# Lost: Season Finale, May 13 1977



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

The first three minutes: Out of the park! Jacob is real, and was there to see the Black Rock land. But who was on the Island with him?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Watching live...

So Jacob is Forrest Gump?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I'm not liking this, I feel a big WTF coming up. 

It's going to be a long time until the next episode!!!!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Killer Chains!!!!! Seriously?


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> I'm not liking this, I feel a big WTF coming up.
> 
> It's going to be a long time until the next episode!!!!


It's LOST!


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## Win Joy Jr (Oct 1, 2001)

Destiny Found...


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Isn't it called "The Incident?"

And Meh. We didn't learn that much at all.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

We learned quite a bit about Jacob, and what really happened to Locke.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

OK so obviously the hydrogen bomb stops the super magnatism thing, and that's exactly what happened when desmond turned the key too. I guess that is their failsafe. 

So, maybe Juliette is still alive like Desmond was after he used the failsafe.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> We learned quite a bit about Jacob, and what really happened to Locke.


So Locke is really dead, and faux Locke is the guy at the begining of the episode who we never found out who he was.

Also they sure made Jacob out to be a great guy in this.


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## Frash (Jan 15, 2005)

So is this a whole "God vs Satan" thing?


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> We learned quite a bit about Jacob, and what really happened to Locke.


What really did happen to Locke? That he died and stayed dead?

Who was fake Locke?

What did Richard say in Latin to Ilana?

I guess that group isn't Dharma, but who are they?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

God VS Satan or Romulus and Remus?


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Translated he said "I don't know. But if I speak with authority and gravitas in a language you don't understand, you might believe me."


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## Donbadabon (Mar 5, 2002)

Nice black thong Kate was wearing. 
It was peeking out when she was pulling Sawyer out of the pit.
Ok, now to watch the ending.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> I guess that group isn't Dharma, but who are they?


They're the good guys!!!


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Dead *is* dead.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Did you ever stop to think that what Jack is doing IS the incident?
good stuff.


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## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

astrohip said:


> Dead *is* dead.


Unless you are LOST!


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

"I lied"

"It's what I do"


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

So is Dead Locke the Smoke Monster? Possibly.

Seems to me that it was someone or something banished from the island under the rules of "the game" and found a "loophole" in the rules to get back as dead Locke.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Gunnyman said:


> Did you ever stop to think that what Jack is doing IS the incident?
> good stuff.


What happened, happened. All Jack did was show Radzinsky how to create the failsafe for the swan.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I think the loop hole was the ability to kill Jacob.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> What happened, happened. All Jack did was show Radzinsky how to create the failsafe for the swan.


Yeah I know I just thought it was a great line for Miles.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dead Locke must be the guy who was with Jacob when the Black Rock arrived.

I smell some very old flashbacks coming on!

Maybe some VERY old flashbacks...


Gunnyman said:


> Yeah I know I just thought it was a great line for Miles.


It's certainly what I had been thinking ever since Farraday came up with the plan.

Dead is dead. What happened, happened.


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## stitch626 (Jun 26, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> What did Richard say in Latin to Ilana?


I think he said "ille qui nos omnes servabit" and while my latin is rusty from high school basically he said "he who will save us all"


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

So the black shirt guy from the beginning... also took the form of christian? But christian's body wasn't found. Or christian was Jacob's rep and Locke is black shirt guy's rep.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Gunnyman said:


> I think the loop hole was the ability to kill Jacob.


Yup, at least, that's what he said at the begining of the episode.

Poor Richard was totally duped.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dead Locke must be the guy who was with Jacob when the Black Rock arrived.
> 
> I smell some very old flashbacks coming on!
> 
> ...


Maybe older than you imply.

If Richard is really "Ricardus" and speaks Latin, and the whole motif is Anicent Egyptian, how far back are we really going to go?


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## Mike Wells (Mar 9, 2000)

Wow, I'm still trying to get my mind around everything in this ep.

I think Miles may have the most telling line - something like "what if this bomb you guys want to set off CAUSE the problem and that's why you're here? What if doing nothing is the best idea?" We don't know if the first time around in 1977 the bomb didn't go off and they still built the Swan station, etc. I can see the producers going that route - surprise, the bomb didn't alter anything...

I sure hope Juliet isn't gone, but it already seems like a cop-out that she survived the fall down that shaft.

Less likely would be them having Juliet survive, but they might swing it that way too. Maybe the magnetic pocket contained or affected the blast?

Jacob story line - not sure what to think here. As with the series - who is the good guy? It sure looks like Jacob is the good guy. What is he trying to prove, from the beginning? If Jacob is the island's protector, what happens now?

Anyone care to translate the Latin?

I'm pretty sure, whatever happens, that they won't end up landing at LAX. That makes for a very boring season 6. 

Also glad to see Rose and Bernard - I had figured they had checked out and were doing their own thing. That's my guess for how this all plays out in the end - some of our original cast members living out their lives on the island in relative peace.

Ah, more thinking to be done.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

It sure is a shame that the "good guys" group didn't show Ben what was in that box on the beach that day, that sure could have changed the outcome of this episode.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

How did Bernard and Rose know what year it was?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Maybe older than you imply.
> 
> If Richard is really "Ricardus" and speaks Latin, and the whole motif is Anicent Egyptian, how far back are we really going to go?


That was my implication. Ancient times. The foundation of the island.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

The lamest part of the episode though was the fact that Jacob just let Ben stab him like 3 times.


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## Cindy1230 (Oct 31, 2003)

Didn't Ben and Widmore say they couldn't kill each other... it's just a cycle of two guys who can't kill each other... until well...the loophole.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Interesting that as Ben confronted Jacob there was a very strong, "free will" vs. "temptation" thing going on.


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## Mike Wells (Mar 9, 2000)

Philosofy said:


> How did Bernard and Rose know what year it was?


They had been stealing food - expiration dates? Some other contact with the dharma folks possibly.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

vertigo235 said:


> The lamest part of the episode though was the fact that Jacob just let Ben stab him like 3 times.


Do you believe that Jacob didn't know that was going to happen?

Maybe it's Jacob and not Locke that needs to die so that he can be reborn and save humanit. . . er. . . the Island.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

I liked how, in the opening scene, Jacob and that other guy were wearing white and black shirts respectively.


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## Mike Wells (Mar 9, 2000)

vertigo235 said:


> The lamest part of the episode though was the fact that Jacob just let Ben stab him like 3 times.


I thought this might be a Christ allegory, maybe. Of course, I thought that's where they were going with Locke, too.

If Jacob can heal people, appear and disappear, etc. surely he isn't going to let a stab wound get him down. Oh, and the fire too. Ah well.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Interesting that faux Locke created the loophole by having Richard tell alive-jumping-in-time-Locke that he had to bring everyone back to the island. So it wasn't Locke creating this destiny thing for himself, it was black shirt faux Locke creating a loophole.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

And what, if any, is Widmore's role in all of this?


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

crowfan said:


> I liked how, in the opening scene, Jacob and that other guy were wearing white and black shirts respectively.


Yeah, kinda goes back to the first season with the backgammon pieces.

I wonder how Jacob got off the island. He seems to be, or was at one time, mostly human. (He had to eat.)


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?

Jack
Locke
Kate
Sayid
Hurley
Sawyer

We got a flashback on Juliette, but no followup or appearance by Jacob.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Queue said:


> Yeah, kinda goes back to the first season with the backgammon pieces.
> 
> I wonder how Jacob got off the island. He seems to be, or was at one time, mostly human. (He had to eat.)


You mean he _could_ eat. That doesn't mean he _has_ to eat.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

I wonder if the plot line of women unable to bear children on the island will be revisited in the last season.


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## crazywater (Mar 7, 2001)

Maybe Juliet is the cause of women unable to bear children due to the bomb she detonated. And then 24 years later she is brought to the island to solve the mystery that she caused...


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

"What about you?" 
My favorite line of the night. :up:
Anyway, what I took away from all of this is that the black shirt guy has been pulling the strings all along (dating back to the Black Rock evidently) to "persuade" someone to kill Jacob since he can't for whatever reason.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

> *Lost: Season Finale, May 13 1977*


WTF? That's not the title of the episode, the air date, or the day it takes place.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Amazing two hours of television.

Jacob didn't seem scared.. he told Ben he had a choice (almost like Ben's very last chance).

Fake Locke was also Fake Ben's Daughter Alex (as was said last thread I think - that's why they weren't next to each other).

Two sides.. one light, one dark. Played beautifully with the opening scene.

2010 seems so damned far away. 

Part of me expects to see some pre-2007 scene with Jacob and anti-Jacob (dark-shirt guy) where dark-shirt turns into the smoke monster and Jacob turns into a previously-unseen-except-by-Locke white smoke (or something very beautiful)..

..but, they showed us a scene where Jacob was actually catching/killing/eating a fish, which _kind of_ implies he's a living person that can digest food etc.

Did Jacob want to kill Nadia, or did he want to save Sayid? Why not save both?

Is Jacob really dead?

Was Jacob already aware of darkshirt/fakeLocke's plan? He was off-island, far away from Ben's knife, when he told Ilana to go to the island..

Did Ilana's group take Locke's body from the coffin and put it in an empty crate they brought with them (or found on the plane)? Did they know there'd be an imposter? Why tell Caesar about Locke being found in the water?

In The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham, when we first see fake John, he's wearing a black cloak.

I wonder if Ilana was originally supposed to be Anna Lucia, before Anna's actress left the show?

It feels like there's an interesting parallel between Ben and Widmore both acknowledging that they can't kill each other (when they were in Widmore's place in London), and blackshirt and Jacob's discussion about wanting to kill him and him saying that someday he'd find a loophole.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

scandia101 said:


> WTF? That's not the title of the episode, the air date, or the day it takes place.


I vote not clever.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

I think there is a wager of some type between Jacob and faux Locke. Kind of like they are immortals. Faux Locke said in effect "It's always the same. They come, they conquer, they fight, they destroy." A statement about the fate of man. Jacob represents the "good" in man, constantly bringing people to the island to prove faux Locke wrong.

Jacob and faux Locke are incapable of killing each other directly, they are playing a game with each other.


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## Tsiehta (Jul 22, 2002)

duplicate post


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

That was a fun time. I was actually happy to see the bomb go off. Guess if they had a "which Lostie are you?" game I'd be Jack.



Philosofy said:


> How did Bernard and Rose know what year it was?


Yeah, I didn't really like their appearance, and personally didn't need it. I know lots of people wanted an answer about them, so that's cool they got their answer. But it didn't add anything to the episode for me. And there were some holes there.



Cindy1230 said:


> Didn't Ben and Widmore say they couldn't kill each other... it's just a cycle of two guys who can't kill each other... until well...the loophole.


If the loophole is as simple as "have someone else kill him" I'm a little puzzled why it took decades/centuries to finally pull it off. I expect a little more to the loophole.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> ...........Part of me expects to see some pre-2007 scene with Jacob and anti-Jacob (dark-shirt guy) where dark-shirt turns into the smoke monster and Jacob turns into a previously-unseen-except-by-Locke white smoke (or something very beautiful)..
> .......


You know, every time the flashes occur, or the failsafe is turned, we see what we have called white flashes. Perhaps it is white smoke protecting the people from the effects.....who knows.....

I liked how when our Jack decided to fight, he went Jack (Bauer).....

I looooooved this. Very touching at the end. We'll see what happens in a few wee.....months........er......man 2010.....so far away


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## vikingguy (Aug 12, 2005)

All I can say is wow it is going to be a long wait till Jan 2010. Season finale week has been kick ass this year so far with Fringe and Lost. Tomorrow I am sure supernatural will also be off the charts awesome.


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## Dad (Oct 27, 2001)

Queue said:


> I wonder how Jacob got off the island. He seems to be, or was at one time, mostly human. (He had to eat.)





Queue said:


> So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?
> 
> Jack
> Locke
> ...


I don't think that was Jacob, it was the other guy putting everything in play by visiting everyone he needed to come back to the island to complete his evil plan. If so, he played Ben perfectly and may even have talked Ben into wiping out Dharma so all this would come to be. Jacob's dying words were: "they're coming", which is exactly what the evil (or so it seems) guy was so pissed at Jacob about in the opening of the show. If the bomb going off was the "incident" does that mean that it goes back to the begining and flight 815 still crashes and 'round and ' round we go?

The mind reels...


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## Test (Dec 8, 2004)

I can't believe I didn't see the Locke in a box coming, when the body rolled out and they still weren't showing who it was I didn't put 2 n 2 together...all these thoughts on who it was going to be were racing through my head, thought for sure it was Jacob. Very cool.

Anyone guess that Bernard and rose are Adam and eve?


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

Definitely a GREAT season finale....and in typical LOST fashion, answered a few questions, but opened up a whole new can of questions.

I can't figured out why Jacob was visiting each of the people from flight 815 when they were younger. This shows me that they were predetermined WAY in advance that they were going to go to the island....unless Jacob can time travel as well....but why would he visit them anyway even if he knew they were coming to the island in the future?

16 Episodes left? It's gonna be tough to wrap all of it up in that time.

Only 8 months until it starts up again! (ugghh...8 months is too long!)


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## toddvj (Apr 22, 2004)

Donbadabon said:


> Nice black thong Kate was wearing.
> It was peeking out when she was pulling Sawyer out of the pit.
> Ok, now to watch the ending.


In 1977? I didn't think thongs were that common back then?


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## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

toddvj said:


> In 1977? I didn't think thongs were that common back then?


She was probably wearing her clothes from 2008 from when she got on the plane with everyone else.


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## SC0TLANDF0REVER (Dec 9, 2001)

So did anyone else's TiVo not record the whole episode?
Is there anyway to tell what would cause it to stop recording 42 minutes into the show?
I checked the estimated space avail by looking at the deleted folder and there was approx 7-9 hrs worth of HiDef that it could have deleted to make room...


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## fliptheflop (Sep 20, 2005)

Any chance that Ben is somehow related to Jacob...The loophole being it has to be a relative? I just think there has to be more to it then having just someone else do it.


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## wooh (Feb 20, 2006)

vertigo235 said:


> I'm not liking this, I feel a big WTF coming up.
> 
> It's going to be a long time until the next episode!!!!


In my head, I knew it would be a long time, probably next spring, but saying 2010 just makes it seem even further away.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Dad said:


> I don't think that was Jacob, it was the other guy putting everything in play by visiting everyone he needed to come back to the island to complete his evil plan. If so, he played Ben perfectly and may even have talked Ben into wiping out Dharma so all this would come to be. Jacob's dying words were: "they're coming", which is exactly what the evil (or so it seems) guy was so pissed at Jacob about in the opening of the show. If the bomb going off was the "incident" does that mean that it goes back to the begining and flight 815 still crashes and 'round and ' round we go?
> 
> The mind reels...


I was just thinking that. But I'm thinking maybe some of the encounters were Jacob, and some were the other guy "posing" as Jacob. But this begs the question, why would the black shirt guy pose as Jacob? Doesn't make much sense at this point.

What's in the damn guitar case? A guitar?


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Queue said:


> So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?
> 
> Jack
> Locke
> ...





Dad said:


> I don't think that was Jacob, it was the other guy putting everything in play by visiting everyone he needed to come back to the island to complete his evil plan.


That makes no sense. Why would the other guy travel around looking like Jacob? And why would he talk to YOUNG Kate to get her to come BACK to the island?

At first I thought I understood the purpose of the visits.
Kate, he basically led her into a life of crime by making sure there was no consequence for her shoplifting, ultimately leading to her coming to the island.
Sawyer, he gave him the pen so he could write the letter that started his quest for revenge, again eventually leading him to the island.

But Jack, Locke, Sayid and Hurley were much less obvious. Didn't quite understand the point of those visits...

Great episode. Will be a long wait.


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.


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## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

I'd find it very disturbing, if - in an upcoming flashback, we learn that Jacob used the alias of "Paul Bennett". 

(It took me a while to recognize Mark Pellegrino, _Dexter_ fans...)

Sorry if I overlooked this already, but what was the picture of in the cabin before it was burned?


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## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

spikedavis said:


> Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.


According to _Merriam-Webster_:

Main Entry:
cliffhang·er 
Pronunciation:
\-ˌhaŋ-ər\ 
Function:
noun 
Date:
circa 1937

1: an adventure serial or melodrama ; especially : one presented in installments each ending in suspense

2: a contest whose outcome is in doubt up to the very end ; broadly : a suspenseful situation


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Holy Crap!

There's obviously some kind of contest going on between Jacob and Fake Locke and yes, it hearkens back to the exchange between Ben and Widmore.

The question is, how did Fake Locke know that Ben had killed Locke?
In fact, Fake Locke seems to know all about Locke's life including things Locke hasn't told anyone else (the incident in the cabin).

Are we talking God vs. Satan?
(Will Ray Wise appear?)

And remember how Jacob said "I'm sorry" to Locke after his father threw him out the window?
Was he apologizing in advance for Fake Locke using him as a pawn?

And please tell me that this isn't the last we've seen of Juliet.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Wait, wait, wait!

How many of the other "apparitions" is Fake Locke responsible for?
Christian Shepard?
Claire?


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## stitch626 (Jun 26, 2002)

A couple of things crossed my mind watching the episode.

1.) What is the significance of Jacob needing to physically touch each of the people he visited? At first it seemed pretty minor (touching young Kate on the nose) but there were a few moments like the meeting with Locke, Sayid and Jack where they almost deliberately paused to emphasize Jacob having to make physical contact with who he was visiting.

2.) I could be completely wrong, but isn't the fish that Jacob caught at the beginning of the episode literally a red herring?


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## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

sonnik said:


> Sorry if I overlooked this already, but what was the picture of in the cabin before it was burned?


It was the statue.


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## rgr (Feb 21, 2003)

stitch626 said:


> 1.) What is the significance of Jacob needing to physically touch each of the people he visited? At first it seemed pretty minor (touching young Kate on the nose) but there were a few moments like the meeting with Locke, Sayid and Jack where they almost deliberately paused to emphasize Jacob having to make physical contact with who he was visiting.


I got the impression that Locke was dead on the ground until he was touched, and then came back to life. Perhaps the beginning of the loophole?


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## atrac (Feb 27, 2002)

Excellent casting of Mark Pellegrino as Jacob. I have only seen him a few times before (such as in the new "Knight Rider" -- have never seen "Dexter" though), but I thought he did an excellent job as Jacob.

Interesting though -- "what about you?" (to Ben). Apparently Jacob didn't seem to mind that he was about to get stabbed by Ben (come on, he had to know?). Then he warned Faux John that "they're coming." Can't wait to find out what that was all about!

Stupendous season finale. LOVED the black on white "Lost" logo at the end of it.

2010?!?!? Are you kidding me? Shoot me now!!!!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

MickeS said:


> But Jack, Locke, Sayid and Hurley were much less obvious. Didn't quite understand the point of those visits...


He stopped Sayid from dying or saving Nadia, either which outcome would have stopped him from going back to the island.

He convinced Hurley he was not crazy, fear of which was keeping him from going back to the island.

He brought Locke back to life, which made it possible for him to go to the island in the first place.

Maybe he didn't need to do anything with Jack, who was gonna go to the island no matter what!  He did touch him, though...


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## PKurmas (Apr 24, 2001)

MickeS said:


> Kate, he basically led her into a life of crime by making sure there was no consequence for her shoplifting, ultimately leading to her coming to the island.
> Sawyer, he gave him the pen so he could write the letter that started his quest for revenge, again eventually leading him to the island.


Wow, that's a different way of looking at it that I hadn't thought about. I assumed that Jacob's intervention with Kate was just to keep things from getting worse (e.g. an abusive father beating her for the shoplifting). And with Sawyer, if he hadn't written as much of the letter as he wrote, the uncle (or whoever it was) wouldn't have been able to read it & tell him that "what's done is done" and move on.

As for those who think that the visits were Jacob's nemesis, I'd say "oh come on"!!! That's needlessly complicating the story. The nemesis, while seeing the Black Rock arriving, wondered if Jacob brought them there. This established in my mind the belief that the contact with Jacob at some critical point in their life compelled people to reach the island. That's why they showed us the scene on the beach & then the visits!

The line I thought was most telling in the scene on the beach was Jacob's statement that "it can only end once". The nemesis protested that the visitors always bring fighting & discord, but Jacob *wants* it to end. I think that's the critical part of the story that is being set up for the last season... what "it" is, how "it" has effected everyone, and how "it" is ended. I'd bet the Incident (or Incident v2 if the bomb going off does change the path) is part of it, but not all of it.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

spikedavis said:


> Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.


I don't feel cheated at all. But, perhaps if both Season 5 and Season 6 were longer than runs of 16 episodes they may have done more at the end here. But what we got feels appropriate to me.



JYoung said:


> Wait, wait, wait!
> 
> How many of the other "apparitions" is Fake Locke responsible for?
> Christian Shepard?
> Claire?


If Jacob, or whomever, can actually create apparitions, who's to say that they can't be made in the real world.....Perhaps Claire, and her whole family were just apparations intended to move the O6 to the Island.....NOt likely but in the Lost world.......



stitch626 said:


> A couple of things crossed my mind watching the episode.
> 
> 1.) What is the significance of Jacob needing to physically touch each of the people he visited? At first it seemed pretty minor (touching young Kate on the nose) but there were a few moments like the meeting with Locke, Sayid and Jack where they almost deliberately paused to emphasize Jacob having to make physical contact with who he was visiting.
> 
> 2.) I could be completely wrong, but isn't the fish that Jacob caught at the beginning of the episode literally a red herring?


Regarding #2, perhaps you are right. But I don't think CC&DL would be that literal with it........I could see them doing it to get us to think it is a red herring and to question if that was Jacob or not, only to have it really be him.

Last night when I finally crawled into bed, I also thought again about choice. And destiny. Perhaps in some ways, the past is the past, what's done is done, is true. But if you make a life choice, you can change your destiny. Jack going from being a man of science to a man of faith.....he chose that. It didn't just happen. Sawyer seeming like he went from being a remorseful con-man to a loving, nice guy in his 3 years with Juliette.....choice.

Maybe it is not that they need to "change the past" by blowing up a bomb. Maybe they all need to make a choice to change their lives in a significant way. Maybe only then can things be made "right".

Some Losties probably still need to make the choice. I think when we see what happens after the finale, we'll find that they are back on 815 and it does crash again. I think when all of the people have made their choices, they will be back on 815, it will land, but their lives will have changed. Kate will be on the plane, but she won't be a fugitive. Jack will be on, but going to see his living Dad. Hurley will be on since he is vacationing with his lottery money, etc........

Jacob, or whomever, probably live forever and it is his/their purpose to periodically bring people to the Island to make their choices and see if they can change their lives. I think the current group's "getting back to normal" hinges on Ben and Widmore.......


