# Would you have purchased your first TiVo under current payment structor?



## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

I can honestly say that it would have scared me silly looking at the current payment structor. I probably would have said screw it and looked at current cable offerings instead.

I can't believe there is 3 monthly payment options depending on 1yr, 2 yr, and 3 yr commitments. No way in hell would I commit right now to a 3 year commitment on a S2 unit when HDTV is picking up such headway.

$200 penalties if you cancel your subscription early?!? 

Would you have purchased your first TiVo under curent day price structor?


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Hard to say. Probably, since the unit would be free and I'd want to try it for a while, and then I'd be hooked.


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## Tiggerdrh (Nov 26, 2006)

I don't think I'd have done it given the current pricing payment structure. I'm not into the whole techno stuff, I just want something to record my shows, so my thinking is what's the point in owning the box if you're paying more than your local cable company is charging for their DVR on a monthly fee?


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

I bought my first TiVo 6 years ago with Lifetime. If there were a competitor who still offered that option, I'd probably go with the competitor.


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## kido (Aug 17, 2006)

Tiggerdrh said:


> I don't think I'd have done it given the current pricing payment structure. I'm not into the whole techno stuff, I just want something to record my shows, so my thinking is what's the point in owning the box if you're paying more than your local cable company is charging for their DVR on a monthly fee?


cost(standard cable + tivo) < cost(digital cable + cable dvr)


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## TriBruin (Dec 10, 2003)

kido said:


> standard cable + tivo *>>>* digital cable + cable dvr


Fixed.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

BlackBetty said:


> No way in hell would I commit right now to a 3 year commitment on a S2 unit when HDTV is picking up such headway.
> 
> Would you have purchased your first TiVo under curent day price structor?


The poll question is about the past, your argument is about the present.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

There is no doubt in my mind that I would go with the cable company's rented DVR for $7.95 a month instead of TiVo at $19.95, $14.95 (?), or $12.95 a month, plus the price of the box, a long term commitment, and the risks of ownership. I would consider TiVo only long enough to roll my eyes at its price. Since I would never know what I was missing, I would be reasonably happy - even if cursing the generic DVR regularly.

I'm very happy with my TiVos, but if I hadn't been a TiVo customer from before the Time Warner DVR existed, I would never have been a TiVo customer.


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

I'm not sure. The lifetime option is the main reason I gave Tivo a shot. I was happy as could be with 2 S2s but when I heard Lifetime was going away I bought one more and lifetimed it.

All those lifetime subs will be transfered to S3s by this time next week.

I bought my first Tivo with a 1Yr gift subscription ($12.95/mo rate). I figured I could try it out and if it wasn't going to work out it'd be no harm/no foul. Of course it took me almost no time to roll the gift sub into a lifetime sub.

The much higher rate for 1yr probably would have scared me off unless I have a long enough free trial to get me hooked. The S3 only gives like 5 days before you have to get a sub on it. It would probably take longer than that to get the cable co out to do (and possible re-do) the cablecard install.


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## The Watcher (Nov 20, 2006)

The draw for me the first time around was the lifetime subscription (in fact, it still is) I liked the idea of prepaying upfront and never having to pay ever again. Well worth the risk. Though I love my Tivo, I don't think I could handle/justify paying $15 a month for it... esp thinking that I would be using it for 10 or 20 years ($1800 and $3600 respectively, yikes). I am happy with my lifetime tivos.

Stuart


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

RBlount said:


> Fixed.


I think he meant the price is less. Which is a valid argument when you consider all the people around here that are worried about paying a few extra bucks a month (on a product they spend at least two or three hours a day using).

We live in a bizarre, irrational society. People will dump a product, service, or store that has given them good service for years in order to save a nickel at Wal*Mart, while running their credit cards up to the limit and paying 22% interest on junk that doesn't last as long as their debt.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Is there wording on the 30-day trial option that prevents you from becoming a serial 30-day trial subscriber (inclusive of returning the physical unit to the store ever 30 days and buying another)?


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## Tiggerdrh (Nov 26, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> I think he meant the price is less. Which is a valid argument when you consider all the people around here that are worried about paying a few extra bucks a month (on a product they spend at least two or three hours a day using).
> 
> I've had the service less than a year and last time I checked $19.95 - 12.95 is more than a few dollars. That's a huge increase if you don't want to prepay plus there's the hefty cancellation fee. The lifetime option is what drew me to this product in the first place. I don't think I'd have gone with TiVo under these circumstances.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Its hard to say if I would have bought my first TiVo 5,4,3,2 years ago with this structure. It was $9.95/mo for my first TiVo. Not really knowing what TiVo could do, it would be very hard to commit 3 yrs - I prefer the lower ownership cost of 3yrs.

As for today, no way. I would not commit to a dying analog technology, even knowing what I know now about TiVo, for 3 years - I prefer the lower ownership cost of 3yrs. Nor would I commit long term to unkown functionality in the S3 at the price. 

Even with a significant TiVo installed base and related infrastructure, I am not tempted to make further purchases, which I previously had been.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Cable DVR price wouldn't be the issue for me. Cable DVR here is $20/month too, and not as good.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

If I didn't have a choice of satellite DVRs and if cable DVRs are as bad as people on this forum say, then I would buy $300 plan and consider TiVo a disposable electronic gadget that will last up to 3 years before I have to take it to the curb.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Tiggerdrh said:


> I've had the service less than a year and last time I checked $19.95 - 12.95 is more than a few dollars.


How much did you pay for the box? The 80STs were going for $69.95 AR last year. The last time I checked $19.95 - ($12.95 + $69.95/12) is less than a few dollars.

But really, if $7/month is that big of a deal to you, you should just dump TiVo and go with a cheaper option. In my world $7 doesn't buy me lunch at the roach coach that's parked across the street. But if it matters that much to you, then just find something cheaper. I can guarantee you that TiVo isn't going to lower their prices, and based on what the CFO said yesterday, come the new year, they'll be charging for the boxes again.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Tiggerdrh said:


> I've had the service less than a year and last time I checked $19.95 - 12.95 is more than a few dollars. That's a huge increase if you don't want to prepay plus there's the hefty cancellation fee. The lifetime option is what drew me to this product in the first place. I don't think I'd have gone with TiVo under these circumstances.


DNFTT


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## bmgoodman (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm fairly anti-"monthly-payments-forever", so had I never used a DVR, I probably wouldn't get one under the current structure. On the other hand, I paid $450 for the 30-hour Sony plus $200 for (an unpredictable) lifetime, so the $300 option for 3 years does seem so bad. I suppose I would have gotten one anyway. I'm still cheesed, though, that bring-your-own-box gets you nothing any more. Even AOL, crappy as it is and was, gave a discount if you had your own ISP.


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## CrispyCritter (Feb 28, 2001)

BlackBetty said:


> I can honestly say that it would have scared me silly looking at the current payment structor. I probably would have said screw it and looked at current cable offerings instead.
> 
> I can't believe there is 3 monthly payment options depending on 1yr, 2 yr, and 3 yr commitments. No way in hell would I commit right now to a 3 year commitment on a S2 unit when HDTV is picking up such headway.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. $299 for an 80 hour TiVo with 3 years of service included as opposed to my original $249 and $9.95 per month. What a deal!

The barrier to entry for the first TiVo is lower than it has been for most of TiVo's history (the cost of purchasing your 2nd TiVo is another matter.)


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## yunlin12 (Mar 15, 2003)

I've used cable DVR, at $10/month. Knowing the performance of that box, I'd happily go with a Tivo with a 3 year plan.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

samo said:


> If I didn't have a choice of satellite DVRs and if cable DVRs are as bad as people on this forum say, then I would buy $300 plan and consider TiVo a disposable electronic gadget that will last up to 3 years before I have to take it to the curb.


One of TiVo's problems is that the boxes last so very much longer than that. Hopefully they'll make it a little cheaper for people to re-up with used boxes, if only for the environment's sake.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

I would have never went the SA Tivo route at old or new prices. Instead, I went with DirecTV/DTivos (dual tuners, 100% record quality, hacked to add network features).

Since DirecTV charges $6/mo. DVR fee for however many DVRs you have I am paying the equivalent of $1.50/mo. DVR fee per box (I have 4 subscribed DTivos).


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

If I were more financially secure for the longer term, likely.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

I paid 250$ for a 40 hour single tuner and got a 50$ rebate and then add in 299 for lifetime so round that off to 500$

Now I can get a dual tuner 80 hour TiVo for 70$. then I choose 299 prepay for 36 months and still have 130 bucks to spread over 11 more months to more or less match the original 500$ and that is for twice the DVR.

Plus in the interm they added in TTG and my ability to easily get shows onto my cell phone to watch and now TiVoCast is picking up steam. Value added there as well.

so aside from wishing they still had the great deal of 299 lifetime I think it is still a better deal today and still to me worth every penny


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## Tiggerdrh (Nov 26, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> How much did you pay for the box? The 80STs were going for $69.95 AR last year. The last time I checked $19.95 - ($12.95 + $69.95/12) is less than a few dollars.
> 
> But really, if $7/month is that big of a deal to you, you should just dump TiVo and go with a cheaper option. In my world $7 doesn't buy me lunch at the roach coach that's parked across the street. But if it matters that much to you, then just find something cheaper. I can guarantee you that TiVo isn't going to lower their prices, and based on what the CFO said yesterday, come the new year, they'll be charging for the boxes again.


I honestly don't remember what I paid for it, I just know I got it because of the lifetime option and had every intention of upgrading to lifetime once I decided I liked it but since I'd already prepaid the year service, didn't feel the need to rush. Guess I made a mistake.

No, in the grand scheme of things $7 a month is not that big of a deal in my life. I spend more than that at Starbucks and Caribou on a regular basis.  It's the whole point that irritates me.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Having loved my 4 TiVo's since 1999, even knowing what I know now and how much I love TiVo, but for my lifetime sub, I would never purchase under today's subscription models. I hate non-capped perpetual payments for anything.

I would consider a fairly priced monthly service plan if no lifetime existed. But, as I said in another thread, I think TiVo has jumped the shark with th is pricing change. It's sad, really sad.

...Dale


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*TiVo*
was always a no-brainer. With $200.00 lifetime or $6.95 monthly it was possibly the easiest decision ever. The WAF (even with software version 1.2) being exceptionally high didn't hurt either. Even with increased fees the multi-sub discount made things tolerable. Today with the higher fees, no lifetime option and no multi-box discount I can be really sure that the TiVo bandwagon would leave without me if TiVo was starting in this crowded DVR field out there today.

I know that all electronics will someday become boat anchors or worse. I'm glad I bought the lifetime and never looked back. Since my series one will get kind of useless in Jan2009 with NTSC going off the air. I'm glad I have a grandfathered transfer available to me although I don't see TiVo hardware I really want right now. Since my bad day is still a way off and if TiVo survives to a build a Series4 there is always a chance.

Some days I wonder if TiVo made the right decision with letting us peek under thier skirt with some things revealed and discussed in the underground. Much of the product failures have been related to hard drives, as one would have expected. The low cost for larger drives and well documented tools available has two downsides fir TiVo. First, the units just don't die as expected due to hard drive failures. Second, the ability to add storage hours meant customers did not need more TiVo units. I know that 'Monday Morning Quarterbacking' is easy but so is reading the writing on the wall. The red ink makes it really easy to read...


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

What you get and what you pay is definitely a better deal than my first tivo. I paid 500 for a 14 hour tivo. 9.95 a month for service.

However, I don't know that it's a reasonable contrast, given the advance in technology and the reduction in price of electronics in 6 years...


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## pdhenry (Feb 28, 2005)

BlackBetty said:


> No way in hell would I commit right now to a 3 year commitment on a S2 unit when HDTV is picking up such headway.


The contract committment is transferrable to new hardware, I believe. But you might not get a rebate on the replacement unit.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

Gai-jin said:


> What you get and what you pay is definitely a better deal than my first tivo. I paid 500 for a 14 hour tivo. 9.95 a month for service.
> 
> However, I don't know that it's a reasonable contrast, given the advance in technology and the reduction in price of electronics in 6 years...


except that my comparison is for a DVR that in just 18 months or so I could get double the hardware for slightly less money.

