# TiVo Won't RMA Replace an HD -- RANT



## MJ-bos (Jul 13, 2002)

Sorry to  rant, but I need to get this off my chest and maybe get some input from folks out there about what to do next. 

After 2.5 years, the drive in my TiVo HD (#2) starts to emit the click of death... then goes into reset loops. 

I replaced the drive with another (as I have done dozens of times, loading a factory image from MFSTools) and it only boots 1/2 way and then goes into a reset loop. Replaced with fresh new never-used drive, sporadic resets, sometimes even all the way up to guided setup, then reset loop.

So definitely not the drive. Fabulous... this is the 2nd time in a month I have to RMA replace an out of warranty TiVo HD (hdmi port broke last month on HD#1) ... so I call TiVo... 

TiVo Rep: "You voided your warranty by opening it" ... 

Me: "um, no, it's well past warranty, 2.5 years old, but it does have lifetime service on it, can we do a swap just like we did last month on my Kitchen unit?"

TiVo Rep: "No.. you voided the warranty. We can't do anything" 

I got the exact same thing from the supervisor, except that she recommended I "take it to a mechanic for repair." 

 Un-freaking-believable. I reminded her that this is a proprietary mobo and "joe's computer repair" likely can't do much to replace it. She said, basically, "so sad, sorry."

I've been with TiVo since 2001 ... 7 total units, 3 active and 4 retired. I just added it all up... over $2,000 in service fees and $2,200 in hardware in those 11 years.

I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow. How far from SFO is the TiVo office?? I may bring the damn thing with me and make a fuss in the lobby. I was hoping to pay them $79 (+ advance ship deposit) and have the replaced unit waiting when I got home. Now I'm going to be seething about this for days and looking into every other alternative now. 

Verizon FIOS, you may just be getting a new customer thanks to how TiVo just handled me. 

Grrrrrrr.

mj


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## tivohaydon (Mar 24, 2001)

So, out of curiosity - did you tell them you replaced the drive yourself or did they know by looking at your account?


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## MJ-bos (Jul 13, 2002)

They looked it up - it was identified on the account that a new drive was added - but I also think I mentioned trying a new drive to the 1st rep (doh! idiot!)

I wasn't all that worried because it was out of warranty, I didn't think this was going to be a deal-ender.

SO... word to the wise, I guess. The arrogant 2nd level rep did say that they will always "look into" an account to see if drives have been changed, but this has never been the case in my 11 years as a customer.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

MJ-bos said:


> Sorry to  rant, but I need to get this off my chest and maybe get some input from folks out there about what to do next.
> 
> After 2.5 years, the drive in my TiVo HD (#2) starts to emit the click of death... then goes into reset loops.
> 
> ...


You might have a bad power supply or cable card. You might need to remove the cable card to run guided setup and then install the cable card afterwards.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

MJ-bos said:


> Sorry to  rant, but I need to get this off my chest and maybe get some input from folks out there about what to do next. <snip>


How frustrating. What is the exact drive brand and model (from the drive label) you used as a replacement?


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

MJ-bos said:


> I was hoping to pay them $79 (+ advance ship deposit) and have the replaced unit waiting when I got home. Now I'm going to be seething about this for days and looking into every other alternative now.


Here's an eBay link for a NIB TiVoHD for $75 plus $10 shipping:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-TiVo-TCD652...1db5d2#ht_5331wt_1185&clk_rvr_id=249227905003

Close enough to $79 for you?


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

pdhenry said:


> Here's an eBay link for a NIB TiVoHD for $75 plus $10 shipping:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/New-TiVo-TCD652...1db5d2#ht_5331wt_1185&clk_rvr_id=249227905003
> 
> Close enough to $79 for you?


Although attractive, I'm pretty sure the OP has a lifetime sub on his THD. Not sure where the $79 figure came from. AFAIK everyone's that's exchanged a TiVo out of warranty paid $149.


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## MJ-bos (Jul 13, 2002)

Yup... lifetime service on this box, so want to keep it- It's only 2.5 years old.

Bad drive #1 was a WD7500 green, #2 was same. #3 is a brand new Seagate 250. I'm going to try the no cable card trick and see what happens.

