# Game of Thrones - You Win or You Die - 5/22 on HBOGO or 5/29 on HBO



## rorrim (Jun 21, 2005)

I thought I would start a thread for this, since it's been "aired" on HBOGO.

I'm not sure how I feel about shows being available a week before their broadcast counterparts. Nevertheless, I decided to watch this on-line because I really love this show.

For what it's worth, this was just as good if not better than the previous shows. I am absolutely loving it. As usual, the ending cliffhanger had me on the edge of my seat waiting for the next episode. Unfortunately, that next episode is two weeks away now that I have skipped ahead by watching next week's episode on-line


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I imagine you'll get some arguments about starting this thread a week early since it hasn't aired on HBO itself. I checked out HBOGo myself but I can't get it it since I'm a Comcast subscriber and they aren't listed in the provider list.


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## rorrim (Jun 21, 2005)

I thought I might take some grief, but on-line viewing is now a valid part of the broadcast world. Especially since, in this case, the on-line provider is the "broadcaster" in cable space.

I'm a Comcast subscriber as well and didn't have a problem signing up for HBOGO to watch the new episode. When I signed up, I chose "Xfinity".


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

rorrim said:


> I'm a Comcast subscriber as well and didn't have a problem signing up for HBOGO to watch the new episode. When I signed up, I chose "Xfinity".


Ok, I'll try Xfinity. It never occurred to me. I want HBOGo so I can watch the first season of Treme before I get to this season's episodes that are piling up.


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

I don't see any problem with this thread considering that it's so clearly defined in the Subject line.


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Ok, I'll try Xfinity. It never occurred to me. I want HBOGo so I can watch the first season of Treme before I get to this season's episodes that are piling up.


As far as I can tell, the "Watch it a week ahead of time" is not available with Xfinity. I'm trying to get my mom's login in formation


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

I tried with Verizon FIOS last night. I was able to log in but when I tried to watch ANY videos on there it said "Not authorized to view".


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ok, I'll give you grief.


> *Timing of official threads:*
> Do not start the official show thread more than one hour before the Eastern time zone airing. The new thread should be about the new show.


The rules clearly state no threads until showtime. You can argue showtime is when HBO-Go shows it, but it ain't.

I really don't want to enter a thread a week after it has started. Is there any compelling reason to start it for the few people who watch that way?


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Ok, I'll give you grief.
> 
> The rules clearly state no threads until showtime. You can argue showtime is when HBO-Go shows it, but it ain't.
> 
> I really don't want to enter a thread a week after it has started. Is there any compelling reason to start it for the few people who watch that way?


These rules were made before the existance of apps like HBO to GO and hence are not valid in this new world we live in so this thread is 100% valid.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

To me, the worst part of being able to watch this a week early is that now we have to wait TWO WEEKS before we get another new episode!


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

NatasNJ said:


> These rules were made before the existance of apps like HBO to GO and hence are not valid in this new world we live in so this thread is 100% valid.


Those rules have been in effect for shows that have aired elsewhere before airing on the east coast, and for which it has been possible to download and watch episodes before the east coast airing. The fact that the download is now available directly from HBO does not make it any different now than it was then.


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## NatasNJ (Jan 7, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> Those rules have been in effect for shows that have aired elsewhere before airing on the east coast, and for which it has been possible to download and watch episodes before the east coast airing. The fact that the download is now available directly from HBO does not make it any different now than it was then.


Disagree.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

astrohip said:


> Ok, I'll give you grief.
> 
> The rules clearly state no threads until showtime. You can argue showtime is when HBO-Go shows it, but it ain't.
> 
> I really don't want to enter a thread a week after it has started. Is there any compelling reason to start it for the few people who watch that way?


Seriously? We can't talk about it because you didn't watch it yet? What is the problem with you coming here after you've seen it? How is that different from someone who has it on their DVR and just hasn't gotten around to watching it?


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## Barmat (Jun 1, 2001)

We should be able to talk about the show. What happens with the new show on Netflix only?

That being said. Poor Ned. He looks like he'll lose his head for this. I didn't think little finger would spring his trap in this episode.


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## ducker (Feb 21, 2006)

I haven't watched this yet... but I would have preferred they did like a director's commentary of that current week's episode instead of an episode a week early.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Ereth said:


> Seriously? We can't talk about it because you didn't watch it yet? What is the problem with you coming here after you've seen it? How is that different from someone who has it on their DVR and just hasn't gotten around to watching it?


This is an area that will require discussion. It may not be as clear cut as either of us think.

The difference between HBO-GO and a DVR is huge. Once it has aired on cable and/or OTA, everyone has had a CHANCE to see it. When you actually watch it is up to you. But not everyone has HBO-GO. So you are discussing a showing that 99% of us have not seen (and 90% probably can't see). And not just be a few hours, but a week earlier than 99% of us.

You start this thread on Monday. It fades away by Thur or Fri (IOW, drops off the first page or two of TCF). Sunday someone starts another thread. Is it a big deal? Nah. Just a small PITA. I also think you will have people post to the wrong thread, not aware there is an early thread for the next week. That's actually how I started reading this one, thinking it was for the past week's episode (and wondering how the title was different).

None of these are mission-critical issues in the grand scheme of things, but I do think it's worth a discussion.

I also think NatasNJ's interpretation of the rules is wrong. Not to say they couldn't or shouldn't be changed, but as the rules currently read, he is (IMHO) clearly incorrect.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Watched this last night, man this show gets better and better! I'll refrain from specifics given the discussion above about when to talk about it, but for me, this was the best of the series to date!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> Watched this last night, man this show gets better and better! I'll refrain from specifics given the discussion above about when to talk about it, but for me, this was the best of the series to date!


And that's why I think the forum rules need to come into the 21st century. Here we have an episode that is legitimately available, that people have watched, and that apparently we're not allowed to discuss.

Talk about a buzz-kill!


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

It's BS because it's not available to everyone. I as a comcast customer cannot watch this. Everyone should follow the damn rules. It's already hard enough for all you people that have read the books to not spoil everything. Now you're claiming you can do it before the show even comes on.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

DavidTigerFan said:


> It's BS because it's not available to everyone. I as a comcast customer cannot watch this. Everyone should follow the damn rules. It's already hard enough for all you people that have read the books to not spoil everything. Now you're claiming you can do it before the show even comes on.


i have no problem waiting until Sunday when it airs "for real" to talk about it in more detail. all i can say is "it rocked!"


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Man!

Ned is like a 5 year old playing in the NFL. He has no chance.

Where is Jaime and his army? I thought they would be at King's Landing by now. That's how I thought Ned would be defeated, not by LittleFinger.

This is the second episode in a row where someone I thought would be a major character for the duration of the show is killed off.

I may have to just wait a month and watch all the episodes left back to back on the final weekend. That may be preferable to waiting a week between episodes. This show is fantastic.

Thank God Aryia and Sansa were shipped off back to Winterfell...


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Anubys said:


> This show is fantastic


i can't wait to see how the next 3 go - it's sooo good!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pjenkins said:


> i have no problem waiting until Sunday when it airs "for real" to talk about it in more detail. all i can say is "it rocked!"





pjenkins said:


> i can't wait to see how the next 3 go - it's sooo good!


