# Game Of Thrones S7E1 - Dragonstone - Spoilers allowed.



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

...and we're off to a good start.

Took me a second to realize that we started the way we did and it wasn't a flashback!

I assume we ALL spotted Ed Sheeran?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Who is Ed Sheeran?

So many great moments!

Euron lost some weight and got a new haircut to better impress the queen 

More greatness from Lady Mormont.

Clegane's redemption arc is near completion.

More flirting with Brienne 

Euron recommending brother-killing as a great activity.

Shall we Begin?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

ok...Looked up who Sheeran is...I loved that song...I hope he records it with no background music just like in the show...


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Had no idea that was Ed Shereen. Not that he looked different, but I too did not really know what he looks like.

Great start and disappointed! Disappointed I cannot binge!! 

Man! Dragonstone looked amazing! Looked so freaking real! Or is it?! 

Loved Arya's revenge. And poor Sam. WTF. Why is he a bed nurse? Glad I had already had my dinner before that scene!


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

The opening scene had me confused, then, after the reveal, had me hooked. Does anyone know the history of Dragonstone? And is that where Jamie predicted they would land?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Wonder how long until Jon gets word that Bran is at the wall?

Betwen Frey not letting the girl drink (using the phrase "no you") and then recounting killing women.....I literally cheered out loud. 

Balish....eew! 

Love the Wildling guy still making eyes at Brienne. And she tries to deny she's interested, but she is! Love this prospective couple.

The Greyjoy guy....the words "trailer park" kept coming to mind. He better up his game if he wants to be taken seriously. 

Ed Sheeran! I was SO happy for him as I know he's a huge fan. I know he was geeking out over the opportunity.

Poor Sam!! Poor, poor Sam!

Clegane is one you start hating, but can't help but like. I think he's deep down a good guy. Will be interested to see what role he winds up playing in the upcoming Winter.

Dani is at Dragonstone! I'm settling in and cant wait to see what the rest of the season brings.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Also: the shots of the dragons flying over Dragonstone: those things are *HUGE!*


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Never in my life have I looked forward to winter like I am now.

Arya slays. Sheer satisfaction watching her dish out that revenge. However ..... she did the exact same thing she lectured the Freys about: left one of them alive (the young Frey wife/daughter). Can't help but predict that will come back to haunt her.

I adore Ed Sheeran, but goodness that took me out of the GOT world. An anachronistic element that historically hasn't been part of this series in the past. Hopefully that isn't the start of a trend, so I won't dwell on it.  Was he part of a group of Lannister men?

Is Jorah being held prisoner?

Must go read some recaps.

tta


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Glad to have the show back but I found the episode a little dull. Nothing of great significance happened and there was way too much tell and not enough show.

Ed was fun but I enjoyed seeing the kid from This is England.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> Does anyone know the history of Dragonstone? And is that where Jamie predicted they would land?


That's where the Targaryens first landed when they came to Westeros, and the place from which they conquered the Seven Kingdoms. And yes, it's the place Jamie thought Daenerys would land.


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Philosofy said:


> Does anyone know the history of Dragonstone? And is that where Jamie predicted they would land?


Yes, it is where Jaime predicted Dany and her fleet would land.

Dragonstone was where the first Targaryens built their stronghold upon arriving in Westeros many centuries ago (they're originally from Valyria, which had been mysteriously destroyed). Dragonstone is on a small island relatively close to King's Landing.

After the seven kingdoms were united under a Targaryen king, they built King's Landing as the new capital and Dragonstone became the home of the king's heir.

During Robert's Rebellion, the Mad King sent his pregnant wife and their young son (Viserys) to Dragonstone for safekeeping. During a violent storm, the Queen gave birth to Daenerys (which is why one of her titles is Stormborn). The Queen died during childbirth (this is something that links Dany with Tyrion and Jon, as all three of their mothers died bringing them into the world).

After Robert's forces took King's Landing, he sent his brother Stannis to Dragonstone to retrieve the Queen and the two children. The children were safely smuggled to Essos before Stannis arrived. As punishment for his failure, Robert made Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone (rather than their own family's home of Storm's End, which Robert gave to Renly).

Stannis continued to serve King Robert from Dragonstone until Robert's death. He then "ruled" from there during his time as self-proclaimed King (it's his banner that Dany pulls down when she enters the castle). Stannis abandoned Dragonstone when he went North with his forces and it has apparently been sitting empty ever since.

This episode marked both the return of Dany to the place of her birth and the return of the Targaryens to Dragonstone.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

tivotvaddict said:


> she did the exact same thing she lectured the Freys about: left one of them alive (the young Frey wife/daughter). Can't help but predict that will come back to haunt her.
> 
> tta


I thought she let all the women live because she doesn't consider them guilty.


----------



## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

getbak said:


> Yes, it is where Jaime predicted Dany and her fleet would land.
> 
> Dragonstone was where the first Targaryens built their stronghold upon arriving in Westeros many centuries ago (they're originally from Valyria, which had been mysteriously destroyed). Dragonstone is on a small island relatively close to King's Landing.
> 
> ...


Great info...thanks!


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

getbak said:


> Yes, it is where Jaime predicted Dany and her fleet would land.
> 
> Dragonstone was where the first Targaryens built their stronghold upon arriving in Westeros many centuries ago (they're originally from Valyria, which had been mysteriously destroyed). Dragonstone is on a small island relatively close to King's Landing.
> 
> ...


Great summary. I remembered part of that. My wife actually asked me during the show if Daenerys had ever been to Dragonstone. My immediate answer was no. But, then I thought I remembered that she may have been born there. Guess I was right.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

How many great insults did Clegane have in this episode? The one about the priest being bald and the bun isn't fooling anyone was priceless (kind of my feelings about comb-overs!).

I don't think Arya leaving the women is a problem. The Frey line is done. There are no more Frey men. Maybe some Frey child will grow up and get revenge but that is doubtful as they will all be dead by the time the long winter is over.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, and now Jon has a reason to go to Dragonstone as he needs to make weapons to kill Whitewalkers.

I can't wait to see how Drogon will greet Jon. I think the 3 dragon riders will be Dany, Tyrion, and Jon.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> Glad to have the show back but I found the episode a little dull. Nothing of great significance happened and there was way too much tell and not enough show.
> 
> Ed was fun but I enjoyed seeing the kid from This is England.


I think that is very typical of a E1 season. This episode was all about putting the chess pieces in the place for the season (and likely the next two seasons) as we are coming up on the final battle(s). For the most part, everyone in now in their place (Jon & Sansa in Winterfell, Cersei & Jamie in King's Landing, and Dany & Tyrion in Dragonstone.)

Some comments about last night:

I was confused for a couple of minutes at the beginning (another cold opening!). But I quickly realized it had to be Arya.

Who was right and wrong between Jon & Sansa? Should Jon forgive the Karstarks and Umbers? Glad to see Sansa has developed a pair. I think she is a dangerous woman now. (She has had a closeup relationship with three strategic masterminds: Cersei, Balish, and Ramsey)

Poor Sam, what a demeaning job he has. (BTW, the way that scene played out was unique in GoT. I have never seen such quick cuts. Bravo to the director.)

Poor Cersei. She is delusional if she thinks she can raise an army that can defeat Dany (I think she would have problems with Jon's as well.) What families are going to swear allegiance to a queen that killed off her previous banner men?

I was thinking about this before last night's episode, but what families are going to be left in Westeros? The Baratheons & Martells have been completely wiped out. The Lannisters and Tyrells have lost all heirs and will likely die off after this generations. Only the Starks and Targaryens have any heir producing family left.

The biggest question I have now is what is the time line going to be? There are two MAJOR battles that need to be fought: The battle of the seven kingdoms (Cersei vs. Jon vs. Dany) and the battle against the white walkers. I think most people assume that the assume the eventual ruler of the seven kingdoms would then have to defeat the white walkers. But, IMHO, I would prefer to see the opposite. The ultimate battle is for the Iron Throne.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I don't think you can wipe out a family if the direct descendents are dead. All it means is a cousin or the next closest relative will take over. Usually, there is a fight for legitimacy but that is but a minor detail. This is why Arya invited every Frey man to her party. 

I was expecting something to happen to the wall when Bran crossed over. But if something happened, I didn't see it. I expected some subtle change to indicate that the magic is disturbed or something.

I thought it was a nice touch to show the Lannister army as nice/normal human beings (something we've never seen before). Until now, they were all whoring, thieving, murdering, and raping. I think it's a portent of the final alliance of all Westeros once (here comes a prediction!) Jaime kills Cersei and joins Dany and Jon at the end of this season.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> Who was right and wrong between Jon & Sansa? Should Jon forgive the Karstarks and Umbers? Glad to see Sansa has developed a pair. I think she is a dangerous woman now. (She has had a closeup relationship with three strategic masterminds: Cersei, Balish, and Ramsey)


I don't think either is wrong. It's just two different ways to look at the situatrion. I guess I prefer Jon's, because he's looking forward and she's looking back.


TriBruin said:


> The biggest question I have now is what is the time line going to be? There are two MAJOR battles that need to be fought: The battle of the seven kingdoms (Cersei vs. Jon vs. Dany) and the battle against the white walkers. I think most people assume that the assume the eventual ruler of the seven kingdoms would then have to defeat the white walkers. But, IMHO, I would prefer to see the opposite. The ultimate battle is for the Iron Throne.


I have thought for years that it will all come down to Dany and Jon vs. the great evil from the North. I still am leaning that way. I also don't think Tyrion will be as central as the others, although he'll almost certainly be there. But in the very end, I can see Dany and Jon dying in their final victory, and Tyrion being the last one standing. Not that I'm predicting it, but this is the kind of show that would do that! 


Anubys said:


> I don't think you can wipe out a family if the direct descendents are dead. All it means is a cousin or the next closest relative will take over. Usually, there is a fight for legitimacy but that is but a minor detail. This is why Arya invited every Frey man to her party.


I think those were all his direct descendants. Remember, he's very very old and has married many many times.

If a cousin who is not a Lannister takes over the Lannister lands, he's not a Lannister; he's the beginning of a new dynasty.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I don't think either is wrong. It's just two different ways to look at the situatrion. I guess I prefer Jon's, because he's looking forward and she's looking back.


One makes more enemies for you and one makes more allies. I think at this time they need more allies than they need more enemies.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

There's still time to make some new heirs. Kevan Lannister is still alive, right? Or did he die in the Sept (don't recall seeing him there). And of course, are Tyrion and Sansa still technically married? Jamie could always wise up and find someone sane. And of course, who know's if Tywin/Kevin have a cousin still carrying the name. My gut would tell me there's probably still someone to carry on the family name.

As far as the Umbers and Karstarks, I think Jon was right. They had a very brief period under 1 misguided ruler where they strayed. And besides, they last thing they need are to alienate the 2 other biggest houses in the north while already dealing with armies on 2 side. Jon's made some dumb moves, but no need to be as dumb as Cersei


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Is Robert's bastard son still alive? If so, there is still a Barathian who could make claim to the throne.

