# Tell me why I bought a Bolt again?



## beyondthetech (Jan 2, 2015)

I still own my Premiere XL4 2TB that I won in a TiVo contest on Twitter. After a free year of service included, I added the lifetime to it, and it's been humming along beautifully. However, the included video services like YouTube, Netflix and Amazon were painfully slow to start up and use, that I ended up getting TiVo Minis and relegated the Premiere to serve simply as a remote tuner, show recorder and server for the Minis.

While I saw a few Roamios going on sale with lifetime, it's the QuickMode and SkipMode of the Bolts that convinced me to skip the Roamio line altogether, especially considering that the Roamios could be forsaken or made obsolete because of the Bolt line.

So, while my family and I are enjoying the Bolt, I hear now that the QuickMode and SkipMode have come to the Roamio. Now, I want to make this clear - it's not that I'm some snob and don't want previous models not to be supported, as I'm sure I'd be begging TiVo to implement those features if I owned a Roamio. But with those two specifically advertised features on the Bolt to get people to want to upgrade, why shouldn't I just pack up the Bolt before my return window is over and grab a Roamio instead, now that it can do it, too?

Lifetime on the Bolt is a whopping $599, and that doesn't include the $200-300 price tag of the Bolt, yet I've seen Roamios with lifetime for less than that.

So, what am I getting by sticking with the Bolt?


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

If you are on cable/FIOS the Roamio Pro with lifetime deal for $600 has always been a better deal than the Bolt. Just like the $300 deal for the OTA Roamio with lifetime was a better deal for OTA only users. 

The Bolt is simple the newer model and you have to pay for that. From my point of view I prefer the Bolt over my Roamio and it is easy to tell the difference, especially when opening an app. That said their is nothing wrong with my Roamio if works fine, just a little slower than the Bolt. 

If paying extra for the Bolt is worth it or not is personal, so no one can answer that for you but you. And as with all tech, a newer, faster (and likely more expensive) unit will be coming which will temp some to upgrade again while others will be perfectly happy using what they have. Then at some point the Bolt will get cheaper and be the better deal - remember the max price of my base Roamio with lifetime was $700 at one point and dropped to $400 last summer after about 2 years.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

You paid for the beautiful art gallery contemporary design that causes everyone who gazes upon it to ponder the meaning of life.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

The Bolt is considerably faster than the Roamio.

If SkipMode has come to the Roamio, nobody told mine. (Then again, hmm... I moved all the SPs that I thought would benefit from SkipMode over to the Bolt when I got it, so it would be hard to notice. _Has_ SkipMode come to the Roamio?)


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## BRiT wtfdotcom (Dec 17, 2015)

wmcbrine said:


> The Bolt is considerably faster than the Roamio.
> 
> If SkipMode has come to the Roamio, nobody told mine. (Then again, hmm... I moved all the SPs that I thought would benefit from SkipMode over to the Bolt when I got it, so it would be hard to notice. _Has_ SkipMode come to the Roamio?)


Yes, Roamio and minis from the roamio have skipmode.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

BRiT wtfdotcom said:


> Yes, Roamio and minis from the roamio have skipmode.


Not all Roamio's have received it yet but should by next week.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I haven't owned a Bolt but I did put together a list which especially now with SkipMode on Roamio doesn't make the Bolt look too good. Here's my list. Perhaps Bolt owners can add more in the Plus side:

BOLT DISADVANTAGES (vs Roamio Plus/Pro)
* No analog output (for Slingbox)
* Only 4 tuners
* $600 lifetime or $150 yearly
* No out of home streaming with built in stream
* No in home streaming of copy protected programs?
* Only supports 2 streams at a time for built in stream (vs 4 for Roamio)
* Can't disable clipping in software
* Ugly white box with strange form factor

BOLT ADVANTAGES
* Better CPU and memory - quicker running Opera applications
* Opera browser can play 1080p videos (1080p transcoding in PLEX)
* Faster networking
* 4K


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I can stream copy-protected stuff in-home no problem.

There's also faster networking (over OTA/base Roamio) -- gigabit, 802.11ac, moca 2.0

There isn't a long list of benefits. It comes down mostly to how much you appreciate the extra speed and 4K vs. price and extra tuners. But even the Roamio speed is perfectly acceptable. I've had no complaints.

