# THD about to be returned (quickly)



## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

OK, here's the nightmare. I've had about enough and don't think I'm willing to put up with poor quality Tivo software, but maybe somebody can say something to convince me not to....

I've had Comcast service, using 3 SA8300HD units. They're not perfect by any stretch, but not completely awful. Some intermittent audio drops, but not terrible. Verizon Fios became available and I wanted to try it.

Picked up a THD last week, with a scheduled CC install last Friday. Comcast tech came out and spent all day - never got the THD with cablecards to work. They were supposed to return on Saturday but never showed. 

Verizon came to install Fios TV Thursday. I maintained Comcast at the same time so I could compare. Verizon brought Moto6416-2 units for me to use as well - in addition to the CCs for the THD. All except the THD working very quickly. The THD took 5 hours (along with a bunch of phone calls) to get working.

At this time, I now have Comcast with 8300HDs, Verizon FiOS with 6416-2s, and a THD all active - and all connected via component to the same HD TV.

All seemed OK (except the THD responds pretty darn slowly) until this evening. Never even tried watching anything until tonight. My son had me schedule recording "Chuck" on NBC at 9pm Eastern tonight. At about 9:30 I attempted to put on the Pitt-WV game. The Tivo asks if I want to stop recording (Uh-oh, that ain't right). Tried checking to see what was recording, but screen went completely grey. Checked to insure CCs were OK, and they seemed OK, but couldn't get test channels. (Uh-oh, more problems). Tried live TV, no good. Tried (by this time after 10pm) playing back the "Chuck" recording. Nothing (Uh-oh, more problems). 

Called TiVO and waited on hold after specifying it was about THD, only to get routed to somebody not supporting THD. Then on hold another 25 minutes until I got somebody who supports THD. In the interim while waiting forever on hold, decided that I'd try rebooting the unit. Reboot finished just as the tech answered. The unit seemed to work correctly. BUT - when I went to play back "Chuck", it had actually recorded something completely different on a completely different channel (Oh No!). TiVo tech didn't have much of an answer so he transfered me to a "supervisor". Unfortunately, the supervisor basically said, "Well, it's working now so it must be OK. These things sometimes just have a minor issue and need rebooted".

Well, sorry but that just doesn't cut it for me. I've tried doing the research on this, but will not put up with unreliable equipment and ineffective support. Frankly, this just feels like sloppy software. The TiVo tech admitted that this could only be the result of something in their software or hardware and that this was not a CC issue. The entire time, both the 8300's and the 6416-2 kept rolling right along. So, if the TiVo UI and service is supposed to be so much better why is the absolute slowest DVR I've ever seen? Why is it the only one to require reboots? Why did it fail in less than 48 hours - and the first real time I've tried to use it?

Bottom line, how common of a situation is this? Why would people accept such obviously poor performance and support? Yeah, I'm frustrated. But the proof is in the pudding.


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## Combat Medic (Sep 6, 2001)

OK, you've had a number of issues that would upset anybody...but let me try to explain them.

Cable Card install problems. The Cable companies hate them and they suck at installing them.
TivoHD is slow. The Tivos are kindof like me. They take a while to wake up. What they are doing is indexing a bunch of data, and there are also a couple of software updates that they need to download to get you to the near perfect state that TivoHD can be.
Wrong show recorded. This is a new one. If I had to guess I'd say that it was a guide problem. Can you try going to the guide and see if what it is showing on the channel for Chuck is really what's showing?

-Mike


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

OK, thanks for the reply but I'm no more comfortable or OK with the unit. As a matter of fact, I just read another thread where people are complaining about their THDs going to grey or black screens and needing reboots - so it appears as though there is a clear quality issue.

1) Cablecard. Yes, the cableco's hate them. I don't blame them. They suck. The technology sucks. The support sucks. It all sucks. I can't blame the Cablecos for that. We're asking them to support non-Cableco 3rd party devices (the Tivo) in addiiton to the CC themselves. But, I really don't care who is responsible. Just that it's a major pain. AND expensive.

2) The unit is ALWAYS slow. NOT just when it was first plugged in and given ethernet access (internet). ALWAYS. For every single request and command. Let me be more clear. The unit was plugged in LAST thursday (thanksgiving) to the internet. It took the updates. It was never unplugged. It was finally setup with Verizon CC this past thursday. It's had 48 hours since then for indexing, etc. It's still painfully slow IMHO. Far slower than either the 8300 or the 6416-2.

3) The guide appeared to be correct. The recording shows that it recorded channel 801 and the correct content. The guide showed that Chuck was on that channel. But when you play it back, it's some non-HD christian channel. 

4) NONE of that either explains or justifies the "Grey Screen of Death" which required the reboot.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

I have two S3 units and two HD units, all with cablecards with service from Comcast. I'm not experiencing any of the problems you are having. All my units are working as expected, and I am completely satisfied.

However, if I was experiencing your level of dissatisfaction, and the Comcast or FiOS units met my needs, I'd return the TiVo HD. Your frustrations can be easily resolved by doing so, and you are definitely within the 30 day return window.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> 1) Cablecard. Yes, the cableco's hate them. I don't blame them. They suck. The technology sucks. The support sucks. It all sucks. I can't blame the Cablecos for that. We're asking them to support non-Cableco 3rd party devices (the Tivo) in addiiton to the CC themselves. But, I really don't care who is responsible. Just that it's a major pain. AND expensive.


As someone who has complained about Tivo a bit, this is entirely on the CableCo's end. They have to, by law, support them. They work great when supported right. It's up to the Cable Companies to support them. If there are any problems with them it is (almost certainly) the CaCo's fault and you should pin the blame on them entirely. If they don't support them well and you give up then they have totally gotten what they are aiming for.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

What level of Tivo software are you running?


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> 1) Cablecard. Yes, the cableco's hate them. I don't blame them. They suck. The technology sucks. The support sucks. It all sucks. I can't blame the Cablecos for that. We're asking them to support non-Cableco 3rd party devices (the Tivo) in addiiton to the CC themselves. But, I really don't care who is responsible. Just that it's a major pain. AND expensive.


Are you ready? The CABLECO'S suggested using cableCARDs 10 years ago! Now, they complain because they *HAVE* to use cableCARDs. They just never thought anybody would take them up on their suggestion and force them to use their own idea.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> OK, thanks for the reply but I'm no more comfortable or OK with the unit.


Return it.
It seems apparent that nothing anyone says here will make you more comfortable with your THD.

I have FiOS and two S3 TiVo's. I have no cablecard issues, and these units always record the correct show. I don't know if my S3's are faster than your THD, but they seem fine to me. MRV is great, TTCB is great, picture viewing is cool. I even have a home automation plugin for my TiVo that allows me to control my house through the TiVo interface. I HATED the Verizon provided DVR's (so did my wife) - there is no comparison. All that being said - you should DEFINITELY return yours and go back to your leased DVRs.

Jim H.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

OK, for the record - THESE ISSUES ARE NOT CABLECARD ISSUES!!!!!!!!

Tivo confirmed that the "grey screen of death" and the recording incorrect content is absolutely and completely NOT related to cablecard. I have a case number from Tivo.

The cablecard issue is a pain getting them set up. However, I could live with that. What I CANNOT live with is a lack of reliability and poor support AFTER they are setup, and for things clearly NOT related to cablecard. But rather, things COMPLETELY controlled by Tivo (Tivo proprietary software, Tivo hardware - period.)

The Tivo is definitely more expensive than either the Comcast or the Verizon DVRs - much more expensive when you combine the cc rental plus the Tivo fee, and then the Tivo purchase price. That's OK - so long as it works.

I've been told by others that the S3 is faster than the THD. Don't know that for sure. I could live with the slower speed, but it is a bit of a peeve.

Let me be perfectly clear. I could live with the higher cost and the somewhat sluggish performance as a tradeoff for the additional features. I cannot live with poor reliability and lackluster support - in other words, when Tivo support basically says "yes, these units sometimes just need to be rebooted - after all, they're running 24x7 and that's normal".


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

"in other words, when Tivo support basically says "yes, these units sometimes just need to be rebooted - after all, they're running 24x7 and that's normal"

I would question the context of that statement. I've owned various TiVo units for the past 7 years. They have only needed to reboot, as designed, at 2AM after a service update. My first TiVo, again 7 years old, is still in service and being used by a family member I gave it to. TiVo has been, without a doubt, the most useful and reliable piece of advanced consumer technology I have ever owned. And I have a large circle of friends and family, and they would say the same.

This has obviously not been your experience. You say that the problem is not cablecard related. But did either the Comcast or FiOS provided units use cablecards? Maybe you just happen to have a defective TiVo HD. As with all electronics, sometimes it happens. Have you thought about exchanging it?

But maybe you are at a point that no resolution will be satisfying. Maybe you are no longer really interested in the TiVo experience that most here enjoy. Maybe your own experience with TiVo and repeated references to a cost difference has you forever left with a negative opinion. If any of this is the case, then again, just return the TiVo HD. It's really that simple.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Why not just swap the unit out for a new one? It sounds like you may have got a bad unit.

Yes it means pairing the CC's to the new unit, but better that then what you have now/


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> OK, for the record .


DFTT


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jfh3 said:


> What level of Tivo software are you running?


Software version: 9.2a-01-02-652 according to the System Information screen.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

20TIL6 said:


> "in other words, when Tivo support basically says "yes, these units sometimes just need to be rebooted - after all, they're running 24x7 and that's normal"
> 
> I would question the context of that statement.
> 
> ...


No, I'm interested in a reliable service that's supported by somebody actually addressing an issue that has been widely reported - not a device that will lock up whenever it feels like it and is supported by an organization that says I should simply expect that and deal with it. If TiVo would have stepped up and even seemed SLIGHTLY concerned or willing to address this that would be one thing. However, they clearly and explicitly stated that I should just deal with it.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

pl1 said:


> DFTT


No troll here. Just somebody who "bought" a Tivo expecting it to be at least a little reliable. Guess that makes me a troll, huh? If that's the case, then sorry. I found this site after I bought Tivo. My bad.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Could somebody who has a THD comment on the following?

Go to the guide. Select a program. When prompted for "Record this showing", just press select to accept default recording config. I'm doing this right now. From the time I press "Select" to record the showing it takes 19 seconds for my guide to come back. Is that normal? It seems very consistent.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

wmhjr said:


> Could somebody who has a THD comment on the following?
> 
> Go to the guide. Select a program. When prompted for "Record this showing", just press select to accept default recording config. I'm doing this right now. From the time I press "Select" to record the showing it takes 19 seconds for my guide to come back. Is that normal? It seems very consistent.


