# Tivo Series 3 or Premiere - OTA or Clear Qam listings info



## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

From what I read here, neither of these units can use the channel and program info obtained either OTA or from Clear Qam channels for scheduling/recording purposes.
Wasn't that supposed to be one of the "holy grails" of DTV: embedded info that can be used for a myriad of purposes?
What don't I understand, technically, about this disability? I understand that many TV manufacturers don't want to pay licensing fees for TV Guide data, but with HD channels, all that info is supposed to be encoded into the .1 channel - no?
Is it because Tivo doesn't want us to have an alternative to paying them $12.95 for listings? We're going to do that anyway if we subscribe to channels above basic, so what am I not following?
Is this a feature that will one day be available?

Thanks


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## shwru980r (Jun 22, 2008)

tvmaster2 said:


> From what I read here, neither of these units can use the channel and program info obtained either OTA or from Clear Qam channels for scheduling/recording purposes.


You can get channel guide information to schedule and record programs for digital over the air channels on both units.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

shwru980r said:


> You can get channel guide information to schedule and record programs for digital over the air channels on both units.


channel guide info based on numbers only? Are there program descriptions as well?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Moxi can manually map the clear QAM channels and give you guide data.


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

I think the OP is talking about the TVGOS information imbedded in the channel data. TiVo doesnt use that information. There is not much information in that stream. TiVo gets its guide data from Tribune and gets much more detail than is in TVGOS.


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## cowboydren (Oct 7, 2009)

tvmaster2 said:


> channel guide info based on numbers only? Are there program descriptions as well?


Plugging my TiVo HD into an antenna with no network connection nets me mixed results. Some channels get guide data populated via PSIP, other channels don't.



SCSIRAID said:


> I think the OP is talking about the TVGOS information imbedded in the channel data. TiVo doesnt use that information. There is not much information in that stream. TiVo gets its guide data from Tribune and gets much more detail than is in TVGOS.


There's 3 days' worth of program title, episode number, actors, and episode synopsis in that PSIP stream. What confuses me the most is why some channels work and some don't. I have pretty poor experience with Tribune Media Services through Dish, and I'm looking to avoid that with a TiVo. The critical information that TMS publishes has to come from the station itself, which the station broadcasts unmolested for free. I appreciate the "enhancements" that TMS adds, but I'd rather it just work, even if I don't have a network connection.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

tvmaster2 said:


> Is it because Tivo doesn't want us to have an alternative to paying them $12.95 for listings?


The TiVo is designed to use data from their service, rather than PSIP, yes. But it's not just the guide data you're paying for -- the TiVo won't really operate without service. (You can pause LiveTV and watch any recordings you made when you had service; that's about it.) In TiVo's view, you're also paying for software updates, as well as subsidizing the up-front price of the unit (if that's still the case).

PSIP data tends to suck, anyway.

But you absolutely can use a subscribed TiVo with free OTA as your only program source, and have full guide data for it (from TiVo). In fact this is how my Premiere is set up right now, until I get a CableCard.



> _Is this a feature that will one day be available?_


Using PSIP instead of TiVo-provided data? No.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

wmcbrine said:


> The TiVo is designed to use data from their service, rather than PSIP, yes. But it's not just the guide data you're paying for -- the TiVo won't really operate without service. (You can pause LiveTV and watch any recordings you made when you had service; that's about it.) In TiVo's view, you're also paying for software updates, as well as subsidizing the up-front price of the unit (if that's still the case).
> 
> PSIP data tends to suck, anyway.
> 
> ...


It seems then, that the originating channels are not maximizing what they can do with DTV. If that's the case, is this an FCC violation, or are they within their rights to supply zero program data in the stream. If so, combined with the fact that I get less channels OTA than I did with analog, then the sale of the public frequencies by Powell/Martin seems like nothing more than a cash-grab. I live exactly half-way between LA and San Diego, in a county with 3 million people, and receive less free TV than before, since both cities seem to have reduced their transmission power. 
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Maybe Google will fix it.


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## wmcbrine (Aug 2, 2003)

You quote me, but it doesn't really seem to be a reply to what I wrote, unless it's to "PSIP data tends to suck anyway". But that was just an aside. My point was that TiVo has a certain business model (long predating their use of ATSC tuners) that involves the use of Tribune guide data. The quality of PSIP data, or the lack thereof, really has nothing to do with why the TiVo doesn't rely on it.

