# Tivo's Expensive 0870 CS Number - Sign The www.10downingstreet.gov.uk Petition



## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

I expect that many of you here will object to Sky using an 0870 number for the customer service centre they run on behalf of Tivo in the United Kingdom.

Those of you who do object to paying £4.23 per hour with BT or up to £6.00 per hour with some telecoms providers to make a call that would be part of your fixed price monthly calling plan such as BT Option 3 if it started with 01/02 and is in fact a covert premium rate number may like to consider signing the petition against all 084/7 numbers that is currently running on the 10 Downing Street website.

See http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/saynoto0870/


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

And while you're there, why not sign the petition against road pricing and/or the petition to abolish inheritance tax at the same time :up:

Edit: The petition against road pricing is nearly up to a million now and currently adding signatures at about 5 per second  Just refresh the main page a few times to see those numbers piling up....


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Or the many petitions against the BBC/BBC Licence Fee/BBC Tax, etc.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Maybe we should petition Tony Blair to force TiVo to return to the UK...?

That _would be _a legacy worth having


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

>petition against road pricing

There you go - we've broke it. I get a timeout on that address because it's got too much traffic.

Hang on - there's a lady on deal or no deal who's asking the audience to chant 'blue... blue... blue...' to ensure *she* gets what she wants.

EDIT: Petition site back, but slow. Lady lost her last red. We're all doomed...


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## ColinYounger (Aug 9, 2006)

> too much traffic


Yes, I recognise the irony there.


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## frogster (Jan 4, 2006)

I think that the important thing here is that people are being *obliged* to call 0870 and other even more expensive premium rate numbers when they just want support for a product or service that they have already paid for and which isn't working properly. Let's face it: if the product or service was really good then no one would ever need to ring the premium number at all. This is a good argument for all customer service lines to be made free of charge by law.

Why should you have to pay a fee (disguised as a phone bill) to Sky just to upgrade your Sky package, or a fee to your some other service provider to complain about the amount they have overcharged you this month? They should pay *you!*


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

frogster said:


> I think that the important thing here is that people are being *obliged* to call 0870 and other even more expensive premium rate numbers when they just want support for a product or service that they have already paid for and which isn't working properly. Let's face it: if the product or service was really good then no one would ever need to ring the premium number at all. This is a good argument for all customer service lines to be made free of charge by law.


Or at the very least it should only be a normal priced non premium rate 01/02 call included in fixed price calling plans from numerous companies including BT. Also the biggest disgrace is that the useless telecoms regulator has allowed these numbers to go on being called local rate and national rate long after they were not any such thing without any fear of sanction being imposed on the cynical organisations involved. Although this has now been banned by the ASA in advertising material companies can still get away with it in information leaflets, letters and numerous other communications without fear of any penalty. Also websites are incredibly not covered by the ASA.

Companies should have to answer their customer service line on an 01/02 number and within five minutes or face some form of fine or penalty for wasting millions of manhours of what could have been productive time each year with a telephone clamped to people's ears.


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## PaulWilkinsUK (Mar 20, 2006)

How bout putting up a petition forcing Tony Blair to quit the post of Prime Minister? (Oh if only!)


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

PaulWilkinsUK said:


> How bout putting up a petition forcing Tony Blair to quit the post of Prime Minister? (Oh if only!)


Why don't you start one and promote it on all the web forums you patronise to get it on the front page after which it would then grow like crazy. Its only a few clicks on the site to do so, unless you think they would delete a petition on this subject. 

I would start one myself on this topic except that I have a couple of matters more dear to my heart on which I plan to start a petition there so don't want get distracted about an issue I am only mildly bothered about and I doubt will make much difference to Tony's final plans.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Hey, if you want to increase the costs to TiVo of maintaining a UK service, go right ahead. Me, I think keeping our head down and not making the TiVo accountants identify the UK as a potential cost saving could be a better move.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

This one needs our support; there's only one signature!



> We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Force digital broadcasters to adhere to minimum bitrates for broadcasts.


http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/DTVbitrates/


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Hey, if you want to increase the costs to TiVo of maintaining a UK service, go right ahead. Me, I think keeping our head down and not making the TiVo accountants identify the UK as a potential cost saving could be a better move.


Oh I'm sure it gets reviewed by Tivo's accountants annually anyway. And of course we on this forum have been saving Tivo plenty of money on phone calls by converting more and more Tivo users to collecting their daily download via broadband rather than via the 0800 dialup number.

