# I don't like my HR20 - Update. Now I HATE it



## justapixel

Yes, I was an early adopter of TiVo, getting my first in 2000. And, of course, I mod this forum because of my love for TiVo. So, you'd think I'd be prejudiced, but my philosophy is if it works, it's fine. I like new stuff and change brands all the time.

I've had Direct TV for years, because in my area, Comcast sucks and is expensive and those are my choices. (Well, along with Dish - is that a valid choice? Not according to my brother-in-law.)

When I bought my HDTV, I had a choice...stay with Direct TV and switch to the HR20, or go with Comcast and stay with TiVo.

I chose the former.

I'm sorry TiVo.

The HR20 has been problematic. I don't believe I've watched one show that hasn't had some sort of noise or audio drop. It has had two failures that caused me to have to reboot, reacquire satellite data, reset up. It's missed recordings, something my trusty TiVo never did in 8 years.

I've had it a month.

I'm locked into a two-year contract now - all I can do is hope they fix the damn thing and are working on all the failures and problems.

I realize some people here haven't had these problems - or maybe they haven't had the long, flawless experience with TiVo that I have had so don't realize this isn't normal for DVR owners. Maybe they got a better box - maybe their DVR likes them better and won't break up on them. YMMV, but I don't care for the HR20 and I regret my decision.

Just thought you should know.

(I still have two dual tuner D*TiVos running strong and one I use now just as a backup for the HR20. At least I won't miss a show, even if I don't see it in HD.)


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## shibby191

If you stop over to DBSTalk and detail your problems there are plenty of people there that will quickly troubleshoot your issues. Almost sounds like you might have a hardware problem and can just get a replacement from DirecTV.

As for reliability...I have had a Tivo of some sort since 2000 and had the first DirecTivo when it still just had one tuner. I've also had an HR20 since first available in Sept 2006 (now have 2 of them) and I have never missed a recording on either one that wasn't due to guide data problems. I've also missed a few recordings on Tivo's over the years due to the same guide data issues (and a bad hard drive in my T-60). Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I've had Tivo for 8 years and DVR+ for going on 2 and find both reliable.


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## TonyD79

I know you don't like telling people where they should post but you really should go to dbstalk to get help. You won't get anywhere near the level of help on the HR20 here that you will there. 

Unless all you are looking for is a bunch of tivo folks to commiserate with you. You will get a lot of that.


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## gio1269

Yep, go tom dbstalk and ask around. You MIGHT just have a bad unit. My HR20 has been flawless except for an optical port going out. It's never missed a recording, rebooted on it's own, nothing. The HR20 that I received 2 days ago to replace my HR10 was basically DOA. 
My HR20 has been flawless for 8 months. In a years time, my HR10 crapped out 4 times and now it's 5th and final death. 

Now my D* SD Tivo was awesome for 5 yrs and still going smooth at a friends place.

Again complaining about a HR20 here will get you NO WHERE and just start more flame wars...

Good Luck. Remember it's not Tivo, but a very fine and capable DVR that some of us Tivo users actually prefer.

RS4 nailed it why Tivo is so popular. It's GUI is very, very simple and easy to use. The HR20 does feel more computer/industrial like. I think it's kinda kiddy, but each his own.


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## OmarG

I've enjoyed my time with the HR10-250, but I would never call it a perfect machine.

It has missed recordings, it has rebooted on occasion without warning and I had to have one replaced completely for a failed hard drive, losing all my programs and season passes.

I love the interface, but the TiVo box had its share or problems, so much so that I never bothered to upgrade to 6.x after hearing all the issues people were having with audio dropouts and other bugs. 

Maybe the HR20/21 will be less reliable, but the HR10 gave me some problems, too.


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## Jim Abbett

I like the HR20 but can't stand the remote!!!


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## shaun-ohio

i have had mine since sept 2006 also release date, havent had the problems with them like alot of folks have had


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## TonyTheTiger

Jim Abbett said:


> I like the HR20 but can't stand the remote!!!


One word - Harmony!


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## rickmeoff

ive had mine for about a year or so iirc. it still misses recordings every now and then, or simply records something, shows it as being there and then when we go to watch it, it isnt, lol.

it also requires the occasional reboot.

i didnt like the gui when we first got it (in fact, my wife and kids absolutely hate it still), but ive gotten used to it and dont mind it at all now.

i think the remote on the thing stinks (and getting the harmony doesnt make sense for our setup - and we shouldnt have to go out and buy a remote imo!), miss the dual live buffers (and think that the workaround is a bunch of baloney and defeats the whole purpose of having them), and dont like the pig. dtv needs to have a way to turn pig off, for those of us that dont care for it.

but its so much better than it used to be. and that, together with all the new hd channels...........plus the fact that we no longer have a choice (unless we go to cable) makes it all a moot point.


id prefer tivo, but its all we got, and kinda grows on ya, lol.


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## tfederov

TonyTheTiger said:


> One word - Harmony!


Harmony peanut remote = smooth transition for the rest of my family.


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## phox_mulder

The main thing that bugs me is the record history, or lack thereof.

It just decides to not record something, and the only explanation is "program suddenly became unavailable", huh?

It also gives this same lame reason when it's a re-airing of a show I already recorded.

In the same vein, when everything indicates a show was recorded just fine, but when you go to watch it you get a second of pixelization and then the "keep or delete".
Where's my show? Why are you telling me it's all there when it isn't?
I could have caught a repeat if you would have told me there was a problem and it didn't record,
TiVo tells you it's a partial recording when the whole program isn't there.

I got used to the interface,
I got used to the single live buffer,
I got used to the PIP,
I got used to 30 second slip,
but I can't get used to it missing my recordings and not telling me why.


phox


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## tgr131

Anne,

I do hope you'll stop by dbstalk, and see if anyone has suggestions.

I've never missed a recording, but I have experienced audio dropouts. Mine occurred on OTA recordings, and when I hooked the antenna to my HTPC, I still get the dropouts, so it's not the HR20.

I miss a lot of Tivo's feature, but the HR20 was a heckuva lot better than the SA8300 that TWC was trying to foist on me, and my TWC is using SDV, so the S3 really wasn't an option for me.

David


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## daperlman

The hardware is cheap garbage... and apparently the QA is shabby...but once everything is working it is pretty sweet. 
Sorry you are having issues... I went through 4 before I got one working correctly.


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## JimSpence

Anne, which model HR2x do you have? The latest national release of the software for the HR20s is rolling out now. It changes a few things, makes stability fixes etc. This info is over on DBSTalk. It now allows a 30s skip instead of the original 30s slip. BTW, my HR10-100s has given me no rpoblems other than one spontaneous reboot a couple of months ago. But, then I've only had this unit since early October.


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## coachO

Justapixel, I dont like mine either and it is carthartic to say so here. I have kept the HR10-250 which lessens the frustration but I know its time may be limited.

Just today I got the updated software and they moved the todo button so it no longer works on my Harmony, another reason to dislike the hr20. They did add the 30 sec skip which eliminates one frustration but the time bar at the bottom is absent.

I really cant wait until we have a better option; maybe Apple needs to make a DVR?


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## shibby191

coachO said:


> Just today I got the updated software and they moved the todo button so it no longer works on my Harmony, another reason to dislike the hr20.


Why is that a reason to dislike the HR20? Because you have a *custom* macro programmed for the ToDo list? All you have to do is reprogram your macro. 

Tivo reordered their menu's back in the early days as well. I remember more then once having to reprogram my MX-500 because of a Tivo menu change.

Anyway...


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## MikeekiM

Hi Anne... Based on your OP, you are very much like me... I love to tinker with new gadgets (and yes, that includes new DVR interfaces  )...

Get this problem fixed... It is either something that can be fixed with help from the folks at DBSTalk (which I know has been suggested to death here...but they are right...) Or it is a defective unit...

Count me in as one who has had my HR20 for about a year and actually really loves both the HR20, as well as my DirecTiVos... In fact, in many cases, I prefer my HR20 over my DirecTiVos...

DirecTV has really been good about taking user feedback and managing a priority list of new features and requested changes to the UI behavior... They come out with regular software releases... The HR20 I have now is very different from the HR20 I had just 1 year ago (in a good way)...

And I was also a very LOUD advocate of TiVo over any-other-DVR to my friends and family in the past...and in the first few months of owning my HR20... But you know, I have outgrown that opinion now... I love them both! 

All that said, I go back to my first paragraph...I love trying out new things and wish that I had the option of trying out FIOS...everyone has such great things to report about it! But for now, I am happy with my situation...

EDIT: FYI - Just out of curiosity, I went over to the Comcast board (here on TCF), and there are just as many people complaining about their experience... as well as people who are completely happy...


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## Scooter

I wonder if Ann is yet another victim of DIRECTV sending out a broken "refurbished" HR20.


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## daperlman

My Mother just got an HR21 and HR20. 
Not only did the installer not hook them up correctly. He only ran 1 line to one of them (with no b-band convertor) and disabled her televisions upstairs by cutting the lines and leaving those connected to nothing (pretty much what they did with my OTA antenna). They are unbelievable.


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## MikeekiM

daperlman said:


> My Mother just got an HR21 and HR20.
> Not only did the installer not hook them up correctly. He only ran 1 line to one of them (with no b-band convertor) and disabled her televisions upstairs by cutting the lines and leaving those connected to nothing (pretty much what they did with my OTA antenna). They are unbelievable.


My buddy got an SD DVR hooked up a few months ago... they only ran and hooked up one RG6 to the back... He was trying to figure out why he couldn't watch a program while recording another... He had to schedule another visit to have the other tuner hooked up! Incredible...


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## coachO

I have to admit that my dislike of the HR20 is subsiding. With the new CE, it includes the 30 second skip which eliminates a major irritation. Now if they just included dual channels buffers we would have a fully functional DVR. 

Shibby: To get to the new TODO screen it requires 6 selections and my Harmony macro only allows 5.


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## newsposter

what's all the todo about the todo? while i hate that they took it off the yellow button, i find i press menu/manage/todo (i think, at work now and thats what i remember)

so how are you getting 6 buttons?


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## MikeekiM

newsposter said:


> what's all the todo about the todo? while i hate that they took it off the yellow button, i find i press menu/manage/todo (i think, at work now and thats what i remember)
> 
> so how are you getting 6 buttons?


I agree with you...it is not that hard... But I think I do understand where the 6 button presses come from... While I don't have my DVR in front of me to confirm, I think he is counting the down-direction cursor clicks required to get to the "manage" menu selection from the main menu... That's my guess anyway...


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## Texceo

TonyTheTiger said:


> One word - Harmony!


A better word PRONTO!


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## Jebberwocky!

why would a downgrade in his remote help?


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## rickmeoff

Jebberwocky! said:


> why would a downgrade in his remore help?


i guess that all depends on what a 'remore' is?


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## Jebberwocky!

rickmeoff said:


> i guess that all depends on what a 'remore' is?


the key word was downgrade


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## rickmeoff

Jebberwocky! said:


> the key word was downgrade


ah, gotcha.

the downgrade would make him feel 'remoreful.'


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## Jebberwocky!

rickmeoff said:


> ah, gotcha.
> 
> the downgrade would make him feel 'remoreful.'


the is an outside or ________ possibility you may be right

having trouble thinking of the right word here

think it starts with an R


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## justapixel

Here is an update.

Today, I lost audio. I can see my picture fine, sound works through the TV, through the Wii, through my D*TiVo. But, no sound through the HR20.

I call tech support - it's a "known issue." They are going to "escalate" the problem and send somebody out February 7th to fix it. 

This is the third time I have had to call tech support on this POC and it's been under two months. Oh, and they still can't get my bill right.

They are going to let me out of the two year contract. Tomorrow, I'll call comcast and see what they can offer me.

But, here's the thing. I've wanted HDTV for YEARS, and now I can't see it in hi def. (Okay, I can with rabbit ears but I can't pause, etc.)

I cannot believe they put something this sucky in people's homes and expect them to pay for it.

So, if I call comcast, what can I ask for? I obviously am going to buy TiVo. Right now I have six tuners - how will I get that with TiVo these days?

(I actually only need five)

If anybody knows a workaround for the sound problem, can you let me know?


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## deezel629

It may just be the HDMI port. You may be able to hear sound if you hook it up through component(red,blue,green) with red and white audio cables for sound. You lose a little picture quality this way though.

Sorry to hear about your problems. My HR20 has been flawless for going on 8 months now. :crossesfingers:


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## terpfan1980

See comments/suggestions above about trying to get sound through other ports.

Personally I don't use HDMI (my TV doesn't have an HDMI port on it), so I'm left to use Component cables for video and the Left/Right audio out that went with same. I don't have (that I know of) any problems with the audio coming through my HR20 that way, or at least nothing like the problem described by JAP above.

(I have seen occassionally audio syncing issues, where the sounds are not synced with the moving lips of the people on the screen... That too is somewhat a known issue and has been improving over time.)

Still wish you the best of luck in the TV watching JAP. If not via DirecTV, then by whatever provider you wind up with. Hopefully you'll get a nice DVR (TiVo, cable company, or DirecTV) that will work nicely for your HDTV watching desires.


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## justapixel

My TV has four HDMI ports and I've tried them all. Nothing changes.

I'll try the component cables, I am pretty sure I have a spare. But, losing picture quality isn't why I bought the TV I did.

My advice to long-term TiVo owners - don't switch. 

Sigh.

Thanks for the suggestions!


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## justapixel

deezel629 said:


> It may just be the HDMI port. You may be able to hear sound if you hook it up through component(red,blue,green) with red and white audio cables for sound. You lose a little picture quality this way though.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your problems. My HR20 has been flawless for going on 8 months now. :crossesfingers:


That worked deezel, thanks. At least we can watch the SuperBowl. The picture quality is better than SD anyway.

But, I'm still PO'd that Direct TV thinks this DVR is ready for prime time.

(By the way, I posted this on DBS Talk and got my answer here. :up: )


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## eddyj

Ann, you may be able to use HDMI for the picture, and the other outputs for the audio. That way you get the best picture.


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## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> I cannot believe they put something this sucky in people's homes and expect them to pay for it.


Shouldn't that be - 'I can't believe I got unlucky and either had a bad install or got a bad unit'?

The majority of people have had no problems at all (both of my HR20 work perfectly). For every complaint about the HR2X, there is one about Tivo. You of all people should know that. The bottom line is some people are going to have problems no matter what unit they have. So making a comment like...



justapixel said:


> My advice to long-term TiVo owners - don't switch.


is a bit extreme. Of course if someone had a problem with their Tivo and suggested people stay away from it, they would get flamed. <shrug>


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## AVPhan

eddyj said:


> Ann, you may be able to use HDMI for the picture, and the other outputs for the audio. That way you get the best picture.


Wrong....... No differences between HDMI and Component that regular eyes can see.


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## eddyj

AVPhan said:


> Wrong....... No differences between HDMI and Component that regular eyes can see.


I thought she was talking composite, not component, for the video. Teach me to post in the middle of the night.


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## Mark Lopez

AVPhan said:


> Wrong....... No differences between HDMI and Component that regular eyes can see.


Except for the people using Monster cables which will improve any picture.


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## AVPhan

Mark Lopez said:


> Except for the people using Monster cables which will improve any picture.


Another wrong perception........... There is nothing difference between hundred of dollars "Monsters" vs. few bucks cables...... that regular eyes can see.


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## eddyj

Hence the  in his post.


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## Redux

justapixel said:


> I mod this forum because of my love for TiVo
> 
> When I bought my HDTV, I had a choice...stay with Direct TV and switch to the HR20, or go with Comcast and stay with TiVo.
> 
> I chose the former.
> 
> I'm sorry TiVo.
> 
> The HR20 has been problematic. I don't believe I've watched one show that hasn't had some sort of noise or audio drop. It has had two failures that caused me to have to reboot, reacquire satellite data, reset up. It's missed recordings, something my trusty TiVo never did in 8 years.


I was banned from Tivo Community Forum for my strong positive feelings about Tivo, so I will be careful here. I do not question that all of the anti-Tivo HR20/21 supporters here are potential Nobel Prize winners, and not a single one of them has any connection to DirecTV that might taint their posts here.

That having been said ...

Most of my local Tivo community who got suckered into the DirecTV HR20 and, especially, the HR21, have paid the DirecTV extortion and escaped from the contract. A few stuck, and I look in occasionally. It is not a pretty picture.

Comcast can be a bitter pill to swallow. Others are better but I can't claim re-hooking up to Cable is a love-fest. But almost all who jettisoned DirecTV and went to Cable with the Tivo series 3 and HD are very happy. Those nearby who were able to get FIOS for their Tivos are ecstatic. I've asked to be adopted but they can only tolerate me in very small doses.

Cable companies are fighting/mismanaging cable cards and that can be an initial Tivo s3/HD setup problem occasionally. Prognosis is better.

MANY of my constituency have chosen a combination of OTA HiDef (OTA is the _best_ HiDef available anywhere, ironically), plus a "lifeline" Cable subscription, and a usually very low-priced digital Cable tier; all of this piped through the Tivo s3 or Tivo HD. Supplemented with Netflix and Redbox for recent releases, high quality though not HiDef. This is an extremely good mix in terms of dollar value; Sports (ESPN and sports channels) being the major gap.

I hate to say this, because I have a fondness for Tivo, but even the newer DISH dvrs and some of the Cable company Tivo knockoffs are not all that bad, certainly better than the DirecTV HR20/21. But with FIOS (maybe even ATT as they scurry to change in a way that _might_ become Tivo-compatible), or Cable if you can manage to hold your nose, the Tivo remains the best HiDef solution.


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## newsposter

justapixel said:


> My TV has four HDMI ports and I've tried them all. Nothing changes.


what tv do you have? wish i had 4 as i have to use a switcher.

sorry ur gonna miss out on all our nice HD channels on directv. My only issues of significance have been the 110 cutting out on tuner 2. This is a known problem on dbs and i live with it since i have 2 hdtivos to record off the 110

on the good side it's nice that you didnt get too long to get used to all these channels so prob wont miss them.


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## gio1269

Mark Lopez said:


> Shouldn't that be - 'I can't believe I got unlucky and either had a bad install or got a bad unit'?
> 
> The majority of people have had no problems at all (both of my HR20 work perfectly). For every complaint about the HR2X, there is one about Tivo. You of all people should know that. The bottom line is some people are going to have problems no matter what unit they have. So making a comment like...


Bingo!!! I guess my "ready for primtime" HR10-250 *TiVo* which died in the firt 2 weeks was! Then came TiVo WONDERFUL 6.x upgrades that did this thing in! Even on the older updates I went through 3 units. Then the 3rd just died 2 weeks ago and now is been dumped in the trash.

funny, but this TiVo board has always been flooded with HR10-250 complaints since I have been lurking since 2006!

It a DVR form Christs sakes!! My HR20-700 and HR20-100S have been flawless for over a year now on the HR20-700. Nor ONE missed recording. My Hr10 coul;d not say that. Faster Menus, more features and better SPM.

ASlso with D* at least here, beats he HELL out of Comcrap. I sure you hope she enjoys cable and those soon to be out of production S3 if she goes that way.

What a great Company TiVo seems to be. You can't keep stock on a unit so you deiced to discontinue it?  

Look, every DVR, computer or electronic stuff is normally not perfect.

BTW Pixel, HDMI and Component has the SAME picture quality. Did you check if the HDMI cable is bad and not the HDMI card in the HR20? Did not the HR10 have a TON of complaints on dying HDMI cards?

What a TiVo lemming!!


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## shibby191

Imagine that, a bad HDMI port. The HR10-250's didn't have any of those did they. 

Come on JAP, you know better then this. To flame DirecTV and all HR2x's because you have a bad HDMI port is forgetting the past and all the multitude of had HDMI ports the HR10-250 had.

As for picture quality, HDMI and Component are the same, don't let people fool you. You'd have to have better then perfect vision to see the difference as there just isn't any. Only reason there is even an HDMI port is for DRM.

Component and optical audio for DD 5.1 and you're just fine.

But hey, go on off to cable if you must and pray that Tivo gets a switched video dongle for you before all your channels go missing.


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## RS4

I always get a kick out of the HR20 crowd. Here the OP mentioned her problems with the HR2x and we get a group of folks telling us how bad their DTivos were/are. I'm not sure how that is relevant to the discussion, but I'm sure they'll justify somehow.

justapixel, I recently started trying out Comcast after being with D* for 13 years. I found that I could get by with 4 tuners on 2 Tivo HDs because of MRV. I like the mrv feature. The other THD shows up as a folder in my Now Playing list so I can see everything.

I was amazed at the quality of Comcast signal compared to D* and my OTA signals.

The nice thing about Comcast in my area is that there was a $17.99 charge for bringing out the MStream card, but no commitment, so the cost of testing the service was quite low. Then too, I had 30 days to try out the Tivos. The test has gone so well for me that I have unhooked the DTivos and will be canceling D* next week.


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## gio1269

RS4 said:


> I always get a kick out of the HR20 crowd. Here the OP mentioned her problems with the HR2x and we get a group of folks telling us how bad their DTivos were/are. I'm not sure how that is relevant to the discussion, but I'm sure they'll justify somehow.
> 
> justapixel, I recently started trying out Comcast after being with D* for 13 years. I found that I could get by with 4 tuners on 2 Tivo HDs because of MRV. I like the mrv feature. The other THD shows up as a folder in my Now Playing list so I can see everything.
> 
> I was amazed at the quality of Comcast signal compared to D* and my OTA signals.
> 
> The nice thing about Comcast in my area is that there was a $17.99 charge for bringing out the MStream card, but no commitment, so the cost of testing the service was quite low. Then too, I had 30 days to try out the Tivos. The test has gone so well for me that I have unhooked the DTivos and will be canceling D* next week.


You must have a crappy OTA and or stations there.

But I am glad it's worked for you.


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## rickmeoff

Mark Lopez said:


> The majority of people have had no problems at all (both of my HR20 work perfectly).


really? and you know this as a statistical fact?

my hr20 screws up/misses recordings about once or twice a month. its always done this. its got a lot of little bugs that ive just gotten used to, and shrug off. do i like it? yes, its for the most part, adaquate.

ive owned it for over a year.

yet youve had 2 'flawless' units for 6 weeks, and suddenly youre here posting 'the majority of people have had no problems at all....' as if its fact?

how did you come to this conclusion? maybe a dtv csr told you? lol


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## madbeachcat

Redux said:


> I was banned from Tivo Community Forum for my strong positive feelings about Tivo, so I will be careful here. I do not question that all of the anti-Tivo HR20/21 supporters here are potential Nobel Prize winners, and not a single one of them has any connection to DirecTV that might taint their posts here.
> 
> That having been said ...
> 
> Most of my local Tivo community who got suckered into the DirecTV HR20 and, especially, the HR21, have paid the DirecTV extortion and escaped from the contract. A few stuck, and I look in occasionally. It is not a pretty picture.
> 
> Comcast can be a bitter pill to swallow. Others are better but I can't claim re-hooking up to Cable is a love-fest. But almost all who jettisoned DirecTV and went to Cable with the Tivo series 3 and HD are very happy. Those nearby who were able to get FIOS for their Tivos are ecstatic. I've asked to be adopted but they can only tolerate me in very small doses.
> 
> Cable companies are fighting/mismanaging cable cards and that can be an initial Tivo s3/HD setup problem occasionally. Prognosis is better.
> 
> MANY of my constituency have chosen a combination of OTA HiDef (OTA is the _best_ HiDef available anywhere, ironically), plus a "lifeline" Cable subscription, and a usually very low-priced digital Cable tier; all of this piped through the Tivo s3 or Tivo HD. Supplemented with Netflix and Redbox for recent releases, high quality though not HiDef. This is an extremely good mix in terms of dollar value; Sports (ESPN and sports channels) being the major gap.
> 
> I hate to say this, because I have a fondness for Tivo, but even the newer DISH dvrs and some of the Cable company Tivo knockoffs are not all that bad, certainly better than the DirecTV HR20/21. But with FIOS (maybe even ATT as they scurry to change in a way that _might_ become Tivo-compatible), or Cable if you can manage to hold your nose, the Tivo remains the best HiDef solution.


Odd, because my trusty HDtivo had several of those problems in the 2 year I had it. And I still don't bash it because all in all it was a good product. So is my HR21. Good luck to everyone no matter what option they choose, but why do there have to be so many people bashing the other side no matter what the other side is.

And, by the way JAP, although I understand you are upset, it does not seem appropriate for you to be bashing too.


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## shanew1289

Welcome to the new world. I have the same issues with DELL and all others. They make good stuff cheap. Yes, the HR20 is good IMO. But you just HOPE you get a good one. Otherwise getting them to fix it is like venturing into hell. Just dont tell EVERYONE its crap cause you are having a bad experience. Ive just been lucky I guess. 2 HR20's running good. Now I can watch my home videos on the HR20. SWEET! 

BTW:

HDMI is digital. Compnent is ANALOG. So there is a MUCH greater chance for noise to be introduced into the compnent video line.

If you run an HDMI 50 feet and a compnent 50 feet, I would tell people to use HDMI to ensure the signal does not pick up any noise.

3-6 feet behind tv, I would agree HDMI cables and Component cables are virtually the same to the normal human eye. BUT THEY ARE NOT EQUAL IMO


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## shanew1289

RS4 said:


> I was amazed at the quality of Comcast signal compared to D* and my OTA signals.


WOW. How does comcast improve upon an OTA signal?


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## daperlman

eddyj said:


> Ann, you may be able to use HDMI for the picture, and the other outputs for the audio. That way you get the best picture.


That is what I would do. HDMI for pic and toslink for sound


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## daperlman

AVPhan said:


> Wrong....... No differences between HDMI and Component that regular eyes can see.


That isn't true. Depending on the technology the TV/Monitor uses for picture there could be noticeable differences... not to mention the pictures settings stored on the monitors that are associated with the different inputs.

As for the 'mine works you just got unlucky' story line - you could say my Jaguar works fine, so you are just unlucky (ignoring the point of fact that it is less dependable than other similar cars). You can choose to believe that but I believe there is a problem with these units. I know 4 people who have made this switch (me included) and 1/4 has not had hardware issues. I personally went thru 3 units in the first month. JAP is right, the QA on these is not sufficient and her experience is far too common.


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> I always get a kick out of the HR20 crowd. Here the OP mentioned her problems with the HR2x and we get a group of folks telling us how bad their DTivos were/are. I'm not sure how that is relevant to the discussion, but I'm sure they'll justify somehow.


No, it's all a matter of perspective which of course you never get. To claim that all HR20s are crap because an HDMI port failed is the same as 2 years ago claiming that all Tivo's are crap because of the flood of failed HDMI ports on the HR10-250. Both are wrong statements. But you obviously don't want to see that.

HDMI port failed, big deal. Call and get a free replacement and be done with it. Or just use the digital optical, it's what it's there for. It's much better to connect your audio directly to your AV receiver anyway then routing it thru the TV first and then to the AVR. Talk about introducing noise or hoping that a *TV* is actually gong to properly process audio. But anyway.

JAP, good luck in whatever you decide to do. I think it's obvious that you can't get over leaving Tivo behind and should look into cable and buying a couple Tivo's. Be happy, life is too short.


----------



## shibby191

shanew1289 said:


> BTW:
> 
> HDMI is digital. Compnent is ANALOG. So there is a MUCH greater chance for noise to be introduced into the compnent video line.
> 
> If you run an HDMI 50 feet and a compnent 50 feet, I would tell people to use HDMI to ensure the signal does not pick up any noise.
> 
> 3-6 feet behind tv, I would agree HDMI cables and Component cables are virtually the same to the normal human eye. BUT THEY ARE NOT EQUAL IMO


True. But then 3-6 feet to the TV is probably 99.8% of all installs. Not a lot of people doing a 25-50 foot run to a projector. In that case yes, HDMI all the way. But you'd still to an optical run to the AVR for audio. I would never use HDMI for audio, just too many problems with it due to a gazillion different HDMI implementations that TV manufacturers use.


----------



## Scott D

shibby191 said:


> Come on JAP, you know better then this. To flame DirecTV and all HR2x's because you have a bad HDMI port is forgetting the past and all the multitude of had HDMI ports the HR10-250 had.


This isn't flaming. This is correct. That machine really is that bad. I have never seen lack of thought go into this machine.

My point of view is this.....

DirecTV will not correct these items....
1. Dual tuner functionality. 
2. Series Link limit set at 50.
3. Search history set at 25.
4. Recording history data. (Show not recorded because show is now over. HUH??)

I'm sure there are more but that's enough for a start. The HR20 is nothing short of bad programming. Yes, that's what I said. Bad programming, not faulty programming. There is nothing wrong with the programming error wise, it's just plain stupid.


----------



## justapixel

madbeachcat said:


> And, by the way JAP, although I understand you are upset, it does not seem appropriate for you to be bashing too.


First, let me clarify the rules of this forum.

You are allowed to express your dismay at a company or product. Even TiVo. As long as you aren't obscene about it. You are not allowed to bash another member. Which, I haven't done.

I don't speak for everybody who has an HR20, and I never said I did. Based on my experiences with it, I wouldn't recommend it over TiVo. Obviously, I did choose it over TiVo but I am not happy. In under two months, I've had to call tech support three times; it's rebooted randomly for no apparent reason, it's frozen up, it's randomly not recorded several shows without giving me an explanation, and just about every single show I watch has pixelation and audio drop out.

After 8 years of flawless TiVo use, of course I'm going to be disappointed with the product. I'm not used to this.

Plus, their customer support is horrible. Despite her telling me it's a "known problem" she never once suggested I switch cables. Her solution was for me to wait a week for a repair guy to come out. And, that was not the first solution - she wasn't going to give me an option for repair for a week. She said to call back every two days this week to see if it repaired itself, and gave me a PIN number so I didn't have to go through their menu. I had to insist I wasn't going to do that and I wanted something done.

Hey, if you have a serious problem with your TiVo and you need help, you can find one of the TiVo employees posting here and ask them. Find that with Direct TV.

They have had plenty of time to develop a product that doesn't interfere with my TV watching. Unlike some others, I don't much care about the interface. Mac/PC, who cares... if they do the same thing? Menuing is different, I can learn that, no biggie. I don't need dual live buffers because I don't watch live TV, so that's not an issue for me. The fifty season SP option is a limitation but I have other DVRs so I'll manage.

I wasn't so much a TiVo fangirl as I was a DVR fangirl, or so I thought. TiVo was my first and only experience. But, my experience with this product has turned me into a TiVo fangirl. It's just better. *Based on my experience.*

However, since people here are telling me I got a bad box, I may give it another chance if they bring me a new one.

As for what kind of TV I have that has four HDMI ports - it's a Westinghouse 1080p 42 inch plasma I bought at Best Buy two months ago. Don't have the model number in front of me.

And yes, of course I made sure it wasn't the HDMI cable. It's the box. Even if it wasn't, and it was a bad cable, that still doesn't clear all the other negatives I've experienced with this box.


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> Hey, if you have a serious problem with your TiVo and you need help, you can find one of the TiVo employees posting here and ask them. Find that with Direct TV.


Just PM a mod at DBSTalk and they may be able to set you up. Also there are several DirecTV employees that post at DBSTalk (like Satracer who personally helps people with sports package problems). Seriously as people are told here all the time, if they want help with the DirecTV DVRs they need to go to DBSTalk for the best help. I don't understand why people continue to look for help here instead of there. This is a Tivo forum, DBSTalk is a DirecTV and Dish Network forum. 

I honestly think you have a bad box, at least HDMI wise. And if you get pixelization on *every* channel then that is also a sign of a bad box. Of course it could be just related to the bad HDMI port and will clear up if you use component (or you get a new box).

Good luck.


----------



## Mark Lopez

rickmeoff said:


> really? and you know this as a statistical fact?
> 
> yet youve had 2 'flawless' units for 6 weeks, and suddenly youre here posting 'the majority of people have had no problems at all....' as if its fact?
> 
> how did you come to this conclusion? maybe a dtv csr told you? lol


Well, I'll go by the the same criteria the Tivo fanatics go by. If someone were to post that their Tivo was a POS, people here would say, 'Oh, the majority are not having problems otherwise the forum would be full of thousands of complaints. All one has to do is a Google to find one of the most common forums. Therefore the problem can not be as widespread as you think'

That my friend, is the standard Tivo excuse that has been used here for years. And I've been here long enough to see it used time and time again.

So the 'statistical fact' is that there are not thousands of people complaining and given the number of units out there, anyone with an ounce of common sense would conclude that most are not having problems.

But let me ask you, how YOU would prove most Tivo users are not having problems? Oh, that's right, you can't either.

And BTW, it's been 2 1/2 months, not 6 weeks. I think if one was going to not work properly, it would have done so by now.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Scott D said:


> This isn't flaming. This is correct. That machine really is that bad. I have never seen lack of thought go into this machine.
> 
> My point of view is this.....
> 
> DirecTV will not correct these items....
> 1. Dual tuner functionality.
> 2. Series Link limit set at 50.
> 3. Search history set at 25.
> 4. Recording history data. (Show not recorded because show is now over. HUH??)


1. There is an easy workaround made even easier with the last update. A non issue for anyone who doesn't just want something to complain about.
2. You need to get out more if you watch that much TV.
3. And Tivo had how many in it's search history? Oh wait....
4. And the infamous 'Someone in your houshold.......' is so much better?


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> Hey, if you have a serious problem with your TiVo and you need help, you can find one of the TiVo employees posting here and ask them. Find that with Direct TV.


I haven't seen a Tivo employee post here in quite a while.

While, they may not respond directly, DirecTV monitors the issues posted at the other forum and there are people there who act as conduits to them. They even have an open beta (CE) program to help track down bugs etc before national releases. IMO that is being very proactive in resolving problems and implementing many requested features. Of course they can't please everyone, and there are some things they said they won't do. But that's no different than Tivo refusing to implement features that have been asked for since day one.


----------



## rickmeoff

Mark Lopez said:


> But let me ask you, how YOU would prove most Tivo users are not having problems? Oh, that's right, you can't either.


um, we're not talking about tivo here; lets try and focus? we're talking about the hr20.

you posted as fact that most people werent having problems with their hr20, which is absolute rubbish, as you know no such fact.

its careless to post such things unless you can back them up, rather than just making things up that suit you, while offering up another opportunity for you to call people here who prefer tivo 'fanatics, lemmings' and 'zealots.'

people are allowed to have opinions and preferences without having to worry about being labelled as a 'fanatic.' i would think that anybody 'with an ounce of common sense' wouldnt resort to such low-handed tactics.

theres room in my house for both the hr20, and the hr10: i prefer one over the other, so shoot me.


----------



## Mark Lopez

rickmeoff said:


> um, we're not talking about tivo here; lets try and focus? we're talking about the hr20.


How convenient to dodge the question with the excuse we are not talking about Tivo even though the OT is about reliability compared to Tivo.



rickmeoff said:


> you posted as fact that most people werent having problems with their hr20, which is absolute rubbish, as you know no such fact.


As I said, my 'facts' are simple. Since there are not thousands of people posting that their HR2x does not work, a *reasonble* person would conclude that most are not having problems. Given the number of units in service, if the problems were as wide spread as some would make you think, there would certainly be a lot more more than what we see here and on every other forum.


----------



## Jon J

justapixel said:


> Hey, if you have a serious problem with your TiVo and you need help, you can find one of the TiVo employees posting here and ask them. Find that with Direct TV.


Okay. Head over to DBSTalk and the forums dedicated to your receiver. You'll be much closer to actual help there with a DirecTV reciever than you would here getting help on a TiVo reciever.

I challenge you to post your problems at DBSTalk and see how long it takes to get a personal response.


----------



## rickmeoff

Mark Lopez said:


> How convenient to dodge the question with the excuse we are not talking about Tivo even though the OT is about reliability compared to Tivo.


 lol, i wasnt dodging a question. my post was referring to your inability to follow the point i was making about _your statment _that the majority of hr20 owners dont have problems, and posting that as a verified fact.

and your response was suddenly about tivo having problems, which had absolutely nothing to do with it.



Mark Lopez said:


> As I said, my 'facts' are simple. Since there are not thousands of people posting that their HR2x does not work, a *reasonble* person would conclude that most are not having problems. Given the number of units in service, if the problems were as wide spread as some would make you think, there would certainly be a lot more more than what we see here and on every other forum.


oh, okay. so your original posted 'fact' is now simply a _conclusion_ based on what youve read in the forum...merely supposition. which isnt how you originally posted it.

had you stated that to begin with, rather than "The majority of people have had no problems at all (both of my HR20 work perfectly)," it wouldnt have made a big difference.

try and let that soak in.


----------



## Mark Lopez

rickmeoff said:


> oh, okay. so your original posted 'fact' is now simply a _conclusion_ based on what youve read in the forum...merely supposition. which isnt how you originally posted it.


Ummm.... You were the one who started throwing out the word 'fact'. However, once again, it does not take a very big leap of faith to come to that conclusion since there aren't that many problem threads in relationship to the number of units out there. Play all the word games you want, the bottom line is not everyone, and not even most people are having these sort of problems. But if it will make you feel better, I will rephrase it:

*IMO* based on the evidence on these forums and the number of units in service, the majority of people have had no problems at all.

Happy now?


----------



## justapixel

Jon J said:


> /
> I challenge you to post your problems at DBSTalk and see how long it takes to get a personal response.


I did post my problem over there.

Like I said earlier, before anybody even responded to me over there I'd had a full thread here including Mark Lopez's typical devil's advocate stance. 

Here, I almost immediately got a reply that got my box working. :up: Which, I never did get over there, even now. All I got was somebody telling me to be nice to the CSR.  It cracks me up when people think because you post a complaint in a forum you are automatically rude to the CSR. 

I got my answer here - this is the home of the SOAK, don't forget. 

Reading over there I see numerous threads about problems with the unit - the whole first page is full of them. Now, I didn't read in depth and I'm certain that Mark will point out the one or two per page that praises this box. But, on a glance, it seems that a whole lot of people are having issues.

Now, go into the Coffee House and compare just the thread titles. They aren't about problems with TiVo, as in the HR 20 section at DBS. They are discussing TiVo - articles, ads, transfering service and general "how to" stuff.

Go into the Comcast TiVo section here, and many thread titles that seem to be complaining are more focused on Comcast than TiVo, it seems to me on cursory glance.

Does this prove the HR20 is crap? No. Does this prove TiVo is wonderful? No. But, if you are going to use what people say on these two forums as an indication of whether a product is well-liked or not - seems there are a whole lot more problems with the HR 20. Obviously, I didn't do an in-depth analysis because I don't care, but feel free to do so to make a point.

I'm really glad that many of you seem to like them and have no problems with them. I hoped that my experience was an anomoly - and I fully expected to be just as happy with the HR 20 as the TiVo. It didn't turn out that way, so I thought I'd let people on the fence know my experiences.

I don't understand why people take personal offense when somebody shares a different experience than they had.

Oh, and whoever (Mark?) said that they hadn't seen a TiVo employee posting here in a long time hasn't been paying attention. TiVoStephen has posted about 60 times this past month.


----------



## shibby191

Ummm, what kind of response do you want when you come right out and start your post with "POS HR20" and it's your first post. Most people are just going to ignore it thinking it's another "drive by". You're a mod, you see this all the time.


----------



## deezel629

Who knew this thread would turn to this? 

Good luck in whatever you decide to do, JAP. Glad to help.

/unsubscribe


----------



## Scott D

Mark Lopez said:


> 1. There is an easy workaround made even easier with the last update. A non issue for anyone who doesn't just want something to complain about.
> 2. You need to get out more if you watch that much TV.
> 3. And Tivo had how many in it's search history? Oh wait....
> 4. And the infamous 'Someone in your houshold.......' is so much better?


I do get out, thank you very much.

Indefinite. Is that enough for you?

I'd sure like to know if someone deleted my shows, that's for sure. The only message you get on the HR20 is the show is now over. What good is that? So yes, when I ask it why I didn't get the show I'll know why. I can change things like priority or something.

As I said before, the programming sucks. There was ABSOLUTELY no thought that went into it nor will they (DirecTV) change any of the aforementioned items. DirecTV isn't interested in making you happy. They are interested in making money thus the no trial time as the cable companies and TiVo offer. Why? Because DirecTV knows that they will lose customers IMMEDIATELY. That is why they put the two year commitment and if you're dumb enough to allow them to charge you $200.00 on a leased product, then, what can I say. Yes, the support DirecTV gives you also needs vast improvement too.

I too plan on leaving DirecTV based on service and lack of DVR functionality as well.


----------



## terpfan1980

Scott D said:


> I do get out, thank you very much.
> 
> Indefinite. Is that enough for you?
> 
> I'd sure like to know if someone deleted my shows, that's for sure. The only message you get on the HR20 is the show is now over. What good is that? So yes, when I ask it why I didn't get the show I'll know why. I can change things like priority or something.
> 
> *As I said before, the programming sucks. There was ABSOLUTELY no thought that went into it nor will they (DirecTV) change any of the aforementioned items. DirecTV isn't interested in making you happy. They are interested in making money thus the no trial time as the cable companies and TiVo offer. Why? Because DirecTV knows that they will lose customers IMMEDIATELY. That is why they put the two year commitment and if you're dumb enough to allow them to charge you $200.00 on a leased product, then, what can I say. Yes, the support DirecTV gives you also needs vast improvement too.*
> 
> I too plan on leaving DirecTV based on service and lack of DVR functionality as well.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with much of that bold faced area as I know only too well that DirecTV is working their tails off trying to improve the HR20, HR21, R15 and the rest of their receivers.

They release new code for public testing (called Cutting Edge) nearly every week. The HR20, HR21, R15, etc., have all seen *major* changes over the last year and those changes continue.

If DirecTV didn't care, they wouldn't be adding features at all, they'd have left the boxes as they were on day one. They have instead been picking off items requested on the big wish list of features that are most wanted by people that have provided feedback over on DBSTalk.com

Pooh pooh that support if you want, claim that DirecTV isn't listening to customers if you want, but that isn't the case.

They may be jerks about early termination fees (which I wish they weren't), they may be jerks about charging 'lease upgrade fees' (which I wish they wouldn't), and they may still have a lot of items left on the wish lists, but those wish lists have seen major changes and a lot of the items on those feature wish lists have been delivered in some form or another.


----------



## tfederov

bdowell said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with much of that bold faced area as I know only too well that DirecTV is working their tails off trying to improve the HR20, HR21, R15 and the rest of their receivers.
> 
> They release new code for public testing (called Cutting Edge) nearly every week. The HR20, HR21, R15, etc., have all seen *major* changes over the last year and those changes continue.
> 
> If DirecTV didn't care, they wouldn't be adding features at all, they'd have left the boxes as they were on day one. They have instead been picking off items requested on the big wish list of features that are most wanted by people that have provided feedback over on DBSTalk.com.


Yep. As a matter of fact, if you want to know how the first year of the HR20 went, you can look here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93690&highlight=year+review+HR20


----------



## Sir_winealot

Mark Lopez said:


> Ummm.... You were the one who started throwing out the word 'fact'. However, once again, it does not take a very big leap of faith to come to that conclusion since there aren't that many problem threads in relationship to the number of units out there. Play all the word games you want, the bottom line is not everyone, and not even most people are having these sort of problems.


What a bunch of baloney. There are plenty of problem threads, and have been for the last year +. They have without-a-doubt become much less frequent as the unit has gotten much better, but you seem to be taking quite a liberty with your "conclusions."

As JAP mentioned, even now a cursory glance reveals as much.


----------



## Jon J

justapixel said:


> I did post my problem over there.


Under what name did you post? I would like to follow the thread. 

Nevermind. I found it.


----------



## robnalex

These infantile threads never cease to amaze me. Yes, JAP, "your" HR20 is a POC. You got a bad one. It happens all the time with ANY otherwise good product. Until recently I've been running 2 HR10s since they were introduced. Along the way, 2 of them were bad and were replaced. I'm now running 2 HR20s. One of them had a bad IR sensor and was replaced. Otherwise they work just fine and do everything I want them to do, just as my HR10s did once I got 2 that weren't bad. We all get cranky when we get a toy that doesn't work- I sure do. But I would expect a more reasoned, less hyperbolic reaction from a moderator. Get over it. Get a new one. Have lunch. Take a nap. Take a walk. Make love. Move on. Life is short.


----------



## RS4

shanew1289 said:


> WOW. How does comcast improve upon an OTA signal?


I should have elaborated a little more - I was trying to point out that the HD video from Comcast was as good as the equivalent channel from my antenna. I also think the cable channels such as ESPN are a little sharper than the equivalent channels (in the 70's) on Direct. So, all in all, I feel like the Comcast is showing excellent HD video, as good as my OTA and better than the D* equivalent.


----------



## shibby191

Scott D said:


> They are interested in making money thus the no trial time as the cable companies and TiVo offer. Why? Because DirecTV knows that they will lose customers IMMEDIATELY. That is why they put the two year commitment and if you're dumb enough to allow them to charge you $200.00 on a leased product, then, what can I say. Yes, the support DirecTV gives you also needs vast improvement too.


You *do* realize don't you that the commitments have been around a lot longer then the inhouse DirecTV DVRs, right? The last 2 DirecTivo's I activated, the last one over 3 years ago, came with a commitment (1 year at the time). While I don't think anybody like commitments, they had them back in the "Tivo era" as well. So don't fool yourself into thinking it's because they don't offer Tivo anymore.

As for $200...well...personally I'd rather pay $200 up front and only $4.99 a month mirror fee (or zero if it's your only receiver) then the $15+ per month you pay the cable company to lease their box. I'll come out ahead money wise before the 2 year commitment is up while someone with cable will keep on paying forever. Thus I'm spending less. I'd rather pay up front with lower monthly but hey, to each his own.


----------



## RS4

tfederov said:


> Yep. As a matter of fact, if you want to know how the first year of the HR20 went, you can look here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93690&highlight=year+review+HR20


I'm surprised you guys actually brag about this. All this says to me is that the Direct boxes were released way too early. I'm glad they're making improvements, but coming from a base of a barely functioning dvr to what is in the market now should be no surprise to anyone. We all know they couldn't leave the product that was released as is - they would have gotten laughed right out of the market.


----------



## Scott D

bdowell said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with much of that bold faced area as I know only too well that DirecTV is working their tails off trying to improve the HR20, HR21, R15 and the rest of their receivers.
> 
> They release new code for public testing (called Cutting Edge) nearly every week. The HR20, HR21, R15, etc., have all seen *major* changes over the last year and those changes continue.
> 
> If DirecTV didn't care, they wouldn't be adding features at all, they'd have left the boxes as they were on day one. They have instead been picking off items requested on the big wish list of features that are most wanted by people that have provided feedback over on DBSTalk.com
> 
> Pooh pooh that support if you want, claim that DirecTV isn't listening to customers if you want, but that isn't the case.
> 
> They may be jerks about early termination fees (which I wish they weren't), they may be jerks about charging 'lease upgrade fees' (which I wish they wouldn't), and they may still have a lot of items left on the wish lists, but those wish lists have seen major changes and a lot of the items on those feature wish lists have been delivered in some form or another.


Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not buying it.

I still see that the areas I mentioned won't be changed. Maybe more.


----------



## Scott D

shibby191 said:


> You *do* realize don't you that the commitments have been around a lot longer then the inhouse DirecTV DVRs, right? The last 2 DirecTivo's I activated, the last one over 3 years ago, came with a commitment (1 year at the time). While I don't think anybody like commitments, they had them back in the "Tivo era" as well. So don't fool yourself into thinking it's because they don't offer Tivo anymore.
> 
> As for $200...well...personally I'd rather pay $200 up front and only $4.99 a month mirror fee (or zero if it's your only receiver) then the $15+ per month you pay the cable company to lease their box. I'll come out ahead money wise before the 2 year commitment is up while someone with cable will keep on paying forever. Thus I'm spending less. I'd rather pay up front with lower monthly but hey, to each his own.


Yes, I do know. And you can EASILY get out of the commitments when the TiVo's were in business. DirecTV came to realize that their brand of DVR stinks. In order to keep customers a little longer, they force a commitment, no exceptions, for any upgrades. The only way possible out of it is repairs or replacements.

Nice try


----------



## Scott D

RS4 said:


> I'm surprised you guys actually brag about this. All this says to me is that the Direct boxes were released way too early. I'm glad they're making improvements, but coming from a base of a barely functioning dvr to what is in the market now should be no surprise to anyone. We all know they couldn't leave the product that was released as is - they would have gotten laughed right out of the market.


You said it brother!!!

It stinked then and it stinks now!


----------



## Sir_winealot

robnalex said:


> These infantile threads never cease to amaze me. <snip> But I would expect a more reasoned, less hyperbolic reaction from a moderator. <snip> Get over it.


So you've managed to call her thread "infantile," whilest stating that _her opinion_ on _her experience _is unreasonable and she is over reacting.

Following it up with the "get over it" frosting on the cake.

And we wonder why these debates often times turn into flame-fests that become personal.


