# HR21 vs HR 10-250, forced replacement



## ckilkus (Nov 15, 2002)

I have been a DirecTV customer since almost when they first started, and for the last six years or so have been using DirecTivo. The last two or three have been on the HD DirecTivo HR10-250. I just moved to a new place and since I have been getting weekly calls from DirecTV about updating my box, I had them install the new HR21 that no longer uses the Tivo software when I moved in. 

I am profoundly disappointed. I gave my self 3 weeks to get used to it.... and have decided that it just works horribly, when compared to the Tivo software. I could list many inadequacies like terrible program guide, counter intuitive menus, slow functioning, etc. Yes, it does get a lot more HD channels, but personally I would give up some HD channels for better software. When I am watching TV I don't want to have to decipher several menus to get what I want, or spend 3 or 4 times longer to search through upcoming programs in the program guide.

On top of that there are frustrating glitches... audio being out of sync on some HD channels. And I have kept both boxes and compared them.... I swear the picture quality is noticeably poorer, especially when viewing HD, on the new HR21.

Am I crazy? It seems like this software and box is so poor that people would be more pissed off that we are being forced to switch? For the people out there that had to make the same switch as me, what is your experience?

I just priced out getting the same channel package from Time Warner Cable, and then using a cable card HD Tivo.... it's only about $10 more a month, which is totally worth it to me. Of course, I have to buy a tivo box for $300..... but I guess I'll have the HR21 I could sell too. I have been a happy and loyal DirecTV customer.... and have always had bad experiences with Cable TV.... so the idea of switching really bums me out. But this new box just isn't good.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

ckilkus said:


> I have been a DirecTV customer since almost when they first started, and for the last six years or so have been using DirecTivo. The last two or three have been on the HD DirecTivo HR10-250. I just moved to a new place and since I have been getting weekly calls from DirecTV about updating my box, I had them install the new HR21 that no longer uses the Tivo software when I moved in.
> 
> I am profoundly disappointed. I gave my self 3 weeks to get used to it.... and have decided that it just works horribly, when compared to the Tivo software. I could list many inadequacies like terrible program guide, counter intuitive menus, slow functioning, etc. Yes, it does get a lot more HD channels, but personally I would give up some HD channels for better software. When I am watching TV I don't want to have to decipher several menus to get what I want, or spend 3 or 4 times longer to search through upcoming programs in the program guide.
> 
> ...


There is soo many threads on this. Some prefer tivo and others prefer the HR20/21.

I will just say one quick thing. There is NO WAY your HR21 is slower unless there is something wrong with it. Also almost everyone I have heard you use both say the HR20/21 overall PQ on HD and SD is better. I feel the same.

Look, it's not Tivo. if the $10 month is fine with you, then switch. You cannot sell your HR21. They are leased and must be returned.

Yes the HR20/231 DVR lack some nice Tivo features, but you gain others as well. What I DO miss is DLB and the better guide. The wife misses the Wish List. The HR20/21 series are improving with better stuff every week.

Maybe just give it a few more months. If not then switch. For me I will not. Comcrap sucks here. Even with D* overall going down. I will OT pay $700+ for a SVR so I am stuck with D*.

I personally now enjoy the HR20 I have. Even if it was not better than Tivo for me, It still would not switch to cable.

Again, if you TRULY miss Tivo and can deal with your local CC, then go for it. It seems like you put your DVR choice before service and that's fine.

Good luck!


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

Yes, the HR20/21 sucks. Absolutely piss poor programming. Since you already have it, do this.

Press List>yellow button then select history in the left pane.

Look around for shows not recorded and find out why they were not recorded. You will be terribly disappointed.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> Again, if you TRULY miss Tivo and can deal with your local CC, then go for it. It seems like you put your DVR choice before service and that's fine.
> 
> Good luck!


That's the start to complete customer satisfaction is a good DVR of which the HR20 is not. If you want all the channels you can get in HD, then get a satellite receiver. If you want to record them, well, this ain't it. There's absolutely no thought that went into it.

If you like it, that's great. More power to you. I can't figure out why you do. The only thing it does right is record shows. That's it. It's got a terrible search engine in it and tons of useless information too. Well, have fun with your DirecTV DVR.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

Scott D said:


> Press List>yellow button then select history in the left pane.


Don't get used to that.
The HR2* series is going to get a Menu Structure update, in the next round of national releases (HR20's first followed by the HR21's).

