality issues. Long term, I would say that all bets are off and I believe it would be better to expect less than perfection and believe that the "NO NAME" box will likely not improve a lot over the short haul. Which also means that "BUYER BEWARE" should be the word for any new Sky+ developed boxes that are released in the US by DirecTV.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Yes I am in IT... how could you guess
> 
> "Eternal Optimist" that I am not... I just can't give up on a product after 6 weeks....
> I also can't can automatically put the past record of a "parent" companies action toward a similar product, on to this one... (AKA the Sky+ product support, and the R15 product support).
> ...


I have been in IT for 33 years, a majority in software development as a developer, and one of the best predictors of future performance is past performance, especially when it is a similar product.

You talked about updates, these updates could be minor in nature and I know that one of those updates was downloaded the week of release, so it was already in the works. The biggest problem with the development for this product is that it has been in been development for well over a year with a starting base of the original Sky+ products and that something as basic as the dual buffers was not included in the basic feature set. It is likely that the dual buffer change alone is a major change to the basic operation of the unit and if they are attempting to add this feature in, I very likely see major development problems for this box over the next year.

This box was not a good start for DirecTV, and based upon a review of the reported problems on the other forum, your friends have had problems with the box, it's just that they haven't realized that they have had a problem.

*And I ask, why in GOD's NAME would you recommend a new unproven complex product from a source that has built junk in the past to your FRIENDS?*


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

The original poster has two DirecTv DVR choices today, but not for long. An obsolete, end of lifed product that's hardly perfect or a brand new one that clearly still needs some bugs worked out.

At least with the R15 I have some hope that it will get better over time. The R10 you just have to live with until it breaks with no hope of improvement.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> The original poster has two DirecTv DVR choices today, but not for long. An obsolete, end of lifed product that's hardly perfect or a brand new one that clearly still needs some bugs worked out.
> 
> At least with the R15 I have some hope that it will get better over time. The R10 you just have to live with until it breaks with no hope of improvement.


Only one major difference, you have no real idea that the Sky+ box "R15", will actually improve enough over time to meet the current level of the "R10". The Sky+ developers are a known quantity, and they have always developed boxes that after many years of updates, have been less than reliable. At least with an "R10" you get a box that works.

And like I said above, _"I have been in IT for 33 years, a majority in software development as a developer, and one of the best predictors of future performance is past performance, especially when it is a similar product."_


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> *And I ask, why in GOD's NAME would you recommend a new unproven complex product from a source that has built junk in the past to your FRIENDS?*


Because in all honesty... IMHO, as someone who enjoys playing with cutting edge technology.... the R15's edge, has been very blunt... It still cuts, but it is not as sharp as other ones.

I personally don't find the R15 that bad... I really don't... Sure I like things that TiVo does... but in general, the "problems" that people have experienced the R15 haven't bit me that bad. The R15 is actually going to move from the lab up to my bedroom this weekend.

As for the recommendations.... they didn't ask, and I didn't know they where getting the DVRs.... They just ordedered them and got them, and hence got R15s.

As for my friends "having" problems. that is the thing... Some of the "problems" are interpretations of featuers (such as the live dual buffers... Those who are not used to it on the TiVo would have NO idea that it was there, and would just get used to using it the R15 way... vs the way we got used to it with the TiVo product).

I am sure most of them haven't run into the 50sp/100todo problem yet, but they will... and that is a bug that I am 110% confident that DirecTV knows about and will fix when they have a viable solution.

Am I moving the R15 to my main viewing area... nope (primarily because of the lack of HD, and thus I will leave the SD and HD DTivos there), but i am going to move it up the bedroom, where it will be put to a daily use factor.

6-7 weeks after the public release of the product.... "Officialy" it can't be in Beta if people are paying for it not knowingly participating in a Beta program. (you can use the same argument for Microsoft Products).

All I am saying is give the product some time. If it ultimately fails... it fails. But if DirecTV can improve on the problems that their "sister" company had, and can turn around and improve on the product.....

Ultimately this is going to turn into the same argument you get with XBOX and PS/2... Some people are so firmly set on one side of the fence, nothing on the other can be right. Some people sit a little closer, but still on once side. Others, firmly plant their butts right on the fence and lean towards which ever works the best for them, if not both....

There is no right or wrong answer.... But condemming a product 6 weeks later? Come-on.... we still have auto-recalls for the smallest things... And "the world" has been building cars for more then 60 years...


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> And like I said above, _"I have been in IT for 33 years, a majority in software development as a developer, and one of the best predictors of future performance is past performance, especially when it is a similar product."_


I have been only paid as a developer for 9 years now... been doing this for about 15 or so...

In the EXACT situation I am in right now at work, played like the one above... Past Performance dictates the future performance.... then me and my current co-workers are totally screwed.

For the past 10 years, on this particular client... the product that "MY" company has built is the biggest pile of garbage. I am part of an effort right now, to seriously start to correct the wrongs and get things back to a place where the client can trust us and the product is worth the money they are paying....

If they would forever judge us on what they where given before, and never on what we deliver today and what we deliver tomorrow.... Then "we" as a company, and "me" as project manager/developer are just spinning our wheels with no hope of improvements.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> I have been only paid as a developer for 9 years now... been doing this for about 15 or so...
> 
> In the EXACT situation I am in right now at work, played like the one above... Past Performance dictates the future performance.... then me and my current co-workers are totally screwed.
> 
> ...


A company can change, but the change has to be directed from the TOP DOWN and cannot be made just by a couple of workers. Building complex software is both a ART FORM and a SCIENCE, and takes TEAM WORK, but ultimately higher management has to support the time and cost involved to complete a usable product. And it still is true in a majority of cases, that _"one of the best predictors of future performance is past performance, especially when it is a similar product"_.

