# 9.2 has arrived...



## sinanju

I've noticed that the navigational issues seem to have been fixed. I didn't have the other problems that folks were experiencing, so I can't tell you what else is fixed.

There is another thread already going about eSATA being official now...


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## dig_duggler

Wha? 2nd Cablecard issue? anyone?


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## sinanju

dig_duggler said:


> Wha? 2nd Cablecard issue? anyone?


I have moto cards and 9.1 didn't trouble them.


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## MickeS

Oooh... 9.2? I wonder what bugs they fixed... and which they added.


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## Dr_Diablo

here we go again...


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## astrohip

sinanju said:


> I've noticed that the navigational issues seem to have been fixed.


Could you elaborate? There are so many minor, little gotchas in 9.1 that I'm not sure exactly what you refer to as "navigational issues".

Thanks!


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## sinanju

astrohip said:


> Could you elaborate? There are so many minor, little gotchas in 9.1 that I'm not sure exactly what you refer to as "navigational issues".
> 
> Thanks!


Menu navigation... popping out to the wrong location when navigating and altering the To Do List, Suggestions Folder, etc. All of that seems to be functioning properly now.


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## astrohip

MickeS said:


> Oooh... 9.2? I wonder what bugs they fixed... and which they added.





Dr_Diablo said:


> here we go again...


I'll beat one of my favorite dead horses again. Why oh why doesn't TiVo tell us what is in a release? Instead of hundreds of posts from us blind users about what may or may not be different, just tell us. They can always put gazillions of disclaimers on the What's New page so as to prevent liability for those changes.

If they really had a What's New page, and even had a list of bugs discovered as time goes by, wouldn't we be MORE inclined to have patience with them, rather than the rants & raves that always surface?

prolly never happen, but it's still my .02


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## astrohip

sinanju said:


> Menu navigation... popping out to the wrong location when navigating and altering the To Do List, Suggestions Folder, etc. All of that seems to be functioning properly now.


Thanks! I was hoping that would be a simple, slipstream bug-fixin' release, and it looks like it is! :up: :up:


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## mportuesi

astrohip said:


> I'll beat one of my favorite dead horses again. Why oh why doesn't TiVo tell us what is in a release?


I agree with you 100%, but the last time I said this in TCF I got flamed to a crisp for daring to suggest a company should be forthright with its customers.


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## Saturn

mportuesi said:


> I agree with you 100%, but the last time I said this in TCF I got flamed to a crisp for daring to suggest a company should be forthright with its customers.


I've been here a WHILE and I agree with you 100%. TiVo's communication has gotten worse and worse over the years. A little forum post is all it would take "Fixes are coming soon." "Here's what's been fixed in 9.2:" etc etc.

I'm in software development and our customers DEMAND those sorts of things before they upgrade. Even our POTENTIAL customers have demanded to see things like average bug resolution time, etc.


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## cr33p

Saturn said:


> I've been here a WHILE and I agree with you 100%. TiVo's communication has gotten worse and worse over the years. A little forum post is all it would take "Fixes are coming soon." "Here's what's been fixed in 9.2:" etc etc.
> 
> I'm in software development and our customers DEMAND those sorts of things before they upgrade. Even our POTENTIAL customers have demanded to see things like average bug resolution time, etc.


It is quite interesting that when they first launched the TiVo HD that TiVoPony chimed in on the forum and told is that the fix was on the way for both 8.1.7 b and c, but once 9.1 dropped he hasnt bothered to tell anyone anything about impending updates or fixes. I agree they are starting to drop the ball, probably since they are using all manpower to handle the problems and trying to fix them


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## mportuesi

Well, in general marketing people (which TivoPony is) are much happier about touting new feature updates than bugfixes.


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## wmcbrine

astrohip said:


> Why oh why doesn't TiVo tell us what is in a release?


The last time I saw them comment on this, it was some nonsense about competitive disadvantage... even though the info couldn't possibly be of use to any competitors.

Unfortunately, with corporations in general, the default policy on everything seems to be secrecy. Though that's not usually the case with release notes for software... but I guess that Tivo, oddly, doesn't see itself as being in the software business. :down:


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## Bierboy

astrohip said:


> I'll beat one of my favorite dead horses again....


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## MickeS

mportuesi said:


> Well, in general marketing people (which TivoPony is) are much happier about touting new feature updates than bugfixes.


Which is odd when you think about it, because most users are happier about bug fixes.


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## mportuesi

MickeS said:


> Which is odd when you think about it, because most users are happier about bug fixes.


Yes, but by that point they already have your money


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## astrohip

Bierboy said:


>


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## Joybob

Is this official?


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## Globular

OK, before the thread gets completely hijacked, what's the word on the eSATA support? Is it for any eSATA disk? What's the maximum size? etc. etc. Pony, inquiring minds want to know! I desperately need more storage.

-Matt


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## MickeS

I wonder how well the 9.0 version performed.


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## riddick21

watch amazon movies and tv as it downloads and official esata support, thats whats been added.


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## Revolutionary

riddick21 said:


> watch amazon movies and tv as it downloads and official esata support, thats whats been added.


riddick21: I assume that you got the update yourself? If so, can you please take the time to answer the questions that Globular mentioned, if you can?

In other words, did it just say "ESATA has now been enabled," or did it give instructions and information about where to get (and what) drives?


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## MickeS

riddick21 said:


> watch amazon movies and tv as it downloads


That is a big improvement to me!

Now they just need to get the Unbox content in widescreen, and HD...


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## bareyb

Does anyone know if the "Video Lag On 30 Second Skip and Instant Replay" has been addressed? That would really make my day (and most of my evenings watching TV!).


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## Globular

...and is this a typical TiVo test (pre)release, or is it generally available? Is there a priority list? etc.


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## sinanju

30 second skip seems to be snappy again.

The exact wording on the eSATA message is:

"This update includes official TiVo support for expandable storage solutions from TiVo partners. Adding more recording time to your DVR is as simple as plugging in a verified eSATA drive. Please visit www.tivo.com/expand for more information."

The refered to URL is not active yet. I have no idea what "verified eSATA" drive means or what that means for folk already using the backdoor.


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## WSP

I have gotten the update. My S3 is still happy with my 500G Seagate drive. Reference to this drive now shows under system information.


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## mportuesi

sinanju said:


> 30 second skip seems to be snappy again.


That's good. Now where's the sign-up page so we can opt-out of all future TiVo updates?

Sometimes I envy S1 owners.


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## bown

cablecard issue fixed  
menu bug fixed  
esata expansion officially added  
30 sec skip fixed     

Thank you Tivo! My faith has been restored!


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## crazywater

bown said:


> cablecard issue fixed
> menu bug fixed
> esata expansion officially added
> 30 sec skip fixed
> 
> Thank you Tivo! My faith has been restored!


I certainly hope that the pixelation/macroblocking ( and now fast-forwarding video ) related to SA cablecards is also fixed...


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## rcamille

Can anyone verify if the "all video and backgrounds" vanishes bug has been fixed with 9.2? What i am referring to is the dreaded black screen where all you get is the TiVo menus, no video on cable channels and no playback on now playing list. Only way to rectify is a reboot.

I am not sure if that is what people are referring to when they say the menu bug is fixed.

Thanks


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## normychas

has anybody with 9.2 encountered stuttering previously, if so does 9.2 fix this issue?


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## Saxion

Can anyone confirm if they fixed the lockup that occurs when a manual recording is "selected" in the Season Pass manager? This might only apply to a unit without CableCARDs.


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## TiivoDog

Is there a Priority Page set up for 9.2? I have 9.1, but I have yet to be put on the 'guest list'..... Additionally, I have connected a few times, but it has to be downloaded/installed.


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## fredct

Since you HDers like to hog these threads ... I gotta ask, is this only released for HD systems or has it shown up on some S2s as well?


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## rodalpho

Fantastic! Anyone with a S3 have 9.2 yet?

Edit: Just forced a connection and didn't get it.... sigh. 9.1 is excruciating.


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## Bierboy

bown said:


> ...menu bug fixed  ...


Is this the font size change in the TDL?


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## dig_duggler

bown said:


> cablecard issue fixed
> menu bug fixed
> esata expansion officially added
> 30 sec skip fixed
> 
> Thank you Tivo! My faith has been restored!


Good to hear. I still can't fathom why they didn't pop in here last week and say, we know, we're working on it, it will be out asap.

Now I can turn back on suggestions


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## riddick21

Revolutionary said:


> riddick21: I assume that you got the update yourself? If so, can you please take the time to answer the questions that Globular mentioned, if you can?
> 
> In other words, did it just say "ESATA has now been enabled," or did it give instructions and information about where to get (and what) drives?


It said something about certain drives being supported officially by tivo but didnt give a list. I assume tivo will come out with a branded drive soon. I have gotten a chance to play with this update yet but hopefully it fixed the enormous amount of pixelation I have been getting lately.


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## wmcbrine

rodalpho said:


> Fantastic! Anyone with a S3 have 9.2 yet?


My 9.1 unit (the one I signed up for the priority list) is Pending Restart. I think the other one is still on 8.3.

No real problems for me with 9.1. I'd already stopped noticing the slowdown in 30-sec. skip.


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## cr33p

Running an HD unit here with 9.1, forced connection, no update, maybe its a test rollout again


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## richsadams

Noted that TiVo's Priority Page still lists v9.1, however when you sign up the Thank You page now says:



> Please allow up to seven business days for you to receive the new software.


IIRC it used to say _three _ days. Higher demand, slower rollout or as suggested, only trial upgrades at this time?


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## wgw

TiivoDog said:


> Is there a Priority Page set up for 9.2?


Don't know. But the 9.1 priority page seemed to do the trick when I wanted to upgrade from 9.1(L5) to 9.1. Had the upgrade in 2 days. I'm going to re-enter my service numbers on the 9.1 priority page and hopefully that will send the 9.2 upgrade in 2-3 days.

http://research.tivo.com/91priority/index.htm


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## RoyK

richsadams said:


> Noted that TiVo's Priority Page still lists v9.1, however when you sign up the Thank You page now says:
> 
> IIRC it used to say _three _ days. Higher demand, slower rollout or as suggested, only trial upgrades at this time?


Probably slower rollout -- to give us time to find their bugs for them -- again.


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## richsadams

RoyK said:


> Probably slower rollout -- to give us time to find their bugs for them -- again.


Probably (hope not) but probably. 

*EDIT: * Looks like this is a trial rollout. The version is:

9.2.J

Generally any version with a letter in it indicates a trial.  or  or  I'm not sure how I should feel at this point.


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## George Cifranci

bown said:


> cablecard issue fixed
> menu bug fixed
> esata expansion officially added
> 30 sec skip fixed
> 
> Thank you Tivo! My faith has been restored!


Have those things _really _been fixed/added in 9.2 or are you being funny?


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## Dr_Diablo

astrohip said:


> Could you elaborate? There are so many minor, little gotchas in 9.1 that I'm not sure exactly what you refer to as "navigational issues".
> 
> Thanks!


A typo then huh? When the OP stated there was an update 9.2

9.1 has been availavle for nearly three weeks now.

Didn't really think there would be another update so close to the last, 9.1


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## demon

George Cifranci said:


> Have those things _really _been fixed/added in 9.2 or are you being funny?


I hope it's legit - mainly the parts about the menu fixes and the skip freeze fix; the rest are good, but gravy for me (except the CableCARD fix, which doesn't apply to me). Please say it is.


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## megory

I got 9.1 on 9/26, which seems earlier than others. But 9.2? Not yet.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo

Obviously, one can force a TiVo to call the mother ship whenever they want. How can you tell if doing so has resulted in downloading a software upgrade? Seems like I read somewhere around here that when downloaded, the upgrade will install & reboot at 2am local time. But one cannot tell after connecting whether the download has taken place, right? Nor can one force the installation to occur before 2am?

I put my new TiVo HD in service early Sunday morning, put it on the priority list Sunday evening, and today I came home from work and it had installed 9.1-01-2-652 sometime between now and last night.


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## carroca

After the forced connection is complete, the Status in the Phone & Network screen will say "Pending Restart". You can then do a manual reboot to load the new software (under Messages & Settings)


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## richsadams

carroca said:


> After the forced connection is complete, the Status in the Phone & Network screen will say "Pending Restart". You can then do a manual reboot to load the new software (under Messages & Settings)


You can also usually tell when TiVo is downloading an update if you watch the connection screen. The download will take longer than the usual 30 seconds or less and the "Loading" activity will take much longer than normal.


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## demon

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Obviously, one can force a TiVo to call the mother ship whenever they want. How can you tell if doing so has resulted in downloading a software upgrade? Seems like I read somewhere around here that when downloaded, the upgrade will install & reboot at 2am local time. But one cannot tell after connecting whether the download has taken place, right? Nor can one force the installation to occur before 2am?


In the network & phone settings screen, if a software update has been downloaded, the last status will show as "Pending Restart" instead of "Succeeded" or "Failed". This lets you know that there's a software update to be applied, and the unit will be rebooting itself about 2am to apply the update. If you see this, you can have the unit reboot (the nice way, preferably) any time, and it'll begin applying the update.


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## bareyb

bown said:


> cablecard issue fixed
> menu bug fixed
> esata expansion officially added
> 30 sec skip fixed
> 
> Thank you Tivo! My faith has been restored!


God I hope this is true! If TiVo really fixed all that this quickly then they deserve a huge round of applause. I can't wait until my two S3's get the patch!!! I already forced a call but no joy for us yet. Still, good to know TiVo is listening and trying to help. :up:


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## richsadams

bareyb said:


> God I hope this is true! If TiVo really fixed all that this quickly then they deserve a huge round of applause. I can't wait until my two S3's get the patch!!! I already forced a call but no joy for us yet. Still, good to know TiVo is listening and trying to help. :up:


Im with you, but nothing here either. However we've never gotten one of the trial upgrades (which is what this looks to be)...always had to wait for the "real deal".

If this is the fix for v9.1's bugs, then I agree, three weeks isn't that bad. It certainly negates the _"This terrible upgrade is the end of TiVo!" _ chants.  Wish TiVo would have spoken up though...it could have saved a lot of polarizing back-and-forth.


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## SCSIRAID

richsadams said:


> Im with you, but nothing here either. However we've never gotten one of the trial upgrades (which is what this looks to be)...always had to wait for the "real deal".
> 
> If this is the fix for v9.1's bugs, then I agree, three weeks isn't that bad. It certainly negates the _"This terrible upgrade is the end of TiVo!" _ chants.  Wish TiVo would have spoken up though...it could have saved a lot of polarizing back-and-forth.


Im quite surprised that Pony or Jerry hasnt made an 'official' announcement that a measured rollout has begun....


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## rodalpho

bareyb said:


> God I hope this is true! If TiVo really fixed all that this quickly then they deserve a huge round of applause.


I totally disagree, they deserve a big loud boo for allowing 9.1 to be released in the first place. I'm sure their beta testers caught all of these issues and TiVo pushed 9.1 to production anyway to meet some contract with Rhapsody.


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## RoyK

bareyb said:


> .......If TiVo really fixed all that this quickly then they deserve a huge round of applause.....


For what, exactly? Getting it the way it should have been the first time out? -- If indeed they did.


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## richsadams

SCSIRAID said:


> Im quite surprised that Pony or Jerry hasnt made an 'official' announcement that a measured rollout has begun....


Agreed, that is strange particularly after the multiple posts about the TiVo HD software issues. They acknowledged that there were problems quite fast, that they were working on them more than once and that updates were ready and then being rolled out.

TiVo's silence on this one was deafening.


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## richsadams

rodalpho said:


> I totally disagree, they deserve a big loud boo for allowing 9.1 to be released in the first place. I'm sure their beta testers caught all of these issues and TiVo pushed 9.1 to production anyway to meet some contract with Rhapsody.


Hmmm...hadn't considered the Rhaposdy angle. They're part of Real Networks correct? I've never had much luck with their products...always buggy...kind of like v9.1. Let's hope it doesn't spread any further.


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## SCSIRAID

richsadams said:


> Agreed, that is strange particularly after the multiple posts about the TiVo HD software issues. They acknowledged that there were problems quite fast, that they were working on them more than once and that updates were ready and then being rolled out.
> 
> TiVo's silence on this one was deafening.


Could make you wonder if this was an accident and they were caught flat footed....


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## yunlin12

richsadams said:


> Agreed, that is strange particularly after the multiple posts about the TiVo HD software issues. They acknowledged that there were problems quite fast, that they were working on them more than once and that updates were ready and then being rolled out.
> 
> TiVo's silence on this one was deafening.


Tivo came out with a fix, and very quickly I might add, isn't that what it counts at the end?

What if Pony posted here before the fix was available, but can't quote any date on a fix, you think he would received any better reception? I'd imagine we get a lot of "I don't believe there is a fix until I see it" kind of comments. If I were Pony, I wouldn't want step in here one way or the other.


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## mrmike

Given what I know about software V&V process, I have to believe that these fixes have been in the pipleline for longer than a couple of weeks. They may have decided to break some of them off into a shorter-term release for customer sat issues, though.


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## NJ_HB

richsadams said:


> Agreed, that is strange particularly after the multiple posts about the TiVo HD software issues. They acknowledged that there were problems quite fast, that they were working on them more than once and that updates were ready and then being rolled out.
> 
> TiVo's silence on this one was deafening.


Here's hoping the silence is indicative of hard work and many hours trying to correct 9.1, thats forgivable because we don't have to wait xx months for a fix. 
If thats the case good job TiVo team.


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## rodalpho

yunlin12 said:


> If I were Pony, I wouldn't want step in here one way or the other.


He's in marketing. It's his job.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/09/01


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## ToddNeedsTiVo

demon said:


> In the network & phone settings screen, if a software update has been downloaded, the last status will show as "Pending Restart" instead of "Succeeded" or "Failed". This lets you know that there's a software update to be applied, and the unit will be rebooting itself about 2am to apply the update. If you see this, you can have the unit reboot (the nice way, preferably) any time, and it'll begin applying the update.


