# Fried my HDMI port... now what?



## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

So I recently plugged in a USB cable to my PC which is on the same surge protector as my Tivo and got a flashing blue spark, all power in the room almost went out, and I got a minor shock as soon as the plug touched the USB port. Ever since, my HDMI port has been dead. Guess it got fried being that it's on the same surge protector as my PC. Anyway, called Tivo and betwen the money they want to fix it AND the money they want to transfer my lifetime subscription over to the factory refurb I figured I'll just use component cables. Has anyone got their HDMI port fixed before? Where ? Was it pricey? Thanks.


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## RhoXS (Mar 27, 2006)

Something does not make sense. There is not enough energy available in a USB connection to make a spark that is anything more than barely visible with a magnifying glass. What you describe sounds like a 120 volt short, probably to ground, but I cannot visualize either how you accomplished that if both devices are plugged into the same plug strip. By being plugged into the same plug strip there cannot be potential difference between the two cases unless you modified the three prong plug of your PC's power supply (broke off the ground prong and then plugged it in backwards) or forced the two prong polarized plug of the TIVO in the wrong way. Please describe in more detail what you as did as, frankly, something is amiss with your explanation.


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## robomeister (Feb 4, 2005)

JZ1276,

Have you tried unplugging power from your TiVo, unplug the HDMI cable, waiting a few minutes, then plugging power back in? Wait till the TiVo reboots to TiVo Central, then plug in the HDMI cable. Sometimes the HDMI port can get mixed signals and simply stop working. It is constantly looking for a well formed signal and might have gotten confused during the "surge."

To answer your question, I haven't had any problems with my HDMI ports, so I haven't tried to fix them. You could look at Weaknees and see how much they want to transfer the Lifetime from your broken TiVo to a replacement one. I actually need to look into that for one of my Tivos that is very dead.

robomeister


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

RhoXS said:


> Something does not make sense. There is not enough energy available in a USB connection to make a spark that is anything more than barely visible with a magnifying glass. What you describe sounds like a 120 volt short, probably to ground, but I cannot visualize either how you accomplished that if both devices are plugged into the same plug strip. By being plugged into the same plug strip there cannot be potential difference between the two cases unless you modified the three prong plug of your PC's power supply (broke off the ground prong and then plugged it in backwards) or forced the two prong polarized plug of the TIVO in the wrong way. Please describe in more detail what you as did as, frankly, something is amiss with your explanation.


Thanks for your response. You sound like you are knowledgeable when it comes to this stuff so hopefully you can help me. My only idea is that the outlet might not be properly grounded or the surge protector might be no good. I'm going to explain in full detail....
Everything is plugged into one outlet. The first socket has a surge protector plugged into it. In that surge protector I have a TV, Tivo, Receiver, router, BR player, subwoofer, and a home theater PC plugged into it. The second socket has another surge protector plugged into it which has my main PC, desktop speakers, printer, monitor, and a 4 bay external hard drive enclosure (which is what caused the short) plugged into it. If I plug the USB cable from the hard drive enclosure into my main PC, it works fine but when I plug it into my home theater PC (regardless of which USB port I use) thats when the electric goes nuts (which is how the HDMI port on my Tivo got damaged). I know I probably have wayyyy more than I should have plugged into a single outlet, but I never had a problem before and if that was the cause then wouldn't the same thing be happening when plugged into my main PC?


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

robomeister said:


> JZ1276,
> 
> Have you tried unplugging power from your TiVo, unplug the HDMI cable, waiting a few minutes, then plugging power back in? Wait till the TiVo reboots to TiVo Central, then plug in the HDMI cable. Sometimes the HDMI port can get mixed signals and simply stop working. It is constantly looking for a well formed signal and might have gotten confused during the "surge."
> 
> ...


I did what you suggested and it didnt work. I've tried everything I can think of. I tried a different HDMI cable, I made sure the input on my TV was working, I tried a different input on my TV, tried rebooting and unplugging the unit for about 30 mins. The port is definitely dead.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

JZ1276 said:


> Thanks for your response. You sound like you are knowledgeable when it comes to this stuff so hopefully you can help me. My only idea is that the outlet might not be properly grounded or the surge protector might be no good. I'm going to explain in full detail....
> Everything is plugged into one outlet. The first socket has a surge protector plugged into it. In that surge protector I have a TV, Tivo, Receiver, router, BR player, subwoofer, and a home theater PC plugged into it. The second socket has another surge protector plugged into it which has my main PC, desktop speakers, printer, monitor, and a 4 bay external hard drive enclosure (which is what caused the short) plugged into it. If I plug the USB cable from the hard drive enclosure into my main PC, it works fine but when I plug it into my home theater PC (regardless of which USB port I use) thats when the electric goes nuts (which is how the HDMI port on my Tivo got damaged). I know I probably have wayyyy more than I should have plugged into a single outlet, but I never had a problem before and if that was the cause then wouldn't the same thing be happening when plugged into my main PC?


I hope your outlet is on a dedicated 20amp circuit!


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

It does sound like a polarity problem -- and your neutral is hot on one of your branches. Have you tested your connections with a voltmeter (testing hot->ground and neutral->ground)?


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

parzec said:


> I hope your outlet is on a dedicated 20amp circuit!


No idea



parzec said:


> It does sound like a polarity problem -- and your neutral is hot on one of your branches. Have you tested your connections with a voltmeter (testing hot->ground and neutral->ground)?


I know nothing about this stuff. I have an electrician coming to check it out on Tuesday. After doing hours of searching on the net, my guess is a grounding problem. Liek I said though, both of my PCs are plugged into the same outlet (just on different sockets). That being said, is it still possible it could be a grounding prob?


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

JZ1276 said:


> No idea
> 
> I know nothing about this stuff. I have an electrician coming to check it out on Tuesday. After doing hours of searching on the net, my guess is a grounding problem. Liek I said though, both of my PCs are plugged into the same outlet (just on different sockets). That being said, is it still possible it could be a grounding prob?


Yes -- reversed polarity can be considered a sort of grounding issue, too.


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## RhoXS (Mar 27, 2006)

parzec said:


> It does sound like a polarity problem -- and your neutral is hot on one of your branches. Have you tested your connections with a voltmeter (testing hot->ground and neutral->ground)?


I agree. I think there is a high probability that there is 120 VAC between the cases of the two devices.

Since both plug strips are plugged into the same receptacle, the receptacle may not be the problem. HOWEVER, if the Hot & Neutral wires are reversed as they connect to the receptacle, then there may be 120 VAC between the cases and a ground picked up from somewhere else.

Other probable causes would be related to the plugs being improperly used (grounding prong cut off, two wire polarized plug forced backwards into a plastic extention cord or plug strip, etc.).

