# Antenna signal strength question



## lmacmil (Oct 26, 2015)

The antenna signal strength on my Roamio basic ranges from 58 to 72 on the channels I care about. I have read that 72 is the max reading the Tivo gives (although I have occasionally seen a higher reading on one channel). 

A couple questions: if a channel reads 72, does that mean the signal is a strong as it can be? Also, it is a linear scale? IOW, does a 60 reading mean the signal strength is 83% of a 72 reading?


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

lmacmil said:


> The antenna signal strength on my Roamio basic ranges from 58 to 72 on the channels I care about. I have read that 72 is the max reading the Tivo gives (although I have occasionally seen a higher reading on one channel).
> 
> A couple questions: if a channel reads 72, does that mean the signal is a strong as it can be? Also, it is a linear scale? IOW, does a 60 reading mean the signal strength is 83% of a 72 reading?


If you are looking at TiVo box Diagnostics, then the signal is after the AGC circuit has adjusted the level. Yes, 72 is normal. A SNR of about 35 dB is good too. To get a more real time reading, use the channels, signal strength reading. It will move while AGC is being applied. Is there a problem?


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

lmacmil said:


> The antenna signal strength on my Roamio basic ranges from 58 to 72 on the channels I care about. I have read that 72 is the max reading the Tivo gives (although I have occasionally seen a higher reading on one channel).
> 
> A couple questions: if a channel reads 72, does that mean the signal is a strong as it can be? Also, it is a linear scale? IOW, does a 60 reading mean the signal strength is 83% of a 72 reading?


The signal strength meter goes up to 100. - If you've seen higher than 72, then you know it goes higher than 72.

My Roamio was only on OTA for a week until I got a CC for it but just like on my old Premiere, the signal strength varied from low 50s to upper 80s.


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## scandia101 (Oct 20, 2007)

JoeKustra said:


> Yes, 72 is normal.


Not the question asked.


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## millercv (Oct 16, 2005)

I came to ask this same question. I have a Tivo Roamio and was getting some weather breakups recently and decided to try an amp since it is a long run to the antenna. After the amp and tweaking the antenna I was getting 72 on all my stations - sometimes it would blurp higher on the initial channel change but always settle in on 72 - nothing I could do with antenna pointing would increase beyond that...


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## namwoljr (Aug 8, 2014)

millercv said:


> I came to ask this same question. I have a Tivo Roamio and was getting some weather breakups recently and decided to try an amp since it is a long run to the antenna. After the amp and tweaking the antenna I was getting 72 on all my stations - sometimes it would blurp higher on the initial channel change but always settle in on 72 - nothing I could do with antenna pointing would increase beyond that...


Yep, this has been well documented by others on this forum (including myself) using Roamios for OTA. My setup is rock solid (high gain antenna, quality preamp, short run of RG6, <20 miles from transmitters) and all of my stations are pegged at 72 when I go into the system information screen. If I use the real time signal strength meter, most channels will start off in the 80's, but quickly settle down at a solid 72 after a few seconds.

For whatever reason, the Roamios don't like to show anything higher than 72 for signal strength.


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Automatic Gain Control. For some reason the Bolt and four tuner Roamio, when OTA, like to settle at 72. For cable they like to settle at 87 to 90.


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## elwaylite (Apr 23, 2006)

JoeKustra said:


> Automatic Gain Control. For some reason the Bolt and four tuner Roamio, when OTA, like to settle at 72. For cable they like to settle at 87 to 90.


Thats all I have ever seen. Below 50 reads as not good, but once it creeps over 50 it is getting there. My Fox runs around 50, and it is not reliable.

My CBS, ABC and CW, which were all 100's on the display, all settle at 72 and record fine. My NBC is around 67.


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## compnurd (Oct 6, 2011)

elwaylite said:


> Thats all I have ever seen. Below 50 reads as not good, but once it creeps over 50 it is getting there. My Fox runs around 50, and it is not reliable.
> 
> My CBS, ABC and CW, which were all 100's on the display, all settle at 72 and record fine. My NBC is around 67.


