# Interesting bit about TiVo in the Sunday papers..



## cleudo (Apr 7, 2002)

In today's Sunday Herald..

http://www.sundayherald.com/busines...96.0.tivo_growth_in_the_uk_hits_obstacles.php


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

That just confirms what I've always assumed; that it's the manufacturers who won't pay the required license fee, rather than TiVo who won't sell it to them.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

High time for Virgin Media customers to start clamouring for TiVo functionality on their V+ boxes then, methinks


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## Podgy Dad (Aug 18, 2002)

Virgin could really get one over on Sky here. Sky+ is well know for being a very poor PVR. If Virgin could release a PVR using Tivo software they could really score some points. If they also released a freeview box using Tivo software that could really hurt Sky.


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## cleudo (Apr 7, 2002)

Podgy Dad said:


> Virgin could really get one over on Sky here. Sky+ is well know for being a very poor PVR. If Virgin could release a PVR using Tivo software they could really score some points. If they also released a freeview box using Tivo software that could really hurt Sky.


Sounds fantastic - get emailing!

I don't think TiVo will get a tenner a month for the listings though - maybe best to go for banner advertising on the Now Playing....


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Tivo Inc. wouldn't need a tenner a month from cable customers if Virgin took over the daily download provision (they have their own broadband network) and the service support (they have their own call centres) the incremental cost to Tivo Inc. would be very small - the listings are already produced for the 20,000 or so subscribers (source that article).

As cable will come to my village around the same time as jet packs and hover cars I won't be emailing, but good luck to you!


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

The way it works in the US is that the cable companies charge their customers extra for the TiVo service in some complicated way or other (probably like Sky charge for Sky+) and then pay TiVo a fixed fee per customer - but nothing like the £10 per month people pay to deal with TiVo direct. 

Virgin Media's V+ DVR is the same hardware (Scientific Atlanta) as one of the boxes used by Cox Communications in the US, with which TiVo has an agreement to roll out TiVo functionlaity as an OTA update (as they have done with Comcast) shortly - so there should be no technical impediment to VM offering TiVo... if they want to.


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

AMc said:


> Tivo Inc. wouldn't need a tenner a month from cable customers if Virgin took over the daily download provision (they have their own broadband network) and the service support (they have their own call centres) the incremental cost to Tivo Inc. would be very small - the listings are already produced for the 20,000 or so subscribers (source that article).


There is 'readable' EPG data, and 'coded' EPG data, and they differ considerably in the amount of preparation required. The broadcasters only provide 'readable' EPG data, and so Tribune (on behalf of TiVo) have to spend a significant amount of effort in detecting series, etc, and adding the programme, series and genre coding required by the TiVo software.

Having said that, I believe that only a small proportion of the subscription is actually paid to Tribune to produce the EPG data, and the remaining amount pays for maintaining TiVo's servers (a relatively-low overhead), for customer support, for further R&D (probably high), and to cover the subsidised cost of the original licence.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

AMc said:


> As cable will come to my village around the same time as jet packs and hover cars I won't be emailing, but good luck to you!


But Virgin Media will be coming to your village a lot sooner in 1 to 4 years time once BT's 21st Century Network is in place so Virgin can deliver its service in non cabled areas using BT Wholesale's ADSL2+ broadband network. They could go the LLU broadband route but as I think they want 100% coverage they may stick to using BT's network or perhaps some LLU and some partnership with BT.

Laying your own cable network to every front door just isn't economic outside big town and city areas and also changed regulations make it no longer necessary to do so.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cleudo said:


> Sounds fantastic - get emailing!..


Here are the details of the management team of Virgin Media.

http://investors.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=135485&p=irol-govmanage

I should [email protected] a try.

It does seem to me that in view of the hardware Virgin Media is using in the V+ and due to their need to fight back against recent unpleasant tactics by Sky in withdrawing channels that a Virgin Tivo would be the perfect opportunity to do so.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Once again, Pete, a complete waste of time. Which one of those is in charge of the V+ Box? Not one of them! I think I know who would be best to write to, but I would certainly not publish his email address without his consent, not least because his is not a 'customer facing' role 



iankb said:


> There is 'readable' EPG data, and 'coded' EPG data, and they differ considerably in the amount of preparation required. The broadcasters only provide 'readable' EPG data, and so Tribune (on behalf of TiVo) have to spend a significant amount of effort in detecting series, etc, and adding the programme, series and genre coding required by the TiVo software.


