# Mad Men | "The Other Woman" | Season 5 Ep 11 | 5-27-12 | Potential *Spoilers*



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

Peggy is gone? Say it ain't so!

Actually, I thought the ending was very touching. Nice moment between Ham and Moss with him kissing her hand. It's hard to believe Peggy will be out of the series, although it usually works that way - those in Don Draper's life have prominence in the series, and those who are not, who are peripheral, tend to fade.

In general, I think this episode was all about the girls; Joan, Peggy and even Megan, even though all the boys all worked on winning the Jaguar account. I think you could tell that by the way the pitch that Draper makes is interspersed with Joan's very personal sacrifice.

And the show continues to show it's power by illustrating through Joan the extent to which women have had to compromise themselves to assure their children have all of the resources to grow up and have a decent life. Almost an ultimate compromise, in my view.

Peggy leaves, Joan saves (Jaguar), Megan fails could be the storyline....


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Peggy should have scratched Don's eyeballs out when he threw the money in her face.

Megan can just go away as far as I'm concerned.

I'm really surprised Roger was ok with Joan whoring herself out.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Powerful episode. Can't believe Peggy quit, but I'm sure she'll still play a significant role in the series. Did you see Don's reaction when Peggy told him where she was going? This will bring the rivalry with Teddy Chaough to the forefront.

I loved the way Pete pitched the idea to Joan. He made it sound as if he weren't even making her the offer, all the while making her the offer. Such a weasel. Can't believe Joan went through with it, but at the same time, this will make her much more of a prominent player in the show, and that's definitely a good thing.

Good to see Freddy Rumsen again. I wonder if he's going to make good on his comment to apply at SDCP if Peggy leaves.

Pete wants to get an apartment in the city and Trudy says no way. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I have a feeling Lane's embezzling will soon come to light and Joan will end up really running the company. It's a good thing she's got her partnership. Was that even possible in those days?


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Is Elizabeth Moss really leaving the series? Unless I missed some casting rumors, Peggy Olson quitting SCDP doesn't have to mean she is off the series. I mean, if it DID, wouldn't they wait until the season finale?


Nice how Pete never gave a second thought to whoring out Joan. We've known he is a total tool, but this is pretty bad.


----------



## kar74 (Feb 13, 2005)

cheesesteak said:


> Peggy should have scratched Don's eyeballs out when he threw the money in her face.
> 
> Megan can just go away as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> I'm really surprised Roger was ok with Joan whoring herself out.


I thought Roger wasn't okay with Joan whoring herself out? I am really surprised she went through with it. I suppose she is financially just looking out for her and her child post divorce. I'm glad she has a small piece of the company now. She deserves it.

And I am very proud of Peggy not backing down with Don wanting to keep her. I will miss her working for SCDP, but she was being squashed by the men there, especially Don and Ginsberg.

Man, I don't know that I've hated a character more than Pete Campbell. He's such a pretentious d-bag.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

kar74 said:


> I thought Roger wasn't okay with Joan whoring herself out? I am really surprised she went through with it. I suppose she is financially just looking out for her and her child post divorce. I'm glad she has a small piece of the company now. She deserves it.


I think her impending divorce really plays a big role in this. She could have plenty of money from Roger if she wanted it. She could have kept Greg around if she wanted to. But she saw this as a chance to better her financial situation without having to rely on the men in her life, and despite the moral implications, she felt it was worth it.


kar74 said:


> And I am very proud of Peggy not backing down with Don wanting to keep her. I will miss her working for SCDP, but she was being squashed by the men there, especially Don and Ginsberg.


But isn't she going to be "squashed" by the men in whatever firm she goes to? This is 1966, after all. These men aren't going to treat her as an equal, regardless of her title or talent.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

kar74 said:


> Man, I don't know that I've hated a character more than Pete Campbell. He's such a pretentious d-bag.


+1001


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> This is 1966, after all.


I believe we've gone into January 1967, actually. Not that it matters to your point.

Looking solely at inflation, Peggy's $19,000 salary would be the equivalent of about $120,000 today. Not bad if you can get it.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Did Lane suggest the partnership thing to Joan just so he wouldn't have to come up with cash right away? Still it was probably a better deal for her too. I really hope they find a way to get Lane out of this.


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

Terrific episode in so many ways yet disturbing in so many ways.

 Pete as pimp; he sinks to new lows every time we turn around.

 Lane framing "the proposition" to Joan so it would help *him*.

 Roger opposing it initially but obviously caving during the partners' vote. 
(Happy that Don walked out in disgust)

 Maybe Joan got what she wanted... advancement and money but she left
her respect on the bargaining table. The other partners know what the deal was and how the whole scenario played out... how will she garner any respect?

 Noooooo... Peggy can't be gone! I was yelling at the screen the
whole time.(EM played that scene to perfection, as did JH)

It's curious that the dynamic between Don and Joan seems to be telegraphed so regularly now. Not that I don't enjoy it ... just curious.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

I'm afraid Dr. Rapist will get some of Joan's SCDP money in the divorce settlement. Could she end up having to pay him alimony? 

This is what happens when you raise your daughters to be admired.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Did Lane suggest the partnership thing to Joan just so he wouldn't have to come up with cash right away? Still it was probably a better deal for her too. I really hope they find a way to get Lane out of this.


I don't think it was to prevent him having to come up with cash. I think it was because they wanted him to go get an extension on the credit line in order to pay her, and since he's already maxed out the credit line, he wanted to figure out another way so the shortage of cash and credit wouldn't be brought to light. As cheesesteak mentioned above, it could be that Lane's suggestion of her becoming a partner actually leads to his undoing, because I wouldn't be surprised if Joan demands to see the books now that she's a partner, and she'll figure out what Lane's been doing.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

I'm surprised that Joan hasn't figured out Lane's embezzlement yet, since we've seen before that she balances the books.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I've got to side with Don on the Meagan going to Philly for 6 weeks or whatever. She wasn't talking about this when they got married, then she didn't tell him when she auditioned what it would entail. They're newlyweds, and leaving a guy like Don for that long could only bring trouble. Isn't there some kind of acting she could do that's only in NY?


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I could relate to Peggy in this episode. I've been there before where I felt like I wasn't getting the recognition I deserved and I left. I loved her smile right as she was getting on the elevator. I know Don is the central character, but the show has been very much about Peggy's journey and hopefully we'll keep following her. 

What a choice for Joan and she must have been crushed to have Don show up too late to stop her. 

As for Megan, I think it was unfair of her to fly off the handle about Boston. Living apart from your spouse for two months is worthy of discussion. She acted like she'd already told Don and he should know. Was she being manipulative, or had she told him and he forgot?


----------



## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

They're really slamming us over the head with the Lane stuff... Can't that just blow up already?

Pete keeps getting worse. I hope he jumps into the path of a moving train soon.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

ElJay said:


> They're really slamming us over the head with the Lane stuff... Can't that just blow up already?
> 
> Pete keeps getting worse. I hope he jumps into the path of a moving train soon.


Pete's gun is going to play a part in Lane's or Pete's blow-up!


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Zevida said:


> As for Megan, I think it was unfair of her to fly off the handle about Boston. Living apart from your spouse for two months is worthy of discussion. She acted like she'd already told Don and he should know.


This. How is Don supposed to know that a New York theater production is going to rehearse and preview in Boston for 3 months? Sounds highly unusual.


----------



## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Marco said:


> This. How is Don supposed to know that a New York theater production is going to rehearse and preview in Boston for 3 months? Sounds highly unusual.


