# Will You Buy Another Tivo?



## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

Most of the cost is for the online program guide.
Under Rovi, the program guide has become inaccurate and problem-prone.
Is the Rovi guide worth what you have to pay?
I say no.
Add to that the growing availability of programs "on demand." DVR recording is becoming - or has become - obsolete. Plus programs get clipped because guides are not accurate. 
When my box dies, that's it.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I didn't answer your survey because the answer is "depends". Being OTA and not a sports fan I really don't have any issues with the Guide data. 

I have 5 fully functional HD OTA TiVos all with lifetime so I have no need for another. 2 of my TiVos are a base Roamio and Bolt 1TB both work very well so if TiVo releases something new I still see no reason for buying another TiVo. 

However if something happened to all my TiVos I would buy another as soon as possible. Also if ATSC 3.0 shows up and TiVo offers an ATSC 3.0 OTA DVR I would buy one also.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Absolutely, positively, with no shadow of a doubt - NO. I have 2 Roamio Pros, 4 Minis, and an old HD - all with lifetime. When the Roamio Pros no longer function, I'm done. I'm not interested in any new product Tivo has. IMHO when you consider the Rovi fiasco, the obvious apathy toward quality, using us as alpha and beta testers, an inability to address real problems, poor customer service, increased costs by higher service costs when compared to the now defunct multi-box discounts and the fact that lifetime is much more expensive, and the capabilities of the competition combined with much stronger streaming options, Tivo is just plain going in the wrong direction and seems to be intent on losing my business. Fios now offers 10 tuner whole home DVRs. That could pretty much replace my 2 Roamio Pros right now. Yes, the storage is less, but I can absolutely live with it. And I'd never have to worry about "in warranty". Tivo simply can't seem to read the writing that's been on the wall for years. I predicted several years ago that Tivo would be forced to eventually either sell their technology or really just concentrate on software for MSOs. It sure seems like they are driving hard down that road, as their retail efforts - to me - have been less than pathetic.


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## T Man (Jan 27, 2017)

Two ways to look at it...
1. Do you plan on cutting the cord after your Tivo dies? Thought about it, and probably not. There's no option that is satisfactory. I pay $50/mo for service, and most channels (no premiums). DTV now is $35 --- why would I buy that?
2. If your Tivo dies, do you want to go to the alternative? Umm, no. I refuse to do cable DVRs, and I dont want Directv, where the price will be jacked after 2 years. 

I havent really had any guide issues, but I also pad my recordings by default. I have more than recouped my investment of a lifetime Roamio Plus & mini (only been 2 years). The price obviously must be right to get another Tivo - I will only consider an all-in plan, and I'm not paying $1000 for a Bolt+.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Ask me in a few years when I may have a reason to replace the two I currently use.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

People who say they "refuse to do cable DVRs" make me scratch my head. Tivo is a product. I'm no more "loyal" to them than they are to me. It's business. I don't care who is behind the label. So what is the reason for categorically refusing to even consider anything other than Tivo? As I said, I have 2 of the former top of the line (Roamio Pro) units, 4 minis, and an HD - all on lifetime. But if Tivo no longer offers a value proposition that makes sense, they're gone. This isn't touchy feely socialism. It's a consumer product and service, which they have without a shadow of a doubt degraded in terms of quality. Yes, they have more gadgets. No, they are not as reliable. Padding doesn't fix when their absolutely abhorrent Rovi guide data is just plain wrong - and yet TMS (who they used to use, and who Fios uses) is right. Every single time that I've found systemic errors in the Tivo guides, guess what? The Verizon DVR (free for life on my account) that I have has been correct - every - single - time.


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## T Man (Jan 27, 2017)

Sorry buddy, this isnt about touchy feely socialism. I've already determined in my head that the Charter DVR, unless improved significantly with usability, cost, etc will not be entertained. Would rather switch providers (Uverse and DTV are way ahead). One can refuse the cable DVR when other options (not JUST tivo) exist on the market already.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I voted 'no' because of the Rovi guide data fiasco. After five months now it's still full of errors and ridiculous descriptions that are stupidly truncated and repeat the actors twice. And then there are the one-passes that can't be made to work properly because of the poor guide data.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Probably. The Rovi guide, while there have been a few glitches, has mostly worked for me. And I'm used to the TiVo interface. So despite some changes along the way that annoy me a little (around wishlists and one passes) I'm still reasonably happy with my TiVo.

So if my Romeo dies (or TiVo comes up with something substantially better) and I'm still on cable/FIOS I'll most likely pick up another TiVo. After all I'm on my 5th generation of TiVos -- wouldn't have guessed that when I got my first DirecTV-TiVo, the 1st gen Sony T-60, back even before they enabled its 2nd tuner.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> Ask me in a few years when I may have a reason to replace the two I currently use.


That is actually the way I feel. It is easy to say I will or will not buy another TiVo when there is no reason to make the decision now. It becomes a little different when you have to make that decision. And lets be honest if someone needs a new DVR at some point in the future, what is going on now will not matter, what will matter is what is going on then.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I voted yes because the alternative, the Charter DVR, is sooooo much worse! Max 2 tuners, no whole home, puny storage, horrible UI. I guess I could consider switching to DirecTV or Dish instead, but then I'd also have to switch internet providers (or pay more) so that's not really ideal either.

According to a TiVo employee I talked to a couple weeks ago, Charter markets are their best markets because Charter's offering is so horrible.


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## OmeneX (Jul 2, 2016)

Voted yes. The family hasn't complained much about any TiVo related problems outside of a few reboots. Also, I have recently bought additional Mini's and don't want those purchases to go to waste. It would take a revolutionary product *right now* for me to not buy a replacement TiVo if my current one died. Though, I am keeping an eye out since I am slightly unsure about TiVo's long term future.

Ask this question later on - then maybe the answer would be different.


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## bbrown9 (Mar 12, 2011)

If they fix the issues with the guide data before my current TiVo is no longer useable and if I can still get FIOS service on a TiVo at that point in time, I'll consider it. If they don't fix the guide data, then I'll probably switch to a FIOS DVR. From what I hear they aren't that bad and they use gracenote so the guide data is better.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

T Man said:


> Sorry buddy, this isnt about touchy feely socialism. I've already determined in my head that the Charter DVR, unless improved significantly with usability, cost, etc will not be entertained. Would rather switch providers (Uverse and DTV are way ahead). One can refuse the cable DVR when other options (not JUST tivo) exist on the market already.


Ok, then - you're changing your answer. You meant to say that you wouldn't do the Charter DVR that exists today. Not that you "refuse to do cable DVRs". The former makes perfect sense to me if you feel it's that bad. The latter insinuates that you simply wouldn't consider a DVR from an MSO regardless of its function and feature set. I agree that if for example Verizon only had the old 2 tuner DVR that I still have here for free, I wouldn't switch to their stuff either. However, in the same amount of time that Tivo went from the Roamio to the Bolt, Verizon went from 2 tuner DVRs to 10 tuner whole home DVRs. And, if I stream their content through my Verizon phone, it's free data. And I get true VoD, which isn't half bad.

That's the reason I made the "touchy feely socialism" comment. If it's just "because" instead of looking at the options and deciding, well then.... Based on your clarification, it makes sense.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

bbrown9 said:


> If they fix the issues with the guide data before my current TiVo is no longer useable and if I can still get FIOS service on a TiVo at that point in time, I'll consider it. If they don't fix the guide data, then I'll probably switch to a FIOS DVR. From what I hear they aren't that bad and they use gracenote so the guide data is better.


I can say first hand - the Verizon DVR guide data IS leaps and bounds better than Tivo/Rovi. I have 2 Roamio Pros, 4 minis, an HD, and a free older Verizon 2 tuner DVR. In virtually every single case where I've had problems with the Tivo guide, the Fios DVR has been correct.

Personally, I see no evidence whatsoever that there is even any intent to change the quality of the guide data. Rovi has been inferior to Gracenote for years in terms of quality. They seem to feel that their product is "good enough" They bought Tivo (though they retained the Tivo name - it was an acquisition of Tivo by Rovi). They're calling the shots. I have zero optimism that things will get demonstrably better.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

I voted yes. So far for the shows that we record, we have not been impacted by the Rovi Guide data change (although I could have my first impact with upcoming recordings for The Expanse and The Magicians which have a different SeriesID but even if that's not fixed it wouldn't change my answer at this time). Besides an old version of Windows Media Center, are there any other products that allow you to download and upload shows and support CableCARDs and recording of DRM-protected channels?

Scott


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

I think it goes way beyond whether Tivo owners would buy another. To the extent the anemic Tivo marketplace has existed at all, the impetus has been prior Tivo owners proselytizing. That fervor is gone.

In my case I will always want a functioning Tivo model HD for its unique capabilities for myself and family/friends and will probably always be in the market for used ones as eventual replacements. But as far as the Roamios et al, while I might or might not replace them, I would never again go out of my way to recommend one.

Rovi has taken a great-become-OK product line and turned it to marginally worth it at all.


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## Peter G (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes absolutely. I recently signed up for cable (Charter) after about 3 years of OTA only, using Tivo Roamio basic. The monthly cost for 2 cable boxes was $7 each. This does not include any DVR or "Whole Home" function. The Charter remotes function in IR only, and my main living room TV is connected via HDMI cable to an out of site location where the box needs to go. No chance to place the cable box in a line of sight location. After several attempts to work around this issue (IR to RF repeater or IR over HDMI) and almost getting a divorce, I thew in the towel on Charter boxes and purchased a new Bolt. Instantly solved the problem and I much prefer the TiVo guide and interface, even with Rovi data. Wife is happy, divorce avoided. The Bolt was a refurbished unit at about $150, and the monthly charge of $15 is just a bit more than the $14 reduction in the cable bill. Plus with Minis (4) I have equivalent of whole home DVR and 5 TV's hooked up. Would have cost maybe $30 per month for lesser functionality from Charter. So TiVo is a much better solution than cable equipment, at lower monthly cost. 

I had already set up MoCA network and 4 minis prior to the cable hookup. If starting from new my cost to set up may have been steep but I alreadywoned most of the necessary equipment. Bottom line the TiVo system works well through out the house.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

I've always assumed that our new Bolt would be our last traditional cable DVR. Other than that I can't answer the question because I don't know what TiVo will offer or what the media landscape will look like by the time I would be replacing it.


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## PatEllis15 (Mar 3, 2010)

I think so... I don't like renting equipment. My 2 TiVo's have been rock solid. My Series 2 is still functional 15 years after purchase. The issue I have right now is the exorbitant cost. I'm due for an upgrade though. I have an original Premiere... only 2 tuners. I can't use a Tivo Mini with it. With the multi room discount my Premiere came out to just $500. With the $2.50 credit I get from Comcast for using my own equipment, my cost per month with the Premier is only $3.50.

