# Game of Thrones - Season Three and Book 3 Discussion (with Spoilers from Bk. 3)



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

*Warning - This thread may contain spoilers from the first three books and all episodes that have aired. If you have not read all of "Storm of Swords" then please be aware that discussions may speculate on how future events in the book may be used in the series.*

Didn't take too many posts in the thread about the S03E01 episode to decide it might be a good idea to have a discussion thread for those who have read the books up to the point of the current season. We had a similar thread last season and it was a good place to go and vent without spoiling for those unfamiliar with the books when the events varied from the book. I'm really excited about this season since book three was my favorite book of the series and so much happens that will likely appear this season.

OK, my main reason for opening this thread was to prevent the episode threads from veering from talk of the show to complaints about spoilers from the books. Part of the fun in the series is trying to guess where they are headed based on the books and how major events are set up. Thus the change in the opening paragraph to warn about spoilers. The series is moving around so much in the book chronology now that it would be next to impossible to have only read the books up to the current episode. That became pretty much impossible last season with all of the Brienne and Jamie scenes that occur in Book 3 rather than Book 2.

So, rather than start yet another GOT S3 thread, I propose we use this one as revised.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Rickvz said:


> That would lose a bit of the impact on TV since we would recognize him.


Except for the ones who would say "Who was that guy? Were we supposed to know him? He looked familiar..." 

Yeah, as I said in the other thread, the good news is that this eliminates a lot of the chronological difficulties of the book, since now he's had enough time to get to Dany without the other stuff in between. The bad news is he's a better person if he spends a long time evaluating Dany before signing on with her, rather than just tracking down the daughter of the psychopath who was so evil his own bodyguard had to put him down.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I really hope they don't dwell on the "Dany and her slaves" storyline. I think this part going into book 4 are where it really drags. I think Martin was just making up people as he went along at one point.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

We've reached the part where the books, IMO, became an endless middle (from which they have not yet begun to emerge, although there were hints in the last book that the next one will actually start moving towards the endgame). I think the forced streamlining of the TV show will really help keep the strengths of the middle books while culling the weaknesses.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

It will be a little different this season watching the TV show now that I finally got through book 3. Going in to the series, I had never read (or even heard) of the books. I finally sat down after S2 and got through Books 1 & 2. I started book 3 a few months ago, but got bored in the first part. I went back about a month ago and picked up. By the time I got to the 2nd half of the book, boy did things pick up. (There was a couple of times I was saying "WTF!" to myself.)

Going in to Season 3, I now have a better understanding of the story, but I am unsure if I like knowing what the major plot points are going to be this season. I also wonder where the season is going to end. Based the book there is a few places that could end the season on one helluva cliff-hanger.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

The title of episode 9 is pretty indicative of what will happen in that episode.



Spoiler



The Rains of Castamere


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Except for the ones who would say "Who was that guy? Were we supposed to know him? He looked familiar..."
> 
> Yeah, as I said in the other thread, the good news is that this eliminates a lot of the chronological difficulties of the book, since now he's had enough time to get to Dany without the other stuff in between. The bad news is he's a better person if he spends a long time evaluating Dany before signing on with her, rather than just tracking down the daughter of the psychopath who was so evil his own bodyguard had to put him down.


What chronological difficulties? He went from King's Landing to Pentos to Qarth right after Ned Stark was killed.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cherry ghost said:


> What chronological difficulties? He went from King's Landing to Pentos to Qarth right after Ned Stark was killed.


Which is a very long journey, then he arrived there, had a legendary career as a fighter, and finally met Dany early in Volume 2. If the events of Westeros and Dany are concurrent, there barely would have been time for him to get there.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Which is a very long journey, then he arrived there, had a legendary career as a fighter, and finally met Dany early in Volume 2. If the events of Westeros and Dany are concurrent, there barely would have been time for him to get there.


He met Dany at the end of Volume 2. I think you're confusing his legendary career as a fighter with Strong Belwas.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> We've reached the part where the books, IMO, became an endless middle (from which they have not yet begun to emerge, although there were hints in the last book that the next one will actually start moving towards the endgame). I think the forced streamlining of the TV show will really help keep the strengths of the middle books while culling the weaknesses.


Oh, please, I really really hope so.



TriBruin said:


> I started book 3 a few months ago, but got bored in the first part. I went back about a month ago and picked up. By the time I got to the 2nd half of the book, boy did things pick up. (There was a couple of times I was saying "WTF!" to myself.)


*snicker*



billypritchard said:


> The title of episode 9 is pretty indicative of what will happen in that episode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I SO cannot wait for that!


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

billypritchard said:


> The title of episode 9 is pretty indicative of what will happen in that episode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was that


Spoiler



the Red Wedding?


I read the books all in one go last summer but now CRS. OTOH I completely agree with DavidTigerFan and hope we don't get bogged down in the Dany slaves/suitors crap. It was lousy reading and would make lousier TV.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Mr. Soze said:


> OTOH I completely agree with DavidTigerFan and hope we don't get bogged down in the Dany slaves/suitors crap. It was lousy reading and would make lousier TV.


Dany's story bogged down terribly for way to long.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

There's a question in the other thread about the scene at harrenhal with Rob, Cat, and Roose Bolton (I think). This has to be different from the books, since Bolton held Harrenhal when Arya left rather than Lanister. So what happened there and who were all the dead northmen plus men from the Tully house? I just reread book 3 in the last month, so maybe I'm getting confused between the book and show. 

There are 2 weddings in book3--I assume the first one will be this year and the other not until next year? 

Interesting that Roz advises Sansa not to go with Littlefinger.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> There are 2 weddings in book3--I assume the first one will be this year and the other not until next year?


I was assuming that as well.

The Harrenhal scene confused me as well. At first I wasn't sure if it was Winterfell or Harranhal, and then I wasn't sure how everyone wound up dead. I assumed I was just forgetting things, though (even though I have read the books). There is way too much for me to keep track of in this series.


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

It had to be harrenthal if for the simple fact that they would have been freaking out much more if it was winterfell.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

vertigo235 said:


> It had to be harrenthal if for the simple fact that they would have been freaking out much more if it was winterfell.


And would have desperately been looking for the two younger boys.


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

vertigo235 said:


> It had to be harrenthal if for the simple fact that they would have been freaking out much more if it was winterfell.


And they were Tully men. Even though they are obviously allied with the Starks, they wouldn't be up at Winterfell.


----------



## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

I think the scene at Harrenhal was to cover up some of the missing chapters where Roose Bolton begins to defy Robb.


----------



## Dawghows (May 17, 2001)

We also saw Winterfell burned and essentially abandoned last season. Of course people could have returned to it, but it seems unlikely to be the case at this point in the story.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Spoiler






stellie93 said:


> There are 2 weddings in book3--I assume the first one will be this year and the other not until next year?


The 2 weddings combined I think would be overwhelming to viewers, even though I believe after seeing the first wedding, the other wedding would be a "joyous" event..


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Robojerk - Please add spoiler tags to your entire post.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

jehma said:


> Robojerk - Please add spoiler tags to your entire post.


I didn't reveal anything more than the person I quoted (who didn't have their post inside spoiler tags). Why did I have to hide my post?

[rant]I understand the rules, but it kind of makes it a PITA and no fun to discuss the show assuming everything needs to be spoiler'ized.

Why cant the thread be for people who have read book 3 to completion and comparing it to the current season. I totally understand hiding things that happen in the later books.[/rant]


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, I don't get why we make a thread for those who have read book 3, and then we can't discuss anything that happens later in book 3. I thought the fact that there are 2 weddings was vague enough to get by, but the rules seem dumb to me. You can't really read the book a chapter at a time as the show goes, because the show is all over the place. So have we all read it or not?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I will not be spoilerizing anything that occurred in book 3. The thread clearly states the purpose. Jehma, perhaps you need to find another thread if you just want to discuss the show.


----------



## JoBeth66 (Feb 15, 2002)

I agree with DTF. If this thread is for those of us that have read the book AND seen the show, then we shouldn't have to limit our discussion only to what's happened at this point in the show. That's what the episode thread is for, isn't it?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I agree with both of you, but the OP very clearly does not.


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I agree with both of you, but the OP very clearly does not.


I have no problem revising the original post. I'd rather be able to freely discuss anything in the first three books. That was the original purpose of last season's thread since many folks had read the first couple of books only and the thread in Happy Hour has spoilers from all five books. This thread would then allow book readers to speculate on where they may end this season since they expect to only cover part of book 3 this season.


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

I've clarified my original intent in post 1. I remember now how hard it became last season when they started adding book three scenes in the series. Just as last year I looked forward to the Blackwater episode, I can't wait to see where they choose to end this season concerning the two weddings. Looking now like episode 9 will be the big surprise episode again this year.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

I don't think you can change spoiler rules unilaterally, or on a per-thread basis.

The whole point of having a site-wide spoiler convention (as stupid as I think some of the subrules are), is that you don't have to think "what are the rules for this thread again?" and you can safely click or not click a thread based on the title.

As you titled this thread, all of Book 3 and earlier is fair game.

--Carlos V.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Unbeliever said:


> As you titled this thread, all of Book 3 and earlier is fair game.


:up:


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Unbeliever said:


> As you titled this thread, all of Book 3 and earlier is fair game.
> 
> --Carlos V.


I agree and have edited the original post and title to give fair warning.

Now back to discussions of the book and episode.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

jehma said:


> Dany's story bogged down terribly for way to long.


 I thought Dany's story last season in the HBO show got very bogged down. I agree that the "wandering the desert" plotline in the book was also boring.

But I have to say I was excited to see the Unsullied show up on this week's episode! I agree with others who hope they can do some editing to her plotline in the TV show, to tighten it up.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Did they introduce the "Blackfish" Tully in the premiere? I don't remember seeing that guy in the pic in the link... But IMDB says the actor was credited in the for the episode.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I agree with both of you, but the OP very clearly does not.


I agree.



DavidTigerFan said:


> I will not be spoilerizing anything that occurred in book 3. The thread clearly states the purpose. Jehma, perhaps you need to find another thread if you just want to discuss the show.


Don't tell me to find another thread when the OP clearly stated spoilers aren't wanted.

I've read the books. I don't care about being spoiler free. I do care about spoiling people for this season if they haven't read it. Even calling it the red wedding or saying it's devastating is a huge spoiler for what is probably most shocking event of the series.

I'm happy following whatever rules are set down but I don't appreciate being attacked for trying to be respectful.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

madscientist said:


> I thought Dany's story last season in the HBO show got very bogged down. I agree that the "wandering the desert" plotline in the book was also boring.
> 
> But I have to say I was excited to see the Unsullied show up on this week's episode! I agree with others who hope they can do some editing to her plotline in the TV show, to tighten it up.


Spoiler for remaining books



Spoiler



I think Dany has so much potential as a character and clearly she's going to be very important, but I pretty much hated her story up until the last scene of Dance With Dragons.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

jehma said:


> I agree.
> 
> Don't tell me to find another thread when the OP clearly stated spoilers aren't wanted.
> 
> ...


First, there was no attack.

Second, the OP has edited the first post to indicate spoilers for everything. Please re-read instead of blindly posting.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

jehma said:


> Spoiler for remaining books
> 
> I think Dany has so much potential as a character and clearly she's going to be very important, but I pretty much hated her story up until the last scene of Dance With Dragons.


That's not a spoiler.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> First, there was no attack.
> 
> Second, the OP has edited the first post to indicate spoilers for everything. Please re-read instead of blindly posting.


1. "The whining has already begun" is obnoxious. And you've continued with "what is it with you?" I responded ONCE to your comment referring to me.
2. I'm not blindly posting. I was referring to your posts BEFORE the OP changed it. My post in the other thread was very clear about this fact.
3. Stop telling me to leave threads.

ETA: I corrected this post. I'm glad the thread now includes spoilers. Can we drop this now?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

robojerk said:


> Did they introduce the "Blackfish" Tully in the premiere?


Nope


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

We need a thread without all this spoiler silliness. How ridiculous is it to spoiler book 3 stuff when the thread title says "Spoilers from book 3"?


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

heySkippy said:


> We need a thread without all this spoiler silliness. How ridiculous is it to spoiler book 3 stuff when the thread title says "Spoilers from book 3"?


I agree.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

SOPHIE TURNER: GAME OF THRONES BOOK READERS WILL BE "SUPER SHOCKED" BY SEASON THREE CHANGES

Sorry to shout - the caps aren't mine.


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

I screwed up with the original post by suggesting spoiler tags for things that hadn't happened on the series. I've corrected that so that this thread is intended for a free discussion of anything from the series or from the first three books. Thus the change in the title by a mod to clarify. 

As for the show itself, I always find it interesting how close some of the dialog is to the book although obviously edited greatly. The dialog between Mance and Jon was great but Jon's reason for following was somewhat different since in the book Mance had been present at Winterfell during Robert's visit and once Jon knew that then he used the excuse of how he had been treated as a bastard.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Rickvz said:


> I screwed up with the original post by suggesting spoiler tags for things that hadn't happened on the series. I've corrected that so that this thread is intended for a free discussion of anything from the series or from the first three books. Thus the change in the title by a mod to clarify.
> 
> As for the show itself, I always find it interesting how close some of the dialog is to the book although obviously edited greatly. The dialog between Mance and Jon was great but Jon's reason for following was somewhat different since in the book Mance had been present at Winterfell during Robert's visit and once Jon knew that then he used the excuse of how he had been treated as a bastard.


After reading the Sophie Turner article I linked to I'm concerned about the show diverging from the books. OTOH, there are definitely things that annoyed me about the books, so if they make the show tighter and less confusing I can't really complain.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

jehma said:


> SOPHIE TURNER: GAME OF THRONES BOOK READERS WILL BE "SUPER SHOCKED" BY SEASON THREE CHANGES
> 
> Sorry to shout - the caps aren't mine.


I think a lot of changes could be welcomed if done right.

Saving the second wedding from book 3 to Season 4, means Tyrion won't spend the entirety of next season doing what he did in book 4.


Spoiler



locked in a cell, waiting trial. I don't think the viewers would appreciate one of their favorite characters side lined from all the action.


Danny's story could definitely use some editing.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

robojerk said:


> Danny's story could definitely use some editing.


I can't agree with this strongly enough.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

robojerk said:


> I think a lot of changes could be welcomed if done right.
> 
> Saving the second wedding from book 3 to Season 4, means Tyrion won't spend the entirety of next season doing what he did in book 4.


Do bear in mind that Season 4 is the second half of Book 3 (with bits of Book 4 scattered throughout Seasons 3 & 4)...


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

It took me a long time to read book 3 (found the first part to be fairly boring, so I would only read occasionally.) so I might be forgetting, but I don't remember Theon being in Book 3 at all. The last we saw of Theon was at the end of Book 2 (being taken away from Winterfell.) 

Is the Theon story line from this week's episode from a later book? Or did I just completely overlook something in the books? Is there a mention of him in another character's chapter?


