# series 3 "generally available in retail stores soon"



## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

sorry if theis is a repeat but i didn't see it anywhere in the HD or coffehouse forums.

Saw this originally at dbs forums

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060719-7304.html

aparrently Tivo is mailing letters to the cable companies giving them a heads up series 3 is on the way.

also they met with the fcc to see if they could ensure switched video wouldn't kill off cablecard devices like the series3. (there's even what appears to be forum PM from chris in austin to tivo pony on the issue. )

FCC filing is here:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518400258

the filing has the letter to the cabel co's saying the series 3 is in beta accros the country currently and is going to be "generally available in retail stores soon"


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> sorry if theis is a repeat but i didn't see it anywhere in the HD or coffehouse forums.


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=308083

BTW, posted before arstechnica, or engadget, or any of the other blogs ...


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

sorry for the extra post...


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> sorry for the extra post...


Hey ... it's good stuff. And ... you actually posted the link to the FCC filing (which is what people should read, instead of reading others' interpretations of it) so ... :up:


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## pdawg17 (Mar 1, 2003)

If it is $600 I'll probably be waiting awhile if I go that route at all...cable by itself costs ~$30 more/month than D* in my area...


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## HDTivoUser (May 2, 2005)

pdawg17 said:


> ...cable by itself costs ~$30 more/month than D* in my area...


In addition to that.....I don't see cable offering up NFL Sunday Ticket anytime soon. Being a KC fan in VA....that's pretty important to me.


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## DTSDude (May 24, 2006)

HDTivoUser said:


> In addition to that.....I don't see cable offering up NFL Sunday Ticket anytime soon. Being a KC fan in VA....that's pretty important to me.


That would be because a certain satalite provider has an exclusive contract for Sunday Ticket. Someday it may be available via cable, but no time soon.


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

I love TIVO and I'm a potential S3 buyer but a have a lot of concerns about cablecards. I replaced my CC twice and tried them on a Panasonic plasma and a Mitsubishi 73927. From time to time I get picture and sound artifacts and sometimes error msgs (61-53). I had the tech guys here already 4 times and they all say the same" cablecard is not as reliable as the cableboxes". With my Mitsu I can also record on it's internal HDD but the recordings show sound dropouts and with 4 HD channels I have an unwatchable picture with horizontal tiles and artifacts. Recordings from the OTA antenna produce a perfect picture. We can always blame the TV but the problems happen with 2 different sets and 2 different brands.

Aren't you guys concerned about this cablecard technology? Would the S3 come up with a better CC reader?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

$600 was towards the low-end of the range I've heard about. I was figuring it would end up closer to $800-$900. Remember it is _supposed_ to be "very" expensive -- a true "high-end" unit, unlike the more affordable Series 2 TiVos.


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

At $600 I'm in for 2 baby!


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

My brother, who is a tech for TW said that if you have a cable card, you cant order any PPVs or anything else that requires 2 way communication because the cable card is only 1 way.

That kind of sucks but who knows, he could be wrong.


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

KungFuCow said:


> My brother, who is a tech for TW said that if you have a cable card, you cant order any PPVs or anything else that requires 2 way communication because the cable card is only 1 way.
> 
> That kind of sucks but who knows, he could be wrong.


Unfortunately, he is right. I think that a version 2 CC will be 2-way.


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## brewdawg (Mar 15, 2006)

I was just transferring my Comcast service and they told me that 2 cable cards were going to cost me about $15 for both. I am hoping that the switch to Time Warner will make it cheaper.


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## Frazld (Feb 1, 2003)

Time Warners info on CableCards w/cost at $2/month. $15!!!! I can't wait for TW to take over in the Dallas area.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/sanantonio/products/cablecard.html


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Is there any way to get a major home entertainment publisher to take up the SDV issue with the S3 publically and hopefully help to bring enough public attention to the issue to force the cable companies, TIVO and the FCC to come to a compromise well-suited to the consumer?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

slimoli said:


> ... they all say the same" cablecard is not as reliable as the cableboxes". ...


translated as "we dont want you to use these damn things becasue we can't charge more then $2 for them to keep the FCC off our butts but we can get you for $5 to $15 bucks for a set top box. Besides that you wont order our PPV with it and might sign up for netflix. And most importanlyt you wont subscribe to our interactive services like virtual dating"

There's nothign inherently wrong with cablecard except cable companies tend to suck.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

brewdawg said:


> I was just transferring my Comcast service and they told me that 2 cable cards were going to cost me about $15 for both. I am hoping that the switch to Time Warner will make it cheaper.


_edit:_ I believe:

that's a flat out lie.

Becasue:

The FCC basically told the cable companies to keep them below $2 each or face regulation.

I believe in many markets they are FREE (I thought it was actually comcast doing that in most markets but couuld be wrong)

If you want the facts log into their website and look at the rate sheet for your area- I'm fairly sure they are less than $7.50 a month.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> _edit:_ I believe:
> 
> that's a flat out lie.
> 
> ...


the lie was annoying me soo much i had to lolok it up myself.

plugged in my sister's address in monmouth county NJ.

http://www.comcast.com/Support/Corp1/FAQ/FaqDetail_2651.html

if the link doesn't work:


> What is the cost for CableCARD service?
> 
> There is no additional charge for CableCARD service above what you currently pay for Digital Cable service (NOTE: additional outlet charges for programming may apply).


in other words they are free to comcast (at least in monmouth county NJ- but i believe comcast told the FCC in the last report on cablecard deployment that they were free everywhere.