Which, I would assume, is the reason that they don't/can't/won't go chasing individual channels for data; they just don't have the time.

Pete77 take note


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Once again, Pete, a complete waste of time. Which one of those is in-charge of the V+ Box? Not one of them! I think I know who would be best to write to, but I would certainly not publish his email address without his consent, not least because his is not a 'customer facing' role


If they aren't the right people their secretaries may well pass the email on to the right person in Virgin Media.

All I can tell you is that the customer service is not the place to make such a suggestion because it is not on their own known and understood map of the world. In fact most Virgin Media UK customer service staff won't even have a clue what a Tivo is.

In my experience emailing senior people in a company often brings results (as with my mother's overflowing Thames Water sewer which customer service continually did nothing about) but if you prefer only to deal with those in customer service Carl then that's quite up to you.

As to publishing the details of these people they are on a publicly accessible web page (albeit a rather well hidden one) so how can that be wrong.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Questions from the US:

I gather this Freeview is an OTA digital TV transmission, and you folks are starting to lose your analog TV. Freeview claims 8.2 million units in use and 15 million boxes and TVs sold. Are these correct facts?

How does Freeview measure the units in use?


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Freeview is an OTA digital TV transmission


Correct, analogue broadcasting is gradually being phased out over the next few years to make more room/money available.


> Freeview claims 8.2 million units in use and 15 million boxes and TVs sold. Are these correct facts?
> How does Freeview measure the units in use?


OFCOM our regulator for this type of thing will track the market and probably build a composite from the units sold in retailers and a representative sample from Neilson/Gallup/etc. Freeview is (as it suggests) Free to View, confusingly there is a pay TV provider called TopUp TV who have a small number of conditional access channels, but the bulk of the programming is subscription free.

In my earlier post I meant to say but didn't - In the event of a licence to Virgin, Tivo would probably get paid by Virgin who would use the service as a differentiator or charge a Sky+ style premium (e.g. £10 a month or free with a high level package). There is little or no set up charge as Tivo already operate a listings service in the UK so the only change would be to support a later generation of hardware a.k.a. the V+ box.



Pete77 said:


> But Virgin Media will be coming to your village a lot sooner in 1 to 4 years time once BT's 21st Century Network is in place so Virgin can deliver its service in non cabled areas using BT Wholesale's ADSL2+ broadband network. They could go the LLU broadband route but as I think they want 100% coverage they may stick to using BT's network or perhaps some LLU and some partnership with BT.


I already have a Virgin Media Broadband connection over a BT phone line. I don't see a lot of use in 'broadcasting' over ADSL/DSL etc. if they were to get that far then I would expect to see more Hi Def Video On Demand with Freeview as BT are rolling out themselves.
Once VOD is established as a serious competitor to broadcasting then a lot of the advantages of Tivo's current offering shrink. 
You don't need a season pass if the season is all in one menu on the box already. 
Wishlists might be interesting, but a quality search does the same thing
Suggestions can be made from the server end and can be more comprehensive as you don't need to store the content locally just offer a link (see Sky Recommendations Engine discussions elsewhere).


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

AMc said:


> Once VOD is established as a serious competitor to broadcasting then a lot of the advantages of Tivo's current offering shrink.


Except the BBC is planning to force you to download such programs during the 7 days after broadcast and to watch it in the next 28 dats (after which Digital Rights Management will delete it). In that way the royalty and copyright situations regarding broadcast material are not totally undermined.

So this is another reason to keep one's Tivo going, since as it takes its programs from a non DRM managed source it will not be subject to such watching or program keeping restrictions.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

AMc said:


> I already have a Virgin Media Broadband connection over a BT phone line.


No you have a Virgin internet broadband connection which comes from the Virgin ISP that preceded the conversion of NTL/Telewest to Virgin Media and uses BT broadband technology that has no connection with the infastructure offered by the former NTL or Telewest parts of Virgin Media.

You only have basic VoD anyone can use on their broadbadn internet connection. You do not have enhanced managed VoD streaming of existing tv channels available on satellite or cable live by broadband.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Except the BBC is planning to force you to download such programs during the 7 days after broadcast and to watch it in the next 28 dats (after which Digital Rights Management will delete it). In that way the royalty and copyright situations regarding broadcast material are not totally undermined.
> 
> So this is another reason to keep one's Tivo going, since as it takes its programs from a non DRM managed source it will not be subject to such watching or program keeping restrictions.


