# Homeland S02E12 "The Choice" 12/16/2012



## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

Sooooo.. That happened. No thread yet, figure I'd make one.

So Carrie thinks she can just come back after helping him flee?


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

There were too many plot holes to count.

Quinn suddenly falls in love with Carrie and Brody seconds before shooting Brody?

Estes has balls of steel but becomes a little girl when threatened by Quinn?

No one bothers to check cars for bombs when they enter CIA headquarters? That's standard procedure at every sensitive building in DC. (The guy with the mirror on a pole that he sticks under the car)

Every other CIA bigwig was at the ceremony but not Saul? The President doesn't show up for a major event honoring his dead VP?

Brody's face is on every tv screen and newspaper in the world but a false driver's license will be enough for him to escape?

Jeez.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Boring boring boring boring BOOM boring boring


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## Odds Bodkins (Jun 7, 2006)

Yep... I'm out.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

Alan Sepinwall's review: http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/season-finale-review-homeland-the-choice-this-is-your-life

And more plot holes occurred to me. You have the biggest terror attack since 9/11. Your prime suspect is Brody. The most the FBI can muster to search the prime suspect's house is 4 agents, who appear to mostly just wander around it and allow his family to stay there while they "search". Sepinwall mentioned a good one - with all the security surrounded the ceremony, no one noticed that a lone car was parked near the building.

The bombing was near DC. Carrie and Brody drive to the Canadian border. The closest walking across point would be in upstate New York. That's a minimum 9-10 hour drive each way, yet Carrie is back with Saul only a relatively short time after the bombing.

Dana didn't seem too concerned that Finn was blown up, although she did have a lot on her mind.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> No one bothers to check cars for bombs when they enter CIA headquarters? That's standard procedure at every sensitive building in DC. (The guy with the mirror on a pole that he sticks under the car)


Assuming Brody was not lying, I don't think we are supposed to believe that the bomb was actually in the car when he arrived. I think the idea is that someone put the c4 into the car after he parked it, having cleared the security checkpoint. It is unclear why the car was allowed to be parked at the closer location, however.



> Every other CIA bigwig was at the ceremony but not Saul? The President doesn't show up for a major event honoring his dead VP?


Saul had a convenient excuse. Do we actually know that the President wasn't there? Basic writing logic tells us he wasn't (because it was not mentioned or shown) but let's not put it past them to retcon that in next season.



> Brody's face is on every tv screen and newspaper in the world but a false driver's license will be enough for him to escape?


That's why they were walking across the border, but it does seem unlikely that his fake ID is going to be of much use without any sort of disguise.


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

They've been hinting about a mole in the CIA for 1.5 seasons now. It makes sense that the mole in the CIA put the explosives in Brody's car and moved it.

We know Brody did not park there, so we know some of what he says is true. It wouldn't shock me if he was in on it though. He could have conveniently left his car open, with keys in the ignition so the mole could move it.

Carrie is an idiot thinking Brody is a good man.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

For me, the best scenes in the finale were the ones with Saul. I have no interest in the Carrie/Brody relationship.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

Ugh, I had to FF thru every Brody-Carrie scene; it was burning my eyes + boring, boring, boring as noted above! 

I think I'm out too.

I may watch, but only if they bring back Saul, Quinn and Dar Adal. No need to bring back Carrie. Hopefully Brody is done, but I guess they need to resolve the story some more...

:down:


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Bob Coxner said:


> Every other CIA bigwig was at the ceremony but not Saul? The President doesn't show up for a major event honoring his dead VP?


This was a specific CIA memorial for the VP, not a presidential or general one. Wasn't the VP previously the head of the CIA? So that's why they'd memorialize him in a separate ceremony that the President wouldn't attend.

But yeah, so many plot holes.. and the Carrie+Brody scenes in the cabin made me want to vomit. Carrie just escaped from Nazir, and Brody was there when the VP was killed, and the next day essentially they're off in the woods cavorting like teenagers like nothing ever happened? Come on! I thought for sure they'd be seriously stratagizing about the VP blowback in Brody's direction. Nope - he's free and clear to go off with Carrie.

Of course,there will be video footage of Carrie and Brody leaving the ceremony minutes before the blast. And Brody's body of course won't be found. Pretty damming, especially after that phone call Brody had telling him how to stay out of the blast zone at the first bombing attempt.

There's no way they'd make Carrie station chief with this kind of evidence against her, even though she had nothing really to do with it.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

Hank said:


> Of course,there will be video footage of Carrie and Brody leaving the ceremony minutes before the blast. And Brody's body of course won't be found. Pretty damming, especially after that phone call Brody had telling him how to stay out of the blast zone at the first bombing attempt.


This was the CIA. There should also be video of Brody parking his car, then someone else going to his car, putting something in, moving it, and then parking it right outside the window of the auditorium and then leaving.

Unless a CIA mole managed to cut the video or erase the recording.


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## aadam101 (Jul 15, 2002)

Bob Coxner said:


> Dana didn't seem too concerned that Finn was blown up, although she did have a lot on her mind.


I found it strange that Finn asked about Dana at his dead father's service. You would think HE would have a lot on his mind. I guess it's true what they say about teenage boys.


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

robojerk said:


> ... Carrie is an idiot thinking Brody is a good man.


I loved Saul's line to Carrie: "You're the smartest and the dumbest f-ing person I've ever known." Those were his last words to her before the explosion where he thought she had died.

And I loved that last scene with Saul saying the prayer amongst the impromptu morgue as Carrie's voice calls to him faintly as a ghost as he continues his prayer, then louder until he turns to see her, alive. Patinkin's acting in that final scene was amazing. He said so much with just his look of tortured relief.

I can't wait for next season. And if these threads turn into the inevitable moaning and complaining about how awful the show is, then I will just avoid the forum in order to fully enjoy the show on my own.


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## jr461 (Jul 9, 2004)

jehma said:


> For me, the best scenes in the finale were the ones with Saul. I have no interest in the Carrie/Brody relationship.


This. By far my favorite character on the show.

On the other hand, I do not watch with a mindset of finding the plot holes, or even caring that much about what has been mentioned here. While I do recognize some of the issues brought up here, it doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the show (although those prolonged scenes with Carrie and Brody do!).


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

getreal said:


> And if these threads turn into the inevitable moaning and complaining about how awful the show is, then I will just avoid the forum in order to fully enjoy the show on my own.


