# I did the math, and Tivo makes no sense



## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

So... I finally sat down and went through every season pass on my 6 Tivos. I then went to iTunes, and priced out what a season for each show costs.

Then I took the video portion of my cable bill, added the cost of the Tivos, and guess what?

*It's cheaper to buy every single show from iTunes than to pay for cable and Tivo.* And you don't have to worry about conflicts, or missing a show, or signal loss, or a sports event running long, or the president's speech, or a guide issue. And every show is available within 24 hours of being broadcast.

*And it's way cheaper - over $1000 cheaper a year.* And it gets even cheaper if the iTunes rental model ever kicks in fully enough to be useful across more stations. And I didn't even factor in the up-front cost of the Tivo boxes.

And I (and my family) watch a ton of TV, more than most.

Has anyone else actually done this exercise to see how much money you're wasting paying for cable and Tivo?

I'm now moving towards getting rid of cable a piece at a time, then getting rid of all my Tivos.

The more I dig into this, the more it seems absurd that millions of people are all recording the same show on millions of hard drives, when the show is already in iTunes (or Amazon) waiting to be streamed to us, whenever we want.

What am I missing?


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## janry (Jan 2, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> What am I missing?


I don't know about you, but I'd miss a lot of college football games.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> So... I finally sat down and went through every season pass on my 6 Tivos. I then went to iTunes, and priced out what a season for each show costs.
> 
> Then I took the video portion of my cable bill, added the cost of the Tivos, and guess what?
> 
> ...


You are not alone. Many people are considering cutting the cord on cable. Most people I talk to are focused more on the Netflix/Hulu Plus model than from getting shows on iTunes. I will tell you that if you use a Roku with Netflix and Hulu Plus you have a 60.00 up front cost with 20.00 per month. Roku can also stream Amazon rentals as well for the shows not available from either of those two services. When I've done the research I discover that without a cable subscription TWC wants to charge more for road runner service, so you have to factor that in as well.


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## vman41 (Jun 18, 2002)

What if you just have 2 TiVos and iTunes only handles the conflicts?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

You must watch less than you think you do if it is cheaper. 

4 shows at 4 times a month comes to $16 which is about the cost I can get local channels only, usually $13-$16 depending on cable company, and have way more than 4 weekly shows available now. 

At 30 weekly shows at 4 times a month you are looking at $120 which is way more than my cable bill.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

Really? Every show is available within 24 hrs of broadcast?

I can't find any episodes of this season's "Big Bang Theory" on either Amazon or iTunes. My local channel skipped one episode so they could show Gubernatorial candidates spouting their nonsense, and I haven't found a way to either TiVo it or buy it anywhere.

If it is available, I would appreciate a link. (Please do not suggest BitTorrent.)


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

vman41 said:


> What if you just have 2 TiVos and iTunes only handles the conflicts?


Then yours isn't as big as someone who has 6 TiVo's.  Err, I mean your viewing consumption isn't as big.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

dlfl said:


> If it is available, I would appreciate a link. (Please do not suggest BitTorrent.)


I don't see this season out there. http://www.clicker.com/tv/the-big-bang-theory/


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> Has anyone else actually done this exercise to see how much money you're wasting paying for cable and Tivo?


I've been saying this for a while now. Cable is dead; TV will be moving toward a pay-per-view download model. It's ridiculous to spend $100+ per month to watch one or two channels.

However, I think you've unfairly targeted your thread at Tivo. I see this as much more a cable-centric issue than a DVR-centric one. While it's true that the DVR is obsolete without programming to record, it will take a while for the shift to PPV to happen, and the Tivo will be quite handy until then. Even then, the Premiere is aimed at transcending the traditional role of a DVR. With support for things like Hulu+, Amazon, Netflix, etc., the Tivo is far from obsolete. It's just a matter of whether or not some other box can do it better and cheaper.


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## orangeboy (Apr 19, 2004)

smbaker said:


> I've been saying this for a while now. Cable is dead; TV will be moving toward a pay-per-view download model. It's ridiculous to spend $100+ per month to watch one or two channels...


While I agree with the sentiment about spending a bunch of money per month for just a few channels that are viewed, I'm thinking a pay-per-view model will end up costing much, much more in the end, unless those offerings are in the range of pennies per view, and not dollars, as they are now.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> At 30 weekly shows at 4 times a month you are looking at $120 which is way more than my cable bill.


That's 120 shows at $3 per show or $360 a month.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

WhiskeyTango said:


> That's 120 shows at $3 per show or $360 a month.


I was basing it off the Itunes $.99 price to rent.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> You must watch less than you think you do if it is cheaper.
> 
> 4 shows at 4 times a month comes to $16 which is about the cost I can get local channels only, usually $13-$16 depending on cable company, and have way more than 4 weekly shows available now.
> 
> At 30 weekly shows at 4 times a month you are looking at $120 which is way more than my cable bill.


That's a theoretical model. It's not realistic to watch 30 fresh hours of TV a week, as there's really not that much new content. Summer, holidays, Saturday, etc.

Most series = 12-24 shows for an entire year.

I was skeptical too, doing the math in my head. Until I finally sat down to figure it out for real.

Anyway, the model I used was to take all my Tivos and look at the season passes, and then price that out. That's much more realistic, and I suggest you try it out if you really want to see.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

dlfl said:


> Really? Every show is available within 24 hrs of broadcast?
> 
> I can't find any episodes of this season's "Big Bang Theory" on either Amazon or iTunes. My local channel skipped one episode so they could show Gubernatorial candidates spouting their nonsense, and I haven't found a way to either TiVo it or buy it anywhere.
> 
> If it is available, I would appreciate a link. (Please do not suggest BitTorrent.)


Never watched that show, but you're right that it's not up there. There were 4 really tangential junk shows that my family watches that aren't up there, plus for some reason The Apprentice isn't up there. But everything else we watch is.

Frankly, if it cuts out some garbage TV for us, that's probably not a bad thing either!

More importantly, a couple of TV shows doesn't justify the crazy high cable prices. I'm willing to give up some specific TV for this.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

orangeboy said:


> While I agree with the sentiment about spending a bunch of money per month for just a few channels that are viewed, I'm thinking a pay-per-view model will end up costing much, much more in the end, unless those offerings are in the range of pennies per view, and not dollars, as they are now.


Just do the math - that's what started this me on this thread. It's way way cheaper, even with the tons of TV we all watch. And even limiting it to just iTunes, and all HD shows (for the stuff in HD).

Factor in NetFlix for movies, and TV series you can wait a year-ish to watch, and it gets even cheaper. (I watch 30-Rock on NetFlix only.)

If Hulu ever gets it's act together and stops making us pay for advertising, and gets all the networks on board, then this is a no-brainer.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> While I agree with the sentiment about spending a bunch of money per month for just a few channels that are viewed, I'm thinking a pay-per-view model will end up costing much, much more in the end, unless those offerings are in the range of pennies per view, and not dollars, as they are now.


Well not really... There was a time when I was young where television programming was actually free. In fact, I can put an antenna up on my roof even now and watch four networks which comprise 80% of the programming I watch.

If they can provide that programming for free over the airwaves, then they could probably provide it for free on the Internet. There might be some extra cost for the upstream bandwidth, but that would be a nominal fee. If upstream bandwidth costs were significant, then P2P technology like bittorrent could be leveraged. People will trade quality for convenience, that's why itunes is a success and SACD is not.

As far as custom programming, look at something like Showtime or HBO. It doesn't cost that much to purchase quality programming even without commercials. PPV ought to easily be able to provide the ability to have multiple tiers of content, from commercial embedded (and cheap) to commercial free (and expensive).

The current cable infrastructure is a product of the physical medium that it was deployed on. It was infeasible thirty years ago (or even ten years ago) to send custom programming to each household. That kind of individual bandwidth just didn't exist. It's not infeasible anymore.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

smbaker said:


> I've been saying this for a while now. Cable is dead; TV will be moving toward a pay-per-view download model. It's ridiculous to spend $100+ per month to watch one or two channels.
> 
> However, I think you've unfairly targeted your thread at Tivo. I see this as much more a cable-centric issue than a DVR-centric one. While it's true that the DVR is obsolete without programming to record, it will take a while for the shift to PPV to happen, and the Tivo will be quite handy until then. Even then, the Premiere is aimed at transcending the traditional role of a DVR. With support for things like Hulu+, Amazon, Netflix, etc., the Tivo is far from obsolete. It's just a matter of whether or not some other box can do it better and cheaper.


I'm targeting Tivo because:

1) Tivo is awful at third-party integration. Their implementation of NetFlix is the worst I've used. YouTube is almost as bad. Amazon VOD requires me to wait for minutes before I can start watching. Etc.

2) Tivo charges a monthly fee, even if you don't have cable. Even if you just want to use the box to transfer from other (subscribed) Tivos, plus NetFlix, etc. AppleTV, Roku, etc., have no monthly fee - you just pay for the content.

3) Tivo refuses to get into the streaming game. They keep sticking to the "copy locally, then allow trick-play functionality" model. NetFlix/YouTube broke this, but otherwise it's 100% non-streaming, and it's getting ridiculous. The "MusicChoice" implementation is the most obvious "this is a joke, right?" example - just try it out sometime.

And yes, the whole DVR model is just silly when you really think about it. It made sense for the last 10 years, but it's over now (it just doesn't know it).

Tivo has failed to innovate the set top box, and has been passed by by nearly everyone. They had a 10+ year head start, and they blew it.

Anyway I'm excited to try to move to the 100% streaming model. It will take some time, and will be done in steps, but I expect to be fully converted within 12 months (hopefully sooner).


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> That's a theoretical model. It's not realistic to watch 30 fresh hours of TV a week, as there's really not that much new content. Summer, holidays, Saturday, etc.
> 
> Most series = 12-24 shows for an entire year.
> 
> ...


This just says you don't watch as much TV as you think you do. Looking on the Thefutoncritic's calender of just new episodes tonight there are 60 or so possible shows you could be recording. This is in one night.

You may not find more than 30 shows a week to record, some of us have no problem doing so and more.

It has nothing to do with being skeptical. The math doesn't work except in single fill incidents or you are willing to wait for DVD/Blu-Ray hoping everything eventually shows up there. At 4 weekly shows every month for the entire year which is extremely easy to do assuming you could rent each one for $.99, you are looking at $16 or the cost of just the local channels assuming you don't have a HD OTA.

You keep saying you watch a ton of TV. How many season passes do you have? And of those how many are currently active if you don't delete them between seasons?


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

How do you figure if you only had 1 Tivo instead of 6?


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> This just says you don't watch as much TV as you think you do. Looking on the Thefutoncritic's calender of just new episodes tonight there are 60 or so possible shows you could be recording. This is in one night.
> 
> You may not find more than 30 shows a week to record, some of us have no problem doing so and more.
> 
> ...


Combined season passes, removing duplicates, is 127. And while I treated them all like they occur in one year, I'm pretty sure some are spread out over a couple years (like all the Top Chef variants). But there are others that are twice a year (like Survivor), so it probably all works out.

Then I went to iTunes, and looked up the cost for a season pass for each one. Season passes are anywhere from 20% to 50% discounted off the single-episode pricing, so even $3 shows never exceed ~$50-60 for the 24-episode year, many especially cable and shorter run shows are much less.

Again, I think you're just trying to do the math in your head. Do what I did, and I think you'll be surprised.

Here's another variant (or step along the way) - just cut out the cable shows, and use HD OTA + Tivo (or HD OTA + WMC, or whatever HD OTA recorder you want). Then you're left with only the Tivo costs (which averages to about $8-10/Tivo/Month) for networks, and the iTunes costs get cut at least in half. That makes it even cheaper.

The issue I have with the keeping Tivo model is, for 6 Tivos even just for OTA, that's 600-700 per year, just to keep my Tivos running. *For the cost of keeping my Tivos running (not even the up front costs), that's 350-700 hours of television downloaded from iTunes!*

Anyway - lay out all your SPs, remove dupes, then go through them all on iTunes and price it out.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I have 2 Lifetime Premiers, 1 Roku, and 3 PS3s. I find OTA and Netflix to be more than enough for me. 

Most people only watch 5 channels beyond the basic OTA stations (if even that) and so paying all that money for cable/satellite just does not make sense.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> 2) Tivo charges a monthly fee, even if you don't have cable.


That's why I'll never buy another non-lifetime Tivo again. Better to look at it with PLS as a one-time purchase and compare it to the other devices that were one-time purchases. I'll cede the point here that Tivo is expensive compared to a Roku, but it's also doing more than a Roku does. Apples != Oranges.



AbMagFab said:


> 3) Tivo refuses to get into the streaming game.