He should have watched "Smash"


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

When Peggy was waiting for the elevator and then it dinged, did anyone else have the thought of the empty elevator shaft from a couple episodes ago and that perhaps Peggy would step in without really looking? That thought only lasted for half a second as I watched, but I wonder if anyone else thought the same.


----------



## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> When Peggy was waiting for the elevator and then it dinged, did anyone else have the thought of the empty elevator shaft from a couple episodes ago and that perhaps Peggy would step in without really looking? That thought only lasted for half a second as I watched, but I wonder if anyone else thought the same.


<Raises hand>


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> It's a good thing she's got her partnership. Was that even possible in those days?


Wasn't Bert's sister one of the partners at the old Sterling Cooper?

The series has always contrasted Joan and Peggy, this episode is another example. Peggy doesn't compromise to get ahead the same way Joan does.


----------



## dbranco (Nov 20, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> When Peggy was waiting for the elevator and then it dinged, did anyone else have the thought of the empty elevator shaft from a couple episodes ago and that perhaps Peggy would step in without really looking? That thought only lasted for half a second as I watched, but I wonder if anyone else thought the same.


Yup, me too!


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

When Peggy got on that elevator, I literally yelled at the TV "You go, girl!" I was so proud of her!

And I agree that the episode was very largely about how two different women chose to advance their careers. Peggy did not compromise herself, Joan did. I think Joan felt she had no other choice - until Don showed up at her apartment, and by then it was too late.


----------



## NJ_HB (Mar 21, 2007)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think her impending divorce really plays a big role in this. She could have plenty of money from Roger if she wanted it. She could have kept Greg around if she wanted to. But she saw this as a chance to better her financial situation without having to rely on the men in her life, and despite the moral implications, she felt it was worth it.
> 
> But isn't she going to be "squashed" by the men in whatever firm she goes to? This is 1966, after all. These men aren't going to treat her as an equal, regardless of her title or talent.


I think you are right that they are not going to treat her as equal and Don knows it. If you think he is a DICK (Whitman) now, wait until she has to come crawling back to him.


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> When Peggy was waiting for the elevator and then it dinged, did anyone else have the thought of the empty elevator shaft from a couple episodes ago and that perhaps Peggy would step in without really looking? That thought only lasted for half a second as I watched, but I wonder if anyone else thought the same.


Yep.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Lane can't get a personal loan?


----------



## SeanC (Dec 30, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Did Lane suggest the partnership thing to Joan just so he wouldn't have to come up with cash right away? Still it was probably a better deal for her too. I really hope they find a way to get Lane out of this.


I believe that is exactly what he is doing, and I concur as well, I really hope he can extricate himself before the hammer falls, but I doubt it.

Can someone go over the exact situation Lane is in?

As best I understand it:

He owed taxes back in the UK of some thousands, I'm vaguely thinking 7000.
He hired someone to address his legal and financial issues in the UK.
He needed the cash which he did not have so he expanded SCDP's line of credit by 50k.
He then announced to the partners that SCDP was 50k in the black and they should do Christmas bonuses.
The partners agree to the Christmas bonuses.
Some plot point stopped the partners from taking the Christmas bonuses.
Lane forged Don's? signature on a check to himself for some amount of money.
Lane spoke with the guy in the UK, guy says problem solved oh and hey I need to get paid, Lane says great and hangs up on him.
Because Lane had just extended their credit and used Jaguar to do it he knew he wouldn't be able to do it again, so he was desperate that Joan not agree to take a cash payout.

Does that about sum it up accurately?

Can someone explain the legal implications of what Lane has done? It's embezzeling I think, but to what level? Is he in slap on the wrist range (I don't think he is)? Or is he in many years in prison range?

If anyone else glances at the books will they easily be able to see what he has done?


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

What a smarmy little ***** Pete is. The look Lane gave Pete in the partner's meeting, I was sure he was going to pop him again. He should have.

The pitch Don made to Jaguar about the young boy seeing an E-Type him and wanting one for the rest of his life hit directly at me. . Almost as much as the Carousel.

The scene with Peggy quitting was just superbly done. I am guessing any shot of Peggy staying was when Don told her Joan was made partner. Ouch. Good on Peggy for turning down Don's pitch to stay at SCDP.

For a millisecond I thought of Peggy falling down the elevator, but I think the "bad" one was closest to the office door, and she got in the one to its left.


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

SeanC said:


> I believe that is exactly what he is doing, and I concur as well, I really hope he can extricate himself before the hammer falls, but I doubt it.
> 
> Can someone go over the exact situation Lane is in?
> 
> ...


Your summation is pretty accurate. Lane took the loan out without anyone else's knowledge and figured the bonus scheme would get him what he needed. Little did he know that first, the partners wanted to wait to distribute the bonuses (he needed the money immediately to avoid legal issues in the UK) and later the partners deferred their bonuses completely. He had already forged the check and paid off his UK debts. Then, when the partners suggested using the 50K to pay off Joan, he created the partnership option to protect himself (while making it seem as if he was acting in Joan's best interest).

He embezzled. Quite a bit of money. It was $7,500. It would be worth over $50,000 in 2012 money. I would say if he is caught and the firm chose to press charges, he would be in for considerable jail time.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

SeanC said:


> I believe that is exactly what he is doing, and I concur as well, I really hope he can extricate himself before the hammer falls, but I doubt it.
> 
> Can someone go over the exact situation Lane is in?
> 
> ...


Yes.



SeanC said:


> Can someone explain the legal implications of what Lane has done? It's embezzeling I think, but to what level? Is he in slap on the wrist range (I don't think he is)? Or is he in many years in prison range?
> 
> If anyone else glances at the books will they easily be able to see what he has done?


I wouldn't think he'd get jail, I think it would be handled internally. Perhaps he'll lose his partnership? The thing is, it's just small potatoes, and I a) dunno why his money situation is so tight to not get a personal loan as cheesesteak suggests, or b) why he just couldn't ask for an advance on his draw to cover. Sterling, Cooper and Draper all have plenty of dough.


----------



## grant33 (Jun 11, 2003)

The twist that Don went to Joan's apartment after she had already slept with Herb from Jaguar was brilliantly done. I didn't see that coming. I was already sad that Joan had gone through with it and that made it sadder, which somehow for the show made that much better. Definitely an interesting episode for the women in the show. Joan compromises herself to get ahead. Peggy doesn't and still gets ahead. Guess we'll see where Megan is willing to go. There were several sexist/racist/anti-gay comments and actions in this episode that I was just trying to imagine if they happened today.


----------



## DougF (Mar 18, 2003)

Best episode of the season, IMO.


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

This wasn't the finale, was it? 

Fantastic episode!! 
Love, love, love Peggy! Felt terrible for Joan, and was very surprised that she went on with it! and was very confused by Megan!

Whew! 

Oh, and add me to the Pete has moved well beyond his usual Dooshieness. Oh my goodness! How could he? and so flippantly? Blargh!!!


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't blame Don for going into "Woman, is you crazy?" mode when Megan casually said she'd be in Boston for seven weeks. What kind of knucklehead just announces that like it's nothing?

Lane kicked Pete's butt in their fight but I'm backing Pete if Lane's embezzlement comes to light.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

SeanC said:


> Some plot point stopped the partners from taking the Christmas bonuses.


Airline union strike, wasn't it?



> Can someone explain the legal implications of what Lane has done? It's embezzeling I think, but to what level? Is he in slap on the wrist range (I don't think he is)? Or is he in many years in prison range?


