# BBC Scheduling Complaints



## simon (Oct 7, 2002)

Does anyone still bother to complain to the BBC about the continued and constant scheduling errors? I'm not talking about schedule changes, I'm talking about the deliberate 1-2 minute overruns that occur at prime-time daily.

If we don't complain, they won't change it.

Are the new generation of PVRs resilient to this, or is it a problem they suffer from too?

Go complain

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

Simon


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Yeah, I don't think it'll make any difference. All you will get is that they do have a schedule; just not the one they publish, which is rounded down or up to the nearest five mins


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## mesaka (Sep 27, 2002)

A way round the problem, assuming your TiVo is acked, is to use endpad. I rarely have the issue now I have added an extra 2 minutes on both ends of the programme.


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## simon (Oct 7, 2002)

mesaka said:


> A way round the problem, assuming your TiVo is acked, is to use endpad. I rarely have the issue now I have added an extra 2 minutes on both ends of the programme.


My TiVo isnt hacked, but I don't think endpad would solve my specific problem : its to do with the mrs and Eastenders and Corrie, which invariably are on one after the other, and invaribably overrun

Simon


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## Fozzie (Sep 3, 2001)

Endpad with negative padding could help you...


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I assume also that you don't have Digital TV? Both shows are repeated on their respective 'other' channels (BBC3 and ITV2). I think that Freeview boxes start from around £30. Is that a fair price to keep the Mrs happy?


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## Ian_m (Jan 9, 2001)

simon said:


> My TiVo isnt hacked, but I don't think endpad would solve my specific problem : its to do with the mrs and Eastenders and Corrie, which invariably are on one after the other, and invaribably overrun


You record Corrie normal time with padding either end, and Eastenders at 10pm on BBC3 with padding and everyones happy (actutally don't record Corrie and also I pad with endpad, but you get the idea).


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## OzSat (Feb 15, 2001)

Both EastEnders and Coronation Street are repeat - so SPs with padding for BBC1, BBC3, ITV1 and ITV2 should get everything.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

FWIW (and it's not much) I doubt the terrestrial broadcasters will ever run to time.
They seem to believe that it locks you into their channel if you miss the beginning of a show on another channel 
Frankly the amount of overrun on BBC2 accumulated before Newsnight takes the mickey - it's particularly irritating if you have consecutive BBC2 and BBC1 recordings.

Thankfully endpad helps. Video on demand (Telewest Teleport and Homechoice) coupled with BBC initiatives like the their advance showing of stuff from BBC3 online should make this less of a deal (e.g. "2 pints of lager..." http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/)

To answer your question "Are the new generation of PVRs resilient to this, or is it a problem they suffer from too?"
I think that only the 2 tuner variants have any hope and I've not heard of a reliable one yet.


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## =CM= (Feb 22, 2005)

AMc said:


> FWIW (and it's not much) I doubt the terrestrial broadcasters will ever run to time.
> They seem to believe that it locks you into their channel if you miss the beginning of a show on another channel
> Frankly the amount of overrun on BBC2 accumulated before Newsnight takes the mickey


That's to fit in the end of the "10" on BBC1 including the weather (as Jeremy sneered too much when NN tried to do weather!). Mix of considering the punter too dumb to handle times other than the full hour and 1/2 hour and allowing for people to catch the headlines on "10" before escaping to BBC2's parallel offering.

Of course many years ago tv times were :10, :25, :40 and people seemed to have somehow managed. I blame the kids of nowadays <oldcodger mode...>



AMc said:


> To answer your question "Are the new generation of PVRs resilient to this, or is it a problem they suffer from too?"
> I think that only the 2 tuner variants have any hope and I've not heard of a reliable one yet.


That's the clincher: eventually with dual tuners, mux recording etc, we won't give an orangutan's derriere when they schedule anything at all. It'll be "select from the menu" and this fake hour/half-hour scheduling will vanish; in fact all scheduling apart from live stuff will vanish. I can only hope that technology will also fix the other Great Dumbing Down irritation: the DOG! (on-screen station icon.)


