# How many people would defect to DISH Network if they came up with a DishTiVo DVR?



## af250xxl (Jan 24, 2006)

How many people would defect to DISH Network 
if they came up with a DishTiVo DVR? Since DirecTV
and Tivo no longer make DVRs together, doesn't
that free up Tivo to work out a deal with DISH?

I know this is highly unlikely to happen... but who knows? ?)
Just look at how many people are thinking about jumping
to Comcast because of the possibility of Tivo?


Just my $.02


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

af250xxl said:


> How many people would defect to DISH Network
> if they came up with a DishTiVo DVR? Since DirecTV
> and Tivo no longer make DVRs together, doesn't
> that free up Tivo to work out a deal with DISH?
> ...


But the biggest problem with a TiVo DVR for Dish, is that TiVo has been suing Dish for the last few years, and I highly doubt that Dish would like to do business with TiVo.


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## af250xxl (Jan 24, 2006)

tbeckner said:


> But the biggest problem with a TiVo DVR for Dish, is that TiVo has been suing Dish for the last few years, and I highly doubt that Dish would like to do business with TiVo.


Oh yeah... I almost forgot about that... whatever happened to the lawsuits?

Of course, strangers things have happened in the business world... If Nixon
could go to China...  I don't see why DISH and TiVo can't reconcile their problems
and work together.(if it benefits both of them financially)


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## JohnTivo (Dec 2, 2002)

I believe it starts in the next couple of weeks.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

I suppose conceptually a DishTiVo might not be out of the question once the lawsuits are over depending on who wins.


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## markf57 (May 9, 2002)

Between 7 and 42.


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## TeeSee (Jan 16, 2003)

I'd jump to Dish in a heartbeat if they had Tivo. The main reason I left them was because they didn't have it and DirecTV did. There are a lot of things that DirecTV had that they no longer do. The choice isn't obvious anymore as to which satellite provider is the best. Tivo would easily give the advantage to one over the other.


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## Martin Tupper (Dec 18, 2003)

As long as my DirecTiVos continue to work, I would feel no _need _to make the switch. However, it would make me seriously entertain an attractive offer to switch.


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## Rkkeller (May 13, 2004)

I choose providers based on what channels and services they offer not by anything else.


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## SteelersTiVo (Aug 18, 2005)

Since I already have my D*TiVos there would be no reason for me to switch esp with the NFLST still in DTVs hands which is why I left cable in the 1st place...

I have always viewed DN as the lower end satellite company anyway...


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## ping (Oct 3, 2005)

In a heartbeat. Even faster if they didn't cripple them like DirecTV did.


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## Larus (Nov 15, 2001)

A high definition DishTiVo with dual tuners and 6.2 would be VERY attractive. (Since that is what we all want here at DirecTV). It would be a huge benefit to both the satellite company (Best DVR and TiVo in the world) and to TiVo (a source of many more new TiVo subscribers than the stand-alone units provide-if the experience with DirecTV is any lesson). A satellite based TiVo, a la DirecTiVo, is a natural, as it has the major advantage of creating no loss, already compressed digital recordings directly off the satellite, without the need for compression hardware in the DVR unit and making the most efficient use of hard drive space.

Too bad it will never happen.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

Rkkeller said:


> I choose providers based on what channels and services they offer not by anything else.


That doesn't really answer the question since TiVo is a service.

ETA: I would consider switching down the road if they had an HD TiVo and HD locals available to me.


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## BlankMan (Mar 30, 2002)

bigpuma said:


> That doesn't really answer the question since TiVo is a service.


 D*mn good point.

I'd consider it, but I'm leaning towards TWC once there is a HD TiVo for it, I'll get to listen to MC again then.


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## rlj5242 (Dec 20, 2000)

Remember that Microsoft worked with both D* and E* on a PVR. The UltimateTV was a successful and mostly stable receiver. The Dishplayer was a buggy POS that caused a class action lawsuit.

-Robert


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## jcricket (Sep 11, 2002)

If Dish offered a satellite receiver with "Series III" like Tivo features *now* I'd leave DirecTV in a heartbeat *if* Dish also had my locals in HD OTA and their "HDTivo" box could receive any new HD channels coming down the road from them.

Right now I have a HR10-250 and a R10. Both work fine. If the HR10 had 6.2, I'd be even happier. Features like MRV and HMO are nice, but not critical in my decision-making process. The big issue is that the HR10 will never get satellite HD locals (I can't get *all* of my HD locals OTA) and new MPG4 HD channels.

So, in a couple of years, I'll re-evaluate the state of HD DVRs and probably make my decision on which provider to go to based on that. Right now, Tivo's still the best. The Series III might be attractive, but not at $1000. Perhaps the NDS DVRs will be cheap and good by then. Perhaps the Moto w/Tivo box will be good enough.

Who knows.


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## JFriday (Mar 20, 2002)

Nope DTV has Season Ticket, plus I get east coast feeds right now, I don't know if they are available on Dish.


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## rpdre1 (Feb 20, 2005)

I'd also switch if Dish had Tivo.


Another plus would be having Sirius instead of XM.


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

With respect, this is one of the dumbest questions ever asked!

It's like saying "would you buy a Kia if they put a Honda engine in it?" The Honda engine makes it more appealing, but it's still a Kia. It's more than just TiVo that attracted most people to D*, so you have to look at the whole package... What channels would I get compared to what I have now? What would it cost? Is there any guarantee of reliability? Can I upgrade or hack? plus hundreds of other factors. 