Also I can still sell that lifetime on Ebay for 300$. To me the real loss was the lifetime as that was quite a deal especially on the first TiVo. The recent change that really for a confirmed user like me is more of a longer contract period than a price raise does not deter me


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## nvaughan3 (May 11, 2006)

I go the first tivo for $99 (40hrST). I got the second tivo, same 40hrST, free with a $155 GC (2 years of MSD). I got the third tivo, an 80hrDT, for $30 under a promo a few months back. No way I'd commit to three years. Absolutely dumb plan.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Would I buy my first TiVo under todays pricing? Most likely no. Why?

Well 80% of what I record is from analog OTA the rest from satellite. So lets see:


Series 2 DT doesn't work with OTA 
Series 3 doesn't work with Satellite 
All that is left is the SA Series 2 which only can be used of OTA for a little more than 2 years. 

The 3 year commitment doesn't bother me at all but TiVo doesn't make a product that serves all me needs and has a 3 year useful life for me.

Now if the Series 3 could record from/control my satellite box (yes I understand it would only be SD) or if they added analog and digital OTA capabilities to the Series 2 DT I could see myself buying either of them with the current 3 year perpaid contract.

Thanks,


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## DrewTivo (Mar 30, 2005)

The question is a bit odd, so I take it to mean this:

With the current price structure, and if you did not already have tivo, would you be interested?

My answer is yes. Sure, the price is higher when I started. And, yes, it's kind of expensive. But I'd at least give it a shot at the one year rate, with free box, and then renew after that if I liked it.

Of course, I'd rather the old terms, but that's because they're better.


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## jimmymac (Nov 6, 2002)

I'm very much against service contracts after getting burned on several things last year when I got laid off and I moved. I have an unused series 2 sitting in a closet that I won't reactivate because I don't want to get locked into any kind of contract, especially with aging technology.


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## Welshdog (Jan 4, 2005)

Netflix, cell phones, cable, Tivo, Gevalia, ISPs and others. All neverending wallet extractions for what are pretty much non-essential services. Sure we all want these things, but I understand how some can get fed up with yet another monthly drain on the cash flow. The new price structure does not appeal to me and it doesn't seem to offer much incentive to new customers give Tivo a try.

I think I have decided just tonight that I need to buy an S3 and transfer one of our lifetimes over to it. I want to avoid another monthly fee into the future and this is the only path. We'll still have a lifetimed RS-TX 60 with a burner that we'll keep indefinitely. When everything goes digital I'm sure there will be a "black box" that will feed it the analog it needs.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Since I don't have digital cable and don't want it, and would want a DVR, yes. Can't think of a less expensive alternative in that case.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

The new price structure is definitely not attractive to new users. However, since I've been using TiVo and really like it, I'm willing to pay a couple years up front for the subscription discount. That will be when I switch to cable and S3 in a few months. I probably wouldn't buy a 2 year subscription up-front if I wasn't already familiar with TiVo. $19.95 per month with a 1 year commitment is pretty steep just to try it out. Several years ago, before I went with DirecTiVo, I had a subscription for a couple months at $12.95. Since DirecTV provides the TiVo guide data from their end (they charge $6/mo for it), I didn't need the subscription anymore and cancelled it. I would have gotten screwed doing that with the new pricing structure.


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## HeatherA (Jan 10, 2002)

samo said:


> If I didn't have a choice of satellite DVRs and if cable DVRs are as bad as people on this forum say, then I would buy $300 plan and consider TiVo a disposable electronic gadget that will last up to 3 years before I have to take it to the curb.


However, if you had never had TiVo you'd probably not realize how inferior the cable DVR offerings were and gone happily into the night. Most people that are converting now are just happy to be moving away from their cumbersome VCRs.

I would never have gotten TiVo at this pricing structure. My husband wouldn't have allowed it, especially with our cable company's DVR being $8.95 a month and recording HD programming.

Having had TiVo, Media Center and Beyond TV. I would leave TiVo if I had to be on a contract with them. I really hate the fact that they charge such a large cancellation fee if you have to leave for any reason. It's just not the TiVo I've known and loved all of these years... the business side is so out of wack these days. It just leaves me shaking my head and wondering...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Welshdog said:


> Netflix, cell phones, cable, Tivo, Gevalia, ISPs and others.


Netflix - free market with competition. Decent prices/terms. No commit.
Cell phones - Oligopoly with suppliers offering similar terms. Stiff pricing, commits.
Cable - Monopoly/Oligopoly stiff prices but still no commit, luckily.
ISPs - Oligopoly with some startup/growth style competition. Stiff prices and good discount offerings. Some commits.
TiVo DVR - free market with inexpensive/no commit offerings from financially well backed players. Other options rapidly coming of age. One player with big losses and slow product development playing the cell phone game.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> Since I don't have digital cable and don't want it, and would want a DVR, yes. Can't think of a less expensive alternative in that case.


You can't insist on getting a cableDVR without content package upgrades for better terms than $19.95/mo 1yr commit or $12.95/mo 3yr commit?


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## sdzc (Sep 4, 2005)

Hopefully TIVO itself is learning a lot from this thread.

75% of potential buyers would walk away because of the new pricing structure. WOW! Not a good business model.

I thought the year contract was bad when I signed up my last TIVO and now it is three years to get the lowest price? No way would I have 5 TIVO's if that was in place when I got mine. Probably would not even have 1...

Lesson: Fair prices and a great product = success. You have the product (software), just do not mess it up. 

P.S. Thanks you TIVO for 8.1. Too bad it took so long to get to us, but I am glad it finally did. I would not let it happen again as the negative commentary probably scared a ton of people away.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

HeatherA said:


> I would never have gotten TiVo at this pricing structure. My husband wouldn't have allowed it, especially with our cable company's DVR being $8.95 a month and recording HD programming.


Watch out for hidden costs with these service provider DVR's. In comparing how much cable HD DVR or satellite HD DVR was going to cost compared to cable and S3, I found plenty of them. For instance, my cable company only charges $9 for the DVR rental, but also charges $6 for guide data. That makes the DVR rental $15 in reality. My satellite provider charges only $5 for the box rental, but adds a $5 mirroring fee and $6 programming fee. That's $16 for the for the DVR. After seeing that, I feel much better about the cost of a TiVo subscription.


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## JacksTiVo (Jan 7, 2006)

I bought my 30 hour Series 1 exactly 60 months ago. Here is my rough financial analysis:

Purchase price = $350
Lifetime = $250
Upgrade (250 hrs) = $120
Total = $720

$720/60 months = $12/month and what I now own is a TiVo with 5 year old technology with none of the broadband applications. Of course since it has LT I will continue to own it and as it gets older, the per month average cost per month does decline as long as the hard drive does not fail and has to be replaced. (Also being able to transfer LT for $200 to an $800 S3 should not be considered as a reason for originally purchasing the S1. I bought the S1 because I wanted to have TiVo in my home.) 

If I understand the new pricing, you can get an 80 hour S2 for $0 initial cost and with a three year - $299 prepaid contract it comes to about $8.30 per month. And after 3 years you can go over to the monthly rate of $14.95 per month. So after 60 months the total cost would be $299 + $14.95 x 24 months = $657.80.

$657.80/60 = $10.96/month and I would have a 5 year old S2 with all the broadband applications. The only shortcoming is that it is an 80 hour TiVo, so spend $120 for a new hard drive = $657.80 + $120 = $777.80/60 months = $12.96/month.

It seems to me that the costs are about the same after 5 years. Of course this does not account for the time value of money, in other words, I had to layout significant upfront costs for the S1 (thus I could not earn interest in the bank on the money) versus only the 3 year prepaid for the S2.

TiVo is moving to the "Gillette" business model, give the razors TiVo DVR) away for nothing and receive a continuous revenue stream by selling the blades (TiVo subscriptions). The cable companies are doing the same thing, give the DVR box to the consumer and charge a monthly "subscription" fee. The only way TiVo can distinguish itself from the Cable companies is provide great user applications.


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## rick123 (Dec 9, 2004)

I am hooked on DVR technology. I absolutely love the freedom from network schedules the DVR provides. 

I also really like my Tivo's. I have not seen any of the generic cable dvrs in action, so I can't compare them to a Tivo. From what I have read, apparently Tivo's user interface is well ahead of their cable competition.

That said, it seems apparent to me that the cable dvr's are capable of accomplishing the important DVR features. They may not do it as well or as quick or as slick as a tivo does, but they get the job done. That takes a lot of the "shine" off of tivo without even looking at price per month.

But looking at the new price per month, $20 bucks for a year (for someone wanting to try out the service) is a REAL turn-off to new customers IMO. They would never get me for that. If I had seen a tivo and a cable dvr in action, maybe they would get me at the 3 year rate. However, to lock in a tivo for 3 years with HD coming and tech advancing is not appealing to me either.

With the new pricing, I would have to pass on tivo and would rent a cable dvr for awhile to see how the tech evolved and prices dropped as HD broadcast gets closer. 

With this new pricing (way overpriced for the product IMO), I am glad I have my lifetime with the right to add additional units at the $6.95 pm rate. I plan to keep my lifetime alive forever if possible and add new higher tech units as required. 

Lifetime unit was free after rebate, +$300 (LT), +100 (HD), plus wired adapter ($30) = $430 total. Second unit was free after rebate + $80 (HD) +$30 adapter. 

I feel I am now practically "steeling" the tivo service compared to what others are having to pay! At my prices, tivo is a great value and I am a VERY satisfied customer!


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> You can't insist on getting a cableDVR without content package upgrades for better terms than $19.95/mo 1yr commit or $12.95/mo 3yr commit?


My basic cable costs me $10/month. It would be $30/month with TiVo for one year.

The digital package with DVR would cost me a minimum of $55 IIRC, for channels I never watch (I had it for a while, but literally never watched them).

I don't know if I can insist that the cable company somehow makes an exception for me.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

sdzc said:


> Hopefully TIVO itself is learning a lot from this thread.
> 
> 75% of potential buyers would walk away because of the new pricing structure. WOW! Not a good business model.


I'm one of the vigorous complainers about the new pricing. So I think you're correct. But we must remember this poll is hardly scientific and also quite a limited sample size.

So TiVo can take away one of three things:

1) ignore polls like this entirely. They're too busy announcing nebulous deals that may or may not actually happen years in the future.

2) not put much weight into polls like this. Complainers tend to be much more vocal than people who are satisfied. Maybe we're the disgruntled lunatic fringe.

3) think seriously about the message being sent by this poll and by the other similar discussions in Tivo Community.

My hunch is TiVo is somewhere between #1 and #2. Do you seriously think anyone with any real decision making authority pays any attention to the "peanut gallery" here? I'd give 10:1 odds that Tom Rogers has never read 1 message by logging in here. I'd stipulate that someone else may have directed him to one or two messages from TiVo Community.

It doesn't matter if a handful of techies at TiVo read messages here. They probably have very little influence over company policy. I've never worked at a company of any decent size where top management gave a f*** about what the little people employees thought. Why should TiVo be an exception?


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I don't know if I can insist that the cable company somehow makes an exception for me.


Keep us posted...


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> 1) ignore polls like this entirely. They're too busy announcing nebulous deals that may or may not actually happen years in the future.
> 
> -------------
> 
> I've never worked at a company of any decent size where top management gave a f*** about what the little people employees thought. Why should TiVo be an exception?


Some deals may or may not happen months in the future.

Give me your definition of decent first so I don't end up answering a trick question.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

I'd like to revisit my answer -- 

Would I, 6 years ago, have bought a tivo if the current pricing structure was in effect? Yes

Would I, today, buy my first tivo under the current pricing structure? No. 

So I guess that's more of a no answer than a yes.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Gai-jin said:


> I'd like to revisit my answer --
> 
> Would I, 6 years ago, have bought a tivo if the current pricing structure was in effect? Yes
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is you don't believe in the time value of money? Lets look at it numerically. Best deal is 3 years prepaid at $299.

