# Resale Value of Tivo Ruined



## techieunite (Oct 18, 2005)

The resale value of any used and not in service tivo is now ruined by the new tivo pricing.

Somebody can effectively get a tivo for "free" either after rebate or directly from tivo.com.

The series 3 obviously is much more expensive and as of right now has no rebate or discount incentive built into the price of the unit. It's worth is still left to be seen.

But if I wanted to sell my used series2 Dual tuner, I am basically out of luck. Who would want to buy a used tivo. Effectively what tivo has done by eliminating any new MSD(multi service discounts) units at the old $6.95 price has turned many people away.

If somebody wanted to buy a used tivo and subscribe as an additional unit on their existing account, the benefit used to be that it would only be $6.95. But now, unless you want to commit to three years, it's now $14.95 or possibly $8.95. Much more than it used to be. And the tivo box would have basically no warranty. 

The only tivos that seem to have any value now are the series1 that can record with basic recordings, the limited dvd-rw toshiba and pioneer units, and the series 3. 

Virtually all other series2 units are worth virtually nothing as resale items unless they have some sort of lifetime service on them.

Thanks Tivo. When my contract ends I'll be canceling service on both my tivos and shelving my dual tuner. My toshiba RS-TX20 can still be used with free 3 day guide, but the dual tuner is practically worthless.


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## Turtleboy (Mar 24, 2001)

I've never bought anything in my life thinking about the resale value, with the exception of my condos. I buy things to use for myself.

:shrug:


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## GusMan (Nov 16, 2004)

techieunite said:


> Thanks Tivo. When my contract ends I'll be canceling service on both my tivos and shelving my dual tuner. My toshiba RS-TX20 can still be used with free 3 day guide, but the dual tuner is practically worthless.


So, you are going to take this stand and cancel just because your peice of electronic equiptment doesnt have a resale value? Maybe I missed something in your post, but that does not make sense unless you only planned on keeping it one single year.

But there is a resale value in the parts of the Tivo if you really wanted there to be. Between the hard drive and power supply, there is some value on the resale market or even through reusing some parts for other purposes. I know that when I switched to a DTivo, I used the drive out of my 140 hr unit in one of my computers that needed extra space. So it was not a total lost cause. But I still have the chassis with power supplies just in case.


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## techieunite (Oct 18, 2005)

You're right. I bought the tivo for myself. However, technology changes.

And having an extra tivo around is not quite the same as having a extra dvd player around. I can always give an older extra dvd player away and know that the person I'm giving it to can get full use of it. A tivo minus a subscription has no feature that anybody can use.

Without a subscription on most tivos they are basically worthless. What other piece of electronics equipment do you know of that you can purchase that is worthless without a subscription with the exception of a cell phone?

And even most cell phones are worth something even when they don't have service because somebody can subscribe to service for a reasonable rate. In the most basic state they still support 911.

reasonable rate is in the eye of the who has to foot the bill. I do not find it reasonable to pay $14.95 to record television or to be stuck in some sort of contract for a long period of time just to get some sort of discount.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

techieunite said:


> Without a subscription on most tivos they are basically worthless. What other piece of electronics equipment do you know of that you can purchase that is worthless without a subscription with the exception of a cell phone?


DirectTV, Dish, Sirius, XM, etc.


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## GusMan (Nov 16, 2004)

techieunite said:


> Without a subscription on most tivos they are basically worthless. What other piece of electronics equipment do you know of that you can purchase that is worthless without a subscription with the exception of a cell phone?


 I have two dish receivers - both are about 10 years old. Paid a bundle for them. They work perfectly. However, they have no resale value.

Heck, their resale value was down to nothing about 3 years after I got them.

I got my use out of them and that worked for me. If I hold on to my tivos only for a few years, I still would feel that I got my moneys worth and would not be worrying about resale value.

My XM units would fetch hardly the cost that I paid for them. Thats ok - I got my moneys worth out of them as well. They work great, I still listen, and I still pay the monthly fees.



> I do not find it reasonable to pay $14.95 to record television...


If this is more about paying a subscription for Tivo, then that is a different story. We all go into a Tivo purchase knowing there is a monthly fee. The vast majority see value in the service Tivo provides, even at current costs. But some dont and that is OK. From you last post, you might be a part of the latter group and, as mentioned, that is ok. Feel free to cancel when your commitment is up and cut your losses any way you can. I dont mean for that to sound rude but the topic of service costs vs. value comes up often and I dont think there is a change in the general consensus.


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## lessd (Jan 23, 2005)

techieunite said:


> The resale value of any used and not in service tivo is now ruined by the new tivo pricing.
> 
> Somebody can effectively get a tivo for "free" either after rebate or directly from tivo.com.
> 
> ...


Somebody on the old TiVo month to month deal has his TiVo break out of warranty TiVo would charge him $159 to fix it so you unit is worth about $50-$60 just to replace the broken TiVo and keep the monthly contract.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Hate to tell you, but used units without lifetime service never really had that much resale value anyway. 

No reason to recommend buying a used unit now, unless someone wants it for parts (primarily the power supply) to repair a lifetime unit.


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## samo (Oct 7, 1999)

Lets count my loses. $500 down a drain on S1, $300 down a drain on S2 - bad, very bad. Brings memories too. $1000 down a drain on beta VCR, $6000 down a drain on my first 286, $3000 down a drain on my first laser printer, $2000 down a drain on camcorder.... I have to stop here because I'm about to start remembering how much I spent on my wife and kids.


