# Everytime I consider TIVO the Monthly sub Fee stops me.



## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

Several years ago I had a TIVO on Direct TV and liked it much better than the DTV DVR Boxes at the time. I am not longer on DTV as have move onto Verizon Fios. I have used Sage TV with extenders but it has never been fully trouble free so I also have a Fios Motorola DVR to keep my wife happy. I still use Sage for my personal use though.
Recently I have been re-evaluating all my options and have considered moving to either MediaCenter & Xbox360 extenders or Possibly TIVO. The problem I have with TIVO is I hate paying monthly Sub of Rental fees for a guide and or the DVR. I am very interested in the new XL4 Tuner TIVO and the rumored New IP TV extender Boxes. But I would be totally against paying another Sub Fee for the extenders I would be willing to pay up to $150.00 apiece for the Boxes if they were fee free.
On the other hand I can completely build a Media Center Box for about 1/2 of the cost of a new xl4 tuner TIVO & and the Lifetime Sub. So once again I get stuck on the Tivo Sub fees ??

Edited: I already own a Silicon Dust HDHR(2 tuner clear Qam) & HDHR-Prime(3 tuner cable card) thus the cost difference between TIVO & MCE build.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

i think you answered your own question. If you want trouble free operation then you will pay for tivo. If you want to keep your wife happy then pay the extra money and get the tivo. If you can "get away" with it then spend less and be ready for the unhappy wife.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Lifetime = no fee.

If you can build a cheaper box that does what you want then you should. As mentioned above, TiVo (IMHO), fulfills the WAF better than any other box I could build or buy.


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

daveak said:


> Lifetime = no fee.
> 
> If you can build a cheaper box that does what you want then you should. As mentioned above, TiVo (IMHO), fulfills the WAF better than any other box I could build or buy.


Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


The resale of a last gen TiVo with lifetime sells for just about the cost of lifetime service... So your your next gen product is covered when you are ready to upgrade!

People keep saying they would upgrade if they could transfer their lifetime service - funny thing is - you can!

Sell that lifetimed S3 model for ~ $400 on eBay and you are done!


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ignore what they call the fee. There is no service fee. There is no guide fee.
Like every other product in america that the government doesn't regulate they price it at what the market will bear (sadly in tivo's case that isn't enough to really make money).

Anyway- it's just an installment plan. THe box costs 800 (or whatever the number is now a days) and that is what it is. You can pay ~$400 + ~400 or ~400 plus never ending interest payments of ~20 a month forever. Or any one of another installment plans they have.

Pull up your shorts- ignore the words involved and decide if you want to pay the premium that tivo costs (whatever they call it). It's really that simple. Words are words. Money is money.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


You are just wrong, period. My lifetime TiVoHDs although over 3 years old are still worth around $300 each and still pretty good. TiVo plus lifetime service is the way to go and the premium compared to other DVRs is easily justified. I have been using TiVo since Oct. 2000 and never paid a penny of monthly TiVo service, just purchased 3 lifetime subscriptions in total.

I do see whining about the monthly service and lifetime fee often but it makes no sense to me, no other company offers a comparable product for less money, so TiVo sure isn't over priced.


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## rboutin2 (Oct 27, 2011)

i feel ya in a way. i didnt want to pay the monthly fee either when i considered tivo.I bit the bullet, got a regular premiere, and have fallen in love. I am so happy with my tivo, that i went out and got a second one so i could multi room stream, and watch it in both my bedroom and living room. My mother in law got a cable box from the cable co, and i gotta admit, it is a piece of junk compared to my tivos. I say go for it, pay the fees, or get lifetime if u dont want. Then try going back to a cable dvr, and ull miss ur tivo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Especially since the OP is on FiOS they should get the TiVos. I have two Elites on FiOS and they are working great. And with my lifetime boxes, when a new model comes out, I will just sell my existing boxes to cover 80% to 100% of the cost of a new box with Lifetime. When you factor in the resale price, the break even point is much, much, much lower. 

over the last 4.5+ years on FiOS I've used S3 boxes, TiVo HD boxes, two tuner Premiere boxes and now Elite boxes. Each time selling my older lifetime boxes to cover 805 to 100% of the cost of teh new boxes with lifetime. Lifetime is really the best way to go.

Although I do have one Premiere on monthly, but that has a low monthly fee of only $6.95. I'll keep using it until they try to raise the fee or an S5 box is released.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I was introduced to TiVo by my BIL in 2005. He gave me an S2 for Christmas. I was hooked with the 7 day free trial. I was just getting out of paying off credit cards and was sick of paying monthly payments on anything (other than car payments and rent), and I opted for the lifetime subscription. 
At the time, the cost of lifetime subscription was comparable to the cost of DVD recorders with a hard drive, and as I was looking to upgrade from VCR recording of TV shows, TiVo was the perfect solution. 
Every Tivo I have purchased since included the lifetime subscription.
Sure, the possibility existed where you could build your own DVR via an HTPC, but I considered HTPC's "high end", and it would have cost me as much (if not more) to build my own DVR.
To me, it is a no brainer. Cost of building a DVR via HTPC vs. the cost of a Tivo with lifetime sub is comparable. Cost of maintaining that HTPC vs. the Tivo? That is for you to decide.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


I'm with Chris on this. As long as you are buying the TiVo for what it does today and do not have to have the latest greatest eature then I would expect it to last far longer than 3 years. We've had our original S3's with lifetime now for 5 1/2 years and I don't see any reason at the moment to replace them with a newer model. Before that we had our S1's for 7 1/2 years and HD was what prompted us to move to the S3's.

Scott


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

davefred99 said:


> In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


IIRC Tivo first came out in 1999. That's 13 years ago or "4+ lifetimes" for something better or more desirable. If you're against paying the monthly service fee or lifetime then why are you even considering it? Prioritize your needs/wants and determine what's most important to you and you'll have your answer.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


Statements like this are nothing more than saying that TiVo costs too much. Given that deciding something costs too much is a very personal decision I never really understand why people want to post that info unless they don't actually believe it and are looking to be talked into the purchase.

So my advise is to go ahead and buy it with lifetime its really a great deal !! I have had 5 TiVos over time, 4 with lifetime and have been very happy with my purchases.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


The payback is much faster than 12 months. The residual value of the lifetime sub is better than 75% of cost. Near 100% if bought through a multi service discount. Used tivos with lifetime service are easy to sell.


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## dirtypacman (Feb 3, 2004)

As some others have already pointed out - the resale value of a Tivo with lifetime sub is still good. That may be your best option - 2 of the units I have are on lifetime. I pay for others monthly but can drop those if I ever decide the value is not there.


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

jcthorne said:


> The payback is much faster than 12 months. The residual value of the lifetime sub is better than 75% of cost. Near 100% if bought through a multi service discount. Used tivos with lifetime service are easy to sell.


That is the way I look at it as well. With a TiVo Premiere, the basic DVR functions should work at least as well as the best competition three years from now and will likely beat the best competition. I would think a TiVo Premiere with lifetime could be sold at a price that meant the lifetime paid for itself or better anytime after the first few months. In 3 years, lifetime owners are going to be about $200 better off than those selecting month to month. Time value of money changes that a little but unless someone can get a great return on alternative investments, lifetime is the best option by far.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> i think you answered your own question. If you want trouble free operation then you will pay for tivo. If you want to keep your wife happy then pay the extra money and get the tivo. If you can "get away" with it then spend less and be ready for the unhappy wife.


Define "trouble-free." I've had as many issues with Tivos over the years as I've had with my HTPC. I have yet to find a consumer electronics device that is 100% trouble-free and any claims that a Tivo is bullet-proof is pure BS.

Windows 7 Media Center is extremely stable and just plain works as long as you don't try and tinker with it once you've got a stable setup, which is actually quite easy to achieve these days. The OP already has the components necessary to build himself a Tivo Killer so I say go for it. I finally pulled the plug on my last Tivo a couple of weeks ago and never regretted it for an instant. My wife, who has zero patience for anything that doesn't work perfectly, uses a SFF HTPC for watching TV in the family room on a daily basis and doesn't see any difference between the PC and the Tivo from a user's standpoint. If my wife can accept it then anyone can.