Mine comes back rather quicly, not even 5 seconds.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> What I CANNOT live with is a lack of reliability and poor support AFTER they are setup, and for things clearly NOT related to cablecard. But rather, things COMPLETELY controlled by Tivo (Tivo proprietary software, Tivo hardware - period.)


Like I said - return it - problem solved. You seem to be trying to convince us of something.

I believe you. The product has not worked well for you. You are not happy with the support. You believe the product is inherently flawed. Get rid of it and move back to your leased DVR's. Why drag it out? Why belabor any longer than you have to?

Some of us have been lucky, are not suffering with major problems with our TiVo's, and are thrilled that our TiVo's have saved us from the horrible product that we received from our content providers. Your experience was different, and it does not look like it is a good match for you. Save yourself the grief and just move on. Maybe something better will come around down the road.

Good luck to you.

Jim H.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> No troll here. Just somebody who "bought" a Tivo expecting it to be at least a little reliable. Guess that makes me a troll, huh? If that's the case, then sorry. I found this site after I bought Tivo. My bad.


You're absolutely right. Don't be intimidated by Forum posters who don't realize that they're being counterproductive. TiVo reps. monitor these Forums and your experience is informative for them.

The new HDTiVo has experienced some issues which undoubtedly will take time to identify and correct with a s/w update. It's a known issue.

Mine has required a soft reboot twice to enable receiving the analog channels. (At first I thought I had a bad a/d encoder.)

I've had HDTiVo close to a couple of months now. The first reboot was required right after the original Guided Setup. A few weeks later I self installed an 'M' card which went uneventfully except that a second reboot was required after the install and the ensuing redo of Guided Setup.

I called TiVo immediately after the first reboot to establish a Case # and protect my warrantee rights if the reboot issue turned out to be a sleeper.

If you can exchange your HDTiVo do so! But give HDTiVo another chance.

TiVo has two attributes which are better than any other DVR. The first is its search capability (which I admit is largely wasted on me) the most comprehensive available from a DVR. Offering a DVR which enabled watching TV totally timeshifted through its advanced search capability was what drove TiVo's developers as a business model.

The second attribute, stemming from the requirements of the first, is TiVo's reliability. Cable and satellite DVR's have improved greatly, but TiVo is still the Gold Standard. Reliability, coupled with TiVo's ability to receive signals from more than one source, unlike a cable DVR, is why I have a variety of TiVo's.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TiVo Troll said:


> You're absolutely right. Don't be intimidated by Forum posters who don't realize that they're being counterproductive. TiVo reps. monitor these Forums and your experience is informative for them.
> 
> The new HDTiVo has experienced some issues which undoubtedly will take time to identify and correct with a s/w update. It's a known issue.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I guess I would have a slightly different perspective at this point. First that as a business model I agree about where Tivo started. However, as a slightly unrelated point, that business model is effectively dead. While the search on Tivo is clearly the best, the time-shifting market has been overtaken by lower end DVRs which are at a lower cost and offered on a zero up front investment model. That is why Tivo churn is way up, and Tivo subs are down. That's why Tivo absolutely must look toward licensing as opposed to just Tivo units in order to survive. JMHO.

For the second point, I would disagree about the reliability being the "gold standard". I had Dishnet 5xx DVRs for many years and they were incredibly reliable. Zero failures and very very few glitches. I've had 3 SA8300HDs for going on 3 years. Thus far, I'm seeing far lower reliability and "system performance" from Tivo. I am obviously seeing a far more robust feature set on the THD which is what drove me toward Tivo to begin with (now that there is an option for HD that doesn't have the ridiculous S3 price tag). My perception, supported by the GSOD thread, is that reliability is the single most weak point of the THD and that it is less reliable than any of the DVRs I've used (with one Dishnet exception a while back, and that unit was notably eliminated very quickly from the Dish product line).

Since I still have a little time left to play at no cost, and since I still have both Comcast and Verizon DVRs to compare now, I'm planning to wait a little just to get more experience with the THD. That being said, replacing it is out of the question. The next CC install appt I can get with Verizon is 3 weeks from now at the very earliest (as of last week). So, that would put me past the window for money back (and I purchased my THD from a retailer so Tivo cannot extend the unit return policy). Plus, I'm absolutely unwilling to pay for another service call to exchange the unit when there is no reason to believe that it will change anything. Now, if Tivo would pay for the service call that would be another thing. But I mentioned that last night during the call and there was clearly no opportunity for that. Tivo was quite firm. In fact, the entire Tivo support position was that it's working as designed, and to live with it. To be honest, that's the thing that put me over the edge - Tivo being completely unwilling to admit there was an issue, and Tivo insisting that I should just expect this total lack of reliability. It would be different if they even said they realize this is a problem and that they were working on it. But to just say that rebooting it fixed it so there's no problem - well, I have no appetite for that. Unfortunately, Tivo support is making both Comcast and Verizon look good!


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

> Plus, I'm absolutely unwilling to pay for another service call to exchange the unit when there is no reason to believe that it will change anything.


Some of the things you describe are not normal, but if you're unwilling to exchange the unit that's on you, but feel free to keep complaining.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

"Thanks. I guess I would have a slightly different perspective at this point. First that as a business model I agree about where Tivo started. However, as a slightly unrelated point, that business model is effectively dead. While the search on Tivo is clearly the best, the time-shifting market has been overtaken by lower end DVRs which are at a lower cost and offered on a zero up front investment model. That is why Tivo churn is way up, and Tivo subs are down. That's why Tivo absolutely must look toward licensing as opposed to just Tivo units in order to survive. JMHO."

And to think I thought about questioning your motivations for posting. 

Simply return the TiVo HD that you say you bought, then log on or call your broker and cover your short positions in TIVO.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

20TIL6 said:


> "
> And to think I thought about questioning your motivations for posting.
> 
> Simply return the TiVo HD that you say you bought, then log on or call your broker and cover your short positions in TIVO.


Uh, my motivations are that I BOUGHT a THD and expect it to work and get supported. If this were about Tivo shares I wouldn't have bought one, and spent all the time getting the CCs installed. You want the SN off the unit? How about a scanned copy of the receipt? Heck, how about an image of the unit sitting there connected to my machine?

But, I suppose if you're looking for a reason to disagree with me, then fine. Just go ahead and ignore the fact that the unit isn't reliable and flame me for caring about not getting what I paid for.....


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Langree said:


> Some of the things you describe are not normal, but if you're unwilling to exchange the unit that's on you, but feel free to keep complaining.


Search is our friend: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365824

This is one of the reasons exchanging it is not an option. Plus, maybe you missed the part where I cannot get another CC install scheduled until AFTER the money back promise ends?

The bottom line is that exchanging it means that

1) I need to pay another $29 or so for a service call.
2) I need to give up my option to return the unit for a refund.
3) I need to give up my option to get my service fee refunded.
4) I need to do all of this ignoring that Tivo said exchanging the unit is not necessary.
5) I need to ignore the above mentioned thread where people explicitly said that replacing their unit did not change this behavior.

Just want to make sure I understand.


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## bizzy (Jan 20, 2004)

I agree with the OP in regards to the quality of both the software and support. They have both turned to crap in the last six months.

Tivo support used to have at least a 50&#37; chance of answering a question correctly- now they spew as much random BS as your typical Cable Co. 1st tier support drone. Telling a new customer that he should expect to need to reboot his tivo on a regular basis illustrates the problem clearly.

Since the first 9.1 release I've been seeing core functions degraded and random failures, and no new benefit besides fluff that I don't need. Yes, TTG is nice, but I'd rather have working 30 second skip back. And don't start me on Rhapsody support. Why are engineering resources being devoted to selling me ANOTHER subscription service instead of fixing or simply NOT BREAKING existing code?

I fully support the OP's decision to return his THD. Were I in his position, I would as well. Since I am stuck with my S3, I guess I have to take whatever BS Tivo gives me, since it would be an expensive doorstop otherwise.


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## Bodie (Mar 12, 2003)

Original question asked and answered, but feel free to keep posting


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## debtoine (May 17, 2001)

wmhjr said:


> Search is our friend: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365824
> 
> This is one of the reasons exchanging it is not an option. Plus, maybe you missed the part where I cannot get another CC install scheduled until AFTER the money back promise ends?
> 
> ...


Where did you get your THD from? If it wasn't directly from Tivo, is there any chance you can go to that vendor and get it exchanged? You could always try sending a PM to TivoPony and see what comes of that. There are people from Tivo who read these boards and have been extremely helpful to a number of people who've experienced problems.

If you can get your unit even exchanged, don't call Comcast for another truck roll. When we had to exchange an S3 unit, I simply called our cable provider (Cablevision) and told them that we'd had a power outage and I needed to rebind the cards with the unit. Now, I knew how to install the cable cards since I'd printed out the directions and followed along with the tech when he first came out (it's actually rather easy). I'd already written down the card IDs before I put 'em in the box (S3 slots are in the back too, and our Tivo is in a rack system, so not as convenient to get to the back of it as the THD would be).

If you do a search, you'll see that people who have Comcast have also been successful at getting cards paired with new boxes by just calling.

Good luck. We actually left Directv when their new birds went up and our HR 10-250 was no longer supported.

deb


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## brywalker (Nov 13, 2002)

Threads like this are the reason that I have not jumped on the HD incarnations of TiVo yet.

Here is a dude that obviously cares about his TV watching experience. His expenditures on equipment and service alone shows that. Multiple DVRs, overlapping services, etc. He comes in here to post his experience with the device, lack of support, and general shoddyness of a real working solution and he gets labeled a troll because his post wasn't a TiVo zealot's wet dream.

Let me be straight here. I LOVE TiVo. I have been suffering with an 8300 for about 15 months now, which is 15 months too long. I have been chomping at the bit for a HD TiVo, but with the cablecard, lack of SDV solution, and interface speed/clunkiness reports I have been staying away.

If the HD is not for you, definitely return it. I totally understand not wanting to wait for another CC install, and pay more money for something that should have worked in the first place. Yes, the CC issues may be the cable company's problem, but thats how the TiVo was designed and should work as such.

I hope people aren't afraid to voice their concerns here, this is the only way that they are going to get fixed. If everyone sat back and shut up, TiVo wouldn't even exist.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Did you actually READ the thread you linked to?

Have YOU actually checked on some of the info given?

The Grey screen issue, I can't speak to, never happens to me. The system slowdown (to the extent) you speak of is not normal. 

Since you have every reason not to exchange it, cut your losses, box it up and return it. Why keep suffering with it if it sucks so bad?


