# Worse reception with Roamio OTA?



## Buckav9/9 (Jan 19, 2016)

Hello!

I just got my Roamio OTA today and finished the set up. I have been using just an antenna for OTA channels for a while now and had spent a pretty good amount of time setting up my antenna in just the right spot and securing it where it is. However, when I got the Roamio set up and the antenna running through it, my reception is significantly worse (basically none of my channels are watchable). The antenna never moved and I confirmed that disconnecting the Roamio returned my reception to what it was.

Is this a known issue? Is there a reason that reception would go down running through the Roamio rather than just directly to the TV? I spent a significant amount of time positioning the antenna and do not think that there will be any way to relocate it to improve reception. 

Any advice would be much appreciated. 

Thank you!


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## jamesteixeira (Nov 22, 2014)

No channels will tune through the Roamio? How far are you from the broadcasting towers? Something should tune in. Get another Roamio and try it, your existing one may have bad tuners. Return the Roamio within 30 days to keep from having to pay for it.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

I have a Roamio, TiVoHD, and TiVo Premiere all on the same antenna. I don't see any issues with the Roamio for OTA here and I don't recall reading anything that would make me believe the Roamio is inferior to previous OTA TiVos.


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## Buckav9/9 (Jan 19, 2016)

jamesteixeira said:


> No channels will tune through the Roamio? How far are you from the broadcasting towers? Something should tune in. Get another Roamio and try it, your existing one may have bad tuners. Return the Roamio within 30 days to keep from having to pay for it.


Thanks. The channels are all there, but really blocky and with poor enough signal that they are cutting out 60-70% of the time. Without the Roamio attached, I can't remember the last time I had any signal cut out.


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## phughes200 (Jul 24, 2014)

What signal strength are you seeing?


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## Buckav9/9 (Jan 19, 2016)

phughes200 said:


> What signal strength are you seeing?


I will spend some time tonight getting more exact numbers, but without the Roamio, my TV shows strengths around 60-70 for most channels. With the Roamio it is showing around 15-20.

I can report back with more specifics tonight.


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## lmacmil (Oct 26, 2015)

Chris Gerhard said:


> I have a Roamio, TiVoHD, and TiVo Premiere all on the same antenna. I don't see any issues with the Roamio for OTA here


Same for me and my Roamio.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

Buckav9/9 said:


> Hello!
> 
> I just got my Roamio OTA today and finished the set up. I have been using just an antenna for OTA channels for a while now and had spent a pretty good amount of time setting up my antenna in just the right spot and securing it where it is. However, when I got the Roamio set up and the antenna running through it, my reception is significantly worse (basically none of my channels are watchable). The antenna never moved and I confirmed that disconnecting the Roamio returned my reception to what it was.
> 
> ...


Considering the price that these are going for on Amazon - TiVo has really had to driven down the cost in every way possible.

It would not surprise me if the ATSC tuners on these new Roamio OTAs are not of the "best" quality.

If you re-read the thread with TiVo's CMO, aiming at the top end of the market has not worked for TiVo - and their thinking now is going after the masses.


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## nycityuser (Dec 30, 2004)

I have been using an antenna with a Premiere for years and find that the reception is worse through the Premiere than when using the television's own tuner.

I also started using an antenna in another room with a Roamio Basic. Same issue. Reception is better through the TV than with the Roamio.

I've been annoyed by this for years. But I won't watch "Live" TV so must use a DVR.

My situation is that most channels come in on the Premiere and most on the Roamio, though different ones. So I can copy from one machine to the other if I want to watch a show in another room.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

nycityuser said:


> I have been using an antenna with a Premiere for years and find that the reception is worse through the Premiere than when using the television's own tuner.
> 
> I also started using an antenna in another room with a Roamio Basic. Same issue. Reception is better through the TV than with the Roamio.
> 
> ...


If you are in the heart of NYC, your issue is lost likely multipath causing signal quality issues and digital errors.

With digital you do not get the old "ghosts". Either the info is usable - or the picture starts breaking up with errors, which quickly degrades to no usable picture.

For Manhattan et al proper, the backup TSQ transmission site work MUCH better than Empire, but those reduce the reception OTA in Jersey and the Island.


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## Jack Mccarthy (Aug 24, 2012)

Where is your antenna is relation to the Roamio OTA? I've been recently setting up my Roamio Basic and compared it to the Premier and noticed the Roamio does a better job picking up signal levels for the weaker stations.

