# R.I.P. Tivo, The update that killed the Tivo User experience



## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

I have been frustrated by the train wreck of an update of the Tivo operating system.

It is less performant, clunky and unpolished, and has a large collection of new operational bugs.

Even the User Experience has changed from the way it previously behaved. It no longer does what what I would expect as the User. And for that reason, I no longer need a Tivo.

I have been a dedicated Tivo User and enthusiast since 2005. This is my last. This is the end. I will be turning it off and removing it from service soon.

The number of software defects introduced in the August update are too numerous to enumerate without a serious time expenditure. Perhaps persons more familiar with the recent threads may be able to post some links to other discussions to help illustrate just how broken the Tivo User experience has become. There are so many defects in the current build now it is pathetic. How could this build ever have passed QA?

I am referring to the major overhaul/upgrade where the UI was made to look very flat from the way it looked since forever; where the trademark Yellow color is now White. Perhaps this worst-idea-for-an-update was in August 2017.

I am currently on Tivo build: 20.7.4.RC2-846-6-846 on Series 5 hardware

I wish Rovi would save the Release Candidates for their QA department and send me me ONLY the FInal Candidates, please.

The final straw for me was when watching content that I had recorded; when I am behind HEAD, as it were. So, during my program which I have (1) recorded; and (2) in the middle of watching, for some reason, the cursor suddenly jumps from the middle of my program to the the beginning of the next show. This is totally new behavior; a drastic change from the way it was for over a decade. It is causing many disappointing viewing experiences in my household.

Expected behavior would be for the subsequent program to start filling the buffer of whatever tuner was being watched and allow the User to continue watching the content the User was currently watching by playing the recorded content from the recorded content saved in the My Shows area (The Saved Content).

Is Rovi engineering culture not up to par? Have they managed to kill the disciplined engineering and high quality software culture that Tivo was trying to maintain?

I would not recommend a Tivo to any future customer.

Tivo is dead to me.


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## k2ue (May 9, 2002)

Have you tried the alternatives? I did. I set off determined to cut the cord and burned thru it all: Plex, Emby, Kodi, DirecTVnow, CBS All Access, HDHomeRun, Playstation Vue, etc., ad nauseum. I have never seen so many bad interfaces without the good sense to steal the better parts of TiVo. They all remind me of today's magazines -- flossy pictures and big print, with no useful content. Many don't even offer a grid guide, and even when they do they are far less agile in doing something with the content you finally locate. None have a suggestion engine that often finds things we do indeed want to watch. TiVo is quintessentially American -- for all its flaws, where is there a better place to be? Nor are the alternatives cheaper -- getting Fox News will cost you $40+ per month in streaming packages that have it, and if you want the major Soaps for viewing on your schedule you will need to add both Hulu and CBS All Access. Roku and Fire TV think you want a screen full of big logo boxes, and resist presenting simple lists full of information. It's true Hydra won't yet do everything my TiVo-trained fingers could extract from the prior releases, but it offers more speed keys, and the I'm sure the good things left out will come back, as we point out their follies. Naturally, this being internet, the insults and character assassination will now commence. . .


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

The world needs less "performant."


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

Someone, with their first post, whining on the Internet, with a poll, what a surprise. Seems legit to me.


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## 241705 (Mar 9, 2010)

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

If you want to complain about 20.7.4 just wait until you see Hydra, that's a whole nuther level of "hey they ruined my Tivo" complaints


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Beat him up, if you want, but he's right!

So is K2ue...

-KP


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## Sparky1234 (May 8, 2006)

TiVo you love to hate it BUT there's nothing better!!!


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## johnner1999 (Oct 26, 2002)

I think hydra is a breath of fresh air. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

johnner1999 said:


> I think hydra is a breath of fresh air.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree. It has a few kinks to work out but it is not mired in baggage. It's a very good start for a fully new UI.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

Yet another one-and-done, drive-by ranter.


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## defond (Dec 14, 2004)

TonyD79 said:


> Agree. It has a few kinks to work out but it is not mired in baggage. It's a very good start for a fully new UI.


I agree! I am loving the new hydra update! It feels and looks more modern.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hefe (Dec 5, 2000)

I haven't seen Hydra yet, but I like the latest update. After about 2 days of adjustment, I like it better.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Is anything the OP said factually incorrect? Yeah, I agree that coming here with the first post being this one isn't awesome, but even disregarding the personal opinion part of the UI appearance, the truth is that 20.7.4 introduced a bunch of new - and in some cases fatal (slide remotes killed on V1 minis) defects, buffer issues, reboots, etc. Given the poor track record of Tivo quality assurance, there's zero chance of my moving to Hydra unless forced. As it is, 20.7.4 cost me money out of my pocket. Cold hard cash. Not an opinion, a suggestion, or a hypothesis. A fact.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

I note that the OP joined the forum in 2014, but never posted until now.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

stevel said:


> I note that the OP joined the forum in 2014, but never posted until now.


Probably a regular here who created multiple id's back then.


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## wbrightfl (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm not a fan of the UI changes to the color theme in 20.7.4. The new menus I am fine with. But as someone else said, there is nothing better currently. I am used to 20.7.4, but it isn't as appealing as the previous version was to me. I'm not going to sell my TIVOs over it. Just because TIVO releases an update stating it is more modern and sleek doesn't mean it really is to all of us. As for Hydra, no thanks. I have watched the videos and listened to the feedback by members and I won't be updating. I will stay with the current UI as it suits me well enough, I am happy there are fans of Hydra. I think its fine to have 2 different platforms to choose from.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wbrightfl said:


> I'm not a fan of the UI changes to the color theme in 20.7.4. The new menus I am fine with. But as someone else said, there is nothing better currently. I am used to 20.7.4, but it isn't as appealing as the previous version was to me. I'm not going to sell my TIVOs over it. Just because TIVO releases an update stating it is more modern and sleek doesn't mean it really is to all of us. As for Hydra, no thanks. I have watched the videos and listened to the feedback by members and I won't be updating. I will stay with the current UI as it suits me well enough, I am happy there are fans of Hydra. I think its fine to have 2 different platforms to choose from.


I encourage you to keep an eye on things. TiVo will be putting their efforts into hydra going forward and it should improve. The old GUI will be going into maintenance mode and except for bug fixes probably won't improve.

In the meanwhile, be where you are happy.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

dianebrat said:


> If you want to complain about 20.7.4 just wait until you see Hydra, that's a whole nuther level of "hey they ruined my Tivo" complaints


Except for the fact that the experience isn't affected at all by Hydra/gen4, since the upgrade is optional -- unless Hydra prevents TiVo from fixing the bugs introduced in the 20.7.2 & .4 releases.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

avaddict said:


> The final straw for me was when watching content that I had recorded; when I am behind HEAD, as it were. So, during my program which I have (1) recorded; and (2) in the middle of watching, for some reason, the cursor suddenly jumps from the middle of my program to the the beginning of the next show. This is totally new behavior; a drastic change from the way it was for over a decade. It is causing many disappointing viewing experiences in my household.


I'm not completely sure what you're talking about here, but it sounds like you're watching from the "LiveTV" buffer, even though the program is being recorded? If you were watching it from the "My Shows list", this wouldn't happen.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

kpeters59 said:


> Beat him up, if you want, but he's right!


It's arguable, but it seems more like a simple bug is at the root of the complaint.


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## randywalters (Oct 21, 2003)

foghorn2 said:


> Probably a regular here who created multiple id's back then.


Or it could be that he joined back then to learn about his new Tivo and was able to find everything he needed by searching and reading existing threads, and never felt the need to post until now. I read AVS for a few years before finally registering in 2002, and i didn't start actually posting until several months later. Same for other car forums i'm on. Looks like the OP is finally fed up with 20.7.4, but even with the problems it's not worth dumping Tivo for.

20.7.4 hasn't been problematic for my Premiere but i still lament the loss of the yellow highlight bar that made it easier to spot in my menus than the new white colored bar does. And how the little Tivo guy is now just a gray shadow of his former self.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

avaddict said:


> I have been frustrated by the train wreck of an update of the Tivo operating system.
> 
> It is less performant, clunky and unpolished, and has a large collection of new operational bugs.
> 
> ...


On behalf of TiVo, I am sorry that you are dissatisfied with the quality of our latest update. Typically, with these new releases that are based on a stable software branch, we strive to deliver bugs fixes, performance improvements and usability enhancements that come from thorough user testing. We also try to deliver some new features and functionality that are prioritized based on feedback we receive from customers like yourself.

There is sometimes a trade-off between the new features and the capabilities of the underlying hardware. Many people talked about the performance hit to our system when we upgraded from an SD to an HD user interface. Ultimately, this is why we decided not to try to release gen4/Hydra to Premiere devices. We felt like the performance fell below the bar of acceptable. Graphics demands, memory footprint, network latency, etc. were just too much for hardware that was designed 7-8 years ago.

I think there are also some qualitative issues at play here. One persons upgrade is another persons downgrade. When it comes to technology, not everyone embraces change. We've seen posts from people who upgrade themselves, but won't upgrade their parents system. One person calls our new interface a breath of fresh air, and the next person calls it a train wreck. This is one of the reasons we test our software before releasing it. And, despite the fact that some people think we don't test our software, we actually had more than a thousand testers of gen4/Hydra before we released it.

I'm sorry that we have lost you as a customer, but I also hope that we will win you back one day. We'll still be here doing the best we can to deliver great, innovative products.


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## The Merg (Dec 2, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Is anything the OP said factually incorrect? Yeah, I agree that coming here with the first post being this one isn't awesome, but even disregarding the personal opinion part of the UI appearance, the truth is that 20.7.4 introduced a bunch of new - and in some cases fatal (slide remotes killed on V1 minis) defects, buffer issues, reboots, etc. Given the poor track record of Tivo quality assurance, there's zero chance of my moving to Hydra unless forced. As it is, 20.7.4 cost me money out of my pocket. Cold hard cash. Not an opinion, a suggestion, or a hypothesis. A fact.


How accurate is the statement about the Slide Pro remote and the V1 Mini? My Slide Pro stopped working a couple weeks ago, but I'd had 20.7.4 for a little bit without issue. I was going to order the new VOX remote for my Roamio Pro and use its Slide Pro remote for my Mini.

Does anyone know then if the Slide Pro will work with Hydra on a Mini V1?

- Merg

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

The Merg said:


> How accurate is the statement about the Slide Pro remote and the V1 Mini? My Slide Pro stopped working a couple weeks ago, but I'd had 20.7.4 for a little bit without issue. I was going to order the new VOX remote for my Roamio Pro and use its Slide Pro remote for my Mini.
> 
> Does anyone know then if the Slide Pro will work with Hydra on a Mini V1?
> 
> ...


The issue is with the original BT Slide Remote and the Mini V1. It is entirely accurate to state that the 20.7.4 release KILLED the BT Slide Remote - period. The Mini V1 will simply not respond to it. This is a documented, confirmed, repeatable issue which Tivo has still to date not taken responsibility for. If you call Tivo directly, you will typically get the first response that they've "never heard of this issue before". Upon escalation, you'll finally get a lukewarm acknowledgement of the issue, and if you push hard enough, a promise to replace at least one or more of the BT Slide remotes with Slide Pro remotes.

The Slide Pro remotes work fine with Mini V1 units. You don't get any additional functionality, but they'll work. If this happens, make SURE that you explicitly specify that you need the dongle, as reps will often (even after escalation) try to send just the remote - which will work perfectly with Roamio and Bolt units, but won't work with a Mini V1 without the dongle.

As an early "discoverer" of this new "feature", I was forced to purchase a Slide Pro directly from Tivo out of pocket - replacing one of my remotes. Later, after several hours of discussion, I was able to get the remaining units replaced, but Tivo refused to refund me for the unnecessary purchase of the first Slide Pro - even after having proven that it was the release that killed their own hardware. This is why I can factually state that the 20.7.4 release cost me cold hard cash out of my pocket, due to poor quality assurance and customer service.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

wbrightfl said:


> I think its fine to have 2 different platforms to choose from.


I don't. Tivo obviously has issues releasing quality software updates with just one platform. When you start code branches, it without question doesn't make regression and integration testing easier- it makes it more difficult. So, when quality is already suspect (to say the least) I'm not excited about the idea that development resources and efforts will not be distracted by having to deal with multiple UIs.

To that end, it seems extraordinarily unlikely to me that Hydra will remain "optional". Seems to me that it's just their strategy which will inevitably result in moving everyone to Hydra.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Typically, with these new releases that are based on a stable software branch, ...


@TiVo_Ted, I couldn't tell from your reply whether you recognized that the OP's complaints were directed NOT at the Hydra/gen4 software but at 20.7.2 and the subsequent .4 release that introduced a number of bugs -- in addition to the HD UI normalization.

It sounds like 20.7.4 has a significant live TV buffer bug (altered behavior; see here) and an issue with the original Slide remotes (see here), to name a few.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Was there any real change to the Bolt's interface? (Assuming you don't have Hydra, of course.)

I don't know what I'm running now, but I don't remember anything changing since I activated my Bolt maybe 14 months ago.


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

TiVo_Ted said:


> On behalf of TiVo, I am sorry that you are dissatisfied with the quality of our latest update. Typically, with these new releases that are based on a stable software branch, we strive to deliver bugs fixes, performance improvements and usability enhancements that come from thorough user testing. We also try to deliver some new features and functionality that are prioritized based on feedback we receive from customers like yourself.
> 
> There is sometimes a trade-off between the new features and the capabilities of the underlying hardware. Many people talked about the performance hit to our system when we upgraded from an SD to an HD user interface. Ultimately, this is why we decided not to try to release gen4/Hydra to Premiere devices. We felt like the performance fell below the bar of acceptable. Graphics demands, memory footprint, network latency, etc. were just too much for hardware that was designed 7-8 years ago.
> 
> ...


I hope work is not already at a full-stop for gen3. Even if there aren't any new features, people are having some issues and it would be bad form to leave them hanging permanently.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

I think TiVo bit the bullet for a year and we suffered through the Rovi guide issues but Hydra seems to have better descriptions now. I haven't noticed yr and episode numbers but I think they are correct now. Maybe TiVo never winked and said"wait for hydra and your guide issues will improve".


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## BigJimOutlaw (Mar 21, 2004)

Puppy76 said:


> Was there any real change to the Bolt's interface? (Assuming you don't have Hydra, of course.)
> 
> I don't know what I'm running now, but I don't remember anything changing since I activated my Bolt maybe 14 months ago.


The update was more dramatic for Mini, Premiere, and Roamio owners. This summer the Bolt's menus were only slightly reorganized (like moving apps under one menu), while those folks "caught up" to the Bolt UI in one big step.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

krkaufman said:


> @TiVo_Ted, I couldn't tell from your reply whether you recognized that the OP's complaints were directed NOT at the Hydra/gen4 software but at 20.7.2 and the subsequent .4 release that introduced a number of bugs -- in addition to the HD UI normalization.
> It sounds like 20.7.4 has a significant live TV buffer bug (altered behavior) and an issue with Slide remotes (see here), to name a few.


It took me two days to see the "August" in the poll description. The bright white is worse on a Premiere, but I seldom use that box. I think the extra brightness is due to the SD menus.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

krkaufman said:


> @TiVo_Ted, I couldn't tell from your reply whether you recognized that the OP's complaints were directed NOT at the Hydra/gen4 software but at 20.7.2 and the subsequent .4 release that introduced a number of bugs -- in addition to the HD UI normalization.
> 
> It sounds like 20.7.4 has a significant live TV buffer bug (altered behavior) and an issue with Slide remotes (see here), to name a few.


