# TiVo vs. Windows Media Center



## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

I've found a thread here on this topic but it was over a year old and they were talking about stuff like "when the 4 tuner thing comes out" etc...so I figured I'd start a thread to pick up the "advances in technology".

Here are some initial questions that come to my mind:

So what are some of the differences between going HTPC vs. TiVo?

Are there other HTPC softwares you can launch instead of the built-in _Windows Media Center_?

What does the XBox do? Allow you to stream "live TV" to another room?

Can you stream "live TV" to a normal computer running _WMC _or some other software?

You can stream any *recording* from a HTPC via _Windows Media *Player*_ right?

My TiVo does not allow premium channels to be transferred via _TiVo Desktop_. Will a _WMC _be any different? Can you break the protection in the HTPC (like many other PC files) and "transfer" it anywhere you want, including burn it to a DVD?

Does _WMC _take a lot to run? For example, what kind of HTPC do you need to multitask _WMC _watching TV while playing say..._Crysis _(on a separate screen).


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## rayik (Feb 4, 2006)

Our family has "cut the cord" and we watch OTA and streaming internet.

Before "cutting the cord" we tried different solutions one being Windows Media Center WMC). The other was TIVO (for OTA) and a Roku (for internet streaming).

The WMC set up was a computer running with the Windows 7 OS running Windows Media Center. A tuner card was needed watch OTA (rooftop antenna for OTA plugged into tunner card in WMC PC).

The family did not like WMC for internet streaming. It was easy to find clips of shows but not so easy to find full episodes of shows they wanted. 

I then tried out a TIVO for OTA and a Roku for internet streaming. The Roku is a small device that plugs into your modem and connects to your TV through HDMI. It organizes the internet into "channels" you can watch. We have netflix and Hulu+ subrcriptions as well using other "channels." 

The family much preferred the Roku plus TIVO set up to WMC only. So that's how we went.

As far as watching TV through the xbox, you can do that. However, you have to setup a PC somewhere in your house. That PC will run Windows Media Center. If you want OTA, you will need a tuner card in it and connect your antenna to it. You would then set up the xbox to act as a Media Center Extender. As long as your PC is on with WMC running and is connected to the network the xbox is connected to, the xbox will then act as a "extender" and run WMC on your TV. On the XBOX it is a limited version without all the features found in a WMC PC. For example, you can not stream internet TV through an xbox extender. (MS disables that functionality so you have to go rent or buy shows through the xbox.)

Good luck.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> I've found a thread here on this topic but it was over a year old and they were talking about stuff like "when the 4 tuner thing comes out" etc...so I figured I'd start a thread to pick up the "advances in technology".


Not much, really.



rasmasyean said:


> So what are some of the differences between going HTPC vs. TiVo?


Basically the same as any roll-your-own consumer built device vs an off-the-shelf item - with one exception: it's weird but true that the TiVo is easier to hack.



rasmasyean said:


> Are there other HTPC softwares you can launch instead of the built-in _Windows Media Center_?


It's not built-in, although I supose you can buy HTPCs with WMC already installed. To answer your question, though, the answer is, "No, at least not the last time I checked." A Linux app that supports the Ceton card is supposed to be under development. It is possible it has been released. I have not checked in some months.



rasmasyean said:


> What does the XBox do? Allow you to stream "live TV" to another room?


Among other things, yes.



rasmasyean said:


> Can you stream "live TV" to a normal computer running _WMC _or some other software?


I would expect so. I don't really know, as I have no desire whatsoever to watch "live" TV.



rasmasyean said:


> You can stream any *recording* from a HTPC via _Windows Media *Player*_ right?


Well, no, I don't think so. I think there are restrictions on content with a CCI byte higher in value than 0x01. I'm not sure, however.



rasmasyean said:


> My TiVo does not allow premium channels to be transferred via _TiVo Desktop_. Will a _WMC _be any different? Can you break the protection in the HTPC (like many other PC files) and "transfer" it anywhere you want, including burn it to a DVD?


Nope. This is only possible with a TiVo previous to the Premier. It is not possible on any stock device. I do it all the time with my two S3s and my THD, using kmttg or tserver / TyTool.



rasmasyean said:


> Does _WMC _take a lot to run? For example, what kind of HTPC do you need to multitask _WMC _watching TV while playing say..._Crysis _(on a separate screen).


I wouldn't recomend this. The server - whatever OS it runs - should be dedicated.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Isn't that "Green Circle" _Windows Media Center_ "built-in" to _Windows_? Or is there a version you have to buy or something if you want it to act as a cable card recorder?

OK, so if you can't stream recordings via _Windows Media Player_, you can "share the HTPC video folder" and "copy the file over the network", and then watch it after the whole file is transferred?

And if you can't "multitask" your HTPC, I suppose building one with a Core i7, 8 GB RAM, decent video card, etc&#8230;will just waste money and electricity? What then is a good spec for a HTPC? Can you get around this "dedicated" limitation by say&#8230;dedicating a separate hard drive for recordings? I ask because one of the things I thought a HTPC has over a TiVo, is that you can play games, in addition to running browsers with stuff like _Hulu _and _NetFlix _in the browser version.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

IIRC, most* versions of Windows 7 has WMC built in. All you need is an external tuner. I don't know anything about set up, though.

There is alternative HT software available if WMC is not to your liking.
You could probably just Google "HTPC software".

* The basic version of Windows 7 does not have WMC.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

rasmasyean said:


> So what are some of the differences between going HTPC vs. TiVo?
> 
> Are there other HTPC softwares you can launch instead of the built-in _Windows Media Center_?
> 
> ...


As someone who recently added Media Center with a Ceton InfiniTV4, I will sum it up as best as possible.

They both have advantages and disadvantages depending on your usage.

*Remote Management:* TiVo has a much more superior remote management setup when you take into account TiVo.com, the iPad App, KMTTG, and PyTiVo.

On Windows Media Center you do have a free program called Remote Potato, but it is limited in the functionality. The previous developer who made a remote guide was hired by Microsoft and then the functionality wasn't added. You would think Media Center would get it right when you take into account things like Homegroup on Windows 7, but they intend you to either access Media Center from a 360 or the PC itself.

There are also powershell scripts like WTV-Renamer and a conversion tool similar to KMTTG called MC-TVConverter.

Overall here I give TiVo the hands down win.

*Season Passes*: Here I give the win to Media Center for the most part. I haven't had any accuracy issues with Media Center, but I have read they do happen. They also don't offer any form of episode guide so you lose the season and episode number that the Premiere displays in their HDUI. Of course this is dependent on Zap2it which isn't always accurate.

The reason I give Media Center the win though is the options. Media Center offers a form of Season Pass combined with Wishlists. For shows you can pick the channel or HD only, HD Preferred, SD Only, SD Preferred. You can restrict season passes to timeslot which helps for shows that repeat with bad guide data like the Soup. You can also add padding that will only happen if nothing else conflicts with the recording.

Along with this they offer conflict management options. When browsing the to do list, you can see what won't record and address it there. You can just fix it for that one time or go into a tool that will fix it for all future instances.

*Streaming and MRV*: I have to give the win to Media Center. TiVo doesn't offer streaming yet. Now I will say for the short time streaming was available I liked how it worked better TiVo to TiVo than from PC to 360. I have just always liked how TiVo plays back and trickplays.

On top of this, Media Center supports more file formats via streaming. I have no issues streaming my AVIs/MKVs to my 360, but have to wait for the transfers on the TiVo which lately has been also causing my TiVo to reboot while transferring. I don't see TiVo offering this so I don't see this changing.

*DRM* As far as DRM this is a tie with a slight benefit to Media Center. Copy Once recordings are just that except you can of course stream them on Media Center so you still have multiroom. Streaming copy once content though must come from a 360 or extender though and can't be another PC. With Media Center though you can move the recordings around, you are just limited to playing them back via the original PC that recorded the show. 
_____________________________________
Overall I am still sticking with TiVo, but Media Center makes a good argument especially since in my case it only cost me $220 to grab the Ceton InfiniTV4.


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> And if you can't "multitask" your HTPC,


I don't think anyone is saying you can't, but maybe you shouldn't.

But I do have a much less powerful PC and I watch blu-rays and record stuff(Sometimes I have 5 recordings going) in the background and everything works just fine.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> Isn't that "Green Circle" _Windows Media Center_ "built-in" to _Windows_? Or is there a version you have to buy or something if you want it to act as a cable card recorder?


I can't really say. I can't tell you much about Vista or Win7, beyond the fact I utterly detested everything about them on the systems I tried out.



rasmasyean said:


> OK, so if you can't stream recordings via _Windows Media Player_, you can "share the HTPC video folder" and "copy the file over the network", and then watch it after the whole file is transferred?


Not generally, no. In particular not if the recordings' CCI byte is not 0.



rasmasyean said:


> And if you can't "multitask" your HTPC, I suppose building one with a Core i7, 8 GB RAM, decent video card, etc&#8230;will just waste money and electricity?


I did not say one cannot, I said it is not recommended. Doing so is asking for trouble. What happens if you are recording four TV shows and your game locks up the PC? Instead, I would go with a less expensive PC for the HTPC platform, if I were ever to build one, which is highly unlikely.



rasmasyean said:


> What then is a good spec for a HTPC? Can you get around this "dedicated" limitation by say&#8230;dedicating a separate hard drive for recordings?


The hard drive is not the issue. Indeed, I recommend a RAID array for storing your videos, and any RAID array is going to have plenty of performance. The problem is going to be colliding real-time processes and potentially lost interrupts. There is a reason TiVos are RISC based.



rasmasyean said:


> I ask because one of the things I thought a HTPC has over a TiVo, is that you can play games, in addition to running browsers with stuff like _Hulu _and _NetFlix _in the browser version.


It can certainly be done. Servers, however, should be servers, and workstations should be workstations, and ne'er the twain should meet. I have two Linux file servers, one of which hosts all the files for the LAN as well as Galleon, kmttg, pyTivo, Apache, NTP, pyHME, and OpenVPN, as well as providing a backup for my HVAC controller in the event the other server fails. The backup server runs rsync to backup the main server, plus DNS and the primary HVAC application. Aside from the hard drives, which cost a pretty penny (for 30 of them, anyway) and the RAID enclosures, the server machines really didn't cost much. Any server should be able to expect 24 x 7 reliability. Server up-times should be on the order of months or even years, and with a workstation, that is not realistic.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> *Remote Management:* TiVo has a much more superior remote management setup when you take into account TiVo.com, the iPad App, KMTTG, and PyTiVo.


Don't forget Galleon and pyHME. Also don't forget the large suite of tools available to those who choose not to leave their TiVo stock, such as TiVoWebPlus and the ability to delete programs in kmttg.



innocentfreak said:


> The reason I give Media Center the win though is the options. Media Center offers a form of Season Pass combined with Wishlists.


But not Wishlists, and not Suggestions. I record far, far more programs from Wishlists and Suggestions than from Season Passes. I do have a few dozen Season Passes.



innocentfreak said:


> For shows you can pick the channel or HD only, HD Preferred


Or on the Tivo, only select HD channels as being received. That's what I do.



innocentfreak said:


> SD Only, SD Preferred.


No, thanks.



innocentfreak said:


> You can restrict season passes to timeslot which helps for shows that repeat with bad guide data like the Soup.


Not an option for which I have any need or desire, so I can't give it higher marks than the TiVo.



innocentfreak said:


> You can also add padding that will only happen if nothing else conflicts with the recording.


That's a definite no, thank you. An ability to handle conflicts more smoothly and easily, you bet. A utility which automatically chops off recordings that need to be padded? Uh-uh.



innocentfreak said:


> Along with this they offer conflict management options. When browsing the to do list, you can see what won't record and address it there. You can just fix it for that one time or go into a tool that will fix it for all future instances.


I don't want to fix it from the to-do list. I want to fix it from the selection list. When a selection will generate a three-way conflict, I want all three shows to be displayed for selction not to delete along with an indicator of which ones have future recordings and the ability to browse all three to see when the future recordings will be.



innocentfreak said:


> *Streaming and MRV*: I have to give the win to Media Center. TiVo doesn't offer streaming yet. Now I will say for the short time streaming was available I liked how it worked better TiVo to TiVo than from PC to 360. I have just always liked how TiVo plays back and trickplays.


As long as the transfer is faster than real time, transferring is just fine.



innocentfreak said:


> On top of this, Media Center supports more file formats via streaming. I have no issues streaming my AVIs/MKVs to my 360, but have to wait for the transfers on the TiVo which lately has been also causing my TiVo to reboot while transferring.


I saw where you were having this problem. Bummer. I don't know if this is a corner Premier problem or just a problem with your TiVo. I do not recommend the Premier.



innocentfreak said:


> *DRM* As far as DRM this is a tie with a slight benefit to Media Center.


I disagree categorically, although this is a major reason I do not recommend the Premier. As of this time it does have this limitation. For the S3 and the THD, there are work-arounds.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> Don't forget Galleon and pyHME. Also don't forget the large suite of tools available to those who choose not to leave their TiVo stock, such as TiVoWebPlus and the ability to delete programs in kmttg.


I never had a hacked TiVo so I don't know any of the tools. As far as deleting programs, I can do the same on Media Center from any PC in my house. They are just stored in a regular folder so I just browse to the folder and delete.



lrhorer said:


> But not Wishlists, and not Suggestions. I record far, far more programs from Wishlists and Suggestions than from Season Passes. I do have a few dozen Season Passes.


I turn suggestions off before I even set up my channels. I don't use wishlists, but yes Media Center has wishlists. They just aren't as elaborate as TiVos version.



lrhorer said:


> Or on the Tivo, only select HD channels as being received. That's what I do.


This works fine unless it is a show that is filmed in SD and aired stretched on the HD channel like some of the DIY, HGTV, and older programming. Also why record a SD show on a HD channel when you can just record the SD version?



lrhorer said:


> No, thanks.


We use it sometimes for shows for my niece and nephew since they don't need HD for their cartoons, or for shows which will only be watched on a small TV.



lrhorer said:


> Not an option for which I have any need or desire, so I can't give it higher marks than the TiVo.


Then you don't record any shows with bad guide data, good for you. It comes in handy when you look at your TiVo to do list and you see 13 of the same show and episode being recorded.



lrhorer said:


> That's a definite no, thank you. An ability to handle conflicts more smoothly and easily, you bet. A utility which automatically chops off recordings that need to be padded? Uh-uh.


It doesn't chop off recordings, you are thinking of TiVo's implementation. When possible is exactly that, when it is possible and nothing else is recording. It comes in handy for the many shows these days that run a minute or two longer than they are actually in the guide for. Again though based off your previous posts you probably don't watch any of these many prime time shows so it won't help you.



lrhorer said:


> I don't want to fix it from the to-do list. I want to fix it from the selection list. When a selection will generate a three-way conflict, I want all three shows to be displayed for selction not to delete along with an indicator of which ones have future recordings and the ability to browse all three to see when the future recordings will be.


You can also fix it in the guide, and when you setup the recording. I just listed one screen. It does what you want.



lrhorer said:


> As long as the transfer is faster than real time, transferring is just fine.


