# Verizon penalizing TiVo / CableCard subscribers



## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

Verizon is currently offering a multi-room dvr free for life as part of its 2YR TV, Internet, and Phone package (Triple Play). The free set-top box amounts to a savings of $19.99 per month. If one chooses a cable card, instead of the multi-room dvr, there is a cost of $3.99 a month. This amounts to a $23.98 penalty for selecting a cable card for this package.

This is a violation of FCC CableCard rule:

"Pay only for equipment you have. Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)."

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/cablecard-know-your-rights

Verizon is appeasing CableCard users by automatically giving the alternative promotion, a $250 gift card. However, CableCard subscribers should have a choice between the discount or the gift card. The discount is obviously the wiser choice, as it is a long-term savings and surpasses the value of the gift card in the 11th month of the 24 month term (250/23.98=10.4).

If you have this package, you are considering it, or just don't think Verizon is playing fair with TiVo, file a complaint with the FCC at: https://esupport.fcc.gov/ccmsforms/f...orm_type=2000E


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Interesting. I'm not sure why they think that meets the requirements of the FCC rule. Sounds like they figure that it's a way to avoid configuring the appropriate discount in their system since (they hope) there won't be many people taking advantage of it anyway.


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## celtic pride (Nov 8, 2005)

I never thought about that when i got my gift card for $366.00 from verizon for a 2 year renewal, and recently i have seen them offer $500.00 gift cards here in southern california .


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

This promotion has been around for a while but I never thought getting something for free was a "penalty".

That being said, I think the loophole here is that Verizon doesn't technically include boxes as part of any service packages. You can either take the free DVR or the VISA as a bonus for signing up. They otherwise handle boxes as separate charges. So it's debatable if the FCC rule applies in this case.

This is opposed to actual bundling where a cableco would require you to take a DVR to get a digital package at a specific price, for example. That's the FCC's intent.

That being said, it wouldn't hurt them to offer a free cablecard in its place. But as far as the FCC rules go, I'm not so certain.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

Let's forgo the gift card for a second.

You're absolutely correct, getting something for free is not a penalty -- for those who do not use CableCards and opt to receive a multi-room dvr free for life as part of the Triple Play package. The penalty is to the TiVo / CableCard subscribers who get nothing, and in fact are charged an additional $3.99, for subscribing to the same Triple Play package.

* Non-CableCard subscriber is charged $99.99/mo for the Triple Play package and has the option to receive a set-top box free for life, a discounted value of $19.99/mo.

Triple Play package: $99.99
Multi-room DVR: $19.99
Sub-Total: 119.98 (real cost)
Multi-room DVR discount: $19.99
Total: $99.99 = Package and set-top box -- user receives free set-top box

* CableCard subscriber is charged $99.99/mo for the Triple Play package and supplies their own set-top box. They not only receive nothing, they are charged $3.99 for the CableCard they require for the package.

Triple Play package: $99.99
CableCard: $3.99
Total: $103.98 = Package and CableCard -- user receives nothing for having supplied their own set-top box

A non-CableCard subscriber receives the same service and a free set-top box for the same price as a CableCard subscriber who purchased their set-top box. The CableCard subscriber is penalized for having bought his or her set-top box. As I read it, the promotion violates the FCC regulation. 

"Pay only for equipment you have. Your operator must give you a discount on any packages that include the price of a set-top box if you choose to use your own CableCARD-enabled device. FCC Rule 76.1205(b)(5)."

Addressing the gift card, I agree that non-CableCard subscribers have the option with the Triple Play package to take the multi-room DVR free for life ($19.99/mo discount) or the $250 gift card. CableCard subscribers are forced to take the $250 gift card, without the option to accept the plan's optional discount -- the obviously better choice since it will surpass the value of the $250 gift card in about 12 months.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Aren't the people who are getting the free DVR for life getting penalized. They will be using the crappy FiOS DVR. If FiOS offered to give me free TV service and DVRs for life, but I would have to give up my TiVos, I would not even consider taking it. The FiOS DVrs, like typical cable companiy DVRs pale in comparison to a TiVo.

At one point I had eight cable cards with FiOS. Although at that time they were only $2.99 a card. I'm down to three cable cards with them now. I have no complaints though since my current two year contract I signed earlier this year is the lowest I've paid for FiOS service in the five years I've had them. Plus I have faster internet speeds and more TV programming.
For $110 a month(plus taxes and cable cards) I have Ultimate HD, 35/35 Internet, and Digital Voice. Plus I got a $327 gift card on top of all that when I signed up for two more years.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

jerryr001 said:


> You're absolutely correct, getting something for free is not a penalty -- for those who do not use CableCards and opt to receive a multi-room dvr free for life as part of the Triple Play package.


That's the thing, full stop. The DVR isn't "part" of the triple play package. They don't force it as a condition of the service package.

The first rule you list says they can charge you for a cablecard, they just can't charge you an _additional fee_ for using your own equipment. You may be zoning in on the second part of that and thinking you can get a free cablecard, but that would ignore the first part.

The second rule doesn't apply as the DVR is not a condition of the package. The package price is the same with or without it. But even if we assume it did apply, the cost would effectively be $0 since it's free. So your discount would be $0.

As I said, it wouldn't hurt them to offer a cablecard instead; it would be nice if they did. But it's not illegal for them to incentivize with free or discounted equipment, or other freebies. The keyword there being equipment, not the service package.

So, that's my case explaining why I don't think it applies. 

Edit: You kind of changed up your post a bit but I won't edit this one to match it, everything still applies.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> That's the thing, full stop. The DVR isn't "part" of the triple play package. They don't force it as a condition of the service package.
> 
> The first rule you list says they can charge you for a cablecard, they just can't charge you an _additional fee_ for using your own equipment. You may be zoning in on the second part of that and thinking you can get a free cablecard, but that would ignore the first part.
> 
> ...


That's my interpretation too. Their boxes aren't part of the triple-play package. Their box rentals are charged separately. And the FCC rule only applies to the service packages -- it basically prevents them from bundling in the equipment with the service package, which would force you to use their equipment in order to get the bundled savings.


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## jay_man2 (Sep 15, 2003)

I have FiOS and wouldn't take the DVR if they paid me to. Well, I might take it and store it in a closet.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

BigJimOutlaw -- Sorry for the mods while you were replying. I don't think I changed the theory I was defending, just trying to be more clear.

Understood, no subscriber is forced to accept a $19.99/mo discount via a multi-room DVR free for life, which is offered with the Triple Play package. Although, I don't think we're really talking about the people who have the option to go multi-room DVR free for life, gift card, or standard set-top box for a fee. We're talking about the people who don't have an option to accept a discount, because they've already laid out the cash for their own set-top box already. But, I will agree to disagree. 

Even if we disagree with the wording of the regulation, the issue I have is the violation of its intent. The intent of ALL the FCC CableCard regulations is to prevent the cable TV providers from creating a monopoly of the set-top box. Effectively cutting the third-party set-top manufactures out of the market, by charging CableCard subscribers fees or offering discounted or free set-top boxes that a CableCard subscriber is not afforded. For example, the cable TV providers being required to supply CableCards, so TiVo can supply an equal (in our case greater) experience on a TV provider's network; starter kits, so the cable provider can't hit you with a fee to perform a CableCard install; and, the regulation in question, insisting a CableCard subscriber receives the same discount a cable set-top box subscriber can get.

Each regulation is to ensure there is a level playing field between the cable providers and the third-party set-top manufactures. Giving a non-CableCard subscriber the option of a free set-top box, the equivalent of a $19.99/mo discount, which obviously is subsidized by something (the package), while the third-party set-top manufactures have no way to subsidize the device and CableCard subscribers are not afforded the same potential discount is not a level playing field between the cable TV providers and third-party set-top manufactures.

Essentially, Verizon is saying they can provide the service (TV and phone) for $80 (package - set-top discount: 99.99 - 19.99 = $80), while telling CableCard subscribers they have to pay $99.99 for service alone. Why would anyone buy TiVo costing $149 and up, plus monthly / life-time fee, if there is not benefit to bringing your own to your cable provider. This is exactly what the regulation is trying to prevent. Third-party set-top manufactures cannot possibly compete with that.


aaronwt -- LOL I agree! I stuck with the original Philips TiVo for years until TiVo created an HD box, because 1) it just looked so cool and 2) I couldn't give it up -- even for HD service via a Comcast box. To my point above, concerning the regulation, its not those of us who know TiVo and its awesomeness... its the people who don't know it as well and are trying to justify buying it. In the end, this hurts the third party set-top providers such as TiVo because FiOS is leveraging the plan to giveaway the set-top box.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

BobCamp1 said:


> That's my interpretation too. Their boxes aren't part of the triple-play package. Their box rentals are charged separately. And the FCC rule only applies to the service packages -- it basically prevents them from bundling in the equipment with the service package, which would force you to use their equipment in order to get the bundled savings.


I agree that a result of the regulation is that you are not forced to use a cable provider's equipment. However, I believe the intent of the regulation is slightly larger than that. I believe the regulation, like most regulations, is to prevent a monopoly. Basically protecting companies like TiVo, by not penalizing subscribers with extra fees for bringing their own set-top or allowing the cable providers to discount their own equipment making it not worth bringing your own set-top.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

The relevant rule is this one:

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2012/76/1205/


> ( 2 ) For any bundled offer combining service and an operator-supplied
> navigation device into a single fee, including any bundled offer
> providing a discount for the purchase of multiple services, such
> provider shall make such offer available without discrimination to any
> ...


For an offer like this "combining service and an operator-supplied navigation device into a single fee" the carrier is required to provide a discount to a customer who proves their own equipment "equal to an amount not less than the monthly rental fee reasonably allocable to the lease of the operator-supplied navigation device included with that offer."

The rule then explains how they determine what is "reasonably allocable". Free is not an option just because FiOs says that it's free.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I think you guys are missing the rationale behind the Verizon deal. If a customer has one of their boxes they have access to Pay-Per-View programming and special events. This is potential income for Verizon that can easily offset the cost of the set-top box. Subscribers that get cablecards do not get the same access to PPV and special programming so there's no incentive for Verizon to give away cablecards for free. The only revenue they'll get from cablecard users is the rental fee for the cards.