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

Well I have 2 single tuner Series 2 TiVos the total cost of both units after rebates delivered to my house was $0. 

I have upgrade both unit's hard drives and one has lifetime so they may have some residual value. But if they were still stock just exactly how much should I expect units I paid $0 new for to be worth used? 

Thanks,


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

rainwater said:


> DirectTV, Dish, Sirius, XM, etc.


Except that for Dish you don't generally buy the equipment, you lease it.

And at least with a cell phone, sirius, or XM, there is still a substantial resale value to it after you're done.


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## JacksTiVo (Jan 7, 2006)

Damn, every year computer manufacturers come out with new improved models with flat panel monitors at lower and lower prices and the resale value of my existing computer keeps going down. I think I'll just stop buying computers and buy a used typewriter for $0.

I bought my Series 1 five years ago ($440 plus $250 lifetime) to "change" my life not to make an investment in a piece of electronic gear. You buy real estate if you want to maintain a resale value. All other things in this world depreciate. The value of recently sold Series 1 units with lifetime on EBay was what I paid for my lifetime subscription, $250. Because TiVo had the initiative to develop the Series 2 & 3 the resale value of my Series 1 declined. So what, I never bought it as an investment.
Until I became a member of the TCF it never occurred to me that a used TiVo had any value. So I am ahead of the game and I wasn't even playing.

Their new pricing structure is a reasonable business decision. They have to start making money soon or they will go out of business. If that happens, then the Series 1,2 & 3 units will all make great door stops and we will all have to suffer with the Scientific-Atlanta DVRs.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

JacksTiVo said:


> Damn, every year computer manufacturers come out with new improved models with flat panel monitors at lower and lower prices and the resale value of my existing computer keeps going down.


Yes, but does the PC MFGR sell one to you for 1000, then the next day give one free to a guy who subscribes to their internet service?


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Gai-jin said:


> Except that for Dish you don't generally buy the equipment, you lease it.
> 
> And at least with a cell phone, sirius, or XM, there is still a substantial resale value to it after you're done.


Yeah, my 2 Sirius receivers sell for about $12 on eBay.

I hate to break to it anyone, but any product that is sold for a loss and require service contracts to recoup money, is not going to have much resale value. I'm not sure I understand the surprise here.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

rainwater said:


> Yeah, my 2 Sirius receivers sell for about $12 on eBay.
> 
> I hate to break to it anyone, but any product that is sold for a loss and require service contracts to recoup money, is not going to have much resale value. I'm not sure I understand the surprise here.


Is it a current model? How much or little did you pay for it new? Of course if it's years old the value decreases. However, tivo has effectively given the S2 value a <0 resale value.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

Gai-jin said:


> However, tivo has effectively given the S2 value a <0 resale value.


So what? TiVos have never had much resale value to begin with other than lifetime units. Also, TiVos haven't had hardly any resale value for almost a year since they started offering the bundled units.


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## minckster (Aug 31, 2006)

Won't TiVo have to stop selling or giving away the S2 in March 2007*, because it lacks a ATSC tuner? I'd imagine that the resale value of S2s would rebound slightly then.

* My date for the cutoff may be waaaaay off.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

rainwater said:


> I hate to break to it anyone, but any product that is sold for a loss and require service contracts to recoup money, is not going to have much resale value. I'm not sure I understand the surprise here.


Most service providers who operate this way will offer some kind of discounted service or reduced contract to equipment that is owned outright, with no subsidy. This is my #1 complaint about tivo's new pricing. I own tivo boxes that either were bought when no contract was required, or have already fulfilled at least 1 contract. It is downright foolish of tivo to not want me using those.

And if I could resub such a tivo with a 3 mo commitment, and or a 12.95 rate, then perhaps a used tivo would still have some value >0 for resale.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

minckster said:


> Won't TiVo have to stop selling or giving away the S2 in March 2007*, because it lacks a ATSC tuner? I'd imagine that the resale value of S2s would rebound slightly then.
> 
> * My date for the cutoff may be waaaaay off.


Perhaps, but I expect by that time tivo will be offering the DT box as the free tivo box, which still leaves S2 as < 0 value.


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## techieunite (Oct 18, 2005)

I guess I may have been wrong initially.

My Dual tuner series2 has some resale value, since on tivo.com its still $69 for a new one. That means that I could sell it for something after I'm done with it. It wouldn't be for much, maybe $30 or so.

But when I purchased it, it costs $200. I got a $150 mail in rebate, effectively making it $50. I thought that I would be keeping it for a long time. But then I purchased a HDTV and found that the picture quality wasn't as good as the DVR provided by comcast, so it is in the bedroom on a 24 inch RCA tv.

I never meant for anybody on this forum to get upset, I was just making a point that by changing the pricing structure, they changed any potential resale value.

I've always given or sold my outdated electronic equipment to friends and family. Many a computer has been passed down, along with DVD players, mp3 players, wireless cards, cell phones, tvs, DVD burners etc. When I get something new, somebody gets my old stuff.

With tivo, I can do the same thing, but the chance that somebody would want to subscribe @ 14.95 on a new account isn't very likely.


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## rainwater (Sep 21, 2004)

minckster said:


> Won't TiVo have to stop selling or giving away the S2 in March 2007*, because it lacks a ATSC tuner? I'd imagine that the resale value of S2s would rebound slightly then.


That doesn't affect the S2 DT though.