And that particular key combination will no longer work.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

ckilkus said:


> ..
> When I am watching TV I don't want to have to decipher several menus to get what I want, or spend 3 or 4 times longer to search through upcoming programs in the program guide.


What are you searching for?
You must have used the TiVo guide style before.
You can get something similar, by highlighting the channel... hit INFO.



ckilkus said:


> On top of that there are frustrating glitches... audio being out of sync on some HD channels. And I have kept both boxes and compared them.... I swear the picture quality is noticeably poorer, especially when viewing HD, on the new HR21.


What particular channels are you seeing the out of sync on.
There are some channels that are out of sync from the source... as you can see the out of sync on H20/H21 boxes as well. And some have even shown up on other carriers

As for which channels are looking poorer... again..
Which ones. Considering that they use the EXACT same data feeds for both units, on the channels they can both tune.... it may be a calibration issue with your particular inputs.

Or it could be up-converted content on the channels you are watching at the time... as even though they are "HD" they are not broadcastion true HD content 24/7



ckilkus said:


> Am I crazy? It seems like this software and box is so poor that people would be more pissed off that we are being forced to switch? For the people out there that had to make the same switch as me, what is your experience?


I have now been using the GUI for 26 months (since the R15). It probably took me a good month, to get used to it in general... about 3 months to get the point that I don't have to think about where anything is (including the remote).

Some of the upcomming GUI/Menu changes... are going to go a LONG way to help simply finding things in the system, and make it very consistant accross all areas of the unit.



ckilkus said:


> I just priced out getting the same channel package from Time Warner Cable, and then using a cable card HD Tivo.... it's only about $10 more a month, which is totally worth it to me. Of course, I have to buy a tivo box for $300..... but I guess I'll have the HR21 I could sell too. I have been a happy and loyal DirecTV customer.... and have always had bad experiences with Cable TV.... so the idea of switching really bums me out. But this new box just isn't good.


You can't sell your HR21... unless you got it flagged as owned... or spent $800 on it, to actually own it.


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## gio1269 (Jul 27, 2006)

Scott D said:


> That's the start to complete customer satisfaction is a good DVR of which the HR20 is not. If you want all the channels you can get in HD, then get a satellite receiver. If you want to record them, well, this ain't it. There's absolutely no thought that went into it.
> 
> If you like it, that's great. More power to you. I can't figure out why you do. The only thing it does right is record shows. That's it. It's got a terrible search engine in it and tons of useless information too. Well, have fun with your DirecTV DVR.


It works a hell lot better for me than Tivo does except for the DLB and the wish list.
There are plenty of people who feel the HR20 is BETTER than the HR10? 

Maybe you just need to open your mind about a DVR and stop being so focused on TIVO.


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## ckilkus (Nov 15, 2002)

Yeah, used the Tivo guide before because it works so much better. Thanks for the tip on the highlight channel and info button..... it's still not as easy as tivo though.... this box makes you go through so many menus to get to things that Tivo had quick access to.

Out of sync happens randomly on all HD channels... usually though it shows up on USA HD. Also on all hd channels I randomly get the picture in a small 16x19 format.. something like equal to a 37" plasma on my 50" plasma (black bars all around the picture). I have a lot of picture format issues with this box, it seems to be trying to force my Panny plasma to show weird formats, and never had any problems at all with the HR10-250. I am forced to watch a lot of shows pillared, when before the HR10-250 box would allow the Panny plasma to use it's stretch option to fill the screen. Strange, I can't figure it out....

Also, I am noticing that it sometimes doesn't record pay per view. In other words, I buy a pay per view movie through one menu, then have to go to another menu to record it (who the hell wrote this software??). The recording shows up in my playlist, but when I select it, it turns out it has just recorded a black screen. There is no pattern to this, it just seems to happen randomly.

All channels look poorer, in my opinion, even SD.... sometimes the difference is slight, and sometimes it is really obvious.

Are the feeds really the same on the HR10-250 and the HR21? I thought that was why I am being forced to upgrade to the HR21?

Anyway, the longer I use this thing the more problems and glitches show up. It reminds me of the two months I spent about 3 years ago trying out a Adelphia HD DVR box.. it's basically the same software, has just as many bugs and works just as poorly.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

ckilkus said:


> Yeah, used the Tivo guide before because it works so much better. Thanks for the tip on the highlight channel and info button..... it's still not as easy as tivo though.... this box makes you go through so many menus to get to things that Tivo had quick access to.
> 
> Out of sync happens randomly on all HD channels... usually though it shows up on USA HD. Also on all hd channels I randomly get the picture in a small 16x19 format.. something like equal to a 37" plasma on my 50" plasma (black bars all around the picture). I have a lot of picture format issues with this box, it seems to be trying to force my Panny plasma to show weird formats, and never had any problems at all with the HR10-250. I am forced to watch a lot of shows pillared, when before the HR10-250 box would allow the Panny plasma to use it's stretch option to fill the screen. Strange, I can't figure it out....
> 
> ...


