# Advertisement at end of "Rudolph" - never seen this kind before



## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I just watched "Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer", recorded yesterday.

When I got to the end and the options to delete or keep the recording show up, there was also a third option on the bottom in the form of a clickable banner-ad for some contest called "A home for the holidays".

It actually doesn't bother me - I prefer ads like these rather than ads during programming, and if TiVo can make money on it, great. But I've never seen this particular method of advertising before. Is this something new that will be done again, or has it been used before?

/Mike


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

I've never seen it. But then again, I've watched very little TV in the last several weeks.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

TiVo announced this capability a couple of weeks ago: http://www.tivo.com/cms_static/press_120.html


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

That is about a 100% chance of it being seen, plus it sounds like it is not very intrusive.


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## ilovedvrs (Oct 21, 2004)

Just got one also...

and does it SUCK


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

ilovedvrs said:


> Just got one also...
> 
> and does it SUCK


I haven't seen one yet. How does it suck? Does it force you to press additional buttons? Does it force you to watch a video ad? Or does it just present advertising on the "delete now?" page?


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

ilovedvrs said:


> Just got one also...
> 
> and does it SUCK


I don't understand... You'd prefer Tivo to not collect any advertising revenue and just raise your monthly rates? That doesn't jibe with your "Tivo should be free" subtitle - you don't want to pay the money, and you don't want it to come from advertisers. Do you think that it just grows on trees?

And did we really need a completely different thread on the same topic?


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

pdhenry said:


> I haven't seen one yet. How does it suck? Does it force you to press additional buttons? Does it force you to watch a video ad? Or does it just present advertising on the "delete now?" page?


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

So I'd have to cursor **down** to select the ad content? To delete or keep the recording I'd do the exact same thing I did before? Bring it on.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

OMG that sUX!!!111!!!

MY TIVo WIL NeVER B the SAME!!  

Thanks for posting Greg, that's as non intrusive as can be, and I'm certainly glad to see Tivo get another revenue stream.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

I have same recording on my S3. But it doesn't do it... yet.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

I can see how TiVo could potentially make a lot of money from this if they insert ad links to the end of every show. A very ingenues idea, if I might say.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

I think its awesome! Bring it on TiVo. Increase your revenue and prosper.


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## peteypete (Feb 3, 2004)

Big deal. It's unobtrusive. Some people will watch. Tivo can deploy to all shows for one advertiser.


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

I'm sad that I'll probably never see this on my DTiVo. I do watch ads that interest me, and this would make it easier to do that. Seems pretty unobtrusive.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

still looking for that Victoria's Secret ad


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

There are times when I actually would WANT to see an ad for something I am thinking of buying. Targeting it to those who might be interested, and making it easy to ignore if you don't want to see it, seems to be a winner for all except those who consider advertisements inherently and universally evil.


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## TydalForce (Feb 9, 2006)

Ads aren't evil - they pay for things (or help pay for things) so we don't have to. As long as they stay unobtrusive.

E.G. popup ads - open a new window, get in the way, and often have flash and other crap. They're bad (thank goodness Firefox blocks them)

this ad? not bad... it's out of the way, doesn't change how we interact with our TiVo, and will help out TiVo Inc. Don't like the ads? Don't watch them. Simple enough ;-}


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

I figured TiVo would do this in a very unobtrusive manner, and it looks like they succeeded. I don't see how anyone could seriously have a problem with this system. The only people I could see this bothering are those who just dislike all advertising and wouldn't be happy with any thing but no ads at all.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

TydalForce said:


> this ad? not bad... it's out of the way, doesn't change how we interact with our TiVo, and will help out TiVo Inc. Don't like the ads? Don't watch them. Simple enough ;-}


So how does it help Tivo if you don't watch them? It sure looks like "pay per click" type of ad. Even if it is not "pay per click", do you you think that anybody will pay for ads that are "unobtrusive" enough that most of the people will not watch them? As it is these ads are only available to about 1.2 million TiVos. If 90% of the viewers ignore them, then you can do better advertising in local community paper.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

megazone said:


> I figured TiVo would do this in a very unobtrusive manner, and it looks like they succeeded. I don't see how anyone could seriously have a problem with this system. The only people I could see this bothering are those who just dislike all advertising and wouldn't be happy with any thing but no ads at all.


Some of us would probably object if HBO or Showtime began running advertising, wouldn't we? Would we be wrong for expecting a subscription service not to bother us with advertising?

I still believe if you get ads you should be compensated for them with a lower service fee. And if you don't want ads, you simply should be able to pay to not get them.

As far as I'm concerned, advertising is clutter; and I don't need more clutter in my life. I don't care one bit if using that otherwise empty space helps TiVo. I prefer that space to remain related specifically to functional services of my device, not advertising, or left blank.

Anybody who develops a hack to completely remove these sorts of ads should feel free to contact me anytime for free hosting space and bandwidth to distribute the hack.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Some of us would probably object if HBO or Showtime began running advertising, wouldn't we? Would we be wrong for expecting a subscription service not to bother us with advertising?


Actually, yes, I think you'd be wrong. Unless the subscription service is explicitly ad free. I subscribe to many magazines - they all have ads. I subscribe to cable TV - most of the channels have ads. In the past I've subscribed to things like Time-Life videos, and they come with ads in the box.

The TiVo service has never been promoted as ad free, in fact, quite the opposite. And TiVo is not profitable and need more revenue to remain in business. So they can increase user fees or find other revenue, such as ads. They've always been unobtrusive about them and that's the best they can do, IMHO.

If they offered a way to pay more instead of get the ads I doubt enough people would put their money where their mouth is to make it worth while. And tracking stuff like that is added overhead costs so it'd have to make up for the ads and pay for the administration of the program. I can't see it being worth the effort for them to do it. Especially since it only makes sense if it gains them enough business - who isn't buying TiVo because of the ads who would if they could pay more not to get them?

It sounds like you're one of the people who just dislike ads on general principal, so you won't be happy with any advertising.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

megazone said:


> Actually, yes, I think you'd be wrong. Unless the subscription service is explicitly ad free. I subscribe to many magazines - they all have ads. I subscribe to cable TV - most of the channels have ads. In the past I've subscribed to things like Time-Life videos, and they come with ads in the box.
> 
> The TiVo service has never been promoted as ad free, in fact, quite the opposite. And TiVo is not profitable and need more revenue to remain in business. So they can increase user fees or find other revenue, such as ads. They've always been unobtrusive about them and that's the best they can do, IMHO.
> 
> ...


Well... considering they continually expand the amount of ad clutter throughout the TiVo interface, there was a time people who subscribed did so with the belief they wouldn't have ad clutter.

The best they can do is eliminate the ads. They choose not to do the best they can do.

How much revenue do they really earn by having a unit receive such advertising? Triple it and charge the customer that amount to have them disappear; though I'd certainly prefer to see them credit everyone who wanted the advertising. I suspect the advertising income is very minimal anyway, at least from what I recall in prior 10Q's.

Contrary to what advertisers would like you to believe, there's nothing wrong with disliking ads and doing everything one can do to not have to endure them. And in fact at times I will specifically avoid purchasing brands or products when I'm faced with obnoxious advertising (remember the X-10 pop-under ad campaigns on web sites?; I will never buy an X-10 product. Ever. Good campaign for them. I'll exclusively buy equivalent stuff from their competitors.). So it'd be to the advertisers benefit to ensure their ads don't appear on any TiVo device I might subscribe.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Ad revenue is a growing part of TiVo's revenue, taking on more importance with time. Each new system provides more revenue.

I'm not willing to pay more just to get rid of the ads. They don't bother me, in fact, I like some of them. I suspect that they don't bother most users enough to pay more. People already complain about paying too much, ask them to pay more just to avoid some unobtrusive ads and I don't see you getting many takers.

Anyone who had the belief there wouldn't be ads didn't read the user agreement, even back in the early days. Advertising has been part of TiVo's business plan since the beginning.

If you don't like the ads, there is always MythTV.

And it is only to the advertisers benefit to not have their ads appear if more people would NOT by their product because of it than WOULD buy their product. Since very, very few people actually bother to avoid buying something due to an ad, it doesn't matter. You just don't matter enough to sway them.

If you really didn't like ads you wouldn't use TiVo.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

dswallow said:


> Well... considering they continually expand the amount of ad clutter throughout the TiVo interface, there was a time people who subscribed did so with the belief they wouldn't have ad clutter.


Believing in something doesn't necessarily make it fact (see also: easter bunny, tooth fairy). As far as the continual expansion, we're look at what? Tivo Central, and the "Delete this program?" dialog, two screens that are up for less than 3-5 seconds each time they appear? While that is an expansion over no ads, it's hardly the ad littered landscape that you make it sound like.


> The best they can do is eliminate the ads.


Only if you want your service fee to go up of Tivo to go out of buisness.


> They choose not to do the best they can do.


Not really, see above.


> How much revenue do they really earn by having a unit receive such advertising? Triple it and charge the customer that amount to have them disappear; though I'd certainly prefer to see them credit everyone who wanted the advertising. I suspect the advertising income is very minimal anyway, at least from what I recall in prior 10Q's.


And how many of those quarters had this advertising mechanism in them? 
None at all? 
Exactly.


> Contrary to what advertisers would like you to believe, there's nothing wrong with disliking ads and doing everything one can do to not have to endure them. And in fact at times I will specifically avoid purchasing brands or products when I'm faced with obnoxious advertising (remember the X-10 pop-under ad campaigns on web sites?; I will never buy an X-10 product. Ever. Good campaign for them. I'll exclusively buy equivalent stuff from their competitors.). So it'd be to the advertisers benefit to ensure their ads don't appear on any TiVo device I might subscribe.


That's a shame, since X-10 products are sold by a lot more people than just X-10.com (the horrible ad people). Sounds like it's your misinformation that's the problem, not the product.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

megazone said:


> If you really didn't like ads you wouldn't use TiVo.


Actually in a sense I don't. The DirecTV w/TiVo units aren't littered with advertising.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

GoHokies! said:


> Only if you want your service fee to go up of Tivo to go out of buisness.


If TiVo isn't charging enough that they go out of business with advertising revenue, I think I'd place the blame on TiVo not charging enough to begin with.

Though considering for all practical purposes, they just increased prices $7/month, one would wonder if every subscriber on older pricing plans is helping put TiVo out of business, if you follow your line of reasoning.

Over the years, all that's happened is TiVo charges higher and higher prices for service; and TiVo adds more and more intrusive advertising to the service. And that's ignoring the money they make on selling viewing data, which since it's non-intrusive, doesn't bother me at all.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

dswallow said:


> Over the years, all that's happened is TiVo charges higher and higher prices for service; and TiVo adds more and more intrusive advertising to the service.


Which is exactly they should be trying to do - bring in more revenue, in the hopes of turning a profit.

The fact that Tivo has to either increase revenue or decrease expenses is a given. I certainly prefer this to higher service fees or decreased expenses which would decrease the quality of the product that they put out.

Obviously you'd prefer another revenue stream - any suggestions?


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## mike3775 (Jan 3, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> .
> That's a shame, since X-10 products are sold by a lot more people than just X-10.com (the horrible ad people). Sounds like it's your misinformation that's the problem, not the product.


But they paid the ad company to do that crap, thus they get no money from him, which is his right.

Me, I don't care right now about the ads, but what happens when they are no longer unobtrusive and pop up on every screen you use to access now playing? Imagine hitting the Tivo button, and instead of seeing the now playing list immediately, you see a screen for an ad and you have to select no to get to the now playing list, then after doing that, you select your program, and when you hit play, instead of starting what you selected, another ad pops up where you have to hit no to start watching the program. Then after the program ends, instead of getting the normal delete or keep message, you get another ad where you have to say no, before being allowed to delete. You honestly think that won't happen in the future if this new way doesn't work?

Remember, websites never relied on pop ups until the ad market went south, now many websites have numerous pop ups to bring in revenue.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

mike3775 said:


> But they paid the ad company to do that crap, thus they get no money from him, which is his right.


 , but irrelevant.



> Me, I don't care right now about the ads, but what happens when they are no longer unobtrusive and pop up on every screen you use to access now playing? Imagine hitting the Tivo button, and instead of seeing the now playing list immediately, you see a screen for an ad and you have to select no to get to the now playing list, then after doing that, you select your program, and when you hit play, instead of starting what you selected, another ad pops up where you have to hit no to start watching the program. Then after the program ends, instead of getting the normal delete or keep message, you get another ad where you have to say no, before being allowed to delete. You honestly think that won't happen in the future if this new way doesn't work?


That would suck, and there would be a mass exodus of subscribers. Yes, I honestly think that Tivo knows that and wouldn't go that far. Do you honestly think that Tivo would be that foolish?

Instead, I just focus on what is actually happening now, and not speculating on what may happen with the ads in the future. So far, not offended.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Series 3 owners are next on the ad hit list, you know.

Just wait until advertisers get approached by TiVo to buy scroll-time on the Series 3 front panel displays. 

There's also plenty of animated backgrounds that could be swapped out for backgrounds with advertising; anyone care to guess how long it'll take to sell that real estate off?

And certainly the progress bar doesn't need to be a solid color, it could be a company logo pattern, like a Coca-Cola swirl...

And why not animate those little icons like the check marks when something is selected; surely no one will object if we get a 1 second pop-tart ad instead of a check mark everytime an item is selected.

None of those "interfere" with your use of the unit; would any of that sort of stuff bother you if TiVo implemented them and sold the ad space it represented?

A friend from Florida visited me recently; his first time in NJ. His comment after driving up on the Garden State Parkway was that he was amazed how pretty everything is. You know why? No billboards. All green foliage and trees; even the guardrails are colored brown to fit in with the landscape better. The cement barriers on the sides of bridges mostly use real wood along the top in order to soften their look. It's a far more peaceful driving experience than billboard-laden highways. At least if TiVo had an option to pay for being ad-free you'd be getting something for your extra money.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

Not Tivo related...but it is ad related....
Was watching the series premier of "My Boys", and it had one character talking at length about dating on match.com. Of course the TV show is sponsored by match.com. Argh. Now that's intrusive, but probably the future.


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

I love the myth in this thread.

"Poor, poor Tivo. They have to have ads or else they might go out of business!" 

Yeah, no. It's not like Tivo is a free service we all get from the kindness of Tivo's heart. If I remember correctly I paid $199 for my box and $250 for the lifetime service back in the day. Frankly if Tivo can't make ends meet at that cost, they shouldn't be in business, they're product isn't popular, or it's a poorly run business.

If they want to add ads to the system, make it a choice. It's dumb that I have no choice whether 'features' get added to my box. Why don't they create some new features and then prompt the user: 

"We've got some cool new features you might like! Press thumbs up to accept!* 

* Features include ad supported content"

Hmm, maybe TivoToGo for Mac? There's a feature I'd like! 

This is further example that's the subscription model was the wrong business model in the first place.


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## bkane (Aug 30, 2006)

johndierks said:


> I love the myth in this thread.
> 
> "Poor, poor Tivo. They have to have ads or else they might go out of business!"
> 
> ...


And may I ask what the right business model might be?

Also not anyone here said "Poor, poor TiVo." Everyone is talking about TiVo creating a new revenue stream to help them seeing as they get no money from you.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Even not being obtrusive, TiVo fans should be a little pissed. I mean how long do you wait for real features and real fixes? Undelete took about 4 years after the hackers gave it to us. Still no free space indicator. No development on "Teach TiVo" or things that can be useful. New features and fixes take forever.

This though, this gets the fast track push right to your box. Even if you ignore them completely, don't you think that TiVo should be working on DVR features for you? I mean service costs like 20 bucks a month now.


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## bkane (Aug 30, 2006)

Its money coming in now so its more important to them. And anyway how many people here actually pay more than the MSD for each TiVo box they own. People complain but no one even pays the new fee or anything at all. The lifetime deal was just awesome but it hurt TiVo.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> I don't understand... You'd prefer Tivo to not collect any advertising revenue and just raise your monthly rates? That doesn't jibe with your "Tivo should be free" subtitle - you don't want to pay the money, and you don't want it to come from advertisers. Do you think that it just grows on trees?


I have 3 subscriptions to TiVo which costs me a total of $322.20/year and my rates are lower than the new ones being charged! For that I receive program schedule updates which cost TiVo very little and periodic poorly written and mostly untested software "updates" which I neither requested nor want.

If TiVo can't make money with subscriptions at those rates -- that's enough to buy a new copy of Windows XP for each machine each year -- then sticking ads all over the place (you don't think at the end of programs is the only place they intend to put them do you?) isn't going to be enough to help them.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

dswallow said:


> Series 3 owners are next on the ad hit list, you know.
> 
> Just wait until advertisers get approached by TiVo to buy scroll-time on the Series 3 front panel displays.


And I'll welcome this on my S3 just like I did on my 3 S2s



dswallow said:


> There's also plenty of animated backgrounds that could be swapped out for backgrounds with advertising; anyone care to guess how long it'll take to sell that real estate off?
> 
> And certainly the progress bar doesn't need to be a solid color, it could be a company logo pattern, like a Coca-Cola swirl...
> 
> ...


You must have missed the part where I said:


GoHokies! said:


> That would suck, and there would be a mass exodus of subscribers. Yes, I honestly think that Tivo knows that and wouldn't go that far. Do you honestly think that Tivo would be that foolish?
> 
> Instead, I just focus on what is actually happening now, and not speculating on what may happen with the ads in the future. So far, not offended.


I seriously doubt that Tivo will take it that far. If they do, I'll reconsider at that point but at this point there's no sense in running around like Chicken Little talking about the sky falling because of this one unobtrusive ad that your DirecTivo probably won't even get.



johndierks said:


> If they want to add ads to the system, make it a choice. It's dumb that I have no choice whether 'features' get added to my box. Why don't they create some new features and then prompt the user:


This has been discussed over and over again around here - for all the complaining about Tivos Customer service/Tech Support, how much worse do you think it would be with dozens of different software versions with different feature sets? Getting "upgrades" is something that you agreed to when you subscribed. Don't like it? Go somewhere else.



Billy66 said:


> Even not being obtrusive, TiVo fans should be a little pissed. I mean how long do you wait for real features and real fixes? Undelete took about 4 years after the hackers gave it to us. Still no free space indicator. No development on "Teach TiVo" or things that can be useful. New features and fixes take forever.
> 
> This though, this gets the fast track push right to your box. Even if you ignore them completely, don't you think that TiVo should be working on DVR features for you? I mean service costs like 20 bucks a month now.


Not for most of us around here, the 20 bucks a month is going to be a pretty small crowd, I think... There are just so many ways to get it cheaper. As far as the other things, how long do you think that Tivo was working on this? There was just a pretty good update for the S2, and we should see another one for the S3 in the near future. If Tivo had any intention of providing a FSI, I'm sure that they would have written one in by now. At that point, it's not a resources decision on their part...



RoyK said:


> I have 3 subscriptions to TiVo which costs me a total of $322.20/year and my rates are lower than the new ones being charged! For that I receive program schedule updates which cost TiVo very little and periodic poorly written and mostly untested software "updates" which I neither requested nor want.


See above on not wanting the updates. As far as not testing, you're either being deliberately misleading or completely ignorant of the facts. It's common knowledge that Tivo does Beta testing and it's covered by some strict NDAs, so you're not going to hear about them. Just becuase you don't see them doesn't mean that they don't exist.



RoyK said:


> If TiVo can't make money with subscriptions at those rates -- that's enough to buy a new copy of Windows XP for each machine each year -- then sticking ads all over the place (you don't think at the end of programs is the only place they intend to put them do you?) isn't going to be enough to help them.
> 
> 
> > Measuring what you pay in terms of another software product does nothing to change how much money you give Tivo each year and nothing to change the fact that they have to increase their revenue stream. Every little bit of revenue helps - it remains to be seen whether this will be enough.


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## mike3775 (Jan 3, 2003)

GoHokies! said:


> That would suck, and there would be a mass exodus of subscribers. Yes, I honestly think that Tivo knows that and wouldn't go that far. Do you honestly think that Tivo would be that foolish?
> 
> Instead, I just focus on what is actually happening now, and not speculating on what may happen with the ads in the future. So far, not offended.


Yes I do think Tivo would be that foolish. Tivo has not had any luck with ads so far. No matter how they do it, not many actually watch them. Which is why I can see Tivo doing what I posted earlier, its only a matter of time.

And hate to say it, but once they put ads in like that, it is ok to speculate what may happen, because people have seen what happens when ads do not make the money that is promised.

And look at DVR's from cable companies. They may not be as great as a Tivo, but guess what, the subscription numbers are rising, and cable companies are somehow making money off of them, and they charge less than what Tivo does. Sure they may not have the T2T features or the networking features, but guess what, not everyone wants them. Another turn off to Tivo is the subscription prices. Why should someone who is content with a Comcast DVR(which has no ads) who is paying $5 a month to Comcast, want to switch to a Tivo and pay anywhere from $13-$20 a month to get basically the same DVR that they get now for $5? Not many will.



> Every little bit of revenue helps - it remains to be seen whether this will be enough.


I already know the answer from experiance, it will not be enough. Why? Because if Tivo is only getting paid when they are viewed, giving the option to view them isn't enough, they will eventually have to force us to watch them. And right now, I have never watched any ads that appear on my Tivo DVR. And I know I am not alone in that either. I have no interest in the ads regardless of what they are for.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mike3775 said:


> what happens when they are no longer unobtrusive and pop up on every screen you use to access now playing? Imagine hitting the Tivo button, and instead of seeing the now playing list immediately, you see a screen for an ad and you have to select no to get to the now playing list, then after doing that, you select your program,


 that was actually TiVo Inc's first try at advertising. An ad that popped up before now playing(I think). They lost subscribers, realized the mistake was making people hit an extra remote button and have never gone back to that model. They know that is a line they can not cross and all the chicken Little's running around crying "Slippery slope" does not make it a slippery slope.

