# Stream Will NOT work on MPEG4



## gamo62

Just a heads up. The Stream will not currently work with MPEG4 content. Our system uses MPEG4 for cable channels, and MPEG2 for broadcast. The only ones that will stream are those encoded in MPEG2.

Not sure if TiVo is even aware of this issue.


----------



## Dan203

I wonder why they didn't consider this? I know MPEG-4 channels are rare in the cable industry, but they released an update to the Premiere software to support MPEG-4 channels long before the Stream was released. You'd think they would have added MPEG-4 support just in case. Unless maybe the hardware isn't capable of decoding MPEG-4. But if that's the case then it's a pretty major design flaw.


----------



## Philmatic

Are you absolutely sure about this? That seems like a huge oversight on TiVo's part.

However, I know for a fact that the TiVo Stream hardware supports transcoding MPEG 4 streams, so if this is actually and issue, it would just require TiVo to issue a software update to fix the issue.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah it's been mentioned a few times. Most people only have a couple of channels that are MPEG-4 so it hasn't been a big deal. But apparently the OP's cable provider switched entirely to MPEG-4 except for local channels so it effects him a lot.


----------



## daisyrunr

Well this answers my question of why my stream stopped streaming a lot of channels a few weeks ago. We're also with Cinti Bell Fioptics. I have a Premium XL Tivo and my husband has an older Tivo HD Series 3. A few weeks ago his Tivo stopped working. He thought it was a cable card problem. The technician was out just a little while ago and said his Tivo HD Series 3 won't work with Cinti Bell Fioptics anymore because they switched to MPEG4 recently and my husbands older Tivo only supports MPEG2. Now I'm disappointed to find that my Tivo Stream I just got last Christmas is so limited to the channels I can still 
stream to my Ipad/Iphone.


----------



## wmcbrine

Pretty goofy, since it _outputs_ MP4.


----------



## Dan203

wmcbrine said:


> Pretty goofy, since it _outputs_ MP4.


OK I know this is a huge nit pick, but FYI...

MP4 is a container.

MPEG-4 is a standard that contains a bunch of stuff including the MP4 container, a couple of video codecs and the AAC audio codec.

MPEG-4 part 10, aka H.264, aka AVC, is the video codec.

I know a lot of people use these all interchangeably, but it can be a bit confusing for someone who's not aware of the differences.

In this case the Stream outputs H.264 video and AAC audio in a TS based format called HLS. (basically just a TS file chunked up into a a bunch of tiny segments for easy seeking)


----------



## Bigg

That's really sloppy on TiVo's part, although I'm somehow not surprised. You'd think they would have figured it out, especially with a lot of interest at least about MPEG-4 on the traditional cable side, and MPEG-4 being a big deal on the FIOS side of the cable world.


----------



## Dan203

Yeah I really hope they're working on fixing this. A lot of MSOs are going to be looking at switching channels to H.264 in the next few years.


----------



## wmcbrine

Dan203 said:


> OK I know this is a huge nit pick, but FYI...


Yes, I was too lazy to type more.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> Yeah I really hope they're working on fixing this. A lot of MSOs are going to be looking at switching channels to H.264 in the next few years.


Yup. I hope Comcast joins in on the game. Seeing how they did analog reduction, they'll wait a bit, and then just go for it all the way to free up capacity without SDV.


----------



## lpwcomp

Bigg said:


> Yup. I hope Comcast joins in on the game. Seeing how they did analog reduction, they'll wait a bit, and then just go for it all the way to free up capacity without SDV.


As has been discussed elsewhere, how fast a cable co moves to H.264 will be partially dependent on how much of their currently deployed user equipment they would have to replace.

I sincerely hope TiVo deploys an update to the Series 3 s/w.

When I first read the title of this thread, I wondered if someone had a problem watching a replay of Super Bowl I or IV.


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> I sincerely hope TiVo deploys an update to the Series 3 s/w.


Never gonna happen! The S3 platform is dead. The Premier has been out for 3.5 years and TiVo is on the cusp of releasing a new Series 5. There is no way they are going to dedicate resources to updating a platform that hasn't been sold new in over 3 years. Not to mention this is a problem that already only effects a small percentage of their customers anyway. Most cable companies don't use H.264 yet and those that do only use it on a small subset of lesser watched channels. Companies like the OPs that did a wholesale switch to H.264 are very, very, rare.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> Never gonna happen! The S3 platform is dead. The Premier has been out for 3.5 years and TiVo is on the cusp of releasing a new Series 5. There is no way they are going to dedicate resources to updating a platform that hasn't been sold new in over 3 years. Not to mention this is a problem that already only effects a small percentage of their customers anyway. Most cable companies don't use H.264 yet and those that do only use it on a small subset of lesser watched channels. Companies like the OPs that did a wholesale switch to H.264 are very, very, rare.


In light of the fact that they are in the process of deploying a fix to the S3 (and even supposedly S2's) to address the expired cookie problem, i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility. Especially considering the fact that H.264 support has already been deployed to the Aussie S3 platform and _*should*_ be a fairly easy port.


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> In light of the fact that they are in the process of deploying a fix to the S3 (and even supposedly S2's) to address the expired cookie problem, i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility. Especially considering the fact that H.264 support has already been deployed to the Aussie S3 platform and _*should*_ be a fairly easy port.


Even though H.264 was supported on the platform in Aus/NZ they would still need to beta test it here in the US before pushing the release out to unsuspecting customers. That requires resources and I just can't see them dedicating any of their resources to an 8 year old platform. Especially when they are in the midist working on a new platform.

The fixes they're pushing out will fix the expired cookie and nothing more.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> Even though H.264 was supported on the platform in Aus/NZ they would still need to beta test it here in the US before pushing the release out to unsuspecting customers. That requires resources and I just can't see them dedicating any of their resources to an 8 year old platform. Especially when they are in the midist working on a new platform.
> 
> The fixes they're pushing out will fix the expired cookie and nothing more.


I never claimed otherwise. I'm simply saying that your dismissal of any possibility of their deploying H.264 support for the S3 at some point is not supportable. It may be unlikely, but it is possible and none of has sufficient information to calculate the odds. The longer it takes for some major player to convert to H.264 in a big way, the less likely it becomes, but it never becomes totally out of the question.

Let me ask you this - given the possibility that CableCARDs may be replaced by s/w enforced security, why should anyone buy a TiVo if TiVo may or not deploy a s/w solution to existing platforms if and when that day comes?

In either of the above scenarios, you could end up with a really bizarre situation - S2s (and even S1s) would still work by utilizing a set top box while more recent TiVos would not.

There are really 3 possibilities = I might die, the King might die, or the horse could learn to sing.


----------



## Bigg

lpwcomp said:


> As has been discussed elsewhere, how fast a cable co moves to H.264 will be partially dependent on how much of their currently deployed user equipment they would have to replace.
> 
> I sincerely hope TiVo deploys an update to the Series 3 s/w.
> 
> When I first read the title of this thread, I wondered if someone had a problem watching a replay of Super Bowl I or IV.


Most of the HD stuff out there is MPEG-4 compliant on Comcast. There are some older boxes, but it wouldn't be that big of a change.


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> It may be unlikely, but it is possible and none of has sufficient information to calculate the odds.


I have been with TiVo since the beginning and they have never in their history gone back and released a major update for a discontinued box. In fact the only precedent for this new S3 release is when they released an update for S1 units, many years after they were discontinued, to fix an issue with daylight savings. And that release only contained that one single fix, nothing more.

As for the downloadable security thing... If that happens, and it's actually possible to update via software, then I expect TiVo to release that software for whatever the current generation box is at that time. If it happens next year then I would full expect them to release it for the Series 5 but not the Premiere units. If you don't like that prospect the I would avoid buying a Premiere right now.

Dan


----------



## hbmatt

Anyone heard an update on when TiVo will update the Stream to support MPEG4 video? My cable company also has most of the channels encoded with MPEG4 which means no steaming for me...


----------



## Dan203

We know there is an update coming to enable out of home streaming, so maybe they'll also fix this while they're at it? We don't really know as they don't tend to discuss bugs like this in public.


----------



## aaronwt

Hopefully this is fixed soon since FiOS added four more H.264 channels last week with maybe more coming in September.

Of course it really doesn't do me any good until Android support comes to the Stream anyway.

Is there even a way to test the stream in my Roamio Pro without using an Apple product? IS there some way to test it in Windows.


----------



## Dan203

aaronwt said:


> Is there even a way to test the stream in my Roamio Pro without using an Apple product? IS there some way to test it in Windows.


Nope. Only the iOS app can talk to the Stream.


----------



## moyekj

aaronwt said:


> Is there even a way to test the stream in my Roamio Pro without using an Apple product? IS there some way to test it in Windows.


You can connect to it with a browser at least to check that it responds:
http://<Roamio IP>:49152/sysinfo

My daughter claims that the Roamio stream is not working with her iPad Mini, but refuses to let me touch her iPad to try and debug. I'm not too concerned about it as I have no use for the stream function myself...


