# I thought six tuners was enough, but perhaps not ...



## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I recently replaced three Series 3 boxes with a Roamio Pro and two Minis. Since I pad all of my recordings, I tend to utilize more tuners than most people. I just checked the "To Do" List", and it looks like my machine will be using 5 tuners at once tonight. During this time, I won't even be able to stream live TV to one of the Minis. I guess six tuners isn't as many as I first thought.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It's the same number you had before. So you're no worse off. If all 6 tuners were recording on your previous setup you wouldn't have been able to watch live TV either.

You know that you CAN watch any of the the programs that are in the process of recording via one, or both, of the Minis right? Unlike the S3 units that required a recording to finish before you could start transferring it to watch via MRV.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> It's the same number you had before. So you're no worse off. If all 6 tuners were recording on your previous setup you wouldn't have been able to watch live TV either.
> 
> You know that you CAN watch any of the the programs that are in the process of recording via one, or both, of the Minis right? Unlike the S3 units that required a recording to finish before you could start transferring it to watch via MRV.


Yeah, I'm not complaining. I just thought it was interesting how six tuners seemed like so much until the TV season began. The Minis are both in rooms that don't get a lot of use, so it's really not a big deal at all. I may even get rid of one of my Premieres and replace it with another Mini.


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## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

I just upgraded from a TivoHD and I thought the same......but now that I'm recording all the new shows and padding everything, I found the other night where it would have needed 7 tuners.

Thankfully, most of these new shows will probably be cancelled before the 3rd episode.

-Kevin


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Well, six tuner feeds is the maximum for a single cablecard, so I don't think you guys will find a higher capacity box unless TiVo decides to make some kind of box for hard-core users that puts two cable-cards together again... or an IP delivery system comes along that can stream many, many HD streams simultaneously to a DVR.

When they do that they can also put in 1 petabyte of storage so that you can record everything on TV for several years and then pick and choose what you might eventually want to watch.


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## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

jmpage2 said:


> Well, six tuner feeds is the maximum for a single cablecard, so I don't think you guys will find a higher capacity box unless TiVo decides to make some kind of box for hard-core users that puts two cable-cards together again... or an IP delivery system comes along that can stream many, many HD streams simultaneously to a DVR.
> 
> When they do that they can also put in 1 petabyte of storage so that you can record everything on TV for several years and then pick and choose what you might eventually want to watch.


Yeah....it's more of an interesting observation not a complaint. Heck, coming from 2 tuners it's great! Although wouldn't lie......a 2 Mcard Tivo with dual 4TB drives would be pretty cool 

I'm more interested in maybe Tivo tweaking software to handle back-to-back overlaps (like the interesting bug I ran across the other night http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=509458). If they could use a single tuner for back to back programs that overlap that would free up other tuners.

-Kevin


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

within a week of a dual m-card box with 4TB of storage coming out there would be "power users" who would be decrying the lack of a three m-card box with 12TB of storage.....

"I just like to really record every show that's on.... I mean, you know, something might be good, and maybe a year or two later I'd like to re-visit that show and start watching it".


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

6 tuners is plenty for me . I have yet to even see all 6 lights on at the same time. Although there could have been a few minutes here or there where they were due to padding and I just didn't notice.

There are only 4 major network channels (5 if you count The WB) and everything on cable repeats, so I can't imagine a situation where I'd ever need more then 6 tuners. In fact if TiVo ever added a feature that would share data between back to back recordings so that padding shows didn't require 2 tuners I'd only ever need 4


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I've got 12 tuners available right now, but most of the time 6 is enough for me. This past week alone I've had plenty of occasions with 5 parallel recordings during prime time on my Roamio and I don't use any padding and never enable suggestions.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

Why the heck would you pad every recording??


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> Why the heck would you pad every recording??


OCD


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Most stations are pretty good. But on some comedies I have to pad to get that last little bit at the end. A lot of cable channels seem to be off a bit on their timing, both start and end, so I tend to pad all of them, just in case. but since they repeat all the time that doesn't typically cause conflicts.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

BlackBetty said:


> Why the heck would you pad every recording??


Because the majority, if not the vast majority, of stuff I record needs it?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mattack said:


> Because the majority, if not the vast majority, of stuff I record needs it?