----------



## pendragn

Scott D said:


> Yes, I do know. And you can EASILY get out of the commitments when the TiVo's were in business. DirecTV came to realize that their brand of DVR stinks. In order to keep customers a little longer, they force a commitment, no exceptions, for any upgrades. The only way possible out of it is repairs or replacements.
> 
> Nice try


Doesn't TiVo require a year commitment even if you're signing up a used TiVo that is not being subsidized? Are they too doing it because the "came to realize that their brand of DVR stinks. In order to keep customers a little longer, they force a commitment, no exceptions, for any upgrades. "? Or could there possibly be another reason companies like DirecTV and TiVo require commitments?

tk


----------



## gio1269

RS4 said:


> I should have elaborated a little more - I was trying to point out that the HD video from Comcast was as good as the equivalent channel from my antenna. I also think the cable channels such as ESPN are a little sharper than the equivalent channels (in the 70's) on Direct. So, all in all, I feel like the Comcast is showing excellent HD video, as good as my OTA and better than the D* equivalent.


The HD MPEG-4 Locals I get from D* here are as good as the OTA signal I get here. Both are stunning IMO.

HD from Comcrap sucks around here. At least in my area. I heard other areas in the SFLA area it's better. The HD on my neighbors TV (same Panasonic Plasma, but 50" over my 42" looks ok but not as nice as HD via OTA or D*)

Yes, I know others areas could look better. But the overall opinion I see and here everywhere is D* HD MPEG 4 locals are as good as any HD whether it's OTA or Cable.

But hey, you happy right? You get to keep TiVo and you get a nice HD picture. Many D* HR20/21 owners are doing the same so....

Bottom line in all of this. If you re4ally want/need a TiVo look into cable and real TiVo units. You want great HD, a great and improving DVR and can live without TiVo then look at the HR20/21 series from D*.

The D* TiVO SB box was my first and only experience with Tivo. I was very happy and realized I could never live with out a Tivo/DVR again.

The the HR10-250 nightmares started. I switched to the HR20 and could not be happier. If that HR10-250 was as reliable as the HR20 that I have, kept it's own features like the Wish list and guide but had all the HR20 features I would be on happy guy.

For now I am happy with the HR20, but will never rule out TiVo in the future if cable gets it's act together here or D* offers it.


----------



## robnalex

Sir_winealot said:


> So you've managed to call her thread "infantile," whilest stating that _her opinion_ on _her experience _is unreasonable and she is over reacting.
> 
> Following it up with the "get over it" frosting on the cake.
> 
> And we wonder why these debates often times turn into flame-fests that become personal.


The OP isn't responsible for every post in a thread that turns into a juvenile pissing contest, but yes, I do think she overreacted, though I sympathize with her frustration. Sooner or later we all get stuck with a defective product. Everyone knows this. It's a bummer, but it happens. Some people choose to rant and whine (I prefer to do it quickly and privately) and others choose to move quickly to a real solution, like getting off the pity pot, calling DirecTV, getting a replacement, and being deliriously happy once again.


----------



## HazelW

pendragn said:


> Doesn't TiVo require a year commitment even if you're signing up a used TiVo that is not being subsidized? Are they too doing it because the "came to realize that their brand of DVR stinks. In order to keep customers a little longer, they force a commitment, no exceptions, for any upgrades. "? Or could there possibly be another reason companies like DirecTV and TiVo require commitments?
> 
> tk


You can get TiVo service on a month to month basis with no commitment. If you sign up for a one or three year plan you get a lower price. And when you do sign up for a year or more plan you also get a commitment form TiVo not to raise the price during the period--something D* does not do. And you have 30 days to decide with TiVo.


----------



## pendragn

HazelW said:


> You can get TiVo service on a month to month basis with no commitment. If you sign up for a one or three year plan you get a lower price. And when you do sign up for a year or more plan you also get a commitment form TiVo not to raise the price during the period--something D* does not do. And you have 30 days to decide with TiVo.


That must have changed. In the past they REQUIRED a 12 month commitment. Dave Zatz wrote about it here. This was before the one to three year plans. Here's the verbage they used:



> WITH RESPECT TO ANY NEW TIVO SERVICE SUBSCRIPTION ACTIVATED ON OR AFTER SEPTEMBER 6, 2005, *YOU AGREE TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE TIVO SERVICE FOR NO LESS THAN 12 MONTHS *(THE SERVICE COMMITMENT). IF YOU FAIL TO MEET THE SERVICE COMMITMENT BY CANCELLING YOUR SUBSCRIPTION TO THE TIVO SERVICE (OR IF TIVO TERMINATES YOUR SUBSCRIPTION TO THE TIVO SERVICE DUE TO A BREACH OF THIS AGREEMENT), YOU AGREE THAT TIVO MAY CHARGE YOU A $150 EARLY TERMINATION FEE, AND YOU AGREE TO PAY ANY SUCH EARLY TERMINATION FEE.


So I ask, if DirecTV is forcing a two year commitment because they know their DVRs stinks like Scott D says then it must stand to reason that TiVo felt the same way about theirs in 2005. I think we all know that wasn't the case with TiVo in 2005 and it's not the case with DirecTV now.

tk


----------



## RS4

pendragn said:


> That must have changed. In the past they REQUIRED a 12 month commitment. Dave Zatz wrote about it here. This was before the one to three year plans. Here's the verbage they used:
> 
> So I ask, if DirecTV is forcing a two year commitment because they know their DVRs stinks like Scott D says then it must stand to reason that TiVo felt the same way about theirs in 2005. I think we all know that wasn't the case with TiVo in 2005 and it's not the case with DirecTV now.
> 
> tk


There is a commitment from Tivo, but the HUGE difference is that there is a 30-day trial program. You can return the product to Tivo for a refund.

In addition, as mentioned above, Tivo has several plans that will reduce the highest rate by about 50%, so it isn't much more that what Direct was charging. In fact, my over all costs between Tivo and Comcast are about the same as Direct, but I get more channels and more HD then what I was getting.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Sir_winealot said:


> What a bunch of baloney. There are plenty of problem threads, and have been for the last year +. They have without-a-doubt become much less frequent as the unit has gotten much better, but you seem to be taking quite a liberty with your "conclusions."
> 
> As JAP mentioned, even now a cursory glance reveals as much.


I never said there were not problems. What I said was that they were not in proportion to the number of units out there. If things were that bad, there would be a lot more 'me too' posts than there are. And mostly it's the same people (sort of like here) that keep bashing away over and over

As for a 'cursory glance', as of this post, the second thread in *this* forum is

 Here it is again......"Someone in your household modified the Season Pass"....


----------



## Mark Lopez

Scott D said:


> Indefinite. Is that enough for you?
> 
> I'd sure like to know if someone deleted my shows, that's for sure. The only message you get on the HR20 is the show is now over. What good is that?


Indefinite what? I thought you were talking about search histories (i.e. HR2x 'recent searches'). Unless I've missed something for the last 7+ years, Tivo does not have any.

And like I asked, getting the bogus 'Someone in your household modified the Season Pass' message is better? What good is that?


----------



## Sir_winealot

Mark Lopez said:


> I never said there were not problems. What I said was that they were not in proportion to the number of units out there. If things were that bad, there would be a lot more 'me too' posts than there are. And mostly it's the same people (sort of like here) that keep bashing away over and over
> 
> As for a 'cursory glance', as of this post, the second thread in *this* forum is
> 
> Here it is again......"Someone in your household modified the Season Pass"....


No, you stated that _"the majority of people have no problems at all," _which *I* said is total baloney.

Because as someone else posted, you have absolutely no idea if that is true ...and the basis for your statement that it is is weak, at best.

Or maybe the sales drone at Circuit City where you "messed with the unit" so you could come here and post its' praise for so long without ever having one physically in your posession was the source for this information, so it's _got _to be true?

It's funny how when someone starts a thread here that says they don't like the HR20, and in their experience and opinion it's a POC, people like you pipe in and tell them that they're wrong, as if they aren't entitled to that opinion.

And then you label them a TiVo Zealot.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Sir_winealot said:


> No, you stated that _"the majority of people have no problems at all," _which *I* said is total baloney.


Please note that complaining that the unit does not have a Tivo feature (i.e. DLB) is NOT the same thing as someone having a problem with an 'as advertised' feature. In other words you could probably toss out quite a few of the 'problems' because they revolve around lack of features they want or are used to and not actual issues (i.e. my unit locked up)



Sir_winealot said:


> Because as someone else posted, you have absolutely no idea if that is true ...and the basis for your statement that it is is weak, at best.


So by your reasoning you have no proof that I'm wrong either. Given the circumstantial evidence though, yours is the weak statement.



Sir_winealot said:


> Or maybe the sales drone at Circuit City where you "messed with the unit" so you could come here and post its' praise for so long without ever having one physically in your posession was the source for this information, so it's _got _to be true?


And here is proof again that you and your cronies can't have a debate without telling outright lies. You once again have to resort to telling the fabrication that my usage before leasing was at a store.  Those tactics are usually used as a last resort when people can't make their case. Give it up, already.



Sir_winealot said:


> It's funny how when someone starts a thread here that says they don't like the HR20, and in their experience and opinion it's a POC, people like you pipe in and tell them that they're wrong, as if they aren't entitled to that opinion.


When people express their experience that's fine. But when they recommended others not get the unit just because they have a problem, that's when I spoke up. It's no different than when someone posts a problem about a Tivo issue and they are quickly told that 'only a few' are having the problem (without the statistical facts you conveniently want now). And if they were to recommend people stay away from Tivo, the flame fest would begin. Pretty much like you are your zealot buddies are doing now.


----------



## rickmeoff

zowie, my head is spinnin. im expecting crop circles to appear in my back yard after reading this.

but the fact remains as mark lopez originally stated: the majority of people have no. problems. at. all. lol.

not-a-one. none. zero, zip, zilch.

so even though this debate has somehow transpired into a 4 page dissertation about, dual live buffers, advertised features, proof/circumstantial evidence, and tivo zealots (cronies) banding together in multitudes and spreading outright lies, the fact remains that mark says the majority have not a single problemo. 

so odds are, if the op calls dtv and gets another unit, FACT:it will be 100&#37; problem free because mark has had 2 units for 8 whole weeks that have performed flawlessly.

so if you hapen to have a unit that is in the minority and for some wacky reason happens to have a single problem, its obviously an anomoly (i know this becasue mark said so). and if your unit, or units (i went through 4 of them before getting one that worked pretty well) do indeed have a problem, you are WAY OUTTA LINE MR if you recommend others not get one because of YOUR problem.

and you are gonna hafta answer to mark, because THAT is the moment when he is gonna speak up!

dude, do rent yourself out for parties? cuz seriously, i gotta party with you. 

you crack me up.


----------



## gio1269

RS4 said:


> In fact, my over all costs between Tivo and Comcast are about the same as Direct, but I get more channels and more HD then what I was getting.


Comcast has more HD channels? I think not....More overall as well? Not here.

Locally 24 HD channels including locals in HD here. What 75+ for D*


----------



## gio1269

justapixel said:


> I did post my problem over there.
> 
> Like I said earlier, before anybody even responded to me over there I'd had a full thread here including Mark Lopez's typical devil's advocate stance.
> 
> Here, I almost immediately got a reply that got my box working. :up: Which, I never did get over there, even now. All I got was somebody telling me to be nice to the CSR.  It cracks me up when people think because you post a complaint in a forum you are automatically rude to the CSR.
> 
> I got my answer here - this is the home of the SOAK, don't forget.
> 
> Reading over there I see numerous threads about problems with the unit - the whole first page is full of them. Now, I didn't read in depth and I'm certain that Mark will point out the one or two per page that praises this box. But, on a glance, it seems that a whole lot of people are having issues.
> 
> Now, go into the Coffee House and compare just the thread titles. They aren't about problems with TiVo, as in the HR 20 section at DBS. They are discussing TiVo - articles, ads, transfering service and general "how to" stuff.
> 
> Go into the Comcast TiVo section here, and many thread titles that seem to be complaining are more focused on Comcast than TiVo, it seems to me on cursory glance.
> 
> Does this prove the HR20 is crap? No. Does this prove TiVo is wonderful? No. But, if you are going to use what people say on these two forums as an indication of whether a product is well-liked or not - seems there are a whole lot more problems with the HR 20. Obviously, I didn't do an in-depth analysis because I don't care, but feel free to do so to make a point.
> 
> I'm really glad that many of you seem to like them and have no problems with them. I hoped that my experience was an anomoly - and I fully expected to be just as happy with the HR 20 as the TiVo. It didn't turn out that way, so I thought I'd let people on the fence know my experiences.
> 
> I don't understand why people take personal offense when somebody shares a different experience than they had.
> 
> Oh, and whoever (Mark?) said that they hadn't seen a TiVo employee posting here in a long time hasn't been paying attention. TiVoStephen has posted about 60 times this past month.


Let's see, you posted @ 11:32PM and someone answered within 3 hrs? Not too bad! in less than 24 hrs you had the answer. I guess you expect people in the middle of th night to answer you. A quick search would have told you in less than 5 minutes.


----------



## Scooter

If she was getting audio dropouts that wouldn't come back I'm guessing that it wasn't an HR20 problem, rather it was a HDMI handshaking issue with her TV. Most likely she has the same problem I do with my oldest Samsung LCD and it needs a firmware update. It will drop the audio signal at random. Not often though. The only way to fix it is to change channels on the HR20 or turn the TV off and back on again. It does the same thing with more than one HR20, so it's not the HR20 to blame in my case. Could be the same for her... You never know. 

Justapixel, I realize it may be too late now, but you might want to see if there are firmware updates available for your TV.

I'm sorry you had a terrible experience. That's a shame. I've had really good luck with all of mine. Good luck with your next HD venture.

Scooter


----------



## Mark Lopez

rickmeoff said:


> zowie, my head is spinnin. im expecting crop circles to appear in my back yard after reading this.
> 
> but the fact remains as mark lopez originally stated: the majority of people have no. problems. at. all. lol.


Ok, let's dumb this down a bit so that maybe even you can understand. Since I don't know (and neither do you) the actual numbers, I'll use some very conservative figures.

Let's assume there are only 100k HR2x units in use (of course we all know the number is higher). In order for my statement not to be true, more than 50K of those people would have to be having problems. Now, let's also assume that only half of them have enough of a brain to do a search for 'HR2x problem'. So now we have 25K people looking for a solution or a place to complain. Now the top search results come up with the main HR2x forums. Now, let's assume only half of those people actually even go to the site. We are now at 25K. Now, let's say only 1/10 of those people actually post. That is still 2500 people posting 'My HR2x doesn't work'. Sorry, but there are no where near that number of (from different people) complaints of it not working (again tossing out the non relevant complaints of it not being a Tivo).

So if you disagree with my logic for any reason, then you would have to conclude that the majority of Tivo users also have problems, as the criteria I listed above is straight from the Tivo Army handbook for disputing widespread Tivo problems.

Oh, and I find it odd that when I called DirecTV's tech support over a programming issue (not related to the HR20 or my HR10) I was on hold for less than a minute. One would think that if the majority of HR2x users were having problems, their phones would be tied up for hours. <shrug>

So there, was that simple enough to understand? 



rickmeoff said:


> dude, do rent yourself out for parties? cuz seriously, i gotta party with you.
> 
> you crack me up.


The other day I saw a commercial about some product or service. The guy is holding a lemming and giving a pep talk and asking if the people were leaders (or something) or lemmings. Anyway, he has them all fired up and they are all shouting that they are 'leaders'. Then the lemming jumps out of the guys hand and scampers out the door. Next you see all of the people crawling on all fours out the door following it. All I could think of was some of the people (the Tivo lemmings I refer to) on this forum. 

It's some of you that crack me up.


----------



## RS4

gio1269 said:


> Comcast has more HD channels? I think not....More overall as well? Not here.
> 
> Locally 24 HD channels including locals in HD here. What 75+ for D*


I would encourage you to scan the entire message before replying next time. You'll discover that I wrote that I am receiving more HD channels than what I was getting from Direct for about the same price. I never said that Comcast had more HD national channels than Direct


----------



## gio1269

RS4 said:


> I would encourage you to scan the entire message before replying next time. You'll discover that I wrote that I am receiving more HD channels than what I was getting from Direct for about the same price. I never said that Comcast had more HD national channels than Direct


Ah...with the HR10-250 I assume right? You would NOT with the HR20.

I forgot you only had the HR10-250 which only gets a few HD channels.
Then you would.


----------



## Scott D

Mark Lopez said:


> Indefinite what? I thought you were talking about search histories (i.e. HR2x 'recent searches'). Unless I've missed something for the last 7+ years, Tivo does not have any.
> 
> And like I asked, getting the bogus 'Someone in your household modified the Season Pass' message is better? What good is that?


It's called wishlists in TiVos. It also acts as a search engine as well.


----------



## jimb726

RS4 said:


> I would encourage you to scan the entire message before replying next time. You'll discover that I wrote that I am receiving more HD channels than what I was getting from Direct for about the same price. I never said that Comcast had more HD national channels than Direct


In your opinion do the HD offerings from Comcast that match up to DirecTV, have a comparable picture? I dont know the answer to this, what compression method does the cable company use? I am just curious?


----------



## gio1269

Scott D said:


> It's called wishlists in TiVos. It also acts as a search engine as well.


Yep, that's the main feature we miss and wish d* boxes could have something very, very close to this. And DLB.


----------



## RS4

jimb726 said:


> In your opinion do the HD offerings from Comcast that match up to DirecTV, have a comparable picture? I dont know the answer to this, what compression method does the cable company use? I am just curious?


First of all, as Gio pointed out I'm comparing the video streams to an HR10-250. I never got an HR2x because D* wouldn't let me try it w/o a 2-yr commitment.

I only did a few comparisons - channels from the 70's and I felt the Comcast channels were a little more sharper. In the few days that I left the HR10-250, I probably checked about 4 or 5 times - just enough to let me know that each time I looked, I felt the same thing.

I have also checked the Comcast locals to my OTA. Both are absolutely outstanding as the HR10-250 was. The biggest difference for me is that the Tivo HD always gets local channels that the HR10-250 would not always get, so I assume this is due to using the newer version of technology although I don't know what that level is - I assume 4 or 5.

The biggest change I have noticed is that the SD channels are so much better than what I was used to on D*. I guess it has been years since I've seen Comcast and the digital SD was truly a big surprise to me.

I assume that Comcast is using mpeg2, but I don't know that for sure. I'm guessing that the Tivo HD does not have an mpeg4 encoder which makes me think Comcast is using mpeg2.

The other thing that really surprised me was the quality of the Tivocast. Tivo has a group of free internet broadcasts that can be downloaded. I visit cnet a lot and their videos are part of the service. The broadcasts coming off of that service are equivalent to full-screen SD which I find to be very impressive.

I had planned on testing for at least 3 weeks, but after 3 days I went out and bought a second Tivo HD (my local CompUSA is going out of business and they had 3 left, so I didn't want to pass up the opportunity) and started using MRV. I think with the MRV feature I will be able to use 2 THDs instead of 3 DTivos.


----------



## gio1269

RS4 said:


> First of all, as Gio pointed out I'm comparing the video streams to an HR10-250. I never got an HR2x because D* wouldn't let me try it w/o a 2-yr commitment.
> 
> I only did a few comparisons - channels from the 70's and I felt the Comcast channels were a little more sharper. In the few days that I left the HR10-250, I probably checked about 4 or 5 times - just enough to let me know that each time I looked, I felt the same thing.
> 
> I have also checked the Comcast locals to my OTA. Both are absolutely outstanding as the HR10-250 was. The biggest difference for me is that the Tivo HD always gets local channels that the HR10-250 would not always get, so I assume this is due to using the newer version of technology although I don't know what that level is - I assume 4 or 5.
> 
> The biggest change I have noticed is that the SD channels are so much better than what I was used to on D*. I guess it has been years since I've seen Comcast and the digital SD was truly a big surprise to me.
> 
> I assume that Comcast is using mpeg2, but I don't know that for sure. I'm guessing that the Tivo HD does not have an mpeg4 encoder which makes me think Comcast is using mpeg2.
> 
> The other thing that really surprised me was the quality of the Tivocast. Tivo has a group of free internet broadcasts that can be downloaded. I visit cnet a lot and their videos are part of the service. The broadcasts coming off of that service are equivalent to full-screen SD which I find to be very impressive.
> 
> I had planned on testing for at least 3 weeks, but after 3 days I went out and bought a second Tivo HD (my local CompUSA is going out of business and they had 3 left, so I didn't want to pass up the opportunity) and started using MRV. I think with the MRV feature I will be able to use 2 THDs instead of 3 DTivos.


I guess in Inday, Comcast quality is much better than down here. We all can agree D* SD has gotten worse of the years. But Comcast SD sucks here! Worse than D*. My in-laws just got comcast digital cable for their new Samsung LCD we bought them for Christmas. The SD picture is worse than D8. HD very close and but d* better. OTA is the exact same as the HR10 and HR20.

Also what type, brand and size TV do you have? I guess comcast's quality can differ big time between cities and states/regions.


----------



## Scooter

Someone comes in here and they want help with a problem and all we ever seem to get around here is childish arguing from a few select members. It's getting really old guys.
You guys and your stupid war are sure doing this forum a disservice. Are you planning to repeat this crap over and over again until you hit 15? Grow up.


----------



## pendragn

Scooter said:


> Someone comes in here and they want help with a problem and all we ever seem to get around here is childish arguing from a few select members. It's getting really old guys.
> You guys and your stupid war are sure doing this forum a disservice. Are you planning to repeat this crap over and over again until you hit 15? Grow up.


From reading the OP I didn't get the impression she was looking for help. She just wanted to vent. Sounds like they're keeping the spirit of the OP alive.

tk


----------



## Scooter

pendragn said:


> From reading the OP I didn't get the impression she was looking for help. She just wanted to vent. Sounds like they're keeping the spirit of the OP alive.
> 
> tk


Perhaps, but I'm willing to overlook her venting and frustration. She isn't one of those that comes in here and vents over and over again in here. 

This particular gang creates a lot of unnecessary tension in this forum and quite honestly I think some of those posters can be rather trollish at times. They usually come into these threads with no other intention but to start fights. Look at RS4 for instance (sorry, you really stand out). He doesn't even have DIRECTV anymore, but he hangs out here to pounce, seemingly the first chance he can when he smells blood. Personally, I find it odd that someone hangs out in a forum where you no longer have a vested interest, but if he just wants to sit around and bash DIRECTV, I guess that's what he's going to do.

I just think it's getting old. Sure I can ignore these threads, I don't think folks who come here looking for help should have to have their threads hijacked over and over again by them.

Scooter


----------



## lew

I don't think I can dumb this down enough for you to understand but I'll try...

100% of HR20 owners that posted only recorded the first half of the season premier of Grey's Anatomy. The same % of tivo customers lost (at most) the last minute of Grey's Anatomy.

The HR20/21 is not as reliable as tivo.

This discussion is moot, customers that want tivo should be looking to drop DTV.



Mark Lopez said:


> Ok, lets dumb this down a bit so that maybe even you can understand. Since I don't know (and neither do you) the actual numbers, I'll use some very conservative figures.
> 
> Let's assume there are only 100k HR2x units in use (of course we all know the number is higher). In order for my statement not to be true, more than 50K of those people would have to be having problems. Now, lets also assume that only half of them have enough of a brain to do a search for 'HR2x problem'. So now we have 25K people looking for a solution or a place to complain. Now the top search results come up with the main HR2x forums. Now, let's assume only half of those people actually even go to the site. We are now at 25K. Now, let's say only 1/10 of those people actually post. That is still 2500 people posting 'My HR2x doesn't work'. Sorry, but there are no where near that number of (from different people) complaints of it not working (again tossing out the non relevant complaints of it not being a Tivo).
> 
> Oh, and I find it odd that when I called DirecTV's tech support over a programming issue (not related to the HR20 or my HR10) I was on hold for less than a minute. One would think that if the majority of HR2x users were having problems, their phones would be tied up for hours. <shrug>
> 
> So there, was that simple enough to understand?
> 
> The other day I saw a commercial about some product or service. The guy is holding a lemming and giving a pep talk and asking if the people were leaders (or something) or lemmings. Anyway, he has them all fired up and they are all shouting that they are 'leaders'. Then the lemming jumps out of the guys hand and scampers out the door. Next you see all of the people crawling on all fours out the door following it. All I could think of was some of the people (the Tivo lemmings I refer to) on this forum.
> 
> It's some of you that crack me up.


----------



## gio1269

lew said:


> The HR20/21 is not as reliable as tivo.


What are you smoking? My HR20 has never missed a recording in a year now.. HR10, 12 in 1 1/2 yrs. No reason at all.

Just a Tivo Lemming keeping the flame wars alive


----------



## Mark Lopez

Scott D said:


> It's called wishlists in TiVos. It also acts as a search engine as well.


Ok, my mistake then. I thought you were talking about some sort of search *history*, something Tivo does not have but the HR2x does.



Scooter said:


> Someone comes in here and they want help with a problem and all we ever seem to get around here is childish arguing from a few select members. It's getting really old guys.
> You guys and your stupid war are sure doing this forum a disservice. Are you planning to repeat this crap over and over again until you hit 15? Grow up.


And someone put a gun to your head and forced you to read it once you saw that it wasn't going the way you wanted?

And if it wasn't for the 'war' there would be noithing to talk about except the 'Someone in your household......' 'feature'.


----------



## Klankster

God, this sucks. We got a (SD) TiVo shortly after they came out and were hooked. We were DirecTV subscribers mainly because of NFL Sunday Ticket, and when the HR10-250 came out, we snapped one up and despite a few problems we love the thing -- MAINLY because of the excellent program guide display (the classic TiVo one, with the list of current programs on the various channels in the left column, and the upcoming lineup of shows on the selected channel on the right). HD on TiVo rocks.

Now friggin' DirecTV has upgraded in a way that if I want the complete lineup of HD channels, I have to get one of their (non-TiVo) DVRs. So far we are resisting because we want a TiVo interface with its (IMHO) demonstrably superior channel guide and don't want to settle for less.

We want the NFL package so we're stuck with DirecTV. But we can't get a TiVo that is compatible with the new DirecTV (AFAIK). And I keep hearing that the HR2x models' reliability sucks, so even if we could hack in a TiVo-style interface, we'd be dealing with problems when all we really want is to watch some freakin' TV in HD.

Do I really have any options here besides just sticking with my HR10-250? I think we're not supposed to talk about hacking the units here so if you have any info in that regard, please PM me.

I'm sitting here hoping someone will reply to tell me about the new DirecTV HD DVR with a TiVo interface that I didn't know about...


----------



## shibby191

Klankster said:


> God, this sucks. We got a (SD) TiVo shortly after they came out and were hooked. We were DirecTV subscribers mainly because of NFL Sunday Ticket, and when the HR10-250 came out, we snapped one up and despite a few problems we love the thing -- MAINLY because of the excellent program guide display (the classic TiVo one, with the list of current programs on the various channels in the left column, and the upcoming lineup of shows on the selected channel on the right). HD on TiVo rocks.
> 
> Now friggin' DirecTV has upgraded in a way that if I want the complete lineup of HD channels, I have to get one of their (non-TiVo) DVRs. So far we are resisting because we want a TiVo interface with its (IMHO) demonstrably superior channel guide and don't want to settle for less.
> 
> We want the NFL package so we're stuck with DirecTV. But we can't get a TiVo that is compatible with the new DirecTV (AFAIK). And I keep hearing that the HR2x models' reliability sucks, so even if we could hack in a TiVo-style interface, we'd be dealing with problems when all we really want is to watch some freakin' TV in HD.
> 
> Do I really have any options here besides just sticking with my HR10-250? I think we're not supposed to talk about hacking the units here so if you have any info in that regard, please PM me.
> 
> I'm sitting here hoping someone will reply to tell me about the new DirecTV HD DVR with a TiVo interface that I didn't know about...


There are no options. Stay with DirecTV and want HD, HR20/21. Period.

As for the guide, on the HR20/21 you can hit Info on the channel number in the guide and it will pull up the full 2 week guide data for that channel. One touch record a dozen shows in less then a minute, hit left to go back to the guide, rinse and repeat. Not the same thing as the Tivo guide but so much faster to setup recordings. Just a matter of what you're used to.

But hey, if you have to have the Tivo guide cable/Fios is your only choice.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Klankster said:


> -- MAINLY because of the excellent program guide display (the classic TiVo one, with the list of current programs on the various channels in the left column, and the upcoming lineup of shows on the selected channel on the right).


While not exactly the same thing, you can 'simulate' that effect by highlighting the channel and pressing info. Now some will say it is slow, but that's because it fetches all the info before displaying it, unlike Tivo where you have to wait for it to populate the screen every time you page down. However, I will agree that it is not the best work around. But OTOH, I find the speed of the HR2x grid guide (that was so painfully slow on the Tivo) to be easy to get used to, and the info displayed (i.e. what is recording or scheduled to record) makes it worth dealing with the change.



Klankster said:


> And I keep hearing that the HR2x models' reliability sucks, ......


True, some people have had problems. But no different than with Tivo. Look, even as we speak, Tivo is releasing an update to fix the random reboot bug that has been around for many months since the last update. So read past the few that have had *serious* issues and you will find many who are quite pleased and have had either no problems or minor ones.



Klankster said:


> I'm sitting here hoping someone will reply to tell me about the new DirecTV HD DVR with a TiVo interface that I didn't know about...


Well, don't sit waiting too long because it's not going to happen.


----------



## rickmeoff

Scooter said:


> Someone comes in here and they want help with a problem and all we ever seem to get around here is childish arguing from a few select members. It's getting really old guys.
> You guys and your stupid war are sure doing this forum a disservice. Are you planning to repeat this crap over and over again until you hit 15? Grow up.





Mark Lopez said:


> And someone put a gun to your head and forced you to read it once you saw that it wasn't going the way you wanted?
> 
> And if it wasn't for the 'war' there would be noithing to talk about except the 'Someone in your household......' 'feature'.


nice response.:down:

'miss manners, to the white courtesy phone....'

rs4 may not have owned an hr20, but at least his posts are civil in nature, while showing a modicum of intelligence. it seems you just wanna argue for the sake of arguing.

hope that works out for ya.


----------



## Mark Lopez

rickmeoff said:


> nice response.:down:
> 
> 'miss manners, to the white courtesy phone....'


Gee, it's funny how whenever anyone else complains about a thread's contents, no one seems to have a problem when one of the 'regulars' tells them the exact same thing - Don't like it, don't read it. But of course there are different rules for the Tivo clique. 



rickmeoff said:


> rs4 may not have owned an hr20, but at least his posts are civil in nature, while showing a modicum of intelligence.


LOL Civil by flaming anyone who has anything good to say about the HR2x. 



rickmeoff said:


> ....it seems you just wanna argue for the sake of arguing.


And what's your excuse?  For someone who thinks someone else is arguing just for the sake of it, you never seem to have a problem chiming in every chance you can. <shrug>


----------



## lew

*I'll try to make this simple enough for even you to understand, this was in my post which you quoted:*

The HR20-21 only recorded approximately half of the season premier of Grey's Anatomy. Do a search, either here or dbstalk.

Did you record that program?

*Otherwise your experience is irrelevent.*



gio1269 said:


> What are you smoking? My HR20 has never missed a recording in a year now.. HR10, 12 in 1 1/2 yrs. No reason at all.
> 
> Just a Tivo Lemming keeping the flame wars alive


----------



## nrc

Welcome to the DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs topic, Justapixel. This is what the stickey saying that it's ok to talk about non-TiVo DVR has brought. Some have taken it as an invitation to patrol this forum for anyone who dares to prefer TiVo over what DirecTV has to offer and correct them.

They like to claim that they're just here to correct misinformation from those who don't want to commit to stay with DirecTV for two years in order to try out their new DVR. As you've found out for yourself, they also make it their business to correct those with first hand experience for their mistaken opinions.

This forum is quickly becoming useless for those interested in TiVo. The competitive debate is really pointless. Those staying with DirecTV you have no choice. They should report to DBStalk.com for re-education. This should be a forum for those interested in keeping their HR10-250 in service as long as possible.


----------



## nrc

gio1269 said:


> What are you smoking? My HR20 has never missed a recording in a year now.. HR10, 12 in 1 1/2 yrs. No reason at all.
> 
> Just a Tivo Lemming keeping the flame wars alive


If you sign up to patrol forums denying that the HR20 has ever had problems do you get a special release of the software that doesn't have any of these problems? Because the entire HR20 owning population that hasn't had any problems seems to hang out on this forum.


----------



## Scott D

Mark Lopez said:


> Ok, my mistake then. I thought you were talking about some sort of search *history*, something Tivo does not have but the HR2x does.


When I compare something, I compare it with identical features. That's the only way to be fair about it. TiVo still outperforms the HR20 series.


----------



## joed32

nrc said:


> Welcome to the DirecTV HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs topic, Justapixel. This is what the stickey saying that it's ok to talk about non-TiVo DVR has brought. Some have taken it as an invitation to patrol this forum for anyone who dares to prefer TiVo over what DirecTV has to offer and correct them.
> 
> They like to claim that they're just here to correct misinformation from those who don't want to commit to stay with DirecTV for two years in order to try out their new DVR. As you've found out for yourself, they also make it their business to correct those with first hand experience for their mistaken opinions.
> 
> This forum is quickly becoming useless for those interested in TiVo. The competitive debate is really pointless. Those staying with DirecTV you have no choice. They should report to DBStalk.com for re-education. This should be a forum for those interested in keeping their HR10-250 in service as long as possible.


You're right, we need more threads concerning the HR10s and less threads arguing about which DVR is better. I think almost everyone has made their point. I still check in here every day and I will gladly answer questions about either platform if I can help someone. I have not and will not participate in bashing any equipment or provider. If people want to continue arguing every day they have a perfect right to do so but it seems pointless to me. Sorry for the rant, I still like this forum and the people here.


----------



## gio1269

nrc said:


> If you sign up to patrol forums denying that the HR20 has ever had problems do you get a special release of the software that doesn't have any of these problems? Because the entire HR20 owning population that hasn't had any problems seems to hang out on this forum.


Did I ever say the HR20s don't have their issues? God, you you are not too bright...

I said MY, MY HR20 has been flawless except a broken Optical port on my first HR2./ It broke is a month or so. But otherwise flawless software.
I wonder how many issues on the HR20 are from CE that people are downloading then complaining about them.

How about all the HR10 issues? They don't exist either right? pre 6.x HR10 was basically flawless. Only once did it ever miss a recording. My SD D* Tivo was and still is flawless. these things are damn computers and will always have issues.

How many HR10 and now dieing faster than we can type about them?

In 3 yrs I have been lurking this forum, most posts are about ISSUES with the HR10.

Same with the HR20. That's what 99.9% of these forums are about. To [email protected] and complain about your product.

Will mt HR20-700 and MY HR20-100S give my issues later on at some point? Sure! Its a damn DVR and computer.

BUT I *SURE* all the TiVO lemming here get their special software from Tivo as well that never misses a recording, HDD that never fail, HR10 that don't act crazy, etc right? God, you are a such joke!

I have stated many times. MY, HR20 so far has been perfect.

Anyone including myself on these stupid forums can right anything they want.

The Tivo have their crazies and the HR20 has theirs. BOTH are idiots IMO!

Hell, you don't even own a HR10-250 anymore do you? Never owned/leased a HR20 either right?

So shut up!

happy cracker?

yes, I am bringing my HR10 back to life for a third time with a new HDD and Instant cake. We will see how long that last.....


----------



## TonyD79

justapixel said:


> After 8 years of flawless TiVo use, of course I'm going to be disappointed with the product. I'm not used to this.


I take it you never had an HR10 as they had major problems. Losing recordings? Gee, those things lost whole CHANNELS.

Nor will you find the HD Tivos flawless either. Unless you forgive Tivo for its mistakes and errors.

I have had to reboot my HD Tivo 3 times as often as my TWO HR20s total since I had them all in place.

I hope you get your problem worked out (get a new box and forget about calls to the house from techs, just have them send you one and you put it in or experiment with other audio setups). Jumping to cable is not going to give you a flawless scenario, either.

And, as some of us told you, your post here just kicked up a ***** storm. Few real answers. Not as many ***** storms at dbstalk. Real answers and solutions for HR2x users there. Oh, that is right, your single attempt didn't blow you away so you think that is not a true statement.


----------



## gio1269

TonyD79 said:


> I take it you never had an HR10 as they had major problems. Losing recordings? Gee, those things lost whole CHANNELS.
> 
> Nor will you find the HD Tivos flawless either. Unless you forgive Tivo for its mistakes and errors.
> 
> I have had to reboot my HD Tivo 3 times as often as my TWO HR20s total since I had them all in place.
> 
> I hope you get your problem worked out (get a new box and forget about calls to the house from techs, just have them send you one and you put it in or experiment with other audio setups). Jumping to cable is not going to give you a flawless scenario, either.
> 
> And, as some of us told you, your post here just kicked up a ***** storm. Few real answers. Not as many ***** storms at dbstalk. Real answers and solutions for HR2x users there. Oh, that is right, your single attempt didn't blow you away so you think that is not a true statement.


What did you expect from here? The truth? A great experience?


----------



## nrc

gio1269 said:


> Did I ever say the HR20s don't have their issues? God, you you are not too bright...





> How about all the HR10 issues? They don't exist either right?





> Anyone including myself on these stupid forums can right anything they want.





> So shut up!


That's quite a rant. I suppose if the shoe fits you may as well put it on and stomp around some.

Anyway, I don't have anything to add, I just really enjoyed your sputtering tirade and wanted to say thanks. Never change.


----------



## gio1269

nrc said:


> That's quite a rant. I suppose if the shoe fits you may as well put it on and stomp around some.
> 
> Anyway, I don't have anything to add, I just really enjoyed your sputtering tirade and wanted to say thanks. Never change.


Sure. No, it's fits you very well!


----------



## Mark Lopez

joed32 said:


> You're right, we need more threads concerning the HR10s and less threads arguing about which DVR is better.


Being serious for a moment, what is there really left to talk about with the HR10?  The bottom line is it's mostly obsolete. As I stated earlier, if there were no discussions about the HR20 vs HR10, there would not be much to talk about. Even the upcoming 'update' for the HR10 doesn't even add anything. All it does is fix the random reboot bug. Funny though, that for a unit that people claim is so flawless, there needed to be a national release of a fix. <shrug>

I know some will disagree, but I have never bashed Tivo. I've owned one for over 8 years now and thought it was great in it's day. And yes it did/does have it's problems. But I'm not so closed minded that I won't look at something else. And while the HR2x does not have every feature that the HR10 had, it has more than enough extras to make up for it. IMO the DLB issue is blown out of proportion since you 'can' get the same functionality. Perhaps a little more effort, but it's still doable. Wishlists I can't really comment on. I think I've only used it a few times. But I can see where it might be important to someone. Although I personally would not let the lack of one or two features stand in my way. And the 50 SP limit is also not an issue for me as I have more than one DVR and even if I only had one, I run into conflicts long before I run into the 50 SP limit.

All I've ever done in these threads is point out that the HR2x is not as bad as some claim. My stance has always been look at all of the *facts* and then make your own choice. Some others however think that their way is the only way. I challenge anyone to find any post where I either told people to stay away from Tivo or told them that the HR2x was the only way to go.


----------



## mp11

Well I can see there are many here that havent had many problems with the HR20. Obviously those are the happy supporters that we're hearing from. I'm a bit surprised however. This is the first place I've seen that actually has more people feeling the HR20 is better than Tivo. 

I had the HR10-250 until I had the bright notion to upgrade to Directvs new HD package. A decision that I've come to regret. I'm on my third HR20 since Sept. (Oh and BTW, when you do replace an HR20 they dont send you a new one). But these units have done very quirkie things. Like changing channels and there is nothing there. Like a freezing picture that will only unfreeze after channeling up then back down. Like Selecting a program in my playlist and there is nothing there. Like Selecting a program in my playlist and there is nothing there but you can hear the audio running in the background. Like when live TV starts skip, skip, skip and will only stop after I channel up then back down. Directv has sent out service techs. Can't find the problem.

Yes, I miss my HR10-250.


----------



## rickmeoff

Mark Lopez said:


> Funny though, that for a unit that people claim is so flawless, there needed to be a national release of a fix. <shrug>
> 
> I know some will disagree, but I have never bashed Tivo.


nope. never.




Mark Lopez said:


> All I've ever done in these threads is point out that the HR2x is not as bad as some claim. My stance has always been look at all of the *facts* and then make your own choice. Some others however think that their way is the only way. I challenge anyone to find any post where I either told people to stay away from Tivo or told them that the HR2x was the only way to go.


bait is firmly on the hook, as the bobber floats calmly on the waters surface thus far undisturbed.

suddenly, a ripple in the water appears..........


----------



## tlrowley

Where do I sign up to get the software that never misses programs? 

I've had an HR20-700 since August, and I've missed at least a dozen programs in that time - one last night. I actually know why it missed the program last night, but I want to know why it was still showing up in the ToDo list a half hour before it should have recorded, it was never flagged as "will not record". Then, in the history list about why it failed simply says "unexpected error" instead of the more accurate "trying to record 3 things at once".

In the category of not learning from my mistakes, I got an HR21 from Costco yesterday, and missed a recording last night - the history list simply says "partial", but there is no partial recording showing up in the program list - and no, it didn't reboot overnight (blue light ring is still off). It wouldn't be quite so frustrating if the history provided decent, accurate information.

I still have one HR10 working, but when the second HR10 died (disk problems), I tried to live with the HR20 alone - that lasted about 2 days - I found a good deal on a S3 Tivo - the OTA is excellent here, and 90&#37; of my recording is OTA.

D* has certainly updated the software, and I commend them for that, but I wish the HR2* simply recorded what it was asked to, or explain accurately why it didn't.


----------



## gio1269

tlrowley said:


> Where do I sign up to get the software that never misses programs?
> 
> I've had an HR20-700 since August, and I've missed at least a dozen programs in that time - one last night. I actually know why it missed the program last night, but I want to know why it was still showing up in the ToDo list a half hour before it should have recorded, it was never flagged as "will not record". Then, in the history list about why it failed simply says "unexpected error" instead of the more accurate "trying to record 3 things at once".


Where are the PERFECT TiVos that justapixel, RS4, nrc and others own?

This message board was made for HR10 complaints as the HR20/21 board on dbstalk. 99.9%$of happy customers are quest. 99,9% of unhappy complain.

Look tivo lemmings claim tivo is perfect. HR20 Army HR20/21 are the best since sliced white bread. Then others like me are in midfdle with some brains!


----------



## HazelW

tlrowley said:


> Where do I sign up to get the software that never misses programs?
> 
> I've had an HR20-700 since August, and I've missed at least a dozen programs in that time - one last night. I actually know why it missed the program last night, but I want to know why it was still showing up in the ToDo list a half hour before it should have recorded, it was never flagged as "will not record". Then, in the history list about why it failed simply says "unexpected error" instead of the more accurate "trying to record 3 things at once".
> 
> In the category of not learning from my mistakes, I got an HR21 from Costco yesterday, and missed a recording last night - the history list simply says "partial", but there is no partial recording showing up in the program list - and no, it didn't reboot overnight (blue light ring is still off). It wouldn't be quite so frustrating if the history provided decent, accurate information.
> 
> I still have one HR10 working, but when the second HR10 died (disk problems), I tried to live with the HR20 alone - that lasted about 2 days - I found a good deal on a S3 Tivo - the OTA is excellent here, and 90% of my recording is OTA.
> 
> D* has certainly updated the software, and I commend them for that, but I wish the HR2* simply recorded what it was asked to, or explain accurately why it didn't.


Does the HR20/21 allow you to schedule 3 programs at once, even though it can't do it?


----------



## pendragn

HazelW said:


> Does the HR20/21 allow you to schedule 3 programs at once, even though it can't do it?


I believe it will let you schedule it but it will alert you. One vast improvement of the HR20 over the TiVo is that shows that will be recorded and ones that will not are shown in the same screen. That way you can see immediately that something isn't going to be recorded. On the TiVo it's kind of hidden in the "History" which isn't a very intuitive place to look for something that hasn't happened yet.

tk


----------



## tlrowley

pendragn said:


> I believe it will let you schedule it but it will alert you. One vast improvement of the HR20 over the TiVo is that shows that will be recorded and ones that will not are shown in the same screen. That way you can see immediately that something isn't going to be recorded. On the TiVo it's kind of hidden in the "History" which isn't a very intuitive place to look for something that hasn't happened yet.
> 
> tk


See, that's my complaint - it didn't alert me. Up until the programs started to record, my ToDo list showed 3 items recording at 8pm. Then, at 8, one failed - as it should - but there was a terribly cryptic message left in the history. History items might be hidden on the TiVo, but they're not nearly as cryptic as "unexpected error". Why not say "higher priorlty conflict"? Why let me think that it's going to record my program at 8 if there's a conflict?


----------



## gio1269

tlrowley said:


> See, that's my complaint - it didn't alert me. Up until the programs started to record, my ToDo list showed 3 items recording at 8pm. Then, at 8, one failed - as it should - but there was a terribly cryptic message left in the history. History items might be hidden on the TiVo, but they're not nearly as cryptic as "unexpected error". Why not say "higher priorlty conflict"? Why let me think that it's going to record my program at 8 if there's a conflict?


Huh? If I set 3 programs to record, a message comes up and say scheduling conflict. Then you see a circle with a x that appears to be broken/cracked (if you know what I mean). This will be in the to do list. The message will come up during scheduling as you do it.


----------



## tlrowley

Yes, that would happen, but these were existing series links, one of which was changed (I added padding on the end). I had a program listed in the ToDo from 7-8:05 and 2 listed starting at 8. One of the 8pm programs failed, I certainly would expect it to, but it was listed as scheduled to record until 8, at which point it failed with the totally useless "unexpected error" message left in the history. I'm not upset that it failed, I understand that there are only 2 tuners. The thing that bugs me is that I forgot I padded the 7pm program, I'm obsessive about the ToDo list, and I saw that everything was listed when I checked at about 7:30. I understand why it failed, I'm ticked that it didn't let me know that I had a 3-way conflict and that it left a cryptic message in the history.


----------



## cowboys2002

tlrowley said:


> Yes, that would happen, but these were existing series links, one of which was changed (I added padding on the end). I had a program listed in the ToDo from 7-8:05 and 2 listed starting at 8. One of the 8pm programs failed, I certainly would expect it to, but it was listed as scheduled to record until 8, at which point it failed with the totally useless "unexpected error" message left in the history. I'm not upset that it failed, I understand that there are only 2 tuners. The thing that bugs me is that I forgot I padded the 7pm program, I'm obsessive about the ToDo list, and I saw that everything was listed when I checked at about 7:30. I understand why it failed, I'm ticked that it didn't let me know that I had a 3-way conflict and that it left a cryptic message in the history.


I guess what I am missing here is that if your are as anal as you day about your todo list, you didn't notice you had a 3-way conflict?

Just saying.....


----------



## newsposter

HazelW said:


> Does the HR20/21 allow you to schedule 3 programs at once, even though it can't do it?


upon using my HR20 the 1st day I immediately set up a bunch of SLs...it let me do it and was lightning fast!!! However i realized a day later there were a bunch of conflicts as the HR20 caught up. So if you do things by batch, u could find some serious conflicts. ANd you need to babysit a bit after that

personally i prefer the please wait of tivo so i can set and forget and know right away.

but if you just do 1 add of a program to HR20, it does let you know right away


----------



## Mark Lopez

newsposter said:


> personally i prefer the please wait of tivo so i can set and forget and know right away.


Great if you have a bunch to set up and don't mind killing a half hour waiting. And if a conflict does arise, good luck trying to over ride the one you want without the hassles of changing priority (more waiting) or changing the one of them (yet more 'please wait').

As I transfered my SPs from my HR10 to HR20, I swear it took like an hour to cancel about 25 of them on the HR10. Please wait - please wait - please wait, even when there weren't any upcoming episodes.


----------



## Mark Lopez

rickmeoff said:


> nope. never.
> 
> 
> bait is firmly on the hook, as the bobber floats calmly on the waters surface thus far undisturbed.
> 
> suddenly, a ripple in the water appears..........


Yep, right on schedule. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black



rickmeoff said:


> ....it seems you just wanna argue for the sake of arguing


----------



## newsposter

Mark Lopez said:


> Great if you have a bunch to set up and don't mind killing a half hour waiting.


half hour today waiting means it's positively going thru or needs attention right away. If something is recording, chances are it means i want to watch it and it's important to me, I dont mind the please wait. Sure beats having to use my memory to remember 'oh boy i better check the dvr to see if it found any conflicts' a day later. not everyone has a great memory or time to devote to dvr management.


----------



## pendragn

newsposter said:


> half hour today waiting means it's positively going thru or needs attention right away. If something is recording, chances are it means i want to watch it and it's important to me, I dont mind the please wait. Sure beats having to use my memory to remember 'oh boy i better check the dvr to see if it found any conflicts' a day later. not everyone has a great memory or time to devote to dvr management.