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## GusMan (Nov 16, 2004)

I dont think anyone is upset but the fact is your net cost for a piece of technology is $50 and you are commenting about how it may not have value afterwards. I am sure people spend a lot more on a lot less than what value Tivo provides over the course of a year commitment. Heck, some people spend that on Starbucks in a week and get less value than the same money spent on Tivo.

Even if they did not change it and still ofered the rebate the fact still is that you would not be able to get more than $20 for it or so, just because of the rebate.

You mention the whole hand-me-down thing and while I do this myself, the thing is that not everything is designed to have residual value. Sure, I could give my Tivos to a family member and they would not care that it was used but the fact is that if they dont want to pay a monthy fee it is still worth nothing to them. 

So, bottom line is this... if you like your Tivo and get value out of what you pay per month, then keep it and enjoy. If not, put it up on eBay for $20 and see what happens.


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## Gregor (Feb 18, 2002)

I never buy any consumer good considering the resale value. Furthest thing from my mind, actually.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Personally, it's not 'resale' value that bothers me, but regifting value. I like to give these away, to save someone having to buy their own equipment. (or sign a longterm contract). 

TiVo really neeeds to fix it so hardware that is already owned by the sub, or purchased at full retail w/o rebate, doesn't have a contract or the higher rates. It's a real ripoff to charge the box subsidy on a box that's already been paid for many times over.


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## robbins (Aug 23, 2005)

I dumped Tivo a few months ago and I am soooo glad that we did. We now have a much better, faster, and even less expensive DVR.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

techieunite said:


> Without a subscription on most tivos they are basically worthless. What other piece of electronics equipment do you know of that you can purchase that is worthless without a subscription with the exception of a cell phone?


It's perfectly acceptable for cell phones, but god forbid that any other device require a subscription to be used. What the hell kind of arguement is that?

BTW even w/o a subscription a SA S2 can still be used to watch live TV and pause, FF and RW through the 30 minute buffer. Personally I think that's far more useful than the ability to call 911 from a no service cellphone.



> But when I purchased it, it costs $200. I got a $150 mail in rebate, effectively making it $50.


Tivo did adversely affect resale values by offering very generous rebates and bundled pricing. You However, purchased your DT Tivo after all of this started and you got yourself a good deal. You paid only $50 so why are you *****ing about resale value? How much resale value do you expect out of a $50 item?


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## Leon WIlkinson (Feb 13, 2000)

mick66 said:


> I resale value? How much resale value do you expect out of a $50 item?


$250-$300


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

mick66 said:


> It's perfectly acceptable for cell phones, but god forbid that any other device require a subscription to be used. What the hell kind of arguement is that??


Actually, you'll often find cell phones have a very high resale value. For popular phones, I've seen them sell 2nd hand for more than you could get them from the carrier. This is because you don't have to sign a longterm contract when activating a phone which you get w/o subsidy. So rather than a 2 year contract and $250 for a phone, someone might pay $300 or more for the same phone from a 3rd party.


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## mick66 (Oct 15, 2004)

Gai-jin said:


> Actually, you'll often find cell phones have a very high resale value. For popular phones, I've seen them sell 2nd hand for more than you could get them from the carrier. This is because you don't have to sign a longterm contract when activating a phone which you get w/o subsidy. So rather than a 2 year contract and $250 for a phone, someone might pay $300 or more for the same phone from a 3rd party.


*WTF* are you talking about? My statement had nothing to do with resale value of cell phones or Tivo. It was a direct response to:


techieunite said:


> Without a subscription on most tivos they are basically worthless. What other piece of electronics equipment do you know of that you can purchase that is worthless without a subscription with the exception of a cell phone?


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

robbins said:


> I dumped Tivo a few months ago and I am soooo glad that we did. We now have a much better, faster, and even less expensive DVR.


Your DVR must have problem recording and/or playing back programs because you're spending time here.


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## JustAllie (Jan 5, 2002)

The very reason I invested in a lifetime subscription for each of my TiVos is to maximize the resale value -- because lifetime subs hold their value well, you used to end up paying very little for the TiVo service after taking resale into account. For example, I bought my first TiVo for $399, spent $199 for lifetime service, invested about $100 in an extra hard drive for it, used it for 3.5 years, and then resold it on eBay for $425. Let's see, that works out to about $6.75 per month for hardware and service costs over the time I owned it. It was a great deal in the end. 

I guess I'm lucky in that I already had lifetime on all of my TiVos before they eliminated the lifetime subs. I'll transfer lifetime from an old TiVo to my new Series3. And whenever I purchase my next TiVo, I'll know that resale is not an issue anymore, so I'll think of them as disposable items.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Lifetime is not the only thing folks are looking for on ebay. If you want to enhance resale, plant flowers in front.

In the case of Tivo, upgrade it.

Slap two 400 gb drives in your tivo and sell on ebay- make good profit. If it is a DTivo, hack it- a lot of folks still want modded DTivos but don't know how to do it or don't have the time. There are SO many ways to make your Tivo stand out besides Lifetime. Mod it, do some cut outs- put in lights- make it unique. There are 4 million Tivo owners out that are potentially interested in something unique and powerful. That's what made them Tivo owners.


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## GoHokies! (Sep 21, 2005)

c3 said:


> Your DVR must have problem recording and/or playing back programs because you're spending time here.


No robbins, just like to **** in every thread he can adding no real content and bragging about his better, faster, cheaper DVR. Apparently it's so good that he'd rather spend time *****ing about Tivo months after the fact than use the DVR to watch some TV. 