E* are NOT planning a partnership with TiVo any more than Chevrolet is partnering with Ferrari! So this question has no bearing whatsoever.

As for people deserting the ship for ComCrap, some may and others will not, assuming the deal actually becomes any more than vaporware. Remember that most of the population can't even GET ComCrap!


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## beanpoppa (Jan 7, 2004)

Right now I own all 5 of my DTivos. It costs me a total of $6/mo to have them. ($26 if you count the mirroring fees). I have them all hacked to enable Tivo features that I want (HMO, MRV). I want for nothing. However, when they start dying or if DirecTV shuts them down, AND Dish not only offers Tivo DVR's, but enables HMO/MRV features, then I would jump to Dish in a heartbeat. But until that happens, I have no reason to layout the cash to buy 5 new Tivos.


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## rigs49 (Mar 30, 2005)

Guindalf said:


> With respect, this is one of the dumbest questions ever asked!
> 
> It's like saying "would you buy a Kia if they put a Honda engine in it?"
> 
> Don't you mean it's like asking?


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## Mark W (Dec 6, 2001)

It's not a dumb question, it's an interesting question, and if Dish got an HDTivo and SDTivos with the same monthly pricing structure, but a bearable up front cost I would look into it.

Sure, it's not going to happen, especially the bearable up front cost part, but it's an interesting question.


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## The Flush (Aug 3, 2005)

beanpoppa said:


> Right now I own all 5 of my DTivos. It costs me a total of $6/mo to have them. ($26 if you count the mirroring fees). I have them all hacked to enable Tivo features that I want (HMO, MRV). I want for nothing. However, when they start dying or if DirecTV shuts them down, AND Dish not only offers Tivo DVR's, but enables HMO/MRV features, then I would jump to Dish in a heartbeat. But until that happens, I have no reason to layout the cash to buy 5 new Tivos.


This is how I feel, except I don't have 5 DTivos (yet).

FiOS has a better chance of getting my money than DISH, but it'll be years before that is an option.


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## sven_kirk (Sep 11, 2005)

Dish would have to totally rework their fees. I'll happily pay my 6 bucks a month to DTV for all of my 3 SDTivos. Tivo or not.

Straight from Dish website...
DISH Network DVR Service Fee: A $5.98 per month DISH Network DVR service fee will be charged to your account for *each *model 510, 522, 625, or ViP622 DVR receiver activated.


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

rlj5242 said:


> The Dishplayer was a buggy POS that caused a class action lawsuit.


The only people that made out on that deal was the lawyers. The subscribers that had those wonder boxes got a few discount coupons for HBO or somesuch... they sent me mine after I had left for DirecTV/DTivos, so they were of no value to me.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

Nope, I would stick with D*


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## goony (Nov 20, 2003)

> Right now I own all 5 of my DTivos. It costs me a total of $6/mo to have them. ($26 if you count the mirroring fees).


I look at it as just $6 additonal, becuase that is all the additional cost you pay compared to having 5 non-dvr receivers.

I'd consider going back to Dish if they offered Tivo-based DVRs *and my DVR fees would not go up*, but I'd have to have a pretty good reason to leave DirecTV - and I don't have any reason to do so at the moment (especially with a DVR fee that covers all DVRs on the account!  ) And, I'd wait one year after the rollout of any DishDVR to give it a chance to become stable.

I'd go back to Dish before I'd go back to cable.


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## reh523 (Feb 28, 2006)

Two words "NFL Ticket".......... 

I go by content.


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Guindalf said:


> As for people deserting the ship for ComCrap, some may and others will not, assuming the deal actually becomes any more than vaporware. Remember that most of the population can't even GET ComCrap!


Remember; there are multiple ways people will be able to get TiVos with Comcast (And one of them is applicable to other providers as well). The Motorola box running a TiVo OS (The Deal you mentioned) and the Series 3 (The Series 3 is not a Comcast box and can use a CableCard to allow it to work with multiple providers). If you think the Series 3 is vaporware (which it isn't) then you must not think TiVo will be around in a couple years (which it will).


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## Guindalf (Jun 13, 2001)

SullyND said:


> Remember; there are multiple ways people will be able to get TiVos with Comcast (And one of them is applicable to other providers as well). The Motorola box running a TiVo OS (The Deal you mentioned) and the Series 3 (The Series 3 is not a Comcast box and can use a CableCard to allow it to work with multiple providers). If you think the Series 3 is vaporware (which it isn't) then you must not think TiVo will be around in a couple years (which it will).


I don't believe I said anything about the Series 3 being vaporware. However, the best TiVo or any other kind of DVR on a crap cable network is still going to be crap! Therefore, Series 3 or not, there is still going to be a large percentage of people, myself included, that have little or no choice - too far from a major city to get OTA and a hick cable operator that thinks HD stands for Heavy Duty!

Cablecard will NOT work with E* or D*. Those who are lucky enough to be able to get a decent service from a decent cableco will go S3 or use the cableco's own DVR. The rest of the population is stuck in the brown, mucky stuff.

The rest of this thread is all "if's, but's and maybe's".


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## 94SupraTT (Feb 17, 2005)

af250xxl said:


> How many people would defect to DISH Network
> if they came up with a DishTiVo DVR? Since DirecTV
> and Tivo no longer make DVRs together, doesn't
> that free up Tivo to work out a deal with DISH?
> ...