BTW, the typical residential convenience receptical is protected with a 15 amp breaker because #14 wire is universally used unless there is a need for greater ampacity. I doubt highly that it is protected at 20 amps as that would require #12 wire and #12 wire is not used in residential construction except for specific purpose applications. Receptacles are typically chained so the total load on the circuit includes not only what is plugged into the subject receptacle but everything else also on that same circuit. I doubt the electronics are collectively using 1800 Watts (15 amps @ 120 VAC) so a 15 amp circuit is most likely sufficient.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

RhoXS said:


> BTW, the typical residential convenience receptical is protected with a 15 amp breaker because #14 wire is universally used unless there is a need for greater ampacity. I doubt highly that it is protected at 20 amps as that would require #12 wire and #12 wire is not used in residential construction except for specific purpose applications. Receptacles are typically chained so the total load on the circuit includes not only what is plugged into the subject receptacle but everything else also on that same circuit. I doubt the electronics are collectively using 1800 Watts (15 amps @ 120 VAC) so a 15 amp circuit is most likely sufficient.


Sorry but the typical residential outlet is protected by a 20A breaker and has been for the last 20 years or so. All branch circuits are 12 awg conductors. Older homes are a different story.

Robb


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## jcthorne (Jan 28, 2002)

At least in this area (Houston) new construction uses 15a breakers and 14g wire for lighting circuits, 20a breaker and 12g wire for recepticals. A 20a dedicated outlet would have a 20a receptical which is different from a 15a receptical (one blade horizontal on 20a plug).


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

If the breaker is 20A, then the wire has to be #12, and the receptacles have to be rated for 20A (neutral slot accomodates horizontal or vertical blades), dedicated or not.

Sounds like one of the OPs surge protector strips went bad.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

steve614 said:


> If the breaker is 20A, then the wire has to be #12, and the receptacles have to be rated for 20A (neutral slot accomodates horizontal or vertical blades), dedicated or not.
> 
> Sounds like one of the OPs surge protector strips went bad.


Once again, sorry guy's, I'm not looking to start trouble but:

A 20A breaker requires 12/2 to the branch as stated above but a quantity of (1) 15A duplex receptacle or more on the branch is and has been acceptable for many many years. Here are a few links:

http://forum.doityourself.com/electrical-c-d-c/64659-15a-outlet-20a-circuit.html

http://www.thathomesite.com/forums/load/wiring/msg0107584416796.html?19

All of my current receptacles are 15A with 12/2 and a 20A breaker.

Robb
PS: I'm on the way out now but I'll bust out the NEC later and paste some info for you guys from that.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

JZ1276 said:


> No idea
> 
> I know nothing about this stuff. I have an electrician coming to check it out on Tuesday.


Unplug everything from that outlet and don't use it until the electrician corrects the issue. I think a UPS would have protected your Tivo. You should buy a UPS.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Robbdoe1 said:


> A 20A breaker requires 12/2 to the branch as stated above but a quantity of (1) 15A duplex receptacle or more on the branch is and has been acceptable for many many years. Here are a few links:
> 
> http://forum.doityourself.com/electrical-c-d-c/64659-15a-outlet-20a-circuit.html
> 
> ...


Thanks, Robb. There's something I didn't know.

My house is 100% 12/2 (BX, but that's another story.)

I've been buying 20A everything and was worried that I can't find 20A wall switches. The biggest pain is the 50 year old AWG 12 is really thick and stiff so mounting the devices and closing up the boxes is torture.


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Robbdoe1 said:


> Once again, sorry guy's, I'm not looking to start trouble but:
> 
> A 20A breaker requires 12/2 to the branch as stated above but a quantity of (1) 15A duplex receptacle or more on the branch is and has been acceptable for many many years.


That may be true as per the elecrical code and/or your jurisdiction, but you try and do that here in Dallas, you will fail the electrical inspection. 
The inspectors around here can be nit-picky and the city's code authority supercedes the electrical code.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> That being said, is it still possible it could be a grounding prob?


 Grounds are only one of many solutions. Any solution in place means you should not have seen that spark. Even if grounds failed, other failures had to exist to get that spark. IOW you must have multiple problems.

If your electrician understands this, then he will use an $18 multimeter to first find the component (in that long list) that has failed. And then fix the wiring defective (ie a defective ground) that permitted that defect to create damage.

You saw a spark on that HDMI port. If that port is then damaged, only replacing semiconductors is your solution.

You have two problems. One is to fix a defective port. Another is to locate multiple failures that are necessary if 120 VAC creates that damage.

Anyone can find this problem in minutes with a multimeter. With the meter on AC, then simply measure between two points. For example, measure the bodies (or safety ground holes) of each power strip. Is there zero voltages between those? Meausre between cable body and the matiing metal inside the HDMI port. Does a voltage (ie more than a single digit) exist between those two?

Or was the spark due to a static electric discharge from your body?


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## BruceShultes (Oct 2, 2006)

I don't remember the name of the cables, but the house I used to live in was wired in the 1920's.

The cable had a metal exterior jacket with two shielded wires running inside. The metal jacket acted as a ground.

I remember that sometime in the early sixties the shielding on one of the interior wires wore out enough that it created a short between the interior wire and the metal exterior jacket.

None of the fuses in the house blew, but the metal jacket became so hot that it nearly caused a fire.

The only reason the house didn't burn down is a neighbor noticed the smoke starting to come out of the back door, saw what was happening and pulled the master switch shutting down all power to the house.

I doubt a circuit breaker would have behaved any better than the fuse and I suspect that the the voltage running to the electrical outlet when this happened was probably closer to 220 volts than 110.

I know we also had to replace the freezer that was plugged into that outlet as well.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

The first thing you should do is go to a hardware store and pick up an outlet tester. The ones I've seen are generally a small plug with three lights on the back. You plug it into your outlet. If the lights light correctly (there's a chart on the gizmo), all is fine. If the lights do not light correctly, you have a problem and should contact an electrician or a friend who knows how to repair such things. The tester is both relatively cheap and relatively idiot-proof to use.

Here's a picture of one such device from ace hardware:

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3099774

It won't detect all faults, but it will detect the most common ones.



Robbdoe1 said:


> Sorry but the typical residential outlet is protected by a 20A breaker and has been for the last 20 years or so. All branch circuits are 12 awg conductors. Older homes are a different story.


Every house I've lived in during my lifetime has used 15 amp circuit breakers, 14ga wire, and 15 amp branch outlets except the kitchen which typically uses 20 amp service. This includes a new house I had constructed in 2002.

Of course, your mileage may vary, and I'm sure there are houses with 20 amp service to all outlets, but it is not a requirement in general.

