# Poll: Vote if I should take Tivo to Small Claims Court



## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

I'll try to make this a short story. I was in the market to purchase a used series 2 lifetime membership tivo. I found a seller that had just the box and power cord (no remote, no problem I've got spares) and with lifetime for sale. This isn't my first lifetime purchase like this, so since there's no way to see what the box reports as the service status, I chatted with the seller who had said 2 tivo service reps told him it had lifetime membership, 1 told him it did not. Wanting to get the final word myself, I got the serial number from him and called Tivo to get the definitive answer from them. I spoke with a male represenative 10/27 3:54pm central time for 6 mins, and he confirmed that it did have lifetime membership, and if I bought the box to call back and to create an account and transfer the box to my name. I confirmed with him again before I hung up.

Fast forward 5 days when I get the box in the mail, hook it up, and the tivo box does not report lifetime service on it. I immediately call Tivo and talk to the first line of defense, explain my problem, the lady looks it up and now says this Tivo does not have lifetime service. Fast forward 30mins and I'm finally talking to the second line of defense/supervisor. She reiterates that the box does not have lifetime. She basically tells me I'm SOL. I say this is not acceptable, etc. I tell her I have an old series1 box with lifetime and the least she could do is possibly transfer that lifetime to the series 2 box. They were closing for the night, and she said she would also look for my recorded call from 10/27.

I speak to her a few days later; (a) She can't find my recorded call even though I have gave her the exact time, date and duration and they can search by only male customer service representatives. (b) I ask how can such a mistake happen by 3 tivo representatives. She says it's complicated but the person's account showed a lifetime service and only one box, but the lifetime was not for my serial number box on that person's account. I couldn't understand her explanation. But it seemed like she knew reps had reported this box as having lifetime on it. She said she still stood by the return to seller even though it's not the seller's mistake, it's on Tivo's word which I purchased the unit. (c) She did say she had authorization to transfer my series1 lifetime to the series2 box in question.

That's the background, so now the question. I believe in companies standing by the words of their customer representatives. Multiple Tivo representatives told the seller and myself that this box did have lifetime service. But due to Tivo's flawed system of determining service level from a particular box serial number, I'm now stuck with a series2 box without lifetime.

I am seriously considering taking Tivo to Texas Small Claims Court and asking to be awarded $299 (cost of a lifetime service for the series2 box) plus court costs. I don't know if I should have the series1 lifetime transfered now and still sue. Or if I should just transfer the series1 lifetime to the series2 and just drop it because it's not worth my time; but that's not holding Tivo accountable for their actions.

So what would you do:
1) Just transfer series1 lifetime to series2 box and forget about it.
2) Transfer series1 lifetime to series2 box to get it up and running for now, and start the process of suing them in small claims court.
3) Not transfer the series1 lifetime to the series2 box, and start the process of suing them in small claims court.

I feel like I have a lot of ammo on my side. I could get the seller to notarize a statement saying he was told it had lifetime service. I have my call records showing I called tivo on the date and time specified (Tivo would look pretty bad not being able to produce said call). They know they made the mistake on their side of reporting incorrectly that the box had lifetime service. I think I've got a pretty good case. I am going to escalate this as far up inside of Tivo; I think they would much rather just own up to their mistake rather then spend money from their side defending a small claims court suit (which I'm sure would quickly cost them more then $299 dollars).


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

Seems to me it's more trouble than it's worth going to small claims court. I say this because I have gone to small claims court before and winning doesn't mean you get the money. Getting them to actually pay is another battle.

What I don't understand is why you don't hold the seller responsible for what he sold you?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

I didn't bother to read that wall of text, but count me a "YES" vote on your poll. I just want to see it happen for the entertainment value. Lack of decent courtroom drama on TV.

EDIT: Okay, so I got bored and read the wall of text. It seems like you have several problems: 1) the main culprit here is the seller who misrepresented the item, 2) you don't have any proof of what was told to you by Tivo, making the statements hearsay, 3) by your own admission the original owner was told by 1 Tivo rep that the box did not have lifetime membership, and 4) Tivo has offered you the remedy that you asked for, transferring the lifetime from your S1 to your S2.

EDIT2: Also consider the very real possibility that you may be in possession of stolen property (no remote, seller mistaken about lifetime service, etc). Did the Tivo rep confirm that the guy who sold it to you was the owner?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Not only that, but even if his claim were valid - and that is a really big if - then absent malice it seems to me like TiVo's liability would be limited to the cost of the used TiVo. If he is dumb enough to pay $299 for a used S2...


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

Resist said:


> Seems to me it's more trouble than it's worth going to small claims court. I say this because I have gone to small claims court before and winning doesn't mean you get the money. Getting them to actually pay is another battle.
> 
> What I don't understand is why you don't hold the seller responsible for what he sold you?


Thanks for the responses. I would think it's harder to get a person with little money and assets to collect on a small claims judgment. I would think it's be easy to get a publicly traded company.

If the seller told me the tivo info screen reported lifetime and when I got it and it did not, sure I would hold him responsible. But of the three parties involved (seller, buyer/me, tivo), Tivo is the one who told both me and the seller that the box did in fact have lifetime. To me that makes them responsible for their actions and info given to their customers.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

smbaker said:


> I didn't bother to read that wall of text, but count me a "YES" vote on your poll. I just want to see it happen for the entertainment value. Lack of decent courtroom drama on TV.


If I do take them to court, I would like this to be a living thread with updates to continue to show Tivo that this is getting negative attention which they don't need. But actually reading through several threads in this sub-forums, there's already lots of people complaining about tivo service, etc; so it's not like I would be running their "perfect" image. 



smbaker said:


> EDIT: Okay, so I got bored and read the wall of text. It seems like you have several problems: 1) the main culprit here is the seller who misrepresented the item, 2) you don't have any proof of what was told to you by Tivo, making the statements hearsay, 3) by your own admission the original owner was told by 1 Tivo rep that the box did not have lifetime membership, and 4) Tivo has offered you the remedy that you asked for, transferring the lifetime from your S1 to your S2.


To answer your questions (1) See my above post about the three parties involved (seller, me and tivo) and which one misrepresented the box to begin which. (2) It would be the seller's word (one person) and my word (two people) vs Tivo. I also have phone records of the call I placed to Tivo. And the recorded phone call does exist, but that would be on Tivo to produce. I think it looks poorly on them if they can not find such evidence for a case. So they misinform their customers about service levels of boxs and they can't find recorder customer service calls; what can they get right!  And (3) Three reps said it did, one did not. The rep I talked to confirmed multiple times on the phone with me. What do I have to call 10 different times to confirm one piece of information? (4) If I did not have the other s1 lifetime to transfer I'd be SOL, so I'm the one providing the solution for Tivo's mistake. Do you like covering for other idiots actions that you work or socialize with? Don't you want those people to own up for their actions?



smbaker said:


> EDIT2: Also consider the very real possibility that you may be in possession of stolen property (no remote, seller mistaken about lifetime service, etc). Did the Tivo rep confirm that the guy who sold it to you was the owner?


Selling used Tivo's is very common on ebay and craig's list. It's not like a camera or other electronic device that can easily be sold stolen. The Tivo reps don't give out a lot of info about accounts if you are not the actual account owner which is fine. So I don't know if the guy was the original owner of the box or who's account it really is on. But when I called Tivo, they told me it had lifetime and would be a problem. I took their word on it.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

lrhorer said:


> Not only that, but even if his claim were valid - and that is a really big if - then absent malice it seems to me like TiVo's liability would be limited to the cost of the used TiVo. If he is dumb enough to pay $299 for a used S2...


Just curious, why would it be a really big if? IF Tivo could find my recorded call then it wouldn't be just my word and the seller word against them. IF the customer service reps would make quick comments inline with boxes talked about on the phone, then the notes of the rep I talked to would say he told me this box had lifetime on it. If anyone's dropping the ball or has flawed processes here, it's Tivo.

Do you know the prices what lifetime s2 dual tuner boxes go for on craig's list or ebay? Lifetime is pretty desirable, such boxes will sell anywhere from $150 to $275 depending on harddrive size, condition, etc.

In small claims court I have to sue for a dollar amount, I can sue to make Tivo put lifetime on my box which they said it had. So that's why it's $299 plus whatever other court costs I accrue. It's not like I'm greedy and want to sue them for $5,000 or anything. I want them to own up to their mistake and fix their mistake. I would cost them next to nothing to put lifetime on my box. They're not making money on it anyway, what it's going to cost them bandwidth wise for another box calling into them. It would cost them a lot more to have to settle this in small claims court.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I think you have too much time on your hands.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

Unless you live in TiVo's back yard they probably wont send anyone to represent them if you do take them to small claims court, will be a slam dunk fo you for $299, TiVo simply wont pay it and tell you if you dont like it sue them IF they tell you anything at all, which you would have to do in thier home state, unless you are a lawyer in that state you will have to retain representation costing you a lot more than the $299 you are seeking...the whole time making very sure you dont say ANYTHING against or about TiVo that isnt true (as in you can prove in a court of law true) as they might take it upon themselves to sue you for slander.

Good Luck


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## Bob_Newhart (Jul 14, 2004)

Is there any way you could talk to a rep that says it has a lifetime sub and then have him email you that in writing?


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## Brad Bishop (Sep 11, 2001)

Your issue isn't with TiVo but the seller.

Yeah, TiVo screwed up but from their point of view the seller had one or more TiVos. Some of them had lifetime and some did not. TiVo was paid by the seller for those lifetime accounts and not paid for the unit you received. Granted, they screwed up telling you.

So, regardless of what TiVo told you, the seller sold you the unit w/ Lifetime. it's up to him to either:
- give you the money to put lifetime on it
- take the unit back
- if the unit is supposed to have lifetime but doesn't then he should be gracious enough to call TiVo and dispute it as he was the one who originally paid for lifetime.

If you sue TiVo and win then:
- TiVo never was paid for lifetime on that box - they just have to take the hit which is unfair for TiVo
- the seller gets off without any damages. He basically gets the 'lifetime premium' his unit brought in without ever having paid the 'lifetime premium' to TiVo.

Your issue is with the seller, not TiVo - though, granted, TiVo was clumsy on this one.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Brad Bishop said:


> Your issue isn't with TiVo but the seller.
> 
> Yeah, TiVo screwed up but from their point of view the seller had one or more TiVos. Some of them had lifetime and some did not. TiVo was paid by the seller for those lifetime accounts and not paid for the unit you received. Granted, they screwed up telling you.
> 
> ...


