# Tivo 3D?



## Bill McNeal (May 31, 2002)

3D TVs are apparently the Next Big Thing. I imagine in 3-4 years we'll see the Tivo Series 5/Tivo 3D.

Is this even possible, assuming continued improvements in processor? Could a Tivo 3D support multiple proprietary 3D technologies for Sony/Panasonic/Samsung and their glasses?

Now that would be something to demonstrate that "inventing the DVR was just a warmup."


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## Enrique (May 15, 2006)

Bill McNeal said:


> 3D TVs are apparently the Next Big Thing. I imagine in 3-4 years we'll see the Tivo Series 5/Tivo 3D.


It took this long for tivo to update their UI, I laugh to think how long it's going to take to implement something like this.

3-4, no way.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

From what I gather, the 3D standard just requires HDMI 1.4. As long as your device outputs on HDMI 1.4 it can support 3D. The signal sent to all televisions are the same.. the "proprietary 3D technologies" are what each TV does with that signal. The Premiere only has HDMI 1.3 out. 
So yes. Tivo 4.1 or 5 will most likely replace the 1.3 port with HDMI 1.4 and thus allow 3D output.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

Bill McNeal said:


> 3D TVs are apparently the Next Big Thing. I imagine in 3-4 years we'll see the Tivo Series 5/Tivo 3D.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I'd certainly like to see it; my Mits TV supports it and my PS3 will sometime this year. And ESPN will broadcast a few programs in 3D this year; hopefully TiVo won't fall 3-4 years behind the curve on this.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bschuler2007 said:


> So yes. Tivo 4.1 or 5 will most likely replace the 1.3 port with HDMI 1.4 and thus allow 3D output.


now with new and improved ads in 3D that no longer sit unobtrusively on your flat 2D screen 

I just had to


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I'm actually kind of curious about this new 3D technology. I can't really watch 3D movies at the theater, something about them hurts my eyes and gives me a headache. The few times I've tried I ended up watching most of the movie with one eye shut. However, from what I've read, the active shutter glasses they use with these new TVs is suppose to work a lot better then the polarized glasses they use at the theater. I'd really like to try out one of these new setups and see if it causes the same eye strain problem I have at the theater.

As for TiVo supporting it... Maybe some day, but I doubt it'll be in 3-4 years. I doubt there will even be anything available in 3D besides BluRay in 3-4 years. The OTA and cable broadcast standards don't support [email protected], so the only people who might be able to broadcast 3D are going to be the DSS providers anyway. And a 3D movie is going to be pretty large (30-40GB) so it's going to be a while before we see them available from download services like Amazon or Netflix.

Dan


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## Andrew_S (Nov 12, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I doubt there will even be anything available in 3D besides BluRay in 3-4 years. The OTA and cable broadcast standards don't support [email protected], so the only people who might be able to broadcast 3D are going to be the DSS providers anyway.


ESPN 3D is coming this year (starting with the World Cup this summer) and will carried by both DSS and cable. Not sure how either is going to handle the 3D as neither support HDMI 1.4 with their equipment. The Playstation 3 will support a lower resolution 3D image over its HDMI 1.3 outputs. Maybe DSS and Cable will follow the same path.


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

Yeah.. several TV networks announced they are launching 3D versions within the next year. ESPN 3D starts airing live in June! To me the best part is: It will start off commercial free! I would expect cable companies to first launch HDMI 1.4 compatable boxes as part of a 3D programming tier and eventually as standard equipment. The 3D version uses the same bandwidth as HD cable.. so no special equipment is needed except the HDMI 1.4 output to the TV.

So yeah, I would also expect the Tivo Premiere to be much like the Series3/TivoHD. I think they will have to change the Premiere to support 3D. Premiere/Premiere3D.


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## knuckles (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't see 3D making it big until you don't have to wear any goofy glasses.


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## CowDuo (Mar 10, 2010)

Pretty soon your regular glasses will support 3D.

Some contacts, too, I suspect.

LCD panels require active shutter glasses (big, expensive).

But plasma, LED and OLED can use polarized light like 3D movies have today.


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## OLdDog (Dec 15, 2001)

Would not a TiVo 3D actually be 4D since time is the 4th dimension and TiVo does shift time therefore it is 4D. 

Or, maybe, it just crosses over into the Twilight Zone...


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## bobdirt (Feb 26, 2010)

OLdDog said:


> Would not a TiVo 3D actually be 4D since time is the 4th dimension and TiVo does shift time therefore it is 4D.
> 
> Or, maybe, it just crosses over into the Twilight Zone...


why no because the tivo it self doesnt shift time it self but more moves tv shows to the time that is best suited for you  and with that point it is amazing that we are bring 3D finally to are setup i have had some friends talk about how amazing it would be to have 3D tv for your home and what would it be like playing a video game (Call Of Duty MW2) while in a 3D state now i think this would be awsome


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## geltdrakken (Mar 11, 2010)

OH man the headaches I am already having trying to integrate old with new. And now 3D? AAAAAAAh. Where's the 20th century when you need it. Things were so much slower then. Why, in my day.....


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## geltdrakken (Mar 11, 2010)

knuckles said:


> I don't see 3D making it big until you don't have to wear any goofy glasses.