Also beware that there is such a thing as a "spit-wired receptacle" where a duplex receptacle is treated as two independent receptacles with different circuits feeding them. Such a thing, in combination with ungrounded equipment or a bad ground would probably be very very bad with consumer electronics hooked up to it. I'm really surprised the NEC allows it.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

smbaker said:


> ...Also beware that there is such a thing as a "spit-wired receptacle" where a duplex receptacle is treated as two independent receptacles with different circuits feeding them. Such a thing, in combination with ungrounded equipment or a bad ground would probably be very very bad with consumer electronics hooked up to it. I'm really surprised the NEC allows it.


It would only be a problem if you were dumb enough to miswire it to connect both hot black wires to one outlet. You'd have to be really be trying to do that.

The two circuits are very likely going to have common _neutral_ and the ground has little to do with it.

My kitchen with those uncooperative stiff thick 12GA wires has two duplexes in a single box on separate circuits in two locations. I figured it out with little effort, even as I put in 4 GCFIs with protected outlets feeding off each.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

westom said:


> Grounds are only one of many solutions. Any solution in place means you should not have seen that spark. Even if grounds failed, other failures had to exist to get that spark. IOW you must have multiple problems.
> 
> If your electrician understands this, then he will use an $18 multimeter to first find the component (in that long list) that has failed. And then fix the wiring defective (ie a defective ground) that permitted that defect to create damage.
> 
> ...


Hey , thanks for your response. The spark was not from the HDMI port, it was from the USB port of my home theater pc that I plugged the external hard drive case into. NO WAY this was from static electricity. I tried plugging this in 3 times and the same thing happened. I plugged it into my main PC many times which is on a different surge protector with no problems. The Tivo is on the same surge protector as the home theater PC. When I tried pluggibng it in, all the power in the room went dim, I heard a noise, got a spark, and then the TV screen was blank due to the HDMI port being damaged.

I'm going to try plugging this home theater pc into a difefernt outlet and then connect the USB cable to it again. If it fails again, then I know its either the surge protector, outlet or one of my components causing the issue.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

shwru980r said:


> Unplug everything from that outlet and don't use it until the electrician corrects the issue. I think a UPS would have protected your Tivo. You should buy a UPS.


whats a UPS??


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## A J Ricaud (Jun 25, 2002)

JZ1276 said:


> whats a UPS??


Uninterruptible power supply:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> The Tivo is on the same surge protector as the home theater PC. When I tried pluggibng it in, all the power in the room went dim, I heard a noise, got a spark, and then the TV screen was blank due to the HDMI port being damaged.


Tivo apparently has a major internal fault. No AC mains current should be through a USB port. Galvanic isolation or some other serious problem exists. In the Tivo. And probably inside the other appliance. A short so massive that, well, dimming lights imply a current well in excess of 20 amps - something below but approaching 100 amps. Why less than 100 amps? Because lights dimmed (for how long?) and did not trip a 20 amp breaker.

As stated earlier, multiple failures must exist. Critically important will be a voltage reading where the spark occurred using a millimeter's AC and DC settings. Be sure the electrician fixes nothing until numbers are first obtained and recorded so that additional assistance here is possible.

Electrician can only fix (and typically understands) a failure where it exists electrically. Electricians often have too little knowledge to understand electronics failures. Those numbers are critical for identifying the other problems.

If AC mains was flowing through a Tivo defect, possible is another defective appliance for the outgoing current path. Voltage numbers important for identifying all defects.

smbaker and netringer discussed a common neutral wiring. Is that related to the problem? Multimeter numbers would even identify that problem as well as other suspects - all in but a few digits. Measurement would even report what that outlet tester might report - if a miswired receptacle was related to the problem. Either get yourself or have the electrician report those volt numbers (where it sparks) before fixing anything.

Doubtful is that a common neutral exists. One 20 amp circuit provides so much power that all those appliances would not even consume half. No reason for a "split wire receptacle" wiring to exist.

UPS would do nothing. A UPS so often recommended by a majority only because retail advertising tells them how to think. The UPS has only one purpose - to provide temporary (and often) 'dirty' electricity during a blackout. Nothing more.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

westom said:


> Tivo apparently has a major internal fault. No AC mains current should be through a USB port. Galvanic isolation or some other serious problem exists. In the Tivo. And probably inside the other appliance. A short so massive that, well, dimming lights imply a current well in excess of 20 amps - something below but approaching 100 amps. Why less than 100 amps? Because lights dimmed (for how long?) and did not trip a 20 amp breaker.
> 
> As stated earlier, multiple failures must exist. Critically important will be a voltage reading where the spark occurred using a millimeters AC and DC settings. Be sure the electrician fixes nothing until numbers are first obtained and recorded so that additional assistance here is possible.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstood my problem. When I plugged in my external hard drive enclosure via USB (which is plugged into the surge protector) to my mini PC (which is all on the same surge protector as Tivo), thats when the short or whatever it was occurred. I didnt plug anything into the Tivo. The only reason I think the fuse wasnt tripped was bc I pulled out that USB plug quick enough for it not to happen.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> I think you misunderstood my problem. When I plugged in my external hard drive enclosure via USB (which is plugged into the surge protector) to my mini PC (which is all on the same surge protector as Tivo), thats when the short or whatever it was occurred


 Your fuse did not trip because something in a circuit through appliances probably was the fuse - it vaporized.

Previously your post implied a Tivo was in the connection. Change Tivo to any other appliance. You still have the same problem. A problem that can only be answered with speculation because we do not have numbers for the voltage between that USB connector and port. And because you did not list every wire to every appliance - including a cable TV wire, etc. The entire circuit was not defined. We only have a spark on a USB cable - which must never exist due to galvanic isolation and other redundant protection.

Current through that USB port must never exceed 100 ma during a connection. You would probably need something like your tongue to detect that current. So much current - well in excess of 20 amps - would be required to dim lights.

Appreciate how a breaker works. A 20 amp breaker will conduct something like 25 amps for 5 minutes before tripping. Will conduct 80 amps for maybe 30 seconds before tripping. Will conduct 125 amps for 0.5 seconds before tripping. So which number applies to your short?

Dimming lights say you had massive current passing through a USB cable (which is difficult to believe). What is the appliance on either side of that cable? Each one is suppose to galvanically isolate AC mains from that cable. At least one and maybe two connected both sides of that cable directly to AC mains. (Or are you saying AC mains had nothing to do with it - another possibility as I scam through your previous post that really do not provide sufficient information.)

See those numbers? A more than 25 amp short would probably be necessary to dim lights (incandescent lights or were you discussing lights in an appliance?).

Current on a USB cable must be so tiny that, well, 0.1 amps times 5 volts - that wattage would not even glow a wall mounted night light.