Although, legally speaking, you should not be keeping anything you have Tivo'd for more than 7 days anyway as the law only allows for recording for 'time-shift purposes' to be kept for only a 'short period'; paraphrased and undefined but I guess 7 days wouldn't be a bad guess


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> All I can tell you is that the customer service is not the place to make such a suggestion because it is not on their own known and understood map of the world.


"Hello? Is that VM Csutomer Services? Good. I'd like you to pass on the following comments for me to whoever should be reading them; say the head of the V+ service. Thank-you." Sounds fairly straight-forward to me.

I have done it myself on a number of occasions. When the TVDrive first came-out I was always calling the specialist Team (actually on 151) and giving them Tivo-like suggestions. I never once bothered anyone higher up the chain.



> In fact most Virgin Media UK customer service staff won't even have a clue what a Tivo is.


That's not their fault 



> As to publishing the details of these people they are on a publicly accessible web page (albeit a rather well hidden one) so how can that be wrong.


You can publish a link to any website you like, Pete. The fact that that one was labeled under "information for investors" and not "for customers to contact" would tend to be a big clue though


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

I can't see VM doing it, they are not cash rich to pay Tivo for a lisence, and I don't see that many advantages to VM in doing so.

I see it going like this:-

VM salesman - You want to buy our V+ box as it has Tivo software running it

Customer - Whats Tivo?

Vm salesman - Well its really good PVR software

Customer - Whats PVR

VM salesman - Personal Video Recorder

Customer - and that means

VM salesman - Oh hell with it it just like Sky+ or the old V+

OK I doubt any decent salesman it going to say the last statement but the average customer is not going to be interested in the differences in software or even understand them. It all about features and benifits and to be honest Tivo, MCE, Sky+, and V+ have a simular list, VM have in their favour 3 tuners which the customer understands and can imeditatly see the benifit of.

The main problem used to be with Sky+ (don't know if its been fixed?) was broken series links, also don't know if V+ has this problem. So as Sky+ and V+ are both meant to have season pass funtionality your sales pitch then goes onto slating competitors which always looks bad.

No VM have their own software for which they have paid out for all the RD they are not just going to scrap it and pay for something else it does not make business sence


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

JonMace said:


> No VM have their own software for which they have paid out for all the RD they are not just going to scrap it and pay for something else it does not make business sence


Surely they have actually just bought a standard off the shelf triple tuner PVR software solution from Scientific Atlanta?

Or have I missed something obvious?


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> Surely they have actually just bought a standard off the shelf triple tuner PVR software solution from Scientific Atlanta?
> 
> Or have I missed something obvious?


Possibly but if thats the case then it will come bundled with the hardwareso why spend out more money. Anyway the software would have to be adapted to VMs systems don't forget that V+ does not dial up for EPG and updates it gets it over the air, and the software has to cope with the way that VM deals with this, also all the pop ups etc have to be virgin logoed so there is a afir amount of R&D involved


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

TiVo have rewritten their software to make it adaptable to the various hardware platforms used by US cable companies - eg. Comcast and Cox (who use the same box as the V+) - so I would imagine that branding and OTA acquisition of gude data have already been included.


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> TiVo have rewritten their software to make it adaptable to the various hardware platforms used by US cable companies - eg. Comcast and Cox (who use the same box as the V+) - so I would imagine that branding and OTA acquisition of gude data have already been included.


Your missing what I'm saying and that is that VM already have software whether they brought it off the shelf and tweaked it or they designed it themselves, the fact is they have paid out for it once, why would they scrap it and pay out again for new software?

Not that VM have a lot of cash to spare but I think most of their customers would prefer that cash to be spent on more VOD content and more channels rather than software which very few people have heard off and can see no persevable difference between it and what they already have.

I don't consider VM to be a stupid company when they started looking at a PVR they must have put the software out to tender (unless it comes bundled with the STB) so either Tivo did not win the contract or did not apply, either way you cannot expect VM to brake the contract that they currently have with the software supplier, unless it is priority software in which case they still would not do it because of the money they would have invested in R+D.

Just because maybe 3000 UK people know what a Tivo is and are willing to buy / sub a cable Tivo does not mean that it would be a good business dissision for VM to manufacture one.