"Refuses" implies insight into Tivo's decision-making that we don't have. They might simply be too inept to implement it. They are demonstrating a great deal of ineptitude with the still-unfinished HDUI on the Premiere. If they can't get that job done, then what makes anyone think they have the ability to implement streaming?



AbMagFab said:


> And yes, the whole DVR model is just silly when you really think about it.


The DVR model is fine as long as cable television exists. If cable television ceases to exist (which I predict it will), then the DVR becomes irrelevant. It doesn't mean the DVR is bad -- the DVR serves the purpose that it is intended to for as long as that purpose exists. If you no longer have that purpose, then you no longer need the DVR.

I agree with you that to buy a Tivo for streaming would be wasteful. If all you want to do is stream, but a streaming device and save a lot of money.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

ThAbtO said:


> How do you figure if you only had 1 Tivo instead of 6?


Well, my cable bill wouldn't go down all that much (just CC rental fees), but I'd lose the ability to easily watch shows in multiple rooms (Home Theater, Family, Master bedroom, Guest room, etc.). So I'd have to supplement with something else.

If I'm going to switch to something like AppleTV/iTunes or Roku/Amazon, then I need/want to eliminate something else. Cable is the first thing that really needs to go, as my math seems to indicate.

I will probably keep Tivos (at least 3) running for OTA HD only for a while, both to ease my wife into it, and to figure out any "gotchas" on the iTunes model. Or switch to Amazon/Roku if that makes more sense.

So yes, your point about reducing Tivos makes sense, but that alone doesn't do much to reduce the bulk of the costs, and it makes watching TV way too inconvenient. And more importantly, Tivo is a horrible box for anything but time-shifting DVR recordings. It's awful for Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, etc., so I really want another box for those services, and then there's really no need for Tivo anymore (or in a while).


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

smbaker said:


> That's why I'll never buy another non-lifetime Tivo again. Better to look at it with PLS as a one-time purchase and compare it to the other devices that were one-time purchases. I'll cede the point here that Tivo is expensive compared to a Roku, but it's also doing more than a Roku does. Apples != Oranges.
> 
> "Refuses" implies insight into Tivo's decision-making that we don't have. They might simply be too inept to implement it. They are demonstrating a great deal of ineptitude with the still-unfinished HDUI on the Premiere. If they can't get that job done, then what makes anyone think they have the ability to implement streaming?
> 
> ...


Yes, you're right. It's either refusal to implement streaming, or inability to do so. In either case, it's a Tivo failure though.

And I guess my point is that streaming is all that really makes sense anymore. Recording a show on your own, when it's out there to stream whenever you want, is just silly. And paying the premium for cable, plus the premium for Tivo (lifetime or otherwise) pays for 1.5-2x all the content you watch if you stream it. Go ahead and pay for the 7 variants of "Housewives of *" and every other show you want, and you're still saving hundreds of dollars.

You're saving money, and radically simplifying your infrastructure.

It should be noted that a key factor allowing this is the high reliability of internet bandwidth. Otherwise this wouldn't be practical. I live in a FiOS area, so my internet has been rock-solid for years with only one outage ever.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I can't see how this is going to work. At least not yet. How are you going to figure out what to watch when new shows start up in the fall? With TiVo I can record the first 2-3 episodes of all the new series and if one of them sucks I cancel SP and move on. But if I had to pay $3/episode for them then I'd probably be more hesitant and I might miss out on something I would otherwise enjoy.

I can't really see this being a viable option until every show is available, they are all available via a single easy to use interface, and there is some sort of flat rate subscription model so I can try out all the new shows like I do now.

Personally, if I were in your position, I'd look at the channels I'm recording from first. If you can get 80&#37; of what you record OTA, or from a basic cable plan that only costs $20, then maybe the PPV model wont be so attractive after all. You can still use PPV to fill in the gaps, but I bet it's cheaper if instead of eliminating cable you drop to the lowest level of service available that encompasses the biggest majority of channels you actually record. 

Dan


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> Combined season passes, removing duplicates, is 127. And while I treated them all like they occur in one year, I'm pretty sure some are spread out over a couple years (like all the Top Chef variants). But there are others that are twice a year (like Survivor), so it probably all works out.
> 
> Then I went to iTunes, and looked up the cost for a season pass for each one. Season passes are anywhere from 20% to 50% discounted off the single-episode pricing, so even $3 shows never exceed ~$50-60 for the 24-episode year, many especially cable and shorter run shows are much less.
> 
> ...


Since most of my shows aren't on itunes that isn't possible. Even if they were I don't have to do the math on paper to see I would be more than my current cost. All you have to do is analyze how much per month your cost would be per show and if it is more than you are paying now it isn't worth it.

I pay $150 per month which covers all 3 of my lifetime TiVos, my internet, FiOS TV, and my phone. My internet and phone bundle would be around $100 a month so say $60 for cable just to have some overlap.

At $60 a month I have to watch less than 60 episodes or less than 15 shows a month to come out a head. I have way more than 15 season passes at any given time. My TiVos are lifetime and I already recouped my cost on those.

Now if I hadn't and had picked up 3 TiVo HDs at $400 each with lifetime, over 3 years this runs you another $34 a month or gives you another 7-8 shows. This brings your total to 23 shows a month. Now even at a discount for a season pass I don't see it being more than 50% of a discount so say it gives you a total of 40 shows a month. You are still less than your season passes.

Of course after those three years you are now spending more than if you had cable.


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## Chew (Jan 22, 2003)

janry said:


> I don't know about you, but I'd miss a lot of college football games.


This is my one sticking point too.


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

Hmmm. No Closed Captions is a big reason for me to not go with downloads or streaming, and then there's the need for high-speed Internet, which costs ~$40/month. My Cable bill is about $80/month, and a quick glance at iTunes shows most of the shows I want to be either $1 or $2 (like Mythbusters). At that rate I could only get 2-3 shows per day before Cable starts coming out cheaper, and I'm still stuck with the stupid 24-hour rental period so if I can't finish something in 1 day I have to pay for it again.

I have two TivoHDs with lifetime. Far more flexible than streaming.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

janry said:


> I don't know about you, but I'd miss a lot of college football games.


I'd miss a lot of baseball games. NBA and NHL fans would also miss a lot of games. College basketball fans would miss a lot of games.

Some of us can't get OTA.

Internet charges are likely to go up if you drop video. Extensive use of ITunes might result in charges for going over your cap.

Do I-Tunes or Netflix show closed captioning?

What resolution? What bitrate? Probably a second class picture.

FiOS has an impressive VoD offering. Might reduce the number of DVRs some household require.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Dan203 said:


> I can't see how this is going to work. At least not yet. How are you going to figure out what to watch when new shows start up in the fall? With TiVo I can record the first 2-3 episodes of all the new series and if one of them sucks I cancel SP and move on.


this and my 45$ cable bill makes this model a non starter for me


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> Since most of my shows aren't on itunes that isn't possible. Even if they were I don't have to do the math on paper to see I would be more than my current cost. All you have to do is analyze how much per month your cost would be per show and if it is more than you are paying now it isn't worth it.
> 
> I pay $150 per month which covers all 3 of my lifetime TiVos, my internet, FiOS TV, and my phone. My internet and phone bundle would be around $100 a month so say $60 for cable just to have some overlap.
> 
> ...


Not sure where you get cable, but $50/month + cable cards is crazy inexpensive. And $100 for phone+Internet is crazy expensive. Perhaps you have this backwards?

My cable bill is ~$130-150 per month for video + cable cards (hard to separate all the taxes). My internet and phone are around $60/month for 30/30.

My 6 Tivos are around $50-60/month (no lifetime, but its a wash as I tend to replace them, historically, every 2-3 years anyway).

So total, just for video (cable+Tivo), is $180-210 per month. This is a standard FIOS Extreme HD triple play plus 6 (or 10, can't recall how many single stream cards I still have) cable cards plus HBO/Cinemax. Nothing crazy.

Anyway, you get the point. Sure, if you live in an area where, uncharacteristically, your phone/internet is more than your cable, then keep cable as you have a great deal. For most people, that isn't the case.

(There's another side-goal, which is the smidgen of friction involved in clicking a season pass when I see the cost right there, versus buried in a monthly fee, might make we watch less garbage TV. Maybe read more? A good thing either way.)


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

1 Tivo lifetimed + 17 netflix, free OTA, 33 dsl = my recipe.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Dan203 said:


> I can't see how this is going to work. At least not yet. How are you going to figure out what to watch when new shows start up in the fall? With TiVo I can record the first 2-3 episodes of all the new series and if one of them sucks I cancel SP and move on. But if I had to pay $3/episode for them then I'd probably be more hesitant and I might miss out on something I would otherwise enjoy.


Actually, iTunes (for example) makes that really easy. They have a much more robust interface for seeing what's new overall, by genre, based on shows I already watch/like, etc. Much more effective than having to watch commercials for new shows, that's for sure!



> Personally, if I were in your position, I'd look at the channels I'm recording from first. If you can get 80% of what you record OTA, or from a basic cable plan that only costs $20, then maybe the PPV model wont be so attractive after all. You can still use PPV to fill in the gaps, but I bet it's cheaper if instead of eliminating cable you drop to the lowest level of service available that encompasses the biggest majority of channels you actually record.


I'm sort of going that way anyway, most likely. I'll drop cable completely, but keep my OTA antenna, and a couple of Tivos (I'll drop the rest - keep the 2 or 3 that have the forever $6.95/month fee). That will give me much of the monthly savings, and yet I can still DVR all network shows. Then use iTunes for all cable shows.

That way, I can really try out the iTunes/AppleTV or Amazon/Roku for a while, see how well it works, see how easy it really is to find new shows I might like, etc. And still be able to record endless network shows for the cost of keeping 3 Tivos running (still $250/year, but much less than I'm paying now overall).

Then in 6-12 months, I expect that 99 cent HD rentals will be the norm, and I can dump everything but iTunes/Amazon streaming.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

I'm also (pleasantly) surprised no one has said something like "just watching Live TV is critical!" or "I need to have CNN on in the background". I keep trying to explain to my family that live news is for the iPad/Internet, not TV, and that watching linear news shows on a TV is almost dead anyway. 

And channel-scanning is a weird side effect of our current cable model. But on-demand is what everything is moving towards, and you don't really like channel-scanning, you're just used to it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> So total, just for video (cable+Tivo), is $180-210 per month.


Ok, I see your problem now, and yes I would want to fix that


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## vurbano (Apr 20, 2004)

I watch more than just what is on my season passes.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

AbMagFab said:


> My cable bill is ~$130-150 per month for video + cable cards (hard to separate all the taxes). My internet and phone are around $60/month for 30/30.
> 
> My 6 Tivos are around $50-60/month (no lifetime, but its a wash as I tend to replace them, historically, every 2-3 years anyway).
> 
> So total, just for video (cable+Tivo), is $180-210 per month. This is a standard FIOS Extreme HD triple play plus 6 (or 10, can't recall how many single stream cards I still have) cable cards plus HBO/Cinemax. Nothing crazy.


 I pay around $80/mo for directv with as many DVRs as I want.

When I had cable, I think I paid $119 for cable phone and Internet. TiVo was about $20/mo for two DVRs.

I think you're doing something wrong.... Maybe you should switch to satellite? Missing all sports, having to wait 24 hours then having to download everything sounds like a huge hassle to me...


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## NiteCourt (Mar 31, 2005)

I wouldn't mind trying a streaming model but the only broadband option in my area is Time Warner and most evenings it slows down so much it's hard enough to watch a flash ad in web site let alone stream video.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

NiteCourt said:


> I wouldn't mind trying a streaming model but the only broadband option in my area is Time Warner and most evenings it slows down so much it's hard enough to watch a flash ad in web site let alone stream video.


Cable internet can get bogged down by users in your neighborhood within a certain radius. So, a 20 mb cable internet connect can get to perhaps 2 mbs because your neighbors are surfing the net or with something. heavy usage.

Unlike Cable, DSL is your private internet connection which is not shared with anyone else.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> Not sure where you get cable, but $50/month + cable cards is crazy inexpensive. And $100 for phone+Internet is crazy expensive. Perhaps you have this backwards?
> 
> My cable bill is ~$130-150 per month for video + cable cards (hard to separate all the taxes). My internet and phone are around $60/month for 30/30.
> 
> ...


I have FiOS also. Triple Play was $119.99, now $124.99 which includes the 25/25, freedom essentials, and Extreme HD. I have 3 CableCARDs at $3.99 each which brings me to around $140-150 a month after taxes and fees. FiOS Double Play is 79.99 for 25/25 and Freedom essentials which comes out to around $95 after taxes, making it $55 for my cable and CableCARDs if I were to drop cable. https://www22.verizon.com/residential/bundles/overview#fios

I am also on my 3rd time of Free HBO/Cinemax in a row since they keep offering it for free online 3 months at a time.

