# Gotham - Pilot - OAD 9/22/2014 (Spoilers allowed)



## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

A good start, I thought. I liked all the 'aha' moments and much of the setup.

It took me a few minutes to realize there was more to the Wayne murders than a simple mugging and when it was played through, I was happier with the opening scenes.

Selina Kyle is an interesting character. It will be fun to see how that arc shapes up.

All in all, it's a keeper so far.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I thought this was a very strong open. I'm in.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Dang, that was good.

I mean, REALLY good!

I'm impressed that they probably introduced more of the DC Universe in one episode than Arrow has in two seasons, without bogging it down.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

Wow, I was impressed. Great body count for a pilot.  That was a VERY edgy show for the first hour of family hour. 

Are we supposed to know the eyewitness gal thief? I don't know that much Gotham canon. That which I do know is from the 60s series.  (EDIT: nevermind, I googled and that's who I thought it might be, based on the milk theft)

I fought between this show and Scorpion... I think I made the right choice.


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## Hot4Bo (Apr 3, 2003)

I really liked this. It seems that we have seen the future Batman, the future commissioner, the future Catwoman, the future Penguin, and the future Batgirl (although in the campy 60s version, Barbara Gordon was his daughter not his wife or girlfriend). I confess I have not read the comic books though. I have only seen the campy version.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

She's actually (probably) the mother of Batgirl, also named Barbara Gordon. Given the lesbian undertones to her meeting with Montoya, I suspect she may also become this universe's Batwoman (who in the DCU is Montoya's ex-girlfriend Kate Kane).

We also saw the Spectre and the Question. And the Riddler. And Poison Ivy.

And that's just what I came up with. Wait until an actual Batman fan shows up in the thread!


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## Hot4Bo (Apr 3, 2003)

Oh, yes. I did notice Ivy. I have never heard of the Spectre or the Question so I guess they came out of the comic books. I don't think I noticed the Riddler tonight.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hot4Bo said:


> I have never heard of the Spectre or the Question so I guess they came out of the comic books. I don't think I noticed the Riddler tonight.


Renée Montoya is the Question, and her partner Crispus Allen is the Spectre. Edward Nygma (E. Nigma, get it?) is the Riddler...the quirky forensics guy who posed everything as a riddle.

Harvey Bullock is also a major comic book character, although he never becomes a super-hero or -villain. He's a sometimes brutal, borderline corrupt cop who eventually straightens out and becomes Gordon's right-hand man.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

TonyTheTiger said:


> A good start, I thought. I liked all the 'aha' moments and much of the setup.
> 
> It took me a few minutes to realize there was more to the Wayne murders than a simple mugging and when it was played through...


Just like with Superman's origin, there have been variant versions with the murder of the Waynes. In some versions, the guy gets spooked by the look on young Bruce's face (and in part by the fact he just killed people when all he wanted to do was rob them), and the mugger/murderer books. In others the shooter tries to take out young Bruce as well, but the gun jams and he runs.

In this version, the guy pointed the gun at Bruce, and then made no effort to kill the kid (who certainly could tell the Police SOMETHING), and just pushed his way past the boy as he left (can't quite say "escaped").

Something besides one of the traditional origins went on here.

Thought's even struck me it was the big mob boss himself ("Falconi"?), and if that's the case, this could be REAL interesting, provided we ever do find out the truth.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gastrof said:


> Thought's even struck me it was the big mob boss himself ("Falconi"?), and if that's the case, this could be REAL interesting, provided we ever do find out the truth.


I think they pretty much have to "solve" the case eventually; they're making too big a deal of it and of everybody's interest in figuring it out (including, I think, Falcone, who seemed sincere in his denial) to just let it hang forever. I suspect they (the producers) know who did it, and plan to reveal it eventually.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

It sure LOOKED like the guy that was framed.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Renée Montoya is the Question, and her partner Crispus Allen is the Spectre. Edward Nygma (E. Nigma, get it?) is the Riddler...the quirky forensics guy who posed everything as a riddle.
> 
> Harvey Bullock is also a major comic book character, although he never becomes a super-hero or -villain. He's a sometimes brutal, borderline corrupt cop who eventually straightens out and becomes Gordon's right-hand man.


Actually, Montoya was a longtime character in Gotham of the comics, a police detective.

It was only in recent years they decided to have her become the successor to Vic Sage, the original Question (who was from Charlton Comics, the character being acquired by DC when the Charlton company went belly up).

Allen was also a DC/Batman character, Montoya's partner.

The Spectre was originally bonded to a human (another cop, no less) named Jim Corrigan, and later to Hal Jordan (at the time a former Green Lantern).

After some doings between Allen and Montoya and a bad-guy member of Gotham PD (oddly enough also named Jim Corrigan...have no idea why they did that), Allen ends up the third person to be bonded to The Spectre.

Since the DC Comics universe rebooted in Sept. of 2011, I'm not sure what the status is of either Montoya or Allen.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I think they pretty much have to "solve" the case eventually; they're making too big a deal of it and of everybody's interest in figuring it out (including, I think, Falcone, who seemed sincere in his denial) to just let it hang forever. I suspect they (the producers) know who did it, and plan to reveal it eventually.


In the comics, for years Batman never knew who killed his parents, and even after thinking he'd finally found out, things went the other way again.

And again, as of Sept. 2011, I don't think the adult Bruce knows, tho' the Batman knowledge of this Superman fan does have some gaps in it.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Renée Montoya is the Question, and her partner Crispus Allen is the Spectre. Edward Nygma (E. Nigma, get it?) is the Riddler...the quirky forensics guy who posed everything as a riddle.
> 
> Harvey Bullock is also a major comic book character, although he never becomes a super-hero or -villain. He's a sometimes brutal, borderline corrupt cop who eventually straightens out and becomes Gordon's right-hand man.


You also have to wonder if the Comedian auditioning for Fish is destined to fall into a vat of chemicals.

I gotta admit that after watching The Mentalist, I was rather concerned about Gotham but it seems I didn't need to be or at least not as much.

This is one of the best pilots I've seen in a while and the casting is top notch.
McKenzie is doing a good turn as James Gordon and I love Donal Logue as Harvey Bullock.
And the production values were great.