There is a Lifetime Scam that the seller could pull that has nothing to do with TiVo, 99.9% chance that the seller scammed you not TiVo and TiVo was not even clumsy. Until a given Lifetime TiVo is in your own TiVo account you don't have a Lifetime TiVo for sure, that why even a screen shot by the seller does not mean you will end up with a Lifetime TiVo. You must purchase a Lifetime TiVo from a place like E-Bay (or any other place) where you have recourse if your promised Lifetime Service does not come to you with the TiVo. There have been reports in this Forum of people using a Lifetime TiVo (purchased from a 3rd pty) for years only to find one day that the Lifetime is now gone. They, in almost all cases, never took the time to call TiVo and xfer the box to their own TiVo account to see if, in their TiVo account, the TiVo did show as having Lifetime Service.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

billy_goat said:


> If the seller told me the tivo info screen reported lifetime and when I got it and it did not, sure I would hold him responsible.


So you knew in about 15 minutes of getting the TiVo that it did not have lifetime but you are ready to completely gloss over the fact that the seller could not directly determine or indeed already know on his own the service level of the TiVo in his possesion. Not having a remote is a silly excuse and frankly would have raised a flag and had me move on to a different seller.

Small claims court would laugh out loud at any claim against TiVo based on the word of a 3rd party seller and buyer. Even with a recording of your call with TiVo any competent judge would tell you to get your money back from the seller since TiVo had not sold you anything nor received any of your money.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> Just curious, why would it be a really big if? IF Tivo could find my recorded call then it wouldn't be just my word and the seller word against them.


I rather fail to follow your point, here, but more importantly, unless you are claiming the seller is going to go to court with you, then it isn't 2 against 1. As someone pointed out, it will be 1 against 0, but you have no evidence TiVo did anything wrong. More importantly, you didn't pay anything to TiVo. In order to show culpability, you have to show both damages and intent or negligence on the part of the defendant. You have no damages, at all. You paid for and received a TiVo. If the unit does not meet your expectations, then it is up to the seller to refund your money, not TiVo. If the unit's abilities were misrepresented, then you have a potential case against the seller for the cost of the TiVo, not the money it might have saved you if it had performed as advertised. Even that, however, would be a hard case to make. He can claim he was absent malice because he thought the unit would fill your needs, and since you retain possession of the unit, he owes you nothing. If he is a stand up sort of guy, then he might agree to take the TiVo back and refund your money. If not, then you own a TiVo you don't really want. Although they don't in fact owe you anything, at the very most one might argue is TiVo owes you the difference in cost between a used unsubbed TiVo and a used lifetime TiVo.



billy_goat said:


> IF the customer service reps would make quick comments inline with boxes talked about on the phone, then the notes of the rep I talked to would say he told me this box had lifetime on it. If anyone's dropping the ball or has flawed processes here, it's Tivo.


'Irrelevant. It's highly questionable you have any damages, at all, but even if you do, they are the result of a transaction between you and the seller, not TiVo. Talking to someone and acting on their advice does not constitute a contract unless you hired them to give you that advice. TiVo gave you something for free that was worth nothing, so you're not out anything from that transaction, either.



billy_goat said:


> Do you know the prices what lifetime s2 dual tuner boxes go for on craig's list or ebay? Lifetime is pretty desirable, such boxes will sell anywhere from $150 to $275 depending on harddrive size, condition, etc.


You didn't tell us what you paid for the unit, but no matter what, you seem to think TiVo owes you the effective $299 profit you would have made had the box been what you thought it was. They do not. What's more, the full price of the lifetime unit is not based strictly on the value of the service. The unit also has value. Fully functional and equipped S1 or S2 TiVos with lifetime subs can be had on e-bay for around $100. DT units sell for more, but that is mainly because of the added value of the second tuner, not the lifetime sub. Since I take it you received a DT TiVo, then you also received additional value for your money.



billy_goat said:


> In small claims court I have to sue for a dollar amount, I can sue to make Tivo put lifetime on my box which they said it had. So that's why it's $299 plus whatever other court costs I accrue.


As someone else pointed out, no one has paid for lifetime service on that unit, so why should TiVo be required to give up that revenue? YOur beef, such as it is, is entirely with the seller.



billy_goat said:


> It's not like I'm greedy and want to sue them for $5,000 or anything.


The term "greedy" is an emotionally laden term, and I don't mean to be offensive, but you are indeed being avaricious. You are trying to obtain a valuable commodity for less than retail price. The attempt is being made in a perfectly legal and ethical manner, but you are trying to get what you want for less money than purchasing retail. Having failed to do so does not mean anyone, least of all TiVo, owes you either the money you would have saved or the services which would have accrued from spending the money in the first place.



billy_goat said:


> I want them to own up to their mistake and fix their mistake.


They can do that by saying, "Oops! 'Sorry". They have no legal, ethical, or moral obligation beyond that, your frustration notwithstanding. They may not even owe you that, since they may not have made any mistake, at all.



billy_goat said:


> I would cost them next to nothing to put lifetime on my box.


First of all, that's probably not true. I suspect their contract with Tribune Media may be based upon the actual number of subscriptions, rather than an estimate, but even if subbing your box doesn't increase their overhead, the same is true of a brand new box. It's really fairly simple. Neither you nor anyone else paid them anything, so they owe you nothing. If the box you bought from the seller is not worth as much to you as you thought it would be, then you can speak with him to try to convince him to refund part of all of your money. If you can't, then your only reasonable recourse is to sell the box to someone else in order to recoup some of your outlay.



billy_goat said:


> They're not making money on it anyway, what it's going to cost them bandwidth wise for another box calling into them. It would cost them a lot more to have to settle this in small claims court.


And that makes it OK for you to sue them? I thought you said you weren't being greedy? As far as the suit costing them money, once again someone else has pointed out it won't cost them a cent. Unless you live in California, TiVo will simply ignore a court summons from your state. Even if you di live in California, however, your odds of winning the suit are just about zilch. They may indeed choose not to take the risk and settle out of court, but the fact is they almost surely would win, and in that case they can demand that you pay the court costs.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

The Seller took you. You bought the box from the Seller, your issue is with them. When it comes to Craigslist (especially) and Ebay, buyer beware. There is always risk associated with used equipment from unknown third parties, lower price usually means more risk. You got burned, live with it or go after the seller.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

You can't prove TiVo told you this. They will simply say you were never told that. Your word against there's.

If you had recorded the conversation or something, sure.

I would file a BBB complaint, maybe you'll get lucky and bump this up the food chain and they'll do something out of the goodness of their hearts?


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

Joe01880 said:


> Unless you live in TiVo's back yard they probably wont send anyone to represent them if you do take them to small claims court, will be a slam dunk fo you for $299, TiVo simply wont pay it and tell you if you dont like it sue them IF they tell you anything at all, which you would have to do in thier home state, unless you are a lawyer in that state you will have to retain representation costing you a lot more than the $299 you are seeking...the whole time making very sure you dont say ANYTHING against or about TiVo that isnt true (as in you can prove in a court of law true) as they might take it upon themselves to sue you for slander.
> Good Luck


Thanks, I found that to be some good advice. I agree that even if I won a small claims case, trying to collect would be another whole matter.


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## MichaelK (Jan 10, 2002)

this is laughable- clearly the seller was playing games. he/she took advantage of some sort of confusion on tivo's part. He/she even told you tivo was confused (an honest crook). he called 3 times and couldn't get a straight answer and you called once and think that last call must have been the magic call?

and last bit- perhaps the box had lifetime the day you called tivo- you bought it and told the seller to ship it. He drops it at the UPS store and then on the way home uses one of a myriad of ways to get the lifetime transferred off the box (just like you plan to transfer your lifetime over). Now what? You still going to blame tivo? For all you know that's exactly what happened.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

billy_goat said:


> Thanks, I found that to be some good advice. I agree that even if I won a small claims case, trying to collect would be another whole matter.


so if you are fired up, and have something that shows the seller intended to sell you a TiVo with lifetime and did not - why not take him to small claims. You can eventually garnish wages even to collect from the seller. You have a very strong claim against the seller if you have proof like a copy of the listing, etc..


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## knuckles (Dec 21, 2002)

I never would have bought the box until I found out why one of the TiVo reps said that it didn't show as lifetime. That was your mistake.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So you knew in about 15 minutes of getting the TiVo that it did not have lifetime but you are ready to completely gloss over the fact that the seller could not directly determine or indeed already know on his own the service level of the TiVo in his possesion. Not having a remote is a silly excuse and frankly would have raised a flag and had me move on to a different seller.


Spot on. Caveat emptor is always the rule when buying something, especially something used. I find it unlikely nearly to the point of being ludicrous that anyone would not know whether they had paid for lifetime service or received a monthly bill for umpteen years. The conveniently missing remote smacks to me of out and out fraud on the part of the seller. I am also less than convinced the OP is not out trolling. The emotionally charged phrases with which he peppers his posts combined with his doe-eyed naivete whiff just a bit of someone who might spend his time lurking under a bridge. I could be wrong, but I'm just not finding his story completely credible.



ZeoTiVo said:


> Small claims court would laugh out loud at any claim against TiVo based on the word of a 3rd party seller and buyer. Even with a recording of your call with TiVo any competent judge would tell you to get your money back from the seller since TiVo had not sold you anything nor received any of your money.


And not really even that. After all, he did evidently receive a working TiVo. It just wasn't the TiVo he was expecting. If the ad guaranteed satisfaction or represented the TiVo to have a lifetime sub, then the OP has a valid case against him, but according to what the OP has said here, the seller said he wasn't sure. Yeah, there's definitely some marine life laying around here somewhere.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

Let me clarify more about the seller. I believe the seller acquired the tivo box in a electronics lot sale. He was not the original owner of the box. He called up Tivo with the service number and they told him it had lifetime service on it. He listed it for sale this way. Through my discussions with him, I wasn't just going to take his word on the status of the box, so I got the serial number from him and called Tivo to obtain the box status myself. I mean if anyone should know the box status it should be Tivo right. After confirming multiple times with the Tivo representative I based my purchasing decision based on Tivo's response; you can never trust sellers so this is why I do my own evaluations. And I made the decision to purchase based on my leg work to call Tivo.

So with that said, let me address some of your guys comments. And I'll add I appreciate everyone's opinions, I'm not trying to be confrontational, just a good decision going on here.