To have a better answer, provide voltage numbers on that USB cable when the cable is not yet connected. For example, a measurement of 60 VAC would indicate a failure inside at least one of those appliances. Then you disconnect each, one at a time from the power strips, until the 60 volts disappears. Yes, there is no replacement for numbers if you want to locate what is probably more than one failure.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

westom said:


> Your fuse did not trip because something in a circuit through appliances probably was the fuse - it vaporized.
> 
> Previously your post implied a Tivo was in the connection. Change Tivo to any other appliance. You still have the same problem. A problem that can only be answered with speculation because we do not have numbers for the voltage between that USB connector and port. And because you did not list every wire to every appliance - including a cable TV wire, etc. The entire circuit was not defined. We only have a spark on a USB cable - which must never exist due to galvanic isolation and other redundant protection.
> 
> ...





westom said:


> Your fuse did not trip because something in a circuit through appliances probably was the fuse - it vaporized.
> 
> Previously your post implied a Tivo was in the connection. Change Tivo to any other appliance. You still have the same problem. A problem that can only be answered with speculation because we do not have numbers for the voltage between that USB connector and port. And because you did not list every wire to every appliance - including a cable TV wire, etc. The entire circuit was not defined. We only have a spark on a USB cable - which must never exist due to galvanic isolation and other redundant protection.
> 
> ...


It's hard for me to understand your post being the I know nothing about electricity. It does however seem that you are implying the device connected to the USB cable is the culprit, which I dont think it is. I mentioned I have no problems when connected it to my main PC (which is on a different surge protector, but same outlet, different socket). I thought I expleined everything in full detail in post #4.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

I just plugged the HTPC and external hard drive case to a different outlet. No problems. Has to be the outlet (or surge protector), but probably the outlet


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## CouchPotato_S3 (Jul 20, 2008)

Regardless of what caused this short, your main concern is getting the HDMI back on your TiVo!

Man, this thread got SO DERAILED!

Buy a used one on eBay (same model) and transfer your LPS to it. Done deal.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

westom said:


> Doubtful is that a common neutral exists. One 20 amp circuit provides so much power that all those appliances would not even consume half. No reason for a "split wire receptacle" wiring to exist.


Murphy's Law demands that it exist! 

Re-reading the OP's 4th post, I think I can summarize it down to a few points:

1) There's a single receptacle with two outlets (sounds like a standard duplex receptacle).

2) Devices work fine when USB cable is plugged between devices on the same outlet.

3) Electrical "goes nuts" when USB cable plugged between devices on different outlets within the same receptacle.

From another of the OP's posts, we see that goes nuts means: "When I tried plugging it in, all the power in the room went dim, I heard a noise, got a spark, and then the TV screen was blank due to the HDMI port being damaged."

It sounds to me like current flowed through the ground connector of the HDMI (or some other low voltage) cable. While the conductors inside the HDMI cable and the circuits connected to them likely can't handle more than a few hundred milliamps of current, the shield of the cable (which is likely grounded to the chassis) can probably take several amps. The most likely cause of this would be one outlet with reverse polarity than the other. One would have to try really hard to do this on a single duplex receptacle. If it was a split-wire receptacle, then it could be done by wiring both outlets reverse.

To the OP: Didn't you say at one point an electrician was going to look at this? I'm sure we'd all be interested to know the outcome. If not that, then I'd still strongly suggest getting one of those $7 outlet testers from the local hardware store. If an HDMI cable could become the weak link for that current, then the same thing could happen to your body some day.

I agree with whomever said a UPS wouldn't help, although many UPS's do have a "reverse polarity" warning light that might indicate the polarity problem if it existed. Still, a $7 outlet tester is cheaper.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> I just plugged the HTPC and external hard drive case to a different outlet. No problems. Has to be the outlet (or surge protector), but probably the outlet


 Or do what was posted to have an answer without speculation. "To have a better answer, provide voltage numbers on that USB cable when the cable is not yet connected. For example, a measurement of 60 VAC would indicate a failure inside at least one of those appliances. Then disconnect each, one at a time from the power strips, until the 60 volts disappears. Yes, there is no replacement for numbers if you want to locate what is probably more than one failure."

"Even if grounds failed, other failures had to exist to get that spark."

Even reserved polarity must cause no spark. Even a miswired 'common neutral' cannot create that spark - but could create a house fire which is completely irrelevant to this discussion. To have that spark means multiple failures. If a strip ground is defective, that would be only one of multiple failures to have a spark.

Different outlet as in different wall receptacle? Or different outlet on which power strip?

Your replies are as useful as facts that only you can provide. Every sentence that requests information must be answered even if the request makes no sense. The fact that you are confused about a question is a significant fact. Help is impossible if hard facts are not provided. If you do not yet understand how to get that hard fact or understand the question: Even that is called progress.

Your "I disconnected this and that happened" says little useful without answers to below (and reposted) questions.

Facts necessary to provide a useful answer: "you did not list every wire to every appliance - including a cable TV wire, etc. The entire circuit was not defined."
"Critically important will be a voltage reading where the spark occurred using a multimeters AC and DC settings. "
"What is the appliance on either side of that cable" that sparks?
"Dimming lights say you had massive current passing through a USB cable (which is difficult to believe)." Was that all lights in the room or lights on electronics? Current numbers necessary to dim all lights in a room. Between 25 and 100 amps. Then it was a massive spark that scared you ****less. Was it a tiny spark or massive. Hard facts not yet posted. With numbers or something equivalent - how big was that spark. How many millimeters is vaporized metal?

Useful answers come from questions you think are irrelevant. Meanwhile, what did the electrician do and report? Remember, to have that spark means multiple safety failures must exist.


> It does however seem that you are implying the device connected to the USB cable is the culprit,


 No. I am saying multiple failures must exist. And that I am again posting little that is useful because you are starving your help of all useful facts.

Even answering a sentence by saying, "I do not understand this sentence" is an important fact. Not saying which sentence confused you is 'starving your help'.


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

CouchPotato_S3 said:


> Regardless of what caused this short, your main concern is getting the HDMI back on your TiVo!
> 
> Man, this thread got SO DERAILED!
> 
> Buy a used one on eBay (same model) and transfer your LPS to it. Done deal.


Tivo won't allow that to happen.


