# Apple TV could over take TiVo?: AppleInsider



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Story here. Thoughts? Flames?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rampant speculation and wishful thinking.

I think that's all it is.


So, really, just another day in the fun filled Apple rumor mill.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Its a product that only appeals to Apple fans. While it is a nice product, it has a small market.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

rainwater said:


> Its a product that only appeals to Apple fans. While it is a nice product, it has a small market.


...ah, yes, but, as pointed out, a larger actual market than TiVo. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it'll happen either. But I'm both an Apple AND TiVo fanatic.


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## Gospel (May 22, 2005)

Anyway, IIRC, AppleTV is not a DVR. It only plays shows from a PC or Mac with iTunes. IMO, not a TiVo-killer at all. It is a somewhat different market.

Enjoy life!
Steven


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> Its a product that only appeals to Apple fans. While it is a nice product, it has a small market.


no more so than the iPod.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Gospel said:


> Anyway, IIRC, AppleTV is not a DVR. It only plays shows from a PC or Mac with iTunes. IMO, not a TiVo-killer at all. It is a somewhat different market.
> 
> Enjoy life!
> Steven


but that's the speculation. That it can and will be more. Right now, as we have seen it so far, it's not a standlone box. It needs a computer running iTunes to serve it data.


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm not sanguine about Tivo's future prospects, but I agree Apple TV will be a product for Apple fans only. It's overpriced for what it delivers, and the "all roads lead to Apple" approach for content isn't exactly compelling.

With iPod, you could at least rip your CD collection fairly easily, and as I understand that's what iPod users mostly do for content (other than illegal downloads).


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

mportuesi said:


> I'm not sanguine about Tivo's future prospects, but I agree Apple TV will be a product for Apple fans only. It's overpriced for what it delivers, and the "all roads lead to Apple" approach for content isn't exactly compelling.
> 
> With iPod, you could at least rip your CD collection fairly easily, and as I understand that's what iPod users mostly do for content (other than illegal downloads).


well, you can rip your own DVDs, too. Not sure if that make much sense though, as the AppleTV is not portable like the iPod. As for LEGAL downloads? There have been over 1 Billion songs downloaded by iTunes users. So, there is SOME on-line stuff being done with music. I suspect more and more video will be done the same way. Apple ads more and more TV shows to the store, and now movies. Right now, it's one of the better places to shop online for an episode of a TV show and download it.

but people are right that the Apple TV as we have seen it so far is no TiVo (or any other DVR ) killer..


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## pkscout (Jan 11, 2003)

hmmm. Another TiVo killer. I think TiVo might be the only product for which there are more "killers" released every month than for the iPod.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Bierboy said:


> Story here. Thoughts? Flames?


I have said it before and I will say it again. Apple has little business interest in making a DVR. They want to sell download content and good on Apple for making that such a great business model that the content owners had to take notice. :up:

So as long as I still see value in having cable/Sat TV service then I will have a DVR and it will not be Apple.

If Apple lowers the price from 1.99 per episode or 3.99 to rent a movie then it will also start beating down Netflix's door for susbcription rentals. If UNBOX and Apple stay at those VOD price levels then they are just another way to get the same content at the same price which will pick off enough users to make some money but not change things like the iPod did. That chnaged the fact you no longer had to buy the whole darn CD to get the 1 or 4 songs you wanted.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Damn you Bilbrey!


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

This device makes Apple TV somewhat more Tivo-like:

http://www.miglia.com/products/video/tvmaxplus/index.html


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> no more so than the iPod.


Actually, its only market is iTunes users who purchase video content from iTunes. So the market is much smaller than the ipod users. Unless you have the majority of your video content in iTunes, the Apple TV product is worthless.


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## jbrasure (Jan 1, 2007)

rainwater said:


> Its a product that only appeals to Apple fans. While it is a nice product, it has a small market.


Actually, the AppleTV is compatible with Windows PCs too.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> Actually, its only market is iTunes users who purchase video content from iTunes. So the market is much smaller than the ipod users. Unless you have the majority of your video content in iTunes, the Apple TV product is worthless.


yeah... But the whole idea is you add video content iTunes just like people added music content to iTunes. Apple wants to control the whole thing, end to end, just like they do with the iPod. We'll see if it works. I don't think for a second it will be as much of a smash hit as the iPod. It will take a while to it to catch on. But, we'll see..


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jbrasure said:


> Actually, the AppleTV is compatible with Windows PCs too.


I said Apple fans, not Mac users.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> yeah... But the whole idea is you add video content iTunes just like people added music content to iTunes. Apple wants to control the whole thing, end to end, just like they do with the iPod. We'll see if it works. I don't think for a second it will be as much of a smash hit as the iPod. It will take a while to it to catch on. But, we'll see..


The vast majority of iPod users rarely buy anything from iTunes. Considering that it is pretty much the only way to get content onto the AppleTV, I fail to see how it will be of interest to most of the TV-viewing public.


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## Lyrical1 (Oct 13, 2002)

If I want to download "Little Miss Sunshine" I can do that at Amazon.com/Unbox and download it to my TiVo. However, I can't do that at iTunes since it's not available there.

If I want to download "The Incredibles" I can do that at iTunes and download it to my Mac. However, I can't do that at Amazon.com/Unbox since it's not available there. Soon, though I'll be able to watch that on my TV through Apple's iTV, but it won't be stored on my TiVo.

Is there a way to use TiVoToGo or Home Media Features to upload easily to my TiVo the movie I purchase and download from iTunes (that isn't available at Unbox)?

Am I missing something here or does this seem like a messy situation?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Lyrical1 said:


> If I want to download "Little Miss Sunshine" I can do that at Amazon.com/Unbox and download it to my TiVo. However, I can't do that at iTunes since it's not available there.
> 
> If I want to download "The Incredibles" I can do that at iTunes and download it to my Mac. However, I can't do that at Amazon.com/Unbox since it's not available there. Soon, though I'll be able to watch that on my TV through Apple's iTV, but it won't be stored on my TiVo.
> 
> ...


That messy situation is what they both intended. You could burn the Unbox one to DVD I think, and then rip it back and play via iTunes. Not sure if the reverse applies for the iTunes purchase. But in either case, it makes more sense to just buy the DVD.


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## wolflord11 (Jan 17, 2007)

You mean Apple is still around?

But the article made some good morning conversation! LOL.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I think the everyday plain ol' DVD will be around for awhile.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MickeS said:


> That messy situation is what they both intended. You could burn the Unbox one to DVD I think, and then rip it back and play via iTunes. Not sure if the reverse applies for the iTunes purchase. But in either case, it makes more sense to just buy the DVD.


you can only put the unbox file in all its DRM goodness on a DVD as abackup. It is not an ISO file or playable in a regular DVD player. So the method you thought of will not be the way.

These will indeed be messy wars for the video download treasure, I predict having my Netflix account for some time to come


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

MickeS said:


> The vast majority of iPod users rarely buy anything from iTunes. Considering that it is pretty much the only way to get content onto the AppleTV, I fail to see how it will be of interest to most of the TV-viewing public.


Apple keeps saying that... But I gotta wonder where all those songs are going in most iPod owners aren't downloading them.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

MickeS said:


> The vast majority of iPod users rarely buy anything from iTunes. Considering that it is pretty much the only way to get content onto the AppleTV, I fail to see how it will be of interest to most of the TV-viewing public.


Are you so sure about that ? Why would Apple so severely limit what kind of content you could plop on to the AppleTV ? (yeah, yeah, yeah... $$$ I know).

I'd tend to think that the AppleTV would follow the iPod as far as it's interaction with iTunes and your content. For example, I can take my MP3's that I've ripped via other means (EAC + LAME, for example) and put 'em on my iPod without much problems at all. I can similarly take some DVDs and get 'em onto my 5G video iPod as well, although the legality of this maneuver is still a bit grey, admittedly.

