# Game of Thrones 8/20/17 "Beyond the Wall"



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Wow, wow wow! The second to last episode of the season is always epic, but this blows previous seasons away, even though I predicted the ending was going to happen at the end of last season. 

Couple of nits though. Does the Night King just happen to carry around dragon killing spears all the time? Also how is John still alive after all that. 

Other that those nits, this was a great episode.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I hate to admit it, but I did not see that coming! At least we know, the one who makes them rise will be the one who needs to die first!


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Not sure where you got your episode title from. The HBO Now app is calling it "Beyond the Wall"

And yes, they carry around those spears with them all the time. I'm pretty sure we saw those at Hardhome, too. 

That opening scene was full of great lines. The little argument between Jon and Tormund about whether Winterfell is "down south" or in the north. The reaction from Gendry after Tormund's "we'll have to make do with what we've got". Tormund's comments about Mance being to proud to bend the need and how many wildlings died because of it. Gendry: "she strapped me down and stripped me naked"..."sounds alright so far". And later the interaction between Tormund and The Hound about gingers, fire, liking dick, and Brienne of f'ing Tarth. Jon and Beric's bonding over deaths and oaths. All in all, it was a lot of "filler" material, but it's was all great...the type of stuff they've been badly missing a lot of this season now that they're writing for themselves.

I don't like Arya's righteous attitude. She even points out how if Jon knew about the scroll, he wouldn't be mad at Sansa because he would understand what she went through. Well how about that Arya, why don't you take a clue from your older brother.

And once again, I'm not liking Dany's attitude either. I don't like it when she gets angry and picks fights with her advisors. It doesn't suit her.

Not sure who got eaten by that bear, or later who got pulled down into the white walker mosh pit. Must be just one of those extras (still don't know who they were), becuase we know Jon, Beric, Gendry, Tormund, Jorah, and The Hound survived (the only significant character to die was Thoros freezing to death).

Interesting that we have confirmation that Winterfell has not heard from Jon. How hard is it to send a freaking raven, Jon? 

From the moment they hatched the plan to head north I figured they were almost certain to run into more enemies than they could handle. Glad to see the writers didn't try to get away with some unlikely scenario like them abducting a single white from the whole group, or just getting lucky and bumping into a single one like Sam did. But the whole "Gendry, run back to Eastwatch" bit...sure he's the fastest runner, but he's got no experience even being in snow, much less the blizard conditions up there.

I'm not sure what to make about the whole Littlefinger scene about Brienne being there to protect Sansa and Arya from each other, and then Sansa promptly sending Brienne away when they get the raven from Kings Landing. Littlefinger seemed to be probing about Brienne (though I think he already knew the answer). Did he forge that raven message from Kings Landing? And did Sansa purposely send Brienne away specifically because of Arya?

Damn The Hound and his stupid rock throwing. What they really needed was more flaming bodies to remelt the ice (and maybe some more sledehammer action). But I'm certainly glad they saved Tormund from getting dragged under.

So which dragon died? Rhaegal or Visceron (I'm not sure how to tell them apart). That was an agonizing long setup to his death. You could see it coming so far away. So sad seeiing him sink down into the water, but I'm glad they had the White Walkers turn him in the end. We talked about that possibility a number of times, and I think it would have been a huge plot hole had they just left him dead in the water.

I wonder what happens to Benjin now. After what's happened to him before, can he be killed? Or turned? Not sure why he stayed behind though. I didn't get the whole "theres no time" bit. I think the horse could've easily got both of them to safety, even if Benjin didn't go all the way back to Eastwatch.

So I believe we heard last season that Benjin was saved by the children pushing dragon glass into his heart. Not sure what the distinction was between when dragonglass turns you into a white walker vs saves you from becomming a white walker vs kills you when you are a white walker. Is it just multipurpose depending on the timing, or is there some ritual involved that makes the distinction. Either way, I think the guys at the wall could use some of Qyburn's scorpions to fire some dragonglass tipped bolts right about now. But it will be tricky to get their hands on them. If Cersei finds out about the white walkers killing a dragon, she's more likely to try and form some partnership with the white walkers just to take out Dany, consequences of it all be damned. 

But on that note, we kind of think of the white walkers being some sort of almost-unstoppable killing machines that can't be reasoned with (much like The Terminator). Yet we saw before that Caster had made some sort of arrangement with them that had gone on for quite some time, so under the right circumstances I guess the can be bargained with. So I guess it's possible she could do that, but I really hope next weeks big plot item is finally her death. 6 episodes seems like the right amount of time to wrap up a lot of loose end and take on the White Walkers without it feeling too rushed (which is how I think it would feel if we also had to deal with her next season).


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

This is weird, TiVo is showing the episode name as "Death is the Enemy", but HBO Go says it is "Beyond the Wall". I'm guessing TiVo is wrong.

Kind of annoying since I was watching in HBO Go but it wouldn't display the title until I backed out so I used the episode name on the TiVo. Rovi guide data, what else can I say. 

I asked a mod to change it.


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

The Night King one ups the scorpion weapon... Didn't see that coming.

Also, The Hound seemed like a real dumb ass this episode. I imagined Tyrion calling him a ****ing idiot when he threw that rock across the ice and it didn't go far enough...

What happened to Rhaegel? I thought Dany brought all three dragons, but only remember seeing Drogon flee.

EDIT: Viserion was the Dragon killed. At according to the closed captioning for the hearing impaired.


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

Maybe that's next week's title?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> So I guess it's possible [Cersei] could do that, but I really hope next weeks big plot item is finally her death. 6 episodes seems like the right amount of time to wrap up a lot of loose end and take on the White Walkers without it feeling too rushed (which is how I think it would feel if we also had to deal with her next season).


I don't think so...with Cersei, the Game is still very complicated. Once she's gone, it becomes very simple...the living vs the dead. I don't think they're near ready for that yet.

My hunch is the end game for Cersei and Jaime is Jaime's realization that Cersei is as mad as the Mad King, that if she keeps fighting she will doom the human race, and that she has to be stopped with extreme prejudice. Kingslayer turned Queenslayer. Probably in the middle or late-middle part of next season, after she's given birth to (or lost) the only thing that could stop him under those circumstances.


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

So, basically, Viserion is a Black Lantern? (DC Comics buffs should get that one.)


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

I wonder if a Wight Dragon still breaths fire.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

gossamer88 said:


> I hate to admit it, but I did not see that coming!


neither did i, and it was right there in front of us, but i tend to save my serious deconstruction for the second viewing, and just sit back and enjoy the first watch.



DUSlider said:


> I wonder if a Wight Dragon still breaths fire.


my first question.


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## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

DUSlider said:


> I wonder if a Wight Dragon still breaths fire.


And if it does, will it set itself on fire?


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## pjenkins (Mar 8, 1999)

wow....


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

morac said:


> Couple of nits though. Does the Night King just happen to carry around dragon killing spears all the time? Also how is John still alive after all that.


Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. Jon caries a WW killing sword every where he goes...


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

My boss had predicted the zombie dragon. It made sense. As for having dragon killing weapons, I'm sure that's how the Night King got a zombie Polar Bear, too, and probably the zombie Giant.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

DUSlider said:


> I wonder if a Wight Dragon still breaths fire.


My bet is on breathing ice.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Robin said:


> Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. Jon caries a WW killing sword every where he goes...


Actually I just rewatched it and the WW takes the last spear to kill the first dragon, but another one is there to throw at the second dragon so apparently the spears appear on demand. That or they are constantly forming.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

morac said:


> Actually I just rewatched it and the WW takes the last spear to kill the first dragon, but another one is there to throw at the second dragon so apparently the spears appear on demand. That or they are constantly forming.


i thought the second spear was handed to the night king from one of the ww standing behind him?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Finally we can talk about this incredible episode! 

So much great stuff.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

Maybe Jon survived because he has some extra protection against ice like Dany does against fire.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> i thought the second spear was handed to the night king from one of the ww standing behind him?


The same walker (big white beard) handed him both spears, but you are right it might have been a different horse or it might be the same. There's no way to tell.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I did some searching on reviews an apparently it was Viserion that dies. Still, not sure how you tell them apart, but that's what I read

Also, I went back and checked Hardhome. What we saw there was not identical, but very similar to this weeks spear. But even in Hardhome, we get a shot of a different WW that has a differently styled icicle-like weapon. So they probably all have some variation, but the point is they seem to always carry this style of weapon with them.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

morac said:


> Actually I just rewatched it and the WW takes the last spear to kill the first dragon, but another one is there to throw at the second dragon so apparently the spears appear on demand. That or they are constantly forming.





morac said:


> The same walker (big white beard) handed him both spears, but you are right it might have been a different horse or it might be the same. There's no way to tell.


Sure there is a way to tell. Lets check the video. The first spear comes from the rearmost, rightmost horse (you don't see any other horses in the background behind that horse). For the second spear, you can see another horse behind and to the right (our right, the horse's left) the horse with the 2nd spear. And behind the Night King (can't see in this screenshot) is the same white walker who handed him the first spear (thus the horse behind the Night King is probably the horse that the first spear came from.


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

So since the Night King touched Viserion to bring him back, wouldn't that make Viserion a White Walker Dragon? Thus fire wouldn't hurt him. That would also make it more difficult to bring him down. His brothers wouldn't be able to harm him at all. So we are looking at scorpion arrows tipped with dragon glass or valerian steel as the only way to kill him.

This probably answers my question before. A White Walker Dragon will still breath fire as fire doesn't do anything to White Walkers.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I assumed it was Viserion because he was named after her ahole brother, and it wouldn't make sense if they killed the dragon named after Jons dad.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Fire doesn't hurt White Walkers, but they still wield ice weapons. My bet is he'll breath ice, maybe in the form of a freezing mist. Maybe something like this:


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Way did not see that coming!! Whoa!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

More googly eyes.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> My bet is on breathing ice.


That was my first thought.


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

The first ice spear came from the far right rearmost horse. This horse two ears and appeared to be wearing some type of blanket. Harder to see the horse with the second spear, but he appears to be the middle horse and he also looks to be wearing some type of saddle. When you eventually see them riding away, there are 3 horses and they exit toward the left side of the screen. The first two have rider's and both of them are missing an ear. The third (which would have been rightmost horse) has two ears and is wearing a blanket and is being led as opposed to being ridden. It looks to me the spears came from two different horses.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Great job by me predicting the zombie dragon!

I'm so awesome! 

I'm voting for breathing ice.

Now Dany has seen the scars from Jon's assassination. I thought for sure he would say something like "ok...so Dany is out...how about I call you wife?"...alas, he did not. Jon Snow knows nothing.

Loved the little touch of her caressing his hand with her thumb.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

If the dragon can still breathe fire, maybe it can melt the Wall. 

Or the NK can just fly over it on the dragon.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

LordKronos said:


> I'm not sure what to make about the whole Littlefinger scene about Brienne being there to protect Sansa and Arya from each other, and then Sansa promptly sending Brienne away when they get the raven from Kings Landing.


Perhaps, Sansa thinks with Brienne out of the way, she (Sansa) can deal with Arya.



DUSlider said:


> Also, The Hound seemed like a real dumb ass this episode. I imagined Tyrion calling him a ******* idiot when he threw that rock across the ice and it didn't go far enough...


Just because the ice can support the weight of a stone doesn't necessarily mean it's thick enough to support a body.

Just a thought. Isn't Drogon, sitting on the ground, an easier ice spear target than a flying Viserion? Or is the Night King just showing off his uncanny Olympian javelin throwing skills?


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I still enjoy watching but the show has become incredibly dumb. The whole plan to go beyond the wall was dumb, not taking dragons, dumb. Ravens delivering there messages via lightspeed, dumb. Seeming to imply that Arya and Sansa have barely talked for weeks, yes dumb.

It used to be such an intelligent show and it's hard not to be disappointed by what is happening even though it's entertaining. 

I guess John is the new Rick Grimes


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

They need some valaryn steel armor for those dragons. Stat


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

wprager said:


> More googly eyes.


She's ready for 6-8 inches of Snow.

--Carlos V.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

This episode was a mixture of LotR and TWD. I enjoyed it, but it wasn't the same. I agree with the earlier post about a lot of dumb stuff going on.

What was with the invitation to KL? Is that just Jamie carrying out Tyrion's request for a meeting and greet to show off the walker/growler?


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## rahnbo (Sep 12, 2010)

cbrrider said:


> Isn't Drogon, sitting on the ground, an easier ice spear target than a flying Viserion? Or is the Night King just showing off his uncanny Olympian javelin throwing skills?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Unbeliever said:


> She's ready for 6-8 inches of Snow.
> 
> --Carlos V.


Lol!

She said something to him followed by long gazes. I couldn't make out what she said. Anyone?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Day-um! Great episode!

Arya is creepy.

The Night King just happens to have a couple hundred yards of really thick iron chains with him?

Jon should have been a dead popsicle. I'm happy that he survived but Benjen teleporting in from nowhere was a little hard to swallow. That and John surfacing right where his sword was.

My guess is that when Dany finally parleys with Cersei, she'll say something like "Look, I'll whup your ass later but we've got a much bigger problem."

Arya and Sansa need to have a long talk.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Was it LF talking to Sansa, or Arya? Was the invite to KL from Cersei, or Arya?

The mystical aspect of GoT has always been my least favorite part, sadly I found myself losing interest during the show last night.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

What's the deal with all the flaming swords? Was that magic?

I spent the first 30-35 minutes thinking "Man, this is one talky episode." When stuff finally happened, it really started happening.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> The Night King just happens to have a couple hundred yards of really thick iron chains with him?


Well, of course! What kind of leader of the army of the undead would he be if he wasn't prepared to dredge the body of a dead dragon from a frozen lake in order to turn it into a zombie?!?

Boy, would his face turn red if he forgot the chains! His wights would never let him forget it!


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> What's the deal with all the flaming swords? Was that magic?


I think so. I didn't catch how the first round caught fire but one of the subsequent times the Lord of Light follower ran his hand down it and it caught fire.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Robin said:


> I think so. I didn't catch how the first round caught fire but one of the subsequent times the Lord of Light follower ran his hand down it and it caught fire.


Wasn't there a conversation about this in an earlier season, where they said something about the trick he uses to light the sword makes it more brittle, so it scares the crap out of people but isn't terribly useful in an actual fight? My vague recollection is the implication was that it's a mechanical trick...


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

I'm so glad this finally aired. Having seen it mid week unable to talk much was making me crazy. I have nobody around me to chat with about this show either which makes it worse.

I was shocked at how Viserion's death affected me. I found myself covering my mouth as the blood was flowing and he was going down and I was saying "oh no oh no oh no!" and then watching him go into the water I honestly felt sick. I think that was the most reaction I've had over any death on this show to date. Didn't expect that. Didn't think I was that invested in her dragons honestly. That's not something I'll be watching again though.

I also loved the banter from all the guys in the beginning and Tormund always delivers on the entertainment value. I was yelling for them to save him and I think I'd have been angry if he died.

I was also confused at who was being killed this episode. I rewatched the end of last week after this and did not notice any red shirts so it was confusing but they clearly must have had extras with them since the only person of our gang that died was Thoros.

I don't get the raven from KL either. Who sent it and why would anyone respond or go? If it was LF I really don't get his game. Was he trying to get Sansa to leave so he could deal with Arya? If so why would he attempt to send her back to KL of all places? So I don't think it was him. I hope we figure that out or it is clearer when I watch again.

The part with Jon and Dany should be sweet but it creeps me knowing they are related. I'd rather see her with Jorah. *sigh* Always with the love story even in a fantasy show, it's a bit annoying if I'm honest. But I've seen it coming so I wasn't surprised.

I have more to say but I'll stop here for now!


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Was it the Night King that re-animated Viserion or just some RWW (random white walker)? 

Was the one Jorah pointed to the NK? If so, I agree with him. Take out the boss and you probably have little left.

