# Stream Blue-Ray to tivo



## icehole (Nov 26, 2009)

I Couldn't find any info on this, but what I am wanting to do is stream blue ray from the disk in my PC to my Tivo's.. 

to start with a little background. I am building an Intel Atom 330 based file server mostly for the purpose of streaming my video's to my Tivo's since I am out of hard drive capacity on my desktop & Dont want to add anything else to this power sucking beast of a machine then I already have. 
I Will be either running Windows Home Server or Ubuntu server. Haven't decided which as of yet as this will be part of my deciding factors. 

I want to be able to add a Blue Ray Player to my Server & be able to stream video direct to the tivo's as it is not convent to have a separate blue ray for one of my TV's as the components are 8' off the ground above the TV on a plant shelf. 

So is it possible & whats required if it is?


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Sorry to be a spoil sport. But the simple answer is *NO*.

However.... there *ARE* work arounds.

There are several problems to keep in mind about this. One is the "codecs" that BLu-rays used are *not* all supported by the TiVo.

A Blu-Ray disc can use any of the following THREE (3) video Codecs. VC-1, AVC (H.264), or MPG2. MPG2 is now fairly rare. It can be found on alot of the older Blu-ray discs that were first released when Blu-ray was still really new. VC-1 is used mostly by studios that were supporting HD-DVD. An example of this is NBC-Universal. Sony & Disney Blu-rays are for the most part all H.264. (This is the general rule, but their are some exceptions sometimes)

TiVo HD can natively support H.264 video & MPG2 video. It can *NOT* natively support VC-1.

Second problem is with Audio. Audio codecs used on Blu-rays will either be DTS-HD, or Dolby True-HD. Neither of which is natively supported by the TiVo. TiVo can support DD 5.1 Audio, but it can't currently support any version of DTS audio.

Third problem you have is with "DRM" being used on the Blu-ray.

As a result, No "Live" streaming to the TiVo.

Therefore.... You will need to "RIP" the blu-ray to your hard drive.

1. It will require that you "Rip" the Blu-ray disc to a Hard Drive.

2. You will then have to create a M2TS or MKV file that will contain the video & audio that you wish play on the TiVo. This may or maynot require some converting as well.

DTS-HD will have to be down converted to AC3 DD5.1, Dolby True-HD will need to have the "Core" audio track removed. Thus giving you a AC3 DD5.1 audio track from the "Core" you removed.

If the Video is VC-1 INTERLACED (1080*i*) you will need to *CONVERT* that video to H.264, or VC-1 progressive (1080*p*)

Once you have created this M2TS or MKV file. You will then be able to use TiVo Desktop Plus 2.8 *OR* pyTiVo to transfer the resulting file to your TiVo to watch.

I have noticed somewhere in these forums that someone has a program that will allow you to stream videos's on your hard drive to the TiVo. I beleive you could then use this program (I don't know what it's name is) to stream your* RIPPED AND CONVERTED *movie to your TiVo. It will support the same file types as TD+ 2.8 and pyTiVo. However, I wouldn't try this using a Wireless Network connection, not with streaming.

In case your wondering what the problem is with VC-1 Interlaced video (1080i) it's because most programs use an underlying program called FFMPEG. As of the date of this post, FFMPEG doesn't support VC-1 Interlaced video. It will support Progressive VC-1 video (1080p).

One other thing to note. The resulting M2TS file &/or MKV file of a ripped blu-ray movie can be anywhere in size from 15gb to 41gb. So it will eat up lots of hard drive space FAST!

There are "Tweaks" you can make using various different programs when making an MKV file that will reduce its size by quite a bit and still maintain a decent level of quality to the video and audio. But keep in mind, anything you do that reduces file size* WILL ALWAYS *reduce PQ & SQ to some extent. This may not be noticeable if your watching the movie on a 32" LCD scsreen and cheap speakers. But it *IS *notieable on a 65" Plasma!

If you have further questions on what programs I use for this process, Please feel free to PM me.

TGC


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

TexasGrillChef said:


> ...I have noticed somewhere in these forums that someone has a program that will allow you to stream videos's on your hard drive to the TiVo. I beleive you could then use this program (I don't know what it's name is) to stream your* RIPPED AND CONVERTED *movie to your TiVo. It will support the same file types as TD+ 2.8 and pyTiVo. However, I wouldn't try this using a Wireless Network connection, not with streaming...


Great information TGC! 
The streaming app is called Stream, Baby, Stream! (commonly referred to as just streambaby). Many pages about it can be found here: 
http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=416858
and here:
http://code.google.com/p/streambaby/

Maybe you could request that the developer support reading directly from the DVD drive and transcode on the fly - similar to how it does it with HDD files?


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

The TiVo does support VC-1, but it's very picky about it.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

wmcbrine said:


> The TiVo does support VC-1, but it's very picky about it.


Doesn't Netflix use VC1 to stream their content to TiVo?


----------



## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

It seems like by the time rip the blu ray and convert the files, you could have just played the blu ray on a set top blu ray player.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

There are better stand alone solutions for streaming ripped Blu-ray Disc titles that will play the DTS-HD/Dolby True HD codecs and decode the video stream. TiVo shouldn't even be on the list when thinking about doing this. Not if you want it to sound and look the best.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I don't think an Atom 330 based file server has enough horsepower to convert/reencoce your videos.

You can purchase a Blu-Ray player for not much more then $100.

I'll let the experts share their opinion but I wonder how much better a Blu-Ray video, converterted to tivo specs, will look then an upscaled DVD already at tivo specs.


----------



## icehole (Nov 26, 2009)

well this started out on topic.. 

As for buying a set top player.. THIS IS NOT AN OPTION.. also adding additional hardware at the TV end is not an option.. There is no place to put one nor will there be as components are over 8' off the floor above the TV.. Secondly streambaby is what I use now & it does an overall great job, my only problem with it is that I would like it linked directly off the now playing list rather then having to go through showcases.. 
To address the Atom not being enough power.. If stream baby will do multiple HD streams from a 550 mhz (seems to be the lowest that people say works) then how could a dual core 1.6 not be enough.. Its also typically done on atom servers with less then 10% cpu utilization.. 

@TGC.. your post was most helpfull, but it has mostly just shown me that I need to change things a little bit. If it has to be ripped this can be an automatic process.. Also as for the sizes of the files a 720p should end up in the 6-8 GB range with a 1080p being 10-12gb.. Thats basing it on the sized of BR rips that you can download from the net.. & They do look very very good streamed to my Tivo via StreamBaby on a 47" LG lcd (soon to be replaced with a 60" lg plasma)..

Also though if apps liek streambaby are able to trans code on the fly I Dont get why one couldn't simply trans code the BR on the fly as well & all codecs would be being used from the PC so codecs should not be an issue regardless of what was used on the BR disk.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I don't think you want to be ripping any BDs with an Atom processor. It would be extremely slow.
It's already slow enough with a quad core processor, especially if you are talking about changing the bitrate and resolution. I would think an atom processor would takes days to accomplish this.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> Great information TGC!
> The streaming app is called Stream, Baby, Stream! (commonly referred to as just streambaby). Many pages about it can be found here:
> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=416858
> and here:
> ...


Problem with that is "breaking" the DRM which is against the DCRMA (Sp?), or in other words is against the law. That is why all the programs that can rip DVD's and Blu-rays come from European or Asian software developers.

RealAudio is still fighting legal battles over it's DVD ripping software. But it's an american company.

So while it would be possible for the Streaming app to directly read (Rip), an transcode on the fly to stream to the TiVo, the application would also have to be able to decrypt the DRM found on Blu-rays and DVD's. Which currently isn't legally possible without paying HUGE sums of money for LICENSING.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

orangeboy said:


> Doesn't Netflix use VC1 to stream their content to TiVo?


Yes it does, but its DRM encrypted as well, and part of the decoding & handling of the VC1 stream is handled by the Netflix app that is on the TiVo.

But eve if it does. It DOESN'T help with what the OP wants to do, & that is stream a Blu-ray disc to the TiVo.

Because of DRM, he will still have to RIP the disc first.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> There are better stand alone solutions for streaming ripped Blu-ray Disc titles that will play the DTS-HD/Dolby True HD codecs and decode the video stream. TiVo shouldn't even be on the list when thinking about doing this. Not if you want it to sound and look the best.


I agree 100% with that statement.

I have the LG BD390 Blu-ray player. It has Network Media Player capabilities built in. As well as Vudu & Netflix as well.

For the Blu-ray discs I allready own. I have ripped them and store them on a NAS. I then play them on my BD390 and it plays like a charm. It will even play DTS audio as well as DD5.1 too.

Popcorn Hour works well too, If anyone has been watching Engadget lately. About 5 or 6 new Networked Media players that ARE HD 1080p capable have recently been released that sell for $99 to $199. The new WD HD media player I think is $119 and works great. Or so my neighbor says.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

icehole said:


> @TGC.. your post was most helpfull, but it has mostly just shown me that I need to change things a little bit. If it has to be ripped this can be an automatic process.. Also as for the sizes of the files a 720p should end up in the 6-8 GB range with a 1080p being 10-12gb.. Thats basing it on the sized of BR rips that you can download from the net.. & They do look very very good streamed to my Tivo via StreamBaby on a 47" LG lcd (soon to be replaced with a 60" lg plasma)..
> 
> Also though if apps liek streambaby are able to trans code on the fly I Dont get why one couldn't simply trans code the BR on the fly as well & all codecs would be being used from the PC so codecs should not be an issue regardless of what was used on the BR disk.


I don't know much about the "Streambaby" application program. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't easily be able to support any of the codecs that are popular to easily transcode any of the files that would be found on the Blu-ray disc and make playable on the TiVo. With maybe the exception of VC-1 INTERLACED video. As FFMPEG (Which I know is used by "Streambaby") does NOT support VC-1 1080i interlaced video.