Thanks demon & carroca. I had never noticed my S2 showing that in four years, but I'm glad to know about it now. But I didn't look at that status screen much to begin with.

Here's hoping 9.2 solves many of those problems out there. I really hope CableCARDS become more robust in future updates. Maybe by then I'll be interested in what Mediacom has on digital cable and upgrade my service for my TiVo HD.


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## Saturn

yunlin12 said:


> Tivo came out with a fix, and very quickly I might add, isn't that what it counts at the end?


If a fix exists now, but my TiVo doesn't get it for another month, does it really matter to me?

No.

TiVo, fix my TiVo. I'm tired of rebooting my box.


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## stm378

Ok, so someone's gotta ask. I just got 9.2 today, for all of the Tivo HD'ers that haven't yet added a drive with WinMFS...does this update allow Tivo HD owners to do the super easy Kickstart method of adding external storage like the Series 3 owners. Or better yet...gasp....has anyone with 9.2 tried just plugging in an external drive and praying to the Tivo gods that it's plug-n-play?

-S-


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## yunlin12

I come to this forum to find information, and to find out about bugs and bug fixes. If Tivo is not aware of the issue, yeah, we want to talk about it until they get it, but they have a fix now, and is rolling it out, so what does this "I want my fix NOW" talk do us?


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## yunlin12

stm378 said:


> Ok, so someone's gotta ask. I just got 9.2 today, for all of the Tivo HD'ers that haven't yet added a drive with WinMFS...does this update allow Tivo HD owners to do the super easy Kickstart method of adding external storage like the Series 3 owners. Or better yet...gasp....has anyone with 9.2 tried just plugging in an external drive and praying to the Tivo gods that it's plug-n-play?
> 
> -S-


Since not many have gotten the 9.2, and you have it, the better question is:

Have you?


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## TiVoPony

Hello all.

Yes, I'm swamped. Sorry, but hanging out on the forums, communicating with all of you just hasn't been possible as of late. Very busy times.

TiVoJerry is out of the office at the moment (and actually, I just got back into the office). He'll be back soon.

The 9.2 software is a Series3/TiVo HD only release, and just entered the 'test the waters' phase last night. It's going out to a small number of customers to measure the impact on the call centers. We do this with every release, it's part of the process leading to a wider, full scale rollout.

It does offer official support for verified eSATA devices. As the tivo.com/expand page says...more on that later.

There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes. Sorry if that bothers some, but trust that the average TiVo subscriber is not into the same level of detail as folks here on the forum. We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon. Beat the horse, but don't beat the Pony. Thx.

Don't expect to hear much out of us regarding this release for now...it's not released yet. It's just simmering...it'll be soup soon enough. 

Pony


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## BrianAZ

TiVoPony said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Yes, I'm swamped. Sorry, but hanging out on the forums, communicating with all of you just hasn't been possible as of late. Very busy times.
> 
> TiVoJerry is out of the office at the moment (and actually, I just got back into the office). He'll be back soon.
> 
> The 9.2 software is a Series3/TiVo HD only release, and just entered the 'test the waters' phase last night. It's going out to a small number of customers to measure the impact on the call centers. We do this with every release, it's part of the process leading to a wider, full scale rollout.
> 
> It does offer official support for verified eSATA devices. As the tivo.com/expand page says...more on that later.
> 
> There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes. Sorry if that bothers some, but trust that the average TiVo subscriber is not into the same level of detail as folks here on the forum. We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon. Beat the horse, but don't beat the Pony. Thx.
> 
> Don't expect to hear much out of us regarding this release for now...it's not released yet. It's just simmering...it'll be soup soon enough.
> 
> Pony


Thanks Pony! While you had to leave some questions unanswered, it's still nice to know Tivo's watching/listening.


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## stm378

yunlin12 said:


> Since not many have gotten the 9.2, and you have it, the better question is:
> 
> Have you?


No no, and I can't...I have a Seagate 750 that's still in the box and waiting for confirmation. I'm hoping someone else has one that's open or from another system or that they're making or something. I don't want to open it until I know that it will work and that Tivo is not going to just allow their own proprietary "Tivo Drives". I'd bet money that they're coming, and most likely are the "exciting new product" that the external drive link on Tivo is talking about. If that is the case then I want to still be able to return the Seagate drive, because if I can't use it for Tivo I have no use for it.

-S-


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## Icarus

never mind .. just saw TivoPony's response. (there was another page in the thread!)

-David


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## cr33p

Someone could also PM Spike and see if he has gotten ahold of the new 9.2 and tested the kick start method for the TiVo HD? Or someone could help him obtain it as well


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## normychas

thanks tivo pony you are very kind being a public messenger for tivo on these message boards. 
I wanted to know if anybody else finds the language of verified device as odd? I know that tivo hard drives have been talked about for awhile but am i the only one worried that we will lose the opportunity to add stuff. I have a tivo hd but i would be worried about losing kick start 62 functionality with the 9.2 update. Thoughts?


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## moyekj

Thanks TivoPony. Since the 9.2 update is specific to S3/THD units then I would presume there will be no priority list and the rollout should happen fairly quickly once the floodgates are open (considering the S3/THD user base is much less than the S2 user base).


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## Soapm

Thanks Pony, anything simmering for us S2 users. My DT wish list and season passes took a beating with the 9.1 release and I would like to know if I can stop recreating them all or not. This is a huge tedous task that I can really do without.


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## Graymalkin

Dagnabbit -- I had a "pending restart" for my newest TiVo HD -- but it was from 8.1 to 9.1.


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## Carsten

I doubt that they will wipe our "unoffical" eSATA hdd upgrades. If they would do this then it would have been done a long time ago (with the 9.x release I think).

Plus they would piss alot of people off, I dont think it was a mistake that the kickstart method was ever there in the first place. I read about the kickstart on *another* forum but didnt even know what kickstart ment at the time until Mr. Spike announced it. I think it was put there for people to expand "unoffically" without support. I took the risk and am happy I did. There would have been no way for me to keep all my F1 stuff this session with only 1 250gb hdd....well, with TTG disabled.


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## Joybob

9.2 is exactly what those of us with 0 problems with 9.1 needed.


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## Carsten

TiVoPony said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Yes, I'm swamped. Sorry, but hanging out on the forums, communicating with all of you just hasn't been possible as of late. Very busy times.
> 
> TiVoJerry is out of the office at the moment (and actually, I just got back into the office). He'll be back soon.
> 
> The 9.2 software is a Series3/TiVo HD only release, and just entered the 'test the waters' phase last night. It's going out to a small number of customers to measure the impact on the call centers. We do this with every release, it's part of the process leading to a wider, full scale rollout.
> 
> It does offer official support for verified eSATA devices. As the tivo.com/expand page says...more on that later.
> 
> There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes. Sorry if that bothers some, but trust that the average TiVo subscriber is not into the same level of detail as folks here on the forum. We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon. Beat the horse, but don't beat the Pony. Thx.
> 
> Don't expect to hear much out of us regarding this release for now...it's not released yet. It's just simmering...it'll be soup soon enough.
> 
> Pony


Want me to get you a BlackBerry so you can keep in touch 24/7? Got plenty of nice onces laying around...

PM me.


----------



## sinanju

Carsten said:


> I doubt that they will wipe our "unoffical" eSATA hdd upgrades.


We already know for a fact they won't. They didn't. We already have reports of the backdoor functioning with 9.2 and functioning fully.


----------



## bareyb

I have a pretty strong feeling that TiVo will provide a list of "known compatible drives and enclosures" similar to what other hardware/software companies do (Protools is a good example) along with a "turnkey solution" drive/case combo (I'm guessing a variant of the Free Agent Pro) that you can simply plug and play. 

I'm gonna also guess that the Seagate DB drives and MX-1 Enclosures will be at the top of that list of "approved configurations". Time will tell, but I feel pretty certain they've been monitoring these threads and know which one's work and which one's are suspect. Not sure why I think they will choose the FAP but I just have a feeling they will. I can't see them re-inventing the wheel on this one.


----------



## Joybob

We require proof and screenshots.


----------



## sinanju

Joybob said:


> We require proof and screenshots.


And the reason you believe this to be inaccurate is what?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5603115&&#post5603115


----------



## Saturn

TiVoPony said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Yes, I'm swamped. Sorry, but hanging out on the forums, communicating with all of you just hasn't been possible as of late. Very busy times.
> 
> TiVoJerry is out of the office at the moment (and actually, I just got back into the office). He'll be back soon.
> 
> The 9.2 software is a Series3/TiVo HD only release, and just entered the 'test the waters' phase last night. It's going out to a small number of customers to measure the impact on the call centers. We do this with every release, it's part of the process leading to a wider, full scale rollout.
> 
> It does offer official support for verified eSATA devices. As the tivo.com/expand page says...more on that later.
> 
> There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes. Sorry if that bothers some, but trust that the average TiVo subscriber is not into the same level of detail as folks here on the forum. We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon. Beat the horse, but don't beat the Pony. Thx.
> 
> Don't expect to hear much out of us regarding this release for now...it's not released yet. It's just simmering...it'll be soup soon enough.
> 
> Pony


Let me translate:

1. We're busy fixing what we broke.
2. Ignore the bugs: look - new features! Features you all on this forum have had access to anyway. 
3. We're too lazy to put together even a simple list of things we added/fixed for our best and most loyal customers.
4. Don't hurt me, I'm just a PR guy.

  :down:

Yes, I'm extremely annoyed. A bug has been found that affects a wide range of S3 owners and causes them to, for the first time in TiVo history (that I know of) cause a TiVo to consistently record blank shows. What do we get? 'Oooo...lookie, new features...' No apology, no promise of a fix, no guarantee that 9.2 even addresses the problem. Just a bunch of level 1 CSRs swearing up and down that a problem doesn't exist and a few level 2 CSRs that actually seem to know what's going on but can't promise anything either.

Lets compare this to two recent incidents from companies with generally terrible customer support:

1. Sometime last year, Time Warner had a failed upgrade roll out to a bunch of cable boxes causing them to reboot infinitely. The phone lines were swamped and no immediate fix was available, according to the hold message when I called. The problem was fixed in under 24 hours and they actually called people (with an automated message) to tell them how to fix their box if it wasn't working.

2. I lost power for 4 hours during a huge thunderstorm. WE energies called me (with an automated message) the day after to apologize about the outage, and a number to call if my power wasn't back on. A few days later they called again (another automated message) to apologize again and gave a number to call if there were any questions or concerns.

Small glitches I can understand, and they will go mostly unnoticed by 95% of users. Cable cards randomly refusing to tune anything digital that can only be fixed by a reboot is one of those problems TiVo should be on their hands and knees begging for forgiveness over, especially if it is as widespread as the poll on this forum indicates.


----------



## davezatz

Joybob said:


> We require proof and screenshots.












http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-10/tivo-series3-hd-external-storage-arrives/

Can't tell you which drives are "blessed" or what happens to exisiting eSATA drives using Kickstart, but I did run four pics courtesy Christopher Walsh.


----------



## sinanju

Saturn said:


> Let me translate


Permission denied.

You may have a point, but a hat will cover that.

Try fewer words... with less tiresome...

Will you add any of that to the list of quotations in your sig?


----------



## Saturn

sinanju said:


> Permission denied.
> 
> You may have a point, but a hat will cover that.
> 
> Try fewer words... with less tiresome...


I'll simplify it just for you:

TiVo's official response to the many 9.1 problems has been virtually non-existant and that's unacceptable to me.


----------



## rodalpho

It wasn't virtually nonexistant, it was entirely nonexistant. They didn't acknowledge them at all. It's a very 90s way of dealing with customers; many companies these days have blogs, etc, where they interact directly with their userbase. They understand that releasing a good product doesn't guarantee mindshare and success and that while a small part of the whole, mindshare starts and ends with wacky internet enthusiasts posting on forums. TiVo's original product was _so_ good that they generated a cohesive community almost immediately and don't realize that they've been bleeding formerly fanatical customers ever since by essentially not acknowledging their existence.

You don't release changelogs, and there's no chance of that policy changing? Well, why not? It's a DVR, not a cure for cancer.


----------



## bkdtv

Seems to me that 9.2 is Tivo's official response to 9.1. 

Tivo's only "mistake" was to release 9.1 when they should have waited a few weeks for 9.2. Hindsight is always 20/20, though.


----------



## JonC24

I got 9.2 today for my Series 3. No issues noticed yet...


----------



## wmcbrine

I'm seeing no difference in 30-sec skip behavior with 9.2.J. But on a positive note, I didn't have to re-enter the code.


----------



## MickeS

moyekj said:


> From the screenshot above: So if it wasn't obvious already from the website message it certainly means only certain approved solutions are supported.


It certainly does NOT mean that. It means it includes "support for expandable storage solutions from TiVo partners". It doesn't mean "support for expandable storage solutions from TiVo partners and no support for anything else".


----------



## gweempose

I'm curious. Did anyone go straight from 8.3 to 9.2? Also, is there anyone who got 9.2 that *didn't* use the priority software request page?


----------



## moyekj

MickeS said:


> It certainly does NOT mean that. It means it includes "support for expandable storage solutions from TiVo partners". It doesn't mean "support for expandable storage solutions from TiVo partners and no support for anything else".


 I changed my mind and deleted my post - guess I wasn't quick enough...


----------



## formulaben

Has anyone found any bugs in 9.1/9.2 related to Tivo Desktop? I can transfer photos, but no video or audio.


----------



## richsadams

TiVoPony said:


> The 9.2 software is a Series3/TiVo HD only release, and just entered the 'test the waters' phase last night. It's going out to a small number of customers to measure the impact on the call centers. We do this with every release, it's part of the process leading to a wider, full scale rollout.


Thanks for the update Pony, its truly appreciated. :up:

I'm afraid I have to side with the others asking for more communication about updates, patches, fixes, etc. I thought you did a pretty good job covering the bases with the short-lived TiVo HD upgrades.

If no one is assigned the task of letting people here know that you're working on a new release to address fairly wide-spread problems, that's a marketing department mistake. We don't require a lot, just keep us somewhat in the loop...it'll reduce some blood letting in the future and would be very good all around P.R. for the company.


----------



## bareyb

wmcbrine said:


> I'm seeing no difference in 30-sec skip behavior with 9.2.J. But on a positive note, I didn't have to re-enter the code.


9.2 DIDN'T fix the 30 second skip problem? You're still seeing the static image? Anyone else have any reports on the 30 second skip fix? I had thought people were reporting it was fixed...


----------



## bicker

Saturn said:


> I've been here a WHILE and I agree with you 100%. TiVo's communication has gotten worse and worse over the years. A little forum post is all it would take "Fixes are coming soon." ... I'm in software development and our customers DEMAND those sorts of things before they upgrade.


I'm in software development too, and like me, you obviously don't make software for the mass-market. It's a bit presumptuous to expect our *contract B2B* experience to have any relevance to the *consumer-oriented B2C* experience. It doesn't. Not one bit. TiVo's communications challenges have more similarities with McDonald's selling of hamburgers to hungry consumers than it has with software being sold _to companies_.

So as a result, you're leaving out the half of the story where the customers string TiVo up because they give answers like "Fixes are coming soon" as you suggested. It is FAR better to say nothing than to do as you suggested.

Most companies communications with the mass-market have declined over the years, generally as a matter of containing cost. It is standard practice. You can get angry about it, but that won't change anything. Stop buying things, and get everyone else to do so, for these perceived slights, and then THAT will change something.


----------



## sinanju

Saturn said:


> I'll simplify it just for you:
> 
> TiVo's official response to the many 9.1 problems has been virtually non-existant and that's unacceptable to me.


Nope. You're still tiresome. No need to make any further effort on my part. I won't bother to reiterate what *bicker* documented so eloquently and so much more kindly than I would.


----------



## sinanju

wmcbrine said:


> I'm seeing no difference in 30-sec skip behavior with 9.2.J. But on a positive note, I didn't have to re-enter the code.


Odd, since it really is back to normal for me on my S3. Are you using an S3 or an HD?


----------



## RoyK

bicker said:


> ...... TiVo's communications challenges have more similarities with McDonald's selling of hamburgers to hungry consumers than it has with software being sold _to companies_.........


If McDonald's sold hamburgers that make a few of their customers sick, believe me they would quickly be spending millions to communicate with their customers what they are doing about the problem.

TiVo, on the other hand, would ignore the problem publicly, work in the background to find a new meat vendor and perhaps put out a new version of the Big Mac in the meantime and tout that they added another pickle.

Oh, and by the way McDonald's makes detailed info on the contents of their products easily available on their website.


----------



## kas25

TiVoPony said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Yes, I'm swamped. Sorry, but hanging out on the forums, communicating with all of you just hasn't been possible as of late. Very busy times.
> 
> TiVoJerry is out of the office at the moment (and actually, I just got back into the office). He'll be back soon.
> 
> The 9.2 software is a Series3/TiVo HD only release, and just entered the 'test the waters' phase last night. It's going out to a small number of customers to measure the impact on the call centers. We do this with every release, it's part of the process leading to a wider, full scale rollout.
> 
> It does offer official support for verified eSATA devices. As the tivo.com/expand page says...more on that later.
> 
> There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes. Sorry if that bothers some, but trust that the average TiVo subscriber is not into the same level of detail as folks here on the forum. We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon. Beat the horse, but don't beat the Pony. Thx.
> 
> Don't expect to hear much out of us regarding this release for now...it's not released yet. It's just simmering...it'll be soup soon enough.
> 
> Pony


Any fixes related to Rhapsody?


----------



## qili

bicker said:


> It is FAR better to say nothing than to do as you suggested


really? what software do you work on?

I just wanted to make sure that I am not within 10 ft of your software.