When my TiVo doesn't reboot during a transfer sure, but most of my server content isn't natively compatible with TiVo so it doesn't transfer faster than realtime. I still would prefer to be able to transfer or at least play as it did when streaming TiVo to TiVo was temporarily enabled where you thought you were playing a local file. Of course TiVo would have to add a ton more codec and container support to be the one box.



lrhorer said:


> I saw where you were having this problem. Bummer. I don't know if this is a corner Premier problem or just a problem with your TiVo. I do not recommend the Premier.


It is a recent bug so something related to 14.8 or my drive is going bad. I just need to work on it and test some more to narrow it down.



lrhorer said:


> I disagree categorically, although this is a major reason I do not recommend the Premier. As of this time it does have this limitation. For the S3 and the THD, there are work-arounds.


I have FiOS so it has never been an issue for me so I have never luckily had to see how it would affect my viewing.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

rasmasyean said:


> So what are some of the differences between going HTPC vs. TiVo?


Well, with WMC you get to pick and choose what's important to you. That's the first thing you should realize. How quiet? How pretty? How much storage? What are you willing to spend?

TiVo probably handles 1080i (interlaced) video better than the HTPC. I notice issues now and then but most of the time it's AOK.

TiVo is better when it comes to control over playback when it comes to FF/RW/slow/framebyframe.

Tivo handles padding better. When WMC has two back to back recordings on the same channel the end of one program and the start of the next are not padded, even if there are enough free tuners available to do it.

WMC doesn't have a (now very high IMHO) monthly fee. I have one WMC box and two extenders and it runs fine. My monthly fee is the cost of one CableCard. Figure out what TiVo would cost you for this. And I get to watch all programs from every location.

WMC extenders (even the XBox 360) are a bit sluggish. I don't know why, they just are.

WMC's Netflix integration is pretty good, especially if you've got yourself a wireless keyboard. (I recommend a Bluetooth adapter and the Logitech PS3 keyboard.)

TiVo's "Now Playing" list with folders is tons better than WMC. WMC has a lousy recorded program listing for more than a few shows.

I've found it helpful to have the OS drive separate from the AV drive.



rasmasyean said:


> Are there other HTPC softwares you can launch instead of the built-in _Windows Media Center_?


No. Someone mentioned the Linux software that might become available. Sadly I believe that will only be for unprotected content.



rasmasyean said:


> Does _WMC _take a lot to run? For example, what kind of HTPC do you need to multitask _WMC _watching TV while playing say..._Crysis _(on a separate screen).


No, I don't think it takes too much if you consider the dollar cost. But you're looking at two PCs. One "does it all" PC could possibly work but I wouldn't try it. Regarding cost, it depends on what you're into. I'll post my WMC configuration. You'll see some qualitative differences between any TiVo and my configuration.

OS: Windows 7 Home Premium
Case: SilverStone Crown CW02 (has IR receiver and display)
Tuner: Ceton InfiniTV 4
Processor: Intel i5-760
AV Storage: 6x Western Digital 2TB AV-GP RAID5
OS Storage: Intel 80GB X25-M
RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws 8GB
Motherboard: Asus P7H57D-V EVO
Video: Asus GT240 Silent
Power Supply: SeaSonic 650W X650 Gold
Heatsink: Thermalright HR-01 Plus + Thermalright 120mm Duct
Fan: Scythe 120MM Kama
Remote: Logitech Harmony 650

What should jump out at you? Well, there's 10TB of usable AV storage for one. Again, figure out how much that would cost you monthly with TiVo. The "absurd" amount I spent on the PC suddenly doesn't seem so absurd for the capacity. I have over 850 HD programs (mostly movies) recorded and on rainy days I might get to a few of them.

When it comes down to it, I don't care about "ripping" or otherwise transferring content off of WMC they way I cared about doing it with TiVo. There's plenty of storage there. I might upgrade the drives one day... probably when one fails and I rebuild the array.

What's another thing that should jump out at you? Well, the hardware is no longer leading edge but it's a very quiet and very well specified PC. It's capable of handling all of this video and more with ease. TiVo is still a one trick pony.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Are you saying that all TV shows recorded with WMC has the CCI byte setting? Why is that? So the only way you can use a WMC is to buy a whole bunch of XBox's? I read that the recordings are in a WMV file. Is this true? I though you can open this with WMP or VLC or Nero or whatever? Are you saying that WMV files with a CCI byte setting can only be opened on an XBox (including the original HTPC)? How do they accomplish something like that?


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Oh wait, I just looked it up. It's .wtv.
I read some other forum where someone said it was .wmv.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

rasmasyean said:


> Are you saying that all TV shows recorded with WMC has the CCI byte setting? Why is that? So the only way you can use a WMC is to buy a whole bunch of XBox's? I read that the recordings are in a WMV file. Is this true? I though you can open this with WMP or VLC or Nero or whatever? Are you saying that WMV files with a CCI byte setting can only be opened on an XBox (including the original HTPC)? How do they accomplish something like that?


It is WTV as you posted.

No not all, it depends totally on your cable provider.

If you are only using one room, then it won't bother you. If you are using multiple rooms then yes you would need 360s to view copy once content.

If it is copy freely, you can convert it to whatever format you want.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

OK, I just found the folder "C:\Users\Public\Recorded TV\Sample Media" on my desktop with some samples in it and the files are *.dvr-ms*. LOL. So I guess *.wtv* is for Windows 7? Because I'm using Vista right now.

OK, so let me get if I get the terminology here.

copy once - you can "copy" it ONE time...and that ONE time is from live TV.
copy freely - you can "copy" it an infinite amount of times anywhere you want.
copy never???

*copy once* recordings on my TiVo seem to be from premium channels and have a "No Smoking" red sign when I "Pick Recordings to Transfer" in TiVo Desktop.

*copy freely* recordings I assume are the ones I'm able to select and "Start Transfer".


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah WTV replaced DVR-MS in Win 7. If you right click a copy freely show in Win 7 you are given the option to convert to DVR-MS.

Correct on the copy once, copy freely. 

Copy never means you can't even record it.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> Copy never means you can't even record it.


I thought that the ''copy never'' flag allowed recording, but would automatically delete after a set period of time. 
Or is that just a more restrictive "copy once"?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> *Season Passes*: Here I give the win to Media Center for the most part. I haven't had any accuracy issues with Media Center, but I have read they do happen. They also don't offer any form of episode guide so you lose the season and episode number that the Premiere displays in their HDUI. Of course this is dependent on Zap2it which isn't always accurate.
> 
> The reason I give Media Center the win though is the options. Media Center offers a form of Season Pass combined with Wishlists. For shows you can pick the channel or HD only, HD Preferred, SD Only, SD Preferred. You can restrict season passes to timeslot which helps for shows that repeat with bad guide data like the Soup. You can also add padding that will only happen if nothing else conflicts with the recording.
> 
> Along with this they offer conflict management options. When browsing the to do list, you can see what won't record and address it there. You can just fix it for that one time or go into a tool that will fix it for all future instances.


WMC does have some options here that make it better, but IMO Tivo's advanced WL's with boolean search provide a powerful way to handle recordings of certain shows, like sports. I have multiple ARWLs setup for NASCAR, F1, IndyCar, MotoGP, AMA Pro (gee, you think I like racing? ) that only gets me the races - not qualifying, not practice, not specific sub-series that I don't want (e.g. Craftsman Trucks or Motocross), all by putting in mandatory or negatory keywords. It works year after year no matter which channel or time these come on.
Other people have done ARWLs using the Tupper method to screen out shows that have bad (generic) guide data, which are almost always repeats that were not flagged correctly. I don't bother with this and just delete the bad recordings, but it is handy.

WMC can't touch this. I know it's a niche, but a very good one for Tivo.

Agree that Tivo's conflict management is almost non-existent and abysmal compared to WMC.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Basically the same as any roll-your-own consumer built device vs an off-the-shelf item - with one exception: it's weird but true that the TiVo is easier to hack.


I'm curious as to what you think needs to be hacked in an HTPC. It pretty much does everything a hacked Tivo can do by default. I suppose you're referring to the additional tweaks and hacks that can be performed on a stock Media Center PC to improve performance and enhance the overall experience. I would hardly think that having to replace and reprogram a surface-mount EEPROM could even remotely be considered easier than hacking a PC. You forgot to mention that every time your Tivo gets an OS update you have to go back and rehack your Tivo because the update wipes out all of your installed hacks. There are methods to minimize this effort, but the fact remains that it still has to be done every time.

Here are a few clarifications regarding HTPCs vs. Tivos:

DRM issues - the copy-once flag is set by the provider. If it's flaggd for a Tivo it's also flagged for an HTPC. With an HTPC you still have the ability to stream it to media extenders in other rooms.

Program sources - both HTPCs and Tivos can access internet content like NetFlix, Hulu, and YouTube. An HTPC just has more options whereas a Tivo is limited to whatever Tivo already has included in their current OS. Personally, I don't care about these sources because in the grand scheme of things the quality they offer is crap compared to the original feed from my provider or what I can get on Blu-Ray. I suppose people like them for the convenience they offer. Either that or they haven't migrated to HDTV yet.

Program transfer and streaming - There have been various apps mentioned to permit transfer of files between a Tivo and a PC. With an HTPC, all you need to do is set up the HTPC for folder sharing and map the drive on your network. Open Windopws Explorer and copy, transfer, or delete whatever you want with no hacking or special software required. Media extenders allow you to stream recorded content or live TV to any room in the house. The one major caveat with extenders is their lack of codec support for commonly used types of video formats.

Front end applications - With Tivo you have the Tivo interface and that's it. With an HTPC you have choices of programs like Windows Media Center, XBMC, JRiver Media Center, MythTV, and several others. All front end programs don't necessarily share the same functionality so you have to weigh the features that are important to you.

Tuners - This is the area where an HTPC completely outshines any Tivo. With a Tivo, you're limited to two tuners, although there are reports of a quad-tuner model being introduced, but it's based on the Premiere IIRC (my least favorite Tivo model to date). With a Windows Media Center PC, you can have four of each of the following types of tuners by default - QAM, ATSC, and digital cable or FIOS. With an app called Tuner Salad you can increase the tuner limit to twelve tuners of each type.

The latest Ceton firmware versions allow you to use a tuner sharing app such that you can install multiple tuners in one PC and assign them to other PCs on your network. The assigned tuners are dedicated to that PC and are not available for use in other PCs once they've been assigned. OTOH, the SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime has three or six networked tuners that can be used by any PC on your network that has been configured for use with them. Currently, Windows Media Center is the only front-end application that has been approved for use with cablecard tuners, although there was a workaround that would let you use the Ceton InfiniTV4 with SageTV.

Commercial skipping - Tivo has the 30-second skip. HTPCs have the option to install software that will map commercials and skip past them automatically during playback with no operator intervention required. It's not perfect, which is why I opted to configure ShowAnalyzer to let me skip the commercial manually using the right arrow button on my remote. One quick press and I'm watching the next segment of the show. I prefer it because it allows me to screen commercials and decide if I want to watch them.

Blu-Ray playback - Sorry, but Tivo owners aren't able to do this. With an HTPC, you can integrate a third party app, like Cyberlink's PowerDVD or Arcsoft's Total Media Theater, right into Media Center. Just browse to the folder where you've got your ripped Blu-Ray movies or the Blu-Ray disc inserted in the integral Blu-Ray drive installed in the PC. Select it and start playback with full 1080P and DTS-HD or Dolby True-HD audio bitstreamed to your preamp/processor or A/V receiver via HDMI.

Gaming - Again, Tivo owners can't do this.

Internet - Sorry, Tivo, but you lose once again. While Tivos do have internet access, you can't surf the web with a Tivo.

PC functions - Tivo owners already know the answer to this one. Imagine posting to these forums with a wireless keyboard on a 60" screen while relaxing in your recliner.

Storage capacity - Tivos can be upgraded to increase capacity, but only to a certain degree. HTPCs have no limit on how many drives you can install. You also have the option of using an external storage device, like an NAS enclosure or a dedicated server.

Cost of ownership - I won't rehash this because it's been done to death. A Tivo with lifetime vs. an HTPC with multiple tuners is not a straight 1:1 comparison simply because you can spend a lot of money on an HTPC and a Tivo is a fixed price. Suffice it to say that if you decide to cancel your Tivo subscription you now have a nice doorstop. You're also locked into at least a one-year commitment with the Premiere, unless you want to fork out $500 for a lifetime sub. With an HTPC you still have a PC that can be tasked for other purposes. There is no cost for guide data or DVR functionality with an HTPC and therefore also no commitments.

Setup - I've only used Windows Media Center and BeyondTV in addition to a Tivo and numerous other DVRs. WMC and Tivos differ very little with regards to setup. You go through a series of menus and follow the onscreen prompts and that's pretty much all there is to it.

Minimum requirements - This pertains only to HTPCs since Tivos are a fixed configuration. The recommended minimum for an HTPC is a dual core CPU running at 2GHz and 2GB of RAM, although CPU running as low as 1.6GHz have been reported to work perfectly fine. If you want to bitstream HD audio then you'll need one of the current ATI or nVidia graphics cards with HDMI output or an Intel motherboard setup with an 1155 or 1156 socket and compatible CPU. The Intel setup can output HD graphics and bitstream HD audio with no additional sound or graphics cards required.

3D capability - Tivo owners need not even bother with this. HTPCs can be configured for 3D capability with the right motherboard and graphics card.

Ease of use - This is where a Tivo has a clearcut advantage. Let's face it, a Tivo is a standalone device with basically a singular function. An HTPC is, well, a PC and is therefore prone to the same issues as any Windows PC. If you're using the Linux-based MythTV then you probably don't have the same issues. I'm surprised the Tivo hacking gurus here aren't using MythTV because they already have the expertise to set it up. Surprisingly, Macs aren't really used for HTPCs, although they do have the AppleTV box which I know next to nothing about. If you want convenience and like to be on the safe side, stick with a Tivo. If you like to experiment and tinker and expand your horizons, check out what you can do with an HTPC. Chances are you already have a PC with Media Center so all you need to get started is to install a tuner and run Media Center setup.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

I always thought that Windows Media Player can stream videos over the network... Maybe I'm confusing it with something else.

What is legacy support like? Can you open .dvr-ms or .wtv in Windows XP? Or do you need to download some other third party software?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> Are there other HTPC softwares you can launch instead of the built-in _Windows Media Center_?


You may want to look at JRiver Media Center.

http://jriver.com/

I downloaded and installed the trial copy last weekend. It doesn't seem very intuitive to me but does seem to have a lot of options. You should look at least look at it.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks for all the great input and experience sharing. 

Another question about the "multitasking" feature of a HTPC... So far most of you seem to talk about Hulu, Netflix, etc. in a WMC vs. TiVo firmware comparison. But no one mentioned anything about just opening an internet browser on the HTPC to accomplish this. Is it THAT bad to background WMC? I mean, maybe "Crysis" is a little pushing it, I admit. But I don't think a "Flash Player" is that intensive, right? What about something simple like FaceBook? Email? What would happen if you're recording? It will skip? Does WMC have "priority" that works? What would happen if more ppl start accessing share folder simply transfering the files? Would that cause "skip" or something?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

I think that is largely dependent on your PC. I have a quad core desktop for comparson purposes (Phenom ll X4 820 (P) 2.8 GHz) and I have no issues.