Justin, that's a great point that's lost on a lot of people around here. Still, when the hardware new is do cheap I'm not sure how you can go into it expecting some resale value down the road.


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## ZeoTiVo (Jan 2, 2004)

techieunite said:


> With tivo, I can do the same thing, but the chance that somebody would want to subscribe @ 14.95 on a new account isn't very likely.


 so what was the chance at 12.95 or 6.95 for a year comittment. I think the thing is your point has been an obvious thing about unsusbscribed TiVo hardware for quite some time now


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## atmuscarella (Oct 11, 2005)

I would agree with ZeoTiVo and others in this post that it would be highly unlikely that many people would be willing to subscribe existing old unsubscribed TiVos under TiVos current terms. 

I think it is stupidity on TiVo's part to try an force owners of unsubscribed older TiVos into long term contracts while they are basically giving away new boxes. Which pretty much makes it clear that TiVo would prefer to give you a new box than allow you to sub an older unsubscribed TiVo. 

As more people go HD there will be more and more series 1 and series 2 TiVos out there that people will no longer need - I guess TiVo thinks its better that they become door stops than to allow someone else to sub them monthly and without a commitment. 

A year from now if someone was selling used Series 3 for less than 1/2 what I could buy a new one for I would take the chance and sub it for 3 years, but not with a Series 1 or 2. 

Thanks,


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## CharlesH (Aug 29, 2002)

Gai-jin said:


> Actually, you'll often find cell phones have a very high resale value. For popular phones, I've seen them sell 2nd hand for more than you could get them from the carrier. This is because you don't have to sign a longterm contract when activating a phone which you get w/o subsidy. So rather than a 2 year contract and $250 for a phone, someone might pay $300 or more for the same phone from a 3rd party.


That depends on the provider. Verizon Wireless requires a contract even for bring-your-own-phone. SprintPCS won't allow you bring a phone unless that specific phone (not just the model) was originally bought through them or their agents. GSM providers such as Cingular tend to be much more generous about this.


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## DarkAudit (Oct 16, 2003)

> I do not find it reasonable to pay $14.95 to record television


The cable versions aren't much cheaper.

Based on that statement, I doubt _any_ DVR currently available would suit your standards.


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## HiDefGator (Oct 12, 2004)

Didn't the latest price update or marketing blurb make the DT free? I thought the whole $200+ was now being rebated on the dual tuner.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

HiDefGator said:


> Didn't the latest price update or marketing blurb make the DT free? I thought the whole $200+ was now being rebated on the dual tuner.


No. $180 rebate.


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## jamiebez (Aug 30, 2006)

Whoever said there's no resale value on TiVo's is obviously not from Canada. Because they don't sell boxes up here (and customs charges can be so high), there is still a huge market for second hand Series 2 models.

I just bought a used Series 2, 80 hour for $100US on EBay a mere 3 weeks ago. And considered myself lucky to get a "good" deal on it


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## mattack (Apr 9, 2001)

DarkAudit said:


> The cable versions aren't much cheaper.
> 
> Based on that statement, I doubt _any_ DVR currently available would suit your standards.


Well, there are recorders that allow you to record *everything* manually. (And some that have TV Guide On Screen, which seems to cause some people lots of trouble.)

I have a manual recorder to use along my (lifetime) Tivos, because I can do things the DVD recorder Tivos don't let you do (edit recordings, including saving only a portion of a recording, e.g. 5 minutes in the middle).

I do get the mindset of the people who don't want to pay another monthly fee, which is why the Series 3 lifetime transfer option is VERY tempting... If the S3 is $300 in the next year, it will probably have been a bad gamble except in the very very very long run.


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## Solver (Feb 17, 2005)

To bad you cant take a bunch of spare unsubscribed TiVos and hook them together on the Internet using their combined processing power to help solve the worlds problems.


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## DVReveler (May 8, 2004)

From what I remember didn't they change the pricing plans right when the DT came out? Maybe I'm wrong on that. Also, they announced the S3 well before the DT was out so you should've known your DT would be less than desireable once the S3 came out. I'm not sure why you're complaining, sounds like you should've waited for the S3.


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## Stormspace (Apr 13, 2004)

When I bought my S2DT two months ago it was at the inflated cost of 19.95/month to offset hardware costs. No problem. At the time I asked the TiVo rep if my rate plan would go to 12.95/month after the 1 year commitment was over and he said yes, so it'll be interesting what will happen next October when I call to make certain it reverted to 12.95. 

Otherwise I'm a bit leery of the whole situation. Seems like a lot of spin going on. Kind of like the AllState commercials about accident forgiveness. "We won't hold an accident against you, even if it is your fault." Basically this is saying that we'll forgive one accident whether its your fault or not. After that all your accidents will cause an increase, even those not your fault. Hell, even the example in the commercial is for an accident that's not the drivers fault. 

TiVo's spin machine is working hard on this to say it's not an increase, but for the average user it really is. Three years is really a long time for a consumer electronics item like TiVo.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

I say let the Hacks begin. Guess it's time to hack the S2 that's worth absolutely nothing after it goes un-subed. It's a good thing that all my Tivo's are lifetime or that would be my next course of action. An no I'm not talking about stealing service, but I am talking about changing the way my un-subed Tivo works. I would set it up so that it no longer phones home to Tivo. I would provide guide data to it myself and have it set to get the time from a different network time source. Of course video extraction would be next, etc. If the box is considered trash after the initial purchase why not hack it...

Y-ASK


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

1. Because there is a code to live by about stuff like that. With knowlege comes power, with power comes responsibility and so on and so forth.