I'm not sure if that is the carrot or the stick part of the threat.


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## ToddNeedsTiVo (Sep 2, 2003)

The thread name should be corrected, as this was season 2, episode 12.

The first half of the episode I was lamenting to my wife how I couldn't see how they could keep Brody "in play" as a meaningful character, since things were seemingly done with Nazir. I was ready for Quinn to pull the trigger and lead to a new focus on things next season, in terms of lead male character. Plausibility issues aside, they've at least given themselves several options for Brody.

I call BS on Carrie and Brody nonchalantly driving away from the bomb scene. Surely the entire complex would have been on INSTANT lockdown.

I liked her bug out bag. That would almost make Michael Westen blush.

I'm still wondering why they would use someone like F. Murray Abraham for so little on-screen time. Perhaps there is more to come on that character.

And now that Carrie has wandered back in so many hours later, much to Saul's relief, she definitely has some splainin' to do about her whereabouts during that time.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

I sorta predicted it. As it went along I could see that this was the only way they could carry the "Is he or isn't he?" story onto another season.

I was looking for Brody to be putting on the vest again.

The "he is a terrorist!" angle would be a major cheat. There's no way that Brody would have gone along with the video coming out. The bomb and the video was Nazir's way of getting Brody. We have Mike knowing that Brody was talking like he wouldn't be around anymore.

There is now way in hell that Brody could hide anywhere without meting his face off. He's the most famous villain in the world now. How about the scandal that "THIS GUY WAS APPOINTED TO CONGRESS!!!!!" 

Now we can have Dana's angst as she thinks her father killed her boyfriend. She still could break down with what she knows, maybe attempt suicide.

Now Saul is the boss. Carrie tries to find evidence of Brody's innocence.

Oh! If Estes had offed Brody the attack couldn't have happened! Now Quinn and Dar Adal will go after Brody?

The show did go off the rails...but it didn't have whole lot of ways to go. Sad.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Although I don't agree that some of the shortcomings of prior episodes were necessary for this episode as some of the show runners indicated, I did enjoy this episode a fair amount and think some of the plot holes weren't THAT bad this episode. I think we are at a point in this show where we are much more aware of plot holes than we should be due to some gaping ones in prior episodes this season. They have lost a fair amount of credibility and as such we are less inclined to employ our suspension of disbelief.

Looking back, a lot of what happened in season 1 required that suspension of disbelief. I had mostly lost it by the end of season 1 and then regained it during the beginning of season 2 between improved writing and the simple fact of a time lapse.

I think they moved back towards quality this episode, even if not completely. I am looking forward to season 3 and think they have set up a good framework for it. Contrast this with other shows where we have felt betrayed by the writing -- BSG, for example. I don't have the sense that I simply don't care what happens because the writing is arbitrary and unplanned. It does oscillate a bit, but on the whole it is good TV.

It is very clear to me that the writing was planned out pretty well, and that the characters still have gravitas (even if some of their interactions don't). I still care about the story much more than I ever did in 24, and much more than in most shows.

Is it my favorite show on TV right now? No, not any longer -- it was a toss-up with GoT and now GoT clearly stands above it. I also think I like Fringe a bit more which has only gotten better the past 1.5 seasons. Still, it is a very good show, by far the best show on Showtime. I still like it a lot and feel that, though it has stumbled, it hasn't jumped the shark.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Here is a link to a very brief interview with the showrunners. Only mildly spoilery, in a "here's some rough ideas and thoughts for next season" kinda way.

http://tvline.com/2012/12/17/homeland-season-3-spoilers-damian-lewis-morena-baccarin-snl/

As to this episode. I liked it. Like most all of us, I kept thinking the last few episodes weren't quite "right". Bad guys doing things that didn't make sense. Like Abu Nazir in the tunnels. And tonight we saw why. The writers were playing the long con on us. And it worked!

Yeah, you can nitpick a lot of stuff. And some of it *will* have to be revisited (where was Carrie after the explosion, for example). But I'm not interested in looking for small tears in the fabric of reality (Canada too far from DC). I think they did a masterful job in resetting the game/story line. We now know the basics of next season. And we have Saul back!:up:


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Or what TAs said much better, right above me. Posted 30 secs before me.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

ToddNeedsTiVo said:


> I call BS on Carrie and Brody nonchalantly driving away from the bomb scene. Surely the entire complex would have been on INSTANT lockdown.


:up::up:

Yes! I thought the same exact thing!!

Gerry


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Bob Coxner said:


> Every other CIA bigwig was at the ceremony but not Saul? The President doesn't show up for a major event honoring his dead VP?


I have very suspicious feelings about Saul. I think his wife has something to do with Saul him being something other than what he appears, and now she is back. 
Remember in season 1 when the rug in Saul's office was pointedly referred to? That made me suspicious of him way back then. Then this episode, when Carrie and Brody run off to an office to make out I wondered if that was Saul's office because the rug was visually prominent.

As for the president not being at the memorial, I would think the continuity of government plan would have him in a bunker somewhere until a new VP has been nominated and everything has settled down.


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## efilippi (Jul 24, 2001)

I too thought the Saul wife thing was a bit unbelievable. I'm not sure I can therefore call her a bad guy or not, but her offering to come back with that 'you poor thing' tone in her voice just doesn't mesh with what I remember of her.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

efilippi said:


> I too thought the Saul wife thing was a bit unbelievable. I'm not sure I can therefore call her a bad guy or not, but her offering to come back with that 'you poor thing' tone in her voice just doesn't mesh with what I remember of her.


But then the look of...shock? Anger? Disgust?...on her face when he accepted her offer told a different story. She obviously expected him to say "No, don't do that..."


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

efilippi said:


> I too thought the Saul wife thing was a bit unbelievable. I'm not sure I can therefore call her a bad guy or not, but her offering to come back with that 'you poor thing' tone in her voice just doesn't mesh with what I remember of her.


It's suspicious. There is something up with either her or Saul or both.

BTW, every time I hear his last name I think of the cartoon family of bears.


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

Anybody defending this crap is just plain refusing to see what they're being shown.

How(why) is it that Quinn is all of a sudden 20-30 feet away from Brody with a weapon designed for, and most effective at long range?

A H-46 Chinook approaching the USS Missouri(BB-63) which is a museum on battleship row.