----------



## fredct

TiVoPony said:


> The 9.2 software is a Series3/TiVo HD only release, and just entered the 'test the waters' phase last night. It's going out to a small number of customers to measure the impact on the call centers. We do this with every release, it's part of the process leading to a wider, full scale rollout.


Pony, is it safe to say that you mean its *currently* a S3/HD only release,, but after the test phase will be made available elsewhere? The interface bugs effect the S2s as well, correct? Or do I need to spend a few hundred dollars on a HD in order to get bug fixes now?


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

wmcbrine said:


> I'm seeing no difference in 30-sec skip behavior with 9.2.J. But on a positive note, I didn't have to re-enter the code.


Seems like I read somewhere that if turned on in 9.1, the 30-sec skip will now persist through reboots.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

rodalpho said:


> It wasn't virtually nonexistant, it was entirely nonexistant. They didn't acknowledge them at all. It's a very 90s way of dealing with customers; many companies these days have blogs, etc, where they interact directly with their userbase. They understand that releasing a good product doesn't guarantee mindshare and success and that while a small part of the whole, mindshare starts and ends with wacky internet enthusiasts posting on forums. TiVo's original product was _so_ good that they generated a cohesive community almost immediately and don't realize that they've been bleeding formerly fanatical customers ever since by essentially not acknowledging their existence.
> 
> You don't release changelogs, and there's no chance of that policy changing? Well, why not? It's a DVR, not a cure for cancer.


Microsoft has so many patches that they have a _special day_ designated for releasing them each month...Patch Tuesday. Can you imagine if those were deployed with no documentation? Say what you want about Microsoft, but at least they tell you what they're (allegedly) fixing.

TiVo software is essentially the operating system for a piece of dedicated computer equipment, Linux underpinnings notwithstanding. Updates to an operating system should have a little more sunlight on it than what we're currently seeing.


----------



## sinanju

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Can you imagine if those were deployed with no documentation?


Yes. Not only can I imagine it, they do it. On the other hand, many critical hotfixes are on a request basis only and one often has to pay their support fee to get them.

MSFT is not the model you want to hold up as your example.


----------



## Laserfan

IMO it is reasonable for us Tivo customers to expect a detailed list of changes, even if it says sometimes "various bug fixes and cosmetic tweaks" whenever a software update has completed on our boxes. I'm talking about the Update message that is sent to our boxes themselves, with the update software. They know what they did, they can and SHOULD tell us what's changed. :up: 

I do NOT think that Tivo owes us any kind of advance notice or acknowledgement of problems, unless it/they are problems which affect ALL users. In any other circumstance a notice to the general Tivo population would unnecessarily alarm some customers. :down:


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

sinanju said:


> MSFT is not the model you want to hold up as your example.


Fair enough. I was merely citing a casual example because their patches _seem_ to have a lot of stuff available for reading for each one. Whether that information is actually useful to a patch-applying sysadmin is an exercise for the reader. 

And those secret bat cave patches for esoteric problems that you can only obtain through a paid support call is a pretty annoying concept.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

Laserfan said:


> IMO it is reasonable for us Tivo customers to expect a detailed list of changes, even if it says sometimes "various bug fixes and cosmetic tweaks" whenever a software update has completed on our boxes. I'm talking about the Update message that is sent to our boxes themselves, with the update software. They know what they did, they can and SHOULD tell us what's changed. :up:
> 
> I do NOT think that Tivo owes us any kind of advance notice or acknowledgement of problems, unless it/they are problems which affect ALL users. In any other circumstance a notice to the general Tivo population would unnecessarily alarm some customers. :down:


There should be a place tucked away in a dusty corner of TiVo's web site, not in obvious view to the casual site visitor but known among the TCF crowd, that documents these changes when they are made.

That way the typical user need not be alarmed by verbose technospeak messages on the TiVo box itself. The enthusiast user, like many of us here, can seek out this information by visiting this TiVo page, if it existed.


----------



## Laserfan

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> There should be a place tucked away in a dusty corner of TiVo's web site, not in obvious view to the casual site visitor but known among the TCF crowd, that documents these changes when they are made...


Well, that too, but still I think more information can & should be in the "Your software has been updated" messages.


----------



## cxn

gweempose said:


> I'm curious. Did anyone go straight from 8.3 to 9.2? Also, is there anyone who got 9.2 that *didn't* use the priority software request page?


I did!

I dont usually follow this forum but when I see a new update on my Tivo, I come here to see what 'goodies' I get.

Woke up and had 9.2.j1 on my system this morning.


----------



## rusty1963

gweempose said:


> I'm curious. Did anyone go straight from 8.3 to 9.2? Also, is there anyone who got 9.2 that *didn't* use the priority software request page?


I received the 9.2 update Monday night. I went straight from 8.17 to 9.2 on my Tivo HD. Nope I didn't ask for it or sign up on the priority page either.

I was not having any issues prior to 9.2 with macro blocking, pixelation or anything else. I am using 1 Mcard from Comcast in Houston which installed without problem the first time and has worked without problems for the past 2 months. I also have an UHF antenna hooked up to receive OTA digital which is still working great. I have upgraded the internal drive to 750 DB35 from Seagate.

From my perspective there is noticeable improvement in the 30 second skip and speed in the grid guide. The main menu has changed combing messages and settings.


----------



## Saturn

bicker said:


> I'm in software development too, and like me, you obviously don't make software for the mass-market. It's a bit presumptuous to expect our *contract B2B* experience to have any relevance to the *consumer-oriented B2C* experience. It doesn't. Not one bit. TiVo's communications challenges have more similarities with McDonald's selling of hamburgers to hungry consumers than it has with software being sold _to companies_.


To reiterate the Microsoft argument, even Microsoft tells us what's in each update. Granted you may have to dig to find it, and *some* details (how to reproduce) are left out for security reasons, the basics are all there. The normal joe-blow user will just see that something or other was updated and the computer was restarted. Those of us who want to can block the updates, delay their install, install at our leisure, and go get details on every single update.

Need more examples? iTunes. It isn't in your face, but there's a shortcut to "About iTunes" put in your start menu that contains at least a brief explaination of the bugs that were fixed, like this:



> iTunes 7.3.1 addresses a minor problem with iTunes 7.3 accessing the iTunes Library.


If iTunes isn't software designed for the masses, I don't know what is.

iPod updates aren't quite as forthcoming, unfortunately. 



> Features of iPod Software 1.1 for iPod, iPod Software 1.1 for iPod nano:
> 
> • Support for the iPod Radio Remote
> • Bug fixes


----------



## dolfer

Anything about a fix for the lengthy audio drops after pausing/rewinding/ff when using Dolby Digital audio???


----------



## George Cifranci

Maybe something like what Linksys does when they upgrade firmware on their products...

http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Sate...1130871131659&ssbinary=true&lid=1499961879B77


----------



## sinanju

Saturn said:


> To reiterate the Microsoft argument, even Microsoft tells us what's in each update.


No, it doesn't.



Saturn said:


> Those of us who want to can block the updates, delay their install, install at our leisure, and go get details on every single update.


No, you can't.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/09/microsofts_stealth_update_come.html

And that isn't the first, nor is it the only stealth update Microsoft has pushed.

Sorry... you're just wrong. Like I said, MSFT is not the example folks seem to think it is.


----------



## Saturn

sinanju said:


> No, it doesn't.
> 
> No, you can't.
> 
> http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2007/09/microsofts_stealth_update_come.html
> 
> And that isn't the first, nor is it the only stealth update Microsoft has pushed.
> 
> Sorry... you're just wrong. Like I said, MSFT is not the example folks seem to think it is.


Ok, for 99% of the updates Microsoft releases, you can get detailed information. Microsoft is facing the consequences of their stealth update right now.

I didn't say Microsoft was perfect, but certainly closer to ideal than what TiVo does.


----------



## sinanju

Saturn said:


> Ok, for 99% of the updates Microsoft releases, you can get detailed information.


For some unknown percentage of updates Microsoft releases, you get some amount of information that Microsoft decides that you need. Another unknown percentage of updates that Microsoft releases have no detail at all. A further unknown percentage of critical updates you need are held back on a request-only basis and often cost money.

But, don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.


----------



## Joybob

sinanju said:


> For some unknown percentage of updates Microsoft releases, you get some amount of information that Microsoft decides that you need. Another unknown percentage of updates that Microsoft releases have no detail at all. A further unknown percentage of critical updates you need are held back on a request-only basis and often cost money.
> 
> But, don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.


You guys are totally off topic.

When will there be a 9.2 priority page?


----------



## qili

sinanju said:


> For some unknown percentage of updates Microsoft releases, you get some amount of information that Microsoft decides that you need.


well, at least there is something from microsoft. That's infinitely better than nothing from TiVo.


----------



## Saturn

sinanju said:


> For some unknown percentage of updates Microsoft releases, you get some amount of information that Microsoft decides that you need. Another unknown percentage of updates that Microsoft releases have no detail at all. A further unknown percentage of critical updates you need are held back on a request-only basis and often cost money.
> 
> But, don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.


Now you're just wrong. Requesting a hotfix from microsoft doesn't cost money. Yes, you need to call in, but if you call in specifically stating you are calling to get a particular hotfix, you don't need to provide any payment information. I've done it.

But you know, facts and all that.

But rather than arguing what Microsoft does and does not do, how about what TiVo SHOULD be doing?


----------



## Saturn

qili said:


> well, at least there is something from microsoft. That's infinitely better than nothing from TiVo.


Exactly my point.


----------



## carroca

Joybob said:


> When will there be a 9.2 priority page?


As 9.2 is only for S3/THD boxes, it might not get a priority page at all since the number of these units is still probably small enough that the update can be sent to all of them within a short period of time. They've done it this way in the past for S3/THD-only updates. I am however hoping that this update will be extended to S2 boxes soon because they are not immune to the bugs introduced in 9.1 and even non-techies such as my wife are annoyed by them so there is a large demand for fixes from the huge S2 user-base.


----------



## Revolutionary

carroca said:


> As 9.2 is only for S3/THD boxes, it might not get a priority page at all since the number of these units is still probably small enough that the update can be sent to all of them within a short period of time. They've done it this way in the past for S3/THD-only updates. I am however hoping that this update will be extended to S2 boxes soon because they are not immune to the bugs introduced in 9.1 and even non-techies such as my wife are annoyed by them so there is a large demand for fixes from the huge S2 user-base.


Keep in mind, though, that its still not clear whether 9.2 is intended to fix any bugs at all. It may be a planned launch intended to bring better Unbox integration and eSATA support. The n so far is too small for us to have a clear understanding of what is in this release.

Bottom line: be prepared for it to not fix your bugs, because it might not.


----------



## bicker

RoyK said:


> If McDonald's sold hamburgers that make a few of their customers sick, believe me they would quickly be spending millions to communicate with their customers what they are doing about the problem.


TiVo is not selling hamburgers that make their customers sick. Rather, some of their customers are making up a sickness. TiVos aren't ingested, and any impact they have on your body is self-inflicted.



RoyK said:


> Oh, and by the way McDonald's makes detailed info on the contents of their products easily available on their website.


No question that McDonald's is a first-rate operation. What I wrote was that the communication challenges that TiVo faces is MORE LIKE the communications challenges faced by McDonald's than it is like that faces by B2B contracts. I hope that clears up your confusion.

McDonald's handles the challenges better than TiVo, as well they should since they're 1800 TIMES LARGER than TiVo.


----------



## bicker

qili said:


> really? what software do you work on?
> 
> I just wanted to make sure that I am not within 10 ft of your software.


I don't work in the B2C arena, which is what we were talking about.

Please pay attention!


----------



## bicker

Saturn said:


> To reiterate the Microsoft argument, even Microsoft tells us what's in each update.


TiVo: Has lost money every quarter except one during its entire history.
Microsoft: Consistently very profitable.

Here's another relevant datum:

TiVo: 250 people. 
Microsoft: 79,000 people.

There is no question in my mind that Microsoft is a top-notch software provider, among the best in the world, despite what a lot of people would like others to believe. TiVo's strength has always been their unique product (no one else provides anything comparable). If TiVo had competition, or were the size of Microsoft, I bet it would be reasonable to expect better service from them.



Saturn said:


> Need more examples? iTunes.


Apple: 18,000 people
Apple: 9.97% profit margin
Apple: $19 Billion revenue per year


----------



## Saturn

bicker said:


> There is no question in my mind that Microsoft is a top-notch software provider, among the best in the world, despite what a lot of people would like others to believe. TiVo's strength has always been their unique product (no one else provides anything comparable). If TiVo had competition, or were the size of Microsoft, I bet it would be reasonable to expect better service from them.


I can't tell if you're making excuses for TiVo or agreeing with me.


----------



## qili

bicker said:


> I don't work in the B2C arena, which is what we were talking about.


I didn't say that my desire to stay away from your piece of software is limited to any particular area.

Please pay attention!


----------



## mportuesi

This is what I meant earlier in this thread when I said it's a crime in this forum to suggest that TiVo better communicate with its customers. This same discussion comparing Tivo with Microsoft, Apple, et al. happened in the last thread, with the same results. Everyone who dares criticize TiVo is run out of town.

I want to know how putting together a set of release notes for the "techie" subset of the TiVo user community hurts *anyone*. Especially since the "techies" in this forum are the people who are most loyal to TiVo and have done the most to evangelize TiVo through word-of-mouth. If you were TiVo, wouldn't you want to do just a little bit extra to make them happy?


----------



## qili

bicker said:


> TiVo's strength has always been their unique product (no one else provides anything comparable). If TiVo had competition, or were the size of Microsoft, I bet it would be reasonable to expect better service from them.


could you please check in with TiVo to confirm the "fact" that TiVo didn't have competition?

I am sure they would vehemently disagree with you.


----------



## qili

mportuesi said:


> If you were TiVo, wouldn't you want to do just a little bit extra to make them happy?


Yes, if you assume that TiVo is rational, which may not be true.


----------



## sinanju

mportuesi said:


> This is what I meant earlier in this thread when I said it's a crime in this forum to suggest that TiVo better communicate with its customers. This same discussion comparing Tivo with Microsoft, Apple, et al. happened in the last thread, with the same results. Everyone who dares criticize TiVo is run out of town.


Personally, I never said that TiVo shouldn't publish release notes. In fact, I wish they would.

My only point, and I stick by that point, is that MSFT is a _seriously_ bad example of how you would want TiVo to behave with respect to updates.


----------



## kmill14

So for those who want release notes published somewhere, what answer was generated from your last call to tech support asking for this and when did you make that call?


----------



## Monty2_2001

My S3 is still 8.3.1-01-2-648. Sure seems that the rollouts lately are slooowwwww and non inclusive.


----------



## rodalpho

Count yourself lucky. You don't want 9.1. Hopefully you'll skip right to 9.2.


----------



## Saturn

sinanju said:


> Personally, I never said that TiVo shouldn't publish release notes. In fact, I wish they would.
> 
> My only point, and I stick by that point, is that MSFT is a _seriously_ bad example of how you would want TiVo to behave with respect to updates.


Personally, I think the way Microsoft handles updates would be 10x better than how TiVo handles them. No, Microsoft isn't perfect either, but it is at least a decent direction for TiVo to head.

Microsoft:
1. You can go get the updates from the web site semi-automatically (windows update) manually (for corporate use) or automatically have them pushed to your computer.
2. Once pushed, you can choose to install them now or later, automatically or manually.
3. Each update is associated with a knowledgebase article describing at least vaguely what it updates and why.
4. You can uninstall updates if they cause a problem for you.
5. They occasionally push an update without the knowledge or consent of the user and are being torn a new one for it.
6. There are a few updates that must be requested manually, for a while, if you determine that you need such an update. You must call into Microsoft for these updates and then they are e-mailed to you free of charge. These updates almost always are turned into general release updates or rolled into the next service pack once they are more thoroughly tested.

TiVo
1. You get the update when you get it.
2. You can sign up for a priority page once general rollout begins, which may speed your update by a week or two. 
3. You can't opt out of an update.
4. The update only contains a note on new features, any bug fixes must be derived by the community.
5. Calling to check on the status of a bug is an effort in futility with level 1 CSRs that claim you're the first one to report it, and level 2 CSRs that, after prodding, admit there's an issue, and update may or may not be coming and they can't make any claims on what software verisons may or may not fix which bugs.
6. They routinely push updates without the consent of the user, provide no way to revert, and aren't forthcoming with any information on bugs when they are inadvertantly introduced nor when they are fixed or will be fixed.
7. You may randomly be selected to test a pre-release version to "to measure the impact on the call centers."


----------



## kmill14

Saturn, you could go on all day long on this board I'm sure. How many calls have you made to Tivo today to discuss this issue?


----------



## Saturn

kmill14 said:


> Saturn, you could go on all day long on this board I'm sure. How many calls have you made to Tivo today to discuss this issue?


None. I don't have the patience to deal with level 1 CSRs that refuse to escalate issues unless poked and prodded repeatidly. What purpose would calling in serve? I already know TiVo's official response.


----------



## richsadams

Revolutionary said:


> Keep in mind, though, that its still not clear whether 9.2 is intended to fix any bugs at all. It may be a planned launch intended to bring better Unbox integration and eSATA support. The n so far is too small for us to have a clear understanding of what is in this release.
> 
> Bottom line: be prepared for it to not fix your bugs, because it might not.


Well...not entirely true. Quoting from TiVoPony's earlier post...



> There are other goodies in the release too, features and *bug fixes* alike.


(Bold mine)

The question is...will these "bug fixes" fix everything people are complaining about?  Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Here is a list of the bugs that have been reportedly fixed by v9.2.j so far.


----------



## RoyK

bicker said:


> TiVo is not selling hamburgers that make their customers sick. Rather, some of their customers are making up a sickness. TiVos aren't ingested, and any impact they have on your body is self-inflicted.


