# Official: Tivo says "DVR rollouts with... DirecTV are on track"



## Phillip Chapman

Even though this isn't the main point of the article, it's at least something concerning the status of the new DirecTV HD Tivo. Hopefully more will be announced soon.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=23337


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## stevel

Yes, but which track? The original one that said Fall 2009 or the rescheduled one for "2010"?


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## Phillip Chapman

stevel said:


> Yes, but which track? The original one that said Fall 2009 or the rescheduled one for "2010"?


It seems like it would have to be the 2010 track at this point considering we know none of the specs as of yet.

Some have speculated whether or not the new DirecTV HD Tivo is going to happen at all, so it's nice to get official confirmation that it is still being developed.


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## Cudahy

The first word in, what, 6 months?


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## sjberra

Phillip Chapman said:


> It seems like it would have to be the 2010 track at this point considering we know none of the specs as of yet.
> 
> Some have speculated whether or not the new DirecTV HD Tivo is going to happen at all, so it's nice to get official confirmation that it is still being developed.


Sorry, still not official, will believe it when it hits the retail market in bulk availablity, untill then it is still blue sky. Lot can happen between now and sometime in 2010. Especially since the kitten is taking on the two lions in the patent infringement issues

Tivo a business division of (att or verizon)


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## bkdtv

stevel said:


> Yes, but which track? The original one that said Fall 2009 or the rescheduled one for "2010"?


On CNBC this morning, Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) said the new DirecTiVo was "on track for early 2010." [Source]


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## codespy

bkdtv said:


> On CNBC this morning, Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) said the new DirecTiVo was "on track for early 2010." [Source]


You didn't happen to TiVo that so WE can see it did you?


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## shibby191

Nothing new. Early 2010 has been what Tivo has been saying for over 6 months now.


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## bkdtv

codespy said:


> You didn't happen to TiVo that so WE can see it did you?


I included the link to the online video, above.



shibby191 said:


> Nothing new. Early 2010 has been what Tivo has been saying for over 6 months now.


Right. The only "news" is that they are still on schedule for early 2010.


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## TyroneShoes

sjberra said:


> Sorry, still not official, will believe it when it hits the retail market in bulk availablity, untill then it is still blue sky. Lot can happen between now and sometime in 2010. Especially since the kitten is taking on the two lions in the patent infringement issues
> 
> Tivo a business division of (att or verizon)


Kitty kicked the *** of the last lion.



codespy said:


> You didn't happen to TiVo that so WE can see it did you?


Ironically, he recorded it on his HD DVR+.


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## Rainy Dave

ZDNet needs to hire a better proofreader.



> The lawsuits against AT&T and Verizon come as TiVo reported a fiscal second quarter net loss of *$2.9 billion*, or 3 cents a share, compared to a profit of 3 cents a share a year ago. The company reported revenue of $57.3 million, down from $65.2 million a year ago. Wall Street was expecting a loss of 5 cents a share.


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## sjberra

TyroneShoes said:


> Kitty kicked the *** of the last lion.
> 
> Ironically, he recorded it on his HD DVR+.


If you mean dish network, I really want to thank you for a good laugh, sorry Dish is no where near the corporate entity that ATT and Verizon is, they could purchase Dish out of petty cash for their division and not notice it


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> If you mean dish network, I really want to thank you for a good laugh, sorry Dish is no where near the corporate entity that ATT and Verizon is, they could purchase Dish out of petty cash for their division and not notice it


If you compared the business segments.... DISH vs. U-Verse, or FiOS, that would be one thing.

But if you are considering T and VZ in their corporate entireties, all businesses and markets, then yes, they are much larger.

The question becomes is U-Verse or FiOS, as a business, prepared to shoulder the litigation expenses in lieu of the rest of corporate funding. Now obviously it would be looked at as a corporate expense, so the full support comes with that. But don't think for a minute that management will look at this corporate expense as being incurred entirely by a single division. And they will develop risk models based upon that.

I'm not predicting at all what will come of this. But the corporate comparison between DISH and these "telcos" is interesting. Whereas DISH was fighting to defend their entire business, T and VZ would not be. The defense against a preliminary injunction had considerably more weight for DISH than it does for either AT&T or Verizon.

The bigger they are... the harder it is to argue harm.


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## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> If you compared the business segments.... DISH vs. U-Verse, or FiOS, that would be one thing.
> 
> But if you are considering T and VZ in their corporate entireties, all businesses and markets, then yes, they are much larger.
> 
> The question becomes is U-Verse or FiOS, as a business, prepared to shoulder the litigation expenses in lieu of the rest of corporate funding. Now obviously it would be looked at as a corporate expense, so the full support comes with that. But don't think for a minute that management will look at this corporate expense as being incurred entirely by a single division. And they will develop risk models based upon that.
> 
> I'm not predicting at all what will come of this. But the corporate comparison between DISH and these "telcos" is interesting. Whereas DISH was fighting to defend their entire business, T and VZ would not be. The defense against a preliminary injunction had considerably more weight for DISH than it does for either AT&T or Verizon.
> 
> The bigger they are... the harder it is to argue harm.


Considering it as a corporation, most large scale coprorations with multiple divisions have one legal division that handles all of their litigation - so suspect that tivo is going up again the resourses of ATT and verizion as a corporation not as uverse or fios.


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## sjberra

nirvanayoda said:


> I agree. Besides, they're going to hire outside counsel who specialize in patent litigation (like Fish & Richardson, Howrey, Sidley Austin, etc) anyway, so the size of in-house divisions won't matter.


Always good to bring in experts to assist the internal legal team. ATT and Verizion's pockets are a lot deeper then Tivo's


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## fasTLane

sjberra said:


> Always good to bring in experts to assist the internal legal team. ATT and Verizion's pockets are a lot deeper then Tivo's


It's *all *about *$money$*. Forget ethics.


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> Always good to bring in experts to assist the internal legal team. ATT and Verizion's pockets are a lot deeper then Tivo's


Yeah, but are their pockets deeper than DISH's? With nearly $200 million being awarded to TiVo so far, and perhaps as much as $1 billion in sanctions on deck, TiVo could effectively litigate against ATT and V by just using DISH's money.

BTW, one of those experts, the Fish firm, also provided DISH with an opinion that their workaround no longer infringed. But under cross, Fish admitted that no one had reviewed the source code of the workaround. In subsequent filings, it is apparent that their "expert assistance" was not helpful at all. The district court ruled that the workaround still infringes.


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## shibby191

20TIL6 said:


> Yeah, but are their pockets deeper than DISH's? With nearly $200 million being awarded to TiVo so far, and perhaps as much as $1 billion in sanctions on deck, TiVo could effectively litigate against ATT and V by just using DISH's money.


LOL. You do realize that AT&T and Verizon are so much larger then Dish, right?  They'll make $200 million before lunch today.


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## 20TIL6

shibby191 said:


> LOL. You do realize that AT&T and Verizon are so much larger then Dish, right?  They'll make $200 million before lunch today.


Yep, I am aware of the size difference. When arguing against an injunction, it helps to show considerable harm to your entire business. Shutting down DVRs won't materially impact cell phone and other data/telecom services. I don't necessarily think being huge is an advantage in this case for that very reason.

Have we heard from ATT or VZ yet? I think I read that ATT had no comment and VZ said they had not read the infringement filing yet. They have been pretty quiet about it.

You meant that $200 million as revenue before lunch... not bottom line profit, right?

With these latest filings..... and interestingly whom TiVo did not file against, perhaps some sides are forming.


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## cbessant

What really chaffes me is this isn't new for TiVo/DirecTv, just the MPEG-4, and TiVo has the rest of the magic software objects ready to go. Every few months, DirecTv dumps a HD MPEG-3 channel n th e70-79 range, like SHOWTIME-HD a few months back. I get to enjoy HD on like 7 channels, two of which are ESPN. 

I only have a satellite option where we live. If I had a cable option, I'd take it. Cable and satellite only provide content, TiVo has the great UI - the special herbs and seasoning that other DVR makers miss by a long shot. 

This looks more like a "business" (money and who gets how much) than a technical development thing. If it is technical, I can't imagine what that could be.


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## shibby191

cbessant said:


> This looks more like a "business" (money and who gets how much) than a technical development thing. If it is technical, I can't imagine what that could be.


Could be. You'll have to ask Tivo since they are the ones building the thing. You'd think they would want it out sooner then later since every day they delay it more people cancel their Tivo subs and may never go back.


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## CuriousMark

shibby191 said:


> Could be. You'll have to ask Tivo since they are the ones building the thing. You'd think they would want it out sooner then later since every day they delay it more people cancel their Tivo subs and may never go back.


Last I heard it was a DTV box, not a TiVo Designed and built box. Where did you get that info?


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## Matt L

cbessant said:


> What really chaffes me is this isn't new for TiVo/DirecTv, just the MPEG-4, and TiVo has the rest of the magic software objects ready to go. Every few months, DirecTv dumps a HD MPEG-3 channel n th e70-79 range, like SHOWTIME-HD a few months back. I get to enjoy HD on like 7 channels, two of which are ESPN.
> 
> I only have a satellite option where we live. If I had a cable option, I'd take it. Cable and satellite only provide content, TiVo has the great UI - the special herbs and seasoning that other DVR makers miss by a long shot.
> 
> This looks more like a "business" (money and who gets how much) than a technical development thing. If it is technical, I can't imagine what that could be.


So, why are you punishing yourself? I don't get it anymore. I felt like that but the call of all those GREAT HD channels pulled me to the dark side and to be honest i have not looked back. I'd look at a new D TiVo but it would have to sing and dance for me to really consider it at this point. While the interface is different, and it lacks suggestions, the Hr2X series with the CE has more functionality than the HR10-250s.

You know, there is nothing keeping you from having both, I do. but the TiVo is getting much, much less use as the days go on.


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## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> Yep, I am aware of the size difference. When arguing against an injunction, it helps to show considerable harm to your entire business. Shutting down DVRs won't materially impact cell phone and other data/telecom services. I don't necessarily think being huge is an advantage in this case for that very reason.
> 
> Have we heard from ATT or VZ yet? I think I read that ATT had no comment and VZ said they had not read the infringement filing yet. They have been pretty quiet about it.
> 
> You meant that $200 million as revenue before lunch... not bottom line profit, right?
> 
> With these latest filings..... and interestingly whom TiVo did not file against, perhaps some sides are forming.


Disagree here, their Uverse infrastructure is growing by leaps and bounds, so it would affect a large portion of their infrastructure.

Probably haven't herd anything problem becasue ATT and Verizon's legal divisions have not stopped laughing yet and their hostile take over team is starting to plot


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## shibby191

CuriousMark said:


> Last I heard it was a DTV box, not a TiVo Designed and built box. Where did you get that info?


Sure it's a DirecTV box. But Tivo is designing and programming the software to go on it, especially if it's just going to go on top of the current HR2x receivers, the hardware has been out there over 3 years now.

So unless DirecTV delayed getting a new hardware spec to Tivo (assuming new hardware), the delay and responsibility for this whole thing is all on Tivo. Tivo designs, programs and delivers it to DirecTV. DirecTV sells it. It's Tivo's baby.


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> Disagree here, their Uverse infrastructure is growing by leaps and bounds, so it would affect a large portion of their infrastructure.


Now that is funny. The inability to record content in the consumer's home would affect their infrastructure. That's an amazingly weak infrastructure.


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## 20TIL6

shibby191 said:


> Sure it's a DirecTV box. But Tivo is designing and programming the software to go on it, especially if it's just going to go on top of the current HR2x receivers, the hardware has been out there over 3 years now.
> 
> So unless DirecTV delayed getting a new hardware spec to Tivo (assuming new hardware), the delay and responsibility for this whole thing is all on Tivo. Tivo designs, programs and delivers it to DirecTV. DirecTV sells it. It's Tivo's baby.


It's always been a business decision before a technical one. One side is dragging its feet. I can't imagine the benefit to TiVo if they were the ones. But I can think of reasons why DirecTV would like this to never launch.


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## bkdtv

Don't expect to see the new TiVo software on existing boxes. Expect to see it on DirecTV's next-generation DVR platform (i.e. HR30).

The existing hardware is very limited it what it can do with the UI. For example, the HR2x can't support a HD UI with a high level of responsiveness. DirecTV's next-generation DVR platform will do that. It would be ridiculously stupid to write new software that is limited by older hardware when DirecTV is working on a HD UI of its own for the newer hardware.


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## cbessant

shibby191 said:


> Could be. You'll have to ask Tivo since they are the ones building the thing. You'd think they would want it out sooner then later since every day they delay it more people cancel their Tivo subs and may never go back.


This is what has me questioning. I don't know what the attrition (churn) rate is for TiVo users on DirectTv that are moving to cable as they are tired of waiting. I only see this as an enhancement to DTV's offering, unless it eats into their profit margins by not leasing enough of their own in-house DVRs. I'd think TiVo would be a HUGE competitive advanage over DISH, and they'd be pursuing a new TiVo release more agressively.

I'd use both, as someone suggested, however my wife is not hot about the DTV DVR so to keep marital bliss, we stick with the HD TiVo. I would leave DTV and move to cable if I had a cable option, but I don't.

I'm a consumer ready to consume. Thanks for the info. Not knowing and seeing delays makes this frustrating.


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## fasTLane

Hang in there; the joy will soon return.


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## CuriousMark

shibby191 said:


> Sure it's a DirecTV box. But Tivo is designing and programming the software to go on it, especially if it's just going to go on top of the current HR2x receivers, the hardware has been out there over 3 years now.


I guess I just misunderstood your post then.

I am thinking it might be new hardware, but it certainly could be all on TiVo's side. There was some speculation that negotiations over content and features were drug out a while, but that shouldn't have accounted for all the delays we are seeing.


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## shibby191

CuriousMark said:


> I guess I just misunderstood your post then.
> 
> I am thinking it might be new hardware, but it certainly could be all on TiVo's side. There was some speculation that negotiations over content and features were drug out a while, but that shouldn't have accounted for all the delays we are seeing.


Obviously we're all speaking with no knowledge of the real situation. My postings are just things I have read on places like Satguys, DBSTalk or other sites. The general consensus is that DirecTV fully expected this to be delivered by now but it's not and when Tivo announced last February that it was delayed until 2010 DirecTV was surprised at that.

To me that says that DirecTV did their part, whatever that is, including providing a new hardware platform if that's what it will run on. Note it was *Tivo* that announced the delay, not DirecTV. DirecTV has not said one word about the whole thing since the original press release over a year ago. Tivo talked it up lake crazy up until CES at which point they refused to comment then the delay to 2010 was announced.

So again, to me this says that Tivo has incurred delays. May not have anything to do with DirecTV either, could be they had some key developers leave and they had to pull resources off the DirecTV project to finish up something for Cox or Comast first. We don't know.

But to me Tivo is the reason for the delay.

Obviously this is just me putting together puzzle pieces in my mind and I could certainly be wrong.

The two things I think we can all agree on:
1) Tivo has everything to lose due to delays or non-delivery of the product. They NEED this to work.
2) DirecTV has nothing to lose due to a delay and is really in a no lose situation with the whole thing. If it never ships DirecTV is doing just fine without Tivo. If it does ship the DirecTV simply makes more money. Win-win for them.


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## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> Now that is funny. The inability to record content in the consumer's home would affect their infrastructure. That's an amazingly weak infrastructure.


/rofl good joke, thanks I needed that

Tivo a divison of ATT or Verizon.


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## samo

To me delays are business decision on TiVo part. They know that they can not compete with an existing HR2X if they use existing TiVo HD software and that they have to implement all of the missing features or face lackluster sales.
Personally, I would not even consider new DirecTiVo if it does not have either of the following:
1. PIP window in a guide and now playing list.
2. CID similar to HR2X
3. FSI of some kind
4. 1080P output
5. Multiple custom guide settings (favorite channels)
6. Interactive features and mix channels
Even if new TiVo has all these features, I will not get one if they will have pause ads like they do on S3
Of course I will not pay much extra monthly just to have Tivo and will not pay much more for the hardware.
Even if new DirecTivo has everything I want and priced well, I will not jump in for at least 6 months to have somebody else debug all the problems that new DVR will have (every DVR I ever had took at least that long to get stable)
I bet TiVO knows that majority of DirecTV customers are in a same shoes I am, hardcore TiVo lovers are negligible minority.


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## cbessant

samo said:


> I am, hardcore TiVo lovers are negligible minority.


It would be interesting to see marketing data showing the percentage of TiVo users on DTV. Also, if TiVo units are a negligible minority for DTV, why offer a new HD TiVo? Demand must be there otherwise why bother?


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## TyroneShoes

Matt L said:


> So, why are you punishing yourself? I don't get it anymore. I felt like that but the call of all those GREAT HD channels pulled me to the dark side and to be honest i have not looked back. I'd look at a new D TiVo but it would have to sing and dance for me to really consider it at this point. While the interface is different, and it lacks suggestions, the Hr2X series with the CE has more functionality than the HR10-250s.
> 
> You know, there is nothing keeping you from having both, I do. but the TiVo is getting much, much less use as the days go on.


I could not have said it better.

Last TV season my HR10's were primaries and the HR20's were backups. I hadn't quite weaned myself from the peanut interface, and slo-mo on the HR2x was a disgrace. This TV season the HR10's will be the backups and the HR20's will be primary. Slo-mo, while not elegant, has improved drastically, and I have become as accustomed to the HR2x interface as I was to Tivo. Now that DLB is here, there really isn't much reason to lament the passing of the HR10.