It took me all of 5 seconds to realize that it was Arya during the opening scene and the wine she was handing out was poison. Loved that scene, and Arya is still one of my favorites. I could care less if that was Ed Sheeren or Paul McCartney, or Jay-Z. But whatever, it gave the teeny boppers a thrill. As said, this was the usual setup episode , to put everyone in position for what comes next.

This is the fastest hour on TV. I checked the time for the first time at 9:50 (watched live). Was disappointed it was over.

Does anyone know if HBO Now (or Go, or whatever the free HBO app is) plays the episodes at the same time as the HBO cable/sat airing? I was going to watch that since the app is 1080P on my Roku and the broadcast is only 1080i. I figured picture wise it would be that much better (I just got through rewatching S6 on BD...it sounds great in Dolby Atmos too).


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

So Jon needs to get to dragonstone now. What ever happened to Stannis' ships? Did Jon just abandon them north of the wall, or did we get any indication he left some people behind to sail them around and south of the wall?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> There's still time to make some new heirs. Kevan Lannister is still alive, right? Or did he die in the Sept (don't recall seeing him there). And of course, are Tyrion and Sansa still technically married? Jamie could always wise up and find someone sane. And of course, who know's if Tywin/Kevin have a cousin still carrying the name. My gut would tell me there's probably still someone to carry on the family name.
> 
> As far as the Umbers and Karstarks, I think Jon was right. They had a very brief period under 1 misguided ruler where they strayed. And besides, they last thing they need are to alienate the 2 other biggest houses in the north while already dealing with armies on 2 side. Jon's made some dumb moves, but no need to be as dumb as Cersei


I think Jon was right too. These young kids that are the heirs to those houses probably don't have too much of an idea about their loyalty to the Boltons. Plus, I don't think they really had much choice as they need all the manpower they can get. If they were older and more involved with the Boltons, I could see the hesitancy.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Does anyone know if HBO Now (or Go, or whatever the free HBO app is) plays the episodes at the same time as the HBO cable/sat airing?


Yes, it is supposed to. I have Hulu and just signed up for the HBO add on. I checked it a few days ago and it said it would be available at 9PM. I was intending to watch it live, but we ended up watching our neices and nephew overnight and they were sleeping in the room with the XBOX One, and by the time I put them to bed and got a chromecast hooked up to my computer it was like 10:01 when I started, so I can't say definitively but I'm pretty sure.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I think Jon was right too. These young kids that are the heirs to those houses probably don't have too much of an idea about their loyalty to the Boltons. Plus, I don't think they really had much choice as they need all the manpower they can get. If they were older and more involved with the Boltons, I could see the hesitancy.


In balance he was right; in the short term, he desperately needs the support. The question is to what extent does this encourage future rebellion, if there will be no consequences if you fail?


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Robin said:


> I thought she let all the women live because she doesn't consider them guilty.


Plus, she likely loathed Walter, and isn't unhappy he's dead. I don't think she will be plotting her revenge.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In balance he was right; in the short term, he desperately needs the support. The question is to what extent does this encourage future rebellion, if there will be no consequences if you fail?


Rebellion? As I recall, by the time the Umbars and Karstarks "rebelled", the Boltons had already seized control over the long abandoned Winterfell. The Starks were already (as far as anyone knew) a destroyed house. The only thing left was Rickon with the Umbars, and you aren't rebuilding an entire house from 1 person. That doesn't feel like much of a rebellion to me.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> In balance he was right; in the short term, he desperately needs the support. The question is to what extent does this encourage future rebellion, if there will be no consequences if you fail?


All good points. But, it appeared that after Lady Mormont's speech they were all on board. It's a means to an end, it always is. Get them on board for now and deal with the consequences later. I DO think that there will be some sort of rebellion since they banged us over the head with it. One, Sansa and Jon discussing this issue and two, Jamie and Cersie discussing how they lacked much support at this time (only 3 of the 7 kingdoms were their allies at this point).


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Ed Sheeren kind of spoil it for me. It made me realized that Arya does not have anything to fear from those soldiers. I mean, Ed won't be making a cameo for a group of bandits who tried to rape and steal from a girl, would he?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

dtle said:


> Ed Sheeren kind of spoil it for me. It made me realized that Arya does not have anything to fear from those soldiers. I mean, Ed won't be making a cameo for a group of bandits who tried to rape and steal from a girl, would he?


Does Game of Thrones NEED to have stunt casting like that? Of course I had no idea it was him until my son told me. I probably couldn't id him if he was the only person in the room.


----------



## Jeff_in_Bklyn (Apr 26, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> Does anyone know if HBO Now (or Go, or whatever the free HBO app is) plays the episodes at the same time as the HBO cable/sat airing? I was going to watch that since the app is 1080P on my Roku and the broadcast is only 1080i. I figured picture wise it would be that much better (I just got through rewatching S6 on BD...it sounds great in Dolby Atmos too).


It was on my HBO GO at 9pm. Same as live.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Who is still on Arya's kill list


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> There's still time to make some new heirs. Kevan Lannister is still alive, right? Or did he die in the Sept (don't recall seeing him there). And of course, are Tyrion and Sansa still technically married? Jamie could always wise up and find someone sane. And of course, who know's if Tywin/Kevin have a cousin still carrying the name. My gut would tell me there's probably still someone to carry on the family name.
> 
> As far as the Umbers and Karstarks, I think Jon was right. They had a very brief period under 1 misguided ruler where they strayed. And besides, they last thing they need are to alienate the 2 other biggest houses in the north while already dealing with armies on 2 side. Jon's made some dumb moves, but no need to be as dumb as Cersei


I am fairly certain Kevan Lannister was in the Great Sept when it blew up. (He was standing next to the Tyrells).

As far as Jon, he is probably remembering that Robb lost his support due to his "moral high ground" and how he executed a Karstark for treason. He probably figures a little mercy would be better.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Anubys said:


> (here comes a prediction!) Jaime kills Cersei and joins Dany and Jon at the end of this season.


Interesting prediction. I did think it a bit odd when Cersei asked Jaime if he was afraid of her.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

At this point, I can't see how Cersei's arc can extend much further...certainly not two seasons. I suspect either she dies sooner rather than later, or there is a seismic shift in the show's status quo coming that I just can't figure out. Because as it stands, she's got nothing but madness to prop her up. Her only real hope is that all the much more powerful forces that are out there will be too busy with each other to bother with her. And I don't see her being smart enough to let that happen.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Quick question: Have we seen the throne at Dragonstone before? I immediately recognized the map room, but wasn't sure about the throne room.


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

Jon has the undying loyalty of those two kids now, plus Lady Mormont. He needs the next generation every bit as much as he does the current one.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Jstkiddn said:


> Quick question: Have we seen the throne at Dragonstone before? I immediately recognized the map room, but wasn't sure about the throne room.


I really doubt it. It really struck me as something new (and it struck me that Westerosi monarchs are really hooked on monumental symbolic chairs!).


----------



## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

I am guessing there will be some wars for the realm but as those battles start to play out the whitewalkers will spoil their fun and they will have to ban together to fight that war instead. Who is left standing before the white walker war is anyones guess but I assume most major players will be around.
I would say this will all happen and set us up for the final season but I can't see 7 episodes of white walker war talk and battling. Maybe 2-3 episodes.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Not sure if it is because I didn't pad the recording, but there was an "inside the episode" on HBO GO that wasn't on my HBO recording of the show.

Cersei is clearly becoming the mad Queen, and we know who killed the mad King. I am also wondering what Greyjoy thinks is the invaluable gift for Cersei? Tyrion?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

ct1 said:


> One makes more enemies for you and one makes more allies. I think at this time they need more allies than they need more enemies.


I'm not sure which one makes more enemies. I think Jon's decision is absolutely the right one. Disrupting the Umbers and Karstarks would cause lingering issues and discontent. His decision has their loyalty back immediately and The North is united again.

My predictions:

1. Sansa and Jon Snow get married (to each other)
2. Tyrion kills Jamie and Cersie
3. White walkers end up on the iron throne.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I'm not sure which one makes more enemies. I think Jon's decision is absolutely the right one. Disrupting the Umbers and Karstarks would cause lingering issues and discontent. His decision has their loyalty back immediately and The North is united again.
> 
> My predictions:
> 
> ...


Not sure if you're serious but, assuming you are:

1. In Westeros alliances are everything. There's no logical reason why Jon and Sansa marry, unless Jon finds out he's really a Targaryon.

2. While I'd love to see this, I think it's more likely that Jamie and Tyrion become allies. I think that Cersie will wind up being Arya's last victim (I could see Arya killing Jaime, stealing his face and then killing Cersie).

3. While I wouldn't put it past the writers (and maybe that is Martin's ultimate ending), I think we the viewers would absolutely hate an ending like that. I hope that they don't do one of those types of endings and give the viewers what they want, which is probably either Jon, Dani or Tyrion on the throne.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Who is still on Arya's kill list


With Arya's new-found powers, she really could change the fate of the iron throne. She can basically get to any leader. It'll be curious to see if she takes out Cersie - I'm thinking she'll change course for Winterfell as soon as she hears news of Jon and Sansa.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

My predictions:
1. Cersie gets killed
2. It's very painful
3. And nobody is sorry.

I may or may not have serious bias in this matter.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Not sure if you're serious but, assuming you are:
> 
> 1. In Westeros alliances are everything. There's no logical reason why Jon and Sansa marry, unless Jon finds out he's really a Targaryon.
> 
> ...


I was mostly being silly but yes, I think Jon learns the truth very soon and then a marriage to Sansa makes sense politically. But of course kissing your brother (or what you thought was your brother ) is yucky. Right Cersie?

I agree with someone above who predicts Tyrion's biggest moves are behind him. I'm not sure he does much other than hand the rest of the way.

Yes, we would hate the white walkers winning. But wouldn't we also hate seeing a last minute win for the humans based on some lucky shot or "hey, here's a dragon"? I'm sure they'll do much better by us but it really does have to be a lot better. I mean really , really good.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> At this point, I can't see how Cersei's arc can extend much further...certainly not two seasons. I suspect either she dies sooner rather than later, or there is a seismic shift in the show's status quo coming that I just can't figure out. Because as it stands, she's got nothing but madness to prop her up. Her only real hope is that all the much more powerful forces that are out there will be too busy with each other to bother with her. And I don't see her being smart enough to let that happen.


Agreed. So if she dies tomorrow who sits on the iron throne?

And she had the mountain bring her son to her. I still don't see how she wouldn't have talked him through the blowing up and managed to talk him out of suicide. That still doesn't quite sit right with me.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

nickels said:


> Not sure if it is because I didn't pad the recording, but there was an "inside the episode" on HBO GO that wasn't on my HBO recording of the show.
> 
> Cersei is clearly becoming the mad Queen, and we know who killed the mad King. I am also wondering what Greyjoy thinks is the invaluable gift for Cersei? Tyrion?