The big difference for me is that I'm using a Clearstream 4V antenna in my attic with a 1dB noise figure Winegard LNA-200 pre-amp and driving it through 50ft of premium RG-6 cable.

If you have a long cable run, a low noise figure pre-amp does wonders to help the signal level. My Roamio will even work well with a cheaper $20 double bowtie antenna with a reflector vs. the Premier which needs the Clearstream 4V antenna to pick up the weaker signals better.

Walmart sells the pre-amps, so you can easily order one online and pick it up in the store. You only need to insure you have a power outlet near your antenna for the pre-amp.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

I had the same experience. TivoHD and Premiere had much better tuners than Roamio OTA. I posted as such here

I can believe part of the explanation that driving 4 tuners, you end up with poorer signal at each tuner. Which means that several stations that I used to be able to receive, I can no longer receive. Which is ok, because they're just FOX & CBS from a neighboring city, where I can get FOX and CBS locally without any problem.

The real problem is that I no longer consistently get a network that has a tower that's only 5 mi away, and I can see the tower from my house. And that's ABC, for which there are several programs I record that end up with frequent pixelation that interrupts key portions of what I'm watching. That one is frustrating.


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## phughes200 (Jul 24, 2014)

In my limited experience, if your signal strength is 15-20 then I am not surprised that you are having problems. It also depends on how steady the readings are. I have one channel that bounce around and occasionally have trouble recording it. Another weaker channel also is fine. It is hard to compare signal strength readings between two different devices. In your case, I wonder if you just got a bad unit.

In my case, I found the Roamio turners to be better than the Premiere. The tuners on my TV do appear better.


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## aepcopat (Mar 25, 2015)

I just ditched my cable card this weekend for OTA. I was able to scan the channels just fine on Tivo Roamio, but recorded content is really choppy. Not sure what the problem is. Any ideas?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

mjh said:


> I had the same experience. TivoHD and Premiere had much better tuners than Roamio OTA. I posted as such here
> 
> I can believe part of the explanation that driving 4 tuners, you end up with poorer signal at each tuner. Which means that several stations that I used to be able to receive, I can no longer receive. Which is ok, because they're just FOX & CBS from a neighboring city, where I can get FOX and CBS locally without any problem.
> 
> The real problem is that I no longer consistently get a network that has a tower that's only 5 mi away, and I can see the tower from my house. And that's ABC, for which there are several programs I record that end up with frequent pixelation that interrupts key portions of what I'm watching. That one is frustrating.


The 5 mile away - you are either overloading the tuner, causing errors - or it is actually overshooting your location and the bounce back is causing quality of signal errors.

Remember in digital, the quality of the signal is more important that the signal strength, especially with OTA which has minimal error correction.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

aepcopat said:


> I just ditched my cable card this weekend for OTA. I was able to scan the channels just fine on Tivo Roamio, but recorded content is really choppy. Not sure what the problem is. Any ideas?


Again, quality of signal is more important than signal strength.

Many devices actually report the Quality of the Signal and label it Signal Strength.

I do not know if TiVo labels as such.


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## namwoljr (Aug 8, 2014)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Again, quality of signal is more important than signal strength.
> 
> Many devices actually report the Quality of the Signal and label it Signal Strength.
> 
> I do not know if TiVo labels as such.


The Roamio signal strength (at least for my unit) maxes out at 72 for all of my stronger signals. I usually look at the SNR (signal to noise ratio) to give me a better idea of signal quality. If I'm not mistaken, I think 15 dB is the digital cliff, so anything above that should be able to give you a picture, although without any headroom, it won't likely be stable. I get 29dB on all my stronger signals, and I can pick up stations with as low as 17dB, but not nearly as reliably.


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## nycityuser (Dec 30, 2004)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> If you are in the heart of NYC, your issue is lost likely multipath causing signal quality issues and digital errors.


I meant to mention that I am in the heart of Los Angeles with my OTA machines. My TV tuners get better reception than the TiVo tuners. (I also have TiVos fed by Verizon FIOS in Manhattan, hence my name of nycityny.)


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

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nycityuser said:


> I meant to mention that I am in the heart of Los Angeles with my OTA machines. My TV tuners get better reception than the TiVo tuners. (I also have TiVos fed by Verizon FIOS in Manhattan, hence my name of nycityny.)