Just the opposite for me. It's rare that I need to pad my SPs. So far I've also had no issues with any of the new show recordings. They have all ended without anything being cut off.

Besides I'd have major problems if I tried to pad a bunch of SPs. I don't clip any recordings and I'm already using six tuners concurrently just about every evening. With the new shows SP, I am recording a little more than normal. So hopefully once I delete that and add the permanent SPs. I won't have a dozen conflicts each two week period like I have right now.


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

BlackBetty said:


> Why the heck would you pad every recording??


Because TiVo guide data isn't quite right, and a number of shows run long and/or start early.

This is a recurring problem for me. It's more manageable with six tuners. But it's still a nuisance.


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## TC25D (Aug 21, 2013)

ShoutingMan said:


> Because TiVo guide data isn't quite right, and a number of shows run long and/or start early.
> 
> This is a recurring problem for me. It's more manageable with six tuners. But it's still a nuisance.


It's not just TiVo guide data that's not quite right. I had the same problem with my cable company DVR guide data.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

ShoutingMan said:


> Because TiVo guide data isn't quite right, and a number of shows run long and/or start early.
> 
> This is a recurring problem for me. It's more manageable with six tuners. But it's still a nuisance.





TC25D said:


> It's not just TiVo guide data that's not quite right. I had the same problem with my cable company DVR guide data.


That's because it's not the guide data that is off, it is the networks and/or local affiliates.


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## Riverdome (May 12, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> That's because it's not the guide data that is off, it is the networks and/or local affiliates.


I wonder if it isn't the locals because with ~60 SP we wish we had padded something maybe once/twice a year. As was mentioned it's usually that last joke or the preview of the next episode.


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## aeternal (Jul 3, 2013)

We have become spoiled huh?  TV shows have drastically increased in quality over the last decade or so. AMC, A&E, DISCOVERY, etc. have definitely made the jump to be in line with the big boys. I am curious as to how many Roamio folks watch every single show they record or if it is more about sharing the DVR with shows that your wife, husband, son, daughter etc. want to watch on their own.

I'm definitely guilty of watching TV too much as well. I just fear one day we will have 2,000+ channels, 20 Tuner boxes and get our direct fix by plugging in a cord Matrix style in the back of our head lol.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I expect the number of tuners to decrease in the future, potentially to zero. Where the content is streamed instead received with a tuner.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

aeternal said:


> I just fear one day we will have 2,000+ channels, 20 Tuner boxes and get our direct fix by plugging in a cord Matrix style in the back of our head lol.





aaronwt said:


> I expect the number of tuners to decrease in the future, potentially to zero. Where the content is streamed instead received with a tuner.


Exactly. At some point, everything will be available on demand. It's not a question of if, but when.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I have two XL4s and one Premiere, along with two minis. So, effectively at this particular time I have 10 tuners, though I can only use 8 of them for any combination of recording/live due to mini tuner consumption. That's not terrible. I've learned to live without padding, though more and more I'm losing the last bit of an increasing number of major network shows. 

I would agree that at some point, the number of tuners will stop increasing and maybe functionality will change, as more streaming content will become the standard. Of course, as that happens it will likely create further competition for Tivo, as there is no real need for Tivo at that time and other solutions have proven to be better at delivering streaming content.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

gweempose said:


> Exactly. At some point, everything will be available on demand. It's not a question of if, but when.


Sure and if Netflix is any indication the quality will stink and show availability will change every time the wind blows.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

jmpage2 said:


> Sure and if Netflix is any indication the quality will stink and show availability will change every time the wind blows.


Well, availability changes with the wind already. How many shows have you seen get canned in the middle of a run with no resolution to any of the plot turns?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

gweempose said:


> Exactly. At some point, everything will be available on demand. It's not a question of if, but when.


ABC and FOX OD will not let you fast forward, you have no control, streaming has it place, but if normal TV goes away the experience of TV watching will go back to the 70s as you may not control ad skipping, all you would have is time shifting, I could not stand not being able to skip say parts of the nightly news that I have no interest in or have already seen, this lets me see the CBS,NBC and ABC nightly news in about 45 to 50 minutes. I do this skipping with other programs as well, if say Jay has a guest on that I want to see, the next day I may skip directly to that guest and not have to watch the rest of Jays tonight show, I love the control TiVo gives me.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> There are only 4 major network channels (5 if you count *The WB*)


This made me laugh. You don't get out much, do you Dan?


