# UPS with Tivo



## Stormydog (Oct 13, 2010)

I have a newer Premium XL. We seem to have power losses for a few seconds from time to time. Only a couple of times it affected my S2.
I am wondering if anyone uses a uninteruptable power supply with the HD TV, Tivo and stereo plugged in to handle power loss? Supposedly my house has whole house surge protection, so any additional protection would help.


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

I think you'll find a lot of people here use UPSes with their TiVos (here's an old poll thread from 2009).

I've got a monster APC J15 in the main media cabinet in the family room where the Premiere is. My other TiVos just have more basic UPSes connected to them ... just enough to keep them running through brief power outages.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

Absolutely. Won't plug in a TiVo without one.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

+1.
Well, the TiVo is plugged into the battery side, I know the TV is just plugged into surge protection, not battery, and I'm pretty sure the receiver is as well (or at least should be).

To run the TV and receiver I'd want a much bigger UPS. And if I get a short power-outage it's simple enough to hit 8-second back on the TiVo a few times to catch what I missed.

But if you want the TiVo to continue recording during a short power outage you'll also need to see if there are any other items in the signal path that need power. (powered coax amplifier; powered splitter; fiber OTP [for those lucky FIOS viewers], etc)


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## windracer (Jan 3, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> To run the TV and receiver I'd want a much bigger UPS.


Yeah. In my last full test of the APC J15 I was able to watch TV on my 42" plasma for 10 minutes before it sucked the batteries dry.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Stormydog said:


> I have a newer Premium XL. We seem to have power losses for a few seconds from time to time. Only a couple of times it affected my S2.
> I am wondering if anyone uses a uninteruptable power supply with the HD TV, Tivo and stereo plugged in to handle power loss? Supposedly my house has whole house surge protection, so any additional protection would help.


A TiVo is a computer AND sensitive electronics AND a real-time device. I would never use any of the three without them being on a UPS. A "surge suppressor" is not enough because it does not keep the power going, which can cause data loss, corruption, equipment failure, and (of course) inconvenience.

I have a single UPS that handles my TV, computer, monitor, printer, cable modem, router, phone, UPS, amplifier, CD player, DVD player, Wii, tuning adapter, and, of course, my TiVo. At a minimum, you would want a UPS at least large enough for the TiVo and tuning adapter.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

I found this to be a useful tool from APC: http://www.apc.com/tools/ups_selector/

I ended up getting an APC BACK-UPS XS 1500VA for my entertainment center, and an APC BACK-UPS XS 1300VA for my home office. In a hurricane, I figure I have about 10 minutes of TV time to catch up on any news...


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

-1

hate the damn things. Every time I've used a UPS it's been more trouble than it's worth (battery replacement, batteries burning up / emitting toxic fumes, UPS shutting down due to bad batteries on a minor brownout, inability to deliver promised wattage or runtime, etc). My experiences do tend to differ from most, who seem highly in favor of the UPS. For me, it's just yet another device consuming power, emitting waste heat, and costing money to prevent against a relatively unimportant problem. It's just TV -- I can replace a lost program easily enough. 

In my decade plus of Tivo ownership, including ownership in Arizona where lightning/thunderstorms and power outages are common during monsoon season, I've never had a Tivo in any way damaged by a power outage.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I've been lucky so far. No power fluctuations here usually, so I do without a UPS.
A while back, we were in a deep freeze (for Texas ) and were subject to rolling blackouts strategic power outages that made me wish I had a UPS.  Luckily it didn't affect any sheduled recordings.


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

In 1997 a lightning strike on a cable head close to my house either totally fried or made kinda crazy every bit of direct ac powered electronics in the house except, oddly enough, the single family computer. Literally cooked the cable lead up to the house ground and ate the garage door opener. Since then, everything has been on UPS or, for high current draw stuff, on high quality surge protectors. So I have a half dozen batteries to replace every five years but so what? Nothing ever has to be reset or have life shortened due to voltage/power flux or minor outages and my TiVos, computers, flat panels, and even the garage door opener are completely protected.


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## KenVa (Aug 31, 2005)

I keep thinking I should have my tivos on a UPS, but I have one question for those of you that do. Do all or most UPSs restart when the power returns after the power has been out for long enough to fully drain the battery and it has shutdown. I fear that when I'm away there could be a long power outage and tivos would never come back up to do scheduled recordings.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

According to this example with a computer:


> the UPS would go to battery -> starts shutdown sequence -> computer turns off -> (say AC power returns now) -> UPS is still shutting down and computer is still off -> UPS shutdown process completes -> UPS turns off -> senses good power from the wall -> UPS turns back on ->


So I imagine once the utility company restores power, the UPS would again supply power to the TiVo, and recording would continue.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

orangeboy said:


> According to this example with a computer:
> 
> So I imagine once the utility company restores power, the UPS would again supply power to the TiVo, and recording would continue.


In some UPS units, the unit can be programmed or set to not turn back on if it fails and shuts of during an outage (thereby dropping the load). There may be an instance when you want this to be the case. I have done this with my UPS that also powers a raid5 storage device. Once the UPS has shutdown do to the battery being spent, I want to be the one to power up my raid storage and be there to check things out.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

Stormydog said:


> I am wondering if anyone uses a uninteruptable power supply with the HD TV, Tivo and stereo plugged in to handle power loss? Supposedly my house has whole house surge protection, so any additional protection would help.


 If your 'whole house' protector is properly earthed, then best hardware protection already exists. A UPS does (and only claims to do) one thing. Provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout. To keep the Tivo recording during a blackout. The UPS is only power during blackouts. Does nothing else. Read its spec numbers.

As another noted, a UPS is so cheap as to have a three year life expectancy. Once its battery dies, then its only function ends.

BTW, if your cable or other incoming wires (ie telephone) are also not properly earthed, then all protection is compromised. That cable also must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to a same earth ground used by the 'whole house' protector. Not via any protector. A direct wire connection. Also essential to protecting a TV and Tivo hardware.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

orangeboy said:


> I found this to be a useful tool from APC: http://www.apc.com/tools/ups_selector/
> 
> I ended up getting an APC BACK-UPS XS 1500VA for my entertainment center, and an APC BACK-UPS XS 1300VA for my home office. In a hurricane, I figure I have about 10 minutes of TV time to catch up on any news...


the 1500 models work great. I use a bunch of them with the extended runtime batteries attached. With those attached I can get between 2 hours and 19 hours of runtime depending on the devices connected in that UPS.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

daveak said:


> In some UPS units, the unit can be programmed or set to not turn back on if it fails and shuts of during an outage (thereby dropping the load). There may be an instance when you want this to be the case. I have done this with my UPS that also powers a raid5 storage device. Once the UPS has shutdown do to the battery being spent, I want to be the one to power up my raid storage and be there to check things out.


With the APC units you can use the powerchute software to configure the UPS from the USB connection and a PC. You can select what level for the UPS to come on after the battery has been discharged. You can also select the high and low voltage point that the batteries kick in. AS well as not having an alarm go off everytime it's running on batteries.

Without that option it would be pretty loud with the 12+ APC UPSs I'm using.

I've been running these for many years with no problems. Except years ago when I had an old 32" tube set on on one. The power supply was going in the TV and it blew the capacitors in the UPS. APC replaced it under warranty, and then it happened again as soon as I got the replacement. This is when i realized that something was wrong with the TV. It had been used with a UPS for many years with no issues. APC again repaced the UPS under warranty and I had the power supply replaced in the TV,


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## comma splice (Feb 4, 2010)

Here's a noob question about these devices with a TiVo:

The primary (only?) way to restart your TiVo is by powercycling it (i.e. unplugging the power cord from the back of the TiVo and then plugging it back in), right?

So if that is the TiVo-approved method and doesn't hurt the TiVo (unless you do it all the time, I suppose), why would a power outage harm anything?


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

comma said:


> Here's a noob question about these devices with a TiVo:
> 
> The primary (only?) way to restart your TiVo is by powercycling it (i.e. unplugging the power cord from the back of the TiVo and then plugging it back in), right?
> 
> So if that is the TiVo-approved method and doesn't hurt the TiVo (unless you do it all the time, I suppose), why would a power outage harm anything?


When you power cycle, there is always a chance (no matter how small) of your hard drive not coming back. You are correct in saying it shouldn't hurt to do it sometimes, but if it occurs on a regular basis you can cuase yourself problems. The TiVo is simply a computer and you wouldn't start and restart your computer every day by pulling the plug would you?

The other thing protected by the UPS is your recordings. During high winds or storms, when you lights may blink on and off repeatedly, you keep recording and keep from repeated power cycling of your device. Many also protects against brown outs.

IMHO, anything with a HD should be on a UPS.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

comma said:


> Here's a noob question about these devices with a TiVo:
> 
> The primary (only?) way to restart your TiVo is by powercycling it (i.e. unplugging the power cord from the back of the TiVo and then plugging it back in), right?
> 
> So if that is the TiVo-approved method and doesn't hurt the TiVo (unless you do it all the time, I suppose), why would a power outage harm anything?


(You can reboot from one of the TiVo menus. OTOH if you need to reboot there's a chance it's because you can't use the menus)
But there's still a difference between power off, wait a couple seconds, power on and random power fluctuations where it gives less than full voltage (UPS will kick onto battery to provide full voltage) or repeatedly cuts out for very short times.

I believe the later is more potentially damaging than just cleanly removing all the power and the cleanly reapplying 100% power.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Jonathan_S said:


> (You can reboot from one of the TiVo menus. OTOH if you need to reboot there's a chance it's because you can use the menus)
> But there's still a difference between power off, wait a couple seconds, power on and random power fluctuations where it gives less than full voltage (UPS will kick onto battery to provide full voltage) or repeatedly cuts out for very short times.
> 
> I believe the later is more potentially damaging than just cleanly removing all the power and the cleanly reapplying 100% power.


You are correct. It has the potential to corrupt data and increase the likelihood of drive failure. And all it takes is a one second power outage to miss the last couple minutes of a show - or that crucial moment you've been waiting all season to see. Or the last two mins of the game to end all games.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

daveak said:


> When you power cycle, there is always a chance (no matter how small) of your hard drive not coming back. You are correct in saying it shouldn't hurt to do it sometimes, but if it occurs on a regular basis you can cuase yourself problems.


 Too many power cycles are destructive. Then we apply numbers. A disk drive is rated for 100,000 power cycles. That is power cycling seven days every day for ... 39 years. Suddenly destructive power cycling has a whole new perspective. Too many hours of operation may do more harm.

Power off to all disk drives is always unexpected. A drive is never told that power will turn off. A disk drive's computer first learns about power off when voltages start dropping. So the drive finishes what it is doing and prepared for power off. That is how disk drives worked even when hundreds of pounds in big floor mounted boxes.

Unexpected power off does not harm hardware. To disk drives, all power off are unexpected. But a complete file (recording) may not be saved as daveak noted. A UPS is for protecting unsaved data. Does not do hardware protection.

Notice how a conclusion changes 180 degrees as soon as we add spec numbers.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

westom said:


> Too many power cycles are destructive. Then we apply numbers. A disk drive is rated for 100,000 power cycles. That is power cycling seven days every day for ... 39 years. Suddenly destructive power cycling has a whole new perspective. Too many hours of operation may do more harm.
> 
> Power off to all disk drives is always unexpected. A drive is never told that power will turn off. A disk drive's computer first learns about power off when voltages start dropping. So the drive finishes what it is doing and prepared for power off. That is how disk drives worked even when hundreds of pounds in big floor mounted boxes.
> 
> ...


