# New model (S4) very soon....?



## superseagulls (Jul 30, 2009)

I have been following the pricing and stock of the HD models for some while, and really think there could be a new model coming soon, 4 - 8 week window....
If you try and buy an HD XL from Tivo they are out of stock, and the standard HD ships in 7 - 10 days (Low/limited/none stock).
Amazon out of stock, just there partners offerings, and the prices have jumped back to the low $510's 
The company I was going to buy one from had the XL continuously for $445 - 460 region, and then just over a week ago the price shot back up to $599
The deals on the 'Refurbs' have been good; as if they were trying to clear out as much inventory as possible before they got stuck with a pile of relatively value less stock on the announcement of the replacement.
No science or 'insider knowledge' just a really sneaky suspicion that there will be a new model for purchase come September. 
Anyone else got any suspicions?


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## jkalnin (Jan 8, 2003)

Nope, because there are too many insiders here that would have posted the features and specs by now. We'll know when it's coming. I hear a lot of speculation but no facts, so my thinking is we have at least a year or two.

/my hunch


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

Hmm, that is interesting. I was getting ready to (maybe) buy a HD XL in the near future. It could be that there is just a break between manufacturing runs. If there is a new run coming up I doubt we'll see a Series 4 (Tru2way box). More likely it will be more of the same or possibly a slight refresh (such as my hope in another thread for an HD+ with bigger HDD). Guess I'll have to wait a few weeks and see what happens to availability.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

If TiVo actually has Tru2Way working, that would be something for a new model. It doesn't seem that the cable companies are enthusiastic about it, though.


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

stevel said:


> If TiVo actually has Tru2Way working, that would be something for a new model. It doesn't seem that the cable companies are enthusiastic about it, though.


I would expect the cable companies to be more supportive of Tru2way than the tuning adapter for SDV support. Tru2way actually provides a lot of benefits for the cable company. They are able to still control the interface for PPV, support SDV, and manage an encrypted channel without having to provide hardware beyond the cable card.

I'm most disappointed that Tru2way doesn't include a soft token capability to get away from these ridiculous cable cards. It really should just be a matter of calling up the company, giving them some sort of ID code from the box (TiVo, TV, etc) and them establishing a two-way channel with that device.


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## JeffRapp (Sep 30, 2007)

We were offered 1000 pieces of the Series2 about a week ago - perhaps they're making room for new inventory? Usually, when they hit us for resell, they're trying to dump inventory.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Series2 is already obsolete for a lot of people - TiVoHD is the current platform.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

StuffOfInterest said:


> I would expect the cable companies to be more supportive of Tru2way than the tuning adapter for SDV support. Tru2way actually provides a lot of benefits for the cable company. They are able to still control the interface for PPV, support SDV, and manage an encrypted channel without having to provide hardware beyond the cable card.


Not to mention that Tru2way will allow Tivo users to purchase PPV, which means more revenue for he cableco.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

I'm pretty sure TiVo has had stock lulls like this in the past without (significantly) new models being rolled out. I'm guessing StuffOfInterest is on the right track with a break between manufacturing runs.

Last time I heard anything about Tru2Way was the partnership-related press releases back in March or April, which should still be on TiVo's web site. Not sure if anything has been mentioned in investor conference calls, but I haven't been following those all that closely of late.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Given that TiVo has actually very rarely turned a profit over its history, I'm not sure what you mean by "stock lulls".


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

bicker said:


> Given that TiVo has actually very rarely turned a profit over its history, I'm not sure what you mean by "stock lulls".


stock = inventory


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## JeffRapp (Sep 30, 2007)

stevel said:


> Series2 is already obsolete for a lot of people - TiVoHD is the current platform.


Exactly. We're essentially a liquidator, and when things come our way, they're usually at or near end-of-life. It just makes me think that TiVo's trying to move the Series2s out of their warehouse to make new for new product. Whether it's just more HDXL boxes or something entirely new, only time will tell.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

StuffOfInterest said:


> stock = inventory


OH! (In my best Emily Latelle voice...) Well that's different! Never mind!


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## superseagulls (Jul 30, 2009)

The HD XL was announced September 04, 2008. The price of a 1TB HDD was (retail) approx $220 where as today the same drive can be had for as low as $80 - there's room for tivo to make the HD XL a mid level, system at $350 -400 with an entry level taking the series 2 place 250-320GB $199-250 with a prosumer variant remaining the $599 mrsp with a 2TB drive, that's what I would like to see.......


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

I dont think anything going to happen until the E* case is settle.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Maybe tivo's contract with WD is up and existing models will be getting larger hard drives.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Johncv said:


> I dont think anything going to happen until the E* case is settle.


Well CRAP! I guess we won't see a new model until 2016.


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## yukit (Jul 23, 2005)

stevel said:


> Series2 is already obsolete for a lot of people - TiVoHD is the current platform.


+1

I gave away my S2 240 unit to a friend. Since he needed new subscription, Tivo actually made more money from this "free" transaction.

I am about to replace my S2DT with a TivoHD (or S4 ) soon.
I hope to find a good home for the S2DT unit once we finish watching/transferring all programs. More subscription revenue for Tivo.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

When I was buying my XL I noticed that the price tended to go gradually down, and then BOOM back up to full in one day. Then gradually down again.

I'm sure TiVo is working VERY hard on the next box. I'm sure that the DirecTV TiVo will have MANY aspects of the "series 4" platform. We will learn a lot from it.

But until tru2way standards are (ever?) finalized by cablelabs - TiVo probably doesn't have a reason to update the box. Gotta get that VOD going for people who insist on it---for reasons I never understood. Maybe the tuning resolver can be incorporated too. I think there really are only two versions - Motorola and old SciAtl.


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## deandashl (Aug 8, 2008)

bicker said:


> Given that TiVo has actually very rarely turned a profit over its history, I'm not sure what you mean by "stock lulls".


Tough to manage all those forums, can't read every post correctly.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

It could be they are nearly ready to quietly launch the successor to the Series 2 platform, based on the TiVo HD.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

JeffRapp said:


> Exactly. We're essentially a liquidator, and when things come our way, they're usually at or near end-of-life. It just makes me think that TiVo's trying to move the Series2s out of their warehouse to make new for new product. Whether it's just more HDXL boxes or something entirely new, only time will tell.


It makes me think they're trying to dump them because of the extensive digital migrations underway at cableCos, such as Comcast's Project Cavalry. Not to mention the huge jump in HD channels that comes with it. 
S2's have less usefulness when there's not much left on analog, and HD replacements for all the popular channels.


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## petew (Jul 31, 2003)

classicsat said:


> It could be they are nearly ready to quietly launch the successor to the Series 2 platform, based on the TiVo HD.