I got my first TiVo in January of 2001. I've owned Series 1s, Series2, DirecTV Series and an HR10-250. Probably 10 units in all. I got my first HR20 in October. Having used both, I can say that I like the way the HR20 does it better. It takes less of my time to add some recordings and then go back in a couple of hours and check the ToDo less. That's much less frustrating than plodding through the interface and waiting. For me at least.

tk


----------



## tlrowley

Okay, I checked my ToDO list for next Wednesday, and I'm seeing exactly the same behavior - 3 things are scheduled to record at 8pm - well, 1 from 7-8:05 (I have padded by 5 minutes) and 2 shows that start at 8. My HR20 requires a lot more babysitting than my HR10 (or S3). What's the point of a ToDo list if it's just going to fail at the very last second?

I'm going to move this to its own thread on dbstalk.


----------



## shibby191

tlrowley said:


> Okay, I checked my ToDO list for next Wednesday, and I'm seeing exactly the same behavior - 3 things are scheduled to record at 8pm - well, 1 from 7-8:05 (I have padded by 5 minutes) and 2 shows that start at 8. My HR20 requires a lot more babysitting than my HR10 (or S3). What's the point of a ToDo list if it's just going to fail at the very last second?
> 
> I'm going to move this to its own thread on dbstalk.


Yes, I'd suggest moving it to DBSTalk where the experts can take a look. And the DirecTV dev's do monitor that site for bugs and issues.

But I will note that since the HR20/21 has the feature that it will only take up one tuner for overlapping shows *on the same channel* you can indeed have 3 or even 4 things recording at once if they are on the same channels.

In other words if your 7pm show and one of the 8pm shows are on the same channel they can overlap each other via padding and only take one tuner leaving the other tuner free for a 3rd show. It is a very nice feature of the HR20/21 series that gets overlooked by many. It's probably my #1 favorite feature.

Not sure if this is the case for you or note but thought I'd note it. Doesn't explain why one of your 8pm's didn't record but...


----------



## Mark Lopez

tlrowley said:


> Okay, I checked my ToDO list for next Wednesday, and I'm seeing exactly the same behavior - 3 things are scheduled to record at 8pm - *well, 1 from 7-8:05 (I have padded by 5 minutes) and 2 shows that start at 8*. My HR20 requires a lot more babysitting than my HR10 (or S3). What's the point of a ToDo list if it's just going to fail at the very last second?
> 
> I'm going to move this to its own thread on dbstalk.


As noted above, if the padded show is on the same channel as one of the 8:00PM shows, then you have no conflict.

And in any case how dioes that require any more baybysitting than the HR10? If you have a conflict arise, you still have manually check to see ahead of time. What I would like to see (on either unit) is some sort of non intrusive pop-up (like on the menu screen) when a conflict arises telling you that you have a conflict.


----------



## Sir_winealot

rickmeoff said:


> nope. never.
> 
> 
> bait is firmly on the hook, as the bobber floats calmly on the waters surface thus far undisturbed.
> 
> suddenly, a ripple in the water appears..........


Ah ....I get it ....the troll awaits under the bridge, patiently listening for the "clippity-cloppity" of hooves on the wooden planks above, ready to pounce on those unsuspecting billy goats in order to prevent passage. 

It's a total waste of time to even _respond_ to one who "never gets it (which IMO is intentional as, no one is really _that_ naive)," always thinks they're right ...while only hearing only what they want to hear ....and _always_ has to get in the last word.

Thus the limited reponses by other members who have apparently realized before I that responding is tantamount to running in quicksand.

Several of us must learn to Just Say No.


----------



## tlrowley

Mark Lopez said:


> As noted above, if the padded show is on the same channel as one of the 8:00PM shows, then you have no conflict.
> 
> And in any case how dioes that require any more baybysitting than the HR10? If you have a conflict arise, you still have manually check to see ahead of time. What I would like to see (on either unit) is some sort of non intrusive pop-up (like on the menu screen) when a conflict arises telling you that you have a conflict.


As I posted over in dbstalk, these are on 3 separate channels, I do have a conflict. You may not want to admit it, Mark, but the HR20 has a bug, here.

The babysitting I'm referring to is the fact that although the HR20 tells me that all three programs will record, and told me that this week as well, I know that they will not record properly. I have to watch out for that - the HR20 is not doing its job correctly in marking the conflict in the ToDo list.

I don't mind having to check that the conflict is there, but that information should be available in the ToDo list and it's not there. And I would really appreciate it if the failed recording said something useful, like "conflict", rather than "unexpected error".


----------



## tlrowley

cowboys2002 said:


> I guess what I am missing here is that if your are as anal as you day about your todo list, you didn't notice you had a 3-way conflict?
> 
> Just saying.....


It was hidden by the fact that one of the programs was padded. No conflict was ever reported to me. I am anal about the ToDo list - in this case, it was useless.

I guess I not only have to be anal, but have a flawless memory, too, because the tools that D* provides me are not reliable.


----------



## cowboys2002

tlrowley said:


> It was hidden by the fact that one of the programs was padded. No conflict was ever reported to me. I am anal about the ToDo list - in this case, it was useless.
> 
> I guess I not only have to be anal, but have a flawless memory, too, because the tools that D* provides me are not reliable.


So are you saying youe would rather the "overlap" on the same channel not be there?

And, if I am scheduling 2 or more shows on the same night and time, I sue different DVR's to avoid conflicts.

A 2 tuner device can't record 3 channels at once. It isn't designed to do so.

When I have accidentally scheduled 3 things, I get a warning/alert and something doesn't record unless "I" intervene. I suspect the DVR is recordeing the first 2 programs.


----------



## tlrowley

There was no overlap on the same channel, the three programs are on 3 different channels. 

Program A - 7-8pm (scheduled, padded to 8:05) - channel 1
Program B - 8-9pm - channel 2
Program C - 8-9pm - channel 3

Thats what appears in my ToDo list, at this minute. All of them show up in the ToDo list, and in the guide, with the normal "RRR" designation. That's the way it will stay, until 8pm on Wednesday, when Program C will fail to record - understandably - with "unexpected error" - less understandable.

There is a bug in the HR20 that is allowing this. It was there this past Wednesday, and appears for next Wednesday - it is repeatable. I don't expect a 2-tuner device to record three things at the same time - I'm not an idiot. I just want the machine to report a conflict accurately. How can I resolve a conflict if I don't know it exists - that's the HR20's job.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Sir_winealot said:


> It's a total waste of time to even _respond_ to one who "never gets it ......


But yet you still do. 



Sir_winealot said:


> ......(which IMO is intentional as, no one is really _that_ naive)," always thinks they're right ...while only hearing only what they want to hear ....and _always_ has to get in the last word.


But oddly it is the Tivo zealots like you and a few others that are the ones that think you are the ones that are only right. As I mentioned above, I have always said people are free to make their own choice once they have all of the facts and not just the FUD spread by a few. Again, I challenge you or anyone else to find any post where I said people should avoid Tivo or that the HR2x was the only way to go. But of course you can't, because I never have. But the mission of the Tivo Army is to try and discredit anyone who does not agree with the 'Tivo way' by whatever means possible, including fabricationg lies about people. And as far as getting in the last word, I also find it odd that those who make these accusation are the same ones who keep fueling the fire. <shrug>



Sir_winealot said:


> Ah ....I get it ....the troll awaits under the bridge...


Yep, perfect description of the Tivo lemming crowd.


----------



## midas

You guys remind me of the two guys in a bar fighting over some hot chick. Meanwhile the hot chick left with someone else about 20 minutes ago.


----------



## Jon J

Speaking of hot chicks, wonder why Ann hasn't dropped by since early in the thread after starting the thread.


----------



## shibby191

newsposter said:


> upon using my HR20 the 1st day I immediately set up a bunch of SLs...it let me do it and was lightning fast!!! However i realized a day later there were a bunch of conflicts as the HR20 caught up. So if you do things by batch, u could find some serious conflicts. ANd you need to babysit a bit after that
> 
> personally i prefer the please wait of tivo so i can set and forget and know right away.
> 
> but if you just do 1 add of a program to HR20, it does let you know right away


Maybe this has been "fixed" since you first got your HR20 because I just ran a few tests for someone at DBSTalk and when I tried to setup 3 series links that conflicted, upon setting up the 3rd one I got the conflict screen. So perhaps this isn't an issue anymore.


----------



## RS4

Mark Lopez said:


> ...What I would like to see (on either unit) is some sort of non intrusive pop-up (like on the menu screen) when a conflict arises telling you that you have a conflict.


ML, I think this is a terrific idea. I know on the Tivo, I occasionally see a message pop up, such as the other day when it reported it found a new channel for me. Why not also include potential conflicts into the message area or in a pop up?

As for setting up the Season Pass, I want to know right away if there is a conflict and don't mind waiting a few seconds for notice, so I prefer the Tivo method. I now have 36 SP's on one of my new Tivo HD's. When I run into a conflict, I make a note of the show and go enter it into the other THD, then watch it on MRV.

Being able to add a large hard-drive makes using a dvr an awesome way of watching TV. I love all of the variety that we have when sitting down to watch something. In fact, the other day, my wife said "we'll never get through all of that" and after all, that's the whole point isn't it - having something to watch that you are interested in when you want to.


----------



## Scott D

Mark Lopez said:


> Being serious for a moment, what is there really left to talk about with the HR10?  The bottom line is it's mostly obsolete. As I stated earlier, if there were no discussions about the HR20 vs HR10, there would not be much to talk about. Even the upcoming 'update' for the HR10 doesn't even add anything. All it does is fix the random reboot bug. Funny though, that for a unit that people claim is so flawless, there needed to be a national release of a fix. <shrug>


I think the reason why is because of the transfer to the HR20. They were abandoning the TiVo during that time, thus more errors.


----------



## Scooter

midas said:


> You guys remind me of the two guys in a bar fighting over some hot chick. Meanwhile the hot chick left with someone else about 20 minutes ago.


Make that 20 weeks ago.  They have been going at it for a long time!

Scooter


----------



## newsposter

midas said:


> You guys remind me of the two guys in a bar fighting over some hot chick. Meanwhile the hot chick left with someone else about 20 minutes ago.


if it gives them purpose in life i say 2 pts to them. If however they have other meaningful things in their lives, i agree they follow the hot chick out


----------



## justapixel

Scooter said:


> I
> 
> Justapixel, I realize it may be too late now, but you might want to see if there are firmware updates available for your TV.


Bingo.

I wish I could apologize to Direct TV but I can't. They came out, unfortunately when only my husband was home. (Also unfortunately, the other night he was in a car accident that totalled his car and was home for the day to rest.) Direct TV wase supposed to show up at 4:00, when I would be home from work, but they showed up at 3:00.

My husband doesn't understand technology. He explained our audio problem. They tested it with a new box and it didn't fix it. They suggested it was a problem with our TV. They put our old box back, and left the other one here for us to send back.

However, my husband never addressed all the other problems - the continual mismatch between sound and picture; the chronic pixelization in EVERY show, audio drop outs, particularly at the end of the show and the independent decision of the box to not record our shows, etc.

Anyway, we upgraded the firmware on the TV and once again, our sound is back.

Unfortunately, all of the other problems remain. And _that_ I know is the HR20s fault, because my TiVo is still behaving flawlessly.

I do have another box sitting here that I am supposed to send back. Is there a way to activate it myself and test that one? Because, while I now have sound, all of the other problems still remain and my box is still a POS.

I also am having billing problems. We are starting to document everything in case we need to opt out. When I bought the new TV, I was torn between staying with direct TV and TiVo and called retention. They offered me a deal, but the bill has been wrong and each time I call, they say they'll fix it and they don't. Last time, they said that we could just subtract the amount we don't owe and they'd fix it for last time. This time they say we have to pay it, but they will start our one year of free HD in March. Assuming that happens, I now have to pay attention and make sure it actually last through March as they say.

They offered me 24 months of free DVR fees, but they insist that the only offered me one year. I wrote it down as the guy made the offer, but they won't budge. I'm not exactly sure what the DVR fee is either, as I have two $4.99 fees on my bill - I have three DVRs now - one HR20 and two TiVos with lifetime. The $4.99 fee is for mirroring and she said I had to pay two of them. What is the DVR fee? I've not seen that on my bill yet, not even as a credit.

Those of you who were wondering where I was: I was eating lunch and making love, of course. 

By the way, to the guy who said I posted on DBS talk at 11:30, you are sadly mistaken. It was 8:30.

Oh gosh, you did know there were different time zones, right?  

(Oh, and thank you, Jon.  )


----------



## coachO

I quit reading all the posts when it moved to rants. Back to the original topic; my HR20 locked up again last night and did not record.

I wanted to say that I feel more confident with my HR10 than I do with the HR20. I don't hate it yet, but you could say it is appropriately treated like the ugly step sister.....


----------



## gio1269

justapixel said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I wish I could apologize to Direct TV but I can't. They came out, unfortunately when only my husband was home. (Also unfortunately, the other night he was in a car accident that totalled his car and was home for the day to rest.) Direct TV wase supposed to show up at 4:00, when I would be home from work, but they showed up at 3:00.
> 
> My husband doesn't understand technology. He explained our audio problem. They tested it with a new box and it didn't fix it. They suggested it was a problem with our TV. They put our old box back, and left the other one here for us to send back.
> 
> However, my husband never addressed all the other problems - the continual mismatch between sound and picture; the chronic pixelization in EVERY show, audio drop outs, particularly at the end of the show and the independent decision of the box to not record our shows, etc.
> 
> Anyway, we upgraded the firmware on the TV and once again, our sound is back.
> 
> Unfortunately, all of the other problems remain. And _that_ I know is the HR20s fault, because my TiVo is still behaving flawlessly.
> 
> I do have another box sitting here that I am supposed to send back. Is there a way to activate it myself and test that one? Because, while I now have sound, all of the other problems still remain and my box is still a POS.
> 
> I also am having billing problems. We are starting to document everything in case we need to opt out. When I bought the new TV, I was torn between staying with direct TV and TiVo and called retention. They offered me a deal, but the bill has been wrong and each time I call, they say they'll fix it and they don't. Last time, they said that we could just subtract the amount we don't owe and they'd fix it for last time. This time they say we have to pay it, but they will start our one year of free HD in March. Assuming that happens, I now have to pay attention and make sure it actually last through March as they say.
> 
> They offered me 24 months of free DVR fees, but they insist that the only offered me one year. I wrote it down as the guy made the offer, but they won't budge. I'm not exactly sure what the DVR fee is either, as I have two $4.99 fees on my bill - I have three DVRs now - one HR20 and two TiVos with lifetime. The $4.99 fee is for mirroring and she said I had to pay two of them. What is the DVR fee? I've not seen that on my bill yet, not even as a credit.
> 
> Those of you who were wondering where I was: I was eating lunch and making love, of course.
> 
> By the way, to the guy who said I posted on DBS talk at 11:30, you are sadly mistaken. It was 8:30.
> 
> Oh gosh, you did know there were different time zones, right?
> 
> (Oh, and thank you, Jon.  )


Wow so after you ripped D* it was your TV  . You just assumed it was the HR20 because your a Tivo fan...
BTW those Westinghouse TVs suck!

Now, take the card form the bad HR20 and swap it with the other one. See what happens. Are the picture problems form OTA or SAT?

I had similar picture issues with the HR10 and the HR20 with SAT and OTA a while back.

The HR10 still has them and the HR20 was fixed like last year. I only get pix issues during rain storms now. Maybe every once in a while the SAT feed gets them. But very brief.

I glad your sound was fixedand it was NOT the HR20. That's good news for all.


----------



## shibby191

As for pixelization since you see it on the HR20 and not the HR10 then there are a couple easy troubleshooting steps you can do.

Is it a bad HDMI cable and/or bad HDMI input on the TV?
For this simply unplug your HDMI cable from the back of the HR10 and hook up to the HR20. Now the HR20 is using the exact same cables and input on the TV.
Does the pixelization go away?

If so then you know the cause.
If not then try a component connection to the TV instead. Does the pixelization go away?
If so then you may have a had HDMI on the HR20.
If not then you just may have a bad HR20.

So then swap out with the one the tech left and you should be good to go unless you have really bad luck.


----------



## justapixel

It's not the HDMI input on the TV as that was taken care of on the firmware upgrade.

It's not the HDMI cable as it has been replaced.

I don't have an HR10, I have a D*TiVo and a HR20.

The problems I encountered the first day I had my HR20 and which remain are:

1. Freezing
2. Audio drop out at the end of shows.
3. About once a week I will go to watch recorded shows. All I see is a black screen. I have to reboot the HR20. (This takes 20 minutes, which means if I am recording something else, I have to wait.)
4. Mismatch between audio and video - the lips aren't synched with the voices.
5. Hasn't recorded shows I request - even though I have no conflict.
6. Random reboot.

So, if that sounds like it could be HDMI to you, please let me know. If you have any suggestions for fixing it, let me know that too.

The problem that was not with the HR20 was:

7. The complete lack of audio. That was my TV which was a firmware upgrade and solved the problem.

Yes, due to the other problems, I assumed it was part of the whole.

I don't think my TV is responsible for a blank screen when I go to play a recording though.

Some of you need to leave your emotions out of this. I am relating my experiences and mine alone. I never said that mine were universal. When I make my purchases, I like to read the reviews and see what other people think. When I travel, I read travelocity. When I check for a product, I check epinions, etc.

When I read the things people post, I put it into persepective - I have the understanding that just because one person has had a bad experience, that it's universal for the entire population.

I expect other people will do the same when I relate my experiences and I'm mystified why some of you seem to take it so personally.

There are many people who were in my position: having to decide between staying with TiVo, a product they liked, or staying with Direct TV, a service they liked. I shared my experiences so those people could see what person's experience. I never meant or intended for mine to be gospel - just a voice that they could listen to or discard. Some of you may be right - staying with TiVo and going with Comcast might have been equally problematic. But, I didn't, so I am stuck with what - *based on my experience*- has been a POS DVR.

YMMV

I'm extremely happy that many of you have not experienced the problems I have. But, you sound like the rabid fanboys you accuse me of being when you attack me for sharing my experiences just because it differs from yours.


----------



## magnus

Yep, it really seems that the fanboys here somehow won't let go of the fact that each person is allowed to have their opinion. I think your opinion and experience are helpful to others and might help them with their decision... that they will eventually need to make.

Is content king or the device? Is content worth the charges and commitments? In the end.... it's just TV.



justapixel said:


> I'm extremely happy that many of you have not experienced the problems I have. But, you sound like the rabid fanboys you accuse me of being when you attack me for sharing my experiences just because it differs from yours.


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> 1. Freezing
> 2. Audio drop out at the end of shows.
> 3. About once a week I will go to watch recorded shows. All I see is a black screen. I have to reboot the HR20. (This takes 20 minutes, which means if I am recording something else, I have to wait.)
> 4. Mismatch between audio and video - the lips aren't synched with the voices.
> 5. Hasn't recorded shows I request - even though I have no conflict.
> 6. Random reboot.


Number 1, 3, 5 and 6 all sound like it's a bad box to me.

2 I've never heard of.

4 is an issue on some of the HD channels such as Discovery HD from time to time. However one must remember that audio and lip sync have been issues with HD for 8+ years and long before DirecTV ever had any HD. I've seen it OTA on all kinds of receivers and you see it also on cable and Dish. A lot depends on the channel itself. Not saying that's the problem you are having but since you're new to HD I thought I'd give you some history.

Have you tried optical for your sound and not HDMI? A LOT of lip sync problems are simply due to using HDMI audio. I'd highly suggest running all audio directly to your AV receiver and not use HDMI for it. HDMI audio has issues on some TVs and seeing that your TV had a firmware update just to address HDMI audio makes me think yours might be one of them.

If you have component input on your TV then please try component for video (this is still full HD) and optical for audio and see if some of these problems go away. Seriously, some TVs just have bad HDMI implementations. Again, not trying to blame your TV but these are things to try and it has helped many a person with problems. As soon as they quit using HDMI their problems went away.

One thing of note on audio dropouts: Are you one to watch live tv but in the buffer and then catch up to "live"? There is a long outstanding bug on the HR20 that if you are in the buffer and not the recording and catch up to live you may get audio dropouts every few seconds. The key is to not catch all the way up to live. Hit pause for say 10 seconds and then resume playing and all will be fine. They have improved this issue greatly but it still happens from time to time. If I ever catch up to live I just pause for a few seconds and I never see audio dropouts because of it.


----------



## Scooter

Ann, have you noticed any messages on your screen saying searching for satellite or message 721 in the past? If you are seeing heavy pixelation that is usually a sign of a poor signal. From what I've learned, the new MPEG4 channels are pretty finicky about good signal quality all the way from the dish to your receiver. Every connection between the satellite and the TV have be good or things can get screwed up - more so than a regular old standard definition setup. IIRC, from your installation thread, they did run new lines from the dish to your TV, but did you use good cables from the wall outlet to the receiver? I would hope that they provided decent ones for you. It's important that you are not getting intermittent signal losses to your HR20. I know it's a long shot, but if you are having signal losses, that that could be screwing up some recordings. Perhaps you should make sure that all of the coax connections are secure on the receiver and at the wall outlet.
Oh, I've been having troubles with one of the tuners on my sunroom HR20 lately. Seemed like I could make the problem go away by moving the cable, but sometimes it wouldn't help. Turns out the problem was a bad wall jack. It was never a problem with my D-TiVo, but my HR21 hated it.

BTW, the lip sync issues are common to both HD DVRs and regular HD receivers. From what I understand, it's not the HR20's fault.

Good luck with all of this stuff! I'm sorry to see you are having such a terrible time with this.

Scooter


----------



## tlrowley

Re: audio drop out at end of show:

shibby191 may not have heard of it, but it's talked about over on dbstalk.

I'm sorry you're having problems, Ann, I know how frustrating that can be. I also find it ironic that folks who take umbrage at you calling your HR21 a POS are free to let you know that your TV sucks 

I'm in the camp that thinks you may have a bad box, you certainly wouldn't be the first, unfortunately. My box is working fine, it seems, it's the software that I think is a POS. I honestly can't say whether that's a better or worse situation to be in.


----------



## gio1269

justapixel said:


> It's not the HDMI input on the TV as that was taken care of on the firmware upgrade.
> 
> It's not the HDMI cable as it has been replaced.
> 
> I don't have an HR10, I have a D*TiVo and a HR20.
> 
> The problems I encountered the first day I had my HR20 and which remain are:
> 
> 1. Freezing
> 2. Audio drop out at the end of shows.
> 3. About once a week I will go to watch recorded shows. All I see is a black screen. I have to reboot the HR20. (This takes 20 minutes, which means if I am recording something else, I have to wait.)
> 4. Mismatch between audio and video - the lips aren't synched with the voices.
> 5. Hasn't recorded shows I request - even though I have no conflict.
> 6. Random reboot.
> 
> So, if that sounds like it could be HDMI to you, please let me know. If you have any suggestions for fixing it, let me know that too.
> 
> The problem that was not with the HR20 was:
> 
> 7. The complete lack of audio. That was my TV which was a firmware upgrade and solved the problem.
> 
> Yes, due to the other problems, I assumed it was part of the whole.
> 
> I don't think my TV is responsible for a blank screen when I go to play a recording though.
> 
> Some of you need to leave your emotions out of this. I am relating my experiences and mine alone. I never said that mine were universal. When I make my purchases, I like to read the reviews and see what other people think. When I travel, I read travelocity. When I check for a product, I check epinions, etc.
> 
> When I read the things people post, I put it into persepective - I have the understanding that just because one person has had a bad experience, that it's universal for the entire population.
> 
> I expect other people will do the same when I relate my experiences and I'm mystified why some of you seem to take it so personally.
> 
> There are many people who were in my position: having to decide between staying with TiVo, a product they liked, or staying with Direct TV, a service they liked. I shared my experiences so those people could see what person's experience. I never meant or intended for mine to be gospel - just a voice that they could listen to or discard. Some of you may be right - staying with TiVo and going with Comcast might have been equally problematic. But, I didn't, so I am stuck with what - *based on my experience*- has been a POS DVR.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> I'm extremely happy that many of you have not experienced the problems I have. But, you sound like the rabid fanboys you accuse me of being when you attack me for sharing my experiences just because it differs from yours.


Try the other HR20. That just might be a bad unit, that's all. It happens.

I have a D* Tivo as well and that's box is just simply GREAT!

I thought you had an HR10 at some point. So I guess you have missed all the great fun with that *TIVO* unit.

Look, get a HR20 that's not broken like the one you have, then give an honest opinion in a few weeks. You MIGHT be surprised if you are not TOTALLY hooked on the Tivo GUI.

Sorry, but when a Tivo MOD comes here and just rips the HR20 it appears to most as your juts a Tivo Lemming or Sheep.

That's why us "fan boys" react. It seems like most Tivo Lemming will NOT give the HR20 it's due, credit or a shot. That's just stupid IMO,.

its a DVR and they basically ALL do the same damn thing. RECORD a program.
BOTH due this well with one having a preferred GUI and features over the other.

Yes, the first HR20 were rushed to the market way to fast and that's why I held out.

But MOST HR20 are running really well. I know close 100 or so people personally that have switched or finally got a DVR and all have been very happy. Is that typical of the WHOLE D* Sub base? Who REALLY know but D*.

These boards really don't mean squat!


----------



## gio1269

tlrowley said:


> Re: audio drop out at end of show:
> 
> shibby191 may not have heard of it, but it's talked about over on dbstalk.
> 
> I'm sorry you're having problems, Ann, I know how frustrating that can be. I also find it ironic that folks who take umbrage at you calling your HR21 a POS are free to let you know that your TV sucks
> 
> I'm in the camp that thinks you may have a bad box, you certainly wouldn't be the first, unfortunately. My box is working fine, it seems, it's the software that I think is a POS. I honestly can't say whether that's a better or worse situation to be in.


Find some reviews and stuff. Those Westinghouse TV are not rated very high. But they are decent for the price and allows folks to get a LCD at a decent price. I mean like Consumer reports.


----------



## justapixel

Now we are getting helpful, thank you.

Of course I'm a fan of TiVo, that's why became a mod. But, I also said - in this thread - that I really am more a fan of the DVR concept rather than one particular company. I got my TiVo when there were only TiVo and replay TV, and became a fan of digital recorders - but I wouldn't say I'm a fanboy. I can use anything if it works and I said there here. If it records my shows so I don't have to worry about them - the interface isn't that important to me. 

Since I do have this extra box sitting here - what would I need to do to activate it and see if it works better on my POS TV?  (Besides take a day off from work and watch everything on my old one before I have to send it back, that is?  )

To answer some questions: 

I never watch live TV so that isn't the issue. 

I haven't seen "message 721" or searching for satellite. The pixellation happens each show, sometimes twice, and it last a few seconds. It seems mostly green. It always seems to happen at a plot climax - how does it know??? 

I don't know what kind of wires they ran. But, I'm just about to go back and tighten everything.

I'll check that thread about audio drop out at the end of the show too.

I really don't want to have them come out here again, but if they have to I'm off for a week at the end of this months. I'd rather do it myself at this point.


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> I haven't seen "message 721" or searching for satellite. The pixellation happens each show, sometimes twice, and it last a few seconds. It seems mostly green. It always seems to happen at a plot climax - how does it know???


There are several things that can cause this. Anywhere from a bad dish alignment to a bad unit. Does it happen on specific channels? Can you rewind and does it do it in the same spot? Are you using OTA and does it happen on those too? If so, then I would say bad unit. But if it's just sat channels, then it could be a bad alignment or a bad BBC (those little black boxes they connected to the end of the sat coax cables behind the box). Heck, you could even have a bad multi-switch in the dish. Your best bet would be to connect up the other unit and try it out for a while. I would also try the old unit as is, on another TV (or use something other than HDMI) replaying just the parts that have the problem to eliminate the TV and the possibility that it's an HDMI problem. My HR10 that had the bad HDMI card would do a similar thing (green pixalation) when it went bad. I just ended up using component and the problem went away.


----------



## Scooter

Hmm.. Mostly green pixelation seems odd to me. I've never seen that happen with a poor coax connection or a bad satellite signal. Usually it's all sorts of purty colors. 

This sure sounds like a hardware problem to me. I'd be swapping out that HR20 for the other one you have and see how it goes. If that doesn't work, start swapping out cables, the TV or whatever you can. Pretty much like Mark suggests.

Scooter


----------



## jimb726

justapixel said:


> Now we are getting helpful, thank you.
> 
> Of course I'm a fan of TiVo, that's why became a mod. But, I also said - in this thread - that I really am more a fan of the DVR concept rather than one particular company. I got my TiVo when there were only TiVo and replay TV, and became a fan of digital recorders - but I wouldn't say I'm a fanboy. I can use anything if it works and I said there here. If it records my shows so I don't have to worry about them - the interface isn't that important to me.
> 
> Since I do have this extra box sitting here - what would I need to do to activate it and see if it works better on my POS TV?  (Besides take a day off from work and watch everything on my old one before I have to send it back, that is?  )
> 
> To answer some questions:
> 
> I never watch live TV so that isn't the issue.
> 
> I haven't seen "message 721" or searching for satellite. The pixellation happens each show, sometimes twice, and it last a few seconds. It seems mostly green. It always seems to happen at a plot climax - how does it know???
> 
> I don't know what kind of wires they ran. But, I'm just about to go back and tighten everything.
> 
> I'll check that thread about audio drop out at the end of the show too.
> 
> I really don't want to have them come out here again, but if they have to I'm off for a week at the end of this months. I'd rather do it myself at this point.


As far as the audio drops are concerned, the next time it happens, hit the jump back button and see if when it runs through the dialogue the second time if the drops are gone. I know that in my case when I start watching a recording from the beginning while it is recording (start watching a 9:00 show at 9:15 after the kids get put to bed) eventually I will get caught up to live TV. It is at these times that I will experience the drop out. i find that if I jump back 6 or 12 seconds, the drops are gone.

As far as activating it, if it came with a card just call them up and activate it. Especially if you are waiting for a recovery box for the other one.

Good Luck


----------



## LI-SVT

JAP
If you get a black screen on a channel change or recording press the menu button or the guide button. If the overlay shows up the TV is fine and the HR20 is not doing its job. If the screen remains black the TV may not be handshaking with the HR20 right.


----------



## coachO

Maybe I am getting closer to hating my HR20-700. Now in addition to the frozen DVR which requires resetting, it is freezing during playback. To watch a one hour show, I had to go back to list and restart the program 5 times. 

I was reading that many think it is the latest software update. It is still amazing how awesome my old SD Tivo is compared to the HR20 and even the HR10.


----------



## mp11

justapixel said:


> 1. Freezing
> 
> 
> 
> Me too (HR20)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. About once a week I will go to watch recorded shows. All I see is a black screen. I have to reboot the HR20. (This takes 20 minutes, which means if I am recording something else, I have to wait.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Has happened many times to my HR20
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Hasn't recorded shows I request - even though I have no conflict.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ditto. I have selected recorded programs for the playlist, hit the play button and I can hear the program...but no video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, if that sounds like it could be HDMI to you, please let me know. If you have any suggestions for fixing it, let me know that too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've never heard of even 1 instance where the HDMI cable corrected these problems. Bottom line is, the HR20 is a crappie unit. And Direct knows it. Are they all crappie? No. Some I'm sure are good. But what bothers me is the percentage of troubled HR20s seems way higher than what is considered normal.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mark Lopez

mp11 said:


> Bottom line is, the HR20 is a crappie unit. And Direct knows it. Are they all crappie? No. Some I'm sure are good. But what bothers me is the percentage of troubled HR20s seems way higher than what is considered normal.


Let's go back to the release of the HR10. There were many posts about bad HDMI cards (among other issues) well after it was out for a year and one would have easily found posts like this:

'Bottom line is, the HR10 is a crappie unit. And Tivo knows it. Are they all crappie? No. Some I'm sure are good. But what bothers me is the percentage of troubled HR10s seems way higher than what is considered normal.'


----------



## madbeachcat

magnus said:


> Yep, it really seems that the fanboys here somehow won't let go of the fact that each person is allowed to have their opinion. I think your opinion and experience are helpful to others and might help them with their decision... that they will eventually need to make.
> 
> Is content king or the device? Is content worth the charges and commitments? In the end.... it's just TV.


For me, it's content. After all, if the content isn't there, why even bother having a TV or receiver in the first place. Read a book. It would be cheaper, and definitely comes with less hassles.


----------



## Mark Lopez

BTW, a new update for all HR2x started rolling out yesterday. This update list looks like a just lot of stability fixes. Surprisingly, I got it last night (they usually start on the West coast and stagger it out from there). Check dbstalk for details of fixes.


----------



## Flogduh

Mark Lopez said:


> IMO the DLB issue is blown out of proportion since you 'can' get the same functionality. Perhaps a little more effort, but it's still doable.


Mark - using the logic in this statement of yours, you'd have to agree that driving nails using a rock instead of a hammer is "doable" as well, simply requiring a little more effort. (if you don't agree, come on over, I have a deck to build and you can use the rock!)

The "doable" DLB workaround is simply akin to using a tool in a manner and for a purpose for which it was never intended.

I, on the other hand, could happily let go of my HR10-250 if I could get DLBs. It makes the HR21 box complete for me. It would make the box more user friendly and the navigation is simply more intutive when watching two live shows.


----------



## rickmeoff

Flogduh said:


> Mark - using the logic in this statement of yours, you'd have to agree that driving nails using a rock instead of a hammer is "doable" as well, simply requiring a little more effort. (if you don't agree, come on over, I have a deck to build and you can use the rock!)
> 
> The "doable" DLB workaround is simply akin to using a tool in a manner and for a purpose for which it was never intended.
> 
> I, on the other hand, could happily let go of my HR10-250 if I could get DLBs. It makes the HR21 box complete for me. It would make the box more user friendly and the navigation is simply more intutive when watching two live shows.


ive tried utilizing the 'workaround,' and its a pain in the ahss. often times i like to switch between tuners and surf, so when theyre both recording something i hafta stop the recording, try and find something i want to see and then begin recording again.

more trouble than its worth, really, unless you simply wanna record 2 nfl games at once. but even that doesnt work out well when you wanna switch between more than 2.

so although i really miss dlbs, i dont even bother with the workaround and use one of the hr10's when i need dlb viewing.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Flogduh said:


> Mark - using the logic in this statement of yours, you'd have to agree that driving nails using a rock instead of a hammer is "doable" as well, simply requiring a little more effort. (if you don't agree, come on over, I have a deck to build and you can use the rock!)


Your analogy is a bit over the top. A more fitting analogy would be using a 24 oz hammer vs a 22 oz hammer. The 22 oz may take a little more striking to drive the nail, but it will still accomplish the same thing.


----------



## Mark Lopez

rickmeoff said:


> ...more trouble than its worth, really, unless you simply wanna record 2 nfl games at once. but even *that doesnt work out well when you wanna switch between more than 2.*


 And how do you manage that with Tivo without dumping one of the buffers? With the HR2x, you can record one and switch between the other two. Sure, it will dump the buffer, but so will Tivo. Or am I missing something?


----------



## rickmeoff

Mark Lopez said:


> And how do you manage that with Tivo without dumping one of the buffers? With the HR2x, you can record one and switch between the other two. Sure, it will dump the buffer, but so will Tivo. Or am I missing something?


youre missing something.

i was referring to the fact that with the hr20 its a pain when there are several nfl games on at one time that i like to flip back and forth to (more than 2 games).

there are a bunch of games on at 1pm, and a bunch on at 4pm.

yes, of course youll dump the buffer, but for those of us that like to try and keep tabs on more than 2 games at a time the hr20 'workaround' is a pita.


----------



## jimb726

rickmeoff said:


> youre missing something.
> 
> i was referring to the fact that with the hr20 its a pain when there are several nfl games on at one time that i like to flip back and forth to (more than 2 games).
> 
> there are a bunch of games on at 1pm, and a bunch on at 4pm.
> 
> yes, of course youll dump the buffer, but for those of us that like to try and keep tabs on more than 2 games at a time the hr20 'workaround' is a pita.


How would it be different, you record one game, presumably the one you really wnat and then use the other tuner to flip through any of the games you would like to. I guess if you are in depth following three or more games then I guess this wouldnt work, but them i dint see how the HR10 would do it either. you are always going to be flushing some buffer. At least if you anchor one (for me its the Browns) you can then use the other one to surf.


----------



## Cudahy

Just got my first update on the HR21 that I've had a month. I used to be able to get the todo list with just 2 buttons(close to the Tivo); now it takes 4 buttons.
This is an improvement??


----------



## shibby191

Cudahy said:


> Just got my first update on the HR21 that I've had a month. I used to be able to get the todo list with just 2 buttons(close to the Tivo); now it takes 4 buttons.
> This is an improvement??


Been discussed to death at DBSTalk for the past couple months. Might want to look for the threads.
Basically it was done for UI consistantcy (yellow button always brings up options for the current screen and menu is not static no matter where you are). I miss the shortcut at times but I've gotten used to it and I certainly like the more consistant UI. And my wife is no longer confused as everything to do with recordings is now in one menu on the main menu called "Manage Recordings" so I can see why they did what they did.

Again, 50+ page threads on DBSTalk about this change if you care to make your eyes bleed.


----------



## Mark Lopez

jimb726 said:


> How would it be different, you record one game, presumably the one you really wnat and then use the other tuner to flip through any of the games you would like to. I guess if you are in depth following three or more games then I guess this wouldnt work, *but them i dint see how the HR10 would do it either*. you are always going to be flushing some buffer. At least if you anchor one (for me its the Browns) you can then use the other one to surf.


Yes, that was my point. For more than 2 games or whatever, neither unit can do it without flushing a buffer. So I still don't see how it's so much harder. <shug>


----------



## justapixel

LI-SVT said:


> JAP
> If you get a black screen on a channel change or recording press the menu button or the guide button. If the overlay shows up the TV is fine and the HR20 is not doing its job. If the screen remains black the TV may not be handshaking with the HR20 right.


This is exactly what is happening.

Sorry, I haven't been able to check back.

I now have to reboot my unit because for 24 hours on one channel, a local HD, channel 10, we got the gray error message saying "don't call us, we are having a problem and are fixing it." After 24 hours, I know it's not the station, its the damn unit.

Lost is on in 20 minutes and this reboot better help. 

I'll keep reading further, but I still say my unit is POS. I hope that when I read, I get step-by-step instructions for activating the other unit? I have the card in the working one.....


----------



## carstud

Channel 10 in sacramento is down, at least the HD portion of the station. They have a bad wire on there tower. Since Directv is to cheap to get there feed on fiber directly from the station, they recieve the channel 10 HD with a over the air antenna(just like I do with Hr10-250) then rebroadcast it through satelite. I really love how they sell you a channel that you can pick up for free with a antenna. 
Check this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=397256.


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> I now have to reboot my unit because for 24 hours on one channel, a local HD, channel 10, we got the gray error message saying "don't call us, we are having a problem and are fixing it." After 24 hours, I know it's not the station, its the damn unit.


The post above seems to indicate it is indeed a station problem. So this is the second time you are blaming the unit for a problem not related to it.


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> I now have to reboot my unit because for 24 hours on one channel, a local HD, channel 10, we got the gray error message saying "don't call us, we are having a problem and are fixing it." After 24 hours, I know it's not the station, its the damn unit.
> 
> Lost is on in 20 minutes and this reboot better help.
> 
> I'll keep reading further, but I still say my unit is POS. I hope that when I read, I get step-by-step instructions for activating the other unit? I have the card in the working one.....


How can this be a problem with the receiver? DirecTV is actually broadcasting something to you and your receiver is getting it. The message is from DirecTV and says the channel is down. Happens from time to time. About 6 months ago lightning hit the tower of our CBS station which knocked out all digital (and thus HD) signals. OTA was down for a few days. During that time DirecTV puts up the card saying "hey, don't call us, we know there is a problem with the station".

No idea how you'd think this was a problem with the receiver. DirecTV is telling you up front it isn't, there is a problem with the station.


----------



## shibby191

carstud said:


> Channel 10 in sacramento is down, at least the HD portion of the station. They have a bad wire on there tower. Since Directv is to cheap to get there feed on fiber directly from the station, they recieve the channel 10 HD with a over the air antenna(just like I do with Hr10-250) then rebroadcast it through satelite.


Hmmm, DirecTV gets nearly all HD locals via OTA. So does Dish. Oh, and so do many cable systems. I guess they are all too cheap.



> I really love how they sell you a channel that you can pick up for free with a antenna.
> Check this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=397256.


Hmmmmm part 2. You don't get charged for locals, it's a part of your package. As does Dish.
Oh, and just try and get a cable package without locals. In fact, you have to pay $10-$15 a month *just* for locals from cable if that's all you want.
So criticize DirecTV all you want but they do nothing different then any other provider in terms of offering locals.

By the way, you can get OTA if you want, just gotta buy an antenna and put it up. No different then with Dish or cable or FIOS.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

shibby191 said:


> Hmmm, DirecTV gets nearly all HD locals via OTA. So does Dish. Oh, and so do many cable systems. I guess they are all too cheap.
> 
> Hmmmmm part 2. * You don't get charged for locals*, it's a part of your package. As does Dish.
> Oh, and just try and get a cable package without locals. In fact, you have to pay $10-$15 a month *just* for locals from cable if that's all you want.
> So criticize DirecTV all you want but they do nothing different then any other provider in terms of offering locals.
> 
> By the way, you can get OTA if you want, just gotta buy an antenna and put it up. No different then with Dish or cable or FIOS.


Actually, yes you do. The price is built into D*'s packages, but it is possible to get the locals removed (or at least it WAS) and have your bill reduced by about $5.00 a month.

Dish actually charges $5 extra on their packages for locals.


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> Been discussed to death at DBSTalk for the past couple months. Might want to look for the threads.
> Basically it was done for UI consistantcy (yellow button always brings up options for the current screen and menu is not static no matter where you are). I miss the shortcut at times but I've gotten used to it and I certainly like the more consistant UI. And my wife is no longer confused as everything to do with recordings is now in one menu on the main menu called "Manage Recordings" so I can see why they did what they did.
> 
> Again, 50+ page threads on DBSTalk about this change if you care to make your eyes bleed.


He he he, 50 pages huh? And tell me again why your dvr is superior to Tivo? As I recall, I've been able to get to my to-do list for about 7 years now with just two button pushes - don't need no function keys - err color buttons to fiddle with - yup, just 2 buttons


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> He he he, 50 pages huh? And tell me again why your dvr is superior to Tivo?


Ummm, when have I claimed it's superior? That's something you don't really get. Just because it works for me or because I use it over something else doesn't make it superior. Duh. 

I don't think I'd ever claim that Windows is superior to a Mac but I use Windows because a Mac doesn't run the software I want to use (especially games). Thus I use Windows. Certainly no "Windows fanboy" but it works for me for the things I want to use.

So people need to make the same descision with their multichannel provider. You don't have to be a "DirecTV fanboy" to like the DVR they provide especially if the programming they have is far superior to other options you may have. It's like to you anybody that doesn't choose Tivo has to be a fanboy for the "other side" or something.

But yea, I guess because one DVR has a shorter way to get to one function that makes it superior. I hear ya. I guess the HR20 must be superior because it's quicker to get to the sat signal meter then on a Tivo.


----------



## shibby191

TonyTheTiger said:


> Actually, yes you do. The price is built into D*'s packages, but it is possible to get the locals removed (or at least it WAS) and have your bill reduced by about $5.00 a month.
> 
> Dish actually charges $5 extra on their packages for locals.


You can only get locals taken off if you don't actually have locals available to you. So if no locals are available you can get $3 off your package. Otherwise you get 'em. Now some people might have an old grandfathered package that doesn't include locals but...


----------



## jimb726

RS4 said:


> He he he, 50 pages huh? And tell me again why your dvr is superior to Tivo? As I recall, I've been able to get to my to-do list for about 7 years now with just two button pushes - don't need no function keys - err color buttons to fiddle with - yup, just 2 buttons


I guess three buttons is too much? <Manage Recordings> <To Do List> Whew, that was stressful.


----------



## Cudahy

What baffles me is that instead of making it simpler, easier, and more intuitive they did just the opposite. If there ARE 50 pages of discussion of this on the DBS site that just proves my point.


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> As I recall, I've been able to get to my to-do list for about 7 years now with just two button pushes - don't need no function keys - err color buttons to fiddle with - yup, just 2 buttons


And how many keypresses does it take you to get to:

Caller ID
On Demand
Music Photos & More
Search history
Guide with in progress recorings showing, and those schedualed to record
PIG
Space remaining meter
etc etc
????

Oh... That's right............


----------



## bootsy

Mark Lopez said:


> And how many keypresses does it take you to get to:
> 
> Caller ID
> On Demand
> Music Photos & More
> Search history
> Guide with in progress recorings showing, and those schedualed to record
> PIG
> Space remaining meter
> etc etc
> ????
> 
> Oh... That's right............


lol...


----------



## jsmeeker

RS4 said:


> He he he, 50 pages huh? And tell me again why your dvr is superior to Tivo? As I recall, I've been able to get to my to-do list for about 7 years now with just two button pushes - don't need no function keys - err color buttons to fiddle with - yup, just 2 buttons


two button pushes?? Man..That sux.. I get to mine with one.





Anyway, as much as I love TiVo, I'll tell you why the HR20 is now superior to the TiVo DirecTV HD DVR. The HR20 will record every channel DirecTV offers. The TiVo powered one won't

On that alone, the HR20 surpasses the TiVo powered one. Forget number of button pushes, whiz bang features like photos and caller ID, interface, etc. etc. For it's core function of actually recording TV shows, HR20 wins because it can record all of them.

It's sad, but true.


----------



## RS4

jsmeeker said:


> two button pushes?? Man..That sux.. I get to mine with one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, as much as I love TiVo, I'll tell you why the HR20 is now superior to the TiVo DirecTV HD DVR. The HR20 will record every channel DirecTV offers. The TiVo powered one won't
> 
> On that alone, the HR20 surpasses the TiVo powered one. Forget number of button pushes, whiz bang features like photos and caller ID, interface, etc. etc. For it's core function of actually recording TV shows, HR20 wins because it can record all of them.
> 
> It's sad, but true.


Sad but true is right - that's why many of us have left D*. I have the content I want (my HD folder usually has around 15 choices on one Tivo and another 5 - 10 on the other one), plus the Tivo I love, so I'm glad I left.


----------



## RS4

Mark Lopez said:


> And how many keypresses does it take you to get to:
> 
> Caller ID
> On Demand
> Music Photos & More
> Search history
> Guide with in progress recorings showing, and those schedualed to record
> PIG
> Space remaining meter
> etc etc
> ????
> 
> Oh... That's right............


Actually, the PIG is why I didn't get the other box and left. But I do enjoy MRV, Amazon Unbox and the freebies from the Internet on TivoCast. I think most of the other features are there in my Tivos, except the space and caller id.


----------



## jsmeeker

RS4 said:


> Sad but true is right - that's why many of us have left D*. I have the content I want (my HD folder usually has around 15 choices on one Tivo and another 5 - 10 on the other one), plus the Tivo I love, so I'm glad I left.


yup.

you gotta pick what you love more. TiVo or DirecTV. If you love DirecTV more for whatever reason, probably means bye bye TiVo. If you love TiVo more and can live with cable, yay for you. 

Just the way it is.


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> Sad but true is right - that's why many of us have left D*.
> 
> ....I'm glad I left.


So let me get this straight. Not only have you bashed the HR2x every chance you get, even though you never leased or used one. But now you don't even have DirecTV Tivo either, but still feel the need to come here (this is the DirecTV DVR forum you know) and still bash?


----------



## RS4

Mark Lopez said:


> So let me get this straight. Not only have you bashed the HR2x every chance you get, even though you never leased or used one. But now you don't even have DirecTV Tivo either, but still feel the need to come here (this is the DirecTV DVR forum you know) and still bash?


Hey dude - where you been? I've stated on numerous occasions that I am no longer a D* sub. I started with a planned 21- day trial program, but liked Comcast so well, I bought a second Tivo HD and left D* after the superbowl. I only stayed that long so my daughter could use the OTA for fox, or I would have been gone in 2 weeks. Unlike you, I have been quite public about my status


----------



## 20TIL6

Mark Lopez said:


> So let me get this straight. Not only have you bashed the HR2x every chance you get, even though you never leased or used one. But now you don't even have DirecTV Tivo either, but still feel the need to come here (this is the DirecTV DVR forum you know) and still bash?


It's all about the eyeballs, right Mark? And unfortunately for DirecTV, dbstalk doesn't have nearly as many.


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> Hey dude - where you been? I've stated on numerous occasions that I am no longer a D* sub. I started with a planned 21- day trial program, but liked Comcast so well, I bought a second Tivo HD and left D* after the superbowl. I only stayed that long so my daughter could use the OTA for fox, or I would have been gone in 2 weeks. Unlike you, I have been quite public about my status


Well, I typically avoid reading most of your stuff since it's usually the same old bash routine. 