I have been recording 2 programss over my HDHomerun at the same time I've been transferring programs from my TiVoHD, running VideoReDo to cut commercials and browsing on the internet.

EDIT: You can also up the priority of WMC through Task Mgr. and lower other application's priorities if you need.


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## dolphin (Dec 3, 2007)

Well, here's how we came at it. I had a reasonably newer Win 7 laptop connected directly to the network (not wireless). I bought a Homerun HD from Woot for the tuner capability. The Homerun HD is connected to OTA. I hooked the laptop to the kitchen/dining TV where we had nothing before.

This was a trial to see how the *family* would react to WMC vs. Tivo.

Our family includes 3 kids under age 10, my wife who is not at all technical, and myself ... relatively technically comfortable.

I set the laptop up to have Win 7 WMC pretty much out of the box with no add-ons. I set it to not auto-download anything, as I didn't want random Windows "balloons" popping up.

Conclusion: After a few months now, my wife and kids told me that they don't like the laptop Win 7 WMC: "we like TiVo lots better than that _thing_". Note the rest of the family does not include financial aspects when making their decision.

Some details: Things they like: (1) Streaming from a server disk, where we've got all the Caillou cartoons you'd ever want. Most of those were TiVo'd and videoredo'd to remove commercials. (2) easy accessible USB. After kids events, we can easily plug in the camera or Flip and the kids can have fun looking at pics/video of themselves at soccer or ballet recitals.

Why they rejected WMC: (1) They are used to the TiVo interface. WMC is different. (2) No matter how much you try, you still get Windows balloon popups .... Adobe, Java, Flash, etc... (3) the laptop would sometimes have network trouble with the Homerun HD (sure, my sys_admin problem, but reflected poorly on the setup), (4) on the few recordings that we had set up, sometimes it would just miss something. I believe it was related to the networked Homerun tuner. And more than likely, not the networked tuner, but something related to my network/router. (5) the laptop going to sleep created problems (again, sys_admin stuff).

Use this information as you wish for setting up your own in-home experiment. If I had to do it over again, I would not use a laptop as the experimental device. I would have a dedicated tuner card or at least a USB tuner. I would better compare apples to apples for the channels; inotherwords, I was comparing Tivo-connected-to-cable with WMC-connected-to-OTA. Not a good idea.

The idea to experiment with Win7 WMC (add tuner) was a good one. Just be sure you think about how the networking can influence your family's reaction to WMC.

Good luck.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Are there any limitations to "USB tuners"? I always thought USB was for "slow" transfer things. Like it even makes your external storage slow relative to internal hardware.


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## yoheidiho (Mar 31, 2011)

rasmasyean said:


> Can you open .dvr-ms or .wtv in Windows XP? Or do you need to download some other third party software?


VLC plays .wtv files without any issues. You can down load it for free from http://www.videolan.org/vlc/


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## yoheidiho (Mar 31, 2011)

My wife prefers the Tivo. I on the other hand think WMC is the better choice.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dolphin said:


> Conclusion: After a few months now, my wife and kids told me that they don't like the laptop Win 7 WMC: "we like TiVo lots better than that _thing_". Note the rest of the family does not include financial aspects when making their decision.


I had the same result with my family. None of them are particularly technically minded and just want to watch TV. They actually prefer a cable box to the Tivo.



> (2) No matter how much you try, you still get Windows balloon popups .... Adobe, Java, Flash, etc...


Try changing your User Access Control (UAC) settings. I've never had a popup occur in Media Center in the entire time I've used it.



> (3) the laptop would sometimes have network trouble with the Homerun HD (sure, my sys_admin problem, but reflected poorly on the setup),


Definitely sounds like a network issue and not the HDHR.



> (4) on the few recordings that we had set up, sometimes it would just miss something. I believe it was related to the networked Homerun tuner. And more than likely, not the networked tuner, but something related to my network/router.


That would be my guess.



> (5) the laptop going to sleep created problems (again, sys_admin stuff).


I've heard enough issues with HTPCs and sleep mode that I keep mine on 24/7. With a laptop I think it does it automatically to conserve power.



> The idea to experiment with Win7 WMC (add tuner) was a good one. Just be sure you think about how the networking can influence your family's reaction to WMC.


HTPCs are great for the hobbyist but not so much for the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) or the rest of the family unless they're willing to embrace a new technology. This is why I would recommend a Tivo for those households and an HTPC for those with a more open mind.



rasmasyean said:


> Are there any limitations to "USB tuners"? I always thought USB was for "slow" transfer things. Like it even makes your external storage slow relative to internal hardware.


USB 2.0 transfer rates can easily handle multiple HD streams simultaneously. The USB 2.0 transfer rate is 480 Mbps whereas a single ATSC stream can theoretically be as high as 19.4 Mbps. In reality, most ATSC broadcast streams max out at less than 10 Mbps. Digital cable can be as high as 38.8 Mbps, but is also much lower in real life. I've had as many as six USB ATSC tuners recording simultaneously with no problems.

Wtv files are the Windows 7 Media Center recorded format. Dvr-ms is for Vista and XP. If you right-click on a wtv file in Win 7 you will get a pop-up menu with an option to convert the wtv file to dvr-ms. The latest version of VideoReDo works directly with wtv files if you need a way to edit them. Otherwise, you can convert them to dvr-ms and then edit with an older version of VRD. I have heard that using the Win 7 converter can mess with the audio and cause a 5.1 soundtrack to revert to stereo. There is a free utility that enables you to convert wtv files to dvr-ms and keep the 5.1 audio intact.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

WMC doesn't have decent extenders. There are virtually...zero WMC extenders on the market other than the Xbox. And the Xbox doesn't make for a great extender between the boot-up time, noise, power usage, size and even price.


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## yoheidiho (Mar 31, 2011)

trip1eX said:


> WMC doesn't have decent extenders.


My Linksys extender, although old, works fine.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> WMC doesn't have decent extenders. There are virtually...zero WMC extenders on the market other than the Xbox. And the Xbox doesn't make for a great extender between the boot-up time, noise, power usage, size and even price.


That all depends on your point of view. A Windows media extender is meant to be used for viewing recorded video from a primary Windows PC running Media Center. It's also used for viewing live TV, listening to music, viewing digital photos, and watching a limited variety of video files. They all work exactly as intended for this purpose, and they all work quite well in this regard.

Most people are disenchanted with extenders because they want them to do more than they were designed for. The only issues I ever had with extenders were mostly network related or due to issues with the PC they were connected to. The extenders themselves were never the problem.

FWIW, the latest slim XBox 360's are quieter and uses less power than earlier models. The XBox takes only a fraction of the time to boot that a Tivo does. It's also way faster than my old HD-DVD player in this regard. People are just too impatient these days to wait for anything. An XBox 4GB Slim retails for $199. Media Center extenders used to retail for much more when they first came out.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Why is it that you can't use another PC as a Windows Media Extender? It seems like it's just a software issue. Does it have to do with some strange DRM or something? So if you want to have a HTPC in another room, you would have to basically get another cablecard? And even then, you would still not be able to "stream" any recordings (copy once aside) from the "main" HTPC.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

rasmasyean said:


> Why is it that you can't use another PC as a Windows Media Extender? It seems like it's just a software issue. Does it have to do with some strange DRM or something? So if you want to have a HTPC in another room, you would have to basically get another cablecard? And even then, you would still not be able to "stream" any recordings (copy once aside) from the "main" HTPC.


The reason being is the extender uses a Remote Desktop Protocol to work. If you RDP into a PC running Media Center, Media Center will actually close.

You have the part backwords. If it is copy freely, you can share the folder over your network and any PC can view those shows assuming they support WTV files.

Copy Once recordings are tied to the machine that recorded them, but you can use official extenders to view them since the original machine would be what is playing back the protected recordings.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

AND...the actual "Remote Desktop Protocol" is software that runs on a *PC*, right? Like if someone from India is going to fix your problem, he's not going to access your PC with an XBox.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

rasmasyean said:


> Thanks for all the great input and experience sharing.
> 
> Another question about the "multitasking" feature of a HTPC... So far most of you seem to talk about Hulu, Netflix, etc. in a WMC vs. TiVo firmware comparison. But no one mentioned anything about just opening an internet browser on the HTPC to accomplish this. Is it THAT bad to background WMC? I mean, maybe "Crysis" is a little pushing it, I admit. But I don't think a "Flash Player" is that intensive, right? What about something simple like FaceBook? Email? What would happen if you're recording? It will skip? Does WMC have "priority" that works? What would happen if more ppl start accessing share folder simply transfering the files? Would that cause "skip" or something?


I use the Web interface to Netflix all of the time. It's far superior than the WMC support for searching for movies and finding content to put into my instant queue. It is NOT a problem to Alt-F4 (close) WMC and do this. WMC is actually several processes and the one that handles the scheduling and recording runs in the background. On my system it's completely unaffected by using Netflix through the Web. Since the two use different resources I doubt there would be any problem with any modern PC.

Also I can use Netflix while streaming to two extenders without a problem. It's very slick but I'd make sure you have a decent network to do this. No WiFi here. 

Other web duty shouldn't phase it at all. You shouldn't have a problem doing many things on your WMC computer while recording goes on in the background. But again, I strongly recommend a dedicated AV drive.

How much you can do on one PC really comes down to the hardware, software and how it's configured.

I did have skipping and recording issues when I first built my WMC computer but that was due to Intel's crappy RAID drivers. Intel has since made huge improvements to their RAID drivers and things are smooth as silk. (The RAID drivers would sometimes take nearly a second to service a request for no reason at all.. Complete buggery!)


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> WMC doesn't have decent extenders. There are virtually...zero WMC extenders on the market other than the Xbox. And the Xbox doesn't make for a great extender between the boot-up time, noise, power usage, size and even price.


It's true that there's only really one game in town when it comes to extenders. I use the XBox 360 Slim 4GB. No hard drive, pretty quiet and starts up pretty quickly too. The only thing that it does is boot straight into extender mode.

And regarding WAF. I have family visiting me and they press a button on the Logitech Harmony remote and they're good to go. It's easier for them then the remote chaos they have at home.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

rasmasyean said:


> Why is it that you can't use another PC as a Windows Media Extender? It seems like it's just a software issue. Does it have to do with some strange DRM or something? So if you want to have a HTPC in another room, you would have to basically get another cablecard? And even then, you would still not be able to "stream" any recordings (copy once aside) from the "main" HTPC.


Its DRM. Microsoft doesn't want an uncontrolled device to be getting a media stream.

Also regarding hackability... The older TiVos can be hacked to disable/ignore CCI values. This is why it's "easier" to "hack" a TiVo. People know how to do it. It's probably possible to hack the heck out of Windows DRM too but MS has definitely made it an uphill battle. Plus I personally lack the motivation since I can do everything I want to with WMC/TV as-is.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> That all depends on your point of view. A Windows media extender is meant to be used for viewing recorded video from a primary Windows PC running Media Center. It's also used for viewing live TV, listening to music, viewing digital photos, and watching a limited variety of video files. They all work exactly as intended for this purpose, and they all work quite well in this regard.
> 
> Most people are disenchanted with extenders because they want them to do more than they were designed for. The only issues I ever had with extenders were mostly network related or due to issues with the PC they were connected to. The extenders themselves were never the problem.
> 
> FWIW, the latest slim XBox 360's are quieter and uses less power than earlier models. The XBox takes only a fraction of the time to boot that a Tivo does. It's also way faster than my old HD-DVD player in this regard. People are just too impatient these days to wait for anything. An XBox 4GB Slim retails for $199. Media Center extenders used to retail for much more when they first came out.


I have a latest SLIM. It's still noisey and power hungry. ONly when compared to the old Xbox is it quiet and efficient.

It's also fairly expensive, bulky and takes a while to boot up.

IF you don't mind this then hey it's great.

But after owning an Apple TV i see no reason why there shouldn't be a $99 or less WMC extender the size of a hockey puck, noise free, power efficient, etc.

It's a glaring hole in a WMC setup.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I have a latest SLIM. It's still noisey and power hungry. ONly when compared to the old Xbox is it quiet and efficient.
> 
> It's also fairly expensive, bulky and takes a while to boot up.
> 
> ...


Nobody ever said that extenders are perfect. While the UI on an XBox is better than most older extenders, you might want to check out one of the HP x280n extenders if you can find one. Of all of the WMC extenders it is by far my favorite. It's dead quiet, boots up quickly, and uses very little power. It also has a much smaller footprint than the XBox.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

tivohaydon said:


> Its DRM. Microsoft doesn't want an uncontrolled device to be getting a media stream.


I still don't see what's the IP threat difference is between having a "copy once" video on a primary HTPC...vs...streaming it to an extender HTPC. If anything, the original copy is easier to hack than the stream. Just the fact that they have a copy on a computer is already worse then having it on a TiVo. TiVo is not very common in the wild. EVERYONE practically uses Windows to an extent. Therefore, it's much more likely that ppl will try to distribute .wtv files...as well as the "protected" ones.

And I'm sure MS would like the extra market for Windows (prolly costs $5 to box) which often sells for MORE than an XBox (and prolly costs > $200 to manufacture).


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> FWIW, the latest slim XBox 360's are quieter and uses less power than earlier models. The XBox takes only a fraction of the time to boot that a Tivo does. It's also way faster than my old HD-DVD player in this regard. People are just too impatient these days to wait for anything. An XBox 4GB Slim retails for $199. Media Center extenders used to retail for much more when they first came out.


Yes, but they still take too much power to leave on all the time and also take ~45 seconds to boot into WMC, so 'impatient' means 'I can't watch TV when I turn the damn thing on' to the wife.

The Linksys extenders are still readily available for less than $100 on fleabay and do not have this issue - can be left on all the time cuz they draw less than 10 watts and are completely silent.

I LIKE Xboxes for all the other stuff you get with them, but they are not optimal extenders. Sad, really - looks like the WMC Embedded devices are going nowhere too after the announcements early this year.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

I've owned TiVo since 2002 and sold my last functioning one in 2010. I'm now on Windows media center.



rasmasyean said:


> Here are some initial questions that come to my mind:
> 
> So what are some of the differences between going HTPC vs. TiVo?


Media center advantages:
No monthly fees
Easier to export/share/automatically convert/stream shows
Easier to add home videos and videos obtained from other sources
More tuners (up to 4 per type, I have 4 cablecard+4 OTA in mine)
You can get as much hardware as you want and space is limited to what you can add to your HTPC
Media center has the ability to go to sleep when not recording/watching live TV and automatically wake up to record/watch TV saving you $$ on your power bill. 
True whole house DVR with extenders (unified guide/recording schedule, watch in one room, pause and resume in another, share tuners on different TVs)
Can integrate outside internet TV sources easily (free hulu for example)
Allows the use of full size keyboards, mice or remotes on main HTPC
Ability to burn DVDs of recorded shows easily
Can rip, compress and archive DVDs with a plugin

That's just the few off the top of my head

TiVo advantages:
Easier to setup (most HTPCs are DIY)
Cheaper upfront cost 
Better supported by cable companies
Linux platform so it doesn't crash like Windows can (although my HTPC has been extremely stable under windows 7)
Suggestions
More support from external services integrated into the TiVo UI
Smaller footprint
Uses less power when on (but has to stay on all the time)
TiVo slide remote is nice



> Are there other HTPC softwares you can launch instead of the built-in _Windows Media Center_?


