# what do i lose getting an HR20



## caligvla (May 9, 2004)

I currently have 2 upgraded HR10 HD Tivos that I paid over a $1000 each for.
I am very reluctant to switch can you please help me understand what I will lose and gain by switching to the HR20?

How many HD hours does the HR20 record in HD?
Is the HR20 a real Tivo or is it direct tv's home brewed DVR?

Caligvla


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

The HR20 uses software from NDS and has nothing at all from TiVo.

The gain you'll have is the ability to receive and record MPEG-4/Ka-band material, which right now is just HD local channels for several markets, but come mid to late 2007, once 2 new satellites are launched and operational, will begin to include more national HD channels.

You'll also gain leased units that you're now obligated to return when you discontinue your DirecTV account, a 2-year commitment to stay with DirecTV or pay a prorated penalty, the inability to upgrade the drive from its 250GB original size, the inability to add any other hacks, weekly or biweekly software updates as they continue to try to make it work reliably, and you'll no longer be plagued by suggestion recordings no matter what you want. 

If you want to read up on personal experiences with the HR20, visit www.dbstalk.com.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Here's a quick list. I don't claim it to be complete, and it's based only on my experience and in some cases judgment:

HR20 Pro
* receive current and future mpeg4 channels
* all outputs active simultaneously
* native resolution passthrough
* mostly faster interface
* slightly better OTA tuner (better multipath rejection)
* slightly better SD quality (using scaler on unit)
* 90 minute buffer
* "active" features (weather, etc.)
* SATA external port
* Networking capability (music, photos)
* Remaining space indicator
* Easier series link setup (aka season pass)
* the BACK button always goes back to whatever you were doing.

HR20 Con
* more buggy than Tivo - esp. issues with record/playback reliability
* somewhat "clunkier" user interface than Tivo
* only a single buffer, so can't switch between two games with pausing
* no wish lists (some search functionality w/ autorecord)
* no auto-correct on FF and only 30-sec "slip" (not skip)
* no suggestions
* no "list-style" guide


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## caligvla (May 9, 2004)

How is the ease of use and realibility compared to the tivo
does it make mistakes?


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

caligvla said:


> How is the ease of use and realibility compared to the tivo
> does it make mistakes?


I find ease of use and reliability (at this point) to be less than the Tivo in my personal experience. Even given the recent Tivo guide/SP issues.


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## caligvla (May 9, 2004)

No wish lists? wow that is a major loss, most of what I use my tivo for are wish lists on actors, travel locations etc...? Any rumors about adding wish list features or is the a Tivo pattent issue?


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

caligvla said:


> No wish lists? wow that is a major loss, most of what I use my tivo for are wish lists on actors, travel locations etc...? Any rumors about adding wish list features or is the a Tivo pattent issue?


You do have some saved searches, and they can auto-record. However, you can't run _all_ of your searches at once, as you can with the Tivo. It's a pretty big minus for the way I use my Tivo.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

dswallow said:


> The HR20 uses software from NDS and has nothing at all from TiVo.
> 
> The gain you'll have is the ability to receive and record MPEG-4/Ka-band material, which right now is just HD local channels for several markets, but come mid to late 2007, once 2 new satellites are launched and operational, will begin to include more national HD channels.
> 
> ...


Few errors and omissions. 
HR20 software is not NDS - it has been written by DirecTV.
You can use e-sata to expand the storage.
You lose auto-correct on FF.
You get 30 sec slip instead of 30 sec skip.
You gain PIP, FSI and CID.
You trade TiVo UI and remote for DirecTV UI and RF remote.


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## caligvla (May 9, 2004)

what is FSI and CID?


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## caligvla (May 9, 2004)

also does anyone have a list of what these new channels will be?


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

caligvla said:


> what is FSI and CID?


CID = Caller ID.

FSI...I dunno?


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

caligvla said:


> also does anyone have a list of what these new channels will be?


See this thread for more info.


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## bidger (Mar 30, 2001)

Free Space Indicator.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

dswallow said:


> the inability to upgrade the drive from its 250GB original size


You can indeed have as much storage you want with the external eSata port. There have been more then one person that has put on 1.5 TB on the HR20.