The problem you will have *STILL* goes back to the DRM content that Blu-ray discs use. Which is AACS, and BD+. You will have to find a way to "RIP" on the fly. Currently I don't know of any program that can do this. That is remove the DRM encryption on the fly for streaming purposes. I do have several programs that allow me to "Rip" the blu-ray to my hard drive. But they won't "Rip" on the fly. Or in other words, The player software *WON'T* play my Blu-ray and watch it on the computer, unless I plug in an HDCP compliant monitor.

Regarding file sizes. If you rip from the blu-ray, and *DON'T* do any transcoding of the video track, & remove the Core DTS 5.1 or Core Dolby AC3 5.1 audio track. The file size coming off the Blu-rays are anywhere from 15gb to 41gb per movie. File size also depends on movie length as well. I have noticed that 2hrs of 1080p VC-1 content seems to be smaller than 2hrs of 1080p H.264 content.

Now... like I said in my original post. YOU CAN do some additional processing/transcoding to reduce file sizes. The HD movies you download from bittorrent etc and otehr sites on the internet have done this. Using decent programs & following a few guidelines you *CAN* reduce file size quite a bit and still maintain a level of decent quality. This is mainly done by reducing BIT RATE. ie.... Some blu-rays the movie is encoded with a bit rate as much as 30mpbs, thus producing a larger file size. If you reduce it to 15mbps, you have reduced file size by as much as 50%.

However.. from my OWN experiance. Many blu-rays that I have ripped & reduced file sizes by 10% to 30% I can NOT tell the difference between those & the original on my 32" LCD. However... on my 65" Plasma in my living room. I CAN tell the difference.

Screen size makes all the difference in the world. The smaller the screen you have the more you can reduce file size WITHOUT noticing any degration in quality. The larger the screen size, the MORE noticeable it will be.

I will give you an example. "LOST" recorded on my TiVo, through cable from the local broadcaster. Recieved at full 1080i. Takes about 9gb on my TiVo. When I "RIP" the SAME episode from the Blu-ray disc, & do NOT do any transcoding to reduce the file size. The file size for that SAME episode is 16gb. Going from 1080i to 1080p only makes a very small difference. Less than a 1gb difference. The difference is in Bit Rate. The Blu-ray disc has a higher bit rate stream for that episode than what the network, cable company and TiVo is producing. This BIT RATE difference is WHY... the PQ of the same episode of "LOST" is MUCH better than the one I recorded with my TiVo.

One additional note. When I compare the difference between the same episodes of "LOST" on my 32" LCD I am UNABLE to tell the difference from the Blu-ray version from the Network TV version. On my 65" plasma. I can.

The point being is this though... In all honesty reduce the file size as much as you want or desire while keeping the PQ to a level that is acceptable to you. Thats what really counts, my opinion of my acceptable PQ is different than yours. Personally I want the best PQ possible at all times and I don't care about file sizes.

If you can find a way to "Break" the DRM management of Blu-rays "on the fly" then "Streambaby" should work for 98% of the Blu-rays available. Very few of them use VC-1 interlaced. (The only Blu-Rays I have come across with VC-1 Interlaced is Torchwood & Dr. Who)

TGC


----------



## mangocat1 (Mar 1, 2009)

Not to thread crap but... 

I cannot for the life of me get a HD movie from my PC streamed fast enough to the TiVo. I have to wait like an hour (or more depending on the movie length) so the buffer can build up enough. I'm using Stream, Baby, Stream... these are "720p quality" movies...


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

I'm pretty sure that VLC Player has the ability to stream DVD, with options to transcode the output. But as far as I know, there isn't a VLC app for the TiVo. That makes me think that StreamBaby with some modifications could handle* playing from a DVD device.

*given enough CPU to decrypt the DVD DRM and transcode the output stream


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

orangeboy said:


> I'm pretty sure that VLC Player has the ability to stream DVD, with options to transcode the output. But as far as I know, there isn't a VLC app for the TiVo. That makes me think that StreamBaby with some modifications could handle* playing from a DVD device.
> 
> *given enough CPU to decrypt the DVD DRM and transcode the output stream


And of course leave it to wmcbrine to supply an HME/VLC application: HME/VLC video streamer, v3.5


----------



## icehole (Nov 26, 2009)

mangocat1 said:


> Not to thread crap but...
> 
> I cannot for the life of me get a HD movie from my PC streamed fast enough to the TiVo. I have to wait like an hour (or more depending on the movie length) so the buffer can build up enough. I'm using Stream, Baby, Stream... these are "720p quality" movies...


For the 720p ones I have to wait about 10 minutes for buffer & then never catch up to it unless I fast forward..

As for the DRM I have never found DRM to be an issue when playing from a PC regardless of the medium..

And as for BR having to be ripped 1st thats a given at this point.. Now its jsut a matter of automating the process so that when a BR is dropped in it automatically does its thing & a while later I am watching it on my Tivo..

This conversation has also convinced me that I will probably be using Ubuntu server now as well since its a little more flexible for me to setup whats needed over WHS.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

icehole said:


> And as for BR having to be ripped 1st thats a given at this point.. Now its jsut a matter of automating the process so that when a BR is dropped in it automatically does its thing & a while later I am watching it on my Tivo..
> 
> This conversation has also convinced me that I will probably be using Ubuntu server now as well since its a little more flexible for me to setup whats needed over WHS.


Either we're not doing a good job writing or you're not doing a good job reading. About the only program that will let you bypass DRM and rip a BRD is anydvd hd which is a windows program. It won't work on a linux machine.

The time it will take to rip a BRD and convert it the format you download from torrent sites will probably take 24 hours (or more) with your hardware. A quad processor is generally used and the process can still take overnight.

JMO but you'd be better off either using a DVD or internet torrent as your source.


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

TGC, let me ask you a question, since you didn't mention bitrate issues. Assuming compatible format and that you get around the transfer speed issues by pushing, are you able to play back MP4 files remuxed from blu-ray discs without re-encoding, or do you have to transcode to lower bitrates?

F



TexasGrillChef said:


> Sorry to be a spoil sport. But the simple answer is *NO*.
> 
> However.... there *ARE* work arounds.
> 
> ...


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

fyodor said:


> TGC, let me ask you a question, since you didn't mention bitrate issues. Assuming compatible format and that you get around the transfer speed issues by pushing, are you able to play back MP4 files remuxed from blu-ray discs without re-encoding, or do you have to transcode to lower bitrates?
> 
> F


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=431295

Looks like you need a lower bitrate.

Does anyone know how much better the PQ will be with BRD rip after you significantly lower the bitrate vs a DVD without having to reduce the bitrate.


----------



## icehole (Nov 26, 2009)

lew said:


> Either we're not doing a good job writing or you're not doing a good job reading. About the only program that will let you bypass DRM and rip a BRD is anydvd hd which is a windows program. It won't work on a linux machine.
> 
> The time it will take to rip a BRD and convert it the format you download from torrent sites will probably take 24 hours (or more) with your hardware. A quad processor is generally used and the process can still take overnight.
> 
> JMO but you'd be better off either using a DVD or internet torrent as your source.


If its taking you that long to rip a Blue Ray then try this..


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

lew said:


> Either we're not doing a good job writing or you're not doing a good job reading. About the only program that will let you bypass DRM and rip a BRD is anydvd hd which is a windows program. It won't work on a linux machine.
> 
> The time it will take to rip a BRD *and convert it the format you download from torrent sites *will probably take 24 hours (or more) with your hardware. A quad processor is generally used and the process can still take overnight.
> 
> JMO but you'd be better off either using a DVD or internet torrent as your source.





icehole said:


> If its taking you that long to rip a Blue Ray then try this..


I think your reply is kind of rude, considering you missed half my statment. I bolded it, and enlarged the type so you could read it. Why don't you just gogole your question? You don't seem to agree with, or like, the answers you're getting.


----------



## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

icehole said:


> If its taking you that long to rip a Blue Ray then try this..


Burning <> ripping. Ripping is processor intensive and could take ages on a low-powered CPU. You do the math - 45 minutes won't be anywhere near the answer.


----------



## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

icehole said:


> If its taking you that long to rip a Blue Ray then try this..


That search lists more info on how long it takes to burn a BD.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

I don't get using S3 TiVos for something like this as they are just not well suited for BD playback at all. You cannot output 1080p (yes it can decode 1080p but can output at best 1080i) from TiVos and the codecs that can be decoded are pretty limited in scope and range. So you end up going through a lot of trouble and jumping over lots of hoops to end up with a substantially diminished picture and audio quality. As stated there are much better devices devoted to this kind of need.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I assume the OP has reading issues. He selectively reads parts of posts in this thread. He didn't bother reading the google link he posted.

One poster in that link indicates converting his BR rips takes 6 hours with a *quad core 3.6Ghz computer*. The OP has dual core 1.6 Ghz machine (Atom processor). 24 hours to re-encoce the BR rip sounds reasonable.


----------



## rocko (Oct 29, 2002)

lew said:


> I assume the OP has reading issues. He selectively reads parts of posts in this thread. He didn't bother reading the google link he posted.
> 
> One poster in that link indicates converting his BR rips takes 6 hours with a *quad core 3.6Ghz computer*. The OP has dual core 1.6 Ghz machine (Atom processor). 24 hours to re-encoce the BR rip sounds reasonable.


IMO 24 hours would be highly optimistic. As others might have stated, I think the whole idea needs re-thinking. Start by 86-ing the Bluray idea and move on from there.


----------



## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

lew said:


> Either we're not doing a good job writing or you're not doing a good job reading. About the only program that will let you bypass DRM and rip a BRD is anydvd hd which is a windows program. It won't work on a linux machine.


???