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## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

Great episode. One line that keeps coming back to me is Ben complaining about Jacob talking to 'John'. "what is he, Moses?" or something to that effect. Odd because I commented to my wife that the journey to the statue reminded me of Moses leading his people out of Egypt. It's the way they were walking and the music 
in the background.

I get the feeling that was more than a throwaay line. What it means I'm not sure, but I think it's important.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

FYI, Amazon is running a sale on the Lost BluRays.....$10 off each one....

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=pe_20890_12137250_fe_exp_1/?ie=UTF8&docId=1000350041


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Why was Ilana in a hospital ward with disfiguring injuries?

How did she recognize Jacob right away, know who he was, and agree to do what he asked?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Turtleboy said:


> Why was Ilana in a hospital ward with disfiguring injuries?
> 
> How did she recognize Jacob right away, know who he was, and agree to do what he asked?


Of course, the much bigger question is who are these new people? Well, obviously, not _new _people at all! So, who are these _old _people we've never met before?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I vote for crew of the Black Rock.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Test said:


> Anyone guess that Bernard and rose are Adam and eve?


I had that thought last night after I went to bed.

What if the light at the end, wasn't time setting itself correctly, but another time jump for the people displaced. But only for those in the immediate vicinity. That way everyone but Rose and Bernard are back in the present, and they go to the cave and use it as a tomb.


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## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, the much bigger question is who are these new people? Well, obviously, not _new _people at all! So, who are these _old _people we've never met before?


They seem to be followers of Jacob that just don't live on the island. Maybe?

Also, maybe the shack, isn't the home of Jacob. That's the home of the black shirt guy. And the ash was a way to keep him confined so he couldn't cause trouble. Wasn't there a scene where someone messed up the ash? Maybe that's what let black shirt guy out

He could be the one that told Locke "help me". And Locke has inadvertently been helping him since.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

My local ABC station decided that tornadoes were more important than LOST. Rather than watch it with weather bugs, scrolls, and interruptions, I decided to wait until this morning and watch it online. So, I got up early...

I've just now finished. Good God, that was fantastic! 

Now, I'll go back and read all the posts before me. I just had to get some sort of exclamation out first. I'm trembling here (in a very masculine sort of way). 

(LOST makes me happy  .)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Queue said:


> Also, maybe the shack, isn't the home of Jacob. That's the home of the black shirt guy. And the ash was a way to keep him confined so he couldn't cause trouble. Wasn't there a scene where someone messed up the ash? Maybe that's what let black shirt guy out
> 
> He could be the one that told Locke "help me". And Locke has inadvertently been helping him since.


Yeah, it seemed clear to me (and my twisted mind) last night that Jacob used to live in the cabin, but hasn't in a long time. And that the person who has been giving people guidance from the cabin (posing as Jacob) is Jacob's old buddy.

And it would seem that Jacob's buddy is the one who keeps appearing as dead people, unless that's a trick they share. But we know Buddy does (since he's been posing as Locke). When I rewatch the series this summer, it will be interesting to keep an eye on what exactly the dead people get people to do, in light of what we know now. Good, or evil?


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## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I assume now that the man in black/fake Locke is the smoke monster? This makes sense to me seeing that smokie as Bens daughter tells Ben to follow Locke who is in-fact fake Locke.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Look at this pic again......Take away the long hair, and it looks just like Jacob's buddy.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I enjoyed that. I'm confused as hell but I enjoyed it.

Talk about a woman's perogative. Juliette sure changed her mind a lot. 

I'm a little tired of the Kate, Jack, Sawyer and Juliette love quadrilateral.


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> That was a fun time. I was actually happy to see the bomb go off. Guess if they had a "which Lostie are you?" game I'd be Jack.
> 
> Yeah, I didn't really like their appearance, and personally didn't need it. I know lots of people wanted an answer about them, so that's cool they got their answer. But it didn't add anything to the episode for me. And there were some holes there.
> 
> If the loophole is as simple as "have someone else kill him" I'm a little puzzled why it took decades/centuries to finally pull it off. I expect a little more to the loophole.


I think faux Locke is not permitted to enter Jacob's home, or maybe even without Richard's permission. This whole plan put events in motion that led to Jacob's representative guiding faux Locke into the foot.


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## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

Test said:


> Anyone guess that Bernard and rose are Adam and eve?


Guess it as the scene was going on! Had to stop and explain the Adam/Eve reference to the wife.

What is the symbolism of the white background with the black Lost logo rather than the black background with the white Lost logo?


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## scheckeNYK (Apr 28, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Holy Crap!
> 
> The question is, how did Fake Locke know that Ben had killed Locke?
> In fact, Fake Locke seems to know all about Locke's life including things Locke hasn't told anyone else (the incident in the cabin).


Maybe he didn't. He said "Are we going to talk about the elephant in the room?" and Ben replied, "You mean the fact that I killed you?" So basically Ben told him everything he needed to know.


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## flyers088 (Apr 19, 2005)

scheckeNYK said:


> I think faux Locke is not permitted to enter Jacob's home, or maybe even without Richard's permission. This whole plan put events in motion that led to Jacob's representative guiding faux Locke into the foot.


I was confused by the break in the ring around Jacob's cabin and why the 'good guys' were freaked out by it?


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Maybe older than you imply. If Richard is really "Ricardus" and speaks Latin, and the whole motif is Anicent Egyptian, how far back are we really going to go?


I've been thinking Atlantis on and off this season, given the ancient lore, island settings, and ability to relocate physically.



Mike Wells said:


> Jacob story line - not sure what to think here. As with the series - who is the good guy? It sure looks like Jacob is the good guy. What is he trying to prove, from the beginning? If Jacob is the island's protector, what happens now?


I don't know... seems kinda traditional to force it into the tradition good guy/bad guy (white shirt, black shirt) roles. At least the mystery keeps the roles ambiguous for now. Not sure where they're going with it next season. Either way it's gotten a bit too supernatural/metaphysical for my tastes.


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## Alfer (Aug 7, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> My local ABC station decided that tornadoes were more important than LOST. Rather than watch it with weather bugs, scrolls, and interruptions, I decided to wait until this morning and watch it online. So, I got up early...
> 
> I've just now finished. Good God, that was fantastic!
> 
> ...


You must live around us....our storms blew in EXACTLY when LOST was to air and they were good about doing their NUMEROUS weather updates, but right at the 45 minutes part of the show the dipshi*ts decided to spend almost 30 minutes showing weather radars of rain...ugh....so we missed that whole middle section.

I'll go online tonight to watch that part.

Overall it was a pretty cool episode...still scratching my head about some things, but still pretty good ending overall.

Agreed though...2010 is a LONG way away!


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## tgmii (Feb 21, 2002)

I cracked up at what I viewed as winks to the audience.

- Sayid telling Jack they have 2 hours to complete their mission with the bomb. Well, of course, the season finale is 2 hours! Its "24" with different Jack!

- At Sun's wedding, "I don't know, but his Korean is excellent", when they keep bashing the actor on his korean in the press.

-- or maybe I'm starting to insert my own jokes. 


Tom


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Queue said:


> So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?
> 
> Jack
> Locke
> ...


Also Sun and Jin.



Queue said:


> I wonder if the plot line of women unable to bear children on the island will be revisited in the last season.


I imagine it will be huge. The statue appeared to be hippo- or crocodile-faced. That, plus the ankh, make me think it is probably Taweret, Egyptian goddess of birth and of rebirth into the afterlife. Afterlife/purgatory theories have been vehemently dismissed by DL&CC, but I expect to see them making a resurgence now that Tawaret is in the picture. Tawaret judges souls and guides them into the afterlife, and is also a guard of the entrance to the land of the dead. I found the last paragraph of the page to which I linked particularly interesting, as it talks about Tawaret's relation to Horus (the Horus/Horace homonym has been observed in prior threads), and it also talks about "keeping Set's powers of evil fettered by a chain" - this makes me think of the ash ring around the cabin, but also the electro-magnetized chain that dragged Juliette into the drilled pit, as well as the fact that in prior seasons when the smoke monster was dragging Locke toward its hole the sound it make kept being described by people as "like a chain".

I liked the line (paraphrasing) "In my experience, it's normally the bad guys that go out of their way to tell you they're good." In my own experience, good guys generally don't say things like "Do you know how much I want to kill you?" and then put complicated wheels into motion to make it happen, so I'm going to assume that Dark-Haired-Guy probably is not Good. Since it seems the he and Jacob are in a pitched battle, I'm going to assume that Jacob is Good. I think that Dark-Haired-Guy's dark hair and dark shirt, versus Jacob's light hair and light shirt, are clues to this. It seems we are being shown that resurrected Locke is actually Dark-Haired-Guy. If he was able to take the form of Locke, then I'm going to assume that he's also responsible for the other apparitions we've seen on the island (Christian, Ben's daughter, etc), previously attributed to the smoke monster. So are Dark-Haired-Guy and the smoke monster one and the same? The smoke monster has been described as the island's "security system" Why is the island trying to get rid of Jacob? Who is Jacob, and why is he on the island?

I'm going to guess that Jacob (who lives in base of the statue, apparently) is Taweret (or a priest of Taweret), and Dark-Haired-Guy is Set (or a priest of Set). If not literally, then at least metaphorically.

Or, maybe, the battle between Jacob and Dark-Haired-Guy is a personification of a battle between theologies/Gods. Not God vs. The Devil, because that's a battle that takes place within a single religion, but rather a battle pitching egyptian religion against judeo-christian religion. The first season was very heavily laden with judeo-christian references, but recently we've been seeing another pantheon. Maybe LOST is the story of them duking it out. The losties are just pawns in the larger battle, and the Gods, since they're Gods, can't kill each other. Makes me think of Neil Gaiman's "American Gods"

Unrelated: How did the Black Rock wind up inland? I had assumed the island at one point moved to a place in the ocean where the Black Rock already was, effectively grounding it by materializing around it. But now it looks more like it is just sailing in. I guess that remains to be seen.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Did Sayid take a Hydrogen Bomb Technician correspondence course?


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I KNOW I'm in the minority here, but this is probably the first time since watching Lost that I can understand why people get turned off by all of this confusion and the story turning on a dime to something completely off the wall. If THIS whole thing...after investing 5+ years in these chararcters...is a game between Jacob and his nemesis and the Losties, the Others, and the Dharma folks are just pawns in this game, then to me, this is turning into a St. Elsewhere ending. I don't like this whole Jacob vs. Faux Locke or whatever we are calling him. This is WAY too out there, even for Lost. I am really totally confused about everything now. Why didn't the bomb go off when it was first dropped? How did Juliette survive? Is Whidmore Jacob's nemesis? How the heck will an H-bomb not destroy the whole island? My head hurts thinking about this. Maybe another rewatch will make me less confused. Too much to take in really.


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## sshedlock (May 14, 2004)

cheesesteak said:


> Did Sayid take a Hydrogen Bomb Technician correspondence course?


I thought he said everything was in Faraday's journal.


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## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

danterner said:


> Unrelated: How did the Black Rock wind up inland? I had assumed the island at one point moved to a place in the ocean where the Black Rock already was, effectively grounding it by materializing around it. But now it looks more like it is just sailing in. I guess that remains to be seen.


Global Cooling causes the sea level to drop and the island grew in size...

Awesome Episode!!

I also found it odd that Jacob intentionally touched every person he visited. It was almost as if he was predestining them to go to the island at some point.

I also think that the conversation between Jacob and Fake Locke implied that fake Locke had set the whole chain of events into motion to get ben to kill jacob...i mean everything.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> Did Sayid take a Hydrogen Bomb Technician correspondence course?


He was in charge of Iraq's WMD program. 

I think we'll find out nothing has changed: what happened, happened. In fact, I think the H bomb was necessary. If they didn't blow it up, the electromagnetic energy would have consumed the Island. If they blew it up too soon, it just would have killed everyone.


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## martylamb (Sep 29, 2005)

I kind of expect Juliet to wake up in the jungle and start experiencing premonitions.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

In the interest of consistency, she had better be naked.


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## nyy7 (Jun 3, 2002)

The series has been so good that I started worrying that there will be no way to satisfy us with a good ending next year! It will probably end with alot of questions not answered, which in and of itself is not bad. However, too many unanswered questions or contrived loose end tie ups may be something to worry about. So... join me in not watching the last season and have LOST end in the white flash of last night! ( Only kidding )
Bruce in Belle Harbor


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

Why was the giant crate brought on the airplane? If it did not ave anything in it until they put Locke's body in it why did they have it in the first place. Other than to have a dramatic reveal when the contents were shown it doesn't make any sense that they had the crate when the didn't bring anything in it to begin with.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

nyy7 said:


> The series has been so good that I started worrying that there will be no way to satisfy us with a good ending next year! It will probably end with alot of questions not answered, which in and of itself is not bad. However, too many unanswered questions or contrived loose end tie ups may be something to worry about. So... join me in not watching the last season and have LOST end in the white flash of last night! ( Only kidding )
> Bruce in Belle Harbor


I'll be happy if they tie up the MAIN questions coherently. I'm not convinced they can any longer. I think they've taken this SOOO far from the way I ever expected this to go, that it will be hard to reel it back in.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I KNOW I'm in the minority here, but this is probably the first time since watching Lost that I can understand why people get turned off by all of this confusion and the story turning on a dime to something completely off the wall. If THIS whole thing...after investing 5+ years in these chararcters...is a game between Jacob and his nemesis and the Losties, the Others, and the Dharma folks are just pawns in this game, then to me, this is turning into a St. Elsewhere ending. I don't like this whole Jacob vs. Faux Locke or whatever we are calling him. This is WAY too out there, even for Lost. I am really totally confused about everything now. Why didn't the bomb go off when it was first dropped? How did Juliette survive? Is Whidmore Jacob's nemesis? How the heck will an H-bomb not destroy the whole island? My head hurts thinking about this. Maybe another rewatch will make me less confused. Too much to take in really.


I read a similar sentiment on another forum on Lostpedia. I don't think we have all the cards yet, so we cannot still postulate what's really going on. There's still too many wild cards out there -- Widmore, Richard, Ben, Christian, and even Claire.

I think the bomb didn't go off because it didn't have enough of a violent impact when it fell to detonate. It looked like it landed in some mud. Juliet didn't survive completely just fine. She looked like she was on the brink of death with internal bleeding. She probably only had a couple of minutes left, just enough to detonate the bomb.

And as for the H-bomb, I could be mistaken, but I think someone else said in a previous thread that H-bombs really don't have as much energy as people associate with a nuclear bomb. It would be much more of a localized event than an island-wide thing. Having said that, though, I do think that the detonation of the energy of the H-bomb will be sucked in by the pocket of energy that they tapped into, so the fallout will be VERY limited.

GREAT episode. A lot to mull on for the next several months.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Rinkdog said:


> Why was the giant crate brought on the airplane? If it did not ave anything in it until they put Locke's body in it why did they have it in the first place. Other than to have a dramatic reveal when the contents were shown it doesn't make any sense that they had the crate when the didn't bring anything in it to begin with.


I was under the impression that they didn't BRING anything with them. The crate was labeled Ajira Airlines, so it was already on the airplane.


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> OK so obviously the hydrogen bomb stops the super magnatism thing, and that's exactly what happened when desmond turned the key too. I guess that is their failsafe.
> 
> So, maybe Juliette is still alive like Desmond was after he used the failsafe.


Obviously?

Not obvious by any means.

We know that Juliet set the bomb off. We have no idea what the bomb did to the magnetic thing. We'll have to wait until next season to find out.

The bomb may have:


Deactivated the magnetism phenomenon and left the island intact.
Deactivated the magnetism thing and obliterated the island.
Had no effect on the magnetism thing (the magnetic phenomenon is so awesome that it "absorbed" the bomb's energy, or something like that), and left the island intact.
Had no effect on the magnetism thing but obliterated the island. (Magnetic effect is still undersea, or moved, or somesuch).
Activated whatever device/force/whatever the "donkey wheel" controls and simply moved the island out of the harm of the blast.

I'd imagine that the writers could think of other possibilities as well.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

I might have missed some technical explanations, but is it possible that the core of the H-Bomb was enough to "destroy the energy pocket" but not destroy the island and, more importantly, all the people on it? Especially given how far down it was, and if they had enough time to get a safe distance (if there is such a thing) from the explosion? In other words, is it realistic to assume that what happened had been "the incident" all along (i.e. that Miles was right).

I think it might be 18 episodes next season - they had said after returning from the strike that they would get 48 over the final 3 seasons as originally planned, and we had 13 last season and 17 this season.

So did we really go this entire season without ever seeing Claire?

I've been planning on re-watching the entire series leading up to next season... just realized I'm going to have to average about 3 episodes a week between now and then. Wow.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

tewcewl said:


> I was under the impression that they didn't BRING anything with them. The crate was labeled Ajira Airlines, so it was already on the airplane.


I thought that Jack was bringing Locke's body back to the Island. That was what was SUPPOSED to be in the crate (and was).


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

I'm certainly in agreement that it will be tough to wait until 2010 for more Lost.

However, some people seem to be surprised by this.

The last two (or has it been 3 now) seasons of Lost have begun "mid season" in TV parlance. Specifically, January or February. 

Next January or February is 2010. Nothing I didn't already assume and expect.


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## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

I don't think Widmore is Jacob's nemisis. Just that Ben is. Ben and widmore both want to serve jacob, but have different views on how to do this. 

the loophole might be for fake locke to get one of Jacob's followers to turn on and kill him like Judas.


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## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

Plus, the core of an h-bomb would be a small fision bomb and would not be powerfull enough to destroy much.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Fish Man said:


> I'm certainly in agreement that it will be tough to wait until 2010 for more Lost.
> 
> However, some people seem to be surprised by this.
> 
> ...


People are just "high" on the finale, and I'm sure all of us would love this to continue straight through to the end starting next WEEK!!! Of course if they started this back up in the fall, we'd have all those breaks that people hated the first couple of seasons. I personally look more forward to the winter season (January-May) than the Fall season. There are less breaks and I am less busy so I can catch up easier.


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> I thought that Jack was bringing Locke's body back to the Island. That was what was SUPPOSED to be in the crate (and was).


I thought they said when they revealed that it was Locke in the crate that they found him in a coffin in the planes hold. If that is what the had in the crate all season why didn't they point out to the rest of the passengers that they guy walking around saying he was Locke was also dead in the crate? I guess it doesn't matter anyway. 2010 seems awfully far off. Maybe we should start a campaign to get this final season on the fall schedule. I for one will take my chance enduring weeks of repeats.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Rinkdog said:


> I thought they said when they revealed that it was Locke in the crate that they found him in a coffin in the planes hold. If that is what the had in the crate all season why didn't they point out to the rest of the passengers that they guy walking around saying he was Locke was also dead in the crate? I guess it doesn't matter anyway. 2010 seems awfully far off. Maybe we should start a campaign to get this final season on the fall schedule. I for one will take my chance enduring weeks of repeats.


Why is the crate such a big deal? It looked like a standard crate for checked baggage to me.


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Just a random thought. If the H-Bomb plan was successful, Black shirt guy's plan will have failed/never happened/been delayed, and Jacob will still be alive.


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

mrpope said:


> ...the loophole might be for fake locke to get one of Jacob's followers to turn on and kill him like Judas.


Could be. Could be that it specifically had to be "the leader" (or former leader, I guess). But what is it a loophole to? Some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to kill each other? Or some supernatural force preventing Jacob from being killable?


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## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau

Sent from a friend who likely got it from another board. Awesome parallels. Also, was it just me or were there definitely some strange looks shown after Ben mentioned "Moses?"


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## Fish Man (Mar 4, 2002)

mrpope said:


> Plus, the core of an h-bomb would be a small fision bomb and would not be powerfull enough to destroy much.


The core of an H-Bomb has "only" about the same yield as "Little Boy", the fission bomb detonated at Hiroshima.

H-Bombs were a magnitude increase in yield over fission bombs. But, fission bombs were still pretty damn spectacular.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I wonder if the cabin that Bernard and Rose built was the cabin that Jacob and/or not-Locke were using. Or maybe it was Jacob or not-Locke that built the cabin, and Bernard and Rose just found it.


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## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

Or the loophole is that it had to be the "leader" who killed Jacob. Since Locke was dead, technically Ben was the leader. And Titus Welliver-blacksmokemonster-fake-Locke duped the others into thinking he was the leader.

"You have no idea what I went through to get here" is hinting to me that _everything_ that has taken place on the island was orchestrated by the dark one. He duped them all - Widmore, Hawking....

There is probably some significance to Jacob visiting Jack, Kate, James, Locke, Sun & Jin pre-flight 815, and Hugo and Sayid after they returned. I don't know when he visited Ilana. And the Juliette flashback seemed out of place. So her parents got divorced?


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

jeff125va said:


> Could be. Could be that it specifically had to be "the leader" (or former leader, I guess). But what is it a loophole to? Some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to kill each other? Or some supernatural force preventing Jacob from being killable?


Maybe whatever Jacob did to save little Ben "changed" him in a way that gave him the ability to kill Jacob. This is assuming that it was in fact Jacob that healed him which to me seems pretty likely now. If true it makes that exchange between the two at the end even better. Ben complaining "what about me?" to Jacob not even aware that the man saved his life.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Queue said:


> Interesting that faux Locke created the loophole by having Richard tell alive-jumping-in-time-Locke that he had to bring everyone back to the island. So it wasn't Locke creating this destiny thing for himself, it was black shirt faux Locke creating a loophole.


Very good observation.



Queue said:


> So far who all have we seen Jacob meet? Just the main characters?
> 
> Jack
> Locke
> ...





Dad said:


> I don't think that was Jacob, it was the other guy putting everything in play by visiting everyone he needed to come back to the island to complete his evil plan. If so, he played Ben perfectly and may even have talked Ben into wiping out Dharma so all this would come to be. Jacob's dying words were: "they're coming", which is exactly what the evil (or so it seems) guy was so pissed at Jacob about in the opening of the show. If the bomb going off was the "incident" does that mean that it goes back to the begining and flight 815 still crashes and 'round and ' round we go?
> 
> The mind reels...


I think it might be significant that Jacob visited Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Locke, Jin and Sun before they had ever been to the island, but didn't visit Hurley or Sayid until they were back after there first time on the island. (eta MacThor beat me to it) I have no clue, however, what that significance might be. Someone else wondered if Jacob off the island was really black shirt guy. Maybe the older encounters were with the real Jacob, but the newer ones, with Hurley and Sayid, were with black shirt guy and part of his plan to find a loophole to an as of yet unspecified rule. I have no idea, however, why he would find it necessary to take on Jacob's form with people who've never seen Jacob. Oh, can we refer to black shirt guy as bsg, or would that confuse people because it's the shorthand for that scifi network show that died of repeated shark jumping?



stitch626 said:


> A couple of things crossed my mind watching the episode.
> 
> 1.) What is the significance of Jacob needing to physically touch each of the people he visited? At first it seemed pretty minor (touching young Kate on the nose) but there were a few moments like the meeting with Locke, Sayid and Jack where they almost deliberately paused to emphasize Jacob having to make physical contact with who he was visiting.