----------



## wmcbrine

moyekj said:


> My daughter claims that the Roamio stream is not working with her iPad Mini, but refuses to let me touch her iPad to try and debug.


I guess that's one way to get out of support duty.


----------



## aaronwt

moyekj said:


> You can connect to it with a browser at least to check that it responds:
> http://<Roamio IP>:49152/sysinfo
> 
> My daughter claims that the Roamio stream is not working with her iPad Mini, but refuses to let me touch her iPad to try and debug. I'm not too concerned about it as I have no use for the stream function myself...


Thanks!

That brought up a menu that showed the time, software version, build date, streaming state, transcode status, temperature, etc..


----------



## philhu

aaronwt said:


> Hopefully this is fixed soon since FiOS added four more H.264 channels last week with maybe more coming in September.
> 
> Of course it really doesn't do me any good until Android support comes to the Stream anyway.
> 
> Is there even a way to test the stream in my Roamio Pro without using an Apple product? IS there some way to test it in Windows.


What channels did they add in mp4? Was one of them FXX-HD (584)?


----------



## gamo62

Still no resolution with the Stream and H.264. I cannot believe they didn't see this coming.


----------



## aaronwt

philhu said:


> What channels did they add in mp4? Was one of them FXX-HD (584)?


They added these H.264 channels recently

BeIn Sport HD
BeIn Sport HD Esp
TVGN HD
Sony Movie HD
Universal Sports HD
ESPN Deportes HD
Univision Deportes HD
Willow HD
TV Japan HD

I don't know where they are all located in the channel lineup but the ones I know are
Sony Movie HD - 735
Universal Sports HD 596
Willow HD - 1007
Outdooor HD2 - 591


----------



## horseplay

Yeah, I tried to dump a BeInSport show onto my Tivo last week and it failed. Not so cool...


----------



## ADent

Dan203 said:


> In fact the only precedent for this new S3 release is when they released an update for S1 units, many years after they were discontinued, to fix an issue with daylight savings. And that release only contained that one single fix, nothing more.


The S1 DirecTiVos were fixed (by DirecTV), but the S1 Standalone units were not fixed. A user came up with a hack and after much grousing TiVo incorporated the hack and rolled it out. The hack involves two reboots per DST switch.

I predict the S3s will get MPEG4/H264 support when my S1 unit gets folders/groups.

BTW On the S1 DTiVos they did get one new feature - skip button now takes you to the end AND beginning of the Now Playing screen - S1 SA never got it.


----------



## daisyrunr

Was hoping to get the Stream update for out of home streaming to see if maybe they might have snuck in an update to support MPEG4. I didn't get it on the first go round apparently so I can't try it out. I love my Tivo Stream but hate being restricted to local channels only. 

Did anyone else with this problem get the newest Stream update yet?


----------



## Dan203

I think someone in the Roamio forum tested it and said it still did not work with MPEG-4 channels. Since the version number is the same for standalone units I wouldn't expect it to work there either.


----------



## shamilian

I just tested.
It tries and returns: "Problem Playing Recording"


----------



## daisyrunr

Well, thanks for checking. I'll just keep hoping for another update then.


----------



## gamo62

Any updates on H.264 compatibility?


----------



## moyekj

Nothing has changed - H.264 not functional. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that current Stream hardware cannot support it. For example, perhaps H.264 decoding is not possible.


----------



## patrone

Does anyone have a full list of FIOS channels that have moved to MPEG4? I recently (black friday) invested in a Roamio and 2 Mini's. If it effects a significant amount of FIOS channels I may end up returning my units. Out of Home Streaming (and more importantly, downloading) was a big part of my upgrade justification. I'll be more than a little ticked if I can't stream/download anything but local channels.


----------



## aaronwt

Its still only had handfull of channels in h.264 on FiOS. Although I don't gave a list of them right now.


----------



## Time_Lord

I believe is this is the same issue, on Verizon FiOS BioHD will not transfer/stream to an iPAD from a Roamio plus and even worse, it actually crashes the stream portion of the Roamio.

I called TiVo's support on this about a week or so ago and they ended up logging a bug. Oddly enough the non HD version of the Bio channel works fine with the Stream.

-TL


----------



## Dan203

moyekj said:


> Nothing has changed - H.264 not functional. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that current Stream hardware cannot support it. For example, perhaps H.264 decoding is not possible.


That would be very short sighted of them. Especially since the same hardware is in the Roamio units. There may not be much H.264 out there right now, but over the lifespan of a Roamio it's likely to become much more wide spread.


----------



## lgnad

its not a hardware limitation...

http://zenverge.com/pro-media-processors_zn200.html


----------



## daisyrunr

Anyone heard any news on updates on H.264 compatibility yet?

This is so frustrating. I use my iPad all the time while on my treadmill and its infuriating to see all the shows I have recorded that I can't watch and very few that I can (local channels only). 

C'mon Tivo. Please address this issue! My stream is virtually useless.


----------



## moyekj

daisyrunr said:


> Anyone heard any news on updates on H.264 compatibility yet?
> 
> This is so frustrating. I use my iPad all the time while on my treadmill and its infuriating to see all the shows I have recorded that I can't watch and very few that I can (local channels only).
> 
> C'mon Tivo. Please address this issue! My stream is virtually useless.


 You can use TTG and iTunes to get shows on to your iPad. Nowhere near as easy as using Stream of course, but certainly possible.


----------



## gamo62

Here is the situation. The TiVo app converts content to H.264. Somehow, it doesn't know what to do with content that it already H.264.  Ironic, eh?


----------



## JWhites

Dan203 said:


> That would be very short sighted of them. Especially since the same hardware is in the Roamio units. There may not be much H.264 out there right now, but over the lifespan of a Roamio it's likely to become much more wide spread.


So then this means that since the same hardware found in the Roamio is also what makes up the stand alone units, that one would think the stand alone units will be around for roughly the same lifecycle length as the Roamio?

Sorry if this post is "dredging up old topics", I'm just desperate to find out as much information as I can with my $129 investment.  I wonder if the issue can be addressed in an update to the iOS app. Anyway since according to my Stream the last software update it received was version 19.1.6-01-6 build date Feb 18, 2014, has there been any change or improvement in anything?


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

h.264 support is in the pipeline. There's no known or hinted timetable, just that it's planned.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

September for that. (the clues suggest)


----------



## aaronwt

BigJimOutlaw said:


> September for that. (the clues suggest)


You mean September 2016?


----------



## JWhites

Let's hope this upcoming update fixes this because frankly I think it should work perfectly and make people happy like it was intended to. I hope MPEG4 channels are less compressed and leads to better picture quality which ultimately leads to a better overall experience for the user.


----------



## bradleys

Rumor has it this will be a major update for both the IOS and Android apps. I am sure he main focus has been getting the android app up to speed - but I have a whole list of improvements I would like to see globally!

No real info, we will just have to wait and see...

September is just a few days away!


----------



## JWhites

I'd love to see your list. I get the feeling that all this is gonna happen near the end of September unless Margret uses her immense influence to make it sooner.:up:


----------



## bradleys

Well, just off the top of my head!

- live streaming without recording
- remove proxy server
- LTE streaming
- Download in the background


----------



## JWhites

I think the LTE streaming thing was more of an issue caused by Apple then TiVo, something to do with HLS and low bitrate/bandwidth thingies.

How live streaming is currently handled I don't mind at all because when I'm done watching it I get prompted to delete the show automatically without me having to look for it and do it manually which is a welcome change on how it originally was.

I agree to get rid of the pain in the butt proxy server and give us better quality.

Download in background? Sounds like a good idea.


----------



## bradleys

Yeah, TiVo needs to improve the bitrate to get Apple approval - I actually think that is likely this next release.

As for setting up a recording - I would love to be able to channel surf and it would go a long way in making TiVo stream competitive with Slingbox.


----------



## JWhites

Personally I don't understand the appeal to channel surf in 2014. It's so much faster and simpler to just browse the channel guide for the show you want to watch and watch it. I feel like I've mentioned this before but the whole concept of channel surfing was before the days of electronic program guides. With that said I agree it would be nice for those people to be able to do so, just as long as it doesn't negatively affect those who don't want to. I mean no offense to you bradley, the topic is just something that irks me.


----------



## bradleys

No offense taken - I don't think traditional surfing would be a great experience on the mobile app anyway. But, it might be nice to quickly bounce between a couple of live shows - the current mechanism just seems a little wonky and disconnected to me.