Awwww, I like the goofy glasses. The red and blue ones remind me that there really was a 1950's. So they told me.


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## geltdrakken (Mar 11, 2010)

OK now I've got 5 threads. That wasn't too hard


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I just read an article about this in one of my magazines (I think it was CPU) and they said that this whole technology is based on a special extension to the H.264 codec. As far as I know there are no cable companies in the US broadcasting in H.264, so I can't see how they could possibly broadcast this ESPN 3D channel. Both Dish and DirecTV use H.264, so they can probably support it with special receivers, but it would be a major transition for cable.

Dan


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> I'm actually kind of curious about this new 3D technology. I can't really watch 3D movies at the theater, something about them hurts my eyes and gives me a headache. The few times I've tried I ended up watching most of the movie with one eye shut. However, from what I've read, the active shutter glasses they use with these new TVs is suppose to work a lot better then the polarized glasses they use at the theater. I'd really like to try out one of these new setups and see if it causes the same eye strain problem I have at the theater.
> 
> As for TiVo supporting it... Maybe some day, but I doubt it'll be in 3-4 years. I doubt there will even be anything available in 3D besides BluRay in 3-4 years. The OTA and cable broadcast standards don't support [email protected], so the only people who might be able to broadcast 3D are going to be the DSS providers anyway. And a 3D movie is going to be pretty large (30-40GB) so it's going to be a while before we see them available from download services like Amazon or Netflix.


Our local Best Buy manager just tweeted today that he picked up a new Samsung 3D LCD to set up in the store. I suspect that likely means most Best Buy stores will soon be getting in the technology so you can go to the nearest one and see how you react to it.


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## Andrew_S (Nov 12, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> it would be a major transition for cable.
> 
> Dan


Comcast is in negotiations to carry ESPN 3D.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

Given the debacle that setting up HDTV was for most of the population, 3D is going to be worse.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

tiassa said:


> Given the debacle that setting up HDTV was for most of the population, 3D is going to be worse.


Nothing can be as bad as CableCARD installs were, and sometimes still are, though.

But then some providers get it right. Service Electric, who services the area my mom lives, lets you just pick up the card, take it home, insert it in the unit, go online, enter the code off the card, push a button. Authorized 5 seconds later, and working.

No unnecessary pairing; no ridiculous requirements of tech visits; not even hassles of teaching CSRs their job. They even had a small card with instructions they handed out with the CableCARD.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

bschuler2007 said:


> From what I gather, the 3D standard just requires HDMI 1.4.


Actually, on one of the EngadgetHD podcasts (which I'm now listening to due to a mention here), they say that 1.3 can really handle it too. I don't remember the exact thing they said, but it sounded like the 1.4 recommendation (stated as a "requirement" for regular users) is really a bandwidth thing and not a technology requirement, if you see what I mean.. and proper 1.3 conforming devices *could* handle it.

(speaking as someone who hasn't actually used HDMI myself...)


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

An HDMI 1.3 output device can output the data necessary for 3D display support conforming to the standard that's in the HDMI 1.4 spec, and an HDMI 1.4 compliant display device can accept that data and use it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I just read an article about this in one of my magazines (I think it was CPU) and they said that this whole technology is based on a special extension to the H.264 codec. As far as I know there are no cable companies in the US broadcasting in H.264, so I can't see how they could possibly broadcast this ESPN 3D channel. Both Dish and DirecTV use H.264, so they can probably support it with special receivers, but it would be a major transition for cable.
> 
> Dan


I know NOTHING about the subject-

but why not just get an h.264 encoder at the headend (if they even need one- couldn't they just pass through ESPN's 3D feed unchanged a la fox OTA?) and then had out hdmi 1.4 boxes that can decode h.264 to customers that pay for the new 3D package? Probably the boxes would cost very little more- no?

The law allows them to innovate without following standards so they could start tomorrow if they wanted- tivo and the other 3rd parties would have to suck it up just like they did for SDV at the beginning (and some would argue still do today).


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

See

```
http://dvice.com/archives/2009/12/no-new-blu-ray.php
```
The important part:


> "And you won't get full 1080p 3D via an upgraded HDMI 1.3 box, either  just half or quarter resolution, depending on the source. HDMI 1.3 isn't powerful enough to stream near-simultaneous 1080p frames. From a full 1080p source such as Blu-ray or a satellite receiver, you'll instead get dual 1080i images to create 3D; from a cable box, you'll get dual 540i images. I've been told the difference between full 1080p 3D and 540i 3D is essentially the difference between Blu-ray and DVD, which for most people is not that big of a difference."


So HDMI 1.4 is still required to get 1080p 3D.


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## Hew (Apr 18, 2004)

Anyone else notice that 3d glasses come with the Tivo Premier XL?
http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere/index.html

Scroll over to the 5th thumbnail that shows the two tivo retail boxes, and you'll see it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Hew said:


> Anyone else notice that 3d glasses come with the Tivo Premier XL?
> http://www.tivo.com/products/tivo-premiere/index.html
> 
> Scroll over to the 5th thumbnail that shows the two tivo retail boxes, and you'll see it.