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> translated as "we dont want you to use these damn things becasue we can't charge more then $2 for them to keep the FCC off our butts but we can get you for $5 to $15 bucks for a set top box. Besides that you wont order our PPV with it and might sign up for netflix. And most importanlyt you wont subscribe to our interactive services like virtual dating"
> 
> There's nothign inherently wrong with cablecard except cable companies tend to suck.


I had not problems getting the CC . My concern is the fact that ,after a month trying with 2 different TVs and after 4 tech visits and 2 cards replaced, the damn thing doesn't work without glitches that are not present with the cableboxes (Explorer 8300). Since the CC are the heart of the S3, I hope that TIVO has already figured all the potential problems. The CC I'm using is the standard SA . Based on hundreds of postsat Avsforum complaining about CC problems I don't think I'm the only one worried.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

slimoli said:


> I had not problems getting the CC . My concern is the fact that ,after a month trying with 2 different TVs and after 4 tech visits and 2 cards replaced, the damn thing doesn't work without glitches that are not present with the cableboxes (Explorer 8300). Since the CC are the heart of the S3, I hope that TIVO has already figured all the potential problems. The CC I'm using is the standard SA . Based on hundreds of postsat Avsforum complaining about CC problems I don't think I'm the only one worried.


honestly I dont know, but the impression i get from reading the threads at avs is the cable companies are incompetent and dont know how to use them that there is nothing wrong with the technology. I only honestly know one person with cablecard but the mom and pop cable company here dealt with it rather simply. My friend called for an install they asked TV model number. They told him to call panasonic that the plasma he bought needed updated firmware for their brand CC. Panasonic overnighted him the sd card with the firmware and the cable guy came out the next day and heloed him load the firmware update for his TV and slapped in the CC. It worked fine and has for months. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that's more of the norm if you have a good company.

Good luck


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

KungFuCow said:


> My brother, who is a tech for TW said that if you have a cable card, you cant order any PPVs or anything else that requires 2 way communication because the cable card is only 1 way.
> 
> That kind of sucks but who knows, he could be wrong.


So what. I've never ordered a PPV in my life. There is a large group of people who would be quite happy with 1 way communication.

Also, if the cable companies really want PPV business they can do what DirecTV does and let people order PPV over the internet. That way the show appears in ALL receivers not just one.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

BillyT2002 said:


> Is there any way to get a major home entertainment publisher to take up the SDV issue with the S3 publically and hopefully help to bring enough public attention to the issue to force the cable companies, TIVO and the FCC to come to a compromise well-suited to the consumer?


I doubt it. It was TiVo's decision to go forward with version 1 cablecard support, so the burden is on TiVo to work out the issues that pop-up because of that.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> honestly I dont know, but the impression i get from reading the threads at avs is the cable companies are incompetent and dont know how to use them that there is nothing wrong with the technology...


The only thing wrong with the technology is that the cable co.s are not motivated to be on board with CC or CC technology, when there is a lot more money on the table to be made with STBs. If I were a cable CEO or even a system manager and I got a shipment of 10,000 faulty CCs, I would feel like I hit the lottery. Give them to folks who request them, play dumb when they don't work, blame it on the technology, then offer the STB as the alternative, and recycle them to the next sucker.


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## etsolow (Feb 8, 2001)

I just got my Charter CableCARD installed. The tech spent 20 minutes explaining how much they all hated doing CableCARD installs and how some techs would pay other techs to take 'em off their hands. He said they were hard to set up, unreliable, and generally big pieces of junk. He explained to me that it was because they were trying to take all the functions of a big cable box and put it into a little card, kinda like trying to make a cell phone as powerful as a full-sized PC was the analogy he used. I just smiled. 

Guess I'll find out how reliable they are if/when they ever get mine activated! (After that tirade, he was unable to activate mine, because the system they use to "hit" it with its programming was down.)

E


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

etsolow said:


> I just got my Charter CableCARD installed. The tech spent 20 minutes explaining how much they all hated doing CableCARD installs and how some techs would pay other techs to take 'em off their hands. He said they were hard to set up, unreliable, and generally big pieces of junk. He explained to me that it was because they were trying to take all the functions of a big cable box and put it into a little card, kinda like trying to make a cell phone as powerful as a full-sized PC was the analogy he used. I just smiled.
> 
> Guess I'll find out how reliable they are if/when they ever get mine activated! (After that tirade, he was unable to activate mine, because the system they use to "hit" it with its programming was down.)
> 
> E


 Sounds familiar. When they installed mine for the first time the cableguy had 4 cablecards "just in case".


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

etsolow said:


> I just got my Charter CableCARD installed. The tech spent 20 minutes explaining how much they all hated doing CableCARD installs and how some techs would pay other techs to take 'em off their hands. He said they were hard to set up, unreliable, and generally big pieces of junk. He explained to me that it was because they were trying to take all the functions of a big cable box and put it into a little card, kinda like trying to make a cell phone as powerful as a full-sized PC was the analogy he used. I just smiled.


I don't think that's it at all. People forget that it's a combination of factors - there is firmware for card that the card manufacturer is responsible for, programming (or more accurately, mapping) from the Cable company and interface with the device. The Tivo S3 will undoubtly be responsible for more cable card installations that any CE device to date. We will very quickly learn which CableCard manufacturers have good implementations and which are junk and which Cable companies have a clue when it comes to CableCard and which don't.

Tivo will clearly be on top of this, as evidenced by the education program they have undertaken with the cable companies, but Tivo supporters are clearly going to have to help the education effort as well - teach the installers and the techs how to do the installations (yes, I'm still planning on a self-install) and help folks out here at TCF, avsforum and other places.

We will have to assume that the cable companies will generally be clueless, at least initially, and not care if it works or not. As you and others have pointed out, they have no real incentive for the cards to be successfull (and clearly profit more if folks just give up if there are problems, so those of us that want to see the S3 succeed have to step up over the next few months.