And, while the HR2x started out as a dog, it quickly became first a contender, and then the leader. MPEG-4 aside, it is a very clever interface with a lot of functionality that Tivo never even dreamed of, such as simple things like overlapping recordings on the same channel, quick menu features, DOD, etc. The list goes on and on. Simultaneously, my HR10's have become much less reliable to the point where I must reboot them preventatively to hope for them not to reboot spontaneously, punching a 7-minute hole in my recording. Problems that were unthinkable on the HR10 became the order of the day with the drastic 6.3 software, much of which has not been fixed.

If the new HD DTivo is supposed to be a premium product, they will have to really have something, and they will be playing catchup to the HR2x. By the time they want to launch, the HR2x may be so far in front that the whole idea of Tivo as a premium step-up DVR becomes obvious and patently ridiculous, and they may simply not do it, or launch in a half-assed way that is more of a whimper than a bang.


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## shibby191

cbessant said:


> It would be interesting to see marketing data showing the percentage of TiVo users on DTV. Also, if TiVo units are a negligible minority for DTV, why offer a new HD TiVo? Demand must be there otherwise why bother?


Well, it's pretty obvious.

There are 40+ million DVR users. Of that less then 4 million are Tivos and shrinking every quarter.

Thus Tivo already has 10% or less of the DVR market as it is (they used to dominate). 
Most DVR users have never used or even seen a real Tivo device and most think they are using Tivo even though they have never have.

For DirecTV there are less then 1.5 million DirecTivo's left in service, out of nearly 19 million subs. And dropping fast every quarter. DirecTV says that over 60% of all new subs get their DVR and have hinted that nearly 50% of their entire user based now has an HD/DVR.

Numbers really speak for themselves, especially the overall market. Tivo is a minority player in the DVR market and has been for a few years. Tivo users and lovers are vocal, but are a minority and getting to the point where they are just a bit player. Tivo's best income model right now is suing everyone (and they probably deserve it).


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> /rofl good joke, thanks I needed that
> 
> Tivo a divison of ATT or Verizon.


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## innocentfreak

shibby191 said:


> There are 40+ million DVR users.
> 
> For DirecTV there are less then 1.5 million DirecTivo's left in service, out of nearly 19 million subs. And dropping fast every quarter. DirecTV says that over 60% of all new subs get their DVR and have hinted that nearly 50% of their entire user based now has an HD/DVR.
> 
> Numbers really speak for themselves, especially the overall market. Tivo is a minority player in the DVR market and has been for a few years. Tivo users and lovers are vocal, but are a minority and getting to the point where they are just a bit player. Tivo's best income model right now is suing everyone (and they probably deserve it).


The problem in the case of the DVR is the numbers really don't mean all that much. They may speak a little to how few Tivo subscriptions there are but that is about all. The majority of people who have DVRs at least in my experience don't even really use them. They have them because they were told they were great and they were almost the same as paying for a non DVR. I can't even remember the last time I saw a non-DVR DTV receiver in any of the stores.

It is amazing when you talk to people and how many just accept the DVRs will miss shows. They do it because they aren't using DVRs the way most of us use DVRs. For example I can't remember the last time I watched live tv. Meanwhile the people I work with talk about how they have to be home by a certain time to watch their favorite show and they have a DVR. When you ask they either say they always forget to set a recording or they are afraid it won't record the show.

The other issue is with DTV you no longer had Tivo for a choice for HD programming. What else were those users who refuse to leave Directv but now only watch HD programming supposed to do? Of course when you can't choose Tivo and there is only the one option, guess which one grows over time.

I think with DVRs you will never have a true idea what the real numbers are as a result of all this especially as the boxes are pushed more over standard receivers.


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## Enrique

innocentfreak said:


> The problem in the case of the DVR is the numbers really don't mean all that much. They may speak a little to how few Tivo subscriptions there are but that is about all. The majority of people who have DVRs at least in my experience don't even really use them. They have them because they were told they were great and they were almost the same as paying for a non DVR. I can't even remember the last time I saw a non-DVR DTV receiver in any of the stores.
> 
> It is amazing when you talk to people and how many just accept the DVRs will miss shows. They do it because they aren't using DVRs the way most of us use DVRs. For example I can't remember the last time I watched live tv. Meanwhile the people I work with talk about how they have to be home by a certain time to watch their favorite show and they have a DVR. When you ask they either say they always forget to set a recording or they are afraid it won't record the show.
> 
> The other issue is with DTV you no longer had Tivo for a choice for HD programming. What else were those users who refuse to leave Directv but now only watch HD programming supposed to do? Of course when you can't choose Tivo and there is only the one option, guess which one grows over time.
> 
> I think with DVRs you will never have a true idea what the real numbers are as a result of all this especially as the boxes are pushed more over standard receivers.


Cover up, your Bias is showing.


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## bigpuma

innocentfreak said:


> The problem in the case of the DVR is the numbers really don't mean all that much. They may speak a little to how few Tivo subscriptions there are but that is about all. The majority of people who have DVRs at least in my experience don't even really use them. They have them because they were told they were great and they were almost the same as paying for a non DVR. I can't even remember the last time I saw a non-DVR DTV receiver in any of the stores.


Really? I don't know anyone that has a DVR and doesn't use it.



> It is amazing when you talk to people and how many just accept the DVRs will miss shows. They do it because they aren't using DVRs the way most of us use DVRs. For example I can't remember the last time I watched live tv. Meanwhile the people I work with talk about how they have to be home by a certain time to watch their favorite show and they have a DVR. When you ask they either say they always forget to set a recording or they are afraid it won't record the show.


You have had a very different experience than I have. I don't know anyone that doesn't record shows they want to watch. Sure a lot of people still watch live TV, myself included at times, however they still record the shows they want to watch the most.



> The other issue is with DTV you no longer had Tivo for a choice for HD programming. What else were those users who refuse to leave Directv but now only watch HD programming supposed to do? Of course when you can't choose Tivo and there is only the one option, guess which one grows over time.


True but if there was a big demand for TiVo wouldn't those people leave DirecTV in favor of cable and a TiVo? The churn rate has remained very low at DirecTV since they abandoned the TiVo interface.

The problem that TiVo has is that most people think TiVo = DVR much like Kleenex = tissue. They don't care what brand DVR they get as long as it records shows.

Personally the new TiVo would have to be a lot better than the current HD DVR for me to switch, especially if it is going to cost extra each month.


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## innocentfreak

bigpuma said:


> Really? I don't know anyone that has a DVR and doesn't use it.
> 
> You have had a very different experience than I have. I don't know anyone that doesn't record shows they want to watch. Sure a lot of people still watch live TV, myself included at times, however they still record the shows they want to watch the most.


Well I work with all women and this is the case 95% of the time. Even my family who have DTivos don't bother to set shows. For them they find it overwhelming to view a full now playing list. If I didn't set season passes for my mother and print out a list of upcoming shows for my father they wouldn't even record anything. When my mother got Directv it was the same price whether she got Tivos or basic receivers so I ordered Tivos for her. They would rather just sit down and watch what is on. I realize this isn't always the case but seems pretty common at least with the people I talk to. My brother who has had a DTivo since the first model came out still only records 5 or 6 shows. He now has the HD DVR since he has no choice, but he mainly uses it for trickplay during sporting events.



bigpuma said:


> True but if there was a big demand for TiVo wouldn't those people leave DirecTV in favor of cable and a TiVo? The churn rate has remained very low at DirecTV since they abandoned the TiVo interface.


Don't rule out some people only have the option for satellite, not to mention most people stay for the sports packages. My brother has a choice of Fios or DTV. Without Sunday Ticket, he won't even consider Fios and the same goes for my father. I have friend who is staying with me while they finish building his new house. After using Fios and Tivo for a month or two, he only now thought to check to see what was available at his property. His options are Directv or Dish. None of the cable operators have run lines out to where he is building yet. Don't forget to take into account most people stay with what they are comfortable with. This applies whether it is cable companies, internet providers, cellphone companies, or anything else along those lines.



bigpuma said:


> The problem that TiVo has is that most people think TiVo = DVR much like Kleenex = tissue. They don't care what brand DVR they get as long as it records shows.
> 
> Personally the new TiVo would have to be a lot better than the current HD DVR for me to switch, especially if it is going to cost extra each month.


I agree. But the issue also stems from most people are just now experiencing their first DVRs and just the fact they can record something is a step up. Until they change their viewing habits like most of us have they won't be as concerned whether it misses a show since they watch it live. I forget the exact number but engadgethd on their podcast mentioned cable company DVRs had something like a 20% missed/failed recording rate and people just accept it.

I may sound biased to Tivo and I am somewhat since from using the Brighthouse DVR to the R15, Tivo has always been a superior experience for me. Obviously it isn't perfect or I wouldn't have built a Windows 7 DVR nor would I be looking forward to possible new cable card tuner announcements at CEDIA. I agree Tivo really needs to step up their next boxes not just for Directv but also for the stand alone market. For those who are happy with the DTV DVRs I am happy for you but for me they didn't work in my house.


----------



## shibby191

innocentfreak said:


> For those who are happy with the DTV DVRs I am happy for you but for me they didn't work in my house.


If the R15 is your only DirecTV DVR experience then I can see why you're jaded against them. The HR2x series is *light years* ahead of the R15. The R15 was programmed by NDS. It was a failure. And DirecTV admitted that when they kicked NDS to the curb and took DVR development in house which is now what you see on the HR2x series and has been pushed back down to the R16 DVR a bit as well. It's a whole new world. 

Cable DVRs may miss recordings 20% of the time, but on my HR20 and HR21 I haven't missed a recording in nearly 3 years. But maybe that's just me. :up:

But it's still not the Tivo UI so it will never be good enough for some people, no matter what.


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## innocentfreak

Well it isn't just the R15. While that is the only one I have used, until the 50 series limit is removed, the DTV DVRs just aren't an option to me. I have never used the new ones so I don't know how good or bad they are but with only 50 shows per DVR unless you use some boleon searches they just aren't suitable for my house. I have around 300 season passes right now on 3 Tivos and my 7MC DVR. 

I am in no way bashing the DTV DVR, but it wouldn't work for me. This is on top of thier lease model and more expensive product when compared to Fios who I made the switch to after 6 years of DTV.

In the past I probably would agree with you but after using Media Center I can see benefits of a different UI. I don't know how different the UI on the HRx is compared to the R15 but I have never liked DTVs UIs.


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## samo

> I have around 300 season passes right now on 3 Tivos and my 7MC DVR.


Are there even 300 repeating shows in existence on all the channels? Sorry, it is crazy to have that many season passes. Do you watch TV for a living?


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## innocentfreak

Lol no unfortunately I don't get paid to watch tv. I just over time have accumulated more and more season passes which is why I never even turn on live tv. If there was an easy way to link to the season passes I would do so. 300 is a little high for me but since I only switched to Fios in June I am still recording a bunch of shows in HD like concert series that I have previously seen just never in HD or where I could easily dump it to my server.


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## TyroneShoes

innocentfreak said:


> ...It is amazing when you talk to people and how many just accept the DVRs will miss shows. They do it because they aren't using DVRs the way most of us use DVRs. For example I can't remember the last time I watched live tv. Meanwhile the people I work with talk about how they have to be home by a certain time to watch their favorite show and they have a DVR. When you ask they either say they always forget to set a recording or they are afraid it won't record the show...


These are people who are luddites, and just won't embrace the technology, which is why such a terrific concept as a DVR has taken a decade or more to reach 30% penetration (and would be stuck under 10% if not for the push from vendors). Ironically, smart phones and Twitter don't seem to have this sort of problem enrapturing the masses; they don't seem to be able to get enough of meaningless social networking sites and fart apps. I just don't get it.

They obviously are not familiar with the reliability of Tivo, and of most other DVRs, or are so completely helpless that even the unthreatening friendly interface of Tivo is just too much for them. USA Today this week said each person on average watches 32.2 hours a week of television. I probably fall in that category, and yet I never watch live, just like you. If I record everything and miss only about 4 shows a year due to DVR malfunctions, that's a very strong reliability factor, about a 99.985% success rate. I'm not even sure the water department can boast a success rate figure that high.

It's also amazing to watch folks play back a DVR-ed show and sit through the commercials, but it happens all the time. The broadcast industry figures less than 20% of DVR owners actually skip commercials, which I find shocking and nearly unbelievable. I have skipped virtually every commercial since I won a BetaMax in a contest in 1975.


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## cbessant

TyroneShoes said:


> They obviously are not familiar with the reliability of Tivo, and of most other DVRs, or are so completely helpless that even the unthreatening friendly interface of Tivo is just too much for them. USA Today this week said each person on average watches 32.2 hours a week of television.


I can't remember the last time we watched a live show - everything we watched is TiVo'ed and we zip past commercials, or in the case of something like "America's Got Talent" filler crud we don't want to see. And the power to search and record programming without any effort. We keep a Wishlist for things like "Terry Fator" or "Westminster Kennel Club" so when something pops up on one of the 250+ channels, we nail it.

TiVo really catapulted TV content viewing/searching like none other. VCRs were great in their day, but TiVo really made a technology leap - kind of like going from a Sony Walkman cassette to an iPod, only TiVo did it better.

Seeing other DVRs forced on consumers without a choice by DTV offering TiVo, IMHO, is like living in the former USSR, or the 1984 "Big Brother" Mac Super Bowl commercial. At least with cable you have a choice of their DVR or TiVo. With DTV, not so much today until they finally bring back TiVo.

TiVo - It's a good thing


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## BOBCAT

I agree, There is no replacement for TiVo.
I hope the new HD TiVo uses the same peanut remote as my brain and hand is programed to run the remote without looking at it.

Way back in the day, commercials were entertaining and fun to watch. But now, just a lot of noise called music and quick seen cuts. Sometimes you don't know what they are trying to sell.
But commercials have there place. Gives you time to make a head call or get a snack.
The only commercials that influence me are the local food store commercials with their sale items for the week.

MR TiVo, it is ok to change the color of the remote, but please leave the layout the same.
If you have to change the style of the remote, please use the same remote codes so the old style remote will work with the new box.
Thanks


----------



## cbessant

BOBCAT said:


> Way back in the day, commercials were entertaining and fun to watch.
> 
> MR TiVo, it is ok to change the color of the remote, but please leave the layout the same.
> Thanks


OK, I'll admit: when I see a Bud commercial zing by, I'll backup and watch. After all these years, they still create some of he bets commercials I have ever seen.

Remote: As I recall, The Peanut won a technology award by the NYT or WSJ when it was released. I think it is a great remote: simple layout, not overly "buttonized", can I use it with my eyes closed and just eloquent. The only change I'd make (and this may just apply to the DTV TiVo Peanut): the On/Off button is just below the "Back 8 Sec" button. I've hit the On/Off more times than I care to remember. This is one button that should be up and out of the way. This is my only negative comment, and it is really nit in the grand scheme of TiVo.


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## BOBCAT

Hi Chuck,
When I say "Back in the day" I am talking about the '50's and '60'. Guess that dates me!
My favorite was the "Doctor Ross Dog Food" commercial.
You are right about the TV power button. It should be at the top of the remote, but what button would you want to move down to the power button location? the only ones that I would consider moving is ether the "exit" or "info" button. most likely the exit button as the info location is too close to the guide button that is used the most at the top. There is no room at the top to just add a button. Oh well, guess they will leave well enough alone. If they redesign the remote, it will delay the release of the HD TiVo another 6 months.


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## LAlawMedMBA

When my DirecTV TiVo SD unit became dysfunctional from overuse nearly two years ago, I was forced to adopt several R15 units. The technological retrogression in moving from TiVo to DirecTV DVRs is like driving a Cadillac (TiVo) one day, then receding into the horse & buggy era (DirecTV).

When I upgraded to HD, I was misinformed about TiVo availability until committing to a two-year contract with DirecTV, after which I learned that: (1) Current TiVo HD units only work with cable tv, and (2) the resumption of any business relationship between TiVo and DirecTV is uncertain, and may never eventuate.:down:

The HR23 DirecTV HD DVR is, amazingly, much worse than even the R15. Here are a few of its shortcomings: (1) Its severely cramped storage capacity restricts HD programming to 100 hours. (2) Whereas the R15 could be programmed up to one month in advance, the HR23 is limited to 14 days. (3) Responsiveness to remote control commands is so much slower on the HR23 than the already snail-like R15 that you will often need to press buttons several times, sometimes causing serious disruptions. (4) Worst of all, a half-second electrical outage wiped out all programs and settings on the HR23 on the twelfth day of its use. In the eight years that I have used DVRs, there have been more than a hundred such electrical outages, but none had any effect on DVR programming or settings until the HR23 came along.

Although I have several options, including Dish and Charter Cable, DirecTV offers several channels not available from competitors (including Link and an extra PBS source), and probably has more channels anyway, particularly HD and sports offerings. However, the recent loss of the Versus channel adds further to my frustration with DirecTV.


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## stevel

Welcome to the forum, but you seem rather badly misinformed. If you're comparing storage size, the HR23 is bigger than the TiVoHD. Both of course allow external storage add-ons.

Neither DirecTV DVRs nor TiVos have guide data more than two weeks out.

It is claimed that the TiVo-powered DirecTV HD DVR will be out in 2010. We shall see. I have been using the HR2x series for two years now, however, and think it's fine. I've never had a loss of programming info.

I will agree that the R15 was particularly bad. But it isn't at all like the HR2x nowadays.


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## shibby191

stevel said:


> Welcome to the forum, but you seem rather badly misinformed. If you're comparing storage size, the HR23 is bigger than the TiVoHD. Both of course allow external storage add-ons.
> 
> Neither DirecTV DVRs nor TiVos have guide data more than two weeks out.
> 
> It is claimed that the TiVo-powered DirecTV HD DVR will be out in 2010. We shall see. I have been using the HR2x series for two years now, however, and think it's fine. I've never had a loss of programming info.
> 
> I will agree that the R15 was particularly bad. But it isn't at all like the HR2x nowadays.