----------



## CoxInPHX

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2921
_"TiVo Stream: These devices are not yet compatible with MPEG4. TiVo Stream will not work with the upgraded Comcast channels *until early 2015*, when a Stream software update that provides compatibility with MPEG4 will be released."_


----------



## moyekj

CoxInPHX said:


> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2921
> _"TiVo Stream: These devices are not yet compatible with MPEG4. TiVo Stream will not work with the upgraded Comcast channels *until early 2015*, when a Stream software update that provides compatibility with MPEG4 will be released."_


 Good find. I guess it took the biggest MSO to prompt TiVo to finally do something about it. "Peons" like Cox and smaller MSOs weren't enough. Very interesting that an all H.264 channel rollout is now starting with Comcast. May set a precedent for others.


----------



## tatergator1

moyekj said:


> Good find.


The actual credit on the find goes to Dave Zatz. He posted an article about 45 minutes before CoxInPHX posted here.

www.zatznotfunny.com/2014-08/tivo-cables-inevitable-mpeg4-transition/


----------



## puffdaddy

Curiously enough, I don't think the update will be an update to the stream software at all. I think it will be an update to the premiere/roamio software to enable them to HLS stream directly to (an updated version of the) iOS/Android (mobile) app.

Currently, the mobile apps "browse" a unit's programs and the stream only gets involved when the mobile app wants to view a video, at which point, the mobile app requests the desired video from the stream. The stream, in turn, fetches the video from the unit being browsed (using MRS), transcodes it, and feeds it to the mobile app. 

All of that redirection was originally required because the premiere/roamio's lacked the cpu power (or the dedicated HW necessary) to real-time transcode their recorded MPEG2 TS videos into the H.264 that iOS can play back.

But the S4 (at launch) and S5's could and can record, store, and playback H.264 directly. So really all that's necessary (for such locally stored H.264 videos) is to extend the premiere/roamio software to support the remuxing and streaming to the mobile apps, at which point, the stream need not even enter the picture anymore.

It stands to reason that there originally wasn't enough H.264 to bother with the effort, but tivo has now been developing this ability (direct streaming) over the past six months or so, presumably, spurred along by a major MSO partner. Whether that will have it available early 2015 as speculated, it's anyone's guess.


----------



## moyekj

puffdaddy said:


> Curiously enough, I don't think the update will be an update to the stream software at all. I think it will be an update to the premiere/roamio software to enable them to HLS stream directly to (an updated version of the) iOS/Android (mobile) app.
> 
> Currently, the mobile apps "browse" a unit's programs and the stream only gets involved when the mobile app wants to view a video, at which point, the mobile app requests the desired video from the stream. The stream, in turn, fetches the video from the unit being browsed (using MRS), transcodes it, and feeds it to the mobile app.
> 
> All of that redirection was originally required because the premiere/roamio's lacked the cpu power (or the dedicated HW necessary) to real-time transcode their recorded MPEG2 TS videos into the H.264 that iOS can play back.
> 
> But the S4 (at launch) and S5's could and can record, store, and playback H.264 directly. So really all that's necessary (for such locally stored H.264 videos) is to extend the premiere/roamio software to support the remuxing and streaming to the mobile apps, at which point, the stream need not even enter the picture anymore.
> 
> It stands to reason that there originally wasn't enough H.264 to bother with the effort, but tivo has now been developing this ability (direct streaming) over the past six months or so, presumably, spurred along by a major MSO partner. Whether that will have it available early 2015 as speculated, it's anyone's guess.


 I don't think it will be that simple, because transcoding is still required. Not even considering that video at 1920x1080 resolution may cause a problem for some clients, certainly AC3 audio would pose a problem and has to be transcoded to AAC. So, transcoding is still needed and hence they still have to go through the Stream to do it.


----------



## JWhites

Hopefully. I'm thinking to myself that there may just be an update to the Android app and nothing more. I guess after that anything more would be an added bonus so one does not get their hopes up.


----------



## JWhites

CoxInPHX said:


> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2921
> _"TiVo Stream: These devices are not yet compatible with MPEG4. TiVo Stream will not work with the upgraded Comcast channels *until early 2015*, when a Stream software update that provides compatibility with MPEG4 will be released."_


Wow, big news on the Comcast front. Great find! Hope Comcast rolls out MPEG4 as quickly as possible to all customers :up: Did Comcast even announce this yet?


----------



## puffdaddy

moyekj said:


> I don't think it will be that simple, because transcoding is still required. Not even considering that video at 1920x1080 resolution may cause a problem for some clients, certainly AC3 audio would pose a problem and has to be transcoded to AAC. So, transcoding is still needed and hence they still have to go through the Stream to do it.


Good points. The ZenVerge chip in the stream supports those functions you cite as still being required (transcaling and transrating for starters). http://zenverge.com/pro-media-processors_zn200.html


----------



## JWhites

moyekj said:


> Good find. I guess it took the biggest MSO to prompt TiVo to finally do something about it. "Peons" like Cox and smaller MSOs weren't enough. Very interesting that an all H.264 channel rollout is now starting with Comcast. May set a precedent for others.


Does this surprise you? I mean Comcast has had a special relationship with TiVo ever since they first were putting TiVo software on their Motorola equipment and then the Xfinity VoD app.


----------



## lpwcomp

JWhites said:


> Wow, big news on the Comcast front. Great find! Hope Comcast rolls out MPEG4 as quickly as possible to all customers :up: Did Comcast even announce this yet?


Yeah, I'm really looking forward to having my THD become useless for everything but locals.


----------



## JWhites

Ohh fiddlesticks, I forgot. Sorry


----------



## Bigg

lpwcomp said:


> Yeah, I'm really looking forward to having my THD become useless for everything but locals.


The THD is very long in the tooth now, and most Comcast markets won't see MPEG-4 for some time to come. It is annoying that TiVo won't update them to support MPEG-4, but at the same time, they are due for replacement anyways...


----------



## lpwcomp

One day soon Bigg will insist that everyone must convert to UHD since anything less isn't worth watching.


----------



## Bigg

lpwcomp said:


> One day soon Bigg will insist that everyone must convert to UHD since anything less isn't worth watching.


They day may come in a few years. I haven't seen UHD yet other than a Best Buy demo loop, so it's hard to judge it to see if that's the case. We'll also have to see what happens from a bandwidth perspective from cable providers...


----------



## slowbiscuit

lpwcomp said:


> One day soon Bigg will insist that everyone must convert to UHD since anything less isn't worth watching.


Sure, but you've got to admit he's right about the HD, it's a very old and tired box now. Tivo has no obligation to release an mpeg4 update for it even though we know it's supported for non-cable video.


----------



## lpwcomp

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure, but you've got to admit he's right about the HD, it's a very old and tired box now. Tivo has no obligation to release an mpeg4 update for it even though we know it's supported for non-cable video.


I never claimed otherwise. I was reacting to the joy with which some are greeting Comcast's conversion to mpeg-4.


----------



## JWhites

lpwcomp said:


> I never claimed otherwise. I was reacting to the joy with which some are greeting Comcast's conversion to mpeg-4.


And what's wrong with being excited at the prospect of better picture quality and possibly more HD channels?


----------



## aaronwt

JWhites said:


> And what's wrong with being excited at the prospect of better picture quality and possibly more HD channels?


You assume the picture quality will improve though. Part of the bandwidth that is freed up will go to DOCSIS 3.1.


----------



## JWhites

Hey gotta have faith, right?


----------



## gamo62

Nice to know that I started this thread back in June of 2013. And they're just now addressing the issue.
Let's see if it holds true when 2015 gets here. I have no idea why they haven't taken care of the issue before now.


----------



## gamo62

slowbiscuit said:


> Sure, but you've got to admit he's right about the HD, it's a very old and tired box now. Tivo has no obligation to release an mpeg4 update for it even though we know it's supported for non-cable video.


They may have no obligation to release an update supporting MPEG4, but they sure as hell have the obligation to let their customers *KNOW* that it doesn't work on systems with MPEG4. Which they don't.


----------



## gamo62

moyekj said:


> Good find. I guess it took the biggest MSO to prompt TiVo to finally do something about it. "Peons" like Cox and smaller MSOs weren't enough. Very interesting that an all H.264 channel rollout is now starting with Comcast. May set a precedent for others.


Cincinnati Bell Fioptics has been MPEG4 for almost two years, with the exception of local broadcast channels. Which are the only channels that can be streamed.


----------



## aaronwt

gamo62 said:


> Cincinnati Bell Fioptics has been MPEG4 for almost two years, with the exception of local broadcast channels. Which are the only channels that can be streamed.


They aren't even in the top ten though are they? Which means they would have under one million TV subscribers. And the Number 20 cable company only has around 165K TV subscribers. I don't see Cincinnati Bell in the top 20 either.
Comcast has over twenty million TV subscribers.


----------



## JWhites

FiOS and Cox have a lot of subscribers though.