No, they're selling software that makes their customer's boxes sick.



bicker said:


> No question that McDonald's is a first-rate operation. What I wrote was that the communication challenges that TiVo faces is MORE LIKE the communications challenges faced by McDonald's than it is like that faces by B2B contracts. I hope that clears up your confusion.


I'm not at all confused.


bicker said:


> McDonald's handles the challenges better than TiVo, as well they should since they're 1800 TIMES LARGER than TiVo.


McDonald's got to be that big by the product they sell, how they sell it, and how they handle the challanges.


----------



## bicker

Saturn said:


> I can't tell if you're making excuses for TiVo or agreeing with me.


Neither.


----------



## kmill14

Saturn said:


> None. I don't have the patience to deal with level 1 CSRs that refuse to escalate issues unless poked and prodded repeatidly. What purpose would calling in serve? I already know TiVo's official response.


Who knows why Tivo doesn't produce release notes. It doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I can tell you this though...its doubtful they will react to rants on a message board unless they feel it is absolutely necessary. If you are going to rant on a message board and continue to use their product, they won't lose sleep. But if you are going to drop Tivo for "name your provider here"'s product, then they would perk up more.

However, while this board probably gets a lot of anonymous traffic from the customer base, its only a small portion that is the vocal part and wants to change the world. Thats what they think I am sure.

All that said, I think release notes is a nice thing to do....DTV does it (through non-employees it seems) on dbstalk, but at least they do it.

Perhaps Tivo has a very valid reason for not releasing them...but you won't find out unless you keep escalating up the chain.


----------



## bicker

mportuesi said:


> This is what I meant earlier in this thread when I said it's a crime in this forum to suggest that TiVo better communicate with its customers.


I think you're missing the point. No one is saying it is a crime to suggest that. Rather, there is simply no foundation to expect it. BIG difference.



mportuesi said:


> I want to know how putting together a set of release notes for the "techie" subset of the TiVo user community hurts *anyone*.


It costs money, for starters. We have a dedicated Documentation Specialist on our team, who spends about two weeks for EACH major release taking the list of engineering changes implemented and bugs fixed in the release and writing Release Notes from them. If you think that this is a two minute job, then please accept that you simply don't understand what is involved.


----------



## bicker

qili said:


> could you please check in with TiVo to confirm the "fact" that TiVo didn't have competition?


I don't need to. TiVo's three competitors have all ceased production of their competitive products.


----------



## bicker

Saturn said:


> None.


So in other words, chatting about it online is cheap and an easy way to vent your frustration, but you really don't feel strongly about this to make a point of it with the only people who matter.


----------



## mportuesi

kmill14 said:


> Perhaps Tivo has a very valid reason for not releasing them...but you won't find out unless you keep escalating up the chain.


We already have a conduit to TiVo in this forum. Several TiVo employees read these forums. They already are hearing what we have to say. Why do we need to work through the customer service reps, who really exist to resolve specific problems and don't work to set TiVo policy?

Like the rest of us, I'm a very busy person. I don't have enough time in my life to do all the things I enjoy doing. That's a big reason why I have a TiVo. Why should I spend my precious time on an escalation quest with the TiVo CSRs to convince them to do something that makes common sense? All of a sudden, the time savings and convenience my TiVo provides has just gone out the window, and I'd be better off ditching my TiVo altogether.

8.3.1 worked just fine on my Series 3. I had absolutlely no complaints. Then TiVo dumped the craptastic 9.1 release on my system against my wishes, and doesn't even feel the need to be courteous and tell me what they've changed. This isn't "TV my way".... it's "TV TiVo's Way" and for me it's easily the worst aspect of their service.


----------



## bicker

RoyK said:


> No, they're selling software that makes their customer's boxes sick.


Which is an utterly meaningless sentence. Boxes don't get sick. Rather, what you're doing is trying to link a very serious issue with a very trivial issue, by using loaded, emotional language (sickness).


----------



## gibbyscott

I went from 8.1 straight to 9.2... I just got my TivoHD 4 days ago 



gweempose said:


> I'm curious. Did anyone go straight from 8.3 to 9.2? Also, is there anyone who got 9.2 that *didn't* use the priority software request page?


----------



## formulaben

Why don't you guys take this *off topic* banter somewhere else... :down:


----------



## kmill14

gibbyscott said:


> I went from 8.1 straight to 9.2... I just got my TivoHD 4 days ago


Someone with 9.2 should test the progressive play feature for Amazon downloads and see if it actually works.


----------



## formulaben

gibbyscott said:


> I went from 8.1 straight to 9.2... I just got my TivoHD 4 days ago


That's good news. Mine went straight from 8.1 to 9.1...I'll keep forcing updates and keep my fingers crossed.


----------



## bareyb

All I wanna know is did 9.2 fix 30 second skip or not?


----------



## formulaben

dolfer said:


> Anything about a fix for the lengthy audio drops after pausing/rewinding/ff when using Dolby Digital audio???


Yeah, this is a bit much. I counted many instances and they ranged from 1 to 2.5 seconds! That's a long time (but I'm still on 9.1 though...)


----------



## Saturn

bicker said:


> So in other words, chatting about it online is cheap and an easy way to vent your frustration, but you really don't feel strongly about this to make a point of it with the only people who matter.


Calling a level 1 CSR is complaining to the wrong person. Even getting escalated to level 2 isn't the right person. They are given their instructions and bugging them for more information (does 9.2 fix such-and-such) isn't going to help. TiVo's decision to keep its customers in the dark about updates, bugs, and bug fixes is a corporate-level decision (that I strongly doubt will change anytime soon.)

If I could get my point across to the right people, I would.

My hope at this point is that the right TiVo employee reads these forums, but as they've already demonstrated, TiVo considers the members these forums a very small, unimportant minority of their users. The CEO of TiVo would think the same thing if I could talk directly to him/her.

So yea, I'm just venting because that's all I can do.


----------



## richsadams

Joybob said:


> You guys are totally off topic.
> 
> When will there be a 9.2 priority page?


Historically the TiVo Priority Page has updated when they begin rolling out the final version of the latest upgrade. Since v9.2.j is in trial, it may be two to three weeks...possibly less possibly more...before v9.2 is released and the page is updated. It all depends on the feedback they get from the folks that receive the trial version.


----------



## mportuesi

bicker said:


> It costs money, for starters. We have a dedicated Documentation Specialist on our team, who spends about two weeks for EACH major release taking the list of engineering changes implemented and bugs fixed in the release and writing Release Notes from them. If you think that this is a two minute job, then please accept that you simply don't understand what is involved.


I've been a software engineer for over 18 years, eight years of that working at a systems vendor that routinely produced release notes for its operating system releases. I've personally written release notes for many of those releases. I daresay I know what is involved at least as well as you do.

I think the expense incurred is well worth it, given the frequency of TiVo's updates, and TiVo's relationship with its customers. Especially given that the S3/HD crowd at this moment contains a higher-than-average population of early adopters and "techie" customers.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

bicker said:


> Which is an utterly meaningless sentence. Boxes don't get sick. Rather, what you're doing is trying to link a very serious issue with a very trivial issue, by using loaded, emotional language (sickness).


It's a figure of speech! "My computer is sick. I think I need to reinstall Windows." Suddenly this type of usage is offensive to people with legitimate illnesses? Come on! People make such anthropomorphisms all the time.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

mportuesi said:


> I've been a software engineer for over 18 years, eight years of that working at a systems vendor that routinely produced release notes for its operating system releases. I've personally written release notes for many of those releases. I daresay I know what is involved at least as well as you do.
> 
> I think the expense incurred is well worth it, given the frequency of TiVo's updates, and TiVo's relationship with its customers. Especially given that the S3/HD crowd at this moment contains a higher-than-average population of early adopters and "techie" customers.


Precisely. It just seems like they could be a bit more forthcoming with technical information to appease their most eager fans. That doesn't seem like it would be a burden since I'm sure they have internal documentation to that effect anyway. Couldn't that be cleaned up or summarized for outsider consumption and posted? Of course it could. Good grief, I don't want the source code; just a few sentences describing the changes!

That is typically the case for some dude working solo in his basement on a popular shareware/freeware program that he developed all the way up to ubiquitous products like Windows and iPods.

You'd think acknowledging what a certain update is intended to do would reduce their call volumes and get people off their back a little.

It's absurd to get excoriated for mentioning some of these things around here.


----------



## Revolutionary

richsadams said:


> Well...not entirely true. Quoting from TiVoPony's earlier post...
> 
> (Bold mine)
> 
> The question is...will these "bug fixes" fix everything people are complaining about?  Let's keep our fingers crossed.
> 
> Here is a list of the bugs that have been reportedly fixed by v9.2.j so far.


That doesn't change the effect of my post, actually. Pony only said "bug fixes;" he didn't say what bugs were fixed. Perhaps bugs that 1% of subscribers were experiencing prior to 9.1. Without notes, we don't know. I was trying to get folks ready for the distinct possibility that nothing in 9.2 is intended to fix any behaviors that may or may not have been brought on by 9.1.

Also, it could be entirely coincidence that those who are reporting various bugs as "fixed" are no longer experiencing problems. I don't have *any* of the bugs on that list with my S3; the same "randomness" factor could acount for the miraculous disappearance of the problems for 1 or 2 users. Only time (or release notes) will tell.


----------



## Koan

bicker said:


> I don't need to. TiVo's three competitors have all ceased production of their competitive products.


  Anyone notify the cable and satellite companies?


----------



## jtown

TiVoPony said:


> There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes. Sorry if that bothers some, but trust that the average TiVo subscriber is not into the same level of detail as folks here on the forum. We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon. Beat the horse, but don't beat the Pony.


Fine. I'll beat the horse.

While I appreciate getting a bit of information about product updates, lowering the amount of available information to a level that can be digested by every customer is lame. I don't care what is good enough for the average subscriber. If I was average, I'd be...well...average. What's the point of that? I shouldn't have to scour forums and read dozens of posts about each update trying to determine WTF was changed. That's stupid.

COMMUNICATE WITH YOUR CUSTOMERS

Provide a list of bug fixes.
Provide a list of new features.

It's not that hard. I'm not asking for more than bullet points.

- Fixed pixelation problems with second cable card.
- Fixed menu navigation problem experienced when returning from episode detail to program list.

Simple lists. Each of the items must have a short summary in the engineering documents. Just take the summaries and copy them to a list. Post the list on your website, and provide a link to the list under service and support.

What does Tivo have to gain by withholding this information from their customers?


----------



## kmill14

mportuesi said:


> I think the expense incurred is well worth it, given the frequency of TiVo's updates, and TiVo's relationship with its customers. Especially given that the S3/HD crowd at this moment contains a higher-than-average population of early adopters and "techie" customers.


How do you define the value Tivo gets out of doing it or not? It is obviously worth it for you the fringe customer, but what does Tivo get? If you say "a happy customer", I say BS. They released a bad version with 9.1, and if it came with release notes, guess what...people would still be unhappy.

I understand nobody likes to go through escalation hell, but if you really want to get answers, this isn't the place for it. You're either going to drive yourself mad, get over it, stew a long time then get over it, or you're going to rant and rave for as long as it takes on the phone with Tivo. Take your pick.


----------



## qili

> We do what we can, but detailed release notes are not on the horizon.


that's sounds like "my way or highway".

I know where my next $299 will NOT go.


----------



## richsadams

Revolutionary said:


> That doesn't change the effect of my post, actually. Pony only said "bug fixes;" he didn't say what bugs were fixed. Perhaps bugs that 1% of subscribers were experiencing prior to 9.1. Without notes, we don't know. I was trying to get folks ready for the distinct possibility that nothing in 9.2 is intended to fix any behaviors that may or may not have been brought on by 9.1.
> 
> Also, it could be entirely coincidence that those who are reporting various bugs as "fixed" are no longer experiencing problems. I don't have *any* of the bugs on that list with my S3; the same "randomness" factor could acount for the miraculous disappearance of the problems for 1 or 2 users. Only time (or release notes) will tell.


So we agree! :up:


----------



## mportuesi

kmill14 said:


> How do you define the value Tivo gets out of doing it or not? It is obviously worth it for you the fringe customer,


Right now, I'll bet most S3 and HD owners are "fringe customers" and this update is being directed solely at them.



kmill14 said:


> but what does Tivo get? If you say "a happy customer", I say BS. They released a bad version with 9.1, and if it came with release notes, guess what...people would still be unhappy.


Perhaps not as unhappy as they were before.

I know that I really appreciate the community-written release note threads that appear here on TCF upon each release. I really like the summary of what changed, what's better, what's worse, and I'm thankful for the people who take the time to produce those lists. But those notes are checklist items that any consumer electronics vendor should make available to interested parties.

Believe it or not, I know plenty of geeks who don't own TiVo's, and this kind of feedback would make it easier for me to sell them on TiVo's service.



kmill14 said:


> I understand nobody likes to go through escalation hell, but if you really want to get answers, this isn't the place for it. You're either going to drive yourself mad, get over it, stew a long time then get over it, or you're going to rant and rave for as long as it takes on the phone with Tivo. Take your pick.


Both Saturn and I have pointed out that the CSR organization is not intended to be a feedback mechanism for decisions regarding company policy. It's a very focused call center with people staffed to resolve specific operational issues (defective equipment, billing, etc) as quick as possible. Calling and badgering CSR staff over this issue is a waste of everyone's time.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

People simply want information about something that is not working/flowing/going smoothly and is out of their control. What is perhaps the most infuriating thing about airline travel hassles? The lack of timely, accurate information about the disruption that tells you what's going to happen next to get you on your way to Grandma's house. Alright, alright, another tangent within a larger tangent. I beg forgiveness.

Yes, it's just television, but people value their entertainment tools and want them to function as advertised.


----------



## Revolutionary

richsadams said:


> So we agree! :up:




Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't.

I'm predicting a virtual riot when 9.2 hits wider release and people are still having cable card or 30-second skip problems, so I guess I'm trying to start calming the general TCF populous (not you in particular) down now! Adjusted expectations and all that...


----------



## ah30k

qili said:


> that's sounds like "my way or highway".
> 
> I know where my next $299 will NOT go.


I can't believe someone would make a purchase decision on the lack of release notes 

Which competitors provide them? Mot? SA? Comcast?


----------



## kmill14

Revolutionary said:


> Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't.
> 
> I'm predicting a virtual riot when 9.2 hits wider release and people are still having cable card or 30-second skip problems, so I guess I'm trying to start calming the general TCF populous (not you in particular) down now! Adjusted expectations and all that...


I honestly think that the 9.1 release was purposely a stepping stone to the 9.2 release. Bugs aside, I think there is a lot going on with version 9, and they did not want to rush into the entire feature-set until they felt they were ready.

Hopefully the bug fixes are not replaced by a greater number of new bugs, but with these new features Pony has hinted at, there will certainly be new bugs to deal with.


----------



## richsadams

Revolutionary said:


> Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't.
> 
> I'm predicting a virtual riot when 9.2 hits wider release and people are still having cable card or 30-second skip problems, so I guess I'm trying to start calming the general TCF populous (not you in particular) down now! Adjusted expectations and all that...


Understood. We noticed a bit more macroblocking and a couple of audio dropouts on our S3...nothing on the S2's and certainly nothing like a lot of folks are experiencing after the v9.1 upgrade.

I'm a bit more optimistic as there were bugs w/v8.1 that were fixed w/v8.3 and based on the early posts it looks like they're addressing the latest v9.1 bugs with v9.1.j. They also did a pretty good job of fixing the bugs that the early THD software had as well. But it remains to be seen if they catch everything with the latest upgrade once it rolls out.

Knock on wood (touching head).


----------



## bicker

mportuesi said:


> I think the expense incurred is well worth it


Worth it to whom?

To Us? You bet... as long as it doesn't increase our price or makes releases take longer.

To TiVo? Evidently not, and your 18 years of experience plus my 22 years of experience doesn't trump TiVo's managers' judgment in that regard.

I think you're perceptions of "us" are off-kilter.


----------



## bicker

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> It's a figure of speech!


That's the problem. In the part of the analogy talking about McDonald's, it was NOT a figure of speech. The sense of urgency was evoked based on the fact that actual real human sickness was involved. Therefore, the analogy *fails*. That was the point I made.


----------



## bicker

Koan said:


> Anyone notify the cable and satellite companies?


They already know. That's why several of them are working WITH TiVo.


----------



## bicker

kmill14 said:


> How do you define the value Tivo gets out of doing it or not? It is obviously worth it for you the fringe customer, but what does Tivo get? If you say "a happy customer", *I say BS*. They released a bad version with 9.1, and if it came with release notes, guess what...*people would still be unhappy*.


Indeed, and they would have even more fuel for their fire.



kmill14 said:


> I understand nobody likes to go through escalation hell, but if you really want to get answers, this isn't the place for it. You're either going to drive yourself mad, get over it, stew a long time then get over it, or you're going to rant and rave for as long as it takes on the phone with Tivo. Take your pick.


 :up: :up:


----------



## bicker

qili said:


> I know where my next $299 will NOT go.


Famous last words. I wonder how many times we've seen that sort of thing posting online (not just about TiVo, but really, anything) where 3-4 years later the same person (perhaps posting under another name ) is complaining about something else.


----------



## formulaben

Like "bicker1"


----------



## bicker

Nah, I've never made any statements implying that "I'm leaving and never coming back..." like that. Must have me confused with someone else. I am typically pretty consistent with my hardcore, realistic perspective.


----------



## RoyK

bicker said:


> That's the problem. In the part of the analogy talking about McDonald's, it was NOT a figure of speech. The sense of urgency was evoked based on the fact that actual real human sickness was involved. Therefore, the analogy *fails*. That was the point I made.


----------



## formulaben

bicker said:


> Nah, I've never made any statements implying that "I'm leaving and never coming back..." like that. Must have me confused with someone else. I am typically pretty consistent with my hardcore, realistic perspective.