Stormborn's head on a platter.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I agree with someone above who predicts Tyrion's biggest moves are behind him. I'm not sure he does much other than hand the rest of the way.


Well, if Dany decides to attack Casterly Rock, Tyrion's familiarity with the Castle would be very helpful. Also, be it at Casterly Rock or King's Landing, Tyrion and Jaime will eventually face each other. So I don't think Tyrion's done yet. Not by a long shot.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Agreed. So if she dies tomorrow who sits on the iron throne?


I think at this point the Iron Throne as something besides a monumental symbolic chair exists mainly in Cersei's mind. Most of the kingdoms have broken away, many of them driven off by Cersei.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Well, if Dany decides to attack Casterly Rock, Tyrion's familiarity with the Castle would be very helpful. Also, be it at Casterly Rock or King's Landing, Tyrion and Jaime will eventually face each other. So I don't think Tyrion's done yet. Not by a long shot.


I never said he was done.

I just don't see any more action as big as killing his father and saving Kings Landing with a ship full of wildfire.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think at this point the Iron Throne as something besides a monumental symbolic chair exists mainly in Cersei's mind. Most of the kingdoms have broken away, many of them driven off by Cersei.


Who is next in line? Do we know?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Who is next in line? Do we know?


Well, nobody, really. If anybody were in line, Cersei wouldn't have been able to take it...she had no claim whatsoever other than her threat to kill anybody who said so.

The Baratheons are all gone. Danaerys has probably a better claim than anybody else at this point (other than Jon, once his paternity is established, assuming he was legitimate, i.e., that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped rather than just running off together).


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

The quote from vulture summed it up for me:

• Speaking of gingers and fan service: Yes, it's very sweet that showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss brought Ed Sheeran to serenade Maisie Williams, but it pulled me out of the world of the show so intensely, I wish they'd skipped it. I don't think it helped that Sheeran was palling around with a band of Lannister soldiers who seemed like they took a wrong turn out of a Disney Robin Hood movie. I am very much here for _GOT _scenes where a group of strangers don't turn out to be totally awful (not to mention respectful of the legal Westerosi drinking age), but I spent the whole time wondering when someone was going to stab someone else and then being confused when no one did.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I never said he was done.
> 
> I just don't see any more action as big as killing his father and saving Kings Landing with a ship full of wildfire.


How about masterminding the attack on King's Landing since he has an intimate knowledge of KL and of his sister and what Jamie might do? He was Hand to Joffrey, he knows where the bodies are buried, where there might be wildfire and so on. I can see him playing an integral role the rest of the way, if not something very dramatic.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> How about masterminding the attack on King's Landing since he has an intimate knowledge of KL and of his sister and what Jamie might do? He was Hand to Joffrey, he knows where the bodies are buried, where there might be wildfire and so on. I can see him playing an integral role the rest of the way, if not something very dramatic.


Certainly a possibility.

I imagine we're all unclear on what the next battle is. I don't know my Westeros geography well at all.

1. Where does Dany attack first?
2. Are there still Freys at Riverrun who might come back to take over after Walder? Seems not from what Arya said, but does she really know?
3. Does Jon go snatch up Frey's lands while the getting's good? He doesn't have many men.
4. Cersie still has a large force, iirc. But where would they go? Winterfell is a long way off and do they want to deal with that? 
5. Where is Euron heading? Dorne perhaps.
6. Does Littlefinger see anything advantageous now that his troops are mobile?
7. Are the white walkers close to the wall?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Certainly a possibility.
> 
> I imagine we're all unclear on what the next battle is. I don't know my Westeros geography well at all.
> 
> ...


I wanted to touch on these two things. Littlefinger, he's got that, "I know something that you don't" look about him. Like, if Sansa doesn't do what he wants, the Vale could switch sides in the blink of an eye. He's been an interesting character this whole series, and to discount what he might do is dangerous. I wonder what he's up to?

My son mentioned something that I'm not sure if I got quite right. He mentioned something like Bran being at The Wall, could mean the beginning of the end and this is how the White Walkers breach the wall. Something about Bran seeing himself at The Wall and the White Walkers overrunning it. Anyone know the story behind that?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

When Sam was on poop-and-soup duty sometimes you couldn't tell the two apart.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> Poor Sam, what a demeaning job he has. (BTW, the way that scene played out was unique in GoT. I have never seen such quick cuts. Bravo to the director.)


I don't think that deserves a "Bravo" at all. I thought that montage was really out of character for the show and it took me out of the world and got me thinking about film editors and how the passage of time should properly be depicted on this show.


Rob Helmerichs said:


> In balance he was right; in the short term, he desperately needs the support. The question is to what extent does this encourage future rebellion, if there will be no consequences if you fail?


There are definitely consequences if you rebel. If you fail, you get executed for treason. But there are no consequences to your descendants, which is as it should be, since they're not the ones that rebelled.

So Euron's giant fleet sailed around the southern tip of Westeros and into Blackwater Bay to King's Landing. Then are we to assume that the entire fleet up and left to support Euron on his quest to find a gift that will entice Cercei to marry him? Otherwise, given that Dragonstone is at the mouth of Blackwater Bay, does Dany's fleet have some of Euron's fleet trapped in the Bay?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> When Sam was on poop-and-soup duty sometimes you couldn't tell the two apart.


I'm pretty sure that was intentional.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Certainly a possibility.
> 
> I imagine we're all unclear on what the next battle is. I don't know my Westeros geography well at all.


Here you go:


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> Littlefinger, he's got that, "I know something that you don't" look about him. Like, if Sansa doesn't do what he wants, the Vale could switch sides in the blink of an eye. He's been an interesting character this whole series, and to discount what he might do is dangerous. I wonder what he's up to?


I did find it interesting that Sansa thinks she knows exactly what he wants; wasn't his greatest advantage supposed to be that no one ever knows what he really wants?


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

And here's a better view of the relative positions of King's Landing and Dragonstone:


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> I did find it interesting that Sansa thinks she knows exactly what he wants; wasn't his greatest advantage supposed to be that no one ever knows what he really wants?


I think she was referring to the fact that she knows he wants in her pants. I'm not sure she knows anything beyond that.


----------



## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

I hope Sansa starts remembering the way things are done in the north. 

The North way was to not kill the children for their parents misdeeds.

The Lannister way was to kill the entire family, everybody who ever met the family, the family pets, anybody who ever petted the family pet and just to make sure every village within their enemies territory. 

I have a suspicion that Tyrion's head will be Euron's "gift" to Cersei. Tyrions character seems to have proven to be a challenge to the writers once they ran out of book material for him. They solved the problem with Sansa and Arya by having them take over other characters who are not in the TV show.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> <snip>
> 3. While I wouldn't put it past the writers (and maybe that is Martin's ultimate ending), I think we the viewers would absolutely hate an ending like that. I hope that they don't do one of those types of endings and give the viewers what they want, which is probably either Jon, Dani or Tyrion on the throne.


I've always assumed that we aren't going to get an ending that would make the viewers happy. Cersei ends up being the victor or the white walkers wipe everyone out. Something sure to tick everyone off. Doesn't seem like a Martin thing to do to give people an ending that would make them happy.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> I was mostly being silly but yes, I think Jon learns the truth very soon and then a marriage to Sansa makes sense politically. But of course kissing your brother (or what you thought was your brother ) is yucky. Right Cersie?
> 
> I agree with someone above who predicts Tyrion's biggest moves are behind him. I'm not sure he does much other than hand the rest of the way.
> 
> Yes, we would hate the white walkers winning. But wouldn't we also hate seeing a last minute win for the humans based on some lucky shot or "hey, here's a dragon"? I'm sure they'll do much better by us but it really does have to be a lot better. I mean really , really good.


I suspect Jon learns the truth in the next episode. Bran knows the truth, and he's made it to the Wall.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

There was a 0% chance of me noticing it but apparently Sansa was sporting Cersie's hairdo in this episode. Dun dun DUNNN!



> Turner already revealed in an interview with Refinery 29 that Sansa's hair reflects the "people she's learning from, or mimicking, or inspired by."
> 
> The fact that she's channeling Cersei while having a disagreement with Jon is pretty unnerving, especially considering she _just_ said that she's "learned a great deal" from a woman who always finds a way of murdering her enemies.


The Unsettling Thing You Missed In The 'Game Of Thrones' Premiere | HuffPost


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> There was a 0% chance of me noticing it but apparently Sansa was sporting Cersie's hairdo in this episode. Dun dun DUNNN!
> 
> The Unsettling Thing You Missed In The 'Game Of Thrones' Premiere | HuffPost


I remember thinking how much she resembled her "role model" in that scene, but I didn't realize that she was directly copying her hairstyle.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Azlen said:


> I've always assumed that we aren't going to get an ending that would make the viewers happy. Cersei ends up being the victor or the white walkers wipe everyone out. Something sure to tick everyone off. Doesn't seem like a Martin thing to do to give people an ending that would make them happy.


I could live with it if the white walkers wipe Cersei out.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> There was a 0% chance of me noticing it but apparently Sansa was sporting Cersie's hairdo in this episode. Dun dun DUNNN!
> 
> The Unsettling Thing You Missed In The 'Game Of Thrones' Premiere | HuffPost


She looks like Boy George in that video.


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> I was mostly being silly but yes, I think Jon learns the truth very soon and then a marriage to Sansa makes sense politically. But of course kissing your brother (or what you thought was your brother ) is yucky. Right Cersie?


Even if they do figure out that he's a Targaryon, Starks don't strike me as the "marry your first cousin" type.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

DevdogAZ said:


> I think she was referring to the fact that she knows he wants in her pants. I'm not sure she knows anything beyond that.


Actually, she does know. Baelish told her last season by the Godswood tree at Winterfell (I always watch the previous season before the next one starts!). He wants the Iron Throne and for her to sit next to him as his queen. Of course, the king would get in her pants anytime he wants to (It's good to be the king).


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Regarding final battles, etc. Isn't Jon really an unwilling king? He doesn't really want to be king, but he feels he must because if not him...then who? He feels a duty. If they both survive to the end, I think that if he and his Auntie Daenerys wind up on the same page about things, then he would be happy to step aside and support her ascent to the throne.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's a theory: Arya kills Cersei, takes her identity, and rules in her stead to ally with Jon and Dany to unite against the white walkers.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Steveknj said:


> ...
> 
> My son mentioned something that I'm not sure if I got quite right. He mentioned something like Bran being at The Wall, could mean the beginning of the end and this is how the White Walkers breach the wall. Something about Bran seeing himself at The Wall and the White Walkers overrunning it. Anyone know the story behind that?