2. Because no Tivo hacker worth his salt is going to give you enough information for you to figure out how.

3. Because if you were good enough to figure out how on your own and had enough time to engineer it, you could instead make a mind blowing amount of money working on your own product.

4. Because you are spending time online yammering about it on BBS's, blowing away time in chat rooms and on senseless games and not hacking.

5. Because coding is somewhat less trivial than talking.

Well? You axed.


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## MediaLivingRoom (Dec 10, 2002)

They only care about the current quarters earnings.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Justin Thyme said:


> 1. Because there is a code to live by about stuff like that. With knowlege comes power, with power comes responsibility and so on and so forth.


And what code would that be? What moral high ground are you talking about? I'm talking about taking a boat anchor and making it useful without involving Tivo Inc. what so ever. I'm not talking about hacking an "H" card to get free TV.



Justin Thyme said:


> 2. Because no Tivo hacker worth his salt is going to give you enough information for you to figure out how.


BS, you know where the forum is for that stuff and what's currently available. If I lived in Canada it'd be no problem.



Justin Thyme said:


> 3. Because if you were good enough to figure out how on your own and had enough time to engineer it, you could instead make a mind blowing amount of money working on your own product.


Please, where's your code and your bundle of money? 



Justin Thyme said:


> 4. Because you are spending time online yammering about it on BBS's, blowing away time in chat rooms and on senseless games and not hacking.


As if you don't yammer enough for the both of us. Take a look at my join date and yours and then take a look at my post count and yours. Now who's the one yammer'n here? 



Justin Thyme said:


> 5. Because coding is somewhat less trivial than talking..


Ok, you've got me there . But don't you think if Tivo continues to go down the corporate path that hacking the box would be more acceptable? Where are all you open source people at?

Y-ASK


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

I thought they were flippant answers myself. If you weren't amused, fine.

But really. If you are into engineering, go for it. 

As for me, I'm retired and typing here beats changing diapers.


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## Y-ASK (Aug 17, 2001)

Justin Thyme said:


> I thought they were flippant answers myself. If you weren't amused, fine.


It was the end of a long day and maybe I did come across a little harsh. I did try to use some smilies . Any way my comments were probably a little trollish trying to stir things up. As far as hacking, never mind...

Y-ASK


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## n21jc (Mar 17, 2006)

Justin Thyme said:


> As for me, _I'm retired and typing here beats changing diapers_.


If your Depends need changing, you should change them!


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## CMX83 (Nov 22, 2006)

GusMan said:


> So, you are going to take this stand and cancel just because your peice of electronic equiptment doesnt have a resale value? Maybe I missed something in your post, but that does not make sense unless you only planned on keeping it one single year.
> 
> But there is a resale value in the parts of the Tivo if you really wanted there to be. Between the hard drive and power supply, there is some value on the resale market or even through reusing some parts for other purposes. I know that when I switched to a DTivo, I used the drive out of my 140 hr unit in one of my computers that needed extra space. So it was not a total lost cause. But I still have the chassis with power supplies just in case.


I don't see it that way. I retired my series 1 machine (no account) to my spare room and still use it. I don't have the program guide but as long as I know the time and what channel I want to record, I can use it like an old VCR using manual record. It prompts me to activate but just ignore it. Works for me.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Stormspace said:


> TiVo's spin machine is working hard on this to say it's not an increase, but for the average user it really is. Three years is really a long time for a consumer electronics item like TiVo.


Actually, it isn't. What Tivo hasn't made clear is that you are committing to the SERVICE for the term of your agreement, not a particular BOX.

If you want to switch from a Series 2 to a Series 3 in the middle of your contract term, you can.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> Actually, it isn't. What Tivo hasn't made clear is that you are committing to the SERVICE for the term of your agreement, not a particular BOX.
> 
> If you want to switch from a Series 2 to a Series 3 in the middle of your contract term, you can.


And yet, this is 3 years longer than any other DVR provider requires. And you can keep pushing the 'you're not locked to the box' line, but it doesn't work. You're still locked into a tivo box, even when some other company is 2 years ahead of tivo in development of new features and hardware. Most of America doesn't want to lock into any one service or company for that long. Most people I know have a problem with a 2 year cell phone contract.


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## jfh3 (Apr 15, 2004)

Gai-jin said:


> You're still locked into a tivo box, even when some other company is 2 years ahead of tivo in development of new features and hardware.


LOL! Which company would that be?



> Most of America doesn't want to lock into any one service or company for that long. Most people I know have a problem with a 2 year cell phone contract.


And yet there hasn't been enough of an outcry for the cell phone vendors to change. And there are millions more cell phone customers than Tivo customers.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

jfh3 said:


> LOL! Which company would that be?
> 
> And yet there hasn't been enough of an outcry for the cell phone vendors to change. And there are millions more cell phone customers than Tivo customers.


2 years from now? Who can say who the leader in DVR tech will be?

As for cell phones -- they give you an option to purchase HW at full price or use existing pre-owned hardware and not sign up for a long term contract.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Gai-jin said:


> As for cell phones -- they give you an option to purchase HW at full price or use existing pre-owned hardware and not sign up for a long term contract.


Not with Verizon. Minimum for any plan is one year. If I wanted to get more talk time on my wife's phone, in her case I was required to sign her up for a 2 year commitment. And her phone is 3 years old. She didn't want a "free" new phone, but she is still stuck with a 2 year comitment.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Justin Thyme said:


> Not with Verizon. Minimum for any plan is one year. If I wanted to get more talk time on my wife's phone, in her case I was required to sign her up for a 2 year commitment. And her phone is 3 years old. She didn't want a "free" new phone, but she is still stuck with a 2 year comitment.