Regardless of your un-cited spec, there are many reasons a person will want to use a UPS. And yes, a UPS can provide some hardware protection - though you are right - data (IMHO) is the best reason to use a UPS. Why miss it or have it corrupted?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

daveak said:


> Regardless of your un-cited spec, there are many reasons a person will want to use a UPS. And yes, a UPS can provide some hardware protection - though you are right - data (IMHO) is the best reason to use a UPS. Why miss it or have it corrupted?


I think his point is that there are a lot of myths surrounding power-cycling of devices. For example, I've often been told the myth that it's safer to leave a computer powered up all the time than to shut it off at night. I don't believe that one for a second. These myths have a way of becoming fact after being repeated enough times.

A properly designed modern computer, particularly a piece of consumer electronics like a Tivo, should be able to tolerate unexpected power failures without damage to the device or corruption of existing data. If it doesn't then there's a flaw in the device. The last time I experienced data loss from an unexpected power failure was back in the early 1990s and was my own fault for setting up a very large write cache. We've come a long way since then (journaling filesystems, appropriate use of write caching, etc).

There's nothing wrong with protecting data that is very important to you (financial records, family photos, irreplaceable documents, etc) because even an extremely low probability event could have devastating effects. All we're talking about here is TV programming. We can live without it.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

smbaker said:


> I think his point is that there are a lot of myths surrounding power-cycling of devices. For example, I've often been told the myth that it's safer to leave a computer powered up all the time than to shut it off at night. I don't believe that one for a second. These myths have a way of becoming fact after being repeated enough times.
> 
> A properly designed modern computer, particularly a piece of consumer electronics like a Tivo, should be able to tolerate unexpected power failures without damage to the device or corruption of existing data. If it doesn't then there's a flaw in the device. The last time I experienced data loss from an unexpected power failure was back in the early 1990s and was my own fault for setting up a very large write cache. We've come a long way since then (journaling filesystems, appropriate use of write caching, etc).
> 
> There's nothing wrong with protecting data that is very important to you (financial records, family photos, irreplaceable documents, etc) because even an extremely low probability event could have devastating effects. All we're talking about here is TV programming. We can live without it.


I prefer not to have my watching interrupted by power glitches or risk data corruption on my raid array. That is my reasoning. Others have others. Certainly one does not have to have a UPS, but I think it is a good option IMHO.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

daveak said:


> I prefer not to have my watching interrupted by power glitches or risk data corruption on my raid array. That is my reasoning.


 Nobody is questioning your reasoning. Challenged are claims that a UPS solves other problems. A UPS is only for uninterrupted power during a blackout. To only do that one thing you want it for. So that unsaved data is not lost. Or so that one need not wait for a reboot. Nothing more.

smbaker's post revives so many memories. I have been doing this stuff for so long that, well, if an 8 inch floppy was left in some drives, then power on erased that floppy. It was acceptable back then. Today hardware must be so much more reliable.

Bankruptcy got rid of many poor hardware manufacturers.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

smbaker said:


> hate the damn things. Every time I've used a UPS it's been more trouble than it's worth (battery replacement, batteries burning up / emitting toxic fumes, UPS shutting down due to bad batteries on a minor brownout, inability to deliver promised wattage or runtime, etc).


Wow- I have never had any of those problems at home. Batteries seem to last about 4 or 5 years, too. Mine will do a self test every X number of days, when it fails the test, it just gives a warning. Replacement is easy. I would never be caught dead without one.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

KenVa said:


> I keep thinking I should have my tivos on a UPS, but I have one question for those of you that do. Do all or most UPSs restart when the power returns after the power has been out for long enough to fully drain the battery and it has shutdown. I fear that when I'm away there could be a long power outage and tivos would never come back up to do scheduled recordings.


My APC will come back automatically if it is fully depleted and power returns. But it is a good question and not all units will act the same.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

westom said:


> A UPS does (and only claims to do) one thing. Provide temporary and 'dirtiest' power during a blackout.


That is a generalization that is incorrect. It absolutely depends on the quality of the unit. Mine at work provides true sine wave power that is self adjusted to exact voltage and frequency. It is as clean or cleaner than power delivered by the power company. But the cheapy units often provide temporary power that is dirtier.



> To keep the Tivo recording during a blackout. The UPS is only power during blackouts. Does nothing else. Read its spec numbers.


Again, that depends on the unit. My quality ones also provide brownout protection, frequency protection, noise filtering, and spike protection far beyond most power strips. You get what you pay for. But I do agree you should read and understand the specs.



> As another noted, a UPS is so cheap as to have a three year life expectancy. Once its battery dies, then its only function ends.


Um, yet again, that depends on the unit. My batteries tend to live about 4 years. And when they are replaced, the unit functions just as well for another 4 years.



> BTW, if your cable or other incoming wires (ie telephone) are also not properly earthed, then all protection is compromised.


No, SOME of the protection is compromised, but it is a good point. At my house, I tested the cable company's ground to make sure it was valid/quality. But a surge could still come through. In my case, it would only affect the devices connected directly to cable (which would affect the TiVo, of course.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

daveak said:


> You are correct. It has the potential to corrupt data and increase the likelihood of drive failure.


Totally agreed. Here, at least, it is VERY common to have several small power failures in a row. And the TiVo is probably most vulnerable during startup, which is when it would most likely see yet another power failure. It is more of an issue with the filesystem, less with the hard drive itself.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

smbaker said:


> I think his point is that there are a lot of myths surrounding power-cycling of devices. For example, I've often been told the myth that it's safer to leave a computer powered up all the time than to shut it off at night.


Thermal cycling of computer type electronics is a lot of stress. After 25 years of experience with the stuff, I can safely say that it is not a myth. This is not to say that a few power cycles are going to "hurt" the electronics, but having a computer up to operating temp then turning it off every day and letting it cool to room temp and then turning it back on, over and over, will absolutely shorten the life of the system vs. leaving it on continuously. I have hundreds and hundreds of machines in various configurations, across many years that indicate this to be true. However, in some cases it might not matter because the equipment would have been obsolete anyway, and the power savings over those years could have paid a good chunk of any upgrade cost.



> The last time I experienced data loss from an unexpected power failure was back in the early 1990s and was my own fault for setting up a very large write cache. We've come a long way since then (journaling filesystems, appropriate use of write caching, etc).


I wish I could say the same. The most likely cause of data appears to be when the drive is starting to fail and is in the middle of swapping in spare sectors and is then power cycled in the middle of that. Although I do agree that things have gotten a lot better. But all my systems (which of course, run Linux) have been using journaling filesystems for many years.



> There's nothing wrong with protecting data that is very important to you (financial records, family photos, irreplaceable documents, etc) because even an extremely low probability event could have devastating effects.


Yep. No amount of UPS, controls, RAID, or other methods is a substitute for separate backups!!!


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

westom said:


> smbaker's post revives so many memories. I have been doing this stuff for so long that, well, if an 8 inch floppy was left in some drives, then power on erased that floppy.


floppies? you had floppies?! I had software on cassette tapes to deal with!  Yes, it does bring back memories of the good ol' days, back when useful applications could run in 16kb of memory.

I think people take a lot for granted with today's electronics which are really very reliable. I could yank the power from my windows machine right now and the only thing I'd lose is this response I'm typing.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

crxssi said:


> Thermal cycling of computer type electronics is a lot of stress. After 25 years of experience with the stuff, I can safely say that it is not a myth. This is not to say that a few power cycles are going to "hurt" the electronics, but having a computer up to operating temp then turning it off every day and letting it cool to room temp and then turning it back on, over and over, will absolutely shorten the life of the system vs. leaving it on continuously.


 Good luck trying finding any engineering facts to support that popular myth. If power cycling is so destructive, then constant powering cycling by each transistor must destroy it. How to reduce number of power cycles? Power it off.

They powered off a computer that worked fine for months. It would not restart. Observation proved power cycling was destructive. Then I did an engineering analysis. A bootstrap resistor has only one purpose. To provide power to a regulator during startup. Due to too many hours of operation, that pullup resistor failed. Computer would not start due to too many hours of operation. Observation blamed power cycling.

If you know thermal cycling is destructive, then cite an engineering datasheet, numbers, or electronic principle that says so.

Semiconductors are thermal cycled many hundreds of degrees (almost 1000 degrees F) during manufacturing without damage. Why would cycling tens of degrees be destructive? It isn't. Major temperature changes during power cycling is a popular myth promoted only by speculation. Power cycling causes near zero temperature changes. Your failures are typical of what happens after too many hours of operation. Your conclusions are typical of proof only from observation. Also called junk science. To have a fact, provide hard facts with numbers. 
25 years of technician work? Numbers from others here say you were only an infant when we were doing this stuff. Damage by power cycling was always the popular myth based in junk science reasoning.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

crxssi said:


> That is a generalization that is incorrect. It absolutely depends on the quality of the unit. Mine at work provides true sine wave power that is self adjusted to exact voltage and frequency. It is as clean or cleaner than power delivered by the power company.


So your UPS is $1000? Meanwhile all that cleaning is completely undone by how a power supply works. Why does a typical UPS output power so 'dirty'? Because 'dirtiest' power is made irrelevant by what electronic power supplies do. No matter how clean or dirty that input power, a Tivo's DC voltage remain just as rock solid clean.

Why would the OP spend so much money on UPS that does nothing useful for his Tivo?


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## KungFuCow (May 6, 2004)

I work in IT support and Ive seen the havok a lightning strike can bring. I have all of my electronics plugged into a UPS, not for the backup time but for the protection.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

KungFuCow said:


> I work in IT support and Ive seen the havok a lightning strike can bring. I have all of my electronics plugged into a UPS, not for the backup time but for the protection.


Unless it's a double conversion UPS, then it's probably not doing anything more for lightning strikes than a simple isolation transformer (assuming it's line-interactive UPS. A cheap standby UPS probably does nothing at all).

That's not to say an isolation transformer isn't a useful thing to have in the case of a lightning strike. It just seems overkill to hang a battery, charger, and inverter off of it.


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

Well, had a couple of second or two power interrupts today. Nothing hiccuped or rebooted and I didn't lose my in process recording of NASCAR's Fontana Cup race. So I still think it's worth the maybe $300/5 year I spend the on the UPS. 

As to the dirty power comments....I rather think they're misleading. Output on battery for low buck APC units certainly isn't pure, sine wave quality, but it is stable and not really dirty in any other sense.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

ltxi said:


> As to the dirty power comments....I rather think they're misleading. Output on battery for low buck APC units certainly isn't pure, sine wave quality, but it is stable and not really dirty in any other sense.


 I have no idea why one would spend $300 for a UPS. 'Dirty' is a relative term. A $100 UPS output voltage (in battery backup mode) can be so 'dirty' as to harm power strip protectors or small electric motors. That $100 (or $60) UPS is sufficient (more than clean enough) for all electronics.

Apparently two facts are not being grasped. First, electronics contain so much protection - are so robust - as to consider the world's 'dirtiest' UPS output as perfectly 'clean' power.

Second, a typical UPS does not 'clean' electricity. Its cleanest output is when it connects an appliance directly to AC mains. What any UPS - even a $1000 one - might do is already done better inside electronics. Before making rock solid low voltage DC, electronics convert that AC power to much higher DC voltages. Convert that DC to radio waves. Every conversion is preceeded and succeeded by filters. Electronics make that power much more 'dirty' before creating rock solid 'clean' DC voltages.

If a double conversion UPS can provide any protection, well, protection equal or superior to double conversions UPSes already exists inside electronics. Protection that must withstand over1000 volts without damage. Energy that will might blow through electronics (and a double conversion UPS), instead, must be earthed before entering the building.