He also forged a signature and may have committed fraud with the bank in the way he presented his request for an extension of the line of credit. I would think that he is beyond the slap on the wrist range.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jsmeeker said:


> He should have watched "Smash"


My first thought was, I wouldn't know what this was all about if I hadn't watched Smash. 



grant33 said:


> Joan compromises herself to get ahead. Peggy doesn't and still gets ahead. Guess we'll see where Megan is willing to go.


I'd say the main difference is the unique talent that Peggy has. Joan is smart and efficient, but people like new Jewish guy (sorry, can't remember his name), Peggy and Don (in the past) who can come up with brilliant stuff like the Jaguar line, are just worth a lot more.

Was there a hint that maybe Megan was asked to do something at the audition? If so, I guess she didn't.



TAsunder said:


> He also forged a signature and may have committed fraud with the bank in the way he presented his request for an extension of the line of credit. I would think that he is beyond the slap on the wrist range.


They would still have the option of covering it up to protect him, but how to get Campbell to go along with that.....I say beat him to a pulp.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I'd say the main difference is the unique talent that Peggy has. Joan is smart and efficient, but people like new Jewish guy (sorry, can't remember his name), Peggy and Don (in the past) who can come up with brilliant stuff like the Jaguar line, are just worth a lot more.


Neither peggy nor don came up with the Jaguar line... it was Ginsberg. This season, they have both been outclassed by Ginsberg in terms of the campaign ideas. Don is great at presenting, however, and is still fairly essential. Peggy is mediocre at pitching, and that's being generous.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Question about Lane: Why do they need him?

Apparently they needed him as a financial officer, to get the new agency up and running (especially since he apparently has skills in banking, finance, and controlling costs... we all know what a disaster the place would be if Roger "Need to keep less cash in my wallet" Sterling was running the joint), but if he's embezzling, I can easily see them forcing him out and replacing him with another financial officer.


----------



## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

Don seems to be getting accolades for apparently walking out in disgust when pimping Joan is introduced, and then again for going to her apartment to tell her nothing's that important, not even the Jaguar account, so don't do it.

I'm not so sure. He should have known full well that everyone else would vote to approach Joan with the proposition. Walking out just gives him plausible deniability.

Then because of the urgency of getting Herb on board before the presentation to Jaguar, Don would have known that Joan had already met with Herb. Again, plausible deniability.

Remember it was Don who made the big showing of taking off his jacket and announcing to the entire company that for the next few weeks everyone was going to be working through the holidays and weekends to get the Jaguar account because that's what would take the firm to the next level. It's not like he thinks the Jaguar account is not all that important.

So while I feel Pete is a despicable low-life, the difference between him and Don is just the mastery of manipulation.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

minimeh said:


> Don seems to be getting accolades for apparently walking out in disgust when pimping Joan is introduced, and then again for going to her apartment to tell her nothing's that important, not even the Jaguar account, so don't do it.
> 
> I'm not so sure. He should have known full well that everyone else would vote to approach Joan with the proposition. Walking out just gives him plausible deniability.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I shouldn't because I don't think very highly of Don usually but this... I don't think he wanted or condoned her doing that. I think he meant it when he told her it wasn't worth it.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> I disagree. I shouldn't because I don't think very highly of Don usually but this... I don't think he wanted or condoned her doing that. I think he meant it when he told her it wasn't worth it.


I agree. We saw when Joan was served that Don actually respects and has a good amount of affection for Joan. I think he honestly didn't want her to do it.

(And then makes up for this by completely missing the boat on Peggy)


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

kaszeta said:


> I agree. We saw when Joan was served that Don actually respects and has a good amount of affection for Joan. I think he honestly didn't want her to do it.
> 
> (And then makes up for this by completely missing the boat on Peggy)


Plus, Dick Whitman has good reason for not wanting a woman he cares about to prostitute herself.


----------



## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

kaszeta said:


> We saw when Joan was served that Don actually respects and has a good amount of affection for Joan. I think he honestly didn't want her to do it.


I agree that he actually respects and is fond of Joan.

In the previous episode, he did leave her at the bar to pursue a potential pickup of the guy in the bar. She's no chaste prude and Don knows it. So in his calculation it wouldn't be of any lasting or great harm if Joan met with Herb while the benefits to the firm could hardly be greater.

On the other hand, he knows that she has been given partner for the act. He would recognize the importance of keeping his relationship strong with Joan and even getting a leg up on the other partners to gain more leverage in the firm.


----------



## trainman (Jan 29, 2001)

TAsunder said:


> Airline union strike, wasn't it?


Yes -- more specifically, Mohawk's machinists were on strike, and the airline opted to pull their advertising even though they continued to operate flights.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

TAsunder said:


> He also forged a signature and may have committed fraud with the bank in the way he presented his request for an extension of the line of credit. I would think that he is beyond the slap on the wrist range.


He's also exposed to civil liability for breach of fiduciary duty, as partner, to the firm. He probably increased that liability this week by advising Joan to ask for 5%, rather than $50,000 cash, thus impairing the firm's interests to the benefit of Mrs. Harris's.


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm surprised that anyone thought Peggy might be greeted with an elevator shaft. That was very carefully placed in the previous scene as a representation of the Don and Megan relationship - he wanted to follow her, but could not, and the distance between them was not vast. It never even dawned on me here because it did not make sense in the context of the scene.

I would also be surprised if they had Peggy fail and/or have to come "crawling back" to Don. Although we've seen a few stumbles this season, they did well to remind us of her success with the Lady Godiva idea off the top of her head. She'd also basically been running all of creative for all clients while the rest of them worked on Jaguar. She does a good job of coming up with good ideas but also being gracious when other ideas are better than hers - she freely admits when Ginsberg has a better idea. I think she'll be successful wherever she goes.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Zevida said:


> I'm surprised that anyone thought Peggy might be greeted with an elevator shaft. That was very carefully placed in the previous scene as a representation of the Don and Megan relationship - he wanted to follow her, but could not, and the distance between them was not vast. It never even dawned on me here because it did not make sense in the context of the scene.


I think I thought of it because all season I've been reading about the foreshadowing of someone meeting their demise at the end of this season, and then after the episode with the malfunctioning elevator, people speculated that maybe it would be the faulty elevator that causes the anticipated death. I don't think it would have made sense at all for Peggy to die at this point, but just the fact that it was the elevator, plus the way the shot was framed so you heard the bell right but couldn't see the doors, it gave me that feeling.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

I am certain that the scene with the empty elevator was being referenced here, but I didn't think it would appear literally. More like a recurrence of the theme.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I too thought the elevator shaft was open. The way the scene looked, she was looking back, not looking in the elevator at all, I was expecting her to take a step and fall.

I believe the scene where Don almost stepped in the open shaft was probably just a metaphor for what was going on. However it's hard to stop thinking about it.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Marco said:


> He's also exposed to civil liability for breach of fiduciary duty, as partner, to the firm. He probably increased that liability this week by advising Joan to ask for 5%, rather than $50,000 cash, thus impairing the firm's interests to the benefit of Mrs. Harris's.


Mrs. Harris's what?


----------



## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

Mr. Soze said:


> Mrs. Harris's what?


Mrs. Harris's interests of course.


----------



## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

If the empty elevator shaft was a hint of something to come, it could very well be Lane. That would tidy up the whole "how will he get caught/punished?" quandary in short order. He drops, they figured out the loss of a the money after but no one to go after for it and it's all over.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

Dropping someone down an elevator shaft seems so beneath this show. I can't see them doing it.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

DougF said:


> Best episode of the season, IMO.


This...masterfully written then executed by all the actors/actresses. One of the best in the series' entire run, if you ask me...