Thanks for pointing that out. I did notice that, which is why I said this kind of harsh negative feedback doesn't usually come in from a dot-release off a stable software branch. The rest of my statements were more philosophical and less tied to a specific release.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The update was more dramatic for Mini, Premiere, and Roamio owners. This summer the Bolt's menus were only slightly reorganized (like moving apps under one menu), while those folks "caught up" to the Bolt UI in one big step.


Oooh okay, thanks! Yeah, now that you describe it, I do remember some minor menu organization changes, which were pretty forgettable on the Bolt.

As a *HUGE* fan of the S2/S3 interface, I overall like the Bolt's interface even more...which is REALLY saying something!


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

mattyro7878 said:


> I think TiVo bit the bullet for a year and we suffered through the Rovi guide issues but Hydra seems to have better descriptions now. I haven't noticed yr and episode numbers but I think they are correct now. Maybe TiVo never winked and said"wait for hydra and your guide issues will improve".


Check The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. It is still Season 2 with TiVo. It's Season 3 with Nielsen. The Tonight Show has been fixed.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> The issue is with the original BT Slide Remote and the Mini V1. It is entirely accurate to state that the 20.7.4 release KILLED the BT Slide Remote - period. The Mini V1 will simply not respond to it. This is a documented, confirmed, repeatable issue which Tivo has still to date not taken responsibility for. If you call Tivo directly, you will typically get the first response that they've "never heard of this issue before". Upon escalation, you'll finally get a lukewarm acknowledgement of the issue, and if you push hard enough, a promise to replace at least one or more of the BT Slide remotes with Slide Pro remotes.
> 
> The Slide Pro remotes work fine with Mini V1 units. You don't get any additional functionality, but they'll work. If this happens, make SURE that you explicitly specify that you need the dongle, as reps will often (even after escalation) try to send just the remote - which will work perfectly with Roamio and Bolt units, but won't work with a Mini V1 without the dongle.
> 
> As an early "discoverer" of this new "feature", I was forced to purchase a Slide Pro directly from Tivo out of pocket - replacing one of my remotes. Later, after several hours of discussion, I was able to get the remaining units replaced, but Tivo refused to refund me for the unnecessary purchase of the first Slide Pro - even after having proven that it was the release that killed their own hardware. This is why I can factually state that the 20.7.4 release cost me cold hard cash out of my pocket, due to poor quality assurance and customer service.


Can you please DM me with some more background on this issue? We're working to improve our customer support, and it sounds like we fell short here. I'd also like to understand what is broken and when it broke. Also, you mention the BT Slide Remote, but I thought the Slide Remote was RF4CE based?

We are trying to address the whole dongle issue with the VOX Remote. Now, there is a SKU with the dongle, and a SKU without. And, we've tried to make it extremely clear which one you need based on what device you want to use it with. My assumption is that consumers can figure this out on their own better than some of the service reps. And, if you order the one that comes with a dongle, there better be a dongle in there!


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

BigJimOutlaw said:


> The update was more dramatic for Mini, Premiere, and Roamio owners. This summer the Bolt's menus were only slightly reorganized (like moving apps under one menu), while those folks "caught up" to the Bolt UI in one big step.


That is correct. Our goal is to have the interface on the MINI be as close to the DVR interface as possible. Customers have told us loud-and-clear that they want all of their TiVo interfaces to look the same in every room.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Can you please DM me with some more background on this issue? We're working to improve our customer support, and it sounds like we fell short here. I'd also like to understand what is broken and when it broke. Also, you mention the BT Slide Remote, but I thought the Slide Remote was RF4CE based?
> 
> We are trying to address the whole dongle issue with the VOX Remote. Now, there is a SKU with the dongle, and a SKU without. And, we've tried to make it extremely clear which one you need based on what device you want to use it with. My assumption is that consumers can figure this out on their own better than some of the service reps. And, if you order the one that comes with a dongle, there better be a dongle in there!


PM sent with specific details. This has nothing to do with the VOX remote, other than a suggestion that it was the development related to VOX that killed the BT slide remote. And the issue with the dongle is not with customer. It's with Tivo CSRs not knowing their products.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Can you please DM me with some more background on this issue? We're working to improve our customer support, and it sounds like we fell short here. I'd also like to understand what is broken and when it broke. Also, you mention the BT Slide Remote, but I thought the Slide Remote was RF4CE based?
> 
> We are trying to address the whole dongle issue with the VOX Remote. Now, there is a SKU with the dongle, and a SKU without. And, we've tried to make it extremely clear which one you need based on what device you want to use it with. My assumption is that consumers can figure this out on their own better than some of the service reps. And, if you order the one that comes with a dongle, there better be a dongle in there!


PM sent with specific details. This has nothing to do with the VOX remote, other than a suggestion that it was the development related to VOX that killed the BT slide remote. And the issue with the dongle is not with customer. It's with Tivo CSRs not knowing their products.


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## foghorn2 (May 4, 2004)

I look at it this way, with the last updates on my roamios, I got the new Bolt interface, with Hydra, I got 3 brand new DVR's. In turn I give back by purchasing new minis and remotes.

its a Win Win situation, what other company does this?

I still have a real bolt in the closet waiting for activation.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> To that end, it seems extraordinarily unlikely to me that Hydra will remain "optional". Seems to me that it's just their strategy which will inevitably result in moving everyone to Hydra.


 Based on what? Your desire to find all things TiVo terrible ? After over 7 years people can still run the old SDUI on their Premieres if they choose.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> PM sent with specific details. This has nothing to do with the VOX remote, other than a suggestion that it was the development related to VOX that killed the BT slide remote. And the issue with the dongle is not with customer. It's with Tivo CSRs not knowing their products.


Thanks for sending your info. I realize this is not about the VOX Remote. My point was that we heard the complaints about the dongle not being sent properly, etc. with earlier remotes and we've tried to address this in our new remote product by being totally explicit about when you need a dongle, and how you get it.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> PM sent with specific details. This has nothing to do with the VOX remote, other than a suggestion that it was the development related to VOX that killed the BT slide remote..


If the original Slide remote was truly *Bluetooth*, then I would start wondering whether the 20.7.4 update that enabled the functionality of the VOX Remote's Bluetooth (BLE) dongle may have created a conflict in Bluetooth support. (The VOX Remote BLE support must have been added to 20.7.4, since connecting a VOX Remote is a supposed trigger for updating a DVR or Mini to Hydra/gen4.)


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Based on what? Your desire to find all things TiVo terrible ? After over 7 years people can still run the old SDUI on their Premieres if they choose.


There is almost no comparison between the SDUI and HDUI and the current 20.7.4 UI and Hydra. However, note that I said "it seems" - as in if I were betting, that's what I'd bet on. Maintaining two completely different UIs carries a great deal of cost from a development and QA perspective. Given the financial realities, "it seems" very unlikely that both will be carried. I didn't say it was a fact.

Emoticons aside, it is a factual reality that it is more expensive to permanently maintain both. Note that I'm not even saying they would be wrong in standardizing on one. You're the one making it a negative.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Thanks for sending your info. I realize this is not about the VOX Remote. My point was that we heard the complaints about the dongle not being sent properly, etc. with earlier remotes and we've tried to address this in our new remote product by being totally explicit about when you need a dongle, and how you get it.


Ted, thank you for your interest - sincerely.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

krkaufman said:


> If the original Slide remote was truly *Bluetooth*, then I would start wondering whether the 20.7.4 update that enabled the functionality of the VOX Remote's Bluetooth (BLE) dongle may have created a conflict in Bluetooth support. (The VOX Remote BLE support must have been added to 20.7.4, since connecting a VOX Remote is a supposed trigger for updating a DVR or Mini to Hydra/gen4.)


That is exactly what has been suggested in the threads specifically about the remote issues following 20.7.4.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

foghorn2 said:


> I look at it this way, with the last updates on my roamios, I got the new Bolt interface, with Hydra, I got 3 brand new DVR's.


Out of curiosity, is there a bullet list, anywhere, summarizing the new features in Hydra/gen4? I'm curious if there's any truly "new" functionality, as distinct from "same functionality, different format."

(Voice support, as a start, of course...)


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> That is exactly what has been suggested in the threads specifically about the remote issues following 20.7.4.


Then the answer to @TiVo_Ted's previous question...


TiVo_Ted said:


> Also, you mention the BT Slide Remote, but I thought the Slide Remote was RF4CE based?


... must be "the original Slide remote -- distinct from the current Slide Pro -- used Bluetooth," and pointing Ted at the referenced threads would likely facilitate any effort Ted might be able to put forward on behalf of Slide remote owners.

e.g. TiVo support documentation on the original TiVo Slide Remote (discontinued), stating that it uses Bluetooth:

https://support.tivo.com/articles/Product_Information/TiVo-Slide-Remote-Discontinued-Product-Info

The TiVo Slide remote is a plug-and-play QWERTY keyboard remote that makes your TiVo DVR even easier to use. *The keyboard works by sending Bluetooth signals* to a USB receiver that is installed in the TiVo DVR.
​

p.s. Note, also, the opening comments from the article:

This article refers to a discontinued accessory that is no longer available.

For information about the current TiVo Slide Pro remote, see TiVo Slide Pro Remote: Product Info.
​


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> I don't. Tivo obviously has issues releasing quality software updates with just one platform. When you start code branches, it without question doesn't make regression and integration testing easier- it makes it more difficult.


I'd imgine that Hydra will eventually become pushed but who knows when that will be?

The move to update everyone to a consistent look and feel (code base) this summer was to enable Hydra but I would think it was also to consolidate as much as possible to allow Hydra to be optional for some amount of time.

Tivo has had code branches since almost day one. The summer consolidation probably made those code branches at the lowest number in years.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

krkaufman said:


> Then the answer to @TiVo_Ted's previous question...
> ​... must be "the original Slide remote -- distinct from the current Slide Pro -- used Bluetooth," and pointing Ted at the referenced threads would likely facilitate any effort Ted might be able to put forward on behalf of Slide remote owners.
> 
> e.g. TiVo support documentation on the original TiVo Slide Remote (discontinued), stating that it uses Bluetooth:
> ...


I already provided detailed information to Ted in a PM, as per his request.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Emoticons aside, it is a factual reality that it is more expensive to permanently maintain both. Note that I'm not even saying they would be wrong in standardizing on one. You're the one making it a negative.


Code differences are code differences. In fact, it can be more costly to have multiple code bases that are very similar, as has been the case with the plethora of differences for all the platforms prior to this summer. It is easier to make mistakes, especially if there is code sharing but not enough and it leads to misunderstadings in code development, testing and support if things are alike but different. It is actually easier to manage two completely different setups if they are truly different. I have been through software evolution and revolution many times in a support role. I prefer revolution.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> I'd imgine that Hydra will eventually become pushed but who knows when that will be?
> 
> The move to update everyone to a consistent look and feel (code base) this summer was to enable Hydra but I would think it was also to consolidate as much as possible to allow Hydra to be optional for some amount of time.
> 
> Tivo has had code branches since almost day one. The summer consolidation probably made those code branches at the lowest number in years.


Note that I never even suggested "when" the consolidation would be.

And again, we're talking much more significant differences than the code variation that we've experienced in the back. I would extraordinarily strongly disagree with the suggestion that the current code variation is "low" compared to the past.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Note that I never even suggested "when" the consolidation would be.
> 
> And again, we're talking much more significant differences than the code variation that we've experienced in the back. I would extraordinarily strongly disagree with the suggestion that the current code variation is "low" compared to the past.


Low? I said lowest in terms of fewer.Not that the variance between the code bases are low. That there are now fewer of them.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> Code differences are code differences.* In fact, it can be more costly to have multiple code bases that are very similar*, as has been the case with the plethora of differences for all the platforms prior to this summer. It is easier to make mistakes, especially if there is code sharing but not enough and it leads to misunderstadings in code development, testing and support if things are alike but different. It is actually easier to manage two completely different setups if they are truly different. I have been through software evolution and revolution many times in a support role. I prefer revolution.


I really can't even start to comment on this. And for the record, I"ve been through software development, QA, release, hosting and support from an engineering, design, architecture AND support perspective for years.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> I really can't even start to comment on this. And for the record, I"ve been through software development, QA, release, hosting and support from an engineering, design, architecture AND support perspective for years.


Well, feel the way you feel. I have been doing that kind of work since 1983 and think you are better off with clean breaks than slight variations. I didn't bother to list all my credentials and won't now because that is boring to people. So, don't talk down to me. My experience of over 40 years says clean breaks are easier to manage long term than slight variations.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. You - not me - brought up your experience, so it's fair game, trying to "talk down" based on your experience. Don't start crying when somebody else just might have more - and more direct - experience - including actually software development, architecture and engineering. 

The point remains regardless of what "degree" of variation is. Multiple UIs are more complex, expensive, and difficult to maintain - and to date, Tivo isn't necessarily an example of CMM level 4 development.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

What do the current remotes use? Is it secure? I think I read something about Zigby? 

I'm VERY concerned about the security of my TiVo and my TV (I quit using an Amazon Fire TV because it uses Wifi direct and implements it so that it's ALWAYS in pairing mode! completely insecure). I don't trust that my TV nor TiVo are doing wireless right either, but what choice do I have? Give up TV and games?!?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

wmhjr said:


> Everybody is entitled to an opinion. You - not me - brought up your experience, so it's fair game, trying to "talk down" based on your experience. Don't start crying when somebody else just might have more - and more direct - experience - including actually software development, architecture and engineering.
> 
> The point remains regardless of what "degree" of variation is. Multiple UIs are more complex, expensive, and difficult to maintain - and to date, Tivo isn't necessarily an example of CMM level 4 development.


NO! You ASSUMED you have more because I didn't wave it in your face like you did me.

And, you aren't getting it. The differences among the Tivo platforms ARE different GUIs. They were not the same at all until this summer. So much for your experience that doesn't understand that a difference is a difference. You are acting like the plethora of differences from the series 1 to the Bolt (which were all supported until recently as different code bases) were minimal or non-existent.

I am done with you on this. Your attitude has angered me and you are not worth it.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TonyD79 said:


> NO! You ASSUMED you have more because I didn't wave it in your face like you did me.
> 
> And, you aren't getting it. The differences among the Tivo platforms ARE different GUIs. They were not the same at all until this summer. So much for your experience that doesn't understand that a difference is a difference. You are acting like the plethora of differences from the series 1 to the Bolt (which were all supported until recently as different code bases) were minimal or non-existent.
> 
> I am done with you on this. Your attitude has angered me and you are not worth it.


Thank you for being "done" with it. I never mentioned my background until you threw your "years of experience" in post 51 and 55 out there. Then you cry that somebody is talking down to you. Sorry for that. LIke I said, everybody has a right to an opinion - regardless of how much - or little - relevant experience they have. You also somehow conveniently (or maybe just not realizing the significant) fail to note that for what are effectively embedded devices, technically different software versions per device are not really code branches. Those are different products. But nonetheless, the point has been made.


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## The Merg (Dec 2, 2007)

OK. So this is with the Slide remote and not the Slide Pro then, right? 

The issue I am having with my Slide Pro with the Mini is that it works for one button press and after that the light stays a solid yellow and nothing works. If I remove the batteries and wait for a bit, it will then work again for one button press. Using the regular IR remote works without issue.

And I thought the Slide and Slide Pro remotes use RF and not BT.

- Merg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

The Merg said:


> OK. So this is with the Slide remote and not the Slide Pro then, right?
> 
> The issue I am having with my Slide Pro with the Mini is that it works for one button press and after that the light stays a solid yellow and nothing works. If I remove the batteries and wait for a bit, it will then work again for one button press. Using the regular IR remote works without issue.
> 
> ...