Verizon's in business to make money so don't expect them or anyone else to give you something for free when there's no chance they'll get a return on their investment. The whole idea that Verizon is penalizing cablecard users is pure BS so quit whining about it. Frankly, I think that anyone that has to use their DVR are the ones being penalized. I've got several cablecards for use in HTPCs. I don't pay Verizon for PPV nor do I have to pay Tivo to use their software. I already get DVR service for free.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I think you guys are missing the rationale behind the Verizon deal. If a customer has one of their boxes they have access to Pay-Per-View programming and special events. This is potential income for Verizon that can easily offset the cost of the set-top box. Subscribers that get cablecards do not get the same access to PPV and special programming so there's no incentive for Verizon to give away cablecards for free. The only revenue they'll get from cablecard users is the rental fee for the cards.
> 
> Verizon's in business to make money so don't expect them or anyone else to give you something for free when there's no chance they'll get a return on their investment. The whole idea that Verizon is penalizing cablecard users is pure BS so quit whining about it. Frankly, I think that anyone that has to use their DVR are the ones being penalized. I've got several cablecards for use in HTPCs. I don't pay Verizon for PPV nor do I have to pay Tivo to use their software. I already get DVR service for free.


Then they need to offer VOD on devices like the Xbox 360 like Comcast is doing. Then I would consider using FiOS VOD. Instead of them offering linear IP channels on the 360 which makes zero sense because you have to watch the channels live in realtime.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

nrc said:


> The relevant rule is this one:
> 
> http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2012/76/1205/
> 
> ...


Thanks, nrc. I had been looking for the actual text of the regulation. This confirms my understanding of the regulation.

"For any bundled offer combining service and an operator-supplied navigation device into a single fee, INCLUDING ANY BUNDLED OFFER PROVIDING A DISCOUNT FOR THE PURCHASE OF MULTIPLE SERVICES [...]"

If you bundle TV, Phone, and Internet service you receive the discount of a multi-room DVR.

"[...] shall further offer such customer [CardCard subscriber] a discount from such offer equal to an AMOUNT NOT LESS than the monthly rental fee reasonably allocable to the lease of the operator-supplied navigation device [...]"

The CableCard subscriber's device has to be equal, not less, than the equipment the cable provider is supplying the discount of.

It is written to ensure someone is not benefiting from using cable provided equipment or that a CableCard subscriber is not getting over on the cable provider (as if that's possible) -- leveling the playing field between the cable provider and third-party set-top manufactures.

It makes sense that the CableCard subscriber would have to prove they are using a device equal to the amount of the discount, not less. Otherwise one could go get a cheap device -- the third-party set-top manufactures lose the sale of a comparable device and the subscriber reaps a discount on the back of Verizon.

It also makes sense that the CableCard subscriber is entitled to the actual value of the device they are using, amortized over 60 months. Since the cable provider would, in theory, need to supply new devices by this time, creating an additional cost to them.

This ensures one can can chose the cable providers device or pay for an equal third-party device and receive similar discounts / pay comparable rates.

Luckily, I have a four tuner premier, so there is no question about the device comparison and cost. That all being said, I cant imagine what a pain it's going to be discussing this with a Verizon rep.

Thoughts of the 'Verizon Math Fail' video come to mind: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN9LZ3ojnxY[/media]


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> I think you guys are missing the rationale behind the Verizon deal.  If a customer has one of their boxes they have access to Pay-Per-View programming and special events. This is potential income for Verizon that can easily offset the cost of the set-top box. Subscribers that get cablecards do not get the same access to PPV and special programming so there's no incentive for Verizon to give away cablecards for free. The only revenue they'll get from cablecard users is the rental fee for the cards.
> 
> Verizon's in business to make money so don't expect them or anyone else to give you something for free when there's no chance they'll get a return on their investment. The whole idea that Verizon is penalizing cablecard users is pure BS so quit whining about it. Frankly, I think that anyone that has to use their DVR are the ones being penalized. I've got several cablecards for use in HTPCs. I don't pay Verizon for PPV nor do I have to pay Tivo to use their software. I already get DVR service for free.


Of course Verizon's rationale is get subcribers to use their set-top box, so they can make more money with VOD; have access to your viewing habits; etc. That is not the debate. The debate is that Verizon is leveraging its services to give a discount on its set-top, making it difficult or near impossible for a company like TiVo to compete.

TiVo Subscriber (monthly):
TiVo Premiere DVR: $149.99 (2.50/mo: assuming 60mo amortization of the device as provided by the regulation)
TiVo monthly Service Fee: $14.99
VZ Triple Play: $99.99
VZ CableCard: $3.99
--------------------------
Ongoing Cost: $121.47

TiVo Subscriber (life-time):
TiVo Premiere DVR: $149.99 (2.50/mo: assuming 60mo amortization of the device as provided by the regulation)
TiVo Lifetime Service Fee: $499.99 (8.33/mo: assuming 60mo amortization of the service as provided by the regulation)
VZ Triple Play: $99.99
VZ CableCard: $3.99
--------------------------
Ongoing Cost: $114.81

VZ Multi-room DVR Subscriber:
Multi-room DVR: $0
DVR Monthly Service Fee: $19.99
DVR Monthly Service Discount: -$19.99
VZ Triple Play: $99.99
--------------------------
Ongoing Cost: $99.99 (worth $119.98)

The fact that Verizon has VOD and it's not accessible using third-party devices is actually a supporting factor of the debate. It's an incentive to use the cable provider set-top, especially when they advertise 'all' the free VOD you get. I would not doubt that within the next year or two they force cable providers to provide two-way CableCards to access VOD. No different then when they forced cable providers to supply m-cards, so that we could access multiple streams.

It really is not a matter of whining about the cost. Its a matter of there being regulations in place to protect TiVo, to enable it to be competitive and ensure we as consumers have options. You should be concerned the un-knowledgeable subscribers are taking the cable provided device, because of discounts. Every additional subscriber who does so increases the potential demise of TiVo.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> That's the thing, full stop. The DVR isn't "part" of the triple play package. They don't force it as a condition of the service package.


After reading the regulation, in fact the cost of renting the device HAS to be spelled out separately to qualify.



> For purposes of this section, in determining what is "reasonably allocable," the Commission will consider in its evaluation whether the allocation is consistent with one or more of the following factors:
> 
> ( ii ) The monthly lease fee as stated on the cable system rate card
> for the navigation device when offered by the cable operator separately
> from a bundled offer; and


Normalizing: To be acceptable, a cable provided device must have a published monthly fee when separated from the particular bundle it is offered with at a discount.

If there is not an associated cost for the device, separate from a particular package, its just free all around. In this case, Verizon for all intent and purpose never has a gain by linking the device to a particular package.

This is not the case here. If one chooses the double-play, instead of the Triple play, there is a $19.99/mo cost associated with the multi-room DVR.

I believe what this its trying to prevent is a monthly incentive for non-CableCard users to go a particular bundle and no incentive for CableCard users.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

Stepping back for a minute and asking for a ruling from the judges...

As a FiOS customer I'm always reading the FiOS threads, isn't it the case that Verizion's FiOS implementation and business model do NOT fall under FCC Cable TV regulations? 

I can swear this has come up multiple times in the past 5 years. Verizon does tend to follow the rulings under the impression they may be applied in the future, but I recall them not having to implement. Customer Supplied hardware is the latest I'm thinking of, Verizon does not give that credit.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jerryr001 said:


> Of course Verizon's rationale is get subcribers to use their set-top box, so they can make more money with VOD; have access to your viewing habits; etc. That is not the debate. The debate is that Verizon is leveraging its services to give a discount on its set-top, making it difficult or near impossible for a company like TiVo to compete.
> 
> TiVo Subscriber (monthly):
> TiVo Premiere DVR: $149.99 (2.50/mo: assuming 60mo amortization of the device as provided by the regulation)
> ...


The TiVo cost is much lower than you show, at least for lifetime service. Since you own the box and it has a high resale value with lifetime which allows you to recoup most of the cost. Which brings it much closer to the cost you show for the Verizon DVR. Of course this doesn't take into account the crappy user experience you get from the FiOS DVR. Having access to FiOS VOD certainly doesn't come anywhere close to negating that bad experience.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> The TiVo cost is much lower than you show, at least for lifetime service. Since you own the box and it has a high resale value with lifetime which allows you to recoup most of the cost. Which brings it much closer to the cost you show for the Verizon DVR. Of course this doesn't take into account the crappy user experience you get from the FiOS DVR. Having access to FiOS VOD certainly doesn't come anywhere close to negating that bad experience.


I took the most current numbers right from the TiVo site. That being said, a user would only be entailed to what they actually paid amortized over 60 months, starting from the time of the purchase -- as described below.

For the device, I took the cheapest and comparable TiVo to the multi-room DVR being offered (new; HD; multi-room capable), as required by the regulation. That information can be found here: https://www3.tivo.com/store/home.do?WT.ac=tivohome_mantle_store

Current pricing for the service can be found here: https://www3.tivo.com/store/premiere.do?WT.z_success=buy_cta

Your point about the TiVo, or any third-party device, being better and having some continued value is taken into account in the regulation. While a Verizon multi-room DVR subscriber gets it free for life (a $20/mo discount according to Verizon), CableCard subscribers, with a similar device, can only make claim to the discount amortized over 60 months. The subscriber would then need to buy a new device to continue to make a claim for the discount.

To say you get a better experience with TiVo, it continues to have value, and you don't want the 'crappy' FiOS box is irreverent to the purpose of the regulation. The purpose is to prevent a set-top monopoly by the TV providers, who can use their service packages to off-set the cost of the set-top, while TiVo does not have that luxury. Meaning, if Verizon offers a discount on equipment for selecting a more expensive package, you are entailed to the same discount for buying a comparable (or better) third-party device and selecting that same package.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> Stepping back for a minute and asking for a ruling from the judges...
> 
> As a FiOS customer I'm always reading the FiOS threads, isn't it the case that Verizion's FiOS implementation and business model do NOT fall under FCC Cable TV regulations?


You may be thinking about the copper land land regulations. Back when, the government subsidized Ma Bell to bring copper lines to everyone. As such, Ma Bell, and then the 'baby bells', were forced to share the infrastructure. Verizon made the case that if they were to build out all new infrastructure (fiber), on their dollar, they shouldn't have to share it. The government agreed, if they took it all the way to the door. This is why Verizon chose to install all the way to the door and then disconnects your copper lines.

