# S3, 9.1, and 2nd Cable Card Function thread.



## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

This has been posted about in another thread, but I thought I would start a new one to keep this specific issue here. Please post if you are also seeing this issue.

Since getting the new 9.1 software, I've been having problems with my 2nd Cable Card.

Both cards are Scientific Atlanta, and I am in a Comcast system (former Adelphia) in Western PA. I have had the S3 since last December, and have not had any issues prior to the new 9.1 roll out, with both Cards functioning just fine once Comcast got the correct billing codes on my account.

The Problem: Specifically, the 2nd Cable Card/tuner will suddenly NOT display anything other than Analog channels. This includes any "In the clear" QAM channels such as my local HD Channels which I know for certain are not encrypted. I then have to reboot the TiVo to correct. The period of time until the issue occurs again is sporadic, and today it only took about 5 hours from the time I reset the TiVo until I had to reset it again.

This has occured every day since I received the 9.1 software (10/03).

This is EXTREMELY annoying, as there is no way for me to know which tuner will be used for a Season Pass, and if this occurs the TiVo will act as if it is correctly recording the SP, but the actual recording will be blank.

Also, all of the diagnostic information for the Channel, cable Card, etc appears OK. THere is just no picture or audio.

As I say, if you are seeing this issue, could you please post to this thread?

Also, if you have any ideas for a solution, please let me know. I'm very afraid that this is going to require an update from TiVo to fix, and that is not likely to be relatively quickly. I don't know how an issue like this got through TiVos QC tests...

Barry


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## old64mb (Apr 11, 2005)

I'm not sure this is a 9.1 issue; sounds more like your second tuner is dying slowly and may just have coincidentally done so more obviously at the time you upgraded. The second tuner issue has been documented many times elsewhere (I had it about a year ago), although the fact you're getting analog on it is a little odd. It's not unusual that you'll still get channel diagnostic information on it, though.

I'd pop out the cablecard to confirm that it's not an encryption issue and then set up an RMA - usually easier to do so once CS can't blame anything but their own unit.


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## dubluv (Mar 3, 2006)

2nd cc is losing some channels after 9.1 update on my tivoHD. i dont think this is a tuner issue, but i don t know for sure.


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## legendarybc (Dec 17, 2006)

My S3 (TWC, SA CC's) did the same thing after the 9.1 update-- no channels on CC 2 other than clear QAM. It was fixed after a reboot and has not repeated since. One thing I noticed-- no EMM's or ECM's on that card while this problem was occurring. I chalked it up to a Cable Company screw up and bad timing. But, it may not just be a coincidence...


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## robm15 (Feb 23, 2004)

legendarybc said:


> My S3 (TWC, SA CC's) did the same thing after the 9.1 update-- no channels on CC 2 other than clear QAM. It was fixed after a reboot and has not repeated since. One thing I noticed-- no EMM's or ECM's on that card while this problem was occurring. I chalked it up to a Cable Company screw up and bad timing. But, it may not just be a coincidence...


I had exactly the same problem, no premimum channels on CC2, but I did get Clear QAM channels. I called comcast, and she said she could see in the system were the CC2 (Per the card id number) was not subscribing. She could only subscribe it by adding a new $5.10 charge to it like it was a new box.  The instant she did that, it started working again. I don't understand it, and I plan to stop by my local comcast store this week and find out what is going on, and if I'm going to have to pay $5.10 for 2nd cable cards now. I'm a little concerned because I just got a Tivo HD this weekend, and now I have to pay $5.10 per cable card?? I sure hope not.


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## dtivotom (Dec 10, 2003)

I have the same problem with the second card not working on the digital channels after the 9.1 upgrade. It will start working again if I reboot, but I have missed several season pass shows when I try to record 2 digital channels at the same time. I am in Indianapolis and I have Brighthouse cable. Since this problem started at the same time for me and bguzik, with the new 9.1 update (never had a problem before).


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## old64mb (Apr 11, 2005)

robm15 said:


> I had exactly the same problem, no premimum channels on CC2, but I did get Clear QAM channels. I called comcast, and she said she could see in the system were the CC2 (Per the card id number) was not subscribing.


I stand (probably) corrected about the tuner going bad, but I'd also -strongly- advise trying to pull the cable card at fault and isolating the issue to a tuner or cable card before either calling the cable co or Tivo. It's an awful lot easier to get something done when they can't point fingers at each other, which knowing both, they do a lot.


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## dubluv (Mar 3, 2006)

legendarybc said:


> My S3 (TWC, SA CC's) did the same thing after the 9.1 update-- no channels on CC 2 other than clear QAM. It was fixed after a reboot and has not repeated since.  One thing I noticed-- no EMM's or ECM's on that card while this problem was occurring. I chalked it up to a Cable Company screw up and bad timing. But, it may not just be a coincidence...


please tell me what emm's and ecm's are?


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## avmike (Jun 12, 2007)

Everyone, please make sure that you call this issue into Tivo. I did yesterday and the rep sounded like it was the first he had heard of the problem. I also reported two other issues related to the 9.1 software:

Fluctuating volume within programs
Difficulty rewinding (slow) and resulting lip synch issues

The rep said these two issues were known issues.

Mike


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

dubluv said:


> please tell me what emm's and ecm's are?


EMM's are Entitlement Management Messages - They are what tells the cablecard what it is 'entitled' to decrypt

ECM's are Entitlement Control Messages - They are embedded with the stream and control decryption.


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## Austin_Martin (Sep 13, 2006)

Ugh, I've been getting this for the past week or so. Didn't think anything of it the first time, but after the third no record I was wondering. Can someone ask TIVO if there is any way they can restore the earlier software code? This is very annoying as my machine was working fine up to this.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

I posted in the original thread as well. I have the exact same issues as the OP: CC2 going blank for HD channels.
The first time I noticed it I called TWC. They made me pull the Scientific Atlantic card and they reinitiated it. All was fine. Two days later: same CC again blank. This time I just rebooted the S3 and all was fine. Next time it was blank I got channels back by just channel surfing and/or Testing Channels in CC menu.


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## bshughes657 (Oct 19, 2006)

I have been seeing the same issue with my S3 since the 9.1 upgrade. I have had this unit since last September with absolutely no issues. After the 9.1 upgrade, the 2nd card will not display anything but analog channels. Very annoying, as with the original poster I have lost several season pass programs, because the front panel says it is recording something but it is not. Wow cable, southeastern Michigan. After reading these posts< I have to believe it is the update and not the tuner or the cable card. I sure hope Tivo recognizes this problem and fixes it quickly.


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## Bostonlawman2003 (Sep 22, 2005)

Same problem here in Boston with Comcast, months and months of flawless operation, now this! Extremely frustrating! Hoping for a quick resolution.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Same here in Birmingham, AL. Got 9.1 Sat, noticed this Sunday. Reboot fixed problem. Noticed it yesterday and thought it was just my inept CableCo again. Apparently not.

Edit: This is a huuuuge problem. It effectively makes the Tivo fairly unuseable since you never know what tuner something will be recorded on. This might be the first time I simply can't trust my Tivo.

Double Edit: SA CC's with Brighthouse networks.


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## AaRdVarK3 (Aug 12, 2003)

Same here in Charlottesville, VA. CC2 can see everything. CC1 gets no digital channels, just analog. I'm with Comcast (ex-Adelphia) and have SA Cablecards.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

Similar issue here, I guess. It was recording one HD channel, but when I tried to tune any other, only black screen came up. It was recording on "tuner 0", but I don't know which CC was using it (I'm guessing #2, based on what others here are writing). 

But now the TiVo (Series 3) just froze when I went into "Test Channels" under CC1 settings. Before, it was showing the same info under "Diagnostics" no matter which CC I chose.

I will reboot now and hopefully that'll fix it.

EDIT 1: reboot did fix it. I hope it stays fixed, although people seem to have it come back . I was away this weekend, if I had been away longer I would have been pretty pissed to have missed a bunch of recordings.

EDIT 2: I have Scientific Atlanta CableCARDs.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Just to note, it was actually CC1 on my box that was not working for anything but analog when I saw the issue.


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## Dr_Diablo (Nov 24, 2003)

bguzik said:


> This has been posted about in another thread, but I thought I would start a new one to keep this specific issue here. Please post if you are also seeing this issue.
> 
> Since getting the new 9.1 software, I've been having problems with my 2nd Cable Card.
> 
> ...


Same problems since 9.1 upgrade...

Cable company to replace both cards, an determine from there what the next course of action will be...

returning to DirecTV if Tivo can not solve these ongoing issues SOON...


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## Thos19 (Dec 31, 2002)

Bostonlawman2003 said:


> Same problem here in Boston with Comcast, months and months of flawless operation, now this! Extremely frustrating! Hoping for a quick resolution.


Same here in Abington, MA. Comcast, 2 SA cards which previously now problems. Now Card #2 keeps losing all channels necessitating a reboot. Strange periodic pixelation/stutter during live tv and recorded playback.