----------



## CoxInPHX

Verizon FiOS has 4.7M subscribers total and does not disclose the number of CableCARDs
_Verizon has a very limited number of MPEG4/H.264 channels
_
Cox has 4.5M subscribers, and only 53,806 total Retail CableCARDs - < 1.20% of subs.
_Cox has 32+ MPEG4/H.264 channels in every market._

Comcast has 22M subscribers and 348,799 total Retail CableCARDs - < 1.59% of subs.
_Comcast will have just one market using MPEG4/H.264 in Oct '14, maybe? assuming the transition goes as planed.
_
TWC has 12.2M subscribers, and only 91,809 total Retail CableCARDs - < 0.75% of subs.

May 9, 2014, NCTA Report to the FCC
http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7521120065


----------



## bradleys

CoxInPHX said:


> Verizon FiOS has 4.7M subscribers total and does not disclose the number of CableCARDs
> _Verizon has a very limited number of MPEG4/H.264 channels
> _
> Cox has 4.5M subscribers, and only 53,806 total Retail CableCARDs - < 1.20% of subs.
> _Cox has 32+ MPEG4/H.264 channels in every market._
> 
> Comcast has 22M subscribers and 348,799 total Retail CableCARDs - < 1.59% of subs.
> _Comcast will have just one market using MPEG4/H.264 in Oct '14, maybe? assuming the transition goes as planed.
> _
> TWC has 12.2M subscribers, and only 91,809 total Retail CableCARDs - < 0.75% of subs.
> 
> May 9, 2014, NCTA Report to the FCC
> http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7521120065


That is about what I thought it was. I haven't stumbled on any MPEG4 channels for Verizon in Dallas. Looks like the majors are looking at small test markets in 2014 / 2015 - the impact in total number of users impacted is relatively small at the moment.

That is not to discount gamo62 and JWhites concerns, it just confirms the prioritization.

Frankly, if TiVo was willing to put off all the Android users for 18 months, I don't think a couple of MPEG4 test markets are going to put them into crisis mode!  (Just funnin ya!)

No, the biggest issue around MPEG4 is the decision to brick all of the Series 3 TiVo's.


----------



## slowbiscuit

gamo62 said:


> They may have no obligation to release an update supporting MPEG4, but they sure as hell have the obligation to let their customers *KNOW* that it doesn't work on systems with MPEG4. Which they don't.


Actually, they do:

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2921/kw/mpeg4
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2424/kw/mpeg4


----------



## gamo62

aaronwt said:


> They aren't even in the top ten though are they? Which means they would have under one million TV subscribers. And the Number 20 cable company only has around 165K TV subscribers. I don't see Cincinnati Bell in the top 20 either.
> Comcast has over twenty million TV subscribers.


Well, that may be true, but they're light years ahead of the competition when it cones to technology. And Time Warner is just now coming into the 21st century. SDV and TA's? Really?


----------



## gamo62

slowbiscuit said:


> Actually, they do:
> 
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2921/kw/mpeg4
> http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2424/kw/mpeg4


Actually they don't. It's only if you know where to look. Clicking on the link to buy the Stream
https://www.tivo.com/shop/stream says nothing regarding MPEG4 incompatibility.


----------



## slowbiscuit

gamo62 said:


> Actually they don't. It's only if you know where to look. Clicking on the link to buy the Stream
> https://www.tivo.com/shop/stream says nothing regarding MPEG4 incompatibility.


We switched gears and were talking about the S3s/HDs, not the Stream.


----------



## jrtroo

gamo62 said:


> Actually they don't. It's only if you know where to look.


That is true for any information on any topic. Do you want it spoon fed?


----------



## JWhites

gamo62 said:


> Actually they don't. It's only if you know where to look. Clicking on the link to buy the Stream
> https://www.tivo.com/shop/stream says nothing regarding MPEG4 incompatibility.


Why would it? It's being addressed. Reason why it wasn't mentioned before can be filed under "oversight"


----------



## gamo62

Any update on the addition of MPEG4 Streaming? Or will it continue to be only for the MPEG2 format?


----------



## tatergator1

Latest from Tivo was mp4 support coming in 2015, spring time-frame IIRC.


----------



## davezatz

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2921



> In October 2014, Comcast will transition its system in Augusta, Georgia, from MPEG2 format to MPEG4. This transition means that cable channels in this region will not be viewable on older equipment that is incompatible with the new format.
> 
> TiVo devices in this area will be affected in the following ways:
> 
> TiVo Stream: These devices are not yet compatible with MPEG4. TiVo Stream will not work with the upgraded Comcast channels until early 2015, when a Stream software update that provides compatibility with MPEG4 will be released.
> 
> Roamio Plus/Pro: DVRs are compatible with MPEG4, but the built-in transcoder for streaming will be incompatible. Streaming functionality will return in early 2015, when a Stream software update that provides compatibility with MPEG4 will be released.
> 
> Roamio 4-tuner/Premiere Series: Compatible with MPEG4-no change required.
> Series3/HD: Will only be able to receive local channels. All other cable channels will be incompatible. These TiVo customers must upgrade to a Premiere Series or Roamio Series DVR to continue to receive Comcast channels via TiVo.
> 
> Series1 and Series2: Customers will need to replace their existing cable boxes with updated cable boxes from Comcast to continue to receive content. Existing cable boxes are not compatible with MPEG4.


----------



## JWhites

Hoping the 20.4.5 update brings support for MPEG4 and doesn't make us wait another year or two for it.


----------



## aaronwt

JWhites said:


> Hoping the 20.4.5 update brings support for MPEG4 and doesn't make us wait another year or two for it.


They did say the H.264 stream update would come in 2015. So I wouldn't expect the 20.4.5 update that is coming out this year to include the Stream update. But I guess TiVo could surprise us. But that would not be the norm for TiVo to release something earlier than anticipated.


----------



## bradleys

JWhites said:


> Hoping the 20.4.5 update brings support for MPEG4 and doesn't make us wait another year or two for it.


Tivo has said mpeg4 is scheduled for the spring release - I wouldn't expect it sooner.


----------



## waynomo

Interesting that the Roamio Basic and Premieres are already compatible, but the Plus and Pro aren't.


----------



## lpwcomp

waynomo said:


> Interesting that the Roamio Basic and Premieres are already compatible, but the Plus and Pro aren't.


They are. It's the _*Stream*_, including the one in the Pro and Plus, that isn't compatible.


----------



## JWhites

bradleys said:


> Tivo has said mpeg4 is scheduled for the spring release - I wouldn't expect it sooner.





aaronwt said:


> They did say the H.264 stream update would come in 2015. So I wouldn't expect the 20.4.5 update that is coming out this year to include the Stream update. But I guess TiVo could surprise us. But that would not be the norm for TiVo to release something earlier than anticipated.


Hey I'm just saying according to Zatz report, http://zatznotfunny.com/2014-10/tivo-winter-update-to-feature-amazon-vudu-and-mobile-improvements/ "improved video quality and performance while streaming shows to mobile devices." it's possible MPEG4 might be brought in sooner. Nothing I read online said anything about a Spring update for MPEG4, just "early 2015" but heck I coulda missed something.


----------



## bradleys

JWhites said:


> Hey I'm just saying according to Zatz report, http://zatznotfunny.com/2014-10/tivo-winter-update-to-feature-amazon-vudu-and-mobile-improvements/ "improved video quality and performance while streaming shows to mobile devices. it's possible MPEG4 might be brought in sooner. Nothing I read online said anything about a Spring update for MPEG4, just "early 2015" but heck I coulda missed something.


There is a lot TiVo needs to do to improve the quality and stability of the Stream. I wound't even classify MPEG4 as an improvement, more of additional functionality.

I think TiVo was pretty clear MPEG4 will not be available until 2015 and with all the leaks from beta testing - we would know about it by now if it were ahead of schedule!


----------



## Dan203

I've been a TiVo customer for 15 years now and I don't think they have ever released anything ahead of schedule.


----------



## Diana Collins

JWhites said:


> Hoping the 20.4.5 update brings support for MPEG4 and doesn't make us wait another year or two for it.


It did not...MPEG-4 sources still cause an error.


----------



## JWhites

Diana Collins said:


> It did not...MPEG-4 sources still cause an error.


Yeah my own testing with a downloaded CNET show gave me the error still. Even with the updated app that came out today, the issue continues. Oh well.


----------



## gamo62

They obviously don't care. I'm only able to stream local channels which are MPG2. Everything else is MPG4 and useless.


----------



## aaronwt

I thought they said an update to handle H.264 wasn't coming until early next year? They never said anything about this year did they?


----------



## Dan203

They said early next year on that page talking about the Comcast switchover in GA.


----------



## JWhites

Well it's not like TiVo is going to update the Streams of only the customers in Georgia, right?


----------



## Bigg

bradleys said:


> That is about what I thought it was. I haven't stumbled on any MPEG4 channels for Verizon in Dallas. Looks like the majors are looking at small test markets in 2014 / 2015 - the impact in total number of users impacted is relatively small at the moment.
> 
> Frankly, if TiVo was willing to put off all the Android users for 18 months, I don't think a couple of MPEG4 test markets are going to put them into crisis mode!  (Just funnin ya!)