But you still didn't answer the question on why you feel the need to keep posting (bashing) here when you don't even have DirecTV anymore. Isn't there a dedicated forum area for cable Tivo folks?


----------



## TonyTheTiger

Mark Lopez said:


> Well, I typically avoid reading most of your stuff since it's usually the same old bash routine.
> 
> But you still didn't answer the question on why you feel the need to keep posting (bashing) here when you don't even have DirecTV anymore. *Isn't there a dedicated forum area for cable Tivo folks?*


Of course there is. The problem? There's no-one in it! They either got rid of [email protected] or are too embarassed at the poorer PQ, lack of HD channels or even worse customer service than D* to even go there!

Only those "lucky" enough to be in a good service area even bother to look in that area of the forum any more, so they have to come here in an attempt to feel better about their decision.

I guess it's kinda like driving a Honda for several years and then buying a Kia.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

RS4 said:


> Sad but true is right - that's why *many of us* have left D*. I have the content I want (my HD folder usually has around 15 choices on one Tivo and another 5 - 10 on the other one), plus the Tivo I love, so I'm glad I left.


For "many of us" read "me".

Again with the ambiguous statements that you can't back up!

I've stated many times that I'm not an HR2x lover, but I had to have the content offered which is better than anything else out there. I priced up E* today and they don't come close - and I have no cable alternative to even speak of.

I'm not quoting figures I can't back up like some, but I'd be interested to see how many new customers have been signed in the same period as "many of us" have left D*!


----------



## HazelW

TonyTheTiger said:


> For "many of us" read "me".
> 
> Again with the ambiguous statements that you can't back up!
> 
> I've stated many times that I'm not an HR2x lover, but I had to have the content offered which is better than anything else out there. I priced up E* today and they don't come close - and I have no cable alternative to even speak of.
> 
> I'm not quoting figures I can't back up like some, but I'd be interested to see how many new customers have been signed in the same period as "many of us" have left D*!


I know at least 6 people (and I don't know that many people) who have left D* in the past 3 months. Five went to FIOS, one to Comcast. Of the six, nine HD TiVos were purchased. The dishes are coming down all over my neighborhood. Plenty of HD on FIOS and Comcast, and more to come.

Reasons vary from the 2 year commitment if going the HR20 route to just better service and quality of picture. Surprisingly, DLB was not a reason for any of them. One guy was evan a 10 year Season Ticket customer.

I don't claim that this is a nationwide trend, but be assured D* is losing a lot of customers particularly in areas where FIOS is available.


----------



## shibby191

It's pretty isolated. On the latest financial call this week DirecTV net added another 275,000 subs in the 4th quarter and churn was down to an 8 year low of 1.42 &#37; (which is very low for anybody). Demand for the HRDVR (HR20/21) is thru the roof, even more then they expected. Some people just don't get it that DirecTV is doing just fine without Tivo.

In other words while some are leaving DirecTV (as they always do every month, that is what churn is afterall) more are signing up with DirecTV.

More and more dishes go up in my area (both DirecTV and Dish) every month. And the cable system isn't total crap either. Guess it just depends where you live. 

I've always said, if you have a good option and you just can't live without the Tivo UI then please, be happy and go with your other option.


----------



## Cudahy

Surest way for Directv to lower its churn rate even lower - Offer a TivoHD option.


----------



## justapixel

Mark Lopez said:


> The post above seems to indicate it is indeed a station problem. So this is the second time you are blaming the unit for a problem not related to it.


Is the random reboot the problem with the station?

Is the disappearing shows a problem with the station?

Is the lipsynch disconnect a problem with the station?

Is the shows not recording a problem with the station?

You are right. I have assumed that two of the problems I've had are with the HR20 when they apparently aren't. But, the fact remains that I am having a lot of problems with this unit that ARE with this unit.

I have somebody coming out on Sunday to completely replace it. If that doesn't work, I'm done.

In eight years, I never had one frustration with TiVo.

(Not the use of the word "I")


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> Is the random reboot the problem with the station?


No, but the unit will reboot when it gets an update and it's normal to get one right after you get it, and another was just released. If it's more random that that, then you may just have a bad unit - it happens, just like Tivo.



justapixel said:


> Is the disappearing shows a problem with the station?


I don't recall you mentioning this. Just what is happening?



justapixel said:


> Is the lipsynch disconnect a problem with the station?


Quite likely. There are more lip sync issues with HD and MPEG4 channels than normal. It is not unusual at all for it to be a station problem. Even Tivo folks have complained of the issue on some of the HD channels.



justapixel said:


> Is the shows not recording a problem with the station?


No, but it could be something else like bad guide data. Again, not limited to this unit. What about all of the Tivo complaints of 'Someone in your household.......'?

The bottom line as I've said from the beginning is that some people have problems with the HR2x, just like some people have problems with Tivo. A few bad units does not equate to the whole product line being faulty.

Didn't you say you had another unit already there? Why not just try that one? Get it set up (it will receive a few of the channels), call DirecTV and tell them that it was a replacement that needs to be activated and deactivate the old one.

On a side note, those BBCs can cause all sorts of problems and some have had bad ones. I had one go bad and DirecTV sent a new pair via FedEx and the problems went away. So be sure to check all of your your sat signals (use the meters), especially the 103c.


----------



## TonyTheTiger

HazelW said:


> I know at least 6 people (and I don't know that many people) who have left D* in the past 3 months. Five went to FIOS, one to Comcast. Of the six, nine HD TiVos were purchased. The dishes are coming down all over my neighborhood. Plenty of HD on FIOS and Comcast, and more to come.
> 
> Reasons vary from the 2 year commitment if going the HR20 route to just better service and quality of picture. Surprisingly, DLB was not a reason for any of them. One guy was evan a 10 year Season Ticket customer.
> 
> I don't claim that this is a nationwide trend, but be assured D* is losing a lot of customers particularly in areas where FIOS is available.


I agree totally! If I had FIOS available here, I'd be switching too! In last month's Consumer Reports, FIOS was rated the #1 provider (D* was #2, Comcast, #7 or8) where it was available. It's new technology that has the potential to be head and shoulders above anything else out there.

However, the point is that where FIOS is not available (99% of the country), this is not the case. Even in your circle of friends, only ONE switched to cable.


----------



## RS4

TonyTheTiger said:


> For "many of us" read "me".
> 
> Again with the ambiguous statements that you can't back up!
> 
> I've stated many times that I'm not an HR2x lover, but I had to have the content offered which is better than anything else out there. I priced up E* today and they don't come close - and I have no cable alternative to even speak of.
> 
> I'm not quoting figures I can't back up like some, but I'd be interested to see how many new customers have been signed in the same period as "many of us" have left D*!


I get a kick out of you guys - it's like hiding your head in the sand to avoid the inevitable, so you attack the messenger. I didn't quote numbers - however they are on my side. In fact, this quarter around 750,000 customers left D*.  Estimated D* numbers

Yes D* is growing right now - what would you expect? D* has the largest number of HD channels at the moment. So, naturally they are growing. People want to check out the new buffet in town with the 85 - 100 items laid out before them. So D* better be grabbing all they can, because the trade and financial press are saying that D* & E* appear to be losing more subscribers to FIOS then cable, and that over time, their growth will taper off dramatically. That's why D* is so keen on locking folks in for 2 years. They know they don't have quality products - instead just big numbers of HD channels.

In any case, 750,000 people leaving in 3 months is not a small number.

Maybe you ought to try search the internet for other sources before criticizing. The information is out there. I'm just the messenger


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> I get a kick out of you guys - it's like hiding your head in the sand to avoid the inevitable, so you attack the messenger. I didn't quote numbers - however they are on my side. In fact, this quarter around 750,000 customers left D*.  Estimated D* numbers
> 
> Yes D* is growing right now - what would you expect? D* has the largest number of HD channels at the moment. So, naturally they are growing. People want to check out the new buffet in town with the 85 - 100 items laid out before them. So D* better be grabbing all they can, because the trade and financial press are saying that D* & E* appear to be losing more subscribers to FIOS then cable, and that over time, their growth will taper off dramatically. That's why D* is so keen on locking folks in for 2 years. They know they don't have quality products - instead just big numbers of HD channels.
> 
> In any case, 750,000 people leaving in 3 months is not a small number.
> 
> Maybe you ought to try search the internet for other sources before criticizing. The information is out there. I'm just the messenger


One thing *you* don't realize about those numbers is that it's been that way for 15 years and for 30+ years in the cable industry. It's the way the industry works.

750K left. Over a million new subs signed up. That is *excellent* in this industry. Cable companies would chew their left arm off to have churn that low and numbers this good. 

And of course you continue to forget that they have had commitments a lot longer then they have had the DVR+ platform. Most people that activated an HR10 had either 1 or 2 year commitments. You don't like 'em, most people don't care. So get off your commitment train will ya?


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> ...
> 
> 750K left. Over a million new subs signed up. That is *excellent* in this industry. Cable companies would chew their left arm off to have churn that low and numbers this good.
> 
> And of course you continue to forget that they have had commitments a lot longer then they have had the DVR+ platform. Most people that activated an HR10 had either 1 or 2 year commitments. You don't like 'em, most people don't care. So get off your commitment train will ya?


He he - need a bigger shovel? It appears someone else is chewing more than the left arm


----------



## TonyTheTiger

RS4 said:


> I get a kick out of you guys - it's like hiding your head in the sand to avoid the inevitable, so you attack the messenger. I didn't quote numbers - however they are on my side. In fact, this quarter around 750,000 customers left D*.  Estimated D* numbers
> 
> Yes D* is growing right now - what would you expect? D* has the largest number of HD channels at the moment. So, naturally they are growing. People want to check out the new buffet in town with the 85 - 100 items laid out before them. So D* better be grabbing all they can, because the trade and financial press are saying that D* & E* appear to be losing more subscribers to FIOS then cable, and that over time, their growth will taper off dramatically. That's why D* is so keen on locking folks in for 2 years. They know they don't have quality products - instead just big numbers of HD channels.
> 
> In any case, 750,000 people leaving in 3 months is not a small number.
> 
> Maybe you ought to try search the internet for other sources before criticizing. The information is out there. I'm just the messenger


First, the "head in the sand" comment. I'm not doing any such thing, but if I were, it's a lot better than up my....err... where yours is!

Also, your link refers to what someone is "expected" to say - and that's a third party!!

..and I quote (from your own link)...



> Jason Bazinet of Citi Investment Research* said he expects DIRECTV to report* fourth quarter gross customer additions of 1.05 million, while the analyst *estimated* the DBS company's net customer additions for the three-month period to be at 259,000. That would put DIRECTV's fourth quarter and year-end 2007 total at an estimated 16.8 million, stated the Citi numbers.
> 
> In a separate note, *Bazinet said he expects 2008 gross customer additions for DIRECTV to number of 4 million, up from 3.8 million previously forecasted by Citi. Net additions could jump by 563,000 for the current year, he said.*


Hardly proof - and as has been stated, still shows growth. Turnover is natural in any business and sure, some will leave for the most petty of reasons, but new people will come in - and if they're coming in faster than they're going out, there's advancement, not a death knell as you are trying to make out.

Bottom line - I hope you can [email protected] are very happy together. It's a free choice (where there IS a choice) and, while not perfect, D* is doing OK.

So why don't you just give it a rest already? Or go away and find out who's been messing with your Season Pass?


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> .....losing more subscribers to FIOS then cable, and that over time, their growth will taper off dramatically.


It's funny because I've had satellite Internet for over 2 years now and when I first got it, people like you were saying there was no future for satellite Internet and it would be dead in a year. But yet, demand was so high, that WildBlue launched their own satellite last year that was expected to take years to fill to capacity, but yet some beams are already full and there is talk of another satellite launch. So, the bottom line is as long as there are 'rural' people (which is a very large percentage of the United States) there will always be satellite customers. And those rural areas will probably never see FIOS or cable as it's just not cost effective to run the lines unless the government some day mandates it. DirecTV will be around for a long time.

BTW, you still haven't answered my question.


----------



## Cudahy

So Directv lost 750,000 subscribers in the last year and their happy about it?
I hope Malone doesn't feel that way.


----------



## Flogduh

Mark Lopez said:


> Your analogy is a bit over the top. A more fitting analogy would be using a 24 oz hammer vs a 22 oz hammer. The 22 oz may take a little more striking to drive the nail, but it will still accomplish the same thing.


Only in your "not so humble" opinion Mark.


----------



## justapixel

Mark Lopez said:


> No, but the unit will reboot when it gets an update and it's normal to get one right after you get it, and another was just released. If it's more random that that, then you may just have a bad unit - it happens, just like Tivo.


It never happened with my D*TiVo. And, it happens with no software update.

At least when TiVo did a software update, they scheduled the reboot at a time when people likely aren't going to be using it. I did have an expected reboot when I got the unit but it happened at 8:00 p.m. when I was recording a show.



> I don't recall you mentioning this. Just what is happening?


I love the way you play devils advocate without reading the posts. I clearly explained what was happening. I record shows, and when I go to watch them, all I get is a blank screen. Black. With the menu overlay. On all my shows. When I reboot, (which takes 20 minutes) I can see them again. This has happened numerous times now, in the 2 1/2 months or so I've had the box. It happened the first day and I had to call support. It continues to happen.



> No, but it could be something else like bad guide data. Again, not limited to this unit. What about all of the Tivo complaints of 'Someone in your household.......'?


Except, I have my old TiVo box running with the same recordings, so I switch to it and it's fine. Not guide data. My TiVo never missed a recording with the exception of when I had a conflict and didn't notice.



> The bottom line as I've said from the beginning is that some people have problems with the HR2x, just like some people have problems with Tivo. A few bad units does not equate to the whole product line being faulty.


The bottom line is, I never said the entire product line was faulty. I said I don't like *MY* HR20. And, I don't. Compared to my TiVo experience - there is no comparison. One works consistently and one barely works at all. That is MY experience. I'm not trying to invalidate yours, I was trying to get answers and help and share what I had experienced.

Your history here is taking a personal statement and extrapolating that out to mean something quite different and expansive, because, I suspect, you either love to argue or you don't understand when one person shares an experience that means it's going to be universal for everyone. The world is not that black and white.



> Didn't you say you had another unit already there? Why not just try that one? Get it set up (it will receive a few of the channels), call DirecTV and tell them that it was a replacement that needs to be activated and deactivate the old one.


They are coming out on Sunday. I'm going to have them check the satellite, down to the wires and to the box. I've saved some shows with pixelation and the audio stuttering to show them. Hopefully, it is a bad box and then I'll be happy with the new one. If not, I've logged all my calls and events and will explore other options, because this is not really usable the way it is.

But, that's just MY experience.


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> He he - need a bigger shovel? It appears someone else is chewing more than the left arm


Perhaps you need to actually educate yourself on the business and it's history for the past 2 decades and come on back.


----------



## shibby191

Cudahy said:


> So Directv lost 750,000 subscribers in the last year and their happy about it?
> I hope Malone doesn't feel that way.


He will be ecstatic. I think you need to join RS4 and actually learn something about the business and realize how dumb your statement is.


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> Your history here is taking a personal statement and *extrapolating that out to mean something quite different and expansive*, because, I suspect, you either love to argue or you don't understand when one person shares an experience that means it's going to be universal for everyone.


Well, when someone (especially a moderator) makes a statement like.....



justapixel said:


> My advice to long-term TiVo owners - don't switch.


IMO that requires someone to speak up. And BTW, it's odd that several others have voiced similar opinions to mine in this thread and yet they don't seem to be enjoying the same 'wrath'. <shrug>


----------



## newsposter

i love my hr20 because my hdtivo wont see all the new HD channels and i couldnt live without stargate etc in HD!


----------



## justapixel

Mark Lopez said:


> Well, when someone (especially a moderator) makes a statement like.....


Note the use of the word "my." It's still my advice. My experience with this unit is it's a POS. I have not seen one single show on it that wasn't problematic - and I'm talking the ones that record.

Being a moderator doesn't mean I'm not allowed to share my opinion.



> IMO that requires someone to speak up. And BTW, it's odd that several others have voiced similar opinions to mine in this thread and yet they don't seem to be enjoying the same 'wrath'. <shrug>


It's not wrath. You are the one whose history I know. You have even said yourself that you enjoy taking the opposite sides on arguments - that you like to play devil's advocate. That's your history here and I pointed it out.

Rather than feeling "wrath" I am amused. Some things never change, and I find that comforting.


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> Being a moderator doesn't mean I'm not allowed to share my opinion.


Well, I guess things have changed. I recall at least one former moderator loosing his position for expressing his opinions. And I recall the big debate then about moderators getting involved (taking sides) in controversial topics and (at the time) there was an overwhelming consensus that moderators should not be doing that. But again, that was back before this forum had it's cliques. <shrug>


----------



## Langree

Mark Lopez said:


> Well, I guess things have changed. I recall at least one former moderator loosing his position for expressing his opinions. And I recall the big debate then about moderators getting involved (taking sides) in controversial topics and (at the time) there was an overwhelming consensus that moderators should not be doing that. But again, that was back before this forum had it's cliques. <shrug>


So when it comes to equipment, because Ann's a mod she shouldn't voice her oppinion? Please.

Her oppinion is as valid as anyone else's.


----------



## justapixel

So, here is what happened today.

The guy came in, looked at the picture (which was vibrating) and said "Wow, it looks like your receiver." I showed him some of the shows I'd marked, with the pixelation, interference and other problems. He said they'd given me an old box, and he had no idea why. He then replaced it with an HR21. He said it as not my TV but the box.

So, it's downloading now, and we'll see.

He was really nice. He even said that he wished Direct TV would partner with TiVo because "they wouldn't lose so many customers." Interesting when an installer brings that up.

He also left the HR20 with me. He said he could take it back, but the warehouse had a problem with "losing receivers" and then it would cost me 200.00.  He said it would be better if I shipped it back myself. 

I sure hope this solves my problem. It'd be nice to watch a show that I could hear all the way through, that I could see all the way through, and it would be nice to have the confidence that I won't miss shows I record.

We'll see.


----------



## daperlman

justapixel said:


> So, here is what happened today.
> 
> The guy came in, looked at the picture (which was vibrating) and said "Wow, it looks like your receiver." I showed him some of the shows I'd marked, with the pixelation, interference and other problems. He said they'd given me an old box, and he had no idea why. He then replaced it with an HR21. He said it as not my TV but the box.
> 
> So, it's downloading now, and we'll see.
> 
> He was really nice. He even said that he wished Direct TV would partner with TiVo because "they wouldn't lose so many customers." Interesting when an installer brings that up.
> 
> He also left the HR20 with me. He said he could take it back, but the warehouse had a problem with "losing receivers" and then it would cost me 200.00.  He said it would be better if I shipped it back myself.
> 
> I sure hope this solves my problem. It'd be nice to watch a show that I could hear all the way through, that I could see all the way through, and it would be nice to have the confidence that I won't miss shows I record.
> 
> We'll see.


Hope you didn't need the OTA tuner. 
They pay these installers 40$ per appt. so they are incredibly motovated to split, maybe for good. So yeah sending yourself if a good idea. My mother had some dude who left in the middle of the install and said he'd come back with the equipment he forgot. Guess what happened.


----------



## justapixel

Okay, software downloaded. A very loud buzzing started up. I checked the sound on my other DVR, no buzzing. I switched HDMI cables. Buzzing still there. 

Another POS.

I'll now try with component cables. Dear God.


----------



## daperlman

justapixel said:


> Okay, software downloaded. A very loud buzzing started up. I checked the sound on my other DVR, no buzzing. I switched HDMI cables. Buzzing still there.
> 
> Another POS.
> 
> I'll now try with component cables. Dear God.


Through the speakers... or like mechanical (from the receiver itself). Cuz the latter happened to mine, you'll notice it goes away with pressure on top (near front of the unit)... it is the plastic case

what would HDMI/Component have to do with sound anyway?


----------



## justapixel

daperlman said:


> Hope you didn't need the OTA tuner.


I don't think so. We can do OTA through the TV if necessary.

I get locals.


----------



## justapixel

daperlman said:


> Through the speakers... or like mechanical (from the receiver itself). Cuz the latter happened to mine, you'll notice it goes away with pressure on top (near front of the unit)... it is the plastic case
> 
> what would HDMI/Component have to do with sound anyway?


It sounds like it's through the TV.

But, if I switch to the TiVo, it stops. It's a VERY loud buzzing.

As to your second question, I don't know, I"m just trying everything.


----------



## daperlman

justapixel said:


> It sounds like it's through the TV.
> 
> But, if I switch to the TiVo, it stops. It's a VERY loud buzzing.
> 
> As to your second question, I don't know, I"m just trying everything.


What sound output is used? Toslink?


----------



## justapixel

No, watching live TV, with Component hooked up, I'm getting stuttering. 

I'm so confused.


----------



## justapixel

daperlman said:


> What sound output is used? Toslink?


I don't know what this means? I had HDMI from the HR21 to the HDMI port on the TV. We are using the TV's speakers.

With the HR20, we didn't have the buzzing. With the HR21, we have buzzing. But, not if we switch to TiVo.

Now that I've switched to component, I'm getting stuttering. Visual too.


----------



## daperlman

justapixel said:


> I don't know what this means? I had HDMI from the HR21 to the HDMI port on the TV. We are using the TV's speakers.
> 
> With the HR20, we didn't have the buzzing. With the HR21, we have buzzing. But, not if we switch to TiVo.
> 
> Now that I've switched to component, I'm getting stuttering. Visual too.


This is a toslink cable








Anyway if the picture is stuttering then probably the bad sound is coming through the satellite feed do you have the b-band convertors in place... meaning the sat cable is going into this before your receiver


----------



## Langree

justapixel said:


> I don't know what this means? I had HDMI from the HR21 to the HDMI port on the TV. We are using the TV's speakers.
> 
> With the HR20, we didn't have the buzzing. With the HR21, we have buzzing. But, not if we switch to TiVo.
> 
> Now that I've switched to component, I'm getting stuttering. Visual too.


HDMI includes sound.

Are you going through a reciever or straight to the TV?


----------



## shibby191

If I remember correctly your Tivo is just SD, correct? In other words you don't have anything else in the house that uses HDMI that you can test?

Honestly, this all sounds like a TV problem to me. Bad HDMI port and using the TV itself for sound isn't recommended typically because their sound is usually pretty crappy.
Do you have any other HD capable equipment that you can try? or even an upconverting DVD player? I'm just thinking something is wrong with your TV. 
Is the TV calibrated properly for HD on the inputs you are using?

Do you have a regular TV (not HD) somewhere in the house? Take your HR21 to it and set it up on that regular TV and that will tell you for sure if it's the receiver or your TV. Seriously, try this. This will tell you for sure if the receiver is the problem.


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> He even said that he wished Direct TV would partner with TiVo because "they wouldn't lose so many customers." Interesting when an installer brings that up.


LOL. Yea, that's why the installers all across the country are so busy they can't keep up and have been for over a year.


----------



## daperlman

shibby191 said:


> If I remember correctly your Tivo is just SD, correct? In other words you don't have anything else in the house that uses HDMI that you can test?
> 
> Honestly, this all sounds like a TV problem to me. Bad HDMI port and using the TV itself for sound isn't recommended typically because their sound is usually pretty crappy.
> Do you have any other HD capable equipment that you can try? or even an upconverting DVD player? I'm just thinking something is wrong with your TV.
> Is the TV calibrated properly for HD on the inputs you are using?
> 
> Do you have a regular TV (not HD) somewhere in the house? Take your HR21 to it and set it up on that regular TV and that will tell you for sure if it's the receiver or your TV. Seriously, try this. This will tell you for sure if the receiver is the problem.


If that were the case.... why is the pic stuttering with the component? Even if she uses the HDMI for pic ... she could use toslink or RCA cables for sound


----------



## justapixel

daperlman said:


>


That box thing is there, it says b-band converter. Is the toslink the cable going into that? I can't tell what kind it is.

I switched to component because I thought it might be the HDMI port(s) on my TV - I tried all four of them - even though that sound didn't happen with the HR20.

And, so far, the buzzing hasn't come back.

I didn't plan on using the TV speakers forever, but for now it's all I have.

I'm watching an HD show live now, just to see what happens.

And, yes, this is the only HD thing I have in the house.


----------



## shibby191

daperlman said:


> If that were the case.... why is the pic stuttering with the component? Even if she uses the HDMI for pic ... she could use toslink or RCA cables for sound


That's why I'm suggesting to try a non HD TV set. Honestly, it would be incredible bad luck to get 2 bad receivers in a row. Got to do everything to eliminate the TV as the problem. I have seen many a post on AVS in the past of HDTVs that are fine with SD signals but are "broke" on any HD signal (component or HDMI).


----------



## daperlman

justapixel said:


> That box thing is there, it says b-band converter. Is the toslink the cable going into that? I can't tell what kind it is.
> 
> I switched to component because I thought it might be the HDMI port(s) on my TV - I tried all four of them - even though that sound didn't happen with the HR20.
> 
> And, so far, the buzzing hasn't come back.
> 
> I didn't plan on using the TV speakers forever, but for now it's all I have.
> 
> I'm watching an HD show live now, just to see what happens.
> 
> And, yes, this is the only HD thing I have in the house.


No toslink goes where it says digital audio output... but if you are using TV for sound then nevermind


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> That box thing is there, it says b-band converter. Is the toslink the cable going into that? I can't tell what kind it is.
> 
> I switched to component because I thought it might be the HDMI port(s) on my TV - I tried all four of them - even though that sound didn't happen with the HR20.
> 
> And, so far, the buzzing hasn't come back.
> 
> I didn't plan on using the TV speakers forever, but for now it's all I have.
> 
> I'm watching an HD show live now, just to see what happens.
> 
> And, yes, this is the only HD thing I have in the house.


Toslink is the optical connection for audio. It's more commonly knows as "optical". It is the most common way to hook up audio to an A/V receiver but sounds like you don't have an AVR. Unless you have a higher end TV you may not have a Toslink connection on it.

Basically there are 3 ways to get Dolby Digital audio:
1) Optical (Toslink)
2) Digital Coax
3) HDMI

By far options 1 or 2 are preferred if at all possible.

Anyway, are you able to take the HR21 to another TV and see how it does? Even just using Svideo or RCA connections.


----------



## justapixel

shibby191 said:


> Anyway, are you able to take the HR21 to another TV and see how it does? Even just using Svideo or RCA connections.


I can take it upstairs if necessary - we have a non-HD TV up there. But, it will be inconvenient as it's not easily accessable. I'll watch for a while and see. The stuttering hasn't come back.

My D*TiVo is also hooked up to this TV and I've not had any stuttering or other problems, so it seems to me that it would not be the TV?


----------



## newsposter

if someone suggested this, sorry for the dup, but did you try just using the RCA cables for video and audio ? Or even S vid plus the RCA cables ?


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> I can take it upstairs if necessary - we have a non-HD TV up there. But, it will be inconvenient as it's not easily accessable. I'll watch for a while and see. The stuttering hasn't come back.
> 
> My D*TiVo is also hooked up to this TV and I've not had any stuttering or other problems, so it seems to me that it would not be the TV?


Your DTivo is just connected via Svideo or RCA cables, thus not displaying HD. It is possible that the TV only has problems with processing HD (thru the Component or HDMI inputs). This is why I mentioned it as to try to eliminate every variable. It really could be any number of a dozen things going on.

If it's fine for a few days via Component (and I'm assuming you're using RCA for audio now?) then this leads to the HDMI processing on the TV being bad. Which isn't good should you get more equipment that needs HDMI but Component is just as good video wise in most cases so you'll be just fine.

In my opinion the best connections you can have is Component for video and optical for audio as there are just so many problems with HDMI on various sets why bother with it if you don't have to. But let's not get off track here.

By the way, what is your exact make and model number of this TV?
What is it's native resolution?

And while we are at it, how is the HR21's video options setup?
Native on or off? What resolutions are set?


----------



## justapixel

My husband is watching basketball. He says it has pixellated a few times with component. 



> By the way, what is your exact make and model number of this TV?
> What is it's native resolution?
> 
> And while we are at it, how is the HR21's video options setup?
> Native on or off? What resolutions are set?


It's a Mitsubishi TX-42F4305. 1080p.

I have the HR21 set up for 1080 and on the old one, I had native on. On this one, it's still off.

I suppose it could be a combination of my TV and the DVRs, which confused the situation. Some things are obviously the box, like the blank screen when you hit play.

Keep in mind, I watch my D*TiVo on the same TV and experience no problems at all. So, if it is the TV, it has something to do with the HD.


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> My husband is watching basketball. He says it has pixellated a few times with component.
> 
> It's a Mitsubishi TX-42F4305. 1080p.
> 
> I have the HR21 set up for 1080 and on the old one, I had native on. On this one, it's still off.
> 
> I suppose it could be a combination of my TV and the DVRs, which confused the situation. Some things are obviously the box, like the blank screen when you hit play.
> 
> Keep in mind, I watch my D*TiVo on the same TV and experience no problems at all. So, if it is the TV, it has something to do with the HD.


Ok, couple things here.

First, this pixelization, what channel? Is it only on HD channels and if so which ones?

Some pixelization on HD channels is normal, in particular ESPN, ESPN2, TNT and the others still on MPEG2. Even OTA and locals will pixelize at times depending on how bad they compress their HD channel due to subchannels. For example my CBS has always been bad. No fault of DirecTV or any receiver. It's just they shove 1-2 subchannels into their stream and thus the HD signal gets starved and thus pixelizes and drops out all the time. Just the nature of HD. Been that way a lot longer then DirecTV has carried the channel.

Having said that the MPEG4 channels should be near perfect outside the odd lip sync issues on a couple like Discovery HD.

Also note that SD material will typically look pretty bad at times (if not most of the time) on an HDTV. Bigger the screen the worse it is. Garbage in/Garbage out. This can be helped by a proper calibration but it won't be perfect. And SD will probably look better thru old inputs like Svideo which I'm sure you're using on your DirecTivo. Upconverting SD thru Component or HDMI can definately cause artifacts. Honestly I saw it all the time when I got my first HDTV over 5 years ago. After a couple months I just didn't see it anymore. It's still there if I *really* look for it. But it's a jarring change for someone not used to it.

As for resolution settings. Being a 1080p TV it will always be upconverting the signal you give it to 1080p. So try a couple settings but leave Native OFF on the HR21:
1) Native OFF and set the resolutions to 1080i only. And then make sure it's actually in 1080i by pressing the format button and look for the light on the front of the box to be on 1080i. Some people have found it on 480i by default and a quick click of the format button and things looked 100 times better
2) Native OFF and set the resolution to 720p only and then make sure it's in 720p. Very well could be your TV doesn't upconvert from 1080i very well. So feed it progressive with 720p and then all it has to do it just upconvert the resolution. This *could* be the issue. Problem is that every single TV is different and you may need to play with various combinations.

And yes, a blank screen on play that is restored via a restart is a problem with the receiver. Thus why I think the HR20 is a bad box. Let's just hope you aren't unlucky and got another one.

So let's start here and move on to other things if needed.


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> It's a Mitsubishi TX-42F4305. 1080p.


Didn't you say it was a Westinghouse? That's all I find with that model number.

Westinghouse TX-42F430S is what I find.

Here is some info I found on it. Some of the things you're talking about seem to be common problems with this TV.

Here is the main thread on AVS on this set, there is a whole thread just for this model: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=851860

Some stuff from the first post:



> 1) 5.1 DD Via Internal Tuner (Both QAM and OTA)


Essentually big problems decoding 5.1 audio properly (could be the sound problems you had before).



> 3) Frame/Scrawl Judder
> if you tune to a channel with a scrawl running you will see that once every two seconds it appears to drop a frame. Once you see it on the scrawl, you will probably notice the missing frame watching normal TV - especially when the camera pans across the screen... For me, my set always did this with component hooked up from my SA8300HD. With HDMI, it would be fine for a while and then start to drop frames. When I would power off/on the set, it would go away for a while.
> 
> and
> 
> I have seen this through VGA and HDMI. It is easily noticeable in Guitar Hero with the scrolling bar. The bar would skip frames every 2 seconds....It is fixable with the 10 sec power reboot. I have no idea how to re-create it, but when it does happen I just do the reboot and it goes away. It is not very often though.


This sounds exactly like the "stutter" issue you reported.



> 4) HDMI Flickering/Dropouts
> 
> There are numerous reports of flickering and dropouts when using an HDMI source, particularly the PS3 but problems with the SA 8300 HD cable box and Sony upscaling DVD player have also been reported. The assumption is that there is a problem with the HDCP authentication.


Sounds like the HDMI issues you were having.

Via Amazon:


> 1. You will see some pixelating in very dark areas. The picture snaps back when the scene brightens up again. This improves somewhat as the set 'breaks-in'. After about 20 hours of use and adjusting the settings, now, it's a very minor issue for me. ALL LCDs are prone to this to some degree or another.
> 
> 2. I first heard soft popping noises when listening to DVDs (only) with an HDMI connection. The noise would come and go intermittently. This issue went away completely after about 20 hours of use. (I can't explain it). Also, this can be worked around if you use a Home Theater Receiver.


Again, sounds very similar to the issues you have been having.

Now this is all when viewing on an HD input of course, SD inputs (like from your DirecTivo) would seem to be uneffected.

I'm not trying to say the HR20 or HR21 is flawless, far from it. And some of the things you had problems with on the HR20 (blank recordings fixed with reboot for example) can certainly be put on the HR20. But many of your other problems just all seemed like a TV problem to me.

Now assuming I didn't make a mistake in your make and model (the model number seemed to be Westinghouse) but there seems to be a lot of problems with that model of HDTV. You really might want to look at returning it and get a different brand or model. I've had good luck with Hitachi or Pioneer. You might pay more but you do get what you paid for in the HDTV world.

Hope this helps. I feel for you. I want TV to just "work" as well. But with HD sometimes it just isn't that easy.


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## Mark Lopez

Langree said:


> So when it comes to equipment, because Ann's a mod she shouldn't voice her oppinion? Please.
> 
> Her oppinion is as valid as anyone else's.


The point was that when it came to controversial subjects (like this) moderators were supposed to keep out of them. This was discussed at length when a former moderator was chastised for stating his opinions and was ultimately removed as a moderator. There was even a suggestion that if a mod wanted to participate in a controversial subject they might even use a different alias. The concept was that a moderator should not be using their position to influence others. In this case, it was not just an opinion about equipment, but 'advice' was given for Tivo users not to switch. That goes beyond personal opinion of their own equipment and beyond what was once acceptable for moderators. However, as already mentioned, cliques formed here and certain people (both mods and others) are allowed more leeway than others based on their 'popularity'. Since I don't give a crap about popularity, I state things as I see them, and thus usually get flamed for voicing my opinions.


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## Langree

Mark Lopez said:


> The point was that when it came to controversial subjects (like this) moderators were supposed to keep out of them. This was discussed at length when a former moderator was chastised for stating his opinions and was ultimately removed as a moderator. There was even a suggestion that if a mod wanted to participate in a controversial subject they might even use a different alias. The concept was that a moderator should not be using their position to influence others. In this case, it was not just an opinion about equipment, but 'advice' was given for Tivo users not to switch. That goes beyond personal opinion of their own equipment and beyond what was once acceptable for moderators. However, as already mentioned, cliques formed here and certain people (both mods and others) are allowed more leeway than others based on their 'popularity'. Since I don't give a crap about popularity, I state things as I see them, and thus usually get flamed for voicing my opinions.


You did see who started this thread right?

What was the topoic being discussed that got a mod removed? Was it equipment related?

Have you looked at the pics of Mike Lang's set up? Mod or not I might seek out his input if I were looking to do an in house system, It'd be stupid if I couldn't because he's a mod.

I hate to break it to you Mark, but 'cliques' existed here LONG before it was voiced, society is just built like that.

Her telling TiVo users not to switch is her oppinion and is no worse then many of us have done on different subjects.


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## justapixel

Mark Lopez said:


> The point was that when it came to controversial subjects (like this) moderators were supposed to keep out of them. This was discussed at length when a former moderator was chastised for stating his opinions and was ultimately removed as a moderator. There was even a suggestion that if a mod wanted to participate in a controversial subject they might even use a different alias. The concept was that a moderator should not be using their position to influence others. In this case, it was not just an opinion about equipment, but 'advice' was given for Tivo users not to switch. That goes beyond personal opinion of their own equipment and beyond what was once acceptable for moderators. However, as already mentioned, cliques formed here and certain people (both mods and others) are allowed more leeway than others based on their 'popularity'. Since I don't give a crap about popularity, I state things as I see them, and thus usually get flamed for voicing my opinions.


You are completely wrong though.

I presume you are talking about ybrew. I was not a mod at that point. However, he was discussing threads on topics not allowed on this forum. Homosexuality and religion for example - he was very anti-gay as you might recall. And, he flamed people who disagreed with him - outright name-calling. He was asked repeatedly by David to stay out of those threads and refused. He resigned as a mod rather than stay out of them.

If you are referring to Otto, then I was a mod for a brief period when he was here. He was removed from moderating for, IIRC, posting a link to a beheading, after posting other links that David had requested he not do. Both were given chances to change their posting style, and both chose not to.

When I was asked to be a mod, I signed moderator rules. In them, it said that I was allowed to give my opinion and participate fully on the forums but I had to follow all of the rules of the forum. Which I have done. There was nothing in there that said I could not give a product review, even a negative one. In fact, David encouraged me to participate fully. So, you are completely wrong, and you are relying on gossip and very old news that has been distorted for your statements.

I also promised I would never use another ID. We mods cannot use fake/dupe ideas anymore than the users can. The exception for users is if they have a very sensitive personal problem they want to discuss anonymously in the Happy Hour. We overlook it for that reason and no other. So, whatever gossip you have heard about mods having other IDs is wrong. Again. It was in the rules I signed that I would never do that, and I haven't.

Now, Mark, I think we are done hijacking this thread. I am trying to diagnose my problem with my DVR/TV. I may have been wrong in that some of the problems I've experienced are from the TV and not the DVR.

But not all. And, frankly, even if I had zero problems with it - I just don't find this DVR as elegant and easy to use as TiVo. It's like comparing an iPhone and a Blackberry. Each person has their preference. Mine is the iPhone/TiVo.

I'm sorry if that threatens you somehow, but perhaps you'd be better served sticking up for the product you like by helping me and talking up it's good points rather than relaying gossip about moderators who have been gone for many years and which has nothing to do with my opinion of this product.


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## Turtleboy

Saying that TiVo is better than other DVRs is controversial on a Tivo forum?


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## Langree

Turtleboy said:


> Saying that TiVo is better than other DVRs is controversial on a Tivo forum?


I can't wrap my head around that either.


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## justapixel

You are right, I meant Westinghouse. I was tired when I posted that, but where I got Mitsubishi, I have no idea! 

The pixellation I was experienced seem more than was described though. The entire picture fell apart, for over five seconds, sometimes more. Most of the display turns green.

Not saying it's not the TV but it more violent than what was described. And, my TV is not LCD it is plasma.

I will pay attention and see if it only happens in dark scenes. 

Last night I watched two recorded shows. I got through one, Dexter, without one issue. It was perfect. The second was Breaking Bad, and I had one brief moment of pixellation. Much milder than before. No stuttering.

So, we'll see. I can live with it the way it is but I cant use an HDMI cable. That I don't know if its the TV or not. I do have four inputs for HDMI and when I get my sound system/blue-ray I will need to use them, so I need to find out if it's the TV or not.

I'm off to read that thread - thanks so much! :up:


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## justapixel

Turtleboy said:


> Saying that TiVo is better than other DVRs is controversial on a Tivo forum?


That's what I was thinking!  If I was on a Direct TV DVR forum than I could be considered a troll (if I had a low post count.)

But here?


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## justapixel

shibby191 said:


> 1) Native OFF and set the resolutions to 1080i only. And then make sure it's actually in 1080i by pressing the format button and look for the light on the front of the box to be on 1080i. Some people have found it on 480i by default and a quick click of the format button and things looked 100 times better


I did this first thing.



> 2) Native OFF and set the resolution to 720p only and then make sure it's in 720p. Very well could be your TV doesn't upconvert from 1080i very well. So feed it progressive with 720p and then all it has to do it just upconvert the resolution. This *could* be the issue. Problem is that every single TV is different and you may need to play with various combinations.


I'll try this.



> And yes, a blank screen on play that is restored via a restart is a problem with the receiver. Thus why I think the HR20 is a bad box. Let's just hope you aren't unlucky and got another one.


I don't think there is a question I had a bad box. The question now is what parts were the box and what parts are my TV. Getting both at the same time complicated the issue. I'm sure the HR21 is fine, it would be too unlikely to have two bad ones in a row.

It has some funny messages on it though, I'll have to post them. Test messages from November.


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## TSpoonEars

I've had my HR21-700 for 10 days and we experienced our first failed recording tonight. Medium was recorded, but completely blank upon playback. No picture at all. A reboot didn't fix the problem. Fortunately we have it recorded on the SD-DirecTivo also. Is this what I can expect from this box though? The only problems we ever experienced with the HR10-250 were when DirecTV was futzing with the guide data to accommodate their own boxes. Never a blank recording. That smacks of buggy firmware and these boxes have been out what, over a year now if you include the HR20?

So far, I'm not impressed with the new box. It looks to me like it was designed not as a DVR but as a regular receiver with DVR functionality added on as an extra. It reminded me of my friend's Comcast DVR which has a very similar UI. I hope I don't come to regret my decision. I chose to ignore Justapixel's negative recommendation, given the overwhelming chorus of "it's quite good really", but so far I'm unimpressed. I'm hoping they improve the box, or I'll be gone as soon as my contract expires.

To me Tivo seems so much more intuitive, but I know it's a personal preference. I stuck with DirecTV due to all the new HD channels, but I really wish they'd done an MPEG4 Tivo box instead. My Tivo just worked.

Oh and I don't get how this DirecTV HD-Tivo forum has suddenly become a DirecTV fanboy forum. Any negative comments on the DirecTV box are now controversial? What's up with that? Aren't we supposed to be Tivo lovers here? How in any way can a negative comment on the DirecTV box be seen as controversial, even from a moderator? It's a personal opinion, and I for one welcome all of them as they help me make my decisions ( although this time maybe I should have listened to the negatives more - I'm reserving judgement for now though).


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## shibby191

TSpoonEars said:


> I've had my HR21-700 for 10 days and we experienced our first failed recording tonight. Medium was recorded, but completely blank upon playback. No picture at all. A reboot didn't fix the problem.


If it's blank and still won't play then it's very possible there was no signal. Make sure you get strong signals on both tuners. Most of these types of problems (recording blank period) are due to either a flakey tuner or a bad BBC connector. Could also be a flakey multiswitch or LNB. Basically the DVR recorded what it was supposed to but the signal wasn't there (almost like a rain fade situation where it will record blank).

And I know that I might get flamed for saying this but the HR10's and any DirecTivo's have the same problems from time to time. A bad tuner or bad multiswitch/LNB will effect any receiver.

Just some things to check anyway if it keeps happening. And if it does I'd recommend going over to DBSTalk for in depth troubleshooting. But just post your problem not "this POS can't record...blah...blah...blah" which will probably just be ignored. But if you post that you actually want help troubleshooting the problem then people will do so. That's part of why Justapixel didn't get much help over there as she went in with all guns blazing instead of just asking for help (sorry Ann, but true).


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## shibby191

TSpoonEars said:


> Oh and I don't get how this DirecTV HD-Tivo forum has suddenly become a DirecTV fanboy forum. Any negative comments on the DirecTV box are now controversial? What's up with that? Aren't we supposed to be Tivo lovers here? How in any way can a negative comment on the DirecTV box be seen as controversial, even from a moderator? It's a personal opinion, and I for one welcome all of them as they help me make my decisions ( although this time maybe I should have listened to the negatives more - I'm reserving judgement for now though).


Off topic but I just wanted to address it. Basically it all goes back to guys like RS4 who had/have an obvious agenda of DirecTV hatred because they no longer offered Tivo and would slam the DirecTV DVRs at every turn with untrue statements or with things that no longer applied. And so those that knew better would come here to correct the inaccuracies. In no case have I ever seen anyone claim that the HR2x doesn't have any problems. Of course it does just like any other device. It would be foolish to say otherwise.

For example, no Wishlists are often a reason to slam the HR20/21 (and with good reason for some). But are people here aware that wishlist like features are now in the HR2x and in the latest CE cycle even more were added that actually make the HR2x search very powerful and even better then Tivo wishlists in some cases? And more is planned. But things like that get drowned out by the constant attacks that DirecTv sucks no matter what they do to improve.

Anyway, my preference would be that there would be *no* DirecTV DVR+ talk here at all other then a simple link off to DBSTalk or other site and leave it at that. But of course if that actually happened there would be what, 3 new threads a week in this forum?  It would die pretty quickly. And for the new owners, all this HR20 talk just means more ad views.

Oh, and good luck!


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## TSpoonEars

shibby191 said:


> If it's blank and still won't play then it's very possible there was no signal. Make sure you get strong signals on both tuners. Most of these types of problems (recording blank period) are due to either a flakey tuner or a bad BBC connector. Could also be a flakey multiswitch or LNB. Basically the DVR recorded what it was supposed to but the signal wasn't there (almost like a rain fade situation where it will record blank).


Thanks for the help, I do appreciate it. Lack of signal was the first thing I thought too, but I was watching Jay Leno later in HD on the exact same channel with no issues. Funny thing though, I went to check signal strengths and 101, 110 and 119 were all in the 90s and it didn't show anything on 99 or 103 on either tuner, even though I was watching an MPEG4 channel. I went and tried some other MPEG4 HD channels and they were all perfect too (visibly). I'll recheck my BBCs tonight I think and maybe do another reboot.

Despite the interface issues I'm not ready to ditch it yet (heck MrsEars wanted to pick another one up the other day at Costco - she likes the remote scheduling feature and the fact the color matches all our other equipment now), although I am going to have to get a new remote - it's awkward at best. I am looking forward to more HD though, there may be 85 HD channels, but there's by no means 85 channels of content. Still, Sci-Fi HD is rather nice, I just wish Bernie would allow Formula One in HD.


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## TSpoonEars

shibby191 said:


> Anyway, my preference would be that there would be *no* DirecTV DVR+ talk here at all other then a simple link off to DBSTalk or other site and leave it at that. But of course if that actually happened there would be what, 3 new threads a week in this forum?  It would die pretty quickly. And for the new owners, all this HR20 talk just means more ad views.


This would ideally be my preference - it is a Tivo forum after all, but I hadn't thought of the ad angle. People are so helpful (mostly) here though, I do admit to liking having some HR2x discussion available.


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## RS4

shibby191 said:


> Off topic but I just wanted to address it. Basically it all goes back to guys like RS4 who had/have an obvious agenda of DirecTV hatred because they no longer offered Tivo and would slam the DirecTV DVRs at every turn with untrue statements or with things that no longer applied. And so those that knew better would come here to correct the inaccuracies. In no case have I ever seen anyone claim that the HR2x doesn't have any problems. Of course it does just like any other device. It would be foolish to say otherwise.


I don't mind pointing out that I have been a Tivo lover since the beginning. It's obvious to me from my development background - especially with large projects, that DirecTV rushed this product to market, at the same time locking in a customer with absolutely no opportunity to review the product in their own home. I pointed out the publicly spoken about hardware design choices and flaws that Direct made - such as using 3rd generation logic for OTA and then not getting the scanning to work; so that instead they had to rely on a database to tell the HR20 what channels were available instead of scanning for them. All of this was done at a time when 5th generation logic was available. I also pointed out other design flaws like not having a mechanism in place for not turning off the PIG - which a lot of people don't want.

I have continued to point to polls (including links) - none of which I created - that were on another forum showing that all conditions being equal, Tivo users prefer the Tivo over the Direct dvr.

I never once made statements that were outright lies and it is an insult for you to say that. I have even made retracting statements if what I thought to be the factual case turned out to not be. Please don't go around accusing people of lying when nothing could be further from the truth.:down:

The fact remains that DirecTV offers no choice - if you want the HD, then it's their box. They offer no trial program, and even have gone so far as to increase the penalties for trying to leave the service. I merely try to warn the Tivo user on a Tivo forum about the facts.

In fact, I have seen you guys mislead potential buyers claiming all is peaceful in HR2x land when we still constantly see people reporting problems of all kinds. It's quite clear in my mind that the Direct boxes still have quality issues that need to be dealt with. In fact, we have at least 3 folks right here in this thread that are still reporting issues. And we see these reports all over these forums.

I remind you that this is a Tivo forum regardless of the sub forum, so the majority of folks who come here know about the Tivo dvrs.

The other choice that a lot of Tivo users have that most of you fail to mention is that they can use another video supplier - even as a test. My suggestion is that you guys get off you high-horse attitude and be honest enough to recognize that Tivo users do have a choice that doesn't include your precious box - and that many of us are indeed glad that we have stuck with Tivo by leaving Direct and are extremely pleased with our choice. For you folks that don't have an alternative to Direct, my condolences. I found features such as MRV (that were held back by Direct) to be excellent and easy to use. I also found my HD selection to be huge while the quality of the video to be better than Direct in SD and as good as OTA in HD.