And if you extrapolate that a little further, just find the little prick child of the forest who created the first WW and kill him.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

wprager said:


> Was it the Night King that re-animated Viserion or just some RWW (random white walker)?
> 
> Was the one Jorah pointed to the NK? If so, I agree with him. Take out the boss and you probably have little left.
> 
> And if you extrapolate that a little further, just find the little prick child of the forest who created the first WW and kill him.


It was definitely the NK that re-animated him. And yes, I think Jorah pointed in his direction with the other WW to kill but they didn't even try because they didn't want to lose their wight they had captured.

I think that child of the forest already died saving Bran (same time Summer and Hodor died) or am I wrong??


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> The part with Jon and Dany should be sweet but it creeps me knowing they are related. I'd rather see her with Jorah. *sigh* Always with the love story even in a fantasy show, it's a bit annoying if I'm honest. But I've seen it coming so I wasn't surprised.


I'm wondering if Dany could have children by another Targarian. Maybe Dany and Jons kid ends up on the throne, and Tyrion foreshadowed it.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> Day-um! Great episode!
> 
> Arya is creepy.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing the Night King went back some time later with the chains. The way they do time on the show can be confusing. For example we got confirmation that Jon Snow has been gone for weeks but in our time, only a couple of episodes.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I don't remember much of the Faceless Men and Arya's bag o' faces. Are the faces in the bag generic faces that she can somehow "mold" to be other people or are they actual faces and she can only look like the dead person? Did the faces in the bag belong to people I should remember or recognize? She's like 4'2". How in the world could she plausibly imitate Sansa?

The way he threw that ice spear, the Night King should try out for quarterback at Zombie A&M.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

SullyND said:


> I'm wondering if Dany could have children by another Targarian. Maybe Dany and Jons kid ends up on the throne, and Tyrion foreshadowed it.


i agree, there's been too much talk of her not being able to have children for dany not to become pregnant.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

I really enjoyed the banter between all of the different characters on the walk beyond the wall. What a motley crew. People from all different parts of the story. And I imagine we are going to see more and more.

As for this being shown earlier via magic means before last night. I know some of you said you watched it during the week. To me, it feels really wrong to watch it ahead of schedule. By doing so, you enable the hackers. Please don't do this.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't remember much of the Faceless Men and Arya's bag o' faces. Are the faces in the bag generic faces that she can somehow "mold" to be other people or are they actual faces and she can only look like the dead person? Did the faces in the bag belong to people I should remember or recognize? She's like 4'2". How in the world could she plausibly imitate Sansa?


I'm pretty certain she can only wear the face of someone dead so like she couldn't have pretended to be LF with Sansa because he's alive unless she killed him and we don't know. Pretty sure one Sansa pulled out was the face of Walder Frey.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

cheesesteak said:


> I don't remember much of the Faceless Men and Arya's bag o' faces. Are the faces in the bag generic faces that she can somehow "mold" to be other people or are they actual faces and she can only look like the dead person? Did the faces in the bag belong to people I should remember or recognize? She's like 4'2". How in the world could she plausibly imitate Sansa?
> 
> The way he threw that ice spear, the Night King should try out for quarterback at Zombie A&M.


One face we definitely saw was Walder Frey. The others, not sure. Could be other Freys. Could be random people.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Steveknj said:


> As for this being shown earlier via magic means before last night. I know some of you said you watched it during the week. To me, it feels really wrong to watch it ahead of schedule. By doing so, you enable the hackers. Please don't do this.


I wasn't intending to watch the leaked version, however I spend a lot of time on Tumblr and saw a few gifs from the episode so before I was spoiled completely, I downloaded and watched it. Nothing else I could do, I wasn't going to stay off Tumblr for 5 days and people can't tag their **** correctly.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

photoshopgrl said:


> she couldn't have pretended to be LF with Sansa because he's alive


Unless...



photoshopgrl said:


> unless she killed him and we don't know.





photoshopgrl said:


> Pretty sure one Sansa pulled out was the face of Walder Frey.


Agreed... I'm pretty sure one of them was Frey.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Steveknj said:


> As for this being shown earlier via magic means before last night. I know some of you said you watched it during the week. To me, it feels really wrong to watch it ahead of schedule. By doing so, you enable the hackers. Please don't do this.


Sorry, but this one is on HBO and not the hackers. HBO aired it early by mistake.
http://nypost.com/2017/08/16/hbo-accidentally-airs-new-game-of-thrones-episode-four-days-early/

As for the episode - it had me on the edge of my seat. Only this time I was sure Jon was going to live so it really took some of the suspense from it. Like, why bring him back for him to die there? How come the dead guy they captured didn't dissolve when they killed his leader?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> One face we definitely saw was Walder Frey. The others, not sure. Could be other Freys. Could be random people.


And when she was Walder it basically confirmed that whatever magic the faces use, it's all-encompassing...she becomes (or at least creates the illusion of being) taller. So if she killed Sansa and wore her face, then she would look like she was Sansa's height.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Steveknj said:


> By doing so, you enable the hackers. Please don't do this.


I haven't/won't watch early (would seem like opening Christmas presents on 12/20, just not the same), but a couple of the leaks have been HBO International issues and not truly hacks, right?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

nickels said:


> How come the dead guy they captured didn't dissolve when they killed his leader?


Because the WW Jon killed wasn't the one that turned him.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> As for this being shown earlier via magic means before last night. I know some of you said you watched it during the week. To me, it feels really wrong to watch it ahead of schedule. By doing so, you enable the hackers. Please don't do this.


Your theory is that if hackers release an early copy of GoT but zero people download it, the hackers will be so despondent that they'll give up hacking?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

when you put on a face, you become that person. Walder Frey looked like he was over 6 feet tall and she looked like him. So that is not an issue.

Tormund is great. Clegane is great. The 2 of them having a conversation? PRICELESS.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Sorry to say, but the travel times on this ep are beyond even suspension-of-disbelief. There's no evidence that the men even tried to set up shelters or much of a fire, which means that they would have frozen to death long before the ravens even had time to fly all the way to Dragonstone, nevermind the return trip.

Plus, they're now afraid to kill off characters, which the show never was before. Sure, they offed Thoros, but Tormund should have gone too. Instead they invented a bunch of un-named redshirts to kill off instead, and didn't even introduce us to them first.

All in all, I really think that the quality of this show is suffering without the guidance of GRRM's source material. The first season past the end of the published books was still alright, but maybe that's because they had access to the author's work-in-progress stuff? Now, they're falling back on typical TV tropes and just making stuff up without the attention to detail or realism that the author previously provided.



nickels said:


> Sorry, but this one is on HBO and not the hackers. HBO aired it early by mistake.
> 
> As for the episode - it had me on the edge of my seat. Only this time I was sure Jon was going to live so it really took some of the suspense from it. Like, why bring him back for him to die there? How come the dead guy they captured didn't dissolve when they killed his leader?


Because the plot required it. Because that one was turned by a different WW, presumably.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I wonder why the NK just didn't spear the gang on the rock. He seems pretty handy with that thing.

Also, it would seem like the army of the dead is less than a day's march from the wall.

Also, winter continues to disappear. Only when it was convenient for the plot did blizzard conditions appear for the bear. And it's still light flurries in Winterfell and hot and sunny seemingly every where else.

I do think Tyrion has given rotten advice and not anticipated his siblings moves.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> Your theory is that if hackers release an early copy of GoT but zero people download it, the hackers will be so despondent that they'll give up hacking?


Perhaps. Even if not, it feels dirty to me. By using that logic, if someone steals a bunch of TVs and sells them on the back of a truck, is it ok for you to buy them? Of course not. That's the same thing here. You're essentially "stealing" copyrighted material. Goes to watching Torrents too. But that's another discussion.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

wprager said:


> What was with the invitation to KL? Is that just Jamie carrying out Tyrion's request for a meeting and greet to show off the walker/growler?


Cersei indicated she agreed it might be time for a meeting in the last episode. Same scene as the pregnancy announcement.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I wonder why the NK just didn't spear the gang on the rock. He seems pretty handy with that thing.
> 
> Also, it would seem like the army of the dead is less than a day's march from the wall.
> 
> ...


One correction: they are less than day's RUN from the wall 

Also, it seems like the storm follows the NK and his gang of merry dead men, so the blizzard made sense...


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

ClutchBrake said:


> Cersei indicated she agreed it might be time for a meeting in the last episode. Same scene as the pregnancy announcement.


yes, cersie needs face time to probe for weaknesses, and a little delay for more time to plot dany's destruction.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Steveknj said:


> Perhaps. Even if not, it feels dirty to me. By using that logic, if someone steals a bunch of TVs and sells them on the back of a truck, is it ok for you to buy them? Of course not. That's the same thing here. You're essentially "stealing" copyrighted material. Goes to watching Torrents too. But that's another discussion.


This is a discussion about digital goods though, not physical goods. HBO's hack (was this episode hacked? I though some overseas affiliate/partner accidentally released it). But anyway, assuming it was a hack, HBO had the original version of the episode before and after the hack. They just aired the original last night, in fact. So it's not close to being equivalent to stealing TVs off the back of a truck.

And if HBO subscribers like presumably all of us watch an early leaked/hacked copy, HBO still has the same money from us they'd have without the hack, right?


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

I thought this was a great episode. 

I am now wondering if the other 2 dragons will be able to tell the zombie dragon is a zombie.


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## Boot (Mar 15, 2000)

BrettStah said:


> And if HBO subscribers like presumably all of us watch an early leaked/hacked copy, HBO still has the same money from us they'd have without the hack, right?


If enough people come to depend on leaked episodes instead of subscribing to HBO, they most definitely lose money.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Cainebj said:


> I thought this was a great episode.
> 
> I am now wondering if the other 2 dragons will be able to tell the zombie dragon is a zombie.


I think they'll most definitely know, the question is will they want or be able to even attempt to kill him? I really don't want to see dragons fighting each other.


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## Steveknj (Mar 10, 2003)

BrettStah said:


> This is a discussion about digital goods though, not physical goods. HBO's hack (was this episode hacked? I though some overseas affiliate/partner accidentally released it). But anyway, assuming it was a hack, HBO had the original version of the episode before and after the hack. They just aired the original last night, in fact. So it's not close to being equivalent to stealing TVs off the back of a truck.
> 
> And if HBO subscribers like presumably all of us watch an early leaked/hacked copy, HBO still has the same money from us they'd have without the hack, right?


Why is "digital" any different than physical goods? You essentially "bought" HBO's goods, and they make these goods available at certain times. Those of you who may have watched the leak, how was it available? Was it available through an HBO app? Through HBO On Demand? Through HBO channels? I doubt it. It was gotten from a stream that you weren't entitled to. You didn't "pay" HBO to get i that way. It's stealing. When you buy HBO it doesn't entitle you to watch their content by any means available. It doesn't entitle you to watch it before it's supposed to air (unless they leaked it to YOUR available content provider, then it's THEIR fault.)

Lets say you intend to pay for a stream of the latest Star Wars movie from Vudu, but it was leaked a week ahead of time somewhere else. So now you watched the leak, and then after you paid for Vudu? Does that make it legal? Or is this just your way of justifying what you did?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

wprager said:


> What was with the invitation to KL?


Presumably it was an invite to meet with Dany and Cersei, but because of the timing I'm really suspicious whether the raven message was even legit vs forged by Littlefinger to try and draw Brienne away.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> She said something to him followed by long gazes. I couldn't make out what she said. Anyone?


Assuming you had trouble understanding the same line I did....Jon called her queen, she said what about your people, he said they will come to see her the same way he has, and then the line that was hard to hear was Dany saying "I hope I deserve it" and Jon said "you do".



photoshopgrl said:


> I was shocked at how Viserion's death affected me. I found myself covering my mouth as the blood was flowing and he was going down and I was saying "oh no oh no oh no!" and then watching him go into the water I honestly felt sick. I think that was the most reaction I've had over any death on this show to date.


Same here. I was quite upset, but not as upset as my 7 year old daughter. She absolutely LOVES dragons. She cried.



photoshopgrl said:


> I was also confused at who was being killed this episode. I rewatched the end of last week after this and did not notice any red shirts so it was confusing but they clearly must have had extras with them since the only person of our gang that died was Thoros.


I posted a screenshot in last weeks episode thread. At the end, we see the 7 main guys walk out the gate, and then behind them you get a brief (about 1/4 second) glimpse of 6 or so other guys behind them pulling a sled. I don't know whether those guys were wildlings or brotherhood guys. I'm presuming botherhood, since they had more that look than a wildling look, and earlier this season we saw there were about 10 guys total in Beric's group.



wprager said:


> Was the one Jorah pointed to the NK? If so, I agree with him. Take out the boss and you probably have little left.


It was the NK, but the one who pointed was Beric, not Jorah. Jon and Jorah had the conversation about why the wights died when they killed the WW, Jorah said maybe we can just kill all the WWs, Jon said no our only hope is Dany, then Beric said "there is another option...we can kill him" and pointed to the NK.



SullyND said:


> I'm wondering if Dany could have children by another Targarian. Maybe Dany and Jons kid ends up on the throne, and Tyrion foreshadowed it.


I don't even believe in the whole thing about her not being able to have kids. The first baby could've been a curse by the witch. Or since Dany is fire resistant and the first baby was a pre-term labor, it could be that the dragon scaled baby was not yet fully developed and that Dany looked like that at one stage of her development and is why shes now fire resistant.



cheesesteak said:


> I don't remember much of the Faceless Men and Arya's bag o' faces. Are the faces in the bag generic faces that she can somehow "mold" to be other people or are they actual faces and she can only look like the dead person? Did the faces in the bag belong to people I should remember or recognize? She's like 4'2". How in the world could she plausibly imitate Sansa?


The faces are not generic. Each face lets you be that one specific person (which is why in Bravos they had a whole hall full of faces). And it's already been discussed that theres a bit of magic involved which lets the person wearing the face turn entirely into that person (Rather than just being themself with a mask). And if I'm not mistaken, I thought one of the faces in that bag was Walder Frey.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Can we please skip the debate on the hacked/leaked issue?

please?


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

Anubys said:


> Can we please skip the debate on the hacked/leaked issue?
> 
> please?


Yeah, will do...


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## Boot (Mar 15, 2000)

If the WWs animate the wights, and control their actions, why would they bother making the captured wight struggle under the hood? It's just one out of thousands, and not very useful right now. And if the wight is being brought back as proof, why wouldn't they just stop animating that wight? 

Do the WWs see through the eyes (or eye sockets, as the case may be) of their wights? Won't they be able to see King's Landing now?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Anubys said:


> Can we please skip the debate on the hacked/leaked issue?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/899490340863791104
(Sorry, couldn't help it)


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## gossamer88 (Jul 27, 2005)

I feel Viserion was an easier target since he was not looking and did not see it coming. Drogon probably woulda just swapped it with his tail. That's what I choose to believe and I'm sticking by it. Now if someone can explain the chain, I'd be even more in denial


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Steveknj said:


> I really enjoyed the banter between all of the different characters on the walk beyond the wall. What a motley crew. People from all different parts of the story. And I imagine we are going to see more and more.


They were like GoT's version of The Expendables.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

gossamer88 said:


> I feel Viserion was an easier target since he was not looking and did not see it coming. Drogon probably woulda just swapped it with his tail. That's what I choose to believe and I'm sticking by it. Now if someone can explain the chain, I'd be even more in denial


This show is skipping lots of boring dead time - such as the Night King sending some minions back to wherever they keep their dragon tow chains.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I have no problem whatsoever with the accelerated timeline. More action, less "Meanwhile, back in the middle of nowhere, our heroes are still trudging night and day, telling dirty jokes," Maybe, instead they can explain why nobody wears a hat in freezing weather.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I'm betting the actors were a bit chilly without head gear!


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> Maybe Jon survived because he has some extra protection against ice like Dany does against fire.