So the sharing of the infrastructure is what is no longer regulated on an all fiber network.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

jerryr001 said:


> You may be thinking about the copper land land regulations. Back when, the government subsidized Ma Bell to bring copper lines to everyone. As such, Ma Bell, and then the 'baby bells', were forced to share the infrastructure. Verizon made the case that if they were to build out all new infrastructure (fiber), on their dollar, they shouldn't have to share it. The government agreed, if they took it all the way to the door. This is why Verizon chose to install all the way to the door and then disconnects your copper lines.
> 
> So the sharing of the infrastructure is what is no longer regulated on an all fiber network.


No, that's not at all what I was saying or thinking.
In many discussions on TCF over the years it's been brought up that FCC Cable company regulations do not apply to Verizon FiOS.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> No, that's not at all what I was saying or thinking.
> In many discussions on TCF over the years it's been brought up that FCC Cable company regulations do not apply to Verizon FiOS.


I don't see why they wouldn't apply to FIOS. Many digital cable providers use a fiber optic backbone to distribute their signal, same as FIOS. The only difference is that FIOS brings the fiber optic right into the house where other providers split out the signal at the street and connect to the house via coax.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't see why they wouldn't apply to FIOS. Many digital cable providers use a fiber optic backbone to distribute their signal, same as FIOS. The only difference is that FIOS brings the fiber optic right into the house where other providers split out the signal at the street and connect to the house via coax.


I agree with that statement. U-verse isn't covered because it's IPTV, not because it's fiber.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> No, that's not at all what I was saying or thinking.
> In many discussions on TCF over the years it's been brought up that FCC Cable company regulations do not apply to Verizon FiOS.


When Verizon started rolling out FiOS, I recall Verizon claiming they shouldn't fall under the cable company regulations, because they are a utility or something like that.

On the other side of it... in Philadelphia, Comcast withheld from Verizon the Philadelphia Comcast Sportsnet channel, which holds the home game rights for all Philadelphia sports. Verizon obviously needing it to woo Philadelphia customers complained to the FCC. Comcast's stance is that they only had to share it with other 'cable providers'. The context was much more complicated than that, but that was the gist of the argument.

So, Verizon was playing both side of the fence and it didn't work. They are subjected to the cable TV regulations. Or, as I have heard it called during the Comcast, Verizon Comcast Sportnet feud... TV wire-line providers.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

Verizon is subject to CableCARD rules.

CableCARD rules cover all "Multichannel Video Programming Distributors" except those who are explicitly excluded or waived. FiOS was specifically classed as an MVPD. AT&T has claimed that U-Verse is excluded because their IPTV service does not meet the definition of an MVPD.

Interestingly, there's a RFC underway from the FCC right now where they're seeking comment on whether things like IPTV and OTT services constitute MVPDs.

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/proceeding/view.action?z=jhz04&name=12-83

Interestingly, all the Cable organizations are lining up behind the interpretation that IPTV should not be covered under rules for MVPDs. That seems odd initially given that IPTV is their competition right now. But it tells us that the large cable companies are hatching a plot to escape all the current cable regulations if they can get IPTV formally excluded.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

jerryr001 said:


> This is not the case here. If one chooses the double-play, instead of the Triple play, there is a $19.99/mo cost associated with the multi-room DVR.


If you have double-play Internet-TV service, then Verizon waives the DVR fee if you also add the phone to make a triple-play package. But then you pay more for the package, so are you saving anything?

Actually, Verizon is changing their offers all the time. Currently new customers in my area just get multiple credits for singing a two year contract -- they've stopped the free DVR offer for now.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

Some said that the Verizon triple play package doesnt include a set top box and that is billed seperately. Since they are giving you a free DVR you dont have to pay the fee for the set top box needed to receive the package. So they are offering more than they give Tivo owners. Not only dont they have to pay the DVR rental fee they dont have to pay the set top box rental fee. In that case then they should be giving the cable cards for free also.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

nrc said:


> Interestingly, there's a RFC underway from the FCC right now where they're seeking comment on whether things like IPTV and OTT services constitute MVPDs.
> 
> http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/proceeding/view.action?z=jhz04&name=12-83


So this isn't the sort of thing that Joe Schmoe Public can comment on, right? (Doesn't seem like it from what's at that URL.)

I definitely think they (and the satellite companies) should be treated the same way. I realize that *won't* make them magically work with a cablecard, but could help for the future.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

mattack said:


> So this isn't the sort of thing that Joe Schmoe Public can comment on, right? (Doesn't seem like it from what's at that URL.)
> 
> I definitely think they (and the satellite companies) should be treated the same way. I realize that *won't* make them magically work with a cablecard, but could help for the future.


Yes, anyone can comment. Myself and others from the forum have filed comments on past proceedings. Comment form is here:

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/upload/display.action?z=c147m

Enter the proceeding as "12-83".

One approach might be to read the Public Knowledge filing which supports the position that the	term "Multichannel Video Programming Distributor" encompasses all platforms that make available prescheduled "Video Programming" and make a comment expressing support for their position.

Satellite companies are already considered MVPDs. They were specifically exempted from CableCARD regulation because they were an emerging technology and promised to provide national competition for the cable industry.

If the Allvid initiative ever goes anywhere satellite companies would probably not be exempted.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

I received a call from Verizon, today. I was told they are in receipt of my complaint to the FCC, concerning the discount for using a self supplied DVR on the triple play plan that includes a free DVR. Someone from the sales department will be following-up with me within the next 2-4 businesses days. I will provide an update when I hear from them.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Looking forward to hearing what they have to say.


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## SNJpage1 (May 25, 2006)

Besides the discount go for some free things because of the trouble you went thru with their way of pricing. They will give away a lot to get rid of the complaint.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Just as an FYI, Comcast has been offering a free HD DVR with double/triple play promo for years now. In fact, I'm on that one now but I never picked it up since I have Tivos and WMC. However, they do offer a $2.50 a month credit for using a Cablecard.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Just as an FYI, Comcast has been offering a free HD DVR with double/triple play promo for years now. In fact, I'm on that one now but I never picked it up since I have Tivos and WMC. However, they do offer a $2.50 a month credit for using a Cablecard.


Yes, I had Comcast previously. They gave us two free CableCards, since they offered two free digital set-tops with the plan. This seems to be holding to the CableCard regulation -- without even verifying you have an comparable, eligible device. Then again, it'd be difficult to not have a comparable or better basic digital tuner.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The HD DVR is worth $17/mo., so I'm not seeing the diff with Verizon except that they give you a monthly card credit of $2.50 on Comcast and Verizon gives you $250 up front.

So, if you had one card instead of a Comcast DVR, you'd get service for $2.50 cheaper. But if you had their DVR, you're saving a net of $14.50 vs. getting a card. Either way I agree, Tivo is getting screwed comparatively speaking.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

So, I was called by a Verizon executive resolution specialist (or something like that).

She asked that I explain my complaint. I did so and she accurately replied with her understanding of what I was saying; that I believe I am entitled to a discount based on the fact that I selected a plan that provides a device for free and I was bringing my own. She then said, Verizon does not offer discounts for people who bring their own device. I agreed and said, that's basically the issue.

She then asked about the regulation (she obviously knew nothing about it) and why I thought I was entitled to a discount for life. I explained that I was not entitled to a discount for life, the regulation states I am eligible for a 60mo discount, because obviously at some point Verizon would need to replace/upgrade its devices at a cost, as would I. I also explained that if a subscriber brought their own set-top and a subscriber who rented their set-top from Verizon went from the Double Play package to the Triple Play, the subscriber renting their set-top would get it for free... what would I get for upgrading? Again, she said she understood my complaint, but Verizon didn't offer discounts for subscribers who bring their own device. At this point, she said she would have to refer me back to the FCC customer service.

Again, I told her I understood they didn't offer the discount and that is the root of the complaint. I also told her I could send her the regulation. She asked for the regulation number (76.1205) and then the title "CableCARD support". No sooner than I got the word support out of my mouth, she asked, "Did you say cable? Verizon is not a cable company." I said you are covered under this regulation, to which she asked, "Does it say Verizon?" I said no. She said she would have to refer me back to the FCC, because Verizon was not a cable company. She said FCC customer service would follow-up with me.

At first I was just plain irritated at her lack of knowledge and readily throwing me back to the FCC. But now I'm starting to think that 'FCC Customer Service' is actually a department in Verizon, who knows the regulations and called me the first time.

Waiting...


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

It's still a much better deal on FiOS than Comcast. Even with no credit from verizon and the $4 cable card fee, it still costs less to have a TiVo on FiOS than on Comcast because of the digital outlet fee that Comcast charges.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

aaronwt said:


> It's still a much better deal on FiOS than Comcast. Even with no credit from verizon and the $4 cable card fee, it still costs less to have a TiVo on FiOS than on Comcast because of the digital outlet fee that Comcast charges.


Hmm.. I didn't remember a digital outlet fee. I just looked at last months bill (still waiting for our Verizon to be installed) and this is what I have:

Double Play $89.99
Bundle Includes:
Digital Starter w/On Demand
High Speed Internet Service

Digital Cable $9.25
Digital Starter with OnDEMAND

Cable Card 2 @$0.00 each

Looks like the $9.25 appeared recently. We have two TiVos with one CableCard for each and get full HD. I just called Comcast and inquired about the $9.25 and the rep said one cable box comes with the bundle and the $9.25 is for the second box. I told him I didn't have any cable boxes, I only have the two CableCards that are listed. Without further question, he said he'd remove the $9.25 from the bill.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

jerryr001 said:


> Hmm.. I didn't remember a digital outlet fee. I just looked at last months bill (still waiting for our Verizon to be installed) and this is what I have:
> 
> Double Play $89.99
> Bundle Includes:
> ...


There is a thread around here talking about the digital outlet fee for each STB you have connected. It might differ by area but it seems to be pretty widespread. When I had Comcast five years ago they had an outlet fee around here and they tried to charge me for several of them for each TiVo I had. But somehow I convinced them that I only had one Comcast outlet and I split the cable myself, so they only charged me for one outlet instead of several.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

A neighbor told me he was reading posts on Verizon's forum, where Verizon reps were responding. So, last night I posted the below, non-threatening, simply inquisitive message. This morning it was gone. I re-posted today and it was deleted in under an hour.

http://forums.verizon.com/t5/Off-To...-and-multi-room-DVR-free-for-life/td-p/447183

Verizon is offering the choice of a free DVR for life or a $250 gift card with its Triple Play package. However, it is not allowing CableCard Subscribers who bring their own DVR (TiVo) to chose between the gift card or the long term discount. This appears to be in violation of FCC rule 76.1205(b)(5). How is Verizon getting around this regulation?