Only if you want the promotional plans/features. If you're willing to give up the free N&W or M2M or whatever the promos of the month are and just take a basic plan, you don't have to do a new commitment.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Gai-jin said:


> As for cell phones -- they give you an option to purchase HW at full price or use existing pre-owned hardware and not sign up for a long term contract.


Tivo does sort of give you the option to pay full price for the HW and not have to sign up for a long term contract as you can change over service from any other TSN (besides lifetime). I know it is not the same, but it could be after your contract is up.

Say you do 3 yrs prepaid or monthly (no MSD) after the 3 yrs you will then pay $12.95/month (number could change of course, but for this example keep it at the current price). If 3 years and 1 month you can upgrade hardware, pay full price and then be going only $12.95/month. I know this is not the same as cell phone service as with TIvo you have to do a committment first, you can't just grab a box retail and activate it month to month, etc.

Also with the cell phone example of how they give you the option to purchase HW at full and go without a long term contract that is because the savigns you get on the HW with the long term contract is say what, about $200. Most plans now are $39.99/month plus taxes and surcharges so they come out to around $50/month. That means in 4 months it all balances out. With the $180 rebate and most expensive servce of $20/month that is 9 months and the $220 rebate that is 11 months. By that time might as well at least commit for a year as it make little sense to buy new HW and forfeit rebate. Existing hardware though of course is a different situation and doesn't fall in there.

Also question is if Tivo is to offer only a month by month service for forfeiting rebate and/or using existing hardware how much do you think it would be? In the example forfeiting rebate I don't think there is a way to do it at this point of time in which anyone would do it. Rebate is $220 for ST and the price is $220 or you can do 1 year service and rebate or 1 yr service and box from Tivo for $199 (or $240 if do month by month). Gee wonder what people would do. As far as existing boxes go I do not see Tivo going much lower then the monthly price for 1 year agreement, maybe $14.95/month but not any lower then that.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Gai-jin said:


> Only if you want the promotional plans/features. If you're willing to give up the free N&W or M2M or whatever the promos of the month are and just take a basic plan, you don't have to do a new commitment.


I will take your word on that one. I thought cell phone companies don't offer a month to month, they were like Tivo and said we have this package for $39.99/month with two year agreement but then again I have never wanted to bring in an old phone and activate service.


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Her old plan was discontinued. To get more minutes, she had to go to a new plan. I was told that this required a commitment of 2 years. I told them she didn't want a new phone. 

If you are correct, then it sounds like the Verizon rep was either ill informed or motivated to get another 2 year sign up.

Good news on engadget yesterday is that the copyright office says that it is ok to unlock phones. So their lock in strategy may not be effective if the phones last longer than 2 years and there are more folks like my wife who don't want the latest and greatest features/ methods for the blood suckers to grab more cash out of our wallets.

==JT==


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## Justin Thyme (Mar 29, 2005)

Gai-jin said:


> Only if you want the promotional plans/features. If you're willing to give up the free N&W or M2M or whatever the promos of the month are and just take a basic plan, you don't have to do a new commitment.


Hey wait a minute. This can't just be a confused Verizon salesrep. How do you reconcile your statement with the statement on the Verizon site I linked to:


VerizonWireless Change plan page said:


> As a Verizon Wireless customer, you have the option to change your calling plan at any time.
> Change your plan to any qualifying plan or airtime promotion. You won't pay additional fees to change. Some plans require specific equipment. *Changes require a new 1- or 2-year agreement.* source


That's a blanket statement. You make a change, you have to commit to a year at least. No exception for basic plan/ own your own phone/ no frills/ no promotions.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

I suspect the important word in that paragraph is 'promotion'. I am not a verizon customer today, I switched to Cingular about 3 years back. At the time I was a customer, however, I know there was an option to change the plan without a new contract, you just lose a lot of the bonuses. 

I'd suggest you press harder when speaking to someone at verizon, as a company they are not known for being very upfront. Rather like how they made a big deal about 'pro-rating' the ETF fees for new customers, only to later reveal that is not at all true, they are only reducing the ETF a few dollars a month, not truely pro-rating it. Also, around here, they had a 19.95/mo plan you could get, but it hadn't been advertised for several years. The only way to get it was to ask, and many reps didn't know it existed.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Einselen said:


> With the $180 rebate and most expensive servce of $20/month that is 9 months and the $220 rebate that is 11 months. By that time might as well at least commit for a year as it make little sense to buy new HW and forfeit rebate. Existing hardware though of course is a different situation and doesn't fall in there.
> 
> Also question is if Tivo is to offer only a month by month service for forfeiting rebate and/or using existing hardware how much do you think it would be? In the example forfeiting rebate I don't think there is a way to do it at this point of time in which anyone would do it. Rebate is $220 for ST and the price is $220 or you can do 1 year service and rebate or 1 yr service and box from Tivo for $199 (or $240 if do month by month). Gee wonder what people would do. As far as existing boxes go I do not see Tivo going much lower then the monthly price for 1 year agreement, maybe $14.95/month but not any lower then that.