What scintillating detail!


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

How the heck is Ned going to get out of this one? I like everything about this show so far but he gots to be dead within the first five minutes of the next episode or I may question the reasoning.

They really didn't need to have the captured poisoner be buck nekkid. I could have lived without that.

I assume that the Littlefinger bedroom scene with the two whores was supposed to mean something but I have no idea what.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> I assume that the Littlefinger bedroom scene with the two whores was supposed to mean something but I have no idea what.


It meant they didn't trust that the viewers could pay attention to exposition without fingerbanging going on. I really did not like that scene. Basically, it just was to tell you, hey Little Finger is willing to be dishonorable to get ahead.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Damn episode ended just as it started to get good. 

Considering little finger is such dear friends with Ned's wife I think he's got a plan to save Ned, but align himself (even temporarily if not permanently) with the Lannister's since it's obvious they are playing to win. Ned's in over his head, he obviously doesn't understand that only winners get to write history and receive great honor.

As for the HBOGo debate
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8544249


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

robojerk said:


> Damn episode ended just as it started to get good.
> 
> Considering little finger is such dear friends with Ned's wife I think he's got a plan to save Ned, but align himself (even temporarily if not permanently) with the Lannister's since it's obvious they are playing to win. Ned's in over his head, he obviously doesn't understand that only winners get to write history and receive great honor.
> 
> ...


Yeah, when little finger mentioned Ned's "honor", I thought of that knight that fought "with honor" against Imp Lannister's champion, and ended up in the hole.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Moved this comment to the debate thread about watching & discussing shows that have aired early.


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

robojerk said:


> Considering little finger is such dear friends with Ned's wife I think he's got a plan to save Ned, but align himself (even temporarily if not permanently) with the Lannister's since it's obvious they are playing to win.


I don't think they're friends. It's more like Littlefinger wanted her to be his wife but Ned's brother and then Ned himself got in the way by marrying Catelyn. If he gets rid of Ned he takes care of several problems at once. And remember, he was telling the prostitute that he wanted everything which I took to mean included the woman he always wanted.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

squint said:


> I don't think they're friends. It's more like Littlefinger wanted her to be his wife but Ned's brother and then Ned himself got in the way by marrying Catelyn. If he gets rid of Ned he takes care of several problems at once. And remember, he was telling the prostitute that he wanted everything which I took to mean included the woman he always wanted.


I'm not sure about women's rights in the Westeros, but why would Mrs. Stark want to be Littlefinger's wife after that betrayal. I would bet she would be unhappy with that arrangement.
Littlefinger would be better off to let the Lannisters dispose of Ned, and then he could console the grieving widow and marry her to protect her, and her children.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I loved King Robert--so sorry to see him go. 

If I were Ned, I'd take my marbles and go home to Winterfell and prepare for the Winter. When Drago comes across the sea you won't want to be King, or be in King's Landing. Maybe we'll get lucky an he'll kill all the Lannisters except Tyrion. 

What is a Shadow Wolf?

I saw on another site that people were complaining about cruelty to animals. Glad no one is doing that here. The scene with Lady was really sad, but butchering animals for food is hardly cruelty, and can't see anyone complaining about it unless they're a vegetarian, which the majority of us aren't. The Mountain is a little excessive with his horses, but we know he's crazy. 

Is it possible that Littlefinger wants to be the one holding Ned so he can save him and doublecross the Lannisters? I hope Cat and the girls are safely back in Winterfell by now, and where is the Imp? He should be back by now. 

So they gave us some male frontal nudity. Thanks a lot.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> When Drago comes across the sea you won't want to be King, or be in King's Landing.


Does he even own a shirt?


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Does he need to own a shirt?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

The actor who plays him certainly doesn't seem concerned about being typecast. Between Drogo, Ronon Dex (from Stargate Atlantis), and the upcoming remake of Conan the Barbarian, he's pretty much cornered the fantasy barbarian market.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I'm not sure Littlefinger wants Cat to love him and be his wife anymore--or at least I don't know that he realistically thinks that's possible. At this point it seems more like he wants to hurt her as she hurt him (remember how she "shamed" him by convincing Brandon (Ned's brother) to not hurt him in the duel). I wouldn't be surprised if his plan is to ruin her and take her in as a slave or servant or something similar. He seems pretty vindictive.

Do we know that the girls got away? We saw Ned talking to them but we never saw them actually leaving.

Ned had plenty of chances to take his marbles and go home, but he's too stubborn (or honorable?) to take them. Now he's in for it for sure.

Have we met/do we know this guy Stannis (Robert's brother?) That seemed to come out of left field.

What's the deal with the dead hand that Jon's wolf found? Creepy.

I always wonder what the underlying motivation is for people who overthrow the crown. I mean, if the king is evil as apparently this Mad King was then that's one thing. And Robert was certainly no peach of a king, although he seemed generally honorable. But why would anyone scheme to put Cersei/Joffery on the throne, over Ned? Yes, Ned is stiff-necked about honor and all that stuff, but what's in it for people like Littlefinger or Verys to choose Cersei over Ned? They're not going to get more power (they are already pretty much as powerful as they can get without being royal blood, it seems to me) and the kingdom is going to fall apart.

I guess I can understand Littlefinger wanting to take out the Starks for personal reasons, although it seems uncharacteristically shortsighted of him. But wasn't that Verys that Arya overheard scheming to get Drogo to attack the kingdoms once they were divided? What's in it for him? Why would he prefer the Targaryens to the current rulers?

And finally and most importantly, how can there be only two episodes left in this season!?!?!? _Argh!!_


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Peter000 said:


> Does he need to own a shirt?


If I was built like him, I know I'd save a lot of money by not buying shirts. 

I didn't follow the part at the wall. Who was the guy that screwed Jon Snow and why did he do it?

tk


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

pendragn said:


> If I was built like him, I know I'd save a lot of money by not buying shirts.
> 
> I didn't follow the part at the wall. Who was the guy that screwed Jon Snow and why did he do it?
> 
> tk


He was the guy who trained new wall recruits, and it was revenge for Jon Snow's defiance all season. And probably a bit of jealousy of Jon's abilities.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Fantastic episode. I'm reading the books, but am only to about episode 3/4. I do wish I had read the books first (someone made a comment a few weeks ago, they'd rather the books spoil the series than vice versa, and I agree). But the series is so good there ain't no way I'm gonna wait until I finish reading to watch. Life's a b*tch.

Agree about Ned. He may have honor, but he is way out of his league. He'll need some real benefactors to survive this.



cheesesteak said:


> They really didn't need to have the captured poisoner be buck nekkid. I could have lived without that.





stellie93 said:


> So they gave us some male frontal nudity. Thanks a lot.


The sight of a penis is that upsetting? I thought it gave some reality to that scene. Especially liked that he appeared to be tied to the khaleesi's horse. Seeing as how she's adapting so quickly to life in the tribe, I imagine she'll be prodding silver into a gallop shortly.



stellie93 said:


> I saw on another site that people were complaining about cruelty to animals. Glad no one is doing that here. The scene with Lady was really sad, but butchering animals for food is hardly cruelty, and can't see anyone complaining about it unless they're a vegetarian, which the majority of us aren't. The Mountain is a little excessive with his horses, but we know he's crazy.