Pretty much agree with everything Steve says here.

1) HR23 has more hours of HD recording then just about any other DVR that exists, including Tivo HD. Easily expanded with an eSata drive should you find it lacking.

2) R15 has the same 2 week guide data the HR23 has

3) There have been some complaints of slowness on some units. Latest national release going out seems to cure that for many of the few that had it. Even at it's slowest my HR2x units are still faster then any of the many Tivo units I've owned in the last decade. But that's just me of course.

4) Well, any power outage, no matter how short, can fry a hard drive or other components. It's usually the "spike" of power when it the power comes back on that fries things. A cheap UPS unit will protect your DVR. You've just been lucky in the past if you've had frequent power outages and no problems. Any DVR based machine (DVR or computer) should be on a UPS to protect it.

And yes, the R15 was bad. The HR2x series is light years ahead of the R15 and even lightyears ahead of where they were at just 2 years ago.

Good luck.


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## innocentfreak

shibby191 said:


> 4) Well, any power outage, no matter how short, can fry a hard drive or other components. It's usually the "spike" of power when it the power comes back on that fries things. A cheap UPS unit will protect your DVR. You've just been lucky in the past if you've had frequent power outages and no problems. Any DVR based machine (DVR or computer) should be on a UPS to protect it.


I think he is referring to the fact the R15 stores everything in memory versus on the hard drive so if you have a brief lapse of power or have to reset the box you have to wait for it to reacquire the guide data. This of course means if you lose power at 7:50 you might miss the first few minutes of a show at least until it redownloads the current guide data. I don't know if this is still the case in the new DVRs.

Obviously everything should be on a UPS, but for example in my house that isn't an option in every room due to layout and room in the entertainment center. I have room for a small surge strip but none for a battery backup, trust me I have tried.


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## TyroneShoes

While I agree that the peanut remote is a technical marvel, ergonomically speaking, I have one issue with it:

It is too symmetrical, meaning it is not easy to determine if you are holding it upside down in the dark. Early on, I flushed the buffer a couple times by accident by changing channels inadvertantly. I haven't done that in quite some time, so maybe with practice its easier to tell.

A DVR is probably the most-advanced and technically challenging (to build correctly) item we own (or lease ) Your HDTV and iPhone only have a small subset of the systems that a DVR has. I thought the HR10-250 was in its day the single greatest piece of gear I'd ever seen, but there is a laundry list of improvements that Tivo never dreamed of, all alive and well in the HR2x.

I agree that it seems like living in a communist country when they replace your Tivo that you love with something different by force. In this case, however, it turned out to be mostly an improvement on the Tivo (not in every area, of course). So I'm cutting them a break. They had a tough job to do, big shoes to fill. But they did it right, and prevailed. Replacing the HR10-250 with something inferior would have definitely been an outrage. Replacing it with the HR2x has instead been progress.


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## fasTLane

The new Tivo can't get here soon enough.


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## 20TIL6

TyroneShoes said:


> While I agree that the peanut remote is a technical marvel, ergonomically speaking, I have one issue with it:
> 
> It is too symmetrical, meaning it is not easy to determine if you are holding it upside down in the dark.


The remotes for my S3 units have these ridges on the bottom of the lower end of the remote. Looks like you weren't the only one with that point.


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## cthomp21

TyroneShoes said:


> I agree that it seems like living in a communist country when they replace your Tivo that you love with something different by force. In this case, however, it turned out to be mostly an improvement on the Tivo (not in every area, of course). So I'm cutting them a break. They had a tough job to do, big shoes to fill. But they did it right, and prevailed. Replacing the HR10-250 with something inferior would have definitely been an outrage. Replacing it with the HR2x has instead been progress.


After living with a pair of HR22's for the past few months, I respectfully disagree.

Other than Mediashare (which has its quirks) and being able to decode MPEG-4, I can't think of anything that an HR2X is superior to my HR10-250's (in features that are important to me).

It is really, really slooooooooooooooooooowwwww. It is unintuitive (my 3yr old can operate our DTivo's like a pro). The interface is overly complicated. The remote just plain stinks (bring back the peanut).

I can't wait to kick the HR22's to the curb when the new HD Directivo's come out. Several years ago, a DTivo revolutionized the way that our family watches television. The HR22's feel like a step backwards.

That being said, I can understand whey some people love the HR2X series. They appeal to people who like to tinker. They appeal to people who prefer having all possible, available options continually available everywhere. They appeal to people who want more interaction with the DVR.


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## shibby191

cthomp21 said:


> It is unintuitive (my 3yr old can operate our DTivo's like a pro). The interface is overly complicated. The remote just plain stinks (bring back the peanut).


I've always found this statement curious. What exactly is unituitive or overly complicated about the UI of the HR2x?

I finally had to get rid of our last DirecTivo in the house because my wife hated the Tivo UI vs. the HR2x UI. And she always complained about how dang slow the DirecTivo was in comparison. So I finally got rid of it and got another HR2x to replace.

So I'm just curious what in your experience is unituitive in every day use? Not trying to flame, just trying to understand because so far in people I've know that have had DirecTivo's (a lot) I'm not seeing these complaints. The only complaint I've ever gotten from friends (and I've asked) is the lack of DLB and now that is no longer an issue. They have all said "thank god DLB is back, now I don't care about Tivo anymore".

Anyway....I want to learn.


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## bkdtv

shibby191 said:


> I've always found this statement curious. What exactly is unituitive or overly complicated about the UI of the HR2x?


There are thousands of posts on the topic, so you might want to spend more time reading TCF and DBSTalk.


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## stevel

Well, yes, but for each person who finds the HR2x UI "complicated" or "unintuitive", someone else thinks it's fine. If you read TCF, you get people used to "the TiVo way" and who treat that as the only way.


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## 20TIL6

stevel said:


> Well, yes, but for each person who finds the HR2x UI "complicated" or "unintuitive", someone else thinks it's fine. If you read TCF, you get people used to "the TiVo way" and who treat that as the only way.


Wow. 50% of HR2x users think the UI is complicated or unintuitive. 

Maybe it's not too late for the HD DirecTiVo?

3...2...1...


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## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> Wow. 50% of HR2x users think the UI is complicated or unintuitive.
> 
> Maybe it's not too late for the HD DirecTiVo?
> 
> 3...2...1...


by that opinion, 50 percent of the users think the tivo UI is cr...

only thing I can say is when my last HR10 unit finally breaks and Directv replaces it with a HR2X unit I will be playing "thank God and GreyHound it's gone" when I take it out to the back 50 and introduce it to Mr Smith and Mr's Wesson


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## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> by that opinion, 50 percent of the users think the tivo UI is cr...


No, that's not what stevel said. He said for every HR2x user....


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## cthomp21

shibby191 said:


> I've always found this statement curious. What exactly is unituitive or overly complicated about the UI of the HR2x?
> 
> I finally had to get rid of our last DirecTivo in the house because my wife hated the Tivo UI vs. the HR2x UI. And she always complained about how dang slow the DirecTivo was in comparison. So I finally got rid of it and got another HR2x to replace.
> 
> So I'm just curious what in your experience is unituitive in every day use? Not trying to flame, just trying to understand because so far in people I've know that have had DirecTivo's (a lot) I'm not seeing these complaints. The only complaint I've ever gotten from friends (and I've asked) is the lack of DLB and now that is no longer an issue. They have all said "thank god DLB is back, now I don't care about Tivo anymore".
> 
> Anyway....I want to learn.


Well, for starters, hitting the Tivo button at the top of the remote to access the Tivo interface with a simple list of everything you'd want to do (now playing list, search for programs, manage season passes, etc.)

My 3yr old, my technically challenged parents, and my elderly grandmother can all operate a DTivo. They all picked it up quickly because the Tivo button provides a type of jumping off point with a simple, easy to understand menu of items behind it.

The HR2X have DVR functions in a multitude of places. Want to search for shows? Well, that's under the Menu function. Want to access your now playing list? Press the List button. Want to activate DLB/DoublePlay? Press down twice.

My daughter (now almost 5) hasn't figured it out. I have to help her start any of her shows that we record for her. My wife can use it, but she complains about the interface and how slow it is. One thing she really dislikes is the lack of an audible feedback when a button is pushed (such as changing the channels).


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## tibber

cthomp21 said:


> Well, for starters, hitting the Tivo button at the top of the remote to access the Tivo interface with a simple list of everything you'd want to do (now playing list, search for programs, manage season passes, etc.)
> ...
> The HR2X have DVR functions in a multitude of places. Want to search for shows? Well, that's under the Menu function. Want to access your now playing list? Press the List button. Want to activate DLB/DoublePlay? Press down twice.
> ....


From the HR2x menu you have access to your entire "simple list of everything you'd want to do": My Playlist, Search for Shows, Manage Recordings, etc.

You also have access to On Demand; Music, Photos & More (Media share), Caller ID; TVmail (Messages); and Parental, Fav's & Setup. Yes, just like on TiVo, there are other shortcuts on the remote control to specific functions. Those are there on both companies' remotes to make things easier to get to the most often used items. Yet you still can use the menu button to get to them...

Cheers,
Tom


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## samo

tibber said:


> From the HR2x menu you have access to your entire "simple list of everything you'd want to do": My Playlist, Search for Shows, Manage Recordings, etc.
> 
> You also have access to On Demand; Music, Photos & More (Media share), Caller ID; TVmail (Messages); and Parental, Fav's & Setup. Yes, just like on TiVo, there are other shortcuts on the remote control to specific functions. Those are there on both companies' remotes to make things easier to get to the most often used items. Yet you still can use the menu button to get to them...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Not to mention color buttons. I use them all the time. TiVo UI hasn't changed in 10 years and is really dated. I find DirecTV UI more pleasant and useful. And RF remote is just an icing on the cake.


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## fasTLane

*We..want..the Tivo! We..want..the Tivo! We..want..the Tivo!....*


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## shibby191

Thanks for your comments.



cthomp21 said:


> Well, for starters, hitting the Tivo button at the top of the remote to access the Tivo interface with a simple list of everything you'd want to do (now playing list, search for programs, manage season passes, etc.)


Press the Menu button on the HR2x, same thing.



> My 3yr old, my technically challenged parents, and my elderly grandmother can all operate a DTivo. They all picked it up quickly because the Tivo button provides a type of jumping off point with a simple, easy to understand menu of items behind it.


Single press of the menu button does the same thing. Very easy to understand items available in the menu, similar to Tivo.



> The HR2X have DVR functions in a multitude of places. Want to search for shows? Well, that's under the Menu function.


Confused on this one. Everything you want to find is under one area, the Menu. Search is right on the main menu as well.



> Want to access your now playing list? Press the List button.


I don't understand why have an actual button on the remote to bring up the playlist is harder to use.  Heck, there is a List button on the Tivo remote.



> Want to activate DLB/DoublePlay? Press down twice.


And Tivo is the same only press down once. On the HR2x the first time you get a confirmation screen with which you press down again to activate. And this is harder to use how? Both Tivo and HR2x require knowledge to press the down arrow once to get to DLB.



> My daughter (now almost 5) hasn't figured it out. I have to help her start any of her shows that we record for her.


Sounds like you can simply tell her to press "list" which will bring up the "list" of shows and she can choose which one she wants.

I think most of your issues are simply spending 5 minutes to figure out a couple different ways of doing things. But all are very intuitive and easy to use.

Either that or it's just being stubborn that because it's not Tivo then it must be bad.

Anyway, good luck to you and your family.


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## fasTLane

*We..want..the Tivo! We..want..the Tivo! We..want..the Tivo!....*


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## cthomp21

shibby191 said:


> Thanks for your comments.
> 
> Press the Menu button on the HR2x, same thing.
> 
> Single press of the menu button does the same thing. Very easy to understand items available in the menu, similar to Tivo.
> 
> Confused on this one. Everything you want to find is under one area, the Menu. Search is right on the main menu as well.
> 
> I don't understand why have an actual button on the remote to bring up the playlist is harder to use.  Heck, there is a List button on the Tivo remote.
> 
> And Tivo is the same only press down once. On the HR2x the first time you get a confirmation screen with which you press down again to activate. And this is harder to use how? Both Tivo and HR2x require knowledge to press the down arrow once to get to DLB.
> 
> Sounds like you can simply tell her to press "list" which will bring up the "list" of shows and she can choose which one she wants.
> 
> I think most of your issues are simply spending 5 minutes to figure out a couple different ways of doing things. But all are very intuitive and easy to use.
> 
> Either that or it's just being stubborn that because it's not Tivo then it must be bad.
> 
> Anyway, good luck to you and your family.


Uhhh... Hello? 

I don't need lessons on how to operate an HR2X. I'm quite proficient and know all of the menus, shortcuts, extras features, etc...

I am stating an OPINION on what interface I prefer.


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## BOBCAT

Well... there are some people that are waiting to take the HR2x to the E/waist when the HD TiVo comes out, then there are others that want to "introduce the HR10-250 to Mr Smith and Mr's Wesson out in the back 40" 
My question is if you wanted to introduce it to Mr Smith and Mr's Wesson, why are you waiting until it fails? You can trade it in at any time to get a HR2x from Directv.
Guess that you like the HR10-250 a little more than you let on! 

On the remote control:
"It is too symmetrical, meaning it is not easy to determine if you are holding it upside down in the dark" 
When you pick up the remote in the dark, you can tell if it is right side up, or up side down just by the feel. Your thumb falls right on the up-down-left-right button when right side up. If it is up side down, you feel a bunch of small buttons under your thumb.
It is a no brainier.
The Peanut remote was designed to fit the palm of your hand and run with one hand. It is a very ergo designed remote, not a rectangle brick that is awkward to hold and takes 2 hands to operate in some cases. 

HR10-250 slow?
My HR10's move right along. no delays in changing channels, going to the menus.

Most slow problems are caused by failing hard drives which can be easily cloned and replaced using MSFlive. It doesn't require typing command strings, just point and click.
I have a 500GB in one HR10, and a 750GB in the other. They are SATA drives with a adapter to convert to PATA that I got on Ebay for $6. 

At one time I had 4 HR10's running. After TiVo/Directv did some software upgrades years ago, they resolved the "slow" problem. The HR10's move right along just fine. When I upgraded to 7200 RPM seagate hard drives, they were even faster. For years I haven't had any lockup's, freezes, or any other reason to power cycle/ reboot these machines. The only time I take them down is about every 6 months to blow the dust out of them to keep them running cool.
Even though there is only 6 HD channels left from Directv that it can receive for now, I mainly use the HR10's for over the air local HD TV programs. It would make me happy if Directv could leave those last 6 channels running MPEG2 until the new HD TiVo's comes out, but if they go away, I will still use the HR10's until the new HD TiVo comes out.

Everyone has there point of view, guess you can tell what camp I'm in. But I respect the views of the people that like/own the HR2x also.
73


----------



## shibby191

cthomp21 said:


> Uhhh... Hello?
> 
> I don't need lessons on how to operate an HR2X. I'm quite proficient and know all of the menus, shortcuts, extras features, etc...
> 
> I am stating an OPINION on what interface I prefer.


Totally understand and I appreciate what you posted. I was simply pointing out that using the menu button instead of the Tivo button to do the same thing (for example) isn't all that hard and unintuitive as you stated.

It doesn't change the fact you don't like it, but it also doesn't change the fact that it's just as easy to use, just different.


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## HiDefGator

The RF remote on the HR2x is still one of my favorite parts. No more having to point it at the box. 

I also love the ability to play an entire group of shows a once. I can press play on the hannah montana group and get instant 2 hour baby sitting service.


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## LAlawMedMBA

stevel said:


> Welcome to the forum, but you seem rather badly misinformed. If you're comparing storage size, the HR23 is bigger than the TiVoHD. Both of course allow external storage add-ons.
> 
> Incorrect. The HR23 has 50% less storage capacity than my TiVo HD XL THX DVR. You failed to indicate the model of your TiVo HD DVR, but it apparently is not state-of-the-art.
> 
> >>Neither DirecTV DVRs nor TiVos have guide data more than two weeks out.
> 
> Wrong again. The DirecTV R15, which you admit is terrible, nevertheless had manual programming for up to one month in advance. The HR 23 retrogresses technologically, restricting manual programming to no more than 14 days.
> 
> >>It is claimed that the TiVo-powered DirecTV HD DVR will be out in 2010. We shall see. I have been using the HR2x series for two years now, however, and think it's fine. I've never had a loss of programming info.
> 
> If you are intimately familiar with TiVo, as I am, then you would have to also admit that all of the DirecTV brand DVRs, including the HR2x series, are vastly inferior in many ways. I will just name a few:
> 
> (1) Commercial skipping (i.e., zapping) is a breeze with TiVo, but extremely difficult and time-consuming with the DirecTV DVRs.
> 
> (2) It is easy to have what DirecTV calls a "Priority List" of far more than one hundred programs, categories, and other types of automatic recordings with TiVo, but the maximum is constrained to 50 with DirecTV DVRs--hardly enough to even include favorite prime time major network programs, let alone desired programs on all of the other channels.
> 
> (3) Whereas TiVo enabled automatic recording by category, category searches are impossible with DirecTV DVRs. You must specify a keyword or title first before you can indicate a category.
> 
> (4) Recommendations for viewing, a wonderful feature in TiVo, is utterly absent from DirecTV DVRs.
> 
> (5) Rating of programs, using green thumbs up or red thumbs down, which enables TiVo to assess your preferences, is completely missing from DirecTV DVRs.
> 
> >>I will agree that the R15 was particularly bad. But it isn't at all like the HR2x nowadays.