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> So what. I've never ordered a PPV in my life. There is a large group of people who would be quite happy with 1 way communication.
> 
> Also, if the cable companies really want PPV business they can do what DirecTV does and let people order PPV over the internet. That way the show appears in ALL receivers not just one.


I order PPVs regularly tho so the CC issue would probably be a deal breaker for me.

To each his own.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

KungFuCow said:


> I order PPVs regularly tho so the CC issue would probably be a deal breaker for me.


On most cable systems you can order PPV via web or phone and watch it on a CableCard device. You can't _order_ PPV from a one-way CableCard device ... but you can watch PPV (unless, of course, the cable operator starts using SDV for PPV).


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> On most cable systems you can order PPV via web or phone and watch it on a CableCard device. You can't _order_ PPV from a one-way CableCard device ... but you can watch PPV (unless, of course, the cable operator starts using SDV for PPV).


What is SDV?


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## cforrest (Jan 19, 2003)

SDV= Switched Digital Video aka Switched Video, that some cable companies are using or just testing out.


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

cforrest said:


> SDV= Switched Digital Video aka Switched Video, that some cable companies are using or just testing out.


Thanks, but what does that mean?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

It means that the cable company won't be sending all the channels down the wire at all times, but rather will treat almost every channel as an "on demand" type channel, sending it down a dynamically allocated channel for that customer. So instead of needing one channel's worth of bandwidth for each channel of programming, SDV just requires one channel's worth of bandwidth for each subscriber -- even less if you count on the majority of subscribers deciding to watch the same channels most often.


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

bicker said:


> It means that the cable company won't be sending all the channels down the wire at all times, but rather will treat almost every channel as an "on demand" type channel, sending it down a dynamically allocated channel for that customer. So instead of needing one channel's worth of bandwidth for each channel of programming, SDV just requires one channel's worth of bandwidth for each subscriber -- even less if you count on the majority of subscribers deciding to watch the same channels most often.


Thanks for the explanation.


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## chris_h (Dec 17, 2003)

And I think (mostly conjecture on my part) that SDV requires two-way commnuication, so a box can tell the server which channel to send down the wire. As I understand it, the CC 1 spec only supports one way communication, and CC 2 spec supports two way communication. The S3 likely only supports CC1, not CC2.

Someone feel free to correct me if my understanding or conjecture is off.


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## slimoli (Jul 30, 2005)

chris_h said:


> And I think (mostly conjecture on my part) that SDV requires two-way commnuication, so a box can tell the server which channel to send down the wire. As I understand it, the CC 1 spec only supports one way communication, and CC 2 spec supports two way communication. The S3 likely only supports CC1, not CC2.
> 
> Someone feel free to correct me if my understanding or conjecture is off.


You are absolutely right. The fact that the S3 depends on cablecards concerns me a lot.


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## Bai Shen (Dec 17, 2004)

What's so hard about the CC install? It's jus' like a PCMCIA card. You stick it in the slot an' have 'em activate it. I don't see what the big deal is.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

Does it kill anyone else that there is no other news then this "soon" that the Series 3 will be available. I would really like Tivo to make an official announcement SOON so we know when it will come out!!


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

amjustice said:


> Does it kill anyone else that there is no other news then this "soon" that the Series 3 will be available. I would really like Tivo to make an official announcement SOON so we know when it will come out!!


There was MUCH more than the "soon" part...did you read the posted document? It includes the fact that the unit is "currently being tested by a small number of consumers in cable markets around the country." I'd say that qualifies as a bit more than just "soon".


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## tunnelengineer (Jul 21, 2006)

I agree with amjustice. They should be able to put a better time table on this. At least say something like "Around Labor Day" or "in time for Thanksgiving Turkey". 

The word "Soon" is very relative. I am still waiting to get my HD version of ABC and Fox from Time Warner cable. They have said a deal will be worked out "soon" for the past 2 years.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

tunnelengineer said:


> I agree with amjustice. They should be able to put a better time table on this. At least say something like "Around Labor Day" or "in time for Thanksgiving Turkey".
> 
> The word "Soon" is very relative. I am still waiting to get my HD version of ABC and Fox from Time Warner cable. They have said a deal will be worked out "soon" for the past 2 years.


But ... what if they announce Labor Day, then their manufacturer's factory blows-up in August? Or TiVo's beta testers discover a major unexpected bug in August? These would prevent TiVo from rolling-out as "announced" and could potentially cost TiVo some money (based on not meeting financial expectations, etc.) There's a downside to announcing a date and not being able to keep it.

Not to mention there'd be tons of new threads here about how TiVo missed the S3 delivery date and "can't deliver as promised." (Like we don't have enough now!)


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

tunnelengineer said:


> I agree with amjustice. They should be able to put a better time table on this.


I disagree: They "should" put out the information that best serves their objectives, even if that means being vague.


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

bicker said:


> It means that the cable company won't be sending all the channels down the wire at all times, but rather will treat almost every channel as an "on demand" type channel, sending it down a dynamically allocated channel for that customer. So instead of needing one channel's worth of bandwidth for each channel of programming, SDV just requires one channel's worth of bandwidth for each subscriber -- even less if you count on the majority of subscribers deciding to watch the same channels most often.


And this is what IPTV will also be bringing, very soon. (Though as far as I know, in the US the only major provider getting ready to offer IPTV is AT&T.)


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

bicker said:


> I disagree: They "should" put out the information that best serves their objectives, even if that means being vague.


Agreed...they're in business to make money....not placate people (although, admittedly, they're not making a lot of $$ ).