It's a TV show. That's like complaining about the horrific loss of life we're seeing. It's not real life.

Or maybe the Mountain really did behead that horse? Nah.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

pendragn said:


> I didn't follow the part at the wall. Who was the guy that screwed Jon Snow and why did he do it?
> 
> tk


He is like the Sergeant who trains the recruits. Jon undermined him multiple times during the training (especially with the fat friend).

as for Little Finger, I thought what he wants now is to be King, not just to get the girl or revenge (of course, he would get those when he is king). He wants _*everything*_.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

robojerk said:


> Have we met/do we know this guy Stannis (Robert's brother?) That seemed to come out of left field
> 
> But why would anyone scheme to put Cersei/Joffery on the throne, over Ned? Yes, Ned is stiff-necked about honor and all that stuff, but what's in it for people like Littlefinger or Verys to choose Cersei over Ned? They're not going to get more power (they are already pretty much as powerful as they can get without being royal blood, it seems to me) and the kingdom is going to fall apart.
> 
> But wasn't that Verys that Arya overheard scheming to get Drogo to attack the kingdoms once they were divided? What's in it for him? Why would he prefer the Targaryens to the current ruler?


In the recap they said we haven't seen Stannis yet. If that's a spoiler, you can assume I actually know we haven't seen him yet. 

I assume they are pretty corrupt--maybe lining their pockets from the treasury. That would end if Ned was in charge. And since the Lannisters are so rich, they probably pay for loyalty. Picking the strongest and richest guy to be King doesn't seem like a recipe for the kingdom falling apart to me. Of course, we know Ned is the hero, so he'll make a fight of it and probably win. I hope.....

I didn't get Verys either. The Targaryens are bad enough, but the Dothkari are just going to destroy the place, aren't they?


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

danterner said:


> The actor who plays him certainly doesn't seem concerned about being typecast. Between Drogo, Ronon Dex (from Stargate Atlantis), and the upcoming remake of Conan the Barbarian, he's pretty much cornered the fantasy barbarian market.


The weird part, he grew up in Iowa. He has Hawaiian ancestry, but grew up in a suburb of Des Moines. Not quite what you think of when you think of Iowa boys.

tk


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> How the heck is Ned going to get out of this one? I like everything about this show so far but he gots to be dead within the first five minutes of the next episode or I may question the reasoning.


My speculation (I haven't gotten this far in the book, so it's not spoilers) is that maybe Robert's brother has an army and comes to Ned's aid. That was my first thought when I wondered how Ned was going to get out of this alive.

I was sad to see Robert die, but it did make me feel a little better about one thing. (I'm spoiling the title of the next book)


Spoiler



The title of the next book is "A Clash of Kings." I was worried that would somehow be Ned and Robert, especially after the discussion about killing Danys. The fact that Robert died means it can't be Ned and Robert clashing, which makes me feel a little better.



tk


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Hmm, that's not my comment quoted above..


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> In the recap they said we haven't seen Stannis yet. If that's a spoiler, you can assume I actually know we haven't seen him yet.


You've attributed my post to robojerk, FYI.



stellie93 said:


> I assume they are pretty corrupt--maybe lining their pockets from the treasury. That would end if Ned was in charge. And since the Lannisters are so rich, they probably pay for loyalty. Picking the strongest and richest guy to be King doesn't seem like a recipe for the kingdom falling apart to me.


Maybe not in the abstract, but anyone who knows Cersei and Joffrey can see they are totally unsuited to rule. I expect we'll quickly see how really, really bad they are at it.



Anubys said:


> as for Little Finger, I thought what he wants now is to be King, not just to get the girl or revenge (of course, he would get those when he is king). He wants _*everything*_.


Yes maybe, but I don't know that Littlefinger is so far detached from reality that he really believes anyone would anoint him king. If he were the hereditary king they might put up with him, but to actually CHOOSE him to be king seems unlikely in the extreme. An unimposing person of minor nobility from a minor house far outside the mainstream? There are probably 50 people in line for the throne before him.



astrohip said:


> The sight of a penis is that upsetting? I thought it gave some reality to that scene.


Seriously. It always bemuses me how much crowing there is at any hint of female nudity, and then guys are retching behind the couch at the slightest hint of a penis. This show is supposed to be viewed only by adults, remember


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

robojerk said:


> Hmm, that's not my comment quoted above..


Sorry, I have no idea how that happened.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> The weird part, he grew up in Iowa. He has Hawaiian ancestry, but grew up in a suburb of Des Moines. Not quite what you think of when you think of Iowa boys.


Big hulking barbarian living in a pre-modern society? That's pretty much what _I_ think of.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Big hulking barbarian living in a pre-modern society? That's pretty much what _I_ think of.


very interesting. tell us more about those fantasies of yours


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> very interesting. tell us more about those fantasies of yours


Not a fantasy. More a nightmare. I live in Minnesota, you see, and we here in the civilized world always fear the invasion of those barbarians from the south...


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Not a fantasy. More a nightmare. I live in Minnesota, you see, and we here in the civilized world always fear the invasion of those barbarians from the south...


As well you should, as well you should...

tk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> As well you should, as well you should...


Especially if you all look like Jason Momoa!


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## drumorgan (Jan 11, 2003)

I'll say that I couldn't stop reading the book. So, I am officially out of the comment crew here. Interesting speculations from people though. Whatever happens, it is exciting. I know I am reading the books and I can't stop telling my wife, "Wow, stuff is happening!" And, the show is doing a great job of capturing that same excitement.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

drumorgan said:


> I'll say that I couldn't stop reading the book. So, I am officially out of the comment crew here. Interesting speculations from people though. Whatever happens, it is exciting. I know I am reading the books and I can't stop telling my wife, "Wow, stuff is happening!" And, the show is doing a great job of capturing that same excitement.


same here, i tried to keep NOT reading, but it did not work. it was just too good... so, i'll try to stay out of the commentary  the ending is sooo good imo though (to book1, that is)


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Question for those that have read the book...

No spoilers, but does the TV show follow the book pretty faithfully? I just started reading book one, and it seems to be so far, but I'm not even at the end of episode 1 in the book. I just don't feel like slogging through the rest of the book if it's pretty much what I've seen in the series, and maybe skip to the point in the book where we are in the series. (I know that's sort of book reading heresy, but I don't care... once this is over I'll start in on the second book from the beginning).

Thanks!


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

The TV show is sort of a "good parts version". Note all the backstory questions that people ask in these threads -- a lot of that info is given in the books.

As for some of the other questions and speculations here, all I can say is:

[River Song] Spoilers! [/River Song]



Patience, everyone. Wait and see.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> I just don't feel like slogging through the rest of the book if it's pretty much what I've seen in the series, and maybe skip to the point in the book where we are in the series. (I know that's sort of book reading heresy, but I don't care... once this is over I'll start in on the second book from the beginning).


If it's a slog, then why would you want to keep reading anyway? 