Those are blue tinted glasses used in the THX display calibration process.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

Looks like Cablevision (my provider) will be broadcasting some Rangers games in 3D HD using the existing Scientific Atlanta boxes. If those old boxes can do 3D, I bet Tivo HD (or at least Premiere) can do it.

http://optimum.com/io/3d/index.jsp?s_cid=3dtv&referrer=http://optimum.com/3dtv


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

There is little doubt that the TivoHD should be able to record and display 720p 3D, per the article I mentioned above. 

But for me, I just do alot of Pytivo blu-ray rip HD playback and want full 1080p 3D out of my Tivo as that would be the holy grail at this point to be future proof till something like 4k emerges.
If you don't watch blu-ray rips or 1080p 3D broadcasts (dunno if they will exist), then the Premiere should be fine.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

dswallow said:


> Our local Best Buy manager just tweeted today that he picked up a new Samsung 3D LCD to set up in the store. I suspect that likely means most Best Buy stores will soon be getting in the technology so you can go to the nearest one and see how you react to it.


Our local Best Buy does have a 3D demo on a Samsung LCD TV, the glasses are electronic but you would not know it from looking at them, they look and feel like the movie theaters ones, 2 cost about $150 including a charging pad. The 3D demo I saw was from BD player connected to the TV, personally I thought the resolution was not as good as a normal BD should have been.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

MichaelK said:


> I know NOTHING about the subject-
> 
> but why not just get an h.264 encoder at the headend (if they even need one- couldn't they just pass through ESPN's 3D feed unchanged a la fox OTA?) and then had out hdmi 1.4 boxes that can decode h.264 to customers that pay for the new 3D package? Probably the boxes would cost very little more- no?
> 
> The law allows them to innovate without following standards so they could start tomorrow if they wanted- tivo and the other 3rd parties would have to suck it up just like they did for SDV at the beginning (and some would argue still do today).


I could be wrong but I think this conflicts with the CableCARD standard. I'm pretty sure that the CableCARD standard requires that the video be transmitted in MPEG-2 format. Since the cable companies themselves were forced to start using CableCARDs a couple years back this would be a major transition for them.

Dan


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> I could be wrong but I think this conflicts with the CableCARD standard. I'm pretty sure that the CableCARD standard requires that the video be transmitted in MPEG-2 format. Since the cable companies themselves were forced to start using CableCARDs a couple years back this would be a major transition for them.
> 
> Dan


oh- so the 3d is mpeg4?

But actually I know there's something in the tuning adapter spec that the box can tell the headend it can handle MPEG4- so maybe they already started updating things to handle mpeg4 in limited use?


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Technically it is MPEG-4, but that's not the moniker you'd use to describe it. You see the MPEG-4 specification actually contains two video compression standards. The first one is Part 2, which is basically the same technology used for DivX and Xvid. It's older, less efficient, and for the most part starting to get phased out. This is the one that most people call "MPEG-4". The second one is Part 10, which is more commonly known as H.264 or AVC. This one is a significant improvement over Part 2 and is the one used for BluRays, YouTube, Hulu, Amazon HD, etc... It is also the one that got the 3D extension. So while it is still technically part of the MPEG-4 specification, it's usually called H.264 or AVC to differentiate it from the original Part 2 standard. My point is that not all devices that support MPEG-4 actually support H.264/AVC, so the MPEG-4 moniker can be a little misleading.

That being said... Even if the tuning adapter specification supports H.264 in some fashion most of the cable companies own boxes do not. In fact I'm pretty sure that there a no cable companies in this entire country broadcasting in H.264, and I seriously doubt they are going to upgrade all their equipment by June just to support ESPN HD. DirecTV can get away with it because they started broadcasting all their HD channels in H.264 a few years ago, so a significant portion of their users already have STBs that can decode this new channel. For cable companies it would be a major transition.

I do believe that cable companies will eventually shift to H.264. If for no other reason then to cram more channels into their limited bandwidth. However in the short term eliminating analog channels, and using technologies like SDV, accomplish the same goal without making them upgrade all their equipment. So I'm guessing it's still going to be a few more years.

Dan


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

I recorded the 3D Rangers vs Islanders game on the Tivo HD tonight just to see what would happen. You get 2 images side-by-side. I'm very curious to see what would happen if I fed this to a 3D HDTV. I suspect that TivoHD is fully 3D ready. Maybe just wishful thinking.

I believe Cablevision is using an MPEG-2 transmission in this case. I got about an hour and KMTTG is showing 8.26GB at 18.45MPS. The video is protected so I can't transfer it to my PC.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Hmmm... The article I read about the special extension to H.264 was for BluRay. It was some sort of compatibility extension so that the BluRay players which actually support 3D could output the entire signal, while those that couldn't would only output one perspective to prevent the double image you describe. (i.e. one disc could be either 3D or 2D with only a 50&#37; space penalty rather then having to do two separate encodes of the movie on different discs)

Perhaps this cable channel is more primitive and simply uses a 720p signal at 59.94fps with every other frame carrying the signal for the other eye. This wouldn't work as well as [email protected] technology that BluRay 3D will use, but it should still be watchable. Plus it would require absolutely no special hardware to decode. Pretty much any device could be upgraded to support it as long as the TV it was connected to was capable of syncing to the shutter glasses. The TV might even be able to do some sort of frame doubling during display to increase quality.