----------



## Da Goon (Oct 22, 2006)

lew said:


> One poster in that link indicates converting his BR rips takes 6 hours with a *quad core 3.6Ghz computer*. The OP has dual core 1.6 Ghz machine (Atom processor). 24 hours to re-encoce the BR rip sounds reasonable.


pfftt...

I've ripped numerous bluray discs and re-encoded them for tivo use. manual re-encoding to mpeg2 with ffmpeg finishes in a little short of real time (dual core 3.0). If I let pytivo+ffmpeg do the job, it takes a 1.5x real time to xfer to the tivo.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

Da Goon said:


> pfftt...
> 
> I've ripped numerous bluray discs and re-encoded them for tivo use. manual re-encoding to mpeg2 with ffmpeg finishes in a little short of real time (dual core 3.0). If I let pytivo+ffmpeg do the job, it takes a 1.5x real time to xfer to the tivo.


I wonder why pyTivo+ffmpeg takes longer?


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Da Goon said:


> ???


I kind of meant any program that works
http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=481&start=45

I don't use AnyDVD HD but I undersand it's frequently updated.



Da Goon said:


> pfftt...
> 
> I've ripped numerous bluray discs and re-encoded them for tivo use. manual re-encoding to mpeg2 with ffmpeg finishes in a little short of real time (dual core 3.0). If I let pytivo+ffmpeg do the job, it takes a 1.5x real time to xfer to the tivo.


Every thread I've read said a quality re-encode (double pass with h.264 encoder) will probably take 24 hours (or more) with the OPs system.

Does it make sense to start with a BRD then degrade the quality?

Is your PQ significantly better then a straight DVD rip with no re-encoding?


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

lew said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=431295
> 
> Looks like you need a lower bitrate.
> 
> Does anyone know how much better the PQ will be with BRD rip after you significantly lower the bitrate vs a DVD without having to reduce the bitrate.


That depends on how much you lower the bitrate as well as a few other settings.

It also depends on the movie as well. Some movies you can lower it quite a bit, others not very much.

ALSO... The SIZE and TYPE of HDTV you have can make a WORLD of difference.

Like I said above.... Things I notice on a Pioneer 65" plasma, I DON'T notice on a 32" LCD TV.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

I use AnyDVD HD on my computer. So far it has been able to Rip every single Blu-ray disc I have thrown at it. Since I started using the program they have updated it about 2 dozen times. They usually update at least once a month. Most of the time more. Especially if there are any reports of it not working with any major release Blu-rays.

I am using a 3.2ghz Duo Qaud core system. 16gb DDR3 ram, 32gb Readyboost, 300gb 10,000 RPM drive for C: with a 128gb SSD drive that processes the ripped Blu-ray.

I rip the blue-ray to the SSD drive, Then process it from the SSD drive as well. 

Ripping the Blu-ray from the disc to SSD takes anywhere from 20 min to 40 min. Depending on how much data is on the disc. 25gb discs take 20 min, 50gb discs take 40 min.

Processing a H.264 DTS-HD/TrueHD M2TS file to a H.264 DTS/AC3 MKV takes about 30 to 45min depending on the size of the movie. I make NO adjustments what-so-ever. To the video track or audio. No bit-rate adjustments or any other adjustments.

Processing a VC-1 DTS-HD/TrueHD encoded blu-ray to H.264 DTS/AC3 MKV takes about 8 to 12 hours. No adjustments made to video or audio. Other than the conversion of VC-1 to H.264.

I then play these on my LG BD390 Networked Blu-ray player. VERY little quality loss is noticeable on my 65" plasma. Absolutely no quality loss is noticed on my 32" LCD.

I could use pyTiVo to transfer these to my TiVo. Although it takes 1.5x to 2x the length of the movie to transfer. The TiVo can't decode DTS. So I play it on my BD390. I have just purcahsed the new Western Digital HD media player, & it plays them just fine with DTS decoding. I use the WD HD media player on my 32" LCD TV.

BTW.... to the OP.... In my bedroom. The one I use the 32" LCD TV on. I have my receiver, Tivo, UPS and WD Media player in my closet. I use a IR extender and everything works like a charm. No need to ever touch anything in the closet!  Since you said you had your equipment mounted up out of reach. You might want to consider something like that. The WD media player is about the size of 2 cans of beer side by side. Weighs about 1/2 pound. You could easily Double stick tape it, or Velcro it to the top or bottom of your TiVo, or even the side of it for that matter.

TGC


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

To answer the question on unaltered DVD vs Tivo maxrate recode from BD, the answer, MOST OF THE TIME is the HD BD recode looks far better and has far more detail. The tivo maxbitrate is more than capable of fully supporting 720p and for most content, 1080i. I have yet to find anyone that can HEAR much of a difference between a properly encoded AC3 DD 5.1 soundtrack and the same track encoded with DTS at 3x the bitrate.

Its very convienient to have ALL media accessable from any tv in the house using the same set of menus etc. I do wish the next gen Tivo would support 1080p and DTS but they are minor compared to the added complexity and lessor functionality of multiple delivery systems.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I think the OPs question was answered.

I'm curious of the PQ (large HD TV set) differences:
1) BRD--BR player obviously the best.
2) BRD reincoded to tivo max bitrate (10-12)?
3) high quality HD cable (HD Net)
4) DVD with no encoding.

You indicate the reencoded BRD generally has better PQ then a DVD. Do you think the PQ is better then a movie shown on HDnet?



jcthorne said:


> To answer the question on unaltered DVD vs Tivo maxrate recode from BD, the answer, MOST OF THE TIME is the HD BD recode looks far better and has far more detail. The tivo maxbitrate is more than capable of fully supporting 720p and for most content, 1080i. I have yet to find anyone that can HEAR much of a difference between a properly encoded AC3 DD 5.1 soundtrack and the same track encoded with DTS at 3x the bitrate.
> 
> Its very convienient to have ALL media accessable from any tv in the house using the same set of menus etc. I do wish the next gen Tivo would support 1080p and DTS but they are minor compared to the added complexity and lessor functionality of multiple delivery systems.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

lew said:


> I think the OPs question was answered.
> 
> I'm curious of the PQ (large HD TV set) differences:
> 1) BRD--BR player obviously the best.
> ...


The TiVo can easily handle a Blu-ray encoding of up to 20Mbps. I have tested this and the PQ is BETTER than the quality you get from any HD station. AS good as HDNet? Well back in the day when I had HDnet (TWC dropped HDnet) It was most of the time better than HDnet. Depended on the movie in question. The problem with this though was the transfer time TO the TiVo was again 1.5x to 2.5x the movie length. But to answer your question, if done properly, then yes the PQ of a Blu-ray rip will in 99% of the cases be as good if not better than HDNet when watched with the TiVo. If your using another device to play back the Blu-ray rip. Then I would say it would 99.999% of the time always be better than HDNet.

The OP CAN do what he would like... with some caveats. He has to rip the Blu-ray first, and remux the file into a file TD+ 2.8 or pyTiVo can then read & transfer to the TiVo. He just has to realize that he will need to transfer the movie before he wants to watch it & the time it will take to transfer it to the TiVo.

You are right the OP's questions have been answered... so here are his choices.

1. Do Nothing.

2. Rip & mux a Blu-ray to the hard drive, and use TD+ or pyTiVo to transfer it to the TiVo.

3. Buy media player or blu-ray and mount it to his system.

He doesn't have much choices. IMHO.

TGC


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

If the remuxed BD is stored in a tivo compatible .mp4 file, it will transfer faster than real time on most hard wired networks. I have no trouble pushing an mp4 file to tivo using pytivo, walking to the living room, sitting down and watching the flic while it continues transfering. Just a few minutes head start seems sufficient to start playing. If I could call for pytivo to push the file from the tivo, it could happen all from the comfort of the sofa. Streambaby does this but I do not run that just for that one function, other than that, pytivo does everything I need for video and photos. Most movies I push to the tivo ahead of time storing a selection of titles I want to see on the tivo and only the large archive collection on the server.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

TexasGrillChef said:


> The TiVo can easily handle a Blu-ray encoding of up to 20Mbps. I have tested this and the PQ is BETTER than the quality you get from any HD station.


What kind of file? I thought the best way to handle HD is to encode as MP4 and push the file. I was under the impression 10-12 Mbps is the maximum bitrate? I've read a 10 Mbps bit rate with a mp4 file gives equivalent PQ to a 20 Mbps mpeg file.



jcthorne said:


> If the remuxed BD is stored in a tivo compatible .mp4 file, it will transfer faster than real time on most hard wired networks.


What program do you use to remux? What settings? I know you need double pass if you're going to a tiny file. Can you get away with single pass if you're not looking for a small file but using the maximum bitrate tivo can handle?


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

lew said:


> What kind of file? I thought the best way to handle HD is to encode as MP4 and push the file. I was under the impression 10-12 Mbps is the maximum bitrate? I've read a 10 Mbps bit rate with a mp4 file gives equivalent PQ to a 20 Mbps mpeg file.
> 
> What program do you use to remux? What settings? I know you need double pass if you're going to a tiny file. Can you get away with single pass if you're not looking for a small file but using the maximum bitrate tivo can handle?


Example...

The Movie "UP" ripped directly from the Blu-ray. No changes to the video track (H.264). Downcoverted DTS-HD audio to AC3 audio.

Original Video track from the Blu-ray or on the computer as a file plays with an average Bitrate of 19mbps. Max at 25mbps. Total file size of MKV 23gb.

Transfered to the TiVo over a wired network in about 3hrs. (Slower than real time)

I use AnyDVD HD to rip the Blu-ray.
I then check the Blu-ray to determine if it was encoded with H.264 video or VC-1 video. I also check to see if the movie is ONE (1) contiguous M2TS file, or if it is multiple M2TS files.

If it is a H.264 file, and in one contiguous m2ts file. I simply use "TSmuxer" to demux the Video track, & Audio track. (It will automatically downcovert DTS-HD or TrueHD down to it's core tracks). I then use "TSmuxer" again to create a NEW M2TS file containing the UNALTERED video track and the new downconverted audio track. (DTS or AC3).