While in a vision Bran was touched by the Knight King. Immediately after that there was no longer magical protection in the cave with the three eyed raven. Bran broke the magic protection by being there in his "marked" state. So, now that marked Bran has gone through the wall, I imagine the same rules apply. The wall is most likely no longer protected by magic anymore.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

nickels said:


> While in a vision Bran was touched by the Knight King. Immediately after that there was no longer magical protection in the cave with the three eyed raven. Bran broke the magic protection by being there in his "marked" state. So, now that marked Bran has gone through the wall, I imagine the same rules apply. The wall is most likely no longer protected by magic anymore.


Or maybe he would have to have a dream about the Night King while on the south side of the Wall for that to happen.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> When Sam was on poop-and-soup duty sometimes you couldn't tell the two apart.


Heh heh... you said doodie.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

I think all the Starks learn of the others' non-dead status within the first 10 minute of the next episode. Those ravens are like Facebook. News spreads fast.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

uncdrew said:


> Those ravens are like Facebook.


More like twitter, I should think.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> Here's a theory: Arya kills Cersei, takes her identity, and rules in her stead to ally with Jon and Dany to unite against the white walkers.


Isn't Cersei universally hated? What's the advantage to being her long term?


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

Is Gendry still running around somewhere? Could he come back and claim the throne?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

ISTR from previous discussions here that as a bastard he had no claim unless Robert named him (like Ramsay).


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Robin said:


> Here you go:


Interesting positioning of Cersei and Jamie there.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Robin said:


> Isn't Cersei universally hated? What's the advantage to being her long term?


The mountain

She does command a really large army, right?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> She does command a really large army, right?


I'm not sure how big it still is...she sure was desperate in the past to get troops from all the people she has since alienated.


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

dtle said:


> Ed Sheeren kind of spoil it for me. It made me realized that Arya does not have anything to fear from those soldiers. I mean, Ed won't be making a cameo for a group of bandits who tried to rape and steal from a girl, would he?


He could very well be in a cameo of a group of dead bodies as Arya rides off though...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure how big it still is...she sure was desperate in the past to get troops from all the people she has since alienated.


When they marched under Tywin it was 20,000 I believe. I think The Young Wolf (Robb Stark) took down some but I think the army is still large. Much larger than Jon's or Littlefinger's IIRC


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Interesting read on army sizes.

Who Has the Biggest Army on 'Game of Thrones'?


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

The part that struck me as silliest in this episode was the design of the Greyjoy ships. All that ridiculous superstructure to make it look like a floating castle also makes it look like a giant sail area that would flip the ships on their side in any moderately stiff gust of wind that hit it from the side.


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

tivotvaddict said:


> I adore Ed Sheeran, but goodness that took me out of the GOT world.


So, there are clearly advantages to not having the slightest idea who Ed Sheeran is and never having heard the name until I started seeing incessant articles about him having a cameo .


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Until I looked at a map (today) I thought Dragonstone was much further south. Cercie better focus on that problem well before Dorne or The North. Seems the dragons and Dothraki horde could be upon her in a matter of days.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tomhorsley said:


> So, there are clearly advantages to not having the slightest idea who Ed Sheeran is and never having heard the name until I started seeing incessant articles about him having a cameo .


Same here. 

(I read that Maisie Williams is a huge fan, and the producers have been trying to get him on set for a cameo for years to surprise her.)


uncdrew said:


> Until I looked at a map (today) I thought Dragonstone was much further south. Cercie better focus on that problem well before Dorne or The North. Seems the dragons and Dothraki horde could be upon her in a matter of days.


Although I'm not sure how effective a Dothrai horde would be in rocky, mountainous terrain like the land between Dragonstone and King's Landing...


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Same here.
> 
> (I read that Maisie Williams is a huge fan, and the producers have been trying to get him on set for a cameo for years to surprise her.)
> 
> Although I'm not sure how effective a Dothrai horde would be in rocky, mountainous terrain like the land between Dragonstone and King's Landing...


I wonder how many she fit on the boats. 100 boats from Theon/Yarra and 30? from the slavers?

Doubt all 140,000 could fit. Those boats didn't look very big. Nor very full, though w only saw the few up front.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> I wonder how many she fit on the boats. 100 boats from Theon/Yarra and 30? from the slavers?
> 
> Doubt all 140,000 could fit. Those boats didn't look very big. Nor very full, though w only saw the few up front.


The horses were probably all packed down below decks.

Now that they've arrived, no doubt they'll outsource the cleaning to the Citadel...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Although I'm not sure how effective a Dothrai horde would be in rocky, mountainous terrain like the land between Dragonstone and King's Landing...












There's nothing but water between Dragonstone and King's Landing.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> There's nothing but water between Dragonstone and King's Landing.


And about four, five hundred miles of shoreline. Rocky, mountainous shoreline.

It's what Stannis's fleet sailed along to get to the Battle of Blackwater Bay.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

It was rather pointed how they didn't let Sheeran speak. I guess his acting didn't impress them.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And about four, five hundred miles of shoreline. Rocky, mountainous shoreline.
> 
> It's what Stannis's fleet sailed along to get to the Battle of Blackwater Bay.


I'd assume the current residents of Dragonstone would use their ships to reach King's Landing too.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And about four, five hundred miles of shoreline. Rocky, mountainous shoreline.
> 
> It's what Stannis's fleet sailed along to get to the Battle of Blackwater Bay.


I don't think it's that far. I've heard people estimate the distance from King's Landing to Winterfell is about 1,000 miles. Based on the map, Dragonstone is only about 1/4 as far away. And besides, why would they unload everyone to walk several hundred miles to King's Landing when they could remain on the ships and sail much closer without tiring out their forces?


----------



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

BeanMeScot said:


> It was rather pointed how they didn't let Sheeran speak. I guess his acting didn't impress them.


He did have a few words. Nothing dynamic, mind you!


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Yep, he spoke a bit.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

There was one shot of Dany's ships where you could see the horses below. It was a nice touch.


----------



## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

DevdogAZ said:


> And besides, why would they unload everyone to walk several hundred miles to King's Landing when they could remain on the ships and sail much closer without tiring out their forces?


Attacking King's Landing would have been an opposed landing; we saw in a previous episode how well that has worked out in the past. In Dragonstone Daenerys has gained without significant cost a defensible base from which to deploy her forces and gather intelligence.

Also the reasons Jamie gave in his assessment to Cersei.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ej42137 said:


> Attacking King's Landing would have been an opposed landing; we saw in a previous episode how well that has worked out in the past. In Dragonstone Daenerys has gained without significant cost a defensible base from which to deploy her forces and gather intelligence.
> 
> Also the reasons Jamie gave in his assessment to Cersei.


I wasn't suggesting that they shouldn't stop at Dragonstone or use it as their base of operations. I was simply saying that when the time comes, it would be much more efficient to sail their forces the majority of the way down Blackwater Bay before putting them ashore to march.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

If I were her, King's Landing would be about the last place I'd attack. I'd start with places where a Dothraki horde would be useful, places with relatively flat, wide-open spaces. Let Cersei sit trapped in her city on a rock, watching her armies get eaten apart.

Then send in the dragons.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Robin said:


> Isn't Cersei universally hated? What's the advantage to being her long term?


From a female POV, I would venture to guess that sex with Jaime would be considered an advantage 

1 important detail that I think is overlooked because of the Ed Sheehan guy (never heard of him, either) is that the Lannisters took over the Twins. This is a very strategic spot that was left open for anyone to control. Had Arya coordinated with Jon and Sansa, it would've been under Winterfell's control.

Another minor detail I noticed from last season is when Uncle Benjen saved Bran and his GF (I forget her name), he made Bran drink the blood of a rabbit that he was cleaning. There was plenty of fire and snow to go around, so water was not an issue.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Oh, and very disappointed that the opening credits still had a stag over King's Landing. Absolutely should have been a Lion.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Another minor detail I noticed from last season is when Uncle Benjen saved Bran and his GF (I forget her name), he made Bran drink the blood of a rabbit that he was cleaning. There was plenty of fire and snow to go around, so water was not an issue.


I can't remember (and I also just rewatched last season so I remember the Benji scene with Bran). Is there any significance to Bran drinking rabbits blood. Is that to ward off the white-walkers or something else?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I can't remember (and I also just rewatched last season so I remember the Benji scene with Bran). Is there any significance to Bran drinking rabbits blood. Is that to ward off the white-walkers or something else?


Oh, I have no idea. But it's just the sort of strange detail that just might come back to be significant. There was just no reason to go to all that trouble during that scene.

When we first met Tywin, he was cleaning some sort of buck/deer. He didn't drink or offer anyone a drink of its blood  if they wanted Benjen to clean a rabbit because he's helping Bran and the girl, why go to the trouble of also showing him drain the blood in a cup and offering it to Bran (and only Bran, btw)?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Oh, I have no idea. But it's just the sort of strange detail that just might come back to be significant. There was just no reason to go to all that trouble during that scene.
> 
> When we first met Tywin, he was cleaning some sort of buck/deer. He didn't drink or offer anyone a drink of its blood  if they wanted Benjen to clean a rabbit because he's helping Bran and the girl, why go to the trouble of also showing him drain the blood in a cup and offering it to Bran (and only Bran, btw)?


Exactly, and it's the kind of detail that's easily overlooked but could be significant, considering that Bran is now at The Wall. Benjin, if I recall, is sort of half zombie now, so I get the idea that the rabbit's blood may have stopped his complete transformation. That's a scene I should go back and watch again.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

One thing I know from watching this show: I absolutely thank the gods and all that is holy that I don't live during the Middle Ages.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If I were her, King's Landing would be about the last place I'd attack. I'd start with places where a Dothraki horde would be useful, places with relatively flat, wide-open spaces. Let Cersei sit trapped in her city on a rock, watching her armies get eaten apart.
> 
> Then send in the dragons.


I sense her horde is quite eager to fight. I think they can take almost anyone and should start soon. I think the dragons alone could take Kings Landing without a single (dragon) casualty.

But they'll probably play it slow.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> One thing I know from watching this show: I absolutely thank the gods and all that is holy that I don't live during the Middle Ages.


With my eyesight, I wouldn't have lived long.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> I sense her horde is quite eager to fight. I think they can take almost anyone and should start soon. I think the dragons alone could take Kings Landing without a single (dragon) casualty.
> 
> But they'll probably play it slow.


To be honest, I was less than impressed with the might of a dragon when the sons of the Harpy tried to assassinate Dany. Sure, it killed a lot of them, but it seems to me like the Harpies would've killed Drogon had it not flown away.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Anubys said:


> To be honest, I was less than impressed with the might of a dragon when the sons of the Harpy tried to assassinate Dany. Sure, it killed a lot of them, but it seems to me like the Harpies would've killed Drogon had it not flown away.