Thanks guys, mj


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## MJ-bos (Jul 13, 2002)

@shwru980r -- I did take out the cable card and rebooted once before, but I didn't leave it out when I did the guided set-up... 

I took your advice and did the full guided set-up w/o the card installed... bingo. It worked, no reset in over 2 hours.

I'll let it run overnight but so far, so good. 

TiVo community to the rescue. 

Cheers, mj


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

MJ-bos said:


> ...they will always "look into" an account to see if drives have been changed, but this has never been the case in my 11 years as a customer.


Interesting & concerning for those of us who've upgraded drives...


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## Worf (Sep 15, 2000)

Not really. It's been well known since the series 1 that TiVo can tell when a TiVo's been upgraded.

Heck, there used to be an old set of guidelines to avoid being a "moron" that would cause TiVo to clamp down.

And they especially know when someone downloads a software update twice (a case when a drive's been restored or somesuch).

Perhaps the best bet is to ask nicely if you can buy a new TiVo direct from them and transfer lifetime to it. It'll cost more than an RMA (but you're already looking at $150 + $200 transfer fee anyhow), so it's worth a shot.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

It's true that within minutes TiVo can tell if a drive has been changed by viewing their logs IF it's a size other than what was originally installed in the unit. First level (front line) CSR's do not have access to those logs and have no way of knowing. FWIW the original Series1's did have a security sticker on the case...but even that could be removed and replaced if one were careful enough.

As Worf points out, it's well known by TiVo that "enthusiasts" have been modding TiVo's for a decade now. TiVo employees frequent this forum and without addressing it directly have acknowledged it many times over the years. TiVo has always turned a blind eye to the situation. If warranty service is required and TiVo is returned with the original drive intact and no other evidence of foul play, end of story. I've been in that exact situation twice.

AFAIK in the last eight years or so there have been two recorded cases (as reported on the TCF) of TiVo refusing warranty service due to an upgrade or other modification requiring the unit to be opened by the owner. On both occasions the owners told the CSR that they had done so.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

This actually makes some sense. Tivo is going to repair your unit and use it as an "exchange" unit for another customer. No reason for tivo to have to take the time to examine the MB in order to determine if it was scratched or otherwise damaged by the customer. Return a computer MB under warranty and it's examined under a magnifying glass (figure of speech I'm sure it's some kind of digital camera) for any signs of physical damage.

I wouldn't be happy if the exchange unit I received had been "worked' on by a previous customer.

It would be nice if tivo would repair your actual unit. Customers wouldn't be happy with the delay or with a repair price that's almost as much as just purchasing a refurbished unit. Easier for tivo to just say no.


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

lew said:


> I wouldn't be happy if the exchange unit I received had been "worked' on by a previous customer.


A refurbished device is used. Supposedly gone over by the manufacture.

I bought one on the Woot deal. Had much trouble getting it to boot up. With in a week or so (can't remember exactly how long) it was dead. On the bottom the device I noticed 2 of the white plastic clips were broken.

I assume Tivo was the one doing the refurbishing but don't really know. If they are they did a horrible job and I am guessing it is hit or miss with their refurbished units. Doesn't seem like they carefully checked over the one I got.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

jcondon said:


> A refurbished device is used. Supposedly gone over by the manufacture.


It can also be a customer return that was never actually put into service. Once the box has been opened, it can no longer be sold as new. This is true with any consumer electronics device.


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## takeshi (Jul 22, 2010)

lew said:


> This actually makes some sense. Tivo is going to repair your unit and use it as an "exchange" unit for another customer. No reason for tivo to have to take the time to examine the MB in order to determine if it was scratched or otherwise damaged by the customer. Return a computer MB under warranty and it's examined under a magnifying glass (figure of speech I'm sure it's some kind of digital camera) for any signs of physical damage.


Doesn't make sense to me. The entire returned product should be reviewed as a part of the refurb process.



lew said:


> I wouldn't be happy if the exchange unit I received had been "worked' on by a previous customer.


Why would it matter if it works? If it doesn't work then, again, that should be addressed during the refurb process.


