# TiVo transcoder and IP-based set top box coming 'by the end of*summer'



## jfalkingham

Let the good times roll :up:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/23/2820527/tivo-transcoder-ip-based-set-top-box-release-summer


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## bradleys

Love it! I will be one of the first out of the box with this unit!

Edit

Am I the only one that reads this article to include both the transcoder (_*TiVo transcoder*_) and the preview(_*IP-based set top box*_)?

Yep - that is how Engadget reads it... Retail preview!

http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/23/tivo-q4-transcoder-ip-set-top-box/


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## aadam101

Woohoo!


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## Vect0r

Can *NOT* wait for the Preview STB!!! SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY TIVO!!!


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## nrc

Great news. It will be interesting to see how they price the IP STB.


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## BigJimOutlaw

I'm somewhat hesitant to call the IP-STB a Preview yet. The "IP" infers the box doesn't have a tuner. The Preview has a tuner and cablecard slot. It's a full-blown STB.

It might be a Preview, but Tivo would need to go through another waiver process first. They may do that, or they could bypass that entirely by foregoing tuners and going with a true IP-only Roku-like extender. Having no other information to go on yet, I'm kind of leaning in that direction.


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## CoxInPHX

If this as a STB, Were is the HDMI?

I would still like to see a full blown retail Preview as an option too.


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## Leon WIlkinson

So this would let you stream from all TiVos S1-S4?


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## Leon WIlkinson

Looks to be no...


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## Quake97

This should be good timing. My free DVR from FiOS comes up at the end of July. 

Joe


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## bradleys

> So this would let you stream from all TiVos S1-S4?


Very doubtful...


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## bradleys

BigJimOutlaw said:


> I'm somewhat hesitant to call the IP-STB a Preview yet. The "IP" infers the box doesn't have a tuner. The Preview has a tuner and cablecard slot. It's a full-blown STB.


Interesting question... Are we sure that TiVo's existing waiver couldn't be leveraged for this product? I haven't read it - just wondering out loud.

On one hand it makes seemingly no sense for TiVo to add yet another disparate product into inventory - on the other hand a tunerless extender may be the only approach that makes sense for the retail market.

Consider this:
A preview with a cablecard and guide data would need to pay a license fee for that data... An IP device (like the iPad) that uses an existing TiVo tuner and associated guide data apparently does not.

That approach should allow TiVo to sell the device without a subscription just like the iPad app with the transcoder.

On top of that we know that TiVo is ramping up its app development platform...

So a Roku type device that is also able to borrow the guide data and spare tuner from an existing TiVo? And no need for a service fee on this additional device?

All conjecture at this point, but I am liking the approach.

I currently have one TiVo split between two rooms with an HDMI splitter - this could be a far easier and elegant solution.


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## wmcbrine

Leon WIlkinson said:


> So this would let you stream from all TiVos S1-S4?


S1 TiVos don't even do MRV/TTG.

In S2 and S3 TiVos, the transfers aren't designed to be real-time, but there's no theoretical reason you couldn't MRV a program and just not store it. However, the fact that TiVo hasn't done that with the Premiere (i.e., it can't "stream" from an S2 or S3) is probably indicative of what you'll see on the new device.


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## ort

So this would let you stream TiVo to an iPhone or iPad?

How much do we think something like this would cost? Rough guess?

$200 bucks? $100 bucks?


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## bradleys

ort said:


> So this would let you stream TiVo to an iPhone or iPad?
> 
> How much do we think something like this would cost? Rough guess?
> 
> $200 bucks? $100 bucks?


It will allow you to both stream and MRV videos from the TiVo to the iPad. From what I have seen, if you stream live TV it will take over your television - one or the other, not both screens.

Price? - Hard to say... My guess $100 to $150 with no service fee.


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## sirfergy

I hope the Preview lets you manage recordings/season passes.


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## davezatz

I have a new pic of the transcoder... and someone mentioned being surveyed about a $169 price point.


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## RangerOne

Interesting. When did TiVo start to fall in love with yellow? I've now noticed is very prevalent on their website too.


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## BigJimOutlaw

bradleys said:


> Interesting question... Are we sure that TiVo's existing waiver couldn't be leveraged for this product? I haven't read it - just wondering out loud.
> 
> On one hand it makes seemingly no sense for TiVo to add yet another disparate product into inventory - on the other hand a tunerless extender may be the only approach that makes sense for the retail market.


The FCC ruling seemed to be for a specific product (Elite). One of the parties who commented on Tivo's waiver request did suggest to the FCC they eliminate the "analog rule" entirely, but the FCC shot that down and said they'll examine requests on a case-by-case basis. So I don't believe it's a blanket waiver that can cover the Preview too.

There's merit to both approaches. I agree the Roku approach is an easier sell for retail. And I'm totally there, especially if it can borrow a tuner for live streaming. That'd be great for secondary and tertiary TVs.

Edit: Megazone just posted a good, detailed writeup about the IP-STB:

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/02/24/tivo-to-launch-ip-only-stb-this-summer/


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## WhiskeyTango

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The FCC ruling seemed to be for a specific product (Elite). One of the parties who commented on Tivo's waiver request did suggest to the FCC they eliminate the "analog rule" entirely, but the FCC shot that down and said they'll examine requests on a case-by-case basis. So I don't believe it's a blanket waiver that can cover the Preview too.
> 
> There's merit to both approaches. I agree the Roku approach is an easier sell for retail. And I'm totally there, especially if it can borrow a tuner for live streaming. That'd be great for secondary and tertiary TVs.
> 
> Edit: Megazone just posted a good, detailed writeup about the IP-STB:
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/02/24/tivo-to-launch-ip-only-stb-this-summer/


So it's not even a retail product, it's aimed at the MSO's.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Maybe so, but it would be easy to bring to retail customers also.


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## Thunderclap

davezatz said:


> I have a new pic of the transcoder... and someone mentioned being surveyed about a $169 price point.


Add me to the list. I hope I can stream to a laptop as well. Though at $169 it seems a bit high, considering you can buy a Roku for $70 or so these days, and it does a lot more than just transcode.


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## bradleys

I am hoping for under $150 - but that pricepoint doesn't scare me off.

With their wireless N adapter running $70, I suppose I am a little more realistic in my estimates. Also, TiVo doesn't sell anywhere near the volume that Roku does - so they simply don't have the luxury of such tight margins.


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## rainwater

bradleys said:


> Also, TiVo doesn't sell anywhere near the volume that Roku does - so they simply don't have the luxury of such tight margins.


True, although this box is very much different internals as it's main purpose is transcoding video. This would make the hardware cost more than a Roku that is designed mostly for just streaming content and not transcoding. My guess is it would be more similar to a Slingbox Pro-HD as for the type of internals that it would require (of course without the digital tuners).


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## Dan203

I might have to buy both of these. I already have a device that streams TiVo to another room via wireless HDMI, but it's a bit clumsy and flaky, so a Preview type box would be a better solution. (I don't need another tuner, so a full blown Premiere is overkill) And the iPad thing is cool because I bought Slingbox app for my iPad only to discover that my Slingbox is broken and wont stream for more then a few minutes without cutting out. (capacitor problem) I don't want to give sling any more money so I'd rather buy the TiVo product to fill that need instead.

I wonder if the side-loading capability of the transcoder will be added to TiVo Desktop? I think people who own these boxes would like to use them to also capture H.264 versions of their TiVo files on their PCs as well, rather then having to expend CPU cycles to transcode after the transfer using TiVo Desktop Plus.

Dan


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## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> ...
> 
> I wonder if the side-loading capability of the transcoder will be added to TiVo Desktop? I think people who own these boxes would like to use them to also capture H.264 versions of their TiVo files on their PCs as well, rather then having to expend CPU cycles to transcode after the transfer using TiVo Desktop Plus.
> 
> Dan


someplace (gizmolovers or zatz's?) says the box will use DLNA standard stuff.

I am not really up on that- but i think you could just use windows media center or some other media player to download DLNA content- no?

if so there's no reason to even use tivo desktop- it's basically built into every pc already....


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## davezatz

MichaelK said:


> someplace (gizmolovers or zatz's?) says the box will use DLNA standard stuff.


Not I. But MZ did cover something by a product guy saying they are moving to DLNA. Not sure when, how, or where they intend to implement it. But the obvious use case of home media to a TiVo. Protected DLNA-esque transport doesn't really help us beyond TiVo created endpoints.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/01/...tor-product-marketing-talks-about-the-future/



Dan203 said:


> I wonder if the side-loading capability of the transcoder will be added to TiVo Desktop? I think people who own these boxes would like to use them to also capture H.264 versions of their TiVo files on their PCs as well, rather then having to expend CPU cycles to transcode after the transfer using TiVo Desktop Plus.


I dunno... I could see TiVo Desktop going away entirely. Or at least dying of atrophy once the Transcoder is released.



rainwater said:


> True, although this box is very much different internals as it's main purpose is transcoding video. This would make the hardware cost more than a Roku that is designed mostly for just streaming content and not transcoding. My guess is it would be more similar to a Slingbox Pro-HD as for the type of internals that it would require (of course without the digital tuners).


Yeah, it's more specialized and probably powerful hardware to do what it's doing with four simultaneous streams. Also, TiVo won't move as many boxes as Roku - so smaller production runs would drive up costs too.


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## bradleys

davezatz said:


> I dunno... I could see TiVo Desktop going away entirely. Or at least dying of atrophy once the Transcoder is released.


It would be cool if I could easily transcode / side load movies from my server to the iPad using Something like Pytivo. Yes - there are other ways, but everything else is mutistep and takes a lot of time and often fails.

This would be an elegant solution.


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## mattack

davezatz said:


> I dunno... I could see TiVo Desktop going away entirely. Or at least dying of atrophy once the Transcoder is released.


Wait, Tivo Desktop is just the way to utilize Tivo To Go, right? (Being on a Mac, since I refuse to buy Toast, I just use kmttg.)

Basically, while having this box to be able to do the transcoding is good, I still would want the ability to download the un-modified recordings optionally. (e.g. when I keep musical performances of TV shows.)

I don't have any Premieres, nor an iPad, but something like this is compelling. I actually like the transcoding part more than the stream-within-the-house part.

A wish that will never happen though -- a way to have subtitles on the transcoded video -- or even open captions (i.e. burned in the recording).. e.g. to use an iPad while on a treadmill. I already use captions most of the time, and very very often record to my other recorder so I can watch faster than realtime.. and leave captions on then.. So end up with open captions.


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## rainwater

mattack said:


> Wait, Tivo Desktop is just the way to utilize Tivo To Go, right? (Being on a Mac, since I refuse to buy Toast, I just use kmttg.)
> 
> Basically, while having this box to be able to do the transcoding is good, I still would want the ability to download the un-modified recordings optionally. (e.g. when I keep musical performances of TV shows.)


I doubt they will be removing the ability to use TiVoToGo to transfer original recordings especially since few people will buy this transcoding box initially. With the real-time transcoding, they could actually update TiVo Desktop so it never has to do the transcoding on the PC if you have one of these new boxes which would be nice.


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## djkid4

What exactly are these products for?


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## bradleys

djkid4 said:


> What exactly are these products for?


Transcoder
http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/02/23/tivo-to-ship-place-shifting-transcoder-box-this-year/

IP STB
http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/02/24/tivo-to-launch-ip-only-stb-this-summer/


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## nrc

From megazone's story...


> In the retail market youd be much more likely to have people using iffy network connections  weak wireless or powerline connections, etc. And theyre more likely to blame TiVo if the product doesnt work well than to recognize a network issue.


Inconceivable!


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## megazone

nrc said:


> From megazone's story...
> 
> Inconceivable!


Yeah, I know, consumers never blame the vendor. ;-)


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## jfalkingham

I'm not scared off by a $169 price point. If this was doing the dirty work to allow my programs from tivo to ipad wirelessly loaded to take on the road, its worth it. Allow it to stream to another tv live and i dont need the expense of another cable card. 

I've used plex through my jailbroken apple tv2 to access TiVo recordings, but it was flaky at best. Couple this unit with comcast ondemand and i have no reason to go back to DIRECTV or Fios.


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## Dan203

mattack said:


> A wish that will never happen though -- a way to have subtitles on the transcoded video -- or even open captions (i.e. burned in the recording).. e.g. to use an iPad while on a treadmill. I already use captions most of the time, and very very often record to my other recorder so I can watch faster than realtime.. and leave captions on then.. So end up with open captions.


MP4 files support a basic text format for captions. Converting from the 608/708 format commonly used for TV to the text format used for MP4 files is not that hard and easily something they could build into this box. In fact Apple devices might even support 608/708 captions right in the MP4 file. At least I think I read that somewhere. So they might not even need to convert the captions for playback on an iDevice.

Dan


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## mattack

Though I am totally guessing that this converter will convert to 'regular video' files to go on the iPad, and play with the built in player.. Not some custom TiVo video player.. right?

Is there caption support on the iPad player? I don't know.


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## Dan203

They'll likely be a standard .mp4 or .m4v file on the iPad. However having to grab them off of the iPad if you want them on a PC is a round about way of doing it.

Dan


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## lrhorer

> Users will be able to view the streams in real time, or they can be saved on the device for later viewing  which is how side-loading is accomplished.


How can they get away with this without breaking CableLabs requirements?


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## Dan203

Side loading is no different then saving the file to a PC using TiVoToGo. I assume it will have the same restrictions too, meaning you wont be able to side load any shows which are flagged as copy once.

Dan


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## mattack

Dan203 said:


> MP4 files support a basic text format for captions. Converting from the 608/708 format commonly used for TV to the text format used for MP4 files is not that hard and easily something they could build into this box. In fact Apple devices might even support 608/708 captions right in the MP4 file. At least I think I read that somewhere. So they might not even need to convert the captions for playback on an iDevice.


Yup, I saw this today on macintouch:
Bitfield's iSubtitle 2.7 adds "soft" subtitles to a movie without altering the original file, with support for playback on the iPod (Touch, Classic), iPhone (2G, 3G), and Apple TV as well as in any application that can play a QuickTime movie (including iTunes).

the app page is:
http://www.bitfield.se/isubtitle/index.html

So I presume there are already tools to pull the line 21 analog captions out of a file? (I don't exactly understand how we still have 'analog' captions in a digital world.. Is line 21 simply digitized separately/specially in the MPEG file? It would seem to me that the MPEG compression would totally mess with the "digitalness" of line 21)


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## lrhorer

mattack said:


> So I presume there are already tools to pull the line 21 analog captions out of a file?


Surely. It's text, after all, and digitizing text is easy.



mattack said:


> (I don't exactly understand how we still have 'analog' captions in a digital world.. Is line 21 simply digitized separately/specially in the MPEG file?


Well, it can be, but there is a set of standards for digital closed captions.



mattack said:


> It would seem to me that the MPEG compression would totally mess with the "digitalness" of line 21)


I don't know why you say that. Line 21 (and most of the other lines in the VBR) is simply a string of white and black spaces that get interpreted as data, rather than a picture. Digitizing line 21 and including it with the other 480 lines doesn't change its character, and in fact this is precisely what the TiVo does with analog content. Digital content doesn't usually carry the line in the first place.


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## lrhorer

Dan203 said:


> Side loading is no different then saving the file to a PC using TiVoToGo. I assume it will have the same restrictions too, meaning you wont be able to side load any shows which are flagged as copy once.


In other words, it's worthless.


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## CuriousMark

lrhorer said:


> How can they get away with this without breaking CableLabs requirements?


I believe that if it is re-encoded at a lower quality and resolution the content creators will give them a bye on the requirements. Think of it as being analogous to the analog hole. Of course since the decision is up to the MO and content providers and there is no standard, the results will be all over the map and some things will be allowed while others won't and a given program might be provided by one MSO and held back by another.

In other words, no change from what we have now.


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## atmuscarella

lrhorer said:


> In other words, it's worthless.


Well it may well be 100% worthless to you, that is a personal decision. It likely will be 100% worthless to me as I don't own an android or ios phone or tablet and only have one TV so neither device does anything for me.

But it will be useful to those who want some or all of the features these 2 devices will offer and is certainly better than not offering the devices and becomes a gateway for future features.


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## shwru980r

It seems like customers with multiple premieres would replace some of them with these new devices, if the new devices don't require a subscription. I would think Tivo would have to have a high price point on these devices to offset the loss of premiere subscriptions.


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## aadam101

shwru980r said:


> It seems like customers with multiple premieres would replace some of them with these new devices, if the new devices don't require a subscription. I would think Tivo would have to have a high price point on these devices to offset the loss of premiere subscriptions.


I don't see how this is a replacement for a Tivo unit. The ability to transfer (or stream) the recording to an iPad doesn't serve as a replacement to a TV in another room. Will we be able to connect the iPad to a TV and watch the video that way? Maybe then it could serve as a replacement but I don't think many people connect their iPads to the TV. Maybe if it works with an Apple TV.....


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## atmuscarella

aadam101 said:


> I don't see how this is a replacement for a Tivo unit. The ability to transfer (or stream) the recording to an iPad doesn't serve as a replacement to a TV in another room. Will we be able to connect the iPad to a TV and watch the video that way? Maybe then it could serve as a replacement but I don't think many people connect their iPads to the TV. Maybe if it works with an Apple TV.....


There are 2 devices being talked about:


Transcoder: Can transcode recorded content from a Premiere and stream it through your wireless router to an android/ios phone/tablet on same network or load the same content onto your android/ios device for remote viewing if the content is allowed to be copied. 
IP STP: Can stream content from a Premiere including live content from a tuner to another TV on the same network plus provide access to the Internet streaming stuff you can get on a Premiere. This device could replace a DVR if you have enough tuners on your other DVR(s). 
What the exact specs are, what the devices will cost, and if there are any subscription costs are all unknown at this time.


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## trip1eX

NIce if the box is under $100. Just want a cheap way to get a Tivo on other tvs without paying $500 per TV if I don't need extra tuners. That is if I still had Tivo. Still this would definitely make me think about coming back.

Amazing if it actually comes out this year let alone by end of summer.

Could care less about streaming content to the ipad.


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## aadam101

atmuscarella said:


> There are 2 devices being talked about:
> 
> 
> Transcoder: Can transcode recorded content from a Premiere and stream it through your wireless router to an android/ios phone/tablet on same network or load the same content onto your android/ios device for remote viewing if the content is allowed to be copied.
> IP STP: Can stream content from a Premiere including live content from a tuner to another TV on the same network plus provide access to the Internet streaming stuff you can get on a Premiere. This device could replace a DVR if you have enough tuners on your other DVR(s).
> What the exact specs are, what the devices will cost, and if there are any subscription costs are all unknown at this time.


So the "One Box" has just become THREE boxes? lol


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## Scyber

Dan203 said:


> They'll likely be a standard .mp4 or .m4v file on the iPad. However having to grab them off of the iPad if you want them on a PC is a round about way of doing it.
> 
> Dan


One difficulty with using mp4 or m4v for sideloading is that it likely won't be playable until completely transcoded. mp4's have metadata embedded in the file that require the full file to work properly. That is why mp4's aren't used for live streaming and is one of the reasons why apple invented the Http Live Streaming protocol (HLS). If the transcoder supports Live TV & streaming to iOS, then it will likely support HLS anyway.

It will be interesting to see how this limitation applies to sideloading. But it may not be an issue b/c the point of sideloading isn't for viewing immediately.


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## bradleys

> Transcoder: Can transcode recorded content from a Premiere and stream it through your wireless router to an android/ios phone/tablet on same network or load the same content onto your android/ios device for remote viewing if the content is allowed to be copied.
> IP STP: Can stream content from a Premiere including live content from a tuner to another TV on the same network plus provide access to the Internet streaming stuff you can get on a Premiere. This device could replace a DVR if you have enough tuners on your other DVR(s).


On the Transcoder: I love this approach. We know that the TiVo does not have enough horsepower to transcode on the fly (heck my Windows Home Server chokes at that task) and I do not want to have to replace my TiVo's for a Series 5 model to get this functionality. And it only takes one LAN attached device to support mulitple Premiers. Fantastic and kudos to TiVo for implementing this modular solution. I will be the first in line for one of these boxes.

On the STP: We have been begging for a whole home solution for quite a while and on the surface this sounds good. One central box with several satellite devices. The Central box owns all of the Tuners and and storage - the extenders borrow a tuner / feed as needed using the MRS technology already deployed. My only caviate is - you need to be able to use multiple live tuners at one time. So on the STP, I can watch one live channel and on the Premier I should be able to watch a second live channel.


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## MichaelK

lrhorer said:


> In other words, it's worthless.


for YOU if you have Time Warner. But for those of us without draconian providers it's not worthless.

Your comments aren't helpful to those who might be coming here to learn something without including the facts of your setup.



lrhorer said:


> How can they get away with this without breaking CableLabs requirements?


as above most of us DONT have time warner so there are no flags.


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## todd_j_derr

bradleys said:


> On the STP: We have been begging for a whole home solution for quite a while and on the surface this sounds good. One central box with several satellite devices. The Central box owns all of the Tuners and and storage - the extenders borrow a tuner / feed as needed using the MRS technology already deployed. My only caviate is - you need to be able to use multiple live tuners at one time. So on the STP, I can watch one live channel and on the Premier I should be able to watch a second live channel.


This is exactly how the Moxi works - the tuners can be "allocated" to recordings, live TV on the main box, or live TV (with Pause/Rewind capabilities) on the satellite boxes. If you try to exceed the number of available tuners it will prompt for what you want to preempt. Also the satellites automatically release the tuners after a period of inactivity.

FWIW, the satellite boxes (mates) were $300, or $200 as a bundle with the DVR.


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## mattack

lrhorer said:


> Surely. It's text, after all, and digitizing text is easy.


WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

The closed captions are *encoded* into line 21 of the video signal.. not as "text".. but as digital code (which of course, ends up being shown as text by the decoder, but there are also minimal formatting options and such..)


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## mattack

lrhorer said:


> Digital content doesn't usually carry the line in the first place.


Then again, how, when I am getting a pure digital channel, am I able to use "analog" captions on the Tivo?


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## jcthorne

lrhorer said:


> In other words, it's worthless.


Only wortless if you purchase your programming from a vendor that disables your use of the content. Tivo is providing a capablitly, its your programming vendor that is rendering the content 'worthless'


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## jcthorne

Scyber said:


> One difficulty with using mp4 or m4v for sideloading is that it likely won't be playable until completely transcoded. mp4's have metadata embedded in the file that require the full file to work properly. That is why mp4's aren't used for live streaming and is one of the reasons why apple invented the Http Live Streaming protocol (HLS). If the transcoder supports Live TV & streaming to iOS, then it will likely support HLS anyway.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this limitation applies to sideloading. But it may not be an issue b/c the point of sideloading isn't for viewing immediately.


For the tivo and properly encoded mp4 files, this is not a current limitation. IE I can begin transfer of an HD mp4 file to tivo and play it almost immeadiatly. Far before the transfer completes. Again, a properly encoded IMSA standard streamable mp4 file. Also does not require transcoding at all. Mp4 files with h264 video and ac3 audio are played natively by tivo.


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## Dan203

Regarding the captions... Line 21 captions are already digital. In the analog days they used a trick to transmit that digital data over an analog signal, but now that we're all digital the line 21 data is just included in the MPEG stream as private packets.

Regarding the MP4 files... MP4 files can only be streamed if the MOOV atom is at the start of the file. The problem is that the MOOV atom can only be created after the file is encoded and all the various video parameters are known. So there is no way TiVo could create an MP4 file that was being recoded on the fly and also had it's MOOV atom at the start of the file. Which means it's unlikely you'll be able to play a side loaded file until after it has completed transferring. (unless TiVo knows a trick with MP4s that I don't) That being said why would you ever need to do this? If you want to watch the show now then you can stream it. Side loading is for viewing it later, streaming is for watching it now.

One thing I hope is that the player in the TiVo app has some trick play features for side loaded programs. It's hard to skip commercials on the standard Apple player. However I have seen other apps which offer additional features to the standard Apple player like 30 second skip and 8 second rewind, so it should be possible for TiVo to offer something similar.

Dan


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## emkorial

dumb question.. Will this let me watch recorded shows on TV's with no Tivos on them?

Edit: looks like it won't, which sucks. I have no desire to watch TV on an iPad or a phone. I really want an extender so I can watch Tivo shows on the other TV's in my house that don't have Tivo's hooked up to them.


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## atmuscarella

emkorial said:


> dumb question.. Will this let me watch recorded shows on TV's with no Tivos on them?
> 
> Edit: looks like it won't, which sucks. I have no desire to watch TV on an iPad or a phone. I really want an extender so I can watch Tivo shows on the other TV's in my house that don't have Tivo's hooked up to them.


Recommend you re-read a few posts you seem to have missed allot. Try:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8973792#post8973792​


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## Fofer

aadam101 said:


> So the "One Box" has just become THREE boxes? lol


Four, actually, once you add in a Roku, to suitably stream all the other online content TiVo doesn't acknowledge or fails miserably at


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## GatorBlues

emkorial said:


> dumb question.. Will this let me watch recorded shows on TV's with no Tivos on them?
> 
> Edit: looks like it won't, which sucks. I have no desire to watch TV on an iPad or a phone. I really want an extender so I can watch Tivo shows on the other TV's in my house that don't have Tivo's hooked up to them.


Me too. I want to watch, pause, FF, and RW live TV, and access recordings in the various rooms where I watch from time to time, like a workout room, the bedroom, etc. My family watches in only two places at once, so I don't want to pay for a full Tivo in every room nor do I want to rent a cable box in every room. If this Tivo extender (or the announced Ceton plus extenders) will let me pull what I need from the main box into the remote room housing the extender, I'll sign up in a heartbeat if it's reasonably priced.


----------



## morac

mattack said:


> Though I am totally guessing that this converter will convert to 'regular video' files to go on the iPad, and play with the built in player.. Not some custom TiVo video player.. right?


I'm nearly 100% certain it will be a custom TiVo video player. I think the video they demoed this in list month was using a newer version of the TiVo iOS app.

The built in video app on the iPad can only play programs that are downloaded via the iTunes Store or synced via iTunes. Apps can't access the video app data (i.e. videos). TiVo could put the transferred videos in the camera roll, but that wouldn't make much sense.


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## Dan203

Plus they'll want to have trick play buttons. The Apple player doesn't have any trick play functionality other then play/pause and the slider bar. Hardly ideal for skipping commercials.

Dan


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## mattack

Dan203 said:


> Plus they'll want to have trick play buttons. The Apple player doesn't have any trick play functionality other then play/pause and the slider bar. Hardly ideal for skipping commercials.


There's FF. at least on my iPhone, for video podcasts.


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## shwru980r

aadam101 said:


> I don't see how this is a replacement for a Tivo unit. The ability to transfer (or stream) the recording to an iPad doesn't serve as a replacement to a TV in another room.


I disagree. I think some customers will be replacing a bedroom TV and Tivo with an Ipad.



aadam101 said:


> Will we be able to connect the iPad to a TV and watch the video that way? Maybe then it could serve as a replacement but I don't think many people connect their iPads to the TV. Maybe if it works with an Apple TV.....


There is a second separate Tivo device coming out to stream directly to a TV. No need for an intermediate ipad.


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## aadam101

shwru980r said:


> There is a second separate Tivo device coming out to stream directly to a TV. No need for an intermediate ipad.


Which carries a separate cost and possibly a separate subscription cost.


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## bradleys

aadam101 said:


> and possibly a separate subscription cost.


Or not... My guess is that this device will not have a subscription fee - but without one, that also means the price will not be subsidized.

Neither of us will know until TiVo releases the device.


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## slowbiscuit

Neither of these should have a sub cost, if Tivo hopes to sell more than a few of them.


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## atmuscarella

slowbiscuit said:


> Neither of these should have a sub cost, if Tivo hopes to sell more than a few of them.


I do not think there will be subscriptions for either product, but the only reason for TiVo to make either product is to make a profit doing so. There are 2 ways to do that, one would be if either or both products increased DVR sales and the other would be by selling these new products at a profitable price point.

My guess is that neither product will actually increase DVRs sales and as other have mention the IP-STB actually could reduce DVR sales. So the bottom line is we can expect these products to be sold at a fairly high price relative to the $99 price tag that the Premiere has, other wise it would be foolish for TiVo to build them. The only place I would possibly expect to see "deals" on them is if TiVo bundles them with the sale of a new DVR.


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## bradleys

> My guess is that neither product will actually increase DVRs sales and as other have mention the IP-STB actually could reduce DVR sales.


And this is where I disagree. TiVo has not been attractive to a lot of users in both the retail and MSO markets because of the lack of a whole home solution. In my opinion, without one they might as well close up shop.

Yes TiVo would make more money selling multiple TiVo's per home - but at some point it becomes a diminishing return when nobody buys your systems. With the IP boxes - a package system that includes an Elite and a couple of satellite boxes becomes very attractive and marketable

No - these boxes will not require a sub and will retail around $150 each.


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## tomm1079

where i think the IP box could help alot if the MSO. it would be pretty sweet if a person could get an Elite and Preview from charter and then buy an IP box for a 3rd room


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## rainwater

bradleys said:


> No - these boxes will not require a sub and will retail around $150 each.


I would be pretty shocked if they could get a transcoder box that cheap without taking a loss on each one. And I don't see how that would benefit TiVo. Of course, I hope that is the price they retail


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## nrc

I always figured that the Preview would require a monthly fee since a tuner would require guide and it would be tough to include a cableCard tuner along with everything else and offer it at a price that could offset the loss of whatever subs it would cannibalize. 

Without a tuner the IP box would likely do less to canniblize subs and could make a profit at a reasonable price. TiVo might like to charge something to enable a whole home solution to non-subbed devices, but I think they probably realize that a whole home solution is becoming the expectation.


----------



## bradleys

rainwater said:


> I would be pretty shocked if they could get a transcoder box that cheap without taking a loss on each one. And I don't see how that would benefit TiVo. Of course, I hope that is the price they retail


I suppose that would depend on what they build into it. No hard drive, no tuner, no wifi - although it _might_ come with a built-in moCa bridge. Pretty basic hardware... It is possible that it could be more, but not significantly more. $200 - $250 max and most probably less if purchased as part of a package.

The Idea is to make a competitive whole home TiVo product and increase subs, not to simply cater to us...



> Without a tuner the IP box would likely do less to canniblize subs and could make a profit at a reasonable price. TiVo might like to charge something to enable a whole home solution to non-subbed devices, but I think they probably realize that a whole home solution is becoming the expectation.


I agree with you. While the preview would operate similar to a full TiVo, and most likely require a service, the IP box is more related to the iPad app and should not.

I suspect this is why TiVo is developing this IP box - unlike a preview, it should be affordable in both hardware design and licensing fees.

Time will tell.


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## atmuscarella

bradleys said:


> And this is where I disagree. TiVo has not been attractive to a lot of users in both the retail and MSO markets because of the lack of a whole home solution. In my opinion, without one they might as well close up shop.
> 
> Yes TiVo would make more money selling multiple TiVo's per home - but at some point it becomes a diminishing return when nobody buys your systems. With the IP boxes - a package system that includes an Elite and a couple of satellite boxes becomes very attractive and marketable
> 
> No - these boxes will not require a sub and will retail around $150 each.


My Statements were about retail only, I have a significantly different view for what will sell and is needed in the MSO market.

In retail I really do not believe that as of today there are a large number of people that have not purchased a TiVo DVR because something like an IP-STB was not available. If the IP-STB was available tomorrow how many people here would buy anther TiVo DVR because of it? I am sure there are some I just don't believe it is a significant number.

I do agree that in the future a "whole home solution" will be expected and having devises like the IP-STB will be needed as people turn over their existing equipment and make decisions on if they are going with TiVo equipment or not. However the main problems that TiVo has will still exist, they still will be locked out of the retail market for Satellite users and will still have to deal with issues cable cards and tuning adapters present for the cable market.


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## slowbiscuit

atmuscarella said:


> However the main problems that TiVo has will still exist, they still will be locked out of the retail market for Satellite users and will still have to deal with issues cable cards and tuning adapters present for the cable market.


But AllVid is going to take care of all this for us, right? Right???


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## slowbiscuit

nrc said:


> Without a tuner the IP box would likely do less to canniblize subs and could make a profit at a reasonable price. TiVo might like to charge something to enable a whole home solution to non-subbed devices, but I think they probably realize that a whole home solution is becoming the expectation.


That's pretty much the way I see it - the IP box could be a good alternative to paying full boat for a DVR on secondary sets. I'm sure quite a few folks would love to have Tivo everywhere but don't want to shell out the money.


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## classicsat

slowbiscuit said:


> But AllVid is going to take care of all this for us, right? Right???


If it passes without too many encumberances, yes.