AFAIK, all FIOS markets are using MPEG-4, but only for the top two (??) packages. The two lower packages are still MPEG-2 only. That will likely change in the future as Verizon reclaims tons of MPEG-4 capable boxes as they deploy VMS.

However, even as it stands now, it's unlikely even the customers with those higher packages are going to try to move MPEG-4 shows off to mobile, since most are still MPEG-2. And, for now, they could record them in SD if they want to move over to mobile.



> No, the biggest issue around MPEG4 is the decision to brick all of the Series 3 TiVo's.


Yes, this is quite true, although it's not quite a brick situation. Even as cable across the US moves to MPEG-4 over the coming years, the S3's will still work with OTA signals. It's still unacceptable given that the S3's have MPEG-4 capable hardware, TiVo just refuses to throw the switch in software.


----------



## aaronwt

Record them in SD?!?!? Bite your tongue.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> Record them in SD?!?!? Bite your tongue.


The whole mobile use case makes no sense anyways, but if you're watching on a crappy little 5" screen, it's hard to tell the difference anyway. 

I like to keep my HD shows on the big screen with surround sound, and the one show that might be semi-useful to put on a mobile device is on HBO, so no dice there.


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Yes, this is quite true, although it's not quite a brick situation. Even as cable across the US moves to MPEG-4 over the coming years, the S3's will still work with OTA signals. It's still unacceptable given that the S3's have MPEG-4 capable hardware, TiVo just refuses to throw the switch in software.


Unacceptable for them not to release updated software for a unit that has not been sold for over 5 years? When the S3 was actively being developed there were no MPEG-4 channels in the US. By the time the first ones started to pop up they had moved on to the Premiere, which is why it got updated.

Just because it has the hardware doesn't mean that it's trival to add support.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> Unacceptable for them not to release updated software for a unit that has not been sold for over 5 years? When the S3 was actively being developed there were no MPEG-4 channels in the US. By the time the first ones started to pop up they had moved on to the Premiere, which is why it got updated.
> 
> Just because it has the hardware doesn't mean that it's trival to add support.


It's unacceptable that they have a device with hardware support for MPEG-4, and yet they refuse to allow the software to work with it. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a scam to force upgrades, since this is TiVo we're talking about, but that is some pretty bad laziness on not updating software.


----------



## lpwcomp

Bigg,

I was unaware that you are so intimately familiar with TiVo s/w so that you know that they simply have to "throw a switch" to "allow the software to work with it".


----------



## aaronwt

lpwcomp said:


> Bigg,
> 
> I was unaware that you are so intimately familiar with TiVo s/w so that you know that they simply have to "throw a switch" to "allow the software to work with it".


There was already a software update for, I think Australia, that enabled H.264 support with the S3.


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> It's unacceptable that they have a device with hardware support for MPEG-4, and yet they refuse to allow the software to work with it. I wouldn't necessarily say it's a scam to force upgrades, since this is TiVo we're talking about, but that is some pretty bad laziness on not updating software.


Just because the hardware supports it doesn't mean they just have to flip a switch and turn it on. The Aus/NZ TiVos, which had the same basic hardware as the S3 but supported H.264, were running ver 14.x whereas the S3 maxed out at 11.0. So there was obviously some major engineering that was required such that they had to increment the major version number.

Also just because the Aus/NZ TiVo ran the same basic hardware doesn't mean it was exactly the same and it's software would just run on a S3. It likely would have still requires some engineering effort to port, plus testing.

But lets assume the S3 could support H.264 with the flip of a switch, what incentive does TiVo have to do that? The S3 platform was discontinued in 2010. The number of units still in use is very low and most of those have lifetime service. Why would they incentivize people to keep using a platform that's nearly a decade old?


----------



## lpwcomp

I happen to believe that if it were that simple, TiVo _*would*_ have done it. This is based on the fact that they put out the "cookie" fix even for Series 2's and that they continue to support the Series 4. Where is their incentive for that?


----------



## Dan203

lpwcomp said:


> they continue to support the Series 4. Where is their incentive for that?


I believe that the only reason they continue to support the Premiere units is because of their MSO partners. They have deals with them to continue to support that hardware for a few more years, which is why they keep releasing updates. But the Premieres are still lagging behind the Roamios a bit in development, so TiVo seems to be providing at least a little artificial demand for the Roamio especially in areas that don't effect their MSO partners like the apps.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> There was already a software update for, I think Australia, that enabled H.264 support with the S3.


Correct. I heard New Zealand, but it could have been Australia.



Dan203 said:


> Also just because the Aus/NZ TiVo ran the same basic hardware doesn't mean it was exactly the same and it's software would just run on a S3. It likely would have still requires some engineering effort to port, plus testing.


It cannot be rocket science to get the US S3's up to the same point that the Aus/NZ S3's are at.



> But lets assume the S3 could support H.264 with the flip of a switch, what incentive does TiVo have to do that? The S3 platform was discontinued in 2010. The number of units still in use is very low and most of those have lifetime service. Why would they incentivize people to keep using a platform that's nearly a decade old?


True. I don't think it's out of malevolence. Knowing TiVo, it just fell off the list after they sat on it for a few years, and then why bother? Plus, I believe that the S3's have 860mhz tuners, and Cox had their H.264 channels up in the 1ghz range, so it basically would have been an update for Verizon at that time.

It's probably still a tiny minority of users who have S3's with the high level packages that include H.264 channels.



lpwcomp said:


> I happen to believe that if it were that simple, TiVo _*would*_ have done it. This is based on the fact that they put out the "cookie" fix even for Series 2's and that they continue to support the Series 4. Where is their incentive for that?


You believe TiVo would have updated something? This is TiVo we're talking about here...


----------



## lpwcomp

Bigg said:


> You believe TiVo would have updated something? This is TiVo we're talking about here...


*sigh* If it were that simple, yes. It isn't. It may not be "rocket science" but it isn't just a matter of "flipping a switch" or "allowing the software" to utilize the hardware.

BTW, in my experience, most rocket scientists make rotten programmers.


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> It cannot be rocket science to get the US S3's up to the same point that the Aus/NZ S3's are at.


I never said it was rocket science. But it will almost certainly require resources. Development time and beta testing time. Why would they commit resources to a platform that has been dead for 4+ years just to appease a relatively small number of people who might benefit from it and who are mostly using lifetime units that have long since rolled off the books? They're still a corporation, and corporations are motivated by money. They have no financial incentive to update the S3. In fact they have a financial incentive not to update them as it will give people a reason to buy a new unit.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> I never said it was rocket science. But it will almost certainly require resources. Development time and beta testing time. Why would they commit resources to a platform that has been dead for 4+ years just to appease a relatively small number of people who might benefit from it and who are mostly using lifetime units that have long since rolled off the books? They're still a corporation, and corporations are motivated by money. They have no financial incentive to update the S3. In fact they have a financial incentive not to update them as it will give people a reason to buy a new unit.


Maybe they should have done it right in the first place, even if no cable providers were using H.264 at the time. It would be like releasing a box today with a 4K/H.265 chipset, and not having the right software on it to decode 2160p H.265 video.

I understand that they have a reverse incentive there, although I'm not convinced that it's malevolence on their part to not upgrade them. I really do believe it's just incompetence. I mean, they have a long history of it in terms of software upgrades, app releases, and the like. Like the whole topic of this thread. It's taking them forever to do something that should have worked in the first place...


----------



## bradleys

Dan203 said:


> I believe that the only reason they continue to support the Premiere units is because of their MSO partners. They have deals with them to continue to support that hardware for a few more years, which is why they keep releasing updates. But the Premieres are still lagging behind the Roamios a bit in development, so TiVo seems to be providing at least a little artificial demand for the Roamio especially in areas that don't effect their MSO partners like the apps.


Yes, but I also think they continue to support the Premiere because there was no need to fork the software when the Roamio was released.

S2 to S3, was a significant fork in the software build. S3 to S4 was also a significant fork in the software build. S4 to S5 was simply a hardware refresh with no series level software changes. They could have chosen not to update the Premiere with the Haxe update - and the MSO units were probably the motivation.

As long as the two systems can continue to run the same version of the code, I think TiVo will continue to push out updates.


----------



## gamo62

Bigg said:


> Maybe they should have done it right in the first place, even if no cable providers were using H.264 at the time. It would be like releasing a box today with a 4K/H.265 chipset, and not having the right software on it to decode 2160p H.265 video.
> 
> I understand that they have a reverse incentive there, although I'm not convinced that it's malevolence on their part to not upgrade them. I really do believe it's just incompetence. I mean, they have a long history of it in terms of software upgrades, app releases, and the like. Like the whole topic of this thread. It's taking them forever to do something that should have worked in the first place...


Agreed. But there are some in here who do not agree with your statement. And when I bought my Stream, there was nothing stating that it would not work with MPEG4. So, I am stuck looking at my local channels, which are still MPEG2, until they get off their arses and get it working.