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

The specific HR20 forum on dbstalk is.
http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112


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## Sirshagg (Dec 27, 2001)

Can the HR20 hide the 400 channels I could care less about so that I never have to see them in the guide?

Has there been any word, one way or the other, on MRV?


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## JimSpence (Sep 19, 2001)

I'm sure it can hide channels.

See the DSBSTalk link I mentioned above.


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## videojanitor (Dec 21, 2001)

Sirshagg said:


> Can the HR20 hide the 400 channels I could care less about so that I never have to see them in the guide?


Yes.


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## JonR (May 1, 2004)

No Audio dropouts on OTA (6.3a), No instantaneous Reboots, No Shortened Recordings, No Missed SP's just for starters.

John


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

JonR said:


> No Audio dropouts on OTA (6.3a), No instantaneous Reboots, No Shortened Recordings, No Missed SP's just for starters.
> 
> John


Well, my HR20 isn't failing to record shows. It is, however, often not allowing them to be actually _played_. Hopefully the latest release candidate will finally fix that awful bug.


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## nrc (Nov 17, 1999)

JonR said:


> No Audio dropouts on OTA (6.3a), No instantaneous Reboots, No Shortened Recordings, No Missed SP's just for starters.
> 
> John


That doesn't seem to reflect the experience of this reviewer.
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2007/01/directvs_hr20_-.php

Isn't a recording that won't play just an infinitely shortened recording.


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## mikeny (Dec 22, 2004)

samo said:


> Few errors and omissions.
> HR20 software is not NDS - it has been written by DirecTV.
> You can use e-sata to expand the storage.
> You lose auto-correct on FF.
> ...


PIL (Picture in List), as well as every other menu, but not true PIP.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

bwaldron said:


> * native resolution passthrough
> * mostly faster interface
> * slightly better OTA tuner (better multipath rejection)
> * slightly better SD quality (using scaler on unit)
> ...


What are you comparing it to? Since this is a TiVo forum, lets assume the Series 3 (the ONLY HD TiVo on the market).

The S3 does all of the above. And S3's OTA tuner is much better than the HR20, as it doesn't limit you to what DirecTV feels like allowing you to access. Oh and ok, S3's ESATA port is not activated.


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

Adam1115 said:


> What are you comparing it to? Since this is a TiVo forum, lets assume the Series 3 (the ONLY HD TiVo on the market).


Eh? Have you forgotten what forum section you're in? The HR10 is still around.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> What are you comparing it to? Since this is a TiVo forum, lets assume the Series 3 (the ONLY HD TiVo on the market).


Huh? I would have thought it was obvious. Check the forum name


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> What are you comparing it to? Since this is a TiVo forum, lets assume the Series 3 (the ONLY HD TiVo on the market).


Huh? I would have thought it was obvious. Check the forum name 

I was comparing to the HR10, of course. The S3 isn't an option for DirecTV.


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## TomF (Apr 13, 2001)

Others have listed all of the (subjective) pros and cons. I've had an HR10 for about 16 months and an HR20 since early October and this is my (subjective) experience.

Right now, the reliability of the HR20 _for me_ is pretty good. I have had many problems from the start, but they have mostly gone away with the last three firmware releases. Others continue to have serious problems.

At this point, I actually prefer the user interface of the HR20 over the HR10, particularly with it's fast and easy way to record a program or create a Season Link (SP) using the guide and clicking the record button once for a single recording and twice for a Season Link. You can also set the default for how to record programs, including Episode Type: First Run, Repeats or Both; Keep at Most: 1,2,3,4,5 or All; Keep Until: Disk Full or I Delete; and padding the start and stop, rather than having to set the options each time like on the TiVo. The menu system has many more features, but the search function still needs improvement. The HR20 has a page for "Channels I Receive", but this is not functional and you get all possible occurrences of a program, regardless of whether you actually get it or not.

I still prefer the way the trick play features work on the HR10 over the HR20; to me they just work better. With 6.3b, my HR10 seems to be back to the stable and reliable DVR that it has always been and it is still my primary DVR.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

stevel said:


> Eh? Have you forgotten what forum section you're in? The HR10 is still around.