HEY SPOCK, IT'S CALLED A JOKE!!


----------



## bareyb

Revolutionary said:


> Yes, I didn't mean to suggest that we don't.
> 
> I'm predicting a virtual riot when 9.2 hits wider release and people are still having cable card or 30-second skip problems, so I guess I'm trying to start calming the general TCF populous (not you in particular) down now! Adjusted expectations and all that...


Yeah. I have to tell you, if 30 second skip is still messed up after the 9.2 update I'm going to be absolutely disgusted with this whole mess. It's one thing to mess something up, but then to release a "fix" that supposedly fixes the problem only to find out it doesn't fix MY problem is really going to push me away.

I'll always try to keep TiVo as my DVR software of choice, but I'm beginning to lose my enthusiasm for the product. Hopefully once they get a working Comcast box Tivo will be more likely to stay on top of the fixes since the "customer" will no longer be "the lunatic fringe" (us) but will be Comcast (aka the "deep pockets with the big paycheck"). I'm guessing once Comcast is buttering their bread they will likely be more forthcoming with everything. Including release notes and less buggy software releases. Hopefully...


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

bicker said:


> That's the problem. In the part of the analogy talking about McDonald's, it was NOT a figure of speech. The sense of urgency was evoked based on the fact that actual real human sickness was involved. Therefore, the analogy *fails*. That was the point I made.


Fair enough. But the original poster's supposition about how McDonald's and TiVo, were they both in the burger business, would handle a meat problem was still amusing.


----------



## qili

bicker said:


> That's the problem. In the part of the analogy talking about McDonald's, it was NOT a figure of speech. The sense of urgency was evoked based on the fact that actual real human sickness was involved. Therefore, the analogy fails. That was the point I made.


both McDonald's and TiVo need happy customers to sustain their business model and to make money for their shareholders.

From that point of view, not being able to please their customers and meet and exceed their expectation would doom either organization equally fast.

In that regard, the analogy is right on.


----------



## Saturn

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Fair enough. But the original poster's supposition about how McDonald's and TiVo, were they both in the burger business, would handle a meat problem was still amusing.


Mmmmm. Pickles.

What were we talking about again?


----------



## madoverlord

My 2 cents on TiVo's silly reluctance to document bugfixes and acknowledge problems: *they are costing themselves money*.

When you refuse to acknowledge a problem, and leave your customers in the dark, guess what they do? They call for tech support. Each one of those calls costs TiVo money. OTOH, having a page on the website that lists the current "known problems" would reduce the call volume - not to mention the aggravation of having to spend 30 minutes on the phone with a CSR who can do nothing but tell me she doesn't, in the immortal words of Norman Chad, know squadoosh.

Making it possible to enter your TiVo serial number and check off the known problems you are encountering would be even better -- it would produce useful information (gee: all the people reporting cable-card problems have this version of the TiVo S3 motherboard, and s-cards, how interesting...) and give TiVo a list of the machines they might want to push a test version to.

Not to mention, many of those tech support calls are going to the cable companies, not to TiVo. Is it any wonder the cable companies don't like TiVo, given that TiVo-caused issues like the macroblocking and cable-card dropping are costing them millions in service call costs? I had the cable guys in 3 times trying to diagnose problems that now seem to clearly be TiVo-related, not cable-related. How much does 3 hours of cable-guy time cost? $100? $200?

Giving details on what bugs are fixed in the new versions is also a no-brainer. Why? Because if you think you fixed a bug, but people are still seeing it, you need to know. So a similar page that lists all the bugs fixed in a release, with checkboxes that let you tell TiVo that you still have a particular problem, would produce mounds of useful information.

Oh, and there's the minor matter of it being good PR...


----------



## davezatz

bicker said:


> TiVo: 250 people.
> Microsoft: 79,000 people.
> Apple: 18,000 people


Thought it was closer to 450? Which doesn't change your point, but I thought I should contribute something to the release notes and patch cycle tangent.


----------



## astrohip

TiVoPony said:


> There are other goodies in the release too, features and bug fixes alike. Nope, we do not provide release notes.
> Pony


I love the juxtaposition of these sentences. Can someone tell me *how* I will know what the goodies are, when there aren't any release notes?


----------



## CharlesH

astrohip said:


> I love the juxtaposition of these sentences. Can someone tell me *how* I will know what the goodies are, when there aren't any release notes?


Wait for the folks on this forum to empirically determine what was fixed, what was not fixed, what new bugs have been introduced, and what features have been tweaked. Just like for all previous versions. 

Since only new significant features are ever mentioned in the "you have a new update" message, this would seem to mean that they have to toss at least one new feature in every update, even if it is really just an urgent bug fix release. Otherwise, customers would wonder why they got this update for no apparent reason.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

CharlesH said:


> Wait for the folks on this forum to empirically determine what was fixed, what was not fixed, what new bugs have been introduced, and what features have been tweaked. Just like for all previous versions.
> 
> Since only new significant features are ever mentioned in the "you have a new update" message, this would seem to mean that they have to toss at least one new feature in every update, even if it is really just an urgent bug fix release. Otherwise, customers would wonder why they got this update for no apparent reason.


That's right! Who needs an authoritative list? We've established that no software company on the face of the earth documents software changes, that it is cost-prohibitive to do so, does nothing to endear the enthusiast community to the product, and would only be utilized by 0.0001% of the overall owner population out there anyway.

It's much more efficient to let that nosy handful of us speculate and quarrel about what may or may not have been added, changed, fixed, removed, or updated.

Carry on.


----------



## Joe Smith

Globular said:


> OK, before the thread gets completely hijacked, what's the word on the eSATA support? Is it for any eSATA disk? What's the maximum size? etc. etc. Pony, inquiring minds want to know! I desperately need more storage.
> 
> -Matt


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=350510



> #11 What is the maximum capacity supported?
> 
> The Series3 currently supports a maximum of 2TB total storage (binary). Each drive is limited to a maximum of 1TB. With the current method -- described in #1 -- you can use a 1TB eSATA drive in addition to the internal 250GB drive, for a total of 1.25TB storage. A future method should allow use of 1TB internal and 1TB eSATA drives.
> 
> Note for marketing purposes, most drive manufacturers use the decimal definitions for megabyte and terabyte. For example, the one terabyte drive sold by Hitachi is actually 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, but computer standards define 1TB as 1,099,511,627,776 bytes. Hence, the Series3 actually supports about 10% more capacity than you get with the 1TB eSATA drives now sold at retail.


----------



## bicker

formulaben said:


> HEY SPOCK, IT'S CALLED A JOKE!!


You have a very poor sense of humor if you think so.


----------



## bicker

qili said:


> From that point of view, not being able to please their customers and meet and exceed their expectation would doom either organization equally fast. In that regard, the analogy is right on.


An analogy requires parity. My point was that the sides of the analogy were not analogous. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand -- oh wait -- yes I do: It undercuts the arguments against what I was saying. How conveeeenient. 

How about instead of wasting all this bandwidth with meta-discussion, why don't we actually talk about 9.2?


----------



## Icarus

Saturn said:


> So yea, I'm just venting because that's all I can do.


Yeah, and you've done it 7,231 times. I guess you have time to post here 100 times a day, but you can't use a speakerphone while writing all these daily posts to call Tivo. Certainly, that's your option.

Why don't you and your friends go make your own thread where you can vent all you like?

ok, I apologize for my rant. Try to stay on topic please.

-David


----------



## Joybob

bicker said:


> An analogy requires parity. My point was that the sides of the analogy were not analogous. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand -- oh wait -- yes I do: It undercuts the arguments against what I was saying. How conveeeenient.
> 
> How about instead of wasting all this bandwidth with meta-discussion, why don't we actually talk about 9.2?


I like this 9.2 thing. I'm glad we're back into even numbers. 9.1 was bad mojo; very ugly number.


----------



## fred2

bicker said:


> How about instead of wasting all this bandwidth with meta-discussion, why don't we actually talk about 9.2?


Since it does sound like the infinite rabbit hole, why no contribute, I say.

Because that would require knowing what 9.2 does. No one knows what it does (oh, wait, outside of the unspeaking Tivo). The noisy or is that nosy rabble would like to know what it does so that they can discuss whether it does or does not do what it does.

I know it would take resources to post a change list. Hmm, I would hope that their programmers already keep such a list.

Cutting their costs by having a bug list might help avoid lots of calls.

Corporations big or small cannot alienate their customers. Yes, tivo may not be poisoning the hamburgers but they are poisoning their customers tastes.

Acknowledging a problem is not necessarily a sign of weakness but can be considered a customer friendly service.


----------



## yunlin12

I do software development for a living, like some of you are, and I didn't come to Tivo forum to discuss Tivo's software development process, yes, they can probably do better in some areas, most companies can. But I don't care. I'm sick of dealing with software development issues on my own job as is. I come here to find out new (and hopefully) cool things about Tivo. To me the most important thing is what's fixed in 9.2, what we get out of it. I don't care how Tivo does it as long as new features are delivered and old ones don't get broken. If this thread is just about how Tivo's development and release process, then I find this thread utterly useless to me. See y'all fellas.


----------



## Teeps

If 9.2 fixes the picture breakup (pixelazation), and the cable cards from going stupid (said channels suddenly gone; requires restart to fix) on digital teir channels, I would be very happy. The rest is just fluff to me.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

Good grief, again with the animosity toward those of us who would dare to discuss TiVo's dearth of changelog information. I'm sorry encountering a discussion about software development when you're off the clock bums you out 'n all, but features and enhancements and fixes on a TiVo come about through software development. 

Since we have little authoritative information about what 9.2 hopes to achieve, because TiVo will not deign to enlighten us beyond a bare minimum, we're left with speculation and venting by us eager (frustrated?) users. I find it entertaining yet informative in its own way. If you don't, let your browser do your bidding. I don't think you need to flaunt your disdain for the thread because that would be um, utterly useless.

It would be great if we learned more about the officially supported esata products and configurations. I can tell already that I'd love to have more HD capacity on my THD.

Getting reports of solid CableCARD performance improvements would do a lot to close the deal for people on the fence about S3/THD units. I don't currently have digital cable, but I'm in no hurry to upgrade while these problems persist. I can see the wasted hours of vacation if the install turns into subsequent troubleshooting visits by the cable guy.

fred2, infinite rabbit hole indeed!



yunlin12 said:


> I do software development for a living, like some of you are, and I didn't come to Tivo forum to discuss Tivo's software development process, yes, they can probably do better in some areas, most companies can. But I don't care. I'm sick of dealing with software development issues on my own job as is. I come here to find out new (and hopefully) cool things about Tivo. To me the most important thing is what's fixed in 9.2, what we get out of it. I don't care how Tivo does it as long as new features are delivered and old ones don't get broken. If this thread is just about how Tivo's development and release process, then I find this thread utterly useless to me. See y'all fellas.


----------



## TracySMiller

mportuesi said:


> I've been a software engineer for over 18 years, eight years of that working at a systems vendor that routinely produced release notes for its operating system releases. I've personally written release notes for many of those releases. I daresay I know what is involved at least as well as you do.
> 
> I think the expense incurred is well worth it, given the frequency of TiVo's updates, and TiVo's relationship with its customers. Especially given that the S3/HD crowd at this moment contains a higher-than-average population of early adopters and "techie" customers.


I agree, although I'm not in the software business (just a lowly accountant). When TIVO decides to prepare an update, someone there makes the decision about what to fix. Maybe he/she decides to try to fix, let's say, ten items. Suppose the software engineers are able to fix six of then ten. So there's the list that most of us want so badly. Just release the list. No biggy.


----------



## formulaben

bicker said:


> You have a very poor sense of humor if you think so.


Uh, OK...so you're *NOT* bicker1 on another forum? Yeah, thought so...


----------



## goldfndr

But... what about when they claim to provide a fix/feature that they don't actually deliver?

I'm thinking of the TiVoCast logos in Now Playing that were supposed to be in 8.3 but had to be postponed.


----------



## quadhog

I attempted a plug and play connection tonight (I have been waiting for official support of this function versus the other option to enable the eSATA drive) and had no luck.

I have a Seagate FreeAgent Pro 500GB plugged in now. In settings (where CableCARD settings are) the external storage option displayed "Unsupported Device" versus the format hard drive scenario I was hoping for.

With only one device tested by me this seems odd that only certain models are going to be supported. I await someone else's success story because it's not coming from me.


----------



## Sevenpants

quadhog said:


> I attempted a plug and play connection tonight and had no luck.
> 
> In settings the external storage option displayed "Unsupported Device" versus the format hard drive scenario I was hoping for.


I'm having the same problem. Just posted over in the eSATA FAQ thread.


----------



## richsadams

quadhog said:


> I attempted a plug and play connection tonight (I have been waiting for official support of this function versus the other option to enable the eSATA drive) and had no luck.
> 
> I have a Seagate FreeAgent Pro 500GB plugged in now. In settings (where CableCARD settings are) the external storage option displayed "Unsupported Device" versus the format hard drive scenario I was hoping for.
> 
> With only one device tested by me this seems odd that only certain models are going to be supported. I await someone else's success story because it's not coming from me.


Here's the post (and my reply) *Sevenpants * (I'd ask about the name...but then...maybe not  ) referred to when trying eSATA P&P on his TiVo HD.

*quadhog*, did you attempt this with a TiVo HD or an Original S3?

BTW, thanks for the posts...and welcome! :up:


----------



## richsadams

IMHO it's very possible that although eSATA is listed in a new menu in v9.2.j, it's still not activated...the same way that MRV and TTG remnants can be found in previous releases without being operational. It could be activated with the rollout of the final v9.2 upgrade as well. 

That existing eSATA drives are operating properly with v9.2.j is encouraging though. 

However it may be that TiVo will only have one or two "supported devices" of their own which will work as plug and play models and anything else will still require a hack as they do now. Time will tell.


----------



## bmoura

TiivoDog said:


> Is there a Priority Page set up for 9.2? I have 9.1, but I have yet to be put on the 'guest list'..... Additionally, I have connected a few times, but it has to be downloaded/installed.


9.2J just showed up tonight on my Tivo HD. Guess we'll have to wait to see which drives are Tivo certified for the expansion.


----------



## bicker

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Good grief, again with the animosity toward those of us who would dare to discuss TiVo's dearth of changelog information. I'm sorry encountering a discussion about software development when you're off the clock bums you out 'n all, but features and enhancements and fixes on a TiVo come about through software development.


Not speaking for yunlin12, but the reality is that this is not a thread to discuss TiVo's software development process. There actually is a thread for moaning about Release Notes, and this is NOT that thread.

As yunlin12 pointed out, the best use for this thread is people relaying their own personal experiences with 9.2.


----------



## bicker

formulaben said:


> Uh, OK...so you're *NOT* bicker1 on another forum? Yeah, thought so...


Are you even paying attention? Read what I wrote again.


----------



## Bierboy

Saturn said:


> I'll simplify it just for you:
> 
> TiVo's official response to the many 9.1 problems has been virtually non-existant and that's unacceptable to me.


Then get rid of your freaking TiVo, dump your service and quit wasting our time.


----------



## Ereth

Bierboy said:


> Then get rid of your freaking TiVo, dump your service and quit wasting our time.


Right. Because trying to communicate how a company could do a better job is such a total waste of time.

I happen to agree with Saturn. It's hard to find a bigger TiVo fanboy than me. For seven years I've been raving about TiVo and how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

And last week I was forced to take every last season pass off my S3. It is an inert box, useless, because of 9.1 and how it caused my cablecards to stop working. The most important feature TiVo has is reliable recording of shows. Everything else is secondary.

If it won't record the shows, it doesn't matter whether there's 30 second skip or not. It doesn't matter if it has Wishlists or pixelation or anything else. Trick plays on a blank screen are not interesting. ToDo lists filled with "This show was not recorded because the video signal was not available" is not interesting.

My TiVos have never missed shows in the 7 years I've been buying them. And then they started missing all of them. That's a pretty serious problem, wouldn't you agree?

So, right now, I have a $1000 paperweight, with lifetime service. And for the first time EVER, I don't trust that my TiVo will do what I told it. And I've moved to somebody elses DVR because missing shows is unacceptable. Sure, the interface isn't TiVo. The features aren't TiVo. But when I get home at night, the shows I want to watch are there, and THAT is the most important feature.

Trust is very hard to win, and even harder to regain. I used to trust my TiVos, unconditionally. Now I don't. How do you fix that?

You fix it with communication. Back in the old days, TiVo would have done exactly that. They would have been in here answering questions. They would have told us that they were working on it. They would have told us that they had a potential fix and it was in testing. They would have told us that they were sending the fix out to a small group of users for field testing. And they would have told us when they were flipping the big switch to send it to everyone.

No offense to TiVoPony, who I like, but Richard Bullwinkle would have been all over this forum telling us what was going on. I suspect that TiVo itself is different now, and Pony is more limited in what he can say, and that it's not his fault, but as a company, TiVo is far more tight-lipped than they used to be.

This isn't the first time we've had a significant bug. Read the archives for previous times. What's different this time is the almost total silence coming from TiVo.

When someone like me, who even came in here to defend TiVo for price changes, to turn his TiVo off and declare it to be "useless" means TiVo has a serious problem, and a company who lives and dies off it's reputation for reliability cannot ignore a problem like that, and certainly will not win new "Raving Fans" by refusing to comment on the issue.

I'm still here, but my TiVo does not record anything I actually care about any more. Simply because I cannot trust that it will do so reliably.

Even if TiVo doesn't want to give us "detailed release notes", they absolutely should acknowledge the cablecard problem and let us know if it's fixed. Until we KNOW that it's fixed, my S3 will remain a paperweight. And I damned sure won't be buying another one. And I won't be recommending to my friends that they do, either.

