# Permiere Paradox



## doormat (Sep 15, 2004)

OK so I've been thinking about the Premiere launch. I saw the Engadget liveblog and watched the ZatzChat.

However it seems odd to me that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the product (myself included), especially regarding the price. 

I have no problem dropping $300 every year on an new iPhone plus $30 a month for data and yet still complaining about AT&T's poor service. But everyone is griping about the TiVo's price ($300) and monthly costs ($13 or $400 lifetime) and they love their TiVo. It is incredible to me actually. Why does everyone have such a hard time justifying to themselves a $300 TiVo once every three years and the $12.95/mo.

To me its a conflict. I love Apple, hate AT&T and still buy a new iPhone every year. I love TiVo, hate my cable company, and loathe buying a new TiVo one every 3 years (or so). 

(note this isn't to start some flamewar about apple or tivo products, I just thought it was an odd juxtaposition of people's attitudes)


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

300 is not bad. i make more that just working overtime. but already have 3 tivo in the house



doormat said:


> OK so I've been thinking about the Premiere launch. I saw the Engadget liveblog and watched the ZatzChat.
> 
> However it seems odd to me that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the product (myself included), especially regarding the price.
> 
> ...


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

doormat said:


> OK so I've been thinking about the Premiere launch. I saw the Engadget liveblog and watched the ZatzChat.
> 
> However it seems odd to me that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the product (myself included), especially regarding the price.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's a little odd, isn't it. I've never really understood it myself, but it's been like this for DVRs from the beginning (ReplayTV had the same problem, basically) - people would pay $50 for extended cable, but paying $13 for a machine that would actually let you USE that cable sub to the fullest was a severe obstacle.


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## rtmoore4 (May 12, 2005)

To be honest, I have no problem paying for the upgrade. My problem is that TiVo didn't come out with this a year ago. This is not revolutionary stuff, and should have been done with the S3, or at least the HD. TiVo Premiere is fine, but to hype it the way they did AND to be so late to market with it is embarrassing.


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## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

The problem is that there isn't much worth upgrading for. It's a new interface, but almost everything you can do right now with your Series 3. Your Series 3 still works and does its job, even after 3 years.....why pay $300? 

Were there things you wanted in the new iPhone that you couldn't do on the old one? I'd bet so.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

Not to derail but is there really that much of a difference between this years IPhone and last years?


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## doormat (Sep 15, 2004)

rtmoore4 said:


> To be honest, I have no problem paying for the upgrade. My problem is that TiVo didn't come out with this a year ago. This is not revolutionary stuff, and should have been done with the S3, or at least the HD. TiVo Premiere is fine, but to hype it the way they did AND to be so late to market with it is embarrassing.


I don't disagree. TiVo should have been earlier to market, but a lot of their constraints are when Broadcom or whoever can deliver a capable chip. Unless they were to change it up and go with Nvidia's Tegra/Tegra2 solution and build up everything around if (if its at all possible).

Its why Apple went with their in-house chip for the iPad (and probably future iPhones) so they aren't stuck on anyone else's time table as to when newer, faster, more capable CPU/GPUs are released.



DancnDude said:


> The problem is that there isn't much worth upgrading for. It's a new interface, but almost everything you can do right now with your Series 3. Your Series 3 still works and does its job, even after 3 years.....why pay $300?
> 
> Were there things you wanted in the new iPhone that you couldn't do on the old one? I'd bet so.


Capacity (16->32GB). Thats it though. Its a lot to spend $300 on. But I did happily.


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## alarson83 (Oct 27, 2009)

doormat said:


> OK so I've been thinking about the Premiere launch. I saw the Engadget liveblog and watched the ZatzChat.
> 
> However it seems odd to me that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the product (myself included), especially regarding the price.
> 
> ...


Not entirely fair, as if you replaced your phone in general you're going to pay a good amount anyways. If you went with a cable box you'd pay nothing for the box itself (all wrapped into the monthly charge)

Also, there are a lot of us standing on the sidelines on the iphone thing precisely because of the ATT thing. I for one will not have an iphone until it gets onto verizon.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

Apple gives us stuff we want; TiVo is going the other way. More noise, slower UI, more ads.

Does that explain it?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

I really, REALLY want a new gadget too, but the Premiere doesn't actually do anything new. It's effectively a $300 software update despite its beefier hardware.

We watch more TV because of Tivo, and it's unfortunate that we ended up outgrowing them in the process. If they had added an extra tuner at least in the XL, I would've been a day one "take my freaking money PLEASE!"

Paying for 2 units, 2 monthly fees (or 2 lifetimes), and 2 cablecards would be asking too much, especially when there are other viable options now, and even more emerging later. So it's disappointing to have to shop elsewhere.

That's the conundrum in the BigJim household.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

sriggins said:


> Apple gives us stuff we want; TiVo is going the other way. More noise, slower UI, more ads.
> 
> Does that explain it?


No, it doesn't.


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## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

doormat said:


> Capacity (16->32GB). Thats it though. Its a lot to spend $300 on. But I did happily.


Actually, the iPhone 3GS has twice the RAM, a faster processor, and better 3D accelleration than the iPhone 3G. It also has a compass, a video camera, and autofocus which the 3G is lacking. The camera is also 3 MP versus 2 MP on the 3G. Looking at the specs, I was going to skip the 3GS, but someone bought my 3G so I picked the 3GS up... glad I did, it's a lot faster than the 2G and 3G iPhones.

Anyhoo, it's not the price of the Premier that's bugging me. Here's what I don't like:

1) My Series 3 is a way nicer machine. It looks a lot nicer and I love the OLED display on the front. It's nice to be able to know what the thing is recording at a glance.

2) Buying the Premier means dealing with another lifetime service transfer. The Premier would make it my 3rd lifetime transfer, how many times do we have to keep rebuying the "lifetime" service? I'd glady pay $90-$100 to do the transfer but it's sounding like it's going to suck up another $300... which is a big gamble... especially if a true2way device comes out in less than 2 years.

So will I buy the Premier? Maybe. I'm leaning towards it, but it's going to be begrudgingly and not in a totally excited manner, like when the Series 3 came out. I'd mainly be doing it for the better interface and that awesome slider remote - although a nicer interface is something that the S3 and HDs should have had a long time ago.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

MickeS said:


> No, it doesn't.


How about responding with why you are still confused, vs leaving a troll response.

I feel it is clear why people are buying Apple products in droves and starting to think about alternatives to TiVo.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Why do people always compare TiVo to Apple? The companies have nothing in common as far as I can tell (save maybe geographical location).


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

sriggins said:


> How about responding with why you are still confused, vs leaving a troll response.
> 
> I feel it is clear why people are buying Apple products in droves and starting to think about alternatives to TiVo.


I assumed you read my previous response, which I thought explained my response to you. The fact is that so far NO DVR that isn't leased by the content provider has managed to become successful. Why? I don't know, but I guess most people simply don't want to buy hardware and be billed separately for "recording TV". Hell, most people with DVRs don't even USE them, according to a poll I read a while ago..


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

eisenb11 said:


> 2) Buying the Premier means dealing with another lifetime service transfer. The Premier would make it my 3rd lifetime transfer, how many times do we have to keep rebuying the "lifetime" service? I'd glady pay $90-$100 to do the transfer but it's sounding like it's going to suck up another $300... which is a big gamble... especially if a true2way device comes out in less than 2 years.


You may have missed the news, but based on current reporting, TiVo intends to offer lifetime service on the Premiere for $199 to those that already have lifetime on another DVR. Furthermore, this isn't a lifetime transfer; you retain lifetime service on the existing DVR.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

MickeS said:


> Why do people always compare TiVo to Apple? The companies have nothing in common as far as I can tell (save maybe geographical location).


They have much in common; They both created great products that people *loved* All of us Series 1 adopters *loved* our TiVos, just like many Mac owners *love* their macs.

