# Tivo = Biggest scam EVER



## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

After 6 years of Tivo service, I have to say, I've never, ever run across a bigger scam artist. This tops netflix and gamefly, on cancelllation and refusal to provide service when paid. Talk about just flat out ridiculous... here's what happened:

Over the summer, I was @ my sisters, and we got to talking about Tivo, and she mentioned she wanted one. Well, being the nice guy I am, I told her that when I was upgrading, I would send mine to her.

August came, as did the 4, and I grabbed one. Having two already, I called in and told them to cancel the service from the one that was up in September (already paid, etc), as I was shipping that to her. This was done, or so I thought....

Today, I got a notice from PayPal that they attempted to charge the card again for this device. Of course, that threw me, and I had to check it... Turns out, yup, they've been charging the device since September, DESPITE being told not to charge the device, and to take it off of my account.

This is what is called fraud, a scam.. Apparently, they're so desperate for cash that they will just keep charging the card, no matter what, despite being told to take it off of your account. This is the *first* time I've seen them do this, but this is just ridiculous. Time to look for other alternatives, apparently.


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## Aero 1 (Aug 8, 2007)

wait, tivo takes paypal?


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

Aero 1 said:


> wait, tivo takes paypal?


PayPal has a debit card for business users.
Every time a charge is run on that card, I'm notified via email.


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## tatergator1 (Mar 27, 2008)

Feel better? Sounds like a CSR screwed up. Wouldn't be the first time. Certainly annoying, but in no way a scam. I don't suppose you called them to clear up any misunderstanding.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

tatergator1 said:


> in no way a scam


This is the mere definition of scam... A dishonest scheme, or a fraud



tatergator1 said:


> I don't suppose you called them to clear up any misunderstanding.


They are about as useless as monkeys, insisting that they will do nothing but give credit, not refund the charge, not do anything else, only after their pathetic investigation.

Continuing to charge a card for service that they were informed was to be discontinued, as it was passed on to someone else is fraud.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

Stupidity is not a scam.

Resolve by talking with a supervisor, or contact your credit card. Or both.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I don't like anyplace that the only way you can pay is with an auto bill option. The same is true for a web site "remembering" my credit card number - I want the option of saying NO do not save the number. 

At least there should be away to cancel service on line effective when every you want it to be. Having to call is just plain B.S. - and yes I understand why they do it that way, I still don't like it.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

jrtroo said:


> Stupidity is not a scam.
> 
> Resolve by talking with a supervisor, or contact your credit card. Or both.


 Setting up a system that is always "stupid" in the companies favor is a scam.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

jrtroo said:


> Stupidity is not a scam.


Charging for service after being told to cancel is.
Not providing a refund on demand when said company is called on it, definitely is.



jrtroo said:


> Resolve by talking with a supervisor, or contact your credit card. Or both.


Supervisor = no help at all.
PayPal, they will be. Filling out the forms now.



atmuscarella said:


> At least there should be away to cancel service on line effective when every you want it to be. Having to call is just plain B.S. - and yes I understand why they do it that way, I still don't like it.


I don't mind having to call. It's an annoyance, trying to deflect their sales pitches, but it's what it is. This is the 3rd one I've had to call for in the past couple years (two active, one front room, one bedroom), and the only one that they haven't actually followed through with.

Looking at my account, they *still* haven't taken this out. I'll check it again in a day or so, but this is just wrong, on so many levels


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

twhiting9275 said:


> After 6 years of Tivo service, I have to say, I've never, ever run across a bigger scam artist. This tops netflix and gamefly, on cancelllation and refusal to provide service when paid. Talk about just flat out ridiculous... here's what happened:
> 
> Over the summer, I was @ my sisters, and we got to talking about Tivo, and she mentioned she wanted one. Well, being the nice guy I am, I told her that when I was upgrading, I would send mine to her.
> 
> ...


I would hardly describe you being slightly overcharged on your TiVo account as the 'biggest scam ever'.

Do you really see yourself as more of a tragic victim than the people Bernie Madoff ripped off?


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

tatergator1 said:


> Feel better? Sounds like a CSR screwed up. Wouldn't be the first time. Certainly annoying, but in no way a scam. I don't suppose you called them to clear up any misunderstanding.


I don't think so. I'm pretty sure you can only stop regular payments from Paypal by going through Paypal.

I get the impression that the OP is a sandwich short of a picnic and that TiVO has done nothing wrong.


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## twhiting9275 (Nov 17, 2006)

button1066 said:


> I don't think so. I'm pretty sure you can only stop regular payments from Paypal by going through Paypal.


read, then post


> PayPal has a debit card for business users.





button1066 said:


> I get the impression that the OP is a sandwich short of a picnic and that TiVO has done nothing wrong.


Failing to terminate service when required by client is not 'doing nothing wrong'
Charging card when specifically informed not to do so by client is not 'doing nothing wrong'


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

twhiting9275 said:


> read, then post
> 
> Failing to terminate service when required by client is not 'doing nothing wrong'
> Charging card when specifically informed not to do so by client is not 'doing nothing wrong'


Just contact Paypal and tell them to stop the payments.