Getting a Roamio and skipping the Bolt generation is totally legit, especially with the pricing getting jacked up and the uncertainty about the future regarding ATSC 3.0 (for OTA units) and cablecard's replacement.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> The Bolt is considerably faster than the Roamio.
> 
> If SkipMode has come to the Roamio, nobody told mine. (Then again, hmm... I moved all the SPs that I thought would benefit from SkipMode over to the Bolt when I got it, so it would be hard to notice. _Has_ SkipMode come to the Roamio?)


Skip mode rollout to Roamio is scheduled to be finished by 2/24.

https://support.tivo.com/articles/Features_Use/SkipMode


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Why Bolt for me?

1) Faster
2) Newest model and will thus be supported the longest
3) Could care less about lifetime, I'm sure I'll be on to a newer box or totally different technology not invented yet by the time lifetime would pay for itself, things are moving really, really fast in the OTT space
4) Being newest will eventually be the only one to get new services and features
5) 4K should I ever get a 4K TV (which will probably be sooner then later as my Plasma creeps up to 10 years old
6) No feature of any Roamio device over the Bolt is something I care about

Everyone needs to do their own list though.


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## beyondthetech (Jan 2, 2015)

Thanks for all the constructive replies. Forgive me for sounding optimistic, but forums can be a haven for notorious trolls, but this community seems very helpful to each other. As I just upgraded my TV as well to a 4K model, I will stick with the Bolt and pay yearly until a new model comes out, so I won't have to be at a crossroads again like I was with my Premiere.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Just wait. There are two or three participants that live to tell you how wrong you are. There is also the ignore list.

I'm still waiting for TiVo to get better with HDMI issues, and I need a new AVR before I go 4k. Maybe this fall.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

I was very surprised they rolled out SkipMode to the Roamios. That was the one feature that might have got me to buy a Bolt instead of another Roamio. Since 4K was useless to me, a SkipMode enabled Roamio Pro for $599 with lifetime was a no-brainer. I jumped on the deal and never looked back. To be honest, if I had upgraded to a Bolt and then found out that the Roamios were getting SkipMode, I would have been pretty annoyed.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Since there is currently replacement for the Plus/Pro in the Bolt line they pretty much had to. If there was a replacement then they might not have.


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## colodane (Oct 6, 2015)

Thanks for all the reports. I have been considering the Bolt as my first TiVo, but the number (not unanimous, I know) of reports of poor OTA reception by the tuners has been the final factor that has made me decide not to purchase one. I was willing to try and overlook the
* White color
* Goofy case shape
* Loud fan
* Pulling out my hair to get a Comcast Cable Card to work

But now there are just too many negatives. I'll grit my teeth and stay with Comcast cable for a few more months until something more appealing comes along.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I haven't had any problems with my Bolt OTA. I get exactly the same signal as I did with my Roamio OTA. I wouldn't let a handful of reports about bad tuners on these forums scare ypu off. People tend to seek out forums like this to complain more so then to praise.

Although your concerns are a bit confusing since you mention that reports of poor OTA reception AND potential hassles of getting CablCARD working as deterrants. You do realize that the Bolt is either/or right? You can set it up as either OTA or cable, not both.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I had no problems with Bolt OTA reception either. It works just as well as my Roamio Basic.

And at my GFs house, she uses table top antennas. When I tested the Bolt there, the Bolt picked up the same channels as her Series 3 Box and her Roamio Basic with table top antennas.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

Is it just me, or does it seem like every time a new TiVo is released, people complain that the OTA reception is worse than previous models? By now, I'd expect to get better OTA reception on a submarine in the middle of the Pacific (been there, done that) with my S3 than a Bolt a few miles with LOS to the transmitters. 

Sorry, my only OTA TiVo is a TivoHD*, so I can't really contribute anything to the discussion.

I think its caps are failing. A tuner will drop out. Completely. No signal. I have to reboot. Sometimes both drop. 100% reproducible if I try to debug with the signal strength option. It worked FINE before I bought my Roamio. That must be the cause, right?  Can cap failure cause OTA tuner failures on the TivoHD? They work after a reboot, and then some point the tuners stop working. I pulled its cable card over a year ago and it is just OTA, but I get over a dozen channels via bunny ears.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> 3) Could care less about lifetime, I'm sure I'll be on to a newer box or totally different technology not invented yet by the time lifetime would pay for itself, things are moving really, really fast in the OTT space
> ....
> Everyone needs to do their own list though.