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

jmpage2 said:


> Sure and if Netflix is any indication the quality will stink ...


Are you referring to the quality of the content, or the picture quality? PQ will only get better as bandwidth increases and compression algorithms improve.


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## kbmb (Jun 22, 2004)

gweempose said:


> Are you referring to the quality of the content, or the picture quality? PQ will only get better as bandwidth increases and compression algorithms improve.


Gotta say.....the SuperHD that Netflix just rolled out looks pretty darn good to me.

-Kevin


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jmpage2 said:


> Sure and if Netflix is any indication the quality will stink and show availability will change every time the wind blows.


 Don't know about your experience but to me Netflix Super HD feeds (6Mbps H.264) look better than most "HD" channels from my cable company. Amazon HD downloads still trump Netflix streaming though from my experience.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

gweempose said:


> Exactly. At some point, everything will be available on demand. It's not a question of if, but when.


And that will be a sad day in many respects, because you will lose control over how you watch a show.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

slowbiscuit said:


> And that will be a sad day in many respects, because you will lose control over how you watch a show.


Much of what I watch now I wouldn't watch at all if I were forced to sit through all the commercials. I guess I would have more time to do other things though. We will always have the option of just saying no.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

L David Matheny said:


> Much of what I watch now I wouldn't watch at all if I were forced to sit through all the commercials.


Agreed. After using DVRs for so many years, I've come to positively loathe commercials. It's the main reason I can't stand watching stuff on Hulu.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm surprised that Hulu doesn't offer a premium "commercial free" option for more money per month. I bet a lot of their customers would pay for it.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I'm surprised that Hulu doesn't offer a premium "commercial free" option for more money per month. I bet a lot of their customers would pay for it.


Hulu would probably love to offer that, but I imagine that the networks won't allow it... at least at this time.

6mbps Super HD on Netflix. I checked it out today and it's a big improvement but on my 65" Plasma BD still looks noticeably better, especially during lots of motion, dark scenes, etc.

I agree with what slowbiscuit said. While many are cheering the idea of an "all you can eat buffet" of on-demand shows, it is highly likely that after they get everyone hooked they will jam them full of trailers, pop up ads, commercials and other things.

If I really like something I don't count on "on demand" making it available for me, I buy it on Blu-ray, rip it to MKV and store the discs in a bin in my basement.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

jmpage2 said:


> 6mbps Super HD on Netflix. I checked it out today and it's a big improvement but on my 65" Plasma BD still looks noticeably better, especially during lots of motion, dark scenes, etc.


BDs typically use 25-35Mbps, so it makes sense that it looks better. What's funny is that 6Mbps is considered "Super HD". In Europe they broadcast in H.264 and they still use 8-12Mbps.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

jmpage2 said:


> 6mbps Super HD on Netflix. I checked it out today and it's a big improvement but on my 65" Plasma BD still looks noticeably better, especially during lots of motion, dark scenes, etc.


When it comes to streaming, Vudu's HDX is still the one to beat. It's not quite as good as BD, but it's pretty darn impressive. Too bad it costs so much.


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## Mr Tony (Dec 20, 2012)

Dan203 said:


> There are only 4 major network channels (5 if you count The WB) and everything on cable repeats, so I can't imagine a situation where I'd ever need more then 6 tuners.


sports


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

jmpage2 said:


> 6mbps Super HD on Netflix. I checked it out today and it's a big improvement but on my 65" Plasma BD still looks noticeably better, especially during lots of motion, dark scenes, etc


 Well sure, against BD it's no contest. But for me compared to most cable "HD" it's very good.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> BDs typically use 25-35Mbps, so it makes sense that it looks better. What's funny is that 6Mbps is considered "Super HD". In Europe they broadcast in H.264 and they still use 8-12Mbps.


Well, it's a topic for another discussion but yes, the US broadband infrastructure is woefully inadequate for the task of streaming close to BD quality, especially as streaming becomes the 'norm'. Don't even get me started on mid viewing glitches, down-shift from HD to SD, etc... all courtesy of streaming.