+1

We saw a slow evolution of Series 2 models. I'd expect the same for the HD series. Presumably there's no longer a legal requirement to include analog support plus new rev's of various hardware components that could be used.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

classicsat said:


> It could be they are nearly ready to quietly launch the successor to the Series 2 platform, based on the TiVo HD.


What would be the difference? I guess I am just confused on what would separate it from the Tivo HD since my assumption was the series 3 was the successor to the series 2 platform.

Now if you are talking about the next series 3 revision I could see it. I can never find the thread but if I remember the timeline correctly the series 3 launched in September 2006, the Tivo HD launched in July 2007, and the HD XL launched in September 2008. This would make sense we could have seen a new Tivo model or revision in July.

Of course as more time goes on my wishlist and expectations with regards to features grows for my next DVR.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

The box I speak of could have at least SD A/V in and serial/IR control , for those services that need a box. They could drop one of the analog encoders to save money, making it a digital cable/antenna only, and analog from box only unit. One needs to stay for A/V support.

Thinking, it could be within possibility they could release a new cost reduced version of the TiVoHD, which is totally digital only, and single cablecard.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

stevel said:


> If TiVo actually has Tru2Way working, that would be something for a new model. It doesn't seem that the cable companies are enthusiastic about it, though.


I don't think they're not enthusiastic, I just think it's a multi-year project to update their head-ends/infrastructure for tru2way. The MOU was overly aggressive, probably not rooted in reality as the July 1st deadline came and went with only a % of regions/operators now on that platform. Also, the retail DVR specs were stalled from release for quite some time and TiVo wouldn't roll something out that only works in a handful of markets.

Honestly, I could forgo the tru2way if TiVo and the cable industry figures out how to build tuner adapter functionality into a next gen box. And obviously a next gen box needs more power and broader support to do the sorts of things those leaked IU videos show.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

Whatever it would take to make the Tivo HD faster on a home network would be an easy upgrade and maybe they could keep this under most insider radars. SDV / VOD / Tru2Way added to the current Tivo HD would get me to buy a new box. I think there are business issues with VOD, like Tivo wants a cut of the action and the cable companies don't want to give it. Tivo may be pushing HD refurbs to get customers to the point where they can download content which, I assume, Tivo makes money on.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

davezatz said:


> I don't think they're not enthusiastic, I just think it's a multi-year project to update their head-ends/infrastructure for tru2way. The MOU was overly aggressive, probably not rooted in reality as the July 1st deadline came and went with only a % of regions/operators now on that platform. Also, the retail DVR specs were stalled from release for quite some time and TiVo wouldn't roll something out that only works in a handful of markets.....


are their any numbers anywhere about what the percentages are as of July 1?

Was there any word from sony et al that althogh cable borked them they are still going to play?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

deandashl said:


> ...
> 
> But until tru2way standards are (ever?) finalized by cablelabs - TiVo probably doesn't have a reason to update the box. ....


I'm pretty sure everything is final. Also as above cable promised to deploy true2way on the vast majority of thier headends as of just past July 1. Clearly they missed the deadline but they so apparently have a spec to deploy out there. (I'm hoping Dave has a link or some facts as to what the current state of deployment is)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

petew said:


> +1
> 
> We saw a slow evolution of Series 2 models. I'd expect the same for the HD series. Presumably there's no longer a legal requirement to include analog support plus new rev's of various hardware components that could be used.


yeah, everybody seems to be looking for the 540 model of the TiVo HD. I for one am not. 
More video streaming or downloads on my current TiVo HD is what I am looking for 
The series 4 can take its time so it includes a final tru2way that lets me completely mothball the cable box.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> . Clearly they missed the deadline but they so apparently have a spec to deploy out there. (I'm hoping Dave has a link or some facts as to what the current state of deployment is)


Unfortunately, I don't have any exact numbers to share. Which is frustrating. Also, being able to support tru2way on the outside is probably different than supporting retail-purchased devices. And I've heard while the television sort of specs were finalized, 3rd party DVRs tapping into the cable network while maintain their own UI details were still being debated when I checked earlier this year. Who knows.

At The Cable Show there was a lot of talk about tru2way gaining retail presence/momentum, but Denver and Chicago may still be the only markets with cable-co support _and_ retail sales. My writing partner seems to think we'll see a much bigger push and wider support in 2010.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

chicagobrownblue said:


> Whatever it would take to make the Tivo HD faster on a home network would be an easy upgrade and maybe they could keep this under most insider radars.


Only if they develop a new hardware platform. I don't see that happening, outside of the Series 4.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

davezatz said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have any exact numbers to share. Which is frustrating. Also, being able to support tru2way on the outside is probably different than supporting retail-purchased devices. And I've heard while the television sort of specs were finalized, 3rd party DVRs tapping into the cable network while maintain their own UI details were still being debated when I checked earlier this year. Who knows.
> 
> At The Cable Show there was a lot of talk about tru2way gaining retail presence/momentum, but Denver and Chicago may still be the only markets with cable-co support _and_ retail sales. My writing partner seems to think we'll see a much bigger push and wider support in 2010.


thanks - wish there were some real numbers someplace.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

this is fun- from one of the links over at dave's website above.

June 30th

comcast VP - 


> Coblitz said Comcast doesn't have an end date for when it will have 100% of its headends enabled for tru2way-based retail devices but said "it won't be in the too-distant future."


TW-


> Time Warner Cable also will miss the deadline "but we've told our partners we're committed to tru2way, and we're close to trials," spokesman Alex Dudley said.


cablevision and brighthouse didn't bother to offer a comment.

cox I think had an extra year on the rest from the get go.

so there really is no reason for Tivo to bother at this point with a new platform. Maybe 2010 CES tivo can show a prototype for Tru2way and then year end 2010 there will be such a box.

I guess whatever might be in the pipe will be an upgraded and/or cheaper to produce THD.

So besides bigger drives- anyone want to speculate what else they could add to the THD platform?

But


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## QZ1 (Mar 24, 2003)

davezatz said:


> At The Cable Show there was a lot of talk about tru2way gaining retail presence/momentum, but Denver and Chicago may still be the only markets with cable-co support _and_ retail sales. My writing partner seems to think we'll see a much bigger push and wider support in 2010.


A few months ago, Atlanta metro was added as a market with tru2way cable co. support and compatible Panasonic plasma sales.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

MichaelK said:


> this is fun- from one of the links over at dave's website above.
> 
> June 30th
> 
> ...


it wasn't cox, but cablevision that has the extra year.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> t
> So besides bigger drives- anyone want to speculate what else they could add to the THD platform?


Subtract analog tuners/encoders and one CC slot. Use the savings to up the HDD size, leaving retail prices the same.