Beside your nick, your location says New York.

Where in LA. It makes a major difference.


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## nycityuser (Dec 30, 2004)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> Beside your nick, your location says New York.
> ...


Near CBS Television City on Fairfax.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

nycityuser said:


> Near CBS Television City on Fairfax.


At that location you most likely have a direct line of site to M Wilson, but you might be getting a secondary bounce from the Santa Monica Range dropping your signal quality.

I bet if you made a list of the channels in the 2 rooms, one room would favor the Mt Wilson transmitters and the other room would favor other Transmitter locations.

How high are you (you know what I mean....not Colorado Rocky Mt).


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## nycityuser (Dec 30, 2004)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> At that location you most likely have a direct line of site to M Wilson, but you might be getting a secondary bounce from the Santa Monica Range dropping your signal quality.
> 
> I bet if you made a list of the channels in the 2 rooms, one room would favor the Mt Wilson transmitters and the other room would favor other Transmitter locations.
> 
> How high are you (you know what I mean....not Colorado Rocky Mt).


No, no, I don't do drugs...

I should mention that I use indoor antennas situated near windows - one is taped to a window. Each TiVo machine has its own antenna. I am on the 2nd floor of a two story duplex. But I am in the "flatlands" as is CBS.

Both antennas are aimed at windows facing north.

I live at this location part-time. I noticed that during this "trip" the Roamio is doing better on reception. It's getting just about every channel I try to watch without issues. The PBS stations used to be a problem but I've recorded "Washington Week" and "McLaughlin Group" on various channels without issue this time.

Meantime, the Premier in the other room is having problems with Channel 4 and Channel 7. The problems are intermittent. Sometimes a show on Channel 4 might be fine; other times it is unwatchable. My nightly recordings of Jimmy Kimmel are only watchable on the Roamio.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> The 5 mile away - you are either overloading the tuner, causing errors - or it is actually overshooting your location and the bounce back is causing quality of signal errors.
> 
> Remember in digital, the quality of the signal is more important that the signal strength, especially with OTA which has minimal error correction.


OK. I would buy that as an explanation except for two problematic facts:


every other OTA tuner that I've connected to that location does not experience this problem. Other OTA tuners that I've tested:
TiVo Roamio OTA (experiences issue)
TiVo Premiere (does not experience issue)
TiVO HDXL (does not experience issue)
Samsung TV (does not experience issue)
Panasonic TV (does not experience issue)
Avertv Tuner Kit for Windows (does not experience issue)
I would think that if overpowering the tuner were the problem then all these other tuners would also experience it. They don't. Only the tuner in the Roamio OTA
The network that's experiencing this problem is one of 4 networks that broadcast from 3 different towers ranging between 4.6 & 5.5 miles away. Two of those networks are broadcasting at 1000 kW (according to antennapoint). The other one broadcasting at that power is not causing any problems on any of my tuners.

Given the above, do you still think overloading is the problem?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

nycityuser said:


> No, no, I don't do drugs...
> 
> I should mention that I use indoor antennas situated near windows - one is taped to a window. Each TiVo machine has its own antenna. I am on the 2nd floor of a two story duplex. But I am in the "flatlands" as is CBS.
> 
> ...


What about KCBS, which you did not mention.

You do realize that KABC-7 is the only one you mentioned that stayed on VHF in the digital switch in 2009?

How close are you to the Fairfax Business District? On the second floor you are not that high up.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

mjh said:


> OK. I would buy that as an explanation except for two problematic facts:
> 
> 
> every other OTA tuner that I've connected to that location does not experience this problem. Other OTA tuners that I've tested:
> ...


It's impossible (well virtually) to say for certain what a reception issue is over the internet - only possibilities.

The flaw to your logic (listed above in bold) is to assume all TV receivers have the same chips and circuits - not to mention shielding, rejection and filters.

Even TiVo and Cable Supplied STBs at the same location have different signal and quality numbers.

In fact, Cable Supplied STBs of different types at the same location have different signal and quality numbers.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> The flaw to your logic (listed above in bold) is to assume all TV receivers have the same chips and circuits - not to mention shielding, rejection and filters.


