# No upgrade incentive from TiVo!



## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

TiVo is obviously not too anxious to encourage existing TiVo owners to upgrade to a Roamio! I attempted to do so today, but they wont cancel my old service contract (goes to 2/2014) and start a new service contract on the Roamio. I either have to pay off the old service contract or pay the early termination fee. I dont need the extra DVR and I dont have a relative or friend who wants to take on the contractual obligation, even if I give them my Premier box. I believe this will result in a loss of revenue for TiVo in the long run as I suspect 6 months from now, they will reduce the price of the Roamio, or something better might come along from another company. Its my understanding that TiVo is already in some financial stress; they could help alleviate it by providing some financial encouragement to existing TiVo owners to upgrade without actually reducing the price of the new product. They may lose some owner loyalty to this practice!


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## TZeruk (Jun 3, 2011)

Ugh really? I just had to re-up my 1-year service for my premiere (I have MSD on it from an old tivo and paying a year at a time saves money as well). I was hoping I could call them up and tell them I'd like to order a Roamio and transfer service, but seems like they aren't budging?


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## ppartekim (Jan 18, 2007)

TZeruk said:


> Ugh really? I just had to re-up my 1-year service for my premiere (I have MSD on it from an old tivo and paying a year at a time saves money as well). I was hoping I could call them up and tell them I'd like to order a Roamio and transfer service, but seems like they aren't budging?


I would still give it a shot... especially if you did it within a 30dya period. All they can say is no.. but if pressed enough.. who knows... squeaky wheel and all that....


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bklinc said:


> Its my understanding that TiVo is already in some financial stress; they could help alleviate it by providing some financial encouragement to existing TiVo owners to upgrade without actually reducing the price of the new product. They may lose some owner loyalty to this practice!


Why? TiVO heavily subsidizes most of their hardware prices - not as much as the phone companies do, but the same principle. The subsidy and then eventual profit they get comes out of the service contracts, not any hardware. If they allow service contracts to not be finished, then they may actually lose money on that customer. Are you upset at wireless companies for insisting on fulfillment of your phone contracts?

(TiVo is in no financial stress at all. They've got half a billion dollars in the bank due to the patent court settlements (that's what's paying for the R&D for the Roamios and Minis.))


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

I dont like cellular phone company contracts either, but it is possible to get out of them. I wont describe the process here, but there is legal precedent which can be invoked if necessary. They usually wont allow it to reach court level as it will cost them more to defend than to eat the cost of the unexpired contract. I dont condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts unless there is a legitimate reason (moved, poor service, poor equipment, etc.). 
I was actually offering to give TiVo additional business as I now might not renew my service with them. Otherwise, like the cell phone companies who renew your contract when you ask to upgrade your cell phone before your contract expires, they actually are guaranteed another two years of contractual obligation from the time of the upgrade. TiVo could have done this for me, guaranteeing them at least an additional 6 months of contractual obligation from me, which they will now lose. I can guarantee you they make something on the sale of the box!


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> (TiVo is in no financial stress at all. They've got half a billion dollars in the bank due to the patent court settlements (that's what's paying for the R&D for the Roamios and Minis.))


TiVo will have a little over $1 billion of cash on-hand when they report earnings next Tuesday due to the $490 million one-time payment associated with the Cisco/Google/Arris/TWC settlement.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I think there is little *financial* incentive because there is a lot of excitement of the new *features* as an incentive. Way more hype and love for tivo here than when the premiere came out.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bklinc said:


> I dont like cellular phone company contracts either, but it is possible to get out of them. I wont describe the process here, but there is legal precedent which can be invoked if necessary. They usually wont allow it to reach court level as it will cost them more to defend than to eat the cost of the unexpired contract. I dont condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts unless there is a legitimate reason (moved, poor service, poor equipment, etc.).
> I was actually offering to give TiVo additional business as I now might not renew my service with them. Otherwise, like the cell phone companies who renew your contract when you ask to upgrade your cell phone before your contract expires, they actually are guaranteed another two years of contractual obligation from the time of the upgrade. TiVo could have done this for me, guaranteeing them at least an additional 6 months of contractual obligation from me, which they will now lose. I can guarantee you they make something on the sale of the box!


TiVo has always lost money on hardware (except for their top-end models). Every single year, their financial statements show a significantly higher cost of producing hardware than revenue from producing hardware. They have no reason to lie about it; they say they make it up with their service income. It's part of their standard discussions with analysts in most quarterly reports. They are a very low volume hardware producer with absolutely no in-house manufacturing capability at all. Actual hardware production is entirely contracted out.

They have never wanted to build hardware, but the standalone DVR market turned out to be so small that the big players (Sony, Toshiba, Philips, Humax, AT&T) all abandoned them and TiVo had to arrange their own manufacturing chain.

So you don't condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts, but you think it's perfectly fine to ask it of TiVo?


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## jcaudle (Aug 16, 2004)

I have no idea how tivo works early termination. But with cell phone companies don't you just cancel and pay the early termination fee?


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

jcaudle said:


> I have no idea how tivo works early termination. But with cell phone companies don't you just cancel and pay the early termination fee?


Not always. You can get out of a cell phone contract for reasons of poor service, poor equipment, etc., as I stated before, without paying the early termination fee. I have done it. 
Also, as I stated before, I have "gotten out" of cell phone contracts when I upgraded my equipment before the contract ended. They just start the clock over with the new equipment, guaranteeing them another two years of contractual service.


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

So you don't condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts, but you think it's perfectly fine to ask it of TiVo?[/QUOTE]

I didn't ask them to terminate my service contract early. I asked them to transfer it to new equipment and start the clock over, just as I have done many times with cellular telephones, guaranteeing them another six months of contractual service.

I stand by my original post, which was only to alert TiVo users that the company will not allow you to transfer your service contract to a new piece of equipment which they are trying to promote.