Why wouldn't the same hold true with AppleTV ? If it's an AppleTV compatible format, why wouldn't you be able to import it into iTunes and sync it to the AppleTV ?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

PaulS said:


> Are you so sure about that ? Why would Apple so severely limit what kind of content you could plop on to the AppleTV ? (yeah, yeah, yeah... $$$ I know).
> 
> I'd tend to think that the AppleTV would follow the iPod as far as it's interaction with iTunes and your content. For example, I can take my MP3's that I've ripped via other means (EAC + LAME, for example) and put 'em on my iPod without much problems at all. I can similarly take some DVDs and get 'em onto my 5G video iPod as well, although the legality of this maneuver is still a bit grey, admittedly.
> 
> Why wouldn't the same hold true with AppleTV ? If it's an AppleTV compatible format, why wouldn't you be able to import it into iTunes and sync it to the AppleTV ?


you should be able to. The question is, does it make sense to rip your DVDs and store them in iTunes and then maybe sync them to the AppleTV (or just stream them as needed)

But Apple certainly WANTS you to get the content from iTunes store.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> you should be able to. The question is, does it make sense to rip your DVDs and store them in iTunes and then maybe sync them to the AppleTV (or just stream them as needed)
> 
> But Apple certainly WANTS you to get the content from iTunes store.


Well, in my case it certainly wouldn't make any sense, since the AppleTV would sit right next to my DVD player. I suspect that would be the case in an overwhelming majority of installations as well.

However, given a proper transcoding application, it'd be a fairly efficient means of watching various downloaded content (of both legal and illicit sourcing) on your TV. Not that I advocate that at all. Just saying it'd make it easier to watch that kinda stuff on your TV.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

PaulS said:


> Are you so sure about that ? Why would Apple so severely limit what kind of content you could plop on to the AppleTV ? (yeah, yeah, yeah... $$$ I know).
> 
> I'd tend to think that the AppleTV would follow the iPod as far as it's interaction with iTunes and your content. For example, I can take my MP3's that I've ripped via other means (EAC + LAME, for example) and put 'em on my iPod without much problems at all. I can similarly take some DVDs and get 'em onto my 5G video iPod as well, although the legality of this maneuver is still a bit grey, admittedly.
> 
> Why wouldn't the same hold true with AppleTV ? If it's an AppleTV compatible format, why wouldn't you be able to import it into iTunes and sync it to the AppleTV ?


Like you pointed out, there is a big difference between ripping CDs and ripping DVDs. There is as far as I know no commercially available legal software that will let you rip copy-protected DVDs. I sincereley doubt that Apple will make the legal and technical effort to make iTunes able to rip DVD, when they don't even want that, but instead want you to buy content from them.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Like you pointed out, there is a big difference between ripping CDs and ripping DVDs. There is as far as I know no commercially available legal software that will let you rip copy-protected DVDs. I sincereley doubt that Apple will make the legal and technical effort to make iTunes able to rip DVD, when they don't even want that, but instead want you to buy content from them.


there is software that rips DVDs. I have some. It didn't cost money, but there is software that DOES cost money that is used for this purpose.

iTunes may not rip a DVD, but you can use this software to do it. I'm 100% that these software packages will have pre-set settings to make it formatted properly for AppleTV. (in fact, the software may already be available. the specs for what AppleTV will play have been available for some time.)

Really, not different than people ripping DVDs for iPod with video. Apple isn't stopping anyone. No more so than TiVo stopped people from taking the encrypted files from a TiVo, put them on a comouter, and make DVDs. (this was all before TiVo To Go)


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

PaulS said:


> Well, in my case it certainly wouldn't make any sense, since the AppleTV would sit right next to my DVD player. I suspect that would be the case in an overwhelming majority of installations as well.
> 
> However, given a proper transcoding application, it'd be a fairly efficient means of watching various downloaded content (of both legal and illicit sourcing) on your TV. Not that I advocate that at all. Just saying it'd make it easier to watch that kinda stuff on your TV.


yes. for downloaded content, it would. For me, an AppleTV would be ideal for this. Sure, there are several other solutions, but this one is neat.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

Probably not a ton of transcoding applications out there, since AppleTV is only H.264. If it were Divx/Xvid, it'd be a whole other story, but that's not the case.

Here's a likely candidate that's probably worth a look, given the ease of use of their iPod specific variant :

Videora for AppleTV


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> there is software that rips DVDs. I have some. It didn't cost money, but there is software that DOES cost money that is used for this purpose.
> 
> iTunes may not rip a DVD, but you can use this software to do it. I'm 100% that these software packages will have pre-set settings to make it formatted properly for AppleTV. (in fact, the software may already be available. the specs for what AppleTV will play have been available for some time.)
> 
> Really, not different than people ripping DVDs for iPod with video. Apple isn't stopping anyone. No more so than TiVo stopped people from taking the encrypted files from a TiVo, put them on a comouter, and make DVDs. (this was all before TiVo To Go)


I know all that.  I have ripping software too, but it's not available commercially, because it's not really legal (not sure if it's directly illegal, but the fact that the software that used to be available was forced off the market indicates that at least). So really, it could be done, but the "regular Joe" that uses iTunes to rip music today will not be able to use iTunes to rip DVDs.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/03/so_apple_tv_is_.html


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

MickeS said:


> I know all that.  I have ripping software too, but it's not available commercially, because it's not really legal (not sure if it's directly illegal, but the fact that the software that used to be available was forced off the market indicates that at least). So really, it could be done, but the "regular Joe" that uses iTunes to rip music today will not be able to use iTunes to rip DVDs.


I actually do think it is available commerically. Roxio had a product called "Popcorn" for OS X. And relly, what is commerical? None of the stuff I have used has been secret underground stuff.

The regular joes will figure it out. They already do for the iPod.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

PaulS said:


> Probably not a ton of transcoding applications out there, since AppleTV is only H.264. If it were Divx/Xvid, it'd be a whole other story, but that's not the case.
> 
> Here's a likely candidate that's probably worth a look, given the ease of use of their iPod specific variant :
> 
> Videora for AppleTV


Does that copy/convert from copy-protected DVDs?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> I actually do think it is available commerically. Roxio had a product called "Popcorn" for OS X. And relly, what is commerical? None of the stuff I have used has been secret underground stuff.
> 
> The regular joes will figure it out. They already do for the iPod.


Did popcorn rip copy-protected DVDs? I have Nero, and it rips DVDs - if they're not copy-protected.

EDIT: looked it up - Popcorn does not let you copy encrypted DVDs.

I'm not saying it has to be secret underground stuff, but it's still fairly specialized products. Far from the CD-ripping scenario compared to above.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> Really, not different than people ripping DVDs for iPod with video. Apple isn't stopping anyone. No more so than TiVo stopped people from taking the encrypted files from a TiVo, put them on a comouter, and make DVDs. (this was all before TiVo To Go)


And now we can rip DVDs to an mpeg file and bring them back to the TiVo  The Apple TV will be cool and iTunes is easy to use but it still is nothing I can not do with a TiVo and Netflix, Plus I can get both "Little Miss Sunshine" and "The incredibles" from Netflix 

and for my DVD ripping software I googled around and had what I needed in about an hour. Sure this is not for everyone and most DVDs I just play in my ToshiVo anyhow but if I wanted some archive of movies I could easily set that up now with the AppleTV. I am just not seeing the groundbreaking application here but then again portable MP3 players were already around when the iPod came out.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Does that copy/convert from copy-protected DVDs?


aren't all DVDs bought copy protected?

I've used Handbrake on OS X to rip DVDs to QuickTime H.264. Those files should play on AppleTV. They even came out with a special version dedicated to ripping jsut to the right specs for iPods. It's not underground software or anything like that.

They will (do?) have a version that will have AppleTV settings.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> aren't all DVDs bought copy protected?
> 
> I've used Handbrake on OS X to rip DVDs to QuickTime H.264. Those files should play on AppleTV. They even came out with a special version dedicated to ripping jsut to the right specs for iPods. It's not underground software or anything like that.
> 
> They will (do?) have a version that will have AppleTV settings.