And that's why TiVo should communicate better. Period.


----------



## tivoknucklehead

Ereth said:


> Right. Because trying to communicate how a company could do a better job is such a total waste of time.
> 
> I happen to agree with Saturn. It's hard to find a bigger TiVo fanboy than me. For seven years I've been raving about TiVo and how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
> 
> And last week I was forced to take every last season pass off my S3. It is an inert box, useless, because of 9.1 and how it caused my cablecards to stop working. The most important feature TiVo has is reliable recording of shows. Everything else is secondary.
> 
> If it won't record the shows, it doesn't matter whether there's 30 second skip or not. It doesn't matter if it has Wishlists or pixelation or anything else. Trick plays on a blank screen are not interesting. ToDo lists filled with "This show was not recorded because the video signal was not available" is not interesting.
> 
> My TiVos have never missed shows in the 7 years I've been buying them. And then they started missing all of them. That's a pretty serious problem, wouldn't you agree?
> 
> So, right now, I have a $1000 paperweight, with lifetime service. And for the first time EVER, I don't trust that my TiVo will do what I told it. And I've moved to somebody elses DVR because missing shows is unacceptable. Sure, the interface isn't TiVo. The features aren't TiVo. But when I get home at night, the shows I want to watch are there, and THAT is the most important feature.
> 
> Trust is very hard to win, and even harder to regain. I used to trust my TiVos, unconditionally. Now I don't. How do you fix that?
> 
> You fix it with communication. Back in the old days, TiVo would have done exactly that. They would have been in here answering questions. They would have told us that they were working on it. They would have told us that they had a potential fix and it was in testing. They would have told us that they were sending the fix out to a small group of users for field testing. And they would have told us when they were flipping the big switch to send it to everyone.
> 
> No offense to TiVoPony, who I like, but Richard Bullwinkle would have been all over this forum telling us what was going on. I suspect that TiVo itself is different now, and Pony is more limited in what he can say, and that it's not his fault, but as a company, TiVo is far more tight-lipped than they used to be.
> 
> This isn't the first time we've had a significant bug. Read the archives for previous times. What's different this time is the almost total silence coming from TiVo.
> 
> When someone like me, who even came in here to defend TiVo for price changes, to turn his TiVo off and declare it to be "useless" means TiVo has a serious problem, and a company who lives and dies off it's reputation for reliability cannot ignore a problem like that, and certainly will not win new "Raving Fans" by refusing to comment on the issue.
> 
> I'm still here, but my TiVo does not record anything I actually care about any more. Simply because I cannot trust that it will do so reliably.
> 
> Even if TiVo doesn't want to give us "detailed release notes", they absolutely should acknowledge the cablecard problem and let us know if it's fixed. Until we KNOW that it's fixed, my S3 will remain a paperweight. And I damned sure won't be buying another one. And I won't be recommending to my friends that they do, either.
> 
> And that's why TiVo should communicate better. Period.


I couldn't have said it any better, the cablecard "no video signal" is the worst Tivo bug ever and needs to be acknowledged by Tivo ASAP. Like you, i have transferred by important recordings over to a non Tivo DVR until this mess is fixed


----------



## GoHokies!

Ereth said:


> Lots of good stuff.


Yes, Tivo certainly could communicate better.

More important than acknowledging the bug, they should fix it. Does 9.2 fix the problem? Presumably, since we saw 9.1 and then 9.2 in such short order, 9.2 is designed to fix serious bugs like that one. If you don't have it, I think that a quick phone call would get it pushed to you ASAP (hopefully).


----------



## bicker

Ereth said:


> Right. Because trying to communicate how a company could do a better job is such a total waste of time.


It's a bit like telling your co-workers how your mechanic could have done a better job fixing your car. Neither you nor the people you're telling this to benefit from it. I think everyone wishes TiVo would communicate better... that's not the point. At this point, it has gotten to the point that threads that are ostensibly supposed to be HELPING people get the most out of their TiVos are instead ALL being overrun by people _misdirecting their frustration_.


----------



## dig_duggler

Ereth pretty much nailed it for me. The trust issue. Throughout the years, I've never been unsure of whether or not my Tivo would get the recordings. Minor bugs, minor quibbles. I'm pretty vocal about them here, but I still trusted and loved my Tivo. But now it's different. I'm going to be sitting at my Tivo at 6:59 tonight to make sure it works. And not even an admission of a problem. Anywhere. There's still multiple reports that the CSRs don't know about this bug; that level two techs are telling people this bug is impossible; Pony pops in and chimes on an update, but doesn't mention whether or not it addresses a bug that cripples core function for a lot of users. If I didn't have lifetime, I certainly would cancel. I already paid my money (in an exclusive VIP offer that turned out to be extended and then re-offered to the TivoHD) and will now wait around like a chump to see if it gets fixed.


----------



## TokyoShoe

I've been forcing my TivoHD to check every few hours since Tuesday. So far, I'm still stuck on 8.1.something and it hasn't found anything yet. I've got an eSATA drive that I'm dieing to hook up, and my regular TivoHD Drive is almost out of space! I signed up on the 9.1 "Priority Page" as someone in another thread recommended, but still no go. 

Is there ANY other way to force a patch to roll out to a specific Tivo unit faster?


----------



## bicker

Sorry, no.


----------



## TokyoShoe

bicker said:


> Sorry, no.


Well drat, I guess I'll have to just wait and hope I don't run out of space before it gets enabled.


----------



## quadhog

Ignore this, see below.


----------



## quadhog

richsadams said:


> [and my reply) *Sevenpants * (I'd ask about the name...but then...maybe not  ) referred to when trying eSATA P&P on his TiVo HD.
> 
> *quadhog*, did you attempt this with a TiVo HD or an Original S3?
> 
> BTW, thanks for the posts...and welcome! :up:


Knew I forgot something...it was a TiVoHD. I went directly from 8.1 to 9.2.
Thanks for the greet rich.

P.S. Man, that removing URLs is a pain in the butt.


----------



## flatcurve

at least TiVo notifies you that an update has even happened. In my experience with DishNetwork and Comcast DVRs, updates get pushed on those all the time without so much as a wink and a nod. One day you either notice a new bug, or that an old one got fixed.

The reason (I think) that TiVo doesn't make release notes is that the vast majority of their customer base doesn't care about them. They'd really just be making the notes for power users like us. And as we've seen, that's an audience that will be critical regardless of what bugs are fixed. As those of us who've ever developed software know, sometimes you don't always fix all the bugs in the next release. In fact, chances are you introduced a couple more. So any glaring omissions on the release notes will raise cries of injustice from the diehards, while your average Dick & Jane will just be happy that their cable card is working again. And TiVo is not a software company, so all comparisons to other software vendors (like Microsoft) are moot. They are first and foremost a hardware company. I don't really see a lot of dedicated hardware vendors make a fuss when updating their proprietary software.


----------



## RoyK

flatcurve said:


> ....... And TiVo is not a software company, so all comparisons to other software vendors (like Microsoft) are moot. They are first and foremost a hardware company. I don't really see a lot of dedicated hardware vendors make a fuss when updating their proprietary software.


I'm sure they'd be interested in knowing that.


----------



## bicker

RoyK: Glad to find something I can agree with you about, at least to some extent: TiVo is not a hardware company. They are listed, "first and foremost", as a Services company.


----------



## qili

bicker said:


> An analogy requires parity.


the parity was clearly stated in my "analogy" to help you understand it.



> My point was that the sides of the analogy were not analogous.


you are clearly entitled for that view, however wrong I think it is.



> I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand


I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand it either.



> -- oh wait -- yes I do: It undercuts the arguments against what I was saying. How conveeeenient.


However, I do see that people have different levels of comprehension, some better than others. when you fail to understand it, I don't root cause it negatively, as you so convinently and viciously did.


----------



## qili

Bierboy said:


> Then get rid of your freaking TiVo, dump your service and quit wasting our time.


you have every right to skip it. We are not responsible for your wasting your time, however.


----------



## flatcurve

RoyK said:


> I'm sure they'd be interested in knowing that.


Service company, hardware company, whatever... Point is they don't fit the same mold as other examples people have been pulling out here (McDonald's, Microsoft)

Can we all just relax and watch TV or are we going to keep attacking TiVo for releasing a new version of software?


----------



## bicker

qili said:


> However, I do see that people have different levels of comprehension, some better than others. when you fail to understand it, I don't root cause it negatively, as you so convinently and viciously did.


Infriggencredible. If someone says something is bad, that is a negative statement. If someone says something is good, that is a positive statement. The way you'd have it, if someone says something that you agree with it is a positive statement and if they say something you disagree with it is a negative statement. 

This isn't rocket science.


----------



## qili

bicker said:


> This isn't rocket science.


that I agree. but i have yet to figure out why some people are having troubles undestanding "analogy".


----------



## formulaben

bicker said:


> Are you even paying attention? Read what I wrote again.


And are *YOU* paying attention?  <--- means something...unless, of course, it would be _illogical._


----------



## Revolutionary

This has become the most inane, useless bickering (no pun or offense intended) that I have yet to encounter on TCF. It was amusing for a while. Now it's just ridiculous.


----------



## SCSIRAID

Revolutionary said:


> This has become the most inane, useless bickering (no pun or offense intended) that I have yet to encounter on TCF. It was amusing for a while. Now it's just ridiculous.


+1


----------



## qili

scsiraid said:


> +1


+2


----------



## flatcurve

Revolutionary said:


> This has become the most inane, useless bickering (no pun or offense intended) that I have yet to encounter on TCF. It was amusing for a while. Now it's just ridiculous.


I totally agree. If you boil it down, this thread is maybe 1 page of 9.2 information, and 7 pages of arguing...


----------



## qili

bicker bickers too much.



no pun intended.

let's move on, shall we?


----------



## bicker

qili said:


> that I agree. but i have yet to figure out why some people are having troubles undestanding "analogy".


Maybe because you don't know what the purpose of an analogy is. As I've mentioned, parity is necessary, otherwise, you're basically saying "This is DIFFERENT from this, so this is DIFFERENT from that."


----------



## bicker

Revolutionary said:


> This has become the most inane, useless bickering (no pun or offense intended) that I have yet to encounter on TCF. It was amusing for a while. Now it's just ridiculous.


I agree. I'm "Ignoring" him, and focusing just on 9.2 related messages here from this point forward.


----------



## Saturn

Revolutionary said:


> This has become the most inane, useless bickering (no pun or offense intended) that I have yet to encounter on TCF. It was amusing for a while. Now it's just ridiculous.


Na, not even close. Head over to the happy hour for a while if you want to see truely useless bickering.


----------



## qili

bicker said:


> As I've mentioned, parity is necessary, otherwise, you're basically saying "This is DIFFERENT from this, so this is DIFFERENT from that."


It is fairly to say that if that's your understanding, I have failed miserably in delivering a very simple message.

My fault, if that helps stop bicker from bickering.


----------



## qili

thank god, happy hour isn't too far from now.

then we can bicker all the bickering we want.


----------



## formulaben

Cool. I'm buying. Who wants milk toast?


----------



## qili

It would be interesting to see how TiVo works with Comcast. If the 9.1 release is typical TiVo behavior, I find it hard to believe that Comcast would put up with that.


----------



## Stimpy5050

qili said:


> It would be interesting to see how TiVo works with Comcast. If the 9.1 release is typical TiVo behavior, I find it hard to believe that Comcast would put up with that.


Take a look at any of Comcast's DVR systems. They aren't exactly bug free systems. I don't think Comcast could care less.


----------



## qili

Stimpy5050 said:


> I don't think Comcast could care less.


agree, until their customers call in complaining about not being able to record / watch TV, and TiVo wouldn't provide Comcast with any info about what the bugs are or the status of the fixes.

I tend to think Comcast may behave differently than we did.


----------



## formulaben

qili said:


> It would be interesting to see how TiVo works with Comcast. If the 9.1 release is typical TiVo behavior, *I find it hard to believe that Comcast would put up with that.*


You're obviously joking. I hope...


----------



## bareyb

FWIW I think the Comcast TiVo box will help us all. In this world we live in everything comes down to "the money trail". TiVo is (hopefully) going to have a fat paycheck coming from Comcast and a lot of exposure in the Comcast boxes. I have to believe they are going to want to keep Comcast "happy". Hopefully this will bode well for all of us.


----------



## qili

bareyb said:


> I have to believe they are going to want to keep Comcast "happy". Hopefully this will bode well for all of us.


I certainly hope that the big fat check from Comcast will motivate TiVo enough so that we retail customers get the benefits of timely resolution of bugs and update to the same code base.


----------



## richsadams

Ereth said:


> <snip> And for the first time EVER, I don't trust that my TiVo will do what I told it. <snip>
> Even if TiVo doesn't want to give us "detailed release notes", they absolutely should acknowledge the cablecard problem and let us know if it's fixed. Until we KNOW that it's fixed, my S3 will remain a paperweight. And I damned sure won't be buying another one. And I won't be recommending to my friends that they do, either.
> 
> And that's why TiVo should communicate better. Period.


Just catching up on my reading and wanted to say thank you to Ereth. I completely sympathize with all of your points...well done. (Although I thought I was the only one that wrote novels around here  )

Those two points above really hit home. For years and years I've trusted TiVo to do what it's supposed to do...and now I don't. That really, really disappoints me and makes me mad  and sad. 

Secondly after following what seems like dozens of threads with hundreds of posts IMHO a majority of these problems boil down to cable card compatibility. Motorola cards seem to be working much better than Scientific Atlanta cards. That really came to light with the first release of the TiVo HD's.

So I don't know that 100% of the blame can be placed on TiVo for cable card issues. IMO and based on historical posts the SA cards appear to be of lesser quality, erratic, fail more often, require firmware upgrades and all-in-all aren't very good. If they are sub-standard some fingers should be pointing at Cisco for making cut-rate equipment and the cableco's that decided to save a few cents by buying them.

I understand that S2's are having problems as well. However it appears that TiVo has to spend an inordinate amount of time getting SA cards to work with THD's and S3's throwing their once solid performance record into a tailspin, causing other things to fall through the cracks...and calling their standards into question. Hopefully it's being ironed out as we speak. (It would be best to have some communications about it though.)

And hopefully I'll be able to depend on my TiVo (read: never have to worry about it doing what it's supposed to do) again soon.

Thanks again for that post Ereth...good job. :up:


----------



## ZeoTiVo

qili said:


> It would be interesting to see how TiVo works with Comcast. If the 9.1 release is typical TiVo behavior, I find it hard to believe that Comcast would put up with that.


9.1 is typical for the first release of a major overhaul of the TiVo software. Everyone forgets how much work under the covers goes on in a TiVo and how extensive the changes would have to be to add in digital recordings and HD to the MRV/TTG mix. They got brave and included a MUCH improved wishlist feature. Add to that the fact that they are also working out cable card issues for a piece of technology they do not have even indirect control over and the amount of work they have done to produce the 9x series is staggering.

This does not mean that bugs are acceptable to the end customer who pays for the product and service. Ereth makes a very good point about how his seriousl;y fatal defect impacts him the customer and thus TiVo the company. It does mean that it is hard for any company to do that amount of work and not have issues with the final product that will need further work.

To expect any company to publicly issue statements around the problems they know about with their product is just real silly. Any such public statements will always be considered in light of business plans and impacts versus customers calling or posting for such statements.

Truth in Posting discalimer - my TiVo DVRs all did well with 9.1 and I just have the minor bugs like To Do List highlight moving, etc..


----------



## richsadams

bareyb said:


> <snip> If the new Comcast boxes work well...<snip>


Ahh...and there's the $64K dollar question! :up: A quick Google will find literally thousands of unhappy Comcast Motorola HD DVR owners. The problems are legendary; constant failures, small HDD's, no cooling fans and the list goes on.

Which leads me to ask; are most of the Comcast HD DVR problems due to hardware, software or a combination of the two?

The final and most important question then becomes, will the new ComcasTivo GUI fix Comcasts DVR problems?

If not, can you imagine the thousands of folks that will find there way here to complain about how awful "TiVo" is?  The forum's handlers had better find a bigger, faster server quick...they may really need it!

We went through four Comcast HD DVR's in three months...all failed...all for different reasons.  I wish them well and hope they beat expectations, but even with the bugs, we'll stick with "real" TiVo's for now.


----------



## qili

richsadams said:


> A quick Google will find literally thousands of unhappy Comcast Motorola HD DVR owners.


is that "thousands" of unhappy owners or "thousands" of posts from unhappy owners?

out of how many Comcast customers?


----------



## qili

richsadams said:


> If not, can you imagine the thousands of folks that will find there way here to complain about how awful "TiVo" is?  The forum's handlers had better find a bigger, faster server quick...they may really need it!


they very well may. we just don't know it.

why are you so sure that it will not be the case?


----------



## bareyb

richsadams said:


> Ahh...and there's the $64K dollar question! :up: A quick Google will find literally thousands of unhappy Comcast Motorola HD DVR owners. The problems are legendary; constant failures, small HDD's, no cooling fans and the list goes on.
> 
> Which leads me to ask; are most of the Comcast HD DVR problems due to hardware, software or a combination of the two?
> 
> The final and most important question then becomes, will the new ComcasTivo GUI fix Comcasts DVR problems?
> 
> If not, can you imagine the thousands of folks that will find there way here to complain about how awful "TiVo" is?  The forum's handlers had better find a bigger, faster server quick...they may really need it!
> 
> We went through four Comcast HD DVR's in three months...all failed...all for different reasons.  I wish them well and hope they beat expectations, but even with the bugs, we'll stick with "real" TiVo's for now.


I hope to be one of the early adopters. 

I already have a Comcast box (in addition to my S3 boxes) and yep, it's a hot running, non responsive, clunky thing. The IR is terrible. I'd have to believe the TiVo software could only be an improvement. Don't know if it will cure any of the hardware issues, whatever they may be, but I'm willing to be a give it a shot when it becomes available. My real hope is that my S3's will find a stable software release and I can go back to being happy with them again.