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

sbiller said:


> TiVo will have a little over $1 billion of cash on-hand when they report earnings next Tuesday due to the $490 million one-time payment associated with the Cisco/Google/Arris/TWC settlement.


I am glad that TiVo is so cash rich since I now am committed to another six months of service from them. I also applaud them for defending their patents. As I recall, patents are granted for 17 years. I wonder how far they are into their patent grants? If the future of their business is dependent on suing other companies for violating their patents, I'm glad I have only another six months obligation with them!


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Ask all you want. Tivo's message really is that it takes a one year agreement to make back the loss on the fixed costs of the box, perhaps with a little return mixed in.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

The suits are pretty much done, and Tivo has to live by their own merits (and deserved cash reserves) now.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Did you try to order a TiVo from TiVo?

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/20

You need to buy one locally and then do the swap if you qualify.

The reason being is usually the call center has to sell the TiVo activated with a plan.


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

innocentfreak said:


> Did you try to order a TiVo from TiVo?
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/20
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip. Not sure what "buy one locally" means. I'm also not sure what qualifies me for a "swap". Any recommendations?

Sorry for the reply above. After checking your link, it appears that my "contract" is not transferrable. Fortunately, I learned that before I ordered a Roamio anyway after speaking with a TiVo representative. They could have gotten another six months out of me beyond my original contract if they had allowed the transfer.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

By buy one locally I mean from Best Buy, Amazon, etc. Any retailer other than TiVo since you can buy a box without a plan. 

I am guessing you have a $12.95 sub which is why. It doesn't cover the hardware subsidy.


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## MeInDallas (Jul 31, 2011)

jrtroo said:


> I think there is little *financial* incentive because there is a lot of excitement of the new *features* as an incentive. Way more hype and love for tivo here than when the premiere came out.


I agree, I've never seen people so excited about a launch that I can remember, well at least in a long long time.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

bklinc said:


> > So you don't condone asking for early termination of cell phone contracts, but you think it's perfectly fine to ask it of TiVo?
> 
> 
> I didn't ask them to terminate my service contract early. I asked them to transfer it to new equipment and start the clock over, just as I have done many times with cellular telephones, guaranteeing them another six months of contractual service.


True, as long as you are willing to pay the full price (say $700) of the new equipment instead of the upgrade after 2 years price (say $200). TiVo doesn't publish a "full price", one that gives them a sufficient profit to support the rest of the company's activities. But as far as I can tell, you want to get away with paying the subsidized price - the one that corresponds to the "upgrade" price.

TiVo has to be able to make money somewhere. Hardware plus service fees have basically never allowed TiVo to make a profit in its 14 year history (there were 1-2 quarters where if you folded in money for development paid for by outside companies, they eked out a few hundred thousand dollars profit). They have demonstrated they can break-even and survive, but the only quarters in which they've made profits so far have been because of the patent settlements.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

bklinc said:


> They could have gotten another six months out of me beyond my original contract if they had allowed the transfer.


Six months of service isn't enough to cover the subsidy on the box. They'd be losing money if they did what you wanted.


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## shortys408 (Sep 20, 2011)

get them to add lifetime for 199 on your premier, and than sell the box.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

sbiller said:


> TiVo will have a little over $1 billion of cash on-hand when they report earnings next Tuesday due to the $490 million one-time payment associated with the Cisco/Google/Arris/TWC settlement.


Thanks. I didn't know that that money was in TiVo's bank yet. I'm always surprised how long these things take in preparation, but then how quick the final implementation is!


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

innocentfreak said:


> By buy one locally I mean from Best Buy, Amazon, etc. Any retailer other than TiVo since you can buy a box without a plan.
> I am guessing you have a $12.95 sub which is why. It doesn't cover the hardware subsidy.


I have a Premier (basic) and am paying TiVo $14.99/mo. for service.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

bklinc said:


> I have a Premier (basic) and am paying TiVo $14.99/mo. for service.


Still might work then if you pick up a Tivo from Best Buy. You don't even have to open it since the TSN is on the box. Just follow the steps and see if it will let you change the service number.

Their FAQ doesn't mention the $14.99 price so it might or might not work.


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

CrispyCritter said:


> True, as long as you are willing to pay the full price (say $700) of the new equipment instead of the upgrade after 2 years price (say $200). TiVo doesn't publish a "full price", one that gives them a sufficient profit to support the rest of the company's activities. But as far as I can tell, you want to get away with paying the subsidized price - the one that corresponds to the "upgrade" price.
> 
> TiVo has to be able to make money somewhere. Hardware plus service fees have basically never allowed TiVo to make a profit in its 14 year history (there were 1-2 quarters where if you folded in money for development paid for by outside companies, they eked out a few hundred thousand dollars profit). They have demonstrated they can break-even and survive, but the only quarters in which they've made profits so far have been because of the patent settlements.


*I assure you I have never paid $700 for a cell phone! The most I ever paid is $199.*They knew that one of their competitors would have paid off my termination fee just to get me (and my family!) into their network.

A local automobile dealer some years ago covered a repair out-of-warranty for me. It was called "good will". I still purchase new cars and have most of my repairs performed at that dealership. It insured customer loyalty. 
I will now "ride out" my contractual obligation to TiVo, (cheaper than the termination fee) and then I'll be "gone". If I did purchase the Roamio now, I would have to lease another cable card (first one is free, second one isn't!) in addition to paying another $14.99/mo. to TiVo. I could pull the cable card from the Premier and shove it in the Roamio, saving myself the additional lease on another cable card, and rendering the Premier completely useless while still paying $14.99/mo. I have also learned that if I lease a second cable card, the cable company will charge me another fee for an "additional digital outlet" (their term, not mine!). I really don't want or need two dvr's. The Roamio, with its enhanced capabilities, would have covered our needs for many years to come. Won't happen now!