The Cost for a Bolt + (I'm aching for those extra tuners, and the ability to set up a couple of Mini's in the house) is $1050. I'd have to run it for more than 14 years to get it down to that same monthly cost. Will Rovi still support a Bolt + in 14 years?


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I wonder how much of this is determined by cable as vs. OTA use.

So much of the complaint I see justifiably centers on the Guide data (although there is justifiable complaint on the recent software update, leading to the accessibility options buttons and old/new box show transfers issues, since handled, and the on-going audio and My Shows/left panel issues--did I miss something else?).

On the OTA side, I haven't seen the Guide data issue as, to coin a phrase, "yuuuuge"--in the past few months, I've had a show misidentified for 2 days (since corrected), a 3-show/2-day skating competition not marked as a series, a show seemingly marked with a 0h0m length, a television special not added to the Guide within the day (other DVRs were able to do so), and, seemingly, an uptake in the use of generic descriptions (although I don't know what other DVR guides were showing). On the flip side, I have 4 tuners to use, SkipMode (dang, I'm getting dependent on that--never thought I would care), ability to transfer shows to/from the box, streaming capability, a nice UI, nice and easily expandable storage, and all the "basic" TiVo goodies, without having to think about it all much.

Cable users have the option of a cableco box (albeit with monthly fees), some of which seem quite nice. On the OTA side, there also are alternatives, but they don't seem to be at the level of a TiVo.

Assuming the price is good, I'd repeat going and continuing with TiVo, absent something better coming along. And for the OTA crowd (or the cableco crowd willing to mod a TiVo box by adding a cable card bracket), the Roamio OTA with its included lifetime can make it attractive, especially when Amazon.com prices have come down (let alone special deals, like last Nov./Dec.'s White Sale on Roamio OTA reburbs, a steal of a deal, it seems to me).

Please note: none of this excuses TiVo's Guide data issues. None. That simply needs to be fixed (and the basic errors would seem to be low-hanging fruit--I can't understand why TiVo is having such a problem with that).


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

At least for me -- I'm an OTA user and I don't see any future TiVo purchases from me unless something changes pretty dramatically. We're starting to use Plex more for everything. It has wife-acceptance. We may go with a Plex DVR for easy whole-home and remote viewing usage as well as easy archive options. Hell, for her daily chat shows, an mstar-based box would be fine. We're waiting to see what (if anything) comes out from items like the phillips box or Tablo-pending box. Maybe the Mavrik is unique enough to pique my interest. If HDHomerun ever moved out of the world's longest beta test - it might be interesting. Once a clearer picture of those offerings becomes available, I see us possibly selling the TiVo's which would finance any network tuner or dedicated Plex server purchases this summer.

This, of course, assumes there will be any new TiVo devices in the future. There is a good chance that as traditional DVR's begin to change, there will be more 'powered by TiVo' devices instead. Whether this means a full TiVo experience -- or simply supplying those boxes with Guide data -- is yet to be seen. I could easily see Rovi (under the TiVo name) simply providing listings and TiVo transitioning in maybe 5 years to a nearly listings-only focused company - letting other companies interested in hardware build whatever boxes they want.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I fully expect to get another TiVo. Since it would be more expensive for me to go with a cable company solution(not to mention the crappy UI from FIOS/Comcast).

And I can't cut the cord. Because if I did, it would cost me two to three times more each month to watch the same content that I currently watch with my FiOS Ultimate HD subscription.

Fortunately for me, I have rarely run into any guide issues with my 200+ Season Passes.
Although most recently I see there was an issue with the show, "Being Mary Jane". I record it for my GF and the last couple of weeks they had generic descriptions so my Bolt was recording every episode. Since I don't watch it, I had no way to know what are the correct episodes to give to my GF.

It looks like the issue was finally corrected with next weeks recordings. Although the guide data time was off for some of those shows. Since some had weird start times like x:57. But the guide had it starting at the hour. So hopefully the guide data gets updated to reflect the correct start time.


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## powrcow (Sep 27, 2010)

I answered yes.

For me, a Cox DVR over the same 10 year period I owned my two TiVos would have cost about $3,000. The two TiVos (lifetimed both and sold the first over Ebay) cost just over $1,000.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

with onepass being useless since the Rovi merger, and tivo desktop dead I'm not seeing the value of a lifetime sub any more


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Couldn't say either way.

The programs I watch sometimes have annoying data issues, but it's not altogether deal-breaking.

I am already set for a while with my current hardware. I don't know what the TV landscape is going to be like when this issue actually comes up. Most importantly, the whole cablecard situation adds a thick layer of uncertainty.

I couldn't give a resounding yes unless Tivo makes something so cool and useful it could potentially dictate my MSO choice if it had to. (Due to something like Verizon switching to IP, etc)


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## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

I haven't any any issues with guide data.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I didn't vote because I don't currently own a Tivo. I have literally owned dozens of them starting with the original Philips models, DirecTV models, and early S3 digital cable models. I eventually switched to a HTPC with both OTA and cablecard tuners. I started off using BeyondTV for OTA using XP and eventually migrated to Windows 7 with WMC. I like the fact that I can mix and match both OTA and cablecard tuners in a single box rather than having to own multiple Tivos for the same capability. That alone will probably keep me from ever buying another Tivo. Microsoft switched their guide provider to Rovi before Tivo did so I used to feel the same pain that current Tivo owners suffer. Fortunately, along came EPG123 with the ability to use guide data from Schedules Direct. It also allows me to get guide data out as far as 30 days and include season and episode data to the show info. I recently upgraded to a 4K TV and also purchased a Roku Premiere+ and a Nvidia Shield. I have a newfound respect for streaming services. I don't believe Tivo supports UHD streaming with HDR yet so that is just another reason why you won't find one in my home theater.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

So, since it applies to this, I just got off the phone from Tivo. They called me in response to some of the guide issues I've been complaining about and reporting since early October. A couple days ago, I requested a call back.

They've got nothing. When I gave clear examples of defects and errors resulting in the products core purpose not functioning reliably (such as recently the inability of 1P to properly pick up some content) all they wanted to do was concentrate on each program, or episode. There was no willingness or even acknowledgement that the problem is systemic and based on Rovi as opposed to Gracenote (not surprising, since Rovi acquired Tivo and then adopted the Tivo brand name). I'm frankly of the opinion that the service has dropped to the extent that those of us having paid for lifetime should truly consider class action. The core purpose of the product has been compromised. I told them as such, and asked them to pass along that message, as I'm unwilling to continue spending hours reporting error after error. I've been doing that with Tivo Metadata Support (email coming from DATA client services) for months. With not the slightest bit of improvement.

Considering Rovi was poor prior to their acquisition of Tivo, I hardly see any room for optimism here, and can't fathom sinking another single penny into Tivo. To be honest, I do plan to take a look to see what options there are, as again - I believe Tivo has now put themselves in a position where they are legally vulnerable.


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## miadlor (Sep 4, 2003)

www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/baig/2017/01/27/why-broke-up-tivo-after-so-many-years/97139620/

Premiere, really?


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## velouria28 (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm still rocking a Premiere. Why not? Plus I get to use the simple uncluttered SD menu.


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## miadlor (Sep 4, 2003)

velouria28 said:


> I'm still rocking a Premiere. Why not? Plus I get to use the simple uncluttered SD menu.


Slow and no commercial skip.
To each his own I guess.


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## phox_mulder (Feb 23, 2006)

My OLED S3 is most likely not long for this world. If I wasn't able to cope with just 12 tuners (1 Roamio Basic, 2 OTA's) I'd most likely get another.


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## sinanju (Jan 3, 2005)

I answered "No". At this point, the data is so crap that it's more work to manage than an old VCR. I'm lucky that I have cable competition in my neighborhood... I could go with a Verizon or Comcast DVR. But, TiVo... no. The data is bad, service is all but completely unresponsive, and TiVo shows no interest in getting better.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I've had no issues with the Rovi data. If my Roamio were to die I would definitely get a Bolt+.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

atmuscarella said:


> I didn't answer your survey because the answer is "depends". Being OTA and not a sports fan I really don't have any issues with the Guide data.


If you think that the program data problems don't apply to non-sports OTA, you are sadly mistaken.


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## CybrFyre (Mar 25, 2008)

I have seen some glitches w Rovi data, and those so far have been no worse than glitches I had previously seen w Gracenote data.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> If you think that the program data problems don't apply to non-sports OTA, you are sadly mistaken.


But from what I can tell, the OTA crowd has been having much less an issue. Either that or, the cable crowd just complains more.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Mikeguy said:


> But from what I can tell, the OTA crowd has been having much less an issue. Either that or, the cable crowd just complains more.


More channels = more errors.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

The ability to transfer recordings between a TiVo and a PC is very important to me. If that goes away, I will have to rethink.

To answer the question though, I would not buy another TiVo unless they fix the data problems, and I see no evidence that they are addressing the root causes, just *maybe* fixing specific errors as they are reported.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> If you think that the program data problems don't apply to non-sports OTA, you are sadly mistaken.


As far as I can tell I would have had issues with sports the same as cable people were having. Regarding the rest of it, I had 2 season passes I had to redo back when the conversion happened. Other than that the programing I want recorded has recorded without any input from me (maybe 30 hours per week between my Roamio & Bolt). If I wasn't here reading these forums I wouldn't even know there were issues. My Brother is OTA in rural MN and has a Roamio OTA I asked him if he was having any issues with the guide data and he didn't know what I was talking about (but to be honest I don't think he watches much TV). I know lots of people have and are still having issues, but that doesn't mean we all are.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

I guess you didn't have a 1P for "Masterpiece" or "Masterpiece Mystery". Or "Once Upon a Time".


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> More channels = more errors.


Yep, at least part of my point.


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

I didn't vote, but I would "likely" buy another TiVo. I'm OTA only (+ streaming) and TiVo has made the OTA experience much better for our household over the years. I doubt we would have remained satisfied otherwise and would have likely gone back to pay TV of some variety without TiVo. That said I am shaken by repeated software glitches, guide issues, and reliability and it has shaken my faith in TiVo although I feel my issues have been largely minor. Bottom line though is you want to "set it and forget it" and not have to have a second thought as to if you shows are going to be recorded. If TiVo or someone else makes a device that does a good job of integrating OTA and some of the streaming services, that would definitely interest me. Dishes "Air TV" device is an interesting step in that direction.


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## docfruitbat (Apr 1, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> That is actually the way I feel. It is easy to say I will or will not buy another TiVo when there is no reason to make the decision now. It becomes a little different when you have to make that decision. And lets be honest if someone needs a new DVR at some point in the future, what is going on now will not matter, what will matter is what is going on then.


Very pragmatic and I completely agree with you and JoeKustra. Nothing is going to change for the immediate future but when it does it will be a completely different proposition. No point in fretting over it right now.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> Ok, then - you're changing your answer. You meant to say that you wouldn't do the Charter DVR that exists today. Not that you "refuse to do cable DVRs". The former makes perfect sense to me if you feel it's that bad. The latter insinuates that you simply wouldn't consider a DVR from an MSO regardless of its function and feature set.