Output from a typical 120 volt UPS. 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Potentially harmful to power strip protectors and small electric motors. And perfectly ideal (stable) to electronics. UPS has only one purpose. To provide temporary and 'dirty' power.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

westom said:


> I have no idea why one would spend $300 for a UPS. 'Dirty' is a relative term. ............


Well I didn't spend $300 but I spent around $250 each for my nine 1500XL units with the extended runtime batteries. With the extended runtime batteries I get between 2 hours and 19 hours of runtime during a power outage depending on what components I have connected to each UPS. So I can continue to watch TV normally for 2 to 3 hours with my LED DLP, TiVos, receiver, subwoofer etc during a power outage. Or so my INTERNET connection and fire/burglar alarm stays up for 19 hours so I'm still protected. And can also use my PCs or game systems for several hours.

I want to be able to continue using my electronics like normal during a power outage. Which is what these units with extended runtime batteries do. I also have smaller 1000VA and 500VA units for specific devices, like my cordless phone system, my nine IP cameras, Wireless Access points, alarm clocks etc.

I've been using UPSs for over 15 years at home. First with my PCs in the mid 90's and then with all my electronics. They have not caused any issues with my devices.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

I have my 2 Tivos, computer w/ my RAID, and one LCD monitor on the battery side of my UPS. I'm not at all looking to run for any duration during a long outage. I just don't want these things rebooting all the time when the power fluctuates or goes out for just a few seconds or few minutes, which is much more common than long outages in my area. I've got it configured so my computer will shut down after 5 minutes on battery power. I prefer a controlled shutdown to just cutting power to my computer (XP). I've just got a cheap APC 550 (~$50, IIRC).

In the past month, my UPC has kicked in twice for very short duration (seconds) outages, but it kept my Tivos and computer from rebooting. I, however, had to reset the clock on the microwave. 

If Tivos could reboot as fast as my computer (<1 minute) I wouldn't mind them rebooting, but it takes forever (TivoHD w/ 1Tb, and S2DT). I prefer not to miss 10 minutes of a recording because of a 1 second power glitch.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Anyone still reading this thread (obviously a glutton for punishment) should really enjoy this one:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=462214

23 posts there by westom -- somehow his message just doesn't soak in.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

smbaker said:


> -1
> 
> hate the damn things. Every time I've used a UPS it's been more trouble than it's worth (battery replacement, batteries burning up / emitting toxic fumes, UPS shutting down due to bad batteries on a minor brownout, inability to deliver promised wattage or runtime, etc). My experiences do tend to differ from most, who seem highly in favor of the UPS. For me, it's just yet another device consuming power, emitting waste heat, and costing money to prevent against a relatively unimportant problem. It's just TV -- I can replace a lost program easily enough.
> 
> In my decade plus of Tivo ownership, including ownership in Arizona where lightning/thunderstorms and power outages are common during monsoon season, I've never had a Tivo in any way damaged by a power outage.


Please describe as exactly as you can those fumes.

Thank you in advance for your reply.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> With the APC units you can use the powerchute software to configure the UPS from the USB connection and a PC. You can select what level for the UPS to come on after the battery has been discharged. You can also select the high and low voltage point that the batteries kick in. AS well as not having an alarm go off everytime it's running on batteries.
> 
> Without that option it would be pretty loud with the 12+ APC UPSs I'm using.
> 
> I've been running these for many years with no problems. Except years ago when I had an old 32" tube set on on one. The power supply was going in the TV and it blew the capacitors in the UPS. APC replaced it under warranty, and then it happened again as soon as I got the replacement. This is when i realized that something was wrong with the TV. It had been used with a UPS for many years with no issues. APC again repaced the UPS under warranty and I had the power supply replaced in the TV,


Are you saying that the powerchute software will let me disable the beeps that tell me that the power is out (because I'm too stupid to notice that everything in the house that isn't on a UPS isn't working)?

That would be so nice.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

crxssi said:


> ...
> 
> Yep. No amount of UPS, controls, RAID, or other methods is a substitute for separate backups!!!


And if you don't have off-site back-up, you don't really have back-up.


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## justen_m (Jan 15, 2004)

unitron said:


> Are you saying that the powerchute software will let me disable the beeps that tell me that the power is out (because I'm too stupid to notice that everything in the house that isn't on a UPS isn't working)?
> 
> That would be so nice.


Mine does. With the software (APC PowerChute Personal Edition), there is a notification tab with the following options.
1) enable alarm at all times
2) disable alarm at all times
3) disable alarm when PC is off or hibernated
or between the hours of xx:xx:xx and xx:xx:xx


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

dlfl said:


> Anyone still reading this thread (obviously a glutton for punishment) should really enjoy this one:
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=462214
> 
> 23 posts there by westom -- somehow his message just doesn't soak in.


Thanks for the link. I guess I am a glutton for punishment. And I'm still a believer in the benefits of using a UPS, partly because power is not always clean, but mostly because power outages are almost never clean.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

unitron said:


> Please describe as exactly as you can those fumes.


It's been a while, but I think the best description would be 'acidic', like sulfuric acid. It was a strong odor that burned my eyes and nose a bit when getting near the thing. The UPS was also extraordinarily hot to the touch. It was so hot that upon noticing the problem, I pulled it and threw it outside to let it cool off because I was afraid something in there could start a fire.

I later disassembled it so I could take the carcass to the recycler as they don't like lead-acid batteries mixed in with electronics. I found both batteries were so badly swollen they that could not be easily removed from the UPS. I had to use a hammer and chisel to modify the UPS case to get them out. No visible acid spillover, just bloated swollen batteries. The batteries' plastic was kinda molten-looking, like plastic that got hot. Both batteries in the UPS had identical deformities. Unfortunately, I do not require the brand of the batteries, nor whether or not it was an official battery upgrade or an aftermarket. Seems like they were only a few years old though.

The UPS itself was a APC rack-mount unit, probably in the 1500 watt range. Had a lot of problems with that generation of APC rack-mounts going through frequent battery failures. The most common symptom was that a UPS would immediately shut off on a brownout without warning. Only one of them had this fuming issue.

Out of curiosity, what's your interest in the acrid battery fumes? Having a similar issue?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

dlfl said:


> 23 posts there by westom -- somehow his message just doesn't soak in.


I haven't read that thread lately, but his opinions in this thread seem dead on. One needs to know how the devices work in order to understand what protection they provide and clearly he does, at least more so than most.

There's three primary different kinds of UPS -- standby, line-interactive, and double-conversion. In the common case while line power is being supplied, each one is going to put more components on the path between the the power company and the computer. If a person is concerned about lightning strikes, as several people in this thread are, then it's critical to understand what type of UPS you have. It's not useful to just assume that because one has a UPS that it's going to soak up lightning like a sponge.

The only device I've ever personally seen damaged by a lightning strike was a cheap unregulated wall-wart. The lightning took out a diode on the output side of the wall-wart. If it can do that, then it can probably spike right through an isolation transformer and hit the switchmode power supply of an attached computer.

As far as providing "cleaner" power (brownouts, etc), it's also important to know what kind of UPS you have and what kind of spikes it might induce during a brownout. A standby UPS is going to incur switching time and at least in my experience is more disruptive to the device being powered than the actual brownout. A line-interactive UPS with an autotransformer may still incur some switching time. Modern electronics are designed to tolerate minor brownouts and noise and to do it more efficiently than the UPS.

Finally, while the line-interactive and double-conversion UPSs might offer some protection, they're going to do so at less efficiency in the common case. Higher electric bill and more waste heat produced. Pulling up a google result at random, an APC Back-UPS 1500VA, efficiency ranges from 90% at 10% load to 97% at 50% load. The person with a house full of UPSs may well have a base electric bill 10% higher than the person without, not considering the additional air conditioning load required during the winter.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

smbaker said:


> It's been a while, but I think the best description would be 'acidic', like sulfuric acid. It was a strong odor that burned my eyes and nose a bit when getting near the thing. The UPS was also extraordinarily hot to the touch. It was so hot that upon noticing the problem, I pulled it and threw it outside to let it cool off because I was afraid something in there could start a fire.
> 
> I later disassembled it so I could take the carcass to the recycler as they don't like lead-acid batteries mixed in with electronics. I found both batteries were so badly swollen they that could not be easily removed from the UPS. I had to use a hammer and chisel to modify the UPS case to get them out. No visible acid spillover, just bloated swollen batteries. The batteries' plastic was kinda molten-looking, like plastic that got hot. Both batteries in the UPS had identical deformities. Unfortunately, I do not require the brand of the batteries, nor whether or not it was an official battery upgrade or an aftermarket. Seems like they were only a few years old though.
> 
> ...


The past 2 or 3 years (and mainly during the winter months it seems) I've had intermittent bouts, lasting only a few minutes each time, of a very acrid smell, sometimes almost eyewatering, but I've never been able to "sniff out" the location of origin. At first it happened here at the computer, where I've got computer, monitor, other computer, television, Tivo, and at least one UPS all in one corner, but later it showed up in other parts of the house (although mostly in the room with the main TV, where there are also UPS'es, including one for the telephone and cell phone charger.

I suspected the electronics in general, and perhaps "capacitor disease" in particular, but, as I say, I could never find the source. It wouldn't last long enough to move around to find stonger and weaker areas of it.

Before it got to the "almost strong enough to bring tears to my eyes" stage (maybe once out of every 5 or 10 times), I'd even wondered if it might be some sort of olfactory hallucination, having smelled it briefly a time or two while in the car and nowhere near the house, but I don't think I can hallucinate quite that vividly.

Also, I think we've had mice for a while, but only recently a population explosion of them (which I think I've ended), and I wondered if it might be a whiff of mouse urine or excrement I was catching, which would have come from the attic or crawlspace, making it non-directional to a degree.

I've since detected a "musky" smell I'm almost certain was mouse related, but it was nothing like what I'm wondering might be the UPS smell.

Also during the past few years a heat pump technician smelled out "dying of heat and old age" circuit breakers in a panel board on an outside wall, and I've been wondering if it might have been from that or leaking freon, but the panel board, meter base, and all the breakers outdoors were replaced at least a year ago, and the heat pump (which is only 37 years old  ) seems to be holding pressure.

If the smell were coming from something actually breaking down, I'd think it would have broken down by now, so it's a bit of a mystery (and I'd like to be sure there's nothing going on that's going to catch the house on fire).

I do have some experience with what failed electronic components/overheated wires smells like, but this isn't exactly that.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

unitron said:


> The past 2 or 3 years (and mainly during the winter months it seems) I've had intermittent bouts, lasting only a few minutes each time, of a very acrid smell, sometimes almost eyewatering, but I've never been able to "sniff out" the location of origin.


The lead acid batteries are supposed to be sealed, but one always has doubts. In my case the failure of the batteries was catastrophic and finding the problem was obvious. Another hour or two and the battery cases probably would have burst and then there would have been a real mess to deal with.

Back when I ran a UPS in the computer in the bedroom I did notice the occasional odd smell coming from it, usually during brownouts when it would transfer over for a minute or two, which smelled to me like capacitor issues or possibly like dust burning off of components that are getting warm. Those smells weren't irritating, but they were enough to arouse mild suspicion. IIRC, the APC UPSs that I used back then had some pretty large electrolytic capacitors in them, and electrolytics don't always age gracefully.

Anyhow, good luck in your search to find the culprit.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

smbaker said:


> The lead acid batteries are supposed to be sealed, but one always has doubts. In my case the failure of the batteries was catastrophic and finding the problem was obvious. Another hour or two and the battery cases probably would have burst and then there would have been a real mess to deal with.