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## bradleys

atmuscarella said:


> My Statements were about retail only, I have a significantly different view for what will sell and is needed in the MSO market.
> 
> In retail I really do not believe that as of today there are a large number of people that have not purchased a TiVo DVR because something like an IP-STB was not available. If the IP-STB was available tomorrow how many people here would buy anther TiVo DVR because of it? I am sure there are some I just don't believe it is a significant number.
> 
> I do agree that in the future a "whole home solution" will be expected and having devises like the IP-STB will be needed as people turn over their existing equipment and make decisions on if they are going with TiVo equipment or not. However the main problems that TiVo has will still exist, they still will be locked out of the retail market for Satellite users and will still have to deal with issues cable cards and tuning adapters present for the cable market.


TiVo has a paltry 2 million retail Subs in maybe 1 million households and you see no growth in that market? Really?

The problem is that TiVo has had a very hard time showing value in the up front costs of the unit. And with all the MSO's starting to deliver whole home solutions it is going to get harder and harder if someone has to pay full price for each TV.

With these two new products TiVo is keeping fresh and has a better story to tell. Yes, cable operator contracts are important to TiVo and something that is going to bring a much needed revenue stream - and make it easier to market to larger audiences... But this IP box is a huge boon to the retail market and I do believe can grow their market share in that space.


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## atmuscarella

bradleys said:


> TiVo has a paltry 2 million retail Subs in maybe 1 million households and you see no growth in that market? Really?


 Yes I really do not see an IP-STB changing the retail market much. TiVo has had a superior product for over a decade the issues are still the same with or without a IP-STB, what I do believe is that it may help stop people from leaving TiVo at retail in the future, but I am not even sure of that.



bradleys said:


> The problem is that TiVo has had a very hard time showing value in the up front costs of the unit. And with all the MSO's starting to deliver whole home solutions it is going to get harder and harder if someone has to pay full price for each TV.


While using an IP-STB can reduce over all costs it really isn't going to reduce up front costs for new too TiVo users that much if at all. Very few households with multiple TVs are going to find 2 tuners sufficient so we are talking about buying Elites with IP-STB extenders. If we look at todays prices with lifetime service and assuming the IP-STB is $150 you get; for 2 TVs $1100 to buy 2 Premieres and $1150 for an Elite with 1 IP-STB. For 3 TVs you have $1600 for 3 Premieres and $1300 for an Elite with 2 IP-STBs. Where the savings come in is the reduced cost of subscriptions for people paying monthly and the reduced cost of cable cards and tuning adapters. So I don't really see the IP-STBs changing the costs enough to increase sales of TiVo DVRs.



bradleys said:


> With these two new products TiVo is keeping fresh and has a better story to tell. Yes, cable operator contracts are important to TiVo and something that is going to bring a much needed revenue stream  and make it easier to market to larger audiences... But this IP box is a huge boon to the retail market and I do believe can grow their market share in that space.


I agree with your first line and don't agree that it is going to be a huge boon. I look at this like I did when they added Hulu Plus and Pandora - they needed to do it but I don't expect any significant change in sales of TiVo DVRs.

I hope I am wrong, but it really looks like retail DVRs are going to stay a niche market and the MSO market is where the chance for real growth is.


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## daveak

Looking at what the extender really needs to do, How could it cost much more than the a Roku box that can push 1080P? Keeping this in mind, this box could be a money maker (at least a little...) and help propel overall sales - maybe some folks will have one or two less DVRs, but I think more households would be willing to get into the TiVo system. IMHO.


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## bradleys

I do agree that the future profitability of TiVo is hugely tied to the MSO contracts and I am OK with that. But I am not ready to abandon the retail market...

I am also not afraid of the MSO relationships. It is bringing dollars and development initiatives to a product that had unfortunately become a little stale in the last couple of years. The retail market can only benefit from these relationships. None of these products or enhancements would exist without them...

But that does not mean that the retail market is living off the MSO scraps either, we are not hobbled by MSO limitations and I believe the IP Box will primarily be targeted toward the retail market with the Preview being targeted to MSO's. 

For the retail market to grow TiVo needs to move forward with the new app development platform and leverage a compelling whole home solution.

Would an Elite + 2 IP boxes be a compelling package for the consumer market? It would be for me - but we will have to see how the products are packaged and priced.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Tivo's future profitability is almost 100% tied to MSO's (contracts and/or litigation). Tivo doesn't do significant retail business, full stop. Retail subs have only gone down for a long time. As it stands, retail subs will literally be zero in about 6-7 years at the current rate of loss. Things like the IP streamer might stop a tiny bit of bleeding, but in real numbers it's really hard to change the longstanding downward movement.

That's why their game is all about MSO's *now*. Sure we exist and they'll offer us service, hardware and accessories but we are already a side project. The trend will only go in one direction (down) unless something really big happens that disrupts the market on the whole.


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## classicsat

daveak said:


> Looking at what the extender really needs to do, How could it cost much more than the a Roku box that can push 1080P? Keeping this in mind, this box could be a money maker (at least a little...) and help propel overall sales - maybe some folks will have one or two less DVRs, but I think more households would be willing to get into the TiVo system. IMHO.


It needs to have the IP paid for, which in normal TiVo boxes is part of the subscription fee.


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## atmuscarella

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Tivo's future profitability is almost 100% tied to MSO's (contracts and/or litigation). Tivo doesn't do significant retail business, full stop. Retail subs have only gone down for a long time. As it stands, retail subs will literally be zero in about 6-7 years at the current rate of loss. Things like the IP streamer might stop a tiny bit of bleeding, but in real numbers it's really hard to change the longstanding downward movement.
> 
> That's why their game is all about MSO's *now*. Sure we exist and they'll offer us service, hardware and accessories but we are already a side project. The trend will only go in one direction (down) unless something really big happens that disrupts the market on the whole.


Your analyses is about where my thoughts are at.

Under current conditions (being locked out of Satellite, having to use cable cards & tuning adapters, the availability of good low cost non-DVR Internet streaming devices, & availability good enough/improving cable DVRs) TiVo retail DVRs are not disruptive and not even an appealing product for many.

If they had been able to release the Elite and the IP-STP with the Premiere 2 years ago with the current or better software they might have had some chance of increase retail DVR sales then, but that ship has sailed. At this point they are just treading water trying to retain current retail customers while developing the MCO market. I am not even sure what TiVo can do at this point to provide a "disruptive" product in the retail sector

I am sure Apple, Google, and Microsoft would also love to be the one to "disrupt" this market. It will be interesting to see anything actually breaks (disrupts) the existing structure or not. My guess is not and that we will gradually move to more IP delivery primary by/through the existing cable providers. Unfortunately for me I live in a "cable free zone" and only have access to mediocre DSL, OTA, & Satellite, so I see nothing changing for me.


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## Fofer

atmuscarella said:


> I am not even sure what TiVo can do at this point to provide a "disruptive" product in the retail sector


Buy, or partner, with Roku.


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## atmuscarella

Fofer said:


> Buy, or partner, with Roku.


While I like the Roku and do recommend them I don't consider them disruptive. Roku doesn't do anything that lots of other devices do (Roku just does it slightly better, in my opinion, than anything but a HTPC) and at this point are not in anyway threatening the current cable/satellite delivery systems.

Disruptive means significantly destroying a market with new tech, like what digital cameras did to film. So far what we have seen with devices like Roku, TiVo, Boxee Box, Apple TV, Google TV, Microsoft X Box, Sony, etc. is that they supplement cable/satellite not replace it. There is some stress being placed on solid media (DVD/Blu-Ray) by electronic media but that is not specific to any one device or delivery system.

I do believe if TiVo had done streaming media better when the Premiere was release 2 years ago they might have picked up sales at that time. Now people have to many choices and I do not believe DVR sales will change just because of better streaming media features.


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## Thunderclap

Here is what I think Tivo needs to do over the next couple years to stay viable.


Lower subscription price. $20 a month is too steep for a lot of people.
Open App development to third party. Roku succeeds because of this, and if Tivo really wants to be the one-stop shop they seem to want to be then this is the only way to do it effectively. They just need to have some requirements (guidelines) to ensure all apps have a unified Tivo look.
An extender like they are touting for the iPad/iPhone/Android that includes other televisions. Not everyone wants or can afford full blown Tivo's or a $20/monthly subscription. Keep it reasonably priced and they have a good chance of wooing people from their providers boxes.
A lot of people also don't want all these boxes hooked up to their main entertainment system. If they can consolidate what a lot of these other boxes do into Tivo (Roku, Apple TV, Moki, etc.) then they could possibly dominate again.


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## Fofer

Thunderclap said:


> [*]A lot of people also don't want all these boxes hooked up to their main entertainment system. If they can consolidate what a lot of these other boxes do into Tivo (Roku, Apple TV, Moki, etc.) then they could possibly dominate again.


This. It's not just the HDMI management, with all the ports to keep straight, and universal remote control to set up... it's the inconsistent UI. As someone with a Blu Ray, AppleTV, Roku, TiVo, Vudu, and more... I'd really like to see SOMETHING emerge as the "one box." TiVo is far from it.

MHL will certainly hep as it integrates control:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105...g-galaxy-ii-turned-home-entertainment-system/

Roku's upcoming Streaming Stick's got it:
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-33376_1-57351566/rokus-streaming-stick-shrinks-the-roku-box-into-a-dongle/


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## atmuscarella

Fofer said:


> This. It's not just the HDMI management, with all the ports to keep straight, and universal remote control to set up... it's the inconsistent UI. As someone with a Blu Ray, AppleTV, Roku, TiVo, Vudu, and more... I'd really like to see SOMETHING emerge as the "one box." TiVo is far from it.
> 
> MHL will certainly hep as it integrates control:
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105...g-galaxy-ii-turned-home-entertainment-system/
> 
> Roku's upcoming Streaming Stick's got it:
> http://ces.cnet.com/8301-33376_1-57351566/rokus-streaming-stick-shrinks-the-roku-box-into-a-dongle/





Thunderclap said:


> Here is what I think Tivo needs to do over the next couple years to stay viable.
> 
> 
> Lower subscription price. $20 a month is too steep for a lot of people.
> Open App development to third party. Roku succeeds because of this, and if Tivo really wants to be the one-stop shop they seem to want to be then this is the only way to do it effectively. They just need to have some requirements (guidelines) to ensure all apps have a unified Tivo look.
> An extender like they are touting for the iPad/iPhone/Android that includes other televisions. Not everyone wants or can afford full blown Tivo's or a $20/monthly subscription. Keep it reasonably priced and they have a good chance of wooing people from their providers boxes.
> A lot of people also don't want all these boxes hooked up to their main entertainment system. If they can consolidate what a lot of these other boxes do into Tivo (Roku, Apple TV, Moki, etc.) then they could possibly dominate again.


Well there is a "one box" solution it's called a HTPC. It can replace ever other box and be your, cable STB, DVR, Internet access/streaming device, media storage device device, blu-ray player, and gaming console. Many people on this forum could easily build themselves one but it would cost at least $1500 with software and higher end gaming abilities. If you dropped the gaming you should be able to do something in the sub $1000 range depending on how many tuners and how much storage you wanted. Of course you also have to design/build it, provide your own support and deal with individual component warranties.

I find it amusing the some people seem to think TiVo should be able to provide all the same functionality in a superior consumer product for next to nothing.  It isn't going to happen.


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## Fofer

I'm an IT guy, and I have *zero* interest in an HTPC in my living room.


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## atmuscarella

Fofer said:


> I'm an IT guy, and I have *zero* interest in an HTPC in my living room.


Yes but that is what a "one box" solution has to look like. Single function consumer products by their nature can have much less complex hardware and software. The more a product has to do the more complex the hardware and software becomes - effectively the more it becomes like a HTPC. Which is way we don't have a low cost consumer solution yet and there appears to be no one working on one. Gaming consoles maybe getting closer but they are even closer to a HTPC than a TiVo.

My guess is there will never be a consumer 1 box solution until we don't need a DVR or a solid media player. Which would require cable/OTA as we know it to be dead with everything to be available in the cloud on demand and then the one box solution will likely be your TV.


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## Thunderclap

atmuscarella said:


> I find it amusing the some people seem to think TiVo should be able to provide all the same functionality in a superior consumer product for next to nothing.  It isn't going to happen.


Well, considering the Tivo itself advertises itself as "One box that does it all" I think it should. Don't you?

And I'm quite capable of building an HTPC but getting everything integrated into a single UI is virtually impossible. Hence my recommendation that Tivo allow for developers to submit their own apps using certain guidelines to create a unified user experience.


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## Fofer

atmuscarella said:


> then the one box solution will likely be your TV.


agreed. I like this "MHL" initiative that I linked to above. I just want to never have to switch inputs, and have some semblance of a consistent UI.


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## BigJimOutlaw

All good ideas, but not really market disruptors. Think of what Google did to search, or what the iPod did to music, or what Tivo did 13 years ago with the DVR. Those are market disruptors. They were big things that changed those markets. Something big needs to happen to be noticeable above all the noise today -- a market where MSO boxes are "good enough" for 95% of the users.

i.e. As atmuscarella suggested, blowing up the whole shebang and integrating everything into the TV for a consistent UI and one remote is the theoretical Apple approach being rumored about.

Steve Jobs pretty much nailed it when he said people typically get a free subsidized box, or something cheap, and there's just no good chance for innovation beyond that because the go-to-market strategy has no chance of winning.

In any event, I think it's somewhat moot as Tivo has chosen the safer path of MSO partnering. They'll support retail and release some good stuff at their typically conservative pace along the way, but by and large there's not going to be any shakeups from Tivo big enough to turn the retail tide.

Could AllVid change things? I don't know. It's years away from implementation if it ever becomes standard, so that's not a bet Tivo can sit around and wait for. Has anybody noticed that there's not a whole lot of movement going on about AllVid anymore? It kind of seems like Tivo's partnerships could be squelching their insistence (just my guess).


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## bradleys

Thunderclap said:


> Hence my recommendation that Tivo allow for developers to submit their own apps using certain guidelines to create a unified user experience.


I agree with this... I am looking forward to this new SDK and I hope it can add real value for TiVo. One thing, I really want to see apps that focus on Media - not Angry Birds! I have signed up for access - it is time to start dusting off my coding skills.


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## atmuscarella

Thunderclap said:


> Well, considering the Tivo itself advertises itself as "One box that does it all" I think it should. Don't you?
> 
> And I'm quite capable of building an HTPC but getting everything integrated into a single UI is virtually impossible. Hence my recommendation that Tivo allow for developers to submit their own apps using certain guidelines to create a unified user experience.


I wish companies didn't use meaningless marketing terms like "One box that does it all" but they will until it stops working.

I guess the people in TiVo Marketing decided it didn't sound good to say "One Box that does it all except play blu-ray/DVD, provide a high end gaming platform or give you access to most of the Internet"


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## slowbiscuit

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Could AllVid change things? I don't know. It's years away from implementation if it ever becomes standard, so that's not a bet Tivo can sit around and wait for. Has anybody noticed that there's not a whole lot of movement going on about AllVid anymore? It kind of seems like Tivo's partnerships could be squelching their insistence (just my guess).


AllVid really had a chance to disrupt the market because it would've allowed people to easily switch between cable/telco/sat. Which of course is exactly the reason why it's going nowhere, because the MSOs don't want that. They also don't want to give up control over the user experience, and all the ads/PPV/VOD money that goes with it.

People keep saying that it doesn't matter, we'll have a cableCo over the internet soon, but I don't buy it. All you have to do is look at Apple and Microsoft's failure to enable that as proof (they've tried).


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## morac

slowbiscuit said:


> People keep saying that it doesn't matter, we'll have a cableCo over the internet soon, but I don't buy it. All you have to do is look at Apple and Microsoft's failure to enable that as proof (they've tried).


Apple and Microsoft aren't cable companies. Technically though Apple offers most of the shows you can get via cable, you just need to pay per episode.

In any case, TV is already available over the Internet, but the downside is you have to subscribe to the Cable TV local to you. So for example, I can watch Comcast's On Demand service anywhere there's Internet access, but only because I subscribe to it. Many cable channels are doing something similar so you can get HBO, TBS, etc online if you subscribe to a participating cable company.

I also recall a story from a few months ago that Verizon (I think it was Verizon) said was going to offer a version of their On Demand library to any Internet user. I can't find that though.


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## nexus99

I have a Tivo and a HTPC in my living room. But no blu-ray player. The Tivo does what it does very well... but I have lots of ripped content (kids movies especially) that we access often. A Tivo extender for the bedroom would be very welcome!


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## slowbiscuit

morac said:


> Apple and Microsoft aren't cable companies. Technically though Apple offers most of the shows you can get via cable, you just need to pay per episode.


I was talking about live streaming just like you get with cable, not on demand. Mostly relevant for news and sports, of course. But even if you're only talking on demand, there's still a lot of stuff missing from current broadcast shows if you want to watch them when they're aired.


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## jmpage2

I can see that some of the discussion has gone off of the rails, but I personally see this as a move by TiVo to simply try to stem the bleeding. 

They are losing subs every year and lack of a whole home solution is now one of the key TiVo weaknesses. Don't believe me? Go into a Best Buy on the weekend and let the DirecTV guys hit you over the head with the fact that they offer a whole home solution and you don't have to have multiple subscriptions for each room that has a box.

While most of us here love TiVo and will pay extra for it, the typical consumer won't, and fewer and fewer are getting a TiVo when the cable company box is "cheaper" from a short term prospective and "good enough" from a user perspective.

For me, this is a dead ringer. I already have a TiVo Elite. Give me a few of these to equip other rooms in the home and that becomes the only DVR I need. If it can get live TV from the Elite and doesn't need a cablecard it's that much better.

TiVo just needs to stave off complete retail defeat until they do whatever it is they are trying to do... convert to an MSO model, etc.

I don't think they even have to make that big of a profit on these. They just need to keep TiVo from being a "dead" product at the retail level.


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## CybrFyre

The amusing thing is, Tivo has a golden opportunity. TIvo is the only set top box (well, technically not the only) that has a *tuner* and does *DVR* and does DVR well.

The rest of the boxes, apple tv, google tv, roku, etc, lack the tuner bit. Those boxes do a good, a great job, allowing you to stream or watch video from other sources -- home or net -- and allow one to add apps for the newest source. And the next time there is a new audio video service, one just installs the app and preseto. What these boxes lack is the tuner and dvr functionality.

People still want to record and watch tv. Anywhere in their house. Tivo does that. The others don't. So, Tivo has a golden opportunity.

What tivo lacks is the ability for the end consumer to just add the new Netflix-competitor app or watch espn3.com live. There is no live internet video and if Tivo hasn't already built in an app, there's just a clunky interface for adding RSS feeds. Too complicated for the average consumer.

People want live tv. Recording live tv. Easy to use. On any device. First. With a second helping of internet audio and video.


----------



## nrc

atmuscarella said:


> Yes but that is what a "one box" solution has to look like.


I think you're being pedantic about exactly what a "one box" solution means. Will a HTPC play my Laser Discs or VHS tapes? Will it make my toast?

When TiVo refers to a one box solution they obviously mean that it can provide all the content that most people want or need. If you want to use an specific media type that's a different issue.


----------



## Fofer

nrc said:


> When TiVo refers to a one box solution they obviously mean that it can provide all the content that most people want or need.


...in a TV-friendly interface that can be navigated with a regular remote control and not a computer keyboard.


----------



## atmuscarella

nrc said:


> I think you're being pedantic about exactly what a "one box" solution means. Will a HTPC play my Laser Discs or VHS tapes? Will it make my toast?
> 
> When TiVo refers to a one box solution they obviously mean that it can provide all the content that most people want or need. If you want to use an specific media type that's a different issue.


I have no idea what TiVo means when they say "one box", my guess is neither does TiVo - they just use it to sell more boxes and hope the person reading it assumes it means whatever that person wants it to mean.

But as I noted in post 99 I believe the term is meaningless or if you prefer can mean anything the person using it wants it to mean.

However in the post you quoted I was using it in the context of what Fofer had indicated he wanted to mean - which pretty much lined up with a HTPC.


----------



## NatasNJ

Can someone in "idiot" terms explain what the Tivo Transcoder in theory offer Tivo users?
Same goes for IP-based set top Box. 

Is is just a quick method for "tivo to pc" type transfers wirelessly to your laptop or ipad?


----------



## turbobozz

NatasNJ said:


> Can someone in "idiot" terms explain what the Tivo Transcoder in theory offer Tivo users?
> Same goes for IP-based set top Box.
> 
> Is is just a quick method for "tivo to pc" type transfers wirelessly to your laptop or ipad?


In a very basic generalization....

transcoder == wirelessly stream tivo to phone/tablet 
IP STB == stream tivo to another TV


----------



## NatasNJ

turbobozz said:


> In a very basic generalization....
> 
> transcoder == wirelessly stream tivo to phone/tablet
> IP STB == stream tivo to another TV


Thanks..

My only question is in regards to the "transcoder" would you have to be NEAR the TIvo box or could you do it over some 4G or WIFI connection? (like Slingbox)
And is it streaming or downloading. (meaning can I pick 4 shows on Tivo, have them wirelessly transfer to my ipad then watch while not connected to any signal on the ipad?)


----------



## Fofer

The current scuttlebutt is that the transcoder will only work inside the home. I hope that changes.

If that transcoder can stream outside the LAN (perhaps even with some VPN/SSH tunneling required) than I am *very* interested. If it works only inside the home, I am much, much less interested. I mean, I'd pay no more than a one-time fee of $99 for the box... if that. It just has very limited appeal to me if it only works at home.

One of the benefits of transcoding is that the file size is smaller and therefore should be remote streamable.

If Slingbox can do it, why couldn't TiVo?


----------



## bradleys

NatasNJ said:


> Thanks..
> 
> My only question is in regards to the "transcoder" would you have to be NEAR the TIvo box or could you do it over some 4G or WIFI connection? (like Slingbox)
> And is it streaming or downloading. (meaning can I pick 4 shows on Tivo, have them wirelessly transfer to my ipad then watch while not connected to any signal on the ipad?)


We have been told that the transcoder will allow two options.

1) local network streaming to your device and,
2) sidloading - copy movie to your device for viewing later.

I also read an article on one of the blogs that spoke of streaming outside the network. If I remember correctly TiVo said it was possible with the hardware as designed and "may" be implemented in the future - nice, but I wouldn't count on it personally.

I still bet there are multiple licensing hurdles to jump over... But I suspect the biggest issue is that unless they can guarantee "netflix" level of connection quality, they know they would get massacred by the masses.


----------



## Fofer

bradleys said:


> We have been told that the transcoder will allow two options.
> 
> 1) local network streaming to your device and,
> 2) sidloading - copy movie to your device for viewing later.


So even the sideloading needs to be done _while at home?_

If so, yuck, that bites. If not, I could live with that. I just don't want to have to "prepare ahead of time" by copying videos I may want to watch later. I want them on demand. That's the whole point of it for me, to make it convenient and that I don't have to think about it.

I'm still holding on to home that tinkerer types will figure out a way to stream remotely, like by setting up some kind of simple VPN connection. Is it TiVo's conflicts of interest that prevent them from just doing it the way Slingbox does it?


----------



## NatasNJ

Fofer said:


> So even the sideloading needs to be done _while at home?_
> 
> If so, yuck, that bites. If not, I could live with that. I just don't want to have to "prepare ahead of time" by copying videos I may want to watch later. I want them on demand. That's the whole point of it for me, to make it convenient and that I don't have to think about it.
> 
> I'm still holding on to home that tinkerer types will figure out a way to stream remotely, like by setting up some kind of simple VPN connection. Is it TiVo's conflicts of interest that prevent them from just doing it the way Slingbox does it?


I am lost in your goal Fofer. Why wouldn't you want Slingbox? Sounds like that is what you want, on demand access to your Tivo. Doesn't slingbox provide that? Or do you want the sidloading capability remotely? Which is a little of both the Tivo & Slingbox...


----------



## Fofer

The iPad app is great. I want that UI with access to playback my shows too. I don't care too much about sideloading. I'm fine streaming so long as I have internet... to my laptop or iPad.

I find Slingbox, with the IR blaster, and "virtual remote" to be really, really clunky and often times unreliable.

TiVo has an opportunity here to offer placeshifting in a far more elegant, integrated way.


----------



## bradleys

I agree with you Fofer...

But as I said in my previous post (I was editing it while you were responding)



> ...I suspect the biggest issue is that unless they can guarantee "netflix" level of connection quality, they know they would get massacred by the masses.


----------



## atmuscarella

NatasNJ said:


> Thanks..
> 
> My only question is in regards to the "transcoder" would you have to be NEAR the TIvo box or could you do it over some 4G or WIFI connection? (like Slingbox)
> And is it streaming or downloading. (meaning can I pick 4 shows on Tivo, have them wirelessly transfer to my ipad then watch while not connected to any signal on the ipad?)


Try this article explains it pretty well:

TiVo To Ship Place Shifting Transcoder Box This Year​


----------



## Fofer

Good article, thanks for that.

I am guessing that streaming (inside the home) will work just like the current Multi-Room-Streaming between Premieres. Which means, nothing is precluded from streaming, regardless of CCC flag. 

What about side-loading a transcoded copy, though, for later"offline" viewing? Will that be restricted just to stuff that doesn't have the CCC flag set? If so, that's another non-starter in my book.

I really want to love this transcoder box...


----------



## bradleys

Fofer said:


> Good article, thanks for that.
> 
> I am guessing that streaming (inside the home) will work just like the current Multi-Room-Streaming between Premieres. Which means, nothing is precluded from streaming, regardless of CCC flag.
> 
> What about side-loading a transcoded copy, though, for later"offline" viewing? Will that be restricted just to stuff that doesn't have the CCC flag set? If so, that's another non-starter in my book.
> 
> I really want to love this transcoder box...


My guess is that the side-loading is going to be hobbled by the CCC flag as well, unless there is some language in the legislation that exempts downrezzed content.


----------



## Fofer

Well then that's another reason why I'd really want streaming over the Internet. My upstream can handle it. If the files are still too big then they should transcode better. Slingbox adjusts itself based on your connection speed, I believe.


----------



## jmpage2

Fofer said:


> The iPad app is great. I want that UI with access to playback my shows too. I don't care too much about sideloading. I'm fine streaming so long as I have internet... to my laptop or iPad.
> 
> I find Slingbox, with the IR blaster, and "virtual remote" to be really, really clunky and often times unreliable.
> 
> TiVo has an opportunity here to offer placeshifting in a far more elegant, integrated way.


The clunkiness and delays you are describing are going to be unavoidable with anyone's box, due to limited internet bandwidth and the round trip time of doing things like interacting with the UI.

That's kind of the entire point of side-load of content... if you're going out of town, taking a flight, etc, you can load a bunch of shows in a relatively short amount of time and have very good quality with full controls on your portable device.

If you want PLACE shifting outside of the home, the Slingbox is the only game in town.


----------



## Fofer

No, you're missing my point. The existing iPad app removes any any all "round trip time of doing things like interacting with the UI." The UI already in place is an alternative to TiVo's own native one. The only thing missing is content playback on the tablet's screen.










Slingbox, on the other hand, has a clunky IR blaster and "virtual remote," both of which introduce lags, delay and unreliability. Navigating around feels like you're tapping through three layers of UI, while standing in molasses. Not to mention it's transcoding component video output as you play. I have to imagine TiVo's will look better as it transcodes the actual digital file (in faster than real-time.)

I understand that Slingbox is one of the "only games in town" (the Vulkano Monsoon products being another) but my point is, TiVo would be much stronger, more integrated and elegant entrant, if they managed to do this right.


----------



## classicsat

NatasNJ said:


> Thanks..
> 
> My only question is in regards to the "transcoder" would you have to be NEAR the TIvo box or could you do it over some 4G or WIFI connection? (like Slingbox)


The transcoder box connects anywhere on the same segment of network your TiVo does, ideally through the same network switch.


----------



## Fofer

Right but his question was, once installed, would it let you stream the TiVo's content over the internet. We've since learned that, at least at the product's introduction, the "official" answer to that is looking like a NO.

Whether or not we can work around that with VPN software, opening ports in Firewalls, etc. is another question entirely.


----------



## bradleys

I will probably place the transcoder box right next to my router. Out of the way and out of sight...

I agree with fofer, it would be nice if TiVo implements external streaming. I probably wouldn't use it over 3G, but I definitely could see using at wifi hot spots.

But I dont want them to implement it if the quality isn't going to be there. We can see hw dealing with bad network setups is a nightmare now - imagine if they try to implement this!


----------



## Fofer

Slingbox tries to make it easy, and I'd even go so far as to say they go _too_ far (with the Sling ID directory, etc.)

All I want is for the transcoded files to be small enough that they COULD be streamed over a reasonably fast consumer-based broadband upstream. (Folks with really slow upstreams would be precluded from this feature, I understand.) And I'd want for TiVo to not actively BLOCK our ability to stream externally.

In other words, if my upstream can handle it, and I am willing to manage my network to allow my iPad (or laptop) to access my TiVo (and this transcoder) from the road then I want it to be feasible.

All TiVo has to do is handle the transcoding efficiently and intelligently, and not do anything to BLOCK standard networking schemes, and my plan should work out just fine.

We'll see if TiVo has other ideas.


----------



## bradleys

I hear you, but I suspect if they allow external streaming they will want to integrate more control.

Netflix sends a signal to determine network speed and adjusts the quality appropriately. I am sure TiVo would need to do something similar.

At least with the solution they are offering - it will have a definite wired connection on the LAN. I think we will see it eventually...

I want this device so I can side load videos from my video library. I have tried several solutions and nothing works consistently well. I was actually looking at purpose building my media server to robust enough to handle transcoding duties... This device makes me very happy!


----------



## MichaelK

Fofer said:


> ... Will that be restricted just to stuff that doesn't have the CCC flag set? If so, that's another non-starter in my book.
> 
> I really want to love this transcoder box...


the dfast license agreement
(which I believe TiVo MUST abide by to have cablelabs approval to keep cablecards)
says that YES- basically ANY digital output must be copy protected. So fire-wire, HDMI, etc all have to have some sort of control.

BUT it says you CAN use DTCP-IP. Which MAY allow copies that can be moved around. I'm not really sure of what DTCP-IP allows- but it sounds like maybe it does something like Google Video on android.

On google video - if you rent a movie you can stream it to any device OR you can copy one version to a device for offline viewing. Once you copy the one copy of a video to your phone or tablet you can no longer stream or copy it to another device until the copy on the first device is deleted (and checks back in with the google mothership to say "hey I've been destroyed") .

the agreement can be found here:
http://www.cablelabs.com/opencable/udcp/downloads/DFAST_Tech_License.pdf
the whole front section is all the legaleeze, the attachments are where the fun stuff is- defines the CCI bits and what they mean, how robust things can be, what copy protection is permitted, etc, etc.

(interestingly- just popped in to my mind*if i recall*- years ago- when the broadcast flag was a possibility TiVo got approval from the FCC for a content protection system they called "TiVoGuard"- that's not on the approved list from cablelabs but cablelabs is required to approve things in a timely manner unless there's a good reason. Any denials I think can be appealed to the FCC. Since they approved TiVoGuard it would seem to reason the FCC would tell cablelabs to approve it to. Might be pointless now that there is DTCP-IP but who knows....)


----------



## mattack

Fofer said:


> So even the sideloading needs to be done _while at home?_
> 
> If so, yuck, that bites. If not, I could live with that.


I would expect it would require that. I am surprised anybody thought differently. The idea is that "do it at home and it's really fast, then you can use it without [reliable/fast] network". I could see doing that to get stuff to watch at the gym on an iPad.


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, that's better than nothing at all, of course. But if I'm traveling for a week or two and I'd like to stream a recording that occurred while I'm traveling... well, the ability to sideload ahead of time doesn't help.

I'd like to stream (and/or sideload) on demand. Having to "plan ahead" and only get stuff that recorded before I left for my trip just isn't as elegant nor convenient as it COULD be.


----------



## rainwater

bradleys said:


> But I dont want them to implement it if the quality isn't going to be there. We can see hw dealing with bad network setups is a nightmare now - imagine if they try to implement this!


The whole point of this transcoding box is it can adjust video quality in realtime. I think Slingbox for the most part has solved network issues with their setup routines. So, I don't think that is a major issue as in years past especially since this box is hard wired to a router in 99% of cases.


----------



## jcthorne

Fofer said:


> Yeah, that's better than nothing at all, of course. But if I'm traveling for a week or two and I'd like to stream a recording that occurred while I'm traveling... well, the ability to sideload ahead of time doesn't help.
> 
> I'd like to stream (and/or sideload) on demand. Having to "plan ahead" and only get stuff that recorded before I left for my trip just isn't as elegant nor convenient as it COULD be.