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I'm sure the elevator shaft is a metaphor, but Chekov's Gun comes to mind. I could imagine elevators back them not being anywhere near as reliable as they are today. They showed us Don almost falling in, it could happen again but the person who steps in could be not so lucky.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> ...Lane kicked Pete's butt in their fight but I'm backing Pete if Lane's embezzlement comes to light.


Not me....how is what Lane did WORSE than what Pete did with Joan?!


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

robojerk said:


> I too thought the elevator shaft was open. The way the scene looked, she was looking back, not looking in the elevator at all, I was expecting her to take a step and fall....


No way...if you watch carefully, you can see the light from the elevator car brighten Peggy's face when the doors open (without actually seeing the elevator doors)....


----------



## 59er (Mar 27, 2008)

After the female ad exec (from Y&R I think) recently killed by an elevator in NYC, this feels off-limits to me. It would be too awful, even if Weiner had originally planned it.


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

59er said:


> After the female ad exec (from Y&R I think) recently killed by an elevator in NYC, this feels off-limits to me. It would be too awful, even if Weiner had originally planned it.


Yup - it was Y&R.

Horrible.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

SoBelle0 said:


> This wasn't the finale, was it?
> 
> Fantastic episode!!
> Love, love, love Peggy! Felt terrible for Joan, and was very surprised that she went on with it! and was very confused by Megan!
> ...


No, it was not the finale. There is at least one more episode on June 3, and according to epguides.com, one scheduled for June 10th as well. That would be the season finale, I think.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

mm2margaret said:


> No, it was not the finale. There is at least one more episode on June 3, and according to epguides.com, one scheduled for June 10th as well. That would be the season finale, I think.


Yup this was episode 11 and there are always 13 episodes per season so the June 10th is the finale.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

cmontyburns said:


> Dropping someone down an elevator shaft seems so beneath this show. I can't see them doing it.


Do we have to discuss the lawnmower again?


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

kaszeta said:


> Do we have to discuss the lawnmower again?


I knew someone would bring that up. Not the same thing. The lawnmower was comedy. Mad Men has always had a strong comedic streak and does not shy away from broad comic moments (Lane's and Pete's fistfight this season being a recent example). Dropping Lane or anyone else down an empty elevator shaft would not be comedy, it would be be melodrama, and a particularly lazy type of it to boot. Mad Men almost always is better than that.


----------



## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

kaszeta said:


> Do we have to discuss the lawnmower again?


Speaking of that, my favorite bloggers made a great comparison between the lawnmower scene and Joan's decision.

http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/2012/05/mad-men-the-other-woman.html



> When it comes to rating the occasionally shocking turns of events in the world of Mad Men, we propose the Lawnmower system. Its very simple. Allow us to demonstrate.
> 
> Guy walks into an advertising agency and gets his foot unexpectedly amputated? Thats a FIVE out of FIVE Lawnmowers.
> 
> ...


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

How big a step is it, really, from being the boss's mistress and getting getting expensive gifts like furs (i.e. the one Don sold to Roger) and sleeping with a client to get a piece of the company?


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

vman41 said:


> How big a step is it, really, from being the boss's mistress and getting getting expensive gifts like furs (i.e. the one Don sold to Roger) and sleeping with a client to get a piece of the company?


Is this a serious question?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

vman41 said:


> How big a step is it, really, from being the boss's mistress and getting getting expensive gifts like furs (i.e. the one Don sold to Roger) and sleeping with a client to get a piece of the company?





nyny523 said:


> Is this a serious question?


FOR REAL! 
It's such a step that it's not even on the same staircase. 
She obviously had feelings for Roger or at the very least was attracted to him in the beginning when they started having sex. His being rich and giving her gifts was a bonus. I'm willing to bet that even if he didn't lavish her with gifts she would have continued. I'm also willing to bet, had he left his wife for her instead of Jane, they'd be married right now. JMHO
This guy was old, fat and just gross. There was no way she enjoyed a second of that and I guarantee it'll haunt her. I cannot even imagine it. <shudder>


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

We don't know what Joan's motivations were when she first started sleeping with Roger. We do know it was her ambition to marry a doctor that landed her with Greg.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> FOR REAL!
> It's such a step that it's not even on the same staircase.
> She obviously had feelings for Roger or at the very least was attracted to him in the beginning when they started having sex. His being rich and giving her gifts was a bonus. I'm willing to bet that even if he didn't lavish her with gifts she would have continued. I'm also willing to bet, had he left his wife for her instead of Jane, they'd be married right now. JMHO
> This guy was old, fat and just gross. There was no way she enjoyed a second of that and I guarantee it'll haunt her. I cannot even imagine it. <shudder>


"Let's see 'em." Ugh. The phrase "nothing personal, strictly business" came to mind. Joan+Roger was a whole other ballgame, lighthearted, fun and romantic for Joan, even though it was adulterous for Roger. They had feelings for each other, which is why Roger's behavior in this episode was as bad as, or worse IMO than Pete's.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

I just watched this last night. Did anyone else notice that in Peggy's final scene she as wearing a dress much more feminine and pretty than she normally does? Also when the elevator opened she was bathed in light from it.

I think they showed her improved feelings for the future in her clothes and how she exited. Things are looking up for her.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

vman41 said:


> How big a step is it, really, from being the boss's mistress and getting getting expensive gifts like furs (i.e. the one Don sold to Roger) and sleeping with a client to get a piece of the company?


I've always thought Joan to be a "use what she has to get what she wants" type of woman. I felt kind of bad for her but didn't think it much of a surprise that she slept with the exec. Actually, I think I felt bad for her because what she did was known by all the partners and wasn't a secret, not because of the deed itself. She didn't give back the emerald either.


----------



## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

IIRC, on Peggy's first day at work, Joan wasn't very subtle about encouraging Peggy to use her assets to get ahead at Sterling Cooper. I think it was something about showing off her pretty little ankles. Extrapolating that "use-what-God-gave-you" attitude forward, and adding in the facts that Joan needs a war chest to battle Greg in a divorce, Joan is a single mother with financial needs, and the fact that Joan must be dying to get her mother off her back and the hell out of her apartment, I understand why Joan agreed to go to bed with creepy fat Jaguar guy - it was a one-time sacrifice that she believed would solve a lot of her problems. (albeit at the expense of her self-respect)

Excellent episode. We're finally getting the payoff from earlier episodes. And, of course, any episode with Freddy Rumsen is necessarily a good episode in my book. :up:


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

TiVo'Brien said:


> *IIRC, on Peggy's first day at work, Joan wasn't very subtle about encouraging Peggy to use her assets to get ahead at Sterling Cooper. I think it was something about showing off her pretty little ankles. Extrapolating that "use-what-God-gave-you" attitude forward*, and adding in the facts that Joan needs a war chest to battle Greg in a divorce, Joan is a single mother with financial needs, and the fact that Joan must be dying to get her mother off her back and the hell out of her apartment, I understand why Joan agreed to go to bed with creepy fat Jaguar guy - it was a one-time sacrifice that she believed would solve a lot of her problems. (albeit at the expense of her self-respect)
> 
> Excellent episode. We're finally getting the payoff from earlier episodes. And, of course, any episode with Freddy Rumsen is necessarily a good episode in my book. :up:


I'm a girl and I'm all for using what God gave you BUT there's a massive difference in that and whoring yourself out, which is exactly the line she crossed here. I feel bad that she felt she had to do it.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Joan used to be much respected by everyone in the office. I think that will change now. The partners have treated her like a prostitute and I think they will have very little respect for her now. I think Roger and Don are going to be the ones whose attitudes toward her will be most changed. They are going to be hurt by her actions and will hurt her in return.