I assume that if you are a software developer, especially a development manager, you had to read the "The Mythical Man-Month" book.

The Mythical Man-Month

Then you realize the problems that the Sky+ "R15" developers are undergoing, which takes me back to DirecTV and past performance, and is a reason I would not jump on a brand new DVR, especially from a company with a shabby past and a company like DirecTV which is appears to be ran by some very INSANE people today, who are out of touch with their long-term high revenue customers.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

nhaigh said:


> True they are different and the Sky + box is more complicated beacuse Sky offer a more advanced product that DirecTV, but the box has been around for four years. There are around 8 million Sky customers in a much harder market place given most of the competition in free unlike here in the USA. Surely the pressure on them to get the product right in those conditions is much higher. If they can't do it there why expect it to be OK here.


_*ebonovic*_ --- I believe that mhaigh has made a very valid point.

The Sky + box developers have shown that they constantly underperformed and there is no real reason that we know of today, that would lead us to expect anything else with the DirecTV DVR. I know that I have said it many times before, but currently there is no reason for us to expect that the DirecTV DVR would and could be any better than the multi-year development that has gone into the current TiVo devices. And with the described failures (as reported on the other forum and yes I do read beyond this forum) that are occurring and the lack of same level functional features on this device, why would anyone in their right mind invest in a DirecTV DVR?

My investment in a SONY Betamax in 1976 was different, because there was no competing product on the market. It was the only Video recording device in existence, although within a couple of years, the RCA vinyl disc video recorder (which only lasted less than one year) and then the JVC/PANASONIC VHS records came out.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> The original poster has two DirecTv DVR choices today, but not for long. An obsolete, end of lifed product that's hardly perfect or a brand new one that clearly still needs some bugs worked out.


I'm intrigued by your suggestion that the current DTivos are "hardly perfect"... do you have it on good authority that the R15 is on a path to perfection?



HiDefGator said:


> At least with the R15 I have some hope that it will get better over time.


To my mind, that means that they will approach the features and stability of the current S2 DTivos. For some, a hackable box is a trump card that will keep them as DTivo owners unless the R15's gain some really irresistable features.

I keep plodding along on Win2K (obsolete, end-of-life, hardly perfect) because it meets my needs and is stable- I don't run to donate $$ to Micro$oft and buy WinXP because "I have some hope that it will get better over time".

I'll wait for a few years and will (maybe) jump to the R15's successor - heck, it might even make breakfeast for me in the morning.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

HiDefGator said:


> At least with the R15 I have some hope that it will get better over time.


There is one major mistake in this statement, the R15 is in someways about the same level as TiVo was in 1999, and the Sky+ developers have been known to underperform over a multi-year time frame. If you are lucky, the 'R15" might reach the same level as the current "R10" in two or three years, and since DirecTV believes that all DVRs only have a three year lifespan, the "R15" will be reaching "END OF LIFE" at the same time it reaches the same stability level and feature set mix as the current DirecTiVo AKA "R10", so why would anyone in their right mind buy into that device.


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

I read these posts and I get even more disgusted with DirecTV. I used to be so proud to be a DirecTV customer. The new R15 DVR is lacking important PVR features and is not a reliable device for recording and playback of shows as TiVo.

I should think DirecTV knew how those boxes would perform based on experience with NDS in the UK and decided it was good business to install them in customers homes anyway. Now we see for sure that DirecTV didn't allow any more improvements to the DirecTV TiVo service, that I as a DirecTV customer extremely enjoy, so they can supply a box built by one of their own companies, NDS.

I can't imagine suggesting anyone switch to DirecTV and lock themselves into possibly a 2 year contract and get stuck with a SKY+ plus type of junk DVR compared to what they could have had from TiVo. DirecTV must be insane? They are going to lose customers over this who will chase the full feature TiVo experience elsewhere.

I don't get it. Just over the summer when the SKY+ software in the UK was updated, a whole new bag of problems popped up. They fix one thing and 2 more problems pop up. The UK forum members are thrilled if their NDS DVR's work for a few weeks without rebooting or when they come home after a weekend away and find their shows were recorded properly. A DVR should not cause you anxiety. Give me a break. There is no excuse for treating customers this way. I tell people to get a SA TiVo and look forward to a Dual Tuner CC TiVo or a new TiVo as supplied by Comcast.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

mtchamp said:


> There is no excuse for treating customers this way. I tell people to get a SA TiVo and look forward to a Dual Tuner CC TiVo or a new TiVo as supplied by Comcast.


I totally agree with you.

I have been a DirecTV customer going on 12 years now, and I believe that DirecTV has finally and totally lost touch with their long-term high revenue customer base. Their recent decisions have forced me to currently buy into cable as an add-on to replace what I have lost and what I have found after being away for almost 12 years is that cable has almost caught up with DirecTV and in some ways has already pulled ahead, and could pull further ahead this year.