And likely WILL be for content that your provider ALLOWS you to stream elsewhere. The CCI bit thing is just that, permission to use the program material the way the content provider wants. Its very likely that any CCI byte protected material will not stream outside your local home network nor side load anywhere, just like TTG now.


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## Fofer

Pffft. It's no wonder so many people pirate.


----------



## shwru980r

turbobozz said:


> In a very basic generalization....
> 
> transcoder == wirelessly stream tivo to phone/tablet
> IP STB == stream tivo to another TV


Why don't they just build both into one new box? I think multiple boxes will be confusing to many customers.


----------



## vurbano

Fofer said:


> ...in a TV-friendly interface that can be navigated with a regular remote control and not a computer keyboard.


that doesnt reboot during the superbowl to install a microsoft update. lol


----------



## morac

jcthorne said:


> And likely WILL be for content that your provider ALLOWS you to stream elsewhere. The CCI bit thing is just that, permission to use the program material the way the *cable* provider wants. Its very likely that any CCI byte protected material will not stream outside your local home network nor side load anywhere, just like TTG now.


Fixed that for you. While it was intended to allow content providers to copy protect their content, it's morphed into a way for cable companies to restrict content. Cable companies are now the ones restricting content, which explains why things like HBO2Go are available on Roku for some cable providers and not others as well as why the CCI bit is set differently by different cable companies for the same channel.


----------



## MichaelK

shwru980r said:


> Why don't they just build both into one new box? I think multiple boxes will be confusing to many customers.


I dont think that's needed.

The transcoder box is an accessory sort of thing in my mind to allow you to move content to portable devices- NOT to watch on TV. Tivo doesn't bundle bluetooth remotes with their wireless N usb adapter just to keep people from getting confused. They dont make you buy another premiere in order to by tivo desktop software. The Transcoder box is basically something of a replacement for TiVo Desktop software.

The IP box will likely be some sort of CHEAPER set top box so you don't need to pay full freight (whatever that is) for another premiere to have TiVo on an additional TV. The IP STB doesn't Stream- it will receive streaming from another TiVO box.

I'm not sure at all how people see them being related. Both have somethign to do with streaming but you can use one without the other for sure and I think many people will buy one or the other.


----------



## MichaelK

Fofer said:


> Yeah, that's better than nothing at all, of course. But if I'm traveling for a week or two and I'd like to stream a recording that occurred while I'm traveling... well, the ability to sideload ahead of time doesn't help.
> 
> I'd like to stream (and/or sideload) on demand. Having to "plan ahead" and only get stuff that recorded before I left for my trip just isn't as elegant nor convenient as it COULD be.


I know it's probably not exactly what you want, but if you are looking for a work around then you could leave a PC on at home and then just remote in and have the transcoding box convert the file and put it on the PC. then use something like dropbox or whatever to transfer the file from the PC to the portable device. (of course you could do all that with Tivo Desktop today...)

We'll really just have to see, to figure out if there are any "cleaner" work around's to remotely transcode things. I'd make a WAG that the transcoder box will have some sort of a browser interface for telling it what to do while at home. You could set up your router with port forwarding to access that from outside your home (with all the secuirty issues that could bring)- if that's the case the question would be could you tell the transcoder to "put" the file someplace without stopping on a local PC.


----------



## rainwater

MichaelK said:


> The transcoder box is an accessory sort of thing in my mind to allow you to move content to portable devices- NOT to watch on TV. Tivo doesn't bundle bluetooth remotes with their wireless N usb adapter just to keep people from getting confused. They dont make you buy another premiere in order to by tivo desktop software. The Transcoder box is basically something of a replacement for TiVo Desktop software.


TiVo stated the cost of the transcoder box is why it isn't included. They did infer it could be included when the costs come down so you could possibly see it in the next generation TiVos.


----------



## jcthorne

morac said:


> Fixed that for you. While it was intended to allow content providers to copy protect their content, it's morphed into a way for cable companies to restrict content. Cable companies are now the ones restricting content, which explains why things like HBO2Go are available on Roku for some cable providers and not others as well as why the CCI bit is set differently by different cable companies for the same channel.


You are right of course, the unfortunate thing is that today, many of the cable comanies ARE the content owners.

Either way, Tivo can only deliver what the program material is authorized for. They cannot help you circumvent the DRM.


----------



## atmuscarella

shwru980r said:


> Why don't they just build both into one new box? I think multiple boxes will be confusing to many customers.


The simple answer is $$s. While some people may want the functionality of both of these boxes the increased cost of a one box solution would likely put off sales to people who only wanted one of the functions.

I am also guessing there might be some complexity issues. The transcoder box for phone/tablets is really a hidden, install it and forget it box that they want hard wired to your network. The IP-STB needs of course to be connected to the TV you are using it with and will likely be able to be wireless like a TiVo DVR.

If you had a combined transcoder/IP-STB think about how a wireless signal might have to work starting at your DVR: 

Stream is broadcast wirelessly from DVR to router
Stream is broadcast wirelessly from router to combined transcoder/IP-STP
Stream is transcoded by combined transcoder/IP-STP and then Stream is broadcast wirelessly back to router
Stream is broadcast wirelessly from router to your phone/tablet.
Somehow I don't think TiVo would want to deal with the above.


----------



## morac

atmuscarella said:


> The IP-STB needs of course to be connected to the TV you are using it with and will likely be able to be wireless like a TiVo DVR.


I doubt the IP-STB will support wireless as TiVo has been pushing that a wired connection is needed for streaming. My guess is that the box will have as few ports as possible. Likely only a network and HDMI port (maybe composite video and RCA audio). It would be nice if it supported MoCA, but since there's no need for a coax in port, that might be excluded as well to save on cost.


----------



## bradleys

MoCa would be nice and I am betting it will have it on board...

To work TiVo is going to push for a hard wired connection. My bet is that wifi will not be built in and it will *NOT* have an available USB for a wifi dongle. They will build the option out of the device!

I predict on board moCa plus an Ethernet port for flexible hardwired connection options.


----------



## wmcbrine

It'll be weird if it has a coax connector and no tuner, though. I foresee a lot of support calls about that.


----------



## bradleys

wmcbrine said:


> It'll be weird if it has a coax connector and no tuner, though. I foresee a lot of support calls about that.


Maybe... But i still think it still makes the most sense, especially when bundled with an Elite.

I also think that in the next couple of years MoCa is going to become more seamlessly integrated by cable providers as it is with Fios and a more intuitive option as a result...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I'm placing my money on it having the works -- USB, ethernet and MoCa. Wireless streaming is currently supported in retail products so I don't think that'll change (but not built-in). And since it is mostly designed with MSO whole-home solutions in mind, I'm betting on the Moca being there too.

This is new territory for Tivo; it's fun to speculate about the possibilities. I want one of these darn things. 

Taking a step back -- What does everyone envision the IP box to look like? Small, cheap, and Roku-esque with a small iOS-like interface, or more like a Preview with full-blown Tivo software, sans tuner and cc hardware? That basic design philosophy probably dictates what kind of networking it has. I'm kind of leaning towards it being the latter, even though I'd prefer the former. But either way I'm in for one.


----------



## bradleys

Actually, wifi is not a supported connection method for Premier to Premier streaming.

From the TiVo site



> Connect your TiVo Premiere Elite to the Internet using one of these methods:
> 
> *Option 1 GOOD - Wireless network*
> If you don't have a wired Ethernet connection that can reach your DVR and you _won't be streaming content between two TiVo Premieres_.
> 
> Plug a Wireless G adapter into the USB port or a Wireless N adapter into the Ethernet port
> 
> *Option 2 BETTER - MoCA network*
> If you do not have a wired Ethernet connection that can reach your DVR, you can use the built-in MoCA capability to connect the DVR to your router
> 
> Plug a coax cable into the MoCA port
> 
> *Option 3 BEST - Wired Ethernet network*
> If your wired Ethernet connection can reach your DVR
> 
> Plug the included Ethernet cable into the Ethernet port


This is why I personally think only option 2 and 3 will be available. Since the purpose of this device is MRS streaming, I suspect the device will not directly support a wireless connection.



> Taking a step back -- What does everyone envision the IP box to look like? Small, cheap, and Roku-esque with a small iOS-like interface, or more like a Preview with full-blown Tivo software, sans tuner and cc hardware?


My guess is that it will look similar to the Preview - possibly a little smaller as it will have no tuner and no cable card support. I suspect it will have a full blown OS similar to a regular TiVo. I hope to see very little difference...

Interesting - looking at the Roku 2, they have really limited your connection options... You have either HDMI or composite. Gone is both component and digital audio options.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Huh, for some reason I thought wireless streaming worked. Harumph. In that case, if it has USB it will be for accessory support other than wireless G. A slide remote can still be useful.

I'll still go with ethernet and moca being there.


----------



## morac

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Huh, for some reason I thought wireless streaming worked. Harumph. In that case, if it has USB it will be for accessory support other than wireless G. A slide remote can still be useful.
> 
> I'll still go with ethernet and moca being there.


Wireless streaming can work, but TiVo doesn't recommend it because it's a lot more likely to have problems than a wired connection.


----------



## steve614

I would be willing to bet wireless would work for some people, but I think TiVo is avoiding the hassle of having to support it with their disclaimer.


----------



## bradleys

People have reportedly gotten streaming to work wirelessly Premier to Premier with mixed results. Some report choppiness and studders. 

So it can work, but TiVo is not going to support wifi for pier to pier streaming. And my point is that since this new ip box is primarily a MRS device, they most likely will not make it easy to setup for wifi usage.

My bet is that MoCa and Ethernet are going to be the preferred methods and an easy wifi option will not be designed into this box.


----------



## MichaelK

rainwater said:


> TiVo stated the cost of the transcoder box is why it isn't included. They did infer it could be included when the costs come down so you could possibly see it in the next generation TiVos.


(although it wasn't my original point)

there's still not a 2 dollar bluetooth chip in the elite, in the past they skimped on memory, as people complain all the time there's not a 802.11n chip, they removed the oled clock...

I dont see them adding any 'accessory' chips anytime soon unless broadcom includes them for free on the die with the cpu.

Just my 2 cents- I've been wrong plenty of times before-


----------



## rainwater

MichaelK said:


> I dont see them adding any 'accessory' chips anytime soon unless broadcom includes them for free on the die with the cpu.


This is almost certainly going to happen in the next 2 years. Whether it happens in time for TiVo's next gen hardware is really the question.


----------



## MichaelK

rainwater said:


> This is almost certainly going to happen in the next 2 years. Whether it happens in time for TiVo's next gen hardware is really the question.


"for Free"- as in every chip will come with it? Or would tivo need to buy an upgraded chip?

I dont see tivo buying an upgraded chip at the time. Of course the transcoder box could wind up being a huge seller and a big feature and then it makes sense. But they didn't even add a 2 dollar bluetooth chip in the elite. They added Moca- presumably because their cable partners specifically asked for it. No extra memory in the elite either. So unless someone asks for it I dont see them adding it if it costs them more.

And to be clear I dont begrudge them. It just seems clear they think their business model isn't really to sell a high end dvr but rather a mass market dvr that's as cheap as they can get it. So leaving out whatever they can to drive cost as low as they can seems to be where they feel they need to be. No clock, no wireless N, no extra memory to speed things up, no bluetooth on the motherboard, no glow remotes included, etc. Even if it's only a few tens of cents when you add a few things together its several dollars a box and before you know it it adds up to millions of more dollars in hardware losses.


----------



## aaronwt

bradleys said:


> MoCa would be nice and I am betting it will have it on board...
> 
> To work TiVo is going to push for a hard wired connection. My bet is that wifi will not be built in and it will *NOT* have an available USB for a wifi dongle. They will build the option out of the device!
> 
> I predict on board moCa plus an Ethernet port for flexible hardwired connection options.


why would it need MoCA? It's going to have to connect to the network somewhere anyway, so all it really would need is ethernet. Since any MoCA setup is going to have an ethernet portion somewhere on the network. Having MoCA would just inflate the cost.

I guess it depends on what they want the price of the box to be. To get the price lower, i would think they would need to eliminate as many connections as possible.


----------



## rainwater

aaronwt said:


> why would it need MoCA? It's going to have to connect to the network somewhere anyway, so all it really would need is ethernet.


If they are planning on selling these as package deals with Elite boxes, MoCA would make a lot of sense.


----------



## Aero 1

aaronwt said:


> why would it need MoCA? It's going to have to connect to the network somewhere anyway, so all it really would need is ethernet. Since any MoCA setup is going to have an ethernet portion somewhere on the network. Having MoCA would just inflate the cost.
> 
> I guess it depends on what they want the price of the box to be. To get the price lower, i would think they would need to eliminate as many connections as possible.


because not everyone has Ethernet drops all over the house like you.


----------



## bradleys

Aero 1 said:


> because not everyone has Ethernet drops all over the house like you.


Exactly - It is very common for people to have several coax drops at common TV locations. Even homes built 20 to 30 years ago have multiple COAX drops in the homes. Not so for ethernet drops...

Since wifi is not suported for streaming, having MoCa on board provides the flexibility needed for this device.


----------



## Fofer

If it has MoCa and not Ethernet, I'm not interested. 

If it has Ethernet and is priced at less than $250 (total, no monthly fees) then I'm most likely in for (at least) one.


----------



## Dan203

I don't think it will be MOCA. The Preview things they're selling to the MSOs will probably be MOCA, since they have an internal tuner and require a coax connection anyway. However the consumer "Preview" is suppose to be just a dumb terminal that allows you to stream from the main box and maybe setup some recordings. And the transcoder is even simpler with no direct UI at all, only an interface the iOS/Android app can connect to.

If either one has built in MOCA I'll be really surprised. The only reason the Elite has MOCA is because it is based on the same design as the commercial version, and it was probably cheaper to leave it in the design then to come up with a new box that didn't have it. The transcoder will be retail only, and the "Preview" box will be different for retail vs the one they sell to MSOs.

Dan


----------



## morac

Having MoCA in the transcoder box makes little sense. The ip set top box on the other hand could actually use it. My guess though is that the ip set top box will NOT support MoCA natively, but TiVo will sell an (overpriced) MoCA bridge for it.


----------



## Fofer

Dan203 said:


> And the transcoder is even simpler with no direct UI at all, only an interface the iOS/Android app can connect to.


No Mac/PC client app? Even though it's just streaming? That'd be a shame.


----------



## aindik

Anyone know if the transcoder will work with a TiVoHD, or if it's Premiere only?


----------



## Fofer

I'd bet dollars to donuts it's Premiere only. Just a strong hunch...


----------



## aindik

Fofer said:


> I'd bet dollars to donuts it's Premiere only. Just a strong hunch...


That's crap. It also doesn't really make sense. Every TiVo since the Series 3 is recording a digital stream from the cable company head end. IOW, but for DRM, the files it writes to the drive are exactly the same on a Series 3, a TiVoHD, or a Premiere. It's all the same coming through the cable, and the TiVo box isn't doing any encoding.


----------



## morac

aindik said:


> That's crap. It also doesn't really make sense. Every TiVo since the Series 3 is recording a digital stream from the cable company head end. IOW, but for DRM, the files it writes to the drive are exactly the same on a Series 3, a TiVoHD, or a Premiere. It's all the same coming through the cable, and the TiVo box isn't doing any encoding.


Only the Series 4 boxes were updated to support streaming. The Series 3 boxes are basically in a planned obsolescence stage so they aren't getting updates. No one knows if the Series 3 boxes could support streaming if TiVo decided to update them (cpu and network isn't as fast as the Premiere and they have less RAM), but since TiVo isn't updating them, the question is moot.


----------



## Fofer

aindik said:


> That's crap. It also doesn't really make sense. Every TiVo since the Series 3 is recording a digital stream from the cable company head end. IOW, but for DRM, the files it writes to the drive are exactly the same on a Series 3, a TiVoHD, or a Premiere. It's all the same coming through the cable, and the TiVo box isn't doing any encoding.


Right. I hear ya. But TiVo doesn't appear to be doing any maintenance or updating of anything older than the Premiere. Even on the iOS app, support for S3/THD was an afterthought, and largely limited, when compared to its Premiere support. Annoyed me too, after all I'd spent.

On the older platform, you get access to the app's guide, scheduling, remote control, search, and explore features, but you can't start playback, view info about what's currently being played, see which shows are recorded, or manage recordings. And since the UI for that is probably how streaming content is going to be initiated, the older platform will be precluded.

That's my hunch, at least. And that's why I sidegraded from my S3 to a Premiere last year, after I found a good deal, and didn't look back. Held tight for awhile because it's still in need of some very basic improvements and HDUI completion. And yet, I didn't want to be precluded from this cool new stuff... and TiVo seems to be on a very distinct path. And when precious services have compatibility issues (ie: Rhapsody) TiVo's just throwing their hands up and giving up.

TiVo hates non-Premiere people, it seems.


----------



## magnus

So, is this IP-STB a box for Uverse or something like that? The transcoder sounds cool if it would transcode to a Roku. I could see using that.


----------



## aaronwt

Aero 1 said:


> because not everyone has Ethernet drops all over the house like you.





bradleys said:


> Exactly - It is very common for people to have several coax drops at common TV locations. Even homes built 20 to 30 years ago have multiple COAX drops in the homes. Not so for ethernet drops...
> 
> Since wifi is not suported for streaming, having MoCa on board provides the flexibility needed for this device.


You don't need ethernet all over the house. Any house with MoCA will have Ethernet somewhere. This box does not need to be out in the open. You just put it next to your router that has Ethernet ports. Any network that has MoCA will have an Ethernet segment somewhere in the house. That is where you would hook this device to. MoCA is just redundant for a device like this. While it could be included, including it would just needlessly inflate the cost.
Now it would be different if it had a tuner and a video output. Then MoCA would make sense. But this is a box that is only accessed from the network.


----------



## aindik

morac said:


> Only the Series 4 boxes were updated to support streaming. The Series 3 boxes are basically in a planned obsolescence stage so they aren't getting updates. No one knows if the Series 3 boxes could support streaming if TiVo decided to update them (cpu and network isn't as fast as the Premiere and they have less RAM), but since TiVo isn't updating them, the question is moot.


Oh well. I'm not spending $700 to upgrade to a Premiere XL (and I'm not going to do any of the monthly options either because I'll definitely own any DVR for longer than 20 months). I guess I'll continue to transcode the old fashioned way.

I don't really care about in-house streaming anyway. It was "sideloading" I wanted.


----------



## Aero 1

aaronwt said:


> You don't need ethernet all over the house. Any house with MoCA will have Ethernet somewhere. This box does not need to be out in the open. You just put it next to your router that has Ethernet ports. Any network that has MoCA will have an Ethernet segment somewhere in the house. That is where you would hook this device to. MoCA is just redundant for a device like this. While it could be included, including it would just needlessly inflate the cost.
> Now it would be different if it had a tuner and a video output. Then MoCA would make sense. But this is a box that is only accessed from the network.


what? what are you saying? if i dont have an ethernet port in my kitchen tv, this preview would only be hooked via coax. because this thing is moca, the coax would deliver the tv signal and network traffic. all i would have to get is a moca bridge and ethernet it to the router, or have a moca enabled router. or if you have an elite, the elite will be the bridge for the network. if the preview has no moca capabilities, how do you expect it to get network traffic?

what you describe makes no sense. or are you talking about the transcorder?


----------



## bradleys

Ok, we are talking about two different things.

The transcoder box provides streaming and side loading to a tablet device. It will have Ethernet only and most likely sit near your router.

The IP Set Top Box acts as a TiVo extender and allows you to stream from a Premier to another TV in your home. It is connected to both your network and the TV. It does not have a cable Card and presumably no service fee. It borrows a free tuner from a parent Premier to stream live TV and will also stream saved content via MRS. In my opinion it will have both an Ethernet port and on board MoCa bridge - just like the Elite. I do not believe you will be able to connect the device wirelessly.

And to answer your question - these devices will only work with Series 4 TiVo's*. This helps answer the question "why should I upgrade"

*(I am hoping that eventually both devices will be able to access my pytivo shares via MRS. If that is true, then they should have some capabilities without a TiVo Premier on the account - but this only wishful thinking on my part.)


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> I don't think it will be MOCA. The Preview things they're selling to the MSOs will probably be MOCA, since they have an internal tuner and require a coax connection anyway. However the consumer "Preview" is suppose to be just a dumb terminal that allows you to stream from the main box and maybe setup some recordings. And the transcoder is even simpler with no direct UI at all, only an interface the iOS/Android app can connect to.
> 
> If either one has built in MOCA I'll be really surprised. The only reason the Elite has MOCA is because it is based on the same design as the commercial version, and it was probably cheaper to leave it in the design then to come up with a new box that didn't have it. The transcoder will be retail only, and the "Preview" box will be different for retail vs the one they sell to MSOs.
> 
> Dan


Just to be clear, Previews are out now, have been for a little while, and they do use Moca.

Don't confuse the Preview with the IP box. The IP box is not a consumer Preview, because the IP box is *also* designed for and will be available to MSO's. We're just lucky to be able to get in on it as well.

And as such, while they could keep the cost low on the IP box by making it ethernet-only (thus requiring an external moca adapter), Tivo's MSO focus for this product (and likely most products from here on out) is what makes me believe the IP box will have Moca as well. But obviously, we'll find out soon.

Separately, we know for a fact that the transcoder, based on its CES debut, is ethernet-only. Nobody's really saying that box has Moca.


----------



## Dan203

What makes you think this box will be sold to MSOs? MSOs have the preview, why would they need this new box? I thought this new thing was suppose to be the consumer equivalent to the Preview, or TiVos answer to the MCE extender.

Dan


----------



## Dan203

Fofer said:


> No Mac/PC client app? Even though it's just streaming? That'd be a shame.


TiVo Desktop is written by an outside company and has remained largely unchanged, with the exception of a few minor enhancements, for many, many, years. I would love for there to be a desktop app, but I just seriously doubt there will be. Although I wouldn't mind being proven wrong here.

Dan


----------



## magnus

Dan203 said:


> What makes you think this box will be sold to MSOs? MSOs have the preview, why would they need this new box? I thought this new thing was suppose to be the consumer equivalent to the Preview, or TiVos answer to the MCE extender.
> 
> Dan


Why wouldn't it be a box made for AT&T Uverse for example? It seems like that might be what they are referring to.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> What makes you think this box will be sold to MSOs? MSOs have the preview, why would they need this new box? I thought this new thing was suppose to be the consumer equivalent to the Preview, or TiVos answer to the MCE extender.
> 
> Dan


During the quarterly conference call when the product was announced, Rogers said it was being delivered to a number of operators in the middle of the year.

To take a step back for a second, it's somewhat semantical but when people called the Preview an extender, I thought that was bad because it gave the wrong impression of what it was. The Preview is a full-blown HD STB that functions 100% independently, whether a Tivo DVR is present or not. It just happens to be able to talk to other Tivos too if one is connected. One _might_ call that an extender, but it doesn't fit the understood meaning of the word.

The IP box, however, is dependent on a host device for content. It is the "true" extender. Similar to MCE extenders, as you said.

Your impression of the IP box is correct, I'm just correcting the impression of the Preview. My only point is that they're not analogous because the Preview isn't really an extender. It's a plain standalone STB.

Why would MSO's want this box? The same reasons we would. To lower costs and to have a complete lineup of product options. It'll be the least expensive of all their boxes to make, to rent, presumably has no services fees for retail consumers, and it extends Tivo's presence into the home beyond usually just one (or *MAYBE* two) boxes. They can tap more secondary and tertiary TVs with it. It's all part of a complete whole-home strategy.


----------



## morac

Fofer said:


> Even on the iOS app, support for S3/THD was an afterthought, and largely limited, when compared to its Premiere support. Annoyed me too, after all I'd spent.


Coincidentally, TiVo just released a new version of the iOS app that allows viewing and modifying the To Do list and Season Pass Manager on the S3/THD.


----------



## aindik

morac said:


> Coincidentally, TiVo just released a new version of the iOS app that allows viewing and modifying the To Do list and Season Pass Manager on the S3/THD.


Which was a long time coming. The app should, at the very least, allow you to do everything you can do on TiVo.com.


----------



## Fofer

morac said:


> Coincidentally, TiVo just released a new version of the iOS app that allows viewing and modifying the To Do list and Season Pass Manager on the S3/THD.


That's great. Just downloaded the update to work better with my Premiere. I see lots of functionality and UI improvements. However for THD/S3 users, the kicker for streaming support will be the ability to access (and control) the Now Playing list... And I don't think that support is baked into the old platform.

All that said, of anything TiVo is doing today, their iPad app (at least for Premiere owners) seems to be "their" best work. They update it frequently, it works well and looks great. ( I put "their" in quotes because my hunch (and I've read) that this work was subcontracted to some third party development house.)

It seems to be on a prioritized development cycle whereas the TiVO OS itself is lagging behind, remains HDUI incomplete. As it stands now, if I want the most aesthetically pleasing UI experience, I won't look at TiVo's menus at all, and I'd just use the iPad.

I just wish the "timeline scrubber" worked a bit differently. The time stamp should update as you scroll it, not only when you release your finger press. If I want to get to minute 34 it should be easier than just guessing and hoping for the best, then fast forwarding and rewinding.


----------



## GatorBlues

Does anyone know when this is expected to be released?


----------



## Dan203

No date has been announced, but they said something about summer in the conference call. TiVo has released a lot of new products in late August/Early September, so that's probably about right for this. Although sooner would be better. 

Dan


----------



## innocentfreak

Dan203 said:


> TiVo Desktop is written by an outside company and has remained largely unchanged, with the exception of a few minor enhancements, for many, many, years. I would love for there to be a desktop app, but I just seriously doubt there will be. Although I wouldn't mind being proven wrong here.
> 
> Dan


I would definitely love an updated desktop app. It is a shame that TiVo hasn't bothered with this.


----------



## jmpage2

Any news on this? Seems to be awfully quiet considering that this would be a pretty big launch for TiVo.


----------



## innocentfreak

jmpage2 said:


> Any news on this? Seems to be awfully quiet considering that this would be a pretty big launch for TiVo.


My guess is they are waiting until after this update comes out. I would think we would see them by August.


----------



## Dan203

I hope they come out soon. Having a way to stream from my TiVo to my iPad is something I desperately need. (my Slingbox is broken )

Dan


----------



## jmpage2

I don't believe that TiVo has given any indication of being able to watch live TV on your iPad from the TiVo at a location other than your local wifi network. It's also possible that the only option with their new iPad app might be side-loading of content for watching at a later time.


----------



## Fofer

That would be a shame (although yes, I have heard the same.) If the box transcodes on the fly, I'm thinking there will be _some_ way to get streaming to work outside our network, via port-forwarding, VPN, or something. It might not be a supported config, and there might be some buffering issues on networks with slower upstreams... but there will be _some_ way. I guess we'll see.


----------



## bradleys

jmpage2 said:


> I don't believe that TiVo has given any indication of being able to watch live TV on your iPad from the TiVo at a location other than your local wifi network. It's also possible that the only option with their new iPad app might be side-loading of content for watching at a later time.


They have clearly stated (and demonstrated) that this product will stream within your home network. They also indicated that the ability to stream externally has not be designed out of the system.

Will we ever see external streaming?

I think it is unlikely... The problem is not TiVo's ability to do it, it is the variety and uncontrolled quality of individual network connections. If they implement it - you will expect it to work. TiVo cannot guarantee that it will work in all instances, so it would end up being an implementation nightmare.

And while I would love to see it - I would rather not read all the whining that some guy couldn't stream from his TiVo @ 30 thousand feet on some transcontinental flight. :down:


----------



## Dan203

jmpage2 said:


> I don't believe that TiVo has given any indication of being able to watch live TV on your iPad from the TiVo at a location other than your local wifi network. It's also possible that the only option with their new iPad app might be side-loading of content for watching at a later time.


I'm pretty sure they demoed it streaming live to the iPad at CES. I don't actually care if it streams outside the home, I just need it inside. My wife wouldn't let me put a TV in the bedroom because it's too bright and loud and disturbs her. When I got my iPad I bought the Slingplayer app and used it a few times by just putting my iPad on my night stand. She said it was fine. However my Slingbox started acting up a few weeks later and now it wont hold a connection for more then a few minutes. (common problem, something about capacitors) I've been watching podcasts when going to be instead, but a lot of nights I end up falling asleep on the couch watching what I really want. And sleeping on the couch is terrible for my neck.

Dan


----------



## Fofer

bradleys said:


> They have clearly stated (and demonstrated) that this product will stream within your home network. They also indicated that the ability to stream externally has not be designed out of the system.
> 
> Will we ever see external streaming?
> 
> I think it is unlikely... The problem is not TiVo's ability to do it, it is the variety and uncontrolled quality of individual network connections.


Right. But if (A) they haven't specifically designed it "out of the system" (ie: they are not actively preventing it from working) and (B) I have sufficient upstream from my home and (C) I expect no support whatsoever from TiVo on such matters... then... I'd expect it to see it work, and I'll appreciate it.

I don't care so much about it being offered as a supported function for all TiVo customers. I just care about it working for me, so long as I bring the right ingredients and know-how to the table.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah the Slingbox uses a very complex system that dynamically adjusts the resolution and bitrate based on available bandwidth. I don't think TiVo wants to get into that. They just want to hard code a bitrate/resolution and have it just work. Just like the TiVo to TiVo streaming except with a transcode in the middle.

Although they may be forced to add some user settable options, maybe via a http UI, since different iOS/Android devices have different playback capabilities. (i.e. iPad 1 only does 720p, iPad 2/3 do 1080p) Edit: Or maybe make the app itself dynamically alert the transcoder box as to which settings to use based on the platform it's running on. In fact, on second thought, this is probably the better option. 

Dan


----------



## morac

Dan203 said:


> Although they may be forced to add some user settable options, maybe via a http UI, since different iOS/Android devices have different playback capabilities. (i.e. iPad 1 only does 720p, iPad 2/3 do 1080p) Edit: Or maybe make the app itself dynamically alert the transcoder box as to which settings to use based on the platform it's running on. In fact, on second thought, this is probably the better option.


My guess is TiVo will simply go with the lowest common denominator and simply stream at 720p or possibly lower.

Note also that while the iPad 2 can playback 1080p video, it doesn't benefit from it since the iPad 2 screen is only 720p. So only the new iPad would benefit from 1080p streaming.


----------



## Dan203

I considered that but older iPhones only support 640x480, and some Android devices have really odd resolution requirements. I think they're going to have to build some flexibility into the thing or the lowest common denominator is going to look pretty bad on the new iPad. 

Dan


----------



## aaronwt

What content is it going to be streaming? If it's only recorded broadcast content then why would it be streaming in 1080P? Broadcast content is 1080i or lower.


----------



## lily33

great news


----------



## WhiskeyTango

Has anything changed or is this still intended to be released only for cable companies?


----------



## Fofer

It'll be sold in retail too, we've been told.


----------



## jmpage2

Dan203 said:


> I'm pretty sure they demoed it streaming live to the iPad at CES. I don't actually care if it streams outside the home, I just need it inside. My wife wouldn't let me put a TV in the bedroom because it's too bright and loud and disturbs her. When I got my iPad I bought the Slingplayer app and used it a few times by just putting my iPad on my night stand. She said it was fine. However my Slingbox started acting up a few weeks later and now it wont hold a connection for more then a few minutes. (common problem, something about capacitors) I've been watching podcasts when going to be instead, but a lot of nights I end up falling asleep on the couch watching what I really want. And sleeping on the couch is terrible for my neck.
> 
> Dan


Note that I specifically gave the likely unsupported use case of being able to stream to the iPad from a non home network.

While I don't expect TiVo to support this, I also do expect users will expect it and whine when it turns out to not be possible.


----------



## atmuscarella

WhiskeyTango said:


> Has anything changed or is this still intended to be released only for cable companies?


Well nothing has changed recently however you seem to be way behind on what we have been told is going to happen.

The short version is there will be two devises.

One for cable companies that deploy TiVo DVRs that is a cable STB (has a cable tuner & cable card) and can stream from the TiVo DVR that the cable company rents you.

The other will be an IP only STB device (no tuners) for the stand alone market (us) that will be able to stream from TiVo Premieres (any Series 4).


----------



## WhiskeyTango

atmuscarella said:


> Well nothing has changed recently however you seem to be way behind on what we have been told is going to happen.
> 
> The short version is there will be two devises.
> 
> One for cable companies that deploy TiVo DVRs that is a cable STB (has a cable tuner & cable card) and can stream from the TiVo DVR that the cable company rents you.
> 
> The other will be an IP only STB device (no tuners) for the stand alone market (us) that will be able to stream from TiVo Premieres (any Series 4).


I'm aware of both products. Who exactly is telling us what you said? I was referring to the article on the first page that says Tivo has no plans to bring this to retail.