Been lucky before, first time I've had any noticeable problems with the S3 

Thos


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

Thos19 said:


> Same here in Abington, MA. Comcast, 2 SA cards which previously now problems. Now Card #2 keeps losing all channels necessitating a reboot. Strange periodic pixelation/stutter during live tv and recorded playback.
> 
> Been lucky before, first time I've had any noticeable problems with the S3
> 
> Thos


Can anyone confirm (or deny) that this is just SA cards? It seems like everyone who noted card type above indicated SA? Anybody with Motorola cards experiencing this?

The specific symptom is that 1 of the two cable cards will only give a blank screen and no audio. It seems to me after further troubleshooting that the problem occurs when one of the cards begins to record a show, and then I try to switch to the other tuner. In which case the screen is completely blank. (except for Analog channels which work just fine...) Diagnostics seem to show both cards functioning fine...including EMM, ECM, and CCI...

Reboot fixes the problem temporarily. It should be noted, that in my case, ONLY analog channels work when the issue arises. My Clear-QAM HD channels (actually it seems ANY QAM channel) just shows a blank screen. This includes the music channels which are sent in the clear too. I can watch/listen to them anytime on my other TV without Cable Card...so I know there is no encryption on them.

Barry


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## Peter000 (Apr 15, 2002)

I'm not sure what kind of CCs I have. But mine are acting very strangely... Slot 1 seems to be working, aside from a few missing HD channels. Slot 2 Seems to be working, UNLESS I go into diagnostics and check it. "Test Channels" show no channels available. The Diag screen shows mostly zeros for all readings. And shows a "today's date" of Jan 1, 2006.

But, I can record on one HD channel, and surf or record another. Just strange. It's almost as if Slot 1 is acting as a dual card.

I have TW NYC

EDIT: Rebooting seemed to solve the issue for now. But it seemed a reboot started the issue, too. (I was goofing around with the OTA antenna and accidentally unplugged the Series 3.


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## gguillot (Sep 22, 2003)

I have been experiencing this problem for months, not just since the 9.1 upgrade. Series 3 with two Scientific Atlanta M cards. Swapped for new cablecards several times, placed amplifier on the cable line. Neither Tivo nor the cable company can figure out what is wrong. Signal on HD channels go out, only grey screen. Got to reboot to get the channels back. There is no pattern to the problem - it happens on all HD channels at any time of the day, but always within 24 hours of rebooting the Tivo. Tivo's only solution is for me to pay them $49 to send my unit back in for a refurb unit - even that is not guaranteed to fix the problem. Welcome to my level of Tivo cablecard hell.....


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## wgw (May 16, 2007)

Suggestion to fix blank channel problem:

1. Power cycle all cable boxes in the house if you still have any cable boxes. (Power cycle = pull the plug, wait 1 minute, plug it back in)

2. Power cycle all Tivo's with cable cards. (do a power cycle, not a restart)

3. Wait 20 minutes for all cable devices to re-initialize.

4. Repeat Guided setup.

Please post results.

This fixes the problem for me and lasts 1-3 weeks before steps 1 & 2 have to be repeated. I simply power cycle all my cable devices every Tuesday before any channels have a chance to go blank again. Power cycling just the Tivo did not work for me. I had to power cycle both the cable box and the Tivo's. This has worked for me ever since the problem started after my first cable card install last March.


My equipment:
1 Motorola DCT6200/1000 HDTV cable box.
2 S3 Tivo's.
4 Motorola Cable Cards.
1 Charter cable company


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

wgw said:


> Suggestion to fix blank channel problem:
> 
> 1. Power cycle all cable boxes in the house if you still have any cable boxes. (Power cycle = pull the plug, wait 1 minute, plug it back in)
> 
> ...


Did all the above yesterday. (I don't have any cable boxes...)

Only my S3 TiVo with Scientific Atlanta Cable Cards. Problem manifested again 5 hours later...


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## fatboy15226 (Feb 19, 2007)

Just another me too post.

Since 9.1 my 1 CC Card goes out with No ECMs in Diagnostics. Happens often and did it on CC1 when I looked.

Argggg.

-dsd


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## Saturn (Apr 10, 2001)

+1. One cable card showed no channels available in the test screen. One showed all 0's in the diagnostics screen. The other showed me all blank channels in the test screen. Both said Auth received.

However, in live TV at least one of the cards was working. I didn't futz with it too much to determine which card was actually tuning, but both were messed up because I couldn't test channels with either one.

Rebooted and things went back to normal. I've had this S3 for 10 months with no problems like this and just got 9.1 last week. Lovely.


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## dswartz (Oct 9, 2007)

i guess i'll find out how well this works wednesday, when the vz installer shows up...


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## miller890 (Feb 15, 2002)

I am experiencing the same problem here where 2nd CC looses sync; however, I am only experiencing the problem on one of my two Series-3 units.

Unit seeing the 2nd CC sync problem:
S3 with version 9.1
Original internal hard drive
*Added eSATA external added with 750 DB35 
SA S-cards*
TWC (cable direct from 4way main splitter *+ 2way going to S3 & S2DT*)

Unit *NOT* seeing the 2nd CC problem:
S3 with version 9.1
Original internal hard drive
*SA M-cards*
TWC (cable direct from 4way main splitter)

Prior to 9.1, I had only lost sync once when TWC switched a number of pacific primium channes to SDV. Now 2nd CC on the one unit looses sync every couple days after doing a S3 reboot to re-sync things.


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

miller890 said:


> I am experiencing the same problem here where 2nd CC looses sync; however, I am only experiencing the problem on one of my two Series-3 units.
> 
> Unit seeing the 2nd CC sync problem:
> S3 with version 9.1
> ...


That is interesting. I believe a few others have indicated eSATA drives too.

I wonder if there is some kind of bug with SA cards and eSATA drives... Too early to tell...but worth thinking about.

Since you have M cards in one (working) and S cards in the other (problem unit), that could also make a difference. In my case they are S cards..

Barry

Barry


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## boblip11 (Oct 6, 2005)

bguzik said:


> That is interesting. I believe a few others have indicated eSATA drives too.
> 
> I wonder if there is some kind of bug with SA cards and eSATA drives... Too early to tell...but worth thinking about.
> 
> ...


Add me to the list of people with the problem. I had no issues before 9.1

I have ESATA, SA Cards


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Misery loves company.

Misery also loves it when someone from Tivo says they are aware and working on the problem and a fix is imminent..


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

dig_duggler said:


> Misery loves company.
> 
> Misery also loves it when someone from Tivo says they are aware and working on the problem and a fix is imminent..


Has misery actually heard that from Tivo? And from a reliable source? (certainly not a CSR).


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## pfibiger (Apr 24, 2007)

I'm having this issue (blackouts on one cc, reboot fixes), and in addition last night during heroes/chuck i lost all audio during the recording, though a reboot brought audio back to the channel. I have SA cable cards, but my tivo's bone stock, no eSATA drives. I will call Tivo this morning when they open to let them know I'm seeing this problem.


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## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

Same exact issue here in the Raleigh, NC area with Time Warner Cable and my Series 3. I missed recording Heroes last night. Argh!!


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

ncbagwell said:


> Same exact issue here in the Raleigh, NC area with Time Warner Cable and my Series 3. I missed recording Heroes last night. Argh!!


Thank goodness I get my broadcast network stuff OTA or I really be torqued.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

SCSIRAID said:



> Has misery actually heard that from Tivo? And from a reliable source? (certainly not a CSR).


Misery has not and is becoming impatient with the matter...


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

dig_duggler said:


> Misery has not and is becoming impatient with the matter...


LOL...

Tivo S3... the ultimate Love-Hate relationship...


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

SCSIRAID said:


> Tivo S3... the ultimate Love-Hate relationship...


Isn't that the truth... :up:


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## NCC2893 (Mar 4, 2007)

I have two Series 3 boxes, and both are exhibiting this behavior. Both started within 12 hours of getting the update. I'm with TWC.

Box 1: Series 3, eSata expansion drive, SA S Cards
Box 1 : Series 3, original drive, SA S Cards


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

There is always the possibility that we all had "Wrong"SA CableCARD installations that "shouldn't" have been working and 9.1 simply made the TiVo CC Function work the way it's supposed to.

Which in turn "broke" our "incorrect" installations...

I still have to say upfront that anyone experiencing this issue should make sure that everything looks "right" on the CableCARD CP Auth screen: Authorized, PowerKey Ready, and at least 30 or more EMMs.

If you're not showing EMMs (Entitlement Management Messages), then the CableCARDs can't know what channels you are authorized to receive...(just an example of something which could be another cause of the issue)...

Just a thought...


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## davedonohue (Oct 20, 2004)

FWIW, I just got off the phone with TiVo tech support and they informed me that enough people have called in that it is now a "known issue" with 9.1 and that they hope to have a fix within a week or so. The tech was candid in that he'd taken a few calls himself on it and implied that there were some other bugs in 9.1 that needed to be worked out.

He said that rebooting is the only way to fix it for now.