If everyone who posted in this forum saying they do not like ads on the TiVo DVR actually cancelled their service while telling TiVo why, then TiVo inc. would take a new direction. I suspect though that the posters will just grumble here but never really do anything about it because the ads *never really change how they use the TiVo DVR anyway*


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> As far as not testing, you're either being deliberately misleading or completely ignorant of the facts. It's common knowledge that Tivo does Beta testing and it's covered by some strict NDAs, so you're not going to hear about them. Just becuase you don't see them doesn't mean that they don't exist.


Ref version 7.3 - I rest my case


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Ref version 7.3 - I rest my case


we all know that 7.3 had KidZone and that was a partner deal with 3rd parties. No matter what TiVo did or did not know they had a deadline and had to release if no showstoppers.

There is no way you can claim to know what testing TiVo did, what business decisions they made and how much they spend on it other than the final total in public filings.

For all we know this ad at delete screen was aprt of 7.3 but use was delayed until a fix for the issues in 7.3 was released as that was given prioroity,

You have a weak case but again if you stopped using the TiVo DVR in favor of something else then we might start taking this more seriously


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## mike3775 (Jan 3, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> You have a weak case but again if you stopped using the TiVo DVR in favor of something else then we might start taking this more seriously


There have been plenty of threads here about people cancelling Tivo and going to cable company DVR's or Media Edition PC's though. There have been people who have cancelled. In fact when someone does post it, the sharks jump on the person and say things like "oh enjoy your crappy cable co DVR and not have this or that" all the time.

But people have cancelled Tivo before and people will cancel Tivo if the ads get to intrusive.

I can see Tivo going back down that slippery slope myself, becuse if they need money, they will have to do something to get people to actually view the ads, and if they are not paid unless the ads are viewed, Tivo isn't going to make much money on the ads if very few of the subscribers actually watch the ads.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

A one-liner promoting an ad you DON'T have to watch or do ANYTHING to avoid! What a stupid thing to whine about!


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## mike3775 (Jan 3, 2003)

JohnBrowning said:


> A one-liner promoting an ad you DON'T have to watch or do ANYTHING to avoid! What a stupid thing to whine about!


Right now we don't have to, but unfortunately I do not see that staying that way either.

I said earlier I do not care right now, but I know what is going to happen eventually, because the ad market is very weak right now, and if Tivo only gets paid per ad view, they will have to do something to get more people to view the ads eventually otherwise this deal will be a flop.


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## kmill14 (Dec 11, 2006)

First off...do you think the "generic" dvrs by the cable/sattelite won't eventually try segmented advertising as well? And they may very well make it more intrusive.


Also, how are people viewing this as intrusive at all? I don't get it. You don't actually watch an ad unless you choose to. You can simply exit the final screen without ever watching a single second of an ad you don"t want to watch. I applaud Tivo for coming up with this idea, verses alternative advertising methods.


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

dswallow said:


> Over the years, all that's happened is TiVo charges higher and higher prices for service; and TiVo adds more and more intrusive advertising to the service. And that's ignoring the money they make on selling viewing data, which since it's non-intrusive, doesn't bother me at all.


So if TiVo would find a way to subliminally push out ads, you would be OK with it?


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## Tysonation (Nov 12, 2005)

Advertising is everywhere you are, whether you like it or not and whether you know it or not. Magazines are now ads, TV shows are now ads. I fail to see how this is obtrusive at all.


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## jlb (Dec 13, 2001)

I saw one of the new ads last night. I have no problem at all with it. It is unobtrusive, you don't have to select it if yo don't want to, and you never know, we might just be surprised some day with something in there that we want.

To the folks at TiVo: This works great. You implemented this very well.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

dswallow said:


> There's also plenty of animated backgrounds that could be swapped out for backgrounds with advertising; anyone care to guess how long it'll take to sell that real estate off?


I've always wondered why they don't already do that. I just don't understand what the problem is with "newspaper-like" ads that require no effort at all by the user in order to use the product in the same manner as if there were no ads.

Then again, I'm from a country where all the professional sports teams uniforms are covered with ads.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

MickeS said:


> I just don't understand what the problem is with "newspaper-like" ads that require no effort at all by the user in order to use the product in the same manner as if there were no ads.


Haven't seen one of these myself yet, but if they're really as simple as what Greg posted, that won't bother me.

I agree that "newspaper"-like ads won't faze me, but I'd go one further than just "use the product in the same manner" and say that I'd be annoyed if they used screen real estate with any real "usability" value to display ads (for example, reducing the amount of the guide that displays by placing an ad, or a program info screen, or the like.) That was always my beef with ads on the Comcast cable boxes.

This seems to pass my tests - my remote-control muscle memory doesn't need to be changed, and the ad takes up just a litle space that wasn't previously usefully occupied.

And, yes, I have watched ads that TiVo has placed on my boxes, although usually just the movie trailers...


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> still looking for that Victoria's Secret ad


Too bad - it's a Secret ad.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

So there are no serious or worthwhile complaints in this thread from anyone other than the "Slipper Slop" BS crowd. Big surprise.

Unobtrusive advertising that I can choose whether or not to view - not a problem!


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

dswallow said:


> Actually in a sense I don't. The DirecTV w/TiVo units aren't littered with advertising.


True, but if DirecTV can use this same functionality to reduce its rates or at least keep them at bay, I'd welcome them. At least as they seem to be used at the moment.

How many DVDs do you buy or rent that have the ads at the front that can't be skipped' At least with the TiVo version you can just go about your business.


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## Downidb (Sep 6, 2005)

mike3775 said:


> Y\ Why should someone who is content with a Comcast DVR(which has no ads) who is paying $5 a month to Comcast, want to switch to a Tivo and pay anywhere from $13-$20 a month to get basically the same DVR that they get now for $5? Not many will.


Actually the Comcast DVR now has ads. They showed up briefly about 2 months ago, then disappeared, now they're back with a vengeance. Basically instead of seeing 5 channels of guide data, you now see 4 channels and an advertising banner. Plus you're forced to click past the ad if you scroll down a page or up a page moving channel by channel. So basically they took away part of the functionality of the guide and part of the information.

I was planning on trying to hold out until the TiVo software was available on a Comcast box, but now I may be forced to go ahead and move to a S3.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

JimSpence said:


> True, but if DirecTV can use this same functionality to reduce its rates or at least keep them at bay, I'd welcome them. At least as they seem to be used at the moment.


If they reduced rates or kept them at bay that would be one thing. I think that there has been like a 40% increase in rates for some.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

JimSpence said:


> True, but if DirecTV can use this same functionality to reduce its rates or at least keep them at bay, I'd welcome them. At least as they seem to be used at the moment.
> 
> How many DVDs do you buy or rent that have the ads at the front that can't be skipped' At least with the TiVo version you can just go about your business.


TiVo ads have increased TiVo's service prices. My whole point was that the advertising should decrease them.

I've never rented a DVD in my life.

I don't buy any DVD's that can't skip past ads at the beginning. I've gotten a few of them free that can't skip ads at the beginning. Notice how there's a discount involved when ads are present?


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

dswallow said:


> I don't buy any DVD's that can't skip past ads at the beginning. I've gotten a few of them free that can't skip ads at the beginning. Notice how there's a discount involved when ads are present?


How do you know before you buy them? Do you rent all DVDs first and then purchase later? Not trying to be snarky, just wondering if there is a way to tell.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Series 3 owners are next on the ad hit list, you know.


Of course, and?



> Just wait until advertisers get approached by TiVo to buy scroll-time on the Series 3 front panel displays.


Too small to bother - I have decent vision and I can't read it from where I sit anyway. So they can put what they want on there. ;-)



> There's also plenty of animated backgrounds that could be swapped out for backgrounds with advertising; anyone care to guess how long it'll take to sell that real estate off?


Probably a while. It'll take another software change to make any kind of clickable banners or something. As long as they don't interfere with standard usage - and they don't do something like make the menus smaller to make more room for ads - it would work. The only thing that's ever bugged me about the TiVo Central Promos is the variation in the UI - how it can be there or not be there. I'd just like it to always be there.



> And certainly the progress bar doesn't need to be a solid color, it could be a company logo pattern, like a Coca-Cola swirl...


Or just put a company logo up "This recording sponsored by Pepsi!"



> And why not animate those little icons like the check marks when something is selected; surely no one will object if we get a 1 second pop-tart ad instead of a check mark everytime an item is selected.


That's just stupid. You don't mix ads into the UI. That'd never pass usability testing.



> None of those "interfere" with your use of the unit; would any of that sort of stuff bother you if TiVo implemented them and sold the ad space it represented?


Except for the last one, which I do think 'interferes' with use because it messes with the UI conventions, it doesn't sound bad. It would matter more *how* it is done. A simple static at on a menu screen that isn't chewing up a lot of screen real estate, not bad. Squeezing the menus down to use a quarter of the screen for an ad - bad.



> At least if TiVo had an option to pay for being ad-free you'd be getting something for your extra money.


Well, I'm not going to pay more to avoid something that doesn't bug me in the first place.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Einselen said:


> How do you know before you buy them? Do you rent all DVDs first and then purchase later? Not trying to be snarky, just wondering if there is a way to tell.


If I ever ended up with one, it'd go back. As far as I know there's no way to tell from the box, though I'm sure people would make some sort of comment about it on Amazon or other sites that all user reviews.

Considering I've had it happen on free DVDs I've gotten -- like various offers for pizza deliveries that come with your choice of a free DVD -- so I suspect the cheaper the DVD, the more likely you might suffer through mandatory ads.

I have no problems with ads being there; as long as some key on the remote lets me skip immediately past them to the main menu. But if they're mandatory, I better have been informed up front and would only accept it if there were an obvious discount offered for that intrusion.

Frankly the FBI warning annoys me. It's rarely possible to get around that one, no matter what tricks I might try... well, except by just going directly to the right VOB file on a PC player. Of course, I also get a chuckle when I see that FBI warning displayed on a non-region 1 DVD, too. Talk about completely meaningless crap displayed on-screen just because someone once displayed it on-screen...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

megazone said:


> Well, I'm not going to pay more to avoid something that doesn't bug me in the first place.


But you're OK with paying more AND getting ads. Strange.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

dswallow

Just thought of this. How do you feel about movies and the ads in front of them and I am not just talking about the trailers. Do you not go to movies anymore (I rarely go myself, I have BBO and Tivo with on-campus movie channel plus free movies each week on-campus so I am pretty set) or do you show up like 10 min into the start to skip all the ads and trailers?

E


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> This though, this gets the fast track push right to your box. Even if you ignore them completely, don't you think that TiVo should be working on DVR features for you? I mean service costs like 20 bucks a month now.


I think they need to do what keeps them in business. I've been a TiVo users for about 5 years now and they've continually added new features. There are always people who aren't happy because the feature *they* want hasn't been added. And the same silly "But there is a hack for it" often comes up as justification. Hacks don't have to pass QA and usability testing. They don't have to be maintainable and ensure they won't interfere with any other development.

There are two kinds of features - consumer oriented and industry oriented. TiVo works on both simultaneously. And saying this had a 'fast track push' is silly - do you know how long they've been working on it? They might've started last year for all you know, and only announced it when they had something ready to go.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

dswallow said:


> But you're OK with paying more AND getting ads. Strange.


I'm not paying more - even if I bought a new box today I wouldn't, because I'd buy 3-years pre-paid. If someone else wants to buy 1-year monthly, let them.

And I just don't look at it like you do. I see the ad revenue as helping keep the subscription fees from being even higher. I think *everyone* is compensated for the ads already.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

mike3775 said:


> Tivo has not had any luck with ads so far. No matter how they do it, not many actually watch them.


And how did you get access to this information?

TiVo themselves, on the con calls, have stated that response to the ads has been positive. And more and more advertisers have been attracted to TiVo because of the success to date. So 'not had any luck' sure doesn't seem to agree with their statements.



> And hate to say it, but once they put ads in like that, it is ok to speculate what may happen, because people have seen what happens when ads do not make the money that is promised.


Bull****. Plain and simple, bull****. Because some websites did it means TiVo will do it - it isn't even the majority, or even a noticeable minority for that matter, of sites that heavily embraced pop-ups. Sure, some high profile sites did it, but it is already dying because all it did was get all the major browsers to include pop-up blockers by default.

Slippery slope arguments are almost always bull****. People have been saying that TiVo is going to force ads on users since at least 2001, which is when I really started following the communities. One of the first promo systems TiVo uses were Pre-TiVo Central Messages - PTCMs. They still use them for TiVo-related messages, like software updates, but that's all these days. People didn't react well to promotions when they were just trying to access TiVo Central. TiVo switched to the Gold Star Promos. They've been very careful to keep advertising from interfering with the use of the product. I really don't believe TiVo would start putting forced ads before playback of a recording, etc.

There is no evidence, based on TiVo's behavior to date, that they're going to do any kind of obtrusive advertising.



> And look at DVR's from cable companies. They may not be as great as a Tivo, but guess what, the subscription numbers are rising, and cable companies are somehow making money off of them, and they charge less than what Tivo does.


Because they DVR fees is ON TOP of the standard box rental fee. Their DVRs are based directly on the standard STBs. They already charge an STB rental fee - and usually a fee to rent the remote too - so they just charge the differential for having a DVR. They also have a much lower SAC. And they spread the cost of the DVR over a number of years.



> Sure they may not have the T2T features or the networking features, but guess what, not everyone wants them.


That's nice - do you have a point? If all you mean is that not everyone is going to buy a TiVo because some people will be happy with a cable DVR - thanks for the blinding flash of the obvious.



> Another turn off to Tivo is the subscription prices. Why should someone who is content with a Comcast DVR(which has no ads) who is paying $5 a month to Comcast, want to switch to a Tivo and pay anywhere from $13-$20 a month to get basically the same DVR that they get now for $5? Not many will.


Because some people DO want the extra features and a better UI. I've tried the cable DVRs. They sucked. The SA8300 is one of the worst pieces of consumer electronics I've ever had the displeasure of using. I don't even care if it worked correctly - and it didn't, it still sucked so badly I'd rather pay for a Series3 than allow it in my home. TiVo is not going to be the market leader, period. No one expects them to be. It is not going to be the cheap box that sells the most volume, it is aimed at people who want a better DVR and more features.

Also, you should keep up, Comcast has banner ads on their STBs and DVRs. They trialled them a while back, and now they're back for good it seems. Remember that Comcast and Cox also have deals with TiVo to develop and advertising platform to present ads on their STBs - independent of the TiVo software. Why do you think they did that?

And the Comcast ads are a hell of a lot more obtrusive than TiVo's.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Ref version 7.3 - I rest my case


Weak case.

Over 7 years of software releases, which covers quite a number of them, you point to arguably the worst release and rest your case. What does that prove? That they can screw up like everyone else? No kidding.

We know that TiVo had partnership agreements tired to KidZone, and they'd promised it would be out in the summer. Also that the RadioShack distribution deal was directly tied to KidZone. So it looks like engineering was pressured into shipping the code before it was fully baked. Someone made a judgment call on the software being ready to ship - and decided it was good enough in light of the overall situation. Maybe that was the wrong call - or maybe delaying the software would've caused a major deal to collapse and done more damage to TiVo than shipping the software.

I don't think shipping 7.3 is going to hurt them in the long run. It is a speed bump. 8.1 seems to have fixed most of the issues, and greatly improved performance.

Mistakes happen.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

peteypete said:


> Big deal. It's unobtrusive. Some people will watch. Tivo can deploy to all shows for one advertiser.


That seems to sum it up for most folks.


Tom Rogers in Media Daily News said:


> Rogers says ad-skipping has become so rampant that a broadcast network CEO told him his company has lost $100 million in potential revenue due it. Source- (free sub)


Look- whether Tivo lives or dies/mutates into something hideous, ad skipping technology is here to stay and consumers will simply get it from other products if they can't from Tivo. Ad skipping is only going to increase with time as the technology becomes more pervasive and the advertising world will simply have to adjust. They can do this adjustment now, or they can continue to take the ignore it/ hope it will go away path. The second path simply loses money and achieves nothing. If Tivo goes away, then consumers will simply turn to MCE, MythTv, or carrier DVRs.

By proactively working to deal with the problem, Madison avenue can control events as they unfold. For one, they currently have some control about who they want to deal with. Respectively: Microsoft (MCE), video anarchists (Myth), or the carriers who are not known for playing softball on advertising deals? If you want to manage your fate, deal with the partner most maleable to your point of view.

Tivo.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

It all looks perfectly reasonable to me.

I don't get why someone wouldn't have RtRNR sitting on their hard drive waiting to be watched using TiVoToCome



> Originally Posted by Tom Rogers in Media Daily News
> Rogers says ad-skipping has become so rampant that a broadcast network CEO told him his company has lost $100 million in potential revenue due it. Source- (free sub)


$100M doesn't sound like much...this year they'll probably reinstate those revenues with DVR views counting toward eyeballs.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

mike3775 said:


> There have been plenty of threads here about people cancelling Tivo and going to cable company DVR's or Media Edition PC's though.


 yet still you use the TiVo even though you "know" the ads will get worse


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## severoon (Dec 11, 2006)

I think that this is a mistake. Not that it's enough to turn people off TiVo, but it's simply a move in the wrong direction. It's a step down the path of hitting people with ads they don't necessarily want to see and haven't asked for, and it's based on the presumption that people don't want to see ads.

This is wrong. In fact, I want to see ads. I just don't want to see ads for things I'm not interested in. Right now, I'm buying a new car. I would like nothing more than to sit down with an indexed list of advertisements and page through them to get information on all the models I'm interested in, $20k-$40k sedans, CUVs, and SUVs. A few weeks ago I bought my wife a food processor, and my mom a toaster. I would've loved to sit down and go through the latest offerings on those and other kitchen gadgetry.

Companies should release their commercials on an RSS feed, the same ads they're pushing out to regular TV. Then TiVo could index them by keyword, company, etc, much the same way shows are currently indexed by title, actor, director, keyword, etc. I could go onto my TiVo and tell it to start downloading commercials for kitchen gadgets and cars in my area of interest, a la TiVoCast. Big plus: every time an ad is downloaded to my unit, the likelihood of my buying that item is far higher than if TiVo randomly tacks it onto the end of a show, because in this case, I've actually requested it. If I have anonymous usage stats on my unit (i.e., I haven't called TiVo and turned them off, which I haven't), then if I actually view the ad, TiVo would be able to collect demographics on that, too and charge even higher ad rates. (After all, I may download all $20k-$40k sedan, CUV, and SUV ads, but I'm not going to look at Buick, Kia, etc. The ones I do view will have an even higher likelihood of resulting in a sale.)

The fact is that TiVo and other companies could make my shopping much easier by delivering this kind of content.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

severoon,

THAT is an idea! A good one.

Anybody listening?


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

I'm looking at the screen shot of the delete screen...Are people claiming the text that says "Win a Home for the Holidays" is an ad?

It looks like a voluntary shortcut to view an ad to me.

People are seriously upset at having to view 6 words?

-samk-


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

smak said:


> I'm looking at the screen shot of the delete screen...Are people claiming the text that says "Win a Home for the Holidays" is an ad?
> 
> It looks like a voluntary shortcut to view an ad to me.
> 
> ...


Yet put those same six words in an email and you'd call it spam....

This sort of thing won't make our TiVos cheaper but it certainly cheapens our TiVos.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Yet put those same six words in an email and you'd call it spam....
> 
> This sort of thing won't make our TiVos cheaper but it certainly cheapens our TiVos.


Ahh - but that analogy is imperfect, because this isn't an additional email you have received, but a text banner that does not alter the reading/sending of email behavious you were previously used to.


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## psyton (Dec 28, 2002)

ashu said:


> Ahh - but that analogy is imperfect, because this isn't an additional email you have received, but a text banner that does not alter the reading/sending of email behavious you were previously used to.


Then how about this analogy - your email provider sticks the text banner onto each of your incoming emails - still ok with it?

Additionally, I argue the tivo banner does alter the reading that one was previously used to.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ashu said:


> Ahh - but that analogy is imperfect, because this isn't an additional email you have received, but a text banner that does not alter the reading/sending of email behavious you were previously used to.


You're correct. The analogy is imperfect. In my email program I can mark such things as junk and be done with them never to see them again. The same with banner ads in my web browser. I have no such option here.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Einselen said:


> Just thought of this. How do you feel about movies and the ads in front of them and I am not just talking about the trailers. Do you not go to movies anymore (I rarely go myself, I have BBO and Tivo with on-campus movie channel plus free movies each week on-campus so I am pretty set) or do you show up like 10 min into the start to skip all the ads and trailers?


I probably see 1 or 2 movies a year in the theater; there's plenty of reasons I already hate going to most theaters and thus don't.

But I also look at it like this: I know they go on for at least 10 minutes past the advertised showtime (or whatever for the specific chain) and I simply act accordingly. I can cut it close by arriving in the auditorium 10 minutes past the advertised showtime or if I have nothing better to do and arrive early can just go sit and watch stuff displayed onscreen; ads or trailers or trivia, et. al.

Back when I lived in Orlando some 13 years ago I did theater performance evaluations for LucasFilm, so I saw a lot of movies. But they were usually for studios that prohibit theaters from running commercial advertisements, and even from studios that prohibit theaters from altering any of the previews or their order prior to the film; these were all things I had to specifically detail in the reports. So I also tended to know the ins and outs of that, which chains did ads and which kept the theater experience more Hollywood, and gravitated towards those chains that didn't clutter up the experience with excessive advertising.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

megazone said:


> I'm not paying more - even if I bought a new box today I wouldn't, because I'd buy 3-years pre-paid. If someone else wants to buy 1-year monthly, let them.
> 
> And I just don't look at it like you do. I see the ad revenue as helping keep the subscription fees from being even higher. I think *everyone* is compensated for the ads already.