Slide remote - original BT related. Not Slide Pro. The Slide Pro seems to work fine. And to be more accurate, I think the issue was restricted to the old BT based Slide Remote and the Mini V1 - but I am not sure if it extended beyond that to the BT based original Slide remote and other boxes.


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

The Merg said:


> OK. So this is with the Slide remote and not the Slide Pro then, right?


Correct. No problem for Slide Pro owners. (In fact, TiVo is apparently opting to ship Slide Pro remotes, gratis, to those Slide owners affected by the issue.)



The Merg said:


> And I thought the Slide and Slide Pro remotes use RF and not BT.



Slide => Bluetooth
Slide Pro => RF4CE
Both can also do IR, of course, but the keyboard functionality requires RF/BT mode.


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## The Merg (Dec 2, 2007)

wmhjr said:


> Slide remote - original BT related. Not Slide Pro. The Slide Pro seems to work fine. And to be more accurate, I think the issue was restricted to the old BT based Slide Remote and the Mini V1 - but I am not sure if it extended beyond that to the BT based original Slide remote and other boxes.


Gotcha. Didn't realize there was a BT Slide remote. So, I guess my Slide Pro really is dead then.

- Merg

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

krkaufman said:


> Correct. No problem for Slide Pro owners. (In fact, TiVo is apparently opting to ship Slide Pro remotes, gratis, to those Slide owners affected by the issue.)
> .


Correction: If you call and complain loud enough, and escalate, Tivo "may" ship replacement Slide Pro remotes to deal with this. Not always, and not necessarily on a 1 to 1 basis. Tivo is actually opting to not say anything, to tell you when you call that they are unaware of the issue, to force you to go through a bunch of troubleshooting, to initially deny it, then to tell you that they can only send one (regardless of how many they have), and then ultimately to possibly send more. Your post makes it seem as though they are shipping a new product out of the kindness of their heart, easily and immediately, with no argument.

If you check the other thread actually about this, you'll see some significant variation on how helpful Tivo has been about this.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

BTW, I understand the issue why Tivo might not want to be very public about this. First, it doesn't look good, and second, they don't want to be "giving away" any more Slide Pros than necessary. However, the fact remains that they in fact actually killed the BT Slide remote for Mini V1 users, so it seems as though they could have addressed this by just asking for the TSN of the mini in question up front, and THEN dealing with it proactively. Additionally, it could have been published in a KB, so people with the issue could avoid needless and useless troubleshooting for an issue Tivo is clearly aware of.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

krkaufman said:


> Then the answer to @TiVo_Ted's previous question...
> ​... must be "the original Slide remote -- distinct from the current Slide Pro -- used Bluetooth," and pointing Ted at the referenced threads would likely facilitate any effort Ted might be able to put forward on behalf of Slide remote owners.
> 
> e.g. TiVo support documentation on the original TiVo Slide Remote (discontinued), stating that it uses Bluetooth:
> ...


Thanks for sending these links. I now understand that the original Slide remote used Bluetooth and came with a Bluetooth dongle that used a proprietary connection mode. As far as I can tell, this first gen Slide Remote does not work with devices that have Bluetooth built in (BOLT, BOLT+, BOLT VOX and MINI VOX). The new VOX Remote (Bluetooth Low Energy) will not work with this old Bluetooth dongle. This old Slide remote will not work with the new Bluetooth dongle that is included with some VOX Remotes.

With the Slide Pro remote, we switched over to RF4CE (aka ZigBee). This new Slide Pro remote works with Premiere and MINI v1 with a dongle. It also works with Roamio, BOLT and MINI v2 devices without the dongle.

It sounds like we have 2 compatibility issues that have been reported:
- Slide remote on 1st gen MINI running 20.7.4 (latest gen3 release)
- Slide Pro remote on MINI VOX running 20.7.4 (gen3) or 21.7.2 (gen4)

I am looking into these issues to see what happens and what we can do to resolve. We already know that RF and BT devices can co-exist on the same box. One other corner case I'm going to look into is whether a MINI or Roamio can support both a BT Slide remote and BT VOX Remote with 2 different Bluetooth dongles.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

wmhjr said:


> Correction: If you call and complain loud enough, and escalate, Tivo "may" ship replacement Slide Pro remotes to deal with this. Not always, and not necessarily on a 1 to 1 basis. Tivo is actually opting to not say anything, to tell you when you call that they are unaware of the issue, to force you to go through a bunch of troubleshooting, to initially deny it, then to tell you that they can only send one (regardless of how many they have), and then ultimately to possibly send more. Your post makes it seem as though they are shipping a new product out of the kindness of their heart, easily and immediately, with no argument.
> 
> If you check the other thread actually about this, you'll see some significant variation on how helpful Tivo has been about this.


Don't confuse lack of knowledge with intent


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Don't confuse lack of knowledge with intent


Ted, I'm not. I simply can't comprehend that CSRs have zero access to previously reported issues, or that perhaps the knowledge management system they're using is so weak that a simple search of the issues wouldn't bring a known defect forward. For the first time or so that it's reported - I absolutely get that. But when weeks go by and others have reported it, it's a little hard to see that Tivo isn't aware of it.

Again, I do appreciate your interest. Just pointing out that it sure seems as though Tivo is aware, and if the Tivo CSRs aren't, then that points to yet another issue.


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

TiVo_Ted said:


> On behalf of TiVo, I am sorry that you are dissatisfied with the quality of our latest update. Typically, with these new releases that are based on a stable software branch, we strive to deliver bugs fixes, performance improvements and usability enhancements that come from thorough user testing. We also try to deliver some new features and functionality that are prioritized based on feedback we receive from customers like yourself.
> 
> There is sometimes a trade-off between the new features and the capabilities of the underlying hardware. Many people talked about the performance hit to our system when we upgraded from an SD to an HD user interface. Ultimately, this is why we decided not to try to release gen4/Hydra to Premiere devices. We felt like the performance fell below the bar of acceptable. Graphics demands, memory footprint, network latency, etc. were just too much for hardware that was designed 7-8 years ago.
> 
> ...


I have gotten somewhat used to the mono-color of the 20.7.4.RC-2 firmware. However, I am a "contrast impaired" vision person due to a side effect of early Lasik vision eye correction. The YELLOW contrast of the previous version was WONDERFUL and very easy to see. I know I'm NOT the only "contrast impaired" person out there using a Tivo.

Is there ANY chance that we can have an optional switch added to this version, so that if we choose, we can revert the menus and such back to the Yellow contrast?


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## krkaufman (Nov 25, 2003)

wmhjr said:


> Your post makes it seem as though they are shipping a new product out of the kindness of their heart, easily and immediately, with no argument.
> ...
> If you check the other thread actually about this, you'll see some significant variation on how helpful Tivo has been about this.


My post provides a link to another post scoping 'gratis', including the qualification that the customer may need to escalate the issue.


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## wbrightfl (Oct 31, 2013)

MikeBear said:


> Is there ANY chance that we can have an optional switch added to this version, so that if we choose, we can revert the menus and such back to the Yellow contrast?


I also requested this 3 times from support. I was told that in time I would get used to the improved modern UI. I am used to it, but don't enjoy it like I did in the previous version, which in my view was much easier to see with the yellow highlight bar. Would be great if they listen and give us an option to select the color theme. Keep the menu structure the same, but allow the color theme choice. It would please all of us which loved that version of the UI.


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## zalusky (Apr 5, 2002)

MikeBear said:


> I have gotten somewhat used to the mono-color of the 20.7.4.RC-2 firmware. However, I am a "contrast impaired" vision person due to a side effect of early Lasik vision eye correction. The YELLOW contrast of the previous version was WONDERFUL and very easy to see. I know I'm NOT the only "contrast impaired" person out there using a Tivo.
> 
> Is there ANY chance that we can have an optional switch added to this version, so that if we choose, we can revert the menus and such back to the Yellow contrast?


I personally think one of the reasons to go to white from the yellow color was there have been reports of burn in on OLED screens related to logos especially the yellow and red colors prematurely aging since they take more energy.
Even though I got rid of my burned LG B6 as a result, I am happy to see content providers and set top manufacturers start to play a little nicer.


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

zalusky said:


> I personally think one of the reasons to go to white from the yellow color was there have been reports of burn in on OLED screens related to logos especially the yellow and red colors prematurely aging since they take more energy.
> Even though I got rid of my burned LG B6 as a result, I am happy to see content providers and set top manufacturers start to p0lay a little nicer.


Well, if they *add a switch* so you can chose EITHER, then we all win! As for people with contrast-impaired vision, this new layout causes eye strain and headaches for us.


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## DVR_Dave (Apr 19, 2017)

TiVo_Ted said:


> With the Slide Pro remote, we switched over to RF4CE (aka ZigBee). This new Slide Pro remote works with Premiere and MINI *[v1] *with a dongle. It also works with Roamio, *MINI v2*, and BOLT devices without the dongle.


Corrections in *bold*.


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## trip1eX (Apr 2, 2005)

only thing I noticed was it looked a little different than before.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

randywalters said:


> Or it could be that he joined back then to learn about his new Tivo and was able to find everything he needed by searching and reading existing threads, and never felt the need to post until now. I read AVS for a few years before finally registering in 2002, and i didn't start actually posting until several months later. Same for other car forums i'm on. Looks like the OP is finally fed up with 20.7.4, but even with the problems it's not worth dumping Tivo for.


OMG! Parallel universes us two! 
My brother from another mother!
Nice to meet you finally.
You've got it exactly right.
I did exactly the same on AV forums and my auto forums.
But for some reason this may have been my second post.
I think my first one was lost in the last 3-4 years. Perhaps a DB restore?

I spend the majority of my time interacting on stackoverflow,
Linux forums, and my internal employer forums,
such as at Apple and other ex-employers. Not here.

By posting, I am trying to reach the management mishaps at Rovi before they completely eef up a good thing.

The naysayers are very funny people!
Peanut gallery. True dat.
Please... stick to stock speculation, would ya! I want to be on the other side of your trades. Haha!

As far as credentials: I have ten years User experience starting with the Series 2.
That's approx 2006. Back then, I swapped the disk with a giant one and copied the OS to it. I know my way around this neighborhood.

In my experience, Tivo User experience never had the behavior where you were required to watch your saved content from My Shows if you were merely lagging the exact time of day and you were still within the boundaries of the start and end time of a show being recorded. If it did behave in this broken way, then the following scenario would occur. While you were watching a sporting event like a basketball game, and you were lagging by two quarters, as soon as the wall-time equaled the end of the recording period, you would be dropped into the first minute of the "After Game highlights". That's insane. Who wants to know who the winner is when you are in the middle of the game?

The Tivo User experience used to do what the User would have expected in most cases.

Like, who wants to wait 3-10 seconds (very variable) to go from slow motion (or pause) to play?
The platform has been damaged in so many ways with that update that I wonder what is truly going on inside of Rovi. Does the company not have a qualified QA group or is management just effing blowing it? That's what I am trying to figure out. Heads should roll.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

I've seen nothing like that going from pause to play, and it's always been the case the you don't really want to watch "live" TV, like even if you find something live you want to hit record and then drill in to your recordings list.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

Puppy76 said:


> I've seen nothing like that going from pause to play, and it's always been the case the you don't really want to watch "live" TV, like even if you find something live you want to hit record and then drill in to your recordings list.


Hi Puppy76,

Could you please restate what you are saying after you say, "and it's always been the case..."? I did not understand that part of what you said. Could you take a moment to expand on the 2nd part of your comment? Are you responding to something I said or another member?

Yes, it's true on the Roamio with a Comcast card, there are variable length massive delays (2 to 9 or 10 seconds) when the play button is pushed after a rewind, pause, slow-mo, or fast-forward. It used to be relatively instant or close enough.

Thank you.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

avaddict said:


> Hi Puppy76,
> 
> Could you please restate what you are saying after you say, "and it's always been the case..."? I did not understand that part of what you said. Could you take a moment to expand on the 2nd part of your comment? Are you responding to something I said or another member?
> 
> ...


Huh, I wonder what causes that? I've never used cablecard, I use broadcast TV and don't get anything like a pause or anything at all. Could it be like fewer key frames in cable content than broadcast? I know they super compress everything for cable.

Also I think I recall something about that being possible with some audio output options? I just use HDMI.

Regarding watching "live" TV, on TiVo you've always wanted to record something instead of watching it "live" (which is of course really a recording anyway). Like you'd just hit the record button, go to your shows list, and start watching from there.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

Puppy76 said:


> Huh, I wonder what causes that? I've never used cablecard, I use broadcast TV and don't get anything like a pause or anything at all. Could it be like fewer key frames in cable content than broadcast? I know they super compress everything for cable.
> 
> Also I think I recall something about that being possible with some audio output options? I just use HDMI.
> 
> Regarding watching "live" TV, on TiVo you've always wanted to record something instead of watching it "live" (which is of course really a recording anyway). Like you'd just hit the record button, go to your shows list, and start watching from there.


Interesting points. I would not be surprised if some bug there with Comcast card and Tivo system.

I also use HDMI out.

There is also a use case for setting a show recording prior to the event; then begin watching one hour into the 3 hour event. This used to work the way the User would have expected. User does not expect to be booted out of their show just because the wall clock went from 7:59:59 to 8:00:00.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

avaddict said:


> There is also a use case for setting a show recording prior to the event; then begin watching one hour into the 3 hour event. This used to work the way the User would have expected. User does not expecte to be booted out of their show just because the wall clock went from 7:59:59 to 8:00:00.


Not sure what you mean...like for a live event? You may need to add time if it's live (or even if it isn't), which is easy to do and the TiVo prompts you about if it knows a recording is a live event.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

Puppy76 said:


> Not sure what you mean...like for a live event? You may need to add time if it's live (or even if it isn't), which is easy to do and the TiVo prompts you about if it knows a recording is a live event.


I do not recall using the term live. I think you may have injected the Tivo Term referring to "live event" but I am not talking about that. I am taking about general usage.

If you are watching a program (which you set to record on a prior day) that started at 5pm and ends at 8pm. You begin watching that program at 6pm. So, presuming you do not fast forward, by the wall time, you will reach the end of this content at 9pm. Follow me?

That is not what is happening with the User experience now. It boots the User out of the content at 8pm.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

avaddict said:


> I do not recall using the term live. I think you may have injected the Tivo Term referring to "live event" but I am not talking about that. I am taking about general usage.
> 
> If you are watching a program (which you set to record on a prior day) that started at 5pm and ends at 8pm. You begin watching that program at 6pm. So, presuming you do not fast forward, by the wall time, you will reach the end of this content at 9pm. Follow me?
> 
> That is not what is happening with the User experience now. It boots the User out of the content at 8pm.


I did not have this happen last night. I watched the Flash and Legends of tomorrow. I started watching both shows after they first aired, and was still in the middle of watching each show when they ended. I never got kicked out.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

I modified the poll so that if a User wanted to change their vote to reflect a new understanding of the issues, that is possible.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> I did not have this happen last night....


Thanks! It's encouraging to know that these things are not happening across all hardware platforms.

Assuming of course, you were not watching on the Roamio hardware. :-\


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

avaddict said:


> If you are watching a program (which you set to record on a prior day) that started at 5pm and ends at 8pm. You begin watching that program at 6pm. So, presuming you do not fast forward, by the wall time, you will reach the end of this content at 9pm. Follow me?
> 
> That is not what is happening with the User experience now. It boots the User out of the content at 8pm.


And you're initiating playback from "MyShows?"