I'm in Charlottesville, VA, on Comcast with SA cards.


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## TracySMiller (Oct 14, 2002)

ncbagwell said:


> Same exact issue here in the Raleigh, NC area with Time Warner Cable and my Series 3. I missed recording Heroes last night. Argh!!


Me. too, here in Kingsport, TN. I missed Hereoes, Journeyman, and Curb Your Enthusiasm last night due to this issue. CableCARD came back after a restart.


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## bkdtv (Jan 9, 2003)

Be sure to call Tivo to let them know you are experiencing the problem.

I suspect Tivo will release an update to address this issue in the next month or so, possibly when they enable TTG / MRV in November.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

bkdtv said:


> Be sure to call Tivo to let them know you are experiencing the problem.
> 
> I suspect Tivo will release an update to address this issue in the next month or so, possibly when they enable TTG / MRV in November.


I'd hope it's before Nov. This bug is a showstopper. Literally.


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## ScratchFury (Feb 12, 2005)

I also have this problem. I have TWC and eSATA drive. I have to reboot everyday to fix this. I missed House and didn't know it!


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## Myphsto (Oct 22, 2002)

I'm also having this issue with SA cable cards and Time Warner cable in WI. What is different for me is after rebooting tivo to fix the issue, I get a random card which stops allowing digital channels. Today it was CC1, yesterday it was CC2 which had a problem. 

Seems 9.1 is to blame, this NEVER happened before my service upgrade and started happening they day I got the upgrade. I don't see how both of my cards work fine after a tivo restart for a time, and at random times stop tuning digital channels until a restart.


I also have a external SATA drive btw.


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

FYI...too early to tell for sure yet...BUT...

I called TiVo to report this issue, and the CSR "CableCARD" rep asked me to call Comcast and have them reset my CableCARDS.

I tried to explain that I only wanted to get Comcast involved as a last resort, as my System in Western PA is a former Adelphia System, just having been taken over by Comcast. As such, my system uses SA cards while the WHOLE rest of the Western PA Comcast Network is Motorola. I explained the difficulty I had back last December even getting the CableCARDs to work in the first place, and hence my reluctance to involve Comcast screwing with my billing key codes unless it were absolutely necessary.

The TiVo rep said to try anyway....So with reluctance I called Comcast this morning. I was really worried because the rep I spoke with told me right off the bat how "unfamiliar" she was with SA cards! So I took my time and tried to explain the WHOLE history of my account to her, leading up to the latest issue. She took her time, found a qualified supervisor, and they both got ahold of appropriate SA card experts. (They knew I was DEATHLY scared of them screwing up my account, and I specifically asked them NOT to make any changes to my billing codes until they were SURE they knew what they were doing).

Ultimately, they did reset the cards, and everything seems to be still working ok. (Really no different from when I rebooted the TiVo over the last few days)...

So thus far, I have not had to yet reboot the TiVo today. As I say above, it is still too early to tell...but I do know that 4 different shows (both QAM and Analog) have recorded over the last few hours and I have not yet had a repeat of the issue.

I mentioned (a couple of posts above) about checking the CP Screen on your CableCards...they SHOULD look something like this:

Scientific Atlanta CableCARD
CP Information
----------
Auth Status: *CP Auth Received*
Prog Number:*214*
CCI byte: 0x*00*
ECM count: *255*
EMM count: *43*
Decryption status:OK (Or No ECMs Detected) 
PowerKey Status: *Ready*
EID: 0x*0*
MKS period: *2000 seconds*
KSE count: *0*

The CCI byte is the copy protection flag (copy once, copy none, etc) In my case above, I'm currently on a Local HD channel with no flag (0x00). I will usually see 0x02 on channels like HBO (which means "copy once")

The EMM count is important as it is what determines which channels you are entitled to receive (Entitlement Management Messages). This should usually be some number above 30 or so...in my case it's 43 on both cards.

The Decryption status above shows "No ECMs detected" when I copied the settings, because there is no encryption on either of the channels I'm recording at the moment. If I go to a channel like HBO, the ECM count will increase, and that status will change to say "OK" (I think...I can't remember exactly, and I can't switch channels at the moment as both tuners are recording non-encrypted QAM HD locals right now).

So we'll see if this fixes the issue. I guess I should probably know by tomorrow evening...

But if it does fix the problem, then it still begs the question as to what happened?

I suppose it is possible that the 9.1 update did something to the SA card configuration, requiring a reset from the Carrier side. But that is NOT something which should typically occur with a software update IMHO.

Another alternative is that the CC config has actually been "Broken" for a long time, and the 9.1 update revealed that fact somehow by correcting previously "incorrect" TiVo CableCard behavior.

Finally, the last scenario could be that Comcast actually DID screw with my settings at the same time that 9.1 rolled out. But I REALLY doubt this is the issue...it would be exceedingly coincidental to have so many others reporting the exact same issue behavior for that to be the case...

I guess the moral of the story is to check (and double-check) your CP Screen to make sure it looks correct (especially EMMs). If it doesn't try calling your Cable Company and having them reset (re "hit") the cards.

Heck, if you're willing to risk it, call them anyway and have them send out the "hits"... (But I know this option is VERY scary for a lot of folks like me who had a nightmare of a time getting their operator to correctly get the cards working in the first place...)

Barry


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## Saturn (Apr 10, 2001)

I'm no cable card expert, but my EMMs are at 0 and I'm getting all my digital channels just fine for the moment. I suspect the cable cards store the channel authorization data. It is also possible some carriers don't require EMMs for "basic" channels. (I have the basic digital package.)

http://arstechnica.com/guides/other/cablecard.ars/2


> The demodulated, encrypted signal passes from the TV into the CableCARD, which first checks the EMMs to see if the user is authorized to view that channel [b[(basic channels may not require an EMM). [/b]


Also considering that the default configuration for all this DRM/Cablecard encryption stuff is to NOT work at all if something isn't quite right, I can't imagine TiVo had it wrong for the past year and just now "fixed" it.


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## crowfan (Dec 27, 2003)

Just throwing my hat in the ring. I am seeing this issue too.


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## MikeyB (Jan 7, 2005)

Is anyone with this problem *NOT* using SA CCs?


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

Saturn said:


> I'm no cable card expert, but my EMMs are at 0 and I'm getting all my digital channels just fine for the moment. I suspect the cable cards store the channel authorization data. It is also possible some carriers don't require EMMs for "basic" channels. (I have the basic digital package.)
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/guides/other/cablecard.ars/2
> 
> Also considering that the default configuration for all this DRM/Cablecard encryption stuff is to NOT work at all if something isn't quite right, I can't imagine TiVo had it wrong for the past year and just now "fixed" it.


As you indicated, Zero EMM count is not always a problem. The count gets cleared out at times but the cards keep right on working. The number of EMM's a card needs to see to be fully entitled depends on the cableco and what you subscribe to. For me... it takes over 240 EMM's to complete a card. If you look at my cards now... they will say 0 but they are just fine.


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## FLBoy (Oct 10, 2007)

Add me to those experiencing the problem--only in my case it's cable card #1 that exhibits the problem.

I have had my TiVo only a week. It worked perfectly for two days until it was upgraded to 9.1. After that, CC1 has locked up about once per day. Restart temporarily fixes it. I have SA cards.

This is a serious problem that TiVo needs to fix immediately!!


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

bguzik said:


> FYI...too early to tell for sure yet...BUT...
> 
> I called TiVo to report this issue, and the CSR "CableCARD" rep asked me to call Comcast and have them reset my CableCARDS.
> 
> ...


OK, update: Woke up to the problem AGAIN this morning, and had to reboot the TiVo to correct.

So it is NOT a Cable Company issue.

It appears to be a TiVo issue.

Hope they are working on a fix...this is exceedingly frustrating...

Barry


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

The only common element in this as a post-9.1 problem seems to be Scientific Atlanta "S" Cards.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

jlib said:


> The only common element in this as a post-9.1 problem seems to be Scientific Atlanta "S" Cards.


Not completely true, see poll. Also Motorola cards are involved. I have noticed however, that most are either with Comcast or TWC,


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

mvnuenen said:


> Not completely true, see poll. Also Motorola cards are involved. I have noticed however, that most are either with Comcast or TWC,


Poll Results:

Yes, I have this problem and have Scientific Atlanta CCs 38	31.67%
Yes, I have this problem and have Motorola CCs 9 7.50%
No, I have not experienced this problem (I have SA CCs) 15	12.50%
No, I have not experience this problem (I have Moto CCs) 58	48.33%

So...it's not quite as controlled as I'd like (therefore not rock-solid scientific), but IMHO an argument could be made that 7.50% may have some other type of CC issue taking place with their Moto CableCARDs?

However, 31.67% seems a good indication of some kind of SA specific issue for us folks with SA CableCARDs...

Can't speak to the SA "S" card versus "M" card question though...maybe I should post another poll... Lol!