So you are saying you were willing to pay $299 at Time 0 but not willing to pay $299 at time 6. Assuming an average market return of 11% using time value of money the $299 at time 0 will still be $299 at time zero and then the $299 at time 6 would be $159.86 at time zero.

So yes at paying $299 then but no to paying the equivalent for $159.86.

If you want to go forward instead and say the pricing plan was offered then you decided to wait invest your money and then 6 years later decided to purchase and the same plan was still offered same price then your $299 would be worth $559.25.


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## Uncle Briggs (Sep 11, 2004)

I definitely would have. I still think that TiVo is a fantastic product. Over a period of about 18 months I went from 4 VCR's to 3 TiVo's with 4 tuners. I think TiVo is money well spent.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Einselen said:


> So what you are saying is you don't believe in the time value of money?


Nope, that has nothing to do with it. My reasoning is 2-fold -- 6 years ago I was younger, and much less responsible. I would spend money I didn't have, on things I didn't need, without giving it a second thought. Now, years later, I like to think I'm not just older, but a little wiser. I have a wife and child, and realize there are things more important in life than toys.

Secondly, the market is entirely different now than it was then. There are many other DVR options available now. For about half the monthly cost of tivo, I can get a cable company DVR with no upfront cost. HD even, if I subscribe to those channels. I could get a dish DVR, or configure my PC to act as a DVR. Today's market isn't the same one TiVo faced in early 2000.


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## 1003 (Jul 14, 2000)

*Way back when*
I bought into TiVo and later DirecTV-TiVo they were a progressive and innovative company/combination offering something unique.

Today both companies seem to be completely disintersted in the direction I want to go. I'm looking for consistent high quality non-sports HD programming.

TiVo is interested in providing software to anybody willing to buy in. The proposition of a closed end with an option to pay on forever. If there was an option to move on to other (free) program guide sources once the commitment period ends it may be an option. Monthly payment for 12 local stations guide data is not a fair bargain. Lifetime was my primary reason for choosing TiVo over Replay. Apparently MicroSoft, MythTV and other PC solutions are the only lifetime choices

DirecTV is actively pursuing local markets, not increasing the number and quality of HD channels available elsewhere. While I agree that DirecTV has a marketing plan for these markets my selfish self wants more. DirecTV offers four or so downconverted channels instead of the 12 full quality I get frrom antenna. DirecTV has also allowed programs to be downconverted based on an 'illegally' set broadcast (required by the copyright holder) flag that does not allow full HDTV to be output over component. These same programs don't get corrupted (in the same way) when broadcast over the satellite signal? Thinking I may want to get fitted for a tinfoil hat over that one.

Wonder if Dish, Comcast or somebody else really wants my ongoing dollars...


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Gai-jin said:


> Nope, that has nothing to do with it. My reasoning is 2-fold -- 6 years ago I was younger, and much less responsible. I would spend money I didn't have, on things I didn't need, without giving it a second thought. Now, years later, I like to think I'm not just older, but a little wiser. I have a wife and child, and realize there are things more important in life than toys.
> 
> Secondly, the market is entirely different now than it was then. There are many other DVR options available now. For about half the monthly cost of tivo, I can get a cable company DVR with no upfront cost. HD even, if I subscribe to those channels. I could get a dish DVR, or configure my PC to act as a DVR. Today's market isn't the same one TiVo faced in early 2000.


Fair enough.


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## classicsat (Feb 18, 2004)

sdzc said:


> 75% of potential buyers would walk away because of the new pricing structure.


How is it you know that?
It could be 75% of your sort of people, if anything, not the general populace, or the market segment TiVo is going for, which they have done the market research and determined their fate.


> Lesson: Fair prices and a great product = success. You have the product (software), just do not mess it up.


But what is "Fair"

Some people might find no money down (net) and $20/month fair.
Yes, some people don't.


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## rodalpho (Sep 12, 2006)

I voted no, but that isn't exactly accurate. I definitely would have bought a tivo in 2000 under the current structure simply because it was the only game in town. That doesn't apply in 2007 when you can get an 8300HD for $15/month.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Gai-jin said:


> I'd like to revisit my answer --
> 
> Would I, 6 years ago, have bought a tivo if the current pricing structure was in effect? Yes
> 
> ...


There's a couple reasons why that's probably the answer most would give.

1) TiVo's screwed around with their pricing/packaging a few times now, always much worse than the previous offerings. There's a segment unwilling to wait around to see how they'll get burned again that's willing to put up a little more money just to avoid that headache.

2) There's competition; including numerous options requiring no subscription at all.

Back in "the day" TiVo was pretty much it. TiVo still has a good product, though not a whole lot different from "back in the day," but now there's a myriad of alternatives. Some, perhaps, not for the inexperienced, but options that exist nonetheless. And right on the horizon is the promise of even more choices, at better prices, with more features.

There's also an erosion of TiVo benefits that's occurring; Advertising is encroaching on the user interface as prices increase. There's nothing about the advanced features over and above basic recording that requires additional payment, yet TiVo wants to charge more month to month (as opposed to one time up front) because those features exist.

So it's only natural that resistance to lengthier commitments and higher short-term prices will exist.

I really hate threads like this. They make me realize I keep sliding further and further away from TiVo... or rather I'm being pushed further and further away by TiVo.

Sometimes one just believes so strongly a company is continuing to move down a toilet that you just don't care to hang around anymore, even though you also wish you could do something to help prevent it from happening.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

I would have done exactly the same, but only because of the 30 day escape. But- I would have been a lot more rigorous in the first 30 days about identifying weaknesses. For the first 2 weeks, it really baffled me why people liked it so much despite the fact is was so bad at channel surfing.

Without the 30 day escape, I probably would have gone to someone's house to try it. Quiet honestly though, I don't think I ever would have experienced the DVR perspective shift if I just spent a half an hour or an hour with it.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I'm one of the vigorous complainers about the new pricing. So I think you're correct. But we must remember this poll is hardly scientific and also quite a limited sample size.


200 responses is a pretty good sample size to get a realistic indication of the sentiment here. And, remember, the people on this board are largely rabid TiVo fans. If 72% of rabid TiVo fans think if they had to buy their first TiVo today, they wouldn't under the current pricing plan, I suspect that the majority of potential users would be much LESS inclined to purchase under the current plan.

And we don't need polls to tell us this. If you've spent ANY time trying to convince friends to buy TiVo over the years you know how hard it was under the earlier plans. At this point I've thrown up my hands and am not even bothering to try because I know of nobody that I could convince to purchas a TiVo under this pricing model.

And its really sad too because TiVo has finally just come to Canada (well sort of). I was all set to start evangelizing to my friends and family here in Canada, well as soon as they actually start selling in retail here, but, as I say, I'm not going to bother any more.

And, what's the deal with sales into Mexico before Canada. No offense to Mexico but TiVo still isn't in retail in Canada, won't sell directly to Canada or directly support Canadian users (I otta know, I just went th rough the S3 warranty exchange process) yet they are about to distribute in Mexico. Makes me scratch my head - not to mention being a bit peaved! But that's a bit off topic.

I hope my S3 lasts a long long time because it will be my last TiVo - that is unless Tivo changes their pricing model back.

...Dale


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## johndierks (Sep 5, 2002)

I think the problem is that Tivo shouldn't ever have been a product that is sold under a subscription model. I don't pay monthly service fees for my car, my computer, or anything else that doesn't require a substantive infrastructure network. (Cell phone, cable TV, etc) The only 'service' provided is the guide data, but that's all public info anyway that is already available for free. 

Tivo is so afraid of pricing people out of the product that they have to come up with these crazy payment schemes to hide the true costs. They should figure out real ways to cut their costs and lower the tivo's price if they think it's too high. Tivo should sell the hardware for what it costs, provide the guide data for free and then sell feature upgrades. 

My two cents.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Dajad said:


> 200 responses is a pretty good sample size to get a realistic indication of the sentiment here. And, remember, the people on this board are largely rabid TiVo fans. If 72% of rabid TiVo fans think if they had to buy their first TiVo today, they wouldn't under the current pricing plan, I suspect that the majority of potential users would be much LESS inclined to purchase under the current plan.


Dale while true it is a good sample size there is more behind it then current users. Tivo has probably done tons of looking at numbers while calculating menu pricing, etc. to best max profits. Either it will work out or it will fail and they will have to correct numbers.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Einselen said:


> Dale while true it is a good sample size there is more behind it then current users. Tivo has probably done tons of looking at numbers while calculating menu pricing, etc. to best max profits. Either it will work out or it will fail and they will have to correct numbers.


And I have no doubt part of that is "we'll lose XX% of our customers but the remaining will make up the loss in the higher monthly costs."

XX as in double-digits.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

dswallow said:


> And I have no doubt part of that is "we'll lose XX% of our customers but the remaining will make up the loss in the higher monthly costs."
> 
> XX as in double-digits.


Part of it is this is the demand curve, here is what we need to produce to maximize profits and here is the new price at that quantity. I know this is more simplistic then it actually is, but it seems as though about 149/~200 fall off that curve.


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

I'm an ex-subscriber who was just about to come back to Tivo. I had decided I'd had enough of the cable company gouging me, and it was a matter of principle that I was ditching the Cablevision DVR ($5 a month for the "box" and $9.95 a month for the "DVR service") to go back to Tivo without a cable box.

Then I went to reactivate the service. Last time I subscribed, it was like $14.88 with tax each month. I go to the site tonight and it's $20 a month and I have to commit to a year??? Are you kidding?

So I came here to see if anyone else was outraged at this. Guess not. Seems more like most people did the smart thing & got lifetimes when they were available. Wish I had...

Guess I'll be using my Tivo just to change channels now. This sucks. If it was $20 a month with no committment, I'd have to think it over. Tivo trying to lock me into a year just ticks me off.

Sorry Tivo... You're good, but you're not THAT good...


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

Not that it's much help, but for about $60 more than 1 yr @19.95/mo you can buy the three year pre-paid which works out to under $9/mo.

Three years is longer than I've owned a Tivo but if I had to buy / activate on today's plans, that's the hot deal.


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## msaeger (Oct 4, 2002)

No way. I haven't bought a cell phone due to them forcing programs like the new Tivo ones on you. No contracts !


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

msaeger said:


> No way. I haven't bought a cell phone due to them forcing programs like the new Tivo ones on you. No contracts !


That's exactly it. I don't like the idea of now paying $19.95 a month for Tivo, but if it wasn't for the contract, I'd have to think about it. The contract kills the deal entirely.

I don't understand why Tivo wouldn't want my $19.95 a month even for a half year? I already own the box...this would just be a re-activation...

Seems stupid to me on their part...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Shawn95GT said:


> Not that it's much help, but for about $60 more than 1 yr @19.95/mo you can buy the three year pre-paid which works out to under $9/mo.
> 
> Three years is longer than I've owned a Tivo but if I had to buy / activate on today's plans, that's the hot deal.


Anyone willing to commit or prepay one year should certainly seriously consider 3 years instead simply because the incremental cost is so minimal. For some it is hard to get past the idea of a "3 year" commitment, but technically, as you pointed out, it's only a 15 month commitment if you were willing to pay the higher price from a 1 year commitment.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Dajad said:


> 200 responses is a pretty good sample size to get a realistic indication of the sentiment here. And, remember, the people on this board are largely rabid TiVo fans. If 72% of rabid TiVo fans think if they had to buy their first TiVo today, they wouldn't under the current pricing plan, I suspect that the majority of potential users would be much LESS inclined to purchase under the current plan.


Dale, I don't think you are hearing Classic's point:


classicsat said:


> It could be 75% of your sort of people, if anything, not the general populace, or the market segment TiVo is going for, which they have done the market research and determined their fate.


Electric dryers don't rank high up on the conversation list these days. Before I fixed our dryer yesterday, I was about to buy the identical make and model whose design is the same as it was 10 years ago.