I think its about time people face up to the fact that after 5-6 years Tivo are never comming back to the UK


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Although, legally speaking, you should not be keeping anything you have Tivo'd for more than 7 days anyway as the law only allows for recording for 'time-shift purposes' to be kept for only a 'short period'; paraphrased and undefined but I guess 7 days wouldn't be a bad guess


The law does not define time shifting, or use the phrase "short period".

I would suggest that you can time shift over any period, but if you keep it after it's been watched once, then you move from time shifting to archiving.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I didn't think much of your hypothetical conversation, Jon 

I think that, when the benefits of the Tivo system are explain (SPs that actually work, for example; or wishlists) then they *will* get people subscribing. As it is, the current system is still excellent. It just needs to be Tivo


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

cwaring said:


> I didn't think much of your hypothetical conversation, Jon
> 
> I think that, when the benefits of the Tivo system are explain (SPs that actually work, for example; or wishlists) then they *will* get people subscribing. As it is, the current system is still excellent. It just needs to be Tivo


Do SPs work on V+ or are they tike Sky+ in that if a program is not aired one week the SP is broken?


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

JonMace said:


> why would they scrap it and pay out again for new software?


They don't have to. In the US, the TiVo service is offered as an optional extra for Comcast DVR users, for which they pay more money.


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

blindlemon said:


> They don't have to. In the US, the TiVo service is offered as an optional extra for Comcast DVR users, for which they pay more money.


For Tivo to do the work, to make it fully compatable with the VM system, yes its the same STB as Comcast but I doubt very much that Comcast and VM have exactly the same backend, I'm sure that they would either want a fee or a mininum sub base, neither of these would work for VM.

And I really doubt that there would be many takers that would pay £5 a month for VTivo over V+, and don't forget that if they did offer that option they would be admitting that the V+ software does not work which would be marketing and financial suicide.

As much as I say about 3000 (and that a guess working on the fact that there are apparently 20k tivo users in the UK and not even a 1/3 of them are cable customers and not all of them would be looking at upgrading) Really want the product does not mean that it is financially viable.

You have to remember that everyone here is a Tivo fan and will automatically think its a great idea as we all love tivo, but in the greater scheme we mean nothing


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Virgin did a survey a while back with a page of questions that basically involved adding tivo features to V+ :link


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

JonMace said:


> Do SPs work on V+ or are they tike Sky+ in that if a program is not aired one week the SP is broken?


I had one of the first Telewest TV Drives (as was) and it was quite good at recording all of a series. It certainly wasn't as intelligent as Tivo; it was basically 'record this programme at this time on this channel' and would not automatically pick up a later showing if there was a clash. (Though of course with twin tuners, there rarely was ) I didn't have it long enough to test out if the Series Links were particularly persistent.

My review is still available here.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> But Virgin Media will be coming to your village a lot sooner in 1 to 4 years time once BT's 21st Century Network is in place so Virgin can deliver its service in non cabled areas using BT Wholesale's ADSL2+ broadband network. They could go the LLU broadband route but as I think they want 100% coverage they may stick to using BT's network or perhaps some LLU and some partnership with BT.





Pete77 said:


> AMc said:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by AMc
> ...


Is it a Virgin line wholesaled by BT's 21st C network or a Virgin line over Virgin's network which I need to get Tivo from Virgin- Pete77?



Pete77 said:


> You only have basic VoD anyone can use on their broadbadn internet connection. You do not have enhanced managed VoD streaming of existing tv channels available on satellite or cable live by broadband.


No, I have no VOD fro Virgin at all. Funnily enough I know what's available from my own ISP.

If you can stream a couple of TV channels over a broadband connection regardless of connection method then you no longer need to 'broadcast' multiple channels in the conventional sense of the word. The challenge becomes content selection not delivery.

Virgin are currently giving away a Freeview box with no VOD capabilities with their top line ADSL product so they're clearly not that far down the line with an integrated offering. Chucking in a £25 Freeview box with a talk plan and broadband connection just allows them to play the triple play card outside the cabled areas.

IMHO It would make no commercial sense to explore 'broadcasting' over ADSL until they've properly exploited the capabilities of their own network which is essentially free following the dept for equity restructuring of NTL and TeleWest prior to the Virgin rebrand. If I were them I would let BT iron out a lot of the kinks with their offering (which is primarily Freeview based) before I invested my limited resources on a system outside my own networks.



Pete77 said:


> Except the BBC is planning to force you to download such programs during the 7 days after broadcast and to watch it in the next 28 dats (after which Digital Rights Management will delete it). In that way the royalty and copyright situations regarding broadcast material are not totally undermined.


