# Are your locals cropped on Directv now?



## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I have been reading up on the fact that as we get closer to the digital transition that many of the local channels in SD will be cropped. For those that don't know they are using the 14x9 signal and cutting off the sides so it fits the 4:3 size of a standard TV.

For example CSI:Miami and Criminal Minds are no longer in widescreen here which they were last year. Instead the image appears zoomed in. This results in local ads running off the screen and even sometimes people in the show being cut in half on the edge of the screen.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I guess this is more of a Tampa issue or people in general don't even notice or at least on this board no one cares. Locally it seems only CW is still airing widescreen versions on SD.

Surviver, CSI:Miami and Criminal Minds are all now cropped.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

I've never noticed a difference between my locals via analog, and my locals via sat SD, but it has been a good while since I had functional OTA.


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## shaun-ohio (Jun 21, 2003)

my sd locals are so bad you would swear they are analog.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

If needed, I'd rather see the 16:9 picture be letter boxed for 4:3 display.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

CrashHD said:


> I've never noticed a difference between my locals via analog, and my locals via sat SD, but it has been a good while since I had functional OTA.


I have never had a functional OTA. I am actually talking about the SD channels on Directv went from broadcasting the widescreen versions of shows such as Survivor, CSI, CSI:Miami, and Criminal minds to airing them now cropped to a 4:3 image. This may just be local though since I don't have the E/W feed of CBS to verify. CW still airs Supernatural and Smallville in widescreen so it definitely looks like it is up to the local station and whether they still offer a SD digital feed or whether they are using a centercut of the HD feed.


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## bootsboy9 (Aug 16, 2004)

I live in Phila.Pa.,and DTV has been doing it here for about 3 weeks.Having a 16:9 HDTV but using a SD Tivo I prefer letterbox which I use the Zoom 1 feature to fill the entire screen.If I'm watching a local in real time I'll switch the TV to the OTA tuner for the HD. BTW going too wait for the DTV with HD-Tivo, till then keep letterboxing.


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## CrashHD (Nov 10, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> I have never had a functional OTA. I am actually talking about the SD channels on Directv went from broadcasting the widescreen versions of shows


I'm sorry if I was unclear. I got what you meant. I just meant that my DirecTV-delivered SD local channels look the same as they always did...not like they are a cropped or zoomed HD, but just like...normal SD I guess, if there is such a thing anymore.


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## Mark Griswold (Apr 22, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> I am actually talking about the SD channels on Directv went from broadcasting the widescreen versions of shows such as Survivor, CSI, CSI:Miami, and Criminal minds to airing them now cropped to a 4:3 image. This may just be local though since I don't have the E/W feed of CBS to verify.


Noticed the same thing last night in CT on NBC (The Office and ER)

Used to be letterboxed 4:3 (on my 4:3 set). Now the sides are cropped. Looks like pan&scan without the panning.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

Mark Griswold said:


> Noticed the same thing last night in CT on NBC (The Office and ER)
> 
> Used to be letterboxed 4:3 (on my 4:3 set). Now the sides are cropped. Looks like pan&scan without the panning.


I would say that the local stations themselve, and not Directv, are doing it. If you notice on the hi-def widescxreen image, the station logo is now a few inches over from the right, just at the right place to be visible on the screen when the station crops it for the SD telecast.

So, while I know what you mean, I don't think that is Directv who is doing it.


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## jca (Jun 5, 2001)

Our local NBC affiliate showed Saturday Night Live "cropped" for the first time last night. (I believe it has been letterboxed previously.)

Is this the local station or the NBC network's doing?

I'm not opposed to stations/networks moving forward with digital TV, widescreen, etc., but I find it annoying that my local affiliate signal looks/sounds like crap, isn't available in HD, and now will be cropping SD programming.


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## dlmcmurr (Mar 2, 2006)

I'm getting locals out of Knoxville and have noticed it for a few weeks now. I especially noticed it on "TURDAY NIGHT LI", or at least that is what it was called on my TV. Dang, I really don't want to replace my TVs.

Dave


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## tjperez (Jan 14, 2002)

The downstream equipment should recognize the picture types and auto-adjust......I would guess.


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## rwe (Oct 22, 2006)

You do know there is a setting somewhere that asks if you wnt 16x9 or 4x3


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## Bill R (Jan 10, 2003)

I talked to an engineer at one of the local stations and he said all three vendors (DirecTV, DISH Network and the local cable company) are taking "center cuts" of their digital feed for their SD locals. He said that they are getting complaints about their "prime time programming" (network programs when they are doing HD programming) that the sides are cut off. It looks that the vendor are not doing it correct.