Brad Bishop said:


> Your issue isn't with TiVo but the seller.
> Yeah, TiVo screwed up but from their point of view the seller had one or more TiVos. Some of them had lifetime and some did not. TiVo was paid by the seller for those lifetime accounts and not paid for the unit you received. Granted, they screwed up telling you.


My issue isn't with the seller, he never didn't lie to me. He told me 2 reps said it had lifetime, 1 did not. So I tossed out everything from him, got the serial number to get the straight answer from Tivo themselves. I don't know what kind of screwy system Tivo has in place for reporting box information, but it should be as easy as plug in box serial number, get service level of box. Apparently it's hard enough that 3 representatives got it wrong and reported this box as having lifetime. So yes I agree with you, they screwed up telling me the wrong thing. And I think them saying "opps, our bad" is an acceptable solution.



Brad Bishop said:


> If you sue TiVo and win then:
> - TiVo never was paid for lifetime on that box - they just have to take the hit which is unfair for TiVo
> Your issue is with the seller, not TiVo - though, granted, TiVo was clumsy on this one.


If Tivo was not paid lifetime on the box, then that is how it should be reported to customers when they call about said box. If Tivo is going to report a box as having lifetime service, then they need to stand behind their claims.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

knuckles said:


> I never would have bought the box until I found out why one of the TiVo reps said that it didn't show as lifetime. That was your mistake.


You don't think I tried? I got the service number from the seller, called tivo, talked to a rep, asked multiple times are you sure, are you sure. Every time he said yes. Should I call 10 reps until I get the capable one that digs deeper and finds whatever error exists in Tivo's system?

I guess asside from getting a written guarantee from the 1 rep I talked to, I was satisfied with his response. I have purchased other tivos prior to this, and Tivo has always been correct when I call up and ask about different boxes service levels. I had no reason to think this time was going to be different when I did get the confirmation from the rep.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

billy_goat said:


> Let me clarify more about the seller. I believe the seller acquired the tivo box in a electronics lot sale.
> 
> If Tivo was not paid lifetime on the box, then that is how it should be reported to customers when they call about said box. If Tivo is going to report a box as having lifetime service, then they need to stand behind their claims.


if he does a lot of selling he should be ok refunding your price, which I note you do not mention so it is likely low and unhinges your case.
Bottom line, you had no contractual agreement with TiVo and they made no promise to you at all. They did not contact you with some claim of theirs, they answered your question the best they could. Why do you throw out 3 CSR answers but the one you make is somehow the golden one?

Your recourse is the seller


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> Thanks for the responses. I would think it's harder to get a person with little money and assets to collect on a small claims judgment. I would think it's be easy to get a publicly traded company.


So rather than do the morally and ethically responsible thing, you intend to do the easier thing? So far I count three of the seven deadly sins on your plate.



billy_goat said:


> If the seller told me the tivo info screen reported lifetime and when I got it and it did not, sure I would hold him responsible. But of the three parties involved (seller, buyer/me, tivo), Tivo is the one who told both me and the seller that the box did in fact have lifetime. To me that makes them responsible for their actions and info given to their customers.


They are, right up to the limit of what you paid them for their services. Return the unit to the seller and get your money back, or else have him refund you the difference between the average cost of an unsubbed Tivo and a lifetime TiVo.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

I'm not trolling, no marine life here.

See my post above for more info about the seller. I had already written a book in my first post that I did not list out every detail of the seller. The seller is not the original owner of the box. I believe he acquired it in a bulk electronics purchase. Hence no remote, and he called Tivo up to inquire about the box. They told him it was lifetime, and he was selling it as such. I never believe sellers, so I did my own leg work, called Tivo, got the word straight from them, and purchased based on their report.



lrhorer said:


> I find it unlikely nearly to the point of being ludicrous that anyone would not know whether they had paid for lifetime service or received a monthly bill for umpteen years. The conveniently missing remote smacks to me of out and out fraud on the part of the seller..


Yes, I would agree from you if the seller was the original owner/subscriber of the box. But a lot of these series1 and series2 units have been passed down multiple times as people move on to other tivo units or get satellite.



lrhorer said:


> I am also less than convinced the OP is not out trolling. The emotionally charged phrases with which he peppers his posts combined with his doe-eyed naivete whiff just a bit of someone who might spend his time lurking under a bridge. I could be wrong, but I'm just not finding his story completely credible.


Nope, not trolling. And sure I'm emotionally charged over the situation, I feel taken by Tivo for saying one thing and then days later changing the tune of their story. I guarantee you, you would be stewing just like me if you were in my shoes.

You could call me naivete if I had just trusted the seller's representation of the box status. But I'm anything but naivete; I went right to the horse's mouth to get the status from the company itself. I guess me asking the rep three times if he was sure wasn't enough on my part.



lrhorer said:


> And not really even that. After all, he did evidently receive a working TiVo. It just wasn't the TiVo he was expecting. If the ad guaranteed satisfaction or represented the TiVo to have a lifetime sub, then the OP has a valid case against him, but according to what the OP has said here, the seller said he wasn't sure. Yeah, there's definitely some marine life laying around here somewhere.


You can go out on ebay or craig's list and find a working non-lifetime tivo for $20 bucks. In buying a used Tivo, you are paying for the lifetime subscription aspect of the box, not the fact that the box boots up and runs. Since the seller wasn't sure, I went straight to Tivo to get the definitive answer. I mean they're the ones that should know 100% right.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> You don't think I tried? I got the service number from the seller, called tivo, talked to a rep, asked multiple times are you sure, are you sure. Every time he said yes. Should I call 10 reps until I get the capable one that digs deeper and finds whatever error exists in Tivo's system?


The fact you exercised some diligence in investigating the situation in no way assigns any responsibility to TiVo for any transaction you may consider with some 3rd party. The diligence you *should* have exercised is getting a commitment from the seller to refund your money if the TiVo did not have a lifetime sub.



billy_goat said:


> I guess asside from getting a written guarantee from the 1 rep I talked to, I was satisfied with his response.


It doesn't sound to me like you even got his name or employee ID. 'Not as diligent as you would have us credit you with being, really. Here's a clue for you in the future: financial transactions imply commitments. If you spell out those commitments, it will save potential trouble. Without a financial transaction, there is also no financial commitment. You engaged in no financial transaction with TiVo. You did engage in a financial transaction with the seller.



billy_goat said:


> I have purchased other tivos prior to this, and Tivo has always been correct when I call up and ask about different boxes service levels. I had no reason to think this time was going to be different when I did get the confirmation from the rep.


None of which assigns any financial responsibility to TiVo.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if he does a lot of selling he should be ok refunding your price, which I note you do not mention so it is likely low and unhinges your case.
> Bottom line, you had no contractual agreement with TiVo and they made no promise to you at all. They did not contact you with some claim of theirs, they answered your question the best they could. Why do you throw out 3 CSR answers but the one you make is somehow the golden one?
> 
> Your recourse is the seller


Why does what I paid for the box unhinge my case? It's irrelevant. Even if he was ok with refunding my money why should he be out the shipping costs to send the unit to me, and I'm out shipping costs to send it back to him, all because of several mistakes by Tivo.

No I didn't have a contractual agreement with Tivo. This is the first time I've been burned by them, so you can bet going forward I'm going to get the name of the CSR, a call ID number, and I am going to ask for an email guarantee that Tivo acknowledges blah-box has lifetime service. It's sad I have to do that instead of trusting Tivo to give me the correct information on the phone, and then to stand up to when they make mistakes.

I'll ask you how many times do I need to call and how many different services reps should I talk to before I can say that yes I've gotten the correct answer from Tivo? Yes I called once and put all my faith in that one tivo rep I talked to? How many more times should I have called ZeoTiVo?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> (1) See my above post about the three parties involved (seller, me and tivo) and which one misrepresented the box to begin which.


However, you didn't buy the box from Tivo, you bought it from the seller. The seller misrepresented the box, either due to intentional malice, his own ignorance, or the ignorance of a third party (Tivo).

You probably need to sue the seller, and the seller can then sue Tivo.



billy_goat said:


> (2) It would be the seller's word (one person) and my word (two people) vs Tivo.


Unless you can get the seller to submit a sworn statement or appear in court, your statements about what he told you that Tivo told him are hearsay. It's inadmissible. That brings it down to just you vs Tivo. As far as the recordings, Tivo is under no responsibility to keep a recorded copy of the conversation. They may have a policy to discard recordings after a period of time.



billy_goat said:


> (4) If I did not have the other s1 lifetime to transfer I'd be SOL, so I'm the one providing the solution for Tivo's mistake. Do you like covering for other idiots actions that you work or socialize with? Don't you want those people to own up for their actions?


No, but the fact remains that you asked for a remedy and that remedy was offered to you. It appears they offered to do exactly what you asked them to do.



billy_goat said:


> My issue isn't with the seller, he never didn't lie to me. He told me 2 reps said it had lifetime, 1 did not.


Your issue *IS* with the seller, he took your money in exchange for a Tivo with Lifetime service and shipped you a Tivo without lifetime service. You did not get what you paid for. It doesn't matter whether he lied to you or not (ignorance is not an excuse). It's your transaction with him that was faulty, and that transaction is where the remedy is needed.

I'm not trying to take Tivo's side against you, I'm just thinking you have a very steep case to prove here that would probably be dismissed outright based on a number of reasons, the primary one being that you're suing the wrong party. As others have said, Tivo might not even show up and you might win a default judgment and it'll be up to you to collect on it.

Regardless, go ahead with it ... It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

smbaker said:


> The seller misrepresented the box, either due to intentional malice, his own ignorance, or the ignorance of a third party (Tivo). You probably need to sue the seller, and the seller can then sue Tivo.


If anyone misrepresented the box, it was Tivo, who misrepresented the box to both of us on multiple occasions. Sure they were not financially involved, but they did play a direct role in this financial transaction. I hadn't thought about the seller suing Tivo, or maybe the two of us combine in an Us versus Tivo case.



smbaker said:


> Unless you can get the seller to submit a sworn statement or appear in court, your statements about what he told you that Tivo told him are hearsay. It's inadmissible. That brings it down to just you vs Tivo. As far as the recordings, Tivo is under no responsibility to keep a recorded copy of the conversation. They may have a policy to discard recordings after a period of time.


Yes, if I did take it to court I would get as much evidence as possible, and one of them would be a sworn and notarized statement from the seller. Maybe Tivo has already gone and deleted the call since it's damaging to them, but from talking with the supervisor she was still looking for the instance of the call this past week, so I don't believe it's been deleted. I'm sure come trial time in several months, I wouldn't expect it to still be around if it had not already been found.



smbaker said:


> As others have said, Tivo might not even show up and you might win a default judgment and it'll be up to you to collect on it.
> Regardless, go ahead with it ... It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.