It's still arguably a price increase since there's the future value of money that you now have to spend today to consider.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ashu said:


> Ahh - but that analogy is imperfect, because this isn't an additional email you have received, but a text banner that does not alter the reading/sending of email behavious you were previously used to.


Try to NOT read it when that screen appears.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Try to NOT read it when that screen appears.


You missed the point.

You can continue to read and sen .... gahh, never mind, you're one of those doomsday, slippery slope types anyway.

BTW, got my old B&W kid avatar archived somewhere? Would be appreciated


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> Ref version 7.3 - I rest my case


That's a pretty weak case, then since it clearly wasn't lack of testing that caused the 7.3 issue. Nice try, care to give it another shot?



mike3755 said:


> I already know the answer from experiance, [sic] it will not be enough. Why? Because if Tivo is only getting paid when they are viewed, giving the option to view them isn't enough, they will eventually have to force us to watch them. And right now, I have never watched any ads that appear on my Tivo DVR. And I know I am not alone in that either. I have no interest in the ads regardless of what they are for.


What, do you have a time machine or something? How can your experience tell you how this latest feature is going to work? If that were the case, advertisers every where should just quit, since you don't watch them, right?



dswallow said:


> TiVo ads have increased TiVo's service prices. My whole point was that the advertising should decrease them.


That's BS. First of all there is no way that you can draw any cause and effect in between the two events. Second, do you really think that Tivo should lower their prices and decrease their revenue stream given their current financial position? That's the dumbest thing I've heard in this thread (and that's a pretty tall order).


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> That's a pretty weak case, then since it clearly wasn't lack of testing that caused the 7.3 issue. Nice try, care to give it another shot?


OK then lack of quality control. Whether it was due to lack of testing or blatant disregard for the results thereof the result was the same - they promulgated garbage on their user base. Sorry, I don't buy kidzone deadlines or any other argument as sufficient justification for that action.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

RoyK said:


> OK then lack of quality control. Whether it was due to lack of testing or blatant disregard for the results thereof the result was the same - they promulgated garbage on their user base. Sorry, I don't buy kidzone deadlines or any other argument as sufficient justification for that action.


Are you unable to read? Tivo had an agreement to ship 7.3 with KZ when they did. They did the best job getting out the bugs as they could with the time that they had. Or, are you implying that Tivo should just fail to live up to their comittments and get taken to court?

In any event, that's one software release out of many, and it's already been fixed. Can we move on now?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> Are you unable to read? Tivo had an agreement to ship 7.3 with KZ when they did. They did the best job getting out the bugs as they could with the time that they had. Or, are you implying that Tivo should just fail to live up to their comittments and get taken to court?
> 
> In any event, that's one software release out of many, and it's already been fixed. Can we move on now?


I read quite well actually. You suggested another shot. I made it and stand by it.

Yes, lets move on.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

RoyK said:


> Yes, lets move on.


I say we move to China!


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

> Hate it, hate it, hate it. Yes, it's just one line, one email, one button press, NOW. Slippery slope, people.


We've gone from just one line, one email, one button press to ... well, one line, one email, one button press.... and it only took five years.

Gotta watch them slippery slopes folks.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

dswallow said:


> If I ever ended up with one, it'd go back.


good luck with that.

"Hello, I'd like to return this DVD that I bought yesterday and have opened..."


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

GoHokies! said:


> Are you unable to read? Tivo had an agreement to ship 7.3 with KZ when they did. They did the best job getting out the bugs as they could with the time that they had. Or, are you implying that Tivo should just fail to live up to their comittments and get taken to court?


I missed this one. Can you elaborate (and/or provide links)? Who did TiVo had a agreement with, and who would take TiVo to court if they missed deadline? Did somebody pay for KidZone development? More info would be appreciated.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Can't somebody just say "I don't like the forced advertisements" whether they're talking about the yellow star, the FF pop-ups, or this new form of ads? I happen to dis-like any ads when I'm paying for a service, but I understand Tivo is trying to make money. It makes you wonder where all the millions of dollars are going if they can't even break even on millions of subs. Could it be that Tivo is not lean enough? Piss poor Management? Dumbass corp. type in charge? Who knows what the reason is but in my opinion it's the same old pro-shareholder - anti-customer Tivo Inc.

Y-ASK


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> good luck with that.
> 
> "Hello, I'd like to return this DVD that I bought yesterday and have opened..."


Point me to a DVD with mandatory ads on it that I can buy.


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## greg_burns (May 22, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Point me to a DVD with mandatory ads on it that I can buy.


I thought a lot of the new DVD's were like that. Can't skip 'em. Just like the FBI warning. 

Or are these just rental ones I get? Is that your point?

Edit: reread that portion of this thread. Disregard.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

dswallow said:


> Point me to a DVD with mandatory ads on it that I can buy.


Point me to a store that permits returning opened DVDs other than exchanging for the same title.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

greg_burns said:


> I thought a lot of the new DVD's were like that. Can't skip 'em. Just like the FBI warning.
> 
> Or are these just rental ones I get? Is that your point?


I'm guessing they're mostly rental related issues; I buy DVDs regularly and have never run into this on any I've bought.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> Point me to a store that permits returning opened DVDs other than exchanging for the same title.


I'll be happy to if you'll give me a DVD title to go buy that'll have this problem so I can return it and prove to you it's possible.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> Can't somebody just say "I don't like the forced advertisements" whether they're talking about the yellow star, the FF pop-ups, or this new form of ads? Y-ASK


if they were forced ads I would hate them, but I have not found any of them to force me to do anything so I do not see them as forced ads


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

dswallow said:


> I have no problems with ads being there; as long as some key on the remote lets me skip immediately past them to the main menu.


Not directly to the main menu, but *USUALLY*, on DVDs with "unskippable" ads, you can:
1) hit chapter-forward one or a bunch of times to get to the menu
or
2) hit stop then play to get to the menu

even when the 'dvd menu' button is blocked.

Not always, some are completely locked, and those tick me off.. though my XS32 sometimes lets me FF when a 'regular' DVD player wouldn't let me FF.. and I can see the time bar for how long it's going to play so that probably makes me slightly less annoyed than an indeterminate wait.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

severoon said:


> I think that this is a mistake. Not that it's enough to turn people off TiVo, but it's simply a move in the wrong direction. It's a step down the path of hitting people with ads they don't necessarily want to see and haven't asked for, and it's based on the presumption that people don't want to see ads.
> 
> This is wrong. In fact, I want to see ads. I just don't want to see ads for things I'm not interested in. Right now, I'm buying a new car. I would like nothing more than to sit down with an indexed list of advertisements and page through them to get information on all the models I'm interested in, $20k-$40k sedans, CUVs, and SUVs. A few weeks ago I bought my wife a food processor, and my mom a toaster. I would've loved to sit down and go through the latest offerings on those and other kitchen gadgetry.
> 
> ...


Sounds a bit like Product Watch to me, which I guess everyone else has forgotten about by now.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ashu said:


> BTW, got my old B&W kid avatar archived somewhere? Would be appreciated



















I didn't miss the point.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

dswallow said:


> It's still arguably a price increase since there's the future value of money that you now have to spend today to consider.


No, Mega was right - he's not paying more, he's just getting less - less time that is for his $299 which used to buy Lifetime.

See there was no price increase, just time compression.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Y-ASK said:


> Who knows what the reason is but in my opinion it's the same old pro-shareholder ... Tivo Inc.
> 
> Y-ASK


Pro which shareholder?????????????


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

HDTiVo said:


> Pro which shareholder?????????????


Maybe not clear but I was refering to the corporate mentality that tries to put the shareholders above all else. Screw the employees, screw the customers, screw everything but the bottomline. Squeeze everything you can and show the most profit possible even if that means fudging the books a little with rebates, etc. Never mind running a sound company with happy employees and customers...

Y-ASK


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

dswallow said:


> I'm guessing they're mostly rental related issues; I buy DVDs regularly and have never run into this on any I've bought.


You have to be quick, but if you miss a few second window to hit the menu button some DVD's will roll out a series of trailers that can't be skipped.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Y-ASK said:


> Maybe not clear but I was refering to the corporate mentality that tries to put the shareholders above all else. Screw the employees, screw the customers, screw everything but the bottomline. Squeeze everything you can and show the most profit possible even if that means fudging the books a little with rebates, etc. Never mind running a sound company with happy employees and customers...
> 
> Y-ASK



When have you ever seen TiVo do that?


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

How would I? I don't work for Tivo, but I have seen the corporate pattern before and have been a victim of it. Had a CEO that was totally clueless. Watched almost 70% of the most talented, brightest people leave (Company size of about 300) because he didn't know how to run a company. His only saving grace was that after he ran everybody off and pissed off most of his customers he was able to negotiate the selling of the business to a very large company. It is still my belief today that the larger company purchased the company I worked for based on the great name that once was and they got suckered.

Y-ASK


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Y-ASK said:


> How would I? I don't work for Tivo, but I have seen the corporate pattern before and have been a victim of it. Had a CEO that was totally clueless. Watched almost 70% of the most talented, brightest people leave (Company size of about 300) because he didn't know how to run a company. His only saving grace was that after he ran everybody off and pissed off most of his customers he was able to negotiate the selling of the business to a very large company. It is still my belief today that the larger company purchased the company I worked for based on the great name that once was and they got suckered.
> 
> Y-ASK


That is different and better than what you said earlier.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Try to NOT read it when that screen appears.


That's a problem for people? I don't even read what's on the screen NOW - my fingers know what to do without me even looking. I do it so fast that the screen doesn't even get time to fully paint before I delete and return to the menu.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

severoon said:


> This is wrong. In fact, I want to see ads. I just don't want to see ads for things I'm not interested in. Right now, I'm buying a new car. I would like nothing more than to sit down with an indexed list of advertisements and page through them to get information on all the models I'm interested in, $20k-$40k sedans, CUVs, and SUVs. A few weeks ago I bought my wife a food processor, and my mom a toaster. I would've loved to sit down and go through the latest offerings on those and other kitchen gadgetry.


TiVo already has this - Product Watch, under MPP&M. Content is limited, but that's the direction they'd like to go in. They need to get more advertisers to sign up.

I've watched a number of things out of there myself.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

dswallow said:


> Try to NOT read it when that screen appears.


Just watched CSI: Miami last night and it had an "ad" at the bottom of the delete screen and I admit I almost missed it. I then saw it and was like hmm let me play it. It was an "ad" for some show on Court TV about the people who come in and profile the criminal. Interesting show, I almost wanted to Tivo it.

Also all these "ads" are showcases, so when the Gold Star at the bottom of TiVo Central appeared was their an uproar about that? (Of which I love and have watched many of the Showcase Stars before)


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

psyton said:


> Then how about this analogy - your email provider sticks the text banner onto each of your incoming emails - still ok with it?


You mean like Yahoo does on their mailing lists? Never bothers me. I don't even read them, or really notice their there. Just like I tend not to read sigs either.

Or how Gmail puts ads on the screen? Almost forgot about those.


----------



## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

dswallow said:


> It's still arguably a price increase since there's the future value of money that you now have to spend today to consider.


But 3-years prepaid is not LESS than it was before 11/05. Even without the 3-for-2 special on right now. So how is that an increase? Even with the future value of money.

I did a table of the pricing changes, most permutations dropped in total cost. Only 3 went up measurably.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Einselen said:


> Also all these "ads" are showcases, so when the Gold Star at the bottom of TiVo Central appeared was their an uproar about that?


Oh hell yes. People went nuts about it - it was the End of Days for TiVo. Any moment TiVo was going to start force feeding us ads. Slippery Slope!

In other words, EXACTLY the same reactions as to this change.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> No, Mega was right - he's not paying more, he's just getting less - less time that is for his $299 which used to buy Lifetime.
> 
> See there was no price increase, just time compression.


The context was the 11/05 price changes. Not the lifetime drop earlier in the year. Yes, that's clearly an effective increase since $299 bought lifetime and now it buys 3 years - and normally only 2 years. 3 years is normally $349, but it is on sale for $299.

But the shuffling on 11/05 produced more net decreases than net increases.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

dswallow said:


> Point me to a DVD with mandatory ads on it that I can buy.


I'll have to check specific discs, but Disney DVDs used to have forced trailers - but then they did a 180 and made them kid friendly where they actually auto-play the movie an you have to deliberately go to the menu if you want it.

A number of anime DVDs I own have unskippable trailers for other titles at the start of the disc, before you get to the menu. Chapter skip, the menu button, etc, locked out. Except on one player I have that's hacked to ignore those instructions.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

megazone said:


> Oh hell yes. People went nuts about it - it was the End of Days for TiVo. Any moment TiVo was going to start force feeding us ads. Slippery Slope!
> 
> In other words, EXACTLY the same reactions as to this change.


That is what I thought. Well to add to the slippery slope look they did the promo, now they are adding it to the delete screen. Next is the season pass screen, then the screen to record shows, then the wish list screen. Well damn I just don't know when it will stop. Soon I might as well just have a Tivo to be able to fast forward through the TV shows to watch the commercials.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

megazone said:


> Oh hell yes. People went nuts about it - it was the End of Days for TiVo. Any moment TiVo was going to start force feeding us ads. Slippery Slope!
> 
> In other words, EXACTLY the same reactions as to this change.


Reaction was much stronger. And "slippery slope" people were correct, Tivo has been trying to "feed" us ads. It just fortunate for us that advertisers are not willing to pay for "non-intrusive" advertisement that doesn't get results. Till this day TiVo didn't make "material" profit on any type of advertisement they tried.


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## psyton (Dec 28, 2002)

megazone said:


> You mean like Yahoo does on their mailing lists? Never bothers me. I don't even read them, or really notice their there. Just like I tend not to read sigs either.
> 
> Or how Gmail puts ads on the screen? Almost forgot about those.


Ahhh, but you're not playing by the analogy rules laid out earlier. You're not comparing apples to apples; you don't pay for those. Let me try to bring you back to the point, clarify it even more and pin you down a bit, may I?

Would you be fine if your paid ISP tack ads onto each incoming email on your personal ISP email account, which was paid for, not free? To make the analogy even more similar, your ISP is struggling to turn a profit, then increases your rates by upwards of 40% _and_ also started to tacked ads onto your email through this paid for email account? Still fine with it?


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

If the ISP said "Those of you who commit to staying with us for 3 years pay NOTHING extra:, and if I liked the ISP like I like TiVo ... heck, yeah - I'd stay


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Einselen said:


> Also all these "ads" are showcases, so when the Gold Star at the bottom of TiVo Central appeared was their an uproar about that? (Of which I love and have watched many of the Showcase Stars before)


So this is just another link to Showcases or Yellow Stars?

No, but I got pissed when they dropped the TiVo-SloMo combo that got me into Messages & Settings, so I had to navagate around the Yellow Star to get there...though I never said much about it.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

megazone said:


> I did a table of the pricing changes, most permutations dropped in total cost. Only 3 went up measurably.


Which three? The three cheapest? 

How do you figure total cost dropped when the boxes dropped only ($40)-$70 and the commitments locked you in for 1 or 2 more years at $14.95 or $12.95?

My takes were a bit different:

A Little Help with TiVos New Pricing - The Bundle Story

A Little Help with TiVos New Pricing - The Retail Angle


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

samo said:


> Reaction was much stronger. And "slippery slope" people were correct, Tivo has been trying to "feed" us ads. It just fortunate for us that advertisers are not willing to pay for "non-intrusive" advertisement that doesn't get results. Till this day TiVo didn't make "material" profit on any type of advertisement they tried.


Its an interesting thought to contemplate what we might be dealing with if TiVo were to be successful selling ads.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> How do you figure total cost dropped when the boxes dropped only ($40)-$70 and the commitments locked you in for 1 or 2 more years at $14.95 or $12.95?


Like so.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

psyton said:


> Ahhh, but you're not playing by the analogy rules laid out earlier. You're not comparing apples to apples; you don't pay for those. Let me try to bring you back to the point, clarify it even more and pin you down a bit, may I?
> 
> Would you be fine if your paid ISP tack ads onto each incoming email on your personal ISP email account, which was paid for, not free? To make the analogy even more similar, your ISP is struggling to turn a profit, then increases your rates by upwards of 40% _and_ also started to tacked ads onto your email through this paid for email account? Still fine with it?


That's not apples to apples either, since I'm not paying TiVo a dime more today than I was before 11/05. And if I bought a new box today I'd pay them LESS than I would had I bought it before 11/05. TiVo only raised their prices for a minority of possible product & service permutations, they decreased prices on more permutations than they raised them on. See also. But even if that weren't the case - no, I don't have a problem with them raising prices AND adding more ads. If that's what it takes to stay in business, so be it. I, frankly, don't see why one should be related to the other. More revenue is more revenue. If the goal is X revenue and they can bring in Y from higher rates and Z from ads, I think that's better than getting all of it from Y, frankly. Not in absolute terms, but when implemented rationally and unobtrusively. For me these ads do absolutely nothing to harm my user experience, and I may even watch some of them willingly.

But yeah, if the ISPs policy was always to be partly ad supported, no problem. If I signed up for an ad free service (which TiVo has NEVER been), then I might not feel the same way, depending on how it was implemented.

Frankly I don't think the email analogy works anyway. TiVo has always had ads as part of their business model.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> So this is just another link to Showcases or Yellow Stars?


Pretty much, yeah.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

megazone said:


> Like so.


I see; you do it by not considering the cost after the initial commitment is up or assigning any cost to increased commitment periods.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> I see; you do it by not considering the cost after the initial commitment is up or assigning any cost to increased commitment periods.


I think the increased commitment periods are a red herring. How many people would be terminating the service vs. how many would continue using the service anyway, commitment or no? TiVo has a .9-1.0% churn rate. Very few people terminate the service. I don't think a 2- or 3-year commitment is a problem at all. And the 1-year commitment isn't new, that was the minimum before as well.

Under the current plan terms, when the term is up you may as well toss the box and get a new one with a new plan.


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## psyton (Dec 28, 2002)

megazone said:


> If I signed up for an ad free service (which TiVo has NEVER been), then I might not feel the same way, depending on how it was implemented.
> 
> Frankly I don't think the email analogy works anyway. TiVo has always had ads as part of their business model.


Tsk, tsk, tsk. Young grasshopper, you're mistaken. Gather round while I tell you of a wonderful place that existed a long time ago. A place known as ad-free tivo. You see, in the beginning, there were no ads, none, nada; not even the hint of them. Then something horrible happened one day, I believe it was around version 2.5.something, where the first ad appeared in the form of a star (or something like that, too long ago I can't hardly remember anymore). The rest is history. You can ask around for the details... And yes, I've been a customer that long.

But I think I've made my point to those who can understand it, and I will now step back out of the affray and back into the comfort of my lurking hole...


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Ah yes, the golden memories of Tivo 1.0. Let's go back to that, ad-free.

-smak-


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

megazone said:


> Oh hell yes. People went nuts about it - it was the End of Days for TiVo. Any moment TiVo was going to start force feeding us ads. Slippery Slope!
> 
> In other words, EXACTLY the same reactions as to this change.


And see... we continue down the slope. Just at TiVo development speed rather than the speed of gravity.


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## psyton (Dec 28, 2002)

smak said:


> Ah yes, the golden memories of Tivo 1.0. Let's go back to that, ad-free.


You seem to imply that the software would have been stagnant without the insertion of ads. Why would the software not have evolved *without* the ads?

I sure am glad not all software and/or hardware platforms work under your business model, I'd be stuck w/ ad-driven everything.


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

psyton said:


> Why would the software not have evolved *without* the ads?


Given that we've moved on to slippery slopes, it might be worth obvserving that the software doesn't evolve without TiVo Inc being around to evolve the software...

Even without continued software evolution TiVo owners have a vested interest in TiVo Inc being a going concern.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

pdhenry said:


> Given that we've moved on to slippery slopes, it might be worth obvserving that the software doesn't evolve without TiVo Inc being around to evolve the software...
> 
> Even without continued software evolution TiVo owners have a vested interest in TiVo Inc being a going concern.


Actually it would continue to evolve because of certain things TiVo would do should they become insolvent and no buyer steps up to continue operations and development. So if TiVo fails, it'd be best for everyone if they fail so miserably they don't get bought/absorbed.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

megazone said:


> I think the increased commitment periods are a red herring. How many people would be terminating the service vs. how many would continue using the service anyway, commitment or no? TiVo has a .9-1.0% churn rate. Very few people terminate the service. I don't think a 2- or 3-year commitment is a problem at all. And the 1-year commitment isn't new, that was the minimum before as well.
> 
> Under the current plan terms, when the term is up you may as well toss the box and get a new one with a new plan.


Well, you may think it is a red-herring, but I quantify the dollar amount of the additional commitment in my review, and that ability (option) to decide not to continue after yr 1 is worth something - a bit different to each person. So is the loss of the ability to re-up for only a year at a decent price (12.95/6.95) instead of 3 yrs (or 1/2 yrs at much higher prices.)

As for the disposable boxes...this is TiVo's dirty little secret in all this. Guess what churn will be when everyone does what you say... 3%, 5%? Not that that will actually happen to that extent, but... A real sh1tty deal for TiVo on the NPV of a sub.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

HDTiVo said:


> Well, you may think it is a red-herring, but I quantify the dollar amount of the additional commitment in my review, and that ability (option) to decide not to continue after yr 1 is worth something - a bit different to each person. So is the loss of the ability to re-up for only a year at a decent price (12.95/6.95) instead of 3 yrs (or 1/2 yrs at much higher prices.)
> 
> As for the disposable boxes...this is TiVo's dirty little secret in all this. Guess what churn will be when everyone does what you say... 3%, 5%? Not that that will actually happen to that extent, but... A real sh1tty deal for TiVo on the NPV of a sub.