Nonsense, when I had TeleWest 6 months ago there was some catch up content from the BBC and other channels which disappeared after 7 days and hundreds of other TV programmes including many complete series and films available from their on demand service for nothing. 
Once the systems are in place to revenue share pay per view then there will be no reason not to allow a customer the chance to see all the episodes of a series as the content producer will get paid each time a show is watched.
At the moment the licence agreements with broadcasters cut the content producers out of the loop so there are time limits on the exploitation rights, once that is resolved there will be no need for artificial timeouts.

The challenge with VOD will be 1000's of programmes and no 'schedule' to guide viewers to appropriate content. In a few years downloading programmes onto local storage pre-emptively is going to look as dated as going to the cinema to watch the news.

As I said earlier I wish Virgin cabled customers every success in getting Tivo onto their STBs but by the time that technology is viable outside those areas VOD will have moved past the point where many Tivo features are compelling.

Feel free to partially represent my opinions and switch stories from here...


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

> Feel free to partially represent my opinions and switch stories from here...


LOL


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## magistral (Mar 9, 2004)

I don't think that the cable networks are anywhere close to being able to provide true VOD over their network. At the moment they can offer you a 10Mbps data connection over and above their normal shared broadcast digital TV signals. They may soon move to 20Mbps for data so that would seem to allow you say 10Mbps for broadband and another 10Mbps for a VOD feed. However, the broadband connection is supplied with a contention in the region of 20:1 on the basis that not everyone on a particular leg of the network is using the whole of their 10Mbps all the time. With VOD of course they would be. 

So I'm not convinced that they could provide thousands of subscribers with jitter free VOD over their current network. If you throw in some HD channels they have an even harder time.

m.


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

magistra said:


> I don't think that the cable networks are anywhere close to being able to provide true VOD over their network.


Erm, they have already been providing HD VOD for at least a year over their cable network right now.

They don't do it over broadband though if thats what you mean though.



cwaring said:


> I had one of the first Telewest TV Drives (as was) and it was quite good at recording all of a series. ... I didn't have it long enough to test out if the Series Links were particularly persistent.


I've had it from the start, and it hasn't lost any series links at all (unlike my neighbours's sky+ that still loses them - he has a notepad by the TV with all his series links listed  )


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## iankb (Oct 9, 2000)

mikerr said:


> ... unlike my neighbours's sky+ that still loses them - he has a notepad by the TV with all his series links listed


I used to list my TiVo Series Passes on the TV, and take digital photographs of the screen. Easier than writing them down.


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## magistral (Mar 9, 2004)

mikerr wrote.
quote:

Erm, they have already been providing HD VOD for at least a year over their cable network right now.

They don't do it over broadband though if thats what you mean though.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, They do VOD but on a small scale at present. If there was a major shift from watching scheduled broadcasts to using VOD their current network infra-structure would not cope.

Broadband and digital TV are the same network. They share the available bandwidth on the cable. The bottleneck is not in the physical cable itself but in its topology and the active equipment on the network - network switches, routers and street box hardware.

( Sorry, I haven't worked out how to quote properly yet ! )

mike


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

magistral said:


> ( Sorry, I haven't worked out how to quote properly yet ! )


Click the QUOTE button. (Bottom-right of posts) It's not difficult


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

magistral said:


> Yes, They do VOD but on a small scale at present.


Its available _as standard_ to every single one of their customers with a digibox. I wouldn't call that "small scale" !



> If there was a major shift from watching scheduled broadcasts to using VOD their current network infra-structure would not cope.


A silly argument. 
If everyone turned the kettle on at the same time the national grid wouldn't cope either.
People aren't going to move wholesale to VOD overnight, and neither is VM's network going to remain static forever.


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## AMc (Mar 22, 2002)

If VOD becomes the dominant method of access then the broadcast streams can get reduced and removed 'a la' the analogue to digital switch in (most) cable networks.
If no one is watching the live streams then they'll free the pipe for something else. 

I know the broadcast and IP systems aren't exactly equivalent, but I doubt that Virgin would encounter an insoluable technical problem within their own dedicated networks. Out on the wider internet routing and quality of service become more of an issue, but within their own networks it must be achievable.