Well, yeah and I have software for the PC that strips the copy-protection from the DVDs and rips them. But see above... it's not mainstream products like iTunes.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Well, yeah and I have software for the PC that strips the copy-protection from the DVDs and rips them. But see above... it's not mainstream products like iTunes.


doesn't need to be mainstream for it to work. If it works, it works. People that want to do it will find it on their own or by asking someone.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Does that copy/convert from copy-protected DVDs?


I don't believe so. I think it takes content that's already on your hard drive and transcodes it to a AppleTV compatible format.

You'd have to rip the DVD before you could transcode it for the AppleTV. Same as you would with an iPod.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I am just not seeing the groundbreaking application here but then again portable MP3 players were already around when the iPod came out.


Well, it could actually be one of the few available media streamers that doesn't suck, for starters. It seems that anything that's out right now has one or more major faults, whether it be no HD support, crappy and/or stuttering playback, poor network connectivity, etc.

The only faults that I see with the AppleTV are its limited codec support (H.264 only) and the perceived notion of the dreaded "Apple DRM Lock-In".


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Bierboy said:


> Story here. Thoughts? Flames?


This just in from SeekingAalpha:

http://biz.yahoo.com/seekingalpha/070320/30110_id.html?.v=1&quicken=2

More Thoughts? More Flames?


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

just more wishful thinking. Hell, people here have said Apple should buy TiVo.


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> doesn't need to be mainstream for it to work. If it works, it works. People that want to do it will find it on their own or by asking someone.


You're arguing against the point. Apple exists to provide appealing, _simple_ ways for people to access technology.

I'm not interested in finding an underground DVD ripper, then automating the process of ripping and transcoding, then importing into iTunes and entering metadata about all of the DVDs I own. I'm a software engineer by trade, I used to write video software for a living, I'm quite capable of tracking down what I need and making this happen.

But I'd really rather just shove a DVD in the slot and have it Work. Apple exists to provide that level of simplicity. And with Apple TV, you get that only if you go through iTunes. (iTunes does make it possible to shove a CD in the slot and have it Work for an iPod).

That's why people here are making the point that DVD (or any other non-H.264 format) is not part of Apple TV's feature set.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

mportuesi said:


> You're arguing against the point. Apple exists to provide appealing, _simple_ ways for people to access technology.
> 
> .


They give that. Via downloads. And if you want more, they don't block it. That's all I'm saying. Some peopel think the ONLY way to get stuff is from iTunes. It's not. People think that about iPods, too. And it's not true.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

AppleTV is much more of a threat to DVD purchases then it is to Tivo. Nothing it does is comparable to what Tivo does.

But it's very much comparable with buying a DVD and playing it on your TV. You buy a movie at Itunes and play it on your TV.

-smak-


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

rainwater said:


> Its a product that only appeals to Apple fans. While it is a nice product, it has a small market.


BS. Living proof.

(I'm not denying there's a subatantial intersecion set in those two groups - but it isn't an exclusive 'only' relationship as you imply.)

As for the story - gosh I hope not! Just because they both make good products does NOT mean a merged company would make good DVRs. They'd make restrictive, overpriced, locked-to-limited-source DVRs, more likely (even without CableLabs forcing them to)


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

Considering that i had to buy a third party software (not expensive but about $15 for iGadget) to get the music off my wife's iPod and back onto her laptop (and a fresh version of iTunes) after sending it out to CompUSA, Apple is not going to provide an easy way to rip DVD's. DVD's have copy-protection which was not supposed to be broken -- although there has been software (dvd x copy) that was on the market, and the company that made it (321 studios) is now out of business. apple won't violate the digital millenium copyright act (dmca) because they know they will either get sued (and they have the deep pockets that the mpaa could go after) or will be shut out of getting content from the studios. and apple doesn't want to get shut out of selling copy-protected songs, tv shows, and movies, which tie you to their hardware forever.



mportuesi said:


> You're arguing against the point. Apple exists to provide appealing, _simple_ ways for people to access technology.
> 
> I'm not interested in finding an underground DVD ripper, then automating the process of ripping and transcoding, then importing into iTunes and entering metadata about all of the DVDs I own. I'm a software engineer by trade, I used to write video software for a living, I'm quite capable of tracking down what I need and making this happen.
> 
> ...


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Liberal Literary License ...



mportuesi said:


> You're arguing against the point. Apple exists to provide appealing, _simple_ and highly overpriced but profitable (to *them*) ways for people to access technology.


(BTW - more power to them, and much respect - but that's a big part of the reason I don't want them buying MY favorite can't-live-without tech company  )


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

hmmm...

maybe the humax dvd burner is a bit overrated.

it seems like could get a dull DVD content on my bedroom tivo without plugging my laptop in.



ZeoTiVo said:


> And now we can rip DVDs to an mpeg file and bring them back to the TiVo  The Apple TV will be cool and iTunes is easy to use but it still is nothing I can not do with a TiVo and Netflix, Plus I can get both "Little Miss Sunshine" and "The incredibles" from Netflix
> 
> and for my DVD ripping software I googled around and had what I needed in about an hour. Sure this is not for everyone and most DVDs I just play in my ToshiVo anyhow but if I wanted some archive of movies I could easily set that up now with the AppleTV. I am just not seeing the groundbreaking application here but then again portable MP3 players were already around when the iPod came out.


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

How many people buys enough video content from iTunes to make it worthwhile to spend another $300 on AppleTV to stream it to the TV?

If the S3 is a box that only plays video downloaded from Amazon (even if in HD), how many will shell out $300 for it, without monthly fee?

I know most people consider $2 for a TV episode to be too much, that's why iTunes, Unbox, and MSFT download are not that popular. It's the same reason most people rip their own CD's, rather than paying iTunes $1/song for most of their music on iPod.


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## footmasta (Dec 1, 2005)

I don't think the appleTv is over priced. A 30 gig ipod is $250.00. 
Like someone else said, all the other media streamers suck and this could be worth buying since its apple. I personally wouldn't mind storing my DVD collection on my computer and stream it to my tv with my music. They MIGHT end up updating itunes so you can import your own personal DVD's just like CD's in the future. 

We didn't have to buy a tivo we could have just stuck to a VCR, but we got the Tivo anyways.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

footmasta said:


> Iall the other media streamers suck and this could be worth buying since its apple.


 well no bias in this post. hehe


> We didn't have to buy a tivo we could have just stuck to a VCR, but we got the Tivo anyways.


and TiVo would let you keep all those movies on a PC or a MAC (at least using Galleon) and watch them on your TV via the TiVo. only difference is it copies the movie and your network has to be capable of moving the content. My network is and I see no reason buying something else to do the same thing - even if it is a well engineered solution like Apple usually provides.


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## mportuesi (Nov 11, 2002)

ashu said:


> Liberal Literary License ...
> 
> and highly overpriced but profitable (to them)
> 
> (BTW - more power to them, and much respect - but that's a big part of the reason I don't want them buying MY favorite can't-live-without tech company  )


Apple is "highly overpriced" only if you don't appreciate, or don't need, the level of simplicity and ease-of-use they bring to their products.

Just because simplicity is not a tangible item like processor clock speed or storage capacity, doesn't mean it lacks value.

That said, I don't think Apple TV - a product that brings simplicity to downloading through their store, but doesn't make broadcast, DVD, or any other online content easy to view - is worth what they're asking. And it's why I'm not buying one.


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## footmasta (Dec 1, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well no bias in this post. hehe


Not really I don't own anything apple YET....



ZeoTiVo said:


> and TiVo would let you keep all those movies on a PC or a MAC (at least using Galleon) and watch them on your TV via the TiVo. only difference is it copies the movie and your network has to be capable of moving the content. My network is and I see no reason buying something else to do the same thing - even if it is a well engineered solution like Apple usually provides.


Very true, what if you own a Hr10-250 like me and don't wan to hack it???
Everyone have different needs and wants.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and TiVo would let you keep all those movies on a PC or a MAC (at least using Galleon) and watch them on your TV via the TiVo. only difference is it copies the movie and your network has to be capable of moving the content. My network is and I see no reason buying something else to do the same thing - even if it is a well engineered solution like Apple usually provides.