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

GmanTiVo said:


> yes indeed, the level of suck went up again, hard to be a middle age fan of TiVo these days.
> 
> Who are the [email protected] idiots TiVo hires to make these changes, seems like we ar in the hands of people whom never used a TiVo for a long time and are bent on changing the experience and interactivity into some new aseptic & watered down way
> 
> Once again 1 step forward, 3 steps back


I'm enjoying most of the communication that is happening on TC, and appreciate the feedback and suggestions we are getting in order to help make TiVo a better product. Out of curiosity, are there guidelines around calling people names? It doesn't feel very constructive.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm enjoying most of the communication that is happening on TC, and appreciate the feedback and suggestions we are getting in order to help make TiVo a better product. Out of curiosity, are there guidelines around calling people names? It doesn't feel very constructive.


I wish. But after a while you learn to filter out the noise & find out who is who. Also, if you click on a person's message count you can read all their posts. That may give you an idea of their "feelings".

If it's serious you can use "report", but that's very subjective. I do think there is something in the water in Florida though.


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## Mikeguy (Jul 28, 2005)

JoeKustra said:


> I wish. But after a while *you learn to filter out the noise* & find out who is who. Also, if you click on a person's message count you can read all their posts. That may give you an idea of their "feelings".
> 
> If it's serious you can use "report", but that's very subjective. I do think there is something in the water in Florida though.


Wait, there's a filter button?!? Is it one of the A - B - C - D buttons?


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

TiVo_Ted said:


> I'm enjoying most of the communication that is happening on TC, and appreciate the feedback and suggestions we are getting in order to help make TiVo a better product. Out of curiosity, are there guidelines around calling people names? It doesn't feel very constructive.


On the menu above, click on "Help" then on "Terms and Rules" and you can read the rules under "Community Guidelines". I posted this earlier when you first posted this, but a mod wiped both our posts at that time for some reason...


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## radtechy (Aug 16, 2008)

I have not seen one problem with the August update it works great on my Roamio and to be honest I don’t really watch tv on the 2 premiers in my home but I haven’t got any complaints from the family. I like the white that replaced that stale yellow and the HD menus


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

MikeBear said:


> Is there ANY chance that we can have an optional switch added to this version, so that if we choose, we can revert the menus and such back to the Yellow contrast?


I came late to this thread. I know you been with Tivo for a long time. You know they are not User Option Friendly, but from reading, at least you can map the number buttons to functions. Now thats an improvement. Also the bigger video window and no audio cutout anymore.

Thats progress. But I still won't go to this without a Live Guide and the bugs fixed...


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

atmuscarella said:


> Based on what? Your desire to find all things TiVo terrible ? After over 7 years people can still run the old SDUI on their Premieres if they choose.


I hit the wrong button...LOL.

I bought an XL4 in 05-2012 and in 16 months I traded it in for a Roamio Pro. Had to run it in SD mode to make it work good and still slow (DVR played fine!).

I recently bought a LS XL4 for storage and I am running it in good ole SD mode...

They will keep Gen3 for a long time. Many people will not give up working tivos!!!


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

idksmy said:


> Someone, with their first post, whining on the Internet, with a poll, what a surprise. Seems legit to me.


Oh my. Many people are on here and not enjoying their Tivo....


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

samccfl99 said:


> Oh my. Many people are on here and not enjoying their Tivo....


Oh my. Many people are on here, and not on here, and they are enjoying their TiVo...Forums are, by and large, populated by people with complaints, some who make a complaint their first post.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

dianebrat said:


> If you want to complain about 20.7.4 just wait until you see Hydra, that's a whole nuther level of "hey they ruined my Tivo" complaints


oh yikes, I thought that's what they WERE complaining about. (I have purposely not, and likely WON'T enable Hydra..)


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

idksmy said:


> Oh my. Many people are on here, and not on here, and they are enjoying their TiVo...Forums are, by and large, populated by people with complaints, some who make a complaint their first post.


Tivos, and Rivos, and bears oh my.  Wait...bears??


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

avaddict said:


> There is also a use case for setting a show recording prior to the event; then begin watching one hour into the 3 hour event. This used to work the way the User would have expected. User does not expect to be booted out of their show just because the wall clock went from 7:59:59 to 8:00:00.


This happens to me. Premiere XL4 750-series esn. Here, I made a video of what is happening:


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

philco782 said:


> This happens to me. Premiere XL4 750-series esn. Here, I made a video of what is happening:


Nailed it!

Dear philco782. Thank you for taking the time to illustrate this with a video.
I am surprised so few Tivo Users report that their hardware does not do this.

So far, we have two hardware platforms exhibiting this defect.

Thanks again for the excellent documentation of this new change in the Classic Tivo User Experience.

You Rock, Dude!


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

I have recalled another bug on my list.

In the Classic Tivo User Experience, if I went to bed (or away for many hours), and there were no programs set to record but one, the tuners would stay on what I believe were the channels that the tuners were on (in the background). Unless the Tivo Agent used one. See the aside.

ASIDE: Please note that my Tivo is very full of content due to high program accumulation rate. Often, there is so little space the the Tivo agent will not record a show, or only record one show, due to the limited space. That's all cool. I state it to share my awareness of this feature but also to indicate the specific conditions or environment that my system is running in.

I routinely record a single program from 3am - 6am, every weekday morning.

Based on roughly ten years of previous User experience and the associated expectations that have been set along the way via 365 impressions every morning, I do not expect the three tuners which were not in-use -- overnight btwn 3a-6a -- to coalesce onto a single channel that I rarely if ever watch.

Sometimes it is a channel a watch. But that's not the point. This coalescing behavior is wrong. It is also super annoying and clearly not within the spirit of _The Tivo Way_.

((Excepting for a Tivo Agent to use one tuner -- however there is not enough disk space to warrant egregious recording by multiple simultaneous Tivo Agents. Then, only one tuner would be on the channel that was just recorded and two other channels have coalesced))

One of the delights I appreciated with a Tivo with 4 tuners, is that, when I wanted to browse live-ish TV, I could turn on my monitor/hdtv and see what the other 3 tuners had accumulated thus far in addition to the current tuner that was selected.

The background tuners were typically and usually on DIFFERENT channels that reflected my use patterns. If a Tivo Agent changed one of them, no big deal.

Today, after that upgrade that was PREMATURELY deployed to customer's boxes, if several hours go by and the Tivo was not explicitly programmed to record some content, the three tuners in the background may coalesce onto a single channel.

Not good, Rovi. Why are you changing the product's behavior so much?

I guess killing a good product through inept management after acquisition is common even though Microsoft is the big company known for such debacles. WebTV for example.


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## BadCommand (May 23, 2014)

I completely agree with the OP, and no- just because it's their first post doesn't diminish the truth of the situation. With that said, I recently came back (or so I thought-we'll see) and put my tivo gear back in place after a long and happy ride with PS Vue. Since my wonderful ISP (Cox) just put in place a 1TB data cap, sadly I have put all the work in re-provisioning 7 tv's with the tivo's.

At any rate, I made the GINORMOUS mistake of putting the hideously slow Hydra UI on my Roamio and would love nothing more than to burn it off. Now I know there is no official way to get rid of it, but I wold like to know if I accepted losing all my data, could I reformat the 3TB HD I put in and use the same format/partition utility I used initially used to make it tivo ready, then I would guess after removing my Roamio from the beta Hydra list, just get the last operational "old" UI?

Please let me know any ideas as I think with the family feedback to the new UI- if there isn't a way to rollback I'll have to bite the dust and spend an extra $50/mo for Cox's unlimited data and return to PSVue- and it's not the returning to PSVue that's the problem- it's the extra $50! Any suggestions will be appreciated!


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## schatham (Mar 17, 2007)

They said you could revert back. So far no way to do it. I expect a way soon. Your right, the longer I use this the less I like it. 

Tivo needs to step up and provide a way to downgrade as promised. I would not have tried Hydra if they did not say you could revert back.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

avaddict said:


> I have recalled another bug on my list.
> 
> In the Classic Tivo User Experience, if I went to bed (or away for many hours), and there were no programs set to record but one, the tuners would stay on what I believe were the channels that the tuners were on (in the background). Unless the Tivo Agent used one. See the aside.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen this behavior on my XL2, but the Buffer Preservation is (was!) one of the things that set TiVo apart from all other DVR's. Now that that is dead, or, hopefully in a coma, the list of things that set TiVo above other systems, has shrunk to a VERY small number.

What REALLY sets it apart from the X1 now?

-KP


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

schatham said:


> They said you could revert back. So far no way to do it. I expect a way soon. Your right, the longer I use this the less I like it.
> Tivo needs to step up and provide a way to downgrade as promised. I would not have tried Hydra if they did not say you could revert back.


This thread isn't about Hydra, the OP is ranting about 20.7.4 from August, the one people are all upset over having their highlight bars turned to white from yellow (yeah, I don't get the rant either)


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> This thread isn't about Hydra, the OP is ranting about 20.7.4 from August, the one people are all upset over having their highlight bars turned to white from yellow (yeah, I don't get the rant either)


Hi

Did you miss philco782's excellent video which illustrates the problem? Most brilliantly, too!


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

kpeters59 said:


> I haven't seen this behavior on my XL2, but the Buffer Preservation is (was!) one of the things that set TiVo apart from all other DVR's. Now that that is dead, or, hopefully in a coma, the list of things that set TiVo above other systems, has shrunk to a VERY small number.
> 
> What REALLY sets it apart from the X1 now?
> 
> -KP


True dat. That was a critically important usability feature. May it R.I.P.

Tonight I stepped away from the Tivo for 3 hours and two tuners not being used coalesced onto one channel. One tuner was on a channel and not recording. The 4th tuner was recording in background.

Note, my *disk* status *is* constantly and consistently *Full*. So it should not be trying to launch a Tivo Agent and record suggestions for me.

I never hoped for a Coma so much.


----------



## stile99 (Feb 27, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> I do think there is something in the water in Florida though.


Gators?


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

avaddict said:


> Did you miss philco782's excellent video which illustrates the problem? Most brilliantly, too!


It's a YMMV situation, doesn't bother me, however the post you quoted me replying to was a user referring to the Hydra upgrade and that is not what this lil thread of yours is about, you're busy ranting about 20.7.4 not Hydra/


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

dianebrat said:


> This thread isn't about Hydra, the OP is ranting about 20.7.4 from August, the one people are all upset over having their highlight bars turned to white from yellow (yeah, I don't get the rant either)


Thank your lucky stars you don't have *contrast sensitivity* vision issues. Since it seems that you don't, you apparently can't understand or empathize with how much eye strain is caused by the new FLAT color scheme. That's my only beef about this particular upgrade, but it's a *big* issue for people like us.


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## Barnstormer (Sep 23, 2015)

avaddict said:


> I have been frustrated by the train wreck of an update of the Tivo operating system.
> 
> I would not recommend a Tivo to any future customer.
> 
> Tivo is dead to me.


I must be doing something wrong. For the most part, my Tivo is working fine, even great. About once a month I have to reboot the thing to clear up some problem. So What? It's a computer at heart and computes often perform better after they are rebooted. I don't understand this complaint.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

Barnstormer said:


> I must be doing something wrong. For the most part, my Tivo is working fine, even great. About once a month I have to reboot the thing to clear up some problem. So What? It's a computer at heart and computes often perform better after they are rebooted. I don't understand this complaint.


Any need to reboot your Tivo computer is a clear indicator of software quality issues in the TivoOS.

Well-written software does not require rebooting to make it perform correctly. Software engineers know this.

And... you may not be doing anything wrong... you may be merely scratching the surface of the feature set goodness that was once delivered, historically. I call it The Classic Tivo Experience. It was invented way more than 10 years ago.

Here is another bug.

The 30 second advance feature

As somebody else mentioned in another thread on this forum. The 30 second advance is now behaving like a macro that simply accelerates the fast-forward by 30 seconds. In the parlance of UX this is now CLUNKY.

It used to be more graceful by advancing the cursor 30 seconds in the future without necessarily simulating an ultra fast-forward. That is, without displaying speeding frames of information as if to simulate a fast-forward. It went from an elegant implementation to a clunky one.

That made it faster, too. Now we are waiting a little longer for that to happen.

BTW, I edited the first post to indicate the version of TivoOS that I am currently running. I have no idea if this was the same version two days ago, when I started this thread.

Thank you for your comment. We should all want Rovi to not eff this up. If 20% of Rovi's Tivo customers abandon ship, then the future will not bode well for the existing User base... which includes you.

I wonder if Rovi would be concerned that more than 20% of their customer base is dissatisfied with the company's flagship product.


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## gonzotek (Sep 24, 2004)

avaddict said:


> ...
> Here is another bug.
> 
> The 30 second advance feature
> ...


Not a bug. Before Hydra, 30-second skip(which moves immediately 30 seconds forward in the content) was never a default feature of TiVo. It had to be enabled by entering a backdoor code (see link for directions for enabling):
Enable the 30 Second Skip on your Remote

The 30-second scan(which shows some video frames) was added as a default a while back (long before the 20.7 builds).


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

avaddict said:


> Tivo is dead to me.


You're still here?


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

JoeKustra said:


> I wish. But after a while you learn to filter out the noise & find out who is who. Also, if you click on a person's message count you can read all their posts. That may give you an idea of their "feelings".
> 
> If it's serious you can use "report", but that's very subjective. I do think there is something in the water in Florida though.


I believe the ad hominem attack on people in Florida is unwarranted. Even if the Fla vs Germany thing is a humorous meme. Don't be mean-spirited toward others. It's not cool.

That was particularly rude after a really good person went to the trouble to document a substantial buffer management bug that Tivo's Software Quality should have caught internally (a very long time ago).

I shudder at the thought of reading through your 8,616 of posts to see what you are really like. I guess I would find posts of presumably equal or less value; and perhaps containing even more harmful inferences toward members of the community. Are you inviting everyone to read those, now?

Plus, nobody cares whether *you* think the issue is serious or not. You may not understand the nuances of the product that you own.

Rovi is the entity that needs to care. The actions of Rovi's management and engineering puts the revenue of a publicly traded company at risk.

If things do not get rectified really quickly, like within 3-4 weeks... and this is a message for Rovi... I personally, will not buy another Tivo or recommend to friends or family, after ten years of being that guy that did so.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

idksmy said:


> You're still here?


I presume this is negative comment directed toward the minority.

If so, then it is revealing how you are a voice for the minority some days when you are in the minority but then later become a voice against the informed opinion of a minority, when you do not hold the same opinion.

Are truly are an advocate for treating people well and fairly?

I'm not convinced.


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## m.s (Mar 8, 2007)

avaddict said:


> Well-written software does not require rebooting to make it perform correctly. Software engineers know this.


Bug-free software does not require rebooting to make it perform correctly. No non-trivial software is bug-free. Software engineers know this.

FTFY


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

m.s said:


> Bug-free software does not require rebooting to make it perform correctly. No non-trivial software is bug-free. Software engineers know this.
> 
> FTFY


Remember the days of Netware servers with uptimes measured in years?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## idksmy (Jul 16, 2016)

philco782 said:


> Remember the days of Netware servers with uptimes measured in years?


And how'd that work out for Novell?


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

idksmy said:


> And how'd that work out for Novell?


They were a casualty of Microsoft's "embrace, extend, extinguish"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

The egregious flaw occurred at the minor release from .2 to .4 ...

-KP


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

kpeters59 said:


> The egregious flaw occurred at the minor release from .2 to .4 ...
> 
> -KP


Which was not in August


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

cherry ghost said:


> Which was not in August


Many thanks to you and kpeters59 for the info. Y'all rock!
This is what is currently on my Series 5 boxes: 20.7.4.RC2-846-6-846

I took a brief look at the Glassdoor web site today. 
Looks like a clusterpuck over at Rovi/Tivo in the last year or more.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

avaddict said:


> Nailed it!
> 
> Dear philco782. Thank you for taking the time to illustrate this with a video.
> I am surprised so few Tivo Users report that their hardware does not do this.




Well, enough people have the problem that it is now on Tivo's radar. I don't want to multipost but because the issue has been discussed in a few threads I am just linking to the original post:

Watching a recording show, Tivo quits it if next show is recording.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

avaddict said:


> Many thanks to you and kpeters59 for the info. Y'all rock!
> This is what is currently on my Series 5 boxes: 20.7.4.RC2-846-6-846
> 
> I took a brief look at the Glassdoor web site today.
> Looks like a clusterpuck over at Rovi/Tivo in the last year or more.


Mine is 20.7.4.RC2-750-2-750 for reference.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

philco782 said:


> Mine is 20.7.4.RC2-750-2-750 for reference.


FTR, here's mine, too:

20.7.4.RC2-746-2-746

-KP


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

And, TiVo! While you're FIXING THIS, please also fix the transition from the end of watching a recording in the Live TV buffer, that the transition to the next show is ALSO at the back of the buffer, like in the 'old' days (2016?)

-KP


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

philco782 said:


> Mine is 20.7.4.RC2-*750*-2-750 for reference.





kpeters59 said:


> FTR, here's mine, too:
> 
> 20.7.4.RC2-*746*-2-746
> 
> -KP


For those of you more detail-oriented than me, was the *TSN Prefix* always included in the Software Version?


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

ClearToLand said:


> For those of you more detail-oriented than me, was the *TSN Prefix* always included in the Software Version?


I still have pictures in my phone from back in the day when I upgraded my Premiere4 from 500gb to 4tb, that was early October 2015, and the software version back then was 20.5.2-01-2-750, so perhaps, at least that far back then it still was.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

kpeters59 said:


> And, TiVo! While you're FIXING THIS, please also fix the transition from the end of watching a recording in the Live TV buffer, that the transition to the next show is ALSO at the back of the buffer, like in the 'old' days (2016?)
> 
> -KP


Love the irony of old days being 2016. With change as rampant as it is now, being nostalgic for the classic Tivo User Experience must appear quaint to some. 

It is amazing how the detail of cursor placement in the playback of next program, after the buffer exchange, is so important to the user experience. In recent years, I have seen this problem manifest itself before as associated with the Live TV buffer. where the cursor would be placed at the end of the next program instead of the beginning (back of buffer, as you correctly state) after transitioning over the media programming boundary (e.g. boundary like 7:59:59 transition to 8:00:00 pm). Tivo would silently correct this with a new build before it annoyed me for too long (at least enough to reset my password and execute a drive-by on the forum of my most-loved consumer product, even more the iPhone ;-).

What makes this situation much worse is it completely aborts a recorded show that the viewer is currently watching. There is no warning. It puts the the viewer into the current Live TV buffer on that tuner. It's like cats and dogs living together! This was demonstrated by philco782's excellent video report.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

kpeters59 said:


> And, TiVo! While you're FIXING THIS, please also fix the transition from the end of watching a recording in the Live TV buffer, that the transition to the next show is ALSO at the back of the buffer, like in the 'old' days (2016?)
> 
> -KP


I also recall this being an annoyance. In my previous example which I created a video showing, both the local news, and the next show (jimmy kimmel) are set to record, and before 20.7.4, if I was watching the news in the buffer, it would finish the news, then dump into the live position of jimmy kimmel. It would be nice if it started at the beginning of that show.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

avaddict said:


> It is amazing how the detail of cursor placement in the playback of next program, after the buffer exchange, is so important to the user experience. In recent years, I have seen this problem manifest itself before as associated with the Live TV buffer. where the cursor would be placed at the end of the next program instead of the beginning (back of buffer, as you correctly state) after transitioning over the media programming boundary (e.g. boundary like 7:59:59 transition to 8:00:00 pm). Tivo would silently correct this with a new build before it annoyed me for too long (at least enough to reset my password and execute a drive-by on the forum of my most-loved consumer product, even more the iPhone ;-)


Well, ya know, superficially it might sound like cursor position is such a obscure thing to tweak, but in reality, it is actually probably one of the most important parts of the user interface! This is the core functionality of this device. Tivo invented the whole concept of time-shifting live TV, and now it's horribly broken!!

Sure it's annoying when you lose functionality of your back button, or a glitch in the guide, or something, but when you are daily getting kicked out of your buffer and lose what you were watching, that's like..... It isn't being a Tivo anymore! Makes my blood boil, honestly.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

avaddict said:


> I have been frustrated by the train wreck of an update of the Tivo operating system.
> 
> It is less performant, clunky and unpolished, and has a large collection of new operational bugs.
> 
> ...


What is your alternative?


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

shwru980r said:


> What is your alternative?


Hey!
Unfortunately I do not have one yet. Lifetime subs on the hardware, so we hope to have a solution before ours fail. Reading here for solutions, for sure.

Our extended family members have not replaced recently failed units (two, dual-tuner premiers). So, for now we are holding back on new purchases to see how Rovi manages this ship. The company appears deaf to fact that their great buffer management feature is no longer in the product.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

avaddict said:


> Hey!
> Unfortunately I do not have one yet. Lifetime subs on the hardware, so we hope to have a solution before ours fail. Reading here for solutions, for sure.
> 
> Our extended family members have not replaced recently failed units (two, dual-tuner premiers). So, for now we are holding back on new purchases to see how Rovi manages this ship. The company appears deaf to fact that their great buffer management feature is no longer in the product.


You keep focusing on an item that was never meant to be used the way you use it, and others have called you out on it, buffers and paused buffers across tuners were never meant to be leveraged the way some have used them, the answer is the same as the other thread "if you want it, press record"


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Bull!
It’s worked that way 20 years and now it’s been downgraded to a uVerse box.

-KP


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

avaddict said:


> The company appears deaf to fact that their great buffer management feature is no longer in the product.


This is fixed on Hydra with RC9 and will eventually be fixed on Gen3.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> You keep focusing on an item that was never meant to be used the way you use it, and others have called you out on it, buffers and paused buffers across tuners were never meant to be leveraged the way some have used them, the answer is the same as the other thread "if you want it, press record"


The TiVo was invented as a time shifting device. I would say that it WAS meant to be used that way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

philco782 said:


> The TiVo was invented as a time shifting device. I would say that it WAS meant to be used that way.


No, keeping track of 4 simultaneous live tv buffers so you can pause and unpause them each individually was never part of the initial plan, Tivo was a single tuner and pausing and unpausing the viewed buffer was considered the feature, and even back then we got complaints about losing it at times, you only have to get burned once by losing a buffer to remember that you can quickly and simply click record and have no worries of losing it.

Relying on the buffer to keep your show is like not backing up data on a PC or driving without a seatbelt, everything is fine until it isn't.
It's already been stated that Tivo considers this worthy of fixing, but my point will always be the live buffer you're watching is the only one you can even remotely count on, don't count on the background tuners, and if you truly want to watch what's onscreen now, RECORD IT!


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

kpeters59 said:


> Bull!
> It's worked that way 20 years and now it's been downgraded to a uVerse box.
> 
> -KP


If you're going to engage in hyperbole at least get the dates right, Tivo hit our lives in 1999, go for 20 if they're still around in 2019


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> .... the live buffer you're watching is the only one you can even remotely count on ...




That's the problem, that right there is the buffer getting annihilated, not a background tuner.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> You keep focusing on an item that was never meant to be used the way you use it, and others have called you out on it, buffers and paused buffers across tuners were never meant to be leveraged the way some have used them, the answer is the same as the other thread "if you want it, press record"


sorry, @dianebrat, i have to call you out on this one, you couldn't be more wrong. watching live tv through the buffer is a basic dvr function, and should not be interrupted only because another recording begins on the same channel.

this is a critical bug, margret admitted as much when it happened the last time, and tivo was quick to push a fix - let's hope rivo is as responsive this time around.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

NorthAlabama said:


> sorry, @dianebrat, i have to call you out on this one, you couldn't be more wrong. watching live tv through the buffer is a basic dvr function, and should not be interrupted only because another recording begins on the same channel.
> 
> this is a critical bug, margret admitted as much when it happened the last time, and tivo was quick to push a fix - let's hope rivo is as responsive this time around.


I'm saying we expect the LIVE buffer to be held for us and that it was a victim, but the background tuners were always fair game, but even then I and others have long since learned if its that important, press record to be sure, since unforeseen items like kitties stepping on remotes are not out of possibility.


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

dianebrat said:


> I'm saying we expect the LIVE buffer to be held for us and that it was a victim, but the background tuners were always fair game, but even then I and others have long since learned if its that important, press record to be sure, since unforeseen items like kitties stepping on remotes are not out of possibility.


Maybe I lost you somewhere, but this has never been about background tuners. It's about losing your spot on the tuner you are currently watching, whether you're recording it or not.

It's not a huge deal for me, because if I'm not recording a show it's not that important to me. If I am recording it I always watch it from MyShows, not the live tuner.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

dianebrat said:


> I'm saying we expect the LIVE buffer to be held for us and that it was a victim, but the background tuners were always fair game, but even then I and others have long since learned if its that important, press record to be sure, since unforeseen items like kitties stepping on remotes are not out of possibility.


what you're suggesting is a workaround, and if one can remember to do it when watching the buffer, great.

don't blame this on users leveraging tuners, though - it's a bug.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

Why does the phrase

_"pause live tv"
_
keep popping in to my head?

-KP


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

kpeters59 said:


> Why does the phrase
> _"pause live tv"_
> keep popping in to my head?


I'm not saying one should lose the current live buffer, that was a mistake that they're fixing, but even then if the item in the buffer is indeed that important, yeah I press record as do many others.
There were several complaints about the background tuner buffers being lost and that was my core point, never ever trust those as being there.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NorthAlabama said:


> sorry, @dianebratthis is a critical bug, margret admitted as much when *it happened the last time*, and tivo was quick to push a fix - let's hope rivo is as responsive this time around.


It happened before, they fixed it. It's happening now, and they'll fix it.

As many have suggested over the years, hit record if you are watching something live that interests you. I do it and don't even know if my current software has this bug.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

chicagobrownblue said:


> It happened before, they fixed it. It's happening now, and they'll fix it.
> 
> As many have suggested over the years, hit record if you are watching something live that interests you. I do it and don't even know if my current software has this bug.


who claimed they wouldn't fix it?


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NorthAlabama said:


> who claimed they wouldn't fix it?


You are calling it a "critical bug" to try to get it fixed as fast as possible. So maybe they are not fixing it fast enough for you would be a better statement. This would never get a critical bug assignment from me as a QA person, it would get one of the two lowest priority bug assignments.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

I don't even understand why it would be an issue. If you want to watch something, hit the record button... I actually want the ability to DISABLE recordings when not in use. I've been doing a series of fake recordings throughout the day to turn the recording OFF since I got my first Tivo 13 years ago...


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

chicagobrownblue said:


> You are calling it a "critical bug" to try to get it fixed as fast as possible. So maybe they are not fixing it fast enough for you would be a better statement. This would never get a critical bug assignment from me as a QA person, it would get one of the two lowest priority bug assignments.


this is a show stopper, and all show stoppers are critical bugs.

based on margret's comments, and the speed at which tivo addressed the issue the last time it surfaced, they agreed with me.

if it doesn't bother you, great - find another thread to read.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

NorthAlabama said:


> if it doesn't bother you, great - find another thread to read.


It doesn't, I didn't upgrade yet. I was in QA and don't QA new software from Tivo, Microsoft or anyone else for free or cheap. I let others like you do that work for me.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

NorthAlabama said:


> who claimed they wouldn't fix it?


We have fixed this bug in our mainline code branch. It will be released on gen4/Hydra next week as part of 21.7.2.RC9. We are still working to determine a release vehicle for gen3, but it shouldn't be long.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

TiVo_Ted said:


> We have fixed this bug in our mainline code branch. It will be released on gen4/Hydra next week as part of 21.7.2.RC9. We are still working to determine a release vehicle for gen3, but it shouldn't be long.


thanks, ted - much appreciated!


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

We cannot wait for this fix. It affects our experience every day. It happened this morning when I wanted to watch a show, 1:50 after it started. The 2 hr show was recorded automatically via season pass. I was booted out of playback after only ten minutes. That's not how a Tivo works. If this was the behavior of a Tivo, then my family would have never been aboard this bandwagon. That's for sure. 

I was beginning to worry that Rovi/Tivo was utterly tone deaf on this buffer bug. They need to fix it soon to make me believe otherwise. 

Too bad they did not have it fixed for CyberMonday because they missed at least one $500 piece of revenue from my family today. I would have purchased today had the bug been fixed before today. 

How could such a fundamental feature of the Tivo product go unnoticed by their QA and Engineering process? It is fascinating, for sure. I wonder if they tried to change the behavior knowingly because it was easier to accomplish whatever else they thought was important. And they were not prepared for their Users to notice. Well, I guess it takes a solid 20 or 30 percent of Users to notice and care to complain. Otherwise, maybe that feature would have been gone for good. Thanks to all of you!


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

chicagobrownblue said:


> It doesn't, I didn't upgrade yet. I was in QA and don't QA new software from Tivo, Microsoft or anyone else for free or cheap. I let others like you do that work for me.


How do you prevent the build from going on your hardware? That would be the ideal way. I prefer to lag on builds... on everything from mobile to desktop. When will Tivo allow this? Is there a thread about it? Thanks!


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> You keep focusing on an item that was never meant to be used the way you use it, and others have called you out on it, buffers and paused buffers across tuners were never meant to be leveraged the way some have used them, the answer is the same as the other thread "if you want it, press record"


Use your imagination and realize how cool it would be to do this. 
That is what Tivo designers envisioned from the beginning. 
We all use our tools differently based on a number of factors.


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## chicagobrownblue (May 29, 2008)

avaddict said:


> How do you prevent the build from going on your hardware? Thanks!


I have a Roamio Basic and do not have the VOX Remote and dongle. I don't think my box will update under those conditions.

The lack of the Live Guide is making me dawdle on the various good deals on Tivos for Cyber Monday.


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

chicagobrownblue said:


> I have a Roamio Basic and do not have the VOX Remote and dongle. I don't think my box will update under those conditions.
> 
> The lack of the Live Guide is making me dawdle on the various good deals on Tivos for Cyber Monday.


I see, you've got a physical network impediment. That's cool.

I just searched the forums regarding Live Guide.

Rovi really is trying to make the Tivo die, apparently (presuming there is less functionality).

The multi-dimensional goodness in the Live Guide is super useful. Seems like every button in the center of the remote has an unmarked navigational feature associated to getting more usability from the Live Guide. Are those features supported in the grid UI?


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

Am I the only one that hates the Live Guide? (Is that the TiVo guide?) I've never used it-I always use the grid guide lol


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

I thought this was a thread on 20.7.2. What happened?


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

avaddict said:


> How do you prevent the build from going on your hardware? That would be the ideal way. I prefer to lag on builds... on everything from mobile to desktop. When will Tivo allow this? Is there a thread about it? Thanks!


I seriously would be interested in a feature like the "Defer updates" feature in Windows 10 Pro where I don't get the released update for some months after release by default.

If this debacle is any indication of quality control going down the tubes after the Rovi acquisition, then I may just want to freeze my installed build when I deem it has a good enough feature set that lacks serious bugs.

I think the TiVo developers are forgetting this device is an APPLIANCE. Like a VCR. No consumer would want their VCR radically changing overnight without the end user specifically and intentionally doing anything to it. They want it to JUST WORK and not change in its operating paradigm.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

I still don't understand what the issue is. Why would anyone be using the buffers? I want a way to shut off buffering as at best it's noisy, and it adds wear and tear to the drive for not reason. 

If you want to watch something, hit record...


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## JolDC (Dec 21, 2001)

Puppy76 said:


> ...I want a way to shut off buffering as at best it's noisy, and it adds wear and tear to the drive for not reason.


Wrong. I think you mean "for no reason I want". Being able to trick play live TV has been a key feature since the beginning and that requires the buffer.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

Puppy76 said:


> I still don't understand what the issue is. Why would anyone be using the buffers? I want a way to shut off buffering as at best it's noisy, and it adds wear and tear to the drive for not reason.
> 
> If you want to watch something, hit record...


How about rewinding live tv? Remember the Justin Timberlake and Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction"? It was announced by TiVo at the time as the most rewatched TV of all time.

I don't think you fully comprehend the intentions of the TiVo.

By the way spinning magnetic drives do not wear any more appreciably with activity regarding head seeks, the heads actually float above the platters and do not make contact.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Puppy76 said:


> I still don't understand what the issue is. Why would anyone be using the buffers? I want a way to shut off buffering as at best it's noisy, and it adds wear and tear to the drive for not reason.
> 
> If you want to watch something, hit record...


What I don't understand is watching something from the buffer when you're already recording it.

The example upthread of watching a two hour show, that's already been recording for an hour fifty, from the buffer makes little sense to me. Just watch it from MyShows and you won't get kicked out when the next show starts recording.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

cherry ghost said:


> What I don't understand is watching something from the buffer when you're already recording it.


because it's there?


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## Noelmel (Nov 6, 2014)

cherry ghost said:


> What I don't understand is watching something from the buffer when you're already recording it.


I watch almost everything this way it comes in handy especially when theres multiple shows recording back to back on the same network. I'll try to explain how I do it...For example Friday night CBS was Macgyver - Hawaii 5 0 - Blue Bloods. I can just start at 845 and FF through the commercials as I watch all 3. If I was to watch from My Shows I would have to find Macgyver watch that and delete, then go back to my shows find Hawaii 50 watch that and delete, then go back to my shows again and find Blue Bloods watch that and delete. Also I find the previews at end usually get cut off and I miss a bit in between each show. When you watch straight through on buffer that doesn't happen.

Either way I am on the early list of RC9 and the issue is fixed now


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> because it's there?


Sure, but that doesn't make it a 'show stopper' because the feature doesn't work as intended. Tivos work fine for live TV, with or without a working buffer.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

philco782 said:


> How about rewinding live tv? Remember the Justin Timberlake and Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction"? It was announced by TiVo at the time as the most rewatched TV of all time.
> 
> I don't think you fully comprehend the intentions of the TiVo.
> 
> ...


But WHY? Why would you be watching "live" TV? Why would you be watching anything without recording it? There's zero need to if you have a TiVo.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Puppy76 said:


> But WHY? Why would you be watching "live" TV? Why would you be watching anything without recording it? There's zero need to if you have a TiVo.


I don't know, it seems The Weather Channel would disagree. Not that it has anything to do with 20.7.2.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure, but that doesn't make it a 'show stopper' because the feature doesn't work as intended. Tivos work fine for live TV, with or without a working buffer.


no, what makes it a show stopper is this bug interrupts watching television.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure, but that doesn't make it a 'show stopper' because the feature doesn't work as intended. Tivos work fine for live TV, with or without a working buffer.


A regular cable box works fine for live TV. I'm giving Tivo $15/month so i can buffer live TV, as that is one of its advertised features, and it should work as advertised.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

avaddict said:


> We cannot wait for this fix. It affects our experience every day. It happened this morning when I wanted to watch a show, 1:50 after it started. The 2 hr show was recorded automatically via season pass. I was booted out of playback after only ten minutes. That's not how a Tivo works. If this was the behavior of a Tivo, then my family would have never been aboard this bandwagon. That's for sure.
> 
> I was beginning to worry that Rovi/Tivo was utterly tone deaf on this buffer bug. They need to fix it soon to make me believe otherwise.
> 
> ...


Tivo_ted stated this issue was fixed on Hydra. If you purchased a new Tivo, it's my understanding that new Tivos will default to the Hydra interface.

The new 4K element TVs with the fire tv interface from Amazon have the ability to pause live tv and you can add a SD card for additional storage to pause up to 3 hours.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> no, what makes it a show stopper is this bug interrupts watching television.


OMG! I have to hit the live TV button again and I lost a buffer that was never guaranteed to begin with! I just can't live with this 'show stopper'!


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

that's not what's being discussed, and you know it. obtuse, much? 

the behavior being described happens without interaction from the user. that, and hitting live tv doesn't "lose" the buffer. try again.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

I know exactly what you're talking about (losing a buffer when a recording starts, kicking you back to live), and it is in no way a show stopper. But yes, it's a minor bug that will be fixed.
Try again, like um, recordings that fail because the guide data that we pay for is bad. Which means the essential function of a DVR (reliable recording) fails. Or we can't play or schedule shows because BSCs are ruining everything since Tivo idiotically decided to slave the UI to their servers.

Those are 'show stopper' bugs IMO, because they impact a DVR's primary function - to schedule, record, and play shows. Not trickplay through live TV buffers that are never guaranteed to be there.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

again, you're intentionally missing the point, you've drawn your line and dug in, unable to admit you're wrong.

there's another primary function of a dvr - the ability to watch live tv, as well as pause and rewind live tv at will, without missing the last minutes of your show - e.g. show stopper.

eta: if this weren't the case, tivo would not be designed to record a buffer 24 hours a day on each tuner, as it can record upcoming shows without a buffer.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> I know exactly what you're talking about (losing a buffer when a recording starts, kicking you back to live), and it is in no way a show stopper. But yes, it's a minor bug that will be fixed.
> Try again, like um, recordings that fail because the guide data that we pay for is bad. Which means the essential function of a DVR (reliable recording) fails. Or we can't play or schedule shows because BSCs are ruining everything since Tivo idiotically decided to slave the UI to their servers.
> 
> Those are 'show stopper' bugs IMO, because they impact a DVR's primary function - to schedule, record, and play shows. Not trickplay through live TV buffers that are never guaranteed to be there.


Sorry. Your opinion. The buffer defect is imho a critical defect.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

NorthAlabama said:


> again, you're intentionally missing the point, you've drawn your line and dug in, unable to admit you're wrong.


The point here is that there is an easy workaround to your issue but not the ones I mentioned. That's what makes yours a minor bug and not a show stopper. But this has been made perfectly clear to y'all upthread and you choose to ignore a simple change of how you use the box. Which is how you should have been using it all along - i.e., if you really want to watch something to the end, record it. Don't rely on live TV buffers, all it takes is a simple misplaced remote control press and you're screwed whether Tivo fixes this or not.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

if there's a workaround, it's a bug. if it interrupts watching live tv, it's not minor, it's critical, and a show stopper. it's that simple.

what's perfectly clear is your obstinance.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

slowbiscuit said:


> The point here is that there is an easy workaround to your issue but not the ones I mentioned. That's what makes yours a minor bug and not a show stopper. But this has been made perfectly clear to y'all upthread and you choose to ignore a simple change of how you use the box. Which is how you should have been using it all along - i.e., if you really want to watch something to the end, record it. Don't rely on live TV buffers, all it takes is a simple misplaced remote control press and you're screwed whether Tivo fixes this or not.


Wow - that is one of the most arrogant comments I've seen in a while.

I didn't realize somebody should be told "how to use the box all along". I was kind of under the impression that the box function should, you know, FUNCTION. I could not even begin to count the number of products of which people started to use them in all kinds of ways, based on how they actually worked. You know, to suit THEIR needs. Kind of why they bought it to begin with.

It's a good thing that you're not personally the "decider in chief" of what is and what is not a critical defect. But it really doesn't matter in the long term. We're all fighting amongst ourselves while Tivo/Rovi continues to give us crap for data - which IS the core of their service.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> The point here is that there is an easy workaround to your issue but not the ones I mentioned. That's what makes yours a minor bug and not a show stopper.


Loss of data is not minor bug. I invite you to come explain to my wife that the show she was watching is gone now and that it was her fault for not hitting the record button.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Watching TV out of a TiVo buffer is like playing Russian roulette. If you may win at first but if continue to play Russian roulette sooner or latter you will blow your head off. If you continue to watch TV from a TiVo buffer sooner or latter you will dump your buffer and lose what you where watching. 

TiVo will very likely fix this bug (it is a bug), but even when they do watching TV out of a TiVo buffer is foolishness. People can do what they want, I certainly do not care, but the end result will still be the same. Just hit record.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

ah30k said:


> Loss of data is not minor bug. I invite you to come explain to my wife that the show she was watching is gone now and that it was her fault for not hitting the record button.


This, right here. I wish I could like this comment times a million.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> Watching TV out of a TiVo buffer is like playing Russian roulette. If you may win at first but if continue to play Russian roulette sooner or latter you will blow your head off. If you continue to watch TV from a TiVo buffer sooner or latter you will dump your buffer and lose what you where watching.
> 
> TiVo will very likely fix this bug (it is a bug), but even when they do watching TV out of a TiVo buffer is foolishness. People can do what they want, I certainly do not care, but the end result will still be the same. Just hit record.


Your opinion. Not one shared by all. Certainly not shared by me. If you understand how the buffer is supposed to work, then it should work how it's supposed to work and you should feel perfectly free to use it. I've used it a ton. Have I run out of buffer? Sure. However for the 99.9% of the time that I've used it just for convenience in the past, it has been part of the "Tivo Experience" that is expected to work. It is NOT - repeat NOT - like playing Russian roulette. The potential down side is obviously not even remotely similar, and the value proposition is very different. There is NO REASON to play Russian Roulette. There is no value, and no convenience. There is no product that "should" work for a specified period of time (time period of buffer as advertised).

Telling people that what they are doing with the product they purchased and may have been using in this way for many years is not foolishness. It is arrogance. Telling people to try and educate others that use the product that may have a difficult time even using a remote (spouses, relatives, etc) is not even arrogance. It is an example of simply failing to comprehend user behavior and trying to impose YOUR opinion on everyone else.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

wmhjr said:


> Your opinion. Not one shared by all. Certainly not shared by me. If you understand how the buffer is supposed to work, then it should work how it's supposed to work and you should feel perfectly free to use it. I've used it a ton. Have I run out of buffer? Sure. However for the 99.9% of the time that I've used it just for convenience in the past, it has been part of the "Tivo Experience" that is expected to work. It is NOT - repeat NOT - like playing Russian roulette. The potential down side is obviously not even remotely similar, and the value proposition is very different. There is NO REASON to play Russian Roulette. There is no value, and no convenience. There is no product that "should" work for a specified period of time (time period of buffer as advertised).
> 
> Telling people that what they are doing with the product they purchased and may have been using in this way for many years is not foolishness. It is arrogance. Telling people to try and educate others that use the product that may have a difficult time even using a remote (spouses, relatives, etc) is not even arrogance. It is an example of simply failing to comprehend user behavior and trying to impose YOUR opinion on everyone else.


No opinion at all, I keep telling people if they watch TV out of TiVo's buffer sooner or later they will lose the buffer and be unhappy. Unless your saying they are not unhappy everyone posting about this problem and all the other people who have posted about buffer issues in the past have already experienced buffer dump/loss. My advise has consistently been the same - if you recorded it you will not lose what you are trying to watch because of a buffer dump which is also not an opinion.

Regardless of what you want to believe the only 100% way to not negatively be effected by buffer dump is to record everything and not rely on the buffer. If/when TiVo fixes this current bug, if people continue to watch TV out of the buffer without recording it, sooner or later they will lose what they are watching due to a buffer dump, that again is reality not an opinion.

How someone uses their TiVo is of no concern to me, the risks of watching TV out of the buffer are clear and how to avoid those risks have been provided, what people do is their own business.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

placing the responsibility on the customer to remember to use a workaround for a known issue, each and every time they watch live tv, is disingenuous.



atmuscarella said:


> Watching TV out of a TiVo buffer is like playing Russian roulette.





atmuscarella said:


> I keep telling people if they watch TV out of TiVo's buffer sooner or later they will lose the buffer and be unhappy.



these would not be true if not for the bug, if tivo were operating properly, it would neither be russian roulette, or make customers unhappy.


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## wmhjr (Dec 2, 2007)

atmuscarella said:


> No opinion at all, I keep telling people if they watch TV out of TiVo's buffer sooner or later they will lose the buffer and be unhappy. Unless your saying they are not unhappy everyone posting about this problem and all the other people who have posted about buffer issues in the past have already experienced buffer dump/loss. My advise has consistently been the same - if you recorded it you will not lose what you are trying to watch because of a buffer dump which is also not an opinion.
> 
> Regardless of what you want to believe the only 100% way to not negatively be effected by buffer dump is to record everything and not rely on the buffer. If/when TiVo fixes this current bug, if people continue to watch TV out of the buffer without recording it, sooner or later they will lose what they are watching due to a buffer dump, that again is reality not an opinion.
> 
> How someone uses their TiVo is of no concern to me, the risks of watching TV out of the buffer are clear and how to avoid those risks have been provided, what people do is their own business.


And now you're not just showing your opinion, you're showing that you're factually incorrect. It is YOUR OPINION about whether or not people should use the buffer. It is YOUR OPINION as to whether or not they should change their viewing habits. You know how else you'll never experience this? Don't watch TV. Don't buy a Tivo.

Your fundamental flaw and arrogance about this is your refusal to acknowledge the FACT that the people complaining about this were NOT complaining about the buffer dump prior to the defect being introduced. They clearly (as opposed to you) understood how it worked, and were happy with it. However, the defect make this behavior unstable, unpredictable and unreliable. Therefore, their historic habits no longer worked - because the product no longer worked.

Your second fundamental flaw is your apparent incapability of comprehending that others (not members here, and not Tivo fanatics) may not really understand how the product works, but have (for years) been very happy using the buffer. Your fundamental second flaw is your insistence that it's their fault, and that somebody needs to just educate them (on the apparent unreliability of this function) rather than admitting that it's a defect that is very very important to at least some people. Or, in other words, your lack of ability or consideration to even attempt to view the issue from any perspective other than your narrow one.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> placing the responsibility on the customer to remember to use a workaround for a known issue, each and every time they watch live tv, is disingenuous.
> 
> these would not be true if not for the bug, if tivo were operating properly, it would neither be russian roulette, or make customers unhappy.


Losing what you are watching or want to watch due to buffer dump isn't new and doesn't just happen because of this current bug. I and others have given a solution to a problem. What is disingenuous is saying otherwise. You can believe what you want but if/when TiVo fixes this current bug, if people continue to watch TV out of the buffer sooner or later they will lose what they are watching or want to watch due to a buffer dump.

Saying there is a problem with watching live TV however is completely disingenuous. Turn your TV on use your TiVo to tune to the channel you want to watch and watch it, no problems and no work around needed at all. In fact the buffer and if it is dumped is irrelevant when it comes to watching live TV.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

atmuscarella said:


> Losing what you are watching or want to watch due to buffer dump isn't new and doesn't just happen because of this current bug. I and others have given a solution to a problem. What is disingenuous is saying otherwise. You can believe what you want but if/when TiVo fixes this current bug, if people continue to watch TV out of the buffer sooner or later they will lose what they are watching or want to watch due to a buffer dump.
> 
> Saying there is a problem with watching live TV however is completely disingenuous. Turn your TV on use your TiVo to tune to the channel you want to watch and watch it, no problems and no work around needed at all. In fact the buffer and if it is dumped is irrelevant when it comes to watching live TV.


this is new behavior when the bug is introduced by a software update. this isn't an issue once the bug is patched. speaking truth to your ignorance is not being disingenuous. my beliefs align not only with tivo (based on both margret's and ted's comments), but with other customers commenting in this thread.

watching live tv requires watching from the buffer, again, your ignorance. there is no option to turn the buffer off, so, yes, it is very relevant, if a customer uses their tivo as advertised.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

NorthAlabama said:


> this is new behavior when the bug is introduced by a software update. this isn't an issue once the bug is patched. speaking truth to your ignorance is not being disingenuous. my beliefs align not only with tivo (based on both margret's and ted's comments), but with other customers commenting in this thread.


I agree this is a bug and have been calling it a bug. I do not agree that buffer dumps will no longer be an issue once fixed, just significantly less of an issue.



NorthAlabama said:


> watching live tv requires watching from the buffer, again, your ignorance. there is no option to turn the buffer off, so, yes, it is very relevant, if a customer uses their tivo as advertised.


Yes I do know that live TV has actually been recorded and is end point of the buffer, but we are talking about buffer dump issues. If someone is watching live TV there are no buffer dump issues.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

atmuscarella said:


> I agree this is a bug and have been calling it a bug. I do not agree that buffer dumps will no longer be an issue once fixed, just significantly less of an issue.


that does not represent my experience.


> Yes I do know that live TV has actually been recorded and is end point of the buffer, but we are talking about buffer dump issues. If someone is watching live TV there are no buffer dump issues.


not necessarily.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

wmhjr said:


> Sorry. Your opinion. The buffer defect is imho a critical defect.


Can I play now, even though I am late? Yes, I am back!

Like Ted said the other week, this "bug" was a *regression* (what a way to put it, eh? Just another testing F-up). That is the intolerable part, but not the end of the world...say like losing QM for almost 2 months.... He did say it was fixed in 21.7.2.RC9, and also said something about them putting together the fix for Gen3, but I have not seen a Pending Restart yet...LOL.

He's not saying much at all lately...


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

JoeKustra said:


> I don't know, it seems The Weather Channel would disagree. Not that it has anything to do with 20.7.2.


Isn't that *21*.7.2 you are talking about? HEY!


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

samccfl99 said:


> Isn't that *21*.7.2 you are talking about? HEY!


No, I was referring to the title of this thread. Look at what started the thread. However, now I'm glad that this school yard fight has stayed on this thread if only to keep it off threads that matter.


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## slowbiscuit (Sep 19, 2006)

The main problem here is that people that use Tivos incorrectly are pissed when a feature that is never guaranteed doesn't work, then get mad again when told that they're using it wrong.

And yep, I don't care whether you think you're using it right. You're not.


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

is that related to the problem of users thinking their opinion of how to watch tivo is the only one that matters, despite evidence that shows otherwise? it isn't, and you're wrong.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

slowbiscuit said:


> The main problem here is that people that use Tivos incorrectly are pissed when a feature that is never guaranteed doesn't work, then get mad again when told that they're using it wrong.
> 
> And yep, I don't care whether you think you're using it right. You're not.


Where in the TiVo Bible does is say that watching simultaneous live channels in the buffer is wrong? I must have missed that in the last 11 years that I've been using these devices. We should tell TiVo-Ted to have that incorrect usage blocked by removing the ability to watch live TV. If you want to watch ANYTHING, you must record it first.

And it was written here by you, therefore it must be so.


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## ppctx (Sep 16, 2005)

Buffer issue

Some of you are real odd. If this issue doesn't bother you, why click on the thread, or bother to read past the first post, then continue on to provide your opinion. This thread is for those that it is an issue for. I had to wade to the retarded "you're using it wrong", "I wish I could disable buffer", "hit record if you want to watch something, a kitty could step on your remote" (sounds a little crazy cat ladyish to me), great, go start a thread about that and I wouldn't click on it because that's not how I use my Tivo and don't care the outcome of your issues. Are y'all really that hard up for conversation with another human that you post in a thread that you admit does not concern you? Post contrary opinions, just so someone might respond to you, to simulate conversation? Would you pop yourself into someone else overheard conversation in the real world and tell the they are doing it wrong?

Let's give some real world examples.

Channel surfing, come across a show that seems interesting. Do you immediately hit record, watch for a bit, then hit record or watch it in it's entirety in buffer? If the first, what if it ends up sucking after a few minutes, now you have to cancel and delete the program. The second, what is the appropriate amount of time to watch before making the record/don't record decision. Third, that's what I do unless I really want to see it and know I can't finish it.

Again channel surfing and run across an all day marathon on some show you think will be cool. Kinda the same question. Do you record all episodes. I don't. I start watching, hit pause (using buffer now) if I need to do something, come back and hit play, maybe FF thru commercials depending on how long it was paused. This is the cool thing I don't think some of you get or have used. I'm now playing with the 30 minutes of buffer, ie, time shift. As long as I keep the pay point somewhere in between this 30 minute window, I can keep trucking all day long like this. A one pass item needs to record using that tuner, tivo used to ask if I wanted to change to that show or cancel it, now it just pops to the scheduled recording.

On the pissing an mooning about if you record, switching wouldn't happen. I one pass the 5:30 then 6:00 news. Start the 5:30 at 5:50 then back up to the start, at 6:00, it switches to the 6:00 news, drops the last 10 minutes of the 5:30 I didn't get to see unless I pick the remote back up and go back to my shows and select the 5:30 recording, then FF trying to figure out where it dropped out. I would have preferred it keep on playing the 5:30, the seamlessly started playing the 6:00 (this is time shifting). I don't want to have to start going to my shows to play the next thing I want to watch when the shows are back to back, on the same channel and a buffer has been there to accomplish that from the start.

Use yours as you wish, as a dumb box or take full advantage, don't care, but don't tell me Ive been doing it wrong for 15 years. If it makes you feel better, I'm watching a movie right now, not recorded, nothing but buffer, able to FF, pause. Think the buffer issue that is supposedly being fixed only occurs when on the same channel, recording/watching back to back shows.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

ppctx said:


> Buffer issue
> 
> S...............
> 
> ...


Sure I tried doing that back in 2001 and 2002. Until I realized that just an errant button press and you lose the entire buffer. Since I ran into that issue, I just record anything. And I don't have to worry about losing the buffer that way. Which is much more reliable since the buffer will not disappear.


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## ppctx (Sep 16, 2005)

aaronwt said:


> Sure I tried doing that back in 2001 and 2002. Until I realized that just an errant button press and you lose the entire buffer. Since I ran into that issue, I just record anything. And I don't have to worry about losing the buffer that way. Which is much more reliable since the buffer will not disappear.


Read the first and last paragraph of my post. I don't care how you use yours, you really shouldn't care how I use mine. I operate my car a certain way, you probably operate yours at least a little different, we don't need to have a discussion about it, do as you wish.


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## TiVo_Ted (Oct 3, 2000)

samccfl99 said:


> Can I play now, even though I am late? Yes, I am back!
> 
> Like Ted said the other week, this "bug" was a *regression* (what a way to put it, eh? Just another testing F-up). That is the intolerable part, but not the end of the world...say like losing QM for almost 2 months.... He did say it was fixed in 21.7.2.RC9, and also said something about them putting together the fix for Gen3, but I have not seen a Pending Restart yet...LOL.
> 
> He's not saying much at all lately...


Quality, not quantity. This isn't my day job ;-)

We have been testing the buffer fix and several other fixes on gen3/Encore for a couple of weeks now. We've got a lot more people on gen3 vs gen4 now, so believe it or not we actually are testing it. We're hoping to green light the release on Monday and start rolling it out next week.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

TiVo_Ted said:


> Quality, not quantity. This isn't my day job ;-)
> *
> I like that!*
> 
> We have been testing the buffer fix and several other fixes on gen3/Encore for a couple of weeks now. We've got a lot more people on gen3 vs gen4 now, so believe it or not we actually are testing it. We're hoping to green light the release on Monday and start rolling it out next week.


Thanks, so there are other bugs in Gen3? I am pretty much just a DVR user. I understand things take time to fix (now a regression is another story...sorry). Maybe I can PM you my TSN for testing, but only if you promise it will come as GEN*3!!!*

I hate to bring this up here, but while you are going to probably see this, I think in 20.7.2 when the platforms were merged, a bad change happened. I like to hit the top left button to get back into My Shows a lot and it often does not go back to where it was before, it just goes to Tivo Central with My Shows highlighted (I read about people complaining about some things like this in Gen4...and worse). This never happened before and I think it is a _regression_...LOL. It really is a pain and happens all the time...to me. Wondering if it can be looked into sometime.

What I would really like to know is, what your estimate of when a release of Gen4 with all initial bugs and design flaws fixed (Live Guide, for instance...) and maybe some "feature requests" added, will be available. Maybe by the Spring?

I should have picked up one of those OTA Roamios for $199 to play with Gen4, but I honestly would not know what to do with an OTA unit...and only 500gb...

*SORRY FOR THE LONG POST. HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND!*


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ppctx said:


> Buffer issue
> Some of you are real odd. If this issue doesn't bother you, why click on the thread, or bother to read past the first post, then continue on to provide your opinion. This thread is for those that it is an issue for.


Except this thread is about a lot more than a single issue, if it was titled "Buffer issue" we'd ignore it.
You're also being a bit hypocritical telling us we're "using the thread wrong"


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

aaronwt said:


> Sure I tried doing that back in 2001 and 2002. Until I realized that just an errant button press and you lose the entire buffer.


An errant button push is operator error. I don't think anyone here is talking about losing the buffer when they accidentally change channel. I can't think of any other button pushes that would clear the buffers (this bug discussion aside). Actually, there is one button push that would... the 'record button' if you were watching buffer from a previous show on the same channel.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

ah30k said:


> An errant button push is operator error. I don't think anyone here is talking about losing the buffer when they accidentally change channel. I can't think of any other button pushes that would clear the buffers (this bug discussion aside). Actually, there is one button push that would... the 'record button' if you were watching buffer from a previous show on the same channel.


NO what those of us who are saying it are saying it from experience, if you care about it, ANY errant operator error, or cat stepping on a remote, or dropping the remote can change the channel and wipe the buffer, and because of that we are willing to press record if it's that important. Those who don't press record and rely on the buffer aren't "using it wrong" but there is always a risk, and that risk is easily averted.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ah30k said:


> An errant button push is operator error. I don't think anyone here is talking about losing the buffer when they accidentally change channel. I can't think of any other button pushes that would clear the buffers (this bug discussion aside). Actually, there is one button push that would... the 'record button' if you were watching buffer from a previous show on the same channel.


I would think the point is if there is a buffer dump and you are watching TV from the buffer, it is a problem. Does it really matter why the buffer got dumped?

We have this bug now, we have had other bugs in the past, we will likely have future bugs. When people were having issues with remotes not responding properly errant button pushes happened all the time, if your unit reboots you are going to loose less of the show if it is recording than if you are watching from the buffer. I really don't care how people use there TiVos, but the only 100% sure way to not ever be negatively effected by a buffer dump is to not watch TV via the buffer without also recording it. It is also the only advise as users without access to being able to change the code that we can give people who are posting about being unhappy because of a buffer dump regardless of why the buffer dumped.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

dianebrat said:


> ... and because of that we are willing to press record* if it's that important*. Those who don't press record and rely on the buffer aren't "using it wrong" but there is always a risk, and that risk is easily averted.


You hit on one big point here in that I often watch shows that aren't "that important" to hit record but I would be annoyed if a software bug wiped out the buffer. If I change channel or the dog steps on the remote, I can't blame the device, but I can blame the device if there was an arbitrary software decision that killed the buffer without a good reason for doing so.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

atmuscarella said:


> I would think the point is if there is a buffer dump and you are watching TV from the buffer, it is a problem. Does it really matter why the buffer got dumped?


Yes, it matters very much why. One is my fault and the other is TiVo's fault. I am in control over my actions and can make decisions based on my personal cost/benefit analysis. If I cause a buffer dump based on my actions, I must live with it. If TiVo dumps the buffer for some stupid zero benefit reason then I get annoyed at the company for making a stupid choice and get a negative feeling towards the device and company.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

ah30k said:


> Yes, it matters very much why. One is my fault and the other is TiVo's fault. I am in control over my actions and can make decisions based on my personal cost/benefit analysis. If I cause a buffer dump based on my actions, I must live with it. If TiVo dumps the buffer for some stupid zero benefit reason then I get annoyed at the company for making a stupid choice and get a negative feeling towards the device and company.


I agree if I am having an issues it matters allot to me if I am causing the issue or if someone else is. I also agree that depending on who is causing the issue, there maybe different solutions to fixing the problem. In this case a bug has caused unexpected buffer dumps in certain situations, of course the solution to that narrow problem is for TiVo to fix the bug. I guess we could have either posted yes it would be a good idea for TiVo to fix the bug or not bothered to respond to a person posting they have a problem at all. Instead some of us posted the only user based solution/work around we are aware of, which happens to address buffer dumps in general.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

samccfl99 said:


> Thanks, so there are other bugs in Gen3? I am pretty much just a DVR user. I understand things take time to fix (now a regression is another story...sorry). Maybe I can PM you my TSN for testing, but only if you promise it will come as GEN*3!!!*


Oh yeah, the GUI breaks whenever the unit comes out of standby.


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## timckelley (Oct 15, 2002)

wmcbrine said:


> I'm not completely sure what you're talking about here, but it sounds like you're watching from the "LiveTV" buffer, even though the program is being recorded? If you were watching it from the "My Shows list", this wouldn't happen.


My wife does this; then she gets mad when it skips to another show. I keep telling her she's better off watching it from My Shows.


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## BobCamp1 (May 15, 2002)

ah30k said:


> You hit on one big point here in that I often watch shows that aren't "that important" to hit record but I would be annoyed if a software bug wiped out the buffer. If I change channel or the dog steps on the remote, I can't blame the device, but I can blame the device if there was an arbitrary software decision that killed the buffer without a good reason for doing so.


I watch college football like that. Four tuners, each one on a different game, pausing before switching channels.

If I recorded all four, that would take up over 25% of a 500 GB hard drive. If anybody in the "record it" camp wants to send me two free 3 TB 2.5" hard drives, the same model that's in the Bolt+, I will PM them my real name and address and would greatly appreciate it! Otherwise, they need to realize that watching multiple buffers is a real use case that other people successfully use all the time.

Finally, this feature must have been important because it got fast tracked into the next releases of both Gen 3 and Gen 4. TivoTed even told us to not panic as the fix is coming real soon.


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## ppctx (Sep 16, 2005)

BobCamp1 said:


> I watch college football like that. Four tuners, each one on a different game, pausing before switching channels.
> 
> If I recorded all four, that would take up over 25% of a 500 GB hard drive. If anybody in the "record it" camp wants to send me two free 3 TB 2.5" hard drives, the same model that's in the Bolt+, I will PM them my real name and address and would greatly appreciate it! Otherwise, they need to realize that watching multiple buffers is a real use case that other people successfully use all the time.
> 
> Finally, this feature must have been important because it got fast tracked into the next releases of both Gen 3 and Gen 4. TivoTed even told us to not panic as the fix is coming real soon.


Agree with you, take full advantage of the features. If you want to upgrade, there are some relatively inexpensive options. On a Bolt, I read that an drive 3TB or over, it will auto format it once installed, to a 3TB. over 3TB, up to 8TB, takes a little time on the computer. I have a 4T ready to go but lazy. A Guide to Upgrading Your Tivo Bolt, Tivo Premiere, Tivo Roamio, Tivo Roamio OTA, Tivo HD, Tivo Series 3 or Tivo Series 2 (Easily upgrade your Tivo Bolt, Roamio or Premiere to 300 Hours+ HD Capacity) - Also includes instructions on how to fix a broken Tivo.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

BobCamp1 said:


> Oh yeah, the GUI breaks whenever the unit comes out of standby.


What's Standby??? 

Never saw the point...on a Host Tivo. I understand why on a Mini (I don't need it there since I only have one Mini in my bedroom and I live alone).

Well lets hope they fix it for you and everyone in the next release (of Gen3) coming out next week (according to Ted)...


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

And Rovi/Tivo is still failing to address this bug and release a fix!

WTF is wrong with this company?

At this point in our personal 2017 "buying season", Tivo has lost two sales with lifetime contacts from my family and parents house, alone.

This is how you kill a User base.

I'd suspect a detectable number of customers must be investigating options and making new purchasing decisions, now, after experiencing buggy software and poor quality this year.

I cannot imagine how Rovi does not see this as a major issue. It impacts us every day, sometimes several times per day.

Somebody here "from Tivo" was stating the fix was already released in Hydra, and Roamio's were only one week behind.

What do he say now?


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

BobCamp1 said:


> I watch college football like that. Four tuners, each one on a different game, pausing before switching channels.
> 
> If I recorded all four, that would take up over 25% of a 500 GB hard drive. If anybody in the "record it" camp wants to send me two free 3 TB 2.5" hard drives, the same model that's in the Bolt+, I will PM them my real name and address and would greatly appreciate it! Otherwise, they need to realize that watching multiple buffers is a real use case that other people successfully use all the time.
> 
> Finally, this feature must have been important because it got fast tracked into the next releases of both Gen 3 and Gen 4. TivoTed even told us to not panic as the fix is coming real soon.


Just delete the games when you are done. Problem solved. I record all NFL games broadcast with a Bolt that has a 500GB drive. But I only have it set to keep a few of the recordings. So I don;t need to worry about the hard drive filling up on that Bolt. And if for some reason I do need space, I can delete the few NFL games on there, since they are all at least 4.5 hour recordings.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

avaddict said:


> And Rovi/Tivo is still failing to address this bug and release a fix!
> WTF is wrong with this company?
> At this point in our personal 2017 "buying season", Tivo has lost two sales with lifetime contacts from my family and parents house, alone.
> This is how you kill a User base.
> ...


You mean other than the fact that the fix is currently deploying to Gen3 machines and has been confirmed?

20.7.4.RC18


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

samccfl99 said:


> What's Standby???
> 
> Never saw the point...on a Host Tivo. I understand why on a Mini (I don't need it there since I only have one Mini in my bedroom and I live alone).
> 
> Well lets hope they fix it for you and everyone in the next release (of Gen3) coming out next week (according to Ted)...


I definitely see the point of standby on the host TiVo. Because the emergency alerts won't screw up the recordings when in standby. But I don't see the point of standby with the Mini.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

aaronwt said:


> But I don't see the point of standby with the Mini.


In Standby, a Mini will not grab a tuner for four hours when an EAS test/alert happens.


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## philco782 (Sep 28, 2014)

avaddict said:


> And Rovi/Tivo is still failing to address this bug and release a fix!


I did two back-to-back network connect to tivo processes last night (a little before midnight EST) and I got the "Pending Restart", and then i rebooted and it installed an update, and now I am on 20.7.4.RC18 and the bug seems to be fixed.

It's taken a bit longer then Ted said (he thought it might be released to Gen3 the beginning of the week after thanksgiving) but I've been connecting manually every day when I get off work, and last night was my night. I'm happy. I hope it stays this way. I'm glad they took this bug seriously..

Try to back-to-back connects, that seems to do the trick into getting the Tivo to force itself into an update, I dont know why, but tech support always suggested it, so thats what I've been doing.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

JoeKustra said:


> In Standby, a Mini will not grab a tuner for four hours when an EAS test/alert happens.


Yes, but I just hit the TiVo button when I'm done with a Mini to make sure it's not on any channel.

And I've tried standby with my Mini Vox and whether it's in standby or not, it's still the same temp when I come back to use it the next day. So I haven't seen an upside to using standby with it. Although I have not put a watt meter on it yet. I'll need to take at the power usage this weekend. But I can't see there being much differnce since I've only seen them temps rise when I'm actually watching something.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

So, I just ran a test of this error and it does, indeed, appear to be 'fixed'

Way to go AVAddict! (and TiVo?)

Now, if you can start a thread to get the FF>Play jump flaw fixed on my Premiere, we'll really be back to the normal good. Maybe don't tell Diane if you do?

-KP


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

kpeters59 said:


> So, I just ran a test of this error and it does, indeed, appear to be 'fixed'
> 
> Way to go AVAddict! (and TiVo?)
> 
> ...


There's no reason to play dump on the member you don't agree with, but if it makes you feel big, go ahead, I can handle myself.


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## CinciDVR (May 24, 2014)

aaronwt said:


> Yes, but I just hit the TiVo button when I'm done with a Mini to make sure it's not on any channel.


And after you hit the Tivo button on your Mini to make sure it's not on any channel, if an EAS happens it forces the Mini to grab a tuner which it then holds onto for four hours. I have a four tuner Roamio and two Minis. If the two Minis have grabbed tuners because of an EAS, then for the next four hours I only have two tuners available with which to record.

Before I started using standby on the Minis, I missed recordings because an EAS caused the Minis to grab tuners. I just don't remember whether that occurred during the time when a bug was causing Minis not to release a tuner after four hours. It really doesn't matter since putting the Minis into standby solves the problem whether the Minis only grab the tuners for four hours or forever.


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## emuman100 (Jul 3, 2003)

What was the last update version before the horrible UI overhaul? Perhaps, if one can make an image from the drive with that version and provide that image to Greg, we can preserve that version by using upgradesoftware=false on the bootpage, like how Series 3 and earlier units are prevented upgrade. This way, we can still use our Premieres with the classic UI.


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## kpeters59 (Jun 19, 2007)

This particular issue (at least on my Premiere) was corrected at the last update.

Now if the FF>Skip Ahead flaw could be reverted back, too, that would be great...

-KP


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

emuman100 said:


> What was the last update version before the horrible UI overhaul?


I think it was 20.7.1, which was about 3/2017. It was minor, and the one before that 20.6.3 was the version that shipped on my Roamio in November.


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## Moldy_Oldy_Computer_guy (Feb 5, 2018)

The only thing worse than TiVo is evey other DVR product on the market.

As with most software, rebooting fixes the problems. (At least until the next time you try to use it.) As a retired computer geek, (I’ve been computing since 2MHz was fast and 64k was huge) I can honestly say it’s a miracle things work as well as they do.

“Rebooting once a day keeps most software bugs away.”


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I'm glad I don't need to reboot any of my TiVos or any other device every day. The last time my TiVos rebooted was from an update. And the last time my two PCs that run 24/7 were rebooted was from an update. And the last time my cell phone or tablets were rebooted was from an update. They all run perfectly fine for many weeks or many months without being rebooted.


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## samccfl99 (Sep 7, 2013)

aaronwt said:


> I'm glad I don't need to reboot any of my TiVos or any other device every day. The last time my TiVos rebooted was from an update. And the last time my two PCs that run 24/7 were rebooted was from an update. And the last time my cell phone or tablets were rebooted was from an update. They all run perfectly fine for many weeks or many months without being rebooted.


Most devices need to rebooted once in a while. Memory leaks from crappy developed apps and cache gets mangled probably, among other things. My Roamio Pro usually runs over 90% used space and it needs rebooting every once in a while. PC's and phones also need it too, they all run better being on all the time, that's for sure!


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> There's no reason to play dump on the member you don't agree with, but if it makes you feel big, go ahead, I can handle myself.


 You dump and then do not want others to point it out for a chuckle.

Maybe the way you perceive this as someone trying to being bigger than you, is the inherent problem. That is not likely to be their motivation.

I suppose most people on this forum cannot direct message their peers in the community. Posting is the only way to share ideas with peers. Perhaps you could look at it that way. A person is expressing an idea that is a humorous quip that does not appear to be hateful nor destructive. It references you because you put yourself out there with your original comments that others picked up on as being less than cordial, perhaps. And now you complain because someone is having a laugh about it.

How about letting people communicate amongst themselves and most importantly allow them to express themselves. Maybe let us not attack the messenger for the way they posted their concern or ideas. Instead, stay on topic to the idea and you may see less of others having a light laugh about your past.

The future does not have to equal the past. It can be different.


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

avaddict said:


> You dump and then do not want others to point it out for a chuckle.
> 
> Maybe the way you perceive this as someone trying to being bigger than you, is the inherent problem. That is not likely to be their motivation.
> 
> ...


Seriously?
After EIGHT months you come back just to criticize me? I don't care how you attempt to magnanimously sugar coat it, WTG troll, *plonk*


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## avaddict (Nov 23, 2014)

dianebrat said:


> Seriously?
> After EIGHT months you come back just to criticize me? I don't care how you attempt to magnanimously sugar coat it, WTG troll, *plonk*


Why are you so abrasive, Diana? Did somebody in your life damage you; and for the remainder of your life everybody else is stupid? Though, I wish not, the name "brat" seems an appropriate handle for you.

Your passive aggressive nature displays _a pattern of mis-characterizing a situation_ before you spew your painful comedy. You mis-characterize me with your ridiculous 8 month assertion.

I am a member of this community. I post on what interests me. Why does another member need to use another member's posting frequency to make a point? Are you not comfortable with substance or the material of a subject?

You would do the right thing to stop attacking other people in this and all communities; If not, you will be subject to a few upstanding folks calling you out on your behavior. Communities should address these issues with difficult members. It's the right thing to do.

I believe it is people like you that discourage a lot of otherwise constructive people from participating in this destructive environment at Tivo Community forums. In another thread, an OP cannot even ask a question without a series of ridicule from the peanut gallery. Maybe the site administrators are just used to you and your type of agitation of other members.

In another thread you are inferring that somebody is a moronic twit. That is abuse even when you follow it with a wink.

You really know how to pollute a community and make an otherwise good place seem ugly and uninviting on the face of it.

I am inclined not to participate here because of your inability to control yourself. But I will anyway because on some level it is fun to watch another human being be so hateful. It's kind of spectacular from a human behavior standpoint. I watch NASCAR for the wrecks, by the way. Besides, there are good people here that want to be constructive despite your ankle biting. It has been shown, thankfully.

Alas, many, many forums across the Internet have folks like you corroding the quality of discourse; polluting the good spirit of each community.

I do not understand sniping at other people. But it happens. Generally speaking, I have empathy for the people who are made the butt of immature jokes at the poster's expense. Do you think you could genuinely be funny by creatively saying something ironic without the cornerstone of the joke being a moronic twit who the dialog is directed to (that is the User and in this case the O.P.)? Do people like you have a kind bone in their body?

I imagine the points you score from *Likes* might be addictive... but please keep in mind you are scoring ego points at the cost of the community.

Cheers!


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

avaddict said:


> Why are you so abrasive, Diana? Did somebody in your life damage you; and for the remainder of your life everybody else is stupid? Though, I wish not, the name "brat" seems an appropriate handle for you.
> In another thread you are inferring that somebody is a moronic twit. That is abuse even when you follow it with a wink.
> 
> You really know how to pollute a community and make an otherwise good place seem ugly and uninviting on the face of it.


I have never made any judgement that anyone here is stupid, and the thread you refer to does not have me inferring that the user was "a moronic twit" I was clearly commenting on the tone the website would use if it were actually abusive which is why it has a wink at the end.

But I've already spent far too many words on you and and I have no idea why you plastered that wall of text about me, if you want to make me the subject of your personal attacks feel free, because that seems to be your goal.


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## damiansnpvp (Jan 22, 2020)

k2ue said:


> Have you tried the alternatives? I did. I set off determined to cut the cord and burned thru it all: Plex, Emby, Kodi, DirecTVnow, CBS All Access, HDHomeRun, Playstation Vue, etc., ad nauseum. I have never seen so many bad interfaces without the good sense to steal the better parts of TiVo. They all remind me of today's magazines -- flossy pictures and big print, with no useful content. Many don't even offer a grid guide, and even when they do they are far less agile in doing something with the content you finally locate. None have a suggestion engine that often finds things we do indeed want to watch. TiVo is quintessentially American -- for all its flaws, where is there a better place to be? Nor are the alternatives cheaper -- getting Fox News will cost you $40+ per month in streaming packages that have it, and if you want the major Soaps for viewing on your schedule you will need to add both Hulu and CBS All Access. Roku and Fire TV think you want a screen full of big logo boxes, and resist presenting simple lists full of information. It's true Hydra won't yet do everything my TiVo-trained fingers could extract from the prior releases, but it offers more speed keys, and the I'm sure the good things left out will come back, as we point out their follies. Naturally, this being internet, the insults and character assassination will now commence. . .


I cut the cord 10 years ago with Kodi & TiVo. Kodi was a pain, but with a good build it was managable. I discovered 5 years ago stand alone APK APPS Ex: Terrarium TV (rip), Cyberflix, Bee TV etc. These are so good, I rarely use Kodi anymore. In fact Cyberflix is our go to app & we are there everyday.
My only major complaint with TiVo is not being able to use it as a stand alone box where I can add apps as I do on my Android Box & PC. I hate jumping back & forth. I did read something in a new TiVo system coming out called TiVo streaming 4k. It did say something about TiVo will be installed on android skin? I do hope they will allow us to add apps as they do on other devices.


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## Puppy76 (Oct 7, 2004)

damiansnpvp said:


> I cut the cord 10 years ago with Kodi & TiVo. Kodi was a pain, but with a good build it was managable. I discovered 5 years ago stand alone APK APPS Ex: Terrarium TV (rip), Cyberflix, Bee TV etc. These are so good, I rarely use Kodi anymore. In fact Cyberflix is our go to app & we are there everyday.
> My only major complaint with TiVo is not being able to use it as a stand alone box where I can add apps as I do on my Android Box & PC. I hate jumping back & forth. I did read something in a new TiVo system coming out called TiVo streaming 4k. It did say something about TiVo will be installed on android skin? I do hope they will allow us to add apps as they do on other devices.


it's just an Android TV device from Tivo. Probably has the distinction Of being the cheapest name brand Android TV device, but it's not really a "Tivo", I.e. a dvr.


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## spiderpumpkin (Dec 1, 2017)

Puppy76 said:


> it's just an Android TV device from Tivo. Probably has the distinct being the cheapest name brand Android TV device, but it's not really a "Tivo", I.e. a dvr.


The upcoming Tivo Streaming Stick is just a Tivo app on an AirTV Android TV stick.


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## PSU_Sudzi (Jun 4, 2015)

damiansnpvp said:


> I cut the cord 10 years ago with Kodi & TiVo. Kodi was a pain, but with a good build it was managable. I discovered 5 years ago stand alone APK APPS Ex: Terrarium TV (rip), Cyberflix, Bee TV etc. These are so good, I rarely use Kodi anymore. In fact Cyberflix is our go to app & we are there everyday.
> My only major complaint with TiVo is not being able to use it as a stand alone box where I can add apps as I do on my Android Box & PC. I hate jumping back & forth. I did read something in a new TiVo system coming out called TiVo streaming 4k. It did say something about TiVo will be installed on android skin? I do hope they will allow us to add apps as they do on other devices.


These are almost all if not all illegal services.


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## mattyro7878 (Nov 27, 2014)

"Ya know TiVo stream 4k is just a (insert noun) inside a ( insert noun) !!!"


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