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

innocentfreak said:


> Still might work then if you pick up a Tivo from Best Buy. You don't even have to open it since the TSN is on the box. Just follow the steps and see if it will let you change the service number.
> 
> Their FAQ doesn't mention the $14.99 price so it might or might not work.


Thanks for the advice. It's worth a try, if and when our local (rural!) Best Buy ever starts selling the Roamio! I will also have to assure that the item can be returned if the box isn't opened. Best Buy has some very strange (consumer unfriendly!) return policies, listed in very large letters on the wall of their store. They tried to hit me with a "restocking fee" when I returned an opened item which wouldn't work with my existing equipment. Sure enough, it was right up there in black & white! (Read the fine print; in this case, not very fine!) I don't know what their return policies are today as I buy very little from them and fortunately haven't returned anything in recent years. If I attempt this, I'll post the results here, but we won't hold our breath for success with this maneuver!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

This is another reason to always buy lifetime. With lifetime you can almost always recoup all/most of the service cost and there is no contract so you can sell whenever you want.

You should ask them if they'll give you a deal on lifetime for the Premiere if you buy a new Roamio. If they do you can turn around and sell the Premiere for at least $400 and recoup the cost.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

This is a common complaint every time TiVo launches a new box.

There is absolutely no reason TiVo should allow anyone to cancel a contract, especially if the hardware subsidy on the box hasn't been recovered yet.

Not sure why the OP thinks TiVo should operate any differently than most other businesses.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

bklinc said:


> *I assure you I have never paid $700 for a cell phone! The most I ever paid is $199.*They knew that one of their competitors would have paid off my termination fee just to get me (and my family!) into their network.
> 
> A local automobile dealer some years ago covered a repair out-of-warranty for me. It was called "good will". I still purchase new cars and have most of my repairs performed at that dealership. It insured customer loyalty.
> I will now "ride out" my contractual obligation to TiVo, (cheaper than the termination fee) and then I'll be "gone". If I did purchase the Roamio now, I would have to lease another cable card (first one is free, second one isn't!) in addition to paying another $14.99/mo. to TiVo. I could pull the cable card from the Premier and shove it in the Roamio, saving myself the additional lease on another cable card, and rendering the Premier completely useless while still paying $14.99/mo. I have also learned that if I lease a second cable card, the cable company will charge me another fee for an "additional digital outlet" (their term, not mine!). I really don't want or need two dvr's. The Roamio, with its enhanced capabilities, would have covered our needs for many years to come. Won't happen now!


I'll be paying $700 for my next cell phone. If I only pay $200 I'll be forced onto Verizons newer plans. So my monthly price will almost double over what I currently pay for unlimited data.
So even after paying $700 for the cell phone, over two years I will have paid over $1k less than if I got the deal for the $200 cell phone. So in the long run, like lifetime on a TiVo, it's better for me to pay the $700 for the cell phone up front.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Do you really use that much data? I barely use a few hundred MB a month on mine, out of 2GB I'm allotted.


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

aaronwt said:


> I'll be paying $700 for my next cell phone. If I only pay $200 I'll be forced onto Verizons newer plans. So my monthly price will almost double over what I currently pay for unlimited data.
> So even after paying $700 for the cell phone, over two years I will have paid over $1k less than if I got the deal for the $200 cell phone. So in the long run, like lifetime on a TiVo, it's better for me to pay the $700 for the cell phone up front.


you can keep your current plan except your unlimited data will become 2GB


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> This is another reason to always buy lifetime. With lifetime you can almost always recoup all/most of the service cost and there is no contract so you can sell whenever you want.
> 
> You should ask them if they'll give you a deal on lifetime for the Premiere if you buy a new Roamio. If they do you can turn around and sell the Premiere for at least $400 and recoup the cost.


Yeah, that should work. I can't even give the darned thing to friends and relatives, telling them that the cost of the service is covered until Feb., 2014, after which they would have to assume cost of monthly service. In this area, they have antennas with rotors, receiving HD signals free. They won't subscribe to cable either. TiVo is not real useful for this type of reception since you can record only those programs being received in the current direction of the antenna. Would need two (or more, in some cases) antennas to record more than one program at a time. I haven't had good experiences trying to buy or sell anything second-hand, locally or on auction websites. I am certainly not going to give TiVo any more money than I am now committed to. Really glad I didn't purchase a Roamio on the assumption that I could transfer my current service to the new box.


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

jfh3 said:


> This is a common complaint every time TiVo launches a new box.
> 
> There is absolutely no reason TiVo should allow anyone to cancel a contract, especially if the hardware subsidy on the box hasn't been recovered yet.
> 
> Not sure why the OP thinks TiVo should operate any differently than most other businesses.


I didn't ask them to "cancel" my original contract, just move it to the new equipment and guarantee themselves another year of service payments from me, just like the cell phone companies do, mentioned in a previous post. But I digress!


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

aaronwt said:


> I'll be paying $700 for my next cell phone. If I only pay $200 I'll be forced onto Verizons newer plans. So my monthly price will almost double over what I currently pay for unlimited data.
> So even after paying $700 for the cell phone, over two years I will have paid over $1k less than if I got the deal for the $200 cell phone. So in the long run, like lifetime on a TiVo, it's better for me to pay the $700 for the cell phone up front.


Am also with Verizon, and for some reason, they have never forced me into a "newer" plan. I guess I am "grandfathered" somehow into the same family plan that I have had for years. Even with three of us using the plan, we have never even approached the 2GB mark. I honestly have never checked to see what I am actually allotted since I have never been charged for extra data, even with exchanging photos and occasional texts. Now that I think of it, I believe I do pay ($5?) for unlimited texting.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

bklinc said:


> I will now "ride out" my contractual obligation to TiVo, (cheaper than the termination fee) and then I'll be "gone".
> <snip>
> The Roamio, with its enhanced capabilities, would have covered our needs for many years to come. Won't happen now!