It is is more of a strange religion or passion that just a gadget. TiVo even has a cute mascot.

But over time, due to either bad engineering decisions, bad marketing decisions, or a tough financial market, TiVo has been losing its way.

I was *elated* to pay a monthly fee for the original TiVo. It was fast, had a clean UI, no ads, just let me get right to my content.

Now I have to see pizza ads and other crud in menus and it just gets worse with the new UI.

iPhones don't have a carrier logo slapped across the front of the device. I don't think any other cell phone has the caché to pull that off.

That is what TiVo was about; Innovated, cool, very useful, game changing.

TiVo - game changing; iPhone - game changing.

TiVo Premier? Sell out is what I see. Too bad, I'm a very loyal customer and TiVo is making me very sad.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

MickeS said:


> I assumed you read my previous response, which I thought explained my response to you. The fact is that so far NO DVR that isn't leased by the content provider has managed to become successful. Why? I don't know, but I guess most people simply don't want to buy hardware and be billed separately for "recording TV". Hell, most people with DVRs don't even USE them, according to a poll I read a while ago..


I really don't think that is the case. I think that TiVo has let others catch up to them and now they are scrambling to regain the lead and are failing.

I had a comcast DVR for awhile and it was *awful* Now, DVRs like Dish, from what I am told by dish using friends, are "good enough" and TiVo is just not setting itself apart.

It's like the new World of Warcraft magazine. What from I am told, it is gorgeous, has no ads and is expensive. They are going like gangbusters.

If, in 5 years, this magazine is expensive and has ads like other magazines, most won't care about it.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

bkdtv said:


> You may have missed the news, but based on current reporting, TiVo intends to offer lifetime service on the Premiere for $199 to those that already have lifetime on another DVR. Furthermore, this isn't a lifetime transfer; you retain lifetime service on the existing DVR.


yeah that's nice. When I plunked down my $600 for a Series 3, they didn't offer lifetime. I had to pay for three years. Which are up in april. Guess what? I'm going yearly. I don't think I'll be using my TiVo in 3 years. The landscape is very likely to change by then.


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## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

bkdtv said:


> You may have missed the news, but based on current reporting, TiVo intends to offer lifetime service on the Premiere for $199 to those that already have lifetime on another DVR. Furthermore, this isn't a lifetime transfer; you retain lifetime service on the existing DVR.


I just read that a few moments ago. It seems that there is some confusion on which number it is... $300 or $200. If it's $200, I won't be as upset. Being able to keep the prior lifetime is a plus, though. This definately improves my outlook on the S4. I still don't like the way the unit physically looks, though but I guess you can't win all the time right?

I'm assuming that means if I sell or give away my S3, the old lifetime will hopefully go to the new owner's account?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

sriggins said:


> I really don't think that is the case. I think that TiVo has let others catch up to them and now they are scrambling to regain the lead and are failing.
> 
> I had a comcast DVR for awhile and it was *awful* Now, DVRs like Dish, from what I am told by dish using friends, are "good enough" and TiVo is just not setting itself apart.
> 
> ...


But even when TiVo and Replay were the lone products out there, with arguably very good functionality both of them, they didn't manage to break through and make a profit. I believe that the market simply doesn't really exist as a stand-alone market.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

MickeS said:


> But even when TiVo and Replay were the lone products out there, with arguably very good functionality both of them, they didn't manage to break through and make a profit. I believe that the market simply doesn't really exist as a stand-alone market.


That very well may be the case.

I am actually renting my cable modem for the first time because 2 months after I bought a new cable modem, DOCSIS 3 came out. I figured, ya know, I'll just let them handle repairs and upgrades. It costs more, but it is one less thing I have to deal with.

Maybe that is the appeal of the carriers DVRs. If it breaks, I am not out hundreds of dollars. I'll just swap it.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

eisenb11 said:


> 1) My Series 3 is a way nicer machine. It looks a lot nicer and I love the OLED display on the front. It's nice to be able to know what the thing is recording at a glance.


The Series 3 units cost $800 when they were first released. (I remember, I bought two) At the time the 5xx series S2 units cost $300 and they were the worst TiVos in the history of TiVo. (so slooooow) TiVo obviously had to cut some corners somewhere to release an HD unit that is twice as fast and 1/3 the price of the original S3. To me the loss of the OLED screen isn't too bad of a compromise. (I can't really read mine from the couch anyway)

I've been holding off on buying a TiVo HD as a 3rd unit because they have small drives, poor performance and bad looks. This new unit seems to address all 3 of those things for the same price as the old HD unit. I'll probably pick one up over the summer, before the new TV season starts, to replace my old S2 units. (I'll give them a little time to work the kinks out)

Dan


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

sriggins said:


> TiVo Premier? Sell out is what I see. Too bad, I'm a very loyal customer and TiVo is making me very sad.


That's funny because I have to think this was kinda designed for cable and satellite companies, and not so much standalone customers.

Is Tivo's message with the Premiere really that they're now moving pay-for VOD services to the front of line, front and center? Is that really the sales pitch they would make to potential customers that are already weary about the built-in subscription fee?

It works as a value-add for cable boxes. I can't imagine that working on standalone users.


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

sriggins said:


> Maybe that is the appeal of the carriers DVRs. If it breaks, I am not out hundreds of dollars. I'll just swap it.


This is how my parents look at it. The have a Comcast DVR. Their first one lasted for around 1.5 years and then died. They ran it to a local Comcast shop and 10min. later they had a new replacement DVR free of charge. It's hard arguing out that Tivo is better by a mile when they hear "well you buy the box for either 300.00 or 500.00 and then you pay a monthly fee or buy Lifetime service for 400.00" when they pay a whole 10.00/month for the DVR they have now with no additional costs.


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## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

Dan203 said:


> The Series 3 units cost $800 when they were first released. (I remember, I bought two) At the time the 5xx series S2 units cost $300 and they were the worst TiVos in the history of TiVo. (so slooooow) TiVo obviously had to cut some corners somewhere to release an HD unit that is twice as fast and 1/3 the price of the original S3. To me the loss of the OLED screen isn't too bad of a compromise. (I can't really read mine from the couch anyway)


It's funny, but I wish they had a "high end" version of the Premier. I love nice hardware and wouldn't think twice about paying $800 for something that looks like my S3. It just struck me that my S3 is also the only clock in the room - Argh.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I don't think Tivo or companies in general think about existing customers first when coming up with new products.

To the people who say it's a $300 software update, well yah, because you already own one. I'm sure Tivo would love you to buy every version of every box they ever put out, but is that the norm in electronics?

Do you buy every year's TV model, or every year's DVD player?

-smak-


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## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

doormat said:


> OK so I've been thinking about the Premiere launch. I saw the Engadget liveblog and watched the ZatzChat.
> 
> However it seems odd to me that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the product (myself included), especially regarding the price.
> 
> ...


Hey AT&T actually has some good coverage areas in some parts of the country. Sorry you don't have it in your neck of the woods. But having been to vegas I can atest that what you say is true. iPhone coverage in Vegas sucks...

Come to Texas and its great! Or at least it has been for me. Been out in the middle of BFE Texas, 30 miles from the closest mark of civilization & still had full coverage on my iPhone. 

Now TWC is another story!.... but alas I don't mind dropping $500 for a new TiVo every 3 to 4 years. If it has more than just a bigger hard drive.

Heck I have bought a new Blu-ray player every year since they have been released because of the upgrades available. Although I am *NOT* upgrading this time for 3D. I *HATE* 3D glasses. (Of any kind or style) They don't work over my normal glasses for my blindness... Which I think is DISCRIMATION. But thats for another time in another thread. I actually won't get 3D until they come out with 3D where glasses are NOT required!