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## magistral (Mar 9, 2004)

As someone who has tried to do VOD on a small scale ( 100s of viewers rather than the 1000s that Virgin have), I know some of the difficulties even on a dedicated network. I'm sure that it's possible given the right amount of investment for Virgin to make it the dominant method of delivery. If that's what the public want then I guess that's what they will do. It does however, make you realise what a great thing broadcast and multicast is.

mike


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I must admit that (barring the odd 'catch-up tv' programme) I hardly ever use VMs VOD service. Not sure why as it's rather good. I think I just have too much to watch from my Tivo


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Not sure why as it's rather good. I think I just have too much to watch from my Tivo


And/or you are simply reluctant to pay any more on top of that £10 a month to Tivo that you need no longer be paying had you had more confidence in Tivo UK's long term survival.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Of course, none of that is atually true. As I have previously told you, Pete, I could barely afford the Tivo when I bought it so the LT sub was simply not an option; what with my being long-term unemployed, which is something I am not going to go into again.

Plus, a lot of the VOD stuff is currently free anyway


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## manolan (Feb 13, 2001)

Well, returning to the post at the start, I think the most interesting thing is that Sky had bought a TiVo license. I wonder whether it had any exclusivity and stopped TiVo approaching other UK manufacturers for a while.


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## jeremy Parsons (Jan 6, 2002)

during Peak Hours the VM VOD service seems to overloaded, its not yet bulletproof .


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

VoD and IPTV here is available free of charge with Telia. Sounds a good deal, but...

If you have TV over broadband your nice 24 Mbps connection instantly reduces to 8 Mbps.

When you are watching TV it drops by another 4 Mbps.

Even though it's now only a max of 8/4 Mbps you still pay for a 24 Mbps connection.

Somehow it doesn't appeal.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

kitschcamp said:


> VoD and IPTV here is available free of charge


How much more do they charge for a 24Mbps connection than a regular ADSL connection? That by the way will be the actual hidden price of your IPTV and VoD? 

At my mother's UK address she only gets 4.2Mbps with Be Unlimited - little better than she would get on ADSL Max. So no 24Mbps if you live 3.5km away from the exchange with ADSL2+................


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

Did not home choice do IPTV on 8 meg?


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

24 Mbps is 349 Kr per month (about £25 a month ish). 8 Mbps is 299 Kr per month (about £22 a month), so £3 a month for digital TV. If you need it, an absolute bargain! Boxer, our digital TV provider, is about 149 Kr (£11) per month for the same channels.

I don't have the digital TV from Telia because I need the fast connection more than the free tv.

As for the speed, yup I get 24 Mbps in a tiny village of 400 people, about 20 Km away from our nearest big town. In the UK I lived 2 Km away from the exchange and could only get 6 Mbps. Here in Sweden they've invested hugely in internet for the countryside - everyone should be able to get cable, ADSL or wireless wherever you live. They've shifted lots of equipment out into rural locations.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

JonMace said:


> Did not home choice do IPTV on 8 meg?


You can get it here on 8 meg and 2 meg, too. But the slow down isn't anywhere near as drastic as you get with a 24 meg connection. The 8 meg would slow down to about 6. With the 2 meg they effectively "boost" the speed to make it work.


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

JonMace said:


> Did not home choice do IPTV on 8 meg?


I think Home Choice was run over a 2.4Mbps line, although it may have changed in recent years.

Ian


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## JonMace (Mar 2, 2002)

verses said:


> I think Home Choice was run over a 2.4Mbps line, although it may have changed in recent years.
> 
> Ian


In that case why are people saying that the infrastucture cannot support IPTV as it clearly can?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

JonMace said:


> In that case why are people saying that the infrastucture cannot support IPTV as it clearly can?


The current national broadband backbone can't support everyone watching IPTV at once. A certain percentage of the population is no problem. That will change when BT's 21st century network is complete in late 2011.

Also 2.4Mbps will support SDTV but not HDTV so another potential obstacle to some consumers taking up IPTV watching.


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

Ummm... I think the national backbone can cope. BTs infastructure may differ.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

ColinYounger said:


> BTs infastructure may differ.


It does differ and is not even an IP based network at exchange level and gets converted somewhere along the line.

That is why they are spending a fortune on building their 21st Century Network which basically means binning all their 25 year old System X and System Y based exchanges in favour of totally IP and Voip based equipment.