This file will play just fine on my LG BD-390. If the audio is AC3 I can also transfer it to my TiVo. PyTiVo can transfer the file and convert DTS to AC3 and thusly play on my TiVo as well. However TD+ 2.8 can NOT convert DTS to AC3. It will transfer the video, but I won't get any audio. (If I use TD+)

If the H.264 file is MULTIPLE M2TS files. I then use "MAKEMKV". This will pull & combine all the correct M2TS files in their correct order, pull the Core audio track (DTS or AC3) and write out a MKV file that contains the UNALTERED video track & the Core audio track. Same play characteristics as the previous H.264 Blu-ray movie that had just one contiguous M2TS file.

If the Blu-ray was encoded with VC-1 video. (Interlaced or Progressive). I use "BD-Rebuilder". Because it will convert the VC-1 video to H.264 video. The ending file size is ALWAYS larger than the original VC-1 file though. It will also pull the core audio from DTS-HD or TrueHD. It will also convert DTS to AC3 if you desire. If you decide to use "BD-Rebuilder" let me know and I can give you the settings to use with it. As it can be long & complicated. If you want the best settings that is.

If the Blu-ray was using H.264 video. I can rip & have a playable file on my TiVo AND/OR my LG BD390 player in less than 2-3 hours. Although transfering it to my TiVo could take another 3 hours.

VC-1 encoded Blu-rays however take a VERY long time to process. As it's decoding and transcoding the video track from VC-1 encoding to H.264 encoding. It is using 2-pass H.264 encoding with all the quality levels set to "Best". Total processing time from Rip to playable file. Is about 8-14 hours depending on the length of the movie. ie 1.5hr movie can be done in about 8 hours, while a 2.5 movie will take about 14 hours.

Here is one other interesting note. Useing the SAME movie file, & playing on the TiVo, & comparing that to playback on my LG BD390. The LG BD390 does produce a better PQ than the TiVo. SQ is exactly the same on both units. (Assuming an AC3 audio track). This is being viewed on a 65" Pioneer Plasma.

On my 32" LCD I *CAN'T* tell the difference between the output of the TiVo as compared to the Western Digital HD media player. I don't know if thats because of the size of the TV being small enough to hide the differences, or if the quality of the WD media player is the same as the TiVo.

Like I have always said... Alot has to do with the TV your actually going to be watching the ripped video on. The larger the TV, the more you will notice differences. If your watching everything on a 32" TV I don't think you will notice much. 65" you almost certainly will.

TGC

P.S. I have pyTiVo set with a Max Video Bitrate of 25mbps. (25000) Everything seems to work so far.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

I didn't think tivo could (directly) handle a MKV file. Are you using PyTivo (FFMPEG) to convert the file down to a mpeg? Is that better then converting the video to a pushable MP4 file?

'


TexasGrillChef said:


> Example...
> 
> The Movie "UP" ripped directly from the Blu-ray. No changes to the video track (H.264). Downcoverted DTS-HD audio to AC3 audio.
> 
> ...


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

lew said:


> I didn't think tivo could (directly) handle a MKV file. Are you using PyTivo (FFMPEG) to convert the file down to a mpeg? Is that better then converting the video to a pushable MP4 file?
> 
> '


I can't speak for earlier versions of TD+, but TD+ 2.8 *WILL* support *SOME* MKV file transfers to your TiVo.

pyTiVo using FFMPEG will aslo transfer *MOST* MKV files to your TiVo as well. What pyTiVo with FFMPEG *WON'T* do with MKV are the following:

*ANY* MKV file containing *INTERLACED* (1080i) VC-1 video.

It also *won't* handle down-converting any DTS-HD or TrueHD audio track to AC3.

Both of these issues are with FFMPEG and *NOT* pyTiVo. *BEFORE* the lastest version of FFMPEG was released, FFMPEG would not even support VC-1 video codecs. Now it will, but only if its PROGRESSIVE. Maybe in the next release of FFMPEG it might end up supporting interlaced VC-1.

TiVo can directly handle the H.264 and MPG2 video codecs. The Video codecs have nothing to do with MKV. MKV are "Containers". So an MKV file can hold a video that was encoded with H.264 (MPG4), or MPG2, or VC-1. It can also handle DTS-HD and TrueHD audio tracks, as well as Subtitle tracks within the MKV file.

MPG2 & MPG4 (H.264) are both a type of video codec as well as container. (I know it can get confusing)

I have not been able to tell any difference in transfer speeds to my TiVo if I mux the h.264 (Mpg4) into a MKV or if it's muxed into a MP4 type container. The reason I believe you don't notice a difference in transfer speed, is that in *BOTH* a MP4 file and a MKV file, the video track is still a H.264 encoded video.

Suffice it to say, that if you use the latest version of TD+ (2.8) or the latest version of pyTiVo with the latest version of FFMPEG. You will be able to easily transfer MKV files to your TiVo. Providing the Video track is either H.264, or MPG2, or PROGRESSIVE (720p, or 1080p) VC-1. (NO 1080i VC-1). Also the audio track should allready be down-converted to AC3. As this will speed up the transfer process as the audio won't have to be converted prior to transfer. (On the fly).

Another note.. I may have said before. After a little research. It appears that all the major studios that are releasing Blu-rays are using either the H.264 or VC-1 codec. It also appears that except for a minor exception hear or there, that a studio is either supporting one video codec or the other on it's blu-ray releases. Not both. Examples....

NBC/Universial released Blu-rays are almost always VC-1
Warner Brothers.... VC-1
Sony & Disney are almost always H.264

Here is one exception to the rule._ "Paramount". _Which owns the rights to "Star Trek" in colaboration with _CBS_. The _Star Trek _Movie Blu-rays are being released using the H.264 video codecs. _Star Trek TV _series Blu-rays are using the VC-1 video codec.

Another exception to the rule are BBC "British" TV series that are imported to the USA and relased on Blu-ray. Example. _Torchwood_ & _Dr. Who _on Blu-ray are all INTERLACED (1080i) VC-1 encoded._ Monty Python's Flying Circus _on the other hand is a H.264 encoded Blu-ray.

H.264 is the quick and easy. VC-1 will takes some time to convert to H.264.

Either way.... I would recomend creating MKV files of your Blu-ray Rips for playing on the TiVo & using pyTiVo as your transfer program. You can push an MKV file to your TiVo with pyTiVo, or you can pull it from your TiVo as well with pyTiVo.

TGC


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

MKV container is *NOT* natively supported by TiVo (at least with current production released software), so regardless if you use TD+ or pyTivo anything in that container will be transcoded on the fly to mpeg2 during transfer and therefore degrade quality. If you want to natively push (no transcoding) H.264+AC3 to your TiVo then you have to use *MP4* container. Furthermore, TD+ 2.8 pretty much blows for native file pushes compared to pyTivo - see the table at the bottom of video_compatiblity Wiki for a comparison of TD+ 2.8 pushes vs pyTivo as well as information on what can be pushed natively to TiVos.

I haven't tested to see what the upper limits of H.264 bit rates Series 3 TiVos can decode, so if someone has some information on that I can update the Wiki page accordingly.

Also of note is that TiVo can decode VC-1 video natively as indicated in Wiki page (that's what Netflix & Amazon are using). The problem is it's very picky about wanting only 2 channel WMA9 audio with CBR bit rate so if nothing else you have to downgrade audio significantly. Also I have not tested upper limits of VC-1 bit rates TiVo supports.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> I don't get using S3 TiVos for something like this as they are just not well suited for BD playback at all. You cannot output 1080p (yes it can decode 1080p but can output at best 1080i) from TiVos and the codecs that can be decoded are pretty limited in scope and range. So you end up going through a lot of trouble and jumping over lots of hoops to end up with a substantially diminished picture and audio quality. As stated there are much better devices devoted to this kind of need.


Oh, I do. First of all, he may not have a 1080p capable TV, or at least not a native 1080p. Even if he does, it may not be a very large monitor. Either way, a 1080p stream's capabilities are moot compared to 1080i in such cases. Perhaps more importantly, however, using a single device (the TiVo) as a source for all video greatly simplifies TV viewing. One needn't bother either with multiple remotes or a universal remote which is potentially rather expensive and simultaneously not best suited to handle any of the specific devices - especially the TiVo. One needn't bother with switching inputs on the TV or AVR. In my case, for example, I all but completely quit watching any of my DVDs despite the fact I have a very nice AVR and a 400 Disc DVD player in the theater, until the new DVD plug-in was developed for pyTivo. Of course, one reason I stopped was the lower resolution, but now that they are all available right from the NPL, I am once again watching some of my DVDs, my dislike for their low PQ notwithstanding. If ripping from a BRD and saving to the video server is potentially as practical, then I myself might consider investing in a Blu-ray disc for my PC and getting some BRD discs, ripping them to the server for playing on any of my TVs at any time.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

moyekj said:


> MKV container is *NOT* natively supported by TiVo (at least with current production released software), so regardless if you use TD+ or pyTivo anything in that container will be transcoded on the fly to mpeg2 during transfer and therefore degrade quality. If you want to natively push (no transcoding) H.264+AC3 to your TiVo then you have to use *MP4* container. Furthermore, TD+ 2.8 pretty much blows for native file pushes compared to pyTivo - see the table at the bottom of video_compatiblity Wiki for a comparison of TD+ 2.8 pushes vs pyTivo as well as information on what can be pushed natively to TiVos.
> 
> I haven't tested to see what the upper limits of H.264 bit rates Series 3 TiVos can decode, so if someone has some information on that I can update the Wiki page accordingly.
> 
> Also of note is that TiVo can decode VC-1 video natively as indicated in Wiki page (that's what Netflix & Amazon are using). The problem is it's very picky about wanting only 2 channel WMA9 audio with CBR bit rate so if nothing else you have to downgrade audio significantly. Also I have not tested upper limits of VC-1 bit rates TiVo supports.