That being said, if you decide to get a Tivo then go for the lifetime sub. It will pay for itself in the long run.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


IOW, you are unhappy because TiVo wil not sell you the box for less than it cost them to make it.

Boo Hoo.

TiVo offers you the option of spreading out the cost of the unit over time or of paying up front. Few, if any, other companies offer that flexibility. Moxi sold their unit for a bit more than the cost of a TiVo + PLS, and look where it got them. As it is TiVo is bringing in less revenue than they are spending on making and distributing the boxes. Exactly why do you think they should sell it for even less? The fact the cost is split up into two separate chunks - hardware and service - is in the context of this discussion irrelevent.


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## rhettf (Apr 5, 2012)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


How much have DVR's changed in the past decade? Not by much compared to the rest of the tech industry.

The TV industry is notorious for moving like a snail on technology because they make more money in there current model and right now TiVo is the only thing that truly bridges the cap between the old way of Linear TV and the new way IP/onDemand.

What more are you expecting from your TiVo in 3 years? In the past decade the industry really just went from SD to HD and while we will be going to Ultra HD in the future its still 3-4 years out. From the peoples experiences in the post above you will pay less money by having a TiVo with Lifetime for 3-4 years then selling it used for a new 4K TiVo Box. Which is probably when I will get a new box myself since the current ones do HD just fine.


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## GoEagles (Dec 2, 2006)

The only way I would consider buying/buidling a HTPC is if it were under $600 dollars:

$49 - $99 Tivo Premiere
$100 - 2TB Green WD Drive
$399 Lifetime Subscription

The dual tuners are at least $99. A 500GB hard drive might go for $50 - $75. A good slim HTPC case is $100 or so. Not including memory, motherboard & CPU. I happened to like WMC, and you have to add that cost in as well.


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## Bierboy (Jun 12, 2004)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


I've had my original S3 now for coming up on six years. Other than the interface being slower than my HD (or newer models), it does everything I want it to...and flawlessly. I guess I'm easily satisfied, but I suspect there are MANY others like me who don't believe that a 3 year turnaround on lifetime payback is too long...


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


The problem with looking at it like that is that it doesn't really work that way, at least not mentally. Long before your first year is over, you'll no longer be feeling the sting of paying so much upfront for lifetime and everything after that is just as good as free.

You can always sell the Tivo in 3 years and recoup a significant portion of the lifetime cost. And in line with my first statement, you won't look at that money as being replacement money to fill the void in your bank account, you'll be looking at it as bonus money that you didn't have the day before.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Happy with WMC myself. Snappy interface, 4 tuners and large storage capacity. 360 as extender works great. And that's wirelessly streaming to it.

Many aspects of interface and other media functionality better than Tivo.

Tivo probably better at some of the recording and season pass stuff.

I wouldn't be comfortable giving a WMC pc to a household without a "techie" as I have encountered a few issues that the "non-techie" wouldn't have been able to solve.


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> Define "trouble-free." I've had as many issues with Tivos over the years as I've had with my HTPC. I have yet to find a consumer electronics device that is 100% trouble-free and any claims that a Tivo is bullet-proof is pure BS.
> 
> Windows 7 Media Center is extremely stable and just plain works as long as you don't try and tinker with it once you've got a stable setup, which is actually quite easy to achieve these days. The OP already has the components necessary to build himself a Tivo Killer so I say go for it. I finally pulled the plug on my last Tivo a couple of weeks ago and never regretted it for an instant. My wife, who has zero patience for anything that doesn't work perfectly, uses a SFF HTPC for watching TV in the family room on a daily basis and doesn't see any difference between the PC and the Tivo from a user's standpoint. If my wife can accept it then anyone can.
> 
> That being said, if you decide to get a Tivo then go for the lifetime sub. It will pay for itself in the long run.


This is what I was getting at. I already have working Sage TV HTPC Server setup that is working but some of the components are getting old. Sage TV is no longer in Business as it was bought up by Google. The future of SageTv is uncertain so I am once again contemplating my options. WMC is the closest Full Feature HTPC/DVR option to Sage and most of my original and many newer components like the HDHR-Prime (cablecard network tuner) can be recycled. If I were to go this way I would only need a new Mob,CPU & Memory + a new case. My best estimate of cost would be about $400 total including a new win7/MCE license. I would also need at least one Xbox360 ($199.00 new)for as an extender as well. So my total outlay would be about $600.00.

To do the same with Tivo I would be looking at Minimum 2 Tivo Premier Boxes @ $99.00 refurbished + one original lifetime Tivo sub for $499 + one second Lifetime sub @ $399.00. for a total outlay of about $1100.00. My situation is different than someone starting from scratch but that is not my concern. For me it is about pure economics plus keeping my wife happy. I am not concerned with issues such as the profit margin of TIVO i care about my bottom line. If Tivo can not sell there product at a profit then they need to figure that out for themselves, the market will decide if there price points make sense.

Tivo will also have a new competitor soon in the Ceton Q and Ceton extenders. They are also MCE based and will be fully compatible with PC based systems as well. It will be interesting to see were they price these devices as compared to TIVO.

So bottom line I am leaning toward sticking with the HTPC/DVR route but am also interested to see what TIVO does with there rumored IP client products as well.


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## GoEagles (Dec 2, 2006)

I just read about the Ceton Q. Six tuners is not bad in a nice slim package. I would imagine you could hook extra storage via USB or eSATA. If I had to guess, it would come in around $800 or so. Six tuners would be so nice. Drooling already....


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Hopefully TiVo comes out with an XL6.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

GoEagles said:


> $100 - 2TB Green WD Drive


Where can you get a 2 TB drive for $100 now? I'm serious. They seem to be SLOWLY creeping down.. but are significantly above $100.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

GoEagles said:


> The only way I would consider buying/buidling a HTPC is if it were under $600 dollars:
> 
> $49 - $99 Tivo Premiere
> $100 - 2TB Green WD Drive
> ...


Check out some of the pre-built HTPCs from ASRock or Zotac. They sell numerous small-form factor HTPCs in all price ranges. I recently built a mini-iTX HTPC for about $200 using an ASRock E350M motherboard with integrated CPU/GPU and USB3 ports. I already had a spare 750GB hard drive and an extra Win 7 Home Premium license so all I had to buy was 2GB of RAM and an optical drive. I use it for an HDTV I put in a spare bedroom along with a HDHomeRun Prime that's shared between multiple PCs and HDTVs.

FYI - woot.com has the SiliconDust HDHomeRun ATSC/QAM dual networked tuner on sale today for $69 plus $5 shipping. I recently purchase a used HDHomeRun dual tuner model for about $55 including shipping so your $99 estimate is a bit off.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

mattack said:


> Where can you get a 2 TB drive for $100 now? I'm serious. They seem to be SLOWLY creeping down.. but are significantly above $100.


They have some 2TB drives on Amazon and Newegg for $110. Although I didn't see any for $100 right now. But with mothers day coming up there could be some sales.

Even Best Buy has them down to around $120 now.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Just FYI - Microsoft's been having a LOT of issues with the guide data lately on MCE. As in "it don't update". And some people have ran out of guide data waiting for Microsoft to fix it (and have considered paying a $20/month third party guide data provider).

For me, I was lucky and got down to 3 days of guide before it finally gave me a little more. 

The only reason I use MCE instead of my TiVo? My cable provider went all digital, encrypted all the channels, and don't do cablecard. However, I use TiVo as it's guide and season passes have so far been far superior (I use it to double-check my MCE recordings to make sure I get all the programs I watch). Because in the end, the TiVo's scheduler for me has been far more reliable and I've had less issues with it.

And MCE is a HUGE step up from my only other option - cable provider DVR, which is a POS - crappy UI, guide data is lost on power cycle, recording schedule is lost on power cycle, etc. 

TiVo also seems to get more guide data than MCE - my TiVos consistently get more days of guide than MCE (I have to manually dump my TiVo's To Do list and make sure MCE is recording everything properly - it still misses shows for me, and my MCE never has guide for the last few days TiVo does).