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

Good to know Rich, thanks!


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## jcondon (Jul 9, 2003)

mr.unnatural said:


> It can also be a customer return that was never actually put into service. Once the box has been opened, it can no longer be sold as new. This is true with any consumer electronics device.


Yup that's true. Neither the Refurb I bought off Woot nor the replacement Tivo sent for it were new though.


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## sieglinde (Aug 11, 2002)

My Series 2 had a replaced disc drive and it acted funny so I replaced the power supply. Check Weaknees trouble shooting page.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

P42 said:


> Interesting & concerning for those of us who've upgraded drives...


Nothing new. They did the same thing to me back in 2007 when the TiVoHD came out. On a brand new box they would not look at an issue because they saw where I had replaced the drive. So I put the original drive back in and exchanged it for another one at Circuit City.

Edit: I did not tell the CSR the drive was replaced. They told me they could see that it was replaced. But my issue was also a software issue. they would not look into the issue since my box had the hard drive replaced. So I had to exchange the box for a new one just to get them to look into the issue where a stereo signal from an analog channel came out as a mono signal on both channels. i have no idea if they ever fixed the issue since a few weeks later i got FiOS and have not looked at any analog channels since.


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## lew (Mar 12, 2002)

Tivo tells customers not to even open the case. Tivo says there aren't any user serviceable items.

There is absolutely no reason for tivo to take the time to examine the unit for accidental damage caused by a customer dropping a tool into the unit or otherwise physically damaging the unit.

We have a choice. We can leave the unit alone and let tivo handle warranty, and out of warranty, repairs. Use the WD external drive if we want more space. Or we can upgrade the hard drive and assume responsibility for all repairs, in and out of warranty.

You don't get it both ways. Do a search. Dozens of posters suggest putting the factory drive back in your tivo if you need warranty service (or out of warranty repair) Evidently tivo is now checking the logs.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

lew said:


> Evidently tivo is now checking the logs.


That may be the case, but over the years TiVo front-line CSR's have never had access to the logs (and have specifically said so when asked)...it's only when second-tier tech support gets involved that logs may or may not come into play.

Generally after going through their troubleshooting scripts the CSR is empowered to either set up an exchange or pass it to the next level of support.

Quite frankly I would be very surprised if the normal CSR's have been given access to any logs. Most are pretty capable, but there are hundreds of stories about users (particularly like those here) having more knowledge about the technical aspects of TiVo than a typical TiVo CSR. At their pay grade I can't imagine TiVo taking the time or spending the money to offer the training required to get them to any sort of technical level that would include enough background or expertise to read TiVo logs.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

richsadams said:


> That may be the case, but over the years TiVo front-line CSR's have never had access to the logs (and have specifically said so when asked)...


That's exactly what they want you to believe. 

I wouldn't be surprsed if the CSR could simply type in the service number, then access the System Information.
They look at the number of hours that can be recorded and instantly know if the HD has been upgraded/replaced (if the size is larger).


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

steve614 said:


> That's exactly what they want you to believe.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprsed if the CSR could simply type in the service number, then access the System Information.
> They look at the number of hours that can be recorded and instantly know if the HD has been upgraded/replaced (if the size is larger).


Anything is possible, but based on conversations I've had with TiVo CSR's and those posted by others the typical level of expertise is limited to their troubleshooting scripts and even those they only know how to read and not what they actually do. Anything greater than a "yes/no tree" would seem to be above their pay grade. Nothing is ever as specific as knowing the details about the actual customer's TiVo, only the model. If it comes to discussions about the actual TiVo in question it's bumped up the line to second-level tech support. Just sayin'.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

mr.unnatural said:


> It can also be a customer return that was never actually put into service. Once the box has been opened, it can no longer be sold as new. This is true with any consumer electronics device.


True, but TiVo changes the TSN on all refurbished units. Since the chip is surface soldered, they would have to examine and test the mobo before it goes out, wouldn't they?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

MJ-bos said:


> Un-freaking-believable.