----------



## Joe3

aaronwt said:


> What content is it going to be streaming? If it's only recorded broadcast content then why would it be streaming in 1080P? Broadcast content is 1080i or lower.


Or why would they think that far ahead to 1080p Broadcast content. Its not that this company thinks ahead of their next law suit or anything


----------



## bradleys

WhiskeyTango said:


> I'm aware of both products. Who exactly is telling us what you said? I was referring to the article on the first page that says Tivo has no plans to bring this to retail.


*Because the topic of this thread is the transcoding device....*
http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/02/23/tivo-to-ship-place-shifting-transcoder-box-this-year/


> On today's call Tom Rogers stated that the transcoding box would ship "later this year", which I believe is the first firm public statement.


*Not the IP STB*
http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/02/24/tivo-to-launch-ip-only-stb-this-summer/


> Like the TiVo Preview, this unit is, initially at least, targeted at TiVo's MSO customers - not retail.





> But first TiVo would have to offer this at retail. I discussed this with Jessica & Jim, and they recognize that there is demand for such a product, and acknowledged that it'd certainly be a perfect companion for the Premiere Elite. But for now TiVo doesn't have any plans to bring the TiVo Preview to retail.


This is something the community needs to continue to bang the drum on. While I think this site is excessive with compainers - in this case, we in the retail market need to make it very unconfortable for TiVo until they decide to release the IP STB to the retail market.


----------



## jmpage2

TiVo have already conducted surveys on the IP STB for retail, so they are feeling the market out (apparently before committing to anything).


----------



## aindik

TiVo should write a streaming app for AppleTV and Roku like they've apparently written for iPad. How awesome would THAT be. Not that they'd ever do it.


----------



## Fofer

I've always assumed the "streaming app" would be an update to the existing iPad app... with a simple "watch now" button added to the NP list. At least that's what TiVo SHOULD do...


----------



## bradleys

Fofer said:


> I've always assumed the "streaming app" would be an update to the existing iPad app... with a simple "watch now" button added to the NP list. At least that's what TiVo SHOULD do...


There was a video that I cannot find at the moment, that demonstrated the functionality - and that is exactly how TiVo is designing this solution.

- From the iPad, select "Watch Now" and it will present you with an option to either watch on TV or the iPad... This was for both live TV or a recorded show.

- Sideloader was not demoed, but I suspect it will be just a simple as that.

This is the video I was talking about....

http://www.techofthehub.com/2012/01/tivos-tablet-and-smartphone-streaming-demo-video.html


----------



## Fofer

Cool. Next question. Will it be AirPlayable? :up:


----------



## aindik

Fofer said:


> Cool. Next question. Will it be AirPlayable? :up:


I like the way you think.


----------



## Saxion

atmuscarella said:


> One for cable companies that deploy TiVo DVRs that is a cable STB (has a cable tuner & cable card) and can stream from the TiVo DVR that the cable company rents you.


That device already exists. It's called the Preview.

The new "IP-based set top box" coming this summer is different than your description. It will not have a cable tuner nor need CableCARDs. Like the Preview, it will be capable of streaming direct from a TiVo Premier. As of now this box is not intended for the retail channel, but we all hope that changes and TiVo releases it to retail.


bradleys said:


> Because the topic of this thread is the transcoding device....


No, this thread covers both. Check the thread title.


----------



## bradleys

Fofer said:


> Cool. Next question. Will it be AirPlayable? :up:


I would highly, highly, highly doubt it...

That is the purpose of the IP STB


----------



## Fofer

Perhaps it won't have the airplay button because it's not using apple's built in video API/UI.... But full screen AirPlay mirroring... I'm gonna bet right now, that it will work.


----------



## bradleys

Saxion said:


> That device already exists. It's called the Preview.


Preview will never be available for the Retail market. I expect that the STB will be available retail and I hope it will be sooner then later.



Saxion said:


> No, this thread covers both. Check the thread title.


OK - but it gets confusing for everyone when the discussion is streaming along with one product and a question pops up that mixes the specs between the two devices.

The IP STB will stream from a base unit tivo to a Connected TV. It will not transcode to a mobile device.

The Transcoder is LAN connected and will transcode a stream and send it to a TiVo App on a mobile device. It will not send video to a TV

http://www.techofthehub.com/2012/01/tivos-tablet-and-smartphone-streaming-demo-video.html


----------



## Saxion

bradleys said:


> I expect that the STB will be available retail and I hope it will be sooner then later.


There is so much demand for this IP-based STB that I wouldn't be surprised if a gray market developed for it, regardless of TiVo's decision to bring it to retail. Since it won't contain a tuner or guide data, it might not require any provisioning by TiVo or your MSO, in which case you should be able to just plug one into your home network, search for your Premiere on the same subnet (you might need to enter your Media Access Key), and start streaming.

That said, I personally think that TiVo will offer the IP-based STB to retail customers after the MSOs take the brunt of the first wave of support calls.


----------



## P42

With a transcoder you might not need an IP STB, just a channel on a Roku or Apple TV.

Might Tivo only permit the transcoder to stream to non-TV devices due to pressure from cable co and content license holders?


----------



## Fofer

TiVo wants to sell TiVo hardware.


----------



## P42

Fofer said:


> TiVo wants to sell TiVo hardware.


I disagree. Tivo wants to sell subscriptions, and preferable not Lifetime ones.

If they'll let me stream to an iOS or Android phone or table, and not to devices like Roku or AppleTV, then I'll buy the TV cable for that device. They'll get the $ for the transcoder from me, but not for yet another device attached to each TV, and presumable a subscription. Particularly a device that is single function.


----------



## Fofer

My point was, if you could use a $50 Roku or a $99 AppleTV, and use that to stream from a TiVo, there would be no incentive at all to buy their IP set top box, which will undoubtedly be more expensive.


----------



## bradleys

Could TiVo make a Roku / Apple TV app as a companion to the transcoding device? Sure - why not?

Will they? Very unlikely, it doesn't make a lot of economic sense for them too.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> What content is it going to be streaming? If it's only recorded broadcast content then why would it be streaming in 1080P? Broadcast content is 1080i or lower.


iPads don't support interlaced video so the 1080i stream would need to be deinterlaced.

Dan


----------



## Dan203

Saxion said:


> There is so much demand for this IP-based STB that I wouldn't be surprised if a gray market developed for it, regardless of TiVo's decision to bring it to retail. Since it won't contain a tuner or guide data, it might not require any provisioning by TiVo or your MSO, in which case you should be able to just plug one into your home network, search for your Premiere on the same subnet (you might need to enter your Media Access Key), and start streaming.


Not possible. The MAK scheme is something TiVo only uses for TiVoToGo. For MRV and MRS they use this elaborate key exchange system which is based on hardware encryption chips. Getting a 3rd party device to spoof an MRV or MRS connection is not possible, and even if it were it would violate the DMCA.

Dan


----------



## megazone

bradleys said:


> This is something the community needs to continue to bang the drum on. While I think this site is excessive with compainers - in this case, we in the retail market need to make it very unconfortable for TiVo until they decide to release the IP STB to the retail market.


I don't think people are reading what I wrote correctly.

The IP STB is coming to retail. Period. Full stop.

There are no plans to bring the TiVo Preview - that's the box with the built-in tuner - to retail.

It seems like people are reading what I wrote about the latter as referring to the former. Though re-reading what I wrote I guess I can see how that would happen. I suppose since I knew what I meant when I wrote it it just seemed clear to me.


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> iPads don't support interlaced video so the 1080i stream would need to be deinterlaced.
> 
> Dan


It would make more sense then to stream it at 720p.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> It would make more sense then to stream it at 720p.


I agree, but not because of the deinterlacing. Deinterlacing is going to happen either way, down scaling isn't going to change that. Although given the size of the screens they're targeting no one would really notice if they did limit it to 720p and it would require less bandwidth.

Dan


----------



## nrc

megazone said:


> I don't think people are reading what I wrote correctly.
> 
> The IP STB is coming to retail. Period. Full stop.
> 
> There are no plans to bring the TiVo Preview - that's the box with the built-in tuner - to retail.


Quoted for emphasis. This is what I had understood from every other source. In fact, I see little reason why a cable MSO would have an interest in a strictly IP device. They're going to want to cling to coax connections for as long as possible.


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## jmpage2

What MegaZone has said is exactly what my understanding was. The Peview is for the provider business and the IP STB would be for retail. MegaZone must have some new info because based on what little I know TiVo was still feeling things like name, price, etc, out and it appeared to me that they weren't fully committed to it yet.


----------



## Saxion

Megazone, that's fantastic news if true! Is this the post you are referring to?


megazone said:


> The latest I've heard from TiVo - which was earlier today - there are no plans to bring the TiVo Preview to retail. They are tentatively planning to bring the IP STB (which is not the Preview, but a tunerless box) to retail. It will definitely be hitting MSOs, but the retail plans are still up in the air so there is nothing definite to report.


On the last conference call, the CEO indicated the IP STB was planned for cable partners only. What has changed? Is TiVo still "tentative" on retail or have they committed to it?


----------



## jmpage2

Saxion,

I think you're mistaken. Engadget reported on the conf call and clearly indicated that the IP STB was coming to _retail_.

CEO quote here;



> And we continue to make strides to bring the look and feel of the TiVo user interface to other platforms beyond the DVR. To that end, we plan to launch a product later this year that we previewed at CES, which allows a viewer to seamlessly take recorded content to 2nd screens such as iPads, iPhones or Android devices on either a streaming or side-loaded basis. Its four-stream/fast side-load capability is something that other offerings don't provide today and we believe is a critical element of a true on-demand whole home experience. Today, TiVo's industry-leading whole home solution includes a 4-tuner DVR, a 2-tuner DVR, and an HD-STB. By the end of the summer, we'll further that lead with the addition of the four-stream transcoder and an IP-STB.


----------



## MichaelK

bradleys said:


> They have clearly stated (and demonstrated) that this product will stream within your home network. They also indicated that the ability to stream externally has not be designed out of the system.
> 
> Will we ever see external streaming?
> 
> I think it is unlikely... The problem is not TiVo's ability to do it, it is the variety and uncontrolled quality of individual network connections. If they implement it - you will expect it to work. TiVo cannot guarantee that it will work in all instances, so it would end up being an implementation nightmare.
> 
> And while I would love to see it - I would rather not read all the whining that some guy couldn't stream from his TiVo @ 30 thousand feet on some transcontinental flight. :down:


I dont think we'll ever see it soon if every house in the worlld as a 250 gig/second upload via gold plated fiber. Tivo will not do anything to offend the content people- and while the big boys tacitly allow slingbox to placeshift I dont think tivo will even try. They'll be too afraid of offending people.

eventually when/if everyone else is doing it then maybe. But TiVo wont be out in front.


----------



## MichaelK

P42 said:


> I disagree. Tivo wants to sell subscriptions, and preferable not Lifetime ones.
> 
> If they'll let me stream to an iOS or Android phone or table, and not to devices like Roku or AppleTV, then I'll buy the TV cable for that device. They'll get the $ for the transcoder from me, but not for yet another device attached to each TV, and presumable a subscription. Particularly a device that is single function.


android apps work just fine on googletv STB's and i'd guess tv's with googletv integrated. (I know you can sideload on the STB's - unsure of on integrated models)

no need for another app for those folks.


----------



## MichaelK

megazone said:


> I don't think people are reading what I wrote correctly.
> 
> The IP STB is coming to retail. Period. Full stop.
> 
> There are no plans to bring the TiVo Preview - that's the box with the built-in tuner - to retail.
> 
> It seems like people are reading what I wrote about the latter as referring to the former. Though re-reading what I wrote I guess I can see how that would happen. I suppose since I knew what I meant when I wrote it it just seemed clear to me.


you were clear to me.


----------



## Saxion

jmpage2 said:


> Saxion,
> 
> I think you're mistaken. Engadget reported on the conf call and clearly indicated that the IP STB was coming to _retail_.
> 
> CEO quote here;


That quote from Tom Rogers doesn't say the IP STB is coming to retail.

Megazone knows what he's talking about; he has access to a lot of insider information. I'm just trying to learn what has changed since his previous post on the subject, where he said TiVo was "tentatively" considering bringing the IP STB to retail. I also can't find the post he's referring to that he says we've misunderstood.

I want to believe this as much as anybody, but I'd also like to know exactly what TiVo said on the subject, since they'd previously been quoted as saying they did not have retail plans for the IP STB so this is a big change for them.


----------



## jmpage2

TiVo said they don't have retail plans for the preview. The Preview is not an IP STB.


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## Saxion

jmpage2 said:


> TiVo said they don't have retail plans for the preview. The Preview is not an IP STB.


They also didn't indicate retail plans for the IP-STB. Here is Tom Roger's exact quote:


> It is a way for multiple sets in a household to be served. It works with a core unit, called a gateway unit, that allows for multiple streams to multiple television sets as part of a whole-home solution. *It is something that we will be delivering to a number of operators who are looking for it in the middle of the year*, so I'm not going to be precise with respect to which quarter we deliver it in. But it is an important part of our whole-home, multi-device set of solutions. We have a non-DVR set top today that we are deploying for operators who want to make sure that they have a cheaper multi-set solution so that they can have a non-DVR set top working out there, but this is a way to bring down cap-ex expense even further.


Emphasis added. The IP-STB was described above as a cost-savings option for operators who are already deploying the Preview but would like to have the option to deploy something cheaper. No retail plans given. Other TiVo execs have been quoted as saying they are aware of the retail demand for the IP-STB and would like to bring it retail someday, but had no concrete plans for retail at this time.

I'd like to buy an IP-STB as much as anybody, but I'm just trying to understand MZ's statement a little better. MZ himself recently said TiVo's retail plans for the IP-STB were "tentative".


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## innocentfreak

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-02/tivo-whole-home-dvr-extenders-headed-to-retail/

or you could read the actual quote from Tech of the Hub's page



> "And we continue to make strides to bring the look and feel of the TiVo user interface to other platforms beyond the DVR. To that end, we plan to launch a product later this year that we previewed at CES, which allows a viewer to seamlessly take recorded content to 2nd screens such as iPads, iPhones or Android devices on either a streaming or side-loaded basis. Its four-stream/fast side-load capability is something that other offerings don't provide today and we believe is a critical element of a true on-demand whole home experience. Today, TiVo's industry-leading whole home solution includes a 4-tuner DVR, a 2-tuner DVR, and an HD-STB. *By the end of the summer, we'll further that lead with the addition of the four-stream transcoder and an IP-STB."*


It looks like you are looking at an old quote where they announced the Preview which is already out and in use by RCN.


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## Saxion

innocentfreak said:


> or you could read the actual quote from Tech of the Hub's page.


That article jumped to a conclusion that the IP-STB would be retail at launch. Read the comments at the end of the very article you linked to:


> Your article still asserts that the IP-STB is a retail box. Do you have anything to support this? Others, specifically MegaZone, who have talked directly to TiVo representatives say this will not be a retail box, at least at launch this summer.


To which Megazone himself replied:


> Right now the IP STB is coming to MSOs, that's a given. TiVo *does* plan to bring it to retail - but currently only in a general sense. *They haven't decided when and how they will do that and it is still the subject of internal debate.* So it should be available to consumers - at some point, in some manner.


Look, there's been a lot of speculation and rumors about if and when the IP-STB would come to retail. It doesn't help that the transcoding box (a completely different product) was always intended for retail, and folks get the two mixed up all the time. Clearly, if MZ now says the IP-STB is definitely coming to retail "FULL STOP" then that is great news, but such a clear message from TiVo sounds like a new and important development. Something may have recently changed at TiVo, and MZ may have some new information. I'd like to learn more about that. MZ could mean one of 3 things:

1. TiVo has every intention of bringing the IP-STB to retail "someday" (but the initial summer launch remains MSO-only).
2. TiVo has specific plans for a future retail release date after the initial summer launch.
3. TiVo has specific plans to include retail in the initial summer launch.

I dunno, but without more data the current evidence we have points to #1.


innocentfreak said:


> It looks like you are looking at an old quote where they announced the Preview which is already out and in use by RCN.


Nope, I'm quoting the CEO's comments about the IP-STB which he made in the quarterly conference call on 2/23/2012. Read it carefully; he mentions the Preview, but contrasts it with the IP-STB as being a cheaper alternative that MSOs can opt for instead of the Preview.


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## MichaelK

my GUESS is that TiVo intends to bring it to retail but their hemming and hawing is that they haven't a clue how to sell it. Do they sell it as a $5 box with a 9.99 monthly fee. a 300 dollar box with "free" service. or any one of a hundred possibilities in-between. 

"Does Plan in a general sense" = they want to put can't figure out how to price it so dont have specific.
When? Need to figure out a price first
How? what combination of upfront and service fee. (they still haven't after like 10 years figured out the sweet spot to sell a pile in retail)
"Internal debate" = arguments over how the hec to price it.

again- just my guess at what is going on.


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## ah30k

Sorry if this has already been addressed... Streaming outside the home as zero to do with technology and everything to do with legal ramifications.


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## MichaelK

ah30k said:


> Sorry if this has already been addressed... Streaming outside the home as zero to do with technology and everything to do with legal ramifications.


... or politics...


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## BigJimOutlaw

Oh good, according to Megazone Tivo is going to be at The Cable Show next week. Maybe we'll get some more tidbits about either of these boxes on Monday. From Tivo's press blurb:

"New this year, TiVo is showcasing its whole-home and TV-everywhere solutions, which offer the same award-winning TiVo experience on every screen, big or small. "

Tivo showed off the Premiere Q and Preview at this event last year. Maybe we'll get lucky and see some hardware.

Article: http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/19/sorry-for-the-silence-and-the-cable-show-next-week/


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## megazone

As Big Jim noted TiVo will be at The Cable Show this week and I have an appointment to meet with them on Monday morning and I'll certainly be looking for clarification on their plans.

What I said earlier about the IP STB coming to retail is my understanding of what I've been told to date. But I don't work for TiVo, clearly, and I can't speak for them. And plans can always change right up until the last second so until the boxes are actually on retail shelves nothing is 100% certain. But my understanding is that the IP STB will be offered to both MSOs and via retail, while the TiVo Preview is unlikely to come to retail.

I've seen questions on why the MSOs would want the IP STB instead of the Preview - and that's simple: cost. The Preview is more expensive as it has more hardware, and it requires a CableCARD - more cost again. Look at other offerings out there, like the DISH Hopper. The tuners are on the main box and the client boxes stream from those tuners. That's the concept for the IP STB. You could have an XL4 with IP STBs and only have one CableCARD for the home. (Or perhaps an XL6, which would max out what an M-Card can do.)


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## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Oh good, according to Megazone Tivo is going to be at The Cable Show next week. Maybe we'll get some more tidbits about either of these boxes on Monday.


Maybe...


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## tomm1079

davezatz said:


> Maybe...


i see an IPad and a phone. Im looking forward to both Megazone and Zatz write ups!


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## MichaelK

had the "everything delivered" shot from the amazon prime threads railing about the "one box" ;-) 

But can't wait to hear the reports!


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## BigJimOutlaw

Can't quite make out the devices in the bedrooms but thanks for the tease. 

Looks like it's either flat or shaped like the bottom of a pyramid. lol.


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## BigJimOutlaw

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=221130&site=lr_cable

BOSTON -- TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO), the creator of and a leader in advanced television services, including digital video recorders (DVRs), for consumers, content distributors and consumer electronics manufacturers, today announced two major enhancements to its whole-home viewing solution. Its IP set-top box, delivers the TiVo experience on secondary televisions throughout the home. TiVo Stream, provides transcoding to enable content viewing on mobile devices.

Through these new products, operators working with TiVo can give their subscribers the content they want on any screen within the home, including secondary televisions, tablets and smart phones and all through the same easy-to-use TiVo interface. For example, the IP set-top box compliments the home's primary TiVo DVR by extending the TiVo experience onto secondary TVs including live and recorded television viewing. TiVo Stream delivers content to a customer's tablet or mobile device, creating a cohesive viewing experience no matter how they choose to watch their programs. Both products are optimized for operator distribution, including automated provisioning and activation, and the low-capital costs that operators demand.

Tom Rogers, President and CEO, TiVo Inc. said, "Consumers not only want an enjoyable TV experience, but now demand choice and the flexibility to watch content on multiple devices and screens within the home. TiVo has worked with our operator customers to create a suite of affordable companion devices that deliver a cohesive experience regardless of the screen the customer wants to use."


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## BigJimOutlaw

So we have one of the names.

The transcoder is the Tivo Stream. The IP box is still nameless apparently.

The press release suggests they're both MSO products, which is expected. But this doesn't rule out retail.


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## BigJimOutlaw

http://www.multichannel.com/article...o_Streams_TV_To_Tablets_Debuts_IP_Set_Top.php

"TiVo plans to release both products at retail and through select cable operators. The company said it will announce details on pricing and availability for both the IP set-top box and TiVo Stream in the coming months. "


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## davezatz

My post is up and here's a pic from The Cable Show floor.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-05/tivo-stream-ip-stb-set-for-fall-launch/



Highlights:


TiVo transcoder gets a name: Stream
TiVo IP-STB remains nameless
Summer retail launch for both moved to fall

PS My partner Mari is going to try and get us better pictures later today. Although, MZ may beat us to the punch and I'm sure he'll have a deeper dive as he typically does.

PPS There will be a press release. Not sure what time it'll cross the wires. 8AM is typical for TiVo.


----------



## aaronwt

davezatz said:


> My post is up and here's a pic from The Cable Show floor.
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-05/tivo-stream-ip-stb-set-for-fall-launch/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Highlights:
> 
> 
> TiVo transcoder gets a name: Stream
> TiVo IP-STB remains nameless
> Summer retail launch for both moved to fall
> 
> PS My partner Mari is going to try and get us better pictures later today. Although, MZ may beat us to the punch and I'm sure he'll have a deeper dive as he typically does.
> 
> PPS There will be a press release. Not sure what time it'll cross the wires. 8AM is typical for TiVo.


SO is the box on the right the TiVo Stream? If it is, then that looks much larger and different than the picture a couple of posts up. The IP STB looks small but has a funky shape.

Although the IP STB is what I'm mainly interested in. I plan on selling my Premiere XL and replacing it with the IP STB. And I'll probably get the TiVo Stream box just for the heck of it.


----------



## davezatz

aaronwt said:


> SO is the box on the right the TiVo Stream? If it is, then that looks much larger and different than the picture a couple of posts up. The IP STB looks small but has a funky shape.


The box on the left is the IP STB. The box on the right is the Preview. The Stream is not in this photo.


----------



## aaronwt

davezatz said:


> The box on the left is the IP STB. The box on the right is the Preview. The Stream is not in this photo.


OK. Thanks.

Do they show how the IP STB will work with multiple Elites errr XL4s in the home? How does it decide what tuner to grab?


----------



## davezatz

aaronwt said:


> Do they show how the IP STB will work with multiple Elites errr XL4s in the home? How does it decide what tuner to grab?


My pics were taken before the show floor opened and I'm not actually in attendance...  We'll have to wait for Gabe (Tech of the Hub) or Megazone to fill us in after they go hands on.


----------



## Aero 1

will the ip box be moca?


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## davezatz

Aero 1 said:


> will the ip box be moca?


Yah, it has MoCA. Presumably, we'll also be able to use Ethernet in lieu of MoCA for retail.


----------



## Aero 1

davezatz said:


> Yah, it has MoCA. Presumably, we'll also be able to use Ethernet in lieu of MoCA for retail.


sweet. i was counting on moca so i dont have to run a drop to my kitchen.


----------



## aindik

Does my provider have to bless the IP STB or can I just use it?

Will the Stream be able to stream to competitor STBs (like Roku or AppleTV) or just mobile devices? If I could replace 3 DVRs with one XL4, one Stream, and 3 AppleTVs, that would be pretty cool. If I need to buy 3 IP STBs, that would be less cool.

Can the IP STBs do Amazon stuff? If so, Prime streaming, or download only?


----------



## davezatz

aindik said:


> Does my provider have to bless the IP STB or can I just use it?
> 
> Will the Stream be able to stream to competitor STBs (like Roku or AppleTV) or just mobile devices? If I could replace 3 DVRs with one XL4, one Stream, and 3 AppleTVs, that would be pretty cool. If I need to buy 3 IP STBs, that would be less cool.
> 
> Can the IP STBs do Amazon stuff? If so, Prime streaming, or download only?


The IP STB is supposed to replicate the functionality of the Premiere, minus those CableCARDs. So I'd think it'd do Netflix (for retail). Amazon is interesting - their app hasn't been updated and they download the videos, versus stream. Not sure if the IP STB will have sufficient storage or if they would support it.

Right now the Stream is being pitched for smartphones and tablets. Could they make a Roku client? Probably. Will they? Probably not - they'd want you to buy the IP STB instead. Apple TV only has apps from companies/services Apple has partnered with, so I doubt you'll see it there.


----------



## aindik

davezatz said:


> The IP STB is supposed to replicate the functionality of the Premiere, minus those CableCARDs. So I'd think it'd do Netflix (for retail). Amazon is interesting - their app hasn't been updated and they download the videos, versus stream. Not sure if the IP STB will have sufficient storage or if they would support it.


If I d/l an Amazon video to my DVR, can I watch it on another TV via the IPSTB? Can I watch it on my iPad via the Stream?



davezatz said:


> Right now the Stream is being pitched for smartphones and tablets. Could they make a Roku client? Probably. Will they? Probably not - they'd want you to buy the IP STB instead. Apple TV only has apps from companies/services Apple has partnered with, so I doubt you'll see it there.


If I have to buy a TiVo IP STB for TiVo, an AppleTV for iTunes and Airplay, and a Roku for Amazon Prime, I'm going to run out of HDMI inputs pretty fast.

Can the Stream do live TV, or only recordings?


----------



## davezatz

aindik said:


> If I d/l an Amazon video to my DVR, can I watch it on another TV via the IPSTB? Can I watch it on my iPad via the Stream?


Unknown, but I doubt it. Of course, this problem would go away if Amazon would produced an updated Instant Streaming app for TiVo.



> Can the Stream do live TV, or only recordings?


Yes, it can do live TV in addition to recordings.


----------



## aindik

davezatz said:


> Yes, it can do live TV in addition to recordings.


Sweet. Any restrictions on that?


----------



## sbiller

aindik said:


> Sweet. Any restrictions on that?


There shouldn't be any restrictions on live TV. It will essentially "steal" a tuner from the base Premiere unit.


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> The IP STB is supposed to replicate the functionality of the Premiere, minus those CableCARDs. So I'd think it'd do Netflix (for retail). Amazon is interesting - their app hasn't been updated and they download the videos, versus stream. Not sure if the IP STB will have sufficient storage or if they would support it.
> 
> Right now the Stream is being pitched for smartphones and tablets. Could they make a Roku client? Probably. Will they? Probably not - they'd want you to buy the IP STB instead. Apple TV only has apps from companies/services Apple has partnered with, so I doubt you'll see it there.


I expect that at some point it would make sense for TiVo to support smart TVs and other 3rd party devices like Roku, ATV, etc. I suspect they won't be making a lot of money (if anything) on the IP-STB. Once a customer has a TiVo gateway device in their home, they've locked them into the TiVo eco-system which should be their goal. We know that Charter, as an example, wants to lower their capital expense by supporting smart TVs and other customer provided media devices.

The catch with Smart TVs is the Smart TV vendor would need to write the app to support TiVo. If there aren't a lot of devices in the field, it wouldn't pay for the TV maker to devote the engineering resources to write the app.


----------



## davezatz

sbiller said:


> I expect that at some point it would make sense for TiVo to support smart TVs and other 3rd party devices like Roku, ATV, etc. I suspect they won't be making a lot of money (if anything) on the IP-STB.


Doubt it. Us retail customers are just gravy at this point. Their core business/customer is the cable industry and there's no need to integrate into those devices for them - the Stream is about 'second screen'.


----------



## innocentfreak

It will be interesting to see how well the Stream box does in offloading.

According to the Multichannel article we should see some transcoding built into the new models in 2013. I am thinking this is the first mention of a new TiVo model?

http://www.multichannel.com/blog/BIT_RATE/33325-Cable_Show_2012_TiVmits_Full_Slingbox_ing_from_TiVo_Stream_.php



> Eventually, TiVo expects to embed transcoding features directly into its DVRs, in products to be released in 2013, Klugman said. The company hasn't divulged what transcoding technology it would use for that.


----------



## muzzymate

These boxes sound amazing and I can't wait to add them to my existing Premiere setup. Now if TiVo could hurry up with that developer SDK so we can get an expanded app lineup. 

My Tivo Wishlist for it to truly be the "One Box" that it set out to be includes:

- Additional video sources including but not limited to: HBO Go, Epix, ESPN3, VUDU, Vimeo, MLB.TV, NBA, NHL, AOL HD, Amazon Prime Streaming...
- Unified Playlists - I'm curious to see how the IP-STB handles multiple TiVos on the network. I'd love on the Premiere and the new IP-STB top to be presented one list regardless of where the content is. Now that streaming is enabled, this shouldn't be that difficult. 
- A better media serving PC/Mac application that's integrates in with TiVo's excellent search; TiVo Desktop doesn't handle hundreds of videos well nor does it fit with the rest of the TiVo UI. Streambaby functions well but is complicated to setup for novices and isn't integrated with Search.


----------



## jmpage2

It's great to get confirmation that these two new boxes are coming to retail... it's awful to find out we could be waiting till the end of the year to get them.


----------



## aaronwt

innocentfreak said:


> It will be interesting to see how well the Stream box does in offloading.
> 
> According to the Multichannel article we should see some transcoding built into the new models in 2013. I am thinking this is the first mention of a new TiVo model?
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/blog/BIT_RATE/33325-Cable_Show_2012_TiVmits_Full_Slingbox_ing_from_TiVo_Stream_.php


I guess I'll be selling my Elites sooner than I thought.


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## fyodor

You won't be able to the IP STB to your existing retail setup. Read the press release again. The IP STB will only be able to stream from a Tivo Premier Q (The provider box) whereas the the streamer can stream from either a Premier or Premier Q.

They don't want to lose out on the subscription fees by having people replace their second retail premieres with IP STBs.



muzzymate said:


> These boxes sound amazing and I can't wait to add them to my existing Premiere setup. Now if TiVo could hurry up with that developer SDK so we can get an expanded app lineup.
> 
> My Tivo Wishlist for it to truly be the "One Box" that it set out to be includes:
> 
> - Additional video sources including but not limited to: HBO Go, Epix, ESPN3, VUDU, Vimeo, MLB.TV, NBA, NHL, AOL HD, Amazon Prime Streaming...
> - Unified Playlists - I'm curious to see how the IP-STB handles multiple TiVos on the network. I'd love on the Premiere and the new IP-STB top to be presented one list regardless of where the content is. Now that streaming is enabled, this shouldn't be that difficult.
> - A better media serving PC/Mac application that's integrates in with TiVo's excellent search; TiVo Desktop doesn't handle hundreds of videos well nor does it fit with the rest of the TiVo UI. Streambaby functions well but is complicated to setup for novices and isn't integrated with Search.


----------



## fyodor

aaronwt said:


> OK. Thanks.
> 
> Do they show how the IP STB will work with multiple Elites errr XL4s in the home? How does it decide what tuner to grab?


Based on the press release the IP STB will only work with with the Premier Q, the provider box. They probably don't want to lose out on subscription fees that they'd get from someone buying an extra box.


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## davezatz

fyodor said:


> You won't be able to the IP STB to your existing retail setup. Read the press release again.


The press release is specific to the event TiVo is presenting at (The Cable Show). There will be a retail IP-STB and TiVo has told me it's coming this "fall."


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## fyodor

davezatz said:


> The press release is specific to the event TiVo is presenting at (The Cable Show). There will be a retail IP-STB and TiVo has told me it's coming this "fall."


I understand that the box is being sold retail, as indicated by the press release at the bottom. It doesn't mean that it will work with retail Tivo boxes. The press release specifically says that both will be available in retail, that the streamer works with the Premiere and Premiere Q, and the the IP STB works just with the Premier Q.

And this makes sense-the IP streamer will not replace a potential subscription so there's no harm in allowing it to work with retail Tivos.

I'd be thrilled if I was wrong, but it's hard to read the press release any other way.

BOSTON, MA -- (Marketwire) -- 05/21/2012 -- TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO), the creator of and a leader in advanced television services, including digital video recorders (DVRs), for consumers, content distributors and consumer electronics manufacturers, today announced two major enhancements to its whole-home viewing solution. Its IP set-top box, delivers the TiVo experience on secondary televisions throughout the home. TiVo Stream, provides transcoding to enable content viewing on mobile devices.