TGC


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## alarson83 (Oct 27, 2009)

smak said:


> I don't think Tivo or companies in general think about existing customers first when coming up with new products.
> 
> To the people who say it's a $300 software update, well yah, because you already own one. I'm sure Tivo would love you to buy every version of every box they ever put out, but is that the norm in electronics?
> 
> ...


So take it another way. What does this offer to non-tivo owners that the tivo hd didnt? A prettier UI? Was that really keeping them away? The existing UI still blows away most cable boxes.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

smak said:


> Do you buy every year's TV model, or every year's DVD player?
> -smak-


Nope, but Tivo doesn't release annual models. When a platform gets to be 3-4 years old and long in the tooth, ready for replacement, it's not beyond expectation for them to do better than effectively re-release the same thing in a prettier package and insult my intelligence by saying it's going to change how I watch TV. I'm just gonna wanna thumb 'em in the eye.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

doormat said:


> However it seems odd to me that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the product (myself included), especially regarding the price.


I'm still paying off $12,000 in medical bills. I wouldn't be enthusiastic if it cost $50. 'Not even if it had any features I wanted.



doormat said:


> I have no problem dropping $300 every year on an new iPhone plus $30 a month for data and yet still complaining about AT&T's poor service.


You've got to be freakin' kidding me. I wouldn't pay $300 for a phone if you gave me the $300. I haven't purchased a cellular phone in over 20 years, and I was not at all happy when my company dumped my previous cell phone for a newer model. The old one was decent. The new one is vomitous.



doormat said:


> Why does everyone have such a hard time justifying to themselves a $300 TiVo once every three years and the $12.95/mo.


Because it would be pointless and a waste of money. If I'm going to spend $300 (plus the cost of modifications), I want it to be for something that is actually better, not worse. Most of what I have seen about this unit is either slightly or a whole lot worse than my existing TiVos, with only a small handful of very minor exceptions.


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## eisenb11 (Sep 6, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> I'm still paying off $12,000 in medical bills. I wouldn't be enthusiastic if it cost $50. 'Not even if it had any features I wanted.


While I'm certainly sorry to hear about your situation, I don't think people in this situation are Tivo's target audience... 



> You've got to be freakin' kidding me. I wouldn't pay $300 for a phone if you gave me the $300. I haven't purchased a cellular phone in over 20 years, and I was not at all happy when my company dumped my previous cell phone for a newer model. The old one was decent. The new one is vomitous.


Nothing wrong with using a free cell phone. Not everyone needs a smart phone, but if you do, the freebies aren't going to cut it. Just because it isn't right for you, doesn't mean there is no purpose to it...



> Because it would be pointless and a waste of money. If I'm going to spend $300 (plus the cost of modifications), I want it to be for something that is actually better, not worse. Most of what I have seen about this unit is either slightly or a whole lot worse than my existing TiVos, with only a small handful of very minor exceptions.


Please elaborate. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm truly curios to see what you think has gotten worse?

For me...

Better:
Faster processor, nicer GUI, live preview, single M-Card, slider remote, price

Worse:
Appearance (down from Series3), No OLED, interface potentially pokey


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Lack of OLED is the only thing I can see to fault, and I wasn't expecting that, since they already dropped it in the TiVo HD. Sadly I don't think it's coming back.

Apart from that, this would look better in my cabinet than the S3, since it would match the Blu-Ray's looks, and be less visually obtrusive.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

eisenb11 said:


> While I'm certainly sorry to hear about your situation, I don't think people in this situation are Tivo's target audience...


No, but people in uncertain or shaky (or worse) financial positions are more the norm than the exception these days. (And thanks for the support. I'll land on my feet easily enough, I just don't have any cash to fritter away at the moment.)



eisenb11 said:


> Nothing wrong with using a free cell phone.


There is with this one. It bites. Performance is horrible. It isn't ruggedized (the previous one was). It's difficult to use and lacks many important features such as the ability to silence the ringer automatically when using a BlueTooth headset. There is no way to forward a call to voicemail rather than answering it. It's all but impossible to pick up the phone without inadvertantly pressing two or three buttons in the process. It's too small. It has horrible battery life (in large measure because it is too small). It has all sorts of utterly useless "features" for which they charged my company a rather large amount of money. I want a *PHONE*, not a freakin' pathetically unacceptable camera. Not a massively substandard music player. Not a video player too small to see. Not a badly crippled computer.

Wait, what do you mean by "free phone?" Do you mean one that comes free with a contract? I've never used one of those, either. My company pays for my phone. I want (and had) a good one. It wasn't terribly cheap, but then it worked well. It did have a stupid camera built in, and it was a little on the small side, but otherwise it wasn't bad.



eisenb11 said:


> Not everyone needs a smart phone


I have never met anyone who needs a smart phone. More to the point, however, a dancing bear is not impressive just because he can dance. A lousy dancer is still a lousy dancer, no matter how inherently poor a physique the dancer may have had to work to overcome. If "smart" phones had 25" screens, 7.1 audio with a 12" subwoofer, a 14 button mouse, and a keyboard with 140+ keys, then they would be acceptable, but they would hardly be portable. Living with unacceptable performance for the sake of portability is not a reasonable compromise. Neither I nor any other ordinary individual is typically more than a few minutes away from a perfectly usable audio, video, or computing system, and there is rarely any compelling need to require access to such a system instantaneously. In short, anyone can wait a few minutes to listen to decent music, watch a decently presented movie, or browse the web.



eisenb11 said:


> but if you do, the freebies aren't going to cut it. Just because it isn't right for you, doesn't mean there is no purpose to it...


Everything has a purpose, even a mother-in-law. That doesn't make it recommended.



eisenb11 said:


> Please elaborate. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm truly curios to see what you think has gotten worse?


The UI, definitely (from what I have seen - I could easily be wrong).



eisenb11 said:


> For me...
> 
> Better:
> Faster processor


To what end? A faster processor that is bogged down with more processing so it is even slower than the slower processor running more efficient code is not an advancement. Again, I could be wrong, but several of the reports suggest it is slower than the S3.



eisenb11 said:


> , nicer GUI


Definitely not. The screenshots I have seen show more wasted real estate than a cemetery filled with mannequins, and apparently even LESS pertinent information on-screen than the current hardware.



eisenb11 said:


> live preview


I would pay to have that removed. If I want to watch a program, I watch a program (mostly that's what I do by a very wide margin). If I want to perform administrative functions, then I do that. Nothing is worse than diluting a video presentation with a bunch of distracting junk. Having something else going on visually and audibly while trying to get administrative work done just causes the work to take longer and encourages mistakes.



eisenb11 said:


> single M-Card


The THD already has that. True, I wish my S3s did, but at $6 a month, it would take me 50 months to recoup the additional costs. No, thanks.



eisenb11 said:


> slider remote


I think that's optional, not part of the regular package, is it? In any case, it's pretty worthless. As I pointed out in another thread, how is one to try typing on a vastly undersized keyboard on an unstable surface with one hand in the dark? Besides, I don't think I could manage to press less than four keys at once on that thing.



eisenb11 said:


> price


They aren't free. Since this version doesn't do anything I want that my current ones don't, why should I spend more than the $90 or so each that the M-Card support would save me?



eisenb11 said:


> Worse:
> Appearance (down from Series3), No OLED


OK, but it's largely irrelevant. I look at the TV, not the TiVo. I can't even see the TiVo in the theater, since it sits in the back of the room, behind the seats, not in the front. In the living room, I can't see the OLED display well enough to read it.


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

The Good:
The Premiere is a good upgrade to existing hardware and software. It's an evolutionary improvement. It was introduced at a competitive price to the S3 units it replaces and has new capabilities. Those are good things. It would have made a great quiet refresh of their hardware.