I feel sorry for the folks above who are unhappy with their solution. It's a shame that they have to put up with those kinds of issues for 2 years.


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## jimb726

RS4 said:


> The other choice that a lot of Tivo users have that most of you fail to mention is that they can use another video supplier - even as a test. My suggestion is that you guys get off you high-horse attitude and be honest enough to recognize that Tivo users do have a choice that doesn't include your precious box - and that many of us are indeed glad that we have stuck with Tivo by leaving Direct and are extremely pleased with our choice. For you folks that don't have an alternative to Direct, my condolences. I found features such as MRV (that were held back by Direct) to be excellent and easy to use. I also found my HD selection to be huge while the quality of the video to be better than Direct in SD and as good as OTA in HD.
> 
> I feel sorry for the folks above who are unhappy with their solution. It's a shame that they have to put up with those kinds of issues for 2 years.


While I certainly agree with the vast majority of your post I do find it ludacris that you feel "sorry" for anyone. I really do not buy into the whole DirecTv duped me into the HR2X platform. For goodness sake, 5 simple minutes on the internet would have solved the issues, and before you talk about the ones 23 months ago, their contract is up and they will be free to do what they want in the upcoming months. I really find it amazing how quickly people will blame a corporation for their own short sightedness. And while I certainly agree with your statement about most people would prefer a TiVo if offered and all things equal, I think its misleading as well. I do not recall ever seeing advertising that said, it was the same as TiVo. Depending on who you talk to the missing features may or may not be important, and that is what it has always been about. If Tivo is the choice for you, then DirecTv is not the option, if DirecTV has the programming you prefer and the mode of delivery is less important, then TiVo goes. You have certainly made plenty of statements calling the box substandard and inferior, which is always personal opinion and you made the decision to finally speak with your wallet. You have your TiVos and the programming that you want.


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## daperlman

jimb726 said:


> While I certainly agree with the vast majority of your post I do find it ludacris that you feel "sorry" for anyone.


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## jimb726

daperlman said:


>


Now thats FUNNY!! I wasnt sure if I spelled it correctly.


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## rminsk

TSpoonEars said:


> I've had my HR21-700 for 10 days and we experienced our first failed recording tonight. Medium was recorded, but completely blank upon playback. No picture at all. A reboot didn't fix the problem. Fortunately we have it recorded on the SD-DirecTivo also. Is this what I can expect from this box though? The only problems we ever experienced with the HR10-250 were when DirecTV was futzing with the guide data to accommodate their own boxes. Never a blank recording. That smacks of buggy firmware and these boxes have been out what, over a year now if you include the HR20?


I have not had a blank recording in a while but they used to be very common. What I have happening multiple times a week is a recording that will only play about half way and then gives me the delete screen. I have this on multiple HR20-700 in multiple locations (work and home). They keep on adding all the wizbang features to the unit but it still does not perform it's basic duty of being a DVR.


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## shibby191

Sigh, here we go again. 



RS4 said:


> DirecTV rushed this product to market,


I don't think anybody denies that the HR20 had multiple problems when released, going on 2 years ago now.



> I also pointed out other design flaws like not having a mechanism in place for not turning off the PIG - which a lot of people don't want.


Guess it's a "design flaw" of Tivo as well since the Comcast Tivo box also has a PIG. As does every cable DVR out there, Ultimate TV and so forth. And no option to turn it off. Just because you don't like a feature doesn't mean it's a design flaw.



> I have continued to point to polls (including links) - none of which I created - that were on another forum showing that all conditions being equal, Tivo users prefer the Tivo over the Direct dvr.


So what? Really, what does that have to do with anything. Wow, Tivo users prefer a Tivo interface. News flash. You keep harping on polls when the response to the polls is always "ummm, yea, big deal". I could do a poll right now on do you prefer Windows or Mac and I'd bet that Windows wins out just because of numbers. That certainly doesn't mean that Mac is bad in any way. Or maybe Mac wins the poll. Does that mean that Windows totally sucks? A poll on what someone prefers is simply that, an opinion.



> The fact remains that DirecTV offers no choice - if you want the HD, then it's their box. They offer no trial program, and even have gone so far as to increase the penalties for trying to leave the service. I merely try to warn the Tivo user on a Tivo forum about the facts.


Excellent. Stick to the facts and you'll be fine. The fact is just as you state. But when you continue to say that the DirecTV DVR sucks well....



> In fact, I have seen you guys mislead potential buyers claiming all is peaceful in HR2x land when we still constantly see people reporting problems of all kinds. It's quite clear in my mind that the Direct boxes still have quality issues that need to be dealt with. In fact, we have at least 3 folks right here in this thread that are still reporting issues. And we see these reports all over these forums.


Who misleads? Duh, some people have problems. And duh, some people don't have problems. Gee, just like Tivo. People have problems and people don't. Imagine that.



> The other choice that a lot of Tivo users have that most of you fail to mention is that they can use another video supplier - even as a test. My suggestion is that you guys get off you high-horse attitude and be honest enough to recognize that Tivo users do have a choice that doesn't include your precious box - and that many of us are indeed glad that we have stuck with Tivo by leaving Direct and are extremely pleased with our choice.


It's pretty obvious there are choices. Cable/Fios and Tivo HD or Series 3. And many people point that out all the time, including those who you call DirecTV fanboys. If DirecTV was the end all be all then everyone would be with them. Same said for cable. But they aren't, it's called competition. If you have a decent cable option that offers you the channels you want *and* you can't live without the Tivo UI then you'd be a moron not to make the jump to cable and get Tivo. I personally always point this out to anyone on the fence. Life is too short to be pissed off over TV. Go with what makes you happy, whatever that choice is.

But then you need to realize that many people are also happy with DirecTV and the HR20/21 platform.



> I feel sorry for the folks above who are unhappy with their solution. It's a shame that they have to put up with those kinds of issues for 2 years.


It was my choice to make. But then I make informed decisions. I don't feel sorry for people who don't at least do a little bit of research before making a 2 year commitment to something that costs lots of money.


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## 20TIL6

<<I am looking forward to more HD though, there may be 85 HD channels, but there's by no means 85 channels of content.>>

Be careful. I've said the same thing over and over. And HiDefGator says I'm making it up, or just saying it to make myself feel better. Whatever that means.


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## rickmeoff

rminsk said:


> I have not had a blank recording in a while but they used to be very common. What I have happening multiple times a week is a recording that will only play about half way and then gives me the delete screen. I have this on multiple HR20-700 in multiple locations (work and home). They keep on adding all the wizbang features to the unit but it still does not perform it's basic duty of being a DVR.


i still have the same problem and have simply written it off as part of owning the hr20. hopefully theyll eventually get it fixed, but as long as i expect it (and have backup dvrs), it doesnt bother me as much as it used to.

should i have to 'settle?' no, but ive played the back and forth tennis match with the dtv csrs many times, and had the unit replaced several times with the exact same result.


----------



## rminsk

rickmeoff said:


> i still have the same problem and have simply written it off as part of owning the hr20. hopefully theyll eventually get it fixed, but as long as i expect it (and have backup dvrs), it doesnt bother me as much as it used to.


Why should you have to settle? DirecTV should stop adding any new features to the HR2X and just concentrate on getting the core DVR functions working. I would like to be able to turn off my HR10-250 and save the mirroring fee every month but I still must have it connected to serve as a backup.


----------



## rickmeoff

i agree with you, but what are my options? ive wasted hours on the phone with dtv, and gone through 3 replacement dvrs, so its hw related.

im stuck, and hafta wait until its fixed.


----------



## 20TIL6

RS4 said:


> I don't mind pointing out that I have been a Tivo lover since the beginning. It's obvious to me from my development background - especially with large projects, that DirecTV rushed this product to market, at the same time locking in a customer with absolutely no opportunity to review the product in their own home. I pointed out the publicly spoken about hardware design choices and flaws that Direct made - such as using 3rd generation logic for OTA and then not getting the scanning to work; so that instead they had to rely on a database to tell the HR20 what channels were available instead of scanning for them. All of this was done at a time when 5th generation logic was available. I also pointed out other design flaws like not having a mechanism in place for not turning off the PIG - which a lot of people don't want.
> 
> I have continued to point to polls (including links) - none of which I created - that were on another forum showing that all conditions being equal, Tivo users prefer the Tivo over the Direct dvr.
> 
> I never once made statements that were outright lies and it is an insult for you to say that. I have even made retracting statements if what I thought to be the factual case turned out to not be. Please don't go around accusing people of lying when nothing could be further from the truth.:down:
> 
> The fact remains that DirecTV offers no choice - if you want the HD, then it's their box. They offer no trial program, and even have gone so far as to increase the penalties for trying to leave the service. I merely try to warn the Tivo user on a Tivo forum about the facts.
> 
> In fact, I have seen you guys mislead potential buyers claiming all is peaceful in HR2x land when we still constantly see people reporting problems of all kinds. It's quite clear in my mind that the Direct boxes still have quality issues that need to be dealt with. In fact, we have at least 3 folks right here in this thread that are still reporting issues. And we see these reports all over these forums.
> 
> I remind you that this is a Tivo forum regardless of the sub forum, so the majority of folks who come here know about the Tivo dvrs.
> 
> The other choice that a lot of Tivo users have that most of you fail to mention is that they can use another video supplier - even as a test. My suggestion is that you guys get off you high-horse attitude and be honest enough to recognize that Tivo users do have a choice that doesn't include your precious box - and that many of us are indeed glad that we have stuck with Tivo by leaving Direct and are extremely pleased with our choice. For you folks that don't have an alternative to Direct, my condolences. I found features such as MRV (that were held back by Direct) to be excellent and easy to use. I also found my HD selection to be huge while the quality of the video to be better than Direct in SD and as good as OTA in HD.
> 
> I feel sorry for the folks above who are unhappy with their solution. It's a shame that they have to put up with those kinds of issues for 2 years.


:up::up::up: That's about all I can add to that.


----------



## magnus

Lighten up Francis.



Mark Lopez said:


> Well, I guess things have changed. I recall at least one former moderator loosing his position for expressing his opinions. And I recall the big debate then about moderators getting involved (taking sides) in controversial topics and (at the time) there was an overwhelming consensus that moderators should not be doing that. But again, that was back before this forum had it's cliques. <shrug>


----------



## RS4

jimb726 said:


> Now thats FUNNY!! I wasnt sure if I spelled it correctly.


I'm assuming the gentleman in the pic is the way you spelled the word. I took the time to look it up for you spelling


----------



## shibby191

rickmeoff said:


> i agree with you, but what are my options? ive wasted hours on the phone with dtv, and gone through 3 replacement dvrs, so its hw related.
> 
> im stuck, and hafta wait until its fixed.


If you want to switch to cable why don't you give them a call? Most will buy out whatever you owe on your commitment. Comcast runs those ads all the time. They will fall all over themselves to get you to switch. Why be unhappy, see what cable will do for you.


----------



## rickmeoff

shibby191 said:


> If you want to switch to cable why don't you give them a call? Most will buy out whatever you owe on your commitment. Comcast runs those ads all the time. They will fall all over themselves to get you to switch. Why be unhappy, see what cable will do for you.


why dont _you_ switch to cable?  i never said i was unhappy with dtv. i have several hr10s along with my hr20.......which i like very much.....but it fcuks up quite a bit, thus my response to rminsk.

and as ive mentioned before, cable would be cost prohibitive. im not gonna lay out the $$ for 4 thd units + our 3 sd tvs.

dtv is working on the unit, and if ever they get their sh*t together itll be quite adequate.


----------



## codespy

rminsk said:


> ....I have this on multiple HR20-700 in multiple locations (work and home).....


Hope that doesn't violate DirecTV's residential programming agreement if account listed as such while being used in commercial environment. Hear they have been cracking down on that.


----------



## rminsk

codespy said:


> Hope that doesn't violate DirecTV's residential programming agreement if account listed as such while being used in commercial environment. Hear they have been cracking down on that.


This is on multiple accounts.


----------



## jimb726

RS4 said:


> I'm assuming the gentleman in the pic is the way you spelled the word. I took the time to look it up for you spelling


Damn it, I spelled it correctly twice and it just didnt look right.  You got me.:up:


----------



## jimb726

shibby191 said:


> If you want to switch to cable why don't you give them a call? Most will buy out whatever you owe on your commitment. Comcast runs those ads all the time. They will fall all over themselves to get you to switch. Why be unhappy, see what cable will do for you.


Funny you mention that, yesterday when I got home from work there was a flyer from Armstrong Cable, they offered to buy out my contract with DirecTV, set me up with what they called comparable equipment, internet, phone, etc. And they would guarantee me a price for cable that was 50% of my DirecTV bill for 18 months. Now I didnt even solicit them, I used to have them for the first 3 months when we moved to our new house, but we switched back to DirecTV very quickly. I wonder if this is a cableco trend?


----------



## RS4

jimb726 said:


> Funny you mention that, yesterday when I got home from work there was a flyer from Armstrong Cable, they offered to buy out my contract with DirecTV, set me up with what they called comparable equipment, internet, phone, etc. And they would guarantee me a price for cable that was 50% of my DirecTV bill for 18 months. Now I didnt even solicit them, I used to have them for the first 3 months when we moved to our new house, but we switched back to DirecTV very quickly. I wonder if this is a cableco trend?


That appears to be a generous offer. I'm curious. Do you have FIOS in your area or other competition? I've read reports that say a lot of FIOS customers come from Direct. I wonder if they are trying to get you back before you might switch to FIOS, or if they just feel the pressure from all of the Direct HD channels.


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> That appears to be a generous offer. I'm curious. Do you have FIOS in your area or other competition? I've read reports that say a lot of FIOS customers come from Direct. I wonder if they are trying to get you back before you might switch to FIOS, or if they just feel the pressure from all of the Direct HD channels.


All 3 major cable companies around here (Comcast, Time Warner and Charter) have similar offers and there isn't FIOS within 200 miles and probably will never be. I think it's just the continuing competition which is good for everyone. Besides, cable companies have been doing various "ditch the dish" programs for years so it's nothing new. They are just getting agressive again on it because they are bleeding customers like crazy while FIOS, Dish and DirecTV continue to grow. They need to do something.


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> All 3 major cable companies around here (Comcast, Time Warner and Charter) have similar offers and there isn't FIOS within 200 miles and probably will never be. I think it's just the continuing competition which is good for everyone. Besides, cable companies have been doing various "ditch the dish" programs for years so it's nothing new. They are just getting agressive again on it because they are bleeding customers like crazy while FIOS, Dish and DirecTV continue to grow. They need to do something.


Well, I agree with you that competition is a very strong motivator. Did you by chance calculate the value of that package?


----------



## jimb726

RS4 said:


> That appears to be a generous offer. I'm curious. Do you have FIOS in your area or other competition? I've read reports that say a lot of FIOS customers come from Direct. I wonder if they are trying to get you back before you might switch to FIOS, or if they just feel the pressure from all of the Direct HD channels.


Nothing at all. I am in a small township, I am told the Verizon will not for the foreseeable future be making it to my area. I am about 30 miles south of Cleveland. Now I do know that U-Verse is just a few counties away from me, but I dont know if they have plans out my way either. I have noticed that in my developmnent, at least 4 other people have gone with satellite since the summer, presumably for Sunday Ticket. My wife did say that the rep mentioned that while the current channle lineup was lite on HD, they were expanding it dramatically soon. I just found it interesting that right off the bat they offered to pay of my contract and guarantee my rate for 18 month. Actually if my wife wasnt so hooked on DirecTv I might consider it. But all things equal I am happy.


----------



## Texceo

Jebberwocky! said:


> why would a downgrade in his remote help?


Downgrade! The Pronto is not a downgrade.


----------



## justapixel

So, I haven't posted in this thread for a while. I've had few glitches with my HR21. One or two incidents of pixelation, one sound freakout, but nothing else.

Until tonight. I went to watch LOST, and I have that empty thing again. It appears to have recorded but when I go to play it, there is a blank screen and nothing happens. The menu bar comes up and it appears to have "stuck" it's record at 1:02.

I have tried the other shows I recorded tonight and they are fine. But, Lost isn't there.

I will reboot and see if that helps. Was there any known problems with the HD channel in my area? How do I find out? 

If there wasn't, I have to say this:

I'm sorry Direct TV lovers. That means your box is a POS.

I've had two now. It's not my TV, it's their box. It's unreliable. I'm so sorry I changed. But, I am going to call them with each and every problem and document it all. If and when I leave, I won't be paying their fees because I've never gotten what they promised me - a DVR that actually records things. They can send out a new box and a new repair guy each week until they get it right.

Thank goodness I still have my trusty TiVo. I've mirrored all my important recordings, so when this happens, I still have it in SD. 

It's ridiculous that I have to do that, but I do.


----------



## bpratt

> Thank goodness I still have my trusty TiVo. I've mirrored all my important recordings, so when this happens, I still have it in SD.
> 
> It's ridiculous that I have to do that, but I do.


I've mirrored all my important recordings on an HD TiVo (HR10-250) and had to use that a few times. So I can still watch my recordings in HD. I'm really getting tired of having to babysit this POS.


----------



## Jon J

I wonder if there is any possible way to correlate those persons seemingly having endless problems with their DirecTV DVRs. It seems some people have continual problems but other of us never do.

My HR20-700 has been flawless. According to many posts here I'm almost unique.


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> Was there any known problems with the HD channel in my area? How do I find out?


AVS Forum has the HDTV locals forum. There is a thread for every DMA in the country. Find yours and ask.


----------



## jimb726

Jon J said:


> I wonder if there is any possible way to correlate those persons seemingly having endless problems with their DirecTV DVRs. It seems some people have continual problems but other of us never do.
> 
> My HR20-700 has been flawless. According to many posts here I'm almost unique.


Your'e not unique, I think its a well known axiom that says 1 person out of 10 will tell someone else they are happy with a product, but 10 people will tell 10 each if something is wrong. Then you factor in the emotions over TiVo separation. and that just further muddies the waters.


----------



## bigpuma

Jon J said:


> I wonder if there is any possible way to correlate those persons seemingly having endless problems with their DirecTV DVRs. It seems some people have continual problems but other of us never do.
> 
> My HR20-700 has been flawless. According to many posts here I'm almost unique.


You are not unique both my HR20 and my HR21 have been working flawlessly. People don't start threads to say their DVR recorded programs as expected.


----------



## bpratt

jimb726 said:


> Your'e not unique, I think its a well known axiom that says 1 person out of 10 will tell someone else they are happy with a product, but 10 people will tell 10 each if something is wrong. Then you factor in the emotions over TiVo separation. and that just further muddies the waters.


I'm not one who feels any emotions over TiVo separation. My first DVRs were ReplayTV and I feel the HR21 interface is very close to the Replay interface which I like. In fact, there are several things about the HR21 that I like better than the TiVo.

I have only had my two HR21-700s for a little over two weeks. During that time I have had audio problems, the picture breaking up on both live and recorded shows, and a black recording. One night I was watching the national news in HD through one of my HR21s. All of a sudden the picture broke up and then went completely black. I turned on my other TV and my other HR21 and tuned to the same channel. The picture there was fine, but the picture on my first HR21 stayed black until I changed off then back on the channel.

I did not intend to keep both of my HR10-250s active, but feel I need to because of the unreliability so far of the HR21s.


----------



## jimb726

bpratt said:


> I'm not one who feels any emotions over TiVo separation. My first DVRs were ReplayTV and I feel the HR21 interface is very close to the Replay interface which I like. In fact, there are several things about the HR21 that I like better than the TiVo.
> 
> I have only had my two HR21-700s for a little over two weeks. During that time I have had audio problems, the picture breaking up on both live and recorded shows, and a black recording. One night I was watching the national news in HD through one of my HR21s. All of a sudden the picture broke up and then went completely black. I turned on my other TV and my other HR21 and tuned to the same channel. The picture there was fine, but the picture on my first HR21 stayed black until I changed off then back on the channel.
> 
> I did not intend to keep both of my HR10-250s active, but feel I need to because of the unreliability so far of the HR21s.


And I certainly respect that, my comment was directed more to Jon who said that he feels in the minority because his hasnt had issues. Mine hadn't had any either until last week when it would freeze up. Promptly switched out and fine since. I just think that forums are naturally a place to come and air out issues and problems. Very rarely will you see a thread for any product that starts out with the words "I love my.....". You see plenty that will say they hate it though. I think both sides are way to quick to either place blame or defend. The truth is somewhere in between, most units perform the way people want them to, and at the other end of the spectrum lies the forum groups with all good or all bad things to say.


----------



## justapixel

jimb726 said:


> Very rarely will you see a thread for any product that starts out with the words "I love my.....".


For the most part, I think you are right. Except, this forum was created because people LOVED their TiVos. Not because they had problems with them.

My problem isn't TiVo separation either, although I know you didn't point to me. Like I said before, I really am not that brand-loyal. If a product does what I want it to do in the way I expect, I'm happy. All I want a DVR to do is record my shows accurately and play them back.

This product doesn't. With two now, it's unmistakable.

I would like to know the percentage of people actually have an HR/X that works flawlessly, as you say yours does, as opposed to the number of people who have the problems I have but being new DVR users, don't know that it's not normal.

I rebooted and Lost isn't there, so this appears to be a different problem than the one I had before, which rebooting fixed.

I checked the Sacramento thread on AVS and nobody else reported a problem or that the feed was down, so it's my POS.


----------



## Shistar

I believe the HR21 100 was just released. You may want to call them and see if they will send you one.


----------



## gio1269

justapixel said:


> Thank goodness I still have my trusty TiVo.


Thank goodness I gave up my POS Tivo HR10-250 (post 6.x updates that TIVO F* up!) and mine does not start-up, now misses recording and overall is slooow. That's with a new HDD and updated. 

Hy HR20-700 and HR20-100 have YET to miss a recording in almost 2 yrs come July.


----------



## HazelW

justapixel said:


> For the most part, I think you are right. Except, this forum was created because people LOVED their TiVos. Not because they had problems with them.
> 
> My problem isn't TiVo separation either, although I know you didn't point to me. Like I said before, I really am not that brand-loyal. If a product does what I want it to do in the way I expect, I'm happy. All I want a DVR to do is record my shows accurately and play them back.
> 
> This product doesn't. With two now, it's unmistakable.
> 
> I would like to know the percentage of people actually have an HR/X that works flawlessly, as you say yours does, as opposed to the number of people who have the problems I have but being new DVR users, don't know that it's not normal.
> 
> I rebooted and Lost isn't there, so this appears to be a different problem than the one I had before, which rebooting fixed.
> 
> I checked the Sacramento thread on AVS and nobody else reported a problem or that the feed was down, so it's my POS.


This is the biggest problem for D* customers wanting to decide if they should get the HR2X or switch to another service. There are so many reports of problems but they are somewhat offset by posts from people who have no problems. And unfortunately, you can't try it for yourself without a two year commitment. Very confusing.


----------



## kkluba

I had two HR10-250's for several years. I liked them a lot. Couldn't dream of going with a Comcast motorola box or the ATT Uverse work in progress.. Directv started calling last December and I finally took the plunge to get the new dish and receivers in January. All free, no charge. I had to go to battle to get the HR20 instead of the 21. 

I wouldn't say they have worked flawlessly but I will say they have worked no worse or better than the HDTivo for basic recording and season pass stuff. There are things I like less and things I like more. The caller-id has worked perfectly and that was a hack/hassle with my HDTivo.

I don't record OTA much either with the HR20 or HR10. That was always problematic and not worth the trouble for me. I'm not sure why your having so much trouble JustaPixel? Seems you've had more than your fair share of problems.

One other thing.. replacing drives on the HR20/21 is a breeze whether you do external or internal. Adding a TB of space was never so easy.


----------



## justapixel

Shistar said:


> I believe the HR21 100 was just released. You may want to call them and see if they will send you one.


I have the HR21 700...this is newer?

I missed Lost last week. Black screen.

I missed American Idol tonight. But, I think I know what happened - we had a lockup on the channel, it would seem. When we went to List and tried to play Idol, another channel was on the screen. It was locked up. Idol appeared to be recording but we couldn't play it. We could fast-forward but we only saw a black screen. When we got to the end, we exited to the channel unpaused, and then it started playing Idol, at 23 minutes in.

So, this is just a guess on my part - the tuner doesn't change the channel properly or locks up on a previous and it records nothing, and that's why the black screen.

Of course, it doesn't explain while watching Survivor the picture broke up most of the show.

I called Direct TV to complain. The only thing they could offer me was to wipe the Hard Drive.

I didn't know about another other HD Direct TV box.  I am having them document all my calls, and I'm calling every time I have a problem. I am going to look into Comcast and going back to TiVo, much as I hate to go to cable.

I am about to watch Lost. It starts, at least. This week.


----------



## verdugan

justapixel said:


> The HR20 has been problematic. I don't believe I've watched one show that hasn't had some sort of noise or audio drop.


Mine just started dropping the audio. At first I thought it was one or two channels, but it's happening more and more. /me thinks it's time to call customer service.


----------



## Jon J

justapixel said:


> I would like to know the percentage of people actually have an HR/X that works flawlessly...


<Frantically waving hand>

Me. Me. Me. Mine has worked flawlessly from installation.


----------



## Indiana627

justapixel said:


> I would like to know the percentage of people actually have an HR/X that works flawlessly


My HR20-100 has worked great since I got it in June 2007.


----------



## jimb726

Jon J said:


> <Frantically waving hand>
> 
> Me. Me. Me. Mine has worked flawlessly from installation.


I havent had any issues that I have not been able to trace back to something else. I was getting intermittent pixelization and drop outs, it turned out to be a bad LNB, new dish and LNB, problem was gone. I had another issue that a firmware update to my TV corrected. The thing that is just mind boggling to me is the variabilty, I have no reason to doubt the folks that have been having the issues any more than I doubt those who say they havent. And I dont buy the argument that those who say they have not had issues are just making excuses or lying. I know for myself, if I felt that I was getting shafted I certainly wouldnt be covering for DirecTV.


----------



## codespy

Indiana627 said:


> My HR20-100 has worked great since I got it in June 2007.


I've had some audio dropouts and lip synch issues, but for the most part OK since 10-1-07.

Then I networked it a month ago and BAM-762 nag. Couldn't shake it.

They sent me a brand new unit. Working better now.


----------



## Scooter

I think these things are much more finicky about having excellent quality coaxial connections for MPEG4 transmission - all the way from the dish to the receiver. Make sure your dish is aligned very well. I'd be willing to put good money on it that most of the problems found are related to poor cabling. I've found that my HR21 is a real finicky SOB about cable connections. However, I'm also having dish alignment problems right now. It's making my HR21 act really stupid with 771 errors on my local channels. Keep in mind that TiVo (D-TiVo and the HD version) doesn't have to deal with MPEG4 channels, so we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples here. 

Scooter


----------



## TyroneShoes

Scooter said:


> I think these things are much more finicky about having excellent quality coaxial connections for MPEG4 transmission...


That's the textbook definition of superstitious thinking...following a theory with no basis in fact to guide your behavior.

If you actually think about this, a DBS reception system is composed of many modules, each of which has its own tasks, and each of which has no intelligence whatsoever regarding the other modules' tasks. The only part of a DBS system that can care at all or even recognize whether the encoding scheme is MPEG-4 or something else, is the decoder chip. Nothing before or after in the processing chain has any idea how the information is encoded, and also doesn't care. It also does not change the way DVB signals are transmitted or modulated. Way back before the decoder chip in the L-band signal that travels through the cables, there could not possibly be anything regarding the nature of the encoding that could make a difference one way or another.

Ka is different than Ku, but that's something else again, and other than the necessity for wider bandwidth, that also has no real impact on what in either case is L-band transport from dish to receiver, and also does not increase tolerances for RG-6 cabling. Tolerance for dish aiming might be greater for Ka, but a well-aimed dish is a well-aimed dish, even though a poorly-aimed dish tolerates things a little better as Ku than Ka. That also does not impact L-band transport.

I'm not trying to bust your balls, just trying to help. There's no disgrace in being uniformed about something (I actually even thought invading Iraq might work out OK for about a minute and a half in March of 2003-- but then my alarm clock went off and I woke up) even if you might be reeeeeeeeally reeeeeeeally off base. The only disgrace involved is acting on specious beliefs, which is nothing more than a waste of time.


----------



## shibby191

TyroneShoes said:


> That's the textbook definition of superstitious thinking...following a theory with no basis in fact to guide your behavior.
> 
> If you actually think about this, a DBS reception system is composed of many modules, each of which has its own tasks, and each of which has no intelligence whatsoever regarding the other modules' tasks. The only part of a DBS system that can care at all or even recognize whether the encoding scheme is MPEG-4 or something else, is the decoder chip. Nothing before or after in the processing chain has any idea how the information is encoded, and also doesn't care. It also does not change the way DVB signals are transmitted or modulated. Way back before the decoder chip in the L-band signal that travels through the cables, there could not possibly be anything regarding the nature of the encoding that could make a difference one way or another.
> 
> Ka is different than Ku, but that's something else again, and other than the necessity for wider bandwidth, that also has no real impact on what in either case is L-band transport from dish to receiver, and also does not increase tolerances for RG-6 cabling. Tolerance for dish aiming might be greater for Ka, but a well-aimed dish is a well-aimed dish, even though a poorly-aimed dish tolerates things a little better as Ku than Ka. That also does not impact L-band transport.
> 
> I'm not trying to bust your balls, just trying to help. There's no disgrace in being uniformed about something (I actually even thought invading Iraq might work out OK for about a minute and a half in March of 2003-- but then my alarm clock went off and I woke up) even if you might be reeeeeeeeally reeeeeeeally off base. The only disgrace involved is acting on specious beliefs, which is nothing more than a waste of time.


Actually there is some basis of truth for this. Over on the DBSTalk in the installation and hardware forum especially where some installers even post there have been quite a few cases where after upgrading to the 5 LNB dish and new MPEG4 hardware things are really "buggy" (including problems that Ann has been having) until the connectors are changed/fixed or just plain swapped out or new cables run. Not saying that is the case with anyone's problems here but it is in fact the cause of quite a few issues and the problems go away when the connectors are changed or cables swapped out.


----------



## incog-neato

Once I got past the first 2 bad ones  my 3rd one has been perfect for about 4 months. It's an HR20-700 (the original one was a new HR21 which died in 2 days, the second one was a used HR20 which evidently had a bad hard drive and the 3rd one was also a used HR20 which has been perfect (I have an endless supply of replacements available should I need them  ). I still don't have enough confidence in it to replace my "main" HR10 on my PDP. RIght now it's in my office connected to my 24" LCD computer screen. 95% of what I watch is OTA anyway so while the new HD programming is nice, to ME it's not important enough to swap.


justapixel said:


> I would like to know the percentage of people actually have an HR/X that works flawlessly, as you say yours does, as opposed to the number of people who have the problems I have but being new DVR users, don't know that it's not normal.


----------



## funinthesun

TyroneShoes said:


> *I'm not* trying to bust your balls, just trying to help.
> 
> The only disgrace involved is *[not]* acting on *specious beliefs*, which is *nothing more than a waste of time*.


What terrible grammer you have. You also mispelled "I am" and "empirical facts" and "caring, noble and very un-selfish".


----------



## bpratt

> Ka is different than Ku, but that's something else again, and other than the necessity for wider bandwidth, that also has no real impact on what in either case is L-band transport from dish to receiver, and also does not increase tolerances for RG-6 cabling.


That statement is wrong. The 3 LNB dish which only transmitted Ku band stuff only required an RG6 cable that would handle about 500 mhz of bandwidth where the 5 LNB dish requires 2 ghz or more. The RG6 cable and all components from the new 5 LNB dish need to support 2.5 ghz or more. A lot of the RG6 cable and cable components made 3 or more years ago were only rated at 1 ghz.
Since the switch in the new 5 LNB dish requires more current than did the 3 LNB dish, a solid copper center wire is required to handle that additional current. You may have gotten away with a copper clad center wire on the single or 3 LNB dish, but it is not wise to try to use that wire on the new 5 LNB dish.
For more information watch Part 4 of the following videos:
http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/at9_install_videos.asp


----------



## incog-neato

It's GRAMMAR not grammer.  He who throws stones should put tape on his windows.


funinthesun said:


> What terrible grammer you have. You also mispelled "I am" and "empirical facts" and "caring, noble and very un-selfish".


----------



## funinthesun

incog-neato said:


> It's GRAMMAR not grammer.  He who throws stones should put tape on his windows.


It's THEIR windows. Not his windows.

Whats wrong with your grammer?


----------



## incog-neato

Should have been the Cingular <sic> "his window."


funinthesun said:


> It's THEIR windows. Not his windows.
> 
> Whats wrong with your grammer?


----------



## llarch

Here is my recent experience moving from an HR10 to HR21;

My first weekend's experience;

LIKES:

1. I like the media share function (but wish the video would play more than just Mpeg2)
2. The VOD function is kind of cool, a bit clunky, but better than nothing
3. Like the overall speed/perf
4. Really like the easy hard drive upgrade
5. Nice box design/appearance
6. Enjoying all the extra HD channels
7. PQ seems very good, native resolution pass-through must help
8. Like remote booking/scheduling
9. Looking forward to MRV.

DISLIKES:

1. The UI, in particular the location of functions, is a complete disaster (compared to TiVo). I know this may be a function of what I was used to, but wow, what a difference in the negative

OTHER:
Haven't really missed the DLBs, don't watch much sports.

Haven't recorded enough to comment on accuracy.

Haven't had them long enough to comment on stability, but so far so good.


----------



## shibby191

llarch said:


> 1. I like the media share function (but wish the video would play more than just Mpeg2)


If you use a media server like Tversity you can play pretty much anything including Xvid and MOV and just about anything else you can think of. DBSTalk has tons of resources for you on this.


----------



## justapixel

I'm bumping this thread. My problems have continued. Today I had my second service call, after numerous phone calls - I call each time a show doesn't record or I can't view more than ten minutes of it because of pixelation or sound issues. And, that's quite a bit.

I've been doing that and documenting what happens so I can get out of my contract. My box has randomly missed quite a few shows, including two American Idol results shows, the Riches, a Survivor...more I can't remember. One of my "Dexters" was pixellated for the last 10 minutes of the show, so was an HBO special. Not a single recorded show doesn't have some issue.

I had a very enlightening talk with the very nice, intelligent (and gorgeous) tech. He said he'd been doing his job for five years and since the new box came out, his service calls had jumped 400 percent. He says in ten calls he gets a day, 7 of them are problems similar to mine, and he can't fix them; nobody can. He was very frustrated because he can't get any answers from DirectTV about when the known problems with this unit will be fixed. He did say that talk between the techs indicates that the boxes have an electrical problem - that if a phone line is plugged in (my isn't) they experience more problems, and that if it's plugged into older wiring (mine is, but is also plugged into an UPS) it can happen too. But, there is no universal agreement about what the problem is and DirectTV doesn't seem to care.

He said a management/engineer type from Direct TV came out to talk to them and my tech started asking him questions about all the problems he sees - and the guy had no answers - he didn't know. He said internally, they all blame each other - they blame the broadcasters, or the installers.

He says he won't upgrade to one himself.

He did tell me that both of my previous boxes had been refurbished - sometimes he checks and they've been in up to seven other homes - and that could also be an issue. He said that Direct TV doesn't like to give out the non-refurbs to older customers and that I would likely have to speak to a manager or call retention to get one. The CSRs don't have the ability to make that happen.

He did replace my LNB because Direct TV had asked it, but he says everything was fine with the old one and he didn't believe it would solve my problem. We chatted for quite a while and then he left. He was so smart and he confirmed what I already suspected - that it is 100% the design of the box that is causing all the problems.

He called me a few minutes later, said he'd been talking to somebody he works with, and they had a few brand new (not refurb) boxes in the warehouse and he was willing to get me one because I was a nice lady.  (That's what you get called when you get old. lol.  ) 

He told me to cancel the service call and reschedule and ask for a new box. He gave me symptoms to give them that would get me the new box - all of them I'd been experiencing but some I didn't know I had. (Like, the box being too hot and the HD being full with not enough recorded shows to warrant it --I never knew on this box how many shows it should have). He gave me the number of his company, not Direct TV.

So, I have rescheduled for next week and hopefully the same tech will come out - and I'll get a new box. I hate having to set up all my season passes - again - and lose all the shows I've recorded. But, this will be the last time with Direct TV - next call will be to cancel and choose a different company. 

He did tell me AT&T was coming out with fiber and a DVR that will record up to six shows at a time. It's already in Roseville, I think he said. Hopefully, it'll be in my area soon!


----------



## stevel

Ann, I'd guess that your problems are largely related to poor refurbs, rather than an inherent defect in the HR20.  I've seen similar complaints from standalone TiVo users who got refurb after refurb that failed. My own experience with TiVo refurbs (S1 DTiVos) was good, but that was a long time ago. I'll also comment that my HR20 was brand new, not a refurb, but I got it last July before the flood of TiVo conversions.

So far, my HR20 and HR21 have both been flawless. Here's hoping you find a satisfactory resolution.


----------



## newsposter

6 tuners would be nice. I'd go with that when it comes to your area. I've learned to not record any shows from the 110 on my HR20 since it has tuner 2 issues but otherwise everything is recording just fine. But i hate the delay when you FF or rewind that was recently introduced.


----------



## Avenger

funinthesun said:


> It's THEIR windows. Not his windows.
> 
> Whats wrong with your grammer?


No, in that sentence, it IS "his." And it's only "grammer" if your first name is Kelsey.  Otherwise, it's "grammar."


----------



## verdugan

Avenger said:


> No, in that sentence, it IS "his." And it's only "grammer" if your first name is Kelsey.  Otherwise, it's "grammar."


<JOY>OHHH SNAP</JOY>


----------



## TSpoonEars

stevel said:


> Ann, I'd guess that your problems are largely related to poor refurbs, rather than an inherent defect in the HR20.
> 
> So far, my HR20 and HR21 have both been flawless. Here's hoping you find a satisfactory resolution.


I'd just like to say, that my HR21 was new. Mine is most certainly is not flawless. In fact the only thing better than the HR10 is that it records the MPEG4 channels in HD. Oh, and it looks pretty. Here's my laundry list of complaints:

1) Missed recordings: We've had whole folders just disappear with nothing in the history - the last update deleted the folder of Dexter with 5 shows. Nothing in the history. Just tonight it missed the season finale of New Amsterdam. The history said: 'This recording was cancelled due to unexpected error (3)'.

2) Blank recordings. We've had two shows of medium just blank. I doubt they film in coal mines regularly in Arizona.

3) Sluggish response. Most people seem to say it's more responsive than the HR10. In my experience it's less responsive and the trick-play is just not fast at all. It makes for a very poor experience, certainly compared to the HR10. Granted setting up season passes is fast, but that's only because the work gets done in the background, which means you have to keep rechecking it to see if you messed up with a conflict.

4) Picture-in-picture. WTF? Who needs picture in picture on a DVR? Several times we've had shows and sports games spoiled because the tuner was on that channel when we started to watch a show while still recording. There should at least be an option to turn it off. I can't see any benefit to it at all.

If this DVR can't do the basic things like record my shows, what good is OnDemand and Mediashare? It's like putting lipstick on a pig.

Anyway, I just wanted to say Ann isn't alone with her woes. We are starting to regret being with DirecTV after being happy and loyal customers for the last 6 years.


----------



## stevel

I don't have any of those problems with my HR21. As for PIP, I can take it or leave it, but it is a feature, not a flaw and many people like it.

OnDemand is nice and I see a lot of standard TiVo owners complaining that they can't use their cable company's OnDemand feature. It's especially great if you want to catch up on a series you came in on in the middle. MediaShare I have used and I like, though I wish it were faster. Standalone TiVos have something similar.

If you want to complain about the HR21, then stick to the things it is doing wrong for you, and leave the other features out of it.


----------



## RS4

stevel said:


> I don't have any of those problems with my HR21. As for PIP, I can take it or leave it, but it is a feature, not a flaw and many people like it.
> 
> OnDemand is nice and I see a lot of standard TiVo owners complaining that they can't use their cable company's OnDemand feature. It's especially great if you want to catch up on a series you came in on in the middle. MediaShare I have used and I like, though I wish it were faster. Standalone TiVos have something similar.
> 
> *If you want to complain about the HR21, then stick to the things it is doing wrong for you, and leave the other features out of it.*


I've got an idea - why don't you just write his complaint for him? That way, he'll say it exactly like you want him to


----------



## Mark Lopez

TSpoonEars said:


> 3) Sluggish response. Most people seem to say it's more responsive than the HR10. In my experience it's less responsive and the trick-play is just not fast at all. It makes for a very poor experience, certainly compared to the HR10. Granted setting up season passes is fast, but that's only because the work gets done in the background, which means you have to keep rechecking it to see if you messed up with a conflict.


If your unit is anywhere near as slow as an HR10, it probably has a problem. As for the SL links being done in the background, I've always had it tell me I had a conflict as soon as I create the SL. Now, conficts do occur later if times change etc. (just as they do with the HR10) but IMO it's also a lot easier to spot them in the To Do list.


----------



## newsposter

Mark Lopez said:


> As for the SL links being done in the background, I've always had it tell me I had a conflict as soon as I create the SL.


then you've been lucky. I've already made a SL for a show that is on every weekday at the same time then had the 1st one record just fine but even if you go to Todo right away it shows the others as not being recorded right away. Then later on when it catches up, you will see a week or so out that there is a conflict.

now individual shows i record, 100% of the time it tells me instantly that there is a conflict. The conflict resolution on this machine in this instance is superior to my hdtivo.


----------



## catcard

I am scheduled for a DTV install tomorrow - I asked for an HD DVR - not sure if they will bring an HR-20 or HR21 but it sounds like I may be in for some problems or maybe I might be lucky in the DVR lottery and get a good one! I will keep my fingers crossed.... But I will keep my cable with my Series1 standalone for backup for awhile to see how things go. It is disconcerting that if I do have problems I am stuck for 2 yrs unless I want to pay the early termintation fee


----------



## TSpoonEars

Mark Lopez said:


> If your unit is anywhere near as slow as an HR10, it probably has a problem. As for the SL links being done in the background, I've always had it tell me I had a conflict as soon as I create the SL. Now, conficts do occur later if times change etc. (just as they do with the HR10) but IMO it's also a lot easier to spot them in the To Do list.


See here's the thing. My HR10 I would only class as slow when setting up a season pass. For everything else it was perfectly fine. Not lightning fast, but then neither is my HR21. Maybe it's just the remote response that makes it seem slow, but I find the trick-play much more responsive and how I would expect it to behave on my Tivo than on the HR-21. I never really understood the complaints about the HR10 being slow. And we had a LOT of season passes/wishlists set up.


----------



## TSpoonEars

stevel said:


> I don't have any of those problems with my HR21. As for PIP, I can take it or leave it, but it is a feature, not a flaw and many people like it.
> 
> OnDemand is nice and I see a lot of standard TiVo owners complaining that they can't use their cable company's OnDemand feature. It's especially great if you want to catch up on a series you came in on in the middle. MediaShare I have used and I like, though I wish it were faster. Standalone TiVos have something similar.
> 
> If you want to complain about the HR21, then stick to the things it is doing wrong for you, and leave the other features out of it.


I don't want to complain about the HR21. I want it to work at least as well as what I had before. After 18 months of release that shouldn't be too much to ask. If you want to bring up OnDemand and Mediashare though then I can comment about them more:

1) I have never got Mediashare to work for me. I have tried Tversity and Windows Media Player11. My HR21 doesn't give me the mediashare menu option. I understand this is a common problem reported on dbstalk. It doesn't bother me too much as it would a rarely used feature for me, but right now it doesn't work for me. I have uPnP enabled on my router.

2) OnDemand would be more useful if they had current TV shows on there, so I could download the shows it failed to record. It would at least be a rather handy backup . Right now I am using an SD Tivo for some shows when I have a spare tuner available. This service will only get better so I do see it a definite plus.

With regard to the lost/cancelled recordings, if you look on dbstalk, you'll see I am most certainly not unique in that regard. It is a very common problem with the HR20/21 series.

For me, PIP in a DVR is a flaw, not a feature. Granted it's working as designed, but for me it is a design flaw and I would like the option to turn it off. For some people watching live sports/TV and want to fiddle with the menu then it could be beneficial, but that seems far less likely in a DVR than a show being spoiled when you a trying to start watching it.

I'm sorry if I haven't suddenly become an HR21 apologist. This is a Tivo forum though. I HAVE tried both and far prefer the Tivo. Mrs Ears has a real hatred for the HR21, to the point that she's ready to pay the leaving fee. I tolerate it so far, but as soon as it fails to record an F1 race, we're gone. (I know: door, hit you... way out..)


----------



## rminsk

stevel said:


> If you want to complain about the HR21, then stick to the things it is doing wrong for you, and leave the other features out of it.


OK, I'll give it a shot. Missing, blank, and short recordings. Audio drop outs. Lip sync issues. Non-working channels I receive. Limit on the number of season passes. I have run into all of these things. I also think PIG (picture in guide) is a big waste of screen space and wish I could turn it off. The dual tuner support is also pretty much useless.


----------



## TSpoonEars

rminsk said:


> OK, I'll give it a shot. Missing, blank, and short recordings. Audio drop outs. Lip sync issues. Non-working channels I receive. Limit on the number of season passes. I have run into all of these things. I also think PIG (picture in guide) is a big waste of screen space and wish I could turn it off. The dual tuner support is also pretty much useless.


My wife uses the Tivo far more than I do - she's the one who sets up most of the season passes and does the show management. Her laundry list of issues is far,far longer than the major stuff I brought up above - which is where her real hatred of the receiver comes from. It's the detail that makes a good DVR that the HR21 is missing, and where Tivo did such a great job initially.

Don't get me wrong, the Tivo wasn't perfect either and some things I thought would be added (distributed scheduling, better padding options) never were, but it was heaps better than the HR-21. One thing I do like on the HR-21 is that one tuner will be used if two shows are recorded back to back on the same station. Tivo should have done this years ago. Where Tivo messed up in my mind is that they started adding 'fluff' features and didn't concentrate on the core DVR features as much. DirecTV seem to have started down this path too, but from a lower base functionality level.


----------



## Flogduh

OK, if DTV can make the following fixes and provide the missing functionalty, then we have an acceptable replacement for the HD Dtivo:

Bug Fixes

Blank & Partial recordings (I've had a few, not many though)
Audio drop outs (it's actually getting better for me...)

Missing Functionality

Dual Live Buffers - don't EVEN suggest the "workaround" solution as remotely acceptable - it's not
Skip to tick - same as above
Slow Motion - still working on programming my Harmony remote to make this work


----------



## Adam1115

Why torture yourself? You hate it, cancel directv, pay the fee, buy a TiVo HD.


----------



## Flogduh

Adam1115 said:


> Why torture yourself? You hate it, cancel directv, pay the fee, buy a TiVo HD.


Adam - "You talkin' to me?"...or to Ann?

If it's me, I don't "hate" it yet. That point comes when my wife hits the roof when the final episode recording of Survivor or American Idol (or both) are either missed, turn out blank, or end prematurely. That or if the same thing happens for game 7 of the SCF and the Sharks "somehow" find themselves there!!!!


----------



## 94SupraTT

justapixel said:


> I'm sorry TiVo.
> 
> The HR20 has been problematic. I don't believe I've watched one show that hasn't had some sort of noise or audio drop. It has had two failures that caused me to have to reboot, reacquire satellite data, reset up. It's missed recordings, something my trusty TiVo never did in 8 years.
> 
> I've had it a month.


This is quite common. My HR21 has been giving me fits since the last software download. Audio dropouts, lockups, no signal after rainfade, oh my!


----------



## rickmeoff

Adam1115 said:


> Why torture yourself? You hate it, cancel directv, pay the fee, buy a TiVo HD.


thats not a reasonable solution at all, for those of us that have multiple units........including sd units. we'd have to start all over again, and the expense would be unreasonable (especially that increased bullsh*t DTV cancellation fee).

far less 'unreasonable' would be for dtv to simply get the hr2x to record consistantly. for many of us, this seems to be a problem (i realize that others have had flawless experiences with their units).

trust me, after setting up and viewing my moms new tivohd, if i could afford to buy 3 of them along with 3 sd units, id do it in a second because imo its a much better setup than my hr20.


----------



## justapixel

I hate the PIP too. We have had several shows spoiled because of that thing. How hard would it be to create a way to turn it off?

Sadly, I don't think Direct TV cares much about these problems. I wonder how many new DVR users are subscribing without knowing that what they are experiencing isn't normal? 

I have to have a backup DVR to record all my favorite shows because the Direct TV's box isn't reliable enough for me to trust it. That's bad.

Tomorrow I'll get my new one and if it doesn't go well, yes, I will cancel. No, I won't pay their two year commitment fee, no way. I didn't get what they promised me.