Just to be clear, I definitely wouldn't expect tivo to honor the rebate and a no contract rate. The rebate is essentially a subsidy on the box, and requires a service contract to recoup that monney for tivo. However, if I get a box from Ebay, tivo rewards, yard sale, or from retail and choose to decline the rebate, I should have an option to avoid the contract and higher rate.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Gai-jin said:


> Just to be clear, I definitely wouldn't expect tivo to honor the rebate and a no contract rate. The rebate is essentially a subsidy on the box, and requires a service contract to recoup that monney for tivo. However, if I get a box from Ebay, tivo rewards, yard sale, or from retail and choose to decline the rebate, I should have an option to avoid the contract and higher rate.


I think we had a miscommunication. I in no way meant to say you should get a rebate and have no contract. I was just showing it is pretty stupid now to go buy retail forfeit the rebate and only pay month by month with no contract unless you plan to have Tivo for a very very very short time and even then might as well do 1 year prepaid and a box.

I did ask though how much you think Tivo should charge month to month for a box you bring in yourself (such as one from yard sale, eBay, etc.?) I don't see them doing much lower then $14.95 and wouldn't be surprised if they did offer that but at $19.95.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Einselen said:


> I did ask though how much you think Tivo should charge month to month for a box you bring in yourself (such as one from yard sale, eBay, etc.?) I don't see them doing much lower then $14.95 and wouldn't be surprised if they did offer that but at $19.95.


I think 14.95 would be reasonable, though an option for a 1 year term and 12.95, similar to what was available last month, might work as well.

Or even perhaps a $x discount off of whatever term you choose to sign up. Since you can get a Tivo free with a 1 year agreement at 19.95, compared to previously buying the tivo and paying 12.95 for a year commitment, it would seem teh subsidy portion is about $7/mo on a 1 year term. I could also see them going with whatever the MSD rate for the length of contract you choose might be. Someone who signs up for a year is going to pay 13.95, someone who signs up for a 3 year can pay only $6.95. Still gives users an incentive for signing a longer contract, and avoids charging the user the jacked up subsidized rates.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

For "bring your own box" plan, I'd like to see the 3-year rate with only 1-year contract, and no 30-day money back period.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

c3 said:


> For "bring your own box" plan, I'd like to see the 3-year rate with only 1-year contract, and no 30-day money back period.


Sounds like a good plan, somehwat like Gai's. Also that would apply to either "first box" or MSD I am assuming as well. Maybe Tivo will implement that. If they do it may not be for a few months after they see how the current pricing structure is going.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

c3 said:


> For "bring your own box" plan, I'd like to see the 3-year rate with only 1-year contract, and no 30-day money back period.


Sounds reasonable to me.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Justin Thyme said:


> Hey wait a minute. This can't just be a confused Verizon salesrep. How do you reconcile your statement with the statement on the Verizon site I linked to:
> 
> That's a blanket statement. You make a change, you have to commit to a year at least. No exception for basic plan/ own your own phone/ no frills/ no promotions.


Looking into it, this appears to be a change in policy from verizon, and you don't have the option to change to a non-promo plan anymore. Again, info from verizon tends to vary by the call, but this would seem to match the experiences posted here.

They do however offer no contract service in the form of prepaid, which is basically the same thing we're talking about here. Pay for the equipment, full rate, sign up for monthly service, and cancel anytime.


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## ah30k (Jan 9, 2006)

c3 said:


> For "bring your own box" plan, I'd like to see the 3-year rate with only 1-year contract, and no 30-day money back period.


How can you have a three year plan with only a one year contract? There would be no way to enforce the three year part.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

ah30k said:


> How can you have a three year plan with only a one year contract? There would be no way to enforce the three year part.


He means you sign up for a 1 year contract, and get the same price as someone getting new hardware would on a 3 year contract. Hence doing away with the built in subsidy fees.


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## 1283 (Sep 8, 2000)

Not 3-year plan. 3-year *rate*.

EDIT: Gai-jin beat me to it.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

c3 said:


> For "bring your own box" plan, I'd like to see the 3-year rate with only 1-year contract, and no 30-day money back period.


Yep, this is what I'd like to see, too. And there is still a chance we'll see it. TiVo may be waiting until after the holidays just to keep the pricing as simple as possible until they see how it works.

But there is also a good chance they won't offer it at all. Since people still buy the boxes at retail for full price and then get a rebate some months later, it could just be too complicated for TiVo to track, or create too many CS problems: "No, no, I'm not going to file for the rebate. I just want the lower monthly service price." Then they file for the rebate a couple of months later...


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

ChuckyBox said:


> But there is also a good chance they won't offer it at all. Since people still buy the boxes at retail for full price and then get a rebate some months later, it could just be too complicated for TiVo to track, or create too many CS problems: "No, no, I'm not going to file for the rebate. I just want the lower monthly service price." Then they file for the rebate a couple of months later...


Well first of all anyone who would forfeit the rebate on a new box to get no committment would be stupid as the box is currently $220 and you can get a new box and 1 year service prepaid for $199. Even if you get a yr committment month to month that is only $240 so forfeiting the rebate would be plain stupid unless you get free service with an old box (which would not happen)

Second of all I don't think there would be an issue with the whole no contract vs. rebate option. You have to input TSN for the rebate and the rebate terms do state new activation so once the rebate is processed it would be rejected as they already have activated service on that box.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> Yep, this is what I'd like to see, too. And there is still a chance we'll see it. TiVo may be waiting until after the holidays just to keep the pricing as simple as possible until they see how it works.
> 
> But there is also a good chance they won't offer it at all. Since people still buy the boxes at retail for full price and then get a rebate some months later, it could just be too complicated for TiVo to track, or create too many CS problems: "No, no, I'm not going to file for the rebate. I just want the lower monthly service price." Then they file for the rebate a couple of months later...