That sounds like overcharging due to some sort of failure in the charging circuitry, doesn't it?



smbaker said:


> Back when I ran a UPS in the computer in the bedroom I did notice the occasional odd smell coming from it, usually during brownouts when it would transfer over for a minute or two, which smelled to me like capacitor issues or possibly like dust burning off of components that are getting warm. Those smells weren't irritating, but they were enough to arouse mild suspicion. IIRC, the APC UPSs that I used back then had some pretty large electrolytic capacitors in them, and electrolytics don't always age gracefully.


Whenever I smell that toasty electronics smell, I think it's probably a resistor carrying too much current. Electrolytic capacitors certainly have more aging problems, and they can spill their guts all over everything, but have you ever definitively traced a burning smell to one?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

L David Matheny said:


> That sounds like overcharging due to some sort of failure in the charging circuitry, doesn't it?


Could have also been a cell in one of the batteries that shorted, thus delivering more current to the other cells. The batteries were connected in series, so that would have caused all of the remaining cells to be overcharged. It's too bad I didn't take a little more time to investigate, but I really just wanted the miserable thing gone. 



L David Matheny said:


> Whenever I smell that toasty electronics smell, I think it's probably a resistor carrying too much current. Electrolytic capacitors certainly have more aging problems, and they can spill their guts all over everything, but have you ever definitively traced a burning smell to one?


Most of the burning resistors that I smell have a more "burning" odor to them than a chemical odor. I've burned enough resistors and other components (mosfets, semiconductors, etc) to know what most of those things smell like. There's something else with a more chemical odor to it, which I'm blaming on capacitors.

Seems like I blew up a capacitor last year (by accidentally applying voltage beyond the limit) in some kind of kit, but silly me, I forgot to smell it afterward.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

windracer said:


> I think you'll find a lot of people here use UPSes with their TiVos (here's an old poll thread from 2009).
> ...........





janry said:


> Absolutely. Won't plug in a TiVo without one.





L David Matheny said:


> ........ And I'm still a believer in the benefits of using a UPS, partly because power is not always clean, but mostly because power outages are almost never clean.





smbaker said:


> ........ One needs to know how the devices work in order to understand what protection they provide and clearly he does, at least more so than most.
> ...........


All one needs to know about a UPS for TiVo's is get the cheapest APC Back UPS unit that will handle your needs. All this detailed quasi-technical discussion, and war stories about burning components and floppy drives, may be interesting (to a few) but not relevant to that basic issue.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Also make sure to get one where the alarm can be disabled. All my APC units have the alarms disabled otherwise it would be very annoying when the power is out hearing alarms from all the APC units I have.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> All one needs to know about a UPS for TiVo's is get the cheapest APC Back UPS unit that will handle your needs.


Which is why a $60 UPS is often more than sufficient for most users.

Sealed lead acid (SLA) batteries have a weakness unique to that technology. Some ballpark numbers. If left sitting without a recharge for 3 months, it will tend to self discharge. A SLA battery left discharged has, unfortunatley, a nasty habit of no longer holding a charge.

Care of a UPS means a UPS must be permitted to recharge its battery at least once a month. IOW these items do not store well. Once used, a UPS is best in use constantly to protect SLA battery life expectancy. Left discharged for many days tends to permenently damage an SLA battery.

A footnote for care and feeding of UPS batteries.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

dlfl said:


> All one needs to know about a UPS for TiVo's is get the cheapest APC Back UPS unit that will handle your needs.


If you just want to spend money, then depositing it into my paypal account would be as wise an investment. Remember when you buy the "cheapest" of something, you get exactly what you pay for. Perhaps I'm a more informed shopper than most, but I like to understand what I'm buying before I buy it.



westom said:


> Care of a UPS means a UPS must be permitted to recharge its battery at least once a month.


Don't most of them (event he cheapest) recharge automatically as long as line power is present?


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

smbaker said:


> Don't most of them (event he cheapest) recharge automatically as long as line power is present?


 Yes. A UPS connected to AC mains is connected to a tiny recharger if its main power switch is on. But if that UPS is put aside for a few months of temporary storage (or left switched off), then a self discharge can become permanent. The battery may appear to recharge. But will quickly discharge after providing power for a short time (if at all).

As you may have noted, a best test is to disconnect a UPS power cord. It should provide sufficient power from its battery to an adjacent computer for at least a full minute. A failed SLA might provide power even for as much as a few seconds.

Left discharged for too long is destructive to a SLA battery. It has a short shelf life. It self discharges quickly.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

westom said:


> As you may have noted, a best test is to disconnect a UPS power cord.


Ha! The last cheap UPS I purchased (a tripplite, last year from costco, maybe the year before) said to absolutely not do this. I forget the cited reason, but it was probably something about inducing ground loops since the equipment connected would no longer be grounded through the power supply but might instead seek ground through a communication cable. I, of course, unplugged it anyway. It's the only way to be really sure.

Anyhow, that UPS lasted about two weeks until a brownout caused it to trip, go into overload mode (even though at a fraction of the claimed rated wattage), shut down, and remain off. Thus, the equipment plugged into the UPS suffered a shutdown, and all the other equipment in the house remained on. Yet another cautionary tale for cheap UPS units. Fortunately costco has a good return policy.



westom said:


> Left discharged for too long is destructive to a SLA battery. It has a short shelf life. It self discharges quickly.


Yep, done this a few times. Just wasn't sure if that's what you were getting at before, or that they needed some special care above and beyond leaving them powered on.


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

The reason I use a UPS isn't to keep recording. If I'm home when the power goes out, I wait a minute, maybe two just to make sure the power isn't coming right back, then I pull the plug even if something is being recorded. OK, I may wait a few more minutes if I know what is being recorded will be over shortly.

The real reason I use a UPS is keep the TiVo from being subjected to the flickers we have. When we lose power, it usually goes off, back on and off and on. That just has to be bad for a TiVo.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> All one needs to know about a UPS for TiVo's is get the cheapest APC Back UPS unit that will handle your needs..........





smbaker said:


> If you just want to spend money, then depositing it into my paypal account would be as wise an investment. Remember when you buy the "cheapest" of something, you get exactly what you pay for. Perhaps I'm a more informed shopper than most, but I like to understand what I'm buying before I buy it. .....


Don't hold your breath waiting for that PayPal deposit. 

If you have a specific argument or facts indicating the APC Back UPS units (which are the cheapest APC line) are not adequate for TiVo's, please give them. Otherwise I have to doubt that you are truly an "informed shopper" on this topic.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

dlfl said:


> If you have a specific argument or facts indicating the APC Back UPS units (which are the cheapest APC line) are not adequate for TiVo's, please give them. Otherwise I have to doubt that you are truly an "informed shopper" on this topic.


Scroll up.  If you want to read the details, they're all up there. People don't want to know how their UPS works or what parts are inside of it. They'd rather just make assumptions as if it were a magic black box where bad power (and lightning!) goes in and good power always comes out (minus the lightning).


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

dlfl said:


> If you have a specific argument or facts indicating the APC Back UPS units (which are the cheapest APC line) are not adequate for TiVo's, please give them. .......





smbaker said:


> Scroll up.  If you want to read the details, they're all up there. People don't want to know how their UPS works or what parts are inside of it. They'd rather just make assumptions as if it were a magic black box where bad power (and lightning!) goes in and good power always comes out (minus the lightning).


 Scrolling up doesn't reveal any details showing that APC Back UPS units are not adequate for TiVo's. Why should most people want to delve into the details of how their UPS works, when they can rely on their own experience and that of many posters on this forum (facts not assumptions) indicating good performance of the Back UPS models?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

smbaker said:


> Scroll up.  If you want to read the details, they're all up there. People don't want to know how their UPS works or what parts are inside of it. They'd rather just make assumptions as if it were a magic black box where bad power (and lightning!) goes in and good power always comes out (minus the lightning).


I don't know, lightning seems like pretty good power to me!

Especially if you need a lot of it applied in a very short time to a particular point.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Why should most people want to delve into the details of how their UPS works, when they can rely on their own experience and that of many posters on this forum (facts not assumptions) indicating good performance of the Back UPS models?


What experiences? The fact that someone attached a UPS to a Tivo and it was not damaged by lightning? I could attach a tomato to my Tivo, conclude that the Tivo was not damaged by lightning and therefore conclude that a tomato is an effective form of lightning arrestor. The tomato must have also cleaned up the power, because the Tivo is not experiencing any symptoms of dirty power contamination. In fact, I'll consider this a _Green Solution_, well at least if it was a green tomato. I'll apply to the federal government's green energy programs to get funding for my tomato farming.

I never claimed that an APC UPS was not sufficient to provide standby power for a Tivo during a failure. It probably does that just fine. What I fail to see any proof of is that the UPS does any of these other things, or that Tivo for some reason requires a UPS to function properly (in the words of one poster, "_Won't plug in a TiVo without one._").

Normally, if someone asked me to buy a magic black box that would make my Tivo work better, I would want to know _why_ this box makes it better. I wouldn't take the assumption that it does, and then require others to explain why it does not.

After this discussion, I think I'm in the mood to buy some really thick 1/0 gauge wire to hook up my speakers. I know it'll make them sound better. Really, it will. The company says so.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

westom said:


> If power cycling is so destructive, then constant powering cycling by each transistor must destroy it.


That is not the same as thermal cycling.



> Your conclusions are typical of proof only from observation. Also called junk science.


Believe what you like, I am speaking from experience as an IT professional.



> To have a fact, provide hard facts with numbers.


Back at you


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

smbaker said:


> ...a tomato is an effective form of lightning arrestor....


Insert "Fried Green Tomatoes" joke here.



> After this discussion, I think I'm in the mood to buy some really thick 1/0 gauge wire to hook up my speakers. I know it'll make them sound better. Really, it will. The company says so.


If you're only running 22 gauge wire to them right now, it just might.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

smbaker said:


> What experiences? The fact that someone attached a UPS to a Tivo and it was not damaged by lightning? I could attach a tomato to my Tivo, conclude that the Tivo was not damaged by lightning and therefore conclude that a tomato is an effective form of lightning arrestor. The tomato must have also cleaned up the power, because the Tivo is not experiencing any symptoms of dirty power contamination. In fact, I'll consider this a _Green Solution_, well at least if it was a green tomato. I'll apply to the federal government's green energy programs to get funding for my tomato farming.
> 
> I never claimed that an APC UPS was not sufficient to provide standby power for a Tivo during a failure. It probably does that just fine. What I fail to see any proof of is that the UPS does any of these other things, or that Tivo for some reason requires a UPS to function properly (in the words of one poster, "_Won't plug in a TiVo without one._").
> 
> ...


This thread has become a repeat of the tiresome and obscure debate played out in the **other thread** that I mentioned in post #40, with you playing westom's role. Much as it irritates you two, there is a consensus of many people here -- who are not technically incompetent despite your insinuations -- that APC Back UPS products provide backup power and some degree of surge and lightning protection. In such a situation it actually does fall on you to "explain why it does not". And neither of you have met this challenge in either thread. All we get are assertions of superior knowledge that should not be questioned.

I think you could benefit from some deep thought therapy **here**.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Much as it irritates you two, there is a consensus of many people here -- who are not technically incompetent despite your insinuations -- that APC Back UPS products provide backup power and some degree of surge and lightning protection.


It doesn't irritate me in the least. As I said, a tomato may provide some degree of surge and lightning protection too. It all depends on how you quantify the word some. People can take from the discussion as they please. Some may purchase a UPS simply because $60 is a small price to pay for something that _might_ protect their Tivo. I'm not sure why you're saying that I implied that people are "technically incompetent". Nor am I sure why you're taking such a stand specifically in favor of APC and only APC's UPSs. There are many other cheap UPSs that people may choose.