I've been reading up on Texas Small Claims Court:
http://www.texasbar.com/Content/Nav...OurLegalSystem/HowtoSueinSmallClaimsCourt.pdf

And it does appear if the other party does not show up you win by default. I'll still consulting with some other friends so we'll see. If anything at least 458 people (current view count) have learned not to trust Tivo in regards to inquires about box service level.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> I'm not trolling, no marine life here.


Yeah, there is. I can't say for certain whether it is you or the seller's story that's fishy, but there's definitely an aroma in the air. I need hardly add that if you are trolling, the last thing you would do is admit it.



billy_goat said:


> See my post above for more info about the seller. I had already written a book in my first post that I did not list out every detail of the seller. The seller is not the original owner of the box. I believe he acquired it in a bulk electronics purchase.


In that case, he isn't as poor as you made him sound in this post. If it was a large lot purchase, then he should be fine with refunding your money.



billy_goat said:


> Nope, not trolling. And sure I'm emotionally charged over the situation, I feel taken by Tivo for saying one thing and then days later changing the tune of their story.


You were not taken by TiVo. You did not pay them a single penny, and nothing they said or did was fraudulent. Had the unit actually had a lifetime sub, then TiVo would have honored it. Your being pissed off at them in no way increases their proper liability.



billy_goat said:


> I guarantee you, you would be stewing just like me if you were in my shoes.


I guarantee you I would not. I understand that when I purchase a used item, I may not be satisfied with its performance, and that unless a warranty is attached by the seller, I may simply be out the money. That is one major reason why used items are less expensive: one is taking a greater risk when purchasing. It's also highly unlikely I would ever wind up in your shoes. I woud never buy anything at a premium price from someone who could not give me full and exact details of the product without a guarantee of satisfaction / suitability. If something is sold, "as is", then I would not buy it unless it is significantly less expensive than similar items on the block. I strongly suggest you adopt the same policy. To do otherwise is to allow greed to make you into an easy mark for scams.



billy_goat said:


> You could call me naivete if I had just trusted the seller's representation of the box status.


I would never call you naivete. I might call you naive. In fact, it seems I did. Not obtaining an iron-clad guarantee of suitability from the seller is naive. Expecting TiVo to provide their service without a fee is naive. Taking the seller's word at face value that he does not know whether the unit has lifetime service or not is naive. Buying the unit at a premium price when the seller does not know if the unit is actually worth it is naive.



billy_goat said:


> But I'm anything but naivete; I went right to the horse's mouth to get the status from the company itself. I guess me asking the rep three times if he was sure wasn't enough on my part.


It's not a matter of how much you did. It is a matter of not enough of the right thing. There was nothing particularly wrong with calling TiVo, but the transaction requiring security was with the seller. It was there you needed to focus more effort, and you failed to do so.



billy_goat said:


> You can go out on ebay or craig's list and find a working non-lifetime tivo for $20 bucks.


'Not a Dual Tuner model, but the point is, the same TiVo with a lifetime sub is about $100. The difference is $80. You are missing the major point, however. Lets assume an S2 DT like you bought can be had for $75. Let us further assume you paid $200 for the unit. In that case, the seller, knowingly or not, sold you a $75 TiVo for $200. He should not have expected to sell the unit he had on hand for $200, so ethically he should be willing to refund you $125 and let you keep the TiVo, or else get the TiVo back from you and refund you the full price, sans shipping. Legally, he is not required to do so unless your satisfaction was expressly stated as part of the bargain.



billy_goat said:


> In buying a used Tivo, you are paying for the lifetime subscription aspect of the box, not the fact that the box boots up and runs. Since the seller wasn't sure, I went straight to Tivo to get the definitive answer. I mean they're the ones that should know 100% right.


'Wrong on several counts. People *are* selling unsubbed TiVos on ebay - lots of them. Clearly many people are also buying them. Those people do not have the same intent as you do, but nonetheless the hardware has a real value even without a lifetime sub. The unit you received does have a value, the fact it does not meet your desires notwithstanding. Secondly, the value of the TiVo in no way hinges upon what the seller did or did not know. Innocently or not, he sold you a TiVo that was not what you expected. If he is fair and honest, then he will be willing to work out an arrangement with you that reimburses you for the money you do not feel you owe. If you are fair and honest, then you will not expect TiVo to rectify a poorly executed financial transaction in which they did not participate.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> If anyone misrepresented the box, it was Tivo, who misrepresented the box to both of us on multiple occasions. Sure they were not financially involved, but they did play a direct role in this financial transaction. I hadn't thought about the seller suing Tivo, or maybe the two of us combine in an Us versus Tivo case.


You paid for *X* and you received *Y*.

This transaction was between you and the seller. Tivo was not a party to it. Any warranty on the suitability of the device for any purpose was given to you by the seller, not by Tivo. Thus, in my opinion (I'm not a lawyer), your primary beef is with the seller. He is the one you need to seek your remedy from. He needs to either 1) return your money, or 2) provide *X*, the thing that you paid for.

Your case against Tivo is for something else. You're upset (rightfully so) at them for providing incorrect information. You'll have to 1) prove that they provided the incorrect information, and 2) show the damages you have suffered as a result of that information. The damages as lrhorer pointed out, are probably limited to the price you paid for the used Tivo. They're probably even limited to the difference between a the value of a lifetime and non-lifetime Tivo. You also never contracted with Tivo to provide any sort of appraisal service of the box. If you had, then you could be asking Tivo to provide a refund for a faulty appraisal. As it stands they offered you free advice.

Any judge is going to ask you why you didn't seek the obvious remedy which was to return the box to the seller and ask for your money back.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

billy_goat said:


> Why does what I paid for the box unhinge my case? It's irrelevant.


 so what did you pay?


> Yes I called once and put all my faith in that one tivo rep I talked to? How many more times should I have called ZeoTiVo?


you should have called them zero times. The seller should make sure of what he is selling and allow for refund if the customer does not get that. The seller should incur the risk for shipping charges or spell out the customers risk. TiVo, while making a mistake, is not the seller and made no promise or commitment to you.

I personally avoid such sellers as you used for the very reason you now find yourself in. That TiVo DVR went through lots of hands, likely had lifetime on it at some point and then likely was transferred off in one of the transfer deals or some other situation. TiVo had faulty records - that is what they are guilty of and that falls into the normal course of business and buyer beware, especially when trying to pick up a bargain.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Nope. If there's anybody you should take to small claims court, it's the seller, but without there being something in writing from him saying that it had lifetime service, you probably wouldn't win there anyway.

What did you pay? If it's less than the $299 that a lifetime service would cost, then you aren't going to get $299 out of anybody. The most you'd get is the cost of the box, and you'd give up the box in the process.


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## ericom (Nov 10, 2010)

billy_goat said:


> I'll try to make this a short story. I was in the market to purchase a used series 2 lifetime membership tivo. I found a seller that had just the box and power cord (no remote, no problem I've got spares) and with lifetime for sale. This isn't my first lifetime purchase like this, so since there's no way to see what the box reports as the service status, I chatted with the seller who had said 2 tivo service reps told him it had lifetime membership, 1 told him it did not. Wanting to get the final word myself, I got the serial number from him and called Tivo to get the definitive answer from them. I spoke with a male represenative 10/27 3:54pm central time for 6 mins, and he confirmed that it did have lifetime membership, and if I bought the box to call back and to create an account and transfer the box to my name. I confirmed with him again before I hung up.
> 
> Fast forward 5 days when I get the box in the mail, hook it up, and the tivo box does not report lifetime service on it. I immediately call Tivo and talk to the first line of defense, explain my problem, the lady looks it up and now says this Tivo does not have lifetime service. Fast forward 30mins and I'm finally talking to the second line of defense/supervisor. She reiterates that the box does not have lifetime. She basically tells me I'm SOL. I say this is not acceptable, etc. I tell her I have an old series1 box with lifetime and the least she could do is possibly transfer that lifetime to the series 2 box. They were closing for the night, and she said she would also look for my recorded call from 10/27.
> 
> ...


 I think what I would do,is threaten to bring suit,but then offer to settle,if they would send you one of their new "premiere" DVR's!! This might just be easier for them to do,than refund actual money. And,you would breaK even,or close to it,depending on how much the used box you bought cost.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

ericom said:


> I think what I would do,is threaten to bring suit,but then offer to settle,if they would send you one of their new "premiere" DVR's!! This might just be easier for them to do,than refund actual money. And,you would breaK even,or close to it,depending on how much the used box you bought cost.


I'll gather up all my records, statements, sworn seller statements, etc and then probably present it to Tivo and offer to settle before filing in small claims court. I don't want money from them, and sure a premiere box would be nice but I don't feel like I'm entitled to that. All I want from them is to own up to their mistake and to flip a bit for lifetime service on a box they said had it. Costs them no extra money or cost of hardware of a different box from their side.

Even still it looks like in Texas if the other party does not show up for a small claims court appearance that you win by default. But then trying to collect the judgment award from them would be another story.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> Why does what I paid for the box unhinge my case? It's irrelevant.


No, it isn't. If the sale price was low, then it can be inferred it was low because of the uncertain state of the box. It then classifies as an "as-is" transaction, with no suitability implied or to be inferred. Had TiVo agreed to cover the unit based upon your conversation, then they would indeed be liable to provide the service, but had you asked TiVo if they were guaranteeing the unit would be transferable, they surely would have said, "No".



billy_goat said:


> Even if he was ok with refunding my money why should he be out the shipping costs to send the unit to me, and I'm out shipping costs to send it back to him, all because of several mistakes by Tivo.


The fact it is entirely possible the seller lied to you (never having called TiVo at all) and the unit did indeed have a lifetime sub until just a few minutes before the seller shipped the unit to you would absolve TiVo of any legal obligations in this respect. The cost of shipping is what it is. It is part and parcel of the process of buying items used. If you don't like it, don't buy used.



billy_goat said:


> No I didn't have a contractual agreement with Tivo. This is the first time I've been burned by them


You weren't burned by them. You were burned by your own lack of diligence and - it seems more and more likely - your excitement over having found such a terrific deal. As the woman said, "If someone sells you a diamond ring for ten cents, then you are getting a diamond ring that's not worth a dime."



billy_goat said:


> so you can bet going forward I'm going to get the name of the CSR, a call ID number


Always a good idea.



billy_goat said:


> and I am going to ask for an email guarantee that Tivo acknowledges blah-box has lifetime service.