FCC 76.1205(b)(5)
For any bundled offer combining service and an operator-supplied navigation device into a single fee, including any bundled offer providing a discount for the purchase of multiple services, such provider shall make such offer available without discrimination to any customer that owns a navigation device, and, to the extent the customer uses such navigation device in lieu of the operator-supplied equipment included in that bundled offer, shall further offer such customer a discount from such offer equal to an amount not less than the monthly rental fee reasonably allocable to the lease of the operator-supplied navigation device included with that offer. For purposes of this section, in determining what is ''reasonably allocable,'' the Commission will consider in its evaluation whether the allocation is consistent with one or more of the following factors:

(i) An allocation determination approved by a local, state, or Federal government entity;
(ii) The monthly lease fee as stated on the cable system rate card for the navigation device when offered by the cable operator separately from a bundled offer; and
(iii) The actual cost of the navigation device amortized over a period of no more than 60 months.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

jerryr001 said:


> Verizon is currently offering a multi-room dvr free for life as part of its 2YR TV, Internet, and Phone package (Triple Play). The free set-top box amounts to a savings of $19.99 per month. If one chooses a cable card, instead of the multi-room dvr, there is a cost of $3.99 a month. This amounts to a $23.98 penalty for selecting a cable card for this package.
> 
> This is a violation of FCC CableCard rule:
> 
> ...


You can take the $250 gift card and pay your cable card fees for well over 2 years.

So what is the problem, exactly?

It's not a 19.99 discount. It's a free cable box. The equivalent for you, would be a free cable card. That's worse than the $250 gift card.

Don't complain.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

It's a rule violation, depending on how you want to look at it.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> It's a rule violation, depending on how you want to look at it.


I don't think there are any way you can look at it that turns it into a rules violation.

Like, if you push the issue, then the rules violation means they have to offer you a free cable box OR a free cable card OR $250.

And of those three, no one is taking the free cable card.

So, you know, what's the point of it being there? Everyone who would take the CC, is going to take the $250.

I mean, again, it's not a $20/month credit. It's a free cable box.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The rule violation, IMO, is that the $250 GC does not equate to the rental cost of the box according to the FCC's specific rules about the discount. That's jerry's point, and it's valid.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I don't even see how it could be anywhere close considered to a violation. When I renewed my two year contract earlier this year. I had the option to get a free DVR for life or a $300 giftcard. There was no package that forced me to get a DVR. If that were the situation then they would be required to give a credit. But there is no package they offer(at least back then) that had a DVR with it. There was only an option to get the DVR with the bundle. Not a bundle that included the DVR as part of it.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

Grakthis said:


> I don't think there are any way you can look at it that turns it into a rules violation.
> 
> Like, if you push the issue, then the rules violation means they have to offer you a free cable box OR a free cable card OR $250.
> 
> ...


You've misread the rule. If the box is included with the bundle, and is normally valued at $20 / month, then Verizon would have to take $20 off your monthly bill if you used a Tivo. They'll still charge the Cablecard, but you'll still net a discount of $15/month.

One way around the rule is to simply not bundle the free box with the service, but to charge separately for it then offer a credit with a two-year contract with an ETF as a separate promotion. Then the box really isn't free, it actually costs $10/month if the ETF is $240.


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## Grakthis (Oct 4, 2006)

BobCamp1 said:


> You've misread the rule. If the box is included with the bundle, and is normally valued at $20 / month, then Verizon would have to take $20 off your monthly bill if you used a Tivo. They'll still charge the Cablecard, but you'll still net a discount of $15/month.
> 
> One way around the rule is to simply not bundle the free box with the service, but to charge separately for it then offer a credit with a two-year contract with an ETF as a separate promotion. Then the box really isn't free, it actually costs $10/month if the ETF is $240.


Ah, it seems you are correct. My understanding was that if they gave you a box, they had to be willing to give you a cable card instead. But you're right, it explicitly lists the value of the box, not just a same-for-same deal.

So, for example, he should be able to take the STB option then demand the monthly discount for providing his own box then pay the cable card fee and end up with a discount of $15 a month.

Assuming the deal is worded that way, of course.


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## jerryr001 (Jul 4, 2003)

I finally received a follow-up call from Verizon. It was a very short and sweet call. They simply said, we are waiving the fee for both of your CableCards. There was no mention of my complaint. So, I'm not sure if they got it from my post to the Verizon discussion board or my complaint to the FCC that the original rep insisted didn't cover them.

Despite my belief that the rule requires them to discount the package the cost of the free set-top box, I graciously accepted... and I'm running.


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

jerryr001 said:


> I finally received a follow-up call from Verizon. It was a very short and sweet call. They simply said, we are waiving the fee for both of your CableCards. There was no mention of my complaint. So, I'm not sure if they got it from my post to the Verizon discussion board or my complaint to the FCC that the original rep insisted didn't cover them.
> 
> Despite my belief that the rule requires them to discount the package the cost of the free set-top box, I graciously accepted... and I'm running.


* jerryr001*, was there a specific number, department or person you spoke to? I just learned of the FCC regulations through the latest Tivo advisors' survey which alerted me to the matter.

I have a first generation Series3 HD TiVo which requires 2 Cablecards for dual tuner capability. I have called Verizon multiple times trying to get them not to charge me for a second Cablecard because it is not for a second device but a necessity due to older tech on the Series3 Tivo. However, I have been told it is there policy to charge per Cablecard regardless of what devices the cards are attached to. This pissed me off because I recently switched from Cablevision, which charges only $2 per card while FiOS charges twice that, $4 per card.

I'm thinking I can use this FCC regulation to my advantage now and leverage them for the additional discount.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

headless chicken said:


> * jerryr001*, was there a specific number, department or person you spoke to? I just learned of the FCC regulations through the latest Tivo advisors' survey which alerted me to the matter.
> 
> I have a first generation Series3 HD TiVo which requires 2 Cablecards for dual tuner capability. I have called Verizon multiple times trying to get them not to charge me for a second Cablecard because it is not for a second device but a necessity due to older tech on the Series3 Tivo. However, I have been told it is there policy to charge per Cablecard regardless of what devices the cards are attached to. This pissed me off because I recently switched from Cablevision, which charges only $2 per card while FiOS charges twice that, $4 per card.
> 
> I'm thinking I can use this FCC regulation to my advantage now and leverage them for the additional discount.


FiOS has never charged per device, they have always charged per cable card. When I had three Series 3 boxes I paid FiOS for six cable cards for those three boxes. When those were switched out to single cable card TiVos, I paid for fewer cable cards.

If you can get them to waive the fee that is great. I only wish they would have done it years ago when I had those three OLED S3 boxes along with several TiVoHD boxes.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

aaronwt said:


> FiOS has never charged per device, they have always charged per cable card. When I had three Series 3 boxes I paid FiOS for six cable cards for those three boxes. When those were switched out to single cable card TiVos, I paid for fewer cable cards.


I was coming in to the thread to say the same thing, Verizon has never used the "per device" phrasing on CableCARDs, it's always been priced per card.


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

dianebrat said:


> I was coming in to the thread to say the same thing, Verizon has never used the "per device" phrasing on CableCARDs, it's always been priced per card.


I explained the situation and was offered a credit to cover the cost of the second CableCard. However, it did take a number of calls before a got a kind rep who was willing to work with me. YMMV.


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## humm (Nov 29, 2011)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> This promotion has been around for a while but I never thought getting something for free was a "penalty".
> 
> That being said, I think the loophole here is that Verizon doesn't technically include boxes as part of any service packages. You can either take the free DVR or the VISA as a bonus for signing up. They otherwise handle boxes as separate charges. So it's debatable if the FCC rule applies in this case.
> 
> ...


I took the visa when I recently re-upped. It seems like I got a very good deal. My POV is that using the Tivo instead of the motorola boxes is worth a little pain.


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## Tivoitis (Sep 12, 2005)

Anyone try using their own M-Card ($8-$10 on eBay) to avoid the monthly cablecard fee?


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Tivoitis said:


> Anyone try using their own M-Card ($8-$10 on eBay) to avoid the monthly cablecard fee?


Yep some have tried. They won't work. In a nutshell, it has to come from the cableco.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Tivoitis said:


> Anyone try using their own M-Card ($8-$10 on eBay) to avoid the monthly cablecard fee?


That's part of the reason cable cards need pairing or people could just purchase them off E-Bay, order basic cable service and get all the channels. The MSO had this problem with the old analog cable boxes and could never stop this thief-of-service until the digital service came out, cable thief is very low now, some people share cable with their neighbors to cut cost, but both are committing a crime.


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

Are Verizon CableCARDs really going up to $5.99/mo ea.?

That is the price now listed on the Verizon website:
http://www22.verizon.com/home/fiostv/#equipment


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

If that's true they need to give up all pretense that this is a rental fee to cover the cost of the card, and admit to the FCC that they are charging an outlet fee just like Comcast does.


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

That's outrageous. Verizon already charges double the price of Cablevision's card and their new price will be triple that. Absolute price gouging.


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## Thos19 (Dec 31, 2002)

Wow. When I was with Comcast, it was $1.50/mo for the first one and the second one was free for my S3 OLED. At $5.99/mo, you've already paid for a new M-Card after 6 months !

Thos.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

Thos19 said:


> Wow. When I was with Comcast, it was $1.50/mo for the first one and the second one was free for my S3 OLED. At $5.99/mo, you've already paid for a new M-Card after 6 months !
> 
> Thos.


Actually, it's supposed to be the other way around. According to their rate sheet, no charge for the first card in a device. $1.50/mo for the second card _in the same device_.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

CoxInPHX said:


> Are Verizon CableCARDs really going up to $5.99/mo ea.?


http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27864585-CableCard-price-going-up-


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## CoxInPHX (Jan 14, 2011)

wmcbrine said:


> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27864585-CableCard-price-going-up-


That link does not provide any definitive answers just speculation, Is the $5.99 a typo? or has anyone seen their pricing increase?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

CoxInPHX said:


> That link does not provide any definitive answers just speculation, Is the $5.99 a typo? or has anyone seen their pricing increase?


If it is like the change from $2.99 to $3.99, it will only affect people if they sign up now or when you change your package and renew your contract.


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## TerpBE (Jan 23, 2003)

I had 3 Cablecards with Fios, but I was only using 2 of them, so I shipped one back.