Yes, I miss my TiVo. MCE is a substitute in a sense, it's still way better than the crap the cable companies call a PVR. But if my TiVos could work with the signal these days, I'd jump all over it. And let's not forget web scheduling. Sure MCE has it through addons, but man, you have to do so much to get it to work. For TiVo, I just go to TiVo.com pick the show and I'm done.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> They have some 2TB drives on Amazon and Newegg for $110. Although I didn't see any for $100 right now. But with mothers day coming up there could be some sales.
> 
> Even Best Buy has them down to around $120 now.


Newegg is running a Samsung 2TB for $99 now.

http://promotions.newegg.com/neemail/guerrilla/LP/index-landing050912.html?nm_mc=EMC-GD050912&cm_mmc=EMC-GD050912-_-index-_-Header-_-ClickHere​


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf said:


> Just FYI - Microsoft's been having a LOT of issues with the guide data lately on MCE. As in "it don't update". And some people have ran out of guide data waiting for Microsoft to fix it (and have considered paying a $20/month third party guide data provider).


If they're waiting for Microsoft to fix it they may be waiting a long time. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with Zap2it, not Microsoft. I've had a couple of instances where I almost ran out of guide data, but it was updated before it ever ran out completely. I've had my HTPCs running for about five years now and never ran completely out of guide data. FWIW, my Tivos had the same issue on more than one occasion.



Worf said:


> Yes, I miss my TiVo. MCE is a substitute in a sense, it's still way better than the crap the cable companies call a PVR. But if my TiVos could work with the signal these days, I'd jump all over it. And let's not forget web scheduling. Sure MCE has it through addons, but man, you have to do so much to get it to work. For TiVo, I just go to TiVo.com pick the show and I'm done.


If you're asking if Tivo can work with digital cable, then the answer is yes. However, if your provider doesn't support cablecards then there's not much you can do. I thought all providers were required to support them, but I'm not entirely sure on that issue.

There are methods for remote scheduling with WMC, but they can be a bit involved. In retrospect, I used to have to hack my Tivos just to get half the features that now come standard with the newer models. There was far more work involved in hacking a Tivo than setting up an app on a PC. I actually do far less tweaking on my PC than I used to with my older Tivos.


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## larrs (May 2, 2005)

jcthorne said:


> The payback is much faster than 12 months. The residual value of the lifetime sub is better than 75% of cost. Near 100% if bought through a multi service discount. Used tivos with lifetime service are easy to sell.


I sold two series 3 boxes this year and got $375 for one and $350 for the second. I had paid around $450 for one and about $800 for the second (original S3 OLED) including lifetime. I used the OLED box since early 2007 and the other since 2008. As some have said, I was almost paid in full for the lifetime and had to "eat" the price of the box.

However, doing the math they cost me about $6.75 for one and $2.15 for the other per month of usage.

Not a bad deal given my cable company charges $15.99 per month for an HD DVR with 20 hours of recording time- no MRS, TTG, etc.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

GoEagles said:


> The only way I would consider buying/buidling a HTPC is if it were under $600 dollars:
> 
> $49 - $99 Tivo Premiere
> $100 - 2TB Green WD Drive
> ...


And dont forget the cost of electricity, I have yet to see a good running HTPC running 24/7 for 25-30 watts.


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> FWIW, my Tivos had the same issue on more than one occasion.


I have had Tivos since my Sony series one in 2000. While the quantity of guide data has varied from time to time, it has NEVER dropped below 7 days unless I was having network or phone issues. And my Sony series one used the 800 dial in number for years until I set it up for network access. Did have a failed modem or 2 back then but it was not a lack if guide data issue.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

I tend to look at it as you get what you pay for. TWC charges $19.99 per month for a whole home DVR, which is essentially what a Premier is. There is no discount for a second or third one with TWC, and I think we can all agree Tivo is better than Navigator. I think it is nice that Tivo offers the option of buying lifetime service as well.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

jcthorne said:


> And dont forget the cost of electricity, I have yet to see a good running HTPC running 24/7 for 25-30 watts.


True, but you can configure a PC to go into sleep mode when not in use and wake automatically when needed for recording whereas a Tivo runs 24/7 with no option to shut it off or spin down the drive without pulling the plug. I won't argue that a PC can be as miserly with power usage as a Tivo, but if set up properly, the difference in impact on your electric bill will be minimal.


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

mr.unnatural said:


> If they're waiting for Microsoft to fix it they may be waiting a long time. I'm pretty sure it's an issue with Zap2it, not Microsoft. I've had a couple of instances where I almost ran out of guide data, but it was updated before it ever ran out completely. I've had my HTPCs running for about five years now and never ran completely out of guide data. FWIW, my Tivos had the same issue on more than one occasion.


Perhaps, but I've honestly never noticed on my TiVo - its scheduler seems to pick stuff up properly. WMC for me doesn't, so I'm constantly having to add shows to record because the season passes don't quite pick up the episodes.



> If you're asking if Tivo can work with digital cable, then the answer is yes. However, if your provider doesn't support cablecards then there's not much you can do. I thought all providers were required to support them, but I'm not entirely sure on that issue.


You are correct - in the US. In Canada, there are no such pesky rules, so it's anything goes for cable providers. In fact, they often refuse to activate cable boxes that you didn't buy from them (or a reseller) - if it isn't a serial number they registered, they won't activate it. (Might be something to watch out for when they try to curtail the FCC's powers.



> There are methods for remote scheduling with WMC, but they can be a bit involved. In retrospect, I used to have to hack my Tivos just to get half the features that now come standard with the newer models. There was far more work involved in hacking a Tivo than setting up an app on a PC. I actually do far less tweaking on my PC than I used to with my older Tivos.


True, but in this day and age, I've been web-scheduling my TiVos for years. My WMC didn't come with that sort of functionality built in, and I do miss it - having to set alarms to remind myself to schedule recordings is iffy.

Right now, my TiVos try to catch recordings they can never record, but that's OK because I cross-check my TiVo's to-do list with WMC's to ensure I get all the TV. Seems odd that what TiVo flags as "new episode", WMC flags as "repeat". TiVo's more right than wrong so I force the recording, but what a PITA.


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## Lars_J (Feb 1, 2005)

Why do I pay for TiVo? *Because it just plain works.* Easy to use. My wife loves it. The kids too.

Maybe I've been lucky... Some people report lots of crashes. But I'm on my 3rd TiVo box now (customer for 8 yrs), and they have all worked really well, with crashes being very rare. (and none since the last software update)

CableCo DVR's are junk. I've used them. I've built plenty of computers on my own - so I could easily build myself a HTPC, but why do it and deal with windows, when I can get something that just works out of the box, with virtually no intervention?

You get what you pay for.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Worf said:


> You are correct - in the US. In Canada, there are no such pesky rules, so it's anything goes for cable providers.


Canada? Who said anything about Canada?



> True, but in this day and age, I've been web-scheduling my TiVos for years. My WMC didn't come with that sort of functionality built in, and I do miss it - having to set alarms to remind myself to schedule recordings is iffy.


Web scheduling is one of the features I do miss with WMC, although I rarely used it in the past. Before I switched to Win 7 and WMC I was using BeyondTV for recording, which did have a web-scheduling feature. I tend to know what I want to record well in advance so I don't have to deal with last-minute or remote scheduling. The one big drawback of web scheduling is that you still have to set it up on-line the day before so the DVR can contact HQ for the updated guide data and any recording schedule inputs. I believe there's a way to contact a WMC PC remotely for last minute scheduling changes, which you could never do with a Tivo.



> Right now, my TiVos try to catch recordings they can never record, but that's OK because I cross-check my TiVo's to-do list with WMC's to ensure I get all the TV. Seems odd that what TiVo flags as "new episode", WMC flags as "repeat". TiVo's more right than wrong so I force the recording, but what a PITA.


That's interesting because I see the exact opposite. WMC tends to record more shows because they lack the "Repeat" flag in the guide. In fact, I get lots of shows listed that lack the detailed program description initially but it eventually fills in as the air date approaches. These shows all appear new to WMC until the listing is updated.