Why? Since the lifetime service can be transferred by the owner at a moment's notice, such a guarantee would be worthless. Getting a guarantee that TiVo will apply lifetime plan if by the time it reaches you it does not have lifetime service would be another matter, but if I were TiVo, I would flatly refuse to make such a guarantee.



billy_goat said:


> It's sad I have to do that instead of trusting Tivo to give me the correct information on the phone, and then to stand up to when they make mistakes.


No, what's sad is you continue to approach the problem from a totally inappropriate direction. If you are thinking of buying a used Chevy from your neighbor, don't think to make GM responsible for any problems that may crop up.



billy_goat said:


> I'll ask you how many times do I need to call and how many different services reps should I talk to before I can say that yes I've gotten the correct answer from Tivo? Yes I called once and put all my faith in that one tivo rep I talked to? How many more times should I have called ZeoTiVo?


As he and the rest of us already pointed out, none at all. The call served very little purpose.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> Even still it looks like in Texas if the other party does not show up for a small claims court appearance that you win by default. But then trying to collect the judgment award from them would be another story.


What about jurisdiction? Is the texas court going to award you a judgment (default or otherwise) against a non-texas corporation? I honestly don't know the answer to this one.

Keep us advised. I'm interested to see how this turns out.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> so what did you pay?


It's interesting he won't say.



billy_goat said:


> TiVo had faulty records - that is what they are guilty of


Not necessarily. It is entirely possible the unit *DID* have lifetime service on it when the OP called.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

smbaker said:


> What about jurisdiction? Is the texas court going to award you a judgment (default or otherwise) against a non-texas corporation? I honestly don't know the answer to this one.
> 
> Keep us advised. I'm interested to see how this turns out.


Just some exerts from "How to sue in Small Claims Court" Texas file that I posted in the first page:

To sue a corporation, on the other hand, you
file against the corporation. A corporation is a separate
legal entity. To properly sue a corporation you
should first contact the Secretary of State and find
out who the agent for service is so that you know
who to serve with the papers. Call 512-463-5555
or e-mail [email protected] and ask if the
business is listed. If it is, get the proper name of the
business and the name of the registered agent (or
agent for service). This is the person you will serve
with your legal papers.

Tell the clerk where the defendant may be
found and the approximate time of day he or she is
likely to be found at that location. This is important
because the defendant must be served before
the court can grant you any relief.

Remember, you cannot recover anything
unless citation has been served on the person or
entity you are suing. The small claims court cannot
help you until the other party is served.

If the defendant
was properly served and has not answered your
suit, you will usually win by default simply because
you were in court on the trial date.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

lrhorer said:


> It is entirely possible the unit *DID* have lifetime service on it when the OP called.


No it did not. Dealing with the second level Tivo supervisor she tried her best to explain how (several) Tivo csr's muffed up the status of the box from the beginning. I couldn't get a complete answer out of her, but it sounds like the representatives made the mistake of looking at the original owner's account instead of the individual serial number of the box I was interested in.

I would not hold Tivo accountable if the seller sold me a lifetime box and then in between the time of me receiving it someway pulled the lifetime off of it.


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

Is the TSN the seller gave you the same one that is on the box you have? If he bought it in bulk, is it possible he sent you a different Tivo? Have you hooked the unit up yet? What does it say on the System Info screen regarding the subscription status?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

smbaker said:


> What about jurisdiction? Is the texas court going to award you a judgment (default or otherwise) against a non-texas corporation? I honestly don't know the answer to this one.
> 
> Keep us advised. I'm interested to see how this turns out.


The judge could also throw the case out ex parte if the case has no merits on its face. Indeed, if he even bothers to glance at the brief, I suspect that is just what he will do. OTOH, there is a good chance the judge won't even bother, so in that case, the OP would indeed win by default. TiVo headqarters being in another state would not really have any bearing on the matter, since TiVo does business in Texas, putatively qualifying it as a resident business.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

WhiskeyTango said:


> Is the TSN the seller gave you the same one that is on the box you have? If he bought it in bulk, is it possible he sent you a different Tivo? Have you hooked the unit up yet? What does it say on the System Info screen regarding the subscription status?


Yes, I did confirm that the original TSN number that we chatted about before the purchase, the one I confirmed with Tivo, is the exact same TSN number that is on the back label of the box and in the info screen in the tivo's software menus. I can't recall exactly what the system screen says, some number (I know 5 is product lifetime service, so maybe it was a #1), but it says call tivo to set up service basically.

And when I say the seller purchased an electronics lot, it wasn't multiple tivo units. It was one tivo unit no remote, a digital camera, ipod, headphones, ethernet cord, mouse; random stuff like that. So there was ever only one tivo box we were dealing with, not multiple boxes he could have gotten mixed up.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> I'll gather up all my records, statements, sworn seller statements, etc and then probably present it to Tivo and offer to settle before filing in small claims court. I don't want money from them, and sure a premiere box would be nice but I don't feel like I'm entitled to that. All I want from them is to own up to their mistake and to flip a bit for lifetime service on a box they said had it. Costs them no extra money or cost of hardware of a different box from their side.
> 
> Even still it looks like in Texas if the other party does not show up for a small claims court appearance that you win by default. But then trying to collect the judgment award from them would be another story.


You seriously expect us to believe you are going to shell out $100 for the filing fee and another probably $50 -$100 to have a process server deliver a summons to TiVo? More importantly, you expect TiVo to believe it?


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

lrhorer said:


> You seriously expect us to believe you are going to shell out $100 for the filing fee and another probably $50 -$100 to have a process server deliver a summons to TiVo? More importantly, you expect TiVo to believe it?


Sure, why not? If it does go to small claims court, you can recover court costs in the suit. So I'd be filing for $299+$100 filing fee + $100 process server fee. Is Tivo going to fly a lawyer to Texas to appear for a small claims case? Don't they have some other bigger settlements to deal with! And if they are a no show then I win the default judgment for the amount of the suit, $299+court costs.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

MichaelK said:


> this is laughable-


:up:
The deal had an undeniable stench before the OP ever called Tivo. People need to learn to walk away from that kind of stink.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> Sure, why not? If it does go to small claims court, you can recover court costs in the suit. So I'd be filing for $299+$100 filing fee + $100 process server fee. Is Tivo going to fly a lawyer to Texas to appear for a small claims case? Don't they have some other bigger settlements to deal with! And if they are a no show then I win the default judgment for the amount of the suit, $299+court costs.


Do you still claim you are not greedy? Extorting goods, services, or money from someone not because it is owed you but merely because you can is not the action of someone who is not motivated by greed.

You *MAY* win by default, but it is by no means certain. You would be out the court costs, however, because there is no way TiVo is going to pay.

Look, you posed this as a vote. It is interesting you posed it this way and talk about going into a civil court over the matter. Up until this point, I count 12 respondents in the thread, with 10 of the 12 voting in favor of TiVo. In civil court, a verdict requires 10 of 12 jurors to vote for one party or the other in order to render a verdict. The jury is in. We find for the defendant, Tivo. We vote the plantiff pay all court costs for both sides for having brought forth such a frivolous suit.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

lrhorer said:


> Look, you posed this as a vote. It is interesting you posed it this way and talk about going into a civil court over the matter. Up until this point, I count 12 respondents in the thread, with 10 of the 12 voting in favor of TiVo. In civil court, a verdict requires 10 of 12 jurors to vote for one party or the other in order to render a verdict. The jury is in. We find for the defendant, Tivo. We vote the plantiff pay all court costs for both sides for having brought forth such a frivolous suit.


Crap, and you're in Texas too, I hope I don't get you on my small claims jury!


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> :up:
> The deal had an undeniable stench before the OP ever called Tivo. People need to learn to walk away from that kind of stink.


That, or negotiate for lower costs and recognize the fact it is a gamble.


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## smallwonder (Jun 13, 2001)

Interesting thread and many have pointed out the significant, overwhelming hurdles in successfully suing Tivo even in Texas small claims court. What's not been mentioned (at least I don't recall seeing it mentioned) is that your terms of service with Tivo explicitly state that California law will control all disputes. It's what you agreed to when you signed up to accept Tivo service.

So since the only contractual relationship you have with Tivo is via the service agreement, I can hardly see how the case would proceed past the jurisdictional issue even if Tivo isn't sitting at that defendant's table... As has been noted before, the financial dispute is between you and the seller, not you and Tivo.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

2 Questions.

1. Why do YOU think the original owner called TiVo 3 times to get the status of the box?


2. Why did you choose an animal often found in the presence of Trolls as your username, if you wanted to be taken seriously?


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

shady said:


> 2 Questions.
> 1. Why do YOU think the original owner called TiVo 3 times to get the status of the box?
> 2. Why did you choose an animal often found in the presence of Trolls as your username, if you wanted to be taken seriously?


Well (a) the seller is not the original owner of the box, who ever that was is not in the picture. I have no idea in what order the seller talked or chatted with 3 different tivo reps. There was a tivo unit for sale, I got its serial number and contacted Tivo about it, told me specifically multiple times during the phone call that it had lifetime. I bought it, called Tivo up to register it and now they change the tune of their story. Not cool.

What does usernames have to do with anything? I've used this username on 15 different forums over 8 years; sorry I don't make up individual cool username for every different forum I'm on. Or I didn't put Tivo anywhere in my user name. Speaking of usernames, Shady's a great one. Instills lots of trust...


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

The Seller took you. You bought the box from the Seller, your issue is with them. When it comes to Craigslist (especially) and Ebay, buyer beware. There is always risk associated with used equipment from unknown third parties, lower price usually means more risk. You got burned, live with it or go after the seller.


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## shady (May 31, 2002)

billy_goat said:


> Speaking of usernames, Shady's a great one. Instills lots of trust...


ha ha, I have no defense against that 

But seriously, I get what happened when you called TiVo, I just wonder why the seller would call 3 times? That's a bit weird don't you think?


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

daveak said:


> The Seller took you.


Exactly how did the seller take me? Please explain. Did he call Tivo and say hey, this guy is calling in 5 mins about this box, lie to him and tell him it has lifetime service on it for me?

The seller told me his experience with 3 different tivo reps, gave me the exact tivo service number, etc. It's really not that hard of logic:

Step 1: Call Tivo
Step 2: Ask customer service rep to verify x-serial number has lifetime service on it
Step 3: Confirm with csr rep again
Step 4: If tivo rep says yes, buy box. If tivo rep says no, don't buy box.