There was a video interview posted yesterday at ew.com with Darlton where Damon Lindelof was asked to give a cryptic message about something we could expect from the season finale. Just to be safe, I'll spoil his response:



Spoiler



He said something along the lines of "parts of the episode are touching." He then went on to joke that he didn't necessarily mean emotionally touching, which of course made me think that that's exactly what he meant. To be honest, even having watched the interview, I never even thought about the touching by Jacob until stitch pointed it out. I'd wager now, however, that we'll eventually find out the significance of Jacob having to touch the Losties while off island.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

MacThor said:


> And the Juliette flashback seemed out of place. So her parents got divorced?


Well I think that has something to do with her wanting to keep her marriage (are they married?) together with Sawyer, which led to her actions regarding Kate, Jack and so forth.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

MickeS said:


> But Jack, Locke, Sayid and Hurley were much less obvious. Didn't quite understand the point of those visits...


My crazy thoughts:

Locke -- I got the sense he reincarnated him after that fall.

Sayid -- Needed to get the woman out of the story for Sayid to be free for the lifestyle that gets him to the island.

Hurley -- had to get that guitar case to him.

Jack -- Jack needed an Apollo bar.  Actually, Jack needed to know that his dad was on his side just enough that Jack would go get his body from Australia.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> I wonder if the cabin that Bernard and Rose built was the cabin that Jacob and/or not-Locke were using. Or maybe it was Jacob or not-Locke that built the cabin, and Bernard and Rose just found it.


Horace(sp?) built the cabin.


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## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

So, when Richard hits Eloise over the head with the gun, he said he was saving their leader. Was she the leader now, instead of Widmore? What's up with that? Was she the leader from the 50s up until now, and only after she eventually leaves does Widmore become the leader?


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## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> Well I think that has something to do with her wanting to keep her marriage (are they married?) together with Sawyer, which led to her actions regarding Kate, Jack and so forth.


First, no, they were cohabitating (you evidently didn't watch the clip show, but I had always assumed that they weren't married anyway).

But I think the flashback had more to do with her having doubts about whether she and Sawyer, as opposed to Kate and Sawyer, were destined to be together, and her giving up on her and Sawyer's relationship lasting forever.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I think the Incident basically went on as it always would have. For example, we knew that Dr. Chang lost a hand somewhere, and we saw his injury in the Incident which maintains continuity with that.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> So, when Richard hits Eloise over the head with the gun...


I've noticed that people get hit over the head with guns a lot on this show. No brain damage though. It's like a nice sedative; one that works the first time every time.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> Maybe older than you imply.
> 
> If Richard is really "Ricardus" and speaks Latin, and the whole motif is Anicent Egyptian, how far back are we really going to go?


Well, Richard is "really old"
Old enough that Latin is the Native tongue for Richardus.


----------



## DancnDude (Feb 7, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Locke -- I got the sense he reincarnated him after that fall.


More like resurrected...that was my first inkling anyways.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> My crazy thoughts:
> 
> Locke -- I got the sense he reincarnated him after that fall.
> 
> ...


The line to Jack was "Sometimes we just need a little push".....


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Well, Richard is "really old"
> Old enough that Latin is the Native tongue for Richardus.


We don't know that it's his native tongue, just that the others use it because it's the language of the "enlightened". Which is what people called it after it was already a dead language, so I'm thinking possibly 18th century. Or maybe that word was a poor choice.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

My wife and I were thinking throughout the show that Locke was BSG/Esau. What threw me off the trail was when they approached the giant foot, BSG/Esau/FakeLocke said "Well that's a very nice foot Richard, but why are we here?" and seemed genuinely surprised when told that's where Jacob lives. Because BSG/Esau/FL was sitting on that very beach at the beginning of the episode.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I think the scene with Jacob when Locke falls to his (almost) death is more important than at first viewing (and others have touched upon this above). Locke appeared dead after the fall, and when Jacob touched him, he didn't just regain consciousness, he popped back to life. His eyes snapped open. I think they are trying to tell us Jacob's touch is special in some way. The other touches--Kate, James, etc--reinforce this.

BTW, the kid they got to play young Kate was *amazing *in her resemblance. Didn't we all know who she was supposed to be the second we saw her? The eyes, the face, the mouth--incredible casting find!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ETA...found this scene from "Cabin Fever", from last year.


> ORDERLY ABADDON: (interrupts) As a matter of fact, I did read your file. You survived falling eight stories out of a building. That's a miracle, Mr. Locke. Let me ask you something. Do you believe in miracles?
> 
> LOCKE: No. I don't believe in miracles.


So what happened to Locke was a "miracle". Hmm . . .


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> We don't know that it's his native tongue, just that the others use it because it's the language of the "enlightened". Which is what people called it after it was already a dead language, so I'm thinking possibly 18th century. Or maybe that word was a poor choice.


Then why call him "Richardus"?
Why not "Richard' or "Ricardo"?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

JYoung said:


> Why not "Richard' or "Ricardo"?


If it was Ricardo, he'd have some 'splaining to do.


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

I still wonder just why the Dharma people felt it necessary to sedate all passengers on the sub...


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

First off, I have put in preorders for Lost Season 1 on Blu-ray (release date June 16) and Lost Season 5 on Blu-ray (release date December 8) I'm very excited about that.

Second, why do I get this feeling that the bomb didn't go off? I mean, yes we saw a huge white flash right as Juilet hit the bomb, but this is Lost after all. What if the island was trying to protect itself or use whatever mystical powers it has to create another flash and send them traveling through time again.

So, did it turn out that that other guy, instead of Dr. Chang, was in charge of all these experiments? Dr. Chang seemed really ticked off at him running some kind of "experiments".

Also, did Jacob touch Hurley in any way? They had that guitar case between them so I don't have a clear memory of physical contact.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

JYoung said:


> Then why call him "Richardus"?
> Why not "Richard' or "Ricardo"?


That was just the name he used in Latin class.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

astrohip said:


> I think the scene with Jacob when Locke falls to his (almost) death is more important than at first viewing (and others have touched upon this above). Locke appeared dead after the fall, and when Jacob touched him, he didn't just regain consciousness, he popped back to life. His eyes snapped open. I think they are trying to tell us Jacob's touch is special in some way. The other touches--Kate, James, etc--reinforce this.
> 
> BTW, the kid they got to play young Kate was *amazing *in her resemblance. Didn't we all know who she was supposed to be the second we saw her? The eyes, the face, the mouth--incredible casting find!
> 
> ...


I'd have to look again. As soon as I saw "Ames" on the side of the store, I knew.

Also, when they cut to the scene with Jack's surgery, I immediately thought of the story that Jack had told previously about cutting the patient's dural sac. I wasn't quite sure how Jacob would figure into it at that point, but I knew that it was going to be that scene. But I'm pretty sure that when he told the story (it might have been more than once, either that or I've seen it a few times), he never mentioned anything about his father telling him to do that.

Interesting that when Sawyer told Jack the story about the con man, he didn't mention that it happened to be Locke's father. He is aware of that, correct?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

danplaysbass said:


> I still wonder just why the Dharma people felt it necessary to sedate all passengers on the sub...


I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps they would have experienced something like Sayid and Desmond did on the helicopter (in "The Constant" or the one before that). But we know that flight 815 passed into the island's vicinity without that type of effect, so who knows?


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

unicorngoddess said:


> Also, did Jacob touch Hurley in any way? They had that guitar case between them so I don't have a clear memory of physical contact.


Yes. He touched him on the upper arm just before exiting the cab.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

jeff125va said:


> I was wondering the same thing. Perhaps they would have experienced something like Sayid and Desmond did on the helicopter (in "The Constant" or the one before that). But we know that flight 815 passed into the island's vicinity without that type of effect, so who knows?


I thought that was standard operating procedure? I thought that the new recruits were sedated when they BROUGHT them TO the island, I just assumed it was the same when they leave, so they couldn't figure out where the island was.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jeff125va said:


> Could be. Could be that it specifically had to be "the leader" (or former leader, I guess). But what is it a loophole to? Some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to kill each other? Or some supernatural force preventing Jacob from being killable?


I wonder if it's something like if one kills the other, then both of them die. And if either tried to get someone else to kill the other, that person would end up killing them both. Perhaps the loophole was that since Ben killed Locke, and Not-Locke took the form of Locke, that allows Ben to kill Jacob while still allowing Not-Locke to live (perhaps only in Locke's form).

So far we haven't seen real Locke do anything as a leader, so I'm wondering if Jacob was at all involved with picking him as the leader. Richard didn't seem convinced that child Locke was destined to become the leader, but future Locke appearing followed by Jack saying, "Don't count him out yet" pushed him in the direction of thinking there was something special about Locke.

We now know that it was Not-Locke that pushed Locke in the direction of meeting Richard. And if he was the one in the cabin, then he also told John to move the island. It also appears that he was Christian, and thus told John how to turn the Donkey Wheel.

So was all of this a set-up to turn Locke into a leader that he was not supposed to be? It appears that Jacob at the very least intended Locke to have some connection with the island since he visited Locke, but maybe he wasn't supposed to be the leader. Although one would think that Jacob would have told Richard that. But maybe even he was tricked by future Locke meeting Richard, and didn't realize what was going on until it was too late.

Jacob did visit Sayid and Hurley post-island, so bringing them back to the island wasn't all Not-Locke's doing. But maybe Not-Locke acted like he didn't want the Oceanic 6 to return in order to cover up what he had planned for them when they did. Or maybe getting them off the island was so that he could "steal" some of them when they came back.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> Horace(sp?) built the cabin.


Wasn't that in a vision, though? If so, I'm not sure that's necessarily what actually happened.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

I don't think this has been brought up before, but the little boy that was with Kate, had a toy airplane with him. It looked to be the same toy airplane that was in the safe deposit box that Kate robbed, and was given to her by the only boy she ever loved.


----------



## hapdrastic (Mar 31, 2006)

PKurmas said:


> Wow, that's a different way of looking at it that I hadn't thought about. I assumed that Jacob's intervention with Kate was just to keep things from getting worse (e.g. an abusive father beating her for the shoplifting). And with Sawyer, if he hadn't written as much of the letter as he wrote, the uncle (or whoever it was) wouldn't have been able to read it & tell him that "what's done is done" and move on.


I had it in my head, after the Kate visit, that Jacob was altering the past to *prevent* them from being on 815 in the first place. Kate was on the plane as a fugitive, so I was thinking that Jacob buying the box and getting her out of trouble prevented her life from wandering down the criminal path. I thought something similar happened with the letter, as you mentioned above, and perhaps Sawyer wouldn't feel the need to go to Australia, and so wouldn't have been on the plane.

That said, I don't think that theory holds up all that well with some of the other Jacob visits, but we'll see. Probably won't pan out, but it'd be interesting!


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Part of me wonders if the bomb did go off, does correct everything, so the 815er's never come to the island, then all of next year is spent dealing with the history of the island from the viewpoint of Jacob and black shirt guy.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

astrohip said:


> BTW, the kid they got to play young Kate was *amazing *in her resemblance. Didn't we all know who she was supposed to be the second we saw her? The eyes, the face, the mouth--incredible casting find!


Or the moment we saw her best friend with the little toy airplane....


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

SocratesJohnson said:


> Maybe whatever Jacob did to save little Ben "changed" him in a way that gave him the ability to kill Jacob. This is assuming that it was in fact Jacob that healed him which to me seems pretty likely now. If true it makes that exchange between the two at the end even better. Ben complaining "what about me?" to Jacob not even aware that the man saved his life.


Maybe that's also what prevented him from seeing Jacob earlier. Perhaps he could only see Jacob now because he had turned the Donkey Wheel.

If Jacob did bring Locke back to life, perhaps he also brought Ben back to life. I wonder if there is significance to the fact that a person that Jacob brought back to life killed another that he had also brought back to life.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Also, when they cut to the scene with Jack's surgery, I immediately thought of the story that Jack had told previously about cutting the patient's dural sac. I wasn't quite sure how Jacob would figure into it at that point, but I knew that it was going to be that scene. But I'm pretty sure that when he told the story (it might have been more than once, either that or I've seen it a few times), he never mentioned anything about his father telling him to do that.


From the pilot episode:


> KATE: You don't seem afraid at all. I don't understand that.
> 
> JACK: Well, fear's sort of an odd thing. When I was in residency, my first solo procedure was a spinal surgery on a 16 year old kid, a girl. And at the end, after 13 hours, I was closing her up and I, I accidentally ripped her dural sac. Shredded the base of the spine where all the nerves come together, membrane as thin as tissue. And so it ripped open. And the nerves just spilled out of her like angel hair pasta, spinal fluid flowing out of her and I &#8230; And the terror was just so &#8230; crazy. So real. And I knew I had to deal with it. (He's crying). So I just made a choice. I'd let the fear in, let it take over, let it do its thing, but only for five seconds, that's all I was going to give it. So I started to count: One, two, three, four, five. Then it was gone. I went back to work, sewed her up and she was fine.


No mention of dad.



jeff125va said:


> Interesting that when Sawyer told Jack the story about the con man, he didn't mention that it happened to be Locke's father. He is aware of that, correct?


Yes.

From "The Brig"


> LOCKE: You're not gonna shoot anyone, James.
> 
> SAWYER: One! Two!
> 
> ...


----------



## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?


----------



## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

hefe said:


> If it was Ricardo, he'd have some 'splaining to do.


lol, awesome!


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Queue said:


> I don't think this has been brought up before, but the little boy that was with Kate, had a toy airplane with him. It looked to be the same toy airplane that was in the safe deposit box that Kate robbed, and was given to her by the only boy she ever loved.


And didn't she put the airplane and some other things (a tape?) into a lunchbox time capsule that she subsequently unearthed in the episode "Born to Run"? Was that lunchbox the same NKOTB lunchbox we saw her steal in this episode?


----------



## danplaysbass (Jul 19, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I thought that was standard operating procedure? I thought that the new recruits were sedated when they BROUGHT them TO the island, I just assumed it was the same when they leave, so they couldn't figure out where the island was.


But why? They're under the water. Its not like you could likely figure it out...


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> In the interest of consistency, she had better be naked.


Naked Juliet, quite possibly in the mud, quite possibly in the rain, running around the jungle? Bring it on!



Steveknj said:


> I'll be happy if they tie up the MAIN questions coherently. I'm not convinced they can any longer. I think they've taken this SOOO far from the way I ever expected this to go, that it will be hard to reel it back in.


Not a big fan of mystery, eh? Ever read a mystery novel, or seen a movie mystery? Good ones set up a mystery to the point where you can figure it out by the end, that's part of the fun.

But the good ones, the GREAT ones, set up the mystery for you and somewhere close to the end, pull the rug out and go in a direction you never expected, for an ending you never could have guessed.



tewcewl said:


> I read a similar sentiment on another forum on Lostpedia. I don't think we have all the cards yet, so we cannot still postulate what's really going on. There's still too many wild cards out there -- Widmore, Richard, Ben, Christian, and even Claire.


Damon Lindelof has specifically said that between this episode and the S6 season premiere, there is enough information for the viewers to get a good idea of where it's going and how it will end. We've only seen half of it.

Given that though, I'm sure it'll still be obsure to the point that most of us won't get it.



jeff125va said:


> So did we really go this entire season without ever seeing Claire?


Yup.



spikedavis said:


> Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?


I noticed this immediately, in fact I figured it was pretty obvious. It was a little bit different though, the ambient stuff (echoes, backwards sounds) wasn't there. There was certainly a similarity.

I also want to mention the fact that I, too loved Rose & Bernard. Yes, the scene was sort of tacked on as a nod to the audience to let us know what was happening with them, but the dialogue was great. Rose telling them about how they went 30 years into the past just to try and kill each other again, and Bernard saying, if we die, we die. The look in Sawyers eye let us know he wishes he was where they are.

And speaking of Sawyer, was Josh Holloway spot-on this entire episode or what? The whole sequence of Juliet falling down the hole in particular, but even in the earlier scene when he talked to Jack about why they were doing what they were doing. Fabulous work on his part.

Greg


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

danterner said:


> And didn't she put the airplane and some other things (a tape?) into a lunchbox time capsule that she subsequently unearthed in the episode "Born to Run"? Was that lunchbox the same NKOTB lunchbox we saw her steal in this episode?


Yes.

According to Lostpedia:



> Time Capsule
> 
> In the Season 1 episode "Born to Run", Kate and her once-boyfriend Tom Brennan visit a time capsule which they had buried under a tree in the middle of a cow pasture. They buried it on August 15, 1989 (8/15/89), when they were much younger.
> 
> ...


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

gchance said:


> I also want to mention the fact that I, too loved Rose & Bernard. Yes, the scene was sort of tacked on as a nod to the audience to let us know what was happening with them, but the dialogue was great. Rose telling them about how they went 30 years into the past just to try and kill each other again, and Bernard saying, if we die, we die. The look in Sawyers eye let us know he wishes he was where they are.


"It's always something with you people."


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?


Maybe Juliet is Smokey?


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> I thought that was standard operating procedure? I thought that the new recruits were sedated when they BROUGHT them TO the island, I just assumed it was the same when they leave, so they couldn't figure out where the island was.


Yeah, it's SOP, but I thought the question was about the purpose? When Juliet was about to go, they (Richard, or whoever was with him) made a vague reference to it being "a bumpy ride" or something to that effect. There may be more to it - if it were more than just nauseating turbulence, I imagine they wouldn't want to freak out the new recruits.

Regardless, since they're in a submarine, they're effectively blindfolded in regards to their ability to figure out where the island is. I can't imagine that's the purpose. Unless it's so extraordinarily long, or perhaps even short, in duration due to some time travel effect, that it would freak out the recruits as to how they got to a tropical island. Still, that wouldn't help them figure out how to get there or back, just confuse them, but in a way that they probably wouldn't want to.


----------



## Scubee (Mar 2, 2005)

spikedavis said:


> Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?


But we see a painting or mural on the wall of the temple depicting what appears to be smokey and an egyptian. Wasn't that when Ben went to be judged and we see smokey come out of the holes below the painting? I thought that hinted that smokey had been around a long time.


----------



## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

danplaysbass said:


> I still wonder just why the Dharma people felt it necessary to sedate all passengers on the sub...


I suppose it's some crazy fear that they might figure out how to get back and forth.

But yeah, kinda silly.


----------



## jeff125va (Mar 15, 2001)

hefe said:


> From the pilot episode:
> 
> No mention of dad.
> 
> ...


Cool. I've definitely seen the pilot multiple times, but I still have a feeling that it was at least referred to again at some point.

Thanks. I was pretty sure that he knew, and that if he did that he found out at that point. Still, I don't understand how people tell stories like that and don't say "and oh by the way, get this, it was LOCKE'S DAD, what are the chances of that?"


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

gchance said:


> Naked Juliet, quite possibly in the mud, quite possibly in the rain, running around the jungle? Bring it on!
> 
> Not a big fan of mystery, eh? Ever read a mystery novel, or seen a movie mystery? Good ones set up a mystery to the point where you can figure it out by the end, that's part of the fun.
> 
> ...


I happen to enjoy a good mystery. But a good mystery, at least one where the story ends and doesn't connect to the next book (in this case, the story ends at the end of next season), will tie up the major loose ends for you. It might not tie up everything, but it will tie up the major story lines. If it doesn't you get the feeling that you've just read this 400 page book and are left hanging. That's kind of where I think this is going....there are SOOOO many little plot lines going one and so many unanswered questions, and little pieces that will need to be woven into the story, that I feel that we may get to the end and not be satisfied that its all come together.

And I must say, before this episode, I didn't think that way. The one thing that bothers me, is that to me, the story has always been about the losties, whether they were fighting the Others, or trying to figure out how to get off the Island, or even all this time skipping stuff. But ultimately, this looks like a "bet" between Jacob and the other guy as to how he could kill Jacob, and if that's the ultimate plotline, then having been duped for 5+ seasons thinking this will be about something else doesn't quite sit right with me.

But I'm hoping I'm wrong and this will wind up being a whole lot more than that, and I hope it all ties together.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

spikedavis said:


> Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.


Have you ever heard of a season finale cliffhanger?


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

danterner said:


> The statue appeared to be hippo- or crocodile-faced. That, plus the ankh, make me think it is probably Taweret, Egyptian goddess of birth and of rebirth into the afterlife.


Hmm, I'll have to rewatch. I thought it was clearly Anubis.. Maybe too much SG1 in my veins.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

brianp6621 said:


> Hmm, I'll have to rewatch. I thought it was clearly Anubis.. Maybe too much SG1 in my veins.


While looking for some screencaps to post, I came across the following site that also guesses it to be Taweret and includes screencaps, so I'll just link to it instead. There's also discussion there about the possibility that it may be a different God, Sobek. I like both theories. I'm torn.



Spoiler



For what its worth, its mentioned in the comments there that the official episode recap on the ABC site refers to the statue as Taweret.


 I don't think that's canon, though.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

It was definitely not Anubis, it had a crocodile head. I'd say Taweret sounds right (but it's not supposed to have a crocodile head according to the link above?).

Anyway, found this, which probably means nothing, but could relate to "Lost"



> In the Book of the Dead, Taweret, the 'Lady of Magical Protection', was seen as a goddess who guided the dead into the afterlife. As with her double nature of protector and guardian, she was also a guard to the mountains of the west where the deceased entered the land of the dead. Many of the deities relating to birth also appear in the underworld to help with the rebirth of the souls into their life after death.


----------



## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> He stopped Sayid from dying or saving Nadia, either which outcome would have stopped him from going back to the island.
> 
> He convinced Hurley he was not crazy, fear of which was keeping him from going back to the island.
> 
> ...


And what about Sun? I can't remember what Jacob said to Sun and Jin when he visited them at their wedding. Was it something that would help convince her to return to find Jin?


----------



## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

danterner said:


> Unrelated: How did the Black Rock wind up inland? I had assumed the island at one point moved to a place in the ocean where the Black Rock already was, effectively grounding it by materializing around it. But now it looks more like it is just sailing in. I guess that remains to be seen.


Can someone explain what the Black Rock is? Is this a ship that I'm not remembering from a previous episode?


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Dnamertz said:


> Can someone explain what the Black Rock is? Is this a ship that I'm not remembering from a previous episode?


It's the big ship the losties found stranded in the middle of the island.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

jeff125va said:


> Also, when they cut to the scene with Jack's surgery, I immediately thought of the story that Jack had told previously about cutting the patient's dural sac. I wasn't quite sure how Jacob would figure into it at that point, but I knew that it was going to be that scene. But I'm pretty sure that when he told the story (it might have been more than once, either that or I've seen it a few times), he never mentioned anything about his father telling him to do that.


