# Annoying glitches on FOX shows



## mhn2 (Sep 10, 2003)

Lately we've noticed an annoying problem on HD recordings of FOX shows. Every minute or two the picture pixelates and the audio drops out. This lasts for only a couple seconds, but it is extremely annoying - especially during American Idol. Anyone else experiencing this?


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

Yep, it's why I replaced the HD thinking it was about to go out. Still does it but to a much lesser degree. My brother is running a disk check on the original WD drive using his external drive setup.


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## Dssturbo1 (Feb 23, 2005)

what channel is coming in, a local fox station broadcasting OTA, or a fox hd feed channel 88 or 89 from east or west coast from directv?
if it is 88-89 have you checked your sat signal meter to see if your getting steady signal.


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## mhn2 (Sep 10, 2003)

Dssturbo1 said:


> what channel is coming in, a local fox station broadcasting OTA, or a fox hd feed channel 88 or 89 from east or west coast from directv?
> if it is 88-89 have you checked your sat signal meter to see if your getting steady signal.


It is the local 4-1 OTA channel in DFW. I thought it might be a FOX network issue, but maybe it's the local station(KDFW). Anyone else in the DFW Metroplex notice this?


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## Sk8man (Dec 22, 2001)

mhn2 said:


> It is the local 4-1 OTA channel in DFW. I thought it might be a FOX network issue, but maybe it's the local station(KDFW). Anyone else in the DFW Metroplex notice this?


Yes. Getting quite annoying. This is the only channel I have experienced this on.


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## falz (Mar 29, 2002)

Sk8man said:


> Yes. Getting quite annoying. This is the only channel I have experienced this on.


My local fox station (47-1, Madison, WI) Has the same issue. Apparently it's related to some timecode/time offset bug that's in the braodcast. I assumed it was something with my local station, but perhaps yours has the same issue as well.

Details on it are on Avsforum. Look for the Local HD TV Reception area and see if there's a thread for your area. If not, look through the Madison, WI thread to find out the info.

--falz


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## dchamero (Feb 10, 2006)

mhn2 said:


> It is the local 4-1 OTA channel in DFW. I thought it might be a FOX network issue, but maybe it's the local station(KDFW). Anyone else in the DFW Metroplex notice this?


Yes, I'm in Garland (DFW Metroplex) and experience the same problem ONLY on FOX (and my ota antenna is perfectly aligned and getting between 80 and 90 % on 4-1 (KDFW-FOX) all the time)


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## judal98 (Dec 24, 2002)

Also in DFW...totally noticed on the recording of

24 - April 17th (Channel 4-1)

Very annoying, have not watched any other programs on that channel since then (cannot verify if it is still a problem)


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## dchamero (Feb 10, 2006)

Ok, just watched today's 24 and saw no glitches .... I hope they have fixed their problems.....


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

falz said:


> My local fox station (47-1, Madison, WI) Has the same issue. Apparently it's related to some timecode/time offset bug that's in the braodcast...


Sounds like some urban legend.

First, engineers at FOX would know if there were such an issue. I can tell you first-hand they have not heard of such a thing.

Second, the local station has no possibility of screwing up the FOX programming because they don't decode/re-encode or touch the signal in any way. FOX affils use a Terrayon MPEG splicer which keeps the bitstream pristine. The only thing different about the signal at DFW from that at any other FOX station is the unique added Nielsen location info, which is muxed in (added) to the existing bit stream, which means it does not affect the demuxed stream that is what your tuner sees.

Third, this equipment was supposed to be installed by 1-1-06 under penalty of fine, so even if it could cause a problem there would have been a lot of phone calls to the station in the last 4 months. The very nature of broadcast maintenance engineering is that anything that affects reception becomes a front-burner issue, so if the station had as issue, they would know, and very likely would have fixed it.

I understand it's comforting to have an answer for each question, make order out of chaos, etc., but these sound like just so many local reception issues. If you are willing to approach it that way instead, we can help you, and possibly your local station can help as well. We're all motivated toward the same goal of getting you reception.