If you're enjoying it, keep going. If not, don't.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> If it's a slog, then why would you want to keep reading anyway?
> 
> If you're enjoying it, keep going. If not, don't.


It feels like a chore to read it when I already know what's gong to happen. It feels like discovery when I don't know.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> It feels like a chore to read it when I already know what's gong to happen. It feels like discovery when I don't know.


Then it's probably not the book for you.

I'm halfway through the first book right now, for the third time reading it and having seen the show so far. And I have trouble putting it down.

If it's a chore, seriously, don't read it!


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Then it's probably not the book for you.
> 
> I'm halfway through the first book right now, for the third time reading it and having seen the show so far. And I have trouble putting it down.


You should try something NEW instead of wasting time on something you've read.


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

I'm on the last half of the 4th book now and I'll admit there have been times when it felt like a bit of a slog. Not complaining, they're well worth the time and effort overall, but they are BIG books and sometimes it seems like a long while goes by where not a lot happens.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> It feels like a chore to read it when I already know what's gong to happen. It feels like discovery when I don't know.


Ah, but while the destination may be known, the route and the scenery is not.

The TV show can give us the broad strokes, and focus on a few scenes, but as with all translations from book to visual media, it is forced to leave much out, and re-arrange other things. Film and TV are visual media. They show you things. And they have to limit based on time and visual interest. A book has none of those limitations, and you can explore many things that the TV show is forced to gloss over.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

SurvivorFan said:


> I'm on the last half of the 4th book now and I'll admit there have been times when it felt like a bit of a slog. Not complaining, they're well worth the time and effort overall, but they are BIG books and sometimes it seems like a long while goes by where not a lot happens.


Whatever you do, do not read "The Wheel of Time". Book 6 is 900 pages of nothing happens.

After "The Wheel of Time", "Song of Ice and Fire" simply screams by!


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Ereth said:


> Ah, but while the destination may be known, the route and the scenery is not.


well said! I'm loving the show, even after reading the book so recently, they are doing a fabulous job with it, and I'm very intersted to see how they are choosing what to show, and the minor nuances they are changing/adding/highlighting are interesting for sure... I'm very interested in how they are going to show the final scene in the book in the show. No spoilers obviously, but lets just say I think it's going to be difficult to pull off and I'm interested to see how they do it and whether they keep that part true to the book...


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> You should try something NEW instead of wasting time on something you've read.


But you see, I ENJOY it. That's why I'm re-reading it. Because it's FUN.

My point is simply that you should read it if you're enjoying it, and you should stop if you're not. Sorry if that bothers you somehow...


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I'm watching & reading, and I enjoy both. I started watching first, so I didn't get any surprises from the book, but I liked the extra detail. I've roughly caught up to the show, so I'll soon find out if I continue to enjoy watching stuff I've already read, but I suspect I will.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

I bought the first book and read the first chapter several weeks ago just to see the style. I'll start it over again in a couple of weeks when we start our 3-week vacation on the lake. Perfect time for a good read. If I love it, I will probably continue on and read the next couple of books as well. We are also doing a long train vacation with a ton of reading time. Maybe I'll get the whole series done.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

TV.com has this article, Game of Thrones: How Much is the Show Departing From the Book?


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## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

I don't understand how Ned all of the sudden knows for a fact that Bran was pushed and that Jamie and Cersei are insestuous? This is all because of Sansa's comment about wanting to make babies with blond hair? It seems like it went from it being just a hunch last week (or a strong suspicion) to a fact this week, all of the sudden with no explaination?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

BK89 said:


> I don't understand how Ned all of the sudden knows for a fact that Bran was pushed and that Jamie and Cersei are insestuous? This is all because of Sansa's comment about wanting to make babies with blond hair? It seems like it went from it being just a hunch last week (or a strong suspicion) to a fact this week, all of the sudden with no explaination?


I'm just chalking it up to the fact they had to condense such a long book into 10 episodic parts.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

i don't really think it was all of a sudden, he had the book/history, he met the bastard/real son who had the resemblence/hair, and distrusted Cersei and the Lannisters from the start.


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

I didn't want to start a new thread for my question so I thought I would ask in a current active Game of Thrones thread.

I am not a Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter fan. I love SF but don't like pure fantasy with magic spells, elves, dwarfs, witches, crystal balls etc...

Given the above, would Game of Thrones be something I might enjoy?


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

I'm not a Lord of the Rings fan or Harry Potter fan and I like Game of Thrones. So far there hasn't been much in the way of supernatural/magic type stuff, although I fully expect to see a dragon at some point. Also, there seem to be some sort of supernatural zombie types in the woods. It is more fantasy.....a made-up world with different rules where unusual things--like a winter that lasts for years....can happen.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Johnny Dancing said:


> I didn't want to start a new thread for my question so I thought I would ask in a current active Game of Thrones thread.
> 
> I am not a Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter fan. I love SF but don't like pure fantasy with magic spells, elves, dwarfs, witches, crystal balls etc...
> 
> Given the above, would Game of Thrones be something I might enjoy?


I'd say so. So far, there hasn't been any "magic". It feels more like a medeval world with military & political intrigue than any traditional "magic" realm, though there are rumblings about magic, like the dragons Tracy mentioned.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

allan said:


> I'd say so. So far, there hasn't been any "magic". It feels more like a medieval world with military & political intrigue than any traditional "magic" realm, though there are rumblings about magic, like the dragons Tracy mentioned.


I've always thought of Song of Fire and Ice as being what high fantasy would be if written by a science fiction writer.

Which, of course, is exactly what it is. I like sci fi, I'm not a big fantasy fan, but I love these books.


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Before they figured out the blonde thing, they knew the knife pointed to the Lannisters trying to kill Bran, but they had no idea why. They're evil, but they don't go around killing kids for no reason. Then it all made sense. 

Who got the pardon for Mormont? Was that his payment for telling them about Dany's pregnancy? He didn't seem to be very excited about it. Or about his big reward for saving Dany's life. Woohoo, a horse. I guess that's a big prize to a Dothkari. I love this character--he has a cool accent or way of talking.


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## Fleegle (Jan 15, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Before they figured out the blonde thing, they knew the knife pointed to the Lannisters trying to kill Bran, but they had no idea why. They're evil, but they don't go around killing kids for no reason. Then it all made sense.
> 
> Who got the pardon for Mormont? Was that his payment for telling them about Dany's pregnancy? He didn't seem to be very excited about it. Or about his big reward for saving Dany's life. Woohoo, a horse. I guess that's a big prize to a Dothkari. I love this character--he has a cool accent or way of talking.


The boy who brought the pardon referreed to The Spider. I believe that is the eunich Varrys.

And yes, the Donraki are horse people. Horses are sacred to them. Khal Drogo telling Mormont that he can have his choice of ANY of his horses is an enormous honor. (In the book, Khal Drogo said Mormont could have any of his horses except his red stallion and Dany's silver mare. Not a big detail, but one glossed over in the show)


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But you see, I ENJOY it. That's why I'm re-reading it. Because it's FUN.
> 
> My point is simply that you should read it if you're enjoying it, and you should stop if you're not. Sorry if that bothers you somehow...