Tivo failed in steps 2 and 3, and now they're just saying "opps".

So yes, please explain to me exactly what the seller did to take me?

I feel taken by Tivo for now changing their story on me.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

shady said:


> But seriously, I get what happened when you called TiVo, I just wonder why the seller would call 3 times? That's a bit weird don't you think?


Yes it could be, and I don't know how it went down on the seller's side. My bet is when he was looking to win the bulk electronics items, he called Tivo asking if the box was worth anything. They probably told him it had lifetime membership on it. Then he went to sell it at a later date (I don't know how much time elapsed) and maybe some other buyer was going to buy it, but tivo told that buyer it did not have lifetime. So the seller again called tivo to confirm what they were originally told, and a third csr rep says it does have it.
I don't know, it could be any scenario.

All I know is I called to find out myself, was told it had lifetime, bought it, and now Tivo is telling me differently.


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## daveak (Mar 23, 2009)

billy_goat said:


> Exactly how did the seller take me? Please explain. Did he call Tivo and say hey, this guy is calling in 5 mins about this box, lie to him and tell him it has lifetime service on it for me?
> 
> The seller told me his experience with 3 different tivo reps, gave me the exact tivo service number, etc. It's really not that hard of logic:
> 
> ...


You thought you were getting a unit with Lifetime, you did not. The seller has not reimbursed you for not providing you with what you paid for. And he is getting off scottfree after taking your money and providing you less than what you paid for - and he is the good guy. He is a 'good' seller. He got you to take the risk, TiVo to take the blame, and he took the money. He's a 'good' one alright.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

daveak said:


> You thought you were getting a unit with Lifetime, you did not.


So ignore what sellers say because you always need to check the facts out for yourself. Who do you contact when purchasing a *Tivo* unit about *Tivo* offering lifetime service on a box. I would probably say call *Tivo* because they're the ones with the definitive knowledge about their boxes. So Yes, I was under the impression I was getting a unit with Lifetime because *Tivo* the company told me so.

I mean seriously, tell me what is flawed with these steps:
Step 1: Call Tivo
Step 2: Ask customer service rep to verify x-serial number has lifetime service on it
Step 3: Confirm with csr rep again
Step 4: If tivo rep says yes, buy box. If tivo rep says no, don't buy box.
If you did this 100 times with 100 different sellers, the only way you would end up with a box without lifetime service is if Tivo screws up steps 2 or 3.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Maybe this Tivo had a promotional lifetime service which is not transferable to a new owner.
I think there was a couple of complaints about that on this forum before.
It was speculated that TiVo is actively seeking out these units, and if they find one that has not called in, they change the service status.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

steve614 said:


> Maybe this Tivo had a promotional lifetime service which is not transferable to a new owner.


No, the tivo representative I talked to and confirmed the status three times, told me to give them a call back when I purchased the Tivo and set it up in my house, and they would set me up with a Tivo account and transfer the box and its lifetime service over into my name. 

Which would be normal procedure if the box did have lifetime on it. But the several Tivo reps made the mistake of mis-reading lifetime on the box by someway not looking at the box status but rather the original owner's account status; I don't know this would need a technical explanation from Tivo when I've only had 10,000 foot level explanation.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> So ignore what sellers say because you always need to check the facts out for yourself.


You don't ignore the seller. Your sales contract is with the seller whether it was spelled out or not. Presumably the seller listed the Tivo as having lifetime service in the advertisement/auction/wherever he sold it. That is the product that you paid for. The product was not as described (no lifetime service). Your beef is with the seller. He didn't give you what you paid for.

Let's say you go into a pawn store and buy a product that has a tag says "solid gold tiffany bracelet". You call up an Tiffany's on the phone, describe the bracelet to them, and the phone rep says "yep, that sounds like a solid gold bracelet". You get home and the gold wipes off and it's a worthless gold-plated lead bracelet. Your beef is with the seller. You take the bracelet back because it was not the item that was described. The seller has breached their portion of the implied sale contract by failing to deliver the item that was agreed upon.

Of course, if the tag on the bracelet said "I think it's a solid gold tiffany bracelet, 2 out of 3 jewelers agree with me, and I'm selling it as is with no returns", then you're @#$!ed. En Caveat Emptor.


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## Resist (Dec 21, 2003)

Note to self: Record conversations with Tivo support, asking them first if they mind the call being recorded. Also ask for their name so it's on the recording.

My experience with Tivo support has been mixed. Kind of like my experience with Charter Cable, but that's another story. Some support staff are more informed than others, some really care while others are just there to get paid.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

The seller indicated that the Tivo had lifetime service, but it doesn't. The item does not match the description in the sales agreement. The shipment is rejected and the seller must issue a full refund.

Tivo issued a free appraisal of the unit, which turned out to be incorrect. There is no warranty on a service given for free.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But don't you understand? TiVo has deeper pockets than the seller. That's the prevailing legal issue.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

Seems like more of a hassle to sue them than to just cough up the $200 or whatever you are out.

And you'll probably lose.

You didn't get the name of the associate. Didn't get it in writing or in an email. Was told up front by the seller that one Tivo rep said it didn't have lifetime. Red flag!!!

Oh well. Sucks, but...


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Resist said:


> Note to self: Record conversations with Tivo support, asking them first if they mind the call being recorded. Also ask for their name so it's on the recording.


If they say "This call may be recorded for quality assurance purposes" you don't need to ask, since they've already given their permission.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

only skimmed.. but 
1) you should have the case #s for the calls you made to Tivo
2) You should complain to eBay or wherever you bought it, you can probably get the refund that way


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## Lensman (Dec 22, 2001)

This is the sort of thing that leads companies to establish the policy that they will not communicate with anyone but the account owners.

Given the expectations of the OP, I'd suggest that Tivo tells its reps to not communicate with anyone but the account holder about box status. This is even arguably correct since telling callers that the box has service now doesn't tell them definitively what the box status will be when they receive the unit - only the seller can make assurances of that.

My vote is that the Tivo rep made a mistake and that as a result the transaction should be reversed. I don't think that Tivo created transactional liability by providing information that it thought was accurate but which wasn't.

Have you tried pursuing this with the seller or did the seller end up selling it to you for the price of an unsubbed unit and so it's a good deal anyway and you're just trying to get an amazing deal by trying to nuisance Tivo into giving you a free lifetime sub? Apologies if this sounds accusatory but I know that people sometimes get so wrapped up in their stories that they lose perspective.

BTW, my advice would be to drop it because even if you think you might win, investing $150-$200 for a chance to win lifetime plus costs in a judgement doesn't feel like good odds to me. DISCLAIMER: This is not legal advice and I disclaim any responsibility from you acting on my advice and losing money. If you don't go to court and someone later tells you that you would have won, I cannot be held liable for the lifetime sub that you might have won.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Where is the poll?


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

aadam101 said:


> Where is the poll?


We were clearly promised a poll and yet none was delivered. Who is going to join me in a class-action lawsuit against the OP?


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

smbaker said:


> We were clearly promised a poll and yet none was delivered. Who is going to join me in a class-action lawsuit against the OP?


Let's sue TCF instead.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

Do you have the case number? If not, then you're going to be out of luck for sure.



billy_goat said:


> Just curious, why would it be a really big if? IF Tivo could find my recorded call then it wouldn't be just my word and the seller word against them. IF the customer service reps would make quick comments inline with boxes talked about on the phone, then the notes of the rep I talked to would say he told me this box had lifetime on it. If anyone's dropping the ball or has flawed processes here, it's Tivo.
> 
> Do you know the prices what lifetime s2 dual tuner boxes go for on craig's list or ebay? Lifetime is pretty desirable, such boxes will sell anywhere from $150 to $275 depending on harddrive size, condition, etc.
> 
> In small claims court I have to sue for a dollar amount, I can sue to make Tivo put lifetime on my box which they said it had. So that's why it's $299 plus whatever other court costs I accrue. It's not like I'm greedy and want to sue them for $5,000 or anything. I want them to own up to their mistake and fix their mistake. I would cost them next to nothing to put lifetime on my box. They're not making money on it anyway, what it's going to cost them bandwidth wise for another box calling into them. It would cost them a lot more to have to settle this in small claims court.


It sounds like you should have had a clue that the Tivo might not have lifetime on it. I really don't think you would have a case.



> _the seller who had said 2 tivo service reps told him it had lifetime membership, 1 told him it did not. _


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

smbaker said:


> We were clearly promised a poll and yet none was delivered. Who is going to join me in a class-action lawsuit against the OP?


I know an attorney who would love to get rich. I will refer this to her.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I love it. I was wondering the same thing. 



Wil said:


> Let's sue TCF instead.


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## magnus (Nov 12, 2004)

I agree with both items here. OP should complain through ebay.



mattack said:


> only skimmed.. but
> 1) you should have the case #s for the calls you made to Tivo
> 2) You should complain to eBay or wherever you bought it, you can probably get the refund that way


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

magnus said:


> I agree with both items here. OP should complain through ebay.


I get the impression he thinks there's more money to be made going after TiVo.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

So TiVo provided the OP with misinformation regarding an item owned by a third party. That's clearly worthy of a law suit.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

scandia101 said:


> So TiVo provided the OP with misinformation regarding an item owned by a third party. That's clearly worthy of a law suit.


...if you have proof.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

scandia101 said:


> So TiVo provided the OP with misinformation regarding an item owned by a third party. That's clearly worthy of a law suit.


If any corp could be taken to SCC (Small claims court) every time somebody gave out the incorrect information and that large corp would have to hire an attorney in every state that they were taken to SCC or have to pay, I will start making a lot of money taking large corp (from say CA) to SCC in CT for whatever as all I would need is my word and for say $400 they would not hire an attorney to represent them in CT as that would cost more than the $400 so I would win in default, I would do this for about say 50 large CA corp than fly out to CA with my $20,000 in judgements and go collect. It can't be that easy to use SCC for out-state-Corp or it would be done all the time, even if you lost a few so what. The lawyers using this form can explain why this can't be done (you all should know that ANY SCC case can be moved to superior court by the other pty) I think you must use the court in the state where the corp headquarters are located.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

smbaker said:


> We were clearly promised a poll and yet none was delivered. Who is going to join me in a class-action lawsuit against the OP?