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Langree said:


> Did you actually READ the thread you linked to?
> 
> Have YOU actually checked on some of the info given?
> 
> ...


Yes - I read every single post in the thread I linked to. Did you? I think not. As mentioned earlier in this post, I clearly stated I could live with the slower performance. However, the locking up and grey screen I cannot. The thread I linked to clearly shows that this behavior is far from rare with the THD, and that replacing the THD has NOT corrected the issue. It also clearly shows that it has nothing to do with either CC or with HDMI - as users NOT using either of those technologies are experiencing the problem. Further, it shows that Tivo has not addressed the issue even though they previously recognized it, but claimed that the 9.2 software would correct it. As demonstrated in the link, the 9.2 software in fact did nothing of the sort. It also shows that Tivo attempted to blame HDMI, yet that is an untruth as well because the link clearly demonstrates users who do NOT use HDMI are falling victim to the defect. The grey screen requiring to reboot issue is the primary and overwhelming reason I made this post. I unfortunately stumbled on the thread AFTER I purchased the unit.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

debtoine said:


> Where did you get your THD from? If it wasn't directly from Tivo, is there any chance you can go to that vendor and get it exchanged? You could always try sending a PM to TivoPony and see what comes of that. There are people from Tivo who read these boards and have been extremely helpful to a number of people who've experienced problems.
> 
> If you can get your unit even exchanged, don't call Comcast for another truck roll. When we had to exchange an S3 unit, I simply called our cable provider (Cablevision) and told them that we'd had a power outage and I needed to rebind the cards with the unit. Now, I knew how to install the cable cards since I'd printed out the directions and followed along with the tech when he first came out (it's actually rather easy). I'd already written down the card IDs before I put 'em in the box (S3 slots are in the back too, and our Tivo is in a rack system, so not as convenient to get to the back of it as the THD would be).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions. Here's the deal. I bought at BestBuy - mainly because it was so difficult to get my initial CC appointment and I wanted to get the unit immediately prior to the install date in order to preserve the moneyback period (rather than getting the unit from Tivo directly and having it sit there unused consuming part of the 30 day window before the CC could get installed). I could exchange it at BestBuy - however I cannot get another CC appointment.

This unit is on Verizon (I currently have both Verizon AND Comcast in my home, evaluating Fios and the THD before discontinuing Comcast service should I decide to do that). Verizon willl not - under any circumstances - reauthorize the CCs in a new unit without sending somebody. As a matter of fact, contrary to how most providers work, Verizon will not even allow you to turn in a DVR or any other hardware change without rolling a truck. The next VZ CC appointment I can get is all the way out beyond Dec 23rd. That means that the return window for the unit (even if exchanged) will expire prior to even being able to get the CCs moved. Tivo (during the work on Thursday) specified that even if I were to switch the CCs in the same unit (card 2 swapped with card 1 and vice versa) the cards would need to be reauthorized. VZ (who was on site at the time) confirmed this. So, the summary is that in order to exchange the unit I must commit to owning the unit and not being able to return it for a refund.

As mentioned earlier, Comcast tried for a complete day to get CC working and never succeeded. They then failed to show up the next day as promised (last saturday) and since I was planning to try Fios anyway, I just told them to forget it and I'd get VZ to deal with the CCs. As an aside, it appears as though Comcast users on the Moto network have been able to self-provision CCs. Those of us who are not "legacy" Comcast and are on SA (at least in my area) absolutely cannot do so. I've personally gone to the local Comcast office in addition to calling, and have been firmly denied.

So, I now plan to continue my evaluation of Comcast (8300HDs which at least can have external eSATA storage) compared to VZ Fios (Moto6416-2s which have all external ports disabled so no storage). I have 15 days from this past thursday to decide if I want to keep Fios TV (I already have Fios Voice and Data). Beyond that I'm on month to month with them so the risk is relatively low, just monthly costs. I can play around with the THD for another couple weeks and then I'll return it. That way I won't have to depend on it at all but can see how much change there is in unit behavior. At the most I'll only be out my time and the $2.99x2 for the cablecard fees.

But, based on the feedback here (including being accused of lying and not really having bought a THD) I can't imagine keeping the THD. I travel a lot and depend on the DVR to record what I need it to record. So, reliability is EVERYTHING. More important than search, TTG (which I probably wouldn't use anyway), MRV. To be honest, it probably really means that Verizon will go as well, because of the lack of external storage on the 6416-2 and the insufficent storage, combined with no MRV for any of the HD units. I'll probably be stuck with Comcast and the 8300HDs, much to my disappointment.


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## demark (Apr 15, 2002)

I know the feeling as I am about to return my THD for the second time.

The first (HD via OTA) would intermittently reboot when changing channels.
The second was connected to FiOS on Monday via dual CableCARDs. I was greeted this morning to a "Welcome! Powering up" screen that cannot be bypassed.

I am really disappointed because I spent the whole week weighing the Verizon vs Tivo option and finally decided on Tivo, based largely on the reliability of my 7.5 year old Series 1. I had planned on transferring that lifetime to this unit in the next few days (as the THD was purchased Nov 3). However, I don't think I can justify the 4+ year "breakeven" point for the THD option given the initial reliability issues.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

wmhjr said:


> Bottom line, how common of a situation is this? Why would people accept such obviously poor performance and support? Yeah, I'm frustrated. But the proof is in the pudding.


Cable card hassles - fairly common but TiVo does not get to train the people coming to your house or the billing dept. Once the acrads are in place and you have the latest software it should all calm down and work very well.

Recording wrong show - not very common at all. I have a Tivo HD without cable cards and it recorded everything just fine, including Chuck. Give the Tivo another week and see how it goes.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> Thanks. I guess I would have a slightly different perspective at this point. First that as a business model I agree about where Tivo started. However, as a slightly unrelated point, that business model is effectively dead. While the search on Tivo is clearly the best, the time-shifting market has been overtaken by lower end DVRs which are at a lower cost and offered on a zero up front investment model. That is why Tivo churn is way up, and Tivo subs are down. That's why Tivo absolutely must look toward licensing as opposed to just Tivo units in order to survive. JMHO.


IMHO, for casual timeshifting other DVR's are just as useful perhaps, but not for the TiVo concept of Total Timeshifting (which I don't want or use, BTW. I'm in the minority of TiVo users, very politically incorrect (for a TiVo user), just wanting a DVR, nothing more, nothing less)



> For the second point, I would disagree about the reliability being the "gold standard". I had Dishnet 5xx DVRs for many years and they were incredibly reliable. Zero failures and very very few glitches. I've had 3 SA8300HDs for going on 3 years.


Yours is an interesting observation. I go back to the beginning with the Dishplayer; before it was a DVR, just a pause and play device. Then Dish added DVR service for a fee. (The way Dish's DVR service was initially introduced caused me to hate DVR Service monthly fees to this day. I've got (too) many TiVo's, all with Lifetime Service.)

Because of its engineering configuration (a strange push-me-pull-you design between Echostar amd Microsoft) the Dishplayer had to be the glitchiest DVR ever. Its replacement, the 501 (?) was better, but still deserved no cigars. If Dish DVR's are now as reliable as TiVo's I'm impressed. I do like their dual units' capabilities of providing separate outputs to 2 TV's. (How comprehensive are Dish DVR's search capabilities? Early on they basically provided little more than timeslot recording, similiar to a VCR's manual timer.)



> Thus far, I'm seeing far lower reliability and "system performance" from Tivo. I am obviously seeing a far more robust feature set on the THD which is what drove me toward Tivo to begin with (now that there is an option for HD that doesn't have the ridiculous S3 price tag). My perception, supported by the GSOD thread, is that reliability is the single most weak point of the THD and that it is less reliable than any of the DVRs I've used (with one Dishnet exception a while back, and that unit was notably eliminated very quickly from the Dish product line).


My experience with HDTiVo, as related in the earlier post, has been different. While appeantly there's a software glitch, HDTiVo in general doesn't suffer from near the number of problems you've reported. You owe it to yourself to get another before making a conclusive evaluation of it. HDTiVo is, IMHO, the best TiVo DVR available, considering both price and functionality.



> Since I still have a little time left to play at no cost, and since I still have both Comcast and Verizon DVRs to compare now, I'm planning to wait a little just to get more experience with the THD. That being said, replacing it is out of the question. The next CC install appt I can get with Verizon is 3 weeks from now at the very earliest (as of last week). So, that would put me past the window for money back (and I purchased my THD from a retailer so Tivo cannot extend the unit return policy). Plus, I'm absolutely unwilling to pay for another service call to exchange the unit when there is no reason to believe that it will change anything.


So just return it; then buy another later with the 30 day return window. But if not, perhaps its time to just fade away; you're not giving TiVo a fair shake!



> Now, if Tivo would pay for the service call that would be another thing. But I mentioned that last night during the call and there was clearly no opportunity for that. Tivo was quite firm. In fact, the entire Tivo support position was that it's working as designed, and to live with it. To be honest, that's the thing that put me over the edge - Tivo being completely unwilling to admit there was an issue, and Tivo insisting that I should just expect this total lack of reliability. It would be different if they even said they realize this is a problem and that they were working on it. But to just say that rebooting it fixed it so there's no problem - well, I have no appetite for that. Unfortunately, Tivo support is making both Comcast and Verizon look good!


Don't judge TiVo, or any other company, by a service rep. How many reps. at what levels did you actually talk to? My experience with TiVo customer service has generally been excellent, even though I find TiVo's billing plans convoluted and confusing. Comcast reps., OTOH, haven't been nearly as knowledgable.

(I once bought fraudulent Lifetime Service from an eBay seller and it took TiVo 2 1/2 mo. to discover that it was obtained from an ineligible source. TiVo pulled it from the DVR on my account with no warning. Fortunately I always pay eBay listings with PayPal funded from a credit card and the CC refunded my money ($512) after I disputed the charge.)

In general today's digital technology is often nowhere near as reliable as earlier mature technologies have been. However TiVo is one of the more reliable digitally based products currently available.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. Here's the deal. I bought at BestBuy - mainly because it was so difficult to get my initial CC appointment and I wanted to get the unit immediately prior to the install date in order to preserve the moneyback period (rather than getting the unit from Tivo directly and having it sit there unused consuming part of the 30 day window before the CC could get installed). I could exchange it at BestBuy - however I cannot get another CC appointment.
> 
> This unit is on Verizon (I currently have both Verizon AND Comcast in my home, evaluating Fios and the THD before discontinuing Comcast service should I decide to do that). Verizon willl not - under any circumstances - reauthorize the CCs in a new unit without sending somebody. As a matter of fact, contrary to how most providers work, Verizon will not even allow you to turn in a DVR or any other hardware change without rolling a truck. The next VZ CC appointment I can get is all the way out beyond Dec 23rd. That means that the return window for the unit (even if exchanged) will expire prior to even being able to get the CCs moved. Tivo (during the work on Thursday) specified that even if I were to switch the CCs in the same unit (card 2 swapped with card 1 and vice versa) the cards would need to be reauthorized. VZ (who was on site at the time) confirmed this. So, the summary is that in order to exchange the unit I must commit to owning the unit and not being able to return it for a refund.