Saul then debarking a H-3 Sea King, which was moments later also clearly shown on the flight deck of what appears to be a WWII era aircraft carrier since the Missouri has no such area below it's helo pad where the body was being commited to the sea.

Crody leaving what has just become the nation's biggest crime scene completely unchallenged or noticed.

They arrive at the storage unit in a sedan, then they are shown in a SUV upon arrival at the document forger. That must be one stupedously magical bug out bag, that would make Michael Westen as green as The Hulk with envy.(not just blush)

The whole premise that this attack could take place at all, much less in the manner that it did, or the depicted size of the explosion and the extent of the damage. (we've already seen a similar scenario, in the same size vehicle on NCIS, and that one was much more believable, and I'm guessing accurate too, in it's scope)

I do agree Patinkin knocked it out of the park in the final scene though.


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## BradJW (Jun 9, 2008)

getreal said:


> I can't wait for next season. And if these threads turn into the inevitable moaning and complaining about how awful the show is, then I will just avoid the forum in order to fully enjoy the show on my own.


I'm right there with you!


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Archangel00 said:


> Anybody defending this crap is just plain refusing to see what they're being shown.
> ...
> I do agree Patinkin knocked it out of the park in the final scene though.


At this point we have to give up on just logic, much less technical details.

I'll bet there is no way you can bring a vehicle anywhere near the building at Langley. They did have a shooter in the parking lot not very long ago.

I couldn't figure out why they obviously were using Claire's double for the reverse shots when Saul was taking to Carrie in the hallway. You just saw her hair bobbing trying to match how she did her end. That's gotta make it needlessly tough for the guy on camera to act his side of the dialog.


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Archangel00 said:


> <snip>


Which helo on which battleship are non-issues for me.

I don't disagree that there are some obvious questions. Like how they got out of the Langley parking lot. They'll either answer them, or they won't. But I enjoy the show and will continue to watch.

A couple episodes ago everyone was ragging on how easily they caught Abu Nazir, and what BS that was. It's now clear the writers knew what they were doing every step of the way. Is it perfect? Not even close. Is it fun to watch? Hell yeah!



netringer said:


> I couldn't figure out why they obviously were using Claire's double for the reverse shots when Saul was taking to Carrie in the hallway.


Claire Danes is pregnant.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

astrohip said:


> A couple episodes ago everyone was ragging on how easily they caught Abu Nazir, and what BS that was. It's now clear the writers knew what they were doing every step of the way.


Really?

I remember everybody ragging on how stupid the FBI SWAT team that was searching for him in the tunnels was, not how easily they captured Nazir.

And that's how it's been all season...people do incredibly stupid or unbelievable things because the writers need them to in order to hit the next plot point. The storytelling of the show has become embarrassingly bad. And the soap opera relationships are almost a parody of the first season. Instead of Carrie's relationship with Brody being in the context of her highly disturbing sex life, now it's some grand, epic romance. Instead of Carrie being seen as an obsessive and literally insane woman (who happens to be right, but nobody knows that), now everybody knows that she's superwoman (although she still makes the crazy-face, even though she no longer does much that's actually crazy). The show has become simply ridiculous.

The only thing that saves it at all is astonishing acting. And it's a monumental tribute to, really, the entire cast that they can take material this wretched and make it seem at least somewhat compelling.


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I saw it in 48fps and loved every minute! Non-distracting 3D, and bringing in Mandy Patinkin as Radagast was a brilliant maneuver.

Greg


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## getreal (Sep 29, 2003)

gchance said:


> I saw it in 48fps and loved every minute! Non-distracting 3D, and bringing in Mandy Patinkin as Radagast was a brilliant maneuver.
> 
> Greg


Are you in the right thread?


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

I'm not sure, all these threads run together with so many folks who simply can't be entertained anymore.

Greg


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## dwells (Nov 3, 2001)

getreal said:


> I can't wait for next season. And if these threads turn into the inevitable moaning and complaining about how awful the show is, then I will just avoid the forum in order to fully enjoy the show on my own.


I am so glad I am not the only one with this opinion. I am sure I am going to get flamed big time, but for the life of me I cannot understand the unbelievable, incredible scrutiny that television shows are subjected to by people like us who post on message boards.

I agree 100% that in season 2, there have been a bunch of plot holes (although, as Sepinwall pointed out, some of them were somewhat explained or at least mitigated with this episode). There were more than a few moments where I rolled my eyes- the biggest for me, and the one that I cannot defend, was Brody being alone in the room when the VP dies, and no one even thinks to think of him as being responsible.

But there is pretty much no television show or movie that can stand up to the microscopic nit picking that goes on today. I can't believe that after watching this show for 2 seasons, that anyone can just say-"that's it, I am out- I am not watching this ever again".

Its just a television show- I just don't get how every show, every scene has to be perfection, or all hell breaks loose in the message board community. If you hold everything to this level of expectation, you are bound to be disappointed by everything you watch on television- I don't see how you can be satisfied with any show. Nothing can live up to that kind of scrutiny. Reading this thread sounds just like the Killing threads after last season.

I would like to know what shows the people who moan and complain about this one watch- because to me its a very small list of shows that are better and more entertaining than this one.

As I said, I agree 100% that this season, as a whole, was not as good as season 1, and that there were too many plot holes and things that just would not happen in real life. But this is entertainment, not a documentary.

Yes, the show could have been even better than it is- agree 100%- but it is still an incredibly entertaining television show, one that, even with the holes, is better than 99% of the crap that is on television today.

Again, just to be clear, I agree with some of the criticism on here- but that is not enough to make me quit the show or to not say that it is still one of the best things on television. Like getreal, I can't wait for another season, and will be watching to the end.

Just my opinion- I am sure I'm going to be in the vast minority and get killed for these comments, but I would love to know if there is anyone else out there still entertained enough to keep watching, and enjoying, the next season.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

Dwells, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it's a matter of expectations. They set up the first season to be some of the best TV in recent memory. Different, exciting, believable.

But now they've taken that all away,and we're disappointed. We all want it to go back to the way it was. And since it's not that, it's frustrating to see all these plot holes you can drive a car[bomb] through.

So think of it more as venting than criticizing. It's still a good show, but it moved from "you know, this could actually happen" to "eh, it's just a bunch of drama/action writing and I *really* have to suspend my disbelief to watch the show". I'm not saying it jumped the shark, but it's gone way past "believable" now, unfortunately.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

Hank said:


> It's still a good show, but it moved from "you know, this could actually happen" to "eh, it's just a bunch of drama/action writing and I *really* have to suspend my disbelief to watch the show".