Since KDFW is an O&O, any DTV sub in that market should also be getting 88 or 89 (FOX NYC and LA). Comparison to what is seen there is the best place to start. Assume that if the DNS station is OK, that it is likely a reception issue. While the signal path getting there is a little different, the signal is almost virtually identical by virtue of the splicer technology.


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## wensteph (Nov 20, 2003)

dchamero said:


> Ok, just watched today's 24 and saw no glitches .... I hope they have fixed their problems.....


"24" was occasionally pixelated, but with heavy audio drops. I'm OTA with Fox in Charlotte, NC.


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## dchamero (Feb 10, 2006)

TyroneShoes said:


> Since KDFW is an O&O, any DTV sub in that market should also be getting 88 or 89 (FOX NYC and LA).


I don't know what do you mean by that, but I can assure you that noone in dfw (unles granfathered by some old agreement) gets the national FOX feed. Besides DFW is a MPEG4 locals market....


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

You're right. Once M4 starts, they typically turn off the DNS. But otherwise, network _owned & operated_ stations typically give blanket DNS approval in those markets on DTV.
Many folks were likely getting at least 88 until then.


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## rpiotro (Oct 20, 2005)

Yup! I see it here in Milwaukee, WI on 6-1 during American Idol. It was real bad in Febuary, seemed to disappear in March and has been back to a lesser extent in the last two weeks. I get an excellent signal. It fluctuates between 92-94.


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## mhn2 (Sep 10, 2003)

TyroneShoes,



TyroneShoes said:


> Sounds like some urban legend.


I don't understand, are you saying that this problem dosen't really exist? I can tell you it is a real issue on my set. I'm simply trying to figure out if this is:

A. A network problem
B. A local affiliate problem
C. An HD DirecTiVo problem
D. My equipment

I'm just asking others in the forum if they have encountered this problem to try and eliminate some of the possibilities before I call FOX, KDFW or DirecTV to complain.


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## cnixon (Mar 18, 2004)

Last week I posted the same question in The Dallas Home Theater Group and after many said they were having the same problems with frequent breakup, an engineer from another station reported that he had talked with KDFW's engineers and heard that the station was having "tube" problems with their transmitter at Cedar Hill. Last night I had better luck with KDFW 4-1 than DTV 88 during Prison Break and 24, so I suspect the problem has been fixed.
Charles


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## Sir_winealot (Nov 18, 2000)

Call your local affiliate and ask them if they're having a problem...if they are they'll be more than happy to tell you.

I had a problem w/CBS in my area back during football season. Called them in the middle of one of the TB Bucs games to let them know and they told me they had been working to fix the problem, and please bear with them.

Put my mind at ease...especially since I was switching cables and moving antennas trying to get the problem to stop!


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## mhalver (Nov 3, 2005)

I'm located in central Iowa (medicom cable - regular not HD) and see this too. It only happens on Fox and there are sometimes skips or pixelating as well as a strange "squicky" noise sometimes. It does this on both tv's (only one with a TiVo) so it is definately the feed. Been doing it for at least 6 months.


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## dchamero (Feb 10, 2006)

Ok, tonight American Idol, the glitches came back.... not so bad as last week, but they are definetly back


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## teasip (Aug 24, 2002)

Concur, D-FW issues are not resolved. Anyone need a new HR10-250 drive since the one I bought obviously didn't correct my issue?


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

mhn2 said:


> Lately we've noticed an annoying problem on HD recordings of FOX shows. Every minute or two the picture pixelates and the audio drops out. This lasts for only a couple seconds, but it is extremely annoying - especially during American Idol. Anyone else experiencing this?


This just shows that your Tivo is smarter than the average bear!! Its puking its guts out over having to show that American Loser cr&p!!


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## JohnPhoenix (Jan 9, 2002)

I am a technician for my local cable company and I have both a regular Tivo and a HDDVR from my company. I can say this is not limited to just Tivo or DirectTV. I think it has to do with the HDMI port and the way FOX broadcasts their content. It doesn't tile for me but the sound does intermittantly go out on all the shows I watch: 24, Family Guy, American Dad, War at Home, etc. The sound is fine on all the other HD channels and also on my seperate HD box using component then into Tivo.