I have a digital converter box on one of my TVs. The box is "smart" enough to get it right (you do not have to change formats when the picture size changes). You would think that if that technology can be built into $50 boxes that DirecTV (and other vendors) could get it right.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

rwe said:


> You do know there is a setting somewhere that asks if you wnt 16x9 or 4x3


Yes and it doesn't do anything with regards to these shows since the program is cut before it is transmitted. The receiver isn't cropping the program but Directv is before they send the signal.


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## tjperez (Jan 14, 2002)

Without any conversion, a 16x9 picture should translate on a 4x3 set as an amorphic-distorted picture; that means the horizontal width is squeezed so people look skinnier than they really are.



Bill R said:


> I talked to an engineer at one of the local stations and he said all three vendors (DirecTV, DISH Network and the local cable company) are taking "center cuts" of their digital feed for their SD locals. He said that they are getting complaints about their "prime time programming" (network programs when they are doing HD programming) that the sides are cut off. It looks that the vendor are not doing it correct.
> 
> I have a digital converter box on one of my TVs. The box is "smart" enough to get it right (you do not have to change formats when the picture size changes). You would think that if that technology can be built into $50 boxes that DirecTV (and other vendors) could get it right.


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## HellFish (Jan 28, 2007)

I also get Phila, PA locals, and have noticed this problem as well - specifically with NBC. The Office, 30 Rock & SNL were all in widescreen last year, and now they are all cropped. It's especially obvious when someone that is talking isn't even seen on the screen any longer.

Should I call DTV about this problem, or my local affiliate to complain? I'd like an answer that isn't based in speculation.

*edit:* I did a quick search on DTVs forums, and found this. It appears to be DTV doing this, but I don't see confirmation from a DTV employee. Just speculation from customers. And brennok on 10/10 seems to make an argument that it isn't DTV doing this.

http://forums.directv.com/pe/action/forums/displaypost?postID=10446794


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## walkerjs (Sep 22, 2005)

Philly locals here too, and at least SNL is cropped on my standard TV, probably on my widescreen (non-HD, at least the receiver is only SD; the TV itself is HD capable). Kind of annoying though not debilitating even if I'm in no position to get an HD TV in my office and all the HD kit required (I'll give up my R10 when they pry it from my cold...etc.)


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## vman (Feb 9, 2001)

I noticed this on SNL this weekend for the first time as well (I'd be surprised if it has happened in the past, since it was incredibly obvious this weekend and I've never noticed it before). Washington DC locals.


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## bootsboy9 (Aug 16, 2004)

HellFish said:


> I also get Phila, PA locals, and have noticed this problem as well - specifically with NBC. The Office, 30 Rock & SNL were all in widescreen last year, and now they are all cropped. It's especially obvious when someone that is talking isn't even seen on the screen any longer.
> 
> Should I call DTV about this problem, or my local affiliate to complain? I'd like an answer that isn't based in speculation.
> 
> ...


For Philly NBC locals use ch#40 out of AC........their still letterboxing. I changed all my SP's for NBC from ch#10 to ch#40.


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## HellFish (Jan 28, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up bootsboy. I will give this a try tomorrow. Does this mean NBC10 is to blame?

Another annoying thing I noticed is NBC10's guide data still says Letterbox, even though it is not.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

In a lot of areas Dish Network and DirecTV share a reception facility (POP) that picks up local stations off the air from an antenna and relays the signal back to the respective uplink facilities. They were taking the analog signal and converting it to digital for their customers. Because of the analog shutdown they have been switching each POP to use the digital signal. Because the digital signal is 16:9 they crop the sides off to get a 4:3 picture, this is needed to prevent their customers from seeing 4:3 programing with black bars on all sides.

They are aware of the problems caused by this and the networks are testing something called AFD that will signal the converter box at Directv or Dish whether it should crop the picture or letterbox it. Last I heard it was being successfully tested in New Mexico.


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## texasbrit (Mar 17, 2004)

As has been posted several times, the picture problem is due to the centercutting of the HD feed to produce a 4:3 digital signal. As DirecTV and Dish, and also FIOS and the cable companies, start transitioning to use the digital signal, this will be happening everywhere. And as one of the posters said, the networks are all moving their identification "bugs" to a place where it will still be seen after center-cutting.
For the networks, the alternative was to send a 4:3 picture with the 16:9 picture letterboxed, and they obviously felt they would get far more complaints from people who wanted the picture to fill the screen than from those who did not want the centercut.
AFD is being worked on but it does not solve the problem on its own; everyone would need to build new satellite/cable and converter boxes to take advantage of this feature. See http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/61738


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## tjperez (Jan 14, 2002)

I have never noticed until after reading this thread that our local ABC station has half of its identification "bug" chopped in half. I usually watch Sci-Fi and other channels where letterbox is common.


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## dtremain (Jan 5, 2004)

tjperez said:


> I have never noticed until after reading this thread that our local ABC station has half of its identification "bug" chopped in half. I usually watch Sci-Fi and other channels where letterbox is common.