Dan


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

On a side note to TivoHD and Tivo Premiere being 100&#37; 720p 3D compatable, I did see atleast one channel is planning on 1080 3D transmission.

So maybe they won't be 100% 3D TV broadcast capable with only hdmi 1.3 after all? And 1080 broadcast?


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

Andrew_S said:


> ESPN 3D is coming this year (starting with the World Cup this summer)


I wonder if cameramen and directors will still be composing content for 4:3 like they continue to do now. Kind of a joke that it might take 3-D to actually force these folks to reframe their shots to take advantage of 16:9.


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## dbtom (Feb 14, 2002)

Dan203,

I don't think there is any requirement to use an advanced CODEC for 3D. It's probably better use of bandwidth, but I think you can do 3D under MPEG-2.

See here for Cable Labs announcement (no Codecs mentioned):

http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2010/10_pr_3d_010510.html


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## Mark McM (Oct 24, 2007)

Apparantly, Comcast will be broadcasting coverage of the Masters (is this a golf tournament?) in 3D. They have a FAQ about it here:

http://customer.comcast.com/Pages/FAQListViewer.aspx?topic=Cable&folder=a743b352-cea4-45f4-a2a5-06c5ef913e31

They have a specific topic in the FAQ about Tivo:

"If your TiVo device is an HD-capable device with 1080i output, and you have a Comcast CableCard, you will be able to view the tournament coverage in 3D using your TiVo box and channel guide. You must still have Comcast's Digital Starter TV service or above and use an HDMI cable connection between the TiVo and your television. You will not be able to view Masters Video On Demand programming content with your TiVo."


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## bschuler2007 (Feb 25, 2007)

That would be because The Masters will be broadcast in 720 3D...

Personally.. When I think of 3D, I think of all the animated features released in 3D. Those all will be 1080p Blu-ray.. so looking forward, I want 1080p 3D support.. wich isn't avail on the Premiere due to HDMI 1.3. I guess you could transcode it down to 720... but I really want HDMI 1.4 (native support for 3D 1080p and 3D blu-ray standards) added.


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

I thought this short note from the dealer side was worthy:

http://www.televisionbroadcast.com/article/97564

Dan's analysis of the technical issues is solid, and I'm firmly in the 'bridge too far' camp - given that 3D will need to be stoked by early adaptors, and given that those early adaptors just got done stepping up through 480 to 720 to 1080 and up to lossless blu-ray audio and the rest, I think this is a very tough sell.

Scott A.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

There are actually two different standards being used for 3D, one for the BluRay Players and one being used for sat and cable.

The BluRay is the best since it maintains full resolution by outputting 120 fps, frames alternating left-eye and right eye. This is the format that requires the hdmi 1.4 standard.

Sat and cable are using a side-by-side frame (for left-eye and right eye). Any device supporting hdmi (1.4 not required) should be able to handle it. However, it does not (currently) operate with Component connections. The downside of this is a reduced resolution. It will handle both 1080i and 720p, but neither at full resolution.

The TiVo should not have a problem with this, if you are using HDMI.

Per Comcast website:



> If you have an HD capable set top box with HDMI output, or CableCard with an HD capable device (Moxi or TiVo) you will not need a new set top box to view Masters 3D content. As Comcast makes additional 3D content available on future events and 3D channels, we will advise on whether customers may need to upgrade their current equipment


.

http://www.comcast.com/Corporate/Programming/sports/3Dfaqs.html


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## Mark McM (Oct 24, 2007)

jrm01 said:


> Sat and cable are using a side-by-side frame (for left-eye and right eye). Any device supporting hdmi (1.4 not required) should be able to handle it. However, it does not (currently) operate with Component connections. The downside of this is a reduced resolution. It will handle both 1080i and 720p, but neither at full resolution.


I'm trying to figure out how this works. It seems to me that the way this would work is this (please let me know if I am getting this wrong):

- Comcast is transmitting the image with each frame consisting of two horizontally squished side-by-side images (one for the left eye, the other for the right eye) in the standard 1080i x 1920 or 720p x 1280 format.

- The 3D capable television converts the dual squished side-by-side image into two seperate full width frames, each with half the horizontal resolution (1080i x 960 or 720p x 640).

- The television alternately displays these half-resolution images alternately at the original frame rate for each 'eye' (so for 1080i it would be 30 frames/second right and 30 frames/second left, or a total of 60 alternating frames per second).

- The special 3D glasses synchronize the left and right 'shutters' to the alternating images so each eye only sees the 30 or 60 frame/second intended for that eye, producing the 3D effect.

Have I got that right?

I agree that using only half-resolution frames is a bit of a cheesy way to get a 3D images, but on the other hand, it is a relatively cheap and easy solution for cable companies to be able to offer 3D with essentially no change in their installed equipment or bandwidth usage (just a bit of one-time front end processing or the original source).


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Almost. The 3D TVs all display in 120 hz (except the plasma which are 600 hz) and therefore display at 60 fps per eye.