What's un-freaking-believable is that you (and so many others) feel entitled to anything at all considering that the units warranty has expired. A goodwill replacement is just that, goodwill, it's not an entitlement.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> What's un-freaking-believable is that you (and so many others) feel entitled to anything at all considering that the units warranty has expired. A goodwill replacement is just that, goodwill, it's not an entitlement.


True enough and agreed. However it's not like they're doing it for free. Considering you can buy a brand new Premiere for <$100 and TiVo's exchange fee is $150 I don't think that they are losing money on the transaction...not to mention the fact that they're often able to retain a customer by doing so.

Now granted the retail price of a Premiere is probably somewhat subsidized. However again, I would guess that the cost for TiVo to bench test a THD, fix any issues, pack it and ship it is likely covered by the $150 charge.

So yes, TiVo is certainly under no obligation to do anything outside of their warranty, but IMO it's also certainly in their best interest to keep their customers happy.

That said, I don't blame them one bit for balking at replacing a unit that's been tampered with...there's no way of knowing what it would take to put it back in service. I'm just glad that if a TiVo is returned intact that they (generally) take care of their customers.

I guess the lesson continues to be that if you're having problems with your upgraded TiVo, reinstall the original hard drive to see if that fixes it. If not, leave the OEM drive in when you call for help, don't mention the upgrade, be grateful if they take care of things but don't be shocked if they don't.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

It's most definitely subsidized, especially when you consider that you're locked into a 1-year commitment at an outrageous monthly cost. You're basically financing the Premiere with monthly payments.

This entire thread is exactly why I never deal with Tivo for warranty issues. I usually upgrade my Tivos as soon as I get them, understanding that I've chosen to void the warranty. I'll generally operate them for at least a week before performing any surgery just to make sure it's a stable, working unit. Once I perform the upgrade, I have no delusions or expectations from Tivo to repair or fix it if it breaks. I assume all responsibility for it once I've voided the warranty. Some people just don't get that they need to assume responsibility for their actions and that Tivo doesn't owe them a damn thing once the warranty either expires or gets voided by the user.

If someone expects Tivo to exchange a broken unit well past the warranty period, my first reaction would be to have them pee in a cup before I send them off for a psych evaluation.


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## Mars Rocket (Mar 24, 2000)

richsadams said:


> Now granted the retail price of a Premiere is probably somewhat subsidized. However again, I would guess that the cost for TiVo to bench test a THD, fix any issues, pack it and ship it is likely covered by the $150 charge.
> 
> So yes, TiVo is certainly under no obligation to do anything outside of their warranty, but IMO it's also certainly in their best interest to keep their customers happy.


I have two TiVo HDs with lifetime service. They have no reason at all to keep me happy, as I probably cost them $$ every month. I kept my Series One TiVo with lifetime for over 9 years before upgrading. I'm dreading the day when one of them dies, as a comparable replacement would cost me ~$500.

If I get a unit repaired does it keep its lifetime status?


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Mars Rocket said:


> I have two TiVo HDs with lifetime service. They have no reason at all to keep me happy, as I probably cost them $$ every month. I kept my Series One TiVo with lifetime for over 9 years before upgrading. I'm dreading the day when one of them dies, as a comparable replacement would cost me ~$500.
> 
> If I get a unit repaired does it keep its lifetime status?


Lifetime is tied to the box so as long as you can repair it, it's good to go. If TiVo refused to honor the warranty because they found out it was modded and you (or anyone) fixed whatever was wrong it would still have a Lifetime sub.

Nine times out of ten the hard drive is the failure point so replacing it is pretty much a no brainer for folks here.

Depending on the plan a LT sub is still profitable for TiVo in most cases as the general public isn't likely to fix their TiVo when it quits after three or four years (in the case of hi-def models when the HDD fails). They may exchange it for another $150...so for TiVo it's likely still in positive territory

A LT sub doesn't mean a LT warranty...the warranty is the same as a "normal" box. But you knew that.


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## P42 (Jan 7, 2003)

They replaced his kitchen Tivo the previous month, probably as a gesture of good will etc, he doesn't mention if the replaced it with a like unit or if he got a newer model. The OP clearly took from that that Tivo would replace his other Tivo whenever it "failed". 