Since the Video Track of a MP4 and a H.264 MKV are the same. (Both H.264 video) I am not for sure what transcoding is done by TD+ or FFMPEG (pyTiVo). Other than maybe changing it to a MP4 container format.

I have created a MP4 file from a MKV file as well as directly from the M2TS file. Transfer time of the MP4, MKV and M2TS file were all exactly the same for me. I used both pyTiVo and TD+ 2.8. There were differences in speed between pyTiVo and TD+. But no "Time" differences between MP4, MKV & M2TS. AT LEAST ON MY SYSTEM!

Now if someone else is getting differences in time it takes to transfer between container formats (MP4, MKV, & M2TS). Then I would like to know why they are, and I am not. Mainly because I would like to know if my system is slowing down the transfer of one of the file types to the slowest speed, OR if it's just very efficient at transfering the other two formats so that it's as fast as the fastest format is suppose to be. (If that makes sense... is my computer just going really slow, or is it just really fast)

As far as bitrate speed goes. With H.264 video. I do have pyTiVo set with MaxVideoBitrate at 25mpbs (25000). I have transfered a few HD movies over that least when played on my computer. Showed they were playing with an average video bitrate of 19mbps. With max at just under 25mbps. They played just fine on my TiVo once transfered. So as far as I can tell. The TiVo HD as well as S3 can both easily handle a bitrate of 25mbps. It maybe able to handle faster, but I haven't tried anything yet. I have checked a few other Blu-ray rips. They all seem to be the same bitrate or lower. Haven't found anything yet that has a faster bitrate to test.

I haven't nor will I really test the upper bitrate of VC-1 decoding. As since it requires down-converting your audio to basically "STEREO" and loosing 5.1 surround sound audio. Something I find UNACCEPTABLE. Therfore I either convert VC-1 to H.264 before transfer to the TiVo. Or use MKV containers.

While I am still playing around with using my TiVo's to watch Blu-ray rips. I am in all honesty, just using my LG BD390 player to play my rips on in my Living room (65"), and the WD HD media player in my bedroom (32"). As they both support more file formats and streaming of my HD Blu-ray rips in either MKV &/or M2TS formats. Including FULL support for DTS. Which the TiVo does not suport. (At least currently).

Someday... maybe in a few years. TiVo will have full support for DTS-HD, TrueHD and 1080p. When that times comes. Maybe we can just have one "Player" in our home entertainment centers instead of a 3 or 4 that many of us have now! LOL

TGC


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

TexasGrillChef said:


> I have created a MP4 file from a MKV file as well as directly from the M2TS file. Transfer time of the MP4, MKV and M2TS file were all exactly the same for me. I used both pyTiVo and TD+ 2.8. There were differences in speed between pyTiVo and TD+. But no "Time" differences between MP4, MKV & M2TS. AT LEAST ON MY SYSTEM!


 If you PULL videos (initiating transfers from TiVo) they are always transcoded to mpeg2 no matter what format they are in so in that case it doesn't really matter what the container is as they all transcode similarly.

You will notice a big speedup in transfer time if you PUSH a compatible MP4 which is not transcoded since MP4 transfers much faster than mpeg2 to TiVos.

It's pretty easy to see when transcoding is happening - in windows just open Task Manager and sort by Image Name and look for ffmpeg. I can guarantee you that no matter how you initiate MKV transfers (push or pull) the video is being transcoded to mpeg2.

If you add debug=True under [Server] section in pyTivo.conf and run pyTivo in console mode you will see a lot of debugging info and it will be very clear when transcoding to mpeg2 is happening.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

After some testing, at least with ffmpeg profile given below it looks like max bit rate for H.264 is around 25Mbps for original S3 units. (ffmpeg -b 30000k resulted in about 25Mbps according to MediaInfo for recipe below for me). When I bumped up to -b 35000k or higher TiVo would no longer play it (though it transfers OK).

```
ffmpeg -y -i INPUT -threads 2 -acodec copy -vcodec libx264 -b 30000k -refs 3 -flags2 +mixed_refs+wpred+bpyramid+dct8x8-fastpskip -bf 3 -me_method umh -subq 9 -g 24 -keyint_min 2 -f mp4 OUTPUT
```
(my INPUT was an mpeg2 with AC3 audio)

I've added a ~MAX BIT RATE column to the Wiki page.

It could be a little different for THD units since they have a different decoder chipset.


----------



## icehole (Nov 26, 2009)

lew said:


> Does it make sense to start with a BRD then degrade the quality?


Yes it does.. Its called convince.. I have no other components other then tivo there so thats what I have to work with.. or didn't you read that..

And again the matter of encode time is dependent on the machine & the quality yes, but since streambaby transcodes on the fly there is no need to do as much work on the file from the getgo.. It will simply be a matter of playing with it to see what gives the best quality/speed tradeoff..

& Quit slamming the atom as being underpowered.. Every computer made that broke about 800 Mhz had a bottleneck of a Hard Drive, not a CPU up until you were either running an SSD or a raid 0 or 5 with sata2 drives.. My dual core atom server will be running Raid 5 with 4 drives (and 4gb DDR2) so it will be able to out perform most peoples gaming rigs in all aspect's other then actual video rendering.. & If there is a problem beyond that I Can buy a hardware decoder for the mini pci e slot on the motherboard for less then 50 bucks to make sure there isnt a problem..


----------



## icehole (Nov 26, 2009)

TexasGrillChef said:


> BTW.... to the OP.... In my bedroom. The one I use the 32" LCD TV on. I have my receiver, Tivo, UPS and WD Media player in my closet. I use a IR extender and everything works like a charm. No need to ever touch anything in the closet!  Since you said you had your equipment mounted up out of reach. You might want to consider something like that. The WD media player is about the size of 2 cans of beer side by side. Weighs about 1/2 pound. You could easily Double stick tape it, or Velcro it to the top or bottom of your TiVo, or even the side of it for that matter.
> 
> TGC


Problem is that since its out of reach I still cant reach a Blue Ray player.. Its not a matter of control, but of not getting a chair from the kitchen each time I want to change disk's..

Also I have noticed a Big difference in time it takes to transfer ANY HD files using TivoDesktop or streaming using streambaby. It has proven to be faster to stream & watch then to transfer.. I Tested with a 23 minute show & it was at least twice as fast at the transfer using streambaby.


----------



## Rdian06 (Apr 12, 2008)

orangeboy said:


> I wonder why pyTivo+ffmpeg takes longer?


pyTivo has ffmpeg writing to the network buffer. If the buffer fills up because the Tivo cannot accept the data fast enough, then ffmpeg slows down waiting for more buffer space to complete its writes.

When you use ffmpeg to transcode manually directly to disk, you remove the Tivo receive speed bottleneck.


----------



## Rdian06 (Apr 12, 2008)

TexasGrillChef said:


> It also *won't* handle down-converting any DTS-HD or TrueHD audio track to AC3.


Not sure about the DTS-HD, but I thought ffmpeg included a TrueHD decoder which should allow it to transcode to AC3. See http://ffmpeg.org/ and the March 10, 2009 announcement specifically.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

lew said:


> What program do you use to remux? What settings? I know you need double pass if you're going to a tiny file. Can you get away with single pass if you're not looking for a small file but using the maximum bitrate tivo can handle?


If the file needs reencoding, I use MeGUI, single pass with the correct format settings for Tivo.

If the file just needs remuxing, I use mkvextract and mp4creator.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

jcthorne said:


> If the file needs reencoding, I use MeGUI, single pass with the correct format settings for Tivo.
> 
> If the file just needs remuxing, I use mkvextract and mp4creator.


I may have to look into mp4creator. In the small pool of 7 .mkv videos I have been testing with, with 3 of them, mp4box failed to write the muxed temp file into an true .mp4 file: "Faulting application mp4box.exe, version 0.0.0.0, faulting module ntdll.dll, version 5.1.2600.5755, fault address 0x00010a19." There's mention of libgpac.dll as well. Google doesn't have much of anything to say about this error, so I'm gonna look at alternatives.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Kind of rude when you selectively read/quote my posts. My point was the PQ improvements of a BRD rip with fast (but low quality) encoding may not be much better then the PQ with a DVD rip, with no encoding necessary.

I have no issue with the atom processor, when used in the applications for which it was designed. Every knowledgeable poster said the kind of encoding necessary to *get good PQ *from a BRD rip with your processor will take at least 24 hours.

I suggest you add my to your ignore list. Assume any further posts I make in this thread are a request for information from knowledgeable, helpful posters.



icehole said:


> Yes it does.. Its called convince.. I have no other components other then tivo there so thats what I have to work with.. or *didn't you read that..*
> And again the matter of encode time is dependent on the machine & the quality yes, but since streambaby transcodes on the fly there is no need to do as much work on the file from the getgo.. It will simply be a matter of playing with it to see what gives the best quality/speed tradeoff..
> 
> & Quit slamming the atom as being underpowered.. Every computer made that broke about* 800 Mhz had a bottleneck of a Hard Drive*, not a CPU up until you were either running an SSD or a raid 0 or 5 with sata2 drives.. My dual core atom server will be running Raid 5 with 4 drives (and 4gb DDR2) so it will be able to out perform most peoples gaming rigs in all aspect's* other then actual video rendering.*. & If there is a problem beyond that I Can buy a hardware decoder for the mini pci e slot on the motherboard for less then 50 bucks to make sure there isnt a problem..


----------



## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Since the Video Track of a MP4 and a H.264 MKV are the same. (Both H.264 video) I am not for sure what transcoding is done by TD+ or FFMPEG (pyTiVo). Other than maybe changing it to a MP4 container format.