Yeah, unless you're just opposed to renting the box, the logic turns circular/backwards when you're dealing with ABB or RCN where their rental DVR IS a TiVo Roamio T6.

Comcast's X1 isn't terrible, but it's definitely not TiVo either. It also seems click-heavy and buggy to me.

I see no reason to buy a new TiVo as long as CableCard (my Premiere XL4) or ATSC 1.0 (my Roamio OTA) is around. If ATSC 3.0 ever ends up actually happening, then I would consider buying a new TiVo with ASTC 3.0, depending on what other DVR options are on the market at that point.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

I've had Tivo off and on since August 2000. It's definitely my longest electronic brand loyalty. I just don't see any reason for a new one. They finally stepped up the hardware but with the lousy guide data it just doesn't make sense. So long Tivo.....


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## BadMouth (Mar 1, 2016)

I only have 17 OTA channels and get a lot more out of them by having the TiVo. I also hate having to use multiple remotes, so having one remote control the TV power/volume and also access streaming content is big for me. I love my current TiVo setup.

I avoid as many recurring bills as possible, so there must be an option for lifetime service or I'm not buying. 

I just got an offer in the mail from sling TV for $20 month. At that price I'm seriously considering dropping Netflix and reducing some other service in favor of adding sling.
Sling is coming out with a box that combines OTA and their channels into one on screen guide. If that works well and there is no recurring fee for the guide data, then I could see myself switching.

What my current TiVo gives me is the cable box experience with OTA channels plus some apps without having to use multiple devices or juggle remotes. If they move away from that to something that looks more like current live TV streaming apps, I'll have no use for them.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I'm disappointed in the Guide Data, but it's not deal-breaker bad at this point...most of the glitches resolve themselves before airtime. But I'm also perfectly happy with my Roamio Pro w/Lifetime, so it will be a long time before it becomes an issue, and who knows what will be going on by then? So it's "None of the above" for me at this point.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lpwcomp said:


> The ability to transfer recordings between a TiVo and a PC is very important to me. If that goes away, I will have to rethink.
> 
> To answer the question though, I would not buy another TiVo unless they fix the data problems, and I see no evidence that they are addressing the root causes, just *maybe* fixing specific errors as they are reported.


That's the beauty of recording shows with WMC or other PC-based DVR app. Everything is already on a PC. Granted, the shows are either in wtv or dvr-ms format if you recorded them with WMC, but they're easily converted to other formats. VideoReDo allows you to edit and convert them directly. You can right-click on a wtv file and convert it to dvr-ms for playback on an older Windows OS. While I've never actually done it, I believe you can transfer shows recorded on a PC to a Tivo once they've been converted to a format the Tivo will recognize.


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## mlsnyc (Dec 3, 2009)

I'd prefer to stay with TiVo for as long as I can but it will depend on what the generation after the Bolt offers and CableCard support at that point. So neither a yes nor a no.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

miadlor said:


> www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/baig/2017/01/27/why-broke-up-tivo-after-so-many-years/97139620/
> 
> Premiere, really?


Yes I read that article earlier this morning. It seemed like the writer had no clue what he was doing.


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## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

Absolutely I'll stick with TiVo so long as the UIs of cable and DirecTV DVRs remain abysmal. Plus, I begrudge giving cable companies even a nickel more than I have to, particularly every single month where there's a never-ending stream of rate increases. With TiVo outright device purchases and lifetime service, I can tell the cable and satellite companies to go screw themselves.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> Ask me in a few years when I may have a reason to replace the two I currently use.


Ditto, but I only have one Roamio and three Minis.

Yes, the current guide data and bug issues with 20.6.3 suck. But my setup is so far superior and cheaper than what Comcast has to offer. That could very well change when Cablecards go away.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

tivoknucklehead said:


> with onepass being useless since the Rovi merger, and tivo desktop dead I'm not seeing the value of a lifetime sub any more


1Ps are absolutely not useless after the merger. This is a gross exaggeration.

You can, however, say that searches and streaming 1Ps are mostly useless and be correct.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

slowbiscuit said:


> 1Ps are absolutely not useless after the merger. This is a gross exaggeration.
> 
> You can, however, say that searches and streaming 1Ps are mostly useless and be correct.


I concur. I have two Roamio and four Mini. But my use of streaming with a TiVo has been replaced by my Blu-ray, TV and Roku. Just when I learned how to use the 1P features with Amazon it broke.

I have about the same incentive to replace my TiVo boxes as I have for getting a 4k TV. Maybe by the time there is enough content for me there will be a better TiVo anyhow. Things change. That's a constant.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> 1Ps are absolutely not useless after the merger. This is a gross exaggeration.
> 
> You can, however, say that searches and streaming 1Ps are mostly useless and be correct.


I agree that 1Ps are not absolutely useless.

However, I do feel that 1Ps are simply no longer reliable. Further, I've factually demonstrated that 1Ps are less reliable than the equivalent of "season passes" on the Fios DVR. This isn't really due to legacy Tivo functionality, but due to the IMHO totally unreliable Rovi data.

Then, when you add in the utterly preposterous Tivo architecture with overwhelmingly unnecessary and inappropriate dependency on their hosted systems, resulting in the BSCs, I find it impossible to consider any new Tivo spend.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> 1Ps are absolutely not useless after the merger. This is a gross exaggeration.
> 
> You can, however, say that searches and streaming 1Ps are mostly useless and be correct.


I'm making a distinction between one pass and season pass. We are back at season pass functionality unless you have a onepass that was created before the Rovi merger


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

tivoknucklehead said:


> I'm making a distinction between one pass and season pass. We are back at season pass functionality unless you have a onepass that was created before the Rovi merger


No, we're worse off than with season pass functionality. Frankly, season pass didn't offer as many choices, but it was at least pretty reliable. Now with the bad data, we have "no pass".


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

SullyND said:


> I've had no issues with the Rovi data. If my Roamio were to die I would definitely get a Bolt+.


Then you could deal with both bad guide data and bad HDMI/HDCP issues. At least with a Roamio, you can use the component output and avoid all the HDMI problems .


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm at a technology gap. Things appear to be turning 4k and all my tech is at 1080. I'm waiting to see where 4k goes. I'm at an age where I'm not so interested and also no able to afford to keep up with a tech race. 4k turning into 8k or where ever else it may go. This includes TiVo as well as Screens (HDTV's) BluRay players and receivers, speakers even that are finally making they're way to wireless but at what cost.. That's another conversations. Everything seems to be changing, my systems are rather high end or so I kid myself into thinking and not being rich it has taken me most of my life to obtain what I have which has included lots of wheeling and dealing, spending lots of cash or trading this for that just to get where I am and now the tech is changing gears. OLED, 4K content and needing all new equipment just to view it.
I'm gonna hang tight, enjoy what I have and see where things go, ROVI has not impressed me one bit and I feel TiVo is falling down a rabbit hole from where it may never been seen again. 
All four of my TiVo's are lifetime. If tv content stabilizes I may sell one or two to keep up with content and buy another TiVo but no time soon.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> No, we're worse off than with season pass functionality. Frankly, season pass didn't offer as many choices, but it was at least pretty reliable. Now with the bad data, we have "no pass".


What issues are you having? I have over two hundred One Passes. While I do run into an issue from time to time. It is nowhere near the norm. The most recent issue I ran into was with a show I record for my GF. But prior to that, it's been a month or two since I ran into an issue with a recording from my One Passes.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> What issues are you having? I have over two hundred One Passes. While I do run into an issue from time to time. It is nowhere near the norm. The most recent issue I ran into was with a show I record for my GF. But prior to that, it's been a month or two since I ran into an issue with a recording from my One Passes.


I'll try to list them, but it's the same issues that many others are having. I run into issues at least once or twice a week - usually more frequently. The bottom line is that the guide data is junk. Garbage. Trash. Inaccurate. Unreliable. Wrong.

I could go on.

So for example, here are some 1P that have simply failed - and this is just VERY recently.

The show "Six" on the history channel. 1P recorded nothing. Whatsoever. Even though it's set to record "everything".

The show "Beyond". Similar behavior.

The AFC Wild Card Game that Tivo (Rovi) never updated the new time slot - even though the NFL and the networks officially delayed it more than 2 days in advance.

Tonight, Counting Cars - new episodes? Not for Tivo. No recording.

I could go on and on. How about "An NFL Life". No data whatsoever - no series, no episode, no description.

Or, where 1P shows no upcoming episodes, yet search finds multiple?

Like I said, I could go on and on.

And yes, all boxes are getting regular updates. Yes, I've rebooted boxes. Yes, I've forced updates.

Bluntly - the guide data is absolute junk.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

And, btw, I see the same exact behavioral issues with both of my Roamio Pros, and obviously all of my minis. 

And more to the point - in each and every single instance above, as well as every other single instance not mentioned, Verizon.net and my free Verizon DVR have been perfect. Not even one single time of the more than 50 that I've sent via the form or via email to Tivo Metadata Support (I've encountered way more, but an frankly just tired of working for free for Tivo) have been incorrect on the Verizon DVR. Not one.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Oh, should probably mention the show "Mars" on National Geographic. 1P recorded the 1st 3 episodes. Then never recorded anything else. That's just another type of error or failure that Tivos seem to like doing since moving to Rovi.

While other issues such as BSC, etc have never made me particularly fond of Tivo in recent times, all of this follows the Rovi deal.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> I'll try to list them, but it's the same issues that many others are having. I run into issues at least once or twice a week - usually more frequently. The bottom line is that the guide data is junk. Garbage. Trash. Inaccurate. Unreliable. Wrong.
> 
> I could go on.
> 
> ...


I don't watch most of those. But I do record the NFL games. I just checked and I have a recording for the AFC wildcard game that began and ended properly. But I also have wishlists setup for the NFL that record the Redskins and all the national games broadcast. So one of the wishlists probably picked it up to record.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Oh, should probably mention the show "Mars" on National Geographic. 1P recorded the 1st 3 episodes. Then never recorded anything else. That's just another type of error or failure that Tivos seem to like doing since moving to Rovi.
> 
> While other issues such as BSC, etc have never made me particularly fond of Tivo in recent times, all of this follows the Rovi deal.


Mars was a show I set up to record but never watched it. I just looked and only have four recordings for it. So that one definitely screwed up on me. I only see recordings from November for it. And I see there should be six episodes. With only three that were broadcast in November. So one of my recordings must be a duplicate.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

aaronwt said:


> I don't watch most of those. But I do record the NFL games. I just checked and I have a recording for the AFC wildcard game that began and ended properly. But I also have wishlists setup for the NFL that record the Redskins and all the national games broadcast. So one of the wishlists probably picked it up to record.