TiVo's model back during lifetime was that evolving hardware would make people give up using lifetime boxes as they moved to newer boxes. That did not happen and the S1 is still around and using up TiVo resources from their perspective.

Given that many people keep their boxes, even with monthly subs I think the cost of not having a choice to re-up or not after 1 year is near enough 0 as to not be worth accounting for. Also the non-lifetime model is tied to the person, not the box so new TiVo hardware is much easier to move to and attains that old elusive business goal of shedding older hardware and its related support costs.

Sure those subsidized new hardware boxes will effect NPV but the bottom line also includes the back-end support costs and R&D hassles/costs of providing features across a too broad spectrum of hardware. No idea how that balances out myself but your analysis is just not complete without such numbers.

The email analogy falls down somewhat because the ad on each email increases storage space of all the emails. Also does this happen on outgoing emails? but the real kicker to that analogy is that there are many alternative Email services that are essentially the same commodity service that can feed to whatever email software you choose and the email software on your PC is what differentiates the service of email for most users.

There are alternatives to TiVo as well. My question still stands.
*for all those posting how TiVo is getting worse and the slippery slope is clear, Why are you still using TiVo??*


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> There are alternatives to TiVo as well. My question still stands.
> *for all those posting how TiVo is getting worse and the slippery slope is clear, Why are you still using TiVo??*


HELLO! Because the Tivo user interface is signficantly better than any of the alternatives. Some are getting closer but for overall functionality Tivo is the best in the Biz. It's Tivo Inc. that is getting worse...

And for those of you who keep saying Tivo has always had the idea of selling Ads as part of their Biz Model (only in fine print mind you), don't you think it kind of ridiculous of them to try and advertise a product using the fact you can FF thru advertisements in order to attractive customers who dislike Ads only to then force feed them unobtrusive Ads while they pay for said service?

And YES Zeo, no matter what semantics you want to use, if an Ad is placed where you can see it daily (I.E. Yellow Star on main menu) then you are talking about Forced Advertisements. Put the Ads in a folder (Buried Deep and not on the main menu screen) that a customer would have to navigate to and then send ONE notice telling everyone that there are Advertisements there and let them choose to go a see them if they want, then that would not be forced advertisements.

We told you all along time ago that this was the sort of BS that would be coming


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> There are alternatives to TiVo as well. My question still stands.
> *for all those posting how TiVo is getting worse and the slippery slope is clear, Why are you still using TiVo??*


Because they're slipping now and have not yet fallen?

Seriously, what does this mean? if they aren't just tickled at the idea that they should cancel now? I think the expression of dissatisfaction and concern come before outright walking out. YMMV.

Why should the user base not be concerned? What has TiVo really done to show they value subscription holders over their advertising or network partners? Why should anyone think that if TiVo could be successful selling any type of advertising that they wouldn't continue?

TiVo's incompetence at finding a way to advertise and generate profit from that might be the only thing holding them back.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Because they're slipping now and have not yet fallen?
> 
> Seriously, what does this mean? if they aren't just tickled at the idea that they should cancel now? I think the expression of dissatisfaction and concern come before outright walking out. YMMV.
> 
> ...


One of my concerns is that while advertising on the TiVo has increased our sub rates have not gone down. Also while I did not buy the TiVo to skip commercials, it is a nice feature and certainly one that TiVo advocated early on.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

I can't belive some of the post i'm reading. Why do people hate advertising so much? No matter what you do or where you go there will also be advertising. At least TiVo is trying to make it as unobtrusive as possible. 

Just wait till the future where you'll get ads in your dreams.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

Advertising doesn't seem like it could possibly pay much. I only volunteer to view a tiny number of offerings. Mostly because there have been few interesting ones. I don't mind ads being offered, though, so long as they stay relatively unintrusive. (Your definition may vary.)

I think Tivo should have worked on getting the fees down. Boxes should only get minor updates. Major new versions should only go on new boxes. Let people who want cool new features go out and buy new boxes. Those who don't can just stick with what they have. Don't go for long term commitments. Perhaps include a small activation fee to keep users from dropping and adding too frequently.

Of course, you could say Tivo tried this a little bit when attempting to sell "TivoToGo" originally, and few people went for it. Was it a bad approach, or just ahead of its time? Just a few short years ago, people were not really paying for downloaded music or using home networks (aside from perhaps sharing the Internet connection) or buying mini-NAS devices. Maybe the premium approach would work better today, but I admit it's just a maybe.

I do wonder if Tivo has too many engineers? Too many senior folks with large salaries? Huge California property costs and taxes? Could Tivo survive better in Utah? Iowa?

Most of us here want Tivo to succeed. It seems very difficult to build your DVR empire on the payments of such a relatively small user base. I don't envy their choices right now, but I do feel that any time those choices alienate your most fervent supporters, you lose a LOT of your "ambassadors". I "sell" far fewer Tivos now than at any time in the past 6 years. I also give fewer. I've pretty much stopped even talking about Tivo, because the strategies have become like shifting sand. Tivo is no longer "in love" with its oldest, most ardent supporters. There seems to be no new strategy for retaining loyalty. (It seems that inflation has really eroded rewards points. Frankly, I'd LOVE to see a "box lifetime" reward added for 30-50,000 points. Really, is it so hard to give one person a "lifetime" reward for selling 10 Tivos?)

End ramble.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ufo4sale said:


> I can't belive some of the post i'm reading. Why do people hate advertising so much? No matter what you do or where you go there will also be advertising. At least TiVo is trying to make it as unobtrusive as possible.
> 
> Just wait till the future where you'll get ads in your dreams.


Your third sentence answers your second!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bmgoodman said:


> Advertising doesn't seem like it could possibly pay much.


That's a joke, right?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Y-ASK said:


> HELLO! Because the Tivo user interface is signficantly better than any of the alternatives. Some are getting closer but for overall functionality Tivo is the best in the Biz. It's Tivo Inc. that is getting worse...


Exactly.

Oh, and pretty funny that now that hardware transition is more likely, the offering that should work best in that environment is gone, replaced by one that shouldn't work in that environment and probably will generate future losses as big or bigger than any seen before.

That's TiVo for you.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> One of my concerns is that while advertising on the TiVo has increased our sub rates have not gone down. Also while I did not buy the TiVo to skip commercials, it is a nice feature and certainly one that TiVo advocated early on.


TiVo only gets around .25-.35 a month in ad revenue. The business lines that could generate other revenues (incl. ads and DOD) have not developed, for several reasons which are mostly TiVo's fault. So that opportunity for reduction in service fee has not really materialized.

Instead of getting fees down, TiVo is working on getting them up along with their up-front costs (SAC). Doesn't make any sense.


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

MickeS said:


> That's a joke, right?


Not at all. I didn't mean "advertising" in all contexts, which obviously is very lucrative. I meant how much Tivo can make off of selling ads on 2-4 million Tivo units on an OPTIONAL basis. How many people view these optional ads? Let's be generous and say that 2 million people watch a given ad. Couldn't you get that number by placing an ad in a major newspaper? How much is that worth? I don't think it's going to push Tivo into the black. Now, if there were 40 million Tivo units, getting half of them to watch an ad could be a major money maker. But does Tivo "bleed out" before they have a big enough base to support these other things?

It's easier for me to tolerate these optional ads than to tolerate miserably slow response times foisted upon us by version 7.3.1! Stuffing more and more code into these old, underpowered boxes is going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg! Is that why Tivo is so keen on these 3 year commitments? Do they have still more useless code coming that will overtax all the older boxes? Are they hoping to lock these folks in long enough to build a new base of users on faster boxes? Hope I'm wrong....


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> HELLO! Because the Tivo user interface is significantly better than any of the alternatives. Some are getting closer but for overall functionality Tivo is the best in the Biz. It's Tivo Inc. that is getting worse...


 Hello - people are saying that the ads are taking over the interface and making it worse. This they should all go to cable company DVRs or DVD recorders that are not capable of this *if it really bothered them as much as they claim here*


> And for those of you who keep saying Tivo has always had the idea of selling Ads as part of their Biz Model (only in fine print mind you), don't you think it kind of ridiculous of them to try and advertise a product using the fact you can FF thru advertisements in order to attractive customers who dislike Ads only to then force feed them unobtrusive Ads while they pay for said service?


 and now the old [email protected] that should have been settled comes out. TiVo is conspicuously silent on doing anything to ads. Yellow stars were on series 1 units so the bulk of current subscribers well knew that ads were part of TiVo interface.


> And YES Zeo, no matter what semantics you want to use, if an Ad is placed where you can see it daily (I.E. Yellow Star on main menu) then you are talking about Forced Advertisements. Put the Ads in a folder (Buried Deep and not on the main menu screen) that a customer would have to navigate to and then send ONE notice telling everyone that there are Advertisements there and let them choose to go a see them if they want, then that would not be forced advertisements.
> 
> We told you all along time ago that this was the sort of BS that would be coming


Fine - in your opinion the ads are forced and you do not like that TiVo does this. You are entitled to that opinion *but put your money where your post is and use an alternative that does not force ads* otherwise i am led to the conclusion that no one complaining about it really does think it is as bad as they say it is


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Excuse me, but COMPLAINING ABOUT IT is just as valid a thing for a current or potential customer to do as is DROPPING THE SERVICE. 

There's no law that says anything a company does should be met with silent acceptance. If that's how you choose to behave, more power to you. But some of us will continue to express our opinions about such things so as to ensure TiVo understands they're not moving in a direction some customers like.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Excuse me, but COMPLAINING ABOUT IT is just as valid a thing for a current or potential customer to do as is DROPPING THE SERVICE.
> 
> There's no law that says anything a company does should be met with silent acceptance. If that's how you choose to behave, more power to you. But some of us will continue to express our opinions about such things so as to ensure TiVo understands they're not moving in a direction some customers like.


I did not say silent acceptance - and complaining in this forum is way less effective then informing TiVo they will no longer be used and then putting that into action. We see the same ids posting the same complaints every time. after a couple of years I just do not take them as serious but instead I see them as people who will do the easy complaining without taking any real action. TiVo is obviously being careful in how it does the ads with an implied rule of not amking anyone do something extra so I think TiVo has got all the message it will get from posts in the forum.


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## dt_dc (Jul 31, 2003)

Y-ASK said:


> And for those of you who keep saying Tivo has always had the idea of selling Ads as part of their Biz Model (only in fine print mind you), don't you think it kind of ridiculous of them to try and advertise a product using the fact you can FF thru advertisements in order to attractive customers who dislike Ads only to then force feed them unobtrusive Ads while they pay for said service?


No, I don't.

I (mainly) dislike ads in linear TV because of the amount of my time they take ... not because of some sort of general abhorence of the thought of any advertisements on my television.

Heck, the Tivo logo all over the place is yet another ad (and more obtrusive than these telescoping ads).


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Hello - people are saying that the ads are taking over the interface and making it worse. This they should all go to cable company DVRs or DVD recorders that are not capable of this *if it really bothered them as much as they claim here*
> and now the old [email protected] that should have been settled comes out. TiVo is conspicuously silent on doing anything to ads. Yellow stars were on series 1 units so the bulk of current subscribers well knew that ads were part of TiVo interface.
> 
> Fine - in your opinion the ads are forced and you do not like that TiVo does this. You are entitled to that opinion *but put your money where your post is and use an alternative that does not force ads* otherwise i am led to the conclusion that no one complaining about it really does think it is as bad as they say it is


This smacks of the same mentality that says if you don't like the way the government runs the country then move out and it's equally ridiculous. Far better to try to make the bathwater clean than to throw out the baby with it.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and complaining in this forum is way less effective then informing TiVo they will no longer be used


Stop complaining on the Tivo forum, where's the fun in that?  These types of topics make for some of the best discussions, as long as they don't get heated...

As for stop using Tivo; I've got several thousands of dollars spent on Tivo equipment and accessories, but this is the 1st time in a long time that I have decided not purchase a new Tivo. I thought about it for a long time now and I will not be buying a Dual Tuner (although my situation is perfect for it - DirectTV receiver and Analog Cable subscriber) or an S3. Never thought I would say it but my Tivo days are numbered.

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> This smacks of the same mentality that says if you don't like the way the government runs the country then move out and it's equally rediculous. Far better to try to make the bathwater clean than to throw out the baby with it.


yes, but to sit around and complain about the government while not actually voting is what this thread amounts too.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I did not say silent acceptance - and complaining in this forum is way less effective then informing TiVo they will no longer be used and then putting that into action. We see the same ids posting the same complaints every time. after a couple of years I just do not take them as serious but instead I see them as people who will do the easy complaining without taking any real action. TiVo is obviously being careful in how it does the ads with an implied rule of not amking anyone do something extra so I think TiVo has got all the message it will get from posts in the forum.


Perhaps they're continuing to be careful because of the noise level among what otherwise are their devoted fanbase.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> Stop complaining on the Tivo forum, where's the fun in that?  Y-ASK


 to be clear I never said to stop posting in any of my posts. I am simply challenging those that do not like this ad stuff to do more than complain in the forum, then I will see it as a serious problem that they truly do not like. Till then .............


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Perhaps they're continuing to be careful because of the noise level among what otherwise are their devoted fanbase.


good point. I am sure they get from this forum that making us change our remote control habits would be a very bad move. It does not seem though to stop this slippery slope you all are perceiving TiVo to be on with regards to ads. I would say the posts have had all the effect they are going to have.


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## psyton (Dec 28, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, but to sit around and complain about the government while not actually voting is what this thread amounts too.


No it isn't - this thread is analogous to debating the country's issues and trying to determine what the true facts are *before* voting, trying to see all sides and listening to everyone's viewpoint. Surely you're not suggesting you vote ill-informed, without careful and thoughtful consideration of all sides, are you? I would think that is more harmful than not voting at all...


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, but to sit around and complain about the government while not actually voting is what this thread amounts too.


That is a terrible analogy. At least I don't think the Govt. is listening in on my complaining about the Govt. in the office... Last I checked Tivo employees still read this message board. Now that I've mention it: Hi Tom, fix your stupid company... 

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

psyton said:


> Surely you're not suggesting you vote ill-informed, without careful and thoughtful consideration of all sides, are you? I would think that is more harmful than not voting at all...


Surely you are not saying this thread is a careful and thoughtful cosnideration of the slippery slope.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Nah! We're in the middle of the slope and when this new venture doesn't pan-out then we'll be that much closer to the bottom...

Y-ASK


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## psyton (Dec 28, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Surely you are not saying this thread is a careful and thoughtful cosnideration of the slippery slope.


It could be if people such as yourself could even admit the opposing view has a point. How much more narrow minded is that than some of the opinions you criticize so? Seems like you're the one not giving careful and thoughtful consideration, so if you're condeming the thread because of that, you're the one to blame...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> good point. I am sure they get from this forum that making us change our remote control habits would be a very bad move. It does not seem though to stop this slippery slope you all are perceiving TiVo to be on with regards to ads. I would say the posts have had all the effect they are going to have.


Do you have a cat? You know how cats like to explore, perhaps jumping up on the kitchen counter, for example, but if you're there to yell "No!" at them they'll respect the boundaries... but they keep trying. And if you're ever not there to say "No!" at them even one time when they try, they do what they please?

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't trying to push the ad envelope.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

psyton said:


> No it isn't - this thread is analogous to debating the country's issues and trying to determine what the true facts are *before* voting, trying to see all sides and listening to everyone's viewpoint. Surely you're not suggesting you vote ill-informed, without careful and thoughtful consideration of all sides, are you? I would think that is more harmful than not voting at all...


Precisely. I would rather leave the decision up to those better informed when I don't fully understand an issue rather than make a blind guess and have to live with my mistake. How many political races have people voted in where they decided their candidate wasn't what they thought? You also have to be able to take a stand on the issue with some conviction. I can't do that unless I really know the issue well.

Fortunately the ads with TiVo is easy to understand and DRM less so, yet I feel much more strongly about the latter. I know more about it than most as well. As for the ad landscape TiVo has been taking a lot without giving anything back and if they didn't think that 50% of their subs would disappear we'd be seeing much more intrusive ads from them. This is especially true given the apparent attitude of the current CEO. He has an "To hell with the customers, we have to make money" attitude. I wonder if he's an accountant.

I hate it when number crunchers are put in charge because typically they only see the immediate benefits of their actions and not the long term effects or the impact their actions have on the customer.

800.00 DVR's, 19.95/month subs...What's next?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

psyton said:


> It could be if people such as yourself could even admit the opposing view has a point. How much more narrow minded is that than some of the opinions you criticize so? Seems like you're the one not giving careful and thoughtful consideration, so if you're condeming the thread because of that, you're the one to blame...


what I am saying is that if those who think the ads are on a slippery slope feel they really have a point then they should act on it instead of endlessly debating it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> Precisely. . As for the ad landscape TiVo has been taking a lot without giving anything back and if they didn't think that 50% of their subs would disappear we'd be seeing much more intrusive ads from them.


and that is just my point - TiVo needs to see subs going away if you want the ads to go away.

I have cats, and I say No to them. Sometimes they stop and watch me but do not get down from whereever. I have to start getting up and then they take off. They are pushing the boundry to see how much I mean the No I just shouted.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> and that is just my point - TiVo needs to see subs going away if you want the ads to go away.
> 
> I have cats, and I say No to them. Sometimes they stop and watch me but do not get down from whereever. I have to start getting up and then they take off. They are pushing the boundry to see how much I mean the No I just shouted.


Yet you don't get rid of your cats? Why not?


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

There are two ways to make a change. You can leave and not endorse a thing, or you can stick with it and try to change it from the inside. When you really like things but want to make them better doing it from the inside is generally the most fulfilling route.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> what I am saying is that if those who think the ads are on a slippery slope feel they really have a point then they should act on it instead of endlessly debating it.


They didn't go away when the yellow star ads came many many years ago, why would they go away now?

That old slippery slope had 100 lbs of salt dumped on it long ago, because the same type of unobtrusive ad that the yellow star was, basically one line of text, is exactly what these new ones are, one line of text.

So I guess people can whine again about slippery slopes, but so far they have evidence to the contrary that ads are going to get more intrusive, they just choose to ignore it.

-smak-


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

Stormspace said:


> 800.00 DVR's, 19.95/month subs...What's next?


Hmm, I dunno - maybe $649 DVRs and $8.30 monthly subs?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

smak said:


> They didn't go away when the yellow star ads came many many years ago, why would they go away now?
> 
> That old slippery slope had 100 lbs of salt dumped on it long ago, because the same type of unobtrusive ad that the yellow star was, basically one line of text, is exactly what these new ones are, one line of text.
> 
> ...


First yellow star. Then product watch. Now this new thing on the delete screen. Nah theres no slippery slope here.......


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

so five years of hollerin' at the cat has worked pretty well, eh?

we're still just talking about one line, right? we're still at the top of the slide, so far.

Please, Keep Hollerin'!! It seems to be working! Five years and counting!!!

reposting the link would just be redundant, huh


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Yet you don't get rid of your cats? Why not?


because my cats do what they do mostly out of a survival instinct with no malice towards me, they do indeed listen most of the time and they entertain me nightly. No complaints here.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ZeoTiVo said:


> because my cats do what they do mostly out of a survival instinct with no malice towards me, they do indeed listen most of the time and they entertain me nightly. No complaints here.


Replace "cats" with "TiVo marketing" and you got the answer to your original question.


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

I saw this on at the end of the most recent episode of "Friday Night Lights". It was a link to an ad for Mastercard Home for the Holidays.

I thought it was done in great taste. Well done TiVo! Keep em coming. I hope the end of every recording has an ad someday.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

I saw something about Extreme Weather Reporting (hah!) at the end of the Amazing Race Finale (which was drab) recording. Kinda neat.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

RoyK said:


> First yellow star. Then product watch. Now this new thing on the delete screen. Nah theres no slippery slope here.......


These are all the same thing. You have to look at one line.

People were talking about once Tivo does a yellow star, then they'll put ads all over the place, force you to see ads when pausing, in the guide, etc, etc...

Still hasn't happened.

There's no slope when you're walking a straight line.

-smak-


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

smak said:


> These are all the same thing. You have to look at one line.
> 
> People were talking about once Tivo does a yellow star, then they'll put ads all over the place, force you to see ads when pausing, in the guide, etc, etc...
> 
> ...


r
i
i
i
g
h
t
!


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Perhaps they're continuing to be careful because of the noise level among what otherwise are their devoted fanbase.


How do you know there is ANY significant "noise level" among the "devoted fanbase?" Are you assuming this website is a representative sample?? Seems like an erroneous assumption to me. Fanboy websites such as TCO in no way produce anything close to a statistically significant sample.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

JohnBrowning said:


> How do you know there is ANY significant "noise level" among the "devoted fanbase?" Are you assuming this website is a representative sample?? Seems like an erroneous assumption to me. Fanboy websites such as TCO in no way produce anything close to a statistically significant sample.


Do you have any sources on this? I'd be interested in reading them. Thx.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

ZeoTiVo said:


> what I am saying is that if those who think the ads are on a slippery slope feel they really have a point then they should act on it instead of endlessly debating it.


So people that don't like what their government is doing, should leave their country rather than fight for change?


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## jmoak (Jun 20, 2000)

Stu_Bee said:


> So people that don't like what their government is doing, should leave their country rather than fight for change?


If tivo existed for the common good of the country and was duly created and elected by the populace, (for the people, by the people, of the people) then I'd say yes and agree with your analogy.

Barring that, I gotta reply, "DO'H!"