It looks like the question about the Wayne murders is going to be multi-episode but for how long?

(And I hope that Heller has this planned better than Red John.)


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## Maui (Apr 22, 2000)

martinp13 said:


> I fought between this show and Scorpion... I think I made the right choice.


They were not on opposite each other.

I really enjoyed it. It was interesting seeing all the future villains mixed in, even if I only picked up on the main ones since I have never read the comics.


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## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

martinp13 said:


> I fought between this show and Scorpion... I think I made the right choice.


Gotham was far and away better than Scorpion.


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

JYoung said:


> You also have to wonder if the Comedian auditioning for Fish is destined to fall into a vat of chemicals.


There really wasn't much reason for him to be in that extended scene, was there? And she needs someone to take the Penguin's place (although I'm sure the umbrella went with him, of course).


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

JYoung said:


> You also have to wonder if the Comedian auditioning for Fish is destined to fall into a vat of chemicals.


No way that joker is destined for much of anything!

So, if Pepper was so innocent, why was he not only running, but attempting to kill the cop who was chasing him? I guess we are supposed to assume that he knew he was being set up and that they would find a way to murder him. But if he were smart enough to figure that out, he should have been in hiding or on his way out of town before the cops got to his home.


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## Thom (Jun 5, 2000)

Too dark for me. I turned it off when the two partners were hanging upside-down.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> So, if Pepper was so innocent, why was he not only running, but attempting to kill the cop who was chasing him? I guess we are supposed to assume that he knew he was being set up and that they would find a way to murder him. But if he were smart enough to figure that out, he should have been in hiding or on his way out of town before the cops got to his home.


Why would he know he was being set up until the cops showed up to arrest him?


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## Cainebj (Nov 11, 2006)

Great idea. Poorly executed.
Stylistically gorgeous.
Badly written.
Atrocious acting but with some of the dialogue they were given, I don't blame the actors.

It needs a couple of good BAMs and KA-POWs.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 10, 2003)

Donal Logue and Ben McKenzie from Southland, I'm in.
Really enjoyed the pilot.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Cainebj said:


> Great idea. Poorly executed.
> Stylistically gorgeous.
> Badly written.
> Atrocious acting but with some of the dialogue they were given, I don't blame the actors.


Wow, I think you're completely wrong. At least on the negative stuff. Good execution, good writing, good acting. I thought this was the best pilot I've seen since, probably, Lost? Nothing else comes to mind...


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Good execution, good writing, good acting. I thought this was the best pilot I've seen since, probably, Lost? Nothing else comes to mind...


SINCE Lost, maybe. But nowhere near the Lost pilot quality and engagement for me.

I would put it on par with the Smallville pilot which I really liked. But that show went downhill very quickly. Hopefully this doesn't do the same.

Liked most of the characters but for some reason Selina Kyle bugged me. Just too "on the nose" Catwoman. Her stupid cat poses and moves were just over-the-top.

Bullock was perfect. Gordon was a bit bland. Bruce and Alfred were good, but I'm wondering how involved Bruce is going to be? Is he going to get trained up quickly so he's kind of a pre-Batman-mini? (Batmite?  )

I was hoping for a more gothic Gotham City. The atmosphere was okay but too much steel and glass. But that's nitpicking.

A good start.


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

gastrof said:


> It was only in recent years they decided to have her become the successor to Vic Sage, the original Question (who was from Charlton Comics, the character being acquired by DC when the Charlton company went belly up).


Vic Sage will always be The Question to me...

One thing I thought was strange was the number of characters that were shown to be so much older than Bruce Wayne. Catwoman is what? 7 years older? The Riddler is 15 years older? That doesn't seem right....


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Peter000 said:


> SINCE Lost, maybe. But nowhere near the Lost pilot quality and engagement for me.


Oh, absolutely. The Lost pilot was probably a once in a lifetime experience.

So Gotham is a distant second, but second nonetheless.


Peter000 said:


> Liked most of the characters but for some reason Selina Kyle bugged me. Just too "on the nose" Catwoman. Her stupid cat poses and moves were just over-the-top.


The thing that bugged me about Selina was how shoehorned-in she was. There was really no reason for her to be in the episode, and certainly not so prominently. That seemed the one misstep for me. Since the second episode is called "Selina Kyle," they might have been better off just waiting a week to introduce her...

I think the odd mannerisms might have worked better had they been attached to a full-blown character. Presumably, we'll get more of that in the weeks to come.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

I watched the pilot and it seemed interesting. I don't know much about the comic books though. But I see where they showed the young versions of Catwoman, the riddler, penguin, and Ivy. Someone had mentioned it being dark. But I didn't see that at all. I guess after watching The Leftovers this Summer, it's hard to be darker than that show.

I'll give the show several episodes to see how it does. But I plan to continue watching it for now.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Given how Smallville turned out, I had misgivings, but decided to try this. So far I like it. I like how they're showing Jim Gordon, and the massive Gotham City corruption. I'm still skeptical about how they'll do the Bat villains.

A stray thought occurred to me. Was there ever a "Chief O'hara" other than in the Adam West show?


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## billypritchard (May 7, 2001)

Thumbs up.

A tad scared about the Wayne murders, considering how Heller handled Red John on The Mentalist. I only watched a bit of that show, and it still was annoying.

I like how dirty Bullock is. Should be a good character arc. 

Fish was better than I expected. And the Wire dude as Falcone was perfection. Love that guy.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why would he know he was being set up until the cops showed up to arrest him?


For the same reason he knew he was being set up when the cops showed up to arrest him, obviously. It was just a question of timing.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

john4200 said:


> For the same reason he knew he was being set up when the cops showed up to arrest him, obviously. It was just a question of timing.


Well, he knew he was being set up _because _the cops showed up to arrest him, and he knew he didn't do it. I'm not sure how he was supposed to know he was being set up before they showed up. He would just be going about his life as usual, wouldn't he? Unless the bad guys warned him in advance that they were going to set him up...


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, he knew he was being set up _because _the cops showed up to arrest him, and he knew he didn't do it.