The HR2x, as you call them, are also bad. When I asked DirecTV why the responsiveness to remote control commands was so interminable, and so much slower even than the sluggish R15, they blamed it on the additional memory requirements of HD.


----------



## stevel

I have an HR10, HR20 and HR21. I find the HR10 to be slower than the HR21 in many operations.


----------



## HiDefGator

I would have to say that my Hr2x's vary a lot in responsiveness. Usually they are faster than my old hr10. But occasionally they seem to be busy doing other things. Just not things I told them to do.


----------



## shibby191

According to what I see on other sites, the latest national release that is rolling out really helps most people that had speed issues. Hopefully it helps those here with issues.


----------



## bkdtv

HiDefGator said:


> I also love the ability to play an entire group of shows a once. I can press play on the hannah montana group and get instant 2 hour baby sitting service.


I don't know about the DirecTiVos, but the TivoHD got this feature 18 months ago. You just hit PLAY on the group and the group contents are played from start to finish, starting with the oldest recording.

TiVo added single-click delete (no confirmation) with the CLEAR button at the same time.


----------



## stevel

DirecTV TiVos have never had either feature.


----------



## fasTLane

bkdtv said:


> TiVo added single-click delete (no confirmation) with the CLEAR button at the same time.





stevel said:


> DirecTV TiVos have never had either feature.


The DirecTivo in this house has this feature.


----------



## bkdtv

stevel said:


> DirecTV TiVos have never had either feature.





fasTLane said:


> The DirecTivo in this house has this feature.


I'm confused by a number of posts to this forum and DBSTalk. I'll routinely see someone mention an "advantage" for the HR2x, and my first thought is, "Huh? My TivoHD got that feature 12/18/24 months ago."

We see some people who claim to have the feature on their DirecTiVo and others who don't have the slightest clue about it. Did certain DirecTiVos receive software updates that others did not? Do some people with same DirecTiVo model have older software than others? Or are most HR2x users referring to the TiVo software as it existed 1-2 years ago?


----------



## stevel

I may be wrong about the "clear" to delete. I don't think I'm wrong about playing multiple shows.


----------



## sjberra

bkdtv said:


> I'm confused by a number of posts to this forum and DBSTalk. I'll routinely see someone mention an "advantage" for the HR2x, and my first thought is, "Huh? My TivoHD got that feature 12/18/24 months ago."
> 
> We see some people who claim to have the feature on their DirecTiVo and others who don't have the slightest clue about it. Did certain DirecTiVos receive software updates that others did not? Do some people with same DirecTiVo model have older software than others? Or are most HR2x users referring to the TiVo software as it existed 1-2 years ago?


The stock HR10's that are not blocked from updating will have the same version and functionality that directv sends down, saying there there are hacks out there that can be used to change the functionality and abilities of the software.


----------



## cwleach203

My DirectTivo box has the dual tuners that I can switch back and forth between without actually having to record either one. It's awesome for football games. I can pause one game flip tuners and watch another game. When that game hits a commercial, I pause it, flip tuners back and fast forward thru the commercials of the first game I was watching. Do that thru the entire game, and I watch two football games with no commercials and never record a thing.. That's a huge feature to me that is missing in the Direct DVR. That's the only reason I'm waiting for the new TIVO HD DVR to come out.


----------



## litzdog911

cwleach203 said:


> My DirectTivo box has the dual tuners that I can switch back and forth between without actually having to record either one. It's awesome for football games. I can pause one game flip tuners and watch another game. When that game hits a commercial, I pause it, flip tuners back and fast forward thru the commercials of the first game I was watching. Do that thru the entire game, and I watch two football games with no commercials and never record a thing.. That's a huge feature to me that is missing in the Direct DVR. That's the only reason I'm waiting for the new TIVO HD DVR to come out.


What DirecTV DVR do you have? The HD DVRs (HR20, 21, 22, 23) and R22 SD DVR are currently being updated with a new "DoublePlay" feature that provides dual 90-minute buffers, better than the 30-min buffers provided with the Tivo DVRs. So you don't really need to wait for the new Tivo HD DVR to get this feature, just wait until your HD DVR gets the new software update.


----------



## fasTLane

cwleach203 said:


> My DirectTivo box has the dual tuners that I can switch back and forth between without actually having to record either one. It's awesome for football games. I can pause one game flip tuners and watch another game. When that game hits a commercial, I pause it, flip tuners back and fast forward thru the commercials of the first game I was watching. Do that thru the entire game, and I watch two football games with no commercials and never record a thing.. That's a huge feature to me that is missing in the Direct DVR. That's the only reason I'm waiting for the new TIVO HD DVR to come out.


I am waiting just like yourself. The upcoming Tivo upgrade will be icing on the cake.


----------



## shibby191

cwleach203 said:


> That's a huge feature to me that is missing in the Direct DVR. That's the only reason I'm waiting for the new TIVO HD DVR to come out.


As mentioned, you probably have it already on your DirecTV DVR and if not will very soon. Hit the down arrow to activate.


----------



## cwleach203

litzdog911 said:


> What DirecTV DVR do you have? The HD DVRs (HR20, 21, 22, 23) and R22 SD DVR are currently being updated with a new "DoublePlay" feature that provides dual 90-minute buffers, better than the 30-min buffers provided with the Tivo DVRs. So you don't really need to wait for the new Tivo HD DVR to get this feature, just wait until your HD DVR gets the new software update.


So you are saying the new Directv HD DVRs will have the same features once the updates go out... Where is a good place to look at the features that the Directv HD DVR currently has and will soon have?

I have the old R10.. I have been holding on to those for along time because at the time the Directv DVR was missing so many features.. I saw thru the years the Directv DVR was getting a lot of the same features so I was glad to see that..


----------



## stevel

dbstalk.com is the best reference. For discussion of pending features, join the "Cutting Edge" section of the forum.


----------



## codespy

TyroneShoes said:


> ......meaning it is not easy to determine if you are holding it upside down in the dark. Early on, I flushed..........a couple times by accident...........I haven't done that in quite some time, so maybe with practice its easier to tell.


I don't want to know what you're doing in the dark nor what you practice or what you do or don't do.......

Sorry I couldn't resist T.


----------



## samo

stevel said:


> I may be wrong about the "clear" to delete. I don't think I'm wrong about playing multiple shows.


I never tried playing multiple shows on DirecTivo, but "clear" to delete works from "now playing" for quite some time.


----------



## Wil

litzdog911 said:


> The HD DVRs (HR20, 21, 22, 23) and R22 SD DVR are currently being updated with a new "DoublePlay" feature that provides dual 90-minute buffers, better than the 30-min buffers provided with the Tivo DVRs. So you don't really need to wait for the new Tivo HD DVR to get this feature, just wait until your HD DVR gets the new software update.


September, 2009. Could have been even worse, 2010-2011, I suppose; except that even after all this time it's an inferior knock-off.

But I forgot, in this Tivo forum Tivo is inferior and DirecTV is the best of all possible worlds.


----------



## fasTLane

Wil said:


> But I forgot, in this Tivo forum Tivo is inferior and DirecTV is the best of all possible worlds.


*LOL*


----------



## shibby191

Wil said:


> September, 2009. Could have been even worse, 2010-2011, I suppose; except that even after all this time it's an inferior knock-off.


LOL. Yea, works the same and with dual 90 minute buffers. Sounds inferior to me. Tivo coolaid must be good today. Almost as good as the DirecTV coolaid.


----------



## magnus

I wish that Tivo and Directv were not so tight lipped about the features and terms of the new boxes. It sure would be nice to know what the extra cost might be and what features will you get for it.


----------



## shibby191

magnus said:


> I wish that Tivo and Directv were not so tight lipped about the features and terms of the new boxes. It sure would be nice to know what the extra cost might be and what features will you get for it.


Well, when it doesn't exist yet and Tivo keeps delaying it, kinda hard to advertise features and what not that they have no idea if Tivo will deliver on or not.


----------



## magnus

I don't think it's too early to give some details. I'd think that Directv could at least give some pricing details.


----------



## stevel

That's not their style - and they probably haven't figured out pricing yet anyway, as that's usually one of the last things to be decided. I expect to see something at CES in January.


----------



## shibby191

stevel said:


> That's not their style - and they probably haven't figured out pricing yet anyway, as that's usually one of the last things to be decided. I expect to see something at CES in January.


Exactly. When has DirecTV ever offered such information so far ahead of time. Typically not until it's actually released or very shortly before. And I'm sure DirecTV has put a gag order or sort on Tivo to keep their mouth shut on such things.

If Tivo shows nothing at CES then be worried it will be out at all in 2010. DirecTV doesn't go to CES anymore so I wouldn't expect anything out of them.


----------



## fasTLane

Thank goodness for the HR10-250! Makes the wait bearable.


----------



## shibby191

fasTLane said:


> Thank goodness for the HR10-250! Makes the wait bearable.


LOL. Yea. I'm sure all the NFL games in HD looked great on the HR10. Oh wait...


----------



## samo

fasTLane said:


> Thank goodness for the HR10-250! Makes the wait bearable.


Sorry to disappoint you, but you will not get the "TiVo loyal fan" medal. It is given to people who drop DirecTV and buy TiVo HD with lifetime so they can watch pause ads


----------



## Matt L

I've been enjoying double play since May and it's one of the reasons I opted to switch to the HR2x series. And now there are more goodies out there. I used to be in the TiVo or die camp, but now i just chuckle when i read all these posts. I have 2 guides set up, One is all channels less crap, and the other is Hd. The HD guide says 120 + channels, now to be honest it includes my OTA sub channels, but even without those it's a hell of a lot more than the 7 the HR10's are getting.

You guys can smugly sit there holding your TiVo remote feeling superior, while I have over a 100 HD choices available to me and you have only 7. Ok.... Sure...


----------



## innocentfreak

samo said:


> Sorry to disappoint you, but you will not get the "TiVo loyal fan" medal. It is given to people who drop DirecTV and buy TiVo HD with lifetime so they can watch pause ads


I guess that would put me in that boat, but I don't even notice the ads. Then again I only pause something if I have to leave the room or do something where my attention won't be on the TV.


----------



## samo

Matt L said:


> I've been enjoying double play since May and it's one of the reasons I opted to switch to the HR2x series. And now there are more goodies out there. I used to be in the TiVo or die camp, but now i just chuckle when i read all these posts. I have 2 guides set up, One is all channels less crap, and the other is Hd. The HD guide says 120 + channels, now to be honest it includes my OTA sub channels, but even without those it's a hell of a lot more than the 7 the HR10's are getting.
> 
> You guys can smugly sit there holding your TiVo remote feeling superior, while I have over a 100 HD choices available to me and you have only 7. Ok.... Sure...


Just curious why you set up HD guide. It is one of the standard options on the guide menu. I can see making custom guide for "all channels less crap" (I do it too) and "just channel that I really watch", but "all HD channels" is already pre-set.


----------



## magnus

Yep, too much is made of this. It's not even something that bothers me.



innocentfreak said:


> I guess that would put me in that boat, but I don't even notice the ads. Then again I only pause something if I have to leave the room or do something where my attention won't be on the TV.


----------



## sjberra

innocentfreak said:


> I guess that would put me in that boat, but I don't even notice the ads. Then again I only pause something if I have to leave the room or do something where my attention won't be on the TV.


why would I even want pause ads on a unit? Use the dvr to bypass the annoying things on a program and then get subjected to them if I have to pause the unit for something? Wonder what the kick back amount to Tivo is for having the ads on the unit


----------



## TyroneShoes

codespy said:


> I don't want to know what you're doing in the dark nor what you practice or what you do or don't do.......
> 
> Sorry I couldn't resist T.


 You could just ignore my posts like most folks. That would protect you. In fact, you should probably stop reading this one right now.
>
>
>
>
>
>
OK, don't say I didn't warn you. Let's just say that even if I might be very uninhibited, everyone has to draw a line somewhere. That said, I'll wager the peanut remote has gone (but never in my house) where no man has gone before probably more often than any other remote, if you get my drift (use your apparently-vivid imagination). 

(I have never been less proud of a post )


----------



## 20TIL6

samo said:


> Sorry to disappoint you, but you will not get the "TiVo loyal fan" medal. It is given to people who drop DirecTV and buy TiVo HD with lifetime so they can watch pause ads


What medal? I want my medal.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Matt L said:


> ...I used to be in the TiVo or die camp, but now i just chuckle when i read all these posts...


So, not to read between the lines, but when you look back at the person you were at one time (Tivo-or-dier) you also laugh at how ridiculous that person was acting?

I guess we all grow. Good for you. Glad you didn't actually "or die".



Matt L said:


> ...You guys can smugly sit there holding your TiVo remote feeling superior, while I have over a 100 HD choices available to me and you have only 7...


 Well now I feel _really _smug and superior, because I have both. My HR20's are capable of any channel and are my primary recorders which have lots of slick features that Tivo arrogantly dismissed and/or never dreamed of, and I also have my HR10-250's, which can get about 85% of what I watch from OTA HD channels with an ergonomic GUI and good search, slo-mo, and suggestions abilities as my backup recorders. Tsk tsk, all you pitiful poor suckers with only one platform, what a shame.


----------



## 20TIL6

sjberra said:


> why would I even want pause ads on a unit? Use the dvr to bypass the annoying things on a program and then get subjected to them if I have to pause the unit for something? Wonder what the kick back amount to Tivo is for having the ads on the unit


You know, in O&G, if you don't take some profits from the end product and invest in new exploration.... eventually there is nothing to support the end product at all. So that is why it is a common business cycle for that industry.

DVRs without some sort of acceptable inclusion of advertising are equally disruptive in the business cycle of content. The 30 second spot is gone. You pay DirecTV for delivery. DirecTV pays for license to broadcast. But advertising pays for content creation in this model.

So in the long term, all DVR platforms will have ad inclusion. I actually don't mind TiVo's at all. I'm not interrupted, and sometimes the stuff is of interest actually. The only way out of ad inclusion is ala carte programming where the consumer shoulders the cost. That's possible, and the shows would probably get a lot better! But I really think the telcos and cable are better apt to deliver this model just from an infrastructure aspect.


----------



## magnus

What features does an HR20 have that a TivoHD or S3 does not. Are you comparing apples to apples?



TyroneShoes said:


> My HR20's are capable of any channel and are my primary recorders which have lots of slick features that Tivo arrogantly dismissed and/or never dreamed of, and I also have my HR10-250's, which can get about 85% of what I watch from OTA HD channels with an ergonomic GUI and good search, slo-mo, and suggestions abilities as my backup recorders. Tsk tsk, all you pitiful poor suckers with only one platform, what a shame.


----------



## Matt L

TyroneShoes said:


> So, not to read between the lines, but when you look back at the person you were at one time (Tivo-or-dier) you also laugh at how ridiculous that person was acting?
> 
> I guess we all grow. Good for you. Glad you didn't actually "or die".
> 
> Well now I feel _really _smug and superior, because I have both. My HR20's are capable of any channel and are my primary recorders which have lots of slick features that Tivo arrogantly dismissed and/or never dreamed of, and I also have my HR10-250's, which can get about 85% of what I watch from OTA HD channels with an ergonomic GUI and good search, slo-mo, and suggestions abilities as my backup recorders. Tsk tsk, all you pitiful poor suckers with only one platform, what a shame.


Well, I have both too, but the TiVo get very, very little use now. I have AM21's or HR20's so all receivers have OTA capability. I much prefer to record the MPEG4 streams since they take up less space and I rarely if ever record a sub channel.

As to the other post about my channel lists, I set up HD only for just that. I don't watch anything, unless it's really compelling, if it is not HD. I've never seen an HD only option available on the HR2x series. If you mean the sort function, that just makes a few more key presses when none are needed.


----------



## samo

Matt L said:


> As to the other post about my channel lists, I set up HD only for just that. I don't watch anything, unless it's really compelling, if it is not HD. I've never seen an HD only option available on the HR2x series. If you mean the sort function, that just makes a few more key presses when none are needed.


You click guide twice and it opens the menu for the preset guide options like "movies", "sports", "news", etc. One of the options is "All HD channels".
If you select an option, then only channels in this option will show up in a guide.


----------



## fasTLane

*Official: Tivo says "DVR rollouts with... DirecTV are on track" *

*The* mother of threads gone off topic.... moderators?

Or is this merely a *sales* "forum"?


----------



## 20TIL6

fasTLane said:


> *Official: Tivo says "DVR rollouts with... DirecTV are on track" *
> 
> *The* mother of threads gone off topic.... moderators?
> 
> Or is this merely a *sales* "forum"?


What makes me chuckle is the attention these "new HD DirecTiVo" threads get.


Will never happen, vapor... it's delayed vapor.
There isn't a significant number of DirecTiVo users still holding out.
DirecTV does not need TiVo (certainly true)
Current/Future DirecTV customers will gain nothing by opting for the new TiVo.
The 5+ year-old HR10-250 is crap next to the latest HR2X (and guess what, my iPod Touch is a lot better than my original iPod too)

A whole bunch of protesting, a whole bunch of "Just move along, nothing to see here". Nobody is interested.

And yet these threads get thousands of views and at least hundreds of inputs.


----------



## magnus

And my apples to apples comment is validated again here but no one responded to the original comment. What can an HR20 do that a TivoHD/S3 cannot?



20TIL6 said:


> [*]The 5+ year-old HR10-250 is crap next to the latest HR2X (and guess what, my iPod Touch is a lot better than my original iPod too)
> [/LIST]


----------



## shibby191

magnus said:


> And my apples to apples comment is validated again here but no one responded to the original comment. What can an HR20 do that a TivoHD/S3 cannot?