Which AFC wildcard game? Pittsburgh - Kansas City? I force updated mine. The Verizon DVR had correct data for the weather delayed game (again, it was delayed 2 days in advance) more than a full day ahead. My Tivos did their connection early Sunday morning. The game delay was still not there. I forced connections 3 times, and finally at around 3pm, the guide had the update. Had I not forced multiple network connections, it would never have recorded.

Again, these are just a very very small selection of the constant issues that plague this destroyed system now. Tivo simply has no relevant value proposition now at least for me. It's only still here because it's paid for, and even though I'm not getting what I paid (a lot) for, I will babysit it for a while. At some point either a Roamio will die and I'll sell everything else and leave Tivo, or I'll get fed up with babysitting this system and dump everything. I am already taking a look at the resale value of my Tivo stuff. If the price was right, I'd dump it all today.


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

On Demand is no replacement. Commercials and streaming quality are both pretty bad. Much of the time you can't even skip forward.

However, Rovi Guide sucks. I can't find programs very far out anymore, many shows are wrong, and some things either don't record or record too often because of bad guide data. Also live sports have issues if they change.

I'm uncertain if I'll buy more Tivos when my Lifetime Premieres become obsolete.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

While I certainly preferred the guide data from Gracenote to Rovi, that changeover isn't the main reason why I doubt I'd ever buy another TiVo. It's simply that so much of my viewing has shifted to streaming. I do still use my TiVo for OTA recording but not a whole lot. (I could honestly get by with a really simple single OTA tuner with manual time-and-channel-based recordings that self-label using PSIP data.) 

In the past, I really wanted a single box/input to handle everything I needed but since getting a new TV in Nov., which switches inputs really quickly, it's not that big a deal. Having everything in one box would still be ideal, but I'm OK for now with using the TV's internal apps for Hulu, Netflix, Amazon, VUDU and YouTube; my Apple TV 3 for Showtime, HBO, PBS and CBS News apps; and the TiVo for OTA TV recordings.

I'm keeping my eye on how things develop with the Nvidia Shield Android TV (which finally now has the Amazon Video app) and its promised support for OTA tuners with DVR functionality. Once that becomes available, I may well sell my Roamio OTA with lifetime, Apple TV 3 and Chromecast, which together will hopefully bring more than enough to buy a new Shield plus OTA tuner. We'll see.


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## TeamPace (Oct 23, 2013)

BadMouth said:


> I only have 17 OTA channels and get a lot more out of them by having the TiVo....
> 
> Sling is coming out with a box that combines OTA and their streaming channels into one on screen guide. If that works well and there is no recurring fee for the guide data, then I could see myself switching.


That device, Air TV Player, which combines OTA & Sling is definitely an interesting product. But my understanding is there is currently no option for recording OTA. That is kind of a deal killer for me. I do hope to see more development of this type of device. And while I don't see much hope of TiVo working to create such a device, it would be nice if they did. There is likely more incentive for the streaming service companies such as Direct TV to create or work with someone to create such devices.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

45% of respondents would not buy another TiVo (as of this post's time). How do we interpret this?

Option 1: It's devastating news for TiVo. Any reasonable product will not have such a low favorability rating.
Sub-option 1a: It's mostly because of the poor Rovi guide data.

Option 2: It just means this forum attracts a lot of people who have had trouble with their TiVo, and a lot of people who are geeky and tend to be hyper-critical about all tech gadgets.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

dlfl said:


> 45% of respondents would not buy another TiVo (as of this post's time). How do we interpret this?
> 
> Option 1: It's devastating news for TiVo. Any reasonable product will not have such a low favorability rating.
> Sub-option 1a: It's mostly because of the poor Rovi guide data.
> ...


Given that historically, this forum is filled with hard core Tivo enthusiasts - and it wasn't long ago that saying anything critical of Tivo was met with strong resistance....

I'd bet big money that it's option 1a, but that really means Option 1. Poor Rovi guide data undermines the central and core purpose of the Tivo, so unless it's permanently corrected, the entire value proposition of Tivo is destroyed.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I wonder what would happen to the survey if there was an entry for "I don't know".


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

I don't know


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## b_scott (Nov 27, 2006)

dlfl said:


> Option 2: It just means this forum attracts a lot of people who have had trouble with their TiVo, and a lot of people who are geeky and tend to be hyper-critical about all tech gadgets.


Maybe, but Tivo is a niche product as it is.


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## NickTheGreat (Aug 31, 2015)

I love my TiVo and have very few problems with it. (knock on wood)

I want to cut the cord in the worst way, but want NCAA sports. So until that is an option I will not. 

Hopefully my TiVo's last until that point in time.


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## sbillard (Sep 17, 2014)

mr.unnatural said:


> That's the beauty of recording shows with WMC or other PC-based DVR app.


What other PC based DVR software is there besides WMC? WMC is no longer an option for me because of it does not work on more recent OSs. I have been watching the SiliconDust saga, but a product that is still in beta for a year is not a confidence builder. Besides which last I checked it did not do DRM content and my cable provider thoughtfully marks everything as protected.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I've drifted away from Tivo some time ago. I had, and loved either a Tivo or a DirecTivo for over a decade. When my last DirecTivo met its end from electrical issues, D replaced it with their non-Tivo DVR, and it didn't suck. Neither did the Google Fiber DVR when I switched from Direct. The TWC DVR I got when I moved to a house that didn't have Google Fiber did suck, but it was GoodEnough (tm) and both cheaper and easier than getting a Tivo. Also, these days I watch a lot of stuff streaming, and during the winter & summer breaks, my watching will be almost all streaming.


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## sharkster (Jul 3, 2004)

JoeKustra said:


> I wonder what would happen to the survey if there was an entry for "I don't know".


Yeah, I was pretty much in the 'I'm not sure at this point' camp.


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## eherberg (Feb 17, 2011)

dlfl said:


> Option 2: It just means this forum attracts a lot of people who have had trouble with their TiVo, and a lot of people who are geeky and tend to be hyper-critical about all tech gadgets.


I think it's clearly option 2. Plus - if you compare survey responses against the average number of people online in the forum at any one time, it's also a pretty low response rate.

Forum visitors in general (and this one in particular) attract a subset of users and are not indicative of typical users. I answered 'No' - but it was because for the things I find important, I now find I can do them easier with other options available to me. Being able to send my programs (with resume capability) to cheap streaming boxes like Roku's in other rooms has turned out to be an easier method and the family has naturally moved to it. Being able to pull recordings for archival is now being done by other methods. Am I a typical user in those regards? Nope. Probably not even typical of regular users of these forums. But with so many unknowns as to future devices from TiVo (and others) - I'm willing to wait until the summer or fall months to get a better idea of what is really coming and the capabilities thereof -- both for TiVo as well as competitors in this niche market.

My guide problems as an OTA user aren't the same as other users. My problem is not so much with the content. Rather, it is more that 1/2 of the stations in my state (and all of Manitoba) are now included in my channel list. Even after detailed lineup correction forms - all that has happened is a movement of a roughly 300 mile radius that shifted further north and east. Simply replacing some stations that I don't receive with other stations I still don't receive. This was quite a shock initially on changeover from the previous channel list which did a pretty good job of listing the stations I actually *can* receive. It appears this experience is not typical. And even those people with Guide problems for content may be hyper-critical in their analysis. Looking at other forums for products that use Rovi data, you don't see a word about it. Hell - the DVR+ has hundreds of pages of posts without a single mention (and I consider the DVR+ to be only _slightly_ above a cheap iView box in functionality and desirability). I suspect that Rovi may simply be weathering the storm while waiting for this subset to just die down. I don't even think public social media shaming has any real value - as most of the time when I see people doing it on other products, my first instinct is not to shift my opinion of the actual company -- it's to wonder why people are still using a product that clearly they are so unhappy with. Plus - it's pretty easy to spot the perpetual social media complainers.

As a company, TiVo may need to focus on the next-gen if they are really concerned about future growth. I am in the final process of assisting somebody many years my junior in a cord cutting transition. This person was not at all interested in a TiVo based scheme when I presented it. It was met with an attitude that was similar to the attitude I have towards my parent's and their insistence on still using VCR's. My friend and his kids are now firmly in a streaming-based world and prefer a poster-based system UI system. In fact, the only thing he wanted from an OTA recorder was the ability to pause live TV and have the ability to only occasionally record. For him, he went with the Mediasonic box (as it also works with Voice on his Xbox One). TiVo just simply seemed long-in-the-tooth and overkill in expense for what he wanted OTA. Not typical for my needs (or certainly anyone here), but there are more like him ... and a lot more coming. If TiVo wants to attract them and seem cutting-edge (in their eyes), the Mavrik or the license to other Android companies may be their future. They would also need to embrace a UI system that will frankly make most users of this forum's heads spin nearly clean off in their howls of outrage and move away from a grid scheduler. These users simply don't care when something is on ... they simply think in terms of 'What do I want to watch".

So TiVo's concerns about the above results are probably minimal based on who their target audience is likely going to be in the next few years ... as well as a consideration of how 'typical' those user responses in all reality really are when compared to the total user base.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

Count me in the "it depends" camp. I have two TiVos active (Roamio and Premiere) plus another TiVoHD sitting in a box. They are great for now, but when they die who knows what technology is going to exist to fill the need.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> Given that historically, this forum is filled with hard core Tivo enthusiasts - and it wasn't long ago that saying anything critical of Tivo was met with strong resistance....
> 
> I'd bet big money that it's option 1a, but that really means Option 1. Poor Rovi guide data undermines the central and core purpose of the Tivo, so unless it's permanently corrected, the entire value proposition of Tivo is destroyed.


Or they have gotten so good that no one feel they need a new one. I don't see why I would replace my Premiere XL4 on cable, and that's two generations old. Forget about replacing my Roamio OTA unless ATSC 3.0 comes along. The guide data kind of sucks, but I still love the box and interface, and the Roamio OTA is good enough as long as ATSC 1.0 is what's being sent OTA.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Bigg said:


> Or they have gotten so good that no one feel they need a new one. I don't see why I would replace my Premiere XL4 on cable, and that's two generations old. Forget about replacing my Roamio OTA unless ATSC 3.0 comes along. The guide data kind of sucks, but I still love the box and interface, and the Roamio OTA is good enough as long as ATSC 1.0 is what's being sent OTA.


Actually, I think there's merit to this - but it's not good news.

By that I mean that there really isn't a compelling reason to get a new one if everything is working "properly" (as in, the way it worked prior to the Rovi acquisition). So then, when you add in the problems with guide data (which obviously affect OTA to a far lesser extent) and you have a situation where there really isn't a compelling reason to "upgrade", and if what you have stops working there really isn't a good reason to replace it with another that will have the same quality issues.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

eherberg said:


> I think it's clearly option 2. Plus - if you compare survey responses against the average number of people online in the forum at any one time, it's also a pretty low response rate.
> 
> Forum visitors in general (and this one in particular) attract a subset of users and are not indicative of typical users.