Personally, I did buy the 3yr extended warranty, $40, on my upgraded Lifetime Tivo $100+$400, and should it, other than for a drive ($70 user replaceable part), fail I do hope Tivo will replace the hardware. But I can understand their stance of "Nope, you opened it, it is you're problem now".


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> What's un-freaking-believable is that you (and so many others) feel entitled to anything at all considering that the units warranty has expired. A goodwill replacement is just that, goodwill, it's not an entitlement.


I would usually agree just about fully with you, but this situation is a bit closer to a gray area than most of the whiners we see in this forum. First of all, the OP is not expecting them to do something for free, nor is a request for repair service on a damaged unit for a fee an unreasonable one. He has also had units repaired previously under virtually identical circumstanmces, which does set up some expectations, albeit no outright entitlement.

If he had called them and said, "I accidentally dropped my TiVo at the top of the stairs, and now it no longer works" would they have offered to repair the unit for the standard fee? If so, then nothing he may have inadvertently done during an upgrade would have created any greater repair burden than bouncing the unit down the stairs. The only difference is a matter of policy based upon the customer's intent, and it is a reasonable argument that TiVo would not be incurring any greater cost for fixing a flubbed upgrade than they would if an elephant sat on it. OTOH, TiVo is certainly within their rights to refuse to repair such a unit - or any unit not in warranty, for that matter. It's also not an unreasonable position to hold. Whether it is wiser for them to refuse or not is another question, but as I say, this is a bit more of a gray area than your average, "I think TiVo should spend twice as much on me as a customer than they make on the unit 'cause I'm so special" post we get around here.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

MJ-bos said:


> TiVo community to the rescue.


Yeah, folks here are good like that.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

P42 said:


> Personally, I did buy the 3yr extended warranty, $40, on my upgraded Lifetime Tivo $100+$400, and should it, other than for a drive ($70 user replaceable part), fail I do hope Tivo will replace the hardware. But I can understand their stance of "Nope, you opened it, it is you're problem now".


I usually avoid extended warranties like the plague but I did the same thing, purchased the TiVo 3yr. warranty on our Lifetime Premiere XL. $39 or $40 seemed reasonable particularly on a product that I ordered before it was ever released. So far so good, knock on wood (touching head). If the day comes that I have to exchange it for some reason I'll put the original drive back in. If they take care of it fine, if not...not a huge loss as I'll probably be able to get it back up and running one way or another.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

The point is that the OP, just like so many others, is entitled to absolutely nothing.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> The point is that the OP, just like so many others, is entitled to absolutely nothing.


And my point was his post was more about expectations based on past history than a sense of entitlement. Most of the people who whine on and on don't have a leg upon which to stand. His post was considerably more reasonable than theirs, in my estimation.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

richsadams said:


> I usually avoid extended warranties like the plague


I can just picture you, setting fire to the entire house at the first hint of an extended warranty sitting on the table...


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> I can just picture you, setting fire to the entire house at the first hint of an extended warranty sitting on the table...


Makes me break out in hives!


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The problem was a bug in the Tivo software that prevented the Tivo from completing guided setup properly while the cable card was installed. The OP didn't even need out of warranty service from Tivo. Does voiding the warranty mean that you're not entitled to any help from customer support?


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> Does voiding the warranty mean that you're not entitled to any help from customer support?


Pretty much, but it really depends on the luck of the draw. Again however, their knowing that the box has been opened more often than not depends on what they are told and/or the extent of the problem.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

shwru980r said:


> The problem was a bug in the Tivo software that prevented the Tivo from completing guided setup properly while the cable card was installed. The OP didn't even need out of warranty service from Tivo. Does voiding the warranty mean that you're not entitled to any help from customer support?


Absolutely, and in this respect the party line is even more reasonable. Not replacing hardware damaged by the user for a fee is perhaps not as user-friendly as one might like, but not offering free tech support to someone who deliberately made changes of an indeterminate sort to the device is more than reasonable. It is all but insane to try to troubleshoot someone's botched self upgrade, especially for free. It's certainly not economically responsible. That is the risk one takes when one opens a box whose warranty is voided by such actions. It is a risk I am not in the very least hesitant to take, but that is another matter.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

shwru980r said:


> The problem was a bug in the Tivo software that prevented the Tivo from completing guided setup properly while the cable card was installed. The OP didn't even need out of warranty service from Tivo. Does voiding the warranty mean that you're not entitled to any help from customer support?