Barry


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

I must admit SA cards are primary suspects. Maybe some of the 15 "no" replies with SA cards have in the mean time experienced problems as well. 

Am I really the only one who suspects an additional role for the cable provider? Someone posted earlier about TWC resetting something every 48 hours... Just can't find the post now... It did seem very suspect to me.


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## philinny (Jan 11, 2004)

Just to chime in -- I had this happen too. Cable card slot #1, SA card, no digital channels. Also, no ESATA upgrade, just the original hard drive. 

I had called Time Warner (West San Fernando Valley - Los Angeles) since I was sure it was their fault (my default position, I admit) then I found this thread. 

Rebooting has fixed it for now...but for how long? 

I called TiVo Customer Service, the CSR had not heard of this issue, checked with a supervisor and had me read off all the CC status screens. They were suggesting that it was not 9.1 that did it. When all screens checked out (authorization received, etc.) they said they would pass to IT department to investigate. 

Suggestion to all -- call TiVo if you have not already to get the message to them of this ongoing problem... 

cheers, 
Phil


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

philinny said:


> Just to chime in -- I had this happen too. Cable card slot #1, SA card, no digital channels. Also, no ESATA upgrade, just the original hard drive.
> 
> I had called Time Warner (West San Fernando Valley - Los Angeles) since I was sure it was their fault (my default position, I admit) then I found this thread.
> 
> ...


I mentioned above that TiVo had asked me to call Comcast and get my cards reset. They said to call back if that didn't fix the problem.

So, I did call back today. It has been escalated. The good news is that it seems the 2nd level support folks are communicating amongst themselves, and they are increasingly hearing about this issue with 9.1. So I'm sure that several cases have been escalated to the Software teams...

As Phil said...PLEASE make sure you call TiVO and log a case number with them. You may have to call back a couple of times to make sure it gets escalated to the Software Teams...

(Oh, and Tier 1 CS reps will likely be less than helpful on this...Tier 1 reps are NOT apparently tracking this. Thats why I say you may have to call back with your incident report and make sure the Tier 1 Rep answering escalates up...)

Barry


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## Austin_Martin (Sep 13, 2006)

I just talked to a tivo rep, and escalated a case to engineering. They have heard all about this problem, and will be sending a patch at some point. They didn't have an estimated time, but from the rep's reaction, they've probably been hearing about this problem a lot.


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## dtivotom (Dec 10, 2003)

I have done some experiments with my S3 Tivo to get the problem to repeat.

It seems that if you have 2 shows that are going to start at the same time and they both use cable cards (digital or HD) and at least one or both of your tuners are using the standard cable tuner before the recording, you will blow one of your cards when the tivo tries to tune two cable cards at the same time.

Manual recordings do not blow the cards. It has to be two season passes or selected recordings due to start at the same time. Also if the tuner does not have to change stations to record, your cards will be ok.

I have moved my Network season passes to the OTA tuner. If I record OTA 6.1 at the same time as 720 HBO, my cards are fine. If I record two cable card show at the same time (start time that is) It will blow card 1.

Rebooting is a temp fix for the card, but that only lasts until you record two cable card shows starting at the same time.

Can someone get this info to the Tivo Programmers?

Thanks
Dtivotom


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## eluckie (Sep 20, 2005)

Count me in on this one. Starting the day after I got the 9.1 update I had several shows that did not record because of no signal. It has happen again tonight and I missed 3 more shows. On mine, it is CC1 that lost signal on the digital channels. CC2 seems to be fine. A reboot corrects the problem. I have a S3 and I am on Knology cable system with SA cards. Prior to this, my CC's had worked almost perfectly since late February!

It is extremely frustrating when you can't count on your TIVO to record the programs thay you have asked it get. Right now, it is truly just a gamble as whether or not the shows you want will be recorded. I am fortunate enough to have a S2 in the same room that I can use as back up, but I really hate watching my shows in SD rather than HD!!!


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## 188 (Oct 15, 1999)

I am having the same issue--a reboot seemed to help, but the unit developed an odd quirk--If I tuned in an HD channel on Tuner 1, and then hit "live tv" to get to the other tuner, and tuned that to an HD channel also, when I swapped back the first tuner was back on an SD channel. the same one it was on originally. Then when I switched to an HD channel and again swapped back, it was on the same SD channel. 

The only way I could get both tuners on HD channels was to start a recording on both!


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## PopcornGuy (Apr 6, 2007)

Seems to be a big problem...Copy of my post from another thread here...



> Experienced the same problem consistently since 9.1 - one card would not retain its ability to tune anything but the "basic" channels for more than a day after receiving a hit from the cable company. I thought this was just a card that had gone bad since it occurred occasionally in the weeks prior. Could also be that I am seeing the problem more now that the fall season is putting more demand on both tuners daily.
> 
> I was running two s-cards in my S3. I called the cable company and ordered two m-cards to use instead (after confiming here that the m-card is handled as an s-card in the older S3 Tivo and that I would need two). Several reasons for going with the m-card over replacing the one bad s-card though some or all may not be valid: newer technology is better than the older, m-cards would still work if one data stream went bad (just my logic, nothing to back this up), 9.1 is the first major revision since the HD Tivo came out (the one that actually can operate using a single m-card) and there may be a bug in the software.
> 
> All of the above are just theories. It was likely just a bad card. But, there seems to be an increase in this problem recently judging by the comments here. So, maybe not. Worth noting that so far there have been no problems with the blank recording issue since the m-cards were put in. KNOCKING ON WOOD TABLE AS I TYPE THIS!


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## TracyMiller (May 12, 2004)

In addition to the bad CableCARD issue every time I try to record two things at once, twice since I have updated TIVO has rebooted during the recording of two shows. Both times it happened while I was flipping through menus while both shows recorded. And of course, since my TIVO takes 5 minutes to restart, I missed five minutes of each show!  

So until they get this fixed, I babysit the TIVO and force a restart before two shows are scheduled to record simulataneously. And due to this new problem, I guess I'll have to avoid playing with the menus while the two shows are recording, effectively meaning I can't really watch anything during this time.  

Very frustrating!


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## Austin_Martin (Sep 13, 2006)

I've seen mentioned in other threads that it might be possible to "kickstart" the tivo back to a previous software version. Anyone know if this is true? I'd love to be able to get back to 8.3 and stop missing all the programs I'm supposed to be taping.


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## davedonohue (Oct 20, 2004)

My S3 has now taken to random rebooting on its own, and no longer recognizes the eSATA drive. I hope I don't have bigger problems that the one that 9.1 introduced.


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## FLBoy (Oct 10, 2007)

dtivotom said:


> I have done some experiments with my S3 Tivo to get the problem to repeat.
> 
> It seems that if you have 2 shows that are going to start at the same time and they both use cable cards (digital or HD) and at least one or both of your tuners are using the standard cable tuner before the recording, you will blow one of your cards when the tivo tries to tune two cable cards at the same time.
> 
> Manual recordings do not blow the cards. It has to be two season passes or selected recordings due to start at the same time. Also if the tuner does not have to change stations to record, your cards will be ok.


I have tried to replicate your results, but the only time I have gotten the freeze is when I have had two analog channels ending a non-manual recording at the same time that two digital HD channels have started a non-manual recording. Not only that, but, for me, it does NOT happen every time that two analog channels end a non-manual recording at the same time that two digital HD channels start a non-manual recording. I agree that when both the ending and the starting recordings are manual recordings, I have not seen the problem occur, but I have no idea why this would be different.

I will do more tests tomorrow to see if I can detect a more identifiable pattern. The fact that this freeze does not seem to occur on manual recordings makes it very difficult to test, as the tests must be repeated on a minimum of half-hour intervals (normal program breaks).

Have you done any further testing?


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## NetJunkie (Feb 19, 2003)

Sigh. Two weeks in a row we've had this problem and the Tivo missed Earl and The Office. With DirectTV's new HD offerings it's getting harder and harder not to switch. Tivo is very close to losing another original customer.

Things like this make it really hard to socialize Tivo and get people to switch.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

Well, missed 30 rock, office, earl. My wife doesn't understand why and honestly I can't explain it. 

Remember when your Tivo was always dependable? Good times, good times.


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## TracerBullet (Dec 17, 2004)

Well, I just noticed that I have some sort of problem, but it doesn't seem to be the same problem everyone else has, so I don't know if it's a TiVo issue or what. I have NO channels besides what my cable company offers as their basic package (basically OTA, shopping, and Spanish channels). However, bizarrely, my HD OTA channels provided by the cable company are coming in, plus TNTHD (even though TNT isn't coming in).

I thought this was a 9.1 issue because the message was waiting for me when I got home tonight, but last night's _Colbert Report_ was not recorded, so I really have no idea.

A reboot did nothing, and this doesn't seem similar to the problems other people are having. I guess I'll be calling my cable company and asking for them to reauthorize my cards.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?


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## FLBoy (Oct 10, 2007)

Note to TiVo: If you can't fix this NOW, then at least let us go back to 8.x until you can fix the problem. This is unacceptable!!!!