H265 will help but I think that BD will survive as a format for collectors of movies and shows for at least another 5-10 years.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I don't know I watch a lot of movies via VUDU in their HDX quality and they're indistinguishable from BD to my eyes. I think they use like 10Mbs.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I don't know I watch a lot of movies via VUDU in their HDX quality and they're indistinguishable from BD to my eyes. I think they use like 10Mbs.


In my experience BD is still better. Also on the audio front streaming is a joke. 99% of content has 640kbps DD 5.1 at BEST. I have a $5K+ audio setup and those low bit rate audio tracks typically sound pretty crappy.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I don't know I watch a lot of movies via VUDU in their HDX quality and they're indistinguishable from BD to my eyes. I think they use like 10Mbs.


VUDU does look good. I've been using Vudu since 2007 and it has improved alot since six years ago.. But if I compare Vudu directly to a BD, the difference is easy to see. But Vudu is still very good and convenient.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I'm surprised that Hulu doesn't offer a premium "commercial free" option for more money per month. I bet a lot of their customers would pay for it.


I don't have a citation, but I'm fairly certain that they *claim* that they barely ever get requests for it. I sure think the guy on the Engadget HD podcast has mentioned that.

(I've said it before -- as big of a fan of Tivo as I am, I'd pay MORE than I pay now for cable, if I could just get "everything", without commercials. I put everything in quotes, since I realize there are licensing deals and it's not literally everything always.. but e.g. current shows, and at least sometimes past seasons.. I'd probably want to still have ONE OTA capable Tivo going for the few things I want to record to keep... but mostly being able to not have to deal with tuners, disk space limitations, padding, etc.. would be great.)


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

lpwcomp said:


> That's because it's not the guide data that is off, it is the networks and/or local affiliates.


TiVo's guide data does not reflect reality. So it is tivos fault. They're selling a service of a trustworthy DVR. They should strive harder to provide that.

This is not a new issue. TiVo could work, perhaps through crowd sourcing, to quickly update their guide data to be accurate, rather tan chronically off by two minutes in both directions.


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## stahta01 (Dec 23, 2001)

ShoutingMan said:


> TiVo's guide data does not reflect reality. So it is tivos fault. They're selling a service of a trustworthy DVR. They should strive harder to provide that.
> 
> This is not a new issue. TiVo could work, perhaps through crowd sourcing, to quickly update their guide data to be accurate, rather tan chronically off by two minutes in both directions.


Yeah, this way they can be off by hours.



Tim S.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

ShoutingMan said:


> TiVo's guide data does not reflect reality. So it is tivos fault. They're selling a service of a trustworthy DVR. They should strive harder to provide that.
> 
> This is not a new issue. TiVo could work, perhaps through crowd sourcing, to quickly update their guide data to be accurate, rather tan chronically off by two minutes in both directions.


It's TiVo's fault that the scheduling data provided to them by the networks and local stations (through TMS) is inaccurate? It is not "chronically off by two minutes in both directions", at least not for most people.

"crowd sourcing"? How the heck would that help?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

There have been hacks that in older TiVo models implemented very acceptable methods of dealing with a couple minute differences in almost all situations. It's a shame TiVo hasn't implemented those itself. Specifically, automatically scheduling recordings a few minutes early through a few minutes later, without permitting such adjustments to cause a scheduled recording to be missed or cut. Those, plus an enhancement to permit a level of sharing between recorded videos such that a few minutes of overlapping video -- after a prior recording and before the next one, on the same channel, could be "owned" by both recordings.


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## NJguy (Sep 11, 2013)

jmpage2 said:


> Well, six tuner feeds is the maximum for a single cablecard, so I don't think you guys will find a higher capacity box unless TiVo decides to make some kind of box for hard-core users that puts two cable-cards together again... or an IP delivery system comes along that can stream many, many HD streams simultaneously to a DVR.
> 
> When they do that they can also put in 1 petabyte of storage so that you can record everything on TV for several years and then pick and choose what you might eventually want to watch.


May not find a higher capacity box with cablecards but cable companies are moving forward with their own service (no matter how bad it may be). For instance, Cablevision has a whole home solution that allows you to record 10 shows at once.