The news of how she got her partnership will leak out and the secretaries will no longer treat her with any respect. 

Joan will be financially secure and hate herself. 

Oh, and I predict Joan will be asked to do the same thing or something very close to it again in the future!


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Mr. Soze said:


> a) dunno why his money situation is so tight to not get a personal loan as cheesesteak suggests,


Didn't he answer this while encouraging Joan? That when he came to the company he didn't ask for what he needed. Or am I misremembering?



stellie93 said:


> Was there a hint that maybe Megan was asked to do something at the audition? If so, I guess she didn't.


Yes,I was definitely getting a "casting couch" vibe.

It seemed to me that Megan genuinely believed Don understood being an actress meant time away from home.



nyny523 said:


> Is this a serious question?


:up:

The look on her face in this episode was just like the rape scene. Broke my heart.


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

jakerock said:


> I just watched this last night. Did anyone else notice that in Peggy's final scene she as wearing a dress much more feminine and pretty than she normally does? * Also when the elevator opened she was bathed in light from it.*
> 
> I think they showed her improved feelings for the future in her clothes and how she exited. Things are looking up for her.


Yes, already mentioned in post #59.....


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

This episode has stayed with me since I first watched it, for so many reasons -- it was, if nothing else, electric drama, and much of it was so well done. But mostly it's been because I've been torn about what it did to Joan. Was the development earned? Would Joan really have done this? Etc. Ultimately, I think I've concluded that the show really betrayed her character, and I wish they hadn't done this. Perhaps the development will be redeemed in my mind by whatever comes next. But this would be a pretty big bell to unring.

As usually happens, Time's James Poniewozik discusses this much more eruditely than I could. Give his essay on this episode a read -- it's really thoughtful.

http://entertainment.time.com/2012/05/30/mad-men-character-study-cleopatra-joan


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

I have to speak up at least a bit for Roger. At the meeting, when Pete describes his offer to Joan, Roger looks surprised and says something like "and she went along with it?". I got the vibe that he was disappointed by her supposed willingness (Pete was lying about that) and afterwards was essentially saying "if that's what she wants". All he had to go on was Pete's report. Roger didn't confront her and ask her himself but that's understandable if he believed Pete.


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

TAsunder said:


> Airline union strike, wasn't it?
> 
> He also forged a signature and may have committed fraud with the bank in the way he presented his request for an extension of the line of credit. I would think that he is beyond the slap on the wrist range.


Companies go to great lengths to sweep things like this under the rug, especially in that time. The public embarrassment of having a partner arrested for embezzlement would be terrible. Even worse for a company that depends on image like ad agencies do. He would be quietly eased out.


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> I have to speak up at least a bit for Roger. At the meeting, when Pete describes his offer to Joan, Roger looks surprised and says something like "and she went along with it?". I got the vibe that he was disappointed by her supposed willingness (Pete was lying about that) and afterwards was essentially saying "if that's what she wants". All he had to go on was Pete's report. Roger didn't confront her and ask her himself but that's understandable if he believed Pete.


Really?

You are in love with a woman. She is the mother of your child. You have been trying to be a part of her life.

There is a guy in your office whom you despise. You think he is a worm of the highest order. Yet you are going to take his word as gospel when it involves something this serious? You aren't even going to have a conversation with the woman to get her side of the story?

I call foul. This was the biggest problem I had with the entire episode. The Roger character that we know would never just go along and accept Pete's word, nor would he not approach Joan.

I'm not buyin'...


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

nyny523 said:


> Really?
> 
> You are in love with a woman. She is the mother of your child. You have been trying to be a part of her life.
> 
> ...


I have to agree. It was out of character 100%.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Bob Coxner said:


> I have to speak up at least a bit for Roger. At the meeting, when Pete describes his offer to Joan, Roger looks surprised and says something like "and she went along with it?". I got the vibe that he was disappointed by her supposed willingness (Pete was lying about that) and afterwards was essentially saying "if that's what she wants". All he had to go on was Pete's report. Roger didn't confront her and ask her himself but that's understandable if he believed Pete.


Since she did go along with it, I hope he doesn't now treat her shabbily but I suspect he will. He was eager to help with money for the baby and she declined, but was willing to have sex with a stranger. Roger used to respect and love Joan, I think that will be out the window.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

nyny523 said:


> Really?
> 
> You are in love with a woman. She is the mother of your child. You have been trying to be a part of her life.
> 
> ...


Well, maybe you're right. Certainly before this episode, I would have thought you were right. Even Joan herself, in the episode, asked Pete what Roger (I think she referred to him as Mr. Sterling) thought about it.

But maybe we've all been misreading Roger's real character after all. He's so charming and smart, I think we've all been missing that he's really just a Cad, a smart and charming one, but a cad who really doesn't much care about anyone other than himself.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

nyny523 said:


> Really?
> 
> You are in love with a woman. She is the mother of your child. You have been trying to be a part of her life.
> 
> ...


Don't you think Roger assumed what Pete was saying was false and trusted that Joan would decline any offer they gave her?


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

tiams said:


> Don't you think Roger assumed what Pete was saying was false and trusted that Joan would decline any offer they gave her?


Doesn't matter.

I cannot imagine the Roger we know NOT approaching Joan.

It makes NO sense.


----------



## nyny523 (Oct 31, 2003)

mm2margaret said:


> Well, maybe you're right. Certainly before this episode, I would have thought you were right. Even Joan herself, in the episode, asked Pete what Roger (I think she referred to him as Mr. Sterling) thought about it.
> 
> But maybe we've all been misreading Roger's real character after all. He's so charming and smart, I think we've all been missing that he's really just a Cad, a smart and charming one, but a cad who really doesn't much care about anyone other than himself.


I believe he really cares for Joan.

Thus his actions were not believable, IMO.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

nyny523 said:


> I believe he really cares for Joan.
> 
> Thus his actions were not believable, IMO.


Well, okay, I respect your opinion even though I disagree with it. I actually kind of hope you're right. Some part of me wants you to be right while another part, the realist, thinks differently. We'll see.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

nyny523 said:


> Doesn't matter.
> 
> I cannot imagine the Roger we know NOT approaching Joan.
> 
> It makes NO sense.


It makes sense to me. He knows Joan has to make her own decisions. He very recently had his attempts to be a part of her life (by helping her financially and hitting on her romantically) rebuffed in very uncertain terms. She has told him to let her be and he did.


----------



## Marco (Sep 19, 2000)

Bob Coxner said:


> Companies go to great lengths to sweep things like this under the rug, especially in that time. The public embarrassment of having a partner arrested for embezzlement would be terrible. Even worse for a company that depends on image like ad agencies do. He would be quietly eased out.


But throw in all the foreshadowing we've had of somebody dying, and I'm pretty convinced Lane will be dead by the end of the season, probably by his own hand.

Next season opens with Sterling Cooper Draper Campbell, unless they try to lure Peggy back with a partnership (but I think it'll be another season before that happens).


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Marco said:


> Next season opens with Sterling Cooper Draper Campbell, unless they try to lure Peggy back with a partnership (but I think it'll be another season before that happens).


I think the only way they'll lure Peggy back depends on how well she does without Don. If she flops and comes crawling back I can't imagine why they'd bring her back. She needs time to excel, and demonstrate that they were completely undermining her talent. After that I can see them trying to woo her back, even then I can imagine the only way they'll approach her is if they were desperate, probably bidding on some client with a ton of cash that targets woman.