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## PopcornGuy (Apr 6, 2007)

As a followup to my post above (#65), the switch to two m-cards did not work. All was fine for about two days. Now BOTH cards have lost everything. Basic channels all come in but cablecards are not used to unlock those. A reboot did not fix the problem. Three different kinds of hits from the cable company did not bring channels back either. Tivo did not acknowledge a known software problem with me and have opened a case. The Tivo rep did say that open cases are closed automatically within a few days if you don't call back to complain of the problem again. Tivo now on speed dial.


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

Sorry to read the M-cards didn't work.

Are we better off using only one tuner until Tivo releases the fix (in other words, pull one of the CC)? I do not think the sysem would go blank on one CC, correct? If it wouldn't at least we would have reliable recording on one tuner. Perhaps we could even claim 50% service credit.


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

PopcornGuy said:


> As a followup to my post above (#65), the switch to two m-cards did not work. All was fine for about two days. Now BOTH cards have lost everything. Basic channels all come in but cablecards are not used to unlock those. A reboot did not fix the problem. Three different kinds of hits from the cable company did not bring channels back either. Tivo did not acknowledge a known software problem with me and have opened a case. The Tivo rep did say that open cases are closed automatically within a few days if you don't call back to complain of the problem again. Tivo now on speed dial.


The specific anomaly of this issue is that QAM channels (ANY QAM channel) doesn't come in anymore until a reboot...and for me on only one of my tuners/cc at a time. (Hence, the term I've seen applied to this bug as "Lost Tuner" issue). But analog channels continue to work just fine... Usually Analog channels are those below channel 100. (In my case below CH 70).

So I would ask what "Basic channels" means in your set-up? If it means Analog channels then it could be the problem specified here. But if you're still getting ANY QAM channels (Digitial channels, HD or SD...though in the "Basic" tier), then you likely have an Authorization/EMM issue with your provider.

Also, I didn't see if you mentioned which type of CableCARD your provider uses? Is it SA or Motorola? Also, who is your provider?

In an effort to be proactive, I'd check the CP Auth screen for your Cards, and make sure that they are Authorized, Paired, and that you have some EMM (Entitlement Management Messages...usually [but not always] you need >30 EMMs to get all your channels) If you have any Premiums (HBO, Starz, etc.), you almost ALWAYS should need EMMs to get those...) It seems the best time to check for EMMs is shortly after the Cable Company has "re-hit" the CableCARDs, as it appears they can go "away" after awhile...but the Entitlement remains authorized...

Barry


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

mvnuenen said:


> Sorry to read the M-cards didn't work.
> 
> Are we better off using only one tuner until Tivo releases the fix (in other words, pull one of the CC)? I do not think the sysem would go blank on one CC, correct? If it wouldn't at least we would have reliable recording on one tuner. Perhaps we could even claim 50% service credit.


You could pull a CC, but I believe you'd then need to re-do Guided Set up so the TiVo only uses one tuner. If you just pull a CC without re-doing Guided Setup, I believe the TiVo continues to still use both tuners...so one of the tuners won't be able to decrypt at all anymore, regardless of the "lost tuner" bug...

For me, turning off Suggestions has drastically minimized the problem. And I still have like 40+ Season Passes. In fact, with suggestions turned off, I did NOT have a manifestation of the issue yesterday, and my S3 is working fine this morning.

Barry


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

bguzik said:


> For me, turning off Suggestions has drastically minimized the problem. And I still have like 40+ Season Passes. In fact, with suggestions turned off, I did NOT have a manifestation of the issue yesterday, and my S3 is working fine this morning.
> 
> Barry


VERY interesting... Thanks. Please report if its remain working fine >48 hrs. That was -more or less- the time between my system failures...


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## dtivotom (Dec 10, 2003)

FLBoy said:


> I have tried to replicate your results, but the only time I have gotten the freeze is when I have had two analog channels ending a non-manual recording at the same time that two digital HD channels have started a non-manual recording. Not only that, but, for me, it does NOT happen every time that two analog channels end a non-manual recording at the same time that two digital HD channels start a non-manual recording. I agree that when both the ending and the starting recordings are manual recordings, I have not seen the problem occur, but I have no idea why this would be different.
> 
> I will do more tests tomorrow to see if I can detect a more identifiable pattern. The fact that this freeze does not seem to occur on manual recordings makes it very difficult to test, as the tests must be repeated on a minimum of half-hour intervals (normal program breaks).
> 
> Have you done any further testing?


Sorry to say, I have not done any further testing. I have had one blown card that caused me to miss one show since my post. The conditions are weird. Scheduled at 10:01 was ER on NBC in HD which was recorded OTA and scheduled at 10:03 was Big Shots on ABC from the HD cable card which was not recorded because of a blown card. Before these shows, one tuner was on analog cable and the other was on cable card HD CBS and neither one was recording at the time but they were working.

It is possible that one card blew earlier because I have changed all my season passes to never record two cable card shows at the same time and it is possible that the one card could fill the digital recording needs of my Tivo.

At that point if the tivo channel associated with the working card was recording ER at 10:01 OTA the other tuner could not record Big Shots at 10:03 on cable 706 digital because it could only use the channel associated with the blown card and I missed the recording.

Tivo needs to get this crap fixed. I have over 100 season passes and I have a bunch of good shows that I like to watch. I am going to spend my free time watching those shows instead of running more kinds of tests that the programmers at Tivo don't have any interest in looking at. If the programmers were smart, they would be chatting with us here at Tivocommuntiy.com

Dtivotom


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## TracerBullet (Dec 17, 2004)

bguzik said:


> The specific anomaly of this issue is that QAM channels (ANY QAM channel) doesn't come in anymore until a reboot...and for me on only one of my tuners/cc at a time. (Hence, the term I've seen applied to this bug as "Lost Tuner" issue). But analog channels continue to work just fine... Usually Analog channels are those below channel 100. (In my case below CH 70).
> 
> So I would ask what "Basic channels" means in your set-up? If it means Analog channels then it could be the problem specified here. But if you're still getting ANY QAM channels (Digitial channels, HD or SD...though in the "Basic" tier), then you likely have an Authorization/EMM issue with your provider.


I think this is my problem- 9.1 did _something_ and caused my cards to lose authorization, because I have blank channels on BOTH CCs. The channels I do get match with what my cable company offers as the most basic package (except for the HD channels which I am still getting, which is just weird).

Unfortunately I will not be able to call my cable company for a rehit until Saturday. Still, I am unhappy that a TiVo update caused me to lose 3+ days of recordings. If my HD network channels weren't coming in and I had lost a bunch of new season recordings I would have been much more upset.


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## ncbagwell (Feb 15, 2005)

FWIW - Rebooting has fixed this for me as well. For the time being at least...


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## NCC2893 (Mar 4, 2007)

ncbagwell said:


> FWIW - Rebooting has fixed this for me as well. For the time being at least...


Give it a day. It will happen again. I now reboot both my S3s right before prime time to make sure all my shows record.


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## Austin_Martin (Sep 13, 2006)

> I now reboot both my S3s right before prime time to make sure all my shows record


I've gone one step further, given dtivotom's research. I make sure that only one season pass is recording at a time. If another season pass will record, I cancel that episode and set up a manual recording for that show. It worked last night, so hopefully that will help things until they get this crap fixed. I feel like I did back in the 8300 days, where I'd have to make sure the program was recording every time.


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## NCC2893 (Mar 4, 2007)

Austin_Martin said:


> I've gone one step further, given dtivotom's research. I make sure that only one season pass is recording at a time. If another season pass will record, I cancel that episode and set up a manual recording for that show. It worked last night, so hopefully that will help things until they get this crap fixed. I feel like I did back in the 8300 days, where I'd have to make sure the program was recording every time.


This is really ridiculous. Help us TiVo!!!


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

I'm having a similar problem, but I'm not sure it's the same thing that everyone is describing. For the past couple of weeks, at random times my S3 will be at a gray screen when it should be recording something. The diagnostics screen shows that the signal strength is fine and the channel is locked in. At first, I thought it was the same problem that everyone was describing here, but here's the big difference. To get video to come back, I don't have to reboot the TiVo. If I stop the recording and change the channel, the video returns. Then I can just change the channel back to the original one and start the recording again manually. 

This problem started happening a few days BEFORE I got 9.1, so I don't think it's necessarily related. Is anyone seeing a similar variation of the problem?


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## Austin_Martin (Sep 13, 2006)

> If I stop the recording and change the channel, the video returns. Then I can just change the channel back to the original one and start the recording again manually.


Are you sure, at the time that the other tuner is being used for a recording? Otherwise, when you switch the channel, the working tuner is used. For example, if my tuner 2 is not working, when I switch to a HD channel, it switches over to tuner 1.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

Austin_Martin said:


> Are you sure, at the time that the other tuner is being used for a recording? Otherwise, when you switch the channel, the working tuner is used. For example, if my tuner 2 is not working, when I switch to a HD channel, it switches over to tuner 1.