Naturally at some point the notion of an Electronic clothes dryer was exciting- you could be the first on your block to have one, and establish your status in the women's auxillary by proudly demonstrating yours while the ladies are over for tea.

Who knows which digital media device will become ubitquitous in the living room. One thing we can predict with confidence. Whatever form it takes, accompanying this commonnes comes unavoidable dullness about discussing the commonplace. And it is no longer interesting to folks in communications venues whether the venue is the Saturday Tea, or a modern day internet BBS.

My new next door neighbor doesn't give a crap about Television, the HD thing, digital or flat screens. The have analog cable but are more interested in other things than watching it. But she very much does care what her kids are watching and was horrified by some of the shows her five year old boy wanted to watch, and even more the trash commercials her kids were being exposed to. So I told her about how she could have a bajillion shows all ready to play on the DVR and she could prescreen each series before setting a season pass. I am lending her an extra DT Tivo for a week while one of the relatives is out of town and doesn't need it.

She has never seen an internet forum, nor does she have any interest in reading any kind of information on the lastest and greatest electronic anything.

But she was extremely interested in something that she could use to allow her kids to watch stuff but the violent cartoons and other shows that she detests.

Both her and Service Station Lady will never read TCF.

So while everyone on TCF is thinking the hot new product is the S3, the real story is in analog cable. The DT Tivo. Mexico. 36 million analog cable users who, if they want a DVR have only one company to turn to.

Tivo. And when the analog switchover happens? An ATSC QAM Tivo would qualify as a subsidized conversion box.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

HDTiVo said:


> Some deals may or may not happen months in the future.
> 
> Give me your definition of decent first so I don't end up answering a trick question.


Actually I did mean to say years in the future rather than months in the future. How long has it been since Comcast was announced? Certainly over a year and nothing but delays and more delays.

As to "decent" company size I think it's somewhere around 100 to 200 people. The company is too big for the CEO and other bigshots to know the peons very well. One phrase from the past was "management by wandering around", but that doesn't really work once a company is too big. Because even if the CEO does speak more than 3 sentences a year to you one-on-one, he's not likely to listen to what you say anyway. He's surrounded by sycophants (nee other top managers he's hired). They're his counsel and they probably don't read TCF either.

Also high tech companies (the only ones I'm familiar with) tend to have a dynamic of one group being the gods the others being held in contempt. In some companies hardware rules, others it's software. I suspect in TiVo's case it's marketing. And marketing *ALWAYS* thinks they know everything and so they're not likely to care about anyone else. There was a phrase I used to use for marketers a long time ago: liberal arts marketing slime.

YMMV.


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## HeatherA (Jan 10, 2002)

volswagn said:


> So I came here to see if anyone else was outraged at this. Guess not. Seems more like most people did the smart thing & got lifetimes when they were available. Wish I had...


You must have missed this thread: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=325118


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## chain777 (Jan 23, 2004)

JJ said:


> *<snip> Lifetime was my primary reason for choosing TiVo over Replay. Apparently MicroSoft, MythTV and other PC solutions are the only lifetime choices>
> 
> *


*

Not that it matters much now, but Replay has always offered lifetime, and still does for $299. Monthly is still $12.95 or $6.95 multi-discount.*


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## Fraser+Dief (Nov 18, 2005)

Bought tivo *only* because of Lifetime. Without, no sale. So the latest changes technically are irrelevant, to me.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> As to "decent" company size I think it's somewhere around 100 to 200 people. The company is too big for the CEO and other bigshots to know the peons very well.
> ....
> There was a phrase I used to use for marketers a long time ago: liberal arts marketing slime.
> 
> YMMV.


You must be kidding. Anything more than 100 to 200 is too big?!? And as for unmanageable, really there are a lot of management theories that work quite well in high technology fields. Whether you are working in a genetic research pharmeceutical field or whether it is CE products for the living room, the future of the company is in large part dictated by technological innovations. A company I worked for was well, well over 200 folks, and the CEO not only knew my name, but I would regularly speak with him about what was happening in my field. And his questions were usually were extremely focused and well thought out.

Re: "slime"- Our term for marketing folks was light hearted, and we used this as a normal way of addressing them. But it was quite true. The weasel is able to take down foes many times their own weight. Viper like fangs. Razor sharp claws. Cunning. The Weasel.

Anyhow, the good ones are not about hand waves and superficial attempts at constructing alternate realities for use in deluding customers.

EG- understanding facts like- what was it on that Tivo slide last year?- one third of the market was analog cable- like 36 million. That is immense. Last year in november everyone was saying like yeah- this market is sensitive to big up front expenses so ok if you want to have a sustainable giveaway you have to make it up somehow and the traditional way is N year commitments with penalties. The financing is simple on that because basically what they are doing is working out a loan to the customer.

That's all about getting in the head of your target consumer, figuring out what is blocking the sale, and taking action to remove those obstacles. As a technical guy, I think of it as stuff people should figure for themselves but ok ok I admit most folks don't, including many in my own family.

So weasels whatever you say about them earn their pay. The weasels you watch out for are the smart ones not on your payroll. Oh yeah, and the ones in the meeting that have their eyes on the same jellyroll. Mind those razor sharp claws.


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## brebeans (Sep 5, 2003)

Hi

Hard to say about whether I would have bought Tivo with current pricing plans.

Given the rave reviews everyone was giving it, I went out and bought it and the lifetime option was a key consideration. I don't think it would have been as easy a sell.

I do love Tivo and its functionality.

However, I would not buy another Tivo with it's current pricing. I have 2 S2s, both with lifetime subs. I am now selling one of them and going over to Comcast DVR since I know have an HDTV. Although I briefly considered an S3, spending $700-$800 for a box, with no lifetime option was not an option for me. Plus, reading the snafus with S3 boxes pretty much pointed me in the direction of comcast dvr.

I will keep my other Tivo and enjoy it on our non HDTV, use the HME, etc. , all of which I love.

I don't see many people shelling out the kind of money for S3s that Tivo is asking, without a lifetime option. Perhaps I would have considered it then.

I know some folks might say that I don't have a lifetime option with Comcast either. True, but I'm not shelling out $800 up front, in addition to monthly costs.

Bottom line, lifetime subscription (or MUCH cheaper S3 box ) makes a huge difference either then or now.....
sorry Tivo.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Justin Thyme said:


> EG- understanding facts like- what was it on that Tivo slide last year?- one third of the market was analog cable- like 36 million.


Sorry, that was wrong. It is over half, because US cable households stands at 69 million. source

Not sure what Cable HD households are as a percentage of cable customers. Must be single digits.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

brebeans said:


> I don't see many people shelling out the kind of money for S3s that Tivo is asking, without a lifetime option. Perhaps I would have considered it then.


It's very easy to get S3 lifetime for $500 or less.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

volswagn said:


> Then I went to reactivate the service. Last time I subscribed, it was like $14.88 with tax each month. I go to the site tonight and it's $20 a month and I have to commit to a year??? Are you kidding?


I think TiVo needs to highlight their cheaper options. I saw that $20 per month with a 1 year commitment first thing and got a case of sticker shock. Then, after looking more closely, I saw the pre-pay options and felt much better. TiVo is doing themselves a disservice by listing the highest rate most visibly at the top. That's not very smart marketing, but has TiVo ever done well in that department?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

CraigHB said:


> I think TiVo needs to highlight their cheaper options.


Very good point. Flip everything on the price plan page upside down. The first number that a potential customer sees should be $8.31/month.


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

c3 said:


> Very good point. Flip everything on the price plan page upside down. The first number that a potential customer sees should be $8.31/month.


Again, it's not so much the cost as the COMMITMENT! When I buy a car I'm committing to five years of payments. When I buy a cellphone I'm committing to a year of payments. I'm now going to commit to a TECHNOLOGY company that is bleeding millions every year that I'm going to stay with them for three years to get that kind of deal? Especially when they keep changing their rates and they have screwed me over in the past (see my other post)? Sorry, not a very smart move.

The only contracts I sign are for my cell (because I have to for work), my car payments and my mortgage. I continue to be amazed that Tivo doesn't want my money unless I commit to them for a year. This isn't a relationship, it's a service.


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## kb7oeb (Jan 18, 2005)

atmuscarella said:


> Would I buy my first TiVo under todays pricing? Most likely no. Why?
> 
> Well 80% of what I record is from analog OTA the rest from satellite. So lets see:
> 
> ...


Consider upgrading to an HD satellite box, most of them can be configured to allow your tivo to record the digital OTA broadcasts.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

volswagn said:


> Again, it's not so much the cost as the COMMITMENT! When I buy a car I'm committing to five years of payments.


Just for the sake of discussion, you don't *have* to buy a car with payments. You can pay cash and have no commitment. And then, it's not a lifetime service deal either. You can average the cost of the car over the number of months you plan to keep it to find the monthly cost. Kind of the same idea for the TiVo pre-pay options.

I would totally agree about the commitment issue and cost of TiVo if not for the pre-pay options. Without those, I would probably *not* be interested in TiVo myself.

As far as bleeding millions, Ford's not doing too well right now. Does that mean you would sell your Ford and buy something else because the company isn't making money? Though, I don't know if that's a good comparison because Ford has made lots of money in the past. TiVo has never made money as far as I know. I don't think they'll drop off the face, but it's likely they could change ownership.

I don't understand why TiVo has such a hard time making money. They're into two industries that generally do well, electronics and software.


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

> I don't understand why TiVo has such a hard time making money. They're into two industries that generally do well, electronics and software.


it just *TV*. Most people are already paying to view TV. Tacking on extra monthly payments for tivo is something that nobody I know (in meatspace, not online) is willing to do now. If they want a dvr they use the cable company's version because it's cheaper, and they're none the wiser.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

chavez said:


> If they want a dvr they use the cable company's version because it's cheaper


No, it's not. I have to pay Comcast *additional* $53.50 per month if I want to get their DVR.


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

> No, it's not. I have to pay Comcast additional $53.50 per month if I want to get their DVR.


sounds like they're taking you for a ride. the people I know using comcast dvrs aren't paying anywhere near that much (this is for digital but not hd)


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

CraigHB said:


> I don't understand why TiVo has such a hard time making money. They're into two industries that generally do well, electronics and software.


Sony and Pioneer haven't done any better with their DVRs. The Sony dual CC DVR is no longer manufactured. Does that mean that Sony is incompetent?

Third party DVR producers are competing with free.

Sony and the other major CE companies have bailed on DVRs.

Tivo's answer is to switch the focus to a market segment where they are not competing with free. 36 million analog users in the US. Nearly all the cable users in Mexico. Where next? The numbers are 68 million in India, 130 million in China and 53 million in the EU (both analog and digital, but the EU balance of analog/digital split is probably similar to the US and the India / China numbers are likely analog.

Multilingual EU guide would be a huge pain. It seems to me the Spanish speaking world is the low hanging fruit. Maybe India too, since english is a lingua franca, and the guide could be in a single language. Globally you think- heck these places have high poverty, how can you sell CE products there. Well, take a look at the penetration of cell phones and televisions. Actually what gets lost is that there is a substantial middle class in all of these countries. As a percentage of the total population it is small, but in terms of numbers they are huge markets.

At least, I think that is the way a weasel would look at it.


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:


> Sony and Pioneer haven't done any better with their DVRs. The Sony dual CC DVR is no longer manufactured. Does that mean that Sony is incompetent?


Yes, Sony is incompetent. The last truly revolutionary hit product they had was the Walkman. Although late to the home video game market, they have done well with the Playstation and PS2. Their PSP success has been questionable. They completely missed the LCD wave and have struggled to maintain market share. Their allowing the Xbox360 to debut a year ahead of the PS3 was questionable as well, although perhaps necessary. We'll see how it does.



> Tivo's answer is to switch the focus to a market segment where they are not competing with free. 36 million analog users in the US. Nearly all the cable users in Mexico. Where next? The numbers are 68 million in India, 130 million in China and 53 million in the EU (both analog and digital, but the EU balance of analog/digital split is probably similar to the US and the India / China numbers are likely analog.