The primary advantage of these dragons is air strikes. The reason Drogon got into trouble was because he landed and was on the ground for too long.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

john4200 said:


> The primary advantage of these dragons is air strikes. The reason Drogon got into trouble was because he landed and was on the ground for too long.


I might be wrong but it seems like he's gotten significantly bigger since then, too.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

So I've been going back and forth on this... does anyone else think Arya's big moment strained credibility a bit?

I mean, I can see how she might have passed for old Walder at the feast (e.g., standing on the chair or even small stilts to mimic his height), but there's still the matter of calling and preparing for the feast, waiting for the guests to arrive, etc., all while allaying suspicions about Walder's behavior (which (s)he openly admitted was out of character).

Part of me imagines (or ret-cons) an epic tale of quick-change disguises and subterfuge to pull it all off. But another part of me thinks that the whole thing seems a little too much to take, even for a face-shifting master assassin (and really, isn't she barely past apprentice status at this point?).

[And yes, I'm aware this is a world full of dragons, fire-magic, and ice-zombies, but still...   ]


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Yeah, I'm imagining the dragons being quite effective at destroying Euron Greyjoy's fleet of ships.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

dcheesi said:


> So I've been going back and forth on this... does anyone else think Arya's big moment strained credibility a bit?
> 
> I mean, I can see how she might have passed for old Walder at the feast (e.g., standing on the chair or even small stilts to mimic his height), but there's still the matter of calling and preparing for the feast, waiting for the guests to arrive, etc., all while allaying suspicions about Walder's behavior (which (s)he openly admitted was out of character).


I had similar thoughts - Walder (really Aria) said it was the second feast in a fortnight (2 weeks), so potentially she was disguised as him for 14 days. But, given how rude, grumpy, and abrupt Walder is, I'm thinking not many people want to spend time with him, and if he gruffly said, "Arrange a feast and I want all of the Red Wedding attendees there! They deserve a feast!", that he's not going to get any pushback, and if is more of a recluse in the interim, anyone who would normally be forced to spend time with him will be grateful for the break, and not too concerned about why.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

How do dragons fare when you catapult barrels of wildfire at them?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

ct1 said:


> How do dragons fare when you catapult barrels of wildfire at them?


Probably extremely difficult to hit a fast and irregularly moving target like a dragon with a not-easily-repositionable catapult. But even so it's probably irrelevant some a certain someone may have used up all of the wildfire (unless there were multiple storage locations spread across kings landing).


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

LordKronos said:


> Probably extremely difficult to hit a fast and irregularly moving target like a dragon with a not-easily-repositionable catapult. But even so it's probably irrelevant some a certain someone may have used up all of the wildfire (unless there were multiple storage locations spread across kings landing).


They'd probably bask in the fire, enjoying it..


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

ct1 said:


> How do dragons fare when you catapult barrels of wildfire at them?


How accurate could those barrels be aimed, where is the wildfire coming from, and do we know if the dragons have anti-barrel defense mechanisms built-in (aka shoot fire at them while the barrels are heading their way, causing them to explode)?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

ct1 said:


> They'd probably bask in the fire, enjoying it..


Yeah, I'm pretty sure dragons are fireproof.

I guess the only chance to hurt a flying dragon would be to launch "chaff" in their likely path -- sharp bits of metal or stone that could hole their wings.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I have a mental image of them trying to hit a dragon with a barrel, miss, and the barrel comes down on them.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't think that deserves a "Bravo" at all. I thought that montage was really out of character for the show and it took me out of the world and got me thinking about film editors and how the passage of time should properly be depicted on this show.


I agree. I thought it was horribly unGOT


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Plus Ed Sheeran is better cast as a hobbit.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

dcheesi said:


> So I've been going back and forth on this... does anyone else think Arya's big moment strained credibility a bit?


Is it possible the gathering was in place before Arya killed him? If so all she had to do was poison the wine which seems easy enough.

(I was hoping for a Princess Bride reference myself )


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

SullyND said:


> Is it possible the gathering was in place before Arya killed him? If so all she had to do was poison the wine which seems easy enough.
> 
> (I was hoping for a Princess Bride reference myself )


It's possible, but as stated on the show was very out of character so it is much more likely she orchestrated it.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

tivotvaddict said:


> Is Jorah being held prisoner?


i just finished reading the thread, and didn't see anyone else answer - i assumed he's following dany's advice to find a greyscale cure, and has turned to the maestors at the citadel. there are online predictions from viewers who noticed this in the premier (tv guide):



Spoiler: many missed this in the season 7 premier



Game of Thrones Season 7 premiere may have just revealed the answer to a major mystery without many fans even noticing.

While Sam (John Bradley) was flipping through books at the Citadel, one page seemed to reveal a possible cure for Jorah's (Iain Glen) greyscale. As pointed out by a Reddit user StormSS, one of the pages appeared to hint at dragonglass as a potential cure for the debilitating disease.

Although not all the words on the page are legible, the words "stone," "dragonglass," "cure" and "ingestion" are clear. That's lead some fans to assume this text details a folk remedy of ingesting dragonglass as a low-risk way to cure greyscale. But before you get your hopes up, the text also seems to indicate that this isn't necessarily a reliable cure, appearing to say that the diseased person's money would be "better spent on practical treatments."


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> So I've been going back and forth on this... does anyone else think Arya's big moment strained credibility a bit?
> 
> I mean, I can see how she might have passed for old Walder at the feast (e.g., standing on the chair or even small stilts to mimic his height), but there's still the matter of calling and preparing for the feast, waiting for the guests to arrive, etc., all while allaying suspicions about Walder's behavior (which (s)he openly admitted was out of character).
> 
> ...


I was imagining where she'd get all the poison, mix it into the wine, get the wine into 20 pitchers, keep those safe until needed, etc.

So yes, I just suspended disbelief on the whole thing. I can imagine a lot of "Walder is acting especially weird" statements from family and staff.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

The magic of the Many-Faced God is that you become whoever's face you are wearing. I never assumed that it's just the face that changed. We've seen this before, I believe as her teacher was a much shorter black old man; for example. So I wasn't surprised.

And in a world like GoT; where someone like Walder is unquestioned and unchallenged; I have no problem believing that Arya could pose as him for as long as she liked.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> i just finished reading the thread, and didn't see anyone else answer - i assumed he's following dany's advice to find a greyscale cure, and has turned to the maestors at the citadel. there are online predictions from viewers who noticed this in the premier (tv guide):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who the hell has this much time on their hands to be able to walk through the episode frame by frame and read each page?


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

TriBruin said:


> Who the hell has this much time on their hands to be able to walk through the episode frame by frame and read each page?


i guess it depends on, yes, time, combined with a desire to look for hidden clues, along with the attention to detail by the producers.

in a world where we're now routinely expected to (seemingly, endlessly) read text messages on phones during shows, i don't see it as that far a stretch. in previous seasons of got i've paused to read raven messages, and that olde english print isn't always easy to decipher. i even paused to read the headlines and stories of the daily prophet in harry potter films.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

TriBruin said:


> Who the hell has this much time on their hands to be able to walk through the episode frame by frame and read each page?


To those brave men and women of the internet


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

TriBruin said:


> Who the hell has this much time on their hands to be able to walk through the episode frame by frame and read each page?


Well, it's not the whole episode - just a brief bit that showed the book pages.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> Who the hell has this much time on their hands to be able to walk through the episode frame by frame and read each page?


Lots and lots of people.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Did anyone else suspect that topknot guy might actually BE the Lord of Light? He's the one that performs the resurrection ceremony. Maybe the "Someone special" isn't the High Priest. And it was strange how the Hound became psychic.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

NorthAlabama said:


> in a world where we're now routinely expected to (seemingly, endlessly) read text messages on phones during shows,


Say what? I usually mute my phone and leave it on the computer desk while I'm watching TV. What am I missing?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> And it was strange how the Hound became psychic.


They would say that the Lord of Light has chosen him and is now showing him things.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Have the dragons been seen/mentioned by anyone from Westeros yet? I guess it won't be long now, but I don't recall them being mentioned as a threat to be dealt with.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> Have the dragons been seen/mentioned by anyone from Westeros yet? I guess it won't be long now, but I don't recall them being mentioned as a threat to be dealt with.


I'm not sure anybody's aware Danaerys has landed yet. Jaime and Cersei knew she was on the way and were speculating on where she would land, but that's about it, isn't it? And since she landed on an uninhabited island, it stands to reason nobody _will _know until she makes her move (whatever that turns out to be).


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure anybody's aware Danaerys has landed yet. Jaime and Cersei knew she was on the way and were speculating on where she would land, but that's about it, isn't it? And since she landed on an uninhabited island, it stands to reason nobody _will _know until she makes her move (whatever that turns out to be).


Cersei did know that Danaerys was heading across to Westeros though. Given that level of intelligence, the dragons probably aren't a secret. Whatever spies are reporting in probably didn't forget to mention, "oh yeah, she controls 3 huge dragons, and they're heading your way too."


----------



## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> Cersei did know that Danaerys was heading across to Westeros though. Given that level of intelligence, the dragons probably aren't a secret. Whatever spies are reporting in probably didn't forget to mention, "oh yeah, she controls 3 huge dragons, and they're heading your way too."


The dragons have been mentioned in King's Landing many times, pretty sure the small council discussed them in the season following their appearance.

Am I misremembering or were they mentioned in the most recent episode?


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> Say what? I usually mute my phone and leave it on the computer desk while I'm watching TV. What am I missing?


He's talking about a text message shown on the character's phone.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> Who the hell has this much time on their hands to be able to walk through the episode frame by frame and read each page?


Have you met us?


----------



## Howie (May 3, 2004)

TriBruin said:


> Who the hell has this much time on their hands to be able to walk through the episode frame by frame and read each page?


I have the time. What I'm lacking is the inclination.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Raisltin Majere said:


> The dragons have been mentioned in King's Landing many times, pretty sure the small council discussed them in the season following their appearance.
> 
> Am I misremembering or were they mentioned in the most recent episode?


It seemed to me that at the end of last season The Masters didn't realize they were THAT big. I think when the thought they were about to be back in charge, they said to go fetch and kill them, which obviously wasn't going to happen.

Maybe other people are the same, even if they know they are out there, they don't realize just how big they are.

-smak-


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> The biggest question I have now is what is the time line going to be? There are two MAJOR battles that need to be fought: The battle of the seven kingdoms (Cersei vs. Jon vs. Dany) and the battle against the white walkers. I think most people assume that the assume the eventual ruler of the seven kingdoms would then have to defeat the white walkers. But, IMHO, I would prefer to see the opposite. The ultimate battle is for the Iron Throne.


Where no longer following the books, the writers of the show are doing it all on their own.


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> Does anyone know if HBO Now (or Go, or whatever the free HBO app is) plays the episodes at the same time as the HBO cable/sat airing? I was going to watch that since the app is 1080P on my Roku and the broadcast is only 1080i. I figured picture wise it would be that much better (I just got through rewatching S6 on BD...it sounds great in Dolby Atmos too).