Or "Beat my suspension of disbelief into unconsciousness and lock it in the cellar."

I'm not even sure it's a good show any more. I think it's a bad show with sensational acting. Can you imagine what this season would have been like with ordinary actors? At least I have almost a year to decide if that acting makes it worth watching.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

BTW, during last weeks discussion about if/when/how Brody was going away, I was wondering what they would do with the opening credits. 

Interestingly, this last episode had no opening credits at all.


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## Carlucci (Jan 10, 2001)

This show needs to evolve and become mostly about Saul. For me, they have utterly blown it if they think they can make Carrie into a dishonorable protaganist. Other shows have done this, and done it well. I have surprised myself for rooting for heinous characters like Vic Mackey, Dexter, and Walter White, but I have nothing but revulsion and contempt for Carrie right now, and I don't know how they could ever win me back to Carrie's side.

Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about? 

He saved her life, I get that. But crazy or not, someone as deeply affected by 9/11 as she was, would never let a terrorist go free. Brody could still be a wealth of information, and sending him to Gitmo for 3 hots and a cot while she tries to clear his name would have been a much better redemptive act on her part, if the goal of the show is to still make me care about her as a patriotic law enforcement agent.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Carlucci said:


> This show needs to evolve and become mostly about Saul. For me, they have utterly blown it if they think they can make Carrie into a dishonorable protaganist. Other shows have done this, and done it well. I have surprised myself for rooting for heinous characters like Vic Mackey, Dexter, and Walter White, but I have nothing but revulsion and contempt for Carrie right now, and I don't know how they could ever win me back to Carrie's side.
> 
> Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?
> 
> He saved her life, I get that. But crazy or not, someone as deeply affected by 9/11 as she was, would never let a terrorist go free. Brody could still be a wealth of information, and sending him to Gitmo for 3 hots and a cot while she tries to clear his name would have been a much better redemptive act on her part, if the goal of the show is to still make me care about her as a patriotic law enforcement agent.


Not to mention the fact that she was complicit in the VPs murder.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

jehma said:


> Not to mention the fact that she was complicit in the VPs murder.


And then there's the whole hiding the fact that you're literally insane from your employer who happens to be the CIA thing, which should be pretty much a career-stopper, not a stepping stone to Station Chief...

I think a lot of what went wrong with the show stems from how good and unconventional the first season was. There was really no way back from a lot of things (Carrie's CIA career, Brody's terrorism), but they had to walk it back to convert it from a brilliant season into an ongoing series.

I've never seen the original, nor do I know much about it. But I wouldn't be surprised if the first season was a pretty direct adaptation, and the second the American producers trying to find their own way.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

Carlucci said:


> This show needs to evolve and become mostly about Saul. For me, they have utterly blown it if they think they can make Carrie into a dishonorable protaganist. Other shows have done this, and done it well. I have surprised myself for rooting for heinous characters like Vic Mackey, Dexter, and Walter White, but I have nothing but revulsion and contempt for Carrie right now, and I don't know how they could ever win me back to Carrie's side.
> 
> Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?
> 
> He saved her life, I get that. But crazy or not, someone as deeply affected by 9/11 as she was, would never let a terrorist go free. Brody could still be a wealth of information, and sending him to Gitmo for 3 hots and a cot while she tries to clear his name would have been a much better redemptive act on her part, if the goal of the show is to still make me care about her as a patriotic law enforcement agent.


Well there's your problem, it is NOT the goal of the show to make her a patriotic law enforcement agent.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

Setting aside all the plot holes, I still have a huge problem with the Carrie-Brody romance. Sexual heat, ok, I can buy that. Making eyes and playing house at the cabin by the lake, no, that was embarrassing. Carrie risking her dream career for a married terrorist with children? 

I was a huge Carrie fan in season 1. Season 2 turned her into a ridiculous figure and very unlikeable.

For those enjoying Mandy Patinkin's performance, check out Dead Like Me. His character there had much the same attitude and it was a great show.


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## jehma (Jan 22, 2003)

Bob Coxner said:


> For those enjoying Mandy Patinkin's performance, check out Dead Like Me. His character there had much the same attitude and it was a great show.


I loved him in Dead Like Me :up:


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

Interview with Showrunners by Maureen Ryan. No real spoilers, only in a very broad sense, as in their thoughts on how they might play the next season.

This is a different interview than the one I posted yesterday.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/homeland-season-finale_n_2316656.html


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## ireland967 (Feb 27, 2003)

Carlucci said:


> This show needs to evolve and become mostly about Saul. For me, they have utterly blown it if they think they can make Carrie into a dishonorable protaganist. Other shows have done this, and done it well. I have surprised myself for rooting for heinous characters like Vic Mackey, Dexter, and Walter White, but I have nothing but revulsion and contempt for Carrie right now, and I don't know how they could ever win me back to Carrie's side.
> 
> Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?
> 
> He saved her life, I get that. But crazy or not, someone as deeply affected by 9/11 as she was, would never let a terrorist go free. Brody could still be a wealth of information, and sending him to Gitmo for 3 hots and a cot while she tries to clear his name would have been a much better redemptive act on her part, if the goal of the show is to still make me care about her as a patriotic law enforcement agent.


I agree with everything here. With the awards the show, Lewis and Danes received I suppose Showtime was keen on keeping them around as long as possible. The plot holes bother me, but not enough to keep from watching the show


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## gchance (Dec 6, 2002)

astrohip said:


> Interview with Showrunners by Maureen Ryan. No real spoilers, only in a very broad sense, as in their thoughts on how they might play the next season.
> 
> This is a different interview than the one I posted yesterday.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/homeland-season-finale_n_2316656.html


In Sepinwall's article, he mentions the showrunners would be having a post-mortem conference call this morning, and he'd be posting about it later. I'm thinking that's what Maureen Ryan's interview is from. Maybe. 

Greg


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## astrohip (Jan 7, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Interview with Showrunners by Maureen Ryan. No real spoilers, only in a very broad sense, as in their thoughts on how they might play the next season.
> 
> This is a different interview than the one I posted yesterday.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/homeland-season-finale_n_2316656.html


Alan Sepinwall's take on the same interview...

http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-wa...future-sauls-loyalties-and-more-from-season-2

One excerpt, addressing the "keep the stars around" controversy...