I would ask why it is taking them so long? They are bleeding money and have been for years. The moment they enter the market in India and China I would imagine they will be hit with competition from domestic technological companies who specialize in making identical, cheaper products. Not only that, but we all know the issues with enforcing any kind of patent law in Asia. Mexico was probably a wise bet. China and India, I don't know. As you say, it's probably the low hanging fruit.


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

CraigHB said:


> As far as bleeding millions, Ford's not doing too well right now. Does that mean you would sell your Ford and buy something else because the company isn't making money? Though, I don't know if that's a good comparison because Ford has made lots of money in the past. TiVo has never made money as far as I know. I don't think they'll drop off the face, but it's likely they could change ownership.


Ford vs. Tivo is, I don't believe, an accurate comparison because I think the US government will not allow one of the "big three" to go down -- at least they haven't in the past. They will allow Ford some kind of bailout if necessary (PBGC will take over -- although if I recall correctly, GM is the one with real problems in this regard). Ford also has a century of history behind it.

Of course, someone could buy Tivo for the name alone (debts and all), since it is a household word, although I'm not sure how valuable it would be at this point. How valuable a brand name is "Band-Aid" or "Kleenex" or "Xerox?" I don't know.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

chavez said:


> sounds like they're taking you for a ride. the people I know using comcast dvrs aren't paying anywhere near that much (this is for digital but not hd)


Look. The numbers are all on the Comcast site. Analog from Comcast is $31.24 (Family Tier) has CNN, Bravo, Spike, AMC, SciFi, Discovery, Comedy central, TNT, History Channel, Cartoon Planet, Disney, locals etc etc.

For their POS DVR you are required to get digital:
Enhanced Cable (lowest all digital pack) $50.25.
DVR $11.95.
Comcast DVR solution is plus $31.66/month. (total $62.90 with required cable services).

Tivo DVR solution worst case is plus $8.31/month, free box in the best case, and worse case is $19.95/month. No installation fees.

Do the math. If there is some zip where the deal is better than Tivo, Just give us an address and zip and tell us the packages.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

volswagn said:


> Yes, Sony is incompetent.
> 
> ....
> 
> I would ask why it is taking them so long?


Ok. How about Pioneer, Toshiba, Samsung, Philips. What is taking them so long?

Read my answer. Try competing with "Free" sometime, and your competitor owns a massive distribution channel with armies of installers and if that's not bad enough- they are already are selling a product to your target customer.

But be my guest- play armchair quarterback and educate us all with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight how Sony, Toshiba, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer, Tivo should have done captured market share with DVRs. It seems to me there is only one company in that list that has a market share numbering in the millions.

In the early adopter curve of DVR penetration, you are looking at the market segment where the customers are on digital already. In that segment, why would someone go to the trouble of saying no to the cable company and trying something they no little about, costs money for the box, and costs more per month?

OK, now FF a few years. Costs of production have lowered and awareness of DVRs is much higher. Significant populations of analog cable users are interested in getting a DVR. The Cableco DVR is now at a huge cost disadvantage.

Why not earlier? Because we weren't there yet on the penetration curve.

As for losing money, when the cablecos first started they were in investment mode for many years buying up market share. Was that insane too? Tivo is making the right moves and is fighting some tough early penetration battles.


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

> For their POS DVR you are required to get digital:
> Enhanced Cable (lowest all digital pack) $50.25.
> DVR $11.95.
> Comcast DVR solution $62.90 per month.


no, you're paying $11.95 for the dvr. why don't you throw in the cost of your tv, couch, and house as well? i was responding to why tivo isn't appearing to do as well as the poster to whom i was responding thought it should. my experience in talking with people i know is that they aren't interested in going out and buying a tivo, and commiting to a monthly fee that is higher than the one attached to the cable dvr.

and how, if you have digital cable for $50.20, is this the case...


> Tivo DVR solution worst case $51.19.


Also, the dvr add on is $9.95/month for my area


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Sorry, you already have a TV and couch. We are looking at what extra we need to get the DVR in both cases. If Tivo needed a 220 converter, we'd have to add that in.

Ask yourself. What new things do I have to pay for to get the Comcast DVR if all I am buying now is analog Video. The answer is you have to pay $31.66 *extra* from what you are paying for now.

Whereas with Tivo you have to pay $8.31/month more.

Show me where I have erred.


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

> Ask yourself. What new things do I have to pay for to get the Comcast DVR if all I am buying now is analog Video. The answer is you have to pay $31.66 extra from what you are paying for now.


what if you have digital cable (as most people that i know do).


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

chavez said:


> no, you're paying $11.95 for the dvr. why don't you throw in the cost of your tv, couch, and house as well?


I don't think you are understanding.

Here is my situation as I can not comment on others.

Tivo $12.95/month (I prepaid for 3 years, but lets just keep it simple)

Now for me to get my cable company DVR (I live on campus so I get basic cable included in my rent) I would have to upgrade to digital (which only gives me about 7 new channels in digital all of which I personally would not watch, my GF though would watch maybe two shows on one of the channels) and then rent the DVR. So here are the costs.

$17/month Upgrade to Digital
$7/month DVR
-------
$24/month plus extra channels I could give a crap about

Now yes if a user already has digital package then a DVR will be only about $7/month (watch out for hidden fees such as remote fee, etc.) but the reason I purchased Tivo is because I could get a DVR for $13/month vs. through cable company at $24/month.

I also got it because at the end of this year I will be moving and I know I will have shows on my Tivo I will want to watch. Instead of doing a marathon of TV viewing before moving I will be able to take my Tivo with me. Also when I do move I will most likely have basic basic cable so I don't have to pay for the upgraded options and still be able to record. Last reason I got a Tivo is so I can upgrade it later. There is just something about having at least 200-250 GB in your Tivo.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

chavez said:


> what if you have digital cable (as most people that i know do).


As I stated in my last post then it will probably be cheaper for the cable co DVR. However Tivo has a lot more to offer then the cable co DVR. One of which I love, the ability to upgrade the drive. I can not wait to get a larger hard drive in my newest Tivo.


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:


> Whereas with Tivo you have to pay $8.31/month more.
> 
> Show me where I have erred.


I think you're being intellectually dishonest here... $8.31 a month provided you cough this all up at once for three years.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

chavez said:


> what if you have digital cable (as most people that i know do).


Exactly. For that market segment, it is tough. But what I have been droning on about is that less than half of cable households are in that segment. Digital customers happen to correlate with early adopters though, so the beginning was rough for all the CE companies when the Cablecos went to the $9-$12/month pricing for their DVRs. And CE companies don't particularly relish competing in the low end, so I think Tivo has outlasted them for competing on devices that digitize analog signals.

Could Comcast provide a device that digitizes analog? You bet. Will they?

The answer you will find by looking at where Comcast lists the description for its analog services. Remember more than half of its customers are analog. Yet you wouldn't know it by looking at their pages. The top level products page doesn't even mention anything non digital. You have to really be persistent to find analog.

That's a graphic answer about how enthusiastic they are about supporting analog customers. They are trying to convert them over, but there is very significant resistance.


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:


> Ok. How about Pioneer, Toshiba, Samsung, Philips. What is taking them so long?


I don't know what you're asking -- what is taking them so long to enter the DVR market? If that's the question, perhaps they know it's a useless endeavor. As you say, the competition is quite insurmountable (as Tivo has discovered over the past few years). Pioneer seems to be doing quite well in the DVD market. Samsung seems to be doing quite well in the display market. Not sure what Toshiba is specializing in these days, and Philips has lots going on. Lots more to do than get bogged down in a DVR market that the content providers (cable, sat, phone companies) have pretty well locked up.



> But be my guest- play armchair quarterback and educate us all with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight how Sony, Toshiba, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer, Tivo should have done captured market share with DVRs.


I don't think you understood my statement. Or you didn't really read it, or I didn't write it correctly. I'm not saying that Sony, Toshiba, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer should've successfully captured the DVR market by now... I'm saying that Tivo took their sweet time getting into foreign markets. Analog cable has been around for quite a while now, and I would argue there were more people on analog cable three years ago than there are now. As far as I am concerned, the Tivo is a direct replacement for the VCR as of three year ago. It is less a direct replacement for a digital cable box. Therefore, I'd have to say their time may have passed, hence their need to go to a more "analog" market like Mexico (apparently).



> OK, now FF a few years. Costs of production have lowered and awareness of DVRs is much higher. Significant populations of analog cable users are interested in getting a DVR. The Cableco DVR is now at a huge cost disadvantage.


You site one example of this, and it's not really an appropriate example. Lots of people have digital cable in the US. In fact, it was supposed to be a requirement that all television stations kill their analog signals by now (date was moved, of course). Cable could still provide analog signals to their customers of course, but they want to do away with their analog customers so they can fit 4 HD channels in the bandwidth of one analog channel. They're going digital.

As such, the cost for the average US digital cable subscriber (in my market, Cablevision has a 74% digital penetration rate) to jump to DVR from regular cable box is around $10-15 a month. I'm not talking analog to digital DVR, I'm talking digital cable to DVR. This is with NO annual commitment. That does not bode well for Tivo's BASIC SERVICE, their BASIC MISSION.

What the cable companies lack are the advanced features. So I'd argue that if you're correct that Tivo is looking for "upscale" customers, they are doing the right thing, but it remains to be seen how successful this will be. They need to push these advanced features much more than they have been if this is the case.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

volswagn said:


> I think you're being intellectually dishonest here... $8.31 a month provided you cough this all up at once for three years.


Sure. I said it was best case. The worst case with no prepay is $11.64 more per month than the best case with prepay.

Any way you stack it, the comcast price is a lot more for this very significant market segment. The comcast minimum is +$31.66 per month.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

volswagn said:


> I don't know what you're asking -- what is taking them so long to enter the DVR market?


 No. They all have already been in the DVR market for years. They messed up too. Tell us how they all are morons and how you would have done it different.



volswagn said:


> Cable could still provide analog signals to their customers of course, but they want to do away with their analog customers so they can fit 4 HD channels in the bandwidth of one analog channel. They're going digital.


Actually, Cable is required to carry OTA channels just as before. They are required to send them in the clear as ATSC QAM. The public is entitled to $40 to $50 subsidy to pay for ATSC to analog converters for each set in their house. The amount and limit on the number of sets varies from legistlative year to year.

So, whenever the FCC decides to really do the switchover, guess what.

A Tivo box with the analog tuner and MPEG encoder replaced by a QAM tuner will actually be cheaper to manufacture.

Plus, and *get this*- it qualifies as a QAM converter, so the gubmint will subsidize Tivo hardware costs.

Pretty nifty, huh.


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:


> No. They all have already been in the DVR market for years. They messed up too. Tell us how they all are morons and how you would have done it different.


No, they're apparently not morons unless they are still in the market. 



> So, whenever the FCC decides to really do the switchover, guess what.
> 
> A Tivo box with the analog tuner and MPEG encoder replaced by a QAM tuner will actually be cheaper to manufacture.
> 
> ...


Let's place bets on whether or not this will actually ever happen. Sounds nice, but I think not...


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

volswagn said:


> No, they're apparently not morons unless they are still in the market.


Well you see my point then. Multiple very smart companies tried to crack this market and the one that has the 4 million share is Tivo, not the others. If you want to claim that Tivo and the others have done it wrong, then please show us what they could have/should have done differently.



volswagn said:


> Let's place bets on whether or not this will actually ever happen. Sounds nice, but I think not...


If it is unlikely that Tivo will ever provide an ATSC Tivo after the switchover, show me why. 

It is fact that there will be switchover* sometime. * 
It is a fact that an analog tuner plus an mpeg encoder is more expensive than a qam tuner solution because you don't need the encoder. 
It is a fact that a device that inputs QAM and outputs analog qualifies as a converter. 
It is a technical fact that the output of the QAM tuner stage is little different than known designs Tivo had for the DTivo and the S3. 
It is a political fact that congress is going to have to subsidize converters when the analog switchover happens.....
So, if you would rather shove your hands in your pockets, shake your head and sagely inform us "it will never fly Orville", then fine. If you have something more substantial to offer, I would enjoy discussing it with you.