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## Ashley (Apr 20, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> It does differ and is not even an IP based network at exchange level and gets converted somewhere along the line.
> 
> That is why they are spending a fortune on building their 21st Century Network which basically means binning all their 25 year old System X and System Y based exchanges in favour of totally IP and Voip based equipment.


Hope it'll work better than my BTTalk voip!


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

Pete77 said:


> The current national broadband backbone can't support everyone watching IPTV at once.


Even if that were true - which I don't think it is - its unlikely that takeup of IPTV is likely to hit 100% overnight anyway 

When it does, the network will be whole different animal than it is today.As takeup increases, so will investment and upgrades...

IME most problems are in the "last mile" of the link to the customers, not the backbones. 
E.g. contention at exchanges, UBRs


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## verses (Nov 6, 2002)

mikerr said:


> Even if that were true - which I don't think it is


Unfortunately it is true, the internet largely works with the concept of contention ratios, whereby not everyone is using all their available bandwidth at once. Even if they are, delaying a packet, losing the odd packet, or losing a bit of bandwidth isn't a huge problem when accessing non-realtime content (webpages, email, etc).
However, realtime, bandwidth-intensive content (TV) dies on its arse when bandwidth is lowered or packets are lost/delayed.

Ian

PS: Apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs


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## mikerr (Jun 2, 2005)

verses said:


> Unfortunately it is true, the internet largely works with the concept of contention ratios, whereby not everyone is using all their available bandwidth at once.


Aye, but my point is that high contention ratios occur mainly at the "last mile", not at the backbone. The end result is much the same though.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

mikerr said:


> Aye, but my point is that high contention ratios occur mainly at the "last mile", not at the backbone. The end result is much the same though.


It also operates on the ISP controlled leg from the exchange to the backbone.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> It also operates on the ISP controlled leg from the exchange to the backbone.


As customers of TalkTalk and Tiscali broadband are only too painfully aware.

See www.dslzoneuk.net


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

mikerr said:


> When it does, the network will be whole different animal than it is today.As takeup increases, so will investment and upgrades...


Only if it's financially viable. When the internet started to take off, the networks started investing to make access better, then they introduced fixed price deals and started to massively reduce income.... Companies went bust, caps were introduced, etc etc.

... broadband started to take off. Networks said "this will be a premium product and bring in high revenues". Prices started to drop massively, voice income reduced from further competition from VoIP and bundled packages, and now the networks in the UK are whinging saying they need to put caps in place, etc, because it's too expensive to provide on the incomes they have!

Similar things are starting to happen here in Sweden with TV. The digital switchover is almost complete here, and that's led to millions of people having to get their TV from somewhere.

Not sure what cable charges as we can't get it. Boxer charges around £11 a month for their basic package. Viasat have retaliated and you can get the equivalent package for around £5 a month. Now Telia have retaliated to both and gone to zero! Once you've reached zero income you can't really get any lower or easily generate a revenue stream for investment.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

kitschcamp said:


> Now Telia have retaliated to both and gone to zero! Once you've reached zero income you can't really get any lower or easily generate a revenue stream for investment.


Is it not a fake zero cost rather than a real zero cost.

i.e. TalkTalk claim to offer you free broadband on their UK unbundled exchanges but you have to take an £8.99/£9.99 (the latter is essential if you make any overseas calls at all) calls package and your line rental from them at £11 per month in order to get the so called "free" broadband. It is very cheap but then the speed of the service and the customer service offered is utterly dire.


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## kitschcamp (May 18, 2001)

Nope, no catches. Line is about £7 a month from Telia, broadband is £25 and that's it. You could take your calls to anyone you wanted (and your line rental). It's a very deregulated market here. I'm sticking with Telia because the customer service is very good, the service has been utterly reliable, and I can't see anyone else with a compelling enough attraction to even think of moving.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

Unfortunately over here we have nominal but not real de-regulation of line rental costs in areas where the only phone lines are supplied by BT Wholesale.

In a non cabled area you have to take a phone line and pay phone line rental to get broadband. Even if you make all your calls via voip you have to pay phone line rental at £11 per month to BT or to other companies who nominally take over your billing but charge very near BT's £11 or often more (if you take into account them charging you for Caller Display and BT providing it free to its customers) because they have to pay BT almost this much for the phone line provision. It is outrageous there isn't a lower phone line rentl charge if you only want broadband as BT's £11 per month fee includes a payment towards their discount Option 1 call price plan, however this is the cosy and anti competitive setup useless UK regulator Ofcom has allowed.


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