I was being sarcastic. Making the point that it's just as ludicrous for me to tell you to stop wasting time re-reading as it is for you to tell me that I won't enjoy the books.

Just stop giving advice already.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Peter000 said:


> I was being sarcastic. Making the point that it's just as ludicrous for me to tell you to stop wasting time re-reading as it is for you to tell me that I won't enjoy the books.
> 
> Just stop giving advice already.


your post didn't come across as sacastic at all, at least to me. try smilies or something like </sarcasm> - of course this is advice which you appear to not be interested in either, so... hmmm.. this is probably best suited for that "aborted replies" thread but i'll hit post anyway here


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> I was being sarcastic. Making the point that it's just as ludicrous for me to tell you to stop wasting time re-reading as it is for you to tell me that I won't enjoy the books.
> 
> Just stop giving advice already.


???

I guess that's good advice. Because I never told you you wouldn't enjoy the books. I only advised that if you enjoy them, read them; if not, don't.

I'm sorry I pissed you off. I wish I had a clue as to why.


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## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Before they figured out the blonde thing, they knew the knife pointed to the Lannisters trying to kill Bran, but they had no idea why. They're evil, but they don't go around killing kids for no reason. Then it all made sense.


Well, we as the viewer know but Ned doesn't know for a fact. That is a pretty big leap to make if he is wrong. I would have thought he would need some actual proof before calling out the queen, not just a book listing hair colors.


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> ???
> 
> I guess that's good advice. Because I never told you you wouldn't enjoy the books. I only advised that if you enjoy them, read them; if not, don't.
> 
> I'm sorry I pissed you off. I wish I had a clue as to why.


What you seem to be saying is that if I don't enjoy every moment of reading the books, I shouldn't read them, or I wouldn't like them as a whole. Which is a concept I wholly reject.

And what pisses me off is you are treating me like I don't DESERVE to read the books because of my question, or my attitude or something.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> What you seem to be saying is that if I don't enjoy every moment of reading the books, I shouldn't read them, or I wouldn't like them as a whole. Which is a concept I wholly reject.
> 
> And what pisses me off is you are treating me like I don't DESERVE to read the books because of my question, or my attitude or something.


I'm sorry you got that; it certainly wasn't my intent.

I was just going by your use of words like "slog" and "chore," and suggesting that if that's your reaction, why read it?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

robojerk said:


> TV.com has this article, Game of Thrones: How Much is the Show Departing From the Book?


This article is pretty good and very light on the spoilers. I would advise that you stop reading when you get to White Walkers, which is close to the end.

The author said that he wrote the books because he was tired of always being limited in budget and time by writing for tv, so he went crazy with characters, and locations and wrote something that would never be possible to put on tv.


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## bobino (Jul 24, 2002)

BK89 said:


> Well, we as the viewer know but Ned doesn't know for a fact. That is a pretty big leap to make if he is wrong. I would have thought he would need some actual proof before calling out the queen, not just a book listing hair colors.


Well, there are two other clues. Not "beyond a shadow of doubt" clues, but they are additional evidence.

1. Long blonde hair in the room with the window from which Bran fell/was thrown.
2. The dagger used in he attempt on Bran's life was won a bet by Tyrion Lannister.

I think Ned would know these clues from when he talked with Catelyn in King's Landing. None of these are sufficient to accuse Cercei, and Ned isn't prone to knee-jerk reactions until he gets to King's Landing. Summoning Tywin Lannister was pretty outrageous in my opinion.

-Bob


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm sorry you got that; it certainly wasn't my intent.
> 
> I was just going by your use of words like "slog" and "chore," and suggesting that if that's your reaction, why read it?


And I explained why, and you didn't accept that explanation.

But I over-reacted, and I apologize for that. I don't hate you or anything.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

OK maybe I missed this one, but when Littlefinger was talking to the two whores about the "love of his life" who is he talking about? Ned's wife? The Queen? Someone we haven't seen yet? When watching it I thought it was supposed to be obvious to the viewer, but I could be wrong. 

If this is some as yet unrevealed plot twist then just say as much, and I'll be OK, but I was left wondering about that one after I watched it.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

tiassa said:


> OK maybe I missed this one, but when Littlefinger was talking to the two whores about the "love of his life" who is he talking about? Ned's wife? The Queen? Someone we haven't seen yet? When watching it I thought it was supposed to be obvious to the viewer, but I could be wrong.
> 
> If this is some as yet unrevealed plot twist then just say as much, and I'll be OK, but I was left wondering about that one after I watched it.


I am kind of wondering the same myself, but all the recaps and other people say he's talking about Ned's wife. I just made a mental note to myself so if we get any new info about the "love of his life" that contradicts what people are saying then it might shed new light on whats going on. However I'm pretty sure the people that have read the books inadvertently confirmed that it was Ned's life.


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

bobino said:


> None of these are sufficient to accuse Cercei, and Ned isn't prone to knee-jerk reactions until he gets to King's Landing. Summoning Tywin Lannister was pretty outrageous in my opinion.


He didn't summon Tywin Lannister to accuse him or his family in the attempted murder of Bran, or even to discuss whether or not Joffrey is Robert's son. He summoned Tywin because Tywin is the liege lord of Gregor Clegane (the Mountain--the Hound's older brother) and Gregor was accused (and, apparently, judged guilty by Ned) of the pillaging of villages, rape and murder. Remember the scene in the throne room with the villagers. Ned summoned Tywin to court to answer for his retainer. I agree it was bold but I don't know if I'd say it was outrageous. Lords are responsible for their retainers, after all.



robojerk said:


> I am kind of wondering the same myself, but all the recaps and other people say he's talking about Ned's wife. I just made a mental note to myself so if we get any new info about the "love of his life" that contradicts what people are saying then it might shed new light on whats going on. However I'm pretty sure the people that have read the books inadvertently confirmed that it was Ned's wife.


I thought it was pretty clear: I haven't read the books but in the earlier episode where Cat comes to King's Landing and meets Littlefinger, they have a conversation about their shared past and it's clear Littlefinger had a thing for Cat and they both knew it. After the story he tells Ros and the other prostitute I thought it was even more clear that it was Cat.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I wish the EW recapper of the Vampire Diaries recapped this show on the EW site.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

When both Cat and Ned are in Kings Landing they have a brief conversation about Littlefinger and Ned says "He still loves you" to which Cat replies, with a look on her face that says she thought that was obvious, something to the effect of "You think?".

Yes, I've read the book, but that scene was on the screen so it's not a spoiler.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

Boy am I glad I didn't quit this show when I was confused at the beginning. These last two episodes rank up there with some of the most interesting TV I've ever seen. I've gone from it being a chore to want to watch the next episode to it being must see. I still don't get all the characters, but I'm "reading" the book (actually listening to the mp3s in my car) and I'm still at the first episode, but, I'm guessing a lot of the back story will be explained.

I did not see Littlefinger's double cross of Ned coming.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> I did not see Littlefinger's double cross of Ned coming.


Well, he DID tell Ned not to trust him!


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## Johnny Dancing (Sep 3, 2000)

Ok, thanks. I think I'll watch the first few episodes and go from there.