I like this proposition. Dany is fire and Jon is ice. We have seen Jon get burned but maybe he does ok with ice.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

gossamer88 said:


> I feel Viserion was an easier target since he was not looking and did not see it coming. Drogon probably woulda just swapped it with his tail. That's what I choose to believe and I'm sticking by it.


drogon had no troubles banking his turn in flight in order to avoid the second ice spear headed his way, once he'd watched viserion's death...them dragons is smart.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

gossamer88 said:


> I feel Viserion was an easier target since he was not looking and did not see it coming. Drogon probably woulda just swapped it with his tail. That's what I choose to believe and I'm sticking by it. Now if someone can explain the chain, I'd be even more in denial


He was also actively destroying the wight army with fire. Don't forget the NK did attempt on Drogon when they took off. If you look back at the scene you can see the WW getting another spear to hand him when Jon starts yelling for Dany to go.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Maybe, instead they can explain why nobody wears a hat in freezing weather.


This drives me crazy. Early on the Wildlings all had big furry hoods which was an entertaining difference between them and the Night's Watch. The Night's Watch think they're so much better than the Wildlings but only one of them has the sense to keep their heads covered. But now Tormund never wears one. I can't even tell if he has one. Although I don't remember if he, personally, ever wore one.

Back when someone had some sense:


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> This drives me crazy. Early on the Wildlings all had big furry hoods which was an entertaining difference between them and the Night's Watch. The Night's Watch think they're so much better than the Wildlings but only one of them has the sense to keep their heads covered. But now Tormund never wears one. I can't even tell if he has one. Although I don't remember if he, personally, ever wore one.


Jon spent too much time with the Wildlings and now he won't bend the knee. Meanwhile Tormund spent too much time with the Nights Watch and now he won't wear the hood.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

The White Walkers can wake the dead and live in the ice. I wouldn't be at all surprised and bothered if they can make ice spears on demand.

I was bothered by:

1. Predictable deaths and non-deaths. Oh hey, all the important people made it.
2. Benjin just being in the right place at the right time. Yikes that was lame.
3. Arya and Sansa crap
4. A white walker can throw an ice spear better than a scorpion.

Loved the Magnificent Seven banter on the journey North. That was fun.

I like Dany falling for Jon. Totes Adorbs!!!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

JohnB1000 said:


> I still enjoy watching but the show has become incredibly dumb. The whole plan to go beyond the wall was dumb, not taking dragons, dumb. Ravens delivering there messages via lightspeed, dumb. Seeming to imply that Arya and Sansa have barely talked for weeks, yes dumb.
> 
> It used to be such an intelligent show and it's hard not to be disappointed by what is happening even though it's entertaining.
> 
> I guess John is the new Rick Grimes


I agree. It's sinking.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

uncdrew said:


> I was bothered by...Benjin just being in the right place at the right time...


while i see your point, and agree the "just in the nick of time" appearance was very convenient to the scene, it didn't bother me so much as it had already been set up last season, he had already told bran it was one of the reasons he was sticking around north of the wall (or did i misremember that scene entirely? ).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Agreed bout Benjin. Of all the dumb things in the episode, this wasn't one of them. If makes sense that he would be shadowing the Night King and his army. What else would he be doing? And when the time came for him to help, he did.

Anyone else imagine a thought balloon on top of Dany's head in the ship screaming "Yes, yes, take his clothes off! take it all off!"?


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

LordKronos said:


> Same here. I was quite upset, but not as upset as my 7 year old daughter. She absolutely LOVES dragons. She cried.


You let a 7 year old watch this show? 
*sorry for another thread distraction


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Is it me, or is Dany drinking way too much lately?

And what's up with her hair?!?


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## Family (Jul 23, 2001)

Unless someone is not who they appear to be, the Sansa/Arya conflict is stupid.


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## ADG (Aug 20, 2003)

nickels said:


> *sorry for another thread distraction


THANK YOU for saying that (and not as relates to YOUR post)


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

nickels said:


> You let a 7 year old watch this show?


Except for select scenes, yes. She's not bothered by the violence at all, and she loves all the dragon stuff. Different kids handle things at different ages. I grew up with 6 older brothers, so I was exposed to all sorts of stuff by her age. The important thing is to watch with them (not let them watch on their own), tailor what you watch to what they can handle, and to have conversations about what you watch.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

I wouldn't want to watch GoT with my middle aged sisters let alone a 7 year old.


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## gweempose (Mar 23, 2003)

The Night King must have trained under Lamar from Revenge of the Nerds! :grinning:


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

SullyND said:


> I'm wondering if Dany could have children by another Targarian. Maybe Dany and Jons kid ends up on the throne, and Tyrion foreshadowed it.


Of course Dany can have more kids. So can Cersie. Prophecies and Oracles are all hogwash.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> I'm guessing the Night King went back some time later with the chains. The way they do time on the show can be confusing. For example we got confirmation that Jon Snow has been gone for weeks but in our time, only a couple of episodes.


Yup.

If the WWs didn't stop for the Dragon they'd be at the wall quick. Gendry got there fast, Jon on horse wasn't long behind. WWs can stop and save a dragon. Winter's been coming for a long time. An extra week ain't no thang.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

uncdrew said:


> Yup.
> 
> If the WWs didn't stop for the Dragon they'd be at the wall quick. Gendry got there fast, Jon on horse wasn't long behind. WWs can stop and save a dragon. Winter's been coming for a long time. An extra week ain't no thang.


i also attribute their closeness to the wall as explaining the lack of hats...they're just out for a short stroll...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think they'll most definitely know, the question is will they want or be able to even attempt to kill him? I really don't want to see dragons fighting each other.


We will see that. For sure.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> Yup.
> 
> If the WWs didn't stop for the Dragon they'd be at the wall quick. Gendry got there fast, Jon on horse wasn't long behind. WWs can stop and save a dragon. Winter's been coming for a long time. An extra week ain't no thang.


Of course, the fact that while they were trapped on that island, the Watch sent a raven to Dragonstone (a thousand miles), then Dany was able to fly north, and then search the land north of the wall and find Jon & Co., might be a little harder to explain...

All of which seemed to happen overnight...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, the fact that while they were trapped on that island, the Watch sent a raven to Dragonstone (a thousand miles), then Dany was able to fly north, and then search the land north of the wall and find Jon & Co., might be a little harder to explain...
> 
> All of which seemed to happen overnight...


It is odd.

Let's say that Jon knows the Dragons can get there in 5 hours, the Raven takes 20 hours, Gendry needed 10 hours.

Still, no real Plan B?

The entire excursion just seemed so bad and poorly thought out. I wanted Dany to go, but knew it would cost her a dragon.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Maybe Dany didn't wait for the raven, but has a telepathic link to Jon, similar to Luke and Leia. See what I did, there?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, the fact that while they were trapped on that island, the Watch sent a raven to Dragonstone (a thousand miles), then Dany was able to fly north, and then search the land north of the wall and find Jon & Co., might be a little harder to explain...
> 
> All of which seemed to happen overnight...


I haven't been too much bothered by the fast pace of some of the event because it's very clear we just see things non-linearly: gaps are condensed and different parties timelines aren't always aligned. And of course we don't always want to see all the non-events that happen between now and then, so it's not a bad thing.

But yes, this is probably the most apparent case of where the timeline failed. It really did appear as just overnight, and given conditions it's hard to believe they could have survived too many nights like that out there. But if I'm wrong, and they were actually out there several nights, then I'm even more upset that they cut it all out, because if there's one thing I could enjoy watching, it's day after day of Tormund talking.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, the fact that while they were trapped on that island, the Watch sent a raven to Dragonstone (a thousand miles), then Dany was able to fly north, and then search the land north of the wall and find Jon & Co., might be a little harder to explain...
> 
> All of which seemed to happen overnight...


I think this might answer the question.


Spoiler





__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252Ffreefolk%252Fcomments%252F6u75t3%252F


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

Dany must have been freezing her ass off riding a fast moving dragon in that cold.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Boot said:


> If enough people come to depend on leaked episodes instead of subscribing to HBO, they most definitely lose money.


GoT is the most pirated show of all time, yet it's also incredibly successful for HBO, so there's zero evidence that a show being pirated means lost money for the producers. In fact, it makes the show more popular and probably leads to more legit subscribers.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Uh, didn't Jefe WW find evidence of a campfire?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Uh, didn't Jefe WW find evidence of a campfire?


Yes, but they set that on purpose to create a diversion so they could all jump out and attack. It wasn't a campfire that the Snowy Seven had been sitting around prior to spotting the WWs.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Yes, but they set that on purpose to create a diversion so they could all jump out and attack. It wasn't a campfire that the Snowy Seven had been sitting around prior to spotting the WWs.


Ah, I missed that. Seems it worked really well.


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## fmowry (Apr 30, 2002)

I can't get past the whole lame island thing and the majority of the fighting was ridiculous. If the WWs are smart enough not to all swarm over the frozen pond to our merry men at the same time and sink, why didn't they just send a few WW over to attack spaced out? Or even with the huge number of WW, just keep walking toward the island until the pond is filled up with WW, then walk over them.

And yeah, having the mile long chain at all was idiotic. They certainly couldn't find a chain like that, and it's not like 1000 WW can fire up a bunch of kilns and make a bunch of chain links and add them together. It's fire!

The group banter and the various dialogue good though.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

Bridgekeeper: "WHAT is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow raven?"

GoT Producers: "What? We don't know thaaaaaaaaaaat!"


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## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> I like this proposition. Dany is fire and Jon is ice. We have seen Jon get burned but maybe he does ok with ice.


I was thinking along these same lines.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

fmowry said:


> I can't get past the whole lame island thing and the majority of the fighting was ridiculous. *If the WWs are smart enough not to all swarm over the frozen pond to our merry men at the same time and sink, why didn't they just send a few WW over to attack spaced out?* Or even with the huge number of WW, just keep walking toward the island until the pond is filled up with WW, then walk over them.


Not sure what you mean here. The WWs were all swarming over the frozen lake at the same time, until the ice cracked and many of them fell in. Then they waited for the ice to re-freeze before swarming again.

Also, I don't understand people complaining about the chain. We're talking about mythical, magical creatures who raise the dead and get them to fight. Is it really that much of a stretch to believe they also can magically make a chain appear?


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Did nobody else get the impression the Night King knew how it would play out? I thought it was a trap, he knew the dragons would come and had the chain ready.

Maybe he's either a greenseer or can utilise his link with Bran?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Raisltin Majere said:


> Did nobody else get the impression the Night King knew how it would play out? I thought it was a trap, he knew the dragons would come and had the chain ready.
> 
> Maybe he's either a greenseer or can utilise his link with Bran?


If the Night King knew the dragons were going to arrive, why did he wait until so late in the battle to throw his first ice javelin? And why did he wait again before throwing the second one at Drogon? Seems that someone with foreknowledge of how that whole thing would play out, plus the ability to throw ice javelins like that, should have been able to take out all three dragons, or at least two.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> 2. Benjin just being in the right place at the right time. Yikes that was lame.


The fancy name for this is Deus ex machina. It pops up all over once you start looking for it. Deus Ex Machine moments.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> If the Night King knew the dragons were going to arrive, why did he wait until so late in the battle to throw his first ice javelin? And why did he wait again before throwing the second one at Drogon? Seems that someone with foreknowledge of how that whole thing would play out, plus the ability to throw ice javelins like that, should have been able to take out all three dragons, or at least two.


I thought the same thing. I also thought that we're led to believe that these dragons are the be-all, end-all of offensive weapons. Everyone is terrified of them. Except every time they're brought into battle the attacked party knows they're coming and has a dragon killing weapon at the ready.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> If the Night King knew the dragons were going to arrive, why did he wait until so late in the battle to throw his first ice javelin? And why did he wait again before throwing the second one at Drogon? Seems that someone with foreknowledge of how that whole thing would play out, plus the ability to throw ice javelins like that, should have been able to take out all three dragons, or at least two.


Perhaps he wanted to evaluate them. He has a seemingly countless army at his disposal. It was no big deal to sacrifice some of them to size up the opposition before acting.



pendragn said:


> I thought the same thing. I also thought that we're led to believe that these dragons are the be-all, end-all of offensive weapons. Everyone is terrified of them. Except every time they're brought into battle the attacked party knows they're coming and has a dragon killing weapon at the ready.


Not really. Nobody in Essos was prepared for the Dragons. The white walkers were only "prepared" in that their weapons were magic. Remember, those same icicle weapons would shatter a (non-valyrian-steel) sword with a single touch. And of course the Lannisters are only prepared because hundreds of years ago they were conquered by dragons. They've known about these 3 dragons for years, so of course they've been planning for their return.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

It would have had more impact if Drogon had been the one to die. He's clearly Dani's favorite. Viserion and Rhaegal are redshirts. Hell, they were locked away in a dungeon for a couple of seasons, so it's not like they're important to the story.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> Not really. Nobody in Essos was prepared for the Dragons.


True. I had forgotten about their use in Essos. Though I really only care about their use in trying to get the Iron Throne, but your point stands.



LordKronos said:


> The white walkers were only "prepared" in that their weapons were magic. Remember, those same icicle weapons would shatter a (non-valyrian-steel) sword with a single touch.


True, and let's not forget that of all the parties involved in this fight, the Night King is the only one that's actually done it before. Neither Jon or Dany know what they're up against. He does, and he fought it to a stalemate once before. He's obviously learned from his previous efforts.



LordKronos said:


> And of course the Lannisters are only prepared because hundreds of years ago they were conquered by dragons. They've known about these 3 dragons for years, so of course they've been planning for their return.


True.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

fmowry said:


> I can't get past the whole lame island thing and the majority of the fighting was ridiculous. If the WWs are smart enough not to all swarm over the frozen pond to our merry men at the same time and sink, why didn't they just send a few WW over to attack spaced out? Or even with the huge number of WW, just keep walking toward the island until the pond is filled up with WW, then walk over them.


Why did they even need to wait for the lake to refreeze? It's not like they can drown or are affected by cold. They could have either swum out to the island or walked across on the bottom.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> Why did they even need to wait for the lake to refreeze? It's not like they can drown or are affected by cold. They could have either swum out to the island or walked across on the bottom.


I don't think we know the extent of it, but they are either afraid of water, or it neutralizes them somehow. We've seen it before, most climatically at the end of Hardhome.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

pendragn said:


> I don't think we know the extent of it, but they are either afraid of water, or it neutralizes them somehow. We've seen it before, most climatically at the end of Hardhome.


Except that a couple of them went into the water and came back out again, none the worse for wear, and kept right on fighting.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Shakhari said:


> Except that a couple of them went into the water and came back out again, none the worse for wear, and kept right on fighting.


I'm not sure what else to say.  I feel it's been well established that the Wights are stopped by water for whatever reason.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I don't think the water kills them or anything but they don't seem to like it. It did stop them at Hardhome and here.


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

"Fall back!"

To where exactly?


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

I think the issue is they can't swim. Even a person that can't swim can flail around the water and if they get lucky grab onto something nearby. That's all it is is luck the white walkers that came out of the water only did so because they just fell in at that hole and we're already near the edge and got lucky and grabbed on during their flailing. I didn't see any evidence that they were actually swimming


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Odds Bodkins said:


> "Fall back!"
> 
> To where exactly?


That's what I was wondering. They're on a tiny little island. Where are they going to go?


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> I think the issue is they can't swim. Even a person that can't swim can flail around the water and if they get lucky grab onto something nearby. That's all it is is luck the white walkers that came out of the water only did so because they just fell in at that hole and we're already near the edge and got lucky and grabbed on during their flailing. I didn't see any evidence that they were actually swimming


Even if they can't swim, they also can't drown (since they don't breathe). So they could just walk along the bottom, or bump along under the ice sheet until they got to the island. At that point, it would take a number of zombies pushing and/or hacking on the ice from below to break through, but near the shore where they have sufficient leverage, it should be possible.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

NorthAlabama said:


> i also attribute their closeness to the wall as explaining the lack of hats...they're just out for a short stroll...


Seems to me that they started out last Sunday and were still out there yesterday.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

dcheesi said:


> Even if they can't swim, they also can't drown (since they don't breathe). So they could just walk along the bottom, or bump along under the ice sheet until they got to the island. At that point, it would take a number of zombies pushing and/or hacking on the ice from below to break through, but near the shore where they have sufficient leverage, it should be possible.