Through these new products, operators working with TiVo can give their subscribers the content they want on any screen within the home, including secondary televisions, tablets and smart phones and all through the same easy-to-use TiVo interface. For example, the IP set-top box complements the home's primary TiVo DVR by extending the TiVo experience onto secondary TVs including live and recorded television viewing. TiVo Stream delivers content to a customer's tablet or mobile device, creating a cohesive viewing experience no matter how they choose to watch their programs. Both products are optimized for operator distribution, including automated provisioning and activation, and the low-capital costs that operators demand.

Tom Rogers, President and CEO, TiVo Inc., said, "Consumers not only want an enjoyable TV experience, but now demand choice and the flexibility to watch content on multiple devices and screens within the home. TiVo has worked with our operator customers to create a suite of affordable companion devices that deliver a cohesive experience regardless of the screen the customer wants to use."

*The IP set-top box works with the TiVo Premiere Q*, a home's primary gateway device, to give consumers access to live and recorded TV, operator VOD, plus broadband-delivered content on every TV in the house. This is delivered through the innovative TiVo experience consumers have come to know and love. It includes integrated MoCA to simplify home networking and multi-room applications.

*TiVo Stream seamlessly delivers the content available on a consumer's TiVo Premiere or Premiere Q DVR *to alternative screens such as iPads and iPhones. Unlike similar offerings in the market, this is the first product to enable streaming or download of shows simultaneously to multiple portable devices without interrupting what's playing on the television. The power of TiVo Stream enables users to quickly transfer shows to their mobile device for viewing outside the home.

*TiVo will release both products at retail and through select cable operators. *Additional details on availability for both the IP set-top box and TiVo Stream will be announced in the coming months.

TiVo unveiled details about both products during the 2012 NCTA Cable Show in Boston. For more information visit the TiVo booth #1859 located in the main exhibit hall.


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## aaronwt

if it can't be used with retail boxes than it makes no sense to sell it at retail. The Q is only available from the cable companies. So any companion box should be offered for rent through the cable companies as well. I would expect a box sold at retail to be able to be used with a retail version of the TiVo. The cable companies will want to bundle the IP STBs with their Q boxes not have a user lease the Q and add a box from a retail channel. That will make servicing the devices a nightmare since the customer is not getting the devices through the cable company. The cable company would only be responsible for their products, not the retail versions. By supplying all the devices the cable companies would have less headaches and get more money as well.


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## davezatz

fyodor said:


> I understand that the box is being sold retail, as indicated by the press release at the bottom. It doesn't mean that it will work with retail Tivo boxes.


Not sure how much more clear I can be. I have phone calls with TiVo. They tell me things. There will be an IP STB this fall that works with retail TiVo Premiere hardware. At the very least, it'll be the Elite. But I'm getting confirmation on the regular Premiere which I believe they had already confirmed for me.


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## BigJimOutlaw

No retail market would exist for a product exclusive to the MSO boxes. The potential market is all of tens of thousands of theoretical customers, who are already unwilling to buy retail boxes because they rented the Tivo from the MSO in the first place. lol.

The language is unclear but it's understood to work with retail Premieres.

What I guess I would like clarification on is, will the IP STB work with plain Premieres or is it strictly a Q/Elite/XL4 accessory? Edit: I see Dave is on the case for this question.


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## aaronwt

fyodor said:


> ...........
> They don't want to lose out on the subscription fees by having people replace their second retail premieres with IP STBs.


That's one reason why I would expect an IP STB to have a monthly fee involved with it. As long as the monthly fee is priced low enough, they will have recurring fees from the IP STB for many, many years. While lifetime service on a box drops off their financials after a few years.

For me I'm looking at the IP STB to replace a Premire XL so I can drop the cable card which is $4 a month from FiOS. I have no problem selling my XL and dumping the cable card as long as the monthly fee for the IP STB is no higher than $5 a month. Of course the lower the monthly fee the better.


----------



## fyodor

davezatz said:


> Not sure how much more clear I can be. I have phone calls with TiVo. They tell me things. There will be an IP STB this fall that works with retail TiVo Premiere hardware. At the very least, it'll be the Elite. But I'm getting confirmation on the regular Premiere which I believe they had already confirmed for me.


OK-if they told you that, that's great news. Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## davezatz

davezatz said:


> There will be an IP STB this fall that works with retail TiVo Premiere hardware. At the very least, it'll be the Elite. But I'm getting confirmation on the regular Premiere which I believe they had already confirmed for me.


Heard back from TiVo: "Designed to just work with XL4 at launch." Because the IP STB co-opts a tuner for live TV they want to ensure a good user experience on the Premiere side.


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## BigJimOutlaw

fyodor said:


> They probably don't want to lose out on subscription fees that they'd get from someone buying an extra box.


They said this about dual tuner Tivos... and quad tuner Tivos. Bottom line is, by and large, a $200 extender doesn't compete with $500-800 DVRs in the real world. It might compete with some of us here inside the Tivo bubble who have a lot of Tivo hardware, but not outside the bubble. With this box, Tivo will be extending their reach to more TVs than it currently can. It's a net gain.


----------



## aaronwt

davezatz said:


> Heard back from TiVo: "Designed to just work with XL4 at launch." Because the IP STB co-opts a tuner for live TV they want to ensure a good user experience on the Premiere side.


That's great new!! Thanks for the clarification.

So now I just need to decide when I sell my Premiere XL. I might as well sell it sooner than later since I still have my $6.95 a month Premiere(I carry this one to my GFs house and only use it with OTA) to use in that room.


----------



## jmpage2

davezatz said:


> Heard back from TiVo: "Designed to just work with XL4 at launch." Because the IP STB co-opts a tuner for live TV they want to ensure a good user experience on the Premiere side.


Makes sense. The XL4 is also the only box with a gigabit network interface and onboard MOCA both of which will make integration for typical retail customers easier.


----------



## aindik

Limiting it to the XL4 makes some sense. But it's a shame that it won't work with any of the TiVos that support over the air broadcasts.


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## davezatz

I updated my post with new pics from the show floor:

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-05/tivo-stream-ip-stb-set-for-fall-launch/

Here's the rear of the IP STB. See how small it is?


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## sbiller

fyodor said:


> You won't be able to the IP STB to your existing retail setup. Read the press release again. The IP STB will only be able to stream from a Tivo Premier Q (The provider box) whereas the the streamer can stream from either a Premier or Premier Q.
> 
> They don't want to lose out on the subscription fees by having people replace their second retail premieres with IP STBs.


Why would they release the IP-STB to retail if it only worked with the MSO Q? IMHO, this is a poorly worded Press Release. The IP-STB will be compatible with the Q/Elite/XL4 or the two-tuner Premiere. They could, if they were worried about cannibalization of their Premiere line force you to use the Elite/XL4 to use the IP-STB. That would be an artificial limitation and wouldn't be a good move for TiVo.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Thanks Dave, looks good. Good idea to support analog output with dongles.


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## aaronwt

Is the USB port only for the BT remote?


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## Aero 1

davezatz said:


> I updated my post with new pics from the show floor:
> 
> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2012-05/tivo-stream-ip-stb-set-for-fall-launch/
> 
> Here's the rear of the IP STB. See how small it is?


dammit! and you are saying this thing wont be available for retail premiere at launch? my fios router will handle the moca and since i'm OTA only and this is what i need in my kitchen!!!


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## sbiller

Aero 1 said:


> dammit! and you are saying this thing wont be available for retail premiere at launch? my fios router will handle the moca and since i'm OTA only and this is what i need in my kitchen!!!


Is that a rhetorical question?

I can already see the tweets to @tivodesign... "why can't I use the IP-STB with my TiVo Premiere?"

From a business perspective, it makes sense to push users who want a quality WHDVR experience to the Elite/XL4 as the gateway. TiVo makes money on every XL4 sale versus the $149 Premiere which is probably still subsidized.

I'm starting to sway towards Aaron's argument that the IP-STB might carry some nominal subscription fee at retail. My guess is $129 plus $4.95/mo or $199 lifetime.


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## Aero 1

sbiller said:


> Is that a rhetorical question?
> 
> I can already see the tweets to @tivodesign... "why can't I use the IP-STB with my TiVo Premiere?"
> 
> From a business perspective, it makes sense to push users who want a quality WHDVR experience to the Elite/XL4 as the gateway. TiVo makes money on every XL4 sale versus the $149 Premiere which is probably still subsidized.
> 
> I'm starting to sway towards Aaron's argument that the IP-STB might carry some nominal subscription fee at retail. My guess is $129 plus $4.95/mo or $199 lifetime.


where in my question/statement did i mention that i dont or wouldnt want to pay a sub price for this?


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## BigJimOutlaw

davezatz said:


> Heard back from TiVo: "Designed to just work with XL4 at launch." Because the IP STB co-opts a tuner for live TV they want to ensure a good user experience on the Premiere side.


Kind of unfortunate. Totally understand the live tuner thing, but I would really like to stream pre-recorded stuff off a plain Premiere also. If this could be enabled as long as an Elite was also present, that would be good... But, meh, doubt they'd do that.


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## sbiller

Aero 1 said:


> where in my question/statement did i mention that i dont or wouldnt want to pay a sub price for this?


I was responding to your comment,



> you are saying this thing wont be available for retail premiere at launch?


Dave Zatz clearly stated that,



> Heard back from TiVo: "Designed to just work with XL4 at launch." Because the IP STB co-opts a tuner for live TV they want to ensure a good user experience on the Premiere side.


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## BigJimOutlaw

edit: nvm


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## Dan203

My biggest issue with this is that the Elite/XL4 doesn't support analog. I still have about 50 stations in my area that are analog only and can only be recorded on a standard Premiere. If the iPad streaming box doesn't work with standard Premiere's then I wont be able to watch any of my analog recordings via it, and one of the main reasons I wanted it was so I could watch The Daily Show when going to bed which is only available via analog in my area. 

Dan


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## Aero 1

sbiller said:


> I was responding to your comment,
> 
> Dave Zatz clearly stated that,


that was implied and acknowledged by my dammit exclamation followed by the repeat of the question in which that has already been answered then followed by another exclamation stating that this is what i need. you know, how humans converse with others naturally.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Dan203 said:


> My biggest issue with this is that the Elite/XL4 doesn't support analog. I still have about 50 stations in my area that are analog only and can only be recorded on a standard Premiere. If the iPad streaming box doesn't work with standard Premiere's then I wont be able to watch any of my analog recordings via it, and one of the main reasons I wanted it was so I could watch The Daily Show when going to bed which is only available via analog in my area.
> 
> Dan


The Tivo Stream (the transcoder) works with all Premieres. Only the IP box is limited.


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## Fofer

Dan203 said:


> My biggest issue with this is that the Elite/XL4 doesn't support analog. I still have about 50 stations in my area that are analog only and can only be recorded on a standard Premiere. If the iPad streaming box doesn't work with standard Premiere's then I wont be able to watch any of my analog recordings via it, and one of the main reasons I wanted it was so I could watch The Daily Show when going to bed which is only available via analog in my area.
> 
> Dan


There has never been any suggestion that the _Streamer_ (for iPads) wouldn't work with the standard, consumer Premiere.

It's the IP-STB for sharing to other TV screens that everyone's asking about, whether it will be sold via retail, whether it will work with the standard Premiere, etc.


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## compnurd

Yeh this changes alot of things..... I guess the bigger question is, will the IP Device have a guide and such... I would love two of these for the kids rooms but i only have two premieres right now and this wont work with them.. If it gives me all the features of the Regular box, i would be willing to purchase a XL4 and add these to my home...


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## BigJimOutlaw

Starting to think the "Tivo Stream" is a bad name. Both of these boxes are associated with streaming. Having a dual-topic thread probably doesn't help. Dave was right, it should have been called TivoToGo 2.0.


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## sbiller

Aero 1 said:


> that was implied and acknowledged by my dammit exclamation followed by the repeat of the question in which that has already been answered then followed by another exclamation stating that this is what i need. you know, how humans converse with others naturally.


Hence, the reason I asked you if it was a rhetorical question?!?


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## sbiller

compnurd said:


> Yeh this changes alot of things..... I guess the bigger question is, will the IP Device have a guide and such... I would love two of these for the kids rooms but i only have two premieres right now and this wont work with them.. If it gives me all the features of the Regular box, i would be willing to purchase a XL4 and add these to my home...


The IP-STB attempts to replicate the experience of a one-tuner TiVo Premiere. You will be able to perform all of the functionality as if your were interacting with the XL4. Guide, Netflix, Search, Season Passes, etc. should work seamlessly. TiVo has quite a bit of software to develop to make this work "seamlessly". Currently, the TiVo Preview works well but has a number of limitations. The late Summer, early fall date is probably more due to software than hardware.


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## Dan203

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Tivo Stream (the transcoder) works with all Premieres. Only the IP box is limited.





Fofer said:


> There has never been any suggestion that the _Streamer_ (for iPads) wouldn't work with the standard, consumer Premiere.
> 
> It's the IP-STB for sharing to other TV screens that everyone's asking about, whether it will be sold via retail, whether it will work with the standard Premiere, etc.


Ahhh... I must have misread. I'm not the first person in this thread to confuse facts about one with the other. We really should have split these into their own threads. 

Dan


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## magnus

Why is TiVo such a tease? What's the pricing for this? Is there a monthly fee? Will there be Netflix or Amazon Prime on the IP box?


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## davezatz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Starting to think the "Tivo Stream" is a bad name. Both of these boxes are associated with streaming. Having a dual-topic thread probably doesn't help. Dave was right, it should have been called TivoToGo 2.0.


TiVo backed themselves into a corner with both branding and pricing when it comes to the IP STB and the Premiere. TiVo also calling the Q/Elite/XL4 by three different names hasn't helped and the somewhat overlapping feature set of the Preview and IP STB (that has no name). To make it more complex, what do you call the Virgin Media Cisco which might become Sansung or the Pace box? There will be a lot of user education marketing materials needed when these goes live, whether it's MSO or retail.



Dan203 said:


> Ahhh... I must have misread. I'm not the first person in this thread to confuse facts about one with the other.


If people like us are getting confused, it's going to be a problem...


----------



## GatorBlues

If there's a monthly fee, I don't see the point. Being able to tack little used rooms onto a single TIVO subscription is what would make the IP-STB attractive. If it's reasonable, I'd buy at least 4 of them. I could stream to the office, the weight room in the basement, and the guest room where my exercise bike is located, plus put one in my bedroom so I can access my recordings off the TIVO (my wife won't give up the cable DVR in the bedroom because she refuses to give up having live tv, recordings, and on demand all available with a single click, and she keeps its small hard drive filled with her stuff so there's no room for mine). If it's really expensive or requires a monthly fee, I'll look at the upcoming Ceton Q or run splitters and wires (a huge pain, but worth it if TIVO and Ceton overprice these things).


----------



## innocentfreak

magnus said:


> Why is TiVo such a tease? What's the pricing for this? Is there a monthly fee? Will there be Netflix or Amazon Prime on the IP box?


It is a cable show and not CES so it makes sense they aren't really talking price.


----------



## morac

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The Tivo Stream (the transcoder) works with all Premieres. Only the IP box is limited.


The Stream can also co-opt a tuner from what I've read, so I wonder why the IP box is limited, but the stream is not?


----------



## Dan203

GatorBlues said:


> If there's a monthly fee, I don't see the point. Being able to tack little used rooms onto a single TIVO subscription is what would make the IP-STB attractive.


The survey I took a few months ago suggested that the price of this box would reflect the inclusion of a built in lifetime subscription. So I don't think TiVo is planning on charging a separate subscription fee. However expect the box to cost somewhere in the range of $200-$250/ea.

Dan


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

morac said:


> The Stream can also co-opt a tuner from what I've read, so I wonder why the IP box is limited, but the stream is not?


That's actually a good point... Dave?


----------



## sbiller

morac said:


> The Stream can also co-opt a tuner from what I've read, so I wonder why the IP box is limited, but the stream is not?


I don't understand this comment. The stream automatically transcodes any or all of the Elite/XL4 tuners. Why would it need to co-opt a tuner?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

sbiller said:


> I don't understand this comment. The stream automatically transcodes any or all of the Elite/XL4 tuners. Why would it need to co-opt a tuner?


The iDevice co-opts a tuner to do the live TV streaming, just like the IP box does (except without needing the Stream box.) Maybe we're all misunderstanding and talking past each other. lol


----------



## magnus

innocentfreak said:


> It is a cable show and not CES so it makes sense they aren't really talking price.


Ok, it still does not change the fact that TiVo is such a tease.  what happened to summer?


----------



## Dan203

morac said:


> The Stream can also co-opt a tuner from what I've read, so I wonder why the IP box is limited, but the stream is not?


Is that true? I thought the Stream could only stream recordings, I didn't think it had live TV support.

After thinking about it I wonder why they would limit either device to the Elite/XL4? I mean they're going to have to have some sort of tuner management built in anyway to allocate tuners for multiple IP boxes so really what's the difference if the source TiVo has 2 or 4 tuners?

I'm wondering if this restriction might only apply to the cable version of the products. Maybe they're trying to get MSOs to buy more Qs. Perhaps the retail product will be more flexible and will work with any Premiere box.

Dan


----------



## jkudlacz

Tivo Premiere has 3 tuners so even if you are watching one channel, recording on 2nd you still have 3rd tuner available for use by IP-STB.

We are assuming a lot of thing. Potentially those boxes will arrive toward the end of summer early fall.

In my opinion Tivo is not going to charge a subscription fee for a box which will pull the info from Tivo Premier or Elite. And keep in mind, Tivo will make money on each IP-STB box you purchase for your house, and when your friends will come to visit and ask you what is this, you will sell them on Tivo Premier or Elite plus IP-STB boxes.

Those boxes shouldn't cost more than $99-$149. This will encourage people to buy more, but I am assuming that TIVO's cost of making those will be below $80 which to be honest shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

jkudlacz said:


> Tivo Premiere has 3 tuners so even if you are watching one channel, recording on 2nd you still have 3rd tuner available for use by IP-STB.


Are you confusing the Premiere with the Virgin media box?


----------



## aaronwt

Dan203 said:


> The survey I took a few months ago suggested that the price of this box would reflect the inclusion of a built in lifetime subscription. So I don't think TiVo is planning on charging a separate subscription fee. However expect the box to cost somewhere in the range of $200-$250/ea.
> 
> Dan


I would rather have a lower price, like $100 to $150, and a small monthly fee, like $4 or $5. So I hope they have more than one service option.


----------



## mattack

So the Tivo Stream is not a superset of the IP STB? I was hoping you could generally use it to watch stuff from another TiVo, but ALSO use it to transcode for offline viewing on an ipad for example.


----------



## Fofer

No, the TiVo Streamer doesn't connect to a TV. It lets you stream within the house to an iPad or iPhone, and it lets you save local copies onto those devices for viewing when you're away from your own network too.


----------



## morac

Dan203 said:


> Is that true? I thought the Stream could only stream recordings, I didn't think it had live TV support.


I found where I read that it would support live TV. It was in the Engadget article from early this year when they witnessed a demo of the iPad app:



> The TiVo Premiere for iPad and iPhone apps were able to stream recordings, *watch Live TV* or download recordings to be watched later.


----------



## shaown

I will be very annoying if the IP STB does not support normal Premieres. I don't care if it coopts a tuner - that would not impact my user experience. I have 3 Premieres stacked up (all bought before XL4s/Elites were available) - I have 5 tuners left even if one is eaten up.

If they say they Normal/XL can't support cause of RAM or other constraints - then I understand. Arbitrary limits - would suck.


----------



## morac

Actually limiting it to the XL4 doesn't make a lot of sense since the box can also stream previous recordings and we know that works currently with Premieres. 

If TiVo is worried about lack of tuners, just make it so the device can't co-opt a tuner if there's a recording scheduled, assuming they want to leave a free tuner for watching live tv on the Premiere itself. If that's too difficult, at least allow it to stream recordings.


----------



## aaronwt

shaown said:


> I will be very annoying if the IP STB does not support normal Premieres. I don't care if it coopts a tuner - that would not impact my user experience. I have 3 Premieres stacked up (all bought before XL4s/Elites were available) - I have 5 tuners left even if one is eaten up.
> 
> If they say they Normal/XL can't support cause of RAM or other constraints - then I understand. Arbitrary limits - would suck.


The RAM is the same for all the Premieres. Two tuner and four tuner.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I agree.

Margret (and whomever else it concerns reading this), these 2 boxes are totally drool-worthy. Please do NOT limit the IP STB's to just the quad tuner boxes. Especially if our iDevices are able to co-opt a tuner from the Premiere using the TiVo Stream. Why give one device that freedom and not the other? This arbitrary limitation on the IP box is a poor decision that will just disappoint and frustrate the community and drastically limit the number of buyers (clearly). Premiere owners want a streamer too. Don't do this to the new toy.

At the VERY least, let it access recorded content if not live TV from the Premieres.


----------



## jfh3

Dan203 said:


> one of the main reasons I wanted it was so I could watch The Daily Show when going to bed which is only available via analog in my area.


You could just move to another TV market ...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Megazone has his article up. Very good stuff and specific explanations for things.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/22/tivo-stream-and-ip-stb-coming-to-msos-and-retail-this-year/

"This is the baby brother to the TiVo Preview and at launch it will only work with the TiVo Premiere XL4/Q - not the TiVo Premiere or Premiere XL. STOP! *Before you freak out, there is a reason, and this should change with a future update. Calm? OK.*"

Ok, well that's something. So I'll calm down now.  But I hope it's not going to take a year to resolve.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Megazone has his article up. Very good stuff and specific explanations for things.
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/22/tivo-stream-and-ip-stb-coming-to-msos-and-retail-this-year/
> 
> "This is the baby brother to the TiVo Preview and at launch it will only work with the TiVo Premiere XL4/Q  not the TiVo Premiere or Premiere XL. STOP! *Before you freak out, there is a reason, and this should change with a future update. Calm? OK.*"
> 
> Ok, well that's something. So I'll calm down now.  But I hope it's not going to take a year to resolve.


Megazone did an outstanding job reporting providing on some previously unreported details. :up:

I can't wait to get my hands on these two boxes!


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## davezatz

sbiller said:


> Megazone did an outstanding job reporting providing on some previously unreported details.


After reading his report on the IP STB, it makes me wonder if you'll lose a XL4 tuner for each IP STB you have on the network? At least with the initial software... Hm.


----------



## sbiller

> In the initial release this requires dedicating a tuner in the XL4 to the IP STB. Yes, that means the tuner is not available for recordings, etc. This is done during setup, you pair the IP STB with a single Premiere XL4 and select one tuner to dedicate.


This pretty much eliminates having more than two IP STB's in the home during the initial release period. I think I can tolerate having only 3 available tuners for recordings. I need to ask Megazone if its possible to actually record something on the tuner dedicated to the IP STB.


----------



## sbiller

davezatz said:


> After reading his report on the IP STB, it makes me wonder if you'll lose a XL4 tuner for each IP STB you have on the network? At least with the initial software... Hm.


Yep. That's my take on it. The tuner is hijacked and not available to the primary box. I probably can live with it for my current setup but if you have a need for more than one IP-STB it would essentially cripple the setup.


----------



## NotNowChief

The most frustrating thing about being a Tivo customer is that all new equipment is designed and deployed in that nasty thing we know as "Tivo Time". 

However, if I remember correctly, was it the CTO that left the company recently? Because it seems that Tivo is getting better with more things on the horizon since that guy left...any thoughts?


----------



## slowbiscuit

I don't see the big deal in dynamic tuner allocation that megazone mentioned - it's really no different than a user wanting to watch live TV when the box is busy today. Extend the same warnings that tuners aren't there to the IP STBs and you don't need this silly static tuner allocation, it's already running the same UI anyway. WMC has been doing this for years with extenders.

But agree that if all you're doing is watching recorded TV, there should be an option not to dedicate a tuner to the IP STB anyway.


----------



## jcthorne

davezatz said:


> Heard back from TiVo: "Designed to just work with XL4 at launch." Because the IP STB co-opts a tuner for live TV they want to ensure a good user experience on the Premiere side.


Well that's very dissappointing.

The XL4 is a cable only box just like the Q and does not work with OTA.

So the IP STB is for cable boxes only.

Very dissapointing.


----------



## sbiller

jcthorne said:


> Well that's very dissappointing.
> 
> The XL4 is a cable only box just like the Q and does not work with OTA.
> 
> So the IP STB is for cable boxes only.
> 
> Very dissapointing.


The second version of IP STB software should handle the tuner hijacking more elegantly and will support the base Premiere. I guess you could say that the initial release of the IP STB is for consumers on CableCARD equipped networks only since it doesn't support OTA. Its clear that TiVo is being driven by MSO timelines and needs to get this out very quickly since TiVo would normally not deploy a sub-optimal solution.

_I'm sure that last statement will get some chuckles but I know @bjdraw would agree with me! 
_


----------



## aaronwt

I wonder how long it will be for them to optimize the software. Having to dedicate one tuner to the Ip STB is certainly not ideal. Hopefully they incorporate the idea of not even dedicating a tuner to it so the box can only be used to play back pre-recorded content.
EIther way I plan on getting one.

AT least now we got some specifics. The article had alot of info.


----------



## davezatz

aaronwt said:


> I wonder how long it will be for them to optimize the software. Having to dedicate one tuner to the Ip STB is certainly not ideal. Hopefully they incorporate the idea of not even dedicating a tuner to it so the box can only be used to play back pre-recorded content.
> EIther way I plan on getting one.


I may pass, at least until the software is more robust. :/ (Although hopefully I'll have a review loaner to cover at launch if they also choose to spot me an XL4.) But I'm definitely purchasing the Stream. I have a number of use cases for it.


----------



## Fofer

Time Warner is pretty draconian with their CC flags, so I wouldn't be able to offload much to my iPad via the Streamer. I do have a VPN setup and a pretty fast upstream though, so I am hoping I'll be able to figure out a way to get the Streamer to serve content to me when I am on networks outside my LAN. If not, this unit doesn't interest me much at this time.


----------



## davezatz

Fofer said:


> I do have a VPN setup and a pretty fast upstream though, so I am hoping I'll be able to figure out a way to get the Streamer to serve content to me when I am on networks outside my LAN.


That'd be an excellent blog post...


----------



## tlc

Sounds like good stuff coming. A IP-STB / XL4 combo would get me to finally upgrade my 2 HDs. Half the monthly fees or Lifetime cost! No need to upgrade the disk! (Compared to 2 Premieres.)


----------



## moyekj

IP-STB is a non-starter for me if it takes a tuner for live TV which I never watch. Until there is an option to not steal any tuner I wouldn't even consider it. I have no interest in the Streamer either if limited to LAN only as I'd rather watch non-transcoded streams on a real display device within the home. Sounds like the software initially is going to be very primitive. If these limitations go away and there is no monthly fee for either then I may be interested.


----------



## aindik

It currently takes my computer over 2 hours to download a 1 hour HD show from my TiVoHD, plus another 45 minutes to transcode it into a format my iPad can see. I'd love to know how long XL4 + Stream will take to get a recording to my iPad.

It's annoying to be locked into cable in order to watch TiVo content in other rooms without additional DVRs in those rooms. But if I ever cut the cord, I wouldn't completely cut it. I'd keep my CableCARDs and get my OTA channels through the cable company rather than deal with an antenna.


----------



## GatorBlues

moyekj said:


> IP-STB is a non-starter for me if it takes a tuner for live TV which I never watch. Until there is an option to not steal any tuner I wouldn't even consider it. I have no interest in the Streamer either if limited to LAN only as I'd rather watch non-transcoded streams on a real display device within the home. Sounds like the software initially is going to be very primitive. If these limitations go away and there is no monthly fee for either then I may be interested.


I'm with you but for a different reason. I may watch live TV sometimes, but the attraction of an IP-STB is to have them in various rooms where I don't watch TV very often -- i.e., rooms where I don't want to pay Charter to have a separate STB for $7 a month. I was hoping to have 3 or 4 of the IP-STBs so I can turn on the TV in the exercise room for a half hour a couple times a week, or watch my recordings on my wife's TV in the bedroom maybe once a week, or let a guest watch TV on the rare occasions when we have overnight guests, all for a reasonable price. If every one of these new boxes will steal a tuner permanently, I wouldn't have any tuners left on the main box.

It is clear now that Tivo won't have something that works for me until they fix the software to allow active tuner management, so the late summer/fall release date is not relevant. The new question is, when will Tivo have the new software so that an IP-STB no longer steals a tuner 100% of the time, even when you aren't actually asking it to stream live TV? I also wonder how soon the Ceton Q will come out and what its limitations will be.

The wait continues. Very informative thread, though. Thanks everyone for the updates.


----------



## NotVeryWitty

If I want to watch something in the bedroom on a bigger TV display than the iPad's, can I use an Apple TV box hooked up to an HDTV, stream the show from the Tivo to the iPad (3rd gen) via the Tivo Stream, and then send it to the Apple TV via AirPlay?

[Even better would be if Tivo had an app running directly on the Apple TV -- would be nice if Apple would open it up to third-party apps.]


----------



## sbiller

TiVo Stream to extend TV viewing to mobile devices with the world's first deployment of multi-screen streaming from a DVR

BOSTON, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Zenverge Inc., a leading developer of Advanced Content Networking ICs, and TiVo Inc. TIVO -2.51% , the creator of and a leader in advanced television services including digital video recorders (DVRs), announced TiVo® Stream, a revolutionary product enabling streaming to tablets and smartphones with the same rich TV viewing experience TiVo customers know and love.

Based on the industry leading Zenverge TransAll(TM) Transcode engine, TiVo Stream will allow a viewer to seamlessly stream or download multiple live or recorded shows from a TiVo Premiere DVR to multiple devices like iPads or iPhones simultaneously. Its unique fast side-load capability is a critical element of a true on-demand experience and allows users to quickly download favorite shows to their tablets for later viewing.

This product takes advantage of the Zenverge TransFormat(TM), TransRate(TM), and TransScale(TM) functions to convert broadcast content into the format supported by tablets and smartphones. TransZip(TM) allows side-loading DVR content at a high speed into mobile devices for sync-n-go. Lastly, TransCrypt(TM) ensures that live and DVR content can be securely distributed in the home.

"Cable MSOs are keen to extend the whole home experience beyond the TV to include mobile devices," said TiVo's David Sandford, Vice President and General Manager, Service Provider Business. "Using the unprecedented quad HD transcoding capabilities of the Zenverge ZN200, we are bringing the unique TiVo experience that consumers love to the mobile screens."

"We're excited to work with TiVo on extending their premium TV viewing experience to second screens as they pioneer yet another blockbuster entertainment product following their success with the DVR," said Zenverge's Raghu Rao, Executive Vice President of Sales and Business Development. "TiVo Stream will enable service providers using TiVo's innovative advanced TV solutions to create a compelling anywhere, anytime, any device experience for their customers."

Zenverge's Advanced Content Networking ICs are the preferred transcoding solution for operators and box manufacturers for devices such as Gateways, DVRs, and IP/Broadcast streaming adapters.

About Zenverge

Zenverge is a fabless semiconductor company devoted to accelerating consumer access to next generation digital content and services. The company is a leading developer of Content Networking ICs built around the patented TransAll(TM) technology, a core requirement for next generation video services gateways. The company is based in Santa Clara, California. For more information please visit the company website: www.zenverge.com .

SOURCE Zenverge

Copyright (C) 2012 PR Newswire. All rights reserved


----------



## mbalgeman

GatorBlues said:


> I'm with you but for a different reason. I may watch live TV sometimes, but the attraction of an IP-STB is to have them in various rooms where I don't watch TV very often -- i.e., rooms where I don't want to pay Charter to have a separate STB for $7 a month. I was hoping to have 3 or 4 of the IP-STBs so I can turn on the TV in the exercise room for a half hour a couple times a week, or watch my recordings on my wife's TV in the bedroom maybe once a week, or let a guest watch TV on the rare occasions when we have overnight guests, all for a reasonable price. If every one of these new boxes will steal a tuner permanently, I wouldn't have any tuners left on the main box.
> 
> It is clear now that Tivo won't have something that works for me until they fix the software to allow active tuner management, so the late summer/fall release date is not relevant. The new question is, when will Tivo have the new software so that an IP-STB no longer steals a tuner 100% of the time, even when you aren't actually asking it to stream live TV? I also wonder how soon the Ceton Q will come out and what its limitations will be.
> 
> The wait continues. Very informative thread, though. Thanks everyone for the updates.


This 100%.


----------



## jmpage2

jcthorne said:


> Well that's very dissappointing.
> 
> The XL4 is a cable only box just like the Q and does not work with OTA.
> 
> So the IP STB is for cable boxes only.
> 
> Very dissapointing.


People can be as disappointed as they like, there are highly legitimate reasons that the XL4 is the only box supported initially.