Yes, I'm sure. I've seen the problem affect only one tuner when both tuners were recording. Changing the channel on the affected tuner and changing it back brings the audio and video back every time. Of course, this is only helpful if I notice the problem when it's happening. If I don't notice, the screen will stay gray for the entire hour and nothing will be recorded. I've gotten into the habit of checking all of my prime time recordings a minute after they're supposed to record just to make sure that I don't have to intervene. Obviously not ideal.


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## boblip11 (Oct 6, 2005)

In line with the threads above...

For the second week in a row my S3 did not record CSI last night.

At 8 PM my TIVO records Survivor on the analog version of CBS (I did this to save disk space bofore I added my esata since the show is not in HD).

At 9 PM my TIVO is supposed to record Gray Anatomy and CSI..both in HD. Gray's records fine each week...but the CSI does not due to "lack of video" signal.

A reboot fixes it.

This sucks.

I changed every season pass I could over to the digital channel....hopefully that will reduce the occurrances until Tivo gets off their b*%% and fixes this.


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## jlib (Nov 22, 2002)

PopcornGuy said:


> Tivo did not acknowledge a known software problem with me and have opened a case. The Tivo rep did say that open cases are closed automatically within a few days if you don't call back to complain of the problem again. Tivo now on speed dial.


So, that's why they always say they have never heard of common problems. Users calling in need to make a pest of themselves then. The squeaky wheel ...


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## beno (Jan 4, 2003)

:down: :down: :down: 
I'm also losing my 2nd cable card and I too have an E-SATA drive. This really sucks as I had never experienced a problem with my S3 until 9.1 came along. I've had mine since December 1st of last year. It seems like once I reset the S3 it will work for 2-3 days before I lose the digital channels again.


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

beno said:


> :down: :down: :down:
> I'm also losing my 2nd cable card and I too have an E-SATA drive. This really sucks as I had never experienced a problem with my S3 until 9.1 came along. I've had mine since December 1st of last year. It seems like once I reset the S3 it will work for 2-3 days before I lose the digital channels again.


I've turned off suggestions and that seems to help. As was posted previously, it seems that this issue somehow occurs when both tuners go to record something at the same time. So turning off suggestions can mitigate that occurring as often.

I think that is why folks with eSATA drives may see the problem sooner. With all that storage (I have a 500GB eSATA), my TiVo is almost constantly recording suggestions. So it is much more likely that I'll frequently have both tuners recording at the same time...

Another work-around would be to pull one of the CableCARDs and repeat Guided Setup until TiVo can issue the fix. That way you'd be in single tuner configuration....

Barry


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## JFalc (May 3, 2005)

Same problem here in OKC with COX SA CableCards
CC slot 1 gives me blank channels since 9.1

-John
P.S. I have an ESata Drive attached.


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## lrhorer (Aug 31, 2003)

As already listed before, rebooting the TiVo may resolve the issue, but before you try this, check something first, and then power down the TiVo and restore power after 15 seconds. A soft reboot may not do it. In the following thread I explain how to check if the problem is the one I encountered and how to check if it is fixed afterwards:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5593755#post5593755

Please let us know if swapped cards is at the root of your symptoms and if they re-occur.


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## Saturn (Apr 10, 2001)

No SATA drive here, has happened to me twice now.


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## FLBoy (Oct 10, 2007)

lrhorer said:


> As already listed before, rebooting the TiVo may resolve the issue, but before you try this, check something first, and then power down the TiVo and restore power after 15 seconds. A soft reboot may not do it. In the following thread I explain how to check if the problem is the one I encountered and how to check if it is fixed afterwards:
> 
> (Oops! FLBoy can't post URLs yet--even in a quote LOL.)
> 
> Please let us know if swapped cards is at the root of your symptoms and if they re-occur.


I have SA cards and no external drive. I just checked, and my cards were swapped, i.e., cc1 was with tuner 0 and cc2 was with tuner 1. Powering down and back up did get the card assignments back where they belong. Funny thing is that I had previously occasionally been clearing the gray screen problem by unplugging my unit to make it reboot. That should have got the card assignments right at the time. So the real question in my mind is what is causing the card assignments to swap on their own? (And no, I have not ever physically swapped the cards.) Other funny thing is that at the time I checked and found the card assignments swapped, BOTH cards were properly decoding HD channels. (One card was recording HD, and I could channel hop on the HD channels with the other card.) Go figure.


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## FLBoy (Oct 10, 2007)

Well, I checked my diagnostic screens this morning, and, sure enough, the cable card assignments had been swapped again (cc1 was assigned to tuner 0 and cc2 was assigned to tuner 1). In spite or this, all channels appeared to be working properly.

I then performed a simple restart through the menu--*not* by powering down--and the the original assignments were immediately restored (cc2 to tuner 0 and cc1 to tuner 1).

At this point I am not sure whether the reversal of cable card assignments to tuners is significant to the cable card malfunction issue, or a red herring.

Can anybody explain with certainty why the reversal of cc-to-tuner assignments would be related to a malfunction of a cc, or is it just normal operation for the assignments to swap back and forth? If the assignments are supposed to be fixed in concrete, then why bother showing them on the diagnostic screens in the first place?


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## TracySMiller (Oct 14, 2002)

FLBoy said:


> Well, I checked my diagnostic screens this morning, and, sure enough, the cable card assignments had been swapped again (cc1 was assigned to tuner 0 and cc2 was assigned to tuner 1). In spite or this, all channels appeared to be working properly.
> 
> I then performed a simple restart through the menu--*not* by powering down--and the the original assignments were immediately restored (cc2 to tuner 0 and cc1 to tuner 1).
> 
> At this point I am not sure whether the reversal of cable card assignments to tuners is significant to the cable card malfunction issue, or a red herring.


I'm leaning towards red herring. I checked my unit, which has been having the CC issue since the update, and my assignments were TUNER 0:CC 2, and TUNER 1: CC 1. These did not change after a hard reboot.


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## posterChild (Oct 12, 2007)

generaltso said:


> I'm having a similar problem, but I'm not sure it's the same thing that everyone is describing. For the past couple of weeks, at random times my S3 will be at a gray screen when it should be recording something. The diagnostics screen shows that the signal strength is fine and the channel is locked in. At first, I thought it was the same problem that everyone was describing here, but here's the big difference. To get video to come back, I don't have to reboot the TiVo. If I stop the recording and change the channel, the video returns. Then I can just change the channel back to the original one and start the recording again manually.
> 
> This problem started happening a few days BEFORE I got 9.1, so I don't think it's necessarily related. Is anyone seeing a similar variation of the problem?


I have a similar problem. Interestingly, I'm on 8.3 software with Motorola cards. I do have an eSATA drive. I don't get much information from the various CC screens. I'm not sure if that's a factor of the cards, the provider (Charter Communications), or a manifestation of this problem. Anything in particular I should be looking for on the CC screens?

My failed recordings started 2 weeks ago when it failed to record Journeyman after successfully recording Chuck and Heroes. This past week, it succeeded in recording Chuck at 8pm, failed to record Heroes at 9pm, and succeeded at recording Journeyman at 10pm, all on the HD NBC channel.

I've also had grey screens on ESPN HD a couple of times. I haven't noticed any other HD channels failing to tune in, but I've just now become sensitive to the issue due to my missing shows 

Please let me know if there is any other information I can provide to help debug this for the Tivo folks, as it seems that we here in this thread may be at the leading edge of identifying the scenarios that cause this problem... sadly.

To sum up:

Tivo S3
CC: Motorola
eSATA: Yes
Software: 8.3.1-01-2-648

posterChild


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## TracySMiller (Oct 14, 2002)

davedonohue said:


> FWIW, I just got off the phone with TiVo tech support and they informed me that enough people have called in that it is now a "known issue" with 9.1 and that they hope to have a fix within a week or so. The tech was candid in that he'd taken a few calls himself on it and implied that there were some other bugs in 9.1 that needed to be worked out.
> 
> He said that rebooting is the only way to fix it for now.
> 
> I'm in Charlottesville, VA, on Comcast with SA cards.


Are they still sticking with the "week or so" estimate? It's coming up on that timetable.


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## TracySMiller (Oct 14, 2002)

I just called TIVO to register my complaint about the CC issue after the 9.1 update, and the nice lady told me this is the first they had heard about the issue.


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

bump


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

TracySMiller said:


> I just called TIVO to register my complaint about the CC issue after the 9.1 update, and the nice lady told me this is the first they had heard about the issue.


I just called too, and the CSR I spoke to said the same thing to me. She claimed she didn't know of any CC related issues with the 9.1 update. Whatever.

She went through the diagnostic screens with me, and I have no idea what the numbers mean, but she said these numbers weren't correct:

CCI byte: 0x00
EMM count: 0
EID: 0x00

She said those fields should have numbers in them. I have no idea if she was correct or not.

But the fact that she was completely ignorant of my issue (I described it as having picture on only one digital tuner at a time, and that it fixes itself if I reboot) isn't comforting.