It sounds like you are on an old plan or no longer under contract since 30/30 isn't offered anymore. 20/5 went to 25/15 and then to 25/25 and the various 30 options went to 35/35 and became available as part of the Ultimate bundle since you couldn't bundle it previously. The Ultimate bundle runs $139.99, includes 35/35, Epix(varies per market since some also get or used to get Showtime), Red Zone, and Ultimate HD. It sounds like you need to review your Verizon bill compared to what they currently offer.

I replace mine also, but I am so far ahead since I have always made money selling my lifetime units to upgrade. The only time I didn't was when I foolishly paid monthly which I am still kicking myself over.


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## TolloNodre (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm watching Rangers/Yankees on one buffer and flipping to Monday Night Football on the other buffer - what is this iTunes you speak of...?


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

I also found it disgusting paying fios $150 for something thats available for cheaper, so I finally fully cut the chord 2 weeks ago, but my situation is a little different than yours.

First, I have 1 premiere and 2 HDs all lifetime. The HDs are both lifed for 3 years now so they basically paid themselves and I am lucky that my job pays for my Internet portion of my bill. So essentially my monthly out of pocket expense for entertainment through fios is $100 a month, and I eliminated it.

I am 20 miles west of NYC so I purchased a great UHF antenna and a great hi VHF antenna and combined them and installed them on the roof and ran them to the 3 tivos. Because of the two combined antennas, I get 96 - 100 signal strength on all OTA channels. You will call me crazy, but the HD picture quality blows away fios, even with their uncompressed claims.

Like anyone else with our interest in this stuff, I have multiple netflix devices like a ps3, 360 and roku. I have a new gen apple tv and an old apple tv with boxee installed. For the off cable shows that you can't get anywhere, close your eyes those of you with morals, I torrent.

For sports and other channels, i have a slingbox pro HD at my dads streaming to my slingcatcher at home that can also "sling" anything on a computer like hulu. Other options for sports are espn3 on the 360 and boxee.

My piece of advice to OP, install an antenna for the WAF.

I have to say, spending $150 on the antenna setup below made it a no brainer and made me much happier.


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

Aero 1 said:


>


Quite an impressive and unusual antenna you have there, it much have cost a pretty penny or 200.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

ThAbtO said:


> Quite an impressive and unusual antenna you have there, it much have cost a pretty penny or 200.


Close, $45 for the UHF (top part), $85 for the VHF (bottom part) and the combined to combine both antennas and $5 for the mast.

I think the best part of all of this is that I get a channel that shows he man and other 80's cartoons


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> So... I finally sat down and went through every season pass on my 6 Tivos. I then went to iTunes, and priced out what a season for each show costs.
> 
> Then I took the video portion of my cable bill, added the cost of the Tivos, and guess what?


I realize a bunch of other people mentioned lifetime already.. but I didn't see this exact question answered (sorry if I missed it in my quick search).

How long have you had your Tivos? Would you have passed the time where lifetime was cheaper (amortizing lifetime cost/length of ownership) compared to monthly, on at least some of your tivos? I would guess so.

So even if you got rid of cable, and went OTA, your theoretical lifetime Tivos wouldn't be costing you anything, except for electricity.

Basically, I guess you don't watch too much TV, though 6 Tivos is a lot, ESPECIALLY if you're paying monthly on them.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> That's a theoretical model. It's not realistic to watch 30 fresh hours of TV a week, as there's really not that much new content. Summer, holidays, Saturday, etc.


Whatchoo talking about, Willis?

I realize "most people" don't watch the evening news, though the national broadcasters' news still gets much higher ratings than the cable news (or news-ish) stations

But still, I think 30 hours a week is EASY to attain (30 hours of "commercial TV time").

7 * half hour news = 3.5 hours
ONE late night talk show/day = 5 hours
3 hours/day on weekdays = 15 hours
2 hours/day on weekends = 4 hours

that's 27.5 hours.. Add wheel of fortune/jeopardy, or daily show/colbert report, and you're over 30 hours (ok, if you really watch NO game shows and only ONE of daily show/colbert, it's 29.5 hours)..

But I think I'm LOWBALLING it for most people.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

1)Your title is provocative but misleading as to the post content- it's like saying "toyotas make no sense" when you are espousing the virtures of riding a bike- a better title it 'cable tv makes no sense'
2)Wow you pay a lot for cable tv- I pay $100 for internet and digital cable tv- no wonder you hate cable tv so much. I suprised you. also suprised you have a landline- haven't had a landline in 5 years?
3)Yes, I do like channel surfing to some degree- I have discovered many cool shows via surfing, plus I'm 30 so I've been doing this since I was a kid. Certainly its annoying when nothing is on, but tivo fixes that. I guess having to go and pick out each and every time would decrease what I watch.
4)I'm 30, I'm a huge computer freak who was programming my C64 in elementary school, but I'm sometimes a sceptic for somethings electronic/computer- seeing how long it took to go digital, I think it will be a LONG time before cable stops
5)While I do watch lots of network stuff and have gone OTA for a while, there are a few channles that I think (never really looked into it) that would be hard to find online, military channel, diy network, HGTV, lifetime, etc- I think are pretty difficult to replace right now
6)I've tried hulu and netflix and amazon streaming- they are ok but I'm not sold. Netflix was cool for some older movies/shows but I cringe when people use netflix for modern movies- I have high end HDTVs (pioneer kuro and sony xbr8) and netflix, even 'hd' is pretty low quality- nothing beats a blu-ray and its really the only way to watch a new movie at home.


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## wp746911 (Feb 19, 2005)

mattack said:


> Whatchoo talking about, Willis?
> 
> I realize "most people" don't watch the evening news, though the national broadcasters' news still gets much higher ratings than the cable news (or news-ish) stations
> 
> ...


also the math is much different for single people vs. families. I have 3 little girls, a wife and me. My wife and I watch about 1/2 the same stuff- the other 1/2 are drastically different. The kids watch somewhat the same stuff, but with some variability. Plus they often watch the same recorded show a few times if they love it- which would be hard if it is a rental...


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## ThAbtO (Apr 6, 2000)

mattack said:


> Would you have passed the time where lifetime was cheaper (amortizing lifetime cost/length of ownership) compared to monthly, on at least some of your tivos? I would guess so.


Back in the days of my S1, it was $199 for lifetime then and then it was $199 to transfer same lifetime to THD in '07. Never had cable, only OTA and back in the analog OTA world, there was even less channels than now (about 40 today).

My recording times is currently considered less then what was previously stated, minus the major sports events which I avoid.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

Aero 1 said:


> You will call me crazy, but the HD picture quality blows away fios, even with their uncompressed claims.


I wouldn't say "crazy". Many sane people convince themselves of things that aren't true, every day.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I haven't investigated what iTunes offers, but if it's like every other streaming service I've seen you can keep it. I have yet to find one that offers content in full HD (i.e., 720p or 1080i, not to mention 1080p for movies) with 5.1 audio at a minimum. Most of them scrimp on quality in one area or another. Besides, everything that's been mentioned here so far can be downloaded using BT clients for free if you know where to look.

If you're really interested in saving money and getting high quality content then consider an HTPC with Win 7 Media Center. Throw in a few ATSC tuners and you can record all of your local channels in HD absolutely free. If you want to free yourself from Tivo fees and cableco hardware, invest in a Ceton InfiniTV CableCARD tuner. It's not cheap at $399 but it's less than a Tivo Premiere with lifetime service and only requires a single CableCARD for four tuners. I've got an HTPC with a quad tuner InfiniTV 4 and four ATSC tuners that also does Blu-Ray playback with full HD audio, among a host of other things. I have several Media Extenders that allow me to share the tuners in other rooms as well as any recorded content on the HTPC.

Did I mention that I've eliminated all of my FIOS set-top boxes and extraneous CableCARDs as well as retired my two S3 Tivos? The savings I'm seeing will pay for the Ceton tuner in a little over a year.

I'll agree that Tivo makes no sense from a monetary standpoint when you compare it to other available options. But iTunes? Seriously? You must have stock in Apple to have come up with that bit of genius.


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## Dave_N (May 4, 2006)

With a family and desire to watch a lot of sports, I just don't see how this can work. For a single or a couple watching a few series per season, you may be onto something.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

I pay for every single tier and premium channel may cable company offers, except the Spanish ones. Including my 16/1 internet connection I pay ~$170/mo and that is with a discount for signing up for a 2 year contract. (it was over $200 without it)

I can see the appeal of going to the PPV model, but right now it's just not consistent enough for me. Maybe in 5-10 years it will all be fleshed out, but until then I'm going to stick with cable. It's expensive, but at least I can guarantee that every show I want to record is available to me via a single, simple to use, UI. That's not currently true of any of the major streaming services because they all have special deals with the various networks, blackout periods, etc... Like I said maybe in 5-10 years, but right now it's a little too "bleeding edge" for my taste.

Dan


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

wp746911 said:


> 2)Wow you pay a lot for cable tv- I pay $100 for internet and digital cable tv- no wonder you hate cable tv so much. I suprised you.


It's not difficult to rack up a $100+ cable tv bill without any fancy pay channels. From my comcast bill:

Basic+Extended = 59.95

Preferred Package = 16.95 [IIRC this gives me HD channels]

Sports Entertainment Package = $5.99 [No idea why I'm paying for this; gonna call them and find out. Probably had to buy it to get one specific channel that I wanted]

Digital additional outlet = $7.49 [For my bedroom]

2nd Cable Card = $1.50 x 2 [For each THD; presumably my switch to m-cards shall eliminate these]

Add in the taxes, fees, fcc fees, etc, and we're up to about $100. Add on another $60 for 16 Mbps Internet service and I'm sitting at $160 combined. That's more than my electric+water+gas utility bills combined.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

mattack said:


> I realize a bunch of other people mentioned lifetime already.. but I didn't see this exact question answered (sorry if I missed it in my quick search).
> 
> How long have you had your Tivos? Would you have passed the time where lifetime was cheaper (amortizing lifetime cost/length of ownership) compared to monthly, on at least some of your tivos? I would guess so.
> 
> ...


I mentioned it somewhere here - I replace my Tivos roughly once every three years, historically (not by plan), so lifetime never made sense for me. Moving lifetime always adds $199. In either case, it ends up being wash.

Plus, I have three Tivo plans, that I can swap new Tivos in for, on the $6.95 forever plan. That makes lifetime even less valuable, as it means closer to 4 years for break even (at $299 lifetime).


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

wp746911 said:


> also the math is much different for single people vs. families. I have 3 little girls, a wife and me. My wife and I watch about 1/2 the same stuff- the other 1/2 are drastically different. The kids watch somewhat the same stuff, but with some variability. Plus they often watch the same recorded show a few times if they love it- which would be hard if it is a rental...


I've found the kids shows to be half available on NetFlix (older seasons, but it doesn't really seem to matter), and half on iTunes. You can buy it on iTunes if you know they'll watch it a lot, and it's still pretty cheap. Nick/Disney kids shows are fairly inexpensive, especially with the multiple viewing thing.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

Aero 1 said:


> I also found it disgusting paying fios $150 for something thats available for cheaper, so I finally fully cut the chord 2 weeks ago, but my situation is a little different than yours.
> 
> First, I have 1 premiere and 2 HDs all lifetime. The HDs are both lifed for 3 years now so they basically paid themselves and I am lucky that my job pays for my Internet portion of my bill. So essentially my monthly out of pocket expense for entertainment through fios is $100 a month, and I eliminated it.
> 
> ...


I already have a solid HD antenna set up. In fact, we use OTA right now (and for the past few years) to record all network shows on half our Tivos (I just didn't both patching it into the other less watched Tivos). That's why killing cable and moving to OTA+Tivo as a first step will probably make the most sense.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

innocentfreak said:


> I have FiOS also. Triple Play was $119.99, now $124.99 which includes the 25/25, freedom essentials, and Extreme HD. I have 3 CableCARDs at $3.99 each which brings me to around $140-150 a month after taxes and fees. FiOS Double Play is 79.99 for 25/25 and Freedom essentials which comes out to around $95 after taxes, making it $55 for my cable and CableCARDs if I were to drop cable. https://www22.verizon.com/residential/bundles/overview#fios
> 
> I am also on my 3rd time of Free HBO/Cinemax in a row since they keep offering it for free online 3 months at a time.
> 
> ...