I've never seen a new episode of any show I record flagged as a repeat, unless it's not the first airing of the show that week. Many of the cable stations air new episodes mutiple times during the week they air for the first time. Technically, any airing of a show beyond the original air date is a repeat and will get flagged as such in the guide.

New shows broadcast on the original air date aren't flagged at all so WMC records them according to the record settings configured for that series. Only shows with the Repeat flag don't get recorded if you've specified new recordings only. Shows with generic descriptions instead of specific episode metadata are considered new shows and will get recorded unless the data gets updated and flagged as a repeat prior to the date and time it's aired. You and I probably aren't recording all of the same shows so I can't speak for every one of them in the guide. Perhaps you should reconsider what you're watching.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

You can web schedule WMC with Remote Potato, but you have to be willing to forward a port from the internet to your internal WMC server, and then set a strong user/password.


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## stlbluesfan74 (May 2, 2012)

davefred99 said:


> Lifetime = Upfront Fee ( about 3yrs payback) = Sucks
> If the payback was more like 12-18 mos + the current cost of the box I would be all over it. In 3 years there will likely be something better or more desirable. In the tech world that is a lifetime.


Exactly! That is why I opted for the monthly fee rather than the lifetime fee.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

stlbluesfan74 said:


> Exactly! That is why I opted for the monthly fee rather than the lifetime fee.


The only fault with that logic is that the monthly fee over a 3-year period will probably exceed what you'd pay for the lifetime sub. Tivos without lifetime subs are generally worth less than the hard drive itself. With a lifetime sub on the unit you'll recoup most of your investment in the lifetime fee. With a monthly subscription you get essentially zero return on your investment. The hardware is pretty much a financial loss in either case.

It's kind of like renting an apartment vs. having a mortgage on a house. When the lease is up on the apartment you move out with nothing to show for it other than a depleted checking account. With a house you get your money back and any equity that's accrued minus the original cost of the house and closing costs. Of course there are other considerations with owning a house so it's not a perfect analogy, but you get the general idea.



slowbiscuit said:


> You can web schedule WMC with Remote Potato, but you have to be willing to forward a port from the internet to your internal WMC server, and then set a strong user/password.


That is correct. I believe you can also stream recordings and videos from your PC to any portable device (or possibly just your smart phone or tablet) using Remote Potato as well.


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## Emacee (Dec 15, 2000)

Of course, who wouldn't rather get a free lunch? In the real world you get what you pay for.
Consider and compare alternatives: 
Monthly fee for the cable company's DVR (multiply by 36)
Lifetime Tivo subscription plus cost of the box and cable card.
How do the two totals compare.

Also compare the cost of a Tivo subscription to what you used to pay for a TV Guide subscription (or for the daily and Sunday paper with TV listings). After all, much of what you are paying for is an on-screen TV Guide.

Check the Tivo website clearance center. You can almost certainly save money on hardware. Search online for discount coupons for the subscription. They happen from time to time.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I just upgrade the memory on my computer and it broke playready microsofts drm program. any hardwear changes brakes the drm forceing a reinstall of windows. I think even a harddrive change will brake windows drm forceing a reinstall of windows.

It took me about 2 hours to fix the playready problem on my computer.
If i had a family i would go with the tivo. I still have my tivo running just incase i give up on wmc



mr.unnatural said:


> True, but you can configure a PC to go into sleep mode when not in use and wake automatically when needed for recording whereas a Tivo runs 24/7 with no option to shut it off or spin down the drive without pulling the plug. I won't argue that a PC can be as miserly with power usage as a Tivo, but if set up properly, the difference in impact on your electric bill will be minimal.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

stlbluesfan74 said:


> Exactly! That is why I opted for the monthly fee rather than the lifetime fee.


Very shortsighted for all the reasons mentioned, but not unusual here.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tootal2 said:


> I just upgrade the memory on my computer and it broke playready microsofts drm program. any hardwear changes brakes the drm forceing a reinstall of windows. I think even a harddrive change will brake windows drm forceing a reinstall of windows.
> 
> It took me about 2 hours to fix the playready problem on my computer.
> If i had a family i would go with the tivo. I still have my tivo running just incase i give up on wmc


Changing a hard drive won't have any affect on your system. Changing memory or CPUs will, as you have already discovered. HTPCs require very little memory unless you're using extenders. You should be able to get away with about 2GB for most setups. I think the general rule is an additional 500MB for each extender.

My system is overkill with 8GB, but at least I won't have to worry about breaking PlayReady anymore. I went through that with my last build when I kept swapping out memory DIMMs and CPUs trying to isolate a problem I was having. I was unaware of the DRM issues when changing hardware at the time, but I found out about it fairly quickly. It turned out that I had two bad motherboards and some bad memory. I had never experienced hardware issues on this scale before in all the years I have been building my own PCs and it was quite frustrating.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

mr.unnatural said:


> ... It turned out that I had two bad motherboards and some bad memory. I had never experienced hardware issues on this scale before in all the years I have been building my own PCs and it was quite frustrating.


Ya when I used to work in IT it was easy to figure out what part wasn't working on a dead PC or to build my own system. I had dozens of the same part to swap out to find bad ones. Now it isn't so much fun.

About 1.5 years ago I was building a low end HTPC to connect to my TV to play with streaming. I could not get it to boot and one by one purchased a new motherboard, CPU, Power supply, memory until I finally had almost enough parts to build another PC and I still couldn't figure out what was bad - it ended up being the switch on the case. So I ended up with 2 new low end computers instead of one (which made my mother happy as I gave her my older PC which was a pretty good upgrade for her). Since then I have also had one video card go bad.

I spent enough time and extra money to make me think it's time to stop building PCs. I could still see it for custom builds like high end gaming, servers, or custom HTPCs were you pay extra when you buy one but for run of the mill PCs it really doesn't make sense to build one anymore.

For what I use my home computer for I don't need much so I am likely set for a few years, by then a laptop or tablet with an external keyboard/mouse/monitor maybe all that I need/want. So I think my days of building PCs is about over.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I play games on this computer so i need a lot of memory. My computer makes xbox and ps3 look very bad

why would changing memory or cpu brake drm on windows? I guess ms thinks a memory hack can let you copy shows. but i dont see how thats possible



mr.unnatural said:


> Changing a hard drive won't have any affect on your system. Changing memory or CPUs will, as you have already discovered. HTPCs require very little memory unless you're using extenders. You should be able to get away with about 2GB for most setups. I think the general rule is an additional 500MB for each extender.
> 
> My system is overkill with 8GB, but at least I won't have to worry about breaking PlayReady anymore. I went through that with my last build when I kept swapping out memory DIMMs and CPUs trying to isolate a problem I was having. I was unaware of the DRM issues when changing hardware at the time, but I found out about it fairly quickly. It turned out that I had two bad motherboards and some bad memory. I had never experienced hardware issues on this scale before in all the years I have been building my own PCs and it was quite frustrating.


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## stlbluesfan74 (May 2, 2012)

slowbiscuit said:


> Very shortsighted for all the reasons mentioned, but not unusual here.


No not really shortsighted. But thanks for trying. That's your opinion which I don't happen to agree with. So should I stoop to your level and call your opinion stupid?


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

You can't refute the logic, man - opinion or not, its based on good reasoning. Lifetime service with MSD (or the well-known discount code) is $400 and you get most if not all of that back if you ever upgrade. It takes, what, 2 years or so for it to pay for itself vs. monthly? Tivos will easily last that long and will not be obsolete after that time.

If you enjoy the cell phone model, rock on, but for Tivos it's not a good logical choice unless you don't have the upfront cash.


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## stlbluesfan74 (May 2, 2012)

slowbiscuit said:


> You can't refute the logic, man - opinion or not, its based on good reasoning. Lifetime service with MSD (or the well-known discount code) is $400 and you get most if not all of that back if you ever upgrade. It takes, what, 2 years or so for it to pay for itself vs. monthly? Tivos will easily last that long and will not be obsolete after that time.
> 
> If you enjoy the cell phone model, rock on, but for Tivos it's not a good logical choice unless you don't have the upfront cash.