Generally, you have to send in the rebate within 30 days. So if a customer doesn't want the rebate, sign them up on the 3 year plan, and have it default to a 1 year plan after 90 days. (assuming the rebate wasn't claimed.) Or, since the rebate is tied to active service, they must check the account for that much anyway, one extra detail of Rebate Eligible: Y/N shouldn't be too hard to check...


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

One problem with the "old box" clause is then you get back to online vs. retail not being the same and adding in more confusion again so I don't think Tivo will offer this option.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Einselen said:


> One problem with the "old box" clause is then you get back to online vs. retail not being the same and adding in more confusion again so I don't think Tivo will offer this option.


I disagree -- it doesn't matter if my old box was bought 2 years ago retail or 2 years ago from tivo.com, the results would be the same.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Gai-jin said:


> I disagree -- it doesn't matter if my old box was bought 2 years ago retail or 2 years ago from tivo.com, the results would be the same.


This is true however new subscribers would see that you can get serivce for the 3 yr rate with 1 year committment and then would ask again is it cheaper to buy retail and have the box. Can I buy the box, get the rebate and get the 1 year service, etc. and that is where I believe the confusion will come in. I just misworded it the first time and that is what I was trying to convey.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

I wouldn't generally expect this plan to be advertised, but rather to be the default plan offered when tivo detects a box which has been previously activated.


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## Einselen (Apr 25, 2006)

Gai-jin said:


> I wouldn't generally expect this plan to be advertised, but rather to be the default plan offered when tivo detects a box which has been previously activated.


Hmm so the plan would be only for boxes with previous activations. Adds a little to it now... THe software when type in TSN would know if that TSN was previously activated and if so give the option for the 3 yr price with a 1 yr commitment... I wonder if I should make the text bigger so Tivo can see that and possibly impliment it. Even if it was advertised (as you would want to have some word out about it so people reactivate those old boxes, cause some subscription on old boxes is better then no subscription on old boxes) then you can easily word it with previous activated Tivo, might confuse some, but I think that makes sense overall.


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

Einselen said:


> Hmm so the plan would be only for boxes with previous activations. Adds a little to it now... THe software when type in TSN would know if that TSN was previously activated and if so give the option for the 3 yr price with a 1 yr commitment... I wonder if I should make the text bigger so Tivo can see that and possibly impliment it. Even if it was advertised (as you would want to have some word out about it so people reactivate those old boxes, cause some subscription on old boxes is better then no subscription on old boxes) then you can easily word it with previous activated Tivo, might confuse some, but I think that makes sense overall.


I'm sure CSR's can likely look at a box's subscription history by TSN, and putting some kind of check in for the activation system to automate the process.

There are loads of possibilities. Any of these options would be better than continuing to demand subsidy fees for boxes that are not subsidized.


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## Bighouse (Sep 3, 2004)

Turtleboy said:


> I've never bought anything in my life thinking about the resale value, with the exception of my condos. I buy things to use for myself.
> 
> :shrug:


TOTALLY agree. In fact, I usually end up giving away stuff after I'm finished with it or upgraded. Ebay? Not for me.


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## ChuckyBox (Oct 3, 2005)

Gai-jin said:


> Generally, you have to send in the rebate within 30 days.


Not true. Rebates must simply be postmarked by the end of the rebate period, which can often be three or more months away.



> I wouldn't generally expect this plan to be advertised, but rather to be the default plan offered when tivo detects a box which has been previously activated.


This idea is based on the assumption that TiVo wants to give people the lowest price for which they are eligible. Most companies, TiVo included, want consumers to pay the most that they are willing to. TiVo can simply go with the current pricing scheme, and (once the online chatter dies down) quietly offer the 3-year rates to customers who make the effort to call in or threaten to cancel. (Much the way my cable company only offers me the better service deals when I call them and gripe about their price increases. If I don't, they are more than happy to take my money at the higher rate.)


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## Gai-jin (Feb 28, 2000)

ChuckyBox said:


> Not true. Rebates must simply be postmarked by the end of the rebate period, which can often be three or more months away.


Sorry, I'm used to most rebates requiring postmark within 30 days, I haven't done a tivo rebate for some time and didn't realize the extra leeway it gives. Still, easy enough to work around.


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## DrKaraoke (Mar 6, 2005)

samo said:


> Lets count my loses. $500 down a drain on S1, $300 down a drain on S2 - bad, very bad. Brings memories too. $1000 down a drain on beta VCR, $6000 down a drain on my first 286, $3000 down a drain on my first laser printer, $2000 down a drain on camcorder.... I have to stop here because I'm about to start remembering how much I spent on my wife and kids.


You still had money to spend on the wife and kids?!?  
LOL


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## tenthplanet (Mar 5, 2004)

Bighouse said:


> TOTALLY agree. In fact, I usually end up giving away stuff after I'm finished with it or upgraded. Ebay? Not for me.


 I totally agree. Give it away to someone who can and will use it and if you can't find it a new home then properly recycle it.


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## xian (Feb 15, 2005)

To all saying their Tivo is old and worth <$0.....

I'll gladly buy it from you for $10 + shipping.  Thats way more than <$0.

Just need it to be functional.


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## Adam1115 (Dec 15, 2003)

It's always weird to me when people start replying to stuff in threads that haven't had a post in over a month.

You end up having to re-read 3 pages of repllies to see what this is even about!


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