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## thomb (Jan 22, 2008)

I vote for component connection. No difference in picture quality - some will say its better others will argue it's worse, but in reality it's negligible either way. Furthermore it's cheap and if you have a bad HDMI connection, it's the only way without repairing it. Problem solved.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

CouchPotato_S3 said:


> Regardless of what caused this short, your main concern is getting the HDMI back on your TiVo!
> 
> Man, this thread got SO DERAILED!
> 
> Buy a used one on eBay (same model) and transfer your LPS to it. Done deal.


actually, my main concern is what caused it! thanks, i'll give ebay a try


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

smbaker said:


> Murphy's Law demands that it exist!
> 
> Re-reading the OP's 4th post, I think I can summarize it down to a few points:
> 
> ...


the electrician was supposed to come on tuesday but never showed up because he was stuck at another job...he will be here tomm.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

westom said:


> Facts necessary to provide a useful answer: "you did not list every wire to every appliance - including a cable TV wire, etc. The entire circuit was not defined."
> "Critically important will be a voltage reading where the spark occurred using a multimeter's AC and DC settings. "
> "What is the appliance on either side of that cable" that sparks?
> "Dimming lights say you had massive current passing through a USB cable (which is difficult to believe)." Was that all lights in the room or lights on electronics? Current numbers necessary to dim all lights in a room. Between 25 and 100 amps. Then it was a massive spark that scared you ****less. Was it a tiny spark or massive. Hard facts not yet posted. With numbers or something equivalent - how big was that spark. How many millimeters is vaporized metal?


are you asking me to describe every connection and every wire/cable?
I explained what appliance the spark came from already. It was the home theater mini pc...it occurred when i connected the usb cable from a 4 bay hard drive enclosure.
all the power in the room dimmed, not just electronics. 
I stated in a previous post that I plugged the home theater pc into a different outlet on the opposite side of the room (and left everything else the way it is) connected the hard drive enclosure and had no problems.
Spark was pretty big, like a bluish whitish flash of light.


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## comgenius1 (Feb 16, 2004)

I have a theory. you say it works fine when plugged into your regular PC, but all heck broke lose when you plugged into your media pc. I wonder if your media PC is tied into the cable TV network via a tuner card. If so, that cable line should have its own ground, and therefore, providing a second ground to that computer when its hooked up. Im also betting that with that much stuff plugged into one outlet (essentially), you have quite the rats nest of cables in that area. If so, your low voltage cables (usb, ethernet, etc), can and will pick up stray voltage off of the high voltage (power connections) wires running right next too them. In other words, i'm wondering if your USB cable is picking up stray voltage, and then the second ground via the cable line on the media pc is giving that voltage a place to go. 

I found that out the jumpy way. I had an extension cord powering a computer running right next to a cable tv line. the cable tv line picked up stray voltage, and would literally zap you if you touched the end of it, and would spark when i went to plug it into the tv. 

Just something to consider. You might want to clean up your cables and keep your high voltage and your low voltage lines separated as best as you can.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

comgenius1 said:


> I have a theory. you say it works fine when plugged into your regular PC, but all heck broke lose when you plugged into your media pc. I wonder if your media PC is tied into the cable TV network via a tuner card. If so, that cable line should have its own ground, and therefore, providing a second ground to that computer when its hooked up. Im also betting that with that much stuff plugged into one outlet (essentially), you have quite the rats nest of cables in that area. If so, your low voltage cables (usb, ethernet, etc), can and will pick up stray voltage off of the high voltage (power connections) wires running right next too them. In other words, i'm wondering if your USB cable is picking up stray voltage, and then the second ground via the cable line on the media pc is giving that voltage a place to go.
> 
> I found that out the jumpy way. I had an extension cord powering a computer running right next to a cable tv line. the cable tv line picked up stray voltage, and would literally zap you if you touched the end of it, and would spark when i went to plug it into the tv.
> 
> Just something to consider. You might want to clean up your cables and keep your high voltage and your low voltage lines separated as best as you can.


There is no TV tuner in the HTPC. Also, the usb cable going from the hard drive enclosure to the htpc was nowhere near all the other cables bc the the hard drive enclosure was new so i was just testing it out. I'm pretty sure the outlet is no good. Even though i dont know much about electricity, the outlet isnt even screwed into a wall, it's just hanging there by the wires. I cant even touch the thing bc it'll spark and the fuse will blow.

BTW, my cable line IS in the mix of all the other wires and I do get a very minor shock when i touch the end of it. Itll even get some little sparks if it touched metal.

I just bought a new surge protector that has an input/output for a cable line. I'm waiting for the electrician to come to fix the outlet before I connect it all up. Is it even worth it to actually use the inputs and outputs on the surge protector though? I have the main cable line going into a splitter, and from that splitter I have one cable going to my Tivo, one cable going to a Fios box in a separate room, and one to my router. If I do use the surge protector for the cable line do I just connect the main cable to the input and connect another cable from the output to the splitter?


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> are you asking me to describe every connection and every wire/cable?


Obviously, it is impossible for anyone to post anything but wild speculation if you do not describe every connection from and to every box. Even which boxes connect to the cable TV wire which can be part of the 'spark' circuit. Does anything connect to a phone line? Every USB, HDMI, and ethernet connection. It is electricity. Nobody can say anything but wild speculation without knowing every existing electrical path.

Actual voltage numbers (both AC and DC) between two sparking connections is critically important information. I asked for it how many times? Says how critically important that number is? As is the size of the spark. According to other observations (dimming room lights), the spark should have been so massive as to scare the **** out of you and take many minutes before go near anything. No exaggeration. See those numbers? 25 to 100 amps. Those numbers posted previously say how scared **** you should have been. A spark to cause room lights to dim means hot metal fragments flying, and a very measurable hole in some metal.

If not, then another critically important fact adds more suspects to the list - which might or might not be something the electrician could find and fix.

For all lights in the room to dim, the short must have conducted 25 to 100 amps. See that number? Grasp it like a victim on the Titanic. See all that equipment. Together it consumes high single digit amps. Does that provide perspective of how massive that spark must be to dim room lights? If the spark is not so massive as to leave you with a pounding heart, well look, it was another critically important fact necessary to have viable suspects. Not enough make any conclusions or fix anything. But a critical fact necessary to provide any assistance.

As I said, moving the connection only says we have another mystery. A symptom that is incomplete without answers to those above questions. Yes, every wire that connects to every appliance in both power strips was critically important.

Why do we fix things? First and foremost to learn. You are learning how much facts are necessary to get useful (without speculation) electrical answers. We must know everything including the incoming and outgoing path of that spark. Dimming lights - another critical fact that implies numbers but by itself says nothing.

When you don't know why information is necessary, then that information request is probably the most important fact you can provide.

So, something in the original wall receptacle (not power strip receptacle) creates a change. So now we have someplace to find one of multiple reasons necessary to have that spark.

For example, the original receptacle could be properly wired and the second receptacle wired defectively. Therefore no sparks when connected to the second receptacle. Your test only suggests one receptacle is wired differently from the other. Without other facts, a defective second wall receptacle is one (of many) viable conclusion.