Actually, Tivo users are already in a very "niche" market position. When you look at retail - not MSO - subs, we are a very very very small subset of the market. And honestly, my own belief is that there is a far higher "percentage" of Tivo users that at least check in here than there is of forum users for the overwhelming majority of the market. And on top of that, if you look at the history of this place, it is very very uncommon and odd to see this kind of discussion even taking place. Just a year ago, even suggesting this poll would have been met with attacks on this site. So for that reason, I think the almost 50% answer of "NO" is frankly very surprising to me.



eherberg said:


> My guide problems as an OTA user aren't the same as other users.


You're right. You're not even seeing a fraction of the issues that many are seeing simply due to the vastly smaller dataset that you have to work with.



eherberg said:


> And even those people with Guide problems for content may be hyper-critical in their analysis.


Now I can't agree there. When 1Ps are routinely not working and people are missing content in a way and frequency that they never did probably since the introduction of the very first Tivo - I can't agree.



eherberg said:


> I suspect that Rovi may simply be weathering the storm while waiting for this subset to just die down.


I do think that Rovi is just waiting, and really has no intent (or frankly capability) to improve the quality of their new combined products.



eherberg said:


> my first instinct is not to shift my opinion of the actual company -- it's to wonder why people are still using a product that clearly they are so unhappy with.


Possibly because people have paid thousands of dollars for products with lifetime service, and stopping the use of it means effectively throwing all that money away and start paying money elsewhere. The "stickiest" people are those with large lifetime investments. I've got 7 units with lifetime in operation right now.



eherberg said:


> They would also need to embrace a UI system that will frankly make most users of this forum's heads spin nearly clean off in their howls of outrage and move away from a grid scheduler. These users simply don't care when something is on ... they simply think in terms of 'What do I want to watch".


That is very true - except you still need a way to deal with the time sensitive stuff. For example, we're right in the Superbowl season. That kind of needs a scheduler, right? But beyond that kind of use case - while there are still holdouts, I agree. The classic way content is consumed is rapidly changing, and Tivo isn't in a market leadership position to take advantage of it - because their historical core value has nothing to do with what the younger generations want - and other companies are already delivering value in those spaces.

I personally thought several years ago that Tivo was numbered in its days - and I said it (much to the anger of others here) years ago. I thought IP based content delivery, combined with cord cutting because of the ever increasing cost of traditional cable and different viewing habits of newer generations, and technology changes - would all combine to make Tivo less and less relevant. I thought Tivo had one chance which was to massively increase their penetration into delivering not retail hardware, but software to the MSOs - and get completely out of the retail business. It's looking to me like a lot of this is coming true, and in a time when Tivo simply cannot afford to have the quality of their service questioned - as they're viewed as a "premium offering" the switch to Rovi has significantly damaged their brand, and even alienated former strong advocates.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Emacee said:


> Most of the cost is for the online program guide.
> Under Rovi, the program guide has become inaccurate and problem-prone.
> Is the Rovi guide worth what you have to pay?
> I say no.


I say yes. I have Lifetime on my Tivo though, so it costs me nothing. I have similar problems now with the guide data that I had before Rovi got involved. The only new difference is one locally produced PBS show never lists the details of the restaurants reviewed on that show.


Emacee said:


> DVR recording *is becoming* - or *has become* - obsolete.


Which is it? You're equivocating here.

Not obsolete and not becoming obsolete. Plenty of folks here trying to upgrade to 3TB or larger drives. Why would they do that if you were right? One guy here with 3 Tivos, one with a 3TB drive, one with a 2TB drive and one with a 1TB drive. 6TB of potential stored content. Another guy has 18 Tivo tuners and an NAS to archive his overflow.



Emacee said:


> Plus programs get clipped because guides are not accurate. When my box dies, that's it.


I've never seen this. What I have seen is one cable network that starts shows 1 or 2 minutes late all the time. My 1Ps on that channel pad by 5 minutes. Other channels don't know how to handle live sports programs and run 30- 60- or even hours late. This happened before Rovi and happens now. New users complain of missing programs and need to be informed to pad pro sports by an hour or two.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

wmhjr said:


> I do think that Rovi is just waiting, and really has no intent (or frankly capability) to improve the quality of their new combined products.


I don't think there is major demand for improvement. I got all excited about the 4K capable Bolt until I realized there is still no recordable 4K content delivered over coax. If there is, Tivo says they will be able to handle it with software updates. Then I found out you really need HDR for 4K to pop. Now I just recently found out that the TV needs a certain level of brightness to make HDR work well. So, I still do not have a 4K TV and I'm sticking with my Roamio basic for now.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

I have two S3 648's, 1 HD, 2 Premieres, 2 Roamios: all DVR's Lifetimed, and 2 Mini's, and do use the TiVo app for FireTV on occasion using my LAN. I'd say that demonstrates a pretty strong faith and investment in TiVo, in the past. When the Bolt came out, I saw no reason for me to upgrade. I have no UHD TV's and I saw no compelling features of the Bolt compared to the features of the Roamio. Then the pricing scheme for the Bolt was a VERY BIG TURN OFF. Then, even more bad news of Rovi's purchase of TiVo, and that was the last straw. At that point I could see no real future for TiVo under Rovi management, especially with things going to the internet and apps with Netflix, Hulu, etc. and SlingTV and DirecTV Now and Sony Vue.

Another thing I considered is that even the legacy TiVo's were still excellent DVR's (Rovi EPG has eroded that excellent experience) with the useful MRV feature, and the Roamios are still, IMHO, state of the art DVR's and allow for streaming among them and my S4's. I would not be upgrading to anything important for me if I got a Bolt even not counting that awful pricing scheme, so such an upgrade made no sense for me.

Considering how underwhelming the Bolt is, and how GREAT the Roamios are, and Rovi's degradation of the TiVo experience, I just can't see myself investing in any TiVo products any more. It is sad, but it is what it is. I have no confidence in Rovi (they were an infamous company before purchasing TiVo), so I am not ready to invest in any of the new TiVo post Rovi products. I may invest in other CE products, but since the sale of TiVo to Rovi, I believe I am finished spending any more money on TiVo. I will continue to use the TiVo's I have today until Rovi management pulls the plug.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

lpwcomp said:


> If you think that the program data problems don't apply to non-sports OTA, you are sadly mistaken.


Yes. My OTA guide data was a mess for a while, and I am still dealing with the system still adding out of market OTA's that are tagged as Channels I Receive and it messes up my OnePasses. There has been improvement, but not enough so that it was anything close to what it was before Rovi.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> Then the pricing scheme for the Bolt was a VERY BIG TURN OFF.


I just can't fathom, for me, spending $549.99 on a TiVo lifetime subscription (let alone $149.99 per year or $14.99 per month on a subscription).* But I'm a "value consumer" sensitive to pricing, as well as on OTA (not used to, in my view, shockingly-high monthly cable charges).

But perhaps TiVo finally has adjusted to someone of my ilk with the Roamio OTA at a current MSRP of $399 (including lifetime) and available for below that--I only wish that cable users had that possibility as well (I still don't understand why TiVo doesn't have an equivalent offer for cable users, using the original Roamio which could do either OTA or cable, simply including a cable card bracket in the box--perhaps TiVo is trying to bank on a perceived cable user greater willingness to pay more for a TiVo box, already being used to cable charges?). The Roamio OTA is a deal, especially considering TiVo's subscription pricing history.

* I've been bashed here in the past, for daring to state this heretical view.  (But that was when lifetime was at $400, if I recall correctly.)


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## cybergrimes (Jun 15, 2015)

Earlier this week I found myself casting Hulu to my TV instead of using the Roamio app because I knew it would do the stutter/pause thing after a while of watching. A few minutes ago I added a bookmark to Vudu for "Trolls" but when I launched the link it brought up "Trollz", search for "Trollz" and you get 2 listings-- one for Amazon and one for Vudu. It's amazing how badly new stuff is added to the database.

I think if anyone puts together a box with the basic streaming apps, OTA and a grown up remote that can change volume, input and launch the guide then I will eventually jump from TiVo. I want the box to have built-in tuners though, not interested in HDHomerun, etc.


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## rjspring (Jul 16, 2008)

I still have TV service because I still watch a lot of live sports and my cable company has married TV service to internet service in order to get no bandwidth caps. I have 2 Tivo HDs, and a premier (at another location) - all have lifetime subs. I've been a customer since 2007 and love my Tivos.

But times are changing, I frequently have switched over to watching shows as they release on Amazon or Netflix and am recording less and less. The apps on the Tivo HDs have long since been supported, so I stream over a Roku. Heck, my TV now has more features built in than my TivoHDs and is continually getting firmware updates for refinement. As 4K takes off, I'll be upgrading my Roku for less than $200 instead of investing hundreds or over $1,000 on a bolt+. Beyond that, it took over a month for Tivo to update my guide data on one channel that was set to East coast feed vs West coast (so no shows recorded at the proper time on that channel). I had to hound support at least three times before getting it resolved (and missed most of the current season of the show I was trying to record).

All of this together paints a pretty stark picture for the future of Tivo, which is a hard thing for me to admit since I've otherwise been a very happy customer of theirs going on 10 years. The future of entertainment consumption is over the internet, so right now I'm more likely to invest into a larger internet pipe vs buying a newer/better Tivo.


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## dfreybur (Jan 27, 2006)

Maybe.

My first Tivo was a Series 2 had a DVR writer and that was the killer app of the time. When the switch to HDTV made that useless I had already gotten a Premier and was iffy about any advantage over a cable DVR.

But cable companies have been abusive since vastly longer ago than I bought my first Tivo. The motivation to cut the cable has been with me for a very long time.

Once broadband got good enough to only lose stream a few times per month it was worth cutting the cable. No way are we ever going back.

Now the killer app is our Roamio OTA. But antenna based options exist and broadband keeps getting better. We've only lost stream twice in the last month. The combination of Roku and SlingTV is getting to be close competition with Roamio OTA plus Amazon Prime for us.

At this point Tivo has had a killer app twice for me. Once it went away for reasons I understand but do not sympathize with. It went away. Once the competition got good enough.

If some competitor puts out a device that has better integration of OTA and a service like Sling I could easily switch to it when my current Tivo gets old. We already do Roku with SlingTV in one room.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> But perhaps TiVo finally has adjusted to someone of my ilk with the Roamio OTA at a current MSRP of $399 (including lifetime) and available for below that--I only wish that cable users had that possibility as well (I still don't understand why TiVo doesn't have an equivalent offer for cable users, using the original Roamio which could do either OTA or cable, simply including a cable card bracket in the box--perhaps TiVo is trying to bank on a perceived cable user greater willingness to pay more for a TiVo box, already being used to cable charges?). The Roamio OTA is a deal, especially considering TiVo's subscription pricing history.