> But Gordon also acknowledged that any motivation they would have for keeping Lewis in the fold wouldn't come from the fact that he's the reigning Emmy winner for lead actor in a drama series.
> 
> "Obviously, you can't let the tail wag the dog," he said. "All the awards in the world won't give rise to a character or a story that's either run its course or had whatever shelf life it has. As Alex has said, we love this relationship, it's become one of the defining pillars of the show... Whenever the relationship is no longer the center of the show. I think as tempting as it is, and as afraid as we are, you can't let all the awards and acclaim  and Damian's brilliance  dictate the story in terms of where it needs to go."


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

astrohip said:


> ...Claire Danes is pregnant.


YeahIKnow. How much baby bump you gonna see from her back? I'm guessing she couldn't stand very long.

Then again, if you watched the last ep closely you can see where they cut to the double in full length long shots, mostly when she's walking away.

They also have her in really loose navy blue blouses and pants.


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## Gerryex (Apr 24, 2004)

dwells said:


> I am so glad I am not the only one with this opinion. I am sure I am going to get flamed big time, but for the life of me I cannot understand the unbelievable, incredible scrutiny that television shows are subjected to by people like us who post on message boards.
> 
> I agree 100% that in season 2, there have been a bunch of plot holes
> 
> ...


:up:

I agree 100%. Yes, this season was not as great as last season and its getting a little more like "24" in some of its unbelieveable plot holes. BUT its still orders of magnitude better than most of the other shows out there and I DO look forward to the next season!!

Gerry


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

Carlucci said:


> ...Is her mission in the next season going to be to try to clear Brody's name, after all he's done that only she knows about?
> ...


Sure. Carrie will prove to Saul that Brody didn't have anything to do with the car bomb, ....ummm becuase she was with him looking to get some nookie in Saul's office so they can clear his name...except for that A MEMBER OF CONGRESS attempted a plot to blow up the Vice-President of the United States and SecDef with a suicide vest - complete with video confession, murdered Tom Walker on Nazir's order, caused the death of the tailor bomb maker while attempting to save him, and paid a key role in the murder of the Vice-President, Brody is CLEAN!

Oh. There's that minor matter of the coverup of the hit-and-run death that will make for a nice weekend news story.

Then Carrie and Nick live happily ever after. 

Brody can write a memoir and get rich!


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

Hank said:


> Dwells, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think it's a matter of expectations. They set up the first season to be some of the best TV in recent memory. Different, exciting, believable.


Not really. Season 1 had a lot of plot problems and holes towards the end. It had just earned a bit of slack by then. This season certainly had more plot issues, but it's not like everything in season 1 was credible.


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

But it was credible "enough". That's my point.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Bob Coxner said:


> There were too many plot holes to count.
> 
> Quinn suddenly falls in love with Carrie and Brody seconds before shooting Brody?
> 
> ...


Those are only plot holes if you're bound and determined to find them.

1) Quinn didn't "fall in love" with Carrie and Brody. He just realized there was no reason to kill them. (Of course, as it turns out, he was wrong). He's allowed to have his own moral code, especially when the entire op was off the books and Estes has no control over him. (See below.)

2) Estes is a suit - and a former analyst. Quinn is a wet ops killer. He knows that Quinn could kill him without batting an eye and no one would ever know, and he also knows that he has no direct control over him (the CIA has two separate branches: Intelligence and Ops, and Estes is Deputy Director on the Intelligence side, but has no direct control over the Ops side. Quinn reports to Dar Adal, not Estes).

3) I'm assuming that whoever planted the C4 did it after Brody passed through security. Presumably the same person also moved Brody's Tahoe so that it would maximize the carnage.

4) This was a private CIA ceremony because Walden was formerly the head of the CIA. Presumably the President was present at whatever formal funeral there was. Saul was not high enough in the CIA to where he would have had to be there. (Since Estes was DDI, at most Saul was the head of a sub-group), and he probably didn't want to be there.

5) Not really - wasn't the plan to walk over the border at an unmanned area, and then get on a private boat? I can't remember the details. But they certainly didn't rely exclusively on fake IDs.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

Bob Coxner said:


> And more plot holes occurred to me. You have the biggest terror attack since 9/11. Your prime suspect is Brody. The most the FBI can muster to search the prime suspect's house is 4 agents, who appear to mostly just wander around it and allow his family to stay there while they "search". Sepinwall mentioned a good one - with all the security surrounded the ceremony, no one noticed that a lone car was parked near the building.
> 
> The bombing was near DC. Carrie and Brody drive to the Canadian border. The closest walking across point would be in upstate New York. That's a minimum 9-10 hour drive each way, yet Carrie is back with Saul only a relatively short time after the bombing.
> 
> Dana didn't seem too concerned that Finn was blown up, although she did have a lot on her mind.


Still not plot holes.

1) This was inside a presumably secure perimeter, so security would probably be a little lax. That's what Nazir was counting on - that people's guard would be let down. There has to be a mole who placed the C4 in Brody's Tahoe and then moved it next to the building.

2) It seemed like Carrie came back the day after the bombin, no? The bombing took place during the daytime. Carrie said goodbye to Brody the border drop-off at night, and then it was daylight when she showed herself to Saul.

3) Seriously? You think that's a _plot_ hole?


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## robojerk (Jun 13, 2006)

DreadPirateRob said:


> 1) Quinn didn't "fall in love" with Carrie and Brody. He just realized there was no reason to kill them. (Of course, as it turns out, he was wrong). He's allowed to have his own moral code, especially when the entire op was off the books and Estes has no control over him. (See below.)


Nope. If you're job is to be an assassin for the CIA, how in what way is it acceptable to not do the job. Him not doing the task he was given to do is foolish.

Also the same CIA, in both fiction and non-fiction worlds, collect info and organize drone strikes. Innocents get caught up all the time in drone strikes but it's deemed acceptable. Brody is also anything but an innocent. He wore a suicide bomb, he helped kill the VP (even though no one never looked into how/why the VP died suddenly. Really?!). Even if we just ignored the fact Estes and the VP were dirty and killing Brody would cover up their sins, Brody deserved to die.

The writers intentionally wrote the fact that no one investigated the sudden heart attack of the VP, that Quinn is now a black ops guy with a conscience (which will probably eat at him next season if he's still on the show), and true love conquers all, even though the people in love are bat **** crazy.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

We don't know that it was even the next day that carrie was back. I thought they made some throw away remark that it would take days to clear out the bodies, and then we saw all of them in a body bag. I had assumed it had been a couple of days.