Says quite a bit about Jack that he left out his father pushing him to set his fear aside, doesn't it? He took the advice that his father gave him and made ti sound like it was something he came up with on his own.

They also had a line to bring that scene into our memories where Kate was talking about sewing Jack up. That's where he first told that story.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Dnamertz said:


> Can someone explain what the Black Rock is? Is this a ship that I'm not remembering from a previous episode?





MickeS said:


> It's the big ship the losties found stranded in the middle of the island.


That's where the Losties found the OLD dynamite to blow the hatch to the Swan station. It's also where Sawyer killed Locke's father.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I happen to enjoy a good mystery. But a good mystery, at least one where the story ends and doesn't connect to the next book (in this case, the story ends at the end of next season), will tie up the major loose ends for you. It might not tie up everything, but it will tie up the major story lines. If it doesn't you get the feeling that you've just read this 400 page book and are left hanging. That's kind of where I think this is going....there are SOOOO many little plot lines going one and so many unanswered questions, and little pieces that will need to be woven into the story, that I feel that we may get to the end and not be satisfied that its all come together.


Think of it more as a book SERIES, with each episode being a chapter. If Lost were a book series you'd have 6 books, each with a # of chapters. The last two books have 18 chapters.

Since it's a book SERIES, there are two sets of mysteries. There are those specific to each book (part of that book's story arc), and larger mysteries that apply to the series arc.

Greg


----------



## Dnamertz (Jan 30, 2005)

MickeS said:


> It's the big ship the losties found stranded in the middle of the island.


Was that where they found the dynamite?


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Dnamertz said:


> Can someone explain what the Black Rock is? Is this a ship that I'm not remembering from a previous episode?





MickeS said:


> It's the big ship the losties found stranded in the middle of the island.


Follow the trail of Arzt.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

5thcrewman said:


> Follow the trail of Arzt.


Couldn't have happened to a nicer dude!


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JYoung said:


> Holy Crap!
> 
> There's obviously some kind of contest going on between Jacob and Fake Locke and yes, it hearkens back to the exchange between Ben and Widmore.
> 
> ...


What I think is interesting is that Ben (and Hawking) were so intent on bringing Locke's body on Flight 316 with them. And then Ilana and her crew carried that body around the Island. And Jacob apparently told Ilana to do this. But Ben, who is the one who set this all in motion by killing Locke in the first place, is the one that's duped by the whole thing.


Rinkdog said:


> I thought they said when they revealed that it was Locke in the crate that they found him in a coffin in the planes hold. If that is what the had in the crate all season why didn't they point out to the rest of the passengers that they guy walking around saying he was Locke was also dead in the crate?


The people carrying the crate around were never in proximity to the group that Fake Locke was leading until that scene on the beach, when Fake Locke was already inside the statue. As far as we know, Ilana and her crew don't know that there is a Fake Locke.


MacThor said:


> And the Juliette flashback seemed out of place. So her parents got divorced?


The point of that was simply to show that she'd be hurt by the loss of loved ones before, and she didn't want to lose someone she loved again. So by taking steps to ensure that she'd never meet Sawyer, she wouldn't end up getting hurt by him when he left her to be with Kate.


----------



## 5thcrewman (Sep 23, 2003)

Between Jacob and Faux Locke- which one is _The Bad Twin_?


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> The people carrying the crate around were never in proximity to the group that Fake Locke was leading until that scene on the beach, when Fake Locke was already inside the statue. As far as we know, Ilana and her crew don't know that there is a Fake Locke.


They saw and interacted with Locke when he was with the survivors of the Ajira Air flight.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

gchance said:


> Think of it more as a book SERIES, with each episode being a chapter. If Lost were a book series you'd have 6 books, each with a # of chapters. The last two books have 18 chapters.
> 
> Since it's a book SERIES, there are two sets of mysteries. There are those specific to each book (part of that book's story arc), and larger mysteries that apply to the series arc.
> 
> Greg


That's how I look at it, and that is fine. But again, at the end of a series of mysteries, unless there's going to be MORE mysteries, I would expect things to be tied up.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Fleegle said:


> They saw and interacted with Locke when he was with the survivors of the Ajira Air flight.


But I don't think they'd found the body at that point. The first time we're aware of them knowing about the body is when Frank sees them with the big crate. At that point, Fake Locke was already on the main Island traipsing around with Richard and Ben.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

5thcrewman said:


> Between Jacob and Faux Locke- which one is _The Bad Twin_?


Ooh, nice!

I read it when it came out, and I remember being somewhat disappointed at how tangential it seemed to everything. As I recall, at the time it came out the name "Widmore" wasn't really being used much on Lost yet. I think it had been seen on a tube of toothpaste on the show, and on the side of a building, but that was about it. To have the novel focus on Widmores seemed like a letdown. Maybe I should go back and reread it now.


----------



## bruinfan (Jan 17, 2006)

any insight on the book jacob was reading when locke fell out of the window?


----------



## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

jkeegan said:


> Horace(sp?) built the cabin.


Horace had been dead for 12 years at the time, so someone/something else built the cabin ... hm

I guessed that it was Locke in the box when they made such a big deal about showing Frank, but not showing us.

The fade to white at the end reminded me of the Sopranos finale in reverse.

My only complaint about this is that Radzinsky didn't die. Radzinsky must die. Killing Phil is not enough.


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

bruinfan said:


> any insight on the book jacob was reading when locke fell out of the window?


It was Flannery O'Connor, Everything that Rises Must Converge. It's already on Wikipedia. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_That_Rises_Must_Converge

I read it in high school but don't remember it much.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Shakhari said:


> Horace had been dead for 12 years at the time, so someone/something else built the cabin ... hm


What do you mean Horace had been dead for 12 years at the time. Bernard and Rose were in 1977, not 2004.


Shakhari said:


> My only complaint about this is that Radzinsky didn't die. Radzinsky must die. Killing Phil is not enough.


But we know that Radzinsky doesn't die yet. He mans the hatch for many years until he commits suicide.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> Horace had been dead for 12 years at the time, so someone/something else built the cabin ... hm
> 
> I guessed that it was Locke in the box when they made such a big deal about showing Frank, but not showing us.
> 
> ...


If "whatever happened happened," then Radzinsky ends up in the hatch pressing the button every 108 minutes until he decides, some time in the mid 1990s, to shoot himself in the head.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> But I don't think they'd found the body at that point. The first time we're aware of them knowing about the body is when Frank sees them with the big crate. At that point, Fake Locke was already on the main Island traipsing around with Richard and Ben.


This would explain their change in attitude. They were basically freaking out when they saw that the dead body was the same person who had been hanging around their camp. On further reflection, however, I'm not sure if this line of thinking works. I thought that Locke had even told them that he was the one who had been in the coffin.



Queue said:


> Interesting that faux Locke created the loophole by having Richard tell alive-jumping-in-time-Locke that he had to bring everyone back to the island. So it wasn't Locke creating this destiny thing for himself, it was black shirt faux Locke creating a loophole.


I keep coming back to this and it's import. The only reason Locke left the island with a willingness to die is because of the exchange with Richard, which was set-up by faux Locke. I'm too lazy to even try thinking it all the way through, but maybe someone with a better memory for the chronology of events can clear this up: Is there any way it can be argued that faux Locke actually created a loop whereby he was the one who put the idea in Richard's head that Locke was supposed to be the leader of the Others (maybe posing as Jacob, maybe posing as Locke)? We know that the real Locke traveled back to 1954 and planted the idea in Richard's head, but Locke only thought of himself as the leader because Richard told him so. Where did the idea orginally come from? Did Ben make it up (i.e., tell Richard that Jacob told him that Locke would be the next leader when we know that Ben never really spoke to Jacob) Alternatively, is it all just circular?

I think it's important that Richard told Jack that both times he visited Locke off of the island, he failed to see anything special. We saw Locke fail the test that Richard gave him when he was a boy. I think it's very likely that Locke was never meant to lead the others, but faux Locke just made it look that way so that he would be invited into Jacob' house.

I also think that Jacob is one step ahead of bsg and it will turn out that he is not really dead. Jeff Jensen over at ew.com has an interesting theory buried in a pretty lengthy article, which I will put tags around for those who don't want to know anything about the final Harry Potter book:



Spoiler



Similar to what we find out in HP7 that Voldemort did, Jacob was giving the Losties a piece of his soul by touching them. Right after Ben stabbed Jacob, Jacob told bsg, "they're coming", which seemed to piss off bsg so much that he threw him in the fire. Jacob was referring to the other Losties, who are now on a path to all wind up on the island and resurrect Jacob (who maintained at the beginning of the episode that each time around progress is made).


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

aindik said:


> If "whatever happened happened," then Radzinsky ends up in the hatch pressing the button every 108 minutes until he decides, some time in the mid 1990s, to shoot himself in the head.


That's my thought. We've already seen "Whatever happened, happened" with Pierre Chang getting his arm crushed.


----------



## whitson77 (Nov 10, 2002)

crowfan said:


> It was Flannery O'Connor, Everything that Rises Must Converge. It's already on Wikipedia.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_That_Rises_Must_Converge
> 
> I read it in high school but don't remember it much.


It is a collection of short stories. All with religious themes of grace, and things being predetermined which fits with Jacobs MO. Grace is also usually found through pain and suffering. That's pretty central in all of her works.


----------



## sonnik (Jul 7, 2000)

I do like the theory of Jacob's nemesis being the human incarnation of the smoke monster.

This may make the conversation



> *Jacob:* Want some fish?
> 
> *Nemesis:* No thanks, I just ate.


...conversation make more sense.

For those who think the addition of these two characters puts this on a chart of "St. Elsewhere" - I'd have to say that we've really had these kind of themes all along...

Black/White (Locke with Backgammon pieces, for example). Left Eye/Right Eye...

Come to think of it, didn't Locke tell Walt that one of the two colors always go first?

Perhaps the inversed "Lost" logo at the end implies that we've left an era of "black" winning to an era where "white" wins.

Notice that the smoke monster never really bothered Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Jin, or Sun. Even when Locke interfaced with it, Locke was safe. Perhaps Jacob was readying his "people" by touching them. Locke needed to be killed by a mortal force...

I think Jacob realized what needed to happen...

Also, faux Locke was never on screen at the same time as faux Alex, and we can assume that Smokey knows how to take the form of people, as Alex mysteriously appeared. Alex's message was pretty much "Do what [faux] Locke says."


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

3D said:


> This would explain their change in attitude. They were basically freaking out when they saw that the dead body was the same person who had been hanging around their camp. On further reflection, however, I'm not sure if this line of thinking works. I thought that Locke had even told them that he was the one who had been in the coffin.


No he didn't.

Fake Locke let Ilana and Cesar think he was just a passenger but Cesar was saying that he didn't remember seeing Locke on the plane.

The only one he discussed his death status with was Ben.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

JYoung said:


> No he didn't.
> 
> Fake Locke let Ilana and Cesar think he was just a passenger but Cesar was saying that he didn't remember seeing Locke on the plane.
> 
> The only one he discussed his death status with was Ben.


Cesar: Who's that?
Locke: He's the guy who killed me.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

JYoung said:


> No he didn't.
> 
> Fake Locke let Ilana and Cesar think he was just a passenger but Cesar was saying that he didn't remember seeing Locke on the plane.
> 
> The only one he discussed his death status with was Ben.


Ok, so I'm right; the discovery of Locke's body explains their change in attitude.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

aindik said:


> Cesar: Who's that?
> Locke: He's the guy who killed me.


Ok, but Cesar was suspicious and thought that Fake Locke was lying already.
Then he got offed by Ben shortly thereafter.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

When this is all over, I hope there is a book or commentary about how the story evolved. We've been told that Jack was never meant to survive. Then what role would have taken the place of Jack? How much was figured out in the beginning? What had them scrambling? The series is fascinating, and the process of how it came to be is interesting also.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Something that kinda perplexes me... aren't the Others from Season Three the same Others that we've seen in these last few episodes, just separated by three years? (I'm referring to the "now" timeline, not the '77 group.) But they seem like very different groups. The S3 Others were a malicious group, putting our Losties in cages, kidnapping people, with members like Mr. Friendly and the Sheriff (Eps 9, S3 "Stranger in a Strange Land"). And I don't recall ever seeing Richard Alpert. The current Others are a quiet group, following like sheep wherever Richard or Locke tell them to head. And I don't see any faces in common.

Is my memory totally screwed up? What am I not seeing?


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

3D said:


> .........I also think that Jacob is one step ahead of bsg and it will turn out that he is not really dead. Jeff Jensen over at ew.com has an interesting theory buried in a pretty lengthy article, which I will put tags around for those who don't want to know anything about the final Harry Potter book:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooooh I like that idea.


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Something that kinda perplexes me... aren't the Others from Season Three the same Others that we've seen in these last few episodes, just separated by three years? (I'm referring to the "now" timeline, not the '77 group.) But they seem like very different groups. The S3 Others were a malicious group, putting our Losties in cages, kidnapping people, with members like Mr. Friendly and the Sheriff (Eps 9, S3 "Stranger in a Strange Land"). And I don't recall ever seeing Richard Alpert. The current Others are a quiet group, following like sheep wherever Richard or Locke tell them to head. And I don't see any faces in common.
> 
> Is my memory totally screwed up? What am I not seeing?


Ben's not their leader anymore.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

astrohip said:


> Something that kinda perplexes me... aren't the Others from Season Three the same Others that we've seen in these last few episodes, just separated by three years? (I'm referring to the "now" timeline, not the '77 group.) But they seem like very different groups. The S3 Others were a malicious group, putting our Losties in cages, kidnapping people, with members like Mr. Friendly and the Sheriff (Eps 9, S3 "Stranger in a Strange Land"). And I don't recall ever seeing Richard Alpert. The current Others are a quiet group, following like sheep wherever Richard or Locke tell them to head. And I don't see any faces in common.
> 
> Is my memory totally screwed up? What am I not seeing?


I think you're right. It definitely seems like the more we see of the Others, the more humanized and like Us they are. I remember in Season One, before the Others were seen on screen for the first time, my imagination ran rampant about what they could be: Were they even human? They were so mysterious. Now they don't seem very "Other" anymore at all.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Plus, aren't many of the more hostile ones dead now as a result of the events at the end of last season (the ambush at the beach camp)?


----------



## RandallW (Dec 28, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> That's where the Losties found the OLD dynamite to blow the hatch to the Swan station. It's also where Sawyer killed Locke's father.


Brings the idea to the forefront of why Locke couldn't kill him himself... Maybe if people are related to one another (ie, Jacob and BSG/Esau, Locke/Father), they aren't allowed to kill each other on the island? But this would mean that Widmore and Ben would have to be related as well. =P


----------



## unixadm (Jan 1, 2001)

Fleegle said:


> That's my thought. We've already seen "Whatever happened, happened" with Pierre Chang getting his arm crushed.


Not exactly....yes, he got his arm crushed....and that was part of the original timeline. But that would have happened regardless of the Losties....that was caused by Redinsky's insistance on continued drilling....nothing to do with the bomb or the Losties.

Now....the bomb was detonated....that may change things from that point on.

If whatever happened, happened, then the very original timeline wouldn't have the Losties since they didn't exist yet...(or were little kids back then)...It wasn't until after 2008 when they started time traveling where they went back to 1977...every interaction after they travelled would have changed some event even if ever so slightly.....so unless you believe that everyone's life from now until eternity is pre-destined and that there are simultaneous timelines in life, there was no way that the Losties could have been in 1977 the FIRST time all of this happened......so I think that they did indeed change things by traveling back and doing what they did.....we shall see


----------



## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

unixadm said:


> Not exactly....yes, he got his arm crushed....and that was part of the original timeline. But that would have happened regardless of the Losties....that was caused by Redinsky's insistance on continued drilling....nothing to do with the bomb or the Losties.


Chang wouldn't have even been there though. He was not supposed to be at that station, as evidenced by radzinski's saying such.


----------



## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

astrohip said:


> I think the scene with Jacob when Locke falls to his (almost) death is more important than at first viewing (and others have touched upon this above). Locke appeared dead after the fall, and when Jacob touched him, he didn't just regain consciousness, he popped back to life. His eyes snapped open. I think they are trying to tell us Jacob's touch is special in some way. The other touches--Kate, James, etc--reinforce this.


I don't know, I took it as Jacob just kept Locke from dying thereby putting him on his path of being bitter about being paralyzed which ultimately led him to the island.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

We never actually saw Richard watching the Losties die, as he indicated he had last week (I think he actually said that he saw them die 30 years ago). Is this evidence of things changing?


----------



## aintnosin (Jun 25, 2003)

3D said:


> We never actually saw Richard watching the Losties die, as he indicated he had last week (I think he actually said that he saw them die 30 years ago). Is this evidence of things changing?


He probably saw the H-bomb go off. Not too big a leap to assume that anyone nearby is toast.

Of course, if he was witness to the explosion, that means detonating Jughead was part of the original time line.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

aintnosin said:


> He probably saw the H-bomb go off. Not too big a leap to assume that anyone nearby is toast.
> 
> Of course, if he was witness to the explosion, that means detonating Jughead was part of the original time line.


I'm assuming the blast/event/incident is what took the statue down, but we'll see...


----------



## unicorngoddess (Nov 20, 2005)

gchance said:


> I noticed this immediately, in fact I figured it was pretty obvious. It was a little bit different though, the ambient stuff (echoes, backwards sounds) wasn't there. There was certainly a similarity.


Most definately. In fact, it was so similar that I was sure whatever was going to happen with the drillng and the bomb was going to create the smoke monster and we would see him rise out of that hole and try to kill everyone.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

unixadm said:


> Not exactly....yes, he got his arm crushed....and that was part of the original timeline. But that would have happened regardless of the Losties....that was caused by Redinsky's insistance on continued drilling....nothing to do with the bomb or the Losties.
> 
> Now....the bomb was detonated....that may change things from that point on.
> 
> If whatever happened, happened, then the very original timeline wouldn't have the Losties since they didn't exist yet...(or were little kids back then)...It wasn't until after 2008 when they started time traveling where they went back to 1977...every interaction after they travelled would have changed some event even if ever so slightly.....so unless you believe that everyone's life from now until eternity is pre-destined and that there are simultaneous timelines in life, there was no way that the Losties could have been in 1977 the FIRST time all of this happened......so I think that they did indeed change things by traveling back and doing what they did.....we shall see


You're thinking too chronologically. The adult versions of the Losties were always in 1977 as part of the Dharma Initiative. In 1977, they "blipped" into existence from the time jumping. In a linear fashion, the Lostie's lives ran along with chronological time up until the time jumping started, then settled back into 1977. That's teh entire point of "Whatever happened, happened".


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

As to the Smoke Monster, I think he is the guy talking to Jacob in the opening scene. I also think that it was him, not Jacob, in the cabin that asked Locke to help him.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

jeff125va said:


> Also, when they cut to the scene with Jack's surgery, I immediately thought of the story that Jack had told previously about cutting the patient's dural sac. I wasn't quite sure how Jacob would figure into it at that point, but I knew that it was going to be that scene. But I'm pretty sure that when he told the story (it might have been more than once, either that or I've seen it a few times), he never mentioned anything about his father telling him to do that.


Yeah... but.... I mean there's this cute girl there that he's trying to sweet talk into stitching him up.. is he really going to tell the part of the story where he was completely embarrassed by his Dad in front of his whole team? No. He's going to tell her that he counted to five, conquered his fear, and saved the day.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

(still on post #150.. sorry for any smeeks)

It just occurred to me that Not-Locke probably impersonated Ben's Mom too, to get him to leave the compound and come see Richard.. Richard asks the kid if he sees dead people, Ben says yes convincingly, and Richard believes Ben is special (when in fact he is not). That helps set in motion everything that led Ben to be trusted by Richard enough that Richard would lead him to the statue and let him in to see Richard (with Not-Locke's insistence).


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> Wasn't that in a vision, though? If so, I'm not sure that's necessarily what actually happened.


It was a vision of Locke's, but it lead to Locke knowing to search the bodies in the Dharma grave, where he found a map (in Horace's pocket) that showed where the cabin was.

Plus, Locke's vision of Horace saying "Hello there!" sounded just like when we actually saw him.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

spikedavis said:


> Someone in another forum brought up the fact that "The Incident" sounded like the Smoke Monster-complete with "chains". Makes sense-The Incident created Smokey?


There's an ancient hieroglyphic-ish picture of smokey in the temple - smokey's been around a long time.


----------



## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

whitson77 said:


> Grace is also usually found through pain and suffering.


Maybe I was just remembering high school itself.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> (still on post #150.. sorry for any smeeks)
> 
> It just occurred to me that Not-Locke probably impersonated Ben's Mom too, to get him to leave the compound and come see Richard.. Richard asks the kid if he sees dead people, Ben says yes convincingly, and Richard believes Ben is special (when in fact he is not). That helps set in motion everything that led Ben to be trusted by Richard enough that Richard would lead him to the statue and let him in to see Richard (with Not-Locke's insistence).


Yes, another dead person that Smokey has impersonated. But she didn't die on the island.

A thought that occurred to me: Could JACOB have been appearing to Hurley as the dead people? He seemed to go out of his way to tell him that seeing his dead friends was a good thing. Perhaps he was also Dave...


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fleegle said:


> Yes, another dead person that Smokey has impersonated. But she didn't die on the island.
> 
> A thought that occurred to me: Could JACOB have been appearing to Hurley as the dead people? He seemed to go out of his way to tell him that seeing his dead friends was a good thing. Perhaps he was also Dave...


We've seen Jacob appearing to several people, but not disguising himself. For some reason, I get the impression that he is more straightforward, not the kind to deceive that way. Seems more in line with Titus from what we know so far.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Why do you people keep calling the unknown dude "Titus"? Was there a name given away that I missed?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Fleegle said:


> Why do you people keep calling the unknown dude "Titus"? Was there a name given away that I missed?


I like Esau, personally. (No, there wasn't a name given.)


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

On Lostpedia under the catagory of "Jacob's Enemy" it says that in the 1800s,



> Jacob's enemy was on the Island with Jacob when a ship appeared on the horizon. The man approached Jacob, who was sitting on the beach near the base of the statue. He claimed Jacob had brought the ship to the Island, saying that this would only end in fighting, destruction and corruption as it always had, a view with which Jacob disagreed. Before walking away, the man claimed that he wanted to kill Jacob and promised he would one day find a "loophole" allowing him to do so.


 it then shows the following picture










It says that that scene happened in The Incident, but I have no memory of it whatsoever. Did I miss something?


----------



## jradford (Dec 28, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> On Lostpedia under the catagory of "Jacob's Enemy" it says that in the 1800s,
> 
> it then shows the following picture
> 
> ...


That's the opening scene from last night.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

jradford said:


> I like Esau, personally. (No, there wasn't a name given.)