My cable company now offers the same number of channels (that I actually watch) and the same quality, and with the bundling of the premium service OnDemand services the cable company has pulled ahead. All that I am waiting for is the dual-tuner HD capable multi-stream cable card based TiVo, which should be out by the 3rd or 4th quarter of 2006, and with the FREE integration of the premium channel OnDemand (HBO only, in my case), I will likely take hard long look at the situation and make a decision to stay with DirecTV or return fully to cable. It actually has been a great ride for most of those 11+ years with DirecTV, but these last few years, DirecTV has been going down hill. Some of the reasons are:


DirecTV dumped TiVo for their own hair brained DVR
DirecTV never released MRV (HMO) for the DirecTiVos (although I have it on all three of my units, no help from DirecTV)
DirecTV dumped MUSIC CHOICE (uninterrupted music) for XM RADIO (chatter)
DirecTV cannot and never will offer my local TV stations
DirecTV cannot compete with wired true OnDemand video (the new DirecTV and TiVo of 2006) [Note: The VOD on the new DirecTV DVR is nothing more than expanded showcases (prerecorded video))
DirecTV in 2006 has become the cable company of 1994, and in some ways they are worst. I will stick with DirecTV until the new CC TiVo has been released, but then all bets are off.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

mtchamp said:


> I should think DirecTV knew how those boxes would perform based on experience with NDS in the UK and decided it was good business to install them in customers homes anyway. Now we see for sure that DirecTV didn't allow any more improvements to the DirecTV TiVo service, that I as a DirecTV customer extremely enjoy, so they can supply a box built by one of their own companies, NDS.


Normally I would support ebonovic's position whole heartedly, give the new box a chance, but here we have tangeable evidence that News International is happy with some disatisfied customers and average product provided it reflects well on the Balance Sheet. No one disputes that this makes sense finacially for DirecTV - they have to progress the NDS platform anyway for the UK so use it here in the USA as well. Much more cost effective than suporting the TiVo platform.

I just don't think it will get beyond an OK DVR. Once reasonable stability is achieved measured financialy as a percentage returned rather than by customer satisfaction then I suspect the bug fix updates will stop and their focus will move to the next feature they need to introduce - maybe mpeg4 support or HD.

Of course we could see them drop the bug fixing to focus on mpeg4 or HD anyway because they will have a lot of presure to compete with HDTV offerings and HD PVR from all the other vendors. They may well end up having to bring product to market at the expense of existing not so good product quality to keep aligned with the competition.

DirecTV seem to want to drive short term revenue from the bottom line rather than growth and are happy for the DVR technology to fall behind the competition over the next few years.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

nhaigh said:


> Normally I would support ebonovic's position whole heartedly give the new box a chance, but here we have tangible evidence that News Corp is happy with some dissatisfied customers and average product provided it reflects well on the Balance Sheet. No one disputes that this makes sense financially for DirecTV - they have to progress the NDS platform anyway for the UK, so why not use it here in the USA as well. This is much more cost effective than supporting the TiVo platform.


And I agree with you, News Corp seems to be happy with short-term affects on their financials, not the long-term affects on their high revenue customer base. In other words, the standard corporate "TO HELL WITH THE CUSTOMER" and "WHO CARES, NEXT QUARTERS FINANCIALS IS ALL THAT MATTERS" concerns. And this type of response will likely spell doom for DirecTV in the long run (in fact, this post will be long gone, before this attitude causes big problems) and this should be making Charlie happy over at the Dish Network.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> And this type of response will likely spell doom for DirecTV in the long run (in fact, this post will be long gone, before this attitude causes big problems) and this should be making Charlie happy over at the Dish Network.


I don't think it will be the doom of DirecTV, afterall in the UK Sky are building Market share even against the no cost competition. Sky's route was through programing more than technology - I expect we'll see DirecTV taking more than just the technology out of the UK. Sky have to produce their own programming in order to keep the license and a lot of this is showing up in the US allready. A load of what is shown on Fox's Reality TV channel are Sky productions. Expect more programming and less leading edge technology. Expect them to keep the costs down.


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## DTV TiVo Dealer (Nov 13, 2002)

nhaigh said:


> I don't think it will be the doom of DirecTV, afterall in the UK Sky are building Market share even against the no cost competition. Sky's route was through programing more than technology - I expect we'll see DirecTV taking more than just the technology out of the UK. Sky have to produce their own programming in order to keep the license and a lot of this is showing up in the US allready. A load of what is shown on Fox's Reality TV channel are Sky productions. Expect more programming and less leading edge technology. Expect them to keep the costs down.


I know DIRECTV is working very hard on fixing the bugs and adding more features for the R15. And, you are correct that we will see a lot of original programming from DIRECTV as well as the launch of more LIL and the promised 150 national HD channels. DIRECTV just invested in a state of the art HDTV production studio and is talking to major writes and producers to develop and deliver block buster HD original programming.

Where we disagree is on technology as we will all be enjoying HMC and new DVR and interactive features in the not so distant future. Let's not forget that News Corp. converted two very large capacity satellites from DIRECWAY to deliver a tremendous quantity of HD content.

DIRECTV has very aggressive plans for advanced technology and HD programming.

-Robert


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> DIRECTV just invested in a state of the art HDTV production studio and is talking to major writes and producers to develop and deliver block buster HD original programming.
> 
> -Robert


Robert,

Do you actually believe that DirecTV could compete with HBO, the networks, or the hollywood studios (for the independents, USA, and TNT) for original programming? Do you realize that business is so far removed from what News Corp (except maybe Fox) does worldwide, and that even the pros like Dreamworks can make big mistakes that can end up costing them their entire business (sale of Dreamworks, ends the dream (NYTimes)). If I had stock in News Corp, which I do not, and I had heard that they where going to waste their money on original programming for DirecTV only feeds, I would be unloading their stock righ now. And that has to be the stupidest thing that I heard they have done, agreed what can they do, DirecTV is boxed into a corner, and this appears to be a desperate measure. Look how many years it took Fox to come up with 24, Prison Break, and House MD. And I know that News Corp is not going to caniblize Fox for DirecTV, especially since Murdoch has already seen what OnDemand video and a wired network would likely do to DirecTV. The platform does not have the long-term bandwidth to compete with a wired GPON Fiber based Video OnDemand driven system, and there is no way that DirecTV can compete with the hollywood studios, HBO, and the networks for original content.