Yes, Lifetime/All-in has gotten out of hand on the cable side. I think TiVo is courting a much more value-conscious market on the Roamio OTA, and that's a market that doesn't have a clear price point set for what a DVR "should" cost. On OTA, TiVo is competing against the ChannelMaster DVR, the Tablo, or not having a DVR at all. The ChannelMaster DVR has far fewer features, but also costs less, and the Tablo DVR also has no additional fees to add more TVs, since it's all wireless streaming. TiVo messed up bigtime on the Roamio OTA originally, as they were charging a monthly or yearly fee, which is heretical to the OTA market. They finally got it right with the $299 and $399 units, as that up-front, one time cost model fits with the cord cutting OTA market's view of trying to get rid of monthly fees.

If you look at the cable market, part of TiVo's value proposition is that you avoid a huge cost, typically $20/mo for the DVR, and $10/mo for each additional TV on Comcast/Charter/Cox/Verizon. Therefore, the price point has been set, and they are competing within the framework of that pricing model, and also using the value proposition of getting rid of monthly fees, where the break-even gets much quicker as you add more TVs at $150 up front, versus $10/mo every month.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

In other words, charge what each segment of the market will bear.  I'm so much more of a Star Trek economy than the current. 

The answer being, for the cable value-conscious customer, perhaps buy a Roamio OTA and add on an $11 cable card bracket with a minimum of modding. . . .


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> In other words, charge what each segment of the market will bear.  I'm so much more of a Star Trek economy than the current.
> 
> The answer being, for the cable value-conscious customer, perhaps buy a Roamio OTA and add on an $11 cable card bracket with a minimum of modding. . . .


I'm not sure how the guide data works now that TiVo is owned by Rovi, or how it worked before, but to be fair, they are only providing guide data for like 30 channels for OTA users versus 300+ for cable users. They've also worked with Comcast and Cox to integrate XoD/VoD into TiVo. But, yes, it is partly charge what the market will bear. Not like Comcast doesn't do the same to a larger extreme!


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Bigg said:


> I'm not sure how the guide data works now that TiVo is owned by Rovi, or how it worked before, but to be fair, they are only providing guide data for like 30 channels for OTA users versus 300+ for cable users. They've also worked with Comcast and Cox to integrate XoD/VoD into TiVo.


A _very_ interesting point (although, heaven forbid we be fair when it comes to TiVo's pricing models  ): the extra cost that TiVo faces in handling and managing (don't laugh) the many extra channels of program data for cable users. Having said that, due to the OTA channel/sub-channel explosion, my OTA Guide currently has 99 channels/sub-channels of programming in my larger urban area.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Mikeguy said:


> A _very_ interesting point (although, heaven forbid we be fair when it comes to TiVo's pricing models  ): the extra cost that TiVo faces in handling and managing (don't laugh) the many extra channels of program data for cable users. Having said that, due to the OTA channel/sub-channel explosion, my OTA Guide currently has 99 channels/sub-channels of programming in my larger urban area.


Although not all of them have guide data (i.e. Music Choice), a modern rebuilt cable system or FiOS is pushing upwards of 400 channels. I think what the market will bear absolutely is a driving factor, but it's not the only factor involved. You could also argue that CableCard development and certification costs aren't amortized out over the OTA boxes, although they were sunk costs when developing the Roamio originally. I'm not sure if there is a per unit CableLabs licensing fee that's an actual difference in cost for the OTA vs. the Bolt/Bolt+?


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## interweb (Jul 24, 2015)

I am strictly OTA so my needs are simple. Have a Tivo Roamio OTA + mini for my 2 TVs. Still have another year of $20 payments on lifetime sub special. Been fine for what I need so far.

In the process of switching to Plex DVR (in beta right now) paired with SiliconDust HDHomeRun EXTEND (no sub required, Gracenote used by Plex for guide data).


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

No. Not unless Tivo replaces the Rovi guide data with Tribune.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

headless chicken said:


> No. Not unless Tivo replaces the Rovi guide data with Tribune.


Tribune Media Services (Gracenote) does not exist anymore as Tribune company sold it off as it was losing money. There is no going back.


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## Gil (Apr 8, 2002)

Sad to say, after almost 2 decades as a TiVO devotee, I'm out. This Rovi debacle has completely soured me. Of the 10+ TiVOs I've had over the years, starting with a Philips Series I bought on release day and all with lifetime subs, I'm down to a single old Series4. Sold my PremiereXL and two Roamios in November when the writing on the wall about the future of TiVO became painfully clear. Held on to the Series4 because of its OTA/cablecard combo. But now Tivo has screwed up my user experience one final time: losing guide data over Superbowl weekend. So I'm going to toss the Series4 on eBay before Rovi ruins any remaining residual value. Between online streaming providers and Plex (to organize OTA recordings from Tablo and cablecard recordings from HDHomeRun), its time to say adios TiVO. TiVO was great for almost 18 years...and absolute hell since August!


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

Jed1 said:


> Tribune Media Services (Gracenote) does not exist anymore as Tribune company sold it off as it was losing money. There is no going back.


So who is providing the zap2it.com guide data? That information is still far superior.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

headless chicken said:


> So who is providing the zap2it.com guide data? That information is still far superior.


I keep waiting for the copyright to change. It still says 2016. Yes, the accuracy is still great.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

headless chicken said:


> So who is providing the zap2it.com guide data? That information is still far superior.


I seem to remember that the company that does Nielsen ratings bought Gracenote.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

headless chicken said:


> So who is providing the zap2it.com guide data? That information is still far superior.


Neilson. The agreement was reached on December 22nd 2016. I don't know how long it will take for them to take full control or decide to make changes. Since the division was losing money I assume some trimming will need to be done (Synergies if using corporate speech). It will be a wait and see how things will turn out as we go through this year.


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## somename (Jan 20, 2017)

My problem is deciding whether cable or directv looks better. I just compared Disney on both and it looked more flat on diretctv and people practically 3d on comcast, so clearly I was wrong recently hen I thought Comcast was worse and went back to directv...

As long as I end up with cable, I would want TiVo because the bolt's menu use speed is amazing.

I wonder if number of channels in the purchased package could affect picture quality? It sure looked worse before I lowered down to this package with only like 50 channels. I assume they would always be compressed the same amount, regardless, though, so maybe I imagined it looking bad a few days ago. I shouldn't have so quickly rushed back to directv, because now I think they list me as under a new agreement, despite not telling me I was agreeing to it.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

somename said:


> I wonder if number of channels in the purchased package could affect picture quality? It sure looked worse before I lowered down to this package with only like 50 channels. I assume they would always be compressed the same amount, regardless, though, so maybe I imagined it looking bad a few days ago.


No that won't affect picture quality.

Scott


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

somename said:


> My problem is deciding whether cable or directv looks better. I just compared Disney on both and it looked more flat on diretctv and people practically 3d on comcast, so clearly I was wrong recently hen I thought Comcast was worse and went back to directv...
> 
> As long as I end up with cable, I would want TiVo because the bolt's menu use speed is amazing.
> 
> I wonder if number of channels in the purchased package could affect picture quality? It sure looked worse before I lowered down to this package with only like 50 channels. I assume they would always be compressed the same amount, regardless, though, so maybe I imagined it looking bad a few days ago. I shouldn't have so quickly rushed back to directv, because now I think they list me as under a new agreement, despite not telling me I was agreeing to it.


DirecTV has long had a reputation as having the best HD picture quality in the industry (along with Verizon FiOS some years back, although I've read that FiOS doesn't look as good these days). When I had DirecTV a couple years ago, my opinion was that at times it looked awesome but at times not-so-great. Compared to Dish, I felt like DirecTV had higher highs and lower lows, and picture quality would vary by channel and time. I think they dynamically allocate bandwidth, giving more popular channels and shows a higher bitrate and therefore better PQ. Rather than just basing a comparison on one channel at a particular time, I'd suggest multiple comparisons across the shows you watch on various channels.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

NashGuy said:


> DirecTV has long had a reputation as having the best HD picture quality in the industry (along with Verizon FiOS some years back, although I've read that FiOS doesn't look as good these days). When I had DirecTV a couple years ago, my opinion was that at times it looked awesome but at times not-so-great. Compared to Dish, I felt like DirecTV had higher highs and lower lows, and picture quality would vary by channel and time. I think they dynamically allocate bandwidth, giving more popular channels and shows a higher bitrate and therefore better PQ. Rather than just basing a comparison on one channel at a particular time, I'd suggest multiple comparisons across the shows you watch on various channels.


DirecTV seems to favor popular sports channels, and they move channels around from one TP to another as needed (i.e. MSNBC had more bandwidth this past summer for Rio than it normally has for talking heads).


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## somename (Jan 20, 2017)

Well, I watch tvland, which isn't even in HD with Comcast or dish. So that's one plus for directv. Disney looked much better on Comcast last night. I'll have to do some more comparing.

Either way, the bolt is so speedy in menus and overall interface is so nice, I hate to stick with directv and sell the TiVo. But I don't know if I have a choice.


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## glugglug (Sep 8, 2010)

Jed1 said:


> Tribune Media Services (Gracenote) does not exist anymore as Tribune company sold it off as it was losing money. There is no going back.


Funny, I still seem able to use their guide data through SchedulesDirect..


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Jed1 said:


> Tribune Media Services (Gracenote) does not exist anymore as Tribune company sold it off as it was losing money. There is no going back.





glugglug said:


> Funny, I still seem able to use their guide data through SchedulesDirect..


Yes, still exists but there is still no going because TiVo is now a direct competitor. Besides, haven't you heard? The new program data is more accurate.


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## Jed1 (Jun 18, 2013)

glugglug said:


> Funny, I still seem able to use their guide data through SchedulesDirect..


The acquisition was just completed on February 1st. Time will tell what changes they may make to the data operation.
Nielsen Completes Acquisition of Gracenote - Gracenote
What People Watch, Listen To and Buy | Nielsen


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Their new identity:
TV Listings and Data (Video) | Gracenote
They are now a Nielson Company.


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## Anotherpyr (May 6, 2015)

Unless things change I'd have to say no. Rovi has basically broken it for me. Inaccurate guide data, disabling push, and inability to find content on Netflix and Amazon from the general search screen has basically resulted in an over priced product. As more content becomes available via streaming and on other, less expensive platforms I just don't see a future for tivo at this point.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

atmuscarella said:


> I seem to remember that the company that does Nielsen ratings bought Gracenote.


Correct. And Nielsen's intentions are to provide what Gracenote/Tribune had provided.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

Series3Sub said:


> And Nielsen's intentions are to provide what Gracenote/Tribune had provided.


Has there been a statement to this effect from Nielsen? My understanding is that Gracenote was losing money, and there's always a fear, then, of economizing efforts.


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## KWinOB (Jun 22, 2003)

It's a tough call, but for right now, Tivo is still my best solution. Every time I try to introduce a new device in my household it is met with downright contempt, scorn and suspicion. If I leave the house without putting the TV back on HDMI 1, I will get a phone call complaining that I've broken the TV. 
What I need are more streaming options from Tivo, something like a Tivo with Roku or Android TV software baked in. I could get away with having a Roku or Android button on my Tivo Peanut as long as the TV stays on HDMI 1. 
We are finally seeing OTA/streaming convergence in new products from Sling and Mohu, why not Tivo?