FFmpeg isn't quite up to the job of remuxing (only) to an MP4 container yet, so the whole thing is reencoded to MPEG-2. You must use an MP4 container to avoid reencoding (and you must Push).


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Just FYI, the difference in speed between pushing an mp4 and pulling the same flic in mkv format is roughly 1/4 the time. It also ends up using 1/2 or less the space on the tivo.

A 1080i MP4 with 5.1 audio pushes at about 1.5x realtime. An mkv pushes or pulls at about .3 realtime from my server (admittedly processor bound for the transcode)


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> FFmpeg isn't quite up to the job of remuxing (only) to an MP4 container yet, so the whole thing is reencoded to MPEG-2. You must use an MP4 container to avoid reencoding (and you must Push).


 There is also the problem of needing to have moov atom at the front of the file in the resulting MP4 container, so at least the way things are now you would have to wait for a full re-mux before applying the qt-faststart function before you could pass along the file for a push which of course makes it unfeasible. That's also why even if processor was capable of H.264 transcode on the fly (instead of mpeg2) the moov issue is still there.


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

moyekj said:


> If you PULL videos (initiating transfers from TiVo) they are always transcoded to mpeg2 no matter what format they are in so in that case it doesn't really matter what the container is as they all transcode similarly.
> 
> You will notice a big speedup in transfer time if you PUSH a compatible MP4 which is not transcoded since MP4 transfers much faster than mpeg2 to TiVos.
> 
> ...


Haven't really played with the "push" functionality of pyTiVo much. Just here and there a few times. But it sounds logical that a "push" vs. a "Pull" would have an effect on how it is transfered to the TiVo and thus could make a difference in transfer time. I will give that a try and see what differences it makes on my system setup.

TGC


----------



## TexasGrillChef (Sep 15, 2006)

Rdian06 said:


> Not sure about the DTS-HD, but I thought ffmpeg included a TrueHD decoder which should allow it to transcode to AC3. See http://ffmpeg.org/ and the March 10, 2009 announcement specifically.


Just ran a quick test on a small file that had TrueHD and I stand corrected. FFMPEG will pull the core audio (AC3) out of a TrueHD audio track. It won't with DTS-HD. All it produced on my TiVo was the video with no audio. When I tried a file with a DTS-HD audio track.

One thing I did notice though. Is having the audio track be TrueHD instead of just AC3 did increase transfer time. Not by much though. Only about 5%.

TGC


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

TexasGrillChef said:


> Haven't really played with the "push" functionality of pyTiVo much. Just here and there a few times. But it sounds logical that a "push" vs. a "Pull" would have an effect on how it is transfered to the TiVo and thus could make a difference in transfer time. I will give that a try and see what differences it makes on my system setup.
> 
> TGC


 It's also not just a question of transfer speed. If you go through all the effort to convert to a format TiVo can natively decode it's really a waste of effort if it ends up being transcoded to mpeg2 on the fly for transfer, not to mention the quality hit.


----------



## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

moyekj said:


> It's also not just a question of transfer speed. If you go through all the effort to convert to a format TiVo can natively decode it's really a waste of effort if it ends up being transcoded to mpeg2 on the fly for transfer, not to mention the quality hit.


Maybe you can answer my question. Is the PQ of a BRD rip, transcoded on the fly to mpeg2 with FFmpeg much better then the PQ of a DVD rip without any transcoding or encoding?


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lew said:


> Maybe you can answer my question. Is the PQ of a BRD rip, transcoded on the fly to mpeg2 with FFmpeg much better then the PQ of a DVD rip without any transcoding or encoding?


 Too many variables for simple yes or no answer. It can be depending on how you setup the mpeg2 transcode parameters and depending on the format of the source. However remember that typically DVD mpeg2 are highly optimized with multi-pass encodes which transcoding on the fly cannot do so I can easily see there will be cases when DVD rip will look better than a BD transcode to mpeg2. Bottom line is if quality is your prime concern then as I've already stated I think TiVo is the wrong medium to use for playback. As others have stated people here are doing it mostly out of convenience to have one device for all their needs at the expense of quality.
If I had to choose between DVD rip without transcoding or a transcoded to mpeg2 BD rip I would go with DVD rip since that is much less hassle/effort and quality is probably almost as good or better most of the time. Now of course if you avoid mpeg2 transcode and go with H.264 + AC3 then that can provide much better quality, but never as good as the original BD when playing on an S3 TiVo.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I can't think of a worse way to watch Blu-Ray discs than trying to get them to play back on a Tivo. I spend much of my time trying to get things off my Tivo rather than putting things on them. Different strokes, I guess.

To the OP, there is no easy way to stream Blu-Ray discs to any remote device other than another PC without going through many of the gyrations spelled out in this thread. What's the point of jumping through all of the hoops described when it will take you several times longer to process the movie than it will actually take you to watch it? Sheer madness if you ask me.

Blu-Ray (there is no "e" in the name) players can be had for as little as $100 with the current sales, even though you say you don't want anymore hardware. Otherwise, consider setting up a server from which you can stream Blu-Ray rips to a remote PC connected to your TV. Check out Dell's new Zino HD based on the mini iTx form factor with the latest low power AMD CPUs for a compact HTPC. You can even get it fitted with a slim Blu-Ray drive for $100 extra. If you feel that Tivo is your only option then I wish you the best of luck.

How I do it: I have a Home Theater PC (HTPC) and an unRAID server connected via my home network. I rip my BDs (short for Blu-Ray discs) on my main PC as iso images using AnyDVD HD. I then strip out the unwanted extras, soundtracks, trailers, commentaries, etc., using Clown_BD and transfer them over to the server. From my HTPC I can mount the iso image using VirtualCloneDrive and then play them back using the app of choice, such as Cyberlink's PowerDVD or ArcSoft's Total Media Theater. Since I have an Asus HDAV 1.3 sound card I can bitstream the HD audio to my Onkyo Pro preamp/processor and play back the Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD soundtracks.

FYI - all BD's have either Dolby Digital or DTS soundtracks in addition to the HD audio so nothing is downconverted for playback if your system does not support either HD audio format.


----------



## SheliaP (Jul 29, 2005)

I am just amazed at trying to think how his setup works. Is this in your home? Largely asking because We have one large wall that goes up approximately 1 1/2 stories in the great room. Certainly could set the TV up about halfway up the wall for nice viewing, or another side where I could use the TV and place the input equipment above it- but I would still have fairly easy access to them-- but I am trying to picture how and why the other elements are 8' above the TV. 

And I am not trying to be rude- I just have this extreme curiosity now, to see how it is setup, and if something like that could work in my room. Would make for movie type viewing.

Thanks


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

lew said:


> Maybe you can answer my question. Is the PQ of a BRD rip, transcoded on the fly to mpeg2 with FFmpeg much better then the PQ of a DVD rip without any transcoding or encoding?


I'd expect so. It should get transcoded to a 20-25 megabit/s MPEG-2, while your DVDs are 6 megabits/s.

From my personal experience, the "deadweight" loss from extra transcoding steps really aren't that bad (as opposed to loss from transferring to low bitrates/resolution). There are people on AVSforums who will transcode their SD TV recordings to 720p H.264 files because the picture quality improvement they get from having a slower-than-real-time upscaler upconvert their videos outweighs the loss of extra transcoding steps.


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

I also understand it. My wife really doesn't like watching stuff on anything other than the Tivo.



lrhorer said:


> Oh, I do. First of all, he may not have a 1080p capable TV, or at least not a native 1080p. Even if he does, it may not be a very large monitor. Either way, a 1080p stream's capabilities are moot compared to 1080i in such cases. Perhaps more importantly, however, using a single device (the TiVo) as a source for all video greatly simplifies TV viewing. One needn't bother either with multiple remotes or a universal remote which is potentially rather expensive and simultaneously not best suited to handle any of the specific devices - especially the TiVo. One needn't bother with switching inputs on the TV or AVR. In my case, for example, I all but completely quit watching any of my DVDs despite the fact I have a very nice AVR and a 400 Disc DVD player in the theater, until the new DVD plug-in was developed for pyTivo. Of course, one reason I stopped was the lower resolution, but now that they are all available right from the NPL, I am once again watching some of my DVDs, my dislike for their low PQ notwithstanding. If ripping from a BRD and saving to the video server is potentially as practical, then I myself might consider investing in a Blu-ray disc for my PC and getting some BRD discs, ripping them to the server for playing on any of my TVs at any time.


----------



## Rdian06 (Apr 12, 2008)

moyekj said:


> There is also the problem of needing to have moov atom at the front of the file in the resulting MP4 container, so at least the way things are now you would have to wait for a full re-mux before applying the qt-faststart function before you could pass along the file for a push which of course makes it unfeasible. That's also why even if processor was capable of H.264 transcode on the fly (instead of mpeg2) the moov issue is still there.


Last I checked, ffmpeg has serious issues remuxing ac3 audio from an mkv to an mp4 container. It can transcode just fine, but remuxing fails with some error about the frame size not being set correctly. And the video I tried to remux once upon a time ended up with really jerky output. So it's more than just the moov atom.

I've always wondered if it's theoretically possible to calculate the moov atom stats during the transcode and not require a second pass. But until the remux is fixed, it's moot.


----------



## Rdian06 (Apr 12, 2008)

lew said:


> Maybe you can answer my question. Is the PQ of a BRD rip, transcoded on the fly to mpeg2 with FFmpeg much better then the PQ of a DVD rip without any transcoding or encoding?


In my opinion, yes if you are outputting to an HD capable display at an HD resolution.

It's the whole garbage in garbage out principle.

With the BRD rip, you start with more overall information and the conversions and lowering the bitrate will discard some of it, but there is still more detail because of the higher resolution.

With the DVD rip, you start with less overall information, though the processing avoid loss of that information.