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## bguzik (Jan 7, 2002)

MickeS said:


> I just called too, and the CSR I spoke to said the same thing to me. She claimed she didn't know of any CC related issues with the 9.1 update. Whatever.
> 
> She went through the diagnostic screens with me, and I have no idea what the numbers mean, but she said these numbers weren't correct:
> 
> ...


Tier 1 CSRs do not appear to communicate with each other. Tier 2 seem to communicate, and that's why you have to escalate.

(Actually, that is pretty much my philosophy whenever I call any company for support. I always have to escalate, "speak to a supervisor", or what have you... Basically, by the time _I_ have to call a tech support number, it usually means it is ALREADY NOT a Tier 1 issue... )

Anyway, CCI byte is the copy protect flag. For fully copyable stations, its value SHOULD be 0x00. For protected channels it is usually 0x02.

The ECM count only increments when the CableCARD is decrypting an encrypted QAM channel.

The EMMs is a sticky whicket... I've seen many different posts, opinions on this. For me, the EMM field seems to only be populated after a "hit" from the Cable Company. If the TiVo reboots later, then this field is NOT populated again, unless I call Comcast and have them send another hit. However, even though the EMM field may show "0" after a reboot, all of my channels come in just fine. This gives me the impression that the EMM field is only of use right after a "hit" is sent. So it needs be checked right then and there. If that is OK then, the Entitlement Management Messages (EMMs) must remain programed in the CableCARD. SA should have some other place in their diagnostics to show how many channels have been programmed as entitled...then we'd be able to see right away, regardless if the TiVo rebooted. If anyone knows how to see this other than the EMM field mentioned above, please let us know?

The important thing is that I DO need to make sure the value after a "hit" is something above about 40... But like I say, this is only good (at least for me) after a hit.

Barry


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

bguzik said:


> Tier 1 CSRs do not appear to communicate with each other. Tier 2 seem to communicate, and that's why you have to escalate.
> 
> (Actually, that is pretty much my philosophy whenever I call any company for support. I always have to escalate, "speak to a supervisor", or what have you... Basically, by the time _I_ have to call a tech support number, it usually means it is ALREADY NOT a Tier 1 issue... )
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. The EMM count number has always been 0 for me (and they still are, after reboot, when everything's working like it should), so I don't think the CSR was correct. But the other two numbers have changed. EID says 68 and CCI byte says 0x02, for both CCs.

And same here, I normally don't call customer support about anything until I've exhausted all other possibilities, or like in this case when I just want to make my issue known. As usual, I had to pretend I knew less than I did (though not about those numbers ), because otherwise it seems like the Level 1 CSRs become very protective and hostile. She was very nice though and seemed like she actually cared. I also got a case #, so I'll call back and check in a couple of days. Maybe I'll try and get to a level up at that point.


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## FLBoy (Oct 10, 2007)

My research confirms that Barry is 100% right about the CCI byte, the EMM count, and the ECM count. Regarding the EID, it changes with the channel received. For example (in my system) HBO HD is EID: 0x60, HGTV HD is EID: 0x62, and rebroadcast local HD channels are EID: 0x0.


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## MickeS (Dec 26, 2002)

FLBoy said:


> My research confirms that Barry is 100% right about the CCI byte, the EMM count, and the ECM count. Regarding the EID, it changes with the channel received. For example (in my system) HBO HD is EID: 0x60, HGTV HD is EID: 0x62, and rebroadcast local HD channels are EID: 0x0.


Ah... if it works the same here that would explain why it was EID before - I had it on the CBS HD channel.


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## posterChild (Oct 12, 2007)

Bah, it happened again. I caught it this time, so less of my shows were lost. Here's the scenario that it occurred in:

Season Pass HD Recording on NBC tuner 1 from 8-9
Season Pass HD Recording on CBS tuner 2 from 8-8:30
Season Pass SD Recording on tuner 2 from 8:30-9

Season Pass HD Recording on NBC tuner A from 9-10 *FAILED* to tune
Wishlist HD Recording on CBS tuner B 9-9:30

I marked them as tuner 1/2 and then A/B as I'm not sure which tuners recorded which shows... you'd think that the same tuner would stay on NBC, but I can't say for sure that it did. I noted the failure to tune in the channed (grey screen), stopped the recording. Changed channel to the SD NBC channel then back to HD and it tuned in fine. Then...

Season Pass HD Recording CBS on tuner B from 9:30-10 *FAILED* to tune

Did the same thing with that by changing over to the SD version and popped back and the HD channel tuned.

I'll call Tivo tomorrow and log a ticket with them... hopefully someone is actually working on this. Out of curiosity, anyone have any theories on why this started happening in the last couple weeks? Just the new seasons of prime time starting up? I realize that this thread is a 9.1 thread, but I'm on 8.3 and I'm seeing this behavior. Maybe I have a different issue? In any case, not 'trusting' my Tivo is starting to grow old. Fast.

posterChild

p.s. fwiw, I disabled Suggestions and Wishlist auto-record to reduce the number of 'collisions' in recording/tuning. That should help a bit, but probably not in cases where I have two tuners worth of season pass prime time... unless it's related to non-season pass/manual scheduled recordings.


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## kentfuka (Mar 17, 2002)

I'm having the problem on my Series 3 with Time Warner Austin. Both cards are SA single-stream cards. I have an add-on eSata drive. Problem occurs almost daily since the 9.1 upgrade. Happened very infrequently before 9.1. Haven't yet figured out if it happens with both cards or just card in slot 2.


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## PopcornGuy (Apr 6, 2007)

Another update...
After the switch to two SA m-cards from two SA s-cards and the problem occurred again on both cards on Thursday, I was able to get the cable company back out on Friday. The cards could not be restored in the time the tech was at the house. A senior tech at Brighthouse was aware of the two types of Tivos (1 m-card or 2 difference) and cablecards in general. He decided there was some type of fix on their end. I know there is a delay on SA cards for the channels to all come in; this was not the problem as it was several hours. Both cards were fully functional by Friday night though I don't know what or if anything was done from the cable company side. My S3 made it through the weekend (light recording) and a full Monday night with both tuners recording HD channels back-to-back with no problems. I will post again if the same problem reoccurs.


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## PopcornGuy (Apr 6, 2007)

Just saw this post...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=369749

My problem may have indeed been a localized problem with the cable company. If I ignore this issue, separate from the "9.1 problem" many of us are having, then two m-cards may have actually fixed this for me.

Brighthouse Central Florida
S3
two SA m-cards


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## cab2 (Sep 17, 2004)

sigh, add me to the list. About every day, or at least every 2 days now. This sucks! I've been with tivo since almost day one, and this one is a real problem for me. Most of the other glitches and software problems over the years, i've been willing to live with until the fix came out. This one really is a bugger since I can't controll which tunner will get which program. I don't want to go the 1 card route. 

Original version S3
2 Sci Atlanta single stream cards
Seems to happen more often when I try to record (or 1 pass and 1 suggestion) HD channels.
Reboot usually but not always works
500 gig ESATA drive (SFAP)
Austin TX, and Time Warner

How do you tell which tuner is tuning which station?

I want a new s3 hd for the bedroom but not with this problem.


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## tjramsey (Nov 28, 2002)

I've got the problem, too.

TW Austin
2 SA S-Cards
So far only seen the problem on CC2

Noticed last night for the first time. Rebooted Tivo, which then was promptly recording 2 shows, so looked this morning, and problem was still there.

Rebooted this AM and the problem is fixed for now. I'll call and report it to TiVo when it happens again. (I AM going to try to get it to happen with simultaneous recordings when I would like, rather than leaving it to chance.)

I'm late to noticing this problem (I'll probably find that I have some blank recordings when we get around to watching, but with baseball playoffs, I've often been keeping one tuner free most nights to watch live, so maybe not) Hopefully late means I won't have the problem for long and they fix it soon, but just guessing it might be a little while yet before it is fixed.

T.J.


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## rt1027 (Jul 27, 2003)

I just rturned from being out of town. I've got got the 9.1 update which has worked fine for a week or so up to Saturday 10.13. Today is Tuesday 10.16 and am still unable to get any channels off my S3 from either cable card. All I get is a message saying "Upgrading Cable Card 2. Cable Card firmware upgrade in progress".

I've got 2 SA cards.

Unplugging and restarting the unit doesn't change any thing for me, I just get the same upgrading firmware on CC2 mesage. Pre-recorded shows are working though w/my eSata.

Does this sound like what others are experiencing or a bit different?


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## dig_duggler (Sep 18, 2002)

rt1027 said:


> I just rturned from being out of town. I've got got the 9.1 update which has worked fine for a week or so up to Saturday 10.13. Today is Tuesday 10.16 and am still unable to get any channels off my S3 from either cable card. All I get is a message saying "Upgrading Cable Card 2. Cable Card firmware upgrade in progress".
> 
> I've got 2 SA cards.
> 
> ...


bit different. This happened to me once and it was the cable company's fault. Unplugging may have hosed your cable cards however. Call the cable company (as painful as that will be).