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

Theon doesn't appear again until book 5 so it looks like they are pulling in some of that storyline early. They did the same with Jaime last season since he does not appear in book 2.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

TriBruin said:


> It took me a long time to read book 3 (found the first part to be fairly boring, so I would only read occasionally.) so I might be forgetting, but I don't remember Theon being in Book 3 at all. The last we saw of Theon was at the end of Book 2 (being taken away from Winterfell.)
> 
> Is the Theon story line from this week's episode from a later book? Or did I just completely overlook something in the books? Is there a mention of him in another character's chapter?


I thought my memory was playing tricks with me again. I was surprised to see that scene so early.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I think its funny that people found Dany's army building boring. Some of my favorite parts were Dany acquiring troops, conquering, acquiring more troops, until she had a mobile nation. She basically built a new khalasar. She learned on the fly how to manage a nation, not just an army, but a collection of varied peolples with mouths to feed, kids to raise, animals to herd...

And her people loved her.

I love her last line from book three. "I'm going to rule."


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Was the scene & story that Catelyn (about how Jon Snow had the pox and she prayed yada yada) told in the books? I don't recall that.

Also, wasn't the meeting of Meera & Jojen with Bran & company at Winterfell before they snuck away?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

astrohip said:


> Was the scene & story that Catelyn (about how Jon Snow had the pox and she prayed yada yada) told in the books? I don't recall that.
> 
> Also, wasn't the meeting of Meera & Jojen with Bran & company at Winterfell before they snuck away?


No, and yes.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Was the scene & story that Catelyn (about how Jon Snow had the pox and she prayed yada yada) told in the books? I don't recall that.


I think they're trying to humanize her. Her character was more fleshed out in the books.

Put me in the Dany is boring camp


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I loved the scene with Diana Rigg. It was almost exactly like the one in the book except for the fool singing at the top of his lungs so they could be sure they no one could hear them. I wonder if they will leave out Right and Left? 

Weird that they brought in the Hound already. I thought Arya would travel with the Brotherhood for a while before he showed up. Maybe they're leaving out the part about one of the boys from Winterfell being in the group and recognizing her. 

I agree with Karstark that it's odd to march all the way back to Riverrun for Rob's grandfather's funeral. In the books they were already there. I'm not sure I get the point of their being at Harranhal at all.  Or maybe I'm still confused about where they are.


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> I loved the scene with Diana Rigg. It was almost exactly like the one in the book except for the fool singing at the top of his lungs so they could be sure they no one could hear them. I wonder if they will leave out Right and Left?
> 
> Weird that they brought in the Hound already. I thought Arya would travel with the Brotherhood for a while before he showed up. Maybe they're leaving out the part about one of the boys from Winterfell being in the group and recognizing her.
> 
> I agree with Karstark that it's odd to march all the way back to Riverrun for Rob's grandfather's funeral. In the books they were already there. I'm not sure I get the point of their being at Harranhal at all.  Or maybe I'm still confused about where they are.


I was cracking up at the singing, and heckling the fool from my side of the TV screen. 

I loved that scene with the Brotherhood archer and the fat boy! I'm sure the kid needs a change of pants now. :up:


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Was the scene & story that Catelyn (about how Jon Snow had the pox and she prayed yada yada) told in the books? I don't recall that.
> 
> 
> DavidTigerFan said:
> ...


I'm not a fan of adding this kind of made-up backstory to the TV series. It changes the character. She is what she is (or rather, what GRRM wrote). It's one thing to edit & change to make the transition from book to screen. But this is adding an entire "event" to the life of Catelyn that didn't exist. I vote no.:down:



jehma said:


> Put me in the Dany is boring camp


Nooooo! I love the Dany scenes. Can't wait for the episode where she buys the 8,000 Unsullied.:up:


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

astrohip said:


> Nooooo! I love the Dany scenes. Can't wait for the episode where she buys the 8,000 Unsullied.:up:


/Checks to verify the thread I am viewing

I can't wait to see what she does with the 8000 she buys.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> /Checks to verify the thread I am viewing


As did I before I posted it.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> I think its funny that people found Dany's army building boring. Some of my favorite parts were Dany acquiring troops, conquering, acquiring more troops, until she had a mobile nation. She basically built a new khalasar. She learned on the fly how to manage a nation, not just an army, but a collection of varied peolples with mouths to feed, kids to raise, animals to herd...
> 
> And her people loved her.
> 
> I love her last line from book three. "I'm going to rule."


I enjoyed the first part of that immensely, where she buys the Unsullied and marches them. But that goes on far too long in the books for me. I actually can't remember exactly which books have which aspects of Dany's story so I won't go into detail.

I'm _really_ looking forward to her plotline in this season of the TV show, because you're right, the beginning of her journey is really exciting. I was bummed at the opening of yesterday's episode when I realized they wouldn't be spending any time over there.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Regarding my comments on Dany, I also don't remember what was in each book so I shouldn't make blanket statements. She has some good pieces now and then.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> I loved the scene with Diana Rigg. *It was almost exactly like the one in the book except for the fool singing at the top of his lungs so they could be sure they no one could hear them*. I wonder if they will leave out Right and Left?
> 
> Weird that they brought in the Hound already. I thought Arya would travel with the Brotherhood for a while before he showed up. Maybe they're leaving out the part about one of the boys from Winterfell being in the group and recognizing her.
> 
> I agree with Karstark that it's odd to march all the way back to Riverrun for Rob's grandfather's funeral. In the books they were already there. I'm not sure I get the point of their being at Harranhal at all.  Or maybe I'm still confused about where they are.


The Bear and Maiden Fair. Interesting that they chose not to use it, as it is foreshadowing in the book.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

He was singing the Rains of Castamere


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

billypritchard said:


> The Bear and Maiden Fair. Interesting that they chose not to use it, as it is foreshadowing in the book.





DavidTigerFan said:


> He was singing the Rains of Castamere


He is talking about a character from the book who was not used in the show, DTF, not Anguy which is who you are talking about.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> He is talking about a character from the book who was not used in the show, DTF, not Anguy which is who you are talking about.


Yeah, they dropped Tom Sevenstrings and Lem and moved Thoros to their part, which makes perfect sense. Good tightening of story there.

And yes, Anguy was singing Rains of Castamere, which is good to reinforce for the viewers, but probably makes zero sense for them to be singing in this circumstance.


----------



## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

This *might* have been brought up in S2 discussions, but it continues in S3, so I'll bring it up (maybe again).

/Rant on

I hate the whole Robb Jeyne/Talisa romance thing as portrayed in the TV show.

As written - Robb still maintains his honor and dignity even though he weds Jeyne - he breaks down in a fit of despair after hearing about the (supposed) murder of his two brothers at Winterfell and sleeps with Jeyne who is caring for him (as a nurse) after he's wounded. He then marries her to protect her honor. Gracious and honorable, even in the act of messing up with the Freys.

In the TV show - he just decides "I like her more" and based on his own feelings or whatever, marries "Talisa" instead. Not honorable - pretty much the opposite. 

In my mind - changing time and condensing story lines, plots, etc is acceptable as you could never put the books to film without that...but wholesale changes in character definition and the essential DNA of a character, especially one as pivotal as Robb, makes me mad.

/Rant off


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, that's a big problem with the kind of compression that's necessary to get a massive series of books into a relatively tiny TV series...these things inevitably happen. And in this case not only the character issues you mention, but also just in terms of plot it cheapens, er, what follows. Which I think is important enough to justify the extra time to make the set-up perfect.

Still, considering what they're up against it's kind of a miracle that they haven't had more of this kind of misfire.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I forget how much stuff they have to cover. With where everyone ended up I thought tonight with end with the attack at Craster's or Dany's attack on Astapor. I forgot that Jaime lost hand after getting caught, I thought that happened much later.

Since I have only read through book three the Theon stuff is all new to me. Its weird having a storyline where I have no clue what is going to happen.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> I forget how much stuff they have to cover. With where everyone ended up I thought tonight with end with the attack at Craster's or Dany's attack on Astapor. I forgot that Jaime lost hand after getting caught, I thought that happened much later.
> 
> Since I have only read through book three the Theon stuff is all new to me. Its weird having a storyline where I have no clue what is going to happen.


I'm only 45% through book one so I literally yelled out loud at the end of tonight's episode.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

As someone who's read the books, it's weird to see the story condensed a little and the exclusion of certain folks such as Lem and the Brave Companions. However, having to explain everything to my girlfriend who watches, I can only imagine how confusing all those characters would be. I already have to explain to her that Roose Bolton, the Bastard and the group that picked up Brienne and Jaime are all the same folk.

I think that's easily overlooked by non-book viewers since the only thing the three groups have in common are the Sigil.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

My husband's comment after watching tonight was that they just from character to character too much and don't spend enough time with each one. He hasn't read the books.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

jehma said:


> My husband's comment after watching tonight was that they just from character to character too much and don't spend enough time with each one. He hasn't read the books.


I'm only about halfway through book one and I am really enjoying how much more the characters are explored in the books. I feel like I'm getting to know each one so much more than I've been allowed to during the series. Yet, I'm afraid it would be impossible to translate all of that to film.

One thing that really has surprised me is how much younger some of the characters are in the books as opposed to the tv show. They are children! It's also hard of me to think of Joffrey as being handsome like he is described in the books. No offense to the actor, but he's a bit weird looking, which in my opinion adds to the character.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> I'm only about halfway through book one and I am really enjoying how much more the characters are explored in the books. I feel like I'm getting to know each one so much more than I've been allowed to during the series. Yet, I'm afraid it would be impossible to translate all of that to film.
> 
> One thing that really has surprised me is how much younger some of the characters are in the books as opposed to the tv show. They are children! It's also hard of me to think of Joffrey as being handsome like he is described in the books. No offense to the actor, but he's a bit weird looking, which in my opinion adds to the character.


Edmure Tully was much younger than I expected in the show.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Yes, during S1 of the show we were all commenting how they added years to everyone's age, compared to the books. I think they felt that (a) it would be too uncomfortable for viewers to see such young kids going through these things, and (b) they would grow and change too quickly between seasons .


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

madscientist said:


> (a) it would be too uncomfortable for viewers to see such young kids going through these things,


Just thinking of Dany's scenes alone.....  What is she in the books? 12? 13? I'm glad they decided to age some of them.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Yeah, there was a lot of sex stuff with the various kids that really needed them to be aged. It's a lot harder to gloss that kind of stuff over when you have actual human beings onscreen...


----------



## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

madscientist said:


> Yes, during S1 of the show we were all commenting how they added years to everyone's age, compared to the books. I think they felt that (a) it would be too uncomfortable for viewers to see such young kids going through these things, and *(b) they would grow and change too quickly between seasons *.


As it is, some of the younger ones *cough*Bran*uncough* look visibly older this season than last.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

The good news is, a lot of time is passing (e.g., it's been a year since Jaime was captured), so it's appropriate for the kids to be growing.

It's not like, say, Shameless, where only a year or so (?) has passed over the first three seasons...


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Am I misremembering Book 3, or are they dramatically altering Theon's storyline?

Also, I'm glad (but a bit surprised) to see that they went for it with Jaime's hand.  I thought they might alter that one as well after they opted to let Tyrion keep his nose.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Also, I'm glad (but a bit surprised) to see that they went for it with Jaime's hand.  I thought they might alter that one as well after they opted to let Tyrion keep his nose.


I'd say Jaime's hand would be a lot harder to write around than Tyrion's nose...it would be hard to let him keep the hand and be the same character.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'd say Jaime's hand would be a lot harder to write around than Tyrion's nose...it would be hard to let him keep the hand and be the same character.


That's what I thought they would do too, but I wasn't sure if the CGI or logistical concerns of filming that would outweigh the story concerns.


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Am I misremembering Book 3, or are they dramatically altering Theon's storyline?


Theon is not in book 3 or 4 so they are pulling some from book 5.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Whatever they are pulling, I don't remember.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> Since I have only read through book three the Theon stuff is all new to me. Its weird having a storyline where I have no clue what is going to happen.


I've read all 5 books, and I still have no clue what is going on with Theon. Although I do know what eventually happens.  Any ideas who this boy is?



audioscience said:


> I already have to explain to her that Roose Bolton, the Bastard and the group that picked up Brienne and Jaime are all the same folk.


Who is the guy who chopped off Jamie's hand? The recap said Locke. In the book at least they chopped off his hand kind of in the midst of battle rather than so calmly. He's not lying about how powerful and rich his dad is. Probably a big mistake, but then Tywin is not sentimental and doesn't seem to care much about any of his children. But he likes jamie better than Tyrion. 



Rob Helmerichs said:


> The good news is, a lot of time is passing (e.g., it's been a year since Jaime was captured), so it's appropriate for the kids to be growing.


I was surprised to hear them say it had been a year. Winter is coming Very Slowly....


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I was surprised to hear them say it had been a year. Winter is coming Very Slowly....


That's one thing that's easy to lose track of, even in the books but especially on the show...this world is very, very large, and these people spend an awful lot of time walking across it. Whenever people go from one place to another, weeks or months pass. And they travel a lot. It all adds up.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> I was surprised to hear them say it had been a year. Winter is coming Very Slowly....


In this world, summers last years. This last summer lasted decades. That portends, as the Maester told us way back in Winterfell, a particularly harsh winter, though I doubt he had any idea that creatures from legend would be part of it when he said that.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Who is the guy who chopped off Jamie's hand? The recap said Locke. In the book at least they chopped off his hand kind of in the midst of battle rather than so calmly.


Nope. In the book the Brave Companions chop his hand off after capturing him, quite ruthlessly, in a bid to sow some political ill-will between the Lannisters and the Boltons, because they think the Boltons are going to flip allegiance from Robb to the Lannisters and they hope the hand-chopping will be blamed on the Boltons.

It doesn't happen during the midst of a battle.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> I've read all 5 books, and I still have no clue what is going on with Theon. Although I do know what eventually happens.  Any ideas who this boy is?


With thw words "Winter is coming," I believe we were being tipped off that he was a northerner. The question is why would any northener give theon any good will.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Well, I can say this without spoiling anything. I'm glad the series is chopping (pun intended) alot of the fluff Martin put in. I found it very hard to slog through 4 and 5.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Potential spoiler from book 5:



Spoiler



Wasn't it not until Book 5 that Mance and Jon attack Castle Black?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Potential spoiler from book 5:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No it is book 3 for sure. I know because book three is as far as I have read and the attack on castle black was toward the end of the book, as well as John making Knight Commander.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

The Pod scene was an interesting creation in this episode.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

billypritchard said:


> The Pod scene was an interesting creation in this episode.


Totally worth it though.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I think they did a decent job with Talisa. The way they portrayed her really makes her very likable and composed, and seems exactly like someone Robb would go for in the chaos of war, and makes it easier to understand what he did. And his reason for marrying her may be exactly the same as in the book - after sleeping with her in the tent, he felt guilty. At least Talisa is a real person, we don't get much about Jeyne in the books. Of course every time I see her, I cringe, knowing what that leads to ...



jwehman said:


> This *might* have been brought up in S2 discussions, but it continues in S3, so I'll bring it up (maybe again).
> 
> /Rant on
> 
> ...


Oh, and separately, concerning Dany's army building ... the first parts were great. Post Astapor it was painful to read ... but that's another book ...