The transmitted images are not squished to half resolution, since there is some compression involved. I haven't seen an exact figure, but the horizontal reslolution is reduced quite a bit.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

There was some kind of Comcast 3D channel added in the past few days.. at least I noticed a lineup change on my Tivos.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

More and more Comcast sites will see this over the next few months, based on available capacity with each head-end. They will be seperate channels, therefore capacity is an issue, until they get rid of all analog channels (2012?).


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

Since the current cable standard for broadcasting 3D seems to be squished side by side images, I wondered if it would be possible to create 3D on a 2D TV using the Stereogram techniques described in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereogram.

It works! Of course, the image is squished and the eye fatigue could be problematic after a short time.

You won't see eye popping 3D with the current Comcast broadcast of the Master's. Most of the coverage is long shots where most objects are located a great distance from the camera. However, I saw an occasional shot with a golf bag in the foreground or a beauty shot with a tree in the foreground.

The Wiipedia article describes the technique and offers several sample pics to practice with. Basically, you cross your eyes to the point of instead of seeing the two side by side images, you see three images. The image in the middle will be in 3D.

It certainly is cheaper than buying a new TV and works with your current HD Tivo with a standard HDMI cable.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

That's not really a practical solution.

However this system does create the possibility of 3rd party set top boxes that can sit between the TiVo and TV and process the 3D image. The frame rate would have to be lowered to 30Hz for each eye, which might be a problem, but if not the box could simply process the video and output as a 60Hz stream with every other frame being for the alternate eye. They would also need to offer a way to manually adjust the shutter sync of the glasses to account for any processing delay your TV needs to actually display each image but it should work. (this could create a weird effect if you got it out of sync to where the left eye was seeing the picture intended for the right and vice versa )

The only issue would be the frame rate. I'm not sure if a 30Hz picture would cause a flicker or not. Or if because your brain is actually seeing 60Hz picture, just with alternate eyes, if it would compensate for it.

Dan


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## ward_ja (Jan 23, 2009)

jrm01 said:


> There are actually two different standards being used for 3D, one for the BluRay Players and one being used for sat and cable.
> 
> The BluRay is the best since it maintains full resolution by outputting 120 fps, frames alternating left-eye and right eye. This is the format that requires the hdmi 1.4 standard.
> 
> ...


Excuse me if this has already been mentioned but the reduced 1080i side-by-side technique apparently works on TiVo Premiere.

From HDGuru today:

"With the left and right images packed into a single standard 1080i signal (1920 x1080) we were able to store the Masters programs in 3D on our Cablevision leased DVR as well as our new TiVo Premier recorder (equipped with a Cablevision supplied multichannel-M CableCard and Cisco digital tuning adapter)." 
/hdguru.com/2010-masters-in-3d/1476/

Color me eager.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

knuckles said:


> I don't see 3D making it big until you don't have to wear any goofy glasses.


I agree. 3D motion pictures are nothing new. Every couple of decades or so, some motion picture studio or other will produce a 3D picture which is a big hit, and then there will be spate fo 3D pictures for a few months, until people get tired of it. Yes, there are some neat 3D effects, but the values added to a picture by 3D is very limited, and only a small subset of films can really benefit from it. Shoehorning special effects (of any sort) into a film does not make it better, a fact which many film makers fail to grasp.

The average film simply does not need 3D, and having to accommodate it is tiresome for the viewer unless the film really does have something special in the way of 3D. 3D has been a flop at least 3 times in recent history, and I see no reason to think this go-round is going to be any different.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

CowDuo said:


> Pretty soon your regular glasses will support 3D.


How do you figure? Polarized sunglasses are not for ordinary wear. Cross-polarized sunglasses are of no benefit at all. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that many (I think most) people do not ordinarily wear glasses.



CowDuo said:


> Some contacts, too, I suspect.


I surely don't. How, exactly, would one guarantee the lenses to be orthogonally polarized? I also can't imagine anyone walking around with 50% gray contacts.



CowDuo said:


> LCD panels require active shutter glasses (big, expensive).


Yes, but also more effective and productive of a higher quality image.



CowDuo said:


> But plasma, LED and OLED can use polarized light like 3D movies have today.


That may be true, I don't really know, but it still requires every viewer to wear a pair of special (although much less expensive) glasses.


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## qz3fwd (Jul 6, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> I could be wrong but I think this conflicts with the CableCARD standard. I'm pretty sure that the CableCARD standard requires that the video be transmitted in MPEG-2 format. Since the cable companies themselves were forced to start using CableCARDs a couple years back this would be a major transition for them.
> 
> Dan


The cablecard itself only decodes the encrypted stream and provides conditional access, while the host device has the audio/video decoders which ingest the transport stream.
I think so long as the host hardware includes an AVC decoder, then cable companies could offer bitrate starved 3D. The big question is what hardware is in the box. Maybe I'll pop open my DCH3416 and have a looksee.


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## KwikSilvr (Mar 26, 2002)

qz3fwd said:


> The cablecard itself only decodes the encrypted stream and provides conditional access, while the host device has the audio/video decoders which ingest the transport stream.
> I think so long as the host hardware includes an AVC decoder, then cable companies could offer bitrate starved 3D. The big question is what hardware is in the box. Maybe I'll pop open my DCH3416 and have a looksee.