The Bad:
It was amazingly oversold by TiVo. TiVo isn't going to have many TiVo fans (except the equivalent of the Apple fanboi) praising this let down of an announcement. The user interface doesn't appear to offer significant functionality improvements in spite of it being revamped. I think that's to be expected since the old UI was completely functional and easy to use. I had no idea why people were clamoring for a "HD UI". For TiVo to say that it's "visually stunning" is a real stretch, we live in the world of Aero. The storage options are also very boring and offer nothing additional over existing units. The new Bluetooth remote is excellent - I can't see a reason it's not provided on old S3 units too.

TiVo's attempt to cost optimize their platform has failed again. To differentiate themselves they need to use premium hardware that enables significant capabilities that the cable company DVRs don't offer. Playing "me too" and charging $300 for the luxury doesn't make sense.

The unknown:
Does it do 24fps for on demand content? Can it pulldown to 24fps? I see little point in going 1080p unless it can do pulldown. Has TiVo continued it's marketing campaign of "More Ads in More Places"? Is the hardware finally capable of doing streaming MRV to get around the CCI problem?

TiVo will be hard pressed to expand their market share in the face of cable company DVRs that don't have a high up front acquisition cost and have similar functionality. If TiVo was smart they would have built a premium model, at a premium cost, that offered innovative and compelling features.

My plan? I'll be getting a Ceton and nearly break even after a year by eliminating monthly TiVo fees.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

sriggins said:


> Apple gives us stuff we want;


You have that backwards. If you think Apple does market research to develop based on what people want, you're mistaken.

You want the stuff Apple gives you.


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## Riverdome (May 12, 2005)

sriggins said:


> Apple gives us stuff we want


REALLY?

Then where is the iPhone for ANY American network other than AT&T?
Where is the QWERTY iPhone version?
When will I be able to install a non-app store application on my iPhone?
Remind me, how do I turn on Flash support on my iPhone or iPad?

[/rant]


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## PatEllis15 (Mar 3, 2010)

I think that for most people it is "normal" to skip 1 generation or more between purchases. That's why Palm was so anxious to get their Palm Pre out last summer (when the original Iphone users were likely starting to look at upgrades).

Really the only people who buy EVERY iteration of a gadget/device are enthusiasts.


If you just bought a tivo XL, Do you need to upgrade? I'd guess no.

I've got a series 2 though, and as I look to upgrade, why WOULD I by an XL or HD, when I can buy a Premier?

I would say that Tivo would do well to keep a more regular hardware refresh in their plans though....


Pat E


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

Riverdome said:


> REALLY?
> 
> Then where is the iPhone for ANY American network other than AT&T?
> Where is the QWERTY iPhone version?
> ...


I never said they give us everything we want. Your arguments are valid, yet the iPhone is still the best *phone* on the market and yet it does so much more.

The phone app is awesome; Never had people seen voicemail that was actually usable. Conference calls? Remember the days of put on hold, hang up by accident nonsense? Tap Merge Calls. Done.

We tend to overlook those major advancements. It was just what the TiVo did for television consumption.

Since those days, TiVo has done relatively little. More hard disk space, HD support, but nothing major other than attempts to integrate the web in a slow and ad riddled manner.


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## dtremit (Mar 17, 2002)

doormat said:


> I have no problem dropping $300 every year on an new iPhone plus $30 a month for data and yet still complaining about AT&T's poor service. But everyone is griping about the TiVo's price ($300) and monthly costs ($13 or $400 lifetime) and they love their TiVo.


For $30 a month, AT&T gives me data service, however imperfect. And Apple makes software updates available to older devices; iPhone OS 3.0 runs on the original iPhone. Sure, it doesn't give you features that depend on new hardware, but the core OS improvements are available.

For $13 a month, TiVo gives me the same guide data that's available for free on many other platforms, and a bunch of ads. They don't give me the content; I pay the cable company separately for that.

When TiVo was actively rolling out new features on existing boxes, I wasn't upset. But I haven't seen a single major functionality improvement since I purchased the box. I no longer feel that TiVo is providing me value for my subscription dollar.

The difficulty of managing storage and scheduling among multiple units is getting to be a major pain for me. I would have liked to see TiVo address that, rather than roll out what appears to be a cosmetic redo that I can't have. I am not in any hurry to get rid of my two HDs, but I think this is the point where I have to say "no more money, TiVo." I seriously doubt my next DVR will be a TiVo.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

DancnDude said:


> The problem is that there isn't much worth upgrading for. It's a new interface, but almost everything you can do right now with your Series 3. Your Series 3 still works and does its job, even after 3 years.....why pay $300?
> 
> Were there things you wanted in the new iPhone that you couldn't do on the old one? I'd bet so.


It is about potential. TMK, the Series 3 platform is near its limit, and four years old which is pretty old in the scheme of things. The platform needed refreshed to do new things. It just doesn't do much more for its core functionality of watching TV.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

yep people (well at least me) waste a lot more money buying new smartphones all the time and my cell phone bill is way way way higher than tivo.

I find it funny that a good portion of people say the new box is a pointless you so there's no reason to upgrade while at the same time another sizable portion is pissed this "yawner" isn't getting ported over to the S3.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

MichaelK said:


> I find it funny that a good portion of people say the new box is a pointless you so there's no reason to upgrade while at the same time another sizable portion is pissed this "yawner" isn't getting ported over to the S3.


Won't find me in the latter group if the performance was as abysmal as the TiVo Search.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

eisenb11 said:


> It's funny, but I wish they had a "high end" version of the Premier. I love nice hardware and wouldn't think twice about paying $800 for something that looks like my S3. It just struck me that my S3 is also the only clock in the room - Argh.


Nothing is built for quality anymore because everyone just wants everything to be as cheap as possible. There may be a few of us willing to pay $800 for a high end unit, but not enough for TiVo to put the R&D into it. Heck most people bock at the $300 price tag because they can get the "same thing" from their cable company for $5/mo.

Dan


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

eisenb11 said:


> So will I buy the Premier? Maybe. I'm leaning towards it, but it's going to be begrudgingly and not in a totally excited manner, like when the Series 3 came out.


Yeah, it's crazy to think back on how much I paid for the S3 and Lifetime. Without TiVoToGo and MRV even! And was excited about it. Compared to how I feel now. Somewhat letdown. I'm not sure the Premiere is a big enough splash to get people to defect from their cable provider's hardware. Or their connected Blu-ray player. Or Roku. In some strange way I feel sad for TiVo. It obviously wasn't their intent to let many of us down. And I'm not sure they saw this reaction coming. But potential exists... they've got smart people, they've got solid relationships, they've got plenty of cash and probably more on the way. So I'm hopeful that they'll surprise and impress me over the next 12 months. In the meantime, I'm playing the field a bit more - digging Moxi's extender and will build a Ceton HTPC whenever that card hits.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Why do people always compare TiVo to Apple? The companies have nothing in common as far as I can tell (save maybe geographical location).


Both companies make products that "just work" and, at some level, have simple and elegant UIs.

(both companies *also* don't offer as much customization as most people, including myself, want.. but for what they do, they're great.. disclaimer: I work at one of them..)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> Why do people always compare TiVo to Apple? The companies have nothing in common as far as I can tell (save maybe geographical location).


There is also a reason Apple does not make a DVR and why apple TV does not do so well either but the OP does not want to concede that either probably. Oh well another thread to ignore.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

There's a number of differences between an iPhone and a TiVo.

1. The iPhone costs a lot more than what you are paying for it. Most of the cost is being subsidized by AT&T in return for a 2 year contract. The 2 year contract deals are pretty much the sole reason why people upgrade their phones every other year (get a free phone every 2 years). Even then most people don't upgrade when their contract expires. TiVo tried this type of subscription model a few years back and it didn't work.

2. Apple makes it very easy to upgrade to a new iPhone. Simply hook the old iPhone to a computer, back it up, connect the new iPhone and restore. It takes a while, but the entire process is automated and you are back up and running where you left. There is no easy way to upgrade from one TiVo to another. It takes hours to re-enter your favorite channels, season passes, wish lists and other settings. If you want to transfer your old shows over that can take a few weeks and that's assuming the shows aren't copy protected.