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## 8bitbarbarian (Jul 4, 2004)

probably not. My sony series 1 w/ lifetime was the best gadget I ever bought and changed my life for the better. The roamio that replaced it is fine but the times are evolving and I just don't see buying another tivo. Of course maybe they make another best gadget ever - then I will certainly consider it.


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## just4tivo (Dec 9, 2015)

Had cable or Dish or DirecTV for what seems like forever. Knew of TiVo but never had a chance to use one and experience what it did or didn't do.

Finally cut the cord last year and bought two Roamio OTAs with lifetime service. Initially was impressed with TiVos features but after a year I'd never buy another TiVo.

1.Too many problems too often and TiVo takes too much time to resolve them.

2.Repeated guide problems even now that the guide company owns TiVo. When the guide is not right TiVo service is useless.

3.Lifetime service (all-in) is in reality a REALLY limited lifetime service.

4.The 3 year extended warranty only works once in the three years instead of the remaining time transferring to a replacement box as is the industry standard.

With so many people looking to cut the cord TiVo is in position to have a great advantage in that market with the Roamio OTA but they're dropping the ball.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

just4tivo said:


> .....
> With so many people looking to cut the cord TiVo is in position to have a great advantage in that market with the Roamio OTA but they're dropping the ball.


I don't think TiVo's assessment of this opportunity matches yours. They probably see more profit opportunity with a different business plan, involving new products more oriented to cloud and/or streaming functionality. And they may be right because I don't think there is such a huge number of people wanting OTA DVR's. For this and other reasons I don't think they will ever bring the guide data quality up to pre-Rovi levels. I plan to suffer along with my lifetime Roamio until it just isn't worth it anymore compared to other options that keep getting more attractive.


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## somename (Jan 20, 2017)

Sigh. I compared nbc and premium channels, and seriously Comcast looks better than directv in all channels I look at, it seems. To the point where people look 3d on Comcast and more flat on directv.

The sound is better on directv, though.

But, anyway, it sucks to know Comcast looks better now that I am stuck with directv for another eyar. I could keep the TiVo and these limited Comcast channels and treat it as extra recording space for the channels I do have on Comcast, I guess. But then I'm out all the money the TiVo cost me.


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## jollygrunt777 (Feb 28, 2012)

Once my current Time Warner promo ends in June, I'm planning to return the 6-tuner cisco 9865 unit I have and use a Roamio Pro instead. I'm currently shopping around for a good used one; however, If tivo drops a new model between now and then, I may go with that, but I've got no interest in the Bolt model.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

somename said:


> Sigh. I compared nbc and premium channels, and seriously Comcast looks better than directv in all channels I look at, it seems. To the point where people look 3d on Comcast and more flat on directv.
> 
> The sound is better on directv, though.


You must not have Comcast MPEG-4 yet. When you get it, Comcast will be a total mess. By the time your DirecTV contract is up, all markets will be MPEG-4 on Comcast, and DirecTV will be far better.


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## somename (Jan 20, 2017)

Bigg said:


> You must not have Comcast MPEG-4 yet. When you get it, Comcast will be a total mess. By the time your DirecTV contract is up, all markets will be MPEG-4 on Comcast, and DirecTV will be far better.


I thought mpeg-4 would be worse than mpeg-2, as well, but before Comcast started rolling out mpeg-4, post after post on online forums said mpeg-4 would improve the picture instead of degrade it. (maybe because they could keep from doing their own compressing?).

edit: TiVo, when announcing the switch at the time, apparently said mpeg-4 would allow for crystal clear HD, better than before and all comments I find from back then say mpeg-4 would be an improvement, and that they should have done it many years earlier. I don't know if it ever got rolled out here, but I know the picture on it looks better than I ever remember it looking, as far as depth to the picture. It could be that directv did some processing I could undo with settings, but I don't know of an easy way of calibrating for directv specifically, where slides would be altered the way the diectv programming is.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

somename said:


> I thought mpeg-4 would be worse than mpeg-2, as well, but before Comcast started rolling out mpeg-4, post after post on online forums said mpeg-4 would improve the picture instead of degrade it. (maybe because they could keep from doing their own compressing?).


MPEG-4, when implemented correctly with a decent amount of bitrate, like on Verizon FiOS (only for VICELAND and a few dozen oddball channels), DirecTV (all HD), and Google Fiber (all channels AFAIK), will look better than MPEG-2. The way that Comcast implements MPEG-4, it looks horrible, as they are compressing it too much.



> edit: TiVo, when announcing the switch at the time, apparently said mpeg-4 would allow for crystal clear HD, better than before and all comments I find from back then say mpeg-4 would be an improvement, and that they should have done it many years earlier. I don't know if it ever got rolled out here, but I know the picture on it looks better than I ever remember it looking, as far as depth to the picture. It could be that directv did some processing I could undo with settings, but I don't know of an easy way of calibrating for directv specifically, where slides would be altered the way the diectv programming is.


It's possible that some regional sports feeds are marginally better on Comcast than DirecTV, and those channels are still MPEG-2 on some of the earlier MPEG-4 converted systems like the Bay Area market, among others. Those feeds are often given a lot of bandwidth, since they are regionally, not nationally compressed. On newer MPEG-4 conversions, they convert everything, and it all looks like garbage.


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## somename (Jan 20, 2017)

Bigg, well I don't know. All I know is currently something is making channels look better on Comcast here. I compared on Disney, nbc, and cinemax, I think. No clue if it's mpeg-4or not. In the list of cities I saw, mine wasn't on it, but that list was from years ago.

Either way, I am stuck with directv if I don't want to spend $220 to get out of the contract. Comcast would give me more channels and save me $15 per month, so $165 of that $220 would come back to me in the same 11 months. Plus I wouldn't have to sell my tivos. But I'll likely just stick with directv until the contract is up.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I have no issues with mpeg4 channels on Comcast, they don't look any different than before.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

somename said:


> Bigg, well I don't know. All I know is currently something is making channels look better on Comcast here. I compared on Disney, nbc, and cinemax, I think. No clue if it's mpeg-4or not. In the list of cities I saw, mine wasn't on it, but that list was from years ago.


Where are you located? It sounds like you're not MPEG-4 yet, and you will be soon, so DirecTV is still a good bet in that case. For your local channels, Comcast may look better, it's a crapshoot market by market, and Comcast generally transmits whatever they get from the local channels without additional re-compression.


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## series5orpremier (Jul 6, 2013)

I certainly wouldn't buy a TiVo for cable use under these guide circumstances but I would consider buying one for OTA use if I needed one. The thing is, though, I already have 3 OTA-capable lifetimed Roamios and a 4th one for spare parts so I don't envision needing one.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

As an OTA viewer, I'm leery at this point of spending a lot of money on another OTA DVR given the uncertainty around the rollout of ATSC 3.0, as well as developments among existing 1.0 stations during the upcoming repack into reduced spectrum. I'm not suggesting that those uncertainties keep anyone from buying their first OTA DVR if they don't already have one but given that I already have a Roamio OTA, I can't imagine spending $300 or more (on hardware + lifetime service) on a new TiVo or other OTA DVR that can't tune and record ATSC 3.0 signals. Sure, it's possible there won't be any broadcasters here in Nashville beaming out 3.0 signals until 2020 but I think it's just as likely that there will be one or two doing so by mid-2018. We just don't know.


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## ncbill (Sep 1, 2007)

It's clear ATSC 3.0 is taking longer than expected to even finalize the various standards.

So I picked up a lifetime Roamio OTA on sale last fall to replace a Premiere in my living room and expect to be using it for at least the next 5 years.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

ncbill said:


> It's clear ATSC 3.0 is taking longer than expected to even finalize the various standards.
> 
> So I picked up a lifetime Roamio OTA on sale last fall to replace a Premiere in my living room and expect to be using it for at least the next 5 years.


Not really. Most of the standards are already finalized, the rest will be in the first half of this year. The FCC this month takes up the rollout of ATSC 3.0 broadcasts and is widely expected to issue a finalized approval before year-end. Meanwhile, LG, Samsung and others are manufacturing 3.0 equipment this year for sale and deployment in South Korea, where the first commercial 3.0 broadcast in UHD took place back in Dec., with significant deployment of broadcasters and receivers anticipated in time for the 2018 Winter Olympics. The US is a year or so behind Korea, I'd say, when it comes to ATSC 3.0.

That said, 1.0 will be around for many more years so I have no doubt we'll be able to use our Roamio OTAs for at least the next five years with 1.0 signals. But we'll never be able to use them with the next-gen 3.0 signals.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

ncbill said:


> It's clear ATSC 3.0 is taking longer than expected to even finalize the various standards.
> 
> So I picked up a lifetime Roamio OTA on sale last fall to replace a Premiere in my living room and expect to be using it for at least the next 5 years.


Not bad: $40 per year for a TiVo box and full TiVo "experience."


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> As an OTA viewer, I'm leery at this point of spending a lot of money on another OTA DVR given the uncertainty around the rollout of ATSC 3.0, as well as developments among existing 1.0 stations during the upcoming repack into reduced spectrum. I'm not suggesting that those uncertainties keep anyone from buying their first OTA DVR if they don't already have one but given that I already have a Roamio OTA, I can't imagine spending $300 or more (on hardware + lifetime service) on a new TiVo or other OTA DVR that can't tune and record ATSC 3.0 signals. Sure, it's possible there won't be any broadcasters here in Nashville beaming out 3.0 signals until 2020 but I think it's just as likely that there will be one or two doing so by mid-2018. We just don't know.


Ya the unknown time table is an issue for anyone who finds themselves in a position where they would like a new OTA DVR. It will be interesting to see how TiVo reacts to ATSC 3.0 product wise. They could release network or USB attached ATSC 3.0 tuners that would allow the Bolt/Bolt+ to record ATSC 3.0 broadcast. They could also release a new OTA DVR that supports both ATSC 1.0 & 3.0 or of course do nothing.

Right now for me if something happened to all my TiVos I would still spend the $375 and get another Roamio OTA.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> It will be interesting to see how TiVo reacts to ATSC 3.0 product wise. They could release network or USB attached ATSC 3.0 tuners that would allow the Bolt/Bolt+ to record ATSC 3.0 broadcast. They could also release a new OTA DVR that supports both ATSC 1.0 & 3.0 or of course do nothing.