Ah, I just found that the actor's name it Titus!

What does Esau refer to?


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Turtleboy said:


> On Lostpedia under the catagory of "Jacob's Enemy" it says that in the 1800s,
> 
> it then shows the following picture
> 
> ...





jradford said:


> That's the opening scene from last night.


Right. That happened immediately after the "Previously, on Lost" segment, which was unexpectedly short... Maybe you fast-forwarded through it thinking it was was still part of the Previously On segment?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

What confused me the most about this episode is that Richard seemed clueless. So far we've seen 3 immortal, or veryyy old people, and he's one of them. Did he know that Ben wasn't talking to Jacob? Why did he let them follow Ben? I find it hard to believe that Richard is a bad guy, or an ally of BSG. Doesn't he talk to Jacob himself? Not much good as an advisor.



jeff125va said:


> Could be. Could be that it specifically had to be "the leader" (or former leader, I guess). But what is it a loophole to? Some sort of "gentlemen's agreement" not to kill each other? Or some supernatural force preventing Jacob from being killable?


In the beginning, BSG said he wanted to kill Jacob. I got the impression that Jacob could at any time kill HIM. God could always wipe out Satan, but he lets him go to give us free will. So Jacob gives him a list of conditions that have to be met to kill him. Probably it has to be one of his own people--someone close to him, and Ben qualifies because he has been trying to serve him all his life. And Jacob saved his life. But Jacob keeps Ben at arms length and waits for him to become more compassionate, which he doesn't and then it happens just as Jacob knew all along it would. I don't think he was surprised that Ben killed him. Either he's not really dead, spiritually, or it's part of his plan. If BSG gets all gleefull and thinks he's won, I think he'll be sorry.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jradford said:


> That's the opening scene from last night.


Wow, I can't believe I missed that! I started watching with young Kate in the store. Everything makes a little bit more sense now.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fleegle said:


> Ah, I just found that the actor's name it Titus!
> 
> What does Esau refer to?


Esau is the Biblical brother of Jacob.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

Fleegle said:


> Ah, I just found that the actor's name it Titus!
> 
> What does Esau refer to?


Not a big bible reader I take it?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Fleegle said:


> Why do you people keep calling the unknown dude "Titus"? Was there a name given away that I missed?


It's as good as any.

(It's the actor's name. )


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

hefe said:


> Esau is the Biblical brother of Jacob.





Turtleboy said:


> Not a big bible reader I take it?


Heh. Pretty far from a big bible reader.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> What confused me the most about this episode is that Richard seemed clueless. So far we've seen 3 immortal, or veryyy old people, and he's one of them. Did he know that Ben wasn't talking to Jacob? Why did he let them follow Ben? I find it hard to believe that Richard is a bad guy, or an ally of BSG. Doesn't he talk to Jacob himself? Not much good as an advisor.
> 
> In the beginning, BSG said he wanted to kill Jacob. I got the impression that Jacob could at any time kill HIM. God could always wipe out Satan, but he lets him go to give us free will. So Jacob gives him a list of conditions that have to be met to kill him. Probably it has to be one of his own people--someone close to him, and Ben qualifies because he has been trying to serve him all his life. And Jacob saved his life. But Jacob keeps Ben at arms length and waits for him to become more compassionate, which he doesn't and then it happens just as Jacob knew all along it would. I don't think he was surprised that Ben killed him. Either he's not really dead, spiritually, or it's part of his plan. If BSG gets all gleefull and thinks he's won, I think he'll be sorry.


As for the Clueless Richard and how Richard didn't know that Jacob wasn't talking to Richard, Jacob WAS communicating with Ben through Richard. When Ben was going on his "Why not me" rant just before he killed Jacob, he mentioned Jacob using Richard to send him notes.

So Jacob WAS communicating with Ben indirectly, using Richard as a proxy.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

I had heard in the podcast and in interviews with Matthew Fox and Michael Emerson that the finale was going to be a huge cliffhanger and that people would feel frustrated like at the end of season 1. I don't feel like that though; I think most fans are used to the cliffhanger MO at this point. I'm actually glad they've given us so much to chew on and mull over during the break. This is the last long break, after all!

Some first impressions of the finale:

Phil should have the got the beatdown that Sawyer gave to Jack - or better yet Radzinsky. And I was not satisfied with Phil's death. I thought it was too quick and kind of cheesy. It reminded me of Trinity's death in Matrix: Revolutions. Anything that reminds me of Revolutions can't be good.

Juliet's death was sad - even though I never really liked her. I was afraid it was going to get gruesome; like the chains would rip her in half, or her arm would break off a-la Montand. I felt sorry for Sawyer. I do think Juliet is dead.

Speaking of arms, I was also a little disappointed in what happened to Chang. His arm was crushed by scaffolding. Sure, it was related to "The Incident", but it might as well have been a mundane construction accident. I thought he was going to touch exotic matter and have his arm blink out of existence or something.

We still did not get an explanation for Miles' ability to speak to the dead - or Hurley's either; not to mention what's in the guitar case.

Why does Jacob live in a statue? And if he's got the statue to live in, why did he ever need the cabin? Illana's "good guys" clearly thought they'd find him there, so he must have used it at some point...

Rose and Bernard. That whole bit was lame, IMO. I sure hope they have a purpose in the story and that that purpose is NOT to be Adam & Eve. 

But speaking of Adam and Eve; now that we're getting some more details about the Black/White roles on the show, the black and white stones that Jack found on the skeletons seem to have some significance - other than identifying who Adam and Eve are.

It seems that the statue was around at least as recently as when the Black Rock arrived on the Island. So what brought the statue down? I do not think it was the H-bomb because if it did that much damage the Dharma facilities would have been affected. So what brought down the statue and when... and was it intentional?

The Black Rock sailing to the Island would seem to shoot down my favorite theory of how it ended up in the middle of the jungle. I was a believer in the idea that the Island appeared or materialized under the Black Rock after someone turned the Donkey Wheel, but it does not look that way. So how did it get into the jungle? But maybe that ship wasn't the Black Rock...


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I had heard in the podcast and in interviews with Matthew Fox and Michael Emerson that the finale was going to be a huge cliffhanger and that people would feel frustrated like at the end of season 1. I don't feel like that though; I think most fans are used to the cliffhanger MO at this point. I'm actually glad they've given us so much to chew on and mull over during the break. This is the last long break, after all!
> 
> Some first impressions of the finale:
> 
> ...


See my previous posts regarding the cabin. I don't think that was Jacob's cabin. I believe that it was the unnamed man's cabin. The one was searching for a loophole to kill Jacob. The black ash was some kind of barrier to keep him contained.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> See my previous posts regarding the cabin. I don't think that was Jacob's cabin. I believe that it was the unnamed man's cabin. The one was searching for a loophole to kill Jacob. The black ash was some kind of barrier to keep him contained.


I don't think it was just Anti-Jacob's cabin, though he was the most recent inhabitant. I believe Jacob was there at some point - if not, why did Illana expect to find Jacob there, and why did she say he had not been there for a long time (implying that he had been there at one time).


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I don't know about the cabin and smokey angles. The ash circle was intact when Locke and Ben went there, wasn't it? And smokey had been making appearances before and after that. So how could it be Esau/Titus/Nemesis/BSG? 

In fact, Ben summoned smokey when he needed it. Hmm. Much to be learned still.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

At the very beginning of the episode we see Jacob literally weaving a tapestry. That's exactly what we find out that he and blackshirtguy have been doing with the Losties' lives..


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

(oh, and I was guessing that Hurley created the ash break when he saw the cabin)


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

flyers088 said:


> Guess it as the scene was going on! Had to stop and explain the Adam/Eve reference to the wife.
> 
> What is the symbolism of the white background with the black Lost logo rather than the black background with the white Lost logo?


Trying to catch up on reading this thread, but I needed to comment.
The white screen clearly depicts the moment the nuke detonates, plus the black logo fading in plays along the whole black / white symbology, as well as a reversal from the regular --- possibly meaning that things reversed, or change in that moment.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> What confused me the most about this episode is that Richard seemed clueless. So far we've seen 3 immortal, or veryyy old people, and he's one of them. Did he know that Ben wasn't talking to Jacob? Why did he let them follow Ben? I find it hard to believe that Richard is a bad guy, or an ally of BSG. Doesn't he talk to Jacob himself? Not much good as an advisor.


I find it interesting. Once Ben was the Guy Who Knew Stuff, then the mysteries went above his pay grade and he became increasingly lost. (No pun intended, but hey, why not?) Then Richard was the Guy Who Knew Stuff, but now the mysteries are going above HIS pay grade. So now it's Jacob...is that where the buck stops?


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

latrobe7 said:


> I don't think it was just Anti-Jacob's cabin, though he was the most recent inhabitant. I believe Jacob was there at some point - if not, why did Illana expect to find Jacob there, and why did she say he had not been there for a long time (implying that he had been there at one time).


Did she actually say that she expected _JACOB_ to be in the cabin? She seemed fairly scared when she saw the picture of the statue. Why would she be scared of jacob returning to the statue?


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Fleegle said:


> Did she actually say that she expected _JACOB_ to be in the cabin? She seemed fairly scared when she saw the picture of the statue. Why would she be scared of jacob returning to the statue?


I think she expected Jacob. When she got to the cabin she was surprised and seemed sad that "someone else" had been living in it.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> Did she actually say that she expected _JACOB_ to be in the cabin? She seemed fairly scared when she saw the picture of the statue. Why would she be scared of jacob returning to the statue?


She said _he_ was not here and that _someone else_ had been using it. If _he_ is not Jacob, who then? If you want that to be Anti-Jacob, then who is _someone else_?

I don't know what Illana and Bram made of the statue-needlepoint - but I don't think their reaction speaks to Jacob's relationship to the cabin, one way or the other.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I think the key is "Locke" bringing Ben into visit Jacob.

Richard was against it, he said you aren't allowed to do that. Only the leader can see Jacob.

But the fact is that that isn't Locke, and Locke is dead. So either Ben is still the leader, or there is no leader.

Maybe the loophole has something to do with that.

Probably a smeek, but my two cents.

-smak-


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> I think we'll find out nothing has changed: what happened, happened. In fact, I think the H bomb was necessary. If they didn't blow it up, the electromagnetic energy would have consumed the Island. If they blew it up too soon, it just would have killed everyone.


I've been saying that for weeks! I remain an Apostle of the Faraday Postulate.



Queue said:


> Part of me wonders if the bomb did go off, does correct everything, so the 815er's never come to the island, then all of next year is spent dealing with the history of the island from the viewpoint of Jacob and black shirt guy.


I think I would have thought that was impossible even as recently as half a season ago. Right now, I can think of things I could write for a season of "everything up till now was undone" that would fit.

Sawyer and Jack's fight (or more specifically some of the things said during it) made me think, Hey Jack, Locke would be proud, you're a man of faith now.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

So, um, Kate and Juliette are sisters?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> So, um, Kate and Juliette are sisters?


No, Juliet's sister is Rachel.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

When the blonde girl (Kate's sister) ran away from Kate because mom and dad were getting a divorce, they called her Juliette.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> When the blonde girl (Kate's sister) ran away from Kate because mom and dad were getting a divorce, they called her Juliette.


Huh? You mean when Juliet ran away from Mom, Dad and Rachel?

Kate's flashback:









Juliet's flashback:
Juliet running:









Juliet's sister Rachel:


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Dnamertz said:


> And what about Sun? I can't remember what Jacob said to Sun and Jin when he visited them at their wedding. Was it something that would help convince her to return to find Jin?


I think it was something about them staying together, and I think maybe his purpose in visiting them was to ensure that Sun didn't leave Jin just before getting on flight 815.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

jkeegan said:


> (oh, and I was guessing that Hurley created the ash break when he saw the cabin)


I figured as much too. However, if that's the case, and if we go by the assumption that the ash was a barrier to keep bsg in, then the theory that bsg was taking people's form goes out the windows, since we saw many ghosts in the previous seasons (including Christian in season 1)


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I find it interesting. Once Ben was the Guy Who Knew Stuff, then the mysteries went above his pay grade and he became increasingly lost. (No pun intended, but hey, why not?) Then Richard was the Guy Who Knew Stuff, but now the mysteries are going above HIS pay grade. So now it's Jacob...is that where the buck stops?


So you're saying that both Ben and Ricardus are middle management?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JYoung said:


> So you're saying that both Ben and Ricardus are middle management?


Well, it's been clear for a while now that Ben is out of his league, and Richard is starting to get that same baffled "WTF is going on?!?" look on his face...

So I guess the question is are Ben and Richard middle management, or lower management?


----------



## newswatcher (Apr 9, 2004)

Food for thought:

The last scene of the woman's eye (Kate's or Juliet's, I don't know), when paused, clearly shows a person looking down at her with the jungle in the background. Maybe back in 2008?

Remember Jacob's last words:
"They are coming..."

Could mean those from 1977 are coming back to the current time?

From dictionary.com:
*"Loophole*

1464, from M.E. loupe "opening in a wall" (c.1300), perhaps related to M.Du. lupen "to watch, peer;" + hole. Figurative sense of "outlet, means of escape" is from 1663."

Could it be that the time shifts were purposely inserted so that a 'loophole' in that time could allow the faux Locke to gain access to Jacob and have him killed?

Look at the eye, the future is there...

Heck, I don't know...will wait for eight months I guess...

BTW, _*never*_ do this:


----------



## bdlucas (Feb 15, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Dead Locke must be the guy who was with Jacob when the Black Rock arrived.


Are you sure that was the Black Rock? The tapestry Jacob was weaving had a Greek motto on it, and the statue looked in good condition, so I assumed that scene took place in ancient times. Their clothing seemed ancient as well, I thought. Not sure however if the style of the ship was ancient...

So anyone know what the Greek on the tapestry said?

So is this whole thing about a couple god-like creatures using humans as pawns in their struggle against each other?

ETA: from answers.yahoo.com (!):

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090514114602AAQZJyO



> The greek sentence is from the Odissey, "may gods grant what you desire in you heart".
> The correct spelling is ΘΕΟΙ ΤΟΣΑ ΔΟΙΕΝ ΟΣΑ ΦΡΕΣΙ ΣΗΣΙ ΜΕΝΟΙΝΑΣ


----------



## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I'd have to go back to the "cabin" episodes to make sure, but I thought I remembered distinctly someone, probably Ben, deliberately breaking the ash barrier. But maybe I'm thinking of a scene from Supernatural.

BTW, if the Ash barrier was recently broken, allowing BSG to escape, he couldn't be Smokey. Or masquerading as Jacob off-island.

I'm going with the previous theory in this thread that Jacob, by touching each of the castaways, was transferring part of his essence to them.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

bdlucas said:


> Are you sure that was the Black Rock? The tapestry Jacob was weaving had a Greek motto on it, and the statue looked in good condition, so I assumed that scene took place in ancient times. Their clothing seemed ancient as well, I thought. Not sure however if the style of the ship was ancient...


Just an assumption on my part. I'm not a nautical expert, but the ship looked modern to me, and certainly not Greek (Greek ships, at least in ancient art, look pretty distinctive).


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

I am only on page 4 so far, but have to say a few things before I forget.
We have seen white smoke before, at least once. It was during the funeral on the beach with somebody first or second season.
Fake-Locke my Anti-Jacob.



JYoung said:


> Wait, wait, wait!
> 
> How many of the other "apparitions" is Fake Locke responsible for?
> Christian Shepard?
> Claire?


Those could be the smoke monster. Of course if Anti-Jacob is the smoke monster...
It is possible that the smoke monster is a neutral third party.



BrandonRe said:


> Great episode. One line that keeps coming back to me is Ben complaining about Jacob talking to 'John'. "what is he, Moses?" or something to that effect. Odd because I commented to my wife that the journey to the statue reminded me of Moses leading his people out of Egypt. It's the way they were walking and the music
> in the background.
> 
> I get the feeling that was more than a throwaay line. What it means I'm not sure, but I think it's important.


Interesting also that they were carrying the crate like one would carry the Ark of the Covenant.



Queue said:


> They seem to be followers of Jacob that just don't live on the island. Maybe?
> 
> Also, maybe the shack, isn't the home of Jacob. That's the home of the black shirt guy. And the ash was a way to keep him confined so he couldn't cause trouble. Wasn't there a scene where someone messed up the ash? Maybe that's what let black shirt guy out
> 
> He could be the one that told Locke "help me". And Locke has inadvertently been helping him since.


That is what I was thinking. They were ready to fight Anti-Jacob. It was Anti-Jacob that moved stuff around when Ben and Locke visited them.



tgrim1 said:


> I assume now that the man in black/fake Locke is the smoke monster? This makes sense to me seeing that smokie as Bens daughter tells Ben to follow Locke who is in-fact fake Locke.


I sort of addressed this already, but the more I think about it, the more I think the smoke monster is Anti-Jacob. Perhaps Jacob is the Egyptian God we see in some pictures with the Smoke Monster.



flyers088 said:


> Guess it as the scene was going on! Had to stop and explain the Adam/Eve reference to the wife.
> 
> What is the symbolism of the white background with the black Lost logo rather than the black background with the white Lost logo?


Interesting idea. Perhaps next season will be like that as Anti-Jacob now controls the island. Plays the black and white thing really well.

Another thought. In the Bible, Jacob has a brother, Esau. Jacob had his ladder. Jacob had a son, Joseph, so if we see anyone with a multi-color coat, get ready for music.  The Wiki says of the Bible Jacob: "the Jewish commentators interpret many elements of his story as being symbolic of the future difficulties and struggles the Jewish people would undergo"

Okay, I need to feed the baby then onto page 5 and see if any more thoughts come to mind.

Oh before I feed baby. I think the Jacob we see in the Flashbacks is Jacob, not Anti-Jacob. Why would Anti-Jacob need to look like Jacob to everyone? That Jacob brought the Black Rock there suggests he brought others, and Ilana knew where to go with Locke's body after the cabin, so she knows about Jacob and where he is at... Odd that Anti-Jacob wasn't sure where Jacob would be and needed Richard to take him there, unless that is part of the loophole. My guess is that Jacob sacrificed himself for something.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

What does BSG stand for? I didn't think there was a crossover with Battle Star Galactica.


----------



## MacThor (Feb 7, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> At the very beginning of the episode we see Jacob literally weaving a tapestry. That's exactly what we find out that he and blackshirtguy have been doing with the Losties' lives..


Jacob: "It takes a *long* time when you make the thread yourself. But I suppose that's the point."

Also a reference to string theory perhaps?


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

You know, slightly off-topic, but I feel like BSG should be NSG. I rewatched and in the opening scene with the sun light on the shirt, it looks more Navy to me than Black.


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

jlb said:


> You know, slightly off-topic, but I feel like BSG should be NSG. I rewatched and in the opening scene with the sun light on the shirt, it looks more Navy to me than Black.


Oh! BSG = Black Shirt Guy? Thanks. I was wondering why people were calling him Battlestar Galactica.


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I was wondering that too. If anyone is looking for a label, his semi-official title is "Jacob's Enemy".

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob's_enemy
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob's_enemy/Theories


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob's_enemy/Theories

my head hurts from reading that......


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

bdlucas said:


> So anyone know what the Greek on the tapestry said?
> 
> ETA: from answers.yahoo.com (!):
> 
> ...


And it looked to me like the graphic on the tapestry was a god at the top with hands reaching out touching all of the people who are worshiping him. So there's another possible interpretation of why Jacob touched everyone in the flashbacks.


----------



## speedcouch (Oct 23, 2003)

jlb said:


> I liked how when our Jack decided to fight, he went Jack (Bauer).....


I kept saying to my husband "those doctors sure figured out how to shoot guns all of a sudden (meaning Juliette and Jack)..." though Jack was sure missing a lot when he first started shooting, but Juliette was a real bad-ass from the time the group pulled up to back-up Jack.

Best line of the night to me was Bernard and Rose saying "There's always something with you people."  Ain't that the truth.

Wow! Really intense scene between Sawyer and Juliette before they had to let her go down the shaft. I'd never have believed those two would be together and obviously have such strong feelings for each other. I guess opposites DO attract!

So they show won't be back until Jan 2010??? What a rip...:down::down::down:

Cheryl


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

unixadm said:


> ...Now....the bomb was detonated....that may change things from that point on....


I saw NO evidence the bomb ever detonated...all we saw was a white flash at the end of the episode.


----------



## Charon2 (Nov 1, 2001)

My wife saw how Sawyer was looking at Kate and thought that may be trouble during the Rose/Bernard scene as well... somebody noted something like that at one point in the threads.
I also was confused by calling Anti-Jacob/Jacob's Enemy as BSG. Glad to see I wasn't the only one... though I did figure it out fairly quick it struck me as odd and was about to put up a vote to call him something else.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Bierboy said:


> I saw NO evidence the bomb ever detonated...all we saw was a white flash at the end of the episode.


Well, that _is _evidence that the bomb detonated...not conclusive evidence, but strong evidence. It's certainly what we're meant to think!


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

speedcouch said:


> Juliette was a real bad-ass from the time the group pulled up to back-up Jack.


Juliet isn't just a doctor. She's an Other.


----------



## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

I loved this episode. It was rich with great mythology and great character moments. I liked all the callbacks to season 1 flashbacks (eg. Kate's New Kids on the Block lunchbox and toy plane, Jack's count to 5 story, Sawyer's letter). I'll be bummed if Juliet is no longer on the show but if this was her end, I'm glad it wasn't just a random shooting or something.

All season long I have felt things are coming together, and I felt no different in this episode. While we are formally introduced to Jacob and this new conflict in the finale, it's really been there all along. For the viewers that think this Jacob and Man in Black Shirt thing has just been added to the show recently, I remind you of this scene in the Pilot:

Locke is describing Backgammon to Walt:

LOCKE: Backgammon is the oldest game in the world. Archeologists found sets when they excavated the ruins of ancient Mesopotamia. Five thousand years old. That's older than Jesus Christ.
WALT: Did they have dice and stuff?
LOCKE: [nods] Mhhm. But theirs weren't made of plastic. Their dice were made of bones.
WALT: Cool.
LOCKE: Two players. Two sides. One is light  one is dark. Walt, do you want to know a secret?

I knew the show was setting up a big conflict but I didn't really know what it would be (and I still don't know exactly). But as soon as I saw Man in White Shirt and Man in Black Shirt sitting on the beach, I was reminded of this scene from the Pilot.

Anyway, great finale and I can't wait for the final season. I think it's going to be great.


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Peter000 said:


> I thought I remembered distinctly someone, probably Ben, deliberately breaking the ash barrier.


You know, I had a very distinct memory of that happening too, but last night I skimmed through "Man Behind the Curtain" (where Ben takes Locke to the cabin), "Beginning of the End" (Hurley visits the cabin) and "Cabin Fever" (Ben, Locke and Hurly), but none of them showed anything about the ash being broken.