Desperate people do desperate things on a sinking ship, when there are few options.


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## DTV TiVo Dealer (Nov 13, 2002)

tbeckner said:


> Robert,
> 
> Do you actually believe that DirecTV could compete with HBO, the networks, or the hollywood studios (for the independents, USA, and TNT) for original programming? Do you realize that business is so far removed from what News Corp (except maybe Fox) does worldwide, and that even the pros like Dreamworks can make big mistakes that can end up costing them their entire business (sale of Dreamworks, ends the dream (NYTimes)). If I had stock in News Corp, which I do not, and I had heard that they where going to waste their money on original programming, I would be completely unloading their stock. Now that is what I call a truly stupid move. Look how many years it took Fox to come up with 24, Prison Break, and House MD. And I know that News Corp is not going to caniblize Fox for DirecTV, especially since Murdoch has already seen what OnDemand video and a wired network would likely do to DirecTV. The platform does not have the long-term bandwidth to compete with a wired GPON Fiber based Video OnDemand driven system, and there is no way that DirecTV can compete with the hollywood studios, HBO, and the networks for original content.


Time will tell. I know DIRECTV is working with the best writers and producers on developing original content. DIRECTV feels that if they have original content they can be more competitive against cable.

I just read a interesting thread on dbstalk, the sister site of TCF, I would recommend taking a look http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=49328

-Robert


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> Time will tell. I know DIRECTV is working with the best writers and producers on developing original content. DIRECTV feels that if they have original content they can be more competitive against cable.
> 
> I just read a interesting thread on dbstalk, the sister site of TCF, I would recommend taking a look http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=49328
> 
> -Robert


The link you included does not take me to any specific topic about original programming, but then again I do not believe that DirecTV can create qualtity programming for such a limited customer base, against hollywood, the networks (which includes Fox), and companies like HBO. And in addition, there really are only a few really talented writers and directors (limited numbers) in the world, and DirecTV would have to canabilize so much of their revenue stream to produce such content for such a limited customer base, that I think it is a very foolish gamble and one that I would not like to buy into, by paying DirecTV more money. In fact, this could just be an additional reason why I might jump ship in the next year after being on DirecTV for almost 12 years and having spent between $12,000 and $15,000 or more on DirecTV services. Ultimately OnDemand and FTTP/FTTH and IPTV and almost unlimited OnDemand Video will kill one-way video feeds, original content or not. Currently I have FTTC and my local cable company will likely expand that to FTTP/FTTH in the next couple of years, and with a bundled Internet, VOIP (phone), and IPTV (or like now bundled OnDemand), DirecTV has very little wiggle room to expand their customer base. In fact, as of the last report to the SEC, DirecTV subscriber growth has slowed down and cable declines have slowed down. It looks like the effect that I thought would not happen for many years is already starting to happen. And in addition, I made my decision to go with DirecTV in 1994 and it was a great decision, and now I see that a decision to go back to what I view as the next great thing, OnDemand and a dual-tuner Multi-Stream Cable Card HD Capable Tivo on cable is the next DirecTV and TiVo of 2006. Of course, only time will tell, but this my take on the future. By the way, I just added cable back (I still have DirecTV), and to tell you the truth they have come a long way in the last 11+ years. And OnDemand is a real HOOT.

Additional Edit:

There is no doubt that OnDemand is the killer application for cable, and that DirecTV cannot really duplicate that capability unless they blocked out the SUN with Satellites, and setup all users with two-way feeds. The VOD on the new DirecTV DVR is nothing more than expanded showcases and cannot compete with true two-way feed OnDemand. In fact, it was announced yesterday that Verizon is expanding their current 1,500 hours of OnDemand content to 7,000 hours of online fulltime OnDemand content and really that is just the start of the OnDemand content wars. You tell me how DirecTV can compete against that with any success. And this is just the start of the huge changes coming in the future. There was a commercial a year ago or so, where someone is checking into a small motel in the middle of nowhere, and the clerk is telling the customer that they will access to all of the video programming ever created in history anytime they want to view in their room. I can see that vision, and that vision means that a one-way feed system like DirecTV really does not have a chance to succeed in that world. Agreed it is not going to happen tomorrow, but with Verizon just now adding to their OnDemand library what is equivalent to 3,500 movies, that is a real start toward that very interesting world. Funny thing, I was waving my arms two years ago about OnDemand and very people seemed to understand. Bandwidth is the key, and with GPON (which means 1 and 10 Gigabit Passive Optical Networks (GPON)) are starting to come online, and the Japanese have sucessfully tested terabit fiber. Verizon is of course spreading FiOS across the US, and out here in the west, NOANET has an almost unlimited amount of DARK FIBER (laid 5 years or more ago), just waiting for a user. Some of the necessary bandwidth could be sooner than what most people expect. The long-tern advantage also is in the two-way functionality, which extends the bandwidth advantage, because not only can video be feed in at least one direction, but two-way functionality also opens the door to additional applications like VOIP and of course the Internet. Ten years ago and even five years ago, I did not see this coming, but today it is like a freight train speeding through a sleepy little country town, and I am standing at the tracks.

In addition, out here in the west, PUDs (Public Utility Districts/Electric Companies), have been laying Fiber To The Home (FTTP/FTTH) like crazy, and I believe that most of these people over the next decade would jump for bundled services to eliminate multiple bills and save money and with IPTV available, they would have the best of the video delivery world.