I would consider it. Tivo and NFLST are the main reason I am with D*. I am a huge Bears fan and I live in VA so NFLST is the only way for me to get my Bears games.


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## bengalfreak (Oct 20, 2002)

Guindalf said:


> With respect, this is one of the dumbest questions ever asked!
> 
> It's like saying "would you buy a Kia if they put a Honda engine in it?" The Honda engine makes it more appealing, but it's still a Kia. It's more than just TiVo that attracted most people to D*, so you have to look at the whole package... What channels would I get compared to what I have now? What would it cost? Is there any guarantee of reliability? Can I upgrade or hack? plus hundreds of other factors.
> 
> ...


Here's one guy that doesn't fit your bill. I switched from Dish to DTV because of one reason, DTV had Tivo. I liked Dish's offerings every bit as much as DTV's and I really liked the fact that they were a tad bit cheaper. I'd return to Echostar in a heartbeat if they introduced Tivo DVR's.


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## mgmrick (Aug 28, 2002)

One word yesnetwork.

Dish is not into sports


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## Jolly1 (Aug 19, 2004)

I go where NFL Sunday Ticket goes.

Anytime, anyone tries to sell to me with "Switch to Dish", or "get everything on cable", etc., the first thing I ask is "Got NFL Sunday Ticket?". Of course, the answer is always "No. But...", and my reply is always "Thanks for calling.. click".


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## Billy Bob Boy (Jul 25, 2004)

If and when it would happen and D* NO LONGER SUPPORTS TIVO I would move! But that wont be for a long time. Dish network and I are not on speaking terms. They messed up my checking account by accidently debiting my account 400 bucks when they thought they did not get defective hardware back. Sufficed to say IMO their Cs blows large Hairy chunks. The only thing that remotely makes them good is the superstation pack (if they still Have it).


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## cwerdna (Feb 22, 2001)

I'm not sure as I haven't looked at Dish's channel packages recently. However, Dish was immediately ruled out because they didn't have DishTivo (or some other PVR w/the equivalent level of functionality, reliability and UI quality). I've E* a number of times at CES that I'd like them to have a DishTivo.

It's a total longshot, but if TiVo and Dish settle their dispute, there could be a partnership. It happens pretty frequently in the tech industry. TiVo kinda needs another source of customers anyyway.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Billy Bob Boy said:


> If and when it would happen and D* NO LONGER SUPPORTS TIVO I would move! But that wont be for a long time.


It depends on what you call "support". D* send HD locals here, but my TiVo can't receive them. This I'm considering "not supporting" TiVo so I'll be trying out an S3 when its available. (Which means I'll be trying "Comcrap", which doesn't fill me with joy.)

If there were a similar TiVo for Dish, I'd check that out.


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## Fluffybear (Nov 10, 2000)

As much as I hate Dish Network (I did look at it sometime ago), I would probably have to consider them if they developed a DVR with Tivo. 

MY wife does not like the DirecTV DVR's and the way they are set-up. I suspect we will be using 2 different HD DVR's in our hosue as long as DirecTV continues to support a MPEG-2 stream for SD


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## HomieG (Feb 17, 2003)

I'd consider them, especially if their HD package included voom and NGC-HD.


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## tommiet (Oct 28, 2005)

I like my Tivo, but it's not a religion for me. I can live with the basic DVR features. No hacking required. With E* offering a dual tuner HD receiver (that also records OTA) I'm dumping D* next week. 

I'm more interested in HD content than TIVO. I tried a 10-250. What a piece of junk. My dealer felt so bad, after three units with the same problem, they gave me my money back (no questions asked.) D* also let me out of the 2 year commitment that I knew nothing about. Still running my Hughes DVR (Ebay will be calling her soon.)

TVIO is better... But I think E* has better HD content and a working HD DVR. And for only $5.00 a month more, I get 2 TV's, 20 HD channels AND one extra Premium channel. 

Miss Tivo, YES. But I can live without it.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

I'll take whoever supports digital recording with a TiVo DVR, built in support for MRV, HME, TTG, etc.(Sure wish cable was a choice, I'd use cablecard)

I really don't care if Dish charges a bit more because I will just put SA TiVo's throughtout the house and move content around from a single DishDVR (perhaps 2)


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

tbeckner said:


> But the biggest problem with a TiVo DVR for Dish, is that TiVo has been suing Dish for the last few years, and I highly doubt that Dish would like to do business with TiVo.


Samo thinks that is why there will be a DishTiVo

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3822234#post3822234


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

You guys are dreaming if you think there will be a DishTiVo. Ergen never met a technology he didn't think he could build in house for less money. They kicked Microsoft to the curb years ago, and they are not about to get in bed with another outside supplier.

They have a fully developed in-house DVR platform (which at this point is superior to the DirecTV in-house product) that is deployed across multiple devices. I can envision no circumstance under which Echostar would embrace TiVo. Even if Echostar were to lose the patent infringement case, they will either pay a fee for the specific patents, or alter the software such that it no longer infringes.

Far more likely is that Echostar will win the case. Remember that Ergen considers his legal department to be a profit center.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

The question is regardless of whether E* would get into bed with TiVo or not. If E* came out with a DishTiVo I'd hop over in a heartbeat.