So after you "ride out your contract" and leave TiVo, which product will you use to cover your family's needs?



bklinc said:


> Also, as I stated before, I have "gotten out" of cell phone contracts when I upgraded my equipment before the contract ended. They just start the clock over with the new equipment, guaranteeing them another two years of contractual service.


Interestingly, AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile don't allow that anymore.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

bklinc said:


> Am also with Verizon, and for some reason, they have never forced me into a "newer" plan. I guess I am "grandfathered" somehow into the same family plan that I have had for years.


Just like with TiVo, Verizon picks the things they want to be hard-asses about.

Verizon customers with grandfathered "unlimited data" plans can't buy new phones at the subsidized rates ($199) without having to sign a new contract that causes them to lose the unlimited data.

Meanwhile, Verizon doesn't appear to blink an eye with other grandfathered plans.


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

aristoBrat said:


> So after you "ride out your contract" and leave TiVo, which product will you use to cover your family's needs?
> 
> Interestingly, AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile don't allow that anymore.


The good thing is that I now have 6 months to prepare for that. What did I do before I purchased the TiVo? I had a DVD writer connected to my signal which recorded (had its own tuner) to a DVD-RW. It could even do timed recording. Gets me only one program while I watch another. I also built a "DVR" years ago from an old PC which I had kept as a spare. It already had a graphics card which included a TV tuner (since I had been doing some video editing on it). I added another (VERY LARGE in those days!) hard drive and recorded some live shows just to prove it could be done. The PC finally "died" and I didn't build another DVR. We could even coordinate with a neighbor who also uses the DVD writer scenario where he would record one show and we another, then swap discs. I know there are downsides to all of these, but they are all basically free of monthly service charges. I didn't find any of these scenarios that inconvenient. Our needs are not significant enough for this to be an issue for us. The Roamio would have been a good replacement for the Premier for the rare occasion when we want to record more than two shows simultaneously, or watch a 3rd while recording two. Regarding the cell phone contract renewal, thanks for the "heads-up" on this. Verizon allowed it the last time we got new phones. I think she had to get a "supervisor" to override something in their system, but they did accommodate us. May have something to do with the fact that we have been Verizon customers way before it was Verizon (Bell Atlantic Mobile), I think the mid 1990's, maybe earlier, don't remember.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

bklinc said:


> I didn't ask them to "cancel" my original contract, just move it to the new equipment and guarantee themselves another year of service payments from me, just like the cell phone companies do, mentioned in a previous post. But I digress!


I understand. But cell phone companies don't allow you to do that on subsidized phones, only unsubsidized ones. In your case with TiVo, both your existing box and the box you would like to "transfer" have hardware subsidies.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

The way it works is TiVo sells you the hardware at a loss assuming they'll make the money back by charging you $15/mo for a minimum of 1 year. If they allowed you to transfer that contract to a new TiVo before the 1 year was up then they will have lost money on that hardware. 

How much is the early termination fee? You might be able to sell the used TiVo for enough to recoup it.


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

jfh3 said:


> I understand. But cell phone companies don't allow you to do that on subsidized phones, only unsubsidized ones. In your case with TiVo, both your existing box and the box you would like to "transfer" have hardware subsidies.


I don't believe I have ever had an "unsubsidized" cell phone. I always got a "deal" on one with a 2-yr contract, and have never had trouble upgrading before the end of the contract. Maybe I will the next time; we'll see!

I just finished mowing my lawn, where I frequently do my most creative thinking. It just occurred to me that TiVo could have made this a win-win situation for itself and its customers by allowing purchase of the Roamio box, and in my case, offering me a contract for 1.5 years of service. In other words, I continue to pay the monthly fee for one box (all I need and will accept) until I have paid the "hardware subsidy" on the Premier. At the end of six months, I begin to fulfill my obligation for the 1-yr service contract on the Roamio. I know that there is at least one TiVo shill posting to this thread. You might kick this idea "upstairs" to see if it doesn't make good business sense for customer loyalty and retention. You can even present it as your own idea; I'll never know or care!

Also, while mowing, it just occurred to me that I have several other options when I dispense with the Premier box. I have several VCR's sitting around, all of which worked the last time I tested them. I can plug them into the coax outlets scattered around my house and record a different show on each one. Viewing fidelity won't be great, but the programs will be watcheable, and I can still fast forward through the commercials.

Lastly, I forgot that my wife's new Windows 8 all-in-one PC has a TV tuner built in and comes with a remote to control it. I hadn't set it up, but will now. It has a nice 23" HD monitor, so watching TV shows on it won't be bad at all. Between this, the VCR's, and DVD writer, I think I can cover everything we would ever want to watch. In the rare event we wanted to archive something, we could do so on either the DVD or VCR without requiring hard drive space on a DVR. Once I go to the trouble of setting all of this up, I will no longer have any interest in a TiVo of any design!


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## bklinc (Aug 21, 2013)

Dan203 said:


> The way it works is TiVo sells you the hardware at a loss assuming they'll make the money back by charging you $15/mo for a minimum of 1 year. If they allowed you to transfer that contract to a new TiVo before the 1 year was up then they will have lost money on that hardware.
> 
> How much is the early termination fee? You might be able to sell the used TiVo for enough to recoup it.


I was told early termination fee is $22/mo. x 6 months. Used Premier boxes are listed high on auction websites, but don't bring much in the end. As I posted earlier, I have had enough bad experiences buying and selling used items, I won't do it anymore.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Before US carriers figured out people wanted the latest tech gadgets (and frankly I'm not all that sure even today that anybody but AT&T has really figured that out), I always would buy my phones from expansys in the UK and import them. Starting back in the good days of OmniPoint -- before VoiceStream -- before T-Mobile. When international roaming was not only affordable but downright cheap.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Do you really use that much data? I barely use a few hundred MB a month on mine, out of 2GB I'm allotted.