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## bearcat2000 (Aug 13, 2005)

I called earlier today and the sales rep said it would be available in October. Not really sure it that holds any water at all, but we'll see as that's only 3 months away.


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## amjustice (Mar 9, 2006)

Tivo is trying to be too much like Apple, didnt they announce the Dual Tuner Series 2 the day it came out? At least with Apple you know that on any particular day you might get some new products, with Tivo I feel like its going to be awhile if we havent heard a date yet.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> On most cable systems you can order PPV via web or phone and watch it on a CableCard device. You can't _order_ PPV from a one-way CableCard device ... but you can watch PPV (unless, of course, the cable operator starts using SDV for PPV).


DT_DC

you are clearly the king of cablecard knowledge- can you explain SDV in more detail.

I just assumed it dynamically allocated certain streams to random channels. So why couldn't you order on the web for anything SDV and the system would say "OK your movie is ordered please tune to channel X to see it" where channel x is whatever channel they assign to you for SDV at that moment?

Is it not that simple?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bicker said:


> I doubt it. It was TiVo's decision to go forward with version 1 cablecard support, so the burden is on TiVo to work out the issues that pop-up because of that.


I agree-

But I think SDV sort of circumvents anything cablecard and thats the problem.

Im not sure cablecard 2 would work with SDV either?


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

Here an article that explains it all from USA Today :

And the link:http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/services/2006-06-04-cable-hdtv_x.htm

NEW YORK  After years of dithering and infighting by government officials and corporate executives, the high-definition TV revolution is finally here. 
This year, for the first time, consumers will buy more HDTV sets than traditional ones. Morgan Stanley estimates that nearly 26% of households will enjoy HD's gee-whiz video and theater sound by year's end and that 67.6% will in 2010, thanks to prices falling from today's $1,000 and up.

That's good news for the TV industry, right?

Maybe not for cable operators.

Their wires are so packed with TV channels and new services  including video on demand (VOD), broadband Internet and phone  that many are scrambling to find bandwidth for the coming wave of HD channels. "Cable operators need massive capacity for HDTV, and have to move quickly," says Sanford C. Bernstein's Craig Moffett. "HDTV is hot."

Executives say they're on the case. But their favorite plans to fix their bandwidth problem will, at least in the short-term, create hassles for millions of subscribers  especially those who hate the idea of hooking their TVs to a set-top box.

For example, one solution could strip dozens of channels from customers with cable-ready TVs  forcing them to pay an extra $10 or more a month for a digital box and service just to keep the channels they get now without them.

The other leading remedy would hobble new HDTV sets designed with a slot to work with a slick, credit card-size CableCard instead of a box.

In addition to being an inconvenience and expense, either change would represent yet another setback for the decade-old federal effort to force the industry to free consumers from cable boxes.

But operators seem willing to take the heat. They fear that if they fail to heed warnings such as Moffett's, they'll lose many of their 65 million subscribers who are hot for HD to satellite and phone company rivals that already are able to offer lots of HDTV channels and plan many more.

"We think it is a good differentiator for us," says Carl Vogel, vice chairman of satellite provider EchoStar and former CEO of cable operator Charter Communications. "Our vision is to be the best video provider that we can be."

To build on that advantage, DirecTV and EchoStar are preparing to launch additional satellites and use other means to offer at least 150 national HD channels, as well as each market's local stations.

"Satellite's going to be constrained not so much by how many channels they can carry than by how many they can get," says Bob Scherman, Satellite Business News editor and publisher.

Meanwhile, phone company Verizon is building state-of-the-art, fiber-optic networks that it says can handle 210 HD services plus all the conventional TV channels.

No analog baggage

These newer rivals for cable have always been digital, transmitting all their programming in bits and bytes, so neither of them has to worry about serving "satellite-ready" or "phone-ready" TV sets. Their customers are used to needing a box or receiver to convert the signals into the images of, say, Katie Couric or Taylor Hicks on the analog sets that still dominate living rooms, bedrooms and kitchens.

More important, being all-digital makes more efficient use of their capacity: About 10 standard digital channels fit into the bandwidth required for one analog channel.

By contrast, cable's roots are analog, and they typically still offer analog transmissions of 70 or more of the most popular channels that the majority of their customers watch on "cable-ready" analog TV sets  without a box. Providing those analog signals eats up about two-thirds of a typical system's bandwidth, even after the industry spent $100 billion over a decade to string fatter lines to handle interactive services.

Thanks to that analog legacy, most cable operators have room to add only about a dozen HD channels  roughly half what DirecTV and EchoStar already offer.

It's a competitive gap likely to widen. Satellite companies "will likely have a two-to-three-year lead over cable during which they'll be able to offer a materially higher number of HD channels," Morgan Stanley's Richard Bilotti writes.

The imbalance hasn't hurt cable so far. Their local operations can more easily tailor lineups to offer HD feeds from the markets' popular ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC and PBS stations than coast-to-coast satellite broadcasters. And there isn't much national HD programming yet.

About 30 of the 500-plus national pay-TV networks offer HD, a short list dominated by premium sports, movie and porn channels.

Some cable operators, trying to come up with a solution to their bandwidth pinch, have asked other networks "to please wait on launching new (HD channels) until 2007," Pali Capital's Richard Greenfield writes.

Up to now  for their own reasons  programmers have been content to leave HD on "pause."

"Going HD is an expensive proposition for content companies, and a lot of programmers are waiting for enough viewers to jump in" by buying HD sets, says Bill Goodwyn, president of affiliate sales and marketing at Discovery Networks U.S.

But that wait seems to be over. In the past few months, HGTV, the Food Network, National Geographic and A&E unveiled HD plans.