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## markp99 (Mar 21, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> We don't know that it was even the next day that carrie was back. I thought they made some throw away remark that it would take days to clear out the bodies, and then we saw all of them in a body bag. I had assumed it had been a couple of days.


Yep, Heard that line; this was my thought too. They needed to account for the drive time.


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

robojerk said:


> Nope. If you're job is to be an assassin for the CIA, how in what way is it acceptable to not do the job. Him not doing the task he was given to do is foolish.


The point was that Estes had no operational control over Quinn, and the whole thing was entirely off the books. Quinn was and is Dar Adul's guy. Presumably Estes asked Dar Adul for a favor, and Dar Adul lent him Quinn. Who knows - maybe Quinn talked to Dar Adul and Dar Adul told him that killing Brody was no longer an imperative. We didn't see that happen, but that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. But you seem to assume that just because Estes still wanted him to take out Brody that Quinn was obligated to do so. That is not the case.


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## john4200 (Nov 1, 2009)

robojerk said:


> If you're job is to be an assassin for the CIA, how in what way is it acceptable to not do the job.


How? It was an unlawful order. He had a duty not to obey it.


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## TAsunder (Aug 6, 2003)

john4200 said:


> How? It was an illegal order.


Also, does the CIA even have jurisdiction to do that in the US?


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

It's "Dar Adal" according to Showtime's twitter feed (and other sources).


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

TAsunder said:


> Also, does the CIA even have jurisdiction to do that in the US?


Ganza has admitted that the CIA operating within the US is a major fiction. Not only can they not assassinate people (anywhere - in theory) They can't even do intelligence gathering inside the US.


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

DreadPirateRob said:


> Those are only plot holes if you're bound and determined to find them.
> 
> 1) Quinn didn't "fall in love" with Carrie and Brody. He just realized there was no reason to kill them. (Of course, as it turns out, he was wrong). He's allowed to have his own moral code, especially when the entire op was off the books and Estes has no control over him. (See below.)
> 
> ...


Estes could have put Quinn on the team without putting him in charge of the team. If his role was to deal with Bordy at the nd, he didn't need to run the op to do that.

He knew Quinn even had the skills in surveillance and tactics?


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## DreadPirateRob (Nov 12, 2002)

netringer said:


> Estes could have put Quinn on the team without putting him in charge of the team. If his role was to deal with Bordy at the nd, he didn't need to run the op to do that.
> 
> He knew Quinn even had the skills in surveillance and tactics?


You misunderstand me. My point was that:

1) Estes is the one that wanted Brody dead, partly because Brody knew about his involvement with the drone strike.

2) Estes put Quinn on Saul's team per some agreement with Dar Adal, presumably with the understanding that Quinn would kill Brody once it was over.

3) Despite Estes putting Quinn on the team, Estes had no real control over Quinn - Quinn was and is Dar Adal's man, and Quinn/Dar Adal and Estes are under different chains of command within the CIA (Intel versus Ops) - so despite Estes' wishes that Quinn take out Brody, he could not order or otherwise force him to do so if Quinn opted not to (unless, of course, Dar Adal told Quinn to go forward with it - we don't know at this point whether that happened).

4) In any event, Estes' hit on Brody was undoubtedly an illegal order, so Quinn would be free to disregard if he had the backbone to stand up to Estes. The CIA does not engage in hits on foreign leaders, much less sitting US Congressmen.


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## mrdazzo7 (Jan 8, 2006)

Finally got a chance to watch... I agree with a lot of others, it was a bit of a mess. For starters, the first 40 minutes was the most uneventful/un-thrilling period of time in the two seasons of the show.

*Carrie and Brody: *The entire Carrie/Brody "we'll throw away our lives and give up everything we love to be together" angle is a major miscalculation in my opinion. It's so absurd and far-fetched that it takes me out of the show (since caring for the two leads is an integral part of investment in a story)... Like someone else said, I could by some kind of misguided, temporary sexual tension and maybe some action, but the way they're forcing this as some kind of "romeo and juliet"/doomed lovers thing isn't flying with me. Especially her giving up the CIA for someone she knows plotted a major terrorist attack, and who killed the vice president (under duress or not). And someone who she previously hated and wanted to bring down in a way she'd never felt before.

*The Bomb: *My first thoughts on the car bomb were that the writers started digging in their "24" playbook because nothing about it made any sense... I'm assuming there is security cameras that show Brody parking the car, and then eventually someone else loading it with enough explosives to do what it did, and moving it behind a big ass window that over 200 people were facing. Granted we don't know the details yet so if it turns out that a CIA mole disabled somehow disabled the cameras then loaded and moved the car with absolutely no detection, then that would be SOMEWHAT believable (believable within the scope of this show, not any reality).

I also have to see how they proceed with Carrie next season - there is no way she just pops back up and isn't under immediate suspicion. They know she was in the room. They know she wasn't in the blast and subsequently wasn't anywhere to be found for another 24 hours (or more). What is her explanation?

I was surprised to see the tape get released, that I didn't see coming. I though the acting in that scene was excellent. They were all completely stunned. I was also laughing at Brody getting and roaming around with a fake ID as if that would do *anything* at this point. He's officially responsible for the worst domestic attack since 9/11. If he's not dead or captured in the season premiere, I might be done.

I did like the twist that he tried to commit an attack but couldn't go through with it, then got caught and helped catch Nazir, then had a clean slate, but then got framed for an actual successful attack that he actually didn't commit.

I'm also not clear on how Nazir planned this out. I'm guessing this was his revised plan after Brody foiled the military homecoming plot, but I just don't get how he could have lined everything up. He's able to kidnap Carrie through sheer coincidence, then convince Brody to kill Walden (magically with no inquiry whatsoever), then know the CIA would have a memorial, then know Brody would go to it... I can't get over this part though, even though it doesn't really add up.

*Quinn and Estes:* I was fine with Quinn not going through the with shot--I thought it was the first reasonable thing anyone's done on this show in a long time, lol. I get the idea that he's basically a merc and those guys follow orders, but I don't think that was it with him. He's still an agent and he has a convenience, and he knew killing Brody was just Estes covering his ass, not to protect national security. Estes was a dirt bag.