That sounds like a lot of "overscan on your particular TV.


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## JeffS (May 12, 2002)

Finally, I've found other people having the same problem. I was starting to think I was the only one noticing, and it was kind of disturbing. Is there anything we can do about this? I've got two SD DTiVos that I don't plan on giving up anytime soon. I'm sick of seeing part of a show especially when something key to a scene is chopped in half.

Is this where we start to petition DirecTV to stop screwing up the picture? Do we just sit back and take it? Do we just have to wait for them to get their head out of.... well, you know.

-Jeff


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

JeffS said:


> Is this where we start to petition DirecTV to stop screwing up the picture? Do we just sit back and take it? Do we just have to wait for them to get their head out of.... well, you know.


Not much a petition would do, as the decision on how to present the image is up to the individual station -- they are given the choice of having the channel letterboxed, or center-cut. Seems like the overwhelming majority have chosen center-cut, as otherwise 4x3 programming (which is still a good portion of the programming day) would appear as a box in the middle of the screen (black bars on all four sides).

Complaints should be directed at the local station -- they have the power to tell DirecTV to change how their channel is displayed.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

JeffS said:


> Finally, I've found other people having the same problem. I was starting to think I was the only one noticing, and it was kind of disturbing. Is there anything we can do about this? I've got two SD DTiVos that I don't plan on giving up anytime soon. I'm sick of seeing part of a show especially when something key to a scene is chopped in half.
> 
> Is this where we start to petition DirecTV to stop screwing up the picture? Do we just sit back and take it? Do we just have to wait for them to get their head out of.... well, you know.
> 
> -Jeff


Did you read any of the posts above, especially from Texasbrit? 

DirecTV isn't screwing up the picture. As stations move to digital only DirecTV, Dish, Fios, AT&T and cable now must use the digital/HD signal for SD locals. Each local station is given the choice of having their station "center cut" or "letterboxed". Vast majority are choosing center cut.

So it's not DirecTV's "fault" in that you'll find this is the case for your local stations on *all* providers. Just a side effect of the digital OTA transition. Not a thing you can do about it other then to watch the channel in HD. I can't even remember that last time I watched any of my locals in SD, maybe 5 years ago.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I'd rather they just present us with a 16:9 picture framed for 4:3. In other words, letter box it. I don't have locals yet, but I do get DNS ch 385 (the CW from DC) in SD. I can't say for sure, but I'd bet they have an OTA HD signal there, yet they are sending the center cut version to DirecTV. But, then DirecTV could give us the full HD, couldn't they? Nah, probably not.


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## cdbragg (Feb 9, 2009)

the cropping problem is here in Chicago, on Fox, NBC, and PBS. Not sure about CBS. 

I've been investigating this for almost two months now, and it's a classic case of both parties blaming each other. Direct tv will claim it's not their problem, or will accuse you of having the settings wrong on your box like you're the idiot. 

Two of the local affiliates got back to me and one of them sent this message back to me.

"Unfortunately, I am aware of this practice. As we approach the digital transition the direct broadcast satellite and cable companies are taking our over the air HD 16:9 signal to feed their systems. We have asked these providers to use AFD (Active Format Descriptor) technology to detect when the network feeds 16:9 content so that your receiver sees a letterbox display during the 16:9 presentations. Many of the providers use a 4:3 center cut of the 16:9 frame as most of the content today is still 4:3. AFD only works with certain new technology that is slowly rolling out. "

Personally I'm going to keep the pressure on Direct TV, because center cut is unacceptable. I can't believe anyone can watch SNL, ER, 24, or even The Office and not notice how horribly the picture is cut off. ER it even cuts off the credits at the beginning.


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## DrLightning (Feb 9, 2009)

Metro Atlanta, GA. Multiple major networks horribly cropped. I haven't analyzed to make sure which ones, but it's a problem on many of the shows we record. I revisited this forum just now, having not been here in years, just to find out what was going on with this cropping business. Many of the shows we watch have the actor credits in the beginning substantially cut off, and often times actors appear half cut off (and I hope the show directors are better than to do that on the original).

No settings changes on the TiVo help. I do have a 4:3 TV and I don't know if it will auto adjust or anything, so I wasn't sure if the problem was with my TV or TiVo or DirecTV or local station. It now sounds like it's either DirecTV or the local station -- or probably more accurately, a combination of what they're doing.


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## DrLightning (Feb 9, 2009)

Hey, wait a minute... When I took the poll, I thought the question was phrased to ask if your image was cropped. (I could have been distracted by the original post title.) Now, when I see results instead of poll question, it's phrased in terms of "formatted to fit". S**** "formatted to fit"! "Cropped" or "cut". Am I remembering incorrectly, or is the original poll question different?