You're assuming they are heavy enough to sink to the bottom so they can walk and can swim up when they want to.


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## DUSlider (Apr 29, 2005)

I think you're all trying to apply info about zombies and walking dead from other shows where it doesn't necessarily apply to the "magic" of Game of Thrones and the Wights. To me there was an effective moat around the island, like a moat around a castle. I'm going to assume the Wights, or White Walkers, knew the water would refreeze eventually. The Wights being controlled by the White Walkers seem smarter than your average "The Walking Dead zombie."

The Hound throwing the rock across the ice alerted the Wights standing there (and thus White Walkers controlling them) that the water had frozen over. The Wight Walkers didn't know it was immediately safe to cross, so only a few were sent at first. Who knows how long they would have stood there waiting had The Hound not been an idiot. Not to mention he pretty much stood there with his thumb up his ass while the bear was chomping on Thoros.

It does seem like the Knight King had "foreseen" what was going to happen, like he was waiting for the dragons to show up.

The whole thing between Arya and Sansa annoys me. I don't believe the scroll calling for Sansa to come to Kings Landing was really sent from Cersei. I'm not seeing Little Fingers angle for sending Brienne away (I'd assume he would know that Sansa would never leave). He doesn't want Arya to kill Sansa, because he wants to be with Sansa. Unless he is positioning himself to be the hero that swoops in to save Sansa from Arya to make Sansa change her feelings about him.

I have a hard time believing Arya would actually kill Sansa. Though wouldn't it be a sick twist if she did, unbeknown to Little Finger, take Sansa's spot as Lady of the north to get Revenge on Cersei AND Little Finger by killing them both?


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Game of Thrones: Why Everyone on the Set Hated that Zombie Polar Bear


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Odds Bodkins said:


> "Fall back!"
> 
> To where exactly?


That was obviously an unfortunate editing decision. Without a doubt when they release the director's cut on DVD we'll see what the actual line was supposed to be:

"Fall back 5 yards!!"


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

NorthAlabama said:


> drogon had no troubles banking his turn in flight in order to avoid the second ice spear headed his way, once he'd watched viserion's death...them dragons is smart.


And he might have learned to look out for, and avoid, sharp objects coming up from the ground after getting scorpioned a couple episodes ago. That _might_ have been enough for him to notice and attempt to avoid even if he'd been the first dragon targeted by the NK.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I hate when people don't act like "normal" people. That entire argument between Sansa and Arya is so stupid and convoluted...people just don't talk like that...badly written dialogue, people acting strangely and saying things that don't make sense except if your goal is to prolong the argument and to NOT make your point.

Really terrible. I'm watching it again right now and it's even worse the second time around.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

Anubys said:


> I hate when people don't act like "normal" people. That entire argument between Sansa and Arya is so stupid and convoluted...people just don't talk like that...badly written dialogue, people acting strangely and saying things that don't make sense except if your goal is to prolong the argument and to NOT make your point.
> 
> Really terrible. I'm watching it again right now and it's even worse the second time around.


i'm not expecting much of anything more to come from that conversation, i think it was either a way to get brienne to kings landing, or a distraction for another twist involving littlefinger later on.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

DUSlider said:


> The Hound throwing the rock across the ice alerted the Wights standing there (and thus White Walkers controlling them) that the water had frozen over. The Wight Walkers didn't know it was immediately safe to cross, so only a few were sent at first. Who knows how long they would have stood there waiting had The Hound not been an idiot. *Not to mention he pretty much stood there with his thumb up his ass while the bear was chomping on Thoros.*


The bear (and Thoros' sword) were on fire, and the Hound is deathly afraid of fire. So that's why he just stood there paralyzed rather than helping.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Anubys said:


> I hate when people don't act like "normal" people. That entire argument between Sansa and Arya is so stupid and convoluted...people just don't talk like that...badly written dialogue, people acting strangely and saying things that don't make sense except if your goal is to prolong the argument and to NOT make your point.
> 
> Really terrible. I'm watching it again right now and it's even worse the second time around.


What annoyed me was that Arya has been there a few weeks and it seemed like they have never spoken about what either of them have been up to


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> The bear (and Thoros' sword) were on fire, and the Hound is deathly afraid of fire. So that's why he just stood there paralyzed rather than helping.


It was one thing when he froze at Blackwater and said "F the king". Since then, he managed to fight and defeat Beric despite the flaming sword and it setting The Hounds shield on fire. Now was time for The Hound to show he can finally overcome his fear.

Oh, and speaking of "The Hound", that's another good Tormund line "You're the one they call The Dog".


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

To me The Hound not giving aid to Thoros wasn't about fire; it was about The Hound not being willing to risk himself for someone else. He almost didn't rescue Tormund either. But then he did. Turning point for The Hound, I think.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)




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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

cheesesteak said:


> Game of Thrones: Why Everyone on the Set Hated that Zombie Polar Bear


LMAO. Rory McCann really is The Hound: "I've had people going, 'Oh, when I'm coming towards you, I'm a bear'-no, you're not," McCann added with a laugh. "Your name's Toby."


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Am I blind or once Viserion is killed do we not see Rhaegar again? It's Drogon flying around Eastwatch when Dany is looking out for Jon right? So where's the other? I didn't see him when they took off and the ice spear missed them either.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

You are correct. 

They used the last bit of his budget on a zombie polar bear.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Didn't notice while watching, apparently there's a lot of rumor about Jon's sword's eye opening as he climbed out of the water. Interesting.

Few details like that are random on this show. What do you think it could mean?

Hang on, did Jon Snow's sword come to life on GoT?


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

SoBelle0 said:


> Didn't notice while watching, apparently there's a lot of rumor about Jon's sword's eye opening as he climbed out of the water. Interesting.
> 
> Few details like that are random on this show. What do you think it could mean?
> 
> Hang on, did Jon Snow's sword come to life on GoT?


Oh wow it sure seems like it did!!!


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Just looks like water splashed on it to me.


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## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> Am I blind or once Viserion is killed do we not see Rhaegar again? It's Drogon flying around Eastwatch when Dany is looking out for Jon right? So where's the other? I didn't see him when they took off and the ice spear missed them either.


Rhaegar bolted once Viserion went down. You can see him flying away in that scene. He didn't quite fly "off into the distance" since the camera followed Viserion down, but you can tell from Rhaegar's motion he didn't want to be anywhere near there. I wouldn't blame him.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

Why did they not all return to Draginstone on the dragon, at least the Whight? Or if going to KL, at least get closer.

Honestly the plot holes are so big that they have to be doing it on purpose.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

I keep thinking off (or sometimes reading) things. Why didn't Arya mention to Sansa that Littlefinger stole/hid the note?


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## tivotvaddict (Aug 11, 2005)

Am I the only one that thought Tyrion was going to jump on Rhaeger or Viserion and follow Dany off that cliff into battle? If I was good at posting gifs I'd post that for you. 

tta


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

I think Arya is playing the lying game with Sansa. She said several things that were obvious lies, maybe to see if Sansa calls her fake story out. 

Arya complaining about Sansa serving the Lannisters, but forgetting she once accused Jaquen of the same thing and he reminded her that she was fetching water for the Lannisters and asked her why it was it not ok for him but ok for her. 

Arya saying she wants to wear Sansas pretty dresses, Arya would never want that.

These are the two biggest things but I suspect there are more. I think she is trying to figure out Littlefinger, and whether or not she should kill him.


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

tivotvaddict said:


> Am I the only one that thought Tyrion was going to jump on Rhaeger or Viserion and follow Dany off that cliff into battle? If I was good at posting gifs I'd post that for you.
> 
> tta


I thought so too


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## Dan203 (Apr 17, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> View attachment 30144


They're dead, they can't walk that fast.


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## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Dan203 said:


> They're dead, they can't walk that fast.


Fast Zombies a la World War Z.
Slow Zombies a la George A. Romero.
Plug in as story requires.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

morac said:


> If the dragon can still breathe fire, maybe it can melt the Wall.
> 
> Or the NK can just fly over it on the dragon.


One wonders if a dragon is what they've been waiting for.



DevdogAZ said:


> If the Night King knew the dragons were going to arrive, why did he wait until so late in the battle to throw his first ice javelin? And why did he wait again before throwing the second one at Drogon? Seems that someone with foreknowledge of how that whole thing would play out, plus the ability to throw ice javelins like that, should have been able to take out all three dragons, or at least two.


I don't think he knew exactly how everything would play out, but it's possible he knew that they would be getting a dragon either at this moment or some time in the general future.

It's also possible he needed the wight or someone else on Drogon to make it out alive for some reason.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Of course, the fact that while they were trapped on that island, the Watch sent a raven to Dragonstone (a thousand miles), then Dany was able to fly north, and then search the land north of the wall and find Jon & Co., might be a little harder to explain...


Yeah. I agree with those who think the writers dropped the ball on this one. They should have written a reason for Daenerys to be further north than Dragonstone or found a better place for the group to hide for a longer time before eventually getting trapped on the island.

I was expecting Bran to take control of at least one of the dragons, and fly him up to help them because that was the only thing that made sense to me given the travel times.

It will be interesting to see how much of this story is following George's plan, and how he ends up writing it.

(Maybe that was his deal with HBO, to throw some plot holes in so that people will still want to buy his books after the show is over. )


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> I keep thinking off (or sometimes reading) things. Why didn't Arya mention to Sansa that Littlefinger stole/hid the note?


Because Arya thinks Littlefinger ordered the note found on Sansa's orders to destroy the evidence and protect Sansa. That's why LF specifically said, "Are you sure this is the only copy?" to the guy who delivered it in the previous episode. It was all a ruse to make Arya think he was trying to cover something up and Arya bought it - hook, line, and sinker.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Steveknj said:


> One face we definitely saw was Walder Frey. The others, not sure. Could be other Freys. Could be random people.


I believe the other one was Meryn Trant.



wedgecon said:


> I think Arya is playing the lying game with Sansa. She said several things that were obvious lies, maybe to see if Sansa calls her fake story out.
> 
> Arya complaining about Sansa serving the Lannisters, but forgetting she once accused Jaquen of the same thing and he reminded her that she was fetching water for the Lannisters and asked her why it was it not ok for him but ok for her.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting observation. Beyond wearing pretty dresses, Arya is not interested at all in becoming a Lady. And Sansa would know that. Arya even reminded her of that a couple of times during this episode.

Perhaps her role reversal with Sansa when describing the lying game was her way of telling Sansa, "Things are not what they seem. I am not what I seem."

Here's another interesting factoid about Arya.

Of the 9 named characters who were north of the Wall during this episode, she has hung out with 6 of them:

Jon Snow
Sandor Clegane (The Hound)
Gendry
Thoros of Myr
Beric Dondarrion
Benjen Stark


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DevdogAZ said:


> Because Arya thinks Littlefinger ordered the note found on Sansa's orders to destroy the evidence and protect Sansa. That's why LF specifically said, "Are you sure this is the only copy?" to the guy who delivered it in the previous episode. It was all a ruse to make Arya think he was trying to cover something up and Arya bought it - hook, line, and sinker.


I'm still not entirely convinced that she did...the fact that she was following him around so conspicuously when she could have just worn somebody else's face makes me wonder if _she's_ not playing _him_.


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## getbak (Oct 8, 2004)

It really doesn't matter how fast the white walkers/wights travel because, based on everything we've been told, they can't go south of the Wall until either...

They can get around the Wall
They can get through the Wall
They can bring down the Wall and walk over what is left of it
There is also a magical protection spell that prevents the dead from crossing the Wall, so we'll have to see what happens there.

Perhaps, this was the Night King's plan all along. He realized they can't get south of the Wall without a dragon, so he needed a dragon to come north of the Wall and everything else was a ruse to make that happen.

Now, if Viserion still breathes fire, he can possibly melt the Wall until it either collapses or there's a big enough hole in it to walk through. Or, if Viserion now breathes ice, he can flash freeze the sea near Eastwatch and they can just walk around the Wall.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

JohnB1000 said:


> Why did they not all return to Draginstone on the dragon, at least the Whight? Or if going to KL, at least get closer.


The dragon was overloaded with men, so it just went to the closest 'safe' territory, Eastwatch.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

ct1 said:


> The dragon was overloaded with men, so it just went to the closest 'safe' territory, Eastwatch.


I assumed they were dropping some of them at the wall as it being short staffed was why they were there in the first place.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

ClutchBrake said:


> Just looks like water splashed on it to me.


Probably but it's a cool thought if not.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

If there's magic keeping the NK and his army from getting past the wall then it's not a matter of going around or over it. They need to somehow break that magic right? Is a Dragon enough to do so? Unless the mere fact that the eggs were all but fossilized and then Dany was able to make them hatch is enough magic to allow Viserion now to somehow bring the wall down I'm not sure how this changes anything. I am certain that's the end game here either this season or next. The build up has been too great, so somehow they are getting on the other side of that wall. Jon seems to realize that fact too but I'm not sure why he does? Everyone has said the wall will protect them but because there's 10k dead men vs 5 dead men on the other side why would that change anything in their opinion? (sorry just thinking out loud mostly)


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The Wall is not what it was...since the Westerosi haven't believed in what's coming for decades if not centuries, I doubt they've been following the manufacturers' recommended annual magical maintenance program. It doesn't look to me like they've even taken it to Icy-Lube! If I were on the right side of the Wall and knew what was coming towards it on the wrong side, I would be VERY nervous about its ability to perform as warranted a thousand years ago.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> I believe the other one was Meryn Trant.


That was a bit early on when she killed him. I'm not sure she knew enough about how to remove a face at that time.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

LordKronos said:


> That was a bit early on when she killed him. I'm not sure she knew enough about how to remove a face at that time.


Maybe she didn't but the fact that she used a face to do so might have put him in the room with the rest for her to take later. Whoever it is, had a beard I think, so maybe. I keep re watching that scene but they just don't show that one enough for me to see who I think it could be.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Hodor died for our dance sins:

'Game of Thrones' beloved Hodor will DJ in Philly a day before the season finale


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

If there is a spell keeping the WW/Wight from crossing the wall, I wonder if bringing a wight across the wall doesn't break it.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

wedgecon said:


> I think Arya is playing the lying game with Sansa. She said several things that were obvious lies, maybe to see if Sansa calls her fake story out.
> 
> Arya complaining about Sansa serving the Lannisters, but forgetting she once accused Jaquen of the same thing and he reminded her that she was fetching water for the Lannisters and asked her why it was it not ok for him but ok for her.
> 
> ...


I was hoping Arya and Sansa would hug, then send servants off to bring them ice cream and they'd talk for days. "And then there was the time when I went blind for a few weeks..."

I admit I don't know what's going on with them but it doesn't seem like what would actually happen. I would think their survival, love of family and Winterfell, etc. would have them trusting and confiding in one another more. But I know families are weird.


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## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

However they do it, I have little doubt there won't be an epic scene of all or part of the wall being brought down, and the zombies streaming south.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BitbyBlit said:


> Yeah. I agree with those who think the writers dropped the ball on this one. They should have written a reason for Daenerys to be further north than Dragonstone or found a better place for the group to hide for a longer time before eventually getting trapped on the island.


So Dany got up there really fast we assume. One short flight.

And returned with a bunch of fighters on Drogon's back.

Perhaps she could have taken a half-day and flown Jon and Jerah up to the North, viewed the White Walkers from safe distance, and then returned home. I mean sheesh, you have dragons. Want to go somewhere? Just fly a dragon. Hell, I'd fly a dragon every chance I could. Even just to go get a gallon of milk.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Pretty much anything to do with Sansa has always been the most boring part of GoT for me. Sophie Turner is not a good actress, and that makes her character even less watchable.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

ClutchBrake said:


> Pretty much anything to do with Sansa has always been the most boring part of GoT for me. Sophie Turner is not a good actress, and that makes her character even less watchable.


I haven't loved her story but I think she's a decent actress. Certainly better than the kid playing Bran.


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## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Let's call out what the whole Arya plot for what it is...