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Q: During the opening credits, the animation of Astapor features a field with a series of parallel tracks that have pairs of crates chained together moving along the tracks.

What is that supposed to be?


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

heySkippy said:


> Q: During the opening credits, the animation of Astapor features a field with a series of parallel tracks that have pairs of crates chained together moving along the tracks.
> 
> What is that supposed to be?


Not sure of the answer, but I love the Harpy that rises over Slavers Bay. That is awesome. Also like the 'unactivated' city in the distance.

Maybe the field is some sort of Unsullied training area?


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

About Theon (book 5 spoilers below):



Spoiler



A week after I finish a book, I'm not the best at recalling details, but IIRC, although Theon reappears in ADWD as Reek (although we aren't told it is Theon right off the bat), there are comments peppered throughout the introduction to the Reek character about how when he was first captured, his captives used to mess with him by making him think he escaped and making a game of hunting him down. It seems to me that we are just being shown this process from the beginning rather than having Theon on the sidelines for several seasons.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

3D said:


> About Theon (book 5 spoilers below):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that is where it looks like they are going, and in fact, that's what I thought was happening when Theon "escaped"... but



Spoiler



I find it curious that Ramsay (the Bastard) Bolton is apparently the one who a) set him free, b) killed his pursuers (who were almost certainly Bolton men), and c) is now escorting him one-on-one in his "escape". That's a pretty big departure from the books.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I agree that is where it looks like they are going, and in fact, that's what I thought was happening when Theon "escaped"... but
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought this too, but


Spoiler



he did have a close bond with Bolton--kind of a love/hate thing. He almost thanked him for flaying him only 2 days a week instead of all 7. At least that's how I remember it--it's been a while. Maybe this is how the bond was forged originally? I definitely pictured Ramsay as older and uglier.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> I thought this too, but
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



He's described as being very ugly. That threw me off since the actor didn't match the physical appearance. I only knew it was Ramsay because my daughter told me she had read that actor was cast for the part.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I take back what I said about Dany, at least in this book. Wow, her scenes were fantastic!

I don't remember the suspicion of Littlefinger being interested in Sansa sexually in the book, but they're definitely playing it up in the show. Am I misremembering this?


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

jehma said:


> I take back what I said about Dany, at least in this book. Wow, her scenes were fantastic!
> 
> I don't remember the suspicion of Littlefinger being interested in Sansa sexually in the book, but they're definitely playing it up in the show. Am I misremembering this?


He is most definately interested. Not sure if sexually is the right word, but he definately sees her as a replacement for Kat (especially later in Book 3). His feelings definately as we move along.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

jehma said:


> I take back what I said about Dany, at least in this book. Wow, her scenes were fantastic!
> 
> I don't remember the suspicion of Littlefinger being interested in Sansa sexually in the book, but they're definitely playing it up in the show. Am I misremembering this?


I've always thought that Littlefinger's motivations with regard to Sansa were ambiguous. Certainly, they are motivated in large part by his lifelong infatuation with Catelyn (with the other part being his ambition, since Sansa would be seen as the heir to Winterfell). But I could never quite decide whether he saw her as a romantic replacement for the Catelyn he could never have, or if he wanted to take care of her because his love for Catelyn compelled him to do so.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

jehma said:


> I don't remember the suspicion of Littlefinger being interested in Sansa sexually in the book, but they're definitely playing it up in the show. Am I misremembering this?


He hasn't really shown a lot of sexual interest in her in the show either, has he? But then Roz says he isn't interested in his girls either. Cat seems to be the only woman he's ever cared about, and that could be more because he couldn't have her than anything else.

It really makes more sense the way the show is doing it. In the books when she didn't even know she was going with Petyr and ran off with the Fool it was crazier. But then she was married in the books..... I wonder if she will be married here? 

So "the boy" killed off 5 or 6 of his own men to play this game with Theon? I liked hearing Theon say that his real father was killed in Kings Landing and he realized it too late. I don't remember him ever coming out and admitting that in the books.

The Dany stuff was really well done. I was waiting for her to admit to speaking their language, but I didn't remember that it was old Valerian.  I always think that some scenes will be really hard to show, and then they do an awesome job. :up:

Isn't Loras in the Kings Guard? I was surprised when Margarery offered him as a husband.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Isn't Loras in the Kings Guard? I was surprised when Margarery offered him as a husband.


I don't think the show has shown that. And it is easier in the show to say Loras who everyone knows as opposed to Loras's brother who will never be seen anyway.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> He hasn't really shown a lot of sexual interest in her in the show either, has he?


No, but the other characters have been talking about it and I didn't remember that at this point in the book.



stellie93 said:


> It really makes more sense the way the show is doing it. In the books when she didn't even know she was going with Petyr and ran off with the Fool it was crazier. But then she was married in the books..... I wonder if she will be married here?


Yes, I wonder that as well. I can't wait to see how it plays out.



stellie93 said:


> Isn't Loras in the Kings Guard? I was surprised when Margarery offered him as a husband.


OK, just start making fun of my bad memory now, but isn't Loras the wrong brother? What happened to Willas?


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> I don't think the show has shown that. And it is easier in the show to say Loras who everyone knows as opposed to Loras's brother who will never be seen anyway.


They haven't mentioned him at all, have they?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jehma said:


> They haven't mentioned him at all, have they?


No and I seriously doubt they will.

This show juggles enough characters as it is. No need to throw out a name to the non book readers for someone that is never even shown in the books.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> No and I seriously doubt they will.
> 
> This show juggles enough characters as it is. No need to throw out a name to the non book readers for someone that is never even shown in the books.


I agree. I think Loras serves their purpose well here without adding more characters.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

But it's really different--Loras is a gay guy who Sansa has the hots for. The brother is a cripple who would probably make her a really good husband, but it's Sansa we're talking about. I guess it doesn't matter since this is probably all we'll ever hear about it.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> But it's really different--Loras is a gay guy who Sansa has the hots for. The brother is a cripple who would probably make her a really good husband, but it's Sansa we're talking about. I guess it doesn't matter since this is probably all we'll ever hear about it.


/checks thread title

Since it never comes to pass, it really doesn't matter so long as it triggers the next set of events.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

What's the deal with the wizard in the box? I don't remember this from the books.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> What's the deal with the wizard in the box? I don't remember this from the books.


Not in the books


----------



## jwehman (Feb 26, 2003)

In the book, Sansa was offered the hand of Margarie's brother, and she initially thought it was Loras and she was all excited and flustered...then found out it was the other brother (with the lame leg). This was at the dinner with the Tyrell women (her first meeting with them) Loras (in the book) couldn't marry because he was a Kingsguard of Joffrey after the battle.

But - I agree, it's easier to keep with Loras in the TV show (even though he is portrayed as gay, which was not part of the book)


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

jwehman said:


> But - I agree, it's easier to keep with Loras in the TV show (even though he is portrayed as gay, which was not part of the book)


Really? He seemed gay in the books to me. I don't recall whether it was stated outright, but I certainly had that impression before seeing the HBO version.


----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

It's not as obvious in the books. It's much more subtle, but it's there.


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Ereth said:


> It's not as obvious in the books. It's much more subtle, but it's there.


Things like Sansa dancing with Garlan Tyrell at her wedding and he tells her Tyrion will make a more suitable husband than Loras.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Interesting that they made a change with the Unsullied names in the show. In the book, they drew a new name every day. In the show, they said they were given a new name on the day they were cut and became unsullied. I'm not sure why they felt that change was necessary.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JETarpon said:


> Interesting that they made a change with the Unsullied names in the show. In the book, they drew a new name every day. In the show, they said they were given a new name on the day they were cut and became unsullied. I'm not sure why they felt that change was necessary.


The part about the lucky name actually made more sense in the books, since it was the name they drew on the day they were freed. On the show, they had the name for a long time before they were freed.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

In the books I didn't think it was kids that Karstark killed, although everybody was younger in the books. That made it a little more vicious of an act. 

I wondered if they were going to leave out Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Glad they're doing it. 10 episodes goes by so fast, and they have so much more to cover. I wonder if Sansa's wedding will be this season? Loras doesn't seem to realize that everyone in the Kingdom knows he's gay...doing things that couldn't possibly result in a child. 

Someone suggested that Robb just go back north--I don't think that's possible now, is it? The Frey's and Greyjoys hold all the passages north. I think if he could have just gone home at this point, he would have. So the taking Casterly Rock is a change from the book--not that it will ever happen.

What was the deal with the babies in the jars? Will the Red Lady use them for offerings? But you'd think she would have already.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> Loras doesn't seem to realize that _*everyone *_in the Kingdom knows he's gay...


Not everyone


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> What was the deal with the babies in the jars? Will the Red Lady use them for offerings? But you'd think she would have already.


That wasn't the Red Lady, that was Stannis's wife. And their children.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> What was the deal with the babies in the jars? Will the Red Lady use them for offerings? But you'd think she would have already.


.

One of them was named Edric.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

I think Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is too large a plot point to leave out.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> That wasn't the Red Lady, that was Stannis's wife. And their children.


Even so, the question makes sense (except the part about "would have already").


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Even so, the question makes sense (except the part about "would have already").


I think the answer is, wifey is cray-cray, and can't let go of her stillborn sons.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think the answer is, wifey is cray-cray, and can't let go of her stillborn sons.


I meant the question about whether Melisandre might use them as offerings. They have Stannis' blood, after all. But maybe they are not useful as offerings unless they are alive.

But I agree that she is crazy.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

jwehman said:


> But - I agree, it's easier to keep with Loras in the TV show (even though he is portrayed as gay, which was not part of the book)


I never thought Loras was gay in the books either and thoughti it was a weird twist in the show.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

audioscience said:


> I never thought Loras was gay in the books either and thoughti it was a weird twist in the show.


Jaime grabbed the boy [Loras] with his good hand and yanked him around. I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you arrogant pup. Your commander, so long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or Ill take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JETarpon said:


> Jaime grabbed the boy [Loras] with his good hand and yanked him around. I am the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, you arrogant pup. Your commander, so long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or Ill take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.


Nice quote. From _A Storm of Swords_. Also, I believe Martin himself has confirmed that he wrote Loras as gay.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

audioscience said:


> I never thought Loras was gay in the books either and thoughti it was a weird twist in the show.


Really? He is clearly gay in the books.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Really? He is clearly gay in the books.


I wouldn't say clearly. I felt there was enough there about him and Renly that it _seemed_ like there might have been a relationship, but it was never clearly shown quite like it was in the TV show.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> I wouldn't say clearly. I felt there was enough there about him and Renly that it _seemed_ like there might have been a relationship, but it was never clearly shown quite like it was in the TV show.


Well, clearly in the sense that there was no reasonable doubt.

It would have been pretty much impossible to pull it off on the show, where we can actually SEE the interactions that are described in lightly-coded text in the books. But anybody who didn't realize he was gay in the books got zoomed.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

I'm not always the sharpest tack in the box, but I thought it was clear in the books that Renly was gay. As in no doubt. Never rubbed in our face, just the way he was.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

astrohip said:


> I'm not always the sharpest tack in the box, but I thought it was clear in the books that Renly was gay. As in no doubt. Never rubbed in our face, just the way he was.


Yes, but we were mostly talking about Loras...


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

D'oh!



john4200 said:


> Yes, but we were mostly talking about Loras...
> 
> 
> astrohip said:
> ...


But yes, I meant Loras.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Jstkiddn said:


> Interesting theory but..
> 
> (spoilerized because I mention the book)
> 
> ...


So? Nobody ever looks like their uncle? This is a topic that has been hotly debated in discussion about these books for years. Don't shut down discussion in a show thread using evidence from the books, when it isn't even clear in the books.


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> So? Nobody ever looks like their uncle? This is a topic that has been hotly debated in discussion about these books for years. Don't shut down discussion in a show thread using evidence from the books, when it isn't even clear in the books.


I deleted it. 

What you say about relatives is very true. I guess it stood out to me so much because by mentioning it more than once, the author seemed to *really* be trying to get the point across that they physically favored one another, which now that I give it some thought could be a red herring.

Should be interesting to see how it turns out.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I'm not convinced that Ned would affirmatively lie about Jon's parentage. He may demur to questions, but would he allow Jon to be given the surname Snow, when that can only happen if Jon is the bastard of a noble house of the North?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

In the first book Ned often thinks back to a secret that is eating him up on the inside.

I also believe Ned's sister Lyana had the same features as Ned.


----------



## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I'm not convinced that Ned would affirmatively lie about Jon's parentage. He may demur to questions, but would he allow Jon to be given the surname Snow, when that can only happen if Jon is the bastard of a noble house of the North?


Ned has never lied about Jon Snow. He just does not respond when asked the question. Changing his name may not have been Ned's decision given that Jon had to be smuggled back to Winterfell


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

cherry ghost said:


> .
> 
> One of them was named Edric.


Wasn't Edric Storm the name of Robert's bastard? Different Edric? And the Red Lady did want to use him. I guess they were just there to show how crazy Stannis's wife is--as if her devotion to the woman her husband is sleeping with isn't enough.



DreadPirateRob said:


> I'm not convinced that Ned would affirmatively lie about Jon's parentage. He may demur to questions, but would he allow Jon to be given the surname Snow, when that can only happen if Jon is the bastard of a noble house of the North?


There are lots of people who could be Jon's parent and are nobles of the North. I'm sure if Ned lied, he hated it and he had a really good reason. Like maybe someone made him promise on his/her deathbed. Plus at the time he barely knew Cat, was probably aware that marrying him was a disappointment to her, and figured it wouldn't bother her that much.

Since I watched season 1 of the show before I read any books, I'm not sure if I would have realized that Loras was gay. It's definitely presented as more of a secret in the books.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> Wasn't Edric Storm the name of Robert's bastard? Different Edric? And the Red Lady did want to use him. I guess they were just there to show how crazy Stannis's wife is--as if her devotion to the woman her husband is sleeping with isn't enough.


Yes, but Davos got him out of Dragonstone before she could sacrifice him. I don't think we'll see Edric Storm on the show.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

This is pure speculation that I'm sure I'm not the only one who has come across on various forums over the years, but I'll spoiler it in an abundance of caution (relates to what I think is the most likely theory on Snow's parentage)



Spoiler



I think even on the show it was mentioned that Robert was in love with Ned's sister and that he slew one of the Targaryens (I believe Danarys's oldest brother, but not sure and can't recall the name) who he (Robert) claimed had raped her. I tend to side with the theory that Robert's love was unrequited and that any intimacy between Ned's sister and Targaryen was mutual. Jon is the result of that union and although he has Stark blood, he is also half Targaryen and would have been slaughtered, even as an infant, if Robert found out. I think even a man of honor such as Ned would find that lying about being Jon's father was justified under those circumstances, although I'm not sure why he wouldn't have eventually confided in Catelyn.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

3D said:


> This is pure speculation that I'm sure I'm not the only one who has come across on various forums over the years, but I'll spoiler it in an abundance of caution (relates to what I think is the most likely theory on Snow's parentage)
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Rhaegar Targaryen. Throughout my reading, no one (other than King Robert Baratheon) says anything bad about the guy. Even when King Robert bad mouths Rhaegar about the abduction of Lyana Stark, Ned remains silent. Every other character who was around during the rebellion only speaks kindly of Rhaegar.