There are other DVR software packages such as MythTV and Sage. They don't integrate with Windows media center however.



> What does the XBox do? Allow you to stream "live TV" to another room?


You can use it as an "extender" which means that it has most of the media center functions - stream live and recorded TV, videos, photos, music, program the guide etc.



> Can you stream "live TV" to a normal computer running _WMC _or some other software?


Sorta. Cablelabs updated their spec allowing CableCARD tuners to be shared. So you can get a HDHomeRun Prime or Ceton InfiniTV and share them across PCs.



> You can stream any *recording* from a HTPC via _Windows Media *Player*_ right?


Yes.



> My TiVo does not allow premium channels to be transferred via _TiVo Desktop_. Will a _WMC _be any different? Can you break the protection in the HTPC (like many other PC files) and "transfer" it anywhere you want, including burn it to a DVD?


I think the answer to that is no. That is a CableLabs limitation and the DRM is enforced very strictly.



> Does _WMC _take a lot to run? For example, what kind of HTPC do you need to multitask _WMC _watching TV while playing say..._Crysis _(on a separate screen).


I have it running on a Core i3 Clarkdale with 4GB. If you're playing Crysis you may want something faster.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

rasmasyean said:


> Why is it that you can't use another PC as a Windows Media Extender?


Because Microsoft doesn't want to.

Media center is its bastard stepchild. It has a small but vocal fan base but Microsoft doesn't seem to want to do much with it other than "TV on your PC."


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yes, but they still take too much power to leave on all the time and also take ~45 seconds to boot into WMC, so 'impatient' means 'I can't watch TV when I turn the damn thing on' to the wife.
> 
> The Linksys extenders are still readily available for less than $100 on fleabay and do not have this issue - can be left on all the time cuz they draw less than 10 watts and are completely silent.
> 
> I LIKE Xboxes for all the other stuff you get with them, but they are not optimal extenders. Sad, really - looks like the WMC Embedded devices are going nowhere too after the announcements early this year.


I guess it's the question of value. Do you want to rent another TiVo, or just a cheap plain cable box with no recording sharing, or do you want pay up front for XBox but waste electricity to get the same response...but also watch a whole bunch of other personally owned videos including DVD's. Does XBox do Blue Ray too?

I guess ultimately (assuming you're OK with DIY), it's TiVo for channel flippers, and XBox for time-shifters.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> Or on the Tivo, only select HD channels as being received. That's what I do.


Doesn't work for channels where the HD version doesn't mirror the SD version - which is about half of the HD channels I have 



> No, thanks.


SD only is great for news programs or other content where I don't need the humungous disk use of HD programs.

This is a serious deficiency and the only reason I can't think of Tivo not letting you specify which quality to prefer (HD vs. SD) is someone has it patented. At least I hope they aren't this stupid on purpose 

Your other objections to his pro's are purely preference - which is OK. My biggest objection to Media Center is, even counting in the cost of a Tivo plus Lifetime at $500, Media Center is just too expensive. You can easily spend $1,000 in hardware for a decent Media Center and if you try really hard you can get close to the $500 for a Tivo - and in the end the guide data and overall experience isn't as reliable.

So I stick it out with Tivo until streaming matures and I can ditch cable and just go à la carte.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> An XBox 4GB Slim retails for $199. Media Center extenders used to retail for much more when they first came out.


And you can get refurbs for under $150 routinely.

Hmm... now I'm wondering if I shouldn't have ordered the Premiere and instead built a Media Center box. I wonder if the new Windows Home Server will work as a media center recorder in addition to a server? That would be the way to go. Drat! I may send that Tivo back!


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yes, but they still take too much power to leave on all the time and also take ~45 seconds to boot into WMC, so 'impatient' means 'I can't watch TV when I turn the damn thing on' to the wife.


I remember the days of CRT TVs that didn't have an "instant-on" feature and took well over a minute to warm up and display an image. It just shows how spoiled we've become as a society. I guess having patience puts me in a class all by myself these days.



Raj said:


> TiVo advantages:
> 
> Smaller footprint


There are lots of new mini-ITX motherboards and compact cases that allow you to build a basic HTPC that's much smaller than a Tivo. A Dell Zino HD is much smaller in width and depth but is about 2 inches taller. Zotac and ASRock, among others, have off-the-shelf mini-ITX HTPCs that would be a perfect match for the new external cablecard tuners. They're all about the same size as an AppleTV box.



rasmasyean said:


> Does XBox do Blue Ray too?


No, and it's highly unlikely that it ever will. If you recall, Microsoft was a backer of the HD-DVD format so chances are pretty slim they'd ever support Blu-Ray. However, there are inexpensive media players that will stream ripped Blu-Rays in folder format and possibly iso's as well.



DocNo said:


> And you can get refurbs for under $150 routinely.
> 
> Hmm... now I'm wondering if I shouldn't have ordered the Premiere and instead built a Media Center box. I wonder if the new Windows Home Server will work as a media center recorder in addition to a server? That would be the way to go. Drat! I may send that Tivo back!


If you're already running Windows 7 then it's just a matter of adding a tuner and running Media Center setup. You can always try it out and see how you like it before taking the plunge and building a dedicated WMC PC. That's pretty much how I got started. Funny thing is I never thought I'd have a use for an HTPC. Now I can't picture myself without one.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

DocNo said:


> My biggest objection to Media Center is, even counting in the cost of a Tivo plus Lifetime at $500, Media Center is just too expensive. You can easily spend $1,000 in hardware for a decent Media Center and if you try really hard you can get close to the $500 for a Tivo - and in the end the guide data and overall experience isn't as reliable.
> 
> So I stick it out with Tivo until streaming matures and I can ditch cable and just go à la carte.


I already had a PC that could handle it and it was only $220 to grab the Ceton InfiniTV4 due to a sale so it was a no brainer here.

You can definitely get close though especially if you consider you can get a dual tuner for $149 which if you figure $550 for the TiVo leaves you $400 for the PC. If you shop around you can find deals for PCs at that price, HP for $399. Of course we have had this debate before.

The real comparison will be when we see the Elite with lifetime compared to a HTPC with the Ceton InfiniTV4.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

DocNo said:


> Your other objections to his pro's are purely preference - which is OK. My biggest objection to Media Center is, even counting in the cost of a Tivo plus Lifetime at $500, Media Center is just too expensive. You can easily spend $1,000 in hardware for a decent Media Center and if you try really hard you can get close to the $500 for a Tivo - and in the end the guide data and overall experience isn't as reliable.


lrhorer's objections are more than a little prejudicial, IMHO. He's a huge Tivo fanboy and pretty much turns his nose up at any suggestion that something could actually be better than a Tivo. He's a moderator at the "other" Tivo forum in case anyone missed that. I guess you can't blame him for defending what he believes in. Still, an open mind is a wonderful thing.

I don't know what the projected price of the new quad-tuner Premiere will be, but I'm guessing with lifetime it will come pretty close to a barebones HTPC with a Ceton InfiniTV4. Under the current pricing structure, two dual-tuner Premieres with lifetime will run you about $1000-1100, depending on what Tivo charges for the 2nd lifetime sub. You can build a pretty good HTPC with a Ceton InfiniTV4 for that amount and probably still have some cash left over.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> lrhorer's objections are more than a little prejudicial, IMHO.


No, they are not. They are judicial, which is a completely different thing. They are based upon having tried or at least thoroughly investigated every alternative being critiqued. They are also based on more than 30 years of having to support brain-dead applications on brain-dead systems, and having long, long ago grown more than tired of it.



mr.unnatural said:


> He's a huge Tivo fanboy and pretty much turns his nose up at any suggestion that something could actually be better than a Tivo.


I'm not any sort of fanboy. Show me something superior, and I will acknowledge it, and possibly even buy it, although cash is extremely thin right now. I'm also not a particular fan of TiVo, the device or the corporation. The corporation is getting far, far too large. The Series II was a dog turd. The Premier sucks great big dead donkey who-haws. 'Doesn't sound like much of a fanboy, to me.

The Series III has some fairly serious flaws I wish TiVo would address, but they are unlikely to do so at this point. There are some systems that have a handful of features that would be nice on the TiVo, especially ReplayTV. I don't recommend buying a ReplayTV, however. Nor do I recommend any other platform which fails to provide any one of at least 5 or 6 deal breakers. At this point, I know of no other platform that does not fail on at least 3 of the deals.



mr.unnatural said:


> He's a moderator at the "other" Tivo forum in case anyone missed that.


Apparently you missed it. I am no such thing. I participate in the "other" forum, and have for 10 years or so. Nothing more, and my participation there is considerably less than my participation here. The "other" forum does not even have "TiVo" in its name, and is not even ostensibly dedicated to the TiVo platform. How being a moderator there, if I actually were, would be evidence of prejudice on my part escapes me.



mr.unnatural said:


> I guess you can't blame him for defending what he believes in. Still, an open mind is a wonderful thing.


I have an open mind. That in no way means I will accept that something that is useless, overpriced, and a major headache to manage is a viable platform when there are better, cheaper, easier to use alternatives.



mr.unnatural said:


> I don't know what the projected price of the new quad-tuner Premiere will be, but I'm guessing with lifetime it will come pretty close to a barebones HTPC with a Ceton InfiniTV4.


My recommendation: don't bother to buy either one. Both are garbage at this point in time.



mr.unnatural said:


> Under the current pricing structure, two dual-tuner Premieres with lifetime will run you about $1000-1100, depending on what Tivo charges for the 2nd lifetime sub.


My recommendation: don't buy a Premier. It's a hunk of junk.



mr.unnatural said:


> You can build a pretty good HTPC with a Ceton InfiniTV4 for that amount and probably still have some cash left over.


Or you can pick up a used S3 or THD, hack it, build a decent file server, and have a ton of cash left over, along with a system that is highly stable, very flexible, fast, easy to manage, holds hundreds of developers at one's fingertips, and can host upwards of 20,000 free applications.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DocNo said:


> Doesn't work for channels where the HD version doesn't mirror the SD version - which is about half of the HD channels I have


That would suck, but which channels for you carry other than the same content? I can't think of any here. There are quite a few that are SD only (boo, hiss!), but none whose HD version is any different in schedule or content than the SD version. There might be some of which I am unaware, of course.



DocNo said:


> SD only is great for news programs or other content where I don't need the humungous disk use of HD programs.


With 2T drives to be had for under $80, HD usage is just not that big a deal. I also don't record that much in the way of news programs. I only have two daily season passes for weather, and I sometimes watch the news around 22:00, but those don't represent any significant amount of drive space.

I am definitely a big fan of keeping a video server on the LAN and transferring any "important" shows to it.



DocNo said:


> This is a serious deficiency and the only reason I can't think of Tivo not letting you specify which quality to prefer (HD vs. SD) is someone has it patented. At least I hope they aren't this stupid on purpose


Not at all. If you are really that uptight over the matter, then use a wishlist or suggestions to record those programs, rather than a Season Pass.



DocNo said:


> Your other objections to his pro's are purely preference - which is OK. My biggest objection to Media Center is, even counting in the cost of a Tivo plus Lifetime at $500, Media Center is just too expensive.


It is that. My biggest objection is that it is Windows.



DocNo said:


> So I stick it out with Tivo until streaming matures and I can ditch cable and just go à la carte.


I'll swap the moment that something better meets my requirements. Well, maybe not the very moment, but when I can afford it. Why would I switch to something, however, that fails to meet almost every one of my most important requirements?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

DocNo said:


> Hmm... now I'm wondering if I shouldn't have ordered the Premiere and instead built a Media Center box.


As I already said, my recommendation is neither.



DocNo said:


> I wonder if the new Windows Home Server will work as a media center recorder in addition to a server? That would be the way to go. Drat! I may send that Tivo back!


There is nothing easy about any version of Windows. I don't know about the new version, but I'm pretty sure WHS will not run WMC.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Raj said:


> I've owned TiVo since 2002 and sold my last functioning one in 2010. I'm now on Windows media center.
> 
> Media center advantages:
> No monthly fees


My TiVos have no monthly fees. No advantage to WMC. TiVo allows the buyer to amortize the cost of the platform over time, or to pay it in one lump sum. Advantage: TiVo

This really continues to puzzle me. How people can say that TiVo, which offers the buyer both purchasing avenues, is inferior to other vendors who offer only one is completely beyond me. With TiVo one has a choice: pay monthly fees or don't. How is not having a choice superior in any way?



Raj said:


> Easier to export/share/automatically convert/stream shows


False. Very little in the way of automation is ever easy on Windows. It's vastly easier on a Linux server and far more flexible.



Raj said:


> Easier to add home videos and videos obtained from other sources


False. It is not any more difficult to do this on a Linux server than WMC. One simply copies the files to the appropriate location. No advantage.



Raj said:


> More tuners (up to 4 per type, I have 4 cablecard+4 OTA in mine)


True, but what advantage is that? Now, this is a matter of preference, but I far prefer a distributed solution, with tuners spread across several devices. That way, when one fails, the others will continue to function until the failed unit is repaired or replaced. Given my current economic situation - and I am not alone here, I am sure, that may be a while. Once again, in my estimation, TiVo wins.

One thing in this vein, however, where TiVo fails is in its lack of cooperative scheduling. A four tuner device in this respect does have something of an advantage, but in my estimation this advantage is more than offset by the frailty of the eggs-in-one-basket approach.



Raj said:


> You can get as much hardware as you want


Within limits (seven TiVos per account, I think), one can do the same with TiVos. One does not add the hardware to a single unit, but as I mention above, I consider that an advantage. It also often makes it much more expensive to upgrade the system when one has to essentially replace the entire system (or at least the most expensive part by far) all at once.



Raj said:


> and space is limited to what you can add to your HTPC


The same is true of a Linux server, and it's easier to add space to a Linux server.



Raj said:


> Media center has the ability to go to sleep when not recording/watching live TV and automatically wake up to record/watch TV saving you $$ on your power bill.


Well, that may be nice, depending on just how much power the unit draws and how often one records with it. Having 4 tuners (or in your case 8, or as your comment concerning adding hardware suggests, even more) would seem to suggest recording a fair amount of the time. One or the other of my TiVos is usually recording throughout the day and night. It's not difficult to put together a WMC server that draws as much power as 3 or more TiVos, and if it is recording virtually 24 x 7, then this is no advantage. OTOH, its rather difficult to put together a WMC server that doesn't use at least as much power as 2 TiVos.