With the new menu changes that are comming... will go a long way in helping the "searching around" for things in the menu... but after a while, you just get used to where everything is. it's a learning curve thing. IMHO

That small edging is something that the content providers are stuffing in there. It is not the HR2*/H2* series. They are pre-matting it... so you are getting a full 16:9, but with the black edging.

The PPV... is a current bug introduced in the last national release... they have been working on it.

IMHO... the SD looks equal or better in most cases... But I haven't seen the SD output of an HR10-250 in over a year.

Yes, they really are using the IDENTICAL data feeds. 
Any channel the HR10-250 can tune in... the HR2* tunes in the exact same data feed.

The HR10-250 can not see any of the newer MPEG-4 channels.
Hence the need to go to the HR2* series DVRs


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

ckilkus do you have the box configured for NATIVE or non native output? You might want to lock the box to one output type rather than letting it keep switching back and forth. That could possibly the source of your difficulties with the picture changing on you.

Also, if you've not already visited dbstalk.com spend some time there. Find the TiVo users to HR20 survival guide and other helpful hint type information there and read through it. It is a ton of information to take in and get used to, but the guides there help a lot and can help lessen the frustration level.

As Earl notes above (and he is certainly in the know on these things), the interface will be changing and improving. Most of the folks that have had a chance to use the new interface have been pleased. Things are getting better and easier on the box and yes, it's obvious that DirecTV has heard the complaints and is working hard to make things better for everyone.

Either way, I wish you the best of luck and hope you find a happy place for your TV watching.

Finally, before I run here, regarding this:


> All channels look poorer, in my opinion, even SD.... sometimes the difference is slight, and sometimes it is really obvious.
> 
> Are the feeds really the same on the HR10-250 and the HR21? I thought that was why I am being forced to upgrade to the HR21?


Again, check to make sure of what you have your display settings at. You can lock them at any resolution you want, or have them change automatically. Some people find the automatic changes are not as pleasing as just locking the signal at say 1080i and having their TV handle the format changes as necessary. If your TV has a good scaler built in, it may do a better job than the HR21 does, hence the better results that might be found via experimentation.

As to the feeds being the same - for channels that are received on both boxes they are the same. But... you may see MPEG4 versions of channels on the HR20/HR21 that you can't see on the HR10. HR20/HR21 boxes automatically map the channels to the same numbers, but then you would typically see two copies of the channel in your guide. One that is SD, one that is HD.

MPEG2 hi-def channels are the same on all boxes. For example, HBOHD is broadcast in MPEG2, is shown as channel 70 and channel 509 (if I remember right) on HR10 boxes, but also comes through as channel 501 on HR20/HR21 boxes. There's no difference in the channel at all. It's MPEG2 and is just a remapping of the same channel on the other numbers.

On the other hand, if you check out HBOWHD (West version of the main HBO channel, in HD) that is an MPEG4 only signal and can only be received on the HR20/HR21 (or H20/H21 boxes). Comparing a recording from that channel against the same thing recorded from the MPEG2 version would give you a good idea of how the quality of the two compression schemes differs.


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

gio1269 said:


> It works a hell lot better for me than Tivo does except for the DLB and the wish list.
> There are plenty of people who feel the HR20 is BETTER than the HR10?
> 
> Maybe you just need to open your mind about a DVR and stop being so focused on TIVO.


That I am not. All you got to do is do what I did. Compare the two units side by side and compare ONLY the same features that are found on both of them. What I said is true. Nothing is made up. All I'm saying is if you are going to put something into the DVR, WHETHER YOU USE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!! should work to a point where it gives you accurate information. Would you like to look at a TV guide that says a certain show will be on but it doesn't tell you when it's on? Of coarse neither the TiVo nor the HR20 does that but what if it did? Is that OK with you? Even if the TiVo did that, I'll be much happier having the HR20 instead of the TiVo.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

ckilkus said:


> ...Am I crazy?...


Are you married? Ask her. 