Those 1/0 speaker wires might provide some degree of better sound than the 18ga ones I have now. I can probably find all kinds of reviews and testimonials about how much better the heavy speaker wire sounds. Maybe it would behoove me to learn a little more about electronics before forking out my money.

I just don't understand the advocacy of ignorance. Accurate information is so easy to come by on the internet (just use google or wikipedia to learn about different types of UPS). It's like saying "I want to buy a car but don't tell me what kind of engine is in it." Why not? Is there something you're afraid of learning?

And why have we taken to underlining various random words in these posts?


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

smbaker said:


> It doesn't irritate me in the least. As I said, a tomato may provide some degree of surge and lightning protection too. It all depends on how you quantify the word some. People can take from the discussion as they please. Some may purchase a UPS simply because $60 is a small price to pay for something that _might_ protect their Tivo. I'm not sure why you're saying that I implied that people are "technically incompetent". Nor am I sure why you're taking such a stand specifically in favor of APC and only APC's UPSs. There are many other cheap UPSs that people may choose.
> 
> Those 1/0 speaker wires might provide some degree of better sound than the 18ga ones I have now. I can probably find all kinds of reviews and testimonials about how much better the heavy speaker wire sounds. Maybe it would behoove me to learn a little more about electronics before forking out my money.
> 
> ...


Rave on..... Those who visited this thread for a practical recommendation of a UPS for TiVo have got their information and moved on I'm sure.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

dlfl said:


> Rave on..... Those who visited this thread for a practical recommendation of a UPS for TiVo have got their information and moved on I'm sure.


Rarely do threads cease once the practical information has been dispensed.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

smbaker said:


> I just don't understand the advocacy of ignorance. Accurate information is so easy to come by on the internet (just use google or wikipedia to learn about different types of UPS). It's like saying "I want to buy a car but don't tell me what kind of engine is in it." Why not? Is there something you're afraid of learning?
> 
> And why have we taken to underlining various random words in these posts?


Information on the Internet *YES* accurate information from the Internet, may not be so easy to tell just how accurate the information is.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I know a little about electricity. A UPS is not going to fully protect electronic devices. They are merely used to provide temporary power in the event of a power outage. Some may have surge protection or even a surge arrestor, but IME, nothing is exempt from a lightning strike. Your best bet there is lightning rods with grounded cables attached and a lightning arrestor on your electrical panel.
I agree with "you get what you pay for" as far as quality and options when it comes to a UPS.
Most electronics will work just fine on a cheap UPS. They take whatever AC voltage is available and convert it to DC anyway so it doesn't matter how "dirty" the sine wave is.
Other devices such as electric motors rely on the characteristics of the sine wave to operate efficiently so I could see how a cheap UPS would cause problems there. Plus, motors need a higher current to start and if the UPS is unable to deliver that current, the result is overload (think of a motor 'trying' to start, and the UPS 'trying' to provide the current needed -- stuck in a perpetual loop). Either/both will eventually fail.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

I would agree, a tomato will provide some form of protection against a lightening strike (maybe a small one a mile away). However, no matter how you do it, I surmise it will fail to provide power during an outage - even a small 1 second outage. The tomato certainly fails as a UPS and I would not suggest trying to run your TiVo off one (or any other device for that matter).


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

daveak said:


> However, no matter how you do it, I surmise it will fail to provide power during an outage - even a small 1 second outage.


*Wrong!*

One merely needs to consult youtube to find a tomato battery:






Unfortunately, we're going to need a very large array of tomatos (VLAoT) to construct a proper tomato-UPS. Hopefully someone in this forum is a tomato farmer.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> Rave on..... Those who visited this thread for a practical recommendation of a UPS for TiVo have got their information and moved on I'm sure.


 Why are so many challenging your repeated misinformation? 'Rave on' is you posting cheapshots because you cannot provide science. You say observation alone is sufficient to have knowledge. Mocking others makes it true?

A symptom of one most easily scammed:


> Why should most people want to delve into the details of how their UPS works, when they can rely on their own experience


 You make promoting spin or writing propaganda so much fun. Those who just know without first learning anything are the primary targets of scammers and manipulators. Your sentence demonstrates and endorses classic junk science reasoning. You even proved spontaneous reproduction. Knowledge only from observation is sufficient - your reasoning.

"Rave on" is demeaning commentary. Insults are sufficient as proof when you have nothing useful to post? Mockery told other that you only understand cheapshots - not simple science or what a UPS would do.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

crxssi said:


> Believe what you like, I am speaking from experience as an IT professional.


 IT Professional defined one who does not know how electricity works. Knows nothing about how transistors work. We have already established too few years as an IT professional means you are still wet behind the ears. Were not even born when others were already doing this stuff.

Heat created in a transistor is greatest when it switches. So hot that its PN junction will even emit a IR pulse. But you know otherwise because IT professionals need not know how electricity works; do not design hardware.

That paragraph says why switching may be more destructive. You know it is not because why? Because your are an IT professional? Nonsense. Demonstrated is that IT professionals will believe urban myths rather than learn science - or how transistors work.

Who you are proves nothing. Or demonstrates that IT professionals so easily believe popular hearsay.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

smbaker said:


> *Wrong!*
> 
> One merely needs to consult youtube to find a tomato battery:
> 
> ...


Is anyone working on tomato/potato hybrid batteries?

'Cause I know I've seen potatoes running digital clocks.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

westom said:


> IT Professional defined one who does not know how electricity works. Knows nothing about how transistors work. We have already established too few years as an IT professional means you are still wet behind the ears. Were not even born when others were already doing this stuff. ...[other mockery and insults deleted]...


I rarely say such things in forums, but you are an exception...

You are a combative, arrogant, assumptive a**hole. To me, this thread is now dead, so go ahead and flame away.


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

unitron said:


> If the smell were coming from something actually breaking down, I'd think it would have broken down by now, so it's a bit of a mystery (and I'd like to be sure there's nothing going on that's going to catch the house on fire).
> 
> I do have some experience with what failed electronic components/overheated wires smells like, but this isn't exactly that.


I'd wonder about the wiring in the house. Specifically how the wires are connected. What you describe could be arcing inside of wire nuts inside of junction or wall boxes. It often happens when the wires weren't twisted before going into the wire nuts and the connection works loose, causing an arc. It can also happen if there are copper and aluminum wires connected improperly. As the circuit gets used the wires heat up a bit and make the problem worse. This can DEFINITELY lead to an electrical fire.

I suggest you look into having an electrician go through all your wall switches, outlets and any junction boxes and double-check how they're connected. Yes, this will cost money. But it'll no doubt be less expensive than dealing with a house fire!


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

crxssi said:


> You are a combative, arrogant, assumptive a**hole.


Dude, get a mirror.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

wkearney99 said:


> I'd wonder about the wiring in the house. Specifically how the wires are connected. What you describe could be arcing inside of wire nuts inside of junction or wall boxes. It often happens when the wires weren't twisted before going into the wire nuts and the connection works loose, causing an arc. It can also happen if there are copper and aluminum wires connected improperly. As the circuit gets used the wires heat up a bit and make the problem worse. This can DEFINITELY lead to an electrical fire.
> 
> I suggest you look into having an electrician go through all your wall switches, outlets and any junction boxes and double-check how they're connected. Yes, this will cost money. But it'll no doubt be less expensive than dealing with a house fire!


I do thank you for your concern.

As it happens I rewired the attic last summer (which memory I'd managed to totally suppress until now-had to do it in the middle of the night because it was the attic and it was summer, and of course it's a low roof line so there's no place up there where you can actually stand up), and all the previous work I dismantled seemed to have been done moderately competently (although not as anal-retentive obsessive-compulsive as the way I would have done it), and I've replaced a few failed switches and a receptacle or two downstairs over the past several years and seen how well or not those were originally done (and that all the non-metallic sheathed cable used is copper), so I'm pretty sure I don't need to worry particularly about that, although I'll certainly keep it in mind.

This is really more of a chemical or perhaps biological smell than an electrical one.

Again, thank you for the reply.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

unitron said:


> This is really more of a chemical or perhaps biological smell than an electrical one.


 A simple test may 'sniff' out this suspect. Power a 'heavy current consumer' (ie 12 amp clothes iron) from a last receptacle on that circuit. Also power an incandescent bulb. If bulb intensity changes when the iron power cycles, then a wiring 'weakness' may exist. By simply powering that iron from various receptacles closer to the breaker box, then a possible wiring 'weakness' may be isolated.

Don't ignore that smell. No matter what, only a defect (a problem) definitely created the smell. A problem did not go away because the smell no longer exists. If a wiring defect exists and is dangerous, then that simple test often finds it.

Maybe a too obvious question. The house is only copper wire? No aluminum wire?


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## ltxi (Feb 14, 2010)

Well, guys....this has been fun. I was particularly intrigued by that arcing inside the wire nuts thing....only half joking as I have a 70's house built with copper clad Al wiring, appreciate the value of AlOx, and am initially an electronics tech by trade.

As to my last word on the UPS deal...multiple 500/550 APC units spread around the house serve me quite well. They handle the short term flux/outages. Anything long term is for the back-up generator to deal with.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

smbaker said:


> Rarely do threads cease once the practical information has been dispensed.


He He! This thread is certainly verifying that!


westom said:


> A simple test may 'sniff' out this suspect. Power a 'heavy current consumer' (ie 12 amp clothes iron) from a last receptacle on that circuit. Also power an incandescent bulb. If bulb intensity changes when the iron power cycles, then a wiring 'weakness' may exist. By simply powering that iron from various receptacles closer to the breaker box, then a possible wiring 'weakness' may be isolated.
> 
> Don't ignore that smell. No matter what, only a defect (a problem) definitely created the smell. A problem did not go away because the smell no longer exists. If a wiring defect exists and is dangerous, then that simple test often finds it.
> 
> Maybe a too obvious question. The house is only copper wire? No aluminum wire?


Good advice! I would note that incandescent bulb intensity varies as voltage to the 3.4 'th power (i.e., strongly), so it would not indicate a problem if the intensity decreased just slightly in the described test.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

westom said:


> Why are so many challenging your repeated misinformation? 'Rave on' is you posting cheapshots because you cannot provide science. You say observation alone is sufficient to have knowledge. Mocking others makes it true?
> 
> A symptom of one most easily scammed: You make promoting spin or writing propaganda so much fun. Those who just know without first learning anything are the primary targets of scammers and manipulators. Your sentence demonstrates and endorses classic junk science reasoning. You even proved spontaneous reproduction. Knowledge only from observation is sufficient - your reasoning.
> 
> "Rave on" is demeaning commentary. Insults are sufficient as proof when you have nothing useful to post? Mockery told other that you only understand cheapshots - not simple science or what a UPS would do.


And you don't consider your posts "demeaning" or "mocking" ? 

As I stated earlier, nothing new in this thread from Westom, see **this post** in the "other" TiVo UPS thread for my position on his posts on this topic.

And....... Rave on!


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## argusx (Dec 7, 2008)

westom said:


> Unexpected power off does not harm hardware. To disk drives, all power off are unexpected. But a complete file (recording) may not be saved as daveak noted. A UPS is for protecting unsaved data. Does not do hardware protection.