But I don't assume that. It's part of my conclusion: that the chips, circuits, etc in the Roamio OTA can't handle what other OTA tuners can handle. The entire point that I'm trying to make is that it appears that the Roamio has poorer quality tuners compared to other OTA devices that I have. You were claiming that the problem I'm experiencing is due to overloading from the proximity of the broadcast tower. I'm claiming that isn't the problem, but that the problem lies in the hardware that the Roamio OTA uses.

I can't tell whether or not you agree with me or disagree. In one post you seem to think that its a tower proximity and not from a difference in tuner hardware (e.g. you disagree with me). But now you're suggesting that the issue is from a difference in tuner hardware (e.g. you agree with me). What am I missing?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mjh said:


> But I don't assume that. It's part of my conclusion: that the chips, circuits, etc in the Roamio OTA can't handle what other OTA tuners can handle. The entire point that I'm trying to make is that it appears that the Roamio has poorer quality tuners compared to other OTA devices that I have. You were claiming that the problem I'm experiencing is due to overloading from the proximity of the broadcast tower. I'm claiming that isn't the problem, but that the problem lies in the hardware that the Roamio OTA uses.
> 
> I can't tell whether or not you agree with me or disagree. In one post you seem to think that its a tower proximity and not from a difference in tuner hardware (e.g. you disagree with me). But now you're suggesting that the issue is from a difference in tuner hardware (e.g. you agree with me). What am I missing?


I will propose a third and what I consider to be most likely. Your Roamio OTA has an issue specific to it not the Roamio OTA line in general.

The best any of us can do is recommend things for you to try that may or may not help correct your problem. My recommendation is you try another Roamio OTA unit, if at all possible.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> I will propose a third and what I consider to be most likely. Your Roamio OTA has an issue specific to it not the Roamio OTA line in general.


I considered that. Tried to get TiVo to send me a replacement. They asked me to provide them an assortment of numbers from the DVR diagnostics, which I provided. Then they concluded that the signal was the problem and not the tuners, and closed the ticket. I do not see how they can conclude that there's no faulty tuners based on the tuner's self reporting data. But they were convinced.

They did give me an option to purchase another OTA and test with that. I declined.

Given that I've seen other threads describing this exact problem, and others who have not experienced it, I can think of two possibilities:


Maybe there's a production run that had a problem
Maybe those who don't notice it, aren't experiencing the specific problem. If it weren't for 3 networks, I wouldn't notice it either


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

mjh said:


> I considered that. Tried to get TiVo to send me a replacement. They asked me to provide them an assortment of numbers from the DVR diagnostics, which I provided. Then they concluded that the signal was the problem and not the tuners, and closed the ticket. I do not see how they can conclude that there's no faulty tuners based on the tuner's self reporting data. But they were convinced.
> 
> They did give me an option to purchase another OTA and test with that. I declined.
> 
> ...


You could buy a Roamio OTA from Best Buy for $50 and see if it has the same issues as your lifetime Roamio OTA. Then you would have evidence to report to Tivo customer support either way. It's highly unlikely that both Tivo's would be defective and you could compare the diagnostic information. You can always return the $50 Tivo to Best Buy when you are done.


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## tucsonbill (Aug 11, 2004)

Buckav9/9 said:


> Thanks. The channels are all there, but really blocky and with poor enough signal that they are cutting out 60-70% of the time. Without the Roamio attached, I can't remember the last time I had any signal cut out.


In the event that you haven't yet solved your problem my dumb question is have you inspected/replaced the cable to your roamio? preferably with the one that gives you perfect reception on your TV's tuner. I've been down a number of rabbit holes looking for problems with my d* setup and it always came down to a bad cable connection somewhere. Worth looking at anyway.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2016)

mjh said:


> But I don't assume that. It's part of my conclusion: that the chips, circuits, etc in the Roamio OTA can't handle what other OTA tuners can handle. The entire point that I'm trying to make is that it appears that the Roamio has poorer quality tuners compared to other OTA devices that I have. You were claiming that the problem I'm experiencing is due to overloading from the proximity of the broadcast tower. I'm claiming that isn't the problem, but that the problem lies in the hardware that the Roamio OTA uses.
> 
> I can't tell whether or not you agree with me or disagree. In one post you seem to think that its a tower proximity and not from a difference in tuner hardware (e.g. you disagree with me). But now you're suggesting that the issue is from a difference in tuner hardware (e.g. you agree with me). What am I missing?


I am not disagreeing. I am listing possibilities, as I noted, its virtually impossible to diagnose reception issues on a forum.