Don't know. But how much does that matter since it can't be used with DirecTV anyway?

I think assuming that all the TivoHD/S3 features will be in any new DirecTivo is assuming too much. In the initial press release it was stated that it would run on DirecTV's multimedia platform. Thus if it does MRV it would use DirecTV's MRV for example. It would need to work on the DirecTV Media Share and be able to work with the DECA SWM modules and such for networking over coax. These things could even be the source of the delay if Tivo is having trouble getting that to work.

We shall see and CES will be a key telling on progress.


----------



## cthomp21

shibby191 said:


> I think assuming that all the TivoHD/S3 features will be in any new DirecTivo is assuming too much. In the initial press release it was stated that it would run on DirecTV's multimedia platform. Thus if it does MRV it would use DirecTV's MRV for example. It would need to work on the DirecTV Media Share and be able to work with the DECA SWM modules and such for networking over coax. These things could even be the source of the delay if Tivo is having trouble getting that to work.


From my understanding reading through the hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts on dbstalk, the hardware platform between a S3 Tivo and an HR2x is nearly identical. They both operate using linux too. The major physical difference is the tuners - satellite for HR2x and cable/cable card for S3 Tivo.

There's even some speculation that the Tivo software could be a download for existing HR2x boxes based on information disclosed at shareholder meetings and other public disclosures that have been trickling out over the past year.

I dunno. In any case, it will be great when some concrete info becomes available.


----------



## nrc

20TIL6 said:


> What medal? I want my medal.


DirecTV keeps sending me stuff but I throw it away without reading it. I guess I should check. Maybe it's something about my medal.


----------



## magnus

TyroneShoes said:


> My HR20's are capable of any channel and are my primary recorders which have lots of slick features that Tivo arrogantly dismissed and/or never dreamed of, and I also have my HR10-250's, which can get about 85% of what I watch from OTA HD channels with an ergonomic GUI and good search, slo-mo, and suggestions abilities as my backup recorders. Tsk tsk, all you pitiful poor suckers with only one platform, what a shame.


That was the original comment.... Tivo arrogantly dismissed and/or never dreamed of.

I was curious what this statement meant because from what I can tell my TivoHD/S3 does everything thing that my sister's HR20 can do and more.

It never was Tivo's fault that Directv decided to close their system and that the FCC did not force the SatCOs to use a standard like cablecard. So, if there ever is a box from Tivo (like HR20) or software from Tivo to be put on the HR20... then it would be nice to know what features to expect as basic things that the Directv service already has. And what features would having Tivo bring to you for the money.

I would think that for example you could use DirecTV's MRV and Tivo's MRV. So, I could have a Directv Tivo and a SA Tivo that could move shows back and forth.



shibby191 said:


> Don't know. But how much does that matter since it can't be used with DirecTV anyway?
> 
> I think assuming that all the TivoHD/S3 features will be in any new DirecTivo is assuming too much. In the initial press release it was stated that it would run on DirecTV's multimedia platform. Thus if it does MRV it would use DirecTV's MRV for example. It would need to work on the DirecTV Media Share and be able to work with the DECA SWM modules and such for networking over coax. These things could even be the source of the delay if Tivo is having trouble getting that to work.
> 
> We shall see and CES will be a key telling on progress.


----------



## samo

> Tivo arrogantly dismissed and/or never dreamed of.
> 
> I was curious what this statement meant because from what I can tell my TivoHD/S3 does everything thing that my sister's HR20 can do and more.


Below are my personal "must have" features TiVo does not have that I posted earlier in this thread, I'm sure Tyrone can come up with more when he revisits this thread. Like, for example HD guide or one button CC switch. I would add 1.5 hour dual buffer if I posted my "must haves" today - it is no longer public beta CE feature, it has been released.


samo said:


> 1. PIP window in a guide and now playing list.
> 2. CID similar to HR2X
> 3. FSI of some kind
> 4. 1080P output
> 5. Multiple custom guide settings (favorite channels)
> 6. Interactive features and mix channels


----------



## Jonathan_S

magnus said:


> And my apples to apples comment is validated again here but no one responded to the original comment. What can an HR20 do that a TivoHD/S3 cannot?


If you've got one of the semi-recent beta software builds on it (like my friend's does) you can:

1. Display an integrated Now Playing list that shows all the programs on all your HR20s.
2. when doing MRV equivalent, stream HD programs at faster than real-time, including ability to fast forward into the section not yet streamed.
3. Stream programs that are still being recorded onto their original DVR. (You can get a 2nd HR20 to within about 5 seconds of "real-time" compared to the HR20 that's actually recording the program.

And that's just the couple nice things I know about from a few minutes experimenting with his boxes.

I don't know that I'd trade TiVo's wishlist functionality for it (for example), but in several ways the HR20's multi-room viewing is superior to TiVo's.


----------



## magnus

That's a list worth looking at. FSI, PIP, and CID are not on the list of must have. 



Jonathan_S said:


> If you've got one of the semi-recent beta software builds on it (like my friend's does) you can:
> 
> 1. Display an integrated Now Playing list that shows all the programs on all your HR20s.
> 2. when doing MRV equivalent, stream HD programs at faster than real-time, including ability to fast forward into the section not yet streamed.
> 3. Stream programs that are still being recorded onto their original DVR. (You can get a 2nd HR20 to within about 5 seconds of "real-time" compared to the HR20 that's actually recording the program.
> 
> And that's just the couple nice things I know about from a few minutes experimenting with his boxes.
> 
> I don't know that I'd trade TiVo's wishlist functionality for it (for example), but in several ways the HR20's multi-room viewing is superior to TiVo's.


----------



## TyroneShoes

magnus said:


> What features does an HR20 have that a TivoHD or S3 does not. Are you comparing apples to apples?


I only do that in the grocery store. I am not comparing anything to anything, but you can if you feel the need. I am not that up to speed on the new Tivo HD; my point of reference is the HR10-250, so I would have to ask _you _how the Tivo HD compares to that first, I guess.

Does your new Tivo overlap recordings? Or does it still punch a 20-second hole between back-to-back programs? In most cases, The HR2x will automatically overlap (without resorting to padding) up to 4 simultaneous (two about to end, two about to begin) recordings. You get a little extra on each end instead of a truncated cliffhanger or "joining in progress" every time. I'm not sure the Tivo engineers ever realized that adjacent recordings could actually overlap on the same tuner, a feature that could have been in every Dtivo if they simply _had _realized it.

Does Tivo go to a "live" mode on channel change? Or is there still the delay? The HR2x is live until you invoke trick play.

The HR2x has both 30SKIP and 30SLIP functions available. Which of those does the Tivo have? I'm guessing its probably limited to 30SKIP.

Does it still have X1/5th slo-mo? Or has it been upgraded to the smoother more practical X1/3rd slo-mo speed that the HR2x has?

Does Tivo have the option for external HDDs? Or is it just a bit more complicated than simply plugging in an off-the-shelf eSATA? Can you just drop a bare drive into the box replacing the original one and expect it to automagically be a full-blown Tivo again directly after boot up? Or do you have to fuss with an image? Or do you still have to marry the old drive to the new, halving the reliability, and meaning that if either fails, both drives are screwed?

Can you get 215 hours of recording on a 1 TB drive? Or is it more like only 160 hours? I've got two upgraded HR20's and two upgraded HR10's for about 750 hours of HD storage, more than I will ever need. But the Tivos only account for about 166 of those 750 hours between them.

If you want to add CableCards, just how much does cable charge for that truck roll? I'm hearing about $50 a pop if you're lucky for many large MSOs. When that breaks, does cable point the finger at Tivo, who is pointing the finger back at cable? Sounds costly and frustrating to me, but I can only imagine, as the HR2x is a self-contained system, as was the HR10-250. Do they charge another $50 for the truck roll to take them out when you finally get fed up?

How many of those 130+ HD channels that DTV has does cable have? According to the websites, not that many, apparently. DTV is about ready to add another slew of them. The only thing local Cox currently (finally) has that I don't have is TravelHD and MSNBCHD (neither of which I could give two $#!+s about).

Does your program supplier have an 8-split for NFL games? College games? I guess you don't need a split if you aren't getting that many simultaneous games, do you? How about multi-split tennis or golf tournaments? _Any _interactive sports stuff? How many different cars can you listen in to during NASCAR races?

Can you turn on/off CC in three button presses? or is it still more like twenty?

Can you quickpick any of 9 favorite channels in two button presses?

Does Tivo have the lower-third quick menu over full-screen live video? How about a PIG?

Can you select the channel in the EPG grid and press "info" and get everything for the next 12-14 days on that channel listed chronologically, automatically? Or are you limited to that old-style Tivo guide in the first place?

Does Tivo really respond to TC forum suggestions? Does Tivo have a "Cutting Edge"-style program? Whether they do or not, has the software evolved significantly in the last 3 years, or has it pretty much remained the same since v3.1 except for that embarrasing foray into v6.x that lowered reliability and caused numerous problems which essentially made that upgrade a disaster?

BTW, what do you have to pay for that thing? I got both my HR20's for the cost of shipping alone, and no contract extension. Plus a free dish and install. My last HR10-250 was free as well, and also did not extend my contract (which has been over for two years).

I think I might just be getting started. DirecTV has acquired the Replay technology, which hasn't even begun to show its influence yet. DISH has Slingbox on board. Both are gobbling up technology at a record pace. What's cable doing? All Tivo has is...Tivo. Cash-strapped and living from check to check in the worst economy in 80 years. All I really know is that I would be nervous with a company whose main strategy for keeping afloat is simply to sue the pants off of everyone else.

BTW, how long are those buffers on Tivo?


----------



## magnus

Your point of reference is against older technology the HR10-250 and against restrictions that Directv had against Tivo.

Tivo HD/S3
I really don't have an overlap problems.

Don't care about an external drive cause I don't want the problems with knowing if it's the internal or external that has a problem (when a drive fails). And from what I've heard the HR20 only uses the external and not both.

FF Skip whatever... I just use the FF button and when I see the show come up then I press play. Bam, that's all I need.

I really only need the 250GB that I have. So, not an issue there for me.

CCs are not something that I care about either. I use OTA and don't need a truck roll or whatever for that.

Don't care about the bloated amount of channels that Directv has. I'm not interested in paying $100 for 500 channels I couldn't possibly watch. I only watched about 5 channels above the basic OTA channels.

Buffer? really? Do we really need that large a buffer? If so, I'd like to configure it anyway.

Slingbox? I don't want that integrated into my DVR.

I paid $400 for a lifetime S3 (the real deal) and it cost me about $1000 per year for Directv each year.

You paid for shipping and about $1000 per year for TV. You tell me who has saved more.

Nervous? Tivo? Maybe Directv, Dish, and Cable should be because TV is changing and they are only going to see more defectors as economic changes come.

Netflix and Tivo is all anyone really needs. All that is required for more defectors... access to Hulu from your Tivo.



TyroneShoes said:


> I only do that in the grocery store. I am not comparing anything to anything, but you can if you feel the need. I am not that up to speed on the new Tivo HD; my point of reference is the HR10-250, so I would have to ask _you _how the Tivo HD compares to that first, I guess.
> 
> Does your new Tivo overlap recordings? Or does it still punch a 20-second hole between back-to-back programs? In most cases, The HR2x will automatically overlap (without resorting to padding) up to 4 simultaneous (two about to end, two about to begin) recordings. You get a little extra on each end instead of a truncated cliffhanger or "joining in progress" every time. I'm not sure the Tivo engineers ever realized that adjacent recordings could actually overlap on the same tuner, a feature that could have been in every Dtivo if they simply _had _realized it.
> 
> Does Tivo go to a "live" mode on channel change? Or is there still the delay? The HR2x is live until you invoke trick play.
> 
> The HR2x has both 30SKIP and 30SLIP functions available. Which of those does the Tivo have? I'm guessing its probably limited to 30SKIP.
> 
> Does it still have X1/5th slo-mo? Or has it been upgraded to the smoother more practical X1/3rd slo-mo speed that the HR2x has?
> 
> Does Tivo have the option for external HDDs? Or is it just a bit more complicated than simply plugging in an off-the-shelf eSATA? Can you just drop a bare drive into the box replacing the original one and expect it to automagically be a full-blown Tivo again directly after boot up? Or do you have to fuss with an image? Or do you still have to marry the old drive to the new, halving the reliability, and meaning that if either fails, both drives are screwed?
> 
> Can you get 215 hours of recording on a 1 TB drive? Or is it more like only 160 hours? I've got two upgraded HR20's and two upgraded HR10's for about 750 hours of HD storage, more than I will ever need. But the Tivos only account for about 166 of those 750 hours between them.
> 
> If you want to add CableCards, just how much does cable charge for that truck roll? I'm hearing about $50 a pop if you're lucky for many large MSOs. When that breaks, does cable point the finger at Tivo, who is pointing the finger back at cable? Sounds costly and frustrating to me, but I can only imagine, as the HR2x is a self-contained system, as was the HR10-250.
> 
> How many of those 130+ HD channels that DTV has does cable have? According to the websites, not that many, apparently.
> 
> Does your program supplier have an 8-split for NFL games? College games? I guess you don't need a split if you aren't getting that many simultaneous games, do you? How about multi-split tennis or golf tournaments? _Any _interactive sports stuff? How many different cars can you listen in to during NASCAR races?
> 
> Can you turn on/off CC in three button presses? or is it still more like twenty?
> 
> Can you quickpick any of 9 favorite channels in two button presses?
> 
> Does Tivo have the lower-third quick menu over full-screen live video? How about a PIG?
> 
> Can you select the channel in the EPG grid and press "info" and get everything for the next 12-14 days on that channel listed chronologically, automatically? Or are you limited to that old-style Tivo guide in the first place?
> 
> Does Tivo really respond to TC forum suggestions? Does Tivo have a "Cutting Edge"-style program? Whether they do or not, has the software evolved significantly in the last 3 years, or has it pretty much remained the same since v3.1 except for that embarrasing foray into v6.x that lowered reliability and caused numerous problems which essentially made that upgrade a disaster?
> 
> BTW, what do you have to pay for that thing? I got both my HR20's for the cost of shipping alone, and no contract extension. Plus a free dish and install. My last HR10-250 was free as well, and also did not extend my contract (which has been over for two years).
> 
> I think I might just be getting started. DirecTV has acquired the Replay technology, which hasn't even begun to show its influence yet. DISH has Slingbox on board. Both are gobbling up technology at a record pace. What's cable doing? All Tivo has is...Tivo. Cash-strapped and living from check to check in the worst economy in 80 years. All I really know is that I would be nervous with a company whose main strategy for keeping afloat is simply to sue the pants off of everyone else.
> 
> BTW, how long are those buffers on Tivo?


----------



## innocentfreak

TyroneShoes said:


> Does your new Tivo overlap recordings? Or does it still punch a 20-second hole between back-to-back programs? In most cases, The HR2x will automatically overlap (without resorting to padding) up to 4 simultaneous (two about to end, two about to begin) recordings. You get a little extra on each end instead of a truncated cliffhanger or "joining in progress" every time. I'm not sure the Tivo engineers ever realized that adjacent recordings could actually overlap on the same tuner, a feature that could have been in every Dtivo if they simply _had _realized it.


I guess the Tivo HD does. I know at pretty much all times my shows aren't cut off any at the beginning or end and I am almost always running 2 tuners at the same time. Then again this was the case on my Directivos. I never tried the H10-250.



TyroneShoes said:


> Does Tivo go to a "live" mode on channel change? Or is there still the delay? The HR2x is live until you invoke trick play.


No idea. I haven't watched live TV since I got my Tivos just over 9 years ago. I have around 6GBs of shows currently if you include what I have on my server I can watch not to mention my dvd collection.



TyroneShoes said:


> The HR2x has both 30SKIP and 30SKIP functions available. Which of those does the Tivo have? I'm guessing its probably limited to 30SKIP.
> 
> Does it still have X1/5th slo-mo? Or has it been upgraded to the smoother more practical X1/3rd slo-mo speed that the HR2x has?


Not sure what you mean here since you repeated 30SKIP and 30SKIP. Personally I have never used 30 second skip. I actually like scanning the commercials because I do occasionally see things like trailers I am interested in or commercials for TV specials I wouldn't have known about otherwise. I rarely use slo-mo so I couldn't tell you.



TyroneShoes said:


> Does Tivo have the option for external HDDs? Or is it just a bit more complicated than simply plugging in an off-the-shelf eSATA? Can you just drop a bare drive into the box replacing the original one and expect it to automagically be a full-blown Tivo again directly after boot up? Or do you have to fuss with an image? Or can you marry the old drive to the new, halving the reliability, and meaning that if either fails, both drives are screwed?


Yes they will accept a WD DVR specific model external drive. I believe there are ways to add other ones but I haven't tried it since everything dumps to my PC or server. No real fussing with images it is simply a matter of popping both drives in a PC and copying it for internal upgrades. It takes about 20 minutes at most for an empty drive more obviously if you want to transfer recordings also.



TyroneShoes said:


> If you want to add CableCards, just how much does cable charge for that truck roll? I'm hearing about $50 a pop if you're lucky for many large MSOs. When that breaks, does cable point the finger at Tivo, who is pointing the finger back at cable? Sounds costly and frustrating to me, but I can only imagine, as the HR2x is a self-contained system, as was the HR10-250.


Verizon doesn't charge anything for Cablecard installs. They dropped the fee back in April. I haven't had one break so I wouldn't know.

I do know with my Mom Directv charged her a fee to come out to tell her they need to replace her Directivo which wasn't the truth. It turns out the original DTV installer installed her multiswitch outside with no weather protection so the connections were now covered in rust resulting in one room no longer getting a signal. They made her pay for the repair job to fix the original DTV install. If I hadn't told the installer over the phone to replace the multiswitch first it would have been costly and frustrating to her to have to downgrade from a Directivo on top of the cost to fix the original install.