If enough people drop their service maybe they'll take notice but I still think there are a small percentage of people out there who even have a clue what a good DVR is like.


----------



## shibby191

I love how people hate the PIP and blame DirecTV. While I do agree that there should be an option to turn it off the main reason it's there is because every single other DirecTV *except* the Tivo models have the PIP. Also most cable boxes also have the PIP *including* the Comcast Tivo. So one would think that 70+ million households must find it a good feature. 

Again, sorry to hear about all your problems.


----------



## Scott D

I too had the opportunity to use the HR20 series DVR. By all means, this is not a comparison to TiVo in any way but there are things they need to fix before adding new things into it. One thing that annoys me the most is that when I ask for the playlist to be in alphabetical order, it's ALL in alphabetical order. Meaning, I have all my shows grouped together and listed alphabetically. When I open one of those folders, they too are alphabetical. If I have 5 or 6 shows, I either have to decipher which show was recorded first or do and extra set of key punches to change the sorting order. That's a pretty good flaw right there.

There are, however some nice things too like playing all the shows in one folder by pushing play on the folder, for instance.

I also find the machine to be slow. Grant you, you can get back to live TV after setting up some kind of recording or resequencing the priority list but you have to go back in there some time later to find out if a recording schedule took or not. I know I have to wait on the TiVo for a period of time but I found out that I prefer that method better than DTV's I may need to hurry a recording setup and have only 5 minutes to do it. I need to know before I hit the door. Lost a few recordings because of this.


----------



## rickmeoff

shibby191 said:


> I love how people hate the PIP and blame DirecTV. While I do agree that there should be an option to turn it off the main reason it's there is because every single other DirecTV *except* the Tivo models have the PIP.


ah, sounds like its tivos fault then.

if dtv is not to blame, who should folks complain to and ask that a way to 'shut it off' be implemented?

if my sears refrigerator doesnt have a vegetable bin, im not going to write a letter of complaint to magnavox.....im going to complain to sears.


----------



## shibby191

rickmeoff said:


> ah, sounds like its tivos fault then.
> 
> if dtv is not to blame, who should folks complain to and ask that a way to 'shut it off' be implemented?
> 
> if my sears refrigerator doesnt have a vegetable bin, im not going to write a letter of complaint to magnavox.....im going to complain to sears.


All I'm saying is that every other receiver that they have had for the past 10 years has the PIP while in the guide or menu's *except* the Tivo based units. For whatever reason the Tivo software back then did not allow for it. Thus when DirecTV has done their own DVR they have the PIP, like all their other receivers.
And now the newest Tivo available on Comcast has the PIP...like all of Comcasts other receivers.

See a trend here?  Certainly not saying that anything is Tivo's fault. It's just that it's pretty obvious that all these big companies feel that the PIP is a feature the general public wants. By all means complain, but the attitude here on the PIP is that because Tivo didn't have it that is the best way when in fact everything *except* the Tivo has the PIP. In other words the Tivo is the exception. And even then the new Tivo boxes for cable have the PIP as well. So if you're going to blame DirecTV you outta blame Tivo too for bringing the PIP to their latest software. 

And if you want it as an option tell DirecTV that. Or post on the threads at DBSTalk about it which DirecTV does keep an eye on. Not a whole lot of movement on those PIP threads in recent months though. Feel free to bump one up, there are always those that hate it.


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> I love how people hate the PIP and blame DirecTV. While I do agree that there should be an option to turn it off the main reason it's there is because every single other DirecTV *except* the Tivo models have the PIP. Also most cable boxes also have the PIP *including* the Comcast Tivo. So one would think that 70+ million households must find it a good feature.
> 
> Again, sorry to hear about all your problems.


This just shows how little research is done by Direct - and others. It appears to me that just as many people hate it as like. It makes absolutely no sense on earth why there isn't an option to turn off a feature like this.

You draw a conclusion on non-related facts. Just because it's there for 70 million (or however many you claim) doesn't mean they like it, or wouldn't like to turn it off - even part of the time. Unless you have a study or survey directly relating to that feature, any conclusions you draw are probably very un-informed.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

I would be disappointed if they got rid of the PIP - you hate I like. 

I wonder what the majority of viewers think - not just Tivo owners.


----------



## ebonovic

RS4 said:


> This just shows how little research is done by Direct - and others. It appears to me that just as many people hate it as like. It makes absolutely no sense on earth why there isn't an option to turn off a feature like this.
> 
> You draw a conclusion on non-related facts. Just because it's there for 70 million (or however many you claim) doesn't mean they like it, or wouldn't like to turn it off - even part of the time. Unless you have a study or survey directly relating to that feature, any conclusions you draw are probably very un-informed.


Apply the statement you are making in the 2nd paragraph, to your first.

What facts are you basing that claim off of? that it is a 50/50 like vs dislike?


----------



## Adam1115

rickmeoff said:


> thats not a reasonable solution at all, for those of us that have multiple units........including sd units. we'd have to start all over again, and the expense would be unreasonable (especially that increased bullsh*t DTV cancellation fee).
> 
> far less 'unreasonable' would be for dtv to simply get the hr2x to record consistantly. for many of us, this seems to be a problem (i realize that others have had flawless experiences with their units).
> 
> trust me, after setting up and viewing my moms new tivohd, if i could afford to buy 3 of them along with 3 sd units, id do it in a second because imo its a much better setup than my hr20.


Except the OP added "NOW I HATE IT" to the thread title, which led me to believe that this isn't a situation where waiting it out or being patient will solve the problem.


----------



## Langree

Adam1115 said:


> Except the OP added "NOW I HATE IT" to the thread title, which led me to believe that this isn't a situation where waiting it out or being patient will solve the problem.


Actually from what i can tell she's been more patient then I would have been at this point.

By now I'd be telling them to come get their box and let me out of my contract.


----------



## RS4

ebonovic said:


> Apply the statement you are making in the 2nd paragraph, to your first.
> 
> What facts are you basing that claim off of? that it is a 50/50 like vs dislike?


Well, I draw my conclusions from your very own forum that has had lengthy discussions, plus the numerous threads that I've seen here. I've also read several articles where I've seen complaints. While I haven't observed anywhere close to 70 millions opinions, I do feel I come to a more sound conclusion than Shibby


----------



## Scott D

Langree said:


> Actually from what i can tell she's been more patient then I would have been at this point.
> 
> By now I'd be telling them to come get their box and let me out of my contract.


And DTV will probably laugh at you. Not meant to be mean. Just an observational comment of how they have treated me and my friends.


----------



## Langree

Scott D said:


> And DTV will probably laugh at you. Not meant to be mean. Just an observational comment of how they have treated me and my friends.


When I was with D* I never had bad treatment when I had issues.


----------



## Scott D

RS4 said:


> Well, I draw my conclusions from your very own forum that has had lengthy discussions, plus the numerous threads that I've seen here. I've also read several articles where I've seen complaints. While I haven't observed anywhere close to 70 millions opinions, I do feel I come to a more sound conclusion than Shibby


You've got to remember where they are coming from. If you like DTV for whatever reason, any negative talk about them, however true it is, will be ignored. Fact is, these people aren't interested in real events that happened to people. To them, it never happened.:up:


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> Well, I draw my conclusions from your very own forum that has had lengthy discussions, plus the numerous threads that I've seen here. I've also read several articles where I've seen complaints. While I haven't observed anywhere close to 70 millions opinions, I do feel I come to a more sound conclusion than Shibby


I come up with 70 million because there are 110 million TV households in the U.S. Cable and sat penetration is around 80%. So actually 70 million may be low. My only point is that 70+ million people have the PIP on their receivers. If there was such hate for the PIP you'd think the dozen or so cable companies and sat companies would have dumped the PIP a decade ago.  Of course maybe there is someone high up at every one of those companies that feels the PIP is the end all be all feature and that everyone must have it and they ignore their customers. Whatever floats your boat.

What it does indicate is that the majority like it. So even if 30% or so hate it, the other 70% find it a good feature and thus cable and sat make it available. Just example for instance of course. You can't please everyone.

Of course there are people that hate it. Personally I could take it or leave it, could care less. I like it at times and I don't like it at other times. Oh well. I of course support the ability to have an option to turn it off.


----------



## shibby191

Scott D said:


> You've got to remember where they are coming from. If you like DTV for whatever reason, any negative talk about them, however true it is, will be ignored. Fact is, these people aren't interested in real events that happened to people. To them, it never happened.:up:


Sigh. No. Just pointing out facts. Doesn't make the PIP a good idea for D* or not. But you want to seem to ingore the fact that the PIP is on all their receivers except the Tivo units (for whatever reason, probably technical at the beginning because Tivo can obviously do it now with Comcast). No, it's the call that DirecTV is this evil bastard company that has forced the PIP down everyone's throats and then ignore the fact that Tivo has a PIP themselves now with Comcast and that's ok that just seems...well...crazy. But hey, whatever makes you feel better.

Again, I could care less about the PIP and wish it was an option. But I also understand that the PIP is on 100+ million plus receivers out there and not on the 4 million or so Tivo's (but now on the new cable Tivos). So you tell me why DirecTV is so evil for bringing the PIP to their modern DVR that everyone else also does. Oh that's right, DirecTV is the bastard company that kicked Tivo to the curb and took their lunch money. We need to attack them for everything.


----------



## Scott D

Langree said:


> When I was with D* I never had bad treatment when I had issues.


Give it time. It just might happen to you soon. Don't get me wrong. It's not like I want it to happen to you but wouldn't like it better if you were prepared rather than it sneaking up on you then.......BAM!! It hits you right in the nose.


----------



## Scott D

shibby191 said:


> Sigh. No. Just pointing out facts. Doesn't make the PIP a good idea for D* or not. But you want to seem to ingore the fact that the PIP is on all their receivers except the Tivo units (for whatever reason, probably technical at the beginning because Tivo can obviously do it now with Comcast). No, it's the call that DirecTV is this evil bastard company that has forced the PIP down everyone's throats and then ignore the fact that Tivo has a PIP themselves now with Comcast and that's ok that just seems...well...crazy. But hey, whatever makes you feel better.
> 
> Again, I could care less about the PIP and wish it was an option. But I also understand that the PIP is on 100+ million plus receivers out there and not on the 4 million or so Tivo's (but now on the new cable Tivos). So you tell me why DirecTV is so evil for bringing the PIP to their modern DVR that everyone else also does. Oh that's right, DirecTV is the bastard company that kicked Tivo to the curb and took their lunch money. We need to attack them for everything.


That's NOT what I was talking about. It has nothing to do with PIP.

Besides, is your call sign RS4? No? Then this message was not addressed to you. It was for RS4.


----------



## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> ...I could care less about the PIP and wish it was an option. But I also understand that the PIP is on 100+ million plus receivers out there and not on the 4 million or so Tivo's (but now on the new cable Tivos). So you tell me why DirecTV is so evil for bringing the PIP to their modern DVR that everyone else also does...


You could care less, yet you wish it were an option? I guess you could care less, because if you didn't wish it were an option, you actually would be caring less.

On the "bandwagon" is never a shrewd place to be. Just because something is prevalent has nothing at all to do with whether its a good idea or not, just like just because something is possible doesn't automatically make it a good idea. Smoking was prevalent in the 50's and 60's. How well did that turn out?

I don't think anyone who does something because it seems like everyone else is doing it does that because they are evil. Stupid, maybe, since that's really not a good reason. And in this case supremely arrogant, maybe, since many think its actually a bad idea. So DTV may be stupid and arrogant regarding PIP, and they may be evil as well, I just don't think that any of their evil tendencies enter in to their thinking in that area.

A simple prefs setting would satisfy everyone.


----------



## shibby191

TyroneShoes said:


> You could care less, yet you wish it were an option? I guess you could care less, because if you didn't wish it were an option, you actually would be caring less.


You're not quite understanding.

I *personally* could care less if there is the PIP in guide or not. Take it or leave it really. But I certainly support an option to turn it off for those that hate it. Isn't that a good thing?


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> I come up with 70 million because there are 110 million TV households in the U.S. Cable and sat penetration is around 80%. So actually 70 million may be low. My only point is that 70+ million people have the PIP on their receivers. If there was such hate for the PIP you'd think the dozen or so cable companies and sat companies would have dumped the PIP a decade ago.  Of course maybe there is someone high up at every one of those companies that feels the PIP is the end all be all feature and that everyone must have it and they ignore their customers. Whatever floats your boat.
> 
> What it does indicate is that the majority like it. So even if 30% or so hate it, the other 70% find it a good feature and thus cable and sat make it available. Just example for instance of course. You can't please everyone.
> 
> Of course there are people that hate it. Personally I could take it or leave it, could care less. I like it at times and I don't like it at other times. Oh well. I of course support the ability to have an option to turn it off.


We're talking apples and oranges here. Once again, you are making a conclusion without any basis. The fact that 70 or 100 or 200 million have PIP available to them from their video service has absolutely nothing to do with PIP being used in a dvr. The only time the dvr user and non-dvr user can be compared is when the dvr user is watching TV live. So the research needs to be with the dvr customer, not the general TV customer.

I remind you that the major purpose of a dvr is for folks to watch TV on their schedule, not the supplier's schedule. Therefore, by the very nature of the dvr, the more common sense conclusion is that most people would not want the feature on their dvr - especially if it can't be turned off.

We see lots of controversy in this forum several years ago when it was discussed and more recently at dbstalk, which only makes sense.

And so logic would tell us that the dvr user would be less likely to want the feature - whether they are Direct customers or anyone else's. The thing that Direct and others have done is that they have not paid attention to their customers. They probably followed your logic and said 'well we have PIP on our receivers, we'll put it in the dvr too'. That just shows you how little research and thought is done when they create these products.

Fortunately my Tivo HD does not have the feature. I would hope if they ever put it in, they'd have enough sense to also put a switch in to turn it off.

So far Tivo has understood the market better then the cable and satellite companies, because they look at things from the dvr users point of view. Maybe that's one reason why their dvr is so highly rated.


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> We're talking apples and oranges here. Once again, you are making a conclusion without any basis. The fact that 70 or 100 or 200 million have PIP available to them from their video service has absolutely nothing to do with PIP being used in a dvr. The only time the dvr user and non-dvr user can be compared is when the dvr user is watching TV live. So the research needs to be with the dvr customer, not the general TV customer.
> 
> I remind you that the major purpose of a dvr is for folks to watch TV on their schedule, not the supplier's schedule. Therefore, by the very nature of the dvr, the more common sense conclusion is that most people would not want the feature on their dvr - especially if it can't be turned off.
> 
> We see lots of controversy in this forum several years ago when it was discussed and more recently at dbstalk, which only makes sense.
> 
> And so logic would tell us that the dvr user would be less likely to want the feature - whether they are Direct customers or anyone else's. The thing that Direct and others have done is that they have not paid attention to their customers. They probably followed your logic and said 'well we have PIP on our receivers, we'll put it in the dvr too'. That just shows you how little research and thought is done when they create these products.
> 
> Fortunately my Tivo HD does not have the feature. I would hope if they ever put it in, they'd have enough sense to also put a switch in to turn it off.
> 
> So far Tivo has understood the market better then the cable and satellite companies, because they look at things from the dvr users point of view. Maybe that's one reason why their dvr is so highly rated.


Ok, so how about 35 million DVR users. 3.9 million (and dropping) are Tivo users. So just under 90% of the DVR market is not a Tivo user and thus has some sort of PIP functionality. This will only grow as the DirecTivo users wind down and the cable Tivo's (which have PIP) grow. We can argue all day about what is better or not, I'm just simply pointing out the facts of the numbers.


----------



## justapixel

The saga continues.

I rushed home after work Thursday, eagerly awaiting my brand-new box and hoping I could finally get a reliable and trouble-free recording. We'd stayed up late trying to watch everything important that we had on the box.

Two trucks show up at 6:15. One tech comes in to check the satellite strength and says he's going to adjust the sat. I say....wtf? I thought I was getting a brand new box! 

Well, that was news to him, it hadn't been in their "notes." He thought he was going to check my satellite. Of course, my signal strength was fine as it has always been. He noticed that this weird line I have across the top of my TV is actually white numbers. (It didn't happen with the other box) and says that is clearly a problem. I explained that everything has been checked from top down with the LNB replaced and the problems continued and they were there to get me a new box, not a refurb.

The guy goes outside and in comes another tech, who was in the second truck and who I assumed might be some kind of supervisor. The guy hears my story and tells me that they have an entire warehouse full of refurbs but no new boxes. He complaints to me that he can't believe that they do business this way - setting up customers with refurbs. He gets on the phone with HIS supervisor, explains my problem and then says his boss will get me a new box, not a refurb. That he will get one from Redding since they have none in Sacramento, and they'll call and bring it to me on Saturday. He sounded as annoyed with Direct TV as the first tech.

Saturday, no call. (I'm dealing with Ironwood Communications at this point.) So, I call them to see what time the service call will happen. They have no record of it, and in fact, the tech's had closed my call! They said they'd gone on the roof to align my dish!

Can you say frustration? I knew that you could.

I explained to her that what I'd been told - that I was getting a new box and somebody was going to Redding to get me one - and that there was some sort of miscommunication going on because this was the second tech who'd told me to do something that had not ended up in the notes and nobody knew about it.

So, she is going to have that crew call me today and find out why I am not getting the new DVR.

I'm not holding my breath. I'm researching AT&T's Uverse which is in my area. I may switch to that.

I'm going to call Direct TV's retention department too and ask for a new box and not a refurb, or I'm cancelling.

Here's a question - if you cancel, is it shut off immediately? In that case, I'm going to want to call AT&T first.


----------



## Langree

justapixel said:


> Here's a question - if you cancel, is it shut off immediately? In that case, I'm going to want to call AT&T first.


I had mine killed immediatly and ended up with a $65 credit on my account. That I never got a check for.


----------



## Turtleboy

Ann,

You may want to revisit the whole "Comcast sucks" notion. I'm very happy with Comcast and my HD Tivo.


----------



## shibby191

Ann, go to cable or AT&T and be happy. Seriously, just make it happen.

FYI that AT&T Uverse has a limit of 1 HD stream per household so you won't be able to record more then one HD show at once. I'd look into cable before that.


----------



## justapixel

So, I called retention. The first person cut me off. 

The second guy tried to tell me "pixelation" wasn't a problem with the box but wiring.....yada yada....I cut *him* off and I explained all the other problems I had, that everything had been replaced and check and that three tech people had all looked at it and told me it was the box and I didn't want to hear anymore about it. The only way they could keep me as a customer was to get me a new HD DVR receiver and not a refurb. He said the only person who could get me a new box was tech support and transferred me over there.

*sigh*

The guy there said he'd said me "another" box and I said I only want it if it's new. He said there aren't any new ones, they don't make them.  I told him I didn't believe that - then they are just sending bad boxes around from person to person. He said there was nothing else he could do so they put me back to retention. Retention threatened me with the $180 fee and I told him they can't charge me for that because I had never gotten what I'd contracted for. He insisted they would and got quite snotty about it and I just said they could send me any bill they wanted, but I wouldn't pay it, they could take me to court and they'd lose.

After a long hold, he told me he would get me a new box. Actually, he said he would put in a "request" for a new box. That it was an entirely different process to get one and I'll hear in two business days.

In those two days, I'll research Uverse because I am likely going to have to switch. I no longer have faith that they have a product that works properly.

Wow, just as I was about to hit the post button, there came a knock on my door. It was a very taciturn tech from Ironwood Communications to install a new box!

!

At least, he says it was a new box. There is nothing on them that says "refurb" like when you buy a refurb in the store. He swears it was brand new, never opened.

But, he has me hooking it up to a phone line and I have to keep it there for four days, he says.

Why? He doesn't know or isn't saying.

My phone's in the kitchen and now I have a wire running through the house on the floor.

I no longer see the numbers across the top though, that's good.


----------



## rminsk

justapixel said:


> But, he has me hooking it up to a phone line and I have to keep it there for four days, he says.
> 
> Why? He doesn't know or isn't saying.


From a story a Tech Dirt


> The latest news story represents even more fun for the company. Apparently, a group of DirecTV technicians in Florida (who work for an outside contractor) have blown the whistle on the fact that the company set up incentives that forced them to lie to customers, in order to get people to hook their telephone lines up to the DirecTV boxes. Technicians were told to tell users that it was required, or the device wouldn't work -- even though that's false. In order to enforce this, the company would fine installers any time a box was set up without a phone line connected. Unfortunately, the article isn't entirely clear whether it's the contracting firm or DirecTV who was directly responsible for the fines or the directives to lie to customers. DirecTV was contacted by the reporter doing the story, and they made it clear they plan to continue the practice of pushing installers to hook up phone lines, because users who do so are more likely to order fee-based content and can be more easily tracked by DirecTV. It's easy to see why DirecTV would want this -- and they could obviously turn around and say it wasn't about "fining" the installers, but simply paying them extra if they hooked up a phone line -- but, the fact that installers were encouraged to lie to customers and "do whatever it takes" to get phone lines hooked up is a problem. Especially from a consumer standpoint, it doesn't make DirecTV look very trustworthy -- even if the ultimate fault is with the contractor.


----------



## justapixel

Okay, I'll unplug the stupid cord.

But, does anybody know what they can track with it that they can't with the satellite? What fee-based content will I more easily be able to order?

Is there a link to this story?


----------



## rminsk

justapixel said:


> But, does anybody know what they can track with it that they can't with the satellite?


The receiver does not report anything back over the satellite. It uses the phone line and now the internet connection to do that.


> What fee-based content will I more easily be able to order?


PPV


> Is there a link to this story?


Had to dig it up again. Found it at http://www.techdirt.com/article.php?sid=20060502/2248208&cid=479


----------



## terpfan1980

The tech insisted that the phone get hooked up because they've been told by their bosses that the installation company won't get paid if they don't get the box to check in via phone. Not hooking up the phone won't make a bit of difference in how the box works.


There's been a long cycle of testing of the 'current' cutting edge version of the software, but an awful lot of problems that had been caught have been identified and fixed. Hopefully DirecTV will get that software out as a national release very soon. One of the big issues that had been identified was one that related to the boxes losing a tuner because of rain fade or other blocking of the dish and requiring a restart to get it back. That may not be a source of some of JAP's problems here, but it could be a factor.

Again, hopefully the next national release won't be far off and will bring much more stability to everyone's boxes.


----------



## justapixel

Interesting.

The original story is two years old, but the comments continue to now. Some companies are still doing this. I have had my last two receivers installed without needing it to be hooked to a phone line and the tech never mentioned it. I knew about the old D*TiVo wanting to be hooked up, and I have my nag screen going on two years now.

I asked the guy today why it needed to be hooked up, and why four days and he said he didn't know. I asked "Is it because it's a new box and it needs some software" and he said yes. So, I asked why I wouldn't get it through the satellite? He said he didn't know.

So, I left it hooked up until I read here and then unplugged it.

The comments after the article state that the techs who have people hook it up to phone lines get bonuses.

Sorry Mr Tech, but no bonus from me. A wire running across my living room and kitchen is dangerous considering my husband is clumsy and would likely trip on it.


----------



## terpfan1980

justapixel said:


> Interesting.
> 
> The original story is two years old, but the comments continue to now. Some companies are still doing this. I have had my last two receivers installed without needing it to be hooked to a phone line and the tech never mentioned it. I knew about the old D*TiVo wanting to be hooked up, and I have my nag screen going on two years now.
> 
> I asked the guy today why it needed to be hooked up, and why four days and he said he didn't know. I asked "Is it because it's a new box and it needs some software" and he said yes. So, I asked why I wouldn't get it through the satellite? He said he didn't know.
> 
> So, I left it hooked up until I read here and then unplugged it.
> 
> The comments after the article state that the techs who have people hook it up to phone lines get bonuses.
> 
> Sorry Mr Tech, but no bonus from me. A wire running across my living room and kitchen is dangerous considering my husband is clumsy and would likely trip on it.


You might already know this, but just to confirm, the HR20 and HR21 boxes get all of their software downloads from satellite. The phone is only needed for ordering pay-per-view, and even that isn't required if you hook either of those boxes up to an internet connection on your home network.

New software comes down from satellite only. You can force a download of the current national release (which the technician should have done) fairly easily, and if you opt to force the download during specific windows of time on weekends (late in the evenings in a 3 hour block of time) you could get the latest 'cutting edge' version of the software downloaded if you wanted to. Telephone connections not required for any of that either.

The one feature you lose -- besides being able to order pay-per-view -- by not having a phone line hooked up is that you won't be able to see caller id information displayed on your screen. The HR20 and HR21 boxes will display caller information if you subscribe to the caller id service on your telephone system (and have the box hooked up to the phone line). If you do that you get a pop-up on your screen noting who is calling. That information is recorded by the boxes so that you can look up missed call information and such, but it doesn't interfere at all with TV program recordings made by the boxes.

Anyway, leave the box disconnected and no harm will come from it except perhaps that the technician's employers won't get credit for delivering the system (which they really should get through other means anyway...)


----------



## justapixel

I order my PPV using their website. I order so few it barely matters anyway. I did know software comes from the sat which is why I was mystified as to why it needed to be hooked up to the phone.

I didn't know they didn't get credit for delivery unless it was hooked up. This is the first out of three installers who even asked me to do it. 

I don't need caller ID over my TV. I don't answer my phone anyway, I don't need to know when 1-800-services calls me. Anybody I want to talk to calls me on my cell. 

Thanks Bedowell. Keep your fingers crossed that this is the solution I've been looking for. It is REALLY nice not to have to see those flashing, scrolling numbers across the top of my TV at least.


----------



## terpfan1980

I hope you get a good working box out of the current one, but do think if you can make it through the next month (give or take), you'll see the next national release of the software and it'll go quite a good bit towards fixing some of the problems you've been having.

If you were adventuresome, you could force a download of the latest cutting edge software this evening. That software is not officially released to the general public and would be considered 'beta' software or something similar to that. The current HR20 software has been through about 10 different updates now (in the cutting edge cycle) so the software that is out there right now has been through the ringer pretty good and has had most of the problems found and stomped out. If DirecTV holds to past practices, if this current version doesn't have many bugs it'll likely be made a national release over the next couple of weeks (month or so at the most if all goes well) and then the cycle will repeat again.

The last national release and some of the cutting edge versions in between had problems with losing the signal from rain fade and other blocking of the dish. Apparently it was an issue that DirecTV wasn't aware of it and that wasn't found by the testers until the rainy season started up in most areas.

There's been a few other problems (up until the most recent cutting edge version) with recordings being missed for wrong reasons. That should only have been happening with the users of the cutting edge software and should be gone now, but that's part of what is being tested in the version of the software that was released to testers this week.

Hopefully things will keep going well for the testers and over the next few weeks the software will get much more bullet proof and work better for you and everyone that has these boxes


----------



## justapixel

bdowell said:


> If you were adventuresome, you could force a download of the latest cutting edge software this evening. That software is not officially released to the general public and would be considered 'beta' software or something similar to that. The current HR20 software has been through about 10 different updates now (in the cutting edge cycle) so the software that is out there right now has been through the ringer pretty good and has had most of the problems found and stomped out.


Normally, I would download the newest software in a heartbeat. But, since I haven't had a good experience with what you say has already been through the ringer, I'm hesitant to try it with something that hasn't. I don't know if my continued problems have been hardware or software related - I suspect hardware but I just can't know. So, I think I'd like to see how this one performs before I do any beta testing.

They did update software when they put in the box. With what version I didn't look. What I saw today on live TV was fine, already better than the last one. We'll watch a recorded show tonight and see what happens.

But, if you tell me it will get rid of that picture in picture I'll do it right now.


----------



## newsposter

i dont understand why a tech would even think a phone line needed to be hooked up. The techs all call to activate the unit while they are there at the install so DUH...it's 'installed' officially and legally.


----------



## stevel

The DirecTV Terms of Service require a phone line be connected. As others point out, this is not in fact "required" by the box or service, and recent software versions of the HR2x can use a broadband network connection for what the phone line was used for (other than Caller ID.)

My guess is that the requirement as expressed by the installer is to help prevent some kind of fraud, at least showing that the new box was installed at the claimed residence (if anyone cared to check.)


----------



## RS4

newsposter said:


> i dont understand why a tech would even think a phone line needed to be hooked up. The techs all call to activate the unit while they are there at the install so DUH...it's 'installed' officially and legally.


I believe it could be a different motive. I just saw an article about Direct selling viewer habits to a company, so I would guess they need the boxes hooked up so they can retrieve the items viewed. The service they are selling the stuff to reports viewing habits the next day.


----------



## shibby191

The bottom line is that DirecTV requires a phone line to be hooked up. Period. And installers are just following that policy. This isn't anything new, been that way for 15 years. Heck, to make an installer happy all you need to do is hook a phone cord into it, doesn't even need to be plugged into anything on the other end, and send them on your way.

We technically know that the phone line isn't required except for PPV but that's only because DirecTV doesn't bother to enforce it at this time. For Tech Dirt to claim installers are lying is just plain dumb as it *is* a requirement of the terms of service.

Anyway, you don't need it for non-Tivo receivers. And if you hook up an HR20/21 to the Internet it will do all the things over the Internet that it would over the phone line including reporting of PPV. If you don't care about PPV then don't worry about it. It's not going to nag you every day after 30 days like a DirecTivo as it doesn't need to dial into Tivo.


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> I believe it could be a different motive. I just saw an article about Direct selling viewer habits to a company, so I would guess they need the boxes hooked up so they can retrieve the items viewed. The service they are selling the stuff to reports viewing habits the next day.


Same thing as the data collection that Tivo does. You can opt out of it as well just like Tivo.


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> Same thing as the data collection that Tivo does. You can opt out of it as well just like Tivo.


Always defending the mother ship, eh Shibby? Try to drag Tivo in to the discussion and zing it, even though nothing was mentioned about it.:down: You guys in the army are relentless - I'll bet D* is very proud of you


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> Always defending the mother ship, eh Shibby? Try to drag Tivo in to the discussion and zing it, even though nothing was mentioned about it.:down: You guys in the army are relentless - I'll bet D* is very proud of you


Not at all. Was simply giving an FYI for those that didn't know it and that you can opt out of the data collection. You can simply log into your DirecTV account online and uncheck a box and you're done. Of course if you don't have the phone line or Internet connected then I guess you don't even need to do that. 

I only mentioned Tivo because you gave the impression like there was some dark motive or something. Thus the small mention that Tivo also collects your data (FYI to those that didn't know that) and you can opt out of it as well.

No defending at all. I personally don't care so long as there is a way to opt out if I so choose and both Tivo and DirecTV give that option.

Wow, you just don't give up.


----------



## justapixel

Well, I want them to know what I'm watching because I have excellent taste. And, if it'll keep one of my favorite shows on the air, it's worth it. 

But, no internet or phone hooked up so alas, I guess my data doesn't count. 

I watched the one and only show we recorded last night. There was one brief moment of pixelation. Not a great sign considering it was the first recorded show I'd watched but if that's as bad as it gets I'd be happy. We'll see.


----------



## shibby191

justapixel said:


> I watched the one and only show we recorded last night. There was one brief moment of pixelation. Not a great sign considering it was the first recorded show I'd watched but if that's as bad as it gets I'd be happy. We'll see.


I will just say that if you are looking for perfection like a DVD, as in never getting pixelation, I have never seen it in the 12 years I've been with DirecTV. Just the nature of the beast.


----------



## 20TIL6

shibby191 said:


> I will just say that if you are looking for perfection like a DVD, as in never getting pixelation, I have never seen it in the 12 years I've been with DirecTV. Just the nature of the beast.


Really? When I had DirecTV (from mid 90's to about a year ago), the only time I had any pixelation whatsoever was during very heavy rainstorms. It was an incredibly stable signal. But I only had their SD service with TiVo, Sony SAT-T60 units, a Samsung SIR4080, I think. Plus a handful of their plain receivers. It was rock solid.


----------



## stevel

I haven't seen any "pixelation" issues with my HR21 and HR20. I do see it sometimes with the HR10.


----------



## 20TIL6

stevel said:


> I haven't seen any "pixelation" issues with my HR21 and HR20. I do see it sometimes with the HR10.


nice save steve


----------



## rickmeoff

ive noticed on my hr20 that in most scenes peoples heads are noticeably smaller......like the size of a tennis ball. but ive gotten used to it.

ive never seen this happen on my hr10.


----------



## shibby191

20TIL6 said:


> Really? When I had DirecTV (from mid 90's to about a year ago), the only time I had any pixelation whatsoever was during very heavy rainstorms. It was an incredibly stable signal. But I only had their SD service with TiVo, Sony SAT-T60 units, a Samsung SIR4080, I think. Plus a handful of their plain receivers. It was rock solid.


I, personally, with a properly peaked dish and proper coax and connectors rarely see pixelization. I had pixelization issues back 5-6 years ago. Turned out to be a bad cable. Had to dig up my 4 buried cables and replace one of them. That was fun. This was before I had HD by the way.

HD pixelization. Well, I've seen that since day one when all I had was OTA and just a digital tuner. Locals are all across the board and quality in terms of PQ and pixelization is very specific. My CBS station for example has video and audio drops/pixelization at least 2-3 times an hour, sometimes worse. And this is OTA and not even on a DirecTV receiver so the HR20 can't be blamed in this case. Just a nature of their crappy signal. Now I actually get better results via DirecTV on this station because their antenna tower is closer to the broadcast signal and is thus more stable. But there are still at least one pixelization every hour. It's just that station.
My NBC is pretty bad with pixelization. Why? Cause NBC HD just plain sucks when you run 2 subchannels, and that's OTA no less. DirecTV can't give a better signal then they get so I fear when it goes up on DirecTV someday (LIN owned station).

As for nationals, the MPEG2 HD on DirecTV can certainly pixelize at times. The old "HD lite". I've rarely seen any pixelization on the MPEG4 HD channels but I do see it from time to time. Once an hour certainly wouldn't bother me at all because I know it's the nature of the technology.

Now if it was several times an hour then that I wouldn't accept because I know it can be better unless it's an OTA local station that has issues. Thus my statement, perhaps too sweeping, that to expect DVD perfection is asking too much. And I do know some people are that way. They will complain about every little imperfection while not understanding what is "normal" for this still new technology. And I am not accusing Ann of being in that category but just wanted to point out that perfection just isn't to be had from any provider, Dish, DirecTV or cable. BUT, if you can find something better then what you have now then by all means go for it. Life is too short to suffer on something as trivial as TV.


----------



## newsposter

i'm not looking thru 14 pages of posts but if you dont have it, be thankful you dont have the tuner 2 issue with the 110 on hr20. I cant even record sho/hbo on the hr20 because i worry about a 771.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

newsposter said:


> i'm not looking thru 14 pages of posts but if you dont have it, be thankful you dont have the tuner 2 issue with the 110 on hr20. I cant even record sho/hbo on the hr20 because i worry about a 771.


english please


----------



## terpfan1980

newsposter said:


> i'm not looking thru 14 pages of posts but if you dont have it, be thankful you dont have the tuner 2 issue with the 110 on hr20. I cant even record sho/hbo on the hr20 because i worry about a 771.


Thankfully that issue seems to have (finally) been fixed with the 'latest' cutting edge release. That being the case, it should hopefully be fixed with the next national release of the software.


----------



## newsposter

Jebberwocky! said:


> english please


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=120373

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=116431



bdowell said:


> Thankfully that issue seems to have (finally) been fixed with the 'latest' cutting edge release. That being the case, it should hopefully be fixed with the next national release of the software.


hope so, wife forgot about this and turned to sho and it said 771, i said no you have to use TIVO to get in the station


----------



## rminsk

shibby191 said:


> I only mentioned Tivo because you gave the impression like there was some dark motive or something. Thus the small mention that Tivo also collects your data (FYI to those that didn't know that) and you can opt out of it as well.


The data TiVo was collecting was only traceable back to your zipcode. The data DirecTV receivers are collecting was traceable back to the individual receiver and account. At least it was that way before they started encrypting the data...


----------



## Scott Corbett

stevel said:


> I haven't seen any "pixelation" issues with my HR21 and HR20. I do see it sometimes with the HR10.


I see some motion artifacts with both, but the HR10 is worse.


----------



## Bananfish

Saturday night: The DirecTV installer finished installing my "free upgrade" HR21 (at 11:30 PM - the installation is a whole 'nother story).

Sunday night: I put in my season passes in (or whatever they're called in the HR21)

Monday afternoon: The HR21 froze up by 3 PM or so.

When I tried to watch Daily Show/Colbert around 9 on Monday, I couldn't get the unit to respond to the remote or button presses on the unit itself. I called DirecTV and did a reboot, which got the unit working, but confirmed that those recordings didn't occur. Not a big deal, since I got the next showing at 10, but ....

this is not an auspicious start to my relationship with the HR21, DirecTV.

On the other hand, as to the HR10-250 that they swapped out for the HR21 in my family room - I was able to get them to put it in the bedroom. So I still do have some TiVo - just not able to take advantage of the HD on it ... yet. (And who knows, maybe I can get them to swap it out again someday - maybe even for a TiVo!)


----------



## rminsk

Bananfish... you may want to try upgrading to the latest national release (if the installer did not) of the software. Restart the HR21 and when you see the very first screen enter 0-2-4-6-8 on the remote. That will force a download of the latest software on the satellite. It will most likely not fix the problems but it is worth a try. Eventually the unit would do it on it's own.


----------



## justapixel

Bananfish said:


> Monday afternoon: The HR21 froze up by 3 PM or so.
> [/SIZE]


The exact same thing happened to me yesterday, with my brand new one. The two shows I've watched on it have been fine, but I was really disappointed to see the freeze, and I lost a show because the reboot takes so long. 

What a horrible product.  I'm puzzled as to why they even released it. I'm not puzzled as to why they have warehouses full of refurbs though.


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> ...and I lost a show because the reboot takes so long.


Just curious, where does it seem to 'hang'. I ask because all three of my HR20s boot considerably faster than my HR10s ever did. If it's hanging at the checking sat phase, you might have a problem with your dish/cabling (despite what the installer has said). It would also explain some of the other issues you are having.


----------



## rminsk

Mark Lopez said:


> Just curious, where does it seem to 'hang'. I ask because all three of my HR20s boot considerably faster than my HR10s ever did. If it's hanging at the checking sat phase, you might have a problem with your dish/cabling (despite what the installer has said). It would also explain some of the other issues you are having.


My HR20s have always booted much slower than my HR10-250. The HR10-250 will get to the acquiring satellite information about twice as fast as my HR20's and usually get the satellite information faster also.


----------



## justapixel

Mark Lopez said:


> Just curious, where does it seem to 'hang'. I ask because all three of my HR20s boot considerably faster than my HR10s ever did. If it's hanging at the checking sat phase, you might have a problem with your dish/cabling (despite what the installer has said). It would also explain some of the other issues you are having.


Are you talking about where it hangs when booting? Last night it was at 97% acquiring satellite or whatever. It takes about 20 minutes. But, that doesn't explain why I have to reboot a brand-new machine in the first place.

 I checked it tonight early to make sure it'll work because Idol is on.

I used to go out and come home and there were my shows. I miss those days.


----------



## DZB

On my old SD DirecTv Tivo I was able to press the power button on my peanut remote and it would only turn my tv on and off not the Tivo. How do I do this with the remote for my HR21?


----------



## Scott D

justapixel said:


> Are you talking about where it hangs when booting? Last night it was at 97% acquiring satellite or whatever. It takes about 20 minutes. But, that doesn't explain why I have to reboot a brand-new machine in the first place.
> 
> I checked it tonight early to make sure it'll work because Idol is on.
> 
> I used to go out and come home and there were my shows. I miss those days.


Maybe it's time to move on as you have mentioned earlier. This is not worth the hassle to anybody.


----------



## Bananfish

justapixel said:


> Are you talking about where it hangs when booting? Last night it was at 97% acquiring satellite or whatever. It takes about 20 minutes. But, that doesn't explain why I have to reboot a brand-new machine in the first place.
> 
> I checked it tonight early to make sure it'll work because Idol is on.
> 
> I used to go out and come home and there were my shows. I miss those days.


Mine reboots fairly slow as well - it seems like 20 minutes but might just seem that way ... but it's at least 10. It is slow during the stage in which it counts up from 0% to 100% - I guess that's satellite acquisition. It slowly progresses through and stops at a few percentages on the way .... 97% was indeed the one it stopped at the longest.

No problems since I rebooted yesterday, so hopefully it's a one-time thing .. maybe it happens when it goes and gets a new software version? I'm pretty certain there's no dish/cabling issues.


----------



## jimb726

Bananfish said:


> Mine reboots fairly slow as well - it seems like 20 minutes but might just seem that way ... but it's at least 10. It is slow during the stage in which it counts up from 0% to 100% - I guess that's satellite acquisition. It slowly progresses through and stops at a few percentages on the way .... 97% was indeed the one it stopped at the longest.
> 
> No problems since I rebooted yesterday, so hopefully it's a one-time thing .. maybe it happens when it goes and gets a new software version? I'm pretty certain there's no dish/cabling issues.


I have timed my reboots and they consistantly fall in the 5 to 6 minute range. I do the CE program every weekend on two different units, one a HR20-700 and a 100 and I am in that range probably 80-90% of the time. I have no idea what would cause a longer or freeze up, I provide this for informational purposes only.


----------



## Scooter

You can't be having that many broken boxes in the same house. Something is wrong with the wiring or the satellite. I am convinced.

Sorry, justapixel.

Scooter


----------



## shibby191

jimb726 said:


> I have timed my reboots and they consistantly fall in the 5 to 6 minute range. I do the CE program every weekend on two different units, one a HR20-700 and a 100 and I am in that range probably 80-90% of the time. I have no idea what would cause a longer or freeze up, I provide this for informational purposes only.


Same here. A reboot takes 5-7 minutes usually for me. But then again I normally don't need to reboot unless I'm loading up a new CE and those of course take a bit longer (10-15) since it needs to download new software and install it. But the couple times I've needed to reboot it's very fast.

My old R10 DirecTivo takes at least 20 minutes to reboot it as did all my older ones (T-60, HDVR2) so that's my only personal point of reference. But then again they are on slower hardware.

If a normal reboot of an HR20 or HR21 is taking 10 minutes or more there is usually something wrong somewhere with the acquiring of a signal which is typically a bad of flaky LNB, cables, connectors or multiswitch.


----------



## rickmeoff

Scooter said:


> You can't be having that many broken boxes in the same house. Something is wrong with the wiring or the satellite. I am convinced.
> 
> Sorry, justapixel.
> 
> Scooter


what, shes gone through 2-3 boxes with problems? and getting lock-ups....missed recordings and slow boot-ups. we went through 3 before getting one that worked properly, and our wiring/satellite was fine.

sometimes you just get lemons......it happens. many of us have had to go through numerous hr2x's before getting one that worked consistantly, while others have had no problems right from the first box.

its just the luck of the draw.



shibby191 said:


> Same here. A reboot takes 5-7 minutes usually for me. But then again I normally don't need to reboot unless I'm loading up a new CE and those of course take a bit longer (10-15) since it needs to download new software and install it. But the couple times I've needed to reboot it's very fast.
> 
> My old R10 DirecTivo takes at least 20 minutes to reboot it as did all my older ones. But then again they are on slower hardware.


ive timed both.

are you sure your hr10 didnt take more like 45 minutes to reboot?  my hr20 takes 12 minutes to reboot.

oh course, being an hr2x fanboy, *your* hr10 would take much longer than the hr2x, lol. i call bs.

an hr10 has NEVER taken 20 minutes to reboot, unless theres something wrong with it......7 minutes, timed.

i just replaced a hdd in an hr10 that was dying and rebooting. while it was recording something, it would miss exactly 7 minutes of it from the time it rebooted, to the time it began recording again.


----------



## shibby191

Scooter said:


> You can't be having that many broken boxes in the same house. Something is wrong with the wiring or the satellite. I am convinced.
> 
> Sorry, justapixel.
> 
> Scooter


I would typically agree. If I were nearby I'd stop over and help by first not using any of the current cables and run some cables directly from dish to receiver to troubleshoot.

I had a lot of problems in December similar to Justapixel actually (signal errors, blank recordings, lockups and reboots) and after doing a lot of swapping cables and running things direct, bypassing switches and about a week of troubleshooting I narrowed it down to a bad LNB and I could reproduce the problems on command once I figured it out. I promptly bought and installed a new Slimline and haven't had a problem since. Notice how much time I spent troubleshooting this down. No installer/tech is ever going to spend that much time. Sometimes you just have to do it on your own, nature of the satellite beast.

Not saying this is the case here with Justapixel, just giving my personal experience.


----------



## Scooter

shibby191 said:


> I would typically agree. If I were nearby I'd stop over and help by first not using any of the current cables and run some cables directly from dish to receiver to troubleshoot.
> 
> I had a lot of problems in December similar to Justapixel actually (signal errors, blank recordings, lockups and reboots) and after doing a lot of swapping cables and running things direct, bypassing switches and about a week of troubleshooting I narrowed it down to a bad LNB and I could reproduce the problems on command once I figured it out. I promptly bought and installed a new Slimline and haven't had a problem since. Notice how much time I spent troubleshooting this down. No installer/tech is ever going to spend that much time. Sometimes you just have to do it on your own, nature of the satellite beast.
> 
> Not saying this is the case here with Justapixel, just giving my personal experience.


I have a good feeling that someone needs to really get down and dirty with her install as well.

I'm also wondering whether or not her wiring is capable of properly handling MPEG4 transmission. They can say the wiring is fine, but is it really? I mean, I probably wouldn't want to rewire a house either if I could get out of it. 

But alas, at this point, I think she's probably well beyond the point of return.
I'd be pretty darn frustrated if I were her too.

Btw, I'm not denying the fact that she didn't have one bad box. Seems to me they are acting up like mine did when I had a signal issue. 
My problem was a bad BBC.

Scooter


----------



## llarch

Scooter said:


> You can't be having that many broken boxes in the same house. Something is wrong with the wiring or the satellite. I am convinced.
> 
> Sorry, justapixel.
> 
> Scooter


I disagree, I'm having the same experience as justapixel.

I swapped two HR10s for two HR21-700, they are garbage (in my experience). Nothing but problems with the HR21s, on a daily basis (both of them). And I'm not even referring to problems with advanced features like VOD and Media Share, I'm talking about problems with basic DVR functionality;

Let me list a few:

1. Missed recordings.
2. Recoding blank shows.
3. Issues with pause, go back (not responding to remote, long delays).
4. Audio drop outs.
5. Dropped video to display when changing channels (mostly on HD channels).

And it's not just me making this assessment, my wife and kids are ready to throw the HR21s out the window, I have to hear, on a daily basis, "why did we have to switch from TiVo?"....


----------



## Scott D

llarch said:


> And it's not just me making this assessment, my wife and kids are ready to throw the HR21s out the window, I have to hear, on a daily basis, "why did we have to switch from TiVo?"....


And that's one of the reasons I canned DTV. Customer service and sub par receivers drove me away.


----------



## Scooter

llarch said:


> I disagree, I'm having the same experience as justapixel.
> 
> I swapped two HR10s for two HR21-700, they are garbage (in my experience). Nothing but problems with the HR21s, on a daily basis (both of them). And I'm not even referring to problems with advanced features like VOD and Media Share, I'm talking about problems with basic DVR functionality;
> 
> Let me list a few:
> 
> 1. Missed recordings.
> 2. Recoding blank shows.
> 3. Issues with pause, go back (not responding to remote, long delays).
> 4. Audio drop outs.
> 5. Dropped video to display when changing channels (mostly on HD channels).
> 
> And it's not just me making this assessment, my wife and kids are ready to throw the HR21s out the window, I have to hear, on a daily basis, "why did we have to switch from TiVo?"....


You aren't comparing apples to apples here. Can the HR10 record MPEG4? NO. This is where your problems may have started when you made the switch.

Your setup wasn't capable of handling it. (perhaps)

Again, I'm not saying that no-one has a bad box once and a while, but I'm convinced that many of the problems are indeed related to wiring setups also.
I've seen what it can do to a box when it's messed up.

Scooter


----------



## shibby191

Scooter said:


> Your setup wasn't capable of handling it. (perhaps)
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that no-one has a bad box once and a while, but I'm convinced that many of the problems are indeed related to wiring setups also.


It is very true the that the KA signals (which the MPEG4 channels are coming in on) are known to need higher quality coax (such as true copper core, not just copper clad) and need connectors capable of higher frequencies.

I was personally worried about this myself as my cables that are buried are 10 years old but I haven't had a problem since I paid extra for top of the line (at the time) RG6. They were custom made at the home theater shop with top of the line connectors as well.

If all you have is just generic RG6 you got at Best Buy or Radio Shack, well, it's crap sorry to say. Good enough so far but with KA it may not be.

This problem has been seen many times on DBSTalk with people that have older cables or just cheapo connectors that just aren't capable of the higher frequency signals. Replacing the cable and/or connectors solved the problem in many of those cases. Check the installation forum. The problem is that many installers don't seem to realize this and even if they do they just want to blame the receivers as it's much easier to spend 5 minutes swapping a receiver and leave then it is to spend a couple hours to replace the cables.