I'd be shocked if TiVo sold 3.0 tuners to work with the Bolt. I don't think there have been a ton of Bolts sold and what percentage of those in use do you think are used with OTA instead of cable? Plus, take into consideration everything we see about the direction of post-merger TiVo with regard to retail products. If we see TiVo produce any retail product for ATSC 3.0 (as opposed to licensing their software and patents for use with other manufacturers' OTA hardware), I think it would be a whole new product, like an update to the Mavrik (if that product sees the light of day), rather than add-on hardware for the Bolt, which they introduced back in fall 2015.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> I'd be shocked if TiVo sold 3.0 tuners to work with the Bolt. I don't think there have been a ton of Bolts sold and what percentage of those in use do you think are used with OTA instead of cable? Plus, take into consideration everything we see about the direction of post-merger TiVo with regard to retail products. If we see TiVo produce any retail product for ATSC 3.0 (as opposed to licensing their software and patents for use with other manufacturers' OTA hardware), I think it would be a whole new product, like an update to the Mavrik (if that product sees the light of day), rather than add-on hardware for the Bolt, which they introduced back in fall 2015.


From everything we know the Mavrik is a headless network attached ATSC tuner. You don't actually expect TiVo to release such a device and not allow their own DVRs/Minis to be used as a head do you?

If it remains an ATSC 1.0 device I would be very surprised if TiVo didn't allow all Series 4 and above devices to be used as heads for it along with what ever third party streaming devices TiVo decides to support. The same would be true if it or a future model ended up being an ATSC 3.0 device, there would be zero reason to not expect a Bolt/Bolt+ to be able to be it's head.

The only question is where recorded programs would be stored. We have seen allot about storing programs in the Cloud but I refuse to believe TiVo believes they can go with pure cloud storage. So until we know otherwise I am going to figure there will be some form of local storage, with attached USB, another TiVo DVR, a NAS, or a computer being the options I see.


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## NashGuy (May 2, 2015)

atmuscarella said:


> From everything we know the Mavrik is a headless network attached ATSC tuner. You don't actually expect TiVo to release such a device and not allow their own DVRs/Minis to be used as a head do you?


Maybe. I'd say it is more likely than not that existing TiVo units will be able to access live and recorded TV from the Mavrik but it also wouldn't surprise me if they couldn't. My guess is that TiVo sees the Mavrik as aimed at a different potential group of consumers than their current user base. Mavrik looks set to go head-to-head against Tablo. But if it doesn't add significant additional developmental, hardware or support costs to make it compatible with existing TiVo hardware, I don't see why they wouldn't.



atmuscarella said:


> If it remains an ATSC 1.0 device I would be very surprised if TiVo didn't allow all Series 4 and above devices to be used as heads for it along with what ever third party streaming devices TiVo decides to support. The same would be true if it or a future model ended up being an ATSC 3.0 device, there would be zero reason to not expect a Bolt/Bolt+ to be able to be it's head.


Yeah, again, that could well be the case. But when I was talking before about it being unlikely that TiVo would put out an add-on ATSC 3.0 tuner to upgrade existing Bolts, I wasn't referring to something like the Mavrik, a network DVR which is really it's own product which could also be used with simple cheap non-TiVo STBs like Roku, Fire TV, etc.

The more I read and think about ATSC 3.0, I'm not even sure whether a dedicated DVR would be necessary to record or play back those OTA signals. Proponents have pushed the concept of ATSC 3.0 network tuners that will accept a USB hard drive for recording signals and making them accessible throughout the home's wifi network. Since 3.0 is fully IP-based, with support for HTML5 apps and the ability to merge broadcast and internet data streams, I wonder if the tuner itself may be able to act as a DVR once a storage device is attached, without the need for additional hardware like a Tablo or Mantis. Likewise, smart TVs would probably only need an app installed (which could perhaps be an HTML5 app pushed to it from within the ATSC 3.0 signal) in order to have the DVR UI for setting up, playing and deleting recordings.



atmuscarella said:


> The only question is where recorded programs would be stored. We have seen allot about storing programs in the Cloud but I refuse to believe TiVo believes they can go with pure cloud storage. So until we know otherwise I am going to figure there will be some form of local storage, with attached USB, another TiVo DVR, a NAS, or a computer being the options I see.


I'd be surprised if TiVo rolled out a product that could only work with cloud storage, without the option for local USB storage, but who knows? Looks like Tablo is introducing a cloud-only single-tuner DVR soon.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, again, that could well be the case. But when I was talking before about it being unlikely that TiVo would put out an add-on ATSC 3.0 tuner to upgrade existing Bolts, I wasn't referring to something like the Mavrik, a network DVR which is really it's own product which could also be used with simple cheap non-TiVo STBs like Roku, Fire TV, etc.


You are correct something like what we think the Mavrik will be is more advanced than a bare bones USB or Network attached ASTC tuner. So I also agreed there is some chance that TiVo will choose to not integrate the Mavrik with their existing DVRs/Mini.

That said even though devices like the Mavrik, Silicon Dust's HD HomeRun Connect/Extend, and Tablo are more advanced than a basic ATSC tuner they still are primarily ATSC network attached tuners. With all these devices there is some basic firmware on the devices but all the higher level functionality is provided through remotely located software and the hardware it is running on. What differentiates them is that remotely located software.

TiVo already has that remotely located software on it's DVRs & Mini, seems really foolish to me to not utilize what already exists.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

If the built-in tuners become obsolete, Could Tivo simply update the software to utilize network tuners over IP?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> If the built-in tuners become obsolete, Could Tivo simply update the software to utilize network tuners over IP?


This question reminds me of the old mythical recipe for rabbit stew that begins with the instruction "First, catch a rabbit."


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> If the built-in tuners become obsolete, Could Tivo simply update the software to utilize network tuners over IP?


I am going to assume you are talking about OTA tuners and by becoming obsolete you are talking about OTA broadcast going to ATSC 3.0.

If the above is what you are asking the answer depends on the what TiVo we are talking about. The Bolt should have no hardware issues with utilizing network attached ATSC 3.0 tuners. However Premieres and Roamios do not support h.265 broadcasts (which is what ATSC 3.0 broadcasts will be), so the answer is no unless the tuners are also going to convert the broadcast to a format the Premieres and Roamios can handle (like h.264).


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## mcf57 (Oct 19, 2012)

I voted no only cause I recently discovered an ANdroid based IPTV service. FOr less than $30/month, I get ALL cable channels in HD on my 55" HDTV; Premiums, NFL sunday ticket, NHL Center ICE, PPV and OnDemand movies. No need to "record" anything anymore. I can just stream it ALL. Its totally portable too. I loved my TiVO, but it won't be around much longer


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## delgadobb (Mar 6, 2004)

OK, I'll bite. What is this Android-based IPTV service for less than $30/mo? 

A lot of us here watch very little live TV. If there's no need to record anything, does that mean I can wake up late on Sunday & watch any (complete) football game I want? What about baseball? Can I go back & watch any of the Cubs/Indians World Series games when I want? (Yeah, I saved 'em.) How about when I want to watch, say, Three Days of the Condor? Omega Man? Kentucky Fried Movie? The Warriors? Stargate? Rounders? How about specialty episodes of shows related to Ferrets? Any episode of Banacek? Police Squad? How about shows like The Desert Speaks? Travelscope? Born to Explore? How about World Series of Poker airings from ESPN the last several years (in full, not condensed)? Can I watch the Grammys Beatles tribute show? I can do all of that today.

I'd be wide open to looking into a new service, but history has indicated that not everything I want is available when I want. Netflix is great, but doesn't have everything & stuff disappears. Hulu is an example of my fear when paying for a streaming service, still being subjected to commercials. Whoever controls the content can subject you to such things - some of why I like the freedom of Tivo. At least I can skip commercials & the like rather than being subject to external controls. 

While things are definitely moving towards streaming and IPTV, it doesn't mean it's the panacea that some make it out to be. Nothing's perfect & that includes Tivo. For now, Tivo addresses my needs best, but that may well change in the next few years.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

delgadobb said:


> OK, I'll bite. What is this Android-based IPTV service for less than $30/mo?
> 
> A lot of us here watch very little live TV. If there's no need to record anything, does that mean I can wake up late on Sunday & watch any (complete) football game I want? What about baseball? Can I go back & watch any of the Cubs/Indians World Series games when I want? (Yeah, I saved 'em.) How about when I want to watch, say, Three Days of the Condor? Omega Man? Kentucky Fried Movie? The Warriors? Stargate? Rounders? How about specialty episodes of shows related to Ferrets? Any episode of Banacek? Police Squad? How about shows like The Desert Speaks? Travelscope? Born to Explore? How about World Series of Poker airings from ESPN the last several years (in full, not condensed)? Can I watch the Grammys Beatles tribute show? I can do all of that today.
> 
> ...


mcf57 posted likewise in a separate thread and likewise hasn't backed up the claim. Tivo's future. Lol.


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## mcf57 (Oct 19, 2012)

kodi and/or www.setvnow.com (just one of MANY)


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## osu1991 (Mar 6, 2015)

Nothing legal about those services and people will be complaining when the streams go down and the company vanishes leaving them with a grossly overpriced android box that they have no clue how to program again.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

I'll let others in the know opine. I don't see how what is stated (e.g. HBO and other premium services) can be provided by SET, for example, at the listed $20/month price.


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## poncho167 (Feb 6, 2017)

All I watch or want to watch is live TV and recorded shows.


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## mcf57 (Oct 19, 2012)

osu1991 said:


> Nothing legal about those services and people will be complaining when the streams go down and the company vanishes leaving them with a grossly overpriced android box that they have no clue how to program again.


Got it working easily on my $30 Amazon Fire Stick (simply installed the app). AND its super portable for when I go on vacation


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Mikeguy said:


> I'll let others in the know opine. I don't see how what is stated (e.g. HBO and other premium services) can be provided by SET, for example, at the listed $20/month price.


It's all illegal and he knows it. Shouldn't be bragging about it here.


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## Chuck_IV (Jan 1, 2002)

Honestly, I love Tivo but with Rovi's inept guide data, I gotta say, I will be thinking twice before considering Tivo again. Before Rovi, Tivo maybe missed 1 recording due inaccurate guide data in the year plus I had Tivo. Since then, which has been what, about 8 month, I have missed probably 6 or 7 initial recordings because the episode isn't labeled as new or has generic info. It sometimes picks it up days later, if the episode is reshown but not always.

I am also SO tired of looking at episode info, only to find a GENERIC description of the show instead of actual episode info. I can't figure out how Rovi has survived all these years with this inept data.

Anyway, enough ranting, if there is a viable alternative I will be thinking twice before going with Tivo the the next time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

I just ditched all my TiVos. Simply couldn't justify paying 25.00 a month for guide data and the ability to get my shows in SD. Older units, crap with cable card, and not wanting to give TWC any more of my money. You know for an extra 4 bucks a month I could convert that TiVo sub to PSVue all on demand and in HD? Not going to right now though, happy to save a little and only pick up HBO Now for my GoT addiction. Maybe even give Westworld a shot. 

It's also amazing that given all the inexpensive streaming devices and TiVos premium cost that TIVo hasn't offered some type of streaming content as part of the service. Cable companies sell viewers, why not TiVo/Rovi?


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