Same here on my Bolt. ABC,CBS,FOX and NBC all settle on 72. db readings for those are all 29.. PBS shows 60 with a db reading my 25

and these are the same readings with one bolt right off the antenna split and another coming further down the line on a 6 port splitter


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

Some light reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_gain_control


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## Dixon Butz (Mar 28, 2003)

Signal strength is not everything. Signal quality and symbol quality matters.
My ch 7 WJLA comes in at 72 with 29SNR on Roamio. Sometimes the signal quality goes down. Which causes the symbol quality to drop. That causes breakup. It affects the Roamio OTA and the HD Homerun equally.

Not sure why but this rarely happens only on ch 7










Here it is 99.99% of the time:


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## jth tv (Nov 15, 2014)

How can we convince TiVo to give us signal quality and symbol quality ?


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## Robin_Banks (Mar 31, 2016)

72 here in AZ as well...I play 72 in KENO Baby ...


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

To add to the conversation, don't be fooled by the 72 reading. (Which is what I get like everyone else with the OTA model) The Tivo knows it is higher. It won't drop below 72 unless it really does. You just don't see the drop from 80 to 72 for example. I have tested this a couple of times looking at the drop on my TV meter, DISH OTA, and Tivo meter. When it fluctuates only some on the TV and DISH receiver it does not at all on the Tivo it stays at 72. Once it fluctuates/drops much more then it shows up as going below 72 on the Tivo.


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## hhh222 (Jul 28, 2005)

FYI.....I've had a series 3 for years and got in the 90's on almost all ota channels with rare breakups. With the Roamio (tried 2 different units) with the same hook up to the same antenna as the S3, I never got over 72 with frequent breakups. I was definitely NOT getting more signal than the 72 reading as evidenced by the frequent breakups I got on channels the S3 got 98 readings with no breakups. 

A Tivo tech told me it's because the Roamio is all digital ???


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## tampa8 (Jan 26, 2016)

hhh222 said:


> FYI.....I've had a series 3 for years and got in the 90's on almost all ota channels with rare breakups. With the Roamio (tried 2 different units) with the same hook up to the same antenna as the S3, I never got over 72 with frequent breakups. I was definitely NOT getting more signal than the 72 reading as evidenced by the frequent breakups I got on channels the S3 got 98 readings with no breakups.
> 
> A Tivo tech told me it's because the Roamio is all digital ???


Then you had a different problem. 72 is more than enough. If you are losing 20 points or more frequently something else is going on. I don't see that breakups is the issue at hand, it's the accurate reading.

This answer is along the lines of what I am saying, said a different way.


namwoljr said:


> Yep, this has been well documented by others on this forum (including myself) using Roamios for OTA. My setup is rock solid (high gain antenna, quality preamp, short run of RG6, <20 miles from transmitters) and all of my stations are pegged at 72 when I go into the system information screen. If I use the real time signal strength meter, most channels will start off in the 80's, but quickly settle down at a solid 72 after a few seconds.
> 
> For whatever reason, the Roamios don't like to show anything higher than 72 for signal strength.


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## jfj1153 (Apr 12, 2017)

I am new to this forum so please bare with me. I have an antenna mounted in the attic which is pointed at 144 degrees (SE) it is suppose to receive stations 70 miles away (the stations towers are about 38 to 45 miles away) and a radio shack signal amp connected to it.My roamio is connected to the antenna using RG6 cable and with a hdmi cable connected to a Sony 55 inch 4K. When checking the channel signal I only get maximum of 50 on some and others less then 50 which is causing pixel disruption. On the Roamio diagnostic only show 32 and nothing higher. Any suggestion on how to increase the numbers. I was also looking at getting a bolt but from what I read that would not make a difference. Thanks in advance for any response


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

jfj1153 said:


> I am new to this forum so *please bare with me*...