It's a poor attempt by the writers to make Arya leave the confines of Winterfell so she can continue on completing her list.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> I haven't loved her story but I think she's a decent actress. Certainly better than the kid playing Bran.


Really seems like they saddled the worst actors with the most bland character personalities. Not a good combination!

I'll give the kid playing Bran a *slight* pass in that I've never seen him in anything else. Sophie Turner was just as bland an actress as Jean Grey in X-Men as Sansa in GoT.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

Where did the Night King get 2 miles of really large chain? There's _nothing_ up there, and they have all that chain?


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

tlc said:


> Where did the Night King get 2 miles of really large chain? There's _nothing_ up there, and they have all that chain?


The wonders of Amazon Prime and same day shipping.

It's amazing to me the dichotomy of opinions on this episode. Many think this is one of the best GoT episodes and just as many think this is the worst and is utter ****e. I'll admit that the action scenes are, for the most part, done really well and make for an exciting show but any episode where the majority of the conversation is about the numerous plot holes and people going to amazing lengths to explain them away certainly can't really be considered a great episode can it?


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

tlc said:


> Where did the Night King get 2 miles of really large chain? There's _nothing_ up there, and they have all that chain?


One of their agents stole it from Kings Landing after Tyrion got done using it to kill Stannis' fleet. Probably hid it under his shirt and ran off with it .


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

tomhorsley said:


> One of their agents stole it from Kings Landing after Tyrion got done using it to kill Stannis' fleet. Probably hid it under his shirt and ran off with it .


So do you mean to say that the White Walker's magical powers also give them the ability to travel between the book and tv show? Or do you mean they somehow managed to venture down south and steal it from Kings Landing BEFORE Stannis arrived, which is why we never saw it on the show?


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I am by no means a superfan. I watch it when it airs, and like the show well enough. And this episode for me was particularly stupid.

- Fall back!
- Supersonic travel by raven and dragons
- The deus ex machina rescue was (a) truly stupid and (b) entirely predictable
- Who would think to answer Cersei's request for a meet and greet? Who would send anyone
- Chains
- A dude can hurl a spear like nobody's business, decides to wait for water to refreeze? And can't that dude freeze water?
- Emelia Clarke is pretty, but the makeup on her these past couple of episodes is weirdly distracting
- Littlefinger continues to twirl his mustache over in dark corners. Dun-dun-dun
- Tyrion is full of lousy advice
- There's a bad actor that can see everything all at once, yet he isn't in this episode and hasn't talked with the King of the North yet

I don't even understand how Cersei is any kind of threat to anyone any more. She's stuck in her castle. Most of her army has to have been wiped out. Set up a small siege force, have one dragon hang out in the area, then mop up the rest of the 7 kingdoms.

The one thing this episode did surprise me over is the zombie dragon. And so I can kind of forgive everything, because a zombie dragon makes the upcoming battles quite a lot more interesting. If the Night King can ride it around, it would seem he is unbeatable. If it breaths ice storms, how cool would that be?


----------



## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> I am by no means a superfan. I watch it when it airs, and like the show well enough. And this episode for me was particularly stupid.
> 
> - Fall back!


I can let that one go, to a degree. IMO he was simply saying "regroup". They were a tiny force fighting overwhelming odds and their only saving grace was something of a geographic advantage. However, they had spread themselves too thin. They needed to be in formation again in order to keep from being picked off too easily one by one. They were still going to die without a deux ex machina moment, but regrouping was still their best bet for survival, short as that time difference might have been.


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> I was shocked at how Viserion's death affected me. I found myself covering my mouth as the blood was flowing and he was going down and I was saying "oh no oh no oh no!" and then watching him go into the water I honestly felt sick. I think that was the most reaction I've had over any death on this show to date. Didn't expect that. Didn't think I was that invested in her dragons honestly. That's not something I'll be watching again though.


Out of all the horrible things we've seen, absolutely nothing in the entire run of the show has bothered me as much as when Dany locked the dragons in the dungeon. That just _killed_ me.



uncdrew said:


> 4. A white walker can throw an ice spear better than a scorpion.


I can give them this one. I mean, he (and presumably his ice spear) are magic, after all.



DevdogAZ said:


> Because Arya thinks Littlefinger ordered the note found on Sansa's orders to destroy the evidence and protect Sansa. That's why LF specifically said, "Are you sure this is the only copy?" to the guy who delivered it in the previous episode. It was all a ruse to make Arya think he was trying to cover something up and Arya bought it - hook, line, and sinker.


I sincerely hope this is not true. Arya just seems too smart to not see through Littlefinger. Granted, he's stealthy, but this is not a particularly sophisticated scheme. Seems to me that even Sansa, who was mightily stupid as a young girl, has wised up enough to at least realize something's up in this scenario. But I will also admit that nothing in this episode makes me think I'm right about any of this. (Although I do like the theory someone posted upthread about Arya playing the lying game with Sansa.)


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

ClutchBrake said:


> I can let that one go, to a degree. IMO he was simply saying "regroup". They were a tiny force fighting overwhelming odds and their only saving grace was something of a geographic advantage. However, they had spread themselves too thin. They needed to be in formation again in order to keep from being picked off too easily one by one. They were still going to die without a deux ex machina moment, but regrouping was still their best bet for survival, short as that time difference might have been.


Wasn't this the point where they were on a chunk of rock, surrounded on all sides by zombies?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Wasn't this the point where they were on a chunk of rock, surrounded on all sides by zombies?


Yes. But the remaining men were spread out and being overwhelmed individually. Fighting in a back-to-back formation, as they were before being spread apart, was their best strategy for a few more seconds of life... which saved their lives.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Remember all those theories back when Arya got stabbed by the Waif? Maybe it was a trap, maybe it was fake blood, maybe this maybe that... turns out it was just bad writing. Here we are again. Everyone trying to make sense of her character acting strange, but in the end it will be the same result: bad writing.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

tlc said:


> Where did the Night King get 2 miles of really large chain? There's _nothing_ up there, and they have all that chain?


It's like the Wonder Twins.

"Form of Flaming Polar Bear!"

"Form of Ice Chains!"


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Just for accuracy's sake, since there's been quite a lot of variation, the dragons are...

Drogon, named for Khal Drogo
Rhaegal, named for Rhaegar Targaryen
Viserion, named for Viserys Targaryen


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

TampaThunder said:


> The wonders of Amazon Prime and same day shipping.
> 
> It's amazing to me the dichotomy of opinions on this episode. Many think this is one of the best GoT episodes and just as many think this is the worst and is utter ****e. I'll admit that the action scenes are, for the most part, done really well and make for an exciting show but any episode where the majority of the conversation is about the numerous plot holes and people going to amazing lengths to explain them away certainly can't really be considered a great episode can it?


The entire season has been like this. My co-workers like the season a lot but hate all of the plot holes. I think it's been the worst season by far despite being full of some great moments. I take issue with the pacing and the total disregard for internal consistency. Yet I see their point as well. It feels like great moments were released in trickles and now they are shooting at us out of a fire hose. What a spectacle! But I also keep thinking, uh oh... Better call a plumber!


----------



## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

nickels said:


> Remember all those theories back when Arya got stabbed by the Waif? Maybe it was a trap, maybe it was fake blood, maybe this maybe that... turns out it was just bad writing. Here we are again. Everyone trying to make sense of her character acting strange, but in the end it will be the same result: bad writing.


Well, they may not be much or plots or continuity, but as long as they keep the one liners coming for Clegane it will at least be entertaining .


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

tomhorsley said:


> Well, they may not be much or plots or continuity, but as long as they keep the one liners coming for Clegane it will at least be entertaining .


I could watch an entire episode of him and Tormund back and forth.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Doesn't bother me much. They have a limited number of episodes to wrap this puppy up so sh*t's started happening at a much faster pace.


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## Robin (Dec 6, 2001)

JohnB1000 said:


> Why did they not all return to Draginstone on the dragon, at least the Whight?
> 
> .


I figured Jon needed a smoother ride for recovery.



getbak said:


> . Or, if Viserion now breathes ice, he can flash freeze the sea near Eastwatch and they can just walk around the Wall.


According to the opening sequence isn't it already frozen?



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> . If it breaths ice storms, how cool would that be?


Winter is here!


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

Robin said:


> According to the opening sequence isn't it already frozen?


In the opening sequence, yes. But in the actual show, Dany's ship was right there, so no


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Read this in a Reddit thread somewhere but can't find it to link:

Round One Fantasy NFL Draft pick:
Quarterback - The Night King

Round Two:
Running Back - Gendry


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Unbeliever said:


> She's ready for 6-8 inches of Snow.


LOL! That adds a whole new meaning to the meme "Winter is Coming" ...


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm still not entirely convinced that she did...the fact that she was following him around so conspicuously when she could have just worn somebody else's face makes me wonder if _she's_ not playing _him_.


I was desperately hoping for that to be the case after the previous episode, but after this episode, I don't think so. They didn't leave any clues for the audience that Arya was being strategic. Only that she was being dumb.


tomhorsley said:


> Well, they may not be much or plots or continuity, but as long as they keep the one liners coming for Clegane it will at least be entertaining .


"Every lord I've ever met has been a c**t. Don't see why the Lord of Light should be any different."


cheesesteak said:


> Doesn't bother me much. They have a limited number of episodes to wrap this puppy up so sh*t's started happening at a much faster pace.


But the limited number of episodes is entirely their own fault. They could have easily don't 10 episodes this season and 10 next season and laid the tracks and really fleshed this stuff out. Instead, they decided to just throw it all in as fast as they could. It's like they are sick of this project and just want to get it over with, and don't respect that the fans want the show to be as satisfying and intricate as it's always been.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Totally crazy off the wall thought......does anyone else think Bran and the Night King sort of look alike? Same facial shape, same chin, same nose.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm still not entirely convinced that she did...the fact that she was following him around so conspicuously when she could have just worn somebody else's face makes me wonder if _she's_ not playing _him_.


I think she can only wear the faces she has with her so if they are Trant and Frey people likely know they are dead. She would have to kill someone else to get their face no?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Jstkiddn said:


> Totally crazy off the wall thought......does anyone else think Bran and the Night King sort of look alike? Same facial shape, same chin, same nose.


You can Google the guy who is playing the Night King. It's not the guy playing Bran.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

I am still having trouble figuring out why we are in this situation right now? They knowingly set out to end this show in two short seasons after the season 6 finale. They still had a lot of story to tell and willingly decided to wrap it up in 13 final episodes (only 7 remain at this point). Now we have the plot moving so fast it is causing us to believe that birds can fly thousands of miles in minutes, characters can be anywhere on the map from scene to scene, and major story lines are being cut short. This was avoidable and should have been laid out over two full seasons. We are now forced to suspend our disbelief beyond reason and the characters are starting to act out of character. Plus, the "anyone can die" angle is no longer true, as I wasn't the least bit worried about most of the main characters trapped on that island.

Or, it could be that they are out of material from the books and the producers are now having to figure out these scenes on their own. I know they are getting directions and notes, but is it enough to be true to how the books will play out (if they are ever released)?


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Not to mention they have said some of the episodes could be up to 2 hours long for season 8. What's the point in cutting them down in episode count just to make them each twice as long? It's all very nonsensical what they've been doing as of late.


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

13 total episodes in the final two seasons (7 and 6).

And I have no issue with condensing the travel times. Like when Jon & Co. are at Dragonstone and the next scene they're arriving at Eastwatch, that's totally fine. That's how most filmed entertainment deals with travel. The audience simply understands that some time passed between those two scenes and nobody thinks twice about it.

But in this episode, where you show the Snowy Seven stranded on that island, and weathering through one night before Dany and the dragons show up, that is impossible to overlook, because they basically showed us how long the travel took, and it was impossibly fast.

It's almost as if one of the story bullet points that GRRM gave them for the framework of the final story was that the NK had to get a zombie dragon. And then D&D had to figure out how to make that happen and just didn't take the time to come up with a satisfying explanation. They were more interested in getting to the result (zombie dragon) than in laying the track for how the result happened. And that's the primary difference between GRRM and D&D.


----------



## BrettStah (Nov 12, 2000)

I'd rather they shorten certain things (like if they actually stood on that island/raised land for 2-3 days)


DevdogAZ said:


> weathering through one night


Is it definite that only one night passed, though? That far north, once winter arrives, how long do nights last, anyway?


----------



## markb (Jul 24, 2002)

tlc said:


> Where did the Night King get 2 miles of really large chain? There's _nothing_ up there, and they have all that chain?


There's not nothing. Until recently, there was civilization up there, in the form of the wildlings, and they had at least one village (Hardhome):










I'm not sure how plausible it is that there were huge chains left behind by the wildlings, but there is certainly more than nothing.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

BrettStah said:


> I'd rather they shorten certain things (like if they actually stood on that island/raised land for 2-3 days)
> 
> Is it definite that only one night passed, though? That far north, once winter arrives, how long do nights last, anyway?


I posted back a bit someone from Reddit did the science/math on Gendry getting back to Eastwatch, the raven getting to Dragonstone, Dany getting to them and how long it would take the water to freeze and it seems 4 days passed. They just didn't show us that.


----------



## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> But the limited number of episodes is entirely their own fault. They could have easily don't 10 episodes this season and 10 next season and laid the tracks and really fleshed this stuff out. Instead, they decided to just throw it all in as fast as they could. It's like they are sick of this project and just want to get it over with, and don't respect that the fans want the show to be as satisfying and intricate as it's always been.





nickels said:


> I am still having trouble figuring out why we are in this situation right now? They knowingly set out to end this show in two short seasons after the season 6 finale. They still had a lot of story to tell and willingly decided to wrap it up in 14 final episodes (only 7 remain at this point). Now we have the plot moving so fast it is causing us to believe that birds can fly thousands of miles in minutes, characters can be anywhere on the map from scene to scene, and major story lines are being cut short. This was avoidable and should have been laid out over two full seasons. We are now forced to suspend our disbelief beyond reason and the characters are starting to act out of character. Plus, the "anyone can die" angle is no longer true, as I wasn't the least bit worried about most of the main characters trapped on that island.
> 
> Or, it could be that they are out of material from the books and the producers are now having to figure out these scenes on their own. I know they are getting directions and notes, but is it enough to be true to how the books will play out (if they are ever released)?


I think it's a bit of both of these, but the book situation is also the key to both.

The intricacy of the plot in earlier seasons was very much a result of trying to be true to the source material. Without that, I think they feel more freedom to cut things down to a more streamlined, action-oriented, "TV friendly" pace.

At the same time, the writers & producers have always had the source material as a crutch to prop them up; without it, I think we're quickly seeing the limitations of their own creativity and talent. I don't know if they _can _write a detailed story of a similar caliber as GRRM's work. And honestly, I think they are aware of that, and are trying to avoid making the attempt.

Either way, this is starting to feel like a visual "Cliff's Notes" of the end of the saga, rather than a proper retelling of the story.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

BrettStah said:


> I'd rather they shorten certain things (like if they actually stood on that island/raised land for 2-3 days)
> 
> Is it definite that only one night passed, though? That far north, once winter arrives, how long do nights last, anyway?


The show didn't show that - but it also didn't give the slighest hint at how the group could have survived the elements for even a single nights on that barren bit of rock. No hats, blankets, fuel, food, or water.

If they want us to believe the standoff went longer then they need to do a better job of hinting at how that's possible. But the show has historically had issues showing us things that they want us to believe (the Unsullied are skilled and competent fighters, the designers of the wall know how to build proper gates , etc) so this may just be another case where they thought it was obvious that this band without proper gear or any supplies obviously held out in a mutual stare-off for a week. (Only disrupted when a thrown rock reminded the undead they were allowed to glance down and assess ice conditions)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

photoshopgrl said:


> I posted back a bit someone from Reddit did the science/math on Gendry getting back to Eastwatch, the raven getting to Dragonstone, Dany getting to them and how long it would take the water to freeze and it seems 4 days passed. They just didn't show us that.