I think the biggest reason not to upgrade to the Premiere is the same reason I didn't upgrade to the HD or XL. I simply don't need another DVR at this time and the S3 I have now works fine. I upgraded from my S2 to the S3 solely for HD support.


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## sriggins (Feb 21, 2005)

morac said:


> 2. Apple makes it very easy to upgrade to a new iPhone.


Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

sriggins said:


> Won't find me in the latter group if the performance was as abysmal as the TiVo Search.


'Or even if it isn't. I don't see anything there I want. I see a number of things I actively do not want.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dtremit said:


> For $13 a month, TiVo gives me the same guide data that's available for free on many other platforms


That's complete nonsense. No other platform offers any free TV guide. None. Zero. If you think they do, then you are far too foolish to be allowed out in society. Indeed, crunching the numbers, most of them actually charge more for the guide data than TiVo does, but even if not, it isn't free, regardless. Oh, and just BTW, TiVo doesn't charge me anything monthly for the subscriptions on two of my TiVos, and the charge for the 3rd is far, far less than the average amount charged by TiVo's competition.



dtremit said:


> When TiVo was actively rolling out new features on existing boxes, I wasn't upset. But I haven't seen a single major functionality improvement since I purchased the box.


I don't know when you purchased the box, so I can't make too relevant a comment in terms of what may be new or not since your purchase. That said, TiVo made a terrific product that does almost everything it was supposed to plus a lot more, and it fills most of my needs for a DVR platform. Nothing else even comes close.



dtremit said:


> I no longer feel that TiVo is providing me value for my subscription dollar.


That's almost as foolish as the statement about guide data being free. While the cost of most non-agricultural goods has been going down over the last few decades, the cost of services has not, adn in fact has in most cases risen significantly. The cost of TiVo's service, OTOH, remains the same. Seconly, the cost of the TiVo service putatively is not for the software load. People quite properly pay the same amount for their subscriptions to S1 and S2 TiVos as those owning S3 TiVos. All things considered, it is moronic to say the platform was good enough yesterday but not today.



dtremit said:


> The difficulty of managing storage


Managing storage is easy: the TiVo does it for you. There is never any reason for a TiVo owner to worry about management of the system's storage. If you want to archive a lot of things, set up a video server.



dtremit said:


> and scheduling among multiple units is getting to be a major pain for me.


That one I'll buy. The one area where the TiVo really falls flat is conflict resolution, whether among multiple units or on a single unit.



dtremit said:


> I would have liked to see TiVo address that, rather than roll out what appears to be a cosmetic redo that I can't have. I am not in any hurry to get rid of my two HDs, but I think this is the point where I have to say "no more money, TiVo." I seriously doubt my next DVR will be a TiVo.


I don't know what my next DVR might be. I don't expect it to cross my threshold for another 3 or 4 years.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

davezatz said:


> Yeah, it's crazy to think back on how much I paid for the S3 and Lifetime.


Well, I certainly could wish it had not have been as expensive as it was, but not only then, but also looking back, it would have been cheap at three times the price. Nothing, and I mean *NOTHING* could have compelled me to keep that #^#[email protected]% Scientific Atlanta 8300HD piece of [email protected]#% another minute. 'Best $800 I ever spent.



davezatz said:


> Without TiVoToGo and MRV even!


At the time I had only 1 TiVo, a Series I, and I was replacing it with the S3, so the lack of MRV was no big deal. My S3 didn't lack the main feature of TTG, so that also was no big deal. Even today, with three S3 class TiVos, I very rarely use MRV and I never use TTG. I just don't have any use for the former and the latter is just too slow and klunky.



davezatz said:


> In the meantime, I'm playing the field a bit more - digging Moxi's extender


Moxi isn't even close to being acceptable.



davezatz said:


> and will build a Ceton HTPC whenever that card hits.


'Possibly... two or three years after it comes out. And then only if there are Linux solutions for it that really knock my socks off.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

morac said:


> There's a number of differences between an iPhone and a TiVo.


Really? I hadn't noticed. 



morac said:


> There is no easy way to upgrade from one TiVo to another. It takes hours to re-enter your favorite channels, season passes, wish lists and other settings.


That's true. There are some work-arounds, but TiVo could surely make it easier. OTOH, it's a lot easier than swapping out Windows machines.



morac said:


> I think the biggest reason not to upgrade to the Premiere is the same reason I didn't upgrade to the HD or XL. I simply don't need another DVR at this time and the S3 I have now works fine.


Yeah, exactly. It really didn't matter what box TiVo came out with or what it could do, I wouldn't be upgrading any time soon.



morac said:


> I upgraded from my S2 to the S3 solely for HD support.


Well, I wanted CableCard and 100M Ethernet support very much, as well. SATA drives were also a welcome change.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

PatEllis15 said:


> Really the only people who buy EVERY iteration of a gadget/device are enthusiasts.


<cough> Are you saying I am not a TiVo enthusiast?



PatEllis15 said:


> If you just bought a tivo XL, Do you need to upgrade? I'd guess no.


Well, yeah, actually. I would say so. 'Not to a new model number, though.



PatEllis15 said:


> I've got a series 2 though, and as I look to upgrade, why WOULD I by an XL or HD, when I can buy a Premier?


Well, by my eye the superior UI of the S3, and also price, although I wouldn't buy an XL.



PatEllis15 said:


> I would say that Tivo would do well to keep a more regular hardware refresh in their plans though....


That would be nice, but I am skeptical of its practicality.


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

The one thing I have never understood is why Tivo (or for that matter any business model that depends on consistent subscription) seems to have a distaste for existing customers.

They seem to think that they "have you", so they give the potential new customer a deal, but then they quickly become an existing customer. Why do they forget or do not care about those that should be the foundation or core for their business is amazing to me.

Why not take care of your existing customers and your new customers?

My main problem with Tivo is in their pricing model. I have been a loyal (5+ years with 5 Tivos) and have gotten others hooked onto Tivo as well.

How do I benefit from the Premier? According to Tivo, they care enough to tell me to pay full price for the new box when I am also going to have to pay Comcast for any new M-Cards to go along with them. The ancillary costs are increasing apart from unit/subscription costs to Tivo.

I am considering Moxi (need to do more research) or even going to a Comcast box, which I never would have even dreamed of a year ago. Another option is to just cancel the accounts.

I will need HD boxes to replace my SD units, but $299 is just too high. Why not lower the price for your foundation subscribers to keep them happy and in the long run you gain through additional referrals and continued payment.

In these economic times, I thought Tivo would have aimed to have the price lower yet offer a little more (technology gets cheaper, hard drives, internal components, etc.) especially when you have buying power to drive the price down. Maybe I am wrong on this, but $299 is a lot of money to have to outlay and still have to pay for the cablecard each month.

After reading a lot of threads on a Tivo board, it really does seem like the Premier has been a letdown, whether it was overhyped by Tivo or the expectations were too high it does not seem to be the home run Tivo was probably looking for.

More like a bloop single and they got thrown out at second trying to stretch it into a double.

Do we like Tivo, yes. Will we have to make a decision soon about what to do _(stay or go)_, yes.

What are the chances that I buy a Premier at $299? hard to say, but dwindling...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> If I'm going to spend $300 (plus the cost of modifications), I want it to be for something that is actually better, not worse.


Typically I use the amount I pay to determine the number of years I think a device or object should last on major purchases. Basically for every 100.00 a product costs I expect to get one year of use out if it. If it doesn't last that long the product isn't a good one and not worth the money. If I get more use out of an item it's obviously a good deal.

I will never be able to justify 300.00 for a phone because I haven't owned one yet that has lasted more than two years before it failed.


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## Phasers (May 29, 2008)

Here are my 3 reasons why I won't be upgrading (also known as why I think the Tivo Premier was almost a slap in the face..).