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## PrimeRisk (Dec 16, 2002)

Guindalf said:


> With respect, this is one of the dumbest questions ever asked!
> 
> It's like saying "would you buy a Kia if they put a Honda engine in it?" The Honda engine makes it more appealing, but it's still a Kia. It's more than just TiVo that attracted most people to D*, so you have to look at the whole package... What channels would I get compared to what I have now? What would it cost? Is there any guarantee of reliability? Can I upgrade or hack? plus hundreds of other factors.


You have some points, but I don't think it is that black and white. As a point, both services (E* and D*) carry the bulk of the popular channels. I know that it really makes no difference to me for the channels I watch. I want TiVo. If I can get TiVo from E*, D*, and Comcrap then I'll go with the lowest cost provider that can deliver the quality I want (this leaves Comcrap out). Last time I checked the prices, E* was cheaper than D* for the channels I watch.



Guindalf said:


> E* are NOT planning a partnership with TiVo any more than Chevrolet is partnering with Ferrari! So this question has no bearing whatsoever.


Yup, or Ford with Jaguar or Mercedes with Chrysler...oh, wait...



Guindalf said:


> As for people deserting the ship for ComCrap, some may and others will not, assuming the deal actually becomes any more than vaporware. Remember that most of the population can't even GET ComCrap!


Well, we both totally agree on the ComCrap.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

MighTiVo said:


> Samo thinks that is why there will be a DishTiVo
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3822234#post3822234


Until Charlie at EchoStar says that it is true, it is irrational to believe that The Dish Network is going to embrace TiVo.

I could say that "Joe Smo" was going to be the Pope tomorrow but that would not make it so.

So, unless Samo is Charlie Ergen at EchoStar Communications, then based upon Charlie's past history with outside contractors, I would say that "Samo" is way off track.

I didn't state all of the reasons for Dish to not embrace TiVo in my original post, but I agree with Dan Collins, who has stated some of those reasons.

I know that we all feel "LEFT OUT" by the DirecTVs decision to drop TiVo, but it really is very irrational for us to believe that EchoStar would embrace TiVo, no matter how the lawsuit is finally settled. What all of need to understand is the dynamics and history of the satellite industry and especially where it surrounds Charlie Ergen at EchoStar Communication, aka The Dish Network.

Its just WISHFUL thinking to believe that Dish would embrace TiVo.

As an example of how Charlie Ergen thinks, see items listed below:

_In October 2005, Dish Network permanently cut service of one of its channels to its subscribers. The situation involved OLN and its owner Comcast. The Philadelphia, Pennsylvania-based cable provider refused to provide OLN's National Hockey League coverage to Dish, because it was not available on a sufficiently high-penetration tier. Dish then expelled OLN, claiming that customers would eventually have to pay more for a service that none of its customers had ever shown interest in. The situation will go on forever, meaning that OLN will never return to Dish Network's channel roster again._

_On January 1, 2006, Dish Network cut service of two additional channels to its subscribers: Lifetime Television, and its sister network Lifetime Movie Network. According to Dish, Lifetime demanded a 70% price increase of it's programming, whereas Lifetime claims the increase was only pennies. The companies came to an agreement and restored the channels on February 1._

In addition, there is very little reason for Dish to embrace TiVo, they are growing faster than DirecTV and they plan on switching to MPEG4 for all SD and HD channels shortly, see items listed below.

_On January 4, 2006, Echostar announced that Dish Network surpassed 12 million paid subscribers. In the last five years, DISH Network added more than 6.74 million net new customers, more than all other satellite TV and cable companies during the same period._

_Dish Network plans to convert the entire lineup, high-def and standard-def channels, to MPEG4 in order to provide more channels to subscribers. The new MPEG4 system uses the Dish 1000 system pulling from 110/119 and 129 orbital slots._


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

MighTiVo said:


> I'll take whoever supports digital recording with a TiVo DVR, built in support for MRV, HME, TTG, etc.(Sure wish cable was a choice, I'd use cablecard)


Sounds like you want an S3.


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## dirtypacman (Feb 3, 2004)

To answer OP question:

I have no intention of moving to a Sat. provider for any reason.


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## morgantown (Mar 29, 2005)

No NFLST, no way.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Dan Collins said:


> You guys are dreaming if you think there will be a DishTiVo. Ergen never met a technology he didn't think he could build in house for less money. They kicked Microsoft to the curb years ago, and they are not about to get in bed with another outside supplier.


I don't disagree, but my point is that Charlie has a real opportunity to capitalize on DTV's mistake and potentially raid subscribers.

There are lots of opportunities, AT&T getting BellSouth will probably end BellSouth's relationship with DTV as AT&T has a relationship with EchoStar.
AT&T has a relationship with Yahoo, and Yahoo has a relationship with TiVo...

I too would be surprised, but it would still be a good move!


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

tbeckner said:


> I could say that "Joe Smo" was going to be the Pope tomorrow but that would not make it so.
> [/I]


Perhaps if you said Joe Smo was going to be Pope tomorrow because the Pope has a day off and Joe has a meeting scheduled at the Vatican I might give some weight to your suggestion.

All Samo said was there exists a possibility as the lawsuit is settled this month. Seems a reasonable outcome, not guaranteed and not the only outcome but certainly a possibility.


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## PRMan (Jul 26, 2000)

In a second...

You should have made this a poll.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

PRMan said:


> In a second...
> 
> You should have made this a poll.