Verizon does NOT pair the cards to the TiVo. Cards can be swapped from one unit to another without a truck roll. More info here. Go pick up a new unit and swap the cards out TODAY.


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## Heinrich (Feb 28, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. Here's the deal. I bought at BestBuy - mainly because it was so difficult to get my initial CC appointment and I wanted to get the unit immediately prior to the install date in order to preserve the moneyback period (rather than getting the unit from Tivo directly and having it sit there unused consuming part of the 30 day window before the CC could get installed). I could exchange it at BestBuy - however I cannot get another CC appointment.
> 
> This unit is on Verizon (I currently have both Verizon AND Comcast in my home, evaluating Fios and the THD before discontinuing Comcast service should I decide to do that). Verizon willl not - under any circumstances - reauthorize the CCs in a new unit without sending somebody. As a matter of fact, contrary to how most providers work, Verizon will not even allow you to turn in a DVR or any other hardware change without rolling a truck. The next VZ CC appointment I can get is all the way out beyond Dec 23rd. That means that the return window for the unit (even if exchanged) will expire prior to even being able to get the CCs moved. Tivo (during the work on Thursday) specified that even if I were to switch the CCs in the same unit (card 2 swapped with card 1 and vice versa) the cards would need to be reauthorized. VZ (who was on site at the time) confirmed this. So, the summary is that in order to exchange the unit I must commit to owning the unit and not being able to return it for a refund.
> 
> ...


You've definitely had a bad experience...but I have 1 Tivo Series 1, 1 Tivo Series 2, and 1 Tivo Series 3. After 3 visits to get my Series 3 working, we suspected a bad unit. I received a replacement from Costco, and the second one went up on the first try and has been 100% reliable after that. That's been my only reliability issue with Tivo.

I think you're missing out on the non-Tivo DVR. They are junk....that's what drove me from Comcast to DirectTV in 2004 and is what has driven me back to Comcast in 2007. I understand they are more developed than they were. When I tried non-Tivo DVRs they were a VCR with a hard drive and that's pretty much it.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

wmhjr said:


> Yes - I read every single post in the thread I linked to. Did you? I think not. As mentioned earlier in this post, I clearly stated I could live with the slower performance. However, the locking up and grey screen I cannot. The thread I linked to clearly shows that this behavior is far from rare with the THD, and that replacing the THD has NOT corrected the issue. It also clearly shows that it has nothing to do with either CC or with HDMI - as users NOT using either of those technologies are experiencing the problem. Further, it shows that Tivo has not addressed the issue even though they previously recognized it, but claimed that the 9.2 software would correct it. As demonstrated in the link, the 9.2 software in fact did nothing of the sort. It also shows that Tivo attempted to blame HDMI, yet that is an untruth as well because the link clearly demonstrates users who do NOT use HDMI are falling victim to the defect. The grey screen requiring to reboot issue is the primary and overwhelming reason I made this post. I unfortunately stumbled on the thread AFTER I purchased the unit.


And has been stated multiple times in the various threads, it is expected there are multiple different causes for the behavior. That makes sense; there are dozens of things that can go wrong, but only a handful of possible symptoms. Most of your post is simply wrong.

1. It has not been shown that replacing the THD doesn't work. It has worked for some and not others.
2. It has not been shown that CC's do not cause the symptom. (It doesn't cause the symptom for some people, but they may have a different root cause.)
3. It has not been shown that HDMI does not cause the symptom. (Evidence is fairly strong, IMO, that it does cause the symptoms for some).
4. 9.2 corrected signal problems for a limited number of people only (those in particular locations with SA cablecards), but it did fix things for them.

I'm sorry you have the symptoms, but short term you're going to continue to have them unless you change something. Unfortunately there is no single silver bullet that solves everybody's problems here, and to expect there will be shows lack of understanding. You're not willing to try things, and I can empathize with that, but you have to realize that limits your chances of success.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> And has been stated multiple times in the various threads, it is expected there are multiple different causes for the behavior. That makes sense; there are dozens of things that can go wrong, but only a handful of possible symptoms. Most of your post is simply wrong.
> 
> 1. It has not been shown that replacing the THD doesn't work. It has worked for some and not others.
> 2. It has not been shown that CC's do not cause the symptom. (It doesn't cause the symptom for some people, but they may have a different root cause.)
> ...


I'm sorry, but strongly disagree with your statements above. It is extremely clear that the "Grey Screen of Death" (GSOD) occurs with people not even using CC. It is extremely clear that it occurs with people using neither CC or HDMI. It is also clear from that thread that there is absolutely no consistent reports of unit replacement correcting the issue. To the contrary, that thread indicates that replacing the unit in fact does NOT typically solve the issue. Further that thread indicates that Tivo was already aware of the issue and that Tivo had labeled it a SW issue.

The problem is that the issue is intermittent. Therefore, from a FMEA or C&E perspective, the fact that those users reporting the issue, (comprising both CC users, non-CC users, HDMI users and non-HDMI users) report that issues persist AFTER the 9.2 upgrade. Also, as I mention, I'm already at 9.2 (therefore eliminating 9.2 as a solution as a fact). If there is any correlation at all, it frankly points to NETWORK activity (Ethernet - not video). However, the fact that the Tivo operates over the network on its own schedule honestly makes confirming that quite a bit more difficult.

Furthermore, from my reading the 9.2 upgrade did NOT even correct SA GSOD issue. Perhaps I read incorrectly.

In other words, there is no evidence in the referenced thread that anyone has a clue why this is happening, however there is ample evidence that this is a software/design issue and NOT a defective individual unit issue.

But, I (along with the other people experiencing the issue) could certainly be wrong. Perhaps my unit isn't in fact experiencing the GSOD. Perhaps I'm just seeing things (or not seeing things)


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> I'm sorry, but strongly disagree with your statements above. It is extremely clear that the "Grey Screen of Death" (GSOD)


Doesn't sound like you are in the mood for a correction, but here goes, the GSOD is not GREY. It is a GREEN SCREEN OF DEATH "A Severe Error has occurred&#8230;" screen (GSOD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiVo

The GSoD text reads as follows:

A severe error has occurred. 
Please leave the Receiver plugged in and connected 
to the phone line for the next three hours while the 
Receiver attempts to repair itself. 
DO NOT UNPLUG OR RESTART THE RECEIVER. 
If, after three hours, the Receiver does not restart 
itself, call Customer Care.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

wmhjr said:


> I'm sorry, but strongly disagree with your statements above. It is extremely clear that the "Grey Screen of Death" (GSOD) occurs with people not even using CC. It is extremely clear that it occurs with people using neither CC or HDMI. It is also clear from that thread that there is absolutely no consistent reports of unit replacement correcting the issue.


I absolutely agree with all of these statements. But they are very different from your original claims. There is no proof that there is a single cause for the gray screen of death, and therefore we don't know that HDMI is not causing* some* of the gray screens. We don't know that hardware problems are not causing *some* of the gray screens. I think it's likely that HDMI issues, hardware problems, and ethernet are ALL causing some of the gray screens.


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## Rucker (Sep 21, 2006)

I suspect there are multiple possible causes for a gray screen, but here are the ones I've experienced:
1. Poor (or no) signal. Went away after fixing the signal (e.g. tightening a connection or removing a splitter).
2. Channel off the air. I've noticed this a few times with ESPNHD. For whatever reason, the game was blacked out and instead of showing something else, the channel was just off the air until the game was over. Other channels were fine of course. (And the non-HD ESPN showed a different game in at least one case.)
3. Following an extensive cable company maintenance (which I found out about because a number of people complained about it on dslreports.com), my S3 displayed the gray screen on all channels. I had to reboot to fix it.

I've had the S3 for a little over a year. I've had to reboot it 3 times. Once for the gray screen issue, once because it locked up while setting up my wireless network adapter, and once because it locked up after half loading a menu screen (I forget where).

Btw, my THD is much slower than my S3.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

As far as the gray screen, I can say I've never gotten it on my S3, but my THD got it within a week a few times, but after it settled in, it's been flawless, so the occasional gray happens on THD units. It's been a month, and simply flawless performance on my THD.

(just adding a data point)


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> I'm sorry, but strongly disagree with your statements above. It is extremely clear that the "Grey Screen of Death" (GSOD) occurs with people not even using CC. It is extremely clear that it occurs with people using neither CC or HDMI. It is also clear from that thread that there is absolutely no consistent reports of unit replacement correcting the issue. To the contrary, that thread indicates that replacing the unit in fact does NOT typically solve the issue. Further that thread indicates that Tivo was already aware of the issue and that Tivo had labeled it a SW issue.
> ...
> In other words, there is no evidence in the referenced thread that anyone has a clue why this is happening, however there is ample evidence that this is a software/design issue and NOT a defective individual unit issue.
> 
> But, I (along with the other people experiencing the issue) could certainly be wrong. Perhaps my unit isn't in fact experiencing the GSOD. Perhaps I'm just seeing things (or not seeing things)


YOUR issues go considerably above the norm. Why not replace the HDTiVo to see whether doing so makes a difference? The fact that it may not doesn't mean it definitely won't.

All the time spent fussing could be used instead to try something new.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

pl1 said:


> Doesn't sound like you are in the mood for a correction, but here goes, the GSOD is not GREY. It is a GREEN SCREEN OF DEATH "A Severe Error has occurred" screen (GSOD).


Yeah, that's a whole 'nother story. The grey screen on HDTiVo is empty (no program showing) but menus operate normally.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

dianebrat said:


> As far as the gray screen, I can say I've never gotten it on my S3, but my THD got it within a week a few times, but after it settled in, it's been flawless, so the occasional gray happens on THD units. It's been a month, and simply flawless performance on my THD.


I get a grey screen on my two series 3 units anytime I go to a channel I do not receive or that is not coming in properly. AAMOF, I get a grey screen on every channel I tune to for a few seconds until the picture comes in. But, I really don't notice it very often since I don't really channel surf.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

pl1 said:


> Doesn't sound like you are in the mood for a correction, but here goes, the GSOD is not GREY. It is a GREEN SCREEN OF DEATH "A Severe Error has occurred" screen (GSOD).
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiVo
> 
> ...