I don't think guide data was anything like a "holy grail" of the digital transition, either. The holy grail was high definition. Everything else -- extra subchannels, guide data -- is a bonus. Personally, I get many more digital OTA channels than I did analog (if you count subchannels, and I do, since even the standard-definition digitals tend to look better than the old analogs).

Transmission power was reduced across the board for digital TV vs. analog, yes. Part of that is just an artifact of the way power levels are calculated (it's a more constant level for digital), but part of it, I think, was a flawed calculation of the needed power levels by the FCC, and an overemphasis on avoiding interference vs. ensuring adequate signal. Some stations are working to correct this now (moving back to UHF, petitioning for increased output). You can probably do a lot to compensate for the lower levels yourself, by getting new antennas and/or amplifiers. 

Anyway, yes, there are problems, but I don't think they outweigh the good.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

tvmaster2 said:


> From what I read here, neither of these units can use the channel and program info obtained either OTA or from Clear Qam channels for scheduling/recording purposes.
> Wasn't that supposed to be one of the "holy grails" of DTV: embedded info that can be used for a myriad of purposes?


Most local channels only offer 48 hours or so of PSIP guide data, and it is far less comprehensive than what is available from Tribune. There are no new or repeat flags; there is nothing to identify the program as a new episode or repeat. There is no original airdate, no episode number, and often no indication of actors, actresses, directors, or writers.

PSIP guide data is therefore incapable of supporting many of the features that TiVo provides, such as "season passes" and "wishlists" with the ability to record only new episodes and ignore repeats.



tvmaster2 said:


> What don't I understand, technically, about this disability? I understand that many TV manufacturers don't want to pay licensing fees for TV Guide data, but with HD channels, all that info is supposed to be encoded into the .1 channel - no?


The electronic program guide (EPG) grid is patented. No CE manufacturer can offer that feature without paying expensive patent licensing fees. That's a key reason why you don't see program guides in more products.



tvmaster2 said:


> Is it because Tivo doesn't want us to have an alternative to paying them $12.95 for listings?


Only a small fraction of the $12.99/mo actually pays for listings; the guide data itself costs TiVo less than $2/mo. The bulk of the fee pays for the software and software development, which is not factored into the retail price of the product. It also covers the loss taken on the initial sale; last year, TiVo lost close to $100 on every box sold.

As noted above, PSIP listings lack the information necessary to support TiVo's name-based recording. However, even if more information were provided, PSIP still isn't reliable enough for use in a name-based recorder; broadcasters routinely take PSIP information offline for maintenance, and frequently fail to report the correct time. The clocks on many stations remain off for days, even weeks, after a DST change. There is no FCC enforcement for PSIP requirements.

Few broadcasters provide information collected in house; instead, they license guide data from the cheapest possible sources, like FYI Television. The accuracy and completeness of this information pales in comparison to that offered by Tribune. When there are discrepancies between the PSIP information and the TiVo's information, it is *almost always* the PSIP information that is in error.



cowboydren said:


> Plugging my TiVo HD into an antenna with no network connection nets me mixed results. Some channels get guide data populated via PSIP, other channels don't.


If you want Tribune information on all OTA channels, you need to re-run Guided Setup and select ANTENNA or ANTENNA & CABLE.



cowboydren said:


> I have pretty poor experience with Tribune Media Services through Dish, and I'm looking to avoid that with a TiVo.


Name-based recording is much more reliable on TiVo than it is with Dish Network. Many find Dish Network's "DISHPass" recording so unreliable that they use the timer-based option instead. The fact that Dish Network prominently features the timer-based option says something about what they think of their name-based implementation.

It is not clear why such a distinction exists given the same Tribune guide data. TiVo may process the guide data differently before delivering that information to its boxes, and/or it may use different logic in its record scheduler. TiVo certainly does some things that many others do not, such as maintain a 30-60 day recorded history to prevent the same program from recording twice in that time.