Tracy said:


> I'm not a Lord of the Rings fan or Harry Potter fan and I like Game of Thrones. So far there hasn't been much in the way of supernatural/magic type stuff, although I fully expect to see a dragon at some point. Also, there seem to be some sort of supernatural zombie types in the woods. It is more fantasy.....a made-up world with different rules where unusual things--like a winter that lasts for years....can happen.





allan said:


> I'd say so. So far, there hasn't been any "magic". It feels more like a medeval world with military & political intrigue than any traditional "magic" realm, though there are rumblings about magic, like the dragons Tracy mentioned.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> I've always thought of Song of Fire and Ice as being what high fantasy would be if written by a science fiction writer.
> 
> Which, of course, is exactly what it is. I like sci fi, I'm not a big fantasy fan, but I love these books.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

tiassa said:


> OK maybe I missed this one, but when Littlefinger was talking to the two whores about the "love of his life" who is he talking about? Ned's wife? The Queen? Someone we haven't seen yet? When watching it I thought it was supposed to be obvious to the viewer, but I could be wrong.
> 
> If this is some as yet unrevealed plot twist then just say as much, and I'll be OK, but I was left wondering about that one after I watched it.


Not sure how much of this is book versus show, so I'll put in spoilers. It really doesn't change anything imo and isn't about anything in the future, but thought i'd be safe



Spoiler



Littlefinger (Petyr) was in love with Ned's wife Catelyn when they were children. He was younger than her and she considered him a good friend and confidant, but nothing more. She (Cat), was in love with Ned's brother Brandon Stark and they had planned to get married. Littlefinger challenged Brandon to a duel - a fools challenge given his capabilities, and Brandon won but did not kill him at Cat's insistence, he merely left him a scare (which Littlefinger references in the scene with the whores).

Brandon died before marrying Catelyn, at the hand of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen (a pretty gruesome death as well).

Cat married Eddard (Ned) after that, as custom dictated.


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## Mr. Merkin (May 6, 2005)

I thought it was somewhat odd that the Queen could just tear up the King's letter so boldly in front of everyone and then have everyone act like it never happened. Was also a bit surprised how willingly she admitted the incest and parentage of the children to Ned.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

She'd already bought everyone in the room.

Sent from my rockin' Nexus One


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## BK89 (Oct 11, 2005)

I agree, why wouldnt the Queen just deny it? Or ask Ned for proof (which he has none).


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BK89 said:


> I agree, why wouldnt the Queen just deny it? Or ask Ned for proof (which he has none).


She was taunting him. Nobody else was there. She can always deny it later.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

good article

http://www.accesshollywood.com/mark...rama-school-classmate-sean-bean_article_48629


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She was taunting him. Nobody else was there. She can always deny it later.


Ah, but she didn't know he was carrying a pocket recorder which captured her every word!


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

pjenkins said:


> Not sure how much of this is book versus show, so I'll put in spoilers. It really doesn't change anything imo and isn't about anything in the future, but thought i'd be safe
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More detail on your above spoiler - it's not 'spoilery' as to the story, but it does explain some of the relationships for those who have not read the books.



Spoiler



Cat didn't love Brandon, but she was /promised/ to Brandon. The mariage of Cat to Brandon Stark was a political alliance between House Tully and House Stark, the Tully's were Stark bannermen. Brandon died, and Catelyn was then wed to Ned Stark, though she didn't love him at first.

She gave her favor to Brandon in the duel because it was the proper thing for her to do, not out of love.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Huh? Brandon was in love with his own sister? Admittedly, that sort of thing seems to happen more often in this story than you would think, but I didn't think the Starks had that problem.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

john4200 said:


> Huh? Brandon was in love with his own sister? Admittedly, that sort of thing seems to happen more often in this story than you would think, but I didn't think the Starks had that problem.


No, I mixded up my Starks and my Baratheons. My fault. I fixed it


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

Can someone confirm that I have this right?

Robert was king. Before that it was the Mad King? The mad king killed Ned Stark's father by burning him up in his armor and was later killed by the Lannister brother. 

And the mad king was a Targaryeon, who are the blonde people? So Dany and her dead brother were the children of the mad king and they want to attack King's Landing to regain the crown that should have passed to them?

I feel I must have this wrong.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Tracy said:


> Can someone confirm that I have this right?
> 
> Robert was king. Before that it was the Mad King? The mad king killed Ned Stark's father by burning him up in his armor and was later killed by the Lannister brother.
> 
> ...


I missed/forgot how Stark's father died, but otherwise, it sounds right to me.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

Tracy said:


> Can someone confirm that I have this right?
> 
> Robert was king. Before that it was the Mad King? The mad king killed Ned Stark's father by burning him up in his armor and was later killed by the Lannister brother.
> 
> ...


nope, that's correct. Dany and Viserys are Targaryeons and want their kingdom back.

there is a wiki for the book @ http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php - probably contains spoilers so visit with caution!!


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, he DID tell Ned not to trust him!












It's a new meme called "Introducing: Stupid Ned Stark", heh.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/donnad/introducing-stupid-ned-stark

Greg


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Tracy said:


> Can someone confirm that I have this right?
> 
> Robert was king. Before that it was the Mad King? The mad king killed Ned Stark's father by burning him up in his armor and was later killed by the Lannister brother.
> 
> ...


The blonde people are the Lannisters - Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion & Lord Tywin.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JoBeth66 said:


> The blonde people are the Lannisters - Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion & Lord Tywin.


Actually, the Targaryeons (Daenerys and Viserys) are blond people too.


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## tiassa (Jul 2, 2008)

pjenkins said:


> nope, that's correct. Dany and Viserys are Targaryeons and want their kingdom back.


Well, Viserys isn't in a position to want much of anything anymore, but your point is still valid.


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

tiassa said:


> Well, Viserys isn't in a position to want much of anything anymore, but your point is still valid.


lol, so true  just watched a clip from the actor who played Viserys about filming that scene. really digging HBOGo to re-watch the episodes, their "extra" features really bring the show to life!


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## murgatroyd (Jan 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I did not see Littlefinger's double cross of Ned coming.


That's the beauty of what Martin is doing. There is so much stuff going on, it is easy to get caught up in some piece of the story, and not consider others, and meanwhile GRRM is bringing around something on your blind side to whup you upside the head.

In a less-complicated story, it would be obvious. The man who has a long-standing Thing for your wife (and who is sniffing around your daughter, saying how much she reminds him of her mother at that age) is the last person in the world a guy should trust.

But Ned's backed into a corner, trapped in part by his wife's blind trust; he has to ask Littlefinger for help whether he likes it or not.

And Martin distracts you by waving some other choice item under your nose and saying "look over here".

So if people chastise you and say "I thought it was obvious Littlefinger was going to do Ned wrong" don't worry. You'll probably spot other 'obvious' things that other people miss.

The real genius of the books is that Martin constantly surprises us, but on the second reading, it's clear how he has set everything up. He is obvious and wildly unpredictable, all at the same time. Kinda like real life, that way.


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## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Actually, the Targaryeons (Daenerys and Viserys) are blond people too.