I think up to now the case for maintaining the UK service has been pretty strong due to (a) a surprisingly high percentage of Uk Tivo users subscribing monthly and so bringing in £1 million or more a year of subscription income and (b) due to a long running possibility that Tivo wanted to relaunch in the UK and so did not want to lose corporate face by pulling the plug on a "Lifetime" service.

However I am concerned that the launch of Sky HD has caused quite a lot of monthly subbed Tivo units to be taken out of service and also desubscribed and while some of these Tivos have been resold on Ebay the majority have probably been consigned to cupboards or lofts to gather dust. Also the heating up of other multichannel pay tv choices in the UK marketplace with things like the launch of BT Vision and with Virgin Media deciding to supply pay tv to every UK single home that wants it using BT Openreach's network in non cabled areas (just announced) may convince Tivo that entering the UK marketplace is too tricky for them.

Leaving all those things aside I make no apology for criticising the use of the 0870 number by Sky for the Tivo customer service line as I'm convinced that Tivo never sees any of that money and instead it just disappears down a large common Sky sinking fund black hole for all of their 0870 numbers and is probably never given any credit at all against the annual cost of maintaining the Tivo support desk contract.


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## sammoj (Jun 22, 2001)

frogster said:


> I think that the important thing here is that people are being *obliged* to call 0870 and other even more expensive premium rate numbers when they just want support for a product or service that they have already paid for and which isn't working properly. Let's face it: if the product or service was really good then no one would ever need to ring the premium number at all. This is a good argument for all customer service lines to be made free of charge by law.
> 
> Why should you have to pay a fee (disguised as a phone bill) to Sky just to upgrade your Sky package, or a fee to your some other service provider to complain about the amount they have overcharged you this month? They should pay *you!*


Don't get me started, £25 calling sky to sort out THEIR mistake on my HD account and they still have messed it up. Can I get the money back, no silence to my emails, faxes and letters.

John


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> This one needs our support; there's only one signature!
> 
> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/DTVbitrates/


I see that it has two signature now. Does that mean you aren't Simon Brown then?  

I'm sure if you give the issue a bit of a puff over at the appropriate place on the www.digitalspy.co.uk discussion forums that it will rapidly pick up a load more signatures.

Actually I think you must be Simon Brown as the only other signatory at present, Stuart Anderton, is of course our very own sanderton.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

sammoj said:


> Don't get me started, £25 calling sky to sort out THEIR mistake on my HD account and they still have messed it up. Can I get the money back, no silence to my emails, faxes and letters.
> 
> John


I find an email to [email protected] usually does the trick and is then flagged for high priority action to the highest level in the customer care escalations department.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> Oh I'm sure it gets reviewed by Tivo's accountants annually anyway. And of course we on this forum have been saving Tivo plenty of money on phone calls by converting more and more Tivo users to collecting their daily download via broadband rather than via the 0800 dialup number.
> 
> I think up to now the case for maintaining the UK service has been pretty strong due to (a) a surprisingly high percentage of Uk Tivo users subscribing monthly and so bringing in £1 million or more a year of subscription income and (b) due to a long running possibility that Tivo wanted to relaunch in the UK and so did not want to lose corporate face by pulling the plug on a "Lifetime" service.


I think it must be purely that leaving Brits high and dry will make it harder for TiVo to enter any foreign market in the future.

Unfortunately with subscriber growth in the US stalled and losses still running at over $30m a year, TiVo ain't expanding anywhere, sadly. TiVo Inc operating cash flow is only $3m a year. If we aren't cash generative, that plug will get pulled.

I think that that £1m revenue is probably about right, but don't forget there are significant costs to put against that, most notable the 0800 number which the guide data is dowenlaoded on, plus the fee to Tribune and presumably some amount to Sky. Do the back of an envelope sums and there's no profit there any more.



> I'm convinced that Tivo never sees any of that money and instead it just disappears down a large common Sky sinking fund black hole for all of their 0870 numbers and is probably never given any credit at all against the annual cost of maintaining the Tivo support desk contract.


Do you have even the tiniest bit of evidence for that? What has convinced you of it?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Do you have even the tiniest bit of evidence for that? What has convinced you of it?


Do you have even the tiniest shred of evidence the other way then?

I would think it is quite likely that Tivo don't any credit on their account for the volume of these calls because of the great lie that 0870 is "only the National Rate sir" that is still widely peddled despite numerous adjudications from the Advertising Standards Authority in the last 18 months that 0870 is definitely a form of revenue share premium rate number for which call costs must be specifically made clear.