Ok
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3839845


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

MighTiVo said:


> I don't disagree, but my point is that Charlie has a real opportunity to capitalize on DTV's mistake and potentially raid subscribers.
> 
> There are lots of opportunities, AT&T getting BellSouth will probably end BellSouth's relationship with DTV as AT&T has a relationship with EchoStar.
> AT&T has a relationship with Yahoo, and Yahoo has a relationship with TiVo...
> ...


If you go back far enough in the satellite business you would find that Charlie Ergen and Murdoch where going to head a new satellite business (not DirecTV, but EchoStar/Dish and ASkyB) with Murdoch being the Chairman of the Board and Charlie would be the CEO, but the egos of both men got in the way and Charlie felt he couldn't live with Murdoch, so we now have Murdoch with DirecTV and Charlie still has EchoStar. And based upon how Charlie handles his network/delivery service and how his ego gets in the way, I really doubt that Charlie would allow EchoStar to embrace TiVo, "IT'S NOT IN HIS NATURE" and I doubt if his ego has changed especially since EchoStar has been growing faster than DirecTV over the last 5 years.

This has always been true, "TO SEE THE FUTURE LOOK TO THE PAST", HISTORY is the best teacher.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

MighTiVo said:


> I don't disagree, but my point is that Charlie has a real opportunity to capitalize on DTV's mistake and potentially raid subscribers...


It is highly debatable that they would "raid" that many subscribers. There are roughly 2 million DirecTV subscribers with DirecTiVos. Even if half defected to Dish Network to get a DishTiVo (a WILDLY optimistic number), it wouldn't begin to justify the cost of converting to a new DVR software that they would have to license, versus an in-house product with 5 years of R&D invested.

When you consider that 100,000 is a more realistic, but still optimistic, number of subscribers that would jump providers, it just makes no business sense.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Dan Collins said:


> It is highly debatable that they would "raid" that many subscribers. There are roughly 2 million DirecTV subscribers with DirecTiVos. Even if half defected to Dish Network to get a DishTiVo (a WILDLY optimistic number), it wouldn't begin to justify the cost of converting to a new DVR software that they would have to license, versus an in-house product with 5 years of R&D invested.
> 
> When you consider that 100,000 is a more realistic, but still optimistic, number of subscribers that would jump providers, it just makes no business sense.


Certainly not scientific but much closer to the 50/50 (especially if MRV and HMO are in the mix) than the 5% you suggest.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3841612


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

MighTiVo said:


> Certainly not scientific but much closer to the 50/50 (especially if MRV and HMO are in the mix) than the 5% you suggest.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3841612


Not only is that unscientific but it is completely biased. This is a TiVo forum, most people with DirecTivos don't really care about the software driving their DVR.


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## marrone (Oct 11, 2001)

If Dish decided to take Tivo, I'd consider switching.

Though at least one of my DirecTivos would have to go on the fritz.

But I do agree that it's something Charlie should consider. Whether it would make financial sense is something I wouldn't know. Chances are they'd have to raise the "DishTivo" fee to $10 or so in order for Dish to make some money off of it (to pay for the license fee that Tivo would want).

I'd probably be willing to pay it.

-Mike


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

bigpuma said:


> Not only is that unscientific but it is completely biased.





bigpuma said:


> most people with DirecTivos don't really care about the software driving their DVR.


That made me laugh.


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## Langree (Apr 29, 2004)

bigpuma said:


> most people with DirecTivos don't really care about the software driving their DVR.


I must be in the minority then, because I've used the Dish DVR while staying at a friends and MUCH prefer the DTivo software, and it's not based on any bias because I'm on a Tivo forum. Are there things they could do better, sure. But in my oppinion even with it's faults it's better then Dish's offering.

If Dish went to Tivo would I jump ship, no. But if I was ever in the position to need to choose it would weigh in.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

MighTiVo said:


> Certainly not scientific but much closer to the 50/50 (especially if MRV and HMO are in the mix) than the 5% you suggest.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3841612





SullyND said:


> That made me laugh.


Laugh all you want, but this is what is called a self-selected sample. Only those that had a strong enough opinion to bother answering the poll are counted. Even the entire membership of these forums is a self-selected subset of DirecTiVo owners consisting only of those sufficiently interested in TiVo to come to a discussion forum dedicted to that subject.

Look at it this way - even if EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF TIVOCOMMUNITY was a DirecTiVo owner (whch they are not), AND we ALL decided to switch to Dish Network to get a DishTiVo (which we would not), you are STILL only talking about roughly 120,000 subscribers.

Be realistic...if TiVo fanatics were not a large enough group for DirecTV to be concerned about, why would Echostar go out of their way to steal away some subset of the group?


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## SullyND (Dec 30, 2004)

Dan Collins said:


> Laugh all you want


Oh believe me, I don't disagree. You misunderstood my post.



bigpuma said:


> Not only is that unscientific but it is completely biased.





bigpuma said:


> most people with DirecTivos don't really care about the software driving their DVR.


The second statement clearly is scientific and without bias.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

You're right...I did misunderstand...thanks for the clarification.


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## bigpuma (Aug 12, 2003)

SullyND said:


> Oh believe me, I don't disagree. You misunderstood my post.
> 
> The second statement clearly is scientific and without bias.


Sure it is unscientific as it is just my opinion, but if I am biased it would be in the opposite direction. Like many people on this forum I prefer the TiVo software to just about anything else out there. I just don't believe there are enough of us "fanboys" to have any impact on DirecTV by switching to DISH, which is why I doubt DISH would ever pay to license TiVo software.

