# Tivo Bolt + Moca + PS4 Question



## Player1138 (Oct 1, 2015)

Here is what I am trying to figure out.

Can I setup a Moca Network which connects Tivo Bolt directly to the internet via the Coax and then use the Ethernet port from my Bolt to my PS4 so the PS4 gets a hard wired connection as well.

So I assume the setup will go like this.

Cable Outlet In
to 
Moca Adapter
to 
Cable Modem
to 
Wireless Router

then downstairs

Tivo is already hooked up to cable via tuning adapter. W
from Tivo use ethernet to go from Bolt to PS4.

This seems to simple to actually work, but curious if anyone knows for sure.

Thanks.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Player1138 said:


> Here is what I am trying to figure out.
> 
> Can I setup a Moca Network which connects Tivo Bolt directly to the internet via the Coax and then use the Ethernet port from my Bolt to my PS4 so the PS4 gets a hard wired connection as well.


Yes the PS4 can connect to the Bolt's ethernet to piggyback the moca network connection.

In addition (if you don't already) make sure you have a splitter at the Bolt and Tuning Adapter. One leg feeds the Bolt, and the other leg feeding the TA. (This is because the moca signal can't pass through the TA.)


----------



## Player1138 (Oct 1, 2015)

So Tivo Bolt ethernet port can output? I just asked a Tivo Rep that on the online chat and they said no.

Thanks for the reply.

So in theory I only need one Moca adapter to setup.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Yep it will work, and 1 adapter is all you need.

The feature exists but it's not "officially" supported. I connect a Roku to a Bolt.


----------



## thyname (Dec 27, 2010)

Player1138 said:


> So Tivo Bolt ethernet port can output? I just asked a Tivo Rep that on the online chat and they said no.


Yes. It works. I use it myself with no issues. Bolt can act as bridge.

The TiVo rep told you otherwise because they don't support it officially. They are trained to tell you so.


----------



## Player1138 (Oct 1, 2015)

Did you have to do anything to get your Roku working? Or just tell it you have a wired connection?

Also do you notice that your speeds are near the upper end of what your interet provides?

Thanks again for the replies.

Might be worth a shot. Too bad no place seems to sell Moca in the store.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Nothing special. Setup the Bolt's moca connection first, then connect the PS4 afterwards.

I think I had to reboot the Bolt to get the Roku's connection to kick in.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Close!

*1. Establishing a MoCA network*

I've made some additional annotations clarifying ports and cable type for the *connections needed to initialize your MoCA network using a MoCA adapter at your modem/router*; also, you missed the Ethernet connection between the router's Ethernet LAN ports and the MoCA adapter.


Player1138 said:


> So I assume the setup will go like this.
> 
> Cable Outlet In
> ... *(coax)* to
> ...


See this TiVo connection diagram for an example...





​
One more thing you'll want/need to do to get your MoCA network setup properly -- both secured and strengthened -- is *add a "PoE" MoCA filter at your cable provider's point-of-entry* to your home. Typically, you install the PoE MoCA filter on the input to the first splitter connected to your provider's incoming coax line.

For more info on PoE MoCA filters, see:
"Why?" ... See this TiVo link: https://www.tivo.com/assets/popups/popup_moca_poe.html

"How?" ... See this PDF document from TiVo: https://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/mytivo/POE_Instructions_Web.pdf

e.g.: http://www.techtoolsupply.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=HOL-MPOE-TM​
*2. Connecting the BOLT to your MoCA network*



Player1138 said:


> then downstairs
> 
> Tivo is already hooked up to cable via tuning adapter
> from Tivo use ethernet to go from Bolt to PS4


As BigJimOutlaw communicated above, because the [aname="mocata"]tuning adapter doesn't pass MoCA signals through its TV/RF Out port[/aname], you'll need to *split the coax before the tuning adapter*, using a MoCA-compatible splitter, so that both the tuning adapter and the BOLT will have a direct connection to the coax lines.

Additionally, you should acquire a second PoE MoCA filter, but this *MoCA filter should be installed on the input to your tuning adapter*, to prevent MoCA signals from potentially interfering with your tuning adapter's operation.

See the following posts for more background/testimonials...