It is, but report are that it crash in some part of the country. DriectTV Now also crash big time with all channel down. HBO servers could not keep up with the demand.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Johncv said:


> Where no longer following the books, the writers of the show are doing it all on their own.


We're not following the books anymore, but the writers aren't just making it all up. They've consulted with GRRM and he's provided them a basic outline so they know what plot points they have to hit.


----------



## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> i just finished reading the thread, and didn't see anyone else answer - i assumed he's following dany's advice to find a greyscale cure, and has turned to the maestors at the citadel. there are online predictions from viewers who noticed this in the premier (tv guide):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ah, that makes sense. We do know there is at least one way to halt the progression of the disease given that Shireen's was halted. We also know her father Stannis tried numerous "cures." Here's hoping Jorah gets help soon because he was looking awfully crusty....

tta


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Did anyone else suspect that topknot guy might actually BE the Lord of Light? He's the one that performs the resurrection ceremony. Maybe the "Someone special" isn't the High Priest. And it was strange how the Hound became psychic.


I did not think that. Seems too low key.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Philosofy said:


> Did anyone else suspect that topknot guy might actually BE the Lord of Light? He's the one that performs the resurrection ceremony. Maybe the "Someone special" isn't the High Priest. And it was strange how the Hound became psychic.


Stannis also saw things in the fire, I believe. The Lord of Light shows people things when he needs them to "believe", I guess. It seems that Clegane and his band of merry men need to go help...argh...what's his name? the Wilding guy who loves Brienne to defend the Castle.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not sure anybody's aware Danaerys has landed yet. Jaime and Cersei knew she was on the way and were speculating on where she would land, but that's about it, isn't it? And since she landed on an uninhabited island, it stands to reason nobody _will _know until she makes her move (whatever that turns out to be).


That was a strange thing - the island being uninhabited. Here's this great castle and no homeless people take advantage? why?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Stannis also saw things in the fire, I believe. The Lord of Light shows people things when he needs them to "believe", I guess.


Or maybe it's the priests who show people what they (the priests) think they need to believe?

Stannis seemed to see not what was true, but what Melisandre wanted to be true. Maybe Thoros is doing the same for the Mutt?


Anubys said:


> That was a strange thing - the island being uninhabited. Here's this great castle and no homeless people take advantage? why?


Probably because there's nothing there. The only way you could survive is by having peasants on the mainland growing food for you, and sea-truckers to bring it to you...


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

Philosofy said:


> And it was strange how the Hound became psychic.


Huh? What'd I miss.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

heySkippy said:


> Say what? I usually mute my phone and leave it on the computer desk while I'm watching TV. What am I missing?


Unless I'm being zoomed, he is talking about reading text messages on phones on the screen.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Huh? What'd I miss.


You didn't see him looking in the flames and seeing things? They didn't show what he saw but he described The Wall.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

BeanMeScot said:


> You didn't see him looking in the flames and seeing things? They didn't show what he saw but he described The Wall.


Ok. I didn't consider that psychic I guess.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Anubys said:


> That was a strange thing - the island being uninhabited. Here's this great castle and no homeless people take advantage? why?


Its a castle on a rock island. No food, no farming, no way to support livestock. Without shipments of food, there's no reason to be there.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Anubys said:


> That was a strange thing - the island being uninhabited. Here's this great castle and no homeless people take advantage? why?


In addition to what was already said, it's the castle where Stannis lived until he took his forces north of the Wall to save Jon & Co. Since it's quite a ways off shore and most people don't have boats, it's a safe bet that the majority of "homeless" people would have no idea the castle had been vacated.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

smak said:


> It seemed to me that at the end of last season The Masters didn't realize they were THAT big. I think when the thought they were about to be back in charge, they said to go fetch and kill them, which obviously wasn't going to happen.
> 
> Maybe other people are the same, even if they know they are out there, they don't realize just how big they are.
> 
> -smak-


That makes sense, especially since they were so small when they went extinct.


----------



## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Plus Ed Sheeran is better cast as a hobbit.


He could have had a cameo where he picked up a big rock and under it are all the TCF posters who live there who have no idea who he is.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or maybe it's the priests who show people what they (the priests) think they need to believe?
> 
> Stannis seemed to see not what was true, but what Melisandre wanted to be true. Maybe Thoros is doing the same for the Mutt?


That's an interesting take...I had not considered that.

I will hasten to add, though, that Stannis saw a big battle in the snow. We don't know if he was even involved and we don't know if he was even supposed to win. IOW, we don't know how much he saw and how much was his own assumptions and interpretations.


----------



## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

fmowry said:


> He could have had a cameo where he picked up a big rock and under it are all the TCF posters who live there who have no idea who he is.


I recognize the name as a singer, I have no idea what he sings, or what he looks like.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

SullyND said:


> I recognize the name as a singer, I have no idea what he sings, or what he looks like.


Of that I only know he looks like a hobbit based on seeing him on this show. I still have no idea what he sings nor why I should care.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jakerock said:


> Of that I only know he looks like a hobbit based on seeing him on this show. I still have no idea what he sings nor why I should care.


I didn't even realize it was him until reading here. So for me, it didn't take me out of anything (other than thinking about it now, and the relevance to the plot line, it feels that the scene was written for him, outside of the last line of the scene where Arya says she's going to kill the queen, the scene was useless. And, we already knew she was on Arya's list.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Well, I think she initially was going to kill them (she eyed their weapons early in the encounter), but she realized that some Lannister soldiers are just normal people being forced to be a soldier.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

jakerock said:


> Of that I only know he looks like a hobbit based on seeing him on this show. I still have no idea what he sings nor why I should care.


He looked like Seth Rogen to me!

OTOH, I did love the song. So for those who follow him, please post here if he records it or if it becomes available somehow (through HBO or something). Thanks!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> Well, I think she initially was going to kill them (she eyed their weapons early in the encounter), but she realized that some Lannister soldiers are just normal people being forced to be a soldier.


Exactly. The scene wasn't there for him; he was squeezed into the scene. But it was a quietly significant scene for Arya (the first time we've seen her be something other than a stone-cold psychopath in quite a while).


----------



## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Exactly. The scene wasn't there for him; he was squeezed into the scene. But it was a quietly significant scene for Arya (the first time we've seen her be something other than a stone-cold psychopath in quite a while).


I can't be the only one who expected to see Arya riding away from the camp leaving behind a pile of Lannister soldiers who she slaughtered while they slept.

Heck, I'm still half expecting to see that next episode.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Anubys said:


> That was a strange thing - the island being uninhabited...why?


airbnb doesn't work as well by raven?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> That was a strange thing - the island being uninhabited. Here's this great castle and no homeless people take advantage? why?


What bugged me is that Jamie was pretty sure she'd land at Dragonstone. Seemed pretty sure. Why didn't the Lanisters send a few boats and booby-trap the place? Or destroy it? Or take that cool stone table back home? Or destroy it?

I mean they could have easily gotten there first and prevented her from having an HQ where she could "Shall we begin?" within 10 minutes of arriving.


----------



## Saturn_V (Jun 2, 2007)

getbak said:


> I can't be the only one who expected to see Arya riding away from the camp leaving behind a pile of Lannister soldiers who she slaughtered while they slept.
> 
> Heck, I'm still half expecting to see that next episode.


That would redeem that entirely unnecessary scene. It didn't ring true with me after seeing six seasons of Lannister soldiers portrayed as being bags of d**cks, to see this friendly, chummy and musical group.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Saturn_V said:


> That would redeem that entirely unnecessary scene. It didn't ring true with me after seeing six seasons of Lannister soldiers portrayed as being bags of d**cks, to see this friendly, chummy and musical group.


maybe they joined during king tommen's reign? they could have been casterly rock's first religious rock group...


----------



## ozzman73 (Nov 27, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> There was a 0% chance of me noticing it but apparently Sansa was sporting Cersie's hairdo in this episode. Dun dun DUNNN!
> 
> The Unsettling Thing You Missed In The 'Game Of Thrones' Premiere | HuffPost


She is not the only one. Arya is rocking the Ned Stark do. Cersei is emulating Tywin. And in the last two cases, they are even dressing like the people who they emulate.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> That would redeem that entirely unnecessary scene. It didn't ring true with me after seeing six seasons of Lannister soldiers portrayed as being bags of d**cks, to see this friendly, chummy and musical group.


Agreed.

... and I just barely know that singer guy (from appearances on the Today Show) so when I saw him I spent the next 10 minutes with half my brain doing the "where do I know him from?" thing. I hated it. I think it was a poor decision by whichever bigwig made the decision. I hope they take the feedback they're getting seriously.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

ozzman73 said:


> She is not the only one. Arya is rocking the Ned Stark do. Cersei is emulating Tywin. And in the last two cases, they are even dressing like the people who they emulate.


seeing arya riding the trail with her long dark hair, i thought of lady catelyn.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

The stand-out dopiness of the Arya scene to me was she rode up to within 10 feet of a group of soldiers, and it wasn't until her horse neighed that they look up and are like, oh hi there, armed stranger!


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Agreed.
> 
> ... and I just barely know that singer guy (from appearances on the Today Show) so when I saw him I spent the next 10 minutes with half my brain doing the "where do I know him from?" thing. I hated it. I think it was a poor decision by whichever bigwig made the decision. I hope they take the feedback they're getting seriously.


I also vaguely thought he looked familiar, but that happens a lot - lots of actors will appear on various shows/movies/etc., so for all I knew, he could have been on some other British show that I've watched, or maybe he had a role on Law & Order, or was some minor character in one of the Harry Potter movies.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> The stand-out dopiness of the Arya scene to me was she rode up to within 10 feet of a group of soldiers, and it wasn't until her horse neighed that they look up and are like, oh hi there, armed stranger!


Ed Sheeran's songs are THAT good!


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> That would redeem that entirely unnecessary scene. It didn't ring true with me after seeing six seasons of Lannister soldiers portrayed as being bags of d**cks, to see this friendly, chummy and musical group.


I dunno, there are good people caught up in lots of bad jobs, that didn't bug me nearly as much as the Sam "working in a coal mine" montage that felt completely out of place.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I was imagining where she'd get all the poison, mix it into the wine, get the wine into 20 pitchers, keep those safe until needed, etc.
> 
> So yes, I just suspended disbelief on the whole thing. I can imagine a lot of "Walder is acting especially weird" statements from family and staff.


For the poison, she could have re-used her serving-girl persona to slip into the cellar and poison the wine barrel that Walder held in reserve for special occasions (and no one else would dare drink from). And any assassin worth her salt would know how to mix a poison from readily available sources.