----------



## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

brermike said:


> I loved this episode. It was rich with great mythology and great character moments. I liked all the callbacks to season 1 flashbacks (eg. Kate's New Kids on the Block lunchbox and toy plane, Jack's count to 5 story, Sawyer's letter). I'll be bummed if Juliet is no longer on the show but if this was her end, I'm glad it wasn't just a random shooting or something.
> 
> All season long I have felt things are coming together, and I felt no different in this episode. While we are formally introduced to Jacob and this new conflict in the finale, it's really been there all along. For the viewers that think this Jacob and Man in Black Shirt thing has just been added to the show recently, I remind you of this scene in the Pilot:
> 
> ...


I echo your sentiments exactly. This has been subtly set-up for a while now. The black vs. white thing was more overt in the first season (in the dreams of the castaways, the rocks, etc.) but they moved away from that for the next four years and now it all comes back to the beginning. Cool stuff. Can't wait!

Now, I think this season we'll see why the focus on the eyes in many episodes were important. I'm curious to what the payoff of that will be. Will it tell us who's on what side?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

At the beginning of this episode, we learn that Jacob is the one that is bringing people to the island. Yet in a previous episode, we learn that is was the failure to push the button every 108 minutes that was bringing people there. I'm not sure what to make of that, and how to resolve the 2 ideas.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Philosofy said:


> What does BSG stand for? I didn't think there was a crossover with Battle Star Galactica.





Turtleboy said:


> Oh! BSG = Black Shirt Guy? Thanks. I was wondering why people were calling him Battlestar Galactica.


Gotta pay better attention guys.  From a post I made a few pages back:



3D said:


> Oh, can we refer to black shirt guy as bsg, or would that confuse people because it's the shorthand for that scifi network show that died of repeated shark jumping?


Thanks to everyone for playing along, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

One thing that I haven't seen (or missed) in this thread: how come the statue was intact in Not-Locke and the gang's time? Aren't they in 1997? And didn't we see only the foot of the statue back in the original 1994? Yet, we saw the remnants of the Lostie's camp in this 1997...?


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

MickeS said:


> One thing that I haven't seen (or missed) in this thread: how come the statue was intact in Not-Locke and the gang's time? Aren't they in 1997? And didn't we see only the foot of the statue back in the original 1994? Yet, we saw the remnants of the Lostie's camp in this 1997...?


Your point is well taken but you need to add 10 years to all the years you mention in your post.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

MickeS said:


> One thing that I haven't seen (or missed) in this thread: how come the statue was intact in Not-Locke and the gang's time? Aren't they in 1997? And didn't we see only the foot of the statue back in the original 1994? Yet, we saw the remnants of the Lostie's camp in this 1997...?


It wasn't intact.

Three successive screencaps...


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Maybe this is a smeek, but I just had an OMG moment......based on reading that post above about Locke/Walt in the Pilot.....

What if some of the flashbacks we have seen all along were not Locke but anti-Locke? All we know is that he appeared to us at this moment in this episode in one timeline (or reality.....nudge nudge).

That could also connect with the scene from Season (I forget which) when Richard is going to test Locke as a child. Maybe we don't know if that was really the child or anti-Locke taking the form of the child. 

I know, whacked.....but it got me thinking nonetheless that the past may not be what it seems to us. If this were the case, perhaps some of what we see next season is a reveal followed by seeing more into how things really happened.


----------



## newsposter (Aug 18, 2002)

it bugged me that they had an injured friend and took a 5 minute time out to go for a pow-wow but like they said, there's no stopping the bleeding 

Why was anyone's glasses still on them if the magnetic field was so strong?

jacob's house looked pretty boring, does he just sit in there all day thinking up new orders..not a very fulfilling life. Jack sure has a hard head, i heard someone died in this ep and thought it would be him after seeing that 50lb steel box hit his head. But i guess the skull can take a lot of abuse. 

sawyer sure took a chance shooting out that radio. I guess with such a tiny gun no chance of going thru the hull?


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

jlb said:


> Maybe this is a smeek, but I just had an OMG moment......based on reading that post above about Locke/Walt in the Pilot.....
> 
> What if some of the flashbacks we have seen all along were not Locke but anti-Locke? All we know is that he appeared to us at this moment in this episode in one timeline (or reality.....nudge nudge).
> 
> ...


Well, there was that time that Locke was chased down by the yet unseen monster in season one, looked like he was toast as we looked down on him from the monsters POV, and then later he told Jack how he "looked into the eye of this island. And what I saw was beautiful."


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> At the very beginning of the episode we see Jacob literally weaving a tapestry. That's exactly what we find out that he and blackshirtguy have been doing with the Losties' lives..


I can't believe that this very significant point took 243 posts to be mentioned. Is destiny really destiny though when it takes SO much intervention by Jacob and possibly the anti-Jacob to happen?

Loved the finale even though I am away traveling and watched it on an old small screen std TV.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

aindik said:


> Your point is well taken but you need to add 10 years to all the years you mention in your post.


Oops. I'm still living in the past I guess. 



hefe said:


> It wasn't intact.
> 
> Three successive screencaps...


OK maybe I'm getting things confused. When was it that we saw the whole statue then? Was that in the beginning when Jacob and Jacob's enemy were on the beach?


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Yes when Jake and anti-Jake were on the beach we saw the whole statue. Also saw it episodes ago when Sawyer et. al. flashed around LOST in time.


----------



## BrandonRe (Jul 15, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> At the beginning of this episode, we learn that Jacob is the one that is bringing people to the island. Yet in a previous episode, we learn that is was the failure to push the button every 108 minutes that was bringing people there. I'm not sure what to make of that, and how to resolve the 2 ideas.


That's why we have next year...


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Charon2 said:


> Interesting also that they were carrying the crate like one would carry the Ark of the Covenant.


I noticed that too, and thought what you thought, but you carry a coffin the same way. It's a convenient way to carry something that's oddly shaped and takes many people. What's easier, holding onto a tiny handle, or a long pole?



speedcouch said:


> I kept saying to my husband "those doctors sure figured out how to shoot guns all of a sudden (meaning Juliette and Jack)..." though Jack was sure missing a lot when he first started shooting, but Juliette was a real bad-ass from the time the group pulled up to back-up Jack.





aindik said:


> Juliet isn't just a doctor. She's an Other.


I noticed it with Jack but didn't question it with Juliet. Others 101.

Greg


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

I think we should agree on calling the guy anti-Jacob. 
It's less confusing this way.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

So, how sure are we that every time we've seen Terry O'Quinn in a scene that takes place chronologically before Ben strangles a Terry O'Quinn character in the motel room, that he's John Locke and not this other guy?

I think the show might get kinda lame if we find out things before that, that we thought Locke did, weren't Locke. It would turn into some kind of cheesy "that wasn't me, it was my evil twin" story.


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Wow...so, so much to think about. I loved it, and the head is reeling a little bit about all the theories everyone has. I love it, but don't know how I'm going to explain any of your posts to my wife. 



MacThor said:


> Jacob: "It takes a *long* time when you make the thread yourself. But I suppose that's the point."
> 
> Also a reference to string theory perhaps?


To take it a step further, even the Black Rock could be part of the this 'long time'. We still don't know Richard's origins, and we know that Widmore bought the log from the Black Rock. It's possible today's (or 1977's) actions, the latest 'game', were started with the Black Rock.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

aindik said:


> So, how sure are we that every time we've seen Terry O'Quinn in a scene that takes place chronologically before Ben strangles a Terry O'Quinn character in the motel room, that he's John Locke and not this other guy?
> 
> I think the show might get kinda lame if we find out things before that, that we thought Locke did, weren't Locke. It would turn into some kind of cheesy "that wasn't me, it was my evil twin" story.


I agree, I think it only really makes for good story telling if the first impersonation of Locke happened after he was strangled (starting with when we see fake-Locke wearing a black cloak on the beach with the 316 survivors).

Plus, nothing Locke did back then was particularly suspect, right?


----------



## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, that _is _evidence that the bomb detonated...not conclusive evidence, but strong evidence. It's certainly what we're meant to think!


But didn't we see similar white flashes every time there was a time distortion?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

As for people saying "these guys (Jacob/AntiJacob) are playing a game, and the people are the pawns", I dunno if I agree with that exact sentiment.. You use pawns and kill them - maybe that's what AntiJacob was doing.. But to me, humans ARE the game.. AntiJacob is very pessimistic about humans and says they always invade, conquer, and destroy, and in the end it always goes bad. Jacob says "there's only one end - everything before that is progress".. Great line, and he's saying that people - humans - are progressing (by becoming less destructive), and he still has hope for them.

Hell, he even holds out hope that Ben won't go through with trying to kill him.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Alpinemaps said:


> To take it a step further, even the Black Rock could be part of the this 'long time'. We still don't know Richard's origins, and we know that Widmore bought the log from the Black Rock. It's possible today's (or 1977's) actions, the latest 'game', were started with the Black Rock.


From what we saw this episode, I'm guessing that the Black Rock was part of an earlier iteration of the game. Jacob brings people to the island to do...something, Anti-Jacob tries to prevent...something. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Richard probably isn't a piece in the games; he's more like part of the board.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> From what we saw this episode, I'm guessing that the Black Rock was part of an earlier iteration of the game. Jacob brings people to the island to do...something, Anti-Jacob tries to prevent...something. Rinse, wash, repeat.
> 
> Richard probably isn't a piece in the games; he's more like part of the board.


I think he brings people to the island to prove to AntiJacob that people don't always have to be Jack, blowing stuff up and mindlessly destroying/killing.

Maybe Bernard/Rose finding peace and just existing in retirement is Jacob's ultimate evidence that he was right, and that DOES justify them being Adam and Eve.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jkeegan said:


> Plus, nothing Locke did back then was particularly suspect, right?


I think everything Locke did in the vein of "the Island talks to me, and I know stuff I shouldn't know" is suspect now.


----------



## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

jkeegan said:


> I think he brings people to the island to prove to AntiJacob that people don't always have to be Jack, blowing stuff up and mindlessly destroying/killing.
> 
> Maybe Bernard/Rose finding peace and just existing in retirement is Jacob's ultimate evidence that he was right, and that DOES justify them being Adam and Eve.


Excellent, point!


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Anyone want to wager how many posts this thread will be by the time we get to the season premiere?


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Bierboy said:


> But didn't we see similar white flashes every time there was a time distortion?


Good point, it perhaps they are getting another flash in time and they all end up back in the present.


----------



## GDG76 (Oct 2, 2000)

I'm betting that whatever is in Hurley's case is going to be key next year..

And I'm kind of bummed that Locke is actually dead, and dead for good. He didn't have a good redemption and I was hoping he would... I don't care about Jacob and his nemesis as much as I did about Locke... though I wonder if there is some Locke left somewhere in anti-Locke... he knew a lot about Locke's time back in the real world...


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

jkeegan said:


> AntiJacob is very pessimistic about humans and says they always invade, conquer, and destroy, and in the end it always goes bad. Jacob says "there's only one end - everything before that is progress"


Which is ironic considering what Anti-Jacob just did. Up until now, attempts at killing Jacob would have always failed. But it only took one success to move things forward. "There is only one end - everything before that is progress" can be used to describe Anti-Jacob's goal of killing Jacob. Anti-Jacob changed what "always happens", and has perhaps opened the door for Jacob to be proven right.


----------



## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

GDG76 said:


> I'm betting that whatever is in Hurley's case is going to be key next year..
> 
> And I'm kind of bummed that Locke is actually dead, and dead for good. He didn't have a good redemption and I was hoping he would... I don't care about Jacob and his nemesis as much as I did about Locke... though I wonder if there is some Locke left somewhere in anti-Locke... he knew a lot about Locke's time back in the real world...


That's kind of how I feel. I care about the Losties, and don't care about Jacob and his foe, and I spent 5 years caring about the Losties. It's hard to bring in essentially a "new" character and make the WHOLE focus about him 5 years into the series.


----------



## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> You know, I had a very distinct memory of that happening too, but last night I skimmed through "Man Behind the Curtain" (where Ben takes Locke to the cabin), "Beginning of the End" (Hurley visits the cabin) and "Cabin Fever" (Ben, Locke and Hurly), but none of them showed anything about the ash being broken.


Bizarre. Count me among the people with a recollection of someone, in some episode, breaking the ash circle. But I can't remember when, or who, and if you've reviewed those episodes and didn't see it there, it must be a false memory.


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

What if the Losties are not just travelling back and forth in time, but are crossing back and forth between alternate realities or something like that. If that were the case, then "anti-Locke" could very well be our Locke from another reality. That would be just like a JJ show to do something like that.


But, also, for the sake of argument, or just another possibility. We have already seen in our Lost world, that someone can exist in the same time as another copy of themselves (paradox and all). For instance, Locke from one time has Richard go see Locke to take the bullet out. If that were the case, then anti-Locke could still be Locke.

More likely, in that scene where Locke sends Richard to take the bullet out of Locke, perhaps anti-Locke was one of those Lockes.


Man, this is heavy.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

danterner said:


> Bizarre. Count me among the people with a recollection of someone, in some episode, breaking the ash circle. But I can't remember when, or who, and if you've reviewed those episodes and didn't see it there, it must be a false memory.


^


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

speedcouch said:


> So they show won't be back until Jan 2010??? What a rip...:down::down::down:
> 
> Cheryl


These types of comments baffle me. How could anyone who is a regular viewer of this show be the least bit surprised or dismayed about the fact that the show won't be back until next January?


Steveknj said:


> That's kind of how I feel. I care about the Losties, and don't care about Jacob and his foe, and I spent 5 years caring about the Losties. It's hard to bring in essentially a "new" character and make the WHOLE focus about him 5 years into the series.


You've now commented on this a few times, and I don't see what you're talking about. How is it that you think the show has suddenly shifted focus and is no longer about the "Losties?" Although they may have introduced Jacob and Anti-Jake, I don't think we have any reason to believe that the "Losties" are not still the central focus of the show.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

jlb said:


> What if the Losties are not just travelling back and forth in time, but are crossing back and forth between alternate realities or something like that. If that were the case, then "anti-Locke" could very well be our Locke from another reality. That would be just like a JJ show to do something like that.
> 
> But, also, for the sake of argument, or just another possibility. We have already seen in our Lost world, that someone can exist in the same time as another copy of themselves (paradox and all). For instance, Locke from one time has Richard go see Locke to take the bullet out. If that were the case, then anti-Locke could still be Locke.
> 
> ...


In the example you cite, I'm pretty sure that the Locke who told Richard to go help his injured self is Fake Locke.

However to make your point, Miles was around his infant self in 1977.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JYoung said:


> In the example you cite, I'm pretty sure that the Locke who told Richard to go help his injured self is Fake Locke.
> 
> However to make your point, Miles was around his infant self in 1977.


And didn't Sawyer see himself when he saw Kate helping Claire give birth?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

jlb said:


> Anyone want to wager how many posts this thread will be by the time we get to the season premiere?


Last season we didn't quite get as far, but I think it was after S2, the thread ended up locked at around 1000 posts. I remember it being the thread that kept going, and going, and going. 



DevdogAZ said:


> And didn't Sawyer see himself when he saw Kate helping Claire give birth?


Nope.

Greg


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> Although they may have introduced Jacob and Anti-Jake, I don't think we have any reason to believe that the "Losties" are not still the central focus of the show.


I agree; I think the Jacob story will give us _why_ these particular people are the central focus.


----------



## brermike (Jun 1, 2006)

latrobe7 said:


> I agree; I think the Jacob story will give us _why_ these particular people are the central focus.


I agree, as well. After every season finale, it seems like some people are worried about the "new" direction of the show. I remember when season 3 ended, everyone thought the show would no longer be on the Island and thought production was moving to LA. The Losties are the focus of the show and always have been. But that's not to say, there are other characters that have been invested in them and the Island for a long time.

Also, anti-Jacob seems to have a lot of Locke in him (aside from appearance and memories). I wonder if Locke truly is the chosen one and the fact that anti-Jacob seems to have taken control of specifically him, will in fact be his undoing. In essence, Locke really did have to die to fulfill his destiny. That fits well within his arc.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Fleegle said:


> As for the Clueless Richard and how Richard didn't know that Jacob wasn't talking to Richard, Jacob WAS communicating with Ben through Richard. When Ben was going on his "Why not me" rant just before he killed Jacob, he mentioned Jacob using Richard to send him notes.
> 
> So Jacob WAS communicating with Ben indirectly, using Richard as a proxy.


Some have wondered if Ben was unknowingly obeying Fake Jacob, which would mean Richard was too. Did Jacob want them to move the island or turn the wheel either time? Christian says he represents Jacob, but we have seen Fake Jacob impersonate dead people, and haven't seen a documented case of real Jacob doing it. (I think BSG is way shorter)



jkeegan said:


> As for people saying "these guys (Jacob/AntiJacob) are playing a game, and the people are the pawns", I dunno if I agree with that exact sentiment.. You use pawns and kill them - maybe that's what AntiJacob was doing.. But to me, humans ARE the game.. AntiJacob is very pessimistic about humans and says they always invade, conquer, and destroy, and in the end it always goes bad. Jacob says "there's only one end - everything before that is progress".. Great line, and he's saying that people - humans - are progressing (by becoming less destructive), and he still has hope for them.


This judgement of humanity from the guy who has spent centuries trying to kill his counterpart and has gone to extreme lengths to do it. Where does he get off judging humans? If he was typical evil, you'd think he would like all the conquering and destroying....



Steveknj said:


> That's kind of how I feel. I care about the Losties, and don't care about Jacob and his foe, and I spent 5 years caring about the Losties. It's hard to bring in essentially a "new" character and make the WHOLE focus about him 5 years into the series.


But if Terry O'Quinn keeps playing the part, I'll feel a little better about it. He's such an awesome actor. The guy who played him in the beginning has been around a lot, but he's not nearly as good.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Not that I think it's related in any way, but the scene with Jacob and Jacob's enemy on the beach in the beginning reminded me of the end of the Sandman comic book "Season of mists" (I'll spoiler tag it for those who haven't read this excellent novel but might want to ):


Spoiler



where Lucifer has abandoned Hell, cut off his wings and sits on a beach in (IIRC) Perth, Australia, relaxing and admiring the setting sun


Just the imagery is similar, not any of the story.


----------



## tivogurl (Dec 16, 2004)

How did Bernard and Rose travel back to 1977? I don't remember them on the plane with Jack, Ben, Hurley, etc.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

tivogurl said:


> How did Bernard and Rose travel back to 1977? I don't remember them on the plane with Jack, Ben, Hurley, etc.


They traveled to 1977 the same way (presumably) that Sawyer and Juliet and Jin and Miles and Faraday did...they were skipping through time, and finally stopped there.

The Lost Returnees somehow joined them at that time when they arrived.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

Right, they were skipping through time, ran like everyone else. They got separated from our group when they were assaulted by flaming arrows and they never met back up with out Losties until now. In fact, they seem to have actively avoided being found by them.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Alpinemaps said:


> To take it a step further, even the Black Rock could be part of the this 'long time'. We still don't know Richard's origins, and we know that Widmore bought the log from the Black Rock.


Richard was used by Widmore in order to recruit Juliet to come to the island, wasn't he?


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

No, Ben used Richard to recruit Juliet. That was after Widmore had been banished.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

getreal said:


> Richard was used by Widmore in order to recruit Juliet to come to the island, wasn't he?


Richard recruited her, but I don't believe at Widmore's direction. Richard was "aligned" with Ben at that point, no?

Edit: Ha, beaten to it.


----------



## brianp6621 (Nov 22, 1999)

gchance said:


> I noticed it with Jack but didn't question it with Juliet. Others 101.
> Greg


Didn't Jack handle a gun quite a bit during the early seasons? They had guns for quite some time.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

brianp6621 said:


> Didn't Jack handle a gun quite a bit during the early seasons? They had guns for quite some time.


Well, the "early seasons" were all of 108 days. 

I don't think he was in too many shootouts.


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

hefe said:


> Well, the "early seasons" were all of 108 days.
> 
> I don't think he was in too many shootouts.


Sayid, Kate and Sawyer all had gun experience and could probably have taught him a thing or two. Though, that was three years ago now (in Jack's personal timeline).


----------



## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

3D said:


> Gotta pay better attention guys.  From a post I made a few pages back:
> 
> Thanks to everyone for playing along, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.


That's called "smeeking," my friend. I'll explain it to you at the next Bar Association event.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

aindik said:


> Sayid, Kate and Sawyer all had gun experience and could probably have taught him a thing or two. Though, that was three years ago now (in Jack's personal timeline).


Yes, but it's not like they could run down to the local gun store or Wal-Mart to pick up more Ammo... They had a finite supply, and spending a few hundred rounds to practice was probably not a priority.


----------



## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

Turtleboy said:


> Oh! BSG = Black Shirt Guy? Thanks. I was wondering why people were calling him Battlestar Galactica.


I prefer faux-Locke, as we all know immediately who is being referred to.

Barbeedoll


----------



## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

Wow. Really amazing. This show is just tremendous.

Terry O'Quinn is just great. Looking back, _of course_ he is a different person, his whole affect and confidence and body language is totally different. It seems so obvious now. But at the same time I didn't see it coming at all. Great writing, great acting. Really well done. I wonder when they told the actor exactly what was going on.

I loved Miles's line about about whether they were sure the bomb was not itself the incident, since I'd been thinking that a lot too, of course.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

barbeedoll said:


> I prefer faux-Locke, as we all know immediately who is being referred to.
> 
> Barbeedoll


I prefer un-Locke.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

balboa dave said:


> I prefer un-Locke.


So you think he's the Keye to the story?


----------



## barbeedoll (Sep 26, 2005)

Bierboy said:


> But didn't we see similar white flashes every time there was a time distortion?


I agree. Juliette is throwing rocks to bang on the bomb and we see a big white flash. The season ending cliff hanger is - did the bomb go off and counter the released power from the drilling, or did another time jump occur just in time to get everyone safely to another place in time. Maybe before Sahid and Juliette die.

Barbeedoll


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

danterner said:


> Bizarre. Count me among the people with a recollection of someone, in some episode, breaking the ash circle. But I can't remember when, or who, and if you've reviewed those episodes and didn't see it there, it must be a false memory.


Maybe people are remembering when Locke picked up a handful of ash to inspect in Man Behind the Curtain?


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

brianp6621 said:


> Didn't Jack handle a gun quite a bit during the early seasons? They had guns for quite some time.





hefe said:


> Well, the "early seasons" were all of 108 days.
> 
> I don't think he was in too many shootouts.





aindik said:


> Sayid, Kate and Sawyer all had gun experience and could probably have taught him a thing or two. Though, that was three years ago now (in Jack's personal timeline).





Fleegle said:


> Yes, but it's not like they could run down to the local gun store or Wal-Mart to pick up more Ammo... They had a finite supply, and spending a few hundred rounds to practice was probably not a priority.