The Americans not having such a covert premium rate system back home are unlikely to have realised there is a revenue stream in taking these calls and so probably not factored this in their negotiations with Sky on the cost of the contract.

The fact that Tivo use an 0800 number to reach their own servers for data surely says that the idea for the use of an 0870 number for customer service came from Sky and not from Tivo. Such an idea is distinctly alien to the way the Americans deal with the public back home.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Ah, so your evidence is you think Americans are stupid and Sky would naturally attempt to defraud them. Right.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Ah, so your evidence is you think Americans are stupid and Sky would naturally attempt to defraud them. Right.


I didn't ever say Tivo were stupid. I just said that the fact that 0870 calls are in fact a class of covert premium rate calls is something most people are still unaware of. And the UK run on contract for Tivo is very small beer to them in the great scheme of things that they will hardly go through with a fine tooth comb. Also if Tivo were more cost conscious then they would have severed the contract with Sky and run the customer support directly in the USA. An 0870 number can easily support the costs of call forwarding via Voip to a destination in the United States.

As to Sky naturally attempting to defraud people well yes that would be an assumption I would make about that company in view of their longstanding methods of doing business, including when they stabbed Tivo in the back by launching their own inferior but more heavily marketed model of PVR.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I didn't ever say Tivo were stupid. I just said that the fact that 0870 calls are in fact a class of covert premium rate calls is something most people are still unaware of. And the UK run on contract for Tivo is very small beer to them in the great scheme of things that they will hardly go through with a fine tooth comb.


Eh? Companies go through all contracts with a fine toothed comb; especially public ones like TiVo. You have an odd way of thinking about how comapnies work.



> Also if Tivo were more cost conscious then they would have severed the contract with Sky and run the customer support directly in the USA. An 0870 number can easily support the costs of call forwarding via Voip to a destination in the United States.


Except for the time difference...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> Eh? Companies go through all contracts with a fine toothed comb; especially public ones like TiVo. You have an odd way of thinking about how comapnies work.
> 
> Except for the time difference...


8 hours behind in California. At this point only having a Tivo help desk from 4pm to midnight UK time or even 4pm to 7am would have been quite acceptable given that this is when most people are actually using their Tivos.


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## smokie (Dec 27, 2002)

Two things.

www.saynoto0870.com is often useful for finding alternative numbers

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/ to save the Red Arrows


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

smokie said:


> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/SaveTheReds/ to save the Red Arrows


Signed it as I love the Red Arrows. Typical of New Labour to try and get rid of any status symbol of traditional England.

However I see the anti 0870 petition has now overtaken this one.


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## algordon (Apr 1, 2004)

Reading the most recent posts on this thread, makes me wonder if I haven't been redirected to some tory forum. I would therefore like to say that I myself am totally in favour of road pricing and also in favour of inheritance tax. I am however no fan of Tony Blair..  

To get back on thread however, does anyone know - as in are they able to prove - that any petition to the government has ever altered policy?

I've always thought petitions seemed rather pointless other than to make signatories feel better.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

algordon said:


> Reading the most recent posts on this thread, makes me wonder if I haven't been redirected to some tory forum. I would therefore like to say that I myself am totally in favour of road pricing and also in favour of inheritance tax. I am however no fan of Tony Blair..
> 
> To get back on thread however, does anyone know - as in are they able to prove - that any petition to the government has ever altered policy?
> 
> I've always thought petitions seemed rather pointless other than to make signatories feel better.


The road tolls one is getting very close to having the potential to change the course of events. Its a pity they set such an early closing date but perhaps that can now be extended.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

Unlikely. They're probably wishing it had ended weeks ago 

The story has even been taken up by the BBC too :up:


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## katman (Jun 4, 2002)

algordon said:


> I myself am totally in favour of road pricing and also in favour of inheritance tax.


Inheritance tax was originally introduced for the government to extract money following the death of WEALTHY people. The threshold has not kept pace with inflation (particularly house price inflation) with the result that many more people are now caught in the net.



> I've always thought petitions seemed rather pointless other than to make signatories feel better.


It may well be the case that very few if any petitions have had any real effect but surely it does inform the petitioned organisation that not everyone agrees with there plan. I suppose it depends on the total number of people who eventually complain but if no petition was ever raised in the first place then the assumption would be that everyone agreed with it.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> The road tolls one is getting very close to having the potential to change the course of events. Its a pity they set such an early closing date but perhaps that can now be extended.