Nope, same plan. Just:
1) I pay for HBO/Cinemax = +$30
2) I have around 11 cable cards, as many are still single stream = +$20

So that's +$50 right there. And I pay monthly for Tivo, which is virtually the same as lifetime if you replace the boxes every three years, and is ~$8/Tivo/Month, so you need to add that in as well to the total video cost per month.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

Unless you plan to get rid of a tivo in pretty short order, monthly service is never the cost effective way to go. If the resale value is figured in, the break even point for a lifetime sub is well under a year. Even a broken tivo with lifetime has value in the sub. At least a THD or S3. The S2s are dropping due to the analog tv changeover.


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## NiteCourt (Mar 31, 2005)

ThAbtO said:


> Cable internet can get bogged down by users in your neighborhood within a certain radius. So, a 20 mb cable internet connect can get to perhaps 2 mbs because your neighbors are surfing the net or with something. heavy usage.
> 
> Unlike Cable, DSL is your private internet connection which is not shared with anyone else.


They did a node breakout a few years back and it was good for awhile then eventually it bogged down again. TWC was here 2 weeks ago when my cable modem wouldn't even go online in the evening (fine during the day) and they checked the signals and said all is well. I'm on the mid-level tier which is 384 Kbps up and 'upto' 7 Mbps down.

I'd get DSL but even though I'm in a heavily populated area and in a city I am told the local loop is too long.

Streaming everything is out for me.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wmcbrine said:


> I wouldn't say "crazy". Many sane people convince themselves of things that aren't true, every day.


you're right. sorry for making that obvious, misinformed statement. thanks for setting me straight.


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## lb3 (Feb 9, 2009)

AbMagFab said:


> Nope, same plan. Just:
> 1) I pay for HBO/Cinemax = +$30
> 2) I have around 11 cable cards, as many are still single stream = +$20
> 
> So that's +$50 right there. And I pay monthly for Tivo, which is virtually the same as lifetime if you replace the boxes every three years, and is ~$8/Tivo/Month, so you need to add that in as well to the total video cost per month.


Did you think about just eliminating the HBO/Cinemax and some of the Tivos? If you cut HBO/Cinemax and half your Tivos, that's $60/month right there. HBO/Cinemax could be replaced with Netflix and on demand. Not sure if you absolutely need six, but to replace the tivos, maybe run video/audio cables and use an IR blaster? Or maybe slingbox?

Also, are you sure about the price breakdown on your TV/Internet/Phone? You can't use the numbers on your bill, you have to look at the bundle prices. They want you to have as many services as possible so they tend to discount more the more you get. When I signed up the "double play" was only maybe $30 less than the triple play. It wasn't anywhere near $100.

Personally, I watch a lot of sports some of which are exclusively on cable channels so I don't really have that option at this point. Though more sports are being made available online every year. So maybe some day.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

smbaker said:


> I've been saying this for a while now. Cable is dead; TV will be moving toward a pay-per-view download model. It's ridiculous to spend $100+ per month to watch one or two channels.


It's sad that your cable company rips you off by charging that much.

My cable company's expanded basic package costs ~$70/month including taxes and fees.

If I wanted just OTA channels I could get them for $23/month or I could just use my antenna.


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## Sapphire (Sep 10, 2002)

ThAbtO said:


> Quite an impressive and unusual antenna you have there, it much have cost a pretty penny or 200.


That's nothing. Try this on for size:










16 bay UHF, 10 element VHF, low noise preamp all mounted atop a tower. From 50 miles out I have no reception issues at all. In fact for a few channels I have better reception than the cable co.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> Nope, same plan. Just:
> 1) I pay for HBO/Cinemax = +$30
> 2) I have around 11 cable cards, as many are still single stream = +$20
> 
> So that's +$50 right there. And I pay monthly for Tivo, which is virtually the same as lifetime if you replace the boxes every three years, and is ~$8/Tivo/Month, so you need to add that in as well to the total video cost per month.


HBO/Cinemax are $15 not $30. All the movie channels are $35 now which was raised from $30 just about 18 months ago.

Even if you are paying $30 and $43.89 for 11 CableCARDs that still puts you at most $150 for Cable assuming super high taxes if you take away internet and phone. I don't know where you are getting $180-$210 just for TV.

It isn't the same as lifetime. Again if you average the cost over three years, at the end of three years your price stays up, lifetime price drops significantly. This is even before you resell your Lifetime TiVo to upgrade especially now that with the upgrade offers you keep lifetime on your old TiVo.


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## werk (Feb 24, 2005)

All I know is there's more than cost in my calculations of these sort of things, and it boils down to WAF (wife acceptance factor) and the amount of babysitting I have to do to keep the system stable/up to date.

Over the years, I've had Tivo's, I've had WMC machines, I've had Satellite DVRs, I've had cableco DVRs, I've had OTA tuners. Additionally, for nearly 2 years, we had hulu/boxee/OTA/iTunes/Zune/Amazon/torrents/etc. I have to say that time was miserable as far as our TV experience went. It's a weird feeling having what seems like so many choices, then not being able to find what you're looking for. I felt like I spent more time checking various services for what we wanted to watch, switching between the HTPC/360/OTA tuner, waiting for shows to download/stream, and listening to my wife complain about the shows she couldn't see than actually watching content. And don't get me started on price-checking a movie. Is it cheaper on Zune? iTunes? Amazon? I should check all three before ordering!

iTunes/AppleTV is likely a big improvement in consolidating a lot of that in one easy-to-use package, but it's not there yet. Not all the content is there, so you'll inevitably find yourself hunting through other sources for what you want to watch. That's not entertainment...that's not relaxing. At least to me. And we only have one TV (well, only one with any sort of DVR/streaming device hooked up to it) with 25 season passes! I can't imagine managing the content for a family that has 6 TVs/Tivos! That's a full-time job!

Tivo is absolutely by no means perfect, but at least a lot of the babysitting is taken away and I don't have to think and plan so much just to watch TV. I've yet to stray from Amazon for on-demand purchases, but that's likely because I've eliminated the desire to do so by removing the HTPC and just not bothering with the 360/Zune due to the noise. 

Ideally, I'd setup another 7MC box with one of those Ceton Cablecard tuners. 7MC is stable, the interface is gorgeous, music, pictures, & video are lightyears beyond Tivo, and while not perfect, its 3rd party plugins/partners are at least better than Tivo's (Netflix). However, the upfront cost of a small, quiet box for that plus the elusive Ceton tuner isn't in the same ballpark as $150 Premiere from Electronics Expo + $199 Lifetime. I guess that's the one time it really came down to cost for me.

Finally, I think Google is onto something with GoogleTV, acting as a single front-end/index of the content available to you, but of course, lots of the big boys won't want to play, so we'll likely see the days of fragmented content providers continue.

Man, I think back to the days when we had our single tuner S2 Tivo and basic cable + HBO. Those were the days...simple and relaxing. Very little thought required (it's called the idiot box for a reason). Although watching the Saints win the superbowl in HD on a 55" LCD sure is better than watching them lose on the 17" CRT we had back then...

Sorry for the rambling...just wanted to share my experiences moving away from the classic cable/DVR formula and remind folks that there is more than cost to consider.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

Raj said:


> That's nothing. Try this on for size:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nice! is that on your property? how tall is it? either your neighbors hate you or the nearest neighbor is 3 miles away.


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## jaywtivo (Aug 29, 2004)

I only read this first page of this thread but...

Part of the appeal of having full blown Cable service with Tivo is being able to watch whatever you want, whenever you want. I don't ever want to be in the situation of wanting to see a college football game, or a baseball play off, (why do you think they are on TBS now?) or an NFL game, etc, simply because I was trying to save a few bucks a month downloading shows.

Another point about keeping cable service... Sometimes flipping around the channels, we discover new shows. It seems to me the Internet would be too vast for that. And I love my Tivo suggestions, though I don't know if I love them enough to pay for 6 boxes in my home. 

I do agree the model is going to change, forever, but it hasn't yet. And won't still for awhile. 

You could keep your video cable and reduce your DVR bill SIGNIFICANTLY by investigating the use of a 3 or 4 tuner CableCard TV tuner for your Windows 7 PC and using Windows Media Center. Do the math there. You might have the one time upfront hardware costs, but you could sell some of your Tivo's to help cover that, and after you have the hardware paid for, you don't have recurring fees. Unless you want to subscribe to Hulu and Netflix or something. 

The tuner would cost you 3-400 bucks, and of course if you would need a decent PC and extenders for any other TVs. But still, if you are paying for 6 Tivos, I think the Math might make sense for you.


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## jaywtivo (Aug 29, 2004)

AbMagFab said:


> Not sure where you get cable, but $50/month + cable cards is crazy inexpensive. And $100 for phone+Internet is crazy expensive. Perhaps you have this backwards?
> 
> My cable bill is ~$130-150 per month for video + cable cards (hard to separate all the taxes). My internet and phone are around $60/month for 30/30.
> 
> ...


By the way - with the new CableCard PC tuners, you only need 1 Cable Card. If you want six tuners, obviously, you'd need two. Could you do OTA for 2 tuners and schedule all your networks shows on those?

You could purchase a $400.00 PC Tuner, switch to Windows Media Center, and have the cost covered in 7 months.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

dlfl said:


> If it is available, I would appreciate a link. (Please do not suggest BitTorrent.)


I have a friend who lives by giganews and downloading from newsgroups.


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## jaywtivo (Aug 29, 2004)

By the way... If you are interested in the Windows Media Center solution try...

thegreenbutton.com


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

I have 3 TiVos, all lifetimed, so I don't have this high monthly cost the OP does. Plus my cable is only $61 / month, including taxes. I also enjoy the TiVo Suggestions, which I use quite a bit.

Add to this, that I've had my lifetimes for quite a lot of years now (with probably a lot more years to go), so my monthly ammortized cost of the lifetime has been quite affordable. Also, btw, one of my TiVos was lifetimed by somebody else, as I bought the box used with lifetime already on it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> I mentioned it somewhere here - I replace my Tivos roughly once every three years, historically (not by plan), so lifetime never made sense for me. Moving lifetime always adds $199. In either case, it ends up being wash.
> 
> Plus, I have three Tivo plans, that I can swap new Tivos in for, on the $6.95 forever plan. That makes lifetime even less valuable, as it means closer to 4 years for break even (at $299 lifetime).


The second paragraph is relevant.. but even if you get new Tivos every 3 years.. (Why? They have new features you need?), the lifetime GOES WITH THE TIVO, so you can sell it for more.

Even "a wash" is weighted towards lifetime as far as the resale price increase.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

mattack said:


> The second paragraph is relevant.. but even if you get new Tivos every 3 years.. (Why? They have new features you need?), the lifetime GOES WITH THE TIVO, so you can sell it for more.
> 
> Even "a wash" is weighted towards lifetime as far as the resale price increase.


This is even more true with the jump to the Premiere.

$199 for lifetime over 3 years is less than it is possible to get monthly and that doesn't even take into account what you would have gotten for TiVo HDs with lifetime.


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## DPF (Mar 20, 2003)

The main thing I've taken away from this thread is many of you get absolutely raped for cable tv.

Wow.

I thought I was getting shafted paying $103/month all-in for Cable (free HD) with HBOs and the Starz (+Encore) and middle of the road internet (10ish mb I think). Including taxes and fees.

I (heart) my cable co. I do have to admit, it's the only one I've ever heard of that lowers your rates if you've been with them for a while. My bill dropped $20/month when I added an M-card for the tivo and added HD service. Kooky.

-DPF


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## TheWGP (Oct 26, 2007)

+1 to above... my jaw is literally dropping looking at what people are paying. Here's our breakdown:

We have Ooma for home phone, so that was a one-time fee and I never pay for phone service again. Yes, it relies on the Internet, but realistically, we'll always make sure we have the Internet! 

Our Internet and cable are both from the cable company; we pay 56.91 every month including all taxes, fees, and so on. That's for digital expanded service with HD, and 3 meg down / 1 meg up internet, which is sufficient for us. We have a S2DT still running on analog for the foreseeable future (thank you smaller cable company!) and the main Tivo HD which is going to go lifetime thanks to the $99 offer in three days. So yes, we've spent a bit up front on the Tivos (and on the Ooma) but we think it pays dividends in the long run when we aren't hampered by those bills.

Honestly, some of these cable bills are just amazing. No wonder people are thinking about searching out alternative solutions!


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

AbMagFab said:


> My cable bill is ~$130-150 per month for video + cable cards (hard to separate all the taxes). My internet and phone are around $60/month for 30/30.
> 
> My 6 Tivos are around $50-60/month (no lifetime, but its a wash as I tend to replace them, historically, every 2-3 years anyway).
> 
> ...


OP is paying $50-$60 monthly fees for Tivo on top of $24 for 6 cablecards. That's nearly $84 per month he shells out before he pays for any content.

It's easy to see why iTunes would be cheaper for him. 