See, lots of possible explanations; but without actually seeing any of that setup, it's hard to swallow the whole thing as a _fait accompli_.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> I dunno, there are good people caught up in lots of bad jobs, that didn't bug me nearly as much as the Sam "working in a coal mine" montage that felt completely out of place.


out of place for got, but extremely effective, for me anyways...i ffwd through the segment on my 2nd viewing, only because sam's gagging was too realistic.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> I also vaguely thought he looked familiar, but that happens a lot - lots of actors will appear on various shows/movies/etc., so for all I knew, he could have been on some other British show that I've watched, or maybe he had a role on Law & Order, or was some minor character in one of the Harry Potter movies.


Gotcha, but I recognized him enough to know he isn't an actor, so it took me to a more disruptive place than normal.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> out of place for got, but extremely effective, for me anyways...i ffwd through the segment on my 2nd viewing, only because sam's gagging was too realistic.


I think my problem with the scene was it just went on too long. Show Sam cleaning up stuff and that's enough. We got the point.


----------



## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> The stand-out dopiness of the Arya scene to me was she rode up to within 10 feet of a group of soldiers, and it wasn't until her horse neighed that they look up and are like, oh hi there, armed stranger!


I thought that was to illustrate her ninjaness.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robin said:


> I thought that was to illustrate her ninjaness.


Arya: "Stupid horse. If not for you, I could have been finished eating their food before they noticed me!"


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

The Hound is left for dead and the next time we see him he's helping a guy named Ray build a church.

In this episode, he seemed pretty interested in why Berric Dondarian believed he was chosen to be brought back to life.

He now sees visions in the fire.

I'm guessing that The Hound was dead and Ray brought him back.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

The people that died in the cottage are the ones that nursed him back. And he paid them back by stealing all their money.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> The people that died in the cottage are the ones that nursed him back. And he paid them back by stealing all their money.


They didn't nurse him back after he was left for dead, because he was still with Arya as he left their cottage, and it was Arya and Brienne who left him for dead.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I had that out of order then. The Brothers without Banners must have found him then and he might or might not have been dead.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

JoeyJoJo said:


> I'm guessing that The Hound was dead and Ray brought him back.


I don't think so. That was a septon of the 7, not a priest of the Lord Of Light. As far as we've seen only the LOL priests do resurrections.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> Well, I think sure initially was going to kill them (she eyed their weapons early in the encounter), but she realized that some Lannister soldiers are just normal people being forced to be a soldier.


No! It is not possible that there was actually a story point there. It was just thrown in for stunt casting.

At least that's what I learned here.

I saw it the way you did.

So, it was Ed Sheerhan. I recognized him but I also recognized Jim Broadbent in the same episode. Big deal.


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Agreed.
> 
> ... and I just barely know that singer guy (from appearances on the Today Show) so when I saw him I spent the next 10 minutes with half my brain doing the "where do I know him from?" thing. I hated it. I think it was a poor decision by whichever bigwig made the decision. I hope they take the feedback they're getting seriously.


Do you do this with every actor???? Why is it different because he is a singer?


----------



## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> For the poison, she could have re-used her serving-girl persona to slip into the cellar and poison the wine barrel that Walder held in reserve for special occasions (and no one else would dare drink from). And any assassin worth her salt would know how to mix a poison from readily available sources.
> 
> See, lots of possible explanations; but without actually seeing any of that setup, it's hard to swallow the whole thing as a _fait accompli_.


Yup. Show all that and then the scene loses its impact. WHY do we need to see everything that was done to set something up.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> I had that out of order then. The Brothers without Banners must have found him then and he might or might not have been dead.


he was only MOSTLY dead...


----------



## JoeyJoJo (Sep 29, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> I don't think so. That was a septon of the 7, not a priest of the Lord Of Light. As far as we've seen only the LOL priests do resurrections.





Ray said:


> _Oh, there's plenty of pious sons of *****es who think they know the word of god, or gods. I don't. I don't know their real names. Maybe it is the Seven. Or maybe it's the Old Gods. Or maybe it's the Lord of Light, or maybe they're all the same ****ing thing. I don't know. What matters, I believe, is that there's something greater than us. And whatever it is, it's got plans for Sandor Clegane._"


----------



## Mike2001 (Apr 2, 2004)

When I first saw this I thought it was Jon and Sansa, but upon closer look it's two woman. Who are these 2?


Spoiler


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I think you have posted a spoiler from the preview for upcoming episodes. You should probably delete that or at least put it in spoiler tags.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Spoiler



The one on the right is Ellaria Sand (mother of the Sand Snakes). The one on the left looks like Catelyn Stark, but I'm pretty sure she was dead before we ever met Ellaria.



And now that I see it's an image from an upcoming trailer, I've spoilerized my answer.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DevdogAZ said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The one on the right is Ellaria Sand (mother of the Sand Snakes). The one on the left looks like Catelyn Stark, but I'm pretty sure she was dead before we ever met Ellaria.





Spoiler



It is Yara Greyjoy and Ellaria Sand


----------



## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

If you can, please do spoiler that pic. I spent a bit of time trying to think of the names and then thought, "oh I might not really want to know that yet." 

Thanks!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The one on the left looks like


Spoiler



the Iron Islands exile, who lost the throne to her uncle. [Googles] Yara Greyjoy.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I think my problem with the scene was it just went on too long. Show Sam cleaning up stuff and that's enough. We got the point.


Exactly. He had to do 3 minutes of cleaning to gain access to the restricted books. We get it. Sheesh.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JoeyJoJo said:


> The Hound is left for dead and the next time we see him he's helping a guy named Ray build a church.
> 
> In this episode, he seemed pretty interested in why Berric Dondarian believed he was chosen to be brought back to life.
> 
> ...


Interesting... I like it.

The Hound knows death. He knows battle wounds. He knew he was dying. And then hey! He's healthy enough to carry a tree on his back, chop wood for days on end, and kill 4 soldiers without breaking a sweat.

Easy to picture Berric and Hair Bun finding him, recognizing and reviving him, and using him for muscle in their fight against Ice Man.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Do you do this with every actor???? Why is it different because he is a singer?


Because singers aren't actors? Other than J-Lo, Timberlake, Jennifer Hudson, Harry Connick Jr., LL Cool J, Eminem, Meatloaf, P-Diddy, Ludacris, Mos Def, Beyonce, Madonna, Cher, Queen Latifah, Will Smith, Mark Walhberg, Elvis Presley, Tim McGraw, Mandy Moore, Ice Cube, Dolly Parton, Barbra Streisand, Frank Sinatra...

But other then them. 

Thousands and thousands of viewers shared my sentiments on this. He was placed simply because he's a famous singer and someone on the set liked him. It distracted us viewers, took us out of the show. We didn't like it.

Here's How Twitter Reacted to Ed Sheeran's Cameo in Game of Thrones


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

TonyD79 said:


> Yup. Show all that and then the scene loses its impact. WHY do we need to see everything that was done to set something up.


We don't need to see it. We do, however, need to question it. It's what we do here.

And I like the answer. I didn't, but can now see how the wine could be in a large barrel, kept somewhere only Walder has access. That would make the logistics much simpler.

We're just commenting on how much behind the scenes had to be planned and go perfectly for her plan to work. There certainly could have been Frey's out roaming Westeros, or sick at home, or late to the party, or stepped out to poop...

The thought she got all the Frey's is unlikely. However, if the Lannisters took over The Twins her work is probably complete. I missed that (due to trying to figure out who that singer dude was in the scene where Arya sneaks up on a bunch of trained soldiers).


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> However, if the Lannisters took over The Twins her work is probably complete. I missed that (due to trying to figure out who that singer dude was in the scene where Arya sneaks up on a bunch of trained soldiers).


I think he might be thinking of Rivurrun, which Jaime took late last season?


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think he might be thinking of Rivurrun, which Jaime took late last season?


Oh, well that I knew. I thought Anubys said upstream that the Lannisters took The Twins. I'm hoping Jon can somehow secure them. Hopefully not Littlefinger.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Oh, well that I knew. I thought Anubys said upstream that the Lannisters took The Twins. I'm hoping Jon can somehow secure them. Hopefully not Littlefinger.


Just watched it again. The Lannister men are en route to The Twins "to keep the peace" as there's been reported trouble up there.

She likes them. She won't be killing them. One guy wants to be on a boat with his dad, one just had a baby and doesn't know if it's a boy or girl. She likes them.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I have this thought... not sure if it's worth anything... or how to frame it... but the discussion above whether the Hound perhaps died and was brought back or not... made me think:

We know about the Wights, the dead of the North who come back as ice zombies. But we have (at least) two zombies in the South: Jon Snow & Beric Dondarrion. The only difference is they were brought back by fire (the Lord of Light is a fire god, and they worship fire) instead of ice. Everyone always talks about the undead of the north, but there are undead staring them in the face down south too. And while everyone acknowledges they were dead, you never hear the conversation framed as "we have undead people also". Now admittedly the southern undead aren't going around like psychotic zombies, but still, could there be a connection between the two undead peoples, the ice dead and the fire dead?

After all, it is called "A Song of Ice and Fire".


----------



## zordude (Sep 23, 2003)

astrohip said:


> After all, it is called "A Song of Ice and Fire".


No it's not, it's just called "Game of Thrones". 

I think a big difference is that the north zombies are "undead" and the south zombies are "back from the dead"


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

SullyND said:


> I recognize the name as a singer, I have no idea what he sings, or what he looks like.


People on twitter hated the singer appearance, said it took them out of the "reality" of the show.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Poor Sheeran deleted his Twitter account he was getting so much hatred.


----------



## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

he's back now, with a homepage message referring users to his instagram account - i'm sure twitter just loves this: 



> _I don't use this anymore, please follow me on __@*teddysphotos*__ on instagram, lots of love x_


----------



## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> Poor Sheeran deleted his Twitter account he was getting so much hatred.


Oh, the crazy, crazy Donald T fans.


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

dcheesi said:


> And any assassin worth her salt would know how to mix a poison from readily available sources.


She has taken Walder's place. Easy to believe Walder already had a stash of poison in case he needed it for something.



heySkippy said:


> I don't think so. That was a septon of the 7, not a priest of the Lord Of Light. As far as we've seen only the LOL priests do resurrections.


Right. It was Odin, I mean Brother Ray, who found him near death and nursed him back to health.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

tomhorsley said:


> She has taken Walder's place. Easy to believe Walder already had a stash of poison in case he needed it for something.


She also had a fortnight to prepare, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

zordude said:


> No it's not, it's just called "Game of Thrones".
> 
> I think a big difference is that the north zombies are "undead" and the south zombies are "back from the dead"


And the north zombies have no individual will and are under the control of the Night King, while the south zombies are functioning just like any normal pre-death person.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Walder was the lord of a family, one of the 7 "kings" in terms of status. He surely had his own Maester; who - in turn - has a ton of poisons. No big deal for Arya.