No, I'm not in the mood for in incorrect correction. I used that term relative to the link I posted. The link about GREY SCREEN. That's why I put (GSOD) AFTER I spelled out "Grey Screen", and relative to the actual link, and relative to exactly what I (and others) continue to experience.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TiVo Troll said:


> YOUR issues go considerably above the norm. Why not replace the HDTiVo to see whether doing so makes a difference? The fact that it may not doesn't mean it definitely won't.
> 
> All the time spent fussing could be used instead to try something new.


Please read the previous posts in this thread and you'll hopefully understand why. Suffice it to say that it is not possible within the money back period.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> No, I'm not in the mood for in incorrect correction. I used that term relative to the link I posted. The link about GREY SCREEN. That's why I put (GSOD) AFTER I spelled out "Grey Screen", and relative to the actual link, and relative to exactly what I (and others) continue to experience.


You've got your answer - either return your unit or exchange it. Stop whining about the unit you've got now, other forum posters, Tivo's quality control, Tivo's business model, or whatever else you're in the "mood" to complain about. What little sympathy you might have gotten initially has quickly disappeared.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Rucker said:


> I suspect there are multiple possible causes for a gray screen, but here are the ones I've experienced:
> 1. Poor (or no) signal. Went away after fixing the signal (e.g. tightening a connection or removing a splitter).
> 2. Channel off the air. I've noticed this a few times with ESPNHD. For whatever reason, the game was blacked out and instead of showing something else, the channel was just off the air until the game was over. Other channels were fine of course. (And the non-HD ESPN showed a different game in at least one case.)
> 3. Following an extensive cable company maintenance (which I found out about because a number of people complained about it on dslreports.com), my S3 displayed the gray screen on all channels. I had to reboot to fix it.
> ...


Signal in my case is extremely good. Only one splitter in the entire delivery. All very top notch infrastructure.
Can't address the channel not on the air - except for the fact that it shouldn't happen. If the channel is not on the air at the moment but causes the unit to lock up, then it is unacceptable. It eliminates the use of "Suggestions" as you cannot determine if a particular channel which might be used by "Suggestions" might get hit.
I guess I'm glad that you say the S3 is faster. I've gotten that feedback from others, and it helps to know that I'm not imagining things.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TexasAg said:


> You've got your answer - either return your unit or exchange it. Stop whining about the unit you've got now, other forum posters, Tivo's quality control, Tivo's business model, or whatever else you're in the "mood" to complain about. What little sympathy you might have gotten initially has quickly disappeared.


Didn't ask for any sympathy - or any fanboys.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

CrispyCritter said:


> I absolutely agree with all of these statements. But they are very different from your original claims. There is no proof that there is a single cause for the gray screen of death, and therefore we don't know that HDMI is not causing* some* of the gray screens. We don't know that hardware problems are not causing *some* of the gray screens. I think it's likely that HDMI issues, hardware problems, and ethernet are ALL causing some of the gray screens.


I think we agree. However the point is that there are existing users out there (as evidenced by the thread) who use neither CC nor HDMI, who have been upgraded to 9.2, who have exchanged their unit, and who still experience the issue. To me that pretty much sums up that there MUST be a SW issue.


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> Didn't ask for any sympathy - or any fanboys.


Ahh, the "fanboys" name comes out. I see it's generally used around here when someone just wants to whine about something. But that's not you, right? You're just "moody."


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Rucker said:


> I suspect there are multiple possible causes for a gray screen, but here are the ones I've experienced:


BTW, one other addition....

People on that other thread seem to be perceiving that network access could be a trigger. At least that seems to be the concensus from a number of people who have experienced the issue more consistently when using things like TTG, photo displays, MRV, etc

That seemed like an important item of information.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TexasAg said:


> Ahh, the "fanboys" name comes out. I see it's generally used around here when someone just wants to whine about something. But that's not you, right? You're just "moody."


No, it's used about people who frankly don't want to hear anything that isn't positive about something they are emotionally attached to, regardless of any actual issues that may in fact exist. I'm trying not to be personal here but when people attack just because somebody isn't happy and when there are legitimate concerns, well....

If everyone behaved that way, little improvement would be made.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

TexasAg said:


> Ahh, the "fanboys" name comes out. I see it's generally used around here when someone just wants to whine about something. But that's not you, right? You're just "moody."


He doesn't want to take the steps to actually solve his issue, it's much easier to point at other threads and assume that his issues cannot be fixed.

He was even told another truck roll would not be needed, he has the cards.

So at this point I think he's just trolling.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

wmhjr said:


> BTW, one other addition....
> 
> People on that other thread seem to be perceiving that network access could be a trigger. At least that seems to be the concensus from a number of people who have experienced the issue more consistently when using things like TTG, photo displays, MRV, etc
> 
> That seemed like an important item of information.


So does this relate to you? Or just these other people?


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## TexasAg (Apr 2, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> No, it's used about people who frankly don't want to hear anything that isn't positive about something they are emotionally attached to, regardless of any actual issues that may in fact exist. I'm trying not to be personal here but when people attack just because somebody isn't happy and when there are legitimate concerns, well....
> 
> If everyone behaved that way, little improvement would be made.


Dude, you have 3 options, only one of which really involves you sitting here on an on-line forum complaining about Tivo's business model.

(1) Keep the unit until the 30-day period expires, then complain about how bad Tivo is for not letting you return a defective unit. Some talk of a class action lawsuit would really help. We haven't had one of those threads for at least a week.

(2) Return the unit for a full refund within the 30-day period and use the Motorola DVRs from Verizon. Just don't complain when the Motorola fails to record something, then when you try to record it manually you are told it's already being recorded. That was my favorite little gem from my time with the Motorola.

(3) Exchange the unit. Of course, you could have done that several days ago and seen whether the new unit did the same thing.

And "emotionally attached"? Really? To a DVR?



Langree said:


> He doesn't want to take the steps to actually solve his issue, it's much easier to point at other threads and assume that his issues cannot be fixed.
> 
> He was even told another truck roll would not be needed, he has the cards.
> 
> So at this point I think he's just trolling.


Agree. So no more feeding.


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## TimAtkins1 (Nov 7, 2007)

I understand from the thread that you are frustrated that your "bake off" plan has not been without issue. But isn't the whole point of the bake off to assess the strength and weaknesses of the various products and services. You've already judged the TiVo HD (or are unwilling to try anything to solve the issues) so return it and be done with it.

BTW, speaking as a Verizon Fios TV subscriber whose had the FIOS HDDVR and now have TiVO HD, suffice it to say that TiVo HD blows the FIOS HDDVR away. Fios's guide data sucks so missed recordings happen fairly frequently, the interface on the Fios unit (at least v1.0) is junk, the fan is loud as hell and there is not nearly enough space on the unit. If you read the Fios TV forum on dslreports.com, you'll know the v2.0 of the Fios HDDVR software was an abomindation such that Verizon stopped rolling it out and the recently released patch has its own problems.

Verizon had a bit of problem getting the CC pairing to work, but it was a well known Verizon issue, not a TiVo issue. I also had to attenuate the signal down on the TiVo HD from the Verizon split by about 10db as Fios signal is too hot for the TiVo HD (again, a well known issue). Other than that, TiVo HD + Fios TV is a compelling good combination.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> No, I'm not in the mood for in incorrect correction. I used that term relative to the link I posted. The link about GREY SCREEN. That's why I put (GSOD) AFTER I spelled out "Grey Screen", and relative to the actual link, and relative to exactly what I (and others) continue to experience.


A grey screen does not crash the OS. That is what the GSOD is. It goes back to the BSOD from Microsoft. Whatever.


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## Interpol (Nov 13, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> The next VZ CC appointment I can get is all the way out beyond Dec 23rd. That means that the return window for the unit (even if exchanged) will expire prior to even being able to get the CCs moved. Tivo (during the work on Thursday) specified that even if I were to switch the CCs in the same unit (card 2 swapped with card 1 and vice versa) the cards would need to be reauthorized. VZ (who was on site at the time) confirmed this. So, the summary is that in order to exchange the unit I must commit to owning the unit and not being able to return it for a refund.


So why not:

1. Cancel your Tivo service and get a refund
2. Remove the cablecards, return the Tivo HD box to Best Buy, and get a full refund
3. Wait a day
4. Return to Best Buy and buy another Tivo HD

Voila, you've got yourself another 30 days. Or am I missing something here?


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## bcwaller (Nov 6, 2007)

FWIW I just had CC installed on a Series 3 (my first TiVo ever) on Verizon FiOS. I called for the appointment Saturday and had them come by Monday AM. All done and installed.

If you are considering FiOS and your cable provider and must have a DVR, stay away from FiOS until they fix the DVR software. Sure, it is a 6416, but it is hobbled and buggy. You get half capacity, menus that are confusing, features that sometimes work and sometimes don't, series recordings that often don't record, and more. After three months with the awful FiOS DVR, I bought the TiVo. I'm already happier and I have not watched a show yet.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> Please read the previous posts in this thread and you'll hopefully understand why. Suffice it to say that it is not possible within the money back period.


Why don't you re-read *post #34* in this thread which dealt precisely with that issue?

*"So just return it; then buy another later with the 30 day return window. But if not, perhaps its time to just fade away; you're not giving TiVo a fair shake!*


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

Interpol said:


> Or am I missing something here?


You are probably on to something. I think we are all missing something here.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Langree said:


> He doesn't want to take the steps to actually solve his issue, it's much easier to point at other threads and assume that his issues cannot be fixed.
> 
> He was even told another truck roll would not be needed, he has the cards.
> 
> So at this point I think he's just trolling.


Look, how many times do you need to be told that a truck has to be rolled? I've read the other thread (have you?). That thread, Tivo support AND Verizon ALL state that the truck would need to roll. All of them. So, you expect me to just take your word that the truck will not be required? Are you a Tivo tech? Do you take Tivo calls? Why are you so insistent that everyone they are all lying? The thread that Martin Tupper pointed out earlier here also specifically stated that "NEWER FIRMWARE CABLECARDS COULD NOT BE SWAPPED". Did you miss that part?


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

Look, it's obvious that this thread is not about solutions, it's about complaining.

Posts that contain good ways of dealing with some of the problems, like ways around the 30 day return issue, and ways to avoid another truck roll, are carefully ignored by the OP.

He is not interested in any posts that suggest that he actually do something.