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## DTV TiVo Dealer (Nov 13, 2002)

I added my recommendation to take a look at the thread as it does directly pertain to this thread and did not think I needed to make another post. 

Personally, I don't see any big advantage of video on demand if you have a DVR. I don't have to pay any extra on-demand monthly fees and my favorite shows are waiting for me to view on my time. The all-in-one DVR records my favorite regular programming and finds things I like that I would not normally find on my own. 

When cable companies drop channels my new DIRECTV customer subscriber acquisitions in that area go up significantly, which proves that programming is one of the most important aspects of what we are all looking for in our multi-channel provider. Good original programming would get DIRECTV increased market share. The question is will the investment yield the desired returns. 

I hope you dont leave DIRECTV, but if you do and DIRECTVs expansion in technology, HD channels and new original programming interest you, coming back would always be an option.

-Robert


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I added my recommendation to take a look at the thread as it does directly pertain to this thread and did not think I needed to make another post.
> 
> Personally, I don't see any big advantage of video on demand if you have a DVR. I don't have to pay any extra on-demand monthly fees and my favorite shows are waiting for me to view on my time. The all-in-one DVR records my favorite regular programming and finds things I like that I would not normally find on my own.
> 
> ...


Actually, if you could have a DVR and could record everything that has ever been on and keep all of those recordings then OnDemand would not be an advantage, but then again NOBODY has that big of DVR.

In addition, with my cable company, when I subscribe to HBO, I get all of the OnDemand content bundled into the $14 cost, so I do have to pay any additional fees.

In the future I can see some OnDemand content being sold on a subscription basis like the HBO OnDemand that I now have access to, and as Fiber and IPTV expand and other companies get into the OnDemand world including the studios, networks, and others, I can see access expanding way beyond the 7,000 hours that Verizon will start offering later this month.

One last thing, so far HD has been a real bust for almost everyone involved, including DirecTV subscribers. And the actual amount of true HD content is still very low. Some of the content being fed as HD content is actually SD upconverted video and at this point most HD users have no idea that is happening. I do not plan on jumping on the HD wagon until 2009 or after. By then the HD service should have expanded to include most but still not all content and the cost of HD equipment and content should have reached reasonable levels (in other words, everyone else has paid for the development). But in addition, fiber and IPTV and TiVo or another company based Media Server should be the standard DVR based service.

At this point, I have no current plans to leave DirecTV, but I can see the near term future of the video feed service and everyday it appears that DirecTV is dropping out of the picture.

Like I said before, DirecTV was the near term future in 1994 and they lasted for more than a decade, but with the advancement of technology they are starting to fade and the new future appears to be Internet, VOIP, and IPTV with an almost unlimited number of OnDemand video feed sources, in both a subscription and PPV based service application. The new DirecTV of 1994 and TiVo of 2000, now appears to be video OnDemand and media servers and clients, and IPTV. In fact, I actually believe that the networks will likely fade into news sources, and the content providers will market their content directly bypassing the networks, in either of the two forms.

Additional Edit:

The future is very exciting and the expansion is almost limitless in a wired world.

I am actually excited to see the future of the video delivery service expanding in the way it is. If people think that Warner Bros, Disney, ABC, NBC, CBS, and some of the other studios offering PPV OnDemand video services for the iPOD, and limited VOD on DirecTV are exciting now, just wait, there should be a HUGE EXPLOSION in OnDemand Video services on both the Internet and cable this next year and this is just the START. (Even DirecTV realizes that VOD is huge, that is why they named the "NOW Showing" on the new DirecTV DVR "My VOD.) But then again, it is a very limited prerecorded feed and will likely be very limited to a few network shows, PPV movies, and specials, because that is where the money is.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Hmm... not even sure what to respond too....

Can we at least agree to disagree?....

I am going to step out of this thread.... 
Not because I don't like the chatter, I just don't have much more to offer to it... as I am in the boat of waiting a little longer to see what happens. 

I have been a very satisfied customer of DirecTV for nearly 10 years now.
Comcast (at least in my area), is a bahemoth (sp?) that needs a butt kicking from somewhere as the area is going through their 4th price hike in 5 years.

Their DVR has similar problems as all the other DVRs out there....

There is one thing important to remember (IMHO) when coparing to what Sky+ and DirecTV... Different rules (both legal and market place influenced) dictate different actions.... DirecTV was and still is for the most part the company it always was. Sure there is a new "parent" organization.... And yes, they are very focused on the $$$ as ultimately that is what the Investors in the company are intrested in.... Customer revenue is one thing, but the money from other sources is just as important to what DirecTV wants to do.

I do truely understand all of your arguments... I really do... I guess I am more of an optimist, or I just haven't been burn't or my expectations have not been as high as others, thus I wasn't as disappointed at others...

Hopefully in the years I have been hear I have shown that when I have found something wrong with the products, I have said it... and haven't hidden it.. (even when it comes to the R15).... So maybe to a degree fan boyish, as I still have issues with Comcast for a bunch of reasons... And haven't even come close to edge yet with DirecTV... but, at least for this specific product and case....

My personal Jury is still out and will be for at least a while longer.

I personally can care less about OnDemand... So long as it is still content I can get else where... Replays of shows I could have (should have) caught earlier on with the DVR is a nice thing to have... but if OnDemand starts giving us stuff we can't get else where... now that would be cool.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> I personally can care less about OnDemand... So long as it is still content I can get else where... *Replays of shows I could have (should have) caught earlier on with the DVR is a nice thing to have*... but if OnDemand starts giving us stuff we can't get else where... now that would be cool.