I'll have to see where all this stuff lands next year. I was kind of over the show going into this season but they turned it around when Saul found that memory card so early in the season, and everything that followed. I wasn't expecting that and it got me excited for the show again. But the whole Carrie/Brody thing is almost too much to look past, as well as the way the finale unfolded (again, depending on where they go with it).

We shall see...


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## stellie93 (Feb 25, 2006)

getreal said:


> I loved Saul's line to Carrie: "You're the smartest and the dumbest f-ing person I've ever known." Those were his last words to her before the explosion where he thought she had died.
> 
> And I loved that last scene with Saul saying the prayer amongst the impromptu morgue as Carrie's voice calls to him faintly as a ghost as he continues his prayer, then louder until he turns to see her, alive. Patinkin's acting in that final scene was amazing. He said so much with just his look of tortured relief.
> 
> I can't wait for next season. And if these threads turn into the inevitable moaning and complaining about how awful the show is, then I will just avoid the forum in order to fully enjoy the show on my own.


:up:



Gerryex said:


> BUT its still orders of magnitude better than most of the other shows out there and I DO look forward to the next season!!
> 
> Gerry


:up:

I really love this show--even the Carrie and Brody parts. I was amazed at the hate here since I thought the hour just flew by. What other show has even 1 actor as good as Saul, Carrie, or Brody?


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## Archangel00 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> Or "Beat my suspension of disbelief into unconsciousness and lock it in the cellar."
> 
> I'm not even sure it's a good show any more. I think it's a bad show with sensational acting. Can you imagine what this season would have been like with ordinary actors? At least I have almost a year to decide if that acting makes it worth watching.


Rob, you score a bullseye every time you have something to say about the more recent sad state of affairs concerning this show.



stellie93 said:


> I really love this show--even the Carrie and Brody parts. I was amazed at the hate here since I thought the hour just flew by. What other show has even 1 actor as good as Saul, Carrie, or Brody?


Fringe, to name not only 1 but an equal 3...(plus Astrid makes it 4)
While we're at it Boss too..
Hell, let's make it a trifecta, Game of Thrones...

Please, let's not so quickly forget Andy Whitfield as well. (Spartacus: Blood and Sand)
(Can't mention that show now, without also naming Batiatus/John Hannah too.)


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

Bob Coxner said:


> No one bothers to check cars for bombs when they enter CIA headquarters? That's standard procedure at every sensitive building in DC. (The guy with the mirror on a pole that he sticks under the car)


To be fair that only helps if you stick a car-bomb under the car. If you take the time to break in and pack under the rear seat with explosives, or swap out the spare tire for a bomb a quick mirror check isn't going to do any good.

I tend to doubt the explosives got planted after Brody entered the compound because: first - you'd have to sneak them in in some other vehicle, and second - moving packages from one car to another in the CIA parking lot is more likely to attract more attention than simply planting the explosives outside of security. What's the major downside from the terrorists perspective in the unlikely event Brody gets cause trying to smuggle explosives in; they can release the tape anyway. (And depending on how they're triggered possibly take out Brody and the guard gate anyway)

But yeah, overall this episode bothered me; from the burial at sea in the museum battleship, to simply driving away from the explosion, to teleporting to the Canadian border and back; I'm far less interested in this show than I was at the end of season 1.


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## bob190 (Dec 19, 2012)

Jonathan_S said:


> to teleporting to the Canadian border and back; I'm far less interested in this show than I was at the end of season 1.


It's not 24, events aren't happening in real time...

Earlier in the episode, someone told Saul it would take a few days to get the bodies out of the building. Since in the final scene, Saul was in a makeshift morgue with the bodies, it was pretty obvious a few days had passed when Carrie showed up.


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## Jonathan_S (Oct 23, 2001)

bob190 said:


> It's not 24, events aren't happening in real time...
> 
> Earlier in the episode, someone told Saul it would take a few days to get the bodies out of the building. Since in the final scene, Saul was in a makeshift morgue with the bodies, it was pretty obvious a few days had passed when Carrie showed up.


Maybe it was the fact that the makeshift morge looked like they'd borrowed the next door gym that made it seem so soon. I _assumed_ (possibly incorrectly) that that was very temporary body staging are before transporting to a proper (cooled) storage. And that with that many bodies still unmoved that it must be pretty early in the search; which means that days couldn't have passed.

Now possibly that's not what they wanted to convey, but several posters here seem to have gotten that same impression of minimal elapsed time between the explosion and Carrie's return. (Could be it's just poorly conveyed rather than an actual plot hole; but it came off as problematic for whatever reason)


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## Hank (May 31, 2000)

It's entirely feasible that since they drove to the border that night (10 hours), Carrie could have driven back the following day in time to get to the morgue during daylight hours (the following day). Also add in the time to make the fake ids (an hour or two), she still could have made it back the following day to see Saul in the gym.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 1, 2004)

An interview with the Homeland showrunner, defending the show: http://www.grantland.com/blog/holly...nnel-homelands-showrunner-responds-to-critics


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

astrohip said:


> Alan Sepinwall's take on the same interview...
> 
> http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-wa...future-sauls-loyalties-and-more-from-season-2
> 
> ...


That quote makes it clear that the showrunners are too involved in the story to see how it's actually been presented to the viewing audience. By letting Brody live past this episode, they've already let the tail wag the dog, since the story of Brody has definitely run its course. The relationship between Brody and Carrie isn't a defining pillar of the show - it's an embarassment.


DreadPirateRob said:


> You misunderstand me. My point was that:
> 
> 1) Estes is the one that wanted Brody dead, partly because Brody knew about his involvement with the drone strike.
> 
> ...


I got the sense that Dar Adal was formerly on the Ops side of the CIA, but that now he was no longer officially affiliated with the CIA at all and that his team, including Quinn, was a black ops team completely off the books.


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## DeDondeEs (Feb 20, 2004)

For some reason I keep going back to an episode early in the season where Brody is transporting the tailor and he gets the flat tire, and discovers that the jack was missing. Why did that go out of their way to show that? And all of the sudden in this season he was driving that Suburban, where did it come from? My theory is that the explosives were in vehicle for a long time (from the vest?) and perhaps the jack was to show that someone had messed with the vehicle?

As to who moved the vehicle. What about that agent they at first suspected of moving Nazzir out of his hiding place?