I don't want them to drag out the standoff and make it seem to last forever while waiting for the dragons to arrive. But within approximately the same amount of time they could have figured out a way to convey to the audience that more than just 24 hours had passed since Gendry took off running.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

DevdogAZ said:


> I don't want them to drag out the standoff and make it seem to last forever while waiting for the dragons to arrive. But within approximately the same amount of time they could have figured out a way to convey to the audience that more than just 24 hours had passed since Gendry took off running.


I absolutely agree. I'm not saying the writers want us to think or know 4 days passed just that all the things they did show us happening would have taken about that amount of time. And the post above saying how could they survive those elements for one night let alone 4 was enough to pull you out of the story a bit.


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

nickels said:


> Remember all those theories back when Arya got stabbed by the Waif? Maybe it was a trap, maybe it was fake blood, maybe this maybe that... turns out it was just bad writing. Here we are again. Everyone trying to make sense of her character acting strange, but in the end it will be the same result: bad writing.


Well, it could still be the Waif impersonating Arya!

mind blown! 



Jonathan_S said:


> The show didn't show that - but it also didn't give the slighest hint at how the group could have survived the elements for even a single nights on that barren bit of rock. No hats, blankets, fuel, food, or water.


They did have fire and Thoros BBQ...they could've spent a good week there, easy, just waiting for the dragons to appear.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Exactly, it isn't about things we aren't shown and have to infer, such as scenes are not taking place at the same time, or we do not see the boring long journeys. For the most part I can get past that stuff. But, to have a group just north of the wall trapped on an island, only to be saved by dragons that were over a thousand miles away, well that is different. The least they could have done was shown them with a fire and some supplies, anything really. It seemed like that whole battle took place in a few hours when many days had to have passed the way it was presented. In earlier seasons the distances between locations was a vital part of the story, such as how where troops were located and how long it would take them to get from place to place.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I hate when people don't act like "normal" people. That entire argument between Sansa and Arya is so stupid and convoluted...people just don't talk like that...badly written dialogue, people acting strangely and saying things that don't make sense except if your goal is to prolong the argument and to NOT make your point.


Most "normal" peoples' conversations are for entertaining a home audience. I get what you're saying, but I give them some leeway with things like exposition.



wedgecon said:


> I think Arya is playing *the lying game* with Sansa. She said several things that were obvious lies, maybe to see if Sansa calls her fake story out.


I think it's The Game of Faces.



Robin said:


> According to the opening sequence isn't it already frozen?


As we know, the credits change from episode. We look for that frozen part each week. This week it was not frozen, for what it's worth.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

nickels said:


> It seemed like that whole battle took place in a few hours when many days had to have passed the way it was presented.


They did show it get dark and then light again so it was at least 24 hours. I do agree that it didn't seem to be more than that and should have been. The show wasn't 100% logical when GRRM was writing it but it did hang together MUCH better than it is now.


----------



## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

Here you go, they know it was BS:
*In a new interview Alan Taylor, a veteran Game of Thrones director who came back to do "Beyond the Wall," discussed the timeline and admitted it didn't quite work.*
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-people-behind-game-of-thrones-admit-this-weeks-resc-1798304996


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

gossamer88 said:


> I feel Viserion was an easier target since he was not looking and did not see it coming. Drogon probably woulda just swapped it with his tail. That's what I choose to believe and I'm sticking by it. Now if someone can explain the chain, I'd be even more in denial


Drogon was hit by that giant crossbow bolt in the battle with Jaime's men ... has time passed for him to heal or has he now fully healed in a magically quick time? Or are we to think of him as injured and still on the mend?


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

getreal said:


> Drogon was hit by that giant crossbow bolt in the battle with Jaime's men ... has time passed for him to heal or has he now fully healed in a magically quick time? Or are we to think of him as injured and still on the mend?


It's been a good long while since he got hurt just based on the things that have happened and the amount of time it would have taken to get from here to there. We don't know exactly how long but I would think it was long enough. He didn't seem badly hurt by the scorpion, as it was. Once it was removed, he seemed fine. They haven't implied dragons have magical healing abilities but being very large animals, it would take a lot to hurt them badly.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

getreal said:


> Drogon was hit by that giant crossbow bolt in the battle with Jaime's men ... has time passed for him to heal or has he now fully healed in a magically quick time?


A bit of both, I'd say.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> I think she can only wear the faces she has with her so if they are Trant and Frey people likely know they are dead. She would have to kill someone else to get their face no?


She has other "random" faces from Bravos that she stole. She can use them.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

getreal said:


> Drogon was hit by that giant crossbow bolt in the battle with Jaime's men ... has time passed for him to heal or has he now fully healed in a magically quick time? Or are we to think of him as injured and still on the mend?


He was shown 100% healed flaming Tarley's at the beginning of the previous episode.

So either White Walker throws really hard, or Ice Spear is magic/poisoned, or Dragon #2 isn't nearly as strong/healthy as Dragon #1.


----------



## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> So either White Walker throws really hard, or Ice Spear is magic/poisoned, or Dragon #2 isn't nearly as strong/healthy as Dragon #1.


I think it was the second. Like dragonglass, the material had some specific effect.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

uncdrew said:


> She has other "random" faces from Bravos that she stole. She can use them.


Or the girl he used when he killed Frey...


uncdrew said:


> He was shown 100% healed flaming Tarley's at the beginning of the previous episode.


Was he? I don't recall seeing him fly...


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> Bridgekeeper: "WHAT is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow raven?"
> 
> GoT Producers: "What? We don't know thaaaaaaaaaaat!"


Westerosi or Essosian?


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DevdogAZ said:


> It's almost as if one of the story bullet points that GRRM gave them for the framework of the final story was that the NK had to get a zombie dragon. And then D&D had to figure out how to make that happen and just didn't take the time to come up with a satisfying explanation. They were more interested in getting to the result (zombie dragon) than in laying the track for how the result happened. And that's the primary difference between GRRM and D&D.


That's exactly what happened. They know the key points, but have to fill in all the rest. In the little after-show segment they talked about how they were trying to devise a way to make the pieces fit when they came up with the idea for the island. They know what they are supposed to accomplish, but don't know exactly how they have to do it. And I think they just don't quite have the skill for it the way GRRM does. That's not totally meant to insult their writing ability. Writing coherent stories where everything fits together nices, doesn't leave stupid holes, doesn't have BS plot-devices to magically make things work, etc is VERY HARD. Look how many movies are made each year, and how few of them are really well and thoughtfully written. IMHO for the really good ones you're very lucky if you see one a year. Writing at this level of quality is extremly difficult. GRRM set the bar very high up to now, and to be honest it's expecting a lot to want the writers to match.



uncdrew said:


> So either White Walker throws really hard, or Ice Spear is magic/poisoned...


It's magic, plain and simple. As I mentioned before, we saw these same ice spears at Hardhome. When a regular sword touches the ice spear, the SWORD shatters into 1000 pieces, not the spear. When the spear hit Visceron, it probably did not puncture him, but merely shattered a portion of his abdomen into 1000 pieces, leaving a gaping hole, which is why we saw fire and blood spilling out of his belly.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

LordKronos said:


> GRRM set the bar very high up to now, and to be honest it's expecting a lot to want the writers to match.


Yes, I have suspected for years and now am convinced that the extent to which the show understands how the world fits together (and distance & travel time is a part of that) depends on the extent to which they are drawing from the books. GRRM works this stuff out. Benioff and Weiss don't.

And I guess the extent to which it hurts the show depends on the extent to which this kind of world-building matters to you.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> That's exactly what happened. They know the key points, but have to fill in all the rest.


I've heard this referred to as the Constellation Problem. GRRM gave them the milestones, which are like random stars in the sky. D&D have to make a constellation out of these random stars. Sometimes the constellations make sense, sometimes you have to stretch a little to see the bear or whatever.


----------



## cbrrider (Feb 2, 2005)

Anubys said:


> Well, it could still be the Waif impersonating Arya!


Whoa [best Keanu impression]. The Waif cut off her own face to put on the wall of faces, just to impersonate Arya. Hardcore.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I just wish he had given them a better outline.  

As mentioned, they seemed to do very well last year and I agree that they probably were given as much source material as was available (so, dang them, they have probably read most of the next book!) but now they are even past that and we can see it breaking down.


----------



## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

SIAP, but to stay on the "chains" thread... besides the fact they're obviously carrying around 5000 tons of chains for fun... since the Dead don't do water, like at all, how did they get the chains around Viserion?


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

Odds Bodkins said:


> SIAP, but to stay on the "chains" thread... besides the fact they're obviously carrying around 5000 tons of chains for fun... since the Dead don't do water, like at all, how did they get the chains around Viserion?


Considering most of the dead army and the NK wondered off after the "battle" it's likely they went off to fetch the chains and came backs.


----------



## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Odds Bodkins said:


> SIAP, but to stay on the "chains" thread... besides the fact they're obviously carrying around 5000 tons of chains for fun... since the Dead don't do water, like at all, how did they get the chains around Viserion?


Well, we've seen the Night King's spear throwing ability.

That also translates to chain throwing.


----------



## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

They don't like water but I'm sure their maker can be very persuasive if something he wants is at the bottom of that water.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> They don't like water but I'm sure their maker can be very persuasive if something he wants is at the bottom of that water.


Dontcha just HATE bosses like that?


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

cbrrider said:


> Whoa [best Keanu impression]. The Waif cut off her own face to put on the wall of faces, just to impersonate Arya. Hardcore.


Well, it's more believable than the conversation between Sansa and Arya:

Sansa:" they made me do it"
Arya:" oh yeah? did they hold a knife to your neck?"
Sansa:"um, no...they just asked very nicely".

Sansa didn't say:"um...have you MET cersei and Joffrey? you think I had a choice? I did what I had to do to survive. I knew Mom and Robb wouldn't believe what I wrote. Besides, this letter was a veiled threat to Robb of "we have your sister, so stop being a D***".

But, no. Sansa didn't say any of that. She just let it go as if Arya was right!


----------



## mitkraft (Feb 21, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> It's like the Wonder Twins.
> 
> "Form of Flaming Polar Bear!"
> 
> "Form of Ice Chains!"


That's funny! And you even kept it accurate because one of the twins was always an animal and the other was always something to do with water.


----------



## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

Anubys said:


> Well, it's more believable than the conversation between Sansa and Arya:
> 
> Sansa:" they made me do it"
> Arya:" oh yeah? did they hold a knife to your neck?"
> ...


Exactly. The dialogue between these two is jarringly nonsensical. This entire Sansa/Arya stuff is a complete mess. I don't know how they're going to extricate themselves from this corner they've painted themselves into. None of this really makes any sense given the characters that these two have been prior to this season. There must be something going on that I'm just too dumb to imagine. Arya's one of my favorite characters and this negative personality change really ticks me off.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

LordKronos said:


> That was a bit early on when she killed him. I'm not sure she knew enough about how to remove a face at that time.


That's a good point. She didn't seem to have the ability to change faces when the waif was chasing her, so it is unlikely that she took the face right after killing Trant.

However, I do like photoshopgrl's explanation:



photoshopgrl said:


> Maybe she didn't but the fact that she used a face to do so might have put him in the room with the rest for her to take later. Whoever it is, had a beard I think, so maybe. I keep re watching that scene but they just don't show that one enough for me to see who I think it could be.


The beard plus the facial structure is what made me think it could be Trant. Frey and Trant are the only two men we've seen her kill (directly) since arriving in Braavos. So I thought maybe the faces were them.

Trant's face would be useless around anyone who knew him and knew he was dead, and Arya heard people talking about what happened to him when she was sitting on the street blind in Braavos. So we know she didn't try to hide his body, and the Faceless Men didn't come in and make him disappear. Thus, most people who know him probably know he is dead by now.

But the same could be said for Frey. So perhaps Arya is holding on to those faces more as trophies than disguises.

If she wanted Sansa to find some of her faces, ones that she wasn't planning on using would be the ones she would want her to find.

On the other hand, maybe the first face was a face that Arya wants Sansa to be able to recognize in the future so that Sansa will know it is her.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Perhaps she could have taken a half-day and flown Jon and Jerah up to the North, viewed the White Walkers from safe distance, and then returned home. I mean sheesh, you have dragons. Want to go somewhere? Just fly a dragon. Hell, I'd fly a dragon every chance I could. Even just to go get a gallon of milk.


By that point, I think Daenerys was convinced enough that the White Walkers were real that she didn't need to see them for herself, even if she hadn't fully comprehended the extent of their threat. But they still needed the captured wight to show Cersei and the other leaders of King's Landing.

Going in on foot made sense from the point-of-view of them wanting to be able to get close to the White Walkers undetected.

However, given how quickly she could travel up there and back, the dragons should have been part of their escape plan from the beginning. That would have eliminated the travel time issue, and also added the additional dynamic of Jon feeling guilty for pushing Daenerys to bring her dragons, leading to one of their deaths.



tlc said:


> Where did the Night King get 2 miles of really large chain? There's _nothing_ up there, and they have all that chain?


Their previous invasion was simply a diversion to steal those chains. They are playing the long game.



mooseAndSquirrel said:


> If it breaths ice storms, how cool would that be?


Icy, what you did there.


----------



## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

hefe said:


> Drogon, named for Khal Drogo


*Person who doesn't fear being burnt alive by Daenerys:* You named a dragon "Drogon"? How creative...

*Daenerys:* He's actually named after my late husband.

*Person who still doesn't fear being burnt alive by Daenerys:* Mmmmhmmmm.

*Daenerys:* Dracarys.

*Person about to be burnt alive by Daenerys:* Now that's a cool name. Why didn't you--

*Person being burnt alive by Daenerys:* AHHHHHHHH!


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## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

Anubys said:


> But, no. Sansa didn't say any of that. She just let it go as if Arya was right!


"But her e-mails!"

--Carlos V.


----------



## dtle (Dec 12, 2001)

Just by fudging the writing, they could've easily made the plots more plausible.

Timing - As many suggested, just make Dany "sense" that Jon will be in danger, and leave way ahead of time, rather than having her wait to receive a raven from Gendry.

The Chains - Just have the Night King enter the water, and moments later, a huge zombie dragon with blue eyes emerge from the water, with DK riding him. No chains are needed.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

dtle said:


> The Chains - Just have the Night King enter the water, and moments later, a huge zombie dragon with blue eyes emerge from the water, with DK riding him. No chains are needed.


But then we wouldn't have gotten that dragon eye opening blue dramatic ending!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Who is to say the night king didn't go fetch some chains and come back? With time being totally malleable in the show now, we don't have to assume he was carrying them around. 

The Arya faces in a bag thing was total horse crap they improvised in order to motivate Sansa into having the reaction they wanted.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Was he? I don't recall seeing him fly...


While flaming the Tarley's he extended his wings. Full analysis on the video showed zero external or internal damage.* Also, Drogon was heard (if you isolate the video) telling the other two Dragons that he's fine, he was just being dramatic to get a few more cows per week from Dany.**

* Not necessarily true
** Not true


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Odds Bodkins said:


> SIAP, but to stay on the "chains" thread... besides the fact they're obviously carrying around 5000 tons of chains for fun... since the Dead don't do water, like at all, how did they get the chains around Viserion?


Zombie Scuba Excersion Team!


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> But then we wouldn't have gotten that dragon eye opening blue dramatic ending!


It was too predictable. I like the aforementioned script changes. DTLE, you're hired.

Dany is sitting around bored out of her mind. She really would have/should have given them a ride North and provided protection. Hell, her beloved Jorah, er Joh, was with them. She basically decided to stick around Dragonstone and work on her throne butt rather than help out and have an adventure.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

When they first announced they were going to get a Wight, my first thought was why not take the dragons? It's like in Lord of the Rings when you find out Gandalf is friends with a bunch of huge eagles that are big enough for people to ride on.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

it was sort of cute how Dany was all worried by the fire about Jon and Tyrion called her on it 

and another joke about Jon being short for good measure!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BeanMeScot said:


> When they first announced they were going to get a Wight, my first thought was why not take the dragons? It's like in Lord of the Rings when you find out Gandalf is friends with a bunch of huge eagles that are big enough for people to ride on.