What they fail to tell you is: You cannot rewind live TV, you only get a lousy 75 hours of HD recording, they story your recordings in the cloud (so there is no hard drive in your home), rewinding and fast forwarding through shows you record are terrible and lag is noticeable, you get bad pixelation because it's being sent from cloud, the Samsung boxes are not great and the cost for 3 TV's is $7 more per month than monthly cost of a TiVo Roamio and 2 mini's.

So while it sounds good on commercials and in principle, the negatives of that far outweigh the positive and TiVo is way ahead of the game.


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## jmpage2 (Jan 21, 2004)

It comes down to how much consumers care about quality, and if Hulu is any indication the answer is "not much".


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## ShoutingMan (Jan 6, 2008)

lpwcomp said:


> It's TiVo's fault that the scheduling data provided to them by the networks and local stations (through TMS) is inaccurate? It is not "chronically off by two minutes in both directions", at least not for most people.
> 
> "crowd sourcing"? How the heck would that help?


It's TiVo fault that they give incorrect data to their customers. They should be reviewing and correcting data it before passing it on for DVR scheduling.

I've encountered a few shows that are off by a couple minutes, for multiple seasons. (Fox seems particularly bad about this) but its a consistent thing , and should be booked into the guide data. And there's also the problem of sports and presidential speeches that delay shows; Tivo should be pushing out guide updates to account for those delays.

What might they do? First, focus on prime time network show. Prioritize by most popular and make sure guide data matches actual broadcast times in major markets. Fix it if its off by a half a minute. That's the difference between enjoying a show and yelling at the stupid TiVo for ruining the ending.

They could review users' season pass data. If people tend to pad recordings of a show, that probably means that shows guide data is wrong. So make a fix. And implement that fix for the next season automatically.

Looking to the next gen TiVo, I'd like to see realtime push data. If potus is speechifying, push revised guide data to me immediately. Football shouldnt cause The Good Wife to be missed. I get email and texts within seconds of them being sent; there's no reason TiVo can't get me updates sooner than two weeks after its too late.


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

aeternal said:


> ...
> 
> I'm definitely guilty of watching TV too much as well. I just fear one day we will have 2,000+ channels, 20 Tuner boxes and get our direct fix by plugging in a cord Matrix style in the back of our head lol.


Hey, how did you know about the new TiVo Series Six they're working on?!?!?! You must be part of the "Super Secret Squirrel Beta program"!


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## HarperVision (May 14, 2007)

ShoutingMan said:


> ...Football shouldn't cause The Good Wife to be missed...


And you call yourself "Shouting*MAN*"? Sheesh


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

ShoutingMan said:


> It's TiVo fault that they give incorrect data to their customers. They should be reviewing and correcting data it before passing it on for DVR scheduling.
> 
> I've encountered a few shows that are off by a couple minutes, for multiple seasons. (Fox seems particularly bad about this) but its a consistent thing , and should be booked into the guide data. And there's also the problem of sports and presidential speeches that delay shows; Tivo should be pushing out guide updates to account for those delays.
> 
> ...


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> There are only 4 major network channels (5 if you count The WB) and everything on cable repeats, so I can't imagine a situation where I'd ever need more then 6 tuners.


The Olympics.

YMMV.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

How many different channels broadcast the olympics simultaneously? More then 6.They're going to be on in the middle of the night because of the time difference so I can't imagine they'll conflict with anything other then themselves.


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## uw69 (Jan 25, 2001)

Six tuners is more than enough for my household, but I can see a situation where large households, with multiple Mini's, it could reduce the number of available tuners to below a comfortable level.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

lpwcomp said:


>


I thought about a long, lengthy, well thought out reply, discussing all the issues SMan raises, but I see you beat me to it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I think eight tuners would be perfect for me based on the conflicts I'm still seeing. But I wouldn't want to go back to paying for another cable card. I still can't believe I used to have eight of them on FiOS(and two on Comcast) It's so much better now having to pay for only one cable card.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I had 6 at one point, now I'm down to 3. But I really don't need one of them. I have it in a Premiere, but that Premiere has been relegated to recording only analog channels so I don't actually need it. But Charter only charges $1.50/mo for them so it's really not a big deal.


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