Gosh! :blush: Couldn't you at least buy me dinner first? 


jfj1153 said:


> ...*I have an antenna mounted in the attic which is pointed at 144 degrees (SE) it is suppose to receive stations 70 miles away (the stations towers are about 38 to 45 miles away) and a radio shack signal amp connected to it.*My roamio is connected to the antenna using RG6 cable and with a hdmi cable connected to a Sony 55 inch 4K. When checking the channel signal I only get maximum of 50 on some and others less then 50 which is causing pixel disruption. On the Roamio diagnostic only show 32 and nothing higher. Any suggestion on how to increase the numbers. I was also looking at getting a bolt but from what I read that would not make a difference. Thanks in advance for any response


Good details.

Please also supply:
Your zipcode
The make and model of the antenna purchased
The materials between your antenna and the outside air (i.e. roofing, plywood, insulation, etc...)
With that, we'll both be able to go to www.antennaweb.org and 'look around'...

Some initial thoughts:
Installing an outdoor antenna in an attic cuts its range by ~50%
- so your 70-mile antenna is now really 35-mile and your station towers are 38-45 miles away
There could be an obstruction directly between your antenna, in its current mounting location, and the transmitting antennas.
- moving the antenna to the opposite end of your attic, or up or down a bit, could make a difference
If possible, drag a small tv up to the attic and use it to help 'align' the antenna with the transmitting antennas.
- you could also use a TiVo 'Signal Strength Meter w the BEEPs turned on' but I'm old, so I think in 'Old-Fashioned' ideas
Is outdoor mounting feasible?


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## jfj1153 (Apr 12, 2017)

Sorry for the delay in my response. My zip code is 60073, the antenna I purchased is a 8 element bowtie indoor/outdoor hdtv antenna good for 70 miles and the roof is plywood base and standard roof. I purchased a Channel Master (CM-7777) and connected it also added a
*BAMF 2-Way Coax Cable Splitter Bi-Directional MoCA 5-2300MHz. Once all this was installed I did a tuner check and it gave me a max of 35 on all 4 tuners. when I did a channel search for signal it only showed 3 channels and before (Dec 2016) It showed I was receiving approx. 65-75 channels. That is why I was wondering if the Roamio could be faulty. Could not get any real straight answers so I order the Tivo Bolt with 500 GB hard drive. I want to see if the Roamio is bad*


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## jfj1153 (Apr 12, 2017)

I live in a association and have that big of an exterior antenna would draw criticism. I used my iPhone which I got a compass from the app store. So I know the antenna is facing 144 degrees (S/E). I have a Clear path facing south east with no obstructions. I was wondering if there was a better antenna but my research has not found one yet.


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

jfj1153 said:


> Sorry for the delay in my response. My zip code is 60073, the antenna I purchased is a 8 element bowtie indoor/outdoor hdtv antenna good for 70 miles and the roof is plywood base and standard roof. I purchased a Channel Master (CM-7777) and connected it also added a
> BAMF 2-Way Coax Cable Splitter Bi-Directional MoCA 5-2300MHz. Once all this was installed I did a tuner check and it gave me a max of 35 on all 4 tuners. when I did a channel search for signal it only showed 3 channels and before (Dec 2016) It showed I was receiving approx. 65-75 channels. That is why I was wondering if the Roamio could be faulty. Could not get any real straight answers so I order the Tivo Bolt with 500 GB hard drive. I want to see if the Roamio is bad


The CM-7777 preamp will WIPE out your signal if you have more than 1 real strong station. It overloads very easy, as it's for extreme far-fringe use. Also, not all splitters pass power. So if your 7777 power injector is on the wrong side of the splitter, your 7777 preamp is not getting power, and is now a 30db ATTENUATOR. Try without it, and going straight to your Tivo. Report back if your signal levels are better. If that antenna is inside your house, that will also cut way down on your signal.


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## jfj1153 (Apr 12, 2017)

Disconnected the 7777 and and made sure the antenna was at 144 degrees (S/W) I now receive 51 channels on the tivo. It was strange on a couple of channel it showed 85 on the signal strength but I got no picture. So right now everything is fine and I am at least getting some channels.