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## DrBunsen (Jan 1, 2001)

Count me in as one of the people who gets horrible DFW 4-1 pixelation. Maybe we should we start a letter-writing campaign to every advertiser on the popular shows like 24.


Bunsen


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## cnixon (Mar 18, 2004)

Last night I watched Tuesday's episode of House recorded off KDFW 4-1, and I didn't notice any breakup like I saw in abundance last week. 
Charles


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

mhn2 said:


> TyroneShoes,
> 
> I don't understand, are you saying that this problem dosen't really exist? I can tell you it is a real issue on my set. I'm simply trying to figure out if this is:
> 
> ...


And that is exactly what I am trying to help you with. I didn't mean to sound flip about it.

The probablilities of A/B/C/D from my POV, tho, are this:

A. Virtually nil. A network problem would be fairly wide-spread, and would also be hopefully fixed rather quickly. There are minor differences between how various timezones get the FOX feed, but those are VERY minor, and even a problem localized to a particular feed would not exist longer than a day or so.

B. Next to nil. FOX affils are virtually locked out of the signal chain. Even the "local" bug you see identifying the local station comes, ironically enough, from the network feed directly. There could be a local splicer problem, but no station would allow that to drag on as a problem for more than a few days at the worst. One of the great things about digital broadcasting is that the integrity of the signal is locked away from most potential problems from the point it is encoded to the point it is decoded in your STB, assuming you can receive the signal properly, and this eliminates a whole host of potential transmission problems that DT is completely invulnerable to.

C. Not likely. If just one station does this, how could your Tivo pick only then to exhibit a software or hardware problem? Not impossible, but not likely. OTA HD is not identical, but the signals are closely standardized, meaning if you can get one, you can very likely get them all, _all else (reception issues) being equal_. If sat programs also show this problem, suspect a HDD. Otherwise, I wouldn't suspect the Tivo, especially if it isn't uniform over the other OTA channels.

D. Actually less likely than C. Pixellation/audio dropouts are almost always due to disruptions at some point _before_ decoding takes place.

So if we assess A/B/C/D levels of probability of 1%, 2%, 8%, and 3% respectively, that means that there is some other factor we have not considered that has a probability of 86%, which is about what one would expect if one looked at reception. At that level of probability, it seems sensible to look there first rather than picking A/B/C/D as the culprit.

But it still _could_ be a FOX or affil issue. Some early splicer problems showed up only on certain tuners, while other tuners sailed right through. But again, that was fixed in a matter of hours. It couldn't hurt to talk to your local station, but help there is not likely, and not because they are unwilling to fix a problem, but because it is very difficult to them to fix a problem that they likely don't have.

A good place to start is the local threads in the HD reception forum for your city over on AVS.


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## mhn2 (Sep 10, 2003)

While the problem seemed to have gotten better, we noticed it in abundance during the AI finale Wednesday night. This is so frustrating!  Does anyone know a contact at FOX4 here in Dallas? They aren't responding to my emails.

Thanks


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## davahad (Dec 1, 2002)

I noticed the glitches on the American Idol San Francisco feed via OTA antenna (2-1) with the HR10-250 (HDMI Cable). I also have Comcast HD with their 6412 III box and they had the exact same problem with their broadcast (component video cables). Based on this I think we can say that at a minimum it was the local Fox Feed causing the problems and since others are reporting similar problems with different local affiliates, that it was more likely a national feed problem.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

SF gets a west coast feed, and Dallas/Arlington gets the east coast feed, so the problem (assuming it is the same problem) is not related to a specific net feed. Arizona gets yet another feed, and AFAIK there were no problems there. With this many people watching, there certainly would have been a huge outcry if folks were having this issue, and we have heard nothing of the sort here.

Both CA and TX stations (as well as AZ) pass the FOX feed directly by virtue of an MPEG splicer, so very little can happen at the station level to cause this other than specific transmitter/exciter issues. There has not been a splicer problem for many months.

It is hard to rule out local reception issues, even though they seem coincidental. It does seem a little disturbing that an O&O station won't respond to your emails.