Let's just say Jack was possessed by a certain Bauer.

Greg


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> That's kind of how I feel. I care about the Losties, and don't care about Jacob and his foe, and I spent 5 years caring about the Losties. It's hard to bring in essentially a "new" character and make the WHOLE focus about him 5 years into the series.


Others have commented on your post, and I'll add my .02.

We have no idea what the final season will be like. It could be Jacob oriented, or it could be Island mythology, or Lostie stories, or some hybrid of these, or most likely, something we haven't even thought of. So to make a blanket statement like yours "where a new character becomes the whole focus" is not only uncalled for, it's unfaithful to DL/CC. They've held us captivated on an incredible journey, that far transcends a "TV show". I have absolute confidence the Final Season will be the ride of my life.

Have faith.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Did anyone else pick up some weird vibes between Bernard and Juliette? When Sawyer and Kate walk away from Bernard and Rose, Bernard kinda stops Juliette and asks her if she's sure she doesn't want any tea. Juliette says maybe another time and there's this weird look between them. Then she turns and walks away and Bernard is still looking at her with maybe a sad look.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

This one is spoiler-tagged, but if anyone's wondering what last season will be like:



Spoiler



The producers are saying it'll be more like season one, with more character-oriented stories, focusing on the drama of the people we've gotten to know over the course of the series. They said either in a podcast or in an interview, I forget which, that slowly they've been whittling away all the extra characters (tailies, freighter people) and will keep doing so until we're back down to the core. I don't think we have to worry about not following our characters anymore.



Greg


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

So now I'm curious. Did Jacob bring Dharma Initiative to the island? Or did faux-Locke bring them as part of his plans to create the loop hole?

Oh, and Richard did notice something wrong with Locke when Locke finds Richard on the beach, Richard tells him he's different, and Locke just says he has a purpose now.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

balboa dave said:


> I prefer un-Locke.


:up: I like that too. UnLocke and DeadLocke.


----------



## Ruth (Jul 31, 2001)

gchance said:


> This one is spoiler-tagged, but if anyone's wondering what last season will be like:
> 
> Greg


It's not spoiler-tagged, just quoted. It's not a spoiler of anything specific, but you probably want to to edit your post anyway.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

getreal said:


> :up: I like that too. UnLocke and DeadLocke.


Or Real Locke or Really Dead Locke.


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

aindik said:


> So, how sure are we that every time we've seen Terry O'Quinn in a scene that takes place chronologically before Ben strangles a Terry O'Quinn character in the motel room, that he's John Locke and not this other guy?
> 
> I think the show might get kinda lame if we find out things before that, that we thought Locke did, weren't Locke. It would turn into some kind of cheesy "that wasn't me, it was my evil twin" story.


Has the Smoke Monster/BSG/Anti-Jacob ever taken the form of somebody alive?

If not, then I don't think we have anything to worry about apperances before Ben killed Locke.

-smak-


----------



## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

My guess on the statue is that it was purposely destroyed at a time the island "changed ownership". Like the Taliban destroyed all the religious statues in Afhganistan when they took over.

-smak-


----------



## michad (Sep 9, 2002)

As to whether or not antiLocke can touch others....and whether or not antiLocke is using Christian's image and Christian is in fact dead; Just saw the bonus stuff off the Season 4 DVD's and in the mobisodes Christian scruffs Vincent's neck and of course last season he held Aaron.


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

smak said:


> Has the Smoke Monster/BSG/Anti-Jacob ever taken the form of somebody alive?
> 
> If not, then I don't think we have anything to worry about apperances before Ben killed Locke.
> 
> -smak-


Something took the form of Walt, but we don't know what.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> So you think he's the Keye to the story?


It might be a combination Locke. We already know the numbers.


----------



## balboa dave (Jan 19, 2004)

smak said:


> My guess on the statue is that it was purposely destroyed at a time the island "changed ownership". Like the Taliban destroyed all the religious statues in Afhganistan when they took over.
> 
> -smak-


Well, it was standing when we see the sailing ship, which seems likely to be the Black Rock, and the Black Rock did have dynamite. Also, any event big enough to send a ship to the middle of the island could be big enough to destroy a thirty story tall statue.

Alternatively, if it was still standing in 1977, which I kind of doubt because I think it would have been visible, a nuclear blast could knock it over too, just from the earth shaking.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

getreal said:


> :up: I like that too. UnLocke and DeadLocke.


John clearly should have bought into LifeLocke. You know, for identity protection.


----------



## Mike Wells (Mar 9, 2000)

Queue said:


> Did anyone else pick up some weird vibes between Bernard and Juliette? When Sawyer and Kate walk away from Bernard and Rose, Bernard kinda stops Juliette and asks her if she's sure she doesn't want any tea. Juliette says maybe another time and there's this weird look between them. Then she turns and walks away and Bernard is still looking at her with maybe a sad look.


Yup, I did as well. It was almost as if he expected her to stay for some reason, though we must now know that reason yet. Sawyer was conflicted too - really seemed like he wanted to stay, but Juliet seemed to be _invited_ by Bernard.


----------



## Mike Wells (Mar 9, 2000)

I thought I had a revelation about the compass. (Anyone discuss that last week? The compass loops over and over through time, without beginning or end - Locke gives it to Richard, who gives it to Locke from the past, who gives it to Richard, repeat forever.

I thought maybe Faux-Locke was involved, avoiding the paradox, but it doesn't seem so. Ah well.

It's still interesting to think about the compass, like where did it come from?


----------



## Queue (Apr 7, 2009)

Mike Wells said:


> Yup, I did as well. It was almost as if he expected her to stay for some reason, though we must now know that reason yet. Sawyer was conflicted too - really seemed like he wanted to stay, but Juliet seemed to be _invited_ by Bernard.


Yeah, I got the feeling that Sawyer wanted to stay because Rose and Bernard had what he found at Dharma, peace and a place he felt was home. It just seemed there was something more with Bernard and Juliette. I wonder if in Bernard and Rose's jumps in time, thay they saw what happened to Juliette, so Bernard knew she was going to die, and kinda tried to keep her from going.


----------



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I just read Jeff Jensen's article about the season finale in EW, and he mentioned something that I don't know has been pointed out in the thread, that Jacob's last words about "They're coming..." might be referring to the Losties from 1977. Not sure if that's correct or not, but it makes sense. I didn't even think of that for some reason.


----------



## latrobe7 (May 1, 2005)

Mike Wells said:


> I thought I had a revelation about the compass. (Anyone discuss that last week? The compass loops over and over through time, without beginning or end - Locke gives it to Richard, who gives it to Locke from the past, who gives it to Richard, repeat forever.
> 
> I thought maybe Faux-Locke was involved, avoiding the paradox, but it doesn't seem so. Ah well.
> 
> It's still interesting to think about the compass, like where did it come from?


It was discussed...

Here's what the producers had to say: link


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Ruth said:


> It's not spoiler-tagged, just quoted. It's not a spoiler of anything specific, but you probably want to to edit your post anyway.


D'oh! I did that in a hurry, sorry everyone.  Thanks, Ruth.

Greg


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

MickeS said:



> It was definitely not Anubis, it had a crocodile head. I'd say Taweret sounds right (but it's not supposed to have a crocodile head according to the link above?).
> 
> Anyway, found this, which probably means nothing, but could relate to "Lost"
> 
> ...


Which is why I say, when it's all over next year, that statue will become Juliet. IMHO it already looks like her from the back.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

A great article that pretty much nailed the reason I love Rose and Bernard as ancillary characters.

http://www.cliqueclack.com/tv/2009/05/15/finally-somebody-on-lost-gets-it/

I was so happy not only to see them this week, but to have them say what I expected to say.


> Rose and Bernard are quite possible the only sane inhabitants of that island. They looked around at all of the fools running around searching for polar bears and mythical leaders who may or may not exist, and they said, "you know what? **** it; we're retired." They did what anybody should have done, what anybody with any damn sense in their head would have done: they enjoyed the fact that they were stranded in paradise with the person they love.


Diane


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

rondotcom said:


> Which is why I day, when it's all over next year, that statue will become Juliet. IMHO it already looks like her from the back.


That sounds like an excuse for me to post this pic again.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Turtleboy said:


> That's called "smeeking," my friend. I'll explain it to you at the next Bar Association event.


Oh, I thought smeeking was just when you post something as a new thought that you would know has already been posted if you'd read the entire thread. I didn't know about this extra nuance.



MickeS said:


> I just read Jeff Jensen's article about the season finale in EW, and he mentioned something that I don't know has been pointed out in the thread, that Jacob's last words about "They're coming..." might be referring to the Losties from 1977. Not sure if that's correct or not, but it makes sense. I didn't even think of that for some reason.


By my understanding, that's a smeek of a post I made earlier . In fairness, I did put spoiler tags around it for non-Lost related reasons. I also didn't think of the 1977 Losties, but instead thought Jacob was referring to the Ajira group, which is probably what those of us lacking the Sherlock Holmes gene were intended to think. Once pointed out though, it kinda seems obvious.


----------



## rondotcom (Feb 13, 2005)

Fool Me Twice said:


> That sounds like an excuse for me to post this pic again.


AS far as I'm converned you don't need a reason!


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Queue said:


> Something took the form of Walt, but we don't know what.


But Walt did have unusual psychic abilities that might have let him project himself into the minds of people close to him. Walt didn't seem as real as Christian does. Or maybe Jacob can appear as live people, but anti-Jacob only as dead people. 

I thought the line about Juliette wanting a cup of tea was trying to tell us something, but I thought probably she had known all along they were there and had taken them the Dharma supplies they had and maybe stuck around for a cup of tea occasionally.

I'm trying to remember where the idea that Locke was supposed to be leader originally came from. I think Ben told Locke he was special, which could be Jacob or anti-Jacob wanting to make him leader, or could just be Ben telling him what he needed to hear as usual. Anyone remember where it first was said?


----------



## Figaro (Nov 10, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> But Walt did have unusual psychic abilities that might have let him project himself into the minds of people close to him. Walt didn't seem as real as Christian does. Or maybe Jacob can appear as live people, but anti-Jacob only as dead people.
> 
> I thought the line about Juliette wanting a cup of tea was trying to tell us something, but I thought probably she had known all along they were there and had taken them the Dharma supplies they had and maybe stuck around for a cup of tea occasionally.
> 
> I'm trying to remember where the idea that Locke was supposed to be leader originally came from. I think Ben told Locke he was special, which could be Jacob or anti-Jacob wanting to make him leader, or could just be Ben telling him what he needed to hear as usual. Anyone remember where it first was said?


Could it be when Locke told Richard back in the '50s?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> I'm trying to remember where the idea that Locke was supposed to be leader originally came from. I think Ben told Locke he was special, which could be Jacob or anti-Jacob wanting to make him leader, or could just be Ben telling him what he needed to hear as usual. Anyone remember where it first was said?


Ben first told him in the hatch that he was actually there to see John (which might have been partially true). He was also encouraged by Richard. Then there was the way the Others seemed to be waiting for him. But, for the most part, Locke just followed the Island. He confronted and chastised Ben in his cabin after infiltrating it, then blew up the sub, then after getting Sawyer to kill Cooper he marched into camp as if he owned the place and there was that great scene where he beat the crap out of Mikhail when he questioned Locke, and no one moved an inch to prevent him. At that point he was acting very similar to the way the Locke imposter would act later.


----------



## tgrim1 (Sep 11, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> I thought the line about Juliette wanting a cup of tea was trying to tell us something, but I thought probably she had known all along they were there and had taken them the Dharma supplies they had and maybe stuck around for a cup of tea occasionally.


That totally makes sense to me now. I was wondering what that look and conversation was for.


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Ben also told Locke he was the leader right before he spun the donkey wheel on its axis. Ben told him where Richard and the Others were, and how they would obey his every word. But what exactly occurred first might require us to read Faraday's journal ...


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> ... for the most part, Locke just followed the Island. He confronted and chastised Ben in his cabin after infiltrating it, then blew up the sub,* then after getting Sawyer to kill Cooper* he marched into camp as if he owned the place ...


It just occurred to me that Locke used Sawyer to kill Cooper for him, and later he used Ben to kill Jacob. He's a delegator.

Hmmmm ...


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

getreal said:


> It just occurred to me that Locke used Sawyer to kill Cooper for him, and later he used Ben to kill Jacob. He's a delegator.


...except those were two different people. Locke used Sawyer to kill Cooper, but Anti-Jacob used Ben to kill Jacob. Locke was lying in an Ajira Airways box on the beach at the time.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So in this pattern of drawing people to the island for whatever purpose, who are "the Others?" Are they the best of each group that's come over the years? The ones on the lists? Why didn't Jacob ever let them see him or talk to him? 

Jacob weaves his own cloth and makes his own thread. Ben takes his people and moves them into Dharmaville with electricity and satelite dishes. Surely he wasn't following Jacob's orders as delivered by Richard. Did we ever see Richard living in Dharmaville? 

Jacob was all about free will. He told Locke he had a choice after he saved him from his fall, and he reminded Ben that he had a choice and didn't have to kill him. Even for Ben it seemed odd that he went ahead and did it after knowing that Locke wasn't Locke. Giving humans a choice is always risky. Maybe Anti-Jacob is against free will and wants to force people to do his bidding.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

tgmii said:


> I cracked up at what I viewed as winks to the audience.
> 
> - Sayid telling Jack they have 2 hours to complete their mission with the bomb. Well, of course, the season finale is 2 hours! Its "24" with different Jack!
> 
> ...


His Russian was horrible. I can only assume his Korean wasn't much better.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Jacob weaves his own cloth and makes his own thread. Ben takes his people and moves them into Dharmaville with electricity and satelite dishes. Surely he wasn't following Jacob's orders as delivered by Richard. Did we ever see Richard living in Dharmaville?
> 
> Jacob was all about free will. He told Locke he had a choice after he saved him from his fall, and he reminded Ben that he had a choice and didn't have to kill him. Even for Ben it seemed odd that he went ahead and did it after knowing that Locke wasn't Locke. Giving humans a choice is always risky. Maybe Anti-Jacob is against free will and wants to force people to do his bidding.


Free Will vs. Predestination. Black vs. White. Vorlons vs. Shadows. 

Greg


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

RandallW said:


> Brings the idea to the forefront of why Locke couldn't kill him himself... Maybe if people are related to one another (ie, Jacob and BSG/Esau, Locke/Father), they aren't allowed to kill each other on the island? But this would mean that Widmore and Ben would have to be related as well. =P


And hence the test of leadership -- being able to kill your father somehow made you special. Locke never did kill his father, confirming Richard's assertion that there was nothing special about him.

Interesting.


----------



## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

LordKronos said:


> I figured as much too. However, if that's the case, and if we go by the assumption that the ash was a barrier to keep bsg in, then the theory that bsg was taking people's form goes out the windows, since we saw many ghosts in the previous seasons (including Christian in season 1)


Maybe the ash was keeping AJ _out_.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Even for Ben it seemed odd that he went ahead and did it after knowing that Locke wasn't Locke.


Ben didn't know Locke wasn't Locke, did he?


----------



## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Clearly, Sawyer and Ben got nothing on Anti-Jacob when it comes to long cons.  But I suspect next year we'll find that Jacob has a bit of a con going on of his own.

I think we're about to see the point where Walt's vision comes true - Locke on the beach, surrounded by people who want to hurt him. Well, _some _version of Locke anyway ...


----------



## Jeeters (Feb 25, 2003)

sonnik said:


> Sorry if I overlooked this already, but what was the picture of in the cabin before it was burned?





rgr said:


> It was the statue.


The other picture in the cabin (which maybe is what Sonnik was asking about?) was a painting of a dog.


----------



## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Even for Ben it seemed odd that he went ahead and did it after knowing that Locke wasn't Locke.





MickeS said:


> Ben didn't know Locke wasn't Locke, did he?


As far as we know so far, Ben did not know, he went in the foot before the container arrived and was opened.
Not saying he couldn't have peeked earlier, but those facts are not yet in evidence to us.

Diane


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I suppose there is a small chance that Lapidus wasn't the guy they were referring to as a "candidate", but Locke was. Bram asked why they brought "this yahoo" and said "he didn't even know the answer to the question"--the latter statement could refer to an off island inquiry similar to the encounter they had with Miles. Lapidus wondered out loud what he was a candidate for, but the subject was changed.

Then there's the fact that they lugged Lockes body across the island when just the head would have been proof enough. (Though the bald head would prevent them from presenting the head with the traditional dramatic flourish.)

Eh, I think they were talking about Lapidus...


----------



## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Hey, couldn't BSG have impersonated a Dead Locke in the crate and maybe we do in fact have a reincarnated (or alive) Locke on the Island? I can't think of a way that that works but what the heck....


----------



## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

jlb said:


> Hey, couldn't BSG have impersonated a Dead Locke in the crate and maybe we do in fact have a reincarnated (or alive) Locke on the Island? I can't think of a way that that works but what the heck....


The line from Jacob, "well, you found your loophole," is supposed to call back to the first scene of the episode and confirm for us that the bald guy in the foot is the other guy in the first scene.


----------



## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Off-topic as far as this episode, but I just found out that the actress playing Ben's mother is his real-life wife. Neat, and a little disturbing


----------



## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Just for the 1st time re-watching early LOST episodes. Remember the first season controversey here on TivoCommunity over is Locke good or evil? Somewhat prescient.

As a fan, I don't 'like' Locke being dead but I do love the twists and turns in the story.

My bet, it's all controlled by Vincent.


----------



## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

When Ben was crying about Locke being Moses, I thought about the fact that Moses' brother was named Aaron. 

I don't think Jacob's enemy should be referred to as anti-Locke because he is so much more than that. He is defined by his relationship to Jacob, not by any of the human forms he may take. 

Speaking of that, I have a feeling that it was Jacob's enemy who visited the adult, post-815 losties in the real world and the real Jacob who visited them as children, or pre-815. Jacob was visiting them to bring them to the island for the first time. Jacob's enemy was impersonating Jacob to bring them to the island a second time in order to create his loophole. 

So Locke was never special; never meant to be the leader. It was Locke himself who told Richard in the 1950s that he was meant to be the leader. Richard accepted that as a possibility because you must have some sort of specialness if you can time travel.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I've been wondering if all of the dead people (or people no longer on the island such as Walt) that the Losties have had visions of will turn out to be either Jacob or BSG every time. I keep thinking about how Jacob made sure to physically touch everyone he visited off of the island and how that contrasts with the encounter we saw earlier this season where Christian refused to help Lock up after Locke fell down the well.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Then there's the fact that they lugged Lockes body across the island when just the head would have been proof enough. (Though the bald head would prevent them from presenting the head with the traditional dramatic flourish.)


That was an entertaining post, I felt like I was in your head. Very freeform. 



gchance said:


> Free Will vs. Predestination. Black vs. White. Vorlons vs. Shadows.
> 
> Greg





3D said:


> I've been wondering if all of the dead people (or people no longer on the island such as Walt) that the Losties have had visions of will turn out to be either Jacob or BSG every time. I keep thinking about how Jacob made sure to physically touch everyone he visited off of the island and how that contrasts with the encounter we saw earlier this season where Christian refused to help Lock up after Locke fell down the well.


AHA! That's it, Jacob IS a Vorlon. All the Losties have pieces of Kosh ("We are all Kosh.") that they're carrying with them, who appears to them in dreams.

Yes.

Greg


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

tiams said:


> When Ben was crying about Locke being Moses, I thought about the fact that Moses' brother was named Aaron.


Then surely you must have also picked up on the significance of a character named "Christian Shepherd".



tiams said:


> ... I have a feeling that it was Jacob's enemy who visited the adult, post-815 losties in the real world and the real Jacob who visited them as children, or pre-815. Jacob was visiting them to bring them to the island for the first time. Jacob's enemy was impersonating Jacob to bring them to the island a second time in order to create his loophole.


I think you're over-complicating things there. Why would someone whom nobody has met have to disguise themself as someone else who is also a complete stranger to them? I would prefer to think that flashback scenes showing Jacob with other characters are intended to show us how JACOB has literally "touched" their lives before.


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

getreal said:


> It just occurred to me that Locke used Sawyer to kill Cooper for him, and later he used Ben to kill Jacob. He's a delegator.
> 
> Hmmmm ...





Rob Helmerichs said:


> ...except those were two different people. Locke used Sawyer to kill Cooper, but Anti-Jacob used Ben to kill Jacob. Locke was lying in an Ajira Airways box on the beach at the time.


Oh, and I am reminded that Locke ultimately did not even kill himself!


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> As far as we know so far, Ben did not know, he went in the foot before the container arrived and was opened.
> Not saying he couldn't have peeked earlier, but those facts are not yet in evidence to us.
> 
> Diane





aindik said:


> The line from Jacob, "well, you found your loophole," is supposed to call back to the first scene of the episode and confirm for us that the bald guy in the foot is the other guy in the first scene.


I guess I was assuming that the loophole line and the way Jacob and "Locke" were talking to each other tipped off Ben that it wasn't really Locke who had brought him there. It didn't really make too much sense at that point to kill Jacob--so Smokey told him to, but obviously that wasn't speaking for Jacob. I think Ben just killed him because he wanted to and he's Ben. I think Jacob knew he would and let him.

"Locke" told his people they would need to rest up for what he has planned for them. Wonder what that could be? I thought they were all going to see Jacob. What happened to that?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

During the "incident", when Juliet got wrapped by chains and then got "shafted", the sound effects were the same as when Locke (?) was being pulled by Smokey down a hole in Season 1 or 2.


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I guess I was assuming that the loophole line and the way Jacob and "Locke" were talking to each other tipped off Ben that it wasn't really Locke who had brought him there. It didn't really make too much sense at that point to kill Jacob--so Smokey told him to, but obviously that wasn't speaking for Jacob. I think Ben just killed him because he wanted to and he's Ben. I think Jacob knew he would and let him.
> 
> "Locke" told his people they would need to rest up for what he has planned for them. Wonder what that could be? I thought they were all going to see Jacob. What happened to that?


Locke was going to see Jacob, the rest were going to "deal" with the remaining passengers from the flight that he returned on.


----------



## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's something that occurred to me. Christian told Sun that she had "quite a journey ahead." That implies Sun had to go back in time. But Jacob says "They're coming", implying the ones from the past are coming forward.

Was there any interaction between BSG and Christian? Did we see both on screen at the same time? We know that BSG can tell the future, judging from how he manipulated Richard and Locke.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

getreal said:


> Then surely you must have also picked up on the significance of a character named "Christian Shepherd".


Isn't Jacob also Jesus? Betrayed by someone he trusted and killed unjustly. I expect him to rise from the dead next season.


----------



## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

I'm starting to think that the Christian Shepherd we've seen on the Island has been Jacob, but BSG or the Smoke Monster.