"We're seeing a tipping point," says Gwynne McConkey, Lifetime's senior vice president for operations, information systems and technology. "We expect to have an (HD) announcement this year."

Whether smaller channels get in on the HD party is in doubt, however. They fear that cable's bandwidth problem could cause giants such as Comcast and Time Warner to save their precious few HD slots for networks they own.

"The haves will get richer, and the have-nots will get poorer," says Tracy Dolgin, CEO of the New York Yankees' Yes Network, which is distributed in HD. "The Sewing Channel isn't going to get an HD channel. It just isn't going to happen."

Cable's bandwidth Band-Aids

Cable operators looking to accommodate more HD channels have come up with two basic strategies:

Drop analog channels (and the idea of "cable-ready" TVs). "The first thing we'll do when we start putting on more HDTV pictures is to take one analog channel off the system," says Comcast Chief Technology Officer David Fellows. "In its place, we can put three HDTV pictures."

The beauty of that solution: It's simple and cheap, and CableCards would still work.

It's also risky.

By cutting analog service, operators force customers to buy digital service and a box to keep watching favorite shows they used to get on their cable-ready TVs. Because the customer now has to get a box anyway, they might consider switching to satellite or phone video that has more HD channels.

To try to avert that, "We may choose to ... keep 20 or 30 channels in analog," Fellows says. "That way, the TV set in your kitchen will still be cable-ready."

Keep analog service (and make current CableCards obsolete). Time Warner, Cox and other operators prefer a solution, called "switched digital," that lets them offer more HD without hassling analog customers. It would, though, create problems for folks with digital TVs and other devices designed to work with CableCards, not a box.

Operators now send all channels through their fat fiber-optic trunk lines and also through the slimmer coaxial cables running through neighborhoods and into homes. The cable-ready TV tuner, cable box or CableCard blocks everything except the channel selected.

With switched digital, operators would send all channels through their trunk lines. The system then would pass the analog channels through the neighborhood lines but send a digital channel only when a viewer selects it on a set-top box.

Instead of also pushing 300 or so digital channels through the coaxial lines, they would be handling only the 60 or so a neighborhood is likely to be watching at any one time. That would free capacity for HD transmissions.

"We're effectively making digital broadcasting the same as video on demand," says Seth Kenvin of BigBand Networks, a major service provider. "The subscriber doesn't know what's going on."

Time Warner has deployed switched digital in three cities and plans to bring it to all its systems. Cox and Cablevision also are drawing up deployment plans.

"If you're not switching, you're going to run out of spectrum," says Time Warner Cable Chief Technology Officer Mike LaJoie. "Once I have the switching fabric in place, I can add as many channels as I want and never overload."

The system also has appeal for investors who fear the cost of solutions requiring set-top boxes on every analog TV, which operators might have to offer free.

"Going all-digital would cost $100 per subscriber. Switched digital would cost about $5 per subscriber," Moffett says.

Makes CableCards obsolete

The good news for operators and investors is bad news for subscribers who bought TVs and digital video recorders that unscramble digital signals with a CableCard  effectively, a set-top box on a card.

The Federal Communications Commission prodded the cable industry to support the cards as a first step to fulfill a 1996 congressional mandate to free consumers from having to get a box to watch or record TV shows. But the cards now in use in about 400 products introduced since July 2004  including lots of HDTVs  only receive signals and can't send a message to a switched system telling it to pass through a particular channel to the neighborhood.

CableCard users in San Diego found out what that meant last year when Time Warner deployed a switched-digital system. They lost East Coast versions of several premium channels. A company letter also warned owners of HD sets that they might not be able to get HD channels being added. As compensation, the company said it would give them a digital set-top box free for a year.

That's a step backward, TV and DVR makers say.

"We see switched digital as another way cable is trying to undermine the CableCard and discourage its use," says Consumer Electronics Association spokesman Jeffrey Joseph. Although more than a million CableCard-ready digital TVs have been sold, he says, operators' half-hearted support has meant that only about 150,000 CableCards are in use.

An FCC spokeswoman declined to comment on the matter, citing proceedings in progress on new CableCard standards that would support interactive TV and switched digital.


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## 72morgan (Jan 24, 2005)

After reading this article especially this quote

"Thanks to that analog legacy, most cable operators have room to add only about a dozen HD channels  roughly half what DirecTV and EchoStar already offer. "

I now know why I only have 12 HD channels.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Very good article, but it's funny that the author forgot to mention that the same risk from dropping analog channels also applies to the introduction of SDV. If you drop all analog channels, the customer needs a box on every TV. If you go SDV, the customer needs a box on every TV or else those TVs will only see the 30 channels left unswitched. I think most consumers will want to get all of the channels they pay for, so they would likely want a box on every TV, in which case they may as well look for alternatives to cable.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

drew2k said:


> Very good article, but it's funny that the author forgot to mention that the same risk from dropping analog channels also applies to the introduction of SDV. If you drop all analog channels, the customer needs a box on every TV. If you go SDV, the customer needs a box on every TV or else those TVs will only see the 30 channels left unswitched. I think most consumers will want to get all of the channels they pay for, so they would likely want a box on every TV, in which case they may as well look for alternatives to cable.


very good point.

But I'm still not 100% clear- would 2 way cablecards avert that? (in other words would 2-way cablecards be able to ask for and decode switched video?)

And if so- what's a realistic timeframe for tivo to come out with a revised series 3 with 2-way support?


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## andydumi (Jun 26, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> in other words they are free to comcast (at least in monmouth county NJ- but i believe comcast told the FCC in the last report on cablecard deployment that they were free everywhere.