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## rt1027 (Jul 27, 2003)

Thanks, called Charter Cable and the asked me to unplug/replug the Tivo, and of course it didn't fix anythiing.

They're sending someone out tomorrow morning w/ extra cards to see what's up.

At least the tech on the phone knew what a Tivo was. In the past they'vde been dumbstruck at the mention of Tive.

Will post tomorrows resolution to my problem......if there is or isn't one.


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## generaltso (Nov 4, 2003)

posterChild said:


> Bah, it happened again. I caught it this time, so less of my shows were lost. Here's the scenario that it occurred in:
> 
> Changed channel to the SD NBC channel then back to HD and it tuned in fine. Then...


Posterchild, it sounds like your problem is exactly the same as mine. So far, I haven't seen reports of anyone else having this exact variant. It's obviously not related to the 9.1 software, so I'm not sure why it just started a few weeks ago. It seems spretty random, but so far every recording that's been affected has been on an HD channel in prime time. That could just be a cooincidence.

Last night, I had successful recordings of Chuck and Heroes, but Journeyman was gray. Luckily, I check on it about 2 minutes in so I could change the channel and change it back to restore the video.

My other S3 box is not experiencing this problem at all.


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## szwjunk (Jun 3, 2004)

Nothing new to contribute, just want to add to the numbers with the problem.

Series 3, Charter cable in Massachusetts, two SA cards.

Since 9.1, one (usually Cablecard 1) is periodically losing the Digital channels, but everything works again after a re-start.

Hope they get a fix out soon! Meanwhile, per advice here and elsewhere, I will switch off "suggestions" and check my "To Do List" for simultaneous Season Pass recordings on Digital channels!

Steve


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## SCSIRAID (Feb 2, 2003)

szwjunk said:


> Nothing new to contribute, just want to add to the numbers with the problem.
> 
> Series 3, Charter cable in Massachusetts, two SA cards.
> 
> ...


Looks like 9.2 is starting the measured rollout right now......


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## tjramsey (Nov 28, 2002)

Happened again last night, there was a wrinkle, though, in that this time it affected both tuners/cablecards. I had actually tried to make sure the tuner associated w/ CC2 was recording OTA so that it wouldn't mess up a recording on ESPNHD, but I noticed later that the ESPN HD recording went blank half way through, and the following recording, also on ESPNHD was also blank.
Baseball came in fine OTA, though....

I've now turned off suggestions, moved as much of my ToDo list to OTA as possible, and am watching to see if anyone verifies that 9.2 takes care of this.

(Didn't call Tivo this time either... too busy for a couple of days to do so, but if it keeps up I will call them later in the week.... if nothing else, maybe that will help get 9.2 sooner.... probably not, but who knows.)


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## davedonohue (Oct 20, 2004)

SCSIRAID said:


> Looks like 9.2 is starting the measured rollout right now......


I spent about 20 minutes on the phone with TiVo Tier Two support last night. The existence of 9.2 was news to the guy I gave my case number to, but after a lot of back and forth and hold time, I was told that 9.2 does in fact exist, that rollout to TiVo HD and S3 owners began yesterday, and that everyone would have it by mid-November.

After much prodding, he put me on a priority list for 9.2 and said that while the priority page says that it will take up to seven days, that I should have it within three days.

He could not, however, tell me whether 9.2 would address the 2nd CableCard/black screen/reboot issue or any other bugs in 9.1, but hope springs eternal on my end.

I'll report back in as soon as I get the update, but if anyone doesn't want to wait (potentially for a month) for 9.2, I think it's time to visit the Priority Page


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## rt1027 (Jul 27, 2003)

Charter appeared this morning, didn't want to look at my cablecard onscreen problem messages, but immediately removed my existing SA cards (dated 2005) and installed a new set of SA cards dated 2007. Problem solved. 

The tech also lowered the signal strength (he said it was too hot) coming into my Tivo by co-ax saying that doing so would improve picture quality.

Anyway....15 minute service call and I'm back up and running. When asked why my system went down he said cable cards fail sometimes. Period.


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## n1notesguy (Nov 15, 2006)

Hi, 

Just added my situation to the mix. 

Series 3, two SA cards. 

Been having problems since 9.1 (10/5), One card (usually Cablecard 2) is periodically losing the Digital channels, but everything works again after a re-start. 

I spent some time on the phone with TiVo Tier Two support guy last night. He asked me to check the EMM count which was 0 on both cards. Said my problem was with the cable company, not Tivo, that there should be a number there. I told him after a reset that everything was working fine and if EMM=0 meant that I was not authorized to receive the stations why was I getting them now after the re-boot. He had no answer for that. I also told him that I was aware that many other people were having the same problem and their EMM count was also 0. He hsaid this was the first he has ever heard of this problem. I also told him that it was my understanding that it was not unusual that the EMM count be 0 especially after a reboot. He told me that where ever I heard that information was wrong and that the EMM count had to have a number and that he couldn't help me and again told me to call the cable company. 

I asked for his supervisor. I explained the situation to him. I told him all I wanted to know was when this problem would be fixed because my Tivo is basically useless to me right now. He told me that he was unaware of any problem with the Tivo software. I asked him if he ever read the Tivo Community boards because it looks to me like a significant number of people are having the same problem and that the problem seemed to have occurred immediately after the 9.1 update. This guy told me that yes he reads the boards and that 200 or so people might have the same problem and they might have experienced the problem after the 9.1 upgrade but that didn't mean that the problem was with the Tivo software and that there was nothing he could do to help. Unreal, they really need to get their act together over there. 

Oh, the existence of 9.2 was news to this guy as well. 

So, I just visited the Priority Page 

I also hope that they get a fix out soon I really would hate to cancel but right now I am getting nothing for my money. 

Ken


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

n1notesguy said:


> Hi,
> 
> This guy told me that yes he reads the boards and that 200 or so people might have the same problem and they might have experienced the problem after the 9.1 upgrade but that didn't mean that the problem was with the Tivo software and that there was nothing he could do to help.
> 
> Ken


that is a really stupid thing for a level 2 tech support person to say, obviously there is a major bug in 9.1 related to cable cards/ no video. This board is a good representation of the overall Tivo community. I'll be pissed if 9.2 doesn't fix this, this is the worst Tivo bug of all time, my VCR was more reliable than my 9.1 Tivo S3 I paid $800 for


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## Graymalkin (Mar 20, 2001)

Is there a link to the Priority Page?


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## davedonohue (Oct 20, 2004)

I now have 9.2J1 and will report back if it fixes the problem.


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## tivoknucklehead (Dec 12, 2002)

as I have reported in other threads

I had the same problem, just got 9.2j and this seems to have fixed it. I just recorded 2 shows at once with no issues

SA cablecards, S3, component video


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## davedonohue (Oct 20, 2004)

Same here. 9.2J appears to have fixed things for me.



tivoknucklehead said:


> as I have reported in other threads
> 
> I had the same problem, just got 9.2j and this seems to have fixed it. I just recorded 2 shows at once with no issues
> 
> SA cablecards, S3, component video


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## troche (Sep 23, 2007)

I am on c0mcast in Atlanta. Had my own idiotic saga w/cable cards but eventually all worked out. I am using one Motorola M Card. I have basic plus 1 digital tier but no premium channels. New $300 Series 3 working flawlessly. Then...

9.1 update message came Wed 10/17. Today Saturday 10/20 on my set's HDMI input I get HDMI NOT PREMITTED prompt on any TiVo output, either tuner side, live or DVR playback. Just the NOT PERMITTED prompt on the TiVo ouput, period.

I connected RGB cables instead and am back in business. I notice a slight decreas in picture quality. I don't like that. All season passes seem to be recording OK. 

C'mon TiVo get it together. You are really skating on thin ice w/ your HD customers till you fix this.


tom in Atlanta


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## fastfader (Aug 23, 2005)

Same problem here after 9.1


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## mvnuenen (Jun 1, 2007)

FWIW: 3 days ago I turned off the Tivo Suggestions. I did not lose the 2nd CC since. So far so good.

I signed up for 9.2 but till then I keep my fingers crossed.


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## kentfuka (Mar 17, 2002)

Requested the priority update on Sunday. 9.2J arrived Wednesday AM. Turned Tivo Suggestions back on. We'll see...

S3, 2xSA, HDMI, eSATA


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## beady (Oct 30, 2006)

I saw the problem for the first time last night on my S3 with 9.2j. I've had 9.2j since sometime last week. I have Cablevision with NDS cablecards. The Tivo was recording 2 shows and I was watching a 3rd recorded show. The recordings ended and I switched to live TV. I was then channel surfing and it switched to the 2nd tuner where the screen was gray. I let it sit for around 45 minutes and the problem did not go away. When I rebooted the problem went away.


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## davedonohue (Oct 20, 2004)

I spoke too soon. As of tonight, it's happening again.



davedonohue said:


> Same here. 9.2J appears to have fixed things for me.


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