Their hair is described as 'silver-gold', which I take to mean more white than blonde. 

The Lannsiter's are described as having golden hair.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

murgatroyd said:


> That's the beauty of what Martin is doing. There is so much stuff going on, it is easy to get caught up in some piece of the story, and not consider others, and meanwhile GRRM is bringing around something on your blind side to whup you upside the head.
> 
> In a less-complicated story, it would be obvious. The man who has a long-standing Thing for your wife (and who is sniffing around your daughter, saying how much she reminds him of her mother at that age) is the last person in the world a guy should trust.
> 
> ...


As a fan of intricate spy novels by the likes of Len Deighton and Robert Lundlum, I appreciate these types of plot twists. Predicting everything that's going to happen before it happens ruins a lot of the fun


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Tracy said:


> Can someone confirm that I have this right?
> 
> Robert was king. Before that it was the Mad King? The mad king killed Ned Stark's father by burning him up in his armor and was later killed by the Lannister brother.
> 
> ...


as others have said, you got it right. The only detail missing is the the mad king killed Ned's father *and brother*

I'm in the camp that thinks Littlefinger did this to save Ned's life. There was no way out other than to support the Lannisters at that point. But I don't think he's in their camp. Lose a battle to win the war kind of move.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JoBeth66 said:


> Their hair is described as 'silver-gold', which I take to mean more white than blonde.
> 
> The Lannsiter's are described as having golden hair.


But to somebody who's watching the show and asking "Who are the blond people?", "The Lannisters" is probably an inadequate and misleading answer...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Anubys said:


> I'm in the camp that thinks Littlefinger did this to save Ned's life. There was no way out other than to support the Lannisters at that point. But I don't think he's in their camp. Lose a battle to win the war kind of move.


I can see that but if I'm the queen or Joffrey, Ned's dead eight seconds after the opening credits of this Sunday's episode and his wife shortly thereafter.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> I can see that but if I'm the queen or Joffrey, Ned's dead eight seconds after the opening credits of this Sunday's episode and his wife shortly thereafter.


I'm thinking it may actually be the Queen who spares Ned's life, in an attempt at putting him in a position where he's indebted to her.


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## NoThru22 (May 6, 2005)

You know, if Robert's mother was blonde, then his son could've been blonde as well... 

Also, why is Eddard's nickname Ned and not Ed?


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

Do I have this right: the Wall bisects the main continental landmass into North and South regions. But when people talk about someone being "from the North," they really mean "the northern part of the southern section" and not "north of the wall" since north of the wall is just wildings and white walkers etc. Right?


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

NoThru22 said:


> You know, if Robert's mother was blonde, then his son could've been blonde as well...
> 
> Also, why is Eddard's nickname Ned and not Ed?


Cause that's what his friends call him.



danterner said:


> Do I have this right: the Wall bisects the main continental landmass into North and South regions. But when people talk about someone being "from the North," they really mean "the northern part of the southern section" and not "north of the wall" since north of the wall is just wildings and white walkers etc. Right?


Yes...ish. The wall is very, very far up north. Northerners are North of the rest of the continent but still south of the wall. Wildlings and White Walkers are on the other side, and as they said last week, they just call everyone southerners.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danterner said:


> Do I have this right: the Wall bisects the main continental landmass into North and South regions. But when people talk about someone being "from the North," they really mean "the northern part of the southern section" and not "north of the wall" since north of the wall is just wildings and white walkers etc. Right?


Correct.

The Wall doesn't really bisect the land into North and South; it bisects it into This Side and Beyond. North and South are both below the wall.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

cheesesteak said:


> I can see that but if I'm the queen or Joffrey, Ned's dead eight seconds after the opening credits of this Sunday's episode and his wife shortly thereafter.


The queen still thinks Ned's wife, Catelyn, still has her brother the imp. However I can assume they'll order his death immediately after word arrives that he's survived a trial by might. However Joffrey hates his uncle so he might order it anyway and he's now the king.


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## Tracy (Mar 12, 2000)

I did mean Dany as the "blonde" people. The Lannisters seem only blonde-ish to me.

So, the Lannisters are a family, otherwise known as a House. And the Targaryeons are also just a family? They aren't a race? Is Dany now the last of the Targaryeons?

Are the Dothraki a race?


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

Tracy said:


> I did mean Dany as the "blonde" people. The Lannisters seem only blonde-ish to me.
> 
> So, the Lannisters are a family, otherwise known as a House. And the Targaryeons are also just a family? They aren't a race? Is Dany now the last of the Targaryeons?
> 
> Are the Dothraki a race?


The Lannisters are a family, otherwise known as a House. The Targaryeons are a family, but they don't have a physical house (they're still a "house"), because they were ousted from the throne. Dany is the last line of her family (well her child is) The Dothraki in the books are a homogeneous race, not as much in the show.

The Targaryeans came from Valyria if that's what you mean by race, but that really hasn't been brought up in the show, nor the political landscape of Westeros at the time that they took charge. Hell, it's kinda confusing even in the books, (7 "kingdoms" which technically at this point is just one kingdom, but 9 major houses, etc.)


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

HBO Guide to the houses of GoT
This guide is safe as HBO doesn't want to spoil viewers who have not read the books.
If you look anywhere else you'll probably find lots of spoilers.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

robojerk said:


> HBO Guide to the houses of GoT
> This guide is safe as HBO doesn't want to spoil viewers who have not read the books.
> If you look anywhere else you'll probably find lots of spoilers.


That's a great guide! I was trying to figure out who the fat, bald guy was, and I knew they kept referring to someone who was a eunich, but I never put two and two together. Very helpful.

Greg


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Aniketos said:


> Dany is the last line of her family (well her child is)


Point of order: her child is just a fetus, and does not have any rights until born, and so is not (yet) the last of the line.

As for Valyria:


Spoiler



too bad they completely ignored the concept of "Valyrian steel" for the show


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't get why Greyjoy is at Winterfell. I thought at first that Ned killed off all his family, but this week he says his father is at home in the Iron Islands. Why does he let his heir live as a prisoner/guest in Winterfell? Has he even attempted to get him back? Why would Ned keep him--doesn't seem like something Ned would do.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

stellie93 said:


> I don't get why Greyjoy is at Winterfell. I thought at first that Ned killed off all his family, but this week he says his father is at home in the Iron Islands. Why does he let his heir live as a prisoner/guest in Winterfell? Has he even attempted to get him back? Why would Ned keep him--doesn't seem like something Ned would do.


I think this is rght:
Theon's dad attempted to break away from the kingdom, as punishment (and insurance to keep the Lord Greyjoy from trying again) his only surviving son was sent to Ned Stark to be raised.

Theon and the Stark's "seem" to get along pretty well aside from the politics of his presence.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

robojerk said:


> I think this is rght:
> Theon's dad attempted to break away from the kingdom, as punishment (and insurance to keep the Lord Greyjoy from trying again) his only surviving son was sent to Ned Stark to be raised.
> 
> Theon and the Stark's "seem" to get along pretty well aside from the politics of his presence.


Yes, this is it. Theon is being held hostage for his father's good behavior.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Yes, this is it. Theon is being held hostage for his father's good behavior.