See that cable going to a FIOS box in the other room? Now all that equipment in the other room are reasons for that spark. Disconnect the cable to that other room FIOS. Does anything change? If not, then good. And do not reconnect that other system during this analysis. An example of how to break a problem down into relevant parts. Later, you will reconnect that other FIOS box to learn if it too was contributing to failure. But for now, get rid of a potentially complicating variable.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> the outlet isnt even screwed into a wall, it's just hanging there by the wires. I cant even touch the thing bc it'll spark and the fuse will blow. ...
> 
> I just bought a new surge protector that has an input/output for a cable line. I'm waiting for the electrician to come to fix the outlet before I connect it all up.


 Fuse? What fuse? I thought no fuses were blowing in any equipment?

So the wall receptacle hanging out of the wall box sparks only when it moves? Why was that not mentioned before? No receptacle should spark even when out of its box. Does every black, white, and bare copper wires wrap fully around a screw and held firmly in place by that screw? If any wire is only pushed into a hole, that is a serious reason for failure.

Meanwhile, what is this fuse? In the breaker box? If you have fuses, then you should have no three wire wall receptacles. Again, information you probably not thought important and that would have been absolutely critical.

The old surge protector and a new one are doing the exact same thing - nothing. Any protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground can even make electronic damage easier. Or view the numeric specs on that new protector. List each number that claims protection from each type of surge. And good luck. It protects only from a surge that typically does no damage. The word scam is quite appropriate.

When the electrician comes, have him inspect your earth grounds. Every wire inside every incoming cable must connect short (ie 'less than10 feet') to that earth ground. If any wire does not, then surge protection does not exist. That (not a magic box) is what always - did I say always - always does the protection. Since the electrician is coming, have him bring before he comes) a 'whole house' protector to install in your breaker box. That - not some scam power strip - will be part of the only effective surge protection 'system'.

These things are the only protection used in any facility that cannot have damage. You can view a Cuter-Hammer version in Lowes or Home Depot for less than $50. Because the protectors that are actually effective cost so much less money and always make the shortest connection to what does all protection - earth ground. That power strip will do more when back on the store shelf. Best power strip is one that is not a surge protector and that has the always required 15 amp circuit breaker.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

comgenius1 said:


> I had an extension cord powering a computer running right next to a cable tv line. the cable tv line picked up stray voltage, and would literally zap you if you touched the end of it, and would spark when i went to plug it into the tv.


 If your AC electric and cable TV wire were properly installed, then that spark could not happen. That spark implies at least one wire entered the building in violation of safety codes. And therefore the house also had zero surge protection (even with 200 power strip protectors).

AC electric and cable must both connect to a common earth ground before entering the building. If it was, then no voltage could have existed between the cable and computer. Your symptoms back then suggested a serious human safety violation or some lesser problem.

No zapping should exist anywhere inside a house. That is why informed homeowners inspect their grounds. And an example of why reason for a problem is first identified before fixing it. Most such symptoms cause no human threat. And not a reason to ignore it.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

westom said:


> Fuse? What fuse? I thought no fuses were blowing in any equipment?
> 
> So the wall receptacle hanging out of the wall box sparks only when it moves? Why was that not mentioned before? No receptacle should spark even when out of its box. Does every black, white, and bare copper wires wrap fully around a screw and held firmly in place by that screw? If any wire is only pushed into a hole, that is a serious reason for failure.
> 
> ...


Thefuse blew in the breaker box, not in my equipment. The surge protectors are pretty close to the components...but on the opposite side of the wall. I'm in a basement, the boiler room is behind my living room. I have all wires/cables hidden in the boiler room (this is where the faulty outlet is BTW). I will tell the elec. to bring a whole house protector. Can you please tell me things I can ask him to check for for when he comes tomorrow?


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

westom said:


> Obviously, it is impossible for anyone to post anything but wild speculation if you do not describe every connection from and to every box. Even which boxes connect to the cable TV wire which can be part of the 'spark' circuit. Does anything connect to a phone line? Every USB, HDMI, and ethernet connection. It is electricity. Nobody can say anything but wild speculation without knowing every existing electrical path.
> 
> Actual voltage numbers (both AC and DC) between two sparking connections is critically important information. I asked for it how many times? Says how critically important that number is? As is the size of the spark. According to other observations (dimming room lights), the spark should have been so massive as to scare the **** out of you and take many minutes before go near anything. No exaggeration. See those numbers? 25 to 100 amps. Those numbers posted previously say how scared **** you should have been. A spark to cause room lights to dim means hot metal fragments flying, and a very measurable hole in some metal.
> 
> ...


I cant answer your question about voltage numbers. I never bought any equipment as I figured I'd just wait for the electrician. I will try and give you the best description I can about EVERY cable/wire/etc in my setup...

One outlet (located in boiler room). 2 surge protectors. 
List of all equipment and connections plugged into surge protector 1 (located in living room) (electrical cable from this surge protector runs from the living room into the boiler room which is about 5-6 feet away on the other side of the wall)...
-main computer
-monitor (DVI)
-desktop speakers 
-printer (USB)
-cell phone charger (USB)
-hard drive dock (USB)
-4 bay hard drive enclosure (with 3 hard drives installed) (USB)

List of all equipment/connections plugged into surge protector 2 (located in boiler room).
-Plasma TV
-Tivo (optical to receiver, DID have HDMI to TV but since that is no longer working now using components to TV, RCA audio cables to TV)
-Receiver (5 speakers connected to living room/2 speakers connected to bedroom, one subwoofer output-single coaxial cable).
-Blu Ray Player (HDMI to receiver)
-Subwoofer
-Router (net cable to Tivo and both computers)
-Home theater computer (Zotac Zbox) (HDMI to receiver). This was sent back to newegg yesterday as the USB ports seemed to have been affected by this as well. They arent powering USB flash drives anymore and only work with a keyboard/mouse/IR receiver half of the time. Sucks, this thing is a week old and won't be able to test it again until they send me a new one. Hopefully the electrician will find and fix the problem because I wouldnt want to F up another $500 machine.

FIOS cable comes from outside to a splitter. Splitter is in boiler room with the rest of the cables from the components and surge protector 2. Cables from splitter go to Tivo, router, FIOS box in bedroom.

I'll go over the problem again as this post has gotten quite long. I connected the 4 bay hard drive enclosure (which is on surge protector 1) to the htpc (on surge protector 2) via USB. Huge blue spark, minor shock, loud humming noise (from the fuse panel i believe), all lights dimmed out. When I connected the enclosure to my main computer everything was OK. I tried plugging the HTPC into a different outlet across the room and then connected the hard drive enclosure to it again and it was OK again. 
I now have everything plugged into a totally different outlet until the electrician comes tomorrow to fix it.

Like to thank everyone again for their input.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

shwru980r said:


> Tivo won't allow that to happen.


If I was to buy a used Tivo they would NOT let me tranfser the lifetime service to it???