^
|
|
(denotes a funny. A good natured rib. No ill will intended)


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

I personally don't mind the ad's yet. I'll start to complain when they become too obtrusive...but I do understand those that wish to express their concern of the incremental steps towards blipverts (worst case geek reference)


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> There's no slope when you're walking a straight line.


A slippery slope simply means that things get worse over time (as a very basic definition).
There are MORE ads now than there were 2 weeks ago.
There were MORE ads after the yellow stars were added.

If you are an honest person, you must admit that things are worse for people who don't like ads. 
To say this is not a slippery slope shows that many people do not know what a slippery slope is.
I took my logic class in Toronto. It was called Logic 101. It was in my first year, and was surprisingly interesting. Tell us about your logic class. Be specific.

Also, don't tell me they're not obtrusive. I see them. They're obtrusive.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stu_Bee said:


> So people that don't like what their government is doing, should leave their country rather than fight for change?


if their idea of fighting for change is to hang out at the post office and whine about the Govt. policies then that is not much of a "fight for a change". Again I think it is just a bunch of pointless whining unless some real action is taken.

Sure people can complain all they want, that is in the Bill of rights for all citizens. My point is that every time something happens people post a ton more complaints as if that is somehow fighting this slippery slope they perceive. I say if you feel that way then do something concrete and make me/us beleive there is more to this than just another round of whiny posts same as in the past.

PS - I gave my logical demarkation form unobtrusive to intrusive. If I have to specifically change the way I watch and manage shows then that crosses the line to intrusive. Just seeing a yellow star or a thumbs up or a box with text on the interface is not intrusive. None of this changed the readability or interaction of the interface options.
If you find just seeing the ad intrusive then I promise you that posting here alone will not chnnge the fact they are on the interface. I suggest you need to take a more meaniingful action if you wish to fight for change.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if their idea of fighting for change is to hang out at the post office and whine about the Govt. policies then that is not much of a "fight for a change". Again I think it is just a bunch of pointless whining unless some real action is taken.
> 
> Sure people can complain all they want, that is in the Bill of rights for all citizens. My point is that every time something happens people post a ton more complaints as if that is somehow fighting this slippery slope they perceive. I say if you feel that way then do something concrete and make me/us beleive there is more to this than just another round of whiny posts same as in the past.
> 
> ...


I've said it before that ads as implemented to date haven't been intrusive to me. The sole exception was the FF ads TiVo test drove last year. I didn't like those at all even though I could use an undocumented feature to get around them. Also I think that was a perfect example of TiVo listening to the complaints here in this forum and listening, since it was never implemented.

I also think that TiVo marketing is intelligent enough to parse the comments here on this board and others when making decisions and that in the case of the FF pop-up ads they realized they had gone too far, so they backed off.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> I've said it before that ads as implemented to date haven't been intrusive to me. The sole exception was the FF ads TiVo test drove last year. I didn't like those at all even though I could use an undocumented feature to get around them. Also I think that was a perfect example of TiVo listening to the complaints here in this forum and listening, since it was never implemented.
> 
> I also think that TiVo marketing is intelligent enough to parse the comments here on this board and others when making decisions and that in the case of the FF pop-up ads they realized they had gone too far, so they backed off.


umm, no they did not - I saw one 3 weeks ago. In that case it was they did not sell many becasue the thing was barely noticieable at 2x or 3x FF and of course 30 sec skip just blows right by it.

so to review 
too unobtrusive for advertisers and you did not even realize they are still there (mostly for record this new show type stuff). 
Frankly I think the ads on the delete screen were some smart guy's answer to the above problem. People will be able to see the link to an ad there and lets see if we get a higher click through


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> umm, no they did not - I saw one 3 weeks ago. In that case it was they did not sell many because the thing was barely noticeable at 2x or 3x FF and of course 30 sec skip just blows right by it.
> 
> so to review
> too unobtrusive for advertisers and you did not even realize they are still there (mostly for record this new show type stuff).
> Frankly I think the ads on the delete screen were some smart guy's answer to the above problem. People will be able to see the link to an ad there and lets see if we get a higher click through


Hmm. I don't doubt that you saw it and if I see one I'll make it a point to not use that product, going out of my way if it's required. However since I haven't seen it, nor have a heard anything about it anywhere it must not be a popular means of advertising, or they were test driving it again. If it were in active use there would be some buzz about it.

I tend to think what you saw was a glitch since no one else has seen it.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> Hmm. I don't doubt that you saw it and if I see one I'll make it a point to not use that product, going out of my way if it's required. However since I haven't seen it, nor have a heard anything about it anywhere it must not be a popular means of advertising, or they were test driving it again. If it were in active use there would be some buzz about it.
> 
> I tend to think what you saw was a glitch since no one else has seen it.


no it was in active use, most people just don't make a big deal out of them anymore and I might have missed it save for the fact we were not FFing at the time. It was on a Wii commercial to highlight the larger Wii yellow star. I guess you need tp throw out all Nintendo products now.

I love the irony though of you hate obtrusive ads yet would go out of your way to make a simple thumbs up showing on your screen to be as obtrusive in your life as possible.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> no it was in active use, most people just don't make a big deal out of them anymore and I might have missed it save for the fact we were not FFing at the time. It was on a Wii commercial to highlight the larger Wii yellow star. I guess you need tp throw out all Nintendo products now.
> 
> I love the irony though of you hate obtrusive ads yet would go out of your way to make a simple thumbs up showing on your screen to be as obtrusive in your life as possible.


I've seen that and I agree it's not intrusive, yet it's hardly the same as the interpreter ads being displayed last year. If that's how it shook out then I can see why no one is complaining since it's really no more than an enlarged hit thumb up for more info. However if this is the same implementation there's no doubt its different than the original.


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## JohnBrowning (Jul 15, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> Do you have any sources on this? I'd be interested in reading them. Thx.


Only simple common sense!!


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> It was on a Wii commercial to highlight the larger Wii yellow star. I guess you need tp throw out all Nintendo products now.
> 
> I love the irony though of you hate obtrusive ads yet would go out of your way to make a simple thumbs up showing on your screen to be as obtrusive in your life as possible.


In most cases it's just a matter of walking by it and not stopping. In nintendo's case I'd have the option of going PSP since none of my kids like the new Wii. I'm hopeful none of them will want Sony however.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

There are certainly times that I have been jealous of the features that stand-alone TiVos have ... this is not one of them. 

I agree with the sentiment of many others here that the addition of ads on the Delete Program menu is obtrusive and even intrusive - just plain unsightly. Some have also speculated that there is no telling where an ad link could pop-up next. Why restrict the ad to just TiVo Central (as a Yellow-star "link") and on the Delete Program menu? Why not add an ad-link to every single menu, for even greater visibility? I don't know if will ever get to that, but when a company needs ad-revenue, what's a company to do?

Can you imagine if Microsoft started selling ad-space on the Start Menu of Windows XP?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I say if you feel that way then do something concrete and make me/us beleive there is more to this than just another round of whiny posts same as in the past.


I for one don't give a darn about making you believe anything.



ZeoTiVo said:


> PS - I gave my logical demarkation form unobtrusive to intrusive. If I have to specifically change the way I watch and manage shows then that crosses the line to intrusive. Just seeing a yellow star or a thumbs up or a box with text on the interface is not intrusive. None of this changed the readability or interaction of the interface options.


You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Mine differs greatly.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> if their idea of fighting for change is to hang out at the post office and whine about the Govt. policies then that is not much of a "fight for a change".


Guess you never saw Kevin Costner in the Postman. Several signficant speeches were made in front of a Post Office, but then you probably thought he was just whining about the suppression of civil rights.


ZeoTiVo said:


> Again I think it is just a bunch of pointless whining unless some real action is taken.


Great! So you don't like our whining. Say it once and then get on with the discussion. Your whining about us whining just make us whine even more about your whining which is more whining than you thought your whining would accomplish in 1st place.

All I have left to say is "WWwaaaa!" 

Y-ASK


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Atomike said:


> A slippery slope simply means that things get worse over time (as a very basic definition).
> There are MORE ads now than there were 2 weeks ago.
> There were MORE ads after the yellow stars were added.
> 
> ...


Maybe you weren't here for the discussions, but the slippery slope people were talking about were to obtrusive ads, not these totally harmless, barely notice them ads.

If you really get bent out of shape at seeing a line of text on your TV, then there's nothing really anybody can do about that.

-smak-


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

The way I view it is not as an ad, but as a tailored short cut to the Yellostar/Showcase. The reason I say tailored is because after CSI I got the one about the Court Investigator, after a family movie the feel good Mastercard ad is "linked". All Tivo is doing is making the end user aware and/or making it easier for them to see the showcases Tivo has already had.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Einselen said:


> All Tivo is doing is making the end user aware and/or making it easier for them to see the showcases Tivo has already had.


Now that's the feature we've all wanted. Please TiVo, make it easier for us to access the showcases. 

They didn't do it for us, that's for sure.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Billy66 said:


> Now that's the feature we've all wanted. Please TiVo, make it easier for us to access the showcases.
> 
> They didn't do it for us, that's for sure.


Well yes, but now that the users are more aware of the showcases they may get more hits and can also charge more to those who are purchasing showcase slots because 1) the ads can be targeted and 2) more of a chance people will view them


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> If you really get bent out of shape at seeing a line of text on your TV, then there's nothing really anybody can do about that.


Tivo can't do anything about that? 
I DON'T like seeing a line of text on my TV. I want Tivo to do something about it.
I think you're missing point after point.


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

Atomike said:


> Tivo can't do anything about that?
> I DON'T like seeing a line of text on my TV. I want Tivo to do something about it.
> I think you're missing point after point.


This is part of the service. You either accept it or go elsewhere.

There were 5 million posts about the yellow star years ago, and it hasn't gone anywhere. This is all very pointless unless you put your money where your fingers are and tell Tivo with your pocketbook you don't like it.

-smak-


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

smak said:


> This is part of the service. You either accept it or go elsewhere.
> 
> There were 5 million posts about the yellow star years ago, and it hasn't gone anywhere. This is all very pointless unless you put your money where your fingers are and tell Tivo with your pocketbook you don't like it.
> 
> -smak-


+1


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

smak said:


> This is part of the service. You either accept it or go elsewhere.


No.


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## Nfuego (Sep 27, 2004)

GoHokies! said:


> I don't understand... You'd prefer Tivo to not collect any advertising revenue and just raise your monthly rates? That doesn't jibe with your "Tivo should be free" subtitle - you don't want to pay the money, and you don't want it to come from advertisers. Do you think that it just grows on trees?
> 
> And did we really need a completely different thread on the same topic?


People just think everything should be free...

Maybe we should raise taxes so everyone ELSES TiVo service will be free....

Hmmmm...the page that comes up went from 2 lines (Keep or Delete) to 3 lines.

Nobody would ever HAVE to view the 3rd line option...ever...but human nature makes us curious and that is why it is ingenious.

I can't stand complainers that complain about things that are completely optional.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Nfuego said:


> I can't stand complainers that complain about things that are completely optional.


I am going to save time for people and state the counter argument even though I may or may not agree with it.

"Tivo never asked me if I wanted that extra line of text. Therefore it is not optional"

Of course, that could be said in so many variations and I am sure it will be.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> Do you have any sources on this? I'd be interested in reading them. Thx.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotlight_(logical_fallacy)


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

Nfuego said:


> People just think everything should be free...
> 
> Maybe we should raise taxes so everyone ELSES TiVo service will be free....
> 
> ...


$322.20/year for the privilige of using 3 tivo boxes is a far cry from free my friend.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Einselen said:


> I am going to save time for people and state the counter argument even though I may or may not agree with it.
> 
> "Tivo never asked me if I wanted that extra line of text. Therefore it is not optional"
> 
> Of course, that could be said in so many variations and I am sure it will be.


TiVo's doing a great job brainwashing many of its users to accept any and all intrusive advertising and price increases all for the benefit of "saving TiVo." That's probably the one thing TiVo marketing has successfully accomplished.

I really don't see why they don't just get rid of the multi-service discount; imagine the revenue gains they could have overnight. It'll help "save TiVo" so I'm sure most won't mind. Oh wait, they've started that process already, haven't they...

I got a new program for TiVo to sell to advertisers to produce income. TiVo could sell the UI sound effects. No everytime you move the cursor your TiVo might say "iPod" and whenever you select an option it sings "Coke Is It." As TiVo gains better subscriber data from viewing habits and seeing what kinds of commercials get watched vs. skipped, they might even be able to sell Pepsi on the idea, too, and target Coke or Pepsi sounds as determined by the statistical data.


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

Nfuego said:


> People just think everything should be free...
> 
> Maybe we should raise taxes so everyone ELSES TiVo service will be free....
> 
> ...


+1


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## Downidb (Sep 6, 2005)

For those of you who want to see a REAL intrusive ad, check out this screenshot from the Comcast DVR (assuming I can load an image properly). They added the advertisement at the bottom of the guide, removing a line of channel info. Also, if I was on channel 158 and wanted to scroll down to 159 (or vice versa), I'd have to click past the banner.

Sure, I'm not thrilled about the TiVo ad, but it doesn't change how I watch TV or use the guide. The Comcast ad completely changed how I navigate around the guide. My question is will Comcast lose the ad (and the revenue) for those of us who plan to buy the TiVo software on the Comcast box? I'll probably wait to find out that answer before I decide to move to an S3 or not.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

mattack said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotlight_(logical_fallacy)


Thank you. I had always wondered about the logic behind this. However there was one line in the reference that makes me wonder still.



> Online and call-in polls are particularly at risk of this error, because the respondents are self-selected. *At best, this means the people who care most about an issue will answer*;


This would seem to indicate that the self selected poll while not being a random sampling isn't that bad nor should it be dismissed.



> at worst, people listening to a particular radio host, or on a political mailing list, flood the poll.


In this case we really aren't being influenced by anyone, we are just expressing our opinion. This isn't anyone else's opinion so to me it would suggest that the former "best" situation would apply.

Also, unlike other forums this one is made up almost entirely by owners of TiVo equipment. This means that we are mature adults and not some group of adolescent fanboys complaining about realism in video games. This would further support that the TCF forum shows a more accurate snapshot of user opinion than other forums on the web. While not being as accurate as a random sampling of course it should hardly be dismissed as fanboy grumbling.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Downidb said:


> For those of you who want to see a REAL intrusive ad, check out this screenshot from the Comcast DVR (assuming I can load an image properly). They added the advertisement at the bottom of the guide, removing a line of channel info. Also, if I was on channel 158 and wanted to scroll down to 159 (or vice versa), I'd have to click past the banner.
> 
> Sure, I'm not thrilled about the TiVo ad, but it doesn't change how I watch TV or use the guide. The Comcast ad completely changed how I navigate around the guide. My question is will Comcast lose the ad (and the revenue) for those of us who plan to buy the TiVo software on the Comcast box? I'll probably wait to find out that answer before I decide to move to an S3 or not.


Ads advertising upcoming shows don't really bother me, now if it had been an ad for viagra...


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## Frankenstien (Feb 8, 2006)

I saw the Weather Channel Ad at the end of CSI NY. I think its well done. I checked out the ad for fun. Since the default option is the same as it was before its pretty easy to ignore the advertisement if you want to.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Frankenstien said:


> I saw the Weather Channel Ad at the end of CSI NY. I think its well done. I checked out the ad for fun. Since the default option is the same as it was before its pretty easy to ignore the advertisement if you want to.


My wife saw this one last night and asked if we could opt out of these service updates since they are always slowing down the TiVo. 

Generally I don't talk technology to her since frankly she's not interested, so she knows nothing about all the issues with 7.3.1 other than what she has seen. I think of her as my normal user, to her I'm tech support. So I find it interesting that a normal user would think such a thing, especially when it's one that doesn't post here.


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

How about Tivo offers 2 Plans:

1 - Monthly fee, no ads
2 - No monthly fee (free) & have-to-watch ads (no FF) at the beginning of each recording.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> My wife saw this one last night and asked if we could opt out of these service updates since they are always slowing down the TiVo.
> 
> Generally I don't talk technology to her since frankly she's not interested, so she knows nothing about all the issues with 7.3.1 other than what she has seen. I think of her as my normal user, to her I'm tech support. So I find it interesting that a normal user would think such a thing, especially when it's one that doesn't post here.


So when she said "opt out of these service updates" was she refering to the ad that she just saw or the slow down 7.3.1 Kidzone issue? You mention both in your 1st sentence so I'm just looking for clarification on what the "normal" user meant .

This is entirely a principle issue for me. I've been able to ignore the yellow star and I'm glad I havn't seen any more of the pop-up ads. I'm sure I'll just ignore this one too but I would prefer that my monthly fee be put towards making my Tivo better with excellent new features, not put towards paying programmers to include this crap as part of my system. If Tivo can't turn a profit from the millions of subs they have right now then they are spending too much on something they shouldn't be wasting money on.

Y-ASK


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

So no one has actually made any effort to let TiVo know they dislike this other than to post here? My conclusions stand then.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So no one has actually made any effort to let TiVo know they dislike this other than to post here? My conclusions stand then.


Well, when I saw Tom Rogers at the golf course yesterday I talked to him briefly about it. Does that count? 

Y-ASK


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> So no one has actually made any effort to let TiVo know they dislike this other than to post here? My conclusions stand then.


In your mind, perhaps. 
However, in reality you may be troubled to find that a lack of response does not logically prove a universal negative statement.

Sorry. 
To sound rational, it helps if conclusions are derived validly.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So no one has actually made any effort to let TiVo know they dislike this other than to post here? My conclusions stand then.


I'd argue that this is the best possible venue to on which voice our opinions because I'm quite sure TiVo does read and note the comments here and prospective new customers also do (Google TiVo and a link to this forum is near the top of the list) a fact that I'm sure isn't lost on TiVo at a time when they are trying to increase their customer base.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Atomike said:


> In your mind, perhaps.
> However, in reality you may be troubled to find that a lack of response does not logically prove a universal negative statement.
> 
> Sorry.
> To sound rational, it helps if conclusions are derived validly.


OK then - lets check this for rational thought
TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope 
TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope

no change in the response and no change in the next result. Seems rational to me that if you really, truly want to change the ad thing on TiVo you need to change the response to something more effectual.  If none of you really want to change the response, then none of you really see a problem in the results from TiVo and just irrationally post complaints each time an ad feature comes out


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

zeo,
I think you failed to take into account what MIGHT have happened if no-one 'decried' the prior commercial insertions. Maybe Tivo would have taken that to be a sign that no-one cared and inundated us with all types of ad's.
As it is, maybe their current ad's are a compromise between what they really want to do, and what the user base here is willing to accept (to difft degrees)


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> I'd argue that this is the best possible venue to on which voice our opinions because I'm quite sure TiVo does read and note the comments here and prospective new customers also do (Google TiVo and a link to this forum is near the top of the list) a fact that I'm sure isn't lost on TiVo at a time when they are trying to increase their customer base.


in other words - ads on TiVo are *not* going away simply because you post complaints of such in this forum.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

And the complaints aren't going away simply because you don't share in them Zeo.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> OK then - lets check this for rational thought
> TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
> TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
> TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
> ...


And you define a slippery slope how?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> And the complaints aren't going away simply because you don't share in them Zeo.


Fine by me- I have been on TiVo forum long enough and people have told me to stop posting a few times that I would not tell someone to stop posting simply because I disagree. That means however I also get the right to point out irrationality of said posts.

I am simply challenging any and all who feel the ads are a a slippery slope (and despite new features around them - I do not see a slippery slope because they do not make me change how I use my DVR) to actually do something meaningful about and got the expected result of people just complaining about me as well instead of listing any action other than complaining here they have taken.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Zeo, where you lose it though is not everything is a "gots to go" situation. People complain. I complain to my employees, I don't necessarily fire them right away. If they are solid and start to act goofy, I complain about it to them, I counsel them. They lose a little good will, but it isn't an empty or full situation.

Wives get angry at husbands and they complain, they don't simply walk out to show they are serious. If the complaints go unanswered for a long time, if they get worse, it may lead to that.

Your everything or nothing logic is almost laughable.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Zeo, where you lose it though is not everything is a "gots to go" situation. People complain. I complain to my employees, I don't necessarily fire them right away. If they are solid and start to act goofy, I complain about it to them, I counsel them. They lose a little good will, but it isn't an empty or full situation.
> 
> Wives get angry at husbands and they complain, they don't simply walk out to show they are serious. If the complaints go unanswered for a long time, if they get worse, it may lead to that.
> 
> Your everything or nothing logic is almost laughable.


has your employee done the same thing for 5 years despite repeated attempts to make him stop. Would you consider the repeated attempts effective and worth your time or would you look for a different strategey. It is just as telling to me that no one has mentioned any other kind of action that might be effective but just more complaining posts.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> has your employee done the same thing for 5 years despite repeated attempts to make him stop. Would you consider the repeated attempts effective and worth your time or would you look for a different strategey. It is just as telling to me that no one has mentioned any other kind of action that might be effective but just more complaining posts.


At this point Zeo, I think this employee is closer to being fired by the posters in this thread than he/she has ever been in the past. The employee will have an idea that the axe is falling when the same behavior is not met with compliants or counseling. At that point, the time for talking is over.

We're not there yet. I'm sure many who aren't in this thread are past that point.

I think we believe that this employee, if left alone for the last five years, would be way worse, perhaps intolerable. With every step some wonder if now is the time to fire him/her or not. We read your advice, "go now". Maybe you would do that, maybe you wouldn't.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

I saw this again last night at the end of "The Office".