No, he knew he was being set up to be killed through some information that we don't know. He learned WHEN he was being set up when the cops arrived.

You cannot deduce that you are being set up to be killed just because some cops come knocking at your door asking about a necklace.


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## Michael S (Jan 12, 2004)

I kind of like it. When I first heard of the show I thought it was going to be the Batman version of Smallville. Luckily didn't turn out that way. Were they referencing Green Arrow when Gordon said "A hooded rich guy archer going around shooting bad guys for kicks."?


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## caslu (Jun 24, 2003)

Michael S said:


> Were they referencing Green Arrow when Gordon said "A hooded rich guy archer going around shooting bad guys for kicks."?


I must have missed this, what scene was that?


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## NorthAlabama (Apr 19, 2012)

i enjoyed the pilot, was happy with the writing, casting and performances (even fish, my biggest reservation in the series), and looking forward to the season - big thumbs up. :up:


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## Honora (Oct 16, 2006)

john4200 said:


> No way that joker is destined for much of anything!
> 
> So, if Pepper was so innocent, why was he not only running, but attempting to kill the cop who was chasing him? I guess we are supposed to assume that he knew he was being set up and that they would find a way to murder him. But if he were smart enough to figure that out, he should have been in hiding or on his way out of town before the cops got to his home.


Pepper must have been guilty of something bad enough for him to react that way.


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## Azlen (Nov 25, 2002)

Honora said:


> Pepper must have been guilty of something bad enough for him to react that way.


He reacted that way when they said they could search his place without a warrant because he was on parole. I assumed he had something else in there that could have caused him to be arrested.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Azlen said:


> He reacted that way when they said they could search his place without a warrant because he was on parole. I assumed he had something else in there that could have caused him to be arrested.


Could be. Maybe he was just stupid. He was guilty of something, did NOT suspect he was being set up, and rather than using his improbably fast speed to get away, he stupidly decided to get into a fight with Gordon and try to murder him.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

One thing I wasn't sure about from the pilot was Gordon's current status in the GCPD. He's a freshly transferred rookie detective, right? The way he commanded the precinct and took charge during the "need my pills" hostage crisis, with the whole room full of officers following his orders and lead, initially caused me to think he was in a command position. But we were just being shown that taking command is in his character, not that he had actual authority to do so, right?


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

Right. And also, I suspect, to fool us into *believing* that he was in charge---like the commissioner we know---before then using his actual lack of authority to help hammer home that this series takes takes place much before the Batman shows/movies with which we are more familiar...


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

This was much, much better than I thought it would be. 

I don't know who the actor playing Gordon is but he reminds me of a younger, slimmer Russell Crowe.

Every recent tv show I've seen Donal Logue in has been good. I hope he's a regular character and not just a guest star.


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## jamesl (Jul 12, 2012)

Amnesia said:


> One thing I thought was strange was the number of characters that were shown to be so much older than Bruce Wayne. Catwoman is what? 7 years older? The Riddler is 15 years older? That doesn't seem right....


^ this


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## TIVO_GUY_HERE (Jul 10, 2000)

Well Cesar Romero was 21 years older than Adam West


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Renée Montoya is the Question, and her partner Crispus Allen is the Spectre.


Ick. I'm glad I'm not reading these days. Montoya was a cop. Just a cop. Why turn every character into a costumed person. And the Spectre will always be jim corrigan to me. They keep messing with things.


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## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

I knew Pepper didn't do it because he isn't Joe Chill. 

Also, as someone who doesn't read comic books, I was impressed that I was able to pull the name Joe Chill from my brain's trivia bank.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Wow.. one of the co-hosts of "the404" podcast really really hated it.

I thought it was pretty decent... But it seemed a lot like the "Star Trek" reboot -- take a whole bunch of familiar ideas, put them in a Quizinart to jumble them all up.

Was _any_ of this in the existing Batman canon?

CatWoman seeing his parents' murder? The Riddler working in the police station?

Someone else brought up the "it's his wife, not his daughter" issue.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

It bugs me when movies and TV shows treat mundane objects in a "hollywood" way. In this show, Selina steals a half-gallon of milk and pours roughly a teaspoonful into a dish for a cat then sets the jug down. The light shines through and you can see that there is perhaps a half inch of liquid left in the jug.

Ugh, why do I let stupid things like that bother me when I'm generally okay with small continuity errors.


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## Eptiger (Jan 16, 2009)

I hated the first half of the episode and warmed up to the second half. I think it was a little clumsy as a pilot - the writing just didn't click for me in several scenes. Too used to the writing in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, I guess. I had the exact opposite reaction to everyone else regarding all the comic book characters: too much too soon. It felt too much like they were trying to wink to the audience every 5 minutes. 

I'll give it another couple of episodes to see how it develops. I think it does have some potential. I like the casting on Bruce Wayne and James Gordon and Penguin, but I don't like their take on Alfred so much.

Elton


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## realityboy (Jun 13, 2003)

TonyD79 said:


> Ick. I'm glad I'm not reading these days. Montoya was a cop. Just a cop. Why turn every character into a costumed person. And the Spectre will always be jim corrigan to me. They keep messing with things.


These days Jim Corrigan is the Spectre, and it looks like he'll make an appearance on Constantine. DC rebooted a few years back so anything before that never happened which would include Renee as Question. The current Question is a bit mysterious. I don't think he's Vic, and he's definitely not Renee.


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## GoPackGo (Dec 29, 2012)

Just found out that my 60 something year old mother watched this. She enjoyed it, thinking it was just another cop show from Bruno Heller, "the writer of that Mentalist show."

She wondered why the kid was named Bruce Wayne because "Isn't that Batman's name?"


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## madscientist (Nov 12, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Why would he know he was being set up until the cops showed up to arrest him?


 I thought it was not too bad. Better than I expected, but there were some flat notes here and there.

Donal Logue is one of my favourite actors and I wish he'd get more work so I was really happy to see him (I didn't realize he'd be in it).

One thing I didn't like: Bullock says they can't reopen the case because they'll get fired, or worse, for killing an innocent man: that's ridiculous; Pepper was going to kill Gordon with a knife. That shooting was totally justified, regardless of whether Pepper was guilty or not, and Gordon would certainly know that. It would be a black eye for the department that he was not guilty but no one is losing their job or getting prosecuted for that.