Note the new TiVo Premiere combines information from multiple sources, including Tribune and Rovi (TVGuide).



cowboydren said:


> I have pretty poor experience with Tribune Media Services through Dish, and I'm looking to avoid that with a TiVo. The critical information that TMS publishes has to come from the station itself, which the station broadcasts unmolested for free.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that local stations deliver their *own* guide data. That is almost never the case. Local stations license their information from lower-tier (i.e. cheaper) guide data providers like FYI Television; others license limited information from Rovi.

Why? Broadcasters (not to be confused with the networks themselves) don't have direct access to program synopsis for network and syndicated programs; they only have direct access to the information they produce for locally originated programs. They have to get the synopsis information for the network and syndicated programs from a third-party. The PSIP software solutions used by broadcasters are setup to pull information from third-party sources like FYI Television and Rovi over a network connection.


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## tvmaster2 (Sep 9, 2006)

Wow - good answers to all questions. Thanks. You'd think though, with the money and power available, that networks and affiliates could find a way to harmonize the guide data info so that the affiliates wouldn't have a problem broadcasting the data that originates from other production facilities than their own. Seems lazy from what I'm reading here. I have compared OTA with satellite and cable HD, and found that most of the time, my OTA HD material is the best looking. Now if there was just a reliable way to categorize the listing data - great.


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## cowboydren (Oct 7, 2009)

bkdtv said:


> If you want Tribune information on all OTA channels, you need to re-run Guided Setup and select ANTENNA or ANTENNA & CABLE.


Doesn't fix it. Even after days of letting it try to populate via PSIP.



> I'm not sure where you got the idea that local stations deliver their *own* guide data. That is almost never the case. Local stations license their information from lower-tier (i.e. cheaper) guide data providers like FYI Television; others license limited information from Rovi.


I'll restate; the PSIP stream comes from the station, including data that KSHB, or whoever, licensed from Rovi. But from there, it goes to Dish, DirecTV, or TiVo, who edit the information AGAIN, with the help of Tribune, and rebroadcast that. One source, at least three editors. I'd rather just get the unmolested PSIP stream from the station, because I don't trust Tribune any more than I trust Tribune + Dish.

I'm sure you have had good luck with Tribune+TiVo, at least better luck than I've had with Tribune+Dish. I'm still skeptical, and I'd rather not get any more parties involved than necessary. I'm still looking for an option that doesn't require a permanent broadband internet or telephone connection to work, and a TiVo with a lifetime subscription would mostly work, except that the guide is only half-populated.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

cowboydren said:


> Doesn't fix it. Even after days of letting it try to populate via PSIP.


TiVo does not use or support PSIP. As discussed above, that information is insufficient to support its name-based recording. TiVo only uses Tribune guide data for OTA stations, and you only get that if you've re-run guided setup and selected OTA during setup. This information will only appear on channels from an antenna; it will *not* appear on Clear QAM channels.



cowboydren said:


> I'll restate; the PSIP stream comes from the station, including data that KSHB, or whoever, licensed from Rovi. But from there, it goes to Dish, DirecTV, or TiVo, who edit the information AGAIN, with the help of Tribune, and rebroadcast that. One source, at least three editors. I'd rather just get the unmolested PSIP stream from the station


No, that's not the way it works. Read what I wrote above.

Tribune and Rovi are supplied the same program information by the networks/studios. They create their own synopsis from those descriptions. Information on network programs is not derived from broadcasters. Local broadcasters do not have or deliver "unmolested" information on network programs.

Local broadcasters use PSIP software that pulls a _small subset_ of the same information available from Rovi, Tribune, or FYI Television over the Internet. It does not pull information on network programs from their own servers or an in-house editorial staff. Broadcasters do not employ a staff to write or maintain program descriptions for PSIP; at most, they may have one employee whose responsibilities including writing and submitting descriptions for locally produced content (i.e. local news shows) to Rovi, Tribune, and FYI.

Of the guide providers, Tribune is widely considered to have the most reliable information with first-run flags and original airdates, although not all providers choose to provide the information in its entirety. Below are TiVo screenshots with the information shown on popular network programs, *regardless* of where one lives.

24
24 (INFO)

Flash Forward
Flash Forward (INFO PG1)
Flash Forward (INFO PG2)

Fringe
Fringe (INFO)

House
House (INFO)

Mentalist
Mentalist (INFO)

V
V (INFO)

Feel free to compare that to your Dish Network DVR.


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