BigJimOutlaw said:


> For whatever reason, moca and tuning adapters do sometimes cause issues together. Mostly Time Warner folks are experiencing it. The easiest way to resolve is another POE filter on the TA.





CoxInPHX said:


> ...
> Installing the Cisco Tuning Adapter:
> ...
> *Using the TiVo's On-board MoCA networking:*
> ...



See the following diagram taken from the above-linked Cox tuning adapter installation guide demonstrating the necessary setup for connecting a tuning adapter and MoCA-connected DVR...





​
One last step before configuring the BOLT for MoCA is ensuring that the *Ethernet cable is disconnected from the BOLT*.

Once the BOLT is properly connected per the recommended tuning adapter configuration, and Ethernet is disconnected, you'd access the BOLT's Network Settings dialog and configure the BOLT to *"Connect using MoCA."*

Assuming your MoCA network is operating, and all cabling is hunky-dory, your BOLT should quickly recognize the connection and be networking.

*3. Extend Ethernet via BOLT*

Once the BOLT is connected via MoCA, you can connect an individual device to its Ethernet port, and the device should simply see it as any other Ethernet connection, grab an IP (if that's how the device is configured), and be online. w00t? Alternatively, if you have multiple Ethernet devices you'd like to connect via the BOLT, you can attach an isolated network switch to the BOLT, and then connect these other devices to the switch. Some people opt to hang an additional wireless access point off the BOLT, in this way, to extend wireless network coverage.

*4. Troubleshooting*

If you're having trouble establishing a MoCA connection, you may want to *review your coax infrastructure* and upgrade any splitters to MoCA-compatible equivalents, and identify any MoCA-hostile components such as amplifiers.

Once you've established a MoCA connection on the BOLT, you may want to *check the BOLT's MoCA stats*, compare them to specs, and document them as a baseline for comparison following any future network changes or disruptions.
See: Checking MoCA connection quality​
That's pretty much it, or at least what I can remember, at present.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

See also any of the following MoCA references for more info...


BigJimOutlaw's "Setting up a MoCA network for TiVo" thread, here on TCF (initial post is key reading; delve further if curious)

TiVo's newer "What is MoCA?" page
TiVo's older "What is MoCA?" page
TiVo's "How to connect your TiVo box to your network and the Internet" page
TiVo Support 'Moca Troubleshooting' document

Extreme Broadband's "MoCA Training" video (Youtube, 6min)
Extreme Broadband's "MoCA 101 Overview" video (Youtube, 11min)
Extreme Broadband's "MoCA Passive Devices" video (Youtube, 5min)
Extreme Broadband's "MoCA Active Devices" video (Youtube, 9min)


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Player1138 said:


> Also do you notice that your speeds are near the upper end of what your interet provides?


Given that both the BOLT and PS4 have Gigabit Ethernet ports, the throughput your PS4 will experience will be dependent on what MoCA adapter you choose, and the link rate of your router's Ethernet ports.

I can't imagine that you'd somehow have a router or MoCA adapter supporting anything less than 100 Mbps, so that is the minimum rate you should expect -- though how you'd test that with the PS4 is beyond me. (And I've heard that the PS4's network speed test utility doesn't accurately gauge bandwidth.)

That said, with the BOLT supporting standard MoCA 2.0, you'd max your BOLT MoCA throughput (~400+Mbps) by using a standard MoCA 2.0 adapter (TiVo Bridge or Actiontec ECB6000) or a bonded MoCA 2.0 adapter (Actiontec ECB6200) as your MoCA-creating bridge -- connected to a Gigabit Ethernet LAN port on the router.

Also, if you were to opt to connect a network switch to the BOLT's Ethernet port, you'd want to use a Gigabit switch, assuming you're shooting for the 400+Mbps standard MoCA 2.0 mark.


----------



## Player1138 (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks. Super informative.

Few Questions.
1. I can not access where the cable enters my home as it is in a locked cable box outside of my house.