I'm not talking about the planting of evidence: obviously _that_ will get you prosecuted, maybe even with murder since it resulted in a killing. But Gordon wasn't involved with the frame-up and at that time he didn't know Bullock was either: the shooting itself was not problematic.



sean67854 said:


> It bugs me when movies and TV shows treat mundane objects in a "hollywood" way. In this show, Selina steals a half-gallon of milk and pours roughly a teaspoonful into a dish for a cat then sets the jug down. The light shines through and you can see that there is perhaps a half inch of liquid left in the jug.


 I noticed that too. I just figured she drank the rest before giving some to the cat 



GoPackGo said:


> Just found out that my 60 something year old mother watched this. She enjoyed it, thinking it was just another cop show from Bruno Heller, "the writer of that Mentalist show."
> 
> She wondered why the kid was named Bruce Wayne because "Isn't that Batman's name?"


 Hey I wouldn't roll eyes at that: she actually knows that Bruce Wayne is Batman! That's pretty good.


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## Ereth (Jun 16, 2000)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Renée Montoya is the Question, and her partner Crispus Allen is the Spectre.


Crispus Allen? When did THAT happen?

Interesting that Jim Corrigan is cast for the Constantine series. I bet we have a lot better chance of actually seeing the Spectre there than here.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Amnesia said:


> One thing I thought was strange was the number of characters that were shown to be so much older than Bruce Wayne. Catwoman is what? 7 years older? The Riddler is 15 years older? That doesn't seem right....


Bruce Wayne was stated to be 12 in the pilot.
Selina didn't seem older than that to me.

Nygma is probably 10 years older or so so not a big deal for him to challenge Batman in later years.



Ereth said:


> Crispus Allen? When did THAT happen?


After Hal Jordan was reborn, Allen eventually become the new host for the Spectre.

Although with the New 52 reboot, we are back to Jim Corrigan as the host.


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## Martha (Oct 6, 2002)

GoPackGo said:


> Just found out that my 60 something year old mother watched this. She enjoyed it, thinking it was just another cop show from Bruno Heller, "the writer of that Mentalist show."
> 
> She wondered why the kid was named Bruce Wayne because "Isn't that Batman's name?"


I love this! I watched this during the afternoon yesterday and sent my son, a high school junior, a text asking him a question about Batman history. He answered it (it was his lunch period) so I asked another. He texts back, "Mom! Just google it!"


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

Honora said:


> Pepper must have been guilty of something bad enough for him to react that way.


Eh, plenty of third rate career criminals run from/fight with cops just on general principle.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

sean67854 said:


> It bugs me when movies and TV shows treat mundane objects in a "hollywood" way. In this show, Selina steals a half-gallon of milk and pours roughly a teaspoonful into a dish for a cat then sets the jug down. The light shines through and you can see that there is perhaps a half inch of liquid left in the jug.
> 
> Ugh, why do I let stupid things like that bother me when I'm generally okay with small continuity errors.


I pointed that out to my wife!

We both really enjoyed the pilot. All we really know about Batman comes from the '60's tv show, the movies, and what my sister-in-law (a comics collector) tells us. Was able to spot the main future villains, but haven't heard of the Question or Spectre before.

Loved the casting and the look of the show.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

I hope they completely depart from anything even remotely canon in the comic books, other than the names of the characters. Just so I don't feel like I am at a huge disadvantage watching, vs. those who have read the comics. 

And even more, so I can see the pedants go ape***** over the non-canon-ness.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Well, you'll probably have to settle for the pedants arguing over which canon should be followed and which ones shouldn't, since there have been so many over the years (as we've already seen in this thread!)...


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

Is Fish supposed to be Catwoman? And what's Gordan's wife secret? (I never read the comics)


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

jamesbobo said:


> Is Fish supposed to be Catwoman? And what's Gordan's wife secret? (I never read the comics)


I think the young lady thief who witnessed the Waynes' murder supposed to be Catwoman.


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Well, you'll probably have to settle for the pedants arguing over which canon should be followed and which ones shouldn't, since there have been so many over the years (as we've already seen in this thread!)...


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

jamesbobo said:


> Is Fish supposed to be Catwoman? And what's Gordan's wife secret? (I never read the comics)


According to an article I read, Fish is a totally new character for this show, so she isn't anyone from Batman history.

The article also said that Gordon's fiance's secret was:



Spoiler



That she is Renee Montoya's former lesbian lover.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> I think the young lady thief who witnessed the Waynes' murder supposed to be Catwoman.


I thought she would become Batgirl


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## TonyTheTiger (Dec 22, 2006)

No, that's definitely Selina Kyle, hence the stealing of milk and feeding of cat!

Barbara Gordon became Batgirl, if I remember my Batman lore correctly.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I enjoyed it, but I didn't find it that extraordinary, so I was surprised to read all the high praise in this thread.

I agree with this comment:



Eptiger said:


> I had the exact opposite reaction to everyone else regarding all the comic book characters: too much too soon. It felt too much like they were trying to wink to the audience every 5 minutes.


It just seemed like they were trying to beat us over the head too much with, "Hey! This is Batman!"

The interaction between Bullock and Gordon was a little too over the top, especially with regard to the "I don't like you New Guy!" / "Well, you're just going to have to accept me!" parts of it.

And the ending had the "don't actually verify that the guy is dead" cliché. I mean, if you want Gordon to prove himself, why hang back while he walks to the end of the pier?



Cearbhaill said:


> Eh, plenty of third rate career criminals run from/fight with cops just on general principle.


Plus, he likely knew how corrupt the cops were in Gotham. And as soon as they started saying they wanted to search his place, he probably suspected something was up.



markz said:


> According to an article I read, Fish is a totally new character for this show, so she isn't anyone from Batman history.


I suspect she's being set up to be overthrown. And it might be that Gordon is a part of it, with the aid of people like Penguin. It might be that he will be partially responsible for the criminal element in Gotham that exists by the time Batman comes on to the scene.

I also wonder if Falcone was responsible for the incident that killed Gordon's father. Perhaps that's why he felt an obligation to protect Gordon.