When they received the one I sent back, instead of removing a Cablecard from my account, they ADDED one. So I have 2 Cablecards, but they're charging me for 4. I've been trying to get this straightened out since August, and they still haven't fixed it.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Thos19 said:


> Wow. When I was with Comcast, it was $1.50/mo for the first one and the second one was free for my S3 OLED. At $5.99/mo, you've already paid for a new M-Card after 6 months !
> 
> Thos.


When I was with Comcast I had six cable cards for my three S3(OLED) boxes. But they charged me zero for all six cards. It was a shock when I went to FiOS and I got charged $2.99 per card. And then they went to $3.99 a card. 
I hope the cable card price doesn't go up to $5.99 for existing users. IF so I really need a six tuner TiVo and the Mini to be released soon. Then I can drop down to one cable card. When the mini gets released at least I can go down form three to two cable cards.


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## Tivoitis (Sep 12, 2005)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> Yep some have tried. They won't work. In a nutshell, it has to come from the cableco.


So I wound up buying two and trying myself. I got various answers from Verizon tech support: some saying it was possible and asking me for all the cablecard info, and then trying to enter it into the Verizon systems, while others claimed I had to have specially made Verizon cablecards or that it simply wasn't possible to use outside cablecards. After several hours, it was apparent that it wasn't working. I tried again a couple of days later, and this time while I was waiting for a tech, the TiVo tuned in one the local channels. It's a limited set, but it is all the local channels, so I'm satisfied enough to return one of my Verizon cards. I had two Verizon m-cards driving my two THD's, and just bought a new Tivo Premiere 4, so now I'll keep one Verizon m-card to drive my Tivo Premiere 4, and run my two THD's with the eBay sourced m-cards.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Tivoitis said:


> So I wound up buying two and trying myself. I got various answers from Verizon tech support: some saying it was possible and asking me for all the cablecard info, and then trying to enter it into the Verizon systems, while others claimed I had to have specially made Verizon cablecards or that it simply wasn't possible to use outside cablecards. After several hours, it was apparent that it wasn't working. I tried again a couple of days later, and this time while I was waiting for a tech, the TiVo tuned in one the local channels. It's a limited set, but it is all the local channels, so I'm satisfied enough to return one of my Verizon cards. I had two Verizon m-cards driving my two THD's, and just bought a new Tivo Premiere 4, so now I'll keep one Verizon m-card to drive my Tivo Premiere 4, and run my two THD's with the eBay sourced m-cards.


Those stations are broadcast Clear QAM and the only thing your CableCard is doing is mapping the actual channel numbers of the signals to the virtual channel numbers that Verizon uses. If you were to pull the CableCard and have only the coax running to you box and run a manual channel scan, you'd find the same channels you get with the CableCard plugged in, they would just be on random station numbers. However, channels located via the manual scan would not be associated with the guide data.

If you're happy with the clear QAM channels only, those CableCards will be a nice savings over the monthly fee.


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## Tivoitis (Sep 12, 2005)

tatergator1 said:


> Those stations are broadcast Clear QAM and the only thing your CableCard is doing is mapping the actual channel numbers of the signals to the virtual channel numbers that Verizon uses. If you were to pull the CableCard and have only the coax running to you box and run a manual channel scan, you'd find the same channels you get with the CableCard plugged in, they would just be on random station numbers. However, channels located via the manual scan would not be associated with the guide data.
> 
> If you're happy with the clear QAM channels only, those CableCards will be a nice savings over the monthly fee.


Ahhh ... good to know, thanks! I'm just glad that my purchases won't go to waste.


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## satyenshah (Feb 6, 2013)

Time Warner is pulling the same nonsense as Verizon. If you are receiving a promotion that includes a cable-box, then your effective rate will increase if you return to a box and switch to the CableCard.

Time Warner's argument is that the "bundled offers" regulated by the FCC apply to "packages" but not limited period "package promotions". So, if the cable company offers you a promotion lasting 2-years that includes a cable-box, then that is not a "bundled offer" so your rights to switch to a cablecard don't apply.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Tivoitis said:


> So I wound up buying two and trying myself.
> ...
> It's a limited set, but it is all the local channels, so I'm satisfied enough to return one of my Verizon cards.





tatergator1 said:


> Those stations are broadcast Clear QAM and the only thing your CableCard is doing is mapping the actual channel numbers of the signals to the virtual channel numbers that Verizon uses. If you were to pull the CableCard and have only the coax running to you box and run a manual channel scan, you'd find the same channels you get with the CableCard plugged in, they would just be on random station numbers. However, channels located via the manual scan would not be associated with the guide data.
> 
> If you're happy with the clear QAM channels only, those CableCards will be a nice savings over the monthly fee.


This is *exactly* what I'm wanting.. is to just get the channel map data for the 5 free broadcast channels (nbc, cbs, abc, pbs, fox) .. I'm on Knology but someone pointed me to this thread.

I'm more than happy to purchase some CC's on ebay just to get the above-mentioned 5 channel map data on my S3HD. Question is, is that really all there is to it? Do I need to make sure and buy a particular brand or model number? Several years ago all I needed to do on my S3OLED and my dad's S3HD was to go say, "use digital lineup, get cablecards later," and I could get those 5 channels immediately.. For some reason the same trick does not work now, 2 yrs later, on another S3HD. I don't know why. The S3OLED and other S3HD both still tune those channels just fine.

I have a theory that there may be stale channel map info from the previous owner that I cannot seem to wipe even when re-running guided setup on my newer S3HD.. but that's just a wild guess..

..dane


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

satyenshah said:


> Time Warner's argument is that the "bundled offers" regulated by the FCC apply to "packages" but not limited period "package promotions". So, if the cable company offers you a promotion lasting 2-years that includes a cable-box, then that is not a "bundled offer" so your rights to switch to a cablecard don't apply.


And I thought the Comcast position was BS. Have you challenged with the FCC?


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

audiodane said:


> Do I need to make sure and buy a particular brand or model number?


You need whatever brand your cable company uses.. i.e. Motorola or the other one.. AFAIK, other than that, they're all the same technology wise.. (but each cable company has the IDs of "theirs", which is why you can't get them registered for premium channels for example).

I bought a used Tivo (for parts), and it had cable cards in it.. Now I've ended up mixing at least one of those in with the ones I'm paying for, I think. My Tivo HD was getting the 'expanded basic' up until recently (a week or so ago), but now e.g. Comedy Central is a black screen. I haven't switched cable cards in a few weeks. so I wonder if I have one of the 'wrong' ones in there that was finally eventually locked out.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I have a feeling that on Comcast you'd get stuck on the 'Acquiring Channels' swirl screen if the card is not authorized. I've seen this before on multiple Tivos, so I'm not sure you can get a map with a purchased card on that system. But if the card's cheap enough I guess it's worth a shot.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

If the cable card is set up already for your system (has the correct channel map) it will work for about 30 to 45 days, after that time the card will go dead because of an internal timer. This is to prevent someone activating a cable card with all channels than putting in a trap so that the cable co. can't communicate with the card than you cancel all but basic, for about 30 to 45 days you will get the full line up as the cable co. can't turn your card off.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Yea, I'm real confused by all this.. the ebay cards that Tivoitis purchased.. did he then activate them with the cableco? If so, then alright.. I'm just trying to get channel mapping for the free broadcast channels, since that's primarily what we watch. The question is whether I can get a cablecard and use it just to get the free broadcast HD channel map information without having to go through the cableco at all.

I spoke with knology about it yesterday and the story is that I need a "digital outlet" for *each* cable card.. So if I need three cablecards, they'll charge me three "digital outlet" fees ($10/mo) plus the cablecard fee ($1.95/mo).. They say that each "digital outlet" enables them to communicate with its respective cablecard.

Obviously I'm not signing on to that with them JUST to get the right free broadcast channels..

Here's what's really weird. The Tivo S3OLED and Panasonic TCP50G10 TV that were both bought about the same time (2009) can both tune the free broadcast channels 901-905 (cbs/nbc/abc/pbs/fox) just fine. Tivo and TV both.. In the bedroom, neither the S3HD nor the TV (toshiba 40e210u) can tune 901-905. When I try.. nothing. Bring the S3OLED back to the bedroom, it can tune 901-905 just fine, so NOT a problem with the coax itself.. And btw, NO devices have cablecards.. S3OLED did for a week, Panasonic TV never did.. S3HD I don't know, I'm the 2nd or 3rd owner. It might have had one installed in the past, I have no way to know..

So.. *IF* Knology has moved channels around, why does my TV and S3OLED still tune them, if they don't have any cablecards to get updates from?? If knology has NOT moved them, then why can't at least the TV in the bedroom pick them up? ... That continues to absolutely baffle me..



..dane


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Have you tried a channel scan and then making sure those channels are selected?

Scott


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## Tivoitis (Sep 12, 2005)

audiodane said:


> Yea, I'm real confused by all this.. the ebay cards that Tivoitis purchased.. did he then activate them with the cableco? If so, then alright.. I'm just trying to get channel mapping for the free broadcast channels, since that's primarily what we watch. The question is whether I can get a cablecard and use it just to get the free broadcast HD channel map information without having to go through the cableco at all.
> 
> I spoke with knology about it yesterday and the story is that I need a "digital outlet" for *each* cable card.. So if I need three cablecards, they'll charge me three "digital outlet" fees ($10/mo) plus the cablecard fee ($1.95/mo).. They say that each "digital outlet" enables them to communicate with its respective cablecard.
> 
> ...


I didn't/couldn't activate my eBay M-cards. I'm assuming I receive just these local channels in clear QAM and that's why I can see them on my Tivo HD's, but I don't really have any test equipment to verify. I do keep one active card that I rent from Verizon, so that may help with my situation. Your mileage may vary, but if I were you, I'd buy just one card off eBay and give it a shot.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

HerronScott said:


> Have you tried a channel scan and then making sure those channels are selected?


Yup.. In a channel scan, they don't even show up.. I will have to look again, but I think they DO show up on different xx-yyy channels, but not 901-905. I'm too scared of loosing them to try a fresh channel scan on my S3OLED.

I just checked the panasonic TV again.. no longer 901-905. So clearly the channel map *has* changed. Only my S3OLED at this point maintains the 901-905 mapping. But it doesn't have a cable card. It did for about a week, a year ago, but not since.. weird..