Should I just install it at the point of entry prior to connected to the Moca Adapter

2. The last MoCA Adapter I will not need if I am using a Tivo Bolt correct
The updated chart
Cable Outlet In
... (coax) to 
Moca Adapter[Coax In]
MoCA Adapter[TV/RF Out]
... (coax) to 
Cable Modem
... (Ethernet) to 
Wireless Router[WAN port]
Wireless Router[LAN port]
....(Ethernet) to
MoCA Adapter (or Tivo Bolt)

3. Looking at the Actiontec ECB6000 it appears it has a coax port and an ethernet port. How you hook this up? I feel like it is missing a coax port. My cable modem has a coax in and an ethernet out (which goes to my wireless router).


----------



## Player1138 (Oct 1, 2015)

After a bit more research I think I maybe have it.

Would you mind looking at this chart to see if it is the proper hookup.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Player1138 said:


> After a bit more research I think I maybe have it.
> 
> Would you mind looking at this chart to see if it is the proper hookup.


Thrilled to look at the diagram, as having a diagram makes figuring this stuff out soooo much easier.


Modem/Router/MoCA adapter connections look good for establishing your MoCA network, though the splitter connections could possibly be tweaked to improve the signal levels to the modem & MoCA adapter -- partly dependent on which MoCA adapter you select.

If the MoCA adapter includes an RF Out coax port, the modem could be connected to this port; however, with just a single Coax In port on the MoCA adapter (as is the case, as you've found, with the Actiontec ECB6000 & TiVo Bridge), you'd need to split the coax line using a splitter, as you've diagrammed.

The Actiontec ECB6200 does include the additional RF Out port, though is mildly overkill as a bonded MoCA 2.0 adapter (800+Mbps) since the BOLT spec is standard MoCA 2.0 (400+Mbps). That said, given the Actiontec MoCA adapters are cheaper (per adapter) purchased in pairs, if you were looking to extend wired networking via MoCA to another room,_ in addition to having the bonus RF Out port_, the value of the ECB6200 would increase.

As additional background, when a MoCA adapter includes the bonus RF Out port, I believe it is typically implemented using an internal diplexer, diverting nearly the full strength of the incoming "TV" signal (i.e. incoming signal with MoCA frequencies filtered-out, minus nominal loss) to the RF Out port, rather than as a splitter which would output just under half the incoming signal strength.

If a 3-way split is needed, you'd have the option of going with an unbalanced or balanced splitter, where an unbalanced 3-way is effectively the same as using 2 2-way splitters.

BOLT connections also look good, though the recommended MoCA filter is missing from the coax input on the tuning adapter. You might be OK without a MoCA filter on the tuning adapter, but keep the recommendation in mind if you find the tuning adapter acting hinky.

That said, what's missing from the diagram is how the rooms connect to each other, including the type & specs on the coax component bringing the lines together, and the placement of the PoE MoCA filter on the provider-side of this component.

If all the lines come together inside a locked junction box, you'll need to consult your cable provider to get the PoE MoCA filter in place (and possibly to determine the MoCA compatibility of any hidden splitter or amplifier inside the cable box).

.


----------



## Player1138 (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks. 

I am not sure of the specs of the splitters used inside the cable junction box, but I do know that one line comes from the street to the junction box. Then inside the box there are a lot of splitters to get cable to each room in my home. I only know this as I remember standing outside when the cable was being hooked up and I was thinking I have to pay TWC for addition room hook ups when all they do is connect a wire to a splitter. 

My house is relatively new (built 2009) not sure if that helps. 

If I can not get into the junction box to install a filter from the street to the first splitter is that really bad? I just hate dealing with TWC and do not want to have to pay them to come out. 

My other concern is I know when I first got a my Bolt I tired to install it by having a cable go to the tuner and one to the bolt and it would never work. The. I used the tuner to pass cable to Bolt and it worked fine.

edit:
What is the difference between the balanced and unbalanced splitters? Not sure I get the db level thing. Assuming higher is better. I would prefer to try and keep as strong a signal as possible as I like my Tv to look good as well.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Player1138 said:


> I am not sure of the specs of the splitters used inside the cable junction box, but I do know that one line comes from the street to the junction box. Then inside the box there are a lot of splitters to get cable to each room in my home. I only know this as I remember standing outside when the cable was being hooked up and I was thinking I have to pay TWC for addition room hook ups when all they do is connect a wire to a splitter. ...
> 
> If I can not get into the junction box to install a filter from the street to the first splitter is that really bad?