It really depends. Some months I might only use 2GB to 3GB and some months I might use 12GB or more. For instance this is a high month because I've been working late alot and have been streaming alot of music which gets my data usage up.
My phone was streaming over 15 hours today from Amazon and Pandora.
I also rarely do anything over Wi-Fi. I typically download everything over the cellular network.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

aristoBrat said:


> Interestingly, AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile don't allow that anymore.


Nor Sprint. As far as I know, no carrier ever allowed that. If you want out of a contract, you pay a hefty fee. Would be the same with TiVo if you had a subsidized DVR. Often they will let you upgrade a little early as a bonus to keep you locked in, though.

I do wish the FTC would end misleading pricing advertising. Smart phones do not have and never have costed $50 or $200... those are DOWN PAYMENTS and should be clearly listed as such on all marketing materials. Same thing should go for what TiVo was doing.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

I disagree here. I think Tivo is making a huge mistake not upgrading alot of premiere owners... quite frankly they should allow anyone under contract on a premiere to purchase a roamio and restart there 1 year commitment. with the exception of the few fanatics here.. they will lose alot of customers not happy with the premieres relative performance..

even more so from people who just purchased premieres.. Direct TV subsidizes there boxes also.. but they dont stop you from buying the latest buy and just restarting your commitment


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

aristoBrat said:


> Interestingly, AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile don't allow that anymore.


Verizon typically offers a 6 month early upgrade, i.e. after 18 months on contract, the next phone can be ordered, and 2 yr cycle starts again.


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## aristoBrat (Dec 30, 2002)

crxssi said:


> Nor Sprint. As far as I know, no carrier ever allowed that. If you want out of a contract, you pay a hefty fee. Would be the same with TiVo if you had a subsidized DVR. Often they will let you upgrade a little early as a bonus to keep you locked in, though.


Sorry, was referring to an "early upgrade", where they let you sign a new contract when you're towards the end of an existing contract. Like what JoeTaxpayer mentions in the post above.


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## PaulNEPats (Aug 11, 2007)

JoeTaxpayer said:


> Verizon typically offers a 6 month early upgrade, i.e. after 18 months on contract, the next phone can be ordered, and 2 yr cycle starts again.


They stopped doing this

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2


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## 483 (Feb 10, 2000)

shortys408 said:


> get them to add lifetime for 199 on your premier, and than sell the box.


Hey I am interested. Is this something TiVo is doing now? Any tricks? Thanks


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

No matter what incentives you may decide to offer to encourage adoption of a new product, the one thing you do first is take advantage of everyone willing to pay full price to get it now. It would be stupid for TiVo to offer anything special on the Roamio's for at least a month or two, if not longer. You don't give something away someone is willing to pay for if you don't have to.


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## No1hedberg (Mar 14, 2013)

bklinc said:


> TiVo is obviously not too anxious to encourage existing TiVo owners to upgrade to a Roamio! I attempted to do so today, but they wont cancel my old service contract (goes to 2/2014) and start a new service contract on the Roamio.!


You are trying to get out of your last agreement without paying, why would they expect that you will honor the new one? Frankly i'm not sure why you feel that your such a special customer that you don't have to follow the same rules everyone else does. If this upsets you this much, and you really want to screw around with vcr's I'd say your best bet is to part ways. TiVo isn't for everybody. BTW $15 x 6 months remaining is $90. Just sayin.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

dswallow said:


> No matter what incentives you may decide to offer to encourage adoption of a new product, the one thing you do first is take advantage of everyone willing to pay full price to get it now. It would be stupid for TiVo to offer anything special on the Roamio's for at least a month or two, if not longer. You don't give something away someone is willing to pay for if you don't have to.


I agree with this.

I expect all of us buying now are paying more than we will have too in a few months, my guess is at least $100 more for the base Roamio with lifetime (my guess - $600+/- now vs $500+/- by Christmas). I decided buying now was worth it to me.

Expecting TiVo to give you a special deal on these now is just foolish.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> Expecting TiVo to give you a special deal on these now is just foolish.


But also based off history since every new series except maybe the series 2 has had an upgrade offer at launch.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> But also based off history since every new series except maybe the series 2 has had an upgrade offer at launch.


Are you sure?

I believe the TiVo HD wasn't discounted at all until almost 12 months in. I bought mine about 1 year in when they offered it at $100 off which I believe was the first deal/offer I had. Just as a side note there was also no lifetime offered for the first year of the TiVo HD either, when I ordered it lifetime wasn't available by the time it was delivered they were offering it again so I spent $500 (plus sales tax) for a TiVo HD with lifetime.

For the Premiere I believe the upgrade offers started pretty fast (I bought mine about 9 months in), but we all know why TiVo had to do that. The Premiere with lifetime deals where $500+/- and the Roamio with MSD Lifetime is $600+/- now so they may have the deals already baked in.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

atmuscarella said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> I believe the TiVo HD wasn't discounted at all until almost 12 months in. I bought mine about 1 year in when they offered it at $100 off which I believe was the first deal/offer I had. Just as a side note there was also no lifetime offered for the first year of the TiVo HD either, when I ordered it lifetime wasn't available by the time it was delivered they were offering it again so I spent $500 (plus sales tax) for a TiVo HD with lifetime.
> 
> For the Premiere I believe the upgrade offers started pretty fast (I bought mine about 9 months in), but we all know why TiVo had to do that. The Premiere with lifetime deals where $500+/- and the Roamio with MSD Lifetime is $600+/- now so they may have the deals already baked in.


I missed the TiVo HD and Series 3 launch, but I believe those had the $199 lifetime transfer option. I remember people comparing it to the Premiere since the Premiere wasn't the transfer. Maybe it wasn't at launch then, but I swear people said it was.