OH! I thought I was in a TiVo forum, but I'll simplify the HR10 vs HR20 comparison-

HR20 Pros-
Supported
Only available DVR
Only DVR that will ever get new HD channels
Only DVR that will keep existing channels

HR10 Cons-
Not available any more
If it breaks you will get an HR20
Won't receive any new HD channels
Won't continue to receive existing HD channels forever
New softwave versions plauge the unit with bug


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

bwaldron said:


> Huh? I would have thought it was obvious. Check the forum name
> 
> I was comparing to the HR10, of course. The S3 isn't an option for DirecTV.


Oh right, because this is a directv forum and there are no other providers... got it!


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> Oh right, because this is a directv forum and there are no other providers... got it!


Obviously the S3 is a great option if you switch providers. No problem discussing it. I just assumed that given the specific forum I was in and the nature of the question ("what do I lose getting an HR20") that the HR10 would be assumed as the reference point.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> Oh right, because this is a directv forum and there are no other providers... got it!


Well, you *were* incorrect when you stated that the S3 was the only HD TiVo on the market ...


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

nrc said:


> That doesn't seem to reflect the experience of this reviewer.
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2007/01/directvs_hr20_-.php
> 
> Isn't a recording that won't play just an infinitely shortened recording.


Unlike you, he's speaking of his own experiences. Cluttering up this thread with anecdotal failures could be done on either side.

For something you've never touched, you sure don't like the HR20. It's like the idea of it just bothers you. It's cute.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Well, you *were* incorrect when you stated that the S3 was the only HD TiVo on the market ...


I was? What other HD TiVo is on the market? The HR10 is not made any more...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> I was? What other HD TiVo is on the market? The HR10 is not made or sold any more...


Ever heard of Ebay? I can't think of a bigger marketplace than that ...


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## stevel (Aug 23, 2000)

The HR10 is certainly available for sale. Not from DirecTV, sure, but from others such as weaknees.com. There are still "new" HR10s out there.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

Adam115 is technically right. There are new units out there, but they would be considered NOS (New Old Stock), not actively marketed.


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## 3thumbsup (Jan 15, 2007)

what do i lose getting an HR20?

Your sanity apparently....


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Billy66 said:


> Adam115 is technically right. There are new units out there, but they would be considered NOS (New Old Stock), not actively marketed.


"Technically" he's right or wrong depending on your interpretation of his initial statement:


Adam1115 said:


> What are you comparing it to? Since this is a TiVo forum, lets assume the Series 3 (the ONLY HD TiVo on the market).


My interpretation is Adam was stating the S3 was the only HD available, but we've already established that is not trues, as the HR10 is still available. I never considered for a moment that we were discussing "new old stock".

So I'm right (in my mind), and you're right (in yours).


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Ever heard of Ebay? I can't think of a bigger marketplace than that ...


Oh geez...  I corrected my statement, it is not made any more. Yes, I've heard of ebay. I sold some moron my HR10 for $425 and bought a S3! LOL

It will not be supported with their new channels and eventually the existing channels. DirecTV won't even warranty it! If it breaks you get an HR20!

Comparing a brand new receiver that just came out to a model that's been out for years and has recently been discontinued doesn't make much sense to me... 

While we're at it let's through out some comparisons of DVD players and VHS.. maybe some car vs. horse and buggy comparisons?



drew2k said:


> My interpretation is Adam was stating the S3 was the only HD available, but we've already established that is not trues, as the HR10 is still available. I never considered for a moment that we were discussing "new old stock".
> 
> So I'm right (in my mind), and you're right (in yours).


You honestly believed that I thought you can't get an HR10 on ebay?? You knew what I meant. The S3 is the only TiVo HD-DVR currently manufactured, warrantied, supported, will have new HD channels in the future.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

The HR20 sounds better and better everyday which is more than can be said for the HR10. I have 6.3b and Monday nights "24" 2 hour event was blasted with audio dropouts (not OTA). Prior night was plagued with reboots. Prior two weeks Season Pass stupidity. And let's not forget that HDMI port!!! So who says the HR10 is better??? 

I had a Replay prior to Tivo and still feel the Replay's interface/ease of use was better than Tivo. It took me some time to get used to Tivo. The same is probably true for the folks that transitioned already to the HR20. At this point I am convinced Tivo mgmt could give a cr*p to providing quality software to DirecTV since their future with them is zip.