It is rumored The Mountain killed Rhaegar's infant son (from Rhagears wife) by throwing the child against a brick wall. This was recently brought up during The Hounds trial by combat with the Brotherhood w/o Banners.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

That is the theory I believe.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> That is the theory I believe.


Me too.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Wow, a _big_ departure from the book in this week's episode! What's going on with Gendry!


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Gendry is replacing Edric Storm.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I thought Ros was going to play a part later, sad to see she died.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

How in the name of the old gods and the new would Loras know of such a thing as "French cuffs."


----------



## Bean7 (May 6, 2013)

why a lots of tv series have some gay couple? No offense about gay people but i think that weird, did the author really write about that?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Yes. Renly and Loras were gay in the books, but it was very subtle.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> How in the name of the old gods and the new would Loras know of such a thing as "French cuffs."


At first I thought he said French too, but I watched it again and I am sure now he said 'fringe cuffs'.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> Yes. Renly and Loras were gay in the books, but it was very subtle.


Well, there's some debate as to how subtle it was.

But he never came out (cough) and said it.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Sad to see Roz go. It was funny how she kept popping up in various (TV) scenes, regardless of whether the books used her that way or not. I felt like the writers were having fun with her, and were going to keep using her every few eps, just for fun.

Guess not... 

And did Melisandre ever appear in the Riverlands, or run into Arya? I remember her & Stannis making the trip to the Wall/North, but not last night's scene.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

astrohip said:


> And did Melisandre ever appear in the Riverlands, or run into Arya? I remember her & Stannis making the trip to the Wall/North, but not last night's scene.


No. Not that I remember. If its true that they'll use gendry to replace edric storm, I'm betting that will put a kink in future plots. I always thought gendry was underused in the books because by all rights he has a legitimate claim to the throne by being Roberts bastard. I assumed GRRM would end up using him later, but he just sort of disappeared.

I don't think thoros and mellisandra ever met in the books.

I wonder how the series is going to handle a lot of this. You can kinda see that GRRM has a grand plan between the walkers being susceptible to fire, dragons breathing fire, multiple claims to king/queenship, etc.. The series is going to have to boils a lot of this down. I wonder where in the book chronology we will be by the end of the season. Wasn't Jon snow scaling the wall in book 5?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> You can kinda see that GRRM has a grand plan between the walkers being susceptible to fire, dragons breathing fire, multiple claims to king/queenship, etc..


Just from a show only perspective, I get so wrapped up in the drama surrounding the various people that I totally forget about the walkers.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> No. Not that I remember. If its true that they'll use gendry to replace edric storm, I'm betting that will put a kink in future plots. I always thought gendry was underused in the books because by all rights he has a legitimate claim to the throne by being Roberts bastard. I assumed GRRM would end up using him later, but he just sort of disappeared.
> 
> I don't think thoros and mellisandra ever met in the books.
> 
> I wonder how the series is going to handle a lot of this. You can kinda see that GRRM has a grand plan between the walkers being susceptible to fire, dragons breathing fire, multiple claims to king/queenship, etc.. The series is going to have to boils a lot of this down. I wonder where in the book chronology we will be by the end of the season. Wasn't Jon snow scaling the wall in book 5?


No, he definetly scaled it in book 3. By the end of book three Jon was made Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. We won't see that this season though. Things are moving too slowly.

As far as Gendry being used in place of Edric, it makes sense to me. Now Davos has someone to rescue from Dragonstone in order to betray Stannis.


----------



## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> At first I thought he said French too, but I watched it again and I am sure now he said 'fringe cuffs'.


I thought he said Goth cuffs....

He actually said fringed sleeves.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

my mistake


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

You mean we *don't* get French Benefits?

--Carlos "yes, I know we skip commercials" V.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> As far as Gendry being used in place of Edric, it makes sense to me. Now Davos has someone to rescue from Dragonstone in order to betray Stannis.


So can we assume that they asked GRRM and he said he had no further need of Gendry? I really hoped he and Arya would get back together at some point. Is Stannis still at Dragonstone? The Red Lady has traveled quite a ways to get Gendry, hasn't she? And now would she take him back there so Davos can save him? The recap (which is really funny this week) says that she's going to make a smoke monster baby with him--I was thinking she would just burn him. 

I like the idea that the Red God sent Thoros here to try to convert Westeros--did she say Robert? Preaching any god to Robert Barathian would be a waste of breath. That's an interesting aside that I don't think was in the books.

Also I never got the impression from the books that Ygritte thought Jon was still a loyal Crow.

I wonder when Melissandra and Arya will meet again? Since I don't remember them ever meeting in books 1-5.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> So can we assume that they asked GRRM and he said he had no further need of Gendry?


One can almost read the future by seeing how the TV show and the books vary, and what gets dropped and what doesn't. We know GRRM talks to the showrunners, so if "X" is going to be a major player in book six, the writers need to make sure they don't kill "X" off before then. And conversely, if Gendry doesn't play a role in the endgame, they can write him off now, instead of whenever the books do.

But I say almost because we still don't know what will happen to Gendry. He may well be saved, and live to rule the world.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> So can we assume that they asked GRRM and he said he had no further need of Gendry? I really hoped he and Arya would get back together at some point.


I know that Martin has given the two producers (I forget their names) the needed details to finish the story if they get ahead of the books or he dies. So I would assume they have some inside track on what, if anything, will ever happen to Gendry.



stellie93 said:


> Is Stannis still at Dragonstone? The Red Lady has traveled quite a ways to get Gendry, hasn't she? And now would she take him back there so Davos can save him? The recap (which is really funny this week) says that she's going to make a smoke monster baby with him--I was thinking she would just burn him.


Just as Davos was able to smuggle out Edric in the books, I would imagine he will smuggle out Gendry in a similar way. I don't think she will exactly use Gendry the same way she used Stannis. In the books she used three leeches that had sucked on Edric in her ritual to kill the three false kings. I wonder if that will happen here.



stellie93 said:


> I like the idea that the Red God sent Thoros here to try to convert Westeros--did she say Robert? Preaching any god to Robert Barathian would be a waste of breath. That's an interesting aside that I don't think was in the books.


Not in the books I have read, but I have only read the first three.



stellie93 said:


> I wonder when Melissandra and Arya will meet again? Since I don't remember them ever meeting in books 1-5.


I assume this was deliberately put in for one of two reasons. Either A) Martin shared the details of a future meeting between these two characters that has not happened thus far in the books, or B) the show runners have another change from the books that involves both Melisandre and Arya.

My guess is option A.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Well Arya still has to go across the sea and train to be a faceless man. For them to meet again, they'll have to skip over all that or at least fast forward through alot of it. I don't think they'll meet again this season though.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Oh, one other thing...Sansa was crying at the end while watching littlefinger's boat sail away knowing that she'd have to marry Tyrion. I thought Sansa leaves with him? or is smuggled away by him?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Oh, one other thing...Sansa was crying at the end while watching littlefinger's boat sail away knowing that she'd have to marry Tyrion. I thought Sansa leaves with him? or is smuggled away by him?


She was supposed to leave with him, but now that she's being married off into the royal family, presumably it was no longer possible for her to simply slip away.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> She was supposed to leave with him, but now that she's being married off into the royal family, presumably it was no longer possible for her to simply slip away.


But what happens with the whole "Sansa in the Eyrie" story line?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> But what happens with the whole "Sansa in the Eyrie" story line?


There's still time. She goes the night of Joffrey and Margaery's wedding, having already married Tyrion.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

I guess we have to wait till next year for Joffrey's "wedding."


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

yeah, we have three weddings to see before sansa leaves.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> yeah, we have three weddings to see before sansa leaves.


Probably a funeral (or two, or three) also.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

stellie93 said:


> I guess we have to wait till next year for Joffrey's "wedding."





Spoiler



I don't think so. The title of episode nine is 'The rains of castamere" which makes me think we will see the red wedding that episode. That leaves the finale episode of this season, and having that be Joffrey's wedding would make sense as a good point to leave off on before we get to the rest of book three. I suspect we will see Sansa married if not the next episode then the one thereafter.



It sucks there are only four episodes left!


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I'll bet that the last episode will be a cliffhanger with Joffrey's poisoning/death


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I read up on book 3 at westeros.org and realized that I completely forgot about Sir Dontos, Oberlyn Martell, and alot of other characters that look like they'll be left out. It will be interesting to see how they tie it all together.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Also, the entire horn of joramun plot is left out.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I read up on book 3 at westeros.org and realized that I completely forgot about Sir Dontos, Oberlyn Martell, and alot of other characters that look like they'll be left out. It will be interesting to see how they tie it all together.


I think we will see Oberyn in Season 4. Even though his stint in the books was short lived, I loved his character when reading. I was actually heartbroken when the Mountain killed him.

ETA: I have found no concrete casting info, but here is an article about possible actors who could play him.

http://winteriscoming.net/2013/02/casting-season-4-oberyn-martell/

Personally, I think Oded Fehr would be awesome in the role.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I read up on book 3 at westeros.org and realized that I completely forgot about Sir Dontos, Oberlyn Martell, and alot of other characters that look like they'll be left out. It will be interesting to see how they tie it all together.





DavidTigerFan said:


> Also, the entire horn of joramun plot is left out.


I've read the books too and umm I don't remember them either.

There is so much going on in these stories. It is hard to keep track of. Before the last book I found a GREAT web site that summarized each chapter and had pages for each main character etc. The best part was that it had a setting for where you were in the story. So you could look at Jaime's webpage (for example) and if you had it set for the first book only, it wouldn't talk about him losing his hand.

It was awesome to remember all the things going on. Of course, I've forgotten them again since then.

http://towerofthehand.com/

If you register for the site you can set the "scope" to where you are in the stories and anything beyond that point wont show up.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Westeros.org allows chapter by chapter summaries, and more importantly, you can follow the character through all their chapters in a row. 

They also skipped the brave companions and vargoth hoat


----------



## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I'll bet that the last episode will be a cliffhanger with Joffrey's poisoning/death


I'm guessing no Purple Wedding in episode 10. The first two seasons have been structured the same - Build up to Episode 9, Thrilling/Shocking events, then episode 10 is the summary/setup for the next season. If the Red Wedding is episode 9, I don't think we're seeing the other in this one.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

billypritchard said:


> I'm guessing no Purple Wedding in episode 10. The first two seasons have been structured the same - Build up to Episode 9, Thrilling/Shocking events, then episode 10 is the summary/setup for the next season. If the Red Wedding is episode 9, I don't think we're seeing the other in this one.


Those are probably the 2 most shocking things this book. It makes sense to split them over the two seasons.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jehma said:


> Those are probably the 2 most shocking things this book. It makes sense to split them over the two seasons.


Start season 4 off with a bang?

The way I remember it Joffrey's death is shortly after Robb's in the book. And Theon's dad dies shortly before Joffrey, though we never see it. They were all pretty much rapid fire deaths before we race into the final chapters of book 3.

When Robb died I can remember myself thinking '_no, no, no, no,no_' but GRRM got me again. And then Joffrey dies and I am like yes, then Tyrion gets blamed and tossed in jail and I was all no-no-no-no-no again. A big reason I stopped reading after three is because so much happened in three I felt emotionally drained. I loved it though.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DavidTigerFan said:


> I read up on book 3 at westeros.org and realized that I completely forgot about Sir Dontos, Oberlyn Martell, and alot of other characters that look like they'll be left out. It will be interesting to see how they tie it all together.


But then we have another whole season of book 3. Dontos was there when Sansa stopped Joffrey from killing him on his name day, but probably the rest of it will be gone--unless they bring him in to help her escape.

The Martells will be important later on, so I hope they don't skip Oberlyn. How else will we know who the Sand Snakes are?



DavidTigerFan said:


> Also, the entire horn of joramun plot is left out.


Can you remind me what this is? I don't remember any horns in book 3.



DavidTigerFan said:


> They also skipped the brave companions and vargoth hoat


These I can do without.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Can you remind me what this is? I don't remember any horns in book 3.


The Horn of Jaromun was the legendary horn that, if it were sounded, could allegedly topple the Wall. Mance was looking for it and supposedly found it, but told Jon that if he sounded it, then nothing would be there to hold the Others back, so he would only do so as a last resort.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Right, I remember now. But we aren't to the last resort yet, are we?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> Right, I remember now. But we aren't to the last resort yet, are we?


Nope. They never got to that point in the book either. They could still introduce this as a plot point if they wanted, but it's not absolutely critical I don't think.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

That would be a scene though--the horn blows, the wall tumbles down, walkers and giants and mammoths lumber across. Maybe that's the end of book 7.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

Shaunnick said:


> Start season 4 off with a bang?
> 
> The way I remember it Joffrey's death is shortly after Robb's in the book. And Theon's dad dies shortly before Joffrey, though we never see it. They were all pretty much rapid fire deaths before we race into the final chapters of book 3.
> 
> When Robb died I can remember myself thinking '_no, no, no, no,no_' but GRRM got me again. And then Joffrey dies and I am like yes, then Tyrion gets blamed and tossed in jail and I was all no-no-no-no-no again. A big reason I stopped reading after three is because so much happened in three I felt emotionally drained. I loved it though.


I think I read somewhere that the episode GRM is penning next season is number two or three. My guess is that this is when they'll get to Joffrey's death.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

3D said:


> I think I read somewhere that the episode GRM is penning next season is number two or three. My guess is that this is when they'll get to Joffrey's death.


I wish he'd pen the next d#$% book.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Yeah - no way they will have both weddings this seasons. Robb will go down episode 9 this season. Balon Greyjoy probably won't be this season because they have done NO exposition on him. So, Balon early in season 4 - Joffrey somewhere in the middle. Last half of next season will be the battle at the Wall, Tyrion vs Tywin, and Littlefinger and Lysa. Just my guess. There is a LOT of room in there that will need to be filled.


----------



## dtivouser (Feb 10, 2004)

Remind me who is holding Theon in the TV show at this point?


----------



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

I've been watching GoT religiously since S01E01 and I seem to have missed a major plot point. Why is Jon Snow going back to attack castle Black and who exactly are the people he's traveling with?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

dtivouser said:


> Remind me who is holding Theon in the TV show at this point?


I'm not sure if this is book 3 or beyond so spoilers.



Spoiler



Ramsay Bolton, aka The Bastard of Bolton, aka Reek


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Gunnyman said:


> I've been watching GoT religiously since S01E01 and I seem to have missed a major plot point. Why is Jon Snow going back to attack castle Black and who exactly are the people he's traveling with?


Mance Rayder and the wildlings. Mance is a former brother of the black watch who deserted and went north and became the King Beyond the Wall. He and the wildlings are attacking Castle Black because the want to take back "their land" south of the wall.

Jon and Qhorin Halfhand were scouting the wildlings and were going to be taken. Qhorin ordered Jon to join them and do what was necessary to convince them he was deserting the Watch. This included killing Qhorin in a sword fight when they were taken. And schtuping Ygritte.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> I'm not sure if this is book 3 or beyond so spoilers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



I think he's still Ramsay Snow at this point.