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## TiVo Steve (Nov 8, 2005)

VOD without tru2way?

http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/pressroom/pressreleases/2009/pr2009-03-02b.html


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

classicsat said:


> Subtract .........one CC slot...........


Only if you can guarantee cable cos will have m-cards! I just had an install where I repeatedly told them in advance I wanted an m-card but they adamantly told me they only had s-cards. (Time Warner.)


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## NotVeryWitty (Oct 3, 2003)

ajwees41 said:


> it wasn't cox, but cablevision that has the extra year.


Actually, it was Charter.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22297789-Tru2way-opening-door-to-more-STB-vendors-others

"So, the six biggest MSOs agreed to support Tru2way across all their systems by July 2009. (Charter Communications is allowed to have until mid-2010.)"


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## mbhuff (Jan 25, 2004)

The problem with Tru2way is that Tivo and the cable companies view it very differently. Tivo has proposed that they create a new release that allows teh Tru2Way middle-ware to run in a sandbox alongside of the Tivo software. Since anything that uses cablecards has to be approved by cablelabs, Tivo needs the cable companies to agree. So far, they have not.

The cable companies want TiVo to run on their hardware which allows them to allow/disallow features like MRV, TTG, etc... and control the release cycle (see ComcastTiVO for example). So far the cable companies aren't blinking.


My guess is we will see a TiVO Series 4 that has integrated SDV controller, updated hardware codecs including support for 1080p internet content, gigabit ethernet, at about the current price of the current TiVO HD. No support for PPV or VOD for the forseeable future.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

mbhuff said:


> The problem with Tru2way is that Tivo and the cable companies view it very differently. Tivo has proposed that they create a new release that allows teh Tru2Way middle-ware to run in a sandbox alongside of the Tivo software. Since anything that uses cablecards has to be approved by cablelabs, Tivo needs the cable companies to agree. So far, they have not.
> 
> The cable companies want TiVo to run on their hardware which allows them to allow/disallow features like MRV, TTG, etc... and control the release cycle (see ComcastTiVO for example). So far the cable companies aren't blinking.


I don't think that is true at all, and believe the FCC would have something to say about it if it was. The whole point of tru2way is that you don't have to use their hardware to get two-way enabled services. Software yes, hardware no.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

dlfl said:


> Only if you can guarantee cable cos will have m-cards! I just had an install where I repeatedly told them in advance I wanted an m-card but they adamantly told me they only had s-cards. (Time Warner.)


Well then spend more for the regular TiVo HD model then.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

StuffOfInterest said:


> Hmm, that is interesting. I was getting ready to (maybe) buy a HD XL in the near future. It could be that there is just a break between manufacturing runs. If there is a new run coming up I doubt we'll see a Series 4 (Tru2way box). More likely it will be more of the same or possibly a slight refresh (such as my hope in another thread for an HD+ with bigger HDD). Guess I'll have to wait a few weeks and see what happens to availability.


yeah, I would not think there was much coming in the way of new. If anything it will just be a TiVo HD with more 'economical' parts that they are gearing up to run in manufacturing.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

slowbiscuit said:


> The whole point of tru2way is that you don't have to use their hardware to get two-way enabled services. Software yes, hardware no.


The FCC concern is (separable security facilitating...) the use of alternative host devices. tru2way can used to comply with that requirement (though that's not the plan for its initial deployment, instead CableCARD still being relied on). Beyond that: The way it has been explained before, a tru2way device could have two modes, a native mode which works pretty much like the TiVo HD works today, and a tru2way mode which runs the service providers operating software on the tru2way device.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

TiVo Steve said:


> VOD without tru2way?
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/abouttivo/pressroom/pressreleases/2009/pr2009-03-02b.html


This is probably only for the smaller cablecos. It's what TiVo and RCN will be using on their customized TiVo retail hardware next year. (Yes, I both points in the second sentence confirmed.)


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## astrobuf (May 2, 2007)

All this talk about dropping analog tuners makes me worry. As far as I know, COMCAST still broadcasts about 90 channels as analog only. TiVo will need to supply an analog tuner pair for a long time for their customers using Cable.

Astrobuf


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

astrobuf said:


> All this talk about dropping analog tuners makes me worry. As far as I know, COMCAST still broadcasts about 90 channels as analog only. TiVo will need to supply an analog tuner pair for a long time for their customers using Cable.


My Comcast service transmits the "analog" channels (2-99) via digital simulcast, so I recevie them digitally on the TiVo but in analog upstairs on the S2.


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## ajwees41 (May 7, 2006)

astrobuf said:


> All this talk about dropping analog tuners makes me worry. As far as I know, COMCAST still broadcasts about 90 channels as analog only. TiVo will need to supply an analog tuner pair for a long time for their customers using Cable.
> 
> Astrobuf


you shouldn't worry analog is cable is going away. I bet if you checked again your area doesn't have that much analog.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

I'd be surprised if anything new from Tivo shows up before CES next January. The HD will get analog channels, so if anything the S2 will disappear.


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## astrobuf (May 2, 2007)

Comcast is actively advertising that they are the solution for those of us with Analog TV's and who do not want a set top box. So long as there are a reasonable # of Analog customers (like the next 5 years!), Comcast is not going to dump the Analog feeds.

Astrobuf


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

astrobuf said:


> Comcast is actively advertising that they are the solution for those of us with Analog TV's and who do not want a set top box. So long as there are a reasonable # of Analog customers (like the next 5 years!), Comcast is not going to dump the Analog feeds.


Comcast plans to eliminate all but its local and public interest channels in most markets.

Today, most Comcast still have 50+ analog channels, but those channels are *not* analog only. The overwhelming majority of all Comcast systems offer digital versions of their analog channels, which is exactly what you get once a CableCard is installed. The most widely deployed Comcast DVR is the 34xx and it does not even have analog tuners.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

astrobuf said:


> All this talk about dropping analog tuners makes me worry. As far as I know, COMCAST still broadcasts about 90 channels as analog only. TiVo will need to supply an analog tuner pair for a long time for their customers using Cable.
> 
> Astrobuf


while some will still need it- comcast actually is rapidly dumping all the analog on many systems with the exception of retransmitted broadcast locals. The HD ones and subchannels are all availible in digital obviously. And they seem to still do an analog SD version for lifeline. Not sure if they bother with a digital sd also- but you would still have the HD version so that would be fine for most.

My local system actually just dumped the first couple handfulls of analogs like this weekend with the rest goine at month end.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

We're scheduled for October 20.


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## fallingwater (Dec 29, 2007)

bkdtv said:


> Comcast plans to eliminate all but its local and public interest channels in most markets.
> 
> Today, most Comcast still have 50+ analog channels, but those channels are *not* analog only. The overwhelming majority of all Comcast systems offer digital versions of their analog channels, which is exactly what you get once a CableCard is installed. The most widely deployed Comcast DVR is the 34xx and it does not even have analog tuners.