I have a feeling by then end of this season we'll get some news about how well Peggy is doing and our boys will be either laughing at her expense, or upset that they lost her.


----------



## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

MadStyle recap is up!

http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/2012/05/mad-style-the-other-woman.html

Includes some insight into Megans crazy friend who was crawling on the conference room table.


----------



## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

nyny523 said:


> Really?
> 
> You are in love with a woman. She is the mother of your child. You have been trying to be a part of her life.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I disagree. Sometimes the fear of losing ones lively hood can cause irrational behavior in human beings. I believe that Roger wanted to believe what Pete said was true. Without the Jaguar account SDCP more and likely be out of business, and everyone be out of a job.

Ive been on the receiving end five years ago when, do to an impending merger, my position along with four others were going to be eliminated. Amazing how the knives came out, with the back stabbing going on as everyone was fighting for positions outside of the department. I was the only one unlucky to find another position. Having said that, the merger failed, my position was saved. Of the reaming four, two lost their jobs based on politics. I retired with full pension and medical three months ago. I was the only one who had their integrity left intact.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> Is Elizabeth Moss really leaving the series? Unless I missed some casting rumors, Peggy Olson quitting SCDP doesn't have to mean she is off the series. I mean, if it DID, wouldn't they wait until the season finale?


I was wondering if they were setting it up now so they could do a couple episodes with Peggy somewhere else; the season break; come back to a couple more episode and have Peggy rejoin SDCP. That would give her a believably long absence without keeping her out of the active SDCP plotlines for too many episodes.

Edit: Oh and the links in past show threads to the costuming must have imparted some knowledge on me. I noticed how different Peggy's purple dress was (when she gave her notice and left) from her normal little girl style. Much more grown up and womanly. Edit2: I now see jakerock mentioned that already.


stellie93 said:


> I've got to side with Don on the Meagan going to Philly for 6 weeks or whatever. She wasn't talking about this when they got married, then she didn't tell him when she auditioned what it would entail.


I think the second point is really the important one. She might have known what getting a part would entail, but there's no reason to believe that Don would have any idea how a new play/show works. (basically what Marco said)

Telling him that you're going back to your love of acting and that you're auditioning doesn't give him the information about what it means if you get the part.

Don was blindsided with that weeks away business, it's grossly unfair to be upset because you expected him to know something he'd have no reason to know.


----------



## Idearat (Nov 26, 2000)

brianric said:


> I disagree. I disagree. Sometimes the fear of losing ones lively hood can cause irrational behavior in human beings. I believe that Roger wanted to believe what Pete said was true. Without the Jaguar account SDCP more and likely be out of business, and everyone be out of a job.


I didn't think we ever were given the impression that without Jag SCDP would be out of business. Without Jag, even while they were completely out of the running, they gave all the employees bonuses. ( though was due to Lane's juggling of the books to give himself a bonus )

They wanted the car as it's a prestige thing which can bring in new business. Until the guy they took to the brothel left Jag thought they were _not_ getting the account. We didn't see them on the ropes. The only financial setback was Mohawk cutting back during the strike. Around that same time they snagged Heinz.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

cmontyburns said:


> This episode has stayed with me since I first watched it, for so many reasons -- it was, if nothing else, electric drama, and much of it was so well done. But mostly it's been because I've been torn about what it did to Joan. Was the development earned? Would Joan really have done this? Etc. Ultimately, I think I've concluded that the show really betrayed her character, and I wish they hadn't done this. Perhaps the development will be redeemed in my mind by whatever comes next. But this would be a pretty big bell to unring.
> 
> As usually happens, Time's James Poniewozik discusses this much more eruditely than I could. Give his essay on this episode a read -- it's really thoughtful.
> 
> http://entertainment.time.com/2012/05/30/mad-men-character-study-cleopatra-joan


I think we've seen in the past that despite how well Joan presents herself in a professional setting, she doesn't make good decisions with her personal life. She was raped by Greg and still agreed to marry him because being married to a doctor was a prestige thing for her. She had an affair with Roger, both before and while she was married to Greg. While it was definitely a surprise that she agreed to the partnership deal, I don't think it was completely out of character.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Jonathan_S said:


> Telling him that you're going back to your love of acting and that you're auditioning doesn't give him the information about what it means if you get the part.
> 
> Don was blindsided with that weeks away business, it's grossly unfair to be upset because you expected him to know something he'd have no reason to know.


She wasn't upset because she expected him to know something he didn't, she was upset because he put his foot down and said "no". That might have flown with Betty, but his marriage to Megan has been more of a partnership, less of a dictatorship.


----------



## mm2margaret (Dec 7, 2010)

I want to change the discussion some. I want to focus on "what happens now"?

The potential ramifications for Joan could be very negative. Who among us would expect that word of this prostitution, given that all of the partners know about it, would not get out?

In particular to some of the staff, in particular to the male staff, who haven't been portrayed as having a lick of sensitivity.

I would worry about that, and that word would get out to the other agencies, making her unemployable, at least in the Ad business in New York.

The risks would hardly seem worth the reward. That's why a number of critics are having trouble with this episode: http://www.npr.org/blogs/monkeysee/...the-buying-and-selling-of-something-beautiful


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Very interesting take on Joan's situation, this had been in the cards for a while:
http://tvline.com/2012/05/30/mad-men-season-5-episode-11-christina-hendricks-other-woman/

...and let me add how awesome TCF is, I would never have found tomandlorenzo without it!


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

mm2margaret said:


> The risks would hardly seem worth the reward.


I don't know about that. $50,000 is a lot of money for that time period. About 4 or 5 times what Joan makes in a year. And she obviously thinks 5% of the company is worth more than $50,000. I think there would be a lot more high class prostitutes today if they were paid $300,000+ per night.

Certainly there are women who would not consider such a thing for any price. But I think Joan's past has shown that she is not such a woman. If nothing else, the fact that she could marry a man who had raped her shows that she is capable of being detached about sex when she perceives the benefits are great enough.


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

Mr. Soze said:


> "Let's see 'em." Ugh. The phrase "nothing personal, strictly business" came to mind. Joan+Roger was a whole other ballgame, lighthearted, fun and romantic for Joan, even though it was adulterous for Roger. They had feelings for each other, which is why Roger's behavior in this episode was as bad as, or worse IMO than Pete's.


Oh, this... so exactly this!


----------



## DougF (Mar 18, 2003)

minimeh said:


> Don seems to be getting accolades for apparently walking out in disgust when pimping Joan is introduced, and then again for going to her apartment to tell her nothing's that important, not even the Jaguar account, so don't do it.
> 
> I'm not so sure. He should have known full well that everyone else would vote to approach Joan with the proposition. Walking out just gives him plausible deniability.
> 
> ...


Not my impression at all. Don walked out because he wanted the discussion to end right there. Staying behind and talking about it was going to serve no purpose other than giving the others a chance to talk him into going along.

Don's cocky and with cause. He's delivered and expected to deliver with Jaguar. He didn't want that account by whoring out Joan regardless of the rewards. He wanted it because they earned it.


----------



## lpamelaa (May 3, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> ...and let me add how awesome TCF is, I would never have found tomandlorenzo without it!


Diane, I'm so happy to introduce more people to the goodness of tomandlorenzo.  My sister got me hooked on them when she pointed me to their excellent Project Runway recaps.


----------



## avery (May 29, 2006)

DougF said:


> Not my impression at all. Don walked out because he wanted the discussion to end right there. Staying behind and talking about it was going to serve no purpose other than giving the others a chance to talk him into going along.
> 
> Don's cocky and with cause. He's delivered and expected to deliver with Jaguar. He didn't want that account by whoring out Joan regardless of the rewards. He wanted it because they earned it.