I've lost most of my hope that 9.2 will fix the 30 second skip problem. I've already gotten a little more used to it as is, and am finding it a little less annoying. Instead of using visual cues to see where I'm going, I now just count the number of "boops" and when I get to 6, I slow way down. It still sucks, but it's useable. If 9.2 even improves it that'll be fine with me. I just can't ***** about this any more. It'll get fixed when it gets fixed I suppose. I'm gonna call TiVo and see if I can get put on a list for early release of 9.2. Beyond that I give it to the powers of the universe. After reading Ereth's experiences with 9.1 I feel lucky my S3 is useable at all.


----------



## bicker

richsadams said:


> Ahh...and there's the $64K dollar question! :up: A quick Google will find literally thousands of unhappy Comcast Motorola HD DVR owners. The problems are legendary; constant failures, small HDD's, no cooling fans and the list goes on.


That is a big question, surely. However, the most likely scenario is that some of the issue are hardware, some are firmware and some are software, so at least some of the issues will be resolved with the TiVo software. If you dig down and really read the complaints, most of them seem to be within the range of those that could perhaps be software-related. The complaints I see most are:

- Series Recording anamolies - This includes repeatedly recording the same episode over and over again over the course of a week, the problem where a recording goes for hundreds of minutes instead of just an hour, etc.. Almost surely these will all be completely resolved by TiVo software

- Remote Control command stack-up - I originally thought this was firmware related, but folks have make a strong point that this happens due to program guide indexing, something which TiVo software would do much better, thereby resolving the issue.


----------



## tivoknucklehead

the 30 second thing is a very minor annoyance compared to the cablecard failure after 9.1 . If you can't assume your shows are going to record this makes the Tivo pretty much worthless until they fix that


----------



## riddick21

I hope I don't jinx it but I think 9.2 fixed the pixillation problem for the most part on my S3. I had one brief instance of pixillation but have yet to have another. Before 9.2 I would get brief pixillation roughly every minute or so on my HBO channels. The one time I got pixillation was on the CW during beauty and the geek but it was very brief and small compared to what I used to get. Can anyone else with an S3 and SA cablecards confirm this? I have Cable Vision of South Westchester. Also the UI seems faster but I didn't really use the TiVo too much while I had 9.1 to know how it compares.


----------



## richsadams

qili said:


> is that "thousands" of unhappy owners or "thousands" of posts from unhappy owners?
> 
> out of how many Comcast customers?


 Comcast is the largest cableco in the U.S. It has a total of 24.1 million cable customers, 14.1 million digital cable customers. The company employs over 90,000 people. Of course not all have DVR's, but the ones that do are a vocal bunch. You do the math (and your own research  ).



qili said:


> they very well may. we just don't know it.
> 
> why are you so sure that it will not be the case?


Once again, I dont understand your question. (Or really your need to argue with everyone...poorly. But thats just me.  )


----------



## bareyb

bareyb said:


> I'm gonna call TiVo and see if I can get put on a list for early release of 9.2. Beyond that I give it to the powers of the universe. After reading Ereth's experiences with 9.1 I feel lucky my S3 is useable at all.


Nope. No way to get on a priority list for the patch, even if you call. But I guess we kind of knew that already. Anyway, I had to try. For the sake of all who are suffering... You're welcome.


----------



## ah30k

richsadams said:


> The final and most important question then becomes, will the new ComcasTivo GUI fix Comcasts DVR problems?


I believe that there were rather significant code changes required to get the TiVo app to run on the Mot middleware. The first error that comes up, people will be claiming how the Mot hardware/middleware is crap and even TiVo couldn't fix it. Be prepared for many bugs once this thing gets release...


----------



## richsadams

ah30k said:


> I believe that there were rather significant code changes required to get the TiVo app to run on the Mot middleware. The first error that comes up, people will be claiming how the Mot hardware/middleware is crap and even TiVo couldn't fix it. Be prepared for many bugs once this thing gets release...


Amen brother!  _Hopefully _ they'll blame Moto/Comcast and _not _ TiVo.


----------



## Bierboy

bareyb said:


> ...
> I've lost most of my hope that 9.2 will fix the 30 second skip problem. I've already gotten a little more used to it as is, and am finding it a little less annoying. Instead of using visual cues to see where I'm going, I now just count the number of "boops" and when I get to 6, I slow way down. It still sucks, but it's useable. If 9.2 even improves it that'll be fine with me. I just can't ***** about this any more. It'll get fixed when it gets fixed I suppose....


After my S3 loaded 9.1, I didn't notice the 30SS problem at first (since I rarely used visual cues...I just counted), but now I do. And, yes, we adapt. I simply either continue to count or just hit the jump button a bit more slowly (if depending on visual cues). I still get through 2-4 minutes of commercials in seconds, so I ain't complainin'....


----------



## irandsert

Stimpy5050 said:


> Take a look at any of Comcast's DVR systems. They aren't exactly bug free systems. I don't think Comcast could care less.


A couple of years ago our local Comcast killed every DVR in our town with an update. There was a line 1/4 mile long outside the local office all with DVRs in hand.


----------



## qili

richsadams said:


> Comcast is the largest cableco in the U.S. It has a total of 24.1 million cable customers, 14.1 million digital cable customers. The company employs over 90,000 people. Of course not all have DVR's, but the ones that do are a vocal bunch. You do the math (and your own research  ).


I am sorry as I am still trying to figure out how you concluded that they are thousands of unhappy Comcast customers based on an internet search.



> Once again, I dont understand your question. (Or really your need to argue with everyone...poorly. But thats just me.  )


no get hyperventilating. I was just trying to understand the logic behind your statements.

if that's too much to ask of you, I will shut up.


----------



## ah30k

irandsert said:


> A couple of years ago our local Comcast killed every DVR in our town with an update. There was a line 1/4 mile long outside the local office all with DVRs in hand.


Just a touch of exaggeration here?


----------



## yunlin12

Bierboy said:


> After my S3 loaded 9.1, I didn't notice the 30SS problem at first (since I rarely used visual cues...I just counted), but now I do. And, yes, we adapt. I simply either continue to count or just hit the jump button a bit more slowly (if depending on visual cues). I still get through 2-4 minutes of commercials in seconds, so I ain't complainin'....


+1.

Usually I just hit it 6 times really fast without even looking, most commercial breaks are 3 min or longer. Then I slow down and hit one 30 sec skip at a time and see where I am. That's usually just 2-3 more clicks. Yeah it's a little more "stickier" in 9.1, each 30 sec skip takes a fraction of a second longer than 8.3, so it may add up to 1-2 sec longer overall to skip a commercial break, I don't see the big deal.


----------



## rodalpho

The 30SS thing isn't a big deal. But it is demonstrably and definitively worse than the previous version when one would reasonably expect each software release to fix stuff, not break it.


----------



## MassRocket

Ereth said:


> Right. Because trying to communicate how a company could do a better job is such a total waste of time.
> 
> I happen to agree with Saturn. It's hard to find a bigger TiVo fanboy than me. For seven years I've been raving about TiVo and how it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
> 
> And last week I was forced to take every last season pass off my S3. It is an inert box, useless, because of 9.1 and how it caused my cablecards to stop working. The most important feature TiVo has is reliable recording of shows. Everything else is secondary.
> 
> If it won't record the shows, it doesn't matter whether there's 30 second skip or not. It doesn't matter if it has Wishlists or pixelation or anything else. Trick plays on a blank screen are not interesting. ToDo lists filled with "This show was not recorded because the video signal was not available" is not interesting.
> 
> My TiVos have never missed shows in the 7 years I've been buying them. And then they started missing all of them. That's a pretty serious problem, wouldn't you agree?
> 
> So, right now, I have a $1000 paperweight, with lifetime service. And for the first time EVER, I don't trust that my TiVo will do what I told it. And I've moved to somebody elses DVR because missing shows is unacceptable. Sure, the interface isn't TiVo. The features aren't TiVo. But when I get home at night, the shows I want to watch are there, and THAT is the most important feature.
> 
> Trust is very hard to win, and even harder to regain. I used to trust my TiVos, unconditionally. Now I don't. How do you fix that?
> 
> You fix it with communication. Back in the old days, TiVo would have done exactly that. They would have been in here answering questions. They would have told us that they were working on it. They would have told us that they had a potential fix and it was in testing. They would have told us that they were sending the fix out to a small group of users for field testing. And they would have told us when they were flipping the big switch to send it to everyone.
> 
> No offense to TiVoPony, who I like, but Richard Bullwinkle would have been all over this forum telling us what was going on. I suspect that TiVo itself is different now, and Pony is more limited in what he can say, and that it's not his fault, but as a company, TiVo is far more tight-lipped than they used to be.
> 
> This isn't the first time we've had a significant bug. Read the archives for previous times. What's different this time is the almost total silence coming from TiVo.
> 
> When someone like me, who even came in here to defend TiVo for price changes, to turn his TiVo off and declare it to be "useless" means TiVo has a serious problem, and a company who lives and dies off it's reputation for reliability cannot ignore a problem like that, and certainly will not win new "Raving Fans" by refusing to comment on the issue.
> 
> I'm still here, but my TiVo does not record anything I actually care about any more. Simply because I cannot trust that it will do so reliably.
> 
> Even if TiVo doesn't want to give us "detailed release notes", they absolutely should acknowledge the cablecard problem and let us know if it's fixed. Until we KNOW that it's fixed, my S3 will remain a paperweight. And I damned sure won't be buying another one. And I won't be recommending to my friends that they do, either.
> 
> And that's why TiVo should communicate better. Period.


I have been a loyal Tivo user for many years (2 SAT-T60s dating from 2001, upgraded several times). I was planning to ditch DirecTV and go for a couple of Series 3 boxes to go with my Comcast service, which I have been using separately for HDTV using a Motorola 6412 (which is very clunky, by the way).

Reading through this thread, I am now deeply concerned that after I sink over a thousand dollars into a couple of S3s (including 3-yr service) I will not be able to reliably record shows/season passes.

Could we please get some official word from Tivo regarding 1) Does 9.2 fix the "This show was not recorded because the video signal was not available." problem?; and 2) is 9.2 definitely available on new boxes that are purchased?. Also, I am pretty attached to 30-sec skip, so I would like to know whether this will work properly if I buy these new units. Lastly, if Tivo doesn't plan to provide it, where can I find a list of the features/bug lists 9.2 addresses? I think it is only fair to ask that I be in a position to know what I am going to be dealing with before I lay out the money to buy these new boxes.


----------



## jcochran1977

How do I update my software version? Mine is at 8.1 and I can't figure out how to update?

Any advice would be greatly apprecaited.

Thanks,


----------



## jcochran1977

bown said:


> cablecard issue fixed
> menu bug fixed
> esata expansion officially added
> 30 sec skip fixed
> 
> Thank you Tivo! My faith has been restored!


How do we update our software?


----------



## cr33p

Priority page for 9.2 is up 

http://www.tivo.com/priority

check this thread for details

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370593


----------



## mportuesi

yunlin12 said:


> Usually I just hit it 6 times really fast without even looking, most commercial breaks are 3 min or longer. Then I slow down and hit one 30 sec skip at a time and see where I am. That's usually just 2-3 more clicks. Yeah it's a little more "stickier" in 9.1, each 30 sec skip takes a fraction of a second longer than 8.3, so it may add up to 1-2 sec longer overall to skip a commercial break, I don't see the big deal.


To me it is a big deal. I have five years of muscle memory training in skipping commercials that I now have to unlearn because of this bug.

Ordinarilty this wouldn't be a big issue. But the trick-play features are the most-used feature on the box by a wide margin, so I'm reminded of this fact constantly.


----------



## richsadams

jcochran1977 said:


> How do I update my software version? Mine is at 8.1 and I can't figure out how to update?
> 
> Any advice would be greatly apprecaited.
> 
> Thanks,


Updates are delivered automatically with no action required on your part. At the moment you're not missing much and in fact your TiVo may be more stable with v8.1x. OR you can go to this link and sign up for the latest release:

http://www.tivo.com/priority

My advice would be to wait if you have a Series 2 as it would receive v9.1 which is what everyone here has been complaining about (although our Series 2's are working fine w/v9.1) The latest release, v9.2 is only being rolled out to Series 3 and TiVo HD's at this time.

Once an update has been downloaded your TiVo will install it and reboot the following morning at 2 a.m. your time.


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

A popup message just came up on my computer indicating that Firefox 2.0.0.8 is going to be installed if I click now (or at its next restart).

Well, lookie here...right on that dialog box...a link directly to this nice little page full of release notes.

Man, that must have been a real ***** to put all that together. 

I'm sorry; I couldn't resist.


----------



## formulaben

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> Man, that must have been a real ***** to put all that together.


----------



## sfhub

For normal companies creating release notes is as simple as a query into the bug/enhancement database for "Status: Fixed" occuring between the last release and current release for the product in question, then using trusty cut/paste.

It's not like release notes are a mission critical operation. Just have TiVo fan-boy intern write them up.

Well I guess if you don't have a bug/enhancement database and everything is done word of mouth, it might be more difficult, but then it would be more difficult to track the bugs too... hmm.


----------



## formulaben

Just got the 9.2 release. 30 second skip works much better, and now Tivo Desktop sees my music. Woohoo!


----------



## ToddNeedsTiVo

sfhub said:


> For normal companies creating release notes is as simple as a query into the bug/enhancement database for "Status: Fixed" occuring between the last release and current release for the product in question, then using trusty cut/paste.
> 
> It's not like release notes are a mission critical operation. Just have TiVo fan-boy intern write them up.
> 
> Well I guess if you don't have a bug/enhancement database and everything is done word of mouth, it might be more difficult, but then it would be more difficult to track the bugs too... hmm.


Exactly. I don't care if TiVo has the most sophisticated bug/enhancement database available, or if they haphazardly manage everything on Post-It notes, dry-erase boards, and stained cocktail napkins; there is no reason they can't divulge a few sentences of information with their releases. Okay, no reason that I won't dismiss as silly or unreasonable.


----------



## mportuesi

There's a little more to making release notes than that. First, you don't need to report *every* fixed bug to the customer. So you want the engineering staff to make a first cut at deciding what's worth talking about, and what issues are internal and not meaningful to the customer.

Not everything in the release notes are bug fixes. New features must be written up and described. Often, limitations in the software (i.e. "don't do this") must be communicated. Those items must also be supplied by development staff or by product managers.

Usually, you want to have some sort of professsional tech writer editing and revising the release notes to make them presentable to the customer. Ticket entries in the bug system are filled with language and references that make sense only to those doing development, or close to it. The tech writer will often have to consult with engineering staff for clarification, especially if the release notes describe limitations in the software or workarounds to known issues.

Marketing wants to get involved in scrubbing the list of reported issues to make sure everything is politically correct.

Where I worked, we also used release notes as a means of notifying customers about problems in the software that we *knew* existed, but could not fix in time for the release, or decided was not worth fixing. That usually involved lots of discussions between engineers, managers, and marketing people to decide what does and does not get communicated to the customer.

Point is, there's more to release notes than just doing a query in the bug database followed by copy and paste. But I stand by my assertion it's well worth whatever expense TiVo pays in order to make sure customers are kept in the loop.


----------



## TokyoShoe

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370629

9.2j Enables eSATA for TIVOHD , but apparently only supports Tivo branded and verified "External Storage Solutions" bought from their upcoming new service?


----------



## sfhub

mportuesi said:


> Point is, there's more to release notes than just doing a query in the bug database followed by copy and paste.


Yes, you need a brain and must be able to read, figure out if the one line bug description isn't good enough, then read the details and summarize. Query just P1/P2 bugs/enhancements if you want. I stand by my assertion that a TiVo fan-boy intern has these skills and you don't need this to be a multi-department project. For 99% of the stuff TiVo fan-boy will be able to do everything by themself. For 1% of the stuff they may need to ask someone for clarification if it should be published or how to present it.

Release notes for stuff like TiVo don't need to be the same level as documentation for Oracle database. Given the choice of nothing vs something not perfect I doubt you'll be hearing complaints.

I think it is easy to overthink to the point of inaction.

Sections of Mozilla release notes actually are just queries into their database:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html#firefox2.0.0.8

Even without the detailed access to the full bug report, the one line description is already way more useful than what we have.

If you want to be progressive, just have moyekj or some other volunteer maintain a list and have an engineer spend 15 minutes writing fixed, not fixed, unknown.

Of course if one wants to make it a big project endeavor they can do as you suggest, but it simply isn't required for this type of product.


----------



## richsadams

TokyoShoe said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370629
> 
> 9.2j Enables eSATA for TIVOHD , but apparently only supports Tivo branded and verified "External Storage Solutions" bought from their upcoming new service?


Unknown at this point. Other features such as MRV have been present in previous upgrades on S3's and TiVo HD's, but have not been activated. It's possible that everything is there, but TiVo will need to flip the switch. OR it may be reserved for a few "blessed" or TiVo branded drives. We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## George Cifranci

Do we know if you have a Series 3 that has been hacked with MFSLive to add a eSata drive if the eSata drive still works? I have a Antec MX-1 with a Seagate 750GB DB35 connected via eSata to my Series 3. I am running 9.1 and eSata is working fine. I sure hope 9.2 doesn't break it since I have tons of shows recorded that I need to watch.


----------



## TokyoShoe

George Cifranci said:


> Do we know if you have a Series 3 that has been hacked with MFSLive to add a eSata drive if the eSata drive still works? I have a Antec MX-1 with a Seagate 750GB DB35 connected via eSata to my Series 3. I am running 9.1 and eSata is working fine. I sure hope 9.2 doesn't break it since I have tons of shows recorded that I need to watch.