Not on my S3 it won't, now or in the near future. I have very little hope that TTG will be certified by CableLabs, which eliminates my S3 from streaming/buffering anything that resides on my PC.

In addition, the AppleTV can support HD streamed content, which neither the S2 (SD only) or S3 (no streaming yet, if ever) can accomplish.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

PaulS said:


> Not on my S3 it won't, now or in the near future. I have very little hope that TTG will be certified by CableLabs, which eliminates my S3 from streaming/buffering anything that resides on my PC.
> 
> In addition, the AppleTV can support HD streamed content, which neither the S2 (SD only) or S3 (no streaming yet, if ever) can accomplish.


ok then that is part of the cost of HD, which is why I have not gone HD yet. I use SD for ease of use and ease of cost.

For others, such as yourself the choice is different. Afre there enough people willing to do the AppleTV thing to make it go like iPod did. I still doubt it since the cost of content is pretty high and the availability of HD content to get through iTunes will be limited by licesning issues and bandwidth etc...


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

PaulS said:


> I have very little hope that TTG will be certified by CableLabs, which eliminates my S3 from streaming/buffering anything that resides on my PC.


TTG doesn't have to be certified for GoBack to work. TiVo has already said they will have a selective TTG version for S3 in the near future. Most likely it will work for non cable recordings and allow GoBack of atleast mpeg2.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

rainwater said:


> TTG doesn't have to be certified for GoBack to work. TiVo has already said they will have a selective TTG version for S3 in the near future. Most likely it will work for non cable recordings and allow GoBack of atleast mpeg2.


Wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the head's up.

I was under the (mis)understanding that MRV might be enabled shortly, but likely only for OTA stuff. Is this what you're referring to ? If so, what is the implication for GoBack, if any ?

Got any links to the deets about the "selective" TTG for the S3 ?


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## smc (Feb 1, 2007)

According to this article http://ptech.wsj.com/solution.html Apple TV is more of a competitor to XBox 360 in that it streams content from your PC/Mac to the TV.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

You are probably right, but for the wrong reasons. The MPAA would never sue Apple (or anyone) for violating the provisions in the DMCA that specifically deal with overriding a digital copy protection scheme, when the purpose of such is consistent with the fair use act. When I use software such as DVD Shrink to make a backup copy of a DVD that I own, I am performing an action that is legal under the fair use act. The DMCA, however, says it's illegal. If such a case were to go to court, there's a good chance that the DMCA would get nullified. The MPAA doesn't want that precedent set.

If Apple were to implement a feature that allowed you to rip a copy protected DVD, it would probably do so with the blessing of the MPAA since it would be ripped into a Fairplay compliant DRM'd digital file.



bilbo said:


> <snip>...apple won't violate the digital millenium copyright act (dmca) because they know they will either get sued (and they have the deep pockets that the mpaa could go after) or will be shut out of getting content from the studios. and apple doesn't want to get shut out of selling copy-protected songs, tv shows, and movies, which tie you to their hardware forever.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

Well, it seems that Apple's updated the SPEC SHEET to include a bit more info. Let me see if I can summarize the somewhat confusing details :

H.264 : Up to 5Mbps. 
1280x720 (full 720p) @ 24 fps
960x540 (1/4 1080i resolution) @ 30 fps
iTunes purchases, either 320x240 or 640x480​
MPEG-4: Up to 3 Mbps. 
Maximum resolution: 720 by 432 pixels @ 30 fps​
So, still no Divx/Xvid, but there are a few more standards supported. Not exactly sure why they broke out the iTunes purchases as a seperate resolution to be supported.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

The problem with AppleTV and anything else that's mainstream is the DRM headache. Everything is so locked down to prevent any possible illegal usage, it becomes worthless for the consumer. 

With basic modified Tivo hardware, I can run tivoserver on my PC, and stream just about any downloaded video directly to my TV. It doesn't matter if it's in MPEG2, H.264, DiVX, or whatever. Using opensource software, tivoserver automatically transcodes the video into a Tivo compliant stream, and sends it to the Tivo. Using Bittorrent, I can download the latest episode of 24, and start watching on my Tivo in less than an hour.

I still buy DVD's for the kids. However, I used to rip them to my computer, and then stream them to my Tivo so the kids can watch them easily, without getting their greasy fingers on a DVD. Now, I have a couple of DVD's still in the shrink wrap. It's easier for me to download an XviD version of the movie online than it is to rip it myself. If Hollywood would just embrace the new distro technology, they could profit off it. If NBC would put episodes of Heroes up on Bittorrent with commercials, I'd download it. Instead, they only offer streamed episodes, which I have to watch in a web browser, with all the studders inherent


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

PaulS said:


> Not exactly sure why they broke out the iTunes purchases as a seperate resolution to be supported.


part of the game Apple palys with the MPAA - they keep the video resolution low enough so that it is not a perfect digital copy and thus breaking the Encryption is mostly done for fair use stuff like being able to play the file somewhere else (such as copied to a TiVo or portable device other than iPod)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

beanpoppa said:


> If Hollywood would just embrace the new distro technology, they could profit off it. If NBC would put episodes of Heroes up on Bittorrent with commercials, I'd download it. Instead, they only offer streamed episodes, which I have to watch in a web browser, with all the studders inherent


umm - that is what they are starting to do with things like Unbox and iTunes except you have to pay for it and all the content is not there yet.

do you seriously think commercials in a downloadable version would be watched? Most advertisers would see little value in such commercials being included


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

Aren't DivX and XviD MPEG4?



PaulS said:


> Well, it seems that Apple's updated the SPEC SHEET to include a bit more info. Let me see if I can summarize the somewhat confusing details :
> 
> H.264 : Up to 5Mbps.
> 1280x720 (full 720p) @ 24 fps
> ...


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

beanpoppa said:


> The problem with AppleTV and anything else that's mainstream is the DRM headache. Everything is so locked down to prevent any possible illegal usage, it becomes worthless for the consumer.


Sigh... iPods and AppleTV also play non-DRM material as well...



beanpoppa said:


> With basic modified Tivo hardware, I can run tivoserver on my PC, and stream just about any downloaded video directly to my TV. It doesn't matter if it's in MPEG2, H.264, DiVX, or whatever. Using opensource software, tivoserver automatically transcodes the video into a Tivo compliant stream, and sends it to the Tivo. Using Bittorrent, I can download the latest episode of 24, and start watching on my Tivo in less than an hour.


I wish I could do that with my S3. Perhaps sometime in the future, when CableLabs gets their head out of their rear-end.

I have a few issues with your solution. No HDTV is one them. Sure, you can take HD and transcode/downsample it to SD, but you lose all of the HDTV goodness. Secondly, you could just as easily torrent something, automatically kick off an H.264 transcoder and have iTunes or mt-daap sync to it. Achieves the same result as your TiVo-specific solution.



beanpoppa said:


> Aren't DivX and XviD MPEG4?


I thought that they were similar to MPEG-4, but not specifically compliant to that standard. I'm not 100% on that, though.

EDIT : Xvid uses MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Profile (ASP), so you're right. However, AppleTV only supports Simple Profile, which probably makes it incompatible with Xvid/Divx.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> do you seriously think commercials in a downloadable version would be watched? Most advertisers would see little value in such commercials being included


Of course not. TiVo put the first nail in the video advertisement coffin, and video downloads will do the same. Which is why product placements and other such ad strategies are taking hold. For example, there's no way you could skip around/past the OVER 4000 PRODUCT PLACEMENTS in last season's American Idol.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

PaulS said:


> Sigh... iPods and AppleTV also play non-DRM material as well...


AppleTV will only play what is on your iTunes library which means no divx, mpeg2, etc.


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

Actually, I saw a study that was released recently that determined that despite all the fears and cries of content owners, people with DVR's weren't skipping commercials as much as they thought. In actuality, people still tended to either watch content live, or were too lazy/forgot to skip through commercials. I suspect it would be the same with downloaded videos.