Really I just should just say read Dan's posts, he sums it up pretty well.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Seems to me that all this talk about how how few people would switch is contrary to the hard facts of customer retention or reduced churn of DTV owners with TiVo.

The churn rate for TiVo owners from the pool of 2 million subscribers with DTV is about 5000-10000 each month. That is about 1/3 that of the general customer base.

Perhaps it isn't the TiVo that reduces churn it is simply the type of people that would want a TiVo are the same type of people that wouldn't flip.

I haven't seen any analysis of where that population goes but I am guessing most of them aren't just dropping fee based television service entirely but are switching to an alternate provider.

Combine these numbers with the fact that some 200,000 TiVo owners are added each quarter to DTV it doesn't seem like a stretch to say that TiVo could have a reasonably significant impact on EchoStar's subscriber base.

All speculation, but I sure would like to see TiVo have a home with a satellite broadcaster.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

bigpuma said:


> Not only is that unscientific but it is completely biased. This is a TiVo forum, most people with DirecTivos don't really care about the software driving their DVR.





SullyND said:


> That made me laugh.


But "bigpuma" is right, just look at all of the first time cable DVR users who are happy with their DVR and the Motorola and Scientific Atlanta software really sucks bigtime.


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## tbeckner (Oct 26, 2001)

MighTiVo said:


> Seems to me that all this talk about how how few people would switch is contrary to the hard facts of customer retention or reduced churn of DTV owners with TiVo.
> 
> The churn rate for TiVo owners from the pool of 2 million subscribers with DTV is about 5000-10000 each month. That is about 1/3 that of the general customer base.
> 
> ...


But the bottom-line for everyone is what would Charlie do? And based upon past history and without adding the lawsuit to the mix, I believe Charlie's ego will get in the way and he will stay the course since he is beating out DirecTV as a percentage of net subscriber growth.

In other words, it is a pure "PIPE DREAM" to believe that Dish would embrace TiVo.

And all of that is without looking into the pure business implications that Dan Collins has pointed out.

When you put it all together, there is an almost ZERO CHANCE that Charlie would embrace TiVo.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

MighTiVo said:


> ...Perhaps it isn't the TiVo that reduces churn it is simply the type of people that would want a TiVo are the same type of people that wouldn't flip....


Actually, it is the DVR technology in general that reduces churn. Dish Network gets about the same results from their DVR, and I wouldn't be surprised if Comcast, Time Warner, etc., all see the same with THEIR DVRs as well. I switched from Dish Network to DirecTV in 2001 specifically to get TiVo DVRs, but I (like most everyone else here) am the exception, not the rule, when it comes to subscriber loyalty to TiVo.


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## Thespis (Apr 24, 2003)

> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by rlj5242
> > The Dishplayer was a buggy POS that caused a class action lawsuit.
> 
> ...


Actually, I did pretty good. I sold my DP 7200 (with it's massive 8GB hdd) on ebay for over $400. If they had just sold me a 501 for the same price as a new sub, I'd probably still be with them. But they wouldn't and I'm VERY glad.
Maybe the new Tivo/Verizon relationship (as lame as it is) may grow into a FIOS/Tivo DVR...


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Thespis said:


> Actually, I did pretty good. I sold my DP 7200 (with it's massive 8GB hdd) on ebay for over $400. If they had just sold me a 501 for the same price as a new sub, I'd probably still be with them. But they wouldn't and I'm VERY glad.
> Maybe the new Tivo/Verizon relationship (as lame as it is) may grow into a FIOS/Tivo DVR...


Chances are RBOC DVRs are all going to be MS based.

http://www.microsoft.com/tv/CustomersAndPartners.mspx


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Dan Collins said:


> Actually, it is the DVR technology in general that reduces churn.


Seems to me there could be many factors:
1) Cost to replace the DVR
2) DVR has programs stored on it that customer wants to watch leading to difficulty managing a switch
3) Satisfaction with the specific DVR software and unwillingness to change
4) Concern about learning a new system
5) Reluctance to set up a new DVR
6) Person was planning to stay long term with the provider before they got the DVR which is why they opted for the more expensive investment
7) Using the DVR improves overall satisfaction with the provider
8) The DVR improves perceived value leading to less temptation to shop around for lower cost

and the list could go on...


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

You miss my point: if you give a subscriber a DVR, they are less likely to churn. It matters very little (to the churn effect) whether that is a TiVo DVR, and DishPlayer, a DishDVR, a Scientific Atlanta DVR, a Motorola DVR, or any other DVR brand you care to name.

So, the reduction in churn DirecTV has seen among DirecTiVo subs is not directly a result of *TiVo* specifically, but rather an effect of DVRs in general. Indeed, your list apllies to ANY DVR - not just TiVo.

Therefore, the replacement of TiVo with an in-house brand of DVR will have no measurable impact on DirecTV's churn. Likewise, and on topic for this thread, there is little reason for Dish Network to go out of its way to switch to TiVo software, since they are already enjoying the "DVR-effect" with their own, in-house, DVR software.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Dan Collins said:


> You miss my point: if you give a subscriber a DVR, they are less likely to churn. It matters very little (to the churn effect) whether that is a TiVo DVR, and DishPlayer, a DishDVR, a Scientific Atlanta DVR, a Motorola DVR, or any other DVR brand you care to name.