I totally agree with your last point. 100%

But when it comes to #3 above, part of the reason for purchasing lifetime is that it puts some additional equity into your device. And that equity is owned by you and can be sold. For example, I was able to sell two tivo premeire's that I had for about $500 and then used that to upgrade my household to a roamio ota and mini. And I paid about $50 for the upgrade. And most of that came from the need to install a moca adapter so that the mini could connect to the roamio.

IMHO the lifetime / all-in deal is an incredibly good deal. I glad that tivo offers it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

It was a good deal, not so much at $600 plus the loss of the "free" year that is included in the price of the box. Assuming you paud full MSRP it would cost you $900 for a Bolt with lifetime. If you wanted to upgrade in 3 years you would need to sell the lifetime Bolt for $300 more then a non-lifetime Bolt just to break even. For it to actually be advantageous you'd have to sell it for significantly more. 

The $400 lifetime deal offered to existing users makes it a bit better though.


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## dmurphy (Jan 17, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> It was a good deal, not so much at $600 plus the loss of the "free" year that is included in the price of the box. Assuming you paud full MSRP it would cost you $900 for a Bolt with lifetime. If you wanted to upgrade in 3 years you would need to sell the lifetime Bolt for $300 more then a non-lifetime Bolt just to break even. For it to actually be advantageous you'd have to sell it for significantly more.
> 
> The $400 lifetime deal offered to existing users makes it a bit better though.


It makes the $299 refurb lifetime 'base' Roamios I picked up this summer seem like a screaming deal!

And indeed, they are. For both me *and* TiVo. And smart marketing too. I've since added a Roamio Plus. With lifetime. And 4 Mini's.

I've also been on a campaign to convert friends and family - at least 6 other households that I know of have converted since they've seen my setup.

It's a marketing machine - a quick 3 minute demo sells the thing every time!


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

If your only goal is to break even then yeah that $600 all-in deal is going to make that hard to do. But if your goal is to reduce your total cost of ownership, then I think lifetime / all-in is still a pretty good deal compared to monthly.

Let me give you an example from a recent experience I had. I recently sold two premieres each of which had lifetime attached to them. Here's the numbers:

$400 tivo premiere device purchase ($200 x 2 devices)
$800 lifetime subscription ($400 x 2 devices)
$1200 total investment
$500 resale value ($250 x 2 devices)
*$700 Total cost of ownership for 2 tivos with lifetime subscription*
Now compare that to a monthly subscription had I gone that route.

$400 tivo premiere device purchase ($200 x 2 devices)
$960 monthly subscription ($10 / mo * 4 years * 2 devices)
$1360 total investment
$100 resale value (estimated $50/tivo based on average ebay sales)
*$1260 Total cost of ownership for the same 2 tivos w/out lifetime subscription*
The reason that lifetime is such a great deal is that you pay for it then you own it. And you can resell it. The value of that lifetime decreases some, but not to zero. A monthly subscription is not resellable and it's value goes immediately to zero.

And the bolt subscription rates do make this calculation a little bit closer, but the same principal still holds. Running similar numbers for Bolt all-in vs monthly, using similar depreciation assumptions, I get the 4 year TCO for each to be (for 1 bolt)

$525 all-in subscription 
$675 yearly ($150/year)
$765 monthly subscription - 1 yr commitment ($15/mo)
$945 monthly subscription - no commitment ($20/mo)
Basically lifetime / all-in reduces the total cost of ownership of the same device by a non-trivial amount. IMHO it's still a great deal.

Assumptions:

In 4 years you could resell a bolt w/lifetime for $375 (42% of initial value - based on my sale of a $600 premiere w/lifetime for $250)
In 4 years you could resell a bolt w/o lifetime for $75 (20% of initial value - based on ebay sales of $200 premieres for about $50)

*UPDATE:* I recalculated bolt numbers. Forgot that it included 1 year subscription.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Let's go with your assumptions... 