I'd disagree with that statement. UPS's are important for modern electronics. They filter out power spikes and brown-outs, providing clean sine-wave power curves, in addition to carrying load during black-outs. Unfiltered utility power can be VERY hard on power supplies, thus shorting their lives as well as anything that may be connected to them (i.e. hard drives and motherboards). UPS's DO provide hardware protection. Everything in my living room (receiver, amp, TV, DVR, Blu-Ray, PC) is connected to a UPS. Now-a-days, these things are all basically computers. If you don't give them good power protection it will shorten their lifespan greatly.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

argusx said:


> I'd disagree with that statement. UPS's are important for modern electronics. They filter out power spikes and brown-outs, providing clean sine-wave power curves, in addition to carrying load during black-outs. Unfiltered utility power can be VERY hard on power supplies, thus shorting their lives as well as anything that may be connected to them (i.e. hard drives and motherboards). UPS's DO provide hardware protection. Everything in my living room (receiver, amp, TV, DVR, Blu-Ray, PC) is connected to a UPS. Now-a-days, these things are all basically computers. If you don't give them good power protection it will shorten their lifespan greatly.


People feelings on the use of UPS supplies is for sure not uniform, I doubt a double blind study on a UPS power supply has ever been done so it more like any faith, you believe or don't believe in its use or have never considered its use because you don't know what it is. If it was so important to the life of any TiVo why would TiVo not recommend its use on all their TiVos. The one time i used a UPS on a TiVo a 5 second loss of power did not stop my Series 3 TiVo but did stop my cable amp, when the power came back on, the cable signal did not syn with the Series 3 and i did not record anything that evening, I had to reboot the TiVo to get things working again so i took the UPS off and have never had any more problems with any AC power loss. I do use an UPS on my computer as sometimes a power loss can be a problem on a computer, like when updating the computers BIOS or firmware on a CD or router. People feel good when they spend $1500 on a power conditioner for their electronics, that does not even have a UPS with it, each to their own.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

argusx said:


> I'd disagree with that statement. UPS's are important for modern electronics. They filter out power spikes and brown-outs, providing clean sine-wave power curves, in addition to carrying load during black-outs. Unfiltered utility power can be VERY hard on power supplies, thus shorting their lives as well as anything that may be connected to them (i.e. hard drives and motherboards). UPS's DO provide hardware protection. Everything in my living room (receiver, amp, TV, DVR, Blu-Ray, PC) is connected to a UPS. Now-a-days, these things are all basically computers. If you don't give them good power protection it will shorten their lifespan greatly.


How clean a sine wave you get probably depends in large part on just how expensive a UPS we're talking about, as it's a lot more expensive to provide what's essentially an audio oscillator feeding a Class A or AB 1kW amplifier to get a true 60Hz 120V sine wave at 10 to 15 Amperes than it is to "fake it".

As long as it's a waveform that "rises" from zero to ~170 Volts in 1/240th of a second, makes it back to zero in the next 1/240th, gets to negative ~170 Volts in the third 1/240th and back "up" to zero by the end of the fourth, so that you have an approximation of a 60Hz, 120V rms waveform, it shouldn't be that big a problem for power supplies used nowadays that push it through rectifiers first and store it in capacitors.

In older equipment where it's a big transformer feeding a rectifier feeding a filter, the higher frequency of the edges of stairsteps of a bunch of summed square waves (or the equivalent) might mean a little more heat when it encounters the inductive reactance of the primary winding of a transformer that was designed for a 60Hz sine wave.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

lessd said:


> People feelings on the use of UPS supplies is for sure not uniform, I doubt a double blind study on a UPS power supply has ever been done so it more like any faith, you believe or don't believe in its use or have never considered its use because you don't know what it is. If it was so important to the life of any TiVo why would TiVo not recommend its use on all their TiVos. The one time i used a UPS on a TiVo a 5 second loss of power did not stop my Series 3 TiVo but did stop my cable amp, when the power came back on, the cable signal did not syn with the Series 3 and i did not record anything that evening, I had to reboot the TiVo to get things working again so i took the UPS off and have never had any more problems with any AC power loss. I do use an UPS on my computer as sometimes a power loss can be a problem on a computer, like when updating the computers BIOS or firmware on a CD or router. People feel good when they spend $1500 on a power conditioner for their electronics, that does not even have a UPS with it, each to their own.


When you say cable amp, I'm going to assume you mean an inline signal booster, with or without integrated splitter (in other words, a simple RF amplifier), and not some sort of tuning adapter.

Did you have both your cable amp and Tivo on the same UPS?

If a TiVo and cable amp are both plugged straight into the wall and both lose power, then, when the power comes back on, the cable amp is going to be running again while the TiVo is booting back up. When the TiVo finishes booting it's going to look for signal coming in and find it.

If the Tivo is on a UPS and the cable amp isn't, then the TiVo is going to see signal loss, and, *due to a design flaw in the TiVo*, isn't going to keep checking back to see if the signal is restored.

You can't hold the UPS responsible for what the Tivo gets wrong.

If both were on the UPS, then I suppose that the Tivo could have kept going on what was in its filter capacitors during the changeover in the UPS while the wall-wart (or internal equivalent) powering the cable amp didn't have quite enough in reserve to avoid the very briefest of interruptions.

In that case one could blame the UPS for not coming on line quickly enough, I suppose. Of course, that would mean it should have provided what a UPS costing at least $100 more would have to compensate for the cable amp not having an extra $1's worth of capacitor.

In any case, the real problem is that the Tivo isn't designed to allow for an "all too likely to happen from time to time" momentary loss of signal.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

dlfl said:


> And you don't consider your posts "demeaning" or "mocking" ?


 A post of empty accusations and without always required reasons why (and numbers) is an insult to others who spent years learning this stuff. From a first post, he was challenged to prove claims with numbers and hard facts. Instead he reposted the same urban myths with an attitude: "I am smarter that you; I am an IT Professional".

Facts that say why he only demeaned himself.

First, he only provides one reason for his claims. He is an IT Professional. He posts no numbers or facts. That demeans others. For example, you replied with useful and relevant supporting facts. Ie. a power of 3.5. Kudos for doing what a responsible poster does. Provide reasons why we should know. Especially numbers. He does not.

Second, he says he knows because he observed. Observation without first learning years of knowledge is classic junk science. Posting hearsay as fact earns a blunt challenge. He refuses to post even one reason for numerous bogus claims. Then gets emotional to mask his information source. Hearsay. His emotion says basic electrical and transistor knowledge is missing. If he knew this stuff, then his post would have been unemotional, logical, and contained spec numbers.

Third, an example of virtually no electrical training: 


> My quality ones also provide brownout protection, frequency protection, noise filtering, and spike protection far beyond most power strips.


Brownouts do not harm electronics. By being bluntly challenged and still not explaining why, well, another reason why others can identify what is only advertising propaganda. Only myths say brownouts are destructive to electronics.

Noise filtering? Numbers say 'filtering' is near zero. Filtering that is also undone inside electronics. Many and better filters also exist inside electronics. Anyone with basic electrical knowledge would know that rumored UPS filtering is near zero. Only solves a fictional problem.

Spike protection? Read spec numbers. A UPS typically has spike protection inferior to power strips. A number just above zero. Just large enough so that he can promote it as 100% spike protection. Why does he not post numbers? Which number is relevant? Sales spin has hyped subjective protection. He posted deception. A contempt for others who came here to learn reality.

And finally, the master myth. Frequency protection. When did AC main variation harm any electronics? How does UPS change a frequency? It doesn't. Even the UPS manufacturers do not claim that myth. Where was that strawman invented? Frequency protection can only exist with no electrical knowledge.

Exposed and bluntly challenged are examples of junk science reasoning. Three reasons demonstrate how to see through a myth purveyor. No numbers. Avoid discussing basic electrical concepts. When challenged, become emotional. "I am an IT Professional" even demonstrates an attitude - not knowledge.

His UPS does not do what he claims. He was only told what to believe. He does not demand hard facts and numbers that every honest person requires. He believes subjective claims rather than demand the always required numbers. And knows subjective claims must be true because it was the first thing he was told. That demeans other who seeks honesty.

An example of an honest poster. You provided a relevant and accurate number - 3.5. Respect for others who came to learn. Doing what is required in any informative reply.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

argusx said:


> I'd disagree with that statement. UPS's are important for modern electronics. They filter out power spikes and brown-outs, providing clean sine-wave power curves, in addition to carrying load during black-outs. Unfiltered utility power can be VERY hard on power supplies, thus shorting their lives as well as anything that may be connected to them


Well that is what hearsay says. Let's look at the output of a 120 volt UPS when in battery backup mode. 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. If AC power slowly destroys electronics, then a UPS in battery backup must do instant damage.

Did you learn about clean UPS power from hearsay? From subjective recommendations? Or did you do what an honest layman must do? Demand underlying facts and numbers.

Why is that 200 volt square wave and spike of 270 volts not destructive? Because all electronics are that robust. Because that 200 volt square wave is ideal power to all electronics. Subjective myths that intentionally ignore realities promote sales.

If a UPS filters out spikes, et al, then you can post a UPS manufacturer spec number that says so. Again, what do I always demand for honesty. Supporting facts and numbers. Most who recommend a UPS will recite those subjective claims. Fine. Prove it. Show me the numbers.

lessd demonstrates the only purpose of a UPS. Provide temporary power. Especially critical if doing a BIOS upgrade. Resulting 'dirty' power from a UPS is perfectly ideal power to any computer even when buring non-volatile memory.

Appreciate what engineers always demand before knowing something. And how to separate myth purveyors from others who first learned science. Numbers.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

unitron said:


> If both were on the UPS, then I suppose that the Tivo could have kept going on what was in its filter capacitors during the changeover in the UPS while the wall-wart (or internal equivalent) powering the cable amp didn't have quite enough in reserve to avoid the very briefest of interruptions.


To expand on what unitron has posted. A UPS has a relay that first disconnects AC mains. Then connects to battery generated power. During that period (maybe 10 milliseconds), no power is provided. All electronics must have a power supply that provides rock solid DC power while no AC power is incoming. Power supply specifications typically list that number. It must be significantly greater than 10 milliseconds.

If a cable amp does not store enough power, then a UPS might not be considered uninterruptible power. During a switch to batteries, a cable amp might glitch off.

That relay inside a UPS normally connects appliances directly to AC mains - when power is cleanest.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

argusx said:


> I'd disagree with that statement. UPS's are important for modern electronics. They filter out power spikes and brown-outs, providing clean sine-wave power curves, in addition to carrying load during black-outs.


I see this claim a lot, that a UPS takes the nasty dirty mains power from the electric co and produces a _clean sine-wave_. Unless it's a double-conversion UPS (which are comparatively rare and more expensive than the other two types), then it does not do this in the common case. For our usual cheap UPS, the sine-wave output is produced by the inverter which only runs when mains power is offline. 99.9% of the time that nasty dirty mains power goes right through the UPS into your equipment. This is why I make the point that it's important to understand how the device works.



argusx said:


> If you don't give them good power protection it will shorten their lifespan greatly.


Proof? I'm not trying to be mocking here, but this is a significant claim and I just don't see it substantiated. The vast majority of my computers, as well as all of my consumer electronics (TV, Tivo, etc) have never been on a UPS. Every one of these devices I replace due to obsolescence, not due to power-induced failure. My 11 year old Tivo S1 survived nearly a decade of use with no UPS.

Power supplies are designed to regulate the power they produce. Their purpose is to deal with mains power and convert it to clean regulated DC power. The device runs off of "clean" power by design. It doesn't need a UPS to "pre-clean" the power.

I'm tempted to get my hands on a variac, and throttle down the AC going into my Premiere as an experiment to see just how much of a brownout it can take before it has any noticeable affect. I suspect the range is fairly wide.