----------



## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Thanks Jet. No idea how I missed that.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

JETarpon said:


> I'm not sure if this is book 3 or beyond so spoilers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Theon becomes Reek...not Ramsey


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> Mance Rayder and the wildlings. Mance is a former brother of the black watch who deserted and went north and became the King Beyond the Wall. He and the wildlings are attacking Castle Black because the want to take back "their land" south of the wall.


Just to carry this a step further, I don't think their primary goal is to take their land back. I think (and I could remember this wrong, the books all get clouded together) they know something is brewing north of the wall. The Others are coming back to life and wights are back, so they want to hightail it south of the wall for their own safety.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

astrohip said:


> The Others are coming back to life and wights are back, so they want to hightail it south of the wall for their own safety.


Right. Otherwise, without the potential danger from the North, Mance would probably have ordered the horn blown to try to destroy the wall.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Theon becomes Reek...not Ramsey





Spoiler



In the books we are first introduced to Ramsey as Reek. The TV show took a different route.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Last night we found out Robb Stark's wife is pregnant. Is she pregnant in the books? I can't remember reading that.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Last night we found out Robb Stark's wife is pregnant. Is she pregnant in the books? I can't remember reading that.


I don't remember that in the book either.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Since he had a different wife in the books does it matter?


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Heh, good point  They are trying to provide similar motivations for Robb, though.

I read Jeyne Westerling's bio in the wiki, which discusses the issue (no pun intended ;-) ). There are spoilers from book 4, so avoid if you haven't read it.


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> In the books we are first introduced to Ramsey as Reek. The TV show took a different route.





Spoiler



Reek was Ramsay's servant. They are not the same person. Ramsay hid and disguised himself as Reek. Theon was told that he was Reek as Ramsay kept torturing him and he eventually believed it. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Reek


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Theon becomes Reek...not Ramsey





Spoiler



Ramsay was Reek before Theon became Reek, back when Theon took Winterfell.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

audioscience said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Reek was Ramsay's servant. They are not the same person. Ramsay hid and disguised himself as Reek. Theon was told that he was Reek as Ramsay kept torturing him and he eventually believed it. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Reek


Yes, I know all of that. As I said,



Spoiler



in the books we were first introduced to Ramsay as if he was Reek. It was one of GRRM's many times playing with us on who someone's identity actually was.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Shaunnick said:


> Since he had a different wife in the books does it matter?


Whichever wife it is, if she has a baby it would be lord of Winterfell when Robb is gone. That would do some damage to Sansa and Arya's marriage prospects down the road. In the books Jeyne didn't go to the wedding, so I assume she was still alive at that point.

I don't remember the old warg being hot for Ygritte in the books. Ugh.

Margarey's sluttiness is showing already. 

Tyrion mentioned the gold mines outside Lannisport. If that was in the books I didn't pick up on it. I always wondered where the Lannisters got their gold.

I wonder how old Gendry is supposed to be? He's gotten tall. I like this change with him and Melissandre.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Tyrion mentioned the gold mines outside Lannisport. If that was in the books I didn't pick up on it. I always wondered where the Lannisters got their gold.


It was.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

King Robb's girlfriend is Clara Oswin Oswald. So at least after the wedding, he'll have that to console him.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

I love reading the episode threads, and they're theories. and excitement about the idea of Robb attacking Casterly Rock. I think a lot of people will need counseling after the Tully/Frey wedding episode.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Yeah, when I read that part in the book, I put it aside for a couple weeks before I could forgive GRRM and keep reading. The next wedding does redeem him somewhat.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

robojerk said:


> I love reading the episode threads, and they're theories. and excitement about the idea of Robb attacking Casterly Rock. I think a lot of people will need counseling after the Tully/Frey wedding episode.


I already know my wife will be angry beyond measure. I may have a hard time getting her to watch after the red wedding.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> I already know my wife will be angry beyond measure. I may have a hard time getting her to watch after the red wedding.


In my family 2 have read the books and 3 haven't. They all flipped out when Ned was killed. This is going to be fun.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> Yeah, when I read that part in the book, I put it aside for a couple weeks before I could forgive GRRM and keep reading. The next wedding does redeem him somewhat.


Funny, I picked up my reading speed because I was convinced he couldn't kill Robb and that we would find out he escaped somehow. And with each later chapter reinforcing his death, just killed me. (At least until I got to Joffery's wedding)


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

robojerk said:


> I love reading the episode threads, and they're theories. and excitement about the idea of Robb attacking Casterly Rock. I think a lot of people will need counseling after the Tully/Frey wedding episode.


Heh, yeah. Can't wait for everyone to lose their sh*t. 

I know I had to reread that chapter and was in awe. The close call with Arya at the wedding was a kicker too.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

robojerk said:


> I love reading the episode threads, and they're theories. and excitement about the idea of Robb attacking Casterly Rock. I think a lot of people will need counseling after the Tully/Frey wedding episode.


Totally. I feel bad for them already. I knew it hit me like a ton of bricks when I first read it.


----------



## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

LOL. I finally had enough of the constant pointless Theon scenes and googled to see what happened to his character. That led to reading about other characters, and so on. Let's just say that I'm not shocked at the upcoming weddings, but it is nice to see that all this pointless stuff is actually going somewhere.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

What's worse is they're complaining about episodes moving slowly and not much is happening. Thats what caught me off guard when I was reading the parts leading up to the red wedding, getting lulled into sense of stability. At least with Ned, he was already in somewhat dire circumstances, but a wedding ... .

I still think book 3 is the best of the five so far, primarily for everything that happens starting at the wedding, till the end of the book. 

Should we assume that season 3 will end with the second wedding? Since first one is coming up shortly.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I think we will see all three weddings this season (Sansa+Tyrion, Edmure+Frey girl, Joffrey+Margery). If we don't, I feel like they will be cheating everyone who had to endure what happens at the red wedding. I know Joffrey's death was therapeutic for me.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

I think we'll get

Sansa/Tyrion - ep 8

Edmure/Roslin - ep 9

Joffrey/Margaery - next season


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

cherry ghost said:


> I think we'll get
> 
> Sansa/Tyrion - ep 8
> 
> ...


I agree, but think Joffs wedding will happen earlier in the season to give time to set up Tyrion's jailbreak and, ah, deeds at the end of book 3.


----------



## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

I thought they were breaking up book 3 across seasons 3 and 4. I bet the end of season 3 will be the red wedding and we won't see Joffrey's wedding and "the deeds at the end of book 3" until next season.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I sure hope not - it would be a great end to Season 3. However I would understand them if they want to save that one up for next season - or there will only be Tyrion thing left as a major event.



cherry ghost said:


> I think we'll get
> 
> Joffrey/Margaery - next season


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

secondclaw said:


> Should we assume that season 3 will end with the second wedding? Since first one is coming up shortly.


If you're referring to the Sansa/Tyrion wedding I think you might be right. But I think Joffrey's wedding gets pushed to next season.

There are some really big pieces in Book 3 that we have yet to see, and based on current positioning, it will be a while before we get to some of them. Just reading through the book summary real quick, I came up the following major moments that we have yet to see and tried to predict when they might happen (as you can see, it looks like most of S4 is going to take place in King's Landing and at the Wall, with some checking in at Dragonstone and with the Queen of Dragons):

In the North
- Red Wedding (S3E9)
- Arya boarding the boat to Braavos (I can see this being the last scene of S3E10)

On the Wall
- Jon Snow breaking away from the wildling raiding party, getting to Castle Black ahead of them, and then leading the skeleton defense of Castle Black from the raiding party (and killing Ygritte). (I could see this happening in S3E10, but it's more likely one of the first episodes of S4)
- Sam/Gilly meeting up with Bran/Jojen/Meera/Hodor (anywhere in S4 -it's not tied into any other storyline)
- The massive wildling attack on the Wall, with Stannis' army showing up at the last minute to save the day (probably S4E9 - it's basically the equivalent of the Battle of Blackwater)

The South/King's Landing
- Davos being freed and being asked to serve as Stannis' Hand (possibly the next ep, S3E8 - he's already learning to read and write, which in the book he did after being freed, and he needs to be Hand to trigger the next event, unless they rejigger the storyline here a little)
- Davos learns of Edric Storm (now Godry) and Mellisandre's plan to sacrifice him, tells Stannis, and Stannis instead gives his own blood to the Lord of Light, asking that Joffrey, Robb, and Balon Greyjoy be killed. (S3E8)
- Tyrion/Sansa wedding (S3E10?)
- Joffrey/Margarey wedding/Joffrey assassination (early in S4, at least by S4E4)
- Sansa's escape w/Littlefinger to the Eyrie (S4E5)
- Tyrion's trial (S4E6 or thereabouts) and subsequent escape (S4E10 or thereabouts) 
- Littlefinger makes Lysa fly (S4E9?)

Across the Sea
- the siege of Mereen (probably scattered throughout most of S4)
- Daenerys discovers Jorah was betraying her (late in S4)
- Dany decides to stay in Mereen and rule it (S4E10)


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

DreadPirateRob said:


> - Tyrion/Sansa wedding (S3E10?)


From the description of S03E08:



Spoiler



King's Landing hosts a wedding, and Tyrion and Sansa spend the night together...


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Was actually referring to Joff's wedding ... it would be a good, yet shocking note to end the season with (kind of how S1 ended). Sansa's wedding has to happen before Joff's - at least if we follow the book order, so it then has to occur somewhere in the last 3 episodes if we end with Joff's wedding.

Your recap was pretty good - plenty of significant events to do next season, especially dealing with consequences of 3 weddings. I'd add one more to the Wall - to me at least - Sam's killing of the Other is significant as well.



DreadPirateRob said:


> If you're referring to the Sansa/Tyrion wedding I think you might be right. But I think Joffrey's wedding gets pushed to next season.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

secondclaw said:


> Sam's killing of the Other is significant as well.


The Slayer! I keep expecting that every time they show Sam. At least we know he has the dragonglass. But in the books, that happened before he went off with the girl, didn't it? How will his Brothers know he did it if he does it now? No one will believe him.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I keep expecting it too every time - one downside of having read the books. I guess he will eventually come upon survivors trying to make it for the Wall, and they will be attacked en route. When Sam and Gilly started shivering an episode back I though that the Others were coming. I am eager to see that scene, the way the White Walker is designed in the show is pretty good.



stellie93 said:


> The Slayer! I keep expecting that every time they show Sam. At least we know he has the dragonglass. But in the books, that happened before he went off with the girl, didn't it? How will his Brothers know he did it if he does it now? No one will believe him.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> - Arya boarding the boat to Braavos (I can see this being the last scene of S3E10)


That'll be Season 4


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Really nice recap! Thanks.


DreadPirateRob said:


> - Tyrion's trial (S4E6 or thereabouts) and subsequent escape (S4E10 or thereabouts)


Isn't there a VERY significant event surrounding Tyrion's escape?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

astrohip said:


> Isn't there a VERY significant event surrounding Tyrion's escape?


Who gives a sht?


----------



## Rickvz (Sep 5, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Who gives a sht?


I see what you did there. 

I hate that there will be two weeks between this week's episode and the next one.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Events from Book 4


Spoiler



- Littlefinger makes Lysa fly (S4E9?)
- Tyrion's trial (S4E6 or thereabouts) and subsequent escape (S4E10 or thereabouts)


Both those items should be at the finale of season 4. The first explains who put _most_ of this chaos into motion, the second is big enough because of how many people love Tyrion.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

robojerk said:


> Events from *Book 4*
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I think you mean Season 4.



Rickvz said:


> I hate that there will be two weeks between this week's episode and the next one.


What? WHAT?


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

astrohip said:


> I think you mean Season 4.
> 
> What? WHAT?


Memorial Day weekend. Last season, the Blackwater ep was the least watched show of that season for that very reason. They are smart to wait to show the RW until after the holiday weekend.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

DreadPirateRob said:


> If you're referring to the Sansa/Tyrion wedding I think you might be right. But I think Joffrey's wedding gets pushed to next season.
> 
> There are some really big pieces in Book 3 that we have yet to see, and based on current positioning, it will be a while before we get to some of them. Just reading through the book summary real quick, I came up the following major moments that we have yet to see and tried to predict when they might happen (as you can see, it looks like most of S4 is going to take place in King's Landing and at the Wall, with some checking in at Dragonstone and with the Queen of Dragons):
> 
> ...


First off, excellent work.

Here is what I think we will see:

This season
In the North
- Red Wedding 
On the Wall
- Jon Snow breaking away from the wildling raiding party
- Sam/Gilly meeting up with Bran/Jojen/Meera/Hodor - I agree this one exists a little outside the other timelines, so it could be this season or next - remember though that Sam has yet to run into Cold Hands, so I think we will see Sam with Cold Hands this season and the meetup next season

The South/King's Landing
- Davos being freed and being asked to serve as Stannis' Hand (possibly the next ep, S3E8 - he's already learning to read and write, which in the book he did after being freed, and he needs to be Hand to trigger the next event, unless they rejigger the storyline here a little)
- Davos learns of Edric Storm (now Godry) and Mellisandre's plan to sacrifice him, tells Stannis, and Stannis instead gives his own blood to the Lord of Light, asking that Joffrey, Robb, and Balon Greyjoy be killed. (S3E8)
- Tyrion/Sansa wedding 
- Joffrey/Margarey wedding/Joffrey assassination - Although I see the case for this being early next season
Across the Sea
I think this season will end with the sack of Yunkai
Meereen will likely encompass all of Danys story next season

Next Season

In the North
- Arya boarding the boat to Braavos

On the Wall
- Jon Snow leading the skeleton defense of Castle Black from the raiding party (and killing Ygritte). 
- The massive wildling attack on the Wall, with Stannis' army showing up at the last minute to save the day (probably S4E9 - it's basically the equivalent of the Battle of Blackwater)

The South/King's Landing
- Sansa's escape w/Littlefinger to the Eyrie 
- Tyrion's trial and subsequent escape 
- Littlefinger makes Lysa fly

Across the Sea
- the siege of Mereen 
- Daenerys discovers Jorah was betraying her 
- Dany decides to stay in Mereen and rule it


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

john4200 said:


> Who gives a sht?


Heh. Why are we not mentioning this event? It's in book 3 ...

I really think we'll see Joffrey's death next season, not this one.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jehma said:


> Heh. Why are we not mentioning this event? It's in book 3 ...
> 
> I really think we'll see Joffrey's death next season, not this one.


Since that event is directly tied to Tyrion's jail break, I think we can assume it will occur after his trial and jailbreak. 

I love the final line of that chapter.

"...the oft repeated jape about his father was just another lie, Lord Tywin Lannister in the end did not **** gold".


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> On the Wall
> - Jon Snow breaking away from the wildling raiding party
> - Sam/Gilly meeting up with Bran/Jojen/Meera/Hodor - I agree this one exists a little outside the other timelines, so it could be this season or next - remember though that Sam has yet to run into Cold Hands, so I think we will see Sam with Cold Hands this season and the meetup next season


I hope they include just how close Bran/Jojen/Meera/Hodor get to John and Summer being part of John breaking away.