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## DevdogAZ (Apr 16, 2003)

Listened to a podcast interview with showrunners Alex Gansa (Hollywood Prospectus available at Grantland.com). Couple thoughts: 

1. He said that a properly-medicated Carrie as we saw this year probably lost some of the instincts that made her such a good analyst in the past. 

2. He didn't specifically say how the bomb got in the car, but he did mention that Brody's car sat on the side of the road for many hours when Brody was taken away in the helicopter.


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

netringer said:


> Now we can have Dana's angst as she thinks her father killed her boyfriend. She still could break down with what she knows, maybe attempt suicide.


Fingers crossed!


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## busyba (Feb 5, 2003)

netringer said:


> Sure. Carrie will prove to Saul that Brody didn't have anything to do with the car bomb, ....ummm becuase she was with him looking to get some nookie in Saul's office so they can clear his name...except for that A MEMBER OF CONGRESS attempted a plot to blow up the Vice-President of the United States and SecDef with a suicide vest - complete with video confession, murdered Tom Walker on Nazir's order, caused the death of the tailor bomb maker while attempting to save him, and paid a key role in the murder of the Vice-President, Brody is CLEAN!


Doesn't he have an immunity agreement covering all those acts?

The only thing he can still be held responsible for is the CIA bombing (and the VP assassination of course, but no one suspects him of that).


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## MikeAndrews (Jan 17, 2002)

busyba said:


> Doesn't he have an immunity agreement covering all those acts?
> 
> The only thing he can still be held responsible for is the CIA bombing (and the VP assassination of course, but no one suspects him of that).


Yeah, sure. You think the POTUS is going to hold a press conference saying, "A deal is a deal?" All bets are off. Congress and the public are going to demand blood.


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## SocratesJohnson (Sep 14, 2005)

Rob Helmerichs said:


> I'm not even sure it's a good show any more. I think it's a bad show with sensational acting. Can you imagine what this season would have been like with ordinary actors?


24?


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## ElJay (Apr 6, 2005)

I'm a bit annoyed that the entire hit and run thing with the VP's kid turned out to be a total waste of time. It went nowhere other than being some sort of worthless preaching against how the rich and powerful inhabit the world differently than the rest of us. The kid and his family are dead and the person he hit is dead.


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## tiams (Apr 19, 2004)

ElJay said:


> I'm a bit annoyed that the entire hit and run thing with the VP's kid turned out to be a total waste of time. It went nowhere other than being some sort of worthless preaching against how the rich and powerful inhabit the world differently than the rest of us. The kid and his family are dead and the person he hit is dead.


You are forgetting the many ways the hit and run moved the plot along. For one thing, it led Brody to his melt down and to him telling the reporter he was done with Nazir and everything spiraling from there. It led to Dana seeing him with Carrie and subsequently telling Jessica that they were together. The payoff gave Brody even more desire to kill the VP. Etc.


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## danterner (Mar 4, 2005)

I have just now finished watching Homeland, start to finish over the course of about a month. Overall, I found it very entertaining and I'm still on board for next season. Some thoughts:

It bothered me throughout that whenever Jessica spoke to Brody, she called him "Brody." Who calls their spouse by their last name? I've never met _anyone_ that does that.

Regarding Saul as the mole; I just don't see it, based on the way his character has been portrayed and based upon the things he has done. It would take some very fine writing to convince me otherwise. There have, though, been moments when I have had some suspicions - like his seemingly intentional failing of the first lie detector test, in season one. And while his saying the mourner's kaddish for the dead victims of the Langley blast at the end of this season seemed entirely in character, it struck an odd note when he said the mourner's kaddish the first time, for the dead terrorist (the one Brody ostensibly slipped a razor blade to, last season). Also, did anyone else catch that in the first season episode where Saul was on the road trip with Eileen (terrorist lady), and they pitstopped at his old schul, there was a brief shot of them standing around and you could see Saul twiddling his fingers, hand at his side, very much the same way that Brody had in the first episodes when they were trying to figure out what that might mean? It was not the focus of the shot the way it was composed, and nothing was ever made of it so I went on to assume it was just a red herring. Finally, it seems there's a relatively short list of people who both had possession of the Brody confession video and who survived the blast. Saul is one of those people. In my opinion, none of that adds up in a way that tips the scale in favor of him being a mole. But it's all interesting to note.


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## Rob Helmerichs (Oct 17, 2000)

danterner said:


> It bothered me throughout that whenever Jessica spoke to Brody, she called him "Brody." Who calls their spouse by their last name? I've never met _anyone_ that does that.


In previous threads, it's been noted that this is not unheard of in the military.


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## jeff92k7 (Jan 18, 2006)

danterner said:


> I have just now finished watching Homeland, start to finish over the course of about a month.


I did too. Just finished it a couple days ago. Great so far, but I agree that the second season wasn't as good as the first. The Carrie Brody thing is too much.



danterner said:


> Regarding Saul as the mole; I just don't see it, based on the way his character has been portrayed and based upon the things he has done. It would take some very fine writing to convince me otherwise. There have, though, been moments when I have had some suspicions - like his seemingly intentional failing of the first lie detector test, in season one.


I was about to post the very same thing. I would not at all be surprised if Saul was the mole, but the sticking point for me is his relationship with Carrie. They would have to write it in that he was the mole for anything that wouldn't affect Carrie. He liked her more than the terrorists and would do anything except what might hurt Carrie. IDK...I guess the writers could take it either way. Still, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence suggesting that he is the mole, or at least, not perfectly clean.

Something that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned in this thread is how the most recent meeting between Nazir and Brody factors in. We saw from the CIA debriefing that Brody wasn't being completely honest about it. That was consistent with everything Brody has done.... He has told the CIA most of the plan, but always held something back. Second, he nodded to Carrie during the ceremony as if to say "we need to leave now". I thought that was suspicious BEFORE the whole bomb thing. Once the bomb went off, it suddenly became clear why he wanted to leave the ceremony then. Whether the writers for season 3 come back and say he knew about the bombing beforehand or not, I don't really know, but I also took the whole "looking out the window and being surprised that his SUV was moved" as being conveniently forced... Almost like he said that only for Carrie so he would have a way to explain away any suspicion on him. In other words, he was playing on her emotions to get himself out of trouble.

I'm eager for season 3, but I do hope they put the Carrie/Brody relationship behind them. I like it better when Carrie knows he's bad, but just can't prove it yet.


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