The colors are definitely not as washed out as on a DVD and some of the scaling effects are avoided.


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Just for grins I used pyTivo to pull a BD rip m2ts file (I am Legend - VC-1 + 6 channel AC3 audio) directly. I was surprised that ffmpeg actually did a good job of transcoding m2ts on the fly to mpeg2 with around 16-20Mbps bitrate for this video and kept A/V sync throughout.

So it seems pretty easy to use the free DVD Fab to rip to m2ts and then just let pyTivo use ffmpeg to transocode m2ts directly with no fuss. Obviously not as good as watching the BD directly via a proper player but really not a bad alternative if you want to watch on TiVo.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> There is also the problem of needing to have moov atom at the front of the file in the resulting MP4 container


You know, I've wondered about this before. I'm certainly no expert in the matter, but my understanding is for the MP4 container, the loss of the moov atom results in the entire file being unplayable. Is that correct? If so, why on Earth would anybody ever create such a protocol? It definitely prevents the format from being feasible for broadcast, since there is no guarantee one will catch the first part of the recording. Even in a hard copy medium, it's pretty frail, as a small error at the beginning of the file can cause the whole file to become unusable. What am I missing, here?


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> However remember that typically DVD mpeg2 are highly optimized with multi-pass encodes which transcoding on the fly cannot do


True, but no matter how many passes are employed, or for that matter if one were to take a raw, uncompressed 480i video stream as the benchmark, the fact is a 480i video stream simply does not have the resolution of a 1080i, and as such looks quite blurry compared to any decent 1080i stream.



moyekj said:


> so I can easily see there will be cases when DVD rip will look better than a BD transcode to mpeg2.


Unless you are speaking of a significantly sub-optimal transcode, that's a pretty strong statement. Certainly I would never contemplate ripping and transcoding a BRD if I can get better results from a DVD.



moyekj said:


> Bottom line is if quality is your prime concern then as I've already stated I think TiVo is the wrong medium to use for playback.


Well, of course, but there is a very wide area between an absolute requirement for the best possible PQ and being willing to live with an acceptable degradation of PQ in order to achieve other goals. Indeed, all compressed video is nothing other than the latter. A strict adherence to the former would require dealing only with uncompressed video. For 1080p HD, that can be a stream in excess of 5 Gbps.



moyekj said:


> As others have stated people here are doing it mostly out of convenience to have one device for all their needs at the expense of quality.


Right. See my statement above. The question becomes, "When is the cost too high?" Certainly if the result looks anywhere nearly as bad as a DVD, then it is far too high.



moyekj said:


> Now of course if you avoid mpeg2 transcode and go with H.264 + AC3 then that can provide much better quality, but never as good as the original BD when playing on an S3 TiVo.


No, of course not. No one should expect it to be. As longs as it still looks great, though, I would say it's worth it.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I can't think of a worse way to watch Blu-Ray discs than trying to get them to play back on a Tivo.


"Worse", based on what criteria?



mr.unnatural said:


> I spend much of my time trying to get things off my Tivo rather than putting things on them.


Well, me, too, but that's not the point.



mr.unnatural said:


> Different strokes, I guess.


Yes. The point is, having to deal with several different means of viewing results in a tendency to develop a preference for only one medium. It may sound uber-lazy, but the fact is when presented with the choice of simply pressing a button or of getting up, searching through a large library of discs, turning on the player, inserting the disc, selecting the source, and then finally sitting back down to enjoy the movie, the former starts winning all the time, the fact the latter media may have many desirable titles available notwithstanding. Yes, it's true the latter media may have an additional lure in terms of superior quality, but the question is, "How superior?" As long as the quality of the former media is more than acceptable, then I, for one, am willing to take a small hit in PQ.



mr.unnatural said:


> What's the point of jumping through all of the hoops described when it will take you several times longer to process the movie than it will actually take you to watch it? Sheer madness if you ask me.


Well, not to speak for the OP, but if I decide to pursue this venue, I don't intend for it to take me very much time at all. I don't really care how much time it takes the video server to get the file onto itself from the BRD and transcode it.



mr.unnatural said:


> Blu-Ray (there is no "e" in the name) players can be had for as little as $100 with the current sales, even though you say you don't want anymore hardware. Otherwise, consider setting up a server from which you can stream Blu-Ray rips to a remote PC connected to your TV. Check out Dell's new Zino HD based on the mini iTx form factor with the latest low power AMD CPUs for a compact HTPC. You can even get it fitted with a slim Blu-Ray drive for $100 extra.


I've thought of something like this. So far, I have not been able to get any PC to work acceptably with either of my HD TVs. Of course, there is still the issue of having to switch between two media, but at least there's no fiddling with all the mechanical issues.



mr.unnatural said:


> If you feel that Tivo is your only option then I wish you the best of luck.


'Certainly not my only option, but if it is a viable one, I have some preference for it.



mr.unnatural said:


> How I do it: I have a Home Theater PC (HTPC)


I'm definitely not interested in a Windows based solution. A Linux based HTPC is a possibility. I'm thinking about fiddling with the theater system again to get a PC working acceptably there.


----------



## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> How I do it: I have a Home Theater PC (HTPC) and an unRAID server connected via my home network. .


Yea, I did the HTPC thing for years. IN the whole time we had it I can count the number of shows my wife watched from the HTPC on one hand. She NEVER used music or photos. Once in a while she would ask me to do it as she knew what was there, just far too much trouble to use. I also had a Series 1 for part of that time and then Sat and then several Cableco DVRs.

Then we got the TivoHD. As pyTivo grew up and added capability, the Tivo took over more and more. The HTPC is gone along with the rediculous power usage. The wife USES the Tivo. Watches flics and shows both on the tivo and from the server. Listens to music from our 8300 Album library all the time and is always showing friends slide shows of our latest trip or party or whatever. Yes the HTPC can for now achieve a bit better PQ on some monitors, but the TivoHD gets USED. ALOT. And did I mention its very green in power usage compared to a HTPC?


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> You know, I've wondered about this before. I'm certainly no expert in the matter, but my understanding is for the MP4 container, the loss of the moov atom results in the entire file being unplayable. Is that correct? If so, why on Earth would anybody ever create such a protocol? It definitely prevents the format from being feasible for broadcast, since there is no guarantee one will catch the first part of the recording. Even in a hard copy medium, it's pretty frail, as a small error at the beginning of the file can cause the whole file to become unusable. What am I missing, here?


 No it's not a requirement of the container. The moov atom can be at the end of the file and can still be played fine by most decoders. It is however a TiVo requirement that it be in the front. Note that the primary official use for mp4 right now is for streaming YouTube videos, so obviously for streaming purposes it needs the information up front since you don't have the whole file available. For a pyTivo "push" the underlying mechanism is still streaming file to the TiVo from a local web server, so obviously same restriction applies. If HME "pulls" of H.264 were supported presumably it wouldn't be necessary to have moov up front.

Still, a different container such as mpeg2 Transport Stream would probably be a better fit. TiVo already is using that container in New Zealand for H.264 recordings, so perhaps one day they may support H.264 in TS container for USA units as well, though I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> "Worse", based on what criteria?
> 
> I'm definitely not interested in a Windows based solution. A Linux based HTPC is a possibility. I'm thinking about fiddling with the theater system again to get a PC working acceptably there.


XBMC paired with the new SFF Ion (atom+nvidia gpu) is very popular and supports playback of HD content. The Acer Aspire Revo sells for $199, though I'm told that the interface is a little sluggish unless you upgrade to the dual core version, which is about $100 bucks more.

http://lifehacker.com/5391308/build-a-silent-standalone-xbmc-media-center-on-the-cheap


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

moyekj said:


> No it's not a requirement of the container. The moov atom can be at the end of the file and can still be played fine by most decoders.


Well, my point is that having any bit of info required for an entire stream to be accessible results in a stream that is not well suited for broadcast or editing purposes, and is overly frail in general. Ideally, one should be able to simply chop out any reasonably sized segment of a stream and have it play without having to have the beginning or end of the file available.



moyekj said:


> Still, a different container such as mpeg2 Transport Stream would probably be a better fit. TiVo already is using that container in New Zealand for H.264 recordings, so perhaps one day they may support H.264 in TS container for USA units as well, though I wouldn't hold my breath.


That would be excellent.


----------



## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

fyodor said:


> XBMC paired with the new SFF Ion (atom+nvidia gpu) is very popular and supports playback of HD content. The Acer Aspire Revo sells for $199, though I'm told that the interface is a little sluggish unless you upgrade to the dual core version, which is about $100 bucks more.
> 
> http://lifehacker.com/5391308/build-a-silent-standalone-xbmc-media-center-on-the-cheap


Thanks! I already have the hardware, except for a remote control widget. Do you have any recommendations for an IR controller?


----------



## fyodor (Sep 19, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> Thanks! I already have the hardware, except for a remote control widget. Do you have any recommendations for an IR controller?


I have the gyration remote, which is basically a Wii-mouse. I like it, but it's a little on the pricey side.

This one looks very appealing, but I've never tried it.

http://efo.buy-lowest.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=180

I'm not sure how well supported either is in XBMC (I use W7 with media browser), but the folks on the XBMC forums could probably tell you. I assume that the latter one at least, presents like a mouse/keyboard and wouldn't need separate driver support.


----------



## Rdian06 (Apr 12, 2008)

lrhorer said:


> Well, my point is that having any bit of info required for an entire stream to be accessible results in a stream that is not well suited for broadcast or editing purposes, and is overly frail in general. Ideally, one should be able to simply chop out any reasonably sized segment of a stream and have it play without having to have the beginning or end of the file available.


The MP4 file specification is open on this. Normally the moov atom is at the end. Moving it to the front allows you to stream it to a degree.

But if you really want robust streaming over protocols that may drop out parts of the stream and are of a long duration, you add a hint track to the MP4. However, adding that hint track increases the size somewhat considerably.