The fact that your HR21 is slower than TiVo means you have a bad HR21. Call for a replacement. If you make a change in the Season Pass Manager of a TiVo, go get a cup of coffee, have lunch, go on a cruise.

The HR21 Prioritizer (Season Pass Manager) is instantaneous. So is setting up a recording. If yours isn't, you need a new receiver.

Also, have you checked out the HD DVR FAQ?

In particular:
● 144 Undocumented HD DVR PLUS Tips & Tricks
● TiVo Users Survival Guide

Regardless, you are under warranty. Get it replaced.

- Craig


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## ckilkus (Nov 15, 2002)

Thanks for the link to the HR20 survival guide.

I have the box set to one format 1080i, because native was really slow to switch. But still have the formatting problems. The prematting thing is weird... it makes the picture SO much smaller on my screen, even though it is in 16:9 format. I don't understand why this doesn't happen on the HR10-250 if I am getting the same feeds?

I'll try to chck out the Mpeg2 vs. Mpeg4 and see if I notice a difference. I wonder if maybe the HR10-250 just handles the signals better than the HR2* ..... I have them side by side and there is a difference.

I'll try to stick it out for the changes to the menu software.... hopefully that is soon? Any ideas when? In the meantime I'll probably mostly just use the HR10-250. I assume at some point that box just won't work at all because they are switching all the signals to Mpeg4? Anyone know when that is happening? If they haven't improved the HR2* software by then I'm pretty sure I'll be switch to cable, get a couple cable cards and spend the money on an HDTivo.....


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## ckilkus (Nov 15, 2002)

Yes, the Prioritzier is much faster on the HR21, that is for certain. Although I use it so infrequently on the DirecTiivo it never really bothered me. What is much slower on the HR21 is the remote response. So in other words, I press the guide or list or some other button on the remote and there is a delay until that action happens on the box. Then in a menu, I press a button to navigate, and again there is a slight delay. And then if I think the signal didn't go through and hit the button again, after a slight delay BOTH actions happen and I have to start all over. It's certainly not massively slow, but these actions on my direcTivo are instantaneous and I have just gotten really used to it.


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## terpfan1980 (Jan 28, 2002)

ckilkus said:


> Yes, the Prioritzier is much faster on the HR21, that is for certain. Although I use it so infrequently on the DirecTiivo it never really bothered me. What is much slower on the HR21 is the remote response. So in other words, I press the guide or list or some other button on the remote and there is a delay until that action happens on the box. Then in a menu, I press a button to navigate, and again there is a slight delay. And then if I think the signal didn't go through and hit the button again, after a slight delay BOTH actions happen and I have to start all over. It's certainly not massively slow, but these actions on my direcTivo are instantaneous and I have just gotten really used to it.


If the remote is responding slow it begs the question about whether you are using the remote in IR mode or if you have it configured for RF?

Also, have you considered trying a universal remote instead? You might get a better response from a third party remote (which I know is poor, since the remote that DirecTV supplies should work well enough that you shouldn't need to replace it).


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

No, the prioritzier is not faster than the TiVo. The only difference is that you don't have to wait for it to finish as you do on the TiVo. While you are watching TV or something the prioritizer is working in the background, so it is really unknown as to whether the TiVo is faster or the HR20 is. At least with the TiVo, you know when it's done but not with the HR20 series.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

That's a lot like having to watch the toilet flush to make sure all the yellow goes down. Ridiculous.

Whether its faster or not or finishes now or later, you don't have to wait for the HR2x to prioritize, you get the option to go do whatever else you want to on the HR2x while it "finishes" in the background. With the HR10, on the other hand, "Please wait" is the order of the day for reordering SPs. All other life ceases to exist until it's damned good and ready to move on. If you have 35 SPs, you might as well go make a sandwich. most folks would not characterize that as "faster". 

TC is not a dick-measuring contest. Let's not devolve to that level.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

ckilkus said:


> I'll try to stick it out for the changes to the menu software.... hopefully that is soon? Any ideas when?


The HR20 is going to see it probably in the next two weeks.
The HR21 will be shortly after that...


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> The HR20 is going to see it probably in the next two weeks.
> The HR21 will be shortly after that...


Thanks Earl, I'm looking forward to the 30 second skip. The slip is OK but I miss the skip. Will CIR be fixed anytime soon?


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

CIR is gradually being fixed. On my HR21, there are large blocks of channels now properly removed from the list, though some remain. It's a heck of an improvement from even a month ago.


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

Any chance for "suggestions" ? I miss having a bunch of stuff I might like recorded when I get home. Now I have to preset everything if I want any shows to record.