TyroneShoes said:


> Can you get 215 hours of recording on a 1 TB drive? Or is it more like only 160 hours?


I get around 157 according to the estimate which sounds about right since my average one hour recording is 9gb and half hour shows are around 5gb.



TyroneShoes said:


> How many of those 130+ HD channels that DTV has does cable have? According to the websites, not that many, apparently.


Fios has 14 HBO HD channels versus DTV's 2. 8 Showtimes to DTV's 1. Just to name a few. Here are my Fios HD channels. According to the site they have 126 in my area. I don't see a single DTV HD channel that I would watch that I don't get especially when 14 of the HD channels are FSN.



TyroneShoes said:


> Does your program supplier have an 8-split for NFL games? College games? I guess you don't need a split if you aren't getting that many simultaneous games, do you? How about multi-split tennis or golf tournaments? _Any _interactive sports stuff? How many different cars can you listen in to during NASCAR races?


I don't watch sports so I don't know.



TyroneShoes said:


> Can you turn on/off CC in three button presses? or is it still more like twenty?


I have never used CC either with or without Tivo so no idea.



TyroneShoes said:


> Can you quickpick any of 9 favorite channels in two button presses?


I don't watch live tv since I have Tivo so if it could I wouldn't know.



TyroneShoes said:


> Does Tivo have the lower-third quick menu over full-screen live video? How about a PIG?


No which I am extremely happy about. If I am in a guide I don't want to be watching TV or have it playing since it would be playing what I am currently recording to watch later.



TyroneShoes said:


> Can you select the channel in the EPG grid and press "info" and get everything for the next 12-14 days on that channel listed chronologically, automatically? Or are you limited to that old-style Tivo guide in the first place?


No idea. I do search by title for everything I want to record.



TyroneShoes said:


> Does Tivo really respond to TC forum suggestions? Does Tivo have a "Cutting Edge"-style program? Whether they do or not, has the software evolved significantly in the last 3 years, or has it pretty much remained the same since v3.1 except for that embarrasing foray into v6.x that lowered reliability and caused numerous problems which essentially made that upgrade a disaster?


They have a beta program but it has an NDA. I haven't seen anything in the Cutting Edge yet that has made me go I wish I had that feature. Personally I am waiting for hardware revisions that let me record more than 2 shows at once.



TyroneShoes said:


> BTW, what do you have to pay for that thing? I got both my HR20's for the cost of shipping alone, and no contract extension. Plus a free dish and install. My last HR10-250 was free as well, and also did not extend my contract (which has been over for two years).


For 3 Tivo HDs with livetime I paid $1050, not your normal price but it is what I paid. By switching to Fios I saved $100 a month and gained HD channels. My DTV bill was $155 a month. My Fios bill with phone, internet and cable is $164 a month. I have a one year contract with 2 year price guarantee.

Is the HR2x still limited to 50 shows unless you figure out the formula to trick the DVR into recording additional shows?

Does DTV charge you extra to access the HD version of a channel you already get?

Does DTV charge you a lease fee for new hardware and shipping on top of a monthly fee to use the hardware?

Does DTV extend your contract with new hardware? I can add or return hardware at anytime with no change to my contract.

Does DTV offer a price guarantee with their contract?

Does DTV offer channels without another box to any device that can tune QAM?


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## Matt L

Well there is one feature the new H2x software has that I've wished for over and over on my old TiVos ---- the ability to RECORD the buffer. Makes that 90 minute buffer even more valuable.


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## samo

innocentfreak said:


> No idea. I haven't watched live TV since I got my Tivos just over 9 years ago. .... I don't watch sports so I don't know...
> I have never used CC either with or without Tivo so no idea.





magnus said:


> Netflix and Tivo is all anyone really needs.


Talking about generalization! Believe it or not guys, but there are people who like sports, who watch news as they happen, there are people who are hearing impaired and believe it or not there are some people who watch something on TV besides soap operas and reality shows.
You may find it hard to believe, but there are TV viewers in this country (about 80% or more) that can afford to pay for the variety of programming and they happy to do that. There are people who watch history and discovery channels instead of the season pass for the Bachelor.
To say that new advanced features of HR2X DVRs are useless because you don't need them is a same as saying that there is no use for automobile because you are Amish.
I understand that you are happy with your TiVos, and more power to you if you are. Just admit that there must be a reason why TiVo is ONLY DVR maker that loses subscribers.


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## magnus

What is so advanced about extra FF options and 90 minute buffer?

I only mentioned content because the topic of features had been deviated from. Sure, you can say all day long that Directv has more content but in reality that's not gonna save them. There are going to be more and more people that will realize that content is not king and that they can get much of what they watch already on Tivo, Netflix, and Hulu. Times are changing and the premium service providers like Directv should start taking notice.

News as it happens. Do I really need to hear (right now) about some bastard that just killed his entire family or that we've just bailed out another company? I think I can wait for the news at the regular time or catch up on CNN.com.

I do not watch any reality TV and I hate soaps. There is more than enough sports for me in my local market. I live in DFW for Christ sakes.

Tivo loses subscribers because they don't have their own content outlets and because everyone subscribes to the notion that their TV must have something on it (live) whether they want to watch it or not.

I can afford to pay more for TV but I choose not to. It makes zero sense to me to pay all that money for stuff that I really do not watch.



samo said:


> Talking about generalization! Believe it or not guys, but there are people who like sports, who watch news as they happen, there are people who are hearing impaired and believe it or not there are some people who watch something on TV besides soap operas and reality shows.
> You may find it hard to believe, but there are TV viewers in this country (about 80% or more) that can afford to pay for the variety of programming and they happy to do that. There are people who watch history and discovery channels instead of the season pass for the Bachelor.
> To say that new advanced features of HR2X DVRs are useless because you don't need them is a same as saying that there is no use for automobile because you are Amish.
> I understand that you are happy with your TiVos, and more power to you if you are. Just admit that there must be a reason why TiVo is ONLY DVR maker that loses subscribers.


----------



## innocentfreak

samo said:


> Talking about generalization! Believe it or not guys, but there are people who like sports, who watch news as they happen, there are people who are hearing impaired and believe it or not there are some people who watch something on TV besides soap operas and reality shows.


Wow I never would have guessed. I always figured my father and brother were lying to me when they said they like watching football.



samo said:


> You may find it hard to believe, but there are TV viewers in this country (about 80% or more) that can afford to pay for the variety of programming and they happy to do that. There are people who watch history and discovery channels instead of the season pass for the Bachelor.


I am one of those people. I get every channel I had on DTV plus HD programming for less. I could afford to pay the DTV prices but I don't see why when what I get is better for less.

While I do record a lot of primetime shows, I have a ton of season passes for the History channel, TLC, The Discovery Channel, Nat Geo, and APL, just to name a few. Luckily with Tivo I can have more than 50 shows so I don't have to be picky about what shows I record which probably explains why I run around 300 season passes.



samo said:


> To say that new advanced features of HR2X DVRs are useless because you don't need them is a same as saying that there is no use for automobile because you are Amish.


I never said they were useless to people. I just don't consider them advanced and to me these so called advanced features won't serve a purpose in my home. If you do consider them advanced, then you also must consider Tivo's ability to record more advanced than the HR2X since it can handle more shows than 50.

If someone has no use for a feature than to them it is useless and doesn't add anything when comparing products. It would be like comparing laptops and saying one is better because it is also available in pink. I am not buying pink so why do I care.



samo said:


> I understand that you are happy with your TiVos, and more power to you if you are. Just admit that there must be a reason why TiVo is ONLY DVR maker that loses subscribers.


It is a completely different market so you can't really compare the two. If none of the cable companies or satellite companies offered DVRs and you had to buy your own, then you might have a point if Tivo still continued to lose money.

I am not 100% happy with Tivo but that is more on a hardware end. Lucky for me MS dropped their OEM cable card requirement on Windows 7 so I will have other options that DTV can't offer either since they scrapped their tuners.


----------



## HiDefGator

when you tell Tivo to record a football game does it popup a box asking if you would like to extend the recording time by 30 minutes in case this live event runs long? My HR20 did that to me today. simple but a really nice touch.


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## magnus

I set my Tivo to record UT and Tech. Tivo gave option of 1 hour though and I chose the option to be sure.



HiDefGator said:


> when you tell Tivo to record a football game does it popup a box asking if you would like to extend the recording time by 30 minutes in case this live event runs long? My HR20 did that to me today. simple but a really nice touch.


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## innocentfreak

HiDefGator said:


> when you tell Tivo to record a football game does it popup a box asking if you would like to extend the recording time by 30 minutes in case this live event runs long? My HR20 did that to me today. simple but a really nice touch.


Yeah it works on any live event. You can also disable the popup option if you want.


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## samo

innocentfreak said:


> If someone has no use for a feature than to them it is useless and doesn't add anything when comparing products. It would be like comparing laptops and saying one is better because it is also available in pink. I am not buying pink so why do I care.


Absolutely. I couldn't say it better myself. For example, I never used MRV on TiVo or any other DVR, I never connected my DVRs to Internet or my PCs, and Netflix or DirecTV on demand are useless to me.
That doesn't mean that these features are useless to everybody. Somebody does buy pink laptops. In general, if majority of people perceive a value in what they buy - products sells. If people don't see a value - product does not sell well and loses existing customers.


> I am one of those people. I get every channel I had on DTV plus HD programming for less. I could afford to pay the DTV prices but I don't see why when what I get is better for less.


Again, this is an excellent solution for you because you can get the same content for less. For me, I have to subscribe to both DirecTV and Dish because all of the content I need is not available on either provider nor cable or FIOS.
Thanks God that we live in America and have choices.


----------



## magnus

Directv and Dish? Can one person possibly watch that much TV?



samo said:


> Again, this is an excellent solution for you because you can get the same content for less. For me, I have to subscribe to both DirecTV and Dish because all of the content I need is not available on either provider nor cable or FIOS.
> Thanks God that we live in America and have choices.


----------



## samo

magnus said:


> Directv and Dish? Can one person possibly watch that much TV?


It is not how much you watch - it is what you watch. In my case one of the channels I used to get on Dish moved to DirecTV, so I moved to DirecTV and getting channels that I can not get on DirecTV ala carte from Dish. If I had to get TV OTA I would be watching TV once a month if that often. If I had to watch news on local channels, I agree with you - I can wait 3 days to see them. I don't have much time to watch TV so when I watch I want to see specific programming on specific channels. I like to get spin on news from all directions including Fox, BBC and Russian channels. You'd be amazed how different story sounds if you don't hear it from major networks only.


----------



## TyroneShoes

magnus said:


> Your point of reference is against older technology the HR10-250 and against restrictions that Directv had against Tivo...


Thanks for that, but that is exactly what I told you, and why I asked the questions about whether the Tivo HD had comparable features to what the HR2x has rather than exclaiming that it doesn't. Again, I did not know. Until you answered, that is. It was never me saying "mine's bigger than yours". I'm not entering into your dick-measuring contest, just answering your question as best as I can. I have no dog in this fight and am not claiming superiority just because I apparently chose a superior DVR platform. I actually _want _all DVRs to have all the best features, and that the Tivo HD just doesn't only makes me sad.

What was asked for was features that it had that the Tivo HD doesn't have, and so the only way for me to get to the bottom of that was to pose the question back to you, as in -- "well, the HR2x has this. How about the Tivo HD?". From your answers, the HR2x platform apparently has a great number of features including those that I listed, that the Tivo HD just simply does not have.

Your answers seemed to be more about smokescreening about what you think is important rather than getting to the bottom of your question about what does it have that the Tivo HD does not have. The lack of response about whether the Tivo HD even has these features speaks volumes by your silence on the actual issue at hand.



magnus said:


> What is so advanced about extra FF options and 90 minute buffer?


Can you really ask that question with a straight face? For anyone who ever uses the buffer, which is probably about 98% of users, its quite obvious. If you do the math, apparently a 90-minute buffer is exactly three times better than a 30-minute buffer. How about that--we can actually quantize exactly how advanced it is! But I forget--was the question about whether these features are important to one person (you) or was the question "what features does it have that the Tivo HD does not have?" Now I remember--it was the last one.

For instance, possibly you were not among the chorus constantly moaning about a piddly 30-minute buffer. If you were, you still would have been drowned out by the throngs who were whining about it non-stop. Same for all the other Tivo shortcomings. Whether the features that the HR2x has that the Tivo HD does not have are important to you or not is absolutely not the issue. They are important to many who actually have the HR2x platform, however, and they are still then significant features that the Tivo HD does not apparently have.

And THAT, is the question that was asked, and now answered. Trying to make those issues seem trivial because you can mount some weak argument that you don't care about them does not diminish in any way the fact that those features exist and are significant to typical users. But silence that weak argument and all we hear in response to the list of features asked for is crickets, and the wind whistling through the trees.


----------



## TyroneShoes

innocentfreak said:


> I...Not sure what you mean here since you repeated 30SKIP and 30SKIP. Personally I have never used 30 second skip. I actually like scanning the commercials because I do occasionally see things like trailers I am interested in or commercials for TV specials I wouldn't have known about otherwise...


That was a typo which was corrected within 5 minutes, so you were unfortunately in that window. It sounds like 30SLIP, a feature apparently proprietary to the HR2x, would be exactly what the doctor ordered for your particular DVR-ing habits.



innocentfreak said:


> Yes they will accept a WD DVR specific model external drive. I believe there are ways to add other ones but I haven't tried it since everything dumps to my PC or server. No real fussing with images it is simply a matter of popping both drives in a PC and copying it for internal upgrades. It takes about 20 minutes at most for an empty drive more obviously if you want to transfer recordings also...


So the answer to my question about whether you can drop a bare drive in without fussing around with images or copying software to it via a PC (which is the functional equivalent of fussing around with images) is apparently "No".



innocentfreak said:


> Fios has 14 HBO HD channels versus DTV's 2. 8 Showtimes to DTV's 1. Just to name a few...


 I don't want to insult you by saying that FIOS isn't relevant to a discussion about what features the Tivo HD might or might not have (but really, it isn't), because FIOS also isn't available to only a few million subs (cable and DBS have about 70-80% US penetration, while OTA has about 18%--how much does FIOS have again?), but whether relevant or not, you are incorrect.

HBO, Showtime, and Starz on DTV each have at least 5 HD channels apiece (not to mention a couple dozen SD channels), and have for some time--not something you are ever going to find on ComCast or Cox. I also sincerely doubt that there are any programs that you can find on 8 or 14 Showtime or HBO channels that I can't find on the 5 of each that I have. Regardless, even though none of that is relevant to the discussion at hand, if you are going to "name a few", you should probably check your facts if you want to establish any semblance of credibility.


----------



## Enrique

innocentfreak said:


> -


Every time I see your username I imagine a DirecTV CEO talking and you getting up and saying "You lie".

God, We get that you think the DirecTVs DVRs are sub-par(And it seems you think DirecTV even is..), No need to keep repeating yourself.

I find it very funny that you no longer have DirecTV, yet keep coming back to this thread talking about a service you don't have.


----------



## shibby191

innocentfreak said:


> Fios has 14 HBO HD channels versus DTV's 2. 8 Showtimes to DTV's 1. Just to name a few.


You are correct that DirecTV has 2 HBO's in HD.
But they have 5 Showtimes in HD and 5 Starz in HD (more then FIOS) and have for at least a year, maybe two now.


----------



## fasTLane

shibby191 said:


> You are correct that DirecTV has 2 HBO's in HD.
> But they have 5 Showtimes in HD and 5 Starz in HD (more then FIOS) and have for at least a year, maybe two now.


WOW.

_DirecTivo_ 2.... *Come on down!*


----------



## sjberra

innocentfreak said:


> I never said they were useless to people. I just don't consider them advanced and to me these so called advanced features won't serve a purpose in my home. If you do consider them advanced, then you also must consider Tivo's ability to record more advanced than the HR2X since it can handle more shows than 50.
> 
> If someone has no use for a feature than to them it is useless and doesn't add anything when comparing products. It would be like comparing laptops and saying one is better because it is also available in pink. I am not buying pink so why do I care.


Curious - if the simple fact that you don;t consider features advanced unless you use them as your comment states - and you are just utilizing basic recording functionality - would not a svhs recorder work just as well? No advanced features that you consider usless, simple sytraight forward tech to record a show for later watching


----------



## 20TIL6

Enrique said:


> I find it very funny that you no longer have DirecTV, yet keep coming back to this thread talking about a service you don't have.


I find it equally funny when folks that no longer have a DirecTV/TiVo, or clearly have no desire for the new model due and love the HR2X, or are even counting the days when they can discharge a firearm into their old HR10-250, all continue come back and post on a message board called "tivocommunity".

I have TiVo, I had DirecTV, and I'd like the option of having both again. Those are my reasons. I don't think I've spent 10 minutes on dbstalk. ...wait, I think I've figured it out.


----------



## sjberra

20TIL6 said:


> I find it equally funny when folks that no longer have a DirecTV/TiVo, or clearly have no desire for the new model due and love the HR2X, or are even counting the days when they can discharge a firearm into their old HR10-250, all continue come back and post on a message board called "tivocommunity".
> 
> I have TiVo, I had DirecTV, and I'd like the option of having both again. Those are my reasons. I don't think I've spent 10 minutes on dbstalk. ...wait, I think I've figured it out.