No I can refute. Anyone can refute. In my case I feel like I will be upgrading to a new unit within three years. Actually it takes around three years to pay for itself not two. Unless you got some kind of lifetime "deal".

Also, I have negleted to mention I am currently on the fence regarding Tivo. It is kind of in a trial basis right now. I still have Directv. Considering dumping them.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

stlbluesfan74 said:


> No I can refute. Anyone can refute. In my case I feel like I will be upgrading to a new unit within three years. Actually it takes around three years to pay for itself not two. Unless you got some kind of lifetime "deal".
> 
> Also, I have negleted to mention I am currently on the fence regarding Tivo. It is kind of in a trial basis right now. I still have Directv. Considering dumping them.


I sold 1.5 year old Lifetime Premieres last year to cover the cost of a new lifetime four tuner box when the Elite was first released. They most definitely paid for themselves in less than two years. Since the sales of two, two tuner boxes, covered 100% of the cost of a new lifetime four tuner box.

And on top of that my electricity useage was more than cut in half. Since instead of using 46 to 50 watts with two, two tuner Premieres. I'm now using 20 to 23 watts with the four tuner TiVo.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

FWIW: I have DirecTV now and will be dumping them to get real Tivos. I will pay the monthly fee, even though I might pay more in the long run because I don't have to put as much up front to switch that way.

-Ted


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

stlbluesfan74 said:


> No I can refute. Anyone can refute. In my case I feel like I will be upgrading to a new unit within three years. Actually it takes around three years to pay for itself not two. Unless you got some kind of lifetime "deal".
> 
> Also, I have negleted to mention I am currently on the fence regarding Tivo. It is kind of in a trial basis right now. I still have Directv. Considering dumping them.


Then you still do not get it...

It has nothing to do with calculating the number of payments vs. the time to pay for the device... That is just icing on the cake. It has to do with the fact that a non-lifetime last gen device is worth about $20 while a lifetimed box has a retail value of about $350...

HD Box with Lifetime

HD w/out Lifetime

You get your money back when you are done with it. Either pocket it or use it toward the service fee on a new device. _Yes Virginia the lifetime service is transferable, just sell your old one on eBay!_
If you are not sure you want to keep the TiVo, then ok you might want to sit on monthly for a while, if you cannot afford the upfront cost, then you might want to look at a monthly bill.

But no matter how much you try to convince yourself, us or anyone else a monthly service fee financially makes absolutely no sense. The math does not work out and you do not have to be named Sheldon to run the numbers!


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## stlbluesfan74 (May 2, 2012)

ncted said:


> FWIW: I have DirecTV now and will be dumping them to get real Tivos. I will pay the monthly fee, even though I might pay more in the long run because I don't have to put as much up front to switch that way.
> 
> -Ted


Uh Oh Ted. Prepare to get blasted by all the geniuses who think we are shortsighted by thinking this way.


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## bradleys (Oct 31, 2007)

stlbluesfan74 said:


> Uh Oh Ted. Prepare to get blasted by all the geniuses who think we are shortsighted by thinking this way.


I will not blast him... Some people are uncomfortable with that large of a one time investment - and I am a huge proponenent of living within your means.

If you cannot afford it, you cannot afford it... Period / Stop.

You just need to understand that with lifetime you have immediate equity in the product near equal to the the cost of the lifetime fee. If you don't want it, sell it and recoup your money.

With a monthly service you never gain any equity in the unit. It will cost more to ship it then you get in resale value. Might as well toss it in the garbage.

Sorry if reality hurts.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tootal2 said:


> why would changing memory or cpu brake drm on windows? I guess ms thinks a memory hack can let you copy shows. but i dont see how thats possible


I don't recall the exact technology behind it but I believe that when you install Windows it takes a snapshot of your hardware configuration for critical components, such as the memory and CPU, and creates a key unique to that configuration and ties it to your Windows install that's also tied to your activation key. If you try to change any one of the critical components it breaks this tie and screws up the decryption key used for playing recorded TV (i.e. it breaks PlayReady). Getting around it is possible but it's a royal PITA. It's usually easier just to reinstall Windows from scratch.

This may not be the exact explanation but it's probably close enough for you to get an idea of what's going on.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Is it safe to add a 3tb harddrive without playready problems?



mr.unnatural said:


> I don't recall the exact technology behind it but I believe that when you install Windows it takes a snapshot of your hardware configuration for critical components, such as the memory and CPU, and creates a key unique to that configuration and ties it to your Windows install that's also tied to your activation key. If you try to change any one of the critical components it breaks this tie and screws up the decryption key used for playing recorded TV (i.e. it breaks PlayReady). Getting around it is possible but it's a royal PITA. It's usually easier just to reinstall Windows from scratch.
> 
> This may not be the exact explanation but it's probably close enough for you to get an idea of what's going on.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

mr.unnatural said:


> I don't recall the exact technology behind it but I believe that when you install Windows it takes a snapshot of your hardware configuration for critical components, such as the memory and CPU, and creates a key unique to that configuration and ties it to your Windows install that's also tied to your activation key. If you try to change any one of the critical components it breaks this tie and screws up the decryption key used for playing recorded TV (i.e. it breaks PlayReady). Getting around it is possible but it's a royal PITA. It's usually easier just to reinstall Windows from scratch.
> 
> This may not be the exact explanation but it's probably close enough for you to get an idea of what's going on.


Really close to being right, but it's not installing one item that puts it over the edge, it's an average of 3 components weighted being changed that triggers that "I need to reactivate" status, motherboard replacement because of all the subsystems usually does it, CPU and NIC are the other two with more weight in the average, memory has almost no weight. There's a bit more to the story other than the poster saying "just changing the memory" that would force reactivation and DRM issues.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

bradleys said:


> I will not blast him... Some people are uncomfortable with that large of a one time investment - and I am a huge proponenent of living within your means.
> 
> If you cannot afford it, you cannot afford it... Period / Stop.
> 
> ...


I understand it. I also understand the time value of money calculation, and I am better off doing other things with $400 than giving it to Tivo all at once. Additionally, even with paying Tivo every month, I still come out $29 better than sticking with DirecTV, so I am at peace with my "ill-considered" decision.

-Ted


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

tootal2 said:


> Is it safe to add a 3tb harddrive without playready problems?


Hard drive upgrades shouldn't affect PlayReady based on my experience. I swap them out all the time without borking PlayReady.



dianebrat said:


> Really close to being right, but it's not installing one item that puts it over the edge, it's an average of 3 components weighted being changed that triggers that "I need to reactivate" status, motherboard replacement because of all the subsystems usually does it, CPU and NIC are the other two with more weight in the average, memory has almost no weight. There's a bit more to the story other than the poster saying "just changing the memory" that would force reactivation and DRM issues.


I do recall that a minimum number of upgrades will trigger this issue. I have seen it occur with memory swaps, but it was usually in conjunction with a CPU change as well. Perhaps the act of installing a new CPU and then reinstalling the old one uses up two of the three upgrades before it takes a dump.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

stlbluesfan74 said:


> Uh Oh Ted. Prepare to get blasted by all the geniuses who think we are shortsighted by thinking this way.


Shortsighted means not being able to see the long view, that's all. If you're not sure that you want to keep Tivo or can't pay the freight for lifetime then fine, pay monthly. All we're saying is that it doesn't make good financial sense to do so for anyone intending to keep the box.