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## volswagn (Oct 24, 2004)

Justin Thyme said:


> Well you see my point then. Multiple very smart companies tried to crack this market and the one that has the 4 million share is Tivo, not the others. If you want to claim that Tivo and the others have done it wrong, then please show us what they could have/should have done differently.


I thought I had really done that. The annual commitment is really a killer, particularly for people who already own the equipment. I can understand them wanting to lock people in if they're buying new equipment, but not if they aren't.

If people just want to reactivate old equipment, it seems to me that any month-to-month subscription is "free money," and that there are plent of people who would be willing to sign up under those conditions, don't you think?

As far as competition, you can't just count Tivo. You have to count all the DVRs that are in service from cable companies, from the sat companies and from Verizon FiOS. Could there be four million of those? could well be. It's not one company, but it's still competition.



> If it is unlikely that Tivo will ever provide an ATSC Tivo after the switchover, show me why.


I'm not saying they won't provide it. I'm saying the government is not going to subsidize Tivo. It just ain't going to happen. Call me Orville.


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

msaeger said:


> No way. I haven't bought a cell phone due to them forcing programs like the new Tivo ones on you. No contracts !


You don't need a contract for a cell phone either.. and they're way cheaper than most people think, ESPECIALLY if you intend to use it only a little (e.g. an emergency phone)

Check out:
http://www.cellguru.net/prepaid_compare.htm
If you end up getting Virgin Mobile, please refer me! (PM for info)


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

c3 said:


> It's very easy to get S3 lifetime for $500 or less.


I think he was referring to the expense of the hardware.. he already has lifetime Tivos to transfer subscription from.

(Though current price seems around $680-ish, slightly below the $700-$800 he said.)


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

volswagn said:


> I thought I had really done that.


You specified small tweaks to Tivo's policy. I don't see anything in there that would have fundamentally alterred the outcome of round one concerning carrier provided DVRs.



volswagn said:


> I'm not saying they won't provide it. I'm saying the government is not going to subsidize Tivo. It just ain't going to happen. Call me Orville.


Well, again- you really have provided no analysis to support your assertion. The raw license fee for ATSC tuning is $14 per unit. There have been several proposals for converter legislation, and it's anyone's guess what the amount will be. In the last congress I think the floated amounts were $40 to $60. One of the proposals did prohibit that the converter box do anything except ATSC to analog conversion, so it is possible that Tivos will be ineligible. However there was push back on that ban. Thomson for example testified that such an ATSC to analog conversion only box would have to be priced in the $200 range. Congress obviously does not want to subsidize everyone buying DVD burners and DVRs that recieve ATSC, but on the other hand they can't magically change the laws of physics and dictate that production costs are going to come in at $40 or $50. Heck- you have the license, a power supply, a remote. $50 retail? Give me a fricking break. And the subsidies are for whom? Folks that are dependent on OTA as their source.

If you are talking realism about what Congress is going to do, recall the new faces in Congress. Do you seriously think the Democrats are going to take a prime constituency and piss them off by forcing them to buy an expensive device they didn't need before? All for the cause of reclaiming specrum which they will not believe they will recieve any benefit of? It's pretty hard to claim that Congress will never subsidize CE devices that not only convert ATSC but do other things.

I don't think anyone doubts that Congress will subsidize. It is unlikely they are going to pay for a full subsidy, so knowing that whatever they agree on will not be enough, are they just going to leave it at that? It's hard to make the case they will never do anything but that. One reasonable scenario is that they put a means test on it, but the coupons do not cover the entire price. To take the edge off that, they will allow any CE device that eats ATSC and spits out analog. Certainly many more DVD recorders than Tivos will be subsidized, and also many of the Cable and Satco boxes would qualify (I know the Dish 942 has an ATSC tuner).

Anyway, it is congress so anything could happen between now and when the analog ban really truly this time for real comes into effect.


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## HDTiVo (Nov 27, 2002)

Justin Thyme said:


> Well you see my point then. Multiple very smart companies tried to crack this market and the one that has the 4 million share is Tivo, not the others. If you want to claim that Tivo and the others have done it wrong, then please show us what they could have/should have done differently.


Actually TiVo has 1.6M and DTV has the rest. And TWC, the second largest cable provider with a fraction of TiVo's potential footprint, blew past TiVo on subs at the beginning of this year, having marketed DVRs for several years less than TiVo did.

I think Comcast and Cablevision are also doing far better than TiVo.

Meanwhile TiVo is targeting towards _fewer_ sub adds even with their DT & S3 competitive offerings on stream.


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## codyzumbro (Dec 6, 2006)

TIVO relies solely on word of mouth for advertisement, so here is mine: Do not buy TIVO or you will get mistreated by customer service for most problems. You will also be buying a product that has an average lifetime of 1 and 1/2 years. Which under their current contracts means that every 1 and 1/2 years you will have to purchase a completely new box.


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## bpurcell (Mar 16, 2005)

codyzumbro said:


> You will also be buying a product that has an average lifetime of 1 and 1/2 years. Which under their current contracts means that every 1 and 1/2 years you will have to purchase a completely new box.


This is so untrue that it's laughable. Look at my post from your other thread rant on this issue.


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## chavez (Nov 18, 2004)

> This is so untrue that it's laughable. Look at my post from your other thread rant on this issue.


yeah, but you know what? if a Tivo CSR told me that, I'd tell others too, especially potential customers. Tivo should get controll of its customer service. Pathetic.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

codyzumbro said:


> TIVO relies solely on word of mouth for advertisement, so here is mine: Do not buy TIVO or you will get mistreated by customer service for most problems.


Where have you been? People have been saying exactly that about cable companies for decades. TiVo just wants a level playing field.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

HDTiVo said:


> And TWC, the second largest cable provider with a fraction of TiVo's potential footprint, blew past TiVo on subs at the beginning of this year, having marketed DVRs for several years less than TiVo did.
> 
> I think Comcast and Cablevision are also doing far better than TiVo.


You lost the context of my challenge. Folks were claiming that Tivo did it all wrong. I pointed out that if they are idiots, then the entire CE industry is composed of idiots:


Justin Thyme said:


> Ok. How about Pioneer, Toshiba, Samsung, Philips. What is taking them so long?
> 
> Read my answer. _ *Try competing with "Free" sometime, and your competitor owns a massive distribution channel with armies of installers and if that's not bad enough- they are already are selling a product to your target customer. * _
> 
> But be my guest- play armchair quarterback and educate us all with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight how Sony, Toshiba, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer, Tivo should have done captured market share with DVRs. It seems to me there is only one company in that list that has a market share numbering in the millions.


So HD- it sounds like the Steve Martin sketch about how to be a millionaire and not pay taxes: 


Steve Martin said:


> "First, get a million dollars. Then when the IRS comes and asks why you didn't pay taxes, repeat these two words: 'I forgot.'"


So what you are saying is:

First get a communications network with 10 million customers.
Next rent them a box for $9.95 per month.

Simple. Why didn't Pioneer, Toshiba, Sony, Philips and Tivo figure that out?


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## fritolayguy (Oct 31, 2002)

codyzumbro said:


> TIVO relies solely on word of mouth for advertisement, so here is mine: Do not buy TIVO or you will get mistreated by customer service for most problems. You will also be buying a product that has an average lifetime of 1 and 1/2 years. Which under their current contracts means that every 1 and 1/2 years you will have to purchase a completely new box.


Dude, we get it. You're unhappy with TIVO customer service, and you are dropping the service. Some of us have had nothing but great service from TIVO, and are happy to spread the word.....No company will ever have 100% satisfied customers, and I have voiced my opinions about other companies when I was mistreated as well.

As far as the original question, I can't see where I would buy TIVO service today under the current pricing structure. I have lifetime on all 3 units, otherwise I'm sure I would use the DVR from the cable company. Odd thing is, they only allow one per household, so I'm glad I have 3 TIVO units  Without the lifetime subscription, I would not have purchased the Series 2 or the Series 3 that I have. The ability to upgrade has also been a big factor for me as well.

All in all, TIVO is the standard for our house, and anything less/different is just a cheap substitute.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

fritolayguy said:


> I have lifetime on all 3 units, otherwise I'm sure I would use the DVR from the cable company. Odd thing is, they only allow one per household, so I'm glad I have 3 TIVO units


One per household? Actually that makes sense because the DVR rental is subsidized by content subscription.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

c3 said:


> One per household? Actually that makes sense because the DVR rental is subsidized by content subscription.


That's illegal according to Section 629 of the 1996 telecom law. Competing service company provided boxes cannot be subsidized by other fees...


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Justin Thyme said:


> That's illegal according to Section 629 of the 1996 telecom law. Competing service company provided boxes cannot be subsidized by other fees...


There's "subsidized" and there's subsidized.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

Justin Thyme said:


> Plus, and *get this*- it qualifies as a QAM converter, so the gubmint will subsidize Tivo hardware costs.


That would be great. Sure be nice to see TiVo get a break.


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## lhuff (Aug 26, 2004)

Nope. When my box breaks, I'm outta here. Lifetime was great. Pay as you go at $12.95 is OK. Feeling like you're dealing with a cell phone company is terrible.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

JT: "it qualifies as a QAM converter"

Whoa. I meant ATSC converter.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

lhuff said:


> Nope. When my box breaks, I'm outta here. Lifetime was great. Pay as you go at $12.95 is OK. Feeling like you're dealing with a cell phone company is terrible.


I don't really have a problem with my cell phone company, I pay them $30 some per month, they give me a phone and a plan. I have a 1 year commitment. The provider before this one I was with for 3 years so it's unlikely I would want to switch or cancel before the year is up. Not a problem for me.

I'm not saying it's ok TiVo has gone to a commitment based contract, but these days, it's pretty common with just about every service provider. So many companies, especially ones that have little if any competition, rate the customer pretty low these days. The bar keeps getting lower and standard practices become acceptable that would not have been tolerated in the past.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

CraigHB said:


> So many companies, especially ones that have little if any competition, rate the customer pretty low these days. The bar keeps getting lower and standard practices become acceptable that would not have been tolerated in the past.


And this is exactly the problem. Why should we put up with this kind of treatment?


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

Gai-jin said:


> And this is exactly the problem. Why should we put up with this kind of treatment?


Of course you shouldn't if you feel strongly about being treated poorly and have a choice. Problem is, the accretion of smaller companies is making less choices for the consumer. And the government may or may not defend the consumer. Often times, you get screwed by a service provider and you have to take their crap because you have no option and you need or really want the service they offer.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

I think there should be ground rules about companies coming up with models where they are building the car, and are the only ones that can sell the gas. 

As a developer, I appreciate that for certain technologies, there are dependencies between the machines providing the services, and the consumer devices consuming the services. Naturally the vendor wants to provide an end to end solution. Naturally, they also want to lock out competitors mustling in on the businesses they invested heavily in to get started. 

But at what point does that become an anti competition scheme of blocking competitors because consumers can't leave because they are locked in due to hardware costs, or multi year plan?


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## mtchamp (May 15, 2001)

My main concern when buying my first TiVo in 2001 was the functionality. Secondly it was the purchase price. Circuit City had them for $399 with $100 rebate. I had been on the fence after seeing ads on DirecTV. The rebate and entry price point of $299 motivated me more than any other reason to even bother to try out the TiVo.

I needed an easier way than a VCR for recording TV. My plan was to try it for up to 30 days to see if I liked it or return it back to Circuit City. Of course I loved it immediately and did Lifetime. If there was no Lifetime, I still would have kept it and made monthly payments.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

Yea, me too. All I wanted was to obsolete the old VCR with a recorder that uses a hard disk medium. At the time, I had heard of TiVo, but didn't know it's main purpose was to record to disk. They did a bad job advertising it in the beginning, stressing what you could do with live TV instead of making of a point of its DVR capabilities. After a little research, I quickly found TiVo offered the functionality I was looking for and was the best game in town. However, things are changing since the service providers started offering their own DVR. It's probably good for the consumer in general, but could be the end for us that really like our TiVo's.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

Today'[s pricing is better than when I bought my box in 2002. The total cost is lower and today's boxes are better. Sure, I couldn't buy lifetime today, but instead I'd buy 3-years prepaid, no problem.