Personally I pay $65 for FIOS triple play - PRime package, 15/5 internet and phone which I don't use. FIOS DVR is free for 6 months. $4/month for cablecard for Premiere. Premiere was $150 plus $200 lifetime.

Anyway I think the debate is interesting, but ultimately dropping cable depends on what you watch, how much you watch, and how much you pay.

And someone made a great point earlier - you can preview alot of content with a cable subscription for no extra cost. You lose that with iTunes/Amazon.

And I do think Tivo combined with OTA and an ATV or Roku for iTunes or Amazon content along with Netflix is a good combo. Or use iTunes/Amazon along with a local channels only cable package if you can't get many channels via OTA.

IF you have Comcast then a local channels package is really only $3-$5 instead of $13-$15 because your internet will go up $10 without a cable package.


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## dstoffa (Dec 14, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> And I do think Tivo combined with OTA and an ATV or Roku for iTunes or Amazon content along with Netflix is a good combo. Or use iTunes/Amazon along with a local channels only cable package if you can't get many channels via OTA.
> 
> IF you have Comcast then a local channels package is really only $3-$5 instead of $13-$15 because your internet will go up $10 without a cable package.


Just read an article in today's paper that someone wrote a report (No, I don't know who), that cable companies will significantly raise internet rates (or charge per datum trasferred) if a significant portion of their customer base cuts video service and goes to more internet-type programming as a way to pay for the overhead involved (and to keep profits up).

It goes to show you that you must always stay on your toes to keep ahead...

Cheers!
-Doug


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

trip1eX said:


> <snip>
> And someone made a great point earlier - you can preview alot of content with a cable subscription for no extra cost. You lose that with iTunes/Amazon.
> </snip>


Actually, you can preview a lot/everything? with iTunes. I'm constantly previewing shows and movies on the AppleTV. Not sure if this is really an exception or the rule, but it's a lot more than I get with cable. And even the previewing is on-demand!


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> Actually, you can preview a lot/everything? with iTunes. I'm constantly previewing shows and movies on the AppleTV. Not sure if this is really an exception or the rule, but it's a lot more than I get with cable. And even the previewing is on-demand!


I don't know how a small preview/trailer is equal to a full episode which is what I can do with my cable. I probably add 5-10 season passes a week due to this.


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## lb3 (Feb 9, 2009)

innocentfreak said:


> I don't know how a small preview/trailer is equal to a full episode which is what I can do with my cable. I probably add 5-10 season passes a week due to this.


I agree, it's easy to make a preview/commercial for a show way better than the show/movie actually is. I wonder if more people move to the on demand/internet method, some providers will probably offer the pilot episode for free. Maybe even a couple episodes. Sort of like a drug dealer offering up the first hit for free.


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## djwilso (Dec 23, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> I don't know how a small preview/trailer is equal to a full episode which is what I can do with my cable. I probably add 5-10 season passes a week due to this.


Whoa. You seriously add 5 to 10 new season passes per week?

You have seriously tripped my BS detector. When exactly would you have time to watch all of those shows you're recording?


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

This is the oldest topic of discussion here, is TiVo worth the price? There is no single answer for everyone. I continue to spend money on TiVo and have always purchased lifetime which I think makes the most sense for me and most everybody else but it isn't inexpensive either so not everyone can justify TiVo. Whether or not satellite or cable is worth the cost compared to TiVo with OTA and internet options now available is another much more difficult question and I decided last year to go with OTA and like that choice. I do miss HDNet and HDNet Movies and a couple of channels but I prefer watching movies using Blu-ray or DVD anyway so I justify those expenses also.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

jaywtivo said:


> By the way - with the new CableCard PC tuners, you only need 1 Cable Card. If you want six tuners, obviously, you'd need two. Could you do OTA for 2 tuners and schedule all your networks shows on those?
> 
> You could purchase a $400.00 PC Tuner, switch to Windows Media Center, and have the cost covered in 7 months.


Ceton is supposed to have a six tuner model coming out sometime down the road. The bad news is that it's supposed to be available only to OEM developers in prebuilt HTPCs. They also have a dual tuner model slated for production sometime soon. I expect the dual tuner model will precede the six tuner unit. I don't expect to see either of the newer models become available until Ceton gets caught up with back orders on the current quad tuner model.

You can add up to four ATSC tuners of each type (analog, QAM or ATSC) in Media Center in the stock configuration. There's an app called Tuner Salad that will allow you to expand the number of tuners beyond the default.

My HTPC currently has the four digital tuners via the Ceton InfiniTV 4 and four ATSC tuners. I use the ATSC tuners for recording local OTA HD programs and the Ceton for recording channels from FIOS. The tuners can be shared with other TVs by using Media Extenders. Ceton has a firmware update that's in beta right now to enable tuner sharing between PCs without the need for media extenders.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Around here, Comcast charges $111 for a package with the expanded basic tier, the digital extra tier (all the extra Discovery channels, etc.), and the HBO, Showtime and Starz channels. I could downgrade to the OTA-only package. It would cost about $25 for the OTA only tier. That's a difference of $86 a month, or $1032 a year. At $50 a pop, I could buy 20 season passes from iTunes/Amazon and break even. 20 is not that many. And I'd lose out on the HBO/Showtime stuff (at least until they came out on DVD) and live sports. And wouldn't save any money, just break even.

If you don't want to pay monthly for 6 TiVos, you could buy a Mac, install iTiVo on it, download your OTA shows from a TiVo to that and then stream them to AppleTVs in each room that doesn't have a TiVo in it.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> Ceton is supposed to have a six tuner model coming out sometime down the road. The bad news is that it's supposed to be available only to OEM developers in prebuilt HTPCs. They also have a dual tuner model slated for production sometime soon. I expect the dual tuner model will precede the six tuner unit. I don't expect to see either of the newer models become available until Ceton gets caught up with back orders on the current quad tuner model.
> 
> You can add up to four ATSC tuners of each type (analog, QAM or ATSC) in Media Center in the stock configuration. There's an app called Tuner Salad that will allow you to expand the number of tuners beyond the default.
> 
> My HTPC currently has the four digital tuners via the Ceton InfiniTV 4 and four ATSC tuners. I use the ATSC tuners for recording local OTA HD programs and the Ceton for recording channels from FIOS. The tuners can be shared with other TVs by using Media Extenders. Ceton has a firmware update that's in beta right now to enable tuner sharing between PCs without the need for media extenders.


I know this probably isn't the thread for this but can you pull shows off of your HTPC for transfer to an ipod or laptop? I'm going to start doing this on a lot of my shows and I don't want to lose that ability.


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## milo99 (Oct 14, 2002)

+1 on being amazed at how much people pay for cable. Here in No VA, between Cox and FiOS there isn't too much difference between the 2 (at least in price, service there is quite a difference), but compared to other parts of the country, i'm feeling pretty good! 

What i had with Cox:
TV: all expanded basic + sports tier (no movie tiers) 
Internet: 15mbit down/5mbit up
total after taxes: $105

with FiOS i get teh same as above except with 25/15 internet for $95

and i now have lifetime on my TivoHD (got the $99 upgrade to my 3yr sub) so essentially paying $400 for that. I don't see getting rid of the TivoHD anytime soon. If i get another TV, i'd get a premiere and keep this one for whatever room is my 2nd priority, which will probably be the same 42" TV, since 1080p output isn't a big deal vs 1080i for that screen size. It works perfectly well (especially that i now no longer need that damn tuning adapter with Cox!!), so for me, it's definitely worth it compared to a cable DVR at $10-15/mo.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

dstoffa said:


> Just read an article in today's paper that someone wrote a report (No, I don't know who), that cable companies will significantly raise internet rates (or charge per datum trasferred) if a significant portion of their customer base cuts video service and goes to more internet-type programming as a way to pay for the overhead involved (and to keep profits up).
> 
> It goes to show you that you must always stay on your toes to keep ahead...
> 
> ...


Yep cable companies need to pay for their network. If the broadband business has to cover a greater portion of those costs than before then broadband customers will see price increases.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

djwilso said:


> Whoa. You seriously add 5 to 10 new season passes per week?
> 
> You have seriously tripped my BS detector. When exactly would you have time to watch all of those shows you're recording?


Yeah. I usually use thefutoncritic's calender listing of any new or returning shows added in the next week when I don't see a preview. I do this once a week.

I don't which is why I have a nice huge back log of shows saved to my home server. I pretty much have my own on demand library. I still have several episodes of Lost for example to finish.

I have KMTTG set to transfer anything past 80 hours on my TiVos to my server so it transfers before it deletes. This way I also don't transfer things I end up watching within a night or two.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

NYHeel said:


> I know this probably isn't the thread for this but can you pull shows off of your HTPC for transfer to an ipod or laptop? I'm going to start doing this on a lot of my shows and I don't want to lose that ability.


Yes. It has the same rules as TiVo. If a show isn't marked copy once, but copy freely, you can do what you want with the episode. Look at DVRMS toolbox for some of the various options you can have it automatically do to 7MC recordings.


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## trainwrecka (May 30, 2006)

I cut the cable years ago, and have sat with a lone Tivo HD since. Now I pay 6.95 a month for the Tivo service, for any OTA shows I might need to record that I can't get on my Apple TV.

You'll find you watch less TV - which is a good thing - when you only have your favorite shows to view. You don't stumble through channels looking for something to fill the time.

The random stuff that I need Tivo for are sporting events (I don't care about recording them, but instant replay is nice). Interviews of interest on shows like Nightline or 20/20 that come on once in a blue moon. For less than $100 a year it's nice to maintain the Tivo functionality, not to mention Netflix streaming.

I do log way more time on the Apple TV than the Tivo.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

lb3 said:


> I agree, it's easy to make a preview/commercial for a show way better than the show/movie actually is. I wonder if more people move to the on demand/internet method, some providers will probably offer the pilot episode for free. Maybe even a couple episodes. Sort of like a drug dealer offering up the first hit for free.


Actually, on iTunes (and I assume Amazon), many pilots for new shows are always free. For exactly this purpose.


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## AbMagFab (Feb 5, 2001)

jaywtivo said:


> By the way - with the new CableCard PC tuners, you only need 1 Cable Card. If you want six tuners, obviously, you'd need two. Could you do OTA for 2 tuners and schedule all your networks shows on those?
> 
> You could purchase a $400.00 PC Tuner, switch to Windows Media Center, and have the cost covered in 7 months.


Well, the issue there is still the client machine at each TV to view the content on the server. I was seriously considering going down this path for a while, and even had a WMC PC all configured with OTA HD only, viewing through my XB360 in my theater.

The problem is, I think the only client available now is the XB360, and it's just not that great if your main purpose is a WMC client. While I like the polish of the client, it's fairly weird to use if you primarily watch recorded TV. At least for me, and I use a lot of weird devices.


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## porsche944 (Apr 9, 2007)

All this talk of buying shows from iTunes, or building your own DVR. Of course, you can also just hook your PC up to your TV and watch nearly every network show, streaming, for FREE at the networks' websites, no iTunes needed, no capture card needed. Even some cable-only networks offer free shows on line.

BTW, if you're going to compare the cost of a high-end HD capture card to a Tivo with lifetime, you really have to add in the price of the PC too, don't you? Suddenly, the Tivo becomes a lot more competitive, doesn't it?

Last, I have FIOS triple play, and pay $95 + taxes, boxes, and cards, no contract, about $120 total with two cards and one box (plus I get three free converter boxes for my older TVs). So, let's say I'm paying less than $50 for TV, family cable, better than basic but no premium movies. Roughly twice a year I can get all the movie packages free as a trial (was for one month, now it's for three months!). I Tivo all the movies I'm interested in (they don't change very often), so, effectively, I get ALL the movie channels free forever, thanks to my Tivo.

Also, if I were to cancel my TV, I'd lose my bundle discount which would negate half of my savings. I'd still need broadband. Renting one single TV show (no movies, just TV shows) once per day on iTunes would be more expensive than what I'm paying now.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

porsche944 said:


> BTW, if you're going to compare the cost of a high-end HD capture card to a Tivo with lifetime, you really have to add in the price of the PC too, don't you? Suddenly, the Tivo becomes a lot more competitive, doesn't it?


Yes you do and we have gone over it in many threads. It is just about even. The InfiniTV 4 is 4 tuners so you would need two TiVos with lifetime for a true comparison. If you buy those from EE and with the PLSR code, you are paying around $475 currently per lifetime Premiere. This gives you $950 for a PC with the InfiniTV4. The Ceton card runs you $400 leaving you $550 for a HTPC. For $550 you can build a pretty good HTPC.