The Premiere launched with the upgrade offer, but you had to buy direct from TiVo. I preordered both of my XLs this way. They offered $199 lifetime upgrade with eligible box. You got to keep lifetime on your old TiVo also.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Well, this is the first box in a while with so much hype and product love from media outlets. No need to discount to get the early adopters/fast followers to buy, as was necessary with other launches. 

Hmm, does Apple provide discounts on new launches? Not a bad pricing model to follow if your product is popular.


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## trade (Sep 1, 2005)

I think that TiVo is worse that cell carriers and phone manufacturers, because is both at the same time.

I got a Tivo Elite at March 2012 because I need the 4 decoders because 2 are not enough at this recording series style life, I purchase the extended warranty and lifetime subscription. So a few month after they decide change the name from Elite to Premiere 4XL, well suppose only a faceplate name change but my Elite was depreciated instantly.

Now the new line coming more than a year after and I welcome the 6 decoders inside and new improvements in the User Interface, the Netflix & YouTube fix (that never work on my Premiere 4 series), but I cannot accept that the old Tivo 4 series cannot gets the updates right away and we'll wait unknown term to get some new version. 

By example Apple is working in the iOS7 and an old phone like iPhone 4 can be updated to this new version maybe not all the features but the most at the same day will be released to the new phones 5S. Tivo is making obsoletes our DVRs and pushing to buy a new hardware and a lifetime service with a big disadvantage to their customers.

In the AT&T case I can upgrade my phone with the same subsidy price after certain time and get an extension of contract (such a lifetime service pay) but I don't pay the full price at the beginning of the contract.

I got a Tivo Mini to replace a Tivo Premiere at my Kids Room, at first I thinked get a Lifetime Service ($150) on it but maybe 2 years service was not enough time to get a new model coming. Today TiVo with the Roamio Series make think the nonsense of pay a lifetime service when you will get in less of 2 years a new model with more features, with not upgrade path, and the same cost of purchase a new box and new lifetime service to the loyal customers.

So meantime TiVo realizes that the Roamio would not sells as good it expects and makes me an offer to the Black Friday or Christmas, I got a 1TB DVR Expander on Ebay to my old Elite and save my money to purchase the new PS4 that will play better Netflix and YouTube streams that the old Tivo system.

Trade


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

I think Tivo could easily offer the original poster a compromise. Why not give him a new Roamio with a one-year commitment plus the remaining on the old unit (18 mos.) instead of the standard one year? Maybe even require return of the original equipment (a TRUE upgrade).

Maybe their software cannot handle it, but I would think they could do something to make that work.


What I do not support is what the OP was tying to do: stop the subsidy subscription in favor of the new subsidy subscription with no penalty. As has been pointed out repeatedly, this is a definite loser for Tivo. If they constantly did this, they would go under fast.

"lose money on every sale but make it up in volume"


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## jhilla (May 13, 2011)

I see walmart is selling them, but they are going fast.

http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=roamio&ic=16_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=0


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

The sell-out nature of this initial release is just going to prove that Tivo, at this time, has no incentive to offer special upgrades. Either they have TONS of new customers who have been waiting for a Tivo DVR solution, or have TONS of older generation customers who have wanted a new HD box. 

Great for Tivo, bad for me to have to wait to upgrade until (hopefully) the price drops after the holidays!


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jrtroo said:


> The sell-out nature of this initial release is just going to prove that Tivo, at this time, has no incentive to offer special upgrades. Either they have TONS of new customers who have been waiting for a Tivo DVR solution, or have TONS of older generation customers who have wanted a new HD box.
> 
> Great for Tivo, bad for me to have to wait to upgrade until (hopefully) the price drops after the holidays!


I don't know if it is truly a sellout nature rather than slow initial stock. My local BB still doesn't show any stock and have yet to get them. You still can't order the Pro from BB, but you can the Plus except it is backordered and has been since it showed up. The base is available and has been online, but still no stock in Florida. I tried asking a manger when their shipment was coming in, but all he could tell me is soon. This is the same response BB is giving in their forums.

Weaknees was waiting for their shipment today. Amazon gets their shipment tomorrow, but had a few boxes initially. They are also handling the shipping for TiVo though.

Walmart only shows the Pro, but ship to store by 9/2.

I think either TiVo held back the shipment and/or waited to notify the vendors until after the announcement.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Well, I'll put it another way. Can anyone ever remember tivo having a shortage of units with the release of a new box? I cannot.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

jrtroo said:


> Well, I'll put it another way. Can anyone ever remember tivo having a shortage of units with the release of a new box? I cannot.


TiVo has plenty of stock unless they have since sold out.

Like I said I think TiVo waited to ship their units to stores so it is more like a soft launch where you can only buy it direct and 30 days later the stores will have them in stock.


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## trade (Sep 1, 2005)

innocentfreak said:


> I don't know if it is truly a sellout nature rather than slow initial stock. My local BB still doesn't show any stock and have yet to get them. You still can't order the Pro from BB, but you can the Plus except it is backordered and has been since it showed up. The base is available and has been online, but still no stock in Florida. I tried asking a manger when their shipment was coming in, but all he could tell me is soon. This is the same response BB is giving in their forums.
> 
> Weaknees was waiting for their shipment today. Amazon gets their shipment tomorrow, but had a few boxes initially. They are also handling the shipping for TiVo though.
> 
> ...


I agree with you there's not enough stock, and will be a smart movement, because instead make by example 100 thousands of each model, they can measure the demand with the short stock that are offering and make more of the product most demand.

Also the lower stock is measure in the time of shipping of the Tivo sold on the own store. Be realistic this is not the new PS4 or Xbox One, inclusive I think that they will be making offers to sell the stock of old Premieres in the next month.