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## joed32 (Jul 9, 2005)

stevel said:


> CIR is gradually being fixed. On my HR21, there are large blocks of channels now properly removed from the list, though some remain. It's a heck of an improvement from even a month ago.


Thanks for the good news.


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

snoots said:


> Any chance for "suggestions" ? I miss having a bunch of stuff I might like recorded when I get home. Now I have to preset everything if I want any shows to record.


Unless TiVo license Suggestions to DirecTV... I doubt you will see it in the same style/method that TiVo currently does it.


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

I agreed to an upgrade - but instead (unfortunately) received the H21 and not the HR21 - my mistake for not confirming this with the rep. I just assumed by "upgrade" they meant a receiver with a DVR not not just a receiver as it was replacing my HR10-250.

What are my options? Did I just shoot myself in the foot on this one?


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## ebonovic (Jul 24, 2001)

denary said:


> I agreed to an upgrade - but instead (unfortunately) received the H21 and not the HR21 - my mistake for not confirming this with the rep. I just assumed by "upgrade" they meant a receiver with a DVR not not just a receiver as it was replacing my HR10-250.
> 
> What are my options? Did I just shoot myself in the foot on this one?


Call them... and explain what happened.


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## denary (Sep 30, 2002)

ebonovic said:


> Call them... and explain what happened.


called - replacement unit will be installed on thurs!

thx


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## Cudahy (Mar 21, 2001)

I'll have to add "suggestions" to my growing list of reasons for keeping Tivo.


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## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

ckilkus said:


> I swear the picture quality is noticeably poorer, especially when viewing HD, on the new HR21.
> 
> Am I crazy? .


i compared HD locals on hr20 to my OTA on the HDtivo....on my crt rptv they were identical. Your display may vary of course


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## Scott D (Jun 17, 2001)

Cudahy said:


> I'll have to add "suggestions" to my growing list of reasons for keeping Tivo.


I'll have to add all the S3 features TiVo has to change mine!!! I like what I see TiVo is doing.


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## snoots (Aug 14, 2002)

I don't see why they can't add a feature with similar function but called something else afterall they stole the entire DVR concept right?? HR20 has series link in place of season pass, I just don't get the difference. In order to record anything you have to know ahead of time exactly what you want. The TIVO would record shows based on my viewing habits so I got a lot of dramas/action movies/series. I deleted a lot of them but watched quite a few. Now when I get home there is nothing on either HR20 but my Tivo has a bunch of shows ready to go. THe HR20 has recorded "most" of the series links I set up with just a few screw ups and my TIVO is backing up the ones I care about.


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## shibby191 (Dec 24, 2007)

snoots said:


> I don't see why they can't add a feature with similar function but called something else afterall they stole the entire DVR concept right?? HR20 has series link in place of season pass, I just don't get the difference. In order to record anything you have to know ahead of time exactly what you want. The TIVO would record shows based on my viewing habits so I got a lot of dramas/action movies/series. I deleted a lot of them but watched quite a few. Now when I get home there is nothing on either HR20 but my Tivo has a bunch of shows ready to go. THe HR20 has recorded "most" of the series links I set up with just a few screw ups and my TIVO is backing up the ones I care about.


They can't add a suggestions feature because Tivo has patents on the "thumbs up/thumbs down" method (which is the way the whole suggestions engine works) as well as the suggestions method in general. There is a reason why there has never been another DVR (up to this point) out there with suggestions other then Tivo. 

Now DirecTV does have a "poor mans" version of suggestions via their online web site. You can rate programs and movies online (which isn't a Tivo patent of course since you can rate all kinds of things online). You then get suggested programs based on what you rated, similar to Netflix. Then with remote booking you can simply tell your DVR to record them. Not the same but if you're bored at work you can setup a couple dozen suggestions to record in just a few minutes. At least it's something.


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## milominderbinder (Dec 18, 2006)

snoots said:


> Any chance for "suggestions" ? I miss having a bunch of stuff I might like recorded when I get home. Now I have to preset everything if I want any shows to record.


The HR20/21 is getting a better Suggestions than TiVo:

Better Suggestions than TiVo!
+ Use anywhere, any time from any PC (even at work)
+ Get hundreds of suggestions for a night, day, week, or any specific day up to 14 days in advance
+ Get general suggestions for the next week
+ Click on the show link to see more information
+ Use Remote Booking to set up set up the recording in your HD DVR+

You will get it with the next National Release.

- Craig


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