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## porsche944 (Apr 9, 2007)

innocentfreak said:


> Yes you do and we have gone over it in many threads. It is just about even. The InfiniTV 4 is 4 tuners so you would need two TiVos with lifetime for a true comparison. If you buy those from EE and with the PLSR code, you are paying around $475 currently per lifetime Premiere. This gives you $950 for a PC with the InfiniTV4. The Ceton card runs you $400 leaving you $550 for a HTPC. For $550 you can build a pretty good HTPC.


In all fairness, that's not quite an even comparison. The HTPC + tuner card is more like one and a half Tivos. With two Tivos, two people can watch two different shows in different rooms on different TVs at the same time. To make the comparison even, you'd have to throw in the cost of a second PC ( no additional tuner needed, of course), or, if not a PC, at least the cost of an XBOX 360, or some other media center extender.

On the other hand, as cool as Tivo is, you can do a lot more things with the PC than you can with the Tivo.

All quibbling aside, I do think the Ceton card, while pricey, sounds very cool and I'd love to try one. I'm curious. What is the Windows 7 media center experience like compared to Tivo? (program guide, season passes, etc., etc.?) Also, how portable are the files? Is it easy to burn DVDs (SD or HD) of your shows, send stuff to your phone or tablet, etc., or are you fighting a losing battle with DRM? Is the Ceton card compatible with any other third party software besides Windows media center?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

porsche944 said:


> All quibbling aside, I do think the Ceton card, while pricey, sounds very cool and I'd love to try one. I'm curious. What is the Windows 7 media center experience like compared to Tivo? (program guide, season passes, etc., etc.?) Also, how portable are the files? Is it easy to burn DVDs (SD or HD) of your shows, send stuff to your phone or tablet, etc., or are you fighting a losing battle with DRM? Is the Ceton card compatible with any other third party software besides Windows media center?


http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/05/tivo-premiere-vs-windows-7-media-center/

There is also a decent thread on here discussing it if you search.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

orangeboy said:


> While I agree with the sentiment about spending a bunch of money per month for just a few channels that are viewed, I'm thinking a pay-per-view model will end up costing much, much more in the end, unless those offerings are in the range of pennies per view, and not dollars, as they are now.


By far most of the content I record for the server is from HBOHD, ShowtimeHD, EncoreHD, MGMHD, TCMHD, UHD, MaxHD, and PBSHD, to the tune of about 60 movies per month. I think you'll find the cost of 60 Blu-Ray purchases a month to be more than my CATV bill.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

porsche944 said:


> In all fairness, that's not quite an even comparison. The HTPC + tuner card is more like one and a half Tivos. With two Tivos, two people can watch two different shows in different rooms on different TVs at the same time. To make the comparison even, you'd have to throw in the cost of a second PC ( no additional tuner needed, of course), or, if not a PC, at least the cost of an XBOX 360, or some other media center extender.
> 
> On the other hand, as cool as Tivo is, you can do a lot more things with the PC than you can with the Tivo.
> 
> All quibbling aside, I do think the Ceton card, while pricey, sounds very cool and I'd love to try one. I'm curious. What is the Windows 7 media center experience like compared to Tivo? (program guide, season passes, etc., etc.?) Also, how portable are the files? Is it easy to burn DVDs (SD or HD) of your shows, send stuff to your phone or tablet, etc., or are you fighting a losing battle with DRM? Is the Ceton card compatible with any other third party software besides Windows media center?


With a little savvy shopping you can pick up a Linksys DMA2100 or 2200 media extender on ebay for less than $100. Another option is the HP x280n. Other than that you can expect to shell out at least $200 for a new slim XBox 360 w/4GB.

Win 7 Media Center records programs in wtv format. If you highlight a wtv file and right-click you'll see an option in Windows to convert it to dvr-ms format. VideoReDo accepts dvr-ms files for editing and converting to other formats.

If you limit your comparison between a HTPC and a Tivo to just recording TV then you're missing out on a whole host of features the Tivo can't match.


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

trainwrecka said:


> ...have sat with a lone Tivo HD since. Now I pay 6.95 a month for the Tivo service...


Ummmm, $6.95/month is a multi-service discount (MSD) rate. How exactly do you have a "lone Tivo HD" and get that? You should be at (IIRC) $12.95/month. Check your billing.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

jtreid said:


> Ummmm, $6.95/month is a multi-service discount (MSD) rate. How exactly do you have a "lone Tivo HD" and get that? You should be at (IIRC) $12.95/month. Check your billing.


I had a lone Tivo and $6.95/month rate for over 5 years also. CAlled them up one day and got them to drop my rate. (thank you TivoCommunity for the tip way back when.)


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

trip1eX said:


> Yep cable companies need to pay for their network. If the broadband business has to cover a greater portion of those costs than before then broadband customers will see price increases.


AT the same time new tech has consistently allowed providers to deliver more bandwidth through the same pipe.


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## jtreid (Jan 12, 2006)

trip1eX said:


> I had a lone Tivo and $6.95/month rate for over 5 years also. CAlled them up one day and got them to drop my rate. (thank you TivoCommunity for the tip way back when.)


Well that's just great! All of us who pay the $12.95/month for our first Tivo are providing welfare for you deadbeats.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

trip1eX said:


> AT the same time new tech has consistently allowed providers to deliver more bandwidth through the same pipe.


Bandwidth increases also do not scale with the increased costs the way providers like to represent them. Several studies reported on by CNet have shown that bandwidth costs are going down, yet ISP's want more and more money and are falling back on the old you should pay for what you use mentality that doesn't work for bandwidth. There is no bandwidth shortage.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> Bandwidth increases also do not scale with the increased costs the way providers like to represent them. Several studies reported on by CNet have shown that bandwidth costs are going down, yet ISP's want more and more money and are falling back on the old you should pay for what you use mentality that doesn't work for bandwidth. There is no bandwidth shortage.


Did I miss something? Who is claiming there is one?

As a large scale network provider, I can tell you that expanding bandwidth can present any number of challenges, but none of them are overwhelming, and the wholesale prices of bandwidth (which is what we charge) are falling fairly steadily. What is going up are the numbers of headaches for those of us who deliver and maintain the transport systems, but the cost per bit per second... not so much.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

trainwrecka said:


> You'll find you watch less TV - which is a good thing - when you only have your favorite shows to view.


With the exception of a number of PBS series, if I had OTA, I would not watch any TV at all.



trainwrecka said:


> You don't stumble through channels looking for something to fill the time.


You have a TiVo. Why would you ever stumble through channels for any reason? I haven't looked at a guide or stumbled through any channels at all for 10 years.



trainwrecka said:


> The random stuff that I need Tivo for are sporting events


It's been far more than 10 years since I watched a sporting event. Mostly, I watch movies. I haven't had much chance to watch very much TV at all the last few weeks, but I did watch a couple of movies last night, and I'm going to try to watch a couple today. I'm off Monday, so I'm going to watch a couple then, too, if I get the chance.



trainwrecka said:


> I do log way more time on the Apple TV than the Tivo.


I spend more time reading than watching TV. So what?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

In defense of the OP, TiVo doesn't make sense if you do the math. Not for the reasons stated, but just because he has 6 TiVos. 

$12.95 for the first, then $9.95 for the other five? $62.70/mo for TiVo is nuts to me...


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> In defense of the OP, TiVo doesn't make sense if you do the math. Not for the reasons stated, but just because he has 6 TiVos.
> 
> $12.95 for the first, then $9.95 for the other five? $62.70/mo for TiVo is nuts to me...


Of course it is nuts but so is paying monthly while saying it is the same as buying lifetime.

$62.70 is still less than it would cost me to rent 6 HD DVRs from Verizon.


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## SpyderGST (Nov 10, 2006)

innocentfreak said:


> $62.70 is still less than it would cost me to rent 6 HD DVRs from Verizon.


But if the Verizon DVR has as horrid an interface as the Comcast one I used for 3 months, I would gladly pay to get a tivo interface and reliability.


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## deerhunter1 (Jul 29, 2007)

dlfl said:


> Really? Every show is available within 24 hrs of broadcast?
> 
> I can't find any episodes of this season's "Big Bang Theory" on either Amazon or iTunes. My local channel skipped one episode so they could show Gubernatorial candidates spouting their nonsense, and I haven't found a way to either TiVo it or buy it anywhere.
> 
> If it is available, I would appreciate a link. (Please do not suggest BitTorrent.)


Try at thebigbangtheory-episodes.com

I just watched one without a login ID but the picture was only slightly larger than a Archos or similar screen (~ 5" diagonally). Registering with the site would likely yield a larger size picture frame. Good Luck!

deerhunter1

p.s. best sitcom on TV!!!


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

innocentfreak said:


> This just says you don't watch as much TV as you think you do. Looking on the  At 4 weekly shows every month for the entire year which is extremely easy to do assuming you could rent each one for $.99, you are looking at $16




Some shows are free, that really changes the math: free podcast downloads of "Mad Money" and "Fast Money" which both have an ad at the beginning. I believe the "Suze Orman Show" is also free. "Biggest Loser" is free; it ran over time, I missed the ending of the show and just went to whatever network it is on, fast forwarded to the end and finished watching the show.

I just started a free month of NetFlix. Basically two business day turnaround so far means about 10 movies per month. My queue is currently under 10 movies and one movie does not come out for two weeks.

Both of these are big threats to Tivo and cable companies.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Some shows are free, that really changes the math: free podcast downloads of "Mad Money" and "Fast Money" which both have an ad at the beginning. I believe the "Suze Orman Show" is also free. "Biggest Loser" is free; it ran over time, I missed the ending of the show and just went to whatever network it is on, fast forwarded to the end and finished watching the show.
> 
> I just started a free month of NetFlix. Basically two business day turnaround so far means about 10 movies per month. My queue is currently under 10 movies and one movie does not come out for two weeks.
> 
> Both of these are big threats to Tivo and cable companies.


Convenience vs money is aways the issue, each person must do his/her own calculation as there is no correct answer, I have two land phone lines + two cell phones in my home (one for my wife), many people are giving up the land lines, and just using their cell phones, would i save money without any land lines, ya sure, about $50-$60/ month but I have them for my convenience, at $1000/month I would give them up in a NY second. So the same goes for TiVo, my family finds it convenient to use TiVos at the current cost, before TiVo and MRV we used VCRs (all VCR have MRV built in). I don't think anybody can blog a definite answer as to TiVo making no sense for all people/families. If or when TiVo stops making sense to enough people TiVo will go the way of the 8 track tape players. Look how long it took AOL to die out with their phone Internet service as DSL and cable Internet (with WiFi for the home) became available, change will happen, but not overnight. Prediction of that change timetable is a fools game.


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## Series3Sub (Mar 14, 2010)

Adam1115 said:


> In defense of the OP, TiVo doesn't make sense if you do the math. Not for the reasons stated, but just because he has 6 TiVos.
> 
> $12.95 for the first, then $9.95 for the other five? $62.70/mo for TiVo is nuts to me...


And this is why a lot of people choose the crap cable co DVR's because no major initial investment with competitive monthly charge. Also, if one splurges for a Moxi, one can get streaming multi-room. With DirecTV, its simple DVR (uglier interface compared to TiVo) also provides streaming multi-room, and for less money than the TiVo and its "transfer" multi-room solution.

It's not 1999 anymore. The TiVo product and service are not nearly as competitive as it needs to be with today's competition.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

lessd said:


> Convenience vs money is aways the issue, each person must do his/her own calculation as there is no correct answer, I have two land phone lines + two cell phones in my home (one for my wife), many people are giving up the land lines, and just using their cell phones, would i save money without any land lines, ya sure, about $50-$60/ month but I have them for my convenience, at $1000/month I would give them up in a NY second.


$50 per month is $600 per year, $6000 over 10 years. I don't know how old you are but lets say you have 20 years until retirement then we are talking about $12,000 plus 3.5% return if invested in a dividend paying ETF which would wind up as $17,434. If you and your wife cut your cell phone bill by $50 each per month, there is $17,434 times two or $34,869.

BTW, the land line businesses of VZ and T help them pay my very nice 6% dividend yield so, full disclosure here I should be suggesting a third land line for you. I just cut all the extra bells and whistles on my land line and my bill is now under $40 per month. Will probably cut the cord completely next year.

As far as convenience, I turn on my notebook, start up iTunes and all podcasts that I am missing download automatically. I can then sync them with my iPod and watch the episodes anywhere. I find this very convenient.

As long as you are on target to have $1.5 million in your retirement fund by the time you retire, $17,434 here, $34,869 there won't matter. If you are not on target then apply this kind of logic.