..dane


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Tivoitis said:


> I didn't/couldn't activate my eBay M-cards. I'm assuming I receive just these local channels in clear QAM and that's why I can see them on my Tivo HD's, but I don't really have any test equipment to verify. I do keep one active card that I rent from Verizon, so that may help with my situation. Your mileage may vary, but if I were you, I'd buy just one card off eBay and give it a shot.


I'm getting close to that..  Don't know what brand I should buy though. I work 30 minutes in the opposite direction from the Knology local office, so I will have to go by there a day I'm local to see if they will show me what brand they currently use.. if it matters..

Might just buy and try and just see what happens after all.. $10 ain't much.

..dane


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

I'd love to have FIOS, and have the "problem" of paying $6 per cablecard. Comcast is $7.50 per cablecard, but they have a discounted rate for the dual cablecard TiVos, I think it's like $1.50 for the second one.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

audiodane said:


> Yup.. In a channel scan, they don't even show up.. I will have to look again, but I think they DO show up on different xx-yyy channels, but not 901-905. I'm too scared of loosing them to try a fresh channel scan on my S3OLED.
> 
> I just checked the panasonic TV again.. no longer 901-905. So clearly the channel map *has* changed. Only my S3OLED at this point maintains the 901-905 mapping. But it doesn't have a cable card. It did for about a week, a year ago, but not since.. weird..
> 
> ..dane


So I think you answered your own question although I find it interesting that the S3OLED has maintained the cablecard channel map without the cablecard and with the channel mapping being changed.

I guess you could try that with the S3HD and get a cablecard for a month or 2 and then discontinue the service and see if it also returns the clear QAM channels and mapping.

Scott


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

HerronScott said:


> So I think you answered your own question although I find it interesting that the S3OLED has maintained the cablecard channel map without the cablecard and with the channel mapping being changed.
> 
> I guess you could try that with the S3HD and get a cablecard for a month or 2 and then discontinue the service and see if it also returns the clear QAM channels and mapping.
> 
> Scott


Unfortunately I never wrote down the 'actual' channels before.. So I don't "really know" much of anything. I just know my TV can't tune 901-905 when it used-to-could (how's that for good southern grammer), but my s3oled can. I'm "this close" to just buying one or two off ebay and just try 'em.. 

..dane


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Well I went ahead and bought a Motorola card today for under $7 shipped.. We'll see how that pans out first.. Not a whole lot to loose for less than 10 bucks.. If it gives me the free broadcast channel-mapping, then I am an extremely happy camper!

(Since I've kind of derailed this thread, I'm going to post the same update to a more on-topic thread and stop pooping in this one.. Sorry guys!)

..dane


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

Without getting it activated (which it's unlikely you'll be able to do), I'm not sure how it will help but let us know!

Scott


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

Scott, I totally agree. I really don't know what I'm doing. Some posts lead me to believe it may get the channel map regardless, but only enable channel decryption after pairing and activation.. Other posts seem to indicate that absolutely nothing will work until it is paired and activated. So I really have no idea. I'm literally "shooting in the dark" here, because the bullet is just so cheap, with a potential for high return..  If it does work, great! If not, I may or may not try one more brand before tossing in the towel..

I will certainly keep everyone posted. But in my other thread from now on.. This thread was originally for Verizon stuff, not fee-less cablecards.. The other thread is more on-topic..

cheers,
..dane


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

audiodane said:


> Scott, I totally agree. I really don't know what I'm doing. Some posts lead me to believe it may get the channel map regardless, but only enable channel decryption after pairing and activation.. Other posts seem to indicate that absolutely nothing will work until it is paired and activated. So I really have no idea. I'm literally "shooting in the dark" here, because the bullet is just so cheap, with a potential for high return..  If it does work, great! If not, I may or may not try one more brand before tossing in the towel..
> 
> I will certainly keep everyone posted. But in my other thread from now on.. This thread was originally for Verizon stuff, not fee-less cablecards.. The other thread is more on-topic..
> 
> ...


If the card was once used on your type of cable system it will work for you for maybe 30 to 60 days, if it had been used on another system it will not re-map so you would be out of luck. You can test this out if you have two cable card TiVos, just switch the cable card between TiVos and see what you get and don't get.
This cable card crap was not put on us if it would have been easy to defeat by purchasing an E-Bay cable card, and they would cost much more than $10 if they did work; think what one would be saving, for some it would over $8/month. Bad people would be breaking into homes to steal cable cards, cable cards are as safe as digital cable boxes, as far as I know nobody has broken into any digital cable box as they did with the old analog cable boxes.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

He's not trying to use a card to get encrypted channels, just the maps. There's nothing the cableCo is out for by providing the maps for local channels in the clear.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

slowbiscuit said:


> He's not trying to use a card to get encrypted channels, just the maps. There's nothing the cableCo is out for by providing the maps for local channels in the clear.


That may be what you think, but the cable co head end will not map any cable card until it is registered with the head end_ than paired _(after the card is registered with the cable co the mapping may take place before it is paired), after that if you put that card into another cable card device the map will stay in the cable card letting you get the correct non encrypted channels, but as I said if within 30 to 60 days the card does not get any refresh command from the head end it will shut down. If the person you get the card from is in your area so the card is mapped to your area, and that seller does not report a lost cable card and keeps paying for the card it will work, not too likely to happen that way.


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## audiodane (Oct 28, 2009)

slowbiscuit said:


> He's not trying to use a card to get encrypted channels, just the maps. There's nothing the cableCo is out for by providing the maps for local channels in the clear.





lessd said:


> That may be what you think, but the cable co head end will not map any cable card until it is registered with the head end_ than paired _(after the card is registered with the cable co the mapping may take place before it is paired), after that if you put that card into another cable card device the map will stay in the cable card letting you get the correct non encrypted channels, but as I said if within 30 to 60 days the card does not get any refresh command from the head end it will shut down. If the person you get the card from is in your area so the card is mapped to your area, and that seller does not report a lost cable card and keeps paying for the card it will work, not too likely to happen that way.


less, I appreciate what you're saying. This post in my other thread seems to indicate otherwise, however. The moto card didn't work, but the SA card seems to have worked (for the most part). You might also find it interesting that I looked up the phone number that the SA card referenced and it was for Comcast in Baltimore, MD.. I'm on Knology in Alabama. Not even the same cable company, much less my region. The card received a firmware update, and the channel map for most of the channels. I would certainly not call it perfect, but I would put it squarely _between_ the two camps of "it will work fine" and "it will do nothing." There are certainly more variables at play here than I care to deal with.. It may be that you speaking from your experience is just as valid as me speaking from mine, if we're on different cable networks. If you're speaking only on theoreticals, then this may be evidence to change your mind.. I'm not wanting an argument, I just wanted to share my findings..

cheers,
..dane


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

audiodane said:


> less, I appreciate what you're saying. This post in my other thread seems to indicate otherwise, however. The moto card didn't work, but the SA card seems to have worked (for the most part). You might also find it interesting that I looked up the phone number that the SA card referenced and it was for Comcast in Baltimore, MD.. I'm on Knology in Alabama. Not even the same cable company, much less my region. The card received a firmware update, and the channel map for most of the channels. I would certainly not call it perfect, but I would put it squarely _between_ the two camps of "it will work fine" and "it will do nothing." There are certainly more variables at play here than I care to deal with.. It may be that you speaking from your experience is just as valid as me speaking from mine, if we're on different cable networks. If you're speaking only on theoreticals, then this may be evidence to change your mind.. I'm not wanting an argument, I just wanted to share my findings..
> 
> cheers,
> ..dane


I am just talking about Comcast in the Hartford CT area, no knowledge about any other system, if your card works for more than 60 days in the state it is in, please let us know. The idea of the cable cards was to control each cable outlet and pair each card to one piece of equipment, (so one could not move a card from room to room each room having its own cable equipment like a TV). Some cable co don't even require pairing but I think all MSO require the registration of each card. A friend sent me a TiVo (from out of my state) to fix and he did not take out the activated cable card, it was the same model as my cards but would not work on my cable system to get any channels, just keep saying something like trying to find channels, I left it that way for a few hours but nothing.


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## Bigg (Oct 31, 2003)

Cable Cards shouldn't work across systems.


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## fredmertz (Jan 18, 2005)

jerryr001 said:


> I finally received a follow-up call from Verizon. It was a very short and sweet call. They simply said, we are waiving the fee for both of your CableCards. There was no mention of my complaint. So, I'm not sure if they got it from my post to the Verizon discussion board or my complaint to the FCC that the original rep insisted didn't cover them.
> 
> Despite my belief that the rule requires them to discount the package the cost of the free set-top box, I graciously accepted... and I'm running.


This is an old-ish thread, looking for updates. I recently became aware and signed up for the Verizon 200GC + FreeDVR for 12 months deal, with the intent of bringing my own TiVoHD and getting a 20/month discount off of the service. Verizon balked in much the same way as they did with Jerry. Just got a form letter today from Verizon saying that the DVR wasn't really bundled. In my followup, I'm planning to ask if I can stop by and pick up a free DVR without subscribing to the service, if it is not a part of the bundle?

Has anyone gotten the full benefit of the part 76 rules yet?

Thanks!
Fred


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

fredmertz said:


> In my followup, I'm planning to ask if I can stop by and pick up a free DVR without subscribing to the service, if it is not a part of the bundle?


You can pickup an HD box or an SD box without service, but they will charge for it. Your first SD box is free with installation, but if you make the mistake of returning it (like I did) they will charge you if you ever want another SD box. I only returned mine because they claimed they'd give me an HD box free of charge but someone called me back within a week to rescind that offer.


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

Verizon is now charging $5/month per card, so it now costs $10 to operate a Series3. Outrageous!!

I started a complaint thread at Verizon's forums. Please click on the link, "vote" and post your dismay so our voices can be heard.

http://forums.verizon.com/t5/Share-Your-Ideas-with-Verizon/Eliminate-duplicate-CableCARD-fees-for-same-device/idi-p/630499


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

headless chicken said:


> Verizon is now charging $5/month per card, so it now costs $10 to operate a Series3. Outrageous!!
> 
> I started a complaint thread at Verizon's forums. Please click on the link, "vote" and post your dismay so our voices can be heard.
> 
> http://forums.verizon.com/t5/Share-Your-Ideas-with-Verizon/Eliminate-duplicate-CableCARD-fees-for-same-device/idi-p/630499


I'm glad it wasn't $5 several years ago. I used to pay FiOS $24 a month for cable cards when I used eight of them when I had S3 boxes.