While I think Clegane coming back from the dead is plausible, I believe he and the priest talked about it and there was no discussion of doing that. The Priest was a war veteran and had seen his share of terrible injuries and nursed him back to health. Jon Snow knew that he was dead. He even described what it's like to be dead. So Clegane would know if he were brought back to life.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Walder was the lord of a family, one of the 7 "kings" in terms of status.


No, he wasn't. That was what pissed him off and led him to his murderous rampage...he hated being subordinate to the Tullys, who WERE one of the seven former royal families.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Anubys said:


> Walder was the lord of a family, one of the 7 "kings" in terms of status. He surely had his own Maester; who - in turn - has a ton of poisons. No big deal for Arya.
> 
> While I think Clegane coming back from the dead is plausible, I believe he and the priest talked about it and there was no discussion of doing that. The Priest was a war veteran and had seen his share of terrible injuries and nursed him back to health. Jon Snow knew that he was dead. He even described what it's like to be dead. So Clegane would know if he were brought back to life.


Besides, if the Hound came back from the dead, I'd think that he'd occasionally go "Yarp".


----------



## ACoolDude (Dec 11, 2001)

Johncv said:


> People on twitter hated the singer appearance, said it took them out of the "reality" of the show.


I felt the same way with Sibel Kekilli, since she was a former pron star - and I kept expecting her to get naked - oh, wait, ... maybe not the best example


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Johncv said:


> People on twitter hated the singer appearance, said it took them out of the "reality" of the show.


People here feel that way too.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> No, he wasn't. That was what pissed him off and led him to his murderous rampage...he hated being subordinate to the Tullys, who WERE one of the seven former royal families.


oh, I did not know that...but he would still have a Maester, though, right?

One thing not clear is where the Baratheon's family and land is.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Anubys said:


> One thing not clear is where the Baratheon's family and land is.


I don't think there is a Baratheon family any more. But before the Rebellion, here was the political map...


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Awesome map. I always forget that The North goes all the way from shore to shore. And that Iron Islands are off the Western shore. That makes it a long trip to Slavers Bay.... And that Oldtown is in The Reach--you'd think they'd have their own little area sort of like the Vatican. 

Storm's End is the Baratheons, right? So are their people still living there? Have the Lannisters taken it over? Then they would go coast to coast too.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Awesome map. I always forget that The North goes all the way from shore to shore. And that Iron Islands are off the Western shore. That makes it a long trip to Slavers Bay.... And that Oldtown is in The Reach--you'd think they'd have their own little area sort of like the Vatican.
> 
> Storm's End is the Baratheons, right? So are their people still living there? Have the Lannisters taken it over? Then they would go coast to coast too.


There must be people there, but only vassals. No people that count. They haven't talked about the Baratheon's legacy on the show, so we don't really know what's going on in Storm's End. And the books haven't made it that far.

It doesn't quite go coast to coast, Highgarden (the Tyrells) is in the middle.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

BeanMeScot said:


> Poor Sheeran deleted his Twitter account he was getting so much hatred.


He closed his Twitter a couple of weeks ago.

I have no problem with Ed and some of the hatred is dumb. Didn't take me out of the moment (the stupid Samwell scene did). Ed has a significant role in Bastard Executioner.


----------



## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

Saturn_V said:


> That would redeem that entirely unnecessary scene. It didn't ring true with me *after seeing six seasons of Lannister soldiers portrayed as being bags of d**cks, to see this friendly, chummy and musical group.*


So every single one of the thousands of Lannister soldiers over the years is a bag of dicks?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

frombhto323 said:


> So every single one of the thousands of Lannister soldiers over the years is a bag of dicks?


No. But every single one that we have seen on the show - until this scene with Arya - absolutely fit that description.


----------



## sbourgeo (Nov 10, 2000)

astrohip said:


> I have this thought... not sure if it's worth anything... or how to frame it... but the discussion above whether the Hound perhaps died and was brought back or not... made me think:
> 
> We know about the Wights, the dead of the North who come back as ice zombies. But we have (at least) two zombies in the South: Jon Snow & Beric Dondarrion. The only difference is they were brought back by fire (the Lord of Light is a fire god, and they worship fire) instead of ice. Everyone always talks about the undead of the north, but there are undead staring them in the face down south too. And while everyone acknowledges they were dead, you never hear the conversation framed as "we have undead people also". Now admittedly the southern undead aren't going around like psychotic zombies, but still, could there be a connection between the two undead peoples, the ice dead and the fire dead?
> 
> After all, it is called "A Song of Ice and Fire".


Interesting idea, but how does Benjen Stark fit into that theory? He's not alive, but he's not a mindless Wight either.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

Anubys said:


> No. But every single one that we have seen on the show - until this scene with Arya - absolutely fit that description.


But, I think that is the point. In most cases, we have only seen Lannister soldier who need to fill the "boogyman" role. They typically are either commanders that are leading men. This scene portrayed just some men who, because they are male, were required to become soldiers. They have families at home and probably just trying to stay alive. They have no particular dog in the fight. Going back to last season, how many people/slaves were on the Master's ships when the dragons torched them. Part of war, yes. But most of them were probably innocent people just being required to do a job. (There is a great scene in Clerks (I think, but I can't remember for sure) when the main characters talk about the Rebel Alliance blowing up the new Death Star in Return of the Jedi. How many people aboard the unfinished Death Star were just construction workers? Did they deserve to die just because they were given a job to do?)

The more I thought about it, this scene reminded me a little bit of an episode of ST:TNG called "Lower Decks". It was about characters that were not part of the main crew and how their daily lives went. On the Enterprise, there were over 1000 people and the show focused on 7 with maybe 5-10 re-occuring characters. The episode showed that other people existed and were a big part of the daily operations. We just never got to meet them. Same thing with this scene.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> But, I think that is the point. In most cases, we have only seen Lannister soldier who need to fill the "boogyman" role. They typically are either commanders that are leading men. This scene portrayed just some men who, because they are male, were required to become soldiers. They have families at home and probably just trying to stay alive. They have no particular dog in the fight. Going back to last season, how many people/slaves were on the Master's ships when the dragons torched them. Part of war, yes. But most of them were probably innocent people just being required to do a job. (There is a great scene in Clerks (I think, but I can't remember for sure) when the main characters talk about the Rebel Alliance blowing up the new Death Star in Return of the Jedi. How many people aboard the unfinished Death Star were just construction workers? Did they deserve to die just because they were given a job to do?)


We rarely get to see the "regular" people of Westeros except when they are either starving on the streets or when they a screaming in protest at one of the Lannisters. I'm sure there are plenty of "regular" people who just live their lives and whoever is in power makes no difference to them. Just like here. What WILL end up mattering to them is if the Zombies of the north attack and kill everything in their wake.
The more I thought about it, this scene reminded me a little bit of an episode of ST:TNG called "Lower Decks". It was about characters that were not part of the main crew and how their daily lives went. On the Enterprise, there were over 1000 people and the show focused on 7 with maybe 5-10 re-occuring characters. The episode showed that other people existed and were a big part of the daily operations. We just never got to meet them. Same thing with this scene.


----------



## frombhto323 (Jan 24, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> But, *I think that is the poin*t. In most cases, we have only seen Lannister soldier who need to fill the "boogyman" role. They typically are either commanders that are leading men. This scene portrayed just some men who, because they are male, *were required *to become soldiers. They have families at home and probably just trying to stay alive. They have no particular dog in the fight. Going back to last season, how many people/slaves were on the Master's ships when the dragons torched them. Part of war, yes. But most of them were probably innocent people just being required to do a job. (There is a great scene in Clerks (I think, but I can't remember for sure) when the main characters talk about the Rebel Alliance blowing up the new Death Star in Return of the Jedi. How many people aboard the unfinished Death Star were just construction workers? Did they deserve to die just because they were given a job to do?)
> 
> The more I thought about it, this scene reminded me a little bit of an episode of ST:TNG called "Lower Decks". It was about characters that were not part of the main crew and how their daily lives went. On the Enterprise, there were over 1000 people and the show focused on 7 with maybe 5-10 re-occuring characters. The episode showed that other people existed and were a big part of the daily operations. We just never got to meet them. Same thing with this scene.


That is the point. "Required" is the operative word here.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

frombhto323 said:


> That is the point. "Required" is the operative word here.


...and I believe it's the wrong word. From the conversation, it seemed that joining the military is a choice; one that they regret making.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I think all the Starks learn of the others' non-dead status within the first 10 minute of the next episode. Those ravens are like Facebook. News spreads fast.


Sansa knows about Arya from Brienne, and Jon knows about Bran from Sam. I'm assuming at some point they told each other about their siblings, so they both likely already know about all the ones who are still alive. Bran maybe knows about everyone via his magic tree powers. So it's probably just Arya who is in the dark. And even then, it might only be about Bran.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Exactly. The scene wasn't there for him; he was squeezed into the scene. But it was a quietly significant scene for Arya (the first time we've seen her be something other than a stone-cold psychopath in quite a while).


It also presented a potential conundrum for Arya. When she said she was going to kill the Queen, if they had felt bound by duty to arrest her, she would have had to decide whether to attack these people who had showed kindness to her or allow herself to be taken captive.

I enjoyed the tension that existed between the moment that she revealed her plan and their response of not taking it seriously. I also enjoyed the tension of wondering what would happen with these Lannister soldiers before we found out that they were friendly.



uncdrew said:


> I am very much here for GOT scenes where a group of strangers don't turn out to be totally awful (not to mention respectful of the legal Westerosi drinking age), but I spent the whole time wondering when someone was going to stab someone else and then being confused when no one did.


Part of what keeps Game of Thrones suspenseful is that sometimes nothing surprising happens. If every scene with Arya and a group of stangers ended up with them trying to attack her, we would start to expect that. The fact that there are scenes where that doesn't happen makes the scenes where it does that much more unpredictable.



Anubys said:


> ...and I believe it's the wrong word. From the conversation, it seemed that joining the military is a choice; one that they regret making.


I agree that "required" is probably the wrong word. But I also think it was less of a free choice of wanting to fight for their lord, and more of a "I need to feed my family, and this my best option".

Whether or not they are bad people has less to do with the army for which they are fighting, and more to do with how they handle what power they have.

We also saw (in Season 2) 3 women that had been hanged (and one likely also raped) by soldiers in Robb Stark's army because they "lay with lions".


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

No argument here...any time you have a volunteer army, it will be disproportionately comprised or poor(er) people since they have a lot fewer* options in life.






* I almost wrote "less" so all the Stannises on TCF can have a field day correcting it


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

One thing I found interesting was that the Targaryen sigil was still at Dragonstone. I would have thought the Baratheons would have replaced it with their own.


----------



## kaszeta (Jun 11, 2004)

BitbyBlit said:


> One thing I found interesting was that the Targaryen sigil was still at Dragonstone. I would have thought the Baratheons would have replaced it with their own.


Maybe all the good masons got killed in Robert's Rebellion.


----------