I can't see Don's walking out being something he thought through analytically, in that moment. His mother was a prostitute... it was a visceral reaction. I'm pretty sure he called Bobbie Barrett a whore when he was angered by her sexual gossip about him and I'm certain he called Betty a whore [after Roger slipped about Henry]. Don was also offended when Betty wanted to wear that bikini. He has issues here and despite his own womanizing, it seems like a line he can't cross.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

avery said:


> I can't see Don's walking out being something he thought through analytically, in that moment. His mother was a prostitute... it was a visceral reaction. I'm pretty sure he called Bobbie Barrett a whore when he was angered by her sexual gossip about him and I'm certain he called Betty a whore [after Roger slipped about Henry]. Don was also offended when Betty wanted to wear that bikini. He has issues here and despite his own womanizing, it seems like a line he can't cross.


And yet Don himself has used a prostitute, no?


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

cmontyburns said:


> And yet Don himself has used a prostitute, no?


Yes, and earlier in the season he didn't seem to have a problem with setting up a client with a prostitute, and hang around until he finished. And he was pretty cordial with the Madam of the place.

Don was all over the place this episode. He seems like a ticking bomb to me.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

There's a huge difference between someone who has chosen prostitution and someone who's being strong armed into it by her employer.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

cmontyburns said:


> And yet Don himself has used a prostitute, no?


When?


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

I can't remember when, I think it was after the divorce, but there was a scene where Don hired a prostitute to slap his face while they were having sex.


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Robin said:


> There's a huge difference between someone who has chosen prostitution and someone who's being strong armed into it by her employer.


I thought they made it pretty clear that Joan could choose to go through with it or not.

It was still a choice. A HARD choice, but a choice nonetheless.

I thought this was a pretty great episode. The only problem I had with it was that it wasn't clear to me that Don came to her place AFTER Joan had gone through with it, even with the repeat from Joans POV. It just didn't click for some reason, until I read it here and it made sense.

The little smile on Peggy's face at the end was fantastic.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

I agree that it was a choice, but she was still being pressured into it. A lot. Don was upset that they were pressuring her (and that they even told her, because just that was pressure and then they kept laying it on.)

I loved Peggy's smile! I thought she was going to be upset and hated that...this was perfect.


----------



## TiVo'Brien (Feb 8, 2002)

vman41 said:


> I can't remember when, I think it was after the divorce, but there was a scene where Don hired a prostitute to slap his face while they were having sex.


Yes, it was the season after the divorce from Betty when he had a very dark apartment by himself.


----------



## cmontyburns (Nov 14, 2001)

lpamelaa said:


> Diane, I'm so happy to introduce more people to the goodness of tomandlorenzo.  My sister got me hooked on them when she pointed me to their excellent Project Runway recaps.


I am reasonably fashion-aware, so I might have read this (had I stumbled across it) even if it weren't excellent. But that's the thing -- it _is _excellent. It's a good mix of commentary on period fashion, insight into costume design, and keen observations on how both inform and reflect the plot of each episode. For example: their observation this time about how Joan wore the fur coat Roger gave her a couple of seasons ago to her assignation with Jaguar Guy, and why, blew my mind. I never would have noticed that, and really appreciate the costuming touch and having it pointed out.

(Note to others: the site also does straightforward episode recaps in additon to costuming analysis. These too are very good.)


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Robin said:


> She wasn't upset because she expected him to know something he didn't, she was upset because he put his foot down and said "no". That might have flown with Betty, but his marriage to Megan has been more of a partnership, less of a dictatorship.


The impression I got was Don said no so emphatically partly because he was blindsided. Then Megan was upset that he seemed to be going back on letting her pursue show business. (In other words I perceived a lot of her anger as being because she thought Don understood that show biz would require separation; so it was unfair of him to object now after previously accepting her choice)

I may well be wrong but I viewed that fight as originating from their different understanding of what Megan's new career choice would require.

Now Don might still have objected to Megan going out of town even if she'd sat down and made sure he understood before she began auditioning. But it doesn't surprise me that Don, when presented with an "oh, by the way I'll be out of town for 6 weeks" said basically hell, no.
Yes it shouldn't be a dictatorship, but it helps to make sure everyone's on the same page _before_ commiting to major life changes.


----------



## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

DougF said:


> Not my impression at all. Don walked out because he wanted the discussion to end right there. *Staying behind and talking about it was going to serve no purpose other than giving the others a chance to talk him into going along*.
> 
> *Don's cocky and with cause.* He's delivered and expected to deliver with Jaguar. He didn't want that account by whoring out Joan regardless of the rewards. He wanted it because they earned it.


He's cocky and yet afraid he'd be talked into something he vehemently opposes? Hmm, not so sure about that.

If he truly opposed the notion, he should have stayed in the meeting and make his case to quash it. Walking out of a debate is not much of a compelling argument, especially amongst equal partners that are free to make the choice that he doesn't endorse.



avery said:


> I can't see Don's walking out being something he thought through analytically, in that moment. His mother was a prostitute... it was a visceral reaction.


So maybe he couldn't stand the notion and had to get out of the meeting. Shouldn't he at least have walked into Joan's office right then and told her what's in the wind and made the same speech that he made later after she had already slept with Herb? But he didn't do that until Pete told Don that she was good with the plan and was given a partnership.

I know Don is charismatic, handsome, smooth, and so on, but his actions don't add up unless you throw in ruthlessly manipulative, it seems to me.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

minimeh said:


> So maybe he couldn't stand the notion and had to get out of the meeting. Shouldn't he at least have walked into Joan's office right then and told her what's in the wind and made the same speech that he made later after she had already slept with Herb? But he didn't do that until Pete told Don that she was good with the plan and was given a partnership.
> 
> I know Don is charismatic, handsome, smooth, and so on, but his actions don't add up unless you throw in ruthlessly manipulative, it seems to me.


Don is used to being the one in charge, the one that gets the final say. IMO, him telling the other partners NO, was, in his mind, the end of the discussion. It's the same thing he did with Megan. Whether he is right or not, he believes his opinion matters more than those of others. So if he thinks the issue is dead why would he bring it up to Joan? He wouldn't, his whole point was to protect her from the whole proposition.


----------



## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Don is used to being the one in charge, the one that gets the final say. IMO, him telling the other partners NO, was, in his mind, the end of the discussion.


He didn't seemed surprised when Pete told him that the other partners voted against him, though. I would find it pretty hard to believe that any equal partner would think he had the final say. Sure, amongst those that report to him (or maybe even in his mind those that marry him.) But if he did have that fundamental misunderstanding of the structure of the company, shouldn't his reaction have been that his vote trumped theirs and the plan could not go through under any circumstances?


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Whether he is right or not, he believes his opinion matters more than those of others.


True. Plus, there have been any number of times throughout the entire run of this show where Don walking out -- either literally or metaphorically -- did, indeed, end the discussion then and there. I don't believe there is any reason to believe Don had any ulterior motive here. He thought he was shutting the door on any further discussion.


WhiskeyTango said:


> So if he thinks the issue is dead why would he bring it up to Joan? He wouldn't, his whole point was to protect her from the whole proposition.


Precisely.


----------



## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

WhiskeyTango said:


> So if he thinks the issue is dead why would he bring it up to Joan? He wouldn't, his whole point was to protect her from the whole proposition.


[I meant to answer this. Oops.]