"Hostage" in the old sense of the word...not a prisoner so much as an honored guest who doesn't dare leave for fear of bringing the fires of hell down on his family.


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

robojerk said:


> I think this is rght:
> Theon's dad attempted to break away from the kingdom, as punishment (and insurance to keep the Lord Greyjoy from trying again) his only surviving son was sent to Ned Stark to be raised.
> 
> Theon and the Stark's "seem" to get along pretty well aside from the politics of his presence.





JETarpon said:


> Yes, this is it. Theon is being held hostage for his father's good behavior.





Rob Helmerichs said:


> "Hostage" in the old sense of the word...not a prisoner so much as an honored guest who doesn't dare leave for fear of bringing the fires of hell down on his family.


To expound on that, if it wasn't clear in the show the distinction between the two fights. (Sorry, if I get exact numbers messed up since books and show differ in number slightly, also, I've been drinking.)

"Robert's Rebellion", in which they killed the Mad King Targaryeon and Robert took the crown was seventeen years ago. Nine years ago, Theon Greyjoy's father rebelled against Robert and was put down. In that rebellion Theon was taken as a "ward" (hostage in the historical sense) by Ned. This goes with my earlier post of why there are nine houses and only seven kingdoms (The Greyjoys lost their status as a great house, and blahblahblah I won't get into it, sorry for bringing up backstory not presented in the show)


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I must say, that "reading" the book,


Spoiler



and I'm only just past Dany's wedding and the telling of Ned's distrust of the Lannisters


 has definitely helped me understand a lot of what is going on. This actually might one of the rare cases where, I think seeing the TV show is also helping me understand some things in the book as well.

Does anyone know if this season is the whole first book or is the whole series going to be just this one book?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> I must say, that "reading" the book,
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


my understanding is that each season will be one book


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> my understanding is that each season will be one book


Martin is hoping that some books will be divided into two seasons as necessary, but definitely Season 1=Book 1...


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

The scene where Tywin is dressing down Jaime - it sure looked like the actor was REALLY skinning a dead dear. If that was a prop... it sure was a good one.


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## SurvivorFan (Mar 9, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that was a real deer being skinned. Why go to the time and expense of creating a convincing prop when the real thing is readily available?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

SurvivorFan said:


> I'm pretty sure that was a real deer being skinned. Why go to the time and expense of creating a convincing prop when the real thing is readily available?


first, the actor has to have been hunting for all his life to do that so effortlessly (and deliver his lines).

second, I sure hope they got everything on the first take (or else they had a 100 deer handy!)


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## squint (Jun 15, 2008)

I just hope the horse that was nearly decapitated at the jousting tournament wasn't real.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> first, the actor has to have been hunting for all his life to do that so effortlessly (and deliver his lines).


Or just really good. Some actors have a knack for picking up pretty remarkable skills for a role.

E.g., Jessica Biel learned archery for Blade 3.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

clearly, Jessica picked up archery better than Rob picked up posting youtube video


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> clearly, Jessica picked up archery better than Rob picked up posting youtube video


Heh. Weird, I edited it twice before I got it right (it never seems right to me that the "YZ tag" isn't the YouTube number), and instead of editing, it reposted. How on Earth did THAT happen?!?


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

I'd love to see Jessica Biel in GoT.

But then, I'd love to see Jessica Biel in EVERY film.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dandrewk said:


> I'd love to see Jessica Biel in GoT.
> 
> But then, I'd love to see Jessica Biel in EVERY film.


I like her better as a person than as an actor. In interviews, she seems fun, engaging, a little geeky. Onscreen, she seems wooden.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I like her better as a person than as an actor. In interviews, she seems fun, engaging, a little geeky. Onscreen, she seems wooden.


For some reason, never really noticed her acting abilities.


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## dandrewk (Mar 1, 2004)

Anubys said:


> first, the actor has to have been hunting for all his life to do that so effortlessly (and deliver his lines).
> 
> second, I sure hope they got everything on the first take (or else they had a 100 deer handy!)


That was one powerful scene. With Tywin giving his son an earful, skillfully skinning that deer was perfect for the atmosphere. His words were cold and precise, as if he was eviscerating Jaime and the beast at the same time.


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## drumorgan (Jan 11, 2003)

That scene was NOT in the books, right? Interesting how they skillfully put in the exposition without you really knowing it.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

drumorgan said:


> That scene was NOT in the books, right? Interesting how they skillfully put in the exposition without you really knowing it.


Spoiling because it describes a scene from the book not shown in the show, although there's no new information:


Spoiler



I *just* read the part of the book today where the fat kid of the night's watch is telling Jon about how his father told him that he had to join the night's watch or his father would kill him. In that scene the fat kid's father was gutting a dear while he talked to him, almost exacly like the scene in the show with Tywin and Jaime. I haven't gotten far enough enough in the book to get to this scene.



tk


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

pendragn said:


> Spoiling because it describes a scene from the book not shown in the show, although there's no new information:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Kinda scary that Tywin is _far _from the worst father in the books...


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## DUDE_NJX (Feb 12, 2003)

Aniketos said:


> To expound on that, if it wasn't clear in the show the distinction between the two fights. (Sorry, if I get exact numbers messed up since books and show differ in number slightly, also, I've been drinking.)
> 
> "Robert's Rebellion", in which they killed the Mad King Targaryeon and Robert took the crown was seventeen years ago. Nine years ago, Theon Greyjoy's father rebelled against Robert and was put down. In that rebellion Theon was taken as a "ward" (hostage in the historical sense) by Ned. This goes with my earlier post of why there are nine houses and only seven kingdoms (The Greyjoys lost their status as a great house, and blahblahblah I won't get into it, sorry for bringing up backstory not presented in the show)


So they killed the Mad King 17 yrs ago, but his daughter is 13?


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## Aniketos (Mar 6, 2006)

DUDE_NJX said:


> So they killed the Mad King 17 yrs ago, but his daughter is 13?


Dany is 17 in the show. In the books it's Robert's Rebellion 14-15 years before, Robb and Jon are 14 and Dany is 13 (Her mother was killed after the Mad King and Dany was still in the womb when the Mad King was killed)


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

It's been mentioned that Ned and the Starks came across the Direwolf mother that died after battling and killing the Stag, as in the Starks vs. the Baratheons.

We also have Tywin Lannister skinning and butchering a (Baratheon) stag in his tent while he was dressing down Jamie, weirdly cleaning up and them going back into it for more blood. 

Not much subtlety there.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

netringer said:


> We also have Tywin Lannister skinning and butchering a (Baratheon) stag in his tent while he was dressing down Jamie, weirdly cleaning up and them going back into it for more blood.
> 
> Not much subtlety there.


In the books this scene didn't happen to Tywin and Jaime. It was two other characters. It was a great scene, so they modified it to work on the show.

I'll put the other two characters in spoilers, but it in no way spoils anything:



Spoiler



In the book the butchering scene was with Sam and his dad. His dad was butchering something and explaining to Sam how disappointed he was in him. If Sam didn't leave and go to The Wall his dad was going to butcher him next.



tk


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