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## Billy66 (Dec 15, 2003)

drew2k said:


> So I'm right (in my mind), and you're right (in yours).


Actually, you're right in my mind too.  The channel is still to full for me to truly consider the units NOS.

gquiring, you should give it a shot. Call retention, get a freebie and judge for yourself. See you at DBStalk.


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## gquiring (Dec 13, 2002)

Billy66 said:


> Actually, you're right in my mind too.  The channel is still to full for me to truly consider the units NOS.
> 
> gquiring, you should give it a shot. Call retention, get a freebie and judge for yourself. See you at DBStalk.


If it was not for the 2 year commitment I would have gone that route already. FIOS is coming to our area this year. I think I know where I am going. So D* has a few months to get this cleared up otherwise Verizon is getting my business. The bottom line is who will deliver Starz, Max, TMC and other type of services in HD first. I am not a sports fan so D* offers a poor HD choice for my preference.


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## bwaldron (Mar 16, 2003)

gquiring said:


> If it was not for the 2 year commitment I would have gone that route already. FIOS is coming to our area this year. I think I know where I am going. So D* has a few months to get this cleared up otherwise Verizon is getting my business. The bottom line is who will deliver Starz, Max, TMC and other type of services in HD first. I am not a sports fan so D* offers a poor HD choice for my preference.


The two-year commitment does make decisions difficult. FIOS is available here, and the PQ is very nice. However, their DVR is (IMHO) worse than the HR20 (you could of course go the S3 route if you want to). Biggest issue for me is lack of sports programming -- they have the local RSNs, and recently have added the ESPN college packages, but don't have any of the pro packages. I'm willing to live w/o Sunday Ticket, but not without the MLB/NHL/NBA packages.

If I were not a huge sports fan (or if I were a fan of only my local teams), I'd most likely be a FIOS customer now. I do wonder how quickly Verizon will be adding new HD programming, though...they've got the capacity, but haven't even added FOOD/HGTV in HD many months after annnouncing carriage agreements.


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## SeattleCarl (Nov 11, 2005)

gquiring said:


> The HR20 sounds better and better everyday which is more than can be said for the HR10. I have 6.3b and Monday nights "24" 2 hour event was blasted with audio dropouts (not OTA).


Many people have experiened brief audio dropouts with the HR20, myself included. However I will say overall I very much like the HR20.

Carl


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

stevel said:


> The HR10 is certainly available for sale. Not from DirecTV, sure, but from others such as weaknees.com. There are still "new" HR10s out there.


Update:

My local Costco will be selling HR10-250 receivers for $449.99, no lease, in the next few months through the in-store Verizon kiosk, so these models are STILL on the market at B&M retailers, not just online sellers like Ebay and Weakknees...

I found out the price because I was just at Costco and saw a DirecTV HD DVR (HR20-700) hooked up to a TV, and asked if they were being sold in store. The sales associate took me to a big book of their in-store announcements, and found the DirecTV pages, which showed the HR10 to be sold for $449 (versus competitors selling for $499) but there was no mention of the HR20.


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## bonscott87 (Oct 3, 2000)

Of course that begs the question of why I'd want to pay double the price of an HR20 for an HR10 which won't get any of the new HD and will lose the current HD offered in a couple years. Heck, at that point might as well pony up a few extra bucks and just get a Series 3 Tivo.

But then that's a question everyone needs to ask themselves.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Of course that begs the question of why I'd want to pay double the price of an HR20 for an HR10 which won't get any of the new HD and will lose the current HD offered in a couple years. Heck, at that point might as well pony up a few extra bucks and just get a Series 3 Tivo.
> 
> But then that's a question everyone needs to ask themselves.


I did point that out to the sales associate, letting him know that the HR10 models would NOT receive any of the new HD channels coming out this year. He said he had heard the same thing, but they sell whatever gets shipped to them ...

I hope customers don't end up being deceived, but if they are, Costco does have a great return policy.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

Adam1115 said:


> I was? What other HD TiVo is on the market? The HR10 is not made any more...


So someone can't compare a 2006 BMW to a 2005 BMW because the 2005 is no longer on the market?