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## Flop (Dec 2, 2005)

Having not used a TiVo before, I would not get my first under this new payment structure. I'd just use the Cable co's at 1/2 the price.

That being said, after having owned a TiVo and used a cable co's DVR, I'd pay the current rates for a TiVo. TiVo just needs to do a better job advertising and differentiating it from the cable co DVR. If they can get people to use one, many will pay more for a TiVo over the cable co boxes.

Also, they really need to get pushing on the cable co partnerships to get TiVo service into cable co subscribers like they did with DirecTV.


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## Rooster (Oct 21, 2002)

Given the options today, no I wouldn't. When I bought TiVo it was pretty much between TiVo and ReplayTV if you wanted a DVR. Pricing structures were very similar, but a contract would've definitely pushed me to ReplayTV. Now, I can go with a $6 a month Time Warner DVR on a month-to-month basis and never have to worry about the hardware or I can pay double that for a 3 year commitment on an item with a 1 year warranty. I refuse to commit to a term longer than the hardware warranty and as much as I love TiVo, I wouldn't do that now. I prefer TiVo's interface to the Time Warner DVR, but the difference in pricing, contracts, and hardware responsibility is too much to justify (and let's be honest, recording HD without the $600+ upfront cost is definitely in Time Warner's favor as well). As soon as my lifetime unit dies, I'm gone for good.


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## Phantom Gremlin (Jun 20, 2002)

Rooster said:


> Now, I can go with a $6 a month Time Warner DVR on a month-to-month basis and never have to worry about the hardware or I can pay double that for a 3 year commitment on an item with a 1 year warranty.


I did a quick check of TiVo site and I couldn't find any info about warranties. Also I didn't find a search button.

But I believe that warranty is only 90 days (maybe for labor, maybe 1 year for parts).

I think TiVo would sell many more units with 3 year commitments if customers wouldn't have to worry about out-of-warranty expenses.

I've done the same math. $800 up front for S3, plus $300 for service, plus some unknown amount to repair it if it breaks after 90 days? What a brilliant pricing scheme.

TiVo fanboys mention cellphones locking people in to commitments. But I've had acquaintances with cellphones simply get a no-charge replacement for a broken phone during the commitment period. No dealing with manufacturer repair service. A replacement cellphone is first sent out and then customer is expected to return broken unit.


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## Rooster (Oct 21, 2002)

Phantom Gremlin said:


> I did a quick check of TiVo site and I couldn't find any info about warranties. Also I didn't find a search button.
> 
> But I believe that warranty is only 90 days (maybe for labor, maybe 1 year for parts).
> 
> ...


I could be wrong on the TiVo warranty period. I thought I remembered it being a year, but it was a while ago when I bought my units. If it's 90 days it only pushes TiVo further away from being competitive.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Yeah, it's 1 year parts, 90 days labor. But considering labor costs more than the purchase price of a tivo...

Also, with these 3 year commitments, it does say they extend the parts coverage for the length of the contract. However, it still excludes labor.

That would seem reasonable to me, if they'd ship me the part and I could do my own labor, but they won't.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Gai-jin said:


> Yeah, it's 1 year parts, 90 days labor. But considering labor costs more than the purchase price of a tivo...
> 
> Also, with these 3 year commitments, it does say they extend the parts coverage for the length of the contract. However, it still excludes labor.
> 
> That would seem reasonable to me, if they'd ship me the part and I could do my own labor, but they won't.


What exactly do they charge for "labor" when they ship you a refurbished unit instead of your unit repaired?


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

dswallow said:


> What exactly do they charge for "labor" when they ship you a refurbished unit instead of your unit repaired?


I don't know currently, but it used to be $99.


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

dswallow said:


> What exactly do they charge for "labor" when they ship you a refurbished unit instead of your unit repaired?


There is still labor. It is just a rotation. They take someone else's box and fix it, then you get it. Then they take your box and fix it, and someone else gets it. Same end result as taking your box and fixing it, then sending it back to you - only you don't have to wait as long.


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## parzec (Jun 21, 2002)

Nope - purchased numerous Tivo's under original terms and induced many others to purchase. Now with contracts and/or price increases I will never purchase another Tivo nor recommend it to anyone. I refuse to purchase an s3 because of contracts and/or price increases. Besides there are cheaper solutions with some arguably better options. (ie. using MyHD -- no erroneous broadcast flag errors, QAM support without cable card, shared programming between the Tivos, the ability to digitally burn the transport streams, and full internet access on each system, games, etc -- really cool on the 42inch plasma) and I almost forgot -- no monthly fees or lifetime fee or contract. This is from someone who was an early adopter, advocate and fierce defender of Tivo. The love is gone, I have moved on. Wow..I never thought I would be saying this ....


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## lindylicious (Dec 12, 2006)

Is the TiVo box under warranty as long as you're under contract?


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

lindylicious said:


> Is the TiVo box under warranty as long as you're under contract?


The way the terms read, if you buy a tivo box from tivo and activate it under the one of the current contract options, your tivo will be considered under a PARTS ONLY warranty until the contract is over. You'll still be responsible for paying their flat rate labor fee for any repairs needed after the 90 days.


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## wmm_16 (Jul 10, 2003)

I can say that I would not buy one today.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

megazone said:


> Today'[s pricing is better than when I bought my box in 2002. The total cost is lower and today's boxes are better. Sure, I couldn't buy lifetime today, but instead I'd buy 3-years prepaid, no problem.


This is ONLY true if you don't value lifetime and if you know you want a three year term. The premise of the poll is, if you were buying for the first time today, would you buy under this pricing model.

Perhaps your experiences are vastly different than mine megazone. But in my experience, most people trying a new technology want to test the waters before committing to lengthy contracts. Most people I know who did not purchase lifetime (when available) wanted a month-to-month option at a decent price to try it out before committing. I can't think of a single friend, family member or business associate that would prefer this plan over the prior plans.

And, as I've argued many times and no need to do so here at any length, people like me just refuse to enter into yet another transaction with open-ended never ending payment obligations. Perhaps its because I come from a blue-collar background where my parents were poor for most of my childhood and my grandparents barely had anything. With few exceptions I don't purchase products or services unless I have the resources at hand to pay for it. I have never ran up a credit card bill in my life, for instance. If I can't afford something now, I simply don't buy it.

I have never agreed to "free" cell phones with 2-year commitments. I always pay full price for the phone so I can leave the cell phone plan at ANY time. I paid full price for my first 30 hour TiVo $1200 plus lifetime when I first bought it and again with my S3. I don't mind spending large amounts of money for something I want but I refuse to enter into a contract that requires me to make payments forever. When I buy a car, I buy in cash. Or, when I have financed, I've only done it with the right to pay off the outstanding amount at any time.

Clearly those that are happy with today's pricing models have a very different mind set and life experiences from mine, those of my family and circle of friends.

...Dale


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## megazone (Mar 3, 2002)

I bought lifetime within the first 30 days of getting my first box - I was unemployed at the time and $199 was a significant chunk of change. But I recognized the value right away. When I got my first cell phone I signed a 2-year contract on the spot for the best rates.

You have a 30-day window to return the box and cancel to get your money back. So you can sign up for 3-years, and if you don't like it 29 days in, cancel. So you can have your month trial and the low pricing.

If it were me, today, never having used TiVo - just based on the public info I wouldn't blink at 3-years. Of course, I'm not unemployed either, and I didn't blink at buying an S3.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

I wouldn't buy today because of the history of price increases and the inability to shield against them with lifetime service. 

I just hope when I can't get analog OTA anymore I can sell off my lifetime boxes to someone that can use them with cable and by then IPTV will be available or perhaps I will finally break down and put a PC in the living room...


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## ARareToy (Dec 22, 2006)

Well being someone who just signed up to a S2DT TIVO with a 3/yr prepaid plan, I will explain why I ponyed up the cash. Sorry for all the numbers about to be crunched again, but this is how I'm viewing it.

I forked out the prepayment 3 year plan and $70 for a S2DT TIVO. I break that down as $8.30/mo for the service, and $1.94 each month for the box ( $70/ 36 months), that makes the TIVO cost to me $10.24 a month for 3 years. 

I already have a brand new 300GB harddrive (7200rpm, 16MB buffer, Fluid bering motor) that I plan on installing into the unit once that 90 day labor warrenty runs out. Now before someone says I need to figure in the cost of the bigger hard drive, I traded my skill set ( a weekends worth of work) for it. So I am not counting that into my monthly costs.

In my area of Washington State, Comcast has just recently they have enabled their DVR's in my area at $11.95 a month. Yeah, that's only $1.71 savings per month. But that's still $61.56 in 3 years.

I do not have digital cable because there are only 5 channels in the digital line up I'd watch on a regular basis and for the extra $61.24 a MONTH, I can't justify having it. I live in an apartment and you can't recieve ANYTHING with rabbit ears, so that makes the fact of the S2DT not being able to record OTA signals moot. It would of been very cool to have gotten a lifetime subscription for $299 but like most things in my life, I've arrived just a bit late to the dance.

In 3 years, I will revist the issue of whether or not TIVO is still a good deal for me. By then, I may have upgraded to a HD capable TV, and may even own a home. 

Oh yeah... my apartment complex doesn't allow satellite dishes even if you don't have it mounted to their building. But that's a gripe for another time and place.


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## dwarner (Feb 14, 2003)

BlackBetty said:


> I can honestly say that it would have scared me silly looking at the current payment structor. I probably would have said screw it and looked at current cable offerings instead.


When I bought my first Tivo, there were no anternatives, except, possibly ReplayTV. Even though this was a technology I had been waiting years for, I doubt I would have bought it if faced with a monthly fee. The lifetime sub made it an easy decision for me.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

People always neglect to consider the programming fee cable providers charge for their DVR. For instance, in my service area, Charter charges $12 rental fee + $9 programming fee. Thats $21 per month for the DVR, not $12. Even so, there's no up-front cost or commitment with a cable co DVR so that's a worthy consideration. On the other hand, you own the TiVo box and it has resale value. Using the pre-pay option makes the TiVo subscription work out to much less than the overall monthly cable co DVR fee. To me, TiVo is a better option. I don't like monthly fees.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

ARareToy said:


> Oh yeah... my apartment complex doesn't allow satellite dishes even if you don't have it mounted to their building. But that's a gripe for another time and place.


Not to mention that such a restriction is likely overridden by the FCC rule on the subject.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

ARareToy said:


> I do not have digital cable because there are only 5 channels in the digital line up I'd watch on a regular basis and for the extra $61.24 a MONTH, I can't justify having it.


And I guess you didn't expect that to change in the next 3 years?


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## ARareToy (Dec 22, 2006)

MighTiVo said:


> And I guess you didn't expect that to change in the next 3 years?


Yes. I did take that into consideration too.

Out of all the channels listed in the basic digital package, the only channels that interest me are: BBC America, The science channel, G4, NFL network and History International. The do me no good. BYU TV.. that's great if I had gone to BYU for college. All the High Def channels do me no good without an HD television.

Now if I went up to a more expensive package, like Digital silver, then there would be more than 5 channels I'd watch plus possibility of other channels. But then I'd need two or three DVR's to record those additional channels. That would cost even more for the bigger digital package and additional DVRs. I don't think I could justify spending $220 a month on TV.

I look at TIVO like any other item. It either fits your budget/lifestyle or another solution works better. For now, this solution works for me.


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## ARareToy (Dec 22, 2006)

dswallow said:


> Not to mention that such a restriction is likely overridden by the FCC rule on the subject.


Ahhhh I fought the landlord on that one. So the b**t*rd turned around and planted a bunch of trees and did some landscaping to block any line of sight I'd have from my apartment.