Looks like this might become pretty common, and it makes sense to me - it's the perfect place to put an ad. It doesn't take any extra time or effort to use the TiVo in the same manner as before the ad, and it's a place where everyone who watches a show (well everyone who watches a show until the end) will see it. Well, unless you did like me last night - I exited the screen so fast I don't know what the ad was for.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

MickeS said:


> I saw this again last night at the end of "The Office".
> 
> Looks like this might become pretty common, and it makes sense to me - it's the perfect place to put an ad. It doesn't take any extra time or effort to use the TiVo in the same manner as before the ad, and it's a place where everyone who watches a show (well everyone who watches a show until the end) will see it. Well, unless you did like me last night - I exited the screen so fast I don't know what the ad was for.


I automatically pad 2 minutes before and 5 minutes after, so generally the only time I would never see that screen is when I wasn't at the TV to stop the playback once the show was over.

Fortunately TiVo isn't currently allowed to pollute my HR10-250's with such things.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

MickeS said:


> I saw this again last night at the end of "The Office".
> 
> Looks like this might become pretty common, and it makes sense to me - it's the perfect place to put an ad. It doesn't take any extra time or effort to use the TiVo in the same manner as before the ad, and it's a place where everyone who watches a show (well everyone who watches a show until the end) will see it. Well, unless you did like me last night - I exited the screen so fast I don't know what the ad was for.


It's cool that it barely registered with you as you exited your program...

Now, what if enough people activate the ads that TiVo, Inc. decides it's worthwhile to put ads in more places. At the bottom of every menu page, for example. Doesn't change how anyone uses their TiVo DVR, so why not?

How about if they put ads at the end of your Wishlist search results page?

When is enough enough, and too much, too much?

(MickeS - I'm not directing these questions at you, you're post just served as a good jumping-in point! )


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## smak (Feb 11, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> So no one has actually made any effort to let TiVo know they dislike this other than to post here? My conclusions stand then.


What about an online petition? 

-smak-


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Stormspace said:


> Online and call-in polls are particularly at risk of this error said:
> 
> 
> > At best, this means the people who care most about an issue will answer[/b]
> ...


That's exactly what limits their usefulness -- in the best case, only those with strong opinions on the issue reply to the poll, which tells you absolutely squat about the population you're interested in (many of which may not hold a strong opinion.) On the 'net today, with things like digg/Slashdot/reddit/crosslinked blogs and so on, your sample population is even more likely to be polluted, by people who are completely _outside_ the population you're interested in responding. In this case, you're not interested in seeing how "people who care most about the issue" respond, you're interested in seeing how "people who are affected by the issue" respond. Two potentially very different sample populations.

That's not to say that they don't provide any data at all, just that it's not terribly useful because you don't really know the question you got an answer to, because your sample population is poorly defined.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

drew2k said:


> It's cool that it barely registered with you as you exited your program...
> 
> Now, what if enough people activate the ads that TiVo, Inc. decides it's worthwhile to put ads in more places. At the bottom of every menu page, for example. Doesn't change how anyone uses their TiVo DVR, so why not?
> 
> ...


My answer to these questions is in a previous post in this thread. 

I don't care where they put ads, as long as I don't have to do anything to avoid them (like those annoying "Skip this ad" things on websites). SInce TiVo isn't using the entire screen for their menus, they might as well put some banner ads on the menus, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> OK then - lets check this for rational thought
> TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
> TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
> TiVo puts out a new ad feature - threads are started to decry it as evil and a slippery slope
> ...


You are looking at Tivo history with a VERY selective memory. 
Remember when Tivo toyed with placing ads during the fast-forward process? The overlaying ads disaster - remember that? It wasn't that long ago. Anyway, what happened? Outcry. It started here, and ended up being everywhere. What happened after that? Tivo started peeing down its leg, and gave up on the idea. Don't argue about a slippery slope. The slippery slope already happened - but was reversed by continual whining. The exact type of whining happening now - which is a perfectly valid response to Corporate incompetence. All we want is for Tivo to leave our boxes alone. No more ads. I want TV my way - not Tivo's client's way.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> So when she said "opt out of these service updates" was she refering to the ad that she just saw or the slow down 7.3.1 Kidzone issue? You mention both in your 1st sentence so I'm just looking for clarification on what the "normal" user meant .
> 
> This is entirely a principle issue for me. I've been able to ignore the yellow star and I'm glad I havn't seen any more of the pop-up ads. I'm sure I'll just ignore this one too but I would prefer that my monthly fee be put towards making my Tivo better with excellent new features, not put towards paying programmers to include this crap as part of my system. If Tivo can't turn a profit from the millions of subs they have right now then they are spending too much on something they shouldn't be wasting money on.
> 
> Y-ASK


I paraphrased what she said. She has no idea what the difference between the KidZone update and updates to include more ads. She just wanted to know if we could opt out of future software changes now that our TiVo's were working correctly.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

MickeS said:


> My answer to these questions is in a previous post in this thread.
> 
> I don't care where they put ads, as long as I don't have to do anything to avoid them (like those annoying "Skip this ad" things on websites). SInce TiVo isn't using the entire screen for their menus, they might as well put some banner ads on the menus, as far as I'm concerned.


How about changing up the wallpaper now and again. Coke themed TiVo's or some god awful drug ad.


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## TiVoEvan74 (Sep 11, 2004)

Off topic... (but then this thread has run 8 pages)

I noticed a comment about padding every show before and after... while I know people who did that with their video tapes because they're clocks were always off... I don't understand it with TiVo! Please enlighten me! 

We couldn't do it because too many of the shows we record are back to back and we'd hate to jump around.

On Topic....

let's see what happens with the next round of ads... we haven't noticed this yet, I was among those who were worried about the slippery slope-- and the potential intrusiveness of the ads at the end of the show... but given the screen shot here, either the whining worked, or the scope wasn't that great to start with... there didn't even seem to be an ad in the background, right? I think I can ignore the ad banner... 

So I withdraw my intrusiveness concerns... for now!


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

TiVoEvan74 said:


> Off topic... (but then this thread has run 8 pages)
> 
> I noticed a comment about padding every show before and after... while I know people who did that with their video tapes because they're clocks were always off... I don't understand it with TiVo! Please enlighten me!
> 
> ...


It's not as bad if you have a dual tuner unit. The reason to so it is that many networks intentionally run shows early or late without any advance warning. I guess he does it to take that into account and so he doesn't have to worry if it happens.


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## Sadara (Sep 27, 2006)

Interesting discussion, I'll only say I've seen them on at least a few of my shows now and I haven't been bothered by them at all. I haven't actually clicked on one yet either, but they also haven't bothered me. If Tivo can make a revenue stream out of it, I have no problem with that. If I have to read the damn thing before I can do anything else on my Tivo, then I'll have a problem with it.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

My goodness! Eight pages? Petitions? The ad doesn't affect the "delete process" at all.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

maki said:


> My goodness! Eight pages? Petitions? The ad doesn't affect the "delete process" at all.


An ad for the "Purple Pill" plastered across the side of your car wouldn't affect its driveability either but I bet you wouldn't stand for it.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

RoyK said:


> An ad for the "Purple Pill" plastered across the side of your car wouldn't affect its driveability either but I bet you wouldn't stand for it.


That is a highly exaggerated and unlikely scenario and you know it. I don't drive my "delete this program?" menu around.


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## Dennis Wilkinson (Sep 24, 2001)

Atomike said:


> You are looking at Tivo history with a VERY selective memory.
> Remember when Tivo toyed with placing ads during the fast-forward process? The overlaying ads disaster - remember that?


I don't believe that those are gone, although I haven't seen one myself recently (I'm a 30-second-skip guy). The biggest issue with those, though, and what caused TiVo to turn them off (temporarily or permanently, I don't recall) was that there was a bug that in some instances prevented the overlay ad from going away and causing it to overlap with actual program content, which justifiably triggered a lot of complaints. Not that they wouldn't have triggered complaints in the absence of the bug, of course, since it's pretty clear that some people don't want to see any advertising at all on their TiVos, regardless of how innocuous that advertising may or may not be.

Personally, none of the advertising that TiVo has done so far, with the exception of the attempt at PTCM ads several years ago, have really bothered me. They don't affect the usability of the box and are pretty easy for me to ignore (unlike some of the advertising I've seen on Comcast's cable boxes, for example.)


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## mergy (Mar 15, 2005)

maki said:


> That is a highly exaggerated and unlikely scenario and you know it. I don't drive my "delete this program?" menu around.


This is not acceptable. The tivo ads are BS. I am a lifetime plan on Tivo 2. I have referred tons of people to tivo but that ends now after I saw this crap last night on my tivo box.

Time to finally get off my butt and explore mythTV now that mythdora has made such a breakthrough.

http://swik.net/MythDora


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

TiVoEvan74 said:


> Off topic... (but then this thread has run 8 pages)
> 
> I noticed a comment about padding every show before and after... while I know people who did that with their video tapes because they're clocks were always off... I don't understand it with TiVo! Please enlighten me!


I use the "EndPad Plus" hack on my units that lets me set a soft padding for before and after each program. It won't affect the recording when there are back-to-back scheduled recordings, but if it can, it'll start the recording early and/or end it late according to the settings. And I have 3 HR10-250's so that's 6 tuners total, allowing me to spread recordings around a bit such that there aren't all that many back-to-back recordings to worry about.

Primarily it's because of the tendency these days for networks to either have 2 shows run into each other with no typical commercial break inbetween, and how they often end up running and unscheduled 1 or 2 minutes later for some reason.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

mergy said:


> This is not acceptable. The tivo ads are BS. I am a lifetime plan on Tivo 2. I have referred tons of people to tivo but that ends now after I saw this crap last night on my tivo box.


Yes, I have a lifetime S2 as well. I also have a DT, and a Humax. I've bought TiVos for family as gifts. Referred others to it more than once.

Companies are always sneaking promotions into things, especially when it's a _service_. I don't understand why people are so specifically offended by ads they can ignore on their TiVo. It's a petty complaint.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

maki said:


> Yes, I have a lifetime S2 as well. I also have a DT, and a Humax. I've bought TiVos for family as gifts. Referred others to it more than once.
> 
> Companies are always sneaking promotions into things, especially when it's a _service_. I don't understand why people are so specifically offended by ads they can ignore on their TiVo. It's a petty complaint.


Most promotions that are "snuck in" can be thrown away and never seen again. This is like someone you invited into your own leaving a continuous trail of litter in your living room. Even though it goes away on its own, it's still there, you still see it, and you can't do anything about it.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Most promotions that are "snuck in" can be thrown away and never seen again. This is like someone you invited into your own leaving a continuous trail of litter in your living room. Even though it goes away on its own, it's still there, you still see it, and you can't do anything about it.


I suppose it simply depends on the person. I'm extremely neat and organized, but I have never thought of promos on TiVo as litter in my living room. It just seems so insignificant, you have to be a real fuss to care.

I would also assume anyone who is raging about a silly block of text doesn't much care for their TiVo. I hate to bring this point up again, but it is after all a chunk of TiVo's income.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

maki said:


> I hate to bring this point up again, but it is after all a chunk of TiVo's income.


Much like the crumbs left in the bottom of a bag of cookies once you've eaten all the cookies.

Negligible, and pretty much everyone expects it to be thrown away.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

maki said:


> I would also assume anyone who is raging about a silly block of text doesn't much care for their TiVo.


You'd be quite wrong.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

dswallow said:


> Much like the crumbs left in the bottom of a bag of cookies once you've eaten all the cookies.
> 
> Negligible, and pretty much everyone expects it to be thrown away.


Okay, then lets just focus on the other point. It's obnoxious to be so outraged.


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

RoyK said:


> You'd be quite wrong.


I like my TiVos for what they are. I don't shun them for their flaws.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> I hate to bring this point up again, but it is after all a chunk of TiVo's income.


And why should you care about TiVo income unless you are stockholder or TiVo executive who wrote himself 50% performance bonus? So far TiVo burned 3/4 billion dollars of other people money, but TiVo execs made millions for their own pockets. Do you care how much profit Walmart makes?
Do you shop at any store thinking that if they don't make enough profit they will close down? Do you want to pay extra to your phone or cable company to improve their bottom line?


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## Stu_Bee (Jan 15, 2002)

dswallow said:


> This is like someone you invited into your own leaving a continuous trail of litter in your living room. Even though it goes away on its own, it's still there, you still see it, and you can't do anything about it.


Dude..what's going on at your house?


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

samo said:


> And why should you care about TiVo income unless you are stockholder or TiVo executive who wrote himself 50% performance bonus? So far TiVo burned 3/4 billion dollars of other people money, but TiVo execs made millions for their own pockets. Do you care how much profit Walmart makes?
> Do you shop at any store thinking that if they don't make enough profit they will close down? Do you want to pay extra to your phone or cable company to improve their bottom line?


I'm interested in business. I like certain businesses. TiVo is one. It's just nice to see something you like be successful.

Maybe if my TiVo started randomly stopping my shows and showing ads, I'd be annoyed. This issue, though, hardly constitutes a complaint. Again, it's obvious that everyone has their own level of concern about it.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

samo said:


> And why should you care about TiVo income unless you are stockholder or TiVo executive who wrote himself 50% performance bonus? So far TiVo burned 3/4 billion dollars of other people money, but TiVo execs made millions for their own pockets.


Why are you so bitter about this? You bring is up at every opportunity. It's not like TiVo is the only company whose execs made money before their stockholders did (if they ever did). The gutters of Wall Street are littered with much worse than TiVo. Why would you care in TiVo's case unless you are a stockholder or an ex TiVo exec that didn't get to write himself a bonus?


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

I'm not sure what all the fuss here is about. TiVo says in the service contract that you are going to get ads. And the company is going to keep experimenting with them until they find a formula that works optimally for them. ("Them" not "you.") If you really, really can't stand the ads -- and I recognize that there are people who actually feel this way -- you should use another DVR service, because it isn't going to end and it is likely to get more prominent as time goes on.

This latest approach seems like a winner -- it is very low impact on the users who aren't interested, but it gives users the opportunity to view an ad or other "sponsored content" at the end of every show. So it is much more visible than the showcases (which is good for TiVo) but it is less annoying than the "thumbs" or other video overlay advertising (which is good for viewers). But that's my opinion, and I know that others don't agree. But, again, if you find these ads offensive, you really should dump the service, because it is going to get much, much worse for you.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> But, again, if you find these ads offensive, you really should dump the service, because it is going to get much, much worse for you.


So you agree this is a slippery slope and more advertising is coming.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

maki said:


> It just seems so insignificant, you have to be a real fuss to care.


You are entitled to your opinion and, although I disagree with, it is welcome here. But if you feel the need to put other member's opinions down and call them names "a real fuss", that is something quite different. Now before this turns ugly and I tell you to go F*** yourself, I would 1st like to say please don't turn this into a discussion that turns nasty. Just because you disagree with the position some of us have taken doesn't mean that we are wrong for feeling the way we do. So how would you like to proceed from here, a civil discussion or the UFC ?

Y-ASK

Just so we're clear, he did not say we were making a real fuss, he said that we "have to be a real fuss".


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

Y-ASK said:


> Just so we're clear, he did not say we were making a real fuss, he said that we "have to be a real fuss".


You're right. My point was made by saying everyone has their personal level of concern and calling people with higher levels a "fuss" wasn't necessary. Easy to get carried away.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dswallow said:


> So you agree this is a slippery slope and more advertising is coming.


I would need to see "slippery slope" defined in this particular context in order to agree that this is one.

But to the extent that TiVo can put more ads on the boxes without causing mass defections, they will attempt with great energy to do so. Obviously their goal will be to find content and techniques that people like and respond to (as that will be what their ad clients want), while not freaking out a large number of customers with obnoxious, intrusive stuff (as that will cause a loss of customers and customer goodwill).

Again, I realize that some people feel TiVo has already crossed the obnoxious-intrusive line. For you, things will only get worse. For those who don't find the current stuff an issue, most of it will probably be at a similar level of intrusiveness. Once in a while (like with the banners) they may freak everybody out, but they'll likely pull back from those particular techniques pretty quickly.

(Speaking of the banners, I expect they will be back. They were probably too much too soon, but as people get used to the "thumbs" and then bigger "thumbs" and then even bigger "thumbs" with moving graphics, etc., pretty soon it will just be normal to see banners over the FF material.)


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## maki (Oct 23, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> Obviously their goal will be to find content and techniques that people like and respond to (as that will be what their ad clients want), while not freaking out a large number of customers with obnoxious, intrusive stuff (as that will cause a loss of customers and customer goodwill).


This will be the challenge, as it seems most people who oppose what they've done so far do not approve of advertising _anywhere _ in the TiVo interface.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

maki said:


> This will be the challenge, as it seems most people who oppose what they've done so far do not approve of advertising _anywhere _ in the TiVo interface.


For myself, this certainly is not signficant enough for me to drop Tivo or it's wonderful UI, but Tivo keeps trying to make some sort of Ad forcement work. I fear they are running out of unobtrusive options and may start experimenting with intrusive ones.

Complaining brings about public attention to the issue even though it may be considered insignificant to some. And it's fun to debate with Zeo 

Y-ASK


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ChuckyBox said:


> Why are you so bitter about this? You bring is up at every opportunity. It's not like TiVo is the only company whose execs made money before their stockholders did (if they ever did). The gutters of Wall Street are littered with much worse than TiVo. Why would you care in TiVo's case unless you are a stockholder or an ex TiVo exec that didn't get to write himself a bonus?


I'm not bitter, nor do I care about TiVo future. I just bring it up every time yet another poster brings up "TiVo needs more money". Everybody needs or wants more money as you correctly mentioned in your description of the companies in "the gutters of the Wall Street". But why should a consumer care about bottom line of the companies who are taken to the gutter by incompetent and greedy management?


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## ufo4sale (Apr 21, 2001)

samo said:


> I'm not bitter, nor do I care about TiVo future. I just bring it up every time yet another poster brings up "TiVo needs more money". Everybody needs or wants more money as you correctly mentioned in your description of the companies in "the gutters of the Wall Street". But why should a consumer care about bottom line of the companies who are taken to the gutter by incompetent and greedy management?


Because if they don't then the company will no longer exist. Is that a good enough reason. Plus the more money the company makes the more they can reinvest in the company and the "better" the software.


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## mergy (Mar 15, 2005)

maki said:


> Yes, I have a lifetime S2 as well. I also have a DT, and a Humax. I've bought TiVos for family as gifts. Referred others to it more than once.
> 
> Companies are always sneaking promotions into things, especially when it's a _service_. I don't understand why people are so specifically offended by ads they can ignore on their TiVo. It's a petty complaint.


Great logic.

I guess there are just different classes/types of Tivo users. Here is the thing, I bought Tivo as a way to remove some of the clutter and mess that has invaded the medium of TV. This recent move by Tivo devalues Tivo for me to the point that it is no longer helping me with my goals.

This is another step in the wrong direction for Tivo. It was one thing to bastardize the whole 'Showcase' area and make that worthless (yeah, show me more about the new Nissan Sentra or something lame). That initial bastardization obviously didn't work so they move to this - forcing me to see it.

Get ready for the next step when this doesn't cut it. Too bad they can't tweak this to let people who aren't bothered by this absorb more (like Mr. Petty here) while others who actually want to keep their systems less cluttered.

Mythdora has been downloaded, so seems like the whole roll your own DVR is getting much much easier.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

ufo4sale said:


> Because if they don't then the company will no longer exist. Is that a good enough reason. Plus the more money the company makes the more they can reinvest in the company and the "better" the software.


Exactly. The only reason I care about TiVo's future is because I want to make sure my box will keep working, and be updated.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

dswallow said:


> So you agree this is a slippery slope and more advertising is coming.


Quoting Tom Rogers in TiVo's third quarter results press release Nov 29...

"On the advertising front, we remain the only interactive solution dedicated to DVR viewing. First, we announced yesterday that we are introducing a new advertising product, Program Placement, which gives advertisers the ability to offer an ad at the end of a television show when consumers are asked if they want to save or delete a program, providing a whole new link to longer form material. We have developed various other forms of new inventory that provide advertisers with a way to engage with viewers as they navigate through the TiVo interface or fast forward through ads. ....."

The slope is well greased.

Link to full release here


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

RoyK said:


> Quoting Tom Rogers in TiVo's third quarter results press release Nov 29...
> 
> "On the advertising front, we remain the only interactive solution dedicated to DVR viewing. First, we announced yesterday that we are introducing a new advertising product, Program Placement, which gives advertisers the ability to offer an ad at the end of a television show when consumers are asked if they want to save or delete a program, providing a whole new link to longer form material. We have developed various other forms of new inventory that provide advertisers with a way to engage with viewers as they navigate through the TiVo interface or fast forward through ads. ....."
> 
> ...


"... as they navigate through the TiVo interface ..."

I hadn't seen this quote but it looks like I was dead-on earlier when I posted there could be ad links on every menu page.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> You are entitled to your opinion and, although I disagree with, it is welcome here. But if you feel the need to put other member's opinions down and call them names "a real fuss", that is something quite different. Now before this turns ugly and I tell you to go F*** yourself,
> Just so we're clear, he did not say we were making a real fuss, he said that we "have to be a real fuss".


ironic
"you have to be a real fuss" is about as annoying as the ad text on the delete screen.

The carefully implied yet not actually said "go F*** yourself" is about as annoying as continuously complaining about something yet doing nothing of real cosnequence about it.

I see I can still not take any posts compaling about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> The carefully implied yet not actually said "go F*** yourself" is about as annoying as continuously complaining about something yet doing nothing of real cosnequence about it.
> 
> I see I can still not take any posts compaling about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.


What do you really expect people who don't like these banner ads to do that would satisfy you? Do you expect everyone to immediately cancel their service plans and sell their boxes on eBay?

Most people will not take such drastic actions until their anger or frustration has reached a tipping point, and that is usually only reached after dissatisfaction accumulates over a period of time, and still only after considering the alternative DVRs out there.