Actually I am using it see the first two years of "The Sopranos", which I have never seen and to watch all five years before the start of the sixth year in March. In addition, I missed the current Rome series and a lot of HBO original movies over the past five to six years, I didn't subscribe except when "The Sopranos" where on. I could spend the next couple of years just watching all of the quality HBO shows that I have missed over the years, and still not see the current shows that are on. OnDemand will have many future uses, most people still view it as a instant PPV, but OnDemand is far beyond that. It will turn into the endless library of video and you could never afford to build or record, but will now have access to. If you just think of it in the form of a DVR you are missing the real reason for video OnDemand. Actually a DVR will become the future VCR, except for current short-term video sources, and news. Ultimately you will use Video OnDemand, a DVR, and a little bit of TV for news and breaking news. I really believe that the networks as we know them today could disappear or change into CNNs, there is a possibility they could still act as middle men marketing video feeds.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

tbeckner said:


> And this type of response will likely spell doom for DirecTV in the long run (in fact, this post will be long gone, before this attitude causes big problems) and this should be making Charlie happy over at the Dish Network.


Why do people still think that Charlie is some sort of "savior", or that he's any better than anyone else?

Didn't Dish produce some pretty crappy DVRs a few years ago? And didn't they charge quite a bit of money for them? How's that for building goodwill over the "long run"?


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> Why do people still think that Charlie is some sort of "savior", or that he's any better than anyone else?
> 
> Didn't Dish produce some pretty crappy DVRs a few years ago? And didn't they charge quite a bit of money for them? How's that for building goodwill over the "long run"?


Your assumption was way out of context. Who said that "Charlie" at Dish was a great guy? All that I said was that some of the current decisions that DirecTV is making, should make Charlie happy. If your direct competitor was making decisions that could possibility increase your market share, wouldn't you be happy, even if it was only by a small margin.

You might look at my post and see if you can find the "Charlie is a Great Guy" remark in my post. If you can find it, please highlight it. 

Maybe your background includes some "DISH NETWORK" pain!


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> There is one thing important to remember (IMHO) when coparing to what Sky+ and DirecTV... Different rules (both legal and market place influenced) dictate different actions.... .


NDS have plenty of experience in differing market places. The US market it just their latest. The key component of the PVR is the XTV middleware This product is no that new.

http://www.nds.com/personal_tv/personal_tv.html

Quote: NDS has already achieved significant success and industry recognition in deploying XTVthe first fully integrated PVRon Sky digital's platform. According to BSkyB, as of June 2005, more than 880,000 subscribers enjoy Sky+ PVR services. XTV is also successfully deployed on the Sky Latin America platform in Brazil & Mexico, Australia's FOXTEL, and both HOT and YES in Israel. During 2005-2006, XTV will begin powering the PVR offerings of other leading operators including US-based DIRECTV, Sky New Zealand, and Scandinavia's VIASAT.

Also XTV2go makes interesting reading for those who want to know whats comming next.


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## SpacemanSpiff (Jan 31, 2004)

From what I read on the Sky boards, I guess it comes down to what the word "enjoy" means.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

nhaigh said:


> But slightly more than 880,000 subscribers enjoy Sky+ PVR


But that is a drop in the bucket compared to the number of DVR/PVR devices in the US alone, almost none of which are Sky+ devices.

Plus as SpacemanSpiff points out above and a lot of the users on this forum already know, *"From what I read on the Sky boards, I guess it comes down to what the word "enjoy" means." *


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## GaryGnu (Jan 22, 2003)

tbeckner said:


> DirecTV in 2006 has become the cable company of 1994, and in some ways they are worst. I will stick with DirecTV until the new CC TiVo has been released, but then all bets are off.


I don't know how you can possibly compare DirecTV to cable companies. For example, I recently moved. I have limited basic cable to keep down the price of Comcast internet (can't get DSL here). Comcast did not even have to come to my house, yet they charged me like $38 to transfer my service.

DirecTV, OTOH, sent a guy out to my new house for a whole day, who ran 2 lines to 4 rooms in my house, gave me an upgraded dish, and several hundered feet more cable that I was supposed to get. I was also only supposed to get 2 lines in 2 rooms. He did all of it for free.

And in customer service and price, there is no comparison. DirecTV blows them away. So while I am upset at DirecTV for giving Tivo the boot, I am not anywhere near ready to run back to Comcast.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

tbeckner said:


> Your assumption was way out of context. Who said that "Charlie" at Dish was a great guy? All that I said was that some of the current decisions that DirecTV is making, should make Charlie happy. If your direct competitor was making decisions that could possibility increase your market share, wouldn't you be happy, even if it was only by a small margin.
> 
> You might look at my post and see if you can find the "Charlie is a Great Guy" remark in my post. If you can find it, please highlight it.
> 
> Maybe your background includes some "DISH NETWORK" pain!


You're right. I misinterpreted your remarks.

I actually only *wish* Charlie was a great guy and had the smarts to bury the hatchet with TiVo and work with them on a new DVR for Dish. What a great poke in the eye at DirecTV that would be. 

I actually have DirectTV pain in my recent background. I just got done buying two R10 receivers. One to replace a flaky SAT-T60, one more to replace a perfectly good SAT-T60 that will now become a spare. Because otherwise I'd be in real trouble if I lost a SAT-T60 after DirecTV completely transitioned away from TiVo. Phooey. $200 out of pocket, and a two year commitment. (Maybe I'll actually get my rebate.) And the peanut remote sucks compared to the Sony.


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## nhaigh (Jul 16, 2001)

GaryGnu said:


> And in customer service and price, there is no comparison. DirecTV blows them away. So while I am upset at DirecTV for giving Tivo the boot, I am not anywhere near ready to run back to Comcast.