Why on Earth Westeros would Dany send one of her Big Guns away from the war she's fighting, on what she thinks is a useless mission?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why on Earth Westeros would Dany send one of her Big Guns away from the war she's fighting, on what she thinks is a useless mission?


The whole point was that she wanted to stop the current war to focus on the issue of the White Walkers. And it's not like any of them were currently engaged in any kind of battle. After all, she did go.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why on Earth Westeros would Dany send one of her Big Guns away from the war she's fighting, on what she thinks is a useless mission?


Which war is she fighting? She's just sitting around.

She can get to the wall and back in 7 minutes.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

uncdrew said:


> Which war is she fighting? She's just sitting around.
> 
> She can get to the wall and back in 7 minutes.


Exactly.


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> Which war is she fighting? She's just sitting around.
> 
> She can get to the wall and back in 7 minutes.


Yeah, I'd think she'd be more like "You boys get on the damn dragon and let's get this over with". Of course, then there'd be no opportunity for all the great conversations during the stroll beyond the wall.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

It's been mentioned but Tyrion turning into the world's worst hand annoys me as much as anything else.


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

It's been mentioned but Tyrion turning into the world's worst hand annoys me as much as anything else.


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## Shakhari (Jan 2, 2005)

It occurred to me that last season was covered by material in the book GRRM is still writing, so technically it was still based on already written material, but everything that's been going on in the show this season hasn't been written yet. It will be interesting when the 7th book comes out (presuming it ever does) to see how much GRRM was influenced by this season and next.

Another random thought: if it's true the WWs can't pass over water for some reason, all Dany would have to do is have the dragons burn a trench across the Neck from coast to coast. Sure, she would sacrifice the North, but the rest of Westeros would be safe, and she would have Jon all to herself.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why on Earth Westeros would Dany send one of her Big Guns away from the war she's fighting, on what she thinks is a useless mission?


But she didn't think that at all. She believed Jon. She needed proof to convince Cersei and other Lords.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> As mentioned, they seemed to do very well last year and I agree that they probably were given as much source material as was available (so, dang them, they have probably read most of the next book!) but now they are even past that and we can see it breaking down.





Shakhari said:


> It occurred to me that last season was covered by material in the book GRRM is still writing, so technically it was still based on already written material, but everything that's been going on in the show this season hasn't been written yet. It will be interesting when the 7th book comes out (presuming it ever does) to see how much GRRM was influenced by this season and next.


Ha! Smeek.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I've been meaning to mention this and kept forgetting: There was no need to continue looking for a zombie and all the problems that came with it. Once they survived the attack by the zombie bears, they had at least 2 or 3 dead redshirts that were going to come to life soon enough. All they had to do was drag one of the their dead back with them to Eastwatch at that point.


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I've been meaning to mention this and kept forgetting: There was no need to continue looking for a zombie and all the problems that came with it. Once they survived the attack by the zombie bears, they had at least 2 or 3 dead redshirts that were going to come to life soon enough. All they had to do was drag one of the their dead back with them to Eastwatch at that point.


In GoT they have to be actively turned/animated. Being killed by the zombie polar bear doesn't make them a zombie. Being dead and animated by a White Walker does.

At least that is my understanding. Why else would specific wights fall when a certain White Walker is killed?


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

ClutchBrake said:


> In GoT they have to be actively turned/animated. Being killed by the zombie polar bear doesn't make them a zombie. Being dead and animated by a White Walker does.
> 
> At least that is my understanding. Why else would specific wights fall when a certain White Walker is killed?


I'm not disagreeing with you, but what was the deal with that one that came alive in Castle Black? Wasn't he dead when they brought him through and then he popped up once he was on the other side?


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## ClutchBrake (Sep 5, 2001)

pendragn said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, but what was the deal with that one that came alive in Castle Black? Wasn't he dead when they brought him through and then he popped up once he was on the other side?


I was wondering the same thing, but based on what we've seen recently I thought I was forgetting something about that instance. Guess I was not!

Maybe he was a trojan and there was a White Walker out there that activated him.


----------



## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

ClutchBrake said:


> I was wondering the same thing, but based on what we've seen recently I thought I was forgetting something about that instance. Guess I was not!
> 
> Maybe he was a trojan and there was a White Walker out there that activated him.


Maybe it's not as much about who brings them back as it is about who kills them?? I can't recall how the one from CB died though.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Here is a video of part of that scene. It doesn't show the wight's entire resurrection. Also, notably, his eyes don't shine blue like we're used to.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

Here is a wiki entry about that scene, Othor. It confirms he is a wight, and in the book had blue eyes. It sounds like he was animated north of the wall, so potentially by a White Walker. It doesn't explain why he wasn't mobile when they found him or brought him south of the wall.


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Blue eyes? Maybe they're Walter Wights.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Seems someone's been reading this forum or maybe these are all so obvious everyone is asking the same questions.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

One of the questions in that article was one I was just going to ask: As long as everyone is piling on about stupidities in this episode, where the heck was the dragonglass? A few dragonglass arrowheads and a bow could have been pretty useful against the white walkers, but they left it all back in dragonstone. (In fact, dragonglass has been so effective in previous episodes, I've been wondering what would happen if they just bombed the white walkers by dumping bags of dragonglass chips on them from the air).


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

After the CastleBlack battle, they burned all the dead. Even Igrit was burned. So it's clear that you don't need a WW to animate you.

As far as dragon glass, Jorah took one out of his coat when they were getting ready to fight...so they had it with them...


----------



## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

fwiw, they did try to show us that time had been passing...as they went away to other parts and come back to the magnificent 7, they showed them asleep and waking up, they showed them bored and colder, etc. So while they didn't do a good job of showing the passage of time, they tried to show us that a lot of time/hours had passed as they waited.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

And I've just thought up a new theory I haven't seen anywhere else: Everyone wonders how Jon could possibly have gotten out of the frozen lake wearing tons of soaked furs and such. What if he was saved by the drowned god? Maybe Jon is a god magnet, collecting the lord of light, then the drowned god. He's going to King's Landing in the next episode, maybe he can collect the seven from the ruins of the Sept of Baelor.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

I prefer the theory (not mine, but I like it) that Dany can't be killed by fire and Jon can't be killed by ice (Fire and Ice).


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tomhorsley said:


> One of the questions in that article was one I was just going to ask: As long as everyone is piling on about stupidities in this episode, where the heck was the dragonglass? A few dragonglass arrowheads and a bow could have been pretty useful against the white walkers, but they left it all back in dragonstone. (In fact, dragonglass has been so effective in previous episodes, I've been wondering what would happen if they just bombed the white walkers by dumping bags of dragonglass chips on them from the air).


They all had dragonglass weapons. Mostly daggers. But it wasn't shown very clearly.


Anubys said:


> After the CastleBlack battle, they burned all the dead. Even Igrit was burned. So it's clear that you don't need a WW to animate you.


Not necessarily. They simply didn't want to leave unburned corpses behind because then the WWs would be able to reanimate them.


Anubys said:


> fwiw, they did try to show us that time had been passing...as they went away to other parts and come back to the magnificent 7, they showed them asleep and waking up, they showed them bored and colder, etc. So while they didn't do a good job of showing the passage of time, they tried to show us that a lot of time/hours had passed as they waited.


Yes, they showed some time passing. Nobody disputes that. It looked like they were all waking up from sleeping when they noticed Thoros had frozen to death overnight. But that was the only evidence we saw of a night passing. And it would take much more than one day for a raven to get to Dragonstone. That's the complaint.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Shakhari said:


> It occurred to me that last season was covered by material in the book GRRM is still writing, so technically it was still based on already written material, but everything that's been going on in the show this season hasn't been written yet. It will be interesting when the 7th book comes out (presuming it ever does) to see how much GRRM was influenced by this season and next.


I don't think the final book is ever going to be written, at least not by GRRM.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Anubys said:


> I prefer the theory (not mine, but I like it) that Dany can't be killed by fire and Jon can't be killed by ice (Fire and Ice).


But Dany emerges from the fire completely unscathed. It even seems good for her. Even her hair is fireproof. Jon emerges from the ice in pretty bad shape.


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

This is video on the making of Sunday's Game of Thrones episode.


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

Jstkiddn said:


> Totally crazy off the wall thought......does anyone else think Bran and the Night King sort of look alike? Same facial shape, same chin, same nose.


I thought he looked like Ron Moody, but I think I'd better think it out again.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Seems someone's been reading this forum or maybe these are all so obvious everyone is asking the same questions.


I think they're all very obvious questions.


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

Jstkiddn said:


> Totally crazy off the wall thought......does anyone else think Bran and the Night King sort of look alike? Same facial shape, same chin, same nose.


Is This Proof That 'Game Of Thrones' Bran Stark Is Actually The Night King?


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## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Yes, I have suspected for years and now am convinced that the extent to which the show understands how the world fits together (and distance & travel time is a part of that) depends on the extent to which they are drawing from the books. GRRM works this stuff out. Benioff and Weiss don't.
> 
> And I guess the extent to which it hurts the show depends on the extent to which this kind of world-building matters to you.


And that is why I think GRRM is a c**t. I honestly don't believe we'll see books 6 and 7.


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Mr. Soze said:


> And that is why I think GRRM is a c**t. I honestly don't believe we'll see books 6 and 7.


hey everybody! Sandor Clegane is posting on TCF!

That word used to always make me cringe, but now it makes me giggle every time Clegane says it...I'm really really worried that I will now accidentally use it


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> But Dany emerges from the fire completely unscathed. It even seems good for her. Even her hair is fireproof. Jon emerges from the ice in pretty bad shape.


Dany's clothes burned away and she was nice and warm. Jon was trying to scramble onto the ice weighed down by a soaking heavy cloak which would have frozen solid on the ride back to the wall.

But if Jon was truly immune to ice/cold it still seems he'd have been in better shape during the ride back to the wall. (Unless they try to just pass that off as exhaustion from fighting and sleep deprivation - not from cold exposure)


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> But the limited number of episodes is entirely their own fault. They could have easily don't 10 episodes this season and 10 next season and laid the tracks and really fleshed this stuff out. Instead, they decided to just throw it all in as fast as they could. It's like they are sick of this project and just want to get it over with, and don't respect that the fans want the show to be as satisfying and intricate as it's always been.


Does anyone know if it was the cast or HBO pushing to shorten things? I'm sure it's expensive, but it's HBO's big winner. I'd think they'd want to stretch it out.



TAsunder said:


> Who is to say the night king didn't go fetch some chains and come back? With time being totally malleable in the show now, we don't have to assume he was carrying them around.


Fetch them from _where_? How did they north of The Wall?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

tlc said:


> Does anyone know if it was the cast or HBO pushing to shorten things? I'm sure it's expensive, but it's HBO's big winner. I'd think they'd want to stretch it out.


I wonder if, from a production perspective, they actually did shorten things all that much? I wouldn't be at all surprised if the production schedule for this season (and the budget) was in the same ballpark as previous seasons, given the "big" nature of just about every episode...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

When Jon came out from under water, the horde was actually leaving the area and marching away. Then they saw Jon and attacked him.

So when we came back to them taking the dragon out, it's perfectly plausible that this was a while later. They left, got/made the chains, then came back to drag the dragon out. This could've been hours, weeks, or months later.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

photoshopgrl said:


> Maybe it's not as much about who brings them back as it is about who kills them?? I can't recall how the one from CB died though.


Maybe it's about poor writing.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Anubys said:


> When Jon came out from under water, the horde was actually leaving the area and marching away. Then they saw Jon and attacked him.
> 
> So when we came back to them taking the dragon out, it's perfectly plausible that this was a while later. They left, got/made the chains, then came back to drag the dragon out. This could've been hours, weeks, or months later.


Yep. That's all fine.

So will something in this next episode help us with that?

Will Sansa & Arya tension be over (since weeks/months passed). Will Brienne of F'ink Tarth already be back from Kings Landing? It'll be interesting to see if some scenes have advanced a day or two and then the "where did the chains come from" just won't make sense.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, I think we can make all the excuses we want for the writers, but at the end of the day they just don't pay enough attention to the passage of time. Which worked better when they had GRRM's books to backstop them, but now, not so much.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

tlc said:


> Fetch them from _where_? How did they north of The Wall?


The Wildlings live north of the wall. They could very well have chains that the Others took after the Wildlings evacuated.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> Does anyone know if it was the cast or HBO pushing to shorten things? I'm sure it's expensive, but it's HBO's big winner. I'd think they'd want to stretch it out.


I'm pretty sure it wasn't the cast or HBO. It was Benioff and Weiss who decided they would be able to finish up the story in only 13. You're right that HBO would prefer this to go on much longer.


Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder if, from a production perspective, they actually did shorten things all that much? I wouldn't be at all surprised if the production schedule for this season (and the budget) was in the same ballpark as previous seasons, given the "big" nature of just about every episode...


I also think this is true. Obviously we don't know the financials, but I think I read that the budget for this season wasn't reduced due to the fewer number of episodes. They just had more money to spend per episode, which is how they could afford to pave the entire floor of a quarry with concrete and then paint it to look like ice.


----------



## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

tlc said:


> I'm sure it's expensive, but it's HBO's big winner.


It is indeed expensive, but it is comparable to the amount spent per episode on _Friends[1], _and less than _ER, _or _The Crown_.

[1] - That seems insane to me...

(The latest season and the budget per episode surely altered this balance a bit...)


----------



## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

ct1 said:


> It is indeed expensive, but it is comparable to the amount spent per episode on _Friends[1], _and less than _ER, _or _The Crown_.
> 
> [1] - That seems insane to me...


But they only started spending that much per episode on Friends or ER after they had a huge hit on their hands and well over 100 episodes in the can, so they knew they'd make their money back on syndication. So it's not that insane when you look at it that way.


----------



## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

Speaking of chains, why doesn't Jon Snow and so many others wear some chain mail armor?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> But Dany emerges from the fire completely unscathed. It even seems good for her. Even her hair is fireproof. Jon emerges from the ice in pretty bad shape.


Well he's only half Stark, and Half Targaryn, so maybe he has a little resistance to both but not full resistance.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

mooseAndSquirrel said:


> Speaking of chains, why doesn't Jon Snow and so many others wear some chain mail armor?


Because they know nothing?


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

I've seen those Bran is the night king theories and I am totally sold on it, the way he's so creepy now and also how he can't really seem to change anything (the ink is dry you know), it makes perfect sense that the reason he is here is to become the night king.

Anyhow we'll see how it plays out but it's almost becoming like Westworld type foreshadowing, and I would be shocked if the night king is not somebody we already know.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> I've seen those Bran is the night king theories and I am totally sold on it, the way he's so creepy now and also how he can't really seem to change anything (the ink is dry you know), it makes perfect sense that the reason he is here is to become the night king.
> 
> Anyhow we'll see how it plays out but it's almost becoming like Westworld type foreshadowing, and I would be shocked if the night king is not somebody we already know.


I'm so not sold on it.

If they cop out with that madness I'll wear an Ikea rug to work for a month.


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## nickels (Jan 11, 2010)

We saw the birth of the night king from the children of the forest jamming a piece of dragonstone into his heart. The only way it is Bran is if he warged into that person when it happened.


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## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

nickels said:


> We saw the birth of the night king from the children of the forest jamming a piece of dragonstone into his heart. The only way it is Bran is if he warged into that person when it happened.


Which is totally possible, remember he has been warned that if he stays in the past too long he could get stuck...


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

This is turning into LOST.

Polar bears, smoke, I'm sure there are others...


----------



## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

You could be wearing that Ikea rug, not because it makes sense but because the show has gone very dumb. I only just started listening to Cast of Kings (last 3 episodes) but it's amazing how the show has sank so rapidly, basically since Jaime and Bran fell in the river. Easy to forget now that, even with a few time flaws, most stuff what fine up to that point. The last two episodes have been killers.


----------



## morac (Mar 14, 2003)

tlc said:


> Fetch them from _where_? How did they north of The Wall?