At some point they'll also have to show Osha/Rickon separate from Bran/Jojen/Meera/Hodor


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> Since that event is directly tied to Tyrion's jail break, I think we can assume it will occur after his trial and jailbreak.
> 
> I love the final line of that chapter.
> 
> "...the oft repeated jape about his father was just another lie, Lord Tywin Lannister in the end did not **** gold".


Yeah, yeah, what I meant was that it sounded like everyone was avoiding mentioning or for this season or next for some reason I couldn't understand.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

jehma said:


> Heh. Why are we not mentioning this event? It's in book 3 ...


No particular reason, just backed up I guess...


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

I'm not sure at this point how much impact the Red Wedding is going to have. They have done very little work towards making Robb sympathetic. Also - I'm not sure the viewer is really going to clue in on the fact that Bolton has been planning this all along. There is just so much setup in the book, so much work done to go into the details of Robbs men, the Lords surrounding him, etc. None of that happened in the show. The Red Wedding was the absolute annihilation of every leader the North had. Its impact in the books is so central to the entire series that I would have expected they would have built the whole season around it. 

Also - consider me worried about this Robb having a kid thing. I have no idea what they are up to here, but its a significant deviation from the books. I think this is one of those situations where GRRM thought he was being obvious in the books that Jeyne (Talisa now) was a spy, but it just wasn't obvious. Now he plans to make it REALLY obvious. This has happened before, look at Loras and his sexual preference. In the books, its very subtle and, in fact, most readers completely missed it.

Just a note for those of you who have only read through book three. The above about Jeyne/Talisa being a spy is not confirmed ANYWHERE in the books. So I'm not spoiling anything. Its just a theory that floats around, albeit one with some good merit. My guess is that all this writing they have Talisa doing and the pregnancy thing is just them getting ready to pull the rug out. Just a guess though.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mostman said:


> This has happened before, look at Loras and his sexual preference. In the books, its very subtle and, in fact, most readers completely missed it.


Seriously? I'd never heard of anybody missing it until these threads. I didn't find it even remotely subtle...the gay insults people were throwing at him made me look at his relationship with Loras in that light, and there was just no doubt.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Seriously? I'd never heard of anybody missing it until these threads. I didn't find it even remotely subtle...the gay insults people were throwing at him made me look at his relationship with Loras in that light, and there was just no doubt.


I didn't miss it either  But if you go and read forums like towerofthehand.com - the debate was quite significant and heated. Not unlike many of our Lost threads 

Same thing with Theons... uhh... manhood. Hinted at, but never confirmed. Until the TV show that is.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

I will freely admit I missed it. I think i just wasn't paying attention to Loras, and glossed over the details.



Rob Helmerichs said:


> Seriously? I'd never heard of anybody missing it until these threads. I didn't find it even remotely subtle...the gay insults people were throwing at him made me look at his relationship with Loras in that light, and there was just no doubt.


I agree actually, and not only that but Robb has already stated a number of times how he won every battle but is losing the war. He already knows he's on a precipice. On Jeyne being a spy- interesting theory, but I never got that impression from the books. I suppose if it really is the case, the show will drive the point across, like it did with Loras.



mostman said:


> I'm not sure at this point how much impact the Red Wedding is going to have. They have done very little work towards making Robb sympathetic.


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

On the Talisa/Jeyne spy theories, a _very _interesting take.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

The idea of Jeyne being a spy is news to me. The reason for her not going to the wedding--that it would remind Frey of Robb's betrayal--was sound. She is still alive later on, which might be suspicious. You'd think they would have killed her. But she was never pregnant in the book. What's the point of her getting pregnant now? If she's a spy, her orders would be not to get pregnant, I would think. Maybe she realized that if she had a son she could claim Winterfell?


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I think the reason she's pregnant now in the show is that she's going to die at the Red Wedding along with Rob and his mother. Extra heart-wrenching that way.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Wow. I had never considered that Jeyne (or Talisa) might be a spy. That YT video above makes a pretty good case for Talisa being a spy, but she's an entirely different character than Jeyne, and the circumstances surrounding Robb's cute-meet with Jeyne are far different, enough to where the idea that she was a spy seems a stretch.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> The idea of Jeyne being a spy is news to me. The reason for her not going to the wedding--that it would remind Frey of Robb's betrayal--was sound. She is still alive later on, which might be suspicious. You'd think they would have killed her. But she was never pregnant in the book. What's the point of her getting pregnant now? If she's a spy, her orders would be not to get pregnant, I would think. Maybe she realized that if she had a son she could claim Winterfell?


How far have you read into the series? Some of your questions are answered later on. Although, if you missed it, I wouldn't be surprised. Its seriously subtle stuff.



Spoiler



In the books (I forget which one to be honest) - her mom meets with Jamie and she talks about how she did all she was asked of her and that she hopes Tywin helps her family out. She also states that she gave Jeyne moon tea to keep her from having a baby. In the books, it seems like Jeyne is an unwilling pawn in her mothers schemes and that he mother _may_ have plotted against Robb. Like I said though, its subtle. I think GRRM might have just told the show runners "listen, her mom was a Lannister agent, obviously!" And they decided to just cut to the chase and leave the mother out - making Talisa a straight up spy. We will know by the end of the season for sure.

Edit - it was Feast. Also - both mother and daughter were pardoned.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> I think the reason she's pregnant now in the show is that she's going to die at the Red Wedding along with Rob and his mother. Extra heart-wrenching that way.


Which is interesting in its own sense because she lives in the books and is guarded by soldiers. This lead to a pretty wide belief that she WAS pregnant all along and the Lannisters were dealing with it in some way. So, could be a few things:

1) GRRM intended for her to be pregnant all along and the show is just spoiling future book plot lines.
2) GRRM has told the show runners that she doesn't matter in the books anymore and they should feel free to kill her off. Making her pregnant adds some human drama.
3) She is a spy (read my spoilers above if you've read ahead) and GRRM is trying to fix the fact that nobody figured it out.

For anyone that wants to REALLY go down the rabbit hole here - if you've read all the books (mostly Feast) - check this out:

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2010/08/02_heir_to_the_north/index.html

That's what ambiguity in your writing creates! People writing thesis level stuff on blogs. Ha!


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

robojerk said:


> Events from Book 4
> Littlefinger makes Lysa fly (S4E9?)
> - Tyrion's trial (S4E6 or thereabouts) and subsequent escape (S4E10 or thereabouts)
> Both those items should be at the finale of season 4. The first explains who put _most_ of this chaos into motion, the second is big enough because of how many people love Tyrion.


I removed the spoiler tags in your post because both of those events take place in Book 3 (Lysa flying takes place in the last Sansa chapter and Tyrion's escape happens in the last Tyrion chapter, both of which are at/near the end of Book 3) and this thread clearly contemplates Book 3 spoilers.

I considered putting Tyrion's trial at the end of S4, but ultimately decided against it. As I mentioned, the Battle at the Wall is the closest thing to the Battle of Blackwater that we've seen in the books, and the TV show devoted an entire episode to it. I can see that happening again.

And since Tyrion's trial includes the duel, Oberyn losing, Tyrion being jailed for a bit, and then the escape, I think the trial happens earlier in the season to give the show enough time to breathe between it and the Battle at the Wall. Tyrion's escape is the type of "moving the pieces and setting the stage" that the show has done in both of the season finales that we've seen thus far.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

mostman said:


> I'm not sure at this point how much impact the Red Wedding is going to have. They have done very little work towards making Robb sympathetic.


I don't think they need to do anything to make Robb sympathetic - he's already sympathetic. He's the son of one of the only true honorable men in Westeros, who was unjustly executed for trying to do the right thing. He is now trying to avenge his father, and in the process has shown himself to be just as honorable (tragically so) as his father. At this point in the story he's the only person that you can really root for.

As I said earlier, I think the Red Wedding is going to blow people's minds.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

DreadPirateRob said:


> I don't think they need to do anything to make Robb sympathetic - he's already sympathetic. He's the son of one of the only true honorable men in Westeros, who was unjustly executed for trying to do the right thing. He is now trying to avenge his father, and in the process has shown himself to be just as honorable (tragically so) as his father. At this point in the story he's the only person that you can really root for.
> 
> As I said earlier, I think the Red Wedding is going to blow people's minds.


Are people really rooting for him though? I have seen nothing that makes him the hero figure here. All I've seen the show do is show his failures and make him look ill fit for the job. I think the Red Wedding will amaze people that a bunch of the cast will be dead. I also think that the reaction will be "Well sure - he is an idiot." This was NOT the case in the books. You almost, just maybe, barely, believed that he had a chance to kick some Lannister ass.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> First off, excellent work.
> 
> Here is what I think we will see:
> 
> ...


I struggled with this one maybe the most. I think you're right that ultimately they will push this to next season, but how long into it? I guess they can have Arya and the Hound wander aimlessly in the forest for awhile. But otherwise there's very little left in that part of the story.

But once Arya leaves for Braavos, her story for Book 3 is over, so I wonder if they won't accelerate some of her timeline from Book 4 into the latter half of S4 just to make it so that we won't see Arya for so long.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

Not that people are rooting for him so much as I think many expect he will win in the end, much as they made the same mistaken assumption about Ned in season 1.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> Not that people are rooting for him so much as I think many expect he will win in the end, much as they made the same mistaken assumption about Ned in season 1.


That I can agree with. "I see what's going on here - this guy is eventually going to win. The good guy always wins..."

In that case - har har!


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

mostman said:


> That I can agree with. "I see what's going on here - this guy is eventually going to win. The good guy always wins..."
> 
> In that case - har har!


For me it was more like I thought the story was about the Stark family and Winterfell. After Ned was killed I thought it was about the younger generation of Starks. After the Red Wedding I didn't know what to think anymore.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

mostman said:


> For anyone that wants to REALLY go down the rabbit hole here - if you've read all the books (mostly Feast) - check this out:


What is Feast?

I'm rereading books 4 and 5 now, so I'll be on the lookout for this stuff. I think I missed it first time through.

It seems like a stretch to think that Tywin sat in Kings Landing and knew where Robb was and sent a girl out there probably just to sleep with him and spy, and then he went way out there and married her. I guess her mother could have pushed her to spy and take the moon tea, but why wouldn't she want her to give birth to the heir to Winterfel? I guess if she didn't think they could protect her from the Lannisters?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

stellie93 said:


> What is Feast?


A _Feast_ For Crows - Book 4, that you're apparently re-reading right now.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

DreadPirateRob said:


> A _Feast_ For Crows - Book 4, that you're apparently re-reading right now.


Oh, yeah, I never pay any attention to the titles.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

mostman said:


> Are people really rooting for him though? I have seen nothing that makes him the hero figure here. All I've seen the show do is show his failures and make him look ill fit for the job. I think the Red Wedding will amaze people that a bunch of the cast will be dead.  I also think that the reaction will be "Well sure - he is an idiot." This was NOT the case in the books. You almost, just maybe, barely, believed that he had a chance to kick some Lannister ass.


I agree with you. From a TV show perspective I think more people are "rooting" for Jaime Lannister right now then are "rooting" for Robb Stark. I just don't see the emotional reaction to the Red Wedding from television viewers vs what the book readers had.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

It comes down to this. There are three armies left right now. The Lannister force, The Stannis force, and the Stark force. Of those three, the audience expects (hopes) that the Starks will out on top. It's just natural, they are the group the audience is led to most sympathize with. The Lannisters are the bad guys and who gives a f*** about Stannis.

Then suddenly and one horrible move the entire army is wiped out.



That means the war will be between Stannis who no one cares for and the Lannisters, who everyone thinks of as evil.

If only there was another army out there they could root for though...

You know, and dragons.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

jehma said:


> For me it was more like I thought the story was about the Stark family and Winterfell. After Ned was killed I thought it was about the younger generation of Starks. After the Red Wedding I didn't know what to think anymore.


I am still of the belief that the entire series is basically about Jon Snow. Lots of reasons and theories and over analysis to get me to that point, but it all makes sense. Sort of


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

mostman said:


> I am still of the belief that the entire series is basically about Jon Snow. Lots of reasons and theories and over analysis to get me to that point, but it all makes sense. Sort of


And Dany. Well,
(spoiler through end of published books) 


Spoiler



some Targaryen or another ....


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

mostman said:


> I am still of the belief that the entire series is basically about Jon Snow. Lots of reasons and theories and over analysis to get me to that point, but it all makes sense. Sort of


Of course, at the end of book 5...



Spoiler



Jon Snow apparently dies. Although I think most people assume he will be resurrected somehow. Or maybe only mostly dead.


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

jehma said:


> And Dany. Well,
> (spoiler through end of published books)
> 
> 
> ...


That would be my bet.


----------



## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

From this article, the producers are talking about ending the show after seven seasons. If season 3 and 4 are book three, then season 5 would be book 4, season 6 would be book 5 then they would wrap up the as of yet unwritten books 6 and 7 in the last season. It seems like it would be incredibly rushed at the end.

http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/game-of-thrones-producer-discusses-series-end-20130517


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

I would rather season 5 be books 4 & 5 (since there is a lot of boring stuff there that should be eliminated), then hopefully books 6 & 7 pick up the pace again and each gets its own season.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

john4200 said:


> I would rather season 5 be books 4 & 5 (since there is a lot of boring stuff there that should be eliminated), then hopefully books 6 & 7 pick up the pace again and each gets its own season.


I'm just hoping that the writing of the books picks up the pace again. It's so easy to get excited about everything that is happening in the series and what's happened in the books then I remember how freaking long he has taken to get out the last two books (which were supposed to be one book) and think: "Doom."


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

jehma said:


> And Dany. Well,
> (spoiler through end of published books)
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Jon Snow and "some Targaryen" is redundant.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Snow and "some Targaryen" is redundant.





Spoiler



Good point


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

jehma said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Good point





Spoiler



That isn't fact is it? Isn't it just speculation?



tk


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

pendragn said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Correct.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

jehma said:


> Correct.


But some excellent speculation!

Also - as for which season maps to which book - remember that books 4 and 5 were originally one single book GRRM was forced to edit down. In fact, much of the first half of Dance (book 5) overlaps with Feast (book 4). So, in theory, you could combine them into a single season. Heck, you can combine those books into about 4 episodes!


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

I wonder if the whole Ironborn substory with Theon's sister and crazy uncle will be edited out.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

heySkippy said:


> I wonder if the whole Ironborn substory with Theon's sister and crazy uncle will be edited out.


Sure hope so. Actually I wish HBO completely dropped the iron born (including Theon). What a boring bunch.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

mostman said:


> Heck, you can combine those books into about 4 episodes!


Heh, one can only hope.

Martin hasn't quite made it into Robert Jordan territory, but he gets close at times.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

The Iron Born seem like such a weird bunch.


Spoiler



I honestly found their process for picking a king stupid considering they talk up paying the iron price for everything.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So you don't think that in book 5


Spoiler



that horn that that ironborn guy is supposed to blow will be a big plot point? If I'm even remembering it right--just trying to think what difference it would make if they left them out. Same with several others who are trying to unite with Danny.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

stellie93 said:


> So you don't think that in book 5
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



Technically anyone else can find and blow the horn. Can even get someone with Stannis or Salladhor Saan do it. Of course we don't really know what JRRM is planning for them.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

I am wondering if non-book readers are picking up on how much the are pushing the Tully wedding? As it looks on TV, all you have is a minor character (Edmund Tully) marrying a unknown character. 