Now I'm down to one cable card so they only get $5 from a month from me in cable card fees.

EDIT: I just looked at the post on the Verizon forums. It says you payed $500 for a lifetime subscription. Lifetime service was $400 back then or $300 with the MSD. Although I paid $200 for lifetime on a couple of my S3 boxes and $300 for another.

FIOS has always charged per cable card. I don't see why they would suddenly change this now. Especially when it would affect such a small amount of users. When I got FiOS in Summer 2007 I needed two cable cards for each OLED S3 I owned. And paid per cable card That was their policy then, and it is still their policy today.


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## headless chicken (Oct 8, 2004)

aaronwt said:


> EDIT: I just looked at the post on the Verizon forums. It says you payed $500 for a lifetime subscription. Lifetime service was $400 back then or $300 with the MSD.


I'll correct that figure.



aaronwt said:


> FIOS has always charged per cable card. I don't see why they would suddenly change this now. Especially when it would affect such a small amount of users. When I got FiOS in Summer 2007 I needed two cable cards for each OLED S3 I owned. And paid per cable card That was their policy then, and it is still their policy today.


All the more reason to appease the customer, no? It's not like making this adjustment would adversely impact their revenue or anything, but it would make a big difference in customer satisfaction. Paying $10 in cablecard fees just to operate a single DVR box is absurd.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

headless chicken said:


> All the more reason to appease the customer, no? It's not like making this adjustment would adversely impact their revenue or anything, but it would make a big difference in customer satisfaction. Paying $10 in cablecard fees just to operate a single DVR box is absurd.


Honestly, it's more absurd that the Series 3 boxes require two cable cards.

But yes, I agree that $5 a month for a cable card is outlandish. I just got a Roamio and a new cable card (needed a new one as old ones had issues with HBO) so I'm down to one cable card. Prior to this I had the same 2 cards for about 4.5 years. I paid them about $216 plus tax for each card at $4 a month. I just now turned them in when I got the Roamio. I think Verizon did very well on my cards.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

NYHeel said:


> Honestly, it's more absurd that the Series 3 boxes require two cable cards.


No, what's absurd is that people are *****ing about technology that didn't exist. Let's go over this one last time so you can understand it. The S3 was developed before multi-stream cards were available so Tivo had to use single stream cards. They had no other choice, period. This is a hardware design issue and can't be upgraded with a software fix. The Tivo HD and later models were introduced after multi-stream cards became available, hence the reason they only use a single card.

If you want to use both tuners in a S3 OLED Tivo then you have to use two cards. This is not an option. If you don't like it, get a different Tivo.


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## NYHeel (Oct 7, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> No, what's absurd is that people are *****ing about technology that didn't exist. Let's go over this one last time so you can understand it. The S3 was developed before multi-stream cards were available so Tivo had to use single stream cards. They had no other choice, period. This is a hardware design issue and can't be upgraded with a software fix. The Tivo HD and later models were introduced after multi-stream cards became available, hence the reason they only use a single card.
> 
> If you want to use both tuners in a S3 OLED Tivo then you have to use two cards. This is not an option. If you don't like it, get a different Tivo.


I've never owned the S3 OLED box so I'm not complaining. I just think it's crazy that a box still being used today requires 2 cable cards. I'm not blaming anyone except maybe the user that still chooses to pay double the amount in cable card fees. It just sounds insane. That's all. I'm sure there are good reasons for it.

But since you brought it up, Tivo couldn't have built it for multi stream cards as well since they knew the M-cards would be out really soon?


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

NYHeel said:


> I've never owned the S3 OLED box so I'm not complaining. I just think it's crazy that a box still being used today requires 2 cable cards. I'm not blaming anyone except maybe the user that still chooses to pay double the amount in cable card fees. It just sounds insane. That's all. I'm sure there are good reasons for it.
> 
> But since you brought it up, Tivo couldn't have built it for multi stream cards as well since they knew the M-cards would be out really soon?


They tried, but without final spec M-cards to test against it turned out that the S3 implementation wasn't actually compatible.

That kind of crap happens when you have to design against a, not quite finalized, paper spec instead of being able to actually test against a reference implementation. TiVo took their best shot, it didn't work, and their rep has told us here that when they went back to look it wasn't possibly to safely field update S3s to the 'as implemented' M-card spec.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

NYHeel said:


> I've never owned the S3 OLED box so I'm not complaining. I just think it's crazy that a box still being used today requires 2 cable cards. I'm not blaming anyone except maybe the user that still chooses to pay double the amount in cable card fees. It just sounds insane. That's all. I'm sure there are good reasons for it.


 I ADORE my S3 OLED box, it's one of the best built pieces of consumer electronics I have ever owned, the 2 cards are worth it to me to have that box in service in the house, they really got everything right for me on it.

The only potential replacement for it may be a 6-tuner Roamio, I'm very happy with the Roamio performance vs my Elite.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

I used to own two S3 OLED Tivos and liked them a lot better than most of the newer models. It was the first cablecard Tivo and I paid a premium price for early technology, although I technically wasn't an early adopter. I had to use four single stream cablecards at $2.99 apiece. I don't know if they'd still be grandfathered in at that price, but when I added a Ceton tuner to the mix and got an M-card for it, the price for the M-card was $3.99. The price of my S-cards never went up the entire time I had them. 

I suspect that if they had been M-cards the cost would have gone up with the priced increase. Perhaps Verizon felt it was more profitable to rent obsolete technology at a lower cost than run the risk of losing any revenue by increasing the monthly fee. The S-cards would have been useless to them if I returned them since they now only provide M-cards.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

Jonathan_S said:


> They tried, but without final spec M-cards to test against it turned out that the S3 implementation wasn't actually compatible.
> 
> That kind of crap happens when you have to design against a, not quite finalized, paper spec instead of being able to actually test against a reference implementation. TiVo took their best shot, it didn't work, and their rep has told us here that when they went back to look it wasn't possibly to safely field update S3s to the 'as implemented' M-card spec.


Anyone who doesn't understand why an original S3 can't use M cards never went through the "Pentium Ready" 486 motherboard fiasco.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I used to own two S3 OLED Tivos and liked them a lot better than most of the newer models. It was the first cablecard Tivo and I paid a premium price for early technology, although I technically wasn't an early adopter. I had to use four single stream cablecards at $2.99 apiece. I don't know if they'd still be grandfathered in at that price, but when I added a Ceton tuner to the mix and got an M-card for it, the price for the M-card was $3.99. The price of my S-cards never went up the entire time I had them.
> 
> I suspect that if they had been M-cards the cost would have gone up with the priced increase. Perhaps Verizon felt it was more profitable to rent obsolete technology at a lower cost than run the risk of losing any revenue by increasing the monthly fee. The S-cards would have been useless to them if I returned them since they now only provide M-cards.


There was no grandfathering here. When I got FiOS in 2007, I used six, single stream cards for $2.99 each in three OLED S3 TiVos along with a couple of multi stream cards in two TiVo HD boxes. When the prices went up to $3.99, they went up on all my cards, there was no grandfathering for me.

Unless the price increase did occur after the Premiere came out. I do know that when the Premiere came out, i got rid of all of my Single Stream cards and got Multi stream cards instead since I had ordered a bunch of launch Premieres to replace all my S3 TiVo HDs and S3 OLED TiVos.


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## Scootr (Dec 21, 2013)

We paid V Fios $5.99 a month for the cablecard rental.


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## cram501 (Oct 23, 2002)

Jonathan_S said:


> They tried, but without final spec M-cards to test against it turned out that the S3 implementation wasn't actually compatible.
> 
> That kind of crap happens when you have to design against a, not quite finalized, paper spec instead of being able to actually test against a reference implementation. TiVo took their best shot, it didn't work, and their rep has told us here that when they went back to look it wasn't possibly to safely field update S3s to the 'as implemented' M-card spec.


Tivo could have updated the S3 for M-Cards but they chose not to do so. It wasn't worth the trouble and risk.

TivoPony: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6598668#post6598668


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## Richter12x2 (Dec 27, 2013)

jay_man2 said:


> I have FiOS and wouldn't take the DVR if they paid me to. Well, I might take it and store it in a closet.


I know this is an old post, but even though this may have a witty retort, why don't you just do this? The same cablecard they use in their DVR is the one you'd need for your Tivo, so just pull it out of theirs, stick it in yours, and put the Verizon one in the closet.

Job done.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Richter12x2 said:


> I know this is an old post, but even though this may have a witty retort, why don't you just do this? The same cablecard they use in their DVR is the one you'd need for your Tivo, so just pull it out of theirs, stick it in yours, and put the Verizon one in the closet.
> 
> Job done.


Version may get cranky if you did that, and had to re-pare the card


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

lessd said:


> Version may get cranky if you did that, and had to re-pare the card


Indeed, they wouldn't let you re-pair it. But you'd still get everything except HBO and Cinemax without pairing.

A bigger issue is that you'd be paying the DVR rental price just to get a CableCard, which is a really bad deal.


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## JSY (Nov 6, 2002)

Does Verizon really charge $5 or $5.99/mo for cable card services? That's outrageous.. Is there anything in the laws to prevent them from pushing the prices so high to make it anti-competitive? I'm still bothered that TWC raise their price from $1.50 to $2.50 years ago... but $5 and up would sort of make it cost prohibitive almost. It makes me think they are doing this on purpose as more people have multiple tuners and things like the Mini.

That being said, while I also have a TWCNYC set top box along with my TiVos - I just can't imagine having to go back to using their box even at that price. For all the issues that people might have with TiVo, it doesn't compare to the suffering that you have to endure with their own box. I really don't know after all these years how they get away with giving out such an inferior experience with their DVRs. Well, I guess the answer is just that many people don't know or can't be bothered doing what we all do.

I've been lucky and have had minimal to no issues moving my cablecard from my Premiere XL to my Roamio Pro. (knock on wood) I know not everyone has had the same experience though.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

JSY said:


> Does Verizon really charge $5 or $5.99/mo for cable card services? That's outrageous.. Is there anything in the laws to prevent them from pushing the prices so high to make it anti-competitive?


Providers are free to charge what they feel is fair and competitive. Considering that we are no longer required to rent any hardware from Verizon or any other provider, $4.99 per month, which is the current cost, isn't that bad. My total equipment rental fees with FIOS is for three cablecards and no set top boxes or DVRs. I signed up for a 2-year commitment which locks me into the current rates and also gives me a discount, so my monthly bill is lower. FIOS internet is the best available, IMHO, so it's worth the cost just to get it. I also get a discount for having the bundled service (internet, phone, and TV), plus I get my wireless service included in one monthly bill.