Without wishing to go to off-topic, I do know that there are some motorways in Spain that you have to pay to drive on. You collect a ticket from an automated machine at whichever junction enter on and pay whatever the accumulated charge when you exit. That's it. There's no identifying features on the ticket; no licence number or whatever. Assuming the scheme introduced here is similar, I can't see any privacy issues.

Of course, I don't drive so that makes my opinion void anyway


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Without wishing to go to off-topic, I do know that there are some motorways in Spain that you have to pay to drive on. You collect a ticket from an automated machine at whichever junction enter on and pay whatever the accumulated charge when you exit. That's it. There's no identifying features on the ticket; no licence number or whatever. Assuming the scheme introduced here is similar, I can't see any privacy issues.


No the Orwellian (1984) scheme proposed here is to charge you something for every single road you ever drive on in the UK, even if its a track to a sheep farm in Snowdonia. This is to be achieved by a spy in the cab big brother GPS device that will also be able to drop you in it as soon as you stray over the speed limit, or no doubt in due course will just prevent you travelling above the limit for that road.

So big brother will be able to track you 24 hours a day so woe betide you if you are a single male who just happens to have your car in the area at the wrong time of day when a nasty murder takes place. Since there will now be an exhaustive data dump you can be guaranteed to have your house ransacked at 4am in the morning by the Boys in Blue regardless of whether or not you may previously always have had a clean record with the Police. Big Brother has truly arrived. The next step will be a camera in ever bedroom and living room........................


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

I'm fairly sure you're exaggerating for effect, which is so unlike you


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## algordon (Apr 1, 2004)

cwaring said:


> Of course, I don't drive so that makes my opinion void anyway


Interesting - can I ask have you decided not to drive, or are unable to drive, or prevented by illness from driving? Sorry, I'm insatiably curious about people so don't mean to offend by asking.

Also, re your point about Spain, I've driven a fair bit in France where you also have to pay to use the autoroutes. Is it the same deal?

A long way from Tivo and more specifically 0870 nos but that's what I love about this forum...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> I'm fairly sure you're exaggerating for effect, which is so unlike you


I am not exaggerating.

The proposal is to charge you for every mile you drive on every public road in the UK. via a GPS tracker system. Have you and the rest of the great British Public been asleep while New Labour tries to sneak this through.

They are going to charge less on less popular roads and off peak but you will be charged for every single mile you drive and will be tracked in every mile you drive. So poor or lower middle class people won't be able to afford to drive at all any more or at least only to take the kids to school or down to Tescos once a week.

Haven't people yet taken on board that this government is about as anti Civil Liberties as you can get.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

algordon said:


> Interesting - can I ask have you decided not to drive, or are unable to drive, or prevented by illness from driving? Sorry, I'm insatiably curious about people so don't mean to offend by asking.


See www.carl-waring.co.uk, although Carl doesn't explain there why he gave up paid work. He only tells us how he now spends his time.


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## blindlemon (May 12, 2002)

cwaring said:


> I'm fairly sure you're exaggerating for effect,


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4610877.stm


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Without wishing to go to off-topic, I do know that there are some motorways in Spain that you have to pay to drive on. You collect a ticket from an automated machine at whichever junction enter on and pay whatever the accumulated charge when you exit. That's it. There's no identifying features on the ticket; no licence number or whatever. Assuming the scheme introduced here is similar, I can't see any privacy issues.
> 
> Of course, I don't drive so that makes my opinion void anyway


There's a motorway near Birmingham like that Carl!

Virtually all European countries operate such a system.


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## TCM2007 (Dec 25, 2006)

Pete77 said:


> I am not exaggerating.
> 
> The proposal is to charge you for every mile you drive on every public road in the UK. via a GPS tracker system. Have you and the rest of the great British Public been asleep while New Labour tries to sneak this through.
> 
> ...


I suspect what they will actually propose is to charge only on the basis of certain roads rather than all roads. It's hard to argue with the principle of pay-per-mile, but the GPS tracking has horrible civil liberties implications.

And Pete you forgot the other one - if the sytem knows where you are and how fast you're going it can also nick you for speeding every single time!


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

TCM2007 said:


> I suspect what they will actually propose is to charge only on the basis of certain roads rather than all roads. It's hard to argue with the principle of pay-per-mile, but the GPS tracking has horrible civil liberties implications.
> 
> And Pete you forgot the other one - if the sytem knows where you are and how fast you're going it can also nick you for speeding every single time!


Nope the proposal is for ALL roads, even the D5489 to the Welsh sheep farm at the moment. This is all about discouraging you from driving altogether if you could cycle or walk to the local shop instead. And its also about further by the back door taxation for New Labour. It isn't just about stopping congestion at peak periods.