Raj said:


> True whole house DVR with extenders (unified guide/recording schedule, watch in one room, pause and resume in another, share tuners on different TVs)


This is marginal. I don't ever watch "live" TV, and I don't really recommend that anyone else do so, either. With MRV, one can start watching in a second room where one left off in the first room. It's certainly not something I ever use, nor do I see it is an important feature. I most definitely put in in the "bells and whistles" category.



Raj said:


> Can integrate outside internet TV sources easily (free hulu for example)


Hulu is not free. It is 100% paid for by the consumer. The consumer has no choice in the matter, but that does not make it "free".



Raj said:


> Allows the use of full size keyboards, mice or remotes on main HTPC


The TiVo can do this, as well, but I do not consider it an advantage, at all. In any case, there is certainly no advantage to the WMC.



Raj said:


> Ability to burn DVDs of recorded shows easily


This is not any easier with WHC than any other platform. Again, no advantage. The actual disadvantage is for the WHC, though. If the CCI byte is 0x01 or more, you're hosed. Anyone who thinks the number of MSOs that deploy 0x00 CCI bytes on anything other than the locals is going to decrease is living in fantasy land.



Raj said:


> Can rip, compress and archive DVDs with a plugin


pyTivo has done this for quite some years. Again, no advantage.

Edit: pyTiVo does not do the ripping or compression. It can pull or push raw DVD rips.



Raj said:


> That's just the few off the top of my head


How about a few that are actually advantages?



Raj said:


> TiVo advantages:
> Easier to setup (most HTPCs are DIY)


I disagree, actually. Setting up a TiVo system properly takes a fair bit of work, but when done, it is a far, far more flexible and usable platform.



Raj said:


> Cheaper upfront cost


This is highly variable. Certainly a single TiVo is less expensive than a WMC with a Ceton card, but then a single, unmodified, unaccompanied TiVo is really not all that much more than a fancy, expensive doorstop.



Raj said:


> Better supported by cable companies


<gulp> I can't imagine anything being more poorly supported than a TiVo. If true, it's remarkable, indeed. 'Not that I care, personally. CATV companies and their lousy support can go @#%% themselves, as far as I am concerned.



Raj said:


> Linux platform so it doesn't crash like Windows can (although my HTPC has been extremely stable under windows 7)


That's about #5 on my list of deal-killer requirements. It's also related to #1 and #2: open source and able to be modified by the user. None of my Linux systems has ever crashed in more than 5 years of use, unless you count a motherboard and power supply that burned up or the occasional extended power outage that exhausts the UPS.



Raj said:


> Suggestions


That's about #4.



Raj said:


> More support from external services integrated into the TiVo UI


That's about #3.



Raj said:


> Smaller footprint


Mm. Maybe. One can load WMC on a very tiny PC. That, and my servers are anything bit small footprint. They occupy a 7ft bay. This one's pretty far down my list, in any case.



Raj said:


> Uses less power when on (but has to stay on all the time)


For many people this might be true. I wish it were true in my case - my power bill is hideous, but it wouldn't be any less if I were running WMC and WHS instead of Linux. I'd still have 30 hard drives and 4 enclosures.



Raj said:


> TiVo slide remote is nice


Pfft. No, thanks. I almost never do anything on my TiVos that begs for a keyboard, especially not a tiny one.



Raj said:


> There are other DVR software packages such as MythTV and Sage. They don't integrate with Windows media center however.


They don't support the Ceton card, however, at least not the last time I checked.



Raj said:


> I think the answer to that is no. That is a CableLabs limitation and the DRM is enforced very strictly.


The only answer to this AFAIK is a Series III class TiVo and a soldering iron. Anything shy of this fails #1, #2, and #3 on my deal-killer list.

It's funny, most of the things you mention as advantages of the WMC system are not advantages, and many of the things you list as being an advantage of the TiVo are really better handled by WMC.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Well, there's a lot of bandwidth we'll never get back. That's got to be a record for line-by-line rebuttals, even for you.

FWIW, I apologize for thinking you were a mod at DDB. I must have misread your byline under your name the last time I visited there. I'm actually relieved to know they don't have you as a mod. I should have known Vadim would have more sense than to put you in charge.



lrhorer said:


> Apparently you missed it. I am no such thing. I participate in the "other" forum, and have for 10 years or so.


Unless you were participating under another name, you didn't join DDB until December of 2004, which means you were there for less than 7 years.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> I guess ultimately (assuming you're OK with DIY), it's TiVo for channel flippers, and XBox for time-shifters.


Nonsense. I don't *EVER* flip channels. I don't ever watch "channels". I have TiVos, and that makes the very concept obsolete.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Unless you were participating under another name, you didn't join DDB until December of 2004, which means you were there for less than 7 years.


OK, seven years or so. I don't keep chronological track of my internet browsing activities. The fact supports my position even better, however. I am no fanboy, I don't moderate any TiVo conference, and I am not opposed to the notion that there could be something better than the TiVo or in any way prejudiced toward the TiVo. I merely realize that Windows is a horrible, vastly overpriced, utterly detestable POS, and that there are far better, cheaper, easier to use options that someone can actually fix when broken.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> But after owning an Apple TV i see no reason why there shouldn't be a $99 or less WMC extender the size of a hockey puck, noise free, power efficient, etc.


Low noise and power is one thing, but I don't want anything that small or lightweight. I have several items that are, and they are a hassle.

Having a low profile is fine for some things, but having a small footprint is problematical. Items with a variable footprint do not stack well, and the smaller the footprint is, the more troublesome it is to try to manage the equipment stack. I would much prefer it if every item were rack mountable. Even if one does not use a rack, and instead stacks everything on shelves, it still makes it easier to arrange everything if the width is uniform and the depth doesn't vary much. It also looks much nicer. It also means if I purchase a new unit, I don't have to half take everything apart to stick the new unit in the middle - or worse on the bottom - of the stack. If the stack has a uniform footprint, I can probably just sit it on top.

It's also a pain dealing with items that are too light in weight. First of all, such items are not terribly stable. The friction which holds them in place is just not sufficient to keep them from sliding around. This is generally made worse by the fact the lightest units are usually at the top of the stack. In addition, when a box is too light it gets dragged around by the cables attached to it. I have a couple of switches, a wireless cable gateway, and a VOIP router that are all mere ounces in weight and that consequently keep getting dragged off their perches by the cables attached to them. Even the three Cisco TAs, which are a bit larger and heavier, tend to get dragged around by the RG-6 cables attached to them. (I've thought about getting some F-BNC adapters and going with 734 coax, rather than RG-6.)


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> I merely realize that Windows is a horrible, vastly overpriced, utterly detestable POS, and that there are far better, cheaper, easier to use options that someone can actually fix when broken.


While I can't argue with that statement in general, I will say that Windows 7 is by far the most stable release of Windows to date. It's also one of the most bloated pieces of software to ever hit the market. I'd love to see a completely stripped-down version with Media Center available as an add-on. Chances are it would be extremely stable without all of the detritus attached.

The fact is, unless you're a programming guru that lives in a command line world, Windows is most likely the OS you'll be using. The vast majority of us use Windows whether you like it or not. Windows is here to stay, so deal with it.

I'm no fan of Microsoft in any way, shape, or form. I use word processing programs of all types in my job and MS Word is the absolute worst POS for that purpose. Microsoft ought to pay us to use it instead of the other way around. At the very least they deserve to be sued for the pain and suffering it has caused most of us.

BTW, My HTPC is the only component in my home theater system besides my preamp/processor that resides on my equipment shelf. Having a small footprint generally makes it easier to integrate with any other components, tends to use less power, and also makes it easier to keep cool. Most people don't have a 30-disk server array mixed in with their other A/V hardware, let alone require anything to be rack mounted.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Can you choose the record quality with WMC?

I think when considering the &#8220;cost analysis&#8221; between TiVo and HTPC, it&#8217;s not really a straight apple to apple comparison. The TiVo will become obsolete. So will the HTPC, but because software is user controllable (Windows 8, MegaDVRware 2012, etc.), it prolly can have a longer lifespan, especially if you pay more for the hardware. Plus, a TiVo will become a doorstop as someone pointed out, while a WMC can be repurposed with little extra cost, if any at all. Plus, there&#8217;s the advantage that you can play &#8220;Crysis&#8221; on your large living room screen.

And why are you guys talking about Linux and bringing that into comparison. Is Linux a viable option at this point for building HTPC&#8217;s? I&#8217;ll tell you one thing, though&#8230;I wouldn&#8217;t trust &#8220;open source cable card software&#8221; to serve as my DVR software. I rather have Windows &#8220;crash&#8221; on occasion&#8230;although this is an overblown myth that is mostly caused by installation of gunk over time. 

And I don&#8217;t think Irhorer is a fanboi&#8230;he&#8217;s more a pessimist who hates EVERYTHING! lol


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

rasmasyean said:


> Can you choose the record quality with WMC?


You can't set the record quality with any digital channels on either TiVo or WMC. You can only do this with an analog tuner in which case you can set the recording quality. (Do you have any analog channels???)



rasmasyean said:


> And why are you guys talking about Linux and bringing that into comparison. Is Linux a viable option at this point for building HTPCs? Ill tell you one thing, thoughI wouldnt trust open source cable card software to serve as my DVR software. I rather have Windows crash on occasionalthough this is an overblown myth that is mostly caused by installation of gunk over time.


Linux has no support for CableCard (except for embedded devices like TiVo) because of the DRM issue. On a PC WMC is the only game in town for CableCard.

Microsoft has done a great job with Windows 7. It is very stable. Some third party drivers are garbage/borderline. I've dedicated a PC to WMC because I don't want to load it up with weirdware that will make it unstable or work incorrectly.

lrhorer is talking about hacked TiVo boxes when he makes his comparison. Unless you're willing to go through that most of his "plusses" have to be ignored.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> And why are you guys talking about Linux and bringing that into comparison. Is Linux a viable option at this point for building HTPCs? Ill tell you one thing, thoughI wouldnt trust open source cable card software to serve as my DVR software. I rather have Windows crash on occasionalthough this is an overblown myth that is mostly caused by installation of gunk over time.


While Linux does not support cablecard tuners, MythTV has been around for quite a while. Considering that the Tivo OS is also Linux it's a pretty reasonable comparison.



> And I dont think Irhorer is a fanboihes more a pessimist who hates EVERYTHING! lol


:up:


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> While Linux does not support cablecard tuners, MythTV has been around for quite a while. Considering that the Tivo OS is also Linux it's a pretty reasonable comparison.


OK, I'll modify my statement. No software that runs on Linux except for embedded devices has support for CableCard. This includes MythTV. See MythTV's own QA section for details:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Recording_Digital_Cable#Option_4:_CableCard_Tuner


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

trip1eX said:


> WMC doesn't have decent extenders. There are virtually...zero WMC extenders on the market other than the Xbox. And the Xbox doesn't make for a great extender between the boot-up time, noise, power usage, size and even price.


I have to disagree with this. Yes the Xbox is the only one. However the newer S models are smaller, quieter (almost silent as extender), use less power and boot quickly. I can hit the WMC button on remote and the 360 will power on and be at the WMC TV screen in 30 seconds. I will be interested to see the price comparison on a 360 S vs. TiVo Q. The 360 can be had on deals for $150 right now and will probably be that price permanently soon. I can't believe TiVo will be less than $99 and then there is still the issue of monthly fees possibly.

I have had TiVos since Sony Series 1 DTV model and still use a 1 TB S3. However I love my 6 tuner (2 OTA / 4 CC) WMC with unlimited storage.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

DocNo said:


> AI wonder if the new Windows Home Server will work as a media center recorder in addition to a server?


In a word, no. Microsoft doesn't seem to think this is a viable solution. It could be easily implemented since WHS v2 is really Windows Server 2008 R2 under the hood which is a very close relative of Windows 7. I think the worry is overloading the WHS box and while running WMC headless (like WHS) is possible 95%+ of the time with extenders there are times having a monitor on WMC is handy.


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## David Platt (Dec 13, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> FWIW, I apologize for thinking you were a mod at DDB. I must have misread your byline under your name the last time I visited there. I'm actually relieved to know they don't have you as a mod. I should have known Vadim would have more sense than to put you in charge.


Come on. It's possible to have a debate without resorting to personal attacks, something lrhorer has never done to my knowledge.


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

One other bit I will add my personal favorite feature with WMC is commercial skipping. It isn't built in but for $20 (I think) I added two utilities that do it for me. I am sure someone will chime in and say you can download shows from the TiVo run them through VideoReDo and the re-upload or stream them to the TiVo to accomplish the same. However I will argue that on WMC it is quicker and cleaner since I am not moving the shows around.

I still have my S3 since it is on lifetime and works, only cost is $4 a month for CC. However if today having nothing to start with I would build a WMC and buy a 360 rather than two Premieres with Lifetime. (This is to outfit two rooms, the more rooms the better the value of 360 vs Premiers with lifetime.)

Oh and as for stability my WMC has been up without issue for almost 2 years at this point. I even use it as a MAME box in the arcade it sits in, but mostly it just sits streaming to two 360. To be fair my S3 has done the same. I just wouldn't give one or the other the nod in reliability.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

rasmasyean said:


> And why are you guys talking about Linux and bringing that into comparison. Is Linux a viable option at this point for building HTPC's? I'll tell you one thing, though&#8230;I wouldn't trust "open source cable card software" to serve as my DVR software. I rather have Windows "crash" on occasion&#8230;although this is an overblown myth that is mostly caused by installation of gunk over time.
> 
> And I don't think Irhorer is a fanboi&#8230;he's more a pessimist who hates EVERYTHING! lol


lrhorer always has to compare Linux to Windows anytime a TiVo versus WMC comparison is brought up here. I don't think that it's relevent to the discussion as well.

Note that my personal preference is for the TiVo as it wins the wife acceptance factor.

Scott


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I iike tivo and windows media center. But i like tivo more since its easyer to use. I wish someone would make a 4 tuner ota tuner card for wmc.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tootal2 said:


> I iike tivo and windows media center. But i like tivo more since its easyer to use. I wish someone would make a 4 tuner ota tuner card for wmc.


While I agree that a 4-tuner OTA device would be nice, there are lots of dual-tuner models available. The cablecard devices cram more tuners on a single chassis to help keep the cost down and also because a single cablecard can support up to six tuners. The manufacturers of ATSC tuners really have no incentive to make a 4-tuner model.



David Platt said:


> Come on. It's possible to have a debate without resorting to personal attacks, something lrhorer has never done to my knowledge.


What personal attack? I was just expressing my relief that an earlier statement I made about lrhorer was in error. I can't recall ever reading a post where he "attacked" anyone, unless you consider the fact that he's completely negative about anything anyone says that doesn't agree with his personal opinion.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> I guess it's the question of value. Do you want to rent another TiVo, or just a cheap plain cable box with no recording sharing, or do you want pay up front for XBox but waste electricity to get the same response...but also watch a whole bunch of other personally owned videos including DVD's. Does XBox do Blue Ray too?
> 
> I guess ultimately (assuming you're OK with DIY), it's TiVo for channel flippers, and XBox for time-shifters.