Yes. At least this is what I was told. They told me the reason is, with non approved parts, they cannot expect to guarantee how it will work. So I had to exchange mine at the store, just so they would look at the software issue they were having. The problem had nothing to do with a hard drive, but this is what I was told. I understand it. But also at the time I was frustrated since the upper tier support could not even understand that sending a mono signal over the FL/FR was not stereo.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Just to play devil's advocate, it's also perfectly reasonable for Dell to void my warranty if I ever open my PC up and replace my hard drive. After all, I could have caused some damage to the motherboard by dropping a screwdriver or something inside the case. 

Really, isn't Tivo most concerned about opening the case because the power supply is unshielded and therefore dangerous? Do you really think that in typical circumstances replacing a hard drive should cause a problem with the CableCard?

Now, I'm not saying Tivo should cover this at all. I think most of us here live under "don't ask, don't tell". Once you tell them you opened it up, I think you've got to live with that d'oh.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I actually think the fact that TiVo has been willing to replace out of warranty lifetime TiVos for $150 is pretty amazing. This may be a move to stop or reduce doing that (assuming it becomes a trend). 

Thanks,


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

lrhorer said:


> Absolutely, and in this respect the party line is even more reasonable. Not replacing hardware damaged by the user for a fee is perhaps not as user-friendly as one might like, but not offering free tech support to someone who deliberately made changes of an indeterminate sort to the device is more than reasonable. It is all but insane to try to troubleshoot someone's botched self upgrade, especially for free. It's certainly not economically responsible. That is the risk one takes when one opens a box whose warranty is voided by such actions. It is a risk I am not in the very least hesitant to take, but that is another matter.


This. :up:


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## TheLongshot (Jun 16, 2008)

atmuscarella said:


> I actually think the fact that TiVo has been willing to replace out of warranty lifetime TiVos for $150 is pretty amazing. This may be a move to stop or reduce doing that (assuming it becomes a trend).


Probably not. I know when I did it last year (after initially replacing the HD and the power supply) that they let me send it back. Granted, I had contacted Tivo first before I did those things...

But I think what Rich said is best: if you call Tivo, make sure you have the original drive in the machine.


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## lafos (Nov 8, 2004)

Mars Rocket said:


> I have two TiVo HDs with lifetime service. They have no reason at all to keep me happy, as I probably cost them $$ every month. I kept my Series One TiVo with lifetime for over 9 years before upgrading. I'm dreading the day when one of them dies, as a comparable replacement would cost me ~$500.
> 
> If I get a unit repaired does it keep its lifetime status?


Since TiVo runs ads on the boxes, I would expect that the ad fees are tied to the size of the customer base. One TiVo may not make a difference, but in setting policies to maintain the base, it makes sense. Most of my TiVos are on LT, and the other two are grandfathered at $6.95/mo, but they don't treat me as a paria when I call a CSR.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

TiVo has absolutely no obligation to offer out of warranty service to anyone. They could tell you to take a hike even if you'd never cracked the case. They happen to offer this option as a convenience to their customers, but it's well within their rights to apply any arbitrary restrictions they want, even if it makes no logical sense.

To be honest I'm surprised they offer this option at all. Their bread & butter is the service. By allowing out of warranty repair they're allowing people to extend the life of a lifetime subscription, which makes them $0. 