I do like that they are starting with Bruce Wayne being so young, which gives him plenty of room to grow up on the show. Assuming that they have a 7-8 year run, he will be around 20 by the time the show ends. I suspect that it is going to revolve mostly around Gordon for the first few seasons, but over time slowly transition to Wayne.


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

eddyj said:


> I hope they completely depart from anything even remotely canon in the comic books, other than the names of the characters. Just so I don't feel like I am at a huge disadvantage watching, vs. those who have read the comics.
> 
> And even more, so I can see the pedants go ape***** over the non-canon-ness.


There's not much canon at this point in time. There's, at minimum, a good ten years before Bruce becomes Batman. In the original comics, he just studied hard and honed his body. Earlier comics even had him studying in college for a degree in law before he realized that justice can't always be served by the law. Later stories had him going away and disappearing for a while (like in the Batman Begins movie where he studied with the assassin league). As for the villains, there's not much on them in their early periods. At least, not enough to warrant as steadfast canon.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyTheTiger said:


> No, that's definitely Selina Kyle, hence the stealing of milk and feeding of cat!


Plus the wearing of a proto-Catwoman outfit...


TonyTheTiger said:


> Barbara Gordon became Batgirl, if I remember my Batman lore correctly.


Barbara Gordon Jr, Jim's daughter. The one in the show is Barbara Gordon Sr, Jim's wife.

And as I mentioned before, there are hints that this Barbara is to be linked to the comic book Kate Kane, a.k.a. Batwoman, who is Renée Montoya's former girlfriend. I definitely got an ex-girlfriend vibe when Renée and Barbara had their awkward little meeting...


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## bobcarn (Nov 18, 2001)

I had reservations about the series, in spite of the praise it was receiving. I thought the one thing I had going for it was that it was avoiding the Smallville issue of constantly delaying when Clark became Superman. I mean, it was frustrating that it took that dork so long to finally fly. Here, Bruce is a kid so we don't have expectations of him becoming Batman for quite a long time. But I still had reservations in that I wasn't sure it would keep my interest if all it was dealing with was an early Jim Gordon and early villains. I mean, no super stuff.

Then I saw it and was pulled right in. I loved it!

Regarding some things people brought up....

I don't think Selina is that much older than Bruce. Just a few years that wouldn't make a difference once they're adults.

Now I'm wondering about the comedian auditioning for Fish. I'm not sure, was Joker's name ever revealed in Batman comics? I know they revealed he had a wife, but I'm not sure if they ever gave his name. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that nobody, even Batman, knows who he originally was.

What time is this set in. I noticed once that a car seemed older, but that was later in the show and I didn't go back to check others. I also noticed once that a cell phone was a flip phone, which was prevalent 10+ years ago. Is this taking place "now"? Someone mentioned a reference to a rich guy shooting people with arrows. That would mess with DC's timeline if Green Arrow is active but Batman's still a kid (though isn't GA a bit older anyway?).

I wonder if he'll ever meet Clark? They never met in the Smallville show, but I think some of that was because certain people had the rights to portray Batman and those characters, and they weren't allowed to use him.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> And as I mentioned before, there are hints that this Barbara is to be linked to the comic book Kate Kane, a.k.a. Batwoman, who is Renée Montoya's former girlfriend. I definitely got an ex-girlfriend vibe when Renée and Barbara had their awkward little meeting...


I hope she doesn't actually become Batwoman, though. Bruce should be the first bat-inspired hero to show up in Gotham.

Although I wouldn't have a problem if she was some other kind of masked vigilante who ended up training Bruce.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

bobcarn said:


> What time is this set in. I noticed once that a car seemed older, but that was later in the show and I didn't go back to check others. I also noticed once that a cell phone was a flip phone, which was prevalent 10+ years ago. Is this taking place "now"?


It felt like they were going for "timeless," which I think is a good call.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> There's not much canon at this point in time. There's, at minimum, a good ten years before Bruce becomes Batman. In the original comics, he just studied hard and honed his body. Earlier comics even had him studying in college for a degree in law before he realized that justice can't always be served by the law. Later stories had him going away and disappearing for a while (like in the Batman Begins movie where he studied with the assassin league). As for the villains, there's not much on them in their early periods. At least, not enough to warrant as steadfast canon.


One of my peeves is when a show messes with the existing canon of the source material. The lack of history on the early Bat-villains is a strong plus for me.


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

bobcarn said:


> Now I'm wondering about the comedian auditioning for Fish. I'm not sure, was Joker's name ever revealed in Batman comics? I know they revealed he had a wife, but I'm not sure if they ever gave his name. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that nobody, even Batman, knows who he originally was.


It would be funny if they revealed the Joker's name as:



Spoiler



Jack Napier, like in the 80s Batman movie.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

BitbyBlit said:


> I hope she doesn't actually become Batwoman, though. Bruce should be the first bat-inspired hero to show up in Gotham.
> 
> Although I wouldn't have a problem if she was some other kind of masked vigilante who ended up training Bruce.


Oh, I don't think she "becomes Batwoman" in the show...just as none of the other characters "become" their super-hero/-villain identities in the series. Just that they've given her at least one of the major characteristics of Kathy Kane/Batwoman, and obviously we will see other characters move towards their comic book roles, and it wouldn't shock me if Barbara Gordon moves towards Batwoman. Or not.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Cearbhaill said:


> Eh, plenty of third rate career criminals run from/fight with cops just on general principle.


Oh, sure, they fire their guns repeatedly at the police all the time, and then try to murder them with a knife quite frequently.

Pepper did a lot more than just run or fight.

His behavior only makes sense if he strongly believed the police would kill him. Or if he is just really stupid.


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## Michael S (Jan 12, 2004)

I wonder if the circus will come to Gotham with the Greysons. Of course with Dick just being born.


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## aaronwt (Jan 31, 2002)

sean67854 said:


> It bugs me when movies and TV shows treat mundane objects in a "hollywood" way. In this show, Selina steals a half-gallon of milk and pours roughly a teaspoonful into a dish for a cat then sets the jug down. The light shines through and you can see that there is perhaps a half inch of liquid left in the jug.
> 
> Ugh, why do I let stupid things like that bother me when I'm generally okay with small continuity errors.