I have no idea what you're talking about - Tivo vs. Xbox has nothing to do with whether you time shift shows or not. It has everything to do with ease of use vs. features, though.

Xbox does not do BluRay, but neither does Tivo. In both cases you can rip them to disk into a format supported by either box, with some loss of quality.

I'm guessing that you've never heard of pyTivo or streambaby, either of which allow you to watch most anything on a Tivo.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about - Tivo vs. Xbox has nothing to do with whether you time shift shows or not. It has everything to do with ease of use vs. features, though.
> 
> Xbox does not do BluRay, but neither does Tivo. In both cases you can rip them to disk into a format supported by either box, with some loss of quality.
> 
> I'm guessing that you've never heard of pyTivo or streambaby, either of which allow you to watch most anything on a Tivo.


I was replying to the WAF post. Wife Acceptance Factor...which I presume is a standardized term for DVR topics apparently.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

rasmasyean said:


> I was replying to the WAF post. Wife Acceptance Factor...which I presume is a standardized term for DVR topics apparently.


I'm personally lobbying for the SAF (spouse acceptance factor) but being single I think it's a non-issue


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Hey, what about AMD vs. Intel. I noticed that AMD chips are quite a bit cheaper than Intel's? Are they the same quality these days? Does it matter with regards to building a HTPC?


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## hoyty (Jan 22, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> Hey, what about AMD vs. Intel. I noticed that AMD chips are quite a bit cheaper than Intel's? Are they the same quality these days? Does it matter with regards to building a HTPC?


No difference for HTPC. Unless you have a Sandy Bridge Intel chip and want to use Quick Sync for re-encoding of video. HTPC doesn't need a lot of CPU.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

hoyty said:


> No difference for HTPC. Unless you have a Sandy Bridge Intel chip and want to use Quick Sync for re-encoding of video. HTPC doesn't need a lot of CPU.


Hey, that Sandy Bridge CPU seems like it fits right at home with a WMC actually in many situations. I think part of the advantage of a HTPC would be that you can encode your stuff into various formats within the machine for porting to different media/devices. Even uploading video to the internet.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The one edge Intel has over AMD is with the 1156 Clarkdale and newer 1155 SandyBridge CPUs. The Clarkdale models have onboard HD video and can bitstream HD audio without the need for either a separate graphics card or sound card. They're ideal for mini-ITX setups with a small form factor.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

tivohaydon said:


> OK, I'll modify my statement. No software that runs on Linux except for embedded devices has support for CableCard. This includes MythTV. See MythTV's own QA section for details:
> 
> http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Recording_Digital_Cable#Option_4:_CableCard_Tuner


This has changed now that the HDHomerun Primes are coming on the market - any copy-freely channel can be recorded by Myth as it supports those tuners natively.

Copy-once channels are still off the table due to encryption, but for folks on systems that don't protect much (if any) Myth is a viable option now for CC tuners.


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## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

I've had TiVo since mid-2000, starting out with lifetime Series 1's and ending up with yearly Series 2's. TiVo's non-support of satellite in it's newest units forced me to evaluate other options, so I trialed WMC, and in 2011 decided to deactivate the last Series 2, so we're all WMC now.

Things I miss:

Skip to tick.
"Ba-doop" (the TiVo sounds)
Stability and WAF

Things I like about WMC:

More tuners

More storage

No more transfers to PC. They were always slower than real time, and tended to lock up the TiVo and/or the PC 

Every PC in my house has WMC and can see every recorded show, home video, every DVD I own, and all my music. They can't stream live TV, but can share my 4 networked tuners.

Flexibility. Easy to add in things like Hulu, Netflix, Home control, fancy Movie listings, commercial skip etc. 

No cost above the hardware (only 1 new computer bought, others were existing) and Windows 7. 

More remote control options. I can use IR remote, mouse and keyboard, iPhone, iPad, etc. 

Things I don't like about WMC:

It's a PC, so it's not as streamlined as a dedicated box. You have to deal with PC type notifications, primarily of upgraded Flash, Java, Windows Update. You can avoid many of them, but it's not as "no user intervention needed" like the TiVo's are. 

WAF is lower ("How come I can't get the remote to work in Netflix"?) but not enough to demand TiVo back.

There are a few annoying bugs in the software, and Microsoft will not fix them. (Sort of like asking for updates in Series 2 software)

Disclaimer:

These are my experiences and my opinions. I'm not trying to convert you. You may come to a different conclusion. I don't hate TiVo. I still monitor and post here because I'm waiting with 'bated breath for the upcoming DirecTivo to see if it will meet my needs better than WMC.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

WMC can "share" network tuners, but can't "stream live TV"?
How exactly does that work? Satelite WMC's can "record" a show via the network, but you can't watch it until it's finished? Is there some type of restriction that "Live TV" is only streamable to one computer by some type of "single IP only software DRM"? Sort of in the spirit that if you were gonna use a normal DVR, you can watch one channel at a time, but the 2nd tuner is "only licensed to record in the backgorund"?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Tuner sharing is basically the same thing as streaming live TV. The tuners can be physically located on one PC (i.e., the Ceton InfiniTV4) but they're either allocated for use by a single PC or they're tied to a network and available to any PC that wants to use them (SiliconDust HDHomeRun & HomeRun Prime). The bottom line is that you can watch live TV on any PC that's configured to use the tuners. They are techn ically not streaming live TV since they've got direct access to the tuners, but it amounts to the same thing. Only media extenders actually get streamed content from the primary PC where the tuners reside.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

mr.unnatural said:


> Tuner sharing is basically the same thing as streaming live TV. The tuners can be physically located on one PC (i.e., the Ceton InfiniTV4) but they're either allocated for use by a single PC or they're tied to a network and available to any PC that wants to use them (SiliconDust HDHomeRun & HomeRun Prime). The bottom line is that you can watch live TV on any PC that's configured to use the tuners. They are techn ically not streaming live TV since they've got direct access to the tuners, but it amounts to the same thing. Only media extenders actually get streamed content from the primary PC where the tuners reside.


Oh...I see. That's pretty interesting that you can "share the network tuner" among WMC-running computers. In this setting, you have moved away from the HTPC and into the HTNC (Home Theater Network Computers). 

How does conflict management work in this case? 
e.g. If you have a 2-tuner network device, what happens when...

WMC1, WMC2, WMC3 wants to record as the same time?

WMC1, WMC2 are recording...and WMC3 wants to start recording?

WMC1, WCM2 are recording...and person turns on WMC3 to watch live TV?


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Do those HD Home Run devices "stack"? Can you get like 2 cablecards and have "6 tuners"? 9, etc.?


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> Do those HD Home Run devices "stack"? Can you get like 2 cablecards and have "6 tuners"? 9, etc.?


WMC out of the box only supports 4 of the same kind of tuners(So you can only have 4 cable card tuners, 4 OTA tuners...etc).

TunerSalad bumps that up to 12.

The software cost $5.

http://mychannellogos.com/TunerSalad.aspx


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> Oh...I see. That's pretty interesting that you can "share the network tuner" among WMC-running computers. In this setting, you have moved away from the HTPC and into the HTNC (Home Theater Network Computers).
> 
> How does conflict management work in this case?
> e.g. If you have a 2-tuner network device, what happens when...
> ...


I'm not exactly sure how it works but I would assume it's on a first come, first serve basis. If both tuners are already spoken for then you'll probably get some sort of indication saying that no tuners are available. If you've got three PCs trying to share two tuners then you should consider getting more tuners. The HDHomeRun Prime has three tuners and they also have a six tuner model. Neither one has actually hit the market yet but the latest word is that they'll be available by the Labor Day weekend, if not a bit sooner. I think the only limitation on the number of networked tuners you can have, besides the one that WMC imposes by default, is the bandwidth of your network.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mr.unnatural said:


> I'm not exactly sure how it works but I would assume it's on a first come, first serve basis. If both tuners are already spoken for then you'll probably get some sort of indication saying that no tuners are available. If you've got three PCs trying to share two tuners then you should consider getting more tuners. The HDHomeRun Prime has three tuners and they also have a six tuner model. Neither one has actually hit the market yet but the latest word is that they'll be available by the Labor Day weekend, if not a bit sooner.


I believe this is how it works and why Ceton opted for assigned tuners so you didn't have recording conflicts due to multiple PCs trying to record with the same tuner.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> The only answer to this AFAIK is a Series III class TiVo and a soldering iron. Anything shy of this fails #1, #2, and #3 on my deal-killer list.


Technically it's illegal to defeat the copy protection flags and it seems your recommendations are predicated on doing this.

What would be your recommendation for someone who doesn't feel comfortable doing something that is technically illegal?


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Enrique said:


> WMC out of the box only supports 4 of the same kind of tuners(So you can only have 4 cable card tuners, 4 OTA tuners...etc).
> 
> TunerSalad bumps that up to 12.
> 
> ...


That's very interesting. I can see where this is headed. I wonder if someone (maybe Windows 8?) will develop some sort of "mini-cloud" DVR software where it would allocate a WMC unit somewhere in the network to record based on disk space, present CPU load, etc. That would be cool, because you would just be able to add network tuners *as needed *and just add computers next to every TV and you have a "scaling giant HTPC"...except that the HTPC is not really any single unit.

I mean, theoretically, you don't have to have the whole movie in one computer, so it can do things like...
While you're watching the living room TV, it will wake the bedroom PC and start recording...then junior comes home and wants to play Crysis in the bedroom so it will detect that and wake the basement PC and continue recording...etc. And if your family has sceduled 6 simultaneous recordings from the living room, the distributed server system can start distributing all the work to various WMC units by itself.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

You have to specify a location for recorded TV when you run WMC setup. It does not change between PCs unless you rerun setup. You can, however, specify a location other than the PC to which the tuner is either assigned or is sharing a networked tuner. This means you can store recordings on the host PC or on an external storage device like an NAS or server.

Copy once rules still apply regardless of where the recording is located. It can only be played back on the PC that scheduled the recording.


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## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> Tuner sharing is basically the same thing as streaming live TV. The tuners can be physically located on one PC (i.e., the Ceton InfiniTV4) but they're either allocated for use by a single PC or they're tied to a network and available to any PC that wants to use them (SiliconDust HDHomeRun & HomeRun Prime). .


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understanding is that 7MC doesn't allow tuner pooling - 7MC still needs to be configured with a specific tuner on the networked cablecard device (either an HDHR or a network-shared Ceton device). You can theoretically assign multiple computers to a single tuner, but it has no way of knowing that the tuner is in use by another computer and will fail if it's inaccessible.

So you still have the advantage of not having to physically place the tuner at the recording computer, but you have to permanently assign tuners to specific computers to avoid conflicts.


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## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

fyodor said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understanding is that 7MC doesn't allow tuner pooling - 7MC still needs to be configured with a specific tuner on the networked cablecard device (either an HDHR or a network-shared Ceton device). You can theoretically assign multiple computers to a single tuner, but it has no way of knowing that the tuner is in use by another computer and will fail if it's inaccessible.
> 
> So you still have the advantage of not having to physically place the tuner at the recording computer, but you have to permanently assign tuners to specific computers to avoid conflicts.


You're right in that 7MC does not do cooperative tuner pooling. If you add 4 networked tuners, like HDHomeruns, every computer you setup thinks that it has all 4 tuners to use. If a computer needs a tuner, it reserves one and it get the streamed data. If all of the tuners are in use, and a computer requests a tuner, that recording will fail.

What I did was install at least one tuner physically located at the machine, and then added a couple of HDHomeruns to 1) supplement the single tuners for the dedicated boxes (LR and Bedroom), and to allow any other computer in the house to watch live TV (if a tuner is available). I haven't lost any recordings or gotten any failure notices, yet.

The advantage is that the tuner is only locked up when actively used by a computer, and the disadvantage is that the tuner is not "reserved" for that computer.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

snedecor said:


> You're right in that 7MC does not do cooperative tuner pooling. If you add 4 networked tuners, like HDHomeruns, every computer you setup thinks that it has all 4 tuners to use. If a computer needs a tuner, it reserves one and it get the streamed data. If all of the tuners are in use, and a computer requests a tuner, that recording will fail.
> 
> What I did was install at least one tuner physically located at the machine, and then added a couple of HDHomeruns to 1) supplement the single tuners for the dedicated boxes (LR and Bedroom), and to allow any other computer in the house to watch live TV (if a tuner is available). I haven't lost any recordings or gotten any failure notices, yet.
> 
> The advantage is that the tuner is only locked up when actively used by a computer, and the disadvantage is that the tuner is not "reserved" for that computer.


Now that this relatively new product is out, maybe 8MC will do some sort of peer-to-peer sharing of priority schedules so that it will warn you when a tuner will not be available before it just fails. Of perhaps a Windows Update would be kind of optimistically hopeful?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Way hopeful - WMC is Microsoft's red-headed stepchild, so ANY new features are a bonus at this point. Most folks are just hoping that they don't rip it out of Windows 8.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

It's already been confirmed that it will still be included with Windows 8. The only major caveat I'm aware of is that Microsoft will no longer be including a license for Dolby Digital. If you bitsream the audio from your HTPC to an external device for decoding the audio streams it will be a moot point with regards to your setup. Otherwise, you'll need to use a playback app that includes a DD license to play anything in DD 5.1, which is how most HDTV broadcasts send their audio.


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## DocNo (Oct 10, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> That would suck, but which channels for you carry other than the same content?


Food network and premium movie channels. There are others, but those are the only ones I care about at the moment - as long as there is one, it's not a "solution".



> With 2T drives to be had for under $80, HD usage is just not that big a deal.


That's easy for you to proclaim. Even with 2TB of useable storage, my Tivo's are constantly full.



> I also don't record that much in the way of news programs. I only have two daily season passes for weather, and I sometimes watch the news around 22:00, but those don't represent any significant amount of drive space.


It's roughly four to one for SD vs. HD hours. So I can have four hours of news or other programming where HD is irrelevant instead of one hour of HD. Even if it were two to one I would want to have the choice, but at four to one it's hardly as insignificant as you are making it out to be.

Then again maybe you only track a few shows and don't do a lot of save until delete so you can catch up on series - we all use Tivo differently. What may not be an issue for you is definitely an issue for many of us. And it's been addressed in cable company DVR's - Tivo is supposed to be a "premium" solution? The quality settings haven't changed since Tivo was launched as analog only in 2000! That's pretty freaking unbelievable for something that should be part of the core functionality. Instead of flash menu's, Rhapsody and all the other crap being layered onto Tivo. I don't mind if they put that stuff on as long as the *CORE FUNCTIONALITY* of a DVR is as good as it can be. Heck, my parents "crappy" DTV DVRs can present one menu of shows that is the same across all the units and handle schedule conflicts across all tuners as if they were one unit.

I don't know why people are getting excited over a four tuner box. I have all the tuners I need - I just need the lame-a$$ed Tivo software to take advantage of my home network and get smart!



> I am definitely a big fan of keeping a video server on the LAN and transferring any "important" shows to it.


I am to but unless you are on FIOS or have your Tivo hacked, the @%!# CCI bit makes that moot - and it's set far more often on HD than SD which also further weakens your position.