Canada has two years before its analog OTA will shut down. So write that market off for S4.

More important is, if TiVo's next DVR incorporates digital tuners only, it will end TiVo's ability to record from an external source. Even Moxi, which isn't designed to record OTA at all, can record manually through its analog dongle from a CECB.


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## riffjim4069 (Oct 8, 2007)

Johncv said:


> I dont think anything going to happen until the E* case is settle.


If E* weren't such an unethical company, they could probably be making a new Series 4 for Tivo right now using the soon-to-be-released T2200S DVR.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I believe TiVo should prevail, but it is lunacy to label a company, making what it believes are the best decisions for their owners, "unethical". That's ridiculous. The *law *provides for these motions and actions. Otherwise, the judge would be sending the sheriff in already.

Impatience is not a justification for reckless aspersions.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bicker said:


> I believe TiVo should prevail, but it is lunacy to label a company, making what it believes are the best decisions for their owners, "unethical". That's ridiculous. The *law *provides for these motions and actions. Otherwise, the judge would be sending the sheriff in already.
> 
> Impatience is not a justification for reckless aspersions.


echostar/dish and their lawyers have on several occasions been sanctioned by the courts for unethical/illegal behavior during court proceedings. So it's not unheard of for echostar to manipulate the system in an unethical manner.

Just becasue one company beleives it's doing the best thing for it's shareholders doesn't mean it's the most ethical behavior.

Are you saying just because somethign is currently legal that it is ethical? No sense in conjuring up examples to have a pissing match but surely there are examples in history of behavior that was legal at the time but people at the time or later on decided was unethical. Or would you disagree?


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I'm saying that your (or anyone's) own personal ethics don't trump someone else's. So if two people disagree about a matter of ethics, who do *you* claim is "right"? The side you like better? That sounds pretty opportunist. And indefensible. If you want something to be either "right" or "wrong", get enough people to agree with you to make it the law of the land. Otherwise, respect the right of others to disagree with you in that regard -- respect the legitimacy of their actions based on the principle that their actions are judged based on how well they comply with their beliefs and values just as your actions are judged based on how well they comply with your beliefs and values.

Unless you want to subjugate your actions to compliance with my beliefs and values... that would be okay with me.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

bicker said:


> I'm saying that your (or anyone's) own personal ethics don't trump someone else's. So if two people disagree about a matter of ethics, who do *you* claim is "right"? The side you like better? That sounds pretty opportunist. And indefensible. If you want something to be either "right" or "wrong", get enough people to agree with you to make it the law of the land. Otherwise, respect the right of others to disagree with you in that regard -- respect the legitimacy of their actions based on the principle that their actions are judged based on how well they comply with their beliefs and values just as your actions are judged based on how well they comply with your beliefs and values.
> 
> Unless you want to subjugate your actions to compliance with my beliefs and values... that would be okay with me.


I wouldn't get into a debate on what's "right" or "Wrong" or immoral for the vast majority of things.

But I think there are extremes that the vast majority would agree weren't ethical although they were legal at the time.

First and foremost would be slavery. Would even your all knowing and most wise brain not agree that slavery while legal for many decades wasn't the most moral choice? Plantation owners would (and indeed did) argue that best decisions economically for them would be to keep slaves, that ending the practice would cause economic hardship, and that it was the law of the land for scores (if not hundreds) of years so why not just let it be.

From that extreme theres varying degrees that get more and more gray- till there is no black and white.

Now to compare dish/echostars behavior to the extreme of slavery is ridiculous. But the point is one cant just make equally broad statements to the opposite point that legal always equals ethical.

Toss in that ergen/dish/echostars behavior has recently (within the past several years) and repeatedly been censured by the courts and there can be legitimate debate if their current behavior is ethical or not. Doesnt mean that there is a right or wrong viewpoint, indeed there are MANY shades of gray in the world. But just to dismiss as lunacy, slander, or reckless any discussion of echostars behavior as being unethical merely because as of this moment they have not been found to be breaking the law is a stretch. Just as extreme as anyone declaring with certainty that ergens behavior is without a doubt unethical.

and all that aside- the courts are not yet done with the issues- the behavior's in question haven't even all been ruled to be legal. It's still a possibility that they could be found to be acting outside the law and, although probably very unlikely, your proverbial "sherrif" (in this case I would guess the federal marshalls?) could in fact go knocking on ergens door.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

MichaelK said:


> I wouldn't get into a debate on what's "right" or "Wrong" or "immoral" for the vast majority of things. But I think there are extremes that the vast majority would agree weren't ethical although they were legal at the time.


Of course, but what was put forward earlier isn't one of them. I suspect that even within some people's own heads they disagree with themselves on matters like this, saying one thing when they think about it as a consumer and saying something radically different when they talk about an analogous situation for the company that they own.



MichaelK said:


> First and foremost would be slavery.


Great example, along with women being unable to vote, religious persecution, and let's throw in the US government's handling of the native population. For hundreds of years a lot of people saw no problem with these things. So clearly what "right" and "wrong" is indeterminate, changing over time.

*Expect that there are things that you do today, that you *(and almost all of us, for that matter)* support today, that your great great grandchildren will find abhorrent.*



MichaelK said:


> But the point is one can't just make equally broad statements to the opposite point that legal always equals ethical.


That's not the point being made. The point being made is that you don't get to declare what is and isn't ethical for anyone but yourself. At least with things that are against the law, you can feel pretty confident that most people will acknowledge their obligation to comply as condition of their gleaning the benefits of society, but even there you'll find people who will assert that they have no obligation to follow laws they don't like. (I'll be happy to point you to some of those discussions via PM.) That's where you can apply your judgmentalism, Michael: When people put themselves about the documented overriding sense of society, i.e., the law. Without the support of following the process, getting a law passed, etc., then judging people based on the way you'd like to see them act is arrogance, nothing less.

Again, the point is that you don't get to determine for anyone but yourself. E* gets to determine for themselves what is right and wrong, as long as what they're doing (seeking a stay on the ruling, and appealing for the PTO to review the patent, in this case) is provided for by the law. We as a society have decided that their actions are acceptable. You don't get to unilaterally overrule that, except in your own mind.

You don't *like* what they're doing. I get that. I don't either. 100% agree with you there. Why is saying _that_ not enough for you? Do you grant your own personal perspective so little respect that you feel you need to make "bigger" statements, to make your personal feelings sound more important than they really are?