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## HerronScott (Jan 1, 2002)

tootal2 said:


> I just upgrade the memory on my computer and it broke playready microsofts drm program. any hardwear changes brakes the drm forceing a reinstall of windows. I think even a harddrive change will brake windows drm forceing a reinstall of windows.
> 
> It took me about 2 hours to fix the playready problem on my computer.
> If i had a family i would go with the tivo. I still have my tivo running just incase i give up on wmc


You should not have had to reinstall windows to fix this issue. From this thread looks like stop the Windows Media Receiver service and allow it to update after the change or run Microsoft's ResetDRM tool. There's also a manual fix posted as well.

http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=275

Scott


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

I did this to fix it. but i could not find HKLM\Software\Microsoft in regedit. but it was fixed without doing that

a. Uninstall PlayReady from the 'Programs and Features'
b. Enable the explorer to show hidden files and folders. To do this go to Windows Explorer > Tools > Folder Options > View tab > Show hidden files, folders and drivers
c. Go to %ProgramData%\Microsoft\ and delete the PlayReady folder.
d. Go to %ProgramData%\Microsoft\ and delete the DRM folder.
e. Go to %ProgramData%\Microsoft\Windows\DRM and delete all files and folders underneath (don't delete the DRM directory itself)
f. Open the registry with elevated privileges. To do so, click Start, click All Programs, click Accessories, right-click Command Prompt and then point to Run as administrator. In the command prompt that opens, type regedit.exe.
g. Go to HKLM\Software\Microsoft and delete the DRM key.
h. Run the ResetDRM tool. See http://www.cetoncorp.com/support/ind...ayready-issues
i. Restart the computer.
j. Run Windows Media Center setup again
k. Run the PlayReady install from inside Media Center



HerronScott said:


> You should not have had to reinstall windows to fix this issue. From this thread looks like stop the Windows Media Receiver service and allow it to update after the change or run Microsoft's ResetDRM tool. There's also a manual fix posted as well.
> 
> http://www.thegreenbutton.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=275
> 
> Scott


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## Chris Gerhard (Apr 27, 2002)

If I couldn't pay for lifetime service, I would just do without TiVo until I could. TiVo isn't a necessity although it is a great product to my way of thinking but it sure isn't worth $15/month to me. I can't earn $15 a month on a $400 investment, never have, probably never will but even if I could, it would be taxable income and the result would still be lifetime is a better option than monthly.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> Shortsighted means not being able to see the long view, that's all. If you're not sure that you want to keep Tivo or can't pay the freight for lifetime then fine, pay monthly. All we're saying is that it doesn't make good financial sense to do so for anyone intending to keep the box.


Well, that may be a bit strong. The decision doesn't rest solely on intent, even if one can readily afford the up-front payment. It's also a bit of a gamble. Even if one intends to keep the unit for at least 36 months, it doesn't prevent the box from going up in flames 2 days after the warranty expires, or being stolen, or being unexpectedly obsoleted in 12 months. That said, I did choose to get PLS on four of my TiVos, only choosing monthly service on one whose MSD brought the cost down to $6.95 a month, and which I was not as certain I would keep as the other boxes.


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

Chris Gerhard said:


> If I couldn't pay for lifetime service, I would just do without TiVo until I could. TiVo isn't a necessity although it is a great product to my way of thinking but it sure isn't worth $15/month to me. I can't earn $15 a month on a $400 investment, never have, probably never will but even if I could, it would be taxable income and the result would still be lifetime is a better option than monthly.


It seems to me that a lot of folks keep quoting the lifetime fee @ $400.00 when in fact the current first box lifetime fee is actually $499.00 only it is $399.00 for secondary boxes. Now many of you may have found some sort of discount but $400.00 is not the everyday Joe consumer Fee. On top of that there is a $99 to $399 up front fee for the Tivo Box itself depending on the model you order. So there is a substantial up front cost of ownership to get into the Tivo Game. To truly look at the cost of the Tivo & Service you have to add it all up and then divide it by the expected life cycle of the Box. It could be 1yr,3yrs,5yrs or more but it is only the lifetime of the Box. If you get lucky and say 2yrs from your original purchase you can sell it for 1/2 of the original total cash outlay then great but if it dies before then its all lost.

Odds say that if you intend stay with Tivo 2 to 3 yrs it makes more sense to go with the lifetime deal. Where I see a problem is that I predict that Ceton and perhaps other companies are going to put a hurt on TIVO because they are introducing a product that will have a built in customer base of many more times the size of Tivo's customer base. The problem with Media Center in the past is it was based on a PC and not an appliance so it was not as stable. They are also introducing a Media Extender that will be is not a game box like the Xbox 360's now used by MCE. Tivo will surely make there rumored IP extenders available to compete but there Service fee will have to be lower than it is now to compete because the Fee for the Ceton will be built into the price via the huge market share that Microsoft has in its already established licensing fees already paid in the Operating system.

Of course all of this is speculation and any choice is a gamble but if if the Ceton comes to market at a Price point which I believe will be lower than the 4 tuner Tivo + lifetime sub then Tivo will have trouble competing.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

I have to say - if your just getting into the stand alone DVR market, look at what is out there. Big picture = not much.

Consider if TiVo didn't offer a monthly subscription. They would charge a flat fee based on what they think is a fair price for the market.
$650 (cost of the current Premiere w/lifetime) for a computer that records TV is the average price, I would think.
Try to build your own HTPC DVR yourself from scratch. Case + power supply + motherboard + processor + memory + video card + hard drive + tuner card(s) + operating software, etc.
I'd bet the costs would be comparible if you go with minimum specs.

Therefore the only decision left is, do you value the services that TiVo has to offer?


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## davefred99 (Oct 31, 2004)

steve614 said:


> I have to say - if your just getting into the stand alone DVR market, look at what is out there. Big picture = not much.
> 
> Consider if TiVo didn't offer a monthly subscription. They would charge a flat fee based on what they think is a fair price for the market.
> $650 (cost of the current Premiere w/lifetime) for a computer that records TV is the average price, I would think.
> ...


If you read the very first post in this thread you would see that I am not a rookie to the Stand alone DVR Market. Infact I have owned a Tivo before when Direct Tv offered them. For the Past 5 or so years I have used both Sage TV & Now I also have a Verizon Fios MultiRoom DVR. I also have dabled with MCE mostly on my laptop since it came loaded with Win7 Premium.

I know full well what it costs to build an HTPC and it is not much anymore as even the most modest Motherboard & CPU combos come with HD capable integrated graphics that are more than up to the task. This was not the case a few years back but today's hardware is more than up to the task of a DVR/HTPC duties.

You might not also have picked up on the fact that I already own 1 Clear Quam HDHR dual network tuner & 1 of the new 3 tuner HDHR-Primes. So just like recycling used Tivo boxes I have a lot of the stuff already to recycle and rebuild a decent MCE system. However I am more interested in seeing what the New Ceton DVR has to offer.

There is no end to the number of threads that tout Tivo vs MCE vs everything else. Each of us has to decide what works best for ourselves. I would never expect to come here On a Tivo Forum and hear much talk touting any other product but I am not one of the sheep or lemmings who just follows the leader. Tivo is a fine product, I just do not like the idea of paying a fee or monthly subscription and the up front costs to purchase what I would want in Tivo (an XL4 @ $399.00 + $499.00 Lifetime sub= $898.00) is more than I want to pay and more than It would cost to build a similar MCE setup. Again I believe the 6 tuner Ceton will cost less plus they will have there extenders available out of the gate with no further monthly fees per additional box.

The biggest issue with Tivo for me is that in order to have a multi-room setup you must use multiple Tivo boxes and pay multiple monthly of lifetime sub fees. If the fee were minimal it would be a non issue but @ $12.99 a month or $399.00 for an lifetime second sub it is just not acceptable to me. If Tivo comes out with a low cost consumer IP extender box solution then it might be OK, But only if the Sub fee is free or very nominal.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

davefred99 said:


> The biggest issue with Tivo for me is that in order to have a multi-room setup you must use multiple Tivo boxes and pay multiple monthly of lifetime sub fees. If the fee were minimal it would be a non issue but @ $12.99 a month or $399.00 for an lifetime second sub it is just not acceptable to me. If Tivo comes out with a low cost consumer IP extender box solution then it might be OK, But only if the Sub fee is free or very nominal.