The XL4 has a gigabit ethernet interface. Wi-fi will not be fast enough for reliable realtime streaming of HD content, users will get buffering, etc. Even over 100Mb wired ethernet it is questionable that the Premier could handle more than perhaps 1 stream at a time over ethernet without getting overwhelmed.

The XL4 has onboard MOCA and gigabit ethernet which will make the deployments far easier and far more reliable. It makes for an easier sales pitch to new customers as they can be sold a "bundle" that includes an XL4 as well as one or more streaming boxes for extra rooms in their home at a single bundle price, to better compete with whole home offerings from Dish and others.

It is highly likely that at a later time TiVo will come up with some kind of MOCA USB adapter, etc, for the Premiere and try to capture those customers.

As to pricing, I also took a survey for this box and the most popular pricing choice was almost certainly the $100-$150 choice with no subscription (which I selected). TiVo will have an incredibly hard time selling these at a $200-$250 price point when the typical "adjunct" box that people are looking at (ATV2, Roku, etc) sell for about $79-$99.

The only thing that this thread is missing at this point is the series-3 user who pops in and starts to ***** about why his/her 5 year old S3 won't support this stuff.


----------



## slowbiscuit

100mb ethernet is good for streaming at least 4 mpeg2 streams, given that the average stream is somewhere around 10-15 mb/s. Whether a stock Premiere could drive that many streams to IP STBs simultaneously is another question.


----------



## jmpage2

slowbiscuit said:


> 100mb ethernet is good for streaming at least 4 mpeg2 streams, given that the average stream is somewhere around 10-15 mb/s. Whether a stock Premiere could drive that many streams to IP STBs simultaneously is another question.


Yes, I understand that from a "pipe size" perspective more than one stream is possible, but there are many other factors that will affect the capability of the premiere from handling this.... and the size of the ethernet interface and lack of onboard MoCA are also factors.

TiVo probably knows exactly how many Premiere customers are hooked up with wi-fi and my bet is that it's a very very high percentage.

The chances of getting reliable realtime streaming of an HD program over wi-fi are rather low in many typical residential type installations... not to mention that the IP streamer box itself is only MoCa and ethernet.


----------



## jcthorne

Sounds like they earlier announced the IP STB to be available 'this summer' Now they realize the magnetude of the project, the hardware has been postponed until fall and functional software to run on it until sometime TBD.

With the premiere HD interface still unfinished at 2yrs and counting since release, any bets on when this device might actually work as envisioned?


On a brighter note, the Stream box discriptions sound remarkable if the device actually does what is being touted. Nothing on the market like this currently but again, the devil is in the details of the software running on it. Really look forward to seeing what this device can do.


----------



## aindik

jmpage2 said:


> The only thing that this thread is missing at this point is the series-3 user who pops in and starts to ***** about why his/her 5 year old S3 won't support this stuff.


Nope. Not missing from the thread. That was me. 

There are aspects of this that the Series 3 / TiVoHD should have been able to handle. Like being able to use the Stream to download content to an iPad.


----------



## aaronwt

jmpage2 said:


> People can be as disappointed as they like, there are highly legitimate reasons that the XL4 is the only box supported initially.
> 
> The XL4 has a gigabit ethernet interface. Wi-fi will not be fast enough for reliable realtime streaming of HD content, users will get buffering, etc. Even over 100Mb wired ethernet it is questionable that the Premier could handle more than perhaps 1 stream at a time over ethernet without getting overwhelmed.
> 
> The XL4 has onboard MOCA and gigabit ethernet which will make the deployments far easier and far more reliable. It makes for an easier sales pitch to new customers as they can be sold a "bundle" that includes an XL4 as well as one or more streaming boxes for extra rooms in their home at a single bundle price, to better compete with whole home offerings from Dish and others.
> 
> It is highly likely that at a later time TiVo will come up with some kind of MOCA USB adapter, etc, for the Premiere and try to capture those customers.
> 
> As to pricing, I also took a survey for this box and the most popular pricing choice was almost certainly the $100-$150 choice with no subscription (which I selected). TiVo will have an incredibly hard time selling these at a $200-$250 price point when the typical "adjunct" box that people are looking at (ATV2, Roku, etc) sell for about $79-$99.
> 
> The only thing that this thread is missing at this point is the series-3 user who pops in and starts to ***** about why his/her 5 year old S3 won't support this stuff.


The two tuner Premieres have no issue reading/writing seven HD streams(with three of the streams going to other boxes). The Elite/XL4 boxes can do nine read/write HD streams. Although I never tested with the new software to see if it can do more since I no longer have enough TiVos to test out to more than three other boxes. But the XL4/Elite does two more streams only because it has two more tuners that are being written to the hard drive.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Even though it requires an Elite/XL4 to pair with at first, I hope the ExtenTivo won't shut out all other boxes on the network as long as an Elite is present.

I have an Elite to loan the tuner (4 simultaneous recordings are rare) but if it can't also stream pre-recorded stuff from the plain Premiere in the livingroom, then my purchase is delayed until resolution. That'd suck. But at least it's being worked on. Hopefully not delayed for too long.


----------



## fyodor

moyekj said:


> IP-STB is a non-starter for me if it takes a tuner for live TV which I never watch. Until there is an option to not steal any tuner I wouldn't even consider it. I have no interest in the Streamer either if limited to LAN only as I'd rather watch non-transcoded streams on a real display device within the home. Sounds like the software initially is going to be very primitive. If these limitations go away and there is no monthly fee for either then I may be interested.


Agreed re the IP-STB and highly disappointing. I'd consider buying a quad tuner device to stream to these, but not if permanently lose a tuner. I'd rather have device that won't do live TV than one like this. Given Tivo's track record on upgrading devices after release I'm not terribly hopeful that this will be filed

The streamer doesn't interest me at all, especially if limited to LAN, but a lot of people seem to like sitting around their houses and watching on their tablets. I'm not one of those people.

I guess that I'm going to wait and see how the Ceton Extender looks.


----------



## Saxion

jmpage2 said:


> there are many other factors that will affect the capability of the premiere from handling this


No there aren't. TiVo has said they will support the Premiere, requiring only a SW update. The only reason the Premiere isn't supported at launch is that TiVo isn't finished with the SW needed to dynamically allocate a tuner for LiveTV streaming to the IP-STB, thus requiring a tuner be statically allocated to the IP-STB all the time (a minor issue for a 4-tuner box but a major issue for a 2-tuner Premiere).


----------



## Saxion

fyodor said:


> Given Tivo's track record on upgrading devices after release I'm not terribly hopeful that this will be filed


Yeah, I agree with you on many TiVo features. But in this case, it's almost a certainty they will fix this, simply because the current solution (dedicating a tuner) is far from optimal even on the Q, and TiVo and their operator customers know this. Operators will push for a fix for this, and we all know these days TiVo prioritizes their MSO customers above all else.


----------



## fyodor

aaronwt said:


> I wonder how long it will be for them to optimize the software.


It will probably be super-fast like with the Premiere HD interface and activation of the second core.


----------



## jmpage2

fyodor said:


> It will probably be super-fast like with the Premiere HD interface and activation of the second core.


lolz.


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, we've been hearing about this box for months now, and it still won't be out for even more months... If TiVo couldn't get their act together to release this properly for the regular Premiere units, I don't have much faith left in them...


----------



## sbiller

From Megazone... Post to come later.


----------



## jmpage2

So, I guess the question is, if you have multiple streamers in the home, and you want to do live viewing, is it a one to one relationship between the remote streamers and the tuners on the 4XL or can you designate one tuner for multiple streamers that becomes a shared resource between those streamer boxes?

The reason that I am asking is that I could get by with one less tuner on my 4XL, but I'd like to deploy three of the "extender" boxes, and only one of them at any given time would need tuner access.


----------



## sbiller

jmpage2 said:


> So, I guess the question is, if you have multiple streamers in the home, and you want to do live viewing, is it a one to one relationship between the remote streamers and the tuners on the 4XL or can you designate one tuner for multiple streamers that becomes a shared resource between those streamer boxes?
> 
> The reason that I am asking is that I could get by with one less tuner on my 4XL, but I'd like to deploy three of the "extender" boxes, and only one of them at any given time would need tuner access.


That's a great question. The way its written it sure seems like it grabs a tuner on demand so it might be possible to have three IP-STB's and only grab one or two tuners depending on how many TVs you are trying to simultaneously watch live television on.


----------



## aaronwt

They said that initially it would be dedicated to the IP STB. Which is what that screen seems to show. And when it's dedicated, you lose use of that tuner on the primary box.(which is also what the pic shows) So you would only have three tuners, or two(based on the picture), depending on whether you have one or two IP STBs linked. 
And then later they will update the software to dynamically link the tuners.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

As Megazone describes it in his article, it's a 1:1 relationship. If you have 2 IP STB's, each gets a dedicated permanent tuner, making the Elite a 2-tuner recorder. And judging from the picture, apparently you can only have 2 IP STBs per Elite right now.

It is stressed that this is only the initial, temporary method. This is not ideal and will be software upgraded later to eliminate the suck.


----------



## Fofer

I still don't get why this necessarily precludes the regular Premiere at intro. So you set up the IP-STB to take over one tuner or zero tuners. 

It just seems ridiculous that TiVo couldn't make it so that the IP-STB takes over a tuner "on demand" when you want to watch live TV via the IP-STB.

Why is it that nearly everything TiVo comes out with seems so half-baked and half-assed? The only consistent expectation I have come to rely on with this company is that if I'm waiting for a long while for something to come out, when it does, it has some ridiculous, disappointing limitation...


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Making a Premiere a 1-tuner DVR would kind of be a crappy DVR experience. It's fair to argue about why they won't have all their stuff together on Day 1 though. Wouldn't surprise me if there was MSO pressure to get it out sooner than it's ready. I guess they figure it's better to protect the Premiere DVR experience until they DO have their stuff together.


----------



## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Making a Premiere a 1-tuner DVR would kind of be a crappy DVR experience. It's fair to argue about why they won't have all their stuff together on Day 1 though. Wouldn't surprise me if there was MSO pressure to get it out sooner than it's ready. I guess they figure it's better to protect the Premiere DVR experience until they DO have their stuff together.


As an Elite/XL4 owner, I'm glad they are releasing it early as XL4 only. I will buy two IP set top boxes the day they are released.


----------



## Fofer

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Making a Premiere a 1-tuner DVR would kind of be a crappy DVR experience.


Okay, but let that be the customers' option. Or set up the IP-STB as a zero-tuner device, still allowing us access to our NP Lists on a second screen. Precluding the Premiere entirely "because they're working out the software" is just another lame excuse of a string of lame excuses from TiVo. I don't care about live TV, I never watch live TV, and I rarely am recording 2 things at once, either.


----------



## Saxion

Fofer said:


> Or set up the IP-STB as a zero-tuner device, still allowing us access to our NP Lists on a second screen.


Actually, I predict they will wind up doing exactly that for the launch. Otherwise, the marketing message ("Works on Premiere XL4, not on Premiere XL!") is just a mess. Imagine the support calls and product returns from confused customers (a CE company's worst nightmare). They had a hard enough time educating customers about the lack of analog tuners on the XL4...this would be just as bad. We shall see...still a lot of time between now and launch.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I have an Elite tuner to spare so I'm not personally worried about that, but being able to stream pre-recorded stuff from the other Tivo will be important for the WAF. So I might wait if it's not available yet. We don't have specific clarification on that one yet.

Apparently I am bored, so I used megazone's photo of the back of the IP STB to estimate its width by comparing it to the size of the coax input. It's not scientific since the picture was at a slight angle, but at it's widest point my horrible estimation is about 5.75".... Though most people probably could eyeball that.


----------



## sbiller

http://www.techofthehub.com/2012/05/tivo-stream-ip-set-top-box-closer-look.html


----------



## moyekj

sbiller said:


> From Megazone... Post to come later.


That's good, so looks like there *IS* option to not hog any tuners for live TV. If that's the case then limiting it to XL4 seems even more draconian.


----------



## Fofer

Right. But they couldn't make that an option at launch for the 2-tuner Premiere owners out there?

<sigh> TiVo...


----------



## morac

Fofer said:


> Right. But they couldn't make that an option at launch for the 2-tuner Premiere owners out there?
> 
> <sigh> TiVo...


They don't even need to really make it an option. Just set the Premiere to not share tuners and be done with it. Presumably streaming recorded shows would still work.

I'm still not sure why the Stream uses a method of triggering the host to record the program and then stream the recording in progress while the IP box permanently co-opts a tuner. Unless TiVo figures iPad/iPhone users are less likely to watch Live TV.


----------



## morac

Also since I haven't seen this posted yet, here's a demo video of the stream. It seems quite slow to start playing:

http://www.itvt.com/blog/tivo-ip-stb-stream-video-demo-cable-show-2012


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

morac said:


> Also since I haven't seen this posted yet, here's a demo video of the stream. It seems quite slow to start playing:
> 
> http://www.itvt.com/blog/tivo-ip-stb-stream-video-demo-cable-show-2012


I like how the video ends before the "demo" can even start. lol. 20 seconds and counting... Bad optics there.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

morac said:


> I'm still not sure why the Stream uses a method of triggering the host to record the program and then stream the recording in progress while the IP box permanently co-opts a tuner. Unless TiVo figures iPad/iPhone users are less likely to watch Live TV.


The best answer available, as far as Tivo has explained, is that the software simply won't be "there" yet to make the IP box as flexible as the Stream. But that's the goal with a later update.

If we've learned anything over the years, it's that their STB software development is, uh, not fast. While their app development (outsourced?) has actually been rather excellent.


----------



## bradleys

> The plan is to have dynamic tuner allocation in a future release


OK, taking this the next obvious step... Since the IP STB simply looks like another Premier on the network, wouldn't it then be possible to "dynamically allocate" tuners across all Premiers?

In other words if I have two Premiers can Premier 1 "dynamically" borrow a tuner from Premier 2?


----------



## Fofer

In a perfect world, TiVos would be smart enough to "dynamically" borrow tuners and cooperate on a collective To Do List... so there's never a missed recording.

Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> That's good, so looks like there *IS* option to not hog any tuners for live TV. If that's the case then limiting it to XL4 seems even more draconian.


But this picture looks like it's from the Q/Elite/XL4, not the IP STP. Since it shows options specific to a box with tuners. Like not never allowing a STB to use one of it's tuners. We need to see the menu for the IP STB.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

New article from Megazone:

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/23/more-information-on-the-tivo-stream-and-ip-stb/

The big news items are that the IP box will stream recorded content from any Tivo you have on day 1. Only the live TV streaming feature is limited to the XL4/Elite/Q at first.

And the Stream transcodes at a native resolution at roughly 2x (but the speed naturally varies based on the content.)


----------



## jcthorne

jmpage2 said:


> People can be as disappointed as they like, there are highly legitimate reasons that the XL4 is the only box supported initially.
> 
> The XL4 has a gigabit ethernet interface. Wi-fi will not be fast enough for reliable realtime streaming of HD content, users will get buffering, etc. Even over 100Mb wired ethernet it is questionable that the Premier could handle more than perhaps 1 stream at a time over ethernet without getting overwhelmed.
> 
> The XL4 has onboard MOCA and gigabit ethernet which will make the deployments far easier and far more reliable. It makes for an easier sales pitch to new customers as they can be sold a "bundle" that includes an XL4 as well as one or more streaming boxes for extra rooms in their home at a single bundle price, to better compete with whole home offerings from Dish and others.
> 
> It is highly likely that at a later time TiVo will come up with some kind of MOCA USB adapter, etc, for the Premiere and try to capture those customers.
> 
> As to pricing, I also took a survey for this box and the most popular pricing choice was almost certainly the $100-$150 choice with no subscription (which I selected). TiVo will have an incredibly hard time selling these at a $200-$250 price point when the typical "adjunct" box that people are looking at (ATV2, Roku, etc) sell for about $79-$99.
> 
> The only thing that this thread is missing at this point is the series-3 user who pops in and starts to ***** about why his/her 5 year old S3 won't support this stuff.


MOCA is not gigabit and neither is USB. The XL4/Premiere cannot fill a 100Mbit ethernet channel much less a gigabit. No, the ethernet port has NOTHING to do with this. Its all about Tivo's inability to master software creation that is required for tuner management.

And for the record, I am not complaining about Tivo not supporting some 5 year old box. I am complaining about Tivo not supporting thier CURRENT and ONLY box that supports OTA antenna connections. If the XL4 was available in an OTA version or supported it I would have just looked at this as the need to move on to the next gen hardware. Its not.

I do not see why the IP STB cannot use a tuner on a Premiere. Yes, it leaves that premiere with only one for recording. I am not the only user that has 2 Premieres in the household because the XL4 is cable only. My second premiere could give up a tuner just fine as long as the IP STB has access to all prerecorded shows on the network from ALL tivos, not just the one its taken a tuner from.


----------



## compnurd

What would make sense is if the IP-STB is on stand by lets say, that tuner should be freed up on the main box to record.


----------



## aaronwt

jcthorne said:


> MOCA is not gigabit and neither is USB. The XL4/Premiere cannot fill a 100Mbit ethernet channel much less a gigabit. No, the ethernet port has NOTHING to do with this. Its all about Tivo's inability to master software creation that is required for tuner management.
> 
> And for the record, I am not complaining about Tivo not supporting some 5 year old box. I am complaining about Tivo not supporting thier CURRENT and ONLY box that supports OTA antenna connections. If the XL4 was available in an OTA version or supported it I would have just looked at this as the need to move on to the next gen hardware. Its not.
> 
> I do not see why the IP STB cannot use a tuner on a Premiere. Yes, it leaves that premiere with only one for recording. I am not the only user that has 2 Premieres in the household because the XL4 is cable only. My second premiere could give up a tuner just fine as long as the IP STB has access to all prerecorded shows on the network from ALL tivos, not just the one its taken a tuner from.


The Elite, at least with the previous software, would hit peaks of around 130Mb/s. Which is not possible with a 100BT link. But when I hit those peaks I also had multiple streams going. With just one stream it won't come close to exceeding 100Mb/s. Although I still haven't checked the speeds with the new firmware.


----------



## aindik

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The big news items are that the IP box will stream recorded content from any Tivo you have on day 1. Only the live TV streaming feature is limited to the XL4/Elite/Q at first.


Any TiVo you have, as long as it's a Premiere or newer.

IOW, the IP-STB acts like a standard Premiere on the network. It can see the now playing lists on your other DVRs and stream like Premieres can do today.


----------



## moyekj

BigJimOutlaw said:


> New article from Megazone:
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/23/more-information-on-the-tivo-stream-and-ip-stb/
> 
> The big news items are that the IP box will stream recorded content from any Tivo you have on day 1. Only the live TV streaming feature is limited to the XL4/Elite/Q at first.
> 
> And the Stream transcodes at a native resolution at roughly 2x (but the speed naturally varies based on the content.)


 Also important to note is even for XL4 you don't HAVE to dedicate a tuner - it's a choice. Now that makes much more sense and makes this box more compelling. Of course when pricing is announced that will really determine how compelling. $150 or less without service fees is my threshold.


----------



## generaltso

If you have multiple TiVo Premieres, will you see a single unified My Shows list from the IP-STB? If they can do that for the IP-STB, there shouldn't be any reason they couldn't show a unified My Shows list from each of the Premieres as well, right?

Of course, it's possible that you'll have to manually choose which Premiere you want to connect to at any given time rather than show a unified list. That's probably more likely.


----------



## tlc

jcthorne said:


> I do not see why the IP STB cannot use a tuner on a Premiere. Yes, it leaves that premiere with only one for recording. I am not the only user that has 2 Premieres in the household because the XL4 is cable only. My second premiere could give up a tuner just fine as long as the IP STB has access to all prerecorded shows on the network from ALL tivos, not just the one its taken a tuner from.


Because too many customers would not think it through as well as you. They would allocate tuners on their only/primary/heavily-scheduled Premieres and be surprised when a large number of previously scheduled shows didn't get recorded. They have to look out for the less smart customers, too.


----------



## tlc

morac said:


> I'm still not sure why the Stream uses a method of triggering the host to record the program and then stream the recording in progress while the IP box permanently co-opts a tuner. Unless TiVo figures iPad/iPhone users are less likely to watch Live TV.


The streamer would use record in the off-loading case at least, because the process is unattended. So they can't pop up a dialog and say "This tuner is scheduled to record something. I'm going to steal it unless you say no." or "Can another STB use this tuner?"


----------



## bradleys

moyekj said:


> Also important to note is even for XL4 you don't HAVE to dedicate a tuner - it's a choice. Now that makes much more sense and makes this box more compelling. Of course when pricing is announced that will really determine how compelling. $150 or less without service fees is my threshold.


I am confused... I realize the photo "shows" an option not to dedicate a tuner - but are we assuming the IP STB would still be able to stream recorded content without one?

This very well may be the case - I am surely no expert on TiVo hardware / software - but I automatically assumed it would need that hard connnection to a parent TiVo in order to work.

Interesting


----------



## shaown

jcthorne said:


> I do not see why the IP STB cannot use a tuner on a Premiere. Yes, it leaves that premiere with only one for recording. I am not the only user that has 2 Premieres in the household because the XL4 is cable only. My second premiere could give up a tuner just fine as long as the IP STB has access to all prerecorded shows on the network from ALL tivos, not just the one its taken a tuner from.


Ditto - except I have 3 Premieres stacked up


----------



## slowbiscuit

bradleys said:


> I am confused... I realize the photo "shows" an option not to dedicate a tuner - but are we assuming the IP STB would still be able to stream recorded content without one?


Of course - the tuner allocation screen is only for live TV, I'm sure it could stream recordings from anywhere. That's just a simple IP connection to whatever Tivo you want to stream them from.


----------



## tlc

If you walk away from a Tivo while in the menus, the Tivo eventually jumps to Live TV to avoid screen burn-in. I wonder what a STB with a non-permanently-allocated tuner will do.


----------



## Fofer

tlc said:


> Because too many customers would not think it through as well as you. They would allocate tuners on their only/primary/heavily-scheduled Premieres and be surprised when a large number of previously scheduled shows didn't get recorded. They have to look out for the less smart customers, too.


Why can't the IP-STB only use the tuner when the customer is trying to watch live video on the TV screen that's connected to the IP-STB? Why must it be always "dedicated?"


----------



## tlc

Fofer said:


> Why can't the IP-STB only use the tuner when the customer is trying to watch live video on the TV screen that's connected to the IP-STB? Why must it be always "dedicated?"


The articles all say that's the plan eventually.


----------



## bradleys

Fofer said:


> Why can't the IP-STB only use the tuner when the customer is trying to watch live video on the TV screen that's connected to the IP-STB? Why must it be always "dedicated?"


That is the plan at which time they will open this device up to regular Premiers...



> The plan is to have dynamic tuner allocation in a future release


I still wonder if this could also give us cooperative tuners across TiVo's.


----------



## fyodor

Is there any indication of whether you can remotely schedule recordings from the IP-STB? It sounds like you can't, given that it hasn't been mentioned.


----------



## jmpage2

morac said:


> Also since I haven't seen this posted yet, here's a demo video of the stream. It seems quite slow to start playing:
> 
> http://www.itvt.com/blog/tivo-ip-stb-stream-video-demo-cable-show-2012


They don't even show playback start.

Fail.


----------



## Fofer

fyodor said:


> Is there any indication of whether you can remotely schedule recordings from the IP-STB?


If it's "linked" (like the elite units will be at intro) then yes.


----------



## jmpage2

jcthorne said:


> MOCA is not gigabit and neither is USB. The XL4/Premiere cannot fill a 100Mbit ethernet channel much less a gigabit. No, the ethernet port has NOTHING to do with this. Its all about Tivo's inability to master software creation that is required for tuner management.
> 
> And for the record, I am not complaining about Tivo not supporting some 5 year old box. I am complaining about Tivo not supporting thier CURRENT and ONLY box that supports OTA antenna connections. If the XL4 was available in an OTA version or supported it I would have just looked at this as the need to move on to the next gen hardware. Its not.
> 
> I do not see why the IP STB cannot use a tuner on a Premiere. Yes, it leaves that premiere with only one for recording. I am not the only user that has 2 Premieres in the household because the XL4 is cable only. My second premiere could give up a tuner just fine as long as the IP STB has access to all prerecorded shows on the network from ALL tivos, not just the one its taken a tuner from.


I would imagine that TiVo will eliminate OTA tuners from all of their future boxes, if for no other reason than cutting costs on a heavily subsidized piece of hardware.

It makes perfect sense for TiVo to delay this for the Premiere until tuners can be shared "dynamically". Many customers would be upset/confused if their recordings were affected because they dedicated a tuner and were down to one tuner on their box.

Another thing to consider, is that, people should be happy TiVo is patching older boxes (yes, Premiere is 2 yrs old now) at all. Many manufacturers would just say "tough, buy a new box".


----------



## Fofer

jmpage2 said:


> Another thing to consider, is that, people should be happy TiVo is patching older boxes (yes, Premiere is 2 yrs old now) at all. Many manufacturers would just say "tough, buy a new box".


they already did that to me with my $800 TiVo S3.


----------



## jmpage2

Fofer said:


> they already did that to me with my $800 TiVo S3.


Amazing, isn't it, when companies try to get you to buy something new? Apple has made an art form out of it.


----------



## Fofer

Not after 2 years. (And when Apple does it, it's because the new one is actually _better._)


----------



## aindik

Fofer said:


> Not after 2 years.


How's your iPad 1?


----------



## tlc

A friend with Premieres tells me that they can stream shows while they are being recorded -- even up to the end of the buffer, "almost live". Since the STB is just Premiere streaming, I _imagine_ they can do that too.

So, if you're willing to start a recording on the Premiere (by walking to that room or using an iOS app), you can _probably_ watch a show almost-live on STB. *[THAT'S JUST A THEORY.]* It wouldn't be a Live TV experience though because you can't change the channel.

It's interesting to note that you can start a recording on a Premiere with an iPad, but not with another Premiere. More control from the third party device.


----------



## Fofer

aindik said:


> How's your iPad 1?


Still works with every app out there, with the exception of two (both based on Adobe AIR.) I upgraded to the 3 because it has a better screen, more memory, and a camera. In other words, the new one is actually better, and the old one isn't artificially excluded from functionality because the company behind it got lazy or greedy.

This isn't the same as with the Series 3 TiVo that couldn't enjoy interactive two-way control with the iPad app when it came out, or how Rhapsody stopped working with it, or how any future development was clearly directed at the cheaper Premiere line.

Comparing Apple to TiVo in this context is very silly.


----------



## aindik

Fofer said:


> Still works with every app out there, with the exception of two (both based on Adobe AIR.)


Can't run iPhoto either.



Fofer said:


> I upgraded to the 3 because it has a better screen, more memory, and a camera.


Why would you need more memory?



Fofer said:


> In other words, the new one is actually better, and the old one isn't artificially excluded from functionality because the company behind it got lazy or greedy.


I think most TiVo generations have been better than previous generations. The Series 3/HD to the Premiere might be the exception. But the 2 is better than the 1, the 3 better than the 2, and the XL4 better than the Premiere. I would imagine the XL4 is better than the Series 3 as well.



Fofer said:


> This isn't the same as with the Series 3 TiVo that couldn't enjoy interactive two-way control with the iPad app when it came out, or how Rhapsody stopped working with it, or how any future development was clearly directed at the cheaper Premiere line.
> 
> Comparing Apple to TiVo in this context is very silly.


iOS 5 is clearly geared toward the iPhone 4s and the iPad 2 and 3. It kind of drags on anything older than that.


----------



## moyekj

bradleys said:


> I am confused... I realize the photo "shows" an option not to dedicate a tuner - but are we assuming the IP STB would still be able to stream recorded content without one?
> 
> This very well may be the case - I am surely no expert on TiVo hardware / software - but I automatically assumed it would need that hard connnection to a parent TiVo in order to work.
> 
> Interesting


 It works just like MRS currently works between 2 Premieres. 1 unit finds the other over the network and shows up in your My Shows page with DVR name. You can browse that DVR My Shows and choose a recording to play back, including recordings that are currently still recording. i.e. The connection between a TiVo and this thin client unit is all via ethernet, hence why it's called IP-STB. If you've ever used MRV it's very similar except instead of copying a show over you are streaming it.


----------



## steve614

aindik said:


> Why would you need more memory?


Let me interject here.
Is this a serious question? 

You can never have enough memory.


----------



## aindik

steve614 said:


> Let me interject here.
> Is this a serious question?
> 
> You can never have enough memory.


It's a rhetorical question.


----------



## Fofer

aindik said:


> Why would you need more memory?


Switching between apps and Safari pages is faster.



aindik said:


> I think most TiVo generations have been better than previous generations. The Series 3/HD to the Premiere might be the exception.


Right but you're comparing two totally different devices which have different contexts. The iPad is a platform with lots of use cases, always changing, with hundreds of thousands of apps. It is also a brand new category and is rapidly evolving.

The TiVo is a DVR and what I am doing with it today hasn't changed one iota from what I was doing with it 10 years ago: time-shifting broadcast and cable TV shows. (The only difference is that I'm doing a lot less of it now.) Anything above and beyond that on this device sucks. Always has, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.


----------



## wmcbrine

jmpage2 said:


> I would imagine that TiVo will eliminate OTA tuners from all of their future boxes, if for no other reason than cutting costs on a heavily subsidized piece of hardware.


Geez, I wouldn't. What a horrible prospect. I could see them dropping analog, because analog is dead. But digital OTA is very much alive, and being promoted by TiVo even now: http://www.tivo.com/products/source/antenna/index.html


----------



## innocentfreak

wmcbrine said:


> Geez, I wouldn't. What a horrible prospect. I could see them dropping analog, because analog is dead. But digital OTA is very much alive, and being promoted by TiVo even now: http://www.tivo.com/products/source/antenna/index.html


Megazone covers it in his article. The problem is OTA tuners aren't dropping in cost like Qam tuners. He doesn't say they are going away but me limited to specific models in the future.

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/23/more-tivo-tidbits-from-the-cable-show/


> TiVo will continue to support ATSC in future products, in some way, shape or form. I asked about this because the TiVo Premiere XL4 is a QAM only product, and knowing how hardware development and refresh cycles work I fully expect the Premiere and Premiere XL to be refreshed at some point and migrate to a shared design with the XL4. It is much more cost effective to produce one board and simply populate it differently for different products. The Premiere and Premiere XL will clearly be updated to add MoCA at some point, and it makes sense to go to a shared design. But that had implications for ATSC, hence my query.
> 
> TiVo cant say, probably because at this point they honestly dont know, what form an ATSC-supporting product might take, but they know there is a solid niche of ATSC users. Clearly the majority of their business comes from cable subscribers, but they do not plan to abandon ATSC users. There are issues with supporting ATSC however. ATSC tuners are more expensive than QAM tuners, and arent available in the same densities. Were seeing single QAM tuner chips with six QAM tuners, even fully integrated SoCs with six, or more, integrated QAM tuners  but not ATSC.
> 
> This makes it harder, and more costly, to design and build a product with ATSC support. And the more ATSC tuners you include the higher the cost and complexity. And there are often knock-on costs  additional RAM, ancillary chips, etc. Add to that the effects of economies of scale. There are more QAM-enabled products than ATSC, that means there is more demand for QAM chips. The greater demand drives higher production levels of QAM chips, and the per-unit costs keeps coming down. ATSC components arent following the same decline, but remaining at higher price points.
> 
> And thats why we dont have an ATSC XL4, and probably wont see one. And also why the bulk of products going forward are likely to be QAM-only, with specific SKUs to address the ATSC market niche.


----------



## aindik

You don't need 4 ATSC tuners. The average antenna user has, what, 10 ATSC channels? Maybe less.


----------



## innocentfreak

aindik said:


> You don't need 4 ATSC tuners. The average antenna user has, what, 10 ATSC channels? Maybe less.


The ATSC channels tend not to repeat though compared to cable channels. My tuner conflicts stem more from locals than cable cables.


----------



## jmpage2

aindik said:


> You don't need 4 ATSC tuners. The average antenna user has, what, 10 ATSC channels? Maybe less.


You clearly don't hang out at the Tivo Community Forums enough, where there are numerous users with multiple quad tuner TiVos that still never seem to have enough tuners to record all of the crap that they watch.


----------



## fyodor

aindik said:


> You don't need 4 ATSC tuners. The average antenna user has, what, 10 ATSC channels? Maybe less.


I use cable but there have been times that I've been recording 4 local channels at once and even more when I've recorded 3.


----------



## Dan203

aindik said:


> It currently takes my computer over 2 hours to download a 1 hour HD show from my TiVoHD, plus another 45 minutes to transcode it into a format my iPad can see. I'd love to know how long XL4 + Stream will take to get a recording to my iPad.