You'll still be able to try initializing your MoCA network; it may work -- but perhaps not as well as it could, or at a much higher power level than would be necessary were a PoE MoCA filter in place on the input to a MoCA-compatible distribution component.

Also, without a PoE MoCA filter in place to secure your network, you may want to consider configuring your MoCA network with privacy enabled.



Player1138 said:


> My other concern is I know when I first got a my Bolt I tired to install it by having a cable go to the tuner and one to the bolt and it would never work. The. I used the tuner to pass cable to Bolt and it worked fine.


No way of knowing the root cause at this point (low signal strength, existing MoCA network, ???), but there's no reason that configuration shouldn't work.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Player1138 said:


> What is the difference between the balanced and unbalanced splitters? Not sure I get the db level thing. Assuming higher is better. I would prefer to try and keep as strong a signal as possible as I like my Tv to look good as well.


"dB" (short for 'decibel'*) is a unit of measure quantifying signal gain or loss. Briefly, a doubling of signal strength equates to +3dB, and a signal being cut in half is -3dB -- while no change in signal is 0dB. More specifically, here's the formula:
dB = 10 * log(PowerOut/PowerIn)

e.g.
10 * log(2.0) = +3.01
10 * log(1.0) = 0
10 * log(0.5) = -3.01
10 * log(1/3) = -4.77​
The dB value printed on passive devices such as splitters and taps are losses in signal strength, with the "-" assumed. (Since the devices have no external power input, it would be a physics breatkthrough for them to boost the signal.)

As it applies to splitters...

In the simplest case of a 2-way splitter, where an incoming signal is split evenly between its outputs, where the power is halved, you'll have a resulting 3dB loss in signal at each output (-3dB)... plus nominal additional loss owing to overhead associated with the physical circuitry used to implement the split, producing real world signal loss in the 3.5dB range (-3.5dB).

Taking this example to an unbalanced 3-way splitter, which is just 2 2-way splitters cascaded, the first port of the 3-way splitter would have the same loss as the output of a 2-way splitter, 3dB (sticking with theoretical numbers). The other two outputs, though, would suffer the additional loss associated with the second cascaded 2-way splitter, another 3dB, resulting in the final two outputs each having a total loss of 6dB. Again, when the theory is implemented in the real world, the losses are nominally higher, resulting in unbalanced 3-way splitters available for purchase with specs of (-3.5dB,-7dB,-7dB), (-3.9dB,-7.7dB,-7.7dB), etc.





​
A balanced 3-way splitter is just the simple case where the splitter is designed to have equal loss across each output port, resulting in each port being one-third the power (-4.77dB), theoretically, of the incoming signal. With the additional losses associated with putting the theory into practice, you'll find 3-way balanced splitters on the store shelf with specs of (-5.5dB,-5.5dB,-5.5dB). 





​
p.s. If the dB formula doesn't send tingles through your body, you can go with a web calculator or chart; or there's this tutorial (PDF) if you roll the other way.

edit: p.p.s. For extra (_*fun!*_) credit, you can review this diagram from another setup, with annotated signal losses*.





​

Signal losses for each distinct component are noted in *red*;
Aggregate losses from the components on each coax run are noted in *orange*;
Losses associated with the coax cable, itself -- typically 6dB/100ft -- have been ignored/omitted;
That first "splitter" on the incoming line is actually what is called a 'tap', which is effectively a 2-way splitter w/ bonus (desired) attenuation (signal loss/dampening) on the 'tap' output.
This example highlights the value of the dB notation, as it allows one to determine overall signal effects via simple addition and subtraction of component signal "costs."

* p.p.s. Best bits from the 'decibel' Wikipedia entry...


> One decibel is one tenth of one bel, named in honor of Alexander Graham Bell; however, the bel is seldom used.
> 
> The definition of the decibel is based on the measurement of power in telephony of the early 20th century in the Bell System in the United States.
> ...
> The decibel confers a number of advantages, such as the ability to conveniently represent very large or small numbers, and the ability to carry out multiplication of ratios by simple addition and subtraction. By contrast, use of the decibel complicates operations of addition and subtraction.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

Player1138 said:


> I would prefer to try and keep as strong a signal as possible as I like my Tv to look good as well.