If that is truly the case it was a good decision to drop TiVo by DirectTV and go with a cheap no frills who cares if it doesn't work well as long as it is called a DVR.

TiVo might as well close up shop based on your assesment...

Personally I disagree.
I believe TiVo provides first in class DVR functionality and any provider that partners with them will see subscriber growth based entirely on the TiVo experience and brand.


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## kiddk1 (Oct 9, 2003)

I would defect if they had nfl sunday ticket.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

MighTiVo said:


> I believe TiVo provides first in class DVR functionality and any provider that partners with them will see subscriber growth based entirely on the TiVo experience and brand.


While Tivo does provide first in class DVR functionality, the public is not informed enough to care. Any DVR that records shows and plays them back will make the majority of the public happy. And most of them will tell their neighbors how excited they are to have their new R15 Tivo, or Motorola Tivo, or Sci-Atl Tivo. The simple truth, no matter how painful to hear, is there aren't enough Tivo fanatics to make a difference.


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## btwyx (Jan 16, 2003)

Dan Collins said:


> Actually, it is the DVR technology in general that reduces churn.


Damn, I was hoping it was TiVo, not just "DVR" that did it so D* would get to see the error of their ways.


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## Diana Collins (Aug 21, 2002)

MighTiVo said:


> If that is truly the case it was a good decision to drop TiVo by DirectTV and go with a cheap no frills who cares if it doesn't work well as long as it is called a DVR.
> 
> TiVo might as well close up shop based on your assesment...
> 
> ...


But the difference between TiVo and other DVR systems is subtle. The average TV viewer barely gets the concept of the DVR, never mind the difference between one DVR and another.

Personally, I agree with you that TiVos are superior to other DVRs - and I'll warrant that most of the members of TiVoCommunity agree. However, as I pointed out above, we are a self-selected sample of people who DO care about one DVR over another. We also total only about 120,000 people - a rounding error in most provider's subscriber totals.

Perhaps TiVo's worst luck was that ReplayTV didn't become a bigger company. If there had been two viable "brand name" DVRs, both capturing mindshare in the market, the public would have demanded one of them over the "no-name" software used in most DVRs. But with only TiVo, the name came to mean DVR. Many of my friends with cable DVRs call them TiVos.

But again, I come back to the point that none of this is significant when we talk about churn. Dish Network has just as low churn numbers for their DVRs as does DirecTV with DirecTiVos.


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

It doesn't matter at all what I think, my wife would never abandon TiVo. She knows absolutely nothing about the "software". She does know about Season Pass, searching the guide, and finding programs by title. That is all she cares to know. 

What she knew about the dishplayer, and I am sure other DVR's is that they are way too much like a VCR. Impossible to set up to record with just a few button pushes. 

Echostar, DTV, Cable, Mice on treadmills, would not entice her one iota. It is TiVo and only Tivo. 

I would be reluctant to switch to Echostar after my previous experience with the dishplayer and the surly CSRs. Even retention was hostile when I called to leave.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

Jerry_K said:


> It doesn't matter at all what I think, my wife would never abandon TiVo. She knows absolutely nothing about the "software". She does know about Season Pass, searching the guide, and finding programs by title. That is all she cares to know.
> 
> What she knew about the dishplayer, and I am sure other DVR's is that they are way too much like a VCR. Impossible to set up to record with just a few button pushes.
> 
> ...


Ditto, I have a house full of electronics, gadgets, remotes, robots, etc.
As far as DVRs we have (or had) TiVo S1, TiVo S2, DTV TiVo, ReplayTV, and Dish PVR501.
I hated the 501, but the replay seemed easy enough to me.

However the TiVo's are the ONLY electronics that my wife uses without assistance and I never showed her how or what to do. I have to help her with the digital controls on the the microwave and toaster oven , but she knows how to set up a Season Pass, even a Wish List!


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## Jerry_K (Feb 7, 2002)

Bingo


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

MighTiVo said:


> Ditto, I have a house full of electronics, gadgets, remotes, robots, etc.
> As far as DVRs we have (or had) TiVo S1, TiVo S2, DTV TiVo, ReplayTV, and Dish PVR501.
> I hated the 501, but the replay seemed easy enough to me.
> 
> However the TiVo's are the ONLY electronics that my wife uses without assistance and I never showed her how or what to do. I have to help her with the digital controls on the the microwave and toaster oven , but she knows how to set up a Season Pass, even a Wish List!


Ok. So after adding your wife to the list it now stands at 120,001 people that care. The overall situation still hasn't changed.


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## PaJo (Dec 17, 2001)

bengalfreak said:


> Here's one guy that doesn't fit your bill. I switched from Dish to DTV because of one reason, DTV had Tivo. I liked Dish's offerings every bit as much as DTV's and I really liked the fact that they were a tad bit cheaper. I'd return to Echostar in a heartbeat if they introduced Tivo DVR's.


I agree, we would go back to Dish or Comcast if they switched to the Tivo service with Tivo taking care of everything, much like DTV did years ago. I would love to have Tivolution magazine back again, DTV turn the showcases into nothing more than commercials. It isn't the hardware that makes Tivo better it's the programming of the unit and how they set it up to help you manage your your viewning time to get the most quality out of the least amount of time.


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## Jace5 (Dec 17, 2005)

I wouldnt goto dish network if they had a dish tivo dvr I am happy with my service with directv


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## super dave (Oct 1, 2002)

I have never had any other DVR, just DTiVo, which isn't even a true TiVo. But just as I have had to learn new Computer OSs every few years I feel I could adapt to a new DVR. Heck, they even change.