Guess I am the one you are referenceing ( i did introduce my other two HR10's to Mr Smith and Miss Wesson and it was very satisfying), bad assumption though - still have a out dated HR10-250 hooked to my account, albet it is in the garage on a 16 inch low def CRT television, but it is active on the subscription and still in use to supply noise while I am working on restoring a Norton Commando.

basicly Wrong in one in this case neighbor - your turn


----------



## innocentfreak

TyroneShoes said:


> HBO, Showtime, and Starz on DTV each have at least 5 HD channels apiece (not to mention a couple dozen SD channels), and have for some time--not something you are ever going to find on ComCast or Cox. I also sincerely doubt that there are any programs that you can find on 8 or 14 Showtime or HBO channels that I can't find on the 5 of each that I have. Regardless, even though none of that is relevant to the discussion at hand, if you are going to "name a few", you should probably check your facts if you want to establish any semblance of credibility.


I was comparing my lineup on Fios to what DTV lists as my lineup on their site as I posted that so if DTV hasn't updated their lineup online it is difficult to check my facts. According to the DTV site they only offer HBO East and West in HD and Showtime Showcase E and W in HD. I did miss Showtime Extreme HD since they have it under Extreme HD but on packages it has the small Showtime logo. I know one of the big channels I always missed on DTV was HBO comedy which DTV doesn't even carry in SD.



Enrique said:


> Every time I see your username I imagine a DirecTV CEO talking and you getting up and saying "You lie".
> 
> God, We get that you think the DirecTVs DVRs are sub-par(And it seems you think DirecTV even is..), No need to keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I find it very funny that you no longer have DirecTV, yet keep coming back to this thread talking about a service you don't have.


I asked years ago for them to change my user name but they wouldn't.

Actually my DTV account is frozen currently because I still wanted to give them a chance and see what the DTivo looks like since my account becomes active again 2/1/10. I did have DTV for about 6 years if not more without any real problems. Now it is true the longer I am with Fios the more I like it and the less likely I will return especially with new announcements like the cable card options for Windows 7. I just don't agree with some of DTV's business practices which only changed recently since they went to a lease option.

The problem is I don't think I have ever called their DVR subpar or trashed anyone for using it. If I have come across that way, it wasn't my intention. I think the only thing I have ever said is that to me it is somewhat a joke to limit it to 50 shows. I realize that is fine for some people but when the primary job is recording shows and that has a set limit beyond what the hard drive can hold, I just don't see the benefit. Some argue that it is speed related. While this may be some of the case, my Tivo HD and my Series 2 Directivo were never slow with more than 50 season passes. It does strike me more as a business decision since if you want more shows you need another DVR and guess who has the only option.

One thing that has always seemed more true to me is that Tivo was designed more as a device to record everything and the primary use was to watch recorded shows while the DTV DVR was more designed for live viewing and the occasional recorded show. This again may not be the case for everyone but that is how it has looked to me especially based off things like longer buffers.



shibby191 said:


> You are correct that DirecTV has 2 HBO's in HD.
> But they have 5 Showtimes in HD and 5 Starz in HD (more then FIOS) and have for at least a year, maybe two now.





shibby191 said:


> You are correct that DirecTV has 2 HBO's in HD.
> But they have 5 Showtimes in HD and 5 Starz in HD (more then FIOS) and have for at least a year, maybe two now.


According to DTV's site here, they have 4 Starz channels which are the same ones Fios carries, Starz E, Starz W, Starz Comedy, and Starz Kids. Also they show only 3 showtimes, E, W, and Extreme while Fios has Showtime 2 E and W, Showtime Extreme E and W, Showtime HDTV E and W, and Showtime Showcase E and W. Again if DTV's site is wrong I can't help that when doing my comparison.



sjberra said:


> Curious - if the simple fact that you don;t consider features advanced unless you use them as your comment states - and you are just utilizing basic recording functionality - would not a svhs recorder work just as well? No advanced features that you consider usless, simple sytraight forward tech to record a show for later watching


Well unless the SVHS can record 2 shows at once and play another one back at the same time which last I checked it couldn't that alone would rule it out. I never said I am only using basic recording functionality. I just don't use the live tv features since I don't watch live tv.

Now if SVHS could record more than 2 shows at once while playing back another I wouldn't rule it out till I tried it depending on the cost. I am all about recording as many shows as I want, when I want,and in one location and whoever offers me the best way to do that will get my money. Currently I am leaning towards Microsoft and companies like Ceton with their 4 tuner cable card setup.


----------



## Enrique

20TIL6 said:


> I find it equally funny when folks that no longer have a DirecTV/TiVo, or clearly have no desire for the new model due and love the HR2X, or are even counting the days when they can discharge a firearm into their old HR10-250, all continue come back and post on a message board called "tivocommunity".


I can't speak for other "folks" but myself... I do have Cable and DirecTV(DVRs that I have are the Moxi,Tivo(HD Tivo) and the HR23-700). Now as for why "folks" keep coming back to a forum called tivocommunity"... There're other parts to this forum then just the Tivo part.. Ever read the Off Topic Areas (Non-TiVo) parts?

Here is a link just to help you out:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=32




20TIL6 said:


> I have TiVo, I had DirecTV, and I'd like the option of having both again. Those are my reasons. I don't think I've spent 10 minutes on dbstalk. ...wait, I think I've figured it out.


I too would like both options again. Care to explain the ".... wait" part about DBSTalk?


----------



## Enrique

innocentfreak said:


> I asked years ago for them to change my user name but they wouldn't.
> 
> Actually my DTV account is frozen currently because I still wanted to give them a chance and see what the DTivo looks like since my account becomes active again 2/1/10. I did have DTV for about 6 years if not more without any real problems. Now it is true the longer I am with Fios the more I like it and the less likely I will return especially with new announcements like the cable card options for Windows 7. I just don't agree with some of DTV's business practices which only changed recently since they went to a lease option.
> 
> The problem is I don't think I have ever called their DVR subpar or trashed anyone for using it. If I have come across that way, it wasn't my intention. I think the only thing I have ever said is that to me it is somewhat a joke to limit it to 50 shows. I realize that is fine for some people but when the primary job is recording shows and that has a set limit beyond what the hard drive can hold, I just don't see the benefit. Some argue that it is speed related. While this may be some of the case, my Tivo HD and my Series 2 Directivo were never slow with more than 50 season passes. It does strike me more as a business decision since if you want more shows you need another DVR and guess who has the only option.
> 
> One thing that has always seemed more true to me is that Tivo was designed more as a device to record everything and the primary use was to watch recorded shows while the DTV DVR was more designed for live viewing and the occasional recorded show. This again may not be the case for everyone but that is how it has looked to me especially based off things like longer buffers.


I agree with you on the 50 limit(I Haven't hit it yet and I use it just like you would a Tivo(I don't ever watch live TV). The thing is both(I'll even throw Moxi into the mix) DVRs are very good for what they do(Record TV and set SPs etc), There're some differences that I wish each had, but for me DirecTVs DVR is best(for now)* and I'm happy with it.

*As I can't shell out around $900 for 3 HD Tivos. So I can't wait to see what the new DTivo is like.


----------



## innocentfreak

Enrique said:


> *As I can't shell out around $900 for 3 HD Tivos. So I can't wait to see what the new DTivo is like.


This was ultimately why I jumped on the HD Tivos. I lucked out and found the clearance ones at Sears after tracking them down and at a price I couldn't pass up. Prior to that I was content to wait out the DTivo release. When I scored those and weighed the options, it just made sense to make the switch. I figured I would have to pay at minimum $100 a pop most likely more for the new Directivos plus the additional HD fees. On top of that with no news on features there was no way to know if the new Directivo would even offer all of the Tivo HD features.

In the first year based on the savings from switching to Fios from DTV+phone and internet which were already on Fios, I will already have covered the lifetime fees of all three units. The only thing I initially missed from the switch was having E/W feeds for local SD channels since I was grandfathered in under old waivers. Once I found out that I could record the local clearqam for pretty much free minus the $90 for 4 tuners that went away quickly.


----------



## magnus

You are so eloquent. 

I simply asked about the features that the HR20 had that were of significance and only one person responded back with anything that was advanced. The items that Tivo "passed" on were probably ones that they should have passed on because they really don't amount to much in my opinion.

The buffer item I could see as long as it's configurable. I don't want 180 minutes of my drive being dedicated to a buffer.

I'm not sure how you can claim any superiority based on the items that you listed though.



TyroneShoes said:


> Again, I did not know. Until you answered, that is. It was never me saying "mine's bigger than yours". I'm not entering into your dick-measuring contest, just answering your question as best as I can. I have no dog in this fight and am not claiming superiority just because I apparently chose a superior DVR platform. I actually _want _all DVRs to have all the best features, and that the Tivo HD just doesn't only makes me sad.


----------



## nrc

TyroneShoes said:


> For instance, possibly you were not among the chorus constantly moaning about a piddly 30-minute buffer. If you were, you still would have been drowned out by the throngs who were whining about it non-stop.


I suppose it doesn't take many people to form a chorus, but the notion that there have been throngs whining about 30 minute buffers non-stop is a figment of your imagination. Yes, some people want it. I think you've talked more about it here than I've seen TiVo users talk about it for the last year.

If TiVo gave me the option to increase the buffer size I wouldn't since I'd rather have the space for recordings and suggestions.


----------



## Matt L

magnus said:


> You are so eloquent.
> 
> The buffer item I could see as long as it's configurable. I don't want 180 minutes of my drive being dedicated to a buffer.


Good grief! Now I've heard everything. Whining about TOO much buffer! That answer is simple DON"T TURN IT ON! You have that option -- that's another thing TiVo won't let you do. Along with my new favorite thing recordable buffers something my Tivo never let me do either.


----------



## magnus

I want it configurable.... if it has to change. 30 minutes is well more than enough. You people who think that you need a 90 minute buffer have never hear of using season passes.... I would think.

I want the buffer but I just don't want 90 (180) minutes of it (agree with nrc on this point).



Matt L said:


> Good grief! Now I've heard everything. Whining about TOO much buffer! That answer is simple DON"T TURN IT ON! You have that option -- that's another thing TiVo won't let you do. Along with my new favorite thing recordable buffers something my Tivo never let me do either.


----------



## nrc

Matt L said:


> Along with my new favorite thing recordable buffers something my Tivo never let me do either.


For a long time pressing record on TiVo has started recording the current program including whatever portion of the that program is in the buffer. How is that different than your new favorite feature?


----------



## samo

nrc said:


> For a long time pressing record on TiVo has started recording the current program including whatever portion of the that program is in the buffer. How is that different than your new favorite feature?


Very different. You are watching buffer on TiVo and didn't notice that program you are watching is over. You got interrupted and pushed record to save the buffer and end of the program and <put your own profanity here> , your buffer is gone and TiVo happily records the next show from the beginning.
No other DVR is that stupid! Dish allows you to mark the place you want to start and will record from that place to the end of the buffer (default is to record whole buffer). DirecTV records whole buffer and properly labels portions that belong to different shows.


----------



## nrc

samo said:


> Very different. You are watching buffer on TiVo and didn't notice that program you are watching is over. You got interrupted and pushed record to save the buffer and end of the program and <put your own profanity here> , your buffer is gone and TiVo happily records the next show from the beginning.


It's not really true to say that TiVo doesn't record the buffer. It's fair to say that its logic for what portion of the buffer to record is not ideal.

I think I've encountered it once in 10 years of using TiVo. Obviously it's less of an issue with just 30 minutes of buffer, but I don't think it would ever make my favorite features list.


----------



## shibby191

innocentfreak said:


> According to DTV's site here, they have 4 Starz channels which are the same ones Fios carries, Starz E, Starz W, Starz Comedy, and Starz Kids. Also they show only 3 showtimes, E, W, and Extreme while Fios has Showtime 2 E and W, Showtime Extreme E and W, Showtime HDTV E and W, and Showtime Showcase E and W. Again if DTV's site is wrong I can't help that when doing my comparison.


Using your link I clearly see 5 Showtime's in HD.

Showtime East HD, Showtime 2 HD, Showtime 3 HD, Showtime West HD and Showtime Extreme HD (and actually there is a 6th, The Movie Channel HD which is part of the Showtime package).


----------



## innocentfreak

shibby191 said:


> Using your link I clearly see 5 Showtime's in HD.
> 
> Showtime East HD, Showtime 2 HD, Showtime 3 HD, Showtime West HD and Showtime Extreme HD (and actually there is a 6th, The Movie Channel HD which is part of the Showtime package).


I don't have the PDF in front of me but the one I printed out must not have had HD next to them or I would have listed them. Also if you want to include The Movie Channel, Fios has 4 of those which is also part of their Showtime and Movie Channel package. They also will have Epix soon but no idea which package they are putting it in though.


----------



## shibby191

innocentfreak said:


> I don't have the PDF in front of me but the one I printed out must not have had HD next to them or I would have listed them. Also if you want to include The Movie Channel, Fios has 4 of those which is also part of their Showtime and Movie Channel package. They also will have Epix soon but no idea which package they are putting it in though.


FYI I was just looking online on that page. You can scroll thru the channels. I didn't look at any PDF.

All I'll say about the movie channels is that they are all worthless to me anyway. I mean, how many times can you really see Wedding Crashers on HBO 14 or Showtime the Ocho?  I really don't need 25 HD movie channels that all repeat the same old tired movies over and over and over again. Really only need 1 or 2 each at most.

Netflix is a much better deal price wise. For my family anyway.


----------



## innocentfreak

shibby191 said:


> FYI I was just looking online on that page. You can scroll thru the channels. I didn't look at any PDF.
> 
> All I'll say about the movie channels is that they are all worthless to me anyway. I mean, how many times can you really see Wedding Crashers on HBO 14 or Showtime the Ocho?  I really don't need 25 HD movie channels that all repeat the same old tired movies over and over and over again. Really only need 1 or 2 each at most.
> 
> Netflix is a much better deal price wise. For my family anyway.


No worries. It definitely wasn't my intention to give incorrect info. I had printed both out so I could compare them side by side since it was easier to check them off as I compared them. The PDF may be out of date. I didn't bother using the web page and just assumed they would be the same.

I have Netflix also but I get delayed shipments because I return movies too quickly since I watch them the day I get them. Some days I even return them the same day since my mail comes early morning and they don't pick up from the local mailbox till midafternoon. I finally just downgraded to two discs out at a time since I was always waiting for the third disc anyway. I am now looking at dropping to one disc for the same reason. It keeps taking several days to get my movies.

I agree somewhat but I have found you do have better choices on the secondary channels than the regular HBO/Showtime.

EDIT: I just looked at my PDF and it turns out my printer only printed page 1 of 2. The rest of the Showtimes were on the top of page 2 so I missed them and it is my fault.


----------



## Spiky

Nice to see the reasons for why I seldom come here (or to DBSTalk) are still 100&#37; valid. Maybe you freaks should go watch all of these shows you've recorded on your various types of DVRs.

At least Tivo Community actually had the news I wanted about the next Tivo on D*. So, I guess I'll come back in another 5 years to see if you are all still measuring your 3rd leg.


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## Matt L

See you in 5 years when you check to see if the new D Tivo is coming out in the next year or so...


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## shibby191

Matt L said:


> See you in 5 years when you check to see if the new D Tivo is coming out in the next year or so...


LOL. That wouldn't actually surprise me.


----------



## fasTLane

Spiky said:


> Nice to see the reasons for why I seldom come here (or to DBSTalk) are still 100% valid. Maybe you freaks should go watch all of these shows you've recorded on your various types of DVRs.
> 
> At least Tivo Community actually had the news I wanted about the next Tivo on D*. So, I guess I'll come back in another 5 years to see if you are all still measuring your 3rd leg.


*LOL!*

Yessiree... This so called _Tivo forum _can be a real hoot....


----------



## durst

nrc said:


> It's not really true to say that TiVo doesn't record the buffer. It's fair to say that its logic for what portion of the buffer to record is not ideal.
> 
> I think I've encountered it once in 10 years of using TiVo. Obviously it's less of an issue with just 30 minutes of buffer, but I don't think it would ever make my favorite features list.


This is good proof that everyone watches their Tivo differently.

I too have had a Tivo for about 12 years now. I am always turning my TV on and start watching whatever is on and realize that I want to watch the whole show at a later time and hit record as its been on this channel for 30 min just to see it start recording the next program and completely dump what I wanted to watch.

Its not only frustrating that you don't get to watch the earlier part of the program, but you don't get to watch ANY of that program.

Of course, since I've been Tivo'ing for so long, you get in the habit of checking to see if this program in the buffer is already over because you know you will lose it, but nonetheless.....it sucks!

Anyways, if you have only done this once in the last 10 years, you must not watch live TV much...if ever. This only happens to me when I first turn on my TV, but it happens often. I am about to uprgrade to an HD and will love/hate the 90 minute buffer for these reasons.


----------



## nrc

durst said:


> Anyways, if you have only done this once in the last 10 years, you must not watch live TV much...if ever. This only happens to me when I first turn on my TV, but it happens often. I am about to uprgrade to an HD and will love/hate the 90 minute buffer for these reasons.


Yes, I rarely watch live TV. In fact, I usually hit the TiVo button to bring up Now Playing before my TV even comes on so I rarely even see whatever happens to be on at the moment. Now Playing, Suggestions, Live Guide is the order I check for things to watch and I rarely get to the guide. That'll happen when you have more than 50 season passes and auto-record wishlists. 

BTW, TiVo has only been available for 10 years and six months.


----------



## cramer

The question of who has the most HD cannot be answered by a channel list. It might *say* HD, and might be in an HD resolution on your TV, but an unacceptable amount of crap being broadcast is f'ing NOT HD. Taking 4:3 content and variable field stretching it into a 16:9 box is not what I'm paying for. It looks worse than a** and is simply seizure inducing. TNTHD has done this crap for eons -- 'tho surprisingly, they don't do that to commercials (anymore)... they get pillar boxed with logos (like ESPN2HD does with SD content.) If it's 4:3, for the love of all that's holy, broadcast it that way; let the receiver and TV deal with it.