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> Thefuse blew in the breaker box, not in my equipment. ... I will tell the elec. to bring a whole house protector. Can you please tell me things I can ask him to check for for when he comes tomorrow?


 A breaker box of fuses (not circuit breakers) implies a house wired with only two wire electric cable; not three. Some will simply replace the two wire receptacle with a three prong. Leaving the poor victim (ie you) unaware that safety ground is missing. That will be one of the first things the electrician checks - missing safety ground connected from each receptacle back to the fuse box. Not just from the offending receptacle. Also from the other receptacle that does not create a spark.

Well, appliances intended only for three prong receptacles could then create 60 volts on signal lines. 60 volts could create that spark as you made a connection. But that normally would not dim the lights. So, second, you want the electrician to measure voltage between the two sparking cables (before they are connected). And (even though this makes no sense), a voltage difference between the safety grounds of the two surge protectors. There should be no voltage difference if the wall receptacle is properly constructed (not physically perverted). But from what you have posted, this strange voltage difference may exist.

The electrician will also check others things based upon what he observes. But so that future failures are averted, so that other problems can be located, and so that you learn from the experience - be sure to have him do those two tasks.

Now on to surge protection. The fuse box must be earthed to an electrode that meets and exceeds post 1990 code. Meeting code for human safety means the fuse box now has a dedicated earth ground - is not dependent on a water pipe ground. For surge protection (many electricians don't know this because it is not required by code), that connection to earth must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp wire bends, and separated from other non-grounding wires. If the bare copper ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to earth ground, then it is too long, has sharp bends, and is bundled with those other wires above the breaker box. Best earth ground goes through the foundation and down to the earth ground to be shorter, no sharp bends, etc.

When a 'whole house' protector is installed, then all three incoming AC wires make a short connection to earth. One (the neutral wire) directly to earth. The other two (hot) wires connected via the 'whole house' protector. So three and four. Have him inspect the earth ground (and show you so that you learn about this important feature). And fourth, have him install a 'whole house' protector.

A surge entering on all three AC wires is connected to earth. Then that energy is not inside seeking earth via your TV, computers, etc. Surge protection is always about connecting that energy to earth. Whereas the electrician will understand human safety problems, not all understand why (for example) that ground wire must be so short. Every foot shorter means the surge protector earths more energy.

I do not have time to go through the various interconnections. I will in a day or so. Mostly because I am very troubled by a damning symptom. Nothing you did should have dimmed room lights. To do that, the spark would have to be so massive as to scare you ****less. That symptom alone is why I am compelled to sit down ASAP to study the connections. Meanwhile, be sure to indicate that symptom to the electrician. That symptom is one he must locate and then correct. That symptom may be minor. Or it (less likely but more serious) may be reporting a serious human safety problem.

So five, discover and correct the reason for those dimming lights (and sparking receptacle if its wires are not firmly attached to screws on the side of each receptacle).

My bet is that failures have created a 60 VAC difference that created the spark. If that is 120 VAC, then a serious defect exists, in some connections, can also be a human safety problem. Which is why you want those voltage numbers before changing or fixing anything else.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

westom said:


> A breaker box of fuses (not circuit breakers) implies a house wired with only two wire electric cable; not three. Some will simply replace the two wire receptacle with a three prong. Leaving the poor victim (ie you) unaware that safety ground is missing. That will be one of the first things the electrician checks - missing safety ground connected from each receptacle back to the fuse box. Not just from the offending receptacle. Also from the other receptacle that does not create a spark.
> 
> Well, appliances intended only for three prong receptacles could then create 60 volts on signal lines. 60 volts could create that spark as you made a connection. But that normally would not dim the lights. So, second, you want the electrician to measure voltage between the two sparking cables (before they are connected). And (even though this makes no sense), a voltage difference between the safety grounds of the two surge protectors. There should be no voltage difference if the wall receptacle is properly constructed (not physically perverted). But from what you have posted, this strange voltage difference may exist.
> 
> ...


They are here now and said the polarity was reversed. Thanks everyone for your help.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

parzec said:


> It does sound like a polarity problem -- and your neutral is hot on one of your branches. Have you tested your connections with a voltmeter (testing hot->ground and neutral->ground)?


And the winner is:
parzec
:up::up::up:

I'm glad this one is over. Time for some Advil.

Robb


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## steve614 (May 1, 2006)

Robbdoe1 said:


> I'm glad this one is over. Time for some Advil.


Now I want to know how the polarity got reversed...


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

Robbdoe1 said:


> And the winner is:
> parzec
> :up::up::up:
> 
> ...


not over yet. when newegg sends me the replacement for the htpc (zotac) and i'm able to connect the hard drive enclosure to it with no problem then its over!


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

OK so i just got around to inspecting the work and is it normal for this copper wire to be sticking out like this??


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

JZ1276 said:


> OK so i just got around to inspecting the work and is it normal for this copper wire to be sticking out like this??


No. Thats your ground wire and if it should come in contact with a live conductor you will have a direct short to ground. *All wiring needs to be terminated inside the box*. Call them back and have them fix it.

Get any 1 of these from anywhere you want and test all of your receptacles before they come back:

http://www.google.com/search?q=elec...&resnum=1&ved=0CDkQrQQwAA&fp=92b55bcb8ad34b32

Any receptacle that fails have fixed. You can also pay them to test all the receptacles and repair any problems. You may also want to consider getting another electrical company just based on the fact they left the ground like that.

Robb

It aint over till is over. At least the Advil worked.


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

This is not necessarily a bad ground -- there is a type of clip that clamps the ground wire to the side of a metallic outlet box. Here is a link to a picture.

http://www.sweethaven02.com/BldgConst/Electrical01/en5144b0036.gif

another picture showing a bit of exposed ground wire sticking out:

http://media.rd.com/rd/images/rdc/family-handyman/2002/03/Install-a-Dimmer-07-ss.jpg

I'm not an electrician, so I can't speak to the exact electrical code covering this, but I wouldn't jump to the immediate conclusion that is has been improperly wired.

It is, however, at the very least quite sloppy. The problem with workers (even high-paid contractors) is that you have to babysit them to an extent if you want the job done right. It would have been better to catch him while he was finishing up with a quick "why is that wire sticking out there?".

If I were you, I would still invest in one of those $7 outlet testers, for two reasons: 1) to check this guy's work (trust but verify!), and 2) to check the other outlets in your home before you or your family becomes the unwitting ground path of a mis-wired kitchen or bathroom outlet.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

smbaker said:


> This is not necessarily a bad ground -- there is a type of clip that clamps the ground wire to the side of a metallic outlet box. Here is a link to a picture.
> 
> http://www.sweethaven02.com/BldgConst/Electrical01/en5144b0036.gif
> 
> ...