Link


PaulS said:


> Of course not. TiVo put the first nail in the video advertisement coffin, and video downloads will do the same. Which is why product placements and other such ad strategies are taking hold. For example, there's no way you could skip around/past the [URL=http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/03/21/you-cant-tivo-away-all-coca-cola-ads/]OVER 4000 PRODUCT PLACEMENTS





PaulS said:


> in last season's American Idol.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

PaulS said:


> Of course not. TiVo put the first nail in the video advertisement coffin, and video downloads will do the same. Which is why product placements and other such ad strategies are taking hold. For example, there's no way you could skip around/past the OVER 4000 PRODUCT PLACEMENTS in last season's American Idol.


yes - there are other ways to advertise and that has value implicit in the show. IF the judges of American Idol drink coke then it must be hip young and now like Simon Cowell. hehe. I kid but your point is valid. I would love easy download of shows as well but as long as people pay 1.99 to own each episode  You will only see streaming since there is gold in downloadable copies of shows that no amount af advertising will replace, plus the advertisers still get the product placement boost in either streaming or download format and that can still be charged for by the content owner

I think the more likely outcome of all this is bypassing the networks at some point to cut out the middleman distributor.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

beanpoppa said:


> Actually, I saw a study that was released recently that determined that despite all the fears and cries of content owners, people with DVR's weren't skipping commercials as much as they thought. In actuality, people still tended to either watch content live, or were too lazy/forgot to skip through commercials. I suspect it would be the same with downloaded videos.
> 
> Link



also a valid point but I think that is mainly because you have no editing features on a DVR. IF you downlaod a copy to your PC however and DRM either allows it or can be turned off than there are programs out there that can chop out the commercials. I think copies without commercials would become even more prevelant if the original file is even easier to get hold of.


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## FourFourSeven (Jan 3, 2003)

The Apple TV is a cool concept, but IMHO it's not "there" yet. However, it seems to be a first step towards a "cable TV killer" - a la carte programming.

Imagine if you could watch whatever show you wanted, whenever you wanted, either with un-skippable advertisements for free or for a minimal price (say $0.50 to watch once, and $2 to "own") without ads, in high definition. If enough content is there, suddenly, there is no need to pay $80/month for cable or satellite! For those of us who really don't watch all that much television (an hour or so a night), that has HUGE appeal.

I know I'd end up spending considerably less per month on television - probably half of what I spend now. However, the money wouldn't go to the cable company - the middleman would be cut out, and it'd go directly to the content providers, so I'd imagine they'd be satisfied with this outcome.

Who would get hurt? The cable companies.


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

Here's my deal.

I will BUY anyone a brand new apple TV if you trade me your lifetimed Tivo Series 2 or 3.

Offers open to anyone!!


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

rainwater said:


> AppleTV will only play what is on your iTunes library which means no divx, mpeg2, etc.


So, that's a format restriction/limitation, not a rights and/or ownership one. A subtle but important difference.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

FourFourSeven said:


> The Apple TV is a cool concept, but IMHO it's not "there" yet. However, it seems to be a first step towards a "cable TV killer" - a la carte programming.
> 
> Imagine if you could watch whatever show you wanted, whenever you wanted, either with un-skippable advertisements for free or for a minimal price (say $0.50 to watch once, and $2 to "own") without ads, in high definition. If enough content is there, suddenly, there is no need to pay $80/month for cable or satellite! For those of us who really don't watch all that much television (an hour or so a night), that has HUGE appeal.
> 
> ...


Yup. I think you're exactly right, provided the content providers buy into this new distribution system. The cableco's monthly TV subscriptions would become worthless to the casual viewer who watches less than a certain amount of programming per month. It's cheaper (but probably not easier) for them to go a la carte from iTunesMusicStore (or whatever entity of similar nature pops up).

Taken a step further, the TV networks themselves could be cut out of the loop, were the production houses to contract directly with Apple (or whoever else is doing the digital distribution). Sort of like indie music artists supplying their music directly to iTunes, rather than go through a music label.

PS The cableco would still get a piece of the action through their ISP fees.


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## footmasta (Dec 1, 2005)

Another thing I noticed in the spec sheet for the AppleTv in the video support section is...... 

" with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps" 


I don't see anything saying 5.1 support and 160kbps seems kinda low to me .


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

PaulS said:


> So, that's a format restriction/limitation, not a rights and/or ownership one. A subtle but important difference.


It's not the subtle. The box is designed for iTunes. They are trying to force you to use iTunes to purchase content. Otherwise, the box would have better playback support. There's a million media extenders already available that have better playback support.


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## BakedBeans (Dec 27, 2006)

rainwater said:


> Actually, its only market is iTunes users who purchase video content from iTunes. So the market is much smaller than the ipod users. Unless you have the majority of your video content in iTunes, the Apple TV product is worthless.


There's more to it than that. You do not need to use iTunes to purchase video content. You can import other video content as well. Its not just targetted at ipod, or itunes users. ANY video content can be streamed to it. Home videos, DVD's you have ripped etc.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

rainwater said:


> It's not the subtle. The box is designed for iTunes. They are trying to force you to use iTunes to purchase content. Otherwise, the box would have better playback support. There's a million media extenders already available that have better playback support.


That's your opinion, which I don't necessarily subscribe to.

Of course it's _designed_ for iTunes. With tens, if not hundreds, of millions of installed copies of iTunes floating around, they'd be foolish not to do so.

My point is, its use of H.264 does not equate to a dead set _requirement_ to purchase content from the iTunes Music Store in order to use the AppleTV. You can source your materials from wherever you'd like, legit or not, import 'em into iTunes and play 'em on your AppleTV.

So, better playback support means Xvid/Divx ? Would that make you happy ?

A million media extenders that have better playback support ? Name 'em. I'll wait... From weeks of looking around on the net, trying to find a media streamer, I'll state that there are very few, if any, that don't suck.


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## fhedemark (Oct 5, 2006)

rainwater said:


> Its a product that only appeals to Apple fans. While it is a nice product, it has a small market.


Yeah, just like the iPod......


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## Lyrical1 (Oct 13, 2002)

> Originally Posted by *PaulS*
> _Taken a step further, the TV networks themselves could be cut out of the loop, were the production houses to contract directly with Apple (or whoever else is doing the digital distribution). Sort of like indie music artists supplying their music directly to iTunes, rather than go through a music label._


It would appear that if the TV networks are cut out of the loop, the costs of software (media product) would have to go up considerably.

My guess is that currently most people still watch television "live." This provides TV networks with revenue. For most commercial TV (major networks) the reason it's free (OTA) is because of advertisers. Some advertisers (the larger ones) and the studios have decades-old relationships. The formula has worked well for them. In the early days of TV, many of the shows were produced -- as they had been for radio -- with titles like "The X Brand Hour." (Think companies like Hallmark, Palmolive, Borax, Mobil, etc.)

The stars would even plug the products as part of the deal between the advertisers and the networks. In the last twenty years or so, the studios have consolidated, partnered and are even owned by corporations that distribute the product, like CBS/Viacom/Paramount. Throw in the advertisers and you can imagine the complexity of the deals  all based on what the projected ratings (eyeballs) will be for a season, which will translate into sales of the advertisers' products.

If you take the networks out of the loop, the whole equation changes dramatically. Just like with indie rock labels, if you bypass the deep pockets of advertisers you may get dynamic and true  though probably unknown  talent producing high quality product (think what you can do with iMovie alone), but unless you are willing to take the time to research all that may be out there, little of it will ever attract eyeballs  without advertising to let you know that it's "coming April 30!"

Don't get me wrong I'd love to find shows that entertain me like my favorite network shows for inexpensive (and Apple or Tivo/Unbox "easy") download especially if they were commercial-free.

I just don't think the networks-studios-advertisers triumvirate will be going away soon. Producing indie rock, though time consuming and requiring talent, has nowhere near the cost of producing a one-camera nighttime procedural or even a three-camera 30 minute sitcom. One episode of a new drama with perhaps one big name may cost $1 or 1.5 million, depending on the many thing especially special effects ("You want one more car flying out of that parking structure and into the river and it'll cost ya' another 16 Gs!") and a host of other factors.