My actual concern is that the "formatted to fit" phrasing may be understood in different ways by different people. "Are your locals formatted to fit your SD set?" could mean to some that they've been nicely letterboxed to fit on the screen without cutting anything off. So, the "No" poll answers could be from people that read this in that way. 

Perhaps the original poster can delete and restart the poll, keeping the poll question the same as the original post title, "Are your locals cropped on Directv now?"


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Neither you guys understand the situation. And it's not DirecTV's fault, nor any broadcaster. 

Here it is in simple terms:
There will no longer be an analog signal to supply and SD feed.
Thus DirecTV, Dish, FIOS, and cable all must now provide an SD feed to it's customers via the digital/HD feed.
The masses would complain to high heaven if everything was letterboxed so each local station is given a choice per the FCC:
1) Center cut the digital/HD feed
2) Letterbox and/or stretch it

So if your local station doesn't like the center cut it's their fault since they told DirecTV, Dish and everyone else to do a center cut on their station!  Pretty funny they want to blame DirecTV or Dish. If anything I guess they could blame the FCC and the government for going digital.


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## T-Halen (May 21, 2002)

Same problem here in Milwaukee. A couple of clips to demonstrate...
SNL: 



ER:


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

Well, as stated, it's not a "problem". It's what the networks are doing now on SD broadcasts. There is nothing any of us can do about it, other then stop watching SD which I did over 6 years ago.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah I know but it is getting worse it seems. Tonight on my local NBC half the time the news anchor was cut in half and whenever they ran footage or graphics it was compressed so everything was tall and skinny making most text almost impossible to read.


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## tallgntlmn (Jan 18, 2005)

DrLightning said:


> Metro Atlanta, GA. Multiple major networks horribly cropped.


I concur. WXIA is one that is definitely cropped. You can see it most on the local news. Well, that's about the only show I watch on NBC. I haven't noticed it on WAGA. I will look later as that is the station I watch the most.


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## jca (Jun 5, 2001)

So at first, our local NBC affiliate cropped the signal. Then a month or two ago they decided to switch to letterboxing. 

(You could see shows like The Office and 30 Rock start out cropped for a split second, and then immediately "snap" into letterbox format. Has anyone else noticed that at the very beginning of an NBC show?)

Now they've gone back to cropping the picture. I assume they are doing this because of the switchover to digital? Regardless, I wish they would make up their mind already.


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## tallgntlmn (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm about to get fed up enough to upgrade to the HD receiver (well combined with my tuner 2 dying on locals). The cropping was awful watching the golf tournament over the weekend. It got me to wondering if the other channels are doing it. But NBC-WXIA is terrible about the cropping. There was a Srixon commercial and the names were off the screen, couldn't even tell which golfer it was. 

I got to thinking about this a bit. Is the cropping the reason a person's head will take up almost all of my 27" screen when their being interviewed?


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

They cut off the sides, the top and bottom should be the same.


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## crkeehn (Mar 1, 2005)

I don't watch local that much, those that I have seen have been letterboxed.


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## bootsboy9 (Aug 16, 2004)

Just notice since yesterday that the local Fox (29) Net. in Phila. was back too letterboxing.That makes me happy.


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## catocony (Nov 14, 2006)

Man, things are going bonkers. In DC, CBS (Chan 9) is sometimes letterboxed, sometimes in 4:3 full, sometimes cropped, sometimes letterboxed and cut on the sides so it looks like a 19" TV or something. All in the span of two minutes, as one commercial is regular sized, the basketball game is cropped, the news is miniature.

It looks like the powers that be really want to kill off SD TV users. Mine are 8 years old and still in great shape, I guess I should just bite the bullet and head out and by some flat-screen jobs.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

It would appear that DirecTV is beginning to implement Active Format Descriptor (AFD) for their SD feeds. This means the SD feed will either display full-screen 4:3 or letterboxed 16:9 -- the information on WHICH one to use comes from data that is transmitted by the TV station, and it can change on a per-element basis (ie: in one commercial break, it could switch back and forth from full-screen to letterboxed several times, depending on how those commercials are flagged). 

At the station I work for, we just noticed this past week that this was happening on our DirecTV SD feed -- whenever we switch to FOX, the DirecTV feed goes letterbox. It appears as though FOX is sending a constant flag to display the feed as letterbox, as it never changes during the breaks -- thus any 4:3 commercials appear as "postage stamps." I assume that will change at some point -- this doesn't appear to be fully implemented as of yet.

When done correctly, this should solve most of the problems with 4:3 displays. 4:3 material will be displayed as 4:3; 16:9 material that is designed to be 4:3 safe can be displayed full-screen as a center-cut; and 16:9 material that uses the full-frame can be letterboxed.

I expect things to be messy for awhile (as noted in the post above) until this gets sorted out, and all material is correctly flagged.


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