But I am not holding my breath. I started this thread back in June of 2013!


----------



## lpwcomp

gamo62 said:


> Agreed. But there are some in here who do not agree with your statement. And when I bought my Stream, there was nothing stating that it would not work with MPEG4. So, I am stuck looking at my local channels, which are still MPEG2, until they get off their arses and get it working.
> 
> But I am not holding my breath. I started this thread back in June of 2013!


Are you saying you *only* watch TV via a mobile device?


----------



## Bigg

gamo62 said:


> Agreed. But there are some in here who do not agree with your statement. And when I bought my Stream, there was nothing stating that it would not work with MPEG4. So, I am stuck looking at my local channels, which are still MPEG2, until they get off their arses and get it working.
> 
> But I am not holding my breath. I started this thread back in June of 2013!


True. They should have been more upfront with that, or better yet, maybe they should have done it right the first time around with the Stream!


----------



## Dan203

That's a little different. The Stream is still actively sold and included in the Roamio. It make sense that they would update it to support H.264, in fact I'm surprised they didn't do it sooner.


----------



## Dan203

Bigg said:


> Maybe they should have done it right in the first place, even if no cable providers were using H.264 at the time.


If they had nothing to test against then they could potentially release software that doesn't actually work and then be on the hook to fix it once H.264 channels actually came along. People would be a lot more upset if the S3 had H.264 enabled but it was so buggy they couldn't actually use it, then are about it not being supported at all.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> If they had nothing to test against then they could potentially release software that doesn't actually work and then be on the hook to fix it once H.264 channels actually came along. People would be a lot more upset if the S3 had H.264 enabled but it was so buggy they couldn't actually use it, then are about it not being supported at all.


I'm sure CableLabs or someone had a test system, even back then, running on H.264.


----------



## gamo62

lpwcomp said:


> Are you saying you *only* watch TV via a mobile device?


Absolutely not. But if I want to do OOH streaming, I'm limited to our local MPG2 channels. Even though our CC only sets the CCI flag for premium content, the MPG4 format has basically the same effect.


----------



## lpwcomp

gamo62 said:


> Absolutely not. But if I want to do OOH streaming, I'm limited to our local MPG2 channels. Even though our CC only sets the CCI flag for premium content, the MPG4 format has basically the same effect.


So you were engaging in a bit a hyperbole when you stated:


> So, I am stuck looking at my local channels, which are still MPEG2, until they get off their arses and get it working.


Actually, it was double hyperbole since you are not only not "stuck" with anything, the TiVo developers are not sitting on their fundament.

Also, you might want to take a look at kmttg if you're truly that desperate to OOH stream your mpeg-4 content.


----------



## wmcbrine

Dan203 said:


> The Aus/NZ TiVos, which had the same basic hardware as the S3 but supported H.264, were running ver 14.x whereas the S3 maxed out at 11.0.


The last time I tracked this, the Aus/NZ TiVos were running 11.3-something, and they'd already supported H.264 before that.


----------



## Bigg

gamo62 said:


> Absolutely not. But if I want to do OOH streaming, I'm limited to our local MPG2 channels. Even though our CC only sets the CCI flag for premium content, the MPG4 format has basically the same effect.


What cable provider do you have that's using all MPEG-4 for cable channels?



lpwcomp said:


> Also, you might want to take a look at kmttg if you're truly that desperate to OOH stream your mpeg-4 content.


Or a Slingbox.


----------



## gamo62

Bigg said:


> What cable provider do you have that's using all MPEG-4 for cable channels?


We have Cincinnati Bell Fioptics with the 1gb Internet.


----------



## gamo62

lpwcomp said:


> So you were engaging in a bit a hyperbole when you stated:
> 
> Actually, it was double hyperbole since you are not only not "stuck" with anything, the TiVo developers are not sitting on their fundament.
> 
> Also, you might want to take a look at kmttg if you're truly that desperate to OOH stream your mpeg-4 content.


Actually I have resorted to using kmttg. And I have also started using Plex. Which doesn't like Tivo files, but does like the kmttg converted format.

The Stream is useless. And even "if" they do somehow get out that foggy haze and do add MPG4 support, it will be too late.


----------



## Bigg

gamo62 said:


> We have Cincinnati Bell Fioptics with the 1gb Internet.


Ooooooh, that makes more sense now. 1gbps and QAM together... wow!


----------



## JWhites

gamo62 said:


> Actually I have resorted to using kmttg. And I have also started using Plex. Which doesn't like Tivo files, but does like the kmttg converted format.
> 
> The Stream is useless. And even "if" they do somehow get out that foggy haze and do add MPG4 support, it will be too late.


Maybe too late for you and useless for you, but not too late and not useless for others when the update comes. :up:


----------



## gamo62

JWhites said:


> Maybe too late for you and useless for you, but not too late and not useless for others when the update comes. :up:


More "if" than when. It won't happen any time soon. When I was beta testing, I brought up the fact that it didn't work on MPG4, and offered to test the software, but no one seemed to care.

That actually turned me off to testing. And to TiVo in general.


----------



## Dan203

They have announced that it's coming early next year. Mainly because one of their biggest partners, Comcast, is starting to deploy MPEG-4 channels. They may not have cared about niche cases like yours in the past, but when the largest cable company in the US announces that they are deploying all MPEG-4 in certain markets TiVo has to listen.


----------



## Bigg

Dan203 said:


> They have announced that it's coming early next year. Mainly because one of their biggest partners, Comcast, is starting to deploy MPEG-4 channels. They may not have cared about niche cases like yours in the past, but when the largest cable company in the US announces that they are deploying all MPEG-4 in certain markets TiVo has to listen.


And Verizon is eventually going to put channels that people care about in MPEG-4 as well.


----------



## aaronwt

Bigg said:


> And Verizon is eventually going to put channels that people care about in MPEG-4 as well.


At the rate Verizon is going who knows when it will happen. They already pushed back plans to change a number of channels to H.264. And the last few additions still used MPEG2.


----------



## Bigg

aaronwt said:


> At the rate Verizon is going who knows when it will happen. They already pushed back plans to change a number of channels to H.264. And the last few additions still used MPEG2.


I think they're just waiting for more VMS'es to get rolled out so that they can reclaim and re-issue more of the newer QIP boxes that are MPEG-4 capable to replace the older MPEG-2 only boxes.


----------



## JWhites

Ok it's now after CES and it's January and it's 2015 and it's first quarter. Can I please have my MPEG4 update now?


----------



## aaronwt

Plenty of time before the second quarter starts. It could be Spring and be released toward the end of March.


----------



## Dan203

I think they said the next update is coming in Feb, so we can hope that one includes the MPEG-4 fix.


----------



## gamo62

Tried streaming MPG4 content after the newest update that enabled OnePass. No go. At least now it says that it is an incompatible format. Anyone else with MPEG4 have this issue, or are you able to Stream and copy over MPEG4 content after the update?


----------



## aaronwt

I just tried it with a couple of H.264 recordings on FiOS. I just got a spinning circle for around 30 seconds, then it came up with a prompt to either delete the recording or keep it. I got no message about an incompatible format.


----------



## joewom

aaronwt said:


> I just tried it with a couple of H.264 recordings on FiOS. I just got a spinning circle for around 30 seconds, then it came up with a prompt to either delete the recording or keep it. I got no message about an incompatible format.


It is. They are planning a update in a few months.


----------



## gamo62

aaronwt said:


> I just tried it with a couple of H.264 recordings on FiOS. I just got a spinning circle for around 30 seconds, then it came up with a prompt to either delete the recording or keep it. I got no message about an incompatible format.


Here is a screenshot of the error message. I thought a fix was supposed to be released in Feb?


----------



## joewom

gamo62 said:


> Here is a screenshot of the error message. I thought a fix was supposed to be released in Feb?


As I said in a previous post they stated in a few months.


----------



## gamo62

joewom said:


> As I said in a previous post they stated in a few months.


Sorry. I was told in February. I was also told it was to coincide with the 20.4.6 release that also enabled transfer of copy protected content.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Tivo's only words were "early 2015". Still are.

TCF is a valuable resource but crystal ball readings need to be taken with a grain of salt. We can only make educated guesses at best.


----------



## aaronwt

gamo62 said:


> Here is a screenshot of the error message. I thought a fix was supposed to be released in Feb?


FOr some reason one of my devices showed that message. It just wouldn't stream the H.264 recordings. WHich it didn't do before but I don't remember what it did before when I tried to play them


----------



## joewom

gamo62 said:


> Sorry. I was told in February. I was also told it was to coincide with the 20.4.6 release that also enabled transfer of copy protected content.


I'll try and find were I saw few months from now. I don't think it was from tivo but from another tech news. Said tivo stated around April. For this that it effects both the standalone stream and roamio built in ones.


----------



## davezatz

joewom said:


> I'll try and find were I saw few months from now. I don't think it was from tivo but from another tech news. Said tivo stated around April. For this that it effects both the standalone stream and roamio built in ones.