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

MikeBear said:


> *The CM-7777 preamp will WIPE out your signal if you have more than 1 real strong station*. It overloads very easy, as it's for extreme far-fringe use. Also, *not all splitters pass power*. So if your 7777 power injector is on the wrong side of the splitter, your 7777 preamp is not getting power, and is now a 30db ATTENUATOR. Try without it, and going straight to your Tivo. Report back if your signal levels are better. *If that antenna is inside your house, that will also cut way down on your signal*.


The OP didn't originally mention and preamp so it's good to come back to this thread and find that the problem was so easily solved. :thumbsup:
By "WIPE out", do you mean the AGC will just turn way down to accommodate the strong signal at the expense of 'burying' the weaker ones?
.
Is it safe to assume that *ALL* splitters not explicitly marked to pass power don't?
.
I have a 'yet-to-install-in-my-attic' Antennacraft HBU33 (70 miles VHF, 60 miles UHF, towers 24 miles away) along with a Winegard AP-8275 and 10db, 6db, 3.5db (2-way splitter w/ 75 ohm terminator) attenuators to 'fine tune' the signal if necessary. I have ~50 ft of 40+ year old RG-59 (always indoors) running from my attic to my basement 'control room' (i.e. all tv and telephone lines converge here) and I have (up to) 14 ATSC devices to feed. I think I'm good. Do you see any potential problems?

Upon re-reading this entire thread, I found this interesting post:


Dixon Butz said:


> Signal strength is not everything. Signal quality and symbol quality matters.
> My ch 7 WJLA comes in at 72 with 29SNR on Roamio. Sometimes the signal quality goes down. Which causes the symbol quality to drop. That causes breakup. It affects the Roamio OTA and the HD Homerun equally.
> 
> Not sure why but this rarely happens only on ch 7
> ...


I have 3 SiliconDust HDHDR3-US tuners, and until the HBU33 gets installed (after my surgery) I have just a Philips SDV2210/17 (Rabbit ears w/ UHF loop) to play with in testing out my (sorta new) Roamio OTA. Initially, after a bit of finessing with the ear length, angle, and '12 Position Fine Tuning' knob, I was able to get the closest local VHF PBS station (RF Channel 8, 6 miles at 301°) located on a small hill (with the antenna balanced on the lamp shade of the lamp on the tall bureau). Then one day it fell, I tried to get the picture back, played with the '12 Position Fine Tuning' knob (shouldn't have touched it) and now nada. It doesn't seem to me that it should be that difficult to receive:
Callsign: *WNJB*
ERP: 20.2 kW
HAAT: 212m
MHZ: 186
Wavelength (inches): *63.483870967741936*

In comparison, WABC @ 22 miles, which originally just popped in-and-out, has MUCH less power:
Callsign: *WABC-TV*
ERP: 3.2 kW
HAAT: 491m
MHZ: 180

Where am I going?

Well, what do you have in your personal 'Bag of Knowledge' regarding the relationship between:
Signal Strength
Signal Quality
Symbol Quality

I've moved the 'ears' from fully horizontal to 45°, changed their lengths from 63.48" 'tip-to-tip' to 31.74" each. The SD display is encouraging so soon after I post this I'm going to grab a HDHR3-US from the living room (connected to FiOS cable for Clear QAM for WMC) and see what results I get with the Philips.

Growing up in NYC, almost every relative and friend of my parents that we visited had Rabbit Ears (transmitting antennas were first on the Empire State Building, then the World Trade Center). UHF tuners weren't even invented yet so it was channels 2-13 VHF for everyone.

Currently, I'm only 'aware' of #1, Signal Strength. I have a suspicion that #2 and #3 will shortly expand my knowledge of ATSC signal reception.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.