1) Tuners: Seriously even u-verse gives me 4, and in my area more than 2 of those can be HD since they've upgraded bandwidth. Tivo doesn't have a bandwidth limitation, they just refused to put more than 2 tuners in their hardware. Just think how many would have upgraded (even for $500) if tivo had 3-4 total tuners on the device? Cable certainly supports it, as does OTA antenna.
2) 1080p support is a joke: most HD broadcasts are in 720p or 1080i max. You're lucky if you can find anything outside of directv/bluray in 1080p. So the 1080p support (for now anyways) is useless.
3) Features: aside from a glossier UI, a shiny box, a search (which I can use as beta), and a live preview guide (annoying), this box doesn't actually do anything my series 3 won't. I can't back up or sync season passes between units, the ethernet is still 100mbit (seriously?! Wtf btw), doesn't have built in wireless. 

Basically it boils down to this bottom line: There is NOTHING the Tivo Premier does functionally that my Series 3 can't do (and in some ways do better- i.e. OLED display). Frankly until Tivo decides to value function again, I most likely won't be upgrading.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Phasers said:


> Here are my 3 reasons why I won't be upgrading (also known as why I think the Tivo Premier was almost a slap in the face..).
> 
> 1) Tuners: Seriously even u-verse gives me 4, and in my area more than 2 of those can be HD since they've upgraded bandwidth. Tivo doesn't have a bandwidth limitation, they just refused to put more than 2 tuners in their hardware. Just think how many would have upgraded (even for $500) if tivo had 3-4 total tuners on the device? Cable certainly supports it, as does OTA antenna.
> 2) 1080p support is a joke: most HD broadcasts are in 720p or 1080i max. You're lucky if you can find anything outside of directv/bluray in 1080p. So the 1080p support (for now anyways) is useless.
> ...


I watch movies every week, not on BD or DirecTV, in 1080P24. And the only thing better is a Blu-ray Disc. I watch HDX titles from VUDU. VUDU has over three thousand 1080P24, HDX titles available for viewing. More titles than are even available on BD. And they have over 15K more titles in SD and 720P HD.

If TiVo were to integrate VUDU into their boxes, I could eliminate my four VUDU boxes. And with the Premieres HDMI 1.3 and 1080P output, the hardware is there for it. So teh TiVo could coutput the native 1080P24 video and bitstream the DD+ audio.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> I watch movies every week, not on BD or DirecTV, in 1080P24. And the only thing better is a Blu-ray Disc. I watch HDX titles from VUDU. VUDU has over three thousand 1080P24, HDX titles available for viewing. More titles than are even available on BD. And they have over 15K more titles in SD and 720P HD.
> 
> If TiVo were to integrate VUDU into their boxes, I could eliminate my four VUDU boxes. And with the Premieres HDMI 1.3 and 1080P output, the hardware is there for it. So teh TiVo could coutput the native 1080P24 video and bitstream the DD+ audio.


Now I want a VUDU :up:


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## Mike-Mike (Mar 2, 2010)

I don't have cable or direct tv, just an antenna, and the guide works on my tv... I think when it when digital it started sending the info


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Phasers said:


> the ethernet is still 100mbit (seriously?! Wtf btw)


I wouldn't worry about that, considering that the S3/HD don't get anywhere near 100 Mbps as it is. I understand the Premiere gets much closer; i.e., its transfers are indeed much faster.


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## wierdo (Apr 7, 2002)

sriggins said:


> I never said they give us everything we want. Your arguments are valid, yet the iPhone is still the best *phone* on the market and yet it does so much more.
> 
> The phone app is awesome; Never had people seen voicemail that was actually usable. Conference calls? Remember the days of put on hold, hang up by accident nonsense? Tap Merge Calls. Done.


No, the iPhone isn't the best *phone* on the market. Its reception sucks and the features you speak of (aside from visual voicemail) have been a part of every GSM phone since the year 2000. Including stupidly easy multi-party calls. To me, the iPhone is the Passport Echo of phones. Looks nice, but not very featureful.

Very much like Premiere isn't really a big change in the way we watch TV, actually. It's a nice box, but it doesn't really do much the old ones didn't. Being only 60% of the price of my latest phone, I'll probably buy one anyway. I like HD things.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

sdzc said:


> The one thing I have never understood is why Tivo (or for that matter any business model that depends on consistent subscription) seems to have a distaste for existing customers. ...


I'm not sure there's a distaste for us- more like we aren't 'good enough' for them.

no matter what they try with us, we dont float their boat.

So they are alwyas looking for some giant mythical new market that will help them be consistantly profitably.

so they are always looking for something better.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

I just wish they would do that while also getting back to what made them desirable as a product. These days I have a tough time coming up with reasons why the average person should buy a TiVo over the cable company DVR. I know with my mom I let her try Verizon's DVR first before throwing her back on a TiVo when she left DirecTV with TiVos to switch to FiOS.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> I'm not sure there's a distaste for us- more like we aren't 'good enough' for them.
> 
> no matter what they try with us, we dont float their boat.
> 
> ...


yeah, you would think TiVo would be fine with 
we want 3 or 4 tuners for not much more than the price now
We want HD UI but no ads and it has to run on our 5 year old box we all *****ed about the price of
we want new hardware for real cheap and we wnat to move our lifetime to the new box TiVo just lost moeny selling us for like 50$

wow how come they can not give us all that??
Instead they give us 20% off the new box and lifetime for 199$. The nerve.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> wow how come they can not give us all that??
> Instead they give us 20% off the new box and lifetime for 199$. The nerve.


I think you mean or here since I was only offered $100 off lifetime making it $199 but full price for the Tivo itself. I would have been extremely happy if they offered 20% off and lifetime for $199. I would have been ecstatic if I had the sellmoretivo.com options even with $299 lifetime.

I think it is also one of those things where it is common knowledge that TiVo doesn't want to be in the retail market. As a result I don't know if they do anything really in order to improve their sales more than they do them to try to demonstrate to cable companies they would be the better option to offer their customers. It is tough to fault TiVo for this since they do lose money in hardware, but it isn't the best thing to put out there when the home market is what is helping to keep interest.

I really think TiVo needs to have a good sitdown and decide what they want to be and how they want to do it. Right now it just doesn't feel planned and the plans they do have always seem to be late.

I almost wonder if the hardware was ready and they kept holding it back for the UI. They could have released the new hardware with no announcement with the new classic UI to get some Christmas sales. Then they could have announced the new UI when it was ready and also announce it will work on the TiVo Premiere which would download in the next update.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

wierdo said:


> No, the iPhone isn't the best *phone* on the market.


You can say what you want about the iPhone, but no one will argue that it changed phones forever. The problem is that no one has made a DVR that is as enjoyable to use as the iPhone/WebOS/Android. I compare TiVo to the the Palm Treo 650. Sure it was the best smartphone of its era, but still not good enough to break into the mainstream. If someone could make a DVR that was enjoyable to use and easy to obtain it would change the way people use DVRs.

The question is this new interface that much more enjoyable to use than the old one?


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

wmcbrine said:


> I wouldn't worry about that, considering that the S3/HD don't get anywhere near 100 Mbps as it is. I understand the Premiere gets much closer; i.e., its transfers are indeed much faster.


Actually it does .. my Tivo HD transfers movies about 8-9MB/sec which is the MAX of 100mb .. so it is indeed being network limited, and with gig chipsets costing about $1-$2 more (according to ifixit which is very reliable) this was a stupid decision. You will likely be able to do faster transfers over the new wireless n adapter then over wired .. sad !


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

bdraw said:


> You can say what you want about the iPhone, but no one will argue that it changed phones forever. The problem is that no one has made a DVR that is as enjoyable to use as the iPhone/WebOS/Android. I compare TiVo to the the Palm Treo 650. Sure it was the best smartphone of its era, but still not good enough to break into the mainstream. If someone could make a DVR that was enjoyable to use and easy to obtain it would change the way people use DVRs.
> 
> The question is this new interface that much more enjoyable to use than the old one?