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## mrtickle (Aug 26, 2001)

Time to repost this attachment I think, which came from a friendly insider at the BBC.

Every time in red is where a programme is outside its timeslot and would be truncated by a recording device, or would make back-to-back recordings on other channels impossible without missing something. There are more channels than just BBC1 and BBC2 in this world, and the Newsnight example caters only for that one junction in time and the one combination of channel-change!

Perhaps they might have a case for one junction per day - Newsnight starting late - but not every single programme after 6pm! There is no excuse; it is systematic, deliberate, and arrogant by the broadcaster.

They can solve the problem if they really wanted to by keeping to the published schedule. It really is that simple! BBC1's News & Weather can all be finished before 10:30! Every programme on every channel starting bang on time, with the 10 seconds before the start time being the continuity announcement! Other countries manage it perfectly . Goodness knows the BBC show enough trailers and pompous self-promotion these days that they could easily pad exactly to the timeslots where required. It's got to be easier than designing the whole day's schedule towards the target of Newsnight starting 2m 30s late, and screw all the other programmes in the process


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## BrianHughes (Jan 21, 2001)

With BBC I add an extra 5 mins but with the Irish channels RTE1 & 2 you have to add at least 15mins. I usually add 30mins. BBC is bad but RTE is just unbelievable.


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## simon (Oct 7, 2002)

ozsat said:


> Both EastEnders and Coronation Street are repeat - so SPs with padding for BBC1, BBC3, ITV1 and ITV2 should get everything.


Yip, I'm aware of that but the mrs wouldn't (and shouldn't have to) tolerate that. I don't have a tendency to complain about too many things, but I think this one is ridiculous, and there is absolutely no excuse for not running to time.

Maybe it is time to start hacking, get the -ve endpad into operation...

Thx


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## simon (Oct 7, 2002)

mrtickle said:


> Attached Files bbc2_050104.pdf (43.9 KB, 0 views)


Very interesting attachment, it would be interesting to see a current version of it...

S.


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

The BBC *do* have some clocks that are correct but they all seem to be in the Radio studios rather than Television Centre. Radio programs always seem to be on time.


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## simon (Oct 7, 2002)

Just heard back from the BBC - surprisingly they actually understood that I didn't mean the 5 minute listing problem! (although they did explain that to me)

It was a comprehensive reply, and in summary they said that program makers sometimes overrun their scheduled quota of minutes, and there's nothing much the BBC can do about that.

They also said that unlike commercial TV they haven't got so much time pre-allocated to filler, which I suppose is a fair point.

So I replied to ask if this is the case, how come they are so good at starting the 6pm news on time, and switching out to local newsrooms and back perfecyly in synch.

I also asked for confirmation that this overrun was accidental rather than deliberate - it'll be interesting to see how that comes back.

*Get complaining * - remember all complaints are summarised and fed to scheduling, and senior management. If they realise loads of people are going out buying PVR's which aren't compatible with their schedule inaccuracy they just might do something.

I am not going to post the text of the email, as it was marked confidential, and I have to respect that.


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## mrtickle (Aug 26, 2001)

simon said:


> Just heard back from the BBC - surprisingly they actually understood that I didn't mean the 5 minute listing problem! (although they did explain that to me)
> 
> It was a comprehensive reply, and in summary they said that program makers sometimes overrun their scheduled quota of minutes, and there's nothing much the BBC can do about that.


Hmm, true. I am suspicious however that the reply was built up from the same boilerplate answers they have given in the past. The most insulting was on Points of View in response to an episode of EastEnders which lasted something like 34 minutes. It both started early and finished late, and they could have easily scheduled it in a 35 min slot. They said "it was packed with so much drama that it burst out of its timeslot". This is the mentality we're dealing with.



> They also said that unlike commercial TV they haven't got so much time pre-allocated to filler, which I suppose is a fair point.