The Premiere units are much faster at transferring content. They use a combination of faster hardware and a new TS based file format that makes them 4+ times faster at TiVoToGo/MRV then the TiVoHD.

As for transcoding... This little box will have a chip that is specifically designed for video encoding which is why it can do that part faster then your PC. The CPU in your PC is designed to be general purpose and as such is not really good at doing anything specific. However if you design a chip specifically for video encoding it will be significantly more efficient and can do it much faster then any general purpose CPU. We're starting to see this carry over a bit in the PC space with new GPU based encoders. GPUs aren't specifically designed for video encoding either, but there massively parallel nature make them much better suited to the task and can result in speed increases of 2-5x over the same encode done on a CPU.

Dan


----------



## Fofer

My guess: a one hour show will take 30 minutes to transfer to an iPad. (IE: transcode+transfer will be 2x realtime.)

Relatively speaking, knowing the previous reality, that's impressive, but it's still long enough of a time that it's not something I'll be doing often "on demand" for quick on-the-go video entertainment.

Instead I will work hard to try and get streaming working externally (via VPN or whatever) ... and/or will set up transfers to work overnight before I go on a trip.

Let's HOPE TiVo has coded this correctly and elegantly to support _queuing_ of multiple transfers. If not.. well then... I'd label this yet another #tivofail.


----------



## Dan203

wmcbrine said:


> Geez, I wouldn't. What a horrible prospect. I could see them dropping analog, because analog is dead. But digital OTA is very much alive, and being promoted by TiVo even now: http://www.tivo.com/products/source/antenna/index.html


My guess is they will release some sort of external tuner box for ATSC. Every TiVo has two USB 2.0 ports and unless you're using both an old 802.11g adapter AND a slide remote one of them should be open. And since ATSC has a max of 19.2Mbps per station, and actually uses less in most cases, there is plenty of bandwidth on a single USB 2.0 port to handle four ATSC streams at once. (they could even do 6 if they wanted to)

Dan


----------



## Dan203

Fofer said:


> Let's HOPE TiVo has coded this correctly and elegantly to support _queuing_ of multiple transfers. If not.. well then... I'd label this yet another #tivofail.


Yeah if the side loading doesn't support some sort of queue then it'll be a big fail. Also if TiVo doesn't have a built in player app with standard trick play controls it will also be a big fail, because scrubbing via the standard iOS video player is a huge PITA and would be a nightmare to try and use to skip commercials.

Dan


----------



## Fofer

On the other hand, the standard iOS video player *should* support AirPlay to an AppleTV, which could mean that if you've got these ingredients, you wouldn't need the IP-STB to be able to watch this content on a 2nd TV in your home.

(This is assuming TiVo doesn't actively block AirPlay)

Of course, fullscreen AirPlay Mirroring should also accomplish the same trick. And if they allow THAT to work, while also introducing their own built-in player app with standard trick play controls... well, then, that could end up being the best of all worlds.

Why I am just not optimistic that TiVo won't end up screwing this up?


----------



## aindik

Dan203 said:


> Yeah if the side loading doesn't support some sort of queue then it'll be a big fail. Also if TiVo doesn't have a built in player app with standard trick play controls it will also be a big fail, because scrubbing via the standard iOS video player is a huge PITA and would be a nightmare to try and use to skip commercials.
> 
> Dan


Seriously. What is the aversion in app/software/web video design to rewind and fast forward?


----------



## Dan203

aindik said:


> Seriously. What is the aversion in app/software/web video design to rewind and fast forward?


Because it's hard, especially with H.264. FF isn't that hard to accomplish given enough horse power, but RW is really tricky. You can only display an H.264 frame if you first jump to a safe entry point (IDR or I frame with SEI flag) that is before the frame you want, and then start decoding forward until you reach the frame you actually want. (you can skip B frames, but it's still slow) In MPEG-2 you can sort of fake it because there is typically an I frame every 1/2 second or so so your frame is never that far from an entry point. However with H.264 there can be10+ seconds between entry points which makes it much more difficult. Not to mention that the muxing itself is designed to be read start to finish as well so when you're seeking backwards to look for the entry points you're really just guessing where they could be.

In fact TiVo told me once that on the TiVo itself they use an of index of where the entry points are so that they can make their RW experience better. They build this index as the file is being recorded. I'm not sure how this transcoder box is going to work, but unless it generates a similar index or uses a static pattern of IDR frames for encoding I don't know that TiVo will be able to offer a reliable RW experience.

Now skipping via instant replay or 30 second skip is relatively easy so at the very least they should be able to provide that.

Dan


----------



## steve614

aindik said:


> You don't need 4 ATSC tuners. The average antenna user has, what, 10 ATSC channels? Maybe less.


You're thinking back to when OTA was analog. Things changed when OTA went digital.
Right now, there are 66 channels in my guide (that doesn't include the channels I have unchecked in the channel list), although there are only 12 channels that I actually record from.
And yes, OTA users need 4 tuners. The way the networks add 1 minute to some shows (Grey's Anatomy), and have other shows end seconds past the time slot (Community, Modern Family), I sometimes need 4 tuners if I want all of my recordings in their entirety.



jmpage2 said:


> You clearly don't hang out at the Tivo Community Forums enough, where there are numerous users with multiple quad tuner TiVos that still never seem to have enough tuners to record all of the crap that they watch.


----------



## jkudlacz

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Are you confusing the Premiere with the Virgin media box?


You are correct, I guess I read the Press release about the Virgin Box somewhere.


----------



## shwru980r

steve614 said:


> You're thinking back to when OTA was analog. Things changed when OTA went digital.
> Right now, there are 66 channels in my guide (that doesn't include the channels I have unchecked in the channel list), although there are only 12 channels that I actually record from.
> And yes, OTA users need 4 tuners. The way the networks add 1 minute to some shows (Grey's Anatomy), and have other shows end seconds past the time slot (Community, Modern Family), I sometimes need 4 tuners if I want all of my recordings in their entirety.


But with OTA you don't need cable cards so no additional monthly fees and there is no copy protection so MRV works. The older S3/HD boxes have better OTA reception than the premiere and you can buy 2 S3/HDs with lifetime service much cheaper than the XL4. I'd rather have the redundancy of two dual tuner boxes given that I have more than one TV anyway.


----------



## steve614

shwru980r said:


> But with OTA you don't need cable cards so no additional monthly fees and there is no copy protection so MRV works. The older S3/HD boxes have better OTA reception than the premiere and you can buy 2 S3/HDs with lifetime service much cheaper than the XL4. I'd rather have the redundancy of two dual tuner boxes given that I have more than one TV anyway.


I agree (with exception*). I am content with my 2 TivoHD's and like that the failure of one box won't affect the other.
But, thinking as someone that is just getting into DVRs, a Tivo with 4 OTA tuners with IP STBs on other TVs could be mighty appealing.

* I have an unsubscribed Tivo Premiere, and it tunes all my OTA channels as good as my Tivo HD does. The signal strength meter does report a lower signal strength, but there is no difference in reception.


----------



## jmpage2

steve614 said:


> I agree. I am content with my 2 TivoHD's and like that the failure of one box won't affect the other.
> But, thinking as someone that is just getting into DVRs, a Tivo with 4 OTA tuners with IP STBs on other TVs could be mighty appealing.


Even for people who have owned TiVos for some time (like me), the appeal is for the four tuner single box solution.

I don't want two power sucking boxes wasting electrons. I don't want to have to mentally calculate overlaps between season passes on two boxes.

I just want one box in the home that "records TV" and thats what the XL4 is shaping up to be. Record on the XL4 and watch anywhere.


----------



## mattack

Fofer said:


> Not after 2 years. (And when Apple does it, it's because the new one is actually _better._)


4 tuners isn't better?

(I say this as someone who never saw any good reason to "upgrade" from S1 to S2, and now only the Elite and these two boxes [esp easy sideloading, and I don't even have an iPad yet] are what are somewhat compelling me to eventually upgrade from S3/TivoHD.)


----------



## Fofer

mattack said:


> 4 tuners isn't better?


Not for me, as they come at a huge cost differential, and are completely unnecessary to me. I rarely, if ever have recording conflicts with the 2 tuners I already have,


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

An additional IP STB clarification from Megazone, which adds "blah" back into the initial release:

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/23/more-information-on-the-tivo-stream-and-ip-stb/#comments

"Note that you *MUST* have an XL4 to use the IP STB at launch. Even though it can access content from the Premiere & Premiere XL via MRS it *requires* an XL4 as setup is handled by 'pairing' with the parent DVR - which is only XL4 at launch. Without an XL4 you can't setup the IP STB. This will change in a future update when they added dynamic tuner allocation and add support for the full Premiere family."

So the IP box is still only for XL4 owners at first, even though it'll stream from any other Premiere too.


----------



## moyekj

BigJimOutlaw said:


> An additional IP STB clarification from Megazone, which adds "blah" back into the initial release:
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2012/05/23/more-information-on-the-tivo-stream-and-ip-stb/#comments
> 
> "Note that you *MUST* have an XL4 to use the IP STB at launch. Even though it can access content from the Premiere & Premiere XL via MRS it *requires* an XL4 as setup is handled by 'pairing' with the parent DVR - which is only XL4 at launch. Without an XL4 you can't setup the IP STB. This will change in a future update when they added dynamic tuner allocation and add support for the full Premiere family."
> 
> So the IP box is still only for XL4 owners at first, even though it'll stream from any other Premiere too.


 Confoundedly dumb. :down:


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## Dan203

Hopefully by the time it hits retail they will change it so the IP box can stream recordings from any Premiere. Releasing a box that can only work with Elite/XL4 units and requires permanently requisitioning a tuner even though you may not watch live TV is going to make this a huge flop. They're better off delaying the release until they get it working right, then they are releasing some half baked prototype right now and turning people off forever.

Dan


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## BigJimOutlaw

I can understand mandating an XL4 for Live TV streaming until they get the software up to speed. Artificially blocking out everybody else until then will just turn the community sour to it. Already has.

Open the gates and just call it a streamer with Live TV coming soon to Premiere/XL. It's a half working product anyway. At least that way it could be enjoyed by more people sooner who have been asking for a streaming box for _years._

I also hope they reconsider.


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## magnus

jmpage2 said:


> Another thing to consider, is that, people should be happy TiVo is patching older boxes (yes, Premiere is 2 yrs old now) at all. Many manufacturers would just say "tough, buy a new box".


I can tell you that I would never buy another box from TiVo if that were the case. Under your way of thinking the box would have to work perfectly from the start. My experience with TiVo has been that they release it not working perfectly or not having all the promised features and then add them later. I'd want everything to work up front and would need for them to prove it's working as advertised before purchasing from them if this were the case.


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## Fofer

moyekj said:


> Confoundedly dumb. :down:


Indeed. On top of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they attach a monthly subscription fee to it. It's the way they do things. :down:


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## aaronwt

Fofer said:


> Indeed. On top of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they attach a monthly subscription fee to it. It's the way they do things. :down:


A monthly fee makes the most sense. Otherwise how do they make up the lost income?

Right now a person would need to get two TiVos to watch in two rooms. If you replace that scenario with one TiVo and one IP STB(with no monthly fee) that is a huge difference in the amount of money that TiVo would be bringing in.

I have no issue with a monthly fee as long as it's only $4 or $5 and the cost of the box is not excessive. I'll be glad to pay that monthly fee forever. Since each cable card costs me $4 a month on FiOS. And each IP STB eliminates a cable card. A $5 a monthly fee only has me a paying $1 more a month. It would take many many years to break even using a lifetime box.

A $4 or $5 a month charge for the IP STB is like pocket change. It would be a way for TiVo to have recurring income indefinitely.

But only time will tell what TiVo decides to charge for the IP STB.


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## SullyND

moyekj said:


> Confoundedly dumb. :down:


Just as the XL4/Elite is essentially a MSO device brought retail, I see the IPSTB being the same thing. For a cable co requiring a Q makes sense, and "upgrading" a customer to a Q is likely part of the plan of offering such a device. The retail implications of such a senario were likely an afterthought.


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## Fofer

Dan203 said:


> Yeah if the side loading doesn't support some sort of queue then it'll be a big fail.


If it takes less time, overall, for me to get a show off Usenet/BitTorrent (with commercials already excised) than it is to transfer them from my own TiVo then it'll be a non-starter for me. Not to mention, the CC flags will render much of this distinction moot.

I'm really only interested in this unit if I can get it to STREAM, in my LAN and well as outside my LAN.


----------



## tlc

Fofer said:


> Indeed. On top of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they attach a monthly subscription fee to it. It's the way they do things. :down:


That would be a deal breaker for me. In my mind at least, the monthly Tivo fee is justified by the ongoing cost of guide data. (Although, clearly a cut is to pay off the subsidized Tivo as well.) I have been curious about them undercutting their income stream, but I'm not paying a monthly fee (or a comparable lifetime fee) for either of these boxes. They need to be priced like consumer electronics. Or they need to open the APIs (there is a new SDK coming) to let people put MRS clients into Plex, Boxee, XBMC, GoogleTV, AppleTV, etc.

This does make pricing problematic. Can they sell the STB for $100 and make a profit? Any more and it's more than a (subsidized) Tivo. And will a MSO customer be able to mix retail purchased STBs and Tivos with their provider's rental boxes (which could cut into the provider's income)?



SullyND said:


> Just as the XL4/Elite is essentially a MSO device brought retail, I see the IPSTB being the same thing. For a cable co requiring a Q makes sense, and "upgrading" a customer to a Q is likely part of the plan of offering such a device. The retail implications of such a senario were likely an afterthought.


Yeah. Spot on.

I've given too much thought to a CE device that's not out yet. Time to wait and see. Given what's leaked about the Series 5 already, I may just stick with my HDs until then.


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## sbiller

tlc said:


> This does make pricing problematic. Can they sell the STB for $100 and make a profit? Any more and it's more than a (subsidized) Tivo. And will a MSO customer be able to mix retail purchased STBs and Tivos with their provider's rental boxes (which could cut into the provider's income)?


There's a reason they changed the price of the base Premiere to $149. The Stream and IP-STB will be priced lower than $149.

https://www3.tivo.com/store/home.do


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## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> A monthly fee makes the most sense. Otherwise how do they make up the lost income?
> 
> Right now a person would need to get two TiVos to watch in two rooms. If you replace that scenario with one TiVo and one IP STB(with no monthly fee) that is a huge difference in the amount of money that TiVo would be bringing in.
> 
> I have no issue with a monthly fee as long as it's only $4 or $5 and the cost of the box is not excessive. I'll be glad to pay that monthly fee forever. Since each cable card costs me $4 a month on FiOS. And each IP STB eliminates a cable card. A $5 a monthly fee only has me a paying $1 more a month. It would take many many years to break even using a lifetime box.
> 
> A $4 or $5 a month charge for the IP STB is like pocket change. It would be a way for TiVo to have recurring income indefinitely.
> 
> But only time will tell what TiVo decides to charge for the IP STB.


 Any kind of monthly fee would certainly kill the deal for me as well even if they give away the hardware for free.
By the sound of it unfortunately TiVo is going to release another half-baked product to the market just as happened with the Premiere launch. I seriously hope that is not going to be the case.


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## jmpage2

magnus said:


> I can tell you that I would never buy another box from TiVo if that were the case. Under your way of thinking the box would have to work perfectly from the start. My experience with TiVo has been that they release it not working perfectly or not having all the promised features and then add them later. I'd want everything to work up front and would need for them to prove it's working as advertised before purchasing from them if this were the case.


My way of thinking? Don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that products have a defined lifecycle. The product is developed, it is released (GA) and then the product is maintained until it is end of life.

Adding features during the maintenance cycle is commendable on TiVos part, because it is not the norm.... which is why it is particularly irritating to see people asking for new features on S3 (and up until recently S2) because it is "technically feasible". Even Apple, who "loves" their customers, dropped support for the iPhone 1 after only 3 years and in all likelihood will drop support for the 3 year old 3G and 3GS very soon for iOS 6.

As I said, most manufacturers after 2 years would say "get the new one". You can go and buy a $50K BMW and when they come out with an all new nav system just one year later it's "so sad too bad" even though there's no TECHNICAL reason they couldn't offer some kind of swap out or upgrade.

On the other hand, TiVo also has a long storied history of over promising and over delivering... something Apple has not had a problem with.


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## Fofer

The Premiere itself isn't even finished yet, the HDUI _still_ isn't complete. TiVo's development cycle is a joke.

As far as it being the "One box?" Um, not exactly... I have 6 other set top boxes from various other manufacturers, and TiVo's online offerings are the most paltry of them all.


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## jmpage2

No argument there.


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## NYHeel

aaronwt said:


> A monthly fee makes the most sense. Otherwise how do they make up the lost income?
> 
> Right now a person would need to get two TiVos to watch in two rooms. If you replace that scenario with one TiVo and one IP STB(with no monthly fee) that is a huge difference in the amount of money that TiVo would be bringing in.
> 
> I have no issue with a monthly fee as long as it's only $4 or $5 and the cost of the box is not excessive. I'll be glad to pay that monthly fee forever. Since each cable card costs me $4 a month on FiOS. And each IP STB eliminates a cable card. A $5 a monthly fee only has me a paying $1 more a month. It would take many many years to break even using a lifetime box.
> 
> A $4 or $5 a month charge for the IP STB is like pocket change. It would be a way for TiVo to have recurring income indefinitely.
> 
> But only time will tell what TiVo decides to charge for the IP STB.


A monthly fee would be a terrible idea and you're not understand what Tivo is trying to accomplish here. It's not about how much revenue they would lose to existing customers, it's about bringing in new customers and doing what it needs to do to compete and survive.

Cable/sat companies are now offering whole home solutions that don't require a full blown DVR at every TV. If Tivo doesn't offer this then they won't exist for very long. The marketplace demands that Tivo offer this because the cable/sat DVRs have it. Also, it will help bring in new customers if the price is right.

Now, if they want to give the box away for free then I can see charging $5-$7 a month. But if they're going to charge $100-150, I don't see how they can get away with charging monthly. There's no longer any advantage over the cable company solution. They have no upfront cost and a monthly fee for the DVR and a smaller one for the cable box (extender). So Tivo can go either upfront cost with no monthly fee or no upfront cost with a monthly fee. I can't see how they can realistically charge both.


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## slowbiscuit

sbiller said:


> There's a reason they changed the price of the base Premiere to $149. The Stream and IP-STB will be priced lower than $149.
> 
> https://www3.tivo.com/store/home.do


This is pure speculation on your part.


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## aindik

slowbiscuit said:


> This is pure speculation on your part.


Right. You can't compare the price of a box with a monthly fee to the price of a box without one.


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## rainwater

Dan203 said:


> Hopefully by the time it hits retail they will change it so the IP box can stream recordings from any Premiere.


Maybe I am reading that wrong but it will stream from any Premiere using MRS. But you will not be able to "pair" it to a regular Premiere meaning it will not mirror the Premiere. So basically it will work through MRS just like MRS works now from another Premiere by browsing any Premiere's on the network.


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## aindik

rainwater said:


> Maybe I am reading that wrong but it will stream from any Premiere using MRS. But you will not be able to "pair" it to a regular Premiere meaning it will not mirror the Premiere. So basically it will work through MRS just like MRS works now from another Premiere by browsing any Premiere's on the network.


But now we're reading that it won't work at all unless it's paired with something, and you can only pair it to an XL4.

IOW, you have to have an XL4 to pair it with. But once you pair it to an XL4, you can also stream to it from a Premiere if you also have one of those.

I wonder what happens if you pair it to an XL4 but the power to the XL4 is off and the power to the Premiere and the IP-STB are on. (IOW, can you just pair it to a friend's XL4 and then stream to it from a Premiere?).


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## Fofer

rainwater said:


> Maybe I am reading that wrong but it will stream from any Premiere using MRS. But you will not be able to "pair" it to a regular Premiere meaning it will not mirror the Premiere. So basically it will work through MRS just like MRS works now from another Premiere by browsing any Premiere's on the network.


No, this new information seems to imply that it won't even stream from a regular Premiere, because you won't be able to set it up.

It's basically yet another example of TiVo coming out with a product two years late, that's still half-baked, and will remain half-baked, for even more time.


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## mbalgeman

My guess is that the pairing is how the boxes get the correct MAK. So that's why you need to pair in order to stream at all.

It's not how I would prioritize things as a *retail *customer, but I'm sure that the MSO customers are pushing Live TV as a requirement to deploy. And I'm sure that the MSO are willing to live with the requirement of XL4 only as they can roll those out to their customers in their BETA test who want the whole home solution...


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## swerver

Will the ip box do netflix/rhapsody/on demand/amazon/music from local network streaming?

Does it require ethernet? Is moca an option, without buying separate adapters? I'd get one of these for my bedroom but don't have ethernet there. Might have to look into that...


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## BigJimOutlaw

To be clear: The XL4 is mandatory as a condition of the IP box's setup. But once it's set up, it can stream from any Premiere on the network (but does live TV only from the XL4.)

Megazone's articles are great and detailed. Read them if you haven't.


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## aindik

BigJimOutlaw said:


> To be clear: The XL4 is mandatory as a condition of the IP box's setup. But once it's set up, it can stream from any Premiere on the network (but do live TV on from the XL4.)
> 
> Megazone's articles are great and detailed. Read them if you haven't.


Does the XL4 need to be present (powered on, on the network) in order to stream from a Premiere?


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## aaronwt

NYHeel said:


> A monthly fee would be a terrible idea and you're not understand what Tivo is trying to accomplish here. It's not about how much revenue they would lose to existing customers, it's about bringing in new customers and doing what it needs to do to compete and survive.
> 
> Cable/sat companies are now offering whole home solutions that don't require a full blown DVR at every TV. If Tivo doesn't offer this then they won't exist for very long. The marketplace demands that Tivo offer this because the cable/sat DVRs have it. Also, it will help bring in new customers if the price is right.
> 
> Now, if they want to give the box away for free then I can see charging $5-$7 a month. But if they're going to charge $100-150, I don't see how they can get away with charging monthly. There's no longer any advantage over the cable company solution. They have no upfront cost and a monthly fee for the DVR and a smaller one for the cable box (extender). So Tivo can go either upfront cost with no monthly fee or no upfront cost with a monthly fee. I can't see how they can realistically charge both.


TiVos income growth and subscriber growth is coming from the cable companies now. The retail market for TiVo was still shrinking with their last quaterly results. With the IP STB for cable comapnies there will be a monthly rental fee involved. Although it would most likely be part of a bundle.

of course I would rather have no monthly fee, but I also would have no problem with a $4 or $5 fee. Either way, TiVo will be seeing less money from me in the long run with the IP STB in the mix. Which is fine by me. I will save in cable card costs, TiVo hardware costs, as well as using less electricity which will lower my electric bill by a few dollars each month.(assuming the IP STB use much less power than the 21 watts an Elite/ XL4 uses or the 24 watts a Premiere/XL uses.) I've already seen a decrease in my monthly electric bill when I switched out four, two tuner premieres, for two Elites.


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## sbiller

slowbiscuit said:


> This is pure speculation on your part.


Very true. I should have noted that its my guess at the price point. I don't believe that TiVo will subsidize the boxes but any price higher than the entry level Premiere even with the monthly fee will IMHO be a retail failure. Of course they could choose to sell it lower and require a monthly fee which is certainly an option. Maybe $99 plus a $4.95 monthly fee.


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## BigJimOutlaw

aindik said:


> Does the XL4 need to be present (powered on, on the network) in order to stream from a Premiere?


At least so far detail haven't been this specific. Don't know.


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## BigJimOutlaw

Tivo has fairly small retail reach as it is. Their retail numbers are only going down no matter what. This impending confusion over subsidized vs. unsubsidized retail hardware is small beans and mostly irrelevant to them. Compared to their MSO partners, nobody's buying the retail IP box. So if there are retail pricing inconsistencies, they're not all that worried about it (so neither should we). Their eyes are on MSO's now and going forward.

IMO.


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## aindik

BigJimOutlaw said:


> At least so far detail haven't been this specific. Don't know.


Thought about it some more and realized it doesn't matter. I'm assuming the XL4 and the Premieres will have to have the same MAK, which makes "borrowing" your friend's XL4 for setup purposes impossible.


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## sbiller

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Tivo has fairly small retail reach as it is. Their retail numbers are only going down no matter what. This impending confusion over subsidized vs. unsubsidized retail hardware is small beans and mostly irrelevant to them. Compared to their MSO partners, nobody's buying the retail IP box. So if there are retail pricing inconsistencies, they're not all that worried about it (so neither should we). Their eyes are on MSO's now and going forward.
> 
> IMO.


If you include retail subscribers associated with Comcast, Cox, and future retail oriented deals I would agree with you.

As of Jan 31, 2012 retail contributes 85.8% of TiVo Service Revenues. One retail subscriber is worth approximately 4 times an MSO subscriber from a revenue perspective.

TiVo has recognized that consumers are looking for VOD from their service provider as part of the equation in attracting retail customers. Deals like they have with Comcast are very much part of the equation for TiVo's success going forward.

The reason you see the TiVo Stream and IP STB coming to retail is that retail is still very important to TiVo.

I think its very plausible that TiVo will return to slow subscriber growth at retail as early as Q2 of this year (Jul 31, 2010). This projection assumes that Comcast launches in at least one or two more markets.


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## davezatz

After reading more about how the IP STB and XL4 work together (or don't, as the case may be) I actually think TiVo should wait to launch this product. You only get one shot at a product launch and the tepid response to the Premiere should have been eye opening. I'd rather they delay it until the software works logically. Not to mention many of us won't buy until then anyway. Then again, assuming they do launch as planned, there will be a high return rate (what, it doesn't work with Premiere? what, it steals my tuners?) and we'll get some good refurb bargains.


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## shwru980r

It seems like a premiere with no cable card would do everything the IP STB does except it won't be able to utilize a tuner from another Tivo for watching live TV. You could still use the premiere for OTA or analog/clear QAM cable to have some live programming available plus 2 extra tuners for recording programs that could be transferred back to the other Tivo. 

If they are charging to purchase the IP STB plus a monthly fee anyway, it can't be that much cheaper than a premiere and the only benefit is sharing a tuner from another Tivo for watching live TV. 

A premiere with lifetime service would probably pay for itself in a few years.


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## morac

davezatz said:


> After reading more about how the IP STB and XL4 work together (or don't, as the case may be) I actually think TiVo should wait to launch this product. You only get one shot at a product launch and the tepid response to the Premiere should have been eye opening. I'd rather they delay it until the software works logically. Not to mention many of us won't buy until then anyway. Then again, assuming they do launch as planned, there will be a high return rate (what, it doesn't work with Premiere? what, it steals my tuners?) and we'll get some good refurb bargains.


If I've learned anything from recent TiVo launches, when management says it's ready for launch, it's ready for launch. Even if it isn't. Then again, that's not much different from a lot of companies that ship first and patch later.


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## aindik

davezatz said:


> After reading more about how the IP STB and XL4 work together (or don't, as the case may be) I actually think TiVo should wait to launch this product. You only get one shot at a product launch and the tepid response to the Premiere should have been eye opening. I'd rather they delay it until the software works logically. Not to mention many of us won't buy until then anyway. Then again, assuming they do launch as planned, there will be a high return rate (what, it doesn't work with Premiere? what, it steals my tuners?) and we'll get some good refurb bargains.


I think it would be seen as much more useful as a box that can stream recordings from a Premiere or later than as a box that can stream and view live TV but only works for owners of an XL4.

IOW, if those two functions are mutually exclusive at this point in the development, they picked the wrong one.


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## Fofer

To prioritize live TV viewing in this product, to an audience of viewers who are using the very same device that has weaned them OFF of live TV viewing (TiVo is a time-shifting DVR, after all) is monumentally stupid.


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## davefred99

I have been following this for awhile now and from what I see this thing is a non starter for a couple of reasons for me. One it will require the XL4 to even work on launch so you have some major upfront costs. Two even if you do use an XL4 it steels at least one tuner for live TV. Whats up with that even WMC can use distributed or shared tuners among multiple XBox extenders. This is a Cable company Box solution to enhance cable revenues with monthly rental fees. It is not a consumer solution where we want to eliminate or reduce our monthly fees on necessary Box rental.
I hear all the arguments for TIVO and the Lifetime subscription model being the same as just purchasing the devices outright and the resale value but if this new IP stream/client box requires an XL4 won't that kill some of the resale value of the Premiers and older boxes even if they have a lifetime sub.
I am hanging my hat on the Ceton Q server and Client Solution. As long as the Cost is competitive I think it will be a far better solution for me. In the mean time I will stick with my current SageTV Server & Client solution and skip the extra sub fees all together.


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## mattack

Fofer said:


> To prioritize live TV viewing in this product, to an audience of viewers who are using the very same device that has weaned them OFF of live TV viewing (TiVo is a time-shifting DVR, after all) is monumentally stupid.


You are projecting.

Studies [citation needed on myself] have shown that lots of people *don't* actually record shows for later, and do watch a lot of live tv (i.e. channel flipping). Just like lots of people watch commercials even when they have recorded shows.

I think both ideas are nuts too..


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## todd_j_derr

If they really have the "don't assign a tuner" functionality depicted in those screenshots, you'd have to think they'll reconsider supporting the non-XL.

FWIW, Moxi more or less nailed this, and 3 years ago. The Mate (IP-STB equivalent) dynamically allocates a tuner from the main DVR when watching live TV. You can press "stop" to deallocate the tuner. After no activity for some amount of time (3hr? maybe configurable?) it prompts "are you still watching?" and if you don't respond it stops playing and deallocates the tuner.

If there is any kind of conflict (recording, another Mate, etc.) you get a prompt with multiple options (stop live tv on this box, stop live tv on another box, stop the recording, etc). IIRC the default is always to prioritize recording - if you don't respond to the prompt it stops live TV and steals the tuner. Also it's smart enough to only use one tuner per channel, even if that channel is being watched/recorded in multiple places.

I had plenty of other frustrations with Moxi but Tivo should be happy no one has ever heard of it in this case


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## Fofer

mattack said:


> You are projecting.
> 
> Studies [citation needed on myself] have shown that lots of people *don't* actually record shows for later, and do watch a lot of live tv (i.e. channel flipping). Just like lots of people watch commercials even when they have recorded shows.


With DVRs in general, or specifically with TiVo? If it's former, it's not a good comparison, and if it's the latter, why are they jumping through the prerequisite hoops to be getting a TiVo in the first place?


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## aaronwt

todd_j_derr said:


> If they really have the "don't assign a tuner" functionality depicted in those screenshots, you'd have to think they'll reconsider supporting the non-XL.
> 
> FWIW, Moxi more or less nailed this, and 3 years ago. .................


Yet Moxi sales didn't exceed 5K.


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## innocentfreak

I could see TiVo doing a soft launch where you can only order it direct from them if you order with a XL4 or with one already tied to your count. Then once the XL4 limitation is removed they would offer it for sale through Best Buy and Amazon.


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## Dan203

sbiller said:


> There's a reason they changed the price of the base Premiere to $149. The Stream and IP-STB will be priced lower than $149.
> 
> https://www3.tivo.com/store/home.do


Nope! TiVo raised the base price on the Premiere so that they could lower the monthly fee. (from $19.95/mo to $14.95/mo) They have been doing this dance for years. Trying to find the optimal balance between cost of entry and monthly fees. They're still making roughly the same amount of money ($100 + $20/mo = $340 or $150 + $15/mo = $330) but they're shifting it from the monthly fee to the upfront cost.

The only way the IP box is going to be cheaper then the Premiere is if it has a monthly fee. If it's a straight purchase with no monthly fee then they'll have to charge more to make a profit on it.

Dan


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## aindik

Dan203 said:


> Nope! TiVo raised the base price on the Premiere so that they could lower the monthly fee. (from $19.95/mo to $14.95/mo) They have been doing this dance for years. Trying to find the optimal balance between cost of entry and monthly fees. They're still making roughly the same amount of money ($100 + $20/mo = $340 or $150 + $15/mo = $330) but they're shifting it from the monthly fee to the upfront cost.
> 
> The only way the IP box is going to be cheaper then the Premiere is if it has a monthly fee. If it's a straight purchase with no monthly fee then they'll have to charge more to make a profit on it.
> 
> Dan


Perhaps they don't intend to make a profit on it, but intend to use it as a loss leader to sell Premiere XL4 DVRs.