As you said:


MichaelK said:


> and all that aside- the courts are not yet done with the issues-


So let the system work. Be satisfied with expressing your dissatisfaction, rather than labeling their actions, for now. E* will get what is coming to them in good time.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

A google search for Echostar sanctioned by court brings up many examples. Sanctioned for filing a frivolous suit. Another case sanctioned for filing frivolous motions. Sanctioned for destroying evidence.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/497423/echostars_legal_woes_make_for_lengthy_list/ gives some examples.

It is certainly reasonable to discuss the ethics of Echostar. I can understand some people questioning the ethics of a company that has a pattern of abusing the legal process. I guess others can claim a company that's willing to pay the penalties is ethical.

Echostar's actions might not meet Bicker's standards for unethical conduct but reasonable people may have the opposite opinion.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> It is certainly reasonable to discuss the ethics of Echostar.


With regard to the things they *actually *did wrong, not for *other *things which were acceptable things for them to do.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

bicker said:


> With regard to the things they *actually *did wrong, not for *other *things which were acceptable things for them to do.


Is it acceptable to file a frivolous law suit and/or frivolous motions if you're prepared to pay whatever penalties are imposed? Assume the company makes a business decision that their competitive position will be improved with such a strategy.

This behaviour might benefit the owners of the company. I think it's perfectly reasonable to question the ethics of such a company.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

In this case, what is being attacked is an appeal that has been provisionally granted so your comment is non-sequitur.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

MichaelK said:


> echostar/dish and their lawyers have on several occasions been sanctioned by the courts for unethical/illegal behavior during court proceedings. So it's not unheard of for echostar to manipulate the system in an unethical manner.





bicker said:


> In this case, what is being attacked is an appeal that has been provisionally granted so your comment is non-sequitur.


We may be responding to different posts. Echostar has a pattern of behavior during court proceedings that at least some of us categorize as being unethical.

It is certainly reasonable to judge Echostar's behavior during the tivo lawsuit in context of their behavior in previous legal proceedings.

You're certainly free to think it's ethical to file frivolous lawsuits and pay any sanctions that are imposed by the courts. It's certainly reasonable for others to categorize a pattern of such behaviour as being unethical.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

lew said:


> We may be responding to different posts.


I'm referring to any aspersions associated with the *very latest* news on the dispute, which I assume everyone who is talking about the dispute has highest in their consideration, since it is fresh.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10302767-17.html

Arguing about anything else is just beating a dead horse.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

Dish
Echostar
Villain
Imp
Lucifer



I think we are all free to voice our opinions, even on what we consider to be ethical behavior. Certainly, it appears there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest Dish/ Echostar are acting unethically. And a judge has agreed that certain actions they have willingly performed are wrong, and ruled they needed to be financially punished. 

Maybe the best punishment for Dish/ Echostar - make them slaves to TiVo...

Or just make Dish/ Echostar pay the full cost of R&D and all other cost associated with bringing the Series 4 box to market. And for an extra punitive measure - every existing TiVo owner would get a free Series 4 box for each older box they trade-in - a program paid for by Dish/ Echostar.


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## StuffOfInterest (Jul 18, 2007)

Can someone please bring me up to speed on what all this Dish/Echostar discussion has to do with TiVo producing a Series4 DVR?


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

StuffOfInterest said:


> Can someone please bring me up to speed on what all this Dish/Echostar discussion has to do with TiVo producing a Series4 DVR?


Point well taken.

Though I think if TiVo wins and gets a lot of money from Dish/ Echostar, the Series 4 box will appear soon thereafter.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

daveak said:


> Though I think if TiVo wins and gets a lot of money from Dish/ Echostar, the Series 4 box will appear soon thereafter.


That does seem to be the context of Johncv's assertion , which brought Echostar into this discussion in the first place.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

bicker said:


> I'm referring to any aspersions associated with the *very latest* news on the dispute, which I assume everyone who is talking about the dispute has highest in their consideration, since it is fresh.
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10302767-17.html
> 
> Arguing about anything else is just beating a dead horse.


This has actually happened before in the case. And those two patents are about getting the broadcast, storing it on the hard drive and then playing it back. That is the broadest one and not the heart of the case by any means. There is a much more technical patent about how to use certain types of chips to quickly analyze mpeg video, parse it and put in markers to allow for the great trick play that is one of TiVo DVRs standout features. Also makes record while playing back work as smoothly as it does as well.

So significant to the lawyers and the amount of paperwork they do for the case but not overly significant to the findings in the case.


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## ericlhyman (May 19, 2001)

Will Tivo be participating in Cedia? Any rumors of new model announcements there?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Well they did show the Tivo XL there in September 2008, but I believe prior to the show it was expected. With no real hints at new products or rumors floating around since the last rumor which was only based on a survey question, I seriously doubt it though I would love to be surprised. 

If the Directivo is still on track, I would probably expect to see that at CES in January. I am sure some things will start to leak out even just rumors if that is indeed the case between now and then.


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## Johncv (Jun 11, 2002)

bicker said:


> That does seem to be the context of Johncv's assertion , which brought Echostar into this discussion in the first place.


Keep in mind that even if TiVo win, there probably will be no Series 4 box. Because there will be no need for one. Once TiVo win the appeal it validates all their patents and claims, regardless of how the patent office rules. No other company going waste the money and time that Echostar has for the past two years. It will now be just be cheaper to just licence the TiVo patents and interface, which is what Echostar will end up doing along with any other DVR provider. TiVo could end up becoming the Google of TV.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Johncv said:


> Keep in mind that even if TiVo win, there probably will be no Series 4 box. Because there will be no need for one.


there will be a series 4 box regardless of any future movement in the case. TiVo already one the case that DISH infringed and TiVo has already made deals with many cable companies and DirectTV.


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## Dr_Zoidberg (Jan 4, 2004)

Well, I guess "very soon" is a relative term. 

What are the latest rumors people are hearing?


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

No rumors currently other than the new wireless adapter. We should see or have details about something by CES, the first week of January. If not I wouldn't expect anything anytime soon.


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## davezatz (Apr 18, 2002)

innocentfreak said:


> No rumors currently other than the new wireless adapter. We should see or have details about something by CES, the first week of January. If not I wouldn't expect anything anytime soon.


Doubt we'll hear anything about a S4 in 2009 or at CES. Best bet is a CES look at the upcoming DirecTivo and/or some sort of skinned TiVoHD for Best Buy. Those are my guesses/hopes. The wireless access point looks interesting and I do wonder if we'll see a meaningful winter software update.


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

Yeah I more meant the Dtivo and Best Buy Tivo and by CES there should be an idea if we will even see those. 

The adapter is interesting since it could open possibilities especially when combined with the new Broadcom chip.


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## NullQwerty (Jan 20, 2009)

Being that Tivo doesn't make money on the hardware sales, and being that the OEM requirement for CableCards in PCs has been dropped, and being that CableCard add-on cards are about to be released in Q1 of 2010, I wouldn't be too surprised if Tivo announces that they'll start selling Tivo software for the PC. Buy the software, use it with your CableCard PC, pay a monthly fee to Tivo for the program guide.