Did you notice that the half gallon of milk was almost empty before she poured it in the bowl? Yet it should have been full when she stole it. I guess she may have been drinking it before giving it to the cat?


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

aaronwt said:


> Did you notice that the half gallon of milk was almost empty before she poured it in the bowl? Yet it should have been full when she stole it. I guess she may have been drinking it before giving it to the cat?


Yeah, it was obvious that it was essentially empty by the way she handled and poured it. I could have suspended my disbelief there, but then she put it down and the light shined through. Ugh.

It's like with most coffee cups, they are usually empty and I know that and can tell, but I can deal with it because it's not flat out shown.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Here are two screenshots, only 2 seconds apart:



















note that the second image is BEFORE she even poured anything


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Actually, here are two more screenshots, this time only separated by 2 frames (a fraction of a second).

It seems that the light reflecting from the outside may have made it look full when it was probably always nearly empty from the time she pulled it out of her coat. I guess we could assume that the jug developed a leak when it hit the pavement and it leaked all over her clothes until she pulled it out.


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

markz said:


> The article also said that Gordon's fiance's secret was:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why this is spoilered as I thought the hint was sledgehammer clear.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

JYoung said:


> I'm not sure why this is spoilered as I thought the hint was sledgehammer clear.


It never occurred to me.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jamesbobo said:


> It never occurred to me.


It was obvious to me, but then I know the comic book Renée Montoya is gay...


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

jamesbobo said:


> It never occurred to me.


I thought the cop lady made an attempt at a kiss or something?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

sean67854 said:


> It bugs me when movies and TV shows treat mundane objects in a "hollywood" way. In this show, Selina steals a half-gallon of milk and pours roughly a teaspoonful into a dish for a cat then sets the jug down. The light shines through and you can see that there is perhaps a half inch of liquid left in the jug. Ugh, why do I let stupid things like that bother me when I'm generally okay with small continuity errors.


Uh. She probably drank the rest herself. Hollywood mistakenly thinks you can figure that out yourself without seeing it.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

markz said:


> According to an article I read, Fish is a totally new character for this show, so she isn't anyone from Batman history. The article also said that Gordon's fiance's secret was: * SPOILER *


That spoiler was extremely obvious from the dialog. Extremely. Even without knowing anything about Montoya from the comics.


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

JYoung said:


> I'm not sure why this is spoilered as I thought the hint was sledgehammer clear.


Because it came from an outside source, the article I read. Just following the rules.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Michael S said:


> I wonder if the circus will come to Gotham with the Greysons. Of course with Dick just being born.


Just a little dick.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

TonyD79 said:


> Uh. She probably drank the rest herself. Hollywood mistakenly thinks you can figure that out yourself without seeing it.


I can't tell if you're trying to be flip, but i'll respond anyway. When I that I can deal with continuity errors, I meant things similar to what you are saying, like in one shot a bottle of water is 3/4 full, then a couple of shots later it's almost empty. I can accept that someone could have consumed that water off camera. Or when an actors sleeve is rolled up and then down between shots, that I can buy.

My logic tells me that there is no way a girl that size could drink that much milk that fast, but perhaps she could.

It wasn't in this show, but another "hollywood" thing that bugs me is that it seems like every person that buys groceries gets unwrapped French bread.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)




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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm surprised no one has said anything about the actress playing Selina Kyle being the spitting image of Michelle Pfeiffer. It was obvious she was the future Catwoman from the second she came on the screen. I hope she can actually act.

As far as Pepper's actions, from the second Ivy answered the door, you knew he had serious anger management issues. Gordon & partner also seem to have caught him in a rage. Plus, he may have been given a dose of something to set off & exacerbate that rage by the people who framed him. Finally, he may have been chosen as a fall guy because publically declared he would die killing cops in a hail of bullets before ever going back to the joint. Pepper was tall enough to be the killer, but definitely had a different build. 

I really enjoyed the pilot. I hope they can keep the quality up. And it's been so long since I read a Batman comic that most of this discussion about canon is new information to me.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

I'm just amazed at the whole milk "discontinuity" discussion. You folks think she knows only one cat?


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Wil said:


> I'm just amazed at the whole milk "discontinuity" discussion. You folks think she knows only one cat?


It's bad continuity if it goes from empty to full. At worst, it's sloppy directing if it goes the other way.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

sean67854 said:


> My logic tells me that there is no way a girl that size could drink that much milk that fast, but perhaps she could.


It is not clear how long she was up on the roof. She could have been up there for a half hour to drink a quart of milk. But if so, I would have at least have expected her to go through the wallet and get the cash while she was sitting up there drinking, but she did not pull the cash out until she came down. So it sort of looks like she came directly down.

One other thing is that those type of milk jugs usually have a fastening ring that you have to remove the first time. I did not see it when she pulled it out of her coat, and she did not appear to remove a fastening ring. So that makes it seem like she did stop to drink on the roof.


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

john4200 said:


> It is not clear how long she was up on the roof. She could have been up there for a half hour to drink a quart of milk. But if so, I would have at least have expected her to go through the wallet and get the cash while she was sitting up there drinking, but she did not pull the cash out until she came down. So it sort of looks like she came directly down.
> 
> One other thing is that those type of milk jugs usually have a fastening ring that you have to remove the first time. I did not see it when she pulled it out of her coat, and she did not appear to remove a fastening ring. So that makes it seem like she did stop to drink on the roof.


That could be my problem right there. I was thinking that she just ran away from the dude and down the alley, but now I think I remember she climbed up a fire escape or something, right?

Anyway, for a less nitpicky question, why do they call Cobblepot "penguin"? I know he had an odd walk, but I attributed that to the beatdown Fish put on him.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

jamesbobo said:


> It never occurred to me.


Yeah, blatantly obvious... She totally emphasized "knew" in the line which was something like "Not like the way we KNEW each other.."


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## markz (Oct 22, 2002)

sean67854 said:


> Anyway, for a less nitpicky question, why do they call Cobblepot "penguin"? I know he had an odd walk, but I attributed that to the beatdown Fish put on him.