AYRTS? IA?

P.S. The name of this forum is TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs

I think there is exactly one unit that fits the description of being a "DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVR."


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

gquiring said:


> The HR20 sounds better and better everyday which is more than can be said for the HR10.


Yep. For me, the only major drag is no wishlists and no suggestions. A lot of stuff I watch comes from suggestions.


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## SpankyInChicago (May 13, 2005)

bwaldron said:


> The two-year commitment does make decisions difficult. FIOS is available here, and the PQ is very nice. However, their DVR is (IMHO) worse than the HR20 (you could of course go the S3 route if you want to). Biggest issue for me is lack of sports programming -- they have the local RSNs, and recently have added the ESPN college packages, but don't have any of the pro packages. I'm willing to live w/o Sunday Ticket, but not without the MLB/NHL/NBA packages.
> 
> If I were not a huge sports fan (or if I were a fan of only my local teams), I'd most likely be a FIOS customer now. I do wonder how quickly Verizon will be adding new HD programming, though...they've got the capacity, but haven't even added FOOD/HGTV in HD many months after annnouncing carriage agreements.


Comast will have a Tivo-powered unit that can record HDTV in the near future. That is certainly something I am looking forward to.


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

bonscott87 said:


> Of course that begs the question of why I'd want to pay double the price of an HR20 for an HR10 which won't get any of the new HD and will lose the current HD offered in a couple years. Heck, at that point might as well pony up a few extra bucks and just get a Series 3 Tivo.
> 
> But then that's a question everyone needs to ask themselves.


Well, for one, you'd own it versus the lease fee of the HR20 and having to return it. And the HR10 will receive OTA 8VSB; it's certainly got at least a few years of very useful life as well as continuing value to those without HD displays or whose only concern is HD OTA.


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> The S3 is the only TiVo HD-DVR currently manufactured, warrantied, supported, will have new HD channels in the future.


Just a note: There's no guarantee that the S3 will record *all* new HD channels in the future. I'm referring to cable systems that will use switched digital video for their new HD channels. The S3 can not access those channels.

What this means is that the Comcast-TiVo may be the *only* DVR with TiVo service that is guaranteed to record all new HD channels in the future.


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## Paperboy2003 (Mar 30, 2004)

I'm hesitantly replacing one of my HR10's with a HR20 on Wednesday. I'm hoping it's palatable enough to replace the other in time for the new HD channels as well as baseball season as I expect there to be value added content available on the HR20. Now all we need is dual buffers....


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## dswallow (Dec 3, 2000)

drew2k said:


> What this means is that the Comcast-TiVo may be the *only* DVR with TiVo service that is guaranteed to record all new HD channels in the future.


Actually no, it won't. Many Comcast cable systems don't carry every digitally broadcast local channel that can be received within the market. Since the 6412/3412 and 8300HD all don't have an OTA 8VSB tuner, there can still be digital and HD channels that aren't available to some.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Just a note: There's no guarantee that the S3 will record *all* new HD channels in the future. I'm referring to cable systems that will use switched digital video for their new HD channels. The S3 can not access those channels.
> 
> What this means is that the Comcast-TiVo may be the *only* DVR with TiVo service that is guaranteed to record all new HD channels in the future.


Well you ARE guaranteed that you WON'T be able to get ANY future HD channels with the HR10...


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## drew2k (Jun 10, 2003)

Adam1115 said:


> Well you ARE guaranteed that you WON'T be able to get ANY future HD channels with the HR10...


Well, true ... if you're talking about new HD channels from DirecTV! And I know you are, I'm just busting chops! 

(You *could* actually get new HD channels with an HR10 if a new station goes live in your market and you have an OTA antenna that lets you receive the new station's HD signal! What are the chances of that happening? Very slim!)


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

drew2k said:


> Well, true ... if you're talking about new HD channels from DirecTV! And I know you are, I'm just busting chops!
> 
> (You *could* actually get new HD channels with an HR10 if a new station goes live in your market and you have an OTA antenna that lets you receive the new station's HD signal! What are the chances of that happening? Very slim!)


Cmon, come to the dark side, get a S3.. Stick it to DirecTV!!!


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