It's only a fair point if the reduced filler time they say they have isn't enough to pad so that the schedule runs to time! It's certainly NOT true for the BBC2 schedule on 5th Jan 2004, where there was a whopping 43 minutes of trailers in 20 total hours of broadcasting! With a few tweaks to the trailer times every programme that day could have been broadcast within its timeslot (except Stingray and the Simpsons, where the timeslot was actually impossible as it was shorter than the programme).



> So I replied to ask if this is the case, how come they are so good at starting the 6pm news on time, and switching out to local newsrooms and back perfecyly in synch.
> 
> I also asked for confirmation that this overrun was accidental rather than deliberate - it'll be interesting to see how that comes back.


Good stuff! They can do it when they want to. I expect they'll say that it's a carefully planned operation that they can't possibly be expected to do for every programme.


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

simon said:


> So I replied to ask if this is the case, how come they are so good at starting the 6pm news on time, and switching out to local newsrooms and back perfecyly in synch.


Part of the problem with keeping the networks to time is that they DO hit the 6 and 10 dead-on (ITV seldom started News at Ten precisely at Ten...) This means they have very little wiggle room between shows - especially those that are longer or shorter than their slot. They used to use the Six O'Clock News (and may still do) as a way of getting to the Ten O'Clock News on time - as they can tweak its duration daily (it doesn't have a completely fixed duration as the Ten usually does)

ISTR that when EastEnders went from 3 to 4 episodes a week (or was it 2 to 3) they didn't get quite the budget they wanted - so they ended up making slightly shorter episodes (a minute or two shorter than previously) - which meant to still get to the Nine (as it was then ISTR) on time they had to make the Six longer (regional news is always the same duration)

Live programmes over or under running can cause issues - as can programmes delivered late that are longer or shorter. However there IS still some tweaking done to try and get people to stay with a channel, or to hit junctions at the same time as other channels to allow people to switch cleanly (say to hit a spin-off show on BBC Three as the BBC One show finishes, or to get from the Ten to Newsnight)

PDC and/or accurate EPG triggered PVRs are a solution...


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## JeromeO'Donohoe (May 27, 2002)

match of the day started FIFTEEN minutes late last night. Does anyone know what happens on Sky+ in this situation?


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Well they were around 6 mins later going into "Casualty" due to the over-run of "Making Your Mind Up" so I assume that the rest was due to a similar over-run of "Just The Two of Us".

ISTR that the broadcaster can be penalised if the Sky EPG is wrong. Don't know specifics though.


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## JeromeO'Donohoe (May 27, 2002)

apparently the BBC updated the EPG and Sky+ boxes recorded the programme correctly. This only makes me more keen to switch!


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## Sneals2000 (Aug 25, 2002)

Yep - the BBC are one of the few broadcasters to have invested in the infrastructure to dynamically update the Sky EPG. BBC Sky + recordings should therefore cope with over and under runs if the EPG is correctly updated by the transmission area (or whoever does it)

Not sure what happens on DTT - under the old OnDigital system I think there was a lot of lag between broadcasters sending EPG info and it actually getting broadcast - as it was distributed independently of the broadcast video, and inserted at the transmitters?


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## manolan (Feb 13, 2001)

Of course, the BBC are publishing an accurate programme schedule as part of one of the research projects. I forget which, but it includes XML files with the actual programme start and end times.


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## =CM= (Feb 22, 2005)

Sneals2000 said:


> [dynamically update the EPG]
> Not sure what happens on DTT - under the old OnDigital system I think there was a lot of lag between broadcasters sending EPG info and it actually getting broadcast - as it was distributed independently of the broadcast video, and inserted at the transmitters?


I've noticed that the channel change banner on the Philips DTT box controled by Tivo consistently lists the previous programme under Now and the current under Next, even when the current programme has commenced early and Tivo has jumped into the start. This matches with your mention of _a lot of lag_. It would certainly be enough for DTT-specific PVRs such as the Toppy & Humax to miss starts.

This is something I've seen sooo often especially on digital-only stations such as E4.

Memo to self: check what the Now/Next banner says at known wrong junctions such as the eternal "late/never at 22:30" Newsnight.


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