He didn't get that walk until the beatdown, so I am not sure what led to Fish calling him Penguin.


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

As for being called a "Penguin", did you notice how he dressed?


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

sean67854 said:


> My logic tells me that there is no way a girl that size could drink that much milk that fast, but perhaps she could.


How fast? From the time she took it until she feeds the cat? Just how much time is that? How do you know how much time it is?


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

mattack said:


> Yeah, blatantly obvious... She totally emphasized "knew" in the line which was something like "Not like the way we KNEW each other.."


And her eyes traveled downward over Barbara's body while she said it.


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

When shown from behind, the goggles on Selina Kyle's head looked like cat ears.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

cheesesteak said:


> When shown from behind, the goggles on Selina Kyle's head looked like cat ears.


And in general, her whole outfit looks a lot like Catwoman's (at least from the best period of the comic book, the Darwyn Cooke/Ed Brubaker/Cameron Stewart era).


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## cheesesteak (Jul 24, 2003)

Day-um!


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## martinp13 (Mar 19, 2001)

markz said:


> He didn't get that walk until the beatdown, so I am not sure what led to Fish calling him Penguin.


How he dressed and the big "beak" nose.


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## jamesbobo (Jun 18, 2000)

mattack said:


> Yeah, blatantly obvious... She totally emphasized "knew" in the line which was something like "Not like the way we KNEW each other.."


Just shows how clueless I am. When I heard that line I wondered what she meant by that. I thought she may have committed a crime but there was no way to prove it.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

actually, I think I worded it wrongly.. it was really more emphasis on 'we'.. but basically, it was the intonation.


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## Cearbhaill (Aug 1, 2004)

It was glaringly obvious in our house.


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## Beryl (Feb 22, 2009)

Watched the pilot on demand and now in with the SP.


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## mr.unnatural (Feb 2, 2006)

sean67854 said:


> It bugs me when movies and TV shows treat mundane objects in a "hollywood" way. In this show, Selina steals a half-gallon of milk and pours roughly a teaspoonful into a dish for a cat then sets the jug down. The light shines through and you can see that there is perhaps a half inch of liquid left in the jug.
> 
> Ugh, why do I let stupid things like that bother me when I'm generally okay with small continuity errors.


LOL. I noticed that too, but I just assumed she must have drunk some of the milk on the way home. I tend to make a game out of picking out the discontinuities in TV shows like this. There's always a magic glass that changes fluid levels with each angle.

I watched a behind the scenes special about Gotham that aired about 7-10 days ago and it really whetted my appetite for this show. I finally watched it last night with the wife and she actually thought it was pretty good, which is highly unusual for her (she hates just about anything on TV for the most part). I was even more impressed with the show after seeing the pilot episode. The cast is superb and the writing is intelligent. The look and feel of Gotham really sucks you into the story. I'm definitely in this for the long haul.


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## jsmeeker (Apr 2, 2001)

Liked the show. Liked seeing characters I recognize. But I don't read the comics so I don''t know 'em all. Will we see Penguin here and there in some out of the way secret underground lair? Who is the actress that plays the future Mrs. Barbara Gordon? Looks familiar but can't place her. Am i right that she and Detective Gordon are not actually married yet?


But if the threads here will be about how much milk is in or not in a container, I won't be able to put up with it!


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

They should have called it The Big Gotham Theory!


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## sean67854 (Jul 11, 2001)

jsmeeker said:


> Liked the show. Liked seeing characters I recognize. But I don't read the comics so I don''t know 'em all. Will we see Penguin here and there in some out of the way secret underground lair? Who is the actress that plays the future Mrs. Barbara Gordon? Looks familiar but can't place her. Am i right that she and Detective Gordon are not actually married yet?
> 
> But if the threads here will be about how much milk is in or not in a container, I won't be able to put up with it!


Apologies Jeff, I just wanted to point out something that bugs me in general. I didn't mean for it to turn into a *thing*.


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## Wil (Sep 27, 2002)

jsmeeker said:


> if the threads here will be about how much milk is in or not in a container, I won't be able to put up with it!


He said "goth."


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## JYoung (Jan 16, 2002)

Wil said:


> He said "goth."


Well of course he did.
The title of the show is "Gotham".


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## eddyj (Jun 20, 2002)

Gauntam does not have the same ring to it.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

jsmeeker said:


> Liked the show. Liked seeing characters I recognize. But I don't read the comics so I don''t know 'em all. Will we see Penguin here and there in some out of the way secret underground lair? Who is the actress that plays the future Mrs. Barbara Gordon? Looks familiar but can't place her. Am i right that she and Detective Gordon are not actually married yet?


You are correct. They are not married. She said something about "once we're married and you move in here..."

The actress is named Erin Richards. The most prominent thing she's been in before this is 13 episodes of the second season of "Breaking In."


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

bobcarn said:


> I had reservations about the series, in spite of the praise it was receiving. I thought the one thing I had going for it was that it was avoiding the Smallville issue of constantly delaying when Clark became Superman. I mean, it was frustrating that it took that dork so long to finally fly. Here, Bruce is a kid so we don't have expectations of him becoming Batman for quite a long time. But I still had reservations in that I wasn't sure it would keep my interest if all it was dealing with was an early Jim Gordon and early villains. I mean, no super stuff.
> 
> Then I saw it and was pulled right in. I loved it!
> 
> ...


Saw the making of segment. They are shooting for 70's New York, but with modern technology like cell phones.


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## jamesl (Jul 12, 2012)

saw on another forum someone suggested the guy in the beginning who wanted his pills was Solomon Grundy


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## Amnesia (Jan 30, 2005)

I was hoping that the video was going to be of the guy "who wanted his pills". I don't remember that.

EDIT: Oh! The guy in the police station....


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## gastrof (Oct 31, 2003)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> It's bad continuity if it goes from empty to full. At worst, it's sloppy directing if it goes the other way.


My earliest memory of people messing up with continuity was from an Elvis movie I saw as a kid. He was walking with a girl at a carnival, and smoking a large cigar. Thing is, at different points in the conversation, as the camera angles changed from one side to the other and from closeups to longshots, the length of the cigar in his hand kept changing. It'd be short and then a moment later be full length again.