Gripe all you want about Verizon's cablecard fees, but I'll take them over any other provider out there.


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## StrynBean (Aug 5, 2004)

I was planning on switching from Comcast to Verizon.

I have 3 Tivo boxes that have lifetime.

I am staying with Comcast.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> Providers are free to charge what they feel is fair and competitive. Considering that we are no longer required to rent any hardware from Verizon or any other provider, $4.99 per month, which is the current cost, isn't that bad. My total equipment rental fees with FIOS is for three cablecards and no set top boxes or DVRs. I signed up for a 2-year commitment which locks me into the current rates and also gives me a discount, so my monthly bill is lower. FIOS internet is the best available, IMHO, so it's worth the cost just to get it. I also get a discount for having the bundled service (internet, phone, and TV), plus I get my wireless service included in one monthly bill.
> 
> Gripe all you want about Verizon's cablecard fees, but I'll take them over any other provider out there.


Comcast, for most people, is $8.45/month per cable card and about 9% taxes. ($1.00 for the card, $9.95 for the AO charge - $2.50cr for using your own equipment). I have been grandfather in at one $7.45 charge + $1 each for 4 cable cards.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

No, it's $7.45 per month on average for Comcast ($9.95 outlet fee minus $2.50 credit). I don't know where you're getting the $1 extra charge from, you're the only one I've seen reporting it.

Regardless of what it is exactly, the fact that the FCC lets Comcast skirt the reasonable card rental rules is disappointing. Multiple complaints have been filed about it but the FCC looks the other way. It's also annoying that card charges on Comcast vary wildly by area and what CSR you get, there's not much consistency to them. Some don't pay anything for cards, some pay a minor per-card charge ($1-2), some pay full outlet with or without a credit.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, it's $7.45 per month on average for Comcast ($9.95 outlet fee minus $2.50 credit). I don't know where you're getting the $1 extra charge from, you're the only one I've seen reporting it.
> 
> Regardless of what it is exactly, the fact that the FCC lets Comcast skirt the reasonable card rental rules is disappointing. Multiple complaints have been filed about it but the FCC looks the other way. It's also annoying that card charges on Comcast vary wildly by area and what CSR you get, there's not much consistency to them. Some don't pay anything for cards, some pay a minor per-card charge ($1-2), some pay full outlet with or without a credit.


Actually, I think the most common is that people pay a small charge for the card (a couple of bucks) and then pay an outlet fee on top of that (which where the $1 comes from). I believe that is the national advice to the franchises. But some franchises bundle the cablecard fee into the outlet fee - it depends on how they break down the charges for their own equipment.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

CrispyCritter said:


> Actually, I think the most common is that people pay a small charge for the card (a couple of bucks) and then pay an outlet fee on top of that (which where the $1 comes from). I believe that is the national advice to the franchises. But some franchises bundle the cablecard fee into the outlet fee - it depends on how they break down the charges for their own equipment.


According to the information at the Comcast website, they are only supposed to charge for the 2nd CableCARD _*in the same device*_:



> The first CableCARD in a retail device (e.g., TiVo devices or CableCARD equipped televisions) is provided at no additional charge to Comcast customers. If a second CableCARD is needed for the same device (i.e., TiVo Series 3 boxes), the cost is $1.50 per month for the additional card. Again, this only applies to a second CableCARD in the same device.


I have 4 TiVos, one of which is a TiVo 2(w/PLS) connected to one of their boxes, said box counting as the one included in the package. I am paying a net $7.45ea/mo for the other 3 ($9.95ea/mo "Digital Service" fee - $2.50ea/mo "Customer Owned Equipment - Adjustment").


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## JSY (Nov 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> Regardless of what it is exactly, the fact that the FCC lets Comcast skirt the reasonable card rental rules is disappointing. Multiple complaints have been filed about it but the FCC looks the other way.


This is what I'm talking about.. I mean at a certain point it become anti-competitive and I have to imagine all that hard work to force cable companies to allow people to own set top boxes meant they worked out rules against cable companies making it so expensive that people wouldn't own their own boxes. The way I see it - my cable card costs have almost doubled since I started with cable cards about 5 years ago - which is at a far higher rate of increase than anything else on my cable bill, including their own STB, over that period. Now, if that money was going to train their customer service better then maybe I wouldn't be so bothered. lol


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Verizon only charges for the card. There are no extra outlet fees. If anyone's penalizing cablecard users, it's Comcast, not Verizon.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

CrispyCritter said:


> Actually, I think the most common is that people pay a small charge for the card (a couple of bucks) and then pay an outlet fee on top of that (which where the $1 comes from). I believe that is the national advice to the franchises. But some franchises bundle the cablecard fee into the outlet fee - it depends on how they break down the charges for their own equipment.


Because I have 4 cable cards at $1 each a month plus I have 1 AO fee of $7.45, until a few months ago I was not even paying the AO fee, Comcast caught on, so the CS said that the AO fee I had to pay but they would give me SHO for fee for the next year, some of my friends on the same Comcast system are paying $7.45 for each cable card and the extra $1/ per month. Comcast is all over the place with their charges. I have Comcast Hartford CT.
This is from my bill

*Digital Additional 12/25 - 01/24 7.45
Outlet Service Charge (with Cablecard)
Includes Customer-owned Video Equipment
Credit.
2nd Cablecard 12/25 - 01/24 4.00
Same Outlet.
Qty 4 @ $1.00 each
Total Additional XFINITY TV Services $
*


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

That explains how you're only dealing with one AO fee. Comcast has all 4 of your CableCard's coded as being the "second card in the same device" billing line item which was meant to cover the situation that arose from the original S3's where you needed 2 CableCards for a single device.

Consider yourself lucky and don't be surprised when a Comcast audit catches that mistake. Per your bill, you have a 4 CableCards in the same retail device.


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## unitron (Apr 28, 2006)

tatergator1 said:


> ... Per your bill, you have a 4 CableCards in the same retail device.


Ain't it amazin' what you can do with the right sized hammer?


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lessd said:


> Because I have 4 cable cards at $1 each a month plus I have 1 AO fee of $7.45, until a few months ago I was not even paying the AO fee, Comcast caught on, so the CS said that the AO fee I had to pay but they would give me SHO for fee for the next year, some of my friends on the same Comcast system are paying $7.45 for each cable card and the extra $1/ per month. Comcast is all over the place with their charges. I have Comcast Hartford CT.
> This is from my bill
> 
> *Digital Additional 12/25 - 01/24 7.45
> ...


Do you have any of _*their*_ boxes?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

CrispyCritter said:


> Actually, I think the most common is that people pay a small charge for the card (a couple of bucks) and then pay an outlet fee on top of that (which where the $1 comes from). I believe that is the national advice to the franchises. But some franchises bundle the cablecard fee into the outlet fee - it depends on how they break down the charges for their own equipment.


By every account I've seen here, AVS, TGB, and DSLR this is not correct as I posted above. If you can find links supporting this uncommon billing I'd like to see them - they either charge full outlet minus credit or a token $1-2 charge (or no charge), not both.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> Do you have any of _*their*_ boxes?


The lowest end HD cable box that came with my package, I was told I would get no cr if I return that unit.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lessd said:


> The lowest end HD cable box that came with my package, I was told I would get no cr if I return that unit.


Was this originally something other than Comcast? Normally, if you have one of their HD boxes, they add an "HD Technology fee".

If I were in a similar situation and had 4 single CableCARD using TiVos and none of their boxes, I would be charged 3x$9.95 "Digital Service" (aka ADO) fees and receive 4x$2.50/mo "Customer Owned Equipment Adjustment" credits.

What exactly did they mean by "... I would get no cr if I return that unit."?

Current bottom line though is that you are paying them $11.45/mo for 4 additional CableCARD outlets whereas if they "fix" it (and you return their box), it would be a net $19.85/mo charge, so you are better off with their current crazy charges by $8.40/mo.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

lpwcomp said:


> Was this originally something other than Comcast? Normally, if you have one of their HD boxes, they add an "HD Technology fee".
> 
> If I were in a similar situation and had 4 single CableCARD using TiVos and none of their boxes, I would be charged 3x$9.95 "Digital Service" (aka ADO) fees and receive 4x$2.50/mo "Customer Owned Equipment Adjustment" credits.
> 
> ...


The system was Comcast when I got my first Cable cards in 2007, the credit I was referring to was for the one small HD cable box that came with the triple play package that Comcast gave me, Comcast told me that I would not save any money if I turned in that small HD cable box, as I have a fixed price of $140 for my package that includes blast internet, HBO, and expanded digital cable, the bill gives my package a price of $185 with a $45 discount. When I first got the package the price was $170 with a $30 discount. Next June I will have to re-up my package, not looking forward to that experience.


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## lpwcomp (May 6, 2002)

lessd said:


> The system was Comcast when I got my first Cable cards in 2007, the credit I was referring to was for the one small HD cable box that came with the triple play package that Comcast gave me, Comcast told me that I would not save any money if I turned in that small HD cable box, as I have a fixed price of $140 for my package that includes blast internet, HBO, and expanded digital cable, the bill gives my package a price of $185 with a $45 discount. When I first got the package the price was $170 with a $30 discount. Next June I will have to re-up my package, not looking forward to that experience.


I vaguely remember some of your previous posts on the subject and IIRC, they had some convoluted and, IMHO, totally bogus explanation as to why this was not a violation of FCC regulations. However, since you are paying less than you would if they were doing it "right"...


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## JSY (Nov 6, 2002)

slowbiscuit said:


> By every account I've seen here, AVS, TGB, and DSLR this is not correct as I posted above. If you can find links supporting this uncommon billing I'd like to see them - they either charge full outlet minus credit or a token $1-2 charge (or no charge), not both.


Interesting - I looked at my bill closer and notice that it does indeed seem like my cable company is charging me a $2.50 fee for the cable card and that is it. My bill is a bit complicated since I actually do have two HD DVRs set top boxes along with a cable card. I can see on my bill that I am charged for each set top box, and then a DVR fee for each, and the SECOND DVR has an additional outlet fee. However, the cable card stands alone at $2.50.

Now, I wonder if it's because I already have the other charges because I have a hard time believing that if I did not have any set top boxes - that my bill would only be $2.50 (plus taxes). Who knows... They purposely make this so vague.


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