In the views of most people who post here, I'm sure TiVo is far and away the best DVR on the market, so if they could get equivalent functionality and reliability for a better or similar monthly fee, I'm sure people would vote with their wallets and cancel TiVo and let them know it's because of the ads. IMHO, however, it's a balancing act: pissing people off with ads can be counter-balanced by adding new features without raising rates, but those same people can also be further pissed off if ad links started to appear elsewhere in the TiVo interface (the famed "slippery slope").

I see nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction here at TCF, as this is a forum that is monitored by TiVo Inc, and complaints do not go unnoticed. It has already been mentioned in this thread that TiVo scaled back some advertising campaigns based on user feedback here at TCF, so I see posting on this forum as a legitimate action until a point someone reaches their tipping point.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I see I can still not take any posts compaling about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.


I hadn't realized it was required to announce such plans to be taken seriously.

I just finished downloading the MythDora distribution and burned a DVD from it and am currently copying some stuff off one of the disks on the computer I'm going to use to experiment with MythTV to my main system, then I'll be installing MythTV on it and testing it out for a few weeks with my 2-tuner OTA HDHomeRun device.

If I'm happy with it, I'll build it out maybe with a second or third HDHomeRun.

For the last few weeks I've been experimenting with an HD Network Streaming device as well. Though there's at least one other model of this sort of thing I want to play with before making a decision about it.

In any event, the process is well underway to find a better solution than what is coming out of TiVo and DirecTV these days.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I see I can still not take any posts compaling about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.


Not a problem. Many of us don't think your postings are of any consequence either. They are amusing though I must admit.


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## TiVoEvan74 (Sep 11, 2004)

Yep, it sounds as if they are headed that way... lots of people don't care and if it ever becomes too intrusive for me, I'll sell our lifetime boxes and go for an Apple iTv with El Gato TV and a Mac Mini as the DVR. I could then easily hook up a backup hard drive and have both a massive drive to record shows on and no worries about losing TV shows.

For me, the dropping of lifetime subscriptions was the real jolt... I was on the verge of demonstrating TiVo and strongly encouraging family members to get one... after that, I dropped it. One family member specifically did NOT want another monthly fee. I suppose all the ad revenue will help them keep TiVo fees down... but who really clicks on the ads and buys stuff anyway? (Yeah, I know far too many people!)


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

I'm not sure how effective they are - every ad offered is already available in Showcases & I browse over there at least once a week. If there's something interesting I would have watched it anyway.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I see I can still not take any posts complaining about this as of real consequence exept for the one poster who was going to check out MythTv.


I not sure what more I could do to convince you of my legitimate concerns  . I've posted many time before that I'm running Snapstream's BeyondTV 4.5. Seems that someone checking out MythTV was enough for you to justify their comments. And after all the time we (you and I) have spent on this board together surely (don't call me Shirley ) you would have seen the numerous post where I've talked about my setup. If not let me refresh your memory:

Purchased the following in order to pursue a Tivo replacement:

Two Shuttle Barebone computers
Two Intel Processors 300 Ghz or above
2 Gb Memory
6 different video capture cards
2 Licenses of BeyondTV
2 IR Blasters
At least 5 or 6 200 GB or greater Hard Drives
Two External SCSI Drive chassis (6 Drives each) with Raid 5 on E-Bay used
3 DVD Burners, 2 DVD Players
Dell Poweredge 400SC setup to be a Media Server
Highend Video cards for computers
Etc.

And after all that what have I found? I've found that the Tivo User Interface is the best and it's very difficult to settle for 2nd best. It all centers around the remote control and extends from there. So when Tivo starts to mess with my menus after I've shelled out a **** load of money supporting their business model it pisses me off and I come here to complain, amongist many other interactions on this site. So does that meet your requirements to be taken seriously? If not then you can follow the advice I thought about giving our young maki. 

Y-ASK

And you know that just about everything I write is tougue-in-cheek so don't get your panties in a wade, I'm only joking with you...


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> And after all that what have I found? I've found that the Tivo User Interface is the best and it's very difficult to settle for 2nd best. It all centers around the remote control and extends from there. So when Tivo starts to mess with my menus after I've shelled out a **** load of money supporting their business model it pisses me off and I come here to complain, amongist many other interactions on this site. So does that meet your requirements to be taken seriously? If not then you can follow the advice I thought about giving our young maki.
> 
> Y-ASK
> 
> And you know that just about everything I write is tougue-in-cheek so don't get your panties in a wade, I'm only joking with you...


Well Maki may not be use to your rough jokes... That is a pretty harsh sentimnet in the online world.

You are saying the Tivo interface is the best after you have explored alternatives. What exactly about the interface has changed? Of course we all know that they have the yellow star that is ssupplied from tha part of the hard drive that has always been reserved for TiVo stuff. So no loss of recording space and one line of text on the main menu. The thumbs up ads that were so unobtrusive they do not sell many. (yes the tech is still there and they do show up still - I saw one for the Wii when it was in the yellow star rotation) and now the line of text on the delete screen and an extra option to watch it though they made sure no one had to chnage their remote habits.

So it is this interface that TiVo has repeatedly shown they will not change. By your own admission you would rather use that interface then another one without ads in it. That still says to me these ads are not as bad as all the complaining makes it seem. Have fun with that


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

drew2k said:


> I see nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction here at TCF, as this is a forum that is monitored by TiVo Inc, and complaints do not go unnoticed. It has already been mentioned in this thread that TiVo scaled back some advertising campaigns based on user feedback here at TCF, so I see posting on this forum as a legitimate action until a point someone reaches their tipping point.


the only thing scaled back was putting ads where those messages from TiVo are. The ones you had to hit select on to clear the screen and get to the main menu. That changed how the TiVo was interacted with and I am confident TiVo will not do that again and all this "slippery slope" is about is TiVo finding other peices of screen real estate it can display some text on and give you the *option* to check out the ad. 
The Thumbs are what others mentioned and there is absolutely no proof they were deliberately scaled back by TiVo. Some have just taken the fact that not many show up as that. Did TiVo deliberately scale back Product watch based on complaints? That would be the same logic. By the same logic of complaints being effective, TiVo should have TTG for Mac out. This is just a strawman argument based on supposition, not fact.
Again - I never in any post said people had to stop doing anything. I was doing quite the opposite and telling people to let TiVo know what the users were doing to move away from TiVo. Complaining does not change business facts but the userbase is the bottom line business fact for TiVo. Tha tis the one thing that will speak volumes to TiVo, inc.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> You are saying the Tivo interface is the best after you have explored alternatives. What exactly about the interface has changed?


Nothing has changed except the placement Ads. What I'm talking about when I say the Tivo UI is the best is kind of hard to explain. It's not just the menu or GUI, but the way the remote feels, the navigation thru the menus, the navigation during video play, the on screen guide, the search for shows capibility, etc. It's the way everything works together so well that provides the user with a untangable feeling and a nice viewing experience. I'm probably not doing it justice but that is kind of what I mean.



ZeoTiVo said:


> So it is this interface that TiVo has repeatedly shown they will not change. By your own admission you would rather use that interface then another one without ads in it. That still says to me these ads are not as bad as all the complaining makes it seem. Have fun with that


Can you point out in this thread where someone said that the new Ads were really intrusive to their viewing pleasure? I don't recall seeing that. I think most people (not meaning to speak for everyone) who've complained are more concerned that Tivo continues to pursue this advertising revenue course and aventually the Ads will become intrusive. I would consider Ads on several menu screens to be intrusive. For some, like myself, it's the principal of the issue. I'm paying Tivo and I don't want to pay for the development and implementation of these BS ads no matter how unobtrusive they are.

But if it makes you feel better, the Ads are not as bad as YOU think everyone is making them out to be...

Y-ASK

And I wasn't joking with Maki. I took offense to his over zealous response but we've moved beyond that, I'm good with Maki. You on the other hand can kiss my "pretty harsh sentiment" butt.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Y-ASK said:


> For some, like myself, it's the principal of the issue. I'm paying Tivo and I don't want to pay for the development and implementation of these BS ads no matter how unobtrusive they are.


Now we get to the heart of the matter. many are complaining about the principal of the issue instead of what the reality is. That was my conclusion when at first none and now some few are actually doing anything to give up a device that makes use of ads for revenue. So we are in agreement. You can kiss my butt on principal then


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Now we get to the heart of the matter. many are complaining about the principal of the issue instead of what the reality is.


What you fail to understand is that it's the reality that has caused the complaints which are based on principle, not instead of...

Y-ASK


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Quoting Tom Rogers in TiVo's third quarter results press release Nov 29...
> 
> "On the advertising front, we remain the only interactive solution dedicated to DVR viewing. First, we announced yesterday that we are introducing a new advertising product, Program Placement, which gives advertisers the ability to offer an ad at the end of a television show when consumers are asked if they want to save or delete a program, providing a whole new link to longer form material. We have developed various other forms of new inventory that provide advertisers with a way to engage with viewers as they navigate through the TiVo interface or fast forward through ads. ....."
> 
> ...


Yesterday I decided to look at the showcase area. I never go there, however with all the new ads being slathered onto my TiVo I thought I'd see what train wreck was in that section now. Wow! That's where all these ads are going. Granted most seemed to be trailers for new shows, but the ads were there as well. It was an interesting surprise.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

psyton said:


> Tsk, tsk, tsk. Young grasshopper, you're mistaken. Gather round while I tell you of a wonderful place that existed a long time ago. A place known as ad-free tivo. You see, in the beginning, there were no ads, none, nada; not even the hint of them. Then something horrible happened one day, I believe it was around version 2.5.something, where the first ad appeared in the form of a star (or something like that, too long ago I can't hardly remember anymore). The rest is history. You can ask around for the details... And yes, I've been a customer that long.


So have I, and I remember the very first star.

Doesn't change my statement. Ads have always been a part of the service - it was there in the language. They didn't show up until later, but it was always part of the deal. Actually, even before the star, they did some promos as PTCMs, but that really drove people nuts.

I remember the backlash against the stars and dire predictions at the time, back in 2002. TiVo was going to die! People would stop subscribing in droves!

Yep.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Atomike said:


> Remember when Tivo toyed with placing ads during the fast-forward process? The overlaying ads disaster - remember that? It wasn't that long ago. Anyway, what happened? Outcry. It started here, and ended up being everywhere. What happened after that? Tivo started peeing down its leg, and gave up on the idea.


Uh, no they didn't. FF ads are still in the TiVo, available to advertisers who want to use them. They never got a lot of use, and still don't.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

You know, TiVo is going to keep adding ads - we all know it. I don't consider that a slippery slope, because I don't consider that a bad thing. I think calling it a slippery slope is silly, and I also think those who think they'll be stuffing ads in *everywhere* like some NASCAR uniform are insane. But I think there are ways to add ads without being intrusive about it, and they'll do more of it until they find a balance. Too many ads turns people off and makes the ads less effective anyway.

But they're going to keep doing it, and the same people will continue to complain about it, but that's it. Very few of the people complaining will ever cancel their service and switch to something else, so there is no reason for TiVo not to do it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

megazone said:


> Actually, even before the star, they did some promos as PTCMs, but that really drove people nuts.


Well, duh! You said it yourself... 

What do you think would've happened if people didn't complain as much as they did about those ads?


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

megazone said:


> Very few of the people complaining will ever cancel their service and switch to something else, so there is no reason for TiVo not to do it.


Yup.TiVo is doing all the right things to increase their subscriber base by leaps and bounds - introducing KidZone (which was met with resounding yawns by most of the user base) at the expense of severely crippling the GUI, introducing a new pricing structure that three out of four of the users here (arguably their strongest fanbase) have said that they would not have signed up to, and now polluting the interface with more ads with the explicit promise of even more yet to come. Way to go TiVo. I'm sure that gobs of new users will forgo the less expensive but still adequate choices in order to give you their money.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> Well, duh! You said it yourself...
> 
> What do you think would've happened if people didn't complain as much as they did about those ads?


ummm - there was massive complaints about the yellow stars but that is still there. If complaints alone would induce TiVo to do something then the FSI would now today be a prominent feature


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Ok, complaints alone won't Zeo, but answer his question. What would have happened without them? Would they have kept or expanded PTCM's? Would they see the lack of push back as an ok from the user base?

The star is still there, but the question that you didn't answer is would it be more ads if there were no or fewer complaints?


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Ok, complaints alone won't Zeo, but answer his question. What would have happened without them? Would they have kept or expanded PTCM's? Would they see the lack of push back as an ok from the user base?
> 
> The star is still there, but the question that you didn't answer is would it be more ads if there were no or fewer complaints?


the original CEO of TiVo and many of the people working on it, had a vision of "TV your way" out of passion to make a superior product. I seriously doubt they would have cluttered up the device they slaved over.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the original CEO of TiVo and many of the people working on it, had a vision of "TV your way" out of passion to make a superior product. I seriously doubt they would have cluttered up the device they slaved over.


Hey. At last we agree on something. 
Merry Christmas Zeo.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Hey. At last we agree on something.
> Merry Christmas Zeo.


And a Happy New Year :up:


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> the original CEO of TiVo and many of the people working on it, had a vision of "TV your way" out of passion to make a superior product. I seriously doubt they would have cluttered up the device they slaved over.


Is that an answer?

What do *you* think would have happened if there were no PTCM complaints or yellow star complaints?

Do you not think the PTCM complaints re-directed their efforts to non-intrusive types of advertising?

Seriously, answer the questions directly. The romantic rememberance of the Tivo vision is nonrepsonsive.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

Y-ASK said:


> For some, like myself, it's the principal of the issue. I'm paying Tivo and I don't want to pay for the development and implementation of these BS ads no matter how unobtrusive they are.


I am virtually certain that the costs for these ads will be more than made up for by the revenue that they bring in (or at least Tivo believes this to be true).

I seriously doubt that Tivo would say "Hey! Let's take the time to do something that will exnd up costing us money in the long run, and piss off our users at the same time!!!"


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Too bad the subscription prices aren't going down as TiVo identifies other sources of revenue...


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## Atomike (Jun 12, 2005)

> I think calling it a slippery slope is silly


Good grief.
I wish folks would pay attention. The slippery slope is a term used in logic - and has a specific meaning which has already been discussed completely. If you don't think it's a slippery slope, I don't think you know what one is. 
Actually, for a laugh, why don't you define what you think a slippery slope is.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Billy66 said:


> Is that an answer?
> 
> What do *you* think would have happened if there were no PTCM complaints or yellow star complaints?
> 
> ...


 I think PTCMs would have still gone away without any complaints at all. PTCMs were just a quick fix and I am not sure any of them were serious ads anyway. Anyone know if they ever had an ad for say a TV or a car or whatever. I bet they were promotions closely related to TiVo.
Once they figured out yellow stars and the rotation of them etc.. they had a much better way to keep the ad constantly on the screen without interfering with how the DVR is used and they have kept to that model for including advertising since then. the only reason they would veer off that line is if they felt it was either do that or loose the company.

just like pop ups on the internet - ads that make you do something different just wont work since you just train your fingers on the remote to clear it without looking or on the internet you close them or get software to keep them away. it is not about complaints it is about intelligent user interface design married to how to advertise effectively.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Atomike said:


> Actually, for a laugh, why don't you define what you think a slippery slope is.


A hill, perhaps a bit wet, or icy, that would be difficult to walk on without falling?


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

We live in an ad society. Any item you order from Amazon.com has an ad stuffed in the box. I paid for the product, I paid for shipping (prime) so why is there an ad in the box? Ads keep prices/fees/etc. down. I did promo items for my college organization and we got some free items because it had some company logo on it. Thanks to a bank we have free sewing kit. It sucks, but it is life.


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## ashu (Nov 8, 2002)

MighTiVo said:


> A hill, perhaps a bit wet, or icy, that would be difficult to walk on without falling?


But would you roll? And, even more important, would you gather moss?


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> I think PTCMs would have still gone away without any complaints at all. PTCMs were just a quick fix and I am not sure any of them were serious ads anyway. Anyone know if they ever had an ad for say a TV or a car or whatever. I bet they were promotions closely related to TiVo.
> Once they figured out yellow stars and the rotation of them etc.. they had a much better way to keep the ad constantly on the screen without interfering with how the DVR is used and they have kept to that model for including advertising since then. the only reason they would veer off that line is if they felt it was either do that or loose the company.
> 
> just like pop ups on the internet - ads that make you do something different just wont work since you just train your fingers on the remote to clear it without looking or on the internet you close them or get software to keep them away. it is not about complaints it is about intelligent user interface design married to how to advertise effectively.


Thanks. You're entitled, it's not my opinion, but I appreciate you digging into it.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Einselen said:


> We live in an ad society. Any item you order from Amazon.com has an ad stuffed in the box. I paid for the product, I paid for shipping (prime) so why is there an ad in the box? Ads keep prices/fees/etc. down. I did promo items for my college organization and we got some free items because it had some company logo on it. Thanks to a bank we have free sewing kit. It sucks, but it is life.


But you can throw away the ad and never see it again when you look into the box.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ZeoTiVo said:


> just like pop ups on the internet - ads that make you do something different just wont work since you just train your fingers on the remote to clear it without looking [...]


Exactly. Everyone knows where their menu options are, and what to do to utilize them. For instance, to turn on Closed Captioning, I go to the "Settings" menu and then hit "Page Down" to get to the bottom option, "Video", and I can then enable CC.



> it is not about complaints it is about intelligent user interface design married to how to advertise effectively.


Yet TiVo has promised that they intend to extend ads throughout the interface, just like on the Delete Program page. No one knows exactly what this means, but I have suggested that this could result in an ad on every menu page if TiVo gets good click-responses on the current Delete Program ads.

If this occurs, and an ad is at the bottom of each menu, I will no longer be able to simply hit Page Down to get to Video, which means TiVo has altered their user interface. Ultimately, no one but TiVo Inc. knows what will happen, but this is the slippery slope many of us talk about when we ask, "Where will it end?"


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

MighTiVo said:


> A hill, perhaps a bit wet, or icy, that would be difficult to walk on without falling?


How about a wheelchair ramp coated in axle grease?

It is silly to insist on a strict rhetorical definition of "slippery slope" when this isn't a strict rhetorical venue.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

drew2k said:


> If this occurs, and an ad is at the bottom of each menu, I will no longer be able to simply hit Page Down to get to Video, which means TiVo has altered their user interface.


By that logic, TiVo should never add new features or improve the organization of the interface.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> By that logic, TiVo should never add new features or improve the organization of the interface.


I was just following up on Zeo's train of thought regarding ads:


ZeoTiVo said:


> ads that make you do something different just wont work since you just train your fingers on the remote to clear it without looking


His first paragraph was probably more important for me to quote (emphasis added by me):


ZeoTiVo said:


> Once they figured out yellow stars and the rotation of them etc.. they had a much better way to *keep the ad constantly on the screen without interfering with how the DVR is used * and they have kept to that model for including advertising since then. the only reason they would veer off that line is if they felt it was either do that or loose the company.


Using my example of getting to the Video menu, if an ad appears on the bottom of the Settings menu, it interferes with how I use the DVR.

(Of course, everyone will point to his last sentence as justification for TiVo to do this [put ads on menus].)


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

dswallow said:


> But you can throw away the ad and never see it again when you look into the box.


This is true, but that was not really the point of my post. I was just mentioning that there are ads everywhere you look now a days and that is what companies use to subsidized costs.

I ask (though I know it could change), how many ads have you seen on the delete. I watch a crap load of shows, about 3 or 4 per day, and I have seen only 1 so far.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

drew2k said:


> I was just following up on Zeo's train of thought regarding ads:
> His first paragraph was probably more important for me to quote (emphasis added by me):
> Using my example of getting to the Video menu, if an ad appears on the bottom of the Settings menu, it interferes with how I use the DVR.
> 
> (Of course, everyone will point to his last sentence as justification for TiVo to do this [put ads on menus].)


I would doubt they would put ads on the Messages and Settings page, mainly because that is not a high traffic area. Advertising of course is baout how many eyes see it and then how many act on it.

Now your point on a yellow star at the bottom of a Yellow Star at the bottom is valid on its own merit. But really if TiVo was looking to get ads everywhere they already have yellow star code and could have a long time ago spread them to other menus. but how many menus get a lot of daily use? That is what Tivo is looking for - up the eye count, try and induce more click through.
adding ds to other menus just does not do that when you have the TiVo button to get to now playing and can set up season passes maybe 3 times in the year and get 99% of the shows you wnat to record.

This goes back to effective marketing. You can not just spray ads everywhere and think that is more effective. It is not - the internet ad bust proved that.

and TiVo understands they have a great interface - they will not cross a line to mess up that great interface, even if no one complained


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## garydw (Oct 24, 2004)

Why does TIVO need to have ads? You pay a monthly fee for the Tivo service which is to be a DVR, and to provide a program guide.

Now Dish Network has DVR's and I pay no fee for the DVR service, and I pay no extra fee fro the program guide. There is no advertising on my Dish Network DVR. So the only time I have to deal with commercials is if I record a program on a channel that has commercials.

Same thing applies to my Directv dvr.

Same thing applies to my Comcast dvr.

And that is why I no longer use TIVO, and no longer subscribe to their overpriced service. And before any one tells me I am missing features that are only found on Tivo, I can't find one thing that my current DVR's cannot do, and I have never missed a program on my Dish, Direct, or Comcast DVR's.

Gary


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

Atomike said:


> Good grief.
> I wish folks would pay attention. The slippery slope is a term used in logic - and has a specific meaning which has already been discussed completely. If you don't think it's a slippery slope, I don't think you know what one is.
> Actually, for a laugh, why don't you define what you think a slippery slope is.