You already called TiVo to cancel service. Did you even check on the TiVo website that service has been stopped on the DVR you wanted to cancel? Of course not because you are the victim of a scam aren't you? Maybe you should go to the police instead of posting on here since you are convinced you are a victim of the greatest crime in history.


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## jrtroo (Feb 4, 2008)

I stand corrected. 

Tivo has a conspiracy to not cancel service upon request, and has been able to hide this activity for years despite complaints to local, state, and national authorities. I forgot that their CSRs never make mistakes and mis-code future account activity, and that in this case the system was programmed to take your order and not fulfill it.

This scam is also a travesty. It affects the poor who try to gamble out of debt, the old who fall for emails from Nigerian royalty, and the stupid who invite in door to door solicitors who offer worthless insurance.

Right.

Note- I also dislike any requirement to sign up for monthly billing to be pulled from an account or credit card. Sometimes they have issues and pull too much, I have seen it happen too many times. But it a fact of life for many services like a gym, tollways, tivo, cell phones, ect.

Though, I sorry to hear how many hoops it is taking to resolve. I find that a much bigger issue than any mistake initially made.


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## duanew (Feb 1, 2007)

This seems more common than it should be. 

A couple of years ago I cancelled my DSL with AT&T to go to cable modem (faster speeds). I noticed a month later that it was still active so I called and tried to cancel again. At this time they had a record of my previous cancellation call and said that they would get it handled. I noticed a month later that it was still on and and called with the same result with notes of all of my cancellation calls. I then a month later got a phone call from a collections agency about my bill that I have not been paying for my DSL service. AT&T got a pretty irate phone call after that and the issue was resolved pretty soon after that. I made sure to check my credit report for the issue and found nothing.

This is not an isolated incident. It is something that you have to look out for these days it seems.


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## button1066 (Sep 4, 2012)

http://blog.ilmuit.com/zainal/2008/01/07/how-to-cancel-paypal-automatic-payment/


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## WhiskeyTango (Sep 20, 2006)

It's a billing error. Quit being a drama queen.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

This is nothing compared to FiOS with Verizon billing(Verizon Wireless is much better). They are atrocious. It can take months to get things straightened out. And you are talking about a lot more money then with TiVo. This issue with TiVo is nothing. And even the billing issues with FiOS aren't that big of a deal. It will eventually get straightened out, just like with TiVo. Billing issues can happen any time with any service. This is certainly nothing new. And certainly not a scam.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

twhiting9275 said:


> This is the mere definition of scam... A dishonest scheme, or a fraud


Both of those definitions require a primary component: intent. In order to be guilty of dishonesty or of fraud, one must have intent to deceive or intent to defraud. In the case of a corporation, it is also only true if it is the intent of senior management. If a CSR steals your credit card information, the company may, depending on the circumstances, be held responsible in a civil proceeding, but never a criminal one, unless the theft is committed with the advice and consent of company policy. Fraud is a criminal matter, not a civil one. The CSR can befinitely be tried and imprisoned for identity theft in that case, but not merely for accidentally screwing up your billing.



twhiting9275 said:


> They are about as useless as monkeys


Perhaps, but that makes them incompetents, not frauds.



twhiting9275 said:


> Continuing to charge a card for service that they were informed was to be discontinued, as it was passed on to someone else is fraud.


Only if it is intentional on the part of the company. If you truly believe that to be the case, you are delusional.


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## randyb359 (Jan 3, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

randyb359 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor


'One of my favorite sayings. Legally apropos in this case, too.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

So you cancelled it in August, and they charged you in September, and this gets you this worked up?

Drama queen pretty much fits WhiskeyTango...


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## edtude (Oct 12, 2009)

Umm just from my own experience and I do believe what Button was trying to inform the op of with his link is that the OP needs to cancel the recurring payment with Pay-Pal not with Tivo. Something I would look into.


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

From OP's last post before this thread...

{twhiting9245}OOPS. It's not the end of the world. GO ELSEWHERE. Quit throwing a tantrum{twhiting9275}

Looks like someone needs to take his own advice


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## tomm1079 (May 10, 2005)

why didnt you catch it the first time they charged you?


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

When I cancelled service TiVo gave me a case number and said if anything goes incorrectly just call and reference the case number, nothing went wrong of course.


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

I had a billing issue on a TiVo which I had on a payment plan, I called and it was fixed.

I never let my emotions show over the phone which might be key to things like this.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

twhiting9275 said:


> PayPal has a debit card for business users.
> Every time a charge is run on that card, I'm notified via email.





twhiting9275 said:


> Today, I got a notice from PayPal that they attempted to charge the card again for this device. Of course, that threw me, and I had to check it... Turns out, yup, they've been charging the device since September, DESPITE being told not to charge the device, and to take it off of my account.