Their support note had said (and still says) "early 2015" - I covered it last August and Multichannel riffed.

http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2921
http://zatznotfunny.com/2014-08/tivo-cables-inevitable-mpeg4-transition/
http://www.multichannel.com/news/technology/tivo-braces-comcast-s-mpeg-4-shift/383450


----------



## gamo62

Still no word about the addition of MPEG 4 to the Stream. I think we're enough into 2015, to NOT call it early. So, what's their excuse now?


----------



## Dan203

Still in the first half, so technically still early. 

No idea what's taking so long I'm surprised it's not in the newest release.


----------



## gamo62

Agreed. But, where is Plex?


----------



## philhu

Probably going thru their stringent quality control

Or they are looking to break since it seems like every release fixes 2 bugs and breaks 3 things


----------



## slowbiscuit

gamo62 said:


> Still no word about the addition of MPEG 4 to the Stream. I think we're enough into 2015, to NOT call it early. So, what's their excuse now?


And now Comcast is rolling out MP4 channels to the ATL... http://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...8046-atlanta-ga-comcast-139.html#post33495922

C'mon Tivo, shouldn't be that difficult.


----------



## aaronwt

slowbiscuit said:


> And now Comcast is rolling out MP4 channels to the ATL...
> 
> C'mon Tivo, shouldn't be that difficult.


Look how long it took for Android support.


----------



## philhu

I suggest someone call customer service, acting dumb, asking why the stream doesnt seem to do mp4 streams. Let them make it a ticket. 

I just found out Fios stopped their mp4 rollout. They are pushing hard to switch to iptv, which is scaring me that there goes my tivo!!!


----------



## aaronwt

philhu said:


> I suggest someone call customer service, acting dumb, asking why the stream doesnt seem to do mp4 streams. Let them make it a ticket.
> 
> I just found out Fios stopped their mp4 rollout. They are pushing hard to switch to iptv, which is scaring me that there goes my tivo!!!


FiOS added a new channel this month that uses H.264. A baseball channel that is similar to NFL Redzone. I think it's called Strike Zone. They stopped their MPEG2 to H.264 conversion. They haven't stopped adding H.264 channels.

I haven't heard anything recently about a push to IPTV. Years ago that was the case but the last I heard they had changed gears and wasn't pushing for it anytime soon. If they ever do switch to IPTV, if I can't use a TiVo with it then I will be dropping FiOS TV for Comcast. I've used the DVRs from both FiOS and Comcast. I would not want to rely on either of them.


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Verizon's IP push is geared towards their impending internet-based TV service. A separate service from Fios.

For Fios, Verizon opted to start muxing channels 3:1 and phase in new h.264 channels (sometimes) rather than blow up their existing QAM infrastructure. I don't think big changes are likely anytime soon since they will have to play ball anyway with the technology that replaces cablecards that is currently in the works.

But yeah, Tivo needs to get on the ball with mpeg4 Stream support.


----------



## aaronwt

I see FiOS added yet another HD channel this week in my area that uses H.264.

SO yet another channel with recordings that can't be used with the Stream.


----------



## Dan203

There is a new update coming in the next few weeks. Maybe it will finally support H.264 streaming.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> There is a new update coming in the next few weeks. Maybe it will finally support H.264 streaming.


Until they fix the problem where the Android app won't allow me to stream transferred recordings, I will have no way to find out directly since I don't currently have any h.264 channels, although that is supposedly coming.


----------



## gamo62

Nice to see that update that finally allows streaming of MPEG4 content. A long time coming.


----------



## davezatz

gamo62 said:


> Nice to see that update that finally allows streaming of MPEG4 content. A long time coming.


Which update did you get? And was it TiVo and Stream, or just one or other?


----------



## JWhites

Still waiting for an answer here, been over 24 hours. If we don't get one soon we'll have to call BS.


----------



## cannondalege

I have been working with engineering for almost a year on a problem where I am unable to stream BeIN Sports and Universal Sports on FIOS. I am amazed to read some posts here that are so old and yet engineering couldn't identify my problem. They originally said it was new copy protection. But I said I can transfer the videos to my desktop via TiVo Desktop and view them so there is no protection. It had been throwing this message:

*Problem Playing Recording*
an error occurred while playing this recording​
on my Apple devices. Now, since it seems they figured something out it shows:

*Can't Play Video*
This show uses an incompatible video format and can't be played.​
But I only noticed this updated message at the beginning of this month! I can't understand how I can copy the videos to my desktop for viewing yet they can't be transcoded on the fly to stream to my portable devices. That was the only reason to buy a TiVo. Otherwise I would have stayed with the FIOS boxes as they can share content between devices and play on demand content, also. And they aren't much more expensive since the price of the cable card is $5 on FIOS and a client might be around $10


----------



## gamo62

TiVo doesn't give a crap about Stream owners. This has been ongoing. And supposedly a fix was to be released early in 2015. That has come and gone. Perhaps that is why they have online.tivo.com. Because their crappy hardware can't be upgraded for MPEG4.

Sent via Tapatalk


----------



## aaronwt

cannondalege said:


> I have been working with engineering for almost a year on a problem where I am unable to stream BeIN Sports and Universal Sports on FIOS. I am amazed to read some posts here that are so old and yet engineering couldn't identify my problem. They originally said it was new copy protection. But I said I can transfer the videos to my desktop via TiVo Desktop and view them so there is no protection. It had been throwing this message:
> 
> Problem Playing Recording
> an error occurred while playing this recording
> 
> on my Apple devices. Now, since it seems they figured something out it shows:
> 
> Can't Play Video
> This show uses an incompatible video format and can't be played.
> 
> But I only noticed this updated message at the beginning of this month! I can't understand how I can copy the videos to my desktop for viewing yet they can't be transcoded on the fly to stream to my portable devices. That was the only reason to buy a TiVo. Otherwise I would have stayed with the FIOS boxes as they can share content between devices and play on demand content, also. And they aren't much more expensive since the price of the cable card is $5 on FIOS and a client might be around $10


Really? They were that clueless? They should have known the Stream doesn't work with H.264 channels.
H.264 channels have been on FIOS for a while now. And those recordings have never worked with the Stream.


----------



## gamo62

They are. Or they don't care.

Sent via Tapatalk


----------



## BigJimOutlaw

Long-ass delay, but Tivo updated their Atlanta, GA Comcast support page sometime recently with this line:

"TiVo Stream: These devices are not yet compatible with MPEG4. TiVo Stream will not work with the upgraded Comcast HD channels until *mid-2015,* when a Stream software update that provides compatibility with MPEG4 will be released."


----------



## gamo62

Someone should let them know that "mid" is here.

Sent via Tapatalk


----------



## jrtroo

And goes through the third quarter. That seems more likely.


----------



## gamo62

What's more likely is that it won't happen. 

Sent via Tapatalk


----------



## jrtroo

I don't believe that for a second. Its clearly a trend they need to contend with, their cable partners are probably pushing on them to support as well.


----------



## aaronwt

gamo62 said:


> What's more likely is that it won't happen.
> 
> Sent via Tapatalk


That would be very surprising. As more and more systems start to switch to H.264, TiVo will have even more need to support it with the Stream.


----------



## gamo62

TiVo has never been one to be ahead of the curve. They're always playing catch up.

Sent via Tapatalk


----------



## lpwcomp

aaronwt said:


> That would be very surprising. As more and more systems start to switch to H.264, TiVo will have even more need to support it with the Stream.


Take my advice and DNFTEC.


----------



## jrtroo

That's a new one to me. AGREED!


----------



## Dan203

I feel bad for gamo62. He lives in an area where they use H.264 for almost all channels and has been unable to stream for over 2 years now. I'd be p*ssed to if I were in his shoes.


----------



## gamo62

Yep. Funny thing, no mention was made when I bought the stand alone or the one that is built in. We have had H.264 even before TiVo supported it.

Sent via Tapatalk


----------



## CoxInPHX

Does H.264 content currently stream to the new http://online.tivo.com/ portal?

I cannot test that because all my H.264 recordings are CCI 0x02


----------



## gamo62

As expected, it does not. And probably won't until the Stream is updated to handle H.264 content.

Sent via Tapatalk


----------



## telemark

Can H.264 recordings transfer via TivoToGo?


----------



## lpwcomp

telemark said:


> Can H.264 recordings transfer via TivoToGo?


I was able to transfer an h.264 encoded recording that I had pulled to my Roamio back to my computer.


----------



## aaronwt

CoxInPHX said:


> Does H.264 content currently stream to the new http://online.tivo.com/ portal?
> 
> I cannot test that because all my H.264 recordings are CCI 0x02


It can't because the content is routed through the Stream before being viewed in the browser.