Blackout protection is another issue. If one really really needs to be sure programs are recorded while the power is off, then a UPS is the way to go. I'd rather apply that money somewhere else. In the worst case if I miss a show, I can buy it from amazon, watch it online, or get it by _other_ means.



westom said:


> During that period (maybe 10 milliseconds), no power is provided.


I think common ones may be in the range of 25ms. It's one of the main reasons why I contend UPSs in the common case make the situation worse. Back when I had the rackmount APC smart-UPS on my computers, the devices connected to the UPS were visibly more stressed during brownouts when the UPS switched over to battery power than those devices that were not connected to a UPS.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

unitron said:


> When you say cable amp, I'm going to assume you mean an inline signal booster, with or without integrated splitter (in other words, a simple RF amplifier), and not some sort of tuning adapter.
> 
> Did you have both your cable amp and Tivo on the same UPS?
> 
> ...


You are correct the cable amp is in another part of my home and was not connected to any UPS, I know that was the problem and could have been fixed by using another UPS on the cable amp, but I just took the UPS off the TiVo to solve the problem.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

smbaker said:


> *Wrong!*
> 
> One merely needs to consult youtube to find a tomato battery:
> 
> ...


Touche. You threw those tomatoes rather well.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

smbaker said:


> I see this claim a lot, that a UPS takes the nasty dirty mains power from the electric co and produces a _clean sine-wave_. Unless it's a double-conversion UPS (which are comparatively rare and more expensive than the other two types), then it does not do this in the common case. For our usual cheap UPS, the sine-wave output is produced by the inverter which only runs when mains power is offline. 99.9% of the time that nasty dirty mains power goes right through the UPS into your equipment. This is why I make the point that it's important to understand how the device works.
> 
> Proof? I'm not trying to be mocking here, but this is a significant claim and I just don't see it substantiated. The vast majority of my computers, as well as all of my consumer electronics (TV, Tivo, etc) have never been on a UPS. Every one of these devices I replace due to obsolescence, not due to power-induced failure. My 11 year old Tivo S1 survived nearly a decade of use with no UPS.
> 
> ...


Most UPS units that 'switch' to battery do so in about 4ms.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

daveak said:


> Most UPS units that 'switch' to battery do so in about 4ms.


 4, 10, or 25 milliseconds is still a long time. And then its 'battery powered' DC to AC converter must measure the new load; to increase current output as required. This delay is why electronic power supplies must provide uninterrupted power while waiting for AC power to be restored. Another of so many functions required inside a power supply inside every electronic appliance.

That is the point. Most all AC power variations are made irrelevant by functions that must be inside electronic appliances. One anomaly that cannot be solved inside a supply is blackouts. Temporary and 'dirtiest' power is the purpose of a UPS.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

westom said:


> 4, 10, or 25 milliseconds is still a long time. And then its 'battery powered' DC to AC converter must measure the new load; to increase current output as required. This delay is why electronic power supplies must provide uninterrupted power while waiting for AC power to be restored. Another of so many functions required inside a power supply inside every electronic appliance.
> 
> That is the point. Most all AC power variations are made irrelevant by functions that must be inside electronic appliances. One anomaly that cannot be solved inside a supply is blackouts. Temporary and 'dirtiest' power is the purpose of a UPS.


For a very great majority of applications, 4ms will get you by. Dirtiest is relative to the UPS and what your utility power looks like (I am sure you know that utility power is not always 'clean and pure'). At least we can agree that one purpose of a UPS is to provide temporary power, and many of us want that.

And with what you say is happening inside a power supply, the 4ms must be a non-issue.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

daveak said:


> For a very great majority of applications, 4ms will get you by. Dirtiest is relative to the UPS and what your utility power looks like (I am sure you know that utility power is not always 'clean and pure').


 A UPS in battery backup mode is potentially harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors because power can be so 'dirty'. AC mains power is typically not harmful. That puts 'dirty' into perspective. And explains why UPS manufacturers recommend neither power strip protectors nor motorized appliances on their UPS output.

Industry design standard for supplies is to remain unfazed when AC power is lost for 17 ms. Power supplies will remain powered longer. Two examples of why electronics are so robust as to make 'dirty' UPS output anomalies irrelevant.

Features found even in tiny wall wart supplies for a router.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

westom said:


> A UPS in battery backup mode is potentially harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors because power can be so 'dirty'. AC mains power is typically not harmful. That puts 'dirty' into perspective. And explains why UPS manufacturers recommend neither power strip protectors nor motorized appliances on their UPS output.
> 
> Industry design standard for supplies is to remain unfazed when AC power is lost for 17 ms. Power supplies will remain powered longer. Two examples of why electronics are so robust as to make 'dirty' UPS output anomalies irrelevant.
> 
> Features found even in tiny wall wart supplies for a router.


So you are saying that some UPS units have power so dirty that it will harm your electronics? I would agree that could be the case in a minority of brands and models, but the majority of units will be OK for temporary power needs.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I've forgotten what this argument was about...

We know that most consumer UPS's output "dirty" power.
We know that "dirty" power doesn't affect most electronics due to the AC to DC conversion.

I know from experience that anything with an AC motor should not be connected to a UPS because the motor is less efficient with the artificial sine wave.
I question how power strip protectors could be affected, but I admit I don't know how those work.

So what's the issue with using a UPS with a Tivo?
Nothing as far as I can tell. You either choose to use one or you don't.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

steve614 said:


> I've forgotten what this argument was about...
> 
> We know that most consumer UPS's output "dirty" power.
> We know that "dirty" power doesn't affect most electronics due to the AC to DC conversion.
> ...


Sounds good to me.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

steve614 said:


> I've forgotten what this argument was about...


 What is the purpose of a Tivo powered by a UPS?

The UPS provides temporary and 'dirty' power so that a Tivo (and related appliances) can operate through a blackout. Nothing more.

A UPS will output power so 'dirty' as to be potentially harmful to small motors and power strip protectors. But is ideal power to all electronics. The point: because electronics are so robust. And because a UPS does not do the clean power and surge protection so often promoted by advertising.

Not discussed is how to protect appliances from rare transients that can overwhelm existing protection. That would be another discussion. The topic is what a UPS does and does not do for a Tivo. Its purpose is battery backup - temporary power. Protection already in electronics (including Tivo) is so robust as to make even 'dirtiest' UPS power (and standard AC mains power) irrelevant. A $1000 UPS for cleanest power does nothing useful.

I never said a UPS outputs power so 'dirty' as to harm electronics. I said 'dirtiest' power that comes from a UPS does 'not' harm electronics including a Tivo. Electronics are so robust as to convert even 'dirtiest' power from a UPS into 'clean' power. But UPS power can be so 'dirty' as to harm those other appliances.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

I have my 46" LCD, Tivo, DVR expander and receiver all plugged into the battery side of the UPS. If the power goes out and I'm home, I'll put the Tivo into standby, and power down the rest of the system. If I'm not at home then it is unlikely that the Receiver and TV willl be on (unless the cats learn to use the remote), and hopefully the UPS will last long enough to get through the blackout.


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## L David Matheny (Jan 29, 2011)

tiassa said:


> I have my 46" LCD, Tivo, DVR expander and receiver all plugged into the battery side of the UPS. If the power goes out and I'm home, I'll put the Tivo into standby, and power down the rest of the system. If I'm not at home then it is unlikely that the Receiver and TV willl be on (unless the cats learn to use the remote), and hopefully the UPS will last long enough to get through the blackout.


And if the UPS doesn't last long enough to get through the blackout, the TiVo will experience a power failure, and it will probably still be fine after it reboots. But the UPS is likely to help since many power outages are very short.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

steve614 said:


> I've forgotten what this argument was about...


I tried to warn you back in post #40! 


steve614 said:


> So what's the issue with using a UPS with a Tivo?
> Nothing as far as I can tell. You either choose to use one or you don't.


+1 :up: That's it -- plain and simple.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

steve614 said:


> I know from experience that anything with an AC motor should not be connected to a UPS because the motor is less efficient with the artificial sine wave.


Yep, they expect a sine wave and getting fed a square wave or stepped wave (common in low end UPSs) isn't great for them. Having done it once or twice, you can even hear the different in noise from the motor as it struggles. 

OTOH I once ran a shop vac off my big UPS, which does produce an actual sine-wave. (Or at least it says it does, and the motor sounded normal. I didn't have an osilliscope to check the output ) Something about cleaning up a mess made while rewiring a power outlet. Couldn't power the vac off the wall AC because the breakers were off to do the work.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

daveak said:


> Most UPS units that 'switch' to battery do so in about 4ms.


Using APC's website as an example:



apc website said:


> The transfer time of the BK CS and ES units is 8 to 10 milliseconds.
> The transfer time of the BK RS units is 4 to 5 milliseconds.


It depends on how you define "most". Two of their cheap UPS take 8-10 and one of their cheap UPS takes 4-5.

APC has a variety of literature on how long of a full droupout a switch-mode power supply can tolerate. One white paper says 10ms, another FAQ says 16ms. The 10ms number comes from an IEC standard and I've seen it on other websites as well; I'm not sure where the 16ms number is pulled from. If the number truly is 10ms, then a Back-UPS CS/ES is pushing it at 8-10ms transfer time.

Older UPSs used to take longer to transfer (up to 25ms, the number quoted on wikipedia for standby UPS transfer times). I also wonder if the manufacturers are not including the time to detect the power failure in these numbers.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

L David Matheny said:


> And if the UPS doesn't last long enough to get through the blackout, the TiVo will experience a power failure, and it will probably still be fine after it reboots. But the UPS is likely to help since many power outages are very short.


True, and that's why I got the UPS. In my house we have "blackouts" long enough to reset the clock on the Microwave about every other month or so. They usually don't last very long, but I don't want one to happen right in the middle of something I'm recording and find out about it "After the fact".


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## wkearney99 (Dec 5, 2003)

I've used power conditioning UPS devices. The old PDPs were really sensitive to the crappy power at that particular location. I've had to move said devices from one floor to another. Damn things must've weighed 250 pounds each. 

I harbor no illusions that the typical retail UPS has anywhere near the same capabilities. But nor do I demand that as being necessary for my consumer electronic and computer needs. They do a decent enough job for a reasonable enough price. Arguing otherwise doesn't make much sense.


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## Stormydog (Oct 13, 2010)

Wow! Little did I know such a great debate would come from my original question. I have to thank everyone for providing insight into this scenario and am very appreciative of the information provided. I think it is time to put this thread to rest.

My original question was because we are always subject to sudden, quick power outages where I live. We also have tall trees nearby that seem to be hit with lightning. I have several shattered trees to witness. I've put in whole house surge protection, protected outlets and still loose an electronic device from time to time. Lost my Leviton Gateway simply because electric company unplugged meter to put a newer one on. (I filed an insurance claim against them and because there were no visable power arcs, they denied any responsibility. Any electrician will tell you you dont need arcs to ruin equipment.

So I have plenty of advice here and love the response. I never had a UPS for my TV, but do for my PC. During a storm, I still unplug PC from power. Same may be true of TV and Tivo if I am home. Just wanted to know the Tivocommunity feelings on the need for a UPS. I definetly got that. Since I have a DLP TV and two Tivos, I may try one out just to add one more minute layer of buffer of protection. Thanks for all of your responses.
Enough said?