TiVo is coming out with a consumer IP extention box (expected late this year, I believe), but it will only work with the Premiere platform from what I understand.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

davefred99 said:


> It seems to me that a lot of folks keep quoting the lifetime fee @ $400.00 when in fact the current first box lifetime fee is actually $499.00 only it is $399.00 for secondary boxes. Now many of you may have found some sort of discount but $400.00 is not the everyday Joe consumer Fee. On top of that there is a $99 to $399 up front fee for the Tivo Box itself depending on the model you order. So there is a substantial up front cost of ownership to get into the Tivo Game. To truly look at the cost of the Tivo & Service you have to add it all up and then divide it by the expected life cycle of the Box. It could be 1yr,3yrs,5yrs or more but it is only the lifetime of the Box. If you get lucky and say 2yrs from your original purchase you can sell it for 1/2 of the original total cash outlay then great but if it dies before then its all lost.
> 
> Odds say that if you intend stay with Tivo 2 to 3 yrs it makes more sense to go with the lifetime deal. Where I see a problem is that I predict that Ceton and perhaps other companies are going to put a hurt on TIVO because they are introducing a product that will have a built in customer base of many more times the size of Tivo's customer base. The problem with Media Center in the past is it was based on a PC and not an appliance so it was not as stable. They are also introducing a Media Extender that will be is not a game box like the Xbox 360's now used by MCE. Tivo will surely make there rumored IP extenders available to compete but there Service fee will have to be lower than it is now to compete because the Fee for the Ceton will be built into the price via the huge market share that Microsoft has in its already established licensing fees already paid in the Operating system.
> 
> Of course all of this is speculation and any choice is a gamble but if if the Ceton comes to market at a Price point which I believe will be lower than the 4 tuner Tivo + lifetime sub then Tivo will have trouble competing.


The discount code is PLSR and is well-known to anyone willing to spend a little time to research. Yes, this excludes Joe Six-Pack but that's not you, right?

Ceton, Whiteman, etc. DVRs are all vaporware at this point, and even if they are released will not have the name recognition of Tivo in the market. Therefore, the competition that Tivo gets will be minimal at best (see: Moxi, which supposedly shipped around 5k units total).

And again, for the umpteenth time - you will get back most if not all of the price you pay for lifetime in resale value because of that Tivo brand and the value that folks place on lifetime, so essentially you get service for close to free vs. paying monthly. And even if you don't intend to sell the box w/lifetime, monthly is just money down the drain after a couple of years.

Yes, there is a slight risk that your Tivo will develop a motherboard, tuner, or other hard-to-fix fault if you invest in lifetime, but the vast majority of issues are with the hard drive which is easily replaced. And Tivo has been pretty good at replacing dead boxes with refurbs for $150 after warranty expires, lifetime transfer included.


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## tootal2 (Oct 14, 2005)

Ceton, Whiteman are not vaporware since the will still work even if ceton or whiteman goes out of buessness since they get there program info form microsoft



slowbiscuit said:


> The discount code is PLSR and is well-known to anyone willing to spend a little time to research. Yes, this excludes Joe Six-Pack but that's not you, right?
> 
> Ceton, Whiteman, etc. DVRs are all vaporware at this point, and even if they are released will not have the name recognition of Tivo in the market. Therefore, the competition that Tivo gets will be minimal at best (see: Moxi, which supposedly shipped around 5k units total).
> 
> ...


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

tootal2 said:


> Ceton, Whiteman are not vaporware since the will still work even if ceton or whiteman goes out of buessness


That has nothing to do with Vaporware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

Ceton already has a viable product on the market that's been pretty successful and has been followed to market by other similar offerings. You _will_ see the Ceton Q at some point in the near future. These guys are as much enthusiasts as they are businessmen.

Whiteman's product is still pretty much a work in progress and I'm not even sure it's been released to the public yet.


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

Does WMC or any other htpc interface offer the integrated search features tivo has? I've been on this hunt for entertainment nirvana for a while now and tried several htpc front ends. Recently got the tivo premiere on woot (immediately upgraded hdd to 2TB, ahh...) and the search is the killer app, to me. No longer do I have to think "lets watch something on netflix", just have to think about what I want to watch and the tivo does the rest. So far the only features it's lacking are local video streaming and web browser. And I'm not entirely sure that's even true, yet. I'll keep my htpc with xbmc for those, for now. I'm a long time rhapsody user so that's just another great feature that even an htpc couldn't really do right, in my experience. (tho for some reason when I search for "truckfighters" it crashes the rhapsody app every time? all other searches thus far have worked fine, maybe someone else can try this? I know they are awesome, but...) 

I did like the high configurability of htpc front ends, like in mce you can basically reorganize everything, I could make a strip with all my favorite bits, but given all the tivo does, I almost don't care. It does take a lot of time and tweaking to get that type of high customization working well, which gets old. And then for some reason, it would always reset to default and I had to run some script to fix it, lame, WAF in the crapper. Then there's the ceton, pretty fussy, hello waiting forever to tune after wake... WAF dump. The comcast rep in Redmond told me on demand should be rolling out here sometime this summer, which I'll take to mean some time this year, icing on the cake. I have a feeling lifetime is in my (28 day) future. Don't forget to use promo code PLSR to knock $100 off that. And thus far, WAF is off the chart compared to any of my htpc configurations.

And that's my "tivo honeymoon" post! Now I've got some reading to do on local network video streaming possibilities.


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## swerver (May 18, 2012)

How about this recommendation for OP - get a refurbed premiere for cheap and subscribe for 1 month, total cost around $100 or less. If you are not hooked by the end of the 30 days, sell it, eat the loss (well under $100, probably closer to $0 if you can get a good deal) and then you won't have to wonder any more. If you are hooked, do the same and upgrade to the XL4, or get the XL4 and keep the other one as your 2nd room box. May even be able to work some additional discounts that way since you get better deals if you are buying a second box, doesn't matter if you immediately sell the first one after doing so. My 2 cents.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

swerver said:


> Does WMC or any other htpc interface offer the integrated search features tivo has? I've been on this hunt for entertainment nirvana for a while now and tried several htpc front ends. Recently got the tivo premiere on woot (immediately upgraded hdd to 2TB, ahh...) and the search is the killer app, to me. No longer do I have to think "lets watch something on netflix", just have to think about what I want to watch and the tivo does the rest. So far the only features it's lacking are local video streaming and web browser. And I'm not entirely sure that's even true, yet. I'll keep my htpc with xbmc for those, for now. I'm a long time rhapsody user so that's just another great feature that even an htpc couldn't really do right, in my experience. (tho for some reason when I search for "truckfighters" it crashes the rhapsody app every time? all other searches thus far have worked fine, maybe someone else can try this? I know they are awesome, but...)
> 
> I did like the high configurability of htpc front ends, like in mce you can basically reorganize everything, I could make a strip with all my favorite bits, but given all the tivo does, I almost don't care. It does take a lot of time and tweaking to get that type of high customization working well, which gets old. And then for some reason, it would always reset to default and I had to run some script to fix it, lame, WAF in the crapper. Then there's the ceton, pretty fussy, hello waiting forever to tune after wake... WAF dump. The comcast rep in Redmond told me on demand should be rolling out here sometime this summer, which I'll take to mean some time this year, icing on the cake. I have a feeling lifetime is in my (28 day) future. Don't forget to use promo code PLSR to knock $100 off that. And thus far, WAF is off the chart compared to any of my htpc configurations.
> 
> And that's my "tivo honeymoon" post! Now I've got some reading to do on local network video streaming possibilities.


WMC has a search feature, but I can't vouch for how it compares with Tivo's because I rarely used it on my Tivo. I'm more structured than most people when it comes to TV viewing so I never need to search for anything to watch. I've either got a backlog of TV shows I've recorded or I can pick a movie from my vast library of ripped DVDs and Blu-Rays, which is well over 800 at the moment and still growing.

I have yet to see a streaming service that holds a candle to Blu-Ray playback, but to each his own. Blu-Rays ripped to MKV files with XBMC and the HD audio patch are a match made in heaven for me. They stream beautifully from my unRAID server to any PC in the house. It's the first playback solution for streaming Blu-Rays I've found that just plain works and works flawlessly.