----------



## moyekj

CoxInPHX said:


> Does H.264 content currently stream to the new http://online.tivo.com/ portal?
> 
> I cannot test that because all my H.264 recordings are CCI 0x02


 Note that you CAN test, by transferring a TiVo compatible H.264 recording to your TiVo using pyTivo pull with ts=on setting. A pull with ts=on won't transcode to mpeg2 and won't set CCI flag.


----------



## gamo62

It's nice to see TiVo release a fix for the H.264 issue in "early" 2015. Those idiots could not find their asses with two hands and a flashlight! Friggin useless.


----------



## aaronwt

gamo62 said:


> It's nice to see TiVo release a fix for the H.264 issue in "early" 2015. Those idiots could not find their asses with two hands and a flashlight! Friggin useless.


You didn't actually expect it to be fixed in early 2015 did you? No different than when they said Android support was coming soon. That took a very long time too. Which is why I would never hold my breath waiting for these things from TiVo.


----------



## CoxInPHX

Maybe that is why 20.4.8 has been delayed


----------



## gamo62

aaronwt said:


> You didn't actually expect it to be fixed in early 2015 did you? No different than when they said Android support was coming soon. That took a very long time too. Which is why I would never hold my breath waiting for these things from TiVo.


I had people here giving me crap because March was still considered "early."


----------



## gamo62

joewom said:


> As I said in a previous post they stated in a few months.


How much longer is "a few months?" These idiots have no concept of time. Do you see that Margaret!


----------



## Dan203

Yeah we're offically past early.


----------



## davezatz

Dan203 said:


> Yeah we're offically past early.


Support note updated at some point to say "mid 2015"

https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor...cast-Transitioning-to-MPEG4-in-Select-Markets

At least TiVo is consistent in missing targets?


----------



## gamo62

davezatz said:


> Support note updated at some point to say "mid 2015"
> 
> https://support.tivo.com/SupportPor...cast-Transitioning-to-MPEG4-in-Select-Markets
> 
> At least TiVo is consistent in missing targets?


That they are.


----------



## daisyrunr

I'm in the same area as gamo62. I had only been using my Stream for streaming local channels to my old iPad. Now the older App for the older iPad stopped working as well so I just unplugged it as it's really useless to me.

I've been impatiently waiting for an update to the stream as well.


----------



## Dan203

They can't update the app to work with the old iPad due to Apple restrictions, so unless you plan to get a new iPad you're gonna be SOL anyway.


----------



## Dan203

Looks like they're finally adding this for Roamio units. Not sure how far behind the standalone stream is...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=530236


----------



## daisyrunr

Dan203 said:


> They can't update the app to work with the old iPad due to Apple restrictions, so unless you plan to get a new iPad you're gonna be SOL anyway.


Yeah, I realize that. Not ready to spring for a new iPad though. Now that they are supporting stream to AppleTV I would still love to see them update the stream so that I could use it for that.


----------



## lpwcomp

Dan203 said:


> Looks like they're finally adding this for Roamio units. Not sure how far behind the standalone stream is...
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=530236


Has anyone verified that this works? Comcast apparently hasn't converted here yet, at least on any of the channels I record.

Definitely doesn't work for h.264 recordings transferred to the Roamio.

Edit: at least not using the Android app.


----------



## gamo62

I think you have to get the 20.5.2 update first.


----------



## lpwcomp

gamo62 said:


> I think you have to get the 20.5.2 update first.


I have. Both of my Roamios (Pro and Base) have been updated to 20.5.2.


----------



## moyekj

lpwcomp said:


> Has anyone verified that this works? Comcast apparently hasn't converted here yet, at least on any of the channels I record.
> 
> Definitely doesn't work for h.264 recordings transferred to the Roamio.
> 
> Edit: at least not using the Android app.


 Even if your cable company doesn't have H.264 channels you can verify yourself. Pull a compatible H.264 recording to your TiVo using pyTivo with ts=on setting so it doesn't transcode to mpeg2. I'll try it later tonight if nobody else has by then since my Roamio Pro has 20.5.2 now.


----------



## lpwcomp

moyekj said:


> Even if your cable company doesn't have H.264 channels you can verify yourself. Pull a compatible H.264 recording to your TiVo using pyTivo with ts=on setting so it doesn't transcode to mpeg2. I'll try it later tonight if nobody else has by then since my Roamio Pro has 20.5.2 now.


That's exactly what I did. From my initial post in the subject:


> Definitely doesn't work for h.264 recordings transferred to the Roamio.


----------



## moyekj

lpwcomp said:


> That's exactly what I did. From my initial post in the subject:


 I should learn to read. I'll try using the latest IOS app as a client (just updated recently) as perhaps there needs to be an update on client side as well as the stream for it to work.


----------



## lpwcomp

moyekj said:


> I should learn to read. I'll try using the latest IOS app as a client (just updated recently) as perhaps there needs to be an update on client side as well as the stream for it to work.


To be fair to you, it also depends upon what "compatible" means. Maybe the h.264 support implemented in the stream is more limited than that implemented in the TiVo itself. Or maybe there's some flag that isn't being set by the transfer.

Is there anything in the metadata that identifies a recording as h.264?


----------



## moyekj

lpwcomp said:


> To be fair to you, it also depends upon what "compatible" means. Maybe the h.264 support implemented in the stream is more limited than that implemented in the TiVo itself. Or maybe there's some flag that isn't being set by the transfer.
> 
> Is there anything in the metadata that identifies a recording as h.264?


 Seeing as I'm with Cox I have some H.264 channels to test with directly. I'll try that 1st and then a transferred H.264 file just for grins.


----------



## moyekj

Using Roamio Pro with 20.5.2 software and IOS App version 3.6 I can confirm that H.264 streaming (using Roamio Pro built in Stream) is working. It worked for both:
* A copy-protected recording from Cox H.264 channel
* An H.264 sample show transferred from my PC using pyTivo with ts=on

Also, using online.tivo.com web client I was able to play the pyTivo transferred sample. The web client doesn't play copy protected material so couldn't play the Cox H.264 recording using that client, but I would presume non-CCI protected H.264 recordings would work there too. I don't have Android device to test that client with.


----------



## lpwcomp

Based on a vague memory from when I was first testing the capabilities of the stream, I re-discovered something. You can't use the Android app to view anything that has been transferred, even if it was a TiVo-TiVo transfer.

Strangely enough, TiVo Online does not have this limitation. I was also able to watch a transferred h.264 recording using TiVo Online, so either it does not use the Stream or it has indeed been fixed.

BTW, the most noticeable difference in the RPC data for a transferred recording versus a natively recorded one is "transportType": "mrv" versus "transportType": "stream".


----------



## lpwcomp

moyekj said:


> Using Roamio Pro with 20.5.2 software and IOS App version 3.6 I can confirm that H.264 streaming (using Roamio Pro built in Stream) is working. It worked for both:
> * A copy-protected recording from Cox H.264 channel
> * An H.264 sample show transferred from my PC using pyTivo with ts=on
> 
> Also, using online.tivo.com web client I was able to play the pyTivo transferred sample. The web client doesn't play copy protected material so couldn't play the Cox H.264 recording using that client, but I would presume non-CCI protected H.264 recordings would work there too. I don't have Android device to test that client with.


Posts crossing in the night.

Looks like it is a design flaw in the Android app.


----------



## aaronwt

H.264 programs are now working with my Nexus 7 and Galaxy S6 streaming from my Roamio Pro. I just setup a recording on MGM HD on FiOS which is an H.264 channel. It's been streaming fine for the last few minutes to both of those devices.


----------



## lpwcomp

aaronwt said:


> H.264 programs are now working with my Nexus 7 and Galaxy S6 streaming from my Roamio Pro. I just setup a recording on MGM HD on FiOS which is an H.264 channel. It's been streaming fine for the last few minutes to both of those devices.


Yes, the problem with the Android app is with transferred recordings regardless of format.


----------



## gamo62

With the release of 20.5.2, the Stream can now do H.264 to the iPad and online. You may now close this thread. Thank you to everyone who has posted their support and suggestions over the past 2 years.


----------



## Dan203

Yay! You can finally use your stream. At least until your MSO decides to copy protect everything and it becomes worthless again.


----------



## gamo62

Dan203 said:


> Yay! You can finally use your stream. At least until your MSO decides to copy protect everything and it becomes worthless again.


Yes I can. And not just the broadcast channels. And regarding the MSO changing everything? I don't think that is going to happen. Again. They mistakenly copy protected a non premium channel a few years back, and about 3 hours after I called the VP of Fioptics, it was removed. They have done a great job, and have great customer service.


----------



## Dan203

That's nice, but the content providers themselves have the right to copy protect stuff. Just recently Verizon started copy protecting all Fox owned channels, including all their basic cable channels, at Fox's request.

As they start deploying their own streaming/mobile apps, with forced commercials of course, the content providers are going to start locking down these alternative methods. Heck even Slingbox started putting pre-roll ads in their video stream. Unfortunately greed is king in the content market .


----------