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Stormydog said:


> Wow! Little did I know such a great debate would come from my original question. I have to thank everyone for providing insight into this scenario and am very appreciative of the information provided. I think it is time to put this thread to rest.
> 
> My original question was because we are always subject to sudden, quick power outages where I live. We also have tall trees nearby that seem to be hit with lightning. I have several shattered trees to witness. I've put in whole house surge protection, protected outlets and still loose an electronic device from time to time. Lost my Leviton Gateway simply because electric company unplugged meter to put a newer one on. (I filed an insurance claim against them and because there were no visable power arcs, they denied any responsibility. Any electrician will tell you you dont need arcs to ruin equipment.
> 
> ...


Over 35 years ago, despite having been in business for decades before that, Leviton couldn't make a lamp socket switch that didn't fail after only a few months.

They're still in business, so I guess they got away with it, and learned that they could get away with it, so I avoid their products whenever possible.

Unplugging the meter and plugging in another one shouldn't produce any effect that you wouldn't also get if power to your entire block went out and was then restored. Doesn't that thing run off of a wall-wart anyway?


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Stormydog said:


> Lost my Leviton Gateway simply because electric company unplugged meter to put a newer one on. (I filed an insurance claim against them and because there were no visable power arcs, they denied any responsibility. Any electrician will tell you you dont need arcs to ruin equipment.


Is it an old house with an old electrical system? These days meter boxes have a lever inside that allows the power company to change meters without interruption of service.

And yeah, I agree it was bad service on the power company if they knew a meter change would shut you down. They should have coordinated with you so you could shut down your electrical panel.

ETA: For the record...procedure for a planned electrical interruption:

Shut down equipment
Once power is turned off, turn off all the breakers in the electrical panel, including the main breaker (if so equipped).
Once power is restored, turn on the main breaker (if so equipped).
Turn breakers on one at a time, starting with major appliances. Allow time for each appliance to start up before turning on the next breaker.
Restart equipment.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

steve614 said:


> Is it an old house with an old electrical system? These days meter boxes have a lever inside that allows the power company to change meters without interruption of service.
> 
> And yeah, I agree it was bad service on the power company if they knew a meter change would shut you down. They should have coordinated with you so you could shut down your electrical panel.
> 
> ...


It doesn't work that way here. The power company shuts off the power, changes the meters and then turns the power back on. With little or no warning.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> It doesn't work that way here. The power company shuts off the power, changes the meters and then turns the power back on. With little or no warning.


The last time I installed a main panel was around 10-12 years ago. I also don't recall any such lever inside of the panel. Last time there was a meter change in my area, there was also no warning. I'm curious, so next time I go down to the electrical supply store, I'll have a look at the main boxes.

If such a lever exists (some googling reveals that they do exist in newer panels), and it's operable without having to remove the meter, then it would make a great way for people to bypass the meter for a few weeks every month.


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## Stormydog (Oct 13, 2010)

Our house is only 6 yrs old. It was completely rebuilt from a house fire. Because the fire marshal determined an electrical fire (wall outlet just started arcing), I insisted from the electrician as much protection as I could get.

The power company was here in person and did advise me to shut down any computers. I did that and did not think I needed to unplug anything. He said he would shut off power and switch meters, would take just a few minutes. I know if I would have unplugged everything, I would not have lost the Leviton. By the way, I know very little about the electronic industry. My electrician installed a modern Structured Media cabinet and has additional protection at the panel. No turning off circuits were done by company. All I know is that the Leviton worked just before power company arrived, and after he left, it didnt work and I was stuck with buying another.

Sorry, I do not know what a wall-wart is. I do have them plugged into a quality outlet that has its own surge protector with the green led light. I feel the electrician used the best that he thought he could use at that time. I certainly do not know what is available out there so I have to leave it to him.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

smbaker said:


> The last time I installed a main panel was around 10-12 years ago. I also don't recall any such lever inside of the panel. Last time there was a meter change in my area, there was also no warning. I'm curious, so next time I go down to the electrical supply store, I'll have a look at the main boxes.
> 
> If such a lever exists (some googling reveals that they do exist in newer panels), and it's operable without having to remove the meter, then it would make a great way for people to bypass the meter for a few weeks every month.


The lever you are referring to is* NOT *for changing the meter, it is for a new install so before the meter comes you can have power in the home, the lever must be in the off position before the meter can be installed and once the meter is in place the lever will not move. Only the gas co meters has a true bypass because of pilot lights etc. The power co takes no responsibility for power interruptions as they can happen for many reasons all the time, at my home we have them about 3 to 4 times a year for 5 to 10 sec, a major storm may cut power off for an extended time, happened to me about three times in 14 years.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Stormydog said:


> [snip]Sorry, I do not know what a wall-wart is.


A wall-wart is a (somewhat derogatory) name the small AC to DC power adaptors that are integrated into a plug, which are very common for low voltage DC appliances.

If you've got any devices where the power cord is a very thin wire (often with a barrel connector on the appliance end) and a large blocky plastic cube that plugs directly into the wall, that's cube's a wall-wart.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Stormydog said:


> Our house is only 6 yrs old. It was completely rebuilt from a house fire. Because the fire marshal determined an electrical fire (wall outlet just started arcing), I insisted from the electrician as much protection as I could get.
> 
> The power company was here in person and did advise me to shut down any computers. I did that and did not think I needed to unplug anything. He said he would shut off power and switch meters, would take just a few minutes. I know if I would have unplugged everything, I would not have lost the Leviton. By the way, I know very little about the electronic industry. My electrician installed a modern Structured Media cabinet and has additional protection at the panel. No turning off circuits were done by company. All I know is that the Leviton worked just before power company arrived, and after he left, it didnt work and I was stuck with buying another.
> 
> Sorry, I do not know what a wall-wart is. I do have them plugged into a quality outlet that has its own surge protector with the green led light. I feel the electrician used the best that he thought he could use at that time. I certainly do not know what is available out there so I have to leave it to him.


Jonathan_S did a much better job explaining wall-warts than you would have gotten out of me.

However...

Any transients, which by definition are high-frequency events, resulting from removing and re-inserting the meter would likely have trouble getting through the "socket-mounted adapter", a.k.a., wall-wart, due to the inductive reactance (which increases with frequency) of the transformer primary winding, secondary winding, and laminated metal core inside it.

It could be that that, despite Leviton's lack of quality control, the router/gateway/whatever is still okay, and it's just the wall-wart itself that went bad, as a result of the heat generated by the inductive reactance in that transformer.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

Stormydog said:


> We also have tall trees nearby that seem to be hit with lightning. I have several shattered trees to witness. I've put in whole house surge protection, protected outlets and still loose an electronic device from time to time. Lost my Leviton Gateway simply because electric company unplugged meter to put a newer one on. (I filed an insurance claim against them and because there were no visable power arcs, they denied any responsibility.


If I did not say it enough, let me repeat it. No protector - not even the 'whole house' protector - does protection. If you had a 'whole house' protector and damage, then your earthing is defective. It can completely meet code and still be insufficient. Earth means every single wire from every incoming utility cable makes a short (ie' less than 10 foot') connection to the one and only earth ground. Earthing may also need be expanded to well exceed what is required by code. If you have damage, the #1 suspect is deficient earthing. Or any one wire in any utility cable not sufficiently connected to earth.

Proper earthing and one 'whole house' protector means no damage from typically destructive transients such as lightning and meter swapping. You have a classic symptom of defective earthing.

And not just earthing of your secondary protection system (the earth ground at your house). The earthing of your primary protection system also must be sufficient. A picture of what to inspect:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

smbaker said:


> The last time I installed a main panel was around 10-12 years ago. I also don't recall any such lever inside of the panel. Last time there was a meter change in my area, there was also no warning. I'm curious, so next time I go down to the electrical supply store, I'll have a look at the main boxes.
> 
> If such a lever exists (some googling reveals that they do exist in newer panels), and it's operable without having to remove the meter, then it would make a great way for people to bypass the meter for a few weeks every month.


No, the lever is inside the meter box, to which only the power company has access, unless you break off the tamper proof tag the power company puts on there and take the cover off.
Around here, the power companies become very suspicious when their tamper proof tags are missing...












lessd said:


> The lever you are referring to is* NOT *for changing the meter, it is for a new install so before the meter comes you can have power in the home, the lever must be in the off position before the meter can be installed and once the meter is in place the lever will not move. Only the gas co meters has a true bypass because of pilot lights etc. The power co takes no responsibility for power interruptions as they can happen for many reasons all the time, at my home we have them about 3 to 4 times a year for 5 to 10 sec, a major storm may cut power off for an extended time, happened to me about three times in 14 years.


The lever works with the meter in place. It's main purpose is to allow a meter change without interrupting power.
In fact, at the same time the lever bypasses the meter, it opens the jaws that hold the meter in place.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

steve614 said:


> No, the lever is inside the meter box, to which only the power company has access, unless you break off the tamper proof tag the power company puts on there and take the cover off.
> Around here, the power companies become very suspicious when their tamper proof tags are missing...
> 
> 
> ...


My meter box is 15 years old and you can't move the lever (on my box it is on the outside of the main meter box) when the meter is in place, so changing the meter will cut the power unless the electric co has a special jumper that they bring with them when changing my meter). On your pictured meter box I have to assume some sort of seal/or control must exist so that people can't jumper out the meter to cut down on their elect cost by just going outside and moving a lever. I not saying all people are dishonest but that would present a big temptation for some people.


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## Stormydog (Oct 13, 2010)

Very informative. thank you.
You may be right, earthing may not be sufficient. I insisted to the electrician my concerns about electical surges and such. He claims my my house is just fine as when he came to replace a blown circuit breaker and GFI outlet I insisted he check it out. I do know there is a wire to a metal pipe outside into the ground. He did say nothing can protect from a lightning strike. The tall trees that are being hit around my house are a 200-300 feet away maybe.

Anyway, you just put your desires into the hands of the electrician and assume they give you the best configuration possible.

Thanks for the explaination of a wall-wart. I appreciate it.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

lessd said:


> On your pictured meter box I have to assume some sort of seal/or control must exist so that people can't jumper out the meter to cut down on their elect cost by just going outside and moving a lever. I not saying all people are dishonest but that would present a big temptation for some people.


Correct. When the meter box is closed, the lever is inaccessable.
In order to access the lever, you must break the tamper proof tag that the power company puts on the opening latch (see picture below) and take the cover off.
A dishonest person could do this, but he would have to leave the cover off if he wanted to bypass the meter (the cover can't be replaced with the lever actuated), and he might have to try and explain to the power company why he broke the tamper proof tag.
I'm sure a broken tamper proof tag + a sudden drop in electrical usage would raise a red flag for the power company.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

Stormydog said:


> You may be right, earthing may not be sufficient. I insisted to the electrician my concerns about electical surges and such. He claims my my house is just fine as when he came to replace a blown circuit breaker and GFI outlet I insisted he check it out. I do know there is a wire to a metal pipe outside into the ground. He did say nothing can protect from a lightning strike.


 An electrician will say earthing meets code. But many electricians do not understand why, for example, a ground wire must have no sharp bends, must not be inside metallic conduit, must be so short (ie 'less than 3 meters') and other requirements not required by code.

Code only addresses human safety. Other requirements to make low impedance earthing means doing things that code does not require.

If nothing protects from lightning, then why are 'whole house' protectors sized at 50,000 amps to conduct direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth? If nothing can protect from lightning, then your entire town is without phone service for four days while they replace their computer. One of maybe 100 surges with each storm always causes damage? Of course not. Better earthing in high reliability facilities so that lightning strikes do not cause damage.

If he did not learn how to install earthing to exceed code, then of course he must assume nothing can protect from lightning. He does not properly earth so that direct lightning strikes and other surges cause no damage.

Earthing must be so short to a maybe 10 foot solid copper clad ground rod. Better protection means even more ground rods. Earthing that would exceed what electricians are taught.


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