Of course with the micro-studio included in most computers today, a video camera and someone with knowledge of lighting, a few attractive and/or talented unknowns, who knows?

Broadcasting started to become narrowcasting with the advent of hundreds of channels of cable or satellite. Maybe enterprising talented folks will begin to make new forms of entertainment. Who said a show has to be 30 or 60 minutes, or even the same length for each episode? Maybe the mini-series becomes a ten-week series and that's it. A new paradigm might be around the corner.

Many companies produce great products, but unless they are able to let you know about -- and really want to buy them -- they often do not succeed. If hundreds of thousands of individual producers begin to make quality video product, how will the generally passive act of TV watching occur? People will need someone to guide them to "what they want to watch." That's where advertisers come back into the mix (Google ads come to mind as do the little, annoying ads for other shows you see (and sometimes hear) on channels like TBS and USA.)

As I said, though, I don't see the networks as dinosaurs rambling down the road to oblivion just yet.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

The MPAA has already sued 321 Studios (the maker of DVD X Copy) and put them out of business (because they couldn't sustain a legal fight against the MPAA) for allegedly violating the DMCA. Also, if the MPAA will sue ordinary citizens thousands of dollars for downloading/uploading a few movies (bittorrents), they could go after a deep-pocketed corporation, too.

But, like I said in my previous post, there are things you can do in conjunction with ITunes using third party software already. So I don't think Apple will officially support ripping a DVD to your hard drive, but there is some third party software that will rip DVD's to your hard drive for you.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,108133-page,1/article.html

http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,64453,00.html



beanpoppa said:


> You are probably right, but for the wrong reasons. The MPAA would never sue Apple (or anyone) for violating the provisions in the DMCA that specifically deal with overriding a digital copy protection scheme, when the purpose of such is consistent with the fair use act. When I use software such as DVD Shrink to make a backup copy of a DVD that I own, I am performing an action that is legal under the fair use act. The DMCA, however, says it's illegal. If such a case were to go to court, there's a good chance that the DMCA would get nullified. The MPAA doesn't want that precedent set.
> 
> If Apple were to implement a feature that allowed you to rip a copy protected DVD, it would probably do so with the blessing of the MPAA since it would be ripped into a Fairplay compliant DRM'd digital file.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

fhedemark said:


> Yeah, just like the iPod......


The iPod appeals to music fans, not Apple fans. The new Apple TV doesn't appeal to me at all and I have 5 iPods. If you don't have an iPod and don't use iTunes why would you buy this?


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

Lyrical1 said:


> It would appear that if the TV networks are cut out of the loop, the costs of software (media product) would have to go up considerably.
> 
> My guess is that currently most people still watch television "live." This provides TV networks with revenue. For most commercial TV (major networks) the reason it's free (OTA) is because of advertisers. Some advertisers (the larger ones) and the studios have decades-old relationships. The formula has worked well for them. In the early days of TV, many of the shows were produced -- as they had been for radio -- with titles like "The X Brand Hour." (Think companies like Hallmark, Palmolive, Borax, Mobil, etc.)
> 
> ...


Well said, and absolutely correct on many points.

That said, if advertisers do make the world go 'round, wouldn't it be in Apple's best interest to investigate the possibility of integrating some form of ads into iTunes ? Just look at the crazy money Google's pulling in doing advertising. If Apple could pull in a fraction of that related to audio/video purchases and/or subscriptions, they'd have two huge piles of money instead of the one that they have right now.

I was just hypothesizing about a possible future, not necessarily trying to shovel dirt on the graves of said dinosaurs just yet...


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

rainwater said:


> The iPod appeals to music fans, not Apple fans. The new Apple TV doesn't appeal to me at all and I have 5 iPods. If you don't have an iPod and don't use iTunes why would you buy this?


You wouldn't, and probably can't. I don't think I've read anywhere says you can use anything other than iTunes with this box. Perhaps mt-daapd (since renamed Firefly Media Server) would work, but that's far less intuitive than iTunes is.

iTunes is free, is constantly being updated and improved, and most people would say that it works very well. In fact, I believe I read somewhere recently that a significant portion of iTunes users don't even have an iPod, they simply use it as their music jukebox. It's not necessary to buy into the entire Apple ecosystem to use their products, although the symbiosis between them is a compelling argument for their products.


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## aringhof (Feb 15, 2007)

Apple has to be the most overrated product out there... the Apple tv does something that other products have done for several years now... tivo, slingbox, D-link media centers, windows media center PCs... streaming content to the television is old hat, and the Apple tv provied nothing new... stream songs to my? Puuuulease. Movies and tv shows are done with my tivo series 3. 

enough with the Apply bandwagon... their computers are not intuitive and their products are nothing special


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

rainwater said:


> The iPod appeals to music fans, not Apple fans. The new Apple TV doesn't appeal to me at all and I have 5 iPods. If you don't have an iPod and don't use iTunes why would you buy this?


People that are currently using Bittorrent to download shows (or other means) and don't want the hassle or the illegality.

People that watch a few shows and movies and don't want cable.

Gadget freaks.

Apple freaks.


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

PaulS said:


> It's not necessary to buy into the entire Apple ecosystem to use their products, although the symbiosis between them is a compelling argument for their products.


A VERY insightful post.


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

aringhof said:


> Apple has to be the most overrated product out there...


Apple is a company with many products. Obviously, you don't own any of them.


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## bilbo (Dec 7, 2004)

SlingCatcher should be available soon for about $100 less than AppleTV. You can legally pay for and download videos from BitTorrent.com or another provider (other than Apple's ITunes).

"Cohen also let people know that BitTorrent has about ten times more video content than iTunes"

http://newteevee.com/2007/03/20/bram-disses-joost



Unix_Beard said:


> People that are currently using Bittorrent to download shows (or other means) and don't want the hassle or the illegality.
> 
> People that watch a few shows and movies and don't want cable.
> 
> ...


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## Unix_Beard (Dec 22, 2003)

There are a lot of iPod competitors too. They suck in comparison. 

I'll reserve judgement on SlingCatcher and AppleTV though....


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

I'm very interested in the SlingCatcher. Have heard little detail about it since it was initially announced.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

PaulS said:


> It's not necessary to buy into the entire Apple ecosystem to use their products, although the symbiosis between them is a compelling argument for their products.


yes, say what you will about Apple and how it controls the whole product line and is not designing around easy integration with 3rd parties, at the end of the day they compete on what their products can do for the end user. You have to respect the strong products they make even if you do not use them or do not like their design approach. You have to respect what thye have done for downloadable music and keep an eye on what they are doin gfor downloadable Video.

They made the logical progression from audio to video on the iPod quite well. They are now taking the next logical step to streaming that video (audio comes along for the ride) to the Home Entertainment System/TV.

I think the disconnect here is that everyone is looking at this stand alone. AppleTV can be used that way as Apple of course wants any sales it can get. Just like you can use an iPod standalone to play your own MP3s. It just takes a little bit of extra effort on your part. The other side of this is the truly integrated and easy to use total package of iTunes, Ipod and AppleTV. Assuming they have the content you want and you are willing to pay the prices then just about anyone could easily set this up and drop cable and a DVR.

will people use this standalone in droves? no.
Will people drop everything else and use just Apple in droves? no.

Is this a compelling first step for Apple into downloadble, bypass the cable company, content.? Yes.
TiVo has its compelling first step as well. I do not predict droves of users for that either.

What I do predict is that all companies will learn from this, including networks and cable companies, and we will see more of this. there will be a network group competing with YouTube and providing network TV shows this summer for instance.

I aslo predict that more refined offerings will be comeing form both Apple and TiVo for years to come.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

jsmeeker said:


> I'm very interested in the SlingCatcher. Have heard little detail about it since it was initially announced.


Same here! I was actually surprised it wasn't out, i was looking at the sling website yesterday, and really nothing's there except the original news release.