----------



## amory (Jan 24, 2002)

OK, this certainly isn't of any vital importance, but I want to keep the thread going (having Lost withdrawals).

What happened to the rest of the statue? That is a lot of material to just have disappeared. Where did it go? And if it fell, wouldn't it have crushed Jacob's "house"?

FWIW, I don't think BSG is the smoke monster . . . although he may have figured out a way to use the monster for his purposes. I think the monster exists independently of any single person (or representation of a person).


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

What a finale!

So many questions in my head - it's great to read the theories/speculation here! Some fits in with my own thoughts, others are making me second-guess my own thoughts.


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

Hmm, here's something to consider.. Ben chose to go to the smoke monster to be judged for what he'd done.. He didn't go to Jacob.. How's that work exactly, in Ben's mind? Ben is even able to summon the smoke monster.

I'm starting to find the "black shirt guy isn't the smoke monster" idea more interesting than not.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

I think I am dense. They had an entire episode called "Dead is Dead" and I still never, ever entertained the idea that Locke was really dead. I assumed that Ben was wrong. I should have paid attention to the show titles. Now I see that they told us. I should have listened!

So, what about "Whatever Happened, Happened"?


----------



## jkeegan (Oct 16, 2000)

I have my settings set up to show the most threads possible in one page and I just want to thank rondotcom for telling Fool Me Twice that he didn't need a reason to post the picture with Juliete's beautiful naked back, because it's meant I've seen that picture over and over again every time someone posts.. Looks like it's every 50 posts, and this will be post 398.. Someone's going to have to reply to them again in......


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

If anyone is interested, there is going to be a community rewatch of all seasons of LOST during the hiatus. Three or four episodes a week followed by blogs and forum discussion. Might be interesting to follow along, even if you don't rewatch all of the episodes.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Rewatch
http://forum.lostpedia.com/lost-rewatch-f66.html
http://twitter.com/lostrewatch
http://www.docarzt.com/lost/lost-news/rewatching-lost-spend-your-summer-with-docarzt-and-friends/


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

By request...



Fool Me Twice said:


> That sounds like an excuse for me to post this pic again.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> If anyone is interested, there is going to be a community rewatch of all seasons of LOST during the hiatus. Three or four episodes a week followed by blogs and forum discussion. Might be interesting to follow along, even if you don't rewatch all of the episodes.
> 
> http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Rewatch
> http://forum.lostpedia.com/lost-rewatch-f66.html
> ...


I was going to do that except for the fact that I had this past season of Lost on my computer (for some reason I didn't put them on DVD). My hard drive died with no backup. Yup.

I have like the last 2 or 3 episodes. Sucks. 

Now if they'd just do what FOX did with 24, we'd have the DVD set already.

Greg


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

gchance said:


> By request...


Oops. You posted one too early. It won't be on the top of the next page until post #401.


----------



## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

Fool Me Twice said:


> If anyone is interested, there is going to be a community rewatch of all seasons of LOST during the hiatus.


gchance is supposed to do this in 2019!


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Hunter Green said:


> gchance is supposed to do this in 2019!


Heck, I did this back in 1979.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> Heck, I did this back in 1979.


You mean you're going to do this in 1979.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> You mean you're going to do this in 1979.


Way to spoil my future past, Rob!


----------



## DVC California (Jun 4, 2004)

DUDE_NJX said:


> I think we should agree on calling the guy anti-Jacob.
> It's less confusing this way.


How about "Mr Loophole"?


----------



## Bryanmc (Sep 5, 2000)

DVC California said:


> How about "Mr Loophole"?


Because then he just sounds like some crappy CPA advertising on late night cable.


----------



## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Hunter Green said:


> gchance is supposed to do this in 2019!


Of course, I have to get the episode titles and OAD's wrong. And of course there'll be a new, great show on TV in 2019 that people will go on and on about how the writers never answer questions in, and I'll be saying look, watch Lost and you'll see what they're getting at. And they'll say oh, we never could get into Lost because it demanded too much attention, yadda yadda yadda.

Don't you love when history repeats itself? 

Greg


----------



## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> I'm starting to think that the Christian Shepherd we've seen on the Island has been Jacob, but BSG or the Smoke Monster.


No, this can't be because as was discussed earlier Christian told Locke to say hello to his son. He wouldn't say this if he were the smoke monster or Jacob.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rinkdog said:


> No, this can't be because as was discussed earlier Christian told Locke to say hello to his son. He wouldn't say this if he were the smoke monster or Jacob.


Unless he knew that Locke would tell Jack about his father, and that it would contribute toward convincing Jack to come back.

Or maybe:


```
Anti-Jacob: Do you know what happened to your father?

Jack: My father is dead!

Anti-Jacob: No, I am your father!

Jack: Noooooooooooooo!

[Jack jumps down a hole leading to the Donkey Wheel.]
```


----------



## danschn (Apr 22, 2004)

jkeegan said:


> As for people saying "these guys (Jacob/AntiJacob) are playing a game, and the people are the pawns", I dunno if I agree with that exact sentiment.. You use pawns and kill them - maybe that's what AntiJacob was doing.. But to me, humans ARE the game.. AntiJacob is very pessimistic about humans and says they always invade, conquer, and destroy, and in the end it always goes bad. Jacob says "there's only one end - everything before that is progress".. Great line, and he's saying that people - humans - are progressing (by becoming less destructive), and he still has hope for them.
> 
> Hell, he even holds out hope that Ben won't go through with trying to kill him.


Because I recognized Jacob immediately as Paul, Rita's sleazy husband, from Dexter, I thought of him in a negative sense.

When Jacob and anti-Jacob had their conversation, through my lens, I saw it as Jacob drawing in the Black Pearl to the island for another one of his games, and anti-Jacob rightfully revolted by the initiation of another round in these repetitions. Anti-Jacob saw this as cruelly manipulating another set of humans by enticing them with the magic of the island until their frailties caused the inevitable progression from cooperation to self-destruction.

This is a grand story of constant manipulation, where Jacob is the ultimate manipulator and the humans who discover the island over the years, the manipulated.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

danschn said:


> Because I recognized Jacob immediately as Paul, Rita's sleazy husband, from Dexter, I thought of him in a negative sense.
> 
> When Jacob and anti-Jacob had their conversation, through my lens, I saw it as Jacob drawing in the Black Pearl to the island for another one of his games, and anti-Jacob rightfully revolted by the initiation of another round in these repetitions. Anti-Jacob saw this as cruelly manipulating another set of humans by enticing them with the magic of the island until their frailties caused the inevitable progression from cooperation to self-destruction.
> 
> This is a grand story of constant manipulation, where Jacob is the ultimate manipulator and the humans who discover the island over the years, the manipulated.


Johnny Depp is on the ship?


----------



## CarynFromHermosa (Sep 26, 2005)

I think there is more to the "re-animated dead people" than anti-Jacob taking their form. One time when the Locke was at Jacob's cabin he saw not just Christian, but Claire as well. She says something like "I'm fine...I'm with him". How does that work?


----------



## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

I just had my blu ray player replaced, so I was able to finish watching seasons 3 and 4 this week, and it does all make sense viewing poor John as a patsy, and most of the apparitions as being controlled by Anti-Jacob.. It was even spookier this time around when Harper popped out of nowhere in the middle of the jungle to convince Juliet that she needed to kill Dan and Charlotte.

The only apparitions that don't seem to be AJ are Christian, Claire, and Horace (him because he led John to the Cabin where Christian and Claire were).

I'm not sure about all of the Walt appearances, it makes some sense that AJ would want them to stop pushing the button too early (though, perhaps not speaking backwards would be a better way to communicate this desire), and when he tells John that he still has work to do, that could be AJ needing him to turn the wheel, so that he could help him return to the island. It's all pretty muddled for me right now.

And Eko is confusing too, mostly since we don't know what they were actually planning for that character. It seems now that he was correct not to follow Smokey at the end, but what about when he had his little battle with John and tried to keep pushing the button--which entity was he following then?

In other news, that recent "Lost ARG" was kind of going nowhere and getting pretty lame, so it's no surprise that it ended up being a hoax. Good, I regretted starting that unnecessary thread and now it can die. Though, I do hope they give the fans something good at Comic-Con this year.


----------



## Church AV Guy (Jan 19, 2005)

Changing the subject slightly: The "enhanced" episodes (the ones with the text info at the bottom of the screen) were being shown for a while, but they stopped at episode eight or so. Does anyone know if they are planning on picking up on these, or was a decision made to have the enhanced content only available on the DVDs? Yes, I know, some people HATE the enhanced episodes, others like them. I was not intending on getting into a discussion on their value, just if anyone knew if they were going to show them?

I don't live and breathe the show, so I find the reminders and information usefel, and not too distracting.


----------



## Alpinemaps (Jul 26, 2004)

Church AV Guy said:


> Changing the subject slightly: The "enhanced" episodes (the ones with the text info at the bottom of the screen) were being shown for a while, but they stopped at episode eight or so. Does anyone know if they are planning on picking up on these, or was a decision made to have the enhanced content only available on the DVDs? Yes, I know, some people HATE the enhanced episodes, others like them. I was not intending on getting into a discussion on their value, just if anyone knew if they were going to show them?
> 
> I don't live and breathe the show, so I find the reminders and information usefel, and not too distracting.


Personally, I enjoy the 'enhanced' episodes. I'm hoping, when this is all over, and we get the 'ultimate' DVD set, that we'll have a 'enhanced' text version of each episode available, that fully spoils. So it can point things out like, 'see that 4 toed statue - that's where Jacob lives'. And stuff like that. (Okay, maybe a little more insight than that)


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## Rinkdog (Dec 21, 2005)

The trailer for the upcoming ABC tv series V has potential spoiler info for Lost regarding a cast member.


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## TheMerk (Feb 26, 2001)

Rinkdog said:


> The trailer for the upcoming ABC tv series V has potential spoiler info for Lost regarding a cast member.


Not neccessarily, according to Ausiello:



Spoiler



However, before you go declaring Juliet DOA from last week's detonated hydrogen bomb, I should point out that this piece of scoop comes with a big but attached: Mitchell's Lost days are not done. Multiple sources confirm that the actress is expected to appear in an unspecified number of episodes next season, so it's entirely possible Juliet survived Jughead and her absence will be explained in another way.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

CarynFromHermosa said:


> I think there is more to the "re-animated dead people" than anti-Jacob taking their form. One time when the Locke was at Jacob's cabin he saw not just Christian, but Claire as well. She says something like "I'm fine...I'm with him". How does that work?


Do we know for sure that Claire is dead? I know that's been the assumption, but I don't think that's ever been definitively answered one way or the other.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

3D said:


> Do we know for sure that Claire is dead? I know that's been the assumption, but I don't think that's ever been definitively answered one way or the other.


Nothing has been confirmed about her fate.


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## danschn (Apr 22, 2004)

Jacob and anti-Jacob. One of them wanted all the Losties to go back to 2007, but two groups ended up in 1977 - those who stayed on the island and flashed there, and those who left the island then when coming back, successfully crashed, then accidently flashed there.

Was ending up in 1977 part of the loophole, or just an accident that didn't violate the loophole, or an intentional attempt to avoid the loophole? And which guy, Jacob or anti-Jacob, worked to orchestrate this, if it was intentional?

The reasons to suspect both were accidents are as follows:

For the Losties left on the island, Ben turned the donkey wheel to move the island, but later Christian told John Locke that he, Locke, was supposed to be the one to turn the wheel. Christian said he spoke for Jacob, but that is unsettled. Ben's turning the wheel set off the accidental flashing. That would imply that Ben was not supposed to leave the island, but rather Locke - who hadn't been told he had to die, or given a mission to get the O6 back. If Locke had followed instructions, Ben would have stayed, continuing as leader, Locke would've been in the dessert, never to return to the island. That was someone's plan, seemingly violated by the group ending in 1977 instead of 2007. Who's plan?

The Oceanic 6 were intent on returning and told (by an ex-Other leader supposedly informed by Dharma research) to recreate the same conditions to get back to the island, to the level of detail of a dead guy and even to get Christian's shoes to put on the current dead guy, Locke. But while it was a good re-creation, it was not good enough, and those mistakes sent several members back in time.

The other "violation" on the plane I can think of is the return of Ben. He admitted to Locke at the end of Season 4 that by turning the donkey wheel to move the island, he could never come back. But he violated whatever rule he cited by conspiring to regroup the O6 and smuggling (so to speak) on board with them. Perhaps his presence on the flight was the catalyst for the flash that sent Jack, Kate and Hurley back 30 years.


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> ```
> Anti-Jacob: No, I am your father!
> 
> Jack: Noooooooooooooo!
> ...


There should be, in the middle there, "Search your heart, you know it to be true"?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

3D said:


> Do we know for sure that Claire is dead? I know that's been the assumption, but I don't think that's ever been definitively answered one way or the other.


Spoiler regarding Claire, and what that might mean for next season's direction:


Spoiler



I heard that Claire is expected to be back on a fairly regular basis next season. Perhaps that means next season will start off with the plane safely landing at LAX and Claire will be eight months pregnant.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

That works for me.


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## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Spoiler regarding Claire, and what that might mean for next season's direction:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I read something similar at the end of last season. My post about whether or not Claire is dead was in response to the following:



CarynFromHermosa said:


> I think there is more to the "re-animated dead people" than anti-Jacob taking their form. One time when the Locke was at Jacob's cabin he saw not just Christian, but Claire as well. She says something like "I'm fine...I'm with him". How does that work?


I had suggested earlier in this thread that BSG (I'm still calling him that ) might be responsible for the visions of dead people that have popped up since the earliest episodes. CarynFromHermosa questioned whether this was the case and cited the meeting at the cabin where Locke encountered Claire and Christian at the same time. I was merely trying to point out that just because Claire had been hanging out with Christian doesn't mean she's dead. Many have assumed that Claire is dead and that the writers will eventually spring this on us as a mind blowing revelation, but as that has yet to occur, her appearance with Christian does not, at this point in time, undermine my theory that BSG and Jacob are responsible for the many visions of the dead that we've seen.

ETA: 300 Posts! Woo Hoo! Go Me! That's alot for only seven and a half years, right? Do I get a shiny new pin or something?


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

Nope. You get a Happy YAMM.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Hunter Green said:


> There should be, in the middle there, "Search your heart, you know it to be true"?


Well, Hurley left it out of his re-write, so ...


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## amory (Jan 24, 2002)

3D said:


> ETA: 300 Posts! Woo Hoo! Go Me! That's alot for only seven and a half years, right? Do I get a shiny new pin or something?


Hmmm. I think 94 posts in seven years gets the lurker award.  But good try.


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## PotentiallyCoherent (Jul 25, 2002)

amory said:


> Hmmm. I think 94 posts in seven years gets the lurker award.  But good try.


Really?


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

There's one vision I'd like to see explained: in the last Lost vignette (Lostcasts? Lost Pieces?) - the little 3 minute stories that appeared online first but are in the S4 DVD - Christian appears to Vincent right after the 815 crash and tells him to "go wake up my son - he has work to do." Vincent bounds off through the jungle and then we see Jack waking up, just like the opening scene of the first episode. If that wasn't Christian, then who would be "playing" him?

(And gee, I'm not racking up the posts at a record rate but I feel positively gabby all of a sudden in comparison ...  )


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

This one is pretty freaking sweet: Lost Remix


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

wprager said:


> Well, Hurley left it out of his re-write, so ...


Whatever Happened, Happened!

Do you hear me, George Lucas? Han fired first! Faraday says so!

Wait, what were we talking about again?


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Hunter Green said:


> There should be, in the middle there, "Search your heart, you know it to be true"?


And then of course, "Join me, and together we can rule this island as father and son."


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

My take:

1. Unfortunately, Juliette a.k.a. Blondie is dead. Dies from massive internal injuries regardless of bomb detonation. She'll be missed.

2. I feel strongly that in the 2010 episodes the Incident will have caused the LOSTies to flash forward to the 'present' but they are still on the island. Sayid is in sad shape. Dunno how he fares. They definitely DO NOT end up in LAX in 2004. No H-bomb went off in the traditional sense. The bomb's fusion core interacted with the Island's strange energy and caused yet another time warp. The LOSTies complete disappearance caused the Richard Rickey Ricardo of that era to believe they all died in the Swan iIncident.

3. Remember how in the flashback Jake touched the 'fallen' (heh) Locke, seemingly bringing him back to life? Wonder if in the final 2010 episodes Jacob, dead in the form we saw but not 'gone' IMO, yet again revives 'Dead-Locke' and exorcizes the black shirt demon?

4. Think in 2010 there'll be big battles between the Others tribe, LOSTies and the casket crew.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

spikedavis said:


> Am I the only one who feels cheated by the flash to white? I mean they spend all season speculating as to if you can actually change the future. They set evreything up and then don't show the result. It's like pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.


This seem to be the end thing, did you all see the end of Supernatural?  I think this is an inside joke on the Sopranos fade to black ending.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> The first three minutes: Out of the park! Jacob is real, and was there to see the Black Rock land. But who was on the Island with him?


My brother and I think this is an older version of Jacob. Remember time travel is a *****.


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## Roadblock (Apr 5, 2006)

Sure Jack & Sawyer, our friend Sayid is dying in the van, but let's take five minutes and talk it over.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

philw1776 said:


> 3. Remember how in the flashback Jake touched the 'fallen' (heh) Locke, seemingly bringing him back to life? Wonder if in the final 2010 episodes Jacob, dead in the form we saw but not 'gone' IMO, yet again revives 'Dead-Locke' and exorcizes the black shirt demon?


No, the very last scene of the series will be Jacob reaching out to touch Jack, before he wakes up after the Oceanic 815 plane crash.
"Sorry, Jack." cut to black.


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## Delta13 (Jan 25, 2003)

Johncv said:


> My brother and I think this is an older version of Jacob. Remember time travel is a *****.


Man, talk about your tricky loopholes!


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## Hunter Green (Feb 22, 2002)

While I don't think I buy the idea that unJacob is Jacob, it brings up an interesting question. Maybe the rule to which the unJacob seeks a loophole is, in fact, the Faraday Postulate. Maybe unJacob knows that he never kills Jacob because one or both of them has information from the future saying that he didn't (and whatever happened, happened). But this way, he can get to be the one to do it without being the one to do it.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Here's an idea: I think Bernard and Rose are the key to the series. At the beginning of this episode, Jacob and BSG indicated that people come to the island, get into conflict, and fight, either within their own group (Rosseau's party), or with others (Dharma vs Hostiles, Oceanic vs Others, etc.) Bernard and Rose are the only ones to just quit the conflict. I think that will play a big part next season.


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## mqpickles (Nov 11, 2004)

Okay, very late to the conversation because I waited a week to watch the finale. I was trying to wait to watch with my husband, but I didn't quite make it. So here are my late thoughts. (If I'm repeating someone, forgive me. I've read the whole thread, but my memory isn't what it used to be.)

First, Unlike some here, I'm not worried that next season won't focus on the original Losties. Probably not a spoiler, but just in case:



Spoiler



When they show 2010, then "Destiny Found" that can only refer to this group of people we've been following who have been LOST.



Second, the reverse logo has to mean something is different now, but what? It's still possible they changed the past. More likely that that "what happened, happened," and they've always been part of The Incident, and now they've jumped to 2007. (One way or another I think they have jumped to 2007.)

Third, I agree Locke didn't get a good send-off, so I'll be disappointed if "dead is dead" and that's all there is for him. The idea that Ben has just been a dupe all along is also a bit disappointing, so I'm hoping there's more there as well.

Fourth, I thought the phrase "what's done is done" (used by Sawyer in this episode) is interesting. It's very similar to "what happened, happened," but with a different focus. "What happened, happened" means you can't change the past. To me, "what's done is done" means you shouldn't, even if you can.

Finally, I want to thank everyone here for adding to my enjoyment (and understanding) of Season 5.


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## philw1776 (Jan 19, 2002)

Philosofy said:


> Here's an idea: I think Bernard and Rose are the key to the series. At the beginning of this episode, Jacob and BSG indicated that people come to the island, get into conflict, and fight, either within their own group (Rosseau's party), or with others (Dharma vs Hostiles, Oceanic vs Others, etc.) *Bernard and Rose are the only ones to just quit the conflict. I think that will play a big part next season*.


But...how can they? They're RETIRED!!!


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

amory said:


> Hmmm. I think 94 posts in seven years gets the lurker award.  But good try.


O.T. Well after 2002 there hasn't been much to talk about.  Still I marvel at those with 15,000 posts in a year or two.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Fleegle said:


> So Jacob WAS communicating with Ben indirectly, using Richard as a proxy.


Richard was passing messages to Ben. We have no way of knowing whether or not those communications originated from Jacob.


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## Fool Me Twice (Jul 6, 2004)

Mesmerizing, no?


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## spikedavis (Nov 23, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Mesmerizing, no?


That's the breast picture I've ever seen of her.


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

spikedavis said:


> That's the breast picture I've ever seen of her.


Don't get me started with Gia again.

I like her more with short hair:


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Fool Me Twice said:


> Mesmerizing, no?


What was that? Did you say something?


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

I still think Kate is by far the hottest babe on the show.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

Anyone else get the e-mail forward described in this snopes article?

http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/brazil737.asp


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

aindik said:


> Anyone else get the e-mail forward described in this snopes article?
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/brazil737.asp


Thank goodness no. My relatives are gullible for most hoaxes, but I didn't see that one.


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## aindik (Jan 23, 2002)

The news media fell for it in Bolivia.


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## tewcewl (Dec 18, 2004)

Wow. One would think they'd remember that it happened during NIGHT TIME, not during the day as is clearly shown in the pictures.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

I just finished the Finale. This show is such a mind f&*k. I completely missed out on many of the points made here. I really hope, at some point, there is like a 2 hour clip show or something where DL & CC explain the whole story from beginning to end, with all the little things that most ordinary fold would have not caught onto. 

These two guys are just amazing storytellers. I don't know that I've seen another show that was so well planned out where they knew exactly what the end game was and how they were going to get there. Most other shows seem like they are making up the story as they go along season to season or even episode to episode. The theological, historical, and biblical references are so far over my head but their wide understanding of it all makes for a really great show. It's obvious they know what they are doing since they constantly reference previous events, which when first seen seemed like bizarre throwaway incidents.


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## robbhimself (Sep 13, 2006)

WhiskeyTango said:


> It's obvious they know what they are doing since they constantly reference previous events, which when first seen seemed like bizarre throwaway incidents.


yeah, it really is.. i saw one episode the other night when hugo and sayid are sitting on the beach with the fixed radio and that old song comes on, and hugo references time travel.

wouldn't be surprised if the last shot of the show is hugo standing on that spot on the beach with a boombox over his head john cusak style playing that song trying to send a message to himself haha (i am just kidding, don't want to get dinged for a spoiler )


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