A 500GB Bolt with All-in is $800. So after 4 years you'd be able to sell it for $336. (42%)

A 500GB Bolt with a year included is $200. You'd have to pay 3 more years at $150/year to get to 4 years. So $650 total. You could sell that for $40. (20%) 

That means your net profit on the lifetime service is $146 which isn't great, but OK. However if you did the exact same thing at 3 years instead, then the math doesn't come out as favorable. You'd have to sell the lifetime Bolt for $340 just to break even and you'd need to sell it for $486 (61%) to get the same profit you'd get from the 4 year mark. 

If you're sure you'll keep the Bolt for at least 4 year then it should work out. Although given the current situation with a potential CableCARD replacement and TiVo's patents expiring next year, I wouldn't be so sure that Bolt would be worth anything at all in 4 years.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Although given the current situation with a potential CableCARD replacement and TiVo's patents expiring next year, I wouldn't be so sure that Bolt would be worth anything at all in 4 years.


That's where I am at with the Lifetime vs. yearly debate. There is *so* much that will be changing in the next 5 years from multiple fronts I feel pretty confident it'll be a paperweight in 5 years and I'll be on to something else. Sure, it may not happen but confidence is pretty high on this one.

Reselling only works out if there is still a market for it and someone is willing to buy it. Otherwise you'll just be donating it to the Good Will.


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## mjh (Dec 19, 2002)

Sorry for the late response. But I was on a cruise for the last week. If knowing I was on a cruise last week makes you feel bad, trust me, it makes me feel worse knowing I'm not on it this week. 



Dan203 said:


> A 500GB Bolt with All-in is $800. So after 4 years you'd be able to sell it for $336. (42%)


Umm. Isn't a 500GB bolt w/all-in $900 ($300 base price + $600 all-in)?



> A 500GB Bolt with a year included is $200. You'd have to pay 3 more years at $150/year to get to 4 years. So $650 total. You could sell that for $40. (20%)


Same question. Shouldn't that be $750 for 4 years ($300 base + $450 sub)?

If the price for the box is actually $300 rather than $200, that price then changes your numbers.

Add $100 to your $146 profit after 4 years. That's $246 that you don't ever have to pay out! Even if it's only $146, it's still $146 that you don't have to pay.

Or if you're talking about 3 years, now you only have to sell the box for $240 to break even. After 3 years, I suspect you're going to get more than 42% of your cost. Especially if tivo doesn't have a newer competitor out by then.



> given the current situation with a potential CableCARD replacement and TiVo's patents expiring next year, I wouldn't be so sure that Bolt would be worth anything at all in 4 years.


That's true. And it's also compounded by the (IMHO slim) possibility that ATSC 1.0 could be deprecated in favor of ATSC 3.0. Those are the only two things that make all-in/lifetime a bad deal. I guess I'm pretty skeptical that either of those two things will actually get done in the next 4 years.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mjh said:


> Umm. Isn't a 500GB bolt w/all-in $900 ($300 base price + $600 all-in)?


Right now if a person is buying a new Bolt there is a deal to purchase all in/lifetime for $400. So total cost is $700 or less. You can read about it in earlier post in this thread or in this thread: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=538319


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

I wouldn't make the decision on a BOLT solely on the OTA tuning concerns. But personally I have set up two different BOLTs for OTA in three different geographic locations and had some significant issues with tuning. I was able to eventually get the tuning to an acceptable level in two of those locations but it was a challenge. There was a definite difference in the number of channels the BOLT would tune vs. my Roamio or compared to several different TV tuners. However there are numerous others reporting good results with their OTA tuning, so experiences vary. I would recommend to anyone considering a BOLT to try it out. If you don't get satisfactory reception just return it within the 30 day window. I'm truly hoping for the BOLT to be hugely successful for TiVo. Hopefully this layoff doesn't reflect otherwise.


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## jonw747 (Aug 2, 2015)

beyondthetech said:


> While I saw a few Roamios going on sale with lifetime, it's the QuickMode and SkipMode of the Bolts that convinced me to skip the Roamio line altogether, especially considering that the Roamios could be forsaken or made obsolete because of the Bolt line.


Personally, I thought the price/features of the Roamio Plus were far more important than only having to press skip once on certain shows; but since that didn't sway you to the Roamio, and the Bolt still does everything now that it did 30-days ago and the price for lifetime has gone down, I don't see why you wouldn't stay with what you've got.


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