I want to see screenshots, etc...before I decide what i want to buy.

-smak-


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

smak said:


> Same here! I was actually surprised it wasn't out, i was looking at the sling website yesterday, and really nothing's there except the original news release.
> 
> I want to see screenshots, etc...before I decide what i want to buy.
> 
> -smak-


yup... Is it vaoprware? 

Too early to say, really. But it does sound really cool.


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## PaulS (Sep 16, 2002)

Well, this didn't take long...

Hackers have already gotten quite a foothold into the AppleTV, and have enabled some form of Divx/Xvid playback on it. I'm not 100% on all of this MacOS hacking that's going on, but it looks like nice work.

AppleTV Xvid playback


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

PaulS said:


> Well, this didn't take long...
> 
> Hackers have already gotten quite a foothold into the AppleTV, and have enabled some form of Divx/Xvid playback on it. I'm not 100% on all of this MacOS hacking that's going on, but it looks like nice work.
> 
> AppleTV Xvid playback


bigger hard drives, too.


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## jlb.x (Apr 8, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> bigger hard drives, too.


Why would anyone want to do that?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> bigger hard drives, too.


Sooo ... do these fanboi hackers buy $400 200 Gb hard drives from the Apple store to use with the Apple TV?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

ashu said:


> Sooo ... do these fanboi hackers buy $400 200 Gb hard drives from the Apple store to use with the Apple TV?


The crazy thing is you can only use the device to "sync" to a single iTunes library (all other media must be streamed live). So you would have to have 2 drives big enough (one for the iTunes media and one for the Apple TV copy).


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

rainwater said:


> The crazy thing is you can only use the device to "sync" to a single iTunes library (all other media must be streamed live). So you would have to have 2 drives big enough (one for the iTunes media and one for the Apple TV copy).


I think just one.. And AFIK, Apple only sells drives as upgrades to Macs on initial order.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> I think just one.. And AFIK, Apple only sells drives as upgrades to Macs on initial order.


My point was you can only use Apple TV to sync a single iTunes library. The device can't have its own library/content on it. So you have to duplicate all the files on that device from the original PC/Mac. To me that is a waste. Why in the world can't you use the Apple TV device to store your library and to make purchases?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think the disconnect here is that everyone is looking at this stand alone. AppleTV can be used that way as Apple of course wants any sales it can get. Just like you can use an iPod standalone to play your own MP3s. It just takes a little bit of extra effort on your part.


Once again, this is simply not true. To play MP3s in iTunes or on your iPod is NO DIFFERENT than playing Apple's own format. Zero. You choose MP3 in the settings in iTunes, and it will import your CDs in that format. It reads existing MP3s off the harddrive without any need for any changes in settings, or conversions. The syncing with iPod is exactly the same, no different settings or anything, whether you use MP3 or AAC. You can purchase non-encrypted MP3s from eMusic and play them in iTunes.

This is NOT the case with video. To equate the video handling for the AppleTV with the audio handling for the iPod is wrong. To do video in non-Apple format in iTunes/AppleTV can be done, but it will take a LOT of effort.

That's why I think that this product will fail. But I've been wrong before.


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## Lyrical1 (Oct 13, 2002)

I don't want to get into the DRM issues and Apple TV. I just want to point out that there is a difference in the *quality* of the sound between MP3 files and typical Apple Lossless files (m4a). While some ears may not hear it, especially in loud background environments, MP3s tend to be lower fidelity. They are typically 10% of the size of the files on a CD and quite a large quantity of that music does not get transferred when converted to MP3 from a CD. This is normally barely audible on music with a small dynamic range (loud and louder, say), but in more subtle music it's usually more obvious.


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## jlb.x (Apr 8, 2003)

ashu said:


> Sooo ... do these fanboi hackers buy $400 200 Gb hard drives from the Apple store to use with the Apple TV?


Who you calling a fanboi?

We've met you know. 

The Western Digital drive used in the upgrade was purchased from NewEgg.


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## Bilbrey (Jan 28, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> Damn you Bilbrey!


Hey, I still love my TiVos!!!


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## brebeans (Sep 5, 2003)

Gospel said:


> Anyway, IIRC, AppleTV is not a DVR. It only plays shows from a PC or Mac with iTunes. IMO, not a TiVo-killer at all. It is a somewhat different market.
> 
> Enjoy life!
> Steven


Hi:
I LOVE Tivo and have an Ipod and iTunes.
However, on one of my TVs I now use a Comcast DVR (couldn't afford the S3).

The thing about this that appeals to me is that I think it can replace the home networking option, that I lost when I gave up my Tivo on that TV.

Is that correct?

If that's so AND I can stream some internet video and/or play my music (like I used to through Tivo), it seems worth it to me.

Does anyone know what the real limitations of this product are?

I know we're all Tivo fans, but if it does a few networking functions relatively easily, that might make sense to some of us for our TVs without Tivo.

Has anyone seen this in action?
Thanks.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

brebeans said:


> Hi:
> I LOVE Tivo and have an Ipod and iTunes.
> However, on one of my TVs I now use a Comcast DVR (couldn't afford the S3).
> 
> ...


I saw some in action in January.

The only Intenet video you can stream is movie trailers. That's done directly from the AppleTV. For TV shows, you could buy them from iTunes Store. This is what Apple is hoping you do. Or, you could setup your PC/Mac to be a DVR and have the DVR software encode them to MPEG4 H.264 and then place them in your iTunes library. You can then access them on your AppleTV (either sync them to the AppleTV or stream it from the computer in real time as needed).

For music, it will play stuff in your iTunes library.

Major limitiaion is that for video, it's MPEG-4 H.264 only. So, you'll need to transcode othter formats into that. (or hack, but that's a different topic all together)


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## EVizzle (Feb 13, 2005)

When I first heard about AppleTV, I thought it rocked. Then I heard more about it.

The beauty of the iPod is it replaced the portable CD player, the car CD player, the home CD player, all while letting you still use the CD music you own. You can take it anywhere and you don't need a huge CD collection with you, it is inside the pod.

Netflix lets you rent as many movies you want for a set monthly price. You can watch them whenever, wherever you have a DVD player or a computer.

Tivo lets you watch TV whenever, without commercials, and store them on a computer (S2) and watch them without additional cost.

Explain to me how a device that lets you download TV and Movies and watch them from your television on a per transaction basis replaces the need for either. I would network a second cheap computer and run it to my TV to watch purchased content if I had the need to do that. Getting up and putting a DVD into a computer/DVD player isn't something that needs replacement. Unless you could have a digital library accessible from any appleTV at any time, upload your own DVDs and playback away from home would you be providing anything of value.

Iwill continue to use my ipods for portable video and music, Netflix for DVDs, tivo for tv and my own two legs to watch DVDs at home.

With that said, I anxiously await the iPhone, and not the one from Cisco.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

You would think that a device like Apple TV which is marketed to HDTV owners would at least support surround sound. The more I read about Apple TV, the less I want it.


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## jdlyall (Feb 12, 2007)

MickeS said:


> The vast majority of iPod users rarely buy anything from iTunes. Considering that it is pretty much the only way to get content onto the AppleTV, I fail to see how it will be of interest to most of the TV-viewing public.


Converting any dvd ripped video (video_ts) to a quicktime mpeg4 will apparently get a video into itunes. Then to yr appleTV.

It does seem awful expensive for what it does tho. A mac mini will do that and so much more. My mac mini is hooked up to a digital wide screen tv/monitor.

Now, netflix streaming for free works awful well there. You do need Parallels and windoze installed, but works fine after that.

Oh, a mac mini and an elgato tuner/digitizer becomes a DVR and a much better apple TV.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

EVizzle said:


> With that said, I anxiously await the iPhone, and not the one from Cisco.


Sheesh, then you better not read unbiased comparisons & analyses (granted, many are based on just the one demo) of the iPhone all over the net - because that is how I feel about the iPhone now (wanted it initially, couldn't care less now)


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## Leo_N (Nov 13, 2003)

Ok, here's my take: Right now, the AppleTV is soundly whipped by any Tivo S2. When(IF!?!?) they enable any type of GoBack ability on the S3, the appleTV is soundly whipped.