That is his right. He is sour on TiVo. He has good reason to be annoyed. He is not interested in "waisting" time on -possible- solutions. He just wants to use this forum to lash out at TiVo and let them know that some people are non too happy with the product.

Thankfully, many of us have not suffered in the same way he has. Quite the opposite, our TiVo's have spared us the suffering from our content providers DVRs. We like the product, and want to help when help is welcome. It is not welcome in this case, and that's just fine. I justed wanted to call this thread out for what it is.

Eventually the OP will return his TiVo and will hopefully be happy with whatever else he winds up with. Maybe TiVo can get something from his comments, although I don't think there's much new here.

To wmhjr - I hope you find something that works well for you. It's frustrating when things don't seem to work as they should. Good luck.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Langree said:


> So does this relate to you? Or just these other people?


It's hard to say. In the case of one grey screen, I just just gone to Tivo Central, Now Playing and then looked at the content downloaded via Ethernet. In the case of another, I was not using anything "nework related". However, the problem is (as stated before) that you just don't know. In the background the Tivo is using the ethernet connection when it wants and I have no way of knowing other than by sniffing the LAN.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

Is there _*any*_ outcome you'll accept other than returning the TiVo HD? Why haven't you already done so? There doesn't appear to be any way for TiVo or any poster to satisfy you. What do you want?


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

jhimmel said:


> Look, it's obvious that this thread is not about solutions, it's about complaining.
> 
> Posts that contain good ways of dealing with some of the problems, like ways around the 30 day return issue, and ways to avoid another truck roll, are carefully ignored by the OP.
> 
> ...


Your post is quite incorrect. However, people keep making patently false statements here (I don't want to go far as say lying, but it's starting to get pretty darned close) and it's getting a bit frustrating.

I can not - repeat - can not - swap the unit without a truck roll. Period.

That has been confirmed by Tivo AND Verizon.

Perhaps one thing people are not aware of is that all VZ cc's are not the same (and frankly not all Fios is the same). For example, in some locations Fios TV has lower tier locals in analog, meaning that a cable ready TV directly connected to RG6 will still get those channels. In other locations (such as here) it is strictly digital and without a decoder absolutely no content is available.

The post that was pointed out supposedly showing me that I could swap the cards myself without a truck roll ALSO said that this was the case for older firmware cards, and that this was apparently not possible for newer firmware cards. Did anybody read that?

It's funny that people in this thread "carefully" avoid acknowledging that the folks in the other thread are experiencing serious stability issues. It's funny that they "carefully" ignore the content of that thread and try to blame the issues on signal, CC, the cable provider, or pretty much anything BUT the THD.

This is not about "wasting time". That's such a ridiculous statement considering what I've ALREADY done that it is hilarious. I've installed a complete dual RG6 distribution cable plant to provide service from two different cablecos at the same time. I've got THREE different DVR types (including the THD) active and connected to the HD set at the same time.

This is about having some reasonably confident solution that doesn't result in waiting another 3 weeks for a cable truck to roll, and costs another $20 or $30 or so. Since nobody on that other thread seems to have found a single solution that corrects the issue, I can't see how anyone can be confident about that.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

pl1 said:


> A grey screen does not crash the OS. That is what the GSOD is. It goes back to the BSOD from Microsoft. Whatever.


Um, did the other thread not deal with the "Grey screen" (or the black screen)? Yes.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Interpol said:


> So why not:
> 
> 1. Cancel your Tivo service and get a refund
> 2. Remove the cablecards, return the Tivo HD box to Best Buy, and get a full refund
> ...


Yes, you are. That works. EXCEPT then need to schedule another cablecard install and pay the service fee. At this point the next install (unless there is a cancellation) is after Xmas.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

minckster said:


> Is there _*any*_ outcome you'll accept other than returning the TiVo HD? Why haven't you already done so? There doesn't appear to be any way for TiVo or any poster to satisfy you. What do you want?


Tivo could acknowledge the defect and provide both a workaround to mnimize the risk and a tentative date for a fix? The reason this was initially posted was in the obviously ridiculous chance that Tivo was here listening and would/could respond - or that somebody here "close" to Tivo would be able to provide feedback.

However, since all people want to do is defend Tivo it seems clear that this is very unlikely.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Um, did the other thread not deal with the "Grey screen" (or the black screen)? Yes.


Windows has a BSOD (Blue Screen Of Death.) TiVo has the GSOD (Green Screen Of Death.) I'm not sure which came out first (or if maybe Linux also has the GSOD). But, in both cases, it has to do with the OS (Operating System) crashing. That's all I'm saying.


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## jhimmel (Dec 27, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> This is not about "wasting time". That's such a ridiculous statement considering what I've ALREADY done that it is hilarious. I've installed a complete dual RG6 distribution cable plant to provide service from two different cablecos at the same time. I've got THREE different DVR types (including the THD) active and connected to the HD set at the same time.
> 
> This is about having some reasonably confident solution that doesn't result in waiting another 3 weeks for a cable truck to roll, and costs another $20 or $30 or so. Since nobody on that other thread seems to have found a single solution that corrects the issue, I can't see how anyone can be confident about that.


Isn't that exactly what I just said??? You don't want to waste time on -possible- solutions. You also don't want to return your current unit, get another, and wait for new cards. You really don't WANT to DO -anything-, except return the unit which has inherent design flaws and complain here in these forums. I don't see anything wrong with my characterization of your intent. I'm not even saying you are doing anything wrong. I'm just calling it for what it is.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Tivo could acknowledge the defect and provide both a workaround to mnimize the risk and a tentative date for a fix? The reason this was initially posted was in the obviously ridiculous chance that Tivo was here listening and would/could respond - or that somebody here "close" to Tivo would be able to provide feedback.
> 
> However, since all people want to do is defend Tivo it seems clear that this is very unlikely.


Why not post your issues to TiVo's HELP FORUMS then? Maybe there is a better chance that your message will get through? Nobody here works for TiVo and the site is not run by TiVo. It says that on the top of this forum under the TiVo logo.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> Your post is quite incorrect. However, people keep making patently false statements here (I don't want to go far as say lying, but it's starting to get pretty darned close) and it's getting a bit frustrating.
> 
> I can not - repeat - can not - swap the unit without a truck roll. Period.
> 
> ...


No, no I didn't. I re-read this thread that I posted earlier. The poster who "vaguely remember a post on either here or AVS" appears to have service through _Time Warner Cable_, NOT Verizon. I have yet to read a post from a Verizon subscriber who has failed at swapping the cards.

Furthermore, I am not aware that Verizon uses anything but single-tuner Motorola cards. What cards do you have? What firmware version are they running? If you are concerned that your particular cards might not be swappable, why not post to that thread and ask the people who have successfully swapped their cards what version they are running?

What do you have to lose?


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## mlvnsmly (Oct 24, 2007)

FYI, with the Best Buy holiday return policy you have until January 31, 2008 for all returns exchanges. You're paying for two cable services right now, so $29 can't be that big of a gamble. Also, have you checked your FIOS signal strength; based on what you've said, it may be way to strong for your tivo. If you're showing a s/n ratio higher than 31-32, then you need to attenuate your signal. Don't be fooled by your signal strength meter showing 100, that doesn't matter.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

OK, so here's a suggestion. Since so many of you believe that not only am I wrong about swapping cc cards into another tivo, but also believe that Tivo support AND Verizon is wrong......

First, let me be clear about the situation. I am currently paying about $111/mo for Comcast service and DVRs. I am additionally (at the same time) paying about $90/mo for Verizon service and DVRs. I can terminate the Verizon service (soon) without owing them anything. After that, it's month to month with no pro-rating. If I disconnect Comcast and decide that neither the THD nor the VZ Moto box are OK, then I'd need to pay a hefty re-install fee for that. If I terminate VZ and want to put it in a few weeks/months from now, then I pay another install charge. So, the idea of pushing trying another THD out more than another 1.5 weeks or so really means a minimum of $100 cost for me. That would be in addition to any required truck rolls to "reauthorize" swapping CCs. So the potential cost for me is an additional cost at least equaling 50% of the actual THD purchase price - on the "chance" that the issue is resolved. Maybe that makes it easier to understand.

However, since everyone is SO convinced that VZ, Tivo and myself are wrong about the cablcard swapping thing, how about this? Next week I'll pick up another THD. I'll bring it home. I'll swap the CCs from the old unit to the new unit. We'll see if it actually works. Since people here have effectively accused me of lying/trolling and not even having purchased a unit, I'd be more than happy to take digital pics of the process. I'd even be more than happy to setup a toll free conference line so that if somebody wants to "walk me through" the process (so I won't be blamed for the wrong process after all this) I'd be more than happy to do that. That should completely eliminate any such accusations against me. 

If the swap works, then great. If the swap does NOT work, I expect a number of apologies. By "works" I don't mean that the grey screen issue goes away. I mean that the Tivo will work, the CCs will be properly paired, that I'll get all digital channels that I'm supposed to get - without VZ rolling a truck.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

wmhjr said:


> Picked up a THD last week, with a scheduled CC install last Friday. Comcast tech came out and spent all day - never got the THD with cablecards to work. They were supposed to return on Saturday but never showed.
> 
> Verizon came to install Fios TV Thursday. I maintained Comcast at the same time so I could compare. Verizon brought Moto6416-2 units for me to use as well - in addition to the CCs for the THD. All except the THD working very quickly. The THD took 5 hours (along with a bunch of phone calls) to get working.
> 
> At this time, I now have Comcast with 8300HDs, Verizon FiOS with 6416-2s, and a THD all active - and all connected via component to the same HD TV.





wmhjr said:


> This unit is on Verizon (I currently have both Verizon AND Comcast in my home, evaluating Fios and the THD before discontinuing Comcast service should I decide to do that).


Ok, I had to go back thru and re-read your posts.

Your THD is hooked up via FiOS. (Verizon). It has been mentioned that FiOS signals can run to hot for the THD. In the other thread, second post.



> Yes. I saw this when I had my TiVoHD for use with just analog recordings. *the box had a problem with a signal that was too strong and this would be the result of that. I went through a several boxes to get one that worked properly. All the boxes I tried that had serial numbers with 802C and 802D had this problem. I finally got a box with 802F and 803 that were newer that didn't have the problem*. OF course it doesn't matter anymore since I only using them now with FIOS and all digital channels.


and somewhere burried in this mess some talked about putting something on the line to weaken it just enough so it would work.

Also, have you hooked it up directly with the FiOS or always through your RG6 distribution plant?