One can only look for what the problems could be and try to eliminate the possibilities one by one.

BTW, LA has a lot of challenges because of Mt Wilson and then the Santa Monica Mountains blocking the signal in a large portion of LA that most people hear about (Hollywood > WeHo > Beverly Hills > Bel Aire > Westwood/UCLA > Brentwood > Santa Monica > Pacific Palisades > Malibu).


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## nycityuser (Dec 30, 2004)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> What about KCBS, which you did not mention.
> 
> You do realize that KABC-7 is the only one you mentioned that stayed on VHF in the digital switch in 2009?
> 
> How close are you to the Fairfax Business District? On the second floor you are not that high up.


I did have a problem with KCBS for awhile on the Roamio.

I'm near Beverly & La Brea. Most buildings around are 2 stories or lower except for a few on La Brea.

I find that moving the coax wire that goes between the antenna and TiVo has an effect. The antenna taped to a window is in a (mostly empty) closet. I have the coax elevated at points with hangers as that actually impacts the reception.

It's all very quirky. Been this way for years with the Premiere.

I'm not that familiar with the technology so am not sure what you mean by KABC being the only channel I mentioned staying in the VHF range. To an old-timer like me VHF always meant channels 2-13. At any rate, my luck with KABC is no better nor worse than the others. I've had issue receiving every channel at various times. Adjusting the antenna or coax would fix the problem and usually result in a new one.

I should mention that I've also tried a variety of different indoor antennas. I'd read great reviews about one and buy it to test it out. Most of them went back to the sellers as there seemed to be no difference for me.


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## wtherrin (Jan 28, 2016)

My Roamio was working fine until late December but since I am having problems with several channels around the same frequency range pixilating and being un-watchable. I have had the cable folks check everything several times and even took my TIVO to their headend office only to see the same problems. All signals coming in are fine and all of my tvs with regular cable boxes work fine as does my old Tivo 2. What gives?


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## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

nycityuser said:


> I'm not that familiar with the technology so am not sure what you mean by KABC being the only channel I mentioned staying in the VHF range. To an old-timer like me VHF always meant channels 2-13.


In analog television (NTSC) a particular channel number always meant the same block of frequencies. So 2-13 were always VHF and the higher numbers were always UHF.

In digital television (ATSC) the mapping between channel number and frequency isn't fixed. During the NTSC-ATSC switchover many channels moved to new frequencies, but the flexible mapping allowed them to keep their old numbers. KCBS, for example, is still "channel 2" but it's now using the frequencies that used to belong to UHF channel 43 rather than the old VHF channel 2.

Note that the mapping of ATSC channels can be changed at any time, allowing channels to move between frequences if needed. During the period when NTSC and ATSC coexisted, the KCBS digital signal was on UHF 60 while the analog signal was on VHF 2. When analog was shut off, UHF 60 was part the 700 Mhz band that was taken away from TV (and auctioned off to cell phone companies) so KCBS had to move to UHF 43.

Fun historical footnote: KCBS started out on VHF channel 1, but had to move to VHF 2 when the government took away channel 1.


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## nycityuser (Dec 30, 2004)

tim1724 said:


> In analog television (NTSC) a particular channel number always meant the same block of frequencies. So 2-13 were always VHF and the higher numbers were always UHF
> 
> ...
> 
> Fun historical footnote: KCBS started out on VHF channel 1, but had to move to VHF 2 when the government took away channel 1.


Thank you for the very clear explanation of what's happening. As an aside, KCBS was called KNXT back in the day.


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## tim1724 (Jul 3, 2007)

nycityuser said:


> Thank you for the very clear explanation of what's happening. As an aside, KCBS was called KNXT back in the day.


Yep, short for "KNX TV" to go along with the CBS radio station.  And before that it had other names, but those were before my time.


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## jericko (Dec 31, 2015)

I too am having issues with my Tivo OTA, and its due to being too close to the Towers and having too strong of Signal.


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

jericko said:


> I too am having issues with my Tivo OTA, and its due to being too close to the Towers and having too strong of Signal.


https://www.antennasdirect.com/store/Variable-Attenuator.html

Buy one of these, and adjust your signal level. Or buy some fixed ones, and place them in line. Or if you have a splitter laying around, put that in your antenna line, and just don't use the other output. That will cut your signal by 3db or so, which might be enough.


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