The Xbox360 already soundly whips the AppleTV.

The only plus the AppleTV has is that it has a decent sized store in iTunes. The only problem is, that plus can be a plus for any of the other options above. You can use iTunes to get the media and still transcode it to either the Xbox360 or the S2 now, and as I said above, a GoBack feature on the S3 and that will work there also.

Add to this, and correct me please if I'm wrong, but I read that the AppleTV only supports stereo sound output. This pretty much eliminates its use in any home theater setup as anything but a music player, which the S2, S3 and the Xbox360 already do just as well as the AppleTV now. The only downside is if you have a huge collection of iTunes purchased DRM software, you'd have to burn and rip it to mp3 to use with the S2/S3/Xbox360 setup.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate Apple or anything. I do own an iPod (60GB black model) but I just don't see anything in this product that I like. I'm sure there are people who are exceptions to this (huge iTunes collections who don't want to mess around with transferring), and if this fits the bill for them, great! I just don't see this as a very good solution.

edit: Let me add that only with using Galleon do I think the S2/S3 surpass the AppleTvs music playing feature. Stock TiVo software music sharing, I think I'd give the AppleTV the edge.


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## snowjay (Mar 27, 2007)

jdlyall said:


> It does seem awful expensive for what it does tho. A mac mini will do that and so much more. My mac mini is hooked up to a digital wide screen tv/monitor.


The only real advantage I see the Apple TV has over Mini is the ability to automatically sync with an iTunes and iPhoto library without the need of any third party software or user intervention. This is the reason I haven't hooked my mini up to my big screen yet. Right now its headless just running my home automation software.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

It appeals to me because I have none of the other hardware listed.

No Series 2 or 3 TiVo. No XBOX 360. And I use Macs at home. AppleTV is compact and super simple to use and integrates very, very well with my exisiting computer setup. I'm a fan of very nice, clean, tight integration.

The real question for me becomes "How much money to I want to spend buying shows (TV or movies) from iTunes Store??". And that question is still the same if I had another device. I'd still have to determine how much stuff I wanted to buy from some other service. The answer that really pops into my head is "probably not all that much". So, while it's a neat little gadget, it's hard to justify. And hard to justify a similar gadget from another vendor.


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## bridgesd (Sep 8, 2005)

I played with an Apple TV at the Apple Store in Pasadena CA. I must say, it was pretty cool. The interface for browsing through your music on iTunes was way better than the TiVo music library interface (using TiVo desktop).

I've also had (mostly) good luck so far using Amazon Unbox (Idiocracy was my first rental). Quality was ok, but not DVD quality. Same for Apple TV - the movie clips that I watched were very pixelly (worse than watching an unbox video).

TiVo, now is your chance don't blow it... Add the ability to play movies stored in iTunes (or just any old videos on the computer), play AAC files, and one last missing feature: YouTube app on Music Photos & More. Enter URL: _________________.


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## robaustin (Nov 14, 2004)

The Apple TV does not display stuff in HD format. It's a downsample, and though I haven't seen it I have heard it's not as good as a DVD.

So if it's not even as good as a DVD - why bother?

Figure it on cost if you're an avid TV viewer. For me - I pay $20 a month for TIVO (two Tivos) and $45 a month for family cable (pure analog, without a cable box - yes it does still exist). Since most of the stuff on the iTunes store is on that tier - I'm not going to factor in digital cable.

So that's $65 a month. I currently watch 18 shows - so figure 18 shows times 4 times $1.99 an episode is $144 dollars through iTunes - if they even have all the stuff I want to watch.

So cable with my TIVO comes out to be less than half of what I'd pay for stuff on the iTunes store.

Moreover - My outlay for my TIvos was $50 for each. I still have the option of buying DRM'ed movies with Tivo and Amazon Unbox. I also have the option of renting movies (which you can't do with iTunes). Outlay for an AppleTV is $299 (!)

So I'm still trying to figure out what the point of the Apple TV is. It's not a DVR - so it's not like I can pause live TV, time shifting on the fly.

It seems like an overpriced waste of time when I compare it with my TIVO. Am I missing something here?

--*Rob


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

robaustin said:


> The Apple TV does not display stuff in HD format.


That's simply untrue.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> That's simply untrue.


Well, sort of. It can display h.264 format videos in 1280*720 hi-def, but not the 1920*1080 stuff. And the purchases from iTunes Store are 640*480 max.
Also, it can play mpeg-4, but only 720*432 (so no hi-def there).

So technically, it can display the lower-res version of hi-def, but what it's designed for, iTunes purchases, are not in hi-def.


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## robaustin (Nov 14, 2004)

jsmeeker said:


> That's simply untrue.


Clarification - what you get from the Apple store is not HD. Since that's where people will get most of their content for the Apple TV, it's not worth it.

--*Rob


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## Bilbrey (Jan 28, 2001)

((Personal comments))
Well, yes and no. Apple TV does decode up to 720P and can then display as either 720p or 1080i. You would be surprised how many people can not tell which mode (720P vs. 1080i) the TV is in. Both formats have the same bandwidth. Yes, they are different, but they are close... Some in fact argue that 720P is better (saying that 1080i is really more like 540P). I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they are close and that is it hard to tell...
And users have lots of HD content that they create on their own (lots of the new camcorders are HD) and they can import iMovies for display. (More folk are doing this than I would have expected...)

I'm not saying this makes it OK, or that one format is better than the other.
Simply that the formats are close and the small difference surprises folks once they actually see it on the screen. I've had friends pick the 720P as the better quality signal. And much like there are folks that know the difference between Coke and Pepsi, there are folks that will know the difference between 720P and 1080i. They should be looking at getting a Blu-ray player...


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Well, sort of. It can display h.264 format videos in 1280*720 hi-def, but not the 1920*1080 stuff. And the purchases from iTunes Store are 640*480 max.
> Also, it can play mpeg-4, but only 720*432 (so no hi-def there).
> 
> So technically, it can display the lower-res version of hi-def, but what it's designed for, iTunes purchases, are not in hi-def.


720p is hi-def.

iTunes stuff is not in HD. At least Not yet. They bumped it before, if you recall.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> 720p is hi-def.


True. I'm a 1080P proponent and even *I* don't discount 720P - it is SO vastly better than SD and current iTunes resolutions.

MickeS, that's too far a reach even for an Apple-bashernot-particularly-carer-for like me! (word form invention ftw!)


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

ashu said:


> True. I'm a 1080P proponent and even *I* don't discount 720P - it is SO vastly better than SD and current iTunes resolutions.
> 
> MickeS, that's too far a reach even for an Apple-bashernot-particularly-carer-for like me! (word form invention ftw!)


what about HD DirecTV?? Is that hi-def?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> what about HD DirecTV?? Is that hi-def?


Hmm - tough one. 1280x1080i is still not bad at all compared to 1280x720p - so it is HiDef, but a Lite version. Oh, wait ....



Although some of their channels get down to 1024x1080 

Not to mention the overcompression to achieve the low bitrate (which is at least as awful as the down conversion) This is also why all the foolsfolks who insist the HD-resolution DiVX downloads from BitTorrent are comparable to OTA/Cable and justify using a media PC instead of a subscription to a HD broadcaster & a true HD DVR are wrong  It is also why iTunes and Amazon Unbox videos don't (yet_ compare in quality to same-resolution, but higher-bitrate-encoded digital video (even SD) on cable.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ashu said:


> True. I'm a 1080P proponent and even *I* don't discount 720P - it is SO vastly better than SD and current iTunes resolutions.
> 
> MickeS, that's too far a reach even for an Apple-bashernot-particularly-carer-for like me! (word form invention ftw!)


What is too far a reach? I didn't discount it. Of course 720p is hi-def. But AppleTV is not compatible with 1080p, which are used with for example blu-ray and hd-dvd.

It's all a Disney/Jobs/Apple conspiracy to get 720p more popular.


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