> Not at all. If you are really that uptight over the matter, then use a wishlist or suggestions to record those programs, rather than a Season Pass.


Again, I guess the whole "more than just a DVR" that is on the box of my new premiere is just lip service.

I'm not uptight over it, I'm just a little pissed that Tivo has never really enhanced the core functionality of their software for it's primary function - the recording of TV shows!



> I'll swap the moment that something better meets my requirements. Well, maybe not the very moment, but when I can afford it. Why would I switch to something, however, that fails to meet almost every one of my most important requirements?


And on that I do agree. I did just activate a Premiere with Lifetime to replace an S3 I stupidly didn't put lifetime on. So far it has worked just fine, so we will see - if it acts up before the 30 days are out it will go back and I'll re-evaluate.

If Microsoft would have enabled the recording functionality for Media Center in Windows Home Server 2011 I'd be buying a cable card tuner and switching to Media Center - warts and all. But I am NOT running another windows computer just to record shows. My primary machines are Mac's and I have a Windows disk on my Mac Pro to game. I have an Xbox downstairs and it would be trivial to put another Xbox upstairs and I would be covered.


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

Just to add: There is now a USB version of the 4 tuner InfiniTV4 for $299.

http://www.cannonpc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=27&idcategory=


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Does WMC or any other DVR software allow you to record at custom resolutions (e.g. iPod, Android, etc.)? Or do you have to process them yourself after they are finished? What are some of the softwares that are good for converting them?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

WMC simply records the digital stream as it's provided in whatever resolution the provider is sending you. HDTV will be in either 720p or 1080i for ATSC programming. Recording resolution only pertains to analog broadcasts as it has to be converted to digital for recording to a hard drive. The resolution determines what bitrate will be used for the digital stream.

If you want to use them on a handheld device you'll have to perform the conversion manually. There are lots of apps available that can do this with very little effort on your part.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

mr.unnatural said:


> WMC simply records the digital stream as it's provided in whatever resolution the provider is sending you. HDTV will be in either 720p or 1080i for ATSC programming. Recording resolution only pertains to analog broadcasts as it has to be converted to digital for recording to a hard drive. The resolution determines what bitrate will be used for the digital stream.
> 
> If you want to use them on a handheld device you'll have to perform the conversion manually. There are lots of apps available that can do this with very little effort on your part.


What app is a good one to say...select multiple videos and batch convert them to to a chosen resolution/format?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

A better place to ask that question would be the forums at afterdawn.com or videohelp.com. They deal with everything related to converting and processing video files.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> It's already been confirmed that it will still be included with Windows 8. The only major caveat I'm aware of is that Microsoft will no longer be including a license for Dolby Digital. If you bitsream the audio from your HTPC to an external device for decoding the audio streams it will be a moot point with regards to your setup. Otherwise, you'll need to use a playback app that includes a DD license to play anything in DD 5.1, which is how most HDTV broadcasts send their audio.


This is no longer guaranteed, WMC is not in the latest W8 build:

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=475#p4175
http://experts.windows.com/frms/windows_entertainment_and_connected_home/f/114/t/101810.aspx


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I saw that on the windows experts forum (formerly The Green Button) right after I posted the above reply. Looks like I won't be upgrading to Windows 8 if they drop WMC. I'm really surprised to hear this considering how many cablecard tuner models are being planned for release. You've really got to hand it to Microsoft for giving the public what it doesn't want.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

mr.unnatural said:


> I saw that on the windows experts forum (formerly The Green Button) right after I posted the above reply. Looks like I won't be upgrading to Windows 8 if they drop WMC. I'm really surprised to hear this considering how many cablecard tuner models are being planned for release. You've really got to hand it to Microsoft for giving the public what it doesn't want.


This doesn't necessarily mean that they won't include it in the final version. Windows 8 is still in early stages. It just means that as of NOW, 8MC is not ready for test. For all we know, this could be because it's currently undergoing a major overall. Perhaps in such a way that would enable developer support. In which case, it would give M$ a potential griphold into the exploding "media everywhere" industry.


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

Or as many are suggesting, Microsoft will offer it in their app store for those who want it.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I contacted the blogger from Microsoft and indicated that I was upset about Media Center being removed from Win 8. He seemed surprised by this and asked where I heard about it. I pointed him to the winrumors website that indicated it was being removed from the current build. The response I got back was basically a "no comment" because the info didn't come from Microsoft.

What I garnered from this is that Media Center may have been removed from the current build, but that doesn't mean it won't be included in the final released version. Whatever the case, I'll probably be sticking with Windows 7 for quite a while.


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

Enrique said:


> Just to add: There is now a USB version of the 4 tuner InfiniTV4 for $299.
> 
> http://www.cannonpc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=27&idcategory=


that is just too cool


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> I saw that on the windows experts forum (formerly The Green Button) right after I posted the above reply. Looks like I won't be upgrading to Windows 8 if they drop WMC. I'm really surprised to hear this considering how many cablecard tuner models are being planned for release. You've really got to hand it to Microsoft for giving the public what it doesn't want.


If I have an HTPC that already does everything I want, HDTV, BluRay, DTSHD master audio, TrueHD audio.. then why do I need win 8? Seems that win 8 would be the last thing I would want to use on that machine


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

vurbano said:


> If I have an HTPC that already does everything I want, HDTV, BluRay, DTSHD master audio, TrueHD audio.. then why do I need win 8? Seems that win 8 would be the last thing I would want to use on that machine


Well I think people would like to see improvements to Media Center. Also, and more importantly, they want to see the service itself continue and the guide data still be available.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

There are always new features in Windows or new hardware that requires an upgrade to the latest OS in order to use them. I don't see it as being that much of an issue because Microsoft typically supports any OS version for about 8-10 years or so before they stop offering any updates. 

Chances are whatever method we're currently using to view and record TV will be nearly obsolete by then anyway, making it a moot point. If not, there's no reason why we couldn't continue to use Windows 7 Media Center to watch and record TV unless the guide data disappears. Even so, there will probably be third party apps for acquiring guide data to keep Media Center alive indefinitely.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Speaking of which...

There never was any mention of Windows Vista. How is backward compatability with Windows 7 and the various tuners? Especially with those network tuners, I imagine a lot of ppl have older computers that use Vista with Media Center.

I presume Windows XP Media Center Edition might not fare so well today, however.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The current crop of cablecard tuners will only work with Windows 7 Media Center. Forget about Vista (for too many reasons to list) and XP MC if you want to use a cablecard tuner.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

The regular HD Homerun isn't a CableCARD tuner.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

Admittedly, I only used WMC for a few days before giving up. If I had used a dedicated remote I might have lasted longer. Some of my issues were...


When I adjusted overscan so the entire desktop was visible the HD image appeared to lose detail.
Even though it was a HTPC it was too loud.
At times I would get loud popping out of my speakers (bouncing around WMC). Loud enough I was afraid they might cause damage.
It was still a computer. TV should remove you from everyday's hassles.
WMC interface. In real life use it's very hard to beat the peanut.
The moment I got done playing around (which can be fun) and simply wanted to view TV I found the experience lacking. Again, if I had a dedicated remote it probably would have helped. However it never got close to the ease of TiVo. TV should be relaxing and take you away from the world. If you are using a HTPC it appears all too often it doesn't let you escape.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Charles R said:


> Admittedly, I only used WMC for a few days before giving up. If I had used a dedicated remote I might have lasted longer. Some of my issues were...
> 
> 
> When I adjusted overscan so the entire desktop was visible the HD image appeared to lose detail.




That's an issue with either your graphics card or the driver you're using.



> [*]Even though it was a HTPC it was too loud.


If you're using a bitstreamed audio output via HDMI or other digital audio output (Toslink of coaxial) the level is controlled by your outboard preamp.



> [*]At times I would get loud popping out of my speakers (bouncing around WMC). Loud enough I was afraid they might cause damage.


Sounds like an issue with whatever audio interface you're using from the HTPC. I have no such issues with mine (bitstreamed via HDMI).



> [*]It was still a computer. TV should remove you from everyday's hassles.


My HTPC is perfectly stable. With Windows 7 it's very easy to have a stable setup with very few issues. Most PC issues are typically related to an incorrect setting in the software.



> [*]WMC interface. In real life use it's very hard to beat the peanut.



Actually, it's extremely easy to beat the peanut. I rarely use the peanut remote as it's very limited for use with anything other than a Tivo. If you can't live without it you can use an app like EventGhost and map the remote buttons to control keyborad, mouse, and Windows commands in WMC or any other PC app using any remote of your own choosing.



> The moment I got done playing around (which can be fun) and simply wanted to view TV I found the experience lacking. Again, if I had a dedicated remote it probably would have helped. However it never got close to the ease of TiVo. TV should be relaxing and take you away from the world. If you are using a HTPC it appears all too often it doesn't let you escape.


I've been using an HTPC for most of my TV viewing for about 4-1/2 years. I installed a Ceton InfiniTV4 last year and no longer use my Tivos. My HTPC is completely invisible except for the fact that it lets me do everything from a single interface. I actually prefer the interface to a Tivo. Now I watch 100% of all TV via my HTPC and I love it.

To be fair, HTPCs are a niche product and are usually favored by those that like to tinker and tweak their components for optimum performance. HTPCs do have a learning curve and you have to be willing to invest the time to set them up correctly. Fortunately, there are so many guides and instructions for setting up a stable HTPC that it's virtually foolproof to set one up that works properly. Most of the negative stories I read about people that are unhappy with their HTPC experiences are usually due to a complete lack of patience or experience in configuring and troubleshooting PC issues. They expect to be able to load everything up and have it work right the first time. It can be done, but you also have to know what you're doing. Don't blame the PC because it's been configured incorrectly.


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> They expect to be able to load everything up and have it work right the first time. It can be done, but you also have to know what you're doing. Don't blame the PC because it's been configured incorrectly.


100%. It's kinda like people who buy PCs vs those who like to build them.

Some people just want plug and play and some want to have control over the number of tuners, DRM or no DRM and a myriad of other other things. Those who like control over those things like HTPC.

Right now I have two Hauppauge Colossus connected to two cable boxes(Which for the next six months are costing me nothing) so doing that I still get HD video with no DRM.

I have been thinking about getting a cablecard device for my PC, but I can't deal with DRM so for right now I'm sticking with my set up.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> That's an issue with either your graphics card or the driver you're using.


I believe it's called scaling (no longer 1:1 pixel mapping) which every card has to do in this case. Some better than others but you lose the native image regardless.



> If you're using a bitstreamed audio output via HDMI or other digital audio output (Toslink of coaxial) the level is controlled by your outboard preamp.


Sorry, it was the the HTPC itself being too loud.



> My HTPC is perfectly stable. With Windows 7 it's very easy to have a stable setup with very few issues. Most PC issues are typically related to an incorrect setting in the software.


It's not how stable it is. It's more the old saying... if you have to ask _why I ride a harley I can't explain it to you_.



> Actually, it's extremely easy to beat the peanut. I rarely use the peanut remote as it's very limited for use with anything other than a Tivo.


Silly, I don't use it with anything other than TiVo. Why would I?



> If you can't live without it you can use an app like EventGhost and map the remote buttons to control keyborad, mouse, and Windows commands in WMC or any other PC app using any remote of your own choosing.


Proving my points very quickly. 



> I've been using an HTPC for most of my TV viewing for about 4-1/2 years. I installed a Ceton InfiniTV4 last year and no longer use my Tivos. My HTPC is completely invisible except for the fact that it lets me do everything from a single interface.


I used one for years and years. Until I simply gave up. Too much work, expense, time ,lacking user-interface and overall it never did the job as well as something else. Like the DVD software player (TheaterTek) that was supposed to scale everything so wonderfully. Well I'd spend hours making a movie look great and the next would look like crap with the same settings. Not to mention at least once a movie it would hiccup for a second regardless of how many times you reloaded everything from scratch.



> To be fair, HTPCs are a niche product and are usually favored by those that like to tinker and tweak their components for optimum performance. HTPCs do have a learning curve and you have to be willing to invest the time to set them up correctly.


Completely agree.



> Fortunately, there are so many guides and instructions for setting up a stable HTPC that it's virtually foolproof to set one up that works properly. Most of the negative stories I read about people that are unhappy with their HTPC experiences are usually due to a complete lack of patience or experience in configuring and troubleshooting PC issues.


Just because you set it up properly doesn't mean it performs how you would like or better than something else.



> Don't blame the PC because it's been configured incorrectly.


I only blame it when it doesn't meet my needs.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Do you think Playing games like on OnLive would interfere much with the WMC operations? It's not as resource intensive as "Crysis", but can use up some bandwidth...perhaps affecting some network tuners if it can't keep a steady stream.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

rasmasyean said:


> Do you think Playing games like on OnLive would interfere much with the WMC operations? It's not as resource intensive as "Crysis", but can use up some bandwidth...perhaps affecting some network tuners if it can't keep a steady stream.


More than likely not an issue. Especially, if your Internet bandwidth is limited as you can't exceed that which should be a small percentage of what's available locally. I used a HDHomeRun for recording two show on a Mac Mini and then streaming one of those to a Boxee Box. All at once and I never saw any issues over a 100Mbps network (all devices hardwired).


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Here's a little reference regarding OnLive

*Idle:*









*Running "Duke Nukem Forever"! *









This is a Core i7. What would be the minimum CPU required to run these two programs (say WMC and OnLive)?


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

Charles R said:


> More than likely not an issue. Especially, if your Internet bandwidth is limited as you can't exceed that which should be a small percentage of what's available locally. I used a HDHomeRun for recording two show on a Mac Mini and then streaming one of those to a Boxee Box. All at once and I never saw any issues over a 100Mbps network (all devices hardwired).


I saw a problem now and then when I had MRV going on between two Tivos and two HDHR recordings going on. The issue was the low-end 5 port 100mbps ethernet switch didn't have enough bandwidth to handle the load of that much traffic. Upgrading to an 8-port GigE switch eliminated the issue. The idea being the switch had enough bandwidth internally to smoothly handle everything, even though they were still only 100mbps wired links.

Even with that I moved the Tivos onto their own switch (the old 5 port unit) to further isolate their traffic from everything else. Not really necessary but the layout of the gear and the wiring made it simpler.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Charles R said:


> I believe it's called scaling (no longer 1:1 pixel mapping) which every card has to do in this case. Some better than others but you lose the native image regardless.


Correct. Different graphics card setups include different apps to deal with scaling and overscan issues.



> Sorry, it was the the HTPC itself being too loud.


Lots of ways to make a PC quieter.



> I used one for years and years. Until I simply gave up. Too much work, expense, time ,lacking user-interface and overall it never did the job as well as something else. Like the DVD software player (TheaterTek) that was supposed to scale everything so wonderfully. Well I'd spend hours making a movie look great and the next would look like crap with the same settings. Not to mention at least once a movie it would hiccup for a second regardless of how many times you reloaded everything from scratch.


I guess it all boils down to what you get in return for your investment. If you have to spend endless hours tweaking an HTPC to get it right then there's an obvious problem with it that's not getting resolved. I have put lots of time into my HTPC and most of the issues that caused me to beat my head against a wall usually ended up having a ridiculously simple solution.