A quick google search shows that the DCX series support MPEG-4, I doubt any of the DCT/DCH boxes do.


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## agrabren (Oct 29, 2007)

Dan203 said:


> The frame rate would have to be lowered to 30Hz for each eye, which might be a problem, but if not the box could simply process the video and output as a 60Hz stream with every other frame being for the alternate eye.


The solution is to output a single frame, with the left eye on the left, and the right eye on the right, squeezed into one frame. So you lose 50% of the horizontal resolution, but maintain full frame rate. The TV is receiving these at full frame rate, but because the TV pushes 120+Hz, it can show the left side stretched, then the right side stretched all before the next frame arrives. So the TV does the 3D decoding of "Frame Compatible" mode, and you see 3D in full refresh rate, but half resolution, which isn't as big a deal for 3D as it is in 2D.

Hope this helps.


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## Peter Redmer (Jan 2, 2008)

Hey everybody, I love seeing the chatter here about 3D  We just started a new site that is all about 3DTV, movies, etc., and I'd love to have you check it out if you have time, let us know what you think, and maybe post there too. Lots of knowledgeable people in this thread!


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## StanSimmons (Jun 10, 2000)

Hi. What is this?


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## net114 (Dec 29, 2000)

Just close one eye, then the other, and then back up and move forward really, really, quick. It will work just like those new 3D tvs!!


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## ronrak (Jan 17, 2011)

I just spoke with TIVO support and was told that the standard TIVO HD box should enable you to to watch 3D televison.

I was considering going to the Comcast 3D DVR and he told me I would not have to.


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## DeWitt (Jun 30, 2004)

3D was the big thing at CES last year... and again this tear, but still not selling. 3D has been the next big thing in Movies for about 30 years and still only a few Mainstream 3D movies.

Manufacturers hoping for a new gee wiz tech to sell hardware at a higher price doesn't mean it is so...


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## ronrak (Jan 17, 2011)

ESPN is testing various programming with 3D. I have a Samsung 67" DLP TV which is 3D ready, and I am not sure that the 3D televised by ESPN will work on my TV. I have a TIVO box which TIVO said will work with the new 3D.

My brother bought a 65" Panasonic 3D ready Plasma TV (about $4,200 +), and Comcast told him he has to get the 3D ready DVR from Comcast for the 3D to work.

TIVO told me that their HD Box will work.

We'll see.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

I'm dying to find out let us know. thanks.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

DeWitt said:


> 3D was the big thing at CES last year... and again this tear, but still not selling. 3D has been the next big thing in Movies for about 30 years and still only a few Mainstream 3D movies.
> 
> Manufacturers hoping for a new gee wiz tech to sell hardware at a higher price doesn't mean it is so...


I'm not shelling out any amount of extra money for a tv that requires me to wear glasses.

BUT - if they do pull off the no glasses 3D that I keep seeing blurbs about. I'd spend extra to add that and likely buy extra channels or upgraded BD's with content.

Not sure I'm mainstream but without the stupid glasses I'd try it.


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## xultar (Jun 15, 2005)

meh. I don't even have a flat screen yet.
Sucks to be me.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

ronrak said:


> TIVO told me that their HD Box will work.
> 
> We'll see.


Ive been using my HD for recording and playing 3D ESPN programs over Comcast for about six months and it works fine on my 65" Mits. Some program split left and right, others top and bottom. A front end box on the Mits converts the Comcast format into "checkerboard" which my Mits requires. I play the TiVo programs through a Denon receiver and then on to the Mits front end box--newer models often have the front end box function built in. Nothing in that path is 1.4 compliant other than the front end Mits box but it doesn't matter due to the way Comcast sends 3D by splitting the screen into two pictures, one for each eye but doing so in a way which doesn't require 1.4.

Whether 3D is worth much is another issue. It gives my wife a headache and I only have two pairs of glasses; both factors impact how often I can use it. There was a Globetrotters game which was fun to look at for a while but in general, I think it's more of a hassle than a benefit. I don't suggest people pay extra for 3D unless they're just techically curious as I was.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

ronrak said:


> TIVO told me that their HD Box will work.
> 
> We'll see.


Ive been using my HD for recording and playing 3D ESPN programs over Comcast for about six months and it works fine on my 65" Mits. Some program split left and right, others top and bottom. A front end box on the Mits converts the Comcast format into "checkerboard" which my Mits requires. I play the TiVo programs through a Denon receiver and then on to the Mits front end box--newer models often have the front end box function built in. Nothing in that path is 1.4 compliant other than the front end Mits box but it doesn't matter due to the way Comcast sends 3D by splitting the screen into two pictures, one for each eye but doing so in a way which doesn't require 1.4.

Whether 3D is worth much is another issue. It gives my wife a headache and I only have two pairs of glasses; both factors impact how often I can use it. There was a Globetrotters game which was fun to look at for a while but in general, I think it's more of a hassle than a benefit. I don't suggest people pay extra for 3D unless they're just technically curious as I was.