In. I want to vote "I don't have an iPhone" as often as possible.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

lessd said:


> If any corp could be taken to SCC (Small claims court) every time somebody gave out the incorrect information and that large corp would have to hire an attorney in every state that they were taken to SCC or have to pay


No attorneys allowed in small claims court. They'd have to kick it up to district court. You really think they're going to do all of that for a few hundred bucks?

More likely they don't show, you get a default judgment, and good luck collecting it...


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## Rocketslc (Jan 5, 2004)

I'm a bit late to the dance here, but unless I missed something along the way, and hopefully this is not a Smeek, I find this a bit confusing.



billy_goat said:


> Well (a) the seller is not the original owner of the box, who ever that was is not in the picture. ...


So the lifetime was never transferred to the seller, but is still in the original owner's name. Maybe they transferred the lifetime to a different box somewhere along the line. And second, doesn't Tivo require something from the owner of the lifetime, verifying the unit is sold, before they will transfer it to a new owner ? I doubt Tivo would disclose the name of the original owner.


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

In the end here it sounds as if the OP got sold a bill of good, the serial number the seller gave you must have been different than that he or she SOLD you, regardless of what a TiVo rep told you the repsosibility is that of the OP and not TiVo, TiVo did not sell the OP the Series 2, TiVo did not sell the OP lifetime service therefore TiVo is not liable, the seller may be. IF there is a receipt for the sale what serieal number is on it if any, is it the seirial number that the OP gave the first TiVo rep with Lifetime service OR is it the serial number of the box in the OP's hand that DOES NOT have Lifetime service.
Regardless, the problem with taking the seller to small claims court is the proof of burden is the Op's, how does the receipt read, if the serial number matches the one on the box it is the Op's word against the sellers as to what was said in a "chat", online, phone or otherwise and then the OP has the same burden as to what it will cost to recover the $299 he/she is out..i think in the end the OP will find this to be a true statement.."Caveat emptor"


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> No attorneys allowed in small claims court. They'd have to kick it up to district court. You really think they're going to do all of that for a few hundred bucks?
> 
> More likely they don't show, you get a default judgment, and good luck collecting it...


I have been to small claims court a few times (won each time) and attorneys are there each handling a group of cases. The attorneys are taken to a different room so i don't know how that works. This is for CT anyways.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> No attorneys allowed in small claims court. They'd have to kick it up to district court. You really think they're going to do all of that for a few hundred bucks?
> 
> More likely they don't show, you get a default judgment, and good luck collecting it...


So, who represents a company that is sued if small claims court, if it can't be their attorney?


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> So, who represents a company that is sued if small claims court, if it can't be their attorney?


It can be their attorney, they bump it up to district court where small claims rules still apply.

But TiVo aint sending an attorney to some state to defend a $300 lawsuit.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

I still find it curious that the we haven't heard how much the TiVo was bought for.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> So, who represents a company that is sued if small claims court, if it can't be their attorney?


Probably some sort of regional sales manager or president (i.e. some guy in charge of Tivo sales marketing and distribution in that state or city). They're not going to bother to transport anyone in for such a small claim, so it would have to be someone local. It really depends on what kind of organizational structure a company like Tivo has, whether they have any regional people of authority.

Even so, it's not worth the wages of any competent person to waste going to court over a $299 charge. It would have to be a matter of principle, that some executive wished to set an example by defending the company against the frivolous lawsuit.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

smbaker said:


> Let's say you go into a pawn store and buy a product that has a tag says "solid gold tiffany bracelet". You call up an Tiffany's on the phone, describe the bracelet to them, and the phone rep says "yep, that sounds like a solid gold bracelet". You get home and the gold wipes off and it's a worthless gold-plated lead bracelet. Your beef is with the seller. You take the bracelet back because it was not the item that was described. The seller has breached their portion of the implied sale contract by failing to deliver the item that was agreed upon.


What if the pawn shop had called Tiffany's and read them the serial number on the gold bracelet, Tiffany's said it was a real gold Tiffany bracelet. Then a buyer calls Tiffany's, asks them the same questions, and they say yes it's real Tiffany's. The buyer buys the bracelet, takes it home, and it starts wiping off. The buyer calls Tiffany's asking wtf and Tiffany's now changes their story that umm, it's not our bracelet anymore, even though it was 4 days earlier.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

Resist said:


> Note to self: Record conversations with Tivo support, asking them first if they mind the call being recorded. Also ask for their name so it's on the recording.
> My experience with Tivo support has been mixed. Kind of like my experience with Charter Cable, but that's another story. Some support staff are more informed than others, some really care while others are just there to get paid.


Check your state's laws. In most states, only one of the two people need to be aware of a phone conversation being recorded (that one person can be you, so you don't need to inform the other person). But yes, if you talk to someone in the future get their Name, csr number, a case number for the call, ask them to make notes on the tivo box in questions so there's more proof.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

shwru980r said:


> Tivo issued a free appraisal of the unit, which turned out to be incorrect. There is no warranty on a service given for free.


Tivo can not just go about giving out any info they want. So if every person called and asked about a box and Tivo told everyone that sure all those boxes have lifetime service when in reality they do not; that wouldn't be wrong on Tivo's part? Tivo can say anything they want over the phone?

They don't have computer systems, detailed account information, and reps all in place so they can provide mis-information over the phone. If they get it right 99% of the time, good for them. But that 1% they get it wrong, man up and say "opps, it's a problem on our side and we're not going to shaft you the customer that was affected by a problem Tivo had."


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

What will happen, of course, is their policy will become "I'm sorry, we don't give out subscription information to anybody but the registered account holder or owner." (which, IMO, is what they should have done in the first place).


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

Lensman said:


> This is the sort of thing that leads companies to establish the policy that they will not communicate with anyone but the account owners.


Why do you only have to restrict communication with policy owners? What if the original tivo account owner doesn't own the box anymore, and it's been sold multiple times down the road. There is a fairly big market for older Tivo units and if Tivo wants these units up and running for other owners (so they can push their ads, etc) then they need to provide feedback on older units. The key is they need to communicate the correct and accurate information, not false information.

If the tivo's system is not as easy as punch in box serial number and software reports service level of box, then something on Tivo's side is flawed. And apparently it is since they told both the seller and me the wrong service level.



Lensman said:


> I don't think that Tivo created transactional liability by providing information that it thought was accurate but which wasn't.


Transactional liability; I'm not asking them to refund me the purchase of the tivo box. Service level liability; maybe. They are the de facto provider of their box's service levels, so what they say is the golden standard. If they tell a customer a box has lifetime service, are they liable to stand by statement.



Lensman said:


> Have you tried pursuing this with the seller or did the seller end up selling it to you for the price of an unsubbed unit and so it's a good deal anyway and you're just trying to get an amazing deal by trying to nuisance Tivo into giving you a free lifetime sub? Apologies if this sounds accusatory but I know that people sometimes get so wrapped up in their stories that they lose perspective.


No apologies needed. The seller was told by tivo it was a lifetime unit. When I checked myself I was told it was a lifetime unit by tivo. I paid normal lifetime subbed price of a used series 2 dual tuner box (according to ebay or craig's list history of sales). My grudge is against the one person who change their position after the sale was done, and that was Tivo. Like it or not they are a party in this sale; they provided information to both me and the seller which affects the sale. If they would have gotten it right, there would have been no transaction.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

JETarpon said:


> What will happen, of course, is their policy will become "I'm sorry, we don't give out subscription information to anybody but the registered account holder or owner." (which, IMO, is what they should have done in the first place).


Tivo knows there's a market for older tivo units. They want to get these units back into service to (a) make more monthly revenue by someone buying an older/used tivo and still paying the monthly fee and/or (b) even for boxes with lifetime service, I'm sure they tell their advertisers, "Look, we have 10 million boxes hooked up to our service that we can push your latest ad out to". They want as many customers hooked up to their network as possible, hence used Tivo's too.

So yes I think Tivo still has to give out box service level information to possible new customers of used boxes. But they need to do it correctly. They probably get it right 99% of the time. For that 1% they don't, admit the strange error/bug the new customer found in their system, say they'll correct the bug going forward, and say they'll stand behind the original information even though it was wrong on their side. If they don't, they piss off one customer, who tells all their family and friends about their ordeal with tivo, posts the ordeal on facebook, and creates a thread complaining about the ordeal that's viewed by 1625 other people/potential customers.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

magnus said:


> It sounds like you should have had a clue that the Tivo might not have lifetime on it. I really don't think you would have a case.


Yes, the seller was told by 2 reps it had lifetime and 1 rep it did not. When considering to purchase the unit, I don't know if the seller told the one rep the wrong number or what. So why don't I get the exact service number, call tivo myself and get the word straight from the horses mouth. I did, confirmed with the guy on the phone 3 times if he was sure the box had lifetime service, and he said yes all three times.

I guess you can't trust Tivo to give you the correct information over the phone?


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I get the impression he thinks there's more money to be made going after TiVo.


Not looking to make any money, not looking for Tivo to pay me anything. I would like it if Tivo stuck by their word and if they said a box I was considering buying has lifetime membership, that when I buy it and hook it up and it doesn't that they honor their original statement. Not a opps, oh yeah by the way it doesn't, or mistake the first time. Sorry about your luck there.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

scandia101 said:


> So TiVo provided the OP with misinformation regarding an item owned by a third party. That's clearly worthy of a law suit.


Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. But I would agree with your statement. I would say it's sad that it would come down to a law suit instead of tivo admitting their mistake (which they have on the phone with me) and taking care of the customer instead of leaving them high and dry.



Adam1115 said:


> ...if you have proof.


I would have the chat log between me and the seller (would have it signed, notarized, sworn by seller and myself that it took place), my phone records that show during the chat time I placed a 6 minute call to Tivo. Sworn statement by the seller that he was told by 2 customer reps that the tivo had lifetime service. There is my recorded phone call but I can't rely on tivo producing and giving me that. And I guess I could subpoena a statement from the level 2 tivo customer service representative that has dealt with my case, admitted to the previous representatives problems of looking at the original account holders account instead of the actual tivo serial number itself.

I actually think I would have an abundance of proof. It comes down to a lot of other factors like others have mentioned how does suing a corporation in a different state work, etc.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

Rocketslc said:


> So the lifetime was never transferred to the seller, but is still in the original owner's name. Maybe they transferred the lifetime to a different box somewhere along the line.


The seller never used the tivo box, never had it transferred into his name or anything like that. I still don't have a great explanation from Tivo how this mistake happen, the watered down version I got was that the multiple csr's looked at the original owner's account status, not the actual serial number box status. I don't know if the box at one time did have lifetime and it was transferred off the box ages ago, or if this particular box never had lifetime but the original owner did have other boxes that did have lifetime.