Hrm .. I would argue that the iPhone has changed phones or at least cell phones forever. I am stuck with AT&T which I hate because no other phone on the market even years later can do what the iphone can. The iPhone however has evolved tremendously .. whereas Tivo has NOT. I bought my first Tivo back in January of 2000, dual tuners weren't quite enabled yet but came that summer.

Since then (10 years !) they have done absolutely nothing of substance with the box. Its still dual tuner, the guide is the same, the interface is the same, its a bit peppier then the original boxes but no one would call these 'fast'.

Tivo is dying for lack of functionality upgrades .. they better pick it up soon Moxi is the new kid on the block releasing new features every few months, I'm about to jump ship !


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

riekl said:


> Hrm .. I would argue that the iPhone has changed phones or at least cell phones forever. I am stuck with AT&T which I hate because no other phone on the market even years later can do what the iphone can. ......


not to drive off topic- but real quick- you should look at your options for android or webos. You might find one to be good enough to use on an alternative carrier.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

riekl said:


> Hrm .. I would argue that the iPhone has changed phones or at least cell phones forever. I am stuck with AT&T which I hate because no other phone on the market even years later can do what the iphone can. The iPhone however has evolved tremendously .. whereas Tivo has NOT. I bought my first Tivo back in January of 2000, dual tuners weren't quite enabled yet but came that summer.
> 
> Since then (10 years !) they have done absolutely nothing of substance with the box. Its still dual tuner, the guide is the same, the interface is the same, its a bit peppier then the original boxes but no one would call these 'fast'.
> 
> Tivo is dying for lack of functionality upgrades .. they better pick it up soon Moxi is the new kid on the block releasing new features every few months, I'm about to jump ship !


But it's still not better at doing what the TiVo has always done best, record TV.
And TiVo does it without me constantly having to baby it. I set up the season passes and it does it's own thing. All my shows are there for me to watch when I sit down on my schedule.

And I can transfer anything I record off FiOS or OTA to a PC for burning to BD, DVD, or tarnsfer to a hard drive.

The TiVo is still the best solution out there. The Moxi is the closest to teh TiVo but it certainly has not surpassed it's functionality yet.
I'd rather have the ability to transfer content than a third tuner. A third tuner gives me nothing I don't already have. But transferring content for permanent storage is a huge plus for the TiVo and a huge negative for the devices that can't.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> But it's still not better at doing what the TiVo has always done best, record TV.
> And TiVo does it without me constantly having to baby it. I set up the season passes and it does it's own thing. All my shows are there for me to watch when I sit down on my schedule.
> 
> And I can transfer anything I record off FiOS or OTA to a PC for burning to BD, DVD, or tarnsfer to a hard drive.
> ...


You apparently haven't looked at Moxi if you think a 3rd tuner is all it has going for it. How about live streaming ready and working today ? Buy the 3 tuner dvr and 2 moxi mates and poof you have 3 rooms all working off the same DVR, live tv streaming, watching recorded shows etc.

Moxi also has much better conflict detection resolution and management. Tivo is still my primary product but not likely for much longer this 'announcement' was a huge turnoff .. not a single new feature just fluff.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

riekl said:


> I am stuck with AT&T which I hate because no other phone on the market even years later can do what the iphone can. The iPhone however has evolved tremendously .. whereas Tivo has NOT. I bought my first Tivo back in January of 2000, dual tuners weren't quite enabled yet but came that summer.
> 
> Since then (10 years !) they have done absolutely nothing of substance with the box. Its still dual tuner, the guide is the same, the interface is the same, its a bit peppier then the original boxes but no one would call these 'fast'.
> 
> Tivo is dying for lack of functionality upgrades .. they better pick it up soon Moxi is the new kid on the block releasing new features every few months, I'm about to jump ship !


I disagree with this whole post
I have an AT&T Tilt 2 and it does everything an Iphone can do, and also does Flash  I also had the previous Tilt model and it could Rhapsody while iPhone could not then but did not have the Microsoft app store yet.
For both my phones I could do this, apparently non functional by riekl's standards thing of getting video from my TiVo onto the Phone for mobile viewing. That was not around when I first bought a TiVo 4 years ago.
Then came Amazon, then Rhapsody on my TiVo - getting parity with my phone again - then came Netflix in HD direct to the TiVo with no need for a computer being on. Also digital OTA is now an easy setup and guide data for OTA is easily integrated on TiVo.

Oh and the Moxi - has none of the above and its 3 tuners are digital only with no OTA. I would have to pay my cable company extra if I used Moxi. Netflix is only in SD and comes via a PC. The Moxi interface has gotten some major dings for its cumbersome design.

So Moxi has Hulu(via playon again) and extenders you can stream to but can not schedule shows from and you are left at just the 3 digital tuners. Not a good option at all for my family of 6.

no the whole analogy just breaks down and people should really just compare DVRs based on their needs versus some overarching generalities that come nowhere close to the mark.
Oh and I activated my first TiVo a single tuner 240 model on 12/28/2003. To lazy to look up the date for the S2 DT but it was well after summer 2000 and more like 2005


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> But it's still not better at doing what the TiVo has always done best, record TV.
> And TiVo does it without me constantly having to baby it. I set up the season passes and it does it's own thing. All my shows are there for me to watch when I sit down on my schedule.


That's only true of the series 2 TiVo. The series 3 has enough bugs to not be reliable.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> The series 3 has enough bugs to not be reliable.


Speak for yourself. I don't think I have ever missed a single recording due to the TiVO messing up.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

gweempose said:


> Speak for yourself. I don't think I have ever missed a single recording due to the TiVO messing up.


Nice. I've had TiVo's for almost 7 years and during that time My S2's have missed about 3 shows. This was mostly due to guide data snafu's where TWC and TiVo weren't on the same page. In the past 9 months since owning a THD, TiVo has missed 5 recordings on that box alone due to SDV issues (no Channel tuned) and Macroblocking (SDV or signal strength). All Missed by TiVo unless you choose to deflect and hold TiVo blameless for the performance of their boxes on anothers network. Just keep in mind the S2's have been doing fine during this time.

No, the current cable landscape makes the THD way more unreliable at present than my S2's ever were.


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## Videodrome (Jun 20, 2008)

gweempose said:


> Speak for yourself. I don't think I have ever missed a single recording due to the TiVO messing up.


My problems with Tivo has been freezeups. Even Replay had freezeup detection, and would reboot itself. Even the Tivo v4, still hasnt caught up to Replay, HD is the only difference.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

I've missed more recordings on my old S2 than I have on my S3. This was mainly because the S2 changed my cable box to the wrong channel with the IR blaster. When I moved to using a serial cable it was a lot better, but still not 100&#37; reliable.

The only times I've ever missed recordings on my S3 was either when my cable went out or the guide data was wrong.


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## Krandor (Jun 10, 2004)

MickeS said:


> But even when TiVo and Replay were the lone products out there, with arguably very good functionality both of them, they didn't manage to break through and make a profit. I believe that the market simply doesn't really exist as a stand-alone market.


I think it is that people do not want to pay for hardware and a monthly fee on top of it. Then then the cable company offers a similar service but with just the monthly fee people go for it since they are avoiding the up-front cost.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Krandor said:


> I think it is that people do not want to pay for hardware and a monthly fee on top of it. Then then the cable company offers a similar service but with just the monthly fee people go for it since they are avoiding the up-front cost.


But when TiVo tried that for a couple of years, it was a resounding failure. Series 2 boxes were free.