Joan had been approached already with the proposition. So if Don felt so opposed, wouldn't it be to her benefit to let her know that he wouldn't hear of it and fully backs her rejecting it? In fact, when he finally did make that speech, Joan was shown to be visibly comforted by his stance.

Joan is a big girl and doesn't need be protected from the proposition. She does benefit from knowing that Don is repelled and backs her. It's what friends do.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

Dawghows said:


> True. Plus, there have been any number of times throughout the entire run of this show where Don walking out -- either literally or metaphorically -- did, indeed, end the discussion then and there.


Walking out isn't classic Don. Don's normal approach to this would be "If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation".

Here it was more of an emotional response, I think.


----------



## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

minimeh said:


> [I meant to answer this. Oops.]
> 
> Joan had been approached already with the proposition. So if Don felt so opposed, wouldn't it be to her benefit to let her know that he wouldn't hear of it and fully backs her rejecting it? In fact, when he finally did make that speech, Joan was shown to be visibly comforted by his stance.
> 
> Joan is a big girl and doesn't need be protected from the proposition. She does benefit from knowing that Don is repelled and backs her. It's what friends do.


She was propositioned by Pete. Her telling him 'you can't afford it' was her way of blowing him off. I don't think she actually expected an offer. So Don going to her and telling her what happened would likely just have embarrassed her more knowing that they actually seriously considered whoring her out. Joan didn't seem too happy when Lane came into her office to discuss the fact that they (the partners) had discussed it.


----------



## DougF (Mar 18, 2003)

minimeh said:


> ...He's cocky and yet afraid he'd be talked into something he vehemently opposes? Hmm, not so sure about that....


I probably didn't word that the best, but I don't think he was afraid of being talked into it. I think he just wasn't going to discuss it anymore.



minimeh said:


> ...If he truly opposed the notion, he should have stayed in the meeting and make his case to quash it. Walking out of a debate is not much of a compelling argument, especially amongst equal partners that are free to make the choice that he doesn't endorse...


His walking out was basically stating "Not going to happen. End of discussion." Staying and talking was going to continue a discussion that, in his mind, was over. He made his statement and left. I think as far as he was concerened, that was the end of it.


----------



## minimeh (Jun 20, 2011)

DougF said:


> His walking out was basically stating "Not going to happen. End of discussion." Staying and talking was going to continue a discussion that, in his mind, was over. He made his statement and left. I think as far as he was concerened, that was the end of it.


Yeah I get that. Looks like most everybody agrees. The thing is, Don is nothing but an equal partner to the others, not superior in any way within the charter of the business and certainly not possessing overriding veto power. So how could he realistically think that was the end of it? Doesn't add up.

So I'm walking out of this discussion and that's the end of it. 

(See, doesn't really work. But then again, I'm not Don Draper.  )


----------



## wouldworker (Sep 7, 2004)

vman41 said:


> How big a step is it, really, from being the boss's mistress and getting getting expensive gifts like furs (i.e. the one Don sold to Roger) and sleeping with a client to get a piece of the company?


I know you got a lot of crap for this post, but I think you were close to the mark. The partners made it clear that they think Joan is a whore. If they didn't think she was a whore they wouldn't have asked her to do it. I think Joan figured, "They already think I'm a whore whether I do it or not. I might as well get something out of this."


----------



## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

For 5x my salary? I'd do it. 

Has to net 5x after taxes though, they better gross it up.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

minimeh said:


> Yeah I get that. Looks like most everybody agrees. The thing is, Don is nothing but an equal partner to the others, not superior in any way within the charter of the business and certainly not possessing overriding veto power. So how could he realistically think that was the end of it? Doesn't add up.


Because he doesn't see it that way.

He's used to putting his got down and getting what he wants.

I wonder if this episode was a reality check, between Joan, Peggy, and Megan?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

minimeh said:


> Yeah I get that. Looks like most everybody agrees. The thing is, Don is nothing but an equal partner to the others, not superior in any way within the charter of the business and certainly not possessing overriding veto power. So how could he realistically think that was the end of it? Doesn't add up.
> 
> So I'm walking out of this discussion and that's the end of it.
> 
> (See, doesn't really work. But then again, I'm not Don Draper.  )


I don't think it would have occurred to Don in a million years that the other partners would continue to discuss it and reach a deal with Joan behind his back. As far as he was concerned, he ended any talk of it when he left the room.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think it would have occurred to Don in a million years that the other partners would continue to discuss it and reach a deal with Joan behind his back. As far as he was concerned, he ended any talk of it when he left the room.


Exactly. It doesn't matter that technically they're equal partners, that's not how Don sees it.


----------



## chrispitude (Apr 23, 2005)

tiams said:


> It makes sense to me. He knows Joan has to make her own decisions. He very recently had his attempts to be a part of her life (by helping her financially and hitting on her romantically) rebuffed in very uncertain terms. She has told him to let her be and he did.


Not only that, but to have her willing to do this (from what Pete told him) after rejecting him? I don't think he'd have have a desire to go digging in that direction any more.


----------



## gamndbndr (Jul 3, 2007)

I'm thinking that Lane's deed will be undone by a check bouncing for insufficient funds. Back in the 60's you'd only find an unauthorized check when you got the statement and reconciled, or all of a sudden your checks start bouncing due to NSF. 

And in advertising you don't want your media buys going NSF, much less the subcontractors working on your account. 

Should prove an interesting development if it happens to SCDP.


----------



## ConstableClyde (May 1, 2012)

I loved this episode!


----------



## Mikeyis4dcats (Oct 2, 2003)

minimeh said:


> Yeah I get that. Looks like most everybody agrees. The thing is, Don is nothing but an equal partner to the others, not superior in any way within the charter of the business and certainly not possessing overriding veto power. So how could he realistically think that was the end of it? Doesn't add up.
> 
> So I'm walking out of this discussion and that's the end of it.
> 
> (See, doesn't really work. But then again, I'm not Don Draper.  )


Don is generally the rainmaker. Equal partner or not, they will usually follow his lead.


----------



## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

DevdogAZ said:


> did anyone else have the thought of the empty elevator shaft


ever since LA LAW I think that every time there is an elevator on TV that we can't see the inside of...



grant33 said:


> The twist that Don went to Joan's apartment after she had already slept with Herb from Jaguar was brilliantly done.


WOW - that went completely over my head! 
I knew I saved this episode for a reason...


----------



## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

gamndbndr said:


> I'm thinking that Lane's deed will be undone by a check bouncing for insufficient funds. Back in the 60's you'd only find an unauthorized check when you got the statement and reconciled, or all of a sudden your checks start bouncing due to NSF.


I think Joan will be the one to discover Lane's improprieties and then it will be interesting to see whether she blows the whistle or helps him cover it up.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

vman41 said:


> I think Joan will be the one to discover Lane's improprieties and then it will be interesting to see whether she blows the whistle or helps him cover it up.


oh my, I hadn't thought about that, but it makes perfect sense from both logical and dramatic standpoints.


----------



## Squeak (May 12, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> When Peggy was waiting for the elevator and then it dinged, did anyone else have the thought of the empty elevator shaft from a couple episodes ago and that perhaps Peggy would step in without really looking? That thought only lasted for half a second as I watched, but I wonder if anyone else thought the same.


I apologize in advance -- my wife and I are just catching up with this season, and watched this episode tonight.

But as I read through this and say your comment above, and then your signature below it of :



> "You don't own a TV? What's all your furniture pointed at?" Joey Tribbiani


I had to laugh! That is exactly how Joey Tribbiani lost his job on General Hospital -- by Dr. Drake Ramore(sp) falling down an empty elevator shaft!


----------