There could be chains in Hardhome. The chains looked like anchor chains and Hardhome is near the water, so it's plausible that they came from there.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

morac said:


> There could be chains in Hardhome. The chains looked like anchor chains and Hardhome is near the water, so it's plausible that they came from there.


I find "magic ice chains" more plausible than most anything else. Wildlings that live in caves or huts and are lucky to keep warm can somehow produce industrial strength chains?


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> I find "magic ice chains" more plausible than most anything else. Wildlings that live in caves or huts and are lucky to keep warm can somehow produce industrial strength chains?


Didn't Jon lose some of his ships at Hardhome? Good Seven-Kingdoms anchors on those ships...


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## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

All the White Walkers and the Wights are wearing clothing, chain mail, armor, etc., and we've seen them carrying various weaponry. They clearly have...stuff...somewhere. They've also been around for centuries; so long that most people no longer even believe they exist. Why is it so hard to believe they pilfered some chains from somewhere during all that time?


----------



## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Malcontent said:


> Is This Proof That 'Game Of Thrones' Bran Stark Is Actually The Night King?


Maybe Bran Stark and the Night King both shop at TheWallMart ...


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

Jonathan_S said:


> ...But if Jon was truly immune to ice/cold it still seems he'd have been in better shape during the ride back to the wall. (Unless they try to just pass that off as exhaustion from fighting and sleep deprivation - not from *cold exposure*)


"Cold exposure" ... otherwise known as "*hypothermia*" ...


----------



## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

dcheesi said:


> Didn't Jon lose some of his ships at Hardhome? Good Seven-Kingdoms anchors on those ships...


He didn't lose any ships, because the ships were way out in the water (which was part of the problem of why it took so long to evacuate everyone...getting them to the ships via rowboat). But as we've discussed before, we don't know exactly where Stannis' ships got left at. Since Jon and the wildlings approached castle black from north of the wall, I presume they got left somewhere in the north (and the water has probably frozen over by now). It's possible that Stannis left some men behind to be in charge of the ships (which is a possible...does Jon and some wildlings even know the first thing about operating a ship?), in which case they just dropped Jon and the Wildlings off and then sailed away. If that's the case, we know nothing about where they might've gone.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Dawghows said:


> All the White Walkers and the Wights are wearing clothing, chain mail, armor, etc., and we've seen them carrying various weaponry. They clearly have...stuff...somewhere. They've also been around for centuries; so long that most people no longer even believe they exist. Why is it so hard to believe they pilfered some chains from somewhere during all that time?


Thousands and thousands of feet, in pristine condition?

Even a patchwork of mis-matched chains would be hard to believe (for me). The Wildlings could barely get an axe.


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## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Thousands and thousands of feet, in pristine condition?
> 
> Even a patchwork of mis-matched chains would be hard to believe (for me). The Wildlings could barely get an axe.


The Wildlings raided south of the Wall. They could have stolen them and brought them north.


----------



## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

getreal said:


> "Cold exposure" ... otherwise known as "*hypothermia*" ...


 It's only hypothermia if you aren't immune to cold.


----------



## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

getreal said:


> Maybe Bran Stark and the Night King both shop at TheWallMart ...


----------



## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Ugh, I hope they don't go in that direction. He's been the least likable character for me this whole series.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

I find it unlikely he is the Night King but there must be some relationship between being the Three Eyed Raven and the Night King.


----------



## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

markp99 said:


> Ugh, I hope they don't go in that direction. He's been the least likable character for me this whole series.


Over Ramsay Bolton?


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

cheesesteak said:


> Over Ramsay Bolton?


Ramsay was deliciously despicable. Bran dislike is different for me.


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## ct1 (Jun 27, 2003)

markp99 said:


> Ugh, I hope they don't go in that direction. He's been the least likable character for me this whole series.


C'mon -- The Night King is pretty cool -- that was a great throw of the javelin.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

markp99 said:


> Ramsay was deliciously despicable. Bran dislike is different for me.


Same. Ramsay you loved to hate and couldn't wait to watch how he was going to meet his demise, Bran I just want off my screen.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

I thought all of that Bran / Night King stuff was just people trying to find connections, etc. But, that image of them wearing the same _necklace/brooch _does take it to another level. I don't know what to think about that, yet.

edit: spelling correction


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

SoBelle0 said:


> I thought all of that Bran / Night King stuff was just people trying to find connections, etc. But, that image of them wearing the same _necklace/broach _does take it to another level. I don't know what to think about that, yet.


I wonder if it just means that they (3-ER and NK) come from the same culture..?


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

But White Walkers did attack Bran in the Three Eyed Raven cave. I do think there is some relationship because of the necklace but I don't think Bran is the NK.


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## mooseAndSquirrel (Aug 31, 2001)

I hope it's not some kind of Lost ending, with 2 demi-gods playing a game.


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder if it just means that they (3-ER and NK) come from the same culture..?


Okay. I could accept that. Did the 3ER give Bran the necklace?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

We have seen the NK when he was a normal human. It was not Bran. Not by a long shot.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> We have seen the NK when he was a normal human. It was not Bran. Not by a long shot.


The argument is that Bran wargs into NK in the past and gets stuck there. (Not that I buy the argument, but that's the argument.)


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## TampaThunder (Apr 8, 2003)

I've seen a couple of YouTube videos saying that this was photoshopped along with the same picture of Bran without the brooch. Of course, the picture of Bran without the brooch could've been photoshopped too but I strongly believe that version than Bran and the Night King are one in the same.

I think it's more likely that Bran turns out to be a young Paul Mccartney.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

Malcontent said:


> View attachment 30208


Well that's an interesting find.

I'm not sure what to say.


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

SoBelle0 said:


> I thought all of that Bran / Night King stuff was just people trying to find connections, etc. But, that image of them wearing the same _necklace/brooch _does take it to another level. I don't know what to think about that, yet.


The costume people were in a hurry and didn't notice they grabbed the same necklace?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

uncdrew said:


> Well that's an interesting find.
> 
> I'm not sure what to say.


That just makes the find that much better


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

uncdrew said:


> This is turning into LOST.
> 
> Polar bears, smoke, I'm sure there are others...


"others" or "The Others"?


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## wprager (Feb 19, 2006)

While that flashback showed the creation of the first WW, I don't remember them saying that *this* is the Night King.


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## uncdrew (Aug 6, 2002)

BeanMeScot said:


> But White Walkers did attack Bran in the Three Eyed Raven cave. I do think there is some relationship because of the necklace but I don't think Bran is the NK.


Didn't the Night King touch Bran. So was Bran touching himself? That's bad.


Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder if it just means that they (3-ER and NK) come from the same culture..?


True. You can find lots of people with an American Flag symbol. Doesn't mean they're the same person, on the same side, etc.


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## photoshopgrl (Nov 22, 2008)

Malcontent said:


> View attachment 30208


I think that's fake?
Same scene here and none of the pics have that unless I'm really blind!


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## SoBelle0 (Jun 25, 2002)

Stupid internet faker people! Getting us to discuss some ridiculousness that isn't even true. This is GoT, not politics!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

BeanMeScot said:


> I find it unlikely he is the Night King but there must be some relationship between being the Three Eyed Raven and the Night King.


I realize the pic is a fake, but it's very possible that the Night King was originally a Stark, so there might be some kind of connection there.


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## BeanMeScot (Apr 17, 2002)

Why do people have to fake stuff like that? Annoying.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

tlc said:


> Does anyone know if it was the cast or HBO pushing to shorten things? I'm sure it's expensive, but it's HBO's big winner. I'd think they'd want to stretch it out.?


The original plan was for season 7 to be the final season with 10 episodes. HBO insisted on two more seasons so they compromised on two seasons with 7 and 6 episodes each. We are actually getting more episodes than they planned for.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

wedgecon said:


> The original plan was for season 7 to be the final season with 10 episodes. HBO insisted on two more seasons so they compromised on two seasons with 7 and 6 episodes each. We are actually getting more episodes than they planned for.


Where did you hear that? I haven't heard or read that anywhere. They didn't make the decision about the number of episodes until after S6 was complete, and I don't think anyone expected they'd be able to complete the saga in ten episodes from where they finished off in S6.

So it may have been the plan to do 7 seasons when they originally started, and maybe even as late as S5. But I think everyone involved knew it was going to be more than 7 once they got into S6.


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## wedgecon (Dec 28, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> Where did you hear that? I haven't heard or read that anywhere. They didn't make the decision about the number of episodes until after S6 was complete, and I don't think anyone expected they'd be able to complete the saga in ten episodes from where they finished off in S6.
> 
> So it may have been the plan to do 7 seasons when they originally started, and maybe even as late as S5. But I think everyone involved knew it was going to be more than 7 once they got into S6.


There were a lot of articles on this last year, but they seem to have disappeared, I could only find this one. The actual state they planned it out as a 70 hour movie and we will end up getting 73 hours.

'Game of Thrones' Producers Confirm Final Season Only 6 Episodes


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

But that just says that when they started (i.e., before Season 1) they thought it would be 70 hours, and now it's 73, not that they added three hours to a ten-hour Season 7.

I would be very, very surprised if they thought they could get it done in ten episodes after Season 6, especially considering the brutal compression they're going through now. Unless Season 8 turns out to be padded as hell!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> But that just says that when they started (i.e., before Season 1) they thought it would be 70 hours, and now it's 73, not that they added three hours to a ten-hour Season 7.
> 
> I would be very, very surprised if they thought they could get it done in ten episodes after Season 6, especially considering the brutal compression they're going through now. Unless Season 8 turns out to be padded as hell!


Agree with this. The original plan was one season (10 episodes) for each book. But as they got into S4 and 5, the show wasn't matching as closely with the books, and then the fact that GRRM never got books 6 and 7 completed made it much more unclear how much story was left after S5. I think they've known for a couple of years that it wouldn't finish with just 7 seasons, and I think the success of the show means that HBO was pushing hard for it to extend past 7 as well.


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## dcheesi (Apr 6, 2001)

DevdogAZ said:


> Agree with this. The original plan was one season (10 episodes) for each book. But as they got into S4 and 5, the show wasn't matching as closely with the books, and then the fact that GRRM never got books 6 and 7 completed made it much more unclear how much story was left after S5. I think they've known for a couple of years that it wouldn't finish with just 7 seasons, and I think the success of the show means that HBO was pushing hard for it to extend past 7 as well.


 Honestly, at this point I also have my doubts about GRRM's ability to finish the story in just two more books. As we're seeing with the TV version, it's actually very difficult to tie up all of these threads quickly without skipping a lot of detail, and books (and GRRM's books in particular) are all about detail.

OTOH, at the pace he's currently writing them, I doubt we'll ever see more than two additional books in any case...


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

dcheesi said:


> OTOH, at the pace he's currently writing them, I doubt we'll ever see more than two additional books in any case...


Based on my family, I've probably got about 20-30 years left. At the pace he's currently writing them, I'll be lucky to see the last two.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

dcheesi said:


> Honestly, at this point I also have my doubts about GRRM's ability to finish the story in just two more books.


Considering it was originally three books, then five, then seven, I don't believe anything he says about how many are left! Even if he's sincere, that doesn't mean he's right...


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

uncdrew said:


> This is turning into LOST.
> 
> Polar bears, smoke, I'm sure there are others...





wprager said:


> "others" or "The Others"?


In the book, the White Walkers are also referred to as The Others


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## tomhorsley (Jul 22, 2010)

My theory on the books is that GRRM owns most of the clickbait websites that publish wild new rumors about the books release date every day. He makes so much money from the ad revenue on the web sites, that he'll never finish the books. He's spending all his time thinking up more ridiculous rumors to put on the sites.


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## tlc (May 30, 2002)

A famous homing pigeon that flew 25 miles in 25 minutes, despite being shot, to save the day.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

uncdrew said:


> Yep. That's all fine.
> 
> So will something in this next episode help us with that?
> 
> Will Sansa & Arya tension be over (since weeks/months passed). Will Brienne of F'ink Tarth already be back from Kings Landing? It'll be interesting to see if some scenes have advanced a day or two and then the "where did the chains come from" just won't make sense.


I don't have a problem with scenes not being shown in chronological order between different locations. It makes sense that they would want to end on a dramatic moment rather than having the dragon being awoken during a random scene in the middle of the next episode. As long as enough time passes before the invasion starts, then I'm fine with just assuming that some of the scenes in the next episode happened before the Night King got the dragon.

As far as how the Night King got ahold of the chains, when we saw the first White Walker being created by the Children, the climate was warmer. I don't know if the book goes into more detail that might contradict this, but it's possible that north of the Wall wasn't always as cold and desolate as it is now. So there might have been more developed civilization before the Night King and his army wiped them out, making it always winter and never Christmas.

Speaking of winter, do we know if winters and summers have always lasted multiple years? Or could perhaps the creation of the White Walkers have changed the climate to what it is now? Even if not, I wonder if the solution to permanently stopping them is to make winters happen for a shorter time once a year. That seems to work for us.



DevdogAZ said:


> I realize the pic is a fake, but it's very possible that the Night King was originally a Stark, so there might be some kind of connection there.


If the picture wasn't fake, I would say this would be the best explanation. Having the same brooch doesn't prove anything about Bran warging into the Night King's body because he can't take objects into the past with him.

My guess is that the Three-Eyed Raven was created in response to the White Walkers, so the only thing they have in common is that they were both created using the magic of the Children to turn a regular person (or maybe someone of a particular bloodline, like a Stark) into something else.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

BitbyBlit said:


> Speaking of winter, do we know if winters and summers have always lasted multiple years?


Yes, seasons have always been of indeterminate length on this world (BTW, does it have a name?). They've talked about how some winters are short, and some are long. They talk about a winter a few years back that was really long. And they've mentioned a winter so long babies were born, grew up, and died, never having seen summer.


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

But with global warming that's unlikely to happen again !!!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Do they have SUVs in Westeros..?


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Do they have SUVs in Westeros..?


I think they have ROUSes. But Cersei doesn't think they exist, either.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Anubys said:


> I think they have ROUSes. But Cersei doesn't think they exist, either.


She probably thinks global warming is a hoax perpetrated by the Essosi...


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## Anubys (Jul 16, 2004)

and she clearly has an immigration problem right now...


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## JohnB1000 (Dec 6, 2004)

She recently 'fired' her opposition.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Also, she thinks a Wall will keep her safe.

On the other hand, the Night King is against Walls, supports immigration, accepts people from all backgrounds, and is actively fighting Global Warming.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Wow, it hadn't occurred to me that the Night King is the real hero of the story!


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

tlc said:


> A famous homing pigeon that flew 25 miles in 25 minutes, despite being shot, to save the day.


OK, so even if a raven could fly 60 MPH sustained without stopping, that still means it would take somewhere between 16 and 30 hours to get from Eastwatch to Dragonstone.


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## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DevdogAZ said:


> OK, so even if a raven could fly 60 MPH sustained without stopping, that still means it would take somewhere between 16 and 30 hours to get from Eastwatch to Dragonstone.


Wait is that an African or Asian raven?


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## ej42137 (Feb 16, 2014)

jakerock said:


> Wait is that an African or Asian raven?


Would this remark have been funnier if the question was Westrosian or Dornish, or would that have been too obscure? And how much would adding the missing comma have helped?


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

Laden or unladen?


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## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

photoshopgrl said:


> Not to mention they have said some of the episodes could be up to 2 hours long for season 8. What's the point in cutting them down in episode count just to make them each twice as long? It's all very nonsensical what they've been doing as of late.


I don't know if this is true, but I know the actors are paid "per episode". Up to a million+in dinklage's case. They can save millions of dollars by making 7 fewer episodes. Hell, most of the time, the actors on the show only have a few minutes of screen time per episode.


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## goblue97 (May 12, 2005)

uncdrew said:


> I agree. It's sinking.


It's good to know I'm not the only one.


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## LordKronos (Dec 28, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I don't know if this is true, but I know the actors are paid "per episode". Up to a million+in dinklage's case. They can save millions of dollars by making 7 fewer episodes.


Or by cutting Bran out of an entire season


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