There are some fights worth fighting for, and then there are some it's just not worth the effort. I'd rather save the money I'd use to fight their rule and use it for a down payment on a place of my own where I can do almost anything I please to it.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

MighTiVo said:


> And I guess you didn't expect that to change in the next 3 years?


Also to go along with that most cable companies require digital cable in order to get the cable DVR. For me at home that is a $15 or so upgrade to just go from standard to digital cable and at school I want to say the price is now up to around $12 extra per month. So even if the OP (OP of this mini thread I guess you can call it) changes their mind in a year or two they will be saving the cost difference between the standard lineup price and the digital price.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

ARareToy said:


> I do not have digital cable because there are only 5 channels in the digital line up I'd watch on a regular basis and for the extra $61.24 a MONTH, I can't justify having it.


I just re-read this post after my last post and it is $61.24/month extra for digital? Please tell me you currently have the basic of basic cables right now which is like a max of 20 or so channels, most of them being the big network. Digital cable total for my area is about $61.24, let alone an extra $61.24.


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

Fascinating debate.

While it's true the 3 year pre-pay is a very good deal, excepting the issue of the analog shutoff, what we're dealing with here is psychology.

Other posters have pointed out they spend more on lunch, more at Starbucks, more whatever.

However, what I suspect is really going on is - Tivo is an impulse purchase. In other words, if someone sees it as a few bucks a month, they're likely to buy.

If someone ses it as more than a few bucks a month, and a commitment is required, they're less likely to say 'let's try it,' regardless of whether that decision is rational.

Couple that with a second point, that Tivo now competes with something like 'free,' MCE, Beyond TV, etc., and the price point is too high.

iTunes is the classic model: it charged for what people were getting free, and succeeded only because it was so much better, and only incidentally costly. Tivo has walked over the line, IMHO, from 'incidental.'

Final thought: as other posters have correctly pointed out, the cable companies will stop feeding analog cable in a few years, and instead offer only a d to a converter. Time-Warner in my area is already within a couple of dollars of analog being as pricey as digital.

Scott A.


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## Dajad (Oct 7, 1999)

Scott Atkinson said:


> Fascinating debate.
> Final thought: as other posters have correctly pointed out, the cable companies will stop feeding analog cable in a few years, and instead offer only a d to a converter. Time-Warner in my area is already within a couple of dollars of analog being as pricey as digital.
> 
> Scott A.


So? set-tops will always have analogue outs and the means to control them via an IR-blaster. Current S1 and S2 users will not be hurt/limited by the conversion to digital. And for the few recording analogue/OTA only, the government is going to subsidize them with a box that will likely be less than $100 that their TiVo will be able to control and record off of.

...Dale


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## ARareToy (Dec 22, 2006)

Einselen said:


> I just re-read this post after my last post and it is $61.24/month extra for digital? Please tell me you currently have the basic of basic cables right now which is like a max of 20 or so channels, most of them being the big network. Digital cable total for my area is about $61.24, let alone an extra $61.24.


I have what they call Expanded basic cable. Basic cable here is your first 13 channels for like $14. So expanded basic runs me $50. I just called Comcast to reverify my numbers. What they told me was I'd be paying an additional $30 since I was already a expanded basic cable. So it's not a $61.24 as their website was making it seem like. To get the digital cable for $61.24, I'd have to cancel my expanded cable account and set up a new digital cable account. Setting up a new cable account would also incur a one time setup fee as well. But in regard to the price error, I do apologize. That's still only for their entry level package which has channels I just wouldn't watch.

I understand what the gentleman, who was asking if I had factored in that I would watch more digital if I had a S3 box, was inferring. If you TIVO'd more digital programming I'd watch more, hence a Series 3 machine would of been a safer bet.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

Dajad said:


> So? set-tops will always have analogue outs and the means to control them via an IR-blaster. Current S1 and S2 users will not be hurt/limited by the conversion to digital. And for the few recording analogue/OTA only, the government is going to subsidize them with a box that will likely be less than $100 that their TiVo will be able to control and record off of.


The Series 2 Dual Tuner would basically become a single tuner unit if all the analog channels went away on a cable system.


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## CraigHB (Dec 24, 2003)

Interestingly, my cable provider (Charter) is charging $40 for the basic digital package and $48.50 for expanded basic. Expanded basic would be all the analog channels below 99. The basic digital package requires a STB and includes those channels plus a subset of the channels above 99.


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## Bondelev-1 (Nov 27, 2005)

Lifetime service was the deal-maker for Tivo over Sattelite DVR. If I have to pay a monthly fee, I'd rather get one that records in native MPEG and has two tuners and two outputs and HD.


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## Scott Atkinson (Jan 19, 2004)

Dajad said:


> So? set-tops will always have analogue outs and the means to control them via an IR-blaster. Current S1 and S2 users will not be hurt/limited by the conversion to digital. And for the few recording analogue/OTA only, the government is going to subsidize them with a box that will likely be less than $100 that their TiVo will be able to control and record off of.
> 
> ...Dale


Maybe I'm missing your point, but I think we're saying the same thing. Cable is already 'converting' analog customers to digital by raising the price point, (and as you correctly point out, the digital box will work with existing S1/S2 series). Cable is eager to reclaim the space it's now using for analog, and will either meet the FCC deadline for OTA dropping analog, or beat it by a little.

s.


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## SRDOW (Dec 25, 2006)

Maybe someone can tell me where I'm going wrong here. 

My two year old Tivo S2 dies this week. I consider replacing it with a S2 DT, but I just can't buy a new one without a minimum 1 year commitment? And my price jumps from 12.95 to 19.95? And after a year is up, I still pay $19.95 a month?

In the two years I've owned this TIVO, I'll be fair, it 's really changed the way I watch TV but it's always been a compromise. From the elusive wireless adapter that took weeks to find and then never really worked very well, the wiring project to directly connect it to my network to try make it work better (100 year old house, long story), the goofy usb to ethernet connector that keeps getting knocked loose, to the poor quality picture (as compared to live TV), etc, etc. And now after only two years, it's dead from a hard drive failure. I was willing to forgive and buy another, until I saw the pricing structure.

So why should I not call my cable provider and get thier DVR? Fifteen dollars a month and it records In HD. And, If I don't like it in 6 months or they come up with something better, I can give it back, no questions asked. Am I truly missing something here?


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## Shawn95GT (Oct 7, 2005)

Not from Tivo...

If you buy a new box retail / second hand I believe you can switch the TSNs in manage my account and nothing changes aother than you have a shiney new box.


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## kupe (Apr 10, 2003)

JJ said:


> Today with the higher fees, no lifetime option and no multi-box discount


AFAIK, there is still the multi-box discount. Is this not what you're talking about:
http://www.tivo.com/5.11.4.asp

Kupe


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## BlackBetty (Nov 6, 2004)

look at what I created! I am so proud of myself


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## Sandlapper (Oct 26, 2003)

I voted no, but I think the average consumer loves "low monthly payment's" instead of paying a larger fee up front.


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

johndierks said:


> I think the problem is that Tivo shouldn't ever have been a product that is sold under a subscription model. I don't pay monthly service fees for my car...


I could of sworn that falls under the term "fuel" 



Justin Thyme said:


> Sony and Pioneer haven't done any better with their DVRs. The Sony dual CC DVR is no longer manufactured. Does that mean that Sony is incompetent?


Nope...I think Sony is incompetent due to their desire for to be proprietary.

Betamax, MD, Memory Stick, then of course there's the rootkit fiasco..."

Kind of puts a damper on whether to get an S3 or a PS3 



volswagn said:


> Yes, Sony is incompetent. The last truly revolutionary hit product they had was the Walkman.


I think the MD could have been very successful if they had marketed it as the floppy disc replacement and pit it agaist the Iomega Zip...

Most ppl I know buy Sony, because all the stuff they have is Sony, regardless of actual quality (or lack of it)



Scott Atkinson said:


> Fascinating debate.
> 
> iTunes is the classic model: it charged for what people were getting free, and succeeded only because it was so much better, and only incidentally costly. Tivo has walked over the line, IMHO, from 'incidental.'


Yeah...an iPod holds 10k songs...at a $1/song...that's $10k. Doesn't seem that much with such a small increment - not that anyone has 10,000 songs on their playlist


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## DeathRider (Dec 30, 2006)

As far as my answer...

I went down to my younger brother's house in Va. Loved trying out his TiVo... So I purchased an ST S2 for $150 after MIR. Paid $299 for the lifetme.

I have RCN in Ma. My landlord pays for cable. Actually pays for the digitalVisionPlus. 
http://www.rcn.com/cabletv/lineupDetails.php?lineupID=12

Don't care for the composite only output of the STB, but I'm never home, so recording my shows while away is great. Going through the Guide while away is great. I once set it to record a show @7:45pm that was to start @8:00pm, and it worked! (I was 250 miles away).

I remember a Panasonic VCR that could be plugged into the phone line and you could call in and set it to record a show.

Last time i went down to see my younger brother, he had a cable supplied DVR. Didn't care for it, would rather have a TiVo, but TiVo didn't have an HD box available.

I was on the fence for getting a S3 and tried calling my brother for advice, but it's hard getting ahold of him.

My older brother recently got a HDTV (actually a monitor). So, he opted for the HD DVR, since it was only a few dollars more than the HD STB.

The Moto DVR is slow, the remote is sluggish, the sound cuts out at times and you have to switch the channel then return to get it back [HDMI]. HDD is startig to crash.

*[edit]
One other thing with his present Moto DVR. I went into the menu and unchecked all the channels he doesn't receive. After going through it, the channel guide still displays them anyway. WTH?
[/edit]*

RCN, you don't have to go digital to go HD

http://www.rcn.com/hdtv/index.php

My Westy 3213 I purchased from best Buy on Black Friday has a QAM tuner, so I get most the free HD channels - just not HDNET, HDnetMOV, Discovery HD Theatre:
http://www.rcn.com/hdtv/index.php

So, it would be tough if I didn't have the option to transfer the LT from the S2 to the S3.

One thing some have pointed out:

With a TiVo, even if you cancel, you still keep the content in your box. With a Cable DVR, you don't. Of course, I could always buy a small Shuttle box, install a tuner card and run MythTV...


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## chrishicks (Dec 31, 2003)

as a person looking to buy into Tivo after being with DirecTV and the DTivo the price point is a bit overwelming. I don't mind monthly fees to an extent but if I wanted to have 3 Tivos in my house that would cost me what, 30.00+ a month after the prepaid subs run out? 

I currently subscribe to both DTV as well as Comcast and have 2 DTivos, a DVD recorder with an HDD/w TVGuide Plus and an HTPC with a single tuner to record from Comcast. 

having both DTV and Comcast was a cool bragging thing when I was younger but now I want to simply ditch one and gain some extra money. I would like to get an S3 and 2 DTS2s and just stick with Comcast. now I pay 100.00 for my service(Comcast) which includes all premium channels plus HDTV. DirecTV is another 100.00 or so a month.

I would've liked to get 3 units with Lifetime on each but now that would most likely cost me a small fortune as I want 3 dual tuner boxes. I know I can pay 1300.00 for a Lifetimed S3 but what about 2 DTS2s? I simply cannot pay up to or possibly over 3500.00 for 3 Lifetime DT boxes. 

so my only reasonable price option it seems is - I buy an S3 with a 3yr. plan for around 1000.00 and then what? do I buy 2 DTS2s from tivo.com with the 3yr. plan for 370.00-470.00 a unit? or do I go to a store like Best Buy and buy the [email protected] outright, deal with the possibilty of not actually getting my rebate and paying an additional 15.00/month for the 2 boxes?


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## bareyb (Dec 1, 2000)

Unfortunately I've had the extreme displeasure of using the cable DVR box and I'm ashamed to say I will pay whatever TiVo asks to keep them in business and providing my only real option for a DVR. TV is the one thing I own that I use every day. I work hard and am not at all adverse to paying whatever amount of money I need to in order to enjoy TV at it's fullest potential. I bought two TiVo S3's just a couple months ago and paid for three years in advance so my monthly bill is only $6.95 per box if I recall correctly. That's nothing. I spend more than that going to the Movies once.


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