----------



## rminsk

Scooter said:


> You can't be having that many broken boxes in the same house. Something is wrong with the wiring or the satellite. I am convinced.


I have access to 5 different HR20 at 3 different locations. All of them wired with belden cable and high quality compression terminations. All of them have problems. At my place I have an HR10-250 and a HR20-700. The HR10-250 is still rock solid and the HR20-700 misses recordings or has short recordings at least once a week. I do not think it is her wiring.


----------



## Scooter

rminsk said:


> I have access to 5 different HR20 at 3 different locations. All of them wired with belden cable and high quality compression terminations. All of them have problems. At my place I have an HR10-250 and a HR20-700. The HR10-250 is still rock solid and the HR20-700 misses recordings or has short recordings at least once a week. I do not think it is her wiring.


That doesn't prove anything. Just because you think you have good wiring, it doesn't mean it's good. There might be a problem somewhere. It also could be the dish. Once again, we are talking about completely different equipment/transmissions here - MPEG4. Perhaps DirecTV screwed the pooch somewhere and they have crappy LNBs, or the Dish doesn't pull the feeds in well enough (I'm talking overall design here) and it's not providing a good enough signal, who knows, but something isn't right. I'm confident, that everything needs to be in perfect working order for them to work well.

Once again, I'm not saying you can't have a bad box. But so many at one house? bah!

Sh*tty install.


----------



## rminsk

Scooter said:


> That doesn't prove anything. Just because you think you have good wiring, it doesn't mean it's good. There might be a problem somewhere. It also could be the dish. Once again, we are talking about completely different equipment/transmissions here - MPEG4. Perhaps DirecTV screwed the pooch somewhere and they have crappy LNBs, or the Dish doesn't pull the feeds in well enough (I'm talking overall design here) and it's not providing a good enough signal, who knows, but something isn't right. I'm confident, that everything needs to be in perfect working order for them to work well.
> 
> Once again, I'm not saying you can't have a bad box. But so many at one house? bah!
> 
> Sh*tty install.


You did notice I said at 3 different locations. That means three different dishes. And it is not an mpeg4 problem. I have just as many problems with OTA (which has it's own line) and mpeg2 HD as mpeg4 stations...


----------



## Scooter

rminsk said:


> You did notice I said at 3 different locations. That means three different dishes. And it is not an mpeg4 problem. I have just as many problems with OTA (which has it's own line) and mpeg2 HD as mpeg4 stations...


I guess you are just unlucky. Huh.


----------



## llarch

Scooter said:


> That doesn't prove anything. Just because you think you have good wiring, it doesn't mean it's good. There might be a problem somewhere. It also could be the dish. Once again, we are talking about completely different equipment/transmissions here - MPEG4. Perhaps DirecTV screwed the pooch somewhere and they have crappy LNBs, or the Dish doesn't pull the feeds in well enough (I'm talking overall design here) and it's not providing a good enough signal, who knows, but something isn't right. I'm confident, that everything needs to be in perfect working order for them to work well.
> 
> Once again, I'm not saying you can't have a bad box. But so many at one house? bah!
> 
> Sh*tty install.


A wiring problem? Please, come on. Guess you've never heard of occam's razor. It's not a wiring problem, the issues with the HR21s come and go with various firmware updates. For example, I lost functionality of the 30 skip button with a particular firmware update a month ago, then I got the functionality back with the latest national release. It is pretty clear the boxes have issues.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Ok, I just intentionally rebooted one of my HR20s running the NR (using the menu) and it took exactly 5:14 from the time I pressed 'dash' to the time the picture came back up.

So, for those who it's taking 20 minutes or whatever, I still think you have some issue with your dish, muliti-switch or wiring.That would also explain your other problems. But if you want to blame the box when logic points elsewhere, so be it. <shrug>



llarch said:


> A wiring problem? Guess you've never heard of occam's razor.


Yes I have, but aparently you don't understand it.



> Occam's Razor is a line of reasoning that says the simplest answer is often correct.


So if multiple boxes are doing the same thing in the same house, and it's not the normal behavior for the box, then the simplest answer is that it is not the box.


----------



## Adam1115

Mark Lopez said:


> So if multiple boxes are doing the same thing in the same house, and it's not the normal behavior for the box, then the simplest answer is that it is not the box.


Unless it's an HR20.... then all bets are off...


----------



## llarch

Mark Lopez said:


> Ok, I just intentionally rebooted one of my HR20s running the NR (using the menu) and it took exactly 5:14 from the time I pressed 'dash' to the time the picture came back up.
> 
> So, for those who it's taking 20 minutes or whatever, I still think you have some issue with your dish, muliti-switch or wiring.That would also explain your other problems. But if you want to blame the box when logic points elsewhere, so be it. <shrug>
> 
> Yes I have, but aparently you don't understand it.
> 
> So if multiple boxes are doing the same thing in the same house, and it's not the normal behavior for the box, then the simplest answer is that it is not the box.


1. The post wasn't directed to you, 2. I didn't report issues with reboot time, 3. I do understand the concept; no issues before the boxes were swapped, no other changes, boxes swapped, issues now. Occam's razor would suggested it is issues with the box, to suggest otherwise is going a long way to avoid the obvious.

As far as multiple boxes having the same issues, that's what one would expect since they have the same specs, config, software, etc.

Could it be that these boxes just have issues? Yes, that is again, very obvious, just read the all the posts on the other forum.


----------



## adbjester

justapixel said:


> I'm locked into a two-year contract now - all I can do is hope they fix the damn thing and are working on all the failures and problems.


I just dumped DTV after being an early adopter there (I'd been with them since 1996!). I was in the middle of a 2-year contract, for having migrated to the HR20 for HD... and didn't care. It was that bad. I paid the $150 early termination fee, bought two TiVo HD's, wireless adapters, and moved to Comcast cable.

Smartest media decision I ever made.

TiVo isn't perfect -- the Series 3 has its own unique glitches, and the new 9.3a code seems buggy... but compared to the nightmare of the HR20 (both UI and reliability) it's sheer heaven and second to none on the market at the time.

TiVo has so many cool features that the HR20 doesn't that the $150 is EASILY justified.

TiVo to Go
Moving shows from one TiVo to another
Listening to my computer's \Users\Music collection over a TiVo
No phone jack (wireless/internet communiction)
TiVo Desktop software

Seriously. Pay the $150, get out of your contract, and return home to TiVo. You won't regret it.

Jester


----------



## shibby191

llarch said:


> 1. The post wasn't directed to you, 2. I didn't report issues with reboot time, 3. I do understand the concept; no issues before the boxes were swapped, no other changes, boxes swapped, issues now. Occam's razor would suggested it is issues with the box, to suggest otherwise is going a long way to avoid the obvious.


You aren't listening though. It is widely known that the new KA band takes a higher grade cable and connectors because of the higher frequency. Unfortunately many people have wiring that's "just good enough" for the past but isn't good enough now. Wiring ends up being the cause of problems a lot more then you realize. One only needs to go to Satguys, AVS or DBSTalk and do minimal research on this to know this is true.

A quick example: There was a guy who had all these problems on his HR20 with OTA. Shows not recorded, pixelization, signal issues and so forth. Weather got nice and he decided to check on his OTA cable. Guess what? The cable had split and water had got inside thus ruining the cable. He replaced the cable and amazingly all his problems went away. Imagine that? 

Again, this may not be the problem for Ann, but it *is* the problem in many, many cases. And unfortunately the poor techs that DirecTV has for service calls will rarely find this kind of problem unless you get on them. And it's pretty darn easy to troubleshoot this problem yourself if you want to take a little bit of time to do it. But again, people would rather just blame the box instead.


----------



## Scooter

llarch said:


> A wiring problem? Please, come on. Guess you've never heard of occam's razor. It's not a wiring problem, the issues with the HR21s come and go with various firmware updates. For example, I lost functionality of the 30 skip button with a particular firmware update a month ago, then I got the functionality back with the latest national release. It is pretty clear the boxes have issues.


Yes, wiring. I'm not talking about firmware updates.

A little reminder from earlier in the thread.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6061745#post6061745
I'd recommend clicking on the link in that post.

I've said enough about this. No need repeating myself over and over.

Scooter


----------



## shibby191

llarch said:


> For example, I lost functionality of the 30 skip button with a particular firmware update a month ago, then I got the functionality back with the latest national release. It is pretty clear the boxes have issues.


FYI that the 30 sec skip is a backdoor code (i.e. not supported) accessed by a special search string. A software update could very well have deactivated the 30 sec skip and all you need to do is perform that backdoor search code again to get it back. It happens. Kinda like how the 30 sec skip on a Tivo is a backdoor code (i.e. not supported) but it's lost on any reboot requiring you to re-enable it.


----------



## Mark Lopez

llarch said:


> 3. I do understand the concept; no issues before the boxes were swapped, *no other changes*, boxes swapped, issues now. Occam's razor would suggested it is issues with the box, to suggest otherwise is going a long way to avoid the obvious.


Ummm... New dish was needed. You are obviously missing the obvious. 



llarch said:


> As far as multiple boxes having the same issues, that's what one would expect since they have the same specs, config, software, etc.
> 
> Could it be that these boxes just have issues? Yes, that is again, very obvious....


Or, that the common items (dish, cables etc) are actually the problem.


----------



## shibby191

Scooter said:


> Yes, wiring. I'm not talking about firmware updates.
> 
> A little reminder from earlier in the thread.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6061745#post6061745
> I'd recommend clicking on the link in that post.
> 
> I've said enough about this. No need repeating myself over and over.
> 
> Scooter


Oh snap. Didn't I just say all those things? 

People just don't want to do minimal research on these things. They'd rather blame the "HR20 Army" then to actually figure out that their 8 year old RG6 cable or connectors may not be capable of handling the new high frequency signals. Oh well...

Perhaps Ann should show her installer those tech videos on Solid Signal on how to properly install and upgrade a customer and maybe they'll learn something.


----------



## Scooter

shibby191 said:


> Oh snap. Didn't I just say all those things?


Sorry, I had my reply window open while you were posting. Perhaps it was worthy of a repeat. 

Scooter


----------



## shibby191

Scooter said:


> Sorry, I had my reply window open while you were posting. Perhaps it was worthy of a repeat.
> 
> Scooter


I was actually laughing at it. I think myself and a couple others have repeated this a few times today but some people just won't listen. Your post was great because it actually pointed people to real "evidence" that perhaps they'll believe.

By the way, the reason my my 10 year old cables didn't give me a problem is because they are true copper core. Glad i paid the extra bucks for them back then, saved me a lot of trouble.

I personally could care less if people here believe any of this but I think it's important that people understand there is a lot more going on then just "the DirecTV DVR sucks". I mean if unit after unit is "bad" then my brain starts to think there is another problem. The bigger problem in Ann's case is that the techs don't want to hear any of that and just say everything is fine and want to blame the receiver. If they'd actually do their job and make sure all cables and connectors and grounding blocks were rated up to 2.5 ghz they would probably save themselves (and the customers) and whole lot of headaches.

And I can't count how many times I have told people, if you can't live without Tivo then don't. Call up cable and be done with it. Be happy.


----------



## rminsk

shibby191 said:


> People just don't want to do minimal research on these things. They'd rather blame the "HR20 Army" then to actually figure out that their 8 year old RG6 cable or connectors may not be capable of handling the new high frequency signals. Oh well...


and maybe people should also realize that the cables may be just fine and the equipment may have many bugs.


----------



## shibby191

rminsk said:


> and maybe people should also realize that the cables may be just fine and the equipment may have many bugs.


Ummm, no one is denying that. But if you're on your 3rd receiver and it's still got the same problems that the other 2 had, one should start to think that something else may be the problem. And wiring not rated to 2.5 ghz is just an easy example of how you can have a problem only on the DirecTV DVRs and not see it on the HR10. HR10 only needs rated wiring and components to 1 ghz, the HR20/21 require 2.5. And pretty much any install older then 3 years is only going to have stuff rated to 1 ghz. Hmmmmmmm.....

You really do have to wonder how many of the problems really are because of this though.


----------



## llarch

Scooter said:


> Yes, wiring. I'm not talking about firmware updates.
> 
> A little reminder from earlier in the thread.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6061745#post6061745
> I'd recommend clicking on the link in that post.
> 
> I've said enough about this. No need repeating myself over and over.
> 
> Scooter


Seen that thread, I know you were talking about wiring, I mentioned firmware because I see problems come and go with the different firmware releases, the issues I'm referring to aren't related to wiring, for example, as I stated, issues with pause, go back (not responding to remote, long delays).


----------



## llarch

shibby191 said:


> FYI that the 30 sec skip is a backdoor code (i.e. not supported) accessed by a special search string. A software update could very well have deactivated the 30 sec skip and all you need to do is perform that backdoor search code again to get it back. It happens. Kinda like how the 30 sec skip on a Tivo is a backdoor code (i.e. not supported) but it's lost on any reboot requiring you to re-enable it.


I wasn't referring to the skip related to the backdoor code, I never entered the backdoor code. I was just referring to the normal functionality of the skip forward button, it worked from day 1, then it didn't work when a particular firmware update was made a month ago, then it is now working again with the latest firmware update, I did nothing. Again, obviously not related to wiring.


----------



## llarch

Mark Lopez said:


> Ummm... New dish was needed. You are obviously missing the obvious.
> 
> Or, that the common items (dish, cables etc) are actually the problem.


How are the new boxes also not part of the common items??? If it were related to cabling I wouldn't see problems come and go with new firmware upadates.

Can't speak for others, just making an observation, that in my case, the two HR21s I have, or at least the firmware/software that is running them, is garbage.


----------



## Scooter

Are you running the current beta software, llarch?


----------



## llarch

Scooter said:


> Are you running the current beta software, llarch?


Nope, the full national release.

BTW, it would be great if the issues were related to the cabling, I would definitely replace it if it made all my issues with the HR21s go away, I'm going to check tonight on the Ghz rating.


----------



## Scooter

llarch: Ah, you had me wondering with all of the firmware updates you were talking about. If you happen to have a pair of spare b-band converters available, I'd try swapping those too. I'd try anything and everything you can. (look for the simple stuff first)

Good luck.

Scooter


----------



## Mark Lopez

llarch said:


> How are the new boxes also not part of the common items??? If it were related to cabling I wouldn't see problems come and go with new firmware upadates.


Again, boxes were changed - same problem. Possible, but unlikely that the replacements would behave exactly like the first. The most likely culprit is an item common to all of them. So the odds that it's something other than the box are pretty high.

BTW, we were not discussing your problem.

On a related note, I have WildBlue satellite Internet. It too uses the Ka band and there initially were many people complaining about problems. Most turned out to be from bad installs and using the wrong rated cables.


----------



## shibby191

llarch said:


> I wasn't referring to the skip related to the backdoor code, I never entered the backdoor code. I was just referring to the normal functionality of the skip forward button, it worked from day 1, then it didn't work when a particular firmware update was made a month ago, then it is now working again with the latest firmware update, I did nothing. Again, obviously not related to wiring.


Understood. That is a bug I hadn't heard of before. It wasn't reports on DBSTalk or at least not a lot of people had it so it wasn't very noticable. Must just been a glitch on your system of a bug that didn't effect a lot of people. Hey, bugs happen, no one is denying that at all. And of course this issue wouldn't be the cause of wiring. And be sure any time you see something like this to report it in the issues thread for your release on DBSTalk. The DirecTV engineers do check those threads daily for issues and address many of them in that week's CE test release. For example there were some recent reports of DD 5.1 issues on Yamaha and Onkyo receivers. The latest CE release (that just went national) addressed that very issue.

Common causes of wiring/connectors/LNB issues:
1) Loss of signal (721 errors)
2) Blank recordings (because of loss of signal at the time)
3) Pixelization or other "interference" related video/audio issues
4) Video/audio dropouts
5) Loss of signal on just one tuner

And you'd see this mainly on the MPEG4 channels. But you might also see them on the SD and MPEG2 channels, in particular if one of the tuners is on an MPEG4 channel (thus something of high frequency is going down the cables).

And a HUGE cause of these issues is having OTA diplexed into the line which you can NOT do with the 5 LNB dish and many installers fail to take the OTA line out. You'd be amazed at home many problems have been solved by simply removing the diplexed OTA line and running the OTA on it's on separate line. 

Now certainly software bugs can cause any of these as well. That's why troubleshooting is important. You can't do a whole lot about software issues other then complain and/or participate in the CE program to stamp out the bugs. But you *can* troubleshoot the other parts of your system a lot of times that the techs/installers don't seem to bother with. And as Mark pointed out...if you have had several boxes and they all do the same bad things, you have to admit that it starts to look like something else is causing the problem. That is one bad string of luck otherwise.

Good luck!


----------



## llarch

Mark Lopez said:


> Again, boxes were changed - same problem. Possible, but unlikely that the replacements would behave exactly like the first. The most likely culprit is an item common to all of them. So the odds that it's something other than the box are pretty high.
> 
> BTW, we were not discussing your problem.
> 
> On a related note, I have WildBlue satellite Internet. It too uses the Ka band and there initially were many people complaining about problems. Most turned out to be from bad installs and using the wrong rated cables.


For Mark, Scooter and Shibby,

Just to (hopefully) close on the topic of issues I've been having with the HR21s;

I checked my cabling, it is all 2.2Ghz, solid copper core, no barrel connectors, no long runs, excellent condition.

Also to clarify none of my issues are related to issues you would associate with insufficient cabling; I have no PQ issues, no 721 errors, no long reboots, no loss of signal on just one tuner, no pixelization or other "interference" related video/audio issues, I have excellent signal strength etc.

Also to clarify, all my issues correspond to the bug fix issues reported by DirecTV in the release notes in the last few firmware updates for my boxes, those are (taken directly from the DirecTV release notes of the last two national releases);

01 - Stability
02 - Fixed search by title lockup
02 - Fixed deleting on Stop & Delete OSD deletes all partial recordings of current program
02 - Fixed stopping a currently recording series deletes series from prioritizer
02 - Fixed Prioritizer link inside a new Series link points to the top show in the Prioritizer instead of the new show
02 - Stability Fixes & Media-Share performance
02 - A program info screens prioritizer link has been fixed
03 - Recording issues with "Delete because of it's recording permissions"
03 - Stability
Guide scrolling performance
01 - GameSearch avoids partial recordings while searching for games
01 - Stability improvements 
02 - Detection of second tuner
02 - UI polishing/fixes
02 - DIRECTV Mediashare (many)
02 - Stability
02 - Elimination of rare cases of gray screen
03 - Stability
03 - Audio going from LiveTV to review buffer
03 - Resolution change in native when moving from LiveTV to review buffer
03 - Removed conflict icon for VOD recordings
03 - Thumbnails in MediaShare
03 - guide scrolling performance
04 - IRD locking onto incorrect resolution on channel change
04 - Stability

End DirecTV release notes for HR21-700. Notice DirecTV mentions "stability" several times....

I have not suffered from all the issues listed above but all the issues I was writing about earlier are listed above (again, by DirecTV).

Hopefully this info will put to rest any speculation as to whether my issues are related to cabling vs. the boxes themselves.


----------



## shibby191

llarch said:


> Hopefully this info will put to rest any speculation as to whether my issues are related to cabling vs. the boxes themselves.


I don't think any of us were. We are referring to Justapixel and a few others with similar problems to hers. Hopefully things get better for you.


----------



## llarch

shibby191 said:


> I don't think any of us were. We are referring to Justapixel and a few others with similar problems to hers. Hopefully things get better for you.


Mark and Scooter clearly indicated they thought the issues I reported were cable related.


----------



## terpfan1980

New national release software.

News can be found here



DBSTalk.com said:


> DIRECTV - HR20 / HR21 HD DVRs : New software 0x022b.
> 
> Release notes:
> HR20-700 • HR20-100 • HR21-100 • HR21-200 / HR21Pro • HR21-700


(See original link for links to the release notes....)


----------



## Mark Lopez

llarch said:


> Mark and Scooter clearly indicated they thought the issues I reported were cable related.


No, I apologize if you thought I was talking about your problems. Since we were discussing Ann's issue, I misunderstood your comments to be in reference to the issues she was having.


----------



## rickmeoff

rminsk said:


> and maybe people should also realize that the cables may be just fine and the equipment may have many bugs.


i have similar problems to what you are experiencing, it just doesnt bother me much anymore. we have backup units, so when a recording is missed its no big deal.

but i can most assuredly state that.....at least in our house......it is *not* 'the wiring.'

where i fully understand that this can (and is) an issue with many folks whom experience problems, its not with ours (and doesnt sound like it is with your either).

as people have already stated with the hr2x: it seems that dtv quality control isnt the best, as many folks have gone through several units before getting one that works well. its simply the luck of the draw imo.


----------



## tlrowley

bdowell said:


> New national release software.
> 
> News can be found here
> 
> (See original link for links to the release notes....)


And with this update, I've gone from "not liking" my HR20 to hating it - I have no optical audio output anymore. Well done, D*. I really want to debug audio problems at 6:15am.


----------



## ebonovic

tlrowley said:


> And with this update, I've gone from "not liking" my HR20 to hating it - I have no optical audio output anymore. Well done, D*. I really want to debug audio problems at 6:15am.


With what software version?
And what receiver?

With the 0x22b they have specificly improved the Optical DD compatibility output that affected some receivers with the 0x221.


----------



## kaszeta

bdowell said:


> New national release software.
> 
> News can be found here


I got this, and it 771'ed my HR20-100, but a reset seems to have restored everything.


----------



## tlrowley

ebonovic said:


> With what software version?
> And what receiver?
> 
> With the 0x22b they have specificly improved the Optical DD compatibility output that affected some receivers with the 0x221.


0x22b - as of today at 2:49am. They certainly haven't improved DD compatibility with the Pio 1014. I've reset everything and can't get a signal. Color me unimpressed.....


----------



## 94SupraTT

adbjester said:


> TiVo has so many cool features that the HR20 doesn't that the $150 is EASILY justified.
> 
> Listening to my computer's \Users\Music collection over a TiVo


The HR2x has mediashare I use it all the time to watch video, listen to MP3s and view pictures from my PC.


----------



## Bananfish

Bananfish said:


> Saturday night: The DirecTV installer finished installing my "free upgrade" HR21 (at 11:30 PM - the installation is a whole 'nother story).
> 
> Sunday night: I put in my season passes in (or whatever they're called in the HR21)
> 
> Monday afternoon: The HR21 froze up by 3 PM or so.
> 
> When I tried to watch Daily Show/Colbert around 9 on Monday, I couldn't get the unit to respond to the remote or button presses on the unit itself. I called DirecTV and did a reboot, which got the unit working, but confirmed that those recordings didn't occur. Not a big deal, since I got the next showing at 10, but ....
> 
> this is not an auspicious start to my relationship with the HR21, DirecTV.
> 
> On the other hand, as to the HR10-250 that they swapped out for the HR21 in my family room - I was able to get them to put it in the bedroom. So I still do have some TiVo - just not able to take advantage of the HD on it ... yet. (And who knows, maybe I can get them to swap it out again someday - maybe even for a TiVo!)


I had another freeze yesterday (Thursday) - so that's 5 days of use, 2 freezes. I discovered the freeze when I went to watch TV at 9:07 PM, so I missed the first 7 minutes of the Office, and didn't get Daily Show/Colbert (at least not from 8-9). I won't tell you how pissed I'd have been if I had missed Lost because of this issue.


----------



## justapixel

I'm cautiously optimistic. (And, knocking wood furiously as I type this.)

My new box has not missed a recording. I'm not getting pixellation. 

I have some artifacts during movement but I can live with that.
It had that one period of lock-up. Concerning, yes. I'm not willing to call it a problem yet. If it happens again, then I will complain again.
It does have an audio problem. Using the HDMI cable means no audio out. We had that problem with our first box and upgraded the firmware on our TV, which solved it. I don't know why it's happening again. It could be the TV or it could be the box. But, using component cables fixes it.

I haven't had these few problems since the original install.


I am supposed to send my old one back - I got the box. I really really don't want Direct TV to wipe the hard drive and give it to anybody else. I'm so tempted to scratch up the box or engrave "refurb" on it somewhere. But, I don't want to be charged.


----------



## shibby191

Glad to hear this box is better.



justapixel said:


> I have some artifacts during movement but I can live with that.


This is completely normal. I see it on HD channels from DirecTV, Dish, OTA and cable. So I wouldn't worry about that at all frankly.


----------



## Budget_HT

justapixel said:


> ... It does have an audio problem. Using the HDMI cable means no audio out. We had that problem with our first box and upgraded the firmware on our TV, which solved it. I don't know why it's happening again. It could be the TV or it could be the box. But, using component cables fixes it. ...


Most TVs will not accept Dolby Digital audio over an HDMI connection. The typical solution is to set the audio output option of the DVR to "PCM stereo" which is compatible with most TVs.


----------



## justapixel

Budget_HT said:


> Most TVs will not accept Dolby Digital audio over an HDMI connection. The typical solution is to set the audio output option of the DVR to "PCM stereo" which is compatible with most TVs.


I don't think we have it set to Dolby but I will double-check. Thank you for the tip.

Geez, I hope this works out.

If anybody is thinking of switching over and gets through this thread - I would absolutely insist on a new box and not a refurb before agreeing to a new contract. It's outrageous that they have warehouses full of refurbs that haven't worked in other people's homes and just ship them around the country to other homes. I guess Direct TV is like the Catholic church of hardware.  You just know all they do is wipe the hard drive and ship 'em out. If everybody insisted on new ones, maybe they wouldn't do that.

I am a refurb buyer, by the way. The laptop I'm typing this from is a refurb and I've had lots of them. Most work fine but not all. The tech told me he'd tracked some of them and they'd been in "7 or 8 homes all over the country." After the box has more than one complaint you'd think they'd stop shipping them out.


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> If anybody is thinking of switching over and gets through this thread - I would absolutely insist on a new box and not a refurb before agreeing to a new contract. It's outrageous that they have warehouses full of refurbs that haven't worked in other people's homes and just ship them around the country to other homes.


I think it's a a stretch to claim that there is some big problems with refurbs. You make it sound like they just put returns in a box without any testing and ship them back out.

BTW, 2 of my 3 HR20s are refurbs and work perfectly. Of course I don't have a dish, wiring or TV issue either.


----------



## justapixel

Mark Lopez said:


> Of course I don't have a dish, wiring or TV issue either.


Neither do I but thank you for the insightful comment once again.

I thought you said you were going to stay out of this thread?

And, in fact, I thought you were going to stay out of this forum? What changed your mind so quickly?


----------



## Mark Lopez

justapixel said:


> Neither do I but thank you for the insightful comment once again.
> 
> I thought you said you were going to stay out of this thread?
> 
> And, in fact, I thought you were going to stay out of this forum? What changed your mind so quickly?


I believe i said that I would make a deal that if a certain other person who doesn't even have either unit or even DirecTV quit posting, so would I. 

As for not having a dish, or wiring problem, quite a few others seem to agree that you may have some other issue. But for some reason, you don't seem to be jumping on them. Go figure.

But the bottom line is that you have no basis for claiming refurbs are any more unreliable than a new unit or insinuating that DirecTV is sending out units they know are bad. As a matter of fact, there have been several threads in the general forum about refurbs (not just DVRs) where most people seem to agree that a refurb probably is even more reliable than a new unit since it has most likely been tested more thoroughly than a new unit coming off an assembly line.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Mark Lopez said:


> I think it's a a stretch to claim that there is some big problems with refurbs. You make it sound like they just put returns in a box without any testing and ship them back out...


Well, that may be true. How do we know they don't just sprinkle them with holy water? (Sorry, still grinning over that "Catholic church" reference)

I think it makes sense that DTV would want refurbs to be tested and fixed, but I think many times they set them up, do a couple of simultaneous recordings, run it through the diagnostics and shove it in the "good" pile. What more would you have them do, and just how much time and effort should they be expected to put into a refurb, realistically?

If it passes all of the perfunctory tests that new boxes coming off the assembly line pass, what else can they do? (And really, that puts both a new and a refurb in the same category as to how likely they each will continue to work).

I worked in a Zenith assembly line back in the day, and that same reality probably applies today.

BTW, Mark, keep posting. At least you make things, uh..."interesting".


----------



## jimb726

justapixel said:


> I don't think we have it set to Dolby but I will double-check. Thank you for the tip.
> 
> Geez, I hope this works out.
> 
> If anybody is thinking of switching over and gets through this thread - I would absolutely insist on a new box and not a refurb before agreeing to a new contract. It's outrageous that they have warehouses full of refurbs that haven't worked in other people's homes and just ship them around the country to other homes. I guess Direct TV is like the Catholic church of hardware.  You just know all they do is wipe the hard drive and ship 'em out. If everybody insisted on new ones, maybe they wouldn't do that.
> 
> I am a refurb buyer, by the way. The laptop I'm typing this from is a refurb and I've had lots of them. Most work fine but not all. The tech told me he'd tracked some of them and they'd been in "7 or 8 homes all over the country." After the box has more than one complaint you'd think they'd stop shipping them out.


Personally I think that a lot of the refurbs are fine (I do not dispute that there are bad boxes out there in any way shape or form), I do think that for a long time it was very easy to just send out a replacement for any issue at all, and this further complicates it for people who have issues because now you have a pool that is diluted to the point that it is difficult to find pattern failures. It does suck because I personally like the box, but I sure can see where folks who have multiple failures and problems would sour on it very very quickly.


----------



## Bananfish

bananfish said:


> Saturday night: The DirecTV installer finished installing my "free upgrade" HR21 (at 11:30 PM - the installation is a whole 'nother story).
> 
> Sunday night: I put in my season passes in (or whatever they're called in the HR21)
> 
> Monday afternoon: The HR21 froze up by 3 PM or so.
> 
> When I tried to watch Daily Show/Colbert around 9 on Monday, I couldn't get the unit to respond to the remote or button presses on the unit itself. I called DirecTV and did a reboot, which got the unit working, but confirmed that those recordings didn't occur. Not a big deal, since I got the next showing at 10, but ....
> 
> this is not an auspicious start to my relationship with the HR21, DirecTV.
> 
> On the other hand, as to the HR10-250 that they swapped out for the HR21 in my family room - I was able to get them to put it in the bedroom. So I still do have some TiVo - just not able to take advantage of the HD on it ... yet. (And who knows, maybe I can get them to swap it out again someday - maybe even for a TiVo!)
> 
> 
> 
> Bananfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had another freeze yesterday (Thursday) - so that's 5 days of use, 2 freezes. I discovered the freeze when I went to watch TV at 9:07 PM, so I missed the first 7 minutes of the Office, and didn't get Daily Show/Colbert (at least not from 8-9). I won't tell you how pissed I'd have been if I had missed Lost because of this issue.
Click to expand...

Freeze number 3 on Saturday evening. I'm petrified of missing recordings this week - playoff basketball and hockey with my favorite teams, and finally original programming is back in gear after the writers strike.

I called DirecTV, and they told me "keep calling when it happens and eventually we can offer you a replacement." Great - and how do I know that one's gonna work?

Three or years with an HR10-250, and it never missed a recording (at least not without help from my stupidity, a network programming change or something else out of its control.)


----------



## newsposter

my wife said the hr20 also froze late night this weekend...2nd time in a month..maybe it is the new software


----------



## Mark Lopez

newsposter said:


> ..maybe it is the new software


I know some here think I'm only a DirecTV DVR supporter, but I'm not. I've always tried to stay objective when it comes to the HR10 and HR20 citing that they both have their pros/cons and issues. While I stand by my comments that I still think the HR2x overall is a better unit, I will give DirecTV a big :down: for releasing the latest update even though many of the CE testers were reporting a lot of problems especially with the last couple of versions. And yet they decided to release it anyway. While I personally have not experienced any of the bigger problems (yet) that this new NR is causing people, it did break my Media Share (the last 2 CEs broke it for me and a lot of people) that was working fine before. And I don't feel very confident that I won't be seeing some of the lockups and other problems too that appear to be on the rise with this release. OTOH, I do feel that they will fix things quickly if it turns out to be a widespread problem


----------



## newsposter

i have to qualify..it froze up plus she said one show stopped at 56 (it's an hour show) and the bar showed it recorded 1:22. But no matter what you did it wouldnt FF thru past 56

and other show only got 8 minutes of the hour recorded.


----------



## shibby191

I'd agree the latest software release is indeed buggy. While I personally haven't encountered the issues (yet) others have.

I think they released this quickly despite issues because of another bigger bug which they fixed. The latest CE cycle that started last weekend looks to be mostly a "bug fix" cycle it appears. Although the first signs of MRV are in it.


----------



## Bananfish

This week's recording of House had only a grey screen - this was from my local Fox station, which I know I get fine (I checked). I'm still new with my unit, so I'm not sure if I screwed something up - any explanation for a grey screen other than box error?


----------



## pendragn

Bananfish said:


> This week's recording of House had only a grey screen - this was from my local Fox station, which I know I get fine (I checked). I'm still new with my unit, so I'm not sure if I screwed something up - any explanation for a grey screen other than box error?


Try rebooting and see if the if recording is good. That happened to us a couple of times. The recording was bad even though we knew the station was good. Rebooting the DVR cleared it up.

tk


----------



## TyroneShoes

newsposter said:


> my wife said the hr20 also froze late night this weekend...2nd time in a month..maybe it is the new software


Rumor has it on DBSTalk that there were lots of lockups Saturday night, which could be a glitch in the sat signal.


----------



## jimb726

TyroneShoes said:


> Rumor has it on DBSTalk that there were lots of lockups Saturday night, which could be a glitch in the sat signal.


Actually what was happening was a continuous boot cycle, but it only seemed to affect the HR20-100's. Mine looped both Friday and Saturday nights, but my HR20-700 didnt and neither did my HR-21. It was wierd, but I believe that the actual number of boxes it did it to was under 20 out of the group downloading.


----------



## RS4

Mark Lopez said:


> I know some here think I'm only a DirecTV DVR supporter, but I'm not. I've always tried to stay objective when it comes to the HR10 and HR20 citing that they both have their pros/cons and issues. While I stand by my comments that I still think the HR2x overall is a better unit, I will give DirecTV a big :down: for releasing the latest update even though many of the CE testers were reporting a lot of problems especially with the last couple of versions. And yet they decided to release it anyway. While I personally have not experienced any of the bigger problems (yet) that this new NR is causing people, it did break my Media Share (the last 2 CEs broke it for me and a lot of people) that was working fine before. And I don't feel very confident that I won't be seeing some of the lockups and other problems too that appear to be on the rise with this release. OTOH, I do feel that they will fix things quickly if it turns out to be a widespread problem


well, let's see, it's taken them a year and a half to fix things, so maybe your wish will come true in say, Oct '09


----------



## TyroneShoes

jimb726 said:


> Actually what was happening was a continuous boot cycle, but it only seemed to affect the HR20-100's. Mine looped both Friday and Saturday nights, but my HR20-700 didnt and neither did my HR-21. It was wierd, but I believe that the actual number of boxes it did it to was under 20 out of the group downloading.


That was your experience. There are at least 4 threads accross forums, some 7 pages long, that refer to lockups, and no one in them seems to be posting about reboot loops. At least three people have reported both of their HR20's locked up at the exact same time, which by itself points to a systemic issue rather than incidental hardware issues. Every post regarding a system-wide problem is typically considered to represent another 50 who also had the problem yet just didn't post about it.

So something significant and widespread happened. Let's hope it was an isolated incident.


----------



## jimb726

TyroneShoes said:


> That was your experience. There are at least 4 threads accross forums, some 7 pages long, that refer to lockups, and no one in them seems to be posting about reboot loops. At least three people have reported both of their HR20's locked up at the exact same time, which by itself points to a systemic issue rather than incidental hardware issues. Every post regarding a system-wide problem is typically considered to represent another 50 who also had the problem yet just didn't post about it.
> 
> So something significant and widespread happened. Let's hope it was an isolated incident.


I am not dicountining wht you say, there are however several threads about the contant reboot loop, so I am not sure where you are looking. The entire Cutting Edge forum was talking about it, to the point of tracking dates of manufacture and to the point where the HR20 bashers were claiming that it was a widespread problem when there were approximately 20 users that were having the issue.


----------



## shibby191

jimb726 said:


> I am not dicountining wht you say, there are however several threads about the contant reboot loop, so I am not sure where you are looking. The entire Cutting Edge forum was talking about it, to the point of tracking dates of manufacture and to the point where the HR20 bashers were claiming that it was a widespread problem when there were approximately 20 users that were having the issue.


That is a different issue then the recent lockups. The recent national release and the last CE's have given just about everyone lockup problems. There are several threads on DBSTalk and Satguys about it. There is a bug. They seemed to fix a couple nasty bugs but someone this lockup bug slipped thru. However there weren't a lot of lockup posts before it went national so who knows what happened at this point.

I think it's the first real bad bug in well over a year and a half.


----------



## rminsk

shibby191 said:


> I think it's the first real bad bug in well over a year and a half.


You mean besides missed recordings, black recordings, short recordings, audio drop outs, ...?


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> well, let's see, it's taken them a year and a half to fix things, so maybe your wish will come true in say, Oct '09


I was wondering how long it would take for you to chime in with your FUD. 

Once again I have to ask (of course you still won't answer), why do you keep posting here when you don't have a HR10, HR2x or even DirecTV?

In any case, at least my comments are objective (unlike some people). I don't sling the mud only in one direction. As I've said, I still think the HR2x is a superior product. And I've yet to have any of these bigger bugs on any of my 3 units. The only thing that does not work correctly any more is Media Share, but that is actually still beta (and it says it right on the screen), so I can't complain about that.

I do think though that they rushed this release. I have followed the CE group for a while and have participated in the last several rounds. This seems to be the first time that more issues were coming up than were getting resolved with each release. And the 'permissions bug' that cropped up just recently (and bit me twice in a CE cycle) only got one more CE update before going NR, and that was only out for about a week or so before they released it. So I think they screwed up by not giving it a little more time to see if it really was fixed.

Now that said, there have already been new CE releases and it certainly is not going to take until Oct 09 to resolve these things.

Oh and BTW, for someone who loves to post polls, oddly you missed this one http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=126419. And if you read through it, most of those who voted no are those who are still hung up on the DLB non-issue.


----------



## 20TIL6

Mark Lopez said:


> I was wondering how long it would take for you to chime in with your FUD.
> 
> Once again I have to ask (of course you still won't answer), why do you keep posting here when you don't have a HR10, HR2x or even DirecTV?
> 
> In any case, at least my comments are objective (unlike some people). I don't sling the mud only in one direction.


I don't think RS4 ever stated that he would stop posting here. You on the otherhand,

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=390795


----------



## Mark Lopez

20TIL6 said:


> I don't think RS4 ever stated that he would stop posting here. You on the otherhand,
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=390795


For the reading imparied, in that thread I said:



> *I will try* to refrain from posting in this sub-forum any more. Well, maybe I should make a deal and say that *if RS4 (who doesn't even have DirecTV) stops posting, then so will I.*


Regardless, at least I own the units and actually have DirecTV. Why does he refuse to answer a simple question? 

And as I said before, those who support his baseless bashing do more harm to their cause than good. It only shows how weak of a case they have if they need that sort of 'support'.


----------



## shibby191

rminsk said:


> You mean besides missed recordings, black recordings, short recordings, audio drop outs, ...?


Well, those aren't widespread and most people don't have them.

The lockups however have effected just about anyone. A quick read of DBSTalk will show that.

That is what I was referring to, a bad bug that effected more then just a few people. This one is widespread. I'd be surprised if even Earl didn't get a lockup on this one.

Of course wasn't there a Tivo update a couple versions ago that caused all kinds of lockups on the HR10? Oh that's right, I shouldn't bring up Tivo problems in comparison because Tivo is perfect.  

Anyway, there are bugs, but one this bad hasn't been seen in a long, long time.


----------



## jimb726

shibby191 said:


> That is a different issue then the recent lockups. The recent national release and the last CE's have given just about everyone lockup problems. There are several threads on DBSTalk and Satguys about it. There is a bug. They seemed to fix a couple nasty bugs but someone this lockup bug slipped thru. However there weren't a lot of lockup posts before it went national so who knows what happened at this point.
> 
> I think it's the first real bad bug in well over a year and a half.


I knew that I misunderstood Tyrone, I thought he was saying I was wrong about the boot loops. I know I wasnt since I was one who had it. Twice!


----------



## 20TIL6

Mark Lopez said:


> For the reading imparied, in that thread I said:
> 
> Regardless, at least I own the units and actually have DirecTV. Why does he refuse to answer a simple question?
> 
> And as I said before, those who support his baseless bashing do more harm to their cause than good. It only shows how weak of a case they have if they need that sort of 'support'.


Who is more out of place?

A person who owns a TiVo (albeit not getting content from DirecTV) and posting in a sub forum labeled DirecTV on a message board named..... TIVOcommunity.

or

A person who does not use anything remotely labeled as TiVo, but uses DirecTV services/equipment exclusively, and posts in a sub forum labeled DirecTV on a message board named..... TIVOcommunity.

impaired

adjective
1. weakened, diminished, or damaged: _DirecTV's quality of service and value since discontinuing support of TiVo DVRs._ 
2. functioning poorly or inadequately: _See DirecTV HR20/HR21._ 
3. deficient or incompetent (usually prec. by an adverb or noun): _The executive managment team at DirecTV._


----------



## Mark Lopez

20TIL6 said:


> Who is more out of place?
> 
> A person who owns a TiVo (albeit not getting content from DirecTV) and posting in a sub forum labeled DirecTV on a message board named..... TIVOcommunity.
> 
> or
> 
> A person who does not use anything remotely labeled as TiVo, but uses DirecTV services/equipment exclusively, and posts in a sub forum labeled DirecTV on a message board named..... TIVOcommunity.


Well let's see. It seems the questions should be:

A person who has owned Tivo for 9+ years (that would be me in case you missed my join date and the thousands of pro Tivo posts I have made over those years) and who also owns 3 HR20s and posts on a sub forum for DirecTV HD DVRs which specifically allows the discussion of non-Tivo based units (in case you missed the sticky at the top due to the reading impairment ).

or

A person who repeatedly bashes a product they have never used, makes half truth claims that they have only 'heard about', and who does not even own a DirecTV based Tivo or even have DirecTV, and yet continues to post in a DirecTV HD DVR forum (that would be RS4 in case you haven't noticed).

So you tell me who is more out of place?


----------



## rickmeoff

Mark Lopez said:


> Well let's see. It seems the questions should be:
> 
> A person who has owned Tivo for 9+ years (that would be me in case you missed my join date and the thousands of pro Tivo posts I have made over those years) and who also owns 3 HR20s and posts on a sub forum for DirecTV HD DVRs which specifically allows the discussion of non-Tivo based units (in case you missed the sticky at the top due to the reading impairment ).
> 
> or
> 
> A person who repeatedly bashes a product they have never used, makes half truth claims that they have only 'heard about', and who does not even own a DirecTV based Tivo or even have DirecTV, and yet continues to post in a DirecTV HD DVR forum (that would be RS4 in case you haven't noticed).
> 
> So you tell me who is more out of place?


or
a person that fully supported a unit that he had never owned/leased.......even voting favorably in an 'owners poll' without ever having one in his possession (although he messed with one in a store)?


----------



## rminsk

shibby191 said:


> Well, those aren't widespread and most people don't have them.
> 
> The lockups however have effected just about anyone. A quick read of DBSTalk will show that.


I guess I read a different DBSTalk than you do because there are almost daily reports of missed, blank, short recordings.


> That is what I was referring to, a bad bug that effected more then just a few people. This one is widespread. I'd be surprised if even Earl didn't get a lockup on this one.


Missed, blank, and short recordings a very widespread. People just seem to accept it as normal behavior now.


> Of course wasn't there a Tivo update a couple versions ago that caused all kinds of lockups on the HR10? Oh that's right, I shouldn't bring up Tivo problems in comparison because Tivo is perfect.


Did I mention the TiVo in my reply. I was just responding to your assertion that the HR2X has not had a major bug in 18 months. 


> Anyway, there are bugs, but one this bad hasn't been seen in a long, long time.


At least in a month.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

20TIL6 said:


> Who is more out of place?
> 
> A person who owns a TiVo bla bla bla


I missed the part where you have to have a TIVO to participate here. 

I would rather read an opinion from someone who has used a product than someone who hasn't even touched one and uses hearsay exclusively to form his opinion.


----------



## shibby191

rminsk said:


> I guess I read a different DBSTalk than you do because there are almost daily reports of missed, blank, short recordings.


I guess I have a different view of a couple posts here and there about a problem vs. a few dozen+ page threads with hundreds of posts in just a couple days in terms of the severity of the problem. But hey, to each his own.


----------



## Mark Lopez

rickmeoff said:


> or
> a person that fully supported a unit that he had never owned/leased.......even voting favorably in an 'owners poll' without ever having one in his possession (although he messed with one in a store)?


or

Someone who has to keep fabricating the same lie in order to discredit someone who was honest about how they came about their opinions, met the 'core criteria' of the poll, and how those opinions did not change after actually leasing the unit. And for the record (again), I never 'messed with one in a store'. So please, either get your story straight, or at least come up with a better lie. That one has been beaten to death.


----------



## 20TIL6

Jebberwocky! said:


> I missed the part where you have to have a TIVO to participate here.
> 
> I would rather read an opinion from someone who has used a product than someone who hasn't even touched one and uses hearsay exclusively to form his opinion.


Yes, you must have missed that requirement. You must own and currently use a TiVo, and you have to be able to blah, blah, blah.....


----------



## Bananfish

Bananfish said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by bananfish
> Saturday night: The DirecTV installer finished installing my "free upgrade" HR21 (at 11:30 PM - the installation is a whole 'nother story).
> 
> Sunday night: I put in my season passes in (or whatever they're called in the HR21)
> 
> Monday afternoon: The HR21 froze up by 3 PM or so.
> 
> When I tried to watch Daily Show/Colbert around 9 on Monday, I couldn't get the unit to respond to the remote or button presses on the unit itself. I called DirecTV and did a reboot, which got the unit working, but confirmed that those recordings didn't occur. Not a big deal, since I got the next showing at 10, but ....
> 
> this is not an auspicious start to my relationship with the HR21, DirecTV.
> 
> On the other hand, as to the HR10-250 that they swapped out for the HR21 in my family room - I was able to get them to put it in the bedroom. So I still do have some TiVo - just not able to take advantage of the HD on it ... yet. (And who knows, maybe I can get them to swap it out again someday - maybe even for a TiVo!)
> 
> 
> 
> Bananfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Bananfish
> I had another freeze yesterday (Thursday) - so that's 5 days of use, 2 freezes. I discovered the freeze when I went to watch TV at 9:07 PM, so I missed the first 7 minutes of the Office, and didn't get Daily Show/Colbert (at least not from 8-9). I won't tell you how pissed I'd have been if I had missed Lost because of this issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Bananfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Freeze number 3 on Saturday evening. I'm petrified of missing recordings this week - playoff basketball and hockey with my favorite teams, and finally original programming is back in gear after the writers strike.
> 
> I called DirecTV, and they told me "keep calling when it happens and eventually we can offer you a replacement." Great - and how do I know that one's gonna work?
> 
> Three or years with an HR10-250, and it never missed a recording (at least not without help from my stupidity, a network programming change or something else out of its control.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Freeze number 4 yesterday (Wednesday). Among other things, this one cost me the Flyers-Canadiens hockey playoff game. I'm a Flyers fan and my friend is a Canadiens fan. He came over about 2 hours after the game finished, both of us having refrained from learning the score - I try to turn the game on, and get that sinking feeling immediately when nothing happens. Embarrassing and infuriating. Aargggh!

Called D* - they told me to do a reformat/restart (the kind that deletes all your recording, season passes and other preferences). I said "whoa, I've got some recordings I have to watch before I do that" - I'll try to do that tonight. If the restart doesn't work, they say they'll send me a new unit. (I doubt that will help - this unit "works" - it's just that the software freezes - a new unit will have the same software).

EDIT: By the way, the info page on the unit states that it loaded version 0x22b on April 19th, which the D* CSR confirms is the most recent version.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Bananfish said:


> If the restart doesn't work, they say they'll send me a new unit. (I doubt that will help - this unit "works" - it's just that the software freezes - a new unit will have the same software).


You are contradiction yourself. You say the unit doesn't work (freezes), but then say "this unit works". If it were strictly a software issue, don't you think every single unit would be having the exact same problem? But yet they don't.


----------



## Bananfish

Mark Lopez said:


> You are contradiction yourself. You say the unit doesn't work (freezes), but then say "this unit works". If it were strictly a software issue, don't you think every single unit would be having the exact same problem? But yet they don't.


I think you're splitting hairs, but fine, I take it back then - this unit doesn't work. It does, however, appear to operate in the intended way in between freezes/lockups (although I did also get one all gray-screen recording of House - I'm hoping this is the same issue as the freezes.).