I will wait until December to see what Tivo can gives a better offer.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> I don't know if it is truly a sellout nature rather than slow initial stock. My local BB still doesn't show any stock and have yet to get them. You still can't order the Pro from BB, but you can the Plus except it is backordered and has been since it showed up. The base is available and has been online, but still no stock in Florida. I tried asking a manger when their shipment was coming in, but all he could tell me is soon. This is the same response BB is giving in their forums.
> 
> Weaknees was waiting for their shipment today. Amazon gets their shipment tomorrow, but had a few boxes initially. They are also handling the shipping for TiVo though.
> 
> ...


I had to order from the Magnolia department at one of my local BB stores. In the regional warehouse they had around 28 Roamio Pros and around 14 Roamio Plus models. Plus the Magnolia Department had 36 months no interest financing on any purchase. Supposedly it will show up at the store on Tuesday or Thursday for me to pick up.


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## mr_smits (Dec 17, 2009)

compnurd said:


> I disagree here. I think Tivo is making a huge mistake not upgrading alot of premiere owners... quite frankly they should allow anyone under contract on a premiere to purchase a roamio and restart there 1 year commitment. with the exception of the few fanatics here.. they will lose alot of customers not happy with the premieres relative performance..


Lots of complaining about decisions made. Good thing we are all adults.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr_smits said:


> Lots of complaining about decisions made. Good thing we are all adults.


If Weaknees coupon still works it still the least expensive place to purchase no tax and free shipping and $25 off the Plus ($40 off the pro and $15 of the basic). They expect more stock today or Tuesday.


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## sbiller (May 10, 2002)

I think the soft launch is intentional to allow for the few launch bugs to be discovered and corrected over the next few weeks.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> I had to order from the Magnolia department at one of my local BB stores. In the regional warehouse they had around 28 Roamio Pros and around 14 Roamio Plus models. Plus the Magnolia Department had 36 months no interest financing on any purchase. Supposedly it will show up at the store on Tuesday or Thursday for me to pick up.


I tried at might, but the manager didn't feel like it. He wouldn't even look to see if there were any coming in. Soon was his only response when I asked about the TiVo.

I know they get shipments on Tuesday and Thursday so I figure I will check the Best Buy site tomorrow.

The soft launch makes sense from a support standpoint. I just wish they had announced a firm date for stores to have stock.


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## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

trade said:


> Tivo is making obsoletes our DVRs and pushing to buy a new hardware and a lifetime service with a big disadvantage to their customers.


How is it obsolete? My Premiere XL still records the shows I want. Guide is updated daily. It's doing what I want it to do. With the Roamio Pro arriving tomorrow the Primiere XL will happily co-exit with it, giving me eight tuners and 600 hours of hD recording.


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## brianric (Aug 29, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> Like I said I think TiVo waited to ship their units to stores so it is more like a soft launch where you can only buy it direct and 30 days later the stores will have them in stock.


Plus is at my local Best Buy. My Pro arrives from Weaknees tomorrow.


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## holycrap (Jan 1, 2009)

None of these gen 3 or later boxes are obsolete, they just don't have the features of the newer boxes. I still run an HD in a guest bedroom which has no cable or antenna, but folks staying over enjoy the ability to stream from other boxes in the house and I keep a bunch of movies on that box as well.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

lessd said:


> If Weaknees coupon still works it still the least expensive place to purchase no tax


If your state charges sales tax, you are still required, by law, to report it on your state income tax forms and pay the sales taxes.

Not that anyone does it, but just saying


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

brianric said:


> Plus is at my local Best Buy. My Pro arrives from Weaknees tomorrow.


I fully expect some stores to have them in stock based on how close they are to the shipping warehouses.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

crxssi said:


> If your state charges sales tax, you are still required, by law, to report it on your state income tax forms and pay the sales taxes.
> 
> Not that anyone does it, but just saying


You are correct, and I report all my out of state purchases on my state tax return, but I don't have to do that till next April, so I am earning interest on my tax savings. I think my bank is now paying me .01% per month, the pennys add up.


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## JoeTaxpayer (Dec 23, 2008)

mr_smits said:


> Lots of complaining about decisions made. Good thing we are all adults.


I think TiVo has their beancounters who are tasked with maximizing revenue, as they should. The multi-unit discounts let me add another LT unit for $300, but of course that will create an extra unit at the back end. TiVo must know the secondary market is there for LT machines, and accepts that, VS an offer of $xx to truly 'transfer' service, i.e. kill the LT service of the old machine and for a fee, move it to the new one.

(And since an LT HD or Series 3 will still fetch $300, effectively, I have that deal already)

To the other comments about obsolescence, I recently bought a Series 2 single Tuner for my sister in law. With LT service, it was worth all of the $60 I paid, and works fine with her DTA from Comcast. She has a small TV, and one tuner is fine for her.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

holycrap said:


> None of these gen 3 or later boxes are obsolete, they just don't have the features of the newer boxes. I still run an HD in a guest bedroom which has no cable or antenna, but folks staying over enjoy the ability to stream from other boxes in the house and I keep a bunch of movies on that box as well.


Ditto to what you said. We have 2 S3 OLED's with lifetime on our primary TV (upgrades from earlier S1's) which are doing exactly what we need so right now there isn't any incentive for me to upgrade to newer hardware. They record shows, I can transfer all except HBO to my PC or between the 2 TiVo's and I can watch Netflix or listen to Pandora.

Scott


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

I don't care what kind of "upgrade incentive" they offer. I am waiting until the product is "full-featured" and not "half-baked", meaning until the Out-Of-Home streaming is deployed, and Android or browser support is added for the "non-iGarbage" crowd.

If TiVo says "_coming soon_", that means I am waiting until that feature is actually deployed. Android coming soon? No Thanks, I'll wait. Remote Streaming coming soon? No Thanks, I'll wait.

I bought a Mini with PLS because they said that a coming software update would bring DTA and I wouldn't have to lock out a tuner on my 4-tuner box. Well, we're still waiting for it. And I feel slighted and taken advantage of. Lesson learned, I will never do that again.