Makes complete sense and as I debate if I want to buy a TivoHD, I'd much rather do this instead.

Here's one of the cablecard addons for the PC coming out:
http://www.cetoncorp.com/ProductsWMCFAQ.php


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Is that what LiquidTV is?


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## NullQwerty (Jan 20, 2009)

Maybe...I don't know. There are many solutions available, but being that Tivo is supposed to be a very good one with great guide information, I'd gladly go the Tivo software route instead of the others.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

LiquidTV has the Tivo name, but it shouldn't because it's a buggy piece of crap. The only software that will work with Cablecard tuners (today) is Windows Media Center, so if you don't like that you're out of luck. Fortunately, they've relaxed the DRM restrictions in Windows 7MC and with the new 4-way tuners just around the corner it becomes a compelling alternative to Tivo (if you're willing to live with Xbox360s as extenders, or don't use them).


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

NullQwerty was speaking about the future, not today.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

NullQwerty said:


> Being that Tivo doesn't make money on the hardware sales, and being that the OEM requirement for CableCards in PCs has been dropped, and being that CableCard add-on cards are about to be released in Q1 of 2010, I wouldn't be too surprised if Tivo announces that they'll start selling Tivo software for the PC. Buy the software, use it with your CableCard PC, pay a monthly fee to Tivo for the program guide.


There's hardly any market for a product like that. That is why TiVo outsourced LiquidTV. I doubt they have any intentions of spending resources on a product like that.


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## NullQwerty (Jan 20, 2009)

There's no market right now but there will be in the near future if cablecards become common place on pcs which could happen with the new rules lifting the restrictions cablecards had on pcs


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

NullQwerty said:


> THere's no market right now but there will be in the near future if cablecards become commpallace on pcs which could happen with the new rules lifting the restrictions cablecards had on pcs


TiVo would do well to wait and see what kind of market develops.
I agree with others though that Native Windows 7 Media center will be very compelling and already on any PC that is bought by general public. Sounds like a tougher nut to crack than getting users to not do cable company DVR.

I hope TiVo puts its efforts into a tru2way box that has an HD UI and can stream content


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## NullQwerty (Jan 20, 2009)

In my opinion I see that as the possible death of Tivo. MS did the absolute minimum in the cell phone field as it waited to see what happened in the market rather than be a Pioneer. Now Apple and Google are set to take control. Same with MP3 players.

Remember...it's not just the home pc enthusiasts. It's all the companies that will develop set top boxes that can use over the counter components and readily available software from MS. They can release home appliance dvrs of their own simple design. And it will include much more functionality than Tivo currently does like (Pandora, Revision 3...). And a company like Boxee will their cool new UI will add DVR and TV browsing to their software and people will begin to shun Tivo.

If Tivo doesn't take the reigns and try to become the market leader and pioneer in this field from the get go, I don't see them have 1/2 the market share in 10 years that they do now.

In my opinion at least. Tivo can't ignore market trends that hits at their bread and butter. Either be a pioneer, or prepare to stay alive with lawsuits like the Music companies do.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

I don't see how TiVo can be expected to "take the reigns". Great ideas are available in full measure, on the open market. Taking the reigns requires more than just great ideas, and great ideas is the full measure of TiVo's arsenal in this impending battle.


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## NullQwerty (Jan 20, 2009)

bicker said:


> I don't see how TiVo can be expected to "take the reigns". Great ideas are available in full measure, on the open market. Taking the reigns requires more than just great ideas, and great ideas is the full measure of TiVo's arsenal in this impending battle.


Take the reigns means porting Tivo software to the PC. Making it just as kick @$$ as it is on their own box. Set up the subscription model to support PC users. And then marketing the idea.

If they can't pull that off, then they're dead before they start. If they can pull it off but choose to wait, expect competition to grow in the market and by the time they want to penetrate it, there'll be better and cheaper products out there and people won't see the reason to switch to Tivo. Or scenario 2 is that they wait...no great products come out, and it never takes off on the PC. All that happened in that scenario is that Tivo just lost out on a great opportunity and they have to instead focus on their current approach which hasn't shown returns and is only getting more difficult.

Again just my opinion, but if Cablecards become common place on the pc, as many think it may, then Tivo should take it seriously and begin heavy work on TivoPC.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

One of the biggest attractions right now of MCE is that once you have the hardware there are no ongoing monthly subscription charges to contend with. I don't see how TiVo could possibly come along and charge monthly subscription fees or a hefty 1 time charge as an alternative and break even or be profitable doing so. Perhaps some die hard TiVo fans would bite, but people used to not paying subscription fees certainly would not.
I just don't see a business case for them there at all unless they somehow find a way to make money from advertising instead.


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## NullQwerty (Jan 20, 2009)

Well...I guess it depends. For me...to get rid of the cable box and dvr, the interface has to be really good and the guide information has to be really good. From what I've seen/heard about MCE guide is that you're getting what you paid for (free). And the interface is slick, but from what I read it doesn't meet the standards we're used to from our cable provider or Tivo.

But if I'm wrong on both of those accounts, then you're right and I think Tivo would have a hard time. Maybe they could charge less since they're no longer subsidizing the hardware costs.

Times like this is what decides which companies will be around in 20 years though. If cablecards become common place and software is written to support it, nothing is to stop home market dvrs from easily penetrating the market and htpcs to take ground. 

I just think Tivo should be proactive rather than reactive. If it fails, it fails. But if it succeeds and they're not apart of it...we may never hear of Tivo again.

Oh...and yeah it looks LiquidTV is what I'm talking about. They need to take it seriously though. Why rebrand a well built name like Tivo to LiquidTV and why sell it under Nero. Makes no sense. And they need it to work well. All reviews I read complained from people that couldn't get it working and couldn't get support.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

NullQwerty said:


> There's no market right now but there will be in the near future if cablecards become common place on pcs which could happen with the new rules lifting the restrictions cablecards had on pcs


I still fail to see where the market will come from. Right now people are renting their DVRs from cable companies and satellite companies. The PC market for DVRs has not shown any signs of growing in any substantial fashion. TiVo should be worrying about developing a platform than can work with multiple pieces of hardware (cable company dvrs, etc). Nero already tried to port the TiVo software to the PC and no one wanted to buy it even before it got the terrible reviews.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

NullQwerty said:


> Take the reigns means porting Tivo software to the PC. Making it just as kick @$$ as it is on their own box. Set up the subscription model to support PC users. And then marketing the idea.
> 
> If they can't pull that off, then they're dead before they start. If they can pull it off but choose to wait, expect competition to grow in the market


your assumption that other companies want to mass market DVRs is flawed, I think. Download of media, streaming from some other source is where the money is. Dealing with cable cards and tuners, not so much. Sure people might produce a PC with a form factor and price good for a living room and with win7 and tuners they have DVR covered but it is still a PC and likely just part of their hardware line versus some turnkey box for everything. It just happens that a PC makes setting up the rest easy fro those that want PC power.
I predict Apple will never sell a DVR. Why would they want to when they have the iTunes business model.