Second thing to consider... how insanely over-compressed is the signal? Even Cartoon Network HD, which is more of the 4:3 stretched insanity -- the simplest sh*t in the world to compress, btw -- is compressed so heavily that it gets grainy and pixelated.


----------



## innocentfreak

cramer said:


> Second thing to consider... how insanely over-compressed is the signal? Even Cartoon Network HD, which is more of the 4:3 stretched insanity -- the simplest sh*t in the world to compress, btw -- is compressed so heavily that it gets grainy and pixelated.


This is one of the perks of Fios. They don't do any additional compression and the only compression done is from the signal providers themselves prior to Fios receiving the signal. This is why for OTA the recording size is the same as if you recorded it off Fios.

Regardless I just wish we had some real Tivo news to talk about lol.


----------



## DixonJDixon

innocentfreak said:


> Regardless I just wish we had some real Tivo news to talk about lol.


Aint that the truth!


----------



## llarch

For what it is worth, just got this from Tivo via email out of the blue, they asked me to update my profile which I setup two years ago (this is the first and only contact I've ever received from them);

"TiVo Supplemental Profile Survey

Please allow me to take this opportunity to express my heartfelt thanks for your willingness to be one of our highly valued Beta testers.

Please take a few moments to complete the Supplemental Profile Survey (under Survey in the left navigation) at https://fieldtrials.tivo.com at your earliest convenience. This will help us in selecting participants for upcoming Beta programs, so it is critical that you provide this information.

Thanks again for joining the TiVo Field Trials community. We look forward to working with you in the future.

Casey Nance
Sr. Manager, TiVo Field Trials/Beta Programs"

Could be routine, could be prep for an upcoming beta relating to this thread, have no idea.


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## innocentfreak

I think it might be more for the new Best Buy Tivo since some of the questions have to deal with another survey they sent out recently.


----------



## llarch

innocentfreak said:


> I think it might be more for the new Best Buy Tivo since some of the questions have to deal with another survey they sent out recently.


It actually didn't contain any questions, it was basically a prompt for me to update my existing field trials profile.


----------



## SullyND

Would DirecTV run the trials for a new DirecTiVo?


----------



## lrhorer

CuriousMark said:


> Last I heard it was a DTV box, not a TiVo Designed and built box. Where did you get that info?


Most TiVos have not been designed and built by TiVo. Indeed, until the advent of the S3, the vast majority of TiVo boxes were manufactured by Sony, Philips, Hughes, or Humax, nearly from day 1. I could be wrong, but I don't think TiVo ever manufactured a DTivo, did they? Certainly I never purchased one.


----------



## lrhorer

nrc said:


> I suppose it doesn't take many people to form a chorus, but the notion that there have been throngs whining about 30 minute buffers non-stop is a figment of your imagination. Yes, some people want it. I think you've talked more about it here than I've seen TiVo users talk about it for the last year.
> 
> If TiVo gave me the option to increase the buffer size I wouldn't since I'd rather have the space for recordings and suggestions.


Well, I'm certainly not hurting for space on my TiVos, but the buffer is as worthless to me as porcine male mamaries. I definitely vote either the ability turn off such nonsense or at least as small a buffer as possible.


----------



## magnus

Yeah, I have a friend that subscribes to the thought that a 90 minute buffer is needed. He used to have a Dish DVR. The only way I would want this to change would be a configuration option. I believe that TWP (via Hackman) has an option like that.

Yeah, it has 15 minute increments to 180 minutes.



lrhorer said:


> Well, I'm certainly not hurting for space on my TiVos, but the buffer is as worthless to me as porcine male mamaries. I definitely vote either the ability turn off such nonsense or at least as small a buffer as possible.


----------



## lrhorer

magnus said:


> I want it configurable.... if it has to change. 30 minutes is well more than enough. You people who think that you need a 90 minute buffer have never hear of using season passes.... I would think.
> 
> I want the buffer but I just don't want 90 (180) minutes of it (agree with nrc on this point).


Well, much like PCs, there are people who have TiVos, and people who actually make full use of them. Many TiVo owners treat their TiVos - indeed think of their TiVos - as VCRs with some added features. What many people fail to consider is that the TiVo offers a whole different paradigm for TV entertainment. It allows one to eliminate the dependency on station and network programmers and any exigency of time dependence from one's viewing. The value of time-shifting in general aside, if you ask me the very most important feature set of the Tivo consists of those utilities which eliminate the things I don't want from my consideration. Since turning on "Live TV" is virtually guaranteed to present me with that which I do not want, I'll happily stick to the NPL, which contains far, far more things I would like to watch than I would ever actually be able to watch. Why waste my time searching through mountains of mostly rotting hamburger, tripe, and wilted lettuce when for less time and trouble I can have fresh USDA Choice T-Bones, live Maine lobster, and truffles?


----------



## lrhorer

magnus said:


> Yeah, I have a friend that subscribes to the thought that a 90 minute buffer is needed. He used to have a Dish DVR. The only way I would want this to change would be a configuration option. I believe that TWP (via Hackman) has an option like that.


It does. There's also a 3rd party utility for on-screen caller ID. I would rather have someone scrape their fingernails down a chalkboard than have this "feature".


----------



## magnus

Same here. I don't see the need for such items but if they have to be there then let me configure to turn it off. And again, I certainly would not call these advanced as others seemed to suggest.



lrhorer said:


> It does. There's also a 3rd party utility for on-screen caller ID. I would rather have someone scrape their fingernails down a chalkboard than have this "feature".


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## innocentfreak

llarch said:


> It actually didn't contain any questions, it was basically a prompt for me to update my existing field trials profile.


There is a supplemental profile questionnaire in the options on the left of the screen. I don't remember all the new questions but several reminded me of things that were mentioned in the Best Buy announcement. These were new questions and weren't on the original profile.


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## magnus

Here is a list of things that I would like to see in the new box. 

1) 4 tuners - Directv won't buy off on that
2) DLNA/UPnP support - as a client and a server
3) Cooperative scheduling - especially if not implementing #1
4) Netflix - without the need for a PC
5) Hulu - without the need for a PC


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## ewilts

innocentfreak said:


> There is a supplemental profile questionnaire in the options on the left of the screen. I don't remember all the new questions but several reminded me of things that were mentioned in the Best Buy announcement. These were new questions and weren't on the original profile.


I got the email too, and I don't see a link to a supplemental profile questionnaire after I log in. The email I got is not replyable so I'm kinda SOL at the moment. I can update my personal account settings which is just contact and location info, or log out. Those are my only options.


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## innocentfreak

When you log in, on the left under Personal Profiles under Test Platforms I now had a supplemental questionnaire link. It may vary based on what platform you have under test platforms since I had added my Tivo HD about 3 months ago.


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## ewilts

innocentfreak said:


> When you log in, on the left under Personal Profiles under Test Platforms I now had a supplemental questionnaire link. It may vary based on what platform you have under test platforms since I had added my Tivo HD about 3 months ago.


The only thing I see listed under Personal Profiles is "Personal Account". It's the same for IE and Firefox. My Series 3 had been involved in beta programs before.


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## samo

magnus said:


> Here is a list of things that I would like to see in the new box.
> 
> 1) 4 tuners - Directv won't buy off on that
> 2) DLNA/UPnP support - as a client and a server
> 3) Cooperative scheduling - especially if not implementing #1
> 4) Netflix - without the need for a PC
> 5) Hulu - without the need for a PC


1. It would require development of the new hardware - certainly will not happen in 2010
2. Already on DirecTV units, will have to be implemented on TiVo or TiVo box will be no go.
3. and 4. Will never happen. First DirecTV has 4500 titles on "on-Demand" and there is very little need for extra, second it will compete with PPV and DirecTV will be nuts if they allow Netflix or Hulu on their box.


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## magnus

Not sure I would see much point in paying extra then.



samo said:


> 1. It would require development of the new hardware - certainly will not happen in 2010
> 2. Already on DirecTV units, will have to be implemented on TiVo or TiVo box will be no go.
> 3. and 4. Will never happen. First DirecTV has 4500 titles on "on-Demand" and there is very little need for extra, second it will compete with PPV and DirecTV will be nuts if they allow Netflix or Hulu on their box.


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## nrc

samo said:


> 3. and 4. Will never happen. First DirecTV has 4500 titles on "on-Demand" and there is very little need for extra, second it will compete with PPV and DirecTV will be nuts if they allow Netflix or Hulu on their box.


"Very little need for extra." Ha. Amazon has something like 45,000 titles. There appears to be a market for those other 40,000 titles. 

Just compared my Amazon order history to DTV's "on-Demand". Of the last 10 titles I've ordered only two are available and one of them isn't in HD. Yes, with such a limited offering it's in DirecTV's interest to lock out customer choice.

Also, Hulu is licensed by the studios as a PC delivery mechanism. Any direct-to-TV delivery is unlikely to be approved any time soon.


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## Matt L

lrhorer said:


> Well, much like PCs, there are people who have TiVos, and people who actually make full use of them. Many TiVo owners treat their TiVos - indeed think of their TiVos - as VCRs with some added features. What many people fail to consider is that the TiVo offers a whole different paradigm for TV entertainment. It allows one to eliminate the dependency on station and network programmers and any exigency of time dependence from one's viewing. The value of time-shifting in general aside, if you ask me the very most important feature set of the Tivo consists of those utilities which eliminate the things I don't want from my consideration. Since turning on "Live TV" is virtually guaranteed to present me with that which I do not want, I'll happily stick to the NPL, which contains far, far more things I would like to watch than I would ever actually be able to watch. Why waste my time searching through mountains of mostly rotting hamburger, tripe, and wilted lettuce when for less time and trouble I can have fresh USDA Choice T-Bones, live Maine lobster, and truffles?


That's you.

I record everything I normally watch, no question there. But there are times I just want to veg out and not pay serious attention to what I'm watching. I may flip through channels and find something interesting, or I'll flip to the other tuner and get drawn into something. If I decide I like it and want to see something the buffer is there. I'm certainly not going to whine about the little space the buffer uses, and truth be told I have seen no evidence that it takes any space away from recordings. TiVo always held a block of space for system use, and the buffer was part of that, and the HR2xs have content pushed to them, and the buffer is volatile so odds are it's not taking ANY space from recordings.

I've had TiVos for about 10 years now, so I know they are not fancy VCRs. And as to your food allusions, sometimes it's hard to beat a greasy burger and fries.


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## sjberra

SullyND said:


> Would DirecTV run the trials for a new DirecTiVo?


More then likely yes since the software load will only be available for Directv accounts and users


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## magnus

So, it's going to be a software load and not new hardware?



sjberra said:


> More then likely yes since the software load will only be available for Directv accounts and users


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## sjberra

magnus said:


> So, it's going to be a software load and not new hardware?


Reading the original release it appears that way, at least to me. Can;t see them stocking two different hardware boxes and having issues with PP and new installs, to much of a chance of the wrong box being sent or brought by the installed, that would be a bad idea. Alot easier to have one hardware platform, flag the account for Tivo or Directv base, plug it in and let it bootstrap into the correct softare load.

They are already going to have to have some way of differentiating between the two anyway since the original release indicated there was going to be an additional surcharge for the TIVO base and that the stock Directv base would be the standard unless requested.

Just not economicly smart to have 2 different hardware platforms where only the software will be different. Suspect that all the "toys" like Netflix, etc will not be available on the Directv TIVO version since it is direct competition for PPV and the ability to "modify" the base software will probably not be there either.

For al the years in my business, have become a believer in the KISS principal, and this just seems to fit to well. The need to keep less stock on hand is a plus


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## tgibbs

magnus said:


> I want it configurable.... if it has to change. 30 minutes is well more than enough. You people who think that you need a 90 minute buffer have never hear of using season passes.... I would think.
> 
> I want the buffer but I just don't want 90 (180) minutes of it (agree with nrc on this point).


I think any fixed-length limit is inadequate. I virtually never watch TV in real time, but I still want a full-show length buffer, because I do, once in a while, happen to turn on my TiVo and see a show in progress that I wish I'd thought to record, but it's already too far into it to get the beginning. Put in an option to limit the buffer if people are upset about it (although I can't see why anybody should be, since it's not going to use up any more disk space than is used making a scheduled recording, and the space is freed up once the show ends without being saved, or when or the tuner switches to record a scheduled show, anyway).


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## durst

nrc said:


> BTW, TiVo has only been available for 10 years and six months.


Well, whatever. It was around 1999 or 2000 when I started. Guess that's 9 or 10 years. Anyway, ever since it became available here.

I'm just pointing out that I use my Tivo to the maximum. Yea, my preference is watching recorded programs, however, there are many times I turn on the TV and see something interesting and immediately flip to the beginning of the buffer.

Having the other tuner to flip over to and check doubles your chance that something interesting is recording live. It doesn't always work out that I find something, I just like to check first before I jump on my Now Playing list.


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## cbessant

DirecTv is suppose to announce the launch of a 3D HD satellite during the upcoming CES. Is it possible that the delay with the new DirecTv HD TiVo unit could be due to 3D capabilities to be included?


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## litzdog911

cbessant said:


> DirecTv is suppose to announce the launch of a 3D HD satellite during the upcoming CES. Is it possible that the delay with the new DirecTv HD TiVo unit could be due to 3D capabilities to be included?


It's not a "3D satellite", but rather a "3D movie channel". There's more information about it in the Programming Forum at http://www.dbstalk.com. I doubt this has anything to do with the new HD Tivo.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=170318


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## stevel

The 3D capabilities would be in the TV, not the recorder.


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## wkearney99

tgibbs said:


> I think any fixed-length limit is inadequate. I virtually never watch TV in real time, but I still want a full-show length buffer, because I do, once in a while, happen to turn on my TiVo and see a show in progress that I wish I'd thought to record, but it's already too far into it to get the beginning. Put in an option to limit the buffer if people are upset about it (although I can't see why anybody should be, since it's not going to use up any more disk space than is used making a scheduled recording, and the space is freed up once the show ends without being saved, or when or the tuner switches to record a scheduled show, anyway).


Given how frequently programs are shown again it's easy to just pick another showing to record. That and as more online access develops it'll be even easier to just go grab another copy of it. A longer per-show buffer would be an interesting feature. But not one I'd argue strongly for or against.


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## fasTLane

*DirecTV HD TiVo announcement likely at CES*

http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17029/1/


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## sjberra

fasTLane said:


> *DirecTV HD TiVo announcement likely at CES*
> 
> http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17029/1/


as pointed out, directv has no presence at CES according to the CES website and those that have direct contact with them. Will be interesting to see a blue smoke and mirros device introduced by a blue smoke and mirrors presence at CES. Unless they have some direct link to corporate confidentail correspondence, it is all speculation


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## fasTLane

Story originated at HDGuru.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/92364


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## sjberra

fasTLane said:


> Story originated at HDGuru.
> 
> http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/92364


so, still has no basis in fact. I really doubt that Directv will allow a small company to show new hardware for them. Would be poor marketing on Directv's part.


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## beardad

sjberra said:


> so, still has no basis in fact. I really doubt that Directv will allow a small company to show new hardware for them. Would be poor marketing on Directv's part.


Poor Marketing? Perhaps if the technology is there and Directv was the first to have the cutting edge both would benefit. TiVo at one time was the only word used to describe a DVR. Many celebrities are making references to TiVo so perhaps the fact of using the term may actually save the company.


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## snickerrrrs

sjberra said:


> as pointed out, Directv has no presence at CES according to the CES website and those that have direct contact with them. Will be interesting to see a blue smoke and mirrors device introduced by a blue smoke and mirrors presence at CES. Unless they have some direct link to corporate confidential correspondence, it is all speculation


Once Directv releases a new Tivo based dvr they'll make a big deal about it, probably at a big trade show. They will be able to charge an extra $5 per HD dvr for the new software so they'll want people to know about it immediately. Plus with all the commercials from Time-Warner and Dish attacking Directv's service and prices they'll want any leg up they can get.


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## HiDefGator

snickerrrrs said:


> They will be able to charge an extra $5 per HD dvr for the new software so they'll want people to know about it immediately.


I think they are "hoping" they can charge an extra $5 for it. So far there is no proof anyone will pay the extra up charge.


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## cbessant

On March 31, 2010 the grave stone will read: "Rest in peace MPEG-3, and screw all the remaining TiVo HD customers, unless you are a hotel or college DORM consumer". 

Check-out Channel 99, and you'll see the rest of the 70-channel range that was used for MPEG-3 HD is going away; it has been suffering a slow death over the past 2 years as DirecTv chipped away at it. Still no word on when the new HD DirecTiVo will be released, and DirecTv could care less, unless you are a hotel or college dorm customer. 

Nice, real nice.


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## litzdog911

cbessant said:


> On March 31, 2010 the grave stone will read: "Rest in peace MPEG-3, and screw all the remaining TiVo HD customers, unless you are a hotel or college DORM consumer".
> 
> Check-out Channel 99, and you'll see the rest of the 70-channel range that was used for MPEG-3 HD is going away; it has been suffering a slow death over the past 2 years as DirecTv chipped away at it. Still no word on when the new HD DirecTiVo will be released, and DirecTv could care less, unless you are a hotel or college dorm customer.
> 
> Nice, real nice.


It's actually the MPEG2 HD channels going away. Being discussed here ....
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=444597


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## Wil

litzdog911 said:


> It's actually the MPEG2 HD channels going away.


Don't stop him; he's on a roll (said in the original spirit).


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