I'm sorry to tell TiVo that my $1,000 for a Roamio Pro with Product Lifetime Service is "COMING SOON".


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## midlomuncher (Jan 30, 2007)

NotNowChief said:


> Android or browser support is added for the "non-iGarbage" crowd.[/COLOR]


Enjoy "Open"

U.S. government finds *0.7% of all mobile malware affects iOS*, while *Android accounts for 79%* 

http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/26/u-s-government-finds-0-7-of-all-mobile-malware-affects-ios-wh/


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

holycrap said:


> None of these gen 3 or later boxes are obsolete, they just don't have the features of the newer boxes. I still run an HD in a guest bedroom which has no cable or antenna, but folks staying over enjoy the ability to stream from other boxes in the house and I keep a bunch of movies on that box as well.





HerronScott said:


> Ditto to what you said. We have 2 S3 OLED's with lifetime on our primary TV (upgrades from earlier S1's) which are doing exactly what we need so right now there isn't any incentive for me to upgrade to newer hardware. They record shows, I can transfer all except HBO to my PC or between the 2 TiVo's and I can watch Netflix or listen to Pandora.
> 
> Scott


So far the only functional obsolescence I am aware is that the Series 3 units can not record MPEG 4 channels. Other than that all Series 3 & Series 4 units can still provide all the functionality they ever could.

Sure newer units have additional features that the older units do not but that is just the way of the world. I really cannot believe anyone buys any piece of electronics and doesn't expect that there will be a newer device with features their device doesn't have soon.

So if you want new features you upgrade if you are happy with the feature set that your device has you don't. I really don't need another DVR and don't really need any more features but ordered a new Roamio anyways on the hopes it will have better OTA reception than my Premiere and just cause I wanted something new.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

midlomuncher said:


> Enjoy "Open"
> 
> U.S. government finds *0.7% of all mobile malware affects iOS*, while *Android accounts for 79%*
> 
> http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/26/u-s-government-finds-0-7-of-all-mobile-malware-affects-ios-wh/


iOS is malware.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

dswallow said:


> iOS is malware.


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## NotNowChief (Mar 29, 2012)

dswallow said:


> iOS is malware.


It sure is!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

NotNowChief said:


> I bought a Mini with PLS because they said that a coming software update would bring DTA and I wouldn't have to lock out a tuner on my 4-tuner box. Well, we're still waiting for it. And I feel slighted and taken advantage of. Lesson learned, I will never do that again.


That is already available on the Roamio and, from what I hear, is coming in September for the Premiere. So you shouldn't have to wait much longer for this.

Out of home streaming was just announced, so it seems a bit premature for you to be irritated that it's not ready yet. Had they not mentioned it in all the reviews we wouldn't even know it was coming.

Android support should probably be done by now. The Stream has been out for almost a year now, it shouldn't take that long for a company with TiVos resources to add streaming to the Android app no matter how challenging it was to accomplish.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> Android support should probably be done by now. The Stream has been out for almost a year now, it shouldn't take that long for a company with TiVos resources to add streaming to the Android app no matter how challenging it was to accomplish.


Because adaptive rate video streaming is easier than creating 5 or 6 HD text menus,..


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

dswallow said:


> Because adaptive rate video streaming is easier than creating 5 or 6 HD text menus,..


Yeah I'm definitely in the camp of the UI should be finished by now. I have no idea what the heck is taking them so long on that. All I can figure is they have one, part time, guy working on it.


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## mdscott (Jun 26, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Yeah I'm definitely in the camp of the UI should be finished by now. I have no idea what the heck is taking them so long on that. All I can figure is they have one, part time, guy working on it.


One guy who prefers to play with iOS...


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

crxssi said:


> If your state charges sales tax, you are still required, by law, to report it on your state income tax forms and pay the sales taxes.
> 
> Not that anyone does it, but just saying


What if you live in a state with no state income tax?

I know my Dad, who owns a business, has to report this kind of stuff as a "use tax" on his state/county taxes. But I don't think there is any way for a standard citizen to do it. And even if there is I doubt anyone is going to go out of their way to do it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Dan203 said:


> What if you live in a state with no state income tax?


In Florida, you file form DR15-MO (Florida Department of Revenue Out-of-State Purchase Return): http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/forms/2013/dr15mo.pdf


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

midlomuncher said:


> Enjoy "Open"
> 
> U.S. government finds *0.7% of all mobile malware affects iOS*, while *Android accounts for 79%*
> 
> http://www.tuaw.com/2013/08/26/u-s-government-finds-0-7-of-all-mobile-malware-affects-ios-wh/


That is so FULL OF CRAP

You can make statistics say anything you want. Malware in Android when the ecosystem is USED PROPERLY through Google Play is almost a non-issue, no worse than iOS. It is only when one starts loading unsafe crap from unconfirmed sources does it get dangerous... and AT LEAST ANDROID GIVES YOU THAT CHOICE.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

crxssi said:


> That is so FULL OF CRAP
> 
> You can make statistics say anything you want. Malware in Android when the ecosystem is USED PROPERLY through Google Play is almost a non-issue, no worse than iOS. It is only when one starts loading unsafe crap from unconfirmed sources does it get dangerous... and AT LEAST ANDROID GIVES YOU THAT CHOICE.


It's probably true, but a loaded statistic none the less. Mobile malware is rare, regardless of the platform. 79% of nothing is still nothing.


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## crxssi (Apr 5, 2010)

Dan203 said:


> It's probably true, but a loaded statistic none the less. Mobile malware is rare, regardless of the platform. 79% of nothing is still nothing.


As a blanket statement (in huge letters, no less) it was extremely misleading. And I suspect the vast majority of people reading it would be led to one of several invalid conclusions. Which is why I huge lettered the reply right back.


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