Take a peek at the OP's picture again. Notice the loop in the ground wire? That is where this wire used to go around the ground screw inside the box. I'm not sure if they replaced the box or not but like I said, all terminations need to happen inside the box. If its grounded as your box suggests then at the very least the wire should have been clipped flush at the termination clip with the pigtail going into the box for ground connections. I do this all day long to feed the family and at the very least its shotty workmanship. Its ironic that he called an electrician to fix shotty workmanship and the repair was shotty.

Robb


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

Robbdoe1 said:


> Take a peek at the OP's picture again. Notice the loop in the ground wire? That is where this wire used to go around the ground screw inside the box.


I couldn't say for certain exactly what that wire was, nor whether the box had a grounding screw (many older one's didn't, hence the use of the clips). It could be a chunk of scrap for all we know from the electrician's toolbox that he used as a jumper from the receptacle to the ground clip. Why he didn't snip the excess wire is perplexing.

My point being that we shouldn't jump to conclusions about what was done. I do agree that some clarification from the electrician is necessary (and the OP should do so). I wouldn't put up with a job that I paid for being left in that condition, but then again I'd have been checking the work while he was doing it or inspected it when it was complete. If the wire is clipped and needs to be snipped, then the electrician should return and do so.

Even if the job had looked tidy when complete, I still wouldn't trust the grounding without verifying it with my own tester and/or my own eyes. A competent professional worker should not mind a homeowner checking his work -- to the OP: never be shy about looking things over, testing it yourself when done, or asking questions.


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

smbaker said:


> I couldn't say for certain exactly what that wire was, nor whether the box had a grounding screw (many older one's didn't, hence the use of the clips). It could be a chunk of scrap for all we know from the electrician's toolbox that he used as a jumper from the receptacle to the ground clip. Why he didn't snip the excess wire is perplexing.
> 
> My point being that we shouldn't jump to conclusions about what was done. I do agree that some clarification from the electrician is necessary (and the OP should do so). I wouldn't put up with a job that I paid for being left in that condition, but then again I'd have been checking the work while he was doing it or inspected it when it was complete. If the wire is clipped and needs to be snipped, then the electrician should return and do so.
> 
> Even if the job had looked tidy when complete, I still wouldn't trust the grounding without verifying it with my own tester and/or my own eyes. A competent professional worker should not mind a homeowner checking his work -- to the OP: never be shy about looking things over, testing it yourself when done, or asking questions.


Agreed.

Some people figure they are paying for a pro so They trust them completely. I don't. I stand behind them and ask questions. That is how I learn or pick up tips or additional knowledge.

Why a pro would leave any wire sticking out like that is beyond me. maybe it was Friday and happy hour??

Robb


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

Heres some more pics...the copper wire is definitely coming from the wires that run to the box (which he did replace btw).





Newegg is going to be sending me another htpc (zotac zbox)...i should have it by wed. I want to make sure it is safe before I fry the USB ports again. Will these outlet testers that a few people brought up tell me if the new outlet is good to go?


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## Robbdoe1 (Dec 29, 2008)

JZ1276 said:


> Heres some more pics...the copper wire is definitely coming from the wires that run to the box (which he did replace btw).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm finished speculating. Have a pro come out and check it out and repair it if necessary.

Robb


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## smbaker (May 24, 2003)

JZ1276 said:


> Newegg is going to be sending me another htpc (zotac zbox)...i should have it by wed. I want to make sure it is safe before I fry the USB ports again. Will these outlet testers that a few people brought up tell me if the new outlet is good to go?


The testers will usually tell you if the most common problems exist (reverse polarity, open ground, etc). They can't identify every possible problem, and they can't certify an outlet as "safe".

The pictures you've shown are somewhat disconcerting. I'm no expert on the electrical code, nor am I familiar with all possible wiring technologies in older homes, so I'm not to say whether what I'm looking at is definitely a violation, but there are numerous issues that would concern me including: wires dangling outside the box, jacket stripped outside the box, etc. It just doesn't look right.

The best suggestion I can give is to 1) contact the original electrician and have him explain his work (talk to his boss and explain your concerns if necessary) and even better, do what Robb said: 2) contact a different licensed electrician and have him inspect and likely repair the job.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> They are here now and said the polarity was reversed.


 Polarity must be reversed everywhere and never cause a problem. By restoring polarity, that other defect is no longer obvious. For example a shorted filter capacitor that was connected to the hot wire is now connected to neutral. The defect still exists. Is now masked by another eliminated problem.

As said previously, multiple failures had to exist to have that spark. Reversed polarity is only one of many failures. Those other failures are why a reversed polarity can cause problems.

If I see pictures correctly, a black 'strain relief' is not clamped properly clamped. Only thing holding a cable to the box are the green, white, and black wires. That is unsafe.

A black wire jacket does multiple wire protection. One function is strain relief. The black jacket must carry all mechanical strain. To do that, cable must be clamped onto the black jacket; not on three wires whose insulation is not firm enough to be safely clamped.


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## westom (Jan 16, 2010)

JZ1276 said:


> They are here now and said the polarity was reversed.


 Once scenario. Assume the HTPC is two wire AC power. A filter required inside all electronics has shorted inside the HTPC. But only the neutral wire side. As long as a power receptacle has no reversal, then HTPC failure is not detected.

Once connected to a reversed AC plug, then 120 volts is connected to the HDMI shield. So 120 VAC is going through HTPC, through TV's HDMI port, then somehow back to the fuse box. Of concern is a path from TV, via some other electronics, back to the fuse box. That would be overstress - a failure that appears maybe month later. For example, something connected to the HTPC USB port during any spark.

Above is simply one suggestion. Voltage between the TV to HTPC cable would have said so much more. This scenario also does not explain the path through USB ports.

Or maybe a filter in the TV is defective. Therefore 120 VAC found a path via the HTPC to its AC cable and through something connected to its USB ports.

But this is apparent. Failure is somehow associated with a failure on some electronics AC neutral wire. Serious and unacceptable current was passing through both the TV and HTPC. Whatever was permitting that current to flow still exists. Has not been identified and corrected.

All appliances must work perfectly normal and safe with reversed polarity. Reversed polarity also exposed another defect that has not yet been corrected. Multiple defects had to exist to have your damage.


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## JZ1276 (Aug 21, 2008)

Want to thank everyone again for all of the help.
UPDATE -
I received the replacement Zotac Zbox today (HTPC from which the spark came from originally). Was very nervous when attempting to connect the hard drive enclosure to it so I first unplugged everything, removed all the hard drives from it and plugged it in to the USB port. No spark. I then plugged each component in one by one just in case one of them was defective (like some of you had stated was a possibility). Again, everything ok. I then installed the hard drives back into the enclosure, turned everything on, and all is ok. 
Thanks again!


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