If I do go forward with this, I will have to call the level 2 customer service rep again and get a detailed explanation from her about how this mistake was made on tivo side, the service history of the box in question, etc.



Rocketslc said:


> And second, doesn't Tivo require something from the owner of the lifetime, verifying the unit is sold, before they will transfer it to a new owner ? I doubt Tivo would disclose the name of the original owner.


(a) Yes Tivo will not disclose the name of any account holder that isn't you. And (b) Tivo does not require anything from a previous owner of the box in order for you to add a box to your account. Even if you did acquire a lifetime box, you don't have to call tivo or anything, just hook it up and it will work. Or just call them and say I want to add x-serial number box to my account, and they'll do it. Seems like another tivo flaw, because what if I go to my buddy's house, get the number off the back of his tivo, and tell tivo I want to add it to my account, they'll do it. There's some minor checks and balances in there, for instance I can't add a random tivo box to my account (I live in Texas) and the box is still making internet calls from a different zip code.


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## billy_goat (Nov 12, 2010)

Joe01880 said:


> In the end here it sounds as if the OP got sold a bill of good, the serial number the seller gave you must have been different than that he or she SOLD you


I've answered this already, but no; the serial number the seller gave me before I purchased the unit, is the same number I called tivo about the first time and got assurance that it had lifetime, which matches the serial number of the physical box that was shipped to me (both the label on the back and in the system info screen). So the same serial number from start to finish.



Joe01880 said:


> regardless of what a TiVo rep told you the repsosibility is that of the OP and not TiVo,


...regardless of what the tivo rep said... Are the Tivo reps there to provide false information to the public?

So if a responsible person like myself calls tivo to confirm service level information with them before purchasing a box, and the rep provides me with false/incorrect service information, how is that *my* responsibility for the error? How is that my fault? Where did I screw up there? In calling tivo in the first place? Asking the service rep three times if he was sure it had lifetime on it?

You obviously know of a better place I can call to confirm the service level of of a tivo box. Please do tell...


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

billy_goat said:


> The buyer calls Tiffany's asking wtf and Tiffany's now changes their story that umm, it's not our bracelet anymore, even though it was 4 days earlier.


The buyer returns the bracelet to the seller and the seller returns the money to the buyer. The seller was in material breach of the sale by failing to provide the Tiffany bracelet. Problem solved. It's very simple, really.

Looking at it from the opposite direction, if you paid for the Tivo with a $100 bill and it turned out to be counterfeit (regardless of whether or not a treasury agent examined the bill) then you would be in material breach by failing to abide to your portion of the sale, and the seller would have the right to demand the Tivo returned.



billy_goat said:


> So if a responsible person like myself calls tivo to confirm service level information with them before purchasing a box, and the rep provides me with false/incorrect service information, how is that *my* responsibility for the error? How is that my fault? Where did I screw up there? In calling tivo in the first place? Asking the service rep three times if he was sure it had lifetime on it?


You asked for advice, and it's been explained many times. The seller took your money in exchange for a Tivo with lifetime service. You received a Tivo without lifetime service. You need to seek a remedy from the seller. Suggested remedies include:

1) You return the Tivo and he returns your money
2) You return the Tivo and he gives you a replacement with lifetime service
3) He returns money equal to the difference in value between a lifetime and non-lifetime Tivo.

Why you insist on making such a complicated issue out of a simple return defies logic. This sort of thing happens all the time in ebay transactions (items not received as described in the listing) and buyers and sellers are able to work out the problem.



billy_goat said:


> I guess you can't trust Tivo to give you the correct information over the phone?


Correct! I think you're finally starting to see how this works. You cannot trust a third party if they're not part of the transaction, thus you seek a guarantee (return policy) from the seller beforehand.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

At this point I'm convinced that the OP paid less than $300 for the TiVo, which is why he's trying to get $300 out of TiVo instead of the seller.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> At this point I'm convinced that the OP paid less than $300 for the TiVo, which is why he's trying to get $300 out of TiVo instead of the seller.


Well, duh!

He is so what's wrong with this country. Totally disgusting.


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## Austin Bike (Feb 9, 2003)

I am not a lawyer. Nor do I play one on tv. But I have had plenty of law classes in college and read contracts/work with lawyers on a weekly basis.

You can sue Tivo, there is nothing to prevent that, but it is HIGHLY likely that the case will never see the light of day in terms of a ruling in your favor.

1. Venue. As mentioned before, you will need to sue them in their location, so they are goverend by the laws of california. You will sue them in the county Alviso is located. This entire process, if you are not living in California, will probably cost you more money than it is worth. 

2. Standing. You do not have a standing to sue Tivo because, at this point, you do not have a contract with them. You have a contract with the seller, not Tivo. While tivo might have accidentally given you incorrect information, that can really only be held against them if they were selling you the unit. (Technically, they never should have given you the info because you are not on the account.)

3. Negligence. You bought something from a seller without any protection. There is a legal concept called "contributory negligence." This means if you fall on my property, you can sue me, but if you were drunk and climbed a rickety ladder, you were contributing to the accident, so while you fell on my property, you own part of the accident, so you don't get the whole sum. In this case, you agreed to buy something that the owner could not verify (no remote) and you did not ask for a 5-day return. You are responsible for that my friend. It would be really hard to convince a judge that you were so concerned that you called tivo and yet you did NOT demand a return clause.

4. Stupid statements made online. Don't ever make statements like "tivo has deeper pockets" online as that will undermine your case. Seeing as there are a lot of people on this thread that disagree with you, what would stop one of them from sending this link to the court once you declare that you have a court date. That single statement alone would get the whole thing thrown out.

Here is what Tivo IS liable for: giving you bad information that they should not have given as you are not the account owner. You could sue them over that. But, unless you have a recording it will be dismissed as hearsay. And you would have to show actual damages based on that, and they were only one piece of the problem here. By calling them you have already indicated that you were concerned that this was possibly not legit. In that case you were part of the problem as well.

One of the original posters got it right, you do have too much time on your hands. I recommend sucking it up as a lesson learned and move on. The odds of you prevailing are really low. The odds of the case being thrown out are very high because so much of what transpired was oral and you will not be able to prove any of it.


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## turbobuick86 (May 3, 2002)

(didnt read first 4 pages) but IMHO, Judge Judy would say your gripe is now with the seller. If he won't refund your monies, you can sue him for fraudulently selling you a box that he claimed was subbed for life. TiVo has no liability here. Suing to get a lifetime sub is nonsense, the most you are out is the price of the used S2.


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## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, duh!
> 
> He is so what's wrong with this country. Totally disgusting.


Right. So if that's the case the most he can expect from anyone is to be made whole: purchase price back in exchange for giving up the box. And that would be from the seller.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

billy_goat said:


> If I do go forward with this, I will have to call the level 2 customer service rep again and get a detailed explanation from her about how this mistake was made on tivo side, the service history of the box in question, etc.


I am now finding it funny that you think you would 
a) get this info
b) it would be of any merit in court (TiVo was not part of the sale)

Why won't the seller give you your money back?


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## Joe01880 (Feb 8, 2009)

billy_goat said:


> The seller was told by tivo it was a lifetime unit..


Your taking the word of the seller that TiVo *told* him/her its a Lifetime unit...



billy_goat said:


> When I checked myself I was told it was a lifetime unit by tivo.


You checked with TiVo using information you were given for a unit you did not have in hand and you bought the unit based on information you were given in a *"chat"* you had with the seller. You have assumed the information the seller gave you was accurate and maybe have not considered the seller was *TRYING* to do what seems to have been done, get _someone_ to buy a series 2 TiVo for way more money then its worth..long story short you got screwed.
You have NO, zero case against TiVo, Tivo did *NOT* sell *YOU* the Series 2 nor did they sell *YOU* lifetime service on the series 2 in question and when you checked with TiVo as to if it had lifetime service or not you didnt even own the box yet and gave TiVo information you could not confirm.. and now you want your money back..see the seller..sue the seller or eat the box, you thought you were getting a deal and got screwed and learned a $300 lesson.

Edit: and if the seller reads this forum he or she is laughing his/her ass off



billy_goat said:


> If I do go forward with this, I will have to call the level 2 customer service rep again and get a detailed explanation from her about how this mistake was made on tivo side, the service history of the box in question, etc..


From what i am reading you now own a Series 2 TiVo that has no TiVo service and now you are assuming TiVo has to give you information on an unactivated unit that you did not purchase from TiVo..now im laughing too!
I'd bet TiVo would be willing to sell you a TiVo service plan and if they get wind you are considering litigation thats all they will do!

*"There's a sucker born every minute"*


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## smallwonder (Jun 13, 2001)

Austin Bike said:


> 3. Negligence. You bought something from a seller without any protection. There is a legal concept called "contributory negligence."


Just a minor note but contributory negligence is not an applicable defense everywhere. It's specifically only applicable in those locales where state tort laws permit it and that's a small minority. Most states use the concept of "comparative negligence" - either based on ratios of fault or dependent on the plaintiff being less than 50 or 51% responsible, depending on the jurisdiction. Texas uses the 51% rule; California is a pure comparative negligence state assigning payment based on ratio of negligence.

Not that it matters in this case since as you note, the OP can get past the standing/jurisdiction issues.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

smallwonder said:


> Just a minor note but contributory negligence is not an applicable defense everywhere. It's specifically only applicable in those locales where state tort laws permit it and that's a small minority. Most states use the concept of "comparative negligence" - either based on ratios of fault or dependent on the plaintiff being less than 50 or 51% responsible, depending on the jurisdiction. Texas uses the 51% rule; California is a pure comparative negligence state assigning payment based on ratio of negligence.


Since when? I live in Texas, and it's been a while (more than 15 years), but I was on 2 civil juries, and in both cases we were informed by the judge we could consider contributory negligence, assigning anything from 0% to 100% of the proximate cause to either litigant, awarding pro-rata compensation commensurate with the level of contributory responsibility should we find for the plaintiff.


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## smallwonder (Jun 13, 2001)

lrhorer said:


> Since when? I live in Texas, and it's been a while (more than 15 years).


What you describe is comparative negligence. The jury assigns the percentage of fault and damages are dependent on those percentages. If it had been contributory negligence, the defendant wouldn't have gotten anything if you had found he/she was negligent, even just a little. Texas has been comparative since 1987 but the Texas legislature did a significant overhaul in 2003. The applicable statutes are here.


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