The cable card itself will be free, but the "Additional outlet charges" are 14.95 per outlet. In other words, your first one will be free but the second one will be charged as an additional outlet.
After all, you are technically receiving two channels at the same time, when recording one and watching another.

I hope thats not the case, but I can see the cable companies doing it.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

andydumi said:


> The cable card itself will be free, but the "Additional outlet charges" are 14.95 per outlet. In other words, your first one will be free but the second one will be charged as an additional outlet.
> After all, you are technically receiving two channels at the same time, when recording one and watching another.
> 
> I hope thats not the case, but I can see the cable companies doing it.


I thought with the last round of deregulation that 'addtional outlet fees' were made illegal?

Can someone step in and clear up my confusion on that issue?


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## andydumi (Jun 26, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> very good point.
> 
> But I'm still not 100% clear- would 2 way cablecards avert that? (in other words would 2-way cablecards be able to ask for and decode switched video?)
> 
> And if so- what's a realistic timeframe for tivo to come out with a revised series 3 with 2-way support?


It seems that CC2 will be able to do bi-directional communications, so it will effectively work with SDV and Video on Demand, pay per view and whatever else.
However, the standard for CC2 is not yet set, so Tivo3 cant incorporate a standard that does not yet exist.

We will likely have to buy another Tivo3/4 when CC2 gets implemented. Unless Tivo3 has some way to update its software and handle upcoming CC2.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> I just assumed it dynamically allocated certain streams to random channels. So why couldn't you order on the web for anything SDV and the system would say "OK your movie is ordered please tune to channel X to see it" where channel x is whatever channel they assign to you for SDV at that moment?


In a general sense ...

Well, the only thing technically missing from a 'one way host' for two way services is ... the upstream communication. So, you can always envision some alternate upstream communication (internet, phone, smoke signals off your back porch) along with some sort of downstream messaging (either something completely new ... or mapped onto existing downstream stuff) that would enable / allow just about any two-way service you could dream up.

For anything to actually work though ... well, you need cable companies to actually implement that solution. And, you need them to implement it in a standardized way. And, for existing one-way hosts you need them to implement it in a way that maps onto existing downstream stuff ...

Now, looking specifically at PPV via SDV (which, BTW, PPV is one of the main things cable operators talk about making switched) ...

The web / online ordering systems exist from back when everyone had one-way boxes and the only way for anyone to order PPV was via the phone. PPV channels were standard linear channels. You call up, cable system sends the CA (conditional access) info needed to view the channel. Box picks it up and ... you're good to go. Still works today for one-way CableCard hosts. I know it does because I've done it (YMMV, yada, yada, yada).

Now, if a cable company makes the PPV channels switched ...

As you've noted, the only new thing they'd need to get downstream is the channel info / mapping (and CA info). Heck, there's even an existing channel mapping table that could be used. Ordinarily, PPVs would point to a preview / ordering (via ITV) channel. Once you order (via a box or online), the channel map would be updated so that what you ordered pointed to an actual (though switchable) channel, your box gets the CA info, you're good to go ...

Yes, cable companies _could_ implement switched PPV like that in a way that would still work on one way CableCard hosts (as long as the host updated their channel maps and CA stuff frequently enough).

But will they? I dunno ... I haven't played around with any actuall SDV PPV deployments ...

There'd be some downsides for the cable operator. For example, they wouldn't be able to poll the box and see if you're still watching (and tear down the stream if you're not). They'd need to keep the stream allocated for the whole time you ordered. Ok, yes, that's probably the way most PPV orders would work. But ... is a vendor going to take (or a cable operator insist on) the time / effort to develop a system where PPV orders would still work on one-way (CableCard) hosts? Back when one-way hosts were the only thing around (even for the cable company) ... yes ... PPV had to work for one-way hosts. But now?

Anyway, yes, SDV PPV may very well still work for one-way CableCard hosts (after ordering via phone or online). Then again, it may not. I really wouldn't want to promise one way or the other. I would tend to assume it wouldn't ... but not be too surprised if it does.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

andydumi said:


> It seems that CC2 will be able to do bi-directional communications, so it will effectively work with SDV and Video on Demand, pay per view and whatever else.
> However, the standard for CC2 is not yet set, so Tivo3 cant incorporate a standard that does not yet exist.
> 
> We will likely have to buy another Tivo3/4 when CC2 gets implemented. Unless Tivo3 has some way to update its software and handle upcoming CC2.


thanks- I know CC2 is still a battle of wills betwean cea and cablelabs.

But I'm wondering about timeframes in general-

like is CC2 spec looking imminent?

If Tivo just had to add a docis modem and firwire port to the hardware could they do it quickly?

I realise any ansers would be mere speculation but i'm trying to get a feel of the reality here. I AM buying one series 3 for sure. If the price is right I'd grab a second. But if it looks like in a year Tivo would have the Series 3.5/4 then maybe i'd suck it up for another year and wait for that for my second box (I've been waiting "just another year" for directv for what seems like a decade before i gave up and plan on the series 3- so what's another....)


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

dt_dc said:


> In a general sense ...
> 
> Well, the only thing technically missing from a 'one way host' for two way services is ... the upstream communication. So, you can always envision some alternate upstream communication (internet, phone, smoke signals off your back porch) along with some sort of downstream messaging (either something completely new ... or mapped onto existing downstream stuff) that would enable / allow just about any two-way service you could dream up.
> 
> ...


well hopefuly Tivo's pleas with the FCC and the CEA's thoughts on the matter get the FCC involved and force them to implement something that would work....

(doubt it though with their general lack of forcing cable to comply with the intent of the law from years ago that promulgated the whole cablecard spec....)