It all depends on where you are. Here my experience of DirecTV servce has been dreadfull because the local installers are just awfull. With cable I never had any customer service issues. Quality wise there is no difference between Cable and DirecTV - both are digital. I know some people have bad cable operators, but here cable is as good if not better then DTV, and soon there will be dual tuner HD TiVo's and I will be a cable customer again.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

GaryGnu said:


> I don't know how you can possibly compare DirecTV to cable companies. For example, I recently moved. I have limited basic cable to keep down the price of Comcast internet (can't get DSL here). Comcast did not even have to come to my house, yet they charged me like $38 to transfer my service.
> 
> DirecTV, OTOH, sent a guy out to my new house for a whole day, who ran 2 lines to 4 rooms in my house, gave me an upgraded dish, and several hundered feet more cable that I was supposed to get. I was also only supposed to get 2 lines in 2 rooms. He did all of it for free.
> 
> And in customer service and price, there is no comparison. DirecTV blows them away. So while I am upset at DirecTV for giving Tivo the boot, I am not anywhere near ready to run back to Comcast.


_*Everyone's mileage may vary.*_

Some people have bad cable companies, some have great cable companies. Small cbale companies can have an advantage, if the cable company is ran well and has been an industry leader. My local cable company fits into the last category, it has been RAN WELL and has been an INDUSTRY LEADER.

I have never had to deal with COMCAST, but based upon what I have read about its dealings, it appears to a run of the mill cable company, neither the worst but then again not the best.

Again, everyone's mileage will vary, and I am just happy that I have a good choice to fall back to as the video delivery industry under goes a major revolution. DirecTV was better 11 almost 12 years ago, but has been going downhill the past five years. GM wanted to unload DirecTV and Murdoch wanted to buy it and from that point on DirecTV has never been the same.

Although the DirecTV service always varied as GM went under stress.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> And the peanut remote sucks compared to the Sony.


That is why I programmed my Sony RM-VL900's learning remotes to the same layout as the remote for my Sony TiVo (SVR-2000, which is still running with the additional 60GB Maxtor I added to it in July 2000), for my Hughes HDVR2s. My wife and daughters use the peanut remotes, but I use my Sony RM-VL900's.


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## AnmNatas (Dec 22, 2005)

Love the threads you guys have been posting and granted, I just bought an r15 yesterday and reading on how much alot of you guys hate it. I am almost tempted to return it, but not sure since I wont be the one mainly using it. I have been wanting for a long time to get something in which I could record my favorite shows and hence tranfer them over as well. I do plan on getting another type of device in which will be going in my main room where I can or could do this, and granted I have read several pages of threads and posts. So granted I notice the r10 has been mentioned alot and given good praise. So is there any retailers which may still have it in stock, and if I were wanting to dod anything regarding what I mentioned is at all difficult or some what easy to do?


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## rick31621 (Jun 20, 2004)

I now have 2 R10s after sticking the R15 in the closet.
CC and BB carry the R10.
With the rebate it will be free!


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## AnmNatas (Dec 22, 2005)

Well I just got back and exchanged the r15 for a r10 luckily I got the last one that a sore had, the r10 will be the one I will be using. I do still plan on getting the 15 for my parents--they wont be doing or wanting to do anything like what I plan on doing so I think it will be great for them. I have a buddy of mine who will be doing some asking some of his co-workers about some of the stuff to do with the 10., that I want done to.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

AnmNatas said:


> So granted I notice the r10 has been mentioned alot and given good praise. So is there any retailers which may still have it in stock, and if I were wanting to dod anything regarding what I mentioned is at all difficult or some what easy to do?


Note that you may want "Any Series 2 DirecTivo", not necessarily the R10. The R10 is/was "last of the Tivo-based DirecTV DVRs".

The HDVR2, DSR7000, SD-DVR40, SD-DVR80, et al. are all numbers for basically the same DirecTivo Series 2 hardware (but with different mfg names on the front - Hughes, RCA, Samsung, etc), with maybe a difference in recording capacity.

Any of the S2 DirecTivos can be (relatively) easily upgraded with commodity hard drives to increase recording capacity. The R15 currently cannot, and the future of such a capacity expansion is uncertain.

The R10 is a slightly different beast hardware-wise as it has a redesigned mainboard compared to the other S2 units. It offers the same functionality/features as the other S2 units but doens't lend itself to being "hacked" - which means modifications to the running software to enable networking and other features. Some claim the R10 has "fuzzier" menus and/or poorer video output quality, others see no difference between the R10 and the non-R10 units.

For some, a non-R10 DirecTivo is more desirable so that they can hack it to enable networked features such as multi-room viewing, web access, "JavaHMO" (to play MP3s, show pix, weather maps, movie times, web pages, streaming web audio, etc.)

If you have a non-R10 DirecTivo,  this is a good starting point for hacking ... to get an idea of what this 'Zipper' hack brings read this post.


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## tambrose (Jan 4, 2006)

I am thinking about buying this DVR-is the interface as easy to navigate through as the Direct TV TIVO DVR? We have Vonage as our phone service and the system will never dial out properly. Directv stated this unit would download directly from the satellite and not need to make calls. any help would be appreciated.

Does anyone else use Vonage and have issues with the their DVR dialing out?


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

tambrose said:


> I am thinking about buying this DVR-is the interface as easy to navigate through as the Direct TV TIVO DVR? We have Vonage as our phone service and the system will never dial out properly. Directv stated this unit would download directly from the satellite and not need to make calls. any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Does anyone else use Vonage and have issues with the their DVR dialing out?