Dan


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

All situations as described by the OP have three stories, the OP story, TiVos story, and the truth. At best we know only what the OP has told us, he may or may not have left something out, the CSR may or may not fully understand what the OP said. We on this form can only speculate as to what going on but in this case it is hard for us to give him information help him now, the best advice is, if calling TiVo with an upgraded TiVo put the original drive back in, and make at least a few forced calls home, let the drive update to the newest software.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo has absolutely no obligation to offer out of warranty service to anyone. They could tell you to take a hike even if you'd never cracked the case. They happen to offer this option as a convenience to their customers, but it's well within their rights to apply any arbitrary restrictions they want, even if it makes no logical sense.
> 
> To be honest I'm surprised they offer this option at all. Their bread & butter is the service. By allowing out of warranty repair they're allowing people to extend the life of a lifetime subscription, which makes them $0.
> 
> Dan


IIRC they started doing it after they significantly downgraded the warrenty. While perfectly legal to sell lifetime service on a box with only a 365 day warrenty its probably a PR nightmare to tell your customers with lifetime to go scratch on the 366th day.

I could be dreaming but I think the original warrenty was 1 year labor and 3 years parts. So if the lifetime box died on the 366th day or anytime in the second or third year you paid a smaller fee (maybe the cop's 79 bucks?) and they swapped it.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo has absolutely no obligation to offer out of warranty service to anyone. They could tell you to take a hike even if you'd never cracked the case. They happen to offer this option as a convenience to their customers, but it's well within their rights to apply any arbitrary restrictions they want, even if it makes no logical sense.


Agreed.



Dan203 said:


> By allowing out of warranty repair they're allowing people to extend the life of a lifetime subscription <snip>


Hence the term "lifetime".


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## MJ-bos (Jul 13, 2002)

Just got back from vacation... interesting comments.

1. The "remove cablecard" trick didn't work afterall ... reset loop started after my last post just before heading out for vacation. 

2. I Definitely didn't go into this feeling entitled to anything ... my position was pretty simple, it died in 2.5 years, I paid big $ for "lifetime" service, please help me out to extend the life to about 48-60 months. At $79 they probably break even on the HW swap, at $129-150 they make a profit, but really, it's about maintaining a customer... see next bullet. 

3. I have 3 active TiVos, 2 on monthly/yearly/MSO service and this one "lifetime"... forget the other 4 "past" ones - that's revenue of somewhere > $4,000 over 10 years already recognized - but helping me on this issue would be a goodwill gesture to help ensure that I remain a customer and keep upgrading boxes every 3-5 years.

4. My bigger issue was not the $ ... it was the rude CSR and her manager. TiVo executive relations came through and resolved this whole thing much better than I expected. 

Moral of the story - something I knew but was just stupid about when describing my issue to the 1st CSR rep - if you have replaced drives and encounter a problem that isn't with your drive - go back to the factory disk and don't volunteer that you used to have a bigger drive.


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

MJ-bos said:


> Moral of the story - something I knew but was just stupid about when describing my issue to the 1st CSR rep - if you have replaced drives and encounter a problem that isn't with your drive - go back to the factory disk and don't volunteer that you used to have a bigger drive.


This. :up:

BTW, glad to hear things worked out!


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

richsadams said:


> Hence the term "lifetime".


TiVo made a clarification to their TOS a loooong time ago to make sure people understood "lifetime" meant the life of the unit, not the life of the owner.

Dan


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> TiVo made a clarification to their TOS a loooong time ago to make sure people understood "lifetime" meant the life of the unit, not the life of the owner.
> 
> Dan


But then I knew that.  So for as long as someone can keep the unit up and running...the lifetime sub will be intact.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

Exactly! And TiVo has no obligate to help you keep it running, even for a fee.

Dan


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

Dan203 said:


> Exactly! And TiVo has no obligate to help you keep it running, even for a fee.
> 
> Dan


If it's out of warranty, exactly.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

Dan203 said:


> Exactly! And TiVo has no obligate to help you keep it running, even for a fee.
> 
> Dan


again- legally you are absolutely on the money.

but morally and public relations wise I think they are in a bind if on the 366th day your lifetime box dies and they tell you to screw off. Hence the repairs for a fee policy that they have.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MichaelK said:


> again- legally you are absolutely on the money.
> 
> but morally and public relations wise I think they are in a bind if on the 366th day your lifetime box dies and they tell you to screw off. Hence the repairs for a fee policy that they have.


well they may be morally on the hook for being mean and telling you to screw off,
but if they politely tell you that the box is out of warranty and not in compliance with the terms and thus they will n0ot repair it, I am not seeing the moral aspect here.
Public relations sure, but there is no moral contract when buying a DVR from a corporation


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

MJ-bos said:


> 4. My bigger issue was not the $ ... it was the rude CSR and her manager. TiVo executive relations came through and resolved this whole thing much better than I expected.


yep. executive relations is where they get the idea of Public relations and keeping customers. What did they do for you?