Not sure why your PC would reset everything to default. Sounds like it's a hardware/software/driver issue that doesn't play well together. I can set mine up the way I want and then forget about it. Even the wife has come to like it, and she's the hardest person I've ever met to please.

Been using a Ceton InfiniTV 4 since August of 2010 when they first shipped and never had an issue with it. Then again, I leave my PC on 24/7. I've heard too many horror stories about letting HTPCs go into sleep mode so I never saw the sense it doing it myself. Your post just proves I'm right about it. You might want to reconsider using sleep mode on yours. Mine's ready to go as soon as the TV turns on. Another solution might be to use an SSD for your OS drive. The difference in boot times will absolutely astound you.

My lifetime Tivo's been sitting unplugged on the shelf going on two months now and nobody misses it. My WMC PC does everything I ever asked my Tivo to do and much, much more.


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## ggieseke (May 30, 2008)

My HTPC has no problems with sleep mode, but that's probably because the only tuners right now are a pair of external HD HomeRun boxes. Does the InfiniTV 4 have problems in that respect?


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

slowbiscuit said:


> Yes, there is a slight risk that your Tivo will develop a motherboard, tuner, or other hard-to-fix fault if you invest in lifetime, but the vast majority of issues are with the hard drive which is easily replaced. And Tivo has been pretty good at replacing dead boxes with refurbs for $150 after warranty expires, lifetime transfer included.


I think this risk also exists with the monthly service since there is a one year commitment on the premiere or elite. It looks like the customer is still committed to paying a minimum of $329.87 ($149.99 + $14.99x12) for a Premiere without lifetime service.

With a little research a customer can purchase a Premiere with lifetime service for $549.98 ($149.99 + $399.99) and Tivo would probably replace the box for $150 in the event of catastrophic falure.

A Lifetime Tivo is exposed to an additional $220.11 ($549.98 - $329.87) initially if the box is lost, stolen or destroyed by fire or flooding, but if it survives for 27 months then the lifetime service pays for itself.

So it seems the downside to lifetime service is the additional risk of losing an additional $220.11 in the event of loss, theft, fire or flooding, but this risk depreciates for every month you own the Tivo and disappears after 27 months.

The upside is that the lifetime Tivo could last 10 years so it would only cost you $4.59 per month or 5 years for $9.18 per month.

I think Lifetime service is a risk worth taking.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

shwru980r said:


> I think this risk also exists with the monthly service since there is a one year commitment on the premiere or elite. It looks like the customer is still committed to paying a minimum of $329.87 ($149.99 + $14.99x12) for a Premiere without lifetime service.
> 
> With a little research a customer can purchase a Premiere with lifetime service for $549.98 ($149.99 + $399.99) and Tivo would probably replace the box for $150 in the event of catastrophic falure.
> 
> ...


+1 and if you want to upgrade you can get almost all your Lifetime investment back by selling the TiVo. 
I have been doing this from 2001 on, very low cost over the years for me. after my re-sales the monthly cost was under $1.50/month per TiVo.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

Yes, the resale aspect is what really makes the lifetime purchase a superb deal.


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## ncted (May 13, 2007)

Chris Gerhard said:


> If I couldn't pay for lifetime service, I would just do without TiVo until I could. TiVo isn't a necessity although it is a great product to my way of thinking but it sure isn't worth $15/month to me. I can't earn $15 a month on a $400 investment, never have, probably never will but even if I could, it would be taxable income and the result would still be lifetime is a better option than monthly.


I can easily earn 40% return on my stock options every 6 months. Even taxed as normal income, I still easily come out ahead on a $400 investment by a few bucks a month if I pay for Tivo monthly. That said, not everyone is in my position, so the lifetime option probably makes more sense for lots of other people.

-Ted


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

ggieseke said:


> My HTPC has no problems with sleep mode, but that's probably because the only tuners right now are a pair of external HD HomeRun boxes. Does the InfiniTV 4 have problems in that respect?


I can't address that personally, but it appears that swerver's HTPC has to get the Ceton tuners awake before they'll function. If you absolutely have to use sleep mode then you might consider the SiliconDust HDHomeRun Prime as an alternative. Both the Ceton and HDHR Prime are excellent cablecard tuners. I use both in my setup as well as two Hauppauge 2250 PCI-E tuners and a standard HDHomeRun ATSC/QAM networked dual tuner. The Ceton quad tuners and Hauppauge tuners are dedicated to my primary HTPC and the HDHR & HDHR Prime are shared between several PCs.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

ncted said:


> I can easily earn 40% return on my stock options every 6 months. Even taxed as normal income, I still easily come out ahead on a $400 investment by a few bucks a month if I pay for Tivo monthly. That said, not everyone is in my position, so the lifetime option probably makes more sense for lots of other people.
> 
> -Ted


Your correct if I had a no risk 40% a year unlimited investment opportunity I would borrow money like a mad man, mortgage my home, cars, (and kids if i could), and max out my credit cards, but for the average person that can make a risk free return of 1%-2% on their money, Lifetime TiVo service make for a good investment.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

swerver said:


> Does WMC or any other htpc interface offer the integrated search features tivo has?


No, WMC sucks for search compared to Tivo, and more importantly (to me) lacks the advanced wishlists with boolean search that Tivo has. I have a variety of ARWLs for sports that I could not do on WMC without babysitting every week to remove stuff I don't want to record.

WMC can play a ton of stuff and has some great features like auto commercial skip with add-ons, but as an every day DVR IMO is not as good as Tivos, especially if you use extenders. I run both in my house, and with pyTivo in particular there's nothing else that I need to play anything I want on Tivo, but I don't stream BD rips - WMC might be better for that.

YMMV.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> No, WMC sucks for search compared to Tivo, and more importantly (to me) lacks the advanced wishlists with boolean search that Tivo has. I have a variety of ARWLs for sports that I could not do on WMC without babysitting every week to remove stuff I don't want to record.
> 
> WMC can play a ton of stuff and has some great features like auto commercial skip with add-ons, but as an every day DVR IMO is not as good as Tivos, especially if you use extenders. I run both in my house, and with pyTivo in particular there's nothing else that I need to play anything I want on Tivo, but I don't stream BD rips - WMC might be better for that.
> 
> YMMV.


It all depends on what you're expecting your DVR to do for you. I've never felt the need to use Tivo's search functions except on a few rare occasions. With all of the season passes I have set up I rarely have to look for extra stuff to record unless it's a one-time airing of a show I'd like to watch. WMC does more than an adequate job of finding what I want in this regard. If you don't use season passes and just like to record random shows then Tivo's search feature may work better for you, but I'm just guessing.

I see lots of extra stuff show up in my upcoming recordings list that I don't want, but it's usually because all of the metadata for a particular episode hasn't been acquired yet. If I leave it alone WMC eventually sorts it out and decides if it's a new show or a rerun. I don't recall the last time I ever had a duplicate recording of a rerun in WMC.

WMC is a rock-solid DVR and is perfectly fine for everyday use (I use mine everyday ). I'm not a huge fan of extenders, mainly because of their lack of codec support for various video formats. For playing back recorded TV shows from the main PC, they do exactly what they're designed to do. The one aspect that killed it for me was that if the main PC went down for any reason it disrupts every extender in the house. I switched to using small form factor (SFF) PCs in place of extenders throughout my house. Since I'm on FIOS I don't have the DRM issues that other providers have so I can share recordings from the main PC with any other PC.

Tivo vs. HTPC is strictly a matter of personal preference and what features you want. Tivo is better in some areas and an HTPC is better in others. I use mine mainly for recording TV as season passes so there's no advantage to either in this regard. The area in which the HTPC beats Tivo hands-down is the ability to stream a multitude of video formats across my network, especially ripped Blu-Ray discs with HD audio. There are more ways than I can count to customize an HTPC for any feature you want without having to hack it, unlike a Tivo.

It's all about choices. You can buy a box with whatever software configuration Tivo decides to give you or you can create your own custom DVR with loads of extra features. The main reason I bought a Tivo in the first place was the ability to hack it for additional storage and add extra features. Tivo has locked down the boxes to the point where even adding more storage is a daunting task.


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