There must be something of significance coming.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Arya meets up with her mother and brother and they all live happily ever after?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

I find it amusing when the non book readers complain about the 'minor plot lines'. The minor plot lines are usually the ones where the best WTF moments come in. For instance, take the Gendry/Melisandre thread. We book readers know the significance of that thread but to non book readers it is label as filler. Two weeks until the big wedding!


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Haven't they learned that the minor plot lines are important because the major ones get killed off? Did Ned Stark teach them nothing?


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> Haven't they learned that the minor plot lines are important because the major ones get killed off? Did Ned Stark teach them nothing?


You know nothing, non book readers!


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

TriBruin said:


> I am wondering if non-book readers are picking up on how much the are pushing the Tully wedding? As it looks on TV, all you have is a minor character (Edmund Tully) marrying a unknown character.
> 
> There must be something of significance coming.


When I read Book 3 I had no frakking idea what was coming insofar as the Red Wedding. The whole campaign in the Riverlands area was so drawn out that it just seemed like another movement of a pawn. Plus, when you're predisposed to root for Robb, you start to think this is his way to victory.

Oops.


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> When I read Book 3 I had no frakking idea what was coming insofar as the Red Wedding. The whole campaign in the Riverlands area was so drawn out that it just seemed like another movement of a pawn. Plus, when you're predisposed to root for Robb, you start to think this is his way to victory.
> 
> Oops.


Indeed. Nobody kills off the main character. And nobody is going to do that twice! How many times does a reader have to take stock and say "Who's left to root for?"


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jakerock said:


> Indeed. Nobody kills off the main character. And nobody is going to do that twice! How many times does a reader have to take stock and say "Who's left to root for?"


I finally settled on Jon Snow and Daenerys.



Spoiler



Got screwed on that one, too.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

TriBruin said:


> I am wondering if non-book readers are picking up on how much the are pushing the Tully wedding? As it looks on TV, all you have is a minor character (Edmund Tully) marrying a unknown character.
> 
> There must be something of significance coming.


I just had lunch with a buddy of mine that has only read the first two books and is watching the show. He brought up that it felt like something big was going to happen at that wedding.

tk


----------



## jakerock (Dec 9, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> I finally settled on Jon Snow and Daenerys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You and me both.


Spoiler



Though maybe that plot line isn't really dead. Maybe?


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So Melissandre killed 1 guy by sleeping with Stannis--did she use his blood or just the "baby?" Then he was wiped out and no good to her any more. So is Gendry wiped out times 3? It doesn't seem like a big deal to just take a little blood and kill 3 people. We should be able to kill off half of King's Landing. 

Plus we know the causes of 2 of the deaths--did the Freys betray Robb because of the Red God? Balon Greyjoy did seem a little odd. 

Denario is about like I pictured him. Since it's HBO, she's probably going to sleep with him right away.


----------



## pendragn (Jan 21, 2001)

stellie93 said:


> Denario is about like I pictured him. Since it's HBO, she's probably going to sleep with him right away.


For easier searching it's "Daario Naharis." 

tk


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

jakerock said:


> You and me both.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...





Spoiler



I don't think it is either, but I would not be surprised if that was the last Jon Snow chapter we are ever treated to.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Shaunnick said:


> I finally settled on Jon Snow and Daenerys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right now I root for those two, but my long term rooting interest is in Arya. I really want a series of scenes of a 15-year old (or so) Arya exacting her revents Inigo Montoya-style (although, sadly, she has already been robbed of vengeance on a few of her would-be victims).


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Shaunnick said:


> I finally settled on Jon Snow and Daenerys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



A priestess of the Red God is nearby. Just sayin'.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

JETarpon said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> A priestess of the Red God is nearby. Just sayin'.


Egggggggggggszactly.


----------



## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

it has been awhile since reading the books, after yesterday's episode, I kept thinking something bigger was going to happen.

Didn't


Spoiler



Joffery die at Tyrion's wedding?



Or am I remembering that wrong?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

mrpope said:


> it has been awhile since reading the books, after yesterday's episode, I kept thinking something bigger was going to happen.
> 
> Didn't
> 
> ...


Wrong wedding.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

Spoiler



Joffrey dies at his wedding. In the book he hired 2 dwarves to perform at Tyrion's wedding.


----------



## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

Thats right. Thanks.Getting old sucks..


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

We only need to hide things for books four and five. No need to trash up the thread for the book that is covered in the title.


----------



## mrpope (Jan 13, 2006)

Just did it to be careful. Like i said, I'm getting old and all the books have run together on me.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

DavidTigerFan said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Joffrey dies at his wedding. In the book he hired 2 dwarves to perform at Tyrion's wedding.


Weren't the two dwarves performing at Joff's wedding?
Though I imagine show producers could scrap them anyway.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

secondclaw said:


> Weren't the two dwarves performing at Joff's wedding?
> Though I imagine show producers could scrap them anyway.


Later books spoiler



Spoiler



They become important later on. That's where Tyrion meets Penny. 
One of my least favorite plot lines.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

jehma said:


> Later books spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



Yea, I and I hope they scrap that plot line ... I also don't think Penny is that important (I read all the books, and don't think removing Penny and the pig is a big deal).


----------



## Rosincrans (May 4, 2006)

secondclaw said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I and I hope they scrap that plot line ... I also don't think Penny is that important (I read all the books, and don't think removing Penny and the pig is a big deal).





Spoiler



I don't remember which book it was revealed in, but even though Joffrey hired the dwarfs, Littlefinger was encouraging him in order to help frame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder. I think that's pretty significant and I'd hate to see that removed. Also, I think it's good to see what becomes of dwarves without Lannister money to help understand why Tyrion puts up with all he does


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

secondclaw said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I and I hope they scrap that plot line ... I also don't think Penny is that important (I read all the books, and don't think removing Penny and the pig is a big deal).





Spoiler



But Penny is still with Tyrion when book 5 ends, so how do we know she's not important? On Ap. 1 there was a joke article about a replacement for Tyrion--maybe they were casting him for Joffrey's wedding.

I really hated to see Tyrion leave King's Landing. It's hard to imagine the rest of his story through book 5 being that good on TV, but we'll see.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I really hated to see Tyrion leave King's Landing. It's hard to imagine the rest of his story through book 5 being that good on TV, but we'll see.


They'll find a way. He's too important to the show.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

So...

How many of our non book reader brethren will be P.O.'ed tonight?



I am in the mood for an exciting wedding. My wife has no idea. I have her thinking Arya will meet up with Catelyn and Robb at the twins. 

How cruel am I?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> How cruel am I?


You are an evil bastard.

I like you.

And yes, this is what seems to have become the typical Episode 9...the one that shocks everybody who hasn't read the books.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

Is it tonight? Damn ... the episode thread will be busy.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

Just saw this on FB. Made me laugh.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Interesting that Robb's wife's character has such a different (err... shortened) arc in the TV show. Trying to think what will be the next episode. They won't have the king's wedding, for sure.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

mostman said:


> Which is interesting in its own sense because she lives in the books and is guarded by soldiers. This lead to a pretty wide belief that she WAS pregnant all along and the Lannisters were dealing with it in some way. So, could be a few things:
> 
> 1) GRRM intended for her to be pregnant all along and the show is just spoiling future book plot lines.
> 2) GRRM has told the show runners that she doesn't matter in the books anymore and they should feel free to kill her off. Making her pregnant adds some human drama.
> 3) She is a spy (read my spoilers above if you've read ahead) and GRRM is trying to fix the fact that nobody figured it out.


Door number TWO for the WIN! Guess we won't be seeing her in future books...

I would also like to add - that having the whole pregnant story line added a lot to the drama of the wedding. When that Frey scumbag knifed her in the stomach fifty times - I was entirely enraged. Kudos to the show runners for understanding what plays well on TV and what needed to be added.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> So...
> 
> How many of our non book reader brethren will be P.O.'ed tonight?
> 
> ...


Still married? Or did you just get the couch for the night?


----------



## Jstkiddn (Oct 15, 2003)

mostman said:


> Still married? Or did you just get the couch for the night?


You know the scene where the Hound whacks Arya over the head? I'm envisioning something along those lines.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

She said to me, "You said Arya would make it to where they (Catelyn and Robb) were at!"

I said, "She did. She was just too late."

There was a beat of open jawed anger and then, acceptance. I told her she would see people die that she would not want to. She just didn't know it would have been last night. All's well.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

The Blackfish was at the wedding? How will he escape back to Riverrun?


----------



## vertigo235 (Oct 27, 2000)

heySkippy said:


> The Blackfish was at the wedding? How will he escape back to Riverrun?


He went to go find a tree to pee on, so I assume he will escape.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Twitter outrage: RedWeddingTears

And from Peter Dinklage:

Peter Dinklage ‏@Mrpeterdinklage 5h
"If You Think This Has A Happy Ending, You Haven't Been Paying Attention." #GameOfThrones #RainsOfCastamere


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

I wonder what they'll do about [future book spoilers]


Spoiler



Caitlyn's return, 2-3 seasons from now. Will they just cancel it? Move it forward? Or hope that the actor will be available?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder what they'll do about [future book spoilers]
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


I hope they have already worked it out with her. I would imagine that next season we are going to see stuff from books three four and five, as from here on out things really start to get crazy timeline wise. So maybe we will see some of her next season.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I wonder what they'll do about [future book spoilers]
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Some of that is in the Epilogue of Book 3.



Spoiler



I think we might see her resurrection as early as next week. That would enable them to cut loose the actor that plays Beric Dondarrion and have her in season 4.


----------



## mostman (Jul 16, 2000)

jehma said:


> Twitter outrage: RedWeddingTears
> 
> And from Peter Dinklage:
> 
> ...


Well... I guess that answers my question about how this would impact non book readers. Wow was I wrong! Some of those are just awesome.


----------



## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

It was mentioned in the show thread, but has anyone seen Photoshop Girl online? I am afraid she might be planning a slow painful death for GRRM and the show runners right now. 

(But, just wait until they show Joeffrey's wedding next season. She will probably be jumping for joy!)


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Her profile says she posted in a supernatural thread this morning. Maybe we should send search parties to be sure!


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

From a poster in the episode thread:



> Prediction: Arya will now seek out Jalen Dahakar (I hope I got this right, the super assassin) and will spend the next few years learning that trade.


Wow, that is a heck of a good guess. Was this foreshadowed in the episodes somehow?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

He gave her the coin and the words in the S2 finale. She said, 'nope, gots to go find me mum.'

Now that she has no mum, maybe she will go all super assassin.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> Wow, that is a heck of a good guess. Was this foreshadowed in the episodes somehow?


She talked about him as somebody who's a better killer than the Hound, and then promised to kill the Hound. So that's a pretty good hint of what's on her mind...

I wouldn't put it past Martin to have her kill him in exactly the way she promised, but in a context where it's the last thing she wants to do.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

100 best tweets about last night's Game of Thrones


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

I saw this on a friend's FB wall this morning, and for the life of me can't figure out what he's talking about:



> In the books there is one big difference in the Red Wedding from last night. It changes the entire future of the story.


The only difference from the books that I can recall off-hand is Talisa being at the wedding... but since she's an entirely different character than Jeyne, and Jeyne hasn't been seen or heard from since, to claim that it changes "the entire future of the story" is crazy.

Or am I missing something?


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

The blackfish was at the wedding too, in the books he started at Riverrun. Granted, he left to water a tree so he might live.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Yeah, I thought of Blackfish, but since they made a point to call out that he was going to go take a piss, and we didn't see him afterward, I'm presuming he lives.

But if you've read through Book 5, has he really been *that* big of a character? Not to me. Either way, that's not "changing the entire future of the story".


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

The only real differences I noticed at the Red Wedding was the Blackfish being there (and leaving in the nick of time?) and I think Cat killed Frey's cousin or something in the book, not his wife. The latter certainly does not seem significant.

If the Blackfish died at the wedding... [minor spoiler from Feast for Crows]



Spoiler



then he would not be besieged at Riverrun by Jaime in later books. I suppose they could invent some other character to lead the defense of Riverrun.



I guess Talisa dying and Jeyne not being at the wedding and surviving could be considered a difference, but since they are quite different characters, and Jeyne has not been important in the books, I do not see that as significant.


----------



## su719 (Apr 5, 2004)

I guess Talisa dying and Jeyne not being at the wedding and surviving could be considered a difference, but since they are quite different characters, and Jeyne has not been important in the books, I do not see that as significant.[/QUOTE]



Spoiler



I guess with Talisa dying there is no Stark heir with Jeyne still being alive since they confirmed Talisa was pregnant in the show.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

My favorite tweets:



> You know why the end credits had no music? The sound of your sobbing and sniffling is the music.





> Folks watching #gameofthrones who didn't read the books: remember when your really nerdy friend was super sad 13 years ago? This is why!


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Me to my condo building's cleaning lady (an avid GoT watcher) as I left this morning: "Weddings always make me cry."


----------



## Mr. Soze (Nov 2, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Me to my condo building's cleaning lady (an avid GoT watcher) as I left this morning: "Weddings always make me cry."


And you called me a monster!


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

After clarifying, and someone else chiming in, I think that guy was talking about Jeyne. But it's also clear that he doesn't realize that Jeyne doesn't exist on the show. So imagine trying to clarify that, without spoiling it for everyone who hasn't read the books.

This is what I ended up writing:



me on someone else's FB wall said:


> I think maybe you guys haven't realized that one of the main characters who was killed last night doesn't exist in the book - although the book has a *similar* character, the two (very similar) characters have different names, come from different families, and entered the story in very different ways. So while each of these (very similar) characters had the same relationship to another of the main characters, they are, in fact, completely different characters. And I believe that Martin had the show create this new character because there was so much unfounded speculation and focus on a very minor character in the books, and he thought it would be easier to just create - and kill off - a new one to end that speculation.
> 
> And man, I wish everyone would read the books so that I wouldn't have to write so obtusely.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

On Grantland today I saw this gif that was captioned "How TV Game of Thrones fans felt last night vs. how book Game of Thrones fans felt last night"


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I love the gif, but after I got over my glee about finally getting to the RW, I was still shaken by the episode.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Since at the end of book 5, the Blackfish


Spoiler



has disappeared, it's possible he does have a big role in the future.


I assume he has escaped in the confusion. :up: At least somebody did.

I thought Walder Frey seemed really spry in this episode. Not nearly as old and decrepit as in the books or even the first time we saw him on the show. He portrayed him well, though. In the books Cat took his mentally challenged son who he seemed to actually have a little feeling for. Threatening a wife is just stupid.

The whole Red Wedding seemed really scaled down, but I guess that was just for production's sake. Non book readers seemed to be properly impressed. 

I feel so sorry for Jorah--especially since he's so much better looking here than in the books. Why would Dany want Dario instead of him. Why, why, why.....