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> well they may be morally on the hook for being mean and telling you to screw off,
> but if they politely tell you that the box is out of warranty and not in compliance with the terms and thus they will n0ot repair it, I am not seeing the moral aspect here.
> Public relations sure, but there is no moral contract when buying a DVR from a corporation


i guess moral is a bad choice of words. Mean is probably more accurate.

maybe that's not even the right word.

People get angry enough when something dies shortly after the warranty expires on anything. Never-mind when you have prepaid for years of service -which is how many people would view lifetime service.

In the end it comes down a PR problem- so that's probably the bottom line.


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## MJ-bos (Jul 13, 2002)

...and 2 weeks into the replacement box, reset loops again (grr). This time I did _not_ replace the drive, I decided to leave everything alone and go with an external MyDVR which should be showing up this week. 

The refurb box came with version 9.something software, I'm guessing this is the first time it's updating ... as it dies when I try to force a connection (it gets to loading around 54% then reboot).

Back on the phone to Exec. Relations now. 

My spouse is ready to kill me - 4 times entering season passes in a month. 

mj


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

MJ-bos said:


> ...and 2 weeks into the replacement box, reset loops again (grr). This time I did _not_ replace the drive, I decided to leave everything alone and go with an external MyDVR which should be showing up this week.
> 
> The refurb box came with version 9.something software, I'm guessing this is the first time it's updating ... as it dies when I try to force a connection (it gets to loading around 54% then reboot).
> 
> ...


Something unusual is going on there. It will be interesting to learn what TiVo has to say but my WAG is there are "outside forces" of some sort.

FWIW if you set up your SP's on TiVo's website Season Pass Manager, I believe it will repopulate them when you get a new box (I know it does when you replace a hard drive).

https://www3.tivo.com/apps/login/show.do


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm wondering if the cablecard is simply going bad- now that installs should not require a truck roll that may be something to investigate.

Otherwise, there could be a power issue going on- flaky outlet or similar, that can happen on a branch circuit. "screws fall out, the world is an imperfect place".

Season passes should work online, but wishlists will not.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

MJ-bos said:


> 2. I Definitely didn't go into this feeling entitled to anything


LOL!!!


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## MJ-bos (Jul 13, 2002)

@Jrtoo & @richsadams -- forgot to mention I think - the 1st thing I did when #1 RMA started acting flaky was to get a new cablecard from my cableco - it didn't help. I'm also running the TIVo behind a battery, so power is clean and constant. 

The new RMA arrived (#2) - also running 9.0something software. I let it do it's auto connect, it upgraded to 11.something. And it hung up (frozen red now playing screen). After I peeled myself off the ceiling and reset the box, all has been OK for a few days now. 

Exec. relations has been great, but I have to wonder if letting these go out with old s/w isn't causing more problems than it's worth? 

Hopefully this is now the end of this saga for a year or two... then I can get busy with the Q 

-mj


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## richsadams (Jan 4, 2003)

MJ-bos said:


> @Jrtoo & @richsadams -- forgot to mention I think - the 1st thing I did when #1 RMA started acting flaky was to get a new cablecard from my cableco - it didn't help. I'm also running the TIVo behind a battery, so power is clean and constant.
> 
> The new RMA arrived (#2) - also running 9.0something software. I let it do it's auto connect, it upgraded to 11.something. And it hung up (frozen red now playing screen). After I peeled myself off the ceiling and reset the box, all has been OK for a few days now.
> 
> ...


Good to know things are working now. (I know that WTF? sinking feeling when TiVo doesn't act like it should.) FWIW it isn't _real_ common but not completely unheard of for TiVo to hang at the initial boot. Sometimes it does take two or three tries for it to behave properly. So I suspect it will be fine going forward.

Thanks for keeping us posted and enjoy!


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