The above logic was used by Suze Orman to cut $1,000 per month from a couples budget to help them out of credit card debt. Suze got down to the minutiae of cutting $4 per month for the Sunday paper. After paying off the credit cards, they could save $1,000 month for awhile which would be $12,000 per year, $120,000 over ten years and with interest more than a quarter of a million in twenty years.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

chicagobrownblue said:


> $50 per month is $600 per year, $6000 over 10 years. I don't know how old you are but lets say you have 20 years until retirement then we are talking about $12,000 plus 3.5% return if invested in a dividend paying ETF which would wind up as $17,434. If you and your wife cut your cell phone bill by $50 each per month, there is $17,434 times two or $34,869.
> 
> BTW, the land line businesses of VZ and T help them pay my very nice 6% dividend yield so, full disclosure here I should be suggesting a third land line for you. I just cut all the extra bells and whistles on my land line and my bill is now under $40 per month. Will probably cut the cord completely next year.
> 
> ...


I have been retired for many years so you are correct that some people have to cut back, but the need to cut back (and save) is different for different people, I purchase an expensive new car every 9 to 10 years, some people purchase a less expensive new car every 2 or 3 years, (I just turned in a 2001 BMW X5 at 10.5 years old for a new custom Hybrid Lexus RX that will take me 3 months to get) that is the great thing in the USA as we can all make our own decision on how to spend our money and what to spend it on, if anything, some people are better at controlling their own money than others. If I needed the extra $50/month that my land line phones cost i would take them out; as for me, it's my kids that are paying for my phones (and my lifestyle) but they don't know it as they will inherent less money when my wife and I expire.


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## Marconi (Sep 8, 2001)

AbMagFab said:


> So... I finally sat down and went through every season pass on my 6 Tivos. I then went to iTunes, and priced out what a season for each show costs.
> 
> Then I took the video portion of my cable bill, added the cost of the Tivos, and guess what?


You're paying too much for cable? Do you pay a premium for HD?



AbMagFab said:


> *It's cheaper to buy every single show from iTunes than to pay for cable and Tivo.*


I'd like to see the numbers. Got a spreadsheet or some such?



AbMagFab said:


> *And it's way cheaper - over $1000 cheaper a year.* And it gets even cheaper if the iTunes rental model ever kicks in fully enough to be useful across more stations. And I didn't even factor in the up-front cost of the Tivo boxes.


Really would like to see the numbers.



AbMagFab said:


> And I (and my family) watch a ton of TV, more than most.


We don't measure our TV watching by the ton. We use hours.



AbMagFab said:


> Has anyone else actually done this exercise to see how much money you're wasting paying for cable and Tivo?


If you began the exercise expecting to find this result, it's not surprising that you did. May we see the numbers?



AbMagFab said:


> I'm now moving towards getting rid of cable a piece at a time, then getting rid of all my Tivos.


If it makes sense for you, then by all means, do so.



AbMagFab said:


> The more I dig into this, the more it seems absurd that millions of people are all recording the same show on millions of hard drives, when the show is already in iTunes (or Amazon) waiting to be streamed to us, whenever we want.
> 
> What am I missing?


As others have pointed out, not all of us get OTA TV. I'm curious to know what you do for news and sports. Are these available streamed from anywhere? Or are these, perhaps, what you're missing?

My Two THDs each have around a hundred Season Passes. Basically, we record three hours of prime-time TV for each of the four major networks each night. When shows are doing summer reruns, there are typically replacement shows to watch instead. We also watch a lot on SyFy, TCM, AMC, Fox Movie channel, TNT, etc. I suspect that we watch a lot that's not available through iTunes and others.

Then there's the fact that my Internet is not the most reliable. Streaming is not the way I want to go. I'd rather have the entire show downloaded before I begin watching.

I saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. On-demand, streamed shows will eventually eclipse the current cable model. We're suckers if we let it happen though. Once it's an all streaming model, you'll HAVE to sit through commercials. Personally, I'd rather have the commercials and be able to hurtle through them with TiVo's fast-forward than have to sit through them. I really, really dislike commercials.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

lessd said:


> I have been retired for many years so you are correct that some people have to cut back, but the need to cut back (and save) is different for different people, I purchase an expensive new car every 9 to 10 years, some people purchase a less expensive new car every 2 or 3 years, (I just turned in a 2001 BMW X5 at 10.5 years old for a new custom Hybrid Lexus RX that will take me 3 months to get) that is the great thing in the USA as we can all make our own decision on how to spend our money and what to spend it on, if anything, some people are better at controlling their own money than others.


I'm fine with people buying any car they want and that they can comfortably afford. The fact that you keep your car 10.5 years tells me that you are smart with your money. Hopefully you paid cash or financed the cars. I do go on a tear when people try to convince me that leasing can be better....



lessd said:


> If I needed the extra $50/month that my land line phones cost i would take them out; as for me, it's my kids that are paying for my phones (and my lifestyle) but they don't know it as they will inherent less money when my wife and I expire.


I always try to point out to people money they may be wasting. I was starting to get to your $1,000/month with three $50/month suggestions -- which sounds like it would be more instructive to others than to you. Two cell phones and two land lines at home seems to be a lot for two people.


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## JimboG (May 27, 2007)

chicagobrownblue said:


> I'm fine with people buying any car they want and that they can comfortably afford. The fact that you keep your car 10.5 years tells me that you are smart with your money. Hopefully you paid cash or financed the cars. I do go on a tear when people try to convince me that leasing can be better....


A year ago I would have agreed with you. However, the tax treatment of leasing a Prius through my wife's practice was quite favorable. If you own your own business, leasing a car through the business can be a good move.

Now leasing a brand new car every year or two as an individual seems pretty dumb.


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

My wishlists often find programs that I didn't know about. I don't see how I am supposed to go download shows from iTunes that I don't know exist. Maybe I could search on the same keywords that are in my TiVo wishlists, but the whole point of having a TiVo is that the TiVo does that work for me. It's a service. As far as I'm concerned, I get good value for the service.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

chicagobrownblue said:


> I'm fine with people buying any car they want and that they can comfortably afford. The fact that you keep your car 10.5 years tells me that you are smart with your money. Hopefully you paid cash or financed the cars. I do go on a tear when people try to convince me that leasing can be better....


I would never lease any car unless i could put it against a business, as I run no business I purchase for cash as free money earns me only about 0.12% but the interest tax free. (when i refer to free money its money i need to pay expenses and can't be used for investment, it is just in a money market account)


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## lesley8471 (May 5, 2007)

I ditched cable for a while and went strictly OTA (using EyeTV) and online (Hulu, etc.) and Netflix. I paid for a few season passes on itunes for other shows. I liked it, but my husband revolted because he couldn't get Food Network, Cooking Network and BBC. 

I hate how much I'm paying for cable, but with Tivo now, I love that I can record tons of hours of Food Network and transfer to an iphone/computer for my husband to watch while he's living on airplanes. We don't have any other "entertainment" costs, so it works for us. And, if my husband wants to do any Comcast "on demand" shows, he can walk two feet into the office and do Comcast on demand on my mac mini that is hooked up to a 30" old TV screen.

I did try the Comcast DVR for almost a year. Sucked so much. Even the Comcast installer who had to come out to do the cablecard installation agreed with me.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

lesley8471 said:


> I liked it, but my *husband* revolted because he couldn't get *Food Network, Cooking Network*


We know who wears the pants in that family.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> In defense of the OP, TiVo doesn't make sense if you do the math. Not for the reasons stated, but just because he has 6 TiVos.
> 
> $12.95 for the first, then $9.95 for the other five? $62.70/mo for TiVo is nuts to me...


As opposed to $19.95 for the first POS TWC DVR and $9.95 for each additional? Even on month-to-month, TiVo is cheaper, and with three lifetimes, the youngest of which is 2 years old, I'm pretty far ahead, even though I paid $800 for my first S3 TiVo and $1000 for my second. Add to that the fact $2000 is a positively paltry outlay compared to the constant torture of dealing with an SA 8300HD, and then add on top of that all the absolutely essential things I do with my TiVos that the leased DVR won't even start to do, and the TiVo comes up far, far cheaper.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

chicagobrownblue said:


> BTW, the land line businesses of VZ and T help them pay my very nice 6% dividend yield so, full disclosure here I should be suggesting a third land line for you. I just cut all the extra bells and whistles on my land line and my bill is now under $40 per month. Will probably cut the cord completely next year.


I have Vonage at $25 / month. My company pays for my cell phone.



chicagobrownblue said:


> The above logic was used by Suze Orman to cut $1,000 per month from a couples budget to help them out of credit card debt.


I don't have much credit card debt.



chicagobrownblue said:


> Suze got down to the minutiae of cutting $4 per month for the Sunday paper.


I don't take a paper.



lessd said:


> I have been retired for many years so you are correct that some people have to cut back, but the need to cut back (and save) is different for different people, I purchase an expensive new car every 9 to 10 years, some people purchase a less expensive new car every 2 or 3 years


I purchase the least expensive car that meets my needs and use it until it is destroyed.



lessd said:


> (I just turned in a 2001 BMW X5 at 10.5 years old for a new custom Hybrid Lexus RX that will take me 3 months to get) that is the great thing in the USA as we can all make our own decision on how to spend our money and what to spend it on, if anything, some people are better at controlling their own money than others. If I needed the extra $50/month that my land line phones cost i would take them out; as for me, it's my kids that are paying for my phones (and my lifestyle) but they don't know it as they will inherent less money when my wife and I expire.


I don't have any kids. I drive a 9 year old Camaro convertible with 60,000 miles on it. I bought it used. My company pays for the vehicle I drive to work and back. Because it is a "special duty" vehicle, not deemed suitable for ordinary transport, I don't pay a tax premium for it.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> As opposed to $19.95 for the first POS TWC DVR and $9.95 for each additional? Even on month-to-month, TiVo is cheaper, and with three lifetimes, the youngest of which is 2 years old, I'm pretty far ahead, even though I paid $800 for my first S3 TiVo and $1000 for my second. Add to that the fact $2000 is a positively paltry outlay compared to the constant torture of dealing with an SA 8300HD, and then add on top of that all the absolutely essential things I do with my TiVos that the leased DVR won't even start to do, and the TiVo comes up far, far cheaper.


My DVR through directv costs nothing.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> My DVR through directv costs nothing.


Unless you only have one receiver, you are at least paying the $5 or whatever they charge now per additional receiver per month. You might still have the DVR fee grandfathered, but that is no longer an option.

Of course DirecTV is extremely expensive also so I will take my TiVos which cost along with the monthly savings from dumping DirecTV, around $90 a month, compared to not paying for a DVR which limits me on how many shows I can have passes for.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> Unless you only have one receiver, you are at least paying the $5 or whatever they charge now per additional receiver per month. You might still have the DVR fee grandfathered, but that is no longer an option.
> 
> Of course DirecTV is extremely expensive also so I will take my TiVos which cost along with the monthly savings from dumping DirecTV, around $90 a month, compared to not paying for a DVR which limits me on how many shows I can have passes for.


And cable charges for cable cards, additional outlets, etc.

What I said stands, my DVR is free. It does look like new subs pay $7/mo, but there is a $5/mo credit against it for a year.

And DirecTV is NOT $90/mo. Not sure what you're comparing to, but I pay a lot less to directv than to cable. The person I responded to reported paying $20/mo for their DVR...


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Adam1115 said:


> And cable charges for cable cards, additional outlets, etc.
> 
> What I said stands, my DVR is free. It does look like new subs pay $7/mo, but there is a $5/mo credit against it for a year.
> 
> And DirecTV is NOT $90/mo. Not sure what you're comparing to, but I pay a lot less to directv than to cable. The person I responded to reported paying $20/mo for their DVR...


Some only charge for Cable Cards which in my case is $3.99 which is on the high end, but it is still less than the per month receiver fee DirecTV charges even before you add the DVR service fee.

I never said Directv is $90 a month. This is the amount I save per month by not having DirecTV and going with FiOS instead. DirecTV cost me $150 a month for just SD TV when I had it. I now pay FiOS $150 a month which includes phone, internet, and HD TV. I already covered the cost of my lifetime TiVos in the first year on the savings alone. This would have been a wipe anyway since I would have had to pay to lease upgraded hardware from DirecTV to get HD.


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

Hm. Just found this thread. Food for thought. I can ditch everything but basic service on FIOS (which gives a few channels that I can't get OTA) and get most of my cable shows through Amazon. And it looks like it would save me over $400 a year. The only hole it leaves is a big one, though -- no access to Food Network... Still, food for thought...


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> Some only charge for Cable Cards which in my case is $3.99 which is on the high end, but it is still less than the per month receiver fee DirecTV charges even before you add the DVR service fee.