What I am currently interested in is which provider is going to offer me the best HD offering for my money. My current commitment with DTV is up in June, so the next few months I am watching/reading as much as possible on who is offering/going to offer the best HD experience. The lack of information from DTV on his subject is disheartening. I feel they are just neglecting the whole HD market. Dan, do you have new info on this?


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## swkenney (Oct 27, 2004)

I already went to Dish. Because of where I live, DirecTV wanted $65 per month for standard package (total choice I guess). Dish allowed me to be a residential rather than a commercial customer, so I get Top 60 plus locals for about $40. Would be $72 with locals on DirecTV.

The things I don't like about Dish:

Only three actor names in program description.
Sometimes there is a skip in the audio during playback (not often) that works when you replay it, but a DVD recording might have the skip in it.

Things I like better about Dish

The live buffer is two hours.

With TiVo not showing free space, and not letting you mark everything SUID, every week I would extend the delete date on multiple shows. With Dish I can see the free space, and there is only protected or unproteced, no expiration date. I could mark everything protected if I wanted. It doesn't look ahead to see what will be recorded in future. Its up to you to make free space if necessary.

When you make a change to a timer (like a season pass) the change takes place immediately. With TiVo I had to wait 2 minutes sometimes. You can see what is being skipped in line with what will be recorded (like todo and history in one list) or you can click a button to hide the skipped shows.

While in the menu system there is a small picture in upper right wtih sound so you can watch live TV or recordings while doing other things.

The best of all - there are two separarte outputs in Dual Mode. I can record a show on the the hard drive to a DVD on TV1 while watching something else on TV2. So I can free up disk space without having to have watched the show.

If you want a free Dish system with DVR go to:
http://dishfree4you.com


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## wje (Jan 8, 2005)

I've been considering switching, Tivo or not. Since D* is dropping Tivo, I have no loyalty to them. E* at least seems to be actively supporting the their new, unmentionable, HD-DVR. It's not a Tivo, but the engineers monitor the newsgroups, and updates are being made frequently, instead of never for D*. Channel lineup is similar, and E* beat out D* for customer satisfaction in the last audit I've seen. So, when my HR10 dies yet again, it's bye-bye to D*.


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

swkenney said:


> [TiVo] not letting you mark everything SUID, every week I would extend the delete date on multiple shows.


All good stuff, but why can't you mark everything KUID/SUID?


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## swkenney (Oct 27, 2004)

MighTiVo said:


> All good stuff, but why can't you mark everything KUID/SUID?


If you have season passes with SUID entries, TiVo looks to see when you will run out of space, assuming that you will never delete any of the SUID shows in Now Playing.

Sometime when you go to mark a show SUID it will say that some programs will be be deleted earlier than planned. Other times it just wont let you do it because the space is too low.

I think it is stupid for the software to know how much approx. space is left, but it is not ok for you to know. It's like "oh - don't worry -we'll handle that - you don't need to know". But I want to be able to handle it myself.


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## mikeinla (Jun 6, 2004)

I would switch immediately.

If my dtv tivos ever fail, and I can't get a tivo replacement, I'll switch back to cable.


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## TeeVohFan (Dec 21, 2003)

I don't subscribe to DirecTV and I was thinking of signing up because they had DirecTiVo (I have stand-alone TiVo's). However, now that DirecTiVo is pretty iffy I'm having second thoughts about signing up. If Dish had a DishTiVo with dual tuners that wrote the data stream straight to the disk I'd give them a try.

The last time I looked at DirecTV and looked at signing up I got an offer to do a survey. Usually I skip those on any site, but this time I filled it out and let them know the reason I didn't sign up was because I was interested in a TiVo DVR. One opinion won't make a diff, but it felt good letting them know mine.

--


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## swkenney (Oct 27, 2004)

TeeVohFan said:


> If Dish had a DishTiVo with dual tuners that wrote the data stream straight to the disk I'd give them a try.


When you say DishTivo do you mean not just a dvr but specifically with TiVo software? The only main thing missing from a Dish dvr is a list of many actors in the description. There are things something like wishlists, but not by category and weak on # of actors.

Have you tried a Dish dvr and found it undesirable?


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## MighTiVo (Oct 26, 2000)

swkenney said:


> If you have season passes with SUID entries, TiVo looks to see when you will run out of space, assuming that you will never delete any of the SUID shows in Now Playing.
> 
> Sometime when you go to mark a show SUID it will say that some programs will be be deleted earlier than planned. Other times it just wont let you do it because the space is too low.
> 
> ...


True but TiVo still operates just fine, recording until it does run out of space and deleting non SUID programs as necessary.

The implication was that TiVo didn't function properly if all was set to SUID while Dish work fine when setting all to protected. Dish simply fails to warn you about the programs that will be deleted or not recorded if no protected programs are deleted.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

If DISH Network would offer a high-definition, MPEG-4 and Ka-band capable DVR with actual TIVO software, which also supported HMO options, and then would stand behind it and assure us that they were with TIVO for the long haul, then would eventually supply all of the HD channels in real 1080i, would add HD channels as soon as possible and would stop the practice of removing channels to save us money, I'd abandon the sinking DirecTV ship in less than a second and I'd never look back. Heck - I'd sign a 10 year commitment with them for that.


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