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## ClearToLand (Jul 10, 2001)

*SiliconDust HDHomeRun Config GUI:*








*Yay!!!*​It was that darn '12 Position Fine Tuning' knob that got me - although I always had *~95-100% Signal Strength*, I had *0% Symbol Quality* due to *~42% Signal Quality* (Yellow didn't show up too well).

Right now my Roamio OTA is SOLIDLY displaying WNJB with a TiVo Signal Strength of 50 (Peak 55).

Each 'Rabbit Ear' is 31.75" 'Base-to-Tip', they are completely horizontal, and per my Army/Navy compass, pointed 301°. At ~6 miles (and 20.2 kW), I expected more - but that is an 'Experiment' for another day.

Some interesting LINKs I found:
*HDHomeRun Troubleshooting*
*SiliconDust Forum: Signal Strength and Quality*
THANKS @Dixon Butz !!! :thumbsup:

P.S. From this experience, I'd say to ALL TiVo owners, "_Forget about_ (meaning insert the appropriate curse word) the Signal Strength Meter"!. Further research on @JoeKustra 's posts regarding OTA Signal Strength is on my "ToDo List"...


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## MikeBear (May 21, 2015)

ClearToLand said:


> The OP didn't originally mention and preamp so it's good to come back to this thread and find that the problem was so easily solved. :thumbsup:
> 
> By "WIPE out", do you mean the AGC will just turn way down to accommodate the strong signal at the expense of 'burying' the weaker ones? There's two things that can happen: 1: multiple strong signals from the antenna in the same band can generate IMD inside the preamp, and cause the preamp itself to overload. 2: A too strong signal can cause the device tuner to turn down the AGC as you said.
> .
> ...


My immediate answers in red within your quote above.

You should repost all this here, and ask Rabbit73 for help. He's REALLY good at all this, and enjoys helping others. You MUST also post your TVfool and FMfool report, as those are critically needed to give you the BEST answers:

```
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hdtv-technical/
```


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## JBDragon (Jan 4, 2004)

Did you try the antenna without the Amp? Sometimes with strong signals, putting a amp on will kill the signal. How many times is the cable split? The more the weaker the signal is going to be. How good is the cable? Putting a Antenna in the attic will reduce the distance it can pick up the signal from the signal being blocked some from your roof, and because it's low. Mounted above your takes care of those 2 issues. HOA's suck and I'd never move into one. No group of busy body's is going to tell me what I can and can't do with my own house.

My TV's have a built in Signal strength meter in them and so I can see how good it is that way. I also have a couple HDHomerun's, one is currently plugged into my antenna and using the app on my iPhone called Signal GH I can have it scan for channels and view the signal strength. I can be on the roof running it to fine tune the antenna direction that way. I can click on Towers and it'll give me a Map along with the grouping of TV station channels on it then using the arrow of my location, turn my phone until it's pointing at the towers and going my how my phone is pointed, I can turn the antenna to match and then fine tune it to get the channels I want by watching the signal strength meter watching a couple channels at once. When you zoom into the map, you can see that not all the stations are really located in the same area, but spread out some. So you may need to fine tune to get kind of in the middle of the group.

It goes without saying, get a big directional antenna. I ended up getting the Winegard HD8200U from Amazon. Back in Sep 2012 shortly after getting my house late October. The Antenna I have grounded along with the Coax cable I have a grounding block on that and it's all new cable. It's just over 8 feet long.


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## Bucket73521 (Apr 29, 2017)

Looking at tvfool you should be getting all but two with a vhf antenna. Your NM (dB) range 12 to 48. About 25 channels should be at 144°.


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## ldue2541 (Apr 25, 2016)

JoeKustra said:


> Automatic Gain Control. For some reason the Bolt and four tuner Roamio, when OTA, like to settle at 72. For cable they like to settle at 87 to 90.


how can you set the automatic gain control on a bolt? 
2. if that is possible.. ldue [email protected]


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## JoeKustra (Dec 7, 2012)

ldue2541 said:


> how can you set the automatic gain control on a bolt?
> 2. if that is possible.. ldue [email protected]


We have no control of the AGC level on any TiVo.


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