The format is designed to be flexible, but not require the extra overhead of hinting if you aren't going to need it. Think short clips and transport/storage on reliable media (like burned to a DVD or mostly downloaded before playback like YouTube videos.)


----------



## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Rdian06 said:


> But if you really want robust streaming over protocols that may drop out parts of the stream and are of a long duration, you add a hint track to the MP4. However, adding that hint track increases the size somewhat considerably.


 That sounds interesting. How does one go about adding that? Is it possible with ffmpeg or some other open source encoder? I doubt TiVo decoder can make use of it but may be worth some experimentation if you haven't already.


----------



## icehole (Nov 26, 2009)

SheliaP said:


> I am just amazed at trying to think how his setup works. Is this in your home? Largely asking because We have one large wall that goes up approximately 1 1/2 stories in the great room. Certainly could set the TV up about halfway up the wall for nice viewing, or another side where I could use the TV and place the input equipment above it- but I would still have fairly easy access to them-- but I am trying to picture how and why the other elements are 8' above the TV.
> 
> And I am not trying to be rude- I just have this extreme curiosity now, to see how it is setup, and if something like that could work in my room. Would make for movie type viewing.
> 
> Thanks


Its my living room with a vaulted ceiling & There is a plant shelf recessed int he wall above the TV by design to hold components.

@lew >> stop taking crap personally & Google my name (the johnny dangerously reference).. I ain't picking on you, just the way I am.. & The reason I asked about blue ray when DVD would be easier is just that.. If I Get the process working at all for blue ray then it will work fine for DVD as well.. But I Would want it to do both.. I Dont own a blue ray player currently nor do I intend to run out & buy one or start buying BRD's.. But I Want the availability of making them work with what I have when they get handed to me.. As for transcoding times again its a matter of how & what your doing.. I am not going to shoot for super duper high def to stream.. I have over a TB of video in DVD quality now & Dont intend to invest in Western Digital stock just so I Could fix something that ain't broken..


----------



## Rdian06 (Apr 12, 2008)

moyekj said:


> That sounds interesting. How does one go about adding that? Is it possible with ffmpeg or some other open source encoder? I doubt TiVo decoder can make use of it but may be worth some experimentation if you haven't already.


I gave up on mp4 work a while ago when I ran into the ffmpeg roadblocks. I pull everything from a Core2Quad box where transcoding happens in near enough realtime or faster even for HD. Just less of a hassle.

It seems the hint track can be added by mp4box or mp4creator. See:

http://mpeg4ip.sourceforge.net/docs/

http://en.jnlin.org/2008/11/16/15/

Unfortunately adding the hint track appears to be something you do in a second pass just like shuffling the moov atom.


----------



## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

lrhorer said:


> "Worse", based on what criteria?


Based on the amount of time involved just to get a Blu-Ray disc ripped and processed for viewing on a Tivo. It's not a simple process and simply not worth the effort, IMHO, especially when there are more convenient methods available.



> Yes. The point is, having to deal with several different means of viewing results in a tendency to develop a preference for only one medium. It may sound uber-lazy, but the fact is when presented with the choice of simply pressing a button or of getting up, searching through a large library of discs, turning on the player, inserting the disc, selecting the source, and then finally sitting back down to enjoy the movie, the former starts winning all the time, the fact the latter media may have many desirable titles available notwithstanding. Yes, it's true the latter media may have an additional lure in terms of superior quality, but the question is, "How superior?" As long as the quality of the former media is more than acceptable, then I, for one, am willing to take a small hit in PQ.


That's what separates you from me. What's the point in going Blu-Ray at all if you're willing to take a hit in PQ? Sounds like a giant step backwards to me. Going the HTPC route with a remote server eliminates having to get up to swap discs or anything else other than taking a leak or grabbing a snack. You have an entire library of movies, music, photos and any other digital media you can think of available on a single device. I use my HTPC for recording OTA HD programming as well as watching Blu-Ray movies and standard DVDs, along with movies and TV shows I've downloaded from bittorrent sites. I can also surf the web and do anything else PC related without having to get out of my chair. Did I also mention I can play PC games on my 60" HDTV without having to change hardware?



> I'm definitely not interested in a Windows based solution. A Linux based HTPC is a possibility. I'm thinking about fiddling with the theater system again to get a PC working acceptably there.


There are definitely Linux solutions out there for HTPCs, although I'm not sure if there's one for playing back BD discs. You might want to reconsider the Windows situation now that Win 7 with Media Center is available.



jcthorne said:


> Yea, I did the HTPC thing for years. IN the whole time we had it I can count the number of shows my wife watched from the HTPC on one hand. She NEVER used music or photos. Once in a while she would ask me to do it as she knew what was there, just far too much trouble to use. I also had a Series 1 for part of that time and then Sat and then several Cableco DVRs.
> 
> Then we got the TivoHD. As pyTivo grew up and added capability, the Tivo took over more and more. The HTPC is gone along with the rediculous power usage. The wife USES the Tivo. Watches flics and shows both on the tivo and from the server. Listens to music from our 8300 Album library all the time and is always showing friends slide shows of our latest trip or party or whatever. Yes the HTPC can for now achieve a bit better PQ on some monitors, but the TivoHD gets USED. ALOT. And did I mention its very green in power usage compared to a HTPC?


My evolution is quite the opposite of yours. I've been using Tivos since they were first introduced and have also tried ReplayTVs, Ultimate TVs, and almost every Tivo version since the S1 SA model. I have two S3's in conjunction with my HTPC and I use the HTPC for the majority of my TV viewing. When the new CableCARD tuners become available, I'll be using the HTPC for 100% of my recording and playback.

HTPCs are not going to be high on the WAF list. Personally, I never use music or photos on either my HTPC or my Tivos. My wife has no clue how to use anything technical (she still yells at me to fix the upstairs TV when the inputs get switched) so using an HTPC vs. a Tivo is a moot point as far as she is concerned since I do all of the driving with the remote.

If power usage is a major concern then you might want to check out the latest Dell Inspiron Zino HD. It's a mini-iTx design and only has a 75-watt PSU with the 4330 graphics card upgrade (the stock PSU is only 45-watts, IIRC). I just bought one to use a remote terminal to stream Blu-Rays from my server to my son's HDTV. It uses the new AMD low-power CPUs and has been shown to be more robust than the Atom-based PCs, especially with the 4330 graphics upgrade.

One final note - streaming BD rips from my unRAID server, I can retain the DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD soundtracks that were on the original BD discs. I'm fairly certain that whatever method you use to transfer BD rips to a Tivo will result in the loss of these soundtracks. In fact, I'm pretty sure you'll be limited to only Dolby Digital 5.1.


----------



## robpdotcom (Jun 8, 2005)

I was having trouble with a VC-1 Blu Ray. I could rip it, convert it, and transfer it to my TiVo, but it was losing frames. I was using all sorts of programs - AnyDVD, TsmuxeR, BD_Rebuilder - but no matter which method I used, it had the same problem. Other than the lost frames, everything was fine - the PQ was great and the AC-3 core was extracted.

Eventually, I found that MakeMKV would do everything in one step - rip it, convert it to MKV, and pull the AC-3 core from the disc and in less than an hour. Then just use PyTivo to transfer it.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

robpdotcom said:


> I was having trouble with a VC-1 Blu Ray. I could rip it, convert it, and transfer it to my TiVo, but it was losing frames. I was using all sorts of programs - AnyDVD, TsmuxeR, BD_Rebuilder - but no matter which method I used, it had the same problem. Other than the lost frames, everything was fine - the PQ was great and the AC-3 core was extracted.
> 
> Eventually, I found that MakeMKV would do everything in one step - rip it, convert it to MKV, and pull the AC-3 core from the disc and in less than an hour. Then just use PyTivo to transfer it.


pyTivo doesn't transfer MKV natively, so there is transcoding involved. If you could get it into an mp4 container with h264 & AC3, you could push faster than real-time playback...


----------



## robpdotcom (Jun 8, 2005)

Yeah, the transfer took ages. I can convert it mpeg2 (haven't done it yet, but I know I can), but I don't know of any good programs to convert to mp4. Any suggestions?

And will it really push faster than real time? None of the HD programs I transfer from TiVo will do that.


----------



## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

robpdotcom said:


> Yeah, the transfer took ages. I can convert it mpeg2 (haven't done it yet, but I know I can), but I don't know of any good programs to convert to mp4. Any suggestions?
> 
> And will it really push faster than real time? None of the HD programs I transfer from TiVo will do that.


I've been working strictly with h264 video with AC3 and/or DTS audio mkv files, and wrote a Windows batch file that extracts suitable tracks using mkvextract.exe, "normalizes" the audio (if needed) using eac3to.exe, then muxes the tracks into an mp4 container using mp4creator.exe. Note my last post though if you're interested in it - there may be a revision coming soon! I haven't worked with any VC1 encoded files (other than playing them on my PC) to know of any good converters.

According to this, you can pyTivo PUSH or stream using Stream Baby, Stream! VC1 without transcoding, _if_ the audio is 2 channels. I could probably live with that if I were using my TV speakers, but since I'm attached to a receiver I opt for 5.1 (or better) surround if possible. But yes, I pushed a 13.9 GB, 2 hour 7 minute HD movie in about one hour's time. The same file using TiVo Desktop took 10 hours 20 minutes, and ended up with no audio track!


----------



## robpdotcom (Jun 8, 2005)

I tried using MeGUI to change from VC-1 to mp4. The results were not good - after letting it run over night, it had completed about 25&#37; and had a projected file size of &#8776; 124gb from a 28gb file.  That's was also the first time I had ever used MeGUI, so I'm sure the settings were not optimal.

And I'm with you on the audio. No point in having a 7.1 system if you get stereo sound.

What are the advantages of using mp4 over mp2?


----------