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## OneGr8Mick (Feb 22, 2007)

Yeha I have LG 3d tv hooked up to a premier and a S3 and they both can record and play back 3d just fine. Dont know if its 720 or 1080 but it looks better than most HD


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## dneedle1 (Jan 19, 2011)

I was told in chat a few days back that the tivo premiere does NOT support 3D. This is pretty obviously wrong, as some tivo users have happily reported being able to view 3d which came in through their tivo boxes. It is frustrating that 9 months after 3D televisions came out in force that tivo still doesn't have its act together regarding the most basic of questions about it. I would like a formal tivo statement on the question of whether tivo premiere (or the previous tivo hd boxes) support 3d and if so what issues will arise when you try and watch/order 3d programming. I spent north of $1,500 on two premiere boxes and lifetime product licenses, and 2k more on a fancy new tv, and I'm FURIOUS that noone knows how to allow me to watch 3d programming. (The cable company, Time Warner, isn't really interested-- they just want me to buy their DVR!)


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

dneedle1 said:


> I'm FURIOUS that noone knows how to allow me to watch 3d programming. (The cable company, Time Warner, isn't really interested-- they just want me to buy their DVR!)


Are you saying that when you tune to a Time Warner 3D channel and activate the TV's 3D mode, you aren't getting 3D?

My experiments with a Tivo S3 and a Comcast 3D channel and a 2D/3D Samsung TV suggest that 3D passes through to the TV just fine. Because my Samsung TV does not support the current 3D standard, I would need an adapter to convert the current 3D to the older "checkerboard" format.

What does the TV owner's manual say?


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## Mark McM (Oct 24, 2007)

dneedle1 said:


> I would like a formal tivo statement on the question of whether tivo premiere (or the previous tivo hd boxes) support 3d and if so what issues will arise when you try and watch/order 3d programming. I spent north of $1,500 on two premiere boxes and lifetime product licenses, and 2k more on a fancy new tv, and I'm FURIOUS that noone knows how to allow me to watch 3d programming. (The cable company, Time Warner, isn't really interested-- they just want me to buy their DVR!)


I don't know if Tivo can make a formal statement about 3D, because unlike with CableCards, there is no unified standard for 3D broadcasts/transmissions. It is likely that the independent cable providers aren't willing to share their specific implementations with Tivo either.

But for what its worth, the largest cable television provider in the US (Comcast) has made an official statement regarding Tivo compatibility with 3D broadcasts:

http://customer.comcast.com/Pages/FAQViewer.aspx?seoid=new-box-needed-for-3d-viewing

"Do I need a new cable box to view 3D programming?
The technology used to film and transmit shows and events in high-definition (HD) 3D requires that only specific digital video set-top boxes are able to receive and broadcast the 3D programming. Comcast offers several of these qualifying set-top boxes to our customers. If the HD set-top box in your home is included in this list of set-top boxes, you do not need to update your device.

Note: TiVo series 3 and Premiere HD/DVRs currently support the HD 3D format. For that reason, if you have a TiVo receiver, you will be able to access to 3D programming. You must contact Comcast to have 3D access enabled on your account. "


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Mark McM said:


> I don't know if Tivo can make a formal statement about 3D, because unlike with CableCards, there is no unified standard for 3D broadcasts/transmissions. It is likely that the independent cable providers aren't willing to share their specific implementations with Tivo either.


Considering all 3D broadcasts currently use frame compatible techniques, meaning they're no different than any other standard HD broadcast using 8VSB/ATSC or QAM modulation, simply that the frame content is divided into two parts, one for each eye, either top/bottom or left/right, it's probably not that hard for TiVo to provide some information about support, since the TiVo is little but a pass-through device for this content.


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## retired_guy (Aug 27, 2004)

As mentioned above, there's no specific support in TiVos for 3D broadcasts and none required for cable companies transmitting 3D in side by side or top/bottom format since those programs look to the TiVo like standard 720p or 1080i broadcasts. My Deno receiver doesn't have or require 3D support either. But, at least in my case, I have to set up my Mits TV in either 2D or 3D mode---it doesn't have any logic to automatically switch modes based upon the input stream. Hence, to play a 3D program recorded on a TiVo (Premiere,HD or S3), I set the TV to 3D mode along with my front end box which converts side/side or top/bottom to checkerboard format. This is fine for displaying the program but if I ever hit a TiVo button to look at TiVo none program output which is in 2D mode, the TV still thinks it's getting 3D and generates a messed up picture--top/bottom isn't too bad since at least TiVo's closed captions then do display in a readable form for one eye--left/right really screws up captions. If I had a programmable remote, I could set it up to easily switch 2D/3D modes, but using the TV's remote along wirh the front end box's remote for mode switching is irritating due to the large numer of buttom pushes it takes.


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## dneedle1 (Jan 19, 2011)

Oliver asked above, "Are you saying that when you tune to a Time Warner 3D channel and activate the TV's 3D mode, you aren't getting 3D?"

Not exactly. I don't get anything at all. Snow/static. Nothing. I have time warner, and do not have a cable box at all, my Premier replaced it. I do, however, have the tuning adapter.