This told me that even Hollywood movies aren't made perfectly. Not surprised a weekly TV series has some hiccups in that regard.

So they goofed on how much milk was in the bottle from one second to the next. They'd likely filmed the "pouring" shot several times, and nobody thought to refill the bottle.

Yeah, bad continuity, but it happens, and that's likely the real explanation. Not that it represents something happening in story. It was a production problem, not a story mystery.


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## Michael S (Jan 12, 2004)

jamesl said:


> saw on another forum someone suggested the guy in the beginning who wanted his pills was Solomon Grundy


Since he wanted drugs it could have been Bane.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

gastrof said:


> Yeah, bad continuity, but it happens, and that's likely the real explanation. Not that it represents something happening in story. It was a production problem, not a story mystery.


Except it's not really bad continuity, since time passed between when we saw the bottle full and when we saw it nearly empty.

Again, bad continuity would be if it were empty and then full.


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## rimler (Jun 30, 2002)

Thank god the show's on tonight so we can move on from this stupid argument.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

rimler said:


> Thank god the show's on tonight so we can move on from this stupid argument.


To a new stupid argument, in a separate thread.


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## BitbyBlit (Aug 25, 2001)

I prefer to look at the carton as partially full rather than almost empty.


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## jamesl (Jul 12, 2012)

Amnesia said:


> I was hoping that the video was going to be of the guy "who wanted his pills". I don't remember that.
> 
> EDIT: Oh! The guy in the police station....


yeah, I searched youtube for a clip form the police station, but couldn't find one

so I decided to include a clip on Solomon Grundy because I thought he was probably unfamiliar to most people



Michael S said:


> Since he wanted drugs it could have been Bane.


Bane is an interesting guess too


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## dianebrat (Jul 6, 2002)

rimler said:


> Thank god the show's on tonight so we can move on from this stupid argument.


Have you met us?


mattack said:


> To a new stupid argument, in a separate thread.


Exactly!


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

Hopefully, no one will drink any milk in this ep!


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

dianebrat said:


> Have you met us? Exactly!


Same BBT people, different show.

Maybe we can move on to Catwomans hair length.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> Maybe we can move on to Catwomans hair length.


Oooh, yeah! Let's argue about whether a 13-year-old girl is sexier with short or long hair!


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

I am coming to the party late. I just watched this last night.

LOVED it.

Loved all the references to criminals in the future. Ivy, Selina, Penguin even the guy telling jokes. I loved that I was able to 'get' who was who. 

And the guy playing Gordon is great. 

I had not put it on a SP before, but it is now.


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

betts4 said:


> I am coming to the party late. I just watched this last night. LOVED it. Loved all the references to criminals in the future. Ivy, Selina, Penguin even the guy telling jokes. I loved that I was able to 'get' who was who. And the guy playing Gordon is great. I had not put it on a SP before, but it is now.


So did your SP catch the second episode that aired last night?


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## betts4 (Dec 27, 2005)

DevdogAZ said:


> So did your SP catch the second episode that aired last night?


Sadly no. I mean, I put it on SP last night. I watched the pilot and the one last night was halfway through. I tried to record it thinking it would backtrack and catch it from the beginning - sometimes it does that and sometimes it doesn't.

Anyway in my area it is being repeated on Friday night so I am set to record it then. AND then it should go forward with the SP.

And for that matter, I missed the pilot and then read a couple posts here and was interested enough to record it last friday. So thanks to all you here!


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## allan (Oct 14, 2002)

I SPd this, almost at the last minute, for Monday (the 9/22 ep) at least. I saw an ad Monday morning and decided what the heck. I'm glad I did it as an SP, because I totally forgot about it last night, until I saw it on my list before I went to work this morning.


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## TonyD79 (Jan 4, 2002)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Oooh, yeah! Let's argue about whether a 13-year-old girl is sexier with short or long hair!


She's actually 15.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

TonyD79 said:


> She's actually 15.


Well, the character's 13. I'm sure the actor has MUCH longer hair!


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

markz said:


> He didn't get that walk until the beatdown, so I am not sure what led to Fish calling him Penguin.


Fish wasn't the only person to call him penguin. One of the thugs in the alley called him that and he angrily responds "You know I don't like to be called that" so there's a history of him being called penguin


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

I thought this was pretty cheesy. At one point I actually rolled my eyes. But it had a little bit of promise, so I will give it another episode or two. I think they are trying too hard with cramming all the characters in, and the dialog is not great. But I liked Gordon's partner and I liked Fish. Oh, and Penguin was pretty good too. The others (Riddler, Ivy, Catwoman,) was just the writers trying too hard. I want to like Ben Mckenzie, but it's like a B movie version of his Southland S1 character.


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## That Don Guy (Mar 13, 2003)

Gotham order extended from 16 episodes to 22


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## scooterboy (Mar 27, 2001)

Zevida said:


> I want to like Ben Mckenzie, but it's like a B movie version of his Southland S1 character.


I guess it's good I never watched Southland then. 

Was he one of the two blond cops who looked just like each other?


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## Zevida (Nov 8, 2003)

scooterboy said:


> I guess it's good I never watched Southland then.
> 
> Was he one of the two blond cops who looked just like each other?


You should definitely watch Southland, because it was an awesome show.

Ben McKenzie is the younger, idealistic cop (Det. Gordan).


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## Raisltin Majere (Mar 13, 2004)

Zevida said:


> Ben McKenzie is the younger, idealistic cop (Det. Gordan).


I've never seen him in anything else, but I think he was the worst thing about episode 1 (the only one that's been broadcast here)

I felt like he was playing Lucas Hood playing Gordon


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## Malcontent (Sep 5, 2004)

Bump..........

I didn't want to create another topic just for this.

FYI,

Looks like the *1st episode of the second season* of Gotham is available by magical means. I only found a SD version so far.

PlayStation Plus members had an exclusive sneak peek of the first episode starting yesterday. This Plus-exclusive expired Tuesday, September 15th at 12:00 PM Pacific.


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## Philosofy (Feb 21, 2000)

I still haven't finished season 1 yet.


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