HINT - this forum and people who come here are NOT the mass market


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## innocentfreak (Aug 25, 2001)

NullQwerty said:


> But if I'm wrong on both of those accounts, then you're right and I think Tivo would have a hard time. Maybe they could charge less since they're no longer subsidizing the hardware costs.


So far in my experience with local channels only, the guide data has been the same. Until I can get one of the Ceton cards I won't know if the guide data is an issue on the subscription channels.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ferrumpneuma said:


> There is no(meaningful) demand for an S4.


Possibly, but the desire to have a working product will push TiVo forward to offer new hardware. I could see a rev where the TA was built-in like in many cable DVRs. Maybe this wouldn't be an S4, but it would be a new box.

I don't see TiVo moving forward with an S4 until the tru2way issues are resolved. TiVo wants to have the guide and TV functionality integrated into the UI, while cable companies want the TV interface to be separate. I may be wrong, but I think the license agreement for tru2way calls for a separate interface as well, so all that slick TiVo glory would go down the tubes in that area.

PS: thought I had read about TiVo wanting the integration... What I read was:



> But, says the FCC, "the tru2way license requires device manufacturers to separate cable navigation from all other functions that the device performs. On the other hand, devices like TiVo, Moxi, Microsoft's Xbox 360, AppleTC, Roku, Sony's Playstation 3, and Vudu each use a consistent menu as they navigate through video content regardless of its source."


TiVo would have to ditch their interface in favor of the Tru2way one according to this.


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> your assumption that other companies want to mass market DVRs is flawed


Not if the FCC still has the teeth to make good their position of no more proprietary hardware from service providers. Their goal is for a universal set top box with inputs for all service providers based on open standards so consumers can pick and choose the content they wish to pay for without being locked in to expensive bundles and/or hardware contracts. If they have their way, these boxes will be built and sold by consumer electronics companies and sold directly to consumers via your local Best Buy or WalMart.

There will be innovation and value that comes from competition in such a large market; and we will be delivered from the quagmire of limited tiered bundles and archaic proprietary hardware that must be rented, contract-subsidized, or paid for just because a company has a wire run to your home or put a dish on your roof.

This will be a huge opportunity for CE manufacturers, and TiVo better brush up there software and get in on the ground floor as they will not be able to exist otherwise.

Not sure if this will ever happen as seamlessly as the FCC would like. Cable and sat providers have fought these kinds of mandates ever since the FCC started working towards this goal several years ago. But ComCast's deal with NBC has them back under the microscope big time.

Do what you can to support the FCC's goals (contact your Federal representatives and let them know this is important to you).


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> Not if the FCC still has the teeth to make good their position of no more proprietary hardware from service providers. Their goal is for a universal set top box with inputs for all service providers based on open standards so consumers can pick and choose the content they wish to pay for without being locked in to expensive bundles and/or hardware contracts. If they have their way, these boxes will be built and sold by consumer electronics companies and sold directly to consumers via your local Best Buy or WalMart.
> 
> There will be innovation and value that comes from competition in such a large market; and we will be delivered from the quagmire of limited tiered bundles and archaic proprietary hardware that must be rented, contract-subsidized, or paid for just because a company has a wire run to your home or put a dish on your roof.
> 
> ...


I like the idea but the universal box with easy inputs would be far off, first assuming they can overcome DBS inertia and bring them along for the ride.
By that time - recording shows that are presented at a set time will be so last decade.  TV will be for live events and premade shows will be available after some set date and time and people can start watching it whenever. That will be the real new revenue model.
TiVo needs to get on board with downloads and streaming to their box. tru2way will be the cable companies' way to present a UI rich enough to allow for pick and choose.
the FCC battle is do they give the cable company the UI control or do they let the 3rd party get data and present it or do they have the hybrid that TiVo has spoken of


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## solutionsetc (Apr 2, 2009)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I like the idea but the universal box with easy inputs would be far off, first assuming they can overcome DBS inertia...
> 
> TiVo needs to get on board with downloads and streaming to their box.


They'll need new hardware first as the current platform is anemic.



> tru2way will be the cable companies' way to present a UI rich enough to allow for pick and choose... the FCC battle is do they give the cable company the UI control or do they let the 3rd party get data and present it


I feel the FCC's current push to be very broadband-centric. This could be exciting in the shorter term (as opposed to universal set tops). Right now content producers really only have two mass delivery options; cable and sat. But if everyone is broadband (even non-computer users), they're paying independently for the pipe that many providers could use. And I for one would pay ESPN more each month than ComCast does to put that channel in my expensive bundle. Hell, to get even more granular, I'd pay extra to see some of the games that matter as opposed to the local (Oakland, S.F.) games I seemed to be saddled with every Sunday.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> I don't see TiVo moving forward with an S4 until the tru2way issues are resolved. TiVo wants to have the guide and TV functionality integrated into the UI, while cable companies want the TV interface to be separate. I may be wrong, but I think the license agreement for tru2way calls for a separate interface as well, so all that slick TiVo glory would go down the tubes in that area.
> 
> PS: thought I had read about TiVo wanting the integration... What I read was:
> 
> ...


No, all that's required is an ability to shift back and forth between the TiVo interface and the cable system interface. A simple menu item in the TiVo interface would be enough (and a similar menu item in the cable system interface to switch back). There has to be a bit more to seamlessly handle VOD, but that's behind the scenes, hopefully.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

solutionsetc said:


> They'll need new hardware first as the current platform is anemic.
> 
> I feel the FCC's current push to be very broadband-centric. This could be exciting in the shorter term (as opposed to universal set tops). Right now content producers really only have two mass delivery options; cable and sat. But if everyone is broadband (even non-computer users), they're paying independently for the pipe that many providers could use. And I for one would pay ESPN more each month than ComCast does to put that channel in my expensive bundle. Hell, to get even more granular, I'd pay extra to see some of the games that matter as opposed to the local (Oakland, S.F.) games I seemed to be saddled with every Sunday.


correct - new hardware we all call the S4 here, TiVo has downloads and streaming going already but better hardware will increase use.
and the FCC finds way to open things up so content owners can take multiple routes to get to the home TV. I wish them luck in that, they will need it.


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## comedygirl24 (Dec 14, 2009)

Thanks for the info, I hope they'll include these suggestions...