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## jmpage2

Dan203 said:


> Nope! TiVo raised the base price on the Premiere so that they could lower the monthly fee. (from $19.95/mo to $14.95/mo) They have been doing this dance for years. Trying to find the optimal balance between cost of entry and monthly fees. They're still making roughly the same amount of money ($100 + $20/mo = $340 or $150 + $15/mo = $330) but they're shifting it from the monthly fee to the upfront cost.
> 
> The only way the IP box is going to be cheaper then the Premiere is if it has a monthly fee. If it's a straight purchase with no monthly fee then they'll have to charge more to make a profit on it.
> 
> Dan


I would say that it depends on what the box actually costs them. If they can get the box for $49 and sell it to retail for $119 they are making a decent profit and they are slowing down the loss of their highly profitable monthly retail customers.

I personally am not going to buy these and have each one with its own little nickel/dime monthly charge (and I eventually need 3-4 of them)...

If TiVo charged one monthly charge for the in-home streaming, and/or a lifetime purchase option regardless of how many extenders were in use, that I could live with.


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## tlc

jmpage2 said:


> If TiVo charged one monthly charge for the in-home streaming, and/or a lifetime purchase option regardless of how many extenders were in use, that I could live with.


But you can already stream free between Premieres and transfer free since Series 3.

BTW, Premiere owners,

When do you use streaming vs transfer? Why?


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## Fofer

Stream when the CC flag doesn't _let_ you transfer. Stream when you just want to watch something, without leaving a copy on the local machine behind.


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## mbalgeman

aindik said:


> IOW, if those two functions are mutually exclusive at this point in the development, they picked the wrong one.





Fofer said:


> To prioritize live TV viewing in this product, to an audience of viewers who are using the very same device that has weaned them OFF of live TV viewing (TiVo is a time-shifting DVR, after all) is monumentally stupid.


To understand their decisions, you need to understand and accept that you aren't their PRIMARY customer at this point, the CableCos are. You're requirements aren't the most important ones, the CableCos are. And I'd be willing to bet that the average cable DVR "owner" watches much more live TV than most of us would think, so Live TV is a very important feature to them.

It's the same reason we have locked bootloader and bloatware on smart phones. The service provider is the primary customer, not the end user.


----------



## Dan203

tlc said:


> When do you use streaming vs transfer? Why?


Transfer when you want to move something to the new TiVo, like if you're running low on space or transferring the SP to that TiVo and want all episodes in the same place. For everything else streaming is much more convenient.

Dan


----------



## Fofer

mbalgeman said:


> And I'd be willing to bet that the average cable DVR "owner" watches much more live TV than most of us would think, so Live TV is a very important feature to them.


But the "average cable DVR owner" doesn't have a TiVo, and I'd be willing to bet that the average TiVo owner watches much less live TV than they time-shifted recordings.


----------



## tlc

Also, regarding the MSO focus: Whenever the articles said the boxes were available (I think it was "summer"), I don't think they said available for _retail purchase_ then. Retail sales may not be until much later, maybe even after all the issues are worked out and the boxes' behaviors are well known.


----------



## aindik

Fofer said:


> But the "average cable DVR owner" doesn't have a TiVo.


This is something TiVo is trying to change.


----------



## Fofer

aindik said:


> This is something TiVo is trying to change.


LOL. They have so many OTHER problems, precluding their existing Premiere customers from being able to use this new box (already ~3 years too late) at intro certainly isn't going to help matters.


----------



## jmpage2

tlc said:


> But you can already stream free between Premieres and transfer free since Series 3.
> 
> BTW, Premiere owners,
> 
> When do you use streaming vs transfer? Why?


This is the 2nd time you've brought up why people would stream vs. transfer. Transfer means you end up with a 2nd copy of the program on your hard drive. Streaming starts up more immediately and FF/skip work more quickly because you don't have to wait for more of the program to buffer up.

Also, as others have pointed out to you (twice now) if you live in an area where the cable provider marks the program do not copy then you can't transfer, you can only stream.

The entire point of the streaming box, in lieu of another Premiere would I think be obvious. MSOs and retail customers don't want to have to deploy numerous power hungry hard drive equipped boxes with TiVo subscriptions (and cable card headaches) to get whole home functionality. I personally know two people who have switched from TiVo to their MSO whole home solution so that they can have one "dvr" in the family area and have other boxes in other rooms just to "watch tv". There are many members here at TCF that have numerous Premiere boxes in their homes and joyously spend thousands on TiVo hardware, subscriptions not to mention a very healthy cable bill. Those types of customers are the extreme minority and TiVo can't make their strategic decisions based on the habits of those customers and survive.

TiVo obviously understands this, hence the Preview and Stream box options, the problem is, as always TiVo is incredibly slow to execute on this, and apparently will be releasing a 1/2 baked option which they will probably take another year to get working properly.

Whoever is in charge of software development at TiVo should get ****-canned, they clearly don't know what they are doing.


----------



## steve614

tlc said:


> Also, regarding the MSO focus: Whenever the articles said the boxes were available (I think it was "summer"), I don't think they said available for _retail purchase_ then. Retail sales may not be until much later, maybe even after all the issues are worked out and the boxes' behaviors are well known.


Yeah! Release them to the cable companies first and let cable users deal with the bugs and limitations. Then when all the kinks are worked out, release them to the public. I can wait. I'm tired of being a 'phase 2 beta tester' for TiVo.


----------



## moyekj

tlc said:


> When do you use streaming vs transfer? Why?


 In addition to the advantages of streaming jmpage2 mentioned another huge one is you can stream shows that are still recording, something you can't do using transfer. This is especially important for long recordings such as 3.5 hour sports programs that you want to watch time delayed that are recording on a Premiere unit in another room.


----------



## tlc

jmpage2 said:


> This is the 2nd time you've brought up why people would stream vs. transfer.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Also, as others have pointed out to you (twice now)...


Huh? No it isn't.


----------



## todd_j_derr

aaronwt said:


> Yet Moxi sales didn't exceed 5K.


I fail to see the relevance. Just because no one bought one doesn't mean they didn't do some things right, including something that seems to have a lot of Tivo users upset.

Personally, I'd rather have the IP-STB released sooner rather than later even if it means dedicated tuners, since it means I can get rid of the rest of my Moxi stuff... but it does feel like a step backwards and if I didn't have 2 Elites it wouldn't even be possible to do what I want (I'm planning on buying 3 IP-STBs or maybe even 4 if the price is right).


----------



## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> The survey I took a few months ago suggested that the price of this box would reflect the inclusion of a built in lifetime subscription. So I don't think TiVo is planning on charging a separate subscription fee. However expect the box to cost somewhere in the range of $200-$250/ea.
> 
> Dan





aaronwt said:


> I would rather have a lower price, like $100 to $150, and a small monthly fee, like $4 or $5. So I hope they have more than one service option.


Not that i can confirm that i took a survey or antyhing but my guess is it will have lifetime but I think the price will be more like $149. (perhaps if we hit the jackpot just $99)

For all the comments about it has to make a profit and so they need to sell it for more or with a monthly fee- I wholeheartedly agree with the people that posted it's bigger picture and doesn't need to be profitable itself. It's about making the whole tivo ecosystem better.

By the "have to maximize profits logic" - american car companies in the 70's and 80's should have beet the pants off the imports. American car's lasted no where near as long so you were forced to return to the showroom more often. So why didn't the American makers make more money? As is obvious because many started buying Toyota's and the like because those cars had the features people wanted- longevity.

If Tivo breaks even on the retail IP STB but they keep their MSO partners happy by having a whole home solution, and they add fuel to the fire that a retail TiVo is the best retail box to have connected to your tv then it's a win.

By the "maximize profits" logic tivo should never have created boxes with more than 1 tuner like the various directivo's, the S2DT, the S3/THD, the premiers and certainly not the q/elite/xl4. How well would tivo be doing at retail with only single tuner boxes like the S1 today?


----------



## MichaelK

BigJimOutlaw said:


> ...
> 
> If we've learned anything over the years, it's that their STB software development is, uh, not fast. While their app development (outsourced?) has actually been rather excellent.


sorry to go back so far- am I dense and this was sarcasm and supposed to be a joke?


----------



## aaronwt

MichaelK said:


> .................How well would tivo be doing at retail with only single tuner boxes like the S1 today?


Probably the same if all the competition also had only single tuner boxes.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

MichaelK said:


> sorry to go back so far- am I dense and this was sarcasm and supposed to be a joke?


I was being serious.


----------



## Dan203

MichaelK said:


> For all the comments about it has to make a profit and so they need to sell it for more or with a monthly fee- I wholeheartedly agree with the people that posted it's bigger picture and doesn't need to be profitable itself. It's about making the whole tivo ecosystem better.


I don't think they need to make a profit on it, but they won't subsidize it unless it has a monthly fee. Premiere units are subsidized, which is why they are so cheap. there is no incentive for these IP boxes to be subsidized, so they will likely cost more then people expect unless they turn out to be really cheap to make.

Dan


----------



## morac

Based on the pricing of other accessories released by TiVo, I'd say pick a price you think is reasonable and then add about 50% to that price. So if people think it should cost $150, it's likely to cost around $225. At least initially.


----------



## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> I don't think they need to make a profit on it, but they won't subsidize it unless it has a monthly fee. Premiere units are subsidized, which is why they are so cheap. there is no incentive for these IP boxes to be subsidized, so they will likely cost more then people expect unless they turn out to be really cheap to make.
> 
> Dan


If i search Google shopping for "bluray player netflix" there's a page of hardware that comes up all for under $150. And real big name brands like samsung, lg, Panasonic who all want to make a profit - not just break even.

So why wouldn't Tivo be able to deliver a box without a profit for someplace near $150? Same basic thing but without the need for the disc drive even?

Anyone know what the Premiere costs ToVo now a days- some folks here were able to back those numbers out of the conference call numbers?

Figure a newer premiere (so cheaper like each earlier hardware refresh has saved them money with a simplier motherboard) but with a smaller case, no drive, no tuners, no cablecard hardware and a smaller power supply without all that stuff- doesn't seem crazy that they could make an IP only version for several tens of dollars less than a premier. So even if the premiere costs them 200 to make it would seem they could get an IP only out for $150. Even if the premier costs 250 the ip box would be under 200. So there's just no way in my mind that it's over $199. Hopefully $149. Maybe even just $129 or 99 or something crazy like that...

That and a roku is well under 100 bucks without a fee- right? Apple tv (but you pay for content there?) too. Dlink around 100-150? All those are the same basic thing as the tivo streamer so why would the tivo one cost twice as much?

all that said- I'm not in the business at or anything so i really have no clue- just all guesses.


----------



## MichaelK

morac said:


> Based on the pricing of other accessories released by TiVo, I'd say pick a price you think is reasonable and then add about 50% to that price. So if people think it should cost $150, it's likely to cost around $225. At least initially.


Actually I'd think it reasonable to pay 75 or more for the tivo bluetooth remote when comparing to other RF remotes and am amazed that after they nailed all the early adopters that it can be had for only $40 in a variety of places.

So maybe $150 is the end game but the early adopter pays $249.


----------



## aaronwt

$249 would really suck.


----------



## magnus

aaronwt said:


> $249 would really suck.


249 would not come even close to me even taking a second look at it.


----------



## moyekj

magnus said:


> 249 would not come even close to me even taking a second look at it.


 +2. At that price I'd be looking at another TiVo instead. Right now $450 with MSD gets you a lifetime Premiere after all.


----------



## MichaelK

I'm holding out for $149 but just really my particular guess


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

I'm guessing $150-$170. Nothing about the box seems so expensive that it needs subsidizing, and Tivo doesn't necessarily need to take a sub from it anymore than they do their app.


----------



## atmuscarella

List price should be $99 but it certainly needs to be less than $150.

Like others have said there are plenty of devices selling for less than $150 that do everything the IP-streaming device will do. Heck my friend just bought a 2012 top rated Panasonic Blu-Ray player (DMP-BDT220) and paid $140 it works great for streaming stuff.

Frankly if TiVo can not get build something for under $150 they should just put a streaming app on this blu-ray player or a Roku.


----------



## heatherprotz

Love to grab one ASAP.


----------



## morac

atmuscarella said:


> List price should be $99 but it certainly needs to be less than $150.
> 
> Like others have said there are plenty of devices selling for less than $150 that do everything the IP-streaming device will do. Heck my friend just bought a 2012 top rated Panasonic Blu-Ray player (DMP-BDT220) and paid $140 it works great for streaming stuff.
> 
> Frankly if TiVo can not get build something for under $150 they should just put a streaming app on this blu-ray player or a Roku.


Keep in mind the IP-streaming device has built in MoCa support, which no other consumer device supports, that I'm aware of. I'm not sure how much extra that adds to the cost over other devices such as Roku boxes or blu-ray players.


----------



## compnurd

morac said:


> Keep in mind the IP-streaming device has built in MoCa support, which no other consumer device supports, that I'm aware of. I'm not sure how much extra that adds to the cost over other devices such as Roku boxes or blu-ray players.


I am saying maybe 99-150 with no fee, and then maybe 49 with a 3-5 monthly fee.... they cant price it over the premiere... otherwise you can just buy a premiere and not worry about losing a tuner etc


----------



## morac

compnurd said:


> I am saying maybe 99-150 with no fee, and then maybe 49 with a 3-5 monthly fee.... they cant price it over the premiere... otherwise you can just buy a premiere and not worry about losing a tuner etc


They can absolutely price it over the Premiere, as long as there is no monthly fee and the cost doesn't exceed the cost of a Premiere plus lifetime service. The Premiere is subsidized; I doubt this will be.


----------



## atmuscarella

morac said:


> Keep in mind the IP-streaming device has built in MoCa support, which no other consumer device supports, that I'm aware of. I'm not sure how much extra that adds to the cost over other devices such as Roku boxes or blu-ray players.


Ya I am sure that adds cost and for their cable company customers adds value.

Not sure how much it does stand alone customers, kind of like if they should build in wireless good for some waist of money for others.

My bottom line is this needs to cost less than $150 to be interesting to very many people. I am sure some would be willing to pay more but I would guess the number would be very limited.

My general guess on how TiVo will market this is they will use it to sell more XL 4s by charging a fairly high amount for just the unit but give a good discount when bundled with a new XL4.


----------



## nrc

Pricing it higher than a Premiere would confuse consumers since they won't relate it to the lack of a monthly fee. If TiVo needs it to cost as much as a Premiere to make a profit then they should absolutely offer a monthly fee option so that people get an apples to apples comparison. Say, $80 with a $5 monthly fee or $150 without.


----------



## Dan203

I was simply saying the pricing is entirely dependent on how much the hardware costs. If they can make the box for $75 then a <$100 price tag is well within reason, but if it costs them $200 to make then I would expect something closer to $250. Hopefully they've considered this in the design and tried to make the hardware as cheap as possible.

Also keep in mind that there are R&D costs involved. Just because the box costs $75 in hardware to make doesn't mean that's what it cost TiVo to bring it to market. They're going to want to recoup the R&D as quickly as possible, which could cause the initial price to be higher.

Dan


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

There are probably some R&D cost benefits in that the Series 4 platform was designed to be modular, and that's what helped them spread their wings with all of these solutions from 0 to 4 tuners. Not that R&D was nothing, far from it. (I'm assuming the IP box is based off the S4 platform just as the Preview was.)

Anywhere from $80-100 in costs have been stripped out compared to their 2 tuner DVR. In particular the cablecard slot, which has remained an unusually expensive component despite wide cableco adoption.

The MoCA networking and the Flash memory probably add a couple bucks for each feature. I don't know specifically what the cost of Broadcom's 3-year-old BCM7413 CPU is, but nothing about this really screams much more than $60-75ish after everything's all told (assembly & packaging).

After Tivo and retailer take their cut (standard wholesale cost + retailer markup), $150-175 retail seems completely reasonable and within reach to me, even early on.

Anything above that is an EPG tax IF they have to charge for it, which is far from certain.

IMO


----------



## davefred99

I don't see anything new or ingenious that would run the cost of an IP streaming box for TIVO. ROKU , Xbox, Apple TV. Google TV all do streaming already on low cost hardware. The only thing I see remotely difficult is writing the software to ensure a secure handshake between the IP stream Box and the TIVO XL Server Box.

Personally It seem like a simpler solution would be to just write some sort of script for any or all of the above listed existing hardware. I know that is a simplistic solution and will not happen but it begs the question as to why this is so difficult to do.


----------



## magnus

davefred99 said:


> I don't see anything new or ingenious that would run the cost of an IP streaming box for TIVO. ROKU , Xbox, Apple TV. Google TV all do streaming already on low cost hardware. The only thing I see remotely difficult is writing the software to ensure a secure handshake between the IP stream Box and the TIVO XL Server Box.
> 
> Personally It seem like a simpler solution would be to just write some sort of script for any or all of the above listed existing hardware. I know that is a simplistic solution and will not happen but it begs the question as to why this is so difficult to do.


I think the TiVo Stream is the catalyst to get it on all the others. I think it would need to be transcoded to be on anything else. However, if the only devices that I am going to be able to use this with are iOS the I can't see buying it. And if the price is too high then I can't even see taking a second look at it. I already have a slingbox.


----------



## sbiller

Dan203 said:


> Also keep in mind that there are R&D costs involved. Just because the box costs $75 in hardware to make doesn't mean that's what it cost TiVo to bring it to market. They're going to want to recoup the R&D as quickly as possible, which could cause the initial price to be higher.


More speculation on my part but I think they would view the R&D investment required to bring the IP Set Top Box and TiVo Stream to market as strategic and would not try to recoup the investment via the price of the box.

They're strategy continues to be to monetize via:

1) Service & Technology Revenues
2) Hardware Revenues
3) Advertising
4) Audience Research & Measurement

The price of the boxes would fall into the Hardware Revenues bucket. I believe they will not subsidize but I wouldn't be surprised if they will sell it at very thin margins since anyone who purchases either box is guaranteed to have bought into the TiVo Ecosystem in some way or another.


----------



## jmpage2

nrc said:


> Pricing it higher than a Premiere would confuse consumers since they won't relate it to the lack of a monthly fee. If TiVo needs it to cost as much as a Premiere to make a profit then they should absolutely offer a monthly fee option so that people get an apples to apples comparison. Say, $80 with a $5 monthly fee or $150 without.


$80 with a $5 monthly fee is a terrible value proposition as you would be at the same $150 price just 14 months after purchase and losing money every month afterwards.


----------



## MichaelK

Dan203 said:


> ...
> Also keep in mind that there are R&D costs involved. Just because the box costs $75 in hardware to make doesn't mean that's what it cost TiVo to bring it to market. They're going to want to recoup the R&D as quickly as possible, which could cause the initial price to be higher.
> 
> Dan


was going to say they dont bother trying to recoup R&D directly ever but then Sbiller posted this and I'd have to say "ding ding ding we have a winner"



sbiller said:


> More speculation on my part but I think they would view the R&D investment required to bring the IP Set Top Box and TiVo Stream to market as strategic and would not try to recoup the investment via the price of the box.
> 
> They're strategy continues to be to monetize via:
> 
> 1) Service & Technology Revenues
> 2) Hardware Revenues
> 3) Advertising
> 4) Audience Research & Measurement
> 
> The price of the boxes would fall into the Hardware Revenues bucket. I believe they will not subsidize but I wouldn't be surprised if they will sell it at very thin margins since anyone who purchases either box is guaranteed to have bought into the TiVo Ecosystem in some way or another.


----------



## shwru980r

I think they need to price the IP set top box so that it takes a year to pay for itself for a customer with a premiere with a monthly subscription. If someone immediately replaces a premiere with a monthly subscription with the ip set top box, then the profit is greatly diminished. 

I think the ip set top box needs to cost $249.99 with $14.99 monthly service or $299 lifetime service. This way the total cost of the lifetime ip set top box is the same price as a premiere. But if the customer has a monthly subscription, then it will take some time to recoup the costs through cable card savings.


----------



## aaronwt

shwru980r said:


> I think they need to price the IP set top box so that it takes a year to pay for itself for a customer with a premiere with a monthly subscription. If someone immediately replaces a premiere with a monthly subscription with the ip set top box, then the profit is greatly diminished.
> 
> I think the ip set top box needs to cost $249.99 with $14.99 monthly service or $299 lifetime service. This way the total cost of the lifetime ip set top box is the same price as a premiere. But if the customer has a monthly subscription, then it will take some time to recoup the costs through cable card savings.


if they price it that high I would think it will be DOA at retail. That would be equal to the cost of the new Premieres with 500GB drives and lifetime service. $150 + $400=$550.
I know I wouldn't even consider touching it if it's priced the same as a base Premiere with lifetime. Heck I could just get lifetime for $400on a Premiere I bought for $50 that was for spare parts and save $100.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

At $550 they wouldn't bother bringing it to retail.

If they were concerned about cannibalizing DVR sales there wouldn't be dual or quad tuner DVRs. Whole-home solutions exactly like this where you have one "big" box with a lot of tuners and cheap thin clients around the rest of the house is where the entire industry is going. Tivo had to embrace that progress or die, just as they embraced more tuners.


----------



## jmpage2

People who are worried about TiVos profitability are missing the point. My strong hunch is that this is less about profitability as it is a play to slow down attrition in their retail/home user base, as well as grow TiVo mindshare.

In other words, I doubt TiVo is worried about cannibalizing sales of other TiVo products, that is already happening through attrition in the user base, as more and more users give up on TiVo and go with competitor solutions that already do the whole house thing, have their own place shifting apps, etc.


----------



## aindik

jmpage2 said:


> People who are worried about TiVos profitability are missing the point. My strong hunch is that this is less about profitability as it is a play to slow down attrition in their retail/home user base, as well as grow TiVo mindshare.
> 
> In other words, I doubt TiVo is worried about cannibalizing sales of other TiVo products, that is already happening through attrition in the user base, as more and more users give up on TiVo and go with competitor solutions that already do the whole house thing, have their own place shifting apps, etc.


Hard to slow down attrition by limiting the product to use along with Premiere XL4 DVRs only.


----------



## rainwater

aindik said:


> Hard to slow down attrition by limiting the product to use along with Premiere XL4 DVRs only.


Since they will surely be selling these in bundle packages with the XL4, I don't think TiVo is too worried about how many sales they get of the device by itself. It's all about offering a whole home solution package to new users.


----------



## steve614

I have a feeling that our voice will be heard, and that the IP box will work with the Premier upon release, albeit with limitations.

To do anything else would be shooting themselves in the foot (IMO).


----------



## slowbiscuit

shwru980r said:


> I think they need to price the IP set top box so that it takes a year to pay for itself for a customer with a premiere with a monthly subscription. If someone immediately replaces a premiere with a monthly subscription with the ip set top box, then the profit is greatly diminished.
> 
> I think the ip set top box needs to cost $249.99 with $14.99 monthly service or $299 lifetime service. This way the total cost of the lifetime ip set top box is the same price as a premiere. But if the customer has a monthly subscription, then it will take some time to recoup the costs through cable card savings.


That's insane, and would be an instant epic fail. I don't know how you possibly came to that conclusion given the reality of the extender market.


----------



## Fofer

Yeah, let me pay 5x what I paid for my Premiere! LOL


----------



## bradleys

Ridiculous...

It will come in less then $200 without a service fee otherwise it will be a complete and fantastic fail. I predict a price between $150 and $180.

I also agree that the moritorium on standard Premier devices will be short lived - I suspect a 4th quarter 2012 / 1st quarter 2013 software update will remedy that issue as well.


----------



## sneagle

/subscribe


----------



## shwru980r

slowbiscuit said:


> That's insane, and would be an instant epic fail. I don't know how you possibly came to that conclusion given the reality of the extender market.


The ip set top box will put live TV in a second room without a cable card fee or an additional outlet fee. Depending on your cable company, that could be a $10 or more per month savings per ip set top box. Under this scenario, the savings would pay for the hardware cost a couple of years. The cable card and additional outlet fees will never go away.


----------



## richbrew

bradleys said:


> That is the plan at which time they will open this device up to regular Premiers...


I don't really understand the logic here. Instead of excluding certain models, why not simply note a feature limitation?

* Live TV feature available only when used with XL/Q.

It would be much less complicated, and less confusing. They could still allow remote guide, and scheduling features, and with less confusion (not knowing that it actually WILL work with thier non-XL/Q for streaming) more people would buy it. Later they could say 'Hey! We just added a new feature! Your STB can show live TV from your Premier now!'


----------



## Fofer

Because this is TiVo and TiVo has a way of doing things that are just... backwards, and infuriating, time after time.


----------



## MichaelK

Way to get the FUD cranking.



aindik said:


> Hard to slow down attrition by limiting the product to use along with Premiere XL4 DVRs only.


 ... at launch....


----------



## slowbiscuit

shwru980r said:


> The ip set top box will put live TV in a second room without a cable card fee or an additional outlet fee. Depending on your cable company, that could be a $10 or more per month savings per ip set top box. Under this scenario, the savings would pay for the hardware cost a couple of years. The cable card and additional outlet fees will never go away.


The outlet savings has nothing to do with the competitive price of a whole-home DVR extender in the market.

I'm sorry, but pricing the IP STB at $250 + $300 sub will never happen, and it's crazy talk to even suggest that because no one will buy it at that price when Premieres can easily be had for less than $500, lifetime included. I predict it will be well under $200 with no sub.


----------



## bbrown9

IMO, in order to compete with what other vendors are offering, the price should be $99 - no monthly fee. Anything higher than $150 is too much.


----------



## uw69

bbrown9 said:


> IMO, in order to compete with what other vendors are offering, the price should be $99 - no monthly fee. Anything higher than $150 is too much.


$99 with no monthly fees would be the sweet spot IMHO. They would fly off the shelves and drive sales of elites and premieres when/if they become compatible.


----------



## aindik

MichaelK said:


> Way to get the FUD cranking.
> 
> ... at launch....


Wasn't an attempt at FUD. I'm just reading and reacting to the thread.

Then again, I think a little U and D are perfectly warranted in this instance. U is exactly what we have with respect to whether people who don't own an XL4 will ever be able to use an IPSTB.

(Am I right that the Stream, as opposed to the IPSTB, will in fact work with regular old Premieres?)


----------



## atmuscarella

aindik said:


> Wasn't an attempt at FUD. I'm just reading and reacting to the thread.
> 
> Then again, I think a little U and D are perfectly warranted in this instance. U is exactly what we have with respect to whether people who don't own an XL4 will ever be able to use an IPSTB.
> 
> (Am I right that the Stream, as opposed to the IPSTB, will in fact work with regular old Premieres?)


Some of this thread is FUD because it is people complaining about stuff that hasn't happened and may or may not actually happen.

It is fine to speculate on all this but some posters are using someone's speculation to dig TiVo which is FUD. It is even fine to have negative opinions on what might be released but some of what is posted around here is what many people would call anti-TiVo FUD.

I am fairly sure there will be some justifiable complaints but they aren't justified until there are actual products in consumers hands to complain about not someone's speculation on how something might work.


----------



## innocentfreak

I updated the Ceton beta thread, but just as a comparison Ceton just announced the Echo will have a MSRP of $179.99. The Echo is their extender box for Media Center which also supports Netflix and other options.


----------



## aaronwt

I hope the IP STB comes out soon. I'm all ready to add one in my bedroom so I can take that Premiere permanently out of that room since I take it to my GFs house when visiting.
I found it's much easier and quicker to just take the entire box with recordings since the Premiere is much smaller and lighter than the S3 boxes. I have a remote, power cable and WiFi adapter at my GFs house so I just need to throw the box in travel bag and carry it with me. 

I'm also hoping the IP STB sips power since I've been trying to use less and less electricity as the rates have gone up. I have noticed a difference since I've sold most of my TiVos and am down to a couple of Elites and the Premiere.


----------



## Traal

davefred99 said:


> I don't see anything new or ingenious that would run the cost of an IP streaming box for TIVO. ROKU , Xbox, Apple TV... Personally It seem like a simpler solution would be to just write some sort of script for any or all of the above listed existing hardware. I know that is a simplistic solution...


A little, but I think you're on to something. Let's take the Roku, for example. TiVo's recordings are saved in MPEG-2, but the Roku only does H.264/MPEG-4, and it uses a chip to do the decoding. The chip can also decode MPEG-2 (being more or less a subset of MPEG-4), but to save on licensing costs the company decided to disable MPEG-2 decoding in the Roku boxes. So either Roku would need to enable MPEG-2 on at least their high-end model so TiVo can write an app that uses it, or Roku and TiVo would need to partner on a special TiVo-enabled Roku box.

Xbox and Apple TV and Google TV may not have the same issue. But in any case, what you are suggesting is doable, and in my opinion, a very good idea, unless TiVo wants to become a competitor in the IP STB space.


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## aindik

Traal said:


> A little, but I think you're on to something. Let's take the Roku, for example. TiVo's recordings are saved in MPEG-2, but the Roku only does H.264/MPEG-4, and it uses a chip to do the decoding. The chip can also decode MPEG-2 (being more or less a subset of MPEG-4), but to save on licensing costs the company decided to disable MPEG-2 decoding in the Roku boxes. So either Roku would need to enable MPEG-2 on at least their high-end model so TiVo can write an app that uses it, or Roku and TiVo would need to partner on a special TiVo-enabled Roku box.
> 
> Xbox and Apple TV and Google TV may not have the same issue. But in any case, what you are suggesting is doable, and in my opinion, a very good idea, *unless TiVo wants to become a competitor in the IP STB space.*


Which it does, hence the second half of the thread title.

I would be more likely to buy a TiVo Stream if I could stream to my AppleTVs in addition to my iOS devices. But I'd be less likely to buy these IP STBs that have been announced but not yet released.


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## Fofer

Why not jailbreak? I'm AirPlaying TiVo this way...


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## morac

Fofer said:


> Why not jailbreak? I'm AirPlaying TiVo this way...


Because not all iOS devices can be jailbroken currently?


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## spaldingclan

I wish I could Airplay TO my Tivo


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## Dan203

Traal said:


> A little, but I think you're on to something. Let's take the Roku, for example. TiVo's recordings are saved in MPEG-2, but the Roku only does H.264/MPEG-4, and it uses a chip to do the decoding. The chip can also decode MPEG-2 (being more or less a subset of MPEG-4), but to save on licensing costs the company decided to disable MPEG-2 decoding in the Roku boxes. So either Roku would need to enable MPEG-2 on at least their high-end model so TiVo can write an app that uses it, or Roku and TiVo would need to partner on a special TiVo-enabled Roku box.
> 
> Xbox and Apple TV and Google TV may not have the same issue. But in any case, what you are suggesting is doable, and in my opinion, a very good idea, unless TiVo wants to become a competitor in the IP STB space.


No need for a special Roku. They could simply write a Roku app that supports the TiVo Stream and then the video would be converted to H.264 on the fly which the Roku can decode without issue. TiVo did a survey recently that actually hinted that they were at least considering supporting the Stream via various other devices like Roku, AppleTV, game consoles, etc...

Also, for the record, MPEG-2 is NOT a subset of MPEG-4. They are two completely different standards created by the same standards body. They do use some similar techniques for compression, but their approached are very, very, different especially from the perspective of a dedicated chip. There are chips that can decode both, and the Roku might have one, but they typically have two separate "cores" for each codec. Most devices that can decode MPEG-4 use simpler chips that are only capable of decoding MPEG-4, they don't all support MPEG-2 and just turn it off to save the licensing costs. (MPEG-2 decode licensing is super cheap, like <$1 per seat, so I doubt that would be a driving factor)

Dan


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## aaronwt

Traal said:


> A little, but I think you're on to something. Let's take the Roku, for example. TiVo's recordings are saved in MPEG-2, ..............


TiVo saves in whatever is format is broadcast. Either MPEG2 or H.264. FiOS has several H.264 channels.


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## ShayL

aaronwt said:


> FiOS has several H.264 channels.


Which FIOS channels are H.264?


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## compnurd

ShayL said:


> Which FIOS channels are H.264?


I think he meant MPEG-4


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## CoxInPHX

ShayL said:


> Which FIOS channels are H.264?





compnurd said:


> I think he meant MPEG-4


H.264/MPEG-4 Part 10 (Same Thing)

TiVo Diagnostics and WMC Diagnostics report the video codec as H.264

Cox has about 30 H.264 HD linear channels available in most markets all above 900MHz and mostly Premium channels, HBOs, SHOs, Starz', TMCs, Cinemax, along with DIYHD, CookingHD, OutdoorHD, HUBHD and SWRVHD.


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## aaronwt

ShayL said:


> Which FIOS channels are H.264?


Some of the Spanish channels are and some of the baseball channels. But I think those baseball channels have now been switched to basketball channels.


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## ShayL

aaronwt said:


> Some of the Spanish channels are and some of the baseball channels. But I think those baseball channels have now been switched to basketball channels.


Gotcha. Thank you. Are the recordings smaller in size when it is H.264?


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## aaronwt

ShayL said:


> Gotcha. Thank you. Are the recordings smaller in size when it is H.264?


They should be since they can be compressed more and have the same quality. I only tested the H.264 channels out one weekend when they had the baseball channels for free.


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