A MoCA-networked TiVo Mini would surely provide a nice picture up there... 

... with the added benefit that the run to a MoCA-connected Tivo Mini at the Upstairs TV could suffer more signal attenuation than the feeds to the cable modem or BOLT, since, up to a point, MoCA has the ability to adjust its power levels as needed to adapt to its coax environment.


----------



## razor237 (Feb 1, 2002)

Ive been considering setting all my Tivos /minis to use MoCA to take some load of my already crowded network. i have a quick question on POE Filter placement, Can i place it on my main line in from the pole or does it have to be after my cable modem does the POE Filter kill the modem signal ?

Thanks


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

razor237 said:


> Ive been considering setting all my Tivos /minis to use MoCA to take some load of my already crowded network. i have a quick question on POE Filter placement, Can i place it on my main line in from the pole or does it have to be after my cable modem does the POE Filter kill the modem signal ?


I couldn't say for certain without seeing a diagram (or having a better understanding) of your connections, and your specific equipment, but...

Installing the PoE MoCA filter on the single line coming in from the cable provider is the recommended installation location. And the MoCA filter should have no effect on your modem, since it allows cable frequencies through. (Note that some older modems may require a separate MoCA filter directly on the modem's coax input port, if they're found to be affected by a MoCA signal on the coax line.)

p.s. More info above, here.


----------



## Player1138 (Oct 1, 2015)

I was about to click the button on Amazon to order everything but had two last thoughts.

First, if the splitters in my cable junction box are not these MoCA splitters will it not work?

Also, what is the security risk if I do not do a POE filter from the street input right away? I kind of wanted to test it out first to make sure it works prior to calling TWC and having to pay for them to come screw something in.


----------



## fcfc2 (Feb 19, 2015)

Player1138 said:


> I was about to click the button on Amazon to order everything but had two last thoughts.
> 
> First, if the splitters in my cable junction box are not these MoCA splitters will it not work?
> 
> Also, what is the security risk if I do not do a POE filter from the street input right away? I kind of wanted to test it out first to make sure it works prior to calling TWC and having to pay for them to come screw something in.


Hi,
MoCA will "work" with most splitters, so you might try what you have now, but if you run into any problems or get subpar performance, this is when you want to consider upgrading to the Holland or Verizon MoCA 2.0 rated splitters which seem to be optimized for MoCA.
Regarding the MoCA POE/Whole Home DVR filter, if you are in a single family home failure to install a filter for security is probably in the low to moderate range, but if you are living in a condo or apartment with numerous close by neighbors, the security risk goes up substantially. If you are sure you will get and install a MoCA filter shortly, most but not all MoCa equipment can be configured to use "encryption". This will pretty much eliminate the security concerns if all of you devices support it, but it is far better to use the filter and because the filter both "reflects" and "boosts" the MoCA frequencies, adding the required filter may get an otherwise poorly functioning or non-functioning MoCA setup working.
Another reason to have a filter installed, even if using encryption, is that both TWC and your neighbors will see your MoCA signal as "interference" or signal leakage coming from your home. I know a guy using MoCa, who came home to find his cable disconnected, and a door tag saying his equipment was generating "interference" and had to be disconnected.


----------



## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

fcfc2 said:


> Regarding the MoCA POE/Whole Home DVR filter, if you are in a single family home failure to install a filter for security is probably in the low to moderate range, but *if you are living in a condo or apartment with numerous close by neighbors, the security risk goes up substantially*.


See here for one such case seen within the last 24 hours.



fcfc2 said:


> If you are sure you will get and install a MoCA filter shortly, most but not all MoCa equipment can be configured to use "encryption". This will pretty much eliminate the security concerns if all of you devices support it, but it is far better to use the filter and because the filter both "reflects" and "boosts" the MoCA frequencies, *adding the required filter may get an otherwise poorly functioning or non-functioning MoCA setup working*.


See here for one such case, distinct from the above, seen within the last 24 hours.


----------