I'll chime in as a newcomer to this conversation. I think your position is ridiculous; there's no way I consider this a slippery slope. But different people have different ideas of meanings of words....

TiVo has announced from the earliest years that the long-term plans are for advertising to contribute 50% of TiVo's revenues. They've discussed their plans to grow advertising revenue at every quarterly report that I've ever heard. They are not in the least bit anti-advertising; instead they are pro-targeted-advertising - people should only see commercials/links that there's a good chance they are interested in.

This is not a case of TiVo changing their position a little bit at a time towards some unstated final goal (a slippery slope). This is TiVo following up on their very public, long-held position that they want to increase opportunities for targeted advertising. TiVo's position is not shifting.

Whether you like their position is a different issue. I personally don't have any objection as long as I don't have to pay attention to any advertising that I don't want to. And with the exception of the very short-lived PCTMs (sp?), so far I haven't had to. Eg, I've followed up on some gold stars that I'm interested in, and ignored most.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

garydw said:


> Now Dish Network has DVR's and I pay no fee for the DVR service, and I pay no extra fee fro the program guide. There is no advertising on my Dish Network DVR. So the only time I have to deal with commercials is if I record a program on a channel that has commercials.
> 
> Same thing applies to my Directv dvr.
> 
> Same thing applies to my Comcast dvr.


On what planet do you not have to pay a DVR fee to Comcast or DirecTV? And DirecTV has ads on its DirecTiVo DVRs, at least. And Comcast (and Charter), at least, have ads on their program guides. And all the cable and satellite MSOs sell advertising into the programming you are watching. And TiVo is building an interactive advertising platform (based on their own, one assumes) for both Comcast's and Cox's DVRs.

So what I am saying is: you are completely, utterly, and indisputably wrong.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> On what planet do you not have to pay a DVR fee to Comcast or DirecTV? And DirecTV has ads on its DirecTiVo DVRs, at least. And Comcast (and Charter), at least, have ads on their program guides. And all the cable and satellite MSOs sell advertising into the programming you are watching. And TiVo is building an interactive advertising platform (based on their own, one assumes) for both Comcast's and Cox's DVRs.
> 
> So what I am saying is: you are completely, utterly, and indisputably wrong.


but only because the cable co DVRs are happy to get the DVR functionality working, let alone throw in some code to show ads 
Also if only TiVo could provide broadcast content at 70$ a month, they could then drop that overpriced subscription fee.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> On what planet do you not have to pay a DVR fee to Comcast or DirecTV? And DirecTV has ads on its DirecTiVo DVRs, at least. And Comcast (and Charter), at least, have ads on their program guides. And all the cable and satellite MSOs sell advertising into the programming you are watching. And TiVo is building an interactive advertising platform (based on their own, one assumes) for both Comcast's and Cox's DVRs.
> 
> So what I am saying is: you are completely, utterly, and indisputably wrong.


1) I have lifetime DVR service with DirecTV, so I don't pay any DVR fee. I hear there's other people who have lifetime DVR service with DirecTV, too. 

2) I subscribe to Total Choice Premiere, so I don't pay any DVR fee (if I didn't already not pay because of lifetime above), though I suppose arguably it's part of the package price.

3) DirecTV has the yellow-star ads on the TiVo main menu; I don't believe they're anywhere else. I'm not sure about the NDS version.

4) Yes, DirecTV gets to place advertising on many channels as well as part of carriage deals, so you'll regularly see DirecTV PPV ads or other channel promos, but those are arguably not all that "commericially" like a local cable company inserting ads for a used car dealer or local car wash, etc.


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## lindylicious (Dec 12, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> On what planet do you not have to pay a DVR fee to Comcast or DirecTV?


I think it's called Earth.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

ZeoTiVo said:


> Also if only TiVo could provide broadcast content at 70$ a month, they could then drop that overpriced subscription fee.


No kidding. And, of course, none of that programming you're paying $70/month for has any ads in it. Why should there be ads in something you're paying a subscription fee for? That's ridiculous and outrageous. No one would put up with that.


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ChuckyBox said:


> No kidding. And, of course, none of that programming you're paying $70/month for has any ads in it. Why should there be ads in something you're paying a subscription fee for? That's ridiculous and outrageous. No one would put up with that.


Sure it does - but one of the reasons I bought TiVo was to skip them!


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dswallow said:


> 1) I have lifetime DVR service with DirecTV, so I don't pay any DVR fee. I hear there's other people who have lifetime DVR service with DirecTV, too.


Really? They gave you that lifetime service for free? There was no fee associated with it? That's great! Can I get it, too?



> 2) I subscribe to Total Choice Premiere, so I don't pay any DVR fee (if I didn't already not pay because of lifetime above), though I suppose arguably it's part of the package price.


Yeah, it's "arguable." But only in the way where you're actually paying for it.



> 3) DirecTV has the yellow-star ads on the TiVo main menu; I don't believe they're anywhere else. I'm not sure about the NDS version.


I believe they have "thumbs" ads, as well. They also have an ongoing development contract with TiVo (yes, still, and for the next three years), so you're likely to see anything that works on the SA TiVos show up on the DTiVos.



> 4) Yes, DirecTV gets to place advertising on many channels as well as part of carriage deals, so you'll regularly see DirecTV PPV ads or other channel promos, but those are arguably not all that "commericially" like a local cable company inserting ads for a used car dealer or local car wash, etc.


For a guy who's been waiving the "all TiVo ads are bad" flag in this thread, you sure surrender to DirecTV's ads pretty easily. Hmm, it's not the program you're paying to watch, but it's not one of those "commercially" things from someone other than DirecTV, it's just... a "promotion." That's it, a "promotion." In the middle of your program... for a product they want you to pay for. Whew. Good thing you didn't end up watching a commercial.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

RoyK said:


> Sure it does - but one of the reasons I bought TiVo was to skip them!


 yes, and you still get to skip them just the same way you could in 2002


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

ZeoTiVo said:


> yes, and you still get to skip them just the same way you could in 2002


Only to have wonderful things like "Man goes nuts in office", "Win a $25,000 Diamond Necklace", and "We are Marshall" stuck in my face everytime I visit TiVo Central, MasterCard tossed up when I finish watching a recording, Burger King, Chevrolet, Mastercard, and others clogging Showcases and what next?


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> Really? They gave you that lifetime service for free? There was no fee associated with it? That's great! Can I get it, too?


Lifetime is no longer available for DirecTV, just as it is no longer available for TiVo. Surely you knew that?



> Yeah, it's "arguable." But only in the way where you're actually paying for it.


What's arguable? DirecTV does not have to waive the DVR fee for Premiere subscribers - it's an enticement to get their customers to subscribe to a higher package. They could choose tomorrow to start charging the DVR fee to everyone, but until they do, there is no DVR fee for Premiere customers, and I don't even see an argument to be made otherwise.



> I believe they have "thumbs" ads, as well. They also have an ongoing development contract with TiVo (yes, still, and for the next three years), so you're likely to see anything that works on the SA TiVos show up on the DTiVos.


Yes, DirecTV TiVo units have thumb-ads. And you're right, we're just as likely to see SA TiVo features show up on DirecTV units as you are to see ads on every menu. (Fortunately, however, we are still lacking the gawd-awful bright-red TV-Guide logo on our Guide screens. Something to be thankful for!)



> For a guy who's been waiving the "all TiVo ads are bad" flag in this thread, you sure surrender to DirecTV's ads pretty easily. Hmm, it's not the program you're paying to watch, but it's not one of those "commercially" things from someone other than DirecTV, it's just... a "promotion." That's it, a "promotion." In the middle of your program... for a product they want you to pay for. Whew. Good thing you didn't end up watching a commercial.


I'm not sure what your point was here, but I'm still a little damp from the dripping sarcasm.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

drew2k said:


> I'm not sure what your point was here, but I'm still a little damp from the dripping sarcasm.


And yet you completely missed it in the first thing you quoted.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

ChuckyBox said:


> And yet you completely missed it in the first thing you quoted.


I already said in the sentence you quoted that I didn't know what your point was, but it's good of you to repeat that I still missed your point.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> For a guy who's been waiving the "all TiVo ads are bad" flag in this thread, you sure surrender to DirecTV's ads pretty easily. Hmm, it's not the program you're paying to watch, but it's not one of those "commercially" things from someone other than DirecTV, it's just... a "promotion." That's it, a "promotion." In the middle of your program... for a product they want you to pay for. Whew. Good thing you didn't end up watching a commercial.


I've been through very lengthy arguments over this very thing in the past with regard to Sirius and how they at times do a lot of promotion for other programs or other Sirius channels; I do consider those "commercials" but they don't.  And in a way, I can see the point or at least the differentiation; I'm already paying for it, so they're not really selling me anything, they're just trying to get me to utilize what I'm already paying for.

To me, the simple measure is just the annoyance factor. Just seeing it is annoying; it being obnoxious adds a little more annoyance; it being repeated often adds further annoyance. And so forth.

So really most any ad in the program stream isn't going to be all that annoying because I'm gonna 30-second skip past it pretty quick; usually that means the only ads that even have a chance to rate on the annoyance scale are those at the beginning and at the end. Nonetheless, an ad for some specific programming on some channel coming up isn't that bad, they tend to be relatively calm, they aren't all that repetitive, and they usually aren't screaming in your face at high volume levels, either.

And I've never gotten all that upset over yellow-star ads because I almost never go to the menu where they appear; I go direct to Now Playing with the List button, and I do most all my season pass and recording configuration via TiVoWeb Plus on my computer.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

dswallow said:


> And I've never gotten all that upset over yellow-star ads because I almost never go to the menu where they appear; I go direct to Now Playing with the List button, and I do most all my season pass and recording configuration via TiVoWeb Plus on my computer.


 ah, so basically you are upset becasue they found a place to put the line of ad text you can not avoid


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ZeoTiVo said:


> ah, so basically you are upset becasue they found a place to put the line of ad text you can not avoid


Ignorance is bliss. 

Though technically, I would rarely see those even if they did appear on my HR10-250's. Almost every recording is padded automatically so I'm exiting the playback of it before it's close enough to the end to give me that page delete or save page prompt.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

drew2k said:


> I already said in the sentence you quoted that I didn't know what your point was, but it's good of you to repeat that I still missed your point.


Not the point, the sarcasm.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

RoyK said:


> Yup.TiVo is doing all the right things to increase their subscriber base by leaps and bounds - introducing KidZone (which was met with resounding yawns by most of the user base) at the expense of severely crippling the GUI, introducing a new pricing structure that three out of four of the users here (arguably their strongest fanbase) have said that they would not have signed up to, and now polluting the interface with more ads with the explicit promise of even more yet to come. Way to go TiVo. I'm sure that gobs of new users will forgo the less expensive but still adequate choices in order to give you their money.


You apparently live in your own reality, since these are highly skewed views of what actually happened.

Standalone sales were up last quarter, the first year over year increase in several quarters. KidZone has lead *directly* to a large number of cooperative marketing efforts which contributed to that. And it was a key feature in closing the RadioShack retail deal, which gave TiVo 3,000 new points of sale. KidZone was, and is, very important to the company. Just because not everyone uses it doesn't mean it isn't worth it to TiVo.

TiVo has also reported, on the last con call, that initial response to the new pricing was positive, with a uptick and sales. So some people don't like it, that's life. No pricing scheme will make everyone happy, the goal is increased sales and so far it is working. Hardcore fanatics are not good as a litmus test, because they tend to be extreme in their views, including intolerance of things they don't like.

And ads - Comcast's DVR has ads that are a lot more in your face. I've seen more comments around the net from people saying they don't have a problem with the new ads than the handful of people complaining, and even most of those complaining admit they're not going to do anything to change their use. So it is hollow.

You just like to complain.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

megazone said:


> You apparently live in your own reality, since these are highly skewed views of what actually happened.
> 
> Standalone sales were up last quarter, the first year over year increase in several quarters. KidZone has lead *directly* to a large number of cooperative marketing efforts which contributed to that.....
> TiVo has also reported, on the last con call, that initial response to the new pricing was positive, with a uptick and sales.


You can use exactly same logic to explain decrease in net sub additions. Something like "initial response to the new pricing" was increase in cancellations of service.
Anybody can spin numbers to justify whatever new direction is. Only time can tell if latest pricing structure is a success. Same goes for ads.
It really doesn't matter how members of this forum react to new ads on delete screen. The real test is how advertisers will react to the number of views TiVo can produce and even more important - how much they will be willing to pay. All the TiVo advertising efforts to date did not produce material income, at least not enough to show it as a line in financial statements.
I have no idea how much TiVo wants or actually charges for these ads (if I was to invest in TiVo that would be a first thing on my list to check) but I can't imagine that TiVo can command substantial price. I was checking the price from my local affiliate last year for my own business and was really surprised that even network ads are reasonably priced. IIRC, the price was about $5/1000 views/30 sec. How many views per month do you think TiVo "non-intrusive" ads can generate? Even if TiVo charges 20 times more than TV stations (say 10 cents per view) the total bottom line will be negligible compare with subscription revenue.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

samo said:


> You can use exactly same logic to explain decrease in net sub additions. Something like "initial response to the new pricing" was increase in cancellations of service.


Since the net loss was due to DirecTiVo churn, how does that hold together? SA subs, the only subs the pricing applies to, had a net gain.



> It really doesn't matter how members of this forum react to new ads on delete screen. The real test is how advertisers will react to the number of views TiVo can produce and even more important - how much they will be willing to pay. All the TiVo advertising efforts to date did not produce material income, at least not enough to show it as a line in financial statements.


Agreed. But everything has to start somewhere, and TiVo has steadily signed up more advertisers over time, so they've been gaining traction slowly and steadily. Success breeds success, even if it is a minor success to start.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

megazone said:


> Since the net loss was due to DirecTiVo churn, how does that hold together? SA subs, the only subs the pricing applies to, had a net gain.


Wrong. Net additions for SA were 2K less than a year ago (53K vs 55K). But that doesn't matter. My point was that spin doctors can spin anything to sound positive or negative depending on desired effect.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

samo said:


> I have no idea how much TiVo wants or actually charges for these ads (if I was to invest in TiVo that would be a first thing on my list to check) but I can't imagine that TiVo can command substantial price.


I doubt you could get a representative answer since much of what they do is testing with new programs or new customers, so I imagine there are a lot of deals cut just to get companies to try the service.

As near as I can figure, TiVo got about $8.8 million in advertising revenue in the last four quarters (on the standalone boxes -- the DTV boxes are near impossible to figure). But that number could easily be off by 10% or 15%. It's not spectacular yet, but for a company of TiVo's size, it isn't anything to scoff at, either.

When TiVo puts its ad management system on the bulk of Comcast and Cox DVRs in the next twelve months or so, all the groundwork they've done these past few years could pay off. Even at the current per sub revenue level, adding three or four times the audience makes for a decent revenue stream.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

samo said:


> Wrong. Net additions for SA were 2K less than a year ago (53K vs 55K). But that doesn't matter. My point was that spin doctors can spin anything to sound positive or negative depending on desired effect.


Spin doctors can't convince anybody who knows better. Like we all know that when you apply the exact same rate of churn to a bigger base of subscribers, you get a bigger total number of cancellations. Right?


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> When TiVo puts its ad management system on the bulk of Comcast and Cox DVRs in the next twelve months or so, all the groundwork they've done these past few years could pay off. Even at the current per sub revenue level, adding three or four times the audience makes for a decent revenue stream.


I'd expect such revenue would probably be shared with Comcast/Cox, though. Even so it'd be a far more significant thing if they'd come to an agreement to place the TiVo firmware on all boxes rather than it just being a customer option (and a higher cost at that); that'd be a formidable potential market for advertisers, then.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

> As near as I can figure, TiVo got about $8.8 million in advertising revenue in the last four quarters


Really? I would never guess that they got that much (I haven't done any research on a subject and I'm not questioning your numbers - just surprised that numbers are over a million and not reported as separate line). May I ask you how you derived these figures?


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

samo said:


> May I ask you how you derived these figures?


Just a friendly PSA:

Remember kids, do not drink and derive.

Ok continue on with discussion.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

ChuckyBox said:


> Spin doctors can't convince anybody who knows better. Like we all know that when you apply the exact same rate of churn to a bigger base of subscribers, you get a bigger total number of cancellations. Right?


Right. Except in this particular case total subs went up 12% and cancellations went up 29%. Total number of cancellations went up not because of scale on churn, but because of greater number of lifetimes taken of the active list. But if you don't mention details and ignore numbers in a body of the report, you can easily make a case for pricing structure being cause of extra cancellations. Just like you can make a case for KidZone causing extra sales if you forget a fact that TiVo is advertised now as a free box.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

samo said:


> Wrong. Net additions for SA were 2K less than a year ago (53K vs 55K).


Ah, OK, we were just talking about different things - net adds year over year and net total subs year over year.

But the pricing change came after the end of the quarter that was reported, so it doesn't impact those figures at all. It was just a verbal comment on the call about what they'd see in the time from the change to the call.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

megazone said:


> But the pricing change came after the end of the quarter that was reported, so it doesn't impact those figures at all. It was just a verbal comment on the call about what they'd see in the time from the change to the call.


It doesn't surprise me. People are suckers for a free staff. If "no payments for 2 years" works for furniture stores, then there is no reason why "free TiVo" wouldn't work.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

dswallow said:


> I'd expect such revenue would probably be shared with Comcast/Cox, though. Even so it'd be a far more significant thing if they'd come to an agreement to place the TiVo firmware on all boxes rather than it just being a customer option (and a higher cost at that); that'd be a formidable potential market for advertisers, then.


The ad management software will go on the bulk of the Comcast and Cox DVRs, whether or not the customer opts for the "TiVo Experience" DVR software. The two things are very separate and distinct projects:

From the latest 10-Q:
"Pursuant to this agreement, the Company agreed to develop a TiVo-branded software solution for deployment on Comcasts DVR platforms, which would enable any TiVo-specific DVR and networking features requested by Comcast, such as WishList ® searches, Season Pass  recordings, home media features, and TiVoToGo  transfers. In addition, the Company agreed to develop a TiVo Interactive Advertising Management System for deployment on Comcast platforms to enable the provision of local and national advertising to Comcast subscribers."

The Cox wording is similar. The exact nature of who gets to sell what, and how the revenue is shared, is unclear. (Though Tom Rogers did say somewhere, IIRC, that TiVo would sell national ads, and Comcast would sell local/regional ads.)

Re Comcast:
"TiVo will have the continuing right to sell certain types of advertising in connection with the TiVo service offered through Comcast. TiVo will also have a limited right to sell certain types of advertising on other Comcast DVR set-top boxes enabled with the TiVo Interactive Advertising Management System, subject to Comcasts option to terminate such right in exchange for certain advertising-related payments [i.e., a percentage of the revenue -- CB]"

Re Cox:
"The Company will have the continuing right to sell certain types of advertising in connection with the TiVo service offered through Cox. The Company will also have a right to sell certain types of advertising on other Cox DVR set-top boxes enabled with the advertising management system."


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## RoyK (Oct 22, 2004)

megazone said:


> You apparently live in your own reality, since these are highly skewed views of what actually happened.
> 
> ....
> 
> You just like to complain.


1. I believe I stated precisely what happened.

2. I have every right and reason to complain - I not only own my TiVos I also own TIVO.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

samo said:


> I was checking the price from my local affiliate last year for my own business and was really surprised that even network ads are reasonably priced. IIRC, the price was about $5/1000 views/30 sec. How many views per month do you think TiVo "non-intrusive" ads can generate? Even if TiVo charges 20 times more than TV stations (say 10 cents per view) the total bottom line will be negligible compare with subscription revenue.


Number of viewers is important but having a targeted demographic and being able to quickly judge the reaction to the ad message in the form of click throughs and responses is gold. Also bear in mind that the demographic info can rest around the aggregate of what kinds of shows are recorded which is demographic data the advertisers already use. This is a key differentiator from the early days of click through ads on the internet which was a much broader and loosely based demographic.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

samo said:


> May I ask you how you derived these figures?


With great difficulty and a few assumptions. Essentially, starting with the ARPU number TiVo gives, you can back out the non-paying lifetimes, then the paying lifetimes, then look at the variation in this residual ARPU as a function of what you think the average monthly sub revenue is (which includes monthly subs on different payment plans). If you knew this last thing exactly, of course, you'd have your number. But you don't. So you have to assume a certain stability of the mix in the existing subs base, and then iterate until you find something stable w.r.t. sub additions. It isn't pretty, but I've approached it from a few angles, and there are some other constraints, and $8.8 million +/- 15% is likely to catch the real number, and +/-30% is almost certain to.

A very quick-and-dirty approximation would be to look at raw ARPU for the last few quarters: $8.65, $8.88, $8.54, $8.82 (for Q3, Q2, Q1, Q4 FY06). Both of the low numbers were blamed on delays in ad revenue (and, to some extent this last quarter, on increasing end-of-amortization lifetime subs). But the big difference there, $.34, applied to 1.5 million subs gives you about $500k/month. If you attribute all of it to advertising revenue, and assume that Q1 wasn't zero, you get at least a few million for the TTM period.

As to why TiVo doesn't report this number, I have three theories: 1) the number isn't big and varies significantly quarter-to-quarter, so they don't want to give analysts anything more to freak out over every time there is a bump; 2) the number isn't terrible and is growing, and they don't want competitors to get a line on it; 3) if we know the ad revenue, we also know that the monthly sub fees have been falling (on a per-sub basis, largely because of the MSD) and they don't want analysts to freak out over that. Since the price increase should quickly halt the slide in per-sub average payment, and the ad number is getting too big to ignore, I'd expect to see it reported within the next few quarters.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Unfortunately, analysts usually freak out just because.


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