I mentioned that this would let them track you for speeding in Post 30 in this thread. Again more revenue for New Labour.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

algordon said:


> Interesting - can I ask have you decided not to drive, or are unable to drive, or prevented by illness from driving? Sorry, I'm insatiably curious about people so don't mean to offend by asking.





Pete77 said:


> See www.carl-waring.co.uk, although Carl doesn't explain there why he gave up paid work. He only tells us how he now spends his time.


Not sure where you got the 'gave up paid work' from. As it happens, I lost my job at Foxs; if that's what you're referring to.

Anyway, to answer Al's (aka Mr Nosey) question, it's mainly to do with my inability to pass the test after 4 times of trying. It's all linked to personal medical stuff which I have no wish to go into details about.



> Also, re your point about Spain, I've driven a fair bit in France where you also have to pay to use the autoroutes. Is it the same deal?


Probably.

To the other posters... no I didn't actually realise it was that bad


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

cwaring said:


> Not sure where you got the 'gave up paid work' from. As it happens, I lost my job at Foxs; if that's what you're referring to.


Carl,

I don't wish to pry into your private life but even if your medical condition makes working in an office environment now very difficult for one reason or another I did notice your good English grade and surely these days there is some web or home based kind of work you could get?

Clearly you are not without skills or the ability to retain information and become a knowledge and technical expert and that must be worth something somewhere surely.

Mind you I would agree that the world of paid office work does often seem to be all about conforming to the general social norm and no career gaps and a lot of fairly pointless rules and controls and if one doesn't like all that it is hard to be comfortable with it. Mind you your CV says you are good with time keeping (one of my main weaknesses especially morning time of arrival) and all that stuff so I am still left curious about your situation . You can always PM me if you are more comfortable with that. I promise not to publish in the forum any info sent to me by that means.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

Pete77 said:


> I don't wish to pry into your private life ....


Riiiight, but you're going to anyway, eh 

If you must know, it's all to do with having menegitis (?*) as a very young child and lack of oxygen to the brain for an extended period which I was, apparently, lucky to survive.

I have a letter from a doctor that said that this would seriously impact ony my ability to get and keep a job, though I do have to add that it hasn't stopped me trying.

I might refer potential employers to your post 

*I had it but can't spell it 

It's not a secret, but just not really anyone business 

And that's the last post I will make on the subject.


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

meningitis is the spelling I believe.

OK sorry to hear about your problems but hope you may manage to find profitable paid work again at some point in the future. How about something part time or based at home.

What about you becoming a home based PC repairer and putting a card in the window of the local newsagent or something?


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## DeadKenny (Nov 9, 2002)

Whilst I'd normally agree that an 0870 without geographical alternative is wrong, in the case of TiVo if we complained, they'll likely just pull the line completely. With no new income in the UK I can't see them running the line for next to nothing.

Now if we had a petition to get Tony Blair to force TiVo to release new TiVos in the UK...


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

DeadKenny said:


> Whilst I'd normally agree that an 0870 without geographical alternative is wrong, in the case of TiVo if we complained, they'll likely just pull the line completely. With no new income in the UK I can't see them running the line for next to nothing.
> 
> Now if we had a petition to get Tony Blair to force TiVo to release new TiVos in the UK...


I know we won't persuade Sky to change it for so long as they have the contract for customer support, although no doubt they will be changing to another number starting either 0871 or 0844 on 1st Feb 2008 when 0870 becomes charged at 01/02 prices. However the point of my post was that people who had to call the Tivo 0870 number might well still feel motivated to sign the Downing Street anti 0870 petition.


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## algordon (Apr 1, 2004)

cwaring said:


> It's not a secret, but just not really anyone business
> 
> And that's the last post I will make on the subject.


I'm really sorry if my post resulted in Carl disclosing anything he now wishes he hadn't. I've been there myself...

Anyway, I'd just like to echo Pete77's comments.

Now back to road pricing, civil liberties, inheritance tax - and no, wait, isn't this a Tivo forum?


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## Pete77 (Aug 1, 2006)

algordon said:


> no, wait, isn't this a Tivo forum?


All subjects that can be recorded on a Tivo so fair game for discussion in my view.


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## cwaring (Feb 12, 2002)

algordon said:


> I'm really sorry if my post resulted in Carl disclosing anything he now wishes he hadn't. I've been there myself...


Don't worry too much about it. I'm over it


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