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

CrispyCritter said:


> No, all that's required is an ability to shift back and forth between the TiVo interface and the cable system interface. A simple menu item in the TiVo interface would be enough (and a similar menu item in the cable system interface to switch back). There has to be a bit more to seamlessly handle VOD, but that's behind the scenes, hopefully.


The way I understood it things like scheduling programing would have to use the true2way interface as well and since it would be separate from the TiVo interface you wouldn't be able to use things like season passes and wish lists. Tru2way may have equivalents, but it's really up in the air how TiVo would end up implementing this. Whatever way it happens I just hope it doesn't trash the interface.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> The way I understood it things like scheduling programing would have to use the true2way interface as well and since it would be separate from the TiVo interface you wouldn't be able to use things like season passes and wish lists. Tru2way may have equivalents, but it's really up in the air how TiVo would end up implementing this. Whatever way it happens I just hope it doesn't trash the interface.


no. There would still be guide data on the TiVo side and you schedule recordings like always. 
VOD and PPV would only be available in the cable company sandbox however and recording that may not even be possible. However it is VOD or PPV so recording it may not even be needed.

SDV is a question mark on how it works on the TiVo interface side (changing to that channel for a season pass for instance) but the needd hardway to do SDV internally with no dongle is part of the tru2way spec as it is.


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## NullQwerty (Jan 20, 2009)

The small niche market is for the people that build or buy a home theater PC. The real market however is with appliances.

Appliances have been sprouting up like crazy over the last year and what they're missing is TV functionality. They have video streaming, but lack the most obvious video streaming...TV. And they've been lacking that mainly because of the CableCard fcc restrictions. Those have been lifted. The appliance will start to include it. The only question is, will Tivo be on their boxes.

Tivo has a choice...they can continue with what they're doing and pray nothing big happens. If something does, Tivo could be gone in a heartbeat. 

What if MS and Sony announced that on their next game consoles they're including CableCards. Tivo is gone. 

What if (because of the lifted restrictions) it starts to become common place for BluRay players to include them. Again Tivo is gone.

Tivo's only chance of survival is to be the market leader of all DVR/TV browsing services for all devices outside the Cable companies proprietary boxes. 

To do that, they need to become first the market leader on HTPCs. The appliances see that and begin to use it. They develop an alliance with boxee. Ink a deal with Samsung BluRay. Work out something with Sony BluRay...Next MS announces MCE with CableCard DVR on the next Xbox. Sony needs to compete and to show they have something better, they go with Tivo who is the market leader (outside the cc proprietary boxes).


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

What's really sad is that if someone were to offer a cable card device that operated exactly like a VCR (tapes, the works) for under a $100.00 TiVo would die. It wouldn't take a fancy interface with season passes and wishlists, or an interactive guide. All it would take is a device that worked without a cable box that gave people what they had with the VCR. Market it as a digital VCR and millions would buy them. Oh and make those tapes regular VHS. 

That's how tenuous TiVo's market is right now. It's not their fault either since technology has been moving so quickly they can't keep up.


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## moyekj (Jan 24, 2006)

Stormspace said:


> What's really sad is that if someone were to offer a cable card device that operated exactly like a VCR (tapes, the works) for under a $100.00 TiVo would die. It wouldn't take a fancy interface with season passes and wishlists, or an interactive guide. All it would take is a device that worked without a cable box that gave people what they had with the VCR. Market it as a digital VCR and millions would buy them. Oh and make those tapes regular VHS.
> 
> That's how tenuous TiVo's market is right now. It's not their fault either since technology has been moving so quickly they can't keep up.


 There is already something slightly better than that (but not by much), and there are no up front costs for hardware: The cable company DVR.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

moyekj said:


> There is already something slightly better than that (but not by much), and there are no up front costs for hardware: The cable company DVR.


Yes, but it doesn't have the familiar feel of a VCR with a tape you can put on your shelf.  My dad would throw the TiVo into the street if a VCR that worked on cable was available. Sad, but true.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

NullQwerty said:


> They have video streaming, but lack the most obvious video streaming...TV. And they've been lacking that mainly because of the CableCard fcc restrictions. Those have been lifted. The appliance will start to include it. The only question is, will Tivo be on their boxes.


this is incorrect. The FCC has not lifted cable card restrictions.
Cable labs has simply said that Windows media Center is sufficiently certified that use of cable cards with windows media center does not need a full OEM certification for each hardware configuration.

so true devices that run the windows OS with media center can have cards plug in - and like I said people could sell the hardware in a nice package - but it will not be a 100$ box like the streaming appliances that are popular.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

http://hd.engadget.com/2009/12/15/new-directv-tivo-hd-due-in-the-spring-of-2010/#comments

Spring, for DirecTV subs. Maybe. Likely. We shall see.

But an S4 platform? Who knows. I am sure someone does, but maybe just can't say...


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Given all the announced new boxes, it may just depend on what they call an S4. The Best Buy TiVo box is due in the next couple months, the RCN TiVo box is due mid first quarter, and the new Comcast TiVo box is due sometime during the year. Who knows which of these will be an "S4"?

I would expect we will find out a lot more details at CES at the beginning of January.


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

NullQwerty said:


> Take the reigns means porting Tivo software to the PC.


Well redefined that way, it makes a bit more sense than before. I don't see TiVo, though, in a position to really differentiate itself from the competition that they'll meet in that realm. A port of the software, itself, is not practicable -- so much of the underlying platform changes that only the trivial aspect of the code will translate over -- so essentially TiVo would just be using their patented ideas to implement their software system "again". Given that, and what I said before about great ideas being available on the open market, it is very likely that TiVo will meet such vicious price competition on the PC that they'll never make back the cost of what you've termed "port".



NullQwerty said:


> If they can't pull that off, then they're dead before they start.


That's very possible.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> no. There would still be guide data on the TiVo side and you schedule recordings like always.
> VOD and PPV would only be available in the cable company sandbox however and recording that may not even be possible. However it is VOD or PPV so recording it may not even be needed.
> 
> SDV is a question mark on how it works on the TiVo interface side (changing to that channel for a season pass for instance) but the needd hardway to do SDV internally with no dongle is part of the tru2way spec as it is.


As I understood it the device UI and the tru2way UI would be completely separate. I'll have to look at the documentation closer however to confirm.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> As I understood it the device UI and the tru2way UI would be completely separate. I'll have to look at the documentation closer however to confirm.


the TiVo UI and tru2way UI would be seperate - that does not mean the TiVo UI does not have access to the cable streams to tune channels and record shows


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## bicker (Nov 9, 2003)

Effectively, the TiVo UI will still be able to do everything it can today, i.e., all linear channels. The tru2way UI would probably only really need to be invoked to handle tru2way-dependent capabilities.


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