This unit "R15" has to dial out for PPV billing ordered via a remote just like the DirecTiVos. And it will need to be connected to a phoneline for NFLST, just like the receivers and other DVRs. The DirecTiVos get their grid/program information from the satellite, so there is no difference there. The details about the capability of its modem can only be answered by those people who might have one installed and connected to VOIP, which there is not likely to be too many.

I wouldn't go by a CSRs advise.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

AnmNatas said:


> Well I just got back and exchanged the r15 for a r10 luckily I got the last one that a sore had, the r10 will be the one I will be using. I do still plan on getting the 15 for my parents--they wont be doing or wanting to do anything like what I plan on doing so I think it will be great for them. I have a buddy of mine who will be doing some asking some of his co-workers about some of the stuff to do with the 10., that I want done to.


Not that it matters much now... (Since you exchanged it), but for anyone else whom is intrested.

Check out www.dbstalk.com that is where the R15 discussion was moved to (since it was requested to be moved out of this particular forum).

You will find a good debate about what is good, bad, needs to be fixed, what it does better, what it does worse, ect.... over there.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

tbeckner said:


> ...One last thing, so far HD has been a real bust for almost everyone involved, including DirecTV subscribers. And the actual amount of true HD content is still very low. Some of the content being fed as HD content is actually SD upconverted video and at this point most HD users have no idea that is happening...


If you don't watch any HD programming, how can you know whether "the actual amount of HD content is still very low?" Maybe I am just lucky enough to be a "match" for the suite of HD programming currently available. My viewing is typically 95% HD and 5% SD, and nearly all is watched on an HDTV fed by an HD TiVo.

I would agree that, financially speaking, HD has been a bust for the broadcasters for sure, since they have made significant investments for no new offsetting revenue.

I have had more channels available to me than I could ever watch for many years--first from mediocre-quality, up-and-down cable service and later from DirecTV with some channels being over-compressed. The key to improving my viewing opportunities has been the DirecTiVo SD and HD boxes, allowing me to preselect programs I want to view at my convenience. As I did in the past with SD programming, I can pick and choose the HD programs of interest to me and "TiVo" them.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

Budget_HT said:


> If you don't watch any HD programming, how can you know whether "the actual amount of HD content is still very low?" Maybe I am just lucky enough to be a "match" for the suite of HD programming currently available. My viewing is typically 95% HD and 5% SD, and nearly all is watched on an HDTV fed by an HD TiVo.


I am quoting "Industry Sources", that say the actual amount of true HD content that is being broadcasted on the available HD channels is currently less than 50%, OVERALL. That some of the content that is labeled as HD is actually up converted SD content.

Even worst, based upon reviews, most HD equipment owners do not have their equipment setup correctly, and are watching no better than 480i (Regular TV).


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Let's do some math....  (bad joke from a previous thread)

Anyway... HD is another one of those... Depends where you live.

In Chicago, we have 6 networks that broadcast OTA - with HD Content.
But others areas are significantly less.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

ebonovic said:


> Let's do some math....  (bad joke from a previous thread)
> 
> Anyway... HD is another one of those... Depends where you live.
> 
> ...


And of course not everyone has 6 local OTA HD broadcasters available, just as you posted.

But even Chicago OTA HD Content is not all HD Content 24 hours per day/7 days per week. And do you know how much of that is actually HD Content and not up converted content, even on the OTA channels. Same can be said for ESPN HD and Discovery HD, how much of the Content on both of those channels is fully native HD Content? And of course the same can be said of the broadcast channels.

BTW, if you have 6 OTA HD broadcasters, what re-broadcasters are those? ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and the other two?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Actually now that I think about it... Chicago has 7

ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX,
PBS, WGN (WB Affiliate, but also has Chicago sports in HD), and WPWR (UPN Affiliate, which at least did carry Enterprise in HD)

and yes... a lot of this is upconvert, but it still looks pretty darn good.


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## Budget_HT (Jan 2, 2001)

My intended point was, when I boil it down to the shows I choose to watch, there is plenty of HD to watch.

In the Seattle area, for OTA we have ABC (plus local news and some local programs in HD), CBS, NBC (portions of news and some local programs in HD), FOX, PBS, UPN and WB. From DirecTV I get ESPN and ESPN2 (yes, many non-HD programs), Discovery HD (100% HD, no upconverts), HDNet (100%), HDNet Movies (100%), HBO (mix), SHO (mix) and selected sportscasts from FSNW in HD (many Mariners baseball and Sonics basketball games).

Also, don't sell the "upconverts" short. 480i programs upconverted and broadcast over the HDTV channels provide the cleanest non-HDTV you will see outside of the broadcast studio, in terms of resolution, color fidelity and lack of ghosts or noise. Unfortunately, some source material for upconverts is very bad--my old VHS camcorder gave better results. I don't know where they find that bad stuff, but sending over a digital path really makes the poor PQ stand out.

I realize that every area of the country has a different mix and amount of HD from their available sources. But, for prime time, excluding reality shows and network news, nearly everything is HD. Late-night Leno and Letterman are also HD. Lot's of major league sports and NASCAR are in HD. Add the Dolby Digital 5.1 audio and you have some decent entertainment selections.

OTOH, I too see too many examples of HDTV owners not receiving HDTV and not even understanding that they could, in many cases for free with a $20 OTA antenna. That is the sad part--to invest in the HDTV and not get the benefits. This is why mandatory integrated OTA and Cable digital tuners on larger HDTVs is a good thing.

As always, YMMV. But I find and record more HD programs than I have time to watch.


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