I can certainly understand someone's frustration over dealing with HTPC issues as we have all been there. I guess I'm just more patient than most people. I just feel that all of the effort I've put into mine has paid off in spades. The value of being able to access all of my media using a single interface is the single best benefit an HTPC can provide. My home theater system went from looking like a Circuit City showroom to a single shelf unit with two components (the HTPC and a preamp/processor).


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

mr.unnatural said:


> My home theater system went from looking like a Circuit City showroom to a single shelf unit with two components (the HTPC and a preamp/processor).


You mean you have a VHS player in your HTPC too?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> You mean you have a VHS player in your HTPC too?


No, but I used to have several S-VHS recorders and at least one Beta Hi-Fi VCR. I also had a D-VHS recorder connected directly to a Hughes DirecTV receiver via a special interface connection that allowed me to record the digital stream directly to videotape. It was the precursor to the DirecTivo DVR and was a total PITA to scan through commercials.

Each video recorder had it's own dedicated DirecTV receiver. I had a separate Lexicon Dolby Pro-Logic processor as well as a separate Marantz Dolby Digital processor. I had them all going through a Sony matrix switcher so I could route any signal through the processor of my choosing. I also had a Counterpoint preamp, Tandberg cassette deck, and a Luxman manual turntable with a Mayware Formula 4 tonearm and Denon moving coil cartridge with a Marcof moving coil preamp. Almost forgot to include the Pioneer universal laserdisc/CD player and a Dynaco tuner I built from a kit back when I was a teenager. The speakers were all Vandersteens with a pair of model 2A's for the rear and a pair of model 2C's for the fronts, a Vandersteen sub, and VCC-1 center channel speaker. All speakers were driven by individual Kenwood L-07M monoblock amps.

I've probably gone through enough audio gear in my lifetime to fill up a showroom. The above list is but one of the many configurations I've owned over the years. I have since replaced everything in my system except for the Kenwood amps and the turntable setup, which currently sits idle waiting for me to hook it back up someday.


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> I guess it all boils down to what you get in return for your investment.


I agree. I just sold another new upgraded Premiere with lifetime. I'd like to go the HTPC route as it does offer several advantages such as being able to view ESPN3 (US Open tennis starting soon). However with TiVo's new OTA promotion it's going to be very hard to resist not staying with TiVo. One of its advantages has been its resell value (over the years). A unit with lifetime retains a good chunk of its value and if you throw in an upgraded drive you can often break even or make a few dollars.

But ultimately (for me) it's about the user interface. Such as the ease of watching two shows live. Also, it effortlessly plays ripped DVDs (MKVs) it their naive video and audio quality so you get a mini-streamer along with the other Internet streaming apps.

I enjoy the tweaking of the HTPC however at the same time when I want to sit on the sofa and watch TV I don't want to deal with a HTPC (even if it's very slick)... it's still a PC I'm interacting with. Before the OTA promotion I figured the cost was roughly the same (TiVo + Lifetime versus HTPC + HDHomeRun) but again with the this promotion it swings towards TiVo. However with monthly service you can't get your money back via eBay. 

Last time I tried a Q150... http://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-IdeaCe...K2YY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314295240&sr=8-1 which was on sale at Fry's for $229 (great deal). It worked nicely outside of being too loud and the speakers popping. I gave up over the loudness and the lack of ease when viewing live TV/delayed recordings. I think a WMC remote probably would have solved most of those issues but all of a sudden I would be spending more and hoping I got close to what TiVo already offered (based on my needs/usage).

Anyone have any recommendations for a small form factor low-end HTPC? I refuse to spend more than $500 or so since I could go the Boxee Box and other options route and get a bigger bang for the buck. I have assembled Shuttles in the past and it's a great option but by the time you throw everything in including the OS it's beyond my commitment level. If I wanted it to do a lot more (such as ripping Blu-rays) I could see this being the perfect solution.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

What about just buying a "Dell" or something and use that as a HTPC? Often mass production PC's have a lower price overall and sometimes you get deals. It would also require minimal hardware futzing, I would guess. Is that a viable option?


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

The problem with mass produced machines is their drivers and chipsets are often really, really bad at providing HTPC features or even quality. By the time you untangle the mess of their drivers as the OS gets upgraded you're still left with crappy components. 

As for noise levels, a rheostat can controller can work wonders for tuning the fan so it's noise is less bothersome. I've got a rack full of gear with them, it was the only way to get them all humming at similar enough frequencies to be less annoying. They key, of course, is to not turn the fan down so slow as to defeat it's cooling purposes. This technique has been a lot more effective than going with so-called silent fans. They usually moved to little air to be useful and didn't last very long.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

The network tuners seem to be less "driver dependent" I would guess so perhaps a cheap mass produced PC can suit this case. And they are coming out with the cablecard variety right now. Perhaps it would then just be a matter of ensuring it has room for extra HD's (which don't usually give you problems during upgrade).


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> The network tuners seem to be less "driver dependent" I would guess so perhaps a cheap mass produced PC can suit this case.


Um, no. The tuner just gets the program into the PC.  To get it back our you're dependent on the drives in the PC. The display, the audio, etc. That's the point I was making, not the network tuner question. On that front SiliconDust has done a remarkable job of keeping things current, thankfully.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Actually, I just looked at the Dell site...and come to think of it, they aren't so cheap anymore. And if you consider comparing their prices to building a computer with some equivalent "low end" internals from newegg, you can actually beat their price. Perhaps the real bargain is that if you don't have a copy of Windows, you're prolly getting it at the OEM price point. Unless you catch a "special", you're prolly not really saving that much in $.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The primary appeal of buying a pre-built PC from Dell or one of the other big companies is that they offer support after the sale, although that tends to be waning as the years go by. Pre-built PCs are for those that are less technically inclined to build their own PC or are just looking for a starter machine. You can get them slightly cheaper than a DIY PC when you add up the total cost of the hardware plus the software plus the limited technical support.

You can get many of them configured with aftermarket components of higher quality, but you'll generally pay more in the long run if you go this route. An off-the-shelf PC might be good as a starter HTPC but chances are you'll want to upgrade to better hardware at some point when you get bitten by the HTPC bug.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Regarding good aftermarket parts, what's the significance of like getting motherboards that have some power saving options. Considering that a "PC" is relatively power hungry, it would be nice for it to automatically turn off the HD, lower the clock, sleep the network, etc. and stuff like that. Does this make a difference vs. just "sleep after 1 hour of idle" or whatever standard Windows feature you get with a generic pre-built?


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## Charles R (Nov 9, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> The primary appeal of buying a pre-built PC from Dell or one of the other big companies is that they offer support after the sale, although that tends to be waning as the years go by. Pre-built PCs are for those that are less technically inclined to build their own PC or are just looking for a starter machine. You can get them slightly cheaper than a DIY PC when you add up the total cost of the hardware plus the software plus the limited technical support.


For my needs a HTPC would require very little. Most demanding might be a decent graphics card for 1080p. Speed wouldn't be important, storage space (that's what network storage is for) or hardly anything else. As such a nice PC is overkill and assembling one in the lower price arena is very tough. Take for example the Q150 I purchased for $229 (link to earlier). Hardware wise it did what I needed very nicely and came with Windows Premium 64. If I built a semi-decent Shuttle it would have been three times or so more expensive. It would probably have been faster, had more storage, etc but again those would be overkill. I would use the HTPC as a front-end which makes chasing state-of-the-art foolish. Almost as foolish as the $6,500 laptop or $3,500 hard drive I purchased back in the day.


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

Charles R said:


> For my needs a HTPC would require very little. Most demanding might be a decent graphics card for 1080p. Speed wouldn't be important, storage space (that's what network storage is for) or hardly anything else. As such a nice PC is overkill and assembling one in the lower price arena is very tough. Take for example the Q150 I purchased for $229 (link to earlier). Hardware wise it did what I needed very nicely and came with Windows Premium 64. If I built a semi-decent Shuttle it would have been three times or so more expensive. It would probably have been faster, had more storage, etc but again those would be overkill. I would use the HTPC as a front-end which makes chasing state-of-the-art foolish. Almost as foolish as the $6,500 laptop or $3,500 hard drive I purchased back in the day.


If you were in the market for a "$6,500 laptop or $3,500 hard drive back in the day" it's not always "foolish". It could have theoretically gave you an edge over "competitors", as is the similar situation today. Of course, it depends on what you're doing with it.

But anyways, the 2nd gen Intel Core i chips have built-in GPU's that are made for stuff like HD. I think they are called "Sandybridged" or something, which you can research. It can also encode video a lot faster too in case you want to change formats for different media. You no longer need a video card or an on-motherboard-GPU. Maybe next time they will also include a built-in SSD for your OS too?


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

The Intel Sandy Bridge CPUs (socket 1155) are extremely powerful yet very energy efficient when compared to older CPUs in their price range. They are perfect for use on an HTPC platform. They not only include integrated HD graphics but they can also support bitstreaming HD audio via HDMI, negating the need for separate graphics and audio cards. This allows you to build a small form factor HTPC that's both quiet and energy efficient but still has the capabilities of it's larger brethren.

I'm currently using an Intel Clarkdale CPU (CORE i5-660) with an ASRock socket 1156 motherboard. If I were to build a new HTPC today it would definitely be based on a Sandy Bridge setup.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

I have some socket 1155 boards and while they may do a good job of getting a lot of performance out of less power that doesn't mean they're low power. If you're after low power consumption the Atom boards still do a much better job.


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## macrho (Nov 19, 2005)

The HDMI port croaked on my TiVo S3 so I picked up a HD Homerun Prime (6CC) - I must say I really like having all channels available in MCE but without a doubt, unless you like tinkering with PCs, stay with your TiVo. Benefits of MCE:

1) Mediabrowser.tv plugin - pure eye candy with some of the new themes [ on par with XBMC and Aeon MQ2 ]

2) Play blu-ray with TMT5

3) Music - bit of a pain here to get FLAC Supported

Looking into home automation plugins along with game emulation. I'll be staying with MCE for now


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## rasmasyean (Jul 29, 2011)

macrho said:


> The HDMI port croaked on my TiVo S3 so I picked up a HD Homerun Prime (6CC) - I must say I really like having all channels available in MCE but without a doubt, unless you like tinkering with PCs, stay with your TiVo. Benefits of MCE:
> 
> 1) Mediabrowser.tv plugin - pure eye candy with some of the new themes [ on par with XBMC and Aeon MQ2 ]
> 
> ...


You use too many acronyms. I don't have a clue what you are talking about.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

rasmasyean said:


> You use too many acronyms. I don't have a clue what you are talking about.


Feel free to STFW to educate yourself.

I think the "if you feel like tinkering" comment is accurate. Anyone giving any serious consideration of an HTPC setup has a lot of learning to do. Meanwhile consumer devices like the Tivo do an admirable job of hiding the messy details for most folks.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

rasmasyean said:


> You use too many acronyms. I don't have a clue what you are talking about.


LOL, you really have no business running an HTPC then, at least not until you get some education.

Here's a good place to start.


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

mr.unnatural said:


> I contacted the blogger from Microsoft and indicated that I was upset about Media Center being removed from Win 8. He seemed surprised by this and asked where I heard about it. I pointed him to the winrumors website that indicated it was being removed from the current build. The response I got back was basically a "no comment" because the info didn't come from Microsoft.
> 
> What I garnered from this is that Media Center may have been removed from the current build, but that doesn't mean it won't be included in the final released version. Whatever the case, I'll probably be sticking with Windows 7 for quite a while.


Looks like WMC will be part of WIN8

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/02/reflecting-on-our-first-conversations-part-2.aspx

Down at the bottom of the page.


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## snedecor (Jun 27, 2001)

macrho said:


> The HDMI port croaked on my TiVo S3 so I picked up a HD Homerun Prime (6CC) - I must say I really like having all channels available in MCE but without a doubt, unless you like tinkering with PCs, stay with your TiVo. Benefits of MCE:
> 
> 1) Mediabrowser.tv plugin - pure eye candy with some of the new themes [ on par with XBMC and Aeon MQ2 ]
> 
> ...


I have a home automation program called Homeseer, and there's a MCE plug-in for it. Not fancy, but allows device on/off, etc. I also have a webcam plug-in, MyMovies plug-in to access my ripped DVD's, Hulu plug-in, 
MyChannelLogos, MCE schedule backup/restore.

Keeping with the theme of the BBS, there also is a Homeseer plug-in for Tivo, I believe...


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## srauly (Apr 26, 2000)

Here's my dilemma that I'm hoping some of you (on both sides of the TiVo vs WMC fence) can provide some insight into. I had two TiVo HD (S3) units. Both on the monthly plan (for a long time now). One died. I have another one new-in-box that I could set up. I also have a high-powered desktop (Intel i7) that is surprisingly quiet enough that I could leave on all the time in my bedroom.

I also have an XBox 360 (older, louder model) and three Apple TV (gen 2) devices. I love the small size of the Apple TV's and would like to be able to make use of them in rooms which can get away without having live TV access, but where it would be nice to play back any pre-recorded TV. My wife also has an iPad, and it would be great to do the same with that.

I do think that I need to have live TV access in at least two rooms. So it seems like my choices are to activate the 2nd TiVo (and continue paying monthly on both boxes and/or pay for lifetime) to get a decent amount of tuners and two rooms of live TV, or get an HDHomeRun Prime or Ceton USB 4-tuner box and use WMC along with the XBox 360 in a 2nd room.

I understand the pros and cons of that, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on how best to integrate the Apple TVs and iPad, and what the pros/cons of the TiVo HD vs WMC would be in that regard. The Apple TVs have a GPU which can decode MP4, but can't deal with MPEG-2, so the shows need to be converted. In the case of the TiVo HD, I believe that the shows will need to first be pulled off of the TiVo and onto the PC. That's an added time-consuming step, since the TiVo HD is not gigabit ethernet.

So if my goal was to have a program up-and-running and watching a directory to transcode the files to MP4, the WMC box will have an advantage. But is it possible that there could be programs which can transcode the TiVo file format faster than they can .wtv files?

Note: I've also played around with Remote Potato and AirVideo which can transcode on-the-fly the WTV format to MP4. The resulting PQ was bearable when viewed on my iPhone 4's screen, but when I then used AirPlay to play the show on the ATV2, the loss in PQ was readily apparent (this was using the highest bitrate settings possible), and completely unacceptable. So unless someone here knows something I don't, it looks like on-the-fly transcoding to high-quality MP4 (i.e., watchable on a big TV) is not possible (and remember, I'm basing this statement on my experience of trying this with an Intel i7 desktop doing the transcoding).

I'd love to see Apple come out with something like an AirPort Extreme / TimeCapsule that has cablecard tuners (or can interface with the Ceton USB or HDHomerun Prime devices), and does on-the-fly transcoding/recording of live TV to MP4, but I'm not holding my breath.

So if any of you are watching TiVo HD or WMC HD content on your iPad or AppleTV, what is the method you use, and how long does it typically take from start-to-finish?


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