That's hardly the high end. My father's cable company charges him $6.95 per month for each cable card and he has 1 for each of his 3 TiVos.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> Some only charge for Cable Cards which in my case is $3.99 which is on the high end, but it is still less than the per month receiver fee DirecTV charges even before you add the DVR service fee.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to argue. I signed up for DirecTV last November. My DVR was free, it has never had a monthly fee.

That's all I was saying.... I had a series 3 with Comcast, I'm saving a ton of money.

A second DVR? Yea, you'd have to pay that $4-$6 a month to the cable company, plus what, $10/mo for TiVo if you don't get a leased model? I'd pay $5.


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> I'm not sure what point you're trying to argue. I signed up for DirecTV last November. My DVR was free, it has never had a monthly fee.
> 
> That's all I was saying.... I had a series 3 with Comcast, I'm saving a ton of money.
> 
> A second DVR? Yea, you'd have to pay that $4-$6 a month to the cable company, plus what, $10/mo for TiVo if you don't get a leased model? I'd pay $5.


How the hell did you get a DirecTV DVR for free with no monthly fee? I paid $199 to get mine, had to pay a $13.00 a month fee, and in the end when I cancelled I was told that I was "renting" the DVR and the $199.99 was a "leasing fee."


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

Quick Math on my end. I have roughly 60 Season passes. 
Half of those I could easily live without. 

So I have roughly 30 shows I want to watch or must watch.
Lets assume on average 10 of those shows have 13 episodes. The other 20 have 26 episodes.

650 episodes. So I am going to round up. 700.

My current bill is $160/m. (Which after promos will jump to $200 in 3/2011)
This includes TV, Internet, phone.

$100/m is TV porition. (HBO/SHowtime & TV HD package via Verizon)

So in a year it costs me $1200 a year for TV + Tivo ($200/yr). Low estimate since my rate will jump for Internet/Phone once I drop TV. 


So rounded up $1500 in TV costs.
My TV shows assuming available would be $700. 

Now I would lose Sports, New shows, cooking shows, etc... And I didn't factor in any of my wifes shows.

Sure I could save a few hundred no doubt but the TV is worst case scenario numbers. I can make the Cable vs itunes fairly close by cutting deals and promotions. And losing sports is a big one for me. 

Point is I am sticking with Cable for awhile longer. But surely not tied to it like I was in the past.


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

I went OTA this past summer and still watch 90&#37; of what I use to watch when I had cable. I was able to stream ESPN3 to my TV to catch several college football games that weren't airing on locals, quality was actually pretty good. I'm still waiting for U-Verse to become available in my area. When it does I'll have a hard decision to stay OTA or switch to it.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

plazman30 said:


> How the hell did you get a DirecTV DVR for free with no monthly fee? I paid $199 to get mine, had to pay a $13.00 a month fee, and in the end when I cancelled I was told that I was "renting" the DVR and the $199.99 was a "leasing fee."


Went to directv.com, clicked order service.

It's still free now, but you pay $2/mo for DVR then $7/mo after the first year.


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## donnoh (Mar 7, 2008)

brettatk said:


> I went OTA this past summer and still watch 90% of what I use to watch when I had cable. I was able to stream ESPN3 to my TV to catch several college football games that weren't airing on locals, quality was actually pretty good. I'm still waiting for U-Verse to become available in my area. When it does I'll have a hard decision to stay OTA or switch to it.


U-Verse became available in my neighborhood this past spring. I wouldn't get too woo-hoo'd over it, it wasn't that good of a deal compared to Charter where I live. When I called Charter and told them about the deal they had offered they undercut the price.

When I got my latest Premiere a few months ago, I asked the Charter installer about it and he told me a lot of people were getting it installed and cancelling the next day or so because they wired your whole house with Cat5 and had a 30 day cancellation policy. Pretty crappy if you ask me, but people never surprise me anymore.


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## brettatk (Oct 11, 2002)

Charter could be giving away cable and I still wouldn't consider going back to them.


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## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

So are we at the point of being able to ditch cable fees and Tivo service and still get all of our shows as PPV? I don't like watching TV on my computer so what gadgets do I need to switch over to PPV? I have the new Apple TV which is fine. But where do I get Fringe (again, onto my TV), SG:U, Burn Notice, and reruns of the simpsons?


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

dtivouser said:


> So are we at the point of being able to ditch cable fees and Tivo service and still get all of our shows as PPV? I don't like watching TV on my computer so what gadgets do I need to switch over to PPV? I have the new Apple TV which is fine. But where do I get Fringe (again, onto my TV), SG:U, Burn Notice, and reruns of the simpsons?


boxee box and playon will cover 99% of the stuff out there. or build an HTPC.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

As pointed out in various responses, there are several issues here and no single solution that fits everyone. I would probably go with over-the-air if I lived near a large urban area. I don't so I need either cable, Dish, or DirecTV to get much of anything. I have cable which packages a lot of junk channels. It would be nice to have an ala carte selection. Also, the cable company provides the internet connection so I suspect that if we end up with an internet driven TV someday that the cost of internet will go up to cover the loss of revenue. Now if I could just find a neighbor who has an unsecured wireless....


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## Revolutionary (Dec 1, 2004)

lillevig said:


> As pointed out in various responses, there are several issues here and no single solution that fits everyone. I would probably go with over-the-air if I lived near a large urban area. I don't so I need either cable, Dish, or DirecTV to get much of anything. I have cable which packages a lot of junk channels. It would be nice to have an ala carte selection. Also, the cable company provides the internet connection so I suspect that if we end up with an internet driven TV someday that the cost of internet will go up to cover the loss of revenue. Now if I could just find a neighbor who has an unsecured wireless....


Yeah -- for some fully "cutting the cord" might make sense (to include losing the Tivo service). For me, local basic service is a mere $16/mo (includes cable card), and there is no antenna hassle (although my house, which I only bought a few months ago, does have a giant 12 foot antenna in the attic). So I can use my Tivo with simple cable and Amazon VOD downloads. If you want to cut even the Tivo service, you need to get new hardware, which will amortize to at least $8.25/mo for the first year ($99 -- the cost of a new Roku box or Apple TV).

The biggest loss for me is ESPN. I'm not sure I can get along without it. No MNF?? That may be my choking point. I have to ask myself -- are Food Network and ESPN worth $400 a year ($33/mo)? When I quantify it like that, the logical answer is no. But the emotional answer is "apparently."


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## sathead (Jan 12, 2008)

dtivouser said:


> I have the new Apple TV which is fine. But where do I get Fringe (again, onto my TV), SG:U, Burn Notice, and reruns of the simpsons?


A $10/month unlimited usenet account and a $100 media player like the PopBox


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

NatasNJ said:


> Quick Math on my end. I have roughly 60 Season passes.


Why do people keep talking about Season Passes as if they are all that is to be considered? Only a fairly small fraction of the shows I watch are recorded from Season Passes. Wishlists, Suggestions, and specific recordings make up the bulk of what I watch. Up to 150 programs a month - mostly movies - get archived to my server. Although I do record a large number of series, the programs recorded by Season Passes are most definitely the first thing I could easily give up.



NatasNJ said:


> Half of those I could easily live without.


I could easily live without TV altogether, and so could anyone else. With the exception of news and educational programming, TV is a luxury.



NatasNJ said:


> So I have roughly 30 shows I want to watch or must watch.
> Lets assume on average 10 of those shows have 13 episodes. The other 20 have 26 episodes.


I record a great deal more than I watch. It would be silly not to do so. After all, it costs me nothing to record stuff.



NatasNJ said:


> So rounded up $1500 in TV costs.
> My TV shows assuming available would be $700.
> 
> Now I would lose Sports, New shows, cooking shows, etc... And I didn't factor in any of my wifes shows.
> ...


Purchasing upwards of 500 BluRay disks a year would cost a great deal more than I pay now.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

You can't get Mythbusters in HD without cable/satellite.

TiVo, however, makes no sense, as the Comcast/Xfinity DVR is $7/mo instead of $500 for the TiVo Premiere with no monthly fee (and that's for an existing customer who would get the TiVo service for $200 not the normal $400).


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

You are lucky if you can even get an SD box in my area for $7.


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## plazman30 (Jan 23, 2005)

Bigg said:


> You can't get Mythbusters in HD without cable/satellite.
> 
> TiVo, however, makes no sense, as the Comcast/Xfinity DVR is $7/mo instead of $500 for the TiVo Premiere with no monthly fee (and that's for an existing customer who would get the TiVo service for $200 not the normal $400).


How is the XFinity DVR? Is it better than the old Comcast DVR? Because the software on that was awful.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

plazman30 said:


> How is the XFinity DVR? Is it better than the old Comcast DVR? Because the software on that was awful.


It's pretty good. I posted a thread about it like two hours ago with detail. If you have specific questions, feel free to post in that one and I'll respond.

FYI, it's $15/mo for the HD DVR, but the HD is $8 or so of that fee...


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Bigg said:


> It's pretty good. I posted a thread about it like two hours ago with detail. If you have specific questions, feel free to post in that one and I'll respond.
> 
> FYI, it's $15/mo for the HD DVR, but the HD is $8 or so of that fee...


You still have to pay the $8 so comparing TiVo to a $7 per month fee isn't correct then. You should be looking at it from a $15 per month compared to the cost of TiVo.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

innocentfreak said:


> You still have to pay the $8 so comparing TiVo to a $7 per month fee isn't correct then. You should be looking at it from a $15 per month compared to the cost of TiVo.


You'd still have to pay the $8 to have HD channels through cablecards.


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## mattphelps (Dec 27, 2010)

AbMagFab said:


> So... I finally sat down and went through every season pass on my 6 Tivos. I then went to iTunes, and priced out what a season for each show costs.
> 
> Then I took the video portion of my cable bill, added the cost of the Tivos, and guess what?
> 
> ...


You are missing a lot of cable channels you don't usually watch. If you are targeting watching only the shows that you want, then it is advisable just to get it by show but for people who wants to have more channels to choose from, its different.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Bigg said:


> You'd still have to pay the $8 to have HD channels through cablecards.


The first CableCARD is no charge with Comcast as it's included with the digital service charge and you only need one CableCARD for the HD or Premier TiVo's. Comcast does charge $1.75 for a second CableCARD for the original Series 3 TiVo (which is what we have).

Scott


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

HerronScott said:


> The first CableCARD is no charge with Comcast as it's included with the digital service charge and you only need one CableCARD for the HD or Premier TiVo's. Comcast does charge $1.75 for a second CableCARD for the original Series 3 TiVo (which is what we have).
> 
> Scott


I'm pretty sure you'd still have to pay a fee to get HD channels. You could do that and save $15/mo, but you wouldn't have any HD channels.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Everybody has a different situation both with their own finances and with the cable co that they get service from, one size does not fit all, I am sure for some TiVo makes no sense, given TiVo general stand alone penetration many people either don't know about TiVo, or don't want the hassle that goes with TiVo and cable cards and choose the cable co. DVR, or use other means to watch TV. I don't think anybody will come up with an answer that fits all.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Bigg said:


> I'm pretty sure you'd still have to pay a fee to get HD channels. You could do that and save $15/mo, but you wouldn't have any HD channels.


No extra fees for HD. You get that as a part of the Digital packages (Starter, Preferred with 1 Premium, Preferred with 2 Premium, etc.).

We have Preferred with 1 Premium (HBO) and only pay for the package, the 2nd CableCARD for our original Series 3 and our Internet service.

Scott


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Bigg said:


> I'm pretty sure you'd still have to pay a fee to get HD channels. You could do that and save $15/mo, but you wouldn't have any HD channels.


Some Comcast reps will tell you that but they are incorrect. The last time they tried to tack on that extra HD charge, I told them to remove it. They warned me that I'd not get HD and I told that that I'd risk it (knowing the outcome). I get HD channels on both of my TiVo HDs.

Here is my latest charge from Comcast:



> Tivo3 Cable Card Pkg 12/08 - 01/07 3.00
> Qty 2 @ $1.50 each
> 
> B1 Cablecard 12/08 - 01/07 0.00
> ...


_I've got another 18 months with the $159.99 "bundle" at which time I'll decide if I'll kiss Comcast goodbye.
_


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## JPS10 (Nov 26, 2010)

Beryl,

What part of the country are you in? Do you get some HD channels or all the channels you would expect to get by paying the HD fee?


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Beryl said:


> Some Comcast reps will tell you that but they are incorrect. The last time they tried to tack on that extra HD charge, I told them to remove it. They warned me that I'd not get HD and I told that that I'd risk it (knowing the outcome). I get HD channels on both of my TiVo HDs.
> 
> Here is my latest charge from Comcast:
> 
> ...


Iiiiiinteresting. Sounds like they are charging for the box then, not the content. For a while there was another $8.70 HD fee, I thought that was the other part of what they are billing for the DVR?


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