Actually I have read atleast two posts of folks who got 9.2J and still have their hacked eSATA working. HOWEVER, I think it's important to note that this is still under 9.2j not 9.2FINAL and everything could change once the final version is released.

Yes they could "flip the switch" and finally enable all eSATA drives officially. But right now, given Tivo's track record, it's just as likely that they could flip that switch the other way. They could prevent "unofficial devices" from being bonded AND disable all hacked drives... thus requiring future eSATA devices needing to be purchased through Tivo to get it working.


----------



## Saturn

TiVo, to my knowledge, has never intentionally disabled or broken any of the drive expansion mechanisms that have been used over the years. I wouldn't worry about it too much.


----------



## TokyoShoe

Saturn said:


> TiVo, to my knowledge, has never intentionally disabled or broken any of the drive expansion mechanisms that have been used over the years. I wouldn't worry about it too much.


That is at least a minor amount of reassurance.


----------



## mportuesi

Reassured or not, I'm waiting for the dust to settle on this whole eSATA thing before I make any hardware purchases. If TiVo restricts eSATA to their drives, and they offer poor value, I'd be likely to go with an internal hard drive expansion.


----------



## jeffster

mportuesi said:


> Reassured or not, I'm waiting for the dust to settle on this whole eSATA thing before I make any hardware purchases. If TiVo restricts eSATA to their drives, and they offer poor value, I'd be likely to go with an internal hard drive expansion.


I just got a WD 1TB disk w/MX-1, and plugged it into my 9.2j TivoHD; it recognizes that the drive is there, but won't add it.

Anyone know if the eSATA shortcut hack is function in 9.2 for the HD?

(I can try Monday when I get back in town, but someone should know by now, shouldn't they?)

I get that Tivo doesn't want to get flooded with support calls for every TD&H who installed any ol' hard drive, but it's be cool if there were a way to easily (i.e., not crack open machines and pry out disks) add external drive access even if it's not a supported drive (basically, a YMMV unsupported-use situation).


----------



## MickeS

I got my 9.2 this morning... looking forward to trying out the eSATA!


----------



## richsadams

George Cifranci said:


> Do we know if you have a Series 3 that has been hacked with MFSLive to add a eSata drive if the eSata drive still works? I have a Antec MX-1 with a Seagate 750GB DB35 connected via eSata to my Series 3. I am running 9.1 and eSata is working fine. I sure hope 9.2 doesn't break it since I have tons of shows recorded that I need to watch.


My S3's "A" drive is stock, so I can't say if upgraded internal drives are amenable to the expansion post v9.2.j.

AFAIK there's no reason they wouldn't be, but Spike will probably be the one to let us know. His last post indicated he had a THD w/v9.2.j, but not an S3 yet.


----------



## qili

TokyoShoe said:


> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370629
> 
> 9.2j Enables eSATA for TIVOHD , but apparently only supports Tivo branded and verified "External Storage Solutions" bought from their upcoming new service?


that would be bad.


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## richsadams

TokyoShoe said:


> Actually I have read atleast two posts of folks who got 9.2J and still have their hacked eSATA working. HOWEVER, I think it's important to note that this is still under 9.2j not 9.2FINAL and everything could change once the final version is released.
> 
> Yes they could "flip the switch" and finally enable all eSATA drives officially. But right now, given Tivo's track record, it's just as likely that they could flip that switch the other way. They could prevent "unofficial devices" from being bonded AND disable all hacked drives... thus requiring future eSATA devices needing to be purchased through Tivo to get it working.


Those that upgraded the internal drives on S3's were required to use mfstools to add an eSATA drive as KS62 no longer worked. That's what George was asking about. AFAIK no one with v9.2.j, an upgraded internal HDD and an eSATA drive has posted any info.

TiVo's track record in this area is excellent. After three upgrades everyone's eSATA drives continue to work. There's no reason to believe that won't be the case going forward.

I know you mean well, but try to do your best not to speculate on issues that are new to you, it will only confuse others. Have some patience and this will all be resolved, probably to most people's liking.


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## SCSIRAID

richsadams said:


> My S3's "A" drive is stock, so I can't say if upgraded internal drives are amenable to the expansion post v9.2.j.
> 
> AFAIK there's no reason they wouldn't be, but Spike will probably be the one to let us know. His last post indicated he had a THD w/v9.2.j, but not an S3 yet.


9.2j works fine with already expanded internal drives.


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## richsadams

SCSIRAID said:


> 9.2j works fine with already expanded internal drives.


Already expanded internal drives _with _ eSATA drives as well? If so, good news to hear. :up:


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## SCSIRAID

richsadams said:


> Already expanded internal drives _with _ eSATA drives as well? If so, good news to hear. :up:


My reference was to just internal... no esata.


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## richsadams

SCSIRAID said:


> My reference was to just internal... no esata.


Got it. Thx!


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## HDTiVo

TokyoShoe said:


> That is at least a minor amount of reassurance.


It would be extremely out of character for TiVo to go out and make an effort to stop previously working alternatives from working. Their MO is to give the impression you can only use certain solutions, but never block others.

The TiVo HD wireless USB support is not even applicable as an alternate example, because the TiVo HD is a new product that never supported other adapters before and has very different hardware such that its not as if they simply removed/disabled/blocked useable drivers already in the S3 software.


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## HDTiVo

Hey, wouldn't it be great if TiVo put out a list of bug fixes, known bug issues and new features with their updates?

Heck, how about just a list of new features; you know like some kind of way that someone that didn't read through every inane post on some internet forum for the tiny grain of useful info contained in every thousandth post interposed between utterly mindless gibberish might find out the thing does things other than pause live TV.


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## jgerry

rcamille said:


> Can anyone verify if the "all video and backgrounds" vanishes bug has been fixed with 9.2? What i am referring to is the dreaded black screen where all you get is the TiVo menus, no video on cable channels and no playback on now playing list. Only way to rectify is a reboot.
> 
> I am not sure if that is what people are referring to when they say the menu bug is fixed.
> 
> Thanks


I've got this bug too. I'm sitting here dealing with it right now actually. It's happened to me once before already. Reboot fixed the issue. Right now my TiVo is recording and I don't want to reboot it until it's done. I'm curious to see if the current recording will be playable.

Anyone have updates on this issue, or any more info? I haven't been able to find any info in other threads on this. Is it cablecard related? I have a single M card, from Comcast.

EDIT: I just found a thread on this issue. Seems the key word to search for was "background".

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365824&highlight=background


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## bkdtv

jgerry said:


> I've got this bug too. I'm sitting here dealing with it right now actually. It's happened to me once before already. Reboot fixed the issue. Right now my TiVo is recording and I don't want to reboot it until it's done. I'm curious to see if the current recording will be playable.
> 
> Anyone have updates on this issue, or any more info? I haven't been able to find any info in other threads on this. Is it cablecard related? I have a single M card, from Comcast.


This issue seems to be fixed in 9.2, but 9.2 is still new so we can't be sure yet.

I've seen this under the public 9.1 release but not under 9.2.


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## LisaD

I have no 30 second skip unless I'm doing it wrong. I just got this Saturday and post 9.2 is the first time I tried to program it. I heard the 3 good tones but when I hit the forward or advance - it jumps to the end of the show.


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## bareyb

LisaD said:


> I have no 30 second skip unless I'm doing it wrong. I just got this Saturday and post 9.2 is the first time I tried to program it. I heard the 3 good tones but when I hit the forward or advance - it jumps to the end of the show.


Did you do a restart yet? Try that, and then re-enter the code SELECT-PLAY-SELECT-30-SELECT Do this during a show you have previously recorded for best results. That oughta fix it.

The good news is, with 9.1 onward you never have to enter the code again. It's non-volatile now. The bad news is that 9.1 introduced a bug into 30SS so that it doesn't work as well as it used to. Still works though, you just have to get the code to stick.


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## LisaD

Bareyb - Nice to hear there's hope. I restarted and will try again in the morning. TY


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## TiVoPO

I have had a S3 for about a month now. I have had a S2 for years. I was waiting for the MRV and TiVo Desktop features. Both turn out to have limited use to me, I find, because Cox is blocking most channels from downloading, and my other TiVo is a S2 version. 

But I have to double record everything because the S3 unit is experiencing the reliability issues described in this thread. I didn't even realize it wasn't working until one day I looked at a channel in the process of recording. It was grey. I talked to TiVo customer support two times for about an hour regarding this. I was also freaking out a little about the switched digital video that will be going into effect in the next couple of months here in Phoenix. This is supposedly a super high priority for them. 

Anyway, I have experienced numerous failed to record, and I have the 9.2a software. I also have seen some weird things. I am currently recording Tin Man now. When I went to look at it shortly after it started the screen was grey. I also am recording it on the other TiVo so I didn't worry about it until the closed caption appeared on the S3 screen. I couldn't see or hear the program but could see the CC?? So I blipped back to the menu and went in thought the main menu, and it finally started playing. This is a first.

I don't use the 30 second skip. But I have notice that the 8 second rewind does goofy things like take you all the way to the end of the show you are watching. It has also forgotten the resume place from a show I had previously started and was returning to watch.

And I experience serious pixilization/ cubism effect on high action sequences. I was blaming Cox, but am I reading correctly that the TiVo is causing this? I guess I could hook up a high def STB and see if it has the problem. Thanks in advance for your help.


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## bweeston

I got my TivoHD on November 23rd. I powered it up and forced it to download the firmware update people were talking about. Mine ended up being 9.2a. That update allowed me to connect the Tivo approved eSata My DVR Expander. Nothing different since then. After getting my cablecard installed on November 28th, I have come home after work to find only my basic cable lineup viewable. Rebooting brought all of my premium channels back but I had missed several recordings that I had scheduled on-line. The next day it happened again, so I called Tivo support. They immediately went to the cablecard menu to show me that the "failed to load" messages were an indication that the cablecards were faulty. I called Cox and they did some testing from their end and sensed that the cablecards were not responding correctly. This was from the current state of the TivoHD where nothing but basic cable was being display. Tonight I have a service appointment with Cox to replace the multistream cablecard. I hope that really is the problem, because trying to deal with two different companies to get reliable broadcast reception so I can record will be a big pain in the butt.


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## 1283

bweeston said:


> I called Cox and they did some testing from their end and sensed that the cablecards were not responding correctly.


That's just BS. There is no way to test it remotely because there is no signal sent from the TiVo back to Cox.


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## CrispyCritter

c3 said:


> That's just BS. There is no way to test it remotely because there is no signal sent from the TiVo back to Cox.


I'm not certain about that. I originally thought so, but got corrected by somebody who should know (I've forgotten who). There's nothing sent back from the TiVo software (it's one-way), but the cablecards themselves are two-way and can reply to a signal from the head end. Whether they do on any particular franchise is evidently up to the franchise.


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## 1283

CrispyCritter said:


> the cablecards themselves are two-way and can reply to a signal from the head end.


Based on what I understand (which could be wrong), the TiVo *hardware* does not have a transmitter, so there is no signal path from the CableCard back to the headend.


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## 1283

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

"Products built to the Plug & Play or Digital Cable Ready (DCR) FCC requirements are unidirectional only, and do not include these transmitters and are unable to support two-way services."


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## CrispyCritter

c3 said:


> http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html
> 
> "Products built to the Plug & Play or Digital Cable Ready (DCR) FCC requirements are unidirectional only, and do not include these transmitters and are unable to support two-way services."


I'll see if I can find the messages. There are several different layers of communication going on here, and I can very easily imagine that there is two-way communication on a low layer and only one-way communication on a higher layer.


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## SCSIRAID

bweeston said:


> I got my TivoHD on November 23rd. I powered it up and forced it to download the firmware update people were talking about. Mine ended up being 9.2a. That update allowed me to connect the Tivo approved eSata My DVR Expander. Nothing different since then. After getting my cablecard installed on November 28th, I have come home after work to find only my basic cable lineup viewable. Rebooting brought all of my premium channels back but I had missed several recordings that I had scheduled on-line. The next day it happened again, so I called Tivo support. They immediately went to the cablecard menu to show me that the "failed to load" messages were an indication that the cablecards were faulty. I called Cox and they did some testing from their end and sensed that the cablecards were not responding correctly. This was from the current state of the TivoHD where nothing but basic cable was being display. Tonight I have a service appointment with Cox to replace the multistream cablecard. I hope that really is the problem, because trying to deal with two different companies to get reliable broadcast reception so I can record will be a big pain in the butt.


I have seen the 'failed to load' message before. It was solved with a reboot of the TiVo.


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## SoonerOrLater

rcamille said:


> Can anyone verify if the "all video and backgrounds" vanishes bug has been fixed with 9.2? What i am referring to is the dreaded black screen where all you get is the TiVo menus, no video on cable channels and no playback on now playing list. Only way to rectify is a reboot.
> 
> I am not sure if that is what people are referring to when they say the menu bug is fixed.
> 
> Thanks


I have the same problem on a new Tivo HD DVR (652-0001-8032 batch) with the new update 9.2a-01-2-652.

--------------------
TiVo user since 2000
Current setup:
* TiVo HD DVR v9.2a
* M-Card from Time Warner Cable (California)
* HDMI out @1080i fixed


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## CharlesH

CrispyCritter said:


> I'll see if I can find the messages. There are several different layers of communication going on here, and I can very easily imagine that there is two-way communication on a low layer and only one-way communication on a higher layer.


As I understand it, the cablecards are happy to talk two-way protocols, but they depend on the host to physically have the hardware to transmit the signal upstream on the cable. And current one-way devices like the S3 TiVo don't have that hardware. That is what the "tuning resolver" for SDV provides. Cable company set-top boxes have this hardware, so they can conduct a two-way conversation with the head end, but there is no way for the head end to know anything about the cable card state in a TiVo. All the head end can do is blindly send commands to the cable card, and a human looking at the TV screen attached to the TiVo has to provide the upstream communication.

Don't cable cards just take the digital output from the tuners, and do the appropriate transformations on it? I don't think that they have any physical connection to the cable to enable them to send their own signal upstream without the host's help.


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## bweeston

SCSIRAID said:


> I have seen the 'failed to load' message before. It was solved with a reboot of the TiVo.


Yes. It could be fixed with a reboot. However, I was having to reboot every evening when I came home from work.

There's another thread talking about vanishing video and audio. I had recently switched from component video and optical audio to HDMI video/audio. Once I was on an HDMI connection, I started experiencing the lost of all channels except the basic over night or the next morning. I believe this was occuring because I had turned off my TV (connected by HDMI) and my receiver (the middleman for my HDMI from Tivo to TV).

I went back to component and optical connections and have gone all day without experiencing any channel losses. I believe there is something in the HDMI circuitry that interferes with the cablecard's communication with my cable provider's equipment once the HDMI link is broken.


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## bweeston

bweeston said:


> Yes. It could be fixed with a reboot. However, I was having to reboot every evening when I came home from work.
> 
> There's another thread talking about vanishing video and audio. I had recently switched from component video and optical audio to HDMI video/audio. Once I was on an HDMI connection, I started experiencing the lost of all channels except the basic over night or the next morning. I believe this was occuring because I had turned off my TV (connected by HDMI) and my receiver (the middleman for my HDMI from Tivo to TV).
> 
> I went back to component and optical connections and have gone all day without experiencing any channel losses. I believe there is something in the HDMI circuitry that interferes with the cablecard's communication with my cable provider's equipment once the HDMI link is broken.


I cancelled my Cox trouble ticket. Two days in a row without losing any channels after turning off my TV and receiver. Of course I'm still using component video and optical audio. My problems began after switching to HDMI connections for my TivoHD. I'm pretty close to convinced the HDMI functionality of the TivoHD is somehow interlinked to or interfering with the cablecard bus. The software that manages a broken HDMI link (once the TV is turned off) seems to also send instructions to the cablecard bus to either disable the bus or disrupt communication on the bus for anything that requires decryption (like premium channels).


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## richsadams

bweeston said:


> I cancelled my Cox trouble ticket. Two days in a row without losing any channels after turning off my TV and receiver. Of course I'm still using component video and optical audio. My problems began after switching to HDMI connections for my TivoHD. I'm pretty close to convinced the HDMI functionality of the TivoHD is somehow interlinked to or interfering with the cablecard bus. The software that manages a broken HDMI link (once the TV is turned off) seems to also send instructions to the cablecard bus to either disable the bus or disrupt communication on the bus for anything that requires decryption (like premium channels).


The problem sounds more like an HDCP (content protection for digital media) handshake issue. The signal/link which is carried by the HDMI cable can be broken by turning off some components and not re-established when you turn them back on. If the HDCP handshake is not re-established by the component there's nothing TiVo can do to correct that. Rebooting TiVo simply causes a new connection and resets the HDCP handshake.

Unless you really need HDMI, your component video connection (which doesn't carry the HDCP signal) and an optical (TOSlink) audio connection should serve you very well.

Here's a link to a good article on the subject:

DVI vs. HDMI vs. Component Video -- Which is Better?

Here's a link to a very good article about HDMI and why it is or isn't always the best choice:

Connecting A Home Theater - HDMI

We have both HDMI and Component out from TiVo directly to our HD LCD TV and optical audio to our HT. Just for fun I switch between HDMI and Component now and then just to see if there's a difference...at this point it's barely noticeable either way.


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## leeherman

I used to use a ReplayTV with my SA 8300HD DVR/cable box. 

I would use the ReplayTV to record SD stuff and would only record HD stuff on the SA box.

My initial setup had the cable box going HDMI to the TV. I'd get a message (don't remember exactly) implying HDCP issues when the TV was off.

At a later point I upgraded my A/V receiver to an HDMI unit, connected the cable box and TV to it. Once I did that, the receiver satisfied the cable box HDCP handshake, even when off, and I never had the HDCP error again.

My S3 now replaces the ReplayTV AND SA 8300HD and I have no problems with HDCP issues. It's connected HDMI to the receiver.

Hope this helps!


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