A problem in software may exhibit itself only under the conditions that a particular set of inputs to the software creates. The combinations of things that I use is peculiar to my DVR, and that combination could trigger a software failure.

For example, I do a manual record for the Daily Show as a half hour followed by a separate manual record of the Colbert Report as a half hour, for each of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. (I.e., I have 8 separate manual records to get these shows only on Monday through Thursday, each as a half hour file.)

There could be a glitch in the software that only exhibits itself under this particular circumstance - perhaps the software does some calculation of "Manual-Record(2) StartTime - Manual-Record(1) EndTime," that results in a division by zero operation when the end time of one manual record on a channel matches the start time of another manual record on the same channel, thus hanging some software process.

Because only a very small minority of users ever would do two manual records back to back on the same channel, the vast majority of users would never see this issue.

That is just one of countless possibilities of input combinations that I've fed the unit, any one of which could trigger a software bug that the vast majority of users would never see.

As far as hardware goes, I suppose there could be a hard drive storage location issue or memory issue that only occurs once every so often when that storage location or memory location is used. But in my experience, this kind of issue (popping up sporadically and fairly infrequently) is more likely to be software related than hardware related.

But I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## rminsk

shibby191 said:


> I guess I have a different view of a couple posts here and there about a problem vs. a few dozen+ page threads with hundreds of posts in just a couple days in terms of the severity of the problem. But hey, to each his own.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123790

I'll admit the thread is a month old but it has over 100 responses.

http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=127196


----------



## Mark Lopez

Bananfish said:


> A problem in software may exhibit itself only under the conditions that a particular set of inputs to the software creates. The combinations of things that I use is peculiar to my DVR, and that combination could trigger a software failure.


I agree with this 100%.


----------



## Bananfish

The problem is that my set of inputs are not particularly peculiar. 

I've had the unit such a short time that I've done very little with it - I didn't even have any season passes or scheduled recordings when the first freeze happened. And, e.g., I still haven't touched the favorite channel settings. About all I've really done is set the basic settings (e.g., resolution), enter about 20 season passes (including the two manual recordings I mentioned), record about a dozen programs on the fly, and watch TV and recordings.


----------



## shibby191

Bananfish,

There is a bug in the current software release causing various people to get lockups. There is nothing you can do about it and reformating isn't going to help and calling DirecTV will just frustrate you since they can't do anything either. Unfortunately you're going to have to wait with the rest of us for a fix.


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> Bananfish,
> 
> There is a bug in the current software release causing various people to get lockups. There is nothing you can do about it and reformating isn't going to help and calling DirecTV will just frustrate you since they can't do anything either. Unfortunately you're going to have to wait with the rest of us for a fix.


That pretty much sums up the last year and a half, doesn't it?


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> That pretty much sums up the last year and a half, doesn't it?


Yet another baseless statement by someone who neither owns a HR2x, used one or even has DirecTV.


----------



## TSpoonEars

In the three months I have owned the HR21, I have had more lost or partial recordings than 6 years of Tivo ownership, both DirecTivo and standalone, so I wouldn't say RS4's statement is baseless despite the fact he doesn't own one. 

Just yesterday it only recorded 1 minute of Supernatural, despite recording Smallville (the previous show on the same channel) perfectly. :down:


----------



## llarch

TSpoonEars said:


> In the three months I have owned the HR21, I have had more lost or partial recordings than 6 years of Tivo ownership, both DirecTivo and standalone, so I wouldn't say RS4's statement is baseless despite the fact he doesn't own one.
> 
> Just yesterday it only recorded 1 minute of Supernatural, despite recording Smallville (the previous show on the same channel) perfectly. :down:


Ive also had the same experience.


----------



## TyroneShoes

Bananfish said:


> A problem in software may exhibit itself only under the conditions that a particular set of inputs to the software creates. The combinations of things that I use is peculiar to my DVR, and that combination could trigger a software failure.





Mark Lopez said:


> I agree with this 100%.





Mark Lopez said:


> You are contradiction yourself. You say the unit doesn't work (freezes), but then say "this unit works". If it were strictly a software issue, don't you think every single unit would be having the exact same problem? But yet they don't.


Comparing these last two responses in context with Bananfish's statement, I think we can rest the case regarding who might actually be "contradiction [sic] yourself".


----------



## shibby191

By the way, the lockup issue on the HR20/21 was a transmission problem and is fixed in this weekends CE code.


----------



## RS4

Mark Lopez said:


> Yet another baseless statement by someone who neither owns a HR2x, used one or even has DirecTV.


Hey Mark, I know you like to pull my chain, so I pretty much ignore what you write. Anyone who has even occasionally looked at this or the other forums or read some of the consumer review sites, know that I am writing from a factual background.

Just look at all the stability fixes, etc. - what a joke


----------



## TyroneShoes

shibby191 said:


> By the way, the lockup issue on the HR20/21 was a transmission problem and is fixed in this weekends CE code.


That's good to know, and exactly what I suspected (that it was a x-mission issue).

That said, how can a software up rev to a DVR have anything at all to do with fixing a transmission issue? It seemed like a one-time incidental event, meaning that if things returned to normal, there would be no need for a fix.


----------



## Mark Lopez

TyroneShoes said:


> Comparing these last two responses in context with Bananfish's statement, I think we can rest the case regarding who might actually be "contradiction [sic] yourself".


How do you figure?  In my first statement I agreed that it could be a *specific combination* of things on his unit (to include things such as dish, cables etc.).

In the next statement I said that if it was *strictly a software issue*, then everyone would have the exact same problem.

What is contradicting about that?


----------



## Mark Lopez

RS4 said:


> ..... know that I am writing from a factual background.


Thanks, you never cease to amuse me. Facts based on zero personal experience. 

Fact - You never even used a HR20 (by your own admission).
Fact - You don't even have DirecTV (by your own admission)
Fact - You only continue to post here to troll. (otherwise you would have answered my question of why you still feel compelled to bash a product that has nothing to do with you or your current TV provider).


----------



## Mark Lopez

TyroneShoes said:


> That said, how can a software up rev to a DVR have anything at all to do with fixing a transmission issue? It seemed like a one-time incidental event, meaning that if things returned to normal, there would be no need for a fix.


It was my understanding from the chat, that this CE would clear out the guide data that was causing the problem (and indeed people lost their guide data). So, I'm guessing that it would have cleared up on it's own after the 14 days of 'corrupt' guide expired.


----------



## RS4

Mark Lopez said:


> Thanks, you never cease to amuse me. Facts based on zero personal experience.
> 
> Fact - You never even used a HR20 (by your own admission).
> Fact - You don't even have DirecTV (by your own admission)
> Fact - You only continue to post here to troll. (otherwise you would have answered my question of why you still feel compelled to bash a product that has nothing to do with you or your current TV provider).


Hey Mark, if the HR20 is such a good product, why didn't Direct just ship one out to every HR10-250 owner and let them try it at home? After all, the HR10-250 customer is the 'top-tier' customer that they are trying to get and hold on to, by their own reports. Then, if the customer likes the box, they could set up an installation.


----------



## shibby191

Mark Lopez said:


> It was my understanding from the chat, that this CE would clear out the guide data that was causing the problem (and indeed people lost their guide data). So, I'm guessing that it would have cleared up on it's own after the 14 days of 'corrupt' guide expired.


That was my take on the problem as well from the DirecTV technical chat (yes, a very high up DirecTV technical guy chatted for about an hour with people answering all types of questions). So those that haven't loaded the CE the problem should go away as the bad stuff in the guide data expires. Also there is probably some code in the latest CE that should prevent this from happening again should there be a "transmission problem" again.

By the way for those not aware, watching programs from your DVR on your PC is here and being tested on the HR20-700.  MRV is really close around the corner as well, the DVRs can see each other's playlists now. :up:


----------



## magnus

It's only taken them.... way too long to do this.



shibby191 said:


> By the way for those not aware, watching programs from your DVR on your PC is here and being tested on the HR20-700.  MRV is really close around the corner as well, the DVRs can see each other's playlists now. :up:


----------



## Adam1115

Mark Lopez said:


> Fact - You can't even try an HR20. DirecTV will not allow you to return it if you hate it.
> Fact - Unlike Cable, DirecTV requires you to stay with them for TWO YEARS, no matter how many problems you have.
> Fact - You contine to come here to talk about how your fan of TiVo. Dear god! It's a tivo forum! You shouldn't be doing that!


FYP.


----------



## terpfan1980

Adam1115 said:


> FYP.


FACT: you can't try a new stove, or refrigerator in your home overnight.
FACT: you can't try a new microwave overnight.
FACT: you can't try a new TV overnight.

FACT: you can't try a lot of things overnight, but it doesn't mean that those things are bad or that the people that buy them are fools.

Show me where Apple is giving away test drives of Apple TV, or where I can test drive an iPod and not lose some restocking fee or feel incredibly lucky that I was able to try it for more than a few hours in a store.

Show me where I can test drive a new laptop, load it down with games or pr0n or whatever I want and then be able to return it without a restocking fee.

The whole test drive argument is a white elephant that one particular user here has used time and again until a few others have decided 'Hey, that sounds like a great reason to hate DirecTV.' As if any of those folks really needed another reason once DirecTV and TiVo announced their intended split.


----------



## Adam1115

bdowell said:


> FACT: you can't try a new stove, or refrigerator in your home overnight.
> FACT: you can't try a new microwave overnight.
> FACT: you can't try a new TV overnight.
> 
> FACT: you can't try a lot of things overnight, but it doesn't mean that those things are bad or that the people that buy them are fools.


?????

What on earth are you talking about? Any one of those items can be returned to Best Buy within 30 days for a FULL REFUND.

MOST of those items can be returned to Costco at ANY TIME for a full refund. (TV's are 90 days.)

OH, and by the way, you can also return your TiVo for a FULL REFUND within 30 days, even if you activate it.



bdowell said:


> Show me where Apple is giving away test drives of Apple TV, or where I can test drive an iPod and not lose some restocking fee or feel incredibly lucky that I was able to try it for more than a few hours in a store.
> 
> Show me where I can test drive a new laptop, load it down with games or pr0n or whatever I want and then be able to return it without a restocking fee.


I don't know anything about Apple TV, but costco will return your iPod or laptop within 90 days for a FULL REFUND.

http://www.costco.com/Service/FeaturePageLeftNav.aspx?ProductNo=11204333

OH, and by the way, you can also return your TiVo for a FULL REFUND within 30 days, even if you activate it.



bdowell said:


> The whole test drive argument is a white elephant that one particular user here has used time and again until a few others have decided 'Hey, that sounds like a great reason to hate DirecTV.' As if any of those folks really needed another reason once DirecTV and TiVo announced their intended split.


It's not a test drive, it's the ability to return something that doesn't work right. Most companies offer that.

Did I mention you can also return your TiVo for a FULL REFUND within 30 days, even if you activate it?


----------



## terpfan1980

Adam1115 said:


> MOST of those items can be returned to Costco at ANY TIME for a full refund. (TV's are 90 days.)


Costco is an exception to the rule and adds cost to the transaction thanks to membership fees.



Adam1115 said:


> It's not a test drive, *it's the ability to return something that doesn't work right.* Most companies offer that.


That's an important distinction -- You don't give up the right to return a malfunctioning HR20/HR21 box just because you have no trial period. You just don't get to start using it without paying and commiting to a contract period. Much the same as the cell phone companies who require big early termination fees and contract periods so you get freebies.



Adam1115 said:


> Did I mention you can also return your TiVo for a FULL REFUND within 30 days, even if you activate it?


That's great, what is to be done with the ETF's for the cable companies or FiOS provider that you'll need to go with the box?


----------



## Adam1115

bdowell said:


> Costco is an exception to the rule and adds cost to the transaction thanks to membership fees.


Best buy, Circuit City, Wal-mart, all have reasonable return policies.



bdowell said:


> That's an important distinction -- You don't give up the right to return a malfunctioning HR20/HR21 box just because you have no trial period.


Sure you do. If your HR20 never works right, you can't return it and cancel within a reasonable amount of time.

Have you read the OP in this thread?



bdowell said:


> Much the same as the cell phone companies who require big early termination fees and contract periods so you get freebies.


Yes, there are crappy cell phone companies. There are also ones that will return the phone and let you out of the contract with 30 days if you aren't satisfied.

Here's verizon's...

http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/...RETURN_POLICY&jspName=footer/returnPolicy.jsp



> You may terminate service for any reason within 30 days of activation. If you purchased equipment from us at a promotional price at the time of activation, you must return that equipment to avoid being assessed a $175 early termination fee.





bdowell said:


> That's great, what is to be done with the ETF's for the cable companies or FiOS provider that you'll need to go with the box?


Comcast is month to month for me. <Shrug>


----------



## magnus

I think a good distinction would be that none of the products you listed have a service included with them.

Apple lets you test drive their items at the Apple store.

If there was a Directv store.... and people that were knowledgeable about the product that could really show the features/benefits of the product then..... I might agree.



bdowell said:


> FACT: you can't try a new stove, or refrigerator in your home overnight.
> FACT: you can't try a new microwave overnight.
> FACT: you can't try a new TV overnight.
> 
> FACT: you can't try a lot of things overnight, but it doesn't mean that those things are bad or that the people that buy them are fools.
> 
> Show me where Apple is giving away test drives of Apple TV, or where I can test drive an iPod and not lose some restocking fee or feel incredibly lucky that I was able to try it for more than a few hours in a store.
> 
> Show me where I can test drive a new laptop, load it down with games or pr0n or whatever I want and then be able to return it without a restocking fee.
> 
> The whole test drive argument is a white elephant that one particular user here has used time and again until a few others have decided 'Hey, that sounds like a great reason to hate DirecTV.' As if any of those folks really needed another reason once DirecTV and TiVo announced their intended split.


----------



## shibby191

Adam1115 said:


> Comcast is month to month for me. <Shrug>


Most cable and fiber companies now have termination fees when you sign up, especially with a triple play. Not saying all do and if you are already a sub and past your initial "deal" then of course you are month to month.

I was just researching Uverse lately since it's now available to me and they have a termination fee for dropping their service. So does Charter, in fact Charter will jack your prices up like crazy if you don't keep the triple play the whole 12-18 months you committed to.

I guess cable and fiber just don't have confidence in their products.


----------



## cram501

bdowell said:


> The whole test drive argument is a white elephant that one particular user here has used time and again until a few others have decided 'Hey, that sounds like a great reason to hate DirecTV.' As if any of those folks really needed another reason once DirecTV and TiVo announced their intended split.


I cancelled Direct TV since I could not try out their new DVR. I do not hate Direct TV. I had Direct TV service for 12 years.

Direct TV is just another cable provider that could provide me a service. When I first moved here the Adelphia service was substandard and I chose Direct TV (Pegasus here at the time).

I chose to try another service that I can cancel at any time. Competition is a wonderful thing.

I ended up with Comcast which has been fairly reliable although their customer service is poor as most cable providers (Direct TV included). I'll try FIOS when it becomes available in the next month or so.

Both Comcast and FIOS allow you to start month to month service in my area. You don't get as nice of a deal but you can cancel at any point without a termination fee. It may or may not make financial sense but it makes me feel better. 

I did not want to commit to a 2 year agreement without the ability to validate that their DVR worked for me. Direct TV chose to not allow me any other option.

If Comcast and/or FIOS do not provide adequate service, I'll take a look at Direct TV again.


----------



## Adam1115

shibby191 said:


> Most cable and fiber companies now have termination fees when you sign up, especially with a triple play. Not saying all do and if you are already a sub and past your initial "deal" then of course you are month to month.
> 
> I was just researching Uverse lately since it's now available to me and they have a termination fee for dropping their service. So does Charter, in fact Charter will jack your prices up like crazy if you don't keep the triple play the whole 12-18 months you committed to.
> 
> I guess cable and fiber just don't have confidence in their products.


I have no idea if 'most' is accurate.

I have Comcast, certainly they represent a good hunk of people. No termination fees, even with the triple play.

But, so what, even if they had a termination fee for the 'special deals', you are free to pay the regular fee to try it out.

Even Dish network offers a contract free option for an added fee.

No such option exists for DirecTV. Even if you activate some used piece of crap receiver from ebay on a spare TV they re-up your contract. What a joke.


----------



## catcard

I decided not to go with Directv because of the 2 yr commitment - I did not see the point of a contract when you have to go with whatever DVR the installation guy shows up with. With a 24 hr cancellation clause that is just ridiculous to me. As someone mentioned before - most anything we buy usually has a more realistic return policy.

I went with the generic provider for my apartment complex - which happens to resell Dish Network. They installed an HD DVR (VIP622) which I figured out was used since there were many shows recorded on it already. So far I am quite happy with the service and the DVR. I did not have to sign a contract which made it much easier to decide. Since I had a Series 1 Tivo for several years, I am having to get used to the different UI but it is pretty user friendly for me.


----------



## shibby191

Adam1115 said:


> I have no idea if 'most' is accurate.
> 
> I have Comcast, certainly they represent a good hunk of people. No termination fees, even with the triple play.
> 
> But, so what, even if they had a termination fee for the 'special deals', you are free to pay the regular fee to try it out.
> 
> Even Dish network offers a contract free option for an added fee.
> 
> No such option exists for DirecTV. Even if you activate some used piece of crap receiver from ebay on a spare TV they re-up your contract. What a joke.


So what you're saying is that for a higher fee you can get no commitment. Add that up over 2 years and I'll bet it's pretty close to the termination fee for DirecTV which goes down every month you stay.  Of course you could always opt to *buy* the HR21 at a higher price and have no commitment. Then you could sell it on e-Bay should you not like it. Being owned you can sell it if you wish. There are options. :up:

But hey, so long as you're happy with your new provider that's all that matters. I personally have never understood people that get so hung up on commitments. But hey, maybe that's just me.


----------



## Adam1115

shibby191 said:


> So what you're saying is that for a higher fee you can get no commitment. Add that up over 2 years and I'll bet it's pretty close to the termination fee for DirecTV which goes down every month you stay.


Again, MANY new contracts have a cancellation policy. They should allow a 30 day return / cancellation policy.

That aside, I bet many people that are leery of 'trying out' the HR20 for TWO YEARS would pay a little more to stay month to month.



shibby191 said:


> Of course you could always opt to *buy* the HR21 at a higher price and have no commitment. Then you could sell it on e-Bay should you not like it. Being owned you can sell it if you wish. There are options. :up:


Nope. ANY activation, owned or leased, triggers a two year contract. Even a used HR10-250.

And where are HR21's available for an "owned" purchase? DirecTV has always offered them as a lease only.


----------



## magnus

Used equipment is not supposed to trigger a new contract... however you gotta watch them cause they'll still try and stick it to you. I know from past experience.



Adam1115 said:


> Nope. ANY activation, owned or leased, triggers a two year contract. Even a used HR10-250.


----------



## shibby191

Adam1115 said:


> And where are HR21's available for an "owned" purchase? DirecTV has always offered them as a lease only.


You can buy them only directly from DirecTV for $500 I believe is the latest price. I guess good luck finding a CSR who'll sell it to you but the option is there. And you can talk to the access card department to make sure it's listed as owned and doesn't trigger a new commitment. The commitment is because they are giving you free equipment. If you pay full price, no commitment (just like cell phones, pay full price, no or little commitment...take the free phone deal you are signing up for 2 more years).


----------



## Adam1115

shibby191 said:


> The commitment is because they are giving you free equipment. If you pay full price, no commitment (just like cell phones, pay full price, no or little commitment...take the free phone deal you are signing up for 2 more years).


Nope. Already posted above. Verizon allows you to return your phone within 30 days and cancel the contract.

Other carriers do the same.


----------



## shibby191

Adam1115 said:


> Nope. Already posted above. Verizon allows you to return your phone within 30 days and cancel the contract.
> 
> Other carriers do the same.


Only a recent development for Verizon and some other carriers are starting it too. Just a year or 2 ago no dice, you are locked in if you activate that phone, like it or not. Reason for the change? Real tough competition and desperation for subs. It's real dog eat dog in the cell phone industry now and it's real easy to switch carriers now with the portable number law.

As I already pointed out...when (if) DirecTV gets to that point they may change, assuming the economics actually pan out to do it. Do you gain enough new customers to warrant the extra cost of free trials or a free return policy. That is the key and it's really that simple. Math is hard.

It's not that hard of a concept to understand, no idea why people can't seem to get it. Why burn money if you don't have to? They don't have to right now so they don't. 

Doesn't mean I agree with it. Just that I actually understand the business decisions behind it (or can see the other side). But it seems a few people can't make a break from their emotional response that DirecTV is evil or what their personal preference is to see it. Oh well.


----------



## rickmeoff

shibby191 said:


> Doesn't mean I agree with it. Just that I actually understand the business decisions behind it (or can see the other side). But it seems a few people can't make a break from their emotional response that DirecTV is evil or what their personal preference is to see it. Oh well.


for someone who doesnt agree with it, you seem to defend it an awful lot, lol.


----------



## shibby191

rickmeoff said:


> for someone who doesnt agree with it, you seem to defend it an awful lot, lol.


I guess that makes me special. 

Would I like a free trial? Sure, who wouldn't? Would I like other people to get a free trial to test drive stuff? Sure, why not.

However I also understand that the economics isn't there to support it. If it was I'd think the bean counters making 10 times more money then me would have created such a trial program. If the highly paid bean counters are wrong then I guess DirecTV will die and I'll be looking for another company soon to get my programming from. No biggy.

But see, I can separate my personal preference from the reality I live in. I guess some people can't do that.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

shibby191 said:


> Only a recent development for Verizon and some other carriers are starting it too. Just a year or 2 ago no dice, you are locked in if you activate that phone, like it or not. Reason for the change? Real tough competition and desperation for subs. It's real dog eat dog in the cell phone industry now and it's real easy to switch carriers now with the portable number law.


Hate to point out that you're wrong but Verizon has had return rights for at least the last 5 years if not more. It used to be 15 days.


----------



## shibby191

Jebberwocky! said:


> Hate to point out that you're wrong but Verizon has had return rights for at least the last 5 years if not more. It used to be 15 days.


Sorry, if I was incorrect. Around here Verizon was never available until just a year ago. T-Mobile, Sprint and Nextel...activate and you're stuck. Things have changed.

Believe me, it's the way it was. Last time I reupped with Sprint last year and got a new phone. I was pleasantly surprised to find out I had 15 days to cancel if I wanted to. Very new policy.

Also keep in mind that at least in the past policies for cell phone companies were quite regional. So the policy in the Great Lakes could be very different then in California. But much of that has gone away in favor of national policies.


----------



## jimb726

Jebberwocky! said:


> Hate to point out that you're wrong but Verizon has had return rights for at least the last 5 years if not more. It used to be 15 days.


I know for a fact that isnt true. In Ohio I tried to cancel a cell phone 20 days after I got it. It was for my stepson, and he got one from his job. When i went to try to cancel they wanted the full 175 dollars. Heck now even 6 months later they wont even prorate it. So I just pay the 9.99 a month and count down the days till I can either afford the ETF or just flat out can cancel it.


----------



## Jebberwocky!

Jebberwocky! said:


> Hate to point out that you're wrong but Verizon has had return rights for at least the last 5 years if not more. *It used to be 15 days.*





jimb726 said:


> I know for a fact that isnt true. In Ohio I tried to cancel a cell phone* 20 days after I got it*. It was for my stepson, and he got one from his job. When i went to try to cancel they wanted the full 175 dollars. Heck now even 6 months later they wont even prorate it. So I just pay the 9.99 a month and count down the days till I can either afford the ETF or just flat out can cancel it.


LOL


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> Only a recent development for Verizon and some other carriers are starting it too. Just a year or 2 ago no dice, you are locked in if you activate that phone, like it or not. Reason for the change? Real tough competition and desperation for subs. It's real dog eat dog in the cell phone industry now and it's real easy to switch carriers now with the portable number law.
> 
> As I already pointed out...when (if) DirecTV gets to that point they may change, assuming the economics actually pan out to do it. Do you gain enough new customers to warrant the extra cost of free trials or a free return policy. That is the key and it's really that simple. Math is hard.
> 
> It's not that hard of a concept to understand, no idea why people can't seem to get it. Why burn money if you don't have to? They don't have to right now so they don't.
> 
> Doesn't mean I agree with it. Just that I actually understand the business decisions behind it (or can see the other side). But it seems a few people can't make a break from their emotional response that DirecTV is evil or what their personal preference is to see it. Oh well.


I agree with you. Direct is showing that they are an arrogant company - and have become second rate in a lot of peoples eyes. You and the others can keep explaining why they're doing all of this stuff, but in many folks eyes, it's this attitude why many of us left.:down:


----------



## RS4

shibby191 said:


> I guess that makes me special.
> 
> Would I like a free trial? Sure, who wouldn't? Would I like other people to get a free trial to test drive stuff? Sure, why not.
> 
> However I also understand that the economics isn't there to support it. If it was I'd think the bean counters making 10 times more money then me would have created such a trial program. If the highly paid bean counters are wrong then I guess DirecTV will die and I'll be looking for another company soon to get my programming from. No biggy.
> 
> But see, I can separate my personal preference from the reality I live in. I guess some people can't do that.


Your argument on the economics just doesn't make sense for the HR10-250 users. Of course they could have sent the box to those of us who had the Dtivo. I first asked them a year ago. The new sat wasn't even up then, but I could still test out everything. Again - what would that have cost - 50 bucks or less is my guess And yet they don't even have enough common sense to let me try it even when I tell them I am leaving

No, my friend - common sense is no where to be seen in that company


----------



## jimb726

Jebberwocky! said:


> LOL


That would explain it then.


----------



## Adam1115

shibby191 said:


> It's not that hard of a concept to understand, no idea why people can't seem to get it. Why burn money if you don't have to? They don't have to right now so they don't.
> 
> Doesn't mean I agree with it. Just that I actually understand the business decisions behind it (or can see the other side). But it seems a few people can't make a break from their emotional response that DirecTV is evil or what their personal preference is to see it. Oh well.


Maybe you diidn't read the whole discussion. I don't disagree that DirecTV has every right to do it.

I was defending someone who was getting 'slammed' for bashing the HR20 without ever trying it.

The point was, there is no way to 'try it' without locking in for two years with DirecTV, vs. the DirecTV fanboys who *COULD* try the TiVo HD for 30 days and return it.


----------



## shibby191

RS4 said:


> Your argument on the economics just doesn't make sense for the HR10-250 users. Of course they could have sent the box to those of us who had the Dtivo. I first asked them a year ago. The new sat wasn't even up then, but I could still test out everything. Again - what would that have cost - 50 bucks or less is my guess And yet they don't even have enough common sense to let me try it even when I tell them I am leaving
> 
> No, my friend - common sense is no where to be seen in that company


And why would they care that you left? The 1st quarter financial results speak for themselves. They added more new subs in the 1st quarter then there were *total* HR10 owners at it's peak. Hmmmmm....


----------



## Adam1115

shibby191 said:


> And why would they care that you left? The 1st quarter financial results speak for themselves. They added more new subs in the 1st quarter then there were *total* HR10 owners at it's peak. Hmmmmm....


It's generally a good idea to add new customers without crapping on your current customers. Sure they added a lot of new customers. How many more would it be if they didn't upset current customers...?

But sure, if you grow enough, you can have crappy customer service. It's just a departure from the previous DirecTV ownerships attitude....

DirecTV is ahead of the game ATM. At some point there will be more competition and they may wish that they didn't piss off the people who hung in there when they didn't have HD-lil... hung in there when Dish was beating them on HD.....


----------



## Flogduh

Wow, talk about a hijacked thread!


----------



## Citivas

bdowell said:


> That's an important distinction -- You don't give up the right to return a malfunctioning HR20/HR21 box just because you have no trial period. You just don't get to start using it without paying and commiting to a contract period. Much the same as the cell phone companies who require big early termination fees and contract periods so you get freebies.


Not true. I agree with the other poster -- DirecTV is exceptionally unethical about returns or cancellations even when the product doesn't work from day-one. I got an HR20 in the Fall of 2006 and it was totally useless from the moment it was out of the box and for the next 5 months or so until the bizillionth firmware upgrade finally made it reasonably reliable. Prior to that it would freeze up daily and only successfully record about 60 percent of my to-do list, seemingly randomly, making it 0 percent reliable.

I called within hours of getting it to start the process with customer service. After various escalations I was eventually told all my issues were "known software problems" and they refused to replace the box or allow me to return it. It didn't even remotely do what it was advertised as doing yet DirecTV would not allow an 11-year customer to return it or to not be under a 2-year contract entered into expressly for the defective product. Not to mention the installer totally trashed my house and caused hundreds of dollars in damage to my floors and drywall (for which they offered a $50 credit for programming, big deal...).

So I had to pay for service for the next 5 months for a defective product I tried to return or get replaced immediately until they got around to a reasonably stable (still intermittantly) version of their firmware. Even then, the remote is still basically defective (it loves to skip keystrokes then build them up and do them all at once, etc.) and the thing often is as loud as a hair dryer, both of which were reported to customer service and told to be within the expected operating parameters of the product...

The only reason I didn't get insanely upset is I kept my 10-250 which saw us through it all in perfect form...

I have thus far declined every DirecTV offer to get additional free boxes and services to replace the remaining 10-250 in exchange for a new contract. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me...


----------



## Citivas

shibby191 said:


> So what you're saying is that for a higher fee you can get no commitment. Add that up over 2 years and I'll bet it's pretty close to the termination fee for DirecTV which goes down every month you stay.  Of course you could always opt to *buy* the HR21 at a higher price and have no commitment. Then you could sell it on e-Bay should you not like it. Being owned you can sell it if you wish. There are options. :up:
> 
> But hey, so long as you're happy with your new provider that's all that matters. I personally have never understood people that get so hung up on commitments. But hey, maybe that's just me.


What "higher fee"? Comcast offers a double play in my area for high speed internet plus digital cable, with no commitment, that is $1/month more than I am already paying for just high speed internet from them (and they are my only option for high speed). By comparison, with DirecTV's constant price increases lately (I remember the good ol' days when they didn't raise prices for YEARS), I am paying MORE for the same range of channels I'd get in that Comcast package, not including D*'s cost for premium channels. Granted I wouldn't get as many HD channels on Comcast, but I would still get HD for 95% of the shows in my 51 season passes (that are available in HD).

So, to summarize, DirecTV costs as much just for TV as TV and Internet combined from Comcast in my area. And Comcast has no commitment. And they now offer a TiVo version of their DVR (granted with a stupidly smaller HD installed).


----------



## Mark Lopez

Citivas said:


> .... and only successfully record about 60 percent of my to-do list, .... making it 0 percent reliable.


So now 60%=0%.  I hope you don't use math in your job.


----------



## Citivas

Mark Lopez said:


> So now 60%=0%.  I hope you don't use math in your job.


What I wrote was 60% makes it 0% "RELIABLE." If at any given time there is only a 60% chance that your show will record, even if you repeatedly re-checked that it was on the to-do list and checked even as it was allegedly recording, do you really feel 60% good about that? If your car only started 60% of the time would you consider it "mostly" reliable? No, if you were most people you would either need it fixed or you would be looking for a car that you could count on to go from A to B when you needed it. A DVR is essentially useless if it is going to randomly botch recordings 40% of the time.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Citivas said:


> If your car only started 60% of the time would you consider it "mostly" reliable?


No, I would call it 60% reliable, not 0% reliable which means it never starts.

And technically 60% is > 50% so it would be 'mostly' reliable. You really aren't very good at this math stuff are you. 



Citivas said:


> A DVR is essentially useless if it is going to randomly botch recordings 40% of the time.


Ok, so I take it that you just delete any recordings that it does do correctly since it is essentially useless. Got it.


----------



## Citivas

Seriously, what are you smoking, Mark? Are you really going to try and make that case with a straight face?

No, what I did when I had a DVR that didn't record successfully 40&#37; of the time is not use it 100% of the time. I used a DVR (10-250) that actually did what it advertised so I could watch all my shows and I let the DirecTV one collect dust until it was actually stable. I kept the season passes mostly just to keep checking in to keep an eye for when it started being reliable.

I can't tell if you are joking, are just a DirecTV apologist or actually believe that having a DVR that fails 40% of the time is still 60% satisfactory. But we'll just have to agree to disagree. I leave it to others to decide for themselves if they think a 40% failure rate is still "reliable." I would suggest looking up the definition of the word.


----------



## rickmeoff

Citivas said:


> I can't tell if you are joking, are just a DirecTV apologist or actually believe that having a DVR that fails 40% of the time is still 60% satisfactory. But we'll just have to agree to disagree. I leave it to others to decide for themselves if they think a 40% failure rate is still "reliable." I would suggest looking up the definition of the word.


until you realize the mark lives under a bridge waiting for unsuspecting billy goats to try and cross, youll not understand his responses.

hes not joking, but he is a typical troll who 99% of the time tries to antagonize folks into reponding to his posts of which are usually 0% accurate 20% of the time.


----------



## Mark Lopez

Citivas said:


> I leave it to others to decide for themselves if they think a 40% failure rate is still "reliable." I would suggest looking up the definition of the word.


Now you are changing your own statment. You clearly said that a 40% failure rate equates to a *0%* reliability. I suggest you get a math book. The first grade version should be adequate. You know, where the teach you that 0<60 and 0 does not = 60. 



rickmeoff said:


> hes not joking, but he is a typical troll who 99% of the time tries to antagonize folks into reponding to his posts of which are usually 0% accurate 20% of the time.


 Talk about the pot (the real troll) calling the kettle black.

Any time you want to have a serious debate without resorting to lies (again) to try and discredit me, feel free to post something a little more intelligent. But we all know that between you and RS4, that is not likely.


----------



## Adam1115

Mark Lopez said:


> Now you are changing your own statment. You clearly said that a 40% failure rate equates to a *0%* reliability. I suggest you get a math book. The first grade version should be adequate. You know, where the teach you that 0<60 and 0 does not = 60.


If I ever buy a DVR that fails 40% of the time, it would equate to 0% reliability, because I'd unplug it, box it up, and send it back.


----------



## 20TIL6

Adam1115 said:


> If I ever buy a DVR that fails 40% of the time, it would equate to 0% reliability, because I'd unplug it, box it up, and send it back.


:up::up::up:

I can just see the DirecTV marketing campaigns now.

The DirecTV HR21 DVR.... because 60>0.

The DirecTV HR21 DVR.... well, 4 out of every 10 shows is probably not worth watching anyway.

The DirecTV HR21 DVR.... because anything more reliable just might take over the world.

The DirecTV HR21 DVR.... dependable is boring.

The DirecTV HR21 DVR.... surprises 40% of the time; included at no extra charge.


----------



## MagnumJoe

Adam1115 said:


> If I ever buy a DVR that fails 40% of the time, it would equate to 0% reliability, because I'd unplug it, box it up, and send it back.


Not sure if the recent posts are to debate Tivo vs DirecTV or how well Citivas is at math. I can say this the posts have been "halarious" LMAO.

For the record I left DirecTV because of Tivo's funcitionallity and I've been a DirecTV customer for several years.

Mark, I have to agree with Citivas and Adam1115, and the other posters if we buy a product we expect it to work, not just some of the time but ALL of the time. I think you would agree despite your post thus far. Maybe you are ok, with a device working some of the time. Oh, and I know it might be difficult with someone with over 7,200 post to undersand, but could you try to be a little more considerate to newbies?


----------



## jimb726

MagnumJoe said:


> Not sure if the recent posts are to debate Tivo vs DirecTV or how well Citivas is at math. I can say this the posts have been "halarious" LMAO.
> 
> For the record I left DirecTV because of Tivo's funcitionallity and I've been a DirecTV customer for several years.
> 
> Mark, I have to agree with Citivas and Adam1115, and the other posters if we buy a product we expect it to work, not just some of the time but ALL of the time. I think you would agree despite your post thus far. Maybe you are ok, with a device working some of the time. Oh, and I know it might be difficult with someone with over 7,200 post to undersand, but could you try to be a little more considerate to newbies?


The biggest problem is the inconsistancy among the units. For every person you see on here that has had multiple problems there is someone who has not had any and neither side can believe that the other might be telling the truth. Personally I have had an HR20-700 since Dec of 06 and it has not had an issue that I know of. I cant think of a missed recording (thats not to say it didnt happen, but it has never missed one of my favorites), and although I have had to reboot it maybe 4 times in the 18 months, I dont consider that an issue. And I have had a HR20-100 that has worked fine for the last 3 months. I did have a 700 replaced but I am not so sure my wife wasnt the issue, since I could never duplicate her problem. Any ways, in the end it comes down to your personal experience and the environment you are in.


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## Citivas

jimb726 said:


> The biggest problem is the inconsistancy among the units. For every person you see on here that has had multiple problems there is someone who has not had any and neither side can believe that the other might be telling the truth. Personally I have had an HR20-700 since Dec of 06 and it has not had an issue that I know of. I cant think of a missed recording (thats not to say it didnt happen, but it has never missed one of my favorites), and although I have had to reboot it maybe 4 times in the 18 months, I dont consider that an issue. And I have had a HR20-100 that has worked fine for the last 3 months. I did have a 700 replaced but I am not so sure my wife wasnt the issue, since I could never duplicate her problem. Any ways, in the end it comes down to your personal experience and the environment you are in.


I think the biggest issue is DirecTV not supporting the units. My problem with the "some of them work great, some of them don't" issue was that whenever I called DirecTV they said there was nothing I could do but wait for the software fix. Yet if they knew that only a subset of the boxes were affected, why not replace my unit instead of saying it was a software issue I needed to wait 5 month to be fixed?


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## jimb726

Citivas said:


> I think the biggest issue is DirecTV not supporting the units. My problem with the "some of them work great, some of them don't" issue was that whenever I called DirecTV they said there was nothing I could do but wait for the software fix. Yet if they knew that only a subset of the boxes were affected, why not replace my unit instead of saying it was a software issue I needed to wait 5 month to be fixed?


Yes but you cant fix what you cannot duplicate. If the unit flakes at your house but then not back there or vice versa. It is very difficult to diag. thats all i was saying.


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## justapixel

Flogduh said:


> Wow, talk about a hijacked thread!


Back on topic:

My new, not refurbed HD unit seems to work, for the most part. It missed the series finale of Dexter without any explanation. It has a stutter now and then but nothing like the last few units. This time it seems to take the form of the fast-forward freezing up - one one or two shows we weren't able to use it for a break or two.

Other than that, it's tolerable. I don't love it. There is a mismatch between hitting the rewind and the sound which I understand is normal for these units. There is stuff I don't much care for, and I still and forever will hate the spoiler box on the upper right hand corner, but at least I can watch an entire show without it turning green on me.

I'm still mirroring everything on the D*TiVo for fear of it not getting something I love (Never did put the Dexter on the old one ) but I'm a bit more confident in this one.

I have to say, customer service has been horrendous. When we got our last bill, they charged us for the service call and extra units, and it took an hour and escalation to the manager to resolve it. Our bill has been wrong since December.


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## MagnumJoe

justapixel said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> My new, not refurbed HD unit seems to work, for the most part. It missed the series finale of Dexter without any explanation. It has a stutter now and then but nothing like the last few units. This time it seems to take the form of the fast-forward freezing up - one one or two shows we weren't able to use it for a break or two.
> 
> Other than that, it's tolerable. I don't love it. There is a mismatch between hitting the rewind and the sound which I understand is normal for these units. There is stuff I don't much care for, and I still and forever will hate the spoiler box on the upper right hand corner, but at least I can watch an entire show without it turning green on me.
> 
> I'm still mirroring everything on the D*TiVo for fear of it not getting something I love (Never did put the Dexter on the old one ) but I'm a bit more confident in this one.
> 
> I have to say, customer service has been horrendous. When we got our last bill, they charged us for the service call and extra units, and it took an hour and escalation to the manager to resolve it. Our bill has been wrong since December.


You may already know this, but when you call DTV, during the automated message on why you are calling, say "Cancel", this put you through to customer retention and they are better prepared (at least in my cases) in solving your problems.

I left DTV, because I was having issues with my H20 an refuse to commit for 2 years. Of course part of the reason, was there was this other "device called a Tivo", that I feel head over hills for.


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## Citivas

jimb726 said:


> Yes but you cant fix what you cannot duplicate. If the unit flakes at your house but then not back there or vice versa. It is very difficult to diag. thats all i was saying.


This could be easily repeated. It failed almost every day on one or more recordings and crashes. Plus they didn't even try to diagnose it. As soon as I explained the problems the response was: "These are known issues and we expect them to be fixed in a future software release." It took MANY software releases later to be true. That seems like the opposite of them not being able to duplicate a problem. They were acknowledging the problem but basically saying (implied, not their words) that I was a forced beta tester and SOL.


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## magnus

You know, it really seems like it's time to move on. 



justapixel said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> My new, not refurbed HD unit seems to work, for the most part. It missed the series finale of Dexter without any explanation. It has a stutter now and then but nothing like the last few units. This time it seems to take the form of the fast-forward freezing up - one one or two shows we weren't able to use it for a break or two.
> 
> Other than that, it's tolerable. I don't love it. There is a mismatch between hitting the rewind and the sound which I understand is normal for these units. There is stuff I don't much care for, and I still and forever will hate the spoiler box on the upper right hand corner, but at least I can watch an entire show without it turning green on me.
> 
> I'm still mirroring everything on the D*TiVo for fear of it not getting something I love (Never did put the Dexter on the old one ) but I'm a bit more confident in this one.
> 
> I have to say, customer service has been horrendous. When we got our last bill, they charged us for the service call and extra units, and it took an hour and escalation to the manager to resolve it. Our bill has been wrong since December.


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## justapixel

MagnumJoe said:


> You may already know this, but when you call DTV, during the automated message on why you are calling, say "Cancel", this put you through to customer retention and they are better prepared (at least in my cases) in solving your problems.


Yes, I did that three times. The last time they threatened me with the 2 year fee, and he was quite nasty about it. I told him to look at my record of complaints and calls, and they could send me any bill they wanted but they would have to take me to small claims to get that money as I would not be paying it voluntarily.

He was wonderfully helpful. :down:

He then sent me off to engineering who told me they don't have any new boxes, only refurbs so they wouldn't send me one.

It was my local satellite company who helped me out and got me the non-refurb.

Their CS has been horrible from start to end.

When it's time to re-up, I'll be looking at other options for sure.


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## magnus

They can't really get the money. They did take it from my credit card when I canceled service but I disputed the charge with my CC and they removed the charge. Eventually D* decided that they were wrong and sent me a letter apologizing but it was too late. They had already taken money from my CC without authorization. I personally view that as stealing but others that defend D* are quick to point to the one sided agreement D* has with it's customers.

I personally would not deal with their commitment crap but everyone has their limits. So, maybe they will push yours and maybe they won't.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=357510


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## Paul_PDX

My HR21 is currently very unreliable -- the last two upgrades fixed one issue for me (DolbyDigital problems) and created three new ones --1) long pauses in the ui (up to two minutes) that can happen any time, 2) Occassional blank recordings, and most annoying 3) ten days of now playing shows that were in my playlist disappeared after a restart (with history changed to look like they never were there).

At least I have my HR10 and Sat-T60 Tivos as backups along with my Vista Media Center or I would have lost most of the season finales for series I haven't started to watch yet and for my favorite shows.


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## Mark Lopez

Citivas said:


> I think the biggest issue is DirecTV not supporting the units. My problem with the "some of them work great, some of them don't" issue was that *whenever I called DirecTV they said there was nothing I could do but wait* for the software fix.


This is really no different than the 'support' people got when they called about a Tivo problem.

All you have to do is call them and tell them it won't even turn on and they will send you a replacement. Seems pretty simple IMO. <shrug>

BTW, all three of my HR20s are still working flawlessly. Go figure.


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## Adam1115

Mark Lopez said:


> To get DirecTV to stand behind their products, aAll you have to do is call and lie to them and they will send you a replacement. Seems pretty simple IMO. <shrug>=


FYP


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## Joey303

Hey, Ann. I feel your pain. I still don't know what I'm going to do for an HD dvr, but I know it won't be the one you're stuck with.

In my opinion, DirecTV has not lived-up to its end of the bargain when it comes to your case and has no right to charge you an early termination fee. In fact, I would bet there are loads of other people who've been similarly bullied by Retention. If I were you, I'd terminate and make clear that any attempt to charge me would be met with resistance, charge-backs, and finally, a suit.

Here's an idea: the next time your machine misses a recording, use that down-time to file formal complaints with the State of California and the feds.

Federal Trade Commission:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/consumer.shtm

California Department of Consumer Affairs: https://app.dca.ca.gov/cru/gencomplaint.asp

California Attorney General's Office/Complaints:
http://ag.ca.gov/contact/complaint_form.php?cmplt=CL

Better Business Bureau of Northeastern California:
http://necal.bbb.org/WWWRoot/SitePage.aspx?site=67&id=64fbf996-624a-4010-92bd-85ab432224c4

Small Claims Court:
If they ever charge you an early termination fee under these circumstances, it's time to bring them to Sacramento Small Claims Court. You can file your suit online: http://www.apps-saccourt.com/scc/


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## TyroneShoes

Adam1115 said:


> FYP


Adam, that's cold.

I also think altering a quote might be _just _a bit out of line. But pretty harmless in this case, I guess.

(Besides, he mostly only lies to himself )


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## newsposter

TyroneShoes said:


> I also think altering a quote might be _just _a bit out of line. )


you dont visit HH do you? Thats all they do in there. I think the owner of this board should put FYP on the naughty word list and lock quotes but i was told you cant because they you couldnt trim them either. I think it's insulting to change a *single* word of anyones post. Just write below it! how freaking lazy are some people that they cant write below it what they dont like. Then you get the cute little fyp wars that go on...

ill stop now..just bugs they heck out of me how arrogant it is to change a quote like that.


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## dswallow

Adam1115 said:


> If I ever buy a DVR that fails 40% of the time, it would equate to 0% reliability, because I'd unplug it, box it up, and send it back.


That's a feature. It's called "Reverse Suggestions". The DVR periodically suggests you don't watch something. Well, maybe "suggests" is a bit too timid a word.


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## Scooter

If it doesn't work 40&#37; of the time, you are either smoking something, or you exaggerate worse than my wife. 

Scooter


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## jimb726

Ok I'll bite, what does the abbreviation "FYP" mean?


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## 20TIL6

jimb726 said:


> Ok I'll bite, what does the abbreviation "FYP" mean?


fixed your post

I think.


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## rickmeoff

20TIL6 said:


> fixed your post
> 
> I think.


When I first started seeing it, I thought it meant "f*ck you pal." I was relieved to finally figure out what it really meant, lol.


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## newsposter

rickmeoff said:


> When I first started seeing it, I thought it meant "f*ck you pal." I was relieved to finally figure out what it really meant, lol.


it's an arrogant thing for anyone to do anyway..if you dont like what someone says fine....quote them then write below what you disagree with...but someday, someone is gonna mess with someone's quote and be misconstrued and it will not be pretty. I just really think what you write should be yours and only yours..not crap someone else introduces to your post. :down:


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## terpfan1980

newsposter said:


> it's an arrogant thing for anyone to do anyway..if you dont like what someone says fine....quote them then write below what you disagree with...but someday, someone is gonna mess with someone's quote and be misconstrued and it will not be pretty. I just really think what you write should be yours and only yours..not crap someone else introduces to your post. :down:


So that's why you clip so many bad headlines from so many different sources?


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## TyroneShoes

newsposter said:


> you dont visit HH do you? Thats all they do in there. I think the owner of this board should put FYP on the naughty word list and lock quotes but i was told you cant because they you couldnt trim them either. I think it's insulting to change a *single* word of anyones post. Just write below it! how freaking lazy are some people that they cant write below it what they dont like. Then you get the cute little fyp wars that go on...
> 
> ill stop now..just bugs they heck out of me how arrogant it is to change a quote like that.


Let's put it this way--I have no earthly idea what "HH" might even stand for, unless its the monogram on Huckleberry Hound's tie.

I was half kidding Adam, as I could easily see that it was done in jest and not that he was really trying to misrepresent anyone. But then I agree that changing a quote should be considered over the line. I even think editing it out of context or changing the font size or boldness is wrong. If you have a bone to pick, then quote that line in context by itself.

But I think we need to have the freedom of controlling this ourselves without needing mods to take us by the hand and forcing us to be good little nazis. I also don't believe in naughty word lists.

If you give folks too many barriers they will lazily crash up against them time and again. If you leave it open, they either end up having to take responsibility and learn how to get along using the proper words, or end up making pariahs of themselves. IOW, that sort of thing is really self-policing.

And while I greatly respect mods and their functions, parents are the ones that should take responsibility for where their children go on the internet and what they might be exposed to, not mods rulings. I don't think we're creating any Jeffrey Daumers by exposing kids to mere words, after all. Especially the same words any 3rd-grader can hear on the playground from his peers.


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## Adam1115

newsposter said:


> Wassup wassup wassup in the hizzy?!


FYP.


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