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> But I'm still not 100% clear- would 2 way cablecards avert that? (in other words would 2-way cablecards be able to ask for and decode switched video?)





andydumi said:


> It seems that CC2 will be able to do bi-directional communications, so it will effectively work with SDV and Video on Demand, pay per view and whatever else.


The issue of SDV for Tivo (and other CE companies) under the _existing_ two-way specs and licensing agreements is that it still does not provide a good solution for Tivo.

Under the _existing_ two-way specs and licensing agreements ... Tivo (or Samsung or Panasonic or anyone else) can build a two-way DVR that downloads an EPG, DVR software, SDV software, etc. from the _cable company_ and can surf / record / etc. as provided for via the _cable provided_ software.

Cable-provided DVR software can record SDV channels.

Tivo-provided DVR software can not.

No Tivo wishlists or season passes or conflict management or prioritization or well ... any Tivo functionality of any kind.

Yes, Tivo (or Samsong or Panasonic or anyone else) certainly could build a two-way box like that which could tune and record SDV channels under the existing specs and licensing agreements. Not sure why Tivo would ... but yes they could.

Such a box is what Tivo is describing to the FCC with:


> http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6516887764
> 
> There is little doubt that cable would support two-way CableCARD products from manufacturers such as Samsung and LG Electronics as long as those products run OCAP and look, feel, operate and are controlled by cable operators in every way. Such products, however, do not provide consumers with a competitive alternative to operator-supplied integrated set-top boxes. They dont offer consumers additional innovative services and features. All they do is provide consumers with a choice between leasing a box from cable or buying essentially the very same box from Samsung or LG Electronics (plus leasing a CableCARD). In other words, you can lease a Honda Accord from your cable operator or you can buy a Honda Accord.


There is a new "OCAP 1.1" spec being cooked up ... to be released later this year ... that is supposed to address this (among other issues CE companies have with current two-way specs and licensing agreements):
http://www.cabledatacomnews.com/weekly_analysis/07062006_02.html
http://www.dtvprofessional.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=47998
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=98673
http://www.cedmagazine.com/toc-xod/2006/20060606.html

Now, hard to say how the "OCAP 1.1" specs will address SDV ... but ... my guess is there will be some sort of SDV standard hooks in the cable-provided OCAP software that will allow Tivo (or other CE company) provided software to actually tune (and record or whatever) an SDV channel. That would address Tivo's issues and make it viable for them to release a two-way product. Of course, even after the specs are released there's further negotiations and debate and whatnot so ...

But untill then, the options for two-way functionality for Tivo aren't real good ...

Samsung (or LG or Panasonic or whomever) may very well be willing to sell you a Honda Accord that competes with a leased Honda Accord from the cable company. I don't see that as Tivo's strategy.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

dt_dc,

Just wanted to say that I really appreciate your posts on issues related to SDV, CableCard and the FCC - I've learned quite a bit from these posts. I'm sure others have as well. Thanks.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

If TIVO releases the series 3 in it's current form, then I tihnk that they should either lower the price initial substantially or make a statement that if a customer buys a series 3 now and they reside somewhere where SDV renders it inept for recording from the cablecards, then they will ship a new series 3 to the customer once they get it working with SDV over the cablecard. (Whether that's through OCAP 1.1 or what not). They could make the offer even more enticing by offering a slightly higher price than the initial price for lifetime service on the series 3. but you would have to get in on the deal now, because the lifetime service offer would be gone after they released any new series 3 DVR which supported SDV streams over the cablecard.

If they did that, I trust TIVO enough to make good on their word and I trust that they will still be in business for a few years (maybe as mostly a software company, but nevertheless in business). So, I'd go for a deal like that, even in a soon to be TWC territory.

It might take TIVO time to get things working, but they have historically been true to their word and reliable.


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

I agree totally. I was ready to but 2 or even 3 S3 units, but unless this issue is nailed down so I'm not left holding a worthless piece of hardware in a few months I won't be buying any and will have to go to DirecTv's HDTV DVR unit.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

BillyT2002 said:


> If TIVO releases the series 3 in it's current form, then I tihnk that they should either lower the price initial substantially or make a statement that if a customer buys a series 3 now and they reside somewhere where SDV renders it inept for recording from the cablecards, then they will ship a new series 3 to the customer once they get it working with SDV over the cablecard. (Whether that's through OCAP 1.1 or what not). They could make the offer even more enticing by offering a slightly higher price than the initial price for lifetime service on the series 3. but you would have to get in on the deal now, because the lifetime service offer would be gone after they released any new series 3 DVR which supported SDV streams over the cablecard.
> 
> If they did that, I trust TIVO enough to make good on their word and I trust that they will still be in business for a few years (maybe as mostly a software company, but nevertheless in business). So, I'd go for a deal like that, even in a soon to be TWC territory.
> 
> It might take TIVO time to get things working, but they have historically been true to their word and reliable.


BTW....it's TiVo, not TIVO.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

Bierboy said:


> BTW....it's TiVo, not TIVO.


Well, if you want to get technical, it's *TiVo*

phox


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## PAP (Oct 6, 1999)

tIvO TiVo TIvo tiVO, whatever floats your boat I'm not buying any more unless this S3 problem is ReSoLvEd!


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## aztivo (Feb 23, 2005)

just my .02 but some of your are way over reacting to the possibility of one day having SDV... if you dont want to buy the S3 dont but, will feel silly if you dont get SDV for a few years or ever?... I know, I know your source said it was comming soon....


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I highly recommend anyone who cares about this issue to send an e-mail to [email protected] and blind carbon copy [email protected] on it.

Here is the e-mail that I sent: (I'm still waiting to hear back, but will post my response if I get one).