It's not the form or the combination of costs, TiVo has tried the variants, it's the total cost is perceived as not worth it to folks, compared to the alternatives. Not too much TiVo can do about that, except become the alternative - have the cable and satellite companies distribute TiVos. That's where the sub growth for TiVo will be, and that's what TiVo has been aiming at the past few years. The stand-alones are not going to be TiVo's primary growth business in the future.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

morac said:


> I've missed more recordings on my old S2 than I have on my S3. This was mainly because the S2 changed my cable box to the wrong channel with the IR blaster. When I moved to using a serial cable it was a lot better, but still not 100% reliable.
> 
> The only times I've ever missed recordings on my S3 was either when my cable went out or the guide data was wrong.


I had forgotten about issues with IR blasters. I used them for about a year and never had any problems, but I know many people in the forum did.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> But when TiVo tried that for a couple of years, it was a resounding failure. Series 2 boxes were free.
> 
> It's not the form or the combination of costs, TiVo has tried the variants, it's the total cost is perceived as not worth it to folks, compared to the alternatives. Not too much TiVo can do about that, except become the alternative - have the cable and satellite companies distribute TiVos. That's where the sub growth for TiVo will be, and that's what TiVo has been aiming at the past few years. The stand-alones are not going to be TiVo's primary growth business in the future.


When TiVo went to the bundled pricing I added two boxes, but that was just me. I also talked the bundle up to everyone I knew since it was such a good deal. TiVo's recent woes didn't start until the failure of the S3 and THD to work across varying MSO's and be competitive, i.e. no bundled pricing on the THD.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Nice. I've had TiVo's for almost 7 years and during that time My S2's have missed about 3 shows. This was mostly due to guide data snafu's where TWC and TiVo weren't on the same page. In the past 9 months since owning a THD, TiVo has missed 5 recordings on that box alone due to SDV issues (no Channel tuned) and Macroblocking (SDV or signal strength). All Missed by TiVo unless you choose to deflect and hold TiVo blameless for the performance of their boxes on anothers network. Just keep in mind the S2's have been doing fine during this time.
> 
> No, the current cable landscape makes the THD way more unreliable at present than my S2's ever were.


operative word there is SDV. And I'll guess Sdv on TWC with a sa/cisco tuning adapter?

there's surely a mess with SDV for some users- but it's not universal. Maybe they should put orange warning stickers on the outside of the boxes- "although tivo follows the specs as required by cablelabs, this box may or may not work if you have time warner cable"


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> ...TiVo's recent woes didn't start until the failure of the S3 and THD to work across varying MSO's ....


varying MSO's = predominantly TWC.

I've got two S3's for a total of about 7 years on them combined and I have yet to miss a recording becasue of something besides power issue, bad guide, or when i had an glitchy external drive (tried one of the FAP's and it died after a time- had to replace it with something else)

First I had an independant regional provider. THey got bought and integrated into comast over the past 2 years.

Moto head end/ cards. No SDV. works like a charm


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> operative word there is SDV. And I'll guess Sdv on TWC with a sa/cisco tuning adapter?
> 
> there's surely a mess with SDV for some users- but it's not universal. Maybe they should put orange warning stickers on the outside of the boxes- "although tivo follows the specs as required by cablelabs, this box may or may not work if you have time warner cable"


:up::up::up:


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> :up::up::up:


Lets print some up and apply them ourselves.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> When TiVo went to the bundled pricing I added two boxes, but that was just me. I also talked the bundle up to everyone I knew since it was such a good deal. TiVo's recent woes didn't start until the failure of the S3 and THD to work across varying MSO's and be competitive, i.e. no bundled pricing on the THD.


You're just flat wrong. TiVos inability to get stand-alone subs is not at all recent - you can check all the quarterly reports for the past 8 years!

The bundling with free TiVos was such an absolute failure that as it ended, TiVo took a special charge and took tens of millions of dollars of S2 TiVos off their inventory book. They had anticipated great demand that didn't ever show up, and once the HD switchover occurred, they had so much inventory that their accountants demanded they do something about it. The stand-alone sub numbers just did not increase strongly with free TiVos.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> Lets print some up and apply them ourselves.


get the REALLY BRIGHT orange sticker stock.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> You're just flat wrong. TiVos inability to get stand-alone subs is not at all recent - you can check all the quarterly reports for the past 8 years!
> 
> The bundling with free TiVos was such an absolute failure that as it ended, TiVo took a special charge and took tens of millions of dollars of S2 TiVos off their inventory book. They had anticipated great demand that didn't ever show up, and once the HD switchover occurred, they had so much inventory that their accountants demanded they do something about it. The stand-alone sub numbers just did not increase strongly with free TiVos.


You have obviously been following it closer than me. Did the subs drop like they did last year during that period? Adding fewer subs than anticipated is a different failure than driving people away.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> get the REALLY BRIGHT orange sticker stock.


Graphic corrupted on upload...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> That's only true of the series 2 TiVo. The series 3 has enough bugs to not be reliable.


I have nine S3 boxes. None of them have any issues. They have ALL been rock solid. No freezing, no reboots. I leave them alone and they do their job.


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## riekl (Jan 29, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I disagree with this whole post
> I have an AT&T Tilt 2 and it does everything an Iphone can do, and also does Flash  I also had the previous Tilt model and it could Rhapsody while iPhone could not then but did not have the Microsoft app store yet.


Not that we aren't a tad off topic here but uh .. the Tilt2 can do multitouch eh ? It can do on the fly video clip editing ? I can buy songs I hear on the radio from it (please don't try to offer at&T mobile music as a solution) ? It's not twice the bulk of the iPhone ? And I can plug my headphones in right ? Oh no 3.5mm jack thats right nope .. There is a phanfare app for me taking pictures of my kids and uploading them directly to the web ? Nope .. How about a Sonos app for controlling my whole house audio system ?

I think its pretty clear that while the competition is slowly catching up, there are still many things the iPhone does better, the main one being ease of use. I can with one hand do anything, dial, text, facebook, take/upload pictures, read/write email, control my home dvr and music system, read a news paper, run the tomtom app with the built in gps ... so much you can't do on the competition and the things you can do, you can't do as easily.

Flash .. yes .. no flash is a pain, but i would never trade my iphone for a non iphone for flash


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

gweempose said:


> Speak for yourself. I don't think I have ever missed a single recording due to the TiVO messing up.


I'll just let my signature respond to this.

No, on second thought I won't. I wouldn't touch a new TiVo product with a ten foot pole. If they haven't gotten the major bugs out of a product that has been on the market for a few years yet -- and they haven't -- I don't even want to think what there will be in the new one.


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

riekl said:


> Actually it does .. my Tivo HD transfers movies about 8-9MB/sec which is the MAX of 100mb .. so it is indeed being network limited, and with gig chipsets costing about $1-$2 more (according to ifixit which is very reliable) this was a stupid decision. You will likely be able to do faster transfers over the new wireless n adapter then over wired .. sad !


A 100Mbps NIC can pass 12MBps, which is about 25% more than the 9MBps you are getting. Here is a screen shot I did of my Media Center pushing 98% of a 100Mbps Nic. The Series 3 hardware can't do that.
http://hd.engadget.com/photos/vista-media-center-extenders/863527/


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## bdraw (Aug 1, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> The TiVo is still the best solution out there. The Moxi is the closest to teh TiVo but it certainly has not surpassed it's functionality yet.


I agree, which is exactly the problem. I mean if the current TiVo is the best there is, there really is something wrong with the market. The irony is that TiVo can't make money being the best.


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## puckettcg (Feb 10, 2006)

I've pre-ordered one. But, I need to replace my now doubly unreliable S3 (the original and the replacement box failed). Might get a second and finally hang-up my three SD boxes. I can see why folks would stick with their Cable DVR (that's the real competition - not other standalone DVR's). But, for me, even the multi-room FIOS DVR isn't sufficient to make me give up TIVO - even though I have one and love the multi-room feature. But 22 Hours of HD programming is like less than a week. Plus, the pricing on the FIOS DVR is 19.99/month - not exactly cheap.


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