Its not a question of the tv. I bought the Samsung 8000 in December, and have happily watched a few 3D movies. The question is whether/how I can get programming broadcast in 3d (such as ESPN 3D) to actually show up without renting another cable box, which I don't really want to add to my setup. Incredibly, no one seems to really know. A few people in the community say it can be done, but Time Warner has no clue and tivo doesn't seem interesting in helping people in my position out. I realize that 3d tvs haven't exploded in popularity, but they aren't really a tiny niche either. There is very little programming atm, so its not at all a big deal right now, but still very annoying.


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## Joe3 (Dec 12, 2006)

dneedle1 said:


> ...I realize that 3d tvs haven't exploded in popularity, but they aren't really a tiny niche either. There is very little programming atm, so its not at all a big deal right now, but still very annoying.


It getting bigger. Obviously no one would recommend TiVo at this point, but I have had family and friends do their own research and they all came out for 3D TV's with internet access built in using the now more reliable but featureless cable DVR.

I lost my status as a tech guy while my Tivo gently reboots.


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## a68oliver (Jul 15, 2000)

dneedle1 said:


> Not exactly. I don't get anything at all. Snow/static. Nothing. I have time warner, and do not have a cable box at all, my Premier replaced it. I do, however, have the tuning adapter.


On my Comcast system, you have to call Comcast and ask them to activate the 3D channel (no charge). If you see a completely blank screen, I wonder if the 3D channel is activated on your Time Warner system or included in your subscription package.

Have you tuned to the channel and looked at the Tivo Diagnositcs pages to see if the channel is authorized?

There is a Tivo FAQ about troubleshooting missing channels. This almost sounds to me like a missing channel problem. You should at least see side by side pictures, even on a standard (non 3D) TV.


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## dneedle1 (Jan 19, 2011)

I tried, and I am beaten. ESPN 3d and on demand channels are simply NOT AVAILABLE to Time Warner Cable Cable card customers. That's what I was just told by someone at Time Warner who sure seems to know what he's talking about. So that's that. I bought a fancy schmancy 3DTV and the latest and greatest tivo box, and I can't access the 3 paltry 3D channels that Time Warner currently offers. I realize this is likely Time Warner's fault, given that customers of other cable providers can access them.


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## hutchca (Oct 23, 2000)

I just called Comcast and had them enable the 3D channels. I'm using a Series 3 Tivo with a Samsung C8000 3D TV.

Comcast has only two 3D channels right now. ESPN3D uses the over/under split image and the Comcast 3D channel uses a side by side split.

My TV supports these methods but you have to manually enable 3D and manually select which method to use to split the image.

Unfortunately either method renders the TiVo UI unusable. If any part of the UI is visible it hurts my eyes because each eye gets a completely dissimilar image.


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## greekgodess (Jun 14, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> I'm actually kind of curious about this new 3D technology. I can't really watch 3D movies at the theater, something about them hurts my eyes and gives me a headache. The few times I've tried I ended up watching most of the movie with one eye shut. However, from what I've read, the active shutter glasses they use with these new TVs is suppose to work a lot better then the polarized glasses they use at the theater. I'd really like to try out one of these new setups and see if it causes the same eye strain problem I have at the theater.
> 
> As for TiVo supporting it... Maybe some day, but I doubt it'll be in 3-4 years. I doubt there will even be anything available in 3D besides BluRay in 3-4 years. The OTA and cable broadcast standards don't support [email protected], so the only people who might be able to broadcast 3D are going to be the DSS providers anyway. And a 3D movie is going to be pretty large (30-40GB) so it's going to be a while before we see them available from download services like Amazon or Netflix.
> 
> Dan


Bite your tongue  VUDU has already released 3D movies for instant watch (on certain devices for now, such as PS3). Netflix of course has no plans to do so. Also, Fios has it in the works for their boxes (you will be required to upgrade your current box for a fee). They are in beta testing in New York.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

I swore Tivo already was able to send at least SBS 3D from Comcast.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

greekgodess said:


> Bite your tongue  VUDU has already released 3D movies for instant watch (on certain devices for now, such as PS3). Netflix of course has no plans to do so. Also, Fios has it in the works for their boxes (you will be required to upgrade your current box for a fee). They are in beta testing in New York.


I was wrong about cable/OTA as well. Apparently they managed to fake 3D by simply splitting the resolution. They take a 1920x1080 frame and squeeze two frames, one for each eye, side by side. Then the TV splits it, stretches it and displays it in time with the stutter glasses to create the 3D effect. It's only 30fps, and has half the vertical resolution of a real HD broadcast, but apparently it's good enough.



b_scott said:


> I swore Tivo already was able to send at least SBS 3D from Comcast.


They can if the broadcast uses the technique mentioned above because technically the signal is no different then a normal TV broadcast and the TV itself does all the processing to make the effect work.

Dan


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> I'm actually kind of curious about this new 3D technology. I can't really watch 3D movies at the theater, something about them hurts my eyes and gives me a headache. The few times I've tried I ended up watching most of the movie with one eye shut.


I don't get a headache, but I HATE 3D movies because I just can't see a clear picture. They always, always, always look fuzzy. I guess I just recently realized they don't look that way to everyone. 

edit to add: I played around with a Nintendo 3DS in the store last week and it actually HURT me to use it. No 3D for me!!!


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