*Cablecard and SDV...*
Bill Tello
To: '[email protected]'
Bcc: '[email protected]'
___________________________________________________________

Hello:

My name is William Tello, I'm a 43 year-old software developer and I live with my wife Ellen in Waterville, Maine.

I am currently a DirecTV/NDS customer and I've owned a DirecTIVO and a standalone TIVO (with real TIVO software in them) for a long time now. I cannot rave enough about how much my wife and I love TIVO DVR(s). We no longer watch "live" television at all and have many "first run only" season passes set up to view our favorite programming.

We just purchased a Sony KD-34XBR960 widescreen high-definition television last year and we have a Hughes HR10-250 high-definition DirecTIVO receiver to run it.

The problem with DirecTV is now that Rupert Murdoch/NDS has taken over, they are moving away from DVR(s) with TIVO software built-in, in favor of their own prorietary DVR(s). Their high-definition line-up is very limited for $10.00 per month and their high-definition channels are broadcast in HD-LITE which is 1280x768p and not true high-definition which is 1920x1080i. They are also launching new satellites with Ka-Band/MPEG-4 capabilities which will not be compatible with the Hughes HR10-250 DirecTIVO DVR which I currently have. Coming this Fall, they are going to offer in my area, high-definition locals on a new DirecTV proprietary high-definition DVR (which if it based on their R15 model I hear is as buggy as many cable television provided DVR(s)). I'm not too excited about that.

Also, my area in Maine is an Adelphia territory and I've heard soon to become a Time-Warner area. At first I was excited about that; especially because I know that the TIVO Series 3 (which can record from two cablecards at once) is soon to be released and I though it would be great to use a TIVO S3 with Time-Warner cable. I thought that I would probably run one TIVO S3 with two cablecards and one TWC DVR for vide-on-demand and all of that within my A/V system.

Since then I have learned that Time-Warner is testing switched digital video in a few select markets and has plans to roll SDV out by the end of the year and then convert most (if not all) digital programming to use SDV in 2007. I have also learned that the TIVO S2 cannot record SDV programming (or even see it for that matter). I have also learned that TWC in Raleigh, North Carolina is refusing to even give cablecards to people for use in third-party devices.

I'm also aware that TIVO has filed with the FCC regarding the SDV issue and has asked the FCC to require the cable vendors to keep all original, broadcast and cable progrmming available on cablecard (and not using SDV). I really hope the FCC gets involved in this.

Anyway, I really wanted to speak with someone high-enough within the Time-Warner organization who has a knowledge of what I'm talking about and maybe can put some better perspective on it for me.

Is there any way I will be able to effectively use a TIVO S3 with TWC and still record high-definition and standard-definition, digital programming? I hope you have a better prognosis for this than what I am learning in tivocommunity.com, dbsforums.com, dbstalk.com, avsforums.com and satelliteguys.us.

So, far it looks like my best bet might be to remain a DirecTV customer, but I'm hoping that is not the case.

I won't go back to wathcing "live" television and have only three requirements for a DVR:

1. It must relibaly record all selected programming. (TIVO is about 99% - I can understand if the President addresses the nation or some other programming pre-empts my favorite programming)

2. It must reliably record only "first run" episodes of a season pass when instructed.

3. It must reliably fast-forward over commercial advertising.

I hope to hear back from you.

Best Regards,
Bill Tello
[email protected]


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## cheer (Nov 13, 2005)

BillyT2002 said:


> 3. It must reliably fast-forward over commercial advertising.


I would've left this out. Cable companies as well as network providers make revenue from advertising...


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## oldskoolboarder (Jul 8, 2003)

My source from Alviso tells me release sometime in September for $699. There's some significance about the September date but the person couldn't tell me.

Ideas on if there are any historical Tivo dates in September?


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## dylanursula (Jan 5, 2005)

Folks. Apologies for being thick.... but what does this mean for those of us on Comcast Digital. Can I use the S3 based on current info with a digital box receiver???


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

dylanursula said:


> Can I use the S3 based on current info with a digital box receiver???


The S3 does not work with an external STB. You will be able to use a CableCard from Comcast with the S3. There will also be a ComcasTiVo option.


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## gfb107 (Jul 16, 2001)

The S3 will not work with a seperate cable box (analog or digital) or STB (Set-Top-Box) of any kind.

The whole point of CableCard is to eliminate the STB and integrate the decryption and authorization into the S3 (or any other CableCard appliance). It is supposed to allow direct tuning of any cable channel, sort of like cable-ready TVs and VCRs. A CableCard appliance is supposed to be *digital cable ready*, so that no digital cable box is needed to be able to tune (and therefore watch or record) programming from a digital cable provider.

Since the cable companies make money by leasing their customers an STB (aka cable box), they don't really want CableCard to work.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I still think it was pretty silly to make a new TiVo that is incapable of working with a STB. That one decision, all by itself, may be enough to sink the Series 3. Is there any hope of a cheap and easy fix to this limitation?


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## dylanursula (Jan 5, 2005)

Lets hope Comcast will provide cable cards for the S3.....


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

bicker said:


> I still think it was pretty silly to make a new TiVo that is incapable of working with a STB. That one decision, all by itself, may be enough to sink the Series 3. Is there any hope of a cheap and easy fix to this limitation?


There is no techincal way of doing it which will not set the price of the unit in the many thousands.


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## Larry in TN (Jun 21, 2002)

dylanursula said:


> Lets hope Comcast will provide cable cards for the S3.....


They don't have a choice. The Series 3 is Cable Labs certified so they must provide Cablecards for it.


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## JTAnderson (Jun 6, 2000)

SullyND said:


> There is no techincal way of doing it which will not set the price of the unit in the many thousands.


I think there is. It's called Firewire / IEEE-1394.


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