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> OK, so here's a suggestion. Since so many of you believe that not only am I wrong about swapping cc cards into another tivo, but also believe that Tivo support AND Verizon is wrong......
> 
> First, let me be clear about the situation. I am currently paying about $111/mo for Comcast service and DVRs. I am additionally (at the same time) paying about $90/mo for Verizon service and DVRs. I can terminate the Verizon service (soon) without owing them anything. After that, it's month to month with no pro-rating. If I disconnect Comcast and decide that neither the THD nor the VZ Moto box are OK, then I'd need to pay a hefty re-install fee for that. If I terminate VZ and want to put it in a few weeks/months from now, then I pay another install charge. So, the idea of pushing trying another THD out more than another 1.5 weeks or so really means a minimum of $100 cost for me. That would be in addition to any required truck rolls to "reauthorize" swapping CCs. So the potential cost for me is an additional cost at least equaling 50% of the actual THD purchase price - on the "chance" that the issue is resolved. Maybe that makes it easier to understand.
> 
> ...


Apologize for making reasonable suggestions based on the experience of other posters here who report having successfully done something that sounds like it might help fix your problem? Really? WTF?


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> OK, so here's a suggestion. Since so many of you believe that not only am I wrong about swapping cc cards into another tivo, but also believe that Tivo support AND Verizon is wrong......
> 
> First, let me be clear about the situation. I am currently paying about $111/mo for Comcast service and DVRs. I am additionally (at the same time) paying about $90/mo for Verizon service and DVRs. I can terminate the Verizon service (soon) without owing them anything. After that, it's month to month with no pro-rating. If I disconnect Comcast and decide that neither the THD nor the VZ Moto box are OK, then I'd need to pay a hefty re-install fee for that. If I terminate VZ and want to put it in a few weeks/months from now, then I pay another install charge. So, the idea of pushing trying another THD out more than another 1.5 weeks or so really means a minimum of $100 cost for me. That would be in addition to any required truck rolls to "reauthorize" swapping CCs. So the potential cost for me is an additional cost at least equaling 50% of the actual THD purchase price - on the "chance" that the issue is resolved. Maybe that makes it easier to understand.
> 
> ...


First, if the swap doesn't work you'll get no apology from me. The swap will merely determine if your problems are intrinsic or exceptional. It's the reasonable thing to do if you don't want to just walk away instead.

Don't just shove CableCARD(s) into the replacement HDTiVo, BTW. Run the initial Guided Setup w/o CC and see how things work. If they don't, there'll be no need of going farther.

But if you do install CC's, don't swap cards from anything else unless your cable co. buys into it first. Do so in precisely the way your cable co. makes you, no matter how inconvenient that may be or how many truck rolls you have to 'eat'! Your description of your situation is more complicated than I can follow precisely.

BTW, congratulations on providing an issue which caught many posters' attentions, and ultimately deciding to follow the consensus suggestion!


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

I'll apologize. I questioned if the OP really bought a TiVo HD. The whole thing sounded a bit 'manufactured' as a way to just bash TiVo, and maybe spread some FUD to others thinking about getting a TiVo HD. What with the original comments about how the Comcast and Verizon DVR's were working fine, and the TiVo HD was not, plus the focus on cost differences, and how TiVo churn was up, subs were down. Plus the fact that all suggestions seem to be ignored, or discounted for various reasons.

I just thought it sounded like there were other motivations.

Look, if you (the OP) are having all these issues, and you are not happy, just take the TiVo HD back. Return it and get your money back. I'm not clear if you are using Comcast or Verizon anymore, but just use the DVR they provide. On face value, you are going through absolute Hell. I would not wish that on anyone. Just return it. Again, I apologize if my comments made your situation more frustrating.

I just don't see a good result for you in this otherwise. I think all the suggestions here have been offered to help resolve your issues. Outside of a software update and an admission from TiVo that there is something wrong, I don't know that you will find a resolution. I mean, speaking for myself, my units are performing fine. And I think we are running the same level of TiVo software.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

wmhjr said:


> Tivo could acknowledge the defect and provide both a workaround to mnimize the risk and a tentative date for a fix? The reason this was initially posted was in the obviously ridiculous chance that Tivo was here listening and would/could respond - or that somebody here "close" to Tivo would be able to provide feedback.


 If that's what you consider a satisfactory outcome to your posts here at TCF, the possibility of a satisfactory outcome is vanishingly small. With few if any exceptions, _*TiVo*_ doesn't acknowledge software bugs here; doesn't provide workarounds to software bugs here; and doesn't provide tentative dates for software updates here.

Return the box!


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## Interpol (Nov 13, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Yes, you are. That works. EXCEPT then need to schedule another cablecard install and pay the service fee. At this point the next install (unless there is a cancellation) is after Xmas.


I'm not ignoring that fact. I was merely posting a suggestion that solves the problem of your return period running out BEFORE another installer is able to come to your house.

I don't understand why you are being so pedantic over this. It's no wonder people here find you and your attitude rather undesirable. If paying the extra $30 for another install is such a big deal to you, maybe you should just throw out the whole idea of trying to get this to work and live with STBs.


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## jrm01 (Oct 17, 2003)

Title of this post should be changed, deleting the word "quickly".


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## rcamille (Dec 24, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> That should completely eliminate any such accusations against me.
> 
> If the swap works, then great. If the swap does NOT work, I expect a number of apologies. By "works" I don't mean that the grey screen issue goes away. I mean that the Tivo will work, the CCs will be properly paired, that I'll get all digital channels that I'm supposed to get - without VZ rolling a truck.


I have not had the time to read through this entire thread, but after scanning through your issues, i think you should check the following before you exchange your unit.

What software version are you running? There were problems with the first few versions. 9.2 is pretty stable.

The Screen of Death - it has happened to me, but not that often. TiVo is working on a fix. I would ask you to be patient.

If I were you, I would unplug the unit for 5 minutes, let it reboot and repeat guided setup. If the cable cards fail initialization, you generally dont need to call your service provider or TiVo. Just slide the card that did not initalize out of the slot and put it back in. If both cards dont initialize, then slide them both out. Slide Card 1 back in first. Be patient and wait for it to initialize. Once that card is completed, then repeat with Card 2. Once it reboots repeat guided setup - I know it is a pain, but it will probably resolve your incorrect recording issue.

If you are not running the latest software, i would force a few connections, that sometimes works.

I too had some problems with my TiVo HD when I got mine in August. But now that most of the bugs are worked out, I love it and would never trade it for a Verizon or Cable box.

Hope these suggestions help.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

jrm01 said:


> Title of this post should be changed, deleting the word "quickly".


The man just started the thread a couple of days ago....


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

Guys, he's just looking for something to complain about. He doesn't want a solution because no solution is good enough. Frankly, if I ever had ANY operating system that didn't crash atleast once, I would be blown away. I had my cable provided DVR crash more than once before I got the S3. His TiVo crashes once and it's the end of the world?

*yawn*

Stop responding to him. You're just putting him on a taller soap box.


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## WizarDru (Jan 18, 2005)

Personally, I think you should return it. TiVo certainly isn't going to go to the lengths you'd like to resolve the issue, even if they do resolve it. I think you've been quite clear how disappointed you are in the product and I don't think even full functionality would satisfy you at this stage, as you have justifiable concerns about it's stability.

As far as speed is concerned, my two TivoHDs on FIOS started slow when I first got them, but with the upgrade to 9.1 (and then 9.2, etc.) and a few days for it to properly build indexes, the menus were back to the same speed I experienced with my Series 1 and Series 2 units. My FIOS install was quite painless and only took the tech 1.5 hours (and that only because he'd never done a CC install before and was being methodical). I do know that my Comcast DVR was not only poor in performance, it was far buggier than any TiVo I've ever had. If I was experiencing the same issues you were, I'd probably return to it despite it's flaws...but as I said, I and many others are not having the problems you are.

I will say that blaming TiVo for issues with the providers provisioning cable cards is sort of the tail wagging the dog. Cable companies try to even deny they exist and hate installing them for any device, be it TiVo, television or what have you. Verizon was to be commended for not concealing the information from me and not hassling me about them when I requested them for my TiVos. That their professional organization, Cablelabs, has been intentionally dragging their feet on the specs for newer cablecards to try and hobble third-party organizations from releasing devices with full functionality on their systems as mandated by the FCC rests solely with the cable industry, not the equipment manufacturers trying to work under their umbrella, IMHO.


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## hurl03 (Nov 1, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> OK, so here's a suggestion. Since so many of you believe that not only am I wrong about swapping cc cards into another tivo, but also believe that Tivo support AND Verizon is wrong......
> 
> First, let me be clear about the situation. I am currently paying about $111/mo for Comcast service and DVRs. I am additionally (at the same time) paying about $90/mo for Verizon service and DVRs. I can terminate the Verizon service (soon) without owing them anything. After that, it's month to month with no pro-rating. If I disconnect Comcast and decide that neither the THD nor the VZ Moto box are OK, then I'd need to pay a hefty re-install fee for that. If I terminate VZ and want to put it in a few weeks/months from now, then I pay another install charge. So, the idea of pushing trying another THD out more than another 1.5 weeks or so really means a minimum of $100 cost for me. That would be in addition to any required truck rolls to "reauthorize" swapping CCs. So the potential cost for me is an additional cost at least equaling 50% of the actual THD purchase price - on the "chance" that the issue is resolved. Maybe that makes it easier to understand.
> 
> ...


I can say that when i had and issue and TiVo sent a replacement box i plugged in the old cable cards and things worked fine. Just to be sure I called the cable company and told them i was having some issues with one of the cards they already installed and they came out and replaced both for no charge. My cable company does not charge for issues with their equipment once it's been installed, IE replacement of cable cards.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> ...if I ever had ANY operating system that didn't crash atleast once, I would be blown away. I had my cable provided DVR crash more than once before I got the S3. His TiVo crashes once and it's the end of the world?


Which doesn't speak well for the current state of digital technology compared to other mature technologies, does it?.



> *yawn*
> 
> Stop responding to him. You're just putting him on a taller soap box.


Actually in its way this has been an informative thread. The OP was finally persuaded that the consensus opinion was, in fact, the most reasonable course of action.

Although, in the end, trying another HDTiVo may not prove to be a successful solution, I for one am curious.

Forums offer at best a very low soapbox; everyone is free to read or post to any thread or not. As long as common Forum courtesy is adhered to there's no harm or foul.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> Which doesn't speak well for the current state of digital technology compared to other mature technologies, does it?.


Yes and no. I mean, think about the amount of precision in the circuits that run all of these devices. It only takes the smallest amount of dust to cause a random glitch that just occurs once. I mean, as a programmer myself, I can attest that no matter how many hours you spend on an app, there's ALWAYS a bug you missed that shows up once every 100 hours or more or use.