----------



## audioscience (Feb 10, 2005)

I almost completely forgot about:



Spoiler



The fact that Catalyn Stark comes back! I was thinking she's all done after last night, but oh boy, can't wait for her to reappear and see what the TV-only people think.


----------



## Unbeliever (Feb 3, 2001)

This particular thread is another support in the premise that Spoilers don't spoil anything.

--Carlos V.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

So Baylon Greyjoy still has to die. I'm trying to remember how it happened in the book. As I recall we didn't actually "witness" it, we just heard the news about it. Freak wind that blew him off a bridge, wasn't it?


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

JETarpon said:


> So Baylon Greyjoy still has to die. I'm trying to remember how it happened in the book. As I recall we didn't actually "witness" it, we just heard the news about it. Freak wind that blew him off a bridge, wasn't it?


All we know is that he died crossing a bridge during a storm at his castle in Pyke.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Now that one sounds like it could have been magical, unlike the other 2.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I just about busted a gut laughing at those Red Wedding tweets (the first list, not the 100 best). One guy says "I literally died". I quickly checked to see if his handle was "Robb Stark", but no. It was funny anyway.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

https://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh

Arya's reaction to the Red Wedding.


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

JETarpon said:


> https://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh


Perhaps a description? I don't normally click on bare links.


----------



## Waldorf (Oct 4, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Perhaps a description? I don't normally click on bare links.


Okay... Vine is like twitter, but with video. I think they're ~6 seconds and loop? Anyhoo, this link is directly to a Vine from Maisie Williams who plays Arya on the TV show and is quite cute. 

Note: You may need to click the speaker in the upper left corner to un-mute as mine was muted by default.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

I finally figured out why the story was changed from the book and introduced Talisa and made her pregnant before being killed at the Red Wedding.

George RR Martin had so much fun killing Ned Stark the first time, he wanted to do it again!


----------



## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Waldorf said:


> Okay... Vine is like twitter, but with video. I think they're ~6 seconds and loop? Anyhoo, this link is directly to a Vine from Maisie Williams who plays Arya on the TV show and is quite cute.
> 
> Note: You may need to click the speaker in the upper left corner to un-mute as mine was muted by default.


Thanks.:up:


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

JETarpon said:


> https://vine.co/v/b3XZMHmxzxh
> 
> Arya's reaction to the Red Wedding.


Wow, I never knew she was a southerner. Her accent on the show is totally convincing.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)




----------



## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

So... who films themselves watching TV? How did they get all those reactions? Some of them are pretty cool to watch, but still, are people just recording themselves all the time now?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

People who had read the book were recording their friends and family who had not.


----------



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

One thing I find missing from the show is the rain. IIRC the books had lots of rain and storms happening from the oncoming Winter.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

They did mention that Rob was late getting to the Twins because of rain, I think. I remember a section in the book where everyone was wandering around in a cold rain--Arya, Rob, and Jamie and Brienne. 

Rewatching today, I noticed in the previews that Rob said Walder Frey has this huge army--the only one that could take Casterly Rock. This was all kind of weird compared to the book. While there were lots of Frey soldiers, I never got the impression that they were very good. And I thought the reason Rob needed them was more to get back north and take back Deepwood Motte and the other places the Greyjoys had taken. He never mentioned trying to take Casterley Rock in the book, did he? I'm not sure why they needed to change that.


----------



## bluntspoon (Aug 29, 2003)

From memory I thought it was more about how strategically located the twins were and how the bridge was the only real crossing for hundreds of miles. The twins had not been taken by force in anyone's memory and they needed passage to be able to continue the war.


----------



## secondclaw (Oct 3, 2004)

bluntspoon said:


> From memory I thought it was more about how strategically located the twins were and how the bridge was the only real crossing for hundreds of miles. The twins had not been taken by force in anyone's memory and they needed passage to be able to continue the war.


I remember Frey sending a portion of his army (300 men???) with Robb after their initial passage, so the House had some soldiers, and it seems in their kind of war more soldiers is always better. Plus, one of Walder's sons fought alongside Robb, and died I think ... but I may be mis-remembering - I read this book a while ago.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

There are lots of Freys, of course, but I thought while a few of them are pretty good soldiers, most of them are idiots. I don't know how many banner men they have. And then some of them are married to better families. One is married to Tywin's sister, I think. But she's the brains of that family. 

It just seemed like the show made them seem like this huge conquering family that you would need on your side to take Casterley Rock. I think it's more like they are the biggest family not really committed to anyone at this point. He's not going to get Stannis, or Dorne, or Tyrells to go with him, so he's stuck with Freys. And you don't need to cross the Twins to get there, do you?


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

The Freys are bannermen to the Tullys, as I recall. They are not a major house.

They needed to cross the twins when they went south. They don't need to again to go to Casterly Rock.


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

I'm very curious about what they'll do in tonight's episode... can't wait. Although, I'll be sad immediately afterwards no doubt


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Minor book changes. It would have been cool to see the Weirwood at the nightfort, but I guess they blew the CGI budget on those darn dragons again.

Jaime got home earlier than in the books. (Books he got home post Joffrey death)

I thought since we got to see Balon Greyjoy we would see him die. I got fooled. 

Will Yunkai replace Meereen in the show? Or will Daenerys march on Meereen next season?

Blackfish escaped as anticipated by those here.

I liked this episode. It did a good job making me want next season to already be here even though I know what is going to happen next.


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

I seriously hope they skip the whole dany in the desert storyline.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

So Asha, or whatever her name is, is going after Theon? 

I wonder when they're going to bring in Cold Hands. I would really like to know what exactly he is.

If the leeches are working, why did she want to kill Gendry? 

The guy who plays Ramsey Snow is way too good at acting crazy. He makes Joffrey look sane.

So no running into Jamie's arms for Cercei. I thought in the books she was pretty glad to see him until she realized he wasn't going to do her bidding any more.


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

stellie93 said:


> The guy who plays Ramsey Snow is way too good at acting crazy. He makes Joffrey look sane.


He was also the crazy one on Misfits, although nowhere near this far gone...


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> If the leeches are working, why did she want to kill Gendry?


She said that Stannis still wasn't king, and if they wanted the big miracle they had to make the big sacrifice. I'm with you, though: they could just keep killing off "pretenders" with penis leeches and it wouldn't be too long before Stannis was the only person with any remotely legitimate claim.


----------



## JETarpon (Jan 1, 2003)

The "Asha going after Theon" thing was rather jarring.


----------



## jimmyjjohn (Jun 11, 2013)

We've reached the part where the books, IMO, became an endless middle (from which they have not yet begun to emerge, although there were hints in the last book that the next one will actually start moving towards the endgame). I think the forced streamlining of the TV show will really help keep the strengths of the middle books while culling the weaknesses.


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

jimmyjjohn said:


> We've reached the part where the books, IMO, became an endless middle (from which they have not yet begun to emerge, although there were hints in the last book that the next one will actually start moving towards the endgame). I think the forced streamlining of the TV show will really help keep the strengths of the middle books while culling the weaknesses.


I agree about the books and share your hope for the show.

Spoiler through last book:


Spoiler



People keep saying "I can't wait until Dany starts to kick butt with those dragons". I want to say, "keep waiting."


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> We've reached the part where the books, IMO, became an endless middle (from which they have not yet begun to emerge, although there were hints in the last book that the next one will actually start moving towards the endgame). I think the forced streamlining of the TV show will really help keep the strengths of the middle books while culling the weaknesses.





jimmyjjohn said:


> We've reached the part where the books, IMO, became an endless middle (from which they have not yet begun to emerge, although there were hints in the last book that the next one will actually start moving towards the endgame). I think the forced streamlining of the TV show will really help keep the strengths of the middle books while culling the weaknesses.





gossamer88 said:


> I always re-watch, but what did they say about Edmure?





jimmyjjohn said:


> Hi
> 
> I always re-watch, but what did they say about Edmure?


Huh...


----------



## 3D (Oct 9, 2001)

I have to strongly disagree with the opinion that the books become an endless middle from this point on. IMO, the best parts of Book 3 are what come _after_ the Red Wedding. I don't think the meandering really kicks into high gear until the material from ASOS is fully covered. I personally found the first half of ASOS much harder to get through than the second half, which moved at a breakneck pace. As previously suggested above, however, I am likewise hopeful that the streamlining of the TV show will cut down on the meandering of books four and five.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

3D said:


> I have to strongly disagree with the opinion that the books become an endless middle from this point on. IMO, the best parts of Book 3 are what come _after_ the Red Wedding.


I agree. There is going to be a LOT going on in season 4 just covering the last half of book 3.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Huh...


Quote fail from the sandwich guy?


----------



## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Shaunnick said:


> Quote fail from the sandwich guy?


Maybe he's a spammer getting his 5 posts in..?

It was a bit surreal, however... "Hmm, that sounds like something I'd say. In fact...it sounds like something I DID say!"


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

3D said:


> I have to strongly disagree with the opinion that the books become an endless middle from this point on. IMO, the best parts of Book 3 are what come _after_ the Red Wedding. I don't think the meandering really kicks into high gear until the material from ASOS is fully covered. I personally found the first half of ASOS much harder to get through than the second half, which moved at a breakneck pace. As previously suggested above, however, I am likewise hopeful that the streamlining of the TV show will cut down on the meandering of books four and five.


Yeah, sorry, I keep forgetting we're only in the middle of three. There's some great stuff coming in the second half! It was 4 & 5 that I had trouble with (especially 5).


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

madscientist said:


> She said that Stannis still wasn't king, and if they wanted the big miracle they had to make the big sacrifice. I'm with you, though: they could just keep killing off "pretenders" with penis leeches and it wouldn't be too long before Stannis was the only person with any remotely legitimate claim.


About killing Gendry, in the recap it said that she said killing Gendry was about creating dragons. I don't remember hearing that, but it makes sense. Except I'm sure Dany would say that Stannis will burn because he's not a dragon. Maybe Mellisandre thinks she will ride them.

I remember when I watched the first season, I kept waiting for winter to come. And 4 books later,although it is snowing, they keep saying that it isn't really winter yet.


----------



## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

3D said:


> I have to strongly disagree with the opinion that the books become an endless middle from this point on. IMO, the best parts of Book 3 are what come _after_ the Red Wedding. I don't think the meandering really kicks into high gear until the material from ASOS is fully covered. I personally found the first half of ASOS much harder to get through than the second half, which moved at a breakneck pace. As previously suggested above, however, I am likewise hopeful that the streamlining of the TV show will cut down on the meandering of books four and five.


Agreed. Book 3 was my favorite book, and we haven't even seen much of the good stuff yet. I think S4 of the show is going to be fantastic.

My real struggles with the books came at about halfway through Book 4. I had read all of the books consecutively up to that point, but midway through Book 4, when seemingly nothing was happening, I had to put the series down for a while. I eventually picked it up back up a month or so later and finished 4 and 5. So I too am hopeful that the TV show can tighten that up quite a bit.


----------



## heySkippy (Jul 2, 2001)

So, next season we have several fatalities to look forward to...

Spoiling just in case someone wandered into the wrong thread.


Spoiler



Death toll:

Joff
Shae
Tywin
The Hound
Lyssa

UnDeath toll:

Zombie Catelin



Did I miss anyone?


----------



## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

stellie93 said:


> About killing Gendry, in the recap it said that she said killing Gendry was about creating dragons. I don't remember hearing that, but it makes sense.


There was nothing like that in the show. Wonder where they got it?



heySkippy said:


> So, next season we have several fatalities to look forward to...


I think you covered it, except for:



Spoiler



Balon Greyjoy



Also will they bring in this plotline:



Spoiler



The Mountain and Oberyn Martell


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

madscientist said:


> Also will they bring in this plotline:
> 
> The Mountain and Oberyn Martell


No spoiler necessary since that is book three.

If HBO does not have that storyline next season, then they are fools. That is one of the best scenes from SoS.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

heySkippy said:


> So, next season we have several fatalities to look forward to...
> 
> Spoiling just in case someone wandered into the wrong thread.
> 
> ...


Ygritte


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

john4200 said:


> No spoiler necessary since that is book three.
> 
> If HBO does not have that storyline next season, then they are fools. That is one of the best scenes from SoS.


Agreed, for whatever reason I really liked the character of Oberyn Martell and was excited to see what happens with his character and OH S***! He's dead. WTF?


----------



## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Shaunnick said:


> Agreed, for whatever reason I really liked the character of Oberyn Martell and was excited to see what happens with his character and OH S***! He's dead. WTF?


I'm 99% sure they will have it. Two things that *must* be in season 4:

1) Joffrey's death, Tyrion blamed, Tyrion's trial by combat, Tyrion's escape from prison (death of Shae and Tywin)

2) Jon's defense of the wall (Ygritte's death), Stannis' arrival to save the day, and Jon becoming Lord Commander

I'm also hoping for a good bit of Dolorous Ed. He gets the best lines.

We will defend the wall to the last man!
--Cotter Pyke

Probably me. 
--Dolorous Ed


----------



## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

I don't know if this was posted already, but it's an interesting read. Assume spoilers through the end of the books.

How much of the books will we see next year on Game of Thrones?


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Bump



jehma said:


> I don't know if this was posted already, but it's an interesting read. Assume spoilers through the end of the books.
> 
> How much of the books will we see next year on Game of Thrones?


I missed this this when you posted it last year. I really hope they're wrong about Arya. Not sending her to Braavos would be a mistake, IMO.

I just finished re-reading book 3 and am almost done re-watching season 3. I had forgotten that all of the Bran story story from book 3 was covered in season 3. There's really no choice but to pull from the later books for Bran in season 4. It'll be interesting to see how much else in season 4 comes from books 4 or 5.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> Bump
> 
> I missed this this when you posted it last year. *I really hope they're wrong about Arya. Not sending her to Braavos would be a mistake, IMO.*
> 
> I just finished re-reading book 3 and am almost done re-watching season 3. I had forgotten that all of the Bran story story from book 3 was covered in season 3. There's really no choice but to pull from the later books for Bran in season 4. It'll be interesting to see how much else in season 4 comes from books 4 or 5.


There is a season 4 trailer that clearly shows Bravos from the sky, including the titan.

ETA:

Go here: http://winteriscoming.net/2014/03/watch-the-third-trailer-for-game-of-thrones-season-4/

About the 53-54 second mark. Tell me what you see.


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> There is a season 4 trailer that clearly shows Bravos from the sky, including the titan.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> ...


Can't get video from that site on my iPad. Pulled up what I think is the same trailer on YouTube, but not seeing anything at 53-54. Maybe the timing is different. What is it?


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

cherry ghost said:


> Can't get video from that site on my iPad. Pulled up what I think is the same trailer on YouTube, but not seeing anything at 53-54. Maybe the timing is different. What is it?


Bravos.


----------



## Shaunnick (Jul 2, 2005)

Here it is on youtube:


----------



## cherry ghost (Sep 13, 2005)

Shaunnick said:


> Bravos.


Ok, thought I was looking for more than that quick shot.


----------



## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

Wow--that dragon looks huge. I wonder if Danny will be riding on them pretty soon?


----------



## DavidTigerFan (Aug 18, 2001)

COnsidering she doesn't in the books so far, I doubt it.


----------