On the other hand, a quick perusal of the last few weeks of this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529070&page=1&pp=20

indicates that there are more than a few folks who are experiencing this from KDFW. Not enough to indicate for sure that it is a station problem, but enough to make one suspicious. It may well be that they are having a continuing problem, and that all that can be done is being done (some times these things move slower than anyone wants, including the local engineering dept.). But, it would behoove them to at least fess up and dialog with those who call in reporting the problem. Most stations are happy to accomodate. I'd keep after them.


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## Runch Machine (Feb 7, 2002)

Well, I can chime in and say it's not a Fox network problem. Here in Minneapolis, KMSP 9-1 comes with 100% reliability. Does everyone in DFW experience this problem? If not, then by far the most like cause is a reception problem. What digital channel is the station broadcasting on? What kind of antenna are you using to pickup the signal? What is the terrain around your home? Those are all things that can affect reception. 

Here in the Minneapolis area many people had problems with the ABC affiliate, KSTP. They broadcast on digital channel 50. I've never had a problem, however on the local forum, hdtvtwincities.com, lots of people blame the station for their reception problems. In many cases getting a better antenna or relocating it solved their problem. The station's engineers have even made a house call or two to review the situation. 

They also posted that the station could be harder to pick up because they share an antenna with two other stations, one broadcasting on channel 35 and the other on channel 32. They indicated that since the antenna is optimized for mid band and since they are broadcasting on channel 50, it made it slightly harder to pick up the station. 

There was also a situation with the local CBS affiliate, WCCO which is on digital channel 32. Panasonic TVs were having dropouts on a regular basis, but only while watching WCCO. Panasonic actually sent some technicians to peoples homes to take measurements and worked with the TV station to find the problem. It turned out that there was something slighly off in the TV station's transmitter. Once the manufacturer learned of the problem, it was resolved. I was pleased to see how all three companies worked together to solve a problem that only affected a small number of TVs.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

Runch Machine said:


> ...Panasonic TVs were having dropouts on a regular basis, but only while watching WCCO. Panasonic actually sent some technicians to peoples homes to take measurements and worked with the TV station to find the problem. It turned out that there was something slighly off in the TV station's transmitter. Once the manufacturer learned of the problem, it was resolved. I was pleased to see how all three companies worked together to solve a problem that only affected a small number of TVs.


Good point. Unfortunately, that is becoming more prevalent. TV stations usually do QoS by erecting their own antenna and receiver, or demodulator. But in the era of DT that may not be enough. Common sense says that if they can see the signal without problem then there should be no problem for customers who have a valid reception system, but sometimes these little digital problems only manifest on certain types of reception equipment, and if the station is using something else, they won't know of that particular problem until someone else alerts them.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

TyroneShoes said:


> SF gets a west coast feed [...] Both CA and TX stations (as well as AZ) pass the FOX feed directly by virtue of an MPEG splicer ...


FYI, the SF FOX affiliate, KTVU, does not air the west coast feed (for prime-time anyway) -- they record and replay the East feed (in both SD and HD). Why? Well, they have their own way of doing things ...


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## chuckd11 (Feb 7, 2005)

I have been having the same problem with fox in the DFW area.


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## TyroneShoes (Sep 6, 2004)

videojanitor said:


> FYI, the SF FOX affiliate, KTVU, does not air the west coast feed (for prime-time anyway) -- they record and replay the East feed (in both SD and HD). Why? Well, they have their own way of doing things ...


That would be highly unusual since there are regional spots sold for each feed, which would be going against the wishes of the regional sales strategy of FOX. But then we are talking about SF, where they actually tried to move the start time of prime a few years back.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

It is unusual, but trust me, that's what they do. I've been in there and watched them do it. They've been doing for at least 15 years. As far as I know, they have permission from the network. Whenever there is a long movie, they start it early (at 7:30) so that it will end at 10pm and not disrupt their newscast.

BTW, the CBS O&O in Sacramento DOES start prime-time an hour early, at 7pm. Been doing it for years. Don't believe it, check their programming schedule:

http://cbs13.com/programming


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