I hear you. But I am also OK with it. I mean, i've heard reports now of BD and HD-DVD players having to be rebooted due to a weird crash. You and I both know it won't be long before something liket his happens in a car.


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## TiVo Troll (Mar 23, 2006)

Grakthis said:


> I hear you. But I am also OK with it.


I can live with it (as if there was a choice)! But, I bet that over time digital reliability, while never achieving perfection, will approach it, at least to the level that CRT TV's or refrigerators achieved. (And yes, I'm aware that new refrigerators, like cars, are now part of the digital age.)


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

TiVo Troll said:


> I can live with it (as if there was a choice)! But, I bet that over time digital reliability, while never achieving perfection, will approach it, at least to the level that CRT TV's or refrigerators achieved. (And yes, I'm aware that new refrigerators, like cars, are now part of the digital age.)


Funny, I haven't heard any reports of digital refrigerators crashing "every 100 hours or so" due to the "smallest piece of dust".

I'm with you - there's no reason other than incompetence that digital equipment can't be reliable. And there is no reason not to be able to expect that when you shell out several hundred dollars for something it will work when you take it home and turn it on.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> You and I both know it won't be long before something like this happens in a car.


We ran an early Cisco VoIP system at a previous employer, and as much as we joked about it, there really were times in the first 6 months that I would have to say "hang, on, this is bad...I have to reboot my phone, I'll call you right back"

aint technology fun?


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

TiVo Troll said:


> I can live with it (as if there was a choice)! But, I bet that over time digital reliability, while never achieving perfection, will approach it, at least to the level that CRT TV's or refrigerators achieved. (And yes, I'm aware that new refrigerators, like cars, are now part of the digital age.)


It's funny that you say that.... I had to "reboot" my refridgerator a few months ago!

The power blinked, and it caused an issue in my freezer where it was basically cycling on and off non-stop every 2-3 seconds and blowing "snow" all over the freezer. I had to unplug it and plug it back in to fix it.

My sister-in-law works for GE and used to manage a call center and she explained that this happens sometimes.

edit @ Roy - So... yeah. Even your fridge can get a glitch and need power cycled. The smarter we make a device, the more likely it will get caught in a logic loop of some kind.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Grakthis said:


> It's funny that you say that.... I had to "reboot" my refridgerator a few months ago!
> 
> The power blinked, and it caused an issue in my freezer where it was basically cycling on and off non-stop every 2-3 seconds and blowing "snow" all over the freezer. I had to unplug it and plug it back in to fix it.
> 
> ...


That's a far cry from a bug that shows up every 100 hours or so and it could have been avoided with the judicious use of a watchdog timer and proper coding.


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## usnret (Nov 25, 2003)

MRV ur freezer with your oven perhaps???


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

RoyK said:


> That's a far cry from a bug that shows up every 100 hours or so and it could have been avoided with the judicious use of a watchdog timer and proper coding.


Maybe. But the fact remains... even consumer appliances have glitches.


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## 20TIL6 (Sep 7, 2006)

I wonder if the OP will let us know what he did. Did he exchange his unit, take it back, what?


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## Xenon221 (Jan 18, 2004)

Sorry if this is out of place (I don't want to cause trouble)! But, I've had my TiVo HD for about a month or so now. It has performed flawlessly (less a couple outstanding CC issues on two freqs). Hundreds of shows, an external drive added, then CC. Through all of the transitions, changes, analog to then digital, over 100 season passes, it has been quite a trooper. I would consider the software very robust!

Good luck to you. I also understand well how troubleshooting can be frustrating.


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## AZrob (Mar 31, 2002)

Hey everybody,

TivoPony just posted an acknowledgment in the "All Video Vanishes" thread that Tivo is aware of this issue, can replicate it, and is working on a fix.

See this link for the full posting:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5761128#post5761128

Rob from AZ


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> OK, so here's a suggestion. Since so many of you believe that not only am I wrong about swapping cc cards into another tivo, but also believe that Tivo support AND Verizon is wrong......
> 
> First, let me be clear about the situation. I am currently paying about $111/mo for Comcast service and DVRs. I am additionally (at the same time) paying about $90/mo for Verizon service and DVRs. I can terminate the Verizon service (soon) without owing them anything. After that, it's month to month with no pro-rating. If I disconnect Comcast and decide that neither the THD nor the VZ Moto box are OK, then I'd need to pay a hefty re-install fee for that. If I terminate VZ and want to put it in a few weeks/months from now, then I pay another install charge. So, the idea of pushing trying another THD out more than another 1.5 weeks or so really means a minimum of $100 cost for me. That would be in addition to any required truck rolls to "reauthorize" swapping CCs. So the potential cost for me is an additional cost at least equaling 50% of the actual THD purchase price - on the "chance" that the issue is resolved. Maybe that makes it easier to understand.
> 
> ...


Any updates?


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

anything can have glitches, digital or otherwise.

I don't think anyone is complaining about the exitence of such glitches, rather the expansiness of such glitches.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

Expansiness?


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

expansiveness?


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## tboggs13 (Nov 14, 2007)

Today is the first day I hooked up my THD and so far I am impressed. Still have to schedule the FIOS CC install, but all in it's time. Maybe that will make a difference in the performance.

Right now, compared to the FIOS DVR I have been using, this thing is lightning. Ever since the upgrade to the new interface, the box has been rebooting multiple times a week and missing shows. The new interface is pretty, but it seems to require many more clicks to do the simplest tasks.

Even before the update, it had to be rebooted about once a month due to a hard lock-up.

The FIOS DVR is the reason I just bought a THD. The FIOS Media DVR looks good on paper, but for the $20 a month I pay for it, I don't get much back. Already the THD is working better with streaming from my desktop. It was virtually painless compared to how the FIOS unit worked.

I guess my point here is that if your service is FIOS, your only way to go is up. I have been waiting three years for it to improve and I am tired of paying for a DVR with crippled features. Bring on THD and CC's.

I will say I love the FIOS service, especially internet and TV, just not the hardware.


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## qili (May 31, 2006)

"if your service is FIOS, your only way to go is up."

sounds like you are moving from terrible to less terrible.

still a step in the right direction and a cause for celebration.

not a cause for satisfaction.


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## dmbfan36_23 (Feb 15, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> Further, you must remember that an exchange would also require another CC install. That's another $29, and a wait until about the end of December to execute.


This should not be the case, you should be able to put your existing cable cards in the new TiVo when it comes and simply call Comcast tech support and tell them you need them to send a re-initialization signal to the cards. That's what I did with FiOS today when I pulled my existing card from my TV and popped it into my new TiVoHD. I've done this in the past with Comcast as well.

EDIT: Ok, I hadn't read this post, but it still seems like a crock of sh*t... all that happens when the tech shows up is they either a. call a VZ CSR to send an init signal or b. they use their laptops to hook directly into the VZ system and do it themselves...


wmhjr said:


> I can not - repeat - can not - swap the unit without a truck roll. Period.
> 
> That has been confirmed by Tivo AND Verizon.
> 
> ...


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

dmbfan36_23 said:


> This should not be the case, you should be able to put your existing cable cards in the new TiVo when it comes and simply call Comcast tech support and tell them you need them to send a re-initialization signal to the cards. That's what I did with FiOS today when I pulled my existing card from my TV and popped it into my new TiVoHD. I've done this in the past with Comcast as well.
> 
> EDIT: Ok, I hadn't read this post, but it still seems like a crock of sh*t... all that happens when the tech shows up is they either a. call a VZ CSR to send an init signal or b. they use their laptops to hook directly into the VZ system and do it themselves...


Unlike Verizon, Comcast requires PAIRING the cableCARD to the hardware it is installed in. There is a cableCARD FAQ sticky here that explains all of this. And in most cases, Comcast will NOT allow the customer to call in the SER# , HOST ID and DATA ID. I do agree this is ridiculous since that IS exactly what the tech does.

If you will recall, the original cable box was one way and required a tech visit. Now, it is two-way and you can self-install. So, my hope is, that Comcast will one day realize that it is more cost effective to let the customer pickup the cableCARDs and call in the numbers. (Or with two-way capability around the corner, maybe NOT have to call anything in.)


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

pl1 said:


> And in most cases, Comcast will NOT allow the customer to call in the SER# , HOST ID and DATA ID. I do agree this is ridiculous since that IS exactly what the tech does.


I'm not defending them in any manner, but in my experience the Comcast techs call a number that we normal mortals do not have access to. In one of the cableCARD threads a TCF member talks about having let the tech use his phone, then noting the number, and when he needed a card re-paired, he called it and spoke "confidently"

And with the results I've gotten from normal "customer service" I wouldn't be confident with them handling long strings of numbers read to them, heck, they can't even get my name right after I repeat it four times.

Diane


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

dianebrat said:


> I'm not defending them in any manner, but in my experience the Comcast techs call a number that we normal mortals do not have access to. In one of the cableCARD threads a TCF member talks about having let the tech use his phone, then noting the number, and when he needed a card re-paired, he called it and spoke "confidently"Diane


My tech got every number he needed off of my screen. And that was three techs for two machines. If you look at the cableCARD FAQ from TiVo, they show you examples of every number needed to pair and subscribe. Plus, the tech wrote down every number he needed to read off on his work order, a copy of which I received each time. Some cablecos want the hard ser# attached to the card.


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## pl1 (Jan 18, 2007)

dianebrat said:


> And with the results I've gotten from normal "customer service" I wouldn't be confident with them handling long strings of numbers read to them, heck, they can't even get my name right after I repeat it four times.Diane


Right, we should get a direct line to the cableCARD department like the tech does.


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

wmhjr said:


> No, I'm interested in a reliable service that's supported by somebody actually addressing an issue that has been widely reported - not a device that will lock up whenever it feels like it and is supported by an organization that says I should simply expect that and deal with it. If TiVo would have stepped up and even seemed SLIGHTLY concerned or willing to address this that would be one thing. However, they clearly and explicitly stated that I should just deal with it.


I went though some of this with my HD. two exchanges at costco until the third unit worked ok. Cox only charged for the first truck roll for cable cards. The unit now works flawlessly. Of course I bought from costco, with thier generous return policy, so I didn't have to deal with Tivo and shipping etc. I have the HD, and S3, and Humax DVDR and have owned standalone and Directv Tivos for the last 6 years. They are far superior to the SA8300 that Cox supplies here in Fairfax Va. Good luck, and at least you have FIOS! It hasn't reached my part of the county yet.


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