Why didn't it "throw you" when you got the same notice last month? and why did you ignore it?

and I don't think that getting an extra $25.90 from a customer qualifies as the "Biggest scam EVER" because I believe that other scams have taken more money from unsuspecting victims.


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## farmermac (Jan 31, 2012)

Biggest scam EVER? More then Bernie Madeoff??

Lets put things in perspective. TiVo had plenty of faults but a simple billing error isn't a big deal


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## buscuitboy (Aug 8, 2005)

Yea, I recently had a billing error. TiVo accidentally charged me the normal $399 lifetime fee on my Series 2 when they said it would be a $99 fee. I called them up and explained. Within a week, the $399 was refunded on my card and $99 was properly charged. No biggie and s$&t happens.


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## lillevig (Dec 7, 2010)

I wouldn't count on PayPal to refund anything. My experience has been that they will do something about stuff bought on eBay but not necessarily about services external to eBay. I had that unfortunate experience a couple of years ago but my credit card company came through with a refund when I called them.

On the original topic, maybe I missed it but did the OP ever say anything about his sister transferring the Tivo to her account? If she left it on his account maybe that's why they kept charging. I would think it would be hard to charge for a box that isn't even on your account but stranger things have happened in the world. Just one more reason I go with Lifetime. I still have two lifetime S1's on my account because the current owners never transferred them and Tivo won't remove them on my say so.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

lrhorer said:


> Both of those definitions require a primary component: intent. In order to be guilty of dishonesty or of fraud, one must have intent to deceive or intent to defraud.


With all due respect, when it comes to a large corporation intent should be assumed. Otherwise apathy becomes an excuse for defrauding a customer, because they really don't care. How many times have people come onto the site with billing issues where TiVo continued to charge someone and when called on it didn't want to issue a refund?

Companies too often hide behind their own bureaucracies and stone wall you when you call for restitution. It has to stop I say! Ok, so maybe that's a little extreme, but based on all my communications with TiVo and other companies it's true.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

Stormspace said:


> With all due respect, when it comes to a large corporation intent should be assumed. Otherwise apathy becomes an excuse for defrauding a customer, because they really don't care. How many times have people come onto the site with billing issues where TiVo continued to charge someone and when called on it didn't want to issue a refund?
> 
> Companies too often hide behind their own bureaucracies and stone wall you when you call for restitution. It has to stop I say! Ok, so maybe that's a little extreme, but based on all my communications with TiVo and other companies it's true.


I purchased a TiVo that had monthly service on it, when i xfered that TiVo to my name I had to use my credit card, the service was paid up for about three weeks, after that i wanted it stopped (so i could put Lifetime on the then fully tested TiVo). The CSR told me it would be stopped, I asked for a case number that would reference that I would not be charged on the 25th of that month and the service be stopped. I was charged, called TiVo with the case number and TiVo put lifetime on the TiVo giving me cr. for the months charge. I don't know what would have happened if I just wanted the credit without putting Lifetime on the TiVo (this was a $99 lifetime deal).


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Sounds to me like for one reason or another the TiVo never got transferred. One of three people screwed up. The OP, the OP's sister, or TiVo. My Spidey sense picks door #1.


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## dlfl (Jul 6, 2006)

I get hit by another "biggest scam ever" several times each month. It's a brutal world.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

Stormspace said:


> With all due respect, when it comes to a large corporation intent should be assumed.


Not in this context. If any company actually made it a matter of policy for their CSRs to attempt to defraud the customer, then all it would take is one fired CSR (and CSRs get fired all the time) to blow the whistle and the company would be sued into oblivion.



Stormspace said:


> Otherwise apathy becomes an excuse for defrauding a customer, because they really don't care.


Not caring is not fraudulent intent, and not a scam.



Stormspace said:


> How many times have people come onto the site with billing issues where TiVo continued to charge someone and when called on it didn't want to issue a refund?


Quite often but few have any leg on which to stand. There is a huge difference between a person not liking having been charged with something and being entitled to a refund. I have had billing issues with TiVo in the past. I have never had any problem getting a legitimate billing issue resolved.



Stormspace said:


> Companies too often hide behind their own bureaucracies and stone wall you when you call for restitution.


When it comes to technical issues, this is without question the case. Billing issues are another matter, and getting in touch with someone who can competently handle a billing error is usually much easier than getting someone on the phone who knows anything about technical issues.

Now there are certainly many companies whose billing policies are offensive, but that is another matter. My local water company, for example, charges a monthly fee for sewer service that is based upon winter usage. If one has a leak in the winter, the sewer fee for the rest of the year is huge. They refuse to lower the monthly fee or refund any of the surplus even if it is obvious the fees are inflated.



Stormspace said:


> It has to stop I say! Ok, so maybe that's a little extreme, but based on all my communications with TiVo and other companies it's true.


How many times have you had billing issues with TiVo that were not resolved?


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

dlfl said:


> I get hit by another "biggest scam ever" several times each month. It's a brutal world.


I get hit with it every